343. Parkour and Rough Play： Combatting Infantilization ｜ Rafe Kelley
Summary
Rafael Kelly heads Evolve, Move and Play, an organization dedicated to the study of the role of play in the integration and regulation of aggression, as well as the fostering of pro-social behavior at an embodied level. In this episode, Rafe talks about the importance of rough and tumble play, and the role it plays in the development of empathy, empathy, and empathy in children, and how it can be applied to adults and children. He also discusses the role that fathers can play in providing support, encouragement, and guidance to their children, especially when it comes to dealing with their children's aggression. And, as always, thank you for listening to HYPEBEAST Radio and Business of HYPE. Please don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to our other shows MIC/LINE, The Anthropology, The HYPE Report, and HYPETALKS. Have you heard of anything more chilling than frozen beef? Until November 3rd, get an always fresh, never frozen Dave single from Wendy's for only $4.99 (with free shipping) at participating Wendy's. Terms and conditions apply. Available in Vanilla, Mocha, Vanilla, and Salted Caramel, available in Mocha Spice, and Cacao, which is also available in Vanilla or Salted Chempalatto. Mocha Brown, Salted Cappuccino, which means you get 10% off your first purchase. $4, $5, $10, $15, $20, and $25, $50, and $55, $60, plus shipping, and shipping is included in the offer, plus shipping is available through Nov 3rd and 4th and 5th is available for $99.99, and 6th is an additional $99, including shipping. . Thanks to my good friend and I hope you enjoy this episode. Thank you so much for listening and share it with your fellow listeners! and I'll see you in the next episode! Timestamps: 4:30 - 7:00 - What do you think of this episode? 8:15 - What would you like to do? 9: How do you hear about it? 11:00 12:40 - What's your favorite part? 13:30 15:10 - What are you would like to hear from someone else? 16:10 17:15 18:40
Transcript
00:00:00.000
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I'm speaking today on matters psychological and practical, I suppose, and hopefully also
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while entertaining and fun, as well as appropriately serious.
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I'm talking to Rafe Kelly today, who heads an organization called Evolve, Move and Play.
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And I'm very interested, have been very interested for a long time in the role of play in the
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integration and regulation, well, not only of aggression, but also in the fostering of
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And there's a literature that has emerged over the last several decades indicating that
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rough and tumble play, in particular, is important for kids at very early developmental stages,
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probably from six months up to, well, who knows up to what level, till you're old.
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And then that pretend play, which scaffolds in on top of that, is also of primary significance
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in the development of the ability to act in a truly reciprocal and social manner, a manner
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So Rafe, why don't we start with a bit of your background?
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Why don't you fill people in on, you know, your educational background, your interests
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and all that, and then we'll start talking about getting more to the nuts and bolts of
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I think given that you started with kind of rough and tumble play, it'd be good to start
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So I was diagnosed with ADHD and dyslexia at an early age, and my dad had had similar learning
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And I was kind of raised in that counterculture.
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So my dad wanted to just take me out of the school system and just unschool me.
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And my dad kind of reacted to that by just sort of pulling away from me and sort of emotionally
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So I was acting out in school and getting in lots of fistfights.
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And I got introduced to the martial arts when I was six years old.
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And that started helping me learn to regulate my emotions.
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And then I had a mentor who came into my life who actually took over my education and started
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homeschooling me after going into fourth grade.
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And he did a few things that were really helpful to me.
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He let me spend just two hours a day doing homework, and then the rest of the day I would
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But he also did rough and tumble play with me extensively, pretty much every day.
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So through the martial arts and through rough and tumble play, very early on, I experienced
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that physical practices could have this really transformative effect on me.
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How old were you when that started, that rough and tumble play?
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So my dad did a lot of rough and tumble play with me when I was little.
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But then there was that period where I was more neglectful in our relationship.
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Then the second mentor who came into my life came into my life when I was eight years old.
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Yeah, well, you pointed out something very interesting there with regard to your father.
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I mean, I've actually seen that pattern in many families.
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You know, and it seems so, for example, I've seen within my own extended family, thinking
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of one couple in particular, where every time the father attempted to involve himself in
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the discipline, let's say, which is really the attention and regulation of his son, his wife
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would, in small ways and not so small, interfere in a rather punitive manner, treating her husband
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as if his interaction, his involvement was both inappropriate, ignorant and dangerous,
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And my experience with that has been that what men usually do in that situation is pull
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You know, like the mother has to put up a bit of a barrier because there should be a
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little tension between the parents about how the kids should be treated.
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And the mothers tend to be more prone to provide security and comfort and fathers to provide
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And getting that exactly right really depends on the temperament of the parents and the temperament
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But it's unbelievably easy for women to be overprotective of their children enough to stop
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And then what often happens as a consequence of that is the women then ask themselves why
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the hell the father isn't more involved with the kids.
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And often the answer to that, not always, but often is, well, you punished it out of existence.
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Every time the father stepped forward to take an interest, you put up a barrier that was
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And so, but you had a lot of interactions with your dad when you were young.
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My dad's a really interesting and creative person.
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And he was very playful with me when I was young.
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He's a really, yeah, interesting person in that way.
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But he, you know, he's a member of the counterculture.
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He grew up, you know, my, my father was actually in jail during my mom's pregnancy for selling
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Like my mom had reason to be protective in some sense.
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And my dad was, was, was struggling with, with some of those things, but we, he and
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I have a great relationship now, but it did set me up for this, this, this sort of crisis
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at a very early age that then was resolved through, through getting access to rough and
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tumble play and then epic literature, which was also really important to me.
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And so this guy that, the guy that started to, to play with you when you were eight, how did
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And why did your mother and father encourage that or even allow it?
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Because that's also a place where, you know, people can be skeptical.
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There's a whole story there, but basically we, we rented land.
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And, and so we just rented a space to this couple, it was two men who'd moved in and
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my mom was desperate for babysitters and he offered himself as a babysitter.
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And then over time we just got closer and closer.
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And so when, when my mom took me out of school, initially she was going to do some of the
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And then over time it was like the demands on her for taking care of the family financially
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and taking care of my little sister were sufficient that it was very difficult for her.
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And he was just there and, you know, was willing to do it.
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And so that's kind of how that, that worked out.
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So what I wanted to share was that as, as I kind of then developed, I was in, I was in
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this Red Cedar Circle, which is a kind of Native American religious group in my early, my late,
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And there were a lot of other young kids there whose, you know, whose families were part of
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And so by the time I was 12, I started really being kind of just being asked to babysit these
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And I noticed that they all had this incredible hunger for a rough and tumble play.
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It was like this deep unmet need that I was seeing in children everywhere.
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And so I started just being the guy who would roughhouse with kids at any social gathering.
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And then people started asking me to come over.
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Unfortunately, after a bike accident, he had his spleen taken out and he didn't get soda
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But he had a six-year-old brother and his brother started having a hard time falling asleep
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after he passed away because he used to roughhouse with his older brother every night before bed.
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So his mom called me and asked me to come over a couple nights a week and just roughhouse with
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And so I developed a really close relationship with him kind of through that same relationship.
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So I got to kind of step into that role in facilitating rough and tumble play for younger
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And then I went on to work as a mentor for kids in my teens.
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So independently, I'd also developed just an interest in general athleticism.
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And again, I had these young, crazy boys with tons of energy and found that they really
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just wanted someone who was willing to wrestle with them.
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I first came across the play research through a man named Frank Francich in his book, The Exuberant
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Animal, and I started digging into it behind that and then came into Stuart Brown's work.
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And I'm not sure if you're familiar with Stuart Brown, but Stuart Brown was a psychological
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And he was looking specifically at spree killers, people who go out and kill a lot of people
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And he was looking for any kind of common trait in their development that would explain this
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And what he found was actually inhibition of play.
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That if you look at spree killers, they almost always were prevented by their parents from
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Their parents treated play as unnecessary and as something that had to be restricted.
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And that this, he believed, was the center of that.
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And then through Stuart Brown, I became aware of Yak Panksepp's work.
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So later, when I came into your work and started listening to you talk about Yak Panksepp and
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And then, obviously, you've written that paper on rough and tumble play and the regulation
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For me, because I was put in detention when I was in second grade because I actually bounced
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a kid's head off the concrete and bust his nose open.
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And it was only because someone was willing to go really deep with me into that intense
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physical play that I was able to let go of that need to express the aggression in the
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That's what I think is so incredible about what you've talked about.
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And what I've seen is that we think that it's like just mocking out combat and building
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But actually, what you're really doing is learning the dance of recognizing how your touch and
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the way that you move with somebody, how that plays out in them.
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And then that's that kind of really building ground for empathy.
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Well, I have a great paper on my personality course website on the hypothalamus.
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The name escapes me at the moment of the author, but it'll come back.
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People can go to my Psychology 230 website on my home website under courses.
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And the gentleman who wrote that paper, who's a real genius, basically put a physiological
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scaffold underneath Jean Piaget's ideas about the expansion of reflex.
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And so, you know, we think of empathy as something like theory of mind.
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You know, and that I can understand your pain, but that isn't, and it's conceptual, but that
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isn't really how it works, because you use your body as a platform to run simulations
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Like I had a friend when I was a kid, and he didn't have a father, and he used to come
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My dad actually stepped in sort of as a surrogate father for him.
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And I used to wrestle with this friend of mine, and every time I wrestled, I got hurt.
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He'd stick his thumb in my eye or some damn thing.
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And I realized even at that age, it was because he didn't know how to play.
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And that dance that you describe of, that's part and parcel of extended rough and tumble
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play, the reason it develops empathy is because while you're wrestling and playing in that
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physical manner, you get to see, first of all, where you get hurt.
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You know, how far you can be extended and how far you can be pushed until the excitement
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and challenge turns into pain, and there's a limit there.
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And you want to actually play right up to that limit, which is the exciting limit.
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And then you learn that that's true of you and another person, but you learn it, you know,
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You have to learn that about your entire body or you can't map someone else onto you because
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And so in that rough and tumble play, you're laying a level of deeply embodied knowledge
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And then you're learning to integrate them into an interpersonal dance.
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Panksep showed, this is research you made reference to, that if you deprive male juvenile
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rats of rough and tumble play, which they do spontaneously and they like to wrestle, then
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they play hyper-aggressively when you allow them to, like frenetically, desperately.
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And, you know, which sort of reminds me of what you were saying about your expression
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of aggression and their prefrontal cortexes don't mature.
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And you can suppress their excess play behavior with amphetamines, which is Ritalin, for example.
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And so what really seems to have happened, and this is an epidemic and it's an appalling
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epidemic, is that we have all these boys who are likely high in extroversion and openness,
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so very exploratory boys, some of them more disagreeable.
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So that would make them also more, you know, less naturally empathic, who are absolutely
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And so they're desperately moving because they need to.
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And then that's medicalized because the goal is to sit down and shut the hell up, even though
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And, you know, then the medication, the amphetamine suppress the play instinct.
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I wrote an essay on this for the Good Men Project back in, I think, 2016.
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It was just literally titled Rough Housing, Not Ritalin.
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What you just said is that we need to provide cultural spaces for this rough and tumble play
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I have, I told you before we started recording that I have a five-year-old daughter.
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I also have an eight-year-old boy and a 10-year-old daughter.
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And so I've been doing this rough and tumble play with them since they were little.
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And they've started training martial arts when they were little, four years old.
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And the friends realize that they're in affordance to wrestle, which they don't necessarily have
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And so I get to see how a lot of these kids who are desperate for this opportunity become
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very poorly regulated in when they have an opportunity for it, right?
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Well, they don't know how to control their force levels.
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They don't know that, like, it's appropriate to, like, wrestle somebody and not to bite them
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So, you know, like, one thing I have to work on with my kids is because they've learned
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jujitsu since they were little, like, they're used to doing chokes.
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And I have to, like, make sure they remember because, like, if you put a choke hold on a
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kid who's never been roughhoused with, they will—that will just destroy their emotional
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And so my kids, they don't under—you know, for them, all this stuff is very natural.
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They don't—but they have learned, and they are learning, and it's amazing to watch how
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And so my son, who's eight years old, he's a little bit smaller for his age, or he's
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a third grader, and he's just kind of old enough to be a third grader.
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So kids will kind of push on him because he seems like he's small, right?
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And it's amazing to watch him just not have an emotional reaction and be physically
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strong enough and balanced enough that when a kid tries to punch him, you know, he moves
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out of the way, and he grabs them and holds them with his hand and just stops them completely.
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Yeah, well, part of what you're pointing to there is that emergent tolerance for provocation,
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which is also really important later in life, say, if you're married, because you need
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to be able to regulate your emotional response.
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And of course, the most direct provocation is going to be the provocation that you experience
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And to learn to stay within the bounds of acceptable play while you're being provoked,
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which is exactly what's happening when you're wrestling, does lay the groundwork for civilized
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You know, a lot of people, when they're married, they can't really have a serious conversation.
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They can't go down into the depths where the real reparation work might need to be done
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because they're afraid that if they're provoked, they don't know what they'll do, you know.
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They break down in tears and have a fit, or they get aggressive, or they respond inappropriately
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in an aggressive manner, and that can be physical very quickly.
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And then they don't know what they're doing, so they're very awkward in their regression.
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And so because they don't have that underlying complex dance of, you know, provocation and
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response that's all calibrated, they can't ever risk provoking each other.
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Plus, the other thing they don't learn, which is really important as well, is that, you know,
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if you're wrestling with someone and playing around, you kind of encapsulate the conflict
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and you give it a space to make itself manifest.
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And, you know, the other thing that people don't have often is they don't know how to
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And so they won't start a fight because they're afraid that it'll never end.
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And then they can't talk about anything important.
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Like, it's, yeah, it's amazing how much of a catastrophe this really is.
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So, okay, so we got to the point in your life where you were about 13.
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Starting to be hired out as a child whisperer in some sense, right?
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That's a good analogy because you also see that with dogs.
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If you're training a dog, a lot of what you do with a dog is physical play.
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And if the dog starts to misbehave, the easiest thing to do with it is just flip it on its back
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It's like, no, when I say no, I mean stop doing that.
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And, you know, you don't have to do that with a dog very often before the dog clues in.
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Yeah, there's the parallels between, like, why play is so important in humans and dogs are the same.
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Like, one of the things that I found early on in my research into what became Evolve Move Play
00:21:18.880
was actually I was training a dog and I read a book called The Serious Puppy Training Book
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And I said that, you know, puppies have to bite because that's how they manipulate the world, right?
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Like puppies, like dogs, their hands are their jaws.
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And they want to use them and explore what they're capable of.
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So a puppy is going to want to jaw spar with you.
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And if you tell that puppy no, every time that it tries to interact with you like that,
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it won't be able to map how its mouth interacts with you.
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So what he advised is that what you need to do is you let the puppy start biting at your hand.
00:22:05.660
And every time that the force is too hard, you pull away and you deny the puppy what it's looking for,
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And so now it's regulating its aggression to, okay, I need to only bite hard enough that this human being can tolerate it
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And over time, then the dog develops bite inhibition.
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So dogs that are not allowed rough and tumble play, it turns out, are much more dangerous as adults
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because they can't regulate the impulse to bite.
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But a dog that's been played with extensively has a very fine-tuned capacity to control the level of force in its jaw.
00:22:46.940
Yeah, well, it's quite miraculous, you know, with dogs, given that they're essentially wolves.
00:22:51.480
You know, if your dog is well-trained, you can even play with him with one of his chew toys or his bones,
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And a well-trained dog is unbelievably judicious with its bite force
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and it will also play differently with little kids than it will with adults,
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which shows a tremendous amount of sophistication on the part of the dog.
00:23:12.100
But that also assumes that, you know, you've batted the dog around and wrestled with it and harassed it
00:23:17.180
and, you know, and pushed it so that it's not easy to provoke.
00:23:21.440
And that's also why, you know, people wonder why people tease.
00:23:25.320
And teasing is a form of more abstracted rough and tumble play.
00:23:32.940
It's this attempt to push the object of teasing sort of to the level of their tolerance for provocation
00:23:44.140
It's part of the way that people assess each other profoundly.
00:23:49.060
Like, I told this story in my book about this guy, Lunchbucket, that came to work on the rail crew with us
00:23:56.220
when I was working on the rail crew in Saskatchewan.
00:23:58.360
And he, no one had ever played with Lunchbucket, that's for sure.
00:24:02.080
And it was pretty obvious to everybody that he was still under the unfortunate dominion of his mother
00:24:07.380
because she had packed him his Lunchbucket when the appropriate thing to do socially
00:24:11.920
was bring a brown paper bag that wasn't, you know, too special,
00:24:16.100
which was also interestingly true of our high school.
00:24:18.300
You know, and Lunchbucket didn't take kindly to being teased about his Lunchbucket
00:24:24.160
and the level of provocation that the other guys aimed at him just increased.
00:24:29.620
And it got to the point where people were throwing rocks at him when he was on the crew.
00:24:33.080
But the reason for that was because he couldn't be trusted.
00:24:38.520
If you provoked him, he would respond with too much aggression.
00:24:42.060
And that was an indication to everyone, even though no one really knew this,
00:24:45.320
that he wasn't properly self-socialized and then could be a loose cannon if the, you know, in a dicey situation.
00:24:54.000
And the other thing, too, I think that teasing, it's also an attempt to initiate play.
00:24:58.980
You know, like one of the things you see with kids is that when they meet each other on the playground
00:25:06.660
You know, they sort of start out assuming the other kid is, like, younger and less developmentally able.
00:25:12.880
But they ratchet that up quickly to see if they're at a peer-to-peer level.
00:25:16.360
And then they play on the edge, and that'll make kids friends.
00:25:20.840
If kids can play as peers on the edge, then they become friends.
00:25:24.620
And there's a lot of mutual provocation in that.
00:25:27.500
And that's partly the extension of that capacity for emotional regulation,
00:25:31.380
as well as the extension of the capacity for creative interaction.
00:25:35.840
Yeah, if we go back to that rough and tumble theme,
00:25:38.420
like, I made a lot of my closest friends after fistfights when I was in school.
00:25:42.580
It was like we had to provoke each other to that level before we could, say,
00:25:47.200
drop into a point of trust with each other in the kind of redneck culture that I was growing up in,
00:25:51.500
which maybe wasn't so similar to where you grew up.
00:25:53.860
I wanted to go back to something you said earlier because I wanted to reflect a couple of things
00:25:57.080
that I learned from your work, specifically in this idea of how the rough and tumble play
00:26:03.040
is this game that scales up, that what I think is so profound about,
00:26:10.840
like J.J. Gibson's work and some of these people that we're referencing,
00:26:14.040
is you actually can't see the meaning in the world if you can't act it out, right?
00:26:21.100
What we perceive is actually dependent on how we can act.
00:26:25.000
And so when we engage with something like rough and tumble,
00:26:27.940
we're actually mapping in the different potential meanings of touch.
00:26:31.820
And when we don't get that opportunity to engage in rough and tumble play,
00:26:35.540
what's actually happening is that we're losing the map of what a physical interaction can mean.
00:26:42.160
And the other analogy of yours that I really love is the analogy of resolution.
00:26:46.860
So how many pixels are in the picture that you have of physical touch?
00:26:52.760
And I think what's happened in our culture is that we've denied people so much basic touch
00:27:00.280
and so much basic rough and tumble play that we've sort of collapsed the picture of touch to sex and violence.
00:27:09.940
And so you'll see kids engage in play and you'll see adults who are absolutely on the edge of their seats
00:27:15.300
because they can't see the difference between healthy, productive play and violence
00:27:26.700
And like everybody's map is complete of everything, but maps differ very much in resolution.
00:27:32.240
And that, you know, the biblical term for sexual congress is knowledge.
00:27:38.680
And that's partly because, well, sex is a form of play.
00:27:45.620
And it's very properly practiced, let's say, it's extraordinarily high resolution.
00:27:52.320
And that's part of that detailed exploration of the physical landscape
00:27:59.800
And that's definitely all part and parcel of exploratory rough and tumble play.
00:28:06.920
I mean, part of the reason that people are loathe to allow their kids to engage in boisterous play
00:28:13.900
is because, as you said, their maps are so low resolution
00:28:17.040
that they can't distinguish between true aggression and pretend aggression.
00:28:25.160
And so there are often people who are afraid, for example, of dogs
00:28:28.320
because they can't distinguish a dog with its tail wagging, its mouth hanging open,
00:28:33.360
you know, that wants to play and is making maneuvers in that direction.
00:28:36.900
They can't distinguish that from an aggressive onslaught.
00:28:40.280
This is why you see in schools this idiot insistence that, you know,
00:28:46.840
Because the teachers who push that doctrine have been played with so little
00:28:52.660
that they think all play, which is a form of competition,
00:28:57.800
it's cooperation and competition simultaneously,
00:28:59.700
they think all that's just properly lumped into the category of aggression.
00:29:03.780
And then they think all aggression should be suppressed.
00:29:06.140
And it's, yeah, it's absolutely, it's completely, it's awful for young boys,
00:29:11.120
but it's awful for women too because the boys then end up awkward
00:29:18.920
And, you know, they can't dance and they can't move
00:29:21.300
and their emotional regulation is volatile and, yeah.
00:29:30.320
it's a complete bloody disaster what's going to children.
00:29:36.020
When I first started Evolve Move Play, Mercer Island,
00:29:39.800
which is one of the school districts that was near us,
00:29:42.160
had banned tag, like completely, no touch-based games.
00:29:46.120
And they had shortened recesses to seven minutes.
00:29:49.040
And their justification for this was because children couldn't play
00:29:54.060
for longer than seven minutes without experiencing conflict.
00:29:57.000
And this is just, it's so absurd because it's like,
00:30:03.380
how are they ever going to learn without these things?
00:30:06.960
Well, the thing is people who do take that tack assume that
00:30:15.060
You know, when you talked about this experience you had with your friends
00:30:19.600
that often you had to fight with one or more of them.
00:30:22.300
And, you know, that's another thing that's quite different about boys and girls
00:30:26.120
because boys will often, even with their friends,
00:30:36.160
It either, if two boys face off each other and are willing to fight,
00:30:41.200
generally they won't pick fights with each other anymore.
00:30:46.300
And it's not that rare for that to turn into a friendship,
00:30:50.660
which is also a very interesting and strange thing.
00:30:55.840
Yeah, it is a strange thing looking back on it,
00:30:57.960
but it was definitely a feature of my childhood.
00:30:59.680
And I wanted to go back briefly to what you're talking about with sexuality
00:31:05.140
because, and I wanted to touch on women in rough and tumble play
00:31:12.200
We take the basic kind of architecture of contact improvisation dance
00:31:17.660
and mixed martial arts, and we build scalable games
00:31:21.100
that vary from totally cooperative to hyper-competitive.
00:31:25.860
And then we kind of, you can play a very competitive game
00:31:28.580
that's very safe by scaling the way that the players can interact.
00:31:36.160
And now my general observation is working with kids,
00:31:39.200
the boys always want to roughhouse more, right?
00:31:41.480
My son roughhouses more than his sisters, for sure.
00:31:46.640
and have always requested being roughhoused with,
00:31:59.460
who have the most profound experience from the roughhousing.
00:32:02.760
And I think that what it is is that our culture in general
00:32:08.060
But women are more likely to have accepted the culture's story
00:32:16.920
And there are fewer cultural spaces that really give them
00:32:27.300
who will say, this was incredibly healing for me.
00:32:30.300
And one of the things that they say is it really changes the way
00:32:33.540
that they feel about men and like helps the sort of gender conflict
00:32:37.400
to be able to experience doing something very competitive
00:32:41.100
and physical that has no sexual element with a man.
00:32:51.260
obviously men and women have to figure that out.
00:32:53.540
But there's also research that shows that if you deny rough and tumble play
00:32:56.840
to juvenile rats, the male rats can't successfully engage
00:33:01.340
in courtship behavior and mounting behavior once they become adults.
00:33:08.840
Yeah, and you look at what's happening in our culture right now
00:33:12.840
and the ability of people to form partnerships.
00:33:17.880
We're denying them the basic sort of sense of mapping
00:33:34.320
You know, people are often extraordinarily concerned
00:33:37.120
with the content that's being delivered to kids on the cell phones.
00:33:40.760
And I think the content is relevant to some degree.
00:33:51.000
And the link between violent video games and aggression
00:33:59.700
is that more aggressive boys like more aggressive video games.
00:34:25.300
for such things as direct rough and tumble physical play
00:34:36.960
in, let's say, junior high, high school and university
00:34:46.700
that should have occurred at about the age of three.
00:35:13.620
and to figure out what it was like to be a girl,
00:35:17.980
if you're going to have some empathy for girls,
00:35:30.040
then why wouldn't it reemerge with a vengeance later
00:35:33.120
when the stage is set to make it socially acceptable?
00:35:39.640
all that looks to me like repressed pretend play.
00:36:22.240
that the suppression of play is really a problem
00:36:25.800
and that there's a lot of cultural downstream effects
00:36:28.660
that are going to be very hard for us to map, right?
00:36:39.560
not so much because, as you said, of the content,
00:36:43.500
some of these other more traditional nourishments.
00:36:54.680
that we can kind of win in the capitalist system
00:36:57.220
is to deliver something that is hyper-stimulating
00:37:22.480
which was if junk food is flavor divorced from nutrition,
00:37:33.000
Video games are thrill divorced from physicality.
02:01:57.400
understand play, it's easy for her to confuse that with aggression and carelessness and to
02:02:04.280
inhibit it then. And that can elicit negative responses on the part of the husband that look
02:02:10.820
like aggression. And so you get a terrible spiral developing there. And the retreat from it. Because
02:02:16.600
if the central thing that you have, the most important gift that you have to offer a child
02:02:21.560
is not accepted as valuable by your partner. Have you heard of anything more chilling than
02:02:26.240
frozen beef? Until November 3rd, get an always fresh, never frozen Dave single from Wendy's for
02:02:32.600
only $4. Nothing scary about that. Taxes extra at participating Wendy's until November 3rd. Terms
02:02:38.200
and conditions apply. Like that's, you know, like punishing people for their virtues is the worst
02:02:44.060
thing you can do. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I saw that how I see that happening in families all the
02:02:48.160
time. The fathers end up alienated from the children because every time they try to interact, they get
02:02:53.040
micro-punished. Yeah. And it just, and it just, after a hundred attempts, they just give up. It's
02:02:58.400
really not good. Well, you also pointed out something very important. You know, you said that
02:03:02.700
the children, if you watch your children, they'll calibrate their requirement. So one of the things
02:03:09.760
parents should know, because you might ask, well, how much should you be around your children? And the
02:03:14.620
answer is, well, it depends on the child. And so that's problematic. But the children will, like,
02:03:21.000
for example, children who need to seek for security will seek out someone to offer them security when
02:03:27.980
they need it. And one of the things you want to be, do as a primary caregiver is to be available for
02:03:33.900
that. Yeah. So you say, go out, go out and play. But if you need me, I'm here. And then the kid will go
02:03:39.720
out and play. And if something happens that's untoward, come back for a little bit of comfort,
02:03:43.580
you know, from the mother, let's say, a pat and kiss. And then that'll sort of put them back
02:03:48.140
together, reestablish that security, and then they can go out and play again. But as you said,
02:03:53.580
the child will choose whether it's time for some nurturance and security or whether it's time for
02:03:59.860
some boisterous encouragement. And that does tend to be somewhat sex segregated, which isn't to say
02:04:05.760
that, you know, a father can play a maternal role and a mother can play an encouraging paternal role.
02:04:11.020
But it does tend to differentiate itself sexually.
02:04:14.180
Yeah, I think it's really important for fathers to cultivate their capacity for nourish,
02:04:19.140
nurturance, and for mothers to cultivate their capacity for encouragement. We need to
02:04:22.960
be available to hold that bandwidth for our children as needed. But we also have to recognize
02:04:28.760
that we have unique strengths, right? It's like, there's just things that, like, my kids,
02:04:34.000
well, they're getting well-trained enough as martial artists that I can't really do this
02:04:38.380
anymore. But they, I used to just have an open rule. If they wanted to come up and punch somebody,
02:04:42.260
they could just come and punch me and it was fine, right? And so, like, you know, my kids can belt
02:04:52.600
Well, and even that, you know, even that's something that's frowned on. Like, I taught both
02:04:57.740
my kids to punch when they were very little, you know, and I taught them how to use their whole
02:05:01.700
body to really, you know, to really give me a good whack. And of course, they really liked that.
02:05:06.700
But the knee-jerk response to that is, well, your children should never have to resort to violence.
02:05:11.680
It's like, well, first of all, if they can resort to violence, they're much likely, less likely to
02:05:18.980
have to. And because they're not intimidated when the local bully decides to determine if they're a
02:05:24.460
target for harassment. Because they knew perfectly well that they had something at their disposal that
02:05:29.720
was likely to be effective. They also really enjoyed learning to punch. And I would say that
02:05:34.560
was even more true of my daughter than it was of my son. You know, he was interested in it and into
02:05:41.300
it, but my daughter was really into it and she actually got pretty good at it. And that ability
02:05:46.260
to throw a punch and to take a punch, that's pretty necessary if you're, well, engaged in anything
02:05:51.740
that's agonistic. And that's obviously going to happen to you when you're a kid because the bullies
02:05:55.920
are going to come and test you out. Yeah. I mean, I think it's my friend,
02:05:59.880
Rory Miller, who's a great self-defense thinker. He says, you don't get to choose the bad things
02:06:03.920
that happen to you, right? You say you should never have to resort to violence, but violence
02:06:08.960
can occur in your life. It's occurred in my life, right? I've been, you know, I've been hit by
02:06:15.320
caretakers when I was little, people who were supposed to be, you know, taking care of me when my
02:06:22.580
parents weren't there and happened to not be the best people. And then I grew up and I was a
02:06:26.600
bouncer for three years and been attacked on basketball courts and stuff like that. It's like
02:06:31.720
being able to handle myself is great. It also decreases the risk that something really terrible
02:06:37.120
will go wrong, you know, because if you are capable of defending yourself, you can calibrate your
02:06:41.940
response. Precisely. It's when people have no idea how to respond to aggression that really terrible
02:06:48.380
things start to happen. Yeah, that's the bite inhibition talk about with the dogs that we
02:06:53.060
talked about earlier. Right, right. It's the same thing, right? Like if you, this is a big problem
02:06:59.360
with the police right now. We don't have well-trained, physically adept police who actually have
02:07:04.380
highly calibrated, high competency and lower force levels. So when they meet somebody who's actually
02:07:10.740
physically dangerous, the only option they have is their weapon because they don't have any
02:07:17.000
lower level options at their disposal. We need to actually build people. And it's the same thing
02:07:22.500
in your life, right? Like I've, like I said- Have you offered your move play? Have you offered your
02:07:28.420
retreats to police forces? I haven't. I just recently got interviewed by someone who works
02:07:34.340
with the police and I've spoken to a couple of local police departments about these ideas, but I
02:07:38.800
would love to work with law enforcement. Yeah, man, that sounds like a really good idea. That sounds
02:07:43.400
like a really good idea to bring that calibration in. Well, especially for police.
02:07:48.160
Yes. Yeah, yeah. We need to calibrate people to the physicality. And I'll tell you a story
02:07:53.500
because I think this is, this is a fascinating example of like the way that kids self-organize
02:07:57.980
for these things. I saw a video many years ago of a, I think it was a Turkish man and his
02:08:03.940
son. And the son was sitting in the man's lap and he was slapping him in the face. And then
02:08:08.620
the father was slapping the little boy in the face. And it was getting harder and harder.
02:08:14.480
They were exchanging harder and harder slaps. And I felt really, really uncomfortable watching
02:08:19.080
this. But the kid was giggling and giggling and giggling. And I didn't know how to interpret
02:08:25.520
it at the time. But then when my niece was seven years old, she was sitting in my lap and
02:08:30.180
she just slapped me out of nowhere. And I remember really clearly this moment in my mind thinking,
02:08:35.540
I'm going to slap her and that's okay because I don't feel angry. And so I gave her a little
02:08:41.060
slap. I gave her a little slap and I was very careful that I hit her slightly less hard than
02:08:45.960
she hit me. And she looked at me like, she was just like, wow, wow, what just happened?
02:08:53.240
And then she slapped me again. And then I slapped her again. And then we did this game. And then
02:08:59.000
for a few months when she saw me, she would initiate this game with me. And then it was over.
02:09:05.000
She doesn't even remember it. But that was very interesting. So then when my oldest daughter
02:09:10.720
was about 18 months, she slapped me. Maybe it was a year or two years, somewhere around
02:09:14.760
there. She slapped me. And I did the same thing with her. I was very, very careful to calibrate
02:09:19.680
the force so that it was less than what she did. But when she hit me harder, she got hit
02:09:25.240
a little bit harder. And so she would do that with me. And then she never hit any.
02:09:29.700
Well, you know what you're doing there. Well, you think, okay, so you might say, well, you
02:09:34.160
never have to resort to violence. It's like, okay, fine. In a utopian world, perhaps, possibly
02:09:39.620
that might be true, although it isn't. But in any case, so you might say then, well, what
02:09:47.060
And what a slap means is this. Right? There's no explanation outside of the embodiment.
02:09:52.520
And so if a child slaps you, well, partly it's exploratory behavior. I mean, what does
02:09:58.980
this mean? And what it means is the response. And while it means this, whack, oh, that's
02:10:05.680
Okay. Well, that's interesting. It's like, what's the acceptable limits to that?
02:10:10.420
Well, you do that by that playful calibration. You know, and that can get pretty harsh.
02:10:15.920
And it should get pretty harsh because it should take you to the edge of pain, right?
02:10:19.660
Because that's where you have to see where, well, it's like teasing. I had a rule in my
02:10:24.740
house, which was, you know, you stay on the funny side of the joke because, and you can
02:10:30.240
push it right to the edge because that's where it's really funny. But past that, it's no longer
02:10:37.400
And there's a fine line, man. And it's the same thing you're doing when you're calibrating
02:10:41.240
slaps. It's like, what exactly does this mean? You have to play that out at an embodied
02:10:52.160
So it was such a fascinating experience to do that with her and to see that. And then
02:10:57.060
like kids explore, they fight with each other when they're little, right? They try to establish,
02:11:03.260
you know, dominance or whatever. She never had a problem. She never had a physical conflict
02:11:07.200
with another kid in school. And I was like, I don't know for sure. Obviously it's speculative,
02:11:10.920
but I had this sense that like, she got to explore these things at home. So she didn't
02:11:14.400
have the same, she didn't have the same curiosity. She didn't have the same lack of recognition
02:11:19.060
of what that context meant. And then interestingly, my son did the same thing, but it was different
02:11:24.700
because he hit me so much harder than she hit. And he wanted to play it way more intensely.
02:11:32.700
And it was very interesting because he would, she would slap and then slap a little bit harder
02:11:38.200
and then a little bit harder. She was really like kind of grating up, but he would get
02:11:41.640
excited and then he would rear back and slap me really hard. And then he would cringe.
02:11:46.760
He would know that he'd gone over the line and he'd be like, oh, you know, and he's just
02:11:51.400
a small little kid. Right. And I would look at him like, are we playing? Are you accepting
02:11:57.160
that you're, you've up the ante and now you're going to accept it? And he'd look at me and
02:12:01.100
he would, he would, he would relax and say, okay, no, I, I, I accept what I created. And
02:12:07.580
I would, again, always stay below his force threshold. But then he got to sense that if
02:12:13.800
you push, you'll get pushed back. Right. Yeah. And if you play with the right partner.
02:12:18.300
And also, you know how big the push is, right? Because you said he took bigger leaps. Like
02:12:23.060
he wouldn't know what the scale of the leap is without playing with it. You know, you do
02:12:28.560
that with, you can do that with dogs too, if they're reasonably well-trained, you know,
02:12:32.520
well, a good way to initiate a game with a dog is to give it a whack. Yep. What the dog
02:12:36.520
will do is bite generally in proportion to the force of the slap. Yep. And dogs find that
02:12:43.060
extremely exciting, you know, and so it's a very quick way of getting a dog to play. A
02:12:47.900
stupid dog can't do it because it'll scare it or it'll startle it or it'll bite or it'll
02:12:52.020
whine or something, or it'll pee, you know, it'll do something completely inappropriate.
02:12:57.200
Halfway. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it can't, it can't calibrate its responses.
02:13:02.840
But here's the problem, Jordan. We are a society of poorly socialized dogs.
02:13:09.060
Yes, this is definitely true. It's definitely true. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I see that. I see when
02:13:14.600
I'm walking down the street, you know, I see kids because I watch kids all the time and
02:13:18.760
I can just see kids lumbering down the street who haven't been played with. And I can tell because
02:13:24.640
their movements are low resolution. They're blocky. They're, they're inarticulate even in
02:13:29.740
their physical movement, right? There's nothing graceful about them. And those are kids too. Like
02:13:35.280
you'll see a kid like that sort of standing like this in the corner, you know, and you walk by and
02:13:40.500
he doesn't even look at you because he doesn't know how to initiate attention. You go up to a kid
02:13:44.340
like that and poke him and he'll do this. Like it's like a six month old response, eh?
02:13:50.020
Yeah. He'll do this. And then you poke him again, he'll do this. And if you, if you take a kid like
02:13:54.920
that and poke him a dozen times, he'll look at you, right? And then kind of wondering. And then when,
02:14:00.180
once he looks at you, you know, then you can, well, then you can give him a little shove or
02:14:03.840
something and, and get that going. But you see kids like that all the time who've never been played
02:14:08.740
with at all. They have no idea. They have no idea what's going on. They're desperate for it,
02:14:14.000
you know? And the really sad kids you'll see might take you 30 forays before you can entice them out
02:14:22.660
of their shell. And you can tell that not only have they not been played with, but that their attempts
02:14:28.620
to play have met with so much rejection that they're entirely demoralized. It's so sad to see.
02:14:35.440
I, this is another, um, so we've taken away unstructured play from children, which is a
02:14:43.580
disaster. Um, we have replaced it with structured play where we enforce win conditions that don't
02:14:51.000
allow children to self-handicap so that they can actually maintain the game so that it's rewarding
02:14:57.120
for all players. So we are punishing out the play drive in every way that we can as a, as a society.
02:15:06.520
So when, when you go to school and like, you're a highly active, high movement kid like me,
02:15:11.600
they're, they're slapping you down as much as possible to try to instinctify that drive.
02:15:16.640
But then what's really sad is then you take a kid like me maybe, and you put him in soccer and he's,
02:15:21.920
you know, having a great time with soccer because he gets to run and be physical.
02:15:26.860
Maybe he's one of the more talented kids and, and he has success, but then maybe you send him
02:15:31.920
to select soccer. And now maybe he's at the bottom of the pool of select soccer. And now he's riding
02:15:36.520
the bench. Now he's not getting enough exposure. Now he's not getting that 30% success rate that
02:15:43.220
creates that repeated bond. And now what's happening is you actually punished him every time that he's
02:15:50.320
engaging in physicality. And we see this over and over again through the physical system.
02:15:55.100
We're, we're putting kids where we're taking away their self-organized capacity to create a game
02:16:02.180
that's self-sustaining, an infinite type of game. And we're sticking them in adult, um, adult-imposed
02:16:08.080
finite games that actually will inherently punish some percentage of them.
02:16:13.180
Well, what percentage of, of elementary schools don't have recess now? It's a tremendous number. A lot of
02:16:19.180
that's insurance concerns. Yeah, I know. Insurance industry.
02:16:22.380
Liability concerns. Well, we don't really need, we don't really need recess. It's like, I see. So
02:16:27.240
the kids had a little bit of chance to play and now you've made that verboten.
02:16:31.760
Yeah. It's like, it's, it's, it's beyond appalling. So we should let, let me let you wrap up because
02:16:38.640
we're, we're, we're running out of time on the Daily Wire segment. Is there anything else we should talk
02:16:42.980
about? Sorry. I was, I was just about to initiate a, a chat that I think is probably way too deep to
02:16:49.500
get into about how we're simplifying people's behavior to make them more predictable. But
02:16:53.640
let's let, uh, let's save that for another time. Um, okay. You know, the big thing I want to say is
02:16:59.560
just, it's been a huge pleasure. You know, your work's been such an influence in helping me think
02:17:05.420
out these things that I was already experiencing, right? Like what I said to John was that
02:17:09.440
there's this emergent thing that was happening within parkour. And then for me with parkour and
02:17:15.340
nature and martial arts, when I, so I was teaching people and when I was teaching people, what I
02:17:24.920
noticed was if I told them a study and I told them statistics about how this would make them
02:17:29.740
better, it kind of went in one ear and went out the other. But if I told them a story about
02:17:34.880
something that I experienced that was transformative, you'd see their eyes light up. So I
02:17:39.420
started to recognize that narrative had power. And then I started recognizing that ultimately
02:17:45.060
the purpose of the meaning practice had to be beyond the, or the purpose of the movement
02:17:49.880
practice had to be beyond it, right? It had to be meaning oriented. So when I saw that first
02:17:54.120
interview with you and Joe Rogan, when you got to the port where you're laying out your archetypal
02:17:58.840
and narrative thoughts, it, it was this ignition moment for me. And I just, I absorbed everything
02:18:06.080
you put out, right? Between 2016, 2017. And I got to the end of that year and I couldn't understand
02:18:11.280
why I was so obsessed with what you're talking about at that stage. But I went to teach. And as I
02:18:16.600
was teaching, the stuff that I kind of had already brewed in my brain and the stuff that you were
02:18:20.880
talking about, it was like, boom, they came together. And I saw that, that fundamentally we have to be
02:18:26.620
nested in these narratives and those narratives have to be acted out physically. And that's how we
02:18:30.920
actually bring meaning into the world. And, and, and, and it, it, it just, it feels like
02:18:37.480
the, the physical practice, and it's not me alone. There's, there's other people who are,
02:18:42.440
who are evolving in very similar directions. The physical practices and how they can impact us
02:18:46.860
at these higher dimensions of, of ourself. They, they're emerging. They're emerging in a, in a way
02:18:54.800
that is reflective of the body of theory that guys like yourself and John have offered. And to be
02:19:01.120
able to bring that together and offer it to people is a really, just a huge pleasure. And to have this
02:19:06.900
conversation with you. Oh yeah. It's really, yeah, that's, that's it. I, if people want to experience it.
02:19:11.220
It's so cool to see this coming from the bottom up. Yeah. It's just see this, the, being laid out at the
02:19:16.160
level of embodiment. Yeah. It's so cool to see these higher order, abstract moral conceptions make
02:19:22.120
themselves manifest at the, well, at the lowest physiological level upward. It's a great thing
02:19:26.920
to see. Yeah. That's the material world reaching up to the sky. It is. Really what it is. Archetyptically
02:19:32.300
speaking. Yeah. It's so cool to see. It's lovely. So it was a pleasure talking to you. Yeah, absolutely.
02:19:37.220
Hopefully we'll get a chance to meet at one of these conferences that seem to be springing up. And,
02:19:42.060
and for everybody who's watching and listening, you, you can go check out Rafe's site. That's
02:19:47.720
evolveplaymove.com. Evolvemoveplay.com. Especially if you're young. Oh, sorry.
02:19:52.120
Evolvemoveplay.com. Especially if you're a young parent or you're dealing with young kids and
02:19:56.180
you can find a community of play practitioners. And maybe you can start thinking too about how you
02:20:01.460
could integrate the spirit of play into your own life, because man, that's something you certainly
02:20:05.620
want to do. It's the highest form of action. It's the real sign of mastery to do something difficult
02:20:10.940
with, with the spirit of play. It's a sign of, uh, uh, the highest level of neurological integration.
02:20:17.180
As far as I can tell, it's certainly the antidote to tyranny and probably to slavery. So
02:20:21.760
anyways, it was a pleasure talking to you today. Thank you to everyone watching and listening on
02:20:26.660
the Daily Wire Plus platform, to the film crew here in Saskatoon. And, uh, well, we'll, we'll
02:20:32.880
continue the conversation at some point in the future. Maybe we can have a chat at some point
02:20:36.680
with, uh, Jonathan Paggio and, and, uh, John Berveke. That'd be fun. That'd be amazing. Yeah.
02:20:43.000
Yeah. That'd be good. Let's do that. Thank you, John or Jordan. Jeez. Good. Good to see you,
02:20:48.860
man. Pleasure meeting you. Yeah. Ciao everyone. Bye bye. Have you heard of anything more chilling
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