The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast


389. Snow White, Building an Empire, & Making Movies | Jeremy Boreing


Summary

Ben Shapiro and Jeremy Boring discuss the importance of keeping politics out of children s entertainment, the strange inversion of Hollywood from the transcendental and literary to the political, and the folly of propagandistic populism put forward at the expense of traditional values, culture, and enjoyment for your children. They also discuss the landmark launch of the Bent Key Kids platform, and Ben's new role as co-CEO of the new company, Bent Key, which is launching this new app, the first step in a three-year plan to spend $100 million over the next three years on launching a new company with four new kids shows from around the world that have all been vetted and vetted to be highly entertaining for kids, and to not betray the values Ben Shapiro and Ben Shapiro believe kids should find value in their work or else they could be betraying the values of the people who find their work and work in the work they do for kids who do their best to find their value in the things they do best, and not to betray those values. Today's episode features: 1. Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's new series on depression and anxiety 2. The Pendragon Cycle 3. The Reimagine Disney campaign 4. The Little People 5. The Quiet Part Out Loud 6. The Woke Politics of the Now 7. What's next for Disney? 8. What s next for the Disney brand? 9. What are you waiting for? 10. What do you think? 11. What does Disney have to do with it? 12. Who are you want? 13. How do you want to see? 14. What would you like to see in the future of Disney as a kid entertainment company? 15. What is your kids entertainment company in 2020? 16. What should you want in the world? 17. What kind of media company you're going to get in the next five years? 18. What can you want for your kids? 19. Who do you have in the first place? 21. What will you want from a Disney movie or TV show? 22. How much money you're looking for in the most? And so much more? Is there a better way to get your kids to be more woke in the culture you want you to be woke and more woke? 23. What you can you give your kids more woke and feel more woke, more engaged in politics?


Transcript

00:00:00.960 Hey everyone, real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious and important.
00:00:06.480 Dr. Jordan Peterson has created a new series that could be a lifeline for those battling depression and anxiety.
00:00:12.740 We know how isolating and overwhelming these conditions can be, and we wanted to take a moment to reach out to those listening who may be struggling.
00:00:20.100 With decades of experience helping patients, Dr. Peterson offers a unique understanding of why you might be feeling this way in his new series.
00:00:27.420 He provides a roadmap towards healing, showing that while the journey isn't easy, it's absolutely possible to find your way forward.
00:00:35.360 If you're suffering, please know you are not alone. There's hope, and there's a path to feeling better.
00:00:41.780 Go to Daily Wire Plus now and start watching Dr. Jordan B. Peterson on depression and anxiety.
00:00:47.460 Let this be the first step towards the brighter future you deserve.
00:00:57.420 Hello everyone watching and listening. Today I'm speaking with screenwriter, director, and co-founder of The Daily Wire, Jeremy Boring.
00:01:15.980 We discuss yesterday's landmark launch of the Bent Key Kids platform, what children's entertainment, really cultural drama, should be trying to keep politics out of it.
00:01:29.180 The strange inversion of Hollywood from the transcendental and literary to the political, and the folly of propagandistic populism put forward at the expense of traditional values, culture, enjoyment, and your children.
00:01:47.620 Well, hello, Jeremy. It's good to see you.
00:01:49.860 Nice to see you.
00:01:51.880 Where are you?
00:01:52.860 For a while, you've been, I'm in Lisbon at the moment. I arrived literally like an hour and a half ago, if that, and so, yeah, I've zipped over here to the studio so that we could talk.
00:02:02.780 You had a big announcement yesterday, so let's start off our conversation.
00:02:08.120 Well, first of all, why don't you tell everybody who's watching and listening what our relationship is and exactly who you are in relationship to me and so forth, and then we'll talk about last night's announcement.
00:02:18.280 So I'm the co-founder and, on a good day, co-CEO of The Daily Wire. I'm actually on a leave of absence from that co-CEO role. At the moment, I'm in Eastern Europe and Croatia today, producing our first major scripted series for Daily Wire Plus called The Pendragon Cycle.
00:02:36.400 But our relationship is because of my involvement with Daily Wire, where your podcast is hosted and we make a lot of projects together, which has been a real treat for me.
00:02:46.320 One of the things that Ben and I, Shapiro, when we first started working together in advance of founding The Daily Wire, we really wanted to be involved in things that we thought had weight beyond just the politics of the moment.
00:02:58.860 And that may sound obvious, but we're both in a very political sphere. And so it wasn't readily apparent how to get from point A to point B, how to go from talking about politics every day to talking about deeper issues and ultimately to not only criticizing culture, but to making culture, to doing something proactive in the culture.
00:03:17.900 But that's what our journey has been. And in some ways, our announcement yesterday is another major step.
00:03:24.700 But truly, beginning to work with you a little over a year ago was a major step in that regard as well, just to move us out of only being able to talk about today and to talk about the things that undergird today, the things that undergird the news.
00:03:38.800 So that's our relationship. And I think tees up well the announcement from yesterday as well, which is that we launched our new company called Bent Key, which is our children's entertainment entity.
00:03:50.000 We announced a little over a year ago that we were going to do so in the wake of those tapes that Chris Ruffo leaked from Disney, where executives were talking about their not-so-secret gay agenda and inserting queerness into their content.
00:04:03.360 They were talking about the Reimagine Disney campaign, where they were going to have more than 50% of all of the talent of all of the on-screen characters in Disney content be from so-called underrepresented groups.
00:04:16.200 It was just this, you know, they said the quiet part out loud, which is essentially that they were going to use this brand that has for 100 years built goodwill and trust with parents to inculcate in children the sort of woke politics of the now.
00:04:31.600 We felt a real need to challenge that. We committed to spend $100 million over three years pursuing a challenge to it.
00:04:37.640 And yesterday we took the first step, which is launching this new app, this new company, Bent Key, with four original shows, with over 18 licensed shows from around the world that have all been carefully vetted, to first be highly entertaining for kids, and second, not to betray the values of the kinds of people who find value in your work or in Daily Wire's work or Ben Shapiro's work,
00:04:59.640 that they could trust, that they could put their kids in front of this content and not receive sort of a woke sucker punch for their trouble.
00:05:08.640 Okay, so let's delve into that a little bit.
00:05:11.060 So I was thinking the rejoinder to the implicit suppositions that you're bringing to bear on this conversation is something like the left's insistence that everything is political.
00:05:24.380 You know, and when I, I taught this course at Harvard and then at the University of Toronto, and it's online, called Maps of Meaning, and it was about, I think what it's about is the inevitable religious substrate of culture itself.
00:05:37.720 And I have a reason for saying inevitably religious.
00:05:40.280 And, you know, the students used to ask me, you know, why was I convinced that what I was discussing wasn't just another ideology among ideologies, which is a variant of the claim that everything is political.
00:05:54.920 Now, you know, one of the things you and I have discussed, and Shapiro as well, at the Daily Wire, is our belief that everything isn't political and that there's a strata of culture that is associated with deeper narrative, let's say.
00:06:08.640 Again, fairy tales would certainly fit into that category, that has to maintain its separateness from what's political, and it can.
00:06:17.280 Now, you mentioned, you know, with the Daily Wire that part of the limitations of its original conceptualization was that it was of the moment.
00:06:28.980 And, you know, I've seen that's a box in some ways that Shapiro has been in.
00:06:33.620 And he was participating with the Exodus seminar, and I could tell that was a real pleasure for him because he got to stretch his significant intellectual abilities beyond the merely political.
00:06:46.500 So what do you think you have to offer at Bent Key that isn't political?
00:06:51.260 And is there a way that you can defend the claim that it's actually not political?
00:06:55.520 And if it's not political, then how do you know it isn't?
00:06:58.920 How do you stop it from being political?
00:07:01.240 And why should people find that credible, given the political orientation of the Daily Wire?
00:07:08.440 Sure.
00:07:09.320 Well, first of all, I don't mean in any way to say that Daily Wire isn't political or that I'm not a political operator.
00:07:14.700 Obviously, in many ways, I am.
00:07:16.200 Shapiro in many ways is.
00:07:17.920 And it's perhaps a political act to launch Bent Key at all.
00:07:23.080 I mean, certainly it's a reaction to what we see as the excesses of the left manifesting themselves in particularly children's entertainment.
00:07:30.720 But, you know, if you look at the broader work that we've been doing over the last several years, entertainment more generally, I've learned not to refer to it as adult entertainment, although we would get more clicks probably if I did.
00:07:40.640 So, it is a political action that we're taking, but that is distinct from saying, in particular with the kids' content, that the content itself will be intended to communicate politics.
00:07:53.880 And I think that that's perhaps a subtle but very important distinction.
00:07:58.320 Kids deserve a childhood.
00:08:00.620 I think that you can make a good argument that one of the problems in our culture is that we infantilize adults.
00:08:06.180 That through the university system, for example, we now refer to 23-year-olds as college kids and expect that they would not be held accountable for anything that they do as though they're still juvenile legal standards for 23-year-olds who at any other point in human history would have been, you know, married, parents, productive in their societies, perhaps have fought in wars, perhaps be members of the clubs and institutions that used to be a major part of what held up.
00:08:35.600 Sort of the culture itself, you know, church communities and other kinds of civic organizations.
00:08:43.740 Now we call them kids.
00:08:44.880 But then on the other hand, we take actual kids and in many ways deny them their childhoods because we instead are using them as sort of social experiments to see if it's possible to inculcate into them a set of almost anti-value values.
00:09:00.300 I say anti-value because they're not anything that would have historically been considered values and they in many ways oppose the values on which civilization thus far has been built.
00:09:09.580 And we want to just see what happens.
00:09:11.040 You know, what happens if we tell little boys that they're little girls?
00:09:13.680 What happens if we drug an entire generation of boys out of all of the sort of biological impulses that boys have?
00:09:21.280 What happens if we have children marching in political rallies and use them as political instruments?
00:09:28.320 That's what I don't want Bent Key to be.
00:09:30.560 So while I'm doing something political in the launch of Bent Key, what Bent Key itself from a content point of view is endeavoring to do is say,
00:09:38.220 no, you know, I don't think that adults are kids, but I think that kids by God should be, and we should provide them with the kind of content that almost all of us up until this particular moment got to have in our youth,
00:09:49.860 which was content that took the values on which our civilization was built, wrapped them in a sense of imagination, wrapped them in a sense of wonder, wrapped them in a sense of joy,
00:09:59.020 and gave children the opportunity to engage with them, not as lessons, but as entire worlds in which they might see themselves and project themselves into.
00:10:11.180 That's what Bent Key was to be.
00:10:13.240 There's a bunch of thoughts going on in my mind about how to distinguish the political from the, I think, from the eternal.
00:10:20.620 And so we could say the deeper a story is, the less it's reflective of the immediate moment and the more it's reflective of the eternal.
00:10:30.500 Now, the problem with that is that it gets, if it gets too reflective of the eternal, it tends to float away.
00:10:36.300 Mircea Eliade, historian of religions, he called that the deus abscondus, the God who floats away, essentially.
00:10:45.320 And one of the things that Eliade did that was very interesting was note that the Nietzschean death of God was actually a recurring motif in culture,
00:10:56.140 that a society would be founded on a religious revelation, which was its core narrative,
00:11:00.980 and that it would run in some ways till it exhausted that narrative or ran into a counter-proposition that took it out or it degenerated,
00:11:09.580 you know, it degenerated into sort of a multi-headed paganism, something like that.
00:11:13.280 But that it wasn't uncommon for God to disappear, and God would disappear, so to speak,
00:11:19.240 when his conceptualization became so far removed from the concrete that it was as if he was,
00:11:25.960 he's like the God of Einstein, just sort of an abstract cosmic force, right?
00:11:30.420 Now, you want to find a great narrative.
00:11:33.640 You announced the first live-action movie that you're going to produce, Snow White,
00:11:38.620 which is a very interesting choice because it was the movie, of course, that Disney based his empire on,
00:11:43.840 but also it's a timeless fairy tale.
00:11:47.160 Now, a timeless fairy tale is, it's sort of halfway between the ultimately religious and the proximal and temporally bound.
00:11:58.720 And we have evidence, there is evidence from historical research that some of the fairy tales that are commonly known are up to 15,000 years old.
00:12:11.560 So, and the reason that's relevant is because they've demonstrated their eternal relevance merely as a consequence of being remembered that long.
00:12:20.220 And so, one of the ways that, the reason I'm saying this is because what, there's a technical way to some degree that you can distinguish what's merely political from what's timeless and eternal,
00:12:31.560 because what has the latter properties is so ancient and unchanging.
00:12:37.440 And one of the things I learned in this Exodus seminar, and this was mostly from Jonathan Pajot,
00:12:43.660 because he developed this idea most specifically and accurately,
00:12:48.560 was that for a society to order itself properly, it has to order itself under a pyramidal structure.
00:12:55.960 And one element of that pyramidal structure is horizontal, and that would be the Jacob's ladder leading up to heaven.
00:13:02.320 And the other axis is communitarian.
00:13:05.300 And so, that's reflected in a popular culture.
00:13:08.580 You might say, well, if enough people believe it, it's true.
00:13:11.720 And you could also say that you should go along with the crowd unless you have reason not to.
00:13:16.500 And you should say that you should be socialized into your cultural mores.
00:13:20.380 And the objection to that is, well, what do you do then when the society goes off the rails?
00:13:26.020 And how can a society go off the rails if it's only consensus?
00:13:31.740 It goes off the rails like Nazi Germany or after the French Revolution or with the Soviets.
00:13:36.740 And the answer to that is, well, you need that horizontal axis that orients you towards what's timeless.
00:13:42.720 And the landing point here is, well, that's one of the things that great stories do, right?
00:13:49.080 They bring God down to earth a little bit so that he's more human and more accessible.
00:13:54.140 That's a way of thinking about it.
00:13:55.820 But they also escape the constraints of what's immediate.
00:13:59.460 And they're not political.
00:14:01.460 And so, let's take this Snow White story, for example.
00:14:05.200 I mean, you place Brett Cooper as the star.
00:14:09.180 That's a very interesting choice.
00:14:10.540 She's not your classic Snow White.
00:14:12.600 She's quite an athletic and, like, robust-looking person, right?
00:14:17.500 She's a tough cookie, Brett.
00:14:19.260 And how do you know and why are you convinced that your political affiliations, beliefs,
00:14:26.780 haven't skewed your narrative comprehension?
00:14:30.840 Why do you think you're a reasonable judge of that?
00:14:33.020 And did you even have anything to do with the way that Snow White itself, the new movie, was constructed?
00:14:37.920 Yeah, absolutely.
00:14:38.860 So, I don't think that it's possible to say that you can completely separate my politics out.
00:14:45.060 Obviously, the choices that I make are informed by who I am.
00:14:48.200 What I would say is that I would offer two points of view here.
00:14:52.460 One is about The Daily Wire, and one is about me.
00:14:56.220 Let's start with The Daily Wire.
00:14:57.540 The Daily Wire was essentially founded by three men, myself, Ben Shapiro, and Caleb Robinson.
00:15:02.720 The three of us have incredibly diverse religious backgrounds.
00:15:06.240 Caleb grew up and was very committed in a religious circle that is Christian but keeps Jewish law.
00:15:17.120 And so, it's a very small flock kind of mentality.
00:15:19.880 There's not a lot of people who see the world the way that they see it.
00:15:23.180 It's a very small community, but a very devoted community, as one must be, to keep all of the religious holidays,
00:15:29.680 to keep Sabbaths, to keep biblical kosher, you know, it was a very, it was a religious point of view that took work.
00:15:37.140 Ben, of course, is an Orthodox Jew, and everything that accompanies that, you know, he, you know, Ben,
00:15:43.280 the Jews suffer the worst terror attack in living memory of any of, you know, any except the very oldest Holocaust survivors who live now,
00:15:51.580 have never seen anything as bad as what happened 10 days ago.
00:15:54.020 And yet, Ben didn't even know about it.
00:15:57.560 Why?
00:15:58.320 Because it was the Sabbath.
00:15:59.860 And in Ben's community, they're so devoted to their religious beliefs that even in a moment like that,
00:16:05.400 I could not reach Ben with any electronic device to communicate this information to him.
00:16:09.720 I had to communicate something to him because I put extra security on his family and on his home,
00:16:14.260 and so I had the security guard walk up and tell him some small version of what had happened.
00:16:17.820 But I use it to point out that Ben is incredibly dedicated to his beliefs,
00:16:22.800 but his beliefs are incredibly distinct from Caleb's.
00:16:25.200 They share all these religious holidays.
00:16:27.040 They share many aspects of Old Testament law, but they depart wildly when the New Testament comes into play.
00:16:33.160 And then you have me, who for 15 years taught a home church in Southern California,
00:16:38.040 and who is, you know, a Paulian, you know, sort of New Covenant radical,
00:16:45.080 the furthest from Ben and the furthest from Caleb,
00:16:47.660 and what I think about, you know, what the Gentile is to make of the law and other things.
00:16:51.800 I don't mean to get too far off into that,
00:16:53.440 except to say that baked into the very heart of the Daily Wire
00:16:56.960 is fundamental disagreement between the three founders
00:17:02.680 on some of the most important questions while still seeing in one another kinship
00:17:08.760 and what we see as the fight of our lifetime in our culture.
00:17:12.100 And so for that reason, you know, we rarely get sucked into sort of purity politics at the Daily Wire.
00:17:20.280 I think it's allowed us to weather a lot of sort of, you know,
00:17:23.440 what I call purity death spirals that come along in politics from time to time.
00:17:28.480 And it makes us each question not only our own beliefs all the time,
00:17:31.680 because we have to find a way to work together and build this company around worldview
00:17:35.700 while not sharing every aspect of our worldview.
00:17:38.260 But it also makes us question the kind of content that we make.
00:17:41.120 If there's a piece of content that both Ben and Caleb and I find resonates,
00:17:45.760 well, that must mean that it necessarily transcends some of our disagreements.
00:17:50.920 And I think that that's a fairly good way of saying that no one of our individual politics
00:17:55.100 necessarily override in the content that we make.
00:17:58.480 And the other thing I would say is just about me personally, which is,
00:18:01.820 you know, I'm a conservative in the American sense,
00:18:05.320 but I'm not a conservative in the classic European sense
00:18:08.000 that is somewhat ascendant even in America today.
00:18:11.160 You know, I'm very much of the Reagan moment in America,
00:18:14.360 where part of what American conservatism seeks to conserve
00:18:17.940 is the unique brand of American liberalism
00:18:20.820 that came to the fore in our founding era.
00:18:23.880 You know, I think that lowercase liberalism is the immune system within a traditional society.
00:18:30.780 It looks out for those who are hard done by,
00:18:33.920 by the structures that are overwhelmingly good,
00:18:36.460 that were generated from ancient wisdom,
00:18:38.580 but that nevertheless are imperfect in an imperfect world,
00:18:41.680 and that liberalism does a good job of saying,
00:18:44.260 well, some people are dispossessed in these systems.
00:18:46.480 Some people, you know, we need to question those systems.
00:18:48.400 We don't need to burn them down.
00:18:49.520 We don't need to throw them out,
00:18:50.940 but we need to always be working to better them,
00:18:53.060 and we need to be looking after the people who are left out in those systems.
00:18:56.880 You know, this is the sort of all men are created equal,
00:18:58.940 endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights,
00:19:01.740 brand of American liberalism,
00:19:03.540 very distinct from French liberalism or European liberalism,
00:19:06.960 and I think an important part of the American tradition.
00:19:09.740 So to the extent that I'm a conservative,
00:19:11.100 I want to maintain the institutions that I know are imperfect,
00:19:14.940 but I also know undergird our society.
00:19:16.820 But one of those institutions, at least for Americans,
00:19:19.920 is this unique brand of liberalism,
00:19:21.580 which has always been incredibly helpful in helping our system be,
00:19:26.000 again, imperfect, but perhaps healthier than other systems in moments,
00:19:29.920 for example, in the 20th century.
00:19:32.180 And so what comes with my particular brand of, you know,
00:19:37.300 American conservatism is always self-doubt,
00:19:40.880 because the American liberalism in me knows
00:19:43.760 that my imperfections are also manifest in the things that I do
00:19:48.000 and that my American liberalism says
00:19:50.820 that I also need to be protecting people from my worst excesses,
00:19:53.700 from my worst impulses,
00:19:55.260 that not all of my decisions are correct,
00:19:57.200 that not everything that I set my hand to is right.
00:19:59.980 And I think that that brings along,
00:20:02.360 I'm certainly in no way claiming not to fail at this quite often,
00:20:07.140 but I am conscious of the mistakes that I make as much as I can be.
00:20:13.540 You know, we were discussing even before the show,
00:20:16.540 and I won't go into specifics,
00:20:17.540 but I inadvertently harmed someone
00:20:20.760 who you and I both hold in high esteem recently.
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00:22:05.000 I'm not unaware that I did it,
00:22:06.680 and I'm not unaware that I have some culpability,
00:22:08.880 even though I didn't set about to do it.
00:22:10.380 I didn't do it deliberately.
00:22:12.320 I think that that particular view, though,
00:22:14.540 also helps with this content question
00:22:16.260 that you're asking.
00:22:17.100 I would certainly never suggest
00:22:18.620 that our content does not in some ways
00:22:20.160 reflect my political opinions
00:22:21.540 because I'm imperfect.
00:22:23.540 But I think that the unique mixture
00:22:25.800 that is The Daily Wire
00:22:26.840 and the unique mixture that is my own politics
00:22:29.040 perhaps uniquely prepares us and me
00:22:31.680 for this moment
00:22:32.680 of trying to be critical of my own impulses,
00:22:36.020 trying to be critical of my own beliefs,
00:22:37.620 and trying to find something that transcends them
00:22:39.600 and that speaks to those institutions
00:22:41.360 on which our society's been built.
00:22:44.720 Absolutely, our content will fail at that,
00:22:46.580 but that's what our content's going to endeavor to do.
00:22:49.680 Right.
00:22:50.220 Well, it's a tricky business, eh?
00:22:51.660 I was reflecting.
00:22:52.680 I saw the Snow White trailer last night, eh?
00:22:55.080 And I would say, as a neutral observer,
00:22:59.540 it's pretty easy for me to determine
00:23:02.200 whether something I watch or listen to
00:23:04.420 is of a certain quality.
00:23:07.740 Now, I wouldn't say my judgment in that regard
00:23:10.120 is unerring, but it's not too bad,
00:23:12.600 and I'm reasonably informed on that front.
00:23:14.560 But I did find right away,
00:23:16.920 much to my chagrin,
00:23:18.200 and I've experienced this before,
00:23:19.620 that it was difficult for me
00:23:20.960 to evaluate the Snow White trailer
00:23:22.960 because I know,
00:23:25.080 well, I work with you guys,
00:23:26.180 and I genuinely wanted to succeed,
00:23:28.460 and I believe that your heart
00:23:29.920 and your pocketbook
00:23:31.620 is in the right place
00:23:32.880 in relationship to this.
00:23:34.100 It made it very hard for me to decide
00:23:36.740 how I felt about the trailer.
00:23:39.860 And so this is part of the reason
00:23:41.880 I asked the content question.
00:23:43.440 And so your claim is that
00:23:45.440 there's a truly diverse range of opinion
00:23:49.660 at The Daily Wire.
00:23:50.980 Now, my experience,
00:23:52.160 just so everybody watching and listening knows,
00:23:54.760 you know, I was very concerned about
00:23:56.400 forming a partnership with you guys,
00:23:59.480 and my negotiating team,
00:24:02.680 I was quite ill when this was happening,
00:24:04.120 but my negotiating team and your side
00:24:05.720 went back and forth for a long time,
00:24:08.060 like six months,
00:24:09.540 hammering this deal out,
00:24:11.140 and it was a full-blown boxing match
00:24:15.060 doing it,
00:24:15.620 although always cordial on both sides.
00:24:17.960 And that's how it should be
00:24:18.860 because you want to hammer out a detail
00:24:20.680 where all the,
00:24:21.720 or a deal where all the details
00:24:23.140 are hammered out
00:24:24.000 and everyone is thrilled to be on board.
00:24:26.740 And when we finally managed that,
00:24:29.060 I was thrilled to be on board.
00:24:30.300 And then we got a lot of backlash from people,
00:24:32.360 you know,
00:24:32.580 and they were afraid that
00:24:33.760 you guys would interfere with
00:24:36.200 the free content that I was generating
00:24:38.420 and that my approach to
00:24:42.820 public communication would be somehow
00:24:46.380 twisted and bent into
00:24:50.060 the more political Daily Wire mode.
00:24:52.760 And most of that criticism has disappeared.
00:24:55.320 Now, if I do something political,
00:24:57.020 some of it pops back up,
00:24:58.120 but most of it has disappeared.
00:24:59.540 And also any remaining concerns I had
00:25:01.900 have disappeared
00:25:02.600 because all I've experienced
00:25:04.600 while working with the Daily Wire
00:25:06.300 has been a very high level
00:25:08.380 of professional excellence
00:25:09.660 in everything that's been done,
00:25:12.940 including all the editing
00:25:14.040 of the various documentaries
00:25:15.360 that I've done with you guys,
00:25:16.700 a real openness to creative exploration.
00:25:19.480 I mean, we did,
00:25:20.840 I don't know,
00:25:21.180 we've done five documentaries,
00:25:22.860 I think in a way on a wing and a promise.
00:25:25.060 I said I was going to a certain place.
00:25:27.080 We did this with the biblical museum documentary.
00:25:29.860 That's one that's been released.
00:25:31.480 I went there and I talked to people.
00:25:33.280 We had a film crew.
00:25:34.340 We filmed hours and hours of content
00:25:36.000 and you had a great editorial staff
00:25:38.040 make that into a compelling documentary.
00:25:40.580 But we didn't have a detailed business plan
00:25:43.820 for it worked out.
00:25:44.980 And it was spontaneous and playful
00:25:48.840 and investigative and creative
00:25:51.460 in the best sense.
00:25:52.240 So all I've found working with you so far
00:25:54.420 and this has been quite a surprise really
00:25:56.400 is apart from the high level of professionalism,
00:25:59.360 which makes everything
00:26:00.200 that I've been able to do done better,
00:26:02.980 I've also found that it's done nothing
00:26:04.800 but facilitate anything I wanted to do
00:26:07.260 that was creative.
00:26:08.240 And that included the Exodus seminar
00:26:09.880 because you guys also took a big risk on that.
00:26:12.580 I mean, first of all,
00:26:14.040 organizing the first part of it,
00:26:16.140 which was all there was supposed to be,
00:26:17.500 which was about eight episodes,
00:26:18.520 and then doubling the length.
00:26:20.640 And you were very generous about that.
00:26:22.460 And everyone who came down to participate
00:26:24.900 had a remarkably good time,
00:26:28.560 would be happy to do it again.
00:26:30.080 And it was very productive.
00:26:31.460 And so the reason I'm telling that whole story
00:26:33.500 is because I think I have some reason
00:26:36.000 to assume that your claim
00:26:39.140 to be able to engage in a creative endeavor
00:26:42.220 rather than a political endeavor
00:26:43.680 has some gravitas, right?
00:26:46.960 It's reliable.
00:26:48.160 I really saw that with the documentaries.
00:26:50.340 Now, I contrast that in my own mind
00:26:52.480 with the other problem,
00:26:53.360 which I mentioned,
00:26:54.060 which is, yeah,
00:26:55.140 but if you're hoping that someone will succeed
00:26:58.120 and you are aligned with them in sentiment,
00:27:01.300 let's say,
00:27:01.900 it gets hard to actually evaluate
00:27:03.660 the creative content
00:27:04.700 because your biases emerge.
00:27:07.120 And so what sort of response
00:27:10.120 have you got to the bent key programming
00:27:11.900 for kids that's already been viewed
00:27:13.800 by children and parents,
00:27:15.480 by your target market?
00:27:16.580 And how has that made you feel
00:27:18.400 about the possibility,
00:27:19.780 like the actuality of quality
00:27:21.280 and the possibility of success in that regard?
00:27:24.120 Well, as we sit here,
00:27:25.180 the app has been live for just over 24 hours.
00:27:28.660 And so we're only just now getting real feedback.
00:27:32.600 I mean, up until now,
00:27:33.440 everyone who's viewed any of the content
00:27:34.960 in some way is going to be predisposed
00:27:36.960 to like it in the ways that you're saying.
00:27:40.560 So it's early.
00:27:41.240 People are just now engaging with the content,
00:27:42.760 but the feedback has been very good,
00:27:45.160 except in one place.
00:27:46.880 You know, Deadline Hollywood ran a story about Snow White
00:27:49.820 and many of the comments are very negative,
00:27:51.580 but of course that's because most of the people
00:27:53.600 who read Deadline Hollywood
00:27:54.640 are people who have another set of biases,
00:27:57.300 theirs being against.
00:27:58.760 And so I probably put them in the same category
00:28:01.640 that I put you.
00:28:02.840 You're a friend,
00:28:03.840 you're a collaborator,
00:28:05.800 you're a partner in many of our endeavors.
00:28:09.380 And so, of course,
00:28:10.360 your biases come to bear,
00:28:11.380 their biases are going to come to bear.
00:28:12.760 But so far,
00:28:13.440 the audience has really responded to the content.
00:28:15.920 And we worked incredibly hard
00:28:17.920 on these original shows.
00:28:19.940 A Wonderful Day with Mabel McClay,
00:28:22.120 I truly believe,
00:28:24.780 is a show that kids 20 years from now
00:28:27.940 will talk about the way that I talk about Mr. Rogers,
00:28:31.120 something that is so dear to me from my own childhood.
00:28:34.260 I think that the creators of that show,
00:28:36.760 Ryan and Katie Chase,
00:28:37.660 whom I've known for many, many years,
00:28:39.940 were almost put on earth to make this content.
00:28:43.000 It's beautiful.
00:28:44.640 It's filled with wonder.
00:28:46.860 It's filled with joy.
00:28:48.780 It's filled with imagination.
00:28:50.320 It isn't,
00:28:51.600 they are not political operators at all.
00:28:55.080 They're people who ran an improv comedy school
00:28:58.000 for kids in LA for a decade.
00:29:00.280 They love kids.
00:29:01.980 They're delighted by children.
00:29:03.300 They understand children.
00:29:04.800 And they've made a show
00:29:05.940 that I put in a category
00:29:08.880 of about five pieces of content.
00:29:11.300 The Exodus Seminar being one of them.
00:29:14.180 Matt Walsh's documentary,
00:29:15.340 What is a Woman?
00:29:15.920 being another.
00:29:16.700 This very small group of content
00:29:19.260 that I believe is
00:29:20.800 the things that I'm the most proud of
00:29:24.200 having published in my career.
00:29:27.040 Then we have Chip Chilla.
00:29:28.700 The writers who came over to do Chip Chilla
00:29:30.700 are guys who've been working.
00:29:32.200 They worked on Veggie Tales
00:29:33.360 and other animated shows in the past.
00:29:35.460 Highly creative.
00:29:36.520 We worked very hard
00:29:37.780 to get them on board on the team,
00:29:38.880 much like we worked to get you on the team.
00:29:41.080 The producers,
00:29:41.880 a guy who came over from Disney,
00:29:43.120 was the creator
00:29:44.220 of the Tangled animated series,
00:29:46.700 which is a true piece of art.
00:29:48.600 You know,
00:29:49.560 there are no schlubs over at Disney
00:29:50.720 when it comes to making great content.
00:29:52.840 And I'm very proud of Chip Chilla.
00:29:54.200 I think kids love it.
00:29:55.300 As I sat down,
00:29:56.440 my own daughter
00:29:57.000 had not gotten to see it yet.
00:29:58.820 She saw her first episode
00:30:00.000 before I left the house.
00:30:00.980 She's three years old.
00:30:02.260 And my wife texted me
00:30:03.680 and said that she just came
00:30:05.020 into her room and said,
00:30:07.060 Mommy, I want to sit on the potty
00:30:08.340 and watch Chip Chilla.
00:30:09.560 So that's one vote of confidence.
00:30:12.440 I think people are really going to respond
00:30:13.940 to that content.
00:30:15.000 But it is a journey.
00:30:16.600 Most of the people
00:30:17.240 who are excellent
00:30:18.380 at making this kind of content
00:30:19.640 are making it—
00:30:21.140 you don't become excellent
00:30:22.280 without experience.
00:30:23.580 And if you have experience,
00:30:24.760 it's because you've been working
00:30:25.780 within the very system
00:30:26.660 that we're challenging.
00:30:28.060 And so, of course,
00:30:28.800 the undertaking is enormous.
00:30:32.580 Building up to the kind of quality
00:30:34.040 that you see at Disney,
00:30:35.620 we're going to miss.
00:30:36.340 We're going to strive.
00:30:38.160 There are going to be times
00:30:38.740 where we hit it.
00:30:39.260 There's going to be times
00:30:39.780 where we miss.
00:30:40.260 We're going to learn
00:30:40.680 from our mistakes.
00:30:41.420 We're going to get better
00:30:42.060 as we go.
00:30:43.640 You know,
00:30:43.900 I always laugh at people
00:30:44.860 who walk out of the hospital
00:30:47.260 with their first kid
00:30:48.140 and they have a world's greatest dad
00:30:50.040 ball cap.
00:30:51.040 And I always think,
00:30:52.060 buddy,
00:30:52.260 you're not even a mediocre dad.
00:30:54.180 You've been a dad for 17 hours,
00:30:57.340 you know?
00:30:58.380 It's an aspirational statement,
00:30:59.920 though, the hat, right?
00:31:00.800 And so I would right now
00:31:02.140 wear a world's greatest
00:31:03.240 kids' content producer hat,
00:31:05.740 not because it's what I am,
00:31:07.020 but it's because
00:31:07.420 what I aspire to be.
00:31:09.220 We believe that this
00:31:11.060 is an important charge.
00:31:12.420 We believe that it is
00:31:13.280 the mission of a lifetime
00:31:14.220 to help reclaim our culture
00:31:16.040 in all the ways
00:31:16.720 that matter most.
00:31:17.940 We're going to pour ourselves
00:31:19.100 into it
00:31:19.760 to the point of,
00:31:22.460 well,
00:31:22.680 as we've poured ourselves
00:31:23.400 into everything else
00:31:24.460 to the point of breaking
00:31:25.380 and finding joy
00:31:26.340 in the sheer difficulty of it
00:31:29.080 because we believe
00:31:29.920 in the thing that we're doing.
00:31:32.740 Yeah, well,
00:31:33.260 you guys are a strange bunch
00:31:35.000 of conservatives,
00:31:36.160 you know,
00:31:36.420 and maybe that's a consequence
00:31:37.800 of the strange fracturing
00:31:39.200 of the political landscape
00:31:40.240 because,
00:31:41.120 well,
00:31:41.260 first of all,
00:31:41.780 a libertarian conservative
00:31:43.140 is not that easy
00:31:45.160 to distinguish
00:31:45.820 from a classic liberal
00:31:47.040 in many ways.
00:31:48.060 And so,
00:31:48.620 but then,
00:31:49.240 you know,
00:31:49.520 the research I did
00:31:50.660 and that was done
00:31:51.460 by a number of psychologists
00:31:52.580 at the same time
00:31:53.580 showed quite clearly
00:31:55.060 that,
00:31:55.640 say,
00:31:55.880 10 years ago,
00:31:57.200 the best predictors
00:31:58.520 of conservative belief
00:31:59.920 on the temperament side
00:32:01.240 were low openness,
00:32:03.780 which is interest in ideas
00:32:05.760 and interest in aesthetics.
00:32:06.880 And certainly,
00:32:08.480 it's low interest
00:32:09.540 in aesthetics,
00:32:10.220 in particular,
00:32:11.120 that was one of the big predictors
00:32:12.440 of classic conservatism
00:32:13.820 in our studies
00:32:14.760 and that would
00:32:15.900 argue very strongly
00:32:18.200 against being interested
00:32:19.600 in something particularly
00:32:20.860 like child's literary
00:32:22.180 entertainment,
00:32:23.000 right?
00:32:23.360 So,
00:32:23.940 and then,
00:32:24.980 and so,
00:32:25.740 now,
00:32:26.400 but it is the case
00:32:27.320 that all of the people
00:32:28.640 that I've worked with
00:32:29.360 at The Daily Wire
00:32:30.100 have this very,
00:32:31.500 very high level
00:32:32.180 of interest
00:32:32.640 in creative production
00:32:33.640 and so that does say
00:32:34.680 something strange
00:32:35.360 about the fractionating
00:32:36.280 of culture,
00:32:36.880 but it's also something
00:32:38.060 I find
00:32:38.640 that I find
00:32:40.540 difficult to,
00:32:42.020 you're a complex
00:32:43.760 sort of person
00:32:44.620 to understand
00:32:45.180 and so I wanted
00:32:45.780 to delve into that
00:32:46.560 a little bit
00:32:47.000 and so you have
00:32:48.500 this background
00:32:49.140 in Christian teaching
00:32:52.060 and now you've started
00:32:53.520 this crazy company
00:32:54.480 which seems to be
00:32:55.200 working extremely well
00:32:56.320 and now you're branching
00:32:57.520 out into
00:32:57.920 the entertainment world.
00:32:59.380 Now,
00:32:59.840 The Daily Wire
00:33:00.300 has produced a number
00:33:01.180 of movies,
00:33:01.660 we could talk about
00:33:02.360 those momentarily
00:33:03.280 with some degree
00:33:04.380 of success.
00:33:05.360 It's like,
00:33:06.100 I don't understand
00:33:07.860 how it is
00:33:08.580 that you're that guy.
00:33:09.940 Like,
00:33:10.400 where did you develop
00:33:11.360 you're interested
00:33:11.980 in entertainment?
00:33:13.660 Why do you think
00:33:14.780 you have the
00:33:15.760 aesthetic capacity
00:33:17.160 to make the kind
00:33:18.740 of judgments
00:33:19.220 necessary to run
00:33:20.600 a,
00:33:21.280 well,
00:33:21.480 what's attempting
00:33:22.540 to be a full-fledged
00:33:23.760 entertainment network?
00:33:25.820 Why do you think
00:33:26.640 that's you
00:33:27.260 and if it is you,
00:33:28.680 how did you come
00:33:29.660 to have those abilities?
00:33:31.320 Now,
00:33:31.560 you're in Europe,
00:33:32.180 we could talk about this,
00:33:33.100 too,
00:33:33.980 very deeply involved
00:33:35.300 in this Pendragon cycle.
00:33:36.940 I'd like to hear
00:33:37.720 more about that,
00:33:38.400 but like,
00:33:39.080 where did these interests
00:33:40.140 come from in you
00:33:41.160 and why do you think
00:33:42.440 you have the ability
00:33:43.400 to manage this?
00:33:45.400 Well,
00:33:45.840 the first question first,
00:33:46.760 where does it come from?
00:33:47.720 You know,
00:33:47.920 I grew up in a very rural town
00:33:50.040 in West Texas
00:33:50.820 called Slayton,
00:33:52.620 and it's on the flattest
00:33:54.140 landmass on Earth
00:33:55.000 called the Llano Estacado.
00:33:56.540 We have towns
00:33:57.440 with names like
00:33:58.140 Level Land
00:33:59.120 and Plain View,
00:34:00.600 a town called
00:34:01.500 No Trees.
00:34:02.460 It is truly flat
00:34:04.260 and desolate.
00:34:04.940 What we have
00:34:05.500 in abundance
00:34:06.400 is sky
00:34:07.040 because there's nothing
00:34:07.640 to obscure your view
00:34:08.580 of it.
00:34:09.340 And this particular region
00:34:10.460 has produced
00:34:10.920 an enormous,
00:34:11.840 disproportionate number
00:34:13.040 of successful
00:34:13.700 musical stars
00:34:15.160 from Buddy Holly,
00:34:16.740 who was very famously
00:34:19.180 from Lubbock, Texas,
00:34:20.680 Natalie Maines
00:34:21.500 of the Dixie Chicks,
00:34:22.560 Joe Ely,
00:34:24.160 Leanne Womack,
00:34:25.200 you know,
00:34:25.380 went to school out there,
00:34:26.200 a lot of country stars
00:34:26.980 in particular.
00:34:28.300 And so,
00:34:29.140 a lot of people wonder
00:34:30.520 why this area
00:34:31.640 has produced
00:34:32.080 a disproportionate number
00:34:33.220 of artists in music.
00:34:34.700 But those of us
00:34:35.240 who grew up in it,
00:34:35.920 and my best friend,
00:34:36.680 my childhood best friend's
00:34:37.620 father sort of ran
00:34:38.900 the local entertainment
00:34:39.960 industry.
00:34:40.480 He ran the local
00:34:41.120 music industry
00:34:42.260 in that part of the world.
00:34:43.140 So I had access
00:34:44.200 to all of that
00:34:45.060 growing up,
00:34:46.300 you know.
00:34:46.620 I wasn't very good
00:34:48.240 at sports,
00:34:49.000 but I,
00:34:49.600 you know,
00:34:50.200 was working backstage
00:34:51.040 at theatrical
00:34:51.940 and musical productions
00:34:52.800 at the theater
00:34:53.320 that he owned
00:34:53.840 or at bars
00:34:54.380 or other things
00:34:55.060 from a very young age.
00:34:56.480 In fact,
00:34:56.720 the key that I wear
00:34:57.420 around my neck
00:34:58.100 for which our company
00:34:58.900 is named,
00:34:59.500 The Bent Key,
00:35:00.720 was the key
00:35:01.340 to a regional theater
00:35:02.380 in post-Texas
00:35:03.340 called the Garza Theater
00:35:04.360 where I grew up
00:35:05.420 doing plays.
00:35:07.340 I had access
00:35:08.140 to this wonderful
00:35:08.660 world of entertainment
00:35:09.320 and what I understood
00:35:10.080 from the people
00:35:11.440 I was getting to work with,
00:35:12.260 the adults I was getting
00:35:12.920 to work with,
00:35:13.700 is that it was
00:35:15.220 the desolation
00:35:16.540 of that area.
00:35:17.740 It was the fact
00:35:18.400 that we had no trees
00:35:19.260 to look at
00:35:19.800 and nothing but sky.
00:35:21.060 Joe Ely says
00:35:21.800 we had nothing
00:35:22.580 but a desolate void
00:35:23.900 to fill.
00:35:25.080 And I think that's true.
00:35:26.880 And so,
00:35:27.380 for any of us
00:35:28.100 who had any
00:35:28.780 bent in that direction,
00:35:30.980 you couldn't produce
00:35:33.060 enough to ever
00:35:33.660 fill that void.
00:35:34.900 You'd look up
00:35:35.460 at the sky
00:35:36.060 for your inspiration
00:35:37.500 instead of being
00:35:38.020 able to look around you.
00:35:39.300 And that's what took me
00:35:40.320 ultimately to California.
00:35:42.560 Sure,
00:35:42.940 a little bit of
00:35:43.360 manifest destiny,
00:35:44.260 but an awful lot
00:35:44.880 of stars in my eyes.
00:35:46.520 I moved out there
00:35:47.400 because I wanted
00:35:47.860 to be an actor.
00:35:48.540 I wanted to be
00:35:49.220 a producer.
00:35:50.380 I got out there
00:35:51.040 and realized very quickly
00:35:52.180 that I didn't have
00:35:53.040 what it took
00:35:53.880 to be a successful actor.
00:35:55.420 That was a very hard
00:35:56.160 moment in my life.
00:35:57.900 And I really poured
00:35:58.460 myself in.
00:35:58.960 What were you lacking?
00:36:01.820 I,
00:36:02.440 I,
00:36:03.240 what I came to realize
00:36:04.640 is that
00:36:05.300 the environment
00:36:06.540 that I grew up in
00:36:07.300 I thought was teaching
00:36:08.380 me to be an actor,
00:36:09.380 but it wasn't.
00:36:10.780 What it was teaching
00:36:11.420 me to be
00:36:11.940 was a producer.
00:36:13.260 And by producer,
00:36:14.140 what I mean is
00:36:14.880 someone who creates
00:36:16.180 something out of nothing.
00:36:17.820 That in a way,
00:36:18.840 the acting
00:36:19.320 that I had done
00:36:20.000 in my youth
00:36:20.660 hadn't been
00:36:21.760 the kind of acting
00:36:22.820 that true actors do.
00:36:24.680 It had been
00:36:25.080 the kind of acting
00:36:26.000 that a producer does,
00:36:27.440 the acting
00:36:27.920 that is necessary
00:36:29.000 to create
00:36:30.260 the something
00:36:30.720 out of nothing.
00:36:31.360 You know,
00:36:32.320 I would walk around
00:36:33.280 at 16,
00:36:34.340 15,
00:36:34.860 14 years old.
00:36:36.600 I would walk around
00:36:37.720 with a can
00:36:39.280 of black spray paint
00:36:40.280 in one hand
00:36:40.980 and a script
00:36:41.720 in the other
00:36:42.200 because I both had
00:36:43.140 lines to act
00:36:44.380 in the show
00:36:45.060 and I was
00:36:46.000 concerned with
00:36:47.520 touching up the paint
00:36:48.420 on the proscenium
00:36:49.160 at the front of
00:36:49.780 the stage
00:36:50.840 because I hated
00:36:52.060 that people would
00:36:52.620 come in and see
00:36:53.200 the dings
00:36:54.120 and the nicks
00:36:54.680 from where the set
00:36:55.340 had been built.
00:36:56.500 In other words,
00:36:57.320 everything that I was doing
00:36:58.260 was to try to
00:36:59.120 ultimately create
00:36:59.780 this aesthetic experience
00:37:00.920 and acting
00:37:01.880 was just in service
00:37:02.660 of that.
00:37:03.140 But I didn't know,
00:37:03.780 I like the maturity
00:37:04.620 to know that.
00:37:06.140 One of the things
00:37:06.680 I talk about
00:37:07.220 very often
00:37:07.700 is how I've gotten
00:37:08.960 to live a dream life,
00:37:10.200 truly, Dr. Peterson.
00:37:11.180 I'm in Croatia.
00:37:12.820 Three days ago,
00:37:13.640 I was in Italy.
00:37:14.260 Three days before that,
00:37:15.060 I was in Slovenia.
00:37:15.880 I was in Hungary.
00:37:17.720 You know,
00:37:18.780 but I live a dream life
00:37:19.880 in many ways
00:37:20.480 because I let my dreams die.
00:37:23.200 I had these dreams
00:37:24.340 as a young man
00:37:25.140 and they were very useful
00:37:26.440 for getting me
00:37:27.040 out the front door.
00:37:28.180 They were very useful
00:37:28.920 for putting me
00:37:29.540 on the path.
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00:38:37.580 But if I had held
00:38:42.560 to them too tightly,
00:38:44.840 the path would have
00:38:45.720 led to nowhere.
00:38:47.360 And because by God's grace,
00:38:48.540 I had to...
00:38:48.880 That's a great observation,
00:38:51.460 you know,
00:38:51.740 because I counsel people
00:38:54.160 to develop a vision
00:38:55.260 for their life
00:38:56.060 because if you don't have
00:38:57.680 a vision for your life,
00:38:58.680 you're going to be
00:38:59.380 playing a role
00:39:00.280 in someone else's vision
00:39:01.520 and it might not be
00:39:02.400 one you would award
00:39:03.280 to yourself.
00:39:04.320 But I also say,
00:39:05.440 don't assume
00:39:07.020 that it's the precise...
00:39:08.500 That the precise details
00:39:10.220 of this vision
00:39:10.920 are what going to unfold.
00:39:12.380 But actually,
00:39:13.540 what it is,
00:39:14.220 it's a self-correcting system.
00:39:16.400 As you aim up,
00:39:17.840 but you don't really know
00:39:18.680 what you're doing
00:39:19.280 and then you wander
00:39:20.080 towards that up
00:39:21.180 and as you go,
00:39:22.180 you collect more information
00:39:23.480 and that enables you
00:39:24.580 to modify the vision.
00:39:25.680 So I would say,
00:39:26.820 maybe tell me
00:39:27.460 what you think about this,
00:39:28.380 that it wasn't so much
00:39:29.220 that your dreams died,
00:39:30.540 is that as you pursued them,
00:39:32.240 they got sharper
00:39:33.060 and clearer.
00:39:33.800 And that meant
00:39:34.780 you had to leave
00:39:35.720 some of the excess detail behind.
00:39:39.400 But you do.
00:39:40.220 When you translate
00:39:41.560 a vague notion
00:39:43.520 like I'd like to go
00:39:44.460 to Hollywood
00:39:44.920 and be successful,
00:39:46.380 that's a pretty vague plan.
00:39:48.160 When you transfer that
00:39:49.240 into the real world,
00:39:50.200 that should sharpen, right?
00:39:51.600 You should find
00:39:52.260 your specific destiny.
00:39:54.420 And that's also,
00:39:55.140 by the way,
00:39:55.560 that's the bringing down
00:39:56.680 to earth
00:39:57.180 of the metanarrative, right?
00:39:58.980 I mean,
00:39:59.240 the metanarrative is
00:40:00.180 young man
00:40:01.540 from small town
00:40:02.760 goes to Hollywood
00:40:03.560 and makes good.
00:40:04.640 But there's not
00:40:05.340 a lot of detail in that.
00:40:07.120 And you flesh that out
00:40:09.200 as you move forward
00:40:10.120 and sharpen your vision.
00:40:11.540 And so you found
00:40:12.300 that you had specific talent
00:40:13.720 more on the production end.
00:40:15.240 So what did you discover
00:40:16.060 about yourself
00:40:16.660 that was relevant
00:40:17.440 to the production side
00:40:19.560 of things?
00:40:19.900 And how did that
00:40:20.480 tangle up
00:40:21.060 with the instantiation
00:40:24.380 of the Daily Wire
00:40:25.160 and then its expansion
00:40:26.260 into entertainment?
00:40:27.700 Well, I would say
00:40:28.140 when I was a child,
00:40:28.860 I thought as a child,
00:40:29.760 right?
00:40:29.940 I had this dream.
00:40:30.880 As you say,
00:40:31.360 it was nothing
00:40:33.000 if not ambiguous.
00:40:35.340 It seemed clear to me
00:40:36.900 because my exposure
00:40:37.660 to the world
00:40:38.160 had been so small.
00:40:39.560 You know,
00:40:39.780 go west,
00:40:40.780 make good,
00:40:41.400 as you say.
00:40:42.100 That seems substantial.
00:40:44.060 But of course,
00:40:44.760 anyone who's lived
00:40:45.580 any life as an adult
00:40:46.940 at all knows
00:40:47.500 that that's not substantial
00:40:48.500 in any way.
00:40:49.780 There's nothing there
00:40:50.620 you can hang your life on.
00:40:52.220 So I came to Hollywood
00:40:53.260 and I immediately
00:40:53.860 began failing.
00:40:54.720 In fact,
00:40:54.960 one of the great criticisms
00:40:55.860 that people make,
00:40:56.600 if you even read comments
00:40:58.120 about the kids' announcement
00:41:00.640 or the Snow White
00:41:01.200 announcement this week,
00:41:01.940 you'll read many people
00:41:02.660 saying,
00:41:03.400 Jeremy Boring
00:41:04.120 is a failed film producer.
00:41:05.520 He's at it again.
00:41:07.020 Failed screenwriter
00:41:07.920 Ben Shapiro.
00:41:09.080 And I always think
00:41:09.700 that's a very funny criticism.
00:41:11.200 I mean,
00:41:11.380 after all,
00:41:12.620 I don't say this
00:41:14.500 with any sense of arrogance.
00:41:15.400 I say it simply
00:41:16.080 as a matter of fact.
00:41:16.960 I'm quite successful.
00:41:19.240 In any material sense,
00:41:20.720 I am a quite successful person.
00:41:22.480 And that success
00:41:24.620 is built atop
00:41:26.140 all of the failures
00:41:27.120 that my detractors online
00:41:28.740 are trying to mock me for.
00:41:30.440 What they don't understand
00:41:32.060 is how proud I am
00:41:33.040 of those failures,
00:41:34.040 how instrumental
00:41:34.780 those failures were
00:41:35.760 in helping me
00:41:36.500 to come however far I've come.
00:41:39.480 And it'll be future failures
00:41:40.620 that take me wherever it is
00:41:41.840 that I ultimately go.
00:41:45.260 Well, you know,
00:41:46.420 a failure,
00:41:47.880 failure is a very interesting way
00:41:49.420 of thinking about something.
00:41:50.640 It's a foolish way
00:41:51.640 of thinking about something
00:41:52.660 if you're committed
00:41:53.680 to the end goal.
00:41:54.900 I mean,
00:41:55.120 what I've learned in my life
00:41:56.200 is that I've never done anything
00:41:58.740 that I actually did
00:42:01.280 that wasn't a success.
00:42:03.360 Now,
00:42:03.800 I'd add a coda to that,
00:42:05.180 which is
00:42:05.560 that doesn't mean
00:42:06.800 it succeeded
00:42:07.800 the way I thought it would.
00:42:09.980 Right?
00:42:10.280 Right.
00:42:10.460 So,
00:42:11.160 but if you put your heart
00:42:13.120 into something
00:42:13.860 and the original end
00:42:17.520 that you had conceived of
00:42:19.380 doesn't make itself manifest,
00:42:20.660 that doesn't mean
00:42:21.720 that you didn't learn
00:42:23.000 10,000 useful things
00:42:25.600 that you're going to be able
00:42:26.920 to apply
00:42:27.540 to the next project.
00:42:28.880 It also doesn't mean
00:42:29.720 that I've often salvaged projects
00:42:32.640 from years later
00:42:33.940 when I think,
00:42:34.880 oh, okay,
00:42:35.320 well, that didn't work out there,
00:42:36.500 but I've got all that sitting there
00:42:37.960 that I've mastered.
00:42:38.840 I can now apply it to this.
00:42:40.260 And I truly don't believe
00:42:41.860 that I've ever put my heart
00:42:43.140 into anything
00:42:43.900 in a committed way
00:42:45.080 that hasn't
00:42:46.080 really radically paid off
00:42:48.400 even though
00:42:48.900 the time frame
00:42:50.160 of that payoff
00:42:50.840 was indeterminate
00:42:51.700 and the potential initial goal
00:42:54.980 might not have been realized.
00:42:57.220 And the other thing
00:42:58.120 I would say
00:42:58.480 about the critics
00:42:59.220 who are criticizing
00:43:00.100 your repeated failures
00:43:01.740 is that they don't know anything
00:43:02.960 about entrepreneurial activity.
00:43:04.640 And I studied
00:43:05.500 entrepreneurial activity
00:43:06.580 technically
00:43:07.340 for a very long time.
00:43:09.180 And one of the things
00:43:09.960 that you see
00:43:10.520 with entrepreneurs
00:43:11.200 is that,
00:43:12.080 and you see this
00:43:12.680 with venture capital investors
00:43:14.860 is that
00:43:15.460 the ratio of failure
00:43:17.040 to success
00:43:17.620 is very high.
00:43:19.080 And you have to do
00:43:19.960 a lot of things
00:43:20.960 before something goes viral
00:43:22.660 and bears fruit.
00:43:23.700 But that doesn't mean
00:43:24.840 that all those other attempts
00:43:26.880 that didn't magically catch fire
00:43:29.200 were failures.
00:43:30.240 It just means
00:43:30.960 that you have to,
00:43:31.920 you have to do
00:43:33.060 a lot of things
00:43:33.660 before any one thing
00:43:35.000 really catches on.
00:43:36.460 And so if you think
00:43:37.360 that you can be successful
00:43:38.960 without failure,
00:43:41.260 you don't know anything
00:43:42.000 about how to be successful.
00:43:43.400 So that's just
00:43:43.920 a foolish criticism.
00:43:45.340 Now,
00:43:45.600 it does sound to me too
00:43:46.840 oddly though,
00:43:47.640 you know,
00:43:47.900 because people watching
00:43:49.080 and listening
00:43:49.580 and watching the Daily Wire,
00:43:51.500 their presumption
00:43:52.380 is going to be
00:43:53.260 something like,
00:43:54.060 and this would have been mine,
00:43:54.940 is that
00:43:55.240 all of the
00:43:56.740 major players
00:43:57.960 in the Daily Wire world
00:43:59.060 were basically
00:44:00.140 politically oriented people
00:44:01.460 who decided
00:44:02.240 to make a foray
00:44:03.260 into the entertainment world.
00:44:04.660 But what you're telling me
00:44:05.860 was that in your case,
00:44:07.180 and this might be true
00:44:07.940 with Shapiro too,
00:44:08.740 because I know
00:44:09.140 he was extremely
00:44:09.920 interested in music,
00:44:11.520 is that
00:44:11.900 you were actually
00:44:12.800 primarily interested
00:44:14.060 in entertainment,
00:44:16.240 so to speak.
00:44:17.000 It's not such a stupid word,
00:44:18.760 entertainment,
00:44:19.340 because that's not
00:44:19.980 what it is.
00:44:20.440 Let's call it culture.
00:44:21.640 You were primarily
00:44:22.440 interested in dramatic culture
00:44:24.240 rather than politics.
00:44:25.820 And so this is actually
00:44:26.620 for you,
00:44:27.140 this is actually
00:44:27.740 a return to what
00:44:29.340 you had originally
00:44:31.240 dreamed of
00:44:31.920 and envisioned.
00:44:33.200 Both in the general
00:44:34.660 and in the particular,
00:44:35.980 as you say,
00:44:36.860 I'm in Europe
00:44:37.240 producing this
00:44:38.240 Pendragon cycle.
00:44:39.120 When I was 20 years old,
00:44:41.540 21 years old,
00:44:42.660 sitting in an apartment
00:44:44.220 I couldn't afford
00:44:44.980 in the worst part
00:44:45.780 of the San Fernando Valley,
00:44:48.040 truly looking for quarters
00:44:49.860 under the couch
00:44:50.500 to see if I could afford
00:44:51.340 dollar menu jack-in-the-box,
00:44:53.220 I, as a teenager,
00:44:54.560 had been in love
00:44:55.240 with Stephen Lawhead's novels,
00:44:56.500 The Pendragon Cycle.
00:44:57.460 It's a young adult series
00:44:59.940 about Arthurian myth
00:45:01.240 and about the fall
00:45:02.100 of Roman Britain
00:45:03.340 and the sort of rise
00:45:04.200 of sub-Roman Britain
00:45:05.040 and the preservation
00:45:05.920 of Christianity
00:45:06.820 in this very small
00:45:08.600 Celtic area in Wales.
00:45:11.000 And it deeply shaped
00:45:12.320 my worldview.
00:45:13.060 I mean, these books
00:45:13.560 were incredibly formative
00:45:14.740 for me.
00:45:15.340 And at 21,
00:45:16.140 I've realized that
00:45:17.640 I can't make it
00:45:18.220 as an actor.
00:45:19.140 I don't really know
00:45:20.060 what my life is supposed to be.
00:45:21.500 I'm desperately poor.
00:45:23.940 And I started writing
00:45:25.780 adaptations of these novels.
00:45:27.520 I didn't own the right.
00:45:29.740 I had not optioned
00:45:31.260 the rights from the author
00:45:32.060 to write these adaptations.
00:45:33.400 I didn't even know
00:45:33.960 there was such a thing
00:45:34.720 as optioning the rights.
00:45:36.220 I was that young
00:45:37.600 and that naive.
00:45:38.460 And I labored for two years
00:45:40.320 trying to work on this.
00:45:41.880 And here I am
00:45:42.560 at the fulfillment
00:45:43.100 of this moment
00:45:43.640 where I'm actually producing
00:45:44.600 not only have I returned
00:45:46.320 to sort of my original dream
00:45:48.360 of making this cultural content
00:45:50.020 in the general,
00:45:50.900 but in the very particular.
00:45:52.280 But even that
00:45:53.020 wasn't by design.
00:45:54.740 It was by taking the steps
00:45:56.940 that were in front of me
00:45:57.900 by accepting the outcomes
00:46:00.340 that weren't the outcomes.
00:46:01.520 I didn't always accept
00:46:02.280 them gracefully,
00:46:03.660 but I ultimately,
00:46:05.380 because of grace,
00:46:06.180 was able to accept them
00:46:07.260 and therefore was able
00:46:08.840 to keep growing in life.
00:46:10.040 And the circle brought me
00:46:11.440 back around to this moment.
00:46:13.240 Yes, Ben Shapiro
00:46:14.000 was a virtuosic violinist
00:46:15.540 as a young man.
00:46:16.120 There's a beautiful video
00:46:16.900 of him playing the theme
00:46:18.120 from Schindler's List
00:46:19.080 for Larry King
00:46:20.220 when he's nine years old
00:46:21.800 or something.
00:46:22.720 Andrew Klavan,
00:46:23.440 who was there
00:46:23.860 from the very founding
00:46:24.580 of the Daily Wire,
00:46:26.140 obviously was a,
00:46:27.120 he had an entire life
00:46:28.360 as a fiction,
00:46:29.420 as a novelist
00:46:30.540 before he ever engaged
00:46:32.400 with politics at all.
00:46:33.620 He had written screenplays
00:46:34.740 for big Hollywood films
00:46:35.820 with Michael Douglas,
00:46:37.220 Clint Eastwood,
00:46:37.940 and others.
00:46:39.460 We were part of this
00:46:41.460 West Coast,
00:46:43.060 Breitbartian,
00:46:44.480 by which I mean
00:46:45.080 Andrew Breitbartian,
00:46:46.560 conservative moment
00:46:47.680 that happened
00:46:48.340 where all these
00:46:49.200 entertainment industry people
00:46:51.580 began to realize
00:46:52.880 that the culture
00:46:53.440 had slipped out
00:46:54.040 from under them
00:46:54.700 and through people
00:46:55.820 like Andrew Breitbart,
00:46:56.820 through organizations
00:46:57.440 like Friends of Abe,
00:46:58.360 which I ended up
00:46:59.080 being the executive director
00:47:00.320 of for five years in L.A.,
00:47:01.660 which was this underground group
00:47:03.680 of 2,500
00:47:04.400 entertainment industry professionals
00:47:06.860 who would meet in secret
00:47:08.580 for fear of being discovered
00:47:09.900 as conservatives,
00:47:11.660 would come together.
00:47:13.100 And that moment
00:47:14.720 was so unique
00:47:15.720 and it bore so much fruit.
00:47:17.800 And I think it's part of my Daily Wire
00:47:19.300 is unique.
00:47:20.260 We're unique, A,
00:47:20.960 because of the sort of
00:47:22.440 built-in worldview differences
00:47:25.180 between Shapiro, Boring,
00:47:26.280 and Robinson.
00:47:27.180 We're unique because
00:47:28.320 we came out of this milieu
00:47:29.780 of cultural entertainment,
00:47:32.280 West Coast conservatism
00:47:33.540 that happened in L.A.
00:47:35.040 in the mid-2000s,
00:47:37.100 this very unique moment in time.
00:47:39.220 And we're unique
00:47:40.140 because we don't pander
00:47:40.920 to our audience.
00:47:42.020 We're unique because
00:47:42.780 we're lowercase r Republicans,
00:47:44.680 because we believe
00:47:45.420 that our job is,
00:47:46.400 yes, never to betray
00:47:48.280 our audience,
00:47:49.340 yes, to represent
00:47:50.560 our audience,
00:47:51.360 but also to lead
00:47:52.580 our audiences.
00:47:53.880 You know, we don't
00:47:55.320 give our audience
00:47:56.060 exactly what they think
00:47:57.140 that they want
00:47:57.720 because our belief is
00:47:58.840 that they don't actually
00:47:59.840 want what they may think
00:48:01.340 superficially that they want.
00:48:02.980 Right?
00:48:03.480 Now, that doesn't mean
00:48:04.160 I have the right
00:48:04.620 to betray my audience,
00:48:05.600 to give them what they
00:48:06.220 decidedly do not want.
00:48:07.780 But people will write in
00:48:08.780 all the time and say,
00:48:09.560 when are you going to
00:48:10.160 make a Christian movie?
00:48:11.960 Well, I know they don't
00:48:12.880 actually want a Christian movie.
00:48:14.100 I know that because I see
00:48:15.260 the box office numbers
00:48:16.240 for those types of movies,
00:48:19.740 right?
00:48:19.940 I know that what they're
00:48:22.840 crying out for
00:48:23.900 is for Christians,
00:48:25.480 for example,
00:48:26.140 to make truly entertaining
00:48:28.060 and meaningful content
00:48:29.600 for them.
00:48:30.620 The way that they express that.
00:48:32.360 Right, right, right.
00:48:32.480 If you're a populist,
00:48:34.160 you would just give them
00:48:34.760 exactly what they're expressing.
00:48:36.940 But giving them
00:48:37.740 exactly what they're—
00:48:38.320 Well, that misses
00:48:38.420 that transcendental axis.
00:48:40.500 It misses the vertical.
00:48:41.360 This is the problem
00:48:42.560 with leading by poll.
00:48:44.660 That's right.
00:48:45.080 One of the things
00:48:45.580 you learn as a research
00:48:46.620 psychologist is that
00:48:47.740 it's not that easy
00:48:48.500 to figure out
00:48:49.060 what people think.
00:48:50.280 And you can't find out
00:48:51.440 just by asking them
00:48:52.700 one question.
00:48:54.160 First of all,
00:48:54.740 the question sets up
00:48:55.980 the answer.
00:48:56.640 So you have to ask them
00:48:57.880 a whole panoply of questions
00:48:59.420 to get anything near anything
00:49:01.620 like their actual opinions.
00:49:03.920 And then it is also
00:49:05.300 the case that,
00:49:06.920 so what does it mean
00:49:08.080 to lead under
00:49:08.820 those circumstances?
00:49:10.000 Well, this is where
00:49:10.280 the for-profit mechanism
00:49:13.200 is so powerful
00:49:14.140 because I have
00:49:15.680 two conversations
00:49:16.540 with my audience.
00:49:17.720 I have the polling conversation,
00:49:19.880 what do you want?
00:49:21.260 And they tell me
00:49:22.020 what they want to want.
00:49:24.520 But then I have
00:49:25.140 my for-profit conversation,
00:49:26.800 which is where
00:49:27.240 I give them options,
00:49:28.520 and they tell me
00:49:29.260 with their actions
00:49:30.060 what they actually want.
00:49:31.680 Right, exactly, right.
00:49:33.020 Huge difference there.
00:49:34.700 There's a kind of content
00:49:35.740 that we all want to want.
00:49:37.940 And then there's
00:49:38.520 the kind of content
00:49:39.180 that we actually want,
00:49:40.620 that we actually engage with.
00:49:42.540 And that's what we're trying
00:49:44.260 to do at The Daily Wire.
00:49:45.240 We are trying to give
00:49:46.200 our audience what they want,
00:49:47.800 just not necessarily
00:49:48.680 what they want to want.
00:49:50.760 That's the tension
00:49:52.620 that we're living in.
00:49:53.300 Well, that's what
00:49:54.560 a real political leader
00:49:56.180 should do, too,
00:49:57.380 is rather than...
00:49:58.680 And I've seen some...
00:49:59.460 I've actually seen
00:50:00.280 many, many political leaders
00:50:01.600 founder on exactly
00:50:02.720 this problem
00:50:03.540 because they start out
00:50:05.200 motivated by commitment
00:50:07.020 to a set of principles,
00:50:08.220 assuming they're not just,
00:50:09.560 you know,
00:50:09.840 the psychopathic types
00:50:10.920 are out for themselves,
00:50:11.800 but they start by being
00:50:12.900 motivated by a set of principles.
00:50:14.460 And then they ally themselves
00:50:16.060 with political consultants
00:50:17.420 because they're afraid
00:50:18.480 of their own inexperience.
00:50:20.140 they hire people
00:50:21.560 to run their campaign,
00:50:23.400 which you can't do
00:50:24.740 because it's your campaign.
00:50:26.360 They hire people
00:50:27.080 to write their speeches,
00:50:28.360 and then they just get transformed
00:50:29.960 into another
00:50:30.760 stamped political product,
00:50:32.560 and they almost always fail.
00:50:35.020 Right?
00:50:35.300 And so you need that.
00:50:37.560 You can't rely on
00:50:40.720 foolish sampling
00:50:42.320 of public opinion
00:50:43.320 to govern
00:50:43.840 what you're going to offer
00:50:44.860 because the public
00:50:45.840 is striving towards something,
00:50:48.140 but if they had it,
00:50:51.880 they could describe it.
00:50:53.080 But if they're aspiring towards it,
00:50:55.000 they're still stumbling
00:50:55.880 towards its description,
00:50:57.000 and then it's incumbent
00:50:57.980 on the leaders
00:50:58.700 to listen
00:50:59.480 and to take them
00:51:01.620 to the next step,
00:51:02.380 and that is what
00:51:02.960 a great storyteller should do,
00:51:04.620 and the failure to do that
00:51:06.340 will be punished
00:51:06.940 by the market
00:51:07.580 because a Christian movie
00:51:10.400 could be just as
00:51:11.760 propagandistic and dull
00:51:13.140 and is very much likely to be.
00:51:14.680 Like, if it's explicitly Christian,
00:51:16.420 it's because it's not a movie.
00:51:18.140 It's a piece of propaganda
00:51:19.860 designed to push
00:51:20.920 really what's a political agenda,
00:51:22.800 not even a religious agenda.
00:51:24.160 It's a political agenda
00:51:25.060 disguised as a religious agenda,
00:51:26.760 and certainly,
00:51:28.000 people who proclaim
00:51:29.080 their Christianity
00:51:29.980 all too loudly
00:51:31.100 are just as likely
00:51:32.540 to fall prey
00:51:33.260 to that temptation
00:51:34.060 as anyone else.
00:51:35.080 What people want
00:51:36.060 is a story
00:51:36.720 that captures
00:51:37.300 their imagination,
00:51:38.700 right?
00:51:38.900 And the imagination, too,
00:51:40.840 it's different than...
00:51:42.120 So the neural system
00:51:44.420 that governs the imagination
00:51:45.800 is a different system
00:51:47.360 than the system
00:51:48.080 that governs
00:51:48.840 linguistic content.
00:51:51.040 It's more archaic.
00:51:52.780 It's more emotional.
00:51:54.040 It's more instinctual.
00:51:55.400 It's less attuned
00:51:56.500 to the moment.
00:51:57.520 It's less specific
00:51:58.940 and adapted to immediacy.
00:52:01.400 So it's got a local impracticality,
00:52:04.640 but it's got a medium
00:52:06.260 to long-term vision,
00:52:08.660 a much broader vision.
00:52:09.940 And great cultural drama
00:52:14.460 appeals to the imagination,
00:52:16.520 and it has to be
00:52:17.600 of the pattern
00:52:18.640 of the imagination.
00:52:20.160 And that may be
00:52:21.040 quite distinct.
00:52:21.820 Like, one of the things
00:52:22.420 I've really been struck with,
00:52:23.480 for example,
00:52:24.840 is just as political correctness
00:52:28.240 hit its height,
00:52:29.820 the Marvel universe
00:52:31.260 became most popular.
00:52:33.300 And it was fascinating
00:52:34.740 for me to watch
00:52:35.560 because Tony Stark
00:52:36.880 is as close to a fascist
00:52:38.600 as any Hollywood hero
00:52:40.920 has ever been, right?
00:52:42.320 I mean, he's a military-industrial,
00:52:45.140 self-absorbed,
00:52:46.720 hyper-Ayn Rand capitalist, right?
00:52:49.480 So he's as far away
00:52:50.820 from woke as you could be.
00:52:53.240 And then,
00:52:53.920 and so that was
00:52:54.640 extremely interesting to see.
00:52:56.160 Although the Marvel people,
00:52:58.440 until recently,
00:52:59.300 never took the bait.
00:53:00.180 They never got political.
00:53:01.640 And so they kept the politics
00:53:03.980 implicit in the story.
00:53:06.460 And then I watched
00:53:07.520 The Black Widow
00:53:08.400 with Scarlett Johansson.
00:53:09.760 And you couldn't have come up
00:53:11.120 with a more anti-woke movie
00:53:12.700 if you would have scripted it
00:53:14.220 for that purpose.
00:53:15.280 And, but because that wasn't
00:53:16.780 why it was scripted,
00:53:17.720 it was successful.
00:53:18.480 I mean, The Black Widow
00:53:19.860 was literally about
00:53:21.160 a communist demagogue,
00:53:24.780 quasi-god,
00:53:25.860 who lived in the sky,
00:53:27.000 who was a remnant
00:53:28.040 of the communist empire,
00:53:29.500 taking over the minds
00:53:31.400 of young women
00:53:32.460 and destabilizing
00:53:34.580 the whole world.
00:53:35.280 It's like, well, yeah,
00:53:36.660 it looks like that's happening.
00:53:37.940 And then what was so strange,
00:53:39.300 too, is that Johansson,
00:53:41.320 who was the savior
00:53:42.340 in the narrative,
00:53:44.540 the only reason that she
00:53:46.060 was able to break the hold
00:53:48.660 of this propaganda
00:53:49.700 on the minds
00:53:50.700 of her female compatriots
00:53:52.080 was because she had been
00:53:53.160 raised in something
00:53:54.760 approximating a loving
00:53:56.400 nuclear family,
00:53:57.440 even though it was,
00:53:58.460 it was deeply flawed
00:54:00.240 and partly false.
00:54:01.660 And so,
00:54:02.080 so why am I saying all that?
00:54:04.140 Well, it's because
00:54:04.860 you will get punished
00:54:06.820 by the market
00:54:07.460 if you do turn
00:54:09.000 your cultural dramas
00:54:12.060 into political propaganda.
00:54:14.220 And it's also very comical
00:54:15.840 to see the weird reversal
00:54:17.240 here, too,
00:54:17.780 because what you see
00:54:18.800 happening in Hollywood
00:54:19.760 is that the actors
00:54:22.500 dream of being
00:54:23.660 political activists.
00:54:25.540 And they seem,
00:54:26.540 I've had conversations
00:54:27.520 with Hollywood actors
00:54:28.500 about this.
00:54:29.020 I said,
00:54:29.360 look,
00:54:29.580 you guys are already,
00:54:31.180 you already occupy
00:54:32.100 a kind of pinnacle.
00:54:33.780 Why would you subordinate
00:54:35.380 that pinnacle
00:54:36.280 to the political?
00:54:37.520 You're subordinating
00:54:38.500 the greater,
00:54:39.720 the dramatic culture
00:54:40.880 to the lesser.
00:54:41.580 Now,
00:54:41.780 you guys are taking
00:54:42.580 the reverse tack,
00:54:43.700 eh?
00:54:43.860 Because you made
00:54:45.060 your largest scale success
00:54:47.560 in an essentially
00:54:48.580 political realm,
00:54:49.520 and now you want to
00:54:50.220 transcend that
00:54:50.920 and move into the cultural.
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00:56:09.340 So, it's very fascinating
00:56:14.040 to watch this.
00:56:15.440 Well, I've,
00:56:16.300 I watched,
00:56:18.520 I have lived through,
00:56:19.680 I think,
00:56:20.320 the most rapid
00:56:21.100 political transformation
00:56:23.380 on,
00:56:24.620 probably,
00:56:26.300 in human history.
00:56:27.640 I mean, in 2008,
00:56:29.160 Barack Obama
00:56:29.740 could not be elected
00:56:30.620 president as a Democrat
00:56:31.920 if he opposed gay marriage.
00:56:34.420 And in 2012,
00:56:35.980 Barack Obama
00:56:36.480 could not be elected
00:56:37.240 as a Democrat
00:56:38.180 if he,
00:56:38.840 I'm sorry,
00:56:39.940 yeah,
00:56:40.600 he could not be elected
00:56:41.960 in 2008
00:56:42.780 if he supported gay marriage,
00:56:44.120 I'm sorry,
00:56:44.640 and he could not be elected
00:56:45.760 in 2012
00:56:46.300 if he opposed gay marriage.
00:56:48.980 In four years,
00:56:52.480 there was that rapid
00:56:53.660 a change on an issue
00:56:54.760 so deeply fundamental
00:56:56.880 about which there were
00:56:57.600 such deeply held beliefs,
00:56:59.080 such deeply held passions.
00:57:00.640 How could that change
00:57:01.660 so quickly
00:57:02.120 and what changed
00:57:02.700 obviously is culture?
00:57:04.640 And we could,
00:57:06.000 you know,
00:57:06.320 we can debate
00:57:06.940 whether that was good
00:57:07.960 or bad
00:57:08.420 or was it some good
00:57:09.260 and some bad,
00:57:09.840 that's not even
00:57:10.460 the conversation
00:57:10.920 I'm trying to engage in.
00:57:11.980 I'm only interested
00:57:12.720 in the fact of it
00:57:13.700 and the fact
00:57:15.220 that the Overton window
00:57:16.780 had shifted so far
00:57:17.920 and what shifted it,
00:57:19.760 you know,
00:57:20.460 80% of what shifted it
00:57:21.840 was a single
00:57:22.720 network television show
00:57:24.480 called Will and Grace
00:57:25.360 that for the first time
00:57:27.520 on NBC,
00:57:28.300 on the biggest network
00:57:29.040 for comedy,
00:57:30.100 every single day,
00:57:31.700 you know,
00:57:32.040 15 million people
00:57:33.260 brought into their homes
00:57:34.360 these vibrant,
00:57:36.640 wonderful characters
00:57:37.400 who were gay
00:57:38.000 and it fundamentally
00:57:39.380 transformed how
00:57:40.580 they saw that issue.
00:57:42.780 That is,
00:57:43.640 that is a power
00:57:45.000 that politicians
00:57:45.640 obviously don't have.
00:57:47.520 If they did,
00:57:48.320 Barack Obama
00:57:48.800 wouldn't have had
00:57:49.260 to have changed.
00:57:49.720 He always supported
00:57:50.520 gay marriage.
00:57:51.360 So you would have
00:57:51.940 never heard him
00:57:52.500 oppose gay marriage
00:57:53.440 in the first place
00:57:54.420 if politics is where
00:57:55.400 the real power lives.
00:57:57.820 Politics is incredibly
00:57:58.960 powerful,
00:57:59.620 of course,
00:58:00.240 but it has to operate
00:58:01.800 within a cultural window
00:58:02.820 and the real failure
00:58:04.520 of the right in America
00:58:05.560 in my lifetime
00:58:06.240 is that they ceded
00:58:07.200 all of that ground
00:58:08.120 almost completely
00:58:09.180 to the left.
00:58:11.960 Right, right.
00:58:12.960 Okay, so let's,
00:58:14.360 I've got two threads
00:58:15.540 to walk off on
00:58:17.080 from that point.
00:58:18.120 The first is,
00:58:19.380 this has been
00:58:20.960 a weird reversal too.
00:58:22.040 I mean,
00:58:22.160 one of the strangest things
00:58:23.220 I've seen in the last decade
00:58:24.700 and I've seen a lot
00:58:25.720 of strange things
00:58:26.540 in the last decade,
00:58:27.520 by the way,
00:58:28.020 was the Babylon Bee
00:58:29.660 comedians
00:58:32.400 interview Jonathan Pajot.
00:58:34.900 It was a preposterous
00:58:36.480 interview
00:58:36.860 because Pajot
00:58:37.720 was speaking
00:58:38.240 very seriously
00:58:39.200 about the architectural
00:58:40.840 and mythological
00:58:41.720 significance
00:58:42.680 of the monsters
00:58:44.300 on the outside
00:58:45.360 of medieval cathedrals
00:58:47.160 and relating that
00:58:48.500 to the fuzzy edges
00:58:50.580 of cognitive
00:58:51.340 and perceptual categories,
00:58:52.800 which is a very
00:58:53.620 sophisticated
00:58:54.240 intellectual discussion
00:58:55.960 and these idiot
00:58:57.060 commentators
00:58:57.960 from the Babylon Bee,
00:58:58.980 and I mean idiot
00:58:59.700 in the best possible way,
00:59:01.020 were cracking
00:59:01.620 absurd jokes
00:59:02.460 in the background
00:59:03.140 and acting like frat boys
00:59:04.460 and being very comical
00:59:06.520 but keeping up
00:59:07.640 with the conversation
00:59:08.620 and Pajot was cracking
00:59:10.080 jokes along with them
00:59:11.060 and keeping up
00:59:11.640 quite nicely
00:59:12.300 and that was all done
00:59:14.280 in the name
00:59:14.720 of Christian satire,
00:59:16.520 which is like,
00:59:17.320 what do you mean
00:59:17.760 Christian satire?
00:59:19.300 Christian satire?
00:59:20.360 I mean,
00:59:20.600 I think the Babylon Bee
00:59:21.880 has taken out the onion.
00:59:23.540 That's what it looks like
00:59:24.360 to me.
00:59:25.140 And it's like,
00:59:26.180 what the hell?
00:59:27.740 Where did Christian satirists
00:59:29.260 come from?
00:59:29.860 And so,
00:59:30.580 I'm curious here,
00:59:31.460 what do you think's going on?
00:59:32.480 The first is,
00:59:33.300 how did you reconcile
00:59:34.460 the conflict
00:59:35.920 between a kind of
00:59:37.160 traditional Christian,
00:59:38.960 Protestant,
00:59:39.700 American evangelism
00:59:41.040 and the entertainment industry?
00:59:42.560 Because that's quite
00:59:43.880 the damn gulf
00:59:44.720 and why do you think
00:59:48.080 that can be successfully
00:59:49.260 broached,
00:59:49.940 that gulf?
00:59:50.540 Why do you think
00:59:51.080 it should be?
00:59:51.800 I mean,
00:59:52.040 you talked about
00:59:53.040 the importance of culture
00:59:54.080 but that doesn't mean
00:59:54.840 that you should dance
00:59:55.700 with the devil,
00:59:56.760 you know,
00:59:57.000 to lead people
00:59:57.820 down the appropriate road
00:59:59.120 and that must have,
01:00:01.580 the Hollywood culture,
01:00:02.660 even though you wanted
01:00:03.160 to be part of it,
01:00:03.900 there must have,
01:00:04.660 there must have been
01:00:05.160 a moral quandary there.
01:00:06.940 Oh yeah,
01:00:07.220 people would always say
01:00:08.140 in Hollywood,
01:00:08.840 in Christian Hollywood
01:00:09.960 when I was in my 20s,
01:00:10.920 they would say,
01:00:11.240 we have to reclaim
01:00:11.860 Hollywood for Christ
01:00:12.820 and I would be like,
01:00:13.800 guys,
01:00:14.720 he was never here.
01:00:17.780 Right, right, right.
01:00:19.160 All the best bands
01:00:20.080 are with Satan
01:00:20.820 as Bart Simpson said.
01:00:23.040 Yeah, right.
01:00:23.700 That's right.
01:00:24.500 I think that it is
01:00:25.340 American Protestantism
01:00:26.520 that's part of it
01:00:27.300 for me though.
01:00:28.280 You know,
01:00:28.820 I'm decidedly not
01:00:30.440 Catholic
01:00:31.280 or mainline Protestant.
01:00:33.340 I didn't grow up
01:00:34.200 in a church
01:00:34.860 that has
01:00:35.780 deep historic roots
01:00:38.920 and so I think
01:00:40.820 probably,
01:00:41.520 if I'm being honest
01:00:42.360 with myself.
01:00:43.240 You know,
01:00:43.500 I know a lot of people
01:00:44.440 who grow up in,
01:00:46.600 who are very devoted
01:00:47.600 Catholics
01:00:48.060 or very devoted
01:00:49.020 Episcopalians,
01:00:50.120 very devoted
01:00:50.660 Presbyterians.
01:00:51.920 I don't even know
01:00:52.800 if they believe
01:00:53.600 in Christ.
01:00:54.620 I don't know
01:00:54.800 if they even believe
01:00:55.500 in the Bible
01:00:56.020 but they certainly
01:00:57.860 have had
01:00:58.560 enormous benefit
01:00:59.760 and enormous structure
01:01:00.540 put in their life
01:01:01.220 by these traditions.
01:01:02.740 Probably even more precisely,
01:01:04.080 I know many Anglicans
01:01:04.980 who fit that description.
01:01:06.740 You know,
01:01:06.760 they're incredibly intelligent
01:01:08.480 and they understand
01:01:09.420 the value
01:01:10.100 of their church
01:01:10.820 but they don't
01:01:11.220 necessarily believe
01:01:12.400 that it's true
01:01:13.380 and I understand that.
01:01:14.540 I think that that's
01:01:15.100 a somewhat tragic view
01:01:17.560 but I think that it's
01:01:18.280 a perfectly relatable view
01:01:20.200 especially if you're
01:01:21.440 in one of those institutions
01:01:22.340 that has such history.
01:01:24.280 But I didn't grow up
01:01:25.180 in that kind
01:01:25.640 of an institution.
01:01:26.700 I grew up in
01:01:27.480 a kind of American
01:01:29.100 evangelicalism
01:01:29.980 that I think
01:01:30.400 is somewhat ungrounded
01:01:32.360 in many ways
01:01:33.960 that I think are actually,
01:01:34.860 you know,
01:01:35.000 as an adult
01:01:35.420 I can say in many ways
01:01:36.260 that I think are bad
01:01:37.100 but one of the benefits
01:01:38.800 that it has
01:01:39.720 and one of the benefits
01:01:40.380 that it gave to me
01:01:41.160 is probably
01:01:42.240 my belief in God
01:01:45.160 is because of narrative.
01:01:47.040 It's not because
01:01:47.980 of institution.
01:01:49.200 In other words,
01:01:50.020 I came to believe in God
01:01:51.180 because of the story of God
01:01:52.720 because of the redemptive
01:01:53.760 story of Christ
01:01:54.700 and so in that sense
01:01:56.760 I understand
01:01:57.280 the power of story.
01:01:58.820 You know,
01:01:58.960 we are interesting creatures
01:02:00.920 aren't we
01:02:01.300 because we're both
01:02:02.740 material and immaterial,
01:02:04.220 right?
01:02:04.600 We're meat
01:02:05.300 and we are the thing
01:02:06.060 that transcends meat
01:02:07.120 and it's very hard
01:02:08.100 to know where the line
01:02:09.240 between those two things
01:02:10.380 is probably because
01:02:11.960 in a sort of ultimate sense
01:02:13.160 there isn't one.
01:02:14.600 It's very hard to understand
01:02:15.540 where illnesses begin.
01:02:17.440 You and I,
01:02:17.800 I mean,
01:02:18.000 you far more than me
01:02:18.800 but certainly both of us
01:02:19.760 in our life
01:02:20.280 have seen
01:02:21.300 bad thoughts
01:02:23.340 actually lead
01:02:25.640 to physical destruction
01:02:26.740 and so,
01:02:28.260 you know,
01:02:28.420 did the thing
01:02:29.620 that began
01:02:30.440 in the physical world
01:02:32.180 transcend it
01:02:33.020 into the spiritual world
01:02:34.060 for a person
01:02:34.660 and certainly
01:02:35.580 if you believe
01:02:36.440 any of the stories
01:02:37.360 of the Bible,
01:02:38.680 the New Testament
01:02:39.140 or the Old,
01:02:39.800 you must believe
01:02:40.620 that there are things
01:02:41.200 that start in the spiritual
01:02:42.140 that then manifest themselves
01:02:43.500 in the physical.
01:02:44.580 Somehow that door swings
01:02:46.280 both ways.
01:02:47.760 We don't fully understand that.
01:02:49.240 The problem though
01:02:50.020 with the sort of conservatism
01:02:51.380 you described earlier,
01:02:52.580 the conservatism
01:02:53.440 that doesn't care
01:02:54.480 about narrative,
01:02:55.300 that doesn't care
01:02:55.960 about aesthetic,
01:02:57.420 my argument would be,
01:02:58.240 yes,
01:02:58.480 but narrative and aesthetic
01:02:59.720 care about you.
01:03:01.460 Right,
01:03:01.900 right,
01:03:02.240 that's for sure.
01:03:03.780 Narrative is real.
01:03:05.040 Narrative is an active force
01:03:06.840 in the world
01:03:07.420 and so,
01:03:08.160 the narrative impacted me
01:03:10.380 and changed my life
01:03:11.580 and so,
01:03:12.620 it's that understanding
01:03:13.480 of the power of narrative
01:03:14.640 that caused me
01:03:15.240 to be drawn
01:03:15.760 in that direction.
01:03:17.800 Okay,
01:03:18.200 okay,
01:03:18.540 well,
01:03:18.920 you know,
01:03:19.320 I'm writing this new book
01:03:20.560 called We Who Wrestle
01:03:21.520 with God
01:03:22.040 and it's going quite nicely
01:03:24.340 and one of the arguments
01:03:26.100 that I lay out in there
01:03:27.200 and I believe this
01:03:28.120 to be true
01:03:30.180 at multiple levels
01:03:31.880 simultaneously,
01:03:32.800 it's true scientifically,
01:03:34.200 it's true philosophically,
01:03:36.000 it's true metaphysically,
01:03:37.280 it's true religiously,
01:03:38.200 all of that
01:03:38.720 is that a description
01:03:40.660 of the structure
01:03:42.000 through which we perceive
01:03:43.840 the world
01:03:44.500 is a story.
01:03:46.520 That's what a story is
01:03:47.560 and you cannot perceive
01:03:49.140 the world without a story.
01:03:50.320 This is why the empiricists
01:03:51.620 and the postmodernists
01:03:52.600 got this right,
01:03:53.400 by the way.
01:03:54.000 This is why the empiricists
01:03:55.320 are wrong.
01:03:56.400 There's a trillion facts.
01:03:58.940 You have to rank order them
01:04:00.580 in terms of their value
01:04:01.620 and a description
01:04:02.780 of that rank ordering
01:04:03.880 is a story.
01:04:05.260 So when you watch someone
01:04:06.420 on screen
01:04:07.100 walk through their life,
01:04:09.340 what you're seeing
01:04:10.200 are the choices they make,
01:04:12.600 the value choices they make
01:04:14.000 and the consequences
01:04:14.940 and we're so interested in that
01:04:16.620 because we want to fill in
01:04:17.820 our narrative
01:04:18.320 so that we have
01:04:19.220 a narrative
01:04:19.960 that will allow us
01:04:21.300 to orient ourselves
01:04:22.120 in the world properly
01:04:23.020 and the biblical narrative
01:04:24.580 is the meta-narrative
01:04:26.580 of Western culture
01:04:27.520 and there's no escaping that.
01:04:29.380 Now,
01:04:29.800 what the postmodernists
01:04:31.360 did wrong
01:04:31.960 after realizing
01:04:32.940 that we saw the world
01:04:33.920 through a story
01:04:35.000 was insist that
01:04:36.480 that story was one of power
01:04:38.120 and if you think
01:04:39.720 the ruler of the world
01:04:41.120 is the person
01:04:42.120 who wields the most power,
01:04:44.140 you are literally
01:04:45.620 the farthest thing
01:04:46.440 from a Christian
01:04:47.000 you could possibly be
01:04:48.160 because the entire
01:04:49.440 Judeo-Christian narrative,
01:04:51.040 Moses,
01:04:51.560 we talked about this
01:04:52.280 in the Exodus seminar,
01:04:53.960 Moses is forbidden
01:04:55.120 from entering
01:04:56.180 the promised land
01:04:57.200 even though
01:04:58.220 he had led
01:04:59.320 the Israelites faithfully
01:05:00.660 for decades
01:05:01.420 under the most
01:05:02.180 appalling conditions
01:05:03.380 merely because
01:05:04.460 he uses force once
01:05:06.480 when God tells him
01:05:07.940 instead to use his words
01:05:09.380 and that's it.
01:05:10.460 It's like the punishment is
01:05:11.560 hey,
01:05:12.040 you're right on the border
01:05:12.740 of the promised land
01:05:13.520 but you used your staff
01:05:15.500 to hit the rocks
01:05:16.380 when you were told to speak
01:05:17.720 and you don't get to proceed
01:05:19.400 and so
01:05:20.140 you made yourself God.
01:05:21.340 It's not just
01:05:22.280 well and you also
01:05:24.280 made the assumption
01:05:25.140 that you
01:05:25.700 that's exactly right
01:05:26.760 you used force
01:05:28.920 you used your ability
01:05:29.980 to compel
01:05:30.820 when you should have
01:05:32.380 used your ability
01:05:33.340 to invite
01:05:34.120 and to entice
01:05:35.260 you didn't tell
01:05:36.200 the right story
01:05:37.020 you used force
01:05:38.040 Thomas Jefferson makes
01:05:38.700 this brilliant
01:05:39.400 Thomas Jefferson
01:05:40.580 makes a brilliant argument
01:05:41.640 in his
01:05:42.200 he wrote the
01:05:44.420 Virginia Charter
01:05:45.440 of Religious Freedom
01:05:46.360 and in the
01:05:47.980 in the preamble
01:05:49.140 to the Virginia Charter
01:05:50.300 of Religious Freedom
01:05:51.100 I won't quote it
01:05:52.380 because I would misquote it
01:05:53.380 but he essentially says
01:05:54.980 since God alone
01:05:57.480 has both the power
01:05:58.720 and the right
01:06:00.160 to compel us
01:06:01.920 to believe
01:06:02.760 and since he chose
01:06:04.760 not to
01:06:05.400 who would we be
01:06:07.260 to do otherwise
01:06:08.060 right
01:06:09.360 great
01:06:09.700 great
01:06:10.240 yeah
01:06:10.540 great
01:06:10.900 absolutely
01:06:11.480 well that
01:06:12.200 yeah
01:06:12.480 yeah
01:06:12.840 precisely
01:06:13.420 and that
01:06:14.140 and the insistence
01:06:15.240 that in the Judeo-Christian
01:06:17.340 tradition
01:06:18.100 that we do have
01:06:19.000 true choice
01:06:19.560 true free choice
01:06:21.040 and that we can use
01:06:22.060 that in the moral domain
01:06:22.940 and that is being
01:06:23.660 reserved to us
01:06:24.700 that is part and parcel
01:06:26.520 of the notion
01:06:27.240 that we have
01:06:27.880 responsibility
01:06:29.140 and the right
01:06:30.160 to our own destiny
01:06:31.160 I mean
01:06:31.780 one of the things
01:06:32.700 you see
01:06:33.100 I've been
01:06:33.480 I've been writing
01:06:34.060 about the prophet
01:06:34.720 Elijah
01:06:35.200 in this new book
01:06:36.600 and Elijah
01:06:37.600 is an interesting figure
01:06:38.580 because he's one
01:06:39.240 of the prophets
01:06:39.800 that shows up
01:06:40.660 on the mount
01:06:41.140 when Christ is
01:06:41.960 transfigured
01:06:42.620 it's Moses and Elijah
01:06:43.820 and it's like
01:06:44.380 you might ask
01:06:44.920 well who's Elijah
01:06:45.780 right
01:06:46.120 you know who Moses is
01:06:47.120 but Elijah
01:06:48.280 is the first person
01:06:50.000 first of all
01:06:50.920 to take a stance
01:06:51.980 against that
01:06:53.460 no he's the most
01:06:54.460 outstanding exemplar
01:06:55.860 of the people
01:06:56.380 who took a stance
01:06:57.240 against deifying nature
01:06:59.080 so he's the enemy
01:07:00.800 of the prophets
01:07:01.460 of Baal
01:07:02.020 and Baal is a nature god
01:07:03.620 right
01:07:03.900 the god of the earthquake
01:07:04.840 the god of the environmentalists
01:07:06.700 Baal is a variant
01:07:08.280 of Gaia
01:07:08.880 although he's male
01:07:09.760 and so
01:07:10.500 and Elijah realizes
01:07:12.220 that whatever god is
01:07:13.300 is not nature
01:07:14.700 despite nature's
01:07:15.880 awesome capacity
01:07:17.100 and ability
01:07:17.880 to elicit something
01:07:19.500 you know
01:07:20.840 approximating
01:07:21.760 admiration
01:07:22.280 and awe
01:07:23.480 it's not
01:07:24.140 it's not the earthquake
01:07:25.440 and it's not the
01:07:26.360 it's not the hurricane
01:07:27.760 it's not the storm
01:07:28.780 it's instead
01:07:30.080 the still small voice
01:07:31.520 within
01:07:31.880 that's where that line
01:07:32.800 comes from
01:07:33.420 and so
01:07:34.420 and so there's
01:07:35.600 so that
01:07:36.700 that the conscience
01:07:37.940 has to be free
01:07:38.920 in that regard
01:07:39.800 and and that's
01:07:41.960 all right
01:07:42.300 so let me ask you
01:07:43.240 another question here
01:07:44.080 so the other thing
01:07:45.620 that people are going
01:07:46.220 to be skeptical about
01:07:47.200 I'm less skeptical
01:07:48.100 about this now
01:07:49.000 you know
01:07:49.280 because I've
01:07:49.920 worked with some
01:07:50.980 of your very talented
01:07:51.860 people
01:07:52.280 Jonathan Hay
01:07:52.940 and Elliot Feld
01:07:53.640 for example
01:07:54.240 brilliant editors
01:07:55.640 brilliant
01:07:56.240 and being an editor
01:07:57.140 is very hard work
01:07:58.160 and they're very good
01:07:59.200 at it
01:07:59.440 they can get to
01:08:00.020 the core of a story
01:08:00.900 and I've seen them
01:08:01.460 do that multiple times
01:08:02.500 that takes a very
01:08:03.820 special talent
01:08:04.620 and someone who's awake
01:08:05.920 you know
01:08:06.540 that's hard
01:08:07.120 now
01:08:07.720 where are you
01:08:09.360 getting your talent
01:08:10.300 and how do you
01:08:11.900 select them
01:08:12.340 on the creative side
01:08:13.340 you know
01:08:13.900 because you'd think
01:08:14.640 well who's going
01:08:15.540 to go work
01:08:16.040 for daily
01:08:16.520 for the new
01:08:17.200 daily wire enterprise
01:08:18.080 I mean
01:08:18.760 I know there's a lot
01:08:19.780 of disaffected people
01:08:20.960 in the entertainment industry
01:08:22.080 and they're sick
01:08:22.720 and tired of being
01:08:23.360 told what to do
01:08:24.140 and having their talents
01:08:25.360 subverted to the woke mob
01:08:26.780 but I'm curious
01:08:28.920 you've collected
01:08:29.640 a lot of creative people
01:08:30.800 around you
01:08:31.340 and how have you done that
01:08:33.480 and how do you assess
01:08:34.320 and evaluate them
01:08:35.260 yeah
01:08:36.140 when a woman experiences
01:08:39.200 an unplanned pregnancy
01:08:40.420 she often feels alone
01:08:41.900 and afraid
01:08:42.480 too often
01:08:43.520 her first response
01:08:44.480 is to seek out
01:08:45.180 an abortion
01:08:45.660 because that's what
01:08:46.940 left-leaning institutions
01:08:48.020 have conditioned her to do
01:08:49.500 but because of the generosity
01:08:51.280 of listeners like you
01:08:52.420 that search may lead her
01:08:53.800 to a pre-born network clinic
01:08:55.260 where by the grace of God
01:08:56.740 she'll choose life
01:08:57.780 not just for her baby
01:08:59.000 but for herself
01:09:00.260 pre-born offers God's love
01:09:02.160 and compassion
01:09:02.760 to hurting women
01:09:03.520 and provides a free ultrasound
01:09:04.940 to introduce them
01:09:05.880 to the life growing inside them
01:09:07.500 this combination
01:09:08.640 helps women to choose life
01:09:10.220 and it's how pre-born
01:09:11.480 saves 200 babies
01:09:12.740 every single day
01:09:13.740 thanks to the daily wire's
01:09:15.400 partnership with pre-born
01:09:16.480 we're able to make
01:09:17.320 our powerful documentary
01:09:18.560 choosing life
01:09:19.680 available to all
01:09:20.880 on daily wire plus
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01:09:38.420 make a donation today
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01:09:47.040 slash jordan
01:09:47.800 that's pre-born.com
01:09:49.540 slash jordan
01:09:50.380 well one thing
01:09:55.640 that I would say
01:09:56.120 is it's much easier
01:09:57.080 with kids entertainment
01:09:57.980 than it has been
01:09:58.800 with our more general
01:09:59.640 entertainment
01:10:00.440 with general entertainment
01:10:02.800 there are a lot
01:10:04.000 of disaffected people
01:10:04.820 as you say in Hollywood
01:10:05.680 they want to come over
01:10:06.800 and be a part of something
01:10:07.660 that they believe in
01:10:09.040 the challenge is
01:10:10.780 I can't offer them a career
01:10:11.880 I can only offer them a job
01:10:13.180 and if the job
01:10:14.160 that I offer them
01:10:15.000 gets in
01:10:15.620 could actually be
01:10:16.660 detrimental to their career
01:10:18.060 well then that's
01:10:18.900 a pretty bad bargain
01:10:19.760 so one of the things
01:10:21.740 that we're endeavoring
01:10:22.440 to do
01:10:22.800 obviously get talent
01:10:24.260 where we can
01:10:24.940 to grow talent
01:10:26.740 internally
01:10:27.320 to stretch ourselves
01:10:29.040 over time
01:10:30.540 and success
01:10:31.020 to be able to show people
01:10:32.080 look this isn't
01:10:32.760 a flash in the pan
01:10:33.540 there's going to be
01:10:34.060 more and more opportunity
01:10:35.040 over here
01:10:35.580 I think that will draw
01:10:37.180 more and more talent
01:10:38.180 to take that leap
01:10:39.880 and come over
01:10:40.340 and work with us
01:10:41.020 on the kids front
01:10:42.460 it's been much easier
01:10:43.340 the second I announced
01:10:44.480 that we were doing this
01:10:45.240 we had huge writers
01:10:46.920 from DreamWorks
01:10:48.140 and Disney
01:10:48.520 huge producers
01:10:49.160 from DreamWorks
01:10:50.020 and Disney
01:10:50.420 and other animated
01:10:51.640 and kids entertainment
01:10:53.180 companies
01:10:53.680 jump ship
01:10:54.540 and come straight to us
01:10:55.480 and at first
01:10:56.000 I didn't understand why
01:10:57.080 because they're
01:10:57.660 they're taking
01:10:58.600 in some ways
01:10:59.080 an even bigger risk
01:11:00.080 but then I realized
01:11:01.900 oh it makes sense
01:11:03.280 if you had come to me
01:11:04.800 when I was 25
01:11:05.720 let's say
01:11:06.500 and said
01:11:07.680 Jeremy we read this pilot
01:11:08.900 that you wrote
01:11:09.620 it's fantastic
01:11:10.900 we really like it
01:11:11.920 we'd love to make it
01:11:12.940 but you know
01:11:13.760 you're going to have to put
01:11:15.060 an anti-gun agenda
01:11:18.120 in there
01:11:18.540 and the one character
01:11:19.220 is going to have to have
01:11:19.760 an abortion
01:11:20.200 and these two men
01:11:20.940 are going to kiss
01:11:21.500 in the third act
01:11:22.380 I would have been
01:11:23.760 I may have said no
01:11:26.000 because I'm a bit
01:11:26.540 of a contrarian at heart
01:11:27.620 but I may have said yes
01:11:29.000 you know
01:11:29.500 because I wanted so badly
01:11:30.880 for those dreams
01:11:32.600 to come true
01:11:33.260 but if you tell me
01:11:35.020 to do that for a show
01:11:35.880 that's going to be marketed
01:11:36.760 to seven year olds
01:11:37.820 well now there's really
01:11:39.580 no conflict at all
01:11:40.640 I simply cannot do it
01:11:42.780 I cannot have
01:11:44.000 I'm not going to
01:11:45.720 for any amount of money
01:11:46.860 for any amount
01:11:47.900 of my dreams coming true
01:11:49.200 get comfortable
01:11:50.420 with putting
01:11:50.920 transgendered characters
01:11:52.320 in shows aimed
01:11:53.420 at seven year olds
01:11:54.260 and since that is
01:11:55.360 actually what's happening
01:11:56.920 at these major
01:11:58.580 Hollywood studios
01:11:59.240 right now
01:11:59.700 people who
01:12:00.540 people who were drawn
01:12:01.460 to kids entertainment
01:12:02.360 in particular
01:12:02.940 are people who love kids
01:12:04.580 they love
01:12:05.280 the innocence of children
01:12:06.400 the youth of children
01:12:06.940 they feel a responsibility
01:12:08.020 you know
01:12:08.880 the people who work
01:12:09.500 at Disney
01:12:09.940 are a special breed
01:12:11.200 I've worked with
01:12:12.160 some of them now
01:12:12.700 they're damn near impossible
01:12:13.980 by the way
01:12:14.620 it's terrible to manage them
01:12:16.520 because they're so creative
01:12:18.340 they're so full of love
01:12:19.900 they're so full of life
01:12:21.040 they're so full of vision
01:12:22.080 it makes them
01:12:23.340 challenging to manage
01:12:24.660 they're incredible artists
01:12:26.060 truly in every sense
01:12:27.260 of the word
01:12:27.700 and they feel
01:12:29.040 deeply responsible
01:12:30.760 for the content
01:12:31.360 that they create
01:12:31.960 whereas if you ask me
01:12:33.100 to be a writer
01:12:33.580 on Game of Thrones
01:12:34.380 it may go against
01:12:35.380 some of my values
01:12:36.160 but I'd be stoked
01:12:37.200 to be working
01:12:37.680 on the biggest show
01:12:38.500 I'd be stoked
01:12:39.260 to be working
01:12:39.680 with the best people
01:12:40.440 in the industry
01:12:41.000 and I'd console myself
01:12:42.320 at night
01:12:42.700 with the knowledge
01:12:43.320 that adults
01:12:44.020 can make their own choices
01:12:44.960 adults have the right
01:12:45.780 to engage with content
01:12:46.820 maybe the people
01:12:47.680 who watch it
01:12:48.140 won't even agree with it
01:12:49.020 but they'll enjoy it
01:12:49.760 for other reasons
01:12:50.440 you don't feel that way
01:12:51.660 with little kids
01:12:52.280 so from the second
01:12:53.760 we launched
01:12:54.340 the disaffected
01:12:55.300 in general entertainment
01:12:56.460 put out feelers to us
01:12:58.560 keep us posted
01:12:59.400 they'll come take a meeting
01:13:00.260 and then they'll back off
01:13:01.200 on the kids front
01:13:02.780 it's where do we sign up
01:13:04.440 uh-huh
01:13:05.800 uh-huh
01:13:06.560 what they're being asked
01:13:07.460 to do in their daily lives
01:13:08.480 is evil
01:13:09.200 and they don't want
01:13:10.740 to participate in evil
01:13:11.600 hmm
01:13:12.660 hmm
01:13:13.200 so what sort of applicant pool
01:13:15.040 have you been able
01:13:15.740 to draw from
01:13:16.380 like how many
01:13:17.000 I don't know how many people
01:13:18.260 you've hired
01:13:18.860 in the bent key apparatus
01:13:21.260 who are creative
01:13:22.080 can you give us
01:13:23.060 an approximate number
01:13:24.100 yeah
01:13:25.580 you know
01:13:25.900 because I've been out
01:13:26.700 of the country
01:13:27.140 for the last many months
01:13:28.780 on this leave of absence
01:13:29.700 and I'm
01:13:30.020 I found out yesterday
01:13:31.240 that since I've left
01:13:32.300 we've hired almost 30 people
01:13:34.060 uh
01:13:35.240 which is
01:13:35.880 that's a lot
01:13:36.780 that's a big number
01:13:38.060 of my company now
01:13:38.800 that I've never even met
01:13:39.840 but it's
01:13:41.100 it's necessary
01:13:41.740 for how we're doing things
01:13:42.640 for me to be on this leave
01:13:43.660 but I would say
01:13:44.860 two dozen
01:13:46.440 creatives
01:13:48.220 in the
01:13:48.660 in the
01:13:49.320 kids entertainment
01:13:50.700 is probably
01:13:51.320 an accurate number
01:13:52.420 right
01:13:53.460 so it's still a small number
01:13:54.700 and how many
01:13:55.480 how many
01:13:56.000 how many inquiries
01:13:57.180 have you had
01:13:57.860 about the possibility
01:13:58.920 of such
01:13:59.540 positioning
01:14:00.420 daily
01:14:03.040 okay
01:14:04.800 okay
01:14:05.140 so you have
01:14:05.620 a huge
01:14:05.960 applicant pool
01:14:06.660 to select from
01:14:07.480 and people
01:14:08.920 like I say
01:14:09.480 people who've worked
01:14:10.260 at very high levels
01:14:11.380 at very big studios
01:14:12.600 right
01:14:14.420 so it must be tempting
01:14:15.220 to hire all of them
01:14:16.260 yeah
01:14:17.120 if we had the resources
01:14:18.500 we would have hired
01:14:19.240 probably all of them
01:14:20.220 by now
01:14:20.600 you know
01:14:21.980 it is
01:14:22.540 we grow out of cash flow
01:14:24.080 you'll
01:14:24.420 they'll read all these rumors
01:14:25.560 about how we're funded
01:14:26.300 by billionaires
01:14:27.040 we spend over
01:14:28.140 200 million dollars a year
01:14:29.720 you'd have to be
01:14:30.800 quite a billionaire
01:14:31.480 to fund the daily wire
01:14:32.940 there's not
01:14:33.800 I know
01:14:34.260 it's hard for people
01:14:35.320 to understand
01:14:35.700 how money works
01:14:36.480 but a guy
01:14:37.520 with a billion dollars
01:14:38.420 can't spend
01:14:38.940 200 million dollars a year
01:14:40.920 on
01:14:42.000 propping up
01:14:43.400 the daily wire
01:14:44.820 the daily wire
01:14:45.580 is a for proper business
01:14:46.680 well he also doesn't
01:14:47.240 in most cases
01:14:47.980 he also doesn't
01:14:48.880 have that money
01:14:50.120 it's not like
01:14:51.080 I always think of
01:14:51.940 the Scrooge McDuck image
01:14:53.340 because that's what
01:14:54.080 people think
01:14:54.800 you know
01:14:55.040 that the typical billionaire
01:14:56.080 has a money bin
01:14:57.060 where he goes
01:14:57.780 and swims in pennies
01:14:58.960 and your money
01:14:59.940 is out there
01:15:00.600 if you have more money
01:15:01.520 than you need
01:15:02.240 for your daily necessities
01:15:04.400 your money is invested
01:15:05.720 in all sorts of things
01:15:06.820 it's
01:15:07.120 that's right
01:15:07.640 it's not
01:15:07.940 it's yours to control
01:15:09.720 but
01:15:10.640 it's not
01:15:12.240 it's not yours
01:15:13.300 in the simple sense
01:15:14.280 that you have the money
01:15:15.160 in your wallet
01:15:15.920 or if it is
01:15:16.960 you're being foolish
01:15:18.080 with your money
01:15:18.800 so
01:15:19.460 that's a hard thing
01:15:20.800 for people to understand
01:15:21.660 the number of people
01:15:23.100 on planet earth
01:15:23.740 who could just fund
01:15:24.860 an operation
01:15:26.160 like the daily wire
01:15:27.000 is remarkably small
01:15:28.160 it's not even billionaires
01:15:29.220 it's deca billionaires
01:15:30.340 we
01:15:32.640 the daily wire
01:15:33.500 can go away tomorrow
01:15:34.540 if we fail
01:15:36.080 and that's a very real possibility
01:15:37.840 all of the time
01:15:38.900 there have been
01:15:39.660 numerous moments
01:15:40.620 in the history
01:15:41.060 of the company
01:15:41.560 where we've come
01:15:42.080 right up against it
01:15:42.920 and even that
01:15:44.180 is a huge lesson to me
01:15:45.200 it's not
01:15:45.500 I wouldn't have known that
01:15:46.500 until I took this journey
01:15:47.560 I always thought
01:15:48.740 in the early years
01:15:50.020 I thought well we'll reach a point
01:15:51.140 eventually where there's some stability
01:15:52.480 but we keep expanding
01:15:54.280 we keep growing
01:15:54.860 if you're not growing
01:15:55.460 you're dying
01:15:56.020 you know
01:15:57.060 the first year of the company
01:15:58.720 that might be the only real stability
01:16:00.780 Jeremy
01:16:01.240 you know
01:16:01.780 because
01:16:02.300 a biological organism
01:16:04.240 tends to deteriorate
01:16:05.680 very rapidly
01:16:06.300 if it isn't growing
01:16:07.300 and expanding
01:16:08.000 right
01:16:08.320 there's
01:16:08.620 the real stability
01:16:10.160 might be
01:16:11.080 that creative edge
01:16:12.480 and that's particularly
01:16:13.220 going to be true
01:16:13.880 if you're in entertainment
01:16:14.720 and what that does mean
01:16:15.860 or in cultural drama
01:16:17.380 let's say
01:16:17.900 what that does mean
01:16:19.320 and this is one of the things
01:16:20.460 I've really found exciting
01:16:21.440 by the way
01:16:21.860 about working with The Daily Wire
01:16:22.980 because I've worked with
01:16:24.040 a lot of different organizations now
01:16:25.720 and some of them
01:16:26.500 were quite great
01:16:27.220 like Harvard was great
01:16:28.300 in the 90s
01:16:28.860 when I was there
01:16:29.500 and I've started
01:16:30.920 a number of companies
01:16:31.800 and they've done quite well
01:16:32.920 and I'm accustomed
01:16:34.060 to having very good
01:16:35.160 graduate students around me
01:16:36.460 and
01:16:36.600 but
01:16:37.240 one of the things
01:16:38.520 I really have enjoyed
01:16:39.440 about The Daily Wire
01:16:40.300 is that
01:16:40.920 everything is done
01:16:42.320 to a high standard of excellence
01:16:43.560 so that's cool to see
01:16:45.080 and that people are taking
01:16:46.860 that responsibility
01:16:47.700 onto themselves
01:16:48.580 which I also really like to see
01:16:50.020 because it means
01:16:50.640 that you've distributed
01:16:51.600 responsibility
01:16:52.440 and creative freedom
01:16:54.660 at the same time
01:16:55.600 quite extensively
01:16:56.600 and that gives your company
01:16:58.160 a real dynamism
01:16:59.140 and I really saw that
01:17:00.060 with the documentaries
01:17:01.320 and so
01:17:02.500 that's
01:17:03.840 but I think
01:17:04.440 that's the only kind
01:17:05.240 of stability
01:17:05.700 you can really hope for
01:17:06.860 doing what you're doing
01:17:08.180 it has to be
01:17:08.860 a living stability
01:17:10.100 and not
01:17:10.680 some false stability
01:17:12.960 that comes from
01:17:14.060 resting on your laurels
01:17:15.760 and assuming
01:17:16.260 what you've already
01:17:17.280 going to
01:17:17.600 that's like
01:17:17.980 burying your talents
01:17:18.860 in the ground
01:17:19.540 I give a speech
01:17:20.580 to all of our new recruits
01:17:21.580 once a month
01:17:22.120 they bring
01:17:22.460 and of course
01:17:22.920 I haven't gotten to do this
01:17:23.680 in the last five months
01:17:24.700 but once a month
01:17:25.940 they bring all the new people
01:17:26.840 into a room
01:17:27.480 and I go and visit with them
01:17:28.520 and I tell them
01:17:30.580 every time
01:17:30.960 the Daily Wire
01:17:31.440 is an incredibly
01:17:32.140 difficult place to work
01:17:33.340 it's an incredibly
01:17:35.220 difficult place to work
01:17:36.320 because
01:17:36.820 we have an actual mission
01:17:39.220 and
01:17:40.060 you know
01:17:41.140 it
01:17:42.100 I liken it
01:17:43.620 into the mission
01:17:44.200 of say
01:17:44.700 a SpaceX
01:17:45.360 even though obviously
01:17:46.160 what we do
01:17:46.500 is very different
01:17:47.220 but we're
01:17:48.380 trying to get to Mars
01:17:49.580 and we're building
01:17:51.220 the rocket as we go
01:17:52.300 and there's
01:17:53.660 every possibility
01:17:54.780 at every
01:17:55.460 new step
01:17:56.380 that we'll crash
01:17:56.960 back to Earth
01:17:57.480 if you don't get
01:17:57.940 breakaway velocity
01:17:58.760 there's only
01:17:59.240 the inevitability
01:18:01.120 crashing becomes
01:18:01.960 an inevitability
01:18:02.680 it's just a matter of time
01:18:03.720 and that may well be
01:18:04.840 our fate
01:18:05.540 we could one day
01:18:06.300 have a billion dollars
01:18:07.180 a year of revenue
01:18:08.220 and then fail
01:18:09.320 and you could say
01:18:10.180 well I don't understand
01:18:10.900 you used to be succeeding
01:18:12.300 with 30 million dollars
01:18:13.400 a year of revenue
01:18:13.900 how could you fail
01:18:14.580 with a billion
01:18:15.100 well it's easier
01:18:16.400 to fail at a billion
01:18:17.240 because the mistakes
01:18:18.260 get much more costly
01:18:19.180 much faster
01:18:19.880 Daily Wire is hard
01:18:21.600 the pressure is intense
01:18:22.600 every startup is hard
01:18:24.180 and our startup
01:18:24.740 has actual enemies
01:18:25.600 we have
01:18:26.040 all the major giants
01:18:27.520 in social media
01:18:28.240 except perhaps Elon
01:18:29.180 actively trying
01:18:30.400 to shut us down
01:18:31.160 trying to demonetize us
01:18:32.540 we have billionaire
01:18:33.340 funded non-profits
01:18:34.380 who exist
01:18:35.260 they pay people
01:18:36.120 six figures a year
01:18:37.360 to listen to our content
01:18:38.740 and then to try
01:18:39.680 to target our advertisers
01:18:40.920 into dropping us
01:18:41.840 on the basis
01:18:42.560 of the things
01:18:43.060 that we say
01:18:43.440 on that content
01:18:44.000 we have a government
01:18:44.920 that's hostile
01:18:45.600 to the things
01:18:47.200 that we do
01:18:47.720 the entire apparatus
01:18:49.500 of our culture
01:18:51.240 is arrayed
01:18:51.900 essentially
01:18:52.340 against our business
01:18:53.260 of course
01:18:54.140 it's an incredibly
01:18:55.040 challenging environment
01:18:55.880 for people to work in
01:18:56.740 I say
01:18:57.520 it is possible
01:18:58.880 it is possible
01:19:00.160 that I will one day
01:19:00.880 fire you
01:19:01.320 because of a mistake
01:19:02.160 of course
01:19:03.560 hypothetically
01:19:04.220 there's a mistake
01:19:04.820 that you could make
01:19:05.420 that's so vast
01:19:06.100 I would have to fire you
01:19:06.980 and that has happened
01:19:08.040 one or two times
01:19:09.460 but in the vast majority
01:19:11.440 of instances
01:19:11.960 that's not why people
01:19:13.060 burn out at the Daily Wire
01:19:14.480 or quit the Daily Wire
01:19:15.320 and get fired
01:19:15.840 far more prevalent
01:19:17.320 is people who
01:19:18.540 try to rest
01:19:19.900 on past successes
01:19:21.100 if you try to rest on
01:19:23.500 I understand that temptation
01:19:24.960 but past successes
01:19:26.900 will not get us to Mars
01:19:28.280 you know
01:19:29.500 we will crash
01:19:30.660 with all of those
01:19:31.580 past successes
01:19:32.280 firmly in our pocket
01:19:33.360 it's the next success
01:19:35.160 that has to happen
01:19:36.060 and the one after that
01:19:37.220 and the one after that
01:19:38.080 and if you're not willing
01:19:38.900 to continue to challenge yourself
01:19:40.280 and continue to grow
01:19:41.440 and take responsibility
01:19:42.680 if I walk in
01:19:44.120 and say you made a mistake
01:19:45.060 I need you to say
01:19:46.460 yes I did
01:19:47.580 and here's what I learned
01:19:48.400 from it
01:19:48.760 I tell people
01:19:49.540 my dream in life
01:19:50.560 is to one day
01:19:51.180 make a one billion dollar mistake
01:19:53.060 you know
01:19:54.420 you talked about enemies
01:19:55.560 and risk
01:19:57.020 and I think
01:19:58.140 part of the reason
01:19:58.920 that it's exciting
01:20:00.580 to be working
01:20:01.740 with the Daily Wire
01:20:02.660 is because
01:20:03.360 the risk
01:20:04.680 is calibrated properly
01:20:06.060 see
01:20:07.240 one of the things
01:20:08.540 you do as a therapist
01:20:09.520 I had a client
01:20:10.540 who was very afraid
01:20:11.500 of death
01:20:12.540 now everyone's
01:20:13.520 afraid of death
01:20:14.220 and logically so
01:20:15.200 but you can be
01:20:15.860 so afraid of death
01:20:16.800 that it completely
01:20:18.040 obliterates your ability
01:20:19.260 to live
01:20:19.740 and she was a vegan
01:20:21.060 and couldn't even walk
01:20:23.320 into a butcher store
01:20:24.300 and it was because
01:20:25.740 the idea of death
01:20:27.020 was just
01:20:27.620 too much for her
01:20:29.020 she tried to stay asleep
01:20:31.200 most of the time
01:20:32.080 she was very suicidal
01:20:33.240 she had
01:20:36.440 she had a panoply
01:20:37.860 of problems
01:20:38.420 and one of the things
01:20:39.860 we did in treatment
01:20:40.560 I outlined this in my book
01:20:41.940 was
01:20:42.300 go watch an embalming
01:20:43.920 and that was very
01:20:45.780 very dramatic
01:20:46.400 it was dramatic for me too
01:20:47.600 it's not a trivial thing
01:20:48.980 to see
01:20:49.420 that's for sure
01:20:50.280 and part of the reason
01:20:51.780 you do that with people
01:20:52.760 and I did this
01:20:53.620 because she had a dream
01:20:54.540 that indicated
01:20:55.260 some necessity
01:20:56.120 on her part
01:20:56.800 to do something
01:20:57.440 that dramatic
01:20:58.060 in order to lift herself
01:20:59.300 out of her fear
01:21:00.000 and it really did
01:21:01.000 and part of the reason
01:21:01.980 it lifted herself
01:21:02.820 out of her fear
01:21:03.660 was because
01:21:04.260 if you have to confront
01:21:07.000 something truly terrible
01:21:08.660 this is what happens
01:21:09.640 when
01:21:10.800 archaic people
01:21:12.580 initiate their teenagers
01:21:13.960 especially the boys
01:21:14.940 they subject them
01:21:16.100 to something truly awful
01:21:17.340 and the reason
01:21:18.800 they do that
01:21:19.400 is because
01:21:19.900 then their nervous system
01:21:21.540 is calibrated properly
01:21:22.700 they know the difference
01:21:24.240 between something
01:21:25.020 truly awful
01:21:26.200 and something
01:21:27.820 that's just
01:21:28.360 you know
01:21:28.680 not that good
01:21:29.780 and if you don't
01:21:30.740 have that calibration
01:21:31.620 then everything
01:21:32.220 that's just not that good
01:21:33.480 becomes truly awful
01:21:34.540 now one of the things
01:21:35.620 that's cool
01:21:36.120 about the daily wire
01:21:36.960 and this may be
01:21:37.720 a consequence
01:21:38.440 of the intense assault
01:21:40.260 on its existence
01:21:41.120 is that
01:21:41.820 because you guys
01:21:43.420 are surrounded by enemies
01:21:44.680 and the probability
01:21:45.440 of failure
01:21:46.160 is spectacular
01:21:47.180 that risk
01:21:48.860 is built in
01:21:49.820 like just accepting
01:21:51.440 that risk
01:21:52.100 is built in
01:21:52.920 to the psyches
01:21:53.640 of the people
01:21:54.200 who work there
01:21:54.880 and so
01:21:55.220 when I say
01:21:56.220 well why don't we
01:21:57.220 go do a documentary
01:21:58.340 in Jerusalem
01:21:59.100 and Athens
01:21:59.680 and Rome
01:22:00.660 and we won't script it
01:22:02.300 and we'll just see
01:22:03.020 what happens
01:22:03.520 when we go there
01:22:04.420 everybody says
01:22:05.360 well that sounds like
01:22:06.240 it would be interesting
01:22:07.120 instead of having
01:22:07.960 a neurotic fit
01:22:08.880 about all the multiple
01:22:10.460 ways that could go wrong
01:22:11.840 which
01:22:12.600 and there are multiple
01:22:13.660 ways it could go wrong
01:22:14.640 and the probability
01:22:15.320 that it would succeed
01:22:16.260 is very low
01:22:17.100 but I know
01:22:18.940 perfectly well
01:22:19.780 when you're trying
01:22:20.400 to engage people
01:22:21.620 unless you put yourself
01:22:23.460 on the ragged edge
01:22:24.400 of disaster
01:22:25.180 you're not interesting
01:22:27.620 and so you know
01:22:28.940 it could easily be
01:22:29.800 that all this
01:22:31.180 adversarial tension
01:22:32.660 that you're experiencing
01:22:34.460 that I'm experiencing
01:22:35.420 as well
01:22:35.980 is actually
01:22:36.920 not only
01:22:38.120 not an
01:22:38.880 antithetical
01:22:40.040 to that success
01:22:41.040 to radical success
01:22:42.100 but actually
01:22:42.660 a precondition
01:22:43.520 for radical success
01:22:44.720 it's certainly
01:22:45.740 you know
01:22:46.180 one of the things
01:22:46.820 my family has learned
01:22:47.960 through bitter
01:22:49.080 experience
01:22:49.760 is that
01:22:50.440 the worst
01:22:52.380 attacks
01:22:53.160 have the most
01:22:55.620 possibility
01:22:56.920 embedded in them
01:22:58.140 if you can
01:22:59.480 stop panicking
01:23:01.040 and pull back
01:23:01.900 and evaluate
01:23:02.460 the situation
01:23:03.320 there's
01:23:04.320 all sorts of
01:23:05.520 opportunity
01:23:06.040 in a bitter attack
01:23:07.840 especially
01:23:08.720 if you don't
01:23:09.300 apologize
01:23:09.760 if you can
01:23:10.380 withstand
01:23:10.720 the attack
01:23:11.440 if you can
01:23:11.980 you can
01:23:12.840 meet it
01:23:13.180 with a sense
01:23:13.980 of humor
01:23:14.460 and playfulness
01:23:15.160 which is a very
01:23:16.000 strange thing
01:23:16.620 to be able to do
01:23:17.860 when it's a true attack
01:23:19.060 but
01:23:19.700 there's certainly
01:23:21.220 the journalists
01:23:21.960 who have treated me
01:23:22.920 most harshly
01:23:24.100 have been the ones
01:23:25.540 who have done me
01:23:26.100 the biggest favors
01:23:26.960 and that's a very
01:23:28.580 strange thing
01:23:29.180 to see and learn
01:23:29.980 you know
01:23:30.340 it's
01:23:30.640 it kind of stands
01:23:32.180 your understanding
01:23:32.940 of the world
01:23:33.580 on its
01:23:34.000 on its head
01:23:34.920 but in a way
01:23:36.860 that's also
01:23:37.340 a great relief
01:23:38.200 it's like
01:23:38.620 don't be so sure
01:23:39.480 that's just
01:23:40.000 a catastrophe
01:23:40.680 you know
01:23:41.560 I mean
01:23:41.840 sometimes
01:23:42.220 that's obviously
01:23:42.920 very hard
01:23:43.440 to rationalize
01:23:44.200 but
01:23:44.440 even in the
01:23:45.340 extreme situations
01:23:46.400 it's not obvious
01:23:48.380 you know
01:23:49.020 no matter how big
01:23:49.860 the dragon
01:23:50.420 there might be
01:23:51.060 a treasure
01:23:51.480 that's associated
01:23:52.420 that's just as big
01:23:53.580 or bigger
01:23:54.160 it might be
01:23:55.420 that that's how
01:23:55.960 the world is structured
01:23:56.820 so let's close
01:23:57.940 this with
01:23:58.420 I wanted to ask you
01:23:59.620 about Pendragon
01:24:00.400 and what you're
01:24:01.380 doing in Europe
01:24:01.960 and you mentioned
01:24:03.240 that that
01:24:03.780 series
01:24:04.780 was very
01:24:05.900 relevant to you
01:24:07.600 in the shaping
01:24:08.120 of your world view
01:24:08.960 so why don't you
01:24:09.820 walk us through
01:24:10.660 that a bit
01:24:11.040 and then tell us
01:24:11.780 exactly what you are
01:24:13.000 doing in Europe
01:24:13.600 and when this is all
01:24:14.520 going to be launched
01:24:15.280 and what you expect
01:24:16.220 of it
01:24:16.580 so Stephen Lawhead
01:24:18.180 is an American author
01:24:20.360 he's expatriated
01:24:21.820 about 30 years ago
01:24:23.040 and has lived in Oxford
01:24:24.480 ever since
01:24:25.120 he was a
01:24:25.720 American sort of
01:24:27.080 evangelical
01:24:27.620 worked in the
01:24:28.220 evangelical music industry
01:24:29.220 actually in Franklin
01:24:29.920 Tennessee
01:24:30.300 right down the road
01:24:31.000 from the Daily Wire
01:24:31.700 offices
01:24:32.740 and he's been
01:24:33.880 Anglicanized
01:24:34.660 and
01:24:35.260 you know
01:24:36.500 he's obviously
01:24:36.880 a major Anglophile
01:24:37.780 moved to Oxford
01:24:39.000 and really pursued
01:24:40.500 his writing
01:24:42.680 from a
01:24:43.940 historic point of view
01:24:45.080 that's not to say
01:24:45.740 that he writes history
01:24:46.520 he certainly doesn't
01:24:47.340 it's very fiction
01:24:48.020 it's very much fiction
01:24:49.200 but it's
01:24:50.620 it's fiction
01:24:51.220 that's grounded
01:24:51.840 to a large degree
01:24:53.120 that takes place
01:24:53.700 in a time
01:24:54.140 and a place
01:24:54.560 which he understands
01:24:55.460 incredibly well
01:24:56.960 and it's
01:24:58.100 it's masculine
01:24:59.760 and it's
01:25:01.100 Christian
01:25:03.840 but it's Christian
01:25:05.220 in a way
01:25:05.600 that's very grounded
01:25:06.360 as well
01:25:06.820 I mean it's about
01:25:07.480 you know
01:25:08.660 it's about
01:25:09.100 this very dark period
01:25:10.860 in British history
01:25:11.560 it's about
01:25:12.120 war
01:25:12.940 and it's about
01:25:13.580 death
01:25:13.980 and it's about
01:25:14.620 the human struggle
01:25:16.260 and I would say
01:25:17.380 that I found
01:25:18.260 the Pendragon cycle
01:25:19.160 about the same time
01:25:19.840 that I found
01:25:20.400 Braveheart
01:25:21.040 when Braveheart
01:25:22.140 first came out
01:25:22.680 in theaters
01:25:23.000 and Braveheart's
01:25:23.600 the film that
01:25:24.060 impacted me
01:25:24.760 the most in my life
01:25:26.540 for many of the same reasons
01:25:28.140 it's historical fiction
01:25:29.380 obviously
01:25:29.880 it's not
01:25:30.280 that's not quite the story
01:25:31.300 of William Wallace
01:25:32.280 but it's an important story
01:25:34.760 and an important take
01:25:35.920 on a story
01:25:36.500 that's fundamentally about
01:25:38.280 I think
01:25:38.940 what it means
01:25:39.780 to be a man of purpose
01:25:40.980 and a man of faith
01:25:41.860 in the real world
01:25:43.400 not the sort of
01:25:45.060 maybe Christian
01:25:45.820 you know
01:25:46.420 I grew up in the
01:25:47.120 Jesus is nice 90s
01:25:49.400 when
01:25:50.040 when
01:25:50.700 when Jesus is
01:25:51.620 that's just not true
01:25:52.340 that's just not true
01:25:53.580 I've always said
01:25:54.400 I want to write a book
01:25:55.100 called Jesus the Jerk
01:25:56.260 because
01:25:57.140 you know
01:25:57.600 Jesus was
01:25:59.000 a tough guy to like
01:26:00.560 he showed love
01:26:03.180 in a way
01:26:03.460 that only God
01:26:04.100 can show love
01:26:04.880 which is
01:26:05.680 you know
01:26:06.640 it has an edge
01:26:08.260 it has an edge
01:26:09.380 that's right
01:26:10.220 and I'm not even sure
01:26:11.640 that you could show love
01:26:12.800 in the ways
01:26:13.440 that Jesus sometimes
01:26:14.500 showed love
01:26:15.500 for example
01:26:16.120 if you met a woman
01:26:16.920 at a well
01:26:17.480 and she had one source
01:26:19.060 of absolute shame
01:26:20.140 and you chose
01:26:21.020 to lead with it
01:26:21.840 I'm not sure
01:26:22.680 that you could make
01:26:23.260 the claim
01:26:23.660 that you are acting
01:26:24.320 out of love
01:26:24.920 but Christ
01:26:25.800 could make the claim
01:26:26.820 that he was acting
01:26:27.360 out of love
01:26:27.780 that's a very unique
01:26:28.660 all of that to say
01:26:30.860 the sort of nice
01:26:32.800 hippie Jesus
01:26:33.420 who came to hug it out
01:26:34.540 was very unappealing
01:26:36.480 to me
01:26:36.800 it didn't seem
01:26:37.500 real
01:26:38.040 it didn't seem
01:26:38.780 you know
01:26:39.440 I lived in a small town
01:26:40.440 my friends
01:26:41.360 as is true
01:26:42.640 in many American
01:26:43.280 small towns
01:26:43.900 in that era
01:26:44.640 horrible drug use
01:26:46.520 horrible drug use
01:26:47.200 happening inside my family
01:26:48.360 lots of pain
01:26:49.040 and suffering
01:26:49.460 all around me
01:26:50.180 and I just
01:26:52.200 didn't see
01:26:53.040 how this nice guy
01:26:54.160 Jesus
01:26:54.520 held up
01:26:56.160 and then I
01:26:57.460 encountered
01:26:57.820 these stories
01:26:58.540 law head stories
01:26:59.620 Mel Gibson
01:27:01.160 and Randall Wallace's
01:27:02.640 story of
01:27:03.520 of Braveheart
01:27:04.320 and I saw
01:27:05.440 what it would be
01:27:05.840 to be a man of purpose
01:27:06.840 who actually
01:27:07.580 lived out faith
01:27:08.440 in a
01:27:09.220 in a
01:27:09.880 in a world
01:27:11.480 that wasn't very nice
01:27:12.600 and that really
01:27:14.680 inspired a lot
01:27:15.280 of my thinking
01:27:15.700 a lot of my world view
01:27:16.600 I'm sure that my politics
01:27:19.020 is formed
01:27:20.160 in those moments
01:27:20.860 I'm sure that my faith
01:27:21.700 is forged
01:27:22.260 in many ways
01:27:23.420 in those moments
01:27:23.860 it's interesting
01:27:24.360 that you saw that
01:27:25.540 you know
01:27:25.900 I've been writing
01:27:27.240 about Abraham
01:27:28.020 and the Abrahamic story
01:27:30.520 is extremely interesting
01:27:31.820 which is of course
01:27:33.440 why we still remember it
01:27:35.020 but there's
01:27:35.860 there's a couple of elements
01:27:37.420 that I find
01:27:38.020 particularly germane
01:27:39.140 to our discussion
01:27:40.120 and to the state
01:27:40.880 of the current world
01:27:41.560 so Abraham
01:27:42.760 has the socialist
01:27:43.980 paradise
01:27:44.460 at the beginning
01:27:45.220 of the story
01:27:45.920 essentially
01:27:47.120 like if you imagine
01:27:48.540 that the socialist
01:27:49.280 paradise
01:27:49.700 is a place
01:27:50.460 where all your
01:27:51.340 needs are met
01:27:53.100 Abraham has that
01:27:54.800 right
01:27:55.040 because he's the son
01:27:56.120 of a wealthy man
01:27:57.520 and he has
01:27:59.880 everything he needs
01:28:01.260 at hand
01:28:02.060 and he's actually
01:28:04.120 luxuriated in that
01:28:05.380 for decades
01:28:05.960 because I think
01:28:06.420 he's 75
01:28:07.080 when the story opens
01:28:08.340 and God comes to him
01:28:10.140 and says
01:28:10.580 you're not built
01:28:12.620 for laying around
01:28:13.440 and you know
01:28:14.740 existing on a
01:28:16.560 non-stop diet
01:28:17.360 of topless
01:28:18.200 servant girls
01:28:19.160 and milk and honey
01:28:20.580 get the hell out there
01:28:22.220 in the world
01:28:22.800 and what
01:28:24.440 and what
01:28:25.100 have your adventure
01:28:26.740 well the thing
01:28:27.820 about an adventure
01:28:28.620 is it's rough
01:28:29.620 it's rough
01:28:30.940 but it's funny
01:28:32.260 because
01:28:32.660 it appears
01:28:34.440 that a rough adventure
01:28:36.120 is better than
01:28:37.080 an endless diet
01:28:38.140 of milk and honey
01:28:38.920 you know
01:28:39.380 even when you think
01:28:40.200 about what we do
01:28:41.260 when we go to movies
01:28:42.140 we don't go
01:28:43.680 and watch people
01:28:44.680 satiate themselves
01:28:46.380 with materialist goods
01:28:47.480 we don't go to movies
01:28:48.380 and watch people shop
01:28:49.660 we don't watch them
01:28:50.800 eat ice cream
01:28:51.780 right
01:28:52.320 we don't
01:28:52.720 we don't see them
01:28:53.560 with the possible
01:28:54.480 exception of sex
01:28:55.540 we don't see them
01:28:56.280 engaging in
01:28:57.100 consumatory activities
01:28:58.860 technically speaking
01:28:59.780 we go watch people
01:29:01.000 like James Bond
01:29:02.040 we go watch
01:29:02.760 people who are having
01:29:03.640 dangerous adventures
01:29:04.880 and that's exactly
01:29:06.020 what God actually
01:29:06.980 puts in front of Abraham
01:29:08.260 and the reason
01:29:09.200 that Abraham
01:29:09.640 can handle
01:29:10.300 these dangerous adventures
01:29:11.380 is because he continually
01:29:12.440 makes the appropriate
01:29:13.360 sacrifices
01:29:14.020 he always keeps his eye
01:29:15.560 on what's highest
01:29:16.420 and that leads him
01:29:17.740 through war
01:29:18.740 and starvation
01:29:19.640 and the possible loss
01:29:21.220 of his wife
01:29:21.740 and the necessity
01:29:22.520 in principle
01:29:23.260 to sacrifice his son
01:29:24.500 and all the calamities
01:29:26.160 of the world
01:29:26.840 are in the Abrahamic story
01:29:28.220 and he prevails
01:29:30.020 against all that
01:29:31.000 and becomes the father
01:29:31.980 of nations
01:29:32.600 in consequence
01:29:33.300 but what's so cool
01:29:34.680 about the story
01:29:35.420 and it goes along
01:29:36.640 with your observation
01:29:37.560 that the Christ
01:29:38.380 is a nice hippie story
01:29:39.620 just doesn't cut it
01:29:40.580 it's like no
01:29:41.500 you're built to be
01:29:42.580 you're built to take on
01:29:45.340 death and hell
01:29:46.160 fundamentally
01:29:47.140 and that's part and parcel
01:29:48.860 of the Christian passion story too
01:29:50.380 because it means
01:29:51.240 that a full encounter
01:29:52.120 with life
01:29:52.680 is an encounter
01:29:53.380 with all of the terrible
01:29:55.020 elements of death
01:29:55.980 something I covered
01:29:57.060 in detail with Pajot
01:29:58.840 when we did the Jerusalem
01:29:59.880 documentary
01:30:00.520 that will be coming out later
01:30:01.680 and that wasn't even enough
01:30:03.300 is that the full
01:30:04.440 Christian passion story
01:30:05.760 is you don't have
01:30:07.080 to just encounter death
01:30:08.420 and the worst sort of death
01:30:10.320 you know
01:30:10.620 at the hands
01:30:11.300 of your own community
01:30:12.360 disgraced
01:30:13.520 despite your innocence
01:30:14.600 you have to
01:30:15.760 encounter the reality
01:30:17.120 of hell itself
01:30:18.060 to have lived
01:30:19.160 a full life
01:30:19.980 and you know
01:30:20.740 that's brutal
01:30:21.560 but it is
01:30:22.460 what it offers
01:30:24.460 and this is something
01:30:25.460 that's really
01:30:26.100 an offering
01:30:26.740 especially to young men
01:30:28.280 is that
01:30:28.740 well it offers you
01:30:30.400 the adventure
01:30:30.960 of your life
01:30:31.720 and maybe if you had that
01:30:33.440 that would be
01:30:35.120 that would be
01:30:36.420 what you actually want
01:30:37.560 instead of what you say
01:30:38.520 you want
01:30:39.020 you know
01:30:39.360 it could be
01:30:40.320 that that's how things work
01:30:41.720 well and it sounds like
01:30:43.180 you know
01:30:43.640 you started this
01:30:44.440 in part by saying
01:30:45.280 you know
01:30:45.500 you are having
01:30:46.140 the adventure
01:30:46.660 of your life
01:30:47.280 you're in Italy
01:30:48.200 you're in Europe
01:30:48.820 you're pursuing this
01:30:50.920 this series
01:30:51.960 that's actually
01:30:52.540 the fulfillment
01:30:53.160 of a dream
01:30:53.760 that you've had
01:30:54.340 since you were
01:30:55.060 a teenager
01:30:56.020 and strangely
01:30:57.200 it's come true
01:30:58.080 to kill me
01:30:58.580 right
01:30:59.940 it's also the hardest
01:31:00.520 it's the hardest thing
01:31:01.400 I've ever done
01:31:02.160 by any measure
01:31:03.200 what's hard about it
01:31:06.520 I think that I'm
01:31:07.600 on the brink
01:31:08.060 I think I'm
01:31:08.500 on the brink
01:31:08.880 of personal collapse
01:31:10.000 it's been
01:31:10.560 so difficult
01:31:11.980 I'm edgy
01:31:13.760 I'm mercurial
01:31:16.880 in ways
01:31:17.240 that I'm not
01:31:17.680 typically mercurial
01:31:18.680 I don't gain weight
01:31:22.580 I don't lose weight
01:31:23.280 it's just been
01:31:24.360 this horrible
01:31:24.800 grind
01:31:25.820 and everyone
01:31:26.680 who sees me
01:31:27.180 or sees photos
01:31:28.260 of me
01:31:28.560 or saw my video
01:31:29.380 a few days ago
01:31:30.280 say
01:31:30.520 I've never seen
01:31:31.460 you look so happy
01:31:32.300 and I think
01:31:33.800 well yeah
01:31:34.020 because both
01:31:34.420 of those things
01:31:34.880 are true
01:31:35.340 right
01:31:36.540 right
01:31:36.940 right
01:31:37.280 right
01:31:37.660 right
01:31:38.180 yeah
01:31:38.660 isn't that
01:31:39.080 a strange thing
01:31:39.920 and so how do you
01:31:40.980 account for the fact
01:31:41.880 that how do you
01:31:42.700 account for the fact
01:31:43.620 that you are doing
01:31:44.960 this perversely
01:31:45.800 impossible thing
01:31:46.760 that is unlikely
01:31:49.100 beyond belief
01:31:50.120 but that's actually
01:31:50.960 happening
01:31:51.400 I mean
01:31:51.700 first of all
01:31:52.360 with the Daily Wire
01:31:53.220 in general
01:31:53.780 second with
01:31:55.080 what is so far
01:31:56.400 a improbably
01:31:58.480 successful foray
01:31:59.800 into the domain
01:32:00.580 of culture
01:32:01.180 and then third
01:32:02.220 and even more
01:32:02.940 specifically
01:32:03.540 that well
01:32:04.580 you're making
01:32:05.120 the series
01:32:06.040 of your dreams
01:32:06.940 essentially
01:32:07.460 like why do you
01:32:08.860 think
01:32:09.180 why do you
01:32:10.960 what do you think
01:32:11.660 you've done
01:32:12.320 apart from
01:32:13.140 being the fortunate
01:32:14.200 recipient of God's
01:32:15.480 grace
01:32:15.760 what do you think
01:32:16.500 you've done
01:32:17.120 or not done
01:32:18.720 to make this
01:32:19.540 a possibility
01:32:21.500 I think that
01:32:23.840 I would say
01:32:24.640 that
01:32:25.080 God recommends
01:32:26.580 God
01:32:27.040 God doesn't
01:32:28.340 recommend us
01:32:29.180 this is one
01:32:30.480 of the lessons
01:32:31.240 that I
01:32:31.660 encounter
01:32:32.300 over and over
01:32:33.020 and over
01:32:33.320 in my life
01:32:33.900 and where I
01:32:34.240 see
01:32:34.540 real pride
01:32:36.800 set in
01:32:37.280 is when we
01:32:37.640 think God
01:32:38.020 is recommending
01:32:38.560 us
01:32:39.000 when quite often
01:32:40.340 he's recommending
01:32:40.940 well perhaps
01:32:42.680 exclusively
01:32:43.220 he's recommending
01:32:43.880 himself
01:32:44.440 you know
01:32:46.120 what have
01:32:47.280 what have I
01:32:48.140 done
01:32:48.520 well I've done
01:32:49.320 a lot of
01:32:49.900 things
01:32:50.260 a lot of
01:32:51.060 them are good
01:32:51.500 and a lot
01:32:51.860 of them are
01:32:52.220 bad
01:32:52.540 I am a lot
01:32:54.340 of things
01:32:54.780 I'm complex
01:32:55.360 like everyone
01:32:55.860 else is complex
01:32:56.780 and in a lot
01:32:58.060 of superficial
01:32:58.620 ways I've made
01:32:59.420 great choices
01:33:00.100 and done great
01:33:00.820 good things
01:33:01.740 and in a lot
01:33:02.780 of more subtle
01:33:03.420 areas of life
01:33:04.740 I've done
01:33:05.960 probably
01:33:06.440 and am
01:33:07.640 probably worse
01:33:08.460 than people
01:33:09.040 who've been
01:33:09.500 made worse
01:33:10.500 superficial choices
01:33:11.540 than I've made
01:33:13.600 you know
01:33:14.240 you talked a little
01:33:15.120 bit ago about
01:33:15.640 free will
01:33:16.100 and how important
01:33:16.680 free will is
01:33:17.340 and of course
01:33:17.720 I agree
01:33:18.240 you can't
01:33:19.560 I don't think
01:33:21.180 one can honestly
01:33:22.340 look at life
01:33:23.000 and deny free will
01:33:23.920 I think that you
01:33:24.460 look at life
01:33:25.040 I think a lot
01:33:25.520 of people
01:33:25.840 can reason
01:33:26.580 their way
01:33:27.000 out of believing
01:33:27.720 in free will
01:33:29.160 but if there
01:33:30.320 is a supercomputer
01:33:31.180 which could
01:33:32.200 somehow
01:33:32.960 measure all
01:33:34.140 of the
01:33:34.640 vibrations
01:33:35.680 from every
01:33:36.940 photon
01:33:37.340 and every
01:33:38.120 electron
01:33:38.540 since the
01:33:39.540 big bang
01:33:40.100 and crunch
01:33:40.920 it all up
01:33:41.420 could it
01:33:41.700 figure out
01:33:42.160 that I'm
01:33:42.440 going to
01:33:42.620 clap my
01:33:43.000 hands right
01:33:43.440 now on
01:33:43.720 this podcast
01:33:44.380 well if there
01:33:44.980 is such a
01:33:45.420 supercomputer
01:33:45.840 that computer
01:33:46.460 is God
01:33:47.040 which speaks
01:33:49.740 to the fact
01:33:51.280 that there
01:33:51.520 is both
01:33:51.840 an experiential
01:33:52.780 free will
01:33:53.380 and there
01:33:54.260 is something
01:33:54.900 beyond free
01:33:55.920 will
01:33:56.220 as well
01:33:57.140 that in
01:33:58.800 some ways
01:33:59.460 I'm responsible
01:34:00.140 for my choices
01:34:00.920 and in some
01:34:01.460 ways I'm not
01:34:02.120 from a governing
01:34:03.300 point of view
01:34:03.920 from a justice
01:34:04.640 point of view
01:34:05.240 we can only
01:34:06.320 organize society
01:34:07.340 around the idea
01:34:08.120 of free will
01:34:08.740 you couldn't
01:34:09.880 organize society
01:34:10.860 around determinism
01:34:11.760 it would be an
01:34:12.380 unjust society
01:34:13.340 if you did
01:34:14.540 but part of
01:34:15.220 humility is to
01:34:16.020 say free will
01:34:16.760 isn't sufficient
01:34:17.520 to completely
01:34:18.260 describe the
01:34:19.560 human experience
01:34:20.360 just as
01:34:21.000 determinism
01:34:21.640 isn't
01:34:23.300 perhaps at
01:34:23.980 all
01:34:24.320 satisfactory
01:34:25.760 to describe
01:34:26.320 the human
01:34:26.660 experience
01:34:26.980 so I
01:34:27.580 take all
01:34:27.940 of that
01:34:28.260 and I
01:34:28.640 mentioned
01:34:30.380 that a lot
01:34:30.980 of drug
01:34:31.400 use happened
01:34:31.900 in my
01:34:32.180 family
01:34:32.580 I have an
01:34:33.720 uncle
01:34:33.960 who's a
01:34:34.260 year younger
01:34:34.640 than me
01:34:34.980 we were
01:34:35.260 basically
01:34:35.620 raised as
01:34:36.200 brothers
01:34:36.540 very small
01:34:37.900 town
01:34:38.240 very close
01:34:39.420 incredibly close
01:34:40.460 to this day
01:34:40.840 with my
01:34:41.100 grandparents
01:34:41.500 and we
01:34:42.920 grew up in
01:34:43.520 the same
01:34:43.780 house at the
01:34:44.200 same time
01:34:44.640 basically
01:34:45.180 that's not
01:34:47.020 literally true
01:34:47.640 but for all
01:34:48.060 intents and
01:34:48.420 purposes
01:34:48.700 it's true
01:34:49.280 and at
01:34:51.160 about the
01:34:51.700 same time
01:34:52.260 in our
01:34:52.580 lives we
01:34:53.060 started walking
01:34:53.640 into rooms
01:34:54.160 where there
01:34:54.440 was alcohol
01:34:54.940 and at
01:34:55.460 about the
01:34:55.840 same time
01:34:56.220 in our
01:34:56.440 lives we
01:34:56.820 started walking
01:34:57.260 into rooms
01:34:57.680 where there
01:34:57.940 were cigarettes
01:34:58.480 and at
01:34:58.760 about the
01:34:59.160 same time
01:34:59.620 we walked
01:35:00.360 into rooms
01:35:00.840 where there
01:35:01.100 were drugs
01:35:01.600 and he
01:35:03.380 became addicted
01:35:04.280 to all of
01:35:04.780 those things
01:35:05.280 and I
01:35:06.700 didn't
01:35:07.640 is that
01:35:08.480 as simple
01:35:08.960 as I made
01:35:09.460 better choices
01:35:10.080 than him
01:35:10.520 well it's
01:35:10.840 certainly not
01:35:11.300 as simple
01:35:12.040 as I made
01:35:12.480 better choices
01:35:13.400 than him
01:35:13.800 if the room
01:35:14.400 had been
01:35:14.640 filled with
01:35:15.060 ranch dressing
01:35:15.660 he would
01:35:15.980 have walked
01:35:16.260 out addicted
01:35:17.060 to ranch
01:35:17.500 dressing
01:35:17.840 there is a
01:35:18.300 switch in his brain that's different than the switch in my brain. And by God's grace, he's
01:35:24.420 been freed from those things. And so that's why I don't feel bad talking about it. It's not as
01:35:29.980 though he's still in the throes of it or has been in a very long time. But I always look at his life
01:35:35.300 and my life and say, you could easily say that I made better choices. And in some ways I did,
01:35:42.060 but even those choices, I don't know that I deserve much credit for. And I also made some
01:35:46.060 really terrible choices and just didn't get stuck with the consequences as he did.
01:35:49.940 At the same time, while he went through this phase of doing superficially incredibly terrible things,
01:35:55.680 I also can't look at his life and conclude that I'm better. I did a lot better in those
01:36:01.320 superficial areas. And I also know the darkness that I'm carrying around in my heart. I know
01:36:05.820 the judgments that I have of other people. I know that the devil on one shoulder and the angel on
01:36:12.140 the other shoulder both speak in my own voice. And so it's very hard to ever trust your own
01:36:17.960 perceptions of your goodness or your badness. I say all of that to say, I can't really describe
01:36:23.780 how I am where I am wholly apart from the grace of God. I don't understand why I've made choices
01:36:30.560 that have led to this. I could point to some of the choices that I think have without fully taking
01:36:35.100 any credit for them. I am, as I said earlier, I'm committed to the institutions that have helped us
01:36:42.380 shape our society. And I'm critical of those institutions. But I don't feel a desire to burn
01:36:47.320 them down. I only feel a desire that I think we should all take up a responsibility in our generation
01:36:51.960 to out with the bad and rebuild the important edifices. I don't know where that comes from except
01:37:00.540 story. I know that in Braveheart, William Wallace doesn't achieve the goal. He's executed. Other
01:37:06.060 people achieve the goal. I know that in the Pendragon cycle, in turn, both Taliesin and Merlin and
01:37:12.660 Arthur fail to achieve the goal. They draw us one step closer to that goal, and they go through
01:37:18.760 huge losses. So perhaps in a narrative sense, I was drawn to these stories about how it's not our job
01:37:25.600 to save the world. It's only our job to do our part. When Andrew Breitbart wrote his book,
01:37:30.840 Righteous Indignation, Excuse Me, While I Save the World, I called him and said, Andrew,
01:37:35.160 you can't call the book that. And he said, well, I am indignant, and it is righteous. I said, well,
01:37:39.200 you can call it. You can use that part, but don't use the subtitle. I said, it's, you're not saving the
01:37:43.800 world, and God is a jealous God. He's not going to share credit for saving the world with you.
01:37:49.040 And I understand that Andrew was on that mission. I supported him. I loved him in that mission.
01:37:53.840 But the mission is to do our part in God's work, not to think that we're God and that the work is
01:37:59.220 ours to do. And I don't mean to be critical of my friend, only of this one bad idea that I think that
01:38:03.900 he, this one bad idea that I think that he had. And so I do think, I do think that's part of the
01:38:09.980 grace that's helped me accomplish the things that I've accomplished. I'm doing what's put in front of
01:38:13.880 me to do. I'm skeptical of my own motivations, enough that I challenge myself and try to do better.
01:38:20.960 And I know it isn't ultimately my fight to win. And somehow in that, I've been able to participate
01:38:25.780 in a grace. And it may all fail, so I don't want to hold myself up as some great example of how you
01:38:30.460 should live your life. I only want to say that I think the only correct posture between us and God
01:38:36.400 is humility. The only correct posture between us and our own lives is a sense of responsibility for
01:38:41.280 our actions on the one hand, and a sense of humility before God and the other. And somewhere in
01:38:46.780 that, I've been able to live a happy life in times of success and in times of failure.
01:38:51.820 And I'm not displeased to currently be in a phase of success. Success can be much harder,
01:39:00.600 by the way, than failure. It comes with its own, as you know, probably much better even than I.
01:39:07.220 Success comes with enormous challenges. But there's a reason we call it success, too. It comes with a lot
01:39:12.160 of amazing benefits. That's a really good place to stop. We're at about the right time. And that's
01:39:17.940 a very good closing. And so I'm very much looking forward to seeing what happens with Bent Key on the
01:39:25.100 Child's Entertainment Front. It's something I'm very interested in. I hope the Pendragon series
01:39:29.880 knocks them dead. I'm really looking forward to the release of our documentaries. It's been
01:39:34.780 spectacularly good fun and serious as well to be working with The Daily Wire. So I thank you for that.
01:39:40.900 But that's been really nothing but good. And that's quite something. We've been working
01:39:46.380 together for a year and a half now, something like that, eh? And it's been—all of it's been good
01:39:53.080 on my side. And so I'm very pleased about that and would like to say thank you for setting up the
01:39:58.300 organization. Well, as long as you keep never saying anything that I don't agree with.
01:40:00.160 Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, you talked about firing me if I make a mistake. I mean,
01:40:04.960 I've known for six years that I'm one wrong statement away from catastrophe. But that is an
01:40:11.800 exciting place to exist. There is that. And it does force you to be awake. And there is something
01:40:16.560 useful about being forced to be awake. And I think Daily Wire is awake in the right way. So
01:40:22.440 good luck with your venture. As you know, anything I can do to help that would be appropriate, I would
01:40:29.500 be more than happy to do. Thank you. And I'm thrilled to see—I'm very interested to see
01:40:34.600 what's going to happen with Snow White because that's so preposterous and ridiculous and comical
01:40:38.920 and pointed. And a nice move in relationship to Disney's 100th anniversary. You guys have a very
01:40:45.640 good sense of timing. And so that's very funny to watch. And so thank you very much for the
01:40:49.920 conversation. As everyone who's watching and listening knows, I will spend another half an hour with
01:40:55.060 Jeremy on the Daily Wire side of things. And so if you want to head over there, consider a subscription,
01:41:01.220 you'll get access to the Bent Key productions now too, which seems to be an additional benefit,
01:41:06.180 especially if you have kids. So give that some consideration. And thank you to the film crew
01:41:10.560 here in Lisbon and to the Daily Wire for making all of this possible. And Jeremy, it was a pleasure
01:41:14.940 talking to you and getting to know you a little bit better. Thank you so much for having me.
01:41:25.060 Thank you.
01:41:26.060 Thank you.