The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 344. State Treasurers Reject Blackrock. You Should Too ｜ Derek Kreifels

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00:00:57.420 Hello everyone. So I'm talking today with Derek Kreifels, who is CEO of the State Financial Officers Foundation.

00:01:17.240 And normally, perhaps, under normal conditions, that might not be something notable for all concerned,

00:01:25.700 but in the crazy upside-down clown world that we all currently inhabit, this has become incredibly relevant.

00:01:32.140 So I met Derek a couple of days ago, although I've been retweeting a lot of what he's been putting out on Twitter for quite a while.

00:01:38.540 And I wanted to talk to him today so that everybody watching and listening can be brought up to date about what's going on on the financial front

00:01:50.120 in relationship to states and their investment strategies.

00:01:55.120 So, Derek, let's start with a little bit about your background and about your situation, your position right now,

00:02:00.880 and then we'll talk in some detail about exactly what it is that you're doing with the other state financial officers.

00:02:07.040 So, who are you?

00:02:11.180 Well, thank you for the opportunity to be here, first of all.

00:02:14.900 It's an honor to get to talk to you and had an opportunity to see your show and just inspiring to see the young generation

00:02:24.660 respond to truth and courage the way that you've demonstrated it.

00:02:28.300 So, thank you.

00:02:31.160 I'm just a guy from Kansas, from a small town in Kansas.

00:02:34.820 I served as the deputy treasurer of Kansas for six years.

00:02:40.080 During that time, I worked with a group of state treasurers,

00:02:44.600 and we realized that there was a need for an opportunity to come together to talk about some of the state financial issues,

00:02:53.320 public finance issues, both at the federal and state level, from an unapologetically free market perspective.

00:02:59.340 And so, there were other treasurers organizations operating, but none of them really were excited to talk about it from that free market perspective like we were.

00:03:10.180 So, myself and eight other state treasurers co-founded the State Financial Officers Foundation 11 years ago.

00:03:18.660 And together, we've just been raising awareness and educating the public and these officials as they get elected on issues of public finance,

00:03:31.200 whether it's dealing with 529 college savings plans that a lot of the treasurers administer,

00:03:36.100 unclaimed property that they administer, some of them sit on boards of state pensions,

00:03:44.700 some manage enormous state banking contracts, some manage short-term treasuries.

00:03:51.780 And so, we have a saying in our world that if you've seen one state treasurer's office,

00:03:57.600 you've seen one state treasurer's office, because they're all a little bit different based on state statutes.

00:04:02.800 And so, I have this honor to work with all of them across the country and kind of bring them together

00:04:10.100 and help connect the ones that might have another idea that might work in another state.

00:04:15.160 And I try to connect them and be the glue relationally.

00:04:18.740 How many state treasurers are now part of this State Financial Officers Foundation?

00:04:24.700 Great question.

00:04:25.580 So, we started with eight.

00:04:27.380 Now, today, we're at 35 state financial officers.

00:04:31.000 And we say financial officers, Jordan, because we have state treasurers, state auditors, state controllers.

00:04:38.460 Everybody's got a little bit different titles.

00:04:40.160 So, like in Florida, it's CFO Jimmy Petronis.

00:04:42.760 In Texas, it's Comptroller Glenn Hager.

00:04:46.860 So, we have a total of 35 officials from 28 states.

00:04:51.000 28 states.

00:04:51.820 How many of those are Republican?

00:04:55.940 All of them.

00:04:56.740 Okay.

00:04:57.200 So, it's fundamentally a Republican organization.

00:04:59.880 And is that purposeful?

00:05:01.800 Or is it the fact that because it's free market oriented, the Democrats are less likely to involve themselves?

00:05:08.400 Do they have their own equivalent on the Democrat side?

00:05:12.680 Yeah.

00:05:13.380 There is a group called the Democratic Treasurers Association.

00:05:17.160 We are not blatantly Republican, though.

00:05:19.620 We've had an independent treasurer be a part of our group.

00:05:23.900 I think when you, in the beginning, when we would invite other Democratic treasurers and you, you know, use the phrase free market, it just tended to attract a certain kind of elected official.

00:05:34.980 And so, you know, we have opened our doors and invited multiple, you know, folks from different parties in.

00:05:44.180 But, of course, the ones that are really interested and key in on that free market perspective are usually Republicans.

00:05:51.520 Right, right.

00:05:52.540 So, do you want to tell everybody, broadly speaking, what a state treasurer and the other individuals who are involved in your organization, what they're primarily responsible for?

00:06:03.700 And also, how that relates to the elected officials?

00:06:07.360 And then also, why that's relevant for citizens who are listening?

00:06:11.260 Because people need to know, well, why they should care about what state treasurers do. 0.96

00:06:15.600 Like, what impact is it going to have on their day-to-day lives?

00:06:20.000 Absolutely.

00:06:20.820 The easiest way to think about a state treasurer or one of these financial officers is that they really are the chief financial officer for their state.

00:06:29.540 They see the inflows and the outflows.

00:06:32.660 They see the revenues coming in from, you know, tax revenues or other sources.

00:06:37.780 And they see that the way that the state spends the money.

00:06:40.280 Most of them manage the state's checkbook, right?

00:06:42.940 So, they really see the day-to-day transactions.

00:06:47.040 One thing that we did when we first started SFOF was we did a poll and we asked in several states, who do you trust more on state financial matters?

00:06:57.160 We gave them the choice of their governor, their state treasurer, or their member of Congress.

00:07:01.800 And the lowest that a state treasurer received was 60%.

00:07:05.040 The governor was usually 20% to 25%, and the member of Congress, regardless of party, was trusted less than 10% of the time in issues of public finance.

00:07:17.120 And so, we knew that we had a really powerful tool to leverage where, you know, a lot of people don't think about these down-ballot offices very much.

00:07:29.360 You know, it's not as sexy as being governor or U.S. senator.

00:07:35.200 But these men and women are on the front lines watching the dollars and cents.

00:07:40.100 And, frankly, watching how decisions that are made in Washington impact, you know, the lives on the ground in the state from a financial perspective.

00:07:49.700 So, why do you think that the treasurers were more trusted?

00:07:54.760 You know, I think it's just simply because they don't get involved in a lot of other issues.

00:08:03.720 You know, if you take into account, you know, a governor or a member of Congress, well, at first I'd say that when it comes to a member of Congress, you know, there's very few people that I think would say that they could trust the United States Congress in terms of financial restraint or financial responsibility.

00:08:21.720 I think for governors, they're just such – they're involved in such a breadth of issues that, you know, if you – it's much easier to make friends or foes depending on where you land on whether they're social issues or financial issues.

00:08:36.560 And I think, you know, just the simple fact that most of the state treasurers, state auditors really are focused on fiduciary duty, fiduciary responsibility.

00:08:47.380 I think that's why the general public tends to gravitate towards those officials when it comes to things regarding money in their state.

00:08:55.060 How would you define – because this is going to be a crucial issue in our discussion as we go forward – how would you define fiduciary responsibility?

00:09:02.860 I'd say fiduciary responsibility is when someone is in a position of authority responsible for some pool of money or organization of money that they are required by law many times,

00:09:24.500 at least in theory, at least in theory, to do what's best in the best interest of that organization or, in this example, for a state.

00:09:34.120 Right, and so that's – there's also something kind of local about that.

00:09:37.820 So, you know, if you're involved in a corporation and you have a fiduciary responsibility within the corporation,

00:09:45.980 your responsibility to the shareholders of the corporation, and I would say the consumers as well, or the customers,

00:09:54.040 is to do what you can ethically at the level of that institution.

00:09:59.140 And so your proper role is to serve the interests of the shareholders, however that might be constituted,

00:10:06.620 rather than the interests of some third party or alternative organization,

00:10:11.980 which would mean you're in some sense operating as a fifth column.

00:10:14.580 So if you do your fiduciary duty, you're undertaking the role that's been assigned to you at the level that's been assigned to you.

00:10:22.740 And that's going to be a crucial issue as we progress with this conversation because what's been happening,

00:10:28.820 and this is partly why you've become active on Twitter, I would say, and other social media chapters,

00:10:33.320 is that the fiduciary responsibility of states and corporations alike has started to become subordinated to other interests, let's say.

00:10:43.800 And that's particularly true on the ESG front.

00:10:47.520 And so maybe you could walk everybody who's listening through that rat's nest.

00:10:53.300 We could talk about what ESG means, we just need a definition for it,

00:10:56.840 and then also why that the existence of the ESG principles might constitute a conflict with fiduciary duty.

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00:12:44.580 Yeah, that's a lot to unpack.

00:12:47.680 It's a good thing we've got some time.

00:12:49.620 But ESG stands for Environmental, Social, and Governance.

00:12:52.960 And frankly, it's a type of investing where a group of activists are frankly weaponizing public capital money to advance a political agenda.

00:13:09.280 And it could be done in the name of numerous issues.

00:13:16.260 Lately, it's been focused on the environmental climate change issues.

00:13:20.600 The S, the social part of ESG, tends to cover some of the biggest social issues of our time, whether it's abortion, whether it's Second Amendment rights.

00:13:32.400 It can even be connected to some of the issues of anti-Semitism happening around the country.

00:13:38.960 And then governance is under that is just making sure that you have good governance, that you're not maybe making racial quotas, but you're getting good fiduciary members.

00:13:56.320 You're getting good board members that have the experience to be able to turn that, make those decisions for the shareholder the best way they can.

00:14:05.420 Okay, so the people who've been putting this forward are operating.

00:14:08.220 Please correct me at any time when I haven't got this exactly.

00:14:10.900 Sure.

00:14:11.280 So they're putting forward a vision that the corporate enterprise, regardless of at what level it's operating, should be subordinated to a set of hypothetically ethical principles.

00:14:23.840 And that's often brought forward under the guise of stakeholder capitalism, is that merely, merely serving the shareholders' interests isn't sufficient, that corporations should be required, or at least encouraged, but generally required, to take a much broader view of the world.

00:14:42.240 And they should subordinate their corporate concerns to, well, let's walk through it, environmental issues.

00:14:48.440 Well, what does that mean?

00:14:49.480 Well, in principle, what it means is that we accept that the corporations are required to accept the story that the world on the environmental front is hovering on the brink of disaster, positive feedback, or tipping point-induced disaster.

00:15:07.140 That the cause of that is unidimensional, and the cause essentially is overproduction of carbon dioxide, and that that's such a pressing problem that all other issues should be subordinated to its diminishment as rapidly as possible.

00:15:24.360 So that's, and then there's other environmental concerns that might come out of that.

00:15:27.620 But the fundamental issue here is that all corporate enterprises and activities should be subordinated to this radical environmentalist viewpoint.

00:15:37.140 And then on the social front, what you have brought into the fold is essentially the diversity, equity, and inclusivity movement in all of its tentacular splendor.

00:15:48.720 And there's an association with a particularly quite radical left-wing view of the world that gets brought into the corporate domain on that front, insisting that people should be identified primarily by their race or their sex or their gender or their sexual preference.

00:16:04.820 And that that identification constitutes grounds for the distribution of resources and position.

00:16:13.320 And then, well, what's happening with ESG on the governance front is somewhat more unclear, I would say, as opposed to environment and social.

00:16:21.800 But the fundamental proposition here is that merely serving the interests of the corporation and the shareholders is insufficient.

00:16:30.340 That has to be subordinated to a broader view.

00:16:32.480 And, you know, there's something kind of compelling about that because we know that local mere greed on the part of corporate entities can cause a substantial amount of problems.

00:16:43.900 But the emergent problem seems to be that subordinating that fiduciary duty to something like central planning oriented along a radical left environmental apocalyptic scheme is not going to redress those problems.

00:17:00.360 And by any measure that I know of is likely to make them worse.

00:17:04.700 And this has become particularly crucial in recent years for everyone watching and listening because there are major hedge funds in particular, BlackRock and Vanguard, foremost among them, who have, and they control as a staggering amount of investment money.

00:17:23.900 I can, I can, an almost incomprehensible amount of investment money.

00:17:27.680 They've joined the ESG club, so to speak, and are punishing corporations and states who don't abide by ESG mandates.

00:17:36.320 Is that, now, have I got any of that wrong?

00:17:39.400 Yeah, well, I would just, there's a few things I would just clarify.

00:17:43.260 I think that, you know, you're right that these giant fund managers, you know, BlackRock was worth about $8 trillion as of the first of this year.

00:17:54.680 I think State Street is the other one that's really big.

00:17:57.100 It's $3 to $4 trillion.

00:17:59.980 They're really leveraging the money that they manage on behalf of these state pensions, which is, you know, everyday Americans' money.

00:18:08.440 And they're then leveraging them to advance these social causes.

00:18:11.580 And our issue isn't necessarily the fact that someone would choose to invest this way, to invest their personal dollars.

00:18:20.060 If they wanted to invest in a fund that protects the environment or that does, you know, something on a social issue, that's their choice.

00:18:27.380 And that's the great thing about America.

00:18:28.960 But what we have a real problem with is when the billions of dollars that are being invested by BlackRock, by State Street, by some of these other companies, Vanguard has been one of those players.

00:18:44.580 But they've recently just made some public comments.

00:18:47.080 Their CEO, Tim Buckley, was just making some comment about that ESG is not a winning proposition from a financial perspective.

00:18:56.560 Which means, let's point out very clearly, which means that it is not a winning proposition, right?

00:19:03.580 It's like there's no, it's a winning proposition except on the financial front.

00:19:07.940 It's like, no, no, no, that's the measure.

00:19:10.380 And so, yeah, so your argument is people can invest in whatever the hell they want.

00:19:14.700 And absolutely fair enough, you know, if you want to invest in a corporation or buy the products of a corporation that purports to be serving the environment, that's all well and good.

00:19:23.900 But when it starts to become mandatory and failure to do so results in punitive consequences, that's a whole different ball of wax.

00:19:33.600 And, of course, that's exactly the problem that you guys are dealing with at the state treasury level.

00:19:38.140 And the reason for that, just so everyone's clear, is that part of your fiduciary duty is to ensure that such things as people's pension programs are properly funded and invested from an investment perspective.

00:19:53.060 Because your job is to make bloody well sure that the money in the pension funds, for example, is stable and hopefully also growing.

00:20:00.460 And if there are any outside influences that are going to interfere with that, then it's appropriate for you to be, what would you say, to oppose that in every manner that you possibly can.

00:20:12.540 And so that's sort of where we're at at the moment, as far as I can tell.

00:20:16.180 And so what's your organization's concern about and stance with regards to ESG investing and what have you done about it?

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00:21:34.260 Yeah, so we have made a very public stance.

00:21:41.220 Our members, our state treasurers, our public officials, you know, are really working in each of their states to do what they think is best for their state.

00:21:50.400 You know, let me back up and just say that there is this movement internationally that came out of the Glasgow Accords that's Climate Action for Net Zero.

00:22:00.800 There's a group called the Global Financial Alliance for Net Zero, which are basically all of the big banks and fund managers that are making commitments on their websites.

00:22:10.920 They're saying, you know, that they're going to be net zero by 2030 or 2040.

00:22:15.560 They're all making a little bit different commitments.

00:22:18.060 But, you know, what we're doing is we're saying, look, you know, some of our states, the signature industry is oil, coal, or gas.

00:22:27.360 And we're saying, look, we're market participants, too.

00:22:32.360 We don't have to use your bank or your fund manager to manage our billions of dollars in business if we think that you're actually trying to hurt the primary industry of our state.

00:22:43.860 So, take example, State Treasurer Riley Moore in West Virginia, who one year ago was able to work with his legislature to pass legislation to basically say, look, if you are a state bank working with any level of state government, university systems, et cetera, that was one of the authorities that he had was he could say, we're not going to work with you anymore if you're choosing to, you know, not work with coal, for example.

00:23:14.620 It's one thing if it's not a good business decision.

00:23:17.420 Maybe the company is having some issues and, you know, it's just not a good business model.

00:23:21.880 You get the business plan.

00:23:22.900 It's not good.

00:23:23.640 You know, bankers can do that.

00:23:25.000 That's their right.

00:23:26.180 But to say flat out we're just not going to do business with anybody that touches coal, we had a problem with that.

00:23:33.560 And Treasurer Moore had a really big problem with that.

00:23:37.280 And so, the law passed.

00:23:39.220 He put six banks on notice, including BlackRock, Citibank, JPMorgan Chase, I think Goldman Sachs was in there.

00:23:48.680 U.S. Bank ended up changing their position to say, okay, we're going to back off of our prohibition of coal.

00:23:55.100 We'll do business with the coal industry.

00:23:57.900 And they were allowed to stay in the mix of state contractors who manage the state's money.

00:24:04.380 And so, we've seen other solutions that have popped up.

00:24:07.520 Again, there's not like a one-size-fits-all.

00:24:09.800 We're not pushing out some, you know, we're not pushing out some, you know, one-size solution for every state.

00:24:17.440 Each one's a little different.

00:24:19.320 Kentucky passed a similar law.

00:24:21.000 But theirs is more on all-state contractors who work with the state to a certain financial level if they are actively discriminating against.

00:24:30.960 And that's what it is, really.

00:24:32.460 We're talking about energy discrimination.

00:24:34.380 These corporations choosing to discriminate against the fossil fuel industry in this, you know, mad rush to go to net zero, you know.

00:24:46.340 Well, we should talk about that mad rush, too, because people listening might think, well, you know, wouldn't it be good if we could move away from coal?

00:24:54.740 And, you know, I think you can make an argument on that front in some ways if you're very careful that the careful replacement, for example, of coal with liquid natural gas might be a net good, all things considered, in some situations.

00:25:07.760 And then the possible replacement of liquid natural gas, even with nuclear.

00:25:13.060 But you have to be willing to allow liquid natural gas.

00:25:16.800 And you need to be willing to allow and encourage nuclear.

00:25:20.280 And you also have to understand that liquid natural gas is also necessary for the production of ammonia, for example, which only feeds 4 billion people.

00:25:30.460 And so this notion, and everyone watching and listening should be super clear about this, this notion that net zero on the carbon front is necessary is a lie.

00:25:39.480 The idea that we're going to manage it by 2030 is preposterous beyond comprehension.

00:25:43.700 I mean, the Biden administration itself has already admitted that it will be 240 years with optimistic projections before we can approximate anything like net zero.

00:25:56.160 So all this is just a complete bloody lie.

00:25:58.560 And you might say, well, you know, it's no worse a lie than many other lies that we've been told. 0.78

00:26:02.800 And I suppose that might be true.

00:26:04.220 Except that what we're seeing in places like Germany, for example, is that as we move hypothetically towards these idiot, pathological net zero sloganeering propositions, we get more unreliable power at a much higher cost, like four to five times as high, so that industry starts to move to places like China, which, by the way, don't have the best environmental regulations.

00:26:28.320 And it's made Germany hyper-reliant on Russia.

00:26:32.260 And more to the point, even on the environmental front, is there's no evidence whatsoever that what Germany has done, while they've devastated their reliable sources of power, has improved the environment one bit. 0.76

00:26:43.900 In fact, quite the contrary.

00:26:45.920 The world used more coal last year than it ever has in the entire history of the planet. 0.95

00:26:49.980 And that's partly because countries like Germany have been forced to rely on coal as a backup for their idiot renewable projects because they're too unreliable and they've shut down their nuclear plants.

00:27:03.940 So anybody who's listening who thinks, well, you know, maybe the environmentalists are going too far, but coal should be off the table. 0.98

00:27:10.580 It's like, you simply don't know what the hell you're talking about.

00:27:13.380 It's also the case that for many people around the world, especially in developing nations, coal is a hell of a lot better and a lot less polluting than wood.

00:27:23.780 And the option isn't coal or nothing or coal or liquid natural gas or nuclear.

00:27:29.640 In many developing countries, the option is coal or wood or dung, which is, you know, one of the world's lower quality sources of energy, let's say.

00:27:40.240 So the reason I'm on this rant is because I want to make sure that everybody who's listening knows perfectly well that even by the standards of the environmentalists themselves,

00:27:51.560 this ESG movement, especially combined with net zero, is not only not going to work, it's not going to work.

00:27:58.580 There's not a chance it'll work.

00:27:59.860 It will absolutely make things worse on the environmental front, as well as dipping, propelling a lot of people into poverty, undermining the stability that we take for granted on the industrial front,

00:28:13.640 make power more unreliable and also tilt the world towards dependence on, well, dictatorial sources of power like an energy like obtained in Russia at the moment. 0.55

00:28:25.000 Well, and I'm really glad you bring up the issue of poverty, because American energy, energy around the world has done more for human flourishing than any other sector, right?

00:28:38.820 Including coal.

00:28:41.220 Including coal.

00:28:42.000 If you take away a country's ability to produce coal, natural gas, oil, you know, you can, a great case study would be to look at the country of Sri Lanka and what developed last summer, right?

00:28:55.520 Where they didn't even have gas to cook on little stoves in their homes because of the federal regulations that had been implemented that were pushed down on the people.

00:29:04.680 They couldn't pay for gas for their cars.

00:29:07.780 It's an island nation.

00:29:09.240 And it was an absolute disaster.

00:29:10.760 So we know that this is, you know, and how that translates here, there was actually a video that came out just, I think, today on Fox News with the National Home Builders Association talking about a proposition that's being voted on in the Bay Area of California where they're trying to basically say no more gas stoves, no more gas hot water heaters, no more gas, you know, anything.

00:29:37.380 And the Home Builders Association are saying, look, that's going to drive prices so high that the homeless problem is going to increase.

00:29:46.500 And so it's a really big misnomer to think that we can get to this fantasy world of net zero and then still have, you know, human flourishing and the modern technologies.

00:30:02.500 There's a great organization that I have to give credit to life powered part of the Texas public policy foundation has this great video that shows from, you know, the time that you wake up in the morning until you get to your office just in that first one and a half hours of your day.

00:30:21.000 How many petrochemical products are involved in your life, whether it's you're in your alarm clock, in your bedsheets, in your clock, in your toothbrush and, you know, all of those things.

00:30:32.300 And so this idea that we would somehow, you know, this is, I think this is where the struggle really is for these treasurers and auditors is we have companies like BlackRock, like State Street, who are actively saying and actively encouraging the companies that they invest in that they want this, you know, this net zero by a certain date.

00:30:59.320 And they want that for America.

00:31:02.480 But what they're not telling the American people is that they're taking those dollars that they're investing on behalf of all these pensioners in America and they're trying to invest and leverage them so they can do business in China.

00:31:14.420 It's a huge new retail audience.

00:31:16.900 China is the largest polluter on the earth.

00:31:19.960 They have five times the number of coal-fired power plants than America does.

00:31:25.640 We had about 225 in 2021.

00:31:27.640 They have about 1118, I believe.

00:31:32.000 Well, I think I've read that China is planning to build more coal plants than there are coal plants in the world.

00:31:38.200 Yeah.

00:31:38.440 And the other thing-

00:31:39.240 They're building one about every two weeks.

00:31:40.860 Right.

00:31:41.120 We don't want to de-anize China precisely, too, because had we not been so utterly clueless on the energy front in the West, we would have been able to supply the Chinese with a much more reliable supply of liquid natural gas. 0.94

00:31:53.980 So that's a particularly egregious sin on the Canadian front because our idiot Prime Minister, Trudeau, has done everything he possibly could to shut down the Canadian fossil fuel industry.

00:32:03.720 And all that means is that, well, as you already pointed out, that China has found it necessary so its people don't starve to produce more and more coal plants, which is exactly also what's happening in India. 0.98

00:32:14.300 And we could have remediated that to a large degree if we hadn't been so damn foolish for the last 60 years, especially on the nuclear front, but also in relationship to liquid natural gas. 0.92

00:32:23.940 And so, and then for all of you who still might be residual environmentalists listening, you better bloody well understand that if we don't build a coal plant in North America or Australia, but we build one in China, it's the same damn air. 0.80

00:32:37.040 And so the fact that we're making it impossible for any of these things to occur in the West just means that it's offloaded into another country.

00:32:44.620 And that might be fine if it was only a matter of pollution of rivers because then the Chinese could deal with that. 0.92

00:32:50.320 And, you know, that's a peripheral problem for us, even though it's not trivial.

00:32:53.600 But since they're dumping carbon dioxide into the same damn atmosphere, all this ethical posturing is doing nothing.

00:32:59.980 It's not just not doing good. 0.80

00:33:02.560 That's the thing we got to get clear here.

00:33:04.240 These policies are actually making everything worse by the criteria of the people who put the policies in place.

00:33:11.420 And that's just absolutely unacceptable.

00:33:13.800 And it's hard for people, it's hard for people to understand what ESG means. 0.97

00:33:18.140 And if you first hear about it, you know, it sounds kind of good because you think, well, those damn greedy corporations should be incentivized to serve more than their narrow self-interest.

00:33:28.540 But then when you start to look at exactly what that means, like the devil's always in the details, you see very clearly that this is just another variant of deeply socialist centralized state planning. 0.85

00:33:41.700 And here's a question for you.

00:33:43.500 You know, you would expect that someone like Larry Fink, for example, who's CEO of BlackRock, would be enough of an evil capitalist not to saw off the branch that he sits on. 0.97

00:33:53.720 It's like, what the hell is going on with these corporations who are bending over backwards to adopt these idiot ideological woke policies when they're clearly enabling like fifth columns of ideologues who are antithetical to absolutely everything they stand for? 0.97

00:34:10.360 Like, how do you understand this? 0.99

00:34:12.740 Or do you guys even bother trying to sort that sort of thing out?

00:34:15.880 Well, you know, I would say, I would guess that Larry Fink would probably say it is capitalism that's driving him to do more business in China, right?

00:34:25.240 It's this huge audience of untapped retail investors.

00:34:29.840 And the real, again, the height of hypocrisy on this issue, if we take the social issues, you know, the left is always talking about how important it is to bring up the little guy and the left out and the forgotten.

00:34:41.160 But they're not talking about, you know, the Muslim Uyghurs in China.

00:34:47.420 They're not talking about the African children in the People's Republic of the Congo that are having to mine cobalt for China, you know, in order to produce all of the electric vehicles, all of the lithium batteries for our iPads, phones.

00:35:05.320 There's a great new book out, I don't profit at all by promoting it, but I'm reading it right now, called Cobalt Red.

00:35:12.160 Siddharth Kara, I think, is the author, who went there and saw these atrocities of these, you know, African children who are making maybe, you know, a dollar or two a day to cobalt, you know, to mine this dangerous mineral that China, you know, now operates and controls about 60% of the world's cobalt supply.

00:35:33.560 China has been much smarter about owning and buying rich minerals than the United States has, and it's putting us at a huge disadvantage.

00:35:42.860 And that's the other thing that I think a lot of our men and women are concerned about is just the position that ESG investing puts us in compared to countries like China.

00:35:53.600 Right. Well, I don't have as much of a problem with BlackRock dealing with the Chinese, because I think the issue of how to include the Chinese in a broad free market economy is one that still requires a tremendous amount of debate.

00:36:07.080 You know, everybody hoped that China would sort of sort itself out on the democratic front, at least quasi-democratic front, as their population became wealthier and less prone to starvation.

00:36:18.120 And I think to a limited degree that's occurred, although the Chinese have backslid terribly with the pronouncement of Xi as like ruler till the end of time and their slide back into a real communist totalitarianism.

00:36:32.840 I mean, so it's not exactly as if I'm a China fan, especially not one of the Chinese Communist Party.

00:36:38.140 But, you know, I can see BlackRock investigating investment decisions.

00:36:43.040 I'm more curious about why in the world they bought the entire environmental apocalypse narrative, along with the DEI nonsense on the governance or on the social front.

00:36:55.020 Like, what is it about these capitalist enterprises that is tilting them in this woke policy direction?

00:37:02.640 And how can they not see how counterproductive that is, given that they're fundamentally capitalist enterprises?

00:37:08.980 I don't understand that.

00:37:11.480 I don't either, other than they believe it, right?

00:37:14.400 I mean, that's what we have to—that's the conclusion you have to come to, is they absolutely believe that it's the right way to go.

00:37:21.080 I think the other thing that I would say is the conservative movement in America has been slow to respond to a lot of this, as they have on other issues.

00:37:31.720 But, you know, we—I talk to CEOs and C-suite executives on a regular basis who, frankly, privately will tell me, thank you.

00:37:41.660 Thank you for giving us leverage now to say, we're hearing now from both sides, so we're going to stay neutral on this issue.

00:37:49.300 Which, at the end of the day, that's what these men and women want.

00:37:52.680 That's what these state treasurers and auditors want, is they want banks to be banks.

00:37:56.600 Right. Do your damn job. 1.00

00:37:58.060 They want fund managers to be fund managers. 1.00

00:37:59.580 That's right.

00:38:00.080 Their fiduciary duty calls for them to only work with those companies that are willing to maintain and protect that idea of fiduciary responsibility.

00:38:10.960 And sea level—seashore levels are not part of that fiduciary responsibility.

00:38:18.920 That's the argument that the left is trying to make, is that that is fiduciary responsibility.

00:38:22.620 And that's what the—that's what this Biden administration is trying to push out, you know, through the Department of Labor, through rule changes, through the Securities and Exchange Commission requiring ESG disclosures.

00:38:34.600 They're trying to say that it is fiduciary responsible of you to pay attention and know how much the environment's impacting.

00:38:42.620 That would be fine if they were investing their own money.

00:38:46.540 That's right.

00:38:47.140 Right?

00:38:47.380 Because maybe, you know, if you could make a case that keeping a corporate eye cast on the 20-year horizon, 30-year horizon on the environment front is going to guide your investment decisions in a manner that increases your profitability, no problem, man.

00:39:02.940 If people want to bet on that, that's just fine.

00:39:05.240 But when it starts to become a matter of compulsion and regulation, then, nope, you've definitely gone too far.

00:39:10.440 I think people like Larry Fink, for example, and all the corporate types who are pursuing this ESG nonsense out of guilt, for example, here's what I think's going on.

00:39:24.040 It isn't—the problem isn't that they're capitalists.

00:39:27.880 The problem is, is that they're evil capitalists.

00:39:30.700 And what I mean by that is that they're pursuing their ill-gotten gains in an unethical manner, fundamentally.

00:39:38.260 And, you know, the left criticizes gigantic corporate structures for having this happen all the time.

00:39:43.400 And it happens all the time.

00:39:44.960 So it's certainly the case, for example, that big pharma falls into that category.

00:39:48.800 And you can tell that because the biggest lawsuits in the history of the world have been successfully brought against big pharma.

00:39:55.160 And so there's no shortage of evil on the capitalist front. 0.98

00:39:58.220 But to attribute that to capitalism is foolish.

00:40:01.000 Now, I think what happens with the CEO types who go along with ESG and DEI movements is they're guilty because of their ill-gotten gains, which I am not attributing to capitalism, by the way. 0.64

00:40:12.540 And so then they look for an easy moral out, either that, or they look for a moral out that they think the population is gullible enough to buy.

00:40:20.720 And so they banner wave and flag wave about net zero and about the fact that we're going to adopt our corporate responsibility on the environmental front.

00:40:29.220 And they do that because it's easier than actually atoning for their greedy sins, let's say.

00:40:34.440 Or they do that because they think it's a good way of pulling the wool over the public's eyes.

00:40:38.240 Or some, you know, appallingly malevolent combination of both.

00:40:42.620 Because otherwise, I don't understand it.

00:40:44.300 Like, you have to be daft if you're a CEO not to notice that the DEI squad, diversity, equity, and inclusivity, and the ESG squad put forward an ideology that is absolutely antithetical to the principles upon which your company are based. 0.93

00:41:06.160 And so then you say, well, why the hell would you do that? 0.98

00:41:08.680 And one excuse is ignorance. 0.97

00:41:10.040 You just don't know better.

00:41:11.420 But this unatoned for guilt is another good explanation.

00:41:15.980 And the lefties like Russell Brand and Joe Rogan, to some degree, have been pretty good at pointing this out.

00:41:21.540 Said, yeah, well, you guys have bent the system in your favor for a long time.

00:41:25.560 And now you're guilty about it. 1.00

00:41:27.260 And so you're going to comply in this daft manner with these idiot ideologies to everyone's discredit, including yourself. 1.00

00:41:33.920 And that's not going to atone for your sins. 1.00

00:41:36.460 And it's going to make everything a hell of a lot worse.

00:41:39.240 Yeah.

00:41:39.560 And I would say, too, that a lot of the students graduating from universities today, unfortunately, are, you know, pretty left of center.

00:41:49.080 And so the really loud ones go to work for these big publicly traded companies.

00:41:53.540 And that's how this whole idea of stakeholder capitalism comes in.

00:41:57.460 And suddenly your employee is a stakeholder, even if they're not a shareholder, that they have some say.

00:42:03.060 And I think that that's part of why they get caught up in these decisions as well, is they're listening to this younger generation who may have this, you know, idealistic thought of change.

00:42:14.680 And it may be a really small, very loud minority.

00:42:17.860 It is definitely that.

00:42:19.340 Screaming that.

00:42:20.140 Yeah, well, I've seen that.

00:42:20.880 But they're listening.

00:42:21.700 I've seen that in my own dealings with corporations.

00:42:24.100 So, for example, in Canada, I published with Penguin Random House.

00:42:28.160 And there was a bit of a rebellion among the younger people at Penguin Random House when they decided to publish my next popular book, right?

00:42:36.840 I have a two-volume series.

00:42:38.520 Now, the first book, which was 12 Rules for Life, was one of the most profitable books that Penguin Random House in Canada ever published by a huge margin.

00:42:48.420 And so, I was responsible for a substantial fraction of PRH's revenue over the last six years.

00:42:57.020 And yet, when my second book was announced, before anyone had read it, there was a rebellion among the younger people. 0.99

00:43:04.600 And then Penguin Random House had a town hall where a number of them cried about, and I mean literally cried about, what a terrible monster I was, despite the fact they hadn't read the damn book.

00:43:13.540 And instead of firing all those people, which is exactly 100% what should have instantly happened, since they lined themselves up to identify themselves as people who should be fired because they wanted to implement censorship on a book they hadn't read in a publishing house, 0.61

00:43:31.320 all that happened was that PRH hand-waved about how upset their new people were and tried to, what would you say, listen compassionately to their concerns and move forward.

00:43:42.620 And, you know, they didn't end up cancelling my book, which, you know, I don't regard precisely as a favour, but the same thing happened also at PRH in New York.

00:43:56.480 And so, but again, I see no excuse for it.

00:44:00.020 It's like, why the hell would you go along with the radicals?

00:44:03.060 You're so uncertain about your own moral principles, even as a publisher, that you won't fire people within your organisation who are outright calling for censorship?

00:44:11.060 Ownership?

00:44:12.260 Yeah.

00:44:13.060 Stunning.

00:44:13.520 Well, and I would just add, too, one of the things that we've realised over the year, the last year and a half, as we've pushed back, is, you know, the three companies that we would like to mention a lot, you know, BlackRock, State Street, Vanguard.

00:44:26.940 If you look at the ownership that they have in the top 500 publicly traded companies in America, together, they own anywhere from 18 to 20% on average of every one of those publicly traded companies.

00:44:41.740 And so, they leverage this tremendous amount of authority.

00:44:44.420 We have, you know, when we have publicly traded companies, we have this whole thing that's getting ready to start the proxy, the shareholder voting season is this spring, right?

00:44:55.300 And that's what we've seen them do, is to start to direct behaviour of companies that they're going to invest in.

00:45:01.740 If I'm BlackRock and I'm going to invest in your company, you're going to make sure that you don't invest in coal, that you don't invest in dirty agriculture, you don't invest in, you know, and they've got this checklist that, all in the name of ESG, and so it's very, it's coercion, right?

00:45:21.940 It's preventing farmers and small businesses, you know.

00:45:26.340 From growing food.

00:45:27.520 We know, that's right, right.

00:45:30.120 I mean, there's this whole, you know, cattle methane mitigation, you know, where, you know, it's a big part of, you know, BlackRock had some involvement with the state of Nebraska, for example, where they were, you know, there was question about which company they were going to invest in because big cattle ranchers, you know, cows poop and, you know, they produce methane.

00:45:51.720 But, you know, that's part of this movement, is to kind of eliminate that, eliminate that industry.

00:45:58.300 Yeah, yeah, well, that industry that feeds people, yes, yes, and feeds poor people cheaply.

00:46:03.940 Okay, so let's talk about exactly how this came about, because people aren't going to understand this either.

00:46:08.920 Okay, so now you just said BlackRock, State Street, Vanguard own between 15% and 25% of the shares in the top 500 companies.

00:46:18.600 Okay, so now, how the hell did they manage to accumulate all that capital?

00:46:23.700 So, why don't we, why don't you just walk through that backstory so that people understand what's happened over the last 20 years with regards to these huge corporations?

00:46:32.780 I mean, I think the very simple answer is just that they've, over time, they've accumulated, you know, huge amounts of wealth and invested it back in these publicly traded companies.

00:46:41.000 How did they accumulate it?

00:46:42.240 So, what are people doing with their money that turns it over to BlackRock?

00:46:50.040 Well, they're investing in BlackRock.

00:46:52.080 Right.

00:46:52.320 And so, walk us through what BlackRock is and why that's positioned them so powerfully, because people aren't going to understand that.

00:47:01.080 Yeah, so, BlackRock manages everybody's 401k retirement fund.

00:47:05.820 You know, almost every registered advisor uses BlackRock, uses iShares, and they are basically accumulating all of this wealth from private individuals who are, you know, unknowingly investing, you know, money with their, you know,

00:47:22.020 retail advisor at their local, you know, office on Main Street USA, and then they're taking those dollars and investing them in ways that they want to to drive this agenda.

00:47:33.560 So, that's actually why, that's actually why we started our educational campaign on December 1st.

00:47:40.840 We started a campaign called Our Money, Our Values, because what we realized was there was this huge, you know, aside from ESG being a little wonky and hard to explain to the average American, we needed to make sure that they understood how it affected their bottom line and their retirement.

00:47:56.660 So, what's happening is people have their pension savings, and there's reason to invest that in the stock market, let's say, to buy companies.

00:48:07.300 Now, when you invest in the stock market and you become a shareholder, you also have voting rights.

00:48:13.740 Now, what's happened is that companies like BlackRock, as they've aggregated individual investor capital, have accrued the voting rights to themselves.

00:48:24.020 Right, and so, they can wield disproportionate influence, pretending to be the voice of the individual investors, but in reality, pushing forward this ESG agenda that we've been describing,

00:48:37.700 often in a manner that runs contrary to the fiduciary interest of their investors.

00:48:42.620 And that means all of you who are watching and listening who have pension funds.

00:48:45.900 And so, and that's put a tremendous amount of power, like an almost unlimited amount of financial power, in the hands of very few actors.

00:48:54.000 And you laid out BlackRock, Vanguard, and State Street.

00:48:56.680 And so, that's what we're talking about.

00:48:58.420 And people need to always know why this is relevant to them.

00:49:02.320 It's relevant to them because this is your pension money.

00:49:05.880 But not only that, this is your voting right that is being secretly, in some real sense, and in an underhanded manner.

00:49:14.860 If you're a shareholder.

00:49:16.320 Yeah.

00:49:17.040 If you're a shareholder, yes.

00:49:19.660 Yeah, and most people aren't voting their, they're not voting their shares.

00:49:22.660 They're not voting their proxy.

00:49:23.660 And most states weren't, frankly.

00:49:25.440 They were depending on companies like ISS and Glass-Lewis, who are, you know, also owned, percentage owned by BlackRock, Vanguard, and State Street,

00:49:36.300 to basically vote those shares for this on behalf of the state pensions.

00:49:40.860 And that's been part of the rub and part of the pushback from some of our states now is, you know,

00:49:46.940 either bringing just blatant transparency to how those shares are being voted,

00:49:51.320 what the issue is, and how the state pension, you know, representative voted on those shares,

00:49:57.280 or asking and pushing to change contracts with companies like BlackRock so that they can't vote the state shares anymore

00:50:04.480 and that they have personnel in these state offices that can do that.

00:50:08.000 The problem that we have are some state treasurer's office, you know, employ thousands and thousands of state employees,

00:50:14.540 you know, 8,000 employees in one case, and then, you know, there might be eight employees in a smaller state.

00:50:22.060 And so it's not a one-size-fits-all.

00:50:24.840 It's a big issue.

00:50:26.140 This probably would have worked originally, even if BlackRock would have been voting on behalf of the investors,

00:50:31.520 as long as what BlackRock was doing was pursuing their local fiduciary interest, right?

00:50:38.480 Because if your goal as a pension investor is to make money and your fund manager's goal is to make money,

00:50:45.700 well, then your interests are aligned.

00:50:47.440 But if your goal is to make money so that you're doing well for your retirement

00:50:51.140 and your manager's goal now is to implement ESG requirements,

00:50:55.360 then there's an instant conflict of interest there, and that's exactly what's emerged,

00:50:59.760 especially in the last 10 years.

00:51:01.660 It's hard to alert people to the danger of this, but it's a signal danger.

00:51:05.640 When I started to become aware of ESGs, I thought, well, I'm already preoccupied with diversity,

00:51:11.220 inclusivity, and equity, because that's an absolute catastrophe, especially on the equity front.

00:51:16.080 It's devastated the universities, but I think ESG is, if anything, worse.

00:51:21.260 It's like DEI on steroids with much larger pools of capital.

00:51:25.980 And so...

00:51:26.680 Well, they've learned that they can weaponize money, you know,

00:51:29.800 and we saw that first in your country, you know, with the trucker protests.

00:51:34.140 That's where our men and women first really kind of became aware that,

00:51:39.160 hey, here's a federal government that is literally shutting down individual bank accounts

00:51:46.040 so that they can't fund protesters that they don't agree with.

00:51:51.020 I mean, it really, it was absolutely shocking to see that happen.

00:51:56.100 And then we've seen that here now in the United States,

00:51:59.160 where there are certain banks who are de-platforming, de-banking companies

00:52:03.720 if they don't like what you're selling.

00:52:06.560 You know, if you're a small gun owner, gun shop owner,

00:52:11.720 and there was a case of a small gun shop owner in Florida

00:52:15.220 that had been in business for 20-some years,

00:52:17.660 and they got shut down by their primary bank

00:52:20.740 because they didn't want to be in the gun business anymore.

00:52:23.000 Not because of anything that owner did,

00:52:25.720 not because they committed a crime.

00:52:27.240 They didn't do any of that.

00:52:28.280 And this guy was a veteran. 0.96

00:52:30.440 And so, you know, it's absolutely ridiculous.

00:52:33.440 You know, former U.S. Ambassador for Religious Freedom, Sam Brownback, 0.61

00:52:38.080 started an organization, a non-for-profit organization for religious freedom.

00:52:42.180 The organization was told that they couldn't have a bank at the bank that they wanted to bank at

00:52:47.140 because they didn't like what they were doing.

00:52:50.500 So this idea of weaponizing capital, it's very dangerous.

00:52:55.500 And it's probably the largest issue that our country is going to face over the next couple of years

00:53:00.880 because now that we've seen how one side can do it,

00:53:04.540 you know, it's going to be really easy for federal bureaucracies,

00:53:08.540 for Congress, depending on who's in control,

00:53:10.740 to start leveraging, you know, public capital to force a political amendment.

00:53:17.760 Yeah, well, and that'll be spent on by the development of anything approximating a centralized digital currency.

00:53:23.680 So, yeah, you know, Canadians have absolutely no idea 0.95

00:53:26.720 what the Trudeau government lockdown of bank accounts did to Canada's international reputation

00:53:32.740 or what sort of precedent it served.

00:53:35.540 You know, I regard that as an act of outright treachery.

00:53:38.620 I couldn't believe that our government could do something that utterly appalling.

00:53:42.960 And I also still can't believe that about 50% of Canadians feel that it was justified.

00:53:47.520 They have no idea what that means.

00:53:49.260 They have no idea that we now have a precedent in Canada

00:53:52.380 such that if you have a political opinion that's unpopular,

00:53:56.520 no, worse, if you support someone indirectly who has a political opinion

00:54:02.640 that runs contrary to that of the government,

00:54:04.900 that you can now lose access to the entire financial system.

00:54:09.480 You know, and people think, well, if you didn't do anything wrong,

00:54:12.120 you wouldn't have anything to worry about.

00:54:13.680 And the right rejoinder to that is you've never done anything wrong in your whole life, eh?

00:54:19.120 And you think that the government is so bloody virtuous

00:54:22.420 that they're only going to punish people who, you know, are the real wrongdoers. 0.97

00:54:25.680 You're that naive.

00:54:26.740 And Canadians have no idea, like I said, they have no idea whatsoever 1.00

00:54:30.740 how shocking it was across the world that our government actually dared

00:54:35.640 to suspend the financial rights of people who were contributing to the trucker convoy

00:54:42.880 with no trial, right?

00:54:45.380 By government fiat, top down, coercing the banks to do so.

00:54:49.840 One of the banks actually apologized, which was quite the remarkable occurrence.

00:54:53.880 Yeah, yeah, I think it was the Bank of Nova Scotia apologized for doing it.

00:54:57.560 But yeah, thanks, guys.

00:54:59.840 You shouldn't have done it to begin with.

00:55:01.920 But yeah.

00:55:02.940 Well, I think that action, you know, and that awareness to our men and women

00:55:09.000 that are in these offices, you know, we became very acutely aware and hypersensitive.

00:55:14.840 And so we started reading, there was a proposal

00:55:18.100 that the United States Treasury Department put out.

00:55:20.380 It didn't even have a chance to become an official bill in Congress.

00:55:24.560 But the idea was that we're going to start monitoring every American's bank accounts,

00:55:30.280 whether it's a bank account, credit union, for $600 transactions, inflow or outflow, right?

00:55:36.320 So if you take a deposit of $600 or more, boom, that bank is required to report that to the IRS.

00:55:42.100 If you get, if you write a check for a refrigerator, that's more than $600.

00:55:46.980 Or a gas stove.

00:55:49.120 Or a gas stove, yes.

00:55:51.740 And so we, a lot of our men and women really went to the front line.

00:55:57.340 Nebraska Treasurer John Morante really led the charge on that and said,

00:56:01.340 look, you know, we cannot allow that to go unnoticed.

00:56:05.260 You know, we've got to raise awareness.

00:56:06.620 So we did a very strategic move with the bankers, the American Bankers Association

00:56:12.480 and the credit unions of America to get the word out to every blogger, every newspaper,

00:56:18.600 every radio show, every TV in the states that we were in to raise awareness.

00:56:24.140 And really, the wonderful thing about that experience, Jordan, was that the average American,

00:56:30.400 whether they were Democrat or Republican,

00:56:32.140 they all hated the idea of having the IRS monitoring every, every transaction in their

00:56:37.660 bank account of $600 or more.

00:56:39.240 We got phone calls from people that said, I, you know, I don't want the government or the IRS to

00:56:44.160 know how much medicinal marijuana I buy on a monthly basis.

00:56:48.820 We had Republicans call, calling and saying, I don't want the government to know how much

00:56:52.340 ammunition I buy on a regular basis.

00:56:55.060 And, you know, it was kind of great.

00:56:56.140 I don't want the government to know what I buy, period.

00:56:58.880 So I keep your guard.

00:56:59.680 That's right.

00:57:00.120 It's now out of my business.

00:57:02.140 You know, and the fact that we're going to be able to track this digitally is people have no

00:57:06.640 idea what that means.

00:57:07.820 It will mean that the centralized controllers will start to decide what it is that you need

00:57:13.520 and what you don't need.

00:57:14.620 And their answer will be, well, because the planet is going to come to an end in 20 years,

00:57:19.140 you really don't need much at all.

00:57:20.960 You know, you read, I suppose, and know a little bit about these 15-minute cities.

00:57:26.140 And the right-wing conspiratorial trolls have got their panties in a knot about 15-minute 0.99

00:57:32.220 cities.

00:57:32.740 And the lefties, of course, declaim that that's nothing but a conspiracy theory.

00:57:36.920 But if you go to the C40 website, and C40 is the website that's put forward by the consortium

00:57:43.620 of municipalities that are adopting the 15-minute city vision.

00:57:47.020 They state very, very straightforwardly that their goals are the radical minimization of 0.99

00:57:54.020 private car ownership by 2035, gas or electric, it doesn't matter because you goddamn peasants 1.00

00:57:59.800 don't need vehicles, that people should be limited to one flight every three years on 0.99

00:58:04.900 the vacation front because you damn peasants really don't need to go anywhere, and that 0.98

00:58:09.240 caloric restriction is also on the carts. 0.99

00:58:11.520 So, first of all, no meat for you, that's for sure, but you're probably eating more than

00:58:16.200 you should anyways, because after all, the planet's at stake.

00:58:19.200 And so, for everyone who's listening and watching, if you think that having the government

00:58:23.640 monitor everything that you purchase is going to turn out well for you, you better bloody 0.68

00:58:29.700 well wake up.

00:58:30.520 And if you don't think the digital currency put forward by the government is going to

00:58:33.920 facilitate that, you're painfully asleep.

00:58:38.580 So, and what's going to be done about that?

00:58:40.360 Like, what do you guys think on the digital currency front?

00:58:43.100 Because it's pretty damn obvious that essentially we already have a digital currency.

00:58:49.060 That's what a credit card is.

00:58:50.980 And at least what's happening with our credit card data is that mostly it's being used by

00:58:56.380 greedy corporations to sell us stuff that we hypothetically want.

00:59:00.140 And there's a fair bit of manipulation in that, but at least, you know, at least the ethos

00:59:05.220 there is to increase consumer consumption.

00:59:08.820 And you might not think that's the best possible use of data, but it's not the worst.

00:59:14.560 Now, so the digital currency is already in place and the data that it generates is basically

00:59:21.100 controlled by corporate interests.

00:59:22.780 If we put forward a digital currency that's centralized, the fundamental recipient of the

00:59:27.700 data is going to be the government.

00:59:29.120 And God only knows what they're going to do with that data.

00:59:31.420 But this is definitely coming.

00:59:33.480 So what do you, what is your organization, what are you guys suggesting on the digital

00:59:37.920 currency front?

00:59:40.280 Well, we don't have an answer yet.

00:59:43.060 That's an issue that we're tackling later this year and have not spent a whole lot of

00:59:48.200 time on.

00:59:48.620 So I can't really speak to it.

00:59:49.920 I can tell you that, that, you know, we are watching, there is a, I forget the name of

00:59:56.080 it.

00:59:56.200 There's a European agency that, that makes recommendations on credit card coding for

01:00:02.780 transactions.

01:00:03.420 And one of the things that we've watched recently that a lot, that has alarmed a lot of our treasurers

01:00:08.920 is that, you know, to code when someone makes a purchase that's related to a gun or ammunition.

01:00:17.380 And so we've seen, we've seen that that's a model, right, for potentially being able to

01:00:23.840 track someone's expenditures in that area.

01:00:27.980 Now we work closely with some of the largest credit card companies in the world to help make

01:00:32.480 sure that that, that kind of tracking doesn't happen.

01:00:35.240 Um, and we have great relationships with them and open lines of communication where we can

01:00:40.060 be honest with one another when, you know, something is happening like that.

01:00:44.380 Uh, but, uh, we're, we're not at that place yet where we've got a whole lot to say about

01:00:48.840 the digital currency.

01:00:49.940 Yeah.

01:00:50.500 Yeah.

01:00:50.720 Well, it's a real conundrum because, well, because the digital currencies are definitely

01:00:55.340 coming, you know, and this is one of the things that makes me interested in Bitcoin

01:00:59.720 because Bitcoin is a digital currency and it literally is decentralized.

01:01:04.020 That's actually true.

01:01:06.080 And so, you know, if I had to choose between Bitcoin as a digital currency or any state issued

01:01:11.660 digital currency, I'd take Bitcoin hands down instantly because at least it's distributed

01:01:16.640 and that takes control over currency and it's monitoring out of the hands of, you know,

01:01:23.240 do-gooder state or corporate institutions for that matter.

01:01:26.580 Because I think at a certain level of gigantism, you know, corporations are just as, just as,

01:01:33.160 it's reasonable to distrust them just as much as you distrust overreaching government.

01:01:37.760 And so, you know, that's one place where I think the, the genuine left has it right,

01:01:43.540 which is that once corporations reach the point where they can start to engage in regulatory

01:01:48.440 capture, which is essentially what BlackRock is doing nonstop, they pose a threat to the

01:01:53.740 integrity of society itself.

01:01:56.020 Yeah.

01:01:56.620 My assumption is, is that we'll have, you know, 50 states, we'll have 50 different answers

01:02:01.760 on how states should handle that and handle digital currency.

01:02:05.680 That's kind of where we're, what we're seeing, you know, where there's already some exploratory

01:02:09.980 committees, you know, that have been formed by state legislatures.

01:02:13.320 There's like, I think where there's one or two states that are already receiving digital

01:02:18.460 payments for different state related payments that people make to the state government.

01:02:24.440 And I think there's been some issues with some of that.

01:02:26.560 So I think there's a lot, government always falls, you know, is always a few steps behind

01:02:31.500 the private sector in terms of advancing.

01:02:33.960 So we're, we're, we're trying to catch up and get, get more up to date on that.

01:02:37.960 Yeah.

01:02:38.100 Well, it's hard to stay, you know, the technological transformations.

01:02:41.300 And so, so what are your, what are your, what are the ambitions and goals of your organization

01:02:45.900 in the next six months to a year and maybe a little bit beyond that?

01:02:51.340 Yeah.

01:02:51.860 I think we continue to, to make sure that, that every American, you know, we, the best

01:02:57.340 anecdote to wall street is main street in America.

01:03:00.780 You know, we, we help Americans understand that, you know, this, this absolute war on American

01:03:07.540 energy has caused higher gas and diesel prices, you know, combined with the logistics issues

01:03:13.780 that we had during the COVID pandemic, you know, uh, that is why we're experiencing inflation.

01:03:20.160 That's why your eggs cost so much more.

01:03:21.900 That's why gas at the pump costs much more.

01:03:23.760 And your bottom line is that your paycheck isn't going near as far as it used to be two

01:03:28.360 years ago.

01:03:28.920 Um, you know, we're going to continue to, uh, our states, I think are still, are going

01:03:34.920 to continue to watch companies like BlackRock, you know, in the last year, uh, our eight of

01:03:40.060 our states divested almost 5 billion, a little over $5 billion from BlackRock, um, in a move

01:03:46.960 to, to, you know, try to find other fund managers or banks that were willing to take their fiduciary

01:03:51.400 responsibility seriously.

01:03:52.620 I think you'll see more of that.

01:03:54.480 I think you'll see, you know, last year, five states passed legislation, uh, to start to

01:03:59.660 move, uh, federal state funds away from, from the CSG movement, uh, Kentucky, West Virginia,

01:04:07.060 Tennessee, Oklahoma, Texas.

01:04:08.520 I think you're going to see more of that this year.

01:04:12.140 Um, you know, we're, we're also educating, you know, as we talked about China a little

01:04:16.500 bit, you know, we're, we're helping Americans to make sure they understand by this website

01:04:22.460 that we've created our money, our values.com to go and understand the impact that it puts

01:04:27.780 America in the position that it puts American compared to China, when we become so interdependent

01:04:33.920 on them or dependent on them, uh, and other countries for our sources of energy, uh, and,

01:04:40.060 and where we've got plenty here that we could be, uh, you know, energy independent.

01:04:45.320 Yes.

01:04:45.520 And doing it, and doing it more cleanly by, by any measure.

01:04:49.000 Uh, right.

01:04:50.280 Absolutely.

01:04:51.220 You know, the free market is, is, is the, the fix for not only the financials, but some

01:04:56.420 of the cleanest markets in the world are run by free market governments.

01:05:00.360 And so, uh, you know, it's, uh, um, I think you're going to, you're going to see more creative

01:05:05.940 solutions.

01:05:06.780 I think you're going to see more solutions on, uh, on bank, you know, pushing back against

01:05:11.400 banks that want to drive a political agenda with who they do business.

01:05:15.060 Have you guys, now you talked about Vanguard pulling back a little bit on the ESG front

01:05:19.460 last couple of weeks.

01:05:20.520 And I noticed that as well.

01:05:21.620 Have you noticed any impact of what your organization or the broader pushback?

01:05:26.520 I know Florida has been instrumental on, on this front as well.

01:05:30.000 Have you seen any change in the pushing forward of the ESG agenda as a consequence of your concerted

01:05:36.280 actions?

01:05:37.620 I think so.

01:05:38.780 You know, I think BlackRock, you know, was worth $10 trillion this time last year.

01:05:43.020 Today, they're worth $8 trillion.

01:05:45.320 Uh, they had to lay off 3% of their workforce.

01:05:47.980 Um, they've spent more money on lobbying than they ever have in the history of the company.

01:05:52.540 They've got a multimillion dollar ad campaign on Fox News reminding Americans, you know, in

01:05:57.300 a warm, fuzzy way, how, how invested they are in their future.

01:06:01.240 Um, but, but it, it's all a sham, right?

01:06:04.360 It's all a smoke and mirrors to show that, you know, they are, are really trying to save face,

01:06:11.000 um, as the truth is being exposed about, again, how they're weaponizing all these other people's

01:06:17.700 money to advance their political agenda.

01:06:19.620 It's like this new dark shadow grant government, you know, that's operating, uh, that isn't

01:06:25.060 part of our democratic system.

01:06:26.220 Let's, I mean, that's face it.

01:06:28.340 You know, these guys know they can't get it passed in the courts in America anymore.

01:06:31.560 They know they can't get it passed in Congress.

01:06:33.280 So this is the way they're going to try to get new policy advanced.

01:06:38.440 Um, and we're just not going to sit by and let them do it. 0.99

01:06:40.820 And all, all to atone falsely for their unearned privilege, pretty bloody pathetic. 0.99

01:06:47.220 Yeah. 1.00

01:06:48.020 Yeah.

01:06:48.700 So, so have you, have you guys looked into what Vivek Ramaswamy has been doing on the

01:06:53.240 strive front?

01:06:55.660 Absolutely.

01:06:56.480 Uh, you know, Vivek has actually been, uh, a speaker at our meeting a couple of times,

01:07:01.120 uh, in the last year, uh, he has a friend and we've talked, had numerous conversations.

01:07:06.860 Um, and, and Vivek is, is the beauty of the free market, right?

01:07:10.580 Where the free market can correct itself when things go bad.

01:07:14.180 Uh, he launched this company called strive asset management, um, a year ago.

01:07:18.880 You know, he's got a fund that is focused on fossil fuels called the ticker letters or

01:07:23.640 drill DRL.

01:07:25.120 Um, he's got a fund that will not do any business with China.

01:07:28.560 Um, and so, you know, he's very much taking, uh, you know, an opposite approach to what

01:07:34.680 BlackRock is doing.

01:07:35.740 And I know that he's getting some traction.

01:07:37.740 Some of our, I believe some of our states are beginning to work with, with his company.

01:07:41.880 Great.

01:07:42.060 Well, it's going to be very interesting watching him operate on the presidential campaign

01:07:46.260 front because he's a real wild card.

01:07:48.700 You know, that this next presidential election is going to be something to watch, assuming we

01:07:52.820 last that long, given the Russia-Ukraine situation.

01:07:55.740 But it's very interesting to see someone like Vivek step into the ring, given what he's

01:08:00.400 done on the capital front already to try to push back, not to push back against BlackRock

01:08:06.100 exactly, but to provide a market-based alternative that's, that's grounded in fiduciary responsibility.

01:08:13.080 Very interesting move on his part.

01:08:14.800 I thought extremely daring.

01:08:16.120 And so, um, it's interesting to know that he's on your, well, on, on the radar of your,

01:08:20.960 of your, uh, of your organization.

01:08:23.460 What do you think?

01:08:24.320 And there's other, sorry, please go ahead.

01:08:26.080 I was just going to say there, there, there are other companies aside from Strive, like,

01:08:29.620 uh, second vote asset managers.

01:08:31.300 There's other companies out there that are springing up that are becoming, um, a legitimate

01:08:36.900 alternative to some of these big fund managers, um, which is great to see.

01:08:41.740 I'll let you go ahead.

01:08:43.000 Yeah. 0.98

01:08:43.240 Well, I mean, uh, from the Canadian perspective, it's always heartening to see you bloody Americans 1.00

01:08:47.960 try sorting these things out like you do. 0.54

01:08:50.260 I mean, one of the things that's so lovely to watch in the U S in general is your, your

01:08:55.440 culture is so diverse and there's so many different pockets of power with that distribution

01:08:59.840 of power that checks and balances that no matter what insane thing is going on in part

01:09:04.380 of your country, there's some sane things going on somewhere.

01:09:07.660 And that seems to be a constant source of renewal on the American front.

01:09:11.840 And it is especially heartening for a Canadian to see that because we're so bloody captured in

01:09:16.780 Canada, that it's just beyond comprehension.

01:09:19.600 I think that's why Vivek's message is really getting traction.

01:09:23.400 And this isn't an endorsement for Vivek.

01:09:25.620 I love him.

01:09:26.440 He's a great guy, but I, uh, but I will say that when you speak about American exceptionalism

01:09:31.840 and that America is a place that anybody can come to and that we all have the same, uh,

01:09:37.760 opportunity to build something great, to work hard, um, you know, to come from nothing,

01:09:43.740 to be the, the son of, of immigrants, uh, to come over and, and build a business or build

01:09:49.600 a company.

01:09:50.360 Uh, that's his story.

01:09:52.060 Um, and, and I'd say that that's why, uh, we fight so hard is that we want it.

01:09:57.440 We want that America that has, it guarantees, you know, not equity for all, uh, but opportunity

01:10:04.420 for all that want it, that want to work hard and, and work to, to provide for their families

01:10:10.060 and do what's right.

01:10:11.320 Yeah.

01:10:11.460 Well, equity for all is opportunity for none.

01:10:14.340 That's how you make everyone equitable is you just reduce them to zero.

01:10:17.920 And, you know, the radical left governments of the 20th century were damn good at that,

01:10:21.860 except they didn't reduce themselves to zero.

01:10:24.400 That's not even true because so often they ended up victims, like often murdered victims 1.00

01:10:29.860 of their own idiot ideology. 1.00

01:10:31.580 So they all ended up equal in the ground. 1.00

01:10:35.000 And, you know, that's the, that's the story of a hundred million lives in the 20th century.

01:10:39.100 So, all right.

01:10:40.880 Well, um, it's very interesting having you lay all this out.

01:10:44.740 If people are interested in learning more about this and also in, in what do they need

01:10:49.740 to do and to contribute, what, what, what can people do who are watching and listening,

01:10:53.480 um, that's practical, that would be helpful on the, on the fiduciary responsibility front?

01:11:00.680 Great question.

01:11:01.620 Well, um, they can go to our money, our values.com.

01:11:04.780 Um, uh, one, they can share, there's a, there's about a four and a half minute educational

01:11:09.220 primer video on that, that website that explains in plain English, what ESG investing is and

01:11:15.000 how harmful it can be.

01:11:17.240 Um, there's also a six, a 60 second version of that, that we're trying to get out in digital

01:11:22.060 media.

01:11:22.460 Uh, since December 1st, we've reached 32 million Americans, um, and, and had, you know, several

01:11:28.420 million views on our video.

01:11:30.060 And that's where we're trying to, to get support, financial support to go towards that so that

01:11:34.700 we can continue to educate all Americans on the danger of this.

01:11:38.780 Um, we have some resources that they can download so they can take questions into their registered

01:11:43.200 advisors on their, on, you know, Main Street USA.

01:11:45.720 Um, we are asking, uh, we're asking small business owners and farmers to share their

01:11:51.600 stories with us on that website on how ESG is, is impacting their lives or hurting their

01:11:56.940 business.

01:11:57.860 Um, and so there is a, there's a opportunity to donate on that.

01:12:02.540 Um, they can follow us on Twitter at SFOF underscore states.

01:12:07.220 Um, and, uh, they can go to our website.

01:12:10.100 Our, our primary website is SFOF.com.

01:12:12.540 Um, they can go and see if their state treasurer is one of our members.

01:12:15.840 And if they're not, they can call them and ask them why.

01:12:18.800 Okay.

01:12:19.240 Excellent.

01:12:19.760 Well, we'll put all those URLs and contact points in the description for this video.

01:12:23.780 And so, all right, well, that's a good overview for everybody who's watching and listening.

01:12:28.140 And, you know, if you want to, um, ensure your financial stability on the pension front,

01:12:34.600 and if you want to stay abreast of the relevant events, both corporate and government that

01:12:39.940 are, that are important, um, in the, in the present day and age, then you need to know a

01:12:45.120 fair bit about ESGs because that's not a trivial issue here.

01:12:48.240 As, as we pointed out here, BlackRock and, and State Street and Vanguard own something

01:12:54.400 approximating 20% of the biggest 500 companies in the U.S.

01:12:57.760 And that gives them tremendous leverage.

01:12:59.700 It's very necessary for people to be aware of this and to understand that these organizations,

01:13:04.500 which are duty bound to operate in their financial interest, are no longer doing that.

01:13:10.360 And that's explicit.

01:13:11.740 It's an explicit part of the manner in which they govern themselves.

01:13:15.120 And, you know, maybe they should be doing a bit of a check on the governance front, you

01:13:18.480 might say.

01:13:19.240 And of all the organizations that I've seen that are doing what they can to, uh, bring

01:13:25.220 people's attention to this problem and to do something about it, your organization is

01:13:29.320 certainly in the top one or two.

01:13:31.280 And so, um, you know, that's been very interesting to me to watch that unfold.

01:13:34.760 And I'd certainly like to wish you well in your, in your continuing endeavors, we can

01:13:39.000 stay in touch and I'll do what I can to help bring public attention to what you're doing.

01:13:44.600 All right.

01:13:44.900 So for everyone watching and listening, we're going to switch over to the Daily Wire Plus

01:13:48.900 platform for half an hour.

01:13:50.200 That's pretty much standard practice with regards to my videos.

01:13:54.140 Um, uh, we're going to continue our conversation a little bit more on the personal front, because

01:13:58.920 I'm curious about the development of your career and, and your political and philosophical

01:14:03.320 interests.

01:14:04.040 And so we'll delve into that in more detail, more autobiographical detail on the Daily Wire

01:14:09.140 Plus platform.

01:14:10.060 Thank you all for watching and listening.

01:14:12.640 Please spread this around as much as you are inclined to.

01:14:15.680 Um, and, uh, well, thank you to the film crew here in Calgary, Alberta.

01:14:21.620 That's a pretty good place to be doing that, right?

01:14:23.960 Home of the, of the fossil fuel industry in Canada, that's for sure, which has been devastated 0.99

01:14:29.640 by our idiot prime minister and who's planning to do a lot worse in the future. 0.93

01:14:34.180 And so, uh, it's a good place to be doing this interview and, and, uh, thanks again for, 0.98

01:14:39.300 for your time and for your, for your, uh, for the information you've provided to everyone.

01:14:43.940 And we'll definitely stay in touch in the future.

01:14:47.020 I'd like that.

01:14:47.980 Thank you so much, Dr. Peterson, for having me today.

01:14:50.140 You bet.

01:14:50.660 You bet.

01:14:51.120 Hello, everyone.

01:14:53.140 I would encourage you to continue listening to my conversation with my guest on dailywireplus.com.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - March 30, 2023

344. State Treasurers Reject Blackrock. You Should Too ｜ Derek Kreifels

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