The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 376. Truth and Adventure as an Antidote to Suffering ｜ Douglas Murray

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00:00:57.420 Hello everyone watching and listening.

00:01:11.200 Today I'm speaking with author, columnist, and political commentator Douglas Murray, who's been on my podcast a number of times.

00:01:19.060 We talked about his latest book not so long ago, The War on the West.

00:01:22.660 We discuss how a misguided purpose leads to abject misery and hopelessness, the cowardice of experts who choose silence, experts and others, let's say, who choose silence in the face of malevolence, the psychology of fear, and the necessity of willful exposure to combat that fear.

00:01:44.100 So we went out for dinner last night to Royal 35, which was very good.

00:01:49.100 That's a steakhouse that looks like a classic mafioso place, as far as I'm concerned, but they make great steaks. 1.00

00:01:55.200 And one of the things we talked a little bit about was your burgeoning interest in purpose.

00:02:01.420 And so I'm curious about that.

00:02:03.040 So the first question I have, I guess, is why you think that's attracted your interest, that particular topic?

00:02:09.760 I think it's because I just increasingly notice, as I'm sure you do, that it's the question underneath almost all questions in our day.

00:02:18.540 A lot of the things that you and I spend a considerable amount of our time railing against are things we critique, criticize, find holes in, push back against.

00:02:30.820 But you're always confronted by the fact that you're dealing with somebody who believes that they find their sense of purpose from the thing that we find, you know, untruthful, irritating or worse.

00:02:44.280 And you see all of these versions in our day, I think, of misguided purpose, purpose used to the wrong ends, meaning found in places that really don't give much satisfaction, but give people the drive to get up in the morning.

00:03:06.380 And act sometimes well, often malevolently, more often than not, perhaps malevolently.

00:03:14.060 But it seems to me that this sort of meaning crisis is one that many of the people that you and I have problems with, should we say, are actually addressing.

00:03:25.320 I mean, in their own inept and sometimes malevolent way, they are sort of speaking to a depth.

00:03:31.420 Well, one of the things the left does very well, there's a developmental psychologist named Jean Piaget, who was a great psychologist.

00:03:40.000 And he called himself a genetic epistemologist, actually, because he was interested in knowledge structures and how they developed.

00:03:48.720 And so he really thought he was a practical philosopher.

00:03:50.820 But in any case, he noted that human children, as they develop, go through stages of development, each stage was in some ways a different, you could say, a different theory of being.

00:04:05.060 And that the last stage that he identified was the messianic stage.

00:04:09.760 And developmental psychologists haven't paid much attention to that because they tended to shy away from anything that smacked of, let's say, religious thinking.

00:04:17.300 Even though Piaget was motivated fundamentally by the desire to bridge the gap between science and religion, which, by the way, I think he did quite well, the messianic period is late adolescence.

00:04:29.260 And you might think about it anthropologically, I suppose, as associated with the need for individuals of that age to move away from their immediate local friendship group, which would have been the bridge from dependence on their parents, to identification with the broader culture.

00:04:49.560 And so what they're trying to find at that point is something like a sense of universal purpose, right?

00:04:57.500 And that touches on this issue of purpose, obviously, and meaning.

00:05:01.600 And you, in the way that you laid this out when we began this discussion, you implied a number of presuppositions of that there are malevolent purposes, that there are fractured purposes, that there are counterproductive purposes, that there is purpose.

00:05:24.400 I presume you would also agree that there are shallow purposes and deep purposes.

00:05:28.480 Absolutely.

00:05:29.820 I mean, like, there are shallow enjoyments and deep enjoyments.

00:05:33.820 One of the things that Burke says in his work on The Sublime is that, of course, there are things you immediately know to be enjoyable, and there are acquired pleasures.

00:05:43.780 And that's just on the level of pleasures.

00:05:45.380 I mean, he gives the example, I think, of cigar smoking or whiskey, I think, as an example of a pleasure you don't get straight away.

00:05:52.020 And so, yes, I mean, there are things that can drive people and give also an ephemeral sense of purpose.

00:06:00.960 But the issue of deeper purpose is one I just see as being very dangerously unaddressed in our day.

00:06:08.220 And I think it's – I referred to this recently in a speech in London saying if, for instance, the left approach you with the opportunity to spend your life rampagingly campaigning to provide, you know, cosmic social justice on this earth now.

00:06:29.860 Saving the planet.

00:06:30.760 Saving the planet.

00:06:33.980 Not burning to death tomorrow.

00:06:36.420 Various other things.

00:06:37.560 And also are driven by things like envy, resentment, very, very deep, deep human instincts, ineradical human instincts, that if you don't like what they're doing and what they're suggesting, you can't just answer on a technicality.

00:06:53.860 And the example I gave quite – or I gave in that speech in London was, you know, if you have people telling you you can get a burning sense of meaning in your life by being resentful, a conservative or somebody on the right cannot simply say, well, we've got a tax break we've discovered.

00:07:13.740 Right, right.

00:07:14.640 I mean, it might do something.

00:07:15.720 You can't simply say that resentment is wrong because the alternative isn't well fleshed out.

00:07:23.260 Well, the alternative, as Nietzsche says, is gratitude.

00:07:26.000 Well, right, right, right.

00:07:27.700 Which is doable, but you need to work at that more than you need to work at resentment.

00:07:34.200 Yeah, well, that – okay, so there's a bridge there between the idea of longer-term and acquired purposes and practice and work.

00:07:41.540 You said that you have to work at gratitude, right, and so that makes it a practice.

00:07:45.460 And I don't think that – I think that people generally presume that a sentiment or state of mind like gratitude is something that descends upon you rather than something that you acquire through effort.

00:07:57.320 And I think that that's a real mistake, right?

00:07:59.240 Absolutely.

00:07:59.580 I mean, you and I, I think, both probably have the same attitude on this, which is that we know that, you know, we're very lucky today to be sitting in a city which has its problems but is very successful.

00:08:12.000 You've got some chance of being mugged in the street, but not all that much.

00:08:16.080 If you do, you can get justice.

00:08:18.800 There is a justice system.

00:08:20.900 There are people who hear you if you have suffered an injustice.

00:08:24.460 We know that all of these things are actually worldwide at the moment and also historically very, very unusual.

00:08:31.080 So you and I might have quite a developed sense of gratitude because we might remind ourselves of these things on a daily basis.

00:08:37.340 I might remind myself I walked past St. Patrick's Cathedral this morning.

00:08:41.260 I think, what a building.

00:08:43.020 Now, you can take that for granted or you cannot, and you can think even for a second about the amount of labor and devotion that went into that.

00:08:50.520 But that is something that some people need to be reminded of.

00:08:54.060 My suspicion is that the societies we live in now in the developed West, you do have to work at it.

00:08:59.020 And the reason why is that there's this massive context collapse whereby we assume that the state that we are in is the natural state of mankind.

00:09:07.860 And somebody I know who's…

00:09:09.980 Well, and there's also conservatives and the progressive types tend to differ on what constitutes the natural state of mankind.

00:09:16.000 Absolutely.

00:09:16.700 Because the conservatives, and I would say the wiser people, tend to be more influenced, you might say, by Thomas Hobbes than by Jean-Jacques Rousseau.

00:09:25.400 And we assume that, let's say, that the state of brutish natural life is brutish and short and miserable rather than some pre-industrial paradisal state where everyone lived in harmony with nature.

00:09:40.780 Well, I gave the example in my last book, In the War on the West, of this rather delicious but savage lesson that a group of French sailors learned after Rousseau.

00:09:50.900 They're big Rousseauians.

00:09:52.360 They land on an island in New Zealand and assume that the natives live in a state of nature.

00:09:59.080 And I think they're all killed in Eton.

00:10:02.040 The ones who survive the expedition and end up with a very low opinion of Rousseau.

00:10:07.000 Right.

00:10:08.120 They learned it the hard way.

00:10:11.220 That's the same Rousseau that let all his children rot in orphanages, right?

00:10:14.900 Yes.

00:10:15.240 Yeah.

00:10:15.620 But anyhow, I think that this issue of are you talking at comparable depths remains important.

00:10:25.000 Gratitude is obviously a part of this.

00:10:27.060 Gratitude becomes easier to feel if you know what the alternatives are.

00:10:32.040 One of the things I always say about it.

00:10:33.000 Resentment, that's a good opposite, I think.

00:10:35.360 Yeah.

00:10:35.600 And I know a school teacher who says that the single biggest thing that will change the behavior of a child is if they are of an immigrant background and go back in a school holiday to their country of origin.

00:10:48.660 Right.

00:10:48.980 You know, if you meet your second, third cousins in Pakistan or Algeria or Sudan, you have a different view of Canada, Britain or America.

00:10:59.520 Yeah.

00:10:59.680 Well, that also touches on part of the reason that you laid out for ingratitude the way you conceptualized it to begin with, say, talking about walking down the streets of New York, being unable to compare that with anything outside of New York in this present.

00:11:16.000 So, ignorance is actually one problem, is that if you don't know anything about history.

00:11:21.060 And there's also, I suppose, as well as ignorance, there's willful blindness and the unwillingness to put in the effort that it would require to be grateful.

00:11:32.540 Absolutely.

00:11:33.020 So, you know, I've been considering the book of Job in some depth recently, and it's a very interesting book, and it pertains to purpose, I would say.

00:11:42.000 So, by the time the book of Job is written and eventually introduced into the biblical corpus, there's a real transformation in the conceptualization of God.

00:11:54.820 And there's a key figure in that transformation, which is extraordinarily interesting.

00:11:59.940 The figure is Elijah.

00:12:00.960 So, when Christ is transfigured on the mount, two prophets appear with him.

00:12:07.520 One is Moses, and that's obvious why that is.

00:12:10.180 But the other is Elijah.

00:12:11.540 And Elijah, compared to Moses, is a relatively minor figure.

00:12:15.060 And so, there's some chapter or some verses devoted to his story, but not a lot.

00:12:20.420 But here's the key psychological significance, let's say, of Elijah.

00:12:26.120 So, Elijah set himself up against Jezebel, who was a queen, at that time a foreign queen of Israel, who had introduced the worship of Baal into the Israeli culture. 0.82

00:12:40.680 And Baal was a nature god.

00:12:42.920 And so, Elijah has a famous dispute with the prophets of Baal and ends up with Yahweh's help defeating them. 0.62

00:12:50.220 And so, he establishes supremacy over Baal. 0.83

00:12:54.040 This is a golden calf.

00:12:55.360 Yeah, he builds an altar.

00:12:58.980 He builds an altar and challenges the prophets of Baal to have the sacrifice destroyed by their god. 0.84

00:13:06.960 And that doesn't happen.

00:13:07.920 And then he calls on Yahweh, who sends down fire to destroy not only the sacrifice, but the altar itself. 0.60

00:13:13.860 And then he has the prophets of Baal put to death, which doesn't exactly thrill Jezebel. 0.53

00:13:19.280 And then he runs away because she's after him.

00:13:22.200 And this is where the radical transformation occurs.

00:13:24.580 So, he's hiding out in a cave, and he feels he's the only one left who's still an acolyte of Yahweh in the entire Israelite polity. 0.88

00:13:36.440 And a thunderstorm happens, a very, very violent thunderstorm, followed by a very violent earthquake.

00:13:43.620 And Elijah realizes that God is not in the earthquake and not in the thunder, that he is instead the still small voice.

00:13:54.500 That's where that phrase comes from.

00:13:56.300 So, it's the first marked internalization of the notion of the deity, is that whatever the highest deity is, is something that you can commune with internally, that is roughly equivalent, let's say, to the voice of conscience.

00:14:14.660 And so, that's Elijah.

00:14:16.280 Now, what happens in Job is so interesting, because in the story of Job, God has a bet with Satan.

00:14:23.060 It's a very nasty story, right?

00:14:24.520 It's the most brutal story.

00:14:25.480 It's a brutal story.

00:14:27.120 It's a brutal story.

00:14:28.220 It makes you wonder why it wasn't edited out of the biblical corpus.

00:14:31.600 And the consolation at the end isn't much of a consolation.

00:14:33.560 Well, exactly, exactly.

00:14:35.200 And so, Job is a good man, and God thinks so, and so does Satan.

00:14:41.040 And Satan is invited by God to have a few words with him and says, I bet you that I can destroy the faith of your good man, Job.

00:14:52.080 And God says, yeah, I don't think so.

00:14:53.760 Have at her, buddy. 1.00

00:14:55.020 And so, Job loses everything, and in the most painful possible manner.

00:14:59.920 And what he does, as far as I can tell, is that he uses that internal guide of conscience, which was now, say, allied with the voice of God, in some sense, against these terrible external forces that are conspiring to bring him down, right?

00:15:15.820 Because his wife dies.

00:15:17.200 The children will die. 0.69

00:15:18.260 Children die.

00:15:19.060 The cattle die.

00:15:19.880 He's covered in boils.

00:15:20.960 Yeah, and his friends are making fun of him because they think he must have done something to deserve this, right?

00:15:25.560 So, he's, like, taken to the bottom of reality.

00:15:28.380 But he refuses to lose faith.

00:15:30.920 Now, you might say, and this is where the story, I think, transcends something like mere rationality, but we can argue about that.

00:15:39.100 You might say that the logical consequence, the logical conclusion from that misadventure is that Job has every rational reason to shake his fist at the sky and curse God, right?

00:15:52.280 But he doesn't.

00:15:53.820 He maintains faith in the goodness of being despite the fact that he's suffering dreadfully.

00:15:59.360 And despite what the voice on the whirlwind says to him, which is the least comforting thing that the voice could say.

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00:17:42.680 Which is, who are you to question the Lord thy God?

00:17:49.020 Right, right.

00:17:49.720 But this is, you see, this is such an interesting issue here because I've watched people in the deep throes of misery.

00:17:57.020 And I can tell you that one of the things that will make misery hell is ingratitude.

00:18:01.220 And so part of the story of Job seems to me to be an injunction, and that is that no matter what happens to you, and that means in some sense, no matter the facts at hand, that you are called upon never to lose faith in the essential goodness of being.

00:18:16.840 Right, to conduct yourself as if, what would you say, the cosmos itself is well-structured, despite the evidence that happens to be being presented to you within the confines of your life.

00:18:28.720 And I think that's the same as, I think that's the same as the practice of gratitude.

00:18:33.360 Thank you, I'd agree, by the way, bringing that to a rather, maybe not obvious segue, but we were also talking last night about the fact, I saw you discussed recently the question of euthanasia and the way in which Canadian authorities have been doing this.

00:18:50.320 I mentioned to you that some, some years ago, I went to speak with euthanasia doctors and the patients in Belgium and the Netherlands.

00:18:56.740 They're very advanced on this.

00:18:58.460 I wrote several long essays on the subject.

00:19:01.160 It's a horrible subject to dwell on, of course.

00:19:02.840 Yeah.

00:19:03.360 But actually, one of the reasons why I've always remained exceptionally suspicious of legalized dying, as I call it, I have, as we all have, friends who you think at the end, I wish that suffering could just stop.

00:19:19.440 Yeah.

00:19:19.680 So I recognize that that, do you want it to be in the hands of the government or any more in the hands of a doctor than it already is, let alone in the hands of the family or anything?

00:19:28.920 I'm not sure about that.

00:19:29.960 That allow the crossover of physical suffering to be equated with mental suffering and you start putting down depressed youths as they are on the continent. 0.70

00:19:41.640 Or, for example, I have been giving recently.

00:19:44.620 And you're moving towards that in Canada.

00:19:46.080 Absolutely.

00:19:46.720 I mean, there's this poor girl who survived the Brussels airport attack.

00:19:50.160 She saw most of her classmates blown up.

00:19:52.400 Her life didn't really recover.

00:19:53.580 And she was put down with euthanasia by the Belgian state last year at the age of, I think, 24.

00:19:58.760 Now, apart from the insanity of a society that will not, out of principle, execute the perpetrator of an attack, but will kill a victim, apart from the insanity of that, and all we know about the genuinely slippery slope in this area,

00:20:16.760 one of the instincts I realized I had that I just couldn't let go of was that there was something fundamental about us as human beings that means that it is deeply ungrateful to what we have to give it up even a minute earlier than you have to.

00:20:33.260 And that, you know, in the end, I quite often revert to literature, but I think it's Gloucester who says in King Lear, you know, man must endure his going hence, even as his coming hither.

00:20:46.400 And that actually endurance, endurance of birth, endurance of death is part of the cycle.

00:20:53.220 But there is something, but the resentment you feel, for instance, when somebody commits suicide, and people around somebody who commits suicide very often do feel resentment as well as deep guilt, is partly you've broken the pact at a fundamental level.

00:21:08.900 You've made all of us see something we didn't wish to see or conceive something we didn't need to see.

00:21:16.860 And left us powerless.

00:21:18.080 And left us powerless.

00:21:20.360 And anyhow, I mean, it's a sort of effect.

00:21:22.280 That's all independent of whether or not you want to put the power to euthanize people in the hands of the state.

00:21:26.860 And the answer to that is most definitely, 100% not.

00:21:30.760 Well, I mean, absolutely.

00:21:31.600 If the Canadian government can't work out how to organize the banking system or...

00:21:40.140 Or passport delivery.

00:21:41.360 Or passport delivery or some of the roads, I don't want to give them life and death.

00:21:47.640 Particularly not over mentally ill people.

00:21:49.660 So when you see people suffering, I mean, I saw this in my clinical practice a lot, is that if you, and I saw this with my daughter, you know, we talked to her too about this one because she was very, very ill as a child.

00:22:04.320 And we did everything we could to stop her from being bitter.

00:22:08.140 And the reason for that, and this is an interesting, it forces an interesting consideration of the relationship between facts and values.

00:22:17.720 So she had 40 deteriorating joints and each of them were painful.

00:22:21.680 And that's a lot of joints and that's a lot of pain.

00:22:24.260 And that was only a few of the things that were wrong with her.

00:22:27.260 And, but, had she become resentful and bitter, then she would have had all those problems, plus she would have been resentful and bitter.

00:22:37.240 And as far as I can tell, the way you turn tragedy into hell is by becoming resentful and bitter.

00:22:43.340 Now, here's a fact value problem.

00:22:47.720 So you tell me what you think about this.

00:22:49.240 So I, she could have said to me, you know, dad, given the facts at hand, the logical conclusion to derive, so that's an induction, let's say, the logical conclusion to derive is that, you know, life is terrible and unjust and it would be irrational of me not to be bitter.

00:23:06.480 And, you know, I think, and this is the conundrum that you see in Job too, is that, you know, when you set up a story so that someone loses everything, you set up the story so that they have lost everything.

00:23:19.060 And the conclusion to derive from the loss of everything, the logical conclusion seems to me almost pro forma, given that you've lost everything, is that you have every right to shake your fist at the sky.

00:23:29.800 Yes, but the oddity of it, and the oddity is, you know, about resentful people or bitter people.

00:23:36.480 Is that, and again, it's a point I've made a lot since the War in the West came out, is we are, I think we probably all have the same experience, everyone watching and you and I, which is we've probably all come across very bitter and resentful people in our lives who seem to have quite a good lot.

00:23:53.500 I mean, for instance, who are financially secure.

00:23:56.220 Yeah.

00:23:57.480 I suspect we've also come across people who seem to have, who have nothing.

00:24:01.500 Yeah.

00:24:01.840 Materially or otherwise.

00:24:02.700 Yeah.

00:24:03.100 Who live lives of gratitude and great grace.

00:24:05.420 Well, those are the people that really strike you.

00:24:08.160 Those are the people that really strike you when you meet them.

00:24:10.240 Absolutely.

00:24:10.580 That's for sure.

00:24:10.920 But one of the reasons I'm interested in this is because it seems fascinating to me that you can have an attitude which every socioeconomic thing doesn't actually matter.

00:24:26.100 Yeah.

00:24:26.260 You know, if you're a resentful person and you're given a million dollars tomorrow, you will be a resentful person the day after or the week after as well.

00:24:35.640 Right.

00:24:35.980 This isn't going to make any difference.

00:24:37.460 Right.

00:24:37.680 Well, so does that imply, see, I'm trying to wrestle with the distinction, let's say, between faith and reason, let's say.

00:24:47.880 And so, like, it seems to me, first of all, I don't think faith is the willingness to believe in superstitious nonsense for which there's no evidence.

00:24:56.220 Which is the definition that is mainly written through the last few decades.

00:25:00.900 Yes, exactly.

00:25:01.920 But I think faith is a decision to act in courage and trust.

00:25:07.240 And I think it's a decision to make that a practice.

00:25:10.280 And I think in some ways it's a decision to make that a practice, goddammit, regardless of the evidence.

00:25:16.220 So, you know, I have a friend who was brutally tortured in a Canadian residential school when he was a kid.

00:25:24.100 And you can't listen to what happened to him without it, like, tearing.

00:25:27.960 You can't listen to it.

00:25:29.460 It's unbelievably brutal and awful.

00:25:32.000 You know, and he was devastated by that and was on the street for a good while drinking and doing drugs and, like, tearing himself into pieces.

00:25:41.100 And he had great-grandparents who really loved him, and he was an inheritor of his cultural tradition, a genuine inheritor.

00:25:49.140 And so he made a decision that he wasn't going to live a bitter and resentful life, that he certainly wasn't going to pay that catastrophe forward with his children.

00:25:59.980 He learned to play.

00:26:01.580 He learned to look at himself in the mirror again.

00:26:04.200 You know, and he's conducted himself as a good man for decades now.

00:26:08.160 And that's—you already made the case, you know, that you see people who have everything in some real sense and who are bitter and resentful nonetheless.

00:26:17.820 And then you see people who have nothing who aren't.

00:26:20.220 And so you can take the same set of facts or even an opposing set of facts and derive different conclusions.

00:26:25.980 And this points at the fact-value problem, right, is that the facts don't speak for themselves in some deterministic manner.

00:26:33.800 And it seems to me that there has to be something approximating, something we've always defined as a leap of faith in the positive direction.

00:26:42.240 And that's tied to—it's tied in a strange way to something you said earlier, which is that, you know, there are shallow pleasures and meanings and deep pleasures and meanings.

00:26:53.500 Yes, and I'd add one other thing to that, which is—and the faith that the recognition of the depth is telling you something.

00:27:08.640 Yeah, well, so I've been trying to puzzle through what depth means, technically, let's say.

00:27:13.860 Okay, so in the scientific literature, your work is more—is deeper, that's one way of thinking about it, the more other people cite it.

00:27:29.520 So it's a dependency network, right?

00:27:31.640 So here's a definition of depth.

00:27:35.720 More ideas are dependent on a deep idea than ideas—than the number of ideas that are dependent on a shallow idea.

00:27:43.860 Absolutely.

00:27:44.240 So it's like criticality, right?

00:27:45.600 So you can imagine a web of presumptions with some presumptions at the fundament.

00:27:50.760 Okay, so I think that religious axioms are the deepest fundaments.

00:27:57.880 And I think that—I think we could say that by definition.

00:28:00.740 And here's part of the reason—

00:28:02.360 At the very least, they speak to the deepest fundaments.

00:28:04.580 Well, but I think that's part of—and this is where it gets complex again—that's part of the evidentiary structure.

00:28:10.520 You know, if you're—you know, you have a profound aesthetic sense, and so some things move you deeply.

00:28:15.780 And in principle, those are profound things.

00:28:19.020 The reason they move you deeply is because they shift large sections of your perceptual and conceptual structure simultaneously,

00:28:27.480 rather than the shallow things, which are evanescent and irrelevant.

00:28:31.980 And so—and I think as well that we do, in fact, feel movement in the depths.

00:28:38.120 Oh, yes.

00:28:39.660 I mean, you—of course, you know it when you feel it.

00:28:42.720 Um, and that's why music as an art form is so extraordinary, because it—it speaks to a depth that speech can't do.

00:28:51.620 Right.

00:28:52.140 Or it speaks at a register that speech can't do.

00:28:54.480 If you say, why did you find this particular piece so moving?

00:28:57.460 It's often extremely hard—even harder if you're a musicologist—to explain why.

00:29:02.240 There are certain ways you can explain why, um, certain things to do with harmony, tonality, um, a phrase of music returning to its natural home.

00:29:17.480 Yeah, yeah.

00:29:17.840 I mean, that's a very—almost all things that move people are the resolution.

00:29:21.780 Yeah.

00:29:22.040 Um, however long delayed it is, in fact, the longer delayed it is, the better the resolution, the greater the satisfaction in it.

00:29:29.360 But it's not just that.

00:29:30.700 It's that sense that this is speaking to us in a register that we understand, um, and we see, but we can't quite reach.

00:29:39.460 But it speaks—it speaks to my—to my mind, music is the closest thing you have to religion.

00:29:45.280 Not because I want to make a religion of it.

00:29:47.720 Various people tried that, including Wagner.

00:29:49.420 But, um, but rather that it's—it's the language of religion and sound.

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00:30:59.220 Yeah, well, and I would say that's an embodied phenomenon rather than a conceptual phenomenon.

00:31:08.460 See, I think one of the problems that we have in the West in our conceptualization of meaning is that we're so obsessed with the semantic and the descriptive that we presume that meaning itself is secondarily derived from the semantic and descriptive.

00:31:22.620 I mean, the postmodernists make this case when they say that everything is encapsulated, say, in language.

00:31:27.580 And it's simply not the case.

00:31:28.160 Well, that's just a game.

00:31:29.300 I mean, that's a game they've been playing since the last war.

00:31:33.220 And my explanation of it, I gave a few books ago, my explanation for that is that it was very important after 1945 to keep philosophy behind police crime cord and tape.

00:31:44.980 So, what do you do in the philosophy departments?

00:31:48.940 You play language games.

00:31:51.580 You talk about hermeneutics.

00:31:52.760 So, why was it important to do that?

00:31:55.280 Oh, it's absolutely crucial because nobody knew how it happened.

00:31:59.360 And they feared that this was one of the components.

00:32:01.800 And we're still working that out.

00:32:03.720 I mean, we're still working that out.

00:32:05.680 That's why there are certain, you know, as you know, if you speak to somebody who teaches philosophy at any university,

00:32:11.940 there are several philosophers with enormous regularity that always appear as the philosophers that students want to study.

00:32:20.180 Like, Nietzsche outranks most people, like, 30 to 1.

00:32:25.860 If you're in political philosophy, people love Machiavelli.

00:32:31.740 Some might go for Heidegger or something like that.

00:32:33.860 My point is that there are known to be dangerous thinkers.

00:32:37.640 Well, and Heidegger is a good example of that.

00:32:39.620 Heidegger is a good example.

00:32:40.400 Although the actual texts give you really very little compared to what you could take from Nietzsche,

00:32:47.120 if you hate Nietzsche badly.

00:32:48.500 Yeah.

00:32:49.200 Or Machiavelli.

00:32:50.860 But it's very interesting to me that there is this awareness that philosophy-like culture, actually, in general,

00:33:02.300 which, again, you can see in the visual arts and others, in the latter half of the 20th century,

00:33:08.980 become about not very important things.

00:33:12.320 And it's because there has just been this fundamental whack at the belief that, for instance, philosophy can make you good,

00:33:23.040 that art or culture makes you good.

00:33:26.120 In fact, it's just had the biggest blow and, you know, the answer in the late 20th century to,

00:33:31.380 how did the most civilized societies on earth end up doing the worst thing?

00:33:36.280 One answer is maybe the civilization was the problem.

00:33:39.440 And a lot of people took that idea away or haven't had the discipline to...

00:33:46.080 Just made the evil more efficient.

00:33:47.940 Absolutely.

00:33:48.700 I mean, didn't have the discipline to disentangle accurately what could have happened and what did happen and what didn't.

00:33:56.420 But I think a lot, I think I've always been sure that the games that philosophy plays in our day are games of deliberate distraction

00:34:04.980 because people aren't sure they can cope with the questions that they should be asking.

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00:35:18.660 And that's a shame that...

00:35:21.620 Well, it is very difficult...

00:35:22.620 Well, you know, it is very difficult to cope with that.

00:35:25.920 I mean, I spent my whole life, I would say, probably since I was about 13, really,

00:35:32.040 trying to solve the Auschwitz puzzle.

00:35:34.820 You know, the Auschwitz puzzle is, how could you enjoy life as an Auschwitz guard?

00:35:39.240 And for me, that was an attempt to understand what happened in Nazi Germany at the level

00:35:44.980 of the personal.

00:35:45.880 It's like, well, what sort of person did you have to be like in order to do the terrible

00:35:49.880 things that were done? 0.99

00:35:51.100 And the answer is, well, now and then you were a psychopath. 0.68

00:35:57.000 But otherwise, everyone was like you and me. 0.87

00:35:59.580 Yeah, you were like you and me.

00:36:00.940 Right.

00:36:01.460 Which means that we're not the creatures that we think we are.

00:36:04.200 No.

00:36:04.340 Right.

00:36:04.820 And that's a very terrifying...

00:36:06.500 So tell me what you think about this.

00:36:08.420 So I've been spending a lot of time walking through the biblical stories recently because

00:36:14.540 I'm writing a new book, which is called We Who Wrestle With God, and it should be out

00:36:17.940 in February.

00:36:18.480 And I've thought a lot about the crucifixion story.

00:36:23.520 And so one of the things you can say about the crucifixion story, and Jung said this,

00:36:30.540 was that it was an archetypal tragedy, and he had a technical reason for that.

00:36:37.440 And the technical reason for that was that it's kind of like an AI idea, like a large language

00:36:42.540 model idea.

00:36:43.400 Imagine you took the corpus of all tragedies, and then you extracted out from that a meta 1.00

00:36:49.420 tragedy, which would be like the essence of tragedy itself.

00:36:52.960 Tragedy of all tragedies.

00:36:54.460 Okay.

00:36:54.800 And so the essence of tragedy is something like the most unjust possible thing happens

00:37:00.320 to the least possible...

00:37:01.200 To the most virtuous person.

00:37:02.480 Exactly.

00:37:03.020 Exactly.

00:37:03.440 Okay.

00:37:03.680 So that's pretty clear, right?

00:37:04.720 It's pretty clear that that is the passion story in essence, right?

00:37:07.700 And there's decorations on it, like you're betrayed by your best friend.

00:37:11.260 And not only are you a good person, but even the people who put you to death know it.

00:37:15.860 And your mother has to see it.

00:37:17.260 Yes, exactly.

00:37:18.160 Your mother has to see it.

00:37:19.080 So like all the details are in there.

00:37:20.760 But, you know, what's very interesting about that story is that it actually doesn't end

00:37:24.600 there, right?

00:37:25.960 Because there's a mythological corpus that's arisen around the crucifixion story per se,

00:37:33.580 that after Christ was crucified, he had to descend into hell and harrow it.

00:37:38.060 And so, and the way I read that psychologically is that you are called upon, if you want to

00:37:44.760 get to the very bottom of things, not only to face the ultimate tragedy of existence,

00:37:50.960 right?

00:37:51.120 To face that full on, but that that's not enough.

00:37:54.000 That you actually have to face the problem of hellish malevolence itself.

00:37:57.800 And that that actually, that's a worse problem than death.

00:38:00.860 And that, and I think maybe the reason that philosophy degenerated into triviality, following

00:38:07.700 up on your logic, was that it was a lot easier to avoid the problem than to take on both of

00:38:13.260 those burdens.

00:38:14.080 Because I don't think you can understand Nazism. 0.60

00:38:16.460 How can you understand Nazism without journeying to the heart of darkness, let's say? 0.92

00:38:20.720 And by the way, even if you journey there, you may learn nothing.

00:38:24.520 I mean, that's, that's, as you know, is the worst possible.

00:38:28.100 I mean, we hear, we, in our age, you hear people all the time saying things like the

00:38:32.420 lessons of the Holocaust. 0.75

00:38:34.000 Yeah.

00:38:34.300 So what are you talking about?

00:38:35.400 Which lessons?

00:38:36.000 And generally, it generally devolves into kind of banality of like, be nice to people.

00:38:40.520 Like, don't, don't mass murder people.

00:38:42.660 Sure.

00:38:43.000 Okay.

00:38:43.620 Right.

00:38:44.060 Beyond that.

00:38:44.960 Right.

00:38:45.740 The devil's in the details, unfortunately.

00:38:47.500 The devil's in the details on this.

00:38:48.500 In fact, by the way, it's very hard to say anything new about Auschwitz.

00:38:54.500 And you sort of feel everything has been said that could be said in a way.

00:39:00.320 And at the same time, we know nothing about it.

00:39:02.640 But I was very struck.

00:39:03.720 Martin Amos, who died recently, wrote a novel in the 90s.

00:39:06.540 It was very, very controversial at the time called Time's Arrow.

00:39:10.660 Everything goes backwards.

00:39:12.360 The whole plot of the novel goes, time is reversed.

00:39:15.420 So if somebody is sick, they go to a pile of sick and inhale it and then walk happily

00:39:24.000 around their day.

00:39:24.760 So anyhow, it's a device that works well at times as an abusive parent.

00:39:32.200 The child is crying.

00:39:34.940 The parent smacks the child and he stops crying.

00:39:38.580 It's a device that makes you able to look at things in an interesting way.

00:39:43.480 But he was much criticized for Damus in the 90s because he does the Holocaust. 0.91

00:39:49.140 He addresses the Holocaust in the book.

00:39:51.780 And everyone said, oh, you're using it as a literary device.

00:39:54.740 I actually think by doing what he did, he actually showed one of the very few new insights

00:40:00.300 I've ever seen about the Holocaust, which is that the people whose job it is to take 1.00

00:40:04.440 the bodies out of the ovens, would give birth to these people from the ovens. 0.99

00:40:11.220 Late in the novel, one of them confides to one of his colleagues that he's getting nervous

00:40:16.560 because the people that they're bringing out of the ovens now don't seem right.

00:40:22.640 They're more and more disabled. 1.00

00:40:24.960 They're more and more ill.

00:40:26.300 Is it worth even taking them out of the ovens?

00:40:31.120 So, strangely enough, by doing it in reverse, you get an idea of how it started.

00:40:37.800 Right.

00:40:38.460 You get an idea of how it started.

00:40:40.520 Yeah.

00:40:40.920 Well, the thing is, terrible things start one thing at a time.

00:40:44.760 And in this case, again, by a desire on behalf of some people to alleviate suffering or to claim to alleviate suffering,

00:40:59.340 to view some lives as less valued than others, perhaps hardly worth living.

00:41:05.580 It goes back to what we were saying about Canada today.

00:41:08.300 I urge people to think of it this way around.

00:41:12.420 Because if you think about it this way around, it's much easier to see how you start.

00:41:18.460 But the other thing...

00:41:20.300 Well, that is how things started in Nazi Germany too, right?

00:41:23.440 Is that because the progression towards the death camps was a progression through euthanasia.

00:41:29.060 And I've looked at a fair number of the propaganda films from the mid-30s,

00:41:33.380 where the Nazis were starting to clean up the asylums. 0.55

00:41:37.800 Yes, that's right.

00:41:38.420 Like, I've been in back ward asylums. 1.00

00:41:41.800 When I worked at the Douglas Hospital in the 1980s, there were still people there who had been on the wards,

00:41:49.120 who hadn't been deinstitutionalized, who had been on the wards for like four decades.

00:41:52.760 And they would kind of lurk in the corridors that were underground at the Douglas Hospital,

00:41:58.300 because it was like a university campus that was connected by underground passageways.

00:42:04.240 And it was like Dante's Inferno down there.

00:42:06.700 I mean, and you could easily go there and make the case that, you know,

00:42:12.220 oh my God, is a life of being on a back ward in a psychiatric hospital, you know,

00:42:17.360 wrapped up in a straitjacket for three decades worth living.

00:42:22.660 And, well, that brings that whole terrible conundrum up in front of you.

00:42:30.520 And there's no simple answer you can jump to there.

00:42:37.360 But one of the answers, the answer that that is something that should therefore be handed to the state to deal with in some efficient manner,

00:42:45.400 that's definitely not a good...

00:42:46.940 But the idea that it's a question that the individual should wrestle with is naturally the case.

00:42:52.700 I mean, that this is something that people should think about and will always think about as long as people think,

00:42:58.360 it seems to me very obvious.

00:43:01.420 I've always been struck by one of Elie Wiesel's works, who was, of course, in Auschwitz.

00:43:08.520 I don't know if you know it, The Trial of God.

00:43:10.580 Did you ever read that one?

00:43:12.040 No.

00:43:12.940 It's worth reading.

00:43:14.340 And there's a version of it he replays in another of his books, I think, of the Gates of the Forest.

00:43:21.000 Anyhow, it was something that I think Wiesel saw in Auschwitz.

00:43:24.020 But there was a night where in the camp, they have some rabbis decide that they will put God on trial.

00:43:33.000 And Wiesel describes it in extraordinary detail, and it's riveting, the silence in the room.

00:43:40.860 And eventually, the case for the prosecution, the case for the defense,

00:43:46.580 were given by very, very learned rabbis from Poland.

00:43:49.640 And nobody could know more than these men routinely knew, which is a reminder of what was lost.

00:43:57.600 But in the end, they find God guilty.

00:44:02.460 See, the Jews never did that in the Old Testament.

00:44:04.620 Well, no, but then something very important happens.

00:44:06.820 Oh, okay, okay.

00:44:07.820 Which is that they find God guilty, and there's a silence in the heart.

00:44:12.340 But when they realize what they've done, and then somebody says, one of the rabbis says,

00:44:17.660 okay, it's Friday night, we need to go and do our prayers.

00:44:21.080 And they do.

00:44:24.120 That's kind of reminiscent of what happens in the Grand Inquisitor.

00:44:29.160 Yes, exactly.

00:44:30.020 When the Inquisitor leaves the door open for Christ, right?

00:44:33.280 Even though he's doomed him to, hypothetically, to death because he's no longer necessary.

00:44:37.760 Well, you know, in the story of Cain and Abel, Cain puts God on trial because Cain is making these sacrifices, which are second rate.

00:44:48.820 Abel's sacrifices are lauded in the stories, but Cain's aren't.

00:44:52.320 And there's an intimation that they're not of the highest quality.

00:44:55.700 Now, Abel offers up animal material to God and Cain vegetative material, and that plays into it as well.

00:45:03.980 But Cain calls out God and says, essentially, something like, you know, I'm breaking myself in half here, working on my life, and nothing's going my way.

00:45:17.960 And your favored son, Abel, for reasons that I can't really understand, is thriving on all fronts.

00:45:25.340 What the hell is the problem with the cosmos you created?

00:45:28.600 And God says, and I got this from reading multiple translations, God says, first of all, he says, if you do well, will you not be rewarded?

00:45:39.420 That's the first rejoinder.

00:45:41.100 And the second rejoinder is something like, sin crouches at your door like a sexually aroused predatory animal, and you've invited it in to have its way with you.

00:45:52.000 And so, and I've read a lot of the diary material of serial killers and sexual slayers and that sort of people, and you can rest absolutely assured that they invited that spirit of resentment in and have been creatively interacting with it.

00:46:07.900 So, I was thinking, too, you know, this issue of suffering and death, you know, imagine that you have a parent.

00:46:15.380 Let's particularize it, because maybe the question isn't, what should the state do about exceptional suffering?

00:46:23.460 Maybe that's the wrong level of analysis.

00:46:25.480 Maybe the right level of analysis is something like, what would you do if your father was dying a terrible death?

00:46:30.980 And I would say, what you should have done was live the life that you should have lived, so that at that point of unbelievable complexity, you'd be wise enough to make the appropriate decision and to see your way through.

00:46:42.960 But that there would be no way that you could generalize that decision.

00:46:46.800 It would only have to be made in a particularized manner.

00:46:49.380 Absolutely.

00:46:49.660 And you wouldn't have the wisdom to make that decision properly if you hadn't conducted your life with exceptional care.

00:46:56.580 Nobody can make it for you, that's for sure.

00:46:59.120 No function.

00:46:59.720 So, one of the things that frightened me, again, as a clinician, was that, especially when I saw people deceiving themselves, I thought, well, why not deceive yourself if you can escape from responsibility and pain and anxiety?

00:47:14.520 And if you can gain things through minimal effort, why not deceive yourself and other people?

00:47:20.280 And one reason to not deceive yourself is that there will come a time when you're called upon to make a judgment of exquisite delicacy.

00:47:28.360 And if you're fuzzy-minded and demented enough because of your own lies that you're incapable of such judgment, you'll make the wrong decision and you'll regret being alive as a consequence.

00:47:41.440 Well, that's one good reason not to do something that you're going to regret. 0.64

00:47:46.640 I mean, I've said for a long time that there should be a category.

00:47:52.460 Perhaps there is one.

00:47:53.320 Somebody watching can describe it to me.

00:47:56.300 But I've thought for a long time there should be a category of argument which is recognized cannot be solved because somebody involved in the argument has done the thing and regrets it deeply.

00:48:08.420 But at such a deep level that they could never face up to it.

00:48:12.600 So the example I've always had in my mind is, if you have an argument like the ethics of abortion, if there's one person in the room who's had an abortion, you're very unlikely to get anywhere in the discussion.

00:48:24.220 Because there is somebody who has everything on the line, everything at stake, and either they regret it, in which case nothing, you can't get anywhere in the discussion because you don't want to open up that pit.

00:48:38.660 Or they have to pretend not to care, in which case you have another glimpse into a pit.

00:48:46.160 Now, actually, again, you and I talked about this last night.

00:48:48.400 Helen Joyce made this brilliant observation about the trans issue recently, which was that we, for the rest of our lives, will all be facing a certain type of person who cares more about that issue than anyone else in the world because they've done the worst possible thing to their child. 0.99

00:49:05.300 And they will never concede it.

00:49:07.420 Or to themselves.

00:49:08.960 Or to themselves.

00:49:10.280 They will never concede it.

00:49:13.240 But moving away from that negative, if I may, I mean, we get back to this thing of people deceive themselves very often unless somebody comes along and says exactly that.

00:49:28.640 That's one of the things I'm fond of Nietzsche about, the person of resentment, is Nietzsche's observation that the secular priest would be required to stand over the person's life and say, you are right. 0.87

00:49:38.120 There is somebody who has destroyed your life in this world.

00:49:40.860 The person is you.

00:49:41.840 Now, our mutual friend, Anthony Daniels, said that when he was a prison doctor, he was one of the few people who actually used to do this with his.

00:49:51.100 Yeah, yeah.

00:49:52.060 He's a remarkable person.

00:49:53.520 He's a wonderful man.

00:49:54.120 Mm-hmm.

00:49:54.400 And that's Theodore Dalrymple, for those of you watching and listening.

00:49:59.200 He's written great books.

00:50:00.500 And he had the observation.

00:50:01.520 He told me once that he quite often in prison would have people coming to him saying, oh, doctor, I think I need some pills, some antidepressants.

00:50:11.220 Why would you, why do you want antidepressants?

00:50:14.420 I go, I think I'm depressed.

00:50:16.100 Why do you think you're depressed?

00:50:17.620 I think I'm suffering from low self-esteem.

00:50:20.500 Mm-hmm.

00:50:20.940 He said he would reply, well, there's one thing you've got right.

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00:51:47.520 Almost without exception, whenever he did this,

00:51:51.280 the patient laughed.

00:51:53.040 Yeah.

00:51:53.300 Because they'd been caught out.

00:51:54.860 Right.

00:51:55.640 The point is, you're in prison for doing a terrible crime.

00:51:59.460 You ought to be depressed.

00:52:00.700 That's why it's a penitentiary.

00:52:02.140 That's why it's a penitentiary.

00:52:03.280 You ought to be suffering.

00:52:05.180 You ought to be questioning your self-esteem at this point.

00:52:08.960 This is a very good time to do it.

00:52:11.700 For like a decade.

00:52:13.000 Yeah.

00:52:13.300 And you ought to medicalize it away.

00:52:14.980 And the state maybe shouldn't help you too easily medicalize away whatever you're feeling in that situation.

00:52:21.160 But I was always struck by that story because I thought how few adults,

00:52:25.960 I always say this, there are so few adults in the room these days,

00:52:29.500 but there are so few adults who will stand over the life of anyone and say,

00:52:34.500 I'm sorry, Baco, but it's you.

00:52:38.700 And I had this.

00:52:39.840 You know, it's so funny because one of the reasons that my lectures have become popular

00:52:44.800 is because I have done that for young men.

00:52:49.220 Yeah.

00:52:49.360 And suggest to them, well, if you're miserable, it's possible. 0.99

00:52:54.860 It's because you're useless and you're not doing what you should be doing. 0.98

00:52:58.160 And you could think perversely and should think likely that why in the world would that possibly be a saleable message? 0.98

00:53:05.300 You know, and the answer is, well, if the person that you're addressing is genuinely miserable and hopeless,

00:53:15.400 and you say, well, maybe there's something that you're not doing quite right,

00:53:19.940 then they now have an avenue of movement forward.

00:53:22.860 Right.

00:53:23.160 And if you say instead, well, it's no wonder you're miserable because the cosmos and the patriarchy are structured such that you're a victim of circumstance without recourse.

00:53:34.520 I had this recently, I was on a program the other day where there was a black British woman on who claimed to have suffered hurt from slavery.

00:53:43.980 And I'm fed up with that claim now.

00:53:46.980 I said, you've not suffered anything.

00:53:49.520 You haven't suffered any hurt.

00:53:51.220 And no one alive has caused you the hurt.

00:53:52.980 Now, of course, a lot of people would say, who are you to say that?

00:53:56.280 You're just another privileged white guy or something.

00:54:00.000 But I actually think it's necessary to say that to people because, as Clarence Thomas points out in his recent Supreme Court judgment on affirmative action,

00:54:10.520 if you don't get that out of the way, the rest of history is going to be a competitive grievance competition.

00:54:17.180 And so you actually need people to say, no, I'm not falling for this.

00:54:23.720 You may have fallen for it.

00:54:24.760 You may have decided that everything in your life would be sorted out if reparations were paid to you by the state of California.

00:54:32.280 I'm not convinced that would help you.

00:54:34.540 I think you'd have a fantastic shopping binge for a few days and be as unpleasant and unhappy a week from Tuesday as you are today.

00:54:44.720 And, but it's very striking.

00:54:48.900 There's something missing in our societies of people saying that, of just saying, you know, we're not going along with your self-perception.

00:54:58.340 And that's on so many things.

00:55:00.580 We're not going along with your self-perception and agreeing to it, not just because it's bad for you, but it's bad for all of us.

00:55:09.200 It's bad, yeah, it's bad for them and for all of us simultaneously.

00:55:12.040 And, you know, that, one of the things I've been really shocked by, I would say, with regard to my fellow therapists, is their absolute cowardice, and almost universally so, on the self-identity.

00:55:27.480 I assume cowardice on behalf of almost everybody.

00:55:30.140 So, I don't expect heroism in our age.

00:55:33.080 It's wonderful when it happens, but you should assume cowardice.

00:55:35.180 I think, I think it's particularly egregious on the therapeutic front with regard to self-identity.

00:55:41.680 Yeah.

00:55:41.940 Because every, so here's two things that every psychologist who's actually trained knows, if they are worthy of the name.

00:55:51.780 The first is, identity is negotiated by anyone who isn't two. 0.90

00:55:58.160 Like, literally.

00:55:58.840 It is, yeah.

00:55:59.940 By three, you negotiate your identity.

00:56:02.580 And if the whole, the definition of being a civilized person is that you negotiate your identity, and you do it constantly.

00:56:10.700 I mean, you and I, sitting here in open dialogue, are negotiating our identities, right?

00:56:16.880 Because we're attempting to modify the manner in which we perceive ourselves and present ourselves as a consequence of exchanging information.

00:56:24.340 We couldn't even talk.

00:56:26.080 Well, of course, the people who push the self-identity mantra also claim that there's no such thing as free speech, right?

00:56:33.160 There's no honest exchange of ideas between men of good faith, let's say, or goodwill.

00:56:40.320 So, that's one thing psychologists know, and they absolutely know this.

00:56:43.860 And part of what you do as a psychologist, if you have any sense at all, is you teach people how to negotiate their identity more effectively.

00:56:51.540 And so, the second thing that psychologists know is that you expose people voluntarily to the things that frighten them, instead of protecting them, you know, in this trigger warning fashion.

00:57:08.980 And all psychologists know that that kind of overprotective attitude is definitely a pathway to psychopathology.

00:57:19.100 And yet, no one will stand up and say that.

00:57:22.520 I have a habit, which I learned from a late friend who was a journalist, which I've tried to stick with throughout my adult life, of always going to one dangerous country a year.

00:57:32.960 And I do it for lots of reasons.

00:57:35.800 One is just curiosity of the world.

00:57:38.140 Another, I suppose, is that it is one of, to go back to what we were saying earlier, one of the best ways to actually feel a sense of gratitude about where you're from and what the good things are in your society.

00:57:48.120 Because unless you've seen a society at war, you don't understand quite how blessed a state of peace is.

00:57:55.760 I mean, and how easily what happens to other people could happen to you.

00:58:02.920 But there are other reasons to do it.

00:58:04.580 And what a miracle it is that that isn't happening all the time everywhere.

00:58:08.040 Absolutely.

00:58:08.920 Because that's the state of nature.

00:58:11.180 That was, yes, absolutely.

00:58:12.940 I mean, that's one of the things that Pinker's right on in the blank slate is deaths in tribal societies, pre-modernity, way higher, violent deaths, way higher even than the average violent deaths of a European male in the 20th century.

00:58:30.960 Right, right, right.

00:58:31.940 So, yes, to some extent, this is a natural state.

00:58:35.760 But I also do it just partly because I learn so much about how societies deteriorate.

00:58:45.160 And as a sort of very, very minimal final thing, you always find out something about yourself.

00:58:53.300 It's never the purpose of doing it, but there is something you find out.

00:58:58.080 Well, okay, so here's a very interesting clinical finding.

00:59:01.980 It was a revolutionary discovery in the 50s, 50s, that's about right.

00:59:10.220 So, the psychoanalysts following Freud would walk people through what they wanted to avoid, and they did that autobiographically, right, by going back into the past.

00:59:23.340 And there's some utility in that.

00:59:25.340 So, the behaviorists came along, and what they did instead was expose people to what they were afraid of here and now.

00:59:34.080 So, for example, if you were afraid of balloons, which is rare but does happen upon occasion, a therapist would sit you down, have you relax, run you through a relaxation exercise, maybe show you a picture of a balloon, ask you to imagine it.

00:59:53.440 Then put a balloon, you know, 15 feet away, and then 10 feet away, and 8 feet away, and then a balloon on your lap, and maybe that takes a number of sessions, and then the fear would disappear.

01:00:06.260 Now, the theory was, the reason the fear disappeared was because you paired the exposure with relaxation.

01:00:12.580 Right.

01:00:13.040 Okay, but then it was discovered that you didn't have to pair it with relaxation, and it still worked.

01:00:18.900 You could be in a sort of hyper-aware state.

01:00:23.560 As long as you're doing it voluntarily.

01:00:25.240 Interesting.

01:00:25.740 You have to do it voluntarily.

01:00:28.200 Interesting.

01:00:28.640 Right, okay.

01:00:29.200 So, then the psychoanalyst's rejoinder to the behaviorists was, you know, the person isn't really afraid of a balloon or an elevator.

01:00:37.660 They're really afraid of death, and if you eradicate the specific fear, it will just move locale because you're not dealing with the root cause.

01:00:44.920 Okay, now that also turned out to be wrong, because what happened is if you exposed people to, say, three things they were afraid of, they would go out voluntarily and expose themselves to all sorts of other things that they were afraid of.

01:00:59.540 So, you didn't make them less afraid.

01:01:01.860 You made them braver.

01:01:03.980 Right.

01:01:04.220 Which is very different.

01:01:05.440 Yes.

01:01:05.680 And so, what you did with exposure therapy was, it was that you transformed people's conceptualizations of themselves.

01:01:13.240 You transformed their conceptualization of themselves from passive victim of malevolent circumstances to active contender with challenge.

01:01:23.020 Seriously, maybe I've been doing, maybe I've been unwittingly doing this to myself all my life.

01:01:30.420 I remember the first time I was covering a conflict, there were rockets landing, and it was, as it actually is, it's quite exhilarating if you're in a, it isn't if you have no choice to be there.

01:01:47.520 If you're a war correspondent or something, it's famously a problem at the job that you can find it exhilarating.

01:01:51.840 Well, that's that distinction between voluntary and involuntary, too.

01:01:54.920 And Winston Churchill famously said, there's no greater feeling than the feeling of being shot at without result.

01:02:02.500 It's an enormously enlivening thing that you feel.

01:02:07.880 You think, not today, death, not today.

01:02:10.200 And, but the first time I was ever in a conflict where there were rockets landing, funnily enough, when I got back from the area where it was happening and got back on the first evening, my immediate instinct was a very strange one to me, which I thought about a lot afterwards, which was that I thought I could look my grandparents in the face.

01:02:31.460 Now, what I mean by that is, and all my grandparents were long dead by then, but what I meant was, they'd all gone through the Blitz or the Second World War.

01:02:40.580 Right.

01:02:42.740 And I'd always wondered how on earth you coped with that.

01:02:47.160 And I suddenly sort of thought, oh, I see, it's like that.

01:02:50.600 So, I would say what you did, okay, so there's a mythological tone to all of the things that you just related.

01:02:57.560 So, the first thing you said was that perhaps you had been doing this unwittingly in some sense your whole life.

01:03:03.500 Well, one of the things that psychologists eventually figured out was that, oh, people are unwittingly doing this their whole life because that's how you learn.

01:03:10.680 Yes.

01:03:10.960 The way you learn is by facing an optimized challenge voluntarily, and that pushes you slightly beyond your current limits.

01:03:19.340 Now, that's where meaning emerges.

01:03:22.400 Right.

01:03:22.800 Right.

01:03:23.200 So, meaning is the instinct that puts you on the edge of transformation.

01:03:26.820 Yes.

01:03:27.280 So, you think I'm going to learn something from this.

01:03:29.400 Yes.

01:03:29.920 And you may learn something about the world or where you are in the world, but you may also learn something about yourself or change as a consequence.

01:03:37.920 Right.

01:03:38.300 And so, the instinct of meaning actually puts you on the edge of chaos.

01:03:43.480 Okay.

01:03:43.800 But the grandfather, so that's the heroic path, by the way.

01:03:46.840 But the grandfather comments extremely interesting, too, the grandparent, because one of the tropes, mythological trope, is that if you go into the belly of the beast, you can rescue your forefathers from the belly of the beast.

01:03:59.680 That's Pinocchio in The Whale.

01:04:01.460 Well, that's what you did in some ways when you…

01:04:03.740 I think I just wanted to know if I could sort of stand – I just always thought that that generation, the heroism, what they went through.

01:04:13.000 Right.

01:04:13.340 I just thought, you know, you always have that thing of what would one do in that situation, how would one behave, you know.

01:04:18.760 And even just getting the smallest glimpse of, okay, I think I could hold it together.

01:04:24.660 Well, that means that you kindled that inside you.

01:04:27.920 The spirit that you saw in your grandparents that you admired, you kindled inside by that exposure.

01:04:34.440 And you said that brought you to a position of, you know, not full equivalence, but at least partial equivalence, right?

01:04:40.800 Well, so here's part of what happens.

01:04:42.740 So, if you expose yourself to optimized challenge, well, first of all, you gather more information.

01:04:48.980 So, these countries you went to, I mean, you're learning about the countries, you're learning about yourself.

01:04:53.300 That's pure information.

01:04:54.760 But here's something else that happens.

01:04:56.140 This is so cool.

01:04:56.980 So, if you put yourself in a new situation, new genes turn on inside you, and they activate parts of you that have not yet come alive.

01:05:09.800 Yes.

01:05:10.580 Right.

01:05:11.260 Right.

01:05:11.760 Yes.

01:05:12.540 No kidding.

01:05:13.220 So, then you might say, so, there's a maze at Chartres Cathedral.

01:05:19.000 I think it's at Chartres.

01:05:20.860 And there's an idea in the maze.

01:05:23.240 So, you enter one side of the maze.

01:05:24.720 It's about 40 feet across.

01:05:25.880 And then you have to walk every quadrant, northwest, south, and northeast, south, and west, every quadrant.

01:05:34.200 And if you've walked every quadrant, you get to the center.

01:05:37.340 The center is also the center of the cross, right?

01:05:39.720 So, that's the place of maximal suffering.

01:05:41.640 But there's an idea there, and redemption, there's an idea there.

01:05:45.420 And the idea is that if you go absolutely everywhere, every bit of you will turn on, right?

01:05:50.720 And a fair bit of that is, right, right, exactly.

01:05:53.700 It is.

01:05:54.240 And you know this.

01:05:55.460 We know this is true.

01:05:56.360 And you think, well, how could it be any other way, right?

01:05:58.600 And you know, too, these experiences that you had where you're voluntarily confronting what's dangerous,

01:06:04.660 that changes you in a way that can't be attained by anyone who hasn't had that experience.

01:06:09.820 Right.

01:06:10.060 Right.

01:06:10.420 If you haven't pushed yourself to your limit, especially, I would say, with regard to the fear of death,

01:06:16.020 then you, there's a change that hasn't occurred within you.

01:06:21.120 And I would say it's a fundamental change of maturation.

01:06:24.300 So.

01:06:25.300 It's definitely, I mean, it's definitely an enormously enlivening feeling, I would say.

01:06:33.240 And.

01:06:34.520 So, what do you think was at the core of the enlivening element of it?

01:06:37.920 I mean, you said it was partly having cheated death.

01:06:40.360 Yes.

01:06:40.780 But that's not all it is, right?

01:06:42.260 Because you also, I had a client who was terrified of death enough to dose herself with sleeping pills constantly,

01:06:50.700 to be unconscious.

01:06:52.540 And she had a dream.

01:06:55.380 And in her dream, the figure she saw was a dwarf in a forest,

01:06:59.860 told her that unless she could learn to work in a slaughterhouse, 0.98

01:07:03.120 she wouldn't be able to graduate from university.

01:07:05.240 Wow.

01:07:05.640 And so, so we, we talked this dream through and I said, well, I don't think I can arrange to have you visit a slaughterhouse.

01:07:11.940 She wouldn't eat meat, by the way, and she couldn't go into a butcher store.

01:07:15.060 Wow.

01:07:15.560 So, I said, I don't, I can't get you into a slaughterhouse,

01:07:18.960 but maybe you could think of something that you could do that would be equivalent.

01:07:24.000 Why don't you think about it for a week?

01:07:25.400 And so she came back and said, I think I'd like to see an embalming.

01:07:28.840 And so I called up some furniture funeral parlor directors, like right then and there.

01:07:36.080 And I said, I have this client who's terrified of death.

01:07:39.000 You guys deal with death all the time.

01:07:41.000 She has this sense that if she came and saw embalming, that it might be helpful to her.

01:07:46.160 And we'd also like to talk to you about how the hell you do this,

01:07:49.320 because you face death every day and like she can't face it at all.

01:07:53.120 And so, and they were very, very understanding and just said yes.

01:07:56.260 And so we went there two weeks later.

01:07:58.980 I'm very squeamish about that sort of thing as well, you know, about that kind of gross physicality, let's say.

01:08:05.880 And so it wasn't something that, you know, I would just wrap off as if it was nothing.

01:08:10.600 But she, my client was absolutely terrified, but it was so interesting.

01:08:14.060 And this is part of the enlivening element.

01:08:15.900 So we were in the hallway separated from the surgical room, so to speak,

01:08:22.520 where the embalming was taking place, which is a very visceral occurrence as you,

01:08:27.240 all the bodily fluids drain, for example.

01:08:29.480 And for the first, first of all, she went to the funeral parlor.

01:08:35.420 Second, she sat in the hallway. 0.88

01:08:37.940 Third, when it first started, she was looking to the side, but she'd do this.

01:08:42.420 And then every time she did that, she'd look a little longer until finally she was watching it completely.

01:08:50.020 And then she said, you know, can I go in the room?

01:08:52.280 Can I put my hand on the body?

01:08:53.980 They put her on a glove and she did that, you know.

01:08:56.100 And now what happened to her, and this was so interesting because she had a lot of neurotic concerns

01:09:02.800 and part of them reflected her own sense of her own weakness.

01:09:08.140 She came out of that knowing that she was a lot less weak than she thought.

01:09:13.100 Because she could do it, right?

01:09:15.280 She didn't think she was that sort of creature.

01:09:17.340 And it turned out that she was that sort of creature, and quite quickly.

01:09:20.640 That's the, learning that about yourself, I mean, is so to be encouraged.

01:09:30.580 So to be encouraged, because the first thing that happens, I'm struck by your example,

01:09:34.380 the first thing that happens is looking away.

01:09:37.640 That's the most natural of instincts.

01:09:40.700 And we all have it.

01:09:41.960 I mean, you'd have to have something slightly wrong not to.

01:09:45.720 But to train yourself to be able to look at the thing that terrifies you,

01:09:49.960 whether it's death or something ugly,

01:09:52.740 it seems to me, at any rate, that it's one of the things that drives me is that

01:10:02.440 if you look at enough, and as long as you don't tip over into the void,

01:10:07.300 if you look at enough, you can get to that place of stillness.

01:10:12.180 There's a metaphor that's always on my mind from the end of Evelyn War's Decline and Fall,

01:10:17.480 where a very curious man who's an architect in the book,

01:10:21.360 and a rather minor figure, is at the very end,

01:10:26.000 when it's been the whole plot, but at the very end,

01:10:28.260 after all the terrible things that have happened to various people,

01:10:30.620 and the human comedy of the whole disaster of the novel,

01:10:33.540 one of the main characters sees this architect,

01:10:38.480 this mysterious figure sitting,

01:10:40.700 watching this fairground ride.

01:10:44.240 And the fairground ride is one where this thing spins round,

01:10:50.240 and there's a net around the outside,

01:10:51.700 and people pay a shilling, and they go on,

01:10:53.600 they try to climb up the side,

01:10:55.120 and they're flung to the sides all the time.

01:10:58.060 And I think his name is Dr. Silenus.

01:11:00.060 It's just watching this, as all the people,

01:11:03.300 and he says how loud they laugh,

01:11:07.960 and how they cackle,

01:11:09.520 and how they get flung around,

01:11:12.260 and how they all try to get to the top.

01:11:15.960 And he says,

01:11:17.240 occasionally the circus pays for somebody who knows how to do it

01:11:21.120 to get to the top and sit there.

01:11:23.760 And he says,

01:11:24.780 that's where you want to be,

01:11:26.240 because at the top, in the center,

01:11:28.880 it's totally still.

01:11:30.680 There's no centrifugal force there.

01:11:32.840 Okay, so I'm curious about something.

01:11:35.520 You made a comment earlier

01:11:36.920 about the fact that

01:11:39.180 your more natural presumption now

01:11:41.860 is to assume that cowardice will be the order of the day.

01:11:44.560 Yes.

01:11:44.980 Okay, so there's something about you that's always struck me.

01:11:47.560 And I've met a lot of people

01:11:50.260 over the last six years, particularly,

01:11:53.340 and I've met a lot of people

01:11:56.220 who have remained silent when they shouldn't.

01:11:58.840 And I've met a few people

01:12:00.120 who will speak,

01:12:03.040 but they're rare.

01:12:04.760 You know, I've probably met 50 or 100 now

01:12:07.440 who will speak,

01:12:08.480 and you're one of them.

01:12:10.160 And Ayaan Hirsi Ali is another one, right?

01:12:12.380 And there are these people who,

01:12:14.660 Jonathan Haidt is another one, right?

01:12:16.740 They don't remain silent.

01:12:18.400 And so now you talked about

01:12:23.080 a pattern through your life

01:12:24.760 of going farther

01:12:26.960 and going places that challenged you.

01:12:29.460 Like, and you talked about the fact

01:12:31.460 that you have seen cowardice

01:12:33.180 as the order of the day,

01:12:34.100 especially that willingness to stay silent.

01:12:36.080 Okay, you're not one of those people.

01:12:38.460 Do you, as far as I can tell,

01:12:40.500 do you know why?

01:12:43.160 And does it,

01:12:43.820 is it tied into that proclivity?

01:12:45.920 Is it tied somehow

01:12:48.340 into that proclivity to push?

01:12:51.000 Well, naturally,

01:12:51.840 I don't think of myself

01:12:52.500 as a particularly brave person.

01:12:54.060 There's lots of people I know

01:12:54.680 who I do think of as brave,

01:12:56.300 but I've always wanted to make sure

01:13:02.280 I didn't not say what I saw.

01:13:06.000 I mean, that's-

01:13:06.360 Why?

01:13:08.240 It would be so embarrassing,

01:13:10.220 humiliating, self-humiliating.

01:13:12.360 I couldn't live with myself if I-

01:13:15.060 Yeah, but I don't think anybody

01:13:16.080 can live with themselves

01:13:16.960 if they fail to do that.

01:13:19.840 Well, I see the case.

01:13:21.000 So the fact that you observe,

01:13:23.000 well, maybe you,

01:13:24.140 it may be that people

01:13:25.720 don't know that so explicitly.

01:13:29.020 Right.

01:13:29.120 Like, my experience has been

01:13:30.360 that everyone who remains silent

01:13:32.240 when they have something to say

01:13:33.560 pays for it.

01:13:35.140 Oh, right.

01:13:35.580 Well, so somebody said to me years ago

01:13:38.320 that they thought that

01:13:39.560 what motivated me was

01:13:40.500 that I have a very low tolerance

01:13:42.400 threshold for lies.

01:13:43.500 I just don't like them.

01:13:44.520 I hate being told.

01:13:47.100 And the particularly big,

01:13:48.880 big lies on the,

01:13:50.340 you know,

01:13:50.800 sort of let's all pretend

01:13:51.820 that we now agree

01:13:52.900 to this thing today

01:13:53.960 that we didn't agree to yesterday.

01:13:56.300 I can't do it.

01:13:57.900 I just won't do it.

01:13:59.880 And I suppose one of the things

01:14:01.180 that also motivates that

01:14:02.080 is that the people I liked

01:14:03.340 and the people I admire

01:14:04.920 are like that.

01:14:06.380 I mean, I've known Ayaan

01:14:07.280 I've known Ayaan for 20 years

01:14:08.560 and I mean, actually,

01:14:10.580 somebody said something

01:14:12.200 I think it was my 40th birthday

01:14:13.720 that said,

01:14:14.620 are you aware

01:14:15.040 you've surrounded yourself

01:14:16.160 with courageous people?

01:14:18.400 And I said,

01:14:19.040 I wasn't actually,

01:14:19.800 but actually it was true

01:14:20.460 that around the table

01:14:21.240 there were some people

01:14:21.820 like Ayaan,

01:14:23.660 a friend of mine

01:14:24.540 who was very brave

01:14:25.340 in the conflict

01:14:25.860 in Northern Ireland

01:14:26.660 and other people,

01:14:28.620 you know,

01:14:28.960 academics I know

01:14:29.820 who I like,

01:14:30.340 who I think are,

01:14:30.900 you know,

01:14:31.220 and I actually hadn't

01:14:32.460 particularly noticed it,

01:14:33.460 but it's true.

01:14:34.920 Now, there's two lessons

01:14:36.440 I took from that.

01:14:37.240 One is,

01:14:38.220 I just like courageous people.

01:14:40.380 I like people

01:14:41.180 who say what they think

01:14:42.160 and they're much more fun,

01:14:43.900 of course,

01:14:44.260 and they're much better friends

01:14:45.380 and you have a much better time

01:14:46.640 and you actually get somewhere

01:14:47.720 because you don't have

01:14:48.780 to all lie to each other

01:14:49.740 and all that sort of thing.

01:14:50.940 You actually get to somewhere

01:14:52.160 in the discussion

01:14:53.000 and that's a pretty good idea.

01:14:55.220 The second thing is probably,

01:14:56.420 I thought actually

01:14:57.220 maybe it is deliberate

01:14:58.100 because I probably recognized,

01:15:01.340 rightly, I think,

01:15:02.180 that if you surround yourself

01:15:04.740 or near courageous people,

01:15:06.320 it's more likely

01:15:06.820 you'll be courageous yourself.

01:15:08.420 So, for instance,

01:15:09.700 you know,

01:15:10.360 sometimes people say,

01:15:11.340 well, if, you know,

01:15:12.220 you said this thing

01:15:13.300 and everyone hates you for it

01:15:14.960 and I genuinely,

01:15:16.500 I don't care.

01:15:17.860 Now, why do I not care?

01:15:19.000 Because I only care

01:15:20.240 about a small number of people

01:15:21.900 whose opinion I care for

01:15:23.680 and I don't understand

01:15:29.280 why anyone cares

01:15:31.500 about the opprobrium of millions.

01:15:33.920 If you have four people,

01:15:35.900 three people

01:15:36.500 who you admire

01:15:38.700 and who you know admire you

01:15:40.280 and you're fine.

01:15:42.680 I don't think it,

01:15:43.460 I, I, I, I...

01:15:45.000 Okay, so let me ask you

01:15:46.180 about that admiration,

01:15:47.920 you know,

01:15:48.380 because I've thought a lot

01:15:49.340 about admiration

01:15:51.340 because I think admiration

01:15:53.400 is what,

01:15:56.520 it's a manifestation

01:15:57.400 of the religious instinct.

01:16:00.020 Yeah.

01:16:00.660 So, so because

01:16:02.500 to admire someone is,

01:16:04.320 if you admire them enough,

01:16:05.360 you're awestruck

01:16:05.940 in their presence.

01:16:06.880 Yeah.

01:16:07.260 That would be the ultimate

01:16:08.320 manifestation of admiration

01:16:10.420 and awe is a primarily,

01:16:13.480 a primary religious experience,

01:16:16.200 right?

01:16:16.420 It's the experience

01:16:17.180 of seeing something

01:16:17.880 that's beyond you

01:16:19.520 in a manner

01:16:20.320 that's compelling,

01:16:21.400 right?

01:16:21.600 And so,

01:16:23.680 and you said

01:16:24.660 you admire

01:16:25.800 people who tell the truth.

01:16:28.180 Yes.

01:16:28.900 And so,

01:16:30.020 what I would,

01:16:31.180 what I'm curious about,

01:16:32.460 if I said to you,

01:16:34.160 is there any difference

01:16:35.240 between that

01:16:35.900 and the religious proclamation,

01:16:38.280 let's say,

01:16:38.900 that the truth

01:16:39.840 will set you free,

01:16:41.120 right?

01:16:41.320 That's part of the doctrine

01:16:42.260 of the word,

01:16:43.420 right?

01:16:43.880 I mean,

01:16:44.320 you and I have had discussions

01:16:45.500 and more,

01:16:46.400 more and more of them

01:16:47.340 with people like

01:16:48.340 Jonathan Pajot

01:16:49.180 about

01:16:49.580 what

01:16:51.040 a moral

01:16:53.740 system

01:16:55.040 has to be grounded in,

01:16:56.480 right?

01:16:56.960 And the humanist types,

01:16:58.640 we sort of began

01:16:59.380 our conversation today

01:17:00.620 with this,

01:17:01.320 the humanist types

01:17:02.080 think that

01:17:02.680 you can ground

01:17:04.180 morality

01:17:05.380 in something like

01:17:06.760 a system of facts.

01:17:08.560 And see,

01:17:09.160 I don't,

01:17:09.440 I don't think

01:17:09.940 that's true

01:17:10.940 and I think it's actually

01:17:11.840 technically untrue.

01:17:12.940 I think that we

01:17:13.600 ground morality

01:17:15.160 in something like,

01:17:17.280 God,

01:17:18.060 it's something like

01:17:18.860 the religious instinct

01:17:20.000 and I am trying

01:17:21.720 to figure that out

01:17:22.400 technically.

01:17:23.080 Like,

01:17:23.760 certainly one of the things

01:17:25.020 that orients you morally

01:17:25.960 is the sense of admiration.

01:17:27.720 Yes.

01:17:28.160 Well,

01:17:28.360 then you might ask yourself,

01:17:29.920 what provokes admiration

01:17:34.060 appropriately and naturally?

01:17:35.820 Yes.

01:17:35.980 And we could say,

01:17:36.640 well,

01:17:36.820 courage does.

01:17:37.640 Courage does.

01:17:38.680 Definitely courage does,

01:17:39.940 right?

01:17:40.460 Should.

01:17:41.200 Should,

01:17:41.780 yes,

01:17:41.980 but I think it almost

01:17:43.140 invariably does.

01:17:44.320 You have to work

01:17:45.500 really hard

01:17:46.220 as we are in our age

01:17:47.280 to discourage people

01:17:49.120 from admiring courage.

01:17:50.300 Right,

01:17:50.600 right.

01:17:50.940 Well,

01:17:51.140 and then you even see

01:17:52.160 among bad guys,

01:17:53.740 let's say,

01:17:54.440 like if you look at

01:17:55.540 mafioso movies,

01:17:57.860 I mean,

01:17:59.200 the mafioso villain types

01:18:01.800 are at least courageous.

01:18:04.620 Yes.

01:18:05.100 Right?

01:18:05.520 Yes.

01:18:05.740 And they have their own

01:18:06.500 system of ethics.

01:18:07.280 And they have their,

01:18:08.200 that's right.

01:18:08.640 Very strict system.

01:18:09.180 Yes,

01:18:09.440 yes,

01:18:09.860 yes.

01:18:10.100 And so even though

01:18:11.140 you might not say

01:18:12.200 that that's the most

01:18:13.000 profound set

01:18:14.080 of orienting guidelines

01:18:15.400 because it's criminal

01:18:16.900 in its orientation,

01:18:18.100 it's not nothing

01:18:19.120 and there is a certain

01:18:19.920 amount of courage.

01:18:20.940 And you could also

01:18:21.680 point out,

01:18:22.500 and this is sort of,

01:18:23.920 what would you say,

01:18:24.780 a comment on

01:18:25.660 the necessity

01:18:26.740 of integrating the shadow

01:18:28.180 is that

01:18:28.660 someone who's

01:18:31.380 forthright enough

01:18:32.600 to be a mafioso

01:18:33.740 at least isn't

01:18:35.980 terrified

01:18:36.540 into dependent

01:18:37.780 neuroticism.

01:18:39.000 Yes.

01:18:39.560 Right,

01:18:39.920 right,

01:18:40.360 right.

01:18:40.580 So there's kind of,

01:18:41.500 there's a hierarchy

01:18:42.160 of virtue

01:18:42.860 and the forthright

01:18:45.020 bad guy

01:18:45.720 isn't the lowest

01:18:46.900 entity.

01:18:48.340 That's right.

01:18:49.500 So,

01:18:49.800 so,

01:18:50.300 so there,

01:18:51.680 there are

01:18:52.400 valid markers

01:18:56.380 for admiration,

01:18:58.100 right,

01:18:58.340 courage.

01:18:59.940 I think brotherhood

01:19:01.540 in some sense

01:19:02.340 is also,

01:19:03.060 that's something

01:19:03.460 you also alluded to,

01:19:04.740 you know,

01:19:04.960 you said that you noticed

01:19:05.940 that you had aggregated

01:19:07.100 around you

01:19:07.740 people who were

01:19:09.940 willing to speak

01:19:10.620 their minds.

01:19:11.040 and I think

01:19:11.560 the reason

01:19:11.940 for that

01:19:12.280 likely is,

01:19:12.960 is that

01:19:13.240 if you speak

01:19:15.520 your mind

01:19:16.060 and you

01:19:16.700 pay the price

01:19:18.080 and you reap

01:19:18.600 the benefits

01:19:19.180 of that,

01:19:19.900 pay the price

01:19:20.340 for that,

01:19:20.720 reap the benefits,

01:19:22.080 other people

01:19:22.820 who've done that

01:19:23.860 notice

01:19:24.600 and you find them

01:19:26.480 and they find you.

01:19:27.380 I mean,

01:19:27.520 that's certainly,

01:19:28.160 that's happened

01:19:28.800 as I've risen

01:19:30.520 to notoriety.

01:19:31.400 and so,

01:19:32.560 and that's also

01:19:33.460 a huge reward,

01:19:34.760 right?

01:19:34.880 Yes,

01:19:34.980 absolutely.

01:19:35.860 So,

01:19:36.240 is the opportunity

01:19:37.740 to meet people

01:19:38.800 in different spheres

01:19:40.140 who've done

01:19:40.580 great things

01:19:41.600 and that's,

01:19:42.640 I mean,

01:19:42.840 that's an enormous

01:19:44.080 benefit

01:19:46.700 of the life I live

01:19:47.620 and I'm sure

01:19:47.920 the life you live

01:19:48.740 is the incalculable,

01:19:50.760 you know,

01:19:52.380 gift

01:19:53.320 of meeting people

01:19:55.220 who've done

01:19:55.760 extraordinary things

01:19:56.680 and from a bewildering

01:20:00.280 array of backgrounds,

01:20:01.700 you know,

01:20:01.980 I mean,

01:20:02.240 it's like,

01:20:03.420 I don't know,

01:20:04.220 among our circle

01:20:05.060 of people

01:20:05.540 who we know

01:20:06.500 and are friends with,

01:20:07.260 I think,

01:20:08.320 I think there's nothing

01:20:10.160 they have in common

01:20:10.900 other than

01:20:11.520 probably

01:20:12.400 a similar

01:20:14.080 desire to say

01:20:15.720 the truth

01:20:16.100 as they see it

01:20:17.300 and to do so

01:20:18.620 in the face of

01:20:19.600 whatever comes their way

01:20:21.140 and that might be

01:20:22.940 a Yon Lee Park

01:20:24.340 or it might be

01:20:26.140 Jonathan Pajot

01:20:28.340 it might be

01:20:29.080 right

01:20:30.180 there's no

01:20:30.960 there's no commonality

01:20:32.820 of background experience

01:20:34.480 and by the way

01:20:35.280 then that's one of the things

01:20:36.000 I would say

01:20:36.480 is that we're

01:20:36.820 to encourage people

01:20:37.800 is that

01:20:39.040 in that case

01:20:40.180 like you can do it too

01:20:41.760 yeah,

01:20:42.160 right

01:20:42.400 and

01:20:43.780 you know,

01:20:45.880 I'm

01:20:46.260 one of the reasons

01:20:47.400 I'm sort of rather

01:20:48.080 actually optimistic

01:20:49.860 about

01:20:50.240 the next generation

01:20:52.040 coming along

01:20:52.660 in America

01:20:53.200 and in

01:20:53.640 the Western democracies

01:20:55.000 in general

01:20:55.440 is that

01:20:55.820 I think

01:20:56.400 the smarter ones

01:20:58.120 and I'm sure

01:20:58.480 you see this

01:20:59.020 all the time

01:20:59.420 the smarter ones

01:21:00.720 have all seen

01:21:01.360 through the

01:21:02.280 dogma of the day

01:21:03.720 and they don't like it

01:21:05.500 and although

01:21:07.080 there are these

01:21:07.680 sorts of

01:21:08.300 prim,

01:21:08.880 censorious

01:21:09.720 you know

01:21:11.300 tittle-tattle

01:21:12.720 tell-tale

01:21:13.700 people

01:21:14.160 in their 20s

01:21:15.720 and some 1.00

01:21:16.780 pathetic people 0.99

01:21:18.380 in their 30s 1.00

01:21:19.040 and 40s

01:21:19.560 and so on

01:21:20.060 nevertheless

01:21:21.200 people coming up

01:21:22.640 in their teens

01:21:23.340 and early 20s

01:21:24.320 now

01:21:24.720 have seen

01:21:25.680 through those

01:21:26.160 people

01:21:26.420 they don't like

01:21:27.060 them

01:21:27.360 they're right

01:21:27.920 not to like

01:21:28.540 them

01:21:28.840 and so

01:21:30.960 actually

01:21:31.320 that's why

01:21:31.620 they look to

01:21:32.120 people like

01:21:32.600 Joe Rogan

01:21:33.240 right

01:21:33.900 and

01:21:34.380 they're right

01:21:35.320 to look

01:21:35.620 they are

01:21:35.960 they are

01:21:36.500 because

01:21:36.680 here's something

01:21:37.260 he's very

01:21:37.580 successful

01:21:38.040 very funny

01:21:38.720 very smart

01:21:39.440 very tough

01:21:40.320 very tough

01:21:41.140 lives the life

01:21:41.700 he wants to live

01:21:42.400 as you know

01:21:42.900 if you go to

01:21:43.300 Joe's studio

01:21:43.840 it's pretty much

01:21:44.440 what

01:21:45.200 at the age

01:21:46.520 of about 15

01:21:47.320 you thought

01:21:47.780 you do

01:21:48.340 if you've got

01:21:49.160 some

01:21:49.500 tax

01:21:50.040 and that's

01:21:51.740 pretty great

01:21:52.660 I mean

01:21:53.020 you know

01:21:53.360 and

01:21:53.720 I think

01:21:55.120 that

01:21:55.400 the more

01:21:56.040 that happens

01:21:56.800 the more

01:21:57.220 people see

01:21:57.940 there's a way

01:21:58.940 through

01:21:59.080 the more

01:22:00.060 we'll have

01:22:00.500 this sort

01:22:00.820 of aggregator

01:22:01.440 effect

01:22:01.680 okay

01:22:01.800 so

01:22:02.080 let me ask

01:22:03.360 you this

01:22:03.700 that you

01:22:04.080 know

01:22:04.200 you said

01:22:04.700 that

01:22:04.980 you can't

01:22:06.280 for one

01:22:06.740 reason or

01:22:07.160 another

01:22:07.340 you can't

01:22:08.100 or you

01:22:08.380 have decided

01:22:08.960 not to

01:22:09.660 abide

01:22:10.460 lies

01:22:11.460 and so

01:22:12.480 I would

01:22:13.200 ask you

01:22:13.960 to what

01:22:14.620 degree

01:22:15.080 has the

01:22:17.160 adventure

01:22:17.640 of your

01:22:18.020 life

01:22:18.300 that's

01:22:18.640 a good

01:22:18.840 way

01:22:19.040 of

01:22:19.180 thinking

01:22:19.400 about

01:22:19.700 it

01:22:19.880 being

01:22:20.880 a

01:22:21.640 consequence

01:22:22.160 of

01:22:22.680 exactly

01:22:23.360 that

01:22:23.820 so

01:22:25.800 I've

01:22:26.160 started

01:22:26.540 to

01:22:30.140 understand

01:22:30.660 you tell

01:22:31.160 me what

01:22:31.420 you think

01:22:31.700 of this

01:22:31.980 so

01:22:32.220 you can

01:22:34.060 use

01:22:34.300 language

01:22:34.680 two

01:22:35.000 ways

01:22:35.380 you can

01:22:36.760 either

01:22:37.120 decide

01:22:38.900 what you

01:22:39.220 want

01:22:39.440 from

01:22:39.620 someone

01:22:39.900 before

01:22:40.180 you

01:22:40.360 talk

01:22:40.560 to

01:22:40.700 them

01:22:40.840 and

01:22:41.320 then

01:22:41.440 you

01:22:41.580 can

01:22:41.740 craft

01:22:42.080 every

01:22:42.400 word

01:22:42.720 that

01:22:42.940 you

01:22:43.100 utter

01:22:43.360 in

01:22:43.700 order

01:22:43.860 to

01:22:44.060 extract

01:22:44.500 that

01:22:44.780 that's

01:22:45.760 instrumental

01:22:46.160 use

01:22:46.520 of

01:22:46.660 language

01:22:46.940 I've

01:22:48.280 talked

01:22:48.480 to

01:22:48.580 lots

01:22:48.740 of

01:22:48.900 journalists

01:22:49.320 who

01:22:49.520 do

01:22:49.660 that

01:22:50.040 for sure

01:22:50.740 or

01:22:51.160 you

01:22:51.800 can

01:22:51.980 just

01:22:52.180 sit

01:22:52.400 down

01:22:52.700 and

01:22:53.080 you

01:22:53.460 can

01:22:53.580 say

01:22:53.780 what

01:22:53.940 you

01:22:54.060 think

01:22:54.380 and

01:22:55.560 see

01:22:55.720 what

01:22:55.860 happens

01:22:56.340 and

01:22:56.900 those

01:22:57.080 are

01:22:57.200 very

01:22:57.420 very

01:22:57.640 now

01:22:57.840 this

01:22:58.020 is

01:22:58.100 what

01:22:58.240 Rogan

01:22:58.540 does

01:22:58.780 in

01:22:59.160 his

01:22:59.360 interviews

01:22:59.740 he

01:22:59.960 just

01:23:00.200 says

01:23:00.860 what

01:23:01.060 he

01:23:01.160 thinks

01:23:01.500 and

01:23:01.840 he

01:23:01.960 sees

01:23:02.180 what

01:23:02.380 happens

01:23:02.880 now

01:23:03.520 the

01:23:04.660 advantage

01:23:05.060 to

01:23:05.300 the

01:23:05.480 former

01:23:06.020 strategy

01:23:07.280 is

01:23:07.720 that

01:23:08.020 in

01:23:09.040 principle

01:23:09.360 you

01:23:09.580 get

01:23:09.760 what

01:23:09.920 you

01:23:10.040 want

01:23:10.400 but

01:23:11.400 the

01:23:11.580 disadvantage

01:23:12.100 is

01:23:12.420 well

01:23:12.580 you

01:23:12.680 might

01:23:12.840 have

01:23:13.000 to

01:23:13.120 manipulate

01:23:13.420 people

01:23:13.880 and

01:23:14.060 they'll

01:23:14.220 catch

01:23:14.460 on

01:23:14.660 to

01:23:14.740 that

01:23:14.940 and

01:23:15.120 the

01:23:15.500 second

01:23:15.820 and

01:23:16.040 more

01:23:16.200 profound

01:23:16.580 disadvantage

01:23:17.120 is

01:23:17.480 what

01:23:18.160 the 0.99

01:23:18.300 hell 0.58

01:23:18.420 do 0.79

01:23:18.560 you

01:23:18.660 know

01:23:18.880 about

01:23:19.100 what

01:23:19.300 you

01:23:19.440 want

01:23:19.760 you

01:23:20.740 know

01:23:20.880 it's

01:23:21.120 not

01:23:21.240 like

01:23:21.420 you're

01:23:21.600 transparent

01:23:22.120 to

01:23:22.340 yourself

01:23:22.720 yes

01:23:23.120 and

01:23:23.360 so

01:23:23.480 you

01:23:23.600 might

01:23:23.780 have

01:23:23.980 some

01:23:24.220 bloody

01:23:24.500 scheme

01:23:24.960 that

01:23:25.200 you

01:23:25.360 think

01:23:25.660 you're

01:23:25.860 seeing

01:23:26.160 through

01:23:26.500 and

01:23:27.120 you

01:23:27.240 might

01:23:27.420 manipulate

01:23:27.860 to

01:23:28.240 get

01:23:28.420 it

01:23:28.520 but

01:23:28.660 that

01:23:28.820 doesn't

01:23:29.020 mean

01:23:29.160 it'll

01:23:29.320 be

01:23:29.420 good

01:23:29.580 for

01:23:29.740 you

01:23:29.820 when

01:23:29.960 you

01:23:30.060 get

01:23:30.240 it

01:23:30.360 and

01:23:30.480 so

01:23:30.640 you

01:23:30.860 could

01:23:31.020 contrast

01:23:31.560 that

01:23:31.900 instead

01:23:32.240 with

01:23:32.500 a

01:23:32.640 different

01:23:32.880 proposition

01:23:33.480 which

01:23:33.880 is

01:23:34.080 and

01:23:34.420 I

01:23:34.540 think

01:23:34.720 this

01:23:34.960 is

01:23:35.080 a

01:23:35.220 correct

01:23:35.480 proposition

01:23:36.100 and

01:23:37.100 I

01:23:37.240 think

01:23:37.420 it's

01:23:37.620 the

01:23:37.760 maybe

01:23:38.280 the

01:23:38.520 fundamental

01:23:39.020 religious

01:23:39.480 proposition

01:23:40.140 possibly

01:23:40.940 is

01:23:41.580 that

01:23:41.860 whatever

01:23:43.360 happens

01:23:43.940 if

01:23:44.380 you

01:23:44.760 are

01:23:45.520 acting

01:23:46.080 in

01:23:46.720 accordance

01:23:47.020 with

01:23:47.240 the

01:23:47.400 truth

01:23:47.720 is

01:23:49.080 the

01:23:49.460 best

01:23:49.720 thing

01:23:49.920 that

01:23:50.080 could

01:23:50.200 have

01:23:50.320 possibly

01:23:50.700 happened

01:23:51.100 regardless

01:23:52.100 of how

01:23:52.680 it

01:23:52.860 seems

01:23:53.100 to

01:23:53.260 you

01:23:53.400 at

01:23:53.560 the

01:23:53.680 time

01:23:53.960 and

01:23:55.040 so

01:23:55.360 that's

01:23:55.940 a

01:23:56.500 dubious

01:23:56.840 proposition

01:23:57.320 but

01:23:57.600 here's

01:23:57.880 one

01:23:58.080 that's

01:23:58.320 not

01:23:58.520 so

01:23:58.700 dubious

01:23:59.060 I

01:23:59.240 think

01:23:59.420 although

01:23:59.620 I

01:23:59.800 do

01:23:59.920 think

01:24:00.140 it's

01:24:00.320 true

01:24:00.500 if

01:24:02.400 you

01:24:02.560 have

01:24:02.820 to

01:24:02.980 let

01:24:03.220 go

01:24:03.460 of

01:24:03.620 the

01:24:03.780 consequences

01:24:04.300 of

01:24:04.580 your

01:24:04.740 words

01:24:05.100 because

01:24:05.380 you're

01:24:05.620 just

01:24:05.760 going

01:24:05.920 to

01:24:05.940 let

01:24:06.100 the

01:24:06.260 cards

01:24:06.520 fall

01:24:06.860 wherever

01:24:07.200 they're

01:24:07.440 going

01:24:07.540 to

01:24:07.640 fall

01:24:07.960 you

01:24:09.040 get

01:24:09.220 to

01:24:09.340 have

01:24:09.500 an

01:24:09.620 adventure

01:24:10.000 because

01:24:10.540 you

01:24:10.660 don't

01:24:10.780 know

01:24:10.880 what

01:24:11.020 the 0.99

01:24:11.140 hell 0.70

01:24:11.260 is

01:24:11.360 going

01:24:11.480 to

01:24:11.560 happen

01:24:11.840 absolutely

01:24:12.380 yeah

01:24:12.700 okay

01:24:13.220 so

01:24:13.440 you

01:24:23.560 which

01:24:23.760 is

01:24:25.040 predicated

01:24:26.100 on an

01:24:26.480 idea

01:24:26.880 which

01:24:27.200 I

01:24:27.360 believe

01:24:27.600 to

01:24:27.760 be

01:24:27.900 true

01:24:28.140 which

01:24:28.440 is

01:24:28.680 that

01:24:29.200 the

01:24:30.140 point

01:24:30.440 of

01:24:30.600 truth

01:24:30.880 is

01:24:31.080 not

01:24:31.300 just

01:24:31.600 a

01:24:31.780 sort

01:24:31.980 of

01:24:32.160 it's

01:24:33.700 not

01:24:33.860 a

01:24:34.040 game

01:24:34.500 it's

01:24:34.920 to

01:24:35.040 get

01:24:35.240 you

01:24:35.440 somewhere

01:24:35.900 you

01:24:36.660 know

01:24:36.900 it's

01:24:37.500 like

01:24:37.620 the

01:24:37.760 search

01:24:38.000 for

01:24:38.180 meaning

01:24:38.480 you

01:24:38.780 either

01:24:39.500 devolve

01:24:40.800 I think

01:24:41.040 I said

01:24:41.300 this

01:24:41.460 with you

01:24:41.700 and

01:24:41.820 Jonathan

01:24:42.040 before

01:24:42.300 you

01:24:42.500 either

01:24:43.100 devolve

01:24:43.460 into

01:24:43.680 the

01:24:43.860 idea

01:24:44.420 that

01:24:44.600 we're

01:24:44.760 meaning

01:24:45.020 seeking

01:24:45.360 creatures

01:24:45.840 but

01:24:46.040 there's

01:24:46.260 no

01:24:46.460 meaning

01:24:46.880 or

01:24:47.420 you

01:24:47.540 say

01:24:47.700 we're

01:24:47.920 meaning

01:24:48.140 seeking

01:24:48.380 creatures

01:24:48.780 and

01:24:49.580 there's

01:24:49.800 a

01:24:49.960 reason

01:24:51.040 for

01:24:51.300 that

01:24:51.600 and

01:24:52.340 the

01:24:52.480 reason

01:24:52.740 is

01:24:53.040 it's

01:24:53.380 because

01:24:53.660 we're

01:24:53.920 hoping

01:24:54.160 to

01:24:54.340 get

01:24:54.560 somewhere

01:24:55.200 to

01:24:56.380 that

01:24:56.580 center

01:24:56.980 that

01:24:57.240 I

01:24:58.040 talked

01:24:58.300 about

01:24:58.520 you

01:24:59.460 hope

01:25:00.380 that's

01:25:00.720 the

01:25:00.840 same

01:25:01.080 as

01:25:01.220 the

01:25:01.400 center

01:25:01.720 of

01:25:01.940 the

01:25:02.580 maze

01:25:03.440 you

01:25:03.600 hope

01:25:04.940 that

01:25:05.440 if

01:25:06.080 you

01:25:06.320 you

01:25:06.760 know

01:25:08.740 it

01:25:08.900 sounds

01:25:09.060 like

01:25:09.180 but

01:25:10.000 if

01:25:10.440 you

01:25:10.560 tread

01:25:10.760 in

01:25:10.940 truth

01:25:11.240 if

01:25:11.500 you

01:25:13.000 follow

01:25:14.840 your

01:25:15.100 instinct

01:25:15.420 towards

01:25:15.860 truth

01:25:16.280 you're

01:25:17.340 bound

01:25:17.620 to

01:25:17.820 make

01:25:18.040 some

01:25:18.260 missteps

01:25:18.740 you're

01:25:18.960 bound

01:25:19.100 to

01:25:19.220 get

01:25:19.340 some

01:25:19.540 things

01:25:19.740 wrong

01:25:20.000 as

01:25:20.140 everybody

01:25:20.420 does

01:25:20.920 but

01:25:21.500 the

01:25:21.640 orientation

01:25:22.240 of

01:25:22.520 where

01:25:22.660 you're

01:25:22.840 going

01:25:23.100 to

01:25:23.300 is

01:25:23.480 correct

01:25:23.960 it

01:25:25.220 is

01:25:25.400 correct

01:25:25.740 and

01:25:25.960 the

01:25:26.280 end

01:25:26.520 of

01:25:26.640 it

01:25:26.820 whatever

01:25:28.080 it

01:25:28.380 was

01:25:28.600 you

01:25:28.740 were

01:25:28.860 meant

01:25:29.020 to

01:25:29.140 be

01:25:29.260 in

01:25:29.400 your

01:25:29.520 life

01:25:29.840 is

01:25:30.320 more

01:25:30.520 likely

01:25:30.800 to

01:25:31.000 be

01:25:31.140 what

01:25:31.400 you'll

01:25:31.860 be

01:25:32.060 than

01:25:32.520 if

01:25:32.680 you

01:25:32.840 set

01:25:33.120 off

01:25:33.340 in

01:25:33.540 error

01:25:33.820 and

01:25:34.320 deliberately

01:25:34.960 suppressed

01:25:36.020 what

01:25:36.860 you

01:25:37.080 believed

01:25:37.680 and what

01:25:38.100 you

01:25:38.220 wanted

01:25:38.460 to do

01:25:38.780 in

01:25:38.940 your life

01:25:39.200 here's

01:25:39.580 a corollary

01:25:40.760 to

01:25:40.960 that

01:25:41.280 also

01:25:41.760 I

01:25:42.000 would

01:25:42.160 say

01:25:42.420 is

01:25:42.620 that

01:25:42.840 if

01:25:43.740 you

01:25:43.920 say

01:25:44.160 what

01:25:44.360 you

01:25:44.580 think

01:25:45.060 then

01:25:45.680 it's

01:25:45.900 you

01:25:46.100 saying

01:25:46.480 and

01:25:46.640 you

01:25:46.780 thinking

01:25:47.140 and

01:25:47.840 that

01:25:48.000 means

01:25:48.240 that

01:25:48.440 whatever

01:25:48.740 happens

01:25:49.380 is

01:25:49.940 your

01:25:50.360 life

01:25:50.840 but

01:25:51.820 if

01:25:51.980 you

01:25:52.160 engage

01:25:52.620 in

01:25:52.820 falsehood

01:25:53.380 then

01:25:54.760 I

01:25:55.980 think

01:25:56.280 you're

01:25:56.460 the 1.00

01:25:56.600 devil's

01:25:57.040 puppet

01:25:57.360 fundamentally

01:25:58.020 but

01:25:58.340 and

01:25:58.580 the

01:25:58.700 reason

01:25:58.940 I

01:25:59.140 think

01:25:59.340 that

01:25:59.560 is

01:25:59.680 because

01:26:00.000 if

01:26:00.800 you're

01:26:01.040 engaging

01:26:01.420 in

01:26:01.660 falsehood

01:26:02.220 then

01:26:03.020 whatever

01:26:03.340 it

01:26:03.580 is

01:26:03.720 that

01:26:03.880 you're

01:26:04.040 saying

01:26:04.280 and

01:26:04.460 thinking

01:26:04.800 it

01:26:05.840 isn't

01:26:06.160 you

01:26:06.480 by

01:26:07.220 definition

01:26:07.740 because

01:26:08.260 it's

01:26:09.500 not

01:26:09.740 it's

01:26:10.700 not

01:26:10.920 what

01:26:11.120 you

01:26:11.520 think

01:26:12.040 and

01:26:12.240 you

01:26:12.420 can

01:26:12.820 tease

01:26:14.380 that

01:26:14.660 out

01:26:14.920 of

01:26:15.080 people

01:26:15.420 rather

01:26:15.760 like

01:26:16.080 theodore

01:26:16.320 Dalrymple 0.91

01:26:16.780 did

01:26:17.020 with

01:26:17.180 those

01:26:17.920 prisoners

01:26:18.380 you

01:26:19.040 can

01:26:19.200 tease

01:26:19.440 it

01:26:19.560 out

01:26:19.700 with

01:26:19.820 people

01:26:20.000 like

01:26:20.580 Joe

01:26:20.820 in

01:26:21.080 comedy

01:26:21.900 because

01:26:22.740 my

01:26:23.940 late

01:26:24.160 friend

01:26:24.400 Clive

01:26:24.700 James

01:26:25.080 had

01:26:25.320 this

01:26:25.460 beautiful

01:26:25.740 saying

01:26:26.120 he

01:26:26.540 wrote

01:26:26.980 somewhere

01:26:27.300 he

01:26:27.500 said

01:26:27.660 common

01:26:29.020 sense

01:26:29.620 and

01:26:30.860 humor

01:26:31.380 are

01:26:32.280 the

01:26:32.440 same

01:26:32.680 thing

01:26:33.120 moving

01:26:33.480 at

01:26:33.680 different

01:26:34.020 speeds

01:26:34.820 humor

01:26:36.200 is

01:26:36.480 just

01:26:36.660 common

01:26:37.060 sense

01:26:37.520 dancing

01:26:38.320 now

01:26:39.680 I

01:26:40.800 love

01:26:41.100 this

01:26:41.380 quote

01:26:41.940 and

01:26:42.120 one

01:26:43.080 of

01:26:43.220 the

01:26:43.320 things

01:26:43.540 that

01:26:43.680 says

01:26:43.860 Jesser

01:26:44.140 about

01:26:44.340 it

01:26:44.460 is

01:26:44.620 a

01:26:45.200 comedian

01:26:45.660 or

01:26:46.940 anyone

01:26:47.560 any

01:26:48.060 of us

01:26:48.280 who

01:26:48.400 tell

01:26:48.580 a

01:26:48.740 joke

01:26:49.100 if

01:26:50.220 it's

01:26:50.340 a

01:26:50.440 good

01:26:50.600 joke

01:26:51.080 irrespective

01:26:52.300 of whether

01:26:52.540 or not

01:26:52.820 it's

01:26:53.020 offensive

01:26:53.420 to

01:26:53.700 some

01:26:53.940 person

01:26:54.520 people

01:26:55.940 laugh

01:26:56.460 and the

01:26:57.640 laughter

01:26:58.000 is the

01:26:58.380 recognition

01:26:58.860 that what

01:26:59.260 has

01:26:59.420 happened

01:26:59.760 is

01:27:00.080 real

01:27:00.900 it's

01:27:02.780 reality

01:27:03.700 dancing

01:27:04.400 it's

01:27:06.220 reality

01:27:06.940 riffing

01:27:07.460 on

01:27:07.620 itself

01:27:08.100 at a

01:27:08.940 higher

01:27:09.280 speed

01:27:09.740 and

01:27:09.760 transcending

01:27:10.360 itself

01:27:10.820 absolutely

01:27:11.340 and one

01:27:12.180 of the

01:27:12.400 greatest

01:27:12.780 things

01:27:13.100 why I'm

01:27:13.740 very

01:27:14.160 confident

01:27:15.120 that if

01:27:15.680 you have

01:27:15.940 enough

01:27:16.180 comedians

01:27:16.760 in our

01:27:17.120 society

01:27:17.500 who are

01:27:17.820 good

01:27:18.060 we might

01:27:18.440 get out

01:27:18.860 of this

01:27:19.400 because

01:27:20.260 those are

01:27:20.840 the ten

01:27:21.240 good men

01:27:21.760 in Sodom

01:27:22.320 by the way

01:27:22.880 who dare

01:27:24.200 to tell

01:27:24.580 the truth

01:27:25.040 exactly

01:27:25.540 and

01:27:25.980 the fact

01:27:28.160 that our

01:27:28.620 age might

01:27:29.080 need to

01:27:29.320 rely on

01:27:29.660 comedians

01:27:30.080 will tell

01:27:30.420 us

01:27:30.520 something

01:27:30.720 about

01:27:30.940 our

01:27:31.120 age

01:27:31.300 but

01:27:31.460 nevertheless

01:27:31.880 if you

01:27:34.300 make

01:27:34.580 somebody

01:27:35.000 laugh

01:27:35.480 about

01:27:35.920 the

01:27:36.140 thing

01:27:36.420 they

01:27:36.820 recognize

01:27:37.300 it

01:27:37.620 and

01:27:37.720 they

01:27:37.860 laugh

01:27:38.240 quite often

01:27:39.180 there's a type

01:27:39.680 of person

01:27:40.060 who will

01:27:40.340 then pull

01:27:41.760 back

01:27:42.140 because they've

01:27:43.380 basically admitted

01:27:44.320 that they also

01:27:45.760 recognize this thing

01:27:46.700 to be true

01:27:47.220 because otherwise

01:27:47.920 they wouldn't have

01:27:48.420 found it funny

01:27:48.920 they wouldn't have

01:27:49.380 been able to

01:27:49.800 laugh about it

01:27:50.540 because laughter

01:27:51.400 wouldn't be the

01:27:51.900 response

01:27:52.300 the response

01:27:52.700 would be discussed

01:27:53.280 quite often

01:27:54.740 they laugh

01:27:55.200 and then they

01:27:55.540 have to

01:27:55.780 feign disgust

01:27:56.520 yeah

01:27:56.720 yeah

01:27:57.000 yeah

01:27:57.300 well it's

01:27:58.000 interesting too

01:27:58.740 there

01:27:58.980 and this points

01:28:00.320 to something

01:28:00.840 like an instinct

01:28:01.580 for the truth

01:28:02.260 because one of the

01:28:03.440 things I was really

01:28:04.120 struck by when I

01:28:04.900 had little kids

01:28:05.520 was how early

01:28:06.300 their sense of humor

01:28:07.500 developed

01:28:07.940 it's ridiculously

01:28:09.440 early

01:28:09.960 like it's there

01:28:10.640 at nine months

01:28:11.480 for sure

01:28:12.000 if you

01:28:12.840 you can coax it

01:28:13.600 out of them

01:28:13.920 but certainly

01:28:14.900 by the time

01:28:15.620 kids are two

01:28:16.700 they're doing

01:28:17.600 ridiculously

01:28:18.240 clowny things 0.65

01:28:19.300 all the time 0.97

01:28:20.120 and that

01:28:22.100 and it struck me

01:28:23.440 because

01:28:23.840 it's pre-linguistic

01:28:25.660 even

01:28:25.980 it's so deep

01:28:26.700 that sense of humor

01:28:27.560 and I do think

01:28:28.440 it's part of

01:28:28.940 the orientation

01:28:29.580 towards truth

01:28:30.380 it's the

01:28:30.900 it's the playful

01:28:31.840 orientation

01:28:32.560 towards truth

01:28:33.400 well that's why

01:28:34.240 I quoted Martin Amis

01:28:35.080 earlier

01:28:35.380 but I mean

01:28:35.720 he famously

01:28:36.920 said once

01:28:37.480 the reason

01:28:38.200 you should be

01:28:38.580 suspicious

01:28:39.020 of people

01:28:39.620 with no sense

01:28:40.240 of humor

01:28:40.560 isn't just

01:28:41.000 that they don't

01:28:41.340 know what's funny

01:28:42.080 but they don't

01:28:42.440 know what's

01:28:42.900 serious either

01:28:43.660 and

01:28:45.100 and that is

01:28:46.380 yeah well

01:28:46.540 the funniest

01:28:47.020 comedians

01:28:47.600 are the ones

01:28:48.100 that can take

01:28:48.680 the most serious

01:28:49.420 thing

01:28:49.740 and make it

01:28:50.160 funny

01:28:50.420 oh yeah

01:28:51.000 absolutely

01:28:51.980 and which is

01:28:53.040 and who dare

01:28:53.580 to do that

01:28:54.140 the Monty Python

01:28:54.840 troupe was great

01:28:55.600 at that

01:28:55.940 yeah

01:28:56.120 and I mean

01:28:56.460 that's why

01:28:57.500 everything

01:28:58.360 you know

01:28:58.660 it's also dangerous

01:29:00.220 to be a comedian

01:29:00.840 in this stage

01:29:01.360 because everyone

01:29:01.740 can take it out

01:29:02.280 of context

01:29:02.720 with Rosanne Barr

01:29:03.760 the other day

01:29:04.240 and pretend

01:29:05.460 that you're doing

01:29:05.920 something you weren't

01:29:06.540 but if

01:29:06.860 in a good faith

01:29:08.280 environment

01:29:09.660 yes

01:29:10.980 these are the

01:29:12.200 people who can

01:29:13.140 point to things

01:29:13.820 we all know

01:29:14.280 to be true

01:29:14.860 we get to laugh

01:29:16.160 at them

01:29:16.620 and with them

01:29:18.340 and this

01:29:20.220 this reveals

01:29:21.800 something very

01:29:22.300 important in our

01:29:22.960 era it seems

01:29:23.540 to me

01:29:23.840 which is

01:29:24.320 the people

01:29:25.340 that you and I

01:29:25.840 spend a certain

01:29:26.420 amount of our

01:29:26.880 lives railing

01:29:27.560 against

01:29:28.080 and we should

01:29:28.680 get on to some

01:29:29.140 positives

01:29:29.480 but the

01:29:30.220 the railing

01:29:31.140 against

01:29:31.460 is in part

01:29:32.800 because they are

01:29:33.520 censorious bullies

01:29:34.700 they want to tell 0.92

01:29:36.060 you and me

01:29:36.760 and everyone else

01:29:38.340 what we should

01:29:39.040 find funny

01:29:39.800 what we should

01:29:40.840 read

01:29:41.360 what we should

01:29:42.020 say

01:29:42.560 what we should

01:29:43.240 think

01:29:43.760 how we should

01:29:44.420 act

01:29:44.920 and

01:29:45.960 in my mind

01:29:47.280 it's an invitation

01:29:49.040 which I decline

01:29:49.880 but

01:29:51.260 in that case

01:29:53.140 these people

01:29:54.680 who are so

01:29:55.320 prim

01:29:55.560 so unfunny

01:29:56.480 so tediously

01:29:58.240 repressive

01:29:58.840 in everything

01:29:59.240 they do

01:29:59.660 don't stand

01:30:00.680 a chance

01:30:01.220 in the long

01:30:01.700 run

01:30:02.000 if 10

01:30:04.020 comedians

01:30:04.720 can take

01:30:05.300 down a

01:30:05.820 million

01:30:06.140 social justice

01:30:08.020 activists

01:30:08.560 and I reckon

01:30:09.760 they can

01:30:10.360 then

01:30:11.120 I'd

01:30:13.500 bet long

01:30:13.920 on the

01:30:14.220 comedians

01:30:14.800 we're going

01:30:16.420 to move

01:30:16.840 very quickly

01:30:17.680 to the

01:30:18.120 Daily Wire

01:30:18.500 plus side

01:30:19.060 and I'll

01:30:19.660 ask you

01:30:20.200 about this

01:30:20.620 about the

01:30:21.000 development

01:30:21.360 of that

01:30:21.780 sense

01:30:22.080 of truth

01:30:22.540 let me

01:30:24.200 see here

01:30:24.700 what else

01:30:25.340 I'd like

01:30:25.660 to ask

01:30:26.080 you about

01:30:26.520 okay

01:30:28.760 so let's

01:30:29.320 go back

01:30:29.640 to what

01:30:29.920 we discussed

01:30:30.420 right at

01:30:30.760 the beginning

01:30:31.160 which is

01:30:31.580 this idea

01:30:32.380 of purpose

01:30:33.120 so

01:30:34.460 you said

01:30:36.720 that

01:30:37.100 meaning

01:30:37.760 gets you

01:30:38.440 somewhere

01:30:38.880 right

01:30:39.440 okay

01:30:39.820 so that

01:30:40.240 I think

01:30:40.840 that's

01:30:41.140 exactly

01:30:41.480 right

01:30:41.780 by the

01:30:42.060 way

01:30:42.280 I

01:30:42.820 called

01:30:43.280 my

01:30:43.460 first

01:30:43.740 book

01:30:44.020 Maps

01:30:44.500 of

01:30:44.680 Meaning

01:30:44.900 because

01:30:45.240 I

01:30:45.500 understood

01:30:46.560 I came

01:30:47.040 to understand

01:30:47.620 that

01:30:47.960 meaning

01:30:48.640 was actually

01:30:49.260 a navigation

01:30:49.860 guide

01:30:50.340 right

01:30:51.200 and I

01:30:53.100 actually

01:30:53.360 think that's

01:30:54.360 technically

01:30:54.760 true

01:30:55.140 because

01:30:55.520 meaning

01:30:56.740 manifests

01:30:57.800 itself

01:30:58.240 as the

01:30:58.600 instinct

01:30:58.960 that tells

01:30:59.600 you

01:30:59.880 that you're

01:31:00.660 on the

01:31:00.960 path

01:31:01.300 to the

01:31:01.620 proper

01:31:01.880 goal

01:31:02.200 yes

01:31:02.700 yes

01:31:02.740 I say

01:31:03.320 you can

01:31:05.660 orient

01:31:05.900 yourself

01:31:06.320 by seeing

01:31:06.840 the

01:31:07.000 flares

01:31:07.260 on the

01:31:07.580 path

01:31:08.000 yes

01:31:08.800 yes

01:31:09.420 yes

01:31:09.960 well that

01:31:10.340 and that's

01:31:10.680 part of

01:31:10.980 the idea

01:31:11.440 of a

01:31:12.440 calling

01:31:12.880 by the

01:31:13.780 way

01:31:14.020 it's also

01:31:14.860 part of

01:31:15.360 the

01:31:15.580 fact

01:31:16.540 and this

01:31:16.840 is an

01:31:17.080 interesting

01:31:17.420 fact

01:31:17.800 that

01:31:18.020 people

01:31:18.680 are beset

01:31:19.720 with

01:31:20.160 their own

01:31:21.580 particularized

01:31:23.060 problems

01:31:23.700 you know

01:31:24.800 so

01:31:25.280 I learned

01:31:26.900 in the

01:31:27.420 Exodus

01:31:27.940 seminar

01:31:28.400 that I

01:31:28.780 ran a

01:31:29.080 while back

01:31:29.580 you know

01:31:29.780 when the

01:31:30.020 Israelites 0.94

01:31:30.320 are lost

01:31:30.760 in the

01:31:31.020 desert

01:31:31.340 God

01:31:32.040 appears

01:31:32.380 to them

01:31:32.680 as a

01:31:33.000 pillar of

01:31:33.440 light

01:31:33.740 during the

01:31:34.220 day

01:31:34.500 and a

01:31:35.200 pillar of

01:31:36.660 darkness

01:31:37.380 during the

01:31:38.000 day

01:31:38.160 and a

01:31:38.400 pillar of

01:31:38.740 light

01:31:39.160 at night

01:31:39.940 and Jonathan

01:31:40.740 Paggio

01:31:41.260 made the

01:31:42.480 claim that

01:31:42.860 that was

01:31:43.160 the same

01:31:43.520 idea as

01:31:44.020 the

01:31:44.200 idea in

01:31:45.500 Taoism

01:31:46.060 and that

01:31:46.540 there's

01:31:46.900 this

01:31:47.140 tension

01:31:47.580 of

01:31:47.800 opposites

01:31:48.360 that

01:31:48.600 guides

01:31:49.000 you

01:31:49.320 and

01:31:50.460 here's

01:31:50.900 a way

01:31:51.120 of

01:31:51.260 thinking

01:31:51.480 about

01:31:51.780 it

01:31:51.940 is

01:31:52.100 that

01:31:52.320 you'll

01:31:53.200 find a

01:31:53.520 calling

01:31:53.820 in your

01:31:54.140 life

01:31:54.500 and things

01:31:55.440 will

01:31:55.620 beckon

01:31:55.960 to you

01:31:56.240 as

01:31:56.360 opportunities

01:31:56.940 now

01:31:57.260 not

01:31:57.500 everything

01:31:57.900 beckons

01:31:58.400 to you

01:31:58.740 as an

01:31:59.000 opportunity

01:31:59.420 but some

01:32:00.800 things do

01:32:01.400 and that's

01:32:02.380 the positive

01:32:02.860 side

01:32:03.180 that would

01:32:03.500 be the

01:32:03.760 light

01:32:03.980 let's say

01:32:04.460 in the

01:32:04.660 darkness

01:32:05.000 on the

01:32:06.120 negative

01:32:06.440 side

01:32:06.900 there's

01:32:07.760 going to

01:32:08.040 be things

01:32:08.480 that

01:32:08.780 aggregate

01:32:09.760 around you

01:32:10.880 as your

01:32:11.380 problems

01:32:12.000 right

01:32:12.620 and there

01:32:12.820 are things

01:32:13.100 that bug

01:32:13.460 you

01:32:13.660 and God

01:32:14.300 only knows

01:32:14.760 why those

01:32:15.460 things bug

01:32:15.920 you

01:32:16.040 because there's

01:32:16.420 a trillion

01:32:16.900 things that

01:32:17.640 could

01:32:17.980 but some

01:32:18.800 things really

01:32:19.360 grip you

01:32:20.120 and won't

01:32:20.460 let you

01:32:20.820 go

01:32:21.140 right

01:32:21.440 and you

01:32:22.400 could think

01:32:22.740 about the

01:32:23.100 interaction

01:32:23.660 between

01:32:24.080 opportunity

01:32:24.640 and

01:32:25.220 problem

01:32:25.980 as

01:32:26.600 something

01:32:26.900 like

01:32:27.280 calling

01:32:27.940 right

01:32:28.660 and then

01:32:29.180 the

01:32:29.640 truthful

01:32:30.100 grappling

01:32:30.660 with

01:32:31.240 that

01:32:31.620 produces

01:32:32.480 that

01:32:33.040 not only

01:32:33.680 a sense

01:32:34.220 of meaning

01:32:34.680 because you're

01:32:35.100 taking your

01:32:35.540 responsibilities

01:32:36.080 seriously

01:32:36.820 and taking

01:32:37.920 advantage of

01:32:38.600 your opportunities

01:32:39.280 but it also

01:32:40.340 propels you

01:32:40.960 down the

01:32:41.280 appropriate

01:32:41.640 developmental

01:32:42.120 path

01:32:42.520 because if

01:32:43.040 you take

01:32:43.780 on the

01:32:44.200 problems

01:32:44.700 that beset

01:32:45.960 you

01:32:46.180 that are

01:32:46.520 yours

01:32:46.820 you'll

01:32:47.160 develop

01:32:47.500 and if

01:32:47.900 you exploit

01:32:48.580 the

01:32:48.740 opportunities

01:32:49.180 that present

01:32:49.780 themselves

01:32:50.140 you'll

01:32:50.380 develop

01:32:50.680 as well

01:32:51.160 yeah

01:32:51.480 I am

01:32:52.100 I mean

01:32:53.060 drive

01:32:53.460 is

01:32:54.660 something

01:32:55.800 that fascinates

01:32:56.360 me

01:32:56.560 because

01:32:56.980 there's a

01:32:57.540 sort of

01:32:57.780 presumption

01:32:58.280 that people

01:32:58.840 either have

01:32:59.260 it or they

01:32:59.600 don't

01:32:59.980 that is

01:33:01.300 the case

01:33:01.720 to some

01:33:02.120 degree

01:33:02.460 there are

01:33:03.780 certainly

01:33:03.980 very driven

01:33:04.600 people

01:33:05.060 and there are

01:33:05.400 all sorts

01:33:05.660 of reasons

01:33:05.940 we know

01:33:06.300 why some

01:33:07.140 people are

01:33:07.560 driven

01:33:08.120 from an

01:33:08.760 early age

01:33:09.320 and why

01:33:09.840 that might

01:33:10.180 be

01:33:10.360 but I'm

01:33:10.960 struck by

01:33:11.440 this lack

01:33:11.900 of talking

01:33:12.420 about vocation

01:33:13.220 in our era

01:33:13.660 I don't know

01:33:14.120 if it's

01:33:14.860 because people

01:33:15.680 are embarrassed

01:33:16.160 about it

01:33:16.780 some people

01:33:17.260 undoubtedly

01:33:17.740 are

01:33:18.220 or whether

01:33:20.100 it's just

01:33:20.460 that we don't

01:33:20.920 particularly

01:33:21.300 encourage it

01:33:22.180 it's probably

01:33:24.000 a combination

01:33:24.520 of all of

01:33:25.140 these things

01:33:25.580 plus a sort

01:33:26.220 of sense

01:33:26.620 that there's

01:33:27.620 no particular

01:33:28.160 meaning

01:33:28.600 so why bother

01:33:29.520 you know

01:33:30.160 everything's been

01:33:31.940 shown to be

01:33:32.560 flawed

01:33:33.000 so

01:33:33.520 all ambition

01:33:34.360 is pathological

01:33:35.320 and destructive

01:33:36.000 yes

01:33:36.780 and

01:33:37.360 there's

01:33:38.340 different ways

01:33:38.960 of

01:33:40.260 passing it

01:33:42.060 but

01:33:42.280 I've always

01:33:44.400 been struck

01:33:44.760 by something

01:33:45.080 Alan Bloom

01:33:45.620 said in one

01:33:46.320 of the

01:33:46.600 early parts

01:33:47.660 of the

01:33:47.820 closing the

01:33:48.200 American

01:33:48.440 mind

01:33:48.780 he said

01:33:49.320 and he said

01:33:50.140 even then

01:33:50.500 in the 80s

01:33:51.060 it concerned

01:33:51.680 him

01:33:51.940 that he

01:33:52.260 said

01:33:52.500 we know

01:33:53.120 what a

01:33:53.400 beautiful

01:33:54.260 body

01:33:54.780 would be

01:33:55.240 like

01:33:55.480 we don't

01:33:55.940 any longer

01:33:56.400 know

01:33:56.600 what a

01:33:56.820 beautiful

01:33:57.020 soul

01:33:57.480 would be

01:33:57.840 like

01:33:58.060 and

01:33:59.200 although

01:33:59.800 that's

01:34:00.100 a rather

01:34:00.360 high

01:34:00.820 way

01:34:01.720 of

01:34:01.920 saying

01:34:02.340 it

01:34:02.700 I would

01:34:04.100 say

01:34:04.220 we don't

01:34:04.740 know

01:34:04.900 what a

01:34:05.240 we haven't

01:34:06.940 agreed

01:34:07.200 what a

01:34:07.480 meaningful

01:34:07.760 life

01:34:08.260 would be

01:34:08.780 really

01:34:09.160 and I

01:34:10.140 once asked

01:34:10.700 a sociologist

01:34:11.400 friend about

01:34:11.920 this

01:34:12.140 I said

01:34:12.420 what do

01:34:12.940 you think

01:34:13.260 in your

01:34:13.520 life

01:34:13.760 has been

01:34:14.060 the biggest

01:34:14.380 change

01:34:14.780 and he

01:34:15.080 said

01:34:15.380 I think

01:34:16.440 the biggest

01:34:16.720 change

01:34:16.980 in my

01:34:17.240 life

01:34:17.500 is that

01:34:17.780 if you

01:34:18.080 were a

01:34:19.040 man who

01:34:19.460 provided

01:34:19.900 for your

01:34:20.320 family

01:34:20.880 and your

01:34:21.440 dependents

01:34:21.960 whatever your

01:34:22.520 job

01:34:22.940 you were a

01:34:23.960 man of

01:34:24.300 dignity

01:34:24.780 and that

01:34:26.420 isn't the

01:34:26.800 case anymore

01:34:27.560 you know

01:34:28.060 you can

01:34:28.640 work very

01:34:29.360 hard for

01:34:30.020 people who

01:34:30.400 are your

01:34:30.600 dependents

01:34:31.220 or someone

01:34:32.160 else's

01:34:32.500 dependents

01:34:32.960 but you're 0.93

01:34:33.380 the mug

01:34:33.840 so there's

01:34:35.860 a lot of

01:34:36.280 sort of

01:34:37.180 demoralization

01:34:38.140 around that

01:34:38.840 I think

01:34:39.240 and I'm

01:34:41.640 very keen

01:34:42.420 that we

01:34:42.840 as it

01:34:43.160 were

01:34:43.520 without saying

01:34:45.620 being moralistic

01:34:46.540 we rectify

01:34:47.580 the

01:34:47.820 demoralization

01:34:48.600 you know

01:34:49.220 we

01:34:49.600 we did

01:34:51.100 a series

01:34:51.800 of studies

01:34:52.440 on vision

01:34:53.580 development

01:34:54.100 I built

01:34:55.820 this program

01:34:56.420 with some

01:34:56.900 colleagues of

01:34:57.400 mine to

01:34:57.760 help people

01:34:58.240 develop a

01:34:58.800 vision

01:34:59.020 and the

01:35:01.000 first part

01:35:01.480 of the

01:35:01.760 exercise

01:35:02.220 is that

01:35:02.840 you

01:35:03.120 contemplate

01:35:04.720 yourself

01:35:05.060 five years

01:35:05.580 in the

01:35:05.820 future

01:35:06.140 yes

01:35:06.600 and then

01:35:07.280 you

01:35:07.540 adopt

01:35:08.200 an

01:35:08.440 attitude

01:35:08.880 of

01:35:09.260 appropriate

01:35:09.900 respect

01:35:10.560 for

01:35:10.820 yourself

01:35:11.180 so you

01:35:11.700 try to

01:35:11.960 put

01:35:12.100 yourself

01:35:12.480 people

01:35:13.240 don't

01:35:13.620 necessarily

01:35:14.220 want

01:35:15.540 the best

01:35:16.200 for

01:35:16.400 themselves

01:35:16.760 or think

01:35:17.300 they deserve

01:35:17.920 it

01:35:18.200 and so

01:35:19.360 it's

01:35:20.240 useful

01:35:20.820 to

01:35:21.280 entice

01:35:22.640 people

01:35:23.000 into

01:35:23.320 giving

01:35:23.620 themselves

01:35:24.040 the benefit

01:35:24.600 of the

01:35:24.940 doubt

01:35:25.160 for a

01:35:25.560 moment

01:35:25.800 and letting

01:35:26.400 them

01:35:26.700 contemplate

01:35:27.660 the notion

01:35:28.200 that it

01:35:28.540 might be

01:35:28.920 okay

01:35:29.200 if they

01:35:29.560 were

01:35:29.720 successful

01:35:30.280 and then

01:35:31.120 the next

01:35:31.480 part of

01:35:31.780 the exercise

01:35:32.240 is

01:35:32.640 write for

01:35:33.560 15 minutes

01:35:34.260 about what

01:35:34.800 you could

01:35:35.100 have

01:35:35.340 and who

01:35:35.600 you would

01:35:35.900 be

01:35:36.180 if you

01:35:36.940 could

01:35:37.060 have

01:35:37.320 what

01:35:37.460 you

01:35:37.600 needed

01:35:37.840 if you

01:35:38.160 were

01:35:38.280 treating

01:35:38.520 yourself

01:35:38.920 properly

01:35:39.380 and if

01:35:39.700 you

01:35:39.820 were

01:35:39.940 the

01:35:40.080 person

01:35:40.340 you

01:35:40.520 want

01:35:40.700 to

01:35:40.800 be

01:35:41.040 just

01:35:41.480 write

01:35:41.740 it

01:35:41.880 down

01:35:42.220 just

01:35:46.760 imagine

01:35:46.880 that

01:35:47.120 your 1.00

01:35:47.380 idiocy 1.00

01:35:47.820 took 0.97

01:35:48.140 the

01:35:48.320 upper

01:35:48.500 hand

01:35:48.780 and

01:35:48.940 that

01:35:49.100 you

01:35:49.320 created

01:35:49.800 your

01:35:50.040 own

01:35:50.280 particularized

01:35:51.020 hell

01:35:51.380 out of 0.93

01:35:52.080 your 1.00

01:35:52.240 stupidity 1.00

01:35:52.900 what would 1.00

01:35:53.600 that look

01:35:54.060 like

01:35:54.420 or now

01:35:55.420 you've got

01:35:55.840 polls

01:35:56.320 right

01:35:56.660 it's like

01:35:57.080 not there

01:35:58.040 that would

01:35:59.060 be better

01:35:59.560 then we

01:36:00.240 have them

01:36:00.580 break

01:36:00.840 the

01:36:01.580 positive

01:36:02.180 vision

01:36:02.500 down

01:36:02.760 into

01:36:03.000 seven

01:36:03.460 sub

01:36:03.860 elements

01:36:04.300 family

01:36:04.860 friendships

01:36:05.440 career

01:36:06.120 etc

01:36:06.520 and say

01:36:06.940 just

01:36:07.520 make a

01:36:07.960 plan

01:36:08.280 yeah

01:36:08.700 right

01:36:09.080 so we

01:36:09.520 gave this

01:36:10.140 to

01:36:10.480 college

01:36:10.900 students

01:36:11.380 in three

01:36:12.120 different

01:36:12.400 campuses

01:36:12.880 50%

01:36:14.660 decrease

01:36:15.280 in drop

01:36:15.720 out

01:36:15.980 this is

01:36:16.400 with a

01:36:16.680 90

01:36:16.940 minute

01:36:17.200 exercise

01:36:18.240 particularly

01:36:19.040 effective

01:36:19.760 for

01:36:20.580 young

01:36:21.220 minority

01:36:21.840 men

01:36:22.300 who

01:36:22.560 had

01:36:22.840 poor

01:36:23.300 academic

01:36:23.880 backgrounds

01:36:24.480 yeah

01:36:25.060 no kidding

01:36:25.640 and a

01:36:26.240 35%

01:36:27.000 increment

01:36:27.520 in grade

01:36:27.980 point

01:36:28.280 average

01:36:28.960 yeah

01:36:30.340 yeah

01:36:30.640 well so

01:36:31.000 that's

01:36:31.340 that's

01:36:31.880 part of

01:36:32.220 that

01:36:32.440 that

01:36:32.840 conjuring

01:36:33.620 up a

01:36:33.940 vision

01:36:34.200 and we're

01:36:34.580 trying to

01:36:34.900 do that

01:36:35.160 you know

01:36:35.520 this

01:36:35.700 because

01:36:35.860 you're

01:36:36.020 involved

01:36:36.320 in this

01:36:36.600 art

01:36:36.780 project

01:36:37.200 in the

01:36:37.860 UK

01:36:38.080 we're

01:36:38.380 trying

01:36:38.580 to do

01:36:38.820 that

01:36:39.040 on a

01:36:39.260 more

01:36:39.460 international

01:36:40.300 scale

01:36:40.780 even though

01:36:41.440 there's

01:36:41.700 perils

01:36:42.060 to that

01:36:42.440 and that's

01:36:42.840 partly

01:36:43.160 well

01:36:43.440 how could

01:36:44.080 we formulate

01:36:46.400 an invitational

01:36:47.920 instead of

01:36:48.840 fear-based

01:36:49.900 and

01:36:50.300 what's

01:36:52.160 serving the

01:36:52.880 demented

01:36:53.580 interests

01:36:54.180 of power

01:36:54.860 mongers 1.00

01:36:55.380 how about

01:36:55.820 that

01:36:56.580 yeah

01:36:56.940 or the

01:36:57.680 one I

01:36:58.520 dislike

01:36:59.380 the most

01:36:59.820 which is

01:37:00.240 I think you and I

01:37:01.280 have talked about it before

01:37:01.940 when

01:37:03.060 the last time

01:37:04.540 Roger Scruton

01:37:05.180 appeared in public

01:37:06.120 we did a discussion

01:37:07.000 together

01:37:07.420 just a few months

01:37:08.380 before he died

01:37:08.880 and we

01:37:10.040 got talking about

01:37:10.960 this strange way

01:37:11.940 in which the era

01:37:12.880 wishes you

01:37:14.080 just to be

01:37:14.980 harmless

01:37:15.460 right

01:37:16.500 to come in

01:37:17.220 and out

01:37:17.620 and not be

01:37:18.080 noticed

01:37:18.620 yeah

01:37:19.020 which is so

01:37:20.680 preposterous

01:37:22.280 to me

01:37:22.620 if all

01:37:23.980 ambition

01:37:24.440 is

01:37:25.060 pathological

01:37:26.000 then harmless

01:37:26.660 is the only

01:37:27.480 virtue

01:37:27.560 yes

01:37:27.620 and all you're

01:37:28.020 doing is emitting

01:37:28.700 carbon

01:37:29.240 yeah

01:37:29.560 if it weren't

01:37:30.320 for you 1.00

01:37:30.620 the damn 1.00

01:37:31.080 moss and 1.00

01:37:31.480 trees would

01:37:31.880 be getting

01:37:32.200 on just

01:37:32.640 fine

01:37:33.080 yeah

01:37:33.460 you just

01:37:34.640 pull everyone's

01:37:35.360 teeth out

01:37:35.860 and wrap

01:37:36.860 them up

01:37:37.200 in styrofoam

01:37:37.840 and set

01:37:38.180 them in a

01:37:38.520 corner

01:37:38.740 and the

01:37:39.120 planet

01:37:39.340 would get

01:37:39.700 along

01:37:39.920 just

01:37:40.220 fine

01:37:40.700 exactly

01:37:42.360 human beings

01:37:43.320 are the 0.99

01:37:43.560 problem

01:37:43.940 in fact

01:37:45.140 we're the

01:37:45.600 point

01:37:46.100 well you know

01:37:49.460 douglas that's

01:37:50.180 probably a good

01:37:50.700 that's a good

01:37:51.400 that's probably a

01:37:52.060 good place to

01:37:52.840 end

01:37:53.080 oh there was one

01:37:53.880 other thing we

01:37:54.340 were going to

01:37:54.740 talk about

01:37:55.100 this is relevant

01:37:55.700 to vocation

01:37:56.380 as well

01:37:56.840 barry weiss

01:37:58.120 invited you to

01:37:59.220 contribute to

01:38:00.020 her new

01:38:00.440 enterprise

01:38:00.900 and you

01:38:01.780 decided to do

01:38:02.540 that in a

01:38:03.120 particular way

01:38:03.600 you're already

01:38:04.100 writing columns

01:38:04.880 and so you

01:38:05.460 weren't particularly

01:38:06.140 interested in

01:38:06.860 doing more of

01:38:07.420 that

01:38:07.740 having been

01:38:09.060 doing enough

01:38:09.560 of it

01:38:09.820 what are you

01:38:10.420 doing with

01:38:10.840 barry

01:38:11.140 it was a

01:38:11.920 brilliant idea

01:38:12.520 of hers

01:38:12.860 she wanted me

01:38:13.440 to do a

01:38:13.700 column for the

01:38:14.140 free press

01:38:14.840 and I

01:38:15.600 said well

01:38:15.960 I'm sort

01:38:16.320 of columned

01:38:17.000 up

01:38:17.240 I write

01:38:18.220 about three

01:38:18.600 or four

01:38:18.820 columns a

01:38:19.240 week

01:38:19.440 on various

01:38:21.500 issues of

01:38:21.980 the day

01:38:22.360 and she

01:38:23.840 said well I

01:38:24.200 want you to

01:38:24.480 write about

01:38:24.720 something else

01:38:25.280 and I

01:38:25.840 said well

01:38:27.820 look I've

01:38:28.300 always tried to

01:38:28.780 have a deal

01:38:29.160 with my

01:38:29.480 editors

01:38:29.780 I write

01:38:30.200 about

01:38:30.380 something I

01:38:30.780 love for

01:38:31.840 every piece

01:38:32.420 about something

01:38:32.980 or someone

01:38:33.440 I hate

01:38:34.100 and actually

01:38:35.400 the equilibrium

01:38:38.000 has never

01:38:38.480 been quite

01:38:39.040 right

01:38:39.480 on that

01:38:39.980 there's

01:38:41.580 much more

01:38:43.000 news coverage

01:38:43.900 in the

01:38:44.300 things that

01:38:44.700 annoy you

01:38:45.280 but nevertheless

01:38:47.080 I do try to

01:38:47.800 write about

01:38:48.100 things I love

01:38:48.640 and it was

01:38:50.020 Barry's idea

01:38:50.580 she said

01:38:50.960 well look

01:38:51.220 whenever I'm

01:38:51.620 on a stage

01:38:52.000 with you

01:38:52.240 you always

01:38:52.580 seem to have

01:38:53.040 things you

01:38:53.360 can pluck

01:38:53.960 out of the

01:38:54.260 air

01:38:54.380 quotes

01:38:54.760 you know

01:38:55.280 from things

01:38:55.700 why don't

01:38:56.460 you just

01:38:56.740 explain why

01:38:57.280 you got

01:38:57.760 them in

01:38:58.020 your head

01:38:58.360 and where

01:38:58.780 they're from

01:38:59.200 and why

01:38:59.720 you think

01:39:00.080 they're worth

01:39:00.480 having that

01:39:01.120 and so

01:39:02.540 we came up

01:39:03.320 with this

01:39:03.520 idea

01:39:03.840 and every

01:39:04.320 week I write

01:39:04.880 a column

01:39:05.280 about a

01:39:05.760 poem I

01:39:06.160 have by

01:39:06.540 heart

01:39:06.880 sometimes it's

01:39:08.340 a longish

01:39:08.860 poem

01:39:09.180 sometimes it's

01:39:10.060 a few

01:39:10.640 lines

01:39:11.120 and really

01:39:13.040 it's about

01:39:13.480 why it's

01:39:14.740 up there

01:39:15.860 how much

01:39:16.520 poetry do

01:39:17.120 you know

01:39:17.380 by heart

01:39:17.920 well I'm

01:39:19.120 doing 50

01:39:19.820 poems

01:39:20.380 for this

01:39:22.400 year

01:39:22.780 ranging

01:39:25.260 from

01:39:25.980 well I

01:39:28.200 mean it's

01:39:28.840 mainly within

01:39:29.600 what you'd

01:39:30.080 think of

01:39:30.480 as the

01:39:30.840 classical

01:39:31.520 canon

01:39:32.060 why did

01:39:33.780 you start

01:39:34.720 doing that

01:39:35.320 well there's

01:39:36.480 several reasons

01:39:37.120 one is

01:39:38.860 if there's

01:39:39.980 something I

01:39:40.400 read which

01:39:41.480 hits me

01:39:43.060 in the 0.61

01:39:43.780 solar plexus

01:39:44.580 I want it

01:39:45.680 up there

01:39:46.240 that's a

01:39:48.120 very strong

01:39:48.800 I think

01:39:49.320 oh I need

01:39:49.780 that

01:39:50.420 do you know

01:39:51.440 why you

01:39:51.900 need it

01:39:52.300 well then

01:39:52.940 there's that

01:39:53.640 the answer

01:39:54.700 to that

01:39:55.180 is

01:39:55.480 and I

01:39:56.080 actually

01:39:56.220 addressed

01:39:56.480 this in

01:39:56.840 one of

01:39:57.040 the opening

01:39:57.360 columns

01:39:58.020 there were

01:39:59.820 several

01:40:00.060 people

01:40:00.280 who made

01:40:00.500 a great

01:40:00.720 impression

01:40:01.060 on me

01:40:01.320 when I

01:40:01.540 was

01:40:01.620 growing up

01:40:01.960 one was

01:40:02.320 a sermon

01:40:02.700 I heard

01:40:03.080 from Terry

01:40:03.660 Waite

01:40:03.940 who was a

01:40:04.380 captive in

01:40:05.040 Lebanon

01:40:06.040 in the 80s

01:40:06.840 he was taken

01:40:07.920 hostage

01:40:08.500 after being the

01:40:11.420 emissary of the

01:40:11.900 Archbishop of

01:40:12.600 Canterbury

01:40:12.940 and I heard him

01:40:13.480 give a sermon

01:40:14.620 as a schoolboy

01:40:15.280 where he talked

01:40:16.160 about when he

01:40:16.880 was chained to

01:40:17.680 a Beirut

01:40:18.360 radiator for about

01:40:19.380 five years

01:40:20.480 one of the

01:40:23.900 things that

01:40:24.340 made it

01:40:25.080 bearable

01:40:25.940 was that

01:40:26.440 he had

01:40:26.820 four quartets

01:40:27.580 by T.S.

01:40:28.180 Eliot in his

01:40:28.740 head

01:40:29.060 and he

01:40:31.020 recited the

01:40:32.560 opening

01:40:33.040 time present

01:40:35.240 and time past

01:40:35.960 both perhaps

01:40:36.540 contained in

01:40:37.120 time future

01:40:37.740 and he did

01:40:39.020 that whole

01:40:39.860 opening

01:40:40.420 which culminates

01:40:42.420 in that great

01:40:42.880 footfalls echo

01:40:43.600 in the memory

01:40:44.240 down the passage

01:40:45.120 which we did

01:40:45.680 not take

01:40:46.460 through the

01:40:47.240 door we never

01:40:47.720 opened into

01:40:48.260 the rose

01:40:48.600 garden

01:40:48.940 and

01:40:51.200 when he

01:40:52.300 there was

01:40:52.780 something

01:40:52.980 immediately

01:40:53.500 struck me

01:40:53.980 I immediately

01:40:54.500 went back

01:40:55.000 to my room

01:40:55.520 and got

01:40:56.520 my Eliot

01:40:56.960 off the

01:40:57.480 shelf

01:40:58.460 and finally

01:40:58.960 understood

01:40:59.540 Eliot

01:41:00.500 or began

01:41:01.660 to understand

01:41:02.200 Eliot

01:41:02.440 for the first

01:41:02.860 time

01:41:03.060 but the

01:41:03.900 other thing

01:41:04.320 was

01:41:04.700 and I

01:41:06.020 wrote this

01:41:06.380 recently

01:41:06.720 in a column

01:41:08.380 about an

01:41:09.620 extraordinary

01:41:10.240 Russian woman 0.82

01:41:11.540 who should 0.92

01:41:12.160 be better

01:41:13.220 known

01:41:13.640 called

01:41:14.380 Tatiana

01:41:14.840 Gnedich

01:41:15.460 now she

01:41:16.340 was a

01:41:16.740 woman 0.99

01:41:16.920 I tell

01:41:17.260 the story

01:41:17.640 in the

01:41:17.840 piece

01:41:18.080 and I've

01:41:18.500 only seen

01:41:18.920 it in

01:41:19.180 one other

01:41:19.540 English

01:41:19.960 version

01:41:21.920 she was

01:41:23.280 a woman 0.57

01:41:23.940 who studied

01:41:25.240 English

01:41:25.620 literature

01:41:26.040 in St

01:41:26.680 Petersburg

01:41:27.040 in the

01:41:28.280 1930s

01:41:28.900 and 40s

01:41:30.080 in the

01:41:31.120 height of

01:41:32.520 the terrors

01:41:33.060 she was

01:41:34.820 actually denounced

01:41:35.680 at her

01:41:36.020 university

01:41:36.500 because one

01:41:37.060 of her

01:41:37.360 forebears

01:41:37.920 had

01:41:38.260 translated

01:41:38.980 I think

01:41:39.960 it was

01:41:40.300 Ovid

01:41:40.880 into Russian

01:41:42.100 and she

01:41:43.060 was very

01:41:43.320 proud of

01:41:43.760 this

01:41:43.900 forebear

01:41:44.200 but somebody

01:41:44.860 denounced

01:41:45.240 her as 0.54

01:41:45.520 having

01:41:45.720 noble

01:41:46.120 lineage

01:41:46.660 so she

01:41:47.780 was

01:41:47.960 denounced

01:41:48.420 and thrown

01:41:48.880 out of

01:41:49.160 the

01:41:49.240 university

01:41:49.640 she was

01:41:50.240 eventually

01:41:50.600 allowed

01:41:50.920 back

01:41:51.220 in

01:41:51.520 and to

01:41:53.080 cut a

01:41:53.280 long story

01:41:53.680 short

01:41:54.100 but it's

01:41:54.500 an amazing

01:41:54.860 story

01:41:55.260 she

01:41:55.740 ended up

01:41:58.900 after she

01:41:59.540 was at the

01:41:59.860 siege of

01:42:00.160 St.

01:42:00.360 Petersburg

01:42:00.620 her house

01:42:01.300 was burned

01:42:01.680 down and her 0.59

01:42:02.160 mother was

01:42:02.680 killed

01:42:03.400 in about

01:42:04.500 1944 or so

01:42:05.440 she handed

01:42:05.920 herself into

01:42:06.560 the authority

01:42:06.920 she'd got it

01:42:07.520 into her head

01:42:08.100 that wanting

01:42:08.600 to go to

01:42:09.240 England

01:42:09.560 constituted

01:42:10.620 activity

01:42:11.740 against the

01:42:12.340 state

01:42:12.660 that was how

01:42:13.920 bad it was

01:42:14.640 the sense

01:42:15.560 that you were

01:42:16.000 doing wrong

01:42:16.540 it's like

01:42:17.280 trying to

01:42:17.600 leave

01:42:17.760 California

01:42:18.300 right

01:42:19.160 she handed

01:42:21.240 herself in

01:42:22.080 and she was

01:42:23.140 given straight

01:42:23.600 away 10

01:42:24.000 years in

01:42:24.340 Gulag

01:42:24.780 and she

01:42:26.720 on the night

01:42:27.500 she was at

01:42:27.860 the holding

01:42:28.240 prison

01:42:28.660 she was told

01:42:29.880 by the

01:42:30.220 guard

01:42:30.640 you know

01:42:32.460 there are

01:42:32.780 books in

01:42:33.280 the prison

01:42:33.540 before you're

01:42:33.960 taken to

01:42:34.300 Gulag

01:42:34.740 and you

01:42:35.640 could

01:42:35.840 you know

01:42:36.900 and she

01:42:38.000 said shut 0.99

01:42:38.580 up I'm 0.99

01:42:39.000 working

01:42:39.480 and he

01:42:40.680 said what

01:42:40.920 are you

01:42:41.080 working on

01:42:41.720 she said I'm

01:42:42.300 translating

01:42:42.820 Don

01:42:43.220 June

01:42:43.520 of Lord

01:42:44.820 Byron's

01:42:45.580 in my

01:42:46.160 head

01:42:46.520 now the

01:42:48.020 poem is

01:42:48.340 17,000

01:42:49.200 words long

01:42:49.840 17,000

01:42:50.860 lines long

01:42:51.680 and he

01:42:53.520 said okay

01:42:54.300 I'll give

01:42:54.660 you a piece

01:42:54.940 of paper

01:42:55.280 and a pen

01:42:55.820 and I'll

01:42:56.280 come back

01:42:56.620 in the

01:42:56.840 morning

01:42:57.120 and when

01:42:57.900 he came

01:42:58.180 back in

01:42:58.480 the morning

01:42:58.840 she had

01:42:59.480 translated

01:43:00.220 into Russian

01:43:00.920 all of

01:43:02.040 the canto

01:43:02.580 in which

01:43:03.060 Don

01:43:03.400 June

01:43:03.560 goes

01:43:03.940 through

01:43:04.280 Moscow

01:43:04.680 and he

01:43:06.280 laughed

01:43:06.880 uproariously

01:43:07.720 at the

01:43:07.940 brilliance

01:43:08.340 of this

01:43:08.600 translation

01:43:09.100 the humour

01:43:10.040 of Lord

01:43:10.380 Byron

01:43:10.700 that she

01:43:10.960 had exactly

01:43:11.600 done

01:43:11.900 in Russian

01:43:13.280 in the

01:43:13.640 same rhyme

01:43:14.060 scheme

01:43:14.380 that very

01:43:15.820 complicated

01:43:16.460 rhyme scheme

01:43:16.960 that Byron

01:43:17.360 uses in

01:43:17.820 the English

01:43:18.120 original

01:43:18.400 so he

01:43:19.500 said if

01:43:20.380 I keep

01:43:20.720 giving you

01:43:21.060 paper you

01:43:21.460 can think

01:43:22.160 you can

01:43:22.420 finish it

01:43:22.820 she said

01:43:23.140 yes

01:43:23.440 it took

01:43:24.140 her two

01:43:24.540 years and

01:43:25.100 she was

01:43:25.320 in a cell

01:43:25.740 on her

01:43:26.080 own and

01:43:26.540 they gave

01:43:26.820 her the

01:43:27.000 paper

01:43:27.180 at the

01:43:27.600 end

01:43:27.920 the guard

01:43:29.860 allowed

01:43:30.280 three copies

01:43:31.440 to be

01:43:31.700 typed up

01:43:32.100 and gave

01:43:32.400 her one

01:43:32.780 then sent

01:43:33.240 her to 0.94

01:43:33.540 Gulag

01:43:33.940 for the

01:43:34.220 next

01:43:34.400 eight

01:43:34.620 years

01:43:34.980 and she

01:43:35.340 completed

01:43:35.680 her

01:43:35.900 sentence

01:43:36.280 and when

01:43:37.360 she came

01:43:37.760 out of

01:43:38.080 the

01:43:38.200 Gulag

01:43:38.620 she had

01:43:40.240 her pile

01:43:40.920 of papers

01:43:41.360 and she

01:43:41.640 went to

01:43:41.880 a friend's

01:43:42.280 house

01:43:42.580 and there

01:43:42.820 was an

01:43:42.980 apartment

01:43:43.360 and five

01:43:43.960 people were

01:43:44.380 living in

01:43:44.680 the room

01:43:44.960 and she

01:43:45.280 joined them

01:43:45.820 and she 0.97

01:43:46.660 stank of 0.99

01:43:47.160 the Gulag

01:43:47.620 by all

01:43:48.040 accounts

01:43:48.540 as did

01:43:49.280 her manuscript

01:43:49.840 but she

01:43:50.720 then typed

01:43:51.220 it up again

01:43:51.680 with the

01:43:51.900 revision she

01:43:52.420 had made

01:43:52.680 in the

01:43:52.860 Gulag

01:43:53.200 it was

01:43:54.340 subsequently

01:43:54.720 published

01:43:55.180 and it is

01:43:55.660 still to

01:43:56.020 this day

01:43:56.380 the standard

01:43:56.900 translation of

01:43:57.680 Byron in

01:43:58.360 the Russian

01:43:58.840 language

01:43:59.320 some people

01:44:00.660 man

01:44:01.000 and

01:44:01.620 some people

01:44:02.920 yeah

01:44:03.400 and it was

01:44:04.160 actually put

01:44:04.780 on stage

01:44:05.340 was a

01:44:05.660 massive

01:44:05.940 hit

01:44:06.280 within

01:44:06.540 her

01:44:06.740 lifetime

01:44:07.160 so she

01:44:08.520 went from

01:44:09.380 she had a

01:44:10.780 heart attack

01:44:11.200 on the first

01:44:11.620 night

01:44:11.860 which she

01:44:12.220 fortunately

01:44:12.540 survived

01:44:13.140 but

01:44:13.920 I tell

01:44:15.540 this story

01:44:16.100 and I

01:44:16.380 told it

01:44:16.920 after the

01:44:17.420 one on

01:44:17.980 Byron

01:44:18.520 because

01:44:19.920 it's always

01:44:21.000 been my

01:44:21.420 belief

01:44:21.780 and to

01:44:22.160 me it's

01:44:23.420 an insight

01:44:23.840 that's not

01:44:24.200 original

01:44:24.580 but I've

01:44:25.100 got it

01:44:25.340 from various

01:44:25.760 people

01:44:26.120 which is

01:44:26.540 what you

01:44:27.100 have up

01:44:27.520 here

01:44:27.740 the 1.00

01:44:27.900 bastards 1.00

01:44:28.240 can never 1.00

01:44:28.720 take

01:44:29.120 they can

01:44:31.520 how much

01:44:33.000 of that

01:44:34.060 so I have

01:44:34.840 a friend

01:44:35.220 in Canada

01:44:35.940 Rex Murphy

01:44:36.680 who knows

01:44:37.680 who's

01:44:38.040 extremely

01:44:38.760 erudite

01:44:39.620 and literate

01:44:40.420 and charismatic

01:44:41.140 and maybe

01:44:42.120 Canada's

01:44:42.720 most remarkable

01:44:43.640 journalist

01:44:44.200 the sort

01:44:45.760 of person

01:44:46.360 that CBC

01:44:47.100 actually produced

01:44:48.740 because he was

01:44:49.420 a CBC

01:44:49.840 production

01:44:50.380 so to speak

01:44:51.020 and would

01:44:53.020 have produced

01:44:53.760 more of

01:44:54.140 had they

01:44:54.460 actually done

01:44:54.940 their job

01:44:55.460 and

01:44:56.340 instead of

01:44:57.680 even setting

01:44:58.180 themselves

01:44:58.700 at odds

01:44:59.380 against him

01:45:00.040 which they

01:45:00.560 eventually did

01:45:01.280 he has

01:45:02.920 knowledge of

01:45:03.640 a vast

01:45:04.160 corpus

01:45:04.600 of poetry

01:45:05.140 and

01:45:05.520 it's

01:45:06.780 evident

01:45:07.140 in the

01:45:07.800 manner

01:45:08.020 in which

01:45:08.380 he speaks

01:45:09.020 because

01:45:10.340 he

01:45:11.060 has that

01:45:12.340 lilt

01:45:12.720 and cadence

01:45:13.360 and rhythm

01:45:13.940 that's

01:45:15.160 part and parcel

01:45:16.240 well and you're

01:45:17.080 very very well

01:45:17.840 spoken

01:45:18.240 how much of that

01:45:19.820 do you think

01:45:20.360 can you tell

01:45:21.420 how much of that

01:45:22.400 is a consequence

01:45:23.080 of having

01:45:24.320 internalized

01:45:25.100 it's probably

01:45:26.020 that and in my

01:45:26.980 case the great

01:45:27.560 good fortune

01:45:28.080 of being brought

01:45:28.820 up with the

01:45:29.560 King James Bible

01:45:30.360 and the Book

01:45:30.780 of Common Prayer

01:45:31.500 which if you

01:45:32.600 have them

01:45:33.060 in your head

01:45:33.740 and you recite

01:45:34.280 them every

01:45:34.660 Sunday

01:45:35.180 gives you a

01:45:36.260 pretty good

01:45:36.580 idea of how

01:45:37.140 to cadence

01:45:37.700 the English

01:45:38.140 language

01:45:38.820 right

01:45:39.740 right

01:45:40.400 so that's

01:45:41.120 an extension

01:45:41.620 of the same

01:45:42.260 thing

01:45:42.460 in some real

01:45:43.080 sense

01:45:43.480 but I do

01:45:44.420 think that

01:45:45.080 and I don't

01:45:46.940 know

01:45:47.120 as I say

01:45:47.820 I got it

01:45:48.160 from various

01:45:48.540 people when I

01:45:48.960 was growing up

01:45:49.440 but I think

01:45:50.420 the sense

01:45:50.940 that you

01:45:52.200 have to

01:45:52.640 furnish

01:45:53.320 your mental

01:45:53.840 furniture

01:45:54.440 and you

01:45:55.200 have to

01:45:55.540 furnish

01:45:55.980 that well

01:45:56.840 with the

01:45:57.880 best things

01:45:58.640 because you

01:46:00.920 might need

01:46:01.420 it someday

01:46:02.000 in fact

01:46:02.980 you'll need

01:46:03.400 it any day

01:46:03.960 it's more

01:46:04.300 like a tool

01:46:04.820 house

01:46:05.100 than furnishing

01:46:05.740 absolutely

01:46:06.200 you'll need

01:46:07.260 it any day

01:46:07.780 but there

01:46:08.100 might be a

01:46:08.580 day you

01:46:08.860 really need

01:46:09.340 it so far

01:46:09.920 I've managed

01:46:10.340 not to be

01:46:10.880 changed to

01:46:11.720 any radiator

01:46:12.260 for years

01:46:12.760 upon end

01:46:13.320 but I like

01:46:14.320 to think

01:46:14.620 that I

01:46:14.900 could try

01:46:15.280 to get

01:46:15.620 by

01:46:16.020 right

01:46:16.820 but you

01:46:17.260 also do

01:46:17.840 get by

01:46:18.440 with these

01:46:19.440 tools that

01:46:19.980 you have

01:46:20.280 at your

01:46:20.660 disposal

01:46:21.040 this is one

01:46:22.000 of the things

01:46:22.420 that's really

01:46:22.840 struck me

01:46:23.420 about how

01:46:24.040 badly we

01:46:24.480 educate young

01:46:25.140 men

01:46:25.400 because

01:46:25.800 it's harder

01:46:27.640 to get young

01:46:28.200 men interested

01:46:28.760 in literary

01:46:29.300 issues than

01:46:30.200 young women

01:46:30.700 but if you

01:46:32.260 tell young

01:46:33.100 men

01:46:33.420 well

01:46:34.340 you want

01:46:35.900 to be

01:46:36.140 successful

01:46:36.580 or not

01:46:37.100 they'll

01:46:38.180 usually say

01:46:38.740 well yeah

01:46:39.200 I'd rather

01:46:39.600 be successful

01:46:40.300 it's like

01:46:40.720 well you

01:46:41.600 know you

01:46:41.840 could hypothetically

01:46:42.900 do that by

01:46:43.540 being a 0.90

01:46:43.920 manipulative 1.00

01:46:44.400 bully

01:46:44.820 which doesn't

01:46:46.040 really work

01:46:46.420 very well

01:46:46.980 and is

01:46:47.620 counterproductive

01:46:48.300 and will turn

01:46:48.800 your life and

01:46:49.320 everyone around

01:46:49.920 you their life

01:46:50.760 into hell

01:46:51.280 so I wouldn't

01:46:52.020 recommend that

01:46:52.740 or you could

01:46:53.800 you could

01:46:55.500 master a few

01:46:56.440 things one of

01:46:57.300 which might be

01:46:58.020 language

01:46:58.620 since you think

01:47:00.060 in it

01:47:00.480 and since

01:47:01.360 everything you

01:47:02.460 plan you'll

01:47:03.120 plan using

01:47:03.680 language and

01:47:04.300 everything you

01:47:04.960 communicate about

01:47:05.900 and bring

01:47:07.180 people on board

01:47:08.080 with will be

01:47:08.700 linguistically

01:47:09.240 mediated

01:47:09.980 absolutely

01:47:10.460 but the

01:47:10.740 other thing

01:47:11.100 is that

01:47:11.940 if you

01:47:14.380 choose right

01:47:15.360 and you

01:47:16.000 read right

01:47:16.740 you read

01:47:17.740 well

01:47:18.160 that also

01:47:21.100 will guide you

01:47:21.700 in your life

01:47:22.280 I mean

01:47:22.740 in a few

01:47:23.700 weeks time

01:47:24.160 I'm doing

01:47:24.620 a favorite

01:47:25.060 poem of

01:47:26.000 mine

01:47:26.200 which is

01:47:26.920 by

01:47:27.360 Constantine

01:47:28.420 Cavafy

01:47:29.020 the 20th

01:47:29.520 century Greek

01:47:30.160 poet

01:47:30.500 his most

01:47:31.520 famous poem

01:47:32.220 Ithaca

01:47:32.760 which is

01:47:34.060 really a

01:47:34.560 description

01:47:34.960 of course

01:47:35.960 like our

01:47:36.920 great hero

01:47:37.380 setting out

01:47:38.000 the Isle of

01:47:38.520 Ithaca

01:47:38.900 but Cavafy

01:47:40.180 just describes

01:47:40.940 in his

01:47:41.240 beautiful

01:47:41.640 poem

01:47:42.040 really

01:47:43.700 what an

01:47:45.060 ideal life

01:47:45.740 would look

01:47:46.140 like

01:47:46.380 and he

01:47:49.260 says towards

01:47:49.820 the end

01:47:50.300 he says

01:47:50.860 Ithaca

01:47:52.280 gave you

01:47:52.780 the marvelous

01:47:53.320 journey

01:47:53.920 right

01:47:54.820 and

01:47:55.920 and

01:47:57.320 okay so

01:47:58.160 we could

01:47:58.460 we could

01:47:58.960 sum up

01:47:59.720 with that

01:48:00.120 in some

01:48:00.460 ways

01:48:00.680 you know

01:48:00.900 we started

01:48:01.300 this conversation

01:48:02.080 talking about

01:48:02.760 purpose

01:48:03.180 and we

01:48:04.220 delved along

01:48:05.360 the way

01:48:05.720 into the

01:48:06.640 domains of

01:48:07.380 courage

01:48:08.360 and truth

01:48:09.120 and then

01:48:10.100 into

01:48:10.560 beauty

01:48:11.520 and language

01:48:12.220 and I

01:48:12.940 would say

01:48:13.300 those are

01:48:13.680 all

01:48:13.880 manifestations

01:48:14.640 you could

01:48:15.300 think of

01:48:15.600 those all

01:48:16.040 as

01:48:16.180 manifestations

01:48:16.680 of the

01:48:17.360 word

01:48:17.700 right

01:48:18.000 they're

01:48:18.220 manifestations

01:48:18.660 of the

01:48:19.260 divine

01:48:19.600 word

01:48:19.920 that's a

01:48:20.320 good way

01:48:20.580 of thinking

01:48:20.840 about it

01:48:21.320 too

01:48:21.520 and it's

01:48:22.500 very useful

01:48:23.060 to know

01:48:23.520 that

01:48:24.120 there isn't

01:48:25.860 anything

01:48:26.340 more powerful

01:48:27.220 or meaningful

01:48:27.920 than that

01:48:28.780 right

01:48:29.100 and you said

01:48:29.560 that's been

01:48:29.920 your experience

01:48:30.460 in your life

01:48:31.040 right

01:48:31.260 is that

01:48:31.680 there isn't

01:48:32.700 a better

01:48:32.980 pathway

01:48:33.460 than

01:48:33.840 to

01:48:34.540 think

01:48:35.260 and speak

01:48:35.940 in truth

01:48:36.540 you have

01:48:37.640 the most

01:48:38.040 amazing

01:48:38.500 possible

01:48:39.000 adventures

01:48:39.420 doing that

01:48:39.960 and you meet

01:48:40.460 the highest

01:48:41.200 possible

01:48:41.800 caliber

01:48:42.180 of people

01:48:42.900 and weird

01:48:43.660 and unexpected

01:48:44.180 things happen

01:48:44.960 to you all the time

01:48:45.620 and they're often

01:48:46.480 magical

01:48:47.020 and then there's

01:48:48.340 also an element

01:48:49.000 of that

01:48:49.500 and that's

01:48:50.480 especially true

01:48:51.080 on the poetic

01:48:51.560 front that's

01:48:52.140 allied with

01:48:52.580 beauty

01:48:52.940 and that's

01:48:53.840 a good deal

01:48:54.400 because why not

01:48:55.280 add to truth

01:48:56.100 and courage

01:48:56.660 beauty

01:48:57.040 and one of the

01:48:58.380 things that

01:48:58.760 a number of the

01:48:59.900 great poets

01:49:00.580 notice keeps

01:49:01.600 perhaps most

01:49:02.400 famously

01:49:02.920 but

01:49:04.920 Rilke

01:49:06.260 in his

01:49:07.640 famous

01:49:09.580 poem

01:49:10.580 on the

01:49:10.940 torso

01:49:11.280 an antique

01:49:11.840 torso

01:49:12.280 he says

01:49:14.200 in the poem

01:49:17.300 that the

01:49:17.720 bust

01:49:18.160 the beautiful

01:49:19.440 antique bust

01:49:20.320 of the torso

01:49:21.280 is telling him

01:49:22.180 something

01:49:22.660 if you remember

01:49:23.780 Rilke

01:49:24.160 trying to work

01:49:25.160 out what it

01:49:25.880 is

01:49:26.360 same thing

01:49:28.040 music tells you

01:49:28.900 exactly

01:49:29.400 and this is

01:49:31.720 my belief

01:49:32.220 a beautiful

01:49:33.680 thing is not

01:49:34.260 just beautiful

01:49:34.900 it's telling

01:49:35.880 you something

01:49:36.380 and what the

01:49:37.620 antique torso

01:49:39.040 says to

01:49:39.960 Rilke

01:49:40.600 is you must

01:49:41.340 change your

01:49:41.960 life

01:49:42.200 right

01:49:42.460 that's Rilke

01:49:44.120 that's Rilke

01:49:45.700 okay

01:49:46.420 okay

01:49:47.200 yeah

01:49:48.500 well that's

01:49:49.100 why people

01:49:49.920 are terrified

01:49:50.360 of beauty

01:49:50.880 too

01:49:51.160 because

01:49:52.100 you know

01:49:52.800 and you

01:49:53.660 might say

01:49:54.220 you're terrified

01:49:55.960 of beauty

01:49:56.500 in proportion

01:49:57.520 to the distance

01:49:58.640 your life

01:49:59.280 is from

01:49:59.840 what's

01:50:00.200 beautiful

01:50:00.580 absolutely

01:50:01.060 because it's

01:50:01.540 a judge

01:50:02.040 right

01:50:02.260 it's an

01:50:02.780 ultimate

01:50:03.080 judge

01:50:03.560 it's like

01:50:04.020 and for it

01:50:05.260 to say

01:50:05.680 nothing about

01:50:06.380 you is this

01:50:07.160 it's

01:50:07.780 it's

01:50:08.740 a terrible

01:50:10.060 judgment

01:50:10.460 that's why

01:50:10.900 Roger used

01:50:11.700 to say

01:50:11.920 the great

01:50:12.260 thing

01:50:12.800 of modern

01:50:13.440 the modern

01:50:14.460 selfie culture

01:50:15.160 was

01:50:15.460 isn't this

01:50:17.060 work of art

01:50:17.640 lucky enough

01:50:18.240 to be in

01:50:18.620 this photo

01:50:19.100 with me

01:50:19.680 of course

01:50:22.420 it's exactly

01:50:23.380 the wrong way

01:50:23.900 around

01:50:24.080 aren't I

01:50:24.920 lucky

01:50:25.400 to be standing

01:50:26.440 in front

01:50:26.880 of this

01:50:27.360 beautiful

01:50:28.080 thing

01:50:28.580 right

01:50:29.740 well

01:50:30.020 that's

01:50:30.340 that's

01:50:30.640 the proper

01:50:31.040 attitude

01:50:31.400 of gratitude

01:50:32.580 as well

01:50:33.240 yeah

01:50:33.820 all right

01:50:34.580 Mr. Murray

01:50:35.480 thank you

01:50:36.300 everyone

01:50:36.780 for watching

01:50:38.060 and listening

01:50:38.560 and walking

01:50:40.160 with us

01:50:40.580 through these

01:50:41.100 complicated

01:50:42.000 and hopefully

01:50:42.580 promising

01:50:43.080 domains

01:50:43.620 it's always

01:50:44.580 a pleasure

01:50:44.900 to talk to you

01:50:45.500 we seem to

01:50:45.940 get a little

01:50:46.240 farther with

01:50:46.780 each conversation

01:50:47.520 and that's

01:50:48.000 always useful

01:50:48.920 I'm going to

01:50:49.640 switch over

01:50:50.080 to the

01:50:50.320 Daily Wire

01:50:50.720 Plus side

01:50:51.380 and talk

01:50:52.840 to Douglas

01:50:53.280 a little bit

01:50:53.740 more about

01:50:54.220 biographical issues

01:50:55.860 and about

01:50:56.380 the manner

01:50:56.780 in which

01:50:57.220 his calling

01:50:58.760 you might

01:50:59.180 say

01:50:59.520 made itself

01:51:00.320 manifest

01:51:00.760 I'm very

01:51:01.240 curious about

01:51:01.800 that

01:51:02.120 and so

01:51:02.900 if you're

01:51:04.080 inclined to

01:51:04.640 join us

01:51:05.080 there

01:51:05.280 do so

01:51:05.760 otherwise

01:51:06.080 thank you

01:51:06.580 very much

01:51:06.960 for your

01:51:07.220 time and

01:51:07.540 attention

01:51:07.880 and to

01:51:08.640 the Daily Wire

01:51:09.080 Plus for

01:51:09.620 making this

01:51:10.140 possible

01:51:10.520 and for you

01:51:11.120 sitting down

01:51:11.580 and talking

01:51:11.920 to me

01:51:12.200 today

01:51:12.480 it's always

01:51:13.860 much appreciated

01:51:15.080 to the film

01:51:15.720 crew here

01:51:16.080 in New York

01:51:16.640 to all the

01:51:18.380 policemen and

01:51:19.440 firemen who

01:51:20.120 had their

01:51:21.580 sirens going

01:51:22.280 pretty much

01:51:23.020 through the

01:51:23.420 entire podcast

01:51:24.060 which is one

01:51:24.720 of the things

01:51:25.100 that makes

01:51:25.460 New York

01:51:25.800 so exciting

01:51:26.420 and apart

01:51:27.920 from that

01:51:28.300 until next

01:51:28.820 time

01:51:29.120 good to see

01:51:30.440 you all

01:51:30.780 thanks Douglas

01:51:31.720 thank you

01:51:32.460 thank you

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - July 20, 2023

376. Truth and Adventure as an Antidote to Suffering ｜ Douglas Murray

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