The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 356. Narcissists, Frauds, and Enablers： Trans Women and Women's Sports ｜ Riley Gaines

00:00:00.940 Hey everyone, real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious and important.

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00:00:57.420 Today I'm speaking with American athlete, top ranking swimmer, and now campaigner for genuine female rights, Riley Gaines.

00:01:18.740 In our conversation, we're going to cover her career thus far, how she's navigated leadership positions in female sports,

00:01:27.000 and otherwise, how those sports have been co-opted by men claiming to be women,

00:01:32.480 the ideological capture therein, and of course, her recent experiences at San Francisco State University.

00:01:40.620 Hi, Riley. I understand that it's about four in the morning there in Nashville.

00:01:46.360 I'm in Portugal, so, you know, time zone trouble.

00:01:49.820 It's real good of you to stay up so damn late and agree to talk to me and to everybody else here.

00:01:55.080 So, let's start with this.

00:01:57.700 Let's talk a little bit about your life over the last couple of years.

00:02:01.800 Like, what does your life consist of?

00:02:03.300 I presume you're studying and you're aiming at something.

00:02:06.000 You're also an athlete.

00:02:07.040 So, tell me what, how your life should be, let's say, and what you're aiming at and how your life actually is.

00:02:16.100 And then we'll start talking about what happened to you most recently at San Francisco State.

00:02:20.420 Absolutely.

00:02:21.940 Yeah, yeah.

00:02:22.520 So, what have you been up to the last few years while you were, you know, pursuing the pathway, let's say, of a normal person?

00:02:29.920 I had every intention of finishing my collegiate career of swimming, graduating, and going to dental school.

00:02:36.080 So, that's always been my passion, was dentistry.

00:02:40.300 Specifically, I wanted to be an endodontist, which is someone who performs root canals, essentially.

00:02:45.760 I graduated with a degree in human health sciences and health law from the University of Kentucky.

00:02:50.580 I was set to be in dental school this year.

00:02:53.820 But with everything that really happened, and I know we'll dive into that, I decided, I really realized that dental school, that's something that will always be there.

00:03:03.620 But the relevance and the importance behind the issue we're going to talk about, it's not going to always be there.

00:03:09.620 And I understood if someone with the same powerful testimony that I have, the same voice, someone who's unafraid to speak the truth, doesn't stick up for this.

00:03:20.960 I really just saw what's at stake.

00:03:23.640 And so, I put my life on hold for a year.

00:03:26.500 I've reapplied for dental school in the fall, set to go to the University of Tennessee, but I'm still kind of wavering with the idea of if that's right for me at this time.

00:03:37.320 Right, right.

00:03:38.080 Okay, so let's talk a little bit about, well, your performance as a student, but then also your athletic career.

00:03:46.580 So, what makes you, let's say, what makes you a credible competitive swimmer?

00:03:52.220 And then off of that, what makes you a credible voice for, let's say, athletes in general, but for female athletes in particular?

00:04:01.140 So, how good an athlete are you?

00:04:02.900 What's your record?

00:04:04.100 And, you know, what are your credentials?

00:04:06.680 So, I've accomplished some really amazing things that I'm really proud of over my career.

00:04:12.060 I qualified for Olympic trials in 2016.

00:04:15.840 I was only 15 years old at the time, so I was one of the youngest ones there, again in 2020, to which translated into 2021 because of COVID and such.

00:04:25.020 I have won five SEC championships.

00:04:28.480 I'm a 12-time NCAA All-American.

00:04:32.220 Let's see, I'm the SEC record holder in the Turner Butterfly, which means…

00:04:35.780 And what is that?

00:04:36.400 That's SEC, did you say?

00:04:38.120 Yes, that's the Southeastern Conference, which is the most powerful conference, in my opinion.

00:04:44.120 Of course, I'm biased.

00:04:45.580 But I am the SEC record holder in the Turner Butterfly, which means under this shirt I have really big shoulders that I try to cover with my hair,

00:04:54.640 making me one of the fastest Americans of all time, making me one of the fastest Americans of all time in the event.

00:04:59.240 So, I've really done some incredible things that I will forever be proud of.

00:05:05.220 These are memories I can always look back on.

00:05:07.820 And I think that's what gives me the credibility that allows me to use my voice and be heard.

00:05:18.140 is the fact that I have firsthand experience competing against a male.

00:05:23.000 I got to personally witness and experience the injustice that we face.

00:05:31.280 I felt the effect that this infringement had on myself and my teammates and how this affected us, how it affected our performance, how it affected our health, our mental health,

00:05:40.980 and what that looked like from our perspective as female athletes who were directly impacted. 0.54

00:05:46.360 The content I've created over the past year represents some of my best to date,

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00:05:56.720 and experienced a nice increment in production quality, courtesy of Daily Wire Plus.

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00:06:35.000 Voices of reason and resistance are few and far between these strange days.

00:06:39.760 Click on the link below if you want to learn more.

00:06:43.140 And thank you for watching and listening.

00:06:44.580 Okay, so let's delve into, people aren't going to know this,

00:07:01.480 so you were competing at extremely high level on the athletic front,

00:07:07.780 and, you know, I've worked with some stellar athletes as a clinician,

00:07:12.940 and I've worked with lots of people who were at the top of their game professionally, let's say,

00:07:18.180 and usually what that takes on the professional front is something like,

00:07:24.060 well, extreme ability, extreme native ability in whatever area happens to be under consideration,

00:07:30.080 and then dedication that goes above and beyond the norm.

00:07:34.540 And so the typical great scientist, for example, is absolutely 100% obsessed with what they do.

00:07:42.240 It's a 16-hour-a-day job, essentially seven days a week, generally for decades.

00:07:48.240 It's the only way that you get to the top of a profession, let's say, or an endeavor,

00:07:53.220 that has any degree of rank order by merit and competitiveness, right?

00:07:58.800 You have to be as able as anyone else or more able,

00:08:01.900 but then you have to be dedicated beyond, well, far beyond the norm,

00:08:05.400 because otherwise you're not going to be at the top.

00:08:06.960 So when did you start swimming, and what did you have to do on the discipline front?

00:08:13.840 And also, I suppose, what sacrifices did your family make to make that possible

00:08:17.700 so that you could compete at this level?

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00:09:55.460 So I started swimming when I was four years old.

00:10:00.600 I am 22, so I've dedicated 18 years of my life to my sport.

00:10:08.660 By the time I was eight years old, that's when I really started, I transitioned to swimming year-round.

00:10:13.660 So this meant that in second grade, you're swimming two hours every single day, and it really only gets harder from there.

00:10:20.340 Because by the time you get to middle school and high school, you're practicing before school.

00:10:24.920 Then you go straight to school, and straight from school, you go back to practice.

00:10:29.260 After practice, you go home, you eat your dinner, you do your homework, you ice your shoulder, you go to bed.

00:10:35.200 But you wake up and do it all again the next day.

00:10:37.640 And I love what you said about being willing.

00:10:40.100 No one forced us to do this, but we knew that's what you had to do to compete at that top level.

00:10:47.200 I was very blessed.

00:10:48.560 Why in the world did you do it?

00:10:50.940 I mean, you know, there's a lot—well, first of all, it's a very focal application of time and energy over a very long period of time, right?

00:10:59.940 And you could argue that, well, there's many things to do in life, and why concentrate so obsessively on that single thing?

00:11:08.480 What was it about your family, your situation, your psychology, or your ability that made this attractive to you?

00:11:15.920 Why did you spend so much time and energy on this?

00:11:20.460 I think a couple things.

00:11:21.800 I come from a family of athletes.

00:11:23.940 My dad, he was an SEC football player and went on to play in the NFL.

00:11:27.560 All of my uncles were—they played in the NFL for 10-plus years.

00:11:32.380 They've won Super Bowls, done really incredible things.

00:11:35.300 My youngest brother, he's in college playing football.

00:11:37.340 My mom, she was a Division I softball player. 0.95

00:11:39.560 So I think sports is something that I've always been almost infatuated by.

00:11:45.420 And it's weird because swimming, of course, it's—there's not necessarily a good word to describe it other than it's treacherous.

00:11:53.680 It's miserable, but in the best way.

00:11:55.860 So it is an interesting dynamic.

00:11:57.860 It is truly this love-hate relationship.

00:12:00.780 You love the team.

00:12:02.000 I love setting goals.

00:12:03.000 I love achieving goals.

00:12:03.880 I loved winning.

00:12:05.520 And in a sense, I loved practicing.

00:12:08.460 Of course, it's painful.

00:12:09.500 It's hard.

00:12:09.860 You wake up at 5 a.m. to go swim three hours right before you go to class all day.

00:12:15.300 There's a lot of, I'll say, negatives that go into competing and training at this level.

00:12:23.020 But the positives, they outweigh the negatives tenfold.

00:12:27.620 There's no better feeling than achieving your goal, winning.

00:12:31.900 I think I'm this person who's driven.

00:12:34.440 I'm competitive.

00:12:35.540 And I think a lot of that stems from my family, from growing up with three siblings.

00:12:41.500 We were always on each other's backs.

00:12:44.100 But it's a blessing.

00:12:45.320 I'm very fortunate for really how I grew up and how my parents raised me.

00:12:51.000 Okay, so there was a lot of value in your family placed on athletic accomplishment.

00:12:55.660 But then also on—you talked about two fundamental sources of motivation.

00:13:00.100 And I would say both of those sources of motivation have come under heavy criticism in recent years.

00:13:08.560 The pleasure that you take, let's say, in achieving goals, that's associated with ambition. 0.87

00:13:13.680 And as our culture has been torn apart by this current state of ideological idiocy,

00:13:21.920 people have done everything they can to identify ambition, or let's say that desire for achievement, 0.95

00:13:30.140 both with ambition and with dominance and with power.

00:13:33.160 And then you also make a case for enjoying winning, you know.

00:13:38.680 And there are movements in the education field that have been, you know, bandied about probably for a century,

00:13:44.560 but particularly since the 1960s, predicated on the insistence that all competition is intrinsically wrong

00:13:51.240 and that any endeavor that requires the victory of one and the defeat of many, let's say,

00:13:57.120 which is typically the case, is somehow inappropriate and maybe even at its base immoral.

00:14:03.080 And I suppose that critique can be extended to the whole free market enterprise, you know,

00:14:09.020 where there are clear winners and losers in different domains.

00:14:11.800 So why do you think, and why has this been true for you personally,

00:14:16.240 why do you think that it's a valid ethical endeavor to be ambitious and to attempt to achieve these high-order goals?

00:14:24.840 And why is it, do you think, that it's appropriate to take pleasure in both competition and competitive victory?

00:14:32.600 I don't look at ambition as something that's selfish.

00:14:36.880 I have had my fair share, of course, I am an ambitious person.

00:14:40.400 Again, I like to achieve my goals, but there are many times where I've fallen short of achieving my goals.

00:14:46.300 So it sounds as if, you know, you're doing this to win, to compete at that high level and whatever that looks like.

00:14:55.020 But I take value in not achieving my goals.

00:14:59.140 How can we build from that?

00:15:01.460 How can we continue to use your failures, your shortcomings, as a way to continue building up?

00:15:08.300 So as much as I do take value in winning, I think there's a certain aspect to losing that is also beneficial and has really thrusted me into the position that I'm in.

00:15:21.780 It's given me the confidence to do what I'm doing, the leadership, the security to take the arrows that I've been taking.

00:15:28.700 And so I think it's a balance, being ambitious of course.

00:15:32.800 Yeah, well, that's a really good point, you know, on the resilience front.

00:15:36.760 Because one of the things that people need to do to develop in their lives is, well, you could say grace in victory, but you can also say grace and resilience in defeat.

00:15:47.600 And the reason for that is that as we progress through life, as you pointed out, on all fronts, things are not always going to turn out the way we want them to turn out.

00:15:58.800 And we're going to all suffer harsh defeats of one form or another, sometimes justly and sometimes unjustly.

00:16:06.420 And because of that, one of the things that we need to learn and to learn early is how to take defeat in stride.

00:16:14.340 Now, you made a case that not only did you learn to take it in stride, but that you also learned how to extract value, let's say, from your failures so that you could then proceed to a new level of striving and attainment.

00:16:31.040 You know, when we see someone who's a good sport, and generally that's someone who we might spontaneously admire, we see someone who doesn't take too much, who doesn't try to become vainglorious, let's say, as a consequence of winning.

00:16:47.240 But even more importantly, that can take a defeat in good humor, can learn from it and can move forward nonetheless.

00:16:54.260 And the reason we admire that is because we all need to learn how to do that.

00:16:57.920 And you do learn that in the context of competition, if the competition is structured fairly and as a consequence of task-specific merit, let's say, which is clearly the case in an athletic realm.

00:17:12.540 Absolutely.

00:17:13.020 Right. So, you think now, you said that you made a lot of sacrifices on the time and energy front, let's say, to engage in this competitive enterprise, but that the rewards, despite the effort, the rewards were much greater than the cost of the sacrifice.

00:17:34.220 So, and you've alluded to some of the rewards. You said that you've been able to discipline yourself and push yourself, and you've also got resilient in the face of defeat, which is crucially important.

00:17:44.380 How do you think that's generalized to the rest of your life? And do you think that's typically the case for people who engage in athletic competition?

00:17:53.960 Like, what do you think that does for people in general?

00:17:55.920 I think the higher you compete in terms of what level you're competing at athletically, whether that be high school, then college, and then whatever sport that you may be doing, Olympic level, I think the higher you compete, the more benefits you reap, typically.

00:18:13.160 You learn more about determination, grit, resiliency. Of course, you are able to, the athletic achievements continue as well, but the lifelong skills and characteristics you develop outside of just the athletic achievements, these are skills that will translate far beyond that into your whole life, forever.

00:18:36.120 And that's something, again, that I'm witnessing in myself. I think if I didn't play sports, if I didn't have that sense of teamwork, that sense of, I was team captain at University of Kentucky for two years, so if I didn't have that sense of leadership, accountability, really, I think accountability and responsibility is a good word, then I don't think I would feel confident enough to take a public stance in the way that I have this past year.

00:19:01.320 Which, it sounds silly because it sounds silly because my stance is so simple and it's rooted in, of course, truth and common sense and science and logic, reasoning, all the things.

00:19:11.400 So it sounds silly to say I might not have the confidence and leadership and the security in and of myself to take the arrows that I'm taking if it weren't for sports.

00:19:21.340 I really do accrues. I really do accredit that to being an athlete.

00:19:25.060 There was an Ernst & Young study that said, I think, 94% of C-level executives, so CEOs, CFO, COO, that are females were once female athletes.

00:19:37.280 And I think that shows how the skills that you develop translate far beyond your sport.

00:19:43.340 Yeah, well, it might seem silly in one sense for you to make any claims to the necessity for training for just saying the things you're saying, but there aren't that many people saying the things you're saying in as public a manner as you're saying them.

00:20:01.780 And so, obviously, there's difficulties there that are beyond the typical person's athlete or not, the typical person's ability to withstand.

00:20:12.580 So even if the topic is in some ways surreal, it's definitely the case that it's unlikely that people are going to take a public stance.

00:20:24.220 Now, and so you said you learned to have a certain degree of confidence in yourself, but also to be able to tolerate a certain amount of stress as a consequence of this highly competitive training.

00:20:35.600 But I would also ask you, you were the team captain, you said, for a number of years.

00:20:41.060 And so what do you think the attributes, what are the necessary attributes of a team captain?

00:20:45.820 Now, obviously, you have to be very skilled athletically and competitive, and that means that you're striving to, for victory, you're striving to be the best on your team, you're striving to break the appropriate records.

00:20:56.840 But you have to modify that, obviously, if you're team captain.

00:21:00.120 And so, like, how do you think, how did you reconcile the demands to be the best on the team with the necessity of being a team leader?

00:21:07.520 And what did you have to learn in order to be an effective captain?

00:21:10.880 I think the thing that I knew I wanted to implement as a captain, my team at University of Kentucky, there's 40 girls. 0.50

00:21:19.100 Obviously, when you're dealing with 40 girls, there's a lot of different personalities. 1.00

00:21:24.220 There's a lot of different ways people communicate, how they handle situations, how they deal with pressure, how they like to be motivated.

00:21:31.440 And so, as a captain, number one, I wanted to be someone that everyone felt like they could talk to.

00:21:37.420 Again, when you're dealing with 40 girls, of course, there's cliques. 1.00

00:21:42.060 There's people on the team who are best friends.

00:21:44.100 There are other people who don't necessarily like each other.

00:21:47.720 You work together, but you won't be friends outside of your sport.

00:21:51.500 And so, I wanted to be someone who could unite everyone, in a sense.

00:21:57.520 I don't want to make anyone be friends with someone they don't want to be friends with.

00:22:00.620 But how can we come together to achieve our goals and what that looks like in terms of communication?

00:22:06.300 Which, again, I'm seeing that translate now into my life and how I deal with what I'm dealing with.

00:22:12.940 But I think communication is huge.

00:22:15.680 Two, I think what strived me to help us all achieve our goals, our goals we set as a team, was to constantly remind the team of the goals we set.

00:22:25.940 I think it's very often in sports where you talk about big things and then you kind of forget about it.

00:22:31.620 And when it comes championship season or whatever that looks like, you're not geared up to achieve what you've set because you haven't worked towards it, really.

00:22:39.640 You talk about it, but talking about it isn't enough.

00:22:42.600 So, in practice, I would constantly remind people, hey, you know, this is the goal you set for yourself personally, which can help us achieve our goals as a team.

00:22:51.140 Don't forget that.

00:22:52.520 And I always saw that.

00:22:53.460 Right, so that's that alignment.

00:22:55.520 Well, one of the most effective leadership strategies, although I hate to reduce it to a strategy because it's more than that, is to produce an organization predicated on the intrinsic alignment of interests, right?

00:23:11.720 And so what you really want if you set up an organization is you want each person pursuing a goal that they personally value and so are willing to work for and to sacrifice for and to dedicate themselves to.

00:23:24.060 And then you want each of those goals to be serving a superordinate goal that unites and moves the entire team ahead.

00:23:32.000 And then you don't have to use coercion and so forth.

00:23:34.060 And you can imagine if you're doing that, helping each athlete become the best they can be on the personal level for whatever personal gain they might manage in terms of being more resilient and in terms of, you know, achievement status and all of those things, comparative status.

00:23:51.440 You're also doing the same thing for the team and you can understand without much effort how useful that would be in executive management, for example.

00:24:03.400 Like I worked with a number of extraordinarily good managers in the business realm, especially on the legal front and then also in academia.

00:24:10.900 And the really great managers, they had a very light touch.

00:24:16.140 They tended to go around and remove problems before they started.

00:24:20.680 And so it often looked like they were doing almost nothing, but they were also extremely good at aligning people's interests so that everybody was moving in the same desirable direction.

00:24:30.880 And so what do you think you did badly on that front and had to learn to do better?

00:24:36.820 And what do you think you did well?

00:24:39.100 I think the things I did well were the things I mentioned.

00:24:45.280 It's especially as a woman, it's difficult to hold each other accountable. 1.00

00:24:49.800 Typically women, they don't like to be assertive in that way. 1.00

00:24:53.400 They think it's mean.

00:24:54.420 They think it's they take it personal.

00:24:56.140 And so something I always tried to do well was hold people accountable in a way that made them want to do better.

00:25:04.200 And I think that falls along with, again, helping people develop personally to reach those team goals, which, again, it's I don't think even a male can understand necessarily how women, how especially a room, a group of 40 women.

00:25:23.320 And that dynamic is hard to navigate.

00:25:27.060 And so holding people accountable, I think it's crucial.

00:25:29.820 And I feel as if I did that relatively well.

00:25:32.580 What I think I could have probably improved on is being a little more understanding.

00:25:40.300 It's hard for me to put myself in someone else's shoes sometimes to consider what they have going on outside of the sport because we truly did put so much of our identity, so much of our self-worth into our sport that I oftentimes would forget to look at anything other than what's going on in the sport.

00:26:00.840 If someone was having a bad practice, it was very quick for me to get snippy at them without remotely and thinking about other factors that could contribute to the bad practice, whether that be sleep, diet, school.

00:26:15.540 That's a hard psychological dynamic.

00:26:18.960 And you made a sex-specific comment there, too, that we could delve into.

00:26:22.700 Well, you know, if you're focused on a particular goal and you're competitive and achievement-oriented and you want to win, then your focus tends to narrow to that particular domain, right?

00:26:33.260 Absolutely.

00:26:33.540 What that means is that you'll sacrifice other interests and concerns for that particular, what would you say, ability to progress along that particular axis.

00:26:45.680 And as you said, well, that can come across as harsh.

00:26:49.040 Now, on average, women are more agreeable than men.

00:26:52.720 And so that means, on average, they're less harsh, at least overtly.

00:26:59.240 And, you know, it's an open question, and I don't think anybody knows exactly how to answer this question, than what effective leadership on the female front looks like. 0.99

00:27:09.960 Now, you faulted yourself, and I would say you faulted yourself, in some sense, for taking a more masculine perspective on those sorts of group endeavors, because it's typical among men for a group of men to concentrate on the goal at hand and to say, to hell with all the other concerns, which is something like, don't bring your bloody troubles to work, just do your damn job. 0.97

00:27:34.700 Now, you made the point that that was perhaps differentially challenging when working with women. 0.97

00:27:42.480 Do you think, why do you think that?

00:27:44.780 Why isn't that just a sexist claim, for example?

00:27:48.400 I mean, why do you think that's the case?

00:27:50.260 Where have you run into that, and how would you justify it?

00:27:52.640 And what did you do about it?

00:27:53.960 Right.

00:27:54.380 Yeah, this is solely based off my experiences.

00:27:57.740 At the University of Kentucky, of course, there's a men's team and a women's team.

00:28:00.980 My husband now, who I've married, he was on the men's team at Kentucky.

00:28:06.700 Just watching their interactions, watching how they can communicate with each other, brush it off, come back to the next practice and be totally fine, that doesn't work with girls. 1.00

00:28:17.900 Again, based solely off of my experiences, this isn't to overgeneralize.

00:28:22.540 This is to share exactly what I have seen firsthand.

00:28:28.500 Girls tend to be more moody. 1.00

00:28:30.120 They tend to not take constructive criticism as well, whether that be from the coach or from other teammates or from whoever.

00:28:38.580 But the men, on the other hand, especially at the University of Kentucky, which, again, I was able to witness, they could get on each other's backs.

00:28:45.760 They could say personal things to each other that even didn't necessarily apply to their sport when they were getting on one another.

00:28:53.040 As women, there would be catfights if we did that, which, again, sounds silly, but that's truthfully what I experience on a day-to-day basis.

00:29:03.100 Well, you know, the other, so one of the temperamental differences between men and women is that difference in agreeableness, let's say.

00:29:11.200 And so there's less of a tendency for overt conflict among women. 1.00

00:29:16.760 Now, that doesn't mean there's less of a tendency for covert conflict.

00:29:20.100 And actually, what you do see is that antisocial women, right, the ones who can't cooperate well and who can't work together in a team, they use underground strategies like reputation savaging and gossip to, what would you say, promulgate their aggressive behavior. 1.00

00:29:37.960 Now, men are much more likely to do that up front, and there's some simplicity in that.

00:29:42.880 But also, women have a proclivity to experience more negative emotion than men, and so for each unit of stress, they manifest more psychophysiological response.

00:29:53.220 That seems to kick in around puberty, and so that additional, call it volatility is the technical term.

00:30:00.260 That's an aspect of trait neuroticism, by the way.

00:30:02.660 That volatility also, that increased volatility also makes it more difficult, arguably, for women to brush things off the same way that men who are cooperating in a team might. 0.74

00:30:13.480 And I mean, the reason I'm talking about this, by the way, and delving into this, is because we are going to get into the topic of sex and gender very soon.

00:30:21.540 Because, well, that's where we're headed, given that that's the root of the conflict that's made itself manifest around you.

00:30:29.280 And so, it's useful to establish and to start to explore the territory that's relevant with regard to sex differentiation.

00:30:39.000 Now, obviously, when you were competing, you weren't competing in a co-ed situation.

00:30:46.040 Right.

00:30:46.560 It was women competing against women and men competing against men, and it's been set up like that for a long time. 0.61

00:30:51.860 Right. So, given the claims in our society for radical equality, both in actuality and as a desirable outcome, first of all, do you think that there's any, what is, if any, the justification for not making all sporting events, let's say, radically co-ed?

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00:32:20.480 Well, because I think we know how this would turn out time and time again, regardless of the sport,

00:32:26.060 regardless of if it's an individual sport, a team sport, what that might look like.

00:32:30.760 We've seen example after example where a mediocre male or mediocre men's team, nowhere near ranking the top.

00:32:40.560 Let's say this could be nationally, this could be whatever level you're comparing here.

00:32:45.420 Unanimously, these men, these men's teams, they dominate the women. 1.00

00:32:50.980 So having a co-ed team, that would not be beneficial to women by any means. 1.00

00:32:57.980 So I think that's why I believe there's value to having co-ed instructional teams when you're younger, when you're learning.

00:33:06.660 But once you've gone through that puberty, it's irreversible.

00:33:13.660 Men are, of course, on average, taller, faster, stronger, more powerful.

00:33:17.880 They jump higher.

00:33:19.320 There's so many different attributes, advantages that men have in comparison to women.

00:33:25.440 And so I think co-ed teams, in a sense, if that's what you're looking for, of course, there's value to it.

00:33:32.340 But at the competitive level where you're competing, again, to win, that's what your goal is.

00:33:39.840 Having men compete against women is very obvious. 1.00

00:33:44.300 It's unfair.

00:33:45.200 Okay, so let me push this.

00:33:48.940 I'm going to push this as far as I can push it because things are being pushed in our culture as far as they can be pushed.

00:33:55.860 So we might as well go in for a penny and in for a pound.

00:33:58.660 I could say, well, why don't we just scrap women's sports altogether? 1.00

00:34:03.280 Like, if the goal is faster, stronger, better, more powerful, and on average, that's not happening in the female domain, 1.00

00:34:11.320 why don't we just give up the entire enterprise on the female sports end and just let the men take over the playing field? 1.00

00:34:19.000 If that's the point, you know, if the point is to foster the highest possible level of performance.

00:34:25.720 So what do you?

00:34:27.000 To say that men are stronger, to say that men are faster, taller, whatever, that's not to say that women are inferior. 0.98

00:34:35.560 That's not to say that we're not capable of amazing things and we're not strong and we're not, again, all of those words I previously mentioned,

00:34:43.400 but we have different physical ceilings.

00:34:46.080 I believe we deserve to be celebrated on our uniqueness.

00:34:49.740 That's what makes the women's sporting category special. 0.74

00:34:53.420 And there are still phenoms in women's sports, just like there are male sports. 1.00

00:34:57.980 Look at Venus and Serena Williams.

00:35:00.020 While by no means could they compete with the best male tennis player, they're phenomenal.

00:35:07.240 They are, it's amazing what they've accomplished.

00:35:11.560 They've set themselves apart from every other female in the world. 1.00

00:35:15.100 And that deserves to be recognized.

00:35:17.360 So to say we're different.

00:35:18.520 Yeah, well, okay, so let's delve into that.

00:35:21.260 So, because you might say, well, there's two reasons for high-level competition.

00:35:27.240 And let's say on the athletic front, one would be to extend the domain of what's possible in terms of performance and to model that for other people.

00:35:35.820 And then you could make a case, well, you could make the case that the absolute records are the best example of that.

00:35:41.560 So the fastest person in the world, the fastest swimmer in the world, and most of the time that's going to be men.

00:35:47.920 But then you could make a more sophisticated case, which I believe is the proper case,

00:35:53.220 that actually what you're doing as an athlete or as any expert in a competitive realm is modeling the ability to push the envelope and to further transform and develop.

00:36:08.660 And unless you believe that that's less important for women, which is a preposterous thing to believe,

00:36:14.580 then you have to believe that setting up a situation where women can push the envelope consistently in whatever directions they're pushing,

00:36:23.920 you have to presume that that's a psychological good and a social good.

00:36:27.520 And then you have to presume that the spaces where that can occur have to be protected.

00:36:31.660 But that also opens a can of worms, doesn't it?

00:36:33.880 Because since the 1960s in particular, we've blown off the barriers between men and women in terms of general participation in society.

00:36:46.720 And so we've decided that all things considered...

00:36:53.220 Spaces isolated to a given sex are suboptimal, right? 0.96

00:36:58.860 The schools are co-ed, like the public schools, the universities are co-ed.

00:37:03.840 All business enterprises are co-ed, so to speak.

00:37:07.400 And then, of course, so that raises the question, well, should any domains be left sex segregated?

00:37:17.040 If so, how do you walk the fine line between sex segregation for the purpose of facilitating development

00:37:26.680 and sex segregation that turns into prejudice and oppression, right?

00:37:34.040 Just rejection on the basis of sex?

00:37:36.060 And then also the thorny question of, well, if most enterprises should be completely open to both sexes,

00:37:44.880 which enterprises should be protected?

00:37:48.240 Do you have any...

00:37:49.020 Obviously, you believe that athletic performance, athletic competition per se, should be one of those protected categories.

00:37:57.280 But do you have any sense of how we, as a society, should draw the line?

00:38:03.840 It's like, are there spaces that should be male-only?

00:38:07.480 Like, one of the things I really wonder about, for example, I talked to Tulsi Gabbard about this a while back,

00:38:11.920 is like, it isn't obvious to me at all that our society would benefit by having women in frontline combat. 0.90

00:38:21.220 Like, and it isn't that I can generate an immediate, coherent argument for why I believe that.

00:38:31.100 There's something about it that strikes me more deeply and emotionally, I suppose,

00:38:36.520 that that just, there's something preposterous about that.

00:38:39.620 Maybe it's partly because, look, it isn't obvious to me that professional frontline combat,

00:38:45.080 that's pretty damn hard on anyone.

00:38:47.560 That's even really hard on extremely well put together and extraordinarily strong and brave men.

00:38:55.080 And so, to also presume that that's going to be open to women

00:38:59.340 just seems to me to be taking the whole bloody charade too far.

00:39:04.100 Now, you know, you could say, well, that I'm old-fashioned and prejudiced,

00:39:06.880 although I don't actually think I'm either.

00:39:08.760 But, you know, it is a thorny question, right?

00:39:11.000 It's like, well, if men and women are equal, then why should there ever be sex-segregated spaces of any sort?

00:39:17.520 And we're certainly seeing that on the bathroom front.

00:39:20.440 We're seeing that on the change room front.

00:39:22.860 We're seeing that on the athletic front.

00:39:25.020 So, what do you, where do you think that the line should be drawn

00:39:29.780 so that there are female spaces and male spaces and that those are protected? 0.69

00:39:33.840 And how do you think we manage that, like, legally and conceptually?

00:39:36.720 I think where any place where either of the sexes is vulnerable,

00:39:43.500 whether that be in regards to privacy, in regards to safety,

00:39:47.060 in regards to anything that relies on your physiology,

00:39:51.440 because, of course, men and women are physiologically different,

00:39:54.940 I think that's where that sex protection-based rights are important.

00:40:00.720 So, prisons, that's an area where women specifically are vulnerable. 1.00

00:40:05.340 Of course, shelters, again, bathrooms, locker rooms.

00:40:09.940 No woman should be subjected to having a male in that space. 0.99

00:40:15.500 So, I think it's areas where sex is important. 0.99

00:40:19.980 Okay, so it's something like there's a subset of areas where

00:40:25.160 the fact of the biological difference between men and women becomes paramount.

00:40:30.880 Correct.

00:40:31.380 Right, and so those would be, well, in change rooms is a really good example of that.

00:40:35.900 But you extended that also to, say, women's shelters and prisons and so forth.

00:40:42.040 So, it's, there's something there that's sort of, what would you say,

00:40:46.780 it's reminiscent of the idea of nakedness, I suppose,

00:40:51.100 because you mentioned vulnerability, right?

00:40:53.220 Right.

00:40:53.420 So, when you're stripped down to your most vulnerable,

00:40:56.260 that's when the segregation is most necessary.

00:40:59.200 It's something like that, right?

00:41:00.820 I believe.

00:41:01.320 It seems that way.

00:41:01.920 Yeah, I believe there's value in understanding that.

00:41:08.500 I truthfully think anywhere where sex is relevant,

00:41:13.040 there are certain places, let's consider the workplace.

00:41:17.980 There are certain places where sex isn't necessarily relevant.

00:41:21.840 There are certain places where it are.

00:41:23.060 I like how you mentioned military.

00:41:24.660 That's a very good point.

00:41:25.660 Men and women, there are differences there that would, again,

00:41:30.920 make anything that requires sheer strength,

00:41:33.960 make men be advantageous and make that more achievable. 0.86

00:41:40.720 That's what we're wanting, right?

00:41:42.280 We want to be this powerhouse.

00:41:43.720 We want men at the forefront.

00:41:45.900 So, I think where sex plays a role, 0.68

00:41:48.480 that's where we kind of have to draw that line.

00:41:51.260 So, it would be where the biological differences are germane,

00:41:57.140 number one, to performance,

00:41:59.260 like specifically germane to performance,

00:42:01.280 but also, number two,

00:42:03.140 specifically germane to differential vulnerability.

00:42:06.880 So, anywhere where women are sexually vulnerable 0.85

00:42:09.000 or anywhere where the physical differences in performance

00:42:13.280 actually have a substantive effect on the performance itself.

00:42:21.260 So, here's an example.

00:42:22.660 I mean, there's no evidence that men and women differ in IQ.

00:42:27.220 There are micro-differences in IQ,

00:42:29.420 and some of them are arguably important in some micro-domains.

00:42:33.960 But overall, the evidence is quite clear that,

00:42:36.740 on average, men and women have the same level of intelligence.

00:42:39.200 And so, then we might presume that,

00:42:41.500 in any domain where intelligence is the fundamental marker

00:42:45.300 of potential merit, there should be no sex segregation.

00:42:49.460 But if we're looking at something like, let's say,

00:42:53.240 military battlefield rescue, that might be a good one,

00:42:58.560 where physical strength becomes a paramount marker

00:43:04.180 of the actual ability to do the job,

00:43:06.520 then sex-based discrimination starts to become

00:43:11.420 appropriate and morally required.

00:43:14.180 And then you could make the reverse case,

00:43:15.720 which is, well, where women are particularly vulnerable 1.00

00:43:17.760 on the sexual front,

00:43:19.160 so that would be in locker rooms, for example,

00:43:21.460 that's also a place where sex segregation is reasonable. 1.00

00:43:25.560 So, those are the basic rules, something like that.

00:43:28.120 Not just is it appropriate and morally responsible,

00:43:32.160 it's beneficial.

00:43:32.780 It's something that is good for the greater good

00:43:36.940 of society in general.

00:43:39.200 So, yeah, I agree.

00:43:41.780 Okay, okay, okay.

00:43:42.960 Well, that seems to be a reasonable set of rules of thumb.

00:43:45.620 Okay, now let's talk about,

00:43:47.200 I have one more question about your,

00:43:49.500 the discipline that was required

00:43:51.180 for you to become a high-level swimmer,

00:43:54.640 because you said that the benefits were worth the cost,

00:43:58.980 but I'd like to talk a little bit more about the costs.

00:44:01.080 And the reason I'm curious about this is because

00:44:03.020 we're going to talk about Leah Thomas soon,

00:44:05.580 and we're going to talk about the entrance of men

00:44:07.500 into the female competitive realm. 1.00

00:44:11.360 And I want people to understand

00:44:13.020 just exactly what's on the line here.

00:44:14.820 So, when you were in junior high,

00:44:16.960 which is the time when teenagers start to become,

00:44:19.840 say, more hyper-social,

00:44:21.160 they're spending most of the time with their peers,

00:44:23.020 they really care about that social time with their peers,

00:44:26.980 they adjudicate almost all of their status

00:44:29.740 and self-confidence in relationship

00:44:31.720 to their peer relations.

00:44:33.240 You're spending, what, four hours a day swimming.

00:44:37.840 So, what did you have to give up in order,

00:44:41.800 on the social front, let's say,

00:44:44.480 maybe on the relationship front for that matter,

00:44:46.680 what did you have to give up

00:44:47.720 to pursue your single-minded devotion to your sport?

00:44:53.680 It's impossible to put into words

00:44:55.840 what you have to give up.

00:44:57.540 By no sense is this a normal childhood, shall we say.

00:45:01.560 You don't get to go to prom.

00:45:02.840 You don't get to go on vacations.

00:45:04.200 You don't get to have sleepovers with your friends.

00:45:06.540 And again, no one forced us to do this.

00:45:09.500 My parents didn't force me to play my sport.

00:45:11.840 It's just what I knew I had to do.

00:45:14.320 And so, you pick one thing to prioritize.

00:45:17.860 And for me, it was my sport.

00:45:19.500 But there was a lot of social sacrifices.

00:45:22.680 At the collegiate level,

00:45:24.220 you're missing weeks of school at a time.

00:45:26.540 So, right there, you're sacrificing

00:45:28.560 your education, in a sense.

00:45:32.100 We're very fortunate that we have resources

00:45:33.960 like tutors and different things

00:45:35.900 that help us not miss out too much.

00:45:40.240 But the amount of things that are altered

00:45:44.280 because of your sport,

00:45:46.420 it's impossible to put into words.

00:45:48.980 Again, my world essentially,

00:45:50.860 all of our world competing at that level.

00:45:52.840 It has to.

00:45:53.680 There's no other option.

00:45:55.160 It revolves around your sport.

00:45:57.520 That is your priority.

00:45:59.040 And everything else really falls in line behind.

00:46:02.520 I missed out on funerals of loved ones

00:46:04.460 because I couldn't leave college to go home,

00:46:08.140 which sounds, of course, morbid.

00:46:09.700 It sounds toxic.

00:46:10.580 It sounds as if this is crazy.

00:46:14.260 But, again, that's just what you have to be willing to do,

00:46:18.400 especially in a sport like swimming.

00:46:20.140 Swimming is obviously unnatural for human beings.

00:46:22.840 We don't have gills.

00:46:24.300 We don't—it's not a natural ability.

00:46:27.760 So taking a day off, that's not allowed,

00:46:32.040 especially over COVID.

00:46:33.440 This was a really hard time

00:46:34.780 because, again, we never got sent home.

00:46:37.120 I was at University of Kentucky summer, all summer long.

00:46:40.840 We were there over Thanksgiving.

00:46:42.460 We didn't get to leave for Christmas.

00:46:44.620 You never got to go home.

00:46:45.880 You got a week off in August each year.

00:46:48.060 But over COVID, of course, we did get sent home.

00:46:51.140 This was a struggle, not just physically,

00:46:55.000 but the amount of—the toll this had on one mentally, naturally.

00:47:01.900 You've dedicated your life to your sport.

00:47:03.720 Suddenly, very abruptly, that's taken away.

00:47:07.680 And so when we get sent home, no pools are open.

00:47:10.300 No gyms are open.

00:47:11.440 We got sent home three days before our national championships

00:47:13.660 my sophomore year,

00:47:14.620 so it felt as if we had trained all year

00:47:17.200 to get to the fastest meet in the world

00:47:19.640 because that's what this meet is,

00:47:21.200 especially short course.

00:47:22.540 The fastest meet in the world,

00:47:23.900 you train all year, all your life.

00:47:25.700 You get sent home three days before.

00:47:27.960 That was hard.

00:47:29.000 That was a hard period of time.

00:47:32.180 But being sent home, no pools, no gyms,

00:47:34.780 nothing is open, constant stress.

00:47:37.340 I was very fortunate to be from Tennessee

00:47:39.260 where there's lots of lakes.

00:47:41.120 So every day, my only option was to put on a wetsuit

00:47:44.260 and swim miles aimlessly up and down the lake.

00:47:47.300 Like, that's all I knew I could do

00:47:51.060 because, again, that's how dedicated I was,

00:47:53.780 and that's not unique to me.

00:47:55.560 It might be unique in a sense where I had lakes around me,

00:47:58.640 but any of us competing at that level.

00:48:00.520 If you're dedicated to achieving your goals,

00:48:03.040 that's what you would do.

00:48:04.280 So that's what I did every single day for months.

00:48:08.840 Okay, so now we could,

00:48:10.220 let's take a look at your situation.

00:48:12.100 So you're playing a game.

00:48:14.620 You're playing this game of competitive swimming.

00:48:17.880 And let's lay out the broader social rules.

00:48:21.000 So the rules are something like this.

00:48:24.340 Your contribution is the sacrifices you're willing to make

00:48:30.100 and the discipline that you're willing to impose on yourself

00:48:32.480 and the leadership roles that you're willing to take on

00:48:35.340 to help other people do the same thing.

00:48:36.980 That's your contribution.

00:48:38.080 Now, the game rule is that if you do your part,

00:48:44.080 then you can compete against other people

00:48:46.000 who are basically facing the same limits you are intrinsically.

00:48:50.900 So those would be people of your sex.

00:48:52.560 And then all of you are competing to transcend your limitations,

00:48:56.100 to become better losers, to become better winners,

00:48:59.300 to become more resilient people,

00:49:00.980 to become more focused and disciplined.

00:49:03.260 And that's the payoff for you.

00:49:05.620 But all those rules have to apply fairly

00:49:09.260 in order for that game to be justifiable.

00:49:11.720 Now, you're objecting because some of that contractual bargain,

00:49:17.460 let's say, was violated by the COVID pre-prohibitions.

00:49:21.600 But we're now going to turn to a more specific case.

00:49:25.120 So the rules are you're competing against people

00:49:27.460 who have the same limitations you are

00:49:29.220 so that all of your attempts to transcend your limitations

00:49:32.660 are fair and then equally rewarded.

00:49:37.140 But now we throw a monkey wrench into the works.

00:49:40.220 We decide that a biological male

00:49:43.020 who undergoes a certain amount of psychological

00:49:46.080 and or physiological transformation

00:49:48.400 can now be deemed a woman. 0.58

00:49:50.160 And so let's turn to that.

00:49:52.300 So when were you and your teammates

00:49:55.580 first faced with the necessity

00:49:58.000 of competing against someone

00:50:00.520 who was at one point 100% a biological male?

00:50:06.840 This is something we did in practice oftentimes.

00:50:10.680 So in a sense, we were relatively used to,

00:50:14.440 at least we understood,

00:50:15.720 the differences between men and women

00:50:17.420 because we would practice together in the mornings.

00:50:21.840 At nights, we would have different practice times,

00:50:23.560 the men and the women's team.

00:50:24.860 But in the mornings,

00:50:25.680 we would practice together for the most part.

00:50:27.900 So we knew what that looked like.

00:50:29.720 I mean, the worst men's swimmer 1.00

00:50:31.680 on the men's team, University of Kentucky,

00:50:33.260 could easily beat the fastest girl on our team. 1.00

00:50:36.700 So we knew what that looked like.

00:50:38.660 But in terms of facing a male in competition,

00:50:41.760 that did not happen

00:50:42.900 until our NCAA championships in March for my team.

00:50:45.600 There were other teams within the Ivy League,

00:50:49.080 other schools,

00:50:50.440 that this was something they dealt with all year long,

00:50:53.040 starting in October.

00:50:54.100 That was what year?

00:50:55.140 That was what year?

00:50:55.980 This was, it started in 2021 to 2022.

00:50:59.440 So 2021.

00:51:00.820 And that, you said in March?

00:51:02.240 So it was in March of 2022,

00:51:04.580 but the season began in about October, September of 2021.

00:51:09.800 Okay, okay.

00:51:10.660 Now, so now two questions that come out for that.

00:51:13.920 The first is, when you're practicing

00:51:17.060 with the men in the morning

00:51:18.280 and you see that the worst man on the male team

00:51:21.480 can swim faster than the fastest woman 0.98

00:51:23.900 on the woman's team,

00:51:27.060 what's the appropriate psychological reaction to that?

00:51:30.340 Because you could imagine that,

00:51:32.260 you know, you could imagine two routes.

00:51:33.780 You could imagine on the one hand

00:51:34.780 that it would be demoralizing

00:51:36.040 because it is in terms of absolute performance.

00:51:38.740 Or on the other hand, you could think,

00:51:40.280 well, it's irrelevant because that's not the game, right?

00:51:42.940 The game is that you're competing against people

00:51:44.740 who have your limitations,

00:51:46.040 not people who have this other set of limitations.

00:51:48.260 I mean, if you're in the pool with a dolphin

00:51:51.680 and it swam faster than you,

00:51:53.400 that wasn't, well, it's not going to be demoralizing

00:51:55.620 because it's not the same game.

00:51:57.680 So was there any sense of demoralization

00:52:01.260 among the women with regards to the apprehension

00:52:04.020 of the superior performance of the males?

00:52:05.880 Or was that off the table?

00:52:07.300 Was that irrelevant?

00:52:08.240 Yeah, that was irrelevant.

00:52:09.800 Of course, we expected to get beat,

00:52:12.760 but in a sense, it gave us kind of a driving factor.

00:52:18.720 If we're racing next to a male

00:52:21.620 or whatever that looked like,

00:52:24.140 if we're practicing next to a male,

00:52:28.220 you could almost strive to keep up with them

00:52:30.600 because you knew in a sense that you couldn't,

00:52:33.960 but you could kind of set that barrier.

00:52:35.800 Let's see how close I can get.

00:52:37.300 Um, so by no means was it demoralizing.

00:52:39.940 It was more so irrelevant, if not relevant.

00:52:42.580 I mean, it could be seen as beneficial to competing

00:52:45.120 or not competing, training with males

00:52:46.980 because you're training next to someone

00:52:49.260 who's better than you.

00:52:50.020 And that's always a good thing, right?

00:52:51.380 If you're dedicated to pushing yourself

00:52:53.520 and bettering yourself.

00:52:55.020 Um, so it was not demoralizing by any means.

00:52:58.580 It was more so irrelevant.

00:53:00.880 Okay. Okay. Okay.

00:53:02.120 So now March, 2022, you're at a championship.

00:53:05.600 Maybe you can, you can fill us in on the details here.

00:53:08.440 And is this the first time

00:53:10.000 that you come up against Leah Thomas particularly?

00:53:12.400 This is the first time I had swam against Leah Thomas.

00:53:15.580 Um, a little earlier.

00:53:16.740 Okay. So tell us that story.

00:53:17.640 Tell us that story.

00:53:18.640 And how did you find out?

00:53:20.800 Tell us the whole story.

00:53:21.840 How did you find out that this was even going to happen?

00:53:24.660 So-

00:53:25.080 How did you respond?

00:53:26.100 And how did your team respond?

00:53:27.920 So in about November of 2021,

00:53:30.540 um, November, December time period,

00:53:32.620 this is about the middle of our season.

00:53:34.960 Um, it's my senior year.

00:53:37.060 Um, I had made it my goal to become a national champion.

00:53:41.440 Um, the year prior, I finished seventh in the country

00:53:43.760 and I knew I could do better.

00:53:45.580 There was a lot of girls who finished above me

00:53:47.360 who were graduating or who, uh,

00:53:49.720 they weren't competing in the same events

00:53:51.320 for whatever reason.

00:53:52.060 So I knew I could perform better

00:53:53.620 than I had the year before.

00:53:54.640 Um, about November, December,

00:53:58.720 I was on track to do so.

00:54:01.540 Um, I was ranked third in the country

00:54:03.000 behind one amazing female swimmer 1.00

00:54:05.760 who I knew very well.

00:54:06.940 Because like in most sports,

00:54:08.940 you're top tier athletes.

00:54:10.520 You know each other,

00:54:11.480 regardless of where you compete in the country,

00:54:13.520 which school you go to,

00:54:14.620 what events you even swim,

00:54:16.100 because you've grown up competing against each other.

00:54:19.080 Um, and, and she was of course ranked second.

00:54:21.160 And the person who was ranked first was,

00:54:25.440 this was the first time I became aware of Leah Thomas.

00:54:28.260 But at the time, unbeknownst to me,

00:54:30.080 this was a male.

00:54:31.080 There was a lot of red flags.

00:54:33.100 One of which being,

00:54:34.600 this was a swimmer from University of Pennsylvania,

00:54:36.940 which is not a school that historically

00:54:39.040 produces fast swimmers.

00:54:40.920 Um, think of basketball.

00:54:42.140 You have your schools that historically are pretty good.

00:54:45.220 I've never heard of anyone come from

00:54:46.660 University of Pennsylvania and be a decent swimmer.

00:54:49.300 Two, this person was a senior,

00:54:52.720 which was bizarre.

00:54:54.060 Swimming is a sport where typically you peak

00:54:56.140 when you're younger.

00:54:57.160 To peak when you're 22 years old,

00:54:58.800 that's, that's not, not common.

00:55:01.240 Three, this swimmer was ranked at the top

00:55:03.520 and everything, all the freestyle events

00:55:05.480 from the 100 freestyle, which is a sprint,

00:55:08.420 everything in between to the mile,

00:55:10.420 which the mile is long distance.

00:55:11.960 And so think about your Olympic runners.

00:55:13.960 Your best 200 meter runner

00:55:15.240 is not your best marathon runner,

00:55:17.080 but that's what we were seeing in this individual.

00:55:18.820 Those are totally different systems.

00:55:21.080 Um, lots of head scratching.

00:55:22.960 Right.

00:55:23.180 So that's, we should,

00:55:23.900 we should concentrate on that for a second

00:55:25.700 because I think your,

00:55:27.160 your comments there are particularly germane

00:55:29.740 because when you're competing at a very high level,

00:55:34.000 small differences in specialization

00:55:37.000 are going to loom large.

00:55:38.680 And as you said, in the Olympics,

00:55:40.900 the people who win the sprinting events

00:55:42.760 aren't the people who win the long distance events.

00:55:44.720 Those are, even though both of them are running,

00:55:47.580 there's enough difference between those formats of running

00:55:50.780 and the strategies

00:55:51.620 to completely differentiate the athletes now.

00:55:54.240 But you're seeing someone who is all of a sudden

00:55:57.720 far above the average

00:56:00.080 on a whole sequence of events

00:56:02.180 that shouldn't be associated in that manner.

00:56:05.760 Right.

00:56:06.060 And so there's something,

00:56:08.120 there's some,

00:56:08.700 there's something in the wood pile

00:56:09.860 that isn't just exactly right.

00:56:11.480 And so, and you said at the moment,

00:56:13.340 at that time,

00:56:13.960 you didn't know that this individual,

00:56:15.560 Leah Thomas was male.

00:56:17.760 No idea.

00:56:18.840 Lots of head scratching.

00:56:19.980 You know, who is this person?

00:56:21.220 I talked to my coaches.

00:56:22.340 He knew my goals

00:56:23.200 and he knew this person was a threat to my goals.

00:56:25.920 And we're trying to figure out,

00:56:27.120 you know, why have we never heard of,

00:56:28.960 of this girl we thought at the time?

00:56:30.880 Why have we never heard of this person?

00:56:32.220 You know, we talked amongst our team.

00:56:35.520 Just, it was this feeling of-

00:56:36.700 How the hell did you not know?

00:56:38.320 How is it possible that you didn't know

00:56:40.520 and that your coaches didn't know

00:56:41.860 that this person was male?

00:56:44.340 Like, this is, this is so weird

00:56:46.500 because it's not like you wouldn't normally,

00:56:51.060 as you said,

00:56:51.820 know who your competitors are.

00:56:53.280 How was this little secret,

00:56:55.180 let's say, kept secret?

00:56:57.360 I think it was something

00:56:59.400 the university kept under wraps for a while

00:57:01.560 and I didn't compete, again,

00:57:02.940 directly against this person.

00:57:04.240 I had no idea what this person looked like,

00:57:05.860 no idea that this person was six foot four.

00:57:08.940 And it just seemed so far-fetched

00:57:10.980 that this could be,

00:57:12.280 that this could be a male.

00:57:13.560 It never even once crossed my mind,

00:57:15.520 never once I was more apt to believe

00:57:19.520 that this was just someone who appeared

00:57:21.600 than it being a male.

00:57:23.000 I thought that would never happen,

00:57:24.100 especially at the level we were competing at.

00:57:26.400 But it was only a few days after

00:57:28.480 these Nation Leading Times were posted

00:57:30.120 that an article came out

00:57:31.920 and I'm talking in a very brief sentence

00:57:34.720 as if we were supposed to just read over it

00:57:37.120 and continue on

00:57:38.020 and the article didn't say this.

00:57:40.620 Very briefly, the article says,

00:57:42.880 Leah Thomas is formerly Will Thomas

00:57:44.560 and swam three years on the men's team

00:57:46.240 at University of Pennsylvania

00:57:47.380 before deciding to switch over to the women's team 0.99

00:57:49.960 and then continued on.

00:57:52.300 And so my coach sent me the article

00:57:54.380 and he says,

00:57:55.080 you need to look at this.

00:57:57.040 And I read it

00:57:58.120 and I have to read it again.

00:58:00.720 And I was shocked, naturally, of course,

00:58:04.700 when I read this.

00:58:05.900 But truthfully,

00:58:07.060 it felt like a sense of relief.

00:58:09.920 You know, it made it all make sense.

00:58:12.640 It makes sense why this person

00:58:14.220 is dominating everyone.

00:58:16.740 Again, I'm relating back to my experiences

00:58:19.680 in competing and training,

00:58:21.040 I guess, practicing with men.

00:58:23.660 Naturally, this person is dominating.

00:58:26.060 That's why I say it felt like relief

00:58:27.680 because I was then able to look up

00:58:29.380 who Will Thomas was.

00:58:31.240 I was curious,

00:58:32.660 was this a lateral movement?

00:58:34.380 Was this someone who went from ranking first

00:58:36.400 to continuing to rank first?

00:58:38.240 Which is, of course, not what we saw.

00:58:40.720 We saw someone-

00:58:41.240 No, no, let's talk about what we saw.

00:58:43.140 Yeah, because this is absolutely

00:58:45.000 relevant psychologically.

00:58:47.640 And this is where I think

00:58:48.720 the rubber really hits the road.

00:58:51.040 Because, you know,

00:58:52.240 it would be one thing, perhaps,

00:58:54.800 to have someone who was outstanding

00:58:57.560 in their fair competition

00:59:00.060 then become outstanding

00:59:02.320 in your competition.

00:59:04.080 But although Will Thomas

00:59:05.360 was a decent swimmer,

00:59:06.620 he was by no means outstanding.

00:59:08.760 So you could say that,

00:59:10.000 comparatively speaking,

00:59:11.240 it wasn't exactly as if he was a failure

00:59:13.060 because he was a competitive swimmer.

00:59:14.680 But he was no bloody champion.

00:59:16.960 And so to me,

00:59:17.860 and I'm speaking as a psychologist here,

00:59:20.460 that begs the question,

00:59:21.660 is that, well,

00:59:22.720 he wasn't spectacularly successful

00:59:24.500 on the male front.

00:59:25.940 And so you might ask,

00:59:27.080 well, exactly what are the motivations

00:59:28.420 for choosing to be spectacularly successful

00:59:30.900 on the female front?

00:59:32.340 And that doesn't strike me

00:59:33.820 as part of the bounds of fair competition

00:59:36.140 in any sense of the word whatsoever,

00:59:38.840 psychologically or socially.

00:59:40.740 Okay, so let's talk about

00:59:42.420 Will Thomas' pre-female record 0.74

00:59:45.200 as a swimmer.

00:59:46.200 Absolutely.

00:59:47.640 So what we saw

00:59:48.900 the year prior,

00:59:50.720 at best,

00:59:52.740 Leah, when Leah was Will,

00:59:54.560 was ranked 462nd nationally

00:59:56.980 among the men,

00:59:58.180 at best.

01:00:00.440 So, of course,

01:00:01.840 that's why,

01:00:02.360 that's again why I felt relief.

01:00:04.220 Because I thought,

01:00:06.140 of course,

01:00:06.620 it was obvious,

01:00:07.780 just looking at what's on the paper

01:00:09.380 in front of us,

01:00:10.240 this was not a lateral movement

01:00:11.600 by any means.

01:00:13.120 I thought the NCAA,

01:00:15.280 which is, of course,

01:00:16.060 the governing body

01:00:16.920 who would ultimately decide

01:00:19.500 if Thomas got to compete

01:00:20.820 with the women,

01:00:21.960 I thought they would see it

01:00:22.980 exactly how I saw it.

01:00:24.760 Nothing opinionated,

01:00:26.220 nothing hateful,

01:00:27.080 nothing rooted in hate,

01:00:28.600 the facts of it.

01:00:30.780 What we were looking at,

01:00:33.840 that is not how the NCAA saw it.

01:00:36.240 They saw absolutely nothing wrong

01:00:38.780 with allowing Thomas

01:00:40.080 to go from a mediocre male

01:00:42.200 to now the fastest woman 0.99

01:00:44.700 in the country.

01:00:46.380 Okay, so let me ask you

01:00:47.920 a question here.

01:00:48.540 This is going to require

01:00:49.340 some speculation on your part, eh?

01:00:52.160 So we might say,

01:00:54.480 well, it's all about winning.

01:00:56.600 And so why not set up the contest

01:00:59.860 so that you can win?

01:01:01.520 And I know this is preposterous.

01:01:03.480 Imagine you wanted to play

01:01:04.420 one-on-one basketball,

01:01:06.100 you know, for entertainment,

01:01:07.120 and you decided that

01:01:08.300 what you were going to do

01:01:09.260 is win and maybe you're,

01:01:11.380 so you decide to play basketball

01:01:13.340 with your,

01:01:14.960 I could do this,

01:01:16.100 even though I don't know

01:01:17.060 how to play basketball 0.95

01:01:17.800 worth a damn. 0.96

01:01:18.700 I could pick my three-year-old grandson 0.99

01:01:20.720 to play basketball against

01:01:22.080 and I just stomped the hell

01:01:23.320 out of him.

01:01:23.980 And pretty regularly, right?

01:01:25.760 And pretty convincingly.

01:01:28.280 And I would be the winner.

01:01:31.060 And anyone with any sense

01:01:32.520 would look at that and say, 0.99

01:01:33.860 well, that's a pretty pathetic 0.99

01:01:34.840 kind of victory there, buddy. 0.99

01:01:36.140 You know, why don't you pick

01:01:37.320 on someone your own size?

01:01:39.480 And anyone with any sense

01:01:41.260 would also point out,

01:01:42.300 well, you know,

01:01:42.760 it's probably the case

01:01:43.680 that if you pick

01:01:45.100 the wrong opponent,

01:01:46.660 which is someone

01:01:47.220 that you can trounce

01:01:48.300 regularly without effort,

01:01:50.140 that's really not going

01:01:51.160 to be very fun.

01:01:52.440 And that's partly

01:01:53.200 because you're not pushing

01:01:54.220 yourself in any real sense.

01:01:55.700 You're not pushing

01:01:56.920 the boundaries.

01:01:57.700 You're not developing yourself.

01:01:58.980 You're certainly not

01:01:59.600 helping them develop.

01:02:00.620 You're demoralizing them.

01:02:01.920 So I could say,

01:02:02.780 well, Riley,

01:02:03.820 why don't you enter yourself

01:02:08.040 into like a contest,

01:02:09.520 swimming contest for girls,

01:02:10.800 but in the like

01:02:11.880 10-year-old division?

01:02:14.680 You know,

01:02:14.980 you could win hands down,

01:02:16.760 quite handily,

01:02:17.540 I would presume. 1.00

01:02:18.340 You could make quite the fools 1.00

01:02:19.500 out of those 10-year-old girls. 1.00

01:02:21.180 And so,

01:02:22.960 now,

01:02:23.560 and this is what

01:02:24.180 I would like you

01:02:24.780 to speculate on.

01:02:26.200 Like,

01:02:26.580 what kind of mental gymnastics

01:02:28.200 do you think

01:02:29.000 you would have to perform

01:02:30.060 internally

01:02:30.640 so that if you did that

01:02:32.300 and you won,

01:02:33.560 you would think

01:02:34.360 that in any way

01:02:35.100 you were actually a winner?

01:02:37.440 You know what I mean?

01:02:38.380 Like,

01:02:38.560 how do you have to twist

01:02:39.480 and dement yourself

01:02:40.760 to the point

01:02:41.440 where you believe

01:02:43.140 that having done that

01:02:45.260 and accomplishing your aim,

01:02:46.740 which is the devastation

01:02:47.860 of your opponents,

01:02:48.920 that you're now someone

01:02:50.100 who can celebrate

01:02:51.620 themselves,

01:02:52.820 here's my trophy,

01:02:54.260 and that others celebrate,

01:02:56.980 and that anyone

01:02:58.440 who refuses to celebrate

01:02:59.980 is now bigoted.

01:03:01.560 So,

01:03:02.220 what kind of mental state

01:03:03.940 do you have to be in

01:03:04.780 to do that?

01:03:05.480 I think what that boils down to

01:03:07.300 is,

01:03:09.020 of course,

01:03:09.700 selfishness,

01:03:10.960 entitlement.

01:03:12.540 That's the word

01:03:13.380 I think of

01:03:13.960 when this whole

01:03:15.940 trans movement,

01:03:18.320 it's as if

01:03:19.180 they feel owed something,

01:03:21.840 they feel entitled

01:03:22.580 to winning,

01:03:23.840 and they have

01:03:24.840 an utter disregard

01:03:25.600 towards everyone else,

01:03:27.320 for everyone else's

01:03:28.460 happiness,

01:03:29.740 feelings,

01:03:30.340 safety,

01:03:30.860 privacy,

01:03:31.520 dignity,

01:03:32.540 as long as...

01:03:33.520 Discipline,

01:03:34.400 sacrifices,

01:03:35.440 as long as...

01:03:36.300 All of the things

01:03:37.060 that you put into this,

01:03:39.020 the thing that I find

01:03:39.960 so utterly appalling

01:03:40.940 about this,

01:03:42.020 although there's many things,

01:03:43.220 is that,

01:03:44.160 you know,

01:03:44.420 you really spent,

01:03:45.540 as you said,

01:03:46.240 18 years

01:03:47.420 preparing yourself for this,

01:03:49.400 and that came

01:03:50.400 at a non-trivial cost,

01:03:51.680 and I mean,

01:03:52.240 I'm not feeling sorry for you,

01:03:53.540 but what I am thinking

01:03:54.580 is,

01:03:54.820 well,

01:03:55.080 you know,

01:03:55.280 you were playing

01:03:55.740 a straight game,

01:03:56.960 and the consequence

01:03:57.680 of that was

01:03:58.580 that you were then

01:03:59.400 subjected to a crooked

01:04:00.520 championship,

01:04:01.580 like hyper,

01:04:02.620 hyper crooked, 0.98

01:04:04.080 hyper moralistic, 0.97

01:04:05.520 yeah,

01:04:05.780 and that you were

01:04:06.600 thrown into the ring

01:04:08.680 with someone

01:04:09.280 who's an unrepentant

01:04:10.700 narcissist,

01:04:11.760 and then,

01:04:12.600 because of your objections,

01:04:14.160 were also pilloried

01:04:15.360 morally,

01:04:16.440 which is just,

01:04:17.120 you know,

01:04:17.300 the icing on the cake.

01:04:18.360 Okay,

01:04:18.600 so now you find out

01:04:19.560 that Leah,

01:04:21.560 Will,

01:04:22.000 is a man,

01:04:24.600 not was,

01:04:25.740 but is a man,

01:04:27.320 and he's decided

01:04:28.620 that he's a woman,

01:04:29.440 and the people

01:04:30.080 who are enabling 1.00

01:04:30.700 this idiot, 1.00

01:04:31.980 narcissistic delusion 1.00

01:04:33.140 have also decided

01:04:34.100 that he's a man,

01:04:35.060 and so now,

01:04:36.040 you're facing him

01:04:37.040 in competition,

01:04:37.820 so what sort of

01:04:39.100 shock waves,

01:04:41.200 let's say,

01:04:41.640 does that send

01:04:42.400 through you psychologically,

01:04:44.000 but also through

01:04:44.620 your team?

01:04:46.160 It's,

01:04:47.460 swimming is,

01:04:48.820 of course,

01:04:49.080 a physical sport.

01:04:49.880 There's a lot of,

01:04:51.260 there's several

01:04:52.300 physical aspects

01:04:53.160 that go into it,

01:04:54.380 but just like any sport,

01:04:56.200 there's so much mental

01:04:57.560 that goes into it as well,

01:04:59.320 so I can't even tell you

01:05:01.440 what this distraction,

01:05:03.280 because that's ultimately,

01:05:04.900 take away the unfair

01:05:06.360 competition piece,

01:05:07.260 that's ultimately

01:05:07.800 what this was.

01:05:08.600 It was a huge distraction.

01:05:11.220 It was all anyone

01:05:12.340 could talk about.

01:05:13.160 There was so much

01:05:13.740 media attention,

01:05:14.680 which I think

01:05:15.500 we can all agree,

01:05:16.260 swimming is not a sport

01:05:17.120 that typically garners

01:05:18.180 media attention,

01:05:18.940 and there was

01:05:20.500 awkward whispers

01:05:22.440 on the pool deck

01:05:23.460 of people who felt

01:05:24.360 so uncomfortable

01:05:25.140 and wrong,

01:05:25.920 but didn't feel

01:05:26.600 comfortable enough

01:05:27.360 to say it loudly.

01:05:29.480 There was side eyes,

01:05:31.200 eye movements,

01:05:31.980 there was so much

01:05:33.420 that just kind of

01:05:34.620 made you feel

01:05:35.200 as if you were living

01:05:36.000 in this twilight zone.

01:05:38.640 So that's what

01:05:39.860 that piece looked like

01:05:40.980 from the mental aspect.

01:05:43.960 So what do you mean

01:05:44.680 living in,

01:05:45.160 what do you mean

01:05:45.700 living in a twilight zone?

01:05:46.980 What was that like

01:05:47.760 psychologically?

01:05:48.320 I have a specific reason

01:05:49.480 for this,

01:05:49.960 which I'll tell you about,

01:05:50.800 but what do you mean

01:05:51.540 it was like a twilight zone?

01:05:54.060 It felt as if,

01:05:55.160 in my perspective,

01:05:56.560 two years ago,

01:05:58.520 maybe,

01:05:59.440 a man enters

01:06:00.460 a woman's locker room,

01:06:01.400 he's immediately arrested

01:06:02.360 and charged with voyeurism

01:06:03.900 and decent exposure,

01:06:04.880 sexual harassment.

01:06:05.900 I'm sure the list

01:06:06.740 could go on.

01:06:07.820 But now,

01:06:08.800 not only was it happening,

01:06:11.020 it was being celebrated,

01:06:13.200 it was being encouraged.

01:06:14.080 It just felt as if

01:06:15.860 so quickly,

01:06:17.200 again,

01:06:17.500 maybe I was naive

01:06:18.400 to how rapidly

01:06:21.240 this was happening

01:06:22.440 or if this had been

01:06:23.360 happening for a while

01:06:24.440 and now kind of

01:06:25.300 doing more research

01:06:26.120 and studying up on this,

01:06:27.340 I realize

01:06:28.040 it happened quick

01:06:30.260 in a sense,

01:06:30.820 but this has been,

01:06:31.760 it's been happening

01:06:33.260 for a while.

01:06:34.360 This was their ultimate goal

01:06:35.740 for a while now.

01:06:36.540 So there's a,

01:06:39.560 there's a marker

01:06:40.400 for traumatic stress,

01:06:42.320 by the way.

01:06:43.720 One of the markers

01:06:44.560 for traumatic stress

01:06:45.700 is a phenomenon

01:06:46.640 called derealization.

01:06:49.080 And so if something

01:06:49.980 happens to you

01:06:50.860 and you can't believe

01:06:53.560 it's happening,

01:06:54.780 then that's a marker

01:06:56.620 for the development

01:06:58.580 of traumatic stress disorders.

01:07:00.580 Now,

01:07:00.740 it's not a variable marker,

01:07:02.080 but it's a pretty good marker.

01:07:03.940 And so you're talking

01:07:05.480 about a situation

01:07:06.300 where you'd played

01:07:07.780 a straight game

01:07:08.620 and were in a straight game

01:07:10.200 for 18 years.

01:07:11.680 And then one of the most

01:07:12.940 fundamental rules

01:07:14.300 of the game

01:07:14.900 was flipped.

01:07:16.180 And not only

01:07:16.900 with regards to swimming,

01:07:18.760 and that's not nothing

01:07:19.800 because you devoted

01:07:20.640 your life to it

01:07:21.400 and so had your other,

01:07:22.560 so had your teammates,

01:07:23.700 but also with regards

01:07:25.060 to the locker room.

01:07:26.100 Because right,

01:07:26.520 there's two things

01:07:27.120 going on here.

01:07:27.820 Not only are you competing

01:07:29.220 against Will Thomas,

01:07:31.760 who now calls himself

01:07:33.060 Leah 1.00

01:07:33.360 and has his idiot acolytes 1.00

01:07:35.900 going along with that, 1.00

01:07:37.080 but there's the locker room

01:07:38.260 issue too.

01:07:39.740 So,

01:07:40.380 let's fast forward

01:07:41.880 to the competition itself.

01:07:43.280 Tell me about

01:07:43.840 the locker room situation

01:07:45.120 and then also tell me

01:07:46.260 about what it was like

01:07:47.640 to compete

01:07:48.220 that day.

01:07:50.940 I'll start by kind of

01:07:52.100 filling you in

01:07:52.520 on the competition.

01:07:54.000 So that first day

01:07:55.040 of competition

01:07:55.860 was,

01:07:57.540 I don't have any events

01:07:59.540 that fall on this day,

01:08:00.540 so this was a day

01:08:01.180 that I didn't compete.

01:08:02.720 But this was,

01:08:03.460 the 500 freestyle

01:08:04.320 was one of the events,

01:08:05.360 which was the event

01:08:06.260 that Leah swam

01:08:07.500 the first day.

01:08:10.140 Again,

01:08:10.620 being an event

01:08:11.120 I didn't compete in,

01:08:12.040 I got to sit on the side

01:08:12.880 of the pool

01:08:13.220 and watch this.

01:08:14.320 And if you don't know

01:08:15.660 how swimming works

01:08:16.520 at this level,

01:08:18.200 you swim in the morning,

01:08:19.300 you have to swim prelims,

01:08:20.960 but you have to qualify

01:08:21.760 for finals

01:08:22.520 to come back

01:08:23.720 and swim again at night.

01:08:24.720 So top 16,

01:08:26.300 make it back

01:08:26.840 and swim again.

01:08:28.260 And so,

01:08:28.860 I'm watching prelims

01:08:29.800 in the morning.

01:08:31.140 And I,

01:08:32.500 there's several heats,

01:08:33.360 maybe eight or so heats.

01:08:34.700 And so,

01:08:35.560 this girl comes up 1.00

01:08:36.760 next to me.

01:08:37.200 She had just swam

01:08:37.880 in one of the earlier heats.

01:08:39.860 She,

01:08:40.240 her name is Rekha.

01:08:41.040 She swam for Virginia Tech.

01:08:42.380 She's a fifth year.

01:08:43.240 Because of COVID,

01:08:43.840 we got an extra year

01:08:44.620 of eligibility

01:08:45.180 to which she took.

01:08:46.880 She was from Hungary.

01:08:48.480 And she stayed in the U.S.

01:08:49.620 I asked her,

01:08:50.080 I was like,

01:08:50.360 why did you take

01:08:51.440 your fifth year?

01:08:51.980 And she said,

01:08:52.820 I've wanted to become

01:08:54.000 an All-American.

01:08:55.720 And so,

01:08:56.300 she was standing next to me.

01:08:57.720 She was out of breath.

01:08:58.880 Her heart rate was high.

01:09:00.220 And she was watching

01:09:01.100 the result board

01:09:01.980 to see if she made top 16.

01:09:04.240 And she realizes

01:09:05.320 as the last heat

01:09:06.280 dives in the water,

01:09:07.440 which this is the heat

01:09:08.520 that Leah is swimming in

01:09:10.020 in the morning,

01:09:11.120 she realizes

01:09:11.940 she's going to be

01:09:12.540 right on the cusp

01:09:13.640 of making it back.

01:09:15.820 She watches.

01:09:17.520 Leah dominates,

01:09:19.540 beats everyone

01:09:20.120 in the water

01:09:20.640 by seconds,

01:09:21.640 which in swimming,

01:09:23.460 even one second

01:09:24.360 is a ton.

01:09:25.740 But Leah beat everyone 1.00

01:09:26.920 in the water

01:09:27.400 by multiple seconds,

01:09:29.020 body lengths.

01:09:29.900 And these are Olympians.

01:09:31.080 These are the most impressive

01:09:32.480 female swimmers 0.98

01:09:33.140 of all time.

01:09:34.760 But again,

01:09:35.440 beats everyone.

01:09:37.000 Rekha looks up

01:09:37.640 to the result board

01:09:38.480 and she realized

01:09:39.860 she placed 17th.

01:09:41.500 And I knew her relatively.

01:09:43.960 I didn't know her well,

01:09:45.160 but I knew her name.

01:09:46.700 And we're standing

01:09:47.580 next to each other

01:09:48.180 and she grabs me,

01:09:49.840 grabs my hand,

01:09:50.880 looks at me

01:09:51.300 with tears

01:09:51.980 coming down her face.

01:09:53.780 And this is when

01:09:54.540 my feelings shifted

01:09:55.440 because up until this point,

01:09:56.660 I felt kind of mad,

01:09:58.260 just confused.

01:09:59.200 I felt mad

01:09:59.920 that the NCAA frustrated.

01:10:01.520 They didn't see it

01:10:02.260 how I saw it.

01:10:03.860 But she grabbed my hand,

01:10:05.000 tears rolling down her face,

01:10:06.500 and she says,

01:10:07.240 I just got beat

01:10:07.900 by someone

01:10:08.380 who didn't even have to try.

01:10:10.460 And that's when

01:10:11.280 my feelings shifted

01:10:12.600 to heartbreak.

01:10:14.200 Seeing how this affected her,

01:10:15.940 knowing she put in

01:10:16.820 the same work

01:10:17.880 to a level that I did,

01:10:19.920 knowing she stayed

01:10:21.100 an extra year

01:10:21.820 from her home country

01:10:22.800 in Hungary

01:10:23.260 and the States

01:10:23.980 so she could achieve

01:10:25.180 this goal.

01:10:25.720 And she just had that

01:10:26.400 stripped from her.

01:10:28.080 And again,

01:10:28.880 that's when it felt like

01:10:30.160 I'd been punched in the gut.

01:10:31.740 And so we come back

01:10:32.500 that night

01:10:33.000 and of course,

01:10:34.500 Leah Thomas swims

01:10:35.360 to a national title,

01:10:37.060 beating everyone.

01:10:37.900 The time Leah went this year

01:10:39.660 would have beat

01:10:40.080 everyone in the country again.

01:10:41.480 Or sorry,

01:10:42.000 the time Leah went last year

01:10:43.000 would have beat

01:10:43.360 everyone in the country

01:10:44.140 again this year

01:10:45.120 by seconds.

01:10:47.820 So Leah became

01:10:50.460 the first male

01:10:51.220 to win a national title

01:10:52.300 for on the women's side.

01:10:54.740 That next day of competition,

01:10:56.920 this was the day

01:10:58.140 that Thomas and I

01:10:59.200 competed against each other

01:11:00.160 in the 200 freestyle.

01:11:03.560 We both swam in the morning.

01:11:05.680 We qualified top eight.

01:11:06.700 We came back that evening

01:11:07.740 and we raced.

01:11:10.320 And almost impossibly enough,

01:11:12.920 we tied.

01:11:14.140 So we went the exact same time

01:11:16.120 down to the hundredth

01:11:17.080 of a second,

01:11:17.960 which I won't say

01:11:19.360 never happens in swimming,

01:11:20.720 but that's rare, right?

01:11:22.300 To touch the wall

01:11:23.220 at the exact same time.

01:11:25.440 And so we actually tied

01:11:27.880 for fifth place.

01:11:29.240 It wasn't a best time

01:11:30.520 for either of us.

01:11:32.720 I didn't perform my best

01:11:34.180 and Thomas,

01:11:35.660 I can speculate.

01:11:37.860 I like how you use that word.

01:11:39.200 I can speculate

01:11:39.820 in a minute

01:11:40.560 about what I think.

01:11:43.280 But we go behind

01:11:44.300 the awards podium

01:11:44.940 after our race

01:11:45.740 and the NCAA official

01:11:46.920 looks at both Thomas

01:11:48.100 and myself

01:11:48.620 and says,

01:11:49.120 great job.

01:11:49.900 You guys tied.

01:11:51.260 We don't really account

01:11:53.240 for ties in terms of trophies.

01:11:54.960 We only have one.

01:11:56.040 So that trophy goes to Leah.

01:11:58.260 And so I was,

01:11:59.220 of course,

01:11:59.660 taken aback by this.

01:12:01.820 Not because I wanted

01:12:03.060 the tangible trophy.

01:12:04.620 I'm a 12-time All-American,

01:12:05.940 so I have lots of those.

01:12:08.520 But it was the principle

01:12:09.760 of him outright

01:12:10.820 looking at me

01:12:11.660 as if it didn't matter

01:12:13.300 and telling me

01:12:13.940 that Leah got the trophy.

01:12:15.940 And so I questioned him.

01:12:16.560 And so what was

01:12:17.040 the justification?

01:12:17.980 Yeah, exactly.

01:12:18.920 What the hell's

01:12:19.540 the justification

01:12:20.040 for that decision?

01:12:21.620 I questioned him.

01:12:22.260 At minimum,

01:12:23.060 you'd expect a coin toss

01:12:24.860 or something like that

01:12:25.820 to randomize it.

01:12:26.940 So what the hell's

01:12:27.640 going on there exactly?

01:12:29.000 And I asked exactly that.

01:12:30.560 I said,

01:12:30.880 you know,

01:12:31.160 why?

01:12:32.120 I understand we tied.

01:12:33.440 I understand there's one trophy,

01:12:34.920 but why are you adamant

01:12:35.860 on Thomas having this trophy?

01:12:38.040 And he was not prepared

01:12:39.520 to answer this.

01:12:40.920 They hadn't been questioned.

01:12:42.180 And when I say they,

01:12:43.040 I mean the NCAA.

01:12:44.200 They hadn't been questioned

01:12:45.120 for anything

01:12:45.620 they had done thus far.

01:12:47.640 So he kind of stumbled

01:12:48.800 on his words

01:12:49.560 and said,

01:12:50.640 oh, well,

01:12:51.420 we're just doing this

01:12:52.460 in chronological order.

01:12:53.780 To which I press back again.

01:12:55.880 Okay.

01:12:56.660 I said,

01:12:57.340 what are you being

01:12:58.080 chronological about?

01:12:59.240 Because we tied.

01:13:00.700 And if you're referring

01:13:01.620 to our names,

01:13:03.320 I'm certain

01:13:04.060 that G comes before T.

01:13:06.140 So what are you

01:13:07.080 being chronological about?

01:13:08.620 To which he didn't

01:13:09.500 have an answer.

01:13:10.240 And he says back,

01:13:11.040 well,

01:13:11.980 Leah has to have

01:13:13.680 the trophy for photos.

01:13:15.280 You can pose

01:13:16.280 with this one,

01:13:17.080 but you'll have

01:13:17.540 to give it back.

01:13:18.360 And you go home

01:13:19.160 empty-handed

01:13:19.700 and Leah takes

01:13:20.560 the trophy home.

01:13:21.380 We can eventually

01:13:22.020 mail you.

01:13:22.500 Oh, so Leah has to have, 0.97

01:13:23.640 Leah has to have

01:13:25.940 the trophy for photos.

01:13:28.340 Okay.

01:13:28.600 So that's the rationale.

01:13:29.620 Okay.

01:13:29.780 So let's just delve

01:13:30.920 into that for a second.

01:13:32.180 So now I'm going

01:13:33.700 to put myself

01:13:34.440 in Leah Thomas'

01:13:36.460 place,

01:13:36.900 in Will Thomas'

01:13:37.760 place.

01:13:38.060 and I'm going

01:13:38.520 to think,

01:13:39.640 well,

01:13:40.600 you know,

01:13:40.880 I'm six foot four

01:13:41.880 and I'm a man

01:13:43.380 and I just tied

01:13:44.240 this young woman

01:13:45.680 who's been working

01:13:47.800 her whole life

01:13:48.500 to become a fast swimmer.

01:13:50.480 And comparatively speaking,

01:13:52.100 she's a much faster 0.93

01:13:53.020 swimmer than me

01:13:53.740 because I was

01:13:54.400 462nd among my peers

01:13:57.660 and she's third.

01:13:58.840 And so,

01:13:59.420 and now I've tied her

01:14:00.800 and now these people

01:14:01.960 have come up

01:14:02.660 and they're arbitrarily

01:14:04.180 going to award

01:14:05.040 a trophy to me

01:14:05.960 even though there's

01:14:06.940 no evidence

01:14:07.600 that I deserved it.

01:14:09.320 At best,

01:14:09.860 there's a 50% crack,

01:14:12.940 50% chance

01:14:14.480 that I'm the deserving

01:14:15.580 party here.

01:14:16.720 So what that would mean

01:14:18.840 is that if Leah Thomas

01:14:20.200 was being a proper gentleman,

01:14:22.140 let's say,

01:14:23.320 he would have done

01:14:24.200 one of two things.

01:14:25.120 He would have said,

01:14:26.580 well,

01:14:27.180 we have to flip a coin

01:14:28.400 or I won't take the trophy

01:14:31.820 or he would have said,

01:14:33.780 well,

01:14:34.800 I'm not going to take the trophy

01:14:36.080 because it's unfair

01:14:36.940 that you give it to me

01:14:38.680 under these circumstances.

01:14:40.180 And yet,

01:14:41.220 he did neither.

01:14:42.840 Instead,

01:14:43.260 he took the trophy

01:14:43.940 and he went and posed 1.00

01:14:45.000 for the damn photographs. 1.00

01:14:47.200 And so, 1.00

01:14:47.740 it's very difficult

01:14:48.700 for me as a clinician

01:14:49.700 to see anything

01:14:50.540 in that other than

01:14:51.680 all the hallmarks

01:14:53.020 of extraordinarily narcissistic

01:14:54.780 and entitled behavior

01:14:56.180 because it is such

01:14:57.780 a violation,

01:14:58.900 a violation of,

01:15:00.780 what would you say,

01:15:01.900 the minimum professional

01:15:03.860 athletic standards

01:15:04.900 that it's a kind of miracle.

01:15:06.840 And the fact that

01:15:07.700 the NCAA would promote

01:15:09.920 that kind of pathological

01:15:12.240 narcissistic behavior

01:15:14.200 is really quite

01:15:15.580 the bloody miracle.

01:15:17.280 So,

01:15:17.740 and anyways,

01:15:18.340 that's what happened.

01:15:19.540 So now he's out there,

01:15:20.900 what,

01:15:21.820 parading around

01:15:22.560 with this trophy,

01:15:24.980 towering over the girls.

01:15:26.920 and we are watching him

01:15:29.380 do this,

01:15:29.880 like, 0.87

01:15:30.080 what the hell 0.97

01:15:30.500 are you thinking? 0.72

01:15:31.500 Is he actually

01:15:32.460 enjoying himself?

01:15:33.600 Like,

01:15:34.020 it's so preposterous,

01:15:35.220 right?

01:15:35.380 Because I can't,

01:15:36.020 I just can't imagine 0.99

01:15:36.940 how anybody can be foolish 0.99

01:15:38.260 enough to think 0.93

01:15:39.000 that what they've done

01:15:40.600 actually constitutes

01:15:41.520 an accomplishment.

01:15:42.660 And then to get all

01:15:43.440 that false attention,

01:15:45.960 you're such a hero,

01:15:47.360 you've made such sacrifices,

01:15:49.820 it's all,

01:15:50.700 it's lies

01:15:51.700 at every single level

01:15:53.220 of analysis,

01:15:53.840 and yet

01:15:54.740 he's basking

01:15:55.840 in the glory,

01:15:57.120 you know,

01:15:57.360 and also claiming

01:15:58.060 that anybody

01:15:58.540 who might object

01:15:59.380 is nothing but,

01:16:00.340 you know, 0.99

01:16:00.540 a prejudiced bully 0.93

01:16:01.500 when in fact

01:16:02.160 he's 100%

01:16:04.200 and obviously

01:16:05.500 the bully

01:16:06.180 abetted by the NCAA.

01:16:08.720 So you're watching this, 0.75

01:16:09.880 what the hell 0.90

01:16:10.380 are you thinking? 0.99

01:16:11.020 It felt as if

01:16:13.300 I had been reduced

01:16:15.040 down to a photo op.

01:16:16.540 That's how I felt.

01:16:17.460 I felt like,

01:16:18.920 again,

01:16:19.480 everything that I'd worked

01:16:20.880 my entire life for

01:16:22.280 was reduced

01:16:23.760 to this photo opportunity

01:16:25.840 to validate

01:16:26.880 the feelings

01:16:27.820 of a male

01:16:28.640 at the expense

01:16:29.480 of my own,

01:16:30.060 not just my own,

01:16:30.800 every female swimmer 0.99

01:16:31.660 at that meet.

01:16:33.020 It felt as if,

01:16:34.760 of course,

01:16:35.620 I understand

01:16:36.280 the implications

01:16:36.880 of Title IX,

01:16:38.200 which was just

01:16:39.160 to ensure

01:16:40.160 equal opportunities

01:16:41.040 and prevent discrimination

01:16:42.020 on the basis of sex.

01:16:45.000 It felt as if

01:16:46.060 we were totally

01:16:46.700 throwing it out

01:16:47.400 of the window

01:16:47.840 in that moment.

01:16:48.880 We were doing a 180

01:16:50.240 in the guise

01:16:51.280 of being progressive.

01:16:52.500 We were moving forward.

01:16:53.440 This is progress.

01:16:54.740 This is not progress.

01:16:56.140 This is taking us back

01:16:57.280 at least 50 years in time,

01:16:58.980 51 years in time

01:17:00.000 to 1972

01:17:01.200 when Title IX

01:17:01.980 was enacted.

01:17:03.040 This is not progress.

01:17:04.820 How can we sit here

01:17:05.680 and actually say

01:17:06.680 that women losing out

01:17:07.740 on opportunities

01:17:08.540 women losing spots 1.00

01:17:10.200 on the podium

01:17:10.720 to a male 0.57

01:17:11.400 is progress?

01:17:13.080 That is

01:17:13.760 quite literally

01:17:15.020 the opposite.

01:17:16.140 That's how I felt.

01:17:17.220 I felt as if

01:17:18.180 it was at this point,

01:17:19.920 truthfully,

01:17:20.360 when I realized

01:17:20.940 I was fed up

01:17:21.720 because I knew

01:17:23.340 up until this point,

01:17:24.680 I knew the unfair

01:17:25.640 competition was wrong.

01:17:26.780 This wasn't,

01:17:27.460 this wasn't trivial.

01:17:29.820 I knew this.

01:17:30.820 I knew the locker room

01:17:31.940 was long,

01:17:32.740 which I know

01:17:33.240 I'm going to touch on

01:17:34.320 because I think

01:17:34.820 it's important.

01:17:35.780 I knew that was wrong.

01:17:36.700 But this piece,

01:17:39.420 this whole trophy incident,

01:17:41.120 and again,

01:17:41.460 it wasn't about

01:17:42.000 the tangible trophy

01:17:42.900 for me.

01:17:43.540 It wasn't about

01:17:44.380 something as simple

01:17:46.540 as holding it.

01:17:47.580 That's,

01:17:48.040 it was the principle

01:17:48.760 behind it.

01:17:50.740 So, okay,

01:17:51.580 so a couple,

01:17:52.320 now it sounds to me,

01:17:53.600 you know,

01:17:53.820 because part of me

01:17:54.420 thinks,

01:17:55.380 well,

01:17:55.640 I have no idea

01:17:56.520 why the women's team, 0.98

01:17:58.680 your women's team,

01:17:59.460 for example,

01:18:00.500 agreed to compete

01:18:02.160 against Leah Thomas

01:18:03.400 to begin with.

01:18:04.080 Now,

01:18:04.220 I'm going to modify

01:18:05.380 that a bit.

01:18:06.460 I think the reason,

01:18:08.080 in all likelihood,

01:18:08.900 that you agreed

01:18:09.500 is because

01:18:10.000 you guys were confused

01:18:11.760 and you didn't know

01:18:12.440 what was,

01:18:12.880 hell was going on

01:18:13.820 and you couldn't believe it.

01:18:15.080 And so I think

01:18:15.800 you were thrown

01:18:16.300 into a situation

01:18:17.240 that required

01:18:18.040 more preparation

01:18:20.320 and philosophical finesse

01:18:23.020 than would have been

01:18:24.180 reasonable to expect

01:18:25.420 from you.

01:18:26.140 But I have been struck

01:18:27.500 by the fact

01:18:28.580 that

01:18:29.000 the vast majority

01:18:31.160 of female athletes

01:18:32.180 seem willing to,

01:18:33.280 they're no worse

01:18:35.120 than university professors

01:18:36.280 on the woke front,

01:18:37.320 by the way.

01:18:37.780 It's the same bloody thing.

01:18:39.120 But it is striking to me

01:18:40.500 because

01:18:40.880 it isn't the least bit

01:18:43.300 unreasonable

01:18:43.780 for the female athletes 0.94

01:18:45.080 just to get together

01:18:46.460 and say,

01:18:48.260 well,

01:18:48.560 we're not competing

01:18:49.420 against men.

01:18:50.600 Like, period.

01:18:51.340 If you want to do that,

01:18:52.300 we're not going to

01:18:53.260 attend the meets.

01:18:54.020 We're not going to 1.00

01:18:55.040 play that idiot game. 1.00

01:18:56.940 And so, 1.00

01:18:57.840 now you've decided

01:18:58.940 in many ways

01:19:01.080 not to play that game

01:19:02.780 but you're obviously

01:19:04.840 still representing

01:19:07.260 at least formally

01:19:09.300 a minority position.

01:19:10.520 I know that behind the scenes

01:19:11.640 like the probability

01:19:12.960 that the vast majority

01:19:14.660 of female athletes

01:19:15.580 feel that this is a travesty,

01:19:18.040 you know,

01:19:18.280 unless they're doing 1.00

01:19:19.300 some idiot woke virtue 1.00

01:19:20.720 signaling at their own expense. 1.00

01:19:22.300 That's 100%.

01:19:23.420 But

01:19:24.280 why do you think

01:19:26.620 that

01:19:26.880 people who are doing

01:19:28.700 what you're doing

01:19:29.540 given the vast

01:19:31.680 and self-evident

01:19:32.840 injustice

01:19:33.380 of this situation,

01:19:34.420 why do you think

01:19:35.000 they're so rare?

01:19:36.040 And why in the world

01:19:37.080 are you different?

01:19:39.140 It's,

01:19:40.100 I think they're rare

01:19:41.020 for a couple reasons

01:19:42.180 and these are some pieces

01:19:43.540 I want to touch on.

01:19:45.140 One,

01:19:46.100 the silencing aspect

01:19:47.640 that has gone into this.

01:19:49.900 I've talked to

01:19:50.820 many of Leah Thomas'

01:19:51.800 teammates

01:19:52.140 at great lengths.

01:19:53.080 one of which

01:19:53.700 only just this week

01:19:54.820 has alerted me

01:19:56.660 she's really ready

01:19:57.540 to use her name

01:19:59.280 behind speaking out.

01:20:01.000 It's taken her

01:20:01.760 a full year

01:20:02.340 to recover

01:20:02.940 from everything

01:20:04.700 and when I'm talking

01:20:05.560 to her

01:20:05.980 I'm asking her,

01:20:07.760 you know,

01:20:08.500 why are you

01:20:10.000 so scared?

01:20:11.520 What they went through

01:20:13.040 is

01:20:14.700 nothing short

01:20:16.660 of chilling.

01:20:17.580 I mean,

01:20:17.840 it's truthfully scary

01:20:19.340 to think of the suppression.

01:20:21.440 They were forced

01:20:22.400 to go every week

01:20:23.220 to mandatory

01:20:23.840 LGBTQ education meetings

01:20:25.740 to learn about how

01:20:26.700 just by being cisgender

01:20:28.440 they were oppressing

01:20:29.940 Leah Thomas.

01:20:31.740 Yeah,

01:20:32.020 how long per week

01:20:34.560 did they have to attend

01:20:35.740 the Maoist

01:20:36.460 re-education camps?

01:20:38.200 Do you know what?

01:20:39.020 I'm not sure

01:20:39.720 what the time looked like

01:20:41.020 but they alerted me

01:20:41.940 it was every week

01:20:42.800 they had to go.

01:20:44.040 Oh yeah,

01:20:44.540 oh yeah,

01:20:45.160 that's good.

01:20:45.820 I see.

01:20:46.400 So not only

01:20:47.180 did they get

01:20:47.800 to be defeated

01:20:48.580 unfairly

01:20:49.280 but they had

01:20:49.820 to go learn

01:20:50.340 about how

01:20:50.820 immoral they were

01:20:51.900 for being annoyed

01:20:52.620 about it.

01:20:53.680 Well,

01:20:53.880 that's exactly

01:20:54.740 because when they

01:20:55.460 sent an email

01:20:55.960 to their administration

01:20:56.860 expressing,

01:20:58.360 along with their

01:20:58.840 parents on the email,

01:21:00.060 expressing their

01:21:00.820 discomfort in the

01:21:01.700 locker room,

01:21:03.140 their administration

01:21:03.860 responded back with,

01:21:04.940 if you feel

01:21:05.780 uncomfortable 0.83

01:21:06.260 seeing male genitalia 0.99

01:21:07.340 in your locker room, 0.99

01:21:08.400 here are some

01:21:08.860 counseling resources

01:21:09.680 that you should seek.

01:21:11.700 They were told

01:21:12.620 that they are not

01:21:13.340 allowed to

01:21:14.540 take a stance

01:21:15.880 because their school

01:21:16.700 has already taken

01:21:17.420 their stance for them.

01:21:18.620 They were told

01:21:19.360 you will never get a job,

01:21:20.620 you will never get

01:21:21.200 into grad school,

01:21:21.960 you will lose

01:21:22.400 all your friends,

01:21:23.720 you'll lose playing time,

01:21:24.820 you'll lose your scholarship

01:21:25.620 if you speak out.

01:21:27.000 They were told

01:21:27.500 that if you happen

01:21:28.220 to speak out

01:21:29.040 and any harm

01:21:30.220 whatsoever

01:21:30.780 comes toward

01:21:31.760 Leah Thomas' way,

01:21:32.860 whether that be

01:21:33.560 physical harm,

01:21:34.620 emotional harm,

01:21:35.660 whatever that looked like,

01:21:37.200 then they were

01:21:37.820 solely responsible,

01:21:39.540 which that's a big weight

01:21:40.400 to put on anyone.

01:21:41.160 These girls were 1.00

01:21:41.660 emotionally blackmailed.

01:21:43.360 They were gaslit

01:21:44.220 into making themselves

01:21:46.720 feel wrong

01:21:48.140 for feeling

01:21:49.020 as if they wanted

01:21:49.920 fair competition,

01:21:51.520 which is traumatizing,

01:21:53.660 right?

01:21:53.900 I mean, these girls—

01:21:54.700 Who is this teammate?

01:21:56.700 Or can you reveal

01:21:57.500 her name yet or not?

01:21:58.840 I don't know

01:21:59.240 if she wants me

01:21:59.820 to reveal her name.

01:22:00.840 Yeah, okay.

01:22:01.580 There are several—

01:22:02.600 I'll track that down separately.

01:22:04.240 Yeah, okay.

01:22:04.740 Well, I'm not done

01:22:05.540 with this yet.

01:22:06.320 Of them,

01:22:06.800 and I think

01:22:07.960 you would be

01:22:08.320 a great outlet

01:22:09.000 for her

01:22:09.800 to even just

01:22:11.020 converse with behind the scenes.

01:22:13.460 Tell her I'll talk to her

01:22:13.740 whenever she wants.

01:22:14.860 Yep.

01:22:15.100 This girl in particular,

01:22:16.360 actually,

01:22:17.040 she disclosed to me

01:22:19.580 again privately

01:22:20.200 that when she was

01:22:21.200 in high school, 0.85

01:22:22.300 she was raped, 0.90

01:22:23.640 which again 0.98

01:22:25.100 is traumatic.

01:22:26.640 And when she began

01:22:27.740 to share that

01:22:28.240 locker room space

01:22:29.100 with Leah,

01:22:30.500 who would,

01:22:31.380 she disclosed,

01:22:32.520 shower in their locker rooms,

01:22:34.380 would undress,

01:22:35.280 of course,

01:22:36.400 fully exposed

01:22:37.240 in their locker rooms.

01:22:39.220 That was very— 1.00

01:22:40.180 He's quite the scum— 1.00

01:22:41.180 He's quite the scum rat, 1.00

01:22:42.480 all things considered. 1.00

01:22:43.440 No, I'm dead serious

01:22:44.660 about that.

01:22:45.200 There is 100%.

01:22:46.500 No excuse for that.

01:22:48.400 And what those

01:22:49.080 administrators did

01:22:50.380 to the teammates

01:22:51.320 of Leah Thomas

01:22:52.060 is it goes

01:22:53.540 way beyond immoral.

01:22:55.280 It verges on—

01:22:56.540 It's evil.

01:22:57.660 It verges on criminal.

01:22:58.860 Oh, man,

01:22:59.320 it's really something.

01:23:00.240 But this girl,

01:23:01.040 when she—

01:23:02.840 Go ahead.

01:23:03.940 With her background 0.91

01:23:04.860 in being sexually assaulted,

01:23:05.920 she went to her coach

01:23:07.120 immediately and said,

01:23:08.040 this is really hard for me.

01:23:09.640 Is there something

01:23:10.300 we can do?

01:23:10.920 And he said,

01:23:11.280 I'm sorry,

01:23:11.700 you have to be inclusive.

01:23:13.700 That's what they were doing

01:23:14.980 to these girls.

01:23:16.800 So that's why

01:23:17.880 a lot of

01:23:18.680 these girls 0.99

01:23:19.820 are terrified.

01:23:20.220 Did you watch

01:23:20.980 what happened

01:23:21.560 to Nicola Sturgeon,

01:23:23.420 the Prime Minister

01:23:24.300 of Scotland,

01:23:25.280 when she tried

01:23:25.780 to be inclusive

01:23:26.760 with the serial rapists?

01:23:28.120 Absolutely.

01:23:28.840 Turns out

01:23:29.280 there are some people

01:23:30.140 you just can't be

01:23:31.040 that inclusive with. 0.98

01:23:32.180 And psychopathic 1.00

01:23:33.620 serial rapists 0.99

01:23:34.780 who are claiming 1.00

01:23:35.360 to be women

01:23:36.840 so they can get

01:23:37.660 access to women? 1.00

01:23:39.260 Turns out

01:23:39.860 sharing a locker room

01:23:40.840 with them

01:23:41.200 is probably not

01:23:42.100 in anyone's best interest.

01:23:43.040 It's not kind.

01:23:43.640 Isn't that a shock?

01:23:44.700 No.

01:23:45.080 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:23:46.180 No, it's really

01:23:46.820 quite something.

01:23:47.560 Yeah, so let her know.

01:23:48.360 I'd be happy to talk to her.

01:23:49.320 And if she wants

01:23:49.820 to round up

01:23:50.460 a couple of her teammates,

01:23:51.660 we could do

01:23:52.180 a nice podcast.

01:23:53.260 They would love that.

01:23:53.960 And lay bare everything

01:23:54.860 that—well, let's do it, man.

01:23:56.200 We'll lay bare everything 1.00

01:23:57.420 the idiot, 1.00

01:23:58.600 virtue-signaling, 1.00

01:23:59.560 woke administration

01:24:00.480 laid on them

01:24:01.300 when they were doing

01:24:01.900 nothing but trying

01:24:02.620 to defend themselves.

01:24:03.720 Absolutely.

01:24:05.000 Okay, okay.

01:24:05.820 So let's talk about

01:24:06.520 the locker room situation.

01:24:07.900 So now,

01:24:08.480 not only are you

01:24:09.520 and your teammates

01:24:11.420 being stomped 0.96

01:24:12.240 by this second-rate male 0.99

01:24:14.140 who is narcissistically

01:24:15.540 claiming to be a female 0.54

01:24:16.600 so he can get his photo ops

01:24:18.520 and aggrandize himself,

01:24:19.920 but you have to share

01:24:21.060 a locker room

01:24:21.700 with him as well. 0.89

01:24:23.420 So what the hell

01:24:25.320 do you think's going on

01:24:26.320 in his mind

01:24:27.100 when he's stripping down

01:24:28.800 next to these women, 1.00

01:24:30.240 apart from the fact

01:24:31.020 that he's extremely

01:24:31.740 fortunate to be there,

01:24:32.980 let's say.

01:24:34.040 But no, seriously,

01:24:35.480 though,

01:24:35.600 what do you think's

01:24:36.280 going on with him?

01:24:37.040 Like, how is he acting?

01:24:38.180 How is he behaving?

01:24:39.360 Does he have the good graces

01:24:40.520 to at least look

01:24:41.420 somewhat embarrassed?

01:24:42.580 Does he go change

01:24:43.940 somewhere where

01:24:44.720 he can't be seen,

01:24:45.640 or is he right there

01:24:46.320 out in the open

01:24:46.960 flaunting his package,

01:24:48.420 let's say?

01:24:48.900 He was in the open.

01:24:50.860 Granted,

01:24:51.620 in a corner,

01:24:52.760 relatively,

01:24:54.080 as if that's supposed

01:24:55.760 to make anything better.

01:24:56.880 It doesn't.

01:24:58.220 But I'll kind of

01:24:58.960 set the scene.

01:25:00.560 First of all,

01:25:01.140 swimming locker room

01:25:01.920 is not necessarily

01:25:03.040 a place of modesty.

01:25:05.860 Locker rooms are

01:25:06.720 uncomfortable in general

01:25:07.640 for anyone,

01:25:09.280 bar adding someone

01:25:10.660 of the opposite sex 1.00

01:25:11.480 into that space.

01:25:13.060 But growing up a swimmer,

01:25:14.980 you almost feel

01:25:16.080 comfortable being vulnerable.

01:25:18.900 in that environment.

01:25:20.740 These suits you put on,

01:25:22.240 they're skin tight,

01:25:23.380 so it takes about

01:25:24.040 15 minutes to really

01:25:25.420 tuck and poke

01:25:26.920 and prod yourself

01:25:28.460 into these suits,

01:25:29.660 15 minutes of which

01:25:30.480 you're fully exposed.

01:25:32.580 But this locker room,

01:25:33.500 it's also a place

01:25:34.140 of buzzing and chatter.

01:25:35.920 You get to see

01:25:36.380 your friends from

01:25:37.040 all over the country

01:25:37.800 who you haven't seen

01:25:38.740 all year.

01:25:40.440 It's an exciting place.

01:25:42.260 Lots of talking,

01:25:43.320 lots of laughing.

01:25:46.120 But I can't even tell you

01:25:48.020 the dead silence

01:25:51.340 in the room

01:25:52.900 when all of a sudden,

01:25:56.040 well, first,

01:25:56.640 it got silent.

01:25:57.620 I turn around,

01:25:58.700 unsure why it got

01:26:00.260 so quiet so quick.

01:26:01.780 I turn around,

01:26:02.800 there's a six-foot-four,

01:26:04.000 22-year-old male

01:26:05.560 dropping his clothes

01:26:07.300 and is fully intact

01:26:08.380 with an exposing 0.82

01:26:09.640 male genitalia. 0.97

01:26:11.100 So let me be clear. 0.99

01:26:12.320 We were not forewarned

01:26:14.540 we would be sharing

01:26:15.680 this changing space.

01:26:16.780 No one told us.

01:26:18.160 No one asked

01:26:18.740 for our consent.

01:26:19.640 We did not.

01:26:19.900 So what did you think?

01:26:20.960 What did you think

01:26:22.160 in that situation?

01:26:23.560 I mean,

01:26:24.180 what went through

01:26:25.360 your mind?

01:26:26.220 The first word

01:26:27.360 that went through

01:26:27.960 my mind was betrayal.

01:26:30.360 Yeah, right.

01:26:31.400 That's the first,

01:26:32.460 the first thought I had.

01:26:34.660 The people who were

01:26:35.800 supposed to be

01:26:37.080 ensuring our privacy,

01:26:39.000 protecting us,

01:26:39.820 failed on every front

01:26:41.420 and bare minimum

01:26:42.520 did not tell us.

01:26:44.140 So I immediately

01:26:44.740 left the locker room.

01:26:45.860 I immediately left

01:26:46.680 and I went to

01:26:47.580 one of the officials

01:26:48.200 on the pool deck

01:26:48.980 who,

01:26:51.480 just one of the officials

01:26:52.520 and I went up to him

01:26:53.520 and I said,

01:26:53.960 you know,

01:26:54.860 I understand

01:26:55.480 the guidelines

01:26:56.380 for the meat,

01:26:58.320 which was,

01:26:59.080 at the time,

01:26:59.560 it was only 12 months

01:27:00.440 of hormone suppression.

01:27:01.760 I said,

01:27:02.240 I know,

01:27:02.740 I know that,

01:27:04.140 but what are the guidelines

01:27:05.360 for the locker room?

01:27:06.520 And word for word,

01:27:07.380 this is what he says.

01:27:08.860 Oh,

01:27:09.100 we actually got around this

01:27:10.800 by making the locker rooms

01:27:12.160 unisex.

01:27:13.200 So I'm thinking,

01:27:14.020 I'm like,

01:27:14.320 okay,

01:27:14.680 unisex.

01:27:15.680 Okay,

01:27:16.100 so this means that

01:27:17.140 any man

01:27:18.080 could have walked

01:27:19.200 into our locker room?

01:27:20.480 Any man,

01:27:21.100 not just a self-identifying

01:27:22.480 woman, 1.00

01:27:24.040 any man,

01:27:25.020 a coach,

01:27:25.660 an official,

01:27:26.680 I guess a parent,

01:27:27.680 if they could be

01:27:28.300 on the pool deck.

01:27:30.500 A fan

01:27:31.600 seeking opportunity?

01:27:33.200 And no one told us?

01:27:35.620 That's why I say

01:27:36.580 it felt like.

01:27:37.320 That's a nice touch.

01:27:38.340 I like that.

01:27:38.900 I really like the fact

01:27:39.820 they didn't tell you.

01:27:40.760 Oh,

01:27:41.120 yeah.

01:27:41.320 That's real sweet of them.

01:27:42.700 Yes.

01:27:43.420 So that's why I say

01:27:45.640 it felt like betrayal.

01:27:46.660 It felt like belittlement.

01:27:47.560 Of course,

01:27:47.860 it's awkward,

01:27:48.400 it's embarrassing,

01:27:49.080 it's uncomfortable.

01:27:50.260 There are so many feelings.

01:27:51.680 Yeah,

01:27:51.840 it didn't feel,

01:27:52.600 it didn't feel like betrayal,

01:27:54.180 by the way.

01:27:54.780 It was,

01:27:55.260 it 100% was betrayal.

01:27:57.480 Absolutely.

01:27:58.060 At the deepest possible level.

01:27:59.800 And not only was it betrayal,

01:28:01.280 it was conniving,

01:28:02.800 cowardly, 0.96

01:28:03.500 sneaking, 0.94

01:28:04.660 subtle,

01:28:05.220 camouflage betrayal.

01:28:06.460 Absolutely.

01:28:06.760 Because they didn't have 0.99

01:28:07.920 the goddamn good graces 0.99

01:28:09.180 to come out and tell you. 1.00

01:28:10.460 Right.

01:28:10.840 You know,

01:28:11.280 they sprung it on you,

01:28:13.160 so to speak.

01:28:14.240 And so that is absolutely

01:28:15.940 100% unforgivable.

01:28:18.120 And then to do that

01:28:19.160 under the guise of making

01:28:20.220 the locker rooms unisex,

01:28:21.620 that's just cherry on the,

01:28:23.100 that's just icing on the cake,

01:28:24.620 man.

01:28:24.980 It takes a real,

01:28:26.420 what would you say,

01:28:27.600 conniving, 0.56

01:28:28.320 malevolent,

01:28:29.480 underground genius

01:28:30.560 to come up with something 1.00

01:28:31.980 that sneaky and pathetic. 0.99

01:28:33.660 Absolutely. 1.00

01:28:34.280 So,

01:28:34.780 oh,

01:28:35.020 so that was quite the fun meat

01:28:36.760 for all you female athletes,

01:28:39.340 eh?

01:28:39.460 You got stomped real nicely

01:28:40.880 on the competitive front.

01:28:42.600 You got to have such good time

01:28:44.020 in the locker room, too,

01:28:45.160 with this six foot four 0.91

01:28:46.680 narcissistic wannabe 0.95

01:28:48.020 who's parading around 0.73

01:28:49.620 not only his parts,

01:28:51.000 but his virtue

01:28:51.660 in this absolutely

01:28:53.040 contemptible sense.

01:28:54.680 And then,

01:28:55.140 of course,

01:28:55.500 if you object to it,

01:28:56.600 you're now the bad guy.

01:28:57.620 Let's talk about that

01:28:58.380 a little bit.

01:28:58.900 You were at

01:28:59.600 San Francisco State University,

01:29:01.900 right?

01:29:02.140 So that's fun.

01:29:03.260 Don't go to universities

01:29:04.420 because they're pretty 0.91

01:29:05.240 damn pathological.

01:29:06.640 So now you went there 1.00

01:29:07.600 and you were invited

01:29:08.340 to go there.

01:29:09.080 So you're actually a guest,

01:29:10.640 right?

01:29:11.580 So in principle,

01:29:12.960 they should treat you nicely

01:29:14.260 since you're a guest

01:29:15.360 and you're taking your time

01:29:16.520 and energy

01:29:16.960 to go talk to people.

01:29:18.480 Who invited you

01:29:19.600 and why

01:29:21.160 and what happened

01:29:22.180 when you went there?

01:29:23.300 I was invited by

01:29:24.200 the Leadership Institute,

01:29:25.720 which is an organization

01:29:27.420 that tries to advance,

01:29:31.200 really,

01:29:31.540 they uphold the freedom

01:29:32.380 of speech.

01:29:32.780 They try to advance

01:29:35.380 the conservative movement

01:29:36.480 on college campuses.

01:29:37.900 And so I spoke

01:29:38.480 at a Turning Point event.

01:29:41.840 I'll kind of fill you in

01:29:43.560 step by step

01:29:44.300 of what this looked like.

01:29:46.040 I got there.

01:29:47.600 I was supposed to meet

01:29:49.080 the campus police department

01:29:50.620 an hour and a half

01:29:51.980 before the event.

01:29:53.160 We were set to meet

01:29:54.120 at this parking garage

01:29:55.320 and then walk over

01:29:56.740 to the event together.

01:29:58.340 The police never showed up.

01:30:00.260 And so I didn't think

01:30:02.800 much of it.

01:30:03.860 You know,

01:30:04.160 there was still an hour

01:30:04.940 and a half before,

01:30:05.800 so I figured I could

01:30:06.700 just walk over

01:30:07.400 and I'm sure they would

01:30:08.120 make their way over.

01:30:09.380 We would talk about

01:30:10.080 an exit strategy

01:30:10.900 if something were to happen,

01:30:12.880 which I thought I knew

01:30:14.320 what I was getting myself into.

01:30:15.820 I knew this was San Francisco.

01:30:17.180 I knew this was

01:30:17.660 a different environment,

01:30:18.840 which almost excites me,

01:30:21.460 not because I want controversy

01:30:23.400 or because I'm looking

01:30:24.460 for arguments,

01:30:25.660 but because this is

01:30:26.620 an opportunity to get

01:30:27.440 in front of people

01:30:28.160 who don't agree with me.

01:30:30.360 I was more hopeful

01:30:31.600 that they would come

01:30:32.340 with somewhat

01:30:33.700 of an open mind

01:30:34.860 to which they simply didn't.

01:30:37.020 There were some.

01:30:37.760 There were some civil.

01:30:38.860 Yeah, that was definitely naive.

01:30:41.040 That was definitely naive.

01:30:42.600 But, you know,

01:30:43.000 that's excusable and acceptable.

01:30:44.840 While you were going

01:30:45.400 to university campus,

01:30:46.680 did you think

01:30:47.360 you were a conservative?

01:30:49.320 I am.

01:30:51.320 Sorry, did you say

01:30:51.920 did they think

01:30:52.500 or do I think?

01:30:53.400 No, no, do you?

01:30:54.340 Well, you know,

01:30:54.960 you talk to Turning Point.

01:30:56.240 That's Charlie Kirk's organization.

01:30:57.920 It's definitely

01:30:58.560 a conservative organization.

01:31:00.280 Did you have,

01:31:01.680 before all of this,

01:31:02.620 did you consider yourself

01:31:03.900 a political creature?

01:31:04.880 Did you have a political home

01:31:06.120 or an affiliation?

01:31:07.260 I am.

01:31:08.380 I've always been

01:31:09.020 politically in tune.

01:31:10.240 I've always been

01:31:11.380 pretty up-to-date

01:31:12.420 and knowledgeable

01:31:13.020 about the different issues

01:31:14.580 we face

01:31:15.200 and what that looks like.

01:31:16.720 And typically,

01:31:17.560 my views do align conservative.

01:31:20.660 That's not to say

01:31:21.540 every view.

01:31:22.100 I'm not someone

01:31:22.740 who is going

01:31:24.040 to feel like

01:31:24.700 I have to lean

01:31:25.360 a certain way

01:31:26.040 because that's how

01:31:26.860 I align.

01:31:27.840 That's not me.

01:31:29.180 But I like to be well-versed.

01:31:30.860 I like to be knowledgeable

01:31:32.320 about what's going on.

01:31:33.300 And so I've always been

01:31:34.080 in tune,

01:31:34.940 shall we say,

01:31:35.900 but by no means

01:31:36.960 did I have any

01:31:39.040 sort of political background

01:31:40.320 or any sort of

01:31:43.480 ulterior motive

01:31:44.720 to where I wanted

01:31:45.500 to be in the position

01:31:46.340 that I'm in.

01:31:47.400 Right, right.

01:31:47.940 So you weren't

01:31:48.500 a political actor.

01:31:49.800 Oh, goodness, no.

01:31:51.560 Yeah, okay.

01:31:52.240 But I always tried

01:31:52.940 to be knowledgeable.

01:31:54.760 Who's where?

01:31:55.580 Who's doing what?

01:31:57.820 I always watched

01:31:58.560 the news

01:31:58.900 and things of that.

01:32:00.920 But by no means

01:32:01.920 did I feel equipped

01:32:02.900 for the position

01:32:03.740 I'm in.

01:32:04.240 I still don't.

01:32:04.840 I'm learning.

01:32:05.240 No, no, I bet.

01:32:06.340 I'm learning every day.

01:32:07.080 Okay, so back to SFU.

01:32:09.400 You're there.

01:32:10.380 The police

01:32:10.900 who are supposed

01:32:11.480 to help you

01:32:12.480 don't show up.

01:32:13.420 And so you're

01:32:14.620 looking forward

01:32:15.280 to this event.

01:32:16.180 And so let's continue

01:32:17.820 walking through

01:32:18.500 the day's events.

01:32:20.000 So we walk over

01:32:20.780 to the room.

01:32:22.200 It's in a building.

01:32:22.860 It's on the third floor.

01:32:25.520 Very quickly,

01:32:26.720 the room fills up.

01:32:29.560 It's about 50-50

01:32:32.400 supporters

01:32:33.000 versus protesters

01:32:33.940 in the room.

01:32:35.660 But they very quickly

01:32:36.940 reach the maximum capacity

01:32:38.300 to which the administrators

01:32:39.480 who were present

01:32:40.540 said, you know,

01:32:41.180 we're not allowing

01:32:41.900 anyone else in the room.

01:32:43.420 And I was cool with that.

01:32:45.640 I understood up

01:32:46.780 at this point

01:32:47.680 that there was

01:32:48.440 some counter events

01:32:49.940 going on,

01:32:50.860 some protests

01:32:51.740 around campus,

01:32:53.060 one of which

01:32:53.900 they organized

01:32:55.020 this big sign-making

01:32:57.020 event where

01:32:58.200 the protesters,

01:32:59.380 they got together

01:33:00.060 and they all made signs

01:33:01.000 and they all walked

01:33:01.700 over together.

01:33:02.800 They orchestrated

01:33:03.460 a sit-in

01:33:04.020 to where

01:33:04.500 they sat in the speech,

01:33:06.000 which again,

01:33:06.900 I understand

01:33:08.120 that's your right

01:33:09.200 to protest.

01:33:09.800 You have the right

01:33:10.280 to organize.

01:33:10.920 By no means

01:33:12.820 do I think

01:33:13.560 that I'm worthy

01:33:14.480 of stopping that.

01:33:16.440 That's

01:33:16.920 understandable

01:33:17.700 as long as,

01:33:19.140 again,

01:33:19.380 it's civil

01:33:20.040 and somewhat

01:33:21.260 respectful,

01:33:21.960 right?

01:33:24.080 So I was able

01:33:24.860 to deliver my speech.

01:33:26.140 I talked

01:33:26.980 for probably

01:33:27.500 40 minutes

01:33:28.320 and let me

01:33:29.020 reiterate

01:33:29.340 what my speech was.

01:33:30.740 I talked about

01:33:31.720 what it takes

01:33:32.420 to compete

01:33:32.940 at that level,

01:33:34.140 my background,

01:33:35.760 how this is

01:33:36.200 a lifelong journey.

01:33:37.060 I talked about

01:33:37.640 the competition.

01:33:38.380 I talked about

01:33:39.040 the locker room.

01:33:40.060 I talked about

01:33:40.640 the silencing piece,

01:33:41.600 not just from

01:33:42.100 the female athletes,

01:33:43.020 but parents,

01:33:44.280 administrators,

01:33:44.960 medical professionals

01:33:45.680 even.

01:33:48.460 Nothing opinionated.

01:33:49.800 Really,

01:33:50.200 my speech,

01:33:50.860 there's no opinions

01:33:51.640 in it.

01:33:52.000 It's strictly

01:33:52.580 my experience.

01:33:54.340 So I was able

01:33:55.040 to deliver the speech.

01:33:56.280 I answered questions

01:33:57.240 afterwards,

01:33:57.940 to which I was met

01:33:58.700 with lots of questions

01:33:59.960 and oppositions,

01:34:00.660 which I find

01:34:01.460 extremely easy

01:34:02.440 to answer.

01:34:03.460 Whether they

01:34:04.180 take my answer,

01:34:06.080 that's on them,

01:34:06.680 but they're all

01:34:07.780 easy to answer.

01:34:09.760 But it was only

01:34:10.520 after the speech.

01:34:11.460 I just had concluded

01:34:12.480 it had been

01:34:12.940 probably an hour.

01:34:14.720 Everyone was

01:34:15.280 standing up to leave.

01:34:17.280 And as people

01:34:17.940 were standing to leave,

01:34:20.160 first of all,

01:34:20.620 I should mention,

01:34:21.340 while I was giving

01:34:21.940 my speech,

01:34:22.680 I could hear people

01:34:23.420 outside the building.

01:34:24.540 I could hear them

01:34:25.120 chanting,

01:34:25.960 and it was a large

01:34:26.760 group of people,

01:34:27.340 you could tell.

01:34:28.220 I could hear them

01:34:28.840 chanting things

01:34:29.620 such as trans women 0.70

01:34:30.600 are women 0.97

01:34:31.120 or other chants

01:34:32.860 they could come up with.

01:34:34.340 But as I continued

01:34:35.320 my speech,

01:34:35.960 I could hear chants

01:34:37.180 getting closer and closer

01:34:38.340 to when I concluded

01:34:41.040 I could hear

01:34:42.080 these people

01:34:42.700 right outside the hallway

01:34:43.760 to where one side

01:34:45.340 of the hallway

01:34:45.820 would yell,

01:34:46.760 trans rights

01:34:47.360 are under attack.

01:34:48.360 The other side

01:34:49.160 of the hallway

01:34:49.580 would yell back,

01:34:50.740 what do we do?

01:34:51.560 We fight back.

01:34:52.980 And so I could hear this,

01:34:54.060 which was a bit unnerving

01:34:55.140 just to know

01:34:56.280 that they were

01:34:57.060 right outside the door.

01:34:58.280 But again,

01:34:59.340 I didn't really

01:35:00.820 let it bother me.

01:35:01.580 That's not something

01:35:02.200 that necessarily shook me

01:35:03.380 at the time.

01:35:03.960 But everyone

01:35:05.920 stood up to leave.

01:35:07.880 All of a sudden,

01:35:09.380 a mob of people

01:35:11.860 enter into the room.

01:35:13.700 They rush into the room.

01:35:15.040 They flicker the lights.

01:35:16.020 They turn the lights off.

01:35:17.300 And this is when

01:35:18.360 they rush

01:35:19.760 to the podium

01:35:20.660 where I was

01:35:21.700 and some other members

01:35:22.580 of the Turning Point chapter

01:35:23.900 were.

01:35:25.500 And this is where

01:35:26.420 we were met with

01:35:27.360 assault and violence.

01:35:29.820 So they turned

01:35:31.900 the lights off.

01:35:32.540 So how dark

01:35:33.200 is it in there

01:35:33.860 when the lights are off?

01:35:35.440 This period

01:35:36.780 is a blur to me.

01:35:38.500 It all happened

01:35:39.300 so quickly.

01:35:40.740 I felt so disoriented.

01:35:42.460 I felt so jostled.

01:35:43.380 I felt so confused.

01:35:44.460 You know,

01:35:44.700 what is happening?

01:35:45.740 I was told,

01:35:46.520 granted,

01:35:46.740 I never talked

01:35:47.320 with the police

01:35:47.780 before this,

01:35:48.640 but the Turning Point

01:35:49.600 members told me,

01:35:50.660 you know,

01:35:50.860 the police said

01:35:51.420 they're going to lock

01:35:52.120 the doors

01:35:52.580 at a certain time.

01:35:53.860 There should be

01:35:54.440 no problems.

01:35:56.420 We'll be good.

01:35:57.080 So I was under

01:35:58.380 the impression

01:35:58.860 that the doors

01:35:59.520 would be locked,

01:36:00.900 which they were not.

01:36:02.740 So it all just

01:36:03.620 happened so quickly.

01:36:05.060 But yes,

01:36:05.460 they turned the lights off

01:36:06.280 and it was

01:36:06.960 nighttime outside.

01:36:08.520 So it's pitch black

01:36:09.240 in this room,

01:36:10.100 which of course

01:36:10.660 you have to imagine.

01:36:11.400 So it's really dark.

01:36:12.300 Oh, so that was

01:36:12.800 a sneaky little move.

01:36:13.720 You have to imagine

01:36:14.320 it's intentional.

01:36:15.120 The police are completely,

01:36:16.640 oh, of course,

01:36:17.640 it's intentional.

01:36:18.320 They know exactly

01:36:18.900 what they're doing.

01:36:20.040 And the campus police

01:36:21.300 are 100% unprepared

01:36:23.220 for any real aggression.

01:36:24.940 Absolutely.

01:36:25.540 You know,

01:36:25.680 they're,

01:36:26.400 yeah, yeah.

01:36:26.840 And I mean,

01:36:27.520 to some degree

01:36:28.140 that's on them

01:36:28.880 and it's on the administration,

01:36:29.860 but it's also outside

01:36:31.200 their normal course

01:36:32.300 of training and activity.

01:36:33.420 They have no idea

01:36:34.300 what to do.

01:36:34.900 So the idea

01:36:35.400 that you're going

01:36:35.880 to be protected

01:36:36.620 by campus police

01:36:38.120 on campus,

01:36:38.860 you can bloody well

01:36:39.560 just forget about that.

01:36:40.680 That's not going to happen.

01:36:42.080 Okay,

01:36:42.320 so now it's dark.

01:36:43.760 And who is it

01:36:44.960 that's rushing you exactly?

01:36:46.520 And how many of them

01:36:47.200 are there?

01:36:47.900 A mob

01:36:48.540 of trans rights activists,

01:36:50.260 whether that be

01:36:51.080 trans individuals themselves,

01:36:53.120 whether that be

01:36:53.860 people within

01:36:54.760 this LGBTQ community,

01:36:56.420 whether that be

01:36:57.340 someone who just

01:36:58.480 considers themselves

01:36:59.360 an ally to this community,

01:37:01.220 there were so many

01:37:02.540 different,

01:37:03.260 I don't want to say

01:37:04.780 combinations

01:37:05.400 of a person,

01:37:07.040 but there were

01:37:07.720 men dressed as women 0.98

01:37:09.080 and women dressed as men

01:37:10.300 and everything in between.

01:37:11.400 So it was very,

01:37:12.980 again,

01:37:13.580 disorienting.

01:37:14.300 It was like,

01:37:15.040 who am I being met with?

01:37:16.260 What is happening?

01:37:18.080 So as the lights

01:37:19.380 are flickering,

01:37:19.980 the lights are on,

01:37:20.700 they're off,

01:37:21.640 an officer approaches me

01:37:23.100 very quickly

01:37:24.240 and she grabs me

01:37:25.160 and she's wearing

01:37:26.320 nothing that indicates

01:37:27.320 she's an officer.

01:37:28.000 And again,

01:37:28.480 I hadn't met her.

01:37:29.820 She never alerted me

01:37:30.860 she was in the room.

01:37:31.900 Her face is covered

01:37:32.600 with a mask

01:37:33.380 and she tells me

01:37:35.500 very quickly

01:37:35.980 trying to pull me along

01:37:37.140 as more people

01:37:38.500 are filtering into the room.

01:37:39.560 She says,

01:37:40.040 come with me,

01:37:40.700 I'm with the police.

01:37:42.500 And I didn't believe her.

01:37:43.540 Why would I believe her, right?

01:37:46.480 So I was very hesitant,

01:37:47.860 I was reluctant,

01:37:48.680 but truthfully,

01:37:49.280 I had no other choice

01:37:50.200 at this point

01:37:50.780 because I was being,

01:37:52.180 we were being rushed

01:37:52.840 at the front of the room.

01:37:54.220 So we kind of navigate

01:37:55.620 out of the room.

01:37:56.680 We're only met

01:37:57.420 with more protesters

01:37:58.600 once we get into the hallway.

01:37:59.920 We couldn't even come out

01:38:00.640 of the door of the classroom

01:38:01.740 because there were

01:38:02.500 so many people filtering in

01:38:03.960 that we had to go out

01:38:05.140 this back door

01:38:05.820 that led us to another classroom

01:38:07.680 to get out that way.

01:38:10.300 To which when we got

01:38:11.220 to the hallway,

01:38:12.600 you look down

01:38:13.420 to the staircase,

01:38:14.960 there's hundreds of people.

01:38:16.680 You look down

01:38:17.180 to the other staircase,

01:38:18.520 of course,

01:38:19.260 which is your exit path

01:38:20.420 to get out of the building,

01:38:22.200 and it's hundreds of people.

01:38:24.320 So ultimately,

01:38:25.380 we had no other choice

01:38:26.380 than this officer

01:38:27.080 led me to another room

01:38:28.500 along that same hallway

01:38:29.760 where I was barricaded

01:38:31.940 for three hours,

01:38:33.040 over three hours,

01:38:34.060 which was interesting.

01:38:38.880 It was,

01:38:39.400 I mean,

01:38:39.620 in those moments,

01:38:40.720 in those hours,

01:38:41.780 you fear for your life

01:38:43.080 hearing what these people

01:38:44.780 are yelling,

01:38:45.500 hearing the things

01:38:46.200 they want to do to you.

01:38:48.500 An array of things,

01:38:49.720 all of which were violent

01:38:50.760 and vengeful

01:38:51.320 and hateful

01:38:51.860 and all of the words,

01:38:53.360 of course,

01:38:53.960 in the...

01:38:54.860 Well, let's hear them.

01:38:55.800 Let's hear them.

01:38:56.360 What did they tell you?

01:38:57.260 Some of the things

01:38:57.780 they were yelling.

01:38:58.180 Yelling away.

01:38:58.680 One of the terms

01:38:59.960 they kept using,

01:39:01.060 which I think is so ironic,

01:39:02.740 they kept saying,

01:39:04.900 we fight back.

01:39:06.640 And I thought about this,

01:39:08.280 and I thought,

01:39:09.360 the day before this event,

01:39:12.040 the day before,

01:39:13.520 the press secretary

01:39:14.360 of the Biden administration

01:39:15.380 in a press conference

01:39:16.780 said the words,

01:39:18.460 our trans community,

01:39:19.460 they're resilient

01:39:20.080 and they fight back.

01:39:21.840 And so it just kept

01:39:22.760 replaying in my head,

01:39:24.220 wow,

01:39:24.500 they're using verbatim

01:39:25.740 the same verbiage

01:39:27.060 that Jean-Pierre,

01:39:28.960 whatever her name is,

01:39:30.340 is using.

01:39:31.620 They were yelling things.

01:39:32.460 I see.

01:39:32.840 So this is right from the top.

01:39:35.060 That's one of the things

01:39:36.100 that really makes you wonder

01:39:37.200 just exactly what country

01:39:38.640 you're in

01:39:39.020 at a time like that,

01:39:40.120 doesn't it?

01:39:40.620 Absolutely.

01:39:40.920 When the people

01:39:41.680 who are threatening you

01:39:43.380 and barricading you in

01:39:44.440 because you're objecting

01:39:46.020 to being,

01:39:46.620 what would you say,

01:39:48.020 subjected to an unfair competition

01:39:50.060 by any reasonable standard,

01:39:52.620 and now you're being mobbed 0.99

01:39:54.540 by half-demented lunatics 0.99

01:39:56.460 who are directly acting out 0.98

01:39:59.580 words that have come up,

01:40:00.780 come from the highest possible

01:40:02.020 state or,

01:40:03.260 well,

01:40:03.560 federal authorities.

01:40:04.660 Yeah,

01:40:04.800 that's real cute.

01:40:05.840 There's a betrayal for you.

01:40:07.060 That's a nice one.

01:40:08.480 They were yelling things

01:40:09.780 such as to the officers

01:40:11.640 who were standing outside.

01:40:13.040 They were saying,

01:40:13.840 you know,

01:40:14.020 you're only protecting her 0.82

01:40:15.160 because she's white. 1.00

01:40:16.560 They were yelling things,

01:40:18.100 which is,

01:40:19.620 they were yelling things

01:40:20.860 such as,

01:40:21.700 you know,

01:40:21.920 you shouldn't have come here.

01:40:22.940 You should have known

01:40:23.540 what you were getting yourself into.

01:40:24.940 You knew we would riot.

01:40:26.300 Let her out of that room 1.00

01:40:27.360 so we can handle her ourselves

01:40:28.860 at a point.

01:40:31.140 What do you think

01:40:31.600 would have happened?

01:40:32.320 What do you think

01:40:32.840 would have happened

01:40:33.380 just out of curiosity

01:40:34.480 or what were you imagining

01:40:35.660 would happen

01:40:36.140 if you would have,

01:40:37.260 if they would have got access to you?

01:40:39.080 It's a scary thought.

01:40:39.640 Do you have any sense?

01:40:40.500 Like realistic?

01:40:41.500 Yeah.

01:40:41.820 It's a scary thought.

01:40:42.620 We saw what happened

01:40:43.400 to Posey Parker

01:40:44.300 in New Zealand, right?

01:40:45.400 I mean,

01:40:45.620 she got mobbed quite nicely 0.94

01:40:47.260 and she had tomato soup

01:40:48.360 doused on her.

01:40:49.500 It never got to the point

01:40:50.980 of, you know,

01:40:52.060 permanent physical violence.

01:40:54.000 But they would have.

01:40:54.660 What do you think

01:40:56.620 would have happened?

01:40:57.400 I think just that.

01:40:58.460 I think these people,

01:40:59.900 based off of what

01:41:00.860 they were saying,

01:41:01.500 I mean,

01:41:01.660 they were explicitly saying

01:41:02.880 they wanted to hurt me.

01:41:05.100 Yeah.

01:41:05.500 I don't know

01:41:06.240 to what extent

01:41:07.140 that looks like,

01:41:08.380 but I'll tell you,

01:41:08.980 these people are, 0.95

01:41:10.120 they were unhinged. 0.94

01:41:11.480 They were relentless.

01:41:12.960 And that's something

01:41:13.640 they kept saying

01:41:14.260 is we're not letting up.

01:41:15.940 Right.

01:41:16.180 Well,

01:41:16.380 and they're in a mob too,

01:41:17.520 which is always a bad thing,

01:41:18.800 right?

01:41:18.960 Because even if

01:41:19.720 each of those people

01:41:20.700 was only 5% insane

01:41:22.300 on their own,

01:41:23.240 in a mob, 0.99

01:41:23.920 they're 100% insane. 0.94

01:41:25.460 And so, 0.93

01:41:26.200 yeah.

01:41:26.480 And so how many people

01:41:27.300 are in there

01:41:27.760 barricaded in with you?

01:41:29.020 And why were

01:41:30.360 the barricades effective?

01:41:31.420 Why didn't they just

01:41:32.080 like hammer down the doors

01:41:33.300 and have at her? 0.97

01:41:34.280 It was just

01:41:34.880 in terms of

01:41:36.440 people in the room

01:41:38.320 other than the officers,

01:41:39.360 it was just me

01:41:40.080 in that room.

01:41:41.220 There was a few officers

01:41:42.440 who would filter in and out,

01:41:44.680 but there was

01:41:45.580 a few campus officers

01:41:46.720 who stood outside the door

01:41:47.840 who kept people

01:41:49.520 from, I guess,

01:41:50.400 tearing down the door.

01:41:52.440 How did they treat you?

01:41:53.480 How did the officers

01:41:54.300 themselves treat you?

01:41:55.160 What was their attitude

01:41:55.940 towards you like?

01:41:57.140 I was,

01:41:58.140 I of course respect

01:41:59.180 law enforcement

01:41:59.840 and applaud them

01:42:01.360 for their job

01:42:02.460 because it's a hard job

01:42:03.360 and it's a thankless job.

01:42:05.900 But these officers

01:42:07.960 were,

01:42:10.440 I don't know if pitiful

01:42:11.700 is too harsh,

01:42:12.540 but they were terrified.

01:42:14.860 They were terrified.

01:42:16.300 They were scared

01:42:17.140 to be seen as anything

01:42:18.460 other than an ally

01:42:19.300 to this community.

01:42:20.600 There was one

01:42:21.460 person in the mob

01:42:23.180 who was African American

01:42:24.300 who,

01:42:25.400 I guess,

01:42:25.900 the officer just

01:42:26.560 had to push around a little

01:42:27.680 and to which

01:42:28.300 this person yelled back,

01:42:29.560 you know,

01:42:29.740 you're only doing this

01:42:30.580 because I'm African American.

01:42:32.140 I'm going to sue.

01:42:33.440 And so these officers,

01:42:34.480 they don't want to put

01:42:35.300 themselves in that position.

01:42:36.340 They've seen how

01:42:36.800 that's gone in the past,

01:42:37.980 again,

01:42:38.500 to a much

01:42:39.100 greater extreme.

01:42:40.440 But they don't want

01:42:42.820 to deal with this.

01:42:43.800 They want all hands

01:42:44.820 off deck.

01:42:45.680 So it affected

01:42:46.560 how they did their job.

01:42:49.440 They were terrified

01:42:50.940 of creating

01:42:53.140 a safe exit strategy

01:42:54.180 for me,

01:42:54.720 using force

01:42:55.360 by any means.

01:42:56.200 I missed my flight home,

01:42:57.840 to which I told them,

01:42:58.980 you know,

01:42:59.720 I'm going to miss my flight.

01:43:01.360 Is there something

01:43:02.180 we can do?

01:43:02.880 I want to go home.

01:43:03.800 I don't want to be stuck

01:43:04.580 in San Francisco anymore.

01:43:06.320 To which at this point,

01:43:07.120 I began to get upset.

01:43:08.380 So you're essentially,

01:43:09.480 at that point,

01:43:10.140 you're essentially kidnapped.

01:43:11.740 Well,

01:43:12.200 it gets even better

01:43:12.960 from there

01:43:13.520 because inside this room,

01:43:16.440 I could hear

01:43:17.000 these protesters

01:43:17.640 on the outside.

01:43:19.100 And probably two hours

01:43:20.620 or so in,

01:43:21.640 maybe two and a half,

01:43:23.240 these protesters,

01:43:24.200 the dean of students

01:43:24.820 shows up.

01:43:26.360 These protesters

01:43:26.980 are trying to negotiate

01:43:28.040 if I make it home safely.

01:43:29.760 They're saying,

01:43:30.420 if she wants to make it home,

01:43:31.440 she has to pay us.

01:43:32.920 To which the dean of students

01:43:34.220 is negotiating with them.

01:43:36.180 They all claim-

01:43:37.020 Pay you.

01:43:37.480 What?

01:43:37.760 Pay you,

01:43:38.560 meaning what?

01:43:39.160 I had to pay the mob.

01:43:41.780 That's what they were claiming.

01:43:43.800 What did you have to pay them?

01:43:45.940 A couple suggestions were made.

01:43:48.060 One person suggested,

01:43:49.400 you know,

01:43:49.660 if she wants to make it home safely,

01:43:51.040 she has to pay us $10 each, 0.94

01:43:53.280 which is so silly.

01:43:57.380 It's not silly. 0.96

01:43:58.620 It's kidnapping.

01:44:00.160 It's not silly. 0.66

01:44:01.280 It's horrible. 0.90

01:44:02.000 It's beyond reproach.

01:44:03.500 It's beyond surreal.

01:44:07.600 Oh, that's amazing.

01:44:08.680 And so the dean of students

01:44:11.060 didn't take names

01:44:13.520 and decide that those were some students

01:44:15.300 that could be easily dispensed with

01:44:17.320 and removed from the campus permanently.

01:44:20.320 She decided she'd negotiate with them

01:44:22.320 and play nice

01:44:22.900 because after all,

01:44:23.780 all they were doing

01:44:24.700 was kidnapping you

01:44:25.640 and engaging in extortion

01:44:28.000 with the threat of violence.

01:44:29.760 That's all they were doing.

01:44:31.320 Whereas you were,

01:44:32.300 you know,

01:44:32.940 complaining about the fact

01:44:34.380 that you'd been subjected

01:44:35.420 to an utterly unfair competition

01:44:37.960 by officials that had betrayed you.

01:44:40.940 That's your crime.

01:44:41.760 Their crime is kidnapping and extortion.

01:44:43.880 And you'll love this.

01:44:45.000 Cute.

01:44:45.240 Because after this event,

01:44:47.820 I can,

01:44:49.580 and I can talk a little bit

01:44:50.920 about how I actually got out.

01:44:52.360 But after this event,

01:44:53.840 rather than releasing a statement

01:44:57.180 saying we condemn violence

01:44:59.080 or we have to uphold

01:45:01.360 the freedom of speech,

01:45:02.760 the vice president of student affairs,

01:45:04.720 her name is Dr. Jamila Moore.

01:45:06.520 She sent out an email

01:45:07.420 to their student body.

01:45:09.260 And this email,

01:45:10.740 it says,

01:45:12.500 we applaud our brave students.

01:45:15.940 They were in a situation

01:45:17.500 where they were met with adversity.

01:45:21.080 They were met with,

01:45:23.180 they were put in a very hard circumstance

01:45:25.340 listening to someone

01:45:26.260 who spreads violence.

01:45:27.920 And we applaud their bravery

01:45:29.440 and their peaceful protests.

01:45:31.380 Sent an email to their university

01:45:33.920 describing what I went through

01:45:36.220 as peaceful.

01:45:37.680 And so I read this.

01:45:39.080 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:45:39.740 And I'm so curious.

01:45:40.380 Yeah, well, you know,

01:45:41.100 that's a real,

01:45:41.800 that's a real backhanded compliment 0.79

01:45:43.600 that you're a sufficiently terrifying force

01:45:45.880 to have oppressed,

01:45:46.900 you know,

01:45:47.700 200 rampaging mobsters.

01:45:51.640 You know, 1.00

01:45:52.100 you really are quite the monster 0.99

01:45:53.640 if you were able to manage that. 0.99

01:45:55.060 Exactly.

01:45:55.720 While you're,

01:45:56.400 while you're being barricaded in a room

01:45:58.620 and,

01:45:58.920 and essentially kidnapped and extorted.

01:46:01.480 So, you know,

01:46:02.060 that's definitely a compliment.

01:46:03.800 Totally.

01:46:04.080 The most backhanded possible way.

01:46:06.100 Yeah, yeah.

01:46:06.520 Well, it's quite something

01:46:07.320 to watch this,

01:46:08.580 to watch this,

01:46:11.180 this offer of an extended sense

01:46:14.860 of victimization

01:46:15.800 to the perpetrators themselves.

01:46:18.820 You know,

01:46:19.060 had to undergo all the trauma

01:46:20.440 of having to listen to you

01:46:22.020 describe how you were betrayed

01:46:23.460 by the NCAA

01:46:24.340 and by the Biden administration 0.94

01:46:26.620 and by all the virtue signaling dimwits 0.93

01:46:28.740 who thought that forcing you 0.96

01:46:30.620 and your teammates

01:46:31.300 to compete against a man

01:46:32.620 was actually acceptable

01:46:34.280 and morally justifiable.

01:46:36.680 You know,

01:46:36.840 and so now we're in a situation

01:46:38.100 where your mere attempts

01:46:39.440 to defend yourself

01:46:40.500 are regarded as some variant

01:46:42.480 of hate speech

01:46:43.260 and provocation of violence.

01:46:45.000 Yeah, 0.96

01:46:45.220 that's perfectly goddamn delightful. 0.73

01:46:47.040 That's a lovely way 0.93

01:46:47.840 to think about it.

01:46:48.640 So,

01:46:49.260 yeah,

01:46:50.060 I don't suppose you heard

01:46:50.800 from anyone like Kamala Harris,

01:46:52.440 for example,

01:46:53.140 complimenting you on your bravery.

01:46:54.980 I know she sent off a missive

01:46:56.460 a while back to Dylan Mulvaney,

01:46:58.380 you know,

01:46:58.700 letting him know

01:46:59.300 what a brave soul he was

01:47:00.600 for doing whatever the hell

01:47:02.140 it is that he's doing.

01:47:03.360 I don't suppose you heard anything

01:47:04.620 from anybody up

01:47:06.260 in the Democratic authorities

01:47:07.560 complimenting you on your bravery.

01:47:10.080 Absolutely not.

01:47:10.980 I bet you haven't.

01:47:11.780 No.

01:47:12.400 Yeah,

01:47:12.840 that is,

01:47:13.880 I'm not holding my breath.

01:47:16.880 That's...

01:47:17.360 No,

01:47:17.600 no,

01:47:17.900 no,

01:47:18.160 no.

01:47:19.180 No.

01:47:19.480 Okay,

01:47:19.800 so let's look,

01:47:20.540 we should wrap this up.

01:47:22.060 We've been going

01:47:22.620 for about 90 minutes.

01:47:23.560 That's a lovely story

01:47:24.520 to conclude with.

01:47:25.940 And so,

01:47:27.120 wow.

01:47:28.200 So,

01:47:29.200 one final question,

01:47:30.500 perhaps,

01:47:30.940 and maybe there's something else

01:47:32.080 you want to add as well.

01:47:33.860 That's quite the experience

01:47:35.160 you went through at SFU.

01:47:36.540 I experienced something like that

01:47:38.260 at Queen's University.

01:47:39.900 We were barricaded into a...

01:47:42.160 I had 500 people in there with me,

01:47:44.120 but the mob came

01:47:45.560 and barricaded the doors,

01:47:47.240 and they were pounding on the windows,

01:47:48.860 which they eventually broke.

01:47:50.580 And, you know,

01:47:51.160 it was quite the mob scene.

01:47:53.480 Wow.

01:47:53.620 And so,

01:47:54.740 you know,

01:47:55.160 yeah,

01:47:55.480 yeah,

01:47:55.700 so I'm familiar

01:47:57.320 with that kind of thing,

01:47:58.220 although you were outnumbered

01:47:59.920 a lot worse than I was,

01:48:01.340 let's say.

01:48:03.000 So,

01:48:03.660 that's another existential shock,

01:48:06.200 eh,

01:48:06.320 to go through something like that

01:48:07.600 and to see just exactly

01:48:08.860 how corrupt

01:48:09.420 these bloody institutions 0.63

01:48:10.520 have become

01:48:11.080 and how eager

01:48:12.140 they might be

01:48:13.080 to throw you to the wolves.

01:48:14.360 And so,

01:48:15.140 you know,

01:48:15.440 you've already been through

01:48:16.500 your fair share

01:48:17.700 of inverting experiences,

01:48:20.720 let's say.

01:48:21.520 What did this do to you?

01:48:23.720 It was interesting

01:48:24.420 because...

01:48:24.440 And what conclusions

01:48:25.020 have you drawn?

01:48:26.460 At first,

01:48:27.340 naturally,

01:48:28.280 this almost deters you,

01:48:30.920 right?

01:48:31.280 I mean,

01:48:31.800 when you're met

01:48:32.580 with this kind of force,

01:48:34.600 it's terrifying.

01:48:37.060 Again,

01:48:37.640 based off of

01:48:38.200 what they were yelling,

01:48:39.160 how they orchestrated

01:48:40.160 all this,

01:48:40.720 how the officers

01:48:41.380 did nothing,

01:48:42.020 how the administration

01:48:43.180 applauded it.

01:48:44.400 It just makes you feel

01:48:45.360 as if you're doing

01:48:46.060 something wrong.

01:48:47.540 But after,

01:48:49.540 of course,

01:48:50.060 the next day,

01:48:50.860 I step away

01:48:51.540 from the situation,

01:48:52.300 and I'm thinking to myself

01:48:53.380 on my flight back home,

01:48:54.960 eventually,

01:48:55.500 I made my flight back home,

01:48:57.020 and it just occurred to me,

01:49:00.000 they have nothing else

01:49:01.920 to dissuade

01:49:02.820 from my argument

01:49:03.680 other than reacting

01:49:05.040 that way.

01:49:05.940 They don't have truth.

01:49:07.220 They don't have science.

01:49:08.200 They don't have any

01:49:08.900 logical points.

01:49:10.060 They don't have

01:49:10.740 reasoning.

01:49:12.100 They don't have

01:49:12.820 anything

01:49:13.320 that would

01:49:14.420 allow them

01:49:15.780 to have an argument

01:49:16.620 that's substantial enough

01:49:17.700 to go back

01:49:19.320 and forth

01:49:19.680 with mine.

01:49:20.420 So that's why

01:49:21.260 they react

01:49:21.780 the way they do.

01:49:23.360 So then it hit me,

01:49:24.920 this can't be something

01:49:25.820 that silences me.

01:49:29.000 If they act

01:49:30.120 this way,

01:49:30.620 it only means

01:49:31.360 you're getting closer,

01:49:32.800 you're right over

01:49:33.300 the target.

01:49:35.520 That being said,

01:49:37.040 it's not going

01:49:38.580 to deter me.

01:49:39.380 It's only going

01:49:40.400 to encourage me

01:49:41.520 to continue.

01:49:42.700 I have now

01:49:43.180 increased my security,

01:49:44.500 so I guess

01:49:45.440 I can thank them

01:49:46.100 for that.

01:49:46.940 And I can thank them

01:49:47.840 for,

01:49:48.160 truthfully,

01:49:48.500 I think this whole

01:49:49.020 situation backfired

01:49:49.940 on them.

01:49:51.120 Because,

01:49:52.180 again,

01:49:52.580 while this shouldn't

01:49:53.160 be a political

01:49:53.760 issue,

01:49:55.140 it's inevitable

01:49:55.780 that it is.

01:49:57.320 And this has made

01:49:58.280 even a lot of

01:49:59.400 liberals,

01:50:01.220 a lot of people

01:50:01.740 who typically

01:50:02.260 lean left,

01:50:03.440 really open their

01:50:04.240 eyes to

01:50:05.020 what the left,

01:50:07.420 again,

01:50:08.180 I hate this is

01:50:08.780 political,

01:50:09.180 but it is,

01:50:09.620 what the left

01:50:10.100 is really doing here.

01:50:11.700 This is how

01:50:12.360 they react

01:50:13.000 when simply

01:50:14.100 they don't

01:50:14.540 agree with

01:50:15.020 someone.

01:50:15.880 This is what

01:50:16.520 they're willing

01:50:16.960 to do.

01:50:18.000 And so it's

01:50:18.540 opened a lot

01:50:19.080 of eyes.

01:50:19.560 It's only

01:50:19.900 increased my

01:50:20.900 social media

01:50:21.460 following.

01:50:21.940 It's only

01:50:22.220 increased my

01:50:22.820 platform to

01:50:23.460 continue sharing

01:50:24.120 my message,

01:50:25.240 which that's

01:50:26.360 never,

01:50:27.060 I never want

01:50:27.640 to advance

01:50:28.060 myself personally.

01:50:29.000 Again,

01:50:29.160 it's not about

01:50:29.680 me.

01:50:29.940 It's not about

01:50:30.420 my social media

01:50:31.080 following.

01:50:31.640 It's about

01:50:32.140 getting the

01:50:33.020 message out

01:50:33.500 to whoever

01:50:34.340 will listen,

01:50:36.180 whoever wants

01:50:36.780 to hear it.

01:50:37.280 I'm willing

01:50:37.580 to talk.

01:50:39.060 What do you

01:50:39.720 want?

01:50:40.480 What do you

01:50:40.840 want?

01:50:41.100 If you could

01:50:41.460 have what you

01:50:41.980 wanted,

01:50:42.460 let's talk

01:50:43.000 about the NCAA.

01:50:44.100 Let's talk

01:50:44.560 about the

01:50:44.900 sports

01:50:45.240 organizations.

01:50:46.860 What are

01:50:47.440 your terms

01:50:47.940 of peace?

01:50:48.780 What do you

01:50:49.520 think should

01:50:49.880 be done?

01:50:51.020 Of course,

01:50:51.640 I want

01:50:51.860 change.

01:50:52.820 What I've

01:50:53.320 been doing

01:50:53.560 this past

01:50:53.960 year is

01:50:54.300 traveling

01:50:54.600 state to

01:50:55.100 state,

01:50:56.060 testifying a

01:50:56.800 different state

01:50:57.220 legislature.

01:50:57.900 I'm going

01:50:58.140 back to

01:50:58.500 Texas on

01:50:58.940 Monday to

01:50:59.420 testify,

01:51:00.480 testifying in

01:51:01.220 front of

01:51:01.460 Congress in

01:51:02.660 just a few

01:51:03.120 weeks.

01:51:04.300 So whether

01:51:04.900 that be the

01:51:05.420 state level,

01:51:05.960 the federal

01:51:06.260 level,

01:51:06.720 upholding

01:51:07.140 Title IX,

01:51:07.660 that's a

01:51:07.980 big ordeal

01:51:08.840 right now.

01:51:10.500 Doing

01:51:10.940 everything in

01:51:11.480 my power to

01:51:12.860 combat

01:51:13.760 this movement.

01:51:15.500 So I'm

01:51:17.000 hopeful there

01:51:17.640 in regards to

01:51:18.640 sports-specific

01:51:19.720 governing bodies.

01:51:22.960 It's interesting

01:51:23.860 because you have

01:51:24.440 many sports

01:51:25.000 going many

01:51:25.480 different ways.

01:51:26.660 Swimming,

01:51:27.080 track and

01:51:27.380 field,

01:51:27.720 they've taken

01:51:28.160 a good

01:51:28.400 approach.

01:51:29.020 But what

01:51:29.480 about rowing

01:51:30.360 and FIFA

01:51:30.840 and other

01:51:31.380 sports?

01:51:32.020 They've taken

01:51:32.500 the total

01:51:33.180 opposite.

01:51:33.680 Mixed

01:51:34.060 martial arts

01:51:34.740 fighting.

01:51:35.160 They've

01:51:35.640 taken the

01:51:36.080 total

01:51:36.320 opposite

01:51:36.680 approach.

01:51:37.500 And so

01:51:38.020 while I

01:51:39.780 might not

01:51:40.160 have much

01:51:40.660 expertise in

01:51:41.500 cycling or

01:51:42.100 disc golf or

01:51:42.760 whatever that

01:51:43.220 might look

01:51:43.600 like, I

01:51:44.500 still want to

01:51:44.900 do everything

01:51:45.360 I can to

01:51:46.020 fight for

01:51:46.400 those girls 1.00

01:51:47.320 and women. 0.98

01:51:48.580 Again, they

01:51:49.800 might not have

01:51:50.380 the confidence.

01:51:51.040 They might not

01:51:51.440 have the

01:51:51.840 personal testimony

01:51:53.040 I have.

01:51:54.140 They might not

01:51:54.920 have the

01:51:57.320 security to

01:51:58.700 speak up.

01:51:59.820 So doing what

01:52:00.460 I can for

01:52:00.960 them.

01:52:01.480 So ultimately,

01:52:02.280 change is what I

01:52:02.860 want to enact.

01:52:03.320 No girl should 1.00

01:52:03.960 have to go

01:52:04.340 through what

01:52:04.660 we went

01:52:05.000 through,

01:52:05.640 regardless of

01:52:06.400 what level,

01:52:06.980 regardless of

01:52:07.460 what age,

01:52:08.000 regardless of

01:52:08.460 what sport.

01:52:09.820 Two, I think

01:52:11.460 there needs to

01:52:11.940 be a sense of

01:52:12.440 accountability,

01:52:13.540 whether that be

01:52:14.160 from universities,

01:52:15.060 whether that be

01:52:15.600 from administrations,

01:52:16.880 whether that be

01:52:17.460 from the

01:52:18.140 government.

01:52:19.100 There needs to

01:52:20.080 be a sense of

01:52:20.760 accountability of

01:52:21.620 how this is

01:52:22.280 harmful to

01:52:22.840 women because 1.00

01:52:23.380 the people who

01:52:24.060 are in

01:52:24.560 opposition of

01:52:26.040 this right

01:52:27.180 now of

01:52:27.580 protecting women's

01:52:28.400 sports specifically,

01:52:29.660 really women in 1.00

01:52:30.340 general, but

01:52:30.860 we're talking

01:52:31.540 about women's

01:52:32.040 sports.

01:52:32.380 These people

01:52:33.400 who are doing

01:52:34.980 everything in

01:52:35.520 their power to

01:52:36.380 advocate for

01:52:37.240 male trans

01:52:38.400 inclusion in

01:52:39.260 these spaces,

01:52:40.500 they're not

01:52:41.740 acknowledging how

01:52:42.500 this is hurting

01:52:43.060 women and 0.99

01:52:43.620 therefore it's

01:52:45.880 overall harmful.

01:52:47.720 I believe there

01:52:48.640 needs to be a

01:52:49.120 sense of

01:52:49.420 acknowledgement from

01:52:50.360 all of those

01:52:51.040 different entities

01:52:52.740 that are listed

01:52:53.940 to understand why

01:52:57.000 this is harmful

01:52:57.540 to women.

01:52:59.060 So that's what

01:52:59.740 I've been trying

01:53:00.240 to communicate to

01:53:01.320 anyone and

01:53:01.760 everyone.

01:53:02.380 who will

01:53:02.900 listen.

01:53:03.620 Yeah.

01:53:04.220 Well, kind of

01:53:06.620 looks to me like

01:53:07.300 you're doing it

01:53:07.780 with a fair

01:53:08.180 degree of

01:53:08.580 effectiveness.

01:53:09.440 And so, you

01:53:10.260 know, congratulations

01:53:11.120 on that front.

01:53:12.700 I'm sure you've

01:53:13.700 got no shortage

01:53:15.540 of surreal

01:53:18.420 adventures in

01:53:20.020 front of you

01:53:20.500 over the next

01:53:21.100 while because,

01:53:22.020 you know, this

01:53:23.160 is a crazy

01:53:23.820 situation that you

01:53:24.880 found yourself

01:53:25.620 in.

01:53:25.920 and you certainly

01:53:27.200 saw that at

01:53:28.040 San Francisco

01:53:28.920 State, you

01:53:31.240 know, to be

01:53:32.160 mobbed like that

01:53:33.000 and then to have

01:53:33.600 the administration

01:53:34.500 feel sorry for

01:53:35.520 the mobbers and

01:53:36.480 to acclaim their

01:53:37.880 virtue for, you

01:53:38.780 know, having the

01:53:39.500 courage to stand

01:53:40.300 up to such a

01:53:41.060 reprehensible,

01:53:41.980 powerful individual 0.96

01:53:42.840 as you.

01:53:43.380 It's quite the 0.93

01:53:44.720 bloody charade and,

01:53:45.980 you know, it's very

01:53:46.540 much emblematic of

01:53:47.520 what's going on in

01:53:48.260 the universities.

01:53:49.080 They have many sins

01:53:50.860 on their conscience,

01:53:52.180 that's for sure.

01:53:53.360 And this is one of

01:53:54.500 them.

01:53:54.820 And this whole

01:53:56.760 spectacle is so

01:53:58.240 surreal that it's,

01:53:59.620 you know, it's a

01:54:00.380 form of black 0.78

01:54:01.020 comedy and it's

01:54:02.540 quite something to

01:54:03.320 be in the midst

01:54:05.300 of that maelstrom.

01:54:06.220 But you seem to be

01:54:07.180 holding your head

01:54:07.700 up quite nicely.

01:54:08.580 And if you're

01:54:09.380 careful and you've

01:54:10.500 been smart enough

01:54:11.100 not to apologize

01:54:11.920 or backtrack,

01:54:12.820 and that's a big

01:54:13.420 deal.

01:54:14.140 So tell the people

01:54:15.780 that you're in

01:54:16.300 touch with, you

01:54:17.060 know, especially

01:54:18.460 Leah Thomas'

01:54:19.400 teammates, that I'd

01:54:20.900 be more than happy

01:54:21.620 to talk to them if

01:54:22.540 they'd like to share

01:54:23.340 with me exactly

01:54:24.200 what has happened.

01:54:25.420 That'd be great.

01:54:26.080 Especially with

01:54:26.760 regards to the,

01:54:27.960 you know, the

01:54:28.940 administrators of

01:54:30.280 the athletic events

01:54:32.000 and the university

01:54:32.880 administrators,

01:54:33.720 especially, I'd

01:54:35.360 really like to

01:54:36.400 talk to them about

01:54:37.180 how it was that

01:54:38.260 they got finagled

01:54:39.600 into taking

01:54:40.880 mandatory ethical

01:54:43.060 retraining programs

01:54:44.380 as a way of

01:54:45.300 redressing their

01:54:46.160 complaints.

01:54:47.200 Because that is,

01:54:47.980 that is so

01:54:49.240 inexcusable that

01:54:50.380 it's, well, it's

01:54:51.340 a whole new level

01:54:52.280 of miraculous and 1.00

01:54:54.120 malevolent stupidity. 1.00

01:54:56.040 Right? 1.00

01:54:56.420 Oh, you don't have

01:54:57.360 a problem.

01:54:57.940 You're actually 1.00

01:54:58.600 mentally ill. 1.00

01:54:59.640 And if you were

01:55:00.240 just a little bit

01:55:00.980 more compassionate,

01:55:02.280 you wouldn't mind

01:55:03.160 sharing your locker

01:55:04.400 room with a 1.00

01:55:05.340 demented male 1.00

01:55:06.180 narcissist. 0.99

01:55:07.560 Absolutely.

01:55:08.480 Right, right, right.

01:55:09.920 So we could have a

01:55:10.560 fun conversation about

01:55:11.620 that so you can let

01:55:12.580 them know.

01:55:13.300 I will.

01:55:14.240 I will.

01:55:14.680 They'll love that.

01:55:15.260 All right.

01:55:16.320 All right.

01:55:16.900 Okay, so Riley,

01:55:17.800 well, thank you very

01:55:19.340 much for agreeing to

01:55:20.180 talk to me today.

01:55:20.880 That was quite

01:55:21.360 fascinating.

01:55:22.380 And, you know,

01:55:23.520 congratulations on

01:55:24.600 your hard-won

01:55:25.280 resilience.

01:55:26.100 It seems to,

01:55:26.940 you seem, it seems

01:55:28.020 to, all that

01:55:28.620 dedication seems to

01:55:29.640 have paid off in a

01:55:30.560 very strange way.

01:55:31.560 And God only knows

01:55:32.700 where that'll lead.

01:55:33.620 And to everyone

01:55:34.800 watching and listening

01:55:35.820 on YouTube, thanks

01:55:36.880 for your time and

01:55:37.560 attention.

01:55:38.440 To the Daily Wire

01:55:39.060 Plus people for

01:55:39.980 facilitating this

01:55:40.860 conversation.

01:55:41.980 Thank you to the

01:55:42.880 film crew here in

01:55:43.860 Porto, Portugal.

01:55:46.000 Thank you for making

01:55:47.540 this so smooth and

01:55:48.580 making it work.

01:55:49.500 And we're going to,

01:55:50.460 I'm going to continue

01:55:51.120 to talk to Riley for

01:55:52.140 another half an hour on

01:55:53.040 the Daily Wire Plus

01:55:53.840 platform side of things

01:55:55.180 behind the paywall.

01:55:56.560 If any of you who are

01:55:57.660 listening are inclined to

01:55:58.760 throw a little support

01:55:59.460 in their direction, you

01:56:00.640 might want to consider

01:56:01.360 doing that because we

01:56:02.700 are in something

01:56:03.340 approximating pretty deep

01:56:04.620 cultural war and you 0.94

01:56:06.120 might want to, you

01:56:07.220 know, do what you can

01:56:08.240 to support those people

01:56:09.360 who are, well, let's

01:56:12.580 say who are supporting

01:56:13.620 the proposition that

01:56:14.820 women shouldn't compete 1.00

01:56:16.380 against giant men in

01:56:18.060 their own sports, just

01:56:19.520 for starters.

01:56:20.900 So, all right, Riley,

01:56:22.640 good to meet you.

01:56:23.340 Yes, you too.

01:56:24.220 We'll meet again here

01:56:24.920 right away.

01:56:25.540 Okay.

01:56:25.780 Hello, everyone.

01:56:28.620 I would encourage you

01:56:29.500 to continue listening to

01:56:30.920 my conversation with my

01:56:32.280 guest on dailywireplus.com.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - May 11, 2023

356. Narcissists, Frauds, and Enablers： Trans Women and Women's Sports ｜ Riley Gaines

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