The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 343. Parkour and Rough Play： Combatting Infantilization ｜ Rafe Kelley

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00:00:14.700 Hello, everybody.

00:00:31.000 I'm speaking today on matters psychological and practical, I suppose, and hopefully also

00:00:37.040 while entertaining and fun, as well as appropriately serious.

00:00:41.640 I'm talking to Rafe Kelly today, who heads an organization called Evolve, Move and Play.

00:00:49.720 And I'm very interested, have been very interested for a long time in the role of play in the

00:00:55.700 integration and regulation, well, not only of aggression, but also in the fostering of

00:01:01.860 pro-social behavior at an embodied level.

00:01:04.280 And there's a literature that has emerged over the last several decades indicating that

00:01:11.300 rough and tumble play, in particular, is important for kids at very early developmental stages,

00:01:18.680 probably from six months up to, well, who knows up to what level, till you're old.

00:01:29.820 And then that pretend play, which scaffolds in on top of that, is also of primary significance

00:01:37.780 in the development of the ability to act in a truly reciprocal and social manner, a manner

00:01:45.600 also that simultaneously fosters development.

00:01:47.700 So we're going to talk about that today.

00:01:49.420 So Rafe, why don't we start with a bit of your background?

00:01:52.420 Yeah.

00:01:52.860 Why don't you fill people in on, you know, your educational background, your interests

00:01:57.300 and all that, and then we'll start talking about getting more to the nuts and bolts of

00:02:01.140 play.

00:02:02.180 Yeah.

00:02:02.660 I think given that you started with kind of rough and tumble play, it'd be good to start

00:02:06.880 with my early childhood.

00:02:09.280 So I was diagnosed with ADHD and dyslexia at an early age, and my dad had had similar learning

00:02:14.740 disabilities that he'd really struggled with.

00:02:16.740 And I was kind of raised in that counterculture.

00:02:18.340 So my dad wanted to just take me out of the school system and just unschool me.

00:02:23.060 And my mom didn't.

00:02:24.000 So there was a big conflict there.

00:02:25.400 And my dad kind of reacted to that by just sort of pulling away from me and sort of emotionally

00:02:28.960 neglecting me.

00:02:30.080 So I was acting out in school and getting in lots of fistfights.

00:02:34.900 And I got introduced to the martial arts when I was six years old.

00:02:39.940 And that started helping me learn to regulate my emotions.

00:02:43.420 And then I had a mentor who came into my life who actually took over my education and started

00:02:47.860 homeschooling me after going into fourth grade.

00:02:51.780 And he did a few things that were really helpful to me.

00:02:55.120 He let me spend just two hours a day doing homework, and then the rest of the day I would

00:02:59.560 be out running in the woods.

00:03:01.200 But he also did rough and tumble play with me extensively, pretty much every day.

00:03:05.880 And so we would wrestle all the time.

00:03:07.600 And that became incredibly healing for me.

00:03:10.340 So through the martial arts and through rough and tumble play, very early on, I experienced

00:03:15.060 that physical practices could have this really transformative effect on me.

00:03:20.500 How old were you when that started, that rough and tumble play?

00:03:24.200 Yeah.

00:03:24.640 So my dad did a lot of rough and tumble play with me when I was little.

00:03:27.080 But then there was that period where I was more neglectful in our relationship.

00:03:30.200 Then the second mentor who came into my life came into my life when I was eight years old.

00:03:34.940 Eight.

00:03:35.460 Yeah.

00:03:35.680 Yeah, well, you pointed out something very interesting there with regard to your father.

00:03:40.260 I mean, I've actually seen that pattern in many families.

00:03:44.480 You know, and it seems so, for example, I've seen within my own extended family, thinking

00:03:50.000 of one couple in particular, where every time the father attempted to involve himself in

00:03:55.660 the discipline, let's say, which is really the attention and regulation of his son, his wife 0.96

00:04:03.320 would, in small ways and not so small, interfere in a rather punitive manner, treating her husband 0.93

00:04:13.120 as if his interaction, his involvement was both inappropriate, ignorant and dangerous, 0.81

00:04:21.120 something like that combination.

00:04:22.460 And my experience with that has been that what men usually do in that situation is pull

00:04:28.800 away.

00:04:29.980 Yeah.

00:04:30.480 And that's really devastating for the kids.

00:04:33.980 You know, like the mother has to put up a bit of a barrier because there should be a 0.99

00:04:38.300 little tension between the parents about how the kids should be treated.

00:04:41.880 And the mothers tend to be more prone to provide security and comfort and fathers to provide 0.96

00:04:49.940 encouragement and challenge.

00:04:53.380 And getting that exactly right really depends on the temperament of the parents and the temperament

00:04:58.240 of the child.

00:04:58.920 And so there has to be some tension.

00:05:00.620 But it's unbelievably easy for women to be overprotective of their children enough to stop 1.00

00:05:06.300 fathers from interacting.

00:05:07.500 And then what often happens as a consequence of that is the women then ask themselves why 1.00

00:05:11.740 the hell the father isn't more involved with the kids.

00:05:15.240 And often the answer to that, not always, but often is, well, you punished it out of existence.

00:05:20.740 Every time the father stepped forward to take an interest, you put up a barrier that was

00:05:26.200 non-trivial, a moral barrier often.

00:05:28.580 And you do that a hundred times.

00:05:30.780 Yeah.

00:05:31.460 That's that.

00:05:32.480 Yeah.

00:05:32.780 So anyways, that's a common pattern.

00:05:35.500 And so, but you had a lot of interactions with your dad when you were young.

00:05:39.440 Very.

00:05:39.680 Yeah.

00:05:40.080 I had a very good relationship with my dad.

00:05:41.520 My dad's a really interesting and creative person.

00:05:43.780 He, he's a famous natural builder.

00:05:47.160 And he was very playful with me when I was young.

00:05:49.240 He's a really, yeah, interesting person in that way.

00:05:51.800 But he, you know, he's a member of the counterculture.

00:05:53.880 He grew up, you know, my, my father was actually in jail during my mom's pregnancy for selling

00:06:00.020 marijuana.

00:06:00.840 So there was real conflict.

00:06:02.220 Like my mom had reason to be protective in some sense.

00:06:06.060 And my dad was, was, was struggling with, with some of those things, but we, he and

00:06:10.080 I have a great relationship now, but it did set me up for this, this, this sort of crisis

00:06:14.420 at a very early age that then was resolved through, through getting access to rough and

00:06:19.860 tumble play and then epic literature, which was also really important to me.

00:06:22.600 And so this guy that, the guy that started to, to play with you when you were eight, how did

00:06:27.620 that come about?

00:06:28.660 And why did your mother and father encourage that or even allow it?

00:06:33.680 Because that's also a place where, you know, people can be skeptical.

00:06:38.040 Yeah.

00:06:39.180 Yeah.

00:06:39.620 There's a whole story there, but basically we, we rented land.

00:06:43.300 So my, my dad owned a 12 acres.

00:06:46.060 There was a kind of a hippie commune.

00:06:47.580 And, and so we just rented a space to this couple, it was two men who'd moved in and

00:06:52.900 my mom was desperate for babysitters and he offered himself as a babysitter.

00:06:57.600 And then over time we just got closer and closer.

00:07:00.660 And so when, when my mom took me out of school, initially she was going to do some of the

00:07:06.260 homeschooling.

00:07:06.840 And then over time it was like the demands on her for taking care of the family financially

00:07:11.060 and taking care of my little sister were sufficient that it was very difficult for her.

00:07:15.720 And he was just there and, you know, was willing to do it.

00:07:19.320 And so that's kind of how that, that worked out.

00:07:22.500 So what I wanted to share was that as, as I kind of then developed, I was in, I was in

00:07:30.680 this Red Cedar Circle, which is a kind of Native American religious group in my early, my late,

00:07:35.980 late childhood, early teens.

00:07:37.800 And there were a lot of other young kids there whose, you know, whose families were part of

00:07:42.180 it.

00:07:42.340 They were two, three, four years old.

00:07:45.040 And so by the time I was 12, I started really being kind of just being asked to babysit these

00:07:49.220 younger kids.

00:07:50.280 And I noticed that they all had this incredible hunger for a rough and tumble play.

00:07:54.200 It was like this deep unmet need that I was seeing in children everywhere.

00:07:57.700 And so I started just being the guy who would roughhouse with kids at any social gathering.

00:08:03.860 And then people started asking me to come over.

00:08:05.520 When I was 13, one of my closest friends died.

00:08:09.780 Unfortunately, after a bike accident, he had his spleen taken out and he didn't get soda

00:08:13.480 properly.

00:08:13.920 So he hemorrhaged out.

00:08:15.220 But he had a six-year-old brother and his brother started having a hard time falling asleep

00:08:21.300 after he passed away because he used to roughhouse with his older brother every night before bed.

00:08:26.560 So his mom called me and asked me to come over a couple nights a week and just roughhouse with

00:08:31.180 this kid so that he could sleep.

00:08:34.520 And so I developed a really close relationship with him kind of through that same relationship.

00:08:38.620 So I got to kind of step into that role in facilitating rough and tumble play for younger

00:08:43.780 children starting as a young kid.

00:08:45.360 And then I went on to work as a mentor for kids in my teens.

00:08:48.780 And then I became a gymnastics coach.

00:08:51.920 So independently, I'd also developed just an interest in general athleticism.

00:08:55.180 And I started coaching gymnastics.

00:08:56.780 And again, I had these young, crazy boys with tons of energy and found that they really

00:09:03.120 just wanted someone who was willing to wrestle with them.

00:09:05.940 And so I've kind of done that repeatedly.

00:09:08.840 And I've really seen how much of an impact that can have.

00:09:15.480 And so when I...

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00:10:55.740 I first came across the play research through a man named Frank Francich in his book, The Exuberant

00:11:00.720 Animal, and I started digging into it behind that and then came into Stuart Brown's work.

00:11:04.800 And I'm not sure if you're familiar with Stuart Brown, but Stuart Brown was a psychological

00:11:09.480 researcher as well.

00:11:10.480 And he was looking specifically at spree killers, people who go out and kill a lot of people

00:11:14.660 in one go.

00:11:15.740 And he was looking for any kind of common trait in their development that would explain this

00:11:22.760 pattern.

00:11:23.760 And what he found was actually inhibition of play.

00:11:28.060 That if you look at spree killers, they almost always were prevented by their parents from

00:11:32.600 playing.

00:11:32.980 Their parents treated play as unnecessary and as something that had to be restricted.

00:11:37.120 And that this, he believed, was the center of that.

00:11:40.200 And then through Stuart Brown, I became aware of Yak Panksepp's work.

00:11:44.000 So later, when I came into your work and started listening to you talk about Yak Panksepp and

00:11:48.760 the rats, I was like, oh, yeah, this is it.

00:11:51.040 And then, obviously, you've written that paper on rough and tumble play and the regulation

00:11:54.860 of aggression.

00:11:55.640 And that paper was just like, yes, absolutely.

00:11:58.840 For me, because I was put in detention when I was in second grade because I actually bounced

00:12:04.920 a kid's head off the concrete and bust his nose open.

00:12:10.480 And it was only because someone was willing to go really deep with me into that intense

00:12:15.200 physical play that I was able to let go of that need to express the aggression in the

00:12:22.660 actual social situation.

00:12:24.220 And to develop empathy.

00:12:26.560 That's what I think is so incredible about what you've talked about.

00:12:30.300 And what I've seen is that we think that it's like just mocking out combat and building

00:12:35.340 the skills of combat.

00:12:36.260 But actually, what you're really doing is learning the dance of recognizing how your touch and

00:12:41.880 the way that you move with somebody, how that plays out in them.

00:12:46.680 And then that's that kind of really building ground for empathy.

00:12:49.400 Yeah, that mirroring.

00:12:49.960 Yeah, yeah.

00:12:50.900 Well, I have a great paper on my personality course website on the hypothalamus.

00:12:58.540 The name escapes me at the moment of the author, but it'll come back.

00:13:01.860 But it's on the hypothalamus.

00:13:03.000 People can go to my Psychology 230 website on my home website under courses.

00:13:08.580 And the gentleman who wrote that paper, who's a real genius, basically put a physiological

00:13:15.740 scaffold underneath Jean Piaget's ideas about the expansion of reflex.

00:13:23.000 And so, you know, we think of empathy as something like theory of mind.

00:13:27.480 Yeah.

00:13:28.160 You know, and that I can understand your pain, but that isn't, and it's conceptual, but that

00:13:32.780 isn't really how it works, because you use your body as a platform to run simulations

00:13:40.760 of other people.

00:13:42.260 Like I had a friend when I was a kid, and he didn't have a father, and he used to come

00:13:46.480 over when, this was before I was in grade six.

00:13:49.720 My dad actually stepped in sort of as a surrogate father for him.

00:13:52.740 And I used to wrestle with this friend of mine, and every time I wrestled, I got hurt. 0.99

00:13:56.880 He'd stick his thumb in my eye or some damn thing. 0.97

00:13:59.120 It was really awkward physically, you know? 0.99

00:14:01.020 And I realized even at that age, it was because he didn't know how to play.

00:14:05.700 And that dance that you describe of, that's part and parcel of extended rough and tumble

00:14:12.620 play, the reason it develops empathy is because while you're wrestling and playing in that

00:14:18.480 physical manner, you get to see, first of all, where you get hurt.

00:14:23.980 You know, how far you can be extended and how far you can be pushed until the excitement

00:14:29.640 and challenge turns into pain, and there's a limit there.

00:14:33.160 And you want to actually play right up to that limit, which is the exciting limit.

00:14:37.540 And then you learn that that's true of you and another person, but you learn it, you know,

00:14:43.380 right to the edge of your fingertips.

00:14:45.380 You learn it about your legs.

00:14:46.700 You learn it about your back.

00:14:48.020 You have to learn that about your entire body or you can't map someone else onto you because

00:14:53.520 you don't know how it feels.

00:14:54.780 Well, that's really a fundamental issue.

00:14:56.580 You don't know how it feels.

00:14:57.880 And so in that rough and tumble play, you're laying a level of deeply embodied knowledge

00:15:06.380 on top of emergent reflexes for motor control.

00:15:09.540 And then you're learning to integrate them into an interpersonal dance.

00:15:14.260 Panksep showed, this is research you made reference to, that if you deprive male juvenile

00:15:20.500 rats of rough and tumble play, which they do spontaneously and they like to wrestle, then

00:15:25.880 they play hyper-aggressively when you allow them to, like frenetically, desperately.

00:15:33.500 And, you know, which sort of reminds me of what you were saying about your expression

00:15:37.060 of aggression and their prefrontal cortexes don't mature.

00:15:41.440 And you can suppress their excess play behavior with amphetamines, which is Ritalin, for example.

00:15:47.520 And so what really seems to have happened, and this is an epidemic and it's an appalling

00:15:51.840 epidemic, is that we have all these boys who are likely high in extroversion and openness,

00:15:58.620 so very exploratory boys, some of them more disagreeable.

00:16:02.160 So that would make them also more, you know, less naturally empathic, who are absolutely

00:16:08.600 deprived of play.

00:16:10.380 And so they're desperately moving because they need to.

00:16:14.780 And then that's medicalized because the goal is to sit down and shut the hell up, even though

00:16:19.720 you're six years old.

00:16:21.440 And, you know, then the medication, the amphetamine suppress the play instinct.

00:16:27.000 And this is really not a good solution.

00:16:29.600 It's a terrible solution.

00:16:30.600 It's not a good solution.

00:16:31.620 It's a terrible solution.

00:16:33.120 I wrote an essay on this for the Good Men Project back in, I think, 2016.

00:16:38.580 It was just literally titled Rough Housing, Not Ritalin.

00:16:41.660 And that was exactly the thesis.

00:16:43.500 What you just said is that we need to provide cultural spaces for this rough and tumble play

00:16:49.660 to play out for young children.

00:16:51.620 And I experience it all the time.

00:16:52.960 I have, I told you before we started recording that I have a five-year-old daughter.

00:16:57.240 I also have an eight-year-old boy and a 10-year-old daughter.

00:16:59.060 And so I've been doing this rough and tumble play with them since they were little.

00:17:02.700 And they've started training martial arts when they were little, four years old.

00:17:06.760 And so they have friends over.

00:17:08.420 And the friends realize that they're in affordance to wrestle, which they don't necessarily have

00:17:12.640 anywhere else.

00:17:13.620 And so I get to see how a lot of these kids who are desperate for this opportunity become

00:17:18.560 very poorly regulated in when they have an opportunity for it, right?

00:17:23.580 They—

00:17:23.900 Yeah, what happens?

00:17:25.320 Well, they don't know how to control their force levels.

00:17:28.740 They don't know that, like, it's appropriate to, like, wrestle somebody and not to bite them

00:17:32.860 or to throw things at them, right?

00:17:35.380 Or they can't control their emotions.

00:17:38.480 So, you know, like, one thing I have to work on with my kids is because they've learned

00:17:43.600 jujitsu since they were little, like, they're used to doing chokes.

00:17:47.200 And I have to, like, make sure they remember because, like, if you put a choke hold on a

00:17:51.020 kid who's never been roughhoused with, they will—that will just destroy their emotional

00:17:55.060 regulation completely.

00:17:56.620 And so my kids, they don't under—you know, for them, all this stuff is very natural.

00:18:00.780 Yeah, yeah.

00:18:01.320 They don't—but they have learned, and they are learning, and it's amazing to watch how

00:18:08.000 well they can handle it.

00:18:09.920 And so my son, who's eight years old, he's a little bit smaller for his age, or he's

00:18:15.380 a third grader, and he's just kind of old enough to be a third grader.

00:18:21.020 So he's on the bottom end of that class.

00:18:22.940 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

00:18:23.700 So kids will kind of push on him because he seems like he's small, right?

00:18:27.620 And it's amazing to watch him just not have an emotional reaction and be physically

00:18:32.940 strong enough and balanced enough that when a kid tries to punch him, you know, he moves

00:18:37.600 out of the way, and he grabs them and holds them with his hand and just stops them completely.

00:18:42.260 Right.

00:18:42.760 So it's really an extraordinary power.

00:18:44.620 Yeah, well, part of what you're pointing to there is that emergent tolerance for provocation,

00:18:50.720 which is also really important later in life, say, if you're married, because you need

00:18:55.680 to be able to regulate your emotional response.

00:18:58.120 And of course, the most direct provocation is going to be the provocation that you experience

00:19:02.400 when you're directly physically challenged.

00:19:04.700 And to learn to stay within the bounds of acceptable play while you're being provoked,

00:19:10.940 which is exactly what's happening when you're wrestling, does lay the groundwork for civilized

00:19:15.480 interaction.

00:19:16.200 You know, a lot of people, when they're married, they can't really have a serious conversation.

00:19:21.080 They can't go down into the depths where the real reparation work might need to be done

00:19:26.740 because they're afraid that if they're provoked, they don't know what they'll do, you know.

00:19:32.680 And what do people do?

00:19:34.200 They break down in tears and have a fit, or they get aggressive, or they respond inappropriately

00:19:39.840 in an aggressive manner, and that can be physical very quickly.

00:19:42.540 And then they don't know what they're doing, so they're very awkward in their regression.

00:19:46.320 They don't know how to calibrate it.

00:19:47.720 And so because they don't have that underlying complex dance of, you know, provocation and

00:19:55.040 response that's all calibrated, they can't ever risk provoking each other.

00:20:00.900 Plus, the other thing they don't learn, which is really important as well, is that, you know,

00:20:05.700 if you're wrestling with someone and playing around, you kind of encapsulate the conflict

00:20:10.380 and you give it a space to make itself manifest.

00:20:13.940 But the rule is when you're done, you're done.

00:20:16.040 And then you just return to normal life.

00:20:18.580 And, you know, the other thing that people don't have often is they don't know how to

00:20:22.240 bring a fight to an end.

00:20:24.160 And so they won't start a fight because they're afraid that it'll never end.

00:20:28.040 And then they can't talk about anything important.

00:20:30.220 Like, it's, yeah, it's amazing how much of a catastrophe this really is.

00:20:34.300 So, okay, so we got to the point in your life where you were about 13.

00:20:37.820 Yeah, yeah.

00:20:38.600 Starting to be hired out as a child whisperer in some sense, right?

00:20:42.040 To, yeah, so that, well, you see that also.

00:20:45.880 That's a good analogy because you also see that with dogs.

00:20:48.840 If you're training a dog, a lot of what you do with a dog is physical play.

00:20:52.900 And if the dog starts to misbehave, the easiest thing to do with it is just flip it on its back

00:20:57.580 and hold it down.

00:20:58.380 It's like, no, when I say no, I mean stop doing that.

00:21:02.500 And, you know, you don't have to do that with a dog very often before the dog clues in.

00:21:06.640 Yeah, there's the parallels between, like, why play is so important in humans and dogs are the same.

00:21:14.500 Like, one of the things that I found early on in my research into what became Evolve Move Play

00:21:18.880 was actually I was training a dog and I read a book called The Serious Puppy Training Book

00:21:26.760 or something like that.

00:21:27.760 And they talked about bite inhibition in dogs.

00:21:29.760 And I said that, you know, puppies have to bite because that's how they manipulate the world, right?

00:21:36.520 Like puppies, like dogs, their hands are their jaws.

00:21:41.400 And they want to use them and explore what they're capable of.

00:21:44.760 So a puppy is going to want to jaw spar with you. 0.98

00:21:47.360 It's going to want to put its teeth on you. 0.95

00:21:48.940 It's going to want to put its mouth on you. 0.99

00:21:50.300 And if you tell that puppy no, every time that it tries to interact with you like that,

00:21:56.640 it won't be able to map how its mouth interacts with you.

00:22:00.460 So what he advised is that what you need to do is you let the puppy start biting at your hand.

00:22:05.660 And every time that the force is too hard, you pull away and you deny the puppy what it's looking for,

00:22:11.380 which is play, right?

00:22:12.980 And so now it's regulating its aggression to, okay, I need to only bite hard enough that this human being can tolerate it

00:22:20.900 and then he'll play with me.

00:22:22.840 And over time, then the dog develops bite inhibition.

00:22:26.360 So dogs that are not allowed rough and tumble play, it turns out, are much more dangerous as adults

00:22:31.420 because they can't regulate the impulse to bite.

00:22:35.240 When they bite, they bite fully.

00:22:37.100 But a dog that's been played with extensively has a very fine-tuned capacity to control the level of force in its jaw.

00:22:44.880 So it has a soft jaw.

00:22:46.940 Yeah, well, it's quite miraculous, you know, with dogs, given that they're essentially wolves.

00:22:51.480 You know, if your dog is well-trained, you can even play with him with one of his chew toys or his bones,

00:22:57.080 which is really pretty damn amazing.

00:22:59.400 And a well-trained dog is unbelievably judicious with its bite force

00:23:04.220 and it will also play differently with little kids than it will with adults,

00:23:07.680 which shows a tremendous amount of sophistication on the part of the dog.

00:23:12.100 But that also assumes that, you know, you've batted the dog around and wrestled with it and harassed it

00:23:17.180 and, you know, and pushed it so that it's not easy to provoke.

00:23:21.440 And that's also why, you know, people wonder why people tease.

00:23:25.320 And teasing is a form of more abstracted rough and tumble play.

00:23:30.760 And it's the same thing.

00:23:32.940 It's this attempt to push the object of teasing sort of to the level of their tolerance for provocation

00:23:42.440 to see what the response is.

00:23:44.140 It's part of the way that people assess each other profoundly.

00:23:49.060 Like, I told this story in my book about this guy, Lunchbucket, that came to work on the rail crew with us

00:23:56.220 when I was working on the rail crew in Saskatchewan.

00:23:58.360 And he, no one had ever played with Lunchbucket, that's for sure.

00:24:02.080 And it was pretty obvious to everybody that he was still under the unfortunate dominion of his mother

00:24:07.380 because she had packed him his Lunchbucket when the appropriate thing to do socially

00:24:11.920 was bring a brown paper bag that wasn't, you know, too special,

00:24:16.100 which was also interestingly true of our high school.

00:24:18.300 You know, and Lunchbucket didn't take kindly to being teased about his Lunchbucket

00:24:24.160 and the level of provocation that the other guys aimed at him just increased.

00:24:29.620 And it got to the point where people were throwing rocks at him when he was on the crew.

00:24:33.080 But the reason for that was because he couldn't be trusted.

00:24:38.520 If you provoked him, he would respond with too much aggression.

00:24:42.060 And that was an indication to everyone, even though no one really knew this,

00:24:45.320 that he wasn't properly self-socialized and then could be a loose cannon if the, you know, in a dicey situation.

00:24:53.740 Yeah.

00:24:54.000 And the other thing, too, I think that teasing, it's also an attempt to initiate play.

00:24:58.980 You know, like one of the things you see with kids is that when they meet each other on the playground

00:25:03.380 is they'll immediately challenge each other.

00:25:06.660 You know, they sort of start out assuming the other kid is, like, younger and less developmentally able.

00:25:12.660 Yeah.

00:25:12.880 But they ratchet that up quickly to see if they're at a peer-to-peer level.

00:25:16.360 And then they play on the edge, and that'll make kids friends.

00:25:20.840 If kids can play as peers on the edge, then they become friends.

00:25:24.620 And there's a lot of mutual provocation in that.

00:25:27.500 And that's partly the extension of that capacity for emotional regulation,

00:25:31.380 as well as the extension of the capacity for creative interaction.

00:25:35.840 Yeah, if we go back to that rough and tumble theme,

00:25:38.420 like, I made a lot of my closest friends after fistfights when I was in school.

00:25:42.580 It was like we had to provoke each other to that level before we could, say,

00:25:47.200 drop into a point of trust with each other in the kind of redneck culture that I was growing up in,

00:25:51.500 which maybe wasn't so similar to where you grew up.

00:25:53.860 I wanted to go back to something you said earlier because I wanted to reflect a couple of things

00:25:57.080 that I learned from your work, specifically in this idea of how the rough and tumble play

00:26:03.040 is this game that scales up, that what I think is so profound about,

00:26:10.840 like J.J. Gibson's work and some of these people that we're referencing,

00:26:14.040 is you actually can't see the meaning in the world if you can't act it out, right?

00:26:21.100 What we perceive is actually dependent on how we can act.

00:26:25.000 And so when we engage with something like rough and tumble,

00:26:27.940 we're actually mapping in the different potential meanings of touch.

00:26:31.820 And when we don't get that opportunity to engage in rough and tumble play,

00:26:35.540 what's actually happening is that we're losing the map of what a physical interaction can mean.

00:26:42.160 And the other analogy of yours that I really love is the analogy of resolution.

00:26:46.860 So how many pixels are in the picture that you have of physical touch?

00:26:52.760 And I think what's happened in our culture is that we've denied people so much basic touch

00:27:00.280 and so much basic rough and tumble play that we've sort of collapsed the picture of touch to sex and violence.

00:27:09.940 And so you'll see kids engage in play and you'll see adults who are absolutely on the edge of their seats

00:27:15.300 because they can't see the difference between healthy, productive play and violence

00:27:19.940 because they don't have a refined map.

00:27:22.600 Yeah, no, that's an extremely useful analogy.

00:27:26.700 And like everybody's map is complete of everything, but maps differ very much in resolution.

00:27:32.240 And that, you know, the biblical term for sexual congress is knowledge.

00:27:38.180 Yeah. 0.59

00:27:38.680 And that's partly because, well, sex is a form of play. 0.54

00:27:43.620 It's a high form of physical play.

00:27:45.620 And it's very properly practiced, let's say, it's extraordinarily high resolution.

00:27:52.320 And that's part of that detailed exploration of the physical landscape

00:27:57.140 and the increase of the resolution of the map.

00:27:59.800 And that's definitely all part and parcel of exploratory rough and tumble play.

00:28:06.920 I mean, part of the reason that people are loathe to allow their kids to engage in boisterous play

00:28:13.900 is because, as you said, their maps are so low resolution

00:28:17.040 that they can't distinguish between true aggression and pretend aggression.

00:28:25.160 And so there are often people who are afraid, for example, of dogs

00:28:28.320 because they can't distinguish a dog with its tail wagging, its mouth hanging open,

00:28:33.360 you know, that wants to play and is making maneuvers in that direction.

00:28:36.900 They can't distinguish that from an aggressive onslaught. 1.00

00:28:40.280 This is why you see in schools this idiot insistence that, you know, 1.00

00:28:44.660 there should be no competitive play. 1.00

00:28:46.840 Because the teachers who push that doctrine have been played with so little

00:28:52.660 that they think all play, which is a form of competition,

00:28:57.800 it's cooperation and competition simultaneously,

00:28:59.700 they think all that's just properly lumped into the category of aggression.

00:29:03.780 And then they think all aggression should be suppressed.

00:29:06.140 And it's, yeah, it's absolutely, it's completely, it's awful for young boys,

00:29:11.120 but it's awful for women too because the boys then end up awkward

00:29:15.800 with low resolution physical maps.

00:29:18.920 And, you know, they can't dance and they can't move

00:29:21.300 and their emotional regulation is volatile and, yeah.

00:29:27.480 Yeah, I think, to quote Jordan Peterson,

00:29:30.320 it's a complete bloody disaster what's going to children.

00:29:33.620 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

00:29:36.020 When I first started Evolve Move Play, Mercer Island,

00:29:39.800 which is one of the school districts that was near us,

00:29:42.160 had banned tag, like completely, no touch-based games.

00:29:46.120 And they had shortened recesses to seven minutes.

00:29:49.040 And their justification for this was because children couldn't play

00:29:54.060 for longer than seven minutes without experiencing conflict.

00:29:57.000 And this is just, it's so absurd because it's like,

00:30:03.380 how are they ever going to learn without these things?

00:30:06.520 Oh, yeah.

00:30:06.960 Well, the thing is people who do take that tack assume that

00:30:10.420 enforced zero conflict equals peace.

00:30:15.060 You know, when you talked about this experience you had with your friends

00:30:19.600 that often you had to fight with one or more of them.

00:30:22.300 And, you know, that's another thing that's quite different about boys and girls

00:30:26.120 because boys will often, even with their friends,

00:30:29.540 push conflict to the point of an actual fight.

00:30:32.760 And that generally does exactly what you said.

00:30:36.160 It either, if two boys face off each other and are willing to fight,

00:30:41.200 generally they won't pick fights with each other anymore.

00:30:44.700 That usually brings it to an end.

00:30:46.300 And it's not that rare for that to turn into a friendship,

00:30:50.660 which is also a very interesting and strange thing.

00:30:55.840 Yeah, it is a strange thing looking back on it,

00:30:57.960 but it was definitely a feature of my childhood.

00:30:59.680 And I wanted to go back briefly to what you're talking about with sexuality

00:31:05.140 because, and I wanted to touch on women in rough and tumble play 1.00

00:31:09.160 because, so we teach rough and tumble play.

00:31:12.200 We take the basic kind of architecture of contact improvisation dance

00:31:17.660 and mixed martial arts, and we build scalable games

00:31:21.100 that vary from totally cooperative to hyper-competitive.

00:31:25.860 And then we kind of, you can play a very competitive game

00:31:28.580 that's very safe by scaling the way that the players can interact.

00:31:33.820 And we teach this to men and women.

00:31:36.160 And now my general observation is working with kids,

00:31:39.200 the boys always want to roughhouse more, right?

00:31:41.480 My son roughhouses more than his sisters, for sure. 0.66

00:31:44.780 But the girls love to roughhouse with me 1.00

00:31:46.640 and have always requested being roughhoused with,

00:31:49.440 being wrestled with, being thrown around.

00:31:51.840 What I've noticed with working with adults

00:31:54.720 is that it's often the women actually 1.00

00:31:59.460 who have the most profound experience from the roughhousing.

00:32:02.760 And I think that what it is is that our culture in general

00:32:05.620 is just suppressing rough and tumble play.

00:32:08.060 But women are more likely to have accepted the culture's story 0.96

00:32:14.900 of you can't engage in rough and tumble play.

00:32:16.920 And there are fewer cultural spaces that really give them

00:32:19.480 the opportunity to do that.

00:32:20.620 So they don't necessarily play like football

00:32:23.120 or get involved in a wrestling team.

00:32:25.320 And so it's often women who come to us 0.53

00:32:27.300 who will say, this was incredibly healing for me.

00:32:30.300 And one of the things that they say is it really changes the way

00:32:33.540 that they feel about men and like helps the sort of gender conflict

00:32:37.400 to be able to experience doing something very competitive

00:32:41.100 and physical that has no sexual element with a man.

00:32:43.920 And that is really healing for them.

00:32:46.860 And to then bridge to the sexual aspect of it,

00:32:51.260 obviously men and women have to figure that out. 0.98

00:32:53.540 But there's also research that shows that if you deny rough and tumble play

00:32:56.840 to juvenile rats, the male rats can't successfully engage 0.52

00:33:01.340 in courtship behavior and mounting behavior once they become adults.

00:33:04.500 So if you look at the...

00:33:05.500 Oh, I didn't know that.

00:33:06.740 Oh, oh, that's very interesting.

00:33:08.840 Yeah, and you look at what's happening in our culture right now

00:33:11.080 with the, you know, just complete collapse

00:33:12.840 and the ability of people to form partnerships.

00:33:15.640 This, I think, is part of the story as well.

00:33:17.880 We're denying them the basic sort of sense of mapping

00:33:20.700 and touch and connection that is fundamental

00:33:23.040 to forming any sort of romantic relationship.

00:33:24.940 Yeah, yeah.

00:33:26.860 Well, this is also an interesting point

00:33:29.900 to insert some observations about cell phones.

00:33:33.580 Yeah.

00:33:34.320 You know, people are often extraordinarily concerned

00:33:37.120 with the content that's being delivered to kids on the cell phones.

00:33:40.760 And I think the content is relevant to some degree.

00:33:43.480 I spend a lot of time, for example,

00:33:46.140 analyzing literature on violent video games

00:33:49.300 and aggression among boys.

00:33:51.000 And the link between violent video games and aggression

00:33:53.620 is pretty damn minimal.

00:33:58.000 What appears to be the case

00:33:59.700 is that more aggressive boys like more aggressive video games.

00:34:03.300 And there's not much of a causal loop there.

00:34:06.860 So, and the reason I'm bringing that up

00:34:09.280 is to indicate that content

00:34:12.000 of what's being delivered on the cell phone

00:34:14.800 might not be the primary problem.

00:34:16.760 That might even be true for pornography.

00:34:18.600 What is certainly a problem

00:34:21.260 is the fact of the substitution of the screen

00:34:25.300 for such things as direct rough and tumble physical play

00:34:30.240 or even abstracted pretend play.

00:34:33.480 You know, a lot of this identity confusion

00:34:35.380 that I see among adolescents

00:34:36.960 in, let's say, junior high, high school and university

00:34:41.200 looks to me like late manifestation

00:34:44.780 of pretend play

00:34:46.700 that should have occurred at about the age of three.

00:34:50.200 You know, because at three,

00:34:51.600 kids will experiment with,

00:34:53.580 well, I can remember when my son was a kid,

00:34:56.040 his sister,

00:34:57.040 he's a year and a half younger

00:34:58.140 than his sister and her friends.

00:34:59.680 They used to dress him up like a princess

00:35:01.880 or like with little fairy wings

00:35:03.820 and, you know,

00:35:04.960 just as a form of exploratory play.

00:35:07.480 And he got an opportunity

00:35:09.280 to inhabit that feminine world 1.00

00:35:11.900 while playing with these girls

00:35:13.620 and to figure out what it was like to be a girl,

00:35:15.740 which is a necessary thing to do

00:35:17.980 if you're going to have some empathy for girls,

00:35:20.300 let's say.

00:35:21.060 But then you imagine if you suppress that

00:35:23.240 and that play,

00:35:25.880 even cross-gender play,

00:35:27.240 is never allowed to make itself manifest,

00:35:30.040 then why wouldn't it reemerge with a vengeance later

00:35:33.120 when the stage is set to make it socially acceptable?

00:35:36.920 Anyways, it looks to me,

00:35:38.020 the furry phenomena,

00:35:39.640 all that looks to me like repressed pretend play.

00:35:43.280 That might even be the case

00:35:44.480 for late onset autogynephilia

00:35:46.440 among the trans guys, you know.

00:35:48.740 God only knows why that cross-sex impulse 0.99

00:35:51.940 makes itself manifest,

00:35:53.120 but the probability it has something to do

00:35:55.700 with suppression of the physical manifestation

00:35:59.460 of the feminine spirit, let's say, 0.52

00:36:02.780 that could have been explored in pretend play,

00:36:04.820 that seems to me to be highly probable.

00:36:07.000 What the men are doing

00:36:08.220 when they dress up in women's clothing 0.99

00:36:09.880 is pretending, obviously.

00:36:14.040 You know, now there's a sexual element to it,

00:36:16.240 but that doesn't mean it isn't pretend play.

00:36:20.100 Yeah, I mean, I think we can definitely agree

00:36:22.240 that the suppression of play is really a problem

00:36:25.800 and that there's a lot of cultural downstream effects

00:36:28.660 that are going to be very hard for us to map, right?

00:36:32.380 And just how much of that is.

00:36:34.880 I'm particularly concerned, like as you said,

00:36:37.040 about video games,

00:36:39.560 not so much because, as you said, of the content,

00:36:41.760 but because of how they outcompete

00:36:43.500 some of these other more traditional nourishments.

00:36:48.000 This is kind of one of the fundamental areas

00:36:50.220 of my thought is this idea

00:36:52.000 that one of the most effective ways

00:36:54.680 that we can kind of win in the capitalist system

00:36:57.220 is to deliver something that is hyper-stimulating

00:37:00.060 that's very cheap, right?

00:37:01.880 So hyper-stimulating products.

00:37:04.360 A friend of mine who's a neurobiologist

00:37:06.740 who studies obesity,

00:37:09.040 he said to me that what the food industry

00:37:12.960 has effectively done

00:37:13.960 is they've divorced flavor from nutrition.

00:37:17.900 Right.

00:37:18.060 And when I thought about that,

00:37:20.340 I immediately had this chain of thinking,

00:37:22.480 which was if junk food is flavor divorced from nutrition,

00:37:26.440 then pornography is sexuality divorced

00:37:29.200 from the context of relationships.

00:37:31.400 Yeah, right.

00:37:33.000 Video games are thrill divorced from physicality.

00:37:37.260 And so you take these boys

00:37:39.180 who have this inherent aggression

00:37:40.500 and you let them play Fortnite

00:37:42.260 and they can play all day

00:37:43.540 without any self-regulation

00:37:44.800 from having the physical demands

00:37:47.220 of actual rough and tumble play.

00:37:48.660 They can practice shooting

00:37:49.940 and running and jumping

00:37:51.120 and all the things that, you know,

00:37:52.220 I did as a kid actually physically.

00:37:55.860 And that's probably not bad necessarily.

00:37:59.660 It's not that bad necessarily on its own.

00:38:01.200 The problem is that it's so easily

00:38:03.120 out-competes the actual thing that we need,

00:38:07.240 which is the real physical play.

00:38:09.300 Yeah.

00:38:09.580 Well, I saw that just recently this week.

00:38:11.820 I was out with some young people,

00:38:14.420 relatives of mine,

00:38:15.400 and I hadn't met them for years.

00:38:18.040 And we were in a social situation

00:38:20.220 for about 45 minutes,

00:38:21.800 sitting around a couch

00:38:23.580 and some living room chairs

00:38:25.700 around a fireplace after dinner.

00:38:28.140 And one of them was 13

00:38:30.160 and the other was 21.

00:38:31.300 And they were just on their cell phones

00:38:33.100 the entire time.

00:38:34.280 The whole time.

00:38:35.140 Yeah.

00:38:35.700 And I thought,

00:38:36.940 well, I felt very bad for the kids

00:38:39.300 because I thought,

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00:39:51.360 First of all,

00:39:52.200 I thought,

00:39:52.460 it's like,

00:39:52.700 what the hell are you doing?

00:39:54.120 There's five of us 0.97

00:39:55.100 around the fireplace

00:39:55.940 and you're on your phones

00:39:57.420 completely engrossed in them

00:39:59.400 and I don't know

00:40:00.920 what you're doing

00:40:02.020 on your phone,

00:40:02.700 but whatever you're doing,

00:40:03.760 you're not being here now

00:40:05.760 with actual people

00:40:07.160 and I think their whole lives

00:40:08.780 are like that,

00:40:09.580 you know,

00:40:09.840 and part of the reason

00:40:11.020 kids are so confused

00:40:12.080 about their identity

00:40:12.980 is because

00:40:13.640 their identity

00:40:15.000 is never played out

00:40:16.140 in the actual world.

00:40:17.320 They're in these

00:40:17.740 virtual delusions,

00:40:19.400 you know,

00:40:19.620 because what you're describing

00:40:20.540 is actually a kind

00:40:21.440 of delusion,

00:40:22.200 right?

00:40:22.360 It's an artificial world

00:40:23.420 that isn't properly mapped

00:40:24.760 onto the real world.

00:40:26.140 So,

00:40:26.900 delusional landscapes

00:40:28.040 of entertainment

00:40:29.320 and that certainly

00:40:30.480 is the case

00:40:31.040 for pornography.

00:40:32.300 Yeah.

00:40:32.520 So,

00:40:33.260 yeah,

00:40:33.940 so we,

00:40:34.840 so,

00:40:35.240 I mean,

00:40:35.820 this kind of gets

00:40:36.880 to the center

00:40:37.300 of my message,

00:40:38.740 you know,

00:40:39.440 like,

00:40:40.660 I think that

00:40:41.720 in order to

00:40:42.820 address the meaning crisis,

00:40:44.540 we actually have to

00:40:45.820 kind of invite people

00:40:46.720 back into their body

00:40:47.820 and that there are

00:40:49.040 fundamental reconnections

00:40:50.540 that we have to make

00:40:51.220 with the world.

00:40:52.100 We have to

00:40:52.920 renew that relationship

00:40:54.640 with the world.

00:40:55.560 So,

00:40:56.160 we've been talking

00:40:57.000 a lot about

00:40:57.780 the rough and tumble play

00:41:00.040 and I think of that

00:41:00.960 as one of like

00:41:01.620 four fundamental

00:41:02.500 or so let's say

00:41:03.660 five fundamental connections

00:41:04.700 we have with the world

00:41:05.560 and those are

00:41:06.900 kind of the internal

00:41:08.020 connections within the self,

00:41:09.360 the body

00:41:10.220 to itself,

00:41:11.920 the body,

00:41:12.420 mind,

00:41:12.800 spirit,

00:41:13.400 emotional aspects.

00:41:14.760 So,

00:41:14.980 I think of it as like

00:41:15.420 the somatic

00:41:16.000 and structural layer

00:41:17.120 and then there's

00:41:18.140 the body

00:41:18.640 to the environment,

00:41:20.360 how we move

00:41:21.060 through the world

00:41:21.580 and that's parkour

00:41:23.220 or gymnastics

00:41:25.220 or track and field

00:41:26.180 but parkour I think

00:41:26.920 is the most

00:41:27.480 kind of profound

00:41:28.360 expression of it.

00:41:29.320 It's the closest

00:41:30.060 to the sort of

00:41:30.740 exploratory locomotor play

00:41:32.100 that you find

00:41:32.900 in every culture

00:41:33.600 and in

00:41:35.140 and really

00:41:37.500 in all other animals

00:41:38.440 almost.

00:41:39.860 And then

00:41:40.580 you have

00:41:41.540 the object manipulation.

00:41:43.080 Human beings of course

00:41:43.900 are tool using animals

00:41:44.820 so right away

00:41:46.120 kids want to play

00:41:46.700 with sticks

00:41:47.100 and balls 0.97

00:41:47.500 and ropes 0.78

00:41:47.920 and manipulate them

00:41:48.760 and put them 0.90

00:41:49.560 in their mouths 0.70

00:41:50.020 when they're little

00:41:50.520 and figure them out.

00:41:52.240 And then

00:41:52.580 there's other people

00:41:53.700 which is the rough

00:41:54.220 and tumble aspect 0.65

00:41:55.180 that we've talked about.

00:41:56.360 And then the last

00:41:56.920 is I think

00:41:57.260 all of those things

00:41:57.860 put us in relationship

00:41:58.720 to something transcendent.

00:41:59.960 When we go out

00:42:00.600 and we do parkour

00:42:01.320 in nature

00:42:01.700 and we work with people

00:42:03.980 there's an emergent spirit

00:42:05.500 that you can experience.

00:42:06.820 There's a sense

00:42:07.400 of the broader things

00:42:08.420 that you're embedded within.

00:42:10.160 And that in order

00:42:10.860 to cultivate wisdom

00:42:12.720 we actually

00:42:13.580 have to

00:42:15.260 get all the way

00:42:17.740 down into the body.

00:42:18.580 All the way into

00:42:19.120 you know

00:42:19.460 like our friend

00:42:20.620 John Berbeke

00:42:21.120 would say

00:42:21.520 those lower three P's 0.98

00:42:22.860 of knowing.

00:42:24.060 The participatory

00:42:25.420 perspectival

00:42:26.400 and procedural

00:42:27.460 those have to be

00:42:28.560 played out

00:42:28.940 through embodied practices.

00:42:31.840 And so that's

00:42:33.080 you know

00:42:33.320 that's the center of it.

00:42:34.600 We are

00:42:35.240 tempted all the time

00:42:36.700 by these hyper-stimulating

00:42:37.820 products

00:42:38.300 that are designed

00:42:38.900 to kind of

00:42:39.920 grab onto those areas

00:42:41.200 of the brainstem

00:42:41.940 that you know

00:42:43.440 that evolve

00:42:44.540 to be rewarded

00:42:45.240 and direct

00:42:47.300 that behavior 0.86

00:42:47.920 into something

00:42:49.100 that isn't

00:42:50.660 what we evolved with.

00:42:52.400 And to recover

00:42:53.780 the wisdom

00:42:54.120 I think we have

00:42:54.640 to go back

00:42:55.220 to those body practices.

00:42:57.160 So let me ask you

00:42:59.000 some practical questions

00:43:00.240 because a lot of people

00:43:01.660 who are listening

00:43:02.340 they might not even know

00:43:04.360 how to initiate play.

00:43:05.760 You know

00:43:05.900 like people have asked me

00:43:07.000 to write a book

00:43:08.400 on parenting.

00:43:09.280 You know

00:43:09.420 one of the problems

00:43:10.640 I have with that

00:43:11.360 is well I don't have

00:43:12.080 little kids anymore

00:43:13.040 and so I kind of

00:43:14.300 forget what I know.

00:43:15.920 You know

00:43:16.040 it was never exactly

00:43:17.840 explicit.

00:43:20.020 Now

00:43:20.160 I was very fortunate

00:43:21.300 when I was a kid

00:43:22.160 because both my mother

00:43:23.260 and my father

00:43:23.880 paid a lot of attention

00:43:24.900 to me

00:43:25.340 and my dad

00:43:26.760 in particular

00:43:28.000 is markedly good

00:43:29.360 with little kids.

00:43:30.460 Oh wonderful.

00:43:30.880 And I think that was

00:43:31.800 because he had a really

00:43:32.920 really good relationship

00:43:34.120 with his grandfather

00:43:35.160 and had a lot of attention

00:43:36.440 paid to him

00:43:37.000 and so

00:43:37.300 that was just

00:43:38.260 an embodied practice

00:43:39.480 let's say

00:43:39.960 in our household.

00:43:41.380 And so I know

00:43:42.000 exactly what to do

00:43:42.940 with little kids.

00:43:43.840 You know

00:43:44.000 I'm not the least bit

00:43:44.940 afraid of them.

00:43:45.600 I know exactly

00:43:46.240 how to play with them

00:43:47.080 even if they're timid

00:43:48.060 I know how to poke them

00:43:49.440 and you know

00:43:50.280 jolly them into

00:43:51.700 a bit of a reaction

00:43:52.860 and to entice them

00:43:53.920 out of shyness

00:43:54.600 but I don't exactly

00:43:56.120 know how to tell people

00:43:57.540 how to do that.

00:43:58.400 So when you're

00:43:59.340 working with kids

00:44:00.940 who are awkward

00:44:02.220 and who have been

00:44:03.140 deprived of play

00:44:04.300 and you're trying

00:44:05.860 to entice them

00:44:06.800 into a game

00:44:07.460 you've obviously

00:44:08.600 thought this through

00:44:09.680 structurally.

00:44:11.180 What do you actually

00:44:12.000 do to get the kids

00:44:14.320 to play

00:44:14.780 and how do you

00:44:15.640 teach people

00:44:16.240 to play

00:44:16.960 with their kids

00:44:17.680 or with other people?

00:44:18.760 What are the

00:44:19.200 practical aspects?

00:44:21.180 Yeah, absolutely.

00:44:22.240 So when we're

00:44:23.260 inviting people

00:44:23.920 to kind of

00:44:24.940 begin play

00:44:26.120 there's a couple

00:44:27.660 things that we can do.

00:44:28.380 One is we can think

00:44:29.320 about how we constrain

00:44:30.180 the game, right?

00:44:31.160 So all my teaching

00:44:32.880 is sort of

00:44:33.320 deeply influenced

00:44:34.320 by the constraints

00:44:35.040 led approach

00:44:35.520 and by the ideas

00:44:36.480 of ecological dynamics.

00:44:38.560 So rather than

00:44:39.660 say trying to teach

00:44:40.460 someone how to punch

00:44:41.620 before we let them spar

00:44:43.060 we develop a game

00:44:44.700 that doesn't require

00:44:45.620 them to know

00:44:46.260 how to punch yet,

00:44:47.700 right?

00:44:48.100 So the first game

00:44:49.160 that we introduce

00:44:49.760 to people

00:44:50.340 a lot of times

00:44:52.080 in the competitive

00:44:53.160 aspect of rough

00:44:53.920 and tumble play 0.67

00:44:54.560 is just like

00:44:55.620 standing on a

00:44:56.500 narrow surface

00:44:57.300 and grabbing

00:44:58.500 the other person's

00:44:59.280 hand and trying

00:44:59.860 to pull them

00:45:00.380 and off balance

00:45:01.000 them.

00:45:01.760 So this is a game

00:45:02.420 that works

00:45:04.400 really well

00:45:05.400 to introduce

00:45:06.700 competition

00:45:07.260 because it's

00:45:07.980 totally safe,

00:45:08.940 right?

00:45:09.760 I'm not

00:45:10.340 manipulating your body

00:45:11.920 in any way

00:45:12.340 that could potentially

00:45:12.940 hurt you. 0.82

00:45:14.860 So when you say

00:45:16.020 stand on a narrow

00:45:16.820 surface,

00:45:17.380 tell me exactly

00:45:18.080 what you have

00:45:18.560 people do.

00:45:19.420 So like a common

00:45:20.560 one,

00:45:20.880 this game was

00:45:21.320 originally taught

00:45:21.800 to me by a friend

00:45:22.420 and we just did it

00:45:23.080 on like curbs

00:45:23.860 in a parking lot.

00:45:25.480 But you know,

00:45:26.080 a lot of times

00:45:27.400 at my workshops

00:45:28.300 So you're on the

00:45:28.740 edge of something.

00:45:29.980 Yeah,

00:45:30.320 so there's a reason

00:45:31.200 why that works.

00:45:33.560 It makes the

00:45:34.600 wind condition

00:45:35.180 a lot easier.

00:45:36.320 But also

00:45:36.800 it disadvantages

00:45:38.360 larger athletes

00:45:39.460 which is important

00:45:40.360 because the physical

00:45:41.140 strength is obviously

00:45:41.940 going to help

00:45:42.960 the larger athletes

00:45:43.960 succeed.

00:45:44.800 But because a bigger

00:45:45.420 athlete has a bigger

00:45:46.180 moment of sway,

00:45:47.700 their balance is

00:45:48.400 actually a little bit

00:45:49.020 easier to compromise.

00:45:50.400 So you can take

00:45:51.640 a small woman

00:45:52.380 and a large man

00:45:53.300 and if they're both

00:45:53.920 inexperienced,

00:45:54.960 the gap that you

00:45:55.780 would experience

00:45:56.340 introducing them

00:45:57.280 to just wrestling

00:45:58.360 is much lower

00:45:59.900 in this initial game.

00:46:01.620 And so people

00:46:02.000 can get a lot of...

00:46:02.500 That's cool.

00:46:03.020 So they just grab

00:46:03.860 one hand?

00:46:05.280 Yep.

00:46:05.680 It's hand versus hand.

00:46:06.580 And they just pull

00:46:06.720 each other off balance.

00:46:08.320 Exactly.

00:46:08.600 Oh yeah,

00:46:09.020 that's cool

00:46:09.480 because the conditions

00:46:11.700 for victory

00:46:12.260 are very,

00:46:12.780 very clear.

00:46:13.800 It doesn't require

00:46:14.500 a lot of aggression

00:46:15.160 to move forward.

00:46:16.540 It shouldn't be

00:46:17.120 intimidating to people.

00:46:18.560 The rules are easy

00:46:19.740 to learn.

00:46:20.680 Oh yeah,

00:46:20.980 that's a good one.

00:46:21.580 That's something

00:46:21.980 you can play.

00:46:22.800 I often,

00:46:23.360 with little kids,

00:46:24.200 like two,

00:46:25.700 one of the games

00:46:26.300 I used to play

00:46:26.900 with my kids

00:46:27.500 was just to step

00:46:28.320 on their feet

00:46:29.000 and they try to step

00:46:30.120 on my feet

00:46:30.700 at the same time.

00:46:31.680 You know,

00:46:31.920 obviously in socks

00:46:33.000 and you can make

00:46:33.900 quite a noise

00:46:34.600 with your foot

00:46:35.260 and kids find that

00:46:37.020 and they can back off

00:46:38.060 when they're,

00:46:38.520 you know,

00:46:38.980 they can back off

00:46:39.700 real easily

00:46:40.280 to get out of the game

00:46:41.520 if they're feeling

00:46:42.220 a little bit,

00:46:42.760 you know,

00:46:43.000 intimidated.

00:46:44.340 But,

00:46:44.880 oh yeah,

00:46:45.180 they'll laugh

00:46:45.720 and cheer away at that

00:46:47.240 and so that's an analogy,

00:46:49.040 I would say,

00:46:49.460 or an analog

00:46:49.840 to this off balance.

00:46:51.500 Okay,

00:46:51.680 so that's a good,

00:46:52.340 that's a good place

00:46:53.360 to start.

00:46:54.180 So,

00:46:54.740 I was playing

00:46:55.940 with my four-month-old

00:46:57.480 granddaughter.

00:46:58.580 She could actually

00:46:59.220 play this game.

00:47:00.420 Yeah,

00:47:00.680 it was amazing.

00:47:01.600 I did,

00:47:01.940 it's the,

00:47:02.220 it's the earliest

00:47:03.260 I'd seen someone

00:47:04.340 engage in truly

00:47:05.760 reciprocal play.

00:47:07.180 She was really

00:47:07.800 four months old

00:47:08.560 so I'd go

00:47:10.000 one,

00:47:10.840 two,

00:47:11.180 three,

00:47:12.060 hold her on my, 0.98

00:47:12.960 so standing on my knee,

00:47:15.000 one,

00:47:15.260 two,

00:47:15.480 three,

00:47:15.780 and then bop her head 1.00

00:47:16.820 on mine.

00:47:17.640 Yep.

00:47:18.260 And then one,

00:47:19.300 two,

00:47:19.540 three,

00:47:20.420 bop.

00:47:21.120 Yep.

00:47:21.340 One,

00:47:21.660 two,

00:47:21.940 three,

00:47:22.480 bop.

00:47:22.760 And then I started

00:47:23.580 playing with the gap

00:47:25.680 between the,

00:47:26.580 the numbers.

00:47:28.480 One,

00:47:28.780 two,

00:47:29.880 three,

00:47:30.300 bop,

00:47:30.680 you know,

00:47:30.900 to have an element

00:47:31.580 of surprise.

00:47:32.380 And man,

00:47:33.040 I'll tell you,

00:47:33.580 after 15 repetitions,

00:47:35.920 she got the game.

00:47:37.440 That's wonderful.

00:47:37.780 And so that was really cool

00:47:38.720 because it was,

00:47:39.300 yeah,

00:47:39.640 well,

00:47:39.820 it involved that immediate touch,

00:47:41.420 you know,

00:47:41.700 but so there's this,

00:47:43.180 it's kind of like peekaboo.

00:47:44.620 It's like,

00:47:45.040 there's a predictability

00:47:45.880 and then a surprise,

00:47:47.040 which is part of a game.

00:47:48.020 But it was,

00:47:48.640 it was a harmless initiatory game,

00:47:50.960 but it was really something

00:47:51.840 to see that she caught on,

00:47:53.620 you know,

00:47:53.840 and it's theme plus variation too,

00:47:55.860 which is something you see

00:47:56.840 in musical play.

00:47:58.180 Okay,

00:47:58.440 so you have people

00:47:59.240 trying to pull each other

00:48:00.120 off balance.

00:48:01.260 I imagine they're,

00:48:02.680 so how do people react

00:48:04.140 when you first introduce them

00:48:06.520 to that idea?

00:48:07.460 Like,

00:48:07.660 what's the range of reactions?

00:48:10.040 Well,

00:48:10.220 what's interesting is we,

00:48:12.020 in the past,

00:48:12.860 more so in the past

00:48:13.820 when people were less familiar

00:48:14.840 with my work,

00:48:15.500 I'd get a fair number of students,

00:48:17.060 almost all of them women,

00:48:18.060 who would say,

00:48:18.500 I want to participate in everything,

00:48:19.520 but I don't want to do

00:48:20.160 the rough and double play.

00:48:21.800 And,

00:48:22.240 okay,

00:48:23.060 we'll get to it

00:48:24.240 and you can choose not to

00:48:25.760 if you want to,

00:48:26.300 but you'll,

00:48:26.900 you know,

00:48:27.220 if you see it

00:48:27.840 and you want to do it,

00:48:28.520 please step in.

00:48:29.880 And what we find is that

00:48:31.320 people will tell you,

00:48:33.460 you know,

00:48:34.320 I'm scared of this,

00:48:35.420 I don't like,

00:48:36.160 I never liked physical aggression,

00:48:37.800 anything like that.

00:48:38.720 And you give them this opportunity

00:48:40.020 to play a game

00:48:40.960 that's highly competitive,

00:48:42.540 that has a,

00:48:43.880 that they have a,

00:48:44.820 you know,

00:48:45.140 like a relatively,

00:48:46.140 a sufficiently high probability

00:48:47.440 of winning,

00:48:47.860 right?

00:48:48.000 The 30% that Yock Pengsep says,

00:48:50.320 right?

00:48:50.640 And that it feels totally safe.

00:48:54.260 Everybody enjoys it.

00:48:55.280 Without fail,

00:48:56.080 for 10 years of teaching this drill,

00:48:58.960 I've not had one person

00:49:00.080 who's come to a seminar

00:49:00.800 who have not,

00:49:01.440 who has not been lit up

00:49:02.620 and smiling and laughing

00:49:03.740 by the end of playing that game.

00:49:05.420 Yeah,

00:49:05.620 I wonder what that laughing signifies.

00:49:07.760 You know,

00:49:08.120 when,

00:49:08.380 when I used to go work out

00:49:09.540 with my friends in Boston,

00:49:10.940 one of our games was,

00:49:12.280 especially during a bench press,

00:49:13.580 was to crack a joke

00:49:14.520 and make the person laugh

00:49:15.660 because you lose all muscular control

00:49:18.540 when you laugh,

00:49:19.400 eh?

00:49:19.800 Mm-hmm.

00:49:20.140 Which is extremely interesting,

00:49:21.980 you know,

00:49:22.240 because it's,

00:49:23.320 laughter produces

00:49:24.200 a physiological cessation

00:49:27.300 of the ability

00:49:28.180 to be aggressive.

00:49:30.000 You just have

00:49:30.900 no muscular tension.

00:49:32.140 And so,

00:49:32.500 there's something

00:49:33.960 about laughing

00:49:34.900 that's indicative

00:49:36.540 of genuine safety

00:49:38.500 and peace,

00:49:39.260 right?

00:49:39.520 And it's indicative

00:49:40.340 at a very low level

00:49:41.660 because it's pre-conscious laughter.

00:49:44.160 No one,

00:49:44.660 if you laugh consciously,

00:49:45.720 it's forced and fake.

00:49:47.660 It has to be spontaneous.

00:49:48.880 And so,

00:49:49.520 you see people

00:49:50.380 doing this competitive

00:49:51.440 off-balancing game,

00:49:53.780 let's say,

00:49:54.180 and you get joy

00:49:55.240 and laughter.

00:49:56.500 And that's,

00:49:57.380 I think that's a deep

00:49:58.520 physiological reflection

00:49:59.780 of the observation

00:50:00.620 that there really is

00:50:01.720 safety and peace

00:50:02.860 and play happening

00:50:04.520 in this space,

00:50:05.820 right?

00:50:06.040 It's a celebration

00:50:06.680 of that.

00:50:08.300 Yeah,

00:50:08.560 if we go back

00:50:09.140 to the idea

00:50:09.480 we were exploring earlier

00:50:10.380 that,

00:50:10.860 like,

00:50:11.480 these things

00:50:11.900 are actually fundamental

00:50:12.800 to how we attune

00:50:13.980 and develop

00:50:14.460 a real map

00:50:15.180 with somebody,

00:50:16.240 right?

00:50:17.140 What you could,

00:50:19.180 you know,

00:50:19.660 what I speculate

00:50:21.080 now just off

00:50:21.880 what you said

00:50:22.320 is that the laughter

00:50:23.000 is occurring

00:50:23.440 because it's a signal

00:50:24.420 of, like,

00:50:25.840 really rapid attunement

00:50:27.300 between two organisms

00:50:28.640 where they're actually

00:50:29.640 learning each other

00:50:30.980 on a much deeper layer

00:50:32.420 than even,

00:50:33.760 you know,

00:50:34.080 verbally is going

00:50:34.900 to offer.

00:50:35.760 But you'll find

00:50:36.280 the same thing

00:50:36.880 if you're meeting

00:50:37.980 someone and you have

00:50:38.540 a good dynamic

00:50:39.320 in a conversation,

00:50:41.200 they're going to,

00:50:41.840 laughter's going

00:50:42.300 to start to generate.

00:50:43.460 And I think it's a signal,

00:50:44.420 yeah,

00:50:44.700 of that sense of safety

00:50:46.260 and that joy

00:50:47.560 that you're experiencing.

00:50:48.840 Obviously,

00:50:49.280 that's telling you

00:50:50.100 this is valuable.

00:50:51.200 This is worthwhile.

00:50:52.080 This is something

00:50:52.600 that you want to

00:50:53.240 come back to

00:50:54.280 and repeat.

00:50:55.360 And so that sense

00:50:56.040 that there's a way

00:50:56.800 to compete,

00:50:57.540 a way to interact

00:50:58.700 with somebody

00:50:59.160 that's deeply,

00:51:00.760 mutually affording

00:51:02.400 of development.

00:51:03.820 Yeah,

00:51:04.100 right.

00:51:04.740 Yes,

00:51:04.980 exactly.

00:51:06.080 That's the spirit

00:51:06.800 of play,

00:51:07.240 that mutual

00:51:07.980 affordance.

00:51:08.860 I was remembering

00:51:09.900 when my wife

00:51:11.140 wasn't played

00:51:11.760 with a lot

00:51:12.420 when she was a kid,

00:51:13.500 you know,

00:51:13.700 she had a pretty good

00:51:14.620 sense of sharp

00:51:15.460 verbal play

00:51:16.180 and she was physically

00:51:17.460 comfortable in a lot

00:51:18.420 of ways because

00:51:18.920 she did a lot of yoga

00:51:19.820 but she hadn't been

00:51:20.460 played with a lot

00:51:21.520 and, you know,

00:51:22.440 I can remember

00:51:23.480 a couple of events

00:51:24.380 so we were mock

00:51:26.020 fighting at one point

00:51:27.060 and she came at me 1.00

00:51:27.800 with her fists 1.00

00:51:28.460 and I grabbed her hands 0.99

00:51:29.600 and I went like this

00:51:30.520 and it actually hurt her

00:51:32.500 a little bit

00:51:33.000 and I said,

00:51:33.540 well,

00:51:33.800 you know,

00:51:34.160 when you go like this

00:51:35.200 you open your hands,

00:51:36.120 don't you know that?

00:51:37.240 She said,

00:51:37.940 no,

00:51:38.220 she'd never played

00:51:40.400 enough to know

00:51:41.160 that, you know,

00:51:42.460 someone grabs your hands

00:51:43.440 when you have fists

00:51:44.120 and brings them together,

00:51:45.000 you open your hands.

00:51:46.340 Well,

00:51:46.620 so I showed her

00:51:47.540 how to do that

00:51:48.280 and then another time

00:51:50.060 she was sitting

00:51:51.060 on the couch

00:51:51.600 and I had a pillow

00:51:52.380 and I went like this

00:51:53.540 which means,

00:51:55.980 look out,

00:51:56.680 a pillow is coming

00:51:57.620 so I went like this

00:51:58.760 and then I threw the pillow

00:51:59.840 and it got her

00:52:00.700 and she,

00:52:01.620 you know,

00:52:01.860 she was a little bit,

00:52:03.300 what would you say it?

00:52:05.220 Surprised?

00:52:05.960 Yeah.

00:52:06.180 And I said,

00:52:06.680 well,

00:52:07.080 I showed you

00:52:08.800 the pillow was coming,

00:52:09.780 why didn't you catch it?

00:52:10.760 And she said,

00:52:11.300 well,

00:52:11.440 she had no idea

00:52:12.200 that,

00:52:12.800 you know,

00:52:13.200 one,

00:52:13.560 two,

00:52:13.780 three meant

00:52:14.220 look out,

00:52:14.680 a pillow is your way.

00:52:15.980 Now,

00:52:16.220 she,

00:52:16.780 her siblings

00:52:17.400 were much older

00:52:18.200 than her,

00:52:18.760 eh?

00:52:18.880 And so,

00:52:19.800 and my siblings

00:52:20.680 were very close

00:52:21.420 in age to me

00:52:22.180 and so,

00:52:23.620 you know,

00:52:23.940 I had more of that

00:52:24.820 intense play

00:52:25.700 than she did

00:52:26.400 but a lot of these

00:52:27.500 basic rules

00:52:28.400 of physical engagement

00:52:29.640 she hadn't learned

00:52:30.820 and so,

00:52:32.200 okay,

00:52:32.500 so now you're

00:52:33.420 putting people on the edge,

00:52:34.860 you're having them

00:52:35.280 unbalance each other,

00:52:36.260 where do you progress

00:52:37.020 from there?

00:52:37.960 Yeah,

00:52:38.320 so the basic structure

00:52:39.420 is we think about

00:52:40.000 what are the tools

00:52:40.960 that we can manipulate

00:52:41.880 somebody's body with?

00:52:43.200 So the first tool

00:52:43.900 that we allow

00:52:44.420 is just the closed hand,

00:52:45.940 right?

00:52:46.760 And then what's

00:52:47.660 the targets?

00:52:48.880 What parts of their body

00:52:50.020 can we manipulate?

00:52:51.000 So now we're just

00:52:51.640 manipulating hand

00:52:52.340 versus hand.

00:52:53.700 So we have tools

00:52:54.780 and targets

00:52:55.240 and then we have motion.

00:52:56.200 How do we limit the motion?

00:52:57.740 So that,

00:52:58.400 that constraint

00:52:58.940 of standing on the,

00:53:00.660 the thing,

00:53:01.220 it,

00:53:01.440 it prevents them

00:53:02.220 from moving fast.

00:53:03.460 So if you think about

00:53:03.940 a game like football

00:53:04.700 where you can spear

00:53:05.860 someone with your head 0.99

00:53:06.660 with a helmet on it

00:53:07.440 running as fast as you can,

00:53:08.980 this is a very

00:53:09.440 unconstrained game

00:53:10.500 with a lot of

00:53:11.180 potential danger.

00:53:12.200 So what we're trying to do

00:53:12.980 is just find ways

00:53:13.940 to scale in from there.

00:53:16.000 So the first thing

00:53:16.540 that we're going to do

00:53:17.120 is just go from

00:53:17.960 you can only manipulate

00:53:19.480 their hand

00:53:20.580 with your hand

00:53:21.240 to now you have

00:53:21.980 both your hands

00:53:22.720 and you can manipulate

00:53:23.680 any part of their body

00:53:24.820 below their neck

00:53:25.800 excluding their genitals, 0.92

00:53:27.040 right?

00:53:27.580 So all the safe parts

00:53:29.000 of the body

00:53:29.420 to manipulate

00:53:29.980 and now you're still

00:53:30.780 trying to off-balance them

00:53:32.080 and because you,

00:53:33.680 you don't have to

00:53:34.120 pick them up

00:53:34.540 and throw them

00:53:34.980 or anything,

00:53:35.320 you just have to

00:53:35.740 get them to step off,

00:53:37.120 you still have

00:53:37.620 a really safe game,

00:53:38.760 right?

00:53:39.560 And then as we progress up

00:53:41.700 we might play a game

00:53:42.560 like the game

00:53:43.200 that you mentioned,

00:53:44.020 trying to step on

00:53:44.740 somebody's foot,

00:53:45.640 right?

00:53:45.820 This is a basic tag game.

00:53:47.340 It's a tag game

00:53:48.000 of tagging somebody's foot.

00:53:49.300 So you can play games

00:53:50.240 like that where the target

00:53:51.300 is something like

00:53:52.480 just their foot

00:53:53.120 rather than trying 0.82

00:53:54.080 to kick someone in the head 0.91

00:53:55.020 as we would in Muay Thai. 0.99

00:53:56.560 But we're starting to learn

00:53:58.040 how to interpret

00:53:58.980 somebody entering our space,

00:54:01.000 somebody,

00:54:01.400 you know,

00:54:01.560 that gap closing,

00:54:03.220 the sense of rhythm,

00:54:04.120 the sense of timing

00:54:04.780 that somebody has.

00:54:05.540 And all that's going

00:54:06.260 to donate to these games

00:54:07.380 as we move down

00:54:08.600 the kind of,

00:54:09.660 the progression.

00:54:10.580 And then we think

00:54:11.220 about the progression

00:54:11.860 as working towards

00:54:12.800 the highly competitive,

00:54:14.420 highly free,

00:54:15.180 unconstrained games

00:54:16.100 like mixed martial arts,

00:54:17.500 but also moving towards

00:54:18.600 the highly attuned

00:54:19.720 acrobatic games

00:54:21.120 like dance

00:54:21.800 because we want people

00:54:23.000 to be able to

00:54:24.000 have that sense.

00:54:26.840 Your next book,

00:54:30.020 I believe,

00:54:30.320 is called

00:54:30.580 We Who Wrestle With God.

00:54:32.540 Yeah, yeah.

00:54:33.940 And so I was listening

00:54:35.160 to you talk with John

00:54:36.220 in one of your,

00:54:37.020 your first interview

00:54:37.720 with John,

00:54:38.180 and you were talking

00:54:38.560 about the idea

00:54:39.120 of like maybe

00:54:40.040 the right relationship

00:54:40.860 to God

00:54:41.600 is to wrestle with him.

00:54:42.660 It's something

00:54:42.980 that you have

00:54:43.500 to struggle with.

00:54:45.580 And my thought was-

00:54:47.020 Yeah, I never thought

00:54:47.180 about that precisely

00:54:48.100 in that embodied sense,

00:54:49.500 you know,

00:54:49.760 although obviously

00:54:50.660 when Jacob wrestles

00:54:51.720 with the angel,

00:54:52.420 it's physical combat,

00:54:53.900 right?

00:54:54.260 But I hadn't put

00:54:55.420 that extra piece in there,

00:54:56.680 so that's very interesting

00:54:58.040 and useful.

00:54:58.720 I'll file that away.

00:55:00.400 Yeah, so the question

00:55:01.400 that I had

00:55:02.000 when listening to that

00:55:02.760 is how can we become

00:55:04.100 the type of people

00:55:04.860 who can wrestle

00:55:05.480 with God

00:55:06.120 if we've never wrestled,

00:55:09.000 right?

00:55:09.420 Yeah.

00:55:09.660 We have to build that.

00:55:11.180 So I said this

00:55:12.040 to one of my groups

00:55:12.780 of students

00:55:13.260 and it was interesting,

00:55:14.480 it was the women 1.00

00:55:14.880 in the group

00:55:15.280 who said,

00:55:16.100 what if the right

00:55:16.760 relationship to God

00:55:17.860 is dance?

00:55:19.480 And I said,

00:55:21.140 it's both, right?

00:55:22.500 It has to,

00:55:22.980 it's got to be both.

00:55:25.680 So in the way

00:55:27.440 that we educate

00:55:28.140 people physically,

00:55:29.040 we want to be exploring

00:55:30.440 these two parameters

00:55:31.460 of how can we can go

00:55:32.400 deeper and deeper

00:55:33.400 into attunement

00:55:34.200 and the affordances

00:55:35.580 that come with attunement

00:55:36.560 and how can we compete

00:55:37.920 and press each other

00:55:39.020 right to our edge

00:55:39.920 as much as possible.

00:55:41.380 Well, it's interesting

00:55:42.080 that you've got

00:55:42.700 two poles there, eh?

00:55:44.040 There's sophisticated dance

00:55:46.120 as an extension

00:55:47.220 of embodied play

00:55:48.300 and then there's

00:55:49.400 sophisticated combat

00:55:51.580 as an extension of play.

00:55:53.740 And I wonder if,

00:55:55.300 is the,

00:55:56.040 do you suppose

00:55:56.820 the dance element

00:55:59.600 obviously maps

00:56:00.620 more self-evidently

00:56:02.400 onto male-female 0.73

00:56:03.400 relationships and sex?

00:56:05.300 Yeah.

00:56:05.680 And the,

00:56:06.360 and the wrestling per se

00:56:07.940 has more to do

00:56:08.920 with, I suppose,

00:56:10.140 something like

00:56:10.560 the hierarchical organization

00:56:12.020 of the social structure.

00:56:13.660 There'd be more,

00:56:14.640 because there'd be

00:56:15.300 some dominance

00:56:16.560 and submission

00:56:17.380 associated with that

00:56:19.000 and the attempt

00:56:19.600 to build something

00:56:20.260 like a hierarchy

00:56:21.020 of competence.

00:56:21.700 But it's interesting

00:56:23.320 that you have

00:56:23.880 those two end extensions

00:56:26.540 for,

00:56:27.860 that play makes

00:56:28.980 itself manifest

00:56:29.740 in relationship to.

00:56:31.900 And, yeah,

00:56:33.080 I don't know exactly

00:56:34.160 how to conceptualize that.

00:56:35.920 Well, let me tell you

00:56:36.600 something.

00:56:36.860 This reminds me

00:56:37.320 of something of

00:56:37.700 another way

00:56:38.280 that I've kind of

00:56:38.840 like taken some ideas

00:56:40.360 that I got from you

00:56:41.100 and extended them

00:56:41.720 in my work.

00:56:42.720 But you've talked

00:56:44.160 about the idea

00:56:44.680 that, you know,

00:56:45.600 dominance hierarchies

00:56:46.400 are older than trees,

00:56:47.740 right?

00:56:48.240 You can,

00:56:49.060 you can look

00:56:50.220 across the animal kingdom

00:56:51.260 and find that there's

00:56:52.460 forms of non-lethal

00:56:53.640 agonistic combat

00:56:54.660 by which we

00:56:56.140 determine the

00:56:57.240 dominance hierarchy.

00:56:58.580 So, what's fascinating

00:57:00.320 about like

00:57:01.080 Yach Pengsep's rats is-

00:57:02.020 We should call it

00:57:02.780 the competence hierarchy.

00:57:04.700 Yes, I agree.

00:57:06.000 I agree.

00:57:07.040 Absolutely.

00:57:07.940 So, the competence hierarchy. 0.76

00:57:09.100 So, rats,

00:57:11.120 when they wrestle,

00:57:12.480 they pin each other

00:57:13.280 on their shoulders.

00:57:14.540 This is fascinating

00:57:15.340 because it's almost

00:57:16.460 a cultural universal

00:57:17.360 that there's some form

00:57:18.360 of wrestling

00:57:18.900 that involves

00:57:19.880 pinning the other guy 1.00

00:57:20.720 on his back.

00:57:21.760 And we see this

00:57:22.520 across the animal kingdom.

00:57:23.640 If guanas,

00:57:25.240 right,

00:57:25.500 like big lizards

00:57:26.400 in Australia,

00:57:30.020 they wrestle

00:57:30.820 and knock each other 0.58

00:57:31.660 over and get on top of,

00:57:33.120 you know,

00:57:33.380 one's pushing the other

00:57:34.060 one down on the belly. 0.99

00:57:34.940 Even venomous snakes

00:57:36.120 will wrap each other

00:57:37.560 around the head

00:57:38.500 and try to press

00:57:39.120 the other one's head

00:57:39.720 to the ground.

00:57:40.920 So, I think

00:57:41.660 that this,

00:57:42.540 that there's this

00:57:43.440 central problem

00:57:44.920 that animals had

00:57:47.200 which was

00:57:47.840 there are better places

00:57:49.740 to be

00:57:50.040 and worse places

00:57:50.620 to be.

00:57:50.960 And we want to determine

00:57:52.080 who gets to be

00:57:52.660 in the better places

00:57:53.440 and who has to be

00:57:54.860 in the worst places.

00:57:55.640 And we want to do that

00:57:56.300 in a way that's going to be

00:57:56.960 minimally damaging

00:57:57.980 to everybody.

00:57:59.140 So, we're going to develop

00:57:59.960 a way of...

00:58:00.780 Right, so it's the best way

00:58:01.220 of making,

00:58:02.200 it's the best way

00:58:02.940 of coping

00:58:03.980 with those occasions

00:58:05.860 when the competition

00:58:07.140 does have a zero-sum

00:58:08.560 element to it.

00:58:09.340 Yep.

00:58:09.840 Yeah, exactly.

00:58:10.960 So,

00:58:11.560 but here's the interesting thing

00:58:12.700 is how the non-zero-sum

00:58:14.980 evolves out of the zero-sum.

00:58:17.040 So, first we have this, 0.99

00:58:18.580 we're going to kill 1.00

00:58:19.620 each other first 0.99

00:58:20.300 and then that's really expensive.

00:58:21.580 Let's not do that.

00:58:22.220 Is there a way

00:58:22.720 that we can play

00:58:23.320 where we're not going

00:58:23.820 to kill each other? 0.63

00:58:24.800 So, a venomous snake

00:58:25.900 doesn't bite with its venom.

00:58:27.080 It doesn't waste that.

00:58:28.100 It wrestles

00:58:28.840 in order to determine

00:58:29.640 the hierarchy.

00:58:30.920 So, now when we wrestle,

00:58:32.200 once we have that,

00:58:33.740 we have this capacity

00:58:34.780 to exact

00:58:35.520 that basic structure

00:58:36.760 to say,

00:58:38.000 hey, you and I,

00:58:38.780 we can play this game

00:58:39.640 when it's not about

00:58:40.800 actually determining

00:58:41.520 the competence hierarchy.

00:58:43.000 It's just about

00:58:43.800 building our competence

00:58:44.700 for when the real

00:58:45.920 problem happens.

00:58:47.880 So, now all these animals

00:58:50.480 have this basic drive

00:58:51.460 to engage

00:58:52.360 in some kind of

00:58:54.400 competitive wrestling

00:58:57.140 because it helps them

00:58:59.300 develop social competence.

00:59:01.300 But now,

00:59:02.860 all these other things

00:59:03.720 can get mapped into it.

00:59:04.720 It can get exacted

00:59:05.660 to be something

00:59:06.740 that's building empathy.

00:59:08.160 So, as we become

00:59:09.060 social animals,

00:59:10.580 now we are actually

00:59:11.420 going to this

00:59:12.200 as a place

00:59:12.920 by which we begin

00:59:14.420 to map in

00:59:15.280 a sense of

00:59:15.860 what the other is.

00:59:16.980 We develop

00:59:17.360 theory of mind.

00:59:18.340 That stuff about

00:59:19.140 Yak Pengsep's rats 0.98

00:59:20.120 and the fact that

00:59:20.820 the bigger rat

00:59:22.480 has to be able

00:59:23.060 to know

00:59:23.760 that if it wins

00:59:25.140 too often,

00:59:25.860 the small rat

00:59:26.440 won't play with him.

00:59:27.780 That's the beginning

00:59:28.800 of theory of mind.

00:59:30.380 Yeah, well,

00:59:30.860 I think the rats

00:59:31.600 must be evaluating,

00:59:33.100 you know,

00:59:33.360 because imagine

00:59:34.020 that in each game

00:59:35.060 there's a series

00:59:36.640 of micro victories

00:59:38.200 and micro defeats.

00:59:39.760 Yep.

00:59:39.900 And if you keep

00:59:40.880 the ratio of victory

00:59:42.580 high enough

00:59:43.280 for your opponent,

00:59:44.800 ratio of victory

00:59:45.500 to defeat,

00:59:46.380 they're going to be

00:59:47.040 enthusiastic play partners.

00:59:49.480 Yep.

00:59:49.680 And you're constantly

00:59:50.540 available.

00:59:51.000 Like, when I was teaching

00:59:52.140 my kids to play ping pong,

00:59:54.020 you know,

00:59:55.060 they weren't going to win,

00:59:56.880 but they weren't going

00:59:57.600 to lose 21-0.

00:59:59.620 Yeah.

01:00:00.060 You know,

01:00:00.320 I would just ratchet up

01:00:01.620 my skill level

01:00:02.940 so that I kept them

01:00:04.000 on the edge

01:00:04.520 of their performance

01:00:05.340 and that meant that,

01:00:06.600 well,

01:00:06.780 they'd gain as many points

01:00:08.100 as I could allow them

01:00:08.900 to gain.

01:00:09.460 I still see that

01:00:10.280 with my son,

01:00:11.140 you know,

01:00:11.480 because I taught him

01:00:12.200 to play ping pong

01:00:12.900 and then he got better

01:00:13.720 than me because he learned

01:00:14.900 all my tricks

01:00:15.560 and his new tricks.

01:00:16.700 And, you know,

01:00:18.500 it'll be frequently

01:00:19.520 the case that I'm

01:00:20.920 ahead of him,

01:00:21.840 say, 17-13

01:00:23.180 near the end of a game

01:00:24.800 and then he'll really

01:00:25.940 kick into high gear.

01:00:27.620 Yeah.

01:00:27.840 You know,

01:00:28.100 and it's very annoying

01:00:28.960 because I've been

01:00:30.220 working pretty hard

01:00:31.100 on my edge

01:00:31.680 trying to give him

01:00:32.340 a good stomping,

01:00:33.400 but he has some

01:00:34.200 left in reserve,

01:00:35.280 you know,

01:00:35.560 but he's calibrating.

01:00:37.580 We automatically

01:00:38.480 calibrate if we're

01:00:39.460 sophisticated players

01:00:40.520 to keep our partner

01:00:41.500 on that dynamic

01:00:42.460 edge of development.

01:00:44.040 This is also why

01:00:45.060 it's so wrong

01:00:45.760 to think about competition

01:00:47.020 as a zero-sum process

01:00:49.100 because if you're

01:00:50.000 competing optimally,

01:00:51.160 first of all,

01:00:51.700 you want a well-matched

01:00:52.620 partner because otherwise

01:00:54.060 it's not a fair game

01:00:55.260 and it's no fun,

01:00:56.560 but if you're competing

01:00:57.400 optimally,

01:00:58.580 your opponent has

01:00:59.920 micro-victories

01:01:00.880 the whole way along 0.62

01:01:01.940 and the rats

01:01:02.740 must pick that up,

01:01:03.860 you know, 0.99

01:01:04.020 the big rat 0.88

01:01:04.720 must understand 0.89

01:01:06.060 that if he's

01:01:06.640 dominating too heavily,

01:01:08.320 the game starts

01:01:09.180 to become no fun

01:01:10.100 because the little rat 0.84

01:01:11.100 gets demoralized 0.94

01:01:12.240 and then won't put up

01:01:13.560 a good scrap.

01:01:14.920 You've got to,

01:01:15.680 and you do the same

01:01:16.440 thing with puppies, 0.91

01:01:17.420 you know,

01:01:17.720 as you,

01:01:18.280 you let them win

01:01:20.140 as much as is appropriate

01:01:21.500 and it's the same

01:01:22.320 with your kids.

01:01:23.000 You let them win

01:01:23.700 as much as is appropriate,

01:01:25.280 but no more than that

01:01:26.480 and you do that

01:01:27.200 while simultaneously

01:01:28.620 scaffolding their mastery.

01:01:30.760 Yeah,

01:01:31.100 you're working

01:01:32.140 to put them

01:01:33.040 on that zone

01:01:34.180 of proximal development,

01:01:35.840 right?

01:01:36.600 Yeah,

01:01:36.900 yeah,

01:01:37.120 yeah.

01:01:37.200 And so that's the,

01:01:38.360 that's the key

01:01:39.000 to good play

01:01:39.620 and that's what,

01:01:40.300 you know,

01:01:41.080 we think is so important

01:01:42.340 about like a actual

01:01:44.140 rough and tumble curriculum

01:01:45.180 is that it's about

01:01:46.580 educating people

01:01:47.440 about how to,

01:01:48.560 in the deepest

01:01:49.160 embodied sense,

01:01:50.560 find that edge

01:01:52.060 in mixed partnerships,

01:01:54.200 right?

01:01:54.420 Where there is

01:01:55.180 a massive skill gap.

01:01:56.320 How could I play

01:01:57.200 as someone who's,

01:01:58.280 you know,

01:01:58.520 six foot one,

01:01:59.200 220 pounds,

01:01:59.980 has been training

01:02:00.380 martial arts

01:02:00.820 my whole life

01:02:01.580 with a small woman

01:02:03.260 and make the game

01:02:04.420 such that she gets

01:02:05.620 something out of it

01:02:06.240 and I even get

01:02:06.880 something out of it.

01:02:08.560 Yeah,

01:02:09.220 yeah.

01:02:09.740 Well,

01:02:09.940 how do you,

01:02:10.360 how do you do it?

01:02:11.740 Well,

01:02:12.020 let's take that

01:02:12.640 as an example.

01:02:13.480 So you have this

01:02:14.340 large set of

01:02:15.440 embodied skills

01:02:16.560 and now you're

01:02:17.400 playing with an opponent

01:02:18.340 that is not matched

01:02:21.240 at the,

01:02:22.380 like the,

01:02:23.280 the edge of your skill set.

01:02:25.900 Part of the way

01:02:26.720 you do that,

01:02:27.360 for example,

01:02:27.840 is by imposing

01:02:29.620 arbitrary limitations

01:02:31.120 on the player

01:02:31.880 so they have to

01:02:32.600 stand on the edge

01:02:33.580 of a curb.

01:02:34.560 What else do you do

01:02:35.500 to limit yourself

01:02:36.720 when you're dealing

01:02:37.820 with a less able partner

01:02:39.300 so that the game

01:02:40.260 is still fun for you?

01:02:41.540 Yeah.

01:02:41.940 So in the,

01:02:43.320 in the play research,

01:02:44.240 they talk about

01:02:44.800 self-handicapping.

01:02:46.220 You know,

01:02:46.600 a classic example

01:02:47.740 maybe anybody's seen

01:02:48.700 is a very large dog

01:02:50.020 playing with a very small dog.

01:02:51.760 So if you'll see

01:02:52.380 a Great Dane

01:02:52.980 playing with Chihuahua,

01:02:53.860 the Great Dane

01:02:54.240 will flop on its back

01:02:55.560 so that the Chihuahua

01:02:56.820 can jaw spar with it,

01:02:58.320 right?

01:02:58.680 So it's given up

01:02:59.440 all its capacity to move

01:03:00.840 just so that the game

01:03:01.960 can play out

01:03:02.620 in a way that works for both.

01:03:04.040 So we're trying

01:03:04.940 to educate people

01:03:05.820 as well as we move them

01:03:07.180 through these stages

01:03:08.060 to learn how to self-handicap

01:03:10.040 in ways that are

01:03:11.600 appropriate for them.

01:03:12.960 So I work on this

01:03:13.580 with my kids, right?

01:03:14.860 So my,

01:03:16.100 my,

01:03:16.680 if my son is wrestling,

01:03:17.900 my eight-year-old son

01:03:18.800 is wrestling with my five-year-old,

01:03:20.580 it's like,

01:03:21.660 how can you limit yourself

01:03:23.260 in the game

01:03:23.920 such that it's actually

01:03:26.160 now a fair fight

01:03:27.680 and it's useful

01:03:28.620 for both of you.

01:03:29.720 So for myself,

01:03:30.500 if I was sparring

01:03:31.380 with somebody,

01:03:32.540 right,

01:03:32.800 I could switch

01:03:33.320 to my offside.

01:03:34.080 I'm a dominant,

01:03:34.880 you know,

01:03:35.500 left-hand forward.

01:03:36.780 So now I have to fight

01:03:37.480 with the other side.

01:03:38.080 I can remove a hand.

01:03:39.300 I can't,

01:03:39.680 I can't use both my hands.

01:03:41.280 I can create a set

01:03:42.620 of techniques

01:03:43.160 that I have to use.

01:03:44.960 So I can only use,

01:03:46.700 I can,

01:03:47.220 I only get a,

01:03:48.120 you know,

01:03:48.300 I only give myself

01:03:49.120 a point if I do this thing,

01:03:50.700 not,

01:03:50.820 not some set of other things

01:03:52.160 that I might be really good at.

01:03:53.340 Right, right.

01:03:54.780 I can limit my motion.

01:03:56.000 So you adopt a set

01:03:56.860 of limitations

01:03:57.640 until you're evenly matched,

01:03:59.660 essentially.

01:04:00.460 Yep,

01:04:00.760 that's the goal,

01:04:01.400 is how do I find

01:04:02.100 that level of limitation?

01:04:03.180 So for my son

01:04:05.340 and my daughter,

01:04:06.020 they might have a race 0.52

01:04:06.900 and I might say,

01:04:07.580 okay,

01:04:08.080 you guys want a race,

01:04:09.520 we can put her ahead

01:04:11.920 or we can maybe

01:04:12.900 have you run

01:04:13.680 on all fours

01:04:14.360 and she gets to run

01:04:15.120 on her feet.

01:04:16.220 And then they get something

01:04:17.240 that's mutually rewarding.

01:04:19.720 Right,

01:04:20.540 right,

01:04:20.920 right.

01:04:21.160 So let's talk

01:04:23.240 a little bit too

01:04:23.920 about,

01:04:24.900 okay,

01:04:25.200 so we talked about

01:04:25.940 the curriculum of development

01:04:27.200 and you use basically

01:04:28.480 the equivalent

01:04:29.340 of incremental

01:04:31.080 behavioral exposure

01:04:32.240 is that

01:04:32.760 you're setting people

01:04:34.000 in a non-threatening

01:04:37.260 initial,

01:04:38.200 highly structured situation

01:04:39.580 and then you

01:04:40.840 remove a constraint

01:04:42.780 at a time,

01:04:43.540 essentially,

01:04:44.040 as people scaffold up

01:04:45.240 their ability to play.

01:04:46.780 How does the parkour,

01:04:48.020 we should define parkour

01:04:49.100 for everybody

01:04:49.640 because not everybody

01:04:50.300 listening will know.

01:04:51.540 And why don't you

01:04:52.360 introduce that into it

01:04:53.460 because that's also

01:04:54.360 the person against

01:04:55.280 the world

01:04:55.820 instead of the person

01:04:56.840 competing against

01:04:57.700 another person.

01:04:58.800 Yeah,

01:04:59.160 this is the perfect bridge.

01:05:00.800 So I found parkour

01:05:02.240 when I was 23 years old

01:05:04.400 and I'd been doing gymnastics

01:05:05.700 for some period of time

01:05:06.840 before that

01:05:07.480 and it's very interesting

01:05:09.440 because I remember

01:05:10.860 really clearly,

01:05:12.600 I was very influenced

01:05:14.080 by the Lord of the Rings

01:05:14.900 and I remember

01:05:16.140 really clearly

01:05:16.800 as a young,

01:05:17.920 like 12 years old

01:05:18.820 realizing that like

01:05:19.580 there were no dragons

01:05:20.860 to go out and slay physically.

01:05:23.140 And so when I saw

01:05:24.160 David Bell,

01:05:24.820 the founder of parkour,

01:05:25.540 jumping between buildings,

01:05:26.520 I had this really deep sense

01:05:27.740 that like

01:05:28.080 you can do something heroic

01:05:30.100 in life

01:05:30.840 but the challenge

01:05:31.780 isn't necessarily

01:05:32.660 a dragon out there,

01:05:34.620 it's the fears

01:05:35.460 that are inside you

01:05:36.160 that would prevent you

01:05:36.940 from being able

01:05:37.420 to do what you're

01:05:38.660 going to do.

01:05:39.600 And so I started

01:05:40.540 practicing parkour

01:05:41.360 and it completely,

01:05:42.280 I fell in love with it

01:05:43.220 and it had this

01:05:43.820 transformative effect on me.

01:05:45.640 And so over the years

01:05:46.340 I've been like,

01:05:46.940 what is happening

01:05:47.560 with parkour?

01:05:48.100 What is going on?

01:05:49.200 Sorry,

01:05:49.600 just to define parkour

01:05:50.640 for a moment,

01:05:51.520 parkour is a discipline

01:05:53.860 of learning

01:05:54.940 to overcome obstacles

01:05:55.900 that came out of France

01:05:56.940 in the early,

01:05:57.740 or the late 90s.

01:05:59.560 And so it's associated

01:06:01.120 with jumping between buildings

01:06:02.420 but it doesn't have

01:06:03.160 to be buildings, right?

01:06:04.340 It's just finding obstacles

01:06:06.260 in the environment,

01:06:06.900 running, jumping,

01:06:07.640 climbing,

01:06:08.440 moving on a forest

01:06:09.240 to try to surpass

01:06:10.220 and overcome that obstacle.

01:06:11.920 I can think of it

01:06:12.440 as just playing

01:06:12.880 with obstacles.

01:06:13.720 And I think fundamentally

01:06:14.660 what it is

01:06:15.160 is actually just

01:06:15.720 exploratory locomotor play.

01:06:17.540 You've talked about

01:06:18.420 the example of,

01:06:20.300 again,

01:06:20.680 the rat model, right?

01:06:22.200 If you drop a rat

01:06:23.020 into a new environment,

01:06:25.460 it will first freeze

01:06:26.400 and then it will explore

01:06:27.380 the environment

01:06:27.940 but then it will actually

01:06:29.360 play with the way

01:06:30.380 in which it moves

01:06:31.040 for its environment.

01:06:31.920 It will add,

01:06:33.140 you know,

01:06:33.960 variation to how it moves.

01:06:36.020 And by doing so,

01:06:36.840 it's actually mapping

01:06:37.700 all the potential pathways

01:06:39.020 in that environment

01:06:39.680 and increasing

01:06:40.440 its behavioral flexibility.

01:06:41.480 The affordances

01:06:42.180 and the obstacles,

01:06:43.260 you bet.

01:06:43.960 Exactly.

01:06:44.620 So that's precisely

01:06:45.520 what we're doing

01:06:46.220 with parkour.

01:06:47.240 And I think it's so interesting

01:06:48.180 because we're literally

01:06:49.280 mapping meaning

01:06:50.040 into the world.

01:06:51.040 What you develop

01:06:51.620 when you start

01:06:52.220 doing parkour

01:06:52.940 is something called

01:06:53.680 parkour vision.

01:06:54.920 So you've been walking

01:06:55.740 through the world

01:06:56.320 for years

01:06:57.360 and you see a wall

01:06:59.080 and a wall just means

01:07:00.060 a place you can't go in,

01:07:01.980 right?

01:07:02.520 But now all of a sudden

01:07:03.300 a wall means

01:07:04.000 a place that you can run up

01:07:05.580 or a wall means

01:07:06.740 a thing that you can

01:07:07.620 flip off of

01:07:08.640 or do any number

01:07:10.420 of different techniques.

01:07:11.640 So that wall

01:07:12.460 is now much richer

01:07:13.700 for you.

01:07:14.160 It literally is a source

01:07:15.360 of reward

01:07:16.520 to see a wall

01:07:17.760 because the relationship

01:07:19.360 between the walls

01:07:20.020 actually code movement

01:07:21.120 that you can use.

01:07:23.340 Right, right.

01:07:24.320 And so that's

01:07:25.460 how it maps meaning

01:07:26.540 into the world.

01:07:27.060 And then there's

01:07:28.300 this sense that

01:07:29.140 you're acting out

01:07:31.000 the heroic archetype

01:07:31.960 every time that you go out

01:07:33.120 to do parkour, right?

01:07:34.720 It is embodying

01:07:35.820 that metamyth

01:07:36.420 because you'll be walking

01:07:38.940 and you'll see

01:07:39.760 a jump that calls to you.

01:07:42.120 And that jump 0.95

01:07:43.020 is some,

01:07:44.020 it's undifferentiated.

01:07:45.140 You don't yet know

01:07:46.280 what you can do

01:07:47.620 and it has promise, right?

01:07:48.840 Like if you do it,

01:07:49.460 it's really cool.

01:07:50.160 It's exciting.

01:07:51.300 But if you fail,

01:07:52.440 you might get hurt, right?

01:07:54.060 And especially

01:07:54.460 as you scale up

01:07:55.220 your abilities,

01:07:55.920 like the potential dangers

01:07:57.320 can become very, very high.

01:07:59.120 And so you get to play with

01:08:01.080 and recognize

01:08:01.880 what it's like

01:08:02.820 to experience fear

01:08:04.140 at a really deep level.

01:08:06.000 And then you get to go

01:08:07.080 through the physical process of

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01:09:13.140 Responsible Man,

01:09:14.040 because true strength

01:09:14.940 comes from within.

01:09:16.460 How does my body

01:09:17.700 handle this fear?

01:09:19.100 What do I need

01:09:19.820 to prepare myself?

01:09:21.740 And then how do I

01:09:22.480 make the commitment

01:09:23.420 and make the jump

01:09:24.080 to the other side?

01:09:25.040 Right.

01:09:25.680 Right.

01:09:26.100 Well, it's a great form

01:09:27.140 of play symbolically

01:09:28.380 because, you know,

01:09:29.840 it's, you're going to,

01:09:30.980 the landscape is one

01:09:32.120 of pathways,

01:09:33.360 affordances,

01:09:34.060 and obstacles.

01:09:34.940 That's basically

01:09:35.520 how the world

01:09:36.080 lays itself out for us.

01:09:37.780 And, you know,

01:09:38.640 you can avoid an obstacle.

01:09:40.740 Yep.

01:09:41.360 But the highest art

01:09:43.340 is to transform

01:09:44.200 an obstacle

01:09:44.800 into an affordance, right?

01:09:46.220 This is no longer

01:09:47.180 an obstacle.

01:09:47.820 It's something

01:09:48.220 that I can use

01:09:49.500 in my,

01:09:50.500 to facilitate

01:09:51.120 my pathway forward.

01:09:52.780 No, and that's

01:09:53.700 the highest form of play.

01:09:54.960 I mean, one of the things

01:09:56.360 I've learned quite,

01:09:58.640 with some difficulty,

01:09:59.800 let's say,

01:10:00.160 over the last five years

01:10:01.160 is that the most

01:10:02.600 adversarial obstacles

01:10:05.300 in the form of,

01:10:07.900 let's call them

01:10:08.700 pathologically narcissistic 1.00

01:10:10.460 and destructive journalists, 0.99

01:10:12.600 are actually afford

01:10:13.900 the most serious play

01:10:15.500 because the,

01:10:17.160 the more intense

01:10:18.560 the attack,

01:10:20.440 the more potential

01:10:21.800 there is in

01:10:22.980 making your ability

01:10:24.460 to contend with it manifest.

01:10:26.520 Yeah.

01:10:26.680 And that's a very strange

01:10:27.740 thing to learn,

01:10:28.660 but it's,

01:10:29.500 you know,

01:10:29.760 and it's,

01:10:30.120 it's not a game

01:10:30.960 without high stakes,

01:10:32.380 but, man,

01:10:34.000 it's something to think about

01:10:35.160 is that the highest

01:10:36.260 art of mastery,

01:10:37.820 the highest form of mastery

01:10:38.880 is to turn the worst

01:10:39.960 obstacle into the most

01:10:41.540 remarkable affordance.

01:10:43.360 Absolutely.

01:10:44.240 There's something,

01:10:44.820 there's something deep

01:10:45.640 about that,

01:10:46.260 you know,

01:10:46.540 that you may know this,

01:10:48.320 you probably do,

01:10:49.020 that we calibrate

01:10:50.320 a lot of fine actions

01:10:51.900 with opponent processing,

01:10:53.280 and almost all

01:10:54.580 of our fine actions

01:10:55.600 are the consequence

01:10:57.080 of two systems

01:10:58.180 in opposition

01:10:58.940 modulating each other.

01:11:00.880 So if you want to move

01:11:01.540 your hand really smoothly,

01:11:02.620 you can do it like this,

01:11:03.920 but it's still kind of jerky

01:11:05.500 if you analyze it

01:11:06.400 at the micro level,

01:11:07.280 but if you do this,

01:11:08.880 you can move your hand

01:11:09.800 with incredible precision,

01:11:11.440 and that's an opponent process,

01:11:13.220 and a tremendous number

01:11:15.200 of the physiological processes

01:11:16.780 that we undertake

01:11:17.640 are opponent processes,

01:11:19.020 and, you know,

01:11:20.920 you have that

01:11:21.520 opponent process dynamic

01:11:22.900 within a marriage,

01:11:23.840 and you have it

01:11:24.480 within a debate,

01:11:26.300 you have it within play,

01:11:27.820 it seems to be

01:11:28.880 a universal principle,

01:11:30.100 the principle of properly

01:11:31.100 balanced opponent processing,

01:11:32.500 and you could think

01:11:33.860 about that at the highest level

01:11:35.200 is the most fundamental

01:11:37.040 obstacle might be

01:11:39.000 the adversary that affords

01:11:40.900 the most serious play.

01:11:42.760 That's a, well,

01:11:43.820 that's a revolutionary way

01:11:45.620 to conceptualize the world.

01:11:46.900 Yeah, that's a,

01:11:48.520 I love that.

01:11:49.420 I want the most,

01:11:50.380 the most challenging adversary

01:11:53.800 that you can handle

01:11:54.700 that affords you

01:11:55.460 the capacity to play,

01:11:57.360 that I think is really

01:11:58.900 at the center

01:11:59.460 of what provides that,

01:12:01.080 you know,

01:12:01.500 I love the term allostasis, right?

01:12:03.320 So we think that we're

01:12:04.360 in homeostasis,

01:12:05.820 but we're actually

01:12:06.440 in a continual process

01:12:07.720 of development,

01:12:08.760 and that continual process

01:12:09.680 of development

01:12:10.220 is always between these

01:12:12.560 paired reciprocal

01:12:14.240 opponent processing systems, right?

01:12:16.520 So the parasympathetic nervous

01:12:18.120 and the sympathetic nervous system.

01:12:19.960 So as I was preparing

01:12:21.500 for this discussion,

01:12:22.400 I was listening to

01:12:23.120 your last discussion

01:12:23.940 with John Brevakey

01:12:24.860 and talking to him

01:12:26.540 a little bit,

01:12:27.080 and I was thinking about

01:12:29.100 how those connections

01:12:32.400 that I talked about,

01:12:33.200 the fundamental connections

01:12:34.100 that a practice has to offer,

01:12:35.980 it has to integrate

01:12:36.820 the self better, right?

01:12:38.600 It has to integrate

01:12:39.420 the self with the physical world better.

01:12:41.180 It has to integrate

01:12:41.880 the self with the things

01:12:43.280 we can manipulate better,

01:12:44.740 and with other social beings better,

01:12:48.080 and then with this concept

01:12:49.480 of the transcendent.

01:12:50.860 All of those are also

01:12:51.620 opponent processing.

01:12:52.160 That's a full logos integration.

01:12:53.920 Okay, so why are they

01:12:55.380 all opponent processing?

01:12:57.240 Because you can split the self, right?

01:13:01.780 You're a unity,

01:13:02.800 but you're also a multiplicity.

01:13:04.620 And when you can look at yourself,

01:13:05.720 and you've talked about this,

01:13:06.520 if you want to think deeply

01:13:07.780 about something,

01:13:08.420 you have to argue with yourself.

01:13:10.080 You have to create

01:13:11.200 two different dialogues

01:13:12.280 in your head.

01:13:13.220 So there's this fundamentally

01:13:14.060 dialogical process,

01:13:15.560 and you can embody that

01:13:17.200 by just creating tension

01:13:18.220 in your body

01:13:18.780 between different systems

01:13:19.820 and feeling how,

01:13:21.880 you know,

01:13:22.400 these two things,

01:13:24.040 now I'm playing that

01:13:26.040 and how I can grow with it.

01:13:28.200 And then you can think about,

01:13:29.700 can my mind control my body better?

01:13:32.040 Or can my body support

01:13:33.240 my mind better, right?

01:13:35.160 And all those things

01:13:36.060 can be in dynamic composition.

01:13:38.020 And obviously,

01:13:38.460 once we get to parkour,

01:13:40.140 right,

01:13:40.820 that body environment practice,

01:13:43.020 the environment is the opponent,

01:13:45.540 right?

01:13:45.820 And I'm learning to have

01:13:47.040 greater and greater mastery,

01:13:48.500 greater and greater affordances

01:13:50.120 available to me

01:13:51.200 through that relationship.

01:13:52.880 And then the same thing

01:13:53.640 when I learn to throw

01:13:54.860 and catch

01:13:55.580 and swing objects

01:13:57.000 and then obviously

01:13:57.700 do fine crafting things,

01:13:59.060 which are kind of

01:13:59.620 the developmental derivative

01:14:01.900 of those basic play instincts

01:14:03.760 to play with objects.

01:14:05.580 And then obviously,

01:14:07.240 when I'm engaged

01:14:08.020 in rough and tumble play,

01:14:09.460 it's opponent processing.

01:14:11.060 And so,

01:14:11.720 I think fundamentally,

01:14:13.780 we need an embodied set

01:14:15.080 of physical practices

01:14:16.060 that allow us to

01:14:17.960 attune our relevance realization

01:14:19.980 across these fundamental relationships

01:14:21.640 in order to act out

01:14:23.400 the metameth

01:14:23.960 that you described

01:14:24.660 in Maps of Meaning.

01:14:26.300 Yeah, yeah.

01:14:26.940 Well, that seems right.

01:14:28.900 How do you scaffold

01:14:29.840 parkour for people?

01:14:31.060 We talked a little bit

01:14:31.860 about how you can introduce

01:14:33.100 new kids or adults

01:14:34.960 for that matter

01:14:35.540 who haven't played.

01:14:36.500 Yeah.

01:14:36.740 I really like the curb game.

01:14:38.100 I think that's,

01:14:38.680 I'm going to play that

01:14:39.260 with my grandkids.

01:14:40.160 That's a good idea.

01:14:41.060 That's a good idea.

01:14:41.640 You could do that

01:14:42.260 by having people

01:14:43.220 stand on their tiptoes too.

01:14:44.820 Yep, absolutely.

01:14:45.480 So then the defeat

01:14:46.780 would be that

01:14:47.380 you put your feet

01:14:48.080 on the ground.

01:14:49.040 Yeah, and that would be

01:14:49.980 a good way of putting

01:14:50.740 a larger person

01:14:51.580 off balance as well.

01:14:52.940 You can fight with me,

01:14:54.100 but you have to stay

01:14:54.720 on your tiptoes.

01:14:55.660 Yeah, yeah.

01:14:56.380 So that's really good.

01:14:57.700 So, but how do you,

01:14:59.020 because I haven't done

01:15:00.160 anything like parkour,

01:15:01.400 you know,

01:15:01.860 and so I'm kind of wondering

01:15:02.940 how would you,

01:15:04.160 how would you introduce someone

01:15:05.580 or how would someone

01:15:06.480 introduce themselves

01:15:07.380 to that realm?

01:15:08.220 Yeah.

01:15:08.640 Well, if you think about

01:15:09.360 as exploratory locomotor play,

01:15:10.880 everyone's done parkour,

01:15:12.220 right?

01:15:12.960 You've, you've gone

01:15:14.100 to an environment

01:15:14.800 and been like,

01:15:15.360 how do I get from here to there?

01:15:17.360 That's, that's the fundamental thing,

01:15:18.720 right?

01:15:18.860 Is just go out and do it.

01:15:20.140 So you can just,

01:15:21.000 you could,

01:15:21.560 there was a group in the UK,

01:15:23.720 the parkour dance company

01:15:24.740 that did some really beautiful things

01:15:26.000 on training parkour

01:15:27.460 for adults

01:15:28.120 in their 70s and 80s,

01:15:29.620 right?

01:15:29.980 And they had them

01:15:30.880 like walking through a park,

01:15:32.720 sitting down on a bench,

01:15:33.920 spinning around

01:15:34.680 and standing up

01:15:35.480 on the other side

01:15:35.960 of the bench.

01:15:36.900 And then they could lay down

01:15:37.800 on their stomach

01:15:38.320 and spin around

01:15:39.120 to the other side.

01:15:40.040 Then they could vary.

01:15:40.760 Maybe they feel comfortable

01:15:41.720 spinning to the right

01:15:42.700 and less comfortable

01:15:43.500 spinning to the left.

01:15:44.400 And then they can just

01:15:44.920 get competent at both,

01:15:46.520 right?

01:15:46.660 Just getting up and down

01:15:47.760 off of a chair,

01:15:48.760 you could have thousands

01:15:50.220 of variations

01:15:50.800 that you can explore.

01:15:51.720 Getting up and down

01:15:52.340 off of the ground.

01:15:53.620 All of those things,

01:15:55.020 we can expand

01:15:55.860 our affordances

01:15:56.440 and children

01:15:58.520 will inherently do this.

01:16:00.080 I saw a documentary

01:16:01.040 with Jack White

01:16:02.180 when he was travelling

01:16:03.320 through Canada

01:16:04.080 and Jack,

01:16:05.360 he sets up his stage

01:16:07.300 in a very interesting way.

01:16:08.700 So first of all,

01:16:09.300 he plays this really old

01:16:10.440 beat-up guitar.

01:16:11.700 Yeah.

01:16:12.000 And it's just,

01:16:12.500 he's had it forever

01:16:13.260 and it's just done,

01:16:14.640 you know?

01:16:15.000 And it never stays in tune.

01:16:16.940 So while he's playing

01:16:18.060 on stage,

01:16:18.640 he has to tune his guitar

01:16:19.640 non-stop.

01:16:20.780 And then he plays

01:16:21.720 a bunch of different instruments,

01:16:23.080 you know,

01:16:23.560 laid out on the stage,

01:16:24.620 but he puts them in places

01:16:26.020 that are awkward

01:16:26.880 to get to.

01:16:28.320 So that he has to stay

01:16:29.580 on the edge 1.00

01:16:30.160 to play the damn instruments. 1.00

01:16:31.660 And, you know, 1.00

01:16:32.080 partly what he's doing

01:16:33.060 in his live performance

01:16:34.140 is he's,

01:16:36.120 what would you call it,

01:16:38.160 modelling that ability

01:16:39.660 to stay on the playful edge.

01:16:41.540 And the way he does that

01:16:42.580 is by setting up

01:16:43.520 artificial obstacles

01:16:45.220 in his environment

01:16:46.360 and then having to

01:16:47.300 creatively transform them

01:16:48.520 into affordances

01:16:49.260 on the fly.

01:16:50.860 And so that's really,

01:16:52.520 well, he's very wise

01:16:53.400 and Jack White's

01:16:54.400 a particularly

01:16:54.800 interesting musician

01:16:55.900 because, you know,

01:16:56.960 he's got that real

01:16:57.680 heavy metal edge,

01:16:59.020 kind of Led Zeppelin-esque

01:17:00.220 heaviness to him.

01:17:01.560 Yeah.

01:17:01.860 But Jack is an extremely,

01:17:04.080 his lyrics are extremely

01:17:05.100 optimistic and positive

01:17:06.360 and he's extremely playful.

01:17:07.840 And so he's a master

01:17:09.020 of that transformation

01:17:10.140 of the obstacle

01:17:11.000 into the affordance.

01:17:12.640 It's a,

01:17:13.320 it's,

01:17:14.120 he's basically doing

01:17:15.340 parkour.

01:17:16.520 He's creating

01:17:16.900 a locomotive challenge.

01:17:18.180 Yeah.

01:17:18.760 Yeah.

01:17:19.080 To be able to access

01:17:19.960 his instrument

01:17:20.600 so that he can get

01:17:21.780 a deeper experience

01:17:22.920 of play

01:17:23.480 and share that

01:17:24.100 with his audience.

01:17:25.640 That's a,

01:17:25.880 Right, right.

01:17:26.640 So one of the things

01:17:27.460 you recommend is like

01:17:28.420 even if I wanted

01:17:29.160 to get up out of my chair,

01:17:30.360 I could use my left foot

01:17:31.640 instead of my right foot,

01:17:32.820 right?

01:17:33.080 Yep.

01:17:33.140 Just vary that

01:17:34.080 so that,

01:17:35.000 yeah, I see.

01:17:35.800 That's very interesting.

01:17:37.000 You could spin

01:17:37.860 on your way up.

01:17:39.940 Yeah.

01:17:40.600 Right.

01:17:41.420 What are the relationships?

01:17:42.480 So, you know,

01:17:42.980 just like contralateral

01:17:44.060 versus ipsilateral.

01:17:45.040 So I'm going to

01:17:45.740 put my left foot

01:17:46.840 on the ground

01:17:47.120 on my right hand

01:17:47.760 and then I can switch

01:17:48.580 to the other side.

01:17:49.320 Then I can lean

01:17:50.320 everything on one side,

01:17:51.860 right?

01:17:52.060 I can do a spin

01:17:52.760 as I stand up.

01:17:54.740 There's so many

01:17:55.500 little fine-tuned variations

01:17:56.660 that we can find

01:17:57.400 once we take on

01:17:58.440 this exploratory ethic

01:17:59.800 in relationship

01:18:00.720 to our movement.

01:18:02.000 And as we do that,

01:18:03.140 we're going to be

01:18:03.980 refining and making

01:18:04.860 more sophisticated

01:18:05.620 the body.

01:18:07.420 And I believe

01:18:08.040 when we put that

01:18:09.180 in dynamic relationship

01:18:11.540 to these other

01:18:12.100 sets of practices,

01:18:13.320 we get to extract

01:18:14.640 those insights out

01:18:15.760 and create a more

01:18:16.840 coherent,

01:18:18.340 complete approach

01:18:19.140 to character development.

01:18:21.180 Right, right.

01:18:21.860 Well, we can think

01:18:22.660 about that two ways.

01:18:23.900 You know,

01:18:24.120 one way is that

01:18:25.020 you're mapping

01:18:26.520 a broader set

01:18:27.640 of possibilities

01:18:28.620 onto any given object.

01:18:31.180 Exactly.

01:18:31.740 Objects aren't objects.

01:18:32.840 They're affordances

01:18:33.520 and obstacles.

01:18:34.240 They're not objects.

01:18:35.420 And so you're expanding

01:18:36.760 your map

01:18:37.480 of the possibility

01:18:38.460 of the world

01:18:39.300 in your relationship

01:18:40.220 to it.

01:18:40.920 And so that is an expansion

01:18:41.980 of the meanings

01:18:42.660 of the world.

01:18:43.480 But the other thing

01:18:44.220 you're doing too,

01:18:45.020 you know,

01:18:45.220 we can imagine

01:18:45.800 if I concentrated

01:18:47.360 for a month

01:18:48.180 on doing things

01:18:49.420 left-sided

01:18:50.260 instead of right-sided,

01:18:51.780 I'm going to

01:18:53.180 instantiate

01:18:54.240 a series

01:18:55.000 of neurophysiological

01:18:56.060 changes, right?

01:18:57.240 So I'm going to start

01:18:58.260 building new motor maps

01:18:59.580 and that'll be

01:19:00.880 a form of neural growth

01:19:02.000 and neural regeneration.

01:19:03.360 I'm going to redress

01:19:04.600 the imbalance

01:19:05.280 between the two sides

01:19:06.320 of my body.

01:19:07.240 But it's also the case

01:19:08.560 that, you know,

01:19:09.920 those physiological

01:19:10.720 transformations cascade

01:19:12.640 all the way down

01:19:13.480 to the cellular level.

01:19:14.720 And if you put

01:19:15.700 new stresses

01:19:16.360 on yourself,

01:19:17.180 especially voluntarily,

01:19:18.900 you turn new genes

01:19:20.260 on to code

01:19:21.280 for new proteins.

01:19:22.580 And so not only

01:19:23.540 do you remap

01:19:24.740 the meanings

01:19:25.340 of the external world,

01:19:26.560 but you also

01:19:27.360 literally open up

01:19:29.560 new physiological

01:19:30.520 possibilities

01:19:31.400 from the cellular

01:19:32.300 level upward

01:19:33.120 at all the levels

01:19:34.380 of your organization,

01:19:35.780 you know,

01:19:35.960 your internal

01:19:36.440 physiological organization

01:19:37.720 and release new elements

01:19:39.320 of your character.

01:19:40.320 So it's partly

01:19:41.100 an expansion of the map,

01:19:42.520 but it's also

01:19:43.380 an expansion

01:19:44.120 of psychophysiological

01:19:46.080 capability

01:19:46.940 all the way down

01:19:47.980 to the cell.

01:19:48.940 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:19:50.040 Absolutely.

01:19:50.740 So we map

01:19:53.540 the meaning

01:19:53.900 into the world

01:19:54.560 and the meaning

01:19:55.040 that's available

01:19:55.540 to us in the world

01:19:56.180 is always contingent

01:19:57.320 on the action capabilities

01:19:58.420 within the self.

01:19:59.880 But what was so beautiful

01:20:02.020 about the way

01:20:02.600 that you just said

01:20:03.040 that it made me think

01:20:03.720 so much of like

01:20:04.420 the Jungian concept

01:20:05.420 of the self,

01:20:05.940 which again,

01:20:06.560 you introduced me to,

01:20:07.920 but right,

01:20:08.560 the self is that

01:20:09.480 highest potential,

01:20:11.400 that second self

01:20:12.180 that's laid out

01:20:12.880 over time.

01:20:13.920 And so what you're

01:20:14.920 pointing out

01:20:15.680 is that when we engage

01:20:17.460 with these physical practices,

01:20:18.920 we are actually

01:20:20.460 in some sense

01:20:21.940 being able to bring

01:20:22.840 into the body

01:20:23.700 a more complete

01:20:24.660 representation

01:20:25.220 of that self.

01:20:27.220 Yeah, you bet.

01:20:28.100 Well, you can think about,

01:20:29.100 you imagine that

01:20:29.760 coded into the DNA,

01:20:32.220 the DNA

01:20:34.340 is a repository

01:20:36.080 of potential,

01:20:37.900 but the potential

01:20:38.760 won't make itself manifest

01:20:40.140 without the requisite demand,

01:20:42.060 right?

01:20:42.300 It has to be,

01:20:43.160 the stress has to call

01:20:44.580 the potential into being.

01:20:46.280 And so that play,

01:20:48.800 you know,

01:20:49.020 maybe it's left-sided play,

01:20:50.460 it's going to produce

01:20:51.420 a new form of stress,

01:20:52.380 that's a new kind of demand,

01:20:53.760 and that's going to unlock

01:20:55.420 new potential.

01:20:56.400 And part of that self,

01:20:57.960 you know,

01:20:58.220 Jung likened that self

01:20:59.640 to the oak tree

01:21:01.060 that's implicit

01:21:01.860 in the acorn.

01:21:03.080 Yes.

01:21:03.500 And so it's a potential

01:21:04.960 that could expand itself

01:21:06.460 out into space

01:21:07.240 in a variety

01:21:07.700 of different ways,

01:21:08.600 but that,

01:21:10.340 that there are many

01:21:12.360 potential trees

01:21:13.560 inside a particular acorn.

01:21:15.380 You could think

01:21:15.800 about it that way.

01:21:17.060 The oak is going

01:21:18.360 to develop differently

01:21:19.220 depending on the soil

01:21:20.140 that it's placed in,

01:21:21.000 but that's the case

01:21:22.640 for all of us

01:21:23.260 at any moment,

01:21:24.100 is there are still

01:21:24.760 many potential selves

01:21:26.160 that are locked

01:21:27.680 into the,

01:21:28.420 into the potential

01:21:29.980 of the DNA coding

01:21:31.060 and that can be

01:21:32.700 enticed outward

01:21:33.840 with the appropriate

01:21:34.860 voluntary stress.

01:21:36.180 The other thing

01:21:36.900 that's interesting

01:21:37.520 about that too

01:21:38.220 is you imagine

01:21:38.720 that not only

01:21:39.500 are you calling on

01:21:40.940 as of yet

01:21:42.100 unrevealed

01:21:43.180 physiological potential

01:21:44.860 right down

01:21:45.940 to the cellular level,

01:21:46.940 but you're also

01:21:48.340 practicing

01:21:48.980 the physiological

01:21:50.140 instantiation

01:21:51.200 of a particular spirit.

01:21:53.360 Yes.

01:21:53.500 And the spirit

01:21:54.080 would be that

01:21:54.900 of voluntary challenge.

01:21:57.500 Right?

01:21:57.860 So all the practices

01:21:59.280 you're described of,

01:22:00.980 you're describing

01:22:01.620 are undertaken

01:22:02.660 in the spirit

01:22:03.940 of voluntary challenge.

01:22:05.840 Yes.

01:22:06.140 And so while you're

01:22:06.840 becoming better

01:22:07.740 at each skill,

01:22:08.820 you're also becoming

01:22:09.940 better at manifesting

01:22:11.100 the spirit

01:22:11.640 of voluntary challenge.

01:22:13.400 Absolutely.

01:22:14.100 And that's like

01:22:14.600 a meta spirit,

01:22:15.540 right?

01:22:15.840 And there's no reason

01:22:16.740 to assume

01:22:17.220 that that isn't encoded

01:22:18.520 in genetic potential

01:22:21.080 as well.

01:22:21.760 And so that idea

01:22:22.620 of communing

01:22:23.280 with the heroic ancestor,

01:22:25.260 you know,

01:22:25.580 if that's part

01:22:26.700 and parcel

01:22:27.080 of the process

01:22:27.840 of ancestral communication,

01:22:29.640 ancestral worship,

01:22:30.540 let's say,

01:22:31.260 if that expands

01:22:31.980 out to something like,

01:22:33.980 well,

01:22:34.440 it expands out

01:22:35.300 in the Jewish writings

01:22:36.960 into like apprehension

01:22:38.300 of God himself,

01:22:39.840 it's the realization

01:22:41.860 of that implicit potential,

01:22:44.320 it's the practice

01:22:45.860 of the realization

01:22:46.720 of that implicit potential

01:22:48.080 that actually constitutes

01:22:49.280 the union

01:22:49.920 with that spirit.

01:22:51.720 Yeah,

01:22:52.160 that's beautiful.

01:22:52.760 I was literally

01:22:53.320 just reading,

01:22:53.960 I read through

01:22:55.400 all the beginnings

01:22:57.000 of the chapters

01:22:57.720 of Maps of Meaning

01:22:58.560 yesterday.

01:23:00.280 And the chapter

01:23:01.860 on the hostile brothers,

01:23:04.900 right?

01:23:05.560 In the middle section,

01:23:06.680 you talk about the idea

01:23:07.340 that there's two sort

01:23:08.600 of transpersonal archetypes

01:23:11.140 that we can play out,

01:23:12.280 right,

01:23:12.700 at the individual level.

01:23:14.080 There's the one,

01:23:15.000 there's the spirit

01:23:16.640 that takes on the idea

01:23:18.480 that the world

01:23:19.080 is inherently good

01:23:20.120 and that I can reveal

01:23:21.660 that good

01:23:22.160 through interacting

01:23:22.840 with it.

01:23:23.520 And then there's

01:23:23.980 the spirit

01:23:24.500 that sees

01:23:25.800 the insufficiency

01:23:26.680 of the world

01:23:27.240 and falls in love

01:23:28.240 with its own rationality

01:23:29.360 and that that gives rise

01:23:31.040 to a kind of tyranny.

01:23:32.940 And I was thinking about,

01:23:34.840 you know,

01:23:36.000 I feel like

01:23:36.980 the digital worldview

01:23:40.800 that we're,

01:23:41.780 the mechanistic,

01:23:42.760 digital,

01:23:43.280 Cartesian worldview

01:23:43.980 that is sort of

01:23:46.400 predominant right now,

01:23:48.260 it is much more

01:23:49.760 that second spirit

01:23:51.040 and that in order

01:23:52.200 to step outside of it,

01:23:55.220 in order to reground ourselves,

01:23:57.060 we actually have to

01:23:57.900 physically embody

01:23:58.840 what that is.

01:23:59.900 And that's exactly

01:24:00.620 what these practices do.

01:24:02.100 They take you into

01:24:03.080 acting out

01:24:03.880 that heroic archetype,

01:24:04.940 that exploratory

01:24:05.600 heroic archetype.

01:24:07.060 And as I've built

01:24:08.020 my ideas over the years,

01:24:09.220 what I've seen is that

01:24:10.020 like parkour

01:24:10.780 can be transformative,

01:24:11.980 but it can also

01:24:12.420 fail to transform

01:24:13.380 because it's only one way

01:24:15.320 in which we relate

01:24:16.880 to the fundamental aspects

01:24:17.760 of reality.

01:24:18.860 But when we put it

01:24:19.820 in dialogue

01:24:20.360 with these other aspects

01:24:21.600 of practice,

01:24:22.140 all of a sudden

01:24:22.620 that transformational capacity

01:24:24.340 is increased.

01:24:26.980 So why does it fail

01:24:29.480 and why is it so necessary

01:24:31.240 to put it in context

01:24:32.400 with the other practices?

01:24:33.960 Yeah.

01:24:34.700 Or why can it fail?

01:24:36.080 Yeah.

01:24:39.940 When I started parkour,

01:24:41.920 I felt like

01:24:42.600 it had dramatically

01:24:43.380 transformed me.

01:24:44.260 And everyone around me

01:24:45.560 who's starting parkour

01:24:46.160 at the same time,

01:24:46.680 we all had this,

01:24:47.720 you know, messianic.

01:24:48.940 I mean, part of this

01:24:49.480 is just developmental, right?

01:24:50.540 We're all late adolescence

01:24:52.540 in some sense,

01:24:53.120 early 20s.

01:24:54.100 And there's, you know,

01:24:54.860 you're going to be messianic

01:24:55.780 about whatever collective

01:24:56.700 identity that you take on.

01:24:58.280 But nonetheless,

01:24:59.140 we did have this feeling.

01:25:00.580 And then over time,

01:25:02.320 what I noticed was that

01:25:03.240 people would talk

01:25:04.180 about the changes,

01:25:04.920 but I wouldn't necessarily

01:25:05.700 see the change.

01:25:06.920 Or then other people

01:25:07.720 came into discipline

01:25:08.420 who were hobbyists

01:25:09.120 and they didn't really see

01:25:09.960 the transformative power.

01:25:10.720 So I started asking,

01:25:11.360 how do we get

01:25:11.920 that transformative power?

01:25:13.840 And like the big one

01:25:15.020 that I see all the time

01:25:15.740 is like parkour

01:25:16.900 is predominantly

01:25:17.440 a young male sport.

01:25:18.800 It's like 90% young men 0.99

01:25:19.920 who do it.

01:25:20.860 And a lot of times

01:25:22.040 they are kind of nerdy kids.

01:25:23.900 They didn't have

01:25:24.460 a strong sport background.

01:25:25.800 They're small

01:25:26.400 and, you know,

01:25:27.280 not physically strong

01:25:28.140 when they start.

01:25:28.620 And they come into the sport

01:25:29.500 and they develop

01:25:30.280 these beautiful,

01:25:31.220 incredibly strong

01:25:32.060 physical bodies.

01:25:32.920 They get healthier.

01:25:33.640 They change their diets.

01:25:34.680 Their skin clears up.

01:25:35.780 And all of a sudden,

01:25:36.320 they're literally

01:25:36.760 physically beautiful young men.

01:25:38.560 And they're hyper courageous,

01:25:40.480 right?

01:25:40.680 They can jump between buildings

01:25:41.860 and do multiple flips,

01:25:42.920 but they still

01:25:44.340 can't talk to a girl.

01:25:46.860 Right?

01:25:47.480 Right, right.

01:25:48.100 And it's like,

01:25:48.660 you talk so much

01:25:49.640 about how this

01:25:50.380 has made you courageous,

01:25:51.760 but in this very

01:25:52.740 fundamental thing,

01:25:53.660 you are not expressing

01:25:54.500 that courage.

01:25:55.940 So if we're practicing-

01:25:58.260 Insufficient generalization.

01:25:59.180 Exactly.

01:26:00.580 So we,

01:26:01.640 in any practice,

01:26:03.000 I believe,

01:26:04.080 we need to recognize

01:26:06.440 that the local game

01:26:07.760 is always

01:26:08.960 kind of a distraction

01:26:10.780 from what actually

01:26:11.760 we're trying to accomplish,

01:26:12.760 which is that

01:26:13.320 general adaptation

01:26:14.600 to the metagame.

01:26:15.900 So if we take on

01:26:17.620 parkour as a practice

01:26:18.600 and we think about it

01:26:19.780 as a practice

01:26:20.320 that builds us

01:26:21.980 towards the metagame,

01:26:23.320 then that's automatically

01:26:25.320 going to start,

01:26:25.920 I think,

01:26:26.260 potentiating the transfer.

01:26:27.440 But then we can ask,

01:26:28.900 is there just a better way

01:26:31.260 for me to cultivate

01:26:31.900 courage right now?

01:26:32.720 Maybe I need to go

01:26:33.480 do Toastmasters.

01:26:34.900 Maybe I need to go

01:26:35.860 to a contact improv class.

01:26:37.700 And when you start

01:26:38.560 to kind of schematize

01:26:39.620 that you need connection

01:26:41.100 and attunement

01:26:41.580 across these fundamental

01:26:42.600 connection,

01:26:43.320 these fundamental axes,

01:26:45.560 then you can start

01:26:48.240 to piece together

01:26:48.960 the areas of your character

01:26:50.320 that are most vulnerable.

01:26:50.720 Right, so how did you

01:26:52.000 lay out the axes again?

01:26:53.500 You talked about

01:26:54.320 internal integration.

01:26:55.660 Yes, internal.

01:26:56.360 You talked about integration

01:26:57.140 between people.

01:26:58.580 You talked about integration

01:26:59.960 between the sexes,

01:27:01.200 let's say,

01:27:01.560 and you talked about

01:27:02.220 integration in relationship

01:27:04.220 to the natural world.

01:27:06.340 So those are all

01:27:07.080 different domains of games.

01:27:09.420 Yeah.

01:27:09.680 And you can think

01:27:10.240 of the metagame

01:27:10.940 as emerging out

01:27:11.720 of all those domains, right?

01:27:13.040 You have to be mapped

01:27:13.900 to yourself.

01:27:15.280 You have to be mapped

01:27:16.000 to other people.

01:27:16.720 You have to be mapped

01:27:17.400 to the other sex.

01:27:18.240 You have to be mapped

01:27:19.060 to the world.

01:27:20.280 Yeah.

01:27:20.620 And you can't concentrate

01:27:22.060 on any one of those

01:27:23.140 at the expense of the other

01:27:24.440 without becoming optimally,

01:27:27.060 you're not optimally balanced.

01:27:28.160 Yeah.

01:27:28.580 So the five that I've been using

01:27:31.980 are the relationships

01:27:34.000 internal to the self, right?

01:27:35.460 And those are structural

01:27:36.240 and psychological.

01:27:39.160 The relationship

01:27:40.040 between the self

01:27:41.000 and the physical environment

01:27:41.920 as a set of obstacles

01:27:43.500 and affordances

01:27:43.960 we move through.

01:27:45.060 And then you could

01:27:46.160 nest this within that,

01:27:47.360 but I think it's useful

01:27:48.140 to separate out

01:27:48.760 as human beings

01:27:49.400 the objects

01:27:50.260 that we can manipulate, right?

01:27:52.400 And you see this

01:27:53.620 in play research as well.

01:27:56.080 Play research

01:27:56.680 talks about

01:27:57.440 exploratory locomotor play,

01:27:59.300 object-oriented play,

01:28:00.640 and rough-and-tumble play.

01:28:02.100 So if we take

01:28:03.960 those fundamentals,

01:28:05.800 so you have

01:28:07.400 first the intrinsic,

01:28:08.620 and if you look at

01:28:09.020 like a little baby,

01:28:09.780 how do they start playing?

01:28:10.860 They're like,

01:28:11.300 where's my toe, right?

01:28:12.740 Where are my fingers?

01:28:13.740 How do I move this body?

01:28:14.700 What's rolling?

01:28:15.340 That's like the somatic

01:28:16.140 and structural layer.

01:28:16.940 And then they're able

01:28:18.540 to crawl and cruise

01:28:19.620 and climb,

01:28:20.560 and that's that

01:28:21.200 parkour layer.

01:28:23.300 And then they're able

01:28:24.200 to pick things up

01:28:24.920 and manipulate them,

01:28:25.460 and that happens

01:28:25.820 at the same time,

01:28:26.580 but those are kind of

01:28:27.160 two separate aspects

01:28:28.280 of development.

01:28:29.240 And then they're

01:28:29.920 always interacting

01:28:30.840 with their mother first

01:28:32.420 and their father

01:28:33.000 and their siblings

01:28:34.040 and their rough-and-tumble 0.84

01:28:34.860 play is scaling up.

01:28:36.240 And then all that

01:28:36.920 in some sense

01:28:37.400 is nested in these

01:28:38.500 higher spiritual aspects,

01:28:40.820 which I think

01:28:41.660 are also,

01:28:42.460 you know,

01:28:42.640 you've talked about

01:28:43.220 the development

01:28:43.680 from exploration behavior

01:28:46.140 to play to ritual.

01:28:48.980 So you can see

01:28:49.780 that development there.

01:28:51.140 So those are the five axes.

01:28:52.380 And then within,

01:28:53.120 obviously,

01:28:53.420 the interactive element,

01:28:54.620 we have,

01:28:55.420 you know,

01:28:56.580 sort of like

01:28:57.640 intersexual,

01:29:00.000 like how men

01:29:01.080 learn to deal with men,

01:29:02.400 how women learn

01:29:02.880 to deal with women, 0.94

01:29:03.580 and then you have

01:29:04.420 the intrasexual,

01:29:05.860 and then there's obviously

01:29:06.640 the romantic and sexual

01:29:07.580 aspect of that,

01:29:08.860 which can,

01:29:09.960 which obviously dance 0.95

01:29:11.220 is an extraordinarily

01:29:11.920 important aspect of that

01:29:13.420 as, you know,

01:29:13.860 you've explored.

01:29:14.460 Does that all make sense

01:29:16.220 the way I've laid that out?

01:29:17.660 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:29:18.940 Yeah, well,

01:29:19.360 I like the,

01:29:20.580 I like the idea of the,

01:29:22.780 it's nice to lay out

01:29:23.900 the different landscapes

01:29:24.800 so that people have

01:29:25.780 some sense of the

01:29:26.680 different domains

01:29:27.380 in which mastery

01:29:28.160 could be pursued

01:29:29.560 and accomplished.

01:29:30.400 And it's also useful

01:29:31.380 to point out that

01:29:32.300 you don't want to

01:29:33.960 allow the practice

01:29:35.840 to become an end

01:29:36.740 in itself.

01:29:37.900 Exactly.

01:29:38.200 I mean,

01:29:38.580 the purpose of becoming

01:29:39.720 great at basketball

01:29:40.680 isn't to become

01:29:41.540 great at basketball,

01:29:42.560 it's to become great

01:29:43.340 at being a human being.

01:29:44.800 And that's going to

01:29:45.660 involve a lot of teamwork

01:29:46.880 and a lot of coaching

01:29:47.900 and a lot of mentoring

01:29:48.820 and a lot of fair play

01:29:50.040 and, you know,

01:29:51.660 maybe attention 0.96

01:29:52.300 to the structure

01:29:53.880 of the sport itself,

01:29:55.080 all of that.

01:29:56.220 Exactly.

01:29:57.120 But you don't want

01:29:57.820 to make your discipline

01:29:58.660 a dead end.

01:30:00.420 Precisely.

01:30:00.900 And that idea

01:30:00.980 that it should be generalized

01:30:01.960 is extremely important.

01:30:04.000 Yeah, and so,

01:30:05.780 because that,

01:30:06.560 otherwise you could get

01:30:07.260 locked within your subculture

01:30:08.720 and that's when things

01:30:09.700 get kind of cult-like.

01:30:10.760 Yes, and I've seen

01:30:12.160 this repeatedly.

01:30:13.040 Every practice

01:30:14.240 that I've seen someone say

01:30:15.360 is transformative,

01:30:16.700 I've seen that there's

01:30:17.440 a dark side to it.

01:30:18.520 So in parkour,

01:30:19.260 you can say,

01:30:19.820 I'm going to go do this jump

01:30:20.880 and that's going to make

01:30:22.000 me more courageous

01:30:22.480 because I'm facing down

01:30:23.380 my fear.

01:30:24.420 And it can absolutely do that.

01:30:26.640 But there's also

01:30:27.540 this weird way

01:30:28.240 in which you can become

01:30:29.020 a place in which

01:30:29.780 you can reinforce

01:30:31.020 the image of yourself

01:30:32.100 as courageous

01:30:32.620 as you're failing

01:30:33.600 to act it out

01:30:34.260 everywhere else in your life.

01:30:35.220 It's like,

01:30:35.820 no, I'm too afraid

01:30:36.520 to talk to my parents.

01:30:36.860 Well, that's a video game

01:30:37.760 problem too.

01:30:38.600 Yeah, exactly.

01:30:39.600 Same thing, same thing.

01:30:41.420 Yeah, so then take

01:30:42.200 something like meditation,

01:30:43.260 Vipassana, right?

01:30:44.040 You're learning to

01:30:44.780 calm yourself down,

01:30:45.900 to be focused.

01:30:47.460 But then I've seen people

01:30:48.360 who get trapped

01:30:49.040 inside that state

01:30:50.720 and they can't

01:30:52.180 access it

01:30:52.820 outside of it.

01:30:53.720 They can become

01:30:54.180 even more fragile.

01:30:56.280 Their equanimity

01:30:56.840 can become more fragile

01:30:57.800 through the practice.

01:30:59.800 Mm-hmm.

01:31:00.680 So, but if you take

01:31:02.100 parkour

01:31:02.580 and you take

01:31:03.060 a focus practice,

01:31:04.720 the focus practice

01:31:05.840 helps you actually

01:31:07.300 attune to

01:31:07.980 and get into flow state

01:31:08.940 within the parkour.

01:31:10.080 And the parkour

01:31:10.660 actually creates

01:31:11.380 an arena

01:31:12.200 in which you can test

01:31:13.700 whether your meditative practice

01:31:15.680 is actually having

01:31:16.580 the effect

01:31:17.140 that you're looking for.

01:31:18.520 So by having

01:31:19.300 these opponent

01:31:20.040 processing relationships

01:31:21.240 between all these

01:31:21.980 different practices,

01:31:23.060 that's why I believe

01:31:23.980 that is fundamental

01:31:25.020 to a real cultivation

01:31:26.360 of wisdom.

01:31:27.960 Right, right.

01:31:29.240 So tell me about

01:31:30.620 your enterprise per se.

01:31:33.360 Like if people go

01:31:34.740 onto your website

01:31:35.700 for example,

01:31:36.700 what do they find?

01:31:37.840 What do you offer?

01:31:38.920 And how can people

01:31:39.840 engage in this

01:31:41.620 and duplicate it

01:31:42.800 for themselves

01:31:44.160 in their own lives?

01:31:45.580 Yeah, so we have

01:31:46.700 a website of

01:31:47.140 allmoveplay.com.

01:31:48.080 On there you can find

01:31:48.840 online courses

01:31:49.580 that can get you started.

01:31:51.020 They start with parkour

01:31:52.220 and then add in

01:31:53.220 elements of other things.

01:31:55.480 So we have our

01:31:56.380 online courses.

01:31:56.980 People can check those out.

01:31:57.980 And then we teach retreats.

01:31:59.140 That's really the center

01:31:59.920 of what we do.

01:32:00.740 So we're in the middle

01:32:01.940 of kind of selling

01:32:02.560 this year's retreats.

01:32:03.960 We have some soft spots left

01:32:05.480 so if people see this

01:32:06.240 and want to join us

01:32:07.040 they probably want

01:32:08.220 to get on that first.

01:32:09.580 In the retreats

01:32:10.340 that's where we're able

01:32:11.020 to go deepest

01:32:12.380 into this full experience

01:32:15.320 because we talk about

01:32:16.920 those five fundamental practices

01:32:19.080 that I mentioned.

01:32:20.500 It's four fundamental practices

01:32:21.660 that afford five connections.

01:32:24.040 But then we also go

01:32:26.420 into the mindfulness practices

01:32:27.920 which are kind of

01:32:28.660 a derivative of the somatic

01:32:29.680 and structural layer

01:32:30.700 and then into the

01:32:31.900 nature connection practices

01:32:32.980 learning about the world

01:32:34.140 that we experience

01:32:35.020 and being able to craft

01:32:36.220 and use it

01:32:36.620 which comes out

01:32:37.100 of the second two.

01:32:38.320 And then into the dialogical.

01:32:40.300 So this is something

01:32:40.920 that John Berbecki

01:32:41.680 again our mutual friend

01:32:42.780 has really helped us with

01:32:43.640 is like adding in

01:32:44.740 some of these deep

01:32:45.380 dialogical practices

01:32:46.560 so that we're getting people

01:32:48.680 in conversation

01:32:49.800 and then doing circles

01:32:52.800 and then in storytelling

01:32:54.140 and even in theatrical elements

01:32:55.860 to get all of these things

01:32:57.660 sort of coming together.

01:33:00.080 And there's a ritual aspect

01:33:01.320 to it as well.

01:33:02.820 So we have two five days.

01:33:04.120 So what would people experience?

01:33:05.360 Oh yeah, sorry, go ahead.

01:33:06.500 Obviously you're going to lay that out.

01:33:07.600 Tell me exactly what happens

01:33:08.760 when someone comes to a retreat.

01:33:10.380 Absolutely.

01:33:11.060 So we have two five-day retreats

01:33:12.660 and one eight-day retreat

01:33:13.620 in the summer.

01:33:14.740 And when you come

01:33:15.960 essentially we'll pick everyone up

01:33:18.140 and then as they arrive

01:33:19.600 we will take them

01:33:20.600 through a set of practices

01:33:21.520 that involve both physical aspects

01:33:23.760 and they're very gentle

01:33:24.740 sort of rough and tumble aspects

01:33:26.200 and dialogical aspects

01:33:28.040 so that they can get

01:33:28.940 as much of a sense of attunement

01:33:30.300 to everyone else in the group

01:33:31.180 as possible right away.

01:33:32.880 Then we'll have dinner

01:33:33.920 and we kind of make

01:33:35.420 as much local fresh food

01:33:37.860 as we can to support people

01:33:39.320 because the food element

01:33:40.080 is a huge part actually

01:33:41.160 of how people bond as well.

01:33:43.280 And doing that right

01:33:44.340 is really important.

01:33:45.860 And then we'll have

01:33:46.660 an opening ceremony

01:33:47.680 and that opening ceremony

01:33:49.000 is a way of creating commitment

01:33:50.380 and bond in the group.

01:33:51.720 When a woman experiences 0.93

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01:35:10.180 And of sort of exiting the world

01:35:12.740 that we were in

01:35:13.360 before we entered this.

01:35:14.920 So I actually

01:35:16.740 like used a piece of this.

01:35:18.380 So I had a bunch

01:35:19.460 of really intense

01:35:20.460 stuff going on

01:35:22.080 with business

01:35:22.540 and some political stuff

01:35:23.680 in my community

01:35:24.360 that was taking my attention

01:35:26.460 when I got the news

01:35:27.620 that you and I

01:35:28.060 were going to have

01:35:28.360 a conversation today.

01:35:29.660 And so I was like

01:35:30.780 I need to let go

01:35:31.680 of all of that

01:35:32.400 so that I can be

01:35:33.180 show up best

01:35:34.080 for this conversation

01:35:34.740 with Jordan.

01:35:35.580 So I went down to

01:35:36.860 the

01:35:38.080 there's a

01:35:38.720 there's a cliff

01:35:39.400 with a

01:35:39.980 beautiful pool of water

01:35:41.520 underneath it.

01:35:41.940 It's about 15 minutes

01:35:45.040 from my house walk.

01:35:45.980 So I walked down there

01:35:47.000 and I did a little mantra

01:35:48.240 saying I'm going to

01:35:48.800 let all that go.

01:35:49.420 When I hit the water

01:35:50.000 I'm washing all that away

01:35:51.040 and I'm going to be focused

01:35:51.820 on this one thing

01:35:52.780 that's central for me

01:35:53.740 right now.

01:35:54.840 And so I did a mantra

01:35:56.220 for like five minutes

01:35:57.420 and I did some

01:35:58.060 like Qigong practice 0.99

01:35:59.420 standing on the top

01:36:00.020 of this cliff

01:36:00.400 and then I jumped

01:36:00.920 into the water

01:36:01.400 and I came out

01:36:02.140 and sure enough

01:36:02.860 like I was so much

01:36:04.020 more ready to be focused

01:36:05.080 once I exited the water.

01:36:06.920 So we'll do a similar

01:36:07.720 type of process

01:36:08.440 with someone

01:36:08.920 when they arrive

01:36:09.700 for this retreat.

01:36:10.940 And then over the course

01:36:11.720 the retreat

01:36:12.100 will take them

01:36:12.760 to a bunch

01:36:13.880 of beautiful spaces.

01:36:15.540 So there are spaces

01:36:16.240 where we

01:36:16.800 as I mentioned

01:36:17.700 jump into water

01:36:19.280 from cliffs.

01:36:20.140 There's actually

01:36:20.640 a tunnel through

01:36:21.380 a waterfall

01:36:22.080 that we have access to

01:36:23.960 and can take people through

01:36:25.360 and that's a really

01:36:26.300 intense rebirth experience

01:36:27.900 to actually climb

01:36:28.880 up through this tunnel

01:36:30.840 where water is pouring

01:36:32.220 down on your head

01:36:32.820 is extraordinary.

01:36:34.120 And then there's

01:36:34.760 like driftwood

01:36:35.920 on the beach

01:36:36.400 that we teach parkour in

01:36:37.660 and there's sandy beach

01:36:39.080 that we wrestle

01:36:40.000 and do all the

01:36:41.000 roughhousing practices

01:36:41.800 and we even play

01:36:42.600 some like team sport

01:36:43.500 type games

01:36:44.140 going up this hill

01:36:45.500 of sand

01:36:46.720 and it's very nice

01:36:47.520 because it's safe

01:36:48.100 because of the sand.

01:36:49.380 And then we have

01:36:50.040 these beautiful trees

01:36:50.860 that we move through.

01:36:51.880 You know,

01:36:52.420 human beings

01:36:53.220 are descendants

01:36:55.480 of 60 million years

01:36:56.500 of arboreal evolution

01:36:57.420 so we take people

01:36:58.200 back into moving

01:36:59.100 in the trees.

01:36:59.660 and we take people

01:37:03.720 up to alpine lakes

01:37:04.500 and swim in the alpine lakes.

01:37:05.820 We take people

01:37:06.280 to natural water slides

01:37:07.500 and every day

01:37:08.400 we're sort of weaving together

01:37:09.740 the basic fundamental

01:37:11.540 structural practices

01:37:12.720 with learning how to move

01:37:14.680 effectively through

01:37:15.340 the environment,

01:37:16.740 with learning how to move

01:37:17.880 effectively with other people

01:37:18.880 and with playing games

01:37:19.820 with balls and sticks

01:37:20.620 and ropes.

01:37:21.440 And then we also

01:37:22.340 take them into

01:37:23.000 those mindfulness practices,

01:37:24.540 the dialogical practices

01:37:25.680 and learning like

01:37:27.960 the language of the birds

01:37:29.400 that we experience

01:37:30.060 around us,

01:37:30.640 learning, tracking,

01:37:32.160 learning wild edibles

01:37:33.500 so they're more

01:37:34.420 deeply connecting

01:37:35.240 and mapping out

01:37:35.980 the connection

01:37:36.420 between the human being

01:37:37.360 and the natural world.

01:37:39.020 So I could go on and on.

01:37:40.640 How long have you

01:37:41.160 been doing that?

01:37:42.560 This is the 11th year

01:37:43.800 that we've been offering

01:37:44.480 these retreats.

01:37:45.600 Oh yeah,

01:37:45.880 and so how many people

01:37:46.720 have you offered

01:37:47.900 the retreats to about now?

01:37:49.780 I'm not sure.

01:37:51.220 So the first few years

01:37:52.860 we just did one retreat a year

01:37:54.100 and we take approximately

01:37:54.940 20 students per retreat

01:37:56.480 and in the last few years

01:37:58.060 we've been offering

01:37:58.660 three retreats a year.

01:38:00.440 So maybe 300 people,

01:38:02.840 something like that.

01:38:03.780 Uh-huh.

01:38:04.380 And so what do people report?

01:38:07.760 What's their experience?

01:38:09.380 And do you have any sense

01:38:10.720 of what the longer term

01:38:12.060 impact is in their life?

01:38:14.280 Yeah.

01:38:15.180 I mean,

01:38:15.660 so John said it was the most,

01:38:17.800 I think he said it was

01:38:18.400 the most transformative

01:38:19.020 experience of his life

01:38:19.900 which is extraordinary.

01:38:21.480 Oh yeah.

01:38:22.120 Yeah,

01:38:22.420 that's an extraordinary

01:38:23.280 feather in my cap,

01:38:24.740 right,

01:38:25.080 to hear that from John McGee.

01:38:26.240 That's for sure.

01:38:26.800 Yeah,

01:38:27.020 yeah,

01:38:27.200 definitely,

01:38:28.460 definitely.

01:38:28.960 And so why did he feel that?

01:38:31.400 So,

01:38:32.100 if I can remember correctly,

01:38:33.740 John and I had a whole

01:38:34.480 conversation about this

01:38:35.380 on his channel,

01:38:36.240 but it was

01:38:37.760 the sense of

01:38:40.200 taking on

01:38:41.100 those intense

01:38:42.620 physical practices

01:38:43.480 and feeling like

01:38:44.680 he was kept right

01:38:46.360 at the appropriate edge

01:38:47.640 for him

01:38:48.100 through the whole time

01:38:49.140 and then being able

01:38:50.200 to have a group of people

01:38:51.580 who was cohering

01:38:52.380 and giving him

01:38:53.080 a deep sense

01:38:54.200 of connection

01:38:54.720 at the same time

01:38:55.680 as well as

01:38:56.920 the beauty of the nature

01:38:57.880 in which we experienced.

01:38:58.800 And he,

01:38:59.300 for him,

01:38:59.760 because he and I

01:39:00.500 had been friends

01:39:01.980 for a long time

01:39:03.080 online but not

01:39:04.040 having met in person,

01:39:05.520 it was particularly

01:39:06.200 powerful to have me

01:39:07.300 support him

01:39:08.080 through that process,

01:39:09.520 something he talked

01:39:10.160 a lot about.

01:39:11.380 Yeah,

01:39:11.660 well,

01:39:11.880 and I mean,

01:39:12.200 John,

01:39:12.700 like me,

01:39:13.680 we operate a fair bit

01:39:14.860 in an abstract realm

01:39:15.880 and so doing something

01:39:17.300 that's more physical,

01:39:20.700 more embodied,

01:39:22.180 but also aiming

01:39:23.340 at something profound,

01:39:24.780 you can imagine

01:39:25.280 that that would be

01:39:26.040 a different kind

01:39:27.980 of qualitatively

01:39:28.940 deep experience.

01:39:30.180 Yeah.

01:39:30.820 When you were a kid,

01:39:32.020 you were diagnosed

01:39:32.660 with attention deficit disorder

01:39:34.580 and also with dyslexia.

01:39:37.520 Yeah.

01:39:37.820 What behaviors

01:39:40.780 were you manifesting,

01:39:42.480 do you believe,

01:39:43.300 that brought about

01:39:44.400 the ADHD diagnosis

01:39:46.280 and how did that

01:39:47.460 play out in your life?

01:39:48.720 What were you doing

01:39:49.420 in class

01:39:49.980 that you shouldn't

01:39:50.640 have been doing?

01:39:52.700 Most things,

01:39:53.620 probably.

01:39:54.600 I'll tell you a story.

01:39:55.700 So my son

01:39:56.800 is eight years old

01:39:58.460 and when he was

01:39:59.660 maybe two years old,

01:40:01.100 my mom said,

01:40:02.700 here's not ADHD,

01:40:04.040 right?

01:40:04.180 That's my son.

01:40:05.340 And I said,

01:40:05.880 how do you know already?

01:40:07.260 And she's like,

01:40:07.800 he closes the door

01:40:09.140 every time he leaves a room.

01:40:11.400 Mm-hmm.

01:40:12.280 And I was like,

01:40:13.760 and it's been clear

01:40:14.740 since he was little

01:40:15.340 that he didn't have

01:40:16.020 the same attentional problems

01:40:17.040 that I did.

01:40:18.380 So I,

01:40:18.960 but he resembles me

01:40:20.360 in certain ways

01:40:20.940 because he loves

01:40:21.500 all the kind of

01:40:22.380 athletic stuff.

01:40:23.260 He's very good at parkour,

01:40:24.480 very good at rough,

01:40:26.120 you know,

01:40:26.440 the wrestling

01:40:27.020 and loves sport.

01:40:29.020 And so I was asking

01:40:29.840 my older brother,

01:40:31.060 you know,

01:40:33.560 does Kier remind you

01:40:34.820 of me at the same age?

01:40:35.860 And he said,

01:40:36.320 personality-wise,

01:40:37.600 no.

01:40:38.360 Right?

01:40:38.640 When you were a kid,

01:40:39.780 your mom would take you 0.64

01:40:41.880 to the bank

01:40:42.300 and you'd lay on the ground

01:40:43.340 and just wiggle

01:40:44.060 in the middle of the line

01:40:45.200 with everyone around you.

01:40:46.800 So that was the kind

01:40:47.720 of behavior.

01:40:47.940 Right, right.

01:40:48.520 I was acting out.

01:40:49.700 I was uncontainable physically,

01:40:52.240 right?

01:40:52.620 Like,

01:40:53.060 if you put me in a chair,

01:40:54.120 I would just wiggle out of it,

01:40:55.300 you know,

01:40:55.600 like a car seat.

01:40:58.080 You know,

01:40:58.280 my mom told me

01:40:58.980 that she sewed

01:41:00.440 like a wool suit for me

01:41:01.880 when I was little.

01:41:02.780 And she was like,

01:41:03.380 okay,

01:41:03.600 just don't get it muddy.

01:41:05.020 And I walked right out

01:41:05.900 and like sat down

01:41:06.680 in a mud puddle.

01:41:07.300 I was climbing trees

01:41:09.940 and getting in fights

01:41:11.100 and everything

01:41:11.760 when I was little.

01:41:14.040 And I really struggled

01:41:15.460 with just the demand

01:41:19.300 to sit still

01:41:20.280 and try to absorb things

01:41:22.280 in school.

01:41:23.260 I remember really clearly

01:41:24.340 in,

01:41:25.380 I think,

01:41:26.500 first grade,

01:41:27.700 we were learning

01:41:28.640 addition and subtraction.

01:41:30.440 And I just read the book

01:41:31.660 until it got to

01:41:32.380 the division

01:41:32.780 and multiplication stuff.

01:41:33.820 And then I just went

01:41:34.480 and told my mom,

01:41:35.160 hey,

01:41:35.260 I can do division

01:41:36.940 and multiplication.

01:41:38.580 And then I went back

01:41:40.320 to school

01:41:40.640 and they made me write

01:41:41.320 three plus four

01:41:42.060 equals seven

01:41:42.700 over and over again.

01:41:44.080 Yeah.

01:41:44.480 I wrote memorization.

01:41:46.020 And I wrote it

01:41:47.500 and then I got frustrated

01:41:48.540 and I'd get more frustrated

01:41:49.500 and then eventually

01:41:50.080 it felt like

01:41:50.620 there was a black wall

01:41:51.600 that would just descend

01:41:52.400 and I couldn't even see

01:41:53.460 the numbers as real anymore.

01:41:55.180 And I just refused.

01:41:57.640 So in third grade,

01:42:00.000 which is a grade

01:42:00.460 that they took me out of,

01:42:02.560 I read a full length novel

01:42:04.220 for the first time.

01:42:05.860 And I also tested

01:42:06.800 as completely illiterate 0.55

01:42:08.000 at the end of the school year.

01:42:10.660 So,

01:42:11.980 you know,

01:42:12.880 very frustrating.

01:42:13.480 So there's a lot of things

01:42:14.680 we don't understand.

01:42:15.940 We don't,

01:42:17.240 our models

01:42:18.080 of childhood temperament

01:42:19.600 are relatively underdeveloped.

01:42:23.160 So I think it was Rothbart

01:42:25.080 who developed

01:42:25.780 the basic classification scene

01:42:28.260 for childhood temperament.

01:42:29.560 There's definitely

01:42:30.020 extroversion

01:42:30.740 and neuroticism

01:42:31.680 and I can't remember

01:42:33.280 what the third category

01:42:34.540 they used was,

01:42:35.560 but it was kind of

01:42:36.180 an intermingling

01:42:36.840 of agreeableness

01:42:38.120 and conscientiousness.

01:42:39.540 Some constraint,

01:42:40.560 I think that's what

01:42:41.240 it was called.

01:42:42.260 And maybe that differentiates

01:42:43.640 out into the big five

01:42:44.720 as adult development

01:42:46.800 takes place.

01:42:47.440 Or maybe we're just

01:42:48.300 not very sophisticated

01:42:49.260 assessing the full

01:42:50.420 five dimensions

01:42:51.220 in childhood.

01:42:52.480 That's more likely

01:42:53.400 the case.

01:42:54.180 But there is this overlay

01:42:55.380 of childhood temperament

01:42:57.180 investigation.

01:42:58.080 Yeah, it was extroversion,

01:42:59.980 neuroticism,

01:43:00.660 and constraint

01:43:01.280 if I remember correctly.

01:43:02.620 And the more,

01:43:03.380 you know,

01:43:04.480 the more behaviorally

01:43:05.800 disinhibited kids

01:43:06.800 who might fall

01:43:07.340 into the ADHD category

01:43:09.420 would be lower

01:43:10.680 in constraint.

01:43:12.060 But I don't,

01:43:13.780 I think we do

01:43:15.460 a very bad job

01:43:16.480 of understanding

01:43:17.120 temperamental contribution

01:43:18.160 to that

01:43:18.780 because my student

01:43:20.160 of mine,

01:43:21.380 Colin DeYoung,

01:43:22.040 and I worked

01:43:22.880 on a two-dimensional

01:43:23.720 personality model

01:43:24.740 which was plasticity

01:43:25.900 and stability.

01:43:27.120 And plastic people

01:43:28.700 who are modifiable,

01:43:31.800 their personalities

01:43:33.280 are quite modifiable,

01:43:34.680 they're extroverted

01:43:35.380 and open.

01:43:36.320 That makes you

01:43:37.000 hyper-exploratory.

01:43:39.000 And so,

01:43:39.960 if you're an active kid,

01:43:41.640 you're going to be

01:43:42.480 extroverted

01:43:43.120 and if you're open

01:43:44.300 then you're interested

01:43:45.020 in all sorts of ideas

01:43:46.020 and possibilities

01:43:46.820 and the addition

01:43:47.940 of those two

01:43:48.440 makes you hyper-exploratory.

01:43:50.220 And then if you're

01:43:51.020 lower in agreeableness

01:43:51.980 and lower in conscientiousness,

01:43:53.840 then there's less

01:43:55.180 constraint on that.

01:43:56.760 And my suspicion

01:43:57.640 is very strong

01:43:59.140 that most of what

01:44:00.000 we diagnose as ADHD

01:44:01.760 is just temperamental variation

01:44:03.460 and that boys

01:44:05.060 in particular

01:44:05.680 who tend to be

01:44:06.360 more active,

01:44:07.540 more assertive also

01:44:08.600 because you see that

01:44:09.440 in adult males

01:44:10.220 in relationship

01:44:11.200 to extroversion,

01:44:13.040 they're not going

01:44:14.260 to be happy,

01:44:16.120 especially if they're

01:44:16.820 also disagreeable

01:44:17.900 with sitting down

01:44:18.880 and being constrained

01:44:19.620 in classrooms.

01:44:20.480 We also know,

01:44:21.400 I did some research

01:44:22.240 at the University of Montreal

01:44:23.340 that showed that

01:44:24.100 agreeable kids

01:44:25.440 got better grades

01:44:26.580 than you would predict

01:44:27.360 from their IQ.

01:44:29.160 And that's really relevant

01:44:30.540 for disagreeable boys

01:44:31.940 because it puts a lot of them

01:44:33.520 on the cusp of failure.

01:44:34.900 So imagine that you're

01:44:35.800 kind of borderline academically

01:44:37.220 but you're disagreeable

01:44:38.900 so you're not very obedient.

01:44:40.820 Then you're a problem kid.

01:44:42.400 You're much more likely

01:44:43.120 to be failed

01:44:43.760 as a consequence of that.

01:44:45.180 Whereas if you're

01:44:45.880 an agreeable kid

01:44:46.720 that's compliant

01:44:47.900 and easy to get along with

01:44:49.080 and then also

01:44:49.640 not very exploratory

01:44:51.060 so it's easy for you

01:44:52.340 to sit still,

01:44:53.380 you're not ever going

01:44:53.940 to cause any trouble

01:44:54.720 in class.

01:44:55.340 You're going to get

01:44:55.680 the benefit of the doubt

01:44:56.600 when the class

01:44:57.400 is oriented to

01:44:58.480 having everyone

01:44:59.540 shut up, 0.95

01:45:00.460 sit down, 1.00

01:45:01.420 remain silent

01:45:02.500 for a long period

01:45:03.320 of time.

01:45:04.060 Yeah, absolutely.

01:45:04.960 Lots of boys

01:45:05.820 in particular,

01:45:06.600 they don't thrive

01:45:07.320 in that environment.

01:45:08.700 We were talking

01:45:09.460 about this a little bit

01:45:10.240 last Saturday

01:45:10.880 and I can confirm

01:45:12.940 for you

01:45:13.420 that that's the description

01:45:15.220 of my personality

01:45:16.000 because I've done

01:45:16.940 your understand me

01:45:18.420 test, right?

01:45:19.880 And so I write

01:45:20.960 99th percentile

01:45:22.340 for openness

01:45:22.820 to experience,

01:45:24.240 99th percentile

01:45:25.100 for assertiveness,

01:45:26.760 third percentile

01:45:28.260 for agreeability,

01:45:30.420 10th percentile

01:45:31.100 for conscientiousness.

01:45:32.540 So there you go.

01:45:34.080 That's what I scored

01:45:35.360 on your chest.

01:45:37.140 Yeah, right.

01:45:38.280 But I think

01:45:38.740 there is something

01:45:39.460 interesting about

01:45:40.720 ADHD symptoms,

01:45:43.920 the inattentiveness

01:45:44.800 as being,

01:45:45.480 and hyperactivity

01:45:46.740 as being related

01:45:47.340 to like a late maturing

01:45:49.180 or a difficulty

01:45:50.680 maturing the frontal cortex

01:45:51.760 and that play

01:45:52.600 is developmental there

01:45:54.700 because I can just

01:45:56.600 look back

01:45:56.920 at my life history

01:45:57.560 and say

01:45:57.920 there's a certain way

01:45:59.840 in which I was

01:46:00.280 very young

01:46:01.020 developmentally

01:46:01.900 fairly late, right?

01:46:04.420 Like some of the

01:46:05.060 social graces

01:46:05.780 didn't come to me

01:46:06.580 really until I was

01:46:07.200 close to 30

01:46:07.820 or even after 30

01:46:09.100 and I had this

01:46:12.260 dramatic experience

01:46:14.120 of taking on

01:46:15.720 parkour

01:46:16.120 and finding

01:46:16.580 that my

01:46:16.880 inattentiveness

01:46:17.820 problems

01:46:18.540 were massively

01:46:20.580 reduced

01:46:21.160 and so it was like

01:46:22.280 when I read

01:46:23.480 that research

01:46:23.980 that showed

01:46:24.340 that if you

01:46:24.920 deny juvenile

01:46:26.560 rats play

01:46:27.200 their prefrontal

01:46:27.820 cortexes

01:46:28.340 don't develop

01:46:28.820 properly

01:46:29.180 and then you

01:46:29.660 can inhibit

01:46:31.640 their behavior.

01:46:31.920 It's a major

01:46:32.140 piece of research.

01:46:33.060 Yeah.

01:46:33.620 And you can

01:46:34.140 inhibit their behavior

01:46:34.900 through amphetamines

01:46:36.120 but they're not

01:46:37.100 actually maturing

01:46:37.760 with the cortex,

01:46:38.480 right?

01:46:38.620 So it was like

01:46:39.200 parkour for me

01:46:40.400 was the medicine

01:46:41.680 that I needed

01:46:42.520 to actually

01:46:44.840 begin to mature.

01:46:46.280 There is evidence

01:46:47.200 for the delayed

01:46:48.180 maturity hypothesis

01:46:49.200 so here's the

01:46:50.020 best evidence.

01:46:51.340 So in any

01:46:53.220 given grade

01:46:54.000 of children

01:46:54.740 there are

01:46:55.800 some children

01:46:56.560 who are about

01:46:57.320 a year older

01:46:58.060 than the youngest

01:46:58.840 children in the

01:46:59.620 class.

01:46:59.940 Yep.

01:47:00.920 So there's a

01:47:01.480 year gap.

01:47:02.500 Yeah.

01:47:02.920 So you know

01:47:03.560 the oldest

01:47:04.220 grade three

01:47:05.160 child could be

01:47:06.080 in grade four

01:47:06.780 and the youngest

01:47:07.420 grade three

01:47:08.060 child could be

01:47:08.720 in grade two.

01:47:09.520 That's my kids.

01:47:10.380 And that's a

01:47:11.000 hell of a gap

01:47:11.700 at that age.

01:47:13.160 Now what you

01:47:13.980 do see is

01:47:14.700 that the rates

01:47:15.480 of behavioral

01:47:17.020 problem are

01:47:18.540 radically elevated

01:47:19.820 in the youngest

01:47:20.680 kids in the

01:47:21.460 class.

01:47:22.600 Okay.

01:47:22.860 So not only

01:47:23.380 do you see

01:47:23.840 that so the

01:47:24.940 youngest kids

01:47:25.480 are much more

01:47:26.020 likely to be

01:47:26.620 diagnosed with

01:47:27.280 ADHD for

01:47:28.300 example but

01:47:29.300 also the

01:47:30.540 youngest kids

01:47:31.180 are also much

01:47:32.040 less likely to

01:47:32.980 be athletically

01:47:34.000 successful.

01:47:35.480 So for example

01:47:36.140 if you look at

01:47:36.700 NHL athletes

01:47:37.780 National Hockey

01:47:38.560 League athletes

01:47:39.300 they're

01:47:40.140 disproportionately

01:47:41.560 older kids

01:47:43.060 in their

01:47:43.480 grade school

01:47:44.200 class.

01:47:45.600 And because

01:47:45.900 a year

01:47:46.400 like when

01:47:47.020 you're eight

01:47:47.480 the difference

01:47:47.960 between a

01:47:48.560 seven-year-old

01:47:49.200 and a nine-year-old

01:47:50.000 can be quite

01:47:50.600 great.

01:47:51.160 Yeah.

01:47:51.600 Like

01:47:51.800 substantially

01:47:53.020 great.

01:47:53.720 And so

01:47:53.980 you know

01:47:54.560 if you're

01:47:55.620 a kid

01:47:56.680 who is

01:47:57.480 a little

01:47:57.740 immature

01:47:58.080 in terms

01:47:58.640 of neurological

01:47:59.180 development

01:47:59.860 and then

01:48:01.000 you're

01:48:02.180 also temperamentally

01:48:04.320 inclined to

01:48:04.920 be exploratory

01:48:05.740 and unconstrained

01:48:06.780 well then

01:48:07.500 you've got a

01:48:07.880 perfect storm

01:48:08.480 there for

01:48:09.000 hypothetically

01:48:09.640 an ADHD

01:48:10.240 diagnosis.

01:48:11.480 But one of

01:48:11.940 the things

01:48:12.220 people should

01:48:12.740 know too

01:48:13.220 this is

01:48:13.580 very very

01:48:14.040 important.

01:48:15.700 So

01:48:15.940 originally

01:48:16.520 the marker

01:48:18.880 for the

01:48:19.600 neurological

01:48:19.960 element of

01:48:21.000 ADHD

01:48:21.500 was that

01:48:23.120 kids who

01:48:23.880 were hyperactive

01:48:24.500 had a

01:48:24.920 paradoxical

01:48:25.780 reaction to

01:48:27.100 amphetamines.

01:48:28.420 So for most

01:48:29.340 people amphetamines

01:48:30.380 hypothetically

01:48:30.980 were stimulating

01:48:31.780 but for

01:48:32.380 ADHD kids

01:48:33.880 it was

01:48:34.180 paradoxical

01:48:34.900 because it

01:48:35.260 calmed them

01:48:35.800 down and

01:48:36.300 that was

01:48:37.040 all not

01:48:37.740 true.

01:48:38.520 None of

01:48:38.780 that's true.

01:48:39.700 It's not

01:48:40.080 true at

01:48:40.540 all.

01:48:41.460 Amphetamines

01:48:41.900 have the

01:48:42.260 same effect

01:48:42.800 on everyone.

01:48:43.900 They

01:48:44.040 increase

01:48:44.740 focused

01:48:45.720 focal

01:48:46.740 narrow

01:48:47.680 attention

01:48:48.180 and that

01:48:48.960 can

01:48:49.360 suppress

01:48:50.360 well

01:48:50.880 Panksep

01:48:51.400 showed it

01:48:51.780 suppresses

01:48:52.340 play.

01:48:53.200 Suppresses

01:48:53.640 that excess

01:48:54.280 of exploratory

01:48:55.160 activity

01:48:55.660 but that

01:48:56.300 is not

01:48:56.800 a paradoxical

01:48:57.780 reaction

01:48:58.320 which is

01:48:59.020 why so

01:48:59.420 many kids

01:49:00.000 in university

01:49:00.700 for example

01:49:01.360 will take

01:49:01.980 Ritalin

01:49:02.680 as a

01:49:03.100 study

01:49:03.460 aid

01:49:03.780 because

01:49:04.240 it does

01:49:04.680 like

01:49:05.280 that

01:49:05.680 increase

01:49:06.180 in

01:49:06.420 dopaminergic

01:49:07.620 activity

01:49:08.500 increases

01:49:09.880 the

01:49:10.280 inhibitory

01:49:11.000 capacity

01:49:11.520 of focal

01:49:12.040 attention

01:49:12.540 but that

01:49:13.460 doesn't

01:49:13.760 mean

01:49:13.940 that it's

01:49:14.340 diagnostic

01:49:14.820 of some

01:49:15.300 underlying

01:49:15.680 disorder.

01:49:16.620 I think

01:49:16.980 that

01:49:17.240 absent

01:49:18.200 fetal

01:49:18.740 alcohol

01:49:19.160 syndrome

01:49:19.580 or

01:49:19.840 clear

01:49:20.200 evidence

01:49:20.620 for

01:49:20.820 neurological

01:49:21.320 abnormality

01:49:22.180 the notion

01:49:23.200 that

01:49:23.540 attention

01:49:24.200 deficit

01:49:24.620 disorder

01:49:25.160 is a

01:49:25.500 neurological

01:49:25.880 syndrome

01:49:26.440 is

01:49:26.820 I think

01:49:27.520 it's

01:49:27.740 preposterous

01:49:28.560 especially

01:49:29.000 given

01:49:29.300 everything

01:49:29.600 we don't

01:49:30.020 know about

01:49:30.440 temperament.

01:49:31.000 Yeah

01:49:31.460 I

01:49:32.520 think

01:49:34.320 there's

01:49:34.700 some

01:49:34.860 association

01:49:35.280 with

01:49:35.520 the

01:49:35.640 EDAR

01:49:36.080 gene

01:49:36.560 and

01:49:37.760 attention

01:49:38.660 deficit

01:49:39.260 disorder

01:49:40.280 and what's

01:49:40.680 interesting

01:49:40.920 is that

01:49:41.200 EDAR

01:49:41.860 is it

01:49:42.820 EDAR

01:49:43.280 DRD4

01:49:45.740 DRD4

01:49:46.360 EDAR

01:49:46.960 is the

01:49:47.320 gene

01:49:47.520 that

01:49:47.720 codes

01:49:48.060 for

01:49:48.400 lots

01:49:48.760 of

01:49:48.880 Asian

01:49:49.100 traits

01:49:49.400 but

01:49:49.880 DRD4

01:49:50.540 my

01:49:51.180 understanding

01:49:51.460 is that

01:49:51.720 DRD4

01:49:52.240 actually

01:49:52.500 appears

01:49:52.800 to be

01:49:52.980 under

01:49:53.120 positive

01:49:53.520 selection

01:49:53.980 in

01:49:54.340 hunter

01:49:54.580 forager

01:49:54.940 cultures

01:49:55.380 and

01:49:56.040 pastoral

01:49:56.420 cultures

01:49:56.840 so there's

01:49:57.480 something

01:49:57.660 about

01:49:57.920 the

01:49:58.060 ability

01:49:58.420 or if

01:49:59.060 you think

01:49:59.240 about

01:49:59.420 John's

01:49:59.900 model

01:50:00.260 of

01:50:00.760 relevance

01:50:01.100 realization

01:50:01.580 we need

01:50:02.600 to be able

01:50:03.000 to

01:50:03.320 we're always

01:50:03.840 having this

01:50:05.080 competing

01:50:05.400 need

01:50:05.860 to focus

01:50:06.500 in

01:50:06.740 and a

01:50:07.000 competing

01:50:07.220 need

01:50:07.540 to

01:50:07.860 externalize

01:50:08.800 the

01:50:08.920 focus

01:50:09.300 so

01:50:10.360 the

01:50:11.880 capacity

01:50:12.460 to

01:50:12.680 actually

01:50:12.980 attune

01:50:13.400 to

01:50:13.600 lots

01:50:13.880 of

01:50:14.020 things

01:50:14.260 outside

01:50:14.660 of

01:50:14.880 what

01:50:15.040 the

01:50:15.180 focal

01:50:15.440 thing

01:50:15.720 is

01:50:15.960 could

01:50:16.340 actually

01:50:16.520 be

01:50:16.680 very

01:50:16.940 adaptive

01:50:17.460 in

01:50:17.680 certain

01:50:17.880 situations

01:50:18.420 when I was

01:50:19.360 a kid

01:50:19.720 my mom

01:50:20.160 called me

01:50:20.680 the boy

01:50:20.960 with big

01:50:21.320 ears

01:50:21.640 because

01:50:22.360 you

01:50:22.680 couldn't

01:50:22.940 say

01:50:23.200 anything

01:50:23.660 anywhere

01:50:24.240 in the

01:50:24.560 house

01:50:24.800 without

01:50:25.020 me

01:50:25.240 picking

01:50:25.500 up

01:50:25.740 what

01:50:26.020 you

01:50:26.100 were

01:50:26.220 saying

01:50:26.480 potentially

01:50:26.980 and

01:50:27.680 I

01:50:27.840 remember

01:50:28.360 really

01:50:28.720 struggling

01:50:29.220 in

01:50:29.480 my

01:50:29.800 teens

01:50:30.400 with

01:50:30.640 this

01:50:31.080 because

01:50:31.340 I

01:50:31.560 couldn't

01:50:31.840 go

01:50:32.020 into

01:50:32.160 a

01:50:32.320 social

01:50:32.560 situation

01:50:33.120 with

01:50:34.520 a lot

01:50:34.800 of

01:50:39.300 I

01:50:39.900 couldn't

01:50:40.160 make

01:50:40.340 the

01:50:40.480 rest

01:50:40.640 of

01:50:40.740 the

01:50:40.800 conversations

01:50:41.240 irrelevant

01:50:41.720 my

01:50:42.400 brain

01:50:42.660 would

01:50:42.840 always

01:50:43.440 be

01:50:43.620 picking

01:50:43.900 up

01:50:44.120 pieces

01:50:44.420 of

01:50:44.600 conversations

01:50:45.140 and

01:50:46.040 so

01:50:46.180 I

01:50:46.440 was

01:50:47.020 constantly

01:50:47.440 sort

01:50:47.740 of

01:50:48.000 getting

01:50:49.160 things

01:50:49.740 that

01:50:49.880 were

01:50:49.980 inappropriate

01:50:50.340 for

01:50:50.680 a

01:50:50.820 kid

01:50:51.100 in

01:50:51.900 some

01:50:52.080 sense

01:50:52.320 from

01:50:52.580 adult

01:50:52.820 conversations

01:50:53.320 because

01:50:53.800 they

01:50:55.400 would

01:50:55.520 think

01:50:55.700 they

01:50:55.920 were

01:50:56.060 safe

01:50:56.340 from

01:50:56.500 my

01:50:56.680 attention

01:50:57.020 in

01:50:57.220 some

01:50:57.380 sense

01:50:57.560 but

01:50:57.680 my

01:50:57.820 attention

01:50:58.040 was

01:50:58.200 always

01:50:58.400 defraying

01:50:58.920 everywhere

01:50:59.300 and

01:50:59.960 it

01:51:00.060 would

01:51:00.180 pick

01:51:00.460 up

01:51:00.740 stuff

01:51:01.120 but

01:51:01.940 if

01:51:02.140 you

01:51:02.200 think

01:51:02.340 about

01:51:02.500 a

01:51:02.600 hunter

01:51:09.300 so

01:51:09.660 even

01:51:09.960 dyslexia

01:51:10.640 seems

01:51:11.520 to

01:51:11.700 also

01:51:11.920 be

01:51:12.240 related

01:51:12.740 to

01:51:13.120 the

01:51:13.320 ability

01:51:13.640 to

01:51:13.920 pick

01:51:14.200 up

01:51:14.340 certain

01:51:14.580 types

01:51:14.840 of

01:51:15.000 patterns

01:51:15.360 in

01:51:15.540 the

01:51:15.660 environment

01:51:16.020 more

01:51:16.260 effectively

01:51:16.640 so

01:51:17.340 you

01:51:17.500 struggle

01:51:17.840 with

01:51:18.120 the

01:51:18.280 patterns

01:51:18.620 of

01:51:19.280 things

01:51:20.460 on

01:51:20.980 paper

01:51:22.160 but

01:51:23.040 something

01:51:23.300 like

01:51:23.520 mushrooms

01:51:24.200 on a

01:51:24.900 forest

01:51:25.160 floor

01:51:25.380 may

01:51:25.580 pop

01:51:25.940 out

01:51:26.080 more

01:51:26.260 clearly

01:51:26.640 to

01:51:26.920 you

01:51:27.140 most

01:51:27.860 kids

01:51:30.020 show

01:51:30.500 signs

01:51:31.660 of

01:51:31.880 dyslexia

01:51:32.580 when

01:51:32.800 they

01:51:32.940 first

01:51:33.200 start

01:51:33.480 to

01:51:33.700 recognize

01:51:34.220 letters

01:51:34.620 because

01:51:34.940 the

01:51:35.160 most

01:51:35.440 common

01:51:36.020 confusion

01:51:37.660 in

01:51:38.000 perception

01:51:38.520 is

01:51:38.820 P's 1.00

01:51:39.360 Q's 0.96

01:51:39.860 B's

01:51:40.280 and

01:51:40.440 D's

01:51:40.880 and

01:51:41.340 all

01:51:41.520 the

01:51:41.700 they

01:51:41.960 only

01:51:42.160 differ

01:51:42.460 by

01:51:42.800 orientation

01:51:43.720 and

01:51:44.620 what

01:51:44.880 happens

01:51:45.300 is

01:51:45.600 that

01:51:45.960 you

01:51:46.780 need

01:51:47.060 massed

01:51:47.840 practice

01:51:48.340 to

01:51:49.040 build

01:51:49.380 the

01:51:49.740 neurological

01:51:50.480 circuitry

01:51:51.240 that allows

01:51:51.740 for the

01:51:52.140 discrimination

01:51:52.640 and my

01:51:53.660 guess

01:51:53.960 is that

01:51:54.380 some

01:51:54.580 people

01:51:54.880 need

01:51:55.140 a lot

01:51:55.460 more

01:51:55.680 massed

01:51:56.100 practice

01:51:56.480 than

01:51:56.720 others

01:51:57.060 like

01:51:57.500 I

01:51:57.680 have

01:51:57.920 the

01:51:58.080 kind

01:51:58.300 of

01:51:58.420 mind

01:51:58.720 ever

01:51:59.300 since

01:51:59.560 I

01:51:59.700 was

01:51:59.840 a

01:51:59.960 kid

01:52:00.100 if

01:52:00.260 I

01:52:00.420 look

01:52:00.600 at

01:52:00.700 a

01:52:00.820 word

01:52:01.020 once

01:52:01.640 I

01:52:02.220 know

01:52:02.400 how

01:52:02.520 to

01:52:02.680 spell

01:52:02.960 it

01:52:03.120 for

01:52:03.280 the

01:52:08.820 friend

01:52:09.160 of

01:52:09.300 mine

01:52:09.520 who

01:52:10.240 is

01:52:10.400 an

01:52:11.080 unbelievable

01:52:11.520 genius

01:52:12.000 was

01:52:12.300 quite

01:52:12.580 dyslexic

01:52:13.200 and

01:52:13.320 he

01:52:13.460 still

01:52:13.680 has

01:52:13.880 some

01:52:14.080 trouble

01:52:14.380 with

01:52:14.860 P's 1.00

01:52:15.180 and

01:52:15.320 Q's 0.96

01:52:15.660 and

01:52:15.800 D's

01:52:16.180 and

01:52:16.340 obviously

01:52:17.120 there's

01:52:17.580 a

01:52:17.720 threshold

01:52:18.120 there

01:52:18.420 for

01:52:18.620 automatization

01:52:19.500 and

01:52:19.880 some

01:52:20.500 people

01:52:20.840 automatize

01:52:21.760 perceptions

01:52:22.380 very

01:52:23.060 very

01:52:23.300 rapidly

01:52:23.760 say

01:52:24.360 semantically

01:52:24.980 and other

01:52:25.380 people

01:52:25.620 need

01:52:25.860 mass

01:52:26.160 practice

01:52:26.680 but

01:52:26.980 and how

01:52:28.800 that's

01:52:29.140 tied in

01:52:29.560 with

01:52:29.700 attention

01:52:30.020 deficit

01:52:30.480 disorder

01:52:30.920 that's

01:52:31.220 a real

01:52:31.400 tough

01:52:31.700 one

01:52:31.940 now

01:52:32.420 you

01:52:32.640 said

01:52:33.020 when

01:52:33.320 we're

01:52:33.500 talking

01:52:33.740 on

01:52:33.960 YouTube

01:52:34.200 you

01:52:34.500 said

01:52:34.800 that

01:52:35.040 when

01:52:35.460 you

01:52:35.560 were

01:52:35.680 very

01:52:36.000 young

01:52:36.340 your

01:52:37.040 father

01:52:37.660 and

01:52:37.860 you

01:52:38.000 interacted

01:52:38.540 a lot

01:52:39.120 and

01:52:39.900 what

01:52:40.060 do

01:52:40.140 you

01:52:40.220 remember

01:52:40.580 about

01:52:40.900 that

01:52:41.340 yeah

01:52:42.480 it's

01:52:42.680 interesting

01:52:42.920 my

01:52:43.140 earliest

01:52:43.720 memory

01:52:44.180 is

01:52:44.880 I think

01:52:45.400 I was

01:52:45.560 about

01:52:45.700 two

01:52:45.920 years

01:52:46.100 old

01:52:46.320 and

01:52:46.460 I

01:52:46.580 was

01:52:46.740 sitting

01:52:47.220 on top

01:52:48.240 of

01:52:48.380 some

01:52:48.560 stairs

01:52:49.160 on our

01:52:49.740 property

01:52:50.040 that

01:52:50.300 allowed

01:52:50.820 us

01:52:50.960 to look

01:52:51.260 up

01:52:51.400 at

01:52:51.500 the

01:52:51.620 sunrise

01:52:52.620 coming

01:52:52.980 up

01:52:53.140 over

01:52:53.280 the

01:52:53.440 hill

01:52:53.620 and

01:52:54.140 we're

01:52:54.280 eating

01:52:54.500 watermelon

01:52:55.180 together

01:52:55.540 and

01:52:55.800 I

01:52:55.860 had

01:52:55.960 a

01:52:56.060 warm

01:52:56.660 sense

01:52:57.780 of

01:52:57.880 my

01:52:58.040 dad

01:52:58.240 at

01:52:58.360 that

01:52:58.520 age

01:52:58.780 and

01:52:59.520 he

01:52:59.840 particularly

01:53:00.380 was

01:53:00.660 really

01:53:00.900 great

01:53:01.160 at

01:53:01.280 doing

01:53:01.460 rough

01:53:01.660 and

01:53:01.760 double

01:53:01.940 play

01:53:02.260 he

01:53:02.460 was

01:53:02.680 my

01:53:03.300 dad

01:53:03.520 was

01:53:03.700 an

01:53:05.280 all

01:53:06.100 state

01:53:06.300 wrestler

01:53:06.740 and

01:53:07.040 collegiate

01:53:07.480 football

01:53:07.860 player

01:53:08.160 he

01:53:08.320 played

01:53:08.480 linebacker

01:53:09.460 in

01:53:09.580 college

01:53:09.800 so

01:53:09.980 he's

01:53:10.140 very

01:53:10.460 physically

01:53:10.980 strong

01:53:11.560 and

01:53:11.780 capable

01:53:12.140 and

01:53:12.480 very

01:53:12.700 confident

01:53:13.180 so

01:53:13.700 when

01:53:13.820 we

01:53:13.960 were

01:53:14.080 little

01:53:14.320 he

01:53:14.500 used

01:53:14.680 to

01:53:14.800 just

01:53:15.000 like

01:53:15.220 hold

01:53:15.460 us

01:53:15.620 overhead

01:53:15.940 and

01:53:16.380 run

01:53:16.800 with

01:53:17.000 us

01:53:17.200 so

01:53:17.400 like

01:53:17.620 playing

01:53:18.460 the

01:53:18.640 airplane

01:53:18.960 game

01:53:19.360 with

01:53:19.540 the

01:53:19.680 babies

01:53:19.960 is

01:53:20.160 a

01:53:20.360 Kelly

01:53:20.720 tradition

01:53:21.180 and

01:53:23.120 oh

01:53:23.320 yeah

01:53:23.500 that's

01:53:24.060 insanely

01:53:24.560 exciting

01:53:25.140 imagine

01:53:25.380 being

01:53:25.700 hoisted

01:53:26.120 into

01:53:26.420 the

01:53:26.580 air

01:53:26.720 by

01:53:26.880 someone

01:53:27.160 18

01:53:27.580 feet

01:53:27.940 tall

01:53:28.280 and

01:53:28.520 run

01:53:28.720 down

01:53:28.980 the

01:53:29.180 field

01:53:29.500 yeah

01:53:29.900 so

01:53:30.800 he

01:53:31.000 did

01:53:31.140 that

01:53:31.260 kind

01:53:31.440 of

01:53:31.520 stuff

01:53:31.700 with

01:53:31.860 us

01:53:32.040 all

01:53:32.780 the

01:53:32.940 time

01:53:33.140 when

01:53:33.280 I

01:53:33.380 was

01:53:33.520 little

01:53:33.760 and

01:53:36.720 you

01:53:37.540 know

01:53:37.640 he

01:53:37.800 took

01:53:38.040 me

01:53:38.200 out

01:53:38.400 to

01:53:38.580 catch

01:53:38.860 frogs

01:53:39.540 and

01:53:39.760 salamanders

01:53:40.380 and

01:53:40.640 introduced

01:53:40.980 the

01:53:41.140 natural

01:53:41.400 world

01:53:41.800 to

01:53:42.000 me

01:53:42.200 and

01:53:42.380 helped

01:53:42.840 me

01:53:42.960 learn

01:53:43.140 to

01:53:43.320 swim

01:53:43.600 by

01:53:43.780 showing

01:53:44.040 me

01:53:44.200 how

01:53:44.340 frogs

01:53:44.780 swim

01:53:45.120 so

01:53:45.660 I

01:53:45.760 was

01:53:45.860 going

01:53:46.040 to

01:53:46.180 formal

01:53:46.620 classes

01:53:47.060 and

01:53:47.240 I

01:53:47.280 was

01:53:47.360 really

01:53:47.500 struggling

01:53:47.840 in the

01:53:48.080 formal

01:53:48.260 classes

01:53:48.720 and

01:53:49.440 so

01:53:49.540 my

01:53:49.680 dad

01:53:49.840 actually

01:53:50.060 took

01:53:50.260 me

01:53:50.400 to

01:53:50.540 a

01:53:50.700 pond

01:53:51.060 and

01:53:51.280 we

01:53:51.420 watched

01:53:51.740 the

01:53:51.920 frog

01:53:52.220 swim

01:53:52.500 and

01:53:52.680 he

01:53:53.340 took

01:53:53.760 me

01:53:53.880 into

01:53:53.980 the

01:53:54.100 water

01:53:54.340 and

01:53:54.480 I

01:53:54.580 learned

01:53:54.780 to

01:53:54.940 breaststroke

01:53:55.540 by

01:53:55.900 watching

01:53:56.580 frogs

01:53:57.100 and

01:53:57.900 so

01:53:58.040 I

01:53:58.140 had

01:53:58.280 my

01:53:59.320 dad's

01:53:59.600 name

01:54:01.700 for anyone

01:54:01.960 who's

01:54:02.060 interested

01:54:02.260 is

01:54:02.400 Sunray

01:54:02.700 Kelly

01:54:02.960 and

01:54:03.140 he's

01:54:03.280 kind

01:54:03.840 of

01:54:03.940 a

01:54:04.760 pretty

01:54:05.620 well

01:54:06.140 known

01:54:06.320 natural

01:54:06.660 builder

01:54:06.940 his

01:54:07.140 work's

01:54:07.420 been

01:54:07.540 featured

01:54:07.800 in

01:54:08.340 various

01:54:08.820 TV

01:54:09.080 shows

01:54:09.480 and

01:54:09.700 books

01:54:10.240 so

01:54:12.440 he

01:54:12.620 has

01:54:12.780 a

01:54:12.880 very

01:54:13.040 magical

01:54:13.500 strange

01:54:15.020 world

01:54:15.480 that he

01:54:16.160 lives

01:54:16.380 within

01:54:16.640 that's

01:54:16.900 pretty

01:54:17.180 great

01:54:17.780 for a

01:54:18.040 child

01:54:18.220 in

01:54:18.420 certain

01:54:18.620 ways

01:54:18.940 but

01:54:20.020 he

01:54:20.600 had

01:54:20.900 a

01:54:21.060 really

01:54:21.380 traumatic

01:54:21.940 experience

01:54:22.560 of school

01:54:22.960 as well

01:54:23.540 and

01:54:24.480 when I

01:54:24.940 started

01:54:25.300 school

01:54:25.620 and he

01:54:25.920 saw

01:54:26.280 me

01:54:26.480 doing

01:54:26.760 that

01:54:27.020 I

01:54:27.420 think

01:54:27.560 it

01:54:27.640 was

01:54:27.720 very

01:54:27.980 hard

01:54:28.220 for

01:54:28.380 him

01:54:28.520 emotionally

01:54:28.980 and

01:54:30.120 so

01:54:31.740 I

01:54:31.860 think

01:54:32.000 he

01:54:32.120 sort

01:54:32.720 of

01:54:32.880 pulled

01:54:33.800 back

01:54:34.140 from

01:54:34.340 me

01:54:34.540 at

01:54:34.740 that

01:54:34.900 stage

01:54:35.340 and

01:54:36.140 then

01:54:36.400 how

01:54:37.400 old

01:54:37.600 would

01:54:37.760 you

01:54:37.900 been

01:54:38.120 then

01:54:38.420 six

01:54:38.840 years

01:54:39.040 old

01:54:39.360 five

01:54:41.240 and

01:54:41.360 had

01:54:41.600 that

01:54:41.820 underlying

01:54:42.360 so

01:54:42.640 you

01:54:42.820 had

01:54:43.040 you

01:54:43.200 had

01:54:43.380 six

01:54:43.740 years

01:54:44.100 there

01:54:44.340 where

01:54:44.560 you

01:54:44.720 built

01:54:45.020 that

01:54:45.300 physical

01:54:45.680 connection

01:54:46.220 so

01:54:46.900 that

01:54:47.100 you

01:54:47.660 got

01:54:47.900 through

01:54:48.120 that

01:54:48.400 crucial

01:54:48.760 developmental

01:54:49.280 period

01:54:49.800 with that

01:54:50.580 paternal

01:54:50.940 relationship

01:54:51.520 very

01:54:52.020 functional

01:54:52.460 and

01:54:52.680 intact

01:54:53.160 you

01:54:53.640 know

01:54:53.740 one

01:54:53.900 of

01:54:53.980 the

01:54:54.080 things

01:54:54.260 we

01:54:54.420 should

01:54:54.620 point

01:54:54.860 out

01:54:55.040 here

01:54:55.200 for

01:54:55.400 any

01:54:55.600 mothers

01:54:55.940 who

01:54:56.140 are

01:54:56.260 listening

01:54:56.640 who

01:54:58.100 are

01:54:58.340 apprehensive

01:54:59.300 about

01:54:59.680 watching

01:55:00.180 their

01:55:00.560 spouses

01:55:01.600 their

01:55:01.920 husbands

01:55:02.360 play

01:55:02.820 with

01:55:03.100 their

01:55:03.300 children

01:55:03.760 well

01:55:04.800 the

01:55:04.900 first

01:55:07.900 pay

01:55:08.140 attention

01:55:08.740 like

01:55:09.080 watch

01:55:09.720 because

01:55:10.280 you're

01:55:10.460 going

01:55:10.560 to be

01:55:10.740 afraid

01:55:11.080 to turn

01:55:11.380 away

01:55:11.620 and

01:55:11.800 maybe

01:55:12.020 want

01:55:12.320 to

01:55:12.420 interfere

01:55:12.860 and

01:55:13.560 so

01:55:13.760 don't

01:55:14.340 turn

01:55:14.600 away

01:55:14.960 and

01:55:15.260 don't

01:55:15.500 leave

01:55:15.720 the

01:55:15.900 room

01:55:16.080 watch

01:55:16.960 and

01:55:17.700 watch

01:55:18.060 your

01:55:18.260 kids

01:55:18.560 because

01:55:18.780 if

01:55:18.940 your

01:55:19.120 kids

01:55:19.400 are

01:55:19.620 laughing

01:55:20.140 here's

01:55:20.700 a

01:55:20.840 rule

01:55:21.040 if

01:55:21.220 your

01:55:21.380 kids

01:55:21.580 are

01:55:21.720 playing

01:55:21.980 with

01:55:22.200 their

01:55:22.380 father

01:55:22.700 and

01:55:22.980 they're

01:55:23.180 not

01:55:23.520 crying

01:55:24.100 everything's

01:55:25.400 okay

01:55:25.820 especially

01:55:26.620 if

01:55:26.880 they're

01:55:27.100 laughing

01:55:27.560 but

01:55:28.360 you

01:55:28.640 know

01:55:28.740 they

01:55:28.960 don't

01:55:29.580 have

01:55:29.840 to be

01:55:30.100 laughing

01:55:30.400 all

01:55:30.580 the

01:55:30.700 time

01:55:30.880 they

01:55:31.020 can

01:55:31.180 even

01:55:31.400 be

01:55:31.700 looking

01:55:32.480 afraid

01:55:32.920 as

01:55:33.100 long

01:55:33.300 as

01:55:33.460 they're

01:55:33.620 not

01:55:33.940 crying

01:55:34.500 the

01:55:35.520 frame

01:55:35.960 is

01:55:36.160 intact

01:55:36.560 and

01:55:36.880 you

01:55:37.000 don't

01:55:37.180 have

01:55:37.400 to

01:55:37.560 worry

01:55:37.860 and

01:55:38.340 you

01:55:38.460 know

01:55:38.620 even

01:55:39.000 if

01:55:39.200 there

01:55:39.340 are

01:55:39.540 tears

01:55:39.840 upon

01:55:40.200 occasion

01:55:40.760 you

01:55:41.300 know

01:55:41.400 as

01:55:41.540 long

01:55:41.720 as

01:55:41.840 they're

01:55:41.960 not

01:55:42.160 screams

01:55:42.860 of

01:55:43.120 agony

01:55:43.520 and

01:55:43.760 outrage

01:55:44.400 a

01:55:45.840 little

01:55:46.040 bit

01:55:46.240 of

01:55:46.420 tears

01:55:46.760 is

01:55:47.000 also

01:55:47.340 not

01:55:47.840 indicative

01:55:49.700 that

01:55:50.040 something

01:55:50.340 terrible

01:55:50.740 has

01:55:50.940 happened

01:55:51.200 because

01:55:51.540 when

01:55:52.220 you're

01:55:52.400 playing

01:55:52.680 there's

01:55:52.920 going

01:55:53.060 to

01:55:53.140 be

01:55:53.400 mishaps

01:55:54.040 from

01:55:54.280 time

01:55:54.520 to

01:55:54.640 time

01:55:54.860 and

01:55:54.960 the

01:55:55.080 kid

01:55:55.220 has

01:55:55.440 to

01:55:55.580 learn

01:55:55.740 to

01:55:55.900 deal

01:55:56.080 with

01:55:56.260 the

01:55:56.400 mishaps

01:55:56.860 too

01:55:57.160 you

01:55:57.680 know

01:55:57.820 people

01:55:58.100 are

01:55:58.240 going

01:55:58.340 to

01:55:58.400 get

01:55:58.540 hurt

01:55:58.780 they're

01:55:59.040 going

01:55:59.140 to

01:55:59.220 get

01:55:59.360 a

01:55:59.520 thumb

01:55:59.940 in

01:56:00.060 the

01:56:00.180 eye

01:56:00.400 or

01:56:00.540 whatever

01:56:00.740 the 0.97

01:56:00.900 hell

01:56:01.080 it

01:56:01.200 is

01:56:01.420 or

01:56:01.520 be

01:56:01.680 pushed

01:56:01.900 a little

01:56:02.140 bit

01:56:02.320 too

01:56:02.500 far

01:56:02.820 to

01:56:04.660 play

01:56:04.920 properly

01:56:05.320 with

01:56:05.560 someone

01:56:05.820 is

01:56:06.060 going

01:56:06.280 to

01:56:06.500 mean

01:56:06.900 that

01:56:07.100 now

01:56:07.380 and

01:56:07.520 then

01:56:07.760 you're

01:56:08.320 pushed

01:56:08.540 a little

01:56:08.780 farther

01:56:09.080 than

01:56:09.320 you

01:56:09.460 should

01:56:09.700 be

01:56:09.920 it's

01:56:10.500 really

01:56:10.720 necessary

01:56:11.220 for

01:56:11.520 women 1.00

01:56:11.760 to

01:56:11.980 learn

01:56:12.280 to

01:56:12.460 watch

01:56:12.780 that

01:56:13.000 but

01:56:13.160 also

01:56:13.460 and

01:56:14.080 to

01:56:14.260 learn

01:56:14.440 how

01:56:14.600 to

01:56:14.740 discriminate

01:56:15.200 what's

01:56:15.680 fun

01:56:15.940 from

01:56:16.200 what's

01:56:17.440 dangerous

01:56:17.800 and

01:56:18.020 not

01:56:18.240 interfere

01:56:18.760 yeah

01:56:19.220 this

01:56:19.480 is

01:56:19.620 a big

01:56:19.920 passion

01:56:20.580 of mine

01:56:21.080 right

01:56:21.360 as

01:56:21.620 someone

01:56:21.800 who

01:56:21.960 grew up

01:56:22.240 with

01:56:22.400 the

01:56:22.560 experiences

01:56:23.000 that

01:56:23.240 I

01:56:23.340 had

01:56:23.640 and

01:56:23.820 who

01:56:24.380 is

01:56:24.520 the

01:56:24.620 type

01:56:24.760 of

01:56:24.860 person

01:56:25.080 that

01:56:25.240 I

01:56:25.360 am

01:56:25.560 like

01:56:26.340 I've

01:56:26.580 played

01:56:26.780 with

01:56:26.940 my

01:56:27.120 kids

01:56:27.280 really

01:56:27.480 intensely

01:56:27.760 and

01:56:27.900 my

01:56:28.080 wife

01:56:28.280 is

01:56:28.380 very

01:56:28.580 accepting

01:56:28.940 of

01:56:29.140 it

01:56:29.380 and

01:56:30.280 it's

01:56:30.440 been

01:56:30.560 very

01:56:30.760 interesting

01:56:31.040 to

01:56:31.240 watch

01:56:31.600 how

01:56:31.860 the

01:56:32.160 kids

01:56:32.560 you

01:56:33.640 talk

01:56:33.880 about

01:56:34.020 the

01:56:34.140 idea

01:56:34.300 that

01:56:34.700 the

01:56:34.960 male

01:56:36.280 role

01:56:36.520 is

01:56:36.660 to

01:56:36.800 encourage

01:56:37.180 the

01:56:37.360 child

01:56:37.620 more

01:56:37.940 and

01:56:38.220 the

01:56:38.340 female 0.86

01:56:38.560 role

01:56:38.780 is

01:56:38.920 to

01:56:39.040 nurture

01:56:39.220 the

01:56:39.400 child

01:56:39.620 more

01:56:39.860 and

01:56:40.460 what's

01:56:40.620 really

01:56:40.760 interesting

01:56:40.960 to me

01:56:41.220 is how

01:56:41.500 the

01:56:41.680 kids

01:56:42.000 self-select

01:56:42.740 that

01:56:43.020 right

01:56:43.480 like

01:56:44.080 if

01:56:44.440 they

01:56:44.640 are

01:56:44.800 when

01:56:45.520 they

01:56:45.680 need

01:56:46.100 nurturance

01:56:46.660 they

01:56:47.080 will

01:56:47.220 come

01:56:47.440 to

01:56:47.600 me

01:56:47.760 if

01:56:48.120 their

01:56:48.280 mother

01:56:48.440 is

01:56:48.580 unavailable

01:56:49.060 and

01:56:49.640 I

01:56:49.760 will

01:56:49.880 nurture

01:56:50.080 them

01:56:50.340 and

01:56:50.460 do

01:56:51.540 what

01:56:51.700 they

01:56:51.840 need

01:56:52.100 but

01:56:53.340 if

01:56:53.860 she's

01:56:54.060 available

01:56:54.400 and

01:56:55.600 they're

01:56:55.900 hurt

01:56:56.500 and

01:56:56.620 they're

01:56:56.740 crying

01:56:57.100 or

01:56:57.240 whatever

01:56:57.500 they

01:56:57.920 don't

01:56:58.540 want

01:56:58.740 me

01:56:58.960 to

01:56:59.240 do

01:56:59.400 anything

01:56:59.720 they

01:56:59.860 want

01:57:01.200 mom

01:57:01.400 it's

01:57:02.020 like

01:57:02.180 my

01:57:02.440 job

01:57:02.680 is

01:57:02.800 to

01:57:03.060 take

01:57:03.300 them

01:57:03.480 to

01:57:03.660 mom

01:57:03.960 if

01:57:04.140 necessary

01:57:04.580 right

01:57:05.000 but

01:57:05.900 on

01:57:06.200 the

01:57:06.320 flip

01:57:06.480 side

01:57:06.680 when

01:57:06.960 they're

01:57:07.200 excited

01:57:07.700 and

01:57:07.920 they

01:57:08.040 want

01:57:08.340 to

01:57:08.500 play

01:57:08.820 they

01:57:09.300 want

01:57:09.600 me

01:57:09.900 right

01:57:10.300 they

01:57:10.560 want

01:57:10.800 me

01:57:11.120 to

01:57:11.360 be

01:57:11.640 that

01:57:11.960 facilitator

01:57:12.900 of

01:57:13.120 this

01:57:13.300 intense

01:57:13.760 encouraging

01:57:14.260 play

01:57:14.680 and

01:57:15.540 what

01:57:16.160 I

01:57:16.500 it's

01:57:17.240 tragic

01:57:17.540 to me

01:57:17.820 because

01:57:18.020 I

01:57:18.160 feel

01:57:18.360 like

01:57:18.520 somehow

01:57:18.960 in

01:57:19.200 our

01:57:19.340 culture

01:57:19.700 the

01:57:20.280 value

01:57:20.620 of

01:57:20.780 that

01:57:20.900 masculine

01:57:21.280 role

01:57:21.700 of

01:57:22.040 providing

01:57:22.660 the

01:57:22.960 encouragement

01:57:23.440 of the

01:57:23.700 child

01:57:23.960 it's

01:57:24.820 really

01:57:25.060 been

01:57:25.280 missed

01:57:25.660 and

01:57:25.860 I

01:57:26.000 see

01:57:26.180 all

01:57:26.440 the

01:57:26.600 time

01:57:27.000 this

01:57:27.300 kind

01:57:27.600 of

01:57:28.260 dysfunctional

01:57:30.060 hyper

01:57:30.700 feminization

01:57:31.280 of the

01:57:31.560 way

01:57:31.660 that we

01:57:31.900 treat

01:57:32.200 children

01:57:32.540 when I

01:57:33.120 go to

01:57:33.300 the

01:57:33.420 park

01:57:33.700 you know

01:57:35.200 I was

01:57:35.780 at the

01:57:35.960 park

01:57:36.080 the

01:57:36.200 other

01:57:36.300 day

01:57:36.500 and

01:57:36.640 you

01:57:36.740 were

01:57:36.820 talking

01:57:37.040 about

01:57:37.380 you

01:57:38.020 know

01:57:38.100 the

01:57:38.220 kids

01:57:38.440 doing

01:57:38.660 the

01:57:38.780 little

01:57:38.900 competitive

01:57:39.260 thing

01:57:39.620 so

01:57:40.100 my

01:57:40.280 daughter

01:57:40.580 is

01:57:40.740 there

01:57:41.020 my

01:57:41.320 five

01:57:41.580 year

01:57:41.700 old

01:57:41.880 and

01:57:42.040 there's

01:57:42.220 this

01:57:49.700 she

01:57:52.960 ends

01:57:54.120 up

01:57:54.360 trying

01:57:54.660 to

01:57:55.180 do

01:57:55.300 the

01:57:55.460 monkey

01:57:55.680 bars

01:57:55.920 she

01:57:56.080 just

01:57:56.280 learned

01:57:56.480 to

01:57:56.580 do

01:57:56.680 the

01:57:56.780 monkey

01:57:56.960 bars

01:57:57.260 and

01:57:57.860 she

01:57:58.000 ends

01:57:58.120 up

01:57:58.240 hanging

01:57:58.440 from

01:57:58.660 one

01:57:58.840 hand

01:57:59.040 and

01:57:59.140 just

01:57:59.280 spinning

01:58:00.060 around

01:58:00.740 her

01:58:00.980 hand

01:58:01.220 for

01:58:01.360 a

01:58:01.480 long

01:58:01.620 time

01:58:01.820 because

01:58:01.960 she

01:58:02.100 can't

01:58:02.320 make

01:58:02.480 the

01:58:02.600 next

01:58:02.780 grab

01:58:03.120 and

01:58:04.320 then

01:58:04.600 the

01:58:05.360 little

01:58:05.520 boy

01:58:05.720 gets

01:58:05.940 up

01:58:06.100 and

01:58:06.200 he

01:58:06.320 tries

01:58:06.520 to

01:58:06.660 repeat

01:58:07.140 what

01:58:07.360 she

01:58:07.540 did

01:58:07.880 and

01:58:09.140 his

01:58:09.380 grandfather

01:58:10.560 comes

01:58:11.060 over

01:58:11.260 and

01:58:11.360 he's

01:58:11.400 like

01:58:11.500 don't

01:58:11.660 do

01:58:11.780 that

01:58:11.920 that

01:58:12.300 that's

01:58:12.500 bad

01:58:12.680 for

01:58:12.820 your

01:58:12.980 shoulder

01:58:13.280 I'm

01:58:14.500 like

01:58:14.700 do

01:58:16.320 you

01:58:16.420 know

01:58:16.600 that

01:58:16.960 right

01:58:17.380 like

01:58:17.580 why

01:58:17.880 are

01:58:18.000 you

01:58:18.120 feeding

01:58:18.340 that

01:58:18.620 fear

01:58:18.960 to

01:58:19.100 your

01:58:19.220 child

01:58:19.460 all

01:58:19.880 the

01:58:20.020 time

01:58:20.300 like

01:58:20.500 we're

01:58:20.840 running

01:58:21.420 jumping

01:58:21.780 climbing

01:58:22.220 in

01:58:22.540 these

01:58:22.720 public

01:58:23.000 spaces

01:58:23.400 with

01:58:23.680 our

01:58:23.840 kids

01:58:24.100 and

01:58:24.640 you'll

01:58:24.780 hear

01:58:24.900 people

01:58:25.100 say

01:58:25.320 don't

01:58:25.820 do

01:58:25.920 that

01:58:26.040 you're

01:58:26.200 going

01:58:26.300 to

01:58:26.340 get

01:58:26.460 hurt

01:58:26.680 don't

01:58:27.260 do

01:58:27.360 that

01:58:27.560 you're

01:58:27.820 you know

01:58:28.100 that's

01:58:28.340 dangerous

01:58:28.780 and

01:58:29.600 what

01:58:30.240 I

01:58:30.380 think

01:58:30.560 is

01:58:30.700 that

01:58:30.900 our

01:58:32.220 role

01:58:32.600 is

01:58:32.860 as

01:58:33.200 parents

01:58:33.720 is

01:58:34.060 to

01:58:34.400 grow

01:58:35.360 children

01:58:35.820 into

01:58:36.100 highly

01:58:42.820 unnecessary

01:58:43.500 fears

01:58:44.060 and

01:58:44.400 build

01:58:44.800 resilience

01:58:45.240 into

01:58:45.480 the

01:58:45.620 child

01:58:45.920 instead

01:58:46.360 of

01:58:46.560 inculcating

01:58:47.160 exactly

01:58:47.700 that's

01:58:48.000 exactly

01:58:48.280 the

01:58:48.440 word

01:58:48.680 you

01:58:49.220 should

01:58:49.500 be 0.98

01:58:50.540 neurotic

01:58:51.160 and

01:58:51.400 fearful

01:58:51.840 and

01:58:52.240 apprehensive

01:58:54.780 it is

01:58:55.380 it's

01:58:55.580 happening

01:58:55.880 all the

01:58:56.220 time

01:58:56.460 no wonder

01:58:57.560 kids

01:58:57.900 are

01:58:58.140 demoralized

01:58:59.260 because

01:58:59.560 they're

01:59:00.240 bombarded

01:59:00.800 with

01:59:01.060 demoralizing

01:59:01.780 messages

01:59:02.280 all the

01:59:02.640 time

01:59:02.800 don't

01:59:03.140 do

01:59:03.280 that

01:59:03.500 you'll

01:59:03.720 get

01:59:03.880 hurt

01:59:04.160 it's

01:59:04.400 like

01:59:04.580 yeah

01:59:05.220 well

01:59:05.600 you know

01:59:06.240 don't

01:59:06.960 do

01:59:07.180 that

01:59:07.520 and

01:59:08.080 you'll

01:59:08.320 get

01:59:08.520 hurt

01:59:08.880 the

01:59:09.840 hurt

01:59:10.040 is

01:59:10.260 unavoidable

01:59:10.940 the

01:59:11.160 question

01:59:11.460 is whether

01:59:11.820 or not

01:59:12.020 you can

01:59:12.300 master

01:59:12.700 it

01:59:12.920 and

01:59:13.080 it's

01:59:14.640 a very

01:59:15.120 sad

01:59:15.480 thing

01:59:15.760 to see

01:59:16.100 that

01:59:16.360 sense

01:59:16.660 disappear

01:59:17.260 and also

01:59:18.000 to have

01:59:18.720 it replaced

01:59:19.240 by a

01:59:19.600 kind of

01:59:20.440 insistent

01:59:21.760 moralizing

01:59:22.480 too

01:59:22.780 it's not

01:59:23.600 only you

01:59:24.020 shouldn't

01:59:24.360 do that

01:59:24.800 if you

01:59:25.420 facilitate

01:59:26.080 it or

01:59:26.560 allow it

01:59:27.020 as a

01:59:27.320 parent

01:59:27.600 you're

01:59:27.880 somehow

01:59:28.200 criminally

01:59:29.620 derelict

01:59:30.180 in your

01:59:30.600 duties

01:59:31.040 and we're

01:59:31.680 almost at

01:59:32.180 that point

01:59:32.660 in our

01:59:32.980 culture

01:59:33.280 now

01:59:33.660 we're

01:59:33.980 being

01:59:34.340 bad

01:59:34.900 examples

01:59:35.380 when we

01:59:35.780 go out

01:59:36.060 and do

01:59:36.240 parkour

01:59:36.580 in public

01:59:36.960 because

01:59:37.300 some

01:59:37.780 kid's

01:59:38.080 going to

01:59:38.260 try to

01:59:38.520 do it

01:59:38.740 and get

01:59:41.460 to understand

01:59:44.880 the appropriate

01:59:45.720 level of

01:59:46.420 challenge

01:59:46.720 for them

01:59:47.040 like when

01:59:48.060 my kids

01:59:48.520 try to do

01:59:48.980 something

01:59:49.220 that I'm

01:59:50.000 afraid of

01:59:50.840 I try not

01:59:51.900 to say

01:59:52.200 don't do

01:59:52.940 that

01:59:53.220 or

01:59:53.620 just be

01:59:54.600 careful

01:59:54.980 what I try

01:59:55.960 to say

01:59:56.240 is

01:59:56.400 how can

01:59:57.580 I help

01:59:57.840 you do

01:59:58.060 that

01:59:58.340 right

01:59:59.100 or

01:59:59.720 how can

02:00:00.600 we set

02:00:01.020 this up

02:00:01.460 like

02:00:02.160 my son

02:00:03.980 taught himself

02:00:04.460 to do a

02:00:04.760 backflip

02:00:05.100 the other

02:00:05.360 day

02:00:05.580 and he

02:00:06.580 was just

02:00:06.920 gonna

02:00:07.080 he's

02:00:08.180 learned it

02:00:08.520 on a

02:00:08.720 trampoline

02:00:09.080 and decided

02:00:09.480 he was

02:00:09.760 ready to

02:00:10.100 do it

02:00:10.280 on the

02:00:10.480 ground

02:00:10.700 and

02:00:11.580 I was

02:00:12.240 like

02:00:12.340 okay

02:00:12.520 do you

02:00:12.720 want

02:00:12.820 me

02:00:12.900 to

02:00:13.000 spot

02:00:13.240 you

02:00:13.460 he's

02:00:13.700 like

02:00:13.840 no

02:00:14.120 I was

02:00:14.840 like

02:00:14.940 do you

02:00:15.160 want

02:00:15.300 me

02:00:15.400 to

02:00:15.500 give

02:00:15.620 you

02:00:15.700 some

02:00:15.860 drills

02:00:16.120 to

02:01:40.700 Ó

02:01:56.680 use

02:01:57.120 as

02:01:57.200 well

02:01:57.400 understand play, it's easy for her to confuse that with aggression and carelessness and to 0.72

02:02:04.280 inhibit it then. And that can elicit negative responses on the part of the husband that look

02:02:10.820 like aggression. And so you get a terrible spiral developing there. And the retreat from it. Because

02:02:16.600 if the central thing that you have, the most important gift that you have to offer a child

02:02:21.560 is not accepted as valuable by your partner. Have you heard of anything more chilling than

02:02:26.240 frozen beef? Until November 3rd, get an always fresh, never frozen Dave single from Wendy's for

02:02:32.600 only $4. Nothing scary about that. Taxes extra at participating Wendy's until November 3rd. Terms

02:02:38.200 and conditions apply. Like that's, you know, like punishing people for their virtues is the worst

02:02:44.060 thing you can do. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I saw that how I see that happening in families all the

02:02:48.160 time. The fathers end up alienated from the children because every time they try to interact, they get

02:02:53.040 micro-punished. Yeah. And it just, and it just, after a hundred attempts, they just give up. It's

02:02:58.400 really not good. Well, you also pointed out something very important. You know, you said that

02:03:02.700 the children, if you watch your children, they'll calibrate their requirement. So one of the things

02:03:09.760 parents should know, because you might ask, well, how much should you be around your children? And the

02:03:14.620 answer is, well, it depends on the child. And so that's problematic. But the children will, like,

02:03:21.000 for example, children who need to seek for security will seek out someone to offer them security when

02:03:27.980 they need it. And one of the things you want to be, do as a primary caregiver is to be available for

02:03:33.900 that. Yeah. So you say, go out, go out and play. But if you need me, I'm here. And then the kid will go

02:03:39.720 out and play. And if something happens that's untoward, come back for a little bit of comfort,

02:03:43.580 you know, from the mother, let's say, a pat and kiss. And then that'll sort of put them back

02:03:48.140 together, reestablish that security, and then they can go out and play again. But as you said,

02:03:53.580 the child will choose whether it's time for some nurturance and security or whether it's time for

02:03:59.860 some boisterous encouragement. And that does tend to be somewhat sex segregated, which isn't to say

02:04:05.760 that, you know, a father can play a maternal role and a mother can play an encouraging paternal role.

02:04:11.020 But it does tend to differentiate itself sexually.

02:04:14.180 Yeah, I think it's really important for fathers to cultivate their capacity for nourish,

02:04:19.140 nurturance, and for mothers to cultivate their capacity for encouragement. We need to

02:04:22.960 be available to hold that bandwidth for our children as needed. But we also have to recognize

02:04:28.760 that we have unique strengths, right? It's like, there's just things that, like, my kids,

02:04:34.000 well, they're getting well-trained enough as martial artists that I can't really do this

02:04:38.380 anymore. But they, I used to just have an open rule. If they wanted to come up and punch somebody,

02:04:42.260 they could just come and punch me and it was fine, right? And so, like, you know, my kids can belt 0.56

02:04:49.640 and it's, I'm very proud of it.

02:04:52.600 Well, and even that, you know, even that's something that's frowned on. Like, I taught both

02:04:57.740 my kids to punch when they were very little, you know, and I taught them how to use their whole

02:05:01.700 body to really, you know, to really give me a good whack. And of course, they really liked that.

02:05:06.700 But the knee-jerk response to that is, well, your children should never have to resort to violence.

02:05:11.680 It's like, well, first of all, if they can resort to violence, they're much likely, less likely to

02:05:18.980 have to. And because they're not intimidated when the local bully decides to determine if they're a

02:05:24.460 target for harassment. Because they knew perfectly well that they had something at their disposal that

02:05:29.720 was likely to be effective. They also really enjoyed learning to punch. And I would say that

02:05:34.560 was even more true of my daughter than it was of my son. You know, he was interested in it and into

02:05:41.300 it, but my daughter was really into it and she actually got pretty good at it. And that ability 0.98

02:05:46.260 to throw a punch and to take a punch, that's pretty necessary if you're, well, engaged in anything

02:05:51.740 that's agonistic. And that's obviously going to happen to you when you're a kid because the bullies

02:05:55.920 are going to come and test you out. Yeah. I mean, I think it's my friend,

02:05:59.880 Rory Miller, who's a great self-defense thinker. He says, you don't get to choose the bad things

02:06:03.920 that happen to you, right? You say you should never have to resort to violence, but violence

02:06:08.960 can occur in your life. It's occurred in my life, right? I've been, you know, I've been hit by

02:06:15.320 caretakers when I was little, people who were supposed to be, you know, taking care of me when my

02:06:22.580 parents weren't there and happened to not be the best people. And then I grew up and I was a

02:06:26.600 bouncer for three years and been attacked on basketball courts and stuff like that. It's like

02:06:31.720 being able to handle myself is great. It also decreases the risk that something really terrible

02:06:37.120 will go wrong, you know, because if you are capable of defending yourself, you can calibrate your

02:06:41.940 response. Precisely. It's when people have no idea how to respond to aggression that really terrible

02:06:48.380 things start to happen. Yeah, that's the bite inhibition talk about with the dogs that we

02:06:53.060 talked about earlier. Right, right. It's the same thing, right? Like if you, this is a big problem

02:06:59.360 with the police right now. We don't have well-trained, physically adept police who actually have

02:07:04.380 highly calibrated, high competency and lower force levels. So when they meet somebody who's actually

02:07:10.740 physically dangerous, the only option they have is their weapon because they don't have any

02:07:17.000 lower level options at their disposal. We need to actually build people. And it's the same thing

02:07:22.500 in your life, right? Like I've, like I said- Have you offered your move play? Have you offered your

02:07:28.420 retreats to police forces? I haven't. I just recently got interviewed by someone who works

02:07:34.340 with the police and I've spoken to a couple of local police departments about these ideas, but I

02:07:38.800 would love to work with law enforcement. Yeah, man, that sounds like a really good idea. That sounds

02:07:43.400 like a really good idea to bring that calibration in. Well, especially for police.

02:07:48.160 Yes. Yeah, yeah. We need to calibrate people to the physicality. And I'll tell you a story

02:07:53.500 because I think this is, this is a fascinating example of like the way that kids self-organize

02:07:57.980 for these things. I saw a video many years ago of a, I think it was a Turkish man and his

02:08:03.940 son. And the son was sitting in the man's lap and he was slapping him in the face. And then

02:08:08.620 the father was slapping the little boy in the face. And it was getting harder and harder.

02:08:14.480 They were exchanging harder and harder slaps. And I felt really, really uncomfortable watching

02:08:19.080 this. But the kid was giggling and giggling and giggling. And I didn't know how to interpret

02:08:25.520 it at the time. But then when my niece was seven years old, she was sitting in my lap and

02:08:30.180 she just slapped me out of nowhere. And I remember really clearly this moment in my mind thinking,

02:08:35.540 I'm going to slap her and that's okay because I don't feel angry. And so I gave her a little 0.54

02:08:41.060 slap. I gave her a little slap and I was very careful that I hit her slightly less hard than 1.00

02:08:45.960 she hit me. And she looked at me like, she was just like, wow, wow, what just happened?

02:08:53.240 And then she slapped me again. And then I slapped her again. And then we did this game. And then

02:08:59.000 for a few months when she saw me, she would initiate this game with me. And then it was over.

02:09:05.000 She doesn't even remember it. But that was very interesting. So then when my oldest daughter

02:09:10.720 was about 18 months, she slapped me. Maybe it was a year or two years, somewhere around

02:09:14.760 there. She slapped me. And I did the same thing with her. I was very, very careful to calibrate

02:09:19.680 the force so that it was less than what she did. But when she hit me harder, she got hit

02:09:25.240 a little bit harder. And so she would do that with me. And then she never hit any.

02:09:29.700 Well, you know what you're doing there. Well, you think, okay, so you might say, well, you

02:09:34.160 never have to resort to violence. It's like, okay, fine. In a utopian world, perhaps, possibly

02:09:39.620 that might be true, although it isn't. But in any case, so you might say then, well, what

02:09:45.000 does a slap mean?

02:09:46.860 Yep.

02:09:47.060 And what a slap means is this. Right? There's no explanation outside of the embodiment.

02:09:52.520 And so if a child slaps you, well, partly it's exploratory behavior. I mean, what does

02:09:58.980 this mean? And what it means is the response. And while it means this, whack, oh, that's

02:10:04.100 what it's like to be slapped.

02:10:05.520 Yeah.

02:10:05.680 Okay. Well, that's interesting. It's like, what's the acceptable limits to that?

02:10:10.420 Well, you do that by that playful calibration. You know, and that can get pretty harsh.

02:10:15.920 And it should get pretty harsh because it should take you to the edge of pain, right?

02:10:19.660 Because that's where you have to see where, well, it's like teasing. I had a rule in my

02:10:24.740 house, which was, you know, you stay on the funny side of the joke because, and you can

02:10:30.240 push it right to the edge because that's where it's really funny. But past that, it's no longer

02:10:34.800 funny. Are you funny or annoying?

02:10:37.100 Yeah.

02:10:37.400 And there's a fine line, man. And it's the same thing you're doing when you're calibrating

02:10:41.240 slaps. It's like, what exactly does this mean? You have to play that out at an embodied

02:10:50.320 level to understand it.

02:10:51.760 Yeah.

02:10:52.160 So it was such a fascinating experience to do that with her and to see that. And then

02:10:57.060 like kids explore, they fight with each other when they're little, right? They try to establish,

02:11:03.260 you know, dominance or whatever. She never had a problem. She never had a physical conflict 0.73

02:11:07.200 with another kid in school. And I was like, I don't know for sure. Obviously it's speculative,

02:11:10.920 but I had this sense that like, she got to explore these things at home. So she didn't

02:11:14.400 have the same, she didn't have the same curiosity. She didn't have the same lack of recognition

02:11:19.060 of what that context meant. And then interestingly, my son did the same thing, but it was different

02:11:24.700 because he hit me so much harder than she hit. And he wanted to play it way more intensely.

02:11:32.700 And it was very interesting because he would, she would slap and then slap a little bit harder

02:11:38.200 and then a little bit harder. She was really like kind of grating up, but he would get

02:11:41.640 excited and then he would rear back and slap me really hard. And then he would cringe.

02:11:46.760 He would know that he'd gone over the line and he'd be like, oh, you know, and he's just

02:11:51.400 a small little kid. Right. And I would look at him like, are we playing? Are you accepting

02:11:57.160 that you're, you've up the ante and now you're going to accept it? And he'd look at me and

02:12:01.100 he would, he would, he would relax and say, okay, no, I, I, I accept what I created. And

02:12:07.580 I would, again, always stay below his force threshold. But then he got to sense that if

02:12:13.800 you push, you'll get pushed back. Right. Yeah. And if you play with the right partner.

02:12:18.300 And also, you know how big the push is, right? Because you said he took bigger leaps. Like

02:12:23.060 he wouldn't know what the scale of the leap is without playing with it. You know, you do

02:12:28.560 that with, you can do that with dogs too, if they're reasonably well-trained, you know,

02:12:32.520 well, a good way to initiate a game with a dog is to give it a whack. Yep. What the dog 0.98

02:12:36.520 will do is bite generally in proportion to the force of the slap. Yep. And dogs find that

02:12:43.060 extremely exciting, you know, and so it's a very quick way of getting a dog to play. A

02:12:47.900 stupid dog can't do it because it'll scare it or it'll startle it or it'll bite or it'll 1.00

02:12:52.020 whine or something, or it'll pee, you know, it'll do something completely inappropriate. 1.00

02:12:55.660 A poorly socialized dog.

02:12:57.200 Halfway. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it can't, it can't calibrate its responses.

02:13:02.840 But here's the problem, Jordan. We are a society of poorly socialized dogs. 0.60

02:13:09.060 Yes, this is definitely true. It's definitely true. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I see that. I see when

02:13:14.600 I'm walking down the street, you know, I see kids because I watch kids all the time and

02:13:18.760 I can just see kids lumbering down the street who haven't been played with. And I can tell because

02:13:24.640 their movements are low resolution. They're blocky. They're, they're inarticulate even in

02:13:29.740 their physical movement, right? There's nothing graceful about them. And those are kids too. Like

02:13:35.280 you'll see a kid like that sort of standing like this in the corner, you know, and you walk by and

02:13:40.500 he doesn't even look at you because he doesn't know how to initiate attention. You go up to a kid

02:13:44.340 like that and poke him and he'll do this. Like it's like a six month old response, eh?

02:13:50.020 Yeah. He'll do this. And then you poke him again, he'll do this. And if you, if you take a kid like

02:13:54.920 that and poke him a dozen times, he'll look at you, right? And then kind of wondering. And then when,

02:14:00.180 once he looks at you, you know, then you can, well, then you can give him a little shove or

02:14:03.840 something and, and get that going. But you see kids like that all the time who've never been played

02:14:08.740 with at all. They have no idea. They have no idea what's going on. They're desperate for it,

02:14:14.000 you know? And the really sad kids you'll see might take you 30 forays before you can entice them out

02:14:22.660 of their shell. And you can tell that not only have they not been played with, but that their attempts

02:14:28.620 to play have met with so much rejection that they're entirely demoralized. It's so sad to see.

02:14:35.440 I, this is another, um, so we've taken away unstructured play from children, which is a

02:14:43.580 disaster. Um, we have replaced it with structured play where we enforce win conditions that don't

02:14:51.000 allow children to self-handicap so that they can actually maintain the game so that it's rewarding

02:14:57.120 for all players. So we are punishing out the play drive in every way that we can as a, as a society.

02:15:06.520 So when, when you go to school and like, you're a highly active, high movement kid like me,

02:15:11.600 they're, they're slapping you down as much as possible to try to instinctify that drive.

02:15:16.640 But then what's really sad is then you take a kid like me maybe, and you put him in soccer and he's,

02:15:21.920 you know, having a great time with soccer because he gets to run and be physical.

02:15:26.860 Maybe he's one of the more talented kids and, and he has success, but then maybe you send him

02:15:31.920 to select soccer. And now maybe he's at the bottom of the pool of select soccer. And now he's riding

02:15:36.520 the bench. Now he's not getting enough exposure. Now he's not getting that 30% success rate that

02:15:43.220 creates that repeated bond. And now what's happening is you actually punished him every time that he's

02:15:50.320 engaging in physicality. And we see this over and over again through the physical system.

02:15:55.100 We're, we're putting kids where we're taking away their self-organized capacity to create a game

02:16:02.180 that's self-sustaining, an infinite type of game. And we're sticking them in adult, um, adult-imposed

02:16:08.080 finite games that actually will inherently punish some percentage of them.

02:16:13.180 Well, what percentage of, of elementary schools don't have recess now? It's a tremendous number. A lot of

02:16:19.180 that's insurance concerns. Yeah, I know. Insurance industry.

02:16:22.380 Liability concerns. Well, we don't really need, we don't really need recess. It's like, I see. So

02:16:27.240 the kids had a little bit of chance to play and now you've made that verboten.

02:16:31.760 Yeah. It's like, it's, it's, it's beyond appalling. So we should let, let me let you wrap up because

02:16:38.640 we're, we're, we're running out of time on the Daily Wire segment. Is there anything else we should talk

02:16:42.980 about? Sorry. I was, I was just about to initiate a, a chat that I think is probably way too deep to

02:16:49.500 get into about how we're simplifying people's behavior to make them more predictable. But

02:16:53.640 let's let, uh, let's save that for another time. Um, okay. You know, the big thing I want to say is

02:16:59.560 just, it's been a huge pleasure. You know, your work's been such an influence in helping me think

02:17:05.420 out these things that I was already experiencing, right? Like what I said to John was that

02:17:09.440 there's this emergent thing that was happening within parkour. And then for me with parkour and

02:17:15.340 nature and martial arts, when I, so I was teaching people and when I was teaching people, what I

02:17:24.920 noticed was if I told them a study and I told them statistics about how this would make them

02:17:29.740 better, it kind of went in one ear and went out the other. But if I told them a story about

02:17:34.880 something that I experienced that was transformative, you'd see their eyes light up. So I

02:17:39.420 started to recognize that narrative had power. And then I started recognizing that ultimately

02:17:45.060 the purpose of the meaning practice had to be beyond the, or the purpose of the movement

02:17:49.880 practice had to be beyond it, right? It had to be meaning oriented. So when I saw that first

02:17:54.120 interview with you and Joe Rogan, when you got to the port where you're laying out your archetypal

02:17:58.840 and narrative thoughts, it, it was this ignition moment for me. And I just, I absorbed everything

02:18:06.080 you put out, right? Between 2016, 2017. And I got to the end of that year and I couldn't understand

02:18:11.280 why I was so obsessed with what you're talking about at that stage. But I went to teach. And as I

02:18:16.600 was teaching, the stuff that I kind of had already brewed in my brain and the stuff that you were

02:18:20.880 talking about, it was like, boom, they came together. And I saw that, that fundamentally we have to be

02:18:26.620 nested in these narratives and those narratives have to be acted out physically. And that's how we

02:18:30.920 actually bring meaning into the world. And, and, and, and it, it, it just, it feels like

02:18:37.480 the, the physical practice, and it's not me alone. There's, there's other people who are,

02:18:42.440 who are evolving in very similar directions. The physical practices and how they can impact us

02:18:46.860 at these higher dimensions of, of ourself. They, they're emerging. They're emerging in a, in a way

02:18:54.800 that is reflective of the body of theory that guys like yourself and John have offered. And to be

02:19:01.120 able to bring that together and offer it to people is a really, just a huge pleasure. And to have this

02:19:06.900 conversation with you. Oh yeah. It's really, yeah, that's, that's it. I, if people want to experience it.

02:19:11.220 It's so cool to see this coming from the bottom up. Yeah. It's just see this, the, being laid out at the

02:19:16.160 level of embodiment. Yeah. It's so cool to see these higher order, abstract moral conceptions make

02:19:22.120 themselves manifest at the, well, at the lowest physiological level upward. It's a great thing

02:19:26.920 to see. Yeah. That's the material world reaching up to the sky. It is. Really what it is. Archetyptically

02:19:32.300 speaking. Yeah. It's so cool to see. It's lovely. So it was a pleasure talking to you. Yeah, absolutely.

02:19:37.220 Hopefully we'll get a chance to meet at one of these conferences that seem to be springing up. And,

02:19:42.060 and for everybody who's watching and listening, you, you can go check out Rafe's site. That's

02:19:47.720 evolveplaymove.com. Evolvemoveplay.com. Especially if you're young. Oh, sorry.

02:19:52.120 Evolvemoveplay.com. Especially if you're a young parent or you're dealing with young kids and

02:19:56.180 you can find a community of play practitioners. And maybe you can start thinking too about how you

02:20:01.460 could integrate the spirit of play into your own life, because man, that's something you certainly

02:20:05.620 want to do. It's the highest form of action. It's the real sign of mastery to do something difficult

02:20:10.940 with, with the spirit of play. It's a sign of, uh, uh, the highest level of neurological integration.

02:20:17.180 As far as I can tell, it's certainly the antidote to tyranny and probably to slavery. So

02:20:21.760 anyways, it was a pleasure talking to you today. Thank you to everyone watching and listening on

02:20:26.660 the Daily Wire Plus platform, to the film crew here in Saskatoon. And, uh, well, we'll, we'll

02:20:32.880 continue the conversation at some point in the future. Maybe we can have a chat at some point

02:20:36.680 with, uh, Jonathan Paggio and, and, uh, John Berveke. That'd be fun. That'd be amazing. Yeah.

02:20:43.000 Yeah. That'd be good. Let's do that. Thank you, John or Jordan. Jeez. Good. Good to see you,

02:20:48.860 man. Pleasure meeting you. Yeah. Ciao everyone. Bye bye. Have you heard of anything more chilling

02:20:55.940 than frozen beef until November 3rd? Get an always fresh, never frozen Dave single from

02:21:02.120 Wendy's for only $4. Nothing scary about that. Taxes extra participating Wendy's until November 3rd.

02:21:07.940 Terms and conditions apply.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - March 27, 2023

343. Parkour and Rough Play： Combatting Infantilization ｜ Rafe Kelley

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