333. Konstantin Kisin and the Counter-Woke Revolution
Summary
Constantine Kissin is a Russian-British satirist, social commentator, author, and podcast host. He has written for publications such as Quillette and the Daily Telegraph, and his book, An Immigrant s Love Letter to the West, is a Sunday Times bestseller. Kissin has been a popular guest on Good Morning Britain, and has amassed over 100 million views for arguing against woke culture during a filmed recent Oxford Union debate. In this episode, we discuss: Why did have a hit? How did it become such a phenomenon? What s going on in the world and why it s so important? Why is it important to have a positive vision of the future? And why is it so important to challenge the assumptions and biases that keep us stuck in the old ways of thinking? All this and more on this episode of the podcast, Trigonometry. Subscribe to the podcast and stay tuned for more episodes in the coming weeks. If you like what you hear, please HIT SUBSCRIBE on Apple Podcasts, or wherever else you get your news. And don t forget to leave us a five star rating and review! We re listening to you! Thank you for listening! - Dr. Jordan B. Peterson - The Jordan Peterson Project - Thank you, Dr. B. P. Peterson, and I hope you re having a wonderful day. - MJKissin - Alyssa K. ( ) (p. ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) . (P. ( , . etc) ( ( // & P. & , etc) ) - ( __ ) & B. ( ), [ # { ), ) ) & ( ) & ( & C) ( ) , ) Thank you ( ) - Thank You, Thank You ( ) # ( ] (VAR ( ) Thank You Thank You! ) and ( ) AND ( ) and : ( # ) AND + AND ( # ) , ( ) ) & ( ), ( ) + (AFFTERTERTERING ( ) = OR ( ) OR ... ) + ( ) or ( ) : And
Transcript
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Hello everyone watching and listening on YouTube and associated platforms.
00:01:13.140
I'm speaking today with Constantine Kissin, who's a Russian-British satirist, social commentator, author, and podcast host, Trigonometry.
00:01:21.680
He has written for publications such as Quillette and the Daily Telegraph, and his book, An Immigrant's Love Letter to the West, is a Sunday Times bestseller.
00:01:31.820
Kissin has been a popular guest on Good Morning Britain, and has amassed over 100 million views for arguing against woke culture during a filmed recent Oxford Union debate.
00:01:43.860
As I said, he's also the co-host of the podcast Trigonometry, alongside Francis Foster.
00:01:50.820
Together, they have garnered over 400,000 subscribers, having in-depth discussions that centre on support for free speech in our society.
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Hello, Mr. Kissin. It's good to see you today. I'm looking forward to our conversation.
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We've talked a little bit before on Trigonometry, and have we met in person?
00:02:10.060
A couple of times, yeah. I feel honoured that you didn't remember me. Thanks, Jordan.
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Yeah, well, my memory has its problems, and I meet so many people virtually.
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Yes, well, it's hard, too, when you meet people virtually. It's hard to remember if you met them virtually, or if you met them in person.
00:02:27.780
And they're thicker and taller in person, but other than that, it's, you know, a similar experience.
00:02:33.920
So, you were just at the Oxford Union, and you seem to have managed something approximating a hit, as far as those things go.
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And so, what do you think you did right, and why did what you do, what you did, have the cultural impact it has had?
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How many people, you know how many people have watched that so far?
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It's very difficult to measure, because it goes into private telegram channels, WhatsApp groups, etc.
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But I'm guessing somewhere between 100 and 200 million at this point.
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And in terms of why I think it got the resonance that it did, I think there are a few factors.
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I think the first one is something that you actually discussed with Joe Rogan recently, which is the world's crying out for a positive vision of the future.
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Those of us who spend a lot of time trying to work out what this craziness was happening in the West, and why it was happening,
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we had to do it from a position of critique and criticism, and we've spent five years in our case on trigonometry doing that, and you started earlier.
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But now I think the world is in a position where it's looking for a positive message, and that is actually one of the things that I tried to do.
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I tried to persuade people who were there at the Oxford Union at that debate.
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And I said to them, look, I don't want to talk to those of you who already agree with me.
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I'm more interested in talking to those of you who may be woke.
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That was the debate I was invited to participate in.
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And the second part of it, Jordan, and again, I think this is something you'll be well aware of.
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We live in a society in which adults are afraid to tell children what they need to hear.
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And so I think a lot of people resonated with the fact that this was somebody who was an adult standing up in front of young people
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and challenging them to be better as opposed to either pandering to their preconceived beliefs and biases
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So I think those two things combined, plus a rational argument, a few jokes, you throw that in the mix and you've got yourself a good speech.
00:04:25.140
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00:06:05.840
Well, I think one of the things that we could talk about productively on the positive vision front are the comments.
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We could elaborate on the comments you made in relationship to absolute privation and poverty.
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And so many people who are watching and listening might not be aware, but there was plenty of doom saying in the 1960s with regards to the population catastrophe and prognostications on the part of people like Paul Ehrlich, most famously, who wrote the Population Bomb, that by the year 2000, we'd be out of all our primary resources and everyone would be starving.
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In fact, primary resources became more plentiful and less expensive.
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And we have twice as many people on the planet as he was paranoid about in the year 2000.
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And while that's happened, everyone, virtually everyone, it's 7 billion out of 8 billion people on the planet now have basic accesses, have access to basic resources.
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And so we've all got richer and there's a hell of a lot more of us.
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Now, the apocalyptic moralists who want to save the planet, let's say, still are putting forward the story that what we're doing is not, quote, sustainable, that we need five Earths to feed everyone on the planet at the level that the West currently enjoys.
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And their, what would you call, recipe for future progress is a limits to growth model.
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And the problem with the limits to growth model is, well, first of all, it's hypocritical because the people who are proposing it aren't going to be the people who are suffering from it.
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And second, it's wrong technically because, and I think you did a good job of pointing this out in the Oxford speech, poor people can't care about long-term sustainability and iterability.
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They're so busy scrabbling in the dirt for their next meal, trying to get fresh water, access to basic hygiene facilities, the next meal, that anything approximating a medium to long-term vision is out of their reach.
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And so they sacrifice the future to the present so they can survive.
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But if you get people up to about $5,000 per year in gross domestic productivity per capita, they immediately start to take a longer view.
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And I figured this out about 15 years ago when I was perversely working on the UN Sustainable Development Goals, trying to make them less socialist and destructive than they were.
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And it looked to me like we could have our cake and eat it too, that the best policy possible to produce a, quote, sustainable planet would be the one that ameliorates poverty, especially on the energy front, as rapidly as possible.
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And look, I'm by no means a climate expert, but even as just an outside observer, someone whose primary job is podcaster and satirist,
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I can see that a lot of the narratives that we have, they seem to have more in common with a religious worldview or a cult-like worldview than they do with a practical attempt to solve the real problems that we face.
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And I was born in the Soviet Union, and I've lived all over the world in many poor countries.
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So, you know, I don't have the, you know, we talk so much about privilege nowadays in our society, Jordan.
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We've got male privilege and white privilege and all sorts of other privilege.
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The main privilege that we don't talk about is Western privilege.
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And it takes Western privilege to fail to understand that what you just said, which is the poor people don't care about, quote, unquote, saving the planet because they've got more immediate priorities.
00:10:03.040
And so even if you accept the entirety of the climate change argument, and this is the point that I made in the speech, whining about it or reducing consumption in Britain,
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which produces 1% of global carbon emissions and is responsible for another 1%, so in total 2%, it makes no difference.
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It will not solve the problem when China and India are busy trying to get their people to avoid starving to death.
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And so what I see is a kind of doomsday cult that seems to have taken over, and politically we seem to be pandering to that instead of dealing with the real challenges of the world.
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And by the way, it clearly has impact all over the place.
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I mean, if you look at what happened in Germany, Germany, for purely political and ideological reasons, shut down its nuclear power stations.
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It's now a paid South Africa, and Michael Schellenberger covered this on his Substack, paid South Africa to not use coal.
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Now they import coal back from South Africa and burn it.
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And also, of course, they made themselves extremely dependent on Russian gas at the time, which I hope the war in Ukraine is something we get to get on to talking about.
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Well, yeah, so what you get in Germany is the worst, and for all those people who are watching and listening who might have environmental concerns,
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look, if you have environmental concerns, one of your goals is, in principle, to improve the environment.
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Now, if you implement a set of policies that make energy five times as expensive, which is what's happened in Germany,
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and you improve things on the pollution front, at least you could say, well, you know, energy is much more expensive,
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and that's pretty hard on the poor people, but look, we've accomplished one of our own goals.
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And, you know, you'd have to contend seriously with an opponent who put forward an argument like that.
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But if the reality on the ground is, well, we made energy five times as expensive,
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we've made ourselves hyper-reliant on the Russians and a single point of failure on the energy front,
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and we're producing far more pollution, particularly in relationship to coal burning,
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and the grid is much less reliable than it used to be.
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It's like, well, you didn't just fail according to my definition of failure.
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You failed according to your definition of failure.
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And so how in the world is that even possibly justified?
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And then I think we get into the religious realm here at that point.
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And so Alex Epstein has done a pretty good job of laying this out.
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But I like Lomberg on the IPCC front, and we'll get back to that, you know,
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accepting the idea that there will be something like two degrees of climate change in the next hundred years
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But Epstein has pointed out in his new book, Fossil Fuel Future,
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he laid out something I'd also investigated in my Maps of Meaning book,
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It's an Earth-worshipping metaphysic, and it is a religious in its implicit structure.
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And the idea is that the planet is a hapless, fragile virgin
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threatened by a rapacious, consuming, tyrannical giant in that society,
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and that the individual is a parasitical predator riding the back of that rapacious monster.
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And it's religious because it's a fundamental narrative that frames everything else.
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And it also partakes of the archetypal underlying structure that makes religious stories religious.
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And so you could conjure up an opposite story, right?
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And this would flesh out the religious landscape.
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The opposite story would be nature is a hideous, gorgon-like demon
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who's hell-bent at every aspect to freeze us into terror and devour us.
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It's the walls of the walled garden that protects us from the absolute ravages of nature.
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And the human being is a heroic enterpriser bent on entering into a relationship with the planet
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and with culture that approximates something like environmental stewardship.
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Now, it casts nature into disrepute and probably elevates culture too unidimensionally.
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But you need both sides of that picture in order to have a complete picture of the world.
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But so kids are being offered an incomplete religious view of the world that's focused on nature as hapless virgin.
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And, Constantine, I think this has to do with the problem that the conservatives and the liberals,
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for that matter, real liberals, haven't been able to come up with a promising vision.
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is that while adolescents enter this period that Jean Piaget called the messianic,
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now not everyone gets to that point, but relatively cognitively sophisticated kids do.
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This is also when you want to induct kids into the armed forces if you actually want to manage it effectively.
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It's really when their final touches of their enculturation occur.
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It's when their prefrontal cortexes prune themselves most thoroughly.
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That happens also between the ages of 2 and 4, but it happens between 16 and 20.
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Anyways, Piaget noted that people of that age, cross-culturally,
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have a desire to identify with a purpose that transcends themselves.
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And there's something heroic about it, because they actually do want to look outside themselves.
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And then, you know, the radical, envious lefties come along and say,
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well, all you have to do is wave a placard at an oil company,
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and, you know, standing next shoulder to shoulder with the messiah himself.
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And that's pretty damn appalling, and it's certainly not true.
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But in the absence of an alternative vision, then people are going to gravitate towards that, as they do.
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And so you can't blame, you can't exactly blame young people for that, even though it's tempting.
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Now, and then there's a narcissistic element, too.
00:16:40.080
So one of the things I really like about Bjorn Lomborg, you know, he accepts the IPCC climate projections,
00:16:49.280
He's attempted to model that as decrement GDP production.
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So he figures, given current trends, we'll be 400% richer by the year 2100,
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but then you can knock off some percentage of that because of the costs of climate change.
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I think he basically concludes we'll be like 350% richer instead of 400%.
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And he's pointed out very clearly, too, that even in the IPCC reports themselves, there's no looming apocalypse.
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And the idea that there's a scientific consensus about the apocalypse, that's a lie.
00:17:30.960
Now, I think the reason people want to fall for it is because we also like to accrue to ourselves unearned moral stature.
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And if we can get moral stature by waving a placard while we're complaining about an oil company while driving to the protest,
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then that's a lot easier than doing all the hard work that would be necessary to actually, you know,
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start a family and operate properly in a community and maybe join a church or join a political party
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and actually tromp through the difficult process of trying to figure out how to do something concrete and real
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And so this woke enterprise is extremely attractive to narcissists.
00:18:16.900
And that doesn't mean they're all narcissists, but it's extremely attractive to narcissists.
00:18:21.160
And so that's like a panoply of problems, all of which we're facing simultaneously.
00:18:27.140
Well, Jordan, let me pick up on a couple of those points.
00:18:30.880
So, first of all, in terms of this religious worldview, I think one of the other things that's so appealing about it
00:18:40.380
The idea that we're living in some kind of unique moment in human history when the world's about to be destroyed,
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whether that's true or not, by the way, is incredibly appealing.
00:18:49.040
That is something that gives your life meaning and purpose, even if your life has no meaning and purpose.
00:18:54.320
And the thing with this woke ideology is that, and this is something I kind of started to notice,
00:18:59.640
you know, my journey into this discussion in general was through comedy.
00:19:05.780
And in 2015, 2016 in particular, I started to look around, and I just saw a lot of people who seemed for some reason to suddenly hate themselves.
00:19:16.780
You spend most of your time backstage listening to other comedians.
00:19:19.900
And out of the blue, you'd start getting these kids in their 20s going on stage and going,
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well, I'm a white guy, therefore, blah, blah, blah.
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And then they'd do a bunch of self-deprecating jokes, the premise of which was, because they were white, they were evil.
00:19:34.320
And this ideology, I think, is fundamentally about self-hate.
00:19:37.960
And if you hate yourself, well, why wouldn't you crave the punishment that you therefore deserve, right?
00:19:43.700
And I think the doomsday narrative maps so well onto Wokeness for that reason as well.
00:19:50.000
We need a place, symbolically speaking, we need a place to put hell, and we need a place to put the apocalypse.
00:19:57.420
And the reason we need a place to put the apocalypse is because the human vision is apocalyptic.
00:20:03.460
And the reason for that is that we all die, right?
00:20:06.680
Everything comes to a cataclysmic halt for everyone.
00:20:13.000
And it could not only happen to you, it could happen to you and everyone you love.
00:20:18.660
And that sort of thing has happened, and it definitely always threatens.
00:20:23.940
And so one of our existential problems is that we always have to face the apocalypse.
00:20:28.340
And the way that's been handled in the symbolic landscape of Christianity is that the apocalypse is a distant occurrence in a heavenly place.
00:20:41.420
But it's turned into a psychological reality or a spiritual reality, an ever-present spiritual reality,
00:20:48.620
instead of being necessarily played out in the here and now.
00:20:53.020
But then there's a place for it, and that's appropriate because there should be a place for it.
00:20:56.920
And we're also tilted as information processes very hard to the overweighting of negative information.
00:21:04.720
And the reason for that, I would say, is, well, you can only be so happy, but you can be really, really in pain and then dead.
00:21:13.320
And so you're more sensitive to a unit of threat than you are motivated by a unit of pleasure.
00:21:21.480
And so then we also have to contend with the fact that we're tilted towards hyper-processing negative information.
00:21:28.060
And then on the privilege front, this is a really complicated one.
00:21:33.600
I think that some of the guilt that the woke types are capitalizing on and also genuinely experiencing
00:21:39.500
is a consequence of the felt need for some true atonement.
00:21:48.300
And so, you know, if you live in the West, you're in the top 1% by global and historical standards.
00:21:57.160
And then you have to contend with the fact that, well, you didn't really earn that,
00:22:03.500
not to some degree, because your pathway forward is going to be proportionate in its success to your work.
00:22:12.180
But, you know, you're born and there are highways and there are automobiles and there's an electrical grid.
00:22:18.280
And you have this wealth that's offered to you.
00:22:21.380
And then you might say, well, that's unearned privilege.
00:22:27.060
And then the question emerges, well, what should you do about that?
00:22:31.000
And one answer is to flagellate yourself and to feel guilty,
00:22:34.600
because there are people out there who weren't arbitrarily rewarded to the same degree you were.
00:22:44.500
And the other solution is to do whatever you can to earn the gifts you've been given,
00:22:57.580
And to say, well, my goal is to justify by my actions the privileges and opportunities I have been granted.
00:23:06.360
And then to work hard to extend those to the degree that's possible to the people around me and to others.
00:23:17.260
And so, you know, if you're not living a life that's as moral as you are privileged,
00:23:23.120
you're going to lay yourself open on the guilt front.
00:23:26.180
And then the woke ideologues are going to tear a strip off you.
00:23:28.980
And certainly these kids that you've observed flagellating themselves for their privilege,
00:23:36.080
they don't know how to atone for the fact that there is an unequal distribution of talents.
00:23:41.900
And that seems to be built into the cosmic structure.
00:23:44.980
Well, that's why I felt it was so important that someone told them that.
00:23:48.120
And everything you said, particularly about how to respond to privilege,
00:23:54.280
it resonates with me so much because I've been, you know, my family has been destitute.
00:24:02.400
I've also been someone who slept on the street for weeks.
00:24:07.160
And what I learned from all of those experiences is that, like you said,
00:24:11.440
you have to make the most of it and then extend that opportunity to other people.
00:24:19.000
And there's no other way if you want to be constructive.
00:24:22.100
But let's come back to your point about a positive vision for the future
00:24:28.540
I think one of the reasons is that inevitably young people do need to rebel against something.
00:24:32.980
And conservatives instinctively want to suppress all rebellion because they want to avoid change.
00:24:38.660
And that's why as someone who's kind of some, I call myself politically non-binary,
00:24:42.660
that's why I'm excited about talking about this political vision and positive,
00:24:47.920
not political, a positive vision of the future, because I think that's what's needed.
00:24:51.860
And I don't think the anti-woke position, which a lot of us have had to engage in for some time,
00:24:58.260
is going to be the answer because you have to have something that people buy into.
00:25:02.740
And it can't be normative in the way that conservatives often want it to be.
00:25:12.260
What they want is something that allows them to channel their rebellion into something heroic
00:25:16.940
and productive, as you said, which is why I think showing young people the way out of wokeness
00:25:24.120
through what I talked about in the speech and what you and I just talked about,
00:25:30.800
And I think you probably know my friend Melissa Chen.
00:25:34.700
She tweeted something about this years ago that I thought was so spot on.
00:25:38.520
She said, you cannot remain woke if you build anything, whether that's a business, whether
00:25:46.920
And that's why I challenged these kids at the Oxford Union and the audience who were
00:25:50.880
watching, of course, to build and create things.
00:25:53.200
Because the moment you start, you suddenly find out that, hey, just whining about stuff
00:25:59.160
And when you get down to the business of doing things, turns out there's a reason that things
00:26:04.720
There's a reason things don't work quite the way you'd like them to, because reality suddenly
00:26:11.520
And so that's why I think it's so important to give kids and young people a path to doing
00:26:16.200
things, because it's only when you're doing things that you start to realize the limitations.
00:26:20.440
And, you know, I'm a huge fan of Thomas Sowell, and this is one of his things that he always
00:26:26.100
says, that there are no solutions, only trade-offs.
00:26:29.720
And you only learn this as a young person by the experience of doing stuff.
00:26:33.920
Because when you're young, you come at the world and you go, well, the world isn't perfect.
00:26:40.260
And no one's explained to you, and you probably didn't listen if they tried to explain to you.
00:26:50.100
And all you can do is tinker at the edges to try and improve it.
00:26:53.140
So one of the things I've noticed on my tour, one of the things that's perplexed me, let's say,
00:26:59.620
is that I wrote these books that are full of rules.
00:27:03.360
And you might think that that would turn people off for the reasons that you just described,
00:27:08.860
young people being turned off by, let's call it conservative moralizing.
00:27:24.520
But you can also understand why young people would chafe against that.
00:27:28.460
Because, well, why should they be certain that doing their duty in exactly the same manner
00:27:34.180
that duplicates the past is the best pathway forward?
00:27:39.280
And there are inadequacies of the past that need to be rectified.
00:27:42.820
So the conservatives stumble in relationship to establishing a bridge to young people by
00:27:52.160
And the more evangelical types of, say, fundamental Christians fall into the same problem.
00:27:58.040
Now, one of the things I've noticed, and this has been very, very cool, and I've really
00:28:01.780
tested this in hundreds of venues, is I usually sometime in one of my lectures, in my lectures,
00:28:08.640
talk about the relationship, the necessity of finding meaning as the antithesis of suffering,
00:28:17.040
Because the quest for meaning becomes most compelling when you're simultaneously suffering
00:28:26.800
That's when the arrow finds its mark, let's say.
00:28:32.740
And I walk people through a thought exercise, I suppose, is, well, what do you have when you're
00:28:42.900
And you might say, well, you have the work that you're still capable of doing and the fruits
00:28:48.640
of your labor that might offer you some security.
00:28:51.980
You have whatever creative enterprises you might be able to engage in that still contain
00:29:00.140
Then you have your intimate relationship and the person who might be caring for you while
00:29:10.340
And then on the abstract end, maybe you have beauty and truth and justice and the noble
00:29:16.560
But then you might ask yourself, well, how do you have the armament of work and creative
00:29:26.440
And the answer to that is that's in precise proportion to the amount of responsibility
00:29:30.140
you've taken for developing those relationships and those abilities.
00:29:33.900
And so there's a clear pathway between the voluntary adoption of responsibility and the meaning
00:29:41.740
And that's a much better enticement to participation for young people than a kind of finger-wagging
00:29:49.420
top-down morality, which is you must behave this way, you know, or you're no good.
00:29:54.760
And even though, as I said, there's some truth in that, it's not an invitational vision.
00:30:01.280
And I think that there's a way to summarize that very neatly, Jordan, which is what I know
00:30:06.620
would work for me, which is to say, there are things that you want.
00:30:12.900
And if you want those things, this is what you need to do.
00:30:20.100
But if you want to achieve these outcomes that you care about, then you are going to
00:30:26.040
And I'm not telling you which outcomes you should pursue necessarily.
00:30:29.140
But the way to get there isn't going to be to glue yourself to a road to stop in ambulance,
00:30:33.280
get into a hospital, which is what these Extinction Rebellion people do here in the
00:30:37.780
And I think that once people, young people are on that path, we don't get to control
00:30:43.000
the art and the culture that they're going to create.
00:30:45.680
That is their path and that is their duty and that is their job to do.
00:30:49.600
But if they are doing it from a place of constructive taking on responsibility, as you say, putting
00:30:55.560
in the effort, building and creating things for the future, then I think that is part of
00:31:01.300
Because as you say, I think we live in a society particularly now, you know, I'm not a religious
00:31:06.140
person, but it's clear to me that with the death of God, you end up in a position where
00:31:12.320
And of course, you've got all sorts of other economic disincentives for people to have
00:31:21.420
I myself, you know, I just turned 40 and we had our first child only a year ago, less
00:31:26.580
So a lot of young people are in that position now and it's having that experience that changes
00:31:36.940
It also forces you to look at the world in a different way.
00:31:42.700
And, you know, talking about family is difficult because again, you get to the normative position
00:31:47.960
where it's like you must have children, which is not what I'm saying at all.
00:31:51.720
But again, I think if you start from the incentive point of view, my experience of life is that
00:31:57.000
people respond first and foremost to the incentives that are in front of them.
00:32:00.340
And if you want, if you lack meaning, if you don't know what to do with your life, then
00:32:04.200
finding an intimate partner and having a family is going to be a big part of that, in addition
00:32:11.660
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So I had lots of clients and students who would come to me who were in search of a meaningful
00:33:26.720
pathway forward, who said, well, I don't know what to do.
00:33:30.680
And I would say, well, what do you want for your life?
00:33:42.960
That's a big mistake because all you do is get older and weaker and you withdraw more.
00:33:47.820
And so even if you don't know what to do, pursuing nothing is a very bad idea.
00:33:53.500
You have no hope then because hope comes from pursuit.
00:33:56.500
And you're anxious because you need to specify a path.
00:34:00.940
So you have no hope and you're anxious if you do nothing.
00:34:07.700
And I don't think that's shocking to people, but it's worth laying it out.
00:34:15.260
Well, you're not a nihilist or possessed by that, except probably sporadically.
00:34:21.300
So then the next proposition was something like this.
00:34:27.480
So why don't we just look and see what other people do that seems to work?
00:34:32.340
And maybe you don't have to do any of these things or all of these things.
00:34:36.320
But if you don't know where to start, here's a good place to start.
00:34:41.000
And this is also something conservatives can offer.
00:34:44.040
It's like, well, here's the basic template for a reasonably tolerable life.
00:35:03.060
Now, you might not, but probably you do, even if you think you don't.
00:35:07.880
And so you might be one of those exceptions, but don't assume that to begin with,
00:35:12.160
because that's an uncomfortable place to be if it's true.
00:35:14.800
Now, maybe you're a radically creative genius like Leonardo da Vinci or Picasso,
00:35:20.780
and you're so idiosyncratic that you can't bind yourself to any one person.
00:35:25.040
But, you know, they were one in a billion, and probably you're not.
00:35:29.500
Now, maybe you are, but that's a whole different kettle of fish.
00:35:35.860
Parents, you want to have a relationship with them.
00:35:41.340
That's the best relationship you're ever going to have if you're fortunate enough to engage in it.
00:35:45.540
And so you probably need a vision for that of some sort.
00:35:52.620
You need a job or a career, because otherwise you die.
00:35:59.320
That's a bad outcome, unless that's what you're after.
00:36:03.380
You should regulate your behavior in relationship to temptations,
00:36:09.760
because short-term impulsive hedonic gratification doesn't play out well across time,
00:36:17.040
So that's not a good recipe for long-term progress into the future.
00:36:24.420
You should think hard about doing something on the civic front.
00:36:29.060
You should take care of yourself mentally and physically.
00:36:35.180
because there's probably something you could learn and get better at,
00:36:42.360
And you should figure out how to make productive,
00:36:44.600
generous use of the time you have when you're not working.
00:36:51.520
because it fleshes out the generic landscape of human striving.
00:36:57.140
And it's a good place to start if you don't know where to start.
00:37:00.400
You could start with one of those things and move towards it,
00:37:09.960
if you are failing on all eight of those fronts,
00:37:24.960
Here's the responsibility you can find in meaning.
00:37:29.800
something idiosyncratic and unique to yourself.
00:37:51.440
the probability that they'll drop out of university
00:38:34.740
You know, you described yourself as not religious.
00:38:38.720
And so, but you're concerned about false religions, right?
00:39:03.460
and to the individuals who participate in them,
00:39:28.340
Because even if you participate in wokeness fully
00:39:38.120
and the sins of the world rest upon my shoulders,
00:40:38.220
that there are clearly pathological forms of belief
00:41:19.940
He said he really regarded the Catholic confession
00:41:54.140
Certainly that crushes people who are depressed.
00:42:05.660
because they watch themselves do something terrible.
00:42:50.880
And you have to go do these rituals of atonement.
00:42:59.500
And you're going to go out and be a fool again,
00:43:39.480
I can't make myself believe things I don't believe, yeah.
00:43:43.160
So that's like that suspension of belief, right?
01:20:19.940
life only has the meaning that I give to it and
01:20:44.000
open yourself up to an intuition and tell me if
01:23:32.120
you need that relationship with the vertical and
01:23:35.340
so except the central who run the structure that
01:23:48.840
that's only a consequence of tradition like look
01:23:51.040
in the Jewish writings you've got two sources of
01:24:28.940
to that but but it does reflect this underlying
01:24:31.480
problem but you've already said in yourself you
01:24:55.820
would say that to the degree that that intuition
01:25:07.340
possible manner so it's not purely idiosyncratic
01:25:13.280
logos its own internal logic if if the it may be
01:25:20.020
what Socrates did Socrates voice which is to say
01:25:26.700
victim to the mob right and God help us from that
01:25:30.840
eventuality but that may happen upon occasion but
01:25:35.420
it's still the case that if that voice of intuition is
01:25:38.280
deep when it rises within you it's going to rise up
01:25:46.240
integration with the social community and the social
01:25:49.240
community's improvement at least you better hope that
01:25:53.920
that's the case right but that all those things are to
01:25:58.940
my benefit and also even the Socrates example I mean
01:26:02.420
I I think you and I both you to a much greater extent have
01:26:08.040
offered ourselves up a sacrificial uh for for the
01:26:12.300
purposes of combating this bad religion that we talked about
01:26:15.180
earlier but even that to me just seems that it's easier to
01:26:20.140
explain with something as simple as principles that have been
01:26:22.820
inculcated in me by my life experience and by family so as
01:26:28.080
someone who's descended from uh Soviet dissidents who spent
01:26:32.500
plenty of time in the gulag I'm not prepared uh to say that a
01:26:36.960
male teacher who has gigantic breasts is a woman uh because the
01:26:41.260
concept of truth that is more valuable to me than my reputation
01:26:45.500
or career and whatever else right so again I I don't know that
01:26:50.040
the the inclusion of the divine is necessary for those things to
01:26:54.080
be explained okay that okay great great okay so so I think
01:26:57.820
there's a technical answer to that question too so there's a
01:27:01.500
there's a scene in the gospels where you know the Pharisees and
01:27:05.280
the uh scribes so they're the woke bureaucrats really in many
01:27:09.940
ways they're trying to trap christ all the time because they think he's
01:27:13.340
dangerous and they'd like to nail him for heresy and so they get a
01:27:18.300
lawyer to come up to him and say uh master which you you you you say you
01:27:23.420
abide by the commandments uh which of them is the greatest and
01:27:27.660
here's the trick the trick is well no matter what christ says they're
01:27:32.060
going to nail him because if he makes any one commandment
01:27:34.900
superordinate to the others then he denigrates the others and they can go
01:27:38.940
after him on that front so they really put him on the spot
01:27:42.320
and he says something that refers back to this principle of mount sinai this idea
01:27:48.160
of a horizontal and a vertical axis right and he says um you should love god
01:27:55.060
with all your with all your heart and with all your mind
01:27:57.840
and you should love other people as you love yourself
01:28:02.160
and so and then he says and those that's the meta principle upon which all the commandments rest
01:28:08.940
and so it's an amazing sleight of hand because he answers the question but he doesn't allow himself
01:28:15.580
to be trapped and what he says is and this is akin to what you just laid out you said well
01:28:20.920
i don't need faith in a religious structure because i can abide by these principles and so we
01:28:25.960
can think of the principles as your version of the ten commandments maybe there's 20 of them i don't
01:28:31.560
know how many there are but and they're derived from your own experience and i think and the experience
01:28:35.940
of your family but then you might think let's assume for a moment that all those principles are
01:28:42.420
good and so we're assuming that there's a commonality across the principles and that commonality is that
01:28:50.980
which i allows them to be categorized as good okay and then the question would be well what's the
01:28:57.700
underlying meta principle that unites them as good and that's exactly the question that christ is trying
01:29:04.620
to answer so he says well you want to be oriented towards the highest good conceivable you want to be
01:29:10.780
open to that and so that would be something like making the decision in your life that you were going
01:29:16.260
to strive towards whatever was good whatever that is right just just to make that the initial
01:29:22.700
proposition and then you were going to treat other people as if they were as valuable as you are and vice
01:29:28.400
versa and that that's the underlying two-dimensional two dimensions of the principle that gives rise to
01:29:35.840
let's say all necessary commandments and then i would say that the spirit that puts god above all
01:29:45.220
else puts the divine above all else and that unites us with other people that is what the monotheistic
01:29:52.580
tendency tilts towards portraying psychologically it's an attempt to flesh out what that is that's how
01:29:59.960
it looks to me fair enough so you know like it are you the question is i think constantine the
01:30:06.340
question is pretty simple if your principles are coherent then there's a meta principle that unites
01:30:14.160
them and then the fundamental religious question would be well what is that meta principle and how do
01:30:20.640
you how do you conduct yourself in relationship to it that makes sense which is why it puts it puts in
01:30:28.400
question the very nature of morality and where it comes from i understand that um but i certainly
01:30:33.360
wouldn't make the claim that my principles are coherent i don't know that they are uh i've i it's
01:30:40.080
something that i i try to follow based on like i said values passed down by family and probably
01:30:46.400
a judeo-christian in origin at one point um so i don't have a good answer for you
01:30:52.140
hey it's it's not an easy thing to to like spontaneously generate up an answer for but i
01:30:58.960
would also say you know you said you're not sure your principles are coherent and i would say well
01:31:03.980
of course they're not to some degree right because no one is characterized by a state of perfect
01:31:12.160
coherence i think that would be paradisal in in the most literal sense to have that and i think now and
01:31:18.600
then we snap into a coherence and when that happens well you have kids now don't you i've got
01:31:24.960
one so far we've got one okay so so you you made an allusion to that before and so i think that one
01:31:31.780
of the things that having children does is it opens you up to a kind of paradisal coherence upon occasion
01:31:39.420
because you now love someone certainly i would say if you have any sense more than you love yourself
01:31:47.040
you value that person more you in that you'd sacrifice yourself for them yes um and i would
01:31:53.480
say that in that depth of love you get a glimpse of what that coherence could be you know because
01:31:59.640
and you know that because you also alluded to the fact that when you had a child that also compelled
01:32:05.300
you to take another step forward on the maturation front yes right which which which is exactly of
01:32:11.400
course what happens to you if you have a child if you aren't a narcissist right to the damn core is that
01:32:16.020
you do you shed a lot of immaturity and you become a lot more coherent and i think that does reveal
01:32:22.760
itself in love i really believe that very interesting today we went pretty damn deep down the rabbit hole
01:32:30.700
on the religious front with constantine but that makes sense because it's what's lurking underneath your
01:32:35.660
speech at oxford you know it's because you're making the case you're making the case essentially that
01:32:41.500
whatever this woke enterprise is has a quasi religious structure and it doesn't look like
01:32:47.480
it's doing the job well no and you're implying too that we need a vision to replace it and it has to be
01:32:54.960
an invitational a positive invitational vision it can't just be us shaking our fingers at the woke
01:33:00.660
types and saying you guys are going off the deep end it's like because they can just say well oh wise
01:33:06.520
conservatives where do you think the shallow end is and if we say well it's not where you're pointing
01:33:12.180
yeah fair enough but that's a pretty there is another reason why that is a bad strategy in my opinion
01:33:19.340
jordan by the way we had to do that we had to understand what was going on we had to articulate
01:33:26.220
what was going on we had to explain to ourselves and to the broader public what the problem was and
01:33:31.660
what was happening that was necessary so i don't apologize or criticize or or any of that those of
01:33:39.120
us who've who've pushed back against this and yes you're right a positive vision is needed so that we
01:33:45.000
can say to people well this is where you should put your energies but there's also another reason which
01:33:48.840
is that the process of pointing the finger at the woke and saying you are becoming deranged
01:33:55.560
makes you deranged and you can see that very clearly as you look around at anti-woke people now
01:34:01.300
um i i say this often now you'll be familiar with the online meme of i support the current thing which
01:34:07.820
is what all the non-mainstream people use to sort of make fun of of the mainstream people who
01:34:13.460
jump from cause to cause to cause you know the flavor of the month whatever but i see very clearly now
01:34:20.180
that there is the the exact and opposite reaction happening where a portion of the anti-woke or the
01:34:27.300
right or whatever you want to call them have become i oppose the current thing and it is enough for them
01:34:32.640
that the mainstream media or the corporate media or whatever are saying something to believe the exact
01:34:37.960
opposite without doing any research or any critical thinking applied whatsoever and we should be very
01:34:43.980
concerned about that in my opinion as much as we've been concerned about the woke stuff so the positive
01:34:49.980
vision is needed not only to inspire these young woke people to build and make things of this of
01:34:55.700
themselves it's also needed so that those of us so that we do not become the abyss that we've been
01:35:02.340
staring into and i think that is already happening right well you know that's that's also because it's
01:35:08.120
always good to give the devil is due i mean people on the left are right to oppose corporate slash
01:35:15.040
government gigantism and collusion and people like bernie sanders and russell brand and joe rogan to some
01:35:21.020
degree do a quite a nice job of that on the left and then also the criticism that the left levies against
01:35:28.140
the right which is you're just reactionary is a valid criticism because of what you just laid out is that
01:35:35.960
if you just become the mirror opposite of that which you're opposing it's not the mirror opposite
01:35:42.880
it's you become the mere reaction to that which you are opposing then you will fall prey to the same
01:35:49.600
set of problems right and this is something i'm worried about on the florida front for example like
01:35:55.920
i've talked to christopher ruffo and and he's a good staunch wall and i would say the same thing about
01:36:03.860
de santis but the conservatives are toying with censorship as an answer to the problem of
01:36:10.220
the woke miasma and it's very complicated because i do believe that no has to be said to drag queen
01:36:18.760
story hour but by the same token as soon as you go down the the book forbidding route you instantly
01:36:26.180
introduce into your own ethos the problem of enabling the censors who are operating by the same
01:36:32.700
principles in principle on your side and that's a huge problem and so for me this has to be
01:36:40.140
battled out in the realm of ideas like we're doing today right we're trying to see where we can get on
01:36:45.980
this front and you you it's very difficult to define a set of ideas and then forbid them without
01:36:52.680
falling prey to the problem of having to forbid all sorts of things that maybe you should be leaving
01:36:57.340
the hell alone and part of it i think is also the inability to articulate what you are for
01:37:04.180
therefore you have to become destructive about what the other people are saying because you can't win
01:37:09.300
the battle of ideas with an absence of ideas you can't win a battle of ideas by saying your idea is crap
01:37:15.180
because sure it's crap but if you're not offering if you're afraid to offer anything in exchange and
01:37:21.300
that's where we are i think i think uh people on the conservative side of things are afraid to to say
01:37:27.420
the things that they ought to say which is some of the things that you were articulating earlier about
01:37:32.800
the eight seven or eight different things in life that one ought to focus on in order to make for a
01:37:37.980
meaningful life well if you're afraid to say any of those things then the only thing that you have left
01:37:44.040
is to become the destructive mirror version of the thing that you're fighting and i see this the
01:37:50.740
problem i see with this and this is why i wanted to talk to you about the the ukraine thing as well is
01:37:55.200
i see the anti-woke instinctively going to a position of well whatever we're being told is automatically
01:38:02.120
untrue and automatically wrong and that means that they no longer believe in the concept of truth either
01:38:08.340
if to you the truth is the opposite of what the mainstream is saying you don't believe in truth
01:38:13.700
either all you believe is in this pointless destructive battle that in which truth and
01:38:19.980
reality no longer exist and i think jordan one of the biggest challenges that we face is the
01:38:25.420
technological destruction of the very idea of truth that we're living through that is what i think we're
01:38:31.460
wrestling with so the conversation that we had obviously did go very deep and we talked about god and
01:38:36.320
religion but if your claim is that we cannot agree on truth without god then i maybe maybe i'm i'm gonna
01:38:44.540
potentially agree with you that that's perhaps what the world needs because if you think that's the
01:38:50.660
only way we're going to get rid of truth we need something because right now neither side knows what the
01:38:55.800
truth is well the the question is constantine i think to some degree the question there is
01:39:01.180
is is there by necessity is the image of god by necessity nested inside the claim that there is
01:39:10.880
such a thing as truth and i think it might be because one of the things i've been seeing happening
01:39:16.520
and this isn't the fact that this is happening isn't self-evident that it would happen like inevitable
01:39:22.400
you know is that and i think this is what's put people like richard dawkins back on their heels a
01:39:28.460
little bit is that the hope was that if we got rid of the superstitious totalitarianism of the
01:39:34.180
religious delusion that everyone would spring forth as an enlightenment scientist now the problem
01:39:40.960
is is that most scientists aren't scientists yeah maybe two or three percent of them are it's really
01:39:47.280
hard to be a scientist you have to really be oriented towards the truth and nothing else and i do think
01:39:54.060
dawkins to a large degree falls into that category i think dawkins acts out the proposition that the
01:40:00.500
universe has an intrinsic logos and that the pursuit of that will set you free now he he believes the
01:40:07.000
religious enterprise interferes with that but the fundamental ethos that he acts out is nonetheless
01:40:11.980
i believe a religious ethos um it isn't obvious to me at all i think that if we lose god so god
01:40:20.060
is dead we'll lose science too and i think that's playing out right now man is there less of an
01:40:26.640
assault on the idea of religious transcendence than there is an assault on the idea of scientific truth
01:40:32.160
i don't think so i think they're both under the gun to exactly the same degree and the stem fields
01:40:39.320
science technology engineering and mathematics are you know they're falling prey to the machinations of
01:40:44.860
the woke left like a like a butter stick and you know being run through by a hot knife we could easily
01:40:50.700
lose the scientific enterprise well this is why i've always said that the trans thing is what will break
01:40:55.460
intersectionality and wokeness because that is a point at which reality does clash with ideology and to the
01:41:05.700
extent that reality exists and i believe it exists and truth exists that is a focal point where you cannot
01:41:13.520
pretend anymore once you've cut a teenage girl's breasts off and she's not happy about it three day
01:41:19.780
three years later that is a point at which whatever ideas you had in your head about everyone's everyone
01:41:27.180
gets to define themselves well guess what that is the point at which reality clashes and it's it's the same
01:41:33.140
with parents obviously we've just interviewed somebody about this a woman who transitioned her child
01:41:39.900
and regretted it and we'll be putting that out very shortly oh okay okay well i did an interview with
01:41:46.040
chloe cole i saw that who had transitioned and regretted it yeah and i think well look you know
01:41:50.620
well at the beginning of genesis when god creates human beings he does say well people are made in the image
01:41:58.600
of god so that's the installation of this divine transcendent value that's part and parcel of
01:42:04.900
let's say the eternal soul right it's emblematic of the intrinsic uh dignity and and importance of
01:42:12.860
each person regardless of status but then the second phrase is men and women he created them right the
01:42:20.000
notion that there's this fundamental bifurcation that's built into the structure of reality itself
01:42:25.100
and you could easily you can easily make that into you can easily make a biological case for that i mean
01:42:31.780
right sex is i don't know if there is a conceptual or perceptual category an orienting category i don't
01:42:39.440
think there's an orienting category that's more fundamental than male and female i don't i think it's more
01:42:45.380
fundamental than up and down and so you blow that out with your tower of babel which is exactly what we're doing
01:42:52.140
right now is you blow out everything and so i do think the t in the lgbt etc uh alphabet panoply the
01:43:01.200
t is going to be the breaking point i do believe that because that is the point at which the truth
01:43:08.420
claims are evidently impossible to maintain the identity truth claims that people make and we have
01:43:16.600
just had uh this case in the uk in the scottish prison where a double rapist was put into a female
01:43:24.820
prison and the public are starting to realize what's going on jordan and i have always said this would
01:43:30.800
happen because on most things people will go along as you said to get along but on this sort of stuff
01:43:38.300
they can't anymore and so not when their children are at stake that's exactly right and whether children
01:43:44.800
or frankly women uh as well when women women's safeties are at stake so women's safety is at stake
01:43:50.760
so that's why it seems to me that we're coming to some kind of head on this position irrespective of
01:43:58.440
the conversation we've had about god or not the the truth claims of the woke identitarians are going
01:44:03.900
to start to crumble over time and that i think will be the focal point through which that happens
01:44:09.040
we're well we're also we're also seeing a clash with the notion of evil i would say because the
01:44:15.340
the woke narrative is that all oppressed are victimized and innocent but there's a real problem
01:44:21.460
with that and the problem is the fringe of the fringes and on the fringe of the fringes are fringes are
01:44:27.220
the narcissistic psychopaths who are sadists as well and who are who are bad right to the bone you know
01:44:34.740
perhaps even beyond the point of any atonement or forgiveness or at least that on the human realm and
01:44:40.720
if you don't think that there are people out there who are sexual serial slayers or or predators
01:44:48.640
who are perfectly willing to adopt a female identity to fool woke idiots into giving them access to women
01:44:55.480
you are naive to the point of being a danger to yourself and everyone else and when i watch people
01:45:01.700
like the scottish prime minister do backflips to try to deny the reality of people like that i think
01:45:07.100
you bloody well better hope up hope for your own sake that one of those psychopathic deviants doesn't
01:45:13.320
make himself manifest in your bedroom in the middle of the night one day so there's a naivety there
01:45:19.700
about the reality of evil that is also as deep as the denial of basic let's say both biological and
01:45:28.280
metaphysical slash conceptual reality and that is a hard wall to run into it's the main problem with
01:45:34.300
the systemic way of looking at society as they do because if you believe that people's behavior is
01:45:41.440
predetermined by structures and systems then that those marginal deviants can't be accounted for that
01:45:48.760
this is why at the extreme end of wokeism they believe in abolishing prisons and the police and the
01:45:54.240
reason they believe that is they believe that you can only be made into a criminal by a bad corrupt
01:45:59.000
system instead of recognizing the fact that criminals and bad people have always existed throughout history
01:46:04.520
because that seems to be the distribution of skills and talents and predilections and psychological
01:46:09.960
traits um but they can't choices and choices so yeah that's the big one that we can't talk about but
01:46:16.540
choices exactly right yeah so that's the fundamental flaw in analysis but of course produces these crazy
01:46:22.800
ideas uh where people believe that you know well no no one is ever going to be bad unless the system
01:46:29.280
made them so well guess what that's not how life works right right definitely definitely the system
01:46:36.020
makes lots of people better than they would otherwise be it makes some people worse and some people choose
01:46:42.220
to become worse of their own accord right they dance with the devil and uh and they do that voluntarily
01:46:48.540
i mean even when god calls out cain in the story of cain and abel he basically says to cain um
01:46:55.420
sin crouches at your door that's the temptation to be envious of abel and to be you know fratricidally
01:47:05.360
vengeful god says to cain your sacrifices have been rejected because you didn't put enough effort into
01:47:12.940
them and that's made you bitter and now sin crouches at your door like a sexually aroused
01:47:18.800
predatory animal and you've invited it in to have its way with you and all the consequences of that
01:47:26.340
are on you and that's exactly right as far as i've been able to tell is that people can be alienated and
01:47:34.160
marginalized and pushed out of society and that can be very unfair but then when they get bitter
01:47:40.500
and decide to open the door to the vampire that's lurking outside then they enter into a creative
01:47:50.060
bargain with said spirit and all hell breaks loose and there's an element of choice in that and if you
01:47:57.180
don't see that then you're blind enough so that you will be the prey of those predators so that's why
01:48:05.300
we need the positive vision jordan that's why i'm excited about and by the way i know where we want
01:48:10.460
to wrap up but i i will just say this that i think what you're in in formulating this idea of needing
01:48:16.880
some kind of positive vision you're actually channeling something that a lot of people are
01:48:20.220
feeling i've noticed that almost everyone i suggest i talked about and i've been talking to
01:48:25.040
mutual friends of ours for a long time about the fact that we need to start thinking in a more
01:48:28.940
positive way um everyone gets it the time is now and this is what this is what in my opinion the
01:48:36.560
world needs right now it needs a positive vision of the future that people can unite and it's got
01:48:40.720
to be voluntary i yes it has to be voluntary absolutely and it has to be based on widespread
01:48:45.780
distribution of responsibility to everyone it can't be top down well and that goes along with being
01:48:51.100
voluntary well what's been weird about putting together this enterprise and we're going to release
01:48:55.460
more details about it soon is that everyone i've talked to in like 25 countries immediately says
01:49:06.000
we really need to do that i'm on board i'll rearrange my schedule what can i do to help and not only that
01:49:13.640
the the group of people that has aggregated itself together around this vision has been able to very
01:49:21.440
rapidly move towards the formulation of six key questions and even that was uniting and that's
01:49:28.840
very strange right because this is a preposterous enterprise and the probability that it would
01:49:33.900
produce nothing but fractiousness and resistance is extraordinarily high and yet that isn't what's
01:49:40.100
happening it's not strange to me at all it's not strange to me and this is where i come back to
01:49:44.560
intuition because this is what the world needs it does not surprise me that everything is aligning to
01:49:49.560
make it happen and the reason that people are canceling appointments and whatever is they
01:49:53.560
recognize fundamentally that the problem we've been trying to solve for the last however many six or
01:49:58.660
seven years at least is not going to get solved by the methods we've been using so far and something new
01:50:04.160
and radical is necessary that is constructive in nature because the world has become a very destructive
01:50:10.400
place that's part of that universality of underlying intuition right you can see in that that the time calls for a
01:50:17.860
particular solution and then that intuition makes it manifest it makes it self-manifest to everyone
01:50:22.980
and that is part of a uniting what would you call it well it's part of the manifestation of a uniting
01:50:29.080
spirit there's no other real way of characterizing it now i disagree but we probably don't have the time
01:50:34.800
no well how you regard the nature of that spirit well we're all looking at a world we're seeing the
01:50:40.980
problem and because we are able to respond to the thing that we're seeing we're generating a solution
01:50:46.320
and the solution to me is obvious yep right that's what i think to be that seems to be the case and
01:50:52.480
that seems to be how it's playing itself out so now let's do it exactly well we have to uh what would
01:50:58.480
you say orient ourselves very carefully so that the temptations for this to be undermined by something
01:51:05.360
that is once yet again top down don't make themselves manifest yeah all right constantine and
01:51:11.920
for everyone watching and listening on youtube or the associated platforms thank you very much for
01:51:16.940
your time and attention thanks for agreeing to talk to me again today uh we'll turn now to the daily
01:51:22.700
wire plus side of the conversation i'll spend another half an hour with constantine talking about how his
01:51:28.300
particular interests made themselves manifest that spirit of intuition let's say across his life and
01:51:34.340
uh some of you will join me there on the daily wire plus platform and constantine good luck with
01:51:40.440
trigonometry moving forward and it looks like you've gone past the point of likely cancellation now
01:51:46.080
um and that's that's a nice threshold to have crossed and congratulations on your oxford talk and
01:51:52.000
you said you figured 200 million 100 to 200 million views that's quite the that's quite the home run so
01:51:59.280
congrats on that thank you very much jordan it's a pleasure and we look forward to having you back
01:52:04.660
on trigonometry and i'd love to talk with you about the other subjects we wanted to cover yeah well i'd
01:52:08.980
like to talk about russia and ukraine at some point so maybe we can do that sooner rather than later
01:52:13.700
let's do it okay good to talk to you man and we'll and we'll see uh to those of you watching and
01:52:20.200
listening thanks very much to the film crew who put this together today appreciate that and to the
01:52:24.940
daily wire plus people for making these conversations uh technically proficient and of high quality
01:52:31.540
in terms of the production values that's much appreciated as well ciao hello everyone i would
01:52:38.840
encourage you to continue listening to my conversation with my guest on dailywireplus.com