The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 396. Magna CEO on Turning Five Thousand Dollars Into One Billion ｜ Frank Stronach

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00:00:57.420 Hello everyone watching and listening.

00:01:11.540 Today I have the honor to speak with Frank Stronach, founder and CEO of Magna International, one of Canada and the world's great companies.

00:01:21.060 Frank built that company from nothing starting in the 1950s. It's quite a story.

00:01:25.540 We discussed the keys to motivating yourself, to starting and maintaining a successful and expanding business, why that's a good thing for yourself and everybody else.

00:01:35.480 The idea contained within his corporate constitution, it's an economic charter of rights, which advocates for the input, autonomy, and profit sharing among all workers, management, shareholders, etc.

00:01:51.640 And I'm very much looking forward to talking about it with him.

00:01:56.860 Hello, Mr. Stronach. It's very, very nice to see you.

00:02:00.100 We met a couple of months ago at a restaurant in Toronto, and I had the opportunity to talk to you about your business ventures over the last five or six decades, which I found extraordinarily interesting.

00:02:13.940 In the intervening period of time, I've read one of your books, the one that's more autobiographical, and I'm very interested in your story.

00:02:25.500 I thought you would make a particularly good podcast guest because one of the things I do with my podcast is walk people through the lives of successful individuals.

00:02:40.040 Because I think it would be better if people believed that they could move forward successfully in the world, and that they were equipped with some knowledge about how to do that.

00:02:52.200 And I think that's something we could really concentrate on focusing in on.

00:02:57.380 I know it's very important to you.

00:02:58.700 In this podcast, you came to Canada in the 1950s.

00:03:03.120 We'll go through your story autobiographically.

00:03:05.740 You came armed with a tiny bit of money, some actual skill, some determination, and out of that, you built a massive business empire.

00:03:16.360 Let's start with this.

00:03:18.760 Not everyone listening and watching are going to know what Magna Enterprises is.

00:03:25.460 So, would you do us the favor first of laying out your business empire?

00:03:30.880 Tell people what it is that you do and what you've accomplished, how you're spread out through the world, what you guys manufacture.

00:03:37.160 Just lay out the story, the description of Magna.

00:03:40.880 Okay.

00:03:41.340 I've always said life is a question of fate and circumstances, being at the right places at the right time with the right ingredients.

00:03:49.800 As it happened, I was born in a working-class family, and when I finished my schooling and I had one or two years of practical experience, I wanted to see the world.

00:04:03.380 I applied for a visa to South Africa, Australia, the United States, and Canada.

00:04:09.240 Sometimes I'm a little tough on the Canadian bureaucracy, but I'm saying it's still the best because they came first forward with the visa.

00:04:18.620 So, I landed in Quebec City.

00:04:20.560 I took the cheapest fare I could, you know, from Holland on a coal freighter.

00:04:25.460 And so, I arrived in Quebec in, I think it was about April 1954, and the immigration officer asked me, do you know anybody in Canada?

00:04:39.040 I said, no.

00:04:39.760 So, I said, well, then you go to Montreal.

00:04:42.500 So, I moved to Montreal.

00:04:43.640 So, I took a train to Montreal, but I didn't know anybody.

00:04:49.060 My English was reasonable, okay, and there were some English-speaking people on that ship, and so I tried to practice my English.

00:04:59.480 So, anyway, I knew because I had $200 in my pocket, and I knew that wouldn't last me too long if I would right away board a hotel or whatever.

00:05:12.760 So, the people told me, look, just walk along the streets, and it's customary if you see a sign, room to let, just knock on the door, and you might get a room.

00:05:26.420 So, I did walk for an hour or two, right?

00:05:31.400 I knocked on the door.

00:05:32.480 There were a few signs I've seen.

00:05:33.980 I knocked on the door.

00:05:35.420 I think I kind of looked a little rough from the long journey.

00:05:39.200 And so, they say it's already leased, but I did find a room.

00:05:44.740 So, the next morning, I got up, and I looked at the roadmaps.

00:05:52.420 I looked at them and walked around, and I worked in the factory, but it was in 54.

00:05:57.900 There was a major recession.

00:05:59.920 I just couldn't find a job, right?

00:06:01.840 And during that time, I was hungry, hungry not because I wanted to lose weight.

00:06:10.760 I was hungry.

00:06:11.800 I had no money to buy food.

00:06:14.240 And if you experience that, that's an impression which will last forever.

00:06:21.220 It's burnt in your soul, right?

00:06:23.700 So, anyway, I run out of money.

00:06:25.960 I was hungry.

00:06:26.680 I had an acquaintance, not a close friend, but somebody, you know, from the same town I came from.

00:06:33.660 And that was in Kitchener, right?

00:06:36.120 So, I saved enough money to do—I bought a Greyhound bus ticket, and I moved to Kitchener.

00:06:43.480 I traveled by bus by Kitchener from Montreal.

00:06:46.080 And so, when I got off the main square, I asked somebody where such-and-such address is.

00:06:53.460 They said, look, go up there four blocks, and then ask again.

00:06:57.960 And so, up four blocks, I said, well, go up three more blocks, and then you might have to make it left.

00:07:04.780 And so, again, after about two hours of walking, I could find the house where that fellow lived.

00:07:13.700 And I knocked on the door, and an elderly lady said, Max, that was the fellow's name.

00:07:20.920 Does somebody want to see me?

00:07:22.920 I was very—it was a very happy feeling, you know, to meet somebody, which you know from previous days.

00:07:30.960 So, anyway, Max came down, and he looked at me and said, you're looking a little rough.

00:07:37.120 Are you hungry?

00:07:37.840 I said, yes.

00:07:38.920 Come on in.

00:07:40.460 So, the next day, I slept there.

00:07:43.180 The next day, we started chop hunting.

00:07:48.180 In the industrial site, there was nothing, but I did find a chop at the Kitchener Waterloo Hospital in the kitchen.

00:07:56.260 And so, I felt so sorry for myself.

00:08:00.540 I feel when I come to Canada, I get a manly job, you know, cutting trees down or taking out stones, something manly.

00:08:08.180 But I was there in the kitchen with a lot of elderly women, nothing against elderly women. 1.00

00:08:14.240 My mother was an elderly woman.

00:08:16.200 I liked her.

00:08:17.180 But I felt sorry for myself, too, peeling potatoes, washing salads, et cetera, et cetera.

00:08:23.320 So, in the evening, it was just etching to get away to me amongst people.

00:08:27.340 In those days, there was an Austrian club in Kitchener.

00:08:31.900 So, I went there.

00:08:32.760 In those days, there was slow dancing, right?

00:08:34.980 A lot of music.

00:08:35.820 And when I danced with a girl, you know, what you do, where you're from.

00:08:41.460 I say, I'm from Austria.

00:08:42.680 What you do?

00:08:43.240 Well, I work in the hospital.

00:08:44.900 My hands were so smooth from washing dishes.

00:08:47.380 They thought I was a surgeon.

00:08:49.480 So, but that was the end.

00:08:50.660 They always kind of said, no, I'm just working in the kitchen.

00:08:53.920 Then I did.

00:08:54.520 I guess they didn't want to dance close.

00:08:56.680 They didn't want to go out with a guy which works in the kitchen.

00:08:59.600 But that's the way life is.

00:09:01.520 But anyway, after a little while, after about a month or so, I did find a job in an engineering

00:09:07.820 and a production-oriented company.

00:09:10.640 The company worked exclusively for the Avro Aircraft, right, which Canada developed.

00:09:26.140 But that project wasn't financed anymore.

00:09:34.180 And it was closed.

00:09:37.140 The Avro Aircraft factory, I think, was closed.

00:09:41.020 The company I worked for was closed.

00:09:43.500 So I hitchhiked a ride from Kitchener to Oakville, Fort Worth, building a new factory at the time there.

00:09:53.600 There were huge lineups.

00:09:55.540 I waited for about two, three hours before they interviewed me.

00:09:59.240 And they interviewed, like, yes, you're a tool in time maker.

00:10:04.080 You're too young to get any experiences.

00:10:08.000 So I wasn't hired.

00:10:09.460 And I drafted to Toronto, down the hitchhiker, right to Toronto.

00:10:14.020 But years later, I had many times, you know, a meeting, a lunch meeting, dinner meeting with the president of Ford.

00:10:24.900 And they told me, you're lucky.

00:10:25.940 If I got hired at the time, I would be the president, right?

00:10:29.320 So I could tease him, right?

00:10:31.740 I knew him well enough that I could tease him.

00:10:33.680 But anyway, I did find a job then, a very small company, you know, about 10 people.

00:10:39.520 After a year, after a few months, the guy said, the owner said, you're doing a great job.

00:10:44.780 I want you to be a partner of mine.

00:10:47.060 And my chest swelled a little, and that's great.

00:10:51.000 And nice guy, but he'd never wrote it down, what it's all about.

00:10:55.400 So I said to myself, there's nothing to do with the run of factories.

00:11:00.580 So I looked in the papers, and I found the job.

00:11:04.580 I got paid a lot more.

00:11:06.500 I moved in a rooming house where the toilets were in the hallway, and I saved every dollar.

00:11:12.760 After a couple of years, I saved about $5,000.

00:11:17.060 I rented a garage.

00:11:18.920 Actually, it was the gatehouse of Standard Products in Dufferin and Tupont in Toronto.

00:11:26.680 And the size was about maybe double than a garage.

00:11:33.880 I bought a few used machines.

00:11:36.020 I had a $5,000 saved up, because in terms today, that would be at least $100,000 or $150,000, right?

00:11:43.360 So I bought the used machines, and out I went hustling.

00:11:46.640 I knocked around on factory doors, and I said, I'm great in solving problems.

00:11:54.460 And I said, look, if I can't solve the problems, you don't have to pay me.

00:11:58.860 But anyway, after one month, I hired a worker.

00:12:02.180 After a year, I had about 10 workers.

00:12:04.520 After two years, about 20.

00:12:06.740 After five years, about 3,000, 4,000.

00:12:09.960 After 10 years, about 75,000.

00:12:13.840 After 20 years, 125,000.

00:12:17.620 And then I built up a company with 170,000 employees in 34 different countries.

00:12:26.840 So anyway, the message I want to get across is, you know, when we're younger, we all hustle

00:12:34.560 to make some monies so that we can live in dignity.

00:12:38.840 I guess I could have lived in dignity in all those 34 countries, but I chose Canada.

00:12:44.900 I think I've seen the world, and I met just about every president, you know, from Clinton

00:12:55.360 to Putin to Tony Blair, just about everybody.

00:12:58.940 And I could see Canada perhaps the only country now which could be a role model, which, well,

00:13:09.420 we could, well, we could implement an economic chart of rights.

00:13:17.860 Magna basically is more than a business.

00:13:21.640 It's really a culture.

00:13:23.100 I call it the fair enterprise system.

00:13:25.240 So the basic philosophy on fair enterprise is the human chart of rights alone is not sufficient.

00:13:33.460 We have to fortify it with an economic chart of rights.

00:13:37.220 Economic charters of rights will lead to economic democracies, and economic democracies are the

00:13:44.140 basis for democracy itself.

00:13:47.120 But let me explain it a little better because we don't talk too much about it, you know.

00:13:54.760 Boy, those conversations are not, they're not by default, right?

00:14:00.600 But let me simplify things now.

00:14:06.160 All the politicians, all business, all, well, matter of fact, most people agree if the economy

00:14:13.520 doesn't work, nothing else will work.

00:14:16.220 You cannot treat the hungry, you cannot look after the most fragile people, the elderly, 1.00

00:14:24.600 the sick, and the handicapped. 0.98

00:14:27.080 But we do not talk what drives the economy.

00:14:31.360 The economy is driven by three forces.

00:14:35.240 Smart managers, hardworking employees, and investors.

00:14:39.920 That means all three have a right to the outcome, which is profits.

00:14:46.820 The message I want to get across is if we fail or if we do not let workers participate in profits,

00:14:57.240 then we got a problem.

00:14:58.760 Okay?

00:14:59.220 Because the world has always been dominated by the golden rule, and still is.

00:15:07.180 The people which have the gold make the rules.

00:15:10.140 I don't want to be dominated by anyone.

00:15:12.160 If I feel that strong, then I should not be able to dominate somebody either.

00:15:17.840 So, thereby, the only way we be able to achieve that is why an economic chart of rights.

00:15:26.980 The message I want to get across to Canadians is the human chart of rights alone is not sufficient.

00:15:34.280 We have to fortify it with an economic chart of rights.

00:15:38.920 Economic chart of rights, as I said before, will lead to economic democracies.

00:15:43.860 And economic democracies are the basis for democracy itself.

00:15:49.380 The human chart of rights alone doesn't mean a lot of things.

00:15:52.800 For a kid in Illinois at Detroit, he's free to be hungry.

00:15:57.160 So, the amazing story about the whole thing is, when I put in a corporate constitution at Magnet,

00:16:05.360 it was about in the mid-late 80s, the constitution basically said,

00:16:10.500 or the most important thing in the constitution was, we predetermined what we do with the profits.

00:16:19.220 So, the constitution said, the profit sharing said, 20% of the profits go to the shareholders,

00:16:27.980 10% goes to the employees over and above their wages, half in shares, half in cash,

00:16:33.960 6% management gets, 2% charity gets, and 7% is reinvested for research.

00:16:45.920 So, when I put the constitution in, the profits went up the first year about 40%,

00:16:52.380 the second year about 100%, the third year about 200%.

00:16:57.960 When you empower employees, where they share, where there's a clear concept,

00:17:06.320 where they share in the profits, you release an enormous energy.

00:17:12.020 You know, because they're on the front line, the employees are on the front line.

00:17:16.000 They can see what you have to do to make a better product for a better price.

00:17:21.340 So, that's what it's all about.

00:17:23.440 That's the kind of, that's what the world needs.

00:17:27.400 You know, we stand, perhaps, at a crossroad.

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00:19:11.360 The United States is slipping to a certain extent.

00:19:18.320 The United States has dominated the world for the last hundred years.

00:19:23.240 And we have freedom and religious freedom, freedom to speak, and a lot of freedom.

00:19:30.360 Great, right?

00:19:32.080 We have maybe followed it up, and we could do a little better there.

00:19:35.700 But the United States, unfortunately, has a lot of problems.

00:19:42.140 There's cancer in the inner cities.

00:19:44.520 The poverty is enormous.

00:19:46.740 I don't know if it's feasible, right?

00:19:49.700 But the very, the very, the key question we have to ask ourselves, what can we do to, you know, because the divide is too great.

00:20:03.320 There's so much money's held by just a few, and there's so much poverty by many, okay?

00:20:12.180 So what do we have to do to level that out?

00:20:17.800 Not completely.

00:20:19.160 You can never, you should never level it out.

00:20:21.860 At the same time, I say, a country with stifles its citizen in pursuit of productivity, ingenuity, creativity, is a decaying society.

00:20:34.780 Because you have the society or the world's made up of different minds, different desires, different, let everybody choose their own road to happiness, okay?

00:20:46.760 So, but it's very important.

00:20:49.940 So I divide, I divide, actually, the program.

00:20:54.500 I classify business over 300 employees.

00:20:57.900 It's a large business.

00:20:59.660 Below 300 people, it's a small business.

00:21:02.740 The law would stipulate that the large business, which have more than 300 employees, that they, the law would provide that workers could share in some of the profits.

00:21:17.880 And that could be determined, right?

00:21:19.740 It could be an escalated program.

00:21:23.060 The small business, small business basically is the backbone of any country.

00:21:28.960 This, they pay the most taxes, they have the most employment, and this is where, call it, the new products come forward, the new technology, et cetera.

00:21:40.600 So we must do everything we can that we take the red tapes off, take the chains of small business, and let small business operate under the pure free enterprise principles.

00:21:54.340 So there is, the bureaucracy has climbed enormously, you know?

00:22:01.040 I could never build a magnet anymore.

00:22:03.460 Imagine starting out in a garage.

00:22:06.160 Imagine to build 170,000 employees, over 400 factories worldwide.

00:22:13.400 I could never, because I would choke under the first factory, right?

00:22:18.500 And I could give you examples now how cumbersome it is, right?

00:22:24.600 Okay, and when we look back 40, 50 years, yes, we have a lot of security, our safety measurement, and, you know, buildings have to be built, and then we'll collapse over the snow load, et cetera.

00:22:39.260 But the bureaucracy has climbed to such an extent.

00:22:42.760 But let me, I'd like to point out, to bring about change, you won't bring about change if you point the fingers whose fault it is, and you cannot do it with the chainsaw either.

00:22:57.200 So I'm saying it's not the fault of the bureaucrats.

00:23:02.180 In a free society, everybody has a right to find a job, whatever the job openings are.

00:23:08.520 It's the system, the system we have to change.

00:23:11.800 Our politicians are trapped in the systems, because the politics is whoever brings forward something new, any politician or a party, they won't win, because you could criticize them.

00:23:27.780 So this is the problem.

00:23:30.340 Politics, government can't fix things. 0.98

00:23:33.740 So it needs, it needs a private citizen, it needs a coalition of what I would call concerned Canadians, which, where you could leave the program relative short, that you could combine, this is what we need to get the economy going.

00:23:54.200 Because the economy, you know, I think it's frightening, what will happen over the next five, ten years.

00:24:03.000 We don't make things anymore.

00:24:05.120 When you look, when you see factories, the factories are all warehouses.

00:24:10.540 We don't make things.

00:24:11.700 And when a country doesn't make things, they got to import everything, then there's where the economy breaks down and where there's no jobs, where people go hungry.

00:24:24.120 So we got to avoid that.

00:24:26.040 So I think I've given you a bit of a short overview.

00:24:31.240 And I would be very happy to now to answer questions and how can we fix things.

00:24:42.160 Okay, so I would like to know, first of all, what skills you brought to Canada with you and how long it took you to acquire those skills, say, on the tool and die maker side.

00:24:53.600 And then also, what attitude you think you brought to bear to your work that enticed the first person, for example, to offer you a partnership, but that also made you capable of taking the risk and developing the vision to rent that first empty garage.

00:25:13.820 So how were you trained?

00:25:15.440 How long did that take?

00:25:17.020 What made you a good potential partner?

00:25:19.300 And why did you have enough daring, let's say, or vision to rent that first garage?

00:25:26.840 Well, the training, I served high school.

00:25:31.900 High school, it was only eight classes.

00:25:35.280 And I proposed to, in Canada, we should, high school should enter grade 10, grade 11, grade 12.

00:25:43.740 We should, students should focus, we should teach them trades.

00:25:48.400 And that doesn't mean that the students after grade 12 couldn't go to university.

00:25:53.140 I'm just now telling people the situation I was exposed to.

00:25:58.540 So it was a three and a half year program.

00:26:02.060 We had one or two days where we had theoretical stuff where we had to be in classrooms.

00:26:08.580 And let's say four days, we were in the workshop on the floor learning different things.

00:26:15.240 So that was the program.

00:26:16.860 What did you learn?

00:26:19.380 What skills did you acquire?

00:26:22.200 It, tool making is sort of for every, you need, let's say, let's take this pen here.

00:26:33.240 That's not made by hand.

00:26:34.740 There's so much precision, so much knowledge goes in a, in a, in a, in a, in a writing pen.

00:26:43.020 The ink's got to come out for the next few months.

00:26:46.480 It's such a minute that just that you can read and write.

00:26:49.600 So you got to make machines or tools or let's, people might, may understand.

00:26:58.500 Well, let's say a bumper for a car is not made by hand, huh?

00:27:02.040 Okay.

00:27:02.720 You need a mold because it's plastic, right?

00:27:05.400 And it's, you, so this is what tool making is about, right?

00:27:10.800 And this is, this is maybe the most important thread to, to get things done, to get things made, right?

00:27:23.100 When you take a, when you take a car, might it be a door, might it be a seat, might it be the bumper, right?

00:27:30.900 You need tools, you need ties, and that's special machinery.

00:27:34.760 So that will, call it the basics, would take three to four years.

00:27:39.860 And then it might take another few years till you slowly work yourself up that you'll be a qualified tool and die maker.

00:27:47.640 And so what machines did you learn to operate when you were doing your training?

00:27:55.080 And you also mentioned earlier that you were confident in putting yourself forward as a good problem solver.

00:28:01.580 And so what was the relationship between learning those machines?

00:28:05.300 What machines did you learn and how did that facilitate your development as a problem solver?

00:28:10.820 Interesting.

00:28:11.520 The first, when I came out of high school, my first day at that factory, you know,

00:28:16.340 I needed a platform because I couldn't quite reach up, right?

00:28:20.320 I was 14 years of age.

00:28:22.060 I couldn't reach up.

00:28:23.320 There was a vice grip mounted on the thing here.

00:28:26.280 And then there was a piece of steel.

00:28:29.120 The piece of steel was about four inches square, okay?

00:28:34.720 We took two people to lift that steel up on the vice grip. 0.85

00:28:40.120 And then we had a, then we had a hacksaw, a metal hacksaw.

00:28:46.380 We had to cut the piece down four inches square.

00:28:51.000 And that took, that took maybe a week, okay, till we cut the thing down.

00:28:56.720 And then it took maybe about three, four weeks.

00:29:00.500 We had to file it perfectly square.

00:29:03.000 So that, I mean, it's an amazing thing what that leads to and how you accumulate the precision work, right?

00:29:13.120 I did a similar school in Canada where we, where we, we had a school here to teach young kids how to be dull and die makers, right?

00:29:22.160 But anyway, so you go and then we learn, we learn things on a lathe where you make round things or a milling machine and lathe on precision, computerized machines, et cetera, et cetera.

00:29:37.900 So you go to a stage, right?

00:29:40.120 Okay.

00:29:40.880 So anyway, that's what we, I did my first job then in Toronto as a dull and die maker.

00:29:48.400 We made a stamping die, right?

00:29:51.100 We did to maybe punch out a piece of metal and with some holes in it.

00:29:57.380 And so that's basically what the dull and die maker does.

00:30:03.340 And as, as you go along, it gets more and more sophisticated.

00:30:08.100 Right, right.

00:30:08.580 So you got, you got familiarized with a wide variety of tools and the ability to make precision parts.

00:30:15.500 Now, you said you also became a good problem solver.

00:30:18.940 And then you also developed this idea that you could rent your own garage and start producing your own tools.

00:30:24.960 Now, one of the things you said was that when you went out to sell your services, you told your potential customers that you could solve a problem.

00:30:34.000 And if you didn't, they didn't have to pay you.

00:30:35.960 And, you know, the reason I want to focus on that in part is because I want to know how you developed the vision to rent that garage to begin with, but also how you knew that the proper thing to sell to potential customers was your service as a problem solver.

00:30:51.560 Right, because what you're saying to them essentially is, well, you guys have a problem and it's plaguing you and you need it solved.

00:30:59.580 And I'm the guy that can solve it and I'm willing to, you know, demonstrate my capabilities, which is, which is really an excellent approach to sales because you want to find out what the person's problem is and you want to be the solution.

00:31:10.720 But how did you develop that problem-solving ability and your confidence in it?

00:31:16.060 And then why did you think it was worth taking the risk to rent that first garage?

00:31:21.480 Jordan, you ask great questions.

00:31:23.520 I mean, those have to be answered.

00:31:25.540 The reason why I'm sitting here is, look, I want to roll off the experience I accumulated.

00:31:34.000 There's thousands and thousands and thousands of young Canadians out there which could do the same thing if we teach them the basics, right?

00:31:45.020 And I think a society would be much better off with thousands of smaller companies than one or two large companies, right?

00:31:54.280 That's what, that's the idea.

00:31:57.480 So anyway, so I opened up that factory.

00:32:01.080 I could solve a few problems.

00:32:03.520 I got some orders and I, like I said, after two years, I had about 20 people and I noticed my foreman was a little different, right?

00:32:14.940 Because when he had just got, you work so closely together, his name was Herman.

00:32:20.120 I said, Herman, what's the matter with you lately?

00:32:22.640 Well, he said, Frank, I'm thinking of opening my own factory.

00:32:27.020 I said, I sympathize with that.

00:32:29.680 That's what I did too.

00:32:31.080 I said, look, why don't we talk tomorrow?

00:32:34.360 Maybe we can find a better solution.

00:32:37.580 That evening I was talking to myself and I said to myself, if that foreman's going to leave me, that would stifle my growth.

00:32:45.560 I didn't like that.

00:32:46.600 The next reason was, if that foreman's going to leave me, I got to do all the work myself.

00:32:51.700 I like that even less.

00:32:52.800 The third reason was, if I hire a new foreman and I don't show him how to run the business, I still got to do all the work.

00:33:03.340 If I hire a new foreman and I show him how a business is run, it's just a question of time before he goes out and opens up his new factory.

00:33:13.520 I think the key is we need those experience.

00:33:20.340 There is this huge potential, right?

00:33:24.540 This huge energy, which lies tormenting people.

00:33:28.540 We have to teach them the right way.

00:33:30.200 So I think it's important while I'm still, I have everything in my mind quite clearly that we record that.

00:33:37.940 And it's great that you, your skill is to, to ask the right question.

00:33:42.520 How come and how what, right?

00:33:44.220 Okay.

00:33:44.520 So I'm, I'm delighted to sit here.

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00:34:54.260 Well, so you grew very rapidly.

00:34:59.560 So there's two mysteries there to me.

00:35:01.420 Because one of the things I've noticed with small businesses, for example,

00:35:05.520 is that it's very difficult to get your first customers, right?

00:35:08.380 It's very difficult to get from zero to one.

00:35:10.700 Once you have a customer or two, the next customers start to be easier

00:35:13.880 because you can refer them to other customers you have.

00:35:17.120 But getting those first people to decide that you're the person when no one else has done it

00:35:22.260 or has been willing to show that faith, that can be very tricky.

00:35:25.980 So what do you think you managed successfully to,

00:35:30.040 how do you think you managed to present yourself successfully

00:35:33.040 to the first people that you offered your services to?

00:35:36.540 Well, price or quality doesn't function, right?

00:35:42.380 And if you have a lot of knowledge and you transmit that knowledge to other people,

00:35:51.400 then you can give a great service, better pricing, better functioning machinery, better tools.

00:36:01.200 So that's the very key.

00:36:03.120 And that's what I would like to transmit.

00:36:05.320 So fortunately, around that time, that's why I'm always saying life is a question of faith and circumstances,

00:36:16.180 being at the right place at the right time.

00:36:18.780 Around the early 60s, you know, there was a free trade arrangement signed with the United States.

00:36:29.000 And I see this huge potential out there.

00:36:33.800 I should say, I didn't finish up when I talked the next day with my foreman,

00:36:40.200 where I said to him, look, why don't we open up a new factory?

00:36:46.280 You own a third?

00:36:48.360 And I said, no more overtime.

00:36:50.440 I own two thirds.

00:36:52.380 And by the end of the year, we take pro rata some monies out

00:36:57.200 and we leave some monies in for expansions.

00:37:01.060 He said, do you mean it?

00:37:02.180 I said, yes.

00:37:03.740 We went right away to a lawyer and signed the thing here.

00:37:07.480 And the guy hustled like crazy.

00:37:09.740 You know, he spent more time in there.

00:37:12.020 That was his factory.

00:37:13.780 Basically, I took the next foreman, the next foreman, the next foreman, the next foreman.

00:37:18.880 I said, business is easy.

00:37:20.560 And then when I had about, I think it was about six or seven factories and the free trade arrangement came under the being,

00:37:36.540 I saw this enormous potential up there.

00:37:39.300 Up to that now, I only shared with the foreman.

00:37:43.320 I said, if I, and then I got to know the United States better, Canada better, the power of the unions, the size of the unions.

00:37:52.260 And I said, if I, if I, I would have to do certain things to be competitive.

00:37:58.440 So, I had a friend of mine, machinery dealer, and he said, I can't explain to him, I really should go public.

00:38:11.640 Because I want to have the workers also participate.

00:38:15.840 Well, he says, I know, I know a fellow, which his name is, I'll remember the name, it's in my deal.

00:38:24.540 But anyway, he gave me the name.

00:38:27.100 I met him at the ski hill.

00:38:29.920 We went skiing to get up at George Beaks.

00:38:34.020 And he said, look, that was magnet electronics.

00:38:39.560 Okay.

00:38:39.940 He said, I have a certain age, I would like to retire.

00:38:43.760 Why do you, why don't you sell your companies in magnet electronics and, and you have close to control and then you could put that program in that where we also, where you can share the profits with workers.

00:38:59.380 So, that's what I find that I was totally green when it comes down to public company, right?

00:39:05.580 I did not have total control.

00:39:07.660 I had a port there, right?

00:39:09.940 And they were more in driving the stock up, right?

00:39:15.980 And the defense industry was very, they were mainly magnet electronics, did mainly defense work, right?

00:39:25.780 And that was very popular and I was an automotive and I said, after a year or so, I said, I don't think this makes a lot of, I said, I, I, I want to be out.

00:39:40.800 Okay.

00:39:41.200 And when I said, I said, okay, guys, but the market kind of went down, the shares there, they didn't have the monies.

00:40:03.440 I never sued anybody, and I just said, look, under the circumstances, you guys can't be on the board.

00:40:11.280 And then I put in different directors, and after a while, I went to the board and read to the public and say, I forgo 25% of my stocks if you, the shareholders, vote for a multiple vote.

00:40:27.560 Because I came to the conclusion, I want to run things, and I can't have 20 guys or 50 guys left and right discussing, debating forever, right?

00:40:40.020 So the shareholders voted for that.

00:40:45.980 Then I said, in return, I also give you a certain discipline.

00:40:51.520 This is where I put the global constitution in, that if I had control, I only could take out so much.

00:40:58.420 There was clear-cut control what management could do.

00:41:04.100 And that sort of became the MAGNA environment.

00:41:10.800 Well, let's go back to your foreman.

00:41:12.880 So you had said that when you made that arrangement with him, that you valued his work, and you wanted him around, and you were concerned that if he left, well, all of that work would fall on your shoulders again and also stop you from moving ahead.

00:41:27.540 And you sat down and contemplated what sort of deal you would have to make with him in order for his needs to be met and yours.

00:41:35.000 And there's something very important there about the nature of a deal.

00:41:38.220 You know, people often think that with a deal, you try to win, or with a deal, you try to compromise.

00:41:45.980 But my sense with a proper negotiation is that you want to figure out what you want so that you're thrilled to progress with the deal, and you want to figure out what your partner wants so he's thrilled to progress with the deal.

00:41:58.720 Because if you set it up that way, then your interests are aligned, and you're both going to work as hard as you can autonomously.

00:42:05.580 Now, you knew your foreman had the same kind of entrepreneurial vision you did, and you wanted to unleash his abilities.

00:42:13.280 And so you offered him a third of the company.

00:42:16.600 You said you'd take two-thirds.

00:42:18.400 And then you said he was thrilled, which is a good thing to have happen in a partner.

00:42:23.280 And he went off and treated this factory like it was his own, partly because it was.

00:42:28.240 Now, and then you said you duplicated that subsidiary structure across six factories and then expanded much more dramatically.

00:42:38.480 And you also, at that point, also noted that that principle of distributed ownership should be brought down to the workers.

00:42:45.780 So you were starting to develop that as an explicit philosophy.

00:42:48.700 Now, why do you think it was that you realized that your foreman needed ownership?

00:42:59.860 Why do you think you were willing to grant it to him?

00:43:02.720 And why do you think that the agreement that you made, which was that you would own one-third of the – or that he would own one-third of the company and you would own two-thirds, why do you think that was a desirable and compelling motivational arrangement for your foreman?

00:43:19.880 First of all, a deal, a deal, it's got to be a deal for both sides.

00:43:25.680 It's got to be good, right?

00:43:27.660 And as a company grows, circumstances might change a bit, et cetera, et cetera.

00:43:32.940 So you make provisions if you can.

00:43:35.360 The reason why I think he was delighted with the deal is when we had verbal arrangements, I never went back on my word.

00:43:51.600 I think that's a very key, right?

00:43:53.800 So he felt comfortable when they say we take out a third, right?

00:43:58.340 We take out a portion in a pro rata.

00:44:02.740 So he felt kind of comfortable, right?

00:44:06.000 That I – that I – that's very crucial.

00:44:11.660 Like later on, if I – you know, once when they had about 30 or 40 or 50 or 100 factories, and I had a prospective manager, which I interviewed,

00:44:22.520 I said, look, there's the name, the addresses of 100 factories, whoever manager you want to choose and ask them how I run things.

00:44:37.860 Okay?

00:44:38.340 The message that I wanted to get across, if you promise something, you must keep it.

00:44:44.140 It doesn't matter what the thing is.

00:44:46.700 Because if you got the ability, you can always make monies.

00:44:51.720 If you lose your reputation, you can never repair.

00:44:56.340 So I think I had a reputation built up.

00:44:59.760 And again, when I said small companies, you don't need – you don't need a form of structure.

00:45:07.380 It's kind of loose.

00:45:08.740 It's pure free enterprise.

00:45:11.040 Like when I was small, when I had about 20, 30 or 40 workers, I showed you my bank book and said, look, this is a contract we have here.

00:45:18.640 If you do X, X, X, X, I shared with you, right?

00:45:22.000 So you don't – it's pure free enterprise.

00:45:24.620 And that's what I want to get across.

00:45:26.920 That's pure capitalism.

00:45:28.540 But capitalism, if we don't change, if we do not like workers participate, capitalistic, the system is self-destructive.

00:45:39.100 And let me give you a quick story, right?

00:45:41.340 I spent a lot of time in Washington.

00:45:44.080 At one time, I had a meeting with the leader of the House, Mitch McConnell.

00:45:48.180 He's the senator from Kentucky.

00:45:49.920 He was the president of the Senate.

00:45:51.680 I had a farm in Kentucky, so I knew him.

00:45:54.340 So I said, Mitch, let's – you know, I'd like to see you one of those days.

00:45:59.320 So we arranged.

00:46:00.260 I met him.

00:46:01.280 And I said, Mitch, America did great while the free enterprise system.

00:46:07.040 And without free enterprise, there's no free society.

00:46:10.760 So we must do everything we can to have free enterprise.

00:46:13.920 But I said, free enterprise got a major problem.

00:46:17.960 So he said, what do you mean by that?

00:46:19.880 And I said, Mitch, more and more capital is held by few and fewer.

00:46:25.640 And I said, in nature, when a species does not reproduce itself, another species will take over.

00:46:33.400 And the laws of nature are much stronger than any man-made law, right?

00:46:38.100 And that's what happens now.

00:46:39.980 That's the way we're going to go.

00:46:41.780 So we've got to share with the employees.

00:46:44.800 Because without employees, we can't make a profit.

00:46:47.960 And if employees make more monies, they have more purchasing power.

00:46:52.660 The economy functions better, okay?

00:46:55.520 So we must have the large companies.

00:46:59.440 They must have more of a discipline because they – sometimes they run by institutions, by – and they have got no more affinity for people.

00:47:08.820 They just look at the share price.

00:47:10.820 They look at the profits.

00:47:11.960 So it's not there, right?

00:47:14.180 So the owners are not there anymore.

00:47:17.720 So anyway, we need a discipline there.

00:47:20.940 But we must open up.

00:47:23.700 We must.

00:47:24.420 It's so crucial that small enterprise that we don't tie them up in chains and with regulations.

00:47:30.380 You highlighted three things, you know.

00:47:34.340 The first thing you highlighted was that the people that you were negotiating could trust you.

00:47:40.540 Now, people who are cynically critical of capitalism tend to justify that by noting the sort of winner-take-all problem that you described.

00:47:53.320 And then they presume that if you're greedy and you shovel everything towards yourself, you're most likely to, let's say, win in the capitalist enterprise.

00:48:01.880 But you pointed out something very much contrary to that.

00:48:04.860 Three things, actually.

00:48:05.840 The first is that you don't develop a reputation by screwing other people.

00:48:11.480 You develop a reputation by telling other people what you're going to do and then bloody well doing it.

00:48:15.920 And that you should also write down what you say you're going to do so that everybody remembers and knows exactly what the deal is.

00:48:22.820 That you said that by the time you were negotiating, let's say, with a foreman who wanted to leave, you had enough track record with him of trust so that he believed that you would do what you said you were going to do.

00:48:34.180 And he could envision a future with you without having to worry about your motivations.

00:48:38.320 So you established your trust.

00:48:39.780 Then you also realized that he was going to be a hell of a lot more motivated if he was an owner in the system, right?

00:48:47.160 And so your answer to the problem of capitalism isn't exactly less capitalism.

00:48:53.520 It's a much more distributed and generous form of capitalism that pulls everybody, the workers and the managers and owners, into the profit-making structure.

00:49:04.460 Now, the other advantage, this is so cool, because I've learned this as I've built enterprises, too.

00:49:10.880 If you make a really great deal with someone and the person's good and they're competent and they're honest and they're productive and they're generous, if you make a really good deal with them and you can let them go off on their own, that means that they're going to take care of a thousand details on their own, keeping their own affairs in order that you don't have to take care of anymore.

00:49:30.660 You don't have to micromanage. And that means that you can go off and expand your enterprise and do your own thing.

00:49:37.300 And so the advantage you gain by distributing more responsibility, let's say, to an extremely competent foreman, the advantage you gain is massive freedom.

00:49:46.820 And you also gain the advantage of the fact that that foreman who now partakes in the enterprise is going to be much more motivated to make the enterprise work.

00:49:56.440 And so even if you end up paying him more, like a third of the company, let's say, or the profit share that you described, the overall profit is going to be so much greater that there's nothing in it but benefit for you and for him.

00:50:08.280 And then you also pointed out, and this is a very crucial thing for people to understand because this is where the left-wing critics of capitalism actually have a point, although it's not a problem that's specific to capitalism, which is that as an enterprise grows, and it doesn't matter what the enterprise is, the benefits tend to flow into the hands of fewer and fewer people.

00:50:31.120 And that destabilizes the whole damn enterprise, because you get too many slaves on the bottom and not enough pharaohs on the top, and that produces discontent and dissatisfaction and amotivation, and that can bring the whole damn system to a halt.

00:50:46.320 So your solution to that was to set up this constitution that you described, which also enabled you to grow. 0.97

00:50:53.620 I'm going to review it again because it's very, very important.

00:50:57.300 This is the economic charter of rights.

00:50:59.400 So your management philosophy is to distribute responsibility and profit, and to make that an explicit part of the agreement.

00:51:10.840 And the deal is 20% of the profits go to the shareholders, 6% to the management, 10% to the workers, 2% to charity, 7% reinvested in research and further development.

00:51:28.300 And you make that explicit.

00:51:29.300 Now, the trust you described is also crucial, because the workers with whom you're arranging to share the profits aren't going to trust that deal or go along with it if they think you're going to gerrymander the books on the profit side, right?

00:51:44.620 They have to actually believe that you're going to play a straight game.

00:51:48.280 But if you can explain to them that, well, you're going to play a straight game because if you motivate them properly, they're going to work a hell of a lot harder, and everybody's going to make a lot more money, and the products are going to have higher quality, and we're going to sell more.

00:52:00.360 Then there's absolutely nothing there for people to, you know, steal selfishly and run away with.

00:52:07.200 There's only the possibility that all that distributed responsibility and ability is going to produce more and more, well, it's going to be more and more productive and more and more generous.

00:52:15.840 Now, I asked you when we met at the restaurant a couple of months ago whether or not you had run into labor problems as you grew, because going from, you know, no employees to 100,000, you're obviously going to be dealing with potential labor issues.

00:52:31.020 And you've said that as a consequence of this Constitution and the trustworthiness of the process that you've had, that you've been able to pay your workers a premium rate, but that you've also had almost no labor trouble.

00:52:43.020 Is that correct?

00:52:44.080 Have I got that right?

00:52:45.500 Yeah, that is correct.

00:52:46.820 And the interesting part about it is we were basically in the automobile industry, and the Auto Workers Union was maybe the strongest union in America, right?

00:53:02.640 Okay.

00:53:03.180 So anyway, the president of the Canadian Auto Workers Union, his name was Buzz Hargrove, or still is his name.

00:53:12.920 And I called him, and I said, Buzz, let's have lunch.

00:53:19.200 The two of us, we have an obligation.

00:53:23.580 What are we going to do to maintain jobs and create new jobs?

00:53:28.260 I said, let's have lunch.

00:53:30.060 So we agreed, and then we sat down and said, Buzz, it shouldn't be that difficult to put on one page what's important for the workers, and on one page what's important for business.

00:53:42.920 And we call that a framework of economic justice.

00:53:48.740 After a few weeks, we managed it a bit.

00:53:53.140 We agreed on the thing, on that structure.

00:53:56.720 He said to me, I might not get it through to my membership.

00:54:02.840 Okay.

00:54:03.280 But he did get it through, and we incorporated that.

00:54:10.080 We took two factories where we said, look, we're going to try and see how that works, right?

00:54:17.240 The part was our workers were very upset.

00:54:22.000 They said, look, we're fine.

00:54:24.860 We are happy.

00:54:25.680 You want to change a total different thing here?

00:54:28.040 I said, look, I have an obligation.

00:54:32.920 We live in a society.

00:54:34.480 We are a very important part of that society.

00:54:37.820 We got to find ways and means.

00:54:40.280 Can we learn from that, right?

00:54:42.120 Because when I made my, you know, if you have a few hundred factories, when I made my rounds, I made it a habit always to, at least every month I see maybe a new factory, which I haven't seen for a while.

00:54:59.080 So, when I made my rounds, I got the workers together, and I said, look, those are the basic principles.

00:55:06.820 But I said, let's make one thing clear.

00:55:10.180 No government can guarantee your jobs.

00:55:13.060 No union can guarantee your jobs.

00:55:16.060 Not even Magna can guarantee your jobs.

00:55:19.000 But I'm the head of the Magna.

00:55:20.860 I can guarantee one thing, the basic principles.

00:55:24.420 And that is, the very key, I said, is if we, if labor and management work together and make a quality product, that's the best guarantee.

00:55:40.900 That's the best guarantee.

00:55:42.300 And we can make the quality product if we, if we communicate and we put a very important structure in, in our company, right?

00:55:54.720 We audit the human capital.

00:55:58.860 It's a very, it's a very unusual thing here.

00:56:03.080 First of all, I put in a hotline.

00:56:05.540 I had some trusted people, and we got a big notice in the factories.

00:56:15.140 If you're unhappy with something, that's something, discrimination or unfairness or women get busted by, whatever it is, call a hotline.

00:56:28.020 But you don't have to give your name.

00:56:30.280 And I had people then investigate, those were trusted people.

00:56:37.080 And now when I would talk with managers, they said, that's one of the best things you did.

00:56:43.340 Because the first reaction when they did that, they said, the manager said, are you spying on us?

00:56:49.520 They were unhappy.

00:56:50.800 But now it's another.

00:56:52.640 Because if you have an unhappy employee, unhappiness is contagious.

00:56:59.880 If you've got unhappy employees, there's no way you can make a quality product at a competitive price.

00:57:06.820 So that's very, so we've done that on a verbal thing where we have a den.

00:57:12.980 And then we did actually an audit, a human audit, where an employee got done with no name on it.

00:57:27.240 And they could take it home and fill it out.

00:57:32.760 You know, various questions, is it safe, is it fair, discrimination, whatever.

00:57:37.860 You could fill it out.

00:57:40.400 And there's only one in an envelope, no name on it.

00:57:45.400 And you drop it in a box.

00:57:47.880 And it's collected.

00:57:49.280 And then we analyze it.

00:57:51.040 And we could see right away if there was a problem.

00:57:55.900 Okay?

00:57:56.260 We could see it.

00:57:57.140 So that is another very, because as a manager, let's say, the average factory was about 200 people an hour, an hour.

00:58:10.300 And that's another very important thing to become.

00:58:13.140 I always had efficiency experts come to me.

00:58:15.820 Christ, you got over 400 factories.

00:58:17.940 Reduce it, you know.

00:58:18.960 Reduce it maybe to 20 or whatever.

00:58:21.100 That means to have maybe 5,000, 10,000 people per factory.

00:58:27.300 People become a number.

00:58:30.020 It doesn't work.

00:58:31.220 It doesn't work, right?

00:58:33.000 So we, look, you should never forget the human side, right?

00:58:38.780 By having smaller factories and we, let's say the factory is located more in the northerly region, it's run like a factory, right?

00:58:47.780 If hunting season comes and some people want to take some time off, other people jump in and say, look, I cover for you.

00:58:55.040 I've worked the extra time.

00:58:57.260 It's, it's, it's, everything relates to people.

00:59:01.160 The workers got to be an equal.

00:59:03.200 And I said to myself and I said to the managers, your number one thing is every day you got to work.

00:59:10.360 Are you respected by the workers?

00:59:13.040 That's your main aim.

00:59:15.540 You got to be respected.

00:59:17.020 And once when you built that thing, then you'd be productive, right?

00:59:21.560 You'd be, they think of, the workers think of better ways to make things, right?

00:59:27.320 And there, in business, it's easy.

00:59:30.300 All you have to do is make a better product for a better price.

00:59:34.500 That's as easy as it is.

00:59:35.960 So, you pointed out there are a number of things that are extremely interesting.

00:59:41.620 So, one of them, imagine that you're trying to differentiate your enterprise as it grows.

00:59:48.060 You have 100,000 employees and obviously there has to be a hierarchy between you and them.

00:59:52.560 The question is, what size should the pieces of that hierarchy be?

00:59:57.120 You know, there's an anthropological literature that relates cortical expansion, so brain size, to average group size in primate communities.

01:00:08.200 And the optimized group size for human beings seems to be something around 200.

01:00:14.900 What generally happens in hunter-gatherer societies is that if a society exceeds about 200 individuals, it'll break into two separate societies.

01:00:25.780 That's very common.

01:00:27.560 And I think the reason for that is, well, I think the reason for that is the one that you just pointed out,

01:00:32.020 is that once a network of associations gets to be too big, you stop having that personal connection with people and you start to become a number.

01:00:42.820 Like, I've certainly seen this in educational institutions.

01:00:45.600 You know, the huge universities reduce the university students to numbers.

01:00:50.880 They're irrelevant.

01:00:52.140 There's no personal relationship.

01:00:53.900 And so, the students end up feeling alienated and that demolishes their motivation.

01:00:58.640 And, you know, in the typical educational apparatus in the higher education field, you have a 40% dropout in the first year.

01:01:06.640 And that's a catastrophic figure.

01:01:08.940 And I know a college, Hillsdale College, a small place, it's only got 1,200 people and it's hierarchically organized.

01:01:16.240 They've managed to get their dropout rate down to 1%.

01:01:19.140 So, 40% is an absolute crime.

01:01:22.000 Now, you, how do you do, you talked about human audit.

01:01:25.800 You also talked about allowing employees to put forward their concerns and to indicate their unhappiness with process

01:01:36.820 and to bring new ideas to the forefront without having to worry that they were going to be targeted for doing so.

01:01:43.000 And that was very effective.

01:01:44.420 So, you set up communication networks in your factories and you kept them small so you could do that.

01:01:48.600 How do you guys do in terms of employee wages, in terms of per capita employee productivity, and with regard to turnover?

01:02:00.360 Well, first of all, I want to listen to you.

01:02:03.720 There is, in universities, a lecture course of what is the optimum people on the leadership, etc.,

01:02:14.840 and how many people are below or whatever.

01:02:17.400 It's 200, right?

01:02:18.900 So, I should go back to school to maybe learn more about that.

01:02:22.860 So, that's about it.

01:02:24.160 In practice, you get to know, you learn as you go along.

01:02:30.500 In practice, every business might be a little different, right?

01:02:35.140 But in our thing, what I could see about a factory, we do on the people, the manager has to gain and practically know everybody by his first name.

01:02:47.200 And how is Billy, your son?

01:02:49.180 How is he in football?

01:02:50.800 It's that kind of environment, right?

01:02:53.220 A genuine, not a phony one, right?

01:02:56.240 Not a phony one.

01:02:57.680 Because employees will realize if it's phony, you know, or if it's genuinely meant, right?

01:03:05.000 That's very crucial, right?

01:03:07.540 So, anyway, over the years, I gave a lot of lectures in universities.

01:03:14.460 And I always thought the students, when they started out, the success of life can only be measured.

01:03:22.640 The degree of happiness you reach, you have.

01:03:25.580 But I said, let me tell you from my experience, it's a lot easier to be happy if you got some monies.

01:03:32.360 The smart students always have to ask, well, how can we make some monies?

01:03:37.360 So, I said, look, if you be around 20 in your early 20s, you don't know yourself that well.

01:03:43.940 Experiment a bit.

01:03:45.840 Do something what you enjoy.

01:03:48.220 When you enjoy something, you're going to be good in it.

01:03:51.480 If you put in the extra effort, you could be one of the best, whatever it is.

01:03:57.340 If you be one of the best, money is a byproduct.

01:04:01.200 But I said, but one thing don't forget.

01:04:05.400 You must not forget.

01:04:07.820 Life has been great to you.

01:04:09.800 Your parents sacrificed that you perhaps went to school.

01:04:12.680 You have a right to use that knowledge, what you accumulated in school, for your own benefits.

01:04:19.460 But never forget, a portion of that wisdom, of that knowledge, got to go back to society for a better society.

01:04:30.940 But the very interesting thing is, it's only the last number of years I came to the conclusion that, look, we have no faculties, right?

01:04:43.320 I mean, as far as I can see universities, their mandate is to teach young people, can we have a more civilized society?

01:04:53.720 Or be more specific, can we teach young people, can we as a university participate to develop a structure which could lead to an ideal society?

01:05:08.040 That should be the main focus of a university.

01:05:11.700 Yes, we in the universities, we teach great medicine, great art, great sport, great technology.

01:05:19.560 But we do not teach, you know, what is the structure of an ideal society.

01:05:27.700 But it dawned on me, in the United States, about 70% of the universities are subsidized by private industry.

01:05:34.700 And in Canada, 100% under the provincial jurisdiction, okay, 100% subsidized.

01:05:45.140 And management doesn't want to bite the hand which feeds them.

01:05:50.580 Okay, but luckily I could convince the minister of education, of universities, Jill Roundtree,

01:06:00.240 and I think I'm doing a series in search of the ideal structure, which would lead to an ideal society.

01:06:09.580 Your workers, you've had little labor trouble formally.

01:06:15.620 How do you know that your workers are in fact, like, comparatively well paid in relationship to other enterprises of your type?

01:06:23.880 And how do you guys do in terms of retention and promotion?

01:06:27.720 Well, we have, we do constantly a survey.

01:06:33.600 The corporate constitution says the wage has got to be average to the competition within the region.

01:06:40.380 And the profits, the profits have laid down.

01:06:46.160 We had a formula.

01:06:49.260 It's not up to a manager to say, like that person or this or that.

01:06:53.280 She's beautiful or whatever.

01:06:55.340 It's, we have a formula.

01:06:57.920 The formula was based upon, we wanted to reward loyalty.

01:07:03.900 And suppose you get a point for every year you've been with the company.

01:07:08.380 Suppose you've been with the company five years.

01:07:10.960 You get five points for loyalty.

01:07:12.820 And suppose you get a point for every $5,000 you earn.

01:07:18.020 And suppose you earn $50,000, you get them points for knowledge, right?

01:07:23.460 And the more points you have, the more you share out of the bot, right?

01:07:29.280 But it's pre-formulated, right?

01:07:31.260 So we want to reward loyalty and performance.

01:07:36.900 The managers are separate, right?

01:07:38.920 They purely participate in their factory.

01:07:44.520 I've always said there is no bad employees, only bad managers.

01:07:50.360 And the bad, or there's very few bad managers.

01:07:56.360 Or let me rephrase it.

01:07:58.460 There's a few, there's some managers which need more learning experience, right?

01:08:05.780 But there's very few bad managers.

01:08:07.400 But there's no bad employees, okay?

01:08:11.000 Because we, it's our thing to, it's our thing to assist them in learning.

01:08:19.140 And what makes a factory run?

01:08:21.340 And I guess as a businessman, it's what makes the economy run in a country.

01:08:27.820 The economy, we need a new model of the economy.

01:08:31.880 And I think Canada could be the first country with an economic chart of rights.

01:08:40.780 The economic chart of rights, it's fundamental.

01:08:45.100 How many companies, okay, you've had a lot of success with this particular model of corporate governance.

01:08:50.420 And it's allowed you to grow very rapidly, to develop a very large enterprise,

01:08:54.820 and to maintain it across now quite a long time.

01:08:57.500 Because it's about 50 years, 70 years, 70 years.

01:09:00.980 That's very long in the corporate world.

01:09:04.040 How widespread have your ideas of constitutional profit sharing become?

01:09:11.120 And what, in your view, has been the impediment to their wider acceptance?

01:09:17.880 Well, keep in mind, I was for many years on the corporate governance board of NASDAQ,

01:09:22.740 or the New York Stock Exchange.

01:09:24.280 Okay, where we take a look, minority interest, or the market not behaving properly, right?

01:09:32.920 And we worked at, we interfaced with the SEC Security Commission and brought forward that the market needs changing.

01:09:41.400 Okay?

01:09:42.220 There's no difference in here.

01:09:45.180 It's a constant, and it should be done within the company, right?

01:09:52.100 And so it's expected that management live to certain standards.

01:09:59.640 Employees have to live in society.

01:10:02.780 We have to teach standards.

01:10:04.480 We have to, we don't teach enough for our kids what it's all about.

01:10:10.880 Okay?

01:10:12.080 And I moved to, after I finished my schooling in Austria, I moved to Switzerland, right?

01:10:20.240 And I, it was a great learning experience.

01:10:26.300 It's a great country with great people.

01:10:29.480 It's made relatively easy to demand a referendum.

01:10:35.060 Okay, and so on important things to have referendums, in about two years, I think it was in the Wall Street Journal,

01:10:45.620 Swiss people defeated the referendum to have more vacation.

01:10:51.660 I think the referendum was to move the vacation up from three weeks to five weeks.

01:10:57.980 The people defeated it and said, we cannot afford it.

01:11:01.760 Right, right.

01:11:03.040 It's the ultimate democracy.

01:11:06.060 So why have the ideas that you've put forward in relationship to the corporate constitution not being accepted and implemented by more companies, do you think?

01:11:18.020 I mean, your model has shown that if you're more generous with the profit distribution, and if you formalize that distribution, you seem to gain an increment productivity.

01:11:26.600 And so why, also given the fact that, you know, capital tends to accrue in the hands of fewer and fewer people, and that that's a problem for the maintenance of the popularity of the capitalist system in general,

01:11:39.960 why do you think your economic model hasn't met with more acceptance?

01:11:44.200 Is it just that it's too new?

01:11:46.100 You know, I mean, new ideas take a long time to distribute.

01:11:48.820 What's the impediment?

01:11:50.460 Sure.

01:11:50.840 I brought a book, The Greed Factor, right?

01:11:53.000 And homo sapiens are born with some greed.

01:11:56.980 Without greed, homo sapiens cannot exist.

01:12:01.820 But greed, after a certain thing, it's the most destructive force.

01:12:05.880 So, like I said, I've pinned on the corporate governance board.

01:12:14.300 It's what an education.

01:12:16.780 We've made it too complicated for public companies, right?

01:12:21.620 The paragraphs, like, I mean, it's so complicated that it's just a feasible anymore, right?

01:12:31.200 So, young entrepreneurs are thinking, ah, that's, it's, it's, and so everything is more complicated.

01:12:38.140 So, we got to get back again.

01:12:40.860 And there was nothing wrong with Canada about 40, 50, 60 years ago.

01:12:48.820 So, everything functioned quite well.

01:12:51.660 So, we have, we have gotten into that, where we, where we analyze, where we, where we, look, when you look at our, what, the best, the best way to, to bring it across is, when you take a look at our DAX code, codex, it's a DAX book with thousands of paragraphs.

01:13:16.740 Keep in mind, when I fully run Magna, I had 20 lawyers on one side of my office, and 20 financial exports just on the other side.

01:13:28.440 When I went to the lawyers, since I like to do XXX, is that within the law?

01:13:34.640 Well, they say that's within the law.

01:13:36.940 I went to the thing here, now, how is it treated from a DAX point of view?

01:13:41.220 After, after a week, you know, you get the thing, it's so complete, it's so great, it could be the way.

01:13:49.160 But they said, there's some, there's some experts down in the city, which, so you gift, you, you, you, you sent them the problem or the clarification.

01:14:01.900 After a few weeks, they get a big bill, and they say, it can be either way.

01:14:05.300 So everything, every, every paragraph, there's, there's thousands and thousands, they're more convoluted than the others.

01:14:14.540 Until we have a DAX system, black and white, where everybody can fill out down, we have, how can a society function?

01:14:23.300 The DAX system is, is slandered in favor of, of, of, of specialized interest groups.

01:14:32.580 That's the dilemma.

01:14:33.360 Well, so you mentioned earlier in our conversation that you believe that it would be very difficult for you to start your, you know, dual garage basic factory today, that the regulatory burden would be just too high.

01:14:51.640 And so, you know, as societies move forward in time, they tend to accrue more and more rules, right?

01:14:57.960 They tend to stagnate themselves, and that's a constant danger.

01:15:00.960 I mean, one of the advantages to the capitalist system is that large, unwieldy enterprises that no longer function get killed by the market, disappear.

01:15:11.900 And we don't really have an equivalent function of death, let's say, in the bureaucratic realm.

01:15:17.700 We have elections, but that doesn't really affect the bureaucratic state.

01:15:20.960 Do you have any sense of how it might be possible to clear out some of the regulations that are impeding entrepreneurial development?

01:15:30.560 And do you, have you had any success in talking to politicians, let's say, in Canada, about how that, some of that house cleaning might occur?

01:15:38.920 The politicians can't do it.

01:15:41.120 I could give you many reasons, and maybe some other times we have a little more time.

01:15:45.740 But, again, I want to point out, no chainsaw approach.

01:15:51.420 It's not the fault of the bureaucrats.

01:15:54.660 It's the fault of the system.

01:15:56.760 But one civilized way would be not to rehire until he reaches a certain status, right?

01:16:03.000 And it's got to relate to the GDP, to, you know, to the GDP, to what we can create.

01:16:13.100 It needs X, same as a management needs X managers, the same a society could have, where to, on the bureaucratic side, a certain percentage related to the market, to what does the country produce.

01:16:34.020 Let's talk a little bit about the future now.

01:16:36.860 One of the things we discussed when we first met was a new product that you're bringing to market.

01:16:41.440 And on the cheap and easily accessible transportation side, especially for urban commuters, do you want to talk about the product that you guys are bringing to market soon?

01:16:52.980 And where you're going to build that and what your vision is for that?

01:16:56.520 Yes.

01:16:57.100 About two years ago, the premier called me, and he said, I got a problem.

01:17:01.260 I said, what?

01:17:02.340 He said, Channel Motors is closing.

01:17:04.180 You know the car industry.

01:17:05.320 I got inducted into the American Automotive Hall of Fame in 2018.

01:17:11.640 So I said, yeah, give me a few days.

01:17:14.440 Give me a week.

01:17:15.200 I'll bring forward something.

01:17:17.600 At around that time, I had to go downtown a few times.

01:17:21.400 I should say the Magna Head office is in Aurora, which is about 21 minutes down to the 401, right?

01:17:31.380 And so anyway, around that time, I had to go downtown a few times.

01:17:35.580 What used to take me half an hour from the outer ring to the inner ring to Bay Street, now would take, if everything is fine, would take an hour, but it could take two hours.

01:17:45.260 So I got stuck a few times, two hours, and I said, what a waste of human energy.

01:17:52.420 What a waste of non-renewable energy.

01:17:55.620 But most of all, to inhale the carbon monoxide for two hours on the way in, two hours at home, you know, I said, what damage that does to the health, to the well-being of people.

01:18:13.940 So anyway, I went back to the workbench, okay?

01:18:19.480 I should say Magna is a major car manufacturing company.

01:18:24.340 We have one factory where we produce all the Mini Coopers for the whole world.

01:18:29.560 We shipped out of our factories right into the showrooms, right across the world.

01:18:34.660 We developed the Aston Martin, the repeat, you know, right from our factory shipped to the showrooms.

01:18:42.460 A very unique car, no welding, no screwing.

01:18:45.460 It was built like an airplane.

01:18:47.960 It was glued together, right?

01:18:50.440 But anyway, so I think I've done that for 60 years.

01:18:57.720 I came to the conclusion it's got to be a small electric car.

01:19:01.920 I think we coined the phrase micro-mobility.

01:19:05.980 And in loose terms, micro-mobility means you need, you've got to be able to park at least four outdoors in a regular car parking spot.

01:19:16.460 To be more precise, they cannot be wider than three and a half feet, not longer than seven feet.

01:19:22.200 And you can plug it in, in any electric outlet once in a while.

01:19:27.880 And in a few hours, you can go 100 kilometers with it for less than a dollar.

01:19:34.880 Or you can have a quick charging too.

01:19:37.000 So it will change transportation.

01:19:40.720 Its main purpose is to get people from your home to your workplace and back home.

01:19:45.140 We also have done an equivalent small pickup truck, which will do inner-city merchandise delivery.

01:19:55.880 And I should be in mass production about two, three months.

01:20:00.500 The fact is just throughout we got the first prototype coming off the line.

01:20:06.540 And it will change transportation for many reasons.

01:20:13.160 The primary reason is there's only so much oil in the grounds.

01:20:19.900 The reason why gasoline prices are relatively cheap is the United States is utilizing 120 million tons of grain to convert it into ethanol to keep the gasoline price down.

01:20:33.100 You can't do that for long because the next wave will be, or the critical wave for society will be food shortages in the world.

01:20:43.160 Not triggered by the Ukraine.

01:20:44.960 It would have come anyway, but will be accelerated quicker by what goes on in the Ukraine, because the Ukraine is a major food producer.

01:20:54.160 So the United States can't do that.

01:20:57.560 So the gasoline prices will go up dramatically.

01:21:01.020 I would say will double in two, three years.

01:21:03.860 But most of all, I predict in eight years, gasoline will be rationalized, will only be available for essential purposes.

01:21:12.980 One of the essential purposes will be electric trucks.

01:21:16.540 Not electric, pardon me.

01:21:18.480 Gasoline trucks will haul the food from the farms to the cities, because the grid power will not be there for large electric trucks.

01:21:27.380 Or you will not solve the traffic chains, because there is the grid power isn't there.

01:21:33.380 It would take much time to do it.

01:21:36.540 You might have to go with small atomic powered stations, right?

01:21:40.940 But that's another thing here, right?

01:21:44.180 But the grid system isn't there.

01:21:46.580 I built the first hydrogen car with BMW about 15 years ago.

01:21:57.060 Yes, it works, but much more expensive, much more expensive.

01:22:01.820 And I see a small electric car, you know, that's the answer for now for the next 50, 100 years.

01:22:11.380 Do you want to talk a little bit about what it looks like and what people can expect to see and experience when they use this particular vehicle?

01:22:21.600 Okay.

01:22:22.600 They're basically small, right?

01:22:24.820 We, again, its main purpose is to go from your home to your workplace and back home.

01:22:33.120 Okay.

01:22:33.480 And that means we have stifled the speed at 32 kilometers per hour, right?

01:22:42.660 So, basically, the insurance be so minimal or practically none because you can't do any damage.

01:22:51.980 So, and two people can sit in the car and the people in the pickup truck, there's four people can sit in there.

01:23:02.160 It could be a taxi, it could be a, you know, merchandise delivery vehicle.

01:23:11.080 So, yeah, I think we have, we showed it on the Canadian Auto Show.

01:23:18.360 We had the biggest lineups and thousands of people drove it.

01:23:21.800 They got all enthusiastic about it.

01:23:24.800 And the key question is, how do we got to get around?

01:23:30.480 That's the key question.

01:23:31.520 Right.

01:23:32.080 Well, it looked like, it looked like a kind of a hybrid between electric car and a motorcycle, essentially.

01:23:39.180 And the, you mentioned as well, you know, that many families have a conundrum where, because there are two people working and they tend to work in different locations, that they need two vehicles.

01:23:49.320 And one of the vehicles and both vehicles are very expensive and they're, they're over-determined for the purpose.

01:23:56.500 People need a commuter vehicle, essentially, as well as an ordinary vehicle to do all the other things they need to do with it.

01:24:03.720 And your sense was that this vehicle would supply a low-cost alternative to people who need, primarily need transportation to work and back.

01:24:11.760 And who wouldn't be using the vehicle, who would be using their other vehicle for primary purposes other than that?

01:24:17.240 Does that seem about right?

01:24:18.640 A few changes.

01:24:19.720 Because when I looked, when I looked down the road, now, usually call it the middle class as a two-car garage, two cars, right? 0.77

01:24:28.220 Because the husband maybe went to work, in some cases the wife do, but in many cases the wife stayed home. 0.72

01:24:37.660 She had kids, had to bring the kids to school or did the shopping, et cetera, et cetera. 0.95

01:24:42.020 So when I looked down the road, I think you need a special permit for a large electric car for a family that you could go to the cottage for special purposes, not for daily commute.

01:24:54.400 Okay, and you have two or three, and you could actually get four small cars in there in a regular two-car garage.

01:25:05.200 And this is where cats see their friends or where the wife or the husband go shopping.

01:25:13.720 So you run around, right, to do things, meet up with your friends and go to school or whatever, go to work.

01:25:21.920 Again, just it's reliable transport at low cost and no greenhouse gases.

01:25:31.540 I would like to thank you very much for the time you spent today.

01:25:35.900 I think it's very useful to explain to people.

01:25:38.880 I think it's extremely useful to have explained to people.

01:25:42.160 Jordan, I don't want to flatter you.

01:25:44.200 You are gifted to bring out the inner workings of a lot of machinery, a lot of people.

01:25:53.160 And that's, you know, as a technician, yes, I'd be able to transfer reasonably well, but you have a gift to transmit it that it be easily understood by the people.

01:26:05.800 So I'm delighted that I came.

01:26:07.820 I'm delighted that I was invited.

01:26:09.540 Well, what struck me in our conversations was the importance of disseminating your vision for fostering a generous productivity.

01:26:22.460 You know, you created an enterprise that's distributed.

01:26:27.460 You said that you've made millionaires out of many of your foremen, out of people who've rose to the position where they could run their own factories.

01:26:34.340 You've given people the opportunity to have a tremendous amount of autonomy under your overarching authority and to bring out the best of them as they build their own factories and as they employ more and more people.

01:26:48.220 And you've managed also to distribute that responsibility and opportunity all the way down to the workers.

01:26:56.300 And, you know, it's absolutely obvious to me that there's never been a more effective machine for producing wealth than the free exchange capitalist system.

01:27:08.440 The data on that are crystal clear.

01:27:10.220 As soon as you stop countries from doing absolutely idiotic economic things and free up their population under a quasi-capitalist market, then everybody becomes richer.

01:27:20.840 Then you have the emergent problem of inequality, and that's a problem. 0.65

01:27:25.580 But your system of distributed profits, given that it's honestly run, is a reasonable solution to that problem.

01:27:32.700 And it's very good to hear you talk about how motivated you've been to build the company and to produce all the products you have, but also how much you've been able to motivate other people while being productive and solving the problem of unequal distribution.

01:27:48.400 So thank you very much for bringing that to everyone's attention.

01:27:52.160 I got it.

01:27:53.140 I got it.

01:27:53.720 I had a few more words.

01:27:54.840 My motivation was never to be hungry anymore and live in dignity.

01:28:00.860 And the reason is it's very important.

01:28:04.740 If a manager, let's say a magnet manager, wanted to make more money, he had to replace himself and has to open up another factory.

01:28:13.040 So a manager could replace himself maybe 20, 30, or 50 times.

01:28:18.980 And then he gets a cut from each factory where he made a contribution, a percentage of the profits.

01:28:25.900 And this way, some of them, their yearly income maybe was $5 million or $10 million.

01:28:31.940 So the more they made, the more the shareholders made, the more the workers were made.

01:28:37.220 So we, when I said it's so important that we have smaller companies, that young kids got to see, I want to be able to do like Joe Brown.

01:28:51.720 I want to make $50 million or $100 million or like the football player, like the hockey player.

01:28:57.860 We must give them the motivation, right?

01:29:00.080 But let it be, right?

01:29:01.740 Some people are quite happy with an XXX.

01:29:05.640 Let it be.

01:29:06.280 Let everybody.

01:29:07.280 I love the Beatles, their song.

01:29:09.020 Let it be.

01:29:09.500 Let it be.

01:29:09.960 Let everybody be.

01:29:11.220 Let everybody be.

01:29:12.860 Let everybody find their own way to happiness.

01:29:16.040 Thank you.

01:29:17.360 My pleasure, man.

01:29:18.640 To everybody watching and listening, thank you very much for your time and attention.

01:29:22.420 The film crew up here in northern Ontario and down where Frank is,

01:29:26.620 thank you for the flawless technical, the provision of flawless technical expertise on this front.

01:29:33.040 To the Daily Wire Plus for making these conversations possible.

01:29:35.860 I'm going to continue talking to Mr. Frank Stronach for another half an hour on the Daily Wire Plus platform.

01:29:41.660 A bastion of free speech in an increasingly sensorial world.

01:29:45.480 And so if those of you who are watching and listening are inclined to devote your attention to that platform,

01:29:51.340 that would be much appreciated and may be increasingly necessary as the months unfold.

01:29:55.540 I'm looking forward to coming and looking at your factory, Mr. Stronach.

01:29:59.880 I think that would be very much fun.

01:30:01.320 I love looking at industrial enterprises because, well, it's lovely to see that much concerted and harmonious effort

01:30:08.980 working out to produce things that people actually need.

01:30:12.740 I really wish you luck with your new vehicle.

01:30:15.280 I hope that you've hit the market dead on and that people find this vehicle, you know, inexpensive, reliable and useful like many of your other products have been.

01:30:25.780 And so that would be a lovely thing to see.

01:30:27.300 It would be great to see that happening in Canada because we lack a little entrepreneurial zing at the moment.

01:30:32.900 And that's that's not as it should be.

01:30:35.280 And so I didn't get in the most important message.

01:30:39.280 What's my call?

01:30:40.620 My main aim is my main aim is I got about 10, 15 years ago, very heavily in the agriculture.

01:30:48.840 The deeper I got into it, the more I could see this chemical jungle, you know, with all the pesticide and all the fungicide.

01:30:57.340 So 95 percent of the food eaten comes from industrial farms.

01:31:02.160 On industrial farms, you see no more eagles fly.

01:31:04.860 Why?

01:31:05.540 There's no more pheasants.

01:31:06.760 There's no more rabbits.

01:31:07.840 We spray everything with fungicide and pesticides.

01:31:11.300 It gets in the air.

01:31:12.200 We breathe it.

01:31:12.840 It gets in water.

01:31:13.600 We drink it.

01:31:14.540 It gets in the soil.

01:31:15.520 We eat the food.

01:31:16.280 And all the kids practice allergies and stage two diabetics is on the rise.

01:31:23.100 So my main aim is my main goal is I don't every I don't want to see any Canadian kid to go to school hungry.

01:31:31.420 That means breakfast got to be served.

01:31:33.440 I don't want to see any Canadian kid to leave the school hungry.

01:31:37.760 That means lunch is got to be served.

01:31:40.040 And by law, it would state it has to be organic.

01:31:42.840 I got every reasonable everything in, but there's lots more to where the public should know.

01:31:49.480 Thank you.

01:31:50.060 I enjoyed being with you.

01:31:51.820 My pleasure, man.

01:31:52.660 And we'll we'll meet in a couple of minutes on the Daily Wire side and then again in the future.

01:31:57.160 And thanks again, everybody, for for watching and listening today.

01:32:00.160 For Angeles, please.

01:32:02.060 Thank you.

01:32:07.280 Bye-bye.

01:32:07.740 Bye-bye.

01:32:09.300 Bye-bye.

01:32:14.040 Bye-bye.

01:32:17.740 Bye-bye.

01:32:20.460 Bye-bye.

01:32:26.740 Bye-bye.

01:32:27.340 Bye-bye.

01:32:28.500 Bye-bye.

01:32:29.240 Bye-bye.

01:32:29.520 Bye-bye.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - November 13, 2023

396. Magna CEO on Turning Five Thousand Dollars Into One Billion ｜ Frank Stronach

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