The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast


347. Parental Trauma in a World of Gender Insanity ｜ Miriam Grossman MD


Summary

Miriam Grossman is a physician, author, and public speaker. She has been vocal for many years about the capture of her profession, psychiatry, by ideologues leading to dangerous and experimental treatments on children and betrayal of parents. In this episode, Dr. Grossman shares her story of how she first became concerned about the issues she was writing about in the early 2000s, and how she began to write and speak about them. She is also the author of four books, and her work has been translated into 11 languages. After graduating with honors from Bryn Mawr College, she completed an internship in pediatrics at Beth Israel Hospital in New York, and a residency in psychiatry through Cornell Medical College, followed by a fellowship in child and adolescent psychiatry. She wrote, You're Teaching My Child What? back in 2009, and she has a new book coming out later this year, Lost in Transnation, A Child Psychiatrist's Guide Out of the Madness. It's already available for pre-order, and you can check that out in the video description via URL link there. Let s start watching Dr. Jordan B. Peterson on Depression and Anxiety now, and start taking the first step towards the brighter future you deserve. Let s take a moment to reach out to those listening who may be struggling. With decades of experience helping patients and offer a unique understanding of why you might be feeling this way. in his new series. Dr. Peterson has created a roadmap towards healing, and offers a roadmap toward finding your way forward. If you're suffering, please know you are not alone, and there's hope to feel better. and there s a path to feeling better. And there s more than enough to help you find your way to a brighter future that you deserve to feel your brighter future, you deserve a brighter, brighter future. -Let s make it so you can be a better version of who you are worth it! - The Daily Wire Plus Today's episode features: . (featuring a clip from the Daily Wire's hit documentary, "What is a Woman?" (What Is a Woman? ) (Coming Soon) (Partially Explained in Partially Explaining Why You Can Have a Stronger Mindfulness? ) (Partial Epilogue to "What Is A Woman?" (The Real Means a Girl Like That?) (And How To Be a Woman Like That)


Transcript

00:00:00.960 Hey everyone, real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious and important.
00:00:06.480 Dr. Jordan Peterson has created a new series that could be a lifeline for those battling depression and anxiety.
00:00:12.740 We know how isolating and overwhelming these conditions can be, and we wanted to take a moment to reach out to those listening who may be struggling.
00:00:20.100 With decades of experience helping patients, Dr. Peterson offers a unique understanding of why you might be feeling this way in his new series.
00:00:27.420 He provides a roadmap towards healing, showing that while the journey isn't easy, it's absolutely possible to find your way forward.
00:00:35.360 If you're suffering, please know you are not alone. There's hope, and there's a path to feeling better.
00:00:41.780 Go to Daily Wire Plus now and start watching Dr. Jordan B. Peterson on depression and anxiety.
00:00:47.460 Let this be the first step towards the brighter future you deserve.
00:00:57.420 Hello everybody. I'm speaking today to Dr. Miriam Grossman, who I first encountered as a consequence of watching Matt Walsh's documentary,
00:01:17.240 What is a Woman?, where she made quite a spectacular appearance.
00:01:20.840 Miriam Grossman, MD, is a physician, author, and public speaker.
00:01:24.560 She has been vocal for many years about the capture of her profession, psychiatry, by ideologues leading to dangerous and experimental treatments on children and betrayal of parents.
00:01:37.140 As I said, Dr. Grossman was featured in the Daily Wire's hit documentary, What is a Woman?
00:01:42.100 She's the author of four books, and her work has been translated into 11 languages.
00:01:47.340 After graduating with honors from Bryn Mawr College, Dr. Grossman attended New York University Med School.
00:01:53.080 She completed an internship in pediatrics at Beth Israel Hospital in New York,
00:01:58.380 and a residency in psychiatry through Cornell Medical College, followed by a fellowship in child and adolescent psychiatry.
00:02:07.360 Dr. Grossman is board-certified in psychiatry and in the subspecialty of child and adolescent psychiatry.
00:02:15.300 And so I thought it would be interesting, especially given our shared interest as well in clinical matters,
00:02:22.120 because Dr. Grossman is a practicing clinician.
00:02:26.060 I thought it would be interesting to have a further conversation.
00:02:29.000 So that's what we're doing today.
00:02:30.360 She wrote, You're Teaching My Child What? back in 2009.
00:02:34.720 It's pretty damn early, all things considered.
00:02:36.900 And she has a new book coming out later this year.
00:02:39.780 It's already available for pre-order.
00:02:41.220 You can check that out in the video description via URL link there.
00:02:46.780 It's called Lost in Transnation, A Child Psychiatrist's Guide Out of the Madness.
00:02:52.800 And so out of the madness, that's pretty forthright terminology, you might say.
00:02:57.560 So why don't we start on the biographical side a bit?
00:03:01.820 You started to become concerned about the issues you've been writing and speaking about, well, obviously before 2009,
00:03:09.500 because you wrote a book in 2009, and that usually takes a year or two.
00:03:13.680 And so you're an early observer of things going seriously sideways on the clinical front.
00:03:20.200 And so let's go back to, well, the decade of the 2000s.
00:03:25.820 What were you seeing, and why do you think you were concerned about it when so many of your colleagues, my colleagues,
00:03:33.240 are still not concerned about it, let's say?
00:03:36.040 Yes.
00:03:37.140 Well, what happened is that I was researching sex education and what young people are taught in their sex education.
00:03:45.780 And I was doing that because I was working with students at UCLA at the time.
00:03:51.140 And there was such an alarming degree of sexually transmitted infections and abortions and so on
00:04:01.000 that I was curious to know exactly what kids are being taught about sexuality.
00:04:08.280 And I was quite shocked to see what they were being taught.
00:04:14.840 But one of the things that shocked me, I think, more than anything, was I discovered this, I like to call it a belief system
00:04:24.680 or an ideology of gender that kids were being told that there's something called gender, which is separate from sex.
00:04:39.160 And it's sort of like a psychological sex and that a person can have a gender that's at odds with their physical reality
00:04:50.260 and that that is normal and healthy.
00:04:53.840 And in fact, it's wonderful to explore what your gender might be and so on and so forth,
00:05:00.360 all the things that we know about that are being said right now.
00:05:03.600 And that, I mean, I just couldn't believe it.
00:05:09.620 I couldn't believe that.
00:05:12.080 First of all, you know, it's not so.
00:05:16.280 You cannot simply claim that you can divorce your identity from your physical reality
00:05:26.940 and all that is just all fine and good.
00:05:31.960 That's dangerous.
00:05:32.940 And I knew from the second that I saw it, I was very concerned about the destabilizing
00:05:41.640 and confusing effect that that would have on young people.
00:05:46.120 I mean, we want, as you know, in psychiatry and psychology,
00:05:53.020 we want people to have a stable identity.
00:05:58.160 People want to know who they are.
00:06:00.800 They don't want to be confused about who they are.
00:06:02.960 And they certainly don't want to be confused about something as important
00:06:06.740 as whether they're male or female.
00:06:10.360 And so...
00:06:11.400 When the pronoun legislation came out in Canada, Bill C-16,
00:06:17.920 which mandated gender-ideological-related pronoun usage,
00:06:25.320 well, in personal conversation,
00:06:28.300 I told the Canadian Senate that that would cause enough confusion
00:06:34.240 to produce a psychological epidemic among young women
00:06:38.500 because the literature on that's quite clear going back several hundred years.
00:06:42.000 And I think you can make a pretty strong case,
00:06:44.800 and you do this to some degree in your book in Chapter 7,
00:06:47.440 that there are few more fundamental perceptual categories than male and female.
00:06:55.280 I think they might be, that category system might be as fundamental as up or down,
00:07:00.880 or black and white, or light and dark.
00:07:03.320 Those would be the only ones that I can think of that are in the same,
00:07:06.600 at the same depth of cognitive necessity, perceptual necessity.
00:07:11.560 You know, one of the things that people tend to think when they think casually
00:07:15.060 is that if you have more choice, you have more freedom,
00:07:19.160 and more choice and more freedom is always good.
00:07:21.740 But the problem with that is that a plethora of choice,
00:07:26.040 so excess choice, excess option,
00:07:29.320 produces not freedom but anxiety
00:07:32.280 because there's only a limited amount of information
00:07:36.060 that you can deal with at any given moment.
00:07:38.760 And if people are put in a situation where everything is up for grabs,
00:07:44.400 they're not free, they're terrified.
00:07:47.080 And that's part of the reason, as far as I can tell,
00:07:49.240 why rates of depression and anxiety among young people have skyrocketed recent years,
00:07:53.520 especially among young women who are also the ones
00:07:56.220 who are most likely to fall prey to psychological epidemics in general,
00:08:00.220 and the one that we're in now specifically.
00:08:02.620 And I certainly agree with that.
00:08:07.900 And especially when one of those many choices
00:08:10.640 that we're providing to young people is to deny reality.
00:08:15.140 So it's not just that we're providing them with too many choices.
00:08:19.040 You know, like when you walk down the cereal aisle
00:08:22.460 and there's like 200 different kinds of cereal
00:08:24.960 and you get dizzy from it.
00:08:26.380 That's not what we're talking about.
00:08:27.780 We're talking about one of the options here
00:08:29.860 is to actually deny reality.
00:08:31.800 And it's not, I would even go further than that.
00:08:35.780 There's a celebration of denying reality.
00:08:40.120 There's a celebration of being confused.
00:08:43.680 Now, you'll note that in the, you know,
00:08:46.740 that LGBTQ includes that Q.
00:08:52.480 And I think that's very important to look at.
00:08:55.260 When you include the letter Q in the list of different identities,
00:08:59.900 LGBTQ and then plus, the Q stands for questioning.
00:09:05.740 Now, since when can questioning actually be an identity?
00:09:10.360 And the meaning of identity is that it's something that is more or less fixed.
00:09:18.880 Not that it's something that's a big question mark.
00:09:21.880 Well, identity, it would be useful to delve into that too,
00:09:27.480 because people don't really understand what an identity does.
00:09:33.220 And we have lapsed into this idiot subjectivity
00:09:37.440 that's predicated on the assumption that you are whatever you feel.
00:09:43.200 Now, first of all, that's a very bad measurement
00:09:45.260 from a scientific or clinical perspective,
00:09:47.520 because you never rely as a good clinician merely on what people feel.
00:09:52.260 You need multiple converging sources of evidence to make a diagnosis.
00:09:56.860 But the second part is more relevant,
00:10:00.180 which is that your identity is actually a framework
00:10:03.980 of attentional prioritization and action
00:10:06.760 that enables you to function well in the natural and social environments.
00:10:11.220 You could say the psychological, natural, and social environments.
00:10:15.000 And what you feel you are is not going to be a useful identity
00:10:19.500 if it's not integrated with other people.
00:10:23.320 You know, Piaget pointed out, for example,
00:10:26.040 that developmental psychologists,
00:10:27.460 that children have to integrate their ability to play in a social context.
00:10:33.920 They have to negotiate an identity,
00:10:35.900 even when they're just playing a game with their friends.
00:10:38.060 And identity itself is socially negotiated,
00:10:41.840 which the lefties should know,
00:10:43.020 because they're all bang on about constructivism constantly.
00:10:46.840 And so the idea that identity is only subjective
00:10:49.980 and that it's only defined by what you feel is unethical.
00:10:54.560 That's an unethical stance for clinicians to adopt,
00:10:56.860 but it's also completely impractical,
00:10:58.620 because your identity is the game you play with your intimate partner.
00:11:03.920 It's the game you play with your family.
00:11:05.620 It's the game you play with your community.
00:11:07.240 Like, you have to be nested socially at multiple levels of the social hierarchy
00:11:12.400 in order to have a functional identity,
00:11:14.400 and then to replace that with merely what you feel
00:11:18.300 and to enforce that by fiat.
00:11:20.800 Well, the only thing that could be more counterproductive than that
00:11:23.780 is, as you pointed out,
00:11:26.080 an identity that's only based on questioning,
00:11:28.340 which is just a pathway to, you know, existential angst and hopelessness.
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00:13:08.860 Well, we have to acknowledge that aside from being unethical and confusing,
00:13:17.080 it's extremely dangerous because it puts...
00:13:21.060 Well, yes.
00:13:21.620 And we have to always keep that in front of us.
00:13:27.300 You know, I spend a lot of time talking with families, parents, kids, and people who have been through this ordeal.
00:13:37.840 And so I always have in front of me, Dr. Peterson, their faces and their words.
00:13:48.060 And one of the reasons that I wanted to do this interview with you is to give those people a voice.
00:13:57.760 There's a whole population of individuals, and I'm speaking here.
00:14:01.600 People have already talked about the detransitioners, and you had Chloe Cole on, which was amazing.
00:14:07.860 But I want to speak about a different population, and that is the parents.
00:14:13.320 The parents of these young people who have fallen into, I'm going to say, this darkness and this confusion.
00:14:24.680 These parents are traumatized.
00:14:32.880 And let me just tell you a little story.
00:14:36.420 A few years ago, I joined a support group, an online support group of parents who were new,
00:14:49.740 whose kids had recently announced that they were the opposite sex or neither sex.
00:14:56.820 And, you know, there are these private Facebook groups and other groups that parents attend,
00:15:04.180 and they generally are anonymous, and they have to be vetted.
00:15:08.800 And, you know, there's this huge process that they have to go through that takes weeks and weeks
00:15:14.860 in order to get the support that they need.
00:15:18.740 Because our profession, the mental health profession, is not giving them—our profession is demonizing them.
00:15:27.080 So they have to go—
00:15:28.320 You're saying demonizing the parents who are concerned about what's happening to their kids on the gender education front?
00:15:33.880 Yes, the parents that will not immediately, you know, jump into affirmation,
00:15:40.420 and that are feeling very strongly that this is not, you know, the real issue.
00:15:47.240 That the real issue is that the child has underlying trauma or autism or anxiety or what have you.
00:15:54.880 The real issue may be that the family has had a lot of—you know, there's been crisis
00:16:00.840 or there's been losses or deaths or COVID or what have you.
00:16:04.380 And the family is saying, look, my child is now saying that, you know, that they're transgender,
00:16:11.360 but I really feel that there's other things going on here.
00:16:14.740 Why are you immediately giving us a referral to an endocrinologist for blockers and testosterone?
00:16:22.840 And those parents are traumatized because—well, they're traumatized for lots of reasons.
00:16:30.280 Okay, let's list their traumas, and I have a whole chapter about this in my book.
00:16:35.540 Because honestly, Dr. Peterson, I am so troubled by how these parents have been treated and are being treated
00:16:45.100 by the mental health profession, by the medical profession, by the media.
00:16:51.480 Yeah, well, you know, the most common problem that I've seen emerge out of that is this.
00:16:59.240 So the American Psychological Association announced in its Guidelines for Gender-Affirming Care
00:17:04.360 that there were no valid long-term studies of the psychological consequences of transitioning.
00:17:09.880 And they attributed that to the prejudice on the part of clinicians and researchers against the trans community,
00:17:15.920 which is, of course, an absolutely preposterous accusation.
00:17:20.900 But be that as it may.
00:17:23.500 But then three or four pages later, they said, well, you know, the evidence is very clear
00:17:26.920 that if you don't help people transition early, that their mental health outcome is much worse,
00:17:31.860 including the risk for suicide.
00:17:33.260 Now, both of those can't be true.
00:17:35.820 We can't have an absolute dearth of long-term follow-up studies on the gender transformation front
00:17:41.000 because of prejudice in the research field,
00:17:43.260 and know without a doubt that youthful transition is the best pathway to mental health,
00:17:48.800 which it most certainly and 100% is not.
00:17:52.560 But that hasn't stopped idiot coward psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers, etc.,
00:17:58.640 from saying such things to parents as, well, would you rather have a dead child or a live trans child?
00:18:09.780 And so they put that at the feet of the parents, which is, well, if you object to this,
00:18:14.380 then all you're doing is increasing the suicide risk for your troubled child,
00:18:19.700 which is about as cruel a thing as you could possibly say to parents.
00:18:24.760 I can't imagine something more manipulative and also something so ungrounded in anything approximating clinical fact.
00:18:33.740 Now, it is the case, perhaps, that a young woman who is troubled emotionally,
00:18:39.520 who takes testosterone might feel a momentary improvement in mood
00:18:44.120 that's a consequence of the physiological effects of the testosterone.
00:18:48.040 But there's no evidence whatsoever that that's actually linked to the gender transition process.
00:18:52.700 Now, you don't see the same elevation in mood, by the way,
00:18:56.240 as far as I've been able to tell from the research literature,
00:18:58.860 in the case of boys who are transitioning to girls.
00:19:02.000 And that also indicates that it's more than likely pharmacological.
00:19:05.720 But it is the case that the medical profession, the counseling profession,
00:19:09.580 has been enticed into this situation and also compelled by legislation,
00:19:13.980 gender-affirming care legislation,
00:19:15.920 to outright lie to parents about the relative risks.
00:19:19.480 And you know, like I know, that these kids who are gender dysphoric,
00:19:24.660 their underlying condition is something in the broader depression-anxiety realm
00:19:30.200 and that the gender dysphoria is only a variant expression of that underlying broader psychopathology.
00:19:37.840 So, if we look at what's happened in our conversation here just the past few minutes,
00:19:45.760 we can see the pattern of what is happening on a broader scale in all these discussions,
00:19:52.740 which is that we always return to the child.
00:19:56.380 Now, I'm not saying, of course, we have to talk about the kids.
00:20:00.220 Obviously, we have to talk about the kids.
00:20:02.260 But we have to talk about the parents and what all this is doing to families.
00:20:08.780 It's a destabling, destructive event in the family.
00:20:16.360 It's an ordeal that they'll have to go through for years and years.
00:20:21.860 And, you know, the way that I'm going to describe it to you,
00:20:26.020 I don't know if you saw the movie Gone with the Wind,
00:20:29.740 but there's an iconic scene in Gone with the Wind,
00:20:35.500 and I'm going to use the description of that scene to help you understand where I'm coming from.
00:20:42.580 So, the scene that I'm talking about is when Scarlett O'Hara is panicked
00:20:47.940 because Melanie is going to have a baby.
00:20:52.180 And she runs to find the doctor to help with the delivery of the baby.
00:20:57.360 And she goes, in order to find the doctor, she goes to this,
00:21:01.300 it's like a makeshift hospital on the grounds of a train station.
00:21:06.620 And you see Scarlett O'Hara walking through this just massive area of hundreds,
00:21:18.220 thousands of injured, moaning, you know, bleeding soldiers.
00:21:26.360 And some of them are dead.
00:21:28.320 And a lot of them are being carried away on stretchers.
00:21:31.180 And they're moaning and they're calling out to her.
00:21:34.260 Well, Dr. Peterson, that's what I'm seeing.
00:21:46.300 That's what I'm hearing.
00:21:47.560 All the families.
00:21:49.620 Remember, for every kid that has fallen into the gender ideology trap,
00:21:58.580 or whatever we're going to call it, the ideology, the pit,
00:22:01.400 there are lots of other people, not just parents, there's siblings, there's grandparents,
00:22:09.200 there's aunts and uncles and cousins.
00:22:11.620 There's a huge ripple effect on people.
00:22:16.840 And we need to see that because it's not only the kids that are the casualties,
00:22:21.680 the parents, the parents, the parents have trauma and they are grieving.
00:22:29.240 And it's all, none of it is acknowledged except by each other in these secret groups that they have.
00:22:37.260 And so what I did about a year and a half ago, I felt so troubled by what I saw going on.
00:22:44.860 And all these people calling me and, well, not calling me, but emailing me and, you know,
00:22:50.680 the parents and I'd meet them and hear their stories and see their anguish.
00:22:56.480 And, you know, a lot of their anguish was over my colleagues, my colleagues in medicine.
00:23:05.860 So I felt that I wanted to speak to these parents, not just individually, but as a group.
00:23:13.820 So I'm in touch with a lot of the parents of ROGD kids.
00:23:19.520 And we arranged an online Zoom.
00:23:23.580 An ROGD, ROGD is what?
00:23:27.500 Rapid onset gender dysphoria.
00:23:30.540 Yes, yes.
00:23:31.580 Right, right.
00:23:32.340 That's the psychogenic epidemic.
00:23:34.840 Correct.
00:23:35.580 Okay, so you arranged.
00:23:37.800 Yeah.
00:23:38.220 These are not the kids who, like Jazz Jennings, for example, from the age of two,
00:23:43.320 is, you know, comes to their parents and says, you know, I'm the opposite sex.
00:23:46.780 This is a whole other thing.
00:23:48.000 This is a social contagion.
00:23:51.480 It's fueled by social media.
00:23:54.120 Lisa Lipman described it.
00:23:55.540 I'm sure that you've had other people probably discuss that.
00:23:58.400 But, yeah, so I did a few Zooms with the parents, 50, 60 parents.
00:24:06.300 And I did it as much for them as for myself, honestly.
00:24:11.060 I really felt that I needed to say a few things to them.
00:24:14.340 And the gist of what I told them was I wanted to acknowledge the horrific ordeal that they're going through.
00:24:26.100 I wanted to acknowledge the trauma that they are going through.
00:24:31.120 Real trauma.
00:24:31.820 I'm not using that word, you know, people talk about, you know, being triggered from some little thing and they get upset.
00:24:39.640 You know, they got a bad haircut or something.
00:24:41.880 They got triggered.
00:24:42.560 I'm not talking about that.
00:24:43.780 Their equestrian hat doesn't fit.
00:24:46.340 Right.
00:24:47.080 That's the newest one.
00:24:47.940 Yeah.
00:24:48.060 Okay, this is genuine, you know, this is genuine post-traumatic stress disorder, but it's not post.
00:24:57.340 They're still going through it.
00:25:00.100 The trauma is ongoing.
00:25:02.880 Okay, day after day and week after week and sometimes year after year.
00:25:08.080 So they have a stress disorder and they also have grief from their losses.
00:25:17.680 And so when I went on to that Zoom with them, I wanted to recognize that because my profession is not recognizing it.
00:25:28.460 And I thought that it was important that they hear from a psychiatrist that I knew how traumatized they were and how many losses and how much grief they were dealing with.
00:25:43.580 And that I knew that my profession has abandoned them, by and large.
00:25:49.100 Are there exceptions?
00:25:50.100 Well, of course, there's exceptions.
00:25:51.720 But by and large, if you look at the mainstream authorities, right, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the Endocrine Society, the American Medical Association, on and on and on.
00:26:08.280 We have abandoned these parents and their children, I believe.
00:26:13.600 But I'm just talking about the parents.
00:26:15.240 How do you account for that, the fact that in such short order, all of these high-level governing bodies and associations, not only on the psychological front, but as you pointed out, on the psychiatric and medical front, have gone full, have announced their full support for all of the presuppositions that are producing this psychological epidemic?
00:26:40.200 I mean, how do you understand that?
00:26:42.320 And how did you see it make itself manifest in 2009?
00:26:47.340 Yeah.
00:26:48.540 Can I want to go just go back?
00:26:51.220 I didn't finish with my talks to the parents.
00:26:53.700 Oh, please do finish that.
00:26:55.760 Yeah, I just want to finish that one part.
00:26:58.560 So what I, you know, I was looking at my screen, you know, at the grid of all the different, the parents that were listening in.
00:27:10.220 And I said to them that as a psychiatrist, I am acknowledging the ordeal, the terrible ordeal they're going through, and that they have experienced and are experiencing trauma.
00:27:23.460 And when you're, you know, your daughter comes home and her voice has dropped and she's growing facial hair, that's traumatic.
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00:28:38.660 And when your son comes down the stairs to go to the prom, wearing a dress and heels and makeup, that's traumatic.
00:28:54.460 And worse, of course, there's much worse than those things.
00:29:00.380 You know, when you learn that your daughter is scheduled to have a mastectomy, when you learn that your son is having genital surgery and their kids are going to be sterilized, and you're not going to have grandchildren.
00:29:13.120 These things are traumatic and they are losses.
00:29:16.240 And I apologized on behalf, not that anyone from my profession chose me to speak for them, but I decided that I wanted to do that.
00:29:31.780 And I apologized.
00:29:32.940 And I looked out, I looked at that grid, you know, when you're doing a Zoom and there's a lot of people there.
00:29:40.620 And I noticed that almost, you know, more than half the cameras, 80% of the cameras were turned off.
00:29:49.380 I could only see really a few faces.
00:29:53.040 And at the time, I really, I didn't know why that would have been.
00:29:57.300 I thought maybe, you know, they're in the kitchen or they're busy or, I really didn't know.
00:30:03.580 And then I found out later on, Dr. Peterson, that their cameras were off because they were crying.
00:30:12.020 Uh-huh.
00:30:12.700 They were crying just to hear a professional, a mental health professional, say to them, yeah, yeah, you're traumatized.
00:30:29.320 You are dealing with grief, with serious grief, just like the trauma of someone that went through a natural disaster or 9-11.
00:30:40.120 Just like the trauma of parents who are told their kid has cancer.
00:30:45.600 No less than that.
00:30:46.980 And in fact, more complicated than that.
00:30:50.560 Because your trauma and grief is not acknowledged.
00:30:55.380 It's disenfranchised.
00:30:57.420 And as you know, disenfranchised grief, complicated grief, is much more difficult to live with, to deal with, and to heal with.
00:31:08.340 So when you have a terrible loss and grief, and you can't even share it with people at work, or maybe even your own family,
00:31:24.260 and maybe your other children are endorsing the unreality and are using the new name and pronouns.
00:31:34.260 Maybe even your parents, maybe even your spouse is.
00:31:36.760 And so some of these parents are living with such deep loneliness in their grief.
00:31:43.160 And I just feel a calling to speak out for those parents and to give them a voice.
00:31:55.140 Because they are terrified to be identified, most of them.
00:32:01.740 They, for various reasons, they don't want to be recognized for their beliefs in terms of their profession.
00:32:10.260 They don't, they're still hoping that their child is going to desist and come out of the gender confusion.
00:32:18.520 And they don't want their child to be aware that they're speaking out.
00:32:23.620 So, when I speak to parents, you have to understand, they're very often in their cars.
00:32:30.180 They're in the basement.
00:32:31.640 They're in the garage.
00:32:33.360 They're in their bathrooms, whispering.
00:32:35.400 So, you're not speaking merely of disenfranchised grief.
00:32:42.860 So, we could define that as someone isolated who's unable to pour out their heart, let's say, to anyone who's willing to listen.
00:32:50.340 You're actually talking about demonized grief.
00:32:52.940 Because the understory here is that in our current political and ideological climate, if you dare to grieve about the fact that your child is being pushed towards surgical sterilization by idiot ideologues, then not only is that inappropriate, it's positively morally unacceptable.
00:33:14.000 Because, apparently, this is something that all good-thinking people, including parents, should only celebrate.
00:33:21.300 And if you oppose it in any manner whatsoever, not only is that inappropriate, it's positive evidence that you're a bigoted, misogynistic, exclusionary, racist, homophobe.
00:33:32.600 All the satanic adjectives you can possibly imagine are going to be dumped on you.
00:33:36.040 So, it's worse than mere disenfranchisement.
00:33:39.340 And that you are the reason that your child's mental health has plummeted.
00:33:44.380 Right.
00:33:44.660 You are the reason, if your child makes a suicide, it is your fault for not affirming that child immediately.
00:33:52.080 And what I have in my book is advice for parents on how to deal with that.
00:33:58.860 For example, if they have to admit their child to the hospital for a suicide attempt, how to talk with the staff at the hospital about this issue.
00:34:08.720 When the staff is going to sit down with them, the treatment team is going to sit down with the parents and say,
00:34:14.380 well, you know, you really, you have to affirm your child.
00:34:18.880 This is why your child is trying to commit suicide.
00:34:21.460 So, I give parents very detailed advice on that conversation that they need to have with the staff at the hospital or with their therapist or at the schools.
00:34:36.020 You know, I am, what I'm trying to do is to provide parents with the tools that they need in order, you know,
00:34:43.660 they're trying to protect their child, not only against the ideology, but against all the institutions that we used to trust.
00:34:54.040 Our schools, our mental health, medicine, the field of medicine, hospitals, you know, the list goes on and on.
00:35:03.560 Those institutions that we used to trust, parents need the ammunition and the wherewithal and the confidence to be able to go to them and say,
00:35:15.260 well, hold on a minute, let me just tell you about A, B, C, and D.
00:35:21.320 And I give them the information that they need.
00:35:24.800 So, there is no consensus on this issue.
00:35:27.560 You know, parents and everyone is being led to believe that there's a consensus on this issue of how do we take care of these kids.
00:35:39.100 There is no consensus.
00:35:41.660 There is an all-out war going on on a professional level that no one is hearing about
00:35:51.320 because it's not being covered outside of people like yourself and other, you know, conservative media,
00:35:57.680 is covering the fact that there is an international debate going on
00:36:02.400 and that there are countries who have made a 180,
00:36:05.280 the most liberal LGBT-friendly countries, such as Finland and Sweden and England,
00:36:13.280 as you know, have made a 180 in this direction and so that a child living in Stockholm or Oslo
00:36:23.280 is not going to be able to get those puberty blockers and that testosterone without, in general, cannot get them
00:36:31.940 if they are entered into, you know, a very rare instance in which they perhaps are part of a study
00:36:41.800 in which they're closely going to be monitored and watched and given a lot of psychotherapy and so on and so forth.
00:36:48.080 But in general, kids are not going to be able to access those treatments.
00:36:53.360 Whereas in this country, in this country, you walk in and get blockers after half an hour.
00:36:59.440 In this country, you walk into Planned Parenthood.
00:37:02.420 Planned Parenthood has been particularly pathological on that front.
00:37:05.840 They had a gender euphoria promotion advertising to kids the ease of access and low cost of the minimal counseling
00:37:19.200 necessary to start them on puberty blockers, which then turns into hormone therapy,
00:37:23.620 which then generally leads down the garden path to surgery.
00:37:26.220 This advice for parents, is this in your 2009 book, Your Teaching My Child What, or in your new book, Lost in Transnation?
00:37:35.000 No, no. It's coming up. It's coming up.
00:37:37.420 In 2009, I had no idea that things would explode like this.
00:37:42.340 In 2009, I thought that when I described what kids were being taught in sex education, using our tax dollars,
00:37:52.160 that they were being taught all this rubbish about gender and, you know, born in the wrong body.
00:37:58.080 And, you know, it's a matter of, it's oppressive to be taught that we are all either male or female
00:38:05.160 and that we have to break out of that oppressive, you know, way of thinking.
00:38:10.220 Binary.
00:38:11.460 Binary, yeah.
00:38:12.440 That oppressive gender binary.
00:38:14.600 I thought that when I demonstrated that kids were being taught that, there would be, you know, a huge reaction.
00:38:23.400 Sadly, that did not happen.
00:38:25.400 And this huge reaction is only taking place many years later when we are being faced with this terrible crisis.
00:38:32.920 Okay. Well, so I thought, unless you have another direction you want to take this in,
00:38:36.640 I thought we might delve into the gender issue for a moment, both scientifically and historically.
00:38:41.960 I want to, I would like you to tell the audience a few things about John Money, for example.
00:38:47.580 So let's foray that way.
00:38:49.180 Okay. I'm just, I'll say one more thing.
00:38:51.460 I was just to say one more thing about the parent.
00:38:53.120 I'm very devoted to the parents.
00:38:56.120 Okay.
00:38:57.120 We, you know, everyone is terribly concerned about the suicide rate among kids who are questioning
00:39:09.320 or confused about their gender identity.
00:39:13.460 And of course, we have to always be concerned.
00:39:16.540 One suicide is too many.
00:39:19.240 We're all on the same page about preventing suicide.
00:39:22.340 Okay.
00:39:24.080 But no one is talking about the fact that, you know what?
00:39:28.520 Some of the parents are suicidal.
00:39:32.800 This whole thing is driving some of the parents to feeling suicidal.
00:39:38.420 And I'm talking about parents who have gone through the most terrible things in their lives.
00:39:45.380 And this issue, this particular ordeal with their child, seeing their child slip away and become
00:39:54.260 someone unrecognizable, both in terms of their personality and their physical persona, and in terms of their future losses,
00:40:07.720 will this child be totally estranged from the family?
00:40:12.240 Is this child going to come visit me when I'm sick in the hospital?
00:40:17.200 Is this child, you know, going to come to their siblings' weddings?
00:40:20.780 So you have to understand that even parents who are, you know, who went through divorces or cancer or 9-11 or what have you, terrible things,
00:40:33.960 and they were able to go through those things without psychiatric help, without medication.
00:40:40.880 This particular issue, they tell me this is worse than all of that.
00:40:46.820 And now they do need medication.
00:40:48.600 And now they can't sleep.
00:40:50.680 And now they can't get through the day.
00:40:53.720 Well, I can barely imagine anything worse than being in a situation where you have a child who's being pressured by idiot ideologues
00:41:02.380 and potentially your spouse as well to radically transform themselves in an extraordinarily destructive way
00:41:08.740 in a manner that's going to echo down the decades, that's going to disrupt the entire family structure permanently,
00:41:16.760 and that's going to turn the person you love into something like a confused monstrosity,
00:41:22.320 which I think is the most general outcome,
00:41:25.180 and that you are powerless and made powerless as well by the courts to do anything about it,
00:41:30.840 and also subject to the punishment of law if you dare to voice your anti-transition opinion.
00:41:38.580 I mean, that's a pretty dismal corner of hell.
00:41:40.760 Okay, so yeah, so I also address that.
00:41:43.720 I address schools.
00:41:45.240 I have a chapter on schools in this upcoming book, understanding what's going on in the schools.
00:41:51.700 This book that's coming out, Lost in Transnation, is not only a book for parents who have a child that is currently in this ordeal.
00:42:03.680 It's a book for parents whose children are little or who have not yet been influenced to go in this direction.
00:42:12.900 I want to help parents to be proactive so that they can dodge this nuclear bomb and not be ambushed by it.
00:42:24.900 Parents are being ambushed by this.
00:42:27.680 They don't expect it.
00:42:29.340 They think it's not going to happen in their family.
00:42:31.760 And I want parents to know that no family is immune, and they must be prepared for this.
00:42:39.560 They have to get educated.
00:42:41.320 They have to understand what they're dealing with, what the ideology is about.
00:42:45.480 I prefer to call it a belief system, but whatever.
00:42:49.460 You know, what's going on in the schools, in the courts?
00:42:52.920 What if CPS, what if the Department of Family and Services knocks on your door and they're there with the police?
00:43:01.240 What are you going to do?
00:43:02.760 I have, I tell parents what to do when that happens.
00:43:09.080 What are their rights?
00:43:10.320 That's another experience that's extremely stressful for families, for a family that's been striving to act in a decent and appropriate manner,
00:43:21.300 to have Child Protection Services show up on the doorstep, especially with the police,
00:43:25.900 especially when they threaten the other kids, let's say, with being removed from the family,
00:43:30.300 and also make a public display so the neighbours can watch,
00:43:35.480 and also set the parents who are conscientious back on their heels with regards to grief and guilt
00:43:41.680 for being accused by the authorities of doing such things as abusing their children,
00:43:46.120 is that that's absolutely devastating to people.
00:43:48.460 I know many people to whom that's happened, and that's just one bit of the nightmare that you're describing.
00:43:56.880 It's unfathomable how bad this is.
00:44:00.300 How evil this is.
00:44:02.520 Well, so let's delve into that a little bit.
00:44:05.020 So I wrote an article a while back, which I tried to make as hard-hitting as I possibly could.
00:44:10.280 We published that in The Telegraph, and I described the people who were engaged in this on the counselling side,
00:44:16.700 so our professions, let's say, as liars, and the surgeons who are participating in this utter greed-inspired,
00:44:23.900 delusional, sadistic madness as butchers, and called for jail sentences, for example,
00:44:30.380 for the people who were involved, which is about as harsh as I could manage.
00:44:33.540 And, you know, the response to that column was remarkably positive.
00:44:39.260 First of all, it was published, which shocked the hell out of me.
00:44:41.960 And second, the responses, generally speaking, were extraordinarily positive.
00:44:46.180 And given that, and given as well that, you know, I know many of my clinical colleagues and many, many clinicians around the world,
00:44:55.020 and it's not as if they don't have more sophisticated theories of identity than those are being put forth by the gender ideologues,
00:45:02.460 how the hell do you account for two things?
00:45:05.180 I asked you this question earlier.
00:45:07.300 The absolute capture of these once respectable institutions, which is appalling beyond comprehension,
00:45:13.840 but also the unbelievable cowardice demonstrated by members of the psychiatric, psychological, and counselling communities.
00:45:21.020 I mean, some of it's ignorance.
00:45:22.600 You know, you talk to counsellors now and then who are so damn poorly educated that they buy the gender ideology.
00:45:27.620 But there's the vast majority of well-trained clinicians are wise and perspicacious enough to know perfectly well
00:45:34.540 that these identity theories are, to call them simplistic and deluded, is barely to scratch the surface.
00:45:40.120 But they're unbelievably timid about coming forward.
00:45:44.680 And so what the hell happened?
00:45:46.240 Like, how did this capture take place?
00:45:47.880 And how do you account for this stunningly widespread dereliction of duty and utter cowardice?
00:45:55.280 Well said, well said.
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00:47:15.340 Okay, well, this is one of my goals of the book also, is to educate parents so that they understand the background.
00:47:29.220 So you mentioned John Money.
00:47:30.540 Of course, this goes back to John Money.
00:47:33.040 John Money introduced the idea of gender identity.
00:47:38.280 He coined the term gender identity and he said that the gender identity is completely separate from biology and that it is something, it is one's identity as male or female.
00:47:58.740 Because back then, of course, we didn't have the non-binary and, you know, in between all that, you know, 47 different genders stuff.
00:48:06.320 So in the 50s, when John Money was writing and speaking about all this, we had male and female.
00:48:13.540 And his theory was that male and female is something that is foisted on a baby, a child, by society.
00:48:28.980 And that it is unrelated to biology.
00:48:31.640 He further said that men and women, males and females, have biological distinctions, but they are limited to menstruating, gestating, and lactating.
00:48:49.480 And that that was it.
00:48:53.220 Aside from those three things, everything else in terms of personality and preferences for activities or, you know, cognitive abilities, emotional styles, perceptions, that is all, it's a social construct, okay?
00:49:19.800 It's all put on the child in the first two and a half to three years of life.
00:49:26.400 And then John Money said it's fixed.
00:49:28.700 So, you know, when you put the pink blanket on the little girl and the blue blanket on the boy and then you give them the toys and you give them, you know, you have certain expectations based on whether it's a boy or a girl.
00:49:44.420 And all those things, the frilly dresses and the, you know, the 50s was a time, of course, of stereotypes.
00:49:53.020 So he spoke about it in terms of, you know, the girl's going to be in the kitchen making cookies and the boy's going to be out, you know, fixing the car with his dad.
00:50:02.000 And he said, if you take a girl, you know, with ambiguous, okay, I'm sorry, let me go back a minute.
00:50:11.980 John Money's specialty, his interest was in hermaphrodites, okay?
00:50:17.440 Very rare babies that are born with ambiguous genitalia.
00:50:24.420 And those ambiguous genitalia are due to some congenital issue, either endocrinological or due to chromosomal abnormality.
00:50:37.220 And the baby is born.
00:50:39.320 They take a look at the genitals.
00:50:41.120 It's just not clear what's going on.
00:50:43.520 And that's where the term comes from, this is important, assigned sex at birth, assigned.
00:50:54.220 Because in those cases, and these were the cases that John Money became an expert in, and he opened up a center specifically having to do with, I mean, his PhD that he wrote in the 50s was on the issue of sex assignment of hermaphrodites.
00:51:13.520 What do you do?
00:51:14.900 It's a crisis.
00:51:16.440 You have to say, we had a girl or we had a boy.
00:51:19.980 And so, what do you do in those cases?
00:51:22.820 And he had a special interest in this.
00:51:25.420 Now, you and I know that when someone has a certain interest in their life that consumes them to the point that they're writing their PhD about it, they're studying it, they make it their career, there's usually a reason behind it.
00:51:41.100 And it's worthwhile exploring that reason.
00:51:46.560 Now, when you look at John Money, when you look at John Money and his early life, and he wrote about this, he was very open about it.
00:51:56.900 He grew up in a, he grew up in a, under the hand of an abusive, alcoholic, out-of-control father who would beat him and his mother.
00:52:15.220 So, John Money, as a child, was not only beaten, but watched his mother being beaten.
00:52:24.300 He no doubt had a terrible childhood and that, that influenced his, his image of masculinity was this monstrous individual.
00:52:40.480 And he wrote later on, he grew up on a farm, by the way.
00:52:46.200 And he wrote later on in one of his books that he realized that the world might be better off if not only animals, but men were gelded at birth, castrated.
00:53:01.940 Okay, so gelded is the word, you know, used for animals.
00:53:05.320 So he said that the world might be a better place if men were gelded.
00:53:11.700 And he also wrote, he said, I wear the vile mark of male sexuality.
00:53:26.080 In other words, we would call that gender dysphoria.
00:53:29.800 He was talking about his own body and he's saying that his genitals were vile to him.
00:53:44.400 That is gender dysphoria.
00:53:47.000 We didn't call it then.
00:53:48.400 We didn't have a name for it back then.
00:53:49.940 So clearly, John Money was uncomfortable, to say the very least, with his own masculinity and his own body.
00:54:02.000 So it's not a surprise that he would come up with a theory that, if true, would comfort him on some level.
00:54:13.840 That he is not going to become his father.
00:54:16.980 He's not his father.
00:54:18.680 Even though he shares the same type of physical reality, his body, his genitals are of a man.
00:54:28.300 But if his theory is true, and there's such a thing as gender, which is completely separate than biology,
00:54:39.220 then it gave John Money like a way out of not identifying with a monster.
00:54:48.540 Well, so you can imagine, you can imagine the psychological impetus there is,
00:54:54.220 if you make the initial assumption that there's a certain degree of innate pathological aggression associated with masculinity,
00:55:02.380 and then you develop a counter-theory that much of that is in fact socialized,
00:55:07.520 then there's a root out of it.
00:55:08.960 And that gives him, well, that gives him an easy out.
00:55:11.520 That's the thing, is that instead of having to contend with that internally,
00:55:15.260 he can also externalize that and make that a sociological phenomenon.
00:55:19.260 I see this with the insistence on the trans activist's part,
00:55:24.760 that trans identity is much more common than it truly is,
00:55:29.440 and that it's immoral to interfere with its manifestation.
00:55:33.200 I see that as an extension of Freudian rationalization.
00:55:36.400 You know, if you've taken a dramatic route in your life or something dramatic has happened to you,
00:55:42.620 you have every reason to justify your decision post-hoc.
00:55:47.700 And so let's walk through what happened with Money.
00:55:51.100 So he got involved in a very famous case, which is worth paying out.
00:55:56.180 He certainly did.
00:55:56.980 But let's just tell your audience furthermore that he wrote his PhD on hermaphrodites
00:56:08.060 and on how to assign their sex.
00:56:11.480 And then he went on to open the first clinic in the United States for hermaphrodites
00:56:19.280 for their treatment, including their surgeries.
00:56:23.100 So he made available for the first time in the United States a place where there would be gender reassignment
00:56:35.820 or sex reassignment, including the surgeries.
00:56:39.680 And the surgeries involved castration, of course.
00:56:44.360 So we go back to what he said about being gelded.
00:56:48.140 And, you know, I can't help but think that on some level he might have been thinking,
00:56:54.640 you know, I'm helping these kids.
00:56:58.480 I'm helping these little boys by gelding them, by castrating them, and making them into women.
00:57:05.800 Of course, they can't be made into women, but the way that he was thinking about it.
00:57:10.520 So he had his theory, and he didn't have any way of proving it because, I mean, how do you prove
00:57:19.920 something like that?
00:57:21.900 Until this family showed up at his doorstep, and it was a family, a Canadian family from
00:57:32.960 Winnipeg, I think, right?
00:57:34.660 I think that's right, yeah.
00:57:37.280 Yeah.
00:57:37.940 And they were, the Reamer family, a blue-collar, very young couple, 20, 21 years old.
00:57:46.280 And they had a horrific tragedy in their family, which is that they gave birth to twin boys.
00:57:52.220 The boys were fine.
00:57:53.920 And when the boys were, well, actually, they had phimosis.
00:57:57.100 Phimosis is an abnormality of the opening of the urethra at the tip of the penis.
00:58:07.960 So the boys had phimosis.
00:58:11.820 And so the doctors recommended circumcision for the boys.
00:58:16.140 And they went in when they were eight months old for circumcision.
00:58:19.960 And the first boy to go in for the circumcision was Bruce.
00:58:25.040 And the equipment, there was a malfunction of the equipment.
00:58:38.040 And they were cauterizing the penis in order to circumcise it.
00:58:44.780 And instead of just that small amount of tissue that was supposed to be cauterized,
00:58:52.740 apparently the settings were incorrect and the entire penis was burnt.
00:59:00.660 So Bruce's penis was burnt beyond any functionality.
00:59:07.020 So these poor parents went home.
00:59:11.820 The other boy was not circumcised, just obviously.
00:59:15.980 They went home, and what are they supposed to do?
00:59:19.640 They have a boy without a penis.
00:59:23.000 What the hell are they supposed to do?
00:59:24.880 So months later, they were watching television.
00:59:34.020 And John Money happened to be on there.
00:59:37.780 And you have to know also that John Money was an extremely pompous,
00:59:43.860 self-assured individual.
00:59:48.180 He was sophisticated.
00:59:51.520 When he talked, you listened.
00:59:55.460 He came across as being definitive,
00:59:59.040 calling the shots, knowing what was going on,
01:00:04.140 knowing the research, knowing the truth.
01:00:05.960 And he, in this interview on television,
01:00:11.960 said that a boy can be raised as a girl,
01:00:16.780 and a girl can be raised as a boy,
01:00:18.780 if it's caught, if it's done early enough.
01:00:22.520 And that early enough means before the age of two and a half or three.
01:00:27.960 And the parents, the Reamer parents,
01:00:33.080 immediately took note of that,
01:00:36.400 and they thought, here's the answer.
01:00:39.960 This is the answer for Bruce.
01:00:42.560 This is what we're supposed to do.
01:00:45.320 So they contacted Dr. Money down in Baltimore,
01:00:52.200 and they made an appointment
01:00:54.980 and took the twins down to Baltimore
01:00:56.720 and went down there.
01:00:57.960 Again, you have to understand
01:01:01.200 that this was an uneducated, young, blue-collar family.
01:01:06.940 And when they were interviewed later
01:01:08.820 about their meetings with John Money,
01:01:11.940 they described him as like,
01:01:14.560 we just thought he was God.
01:01:17.500 We just thought, you know, this is,
01:01:20.240 I mean, he's a professor,
01:01:21.840 and he's got all the diplomas,
01:01:24.300 and he's the head of this entire clinic at an outstanding university,
01:01:32.600 one of the major universities in the world.
01:01:35.480 That was at Johns Hopkins, right?
01:01:36.980 Yes, yes.
01:01:38.420 So you have to imagine this young couple coming,
01:01:41.200 and they're at a loss,
01:01:42.920 and they are looking for an answer.
01:01:45.940 They've been praying.
01:01:47.100 They're looking for an answer to their prayers.
01:01:48.940 What are we going to do with Bruce?
01:01:50.120 And John Money says,
01:01:53.180 well, we have an answer for you.
01:01:55.780 Because male and female
01:01:58.040 is actually not related to chromosomes.
01:02:01.680 It's not related to hormones.
01:02:04.180 It's not innate.
01:02:05.500 We can take little Bruce,
01:02:09.000 and we have to do some surgery on Bruce.
01:02:13.080 We have to castrate him,
01:02:14.780 and we'll remove his testicles.
01:02:18.380 He already didn't have a penis.
01:02:21.720 We're going to remove his testicles.
01:02:23.800 We're going to make,
01:02:24.880 we're going to fashion, you know,
01:02:26.180 some sort of elementary sort of female genitalia.
01:02:31.920 You're going to give him a girl's name,
01:02:34.920 and you're going to put him in pink dresses
01:02:37.680 and give him dolls and raise him as a girl.
01:02:40.880 And you are never, ever,
01:02:43.400 Dr. Money told the parents,
01:02:45.380 never to tell him
01:02:47.220 that this was truly what happened,
01:02:50.200 and, you know, after he was born.
01:02:52.120 Never tell him,
01:02:53.300 because that will ruin everything.
01:02:55.900 And it's up to you.
01:02:58.040 You have to just work your hardest
01:03:01.320 to raise him as a girl
01:03:02.920 and make sure that everyone around him
01:03:05.740 is considering him a girl,
01:03:08.880 because essentially he is a girl.
01:03:11.600 And so not only was this the answer
01:03:14.260 to the Reamer's prayers,
01:03:16.660 this was, as you can understand now,
01:03:18.720 the answer to Dr. Money's prayers.
01:03:20.880 Right, right.
01:03:21.920 He had an experiment.
01:03:23.680 This was the experiment.
01:03:25.680 This was his proof of concept.
01:03:27.520 His concept was that being male and female
01:03:32.760 is completely separate from biology.
01:03:35.500 It's imposed by society.
01:03:38.820 It's a social construct.
01:03:41.680 And this was his proof of concept.
01:03:45.360 And so the Reamers went home.
01:03:48.060 Well, he had his surgery.
01:03:50.200 They took him home.
01:03:52.060 They named Bruce Brenda.
01:03:55.940 They put him in all the girls' clothing,
01:03:58.640 and they gave him dolls,
01:03:59.920 and they, you know,
01:04:01.540 they did all the things.
01:04:03.200 And he peed sitting down sometimes,
01:04:06.540 because as we'll learn later,
01:04:09.000 he actually preferred urinating standing up,
01:04:11.760 which is astonishing.
01:04:12.920 We learned later
01:04:16.380 that he always wanted to urinate standing up.
01:04:22.040 And from the time he was in diapers,
01:04:26.240 I think,
01:04:28.700 he was told he was a girl.
01:04:32.440 So that really is fascinating.
01:04:34.520 But anyway,
01:04:36.360 so they took him home,
01:04:38.480 raised him as a girl,
01:04:39.420 and Dr. Money started to follow the twins every year.
01:04:46.420 They would come down for a visit.
01:04:49.060 The parents would spend time speaking to Dr. Money,
01:04:53.620 and then the money,
01:04:54.800 I mean, the money.
01:04:56.960 Here's a slip.
01:04:58.620 Freudian slip for you.
01:05:01.160 Dr. Money would take the twins
01:05:03.660 without the parents
01:05:05.340 into his office
01:05:07.200 and spend time with the twins.
01:05:09.420 So this went on for years.
01:05:15.060 And Dr. Money began to report
01:05:17.140 on his study
01:05:19.440 that became a famous landmark study.
01:05:23.560 And he called them,
01:05:25.840 he called her Joan
01:05:27.340 in his study.
01:05:29.040 He was beginning to write about this
01:05:30.800 and lecture.
01:05:31.840 And he was claiming
01:05:32.840 that Joan,
01:05:35.520 a.k.a.
01:05:36.540 Brenda, a.k.a. Bruce,
01:05:38.220 was doing great.
01:05:41.560 I mean,
01:05:42.380 she was adjusting.
01:05:44.580 She was,
01:05:45.500 she may be a bit of a tomboy.
01:05:47.360 He would acknowledge that.
01:05:49.400 But in every way,
01:05:51.240 you know,
01:05:51.680 she was adjusting
01:05:52.640 and she was doing well
01:05:54.300 with friends
01:05:54.940 and with schools
01:05:55.880 and she liked playing with dolls
01:05:58.020 and she would mimic her mom.
01:06:01.360 And he was giving this glowing,
01:06:03.880 glowing report
01:06:04.640 from year to year.
01:06:05.700 And in his,
01:06:07.080 you know,
01:06:09.620 professional writing
01:06:10.860 of his studies,
01:06:13.000 his report,
01:06:13.860 and he was giving talks.
01:06:16.160 And he was getting,
01:06:17.360 you might imagine,
01:06:18.380 tremendous attention for this.
01:06:21.180 I mean,
01:06:21.460 you have to understand,
01:06:22.260 this was by now
01:06:23.320 maybe,
01:06:24.440 you know,
01:06:25.380 the early 60s.
01:06:27.180 This is feminism,
01:06:29.320 okay?
01:06:29.940 This is the sexual revolution.
01:06:32.400 This is a time
01:06:33.340 when society,
01:06:35.060 or at least part of society,
01:06:37.900 wanted nothing more to say
01:06:39.920 that male and female
01:06:41.540 is a social construct.
01:06:42.980 and that in order
01:06:46.040 to gain,
01:06:47.520 you know,
01:06:48.020 full equality,
01:06:49.640 women have to be considered
01:06:51.020 the same as men.
01:06:53.580 And,
01:06:54.360 you know,
01:06:55.420 to have a study
01:06:57.100 such as this study
01:06:58.520 of John Money's
01:06:59.520 in which
01:07:00.440 he was reporting
01:07:01.760 that this baby
01:07:03.900 who was
01:07:04.600 X,
01:07:05.300 Y,
01:07:05.480 you know,
01:07:05.720 normal chromosomes,
01:07:07.740 normal everything
01:07:08.760 biologically,
01:07:10.100 but is being
01:07:10.860 successfully raised
01:07:12.300 as a girl
01:07:13.120 because he has
01:07:14.480 a girl's name
01:07:15.440 and girls
01:07:16.280 and dresses
01:07:17.040 and dolls
01:07:18.080 and all,
01:07:19.760 you know,
01:07:19.960 his entire society,
01:07:22.080 his teachers
01:07:22.840 and his grandparents
01:07:24.000 and everyone
01:07:24.860 is reinforcing
01:07:26.320 the idea
01:07:27.160 that he's a delicate
01:07:28.760 girl
01:07:30.360 who likes to cook
01:07:32.420 and,
01:07:32.740 you know,
01:07:33.500 is going to grow up
01:07:34.460 to have babies.
01:07:35.820 I mean,
01:07:36.440 this was huge.
01:07:38.420 Now,
01:07:42.440 what happened
01:07:44.060 is that
01:07:45.020 this theory
01:07:46.440 of John Money's
01:07:47.780 became,
01:07:51.200 was accepted
01:07:52.160 over the decades.
01:07:54.980 We didn't find out
01:07:56.580 what really happened
01:07:58.360 with the twins
01:07:59.940 until decades later
01:08:02.820 and in the meantime,
01:08:06.000 during those decades,
01:08:07.860 his theory
01:08:08.760 became doctrine.
01:08:12.140 Okay,
01:08:12.420 his theory
01:08:13.060 became
01:08:13.660 just baked
01:08:14.440 into,
01:08:15.580 you know,
01:08:17.260 so many fields
01:08:18.680 of both
01:08:20.540 soft and hard
01:08:21.440 science
01:08:22.140 so that
01:08:23.320 it was standard
01:08:24.740 that whenever
01:08:25.280 you had,
01:08:26.700 for example,
01:08:28.220 an X,
01:08:29.220 Y
01:08:29.560 or any
01:08:31.400 child
01:08:32.220 that had
01:08:33.280 ambiguous genitalia,
01:08:34.840 if they could
01:08:35.360 be raised
01:08:35.900 as a girl,
01:08:36.980 they'd be raised
01:08:37.600 as a girl.
01:08:38.620 So they'd be castrated
01:08:39.720 just automatically.
01:08:40.860 Why?
01:08:41.620 Because of the
01:08:42.640 great success,
01:08:43.620 because of what
01:08:44.180 John Money
01:08:44.860 proved to us,
01:08:47.920 proved to us.
01:08:49.360 And so lots
01:08:50.140 and lots of boys
01:08:51.100 all over the world.
01:08:52.480 I mean,
01:08:52.760 this was written
01:08:53.440 into the,
01:08:54.480 you know,
01:08:55.840 the textbooks
01:08:56.440 of endocrinology
01:08:57.640 and the textbooks
01:08:58.300 of genetics.
01:09:00.340 I mean,
01:09:00.860 this became
01:09:01.620 truth,
01:09:02.700 so to speak.
01:09:03.500 Not that there
01:09:04.240 weren't people,
01:09:06.040 you know,
01:09:06.280 other scientists
01:09:07.520 that were
01:09:08.180 standing up
01:09:09.120 and saying,
01:09:10.640 John,
01:09:11.600 you know,
01:09:11.820 this isn't proven yet.
01:09:12.980 You know,
01:09:13.160 let's look a little closer.
01:09:14.520 I don't,
01:09:14.820 this is not necessarily
01:09:15.940 the case.
01:09:16.620 But what did he do?
01:09:17.940 He wouldn't tolerate that.
01:09:20.060 John Money,
01:09:20.980 you know,
01:09:21.860 was a tyrant.
01:09:23.220 He would not tolerate
01:09:24.400 another psychologist
01:09:27.100 or biologist
01:09:28.900 or geneticist
01:09:29.820 standing up
01:09:30.520 and trying to
01:09:31.700 publish something
01:09:32.600 that would challenge
01:09:34.760 his great
01:09:36.420 gender theory.
01:09:38.260 He would,
01:09:38.820 he would arrange,
01:09:40.280 you know,
01:09:40.500 he would intimidate
01:09:42.120 the editors
01:09:43.980 at the scientific journals
01:09:45.420 to not publish
01:09:46.420 those articles.
01:09:49.120 It's a lot of what's
01:09:50.140 actually going on
01:09:51.000 right now
01:09:51.440 is very similar.
01:09:52.760 Right.
01:09:53.280 So what happened
01:09:55.460 with the twins
01:09:56.200 is that
01:09:57.440 after decades,
01:10:01.840 in fact,
01:10:02.800 John Money
01:10:03.400 wrote a book
01:10:04.100 in 1997
01:10:05.040 in which he said
01:10:06.800 yet again
01:10:07.700 that his twin study,
01:10:11.580 that his,
01:10:12.200 that his gender theory
01:10:13.780 had been
01:10:14.640 confirmed
01:10:15.780 and supported
01:10:16.600 by the results
01:10:17.540 of this experiment
01:10:18.440 with the twins.
01:10:19.320 and the following
01:10:20.880 One,
01:10:21.680 one person experiment,
01:10:23.220 by the way.
01:10:23.760 A one person experiment.
01:10:24.780 Yeah,
01:10:25.420 but even that one person
01:10:26.920 it didn't work.
01:10:28.620 Okay,
01:10:28.880 so in 19,
01:10:29.940 Right.
01:10:30.240 Yeah,
01:10:30.640 so in 1998,
01:10:32.820 what do we call him now?
01:10:36.780 Not Brenda,
01:10:38.680 not Bruce,
01:10:40.400 but what happened
01:10:41.400 is that
01:10:41.920 we,
01:10:42.700 we,
01:10:43.120 we,
01:10:43.520 we discovered
01:10:44.320 that he stood up
01:10:45.800 and he said,
01:10:46.940 he just blew the cover
01:10:49.720 of this whole thing
01:10:50.860 was a hoax
01:10:51.580 and he,
01:10:53.220 his name was now David.
01:10:55.120 Brenda had become David
01:10:56.460 and he was
01:10:58.540 not only,
01:10:59.640 not only a man,
01:11:01.080 but he was married
01:11:02.220 to a woman
01:11:03.040 with,
01:11:04.240 and he had adopted
01:11:05.180 three stepchildren
01:11:06.680 and he worked
01:11:08.160 as a janitor
01:11:10.920 in a slaughterhouse.
01:11:15.200 Right.
01:11:15.800 So that was David.
01:11:16.940 David Reamer
01:11:17.880 and people can go
01:11:19.080 onto YouTube
01:11:19.960 and hear him
01:11:20.800 being interviewed
01:11:21.480 about his experience
01:11:23.340 of what it was like
01:11:24.260 to be told
01:11:25.560 for 14 years
01:11:27.620 of his life
01:11:28.300 that he's a girl
01:11:30.440 and to never,
01:11:32.080 ever,
01:11:32.740 ever feel
01:11:33.760 that that was,
01:11:34.720 that that was his truth.
01:11:36.960 And,
01:11:37.260 and what happened
01:11:39.280 is that during
01:11:39.980 all those years,
01:11:41.240 he,
01:11:41.900 he was not happy
01:11:43.740 with his dresses
01:11:44.580 and with his dolls.
01:11:45.700 he was,
01:11:47.080 he was,
01:11:48.080 he wanted to go
01:11:49.040 play with his brothers
01:11:50.400 tours.
01:11:51.180 He wanted to
01:11:52.340 pee standing up.
01:11:54.100 He wanted to,
01:11:55.500 you know,
01:11:55.980 he was rough.
01:11:56.880 He was,
01:11:57.320 he,
01:11:57.640 he,
01:11:58.240 he was,
01:11:59.240 he was so boyish
01:12:00.820 that,
01:12:02.020 and aggressive
01:12:02.720 that kids called him
01:12:05.560 cave woman.
01:12:08.320 okay,
01:12:09.480 they made fun of him
01:12:10.560 because the way,
01:12:11.680 the way that he walked
01:12:12.640 and his gestures
01:12:14.080 and his interests
01:12:15.780 were all so masculine.
01:12:18.400 And he was a miserable child
01:12:20.300 and the,
01:12:21.080 and the family was miserable.
01:12:22.420 And on top of everything,
01:12:24.220 when he was going back,
01:12:25.980 when the family was going back
01:12:27.060 for those yearly visits
01:12:28.320 to Johns Hopkins
01:12:29.300 with Dr. Money,
01:12:30.720 Dr. Money was sexually
01:12:32.040 abusing those twins.
01:12:33.560 Okay,
01:12:33.940 how?
01:12:35.040 He was forcing them
01:12:36.300 to undress
01:12:37.120 and to,
01:12:39.240 to mimic
01:12:41.140 sexual intercourse.
01:12:42.760 And he would say,
01:12:43.500 you know,
01:12:43.700 this is how,
01:12:44.920 this is what men
01:12:45.980 and women do together.
01:12:47.080 And he would,
01:12:48.160 you know,
01:12:48.500 humiliate them
01:12:49.700 and show them pictures.
01:12:51.760 And the point came,
01:12:53.280 why did they stop
01:12:54.160 going down to Johns Hopkins?
01:12:55.620 The boys refused to go.
01:12:58.560 They refused to go back
01:13:00.340 to see Dr. Money.
01:13:01.320 And the parents
01:13:01.840 couldn't understand why.
01:13:04.320 He was quite the stunning creep,
01:13:06.480 all things considered.
01:13:07.400 Now,
01:13:07.560 the Johns Hopkins
01:13:08.260 also closed that clinic down,
01:13:10.060 eh?
01:13:10.220 Not,
01:13:11.000 how long after
01:13:11.980 these revelations emerged
01:13:13.460 did they close them down?
01:13:13.680 Well,
01:13:14.040 then that would have been
01:13:15.040 Dr. Paul McHugh,
01:13:16.660 who was a,
01:13:17.760 is a,
01:13:19.520 you know,
01:13:20.360 a giant in this area.
01:13:22.140 And he had the wisdom
01:13:23.860 and the foresight,
01:13:26.100 you know,
01:13:26.360 to understand
01:13:27.040 what was going on.
01:13:28.340 He,
01:13:29.020 he,
01:13:29.800 there were some studies
01:13:31.500 that were done
01:13:32.080 that would follow up
01:13:33.220 on the individuals
01:13:35.180 who had the sex reassignment
01:13:36.960 to see how they were doing.
01:13:38.660 And those studies
01:13:39.740 showed that they were no,
01:13:41.500 they were,
01:13:41.920 they were,
01:13:42.300 they were still
01:13:43.060 really suffering.
01:13:44.620 They,
01:13:45.200 they weren't,
01:13:45.780 they hadn't necessarily,
01:13:47.140 necessarily benefited
01:13:49.660 from that surgery
01:13:50.980 and that sexual reassignment.
01:13:53.240 So,
01:13:53.940 and he wrote about that
01:13:55.040 in a great book,
01:13:56.060 Dr. Paul McHugh,
01:13:57.500 his book called
01:13:58.380 The Mind Has Mountains
01:13:59.400 and he wrote a chapter
01:14:00.980 called Surgical Sex,
01:14:02.960 explaining how
01:14:03.940 we would be wise
01:14:05.680 if we pay attention
01:14:06.920 to their psyches
01:14:08.000 and help them
01:14:09.500 emotionally
01:14:10.380 and psychologically
01:14:11.240 and not try
01:14:12.160 to change their bodies.
01:14:13.720 So,
01:14:14.100 Dr. McHugh
01:14:14.780 closed up
01:14:15.840 John Money's clinic.
01:14:17.520 That is true.
01:14:18.300 But,
01:14:18.900 you know what?
01:14:19.560 The harm was already done.
01:14:21.380 By the time
01:14:22.160 it became
01:14:23.320 public knowledge
01:14:24.740 and,
01:14:25.080 and actually it's not even
01:14:26.200 to this day
01:14:26.940 such public knowledge,
01:14:27.980 unfortunately,
01:14:29.500 when it became
01:14:32.180 public knowledge
01:14:33.060 and a book
01:14:33.860 was written
01:14:34.400 by John Colopinto
01:14:35.940 called
01:14:36.460 As Nature Made Him,
01:14:38.800 the boy that was raised
01:14:39.760 as a girl
01:14:40.380 and it just told
01:14:41.380 this entire story
01:14:43.660 from A to Z.
01:14:44.760 It's a shocking,
01:14:45.800 shocking story
01:14:46.620 and everyone should
01:14:48.280 read that book.
01:14:51.180 So,
01:14:51.860 by the time
01:14:52.560 that book came out
01:14:53.440 in 1999
01:14:54.060 or 2000,
01:14:56.220 it was already,
01:14:57.020 you know,
01:14:58.000 that theory
01:14:58.580 was already
01:14:59.280 baked into
01:15:00.580 sex education
01:15:02.720 and,
01:15:03.380 you know,
01:15:04.640 sociology
01:15:05.580 and,
01:15:06.460 and psychology
01:15:07.900 and not,
01:15:09.920 I mean,
01:15:10.320 look,
01:15:11.540 I have a book,
01:15:12.680 Dr. Peterson,
01:15:13.420 I have a book
01:15:14.020 that was published
01:15:14.660 in 1998
01:15:15.900 for kids.
01:15:19.480 I brought it with me,
01:15:20.800 show and tell.
01:15:21.380 this book came out.
01:15:27.060 It's called
01:15:27.800 My,
01:15:28.500 My Gender Workbook
01:15:31.080 and it has
01:15:33.760 on the cover,
01:15:36.360 if you see,
01:15:36.700 the picture here
01:15:37.460 is half,
01:15:38.440 half a Barbie
01:15:39.580 and half a Ken.
01:15:42.540 Uh-huh.
01:15:43.160 Okay.
01:15:43.960 Obviously,
01:15:44.760 a book for young people
01:15:45.940 and the entire
01:15:50.200 premise of this book
01:15:51.800 is that
01:15:53.280 the gender binary
01:15:55.960 is false,
01:15:59.360 that we are not,
01:16:01.720 we do not all fit
01:16:03.080 into this category
01:16:04.740 of male and female
01:16:06.020 and they're not talking
01:16:07.780 about hermaphrodites
01:16:09.020 or intersex,
01:16:10.120 okay?
01:16:11.340 They're talking
01:16:12.180 about none of us.
01:16:14.520 No one fits into it.
01:16:16.320 It's oppressive
01:16:17.320 and we need
01:16:19.180 to rebel against it.
01:16:21.000 So clearly
01:16:21.920 written by
01:16:22.860 the author
01:16:23.800 is Kate Bornstein,
01:16:25.760 an individual
01:16:26.340 who
01:16:27.040 has had
01:16:29.520 a very interesting
01:16:30.600 gender journey
01:16:32.320 going back
01:16:33.240 and forth,
01:16:33.980 born as a male,
01:16:34.940 then a female,
01:16:35.740 then back
01:16:36.300 and then neither.
01:16:37.720 And
01:16:38.080 this individual
01:16:40.100 Kate Bornstein
01:16:41.120 in 1998,
01:16:43.500 again,
01:16:43.880 I'm just,
01:16:44.320 I want to emphasize
01:16:45.060 how long ago
01:16:46.860 this book
01:16:48.180 was available
01:16:48.920 and written
01:16:50.040 for young people
01:16:51.700 to challenge them
01:16:54.080 and to
01:16:55.400 indoctrinate them
01:16:59.660 with the idea
01:17:00.520 that society
01:17:01.820 is placing
01:17:02.720 on you
01:17:03.660 these false
01:17:05.360 restrictions.
01:17:07.000 Society
01:17:07.440 is telling you
01:17:08.380 that you have
01:17:09.360 to be a boy
01:17:10.160 or a girl
01:17:10.700 and that
01:17:11.380 is
01:17:11.980 something
01:17:13.880 that is
01:17:14.420 it's like
01:17:15.140 racism.
01:17:16.180 It's like
01:17:17.080 sexism.
01:17:18.160 It's a terrible
01:17:18.920 thing.
01:17:19.720 It's patriarchal
01:17:20.960 oppression.
01:17:21.340 Yes,
01:17:21.620 and we have to
01:17:22.360 break
01:17:22.720 in its purest form.
01:17:24.440 So,
01:17:24.920 you know,
01:17:25.580 you have to
01:17:26.160 understand
01:17:26.800 that
01:17:27.700 this is
01:17:28.680 very enticing
01:17:29.880 for
01:17:31.160 teenagers
01:17:32.220 who
01:17:32.820 want to
01:17:33.740 believe in
01:17:34.420 something
01:17:34.780 and want
01:17:35.420 the world
01:17:35.920 to be a
01:17:36.380 better place
01:17:37.180 and they
01:17:38.000 want to
01:17:38.380 fight
01:17:38.780 against
01:17:39.220 something.
01:17:39.680 They want
01:17:39.940 to fight
01:17:40.320 against
01:17:40.620 the evil.
01:17:42.180 So,
01:17:42.900 this is
01:17:43.600 presented
01:17:44.020 as another
01:17:44.760 evil
01:17:45.280 that exists
01:17:46.140 in society.
01:17:47.040 So,
01:17:49.980 you know,
01:17:51.380 and this
01:17:51.720 book actually
01:17:52.900 was recommended
01:17:53.800 by,
01:17:56.960 oh gosh,
01:17:58.820 I'm going to
01:17:59.660 say,
01:18:00.300 I'm not
01:18:00.700 sure,
01:18:01.720 the American
01:18:02.220 Psychiatric
01:18:02.820 Association
01:18:03.560 or maybe
01:18:04.300 it was the
01:18:05.580 American
01:18:05.820 Psychological
01:18:06.560 Association,
01:18:07.720 one of those
01:18:08.800 major
01:18:09.840 professional
01:18:11.000 mental health
01:18:11.760 organizations
01:18:12.540 way before
01:18:14.640 the DSM
01:18:17.580 acknowledged
01:18:19.120 gender dysphoria
01:18:20.520 was not
01:18:21.320 a disorder.
01:18:22.060 So,
01:18:22.440 let me just
01:18:23.060 be clear.
01:18:24.020 A book
01:18:24.500 like this,
01:18:25.940 a book
01:18:26.780 like this
01:18:27.580 and an
01:18:28.460 individual
01:18:28.940 such as
01:18:29.960 Kate Bornstein
01:18:31.040 who had a
01:18:32.140 very active
01:18:32.840 schedule,
01:18:33.540 speaking on
01:18:34.180 campuses,
01:18:35.460 public
01:18:35.760 appearances,
01:18:37.440 you know,
01:18:38.240 all over the
01:18:38.900 place,
01:18:39.320 being made
01:18:40.160 into a
01:18:40.620 celebrity,
01:18:41.080 this is
01:18:43.200 all happening
01:18:44.120 at a
01:18:44.880 time when
01:18:45.900 psychiatry
01:18:47.200 still considered
01:18:48.320 this a
01:18:48.880 disorder.
01:18:50.080 I mean,
01:18:50.620 on paper.
01:18:52.280 On paper,
01:18:53.860 not identifying
01:18:55.200 as male
01:18:56.300 or female,
01:18:57.580 not identifying,
01:18:58.540 I'm sorry,
01:18:59.000 with your
01:18:59.400 biology in a
01:19:00.300 way that's
01:19:00.660 consistent with
01:19:01.320 your biology,
01:19:02.240 was still
01:19:03.120 called at
01:19:03.680 that time
01:19:04.160 a disorder.
01:19:06.020 Okay,
01:19:06.180 this is
01:19:06.600 1998.
01:19:08.560 The APA
01:19:09.520 only changed
01:19:10.380 the DSM
01:19:11.160 in 2013.
01:19:13.940 So this
01:19:14.500 is 15 years
01:19:15.640 before that.
01:19:17.100 So what
01:19:17.340 I'm trying
01:19:17.760 to say
01:19:18.220 is...
01:19:19.140 Now,
01:19:19.420 what happened
01:19:20.420 to David
01:19:21.020 Reimer?
01:19:22.000 What happened?
01:19:22.720 David Reimer
01:19:23.580 committed suicide
01:19:24.440 eventually,
01:19:25.000 didn't he?
01:19:26.260 Yeah.
01:19:27.860 Yeah.
01:19:28.240 Yes.
01:19:28.660 So that's
01:19:29.180 the denouement
01:19:30.140 of that
01:19:30.560 particularly
01:19:31.040 trial.
01:19:31.380 And his
01:19:32.360 twin...
01:19:32.880 So not only
01:19:33.560 was this a
01:19:34.160 failure,
01:19:34.660 it was a...
01:19:35.560 Go ahead.
01:19:36.720 Oh,
01:19:36.960 no.
01:19:37.200 It was a
01:19:38.280 disaster,
01:19:40.380 terrible disaster.
01:19:42.420 He committed
01:19:43.420 suicide,
01:19:44.540 and his
01:19:45.520 twin brother
01:19:46.360 died of an
01:19:47.980 opiate overdose
01:19:49.440 before him.
01:19:52.200 His twin
01:19:52.660 died first.
01:19:54.800 The entire
01:19:55.480 family was...
01:19:58.760 You know,
01:19:59.400 what...
01:19:59.660 What are the...
01:20:01.220 What kind of words?
01:20:02.420 I mean,
01:20:02.920 traumatized...
01:20:03.580 It's not enough.
01:20:05.220 Trauma is not
01:20:06.060 enough to
01:20:06.640 describe what
01:20:07.400 that family
01:20:08.020 went through.
01:20:09.020 My parents
01:20:09.640 didn't know
01:20:10.280 a lot that
01:20:10.800 was going on.
01:20:12.780 And if they
01:20:13.240 would have
01:20:13.500 known,
01:20:14.940 it would never
01:20:16.620 would have
01:20:16.900 happened.
01:20:18.020 By me not
01:20:18.660 saying anything,
01:20:20.900 the medical
01:20:21.500 community
01:20:22.120 was under
01:20:24.380 the impression
01:20:24.960 that my case
01:20:25.760 was a success
01:20:26.440 story.
01:20:28.200 And I was
01:20:28.760 shocked when
01:20:29.780 I heard that
01:20:30.500 people thought
01:20:31.360 that my case
01:20:32.520 was a success
01:20:33.200 story.
01:20:34.400 So what we
01:20:35.620 should point
01:20:36.060 out here
01:20:36.520 is that
01:20:37.060 this experiment
01:20:39.000 couldn't possibly
01:20:40.080 have gone more
01:20:40.980 cataclysmically
01:20:41.800 wrong than it
01:20:42.580 did.
01:20:43.560 Not only was
01:20:44.300 what Money was
01:20:44.940 saying was not
01:20:45.980 true in the
01:20:46.760 technical scientific
01:20:47.520 sense,
01:20:48.180 it was an
01:20:48.800 anti-truth and
01:20:49.800 he falsified the
01:20:50.840 data and it
01:20:51.800 culminated in the
01:20:52.980 death of two
01:20:53.700 people, the
01:20:54.340 demolition of a
01:20:55.100 family and the
01:20:56.060 perversion of an
01:20:56.880 entire culture.
01:20:58.280 That's John
01:20:59.140 Money's legacy.
01:21:00.600 He never
01:21:01.100 publicly
01:21:02.540 acknowledged it.
01:21:04.400 He never
01:21:05.580 publicly
01:21:06.120 acknowledged that
01:21:07.580 the twins had
01:21:09.040 well that one
01:21:10.520 of the, I
01:21:11.480 don't know what
01:21:11.940 the, John
01:21:12.620 Money died I
01:21:13.280 think in 2006
01:21:14.680 and I think he
01:21:15.480 had dementia.
01:21:16.680 But when the
01:21:17.640 book came out
01:21:18.420 and when John
01:21:19.900 Colapinto's book
01:21:20.780 came out that
01:21:21.460 just like exposed
01:21:23.060 this whole calamity,
01:21:24.500 there was nothing
01:21:25.640 from John Money.
01:21:26.740 He was still
01:21:27.620 alive.
01:21:28.400 He could have
01:21:29.100 made a statement.
01:21:30.980 Nothing.
01:21:31.540 I'm just saying
01:21:33.220 that that's just
01:21:33.860 another, you
01:21:35.340 know, indication
01:21:37.120 of what the
01:21:38.660 morality, the
01:21:39.520 immorality of
01:21:40.420 this person and
01:21:41.420 the, you know,
01:21:42.660 the lack of
01:21:44.220 acknowledgement,
01:21:45.920 you know, of
01:21:46.860 what they're
01:21:47.940 guilty of doing.
01:21:49.100 I mean, you know,
01:21:49.560 I guess it's too
01:21:50.140 much to expect.
01:21:51.460 Well, you were
01:21:52.020 making a case a
01:21:53.540 bit, you were
01:21:55.180 making a case a
01:21:55.980 bit that part of
01:21:56.660 the reason the
01:21:57.220 psychiatric and
01:21:58.020 psychological
01:21:58.540 professions, the
01:21:59.380 medical professions
01:22:00.140 did tilt in this
01:22:01.900 gender-affirming
01:22:02.660 direction was
01:22:03.780 because money's
01:22:04.680 research was
01:22:05.680 taken as gold
01:22:06.500 standard and
01:22:07.840 the pathology of
01:22:09.180 that research
01:22:09.720 wasn't revealed
01:22:10.460 until like 25
01:22:11.660 years later.
01:22:12.500 And so that
01:22:12.920 excuses the
01:22:13.860 profession to
01:22:14.440 some degree.
01:22:15.280 But by your
01:22:16.280 testimony as well,
01:22:17.680 all of this
01:22:18.240 started to become
01:22:18.980 pretty public
01:22:19.700 knowledge by
01:22:20.380 about the year
01:22:20.980 2000 that the
01:22:22.000 money experiment
01:22:22.560 had actually gone
01:22:23.320 cataclysmically
01:22:24.080 wrong.
01:22:24.920 And yet what
01:22:25.380 we've seen on
01:22:26.520 the psychological,
01:22:27.700 psychiatric, and
01:22:28.400 counseling front,
01:22:29.300 medical as well,
01:22:30.240 is a doubling down
01:22:31.360 of the insistence
01:22:32.900 that gender is
01:22:33.960 nothing but
01:22:34.500 something that's
01:22:35.140 socialized and
01:22:35.960 that medical
01:22:36.460 transition is the
01:22:37.400 appropriate move.
01:22:38.560 Okay, so that's
01:22:40.680 all flying in the
01:22:41.620 face of evidence
01:22:42.480 now instead of
01:22:43.300 being supported by
01:22:44.220 evidence.
01:22:44.840 And so, do you
01:22:47.180 have any thoughts
01:22:47.740 about...
01:22:48.140 Yeah, but not
01:22:48.620 only that, not
01:22:49.820 only that, it
01:22:50.600 became more and
01:22:51.720 more and more
01:22:52.300 radical.
01:22:53.740 So where we are
01:22:54.640 today and where
01:22:55.760 we are, I mean,
01:22:56.800 even this book in
01:22:57.860 1998 is much
01:22:59.780 more radical than
01:23:00.860 John Money.
01:23:01.880 This, at least
01:23:02.600 John Money said,
01:23:04.080 you know, you're
01:23:04.580 either male or
01:23:05.320 female and that
01:23:06.280 you need and
01:23:06.860 that that's fixed
01:23:07.600 by the age of
01:23:08.400 three.
01:23:09.940 Okay, by
01:23:10.920 1998, kids were
01:23:12.900 being told, no,
01:23:14.220 no, no, no,
01:23:14.600 that's an
01:23:15.620 oppressive false
01:23:16.660 binary.
01:23:17.540 It's all on a
01:23:18.680 spectrum.
01:23:19.400 It's all fluid.
01:23:21.340 And it's fluid for
01:23:22.860 your entire life.
01:23:23.980 And it's
01:23:26.040 wonderful to
01:23:27.000 explore and to
01:23:28.800 question, and no
01:23:30.080 one can tell you
01:23:30.820 who you are, and
01:23:32.100 just a million
01:23:32.860 different ways.
01:23:33.840 It's so much more
01:23:35.160 radical.
01:23:36.360 I mean, I wish
01:23:37.280 almost, you know,
01:23:38.140 that we were back
01:23:38.920 with John Money's
01:23:40.360 theory because it
01:23:41.440 would be so easy
01:23:42.520 to, you know,
01:23:44.840 defeat...
01:23:46.400 It's so easy now.
01:23:48.900 We have so much
01:23:49.960 information from
01:23:51.520 hard science.
01:23:53.200 In fact, if John
01:23:54.140 Money were living
01:23:54.800 today, he could
01:23:56.160 never get published
01:23:58.580 with such a theory
01:23:59.500 that he had about
01:24:00.240 gender and biology.
01:24:02.100 I mean, it's
01:24:03.480 ridiculous.
01:24:04.440 We have too much
01:24:05.460 information about
01:24:06.380 the impact of
01:24:07.560 the chromosomes
01:24:09.000 prenatally and,
01:24:11.640 you know, the
01:24:12.920 impact of
01:24:14.360 hormones.
01:24:15.460 So we know
01:24:16.460 now that men
01:24:17.560 and male and
01:24:18.380 female, you know,
01:24:19.160 it's not only
01:24:19.700 different genitalia,
01:24:22.360 not only what
01:24:23.180 John Money pointed
01:24:24.000 out, you know,
01:24:24.900 lactating and
01:24:25.660 menstruating.
01:24:26.520 We have each
01:24:28.140 cell in our
01:24:29.080 bodies, except
01:24:30.940 for cells that
01:24:32.140 don't have a
01:24:32.580 nucleus, which are
01:24:33.280 very few, but
01:24:34.720 every cell that
01:24:35.480 has a nucleus is
01:24:36.840 stamped male or
01:24:37.920 female, and it
01:24:39.020 makes a difference.
01:24:40.240 Right.
01:24:41.100 Okay, so there's
01:24:41.840 a female heart.
01:24:43.680 You know, we
01:24:44.800 know now in
01:24:45.520 cardiology that when
01:24:47.440 it comes to, for
01:24:48.140 example, arrhythmias,
01:24:49.640 there's a difference
01:24:50.760 in the type of
01:24:51.800 arrhythmias that a
01:24:53.060 woman might get
01:24:53.740 as opposed to a
01:24:54.960 man.
01:24:55.520 There's a difference
01:24:56.540 in the way that a
01:24:58.940 woman who sustains a
01:25:00.900 very difficult
01:25:02.220 burn, how her
01:25:04.440 body might react to
01:25:05.600 it, as opposed to
01:25:06.420 a man.
01:25:07.280 And this is true
01:25:08.220 for every system
01:25:09.540 of the body.
01:25:12.240 So your point is
01:25:14.440 that not only do
01:25:15.540 you see a gender
01:25:17.400 difference, a sex
01:25:18.380 difference, at the
01:25:19.360 chromosomal level, but
01:25:20.380 you see it at the
01:25:21.080 cellular level, and
01:25:22.020 you see it at the
01:25:22.760 level of systems of
01:25:24.400 cells, so organs.
01:25:25.960 You see it at the
01:25:26.880 level of broad
01:25:27.640 physiology.
01:25:28.620 We talked about
01:25:29.160 lactation and
01:25:29.920 menstruation and
01:25:30.680 gestation.
01:25:31.760 But there's the
01:25:32.160 entire menstrual
01:25:33.040 cycle.
01:25:33.540 There's the
01:25:33.860 completely different
01:25:34.700 effect of hormones.
01:25:35.960 All of that
01:25:36.400 manifests itself in
01:25:37.520 different perceptual
01:25:38.380 patterns and in
01:25:39.160 temperamental patterns
01:25:40.040 that are sex-type to a
01:25:41.260 large degree.
01:25:42.480 And so the point
01:25:43.320 here is that what
01:25:44.400 constitutes sex is
01:25:46.040 instantiated as part
01:25:47.440 of identity at every
01:25:48.600 single level of the
01:25:49.640 hierarchies that people
01:25:50.500 are embedded in,
01:25:51.540 biologically and then
01:25:52.800 also socially, because
01:25:54.660 the social roles that
01:25:55.840 are assigned to men and
01:25:56.740 women are not merely
01:25:58.240 arbitrary, right?
01:25:59.600 I mean, part of what
01:26:00.680 you see with parents is
01:26:01.860 that the manner in
01:26:03.300 which parents socialize
01:26:04.700 their children is much
01:26:05.700 more directed by the
01:26:06.720 children than people
01:26:07.540 had originally
01:26:08.180 presupposed.
01:26:09.600 And so parents who
01:26:11.540 are establishing a
01:26:13.780 genuine relationship
01:26:15.240 with their children
01:26:16.180 use the cues from
01:26:18.000 the child's behavior
01:26:19.080 to govern their
01:26:19.960 interactions with the
01:26:20.860 child.
01:26:21.260 And so more feminine
01:26:22.620 girls tend to be
01:26:23.540 treated by their
01:26:25.060 parents as more
01:26:26.060 feminine creatures
01:26:26.840 and more masculine
01:26:27.680 boys, etc.
01:26:28.780 But the idea that
01:26:30.480 that's all top-down
01:26:31.680 socialization instead of
01:26:33.360 bottom-up influence of
01:26:34.480 biology is utterly
01:26:35.900 preposterous, even
01:26:37.420 though human beings are
01:26:38.860 quite flexible in the
01:26:40.020 manner in which they
01:26:40.740 can be socialized.
01:26:42.820 Well, the thing is,
01:26:44.380 kids are being led to
01:26:45.620 believe and parents are
01:26:46.960 being led to believe
01:26:48.060 that you can step in
01:26:50.000 with these very powerful
01:26:51.800 medications, these
01:26:52.840 hormones, and you can
01:26:55.380 deny biology, and you
01:26:57.280 can pause biology, and
01:26:59.900 you can create a persona
01:27:03.880 of the opposite sex
01:27:05.540 without paying a huge
01:27:08.460 price.
01:27:10.020 That is the lie that's
01:27:11.460 being told, that you're
01:27:13.400 not going to pay a price
01:27:14.620 for this.
01:27:15.640 Oh, yeah, there might be
01:27:16.520 a few side effects.
01:27:17.640 No, no, no, no.
01:27:18.500 You mean like a whole
01:27:19.280 missing forearm, for
01:27:20.560 example, and a penis that
01:27:21.820 doesn't work, and
01:27:22.720 sterility, and lowered
01:27:24.200 voice, and decreased
01:27:26.340 bone density, and the
01:27:27.620 increased probability of
01:27:29.100 the development of cancer,
01:27:30.260 and no evidence
01:27:30.960 whatsoever that there's
01:27:32.040 any mental health
01:27:33.200 benefit, and all the
01:27:34.400 trauma that you put your
01:27:35.860 family through, and all
01:27:36.700 the regret that's going
01:27:37.740 to emerge later in life
01:27:38.940 when you find out that
01:27:39.840 you're sterile, no
01:27:41.060 ability to breastfeed,
01:27:42.420 and complete loss of
01:27:43.600 erotic sensation in the
01:27:45.240 nipples, and et cetera,
01:27:47.020 et cetera.
01:27:47.480 You mean those risks?
01:27:48.640 Those trivial, by-the-wayside
01:27:50.780 risks that are completely
01:27:52.260 ignorable, given all the
01:27:53.500 euphoria you're going to
01:27:54.800 experience when you put
01:27:56.200 yourself in the hands of
01:27:57.700 liars and butchers?
01:27:58.900 You mean that story?
01:27:59.740 Okay, so this is what
01:28:00.960 parents don't know that
01:28:03.280 they must understand, and
01:28:05.960 they have to understand
01:28:06.800 this before their kid
01:28:08.760 comes home and says,
01:28:10.140 Mom, I'm not your
01:28:11.700 daughter, I'm your son.
01:28:12.800 They need to know this way
01:28:14.520 before that happens, and
01:28:16.820 that's what I want to do
01:28:17.660 for them.
01:28:18.660 Yeah.
01:28:19.560 Now, look, the way that
01:28:22.060 the legacy media and the
01:28:24.180 left-wing activists react to
01:28:26.140 a conversation such as
01:28:27.660 ours is to point out that
01:28:29.840 we're scaremongering and
01:28:31.760 that this doesn't really
01:28:33.500 pose a threat to, let's
01:28:35.120 say, the vast majority of
01:28:36.280 people, and it's of much
01:28:37.240 more help to the small
01:28:38.440 minority that it's aimed
01:28:39.520 at than it is harm, and
01:28:41.220 that what we're doing is
01:28:42.420 stirring up fear and
01:28:43.820 gaslighting and, you know,
01:28:44.800 all the sorts of defensive
01:28:46.380 maneuvers that the radicals
01:28:48.220 engage in.
01:28:49.300 So why do you think it's
01:28:51.260 necessary for all parents,
01:28:53.360 and so this isn't just
01:28:54.220 parents who have kids with
01:28:55.440 gender dysphoria, why do
01:28:57.120 you think it's necessary for
01:28:58.440 all parents to be a
01:28:59.840 what would you say, aware
01:29:01.400 of what's going on in the
01:29:02.520 schools, and why do you
01:29:03.960 think that that's of
01:29:04.800 sufficient widespread
01:29:05.940 concern so that your
01:29:07.460 concerns shouldn't be just
01:29:09.060 dismissed as
01:29:09.940 conspiratorial delusion,
01:29:12.500 let's say?
01:29:13.200 Well, first of all, let's
01:29:14.700 look at the numbers just in
01:29:17.260 the past five years, ten
01:29:19.940 years, of this explosive
01:29:22.120 growth of individuals who
01:29:26.120 are coming in for treatment
01:29:27.840 for gender dysphoria, so
01:29:29.640 there is a hysteria that
01:29:31.100 we're in the midst of.
01:29:34.100 You know, it's a wave, it's
01:29:35.980 a tsunami.
01:29:37.000 I hope that we're at the
01:29:38.760 crest of the wave right now,
01:29:40.440 but we could just be at the
01:29:41.520 beginning.
01:29:42.900 I mean, you know, just ten
01:29:44.340 years ago, we had rates of,
01:29:47.520 you know, one in ten to thirty
01:29:51.080 to a hundred thousand people
01:29:52.840 with this particular disorder.
01:29:56.380 We didn't even have numbers.
01:29:58.260 It was so rare, let's say
01:30:00.600 twenty years ago, it was so
01:30:02.160 rare for a teenager to present
01:30:04.800 as opposed to a little kid or
01:30:06.800 an older person.
01:30:08.540 It was so rare for, I mean,
01:30:10.780 even they were rare, but it was
01:30:12.900 even more rare for an adolescent
01:30:15.320 to suddenly come out with this
01:30:19.020 new identity and with gender
01:30:20.420 dysphoria.
01:30:21.620 So, those people were so rare
01:30:24.660 just ten, fifteen years ago,
01:30:26.400 and now we have studies showing,
01:30:28.900 you know, ten percent, twenty
01:30:31.420 percent of a high school class
01:30:33.260 in an urban high school might
01:30:35.180 identify as not being male or
01:30:37.220 female.
01:30:38.100 So, I don't know where this is
01:30:39.780 going.
01:30:40.320 Is it, you know, is it going to
01:30:41.980 forty percent?
01:30:43.900 That's why parents have to be
01:30:45.400 aware of this.
01:30:46.380 I would also say, in terms of
01:30:49.020 fear-mongering, you know, the
01:30:50.160 charge of fear-mongering, and
01:30:51.740 it's really only a minority of
01:30:53.720 people who are going to suffer,
01:30:55.800 we have no data whatsoever to
01:30:59.560 support that, no long-term data
01:31:01.580 whatsoever.
01:31:02.520 The data that we do have shows
01:31:05.340 us that the regret over this,
01:31:09.240 you know, massive life change and
01:31:11.480 these surgeries might take eight
01:31:13.760 to ten years to develop.
01:31:14.940 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:31:17.700 Yeah, and I would add that not
01:31:21.880 only does it take time to
01:31:24.320 develop, it takes time to
01:31:27.020 acknowledge it and to come out
01:31:29.320 with it publicly.
01:31:33.580 And the research that we do have...
01:31:35.640 So, do you have any advice?
01:31:38.320 I was going to say that those
01:31:39.700 people that regret it, they're not
01:31:42.000 going back to the clinics and
01:31:43.380 telling them, there's no one
01:31:44.600 keeping the statistics on them.
01:31:47.240 They're not coming back to their
01:31:48.660 doctors and saying, how did you do
01:31:50.500 this to me?
01:31:51.620 They can't sue, it's too late.
01:31:55.960 Yeah, yeah.
01:31:57.940 So, why have you got away with it?
01:31:59.800 I mean, you know, people are
01:32:01.160 cancelled pretty hard, and it's
01:32:03.000 really devastating for people to be
01:32:04.760 cancelled.
01:32:05.220 Like, I've seen, I know about 200
01:32:07.120 people who've been mobbed for
01:32:08.920 expressing opinions that aren't in
01:32:10.920 accordance with the radical leftist
01:32:12.580 ideology.
01:32:13.700 Most people respond to that being
01:32:15.360 mobbed and excluded as if they've
01:32:17.320 contracted a pretty damn serious
01:32:18.940 illness, you know.
01:32:20.020 I've seen very...
01:32:21.040 Well, Jay Bhattacharya, the
01:32:22.360 physician from Stanford who was
01:32:24.180 mobbed for his views on COVID, he
01:32:26.200 lost 35 pounds in three months when
01:32:28.400 Stanford basically turned its back
01:32:30.280 on him.
01:32:30.660 And I've seen my colleagues hounded
01:32:32.700 into, well, into asylums in some
01:32:35.140 circumstances as a consequence of
01:32:36.860 this.
01:32:37.340 Now, you've been standing up against
01:32:39.600 this for a long time, and you
01:32:41.460 dared to go on Mount Walsh's
01:32:43.180 documentary, which was, you know,
01:32:45.140 quite the provocative move.
01:32:47.320 What is a woman?
01:32:48.940 Can you tell me that?
01:32:53.020 Well, you're at the Women's March,
01:32:54.080 you must have some idea.
01:32:54.900 Please, if one person could tell me
01:32:56.540 what a woman it is.
01:32:57.140 You are not here for women!
01:32:58.860 We ask you to leave!
01:33:00.220 What is that?
01:33:02.220 Why is it that you've been able to
01:33:04.180 get away with this, so to speak,
01:33:06.640 and to be able to withstand it?
01:33:08.180 What's different in your case, do
01:33:09.620 you think?
01:33:10.040 Oh, no, I've paid a price.
01:33:12.520 Oh, I've certainly paid a price.
01:33:15.700 Years ago, when I worked at UCLA,
01:33:18.920 my first book came out in 2008
01:33:21.760 called Unprotected, and I challenged
01:33:25.720 the political correctness of what
01:33:27.960 was going on in that student health
01:33:29.800 clinic.
01:33:31.020 Oh, I paid a very heavy price.
01:33:34.220 I was shunned.
01:33:35.040 People who I thought were my friends
01:33:37.380 stopped talking to me.
01:33:39.280 After 11 years of very high, you know,
01:33:43.200 positive annual reviews of my work,
01:33:47.220 suddenly, after my book came out,
01:33:49.160 I got a negative review.
01:33:52.140 And eventually, I had to leave.
01:33:54.180 I left because I became,
01:33:56.460 I was marginalized.
01:33:57.280 So why did you continue?
01:34:00.900 Why didn't that stop you?
01:34:02.600 I mean, look, people often apologize,
01:34:04.600 right?
01:34:04.800 They apologize and they backpedal.
01:34:06.620 And you continued moving forward
01:34:09.120 despite the fact that you were facing
01:34:10.940 substantial opposition for your views.
01:34:12.900 Like, why do you, because this is rare.
01:34:15.460 This is why I'm concentrating on it.
01:34:17.020 You know, lots of psychiatrists and
01:34:19.180 psychologists and counselors know perfectly
01:34:21.220 well that the sorts of things that we've
01:34:23.360 been discussing today are 100% true.
01:34:27.000 They know it, but they will not stand up
01:34:29.620 and say it.
01:34:30.360 Now, you did and you got punished for it.
01:34:32.360 Why didn't you apologize and quit?
01:34:34.240 Okay.
01:34:34.560 I think there are two reasons.
01:34:36.520 I'm going to say, number one,
01:34:38.560 is that my parents were Holocaust survivors.
01:34:42.060 And all of my grandparents and a good bit
01:34:46.220 a good bit of both sides of the family
01:34:49.100 were exterminated, were victims of the Holocaust.
01:34:55.880 So I understand tyranny and I understand lies
01:34:59.640 and I understand when dangerous people
01:35:03.960 stand up and say falsehoods
01:35:06.960 and they are followed out of fear and intimidation.
01:35:13.100 I understand that too well.
01:35:16.220 And I would say the other reason is that
01:35:18.660 I'm a person of faith, deep faith,
01:35:22.260 and I believe that there are eternal truths.
01:35:27.380 And I believe that part of why I'm here in the world
01:35:32.140 is to stand up in my small way when I can
01:35:38.740 to stand up for truth and to protect
01:35:44.080 especially young people and their families
01:35:47.140 from this terrible darkness of lies.
01:35:52.240 Okay.
01:35:53.120 Okay.
01:35:53.780 Well, that's a good place to end, Dr. Grossman,
01:35:56.560 I would say.
01:35:57.860 Thank you very much for agreeing to talk to me
01:36:00.520 on YouTube today and its associated platforms.
01:36:03.240 For everybody watching and listening,
01:36:05.840 Dr. Grossman, I'll just remind you,
01:36:07.900 has wrote a book called
01:36:09.020 You're Teaching My Children What?
01:36:10.700 back in 2009 and a new one coming out very soon,
01:36:14.400 Lost in Transnation,
01:36:16.180 A Child Psychiatrist's Guide Out of the Madness.
01:36:18.680 She also appeared on Matt Walsh's documentary,
01:36:21.480 What is a Woman?
01:36:22.080 which is where I encountered her work.
01:36:25.300 I'm going to talk to Dr. Grossman
01:36:27.540 for another half an hour
01:36:28.440 on the Daily Wire Plus platform.
01:36:30.280 Those of you who would like to hear
01:36:32.000 the continuation of this conversation
01:36:33.780 in a slightly different direction
01:36:35.320 are more than welcome to do so.
01:36:36.980 Show some support for the Daily Wire Plus people
01:36:39.900 who've also facilitated this conversation
01:36:42.280 and many like it.
01:36:43.960 For all of you who are watching and listening,
01:36:46.040 your time and attention is not taken for granted.
01:36:48.220 It's certainly appreciated.
01:36:49.240 And to Dr. Grossman,
01:36:51.100 well, thank you very much
01:36:51.920 for agreeing to talk to me today
01:36:53.140 and for, well, telling all the stories
01:36:55.320 you told to everybody who's listening.
01:36:56.880 I'm sure there are many parents out there
01:36:58.880 who are tearing their hair out
01:37:00.640 in utter desperation,
01:37:02.060 who desperately need something approximating
01:37:04.520 the runes of a life raft to cling to.
01:37:07.120 And at least you can provide some evidence
01:37:09.380 that not every psychiatrist and counselor
01:37:11.580 in the entire bloody country
01:37:13.280 or the West for that matter
01:37:14.780 has gone stark raving mad
01:37:16.420 and become cowardly and delusional.
01:37:18.480 And so we much appreciated on that front.
01:37:21.540 And I do think the tide is turning.
01:37:23.500 The closure of the Tavistock Clinic in the UK
01:37:25.520 is a big deal,
01:37:27.020 especially given the bombshell revelations
01:37:29.140 that emerged in the aftermath.
01:37:31.000 And as you said,
01:37:32.220 the Scandinavians and the Brits
01:37:33.700 have adopted a much more sensible stance
01:37:37.060 and comparatively rapidly.
01:37:38.980 And so I can't see that the US and Canada,
01:37:41.800 Australia, New Zealand
01:37:42.740 can withstand that for very long.
01:37:44.480 So we'll pray, you know,
01:37:46.700 that all this butchery and lies
01:37:48.620 starts to come to an end relatively quickly.
01:37:51.460 And then if it does,
01:37:52.300 well, you've played some cardinal role in that.
01:37:54.420 So hooray for that.
01:37:56.360 Thank you.
01:37:58.920 You bet.
01:37:59.620 All right, everyone.
01:38:00.820 We'll see you, well,
01:38:02.320 on the next YouTube discussion
01:38:04.700 or on the Daily Wire Plus platform.
01:38:07.700 Ciao.
01:38:09.400 Hello, everyone.
01:38:10.720 I would encourage you to continue
01:38:12.020 listening to my conversation
01:38:13.680 with my guest on dailywireplus.com.
01:38:17.260 and I'll see you next time.