The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 368. Speaking Softly and Carrying a Big Stick ｜ Mike Pence

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00:00:57.420 Hello everyone watching and listening.

00:01:10.640 Today I'm speaking with former Vice President and now 2024 Presidential Candidate Mike Pence.

00:01:17.460 We discuss U.S. government overreach in economic matters when it should be playing referee.

00:01:23.980 The indoctrination of our youngest citizens.

00:01:27.620 How parents are being purposefully alienated from their children via ideological capture.

00:01:33.000 The realistic way forward on the Russia-Ukraine front.

00:01:37.260 The loss of international respect due to our current administration.

00:01:40.920 And how we might finally stabilize a nation wrought with cultural warfare.

00:01:45.720 It's very good to have you on this podcast, Mr. Vice President.

00:01:50.160 It's quite the honor, as a matter of fact.

00:01:53.200 I guess that's actually my first question.

00:01:55.800 You know, this, having presidential candidates sit down and do long-form podcasts like this is, it's a new, it's new.

00:02:03.640 Like it's one year new, really.

00:02:05.720 So what made you decide to take the risk, let's say, or take, or grab the advantage or the opportunity to do a podcast with me?

00:02:14.240 Well, Jordan, just thanks for having me on.

00:02:16.840 You know, I've been an admirer of yours for a number of years.

00:02:21.780 Was turned on to your work by my kids, a few of whom you met out on the road and on the trail.

00:02:28.820 And so it's a joy to be with you.

00:02:30.940 Look, the decision to run for the highest office in the land is one that no American would ever take lightly.

00:02:41.220 And my family and I have given great thought, great prayer, and deliberation to this question over the last two years.

00:02:49.280 And frankly, ultimately, it comes down to two things.

00:02:52.060 Number one, it's the privileges that we've had to serve, the experiences that we've developed.

00:02:58.120 I was not only vice president serving American home and abroad, but I was also a governor of a successful state in Indiana where we cut taxes and expanded educational choice.

00:03:08.900 And before that, for 12 years, I was a leader of House conservatives in the Congress of the United States.

00:03:17.000 And the sum total of that 20 years of experience gives us the confidence that if we were given the privilege of serving as president of the United States, that we'd be prepared.

00:03:29.640 We'd be prepared to bring this country back, which leads me to the second reason why we decided to run, and that was, you know, I think this country's in a lot of trouble.

00:03:40.400 I mean, as I've traveled around the country over the last two years, it's clear to me that Joe Biden and the radical left have weakened America at home and abroad.

00:03:51.420 And we need new leadership, I believe, in the Republican Party and in the White House that will set this country back on a path of a strong national defense, of limited government, of a commitment to freedom and to traditional values.

00:04:08.560 And it's in response to that, it's in the belief on which I was raised, I don't know if it made it in 12 rules, but it's an old rule in my life that to whom much is given, much will be required.

00:04:22.120 And my family and I have been given much.

00:04:24.740 We've been given incredible privileges and opportunities to lead.

00:04:28.580 And when we look at the challenges facing our country today, we just felt we had a duty to step forward.

00:04:35.300 We do so with great enthusiasm, and we've been very humbled at the outpouring of support that we've received, MikePence2024.com, and what we've heard out on the road already since we announced a little earlier this week in the great state of Iowa.

00:04:52.100 So we've met twice before.

00:04:54.820 We met in Washington.

00:04:55.780 I met you and your wife, and then we talked for about an hour and a half at one point, about a year ago, I believe.

00:05:01.580 We did.

00:05:01.880 And I walked away from that thinking, if Mike Pence was president, we might see a return to something like blessed normality.

00:05:13.000 And that's a compliment, you know, because I think the times when politics gets radically interesting, something has gone dreadfully wrong.

00:05:24.440 Like, I'd rather see something approximating a sane and normative administration than a continual, exciting, like, even hyper-charismatic battle.

00:05:35.960 I think that's a sign of bad times.

00:05:38.180 And so let me delve into that a little bit.

00:05:42.460 You just outlined your qualifications.

00:05:44.620 Well, I'm very humbled by those words, and, you know, it actually makes me think of another time, maybe a century ago.

00:05:51.860 And I'm not someone that looks backwards or wants to turn the clock back.

00:05:55.060 We could stop that conversation with anyone else now.

00:05:59.180 But, you know, there was a season after World War I where a Republican ticket stepped forward.

00:06:06.820 Literally, their message was a return to normalcy.

00:06:11.080 I get a sense that the American people would like to get back to the policies that were advanced under a president I deeply admire, which was President Calvin Coolidge.

00:06:21.140 He was someone that balanced budgets.

00:06:23.020 He cut taxes.

00:06:24.100 He oversaw an incredible time of American prosperity.

00:06:27.240 But at the core of his philosophy was an often quoted Calvin Coolidge statement that the business of America is business.

00:06:38.680 And by that, he meant the business of America is not the government itself, that the federal government should not or the White House should not be the center of American life.

00:06:50.400 And they actually—Calvin Coolidge's restraint and his instinctive conservatism really set a tone that allowed for a period of incredible innovation in the country.

00:07:03.260 That's where we heard all the incredible stories about progress in manufacturing and industry.

00:07:09.480 And I hold to the view that it's the free market.

00:07:15.920 It's free enterprise.

00:07:17.160 That's where the energy comes from.

00:07:18.920 I grew up in a small business family.

00:07:21.320 I know who makes this country go every day.

00:07:25.380 And the government should be playing the role of the referee of the private sector and not at center court with all the attention focused there.

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00:09:11.280 So, let me touch on something else that you touched on earlier.

00:09:18.700 You talked about the radical left.

00:09:20.640 Now, I spent some time working with Democrats, and I just interviewed Robert F. Kennedy.

00:09:25.320 And I asked him the same question that I've asked every Democrat I've met in the last five years.

00:09:30.520 And the question I asked was, when does the left go too far?

00:09:35.880 And I believe this to be true, that none of the Democrats that I've spoken with, and we spoke in good faith, and we had serious conversations, were able to or willing to answer that question.

00:09:46.900 Now, you made a comment about the radical left.

00:09:48.920 And so, when do you think the left goes too far, and what do you think, if they are going too far, those who are on the far left, like, how do you identify that?

00:09:59.080 And what do you think might be, what's the appropriate response to that?

00:10:04.240 Well, look, I've been at this a while, but I never thought I'd live to see the day that socialism was the animating economic philosophy of one of America's two major political parties.

00:10:18.760 You know, I like to say to people, Joe Biden won the nomination of his party in 2020, but Bernie Sanders won the party.

00:10:27.700 I mean, all the policies that you've seen flowing out of the Democratic Party and out of the Biden administration are driven by European-style socialism and welfare state policies.

00:10:38.540 And that's too far.

00:10:39.660 I mean, as I said, we're a nation that was founded on the constitutional principles of a limited federal government.

00:10:48.760 Free enterprise, free market, private property, all of those things have been a wellspring, along with our faith, our family as a foundation of creating the strongest and freest, most prosperous nation in the history of the world by far.

00:11:04.600 And so that, to me, is a go-to far.

00:11:06.860 But I will tell you, this whole issue of advancing through critical race theory in our schools, literally teaching our kids to judge their peers not by the content of their character, but by the color of their skin, the opposite of the vision of the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

00:11:31.800 And then beyond that, the radical gender ideology that is afoot in our schools, in our universities, and in the culture today, I think has literally shocked the conscience of many parents who might never identify with mainstream conservative philosophies that we share and traditional values that we share, Jordan.

00:11:57.380 But they find themselves struck.

00:11:59.820 I mean, my foundation in Washington, D.C., actually weighed in on a federal lawsuit.

00:12:06.780 The Linmar community schools in Iowa require students to bring in a permission slip from their parents to get a Tylenol.

00:12:14.640 But under the school policy, a student could get a gender transition plan from the health department at that high school without ever informing their parents.

00:12:24.720 And as I said, when we went to Iowa and spoke about it, that's not just bad policy.

00:12:29.700 That's crazy.

00:12:31.000 And I see parents' rights groups are rising up all over the country and pushing back on the radical left's effort to indoctrinate our kids about our history.

00:12:45.000 And also this whole business of trying to communicate this radical gender ideology. 1.00

00:12:54.060 I think there's a wellspring of support pushing back on that.

00:12:57.800 I think you're going to see that show up in 2024.

00:13:00.400 Yeah, well, two things on that, I would say.

00:13:04.280 The first, it was yesterday, you know, the National Health Service of the U.K. declared that they would no longer allow the use of puberty blockers for children except in research situations.

00:13:17.060 And so I believe it's the U.K., Finland, Norway, Sweden, and Holland have all dropped, and Holland is where this started, by the way, the Netherlands, they're dropping the gender affirming model of care.

00:13:30.980 And so the second thing is, yeah, this is a question I've been trying to put forward to Republicans, particularly at the level of the governor.

00:13:40.460 So, you know, the faculties of education in the United States and in Canada have a hammerlock on teacher certification.

00:13:49.000 And public education eats up about 50% of the state budgets.

00:13:53.020 Now, I know this isn't a federal issue precisely, but I can't understand for the life of me why Republicans haven't noticed that by allowing the faculties of education,

00:14:04.340 which are among the most corrupt institutions in higher education, by allowing them to maintain their hammerlock on teacher certification, which they've done nothing to deserve,

00:14:14.920 they're essentially handing over half the state budgets to the worst students at the universities who are the most ideologically addled, who have direct contact with children.

00:14:25.260 So, I mean, from a strategic perspective, this seems to me to be a very bad idea.

00:14:29.640 And, you know, it's hard to push back against a system of ideas like the woke congregation of ideas without also stepping into sensorial territory,

00:14:39.900 you know, which is the threat, I suppose, to some degree with regard to what's happening in Florida.

00:14:44.820 When you think about strategy to forestall the narcissistic progressive agenda,

00:14:53.180 what sort of strategies do you have in mind that could be employed at the federal level?

00:14:56.700 Well, first, I'm, you know, I'm heartened to hear the progress in other countries protecting kids from chemical or surgical gender transition.

00:15:07.860 I strongly support efforts in my home state of Indiana and around the country to prohibit gender transition, chemical or surgical treatment for children under the age of 18.

00:15:20.200 I look at, I'm libertarian enough to say, if you're an adult, live while you live, you know, I may not agree with decisions you make, but we'll love you and love our neighbor as ourselves as my faith requires, right?

00:15:36.520 But live and let live.

00:15:37.980 But for our kids, absolutely not.

00:15:40.920 We've got to take a strong stand.

00:15:42.480 I did a town hall on CNN not long ago, and the host of the show insisted on asking me, I think about five times in a row, about why I took such a strong stand on that.

00:15:53.780 And I said, look, I'm standing here not just as a former vice president and a governor.

00:15:58.000 I'm a dad.

00:15:59.120 I'm a grandfather.

00:16:00.300 This is really about protecting our kids from making decisions early in their lives when they're not equipped to make them.

00:16:07.360 There's a reason we don't let kids drive cars until they're 16, and, you know, you can't even get a tattoo under the age of 18 in my home state.

00:16:16.760 So this principle of protecting kids from irreversible choices, and you know and have spoken more eloquently than maybe anyone else about the deleterious effects.

00:16:28.920 Now, go back to your question, because I think it's the fundamental question, and that is, so how do we push back?

00:16:35.860 And I will tell you, I believe that giving parents the ability to choose where their children go to school, public, private, parochial, or homeschool, is the cure for what ails education in America.

00:16:51.660 I think your point about teacher certification is a profound one, but I'm very struck by the fact that someone who I'm sure you respect a great deal,

00:17:00.260 in fact, a couple, Milton and Rose Friedman, maybe one of the great free market economic minds of the last century.

00:17:09.220 He left his entire state to a foundation to promote one idea, and that was educational choice.

00:17:18.100 Because Milton Friedman said, our form of government will not survive without an educated citizenry,

00:17:26.700 and that the only power strong enough to transform and renew American education is the free market.

00:17:35.960 It's a very simple idea.

00:17:37.380 I'm proud to say the state of Indiana, Jordan, was one of the pioneers in educational choice.

00:17:42.560 We were home to the very first privately funded school voucher program in the country that's been replicated all over the country for decades.

00:17:51.520 But when I was governor, we had a small educational choice program.

00:17:56.260 I doubled it.

00:17:57.160 I made it the largest in the country.

00:17:58.720 I don't know if the viewers and listeners of your podcast know this, but we really turned a corner very recently in this debate when the state of Arizona,

00:18:13.100 under Governor Doug Ducey, in the last year in office, passed the first ever universal school choice program in the country.

00:18:23.320 The state of Indiana has essentially followed.

00:18:27.260 About 98% of people of our state now have educational choice.

00:18:31.760 Iowa has followed.

00:18:33.020 Other states are following.

00:18:35.000 And I would submit to you that whether we're talking about the radical left's agenda in our schools,

00:18:41.840 whether it's critical race theory, woke politics, or some of the profound issues in higher education you're speaking about,

00:18:48.120 you give parents the ability to choose where their kids go to school, to be able to take their business down the street and find a school that, you know,

00:18:59.000 it gives them a more classical education that, you know, my schoolteacher wife would tell you that teaches phonics to kids.

00:19:07.760 I mean, parents will go shop and they will, I don't, I believe what, wherever people are on that ladder of success in America,

00:19:17.940 everybody loves their kids, everybody loves their grandkids, and you give them the power to choose where their kids go to school

00:19:25.340 and will turn education around in America faster than you could imagine.

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00:20:41.060 So I have a question, specific question about that.

00:20:44.480 When I was talking to one of my wiser friends about the issue of school choice,

00:20:48.460 the objection he raised, and I wasn't really sure what to make of it,

00:20:52.220 was that if you provide parents with choice,

00:20:55.540 what you end up with is a public school system that has the worst teachers

00:21:00.380 and the students who are most disaffected and alienated from their parents.

00:21:04.960 And so he felt that there was an element of that that would be disastrous

00:21:08.280 for the kids who are in the worst shape with regards to parents and future opportunity.

00:21:13.820 What's the experience of Indiana and the other states that have moved in the direction of school choice,

00:21:19.500 what has that taught you or revealed in that regard?

00:21:21.760 Well, I used to say, you know, long before I held office for 20 years, I had a talk radio show.

00:21:28.440 We used to talk a lot about this.

00:21:30.000 And I grew up in a family that ran gas stations.

00:21:34.060 I actually worked for five years, helped pay my way through college pumping gas.

00:21:39.260 And so I would kind of break it down this way.

00:21:41.580 I'd say to people, look, if there's only one gas station in town

00:21:44.260 and you had to buy your gas there, how clean do you think the men's room would be, right? 0.93

00:21:52.080 So it's competition for customers makes everybody better.

00:21:58.660 And I will tell you, our experience in Indiana has been that our public schools have gotten better.

00:22:04.300 They have stepped into that competition and improved once parents become empowered.

00:22:13.560 We've seen parents in Indiana over the decades choose another public school over the public school that's failing them.

00:22:20.860 And I will tell you, it's always been impressive to me that from very early on,

00:22:29.080 the African-American community in this country has been a generation ahead of the rest of the country in support for educational choice.

00:22:41.360 Jordan, I mean, literally, literally back in the 1990s in Indiana, when the overall population,

00:22:50.300 even in a state that was promoting school choice, maybe get 50, 55 percent of Hoosiers that would support allowing parents to choose where their kids go to school,

00:23:00.440 the number in the African-American community in our state was closer to 70 to 75 percent.

00:23:05.180 And you and I know why.

00:23:06.540 It's because of the minority communities in many of our major cities.

00:23:10.640 Their kids are relegated to some of the most failing and dangerous schools in the country.

00:23:16.460 Those parents know.

00:23:17.640 They say, give me the choice.

00:23:19.300 They've taken that choice.

00:23:21.560 And a lot of times they go to the school that's in their neighborhood.

00:23:27.980 They go to the little Catholic school that's just down around the corner.

00:23:31.480 And it engages parents.

00:23:33.100 I've heard the argument your friend made, and look, I don't mean to demean it, but it's just not been our experience.

00:23:39.600 I mean, literally, I think of, you know, John F. Kennedy back when he talked about cutting taxes across the board, including the capital gains tax.

00:23:48.520 And he said, you know, a rising tide lifts all boats.

00:23:52.020 You know, you create competition in education in America, as we have in Indiana, as states around the country are doing.

00:23:58.500 All the schools get better.

00:24:01.940 And as someone who's married to a woman that taught for 15 years in a public school, 15 years in a Christian school, I could tell you firsthand, there's an overwhelming majority that are teaching in our public schools or dedicated public servants, men and women that care deeply.

00:24:19.760 It's just the management not being responsive, pushing down some sort of a liberal agenda, watering down some of the fundamentals and criteria for a good education.

00:24:32.280 I think that washes away through the force of the free market.

00:24:38.360 I really do.

00:24:38.840 So, I feel obligated to warn you that, according to the dictates of YouTube, apparently, we've both now engaged in hate speech and the incitement of violence.

00:24:49.320 So, I had a YouTube video taken off my channel yesterday, an interview with Helen Joyce, who wrote a book on the trans minor surgery phenomenon.

00:25:01.720 And so, I'm sure we've broken the YouTube rules already in this discussion.

00:25:05.780 So, it'll be interesting to see what they do as a consequence of that.

00:25:09.960 So, all right.

00:25:10.500 So, you think that the experience in Indiana has shown that because of the introduction of competition, everybody benefits.

00:25:17.980 And you said, in particular, perhaps black students and their parents.

00:25:22.820 Okay.

00:25:23.040 So, that's a good foray in that direction.

00:25:27.680 Let me ask you a couple of questions in a different direction, if you don't mind.

00:25:33.000 I think often at the moment that we're all fiddling while Rome burns because, possibly, because of the situation in Russia and Ukraine.

00:25:41.540 And, you know, one of the things that I found heartening, let's say, about the Trump presidency, where you served as vice president, was that there were four years without a major war.

00:25:51.940 And your administration or that administration also advanced the Abraham Accords, which was a major move in the direction of peace in the Middle East.

00:25:59.920 And now we have this war percolating away madly between Russia and Ukraine.

00:26:05.800 And it's really a proxy war in many ways for the West and Russia.

00:26:09.080 And, you know, it doesn't look very good to me.

00:26:12.760 And so, if you became president, first of all, what do you think the way forward is on that front?

00:26:18.480 I know the hawks are saying, the hawks on the Republican side in particular, and I think this is also true on the Democrat side, are taking this as an opportunity to demolish Russia's conventional forces.

00:26:28.860 And to take them permanently out as a conventional enemy, let's say.

00:26:32.780 Now, the problem I see in that is that when you push someone as powerful as Russia into a corner when they're nuclear armed and their conventional forces are weak, that that loosens the finger on the nuclear trigger.

00:26:44.440 And it also doesn't seem to me that given how dependent we are on Russia and Ukraine for food and for energy, that weakening both of those countries on something approximating a permanent basis strikes me as reasonable long-term policy.

00:27:00.220 So, what do you think the danger is on the Russia-Ukraine front, and what would your administration, what steps would your administration take in that direction?

00:27:07.740 Well, I'm someone that believes that America is the leader of the free world.

00:27:12.320 We're the arsenal of democracy.

00:27:15.040 In 1985, Ronald Reagan, in a State of the Union address, articulated what came to be known as the Reagan Doctrine, which essentially said,

00:27:22.540 it'll be the policy of the United States that if you're willing to fight the communists in your country, we'll give you the means to fight them there so we don't have to fight them here.

00:27:31.760 And it was part and parcel of what ultimately brought down the Soviet Union.

00:27:37.760 And I believe that that wisdom is still true today, that Ukraine is not our war, but freedom is our fight.

00:27:46.480 Now, I know there are people in the presidential contest in my party who have spoke admiringly of Vladimir Putin's genius.

00:27:59.440 Others have said that it's simply a territorial dispute.

00:28:02.480 Well, I can tell you, I know the difference between a genius and a war criminal.

00:28:05.600 And I know the difference between a territorial dispute and a Russian invasion.

00:28:11.580 I mean, what's happening in Ukraine today is an unprovoked invasion that is claiming hundreds of thousands of lives.

00:28:17.780 And I believe it's incumbent on the United States of America to continue to lead the West and provide the Ukrainian military what they need to repel the Russian invasion and reclaim their sovereignty.

00:28:30.700 Now, I believe that's the right thing to do.

00:28:34.280 My wife and I, Jordan, about a year ago, were visiting a Christian relief group in Poland that was assisting refugees.

00:28:42.840 And when we arrived, we were told that we were cleared to go into Ukraine.

00:28:47.920 This was a month after hostilities had begun.

00:28:51.020 And we went 10 miles across the border to a refugee center.

00:28:55.320 And Jordan, I say this with a broken heart.

00:28:57.380 I saw things I thought I'd never see other than in black and white films from 75 years ago.

00:29:05.040 I mean, there were all crowds of all women of every age, children of every age, carrying everything they could carry on their backs, literally fleeing this unconscionable Russian invasion.

00:29:19.620 And so I think we have an obligation to be there.

00:29:22.740 But I also want to say to you, I think it's in our national interest.

00:29:26.000 There's others have said that it's not.

00:29:27.540 I've met Vladimir Putin.

00:29:28.980 I believe it was no coincidence that ours was the only administration in the 21st century where Putin did not attempt to redraw international lines by force.

00:29:42.140 I mean, he rolled the tanks into the country of Georgia under the Bush administration.

00:29:46.320 He, of course, took Crimea under the Obama administration.

00:29:48.600 And now he's rolled across the border to Ukraine.

00:29:51.340 I think the reason he didn't do that during our years was because we had the largest increase in military spending in more than a generation.

00:30:03.000 We unleashed our military against ISIS, and they took them down without firing a shot.

00:30:07.920 We actually took down 100 Russian mercenaries in a conflict in Syria without one American casualty.

00:30:15.300 We shut down the Nord Stream 2 pipeline for all of the rhetorical efforts by my old running mate to reopen dialogue with Russia.

00:30:27.760 We were very tough on Russia, and we were willing to use American military force to defend our interest and defend our allies around the world.

00:30:36.320 And I think that kept Russia in check. 0.81

00:30:39.760 So I think this is a moment that needs to be met with American strength.

00:30:44.360 And I'm going to continue to advocate for that.

00:30:47.240 I also think at the end of the day, if Russia was able to overrun Ukraine, in my judgment, it would not be long before the Russian military was crossing a border where we would have to send troops like my son, the Marine, my son-in-law, the Navy pilot.

00:31:07.920 If he crosses into a NATO ally, then we're involved.

00:31:11.940 We should not ever send American troops into Ukraine.

00:31:15.040 We should hasten the delivery of military equipment and give them the ability to defend themselves.

00:31:21.840 But I think stopping Russia there is also in the interest of the United States. 0.62

00:31:25.720 And it sends a deafening message to China. 0.66

00:31:29.060 Lastly, Jordan, it sends a deafening message to China. 0.87

00:31:32.380 If we repel, we give Ukraine the ability to repel the Russian invasion, then I have no doubt in my mind that President Xi, who I've also met and spoken to privately,

00:31:43.060 I think he'll get more instruction from that regarding his potential military ambitions in the Asia-Pacific than anything else that we could do.

00:31:57.280 I was just informed your team once, 30 seconds to speak with you.

00:32:01.200 My team doesn't need me.

00:32:03.420 Oh, hi.

00:32:04.700 Oh, it's just my wife said hi.

00:32:05.980 Oh, well, that's a good emergency.

00:32:12.520 Yeah.

00:32:13.940 Stick your head, you can see if you look at the screen.

00:32:16.860 Karen Pence, Jordan Peterson.

00:32:18.100 Hello.

00:32:19.000 Nice to see you.

00:32:19.440 Hello, nice to see you again.

00:32:21.140 Yeah, nice to see you.

00:32:22.320 Hi.

00:32:22.680 Thank you for lending us your husband for an hour.

00:32:25.840 Anyway, hello.

00:32:27.840 I told him the kids are big fans.

00:32:29.680 That's how we got here.

00:32:30.260 Yeah.

00:32:30.440 So, let me ask you then, more specifically, if the war in Russia plays out the way that would be most beneficial to the West,

00:32:41.520 what's your vision for victory and the cessation of conflict?

00:32:45.440 What is it, do you suppose, that Russia has to leave on the table or bring to the table in order to bring this war to a halt?

00:32:52.700 Yeah, I just think, I think we have to support the Ukraine military until they repel this Russian invasion from across their borders.

00:33:02.260 I don't, now, I'll defer to President Zelensky and the government in Ukraine if they have a different view.

00:33:11.200 But I think that giving them the means to push Russia out from where it commenced this invasion is absolutely essential to sending a message to the wider world that America is the leader of the free world and will support those that are standing for their freedom and sovereignty.

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00:34:50.640 And do you think that would mean that the Russians would have to abandon the territory they took on the east?

00:35:00.840 And also, what about the situation in Crimea?

00:35:04.380 What do you see the post-war—I don't understand exactly what might constitute the post-war boundaries of Ukraine.

00:35:10.960 Yeah, well, I think—

00:35:11.860 If things worked out as well as they could.

00:35:13.960 Well, again, I would leave that question, which predated our administration, to the Ukrainian government.

00:35:24.380 But with regard to this invasion, this incursion, the Donbass region, I just don't think we can tolerate it. 1.00

00:35:32.220 And let me also say, President Biden said in his State of the Union address that we're there as long as it takes.

00:35:40.280 Jordan, it shouldn't take that long.

00:35:41.820 We're the arsenal of democracy.

00:35:44.580 We've been dragging our feet on giving them equipment.

00:35:47.940 We promised them 33 Abrams tanks all the way back in January.

00:35:52.960 They still don't have them.

00:35:54.760 We've been dragging our feet on giving them aircraft.

00:35:58.420 You know, it was our administration that started back providing military resources to Ukraine.

00:36:06.680 The Obama-Biden administration had refused to provide any military resources.

00:36:12.200 They were sending blankets and MREs.

00:36:16.500 We came in.

00:36:17.400 We provided them javelin missiles.

00:36:19.440 We provided them resources that they were able to use in this fight over the four years of our administration.

00:36:26.480 And the Biden administration immediately ended that when they came in.

00:36:31.200 But at the initiation of hostility, he started to catch up.

00:36:34.200 But I want to be clear, all of your viewers and listeners, Joe Biden has been slow on the uptake.

00:36:40.420 And I think that, frankly, the disastrous withdrawal in Afghanistan created the conditions that embolden the enemies of freedom.

00:36:48.620 Now, Vladimir Putin is the one that's responsible for this unconscionable invasion.

00:36:53.440 But I have no doubt in my mind that that disastrous withdrawal in Afghanistan emboldened him to move.

00:37:00.060 And I honestly believe that it's been the failed policies of the Biden administration that are contributing to not only war in Eastern Europe, Chinese provocations,

00:37:12.360 but for heaven's sakes, Jordan, after we achieved the first peace accord in nearly 30 years in the Middle East,

00:37:21.220 the Biden administration did nothing to build on the Abraham Accords, sent ambiguous signals to Israel about our support,

00:37:31.100 and then stood idly by while China negotiated a treaty between Iran and Saudi Arabia.

00:37:40.340 I mean, there is a vacuum of American leadership on the world stage today.

00:37:47.320 And the antidote here is American engagement, American leadership, and American strength.

00:37:53.980 It's also worth folks that are looking on knowing the Biden administration has been busy cutting military spending since day one.

00:38:02.600 And the only thing positive about that gigantic supplemental bill that passed at the end of the last Congress was that it caught up on military budget cuts that the Biden administration had been advancing.

00:38:18.540 But with this new debt ceiling deal, people deserve to know that after you net out inflation, it's got a 1% cut in military spending.

00:38:26.600 China's floating a new battleship every month and has doubled its military budget in the last 15 years.

00:38:34.540 And here we have an administration that is cutting military spending, all the while they're carrying that political correctness and critical race theory and radical gender ideology into the Pentagon's hallways itself. 1.00

00:38:51.920 So we need new leadership.

00:38:54.140 We need to be building a military that's fitted to the times.

00:38:58.080 That's also the best way to ensure peace in the world.

00:39:00.940 Always has been, always will.

00:39:02.620 So your sense is that the best strategy for dealing with Russia and also, tell me if I've got this right, and also simultaneously China is to bolster the American military to ensure that Russia, that the sufficient aid is provided to Ukraine to stop Russia in its tracks.

00:39:24.300 That that sends the proper message to China, that that would require further support for the American military, and that that's the best way to stop Russian adventurism. 0.71

00:39:35.520 What do you think of arguments that Russia had felt threatened as a consequence of NATO incursion into Ukraine, and that a fair part of this conflict emerged because the Russians felt that they were being encroached upon by the expansion of the NATO alliance and the potential inclusion of Ukraine into that domain?

00:39:56.540 I mean, and you know, it's also the case that Putin certainly has appealed to his people on that front.

00:40:02.760 He's also told his people that he is a buttress against the kind of woke ideology that we've also discussed.

00:40:10.240 And so, well, those are all.

00:40:12.600 And then the third problem, I suppose, is that I'm still concerned, understanding your argument, I'm still concerned that pushing the Russians into a corner where they become dangerously weak heightens the probability of, let's say, limited exchange of nuclear weapons on the battlefield.

00:40:29.900 So, you said, we frighten China, we keep Russia at bay. 0.85

00:40:34.800 I'm concerned about the fact that the Russians perhaps share some of the more conservative Western views with regard to the woke nightmare, and also that if we push them into a corner, they're more likely to have an itchy nuclear trigger finger. 0.99

00:40:48.420 So.

00:40:49.220 Well, I just honestly believe the NATO argument, the threat from NATO, that's all just posturing by Putin.

00:40:55.980 You carefully examine his public statements for years, Jordan.

00:41:00.160 He's been very clear that his ambition is to reestablish what was the old Soviet sphere of influence in Eastern Europe.

00:41:11.060 And so there's, I mean, look, NATO has been a peaceful alliance of the West, forged as it was in the aftermath of World War II.

00:41:22.460 And I think there's one reason and there's one person to blame for the unconscionable invasion and war that's raging in Ukraine today, and that's Vladimir Putin.

00:41:37.200 And we just simply need to hold him to account.

00:41:39.020 With regard to the fact that we never want to forget that Russia is the second largest nuclear power in the world, I believe we need to make it clear that our military support for Ukraine is for repelling the Russian invasion in Ukraine and restoring their sovereignty.

00:42:03.320 I think that it's absolutely essential that the commander chief of the United States make it clear to the Ukrainian military and our alliance how far our support goes.

00:42:17.200 And I think that making it clear that this is about reestablishing what's been claimed and not intruding upon or attempting to, you know, move into the sovereign territory of Russia is important.

00:42:36.400 And look, but this is statecraft, this is real, and I just have to hold view that weakness arouses evil, but peace comes through strength.

00:42:51.040 And I think that by electing a new president that understands that basic principle that's able to marshal the support in the Congress to build a military fitted to the times by hastening the support, if the war isn't already over, hastening the support of the Ukrainian military to repel the Russian invasion.

00:43:10.540 I think the world quiets down very quickly.

00:43:14.540 And again, the argument that I really reject is people that say, well, no, the real issue in the world today is China.

00:43:22.460 Well, okay, I've met President Xi.

00:43:25.440 I've been to China.

00:43:27.640 I'm a student of China's ambitions.

00:43:30.520 I've met with all of our allies in the region.

00:43:32.380 I understand what China's up to and how broad their ambitions are.

00:43:39.680 But I also believe that, as you can see, the alliance has been forged between Xi and Putin, that Xi is looking very carefully at how the West responds to Russia's attempt to redraw international lines by force.

00:43:58.740 And while it's continued its provocations, even over the last two weeks, with Navy ships at sea in the Taiwan Straits and in the air,

00:44:10.760 sending a message to them that the free world will not tolerate redrawing international lines by military force,

00:44:20.300 will contribute greatly to tamping down China's ambitions in the Asia-Pacific.

00:44:31.200 Two questions then.

00:44:32.960 Do you think that Putin respects Biden as a negotiating partner?

00:44:39.720 And do you think that Putin would respect you as a negotiating partner?

00:44:44.560 And maybe why to both of those questions?

00:44:48.020 Well, it would be hard for me to believe that Putin or any leader around the world,

00:44:55.420 I think they respect the United States of America.

00:44:59.980 But I don't know that they respect the president of the United States today at the level that they should.

00:45:10.580 And it just comes from a series of steps by this administration to unilaterally reopen Nord Stream 2 to Russia.

00:45:21.580 I mean, it was a policy of appeasement to reverse one of the policies we'd put into effect.

00:45:28.800 Made no sense at all to attempt to get back into the Iran nuclear deal.

00:45:34.900 Literally hat in hand, begging the mullahs in Iran to come back to the table and renegotiate until it finally fell apart,

00:45:49.520 was just absurd.

00:45:52.760 And, of course, the fact that we had negotiated an agreement in Afghanistan with the Taliban

00:46:00.620 that made it clear that they were required to work with the Afghan national government,

00:46:09.780 never harm any military personnel, and never harbor terrorists.

00:46:15.680 Those were the three preconditions.

00:46:17.400 Or we made it clear to them that we would hit them harder than they'd ever been hit before.

00:46:23.180 Eighteen months went by in our administration and the early days of this one,

00:46:27.000 where there was not a single American casualty in Afghanistan.

00:46:30.960 The Taliban knew we meant business.

00:46:34.220 But in this administration, when we began an orderly withdrawal,

00:46:38.580 which, for some incomprehensible reason, got delayed into well after the fighting season.

00:46:46.800 And if you recall, President Biden, it was leaked that they were talking about making the departure on September 11th,

00:46:54.120 which was incomprehensible to me that we would mark that date,

00:46:58.600 a date of a dark day in American history,

00:47:03.640 the source of which was launched from Afghanistan for the withdrawal.

00:47:09.020 In any event, that he moved the date of withdrawal, he delayed it,

00:47:12.820 he gave the Taliban the opportunity to reconstitute.

00:47:15.400 But the initial failing was when the Taliban began to move their military in the north into Masar al-Sharif,

00:47:25.380 and we did nothing.

00:47:27.760 I think that set into motion not only the disaster that claimed the lives of 13 American servicemen and women,

00:47:34.940 courageous servicemen and women,

00:47:37.140 who were standing at the airport in Kabul trying to save lives.

00:47:41.740 But I actually think it set the conditions for the Afghan National Army to throw their guns down,

00:47:49.660 make no opposition at all.

00:47:52.360 And since then, we've also confirmed,

00:47:55.720 and at least in one instant,

00:47:57.460 taken successful action against them harboring terrorists once again in Afghanistan.

00:48:01.660 But all of those conditions, I believe,

00:48:05.020 may well, I don't know,

00:48:06.660 may well have contributed to Putin,

00:48:09.120 assuming that if he rolled into Ukraine,

00:48:12.720 that the same thing would happen.

00:48:14.860 I mean, you remember, Joe Biden actually was asked,

00:48:18.140 would we get involved if there was a Russian invasion?

00:48:21.780 And he actually made reference,

00:48:22.920 if it was a small invasion,

00:48:24.740 it would depend.

00:48:26.660 And then when the invasion began,

00:48:29.260 if you remember,

00:48:30.760 the administration leaked to the media

00:48:32.260 that they'd reached out to President Zelensky,

00:48:34.160 who I know and became familiar with.

00:48:37.080 They reached out and said,

00:48:38.420 we'll send a plane,

00:48:40.820 like Ghani,

00:48:42.780 who got on a plane and got out of Afghanistan

00:48:45.240 as soon as things began to collapse.

00:48:48.440 And in words that I think will echo into history,

00:48:51.180 President Zelensky said,

00:48:52.500 we don't need a plane,

00:48:53.700 we need ammunition.

00:48:54.500 And he squared his shoulders

00:48:58.420 and fought back against the Russian invasion.

00:49:02.220 So all of this,

00:49:03.300 when you say to me,

00:49:04.880 look, I'm an American,

00:49:05.880 I'm a patriotic American,

00:49:07.140 I love our country,

00:49:08.060 the world respects the United States of America,

00:49:10.920 but do they respect our current commander-in-chief

00:49:13.100 at the level that they should?

00:49:16.040 I would argue they do not.

00:49:18.240 Okay, so the second part of that question is,

00:49:21.240 do you think Putin would respect you?

00:49:23.540 But I want to modify that question slightly too,

00:49:25.720 because there must be a temptation

00:49:27.880 at this level of intense negotiation,

00:49:30.860 I suppose a psychological temptation,

00:49:33.160 also to not be strong,

00:49:35.820 but to look strong, right?

00:49:37.300 And you can imagine that

00:49:38.640 a weak man in a position of power

00:49:41.280 will fall prey to the temptation

00:49:43.580 to look strong

00:49:44.960 and to therefore put forward more force

00:49:47.680 than is absolutely necessary

00:49:49.700 in an attempt to buttress his image.

00:49:52.700 And so I would like to know

00:49:54.620 how it's best for leaders

00:49:57.680 to protect themselves against that temptation.

00:50:00.180 So if you became president,

00:50:01.880 you would step into the hot seat

00:50:03.380 that's being heated up

00:50:06.260 in many ways simultaneously.

00:50:08.760 How do you protect yourself psychologically

00:50:11.440 against the temptation

00:50:12.900 to beat your chest

00:50:15.540 and be a strong man

00:50:16.640 instead of trying to settle

00:50:19.160 the situation internationally

00:50:20.680 in the manner that's best

00:50:22.520 for everyone going forward?

00:50:24.120 And this pertains to the question

00:50:26.060 of why Putin might regard you

00:50:28.600 as a respectable negotiating partner.

00:50:31.860 So let me let you elaborate on that.

00:50:35.420 I mentioned Calvin Coolidge

00:50:36.780 at the outset of our conversation.

00:50:39.420 In my announcement speech last week,

00:50:41.440 I quoted Calvin Coolidge,

00:50:42.660 who said,

00:50:43.000 it's altogether a benefit to the country

00:50:44.720 and to the officeholder

00:50:48.580 where the president

00:50:49.260 does not consider himself

00:50:50.400 to be a great man.

00:50:53.360 And I can assure you,

00:50:56.020 I'm never confused about that.

00:50:59.780 I'm an everyday American.

00:51:01.380 I'm a small-town guy

00:51:02.600 from southern Indiana,

00:51:04.020 raised by a combat veteran,

00:51:05.780 family living the American dream.

00:51:07.820 But look, you ask a very profound question.

00:51:12.640 And I go back again to history.

00:51:14.560 That's what all of my background was in college.

00:51:18.080 I was a student of American history.

00:51:20.180 Teddy Roosevelt, I think, said it well,

00:51:23.160 that on the global stage,

00:51:24.580 America should walk softly

00:51:25.760 and carry a big stick.

00:51:29.560 That, you know, I've had,

00:51:33.680 I'd leave it to others

00:51:34.740 to judge how my leadership

00:51:36.460 would be assessed.

00:51:37.280 But I think I've got a reputation

00:51:39.240 for standing my ground.

00:51:41.340 I think people know

00:51:42.500 that my yes is yes

00:51:43.460 and my no is no.

00:51:45.380 The way that I would maintain that,

00:51:47.200 I would tell you,

00:51:48.620 for me as a Christian believer,

00:51:50.860 is a daily time

00:51:52.820 in devotions and prayer.

00:51:55.080 I'm someone that really

00:51:56.500 believes in

00:51:58.840 investing time in my faith

00:52:02.680 to study and understand

00:52:03.920 what the Bible teaches

00:52:05.960 about wisdom.

00:52:07.220 And I've always sought

00:52:08.520 to apply that

00:52:09.300 in my life.

00:52:11.000 But with regard

00:52:11.700 to Vladimir Putin,

00:52:12.460 I can tell you,

00:52:13.020 I've had a conversation

00:52:13.920 with him one-on-one.

00:52:15.720 And it was at

00:52:16.720 an international conference.

00:52:19.520 And we had a brief exchange

00:52:21.340 and he wanted

00:52:21.820 a private moment together.

00:52:22.980 This was in the year

00:52:24.360 leading up to the midterm elections

00:52:25.800 in 2018, Jordan.

00:52:28.400 We had a poll aside.

00:52:29.580 There were a fair number

00:52:30.160 of people around.

00:52:31.000 And this has been written about.

00:52:32.260 And I wrote about it

00:52:32.920 in my book.

00:52:35.060 But as he began

00:52:35.920 to engage me,

00:52:36.760 he had an international conference

00:52:38.620 coming up

00:52:39.140 with President Trump

00:52:39.980 and he asked

00:52:41.500 if I would convey

00:52:43.440 a desire

00:52:44.120 for nuclear non-proliferation

00:52:46.000 that we've got to begin

00:52:46.820 to talk about those things.

00:52:48.360 I nodded and listened.

00:52:49.860 And then I looked at him

00:52:50.600 and I said,

00:52:51.680 standing just a couple

00:52:52.560 of feet away from him,

00:52:54.340 I looked at him and said,

00:52:56.060 well, Mr. President,

00:52:56.740 I have something

00:52:57.160 I'd like to say to you.

00:52:59.580 And he said,

00:53:00.360 through Russian,

00:53:01.040 through an interpreter,

00:53:01.680 he said,

00:53:02.160 go ahead.

00:53:04.260 And I said,

00:53:04.940 we know what happened

00:53:05.720 in 2016

00:53:06.440 and it can't happen again.

00:53:10.080 And with that,

00:53:10.680 I'm sure he speaks

00:53:12.280 perfect English.

00:53:13.120 With that,

00:53:13.480 he feigned

00:53:14.280 that he didn't understand

00:53:15.380 my statement.

00:53:18.180 And he turned

00:53:20.440 to his foreign minister,

00:53:21.780 Lavrov,

00:53:22.260 who was standing nearby.

00:53:23.280 And Lavrov said,

00:53:24.340 in English,

00:53:25.280 elections.

00:53:27.060 I mean, look,

00:53:27.440 in the 2016 election,

00:53:29.400 the Russians did not interfere

00:53:31.220 on behalf of any

00:53:32.140 particular candidate.

00:53:33.520 They interfered

00:53:34.320 across the board.

00:53:36.040 It's what they do

00:53:36.820 in Western countries.

00:53:37.920 They sow dissension

00:53:39.860 and misinformation.

00:53:41.960 And we know for a fact

00:53:43.300 it happened.

00:53:43.880 And I'd said so publicly.

00:53:46.080 But so he turned back to me

00:53:47.180 after Lavrov said,

00:53:48.420 elections,

00:53:50.000 and said,

00:53:52.780 through Russian,

00:53:53.520 he said,

00:53:53.860 no, that wasn't us.

00:53:54.780 We had nothing to do

00:53:55.740 with that.

00:53:56.120 That wasn't us.

00:53:56.840 And I nodded

00:53:58.180 and said,

00:54:00.020 Mr. President,

00:54:00.820 I'm very aware

00:54:01.520 of what your public

00:54:02.120 position is on this.

00:54:04.520 But I'm telling you,

00:54:06.220 we know what happened

00:54:07.120 in 2016

00:54:07.820 and it can't happen again.

00:54:11.440 At that point,

00:54:12.400 he shrugged,

00:54:15.620 did a half nod,

00:54:16.760 and the conversation

00:54:18.720 moved on.

00:54:20.000 I mean,

00:54:20.220 that's really where

00:54:21.340 it begins,

00:54:21.960 I think,

00:54:22.440 between heads of state.

00:54:23.820 And I've been able

00:54:24.240 to represent the United States

00:54:25.560 on the world stage.

00:54:28.580 That wasn't a very

00:54:29.820 private conversation.

00:54:31.080 There were a lot of staff

00:54:31.900 on both sides.

00:54:32.880 There's pictures of it

00:54:33.820 you can find on the internet

00:54:34.840 pretty easily.

00:54:36.020 And there were reporters

00:54:36.960 within earshot

00:54:37.800 that wrote about that moment.

00:54:39.740 But I think

00:54:40.220 the most important thing

00:54:41.520 between heads of state

00:54:42.580 is that

00:54:43.360 you have the ability

00:54:45.000 to look people in the eye

00:54:46.180 and

00:54:46.680 tell them

00:54:49.880 what your expectation is

00:54:51.140 and make it clear

00:54:52.460 where the consequences

00:54:53.320 will be

00:54:53.840 even without saying it.

00:54:56.520 And I would tell you

00:54:57.940 that if I had

00:54:58.500 the great privilege

00:54:59.080 of being president

00:55:00.280 of the United States,

00:55:01.100 I'd look for friends

00:55:03.020 all over the world

00:55:03.780 for the United States.

00:55:04.700 I'd look for opportunities

00:55:05.520 for peace.

00:55:06.620 But, you know,

00:55:09.060 I'd always,

00:55:10.100 I'd have one hand

00:55:10.980 extended in friendship

00:55:11.960 and the other hand

00:55:13.580 resting comfortably

00:55:14.500 on the holster

00:55:15.220 of the arsenal

00:55:15.820 of democracy

00:55:16.520 so that

00:55:17.980 those who are

00:55:19.080 enemies of freedom

00:55:19.860 around the world

00:55:20.560 who would threaten

00:55:21.680 our people

00:55:22.180 or threaten our allies

00:55:23.220 would know

00:55:25.440 America means business.

00:55:28.740 So, we have time.

00:55:30.020 I know you have

00:55:30.560 a hard out in an hour.

00:55:32.860 We have time

00:55:33.840 for one more question.

00:55:34.980 And so,

00:55:35.460 I'm going to ask you

00:55:36.360 a follow-up

00:55:36.900 to something

00:55:37.500 you just described.

00:55:38.400 I mean,

00:55:38.560 when I met you

00:55:39.200 and your wife

00:55:39.740 and when we talked,

00:55:41.320 I did get the impression,

00:55:43.300 you know,

00:55:43.660 that I walked away

00:55:45.100 from that conversation

00:55:46.000 thinking that

00:55:46.760 for what it's worth

00:55:48.840 that you struck me

00:55:50.720 as a man

00:55:51.220 who could be trusted.

00:55:53.700 And I already

00:55:54.700 made reference

00:55:55.320 to the fact

00:55:55.880 that I think

00:55:56.340 you could bring

00:55:56.920 a certain degree

00:55:58.000 of admirable normalcy

00:56:00.120 to the insanity

00:56:01.740 that reigns

00:56:02.560 at the moment.

00:56:03.880 But I would say

00:56:04.600 in reference

00:56:05.060 to the great man issue,

00:56:06.780 you served

00:56:07.720 for a long while

00:56:08.880 as the right-hand man

00:56:10.400 of a man

00:56:11.020 who I think

00:56:11.560 does style himself

00:56:12.720 rightly or wrongly

00:56:13.740 a great man

00:56:14.500 and of course

00:56:16.440 the shadow

00:56:17.040 of Trump

00:56:17.740 or the legacy

00:56:18.380 of Trump

00:56:18.920 hangs over you

00:56:20.240 rightly or wrongly.

00:56:22.240 Why is it

00:56:22.860 that you

00:56:23.440 served with Trump

00:56:25.140 for so long?

00:56:26.220 Why did you think

00:56:26.880 that was

00:56:27.380 in your best interest,

00:56:28.780 his and the country's?

00:56:30.040 And why do you

00:56:31.180 now think

00:56:31.780 that you

00:56:33.000 would make

00:56:33.640 a better leader

00:56:34.220 than the former president?

00:56:37.140 Well, first,

00:56:37.700 let me say

00:56:38.000 I'm humbled

00:56:38.400 by your kind words.

00:56:41.080 My respect for you

00:56:42.240 is boundless

00:56:42.820 and I'm grateful

00:56:44.020 for those words.

00:56:44.740 I'll share them

00:56:45.200 with my wife

00:56:45.840 when we break.

00:56:48.620 Well, first, look,

00:56:49.760 when I got the phone call

00:56:51.760 to join

00:56:52.200 the national ticket

00:56:53.720 or a group of people

00:56:54.900 being considered for it,

00:56:57.180 I didn't expect it.

00:56:59.700 I'd actually endorsed

00:57:00.540 another candidate

00:57:01.260 in the primary

00:57:02.060 in Indiana.

00:57:03.520 But Donald Trump

00:57:05.000 had won the nomination.

00:57:05.960 and for me,

00:57:08.640 the prospect

00:57:10.540 of Hillary Clinton

00:57:11.620 serving as president

00:57:13.780 for eight years

00:57:15.260 following

00:57:15.740 the liberal

00:57:18.500 and failed governance

00:57:19.880 of Barack Obama

00:57:21.300 for eight years

00:57:22.080 was an incredible threat

00:57:23.620 to the America

00:57:25.260 that I had grown up in.

00:57:26.400 I thought

00:57:27.300 if we put

00:57:28.220 16 years

00:57:29.480 of essentially

00:57:30.880 a socialist agenda

00:57:32.100 in effect

00:57:33.600 driving America

00:57:35.220 toward a secular

00:57:36.040 European-style

00:57:36.980 welfare state,

00:57:38.340 my children

00:57:39.440 and grandchildren

00:57:40.020 would not grow up

00:57:41.020 in the America

00:57:42.040 that I had grown up in.

00:57:43.220 And so,

00:57:43.800 for me,

00:57:44.320 when the phone call

00:57:45.020 came,

00:57:46.200 I had one of two

00:57:47.160 questions

00:57:47.700 that I said

00:57:48.600 I would need

00:57:49.360 to have answered.

00:57:50.100 Number one,

00:57:50.460 we need to know

00:57:51.020 them better.

00:57:51.720 We didn't know

00:57:52.380 either the president

00:57:54.640 or his family

00:57:55.520 at all.

00:57:56.040 And everything

00:57:56.480 the Pence's do,

00:57:57.400 we do as a family.

00:57:59.060 And secondly,

00:57:59.660 I said I'd want to know

00:58:00.420 what the job description was

00:58:01.720 because only one person

00:58:03.980 gets to write

00:58:04.500 that job description

00:58:05.320 every four years

00:58:06.180 for the vice president.

00:58:07.500 And so,

00:58:08.520 I mean,

00:58:09.720 my attitude was

00:58:10.860 if we felt

00:58:13.560 there was a rapport

00:58:14.480 that we could establish

00:58:15.340 with them as a family,

00:58:16.460 which we did

00:58:17.020 almost immediately

00:58:17.840 with them,

00:58:19.720 but if I felt

00:58:21.500 like a job description

00:58:22.500 would give me

00:58:23.020 the ability

00:58:23.500 to help the country,

00:58:25.440 first,

00:58:26.520 by defeating

00:58:27.200 Hillary Clinton

00:58:27.940 and secondly,

00:58:28.620 by advancing

00:58:29.180 a conservative agenda.

00:58:32.600 I was anxious

00:58:34.280 to do that.

00:58:35.400 And once he explained

00:58:36.620 to me that the role

00:58:37.560 of the vice president

00:58:38.280 in his mind

00:58:38.940 would be an active role,

00:58:40.520 it'd be active

00:58:41.080 in the legislative process,

00:58:42.600 active in even

00:58:44.140 interviewing appointments

00:58:45.520 to the Supreme Court,

00:58:46.820 active around the country,

00:58:48.840 promoting our policies,

00:58:49.960 active around the world,

00:58:51.340 representing America.

00:58:52.420 When the phone call came,

00:58:53.500 Jordan,

00:58:53.740 I said yes in a heartbeat.

00:58:55.340 And I will tell you,

00:58:55.860 I'm incredibly proud

00:58:56.640 of the record

00:58:57.340 of the Trump-Pence

00:58:58.860 administration.

00:58:59.940 I mean,

00:59:00.260 my old running mate

00:59:02.020 promised to govern

00:59:02.940 as a conservative,

00:59:03.760 and we did.

00:59:05.220 We cut taxes,

00:59:06.660 rollback regulation,

00:59:08.060 three justices

00:59:08.820 to the Supreme Court

00:59:09.860 that just gave America

00:59:10.960 a new beginning

00:59:12.200 for life.

00:59:13.240 We rebuilt our military,

00:59:14.640 created the first new branch

00:59:15.780 of our armed forces.

00:59:17.080 We secured

00:59:17.840 the southern border

00:59:18.700 of the United States

00:59:20.160 of America.

00:59:20.840 And as you've said

00:59:21.440 many times

00:59:21.980 in this conversation,

00:59:23.600 the world

00:59:24.160 was much more peaceful.

00:59:25.240 and ISIS

00:59:29.040 was destroyed

00:59:30.040 and the most

00:59:31.540 dangerous terrorist

00:59:32.500 in the world

00:59:32.980 was taken out.

00:59:34.060 It's all a record

00:59:34.620 I'm incredibly proud of.

00:59:36.960 In fact,

00:59:37.700 as I'll share again

00:59:38.540 here in North Carolina

00:59:39.600 today,

00:59:40.920 some people might wonder

00:59:41.820 why I'm running

00:59:42.380 against my former

00:59:43.300 running mate

00:59:43.840 in the wake

00:59:45.500 of how proud

00:59:46.060 I am of that record.

00:59:47.120 Some in this field

00:59:47.800 are already criticizing

00:59:48.760 our record.

00:59:49.480 It's their right

00:59:49.900 to do that.

00:59:52.020 But I'll battle

00:59:53.420 them on that too.

00:59:55.020 But for me,

00:59:55.520 it came down

00:59:56.020 to the promise

00:59:56.580 that I made

00:59:57.300 when I took

00:59:59.040 my oath of office

00:59:59.860 and the overall

01:00:01.820 direction of the party.

01:00:03.120 As I said

01:00:03.580 in my announcement speech,

01:00:05.940 when I raised

01:00:06.580 my right hand,

01:00:07.860 I swore to the

01:00:08.720 American people

01:00:09.360 and to Almighty God

01:00:10.280 that I would support

01:00:11.000 and defend

01:00:11.400 the Constitution

01:00:12.140 of the United States.

01:00:14.020 And on that

01:00:14.500 fateful day,

01:00:15.880 January 6,

01:00:17.940 President Trump

01:00:18.900 asked me to choose

01:00:21.800 him over the Constitution.

01:00:24.300 But I thought

01:00:25.260 my duty was clear

01:00:26.300 and still believe it was

01:00:27.560 that I was there

01:00:29.040 under the Constitution

01:00:29.740 to preside

01:00:30.480 over a joint session

01:00:31.480 of Congress,

01:00:32.040 to open and count

01:00:33.360 the votes

01:00:34.300 that had been certified

01:00:35.220 by the states,

01:00:36.120 reviewed by the courts,

01:00:37.540 and would be debated

01:00:38.980 in objections

01:00:39.620 in the Congress.

01:00:40.400 But our job

01:00:41.100 was to open

01:00:41.800 and count.

01:00:42.640 No more,

01:00:43.020 no less.

01:00:44.320 We did our duty

01:00:45.020 that day,

01:00:45.560 I'll always believe,

01:00:46.520 by God's grace,

01:00:47.340 to ensure

01:00:48.980 the peaceful

01:00:49.460 transfer of power.

01:00:50.540 But the fact

01:00:50.960 that the President

01:00:51.540 continues to say

01:00:53.660 that I had the right

01:00:54.300 to overturn

01:00:54.980 the election

01:00:56.780 animates me.

01:01:00.300 I think

01:01:00.840 no one should ever

01:01:02.640 serve as President

01:01:03.500 of the United States

01:01:04.400 who puts themselves

01:01:05.300 over the Constitution

01:01:06.620 of the United States.

01:01:07.480 It's the oath

01:01:08.000 we swear,

01:01:09.280 and I'm going to take

01:01:09.960 that case

01:01:10.420 to the American people.

01:01:11.720 But secondly,

01:01:12.300 it has to do,

01:01:13.180 my candidacy

01:01:13.960 is animated

01:01:14.580 by my belief

01:01:15.360 in the conservative agenda,

01:01:16.460 something that you've

01:01:17.860 articulated in new

01:01:19.180 and renewed

01:01:19.700 and fresh ways

01:01:20.700 for individuals

01:01:21.360 and for the country,

01:01:22.980 and I'll always be

01:01:23.620 grateful for that.

01:01:24.380 But it's an agenda

01:01:25.820 about American leadership

01:01:26.780 in the world.

01:01:28.000 I mean,

01:01:28.160 it's my old running mate

01:01:29.020 and others are backing away

01:01:30.220 from America's leadership.

01:01:32.240 I want to lean in.

01:01:34.100 I want to rebuild

01:01:35.120 our military.

01:01:35.980 I want to make sure

01:01:36.640 that we continue

01:01:37.940 to be the leader

01:01:38.600 of the free world.

01:01:40.000 When it comes

01:01:40.500 to fiscal responsibility,

01:01:43.520 Joe Biden's policy

01:01:44.540 is insolvency.

01:01:46.240 I mean,

01:01:46.460 we have a national debt

01:01:47.420 the size of our nation's economy,

01:01:49.720 and Joe Biden

01:01:50.300 won't even talk about

01:01:51.420 the entitlements

01:01:53.040 that represent

01:01:53.600 70% of the federal budget

01:01:55.340 and growing.

01:01:56.160 We are headed

01:01:56.680 to a debt crisis

01:01:57.640 the likes of which

01:01:58.380 the world has never seen,

01:02:01.020 and Joe Biden

01:02:01.900 refuses to talk about it,

01:02:03.260 but my old running mate

01:02:04.200 refuses to talk about it.

01:02:05.740 I mean,

01:02:05.960 Joe Biden

01:02:06.460 and Donald Trump

01:02:07.160 have the exact same policy

01:02:08.620 on entitlement reform,

01:02:10.040 and many Republicans

01:02:11.260 as well in this field

01:02:12.420 also shy away

01:02:13.420 from talking about it.

01:02:14.860 I'm going to talk about

01:02:15.800 how we deal

01:02:17.180 with the national debt,

01:02:18.100 how we improve

01:02:18.780 and reform these programs,

01:02:20.000 and lastly,

01:02:20.480 my commitment

01:02:20.960 to the sanctity of life.

01:02:23.700 I'll always be grateful

01:02:24.820 to have been part

01:02:25.500 of an administration

01:02:26.280 that appointed

01:02:27.460 three of the justices

01:02:28.740 that sent Roe versus Wade

01:02:30.580 to the ash heap of history

01:02:31.720 where it belongs,

01:02:33.360 but now in this new season,

01:02:35.400 this new era for life,

01:02:36.680 just at this moment

01:02:37.700 when we can work

01:02:39.460 to expand protections

01:02:40.940 for the unborn,

01:02:42.080 protections for women

01:02:43.000 in crisis pregnancies,

01:02:44.400 support for newborn.

01:02:46.300 Some in our party,

01:02:47.320 including my old running mate,

01:02:48.560 are shying away

01:02:49.540 from standing firm

01:02:51.680 out of concern

01:02:53.060 for its impact on politics.

01:02:55.720 I don't believe that.

01:02:57.400 I believe if we stand firm

01:02:59.500 with compassion

01:03:00.860 and principle,

01:03:02.520 the American people

01:03:03.600 will rally to our cause,

01:03:04.920 but even if they did not,

01:03:07.160 I think the cause of life

01:03:08.580 is the calling of our time,

01:03:09.920 the sanctity of life

01:03:11.200 being restored

01:03:12.640 to the center

01:03:13.220 of American law,

01:03:14.320 I think must remain

01:03:15.820 an objective

01:03:17.600 of the Republican Party.

01:03:19.500 And so for all

01:03:20.740 of those issues,

01:03:22.120 it's what brings me

01:03:23.820 to this fight,

01:03:24.720 but that was why

01:03:26.160 I joined the ticket

01:03:26.840 to begin with.

01:03:27.660 And no regrets,

01:03:28.760 no regrets.

01:03:29.360 I'm grateful

01:03:30.480 for what we did,

01:03:31.420 we're able to do

01:03:32.060 for the country.

01:03:33.580 I was sorry

01:03:34.980 it came to the end

01:03:36.060 that it came to,

01:03:37.880 but I'm absolutely convinced

01:03:40.120 if we'll keep our party

01:03:42.420 and our country

01:03:43.420 on course

01:03:44.700 of the same policies

01:03:45.820 that minted our movement

01:03:47.060 starting back

01:03:48.140 in the days

01:03:48.660 of Ronald Reagan

01:03:49.440 and going forward,

01:03:51.080 that we'll restore

01:03:53.480 this country,

01:03:54.360 we'll secure our nation,

01:03:56.660 America will be stronger

01:03:57.900 and more prosperous

01:03:58.680 than ever before.

01:04:00.140 So help us God.

01:04:01.660 All right, sir.

01:04:02.900 I swore to your staff

01:04:04.980 that I would ensure

01:04:06.440 that this podcast

01:04:07.600 lasted no longer

01:04:08.540 than its deemed time

01:04:09.580 and that was a really

01:04:10.640 good place to end,

01:04:11.520 I would say.

01:04:12.160 And so thank you very much

01:04:13.720 for taking the time

01:04:14.720 to talk with everyone

01:04:16.560 who's watching

01:04:17.180 and listening today

01:04:17.940 and with me.

01:04:18.600 It's a privilege

01:04:19.820 to be involved

01:04:20.820 in the election campaign

01:04:22.400 in the manner that I am

01:04:23.440 and I certainly appreciate

01:04:24.900 your time and attention

01:04:25.740 as I do appreciate

01:04:26.880 the time and attention

01:04:27.700 of everyone

01:04:28.160 who's watching and listening

01:04:29.220 and so perhaps, sir,

01:04:31.300 sometime in the future,

01:04:32.480 you've got a whole year

01:04:33.300 on the campaign trail,

01:04:34.300 we can sit down

01:04:35.000 and have a further discussion.

01:04:36.720 There were lots of

01:04:37.480 other Pandora's boxes

01:04:38.940 that we could have opened

01:04:39.860 but we covered a fair bit

01:04:41.020 of territory usefully today

01:04:42.380 and so once again,

01:04:43.960 I'd like to express

01:04:44.800 my appreciation

01:04:45.580 for your willingness

01:04:46.400 to sit and talk with me.

01:04:48.000 I'll look forward

01:04:48.600 to it, Jordan Peterson

01:04:49.580 and God bless you

01:04:51.140 for your matchless voice.

01:04:53.820 Ciao, everyone.

01:04:54.980 Yep.

01:04:55.740 Bye-bye, sir.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - June 19, 2023

368. Speaking Softly and Carrying a Big Stick ｜ Mike Pence

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