The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 402. Who Is Ron DeSantis？

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00:00:57.420 I had the privilege of talking today to Governor Ron DeSantis, who's running for president on the Republican slate.

00:01:15.840 I tried to tilt the discussion more towards the personal.

00:01:20.980 My impression with Governor DeSantis is that he's established himself already as a credible policy advocate and a credible administrator, and that's no small deal.

00:01:33.920 And also as someone who's willing and able to take the flack associated with making difficult political decisions.

00:01:39.800 But I had the sense that I didn't really know him personally, and I believe that that's a sense that's shared by many people.

00:01:46.860 And so a lot of what we did with the conversation today was to get to know Governor DeSantis at a personal level.

00:01:53.780 And so I hope that all of you who are watching and listening find that useful and interesting, as I did.

00:01:59.640 So, Governor DeSantis, we met, I think it was probably more than a year ago, at the governor's mansion.

00:02:07.300 Now, we had bumped into each other a couple of times at some different speaking events, but never really had a chance to sit down and talk.

00:02:14.840 And, you know, we got to know each other a little bit over breakfast, you know, and I was struck by how welcoming the event was and how conversational our discussion became quite rapidly.

00:02:28.620 And, you know, I thought I might walk down that road a little bit farther today.

00:02:33.720 You've established a good reputation or perhaps a stellar reputation already on the policy side and with regards to general administrative competence.

00:02:43.080 But it's my sense, at least to some degree, that people don't know you as well as they might.

00:02:48.520 And so I thought we might, and that goes for me as well, and so I thought we might try to redress that today.

00:02:55.060 So that's what I'm going to aim at.

00:02:56.880 And we'll take forays off into the philosophical and political direction from that, but that's where we'll focus.

00:03:03.340 So the first thing I'd like to know and to share with everyone who's watching and listening is where did you grow up?

00:03:10.000 What was your upbringing like?

00:03:12.100 So I grew up most of my youth in a town called Dunedin, Florida, which is on the west coast of Florida in the Tampa-St. Petersburg area.

00:03:20.940 I was actually born in Jacksonville.

00:03:23.300 My mother was a nurse.

00:03:25.200 My father worked for Nielsen TV Ratings, which at that time you actually had to install the Nielsen devices on the boxes of the Nielsen families.

00:03:33.800 So that was his job.

00:03:35.140 It took us from Jacksonville to Orlando.

00:03:37.680 And then by the time I was in first grade, I ended up in Dunedin, Florida.

00:03:42.740 So my folks were just working-class folks.

00:03:46.040 My dad is from western Pennsylvania.

00:03:48.940 His father worked in the steel mills in Aliquippa.

00:03:52.080 And then my mom was from northeastern Ohio, Youngstown, which is also a very blue-collar area.

00:03:58.060 So that was kind of how I was growing up.

00:04:00.640 I was somebody that was very involved in baseball all the way through college.

00:04:05.420 But certainly as a youth, it was something that I did pretty religiously.

00:04:09.720 I went to church every Sunday.

00:04:12.260 And then as I started to get older, I started working part-time jobs to be able to make ends meet.

00:04:18.400 So it was a good upbringing.

00:04:21.260 No one would have predicted, probably, when I showed up at first grade in Dunedin, Florida,

00:04:25.480 that I would have gotten elected governor of the state in 30 years.

00:04:29.080 But it just shows you, I think, this country still has a lot to offer, even though we've got a lot of problems.

00:04:35.140 I was somebody that was able to work hard and really get ahead from that place in west-central Florida.

00:04:42.000 How big is the town you grew up in?

00:04:44.860 Dunedin?

00:04:45.420 How do you pronounce that?

00:04:47.260 Dunedin.

00:04:48.040 You know, at the time, I would say it was probably about 30-some thousand.

00:04:52.340 It's grown since then.

00:04:53.700 When I was a kid, it was a lot of strip malls.

00:04:56.500 Now they've got a nice downtown area, Dunedin, a lot of restaurants.

00:05:00.600 There's kind of a lot of life for it.

00:05:02.300 So it's a very cute little place.

00:05:04.800 Of course, they do have coast on the Gulf of Mexico as well.

00:05:08.120 And one of the things that we have is the connection to Canada because Dunedin is the spring training home of the Toronto Blue Jays.

00:05:15.660 So growing up as a kid, once it got to spring training in February, in Dunedin, you would see a lot of Ontario license plates around because the baseball fans would come down, Canadians would come down, and the Blue Jays facilities were all owned by the city of Dunedin.

00:05:32.780 So as a kid growing up playing baseball, we would use all the Blue Jays' stuff since it was owned by the city.

00:05:39.420 My high school team, our home field, was the spring training stadium that the Toronto Blue Jays played in when they were doing spring training in Dunedin.

00:05:48.080 And so that was kind of a unique thing to have.

00:05:50.480 But the connection between Dunedin and the Toronto Blue Jays was something that was a really big deal for the city and really big deal for a lot of us growing up at the time.

00:05:59.620 Yeah, well, Canadians are pretty fond of Florida, all things considered.

00:06:05.300 It's a great alternative to freezing to death in the dark, fundamentally.

00:06:09.340 And so now you said something interesting when you were talking about yourself in first grade.

00:06:14.560 You said that no one would have predicted, for example, that you might grow up to become governor.

00:06:20.480 You came from a working class background.

00:06:22.420 It's a relatively small town.

00:06:25.600 But that's a striking thing to say, too.

00:06:28.000 What were you like when you were a little kid, do you think?

00:06:30.780 And when did whatever promise you did manifest start to show itself?

00:06:36.240 Well, what drove me was the athletics.

00:06:40.220 I mean, primarily baseball, but I started to like all sports as I got older.

00:06:46.040 And that was the thing that we did.

00:06:47.780 So by the time I was 12, my Little League team, Dunedin National, made it to the Little League World Series in Williamsport, Pennsylvania.

00:06:56.080 One of four American teams in the entire country to make it there.

00:06:59.980 They have a stadium and everything.

00:07:01.600 It's kind of the big time for Little League baseball.

00:07:04.660 And that put us on the map there.

00:07:06.920 We had a great high school program.

00:07:08.480 When it came time for me to get recruited for college, I was a good student.

00:07:13.580 And so I was getting recruited by places including Harvard, Yale, and Princeton.

00:07:18.580 So baseball really took me.

00:07:21.200 And I had never been to New England in my life.

00:07:23.760 So baseball is really what brought me to New England when I ended up going to Yale.

00:07:28.140 And I would have done baseball for as long as I could have.

00:07:32.460 And actually, all through college, and I was the baseball captain my senior year at Yale, I would have played as long as I could.

00:07:40.840 But being a big league player is tough.

00:07:43.240 My, I think, goal at that point was to stay in baseball, maybe more on the business side in the front office.

00:07:49.420 But then when 9-11 happened, that's when I ended up commissioning in the Navy.

00:07:53.380 And I kind of took a different course at that time.

00:07:55.400 But growing up as a kid, it was really about playing sports and doing that.

00:08:00.900 And I had a lot of kids growing up with me who were really involved in it.

00:08:04.180 We had a lot of good programs, particularly on the baseball side.

00:08:06.740 So it was fun.

00:08:07.900 And I didn't, I kind of just took it for granted.

00:08:10.440 But now that I've gotten older and I've been around the block a little bit, you know, not every community necessarily offers those opportunities to the kids.

00:08:18.820 And so we were really fortunate that we had a lot of opportunities to play.

00:08:22.960 So what position did you play on your baseball team?

00:08:27.100 So I, by the time I was in high school and college, I was an outfielder.

00:08:30.900 In Little League, I was one of the three starting pitchers on our World Series team.

00:08:35.800 And then I would play, I'd play the infield when I wasn't, when I wasn't pitching.

00:08:40.480 But my, the one thing I could do is I could hit a fastball.

00:08:44.740 So you could throw a fastball 95 miles an hour.

00:08:48.200 I could hit the fastball.

00:08:49.820 As they started to be able to throw like 86, 87 mile an hour sliders and changeups, that makes it a little bit more difficult.

00:08:56.760 But I was a dead red hitter.

00:08:58.640 If you threw me the heat, I could hit it.

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00:10:39.620 So you look back on your life when you were young, especially on the athletic side, obviously with a fair bit of appreciation.

00:10:48.160 You said you took it for granted then.

00:10:50.020 And so I have two questions about that.

00:10:52.120 Like, what do you think it was about you or was there something in particular about you that made you an effective team player?

00:10:59.020 Because people who are athletically successful have to be skilled in the mechanics of the sport, obviously.

00:11:05.580 But to really reach a profound level of success, you have to be a good team player as well.

00:11:12.640 You have to be someone who helps the other players on your team develop and so forth.

00:11:16.480 And so what and then I'm also curious on the developmental side.

00:11:22.620 So I'm wondering what you brought to the team and also what being engaged in those team enterprises for so long actually did for you.

00:11:32.720 Well, baseball is an interesting sport because it's both the team is paramount.

00:11:39.360 I mean, you can't it's not an individual sport at all.

00:11:41.880 But at the same time, when you're up at the plate, you know, that's just you.

00:11:46.600 No one can swing the bat for you.

00:11:48.700 You either hit the ball or you don't.

00:11:51.160 And so it's an individual enterprise in terms of every time you get to the plate four times a game or however much you do, you've got to make it happen.

00:12:00.260 But just because you make it happen, there's a larger thing.

00:12:03.120 I mean, you could be a great hitter.

00:12:04.720 You need good pitching.

00:12:05.700 You need defense.

00:12:06.440 You need all those things.

00:12:07.420 So it's an interesting combination of individual achievement, but really needing to have the supporting cast and the teammates to be able to do it.

00:12:16.780 So I did learn that at a pretty early age.

00:12:19.420 And I do think kind of like my job as an executive now, I understand that I can have the vision.

00:12:25.500 I can make these great decisions.

00:12:27.260 But ultimately, you need a supporting cast around you who's going to implement all this stuff.

00:12:32.900 You can't just do it by yourself.

00:12:34.820 And so we have people when we're fighting some of the COVID insanity, I have a Surgeon General, Joseph Latipo, who carries this out.

00:12:43.740 And he's a leader and all that stuff.

00:12:45.660 When we respond to things like hurricanes, yeah, I can say we're going to rebuild the bridge in three days.

00:12:50.960 But I've got to have the agencies that are going to be nimble and going to be able to do it.

00:12:54.560 So I definitely think I learned that.

00:12:56.100 And I think what I brought was just I was a hard worker.

00:13:00.680 I was somebody that really wanted to be out there a lot.

00:13:03.980 I enjoyed it.

00:13:05.100 I enjoyed the camaraderie.

00:13:06.500 I enjoyed the competition.

00:13:08.260 And I remember thinking when we went to the World Series when I was 12, we pretty much did baseball every single day in the summer all the way through the World Series.

00:13:19.300 And sometimes it was because, you know, we practiced a lot as a team.

00:13:22.340 But even if we didn't have practice, a lot of us would just be out there and we would be playing on our own.

00:13:27.880 And I was always one of those guys there.

00:13:29.560 I would be one of the first to practice.

00:13:31.420 I'd be one of the last to leave.

00:13:32.740 I just really enjoyed it.

00:13:34.220 And I really enjoyed putting the work in.

00:13:36.220 And I believe that when you put the work in, in a sport like baseball, that you do see the dividends.

00:13:42.060 And that's something I've carried with me throughout my life.

00:13:45.320 When you work hard, when you're prepared, when you know your stuff, you're going to be able to do better than if you're just out there expecting things to happen for you.

00:13:54.080 Yeah, well, there's two things I've noticed about political leaders or cultural leaders, for that matter, who are genuine.

00:14:02.760 So, you know, politics, media, entertainment, surgery, actually, maybe medicine as well in general, tends to attract a disproportionate number of people who tilt towards narcissism.

00:14:19.120 And people are born with their trait personality somewhat intact.

00:14:26.340 And every different combination of personality traits provides people with certain advantages and certain disadvantages or temptations.

00:14:34.340 And if you're going to be on the political landscape, you have to be extroverted, generally speaking.

00:14:40.700 And one of the things that extroversion, especially in combination with less agreeableness, tilts people towards is a kind of narcissism.

00:14:48.840 And so there's a lot of people in the political domain, media, entertainment, as I said, who are in the public eye, who tilt towards narcissism.

00:14:57.240 But the great leaders that I've seen are people who are very good at listening, who are very good at building teams, and who might balance their ambition with conscientiousness.

00:15:09.300 Now, it seems to me very clear that you're a conscientious person because you stress hard work continually.

00:15:14.800 And you also say that you enjoy it.

00:15:16.620 And those are hallmarks of someone who's conscientious.

00:15:19.460 And that's a very good trait personality predictor of long-term success.

00:15:22.860 It's the best predictor after general intelligence.

00:15:25.840 But the team building thing really interests me because that's something that's crucial.

00:15:31.860 The ability to build a team and to provide opportunity to people and to give them responsibility, instead of keeping everything for yourself, is definitely one of the things that distinguishes narcissistic people from genuine leaders.

00:15:45.940 And so I've seen political leaders who are confident enough to surround themselves with people who are even more competent than them, right?

00:15:58.540 Which is a risk.

00:16:00.460 Because if you surround yourself with people whose lights shine brighter than yours, at least under some circumstances, then that brings with it the risk that you're going to seem rather dim in comparison.

00:16:12.800 And so I'm curious about the mechanics of how you go about building a team, how you've done that in Florida, and what you think you might bring to bear if you were in Washington.

00:16:25.360 I read a fair bit about Donald Trump's early year, first year in office, and it was definitely the case that it was hard for him to build a functional team.

00:16:36.000 Now, I don't think he really expected to become president, you know, so a lot of that was thrown at him or dumped on him, although he obviously put his hat in the ring.

00:16:45.680 But I'm very curious about how you go about building a team, because obviously building a team on the federal level is an unbelievably difficult job.

00:16:55.940 And if it's not done right, then, well, all hell's going to break loose.

00:17:00.000 Yeah, I mean, well, first of all, my view is what Ronald Reagan said.

00:17:05.020 There's no limit to what we can accomplish if you don't care who gets the credit.

00:17:08.220 So I'm not out to get credit.

00:17:10.640 I think when you deliver results, I hope that the other people get credit.

00:17:15.720 I don't need the credit.

00:17:17.180 And in fact, when things don't go as well, one of the things a leader has to do is say, okay, I'm responsible for that.

00:17:24.820 So there are times, and I think you can't be a really good leader if you try to micromanage anything.

00:17:31.040 I mean, you've got to set the vision, set expectations, and you've got to give people the opportunity to do it without you picking at them.

00:17:38.180 And that's the only way I think you can really do well.

00:17:40.640 The flip side to that, though, is that sometimes when you delegate like that, the job doesn't get done.

00:17:46.080 And people may do things that are not in line with the vision.

00:17:49.800 And so what you just have to be able to do is you just have to take the necessary action to correct that.

00:17:54.460 Sometimes you've got to replace personnel, sometimes just internal course correction.

00:17:58.560 But I think it's important that you praise the people that are working for you in public and you censor in private.

00:18:05.420 I don't believe in throwing people under the bus.

00:18:09.160 I think they've got to know that you're going to have their back.

00:18:12.120 And that's part of what we're—I think there's certain things leadership generally and particularly in government as an executive.

00:18:18.820 And then I think there are certain things that, given the moment that we're in, coming at it from a conservative perspective, what does that mean in terms of building a team?

00:18:27.900 Because I do think it's different how I would build a team in Washington versus how Biden or Obama or the left.

00:18:35.040 Because when you're going into a place like D.C., the hostility is there for anyone that wants to be a change agent.

00:18:42.120 They don't want to change the order of things there.

00:18:45.460 They've accumulated a lot of power.

00:18:47.460 They're really invested in the status quo.

00:18:49.720 So if you take an agency like the Department of Justice and you want an attorney general,

00:18:55.360 any attorney general on the conservative side that's going to go in there and actually clean house, 1.00

00:19:01.720 Washington is not going to like you.

00:19:03.660 You are going to get hit by the media.

00:19:06.240 You're going to get smeared by the Washington Post and the New York Times.

00:19:10.000 And so you just have to understand that.

00:19:12.420 And what about your internal makeup?

00:19:15.500 What is your internal makeup?

00:19:17.040 Are you somebody that realizes that's positive feedback, that you must be over the target?

00:19:21.400 Or are you somebody that wants to be liked by official Washington?

00:19:25.600 And it's natural for human beings to want to be liked by those that surround him.

00:19:30.260 But if Washington likes you as a Republican attorney general, that means you're not representing a threat to the current order of things.

00:19:39.420 So part of what I look for is to find people that understand there's going to be blowback when they're doing the right thing

00:19:46.540 and are going to be happy to kind of wear that as a badge of honor.

00:19:50.460 I mean, in COVID, our Surgeon General, Dr. Joseph Latipo, he came from UCLA, had a great tenure, great, great life.

00:19:59.700 But he was a COVID critic of the narrative, and he got marginalized there.

00:20:05.020 I brought him on to Florida.

00:20:06.520 I said, listen, you do exactly what you're doing, but just understand they're going to come at you.

00:20:11.220 Are you going to be able to handle it?

00:20:12.440 He's like, yep, I get it.

00:20:13.420 And to his credit, he wears it as a badge of honor.

00:20:17.080 But if you're willing, if you're concerned about how the media is going to treat you in some of these key positions,

00:20:22.900 if that's something that motivates you, you're going to trim your sails and you're not going to get the job done.

00:20:27.560 So I think just understanding how the media plays a role in distorting how our government operates,

00:20:33.820 when you're building the team, you really got to have that intestinal fortitude in those key positions.

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00:21:48.940 So how are you able to resist the temptation to be liked?

00:21:55.380 And how do you tolerate the stress that comes with the attacks that are inevitably going to amount,

00:22:02.720 some of them reasonable and some of them not so reasonable?

00:22:06.400 I mean, I've thought about a political career from time to time, but I've always,

00:22:10.940 well, I haven't chosen to go down that route for a variety of reasons.

00:22:14.760 It doesn't necessarily seem to me where I would be most effective.

00:22:18.660 But I also have a certain doubt about my willingness or ability to handle the constant stream of attacks

00:22:29.360 that characterize a political career.

00:22:32.940 And so I'm curious about how those sorts of attacks do affect you.

00:22:38.120 I mean, one of the cardinal personality traits is neuroticism,

00:22:42.140 and that's the proclivity to experience negative emotion.

00:22:45.120 And it's a stress tolerance dimension.

00:22:47.580 And I'm not exactly sure that I have the capacity to tolerate stress in the manner that might be delivered on the political front.

00:22:54.880 Now, you've certainly taken your fair share of heat.

00:22:58.200 And you said that you're trying to surround yourself with people who are capable of tolerating that

00:23:02.960 and who are also not necessarily looking to be liked.

00:23:06.180 So how do you manage that on the personal side of things?

00:23:09.000 And how do you, what would you say, buttress yourself and reinforce yourself,

00:23:15.040 you know, say, with regard to your family relationships and your friendships,

00:23:18.800 maybe your business relationships for that matter,

00:23:21.580 so that you have people around you that help you withstand the storm?

00:23:26.380 Well, part of it, I think, is that I just personally don't really care to read about me or watch anyone on TV,

00:23:34.540 even when it's good.

00:23:35.520 But it's just not something that I'm interested in.

00:23:38.120 I'm much more interested in other things.

00:23:39.680 I don't need to be hearing about me.

00:23:41.020 I mean, people, you know, there are times when I'll get something nice written or whatever.

00:23:44.940 Oh, did you see this and this?

00:23:46.340 And I'm like, no.

00:23:47.340 I'm like, I'm just not, I'm not fishing for compliments either.

00:23:51.060 But I just know it goes with the territory.

00:23:53.800 It's just something that you're going to do,

00:23:55.940 especially when you take on certain sacred cows.

00:23:58.700 You can just guarantee and you just see it.

00:24:01.320 For example, this is a relatively small example, but I've been watching what's going on in D.C.

00:24:06.860 with the Fed and this whole idea of a central bank digital currency.

00:24:10.420 I think that that's very dangerous.

00:24:12.240 So I did, in Florida this past year, I said, okay, in Florida, we're not going to recognize that

00:24:17.660 because if the Fed does it unilaterally, I don't even know if they have the authority to do that.

00:24:21.160 And I started to say, well, it'll violate your privacy.

00:24:23.860 They want to get rid of cash, crypto, all this stuff.

00:24:26.360 And it was all true. 0.57

00:24:28.040 And then literally within days, Washington Post, New York Times, all the usual suspects,

00:24:32.960 they start having a spasm and they're going at me, oh, he's peddling conspiracy theories, all this stuff.

00:24:39.600 And so I viewed that as I must have hit a nerve.

00:24:42.820 They would not all be doing this in unison.

00:24:45.360 This is something that these guys want.

00:24:47.480 And so I'm standing in the way.

00:24:48.960 So they're coming after me.

00:24:50.140 So it's kind of like in the military, you take the most flack when you're over the target.

00:24:54.520 They don't tend to go after people on the right who are not a threat to them.

00:24:59.480 If you're just sitting there and taking up space, they kind of leave you alone.

00:25:03.460 It's only when you're making a difference and you're leading that they really care.

00:25:07.560 So I just know going in, if you are going to stand for the things that I think need to be done in this state

00:25:13.800 and throughout the country, you are going to face blowback.

00:25:16.660 You just have to understand that.

00:25:18.260 You got to have a thick skin.

00:25:19.520 And I know it just goes with the territory.

00:25:21.940 You know how some people are going to react no matter what.

00:25:25.360 And that's just the way it is.

00:25:26.880 So you don't let it get to you.

00:25:28.660 I don't appreciate necessarily if they go after like my wife or things like that.

00:25:34.240 But she's very tough too.

00:25:35.620 And she's just like, look, I get it.

00:25:37.220 I understand.

00:25:37.980 And she's very effective on the campaign trail. 0.99

00:25:40.040 So they try to nick her as much as they can.

00:25:43.340 But that's just where we are as a society.

00:25:45.740 The good news is, is I think most people get that.

00:25:49.520 I think most of the attacks fall flat because they understand this is just part of the process.

00:25:54.700 And Florida, we show a good example because as governor, I got attacked more than any governor in the country.

00:26:00.660 And yet I won the biggest victory that any Republican has ever won in the history of the state in a governor's race in 2022. 0.81

00:26:06.860 So what that tells me is there's a lot of garbage that gets circulated out there.

00:26:11.900 But the public knows a lot of what goes on in the media is deceitful one way or another.

00:26:18.180 And I do think when you're just out there standing for and speaking the truth, I do think it permeates through the fog of deceit that our society has become mired in.

00:26:27.680 All right.

00:26:28.560 Well, it is interesting reversal to view the most vicious attacks as indications that you're actually on the right track.

00:26:37.620 I mean, obviously, that isn't an unerring guide, but it's an interesting guide.

00:26:41.240 And it's also an entirely different psychological take on the issue, right?

00:26:45.560 Instead of being concerned about the fact that you're drawing negative attention and taking that personally,

00:26:51.440 you said that you're using it as an indication that you've actually struck to the core of something that matters.

00:26:56.660 And that that's actually a positive sign rather than something that's negative.

00:27:00.860 That's a useful thing to have in your back pocket.

00:27:03.520 So let me ask you a little bit.

00:27:05.560 Let's go back again to your early life.

00:27:09.380 And I'm very curious, always curious with regard to the people that I talk to, how their interests develop.

00:27:16.340 Now, you stressed a fair bit.

00:27:18.920 You stressed your athletic interests a fair bit.

00:27:21.360 And we talked already about the influence that had on the way that you conduct yourself and how you build teams.

00:27:27.980 But I'm curious, too.

00:27:29.340 When did your—first of all, like, would you say that your interests are primarily political and pragmatic?

00:27:36.580 Or are they more philosophical and metaphysical with regards to your conservatism?

00:27:41.360 Because conservatives can be very pragmatic and detail-oriented, but they can also take a more philosophical tack.

00:27:48.340 And I'm curious about which side of that you might place yourself.

00:27:52.780 And then also on where your intellectual and political interests, how did they first make themselves manifest when you were a young person?

00:28:00.440 Well, I think it's interesting because, clearly, when you're actually in a position of executive authority, you have to have a certain level of pragmatism because there's different things that come up.

00:28:11.940 And you've got to be able to improvise with new situations.

00:28:15.500 Now, you bring to that, I think, ideally a solid philosophical foundation that you're able to parse things through.

00:28:22.840 But for me, so when I got to college, for example, I didn't even know colleges were liberal at the time.

00:28:29.960 And especially, like, a place like Yale, I guess I thought, like, in Ivy League school, everyone was going to be wearing, like, a suit and tie and everything.

00:28:37.680 I thought it was actually going to be more conservative in terms of that.

00:28:41.700 While I got there was a rude awakening.

00:28:43.840 You're in the classroom, a lot of aggressive leftism.

00:28:46.440 So what I gravitated towards was a real good history, Western civilization, but I think with an emphasis on the founding of America.

00:28:56.600 Because I think that there was a lot of the Western tradition that fed into what the founding fathers did, both during the American Revolution and when they created and ratified the U.S. Constitution.

00:29:07.160 So I started studying all those key sources.

00:29:11.600 I became very well read in things like the Federalist Papers.

00:29:14.600 I read Madison's diary about the Constitutional Convention, pamphlets during the American Revolution.

00:29:22.000 So for me, in terms of developing a conservative philosophy, it really started in those, you know, really core philosophical enduring truths that mark the founding of the United States of America.

00:29:37.600 And I think that's something I developed throughout college.

00:29:40.340 I joke to people and say, because when I'm speaking in front of conservative audiences, the fact that I graduated from Yale and Harvard Law School is not necessarily a good thing on its face, given how liberal those universities are.

00:29:53.160 But what I tell people is I'm one of the few people that got through both Yale and Harvard and came out more conservative than when I went in.

00:30:00.160 That's not easy to do.

00:30:01.380 But I think part of it is because I was gravitating towards things that I think really, really mattered.

00:30:08.000 I was not doing ideological studies.

00:30:10.380 I wasn't doing some of the flim-flam that you see in modern academia.

00:30:14.320 I was doing things that represented—I was learning about ideas that have really stood the test of time.

00:30:20.360 What did you study specifically at Yale?

00:30:23.020 What was your undergraduate degree?

00:30:25.520 History.

00:30:26.400 History.

00:30:27.260 And then at Harvard, you studied law.

00:30:29.080 Okay, so now you came from a working-class background.

00:30:32.600 And, you know, I grew up in a small town in northern Alberta and in a working-class background.

00:30:39.200 And when I was young, 14, 15, I got attracted to more left ideas, I would say, especially because of people I'd met, I suppose, who were deeply involved in the labor movement.

00:30:53.720 And at that time in Canada, particularly in my home province, most of the people who were on the political left were actually involved in the labor movement and actually genuinely involved.

00:31:05.660 I mean, there was, you know, the fair share of narcissists on the left then as there is now.

00:31:10.660 But a lot of the people, especially in leadership positions, had gone through the working-class ranks and had been labor leaders.

00:31:17.880 And so the reason I'm asking you this is because you grew up in a working-class environment.

00:31:22.460 And it seems to me that you could have easily tilted towards the more socialist left as a consequence of being part of the working class, let's say, and being surrounded by that or being embedded in that environment.

00:31:37.380 But you said that when you went to Yale, you tilted even more strongly in a conservative direction.

00:31:44.440 What was it about conservatism in particular that attracted you and also enabled you to develop and defend your beliefs while you were in these Ivy League, fundamentally liberal-slash-leftist institutions?

00:32:00.580 Well, part of it was just a rebellion against the real militant leftism that I experienced on campus.

00:32:09.180 And I had never experienced that before.

00:32:10.980 I mean, for example, growing up, I didn't know who was a Republican or a Democrat.

00:32:15.800 It didn't really matter.

00:32:17.200 I mean, people believed in our country.

00:32:19.940 They were patriotic.

00:32:21.680 They were God-fearing.

00:32:22.880 And so you kind of had like a core set of values that were in common that were different from partisan allegiances.

00:32:31.320 So then I get to Yale, and one of the Yale's mottos is for God, for country, and for Yale.

00:32:37.880 Well, I get up there, and they were not very hospitable to God or any type of religious faith, even though it was founded in 1701 because Harvard was too liberal with its theology.

00:32:50.420 That's how it was founded.

00:32:51.340 They had totally walked away from any of that.

00:32:55.120 And then for country, they would mostly bash the United States.

00:32:59.240 You know, you'd hear people blaming America for this or that.

00:33:02.480 There was a view of communism and Marxism that was very favorable.

00:33:08.620 And I'm just thinking to myself, you know, there was a 100-million-person body count because of Marxism-Leninism in the 20th century, and yet that's something that they're just papering over.

00:33:18.600 So I just found the whole thing to be very unappetizing.

00:33:22.380 And then I was somebody coming in, I was patriotic, I was God-fearing, and I may not have necessarily had a firm political philosophy, but that definitely pushed me away from that.

00:33:34.460 I'm like, you know what, I don't know what I am, but I'm definitely not that for sure.

00:33:38.220 And then I think just when you're studying ideas that really matter, I mean, some of these ideas that mark the founding of the United States are really infectious ideas about liberty, about the proper role of government, written constitutions.

00:33:53.500 And those are things, okay, that's my foundation, that's what I think matters, and then how do you apply that more in terms of contemporary?

00:34:01.880 And I'm like, well, look, this is the philosophical tradition that we're supposed to want to conserve in terms of being conservatives, that the founding fathers on the big things got right.

00:34:13.320 We're supposed to want to preserve that and preserve freedom.

00:34:16.420 So by the time I graduated, there was no chance that I was ever going to end up on the political left.

00:34:22.060 But it's interesting, when I look back at Yale, I was playing baseball, I had a lot of friends playing sports.

00:34:30.140 I was also working a lot of part-time jobs.

00:34:33.140 Anything I could do just to help make ends meet, I was, by the time I graduated, I was considered the most employable kid at Yale,

00:34:39.820 because anytime someone needed anything, if I could make six or seven bucks here or there, I would do it.

00:34:45.300 And I could get people to come.

00:34:47.500 And it just, it turns out that by most of what is animated there, the people that were in kind of my socioeconomic sphere tended to be much more patriotic, tended to be,

00:34:59.340 and I don't know if I viewed it this way at the time, but tended to probably be more conservative,

00:35:03.520 whereas a lot of the anti-Americanism and the militant leftism tended to be driven by a lot of the trust fund kids,

00:35:10.440 kids that had grown up in a lot of inherited wealth.

00:35:13.240 And I don't know if this is their way to just rebel, but there was definitely a very wealthy tilt towards the people that were on the far left.

00:35:23.180 And maybe that was my first introduction to kind of left-wing elites that are advocating these things.

00:35:30.500 Now, they didn't always want to live by what they were advocating, but they did strongly advocate for those left-wing positions.

00:35:35.780 Yeah, well, one of the things that I noticed about the more activist types at, because I taught at Harvard for a while,

00:35:45.060 at the Ivy League institutions, was that there was a sense of wanting to have too much.

00:35:50.620 Like, it was just too much for me to see when I went to Boston that you had young people who were simultaneously

00:36:00.460 in a position to place themselves among the eventual elite of the country, which is what's really laying at your feet

00:36:09.620 once you're in an institution like Harvard or Yale, and who also wanted to accrue all the moral benefit

00:36:15.680 of being allied with the oppressed.

00:36:18.840 You know, I thought, geez, guys, you know, you're really asking for a bit too much here,

00:36:22.400 because on the one hand, you're already clearly part of what's going to be the ruling elite,

00:36:27.100 and that's especially true if you also come from a wealthy background,

00:36:30.880 and you want all the moral virtue that accrues to someone who's simultaneously oppressed

00:36:35.500 or an so-called ally of the oppressed.

00:36:38.660 And the hypocrisy in that I found extraordinarily grating, and I mean, that's continued to this day.

00:36:45.300 And so, what do you think that the founding principles of the United States have to offer

00:36:52.900 to working-class people as an alternative to the utopian vision put forward by the radical leftists?

00:37:01.480 I mean, hypothetically, communism and these terrible systems that emerged in the 20th century

00:37:06.440 were aimed at the working class, right?

00:37:09.840 Workers of the world unite.

00:37:11.540 You have nothing to lose but your chains.

00:37:14.060 Well, it turns out the chains you're going to be put in by the radical leftists

00:37:17.280 are a lot thicker than the ones you abandoned, but we could leave that aside for the moment.

00:37:22.120 Why do you think that you found the principles on which the U.S. was founded more attractive,

00:37:28.640 and particularly what makes them more attractive and useful to people

00:37:32.460 who are genuinely of a working-class derivation?

00:37:35.100 Well, look, there's a limited role for government to play,

00:37:41.020 and there's a limited role for these ruling elites. 0.81

00:37:44.720 And I think when you look at things like communism, you're right.

00:37:47.300 The chains are even thicker for the working class.

00:37:50.420 But man, the entrenched elite class, they do very, very well.

00:37:55.540 And they live very high on the hog.

00:37:57.920 And you saw that.

00:37:58.920 I think when we understand what role government has played in holding people back,

00:38:05.200 a more limited government provides more opportunity.

00:38:08.480 I mean, some of that is just what's the proper scope and power of the federal government.

00:38:13.240 For example, now you have a movement through the bureaucracy,

00:38:16.560 not even legislated by Congress, to force everyone to buy an electric vehicle.

00:38:22.040 Well, if you're somebody that is a truck driver or a plumber making a pretty good living,

00:38:28.220 do you really want that type of vehicle?

00:38:30.600 How much more is that going to cost you?

00:38:32.700 All these other things.

00:38:33.720 That seems to not be much of an issue for the people driving these policies.

00:38:38.260 They have their agenda, and they basically want people to be thankful

00:38:42.300 that they're able to participate with that agenda, even though it's making them worse off.

00:38:47.780 That's part of why you see the White House press secretary every day gaslight the public,

00:38:52.660 saying how good things are with the economy when people are falling further and further behind.

00:38:57.020 They want people to act like that they should be thankful for what's going on,

00:39:02.220 even though we know it's not.

00:39:03.220 So part of it is making sure power is exercised in accordance with the Constitution,

00:39:08.700 which it is not right now.

00:39:10.440 You have a bureaucracy that is untethered to the original understanding of the Constitution.

00:39:15.680 A lot of the most important things that affect people's lives are done not by members of Congress

00:39:20.580 who you can hire and fire during election season, but by unelected bureaucrats.

00:39:25.440 So I think that's a problem.

00:39:26.640 The second thing is just there's a limit to what central planning can do.

00:39:32.040 We saw the Great Society and the War on Poverty in the 1960s, where they said, look, if we just have these smart people

00:39:41.060 and these government bureaus, we put money into it, they're going to be able to eliminate poverty in this country,

00:39:47.920 and this will just be a great social triumph.

00:39:51.520 Well, what ended up happening was they ended up creating a culture of dependency.

00:39:56.300 They made it more difficult for people to rise out of those circumstances,

00:39:59.940 and they facilitated dysfunction that we're still living with this very, very day.

00:40:06.120 So I think it's just a skepticism of government being able to do all these things to change and mold society in the way they do,

00:40:15.640 and also a skepticism about government power being exercised in big ways by unelected bureaucrats.

00:40:22.980 I was talking to a European friend of mine yesterday, and she pointed out that now in Europe,

00:40:31.800 essentially 55% of what people earn goes to taxation.

00:40:36.200 And I thought, well, that's very interesting, because really what it means is that people have given up 55% of the opportunity

00:40:46.720 that presents itself to them in life to the, what would you say, to the machinations of the people who are taking their money,

00:40:57.120 and now it's more than half of what they make.

00:40:59.300 Now, on the one hand, you might say, well, that's a good deal, because look at all the things that the state does for you.

00:41:06.880 But on the other hand, you might say, well, every single thing the state hypothetically does for you

00:41:13.420 is power, responsibility, and opportunity that has been taken away from you,

00:41:21.200 that you can no longer exercise yourself locally.

00:41:24.580 So that takes a fair bit of the meaning out of your life, right?

00:41:27.520 I mean, if it's on you to do things properly, then that gives you something genuine and worthwhile to do.

00:41:33.360 And if that's handed down to you from the top down, then you're in an infantile and dependent condition.

00:41:39.320 You talked about a culture of dependency, and that actually hollows you out.

00:41:43.300 So as the state becomes more tyrannical, people become more slavish. 0.92

00:41:47.660 And that's very hard on them existentially, too, because it deprives them of meaning.

00:41:52.820 And so I'm very curious, though, you know, if you look at the situation historically, this is how it appears to me,

00:42:02.660 people who promote limited government in principle and who want to devolve responsibility back to local citizenry

00:42:12.260 in keeping with their abilities go to Washington.

00:42:15.180 But the bloody government keeps growing hand over fist regardless.

00:42:19.760 And it doesn't really, if you look at the historical data, it doesn't really seem to matter that much whether it's the Republicans or the Democrats in control.

00:42:27.480 The state just grows and grows and grows and grows at three to five percent a year.

00:42:32.700 And no one seems to be able to trim it back.

00:42:35.100 And so have you had any success in doing so at the local level in Florida?

00:42:40.940 And what have you learned, apart from the fact that you have to take flack if you're going to attempt it,

00:42:46.320 what have you learned about how the proclivity of gigantic organizations to keep growing can be managed?

00:42:54.680 Well, we've eliminated two agencies since I've been governor,

00:42:58.160 and our cost per state employee is the lowest in the country per capita.

00:43:04.220 And we have either the lowest or close to the lowest number of state employees per capita anywhere in the United States.

00:43:12.100 And it's interesting because when the people flee New York to come to Florida,

00:43:16.820 one of the first—and New York's budget, by the way,

00:43:19.080 we have millions of more people than New York State does now.

00:43:22.440 New York's budget is twice the size of Florida's budget.

00:43:25.880 And yet the people that move from New York to Florida will tell me how much better the services are in Florida.

00:43:31.680 Yeah, easier to get a driver's license, better roads, all these other things.

00:43:36.020 So it is just a fact that a lot of the government is just not necessary to actually perform the core functions.

00:43:45.260 So in Florida, we've actually—even though we've cut taxes, we've run surpluses,

00:43:49.160 we've paid down almost 25 percent of our state's debt.

00:43:52.600 Now, we're proud of that, but I understand the power is much more entrenched in Washington, D.C.

00:43:59.340 I think it is the case, and I think you're right, that it's grown regardless.

00:44:03.760 But if you think about it, we've probably had one administration since the Great Society

00:44:10.220 who actually wanted to reduce government, Ronald Reagan.

00:44:13.620 And, you know, he had some success in restraining domestic, but it was tough.

00:44:20.180 But I don't think we've really had very many administrations that have wanted to curb the size.

00:44:25.440 And part of it is because when you're at the helm of it, you know, you can wield some of that power,

00:44:30.400 and I think that that's attractive to people.

00:44:32.240 But I would be one that would say we have both too big a government in size

00:44:39.600 and maybe even more importantly, too much government in scope.

00:44:44.940 So even if you cut the government by 50 percent of the employees,

00:44:49.060 if the government would still be getting involved in things through the regulatory state

00:44:54.140 that are far beyond the current scope, that would still be a problem.

00:44:57.740 So I think you've got to tackle both.

00:44:59.500 What you need to do is when you get in there day one,

00:45:03.220 you have to have all the personnel ready to go for ratification, confirmation in the Senate.

00:45:08.040 That's hundreds and hundreds of people on day one need to be ready to go.

00:45:11.880 Two, all the executive actions you're going to take, executive orders reversing the previous,

00:45:18.260 that's got to be ready.

00:45:19.260 And then the legislative roadmap's got to be ready with the key members of Congress.

00:45:23.280 And day one, you just got to go.

00:45:24.880 Now, you have a lot of leverage that you can use under Article II of the Constitution vis-a-vis the bureaucracy.

00:45:31.040 There'll be a lot of things that we're going to do.

00:45:33.080 We've previewed some of it.

00:45:34.720 We may do a larger rollout here in the next few weeks.

00:45:37.860 But suffice it to say, there's a lot of authority and leverage that presidents have not used in the past

00:45:44.000 that we would use both to limit the scope and to downsize the government.

00:45:49.780 So let me ask you some specific questions, and then I'll close with some general questions.

00:45:56.420 You said that you reduced two departments, eliminated two departments in Florida.

00:46:00.740 And I was curious earlier when we were talking about managerial strategies,

00:46:04.440 how you go about trimming and firing.

00:46:06.560 I mean, these people whose livelihood you're planning to eradicate

00:46:11.160 have devoted their lives to their service to their country.

00:46:15.160 That's one way of thinking about it.

00:46:16.620 And it's a very difficult thing to handle decreasing the size of an organization.

00:46:23.160 So how do you justify that morally, let's say?

00:46:27.400 And how do you go about it practically so that it's actually implementable and works?

00:46:32.540 I mean, obviously, you haven't got enough kickback in Florida

00:46:36.280 to have had the government shut down by widespread strikes, for example,

00:46:40.600 or rebellions at the administrative level.

00:46:42.760 So how have you managed that, and what makes you think it could scale?

00:46:47.460 Well, I think Florida, we've just been fortunate because it's actually been hard to keep people

00:46:53.760 to want to be working in the government because we have a good economy, 2.8% unemployment.

00:47:00.140 People have opportunities.

00:47:01.980 A lot of times in some of these agencies, people are making a sacrifice to be able to serve.

00:47:06.900 Some of them could be, particularly at the higher levels,

00:47:09.420 could probably make more money in the private sector.

00:47:11.680 So we were very confident that there would be opportunities in the state of Florida.

00:47:16.040 That really, I don't think, was a significant of a driving factor.

00:47:20.640 And then you do have sometimes when you—so, for example,

00:47:24.180 I've said federally, get rid of the Department of Energy.

00:47:27.300 It's not been effective, all that.

00:47:28.980 Now, there are functions in that department that were being done

00:47:32.520 before the department was established in the late 70s and would still need to be done.

00:47:36.480 So some of those, like, for example, with nuclear, used to be under defense.

00:47:40.180 And so sometimes when you're reducing a bureaucracy or eliminating a bureaucracy,

00:47:44.820 there may be some functions.

00:47:46.640 For example, the Commerce Department, we've said, let's get rid of that.

00:47:50.300 But you have to do the census, and there are certain things you have to do.

00:47:53.600 So some of that will be to reassign.

00:47:56.800 Others will just be to eliminate.

00:47:58.640 But yes, we—in fact, if you think about some of the things that we've had to do in Florida,

00:48:03.380 I've had—because our prisons, it was hard to get people to serve as prison guards.

00:48:08.480 It's not a great job.

00:48:09.820 The pay was too low.

00:48:11.100 They could make more working at Walmart or some of these other places.

00:48:15.160 So we actually did a big concerted effort to be able to give bonuses and higher pay

00:48:19.820 for corrections officers.

00:48:21.840 And we've been able to do that pretty well, but we still have more ways to go

00:48:26.400 just because there's a lot of opportunities in the economy right now in the state of Florida

00:48:31.280 because our state's growing.

00:48:34.120 Let's talk about the Department of Education.

00:48:36.600 Now, you've—I'm obviously extremely interested in educational reform.

00:48:42.500 I mean, I've been shocked, for example.

00:48:44.420 I was shocked as a professor at the University of Toronto to find out

00:48:47.800 that my second-year students who'd gone through 14 years of public education

00:48:54.160 basically were entirely ignorant about everything that happened in the Soviet Union

00:48:59.040 and in Maoist China throughout the entire course of the 20th century.

00:49:02.480 And I know that you've put in place mandates, for example,

00:49:09.240 for that sort of education to be provided,

00:49:11.260 but you've also been very interested in educational reform.

00:49:14.300 So I'm curious about what's motivating that and what consequences that might have

00:49:21.460 for your actions on the federal level.

00:49:24.440 Well, what we've done in Florida—I mean, we've had to really fight Biden

00:49:28.180 because they want to use federal power to coerce us to do things we don't want to do.

00:49:33.760 For example, we have women's sports in Florida. 1.00

00:49:37.740 Biological men are not permitted to compete in that. 1.00

00:49:40.780 It's not fair to the women athletes. 1.00

00:49:42.880 And they were—Biden threatened to withhold school lunch money for poor kids

00:49:47.540 just because we are protecting women's sports. 1.00

00:49:50.380 So they go after whatever they can.

00:49:52.480 I'm going to get the federal government off the back of the states.

00:49:55.880 We'd like to just eliminate that department entirely.

00:49:59.140 But at a minimum, if Congress won't do that, I will certainly be able to just peel back all the—

00:50:05.940 really, it's not the proper role of the federal government to be getting involved in this stuff.

00:50:09.460 Now, what we've done in Florida is say, okay, the state of Florida, clearly, education is a very important state interest.

00:50:16.840 We fund a lot of the education.

00:50:19.060 We clearly have the authority to provide protections for the rights of parents.

00:50:23.420 So, for example, you have a right to know what curriculum is being used in your kids' schools.

00:50:28.040 Unfortunately, there are pornographic materials that are getting put into education now.

00:50:33.540 Parents in Florida can blow the whistle, and that can be removed.

00:50:36.580 We've also done universal school choice so that parents can choose, make the best choice for their kid, regardless of their income.

00:50:44.540 That's private.

00:50:45.260 That's charter.

00:50:45.920 That's public.

00:50:46.960 You name it, we do it.

00:50:48.420 Our test scores have gone up as a result of that because I think students are in good spots.

00:50:53.460 We've also said no to things like critical race theory and gender ideology.

00:50:57.780 That is not the appropriate thing to be doing in particularly elementary school, and we focus on the core academic subjects.

00:51:05.380 We've also made a big push to have more American civics in the classroom, and part of that is the graduating students now take a test that's modeled after the U.S. citizenship test that tests their civic knowledge.

00:51:18.460 But what we understood is like, yeah, I can say they have to know the Federalist Papers.

00:51:23.820 They have to know the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights, all this stuff.

00:51:26.360 And that's great, but you also need teachers that really believe in this and are passionate about it.

00:51:31.800 So we created a program for teachers.

00:51:34.380 They get a $3,000 bonus if they go through.

00:51:36.720 It's a 50-hour course.

00:51:37.980 And we got professors from Hillsdale College.

00:51:41.100 We got people from the Heritage Foundation to come to talk about the intellectual roots of America, what went into the American Revolution, the Constitution.

00:51:49.000 So they're learning about the Enlightenment, Judeo-Christian tradition, British common law.

00:51:54.180 I mean, everything you can think of, they're learning about, and it's been really, really good to be able to do that.

00:52:00.480 I think we have a responsibility to graduate students that have a foundation in what it means to be a citizen of a republic.

00:52:08.580 If you're just graduating blank slates, well, that's how you lose freedom.

00:52:14.640 When our founders created the Constitution, Benjamin Franklin walked out of the convention in Philadelphia.

00:52:19.620 When it was over, he was asked, did you give us a republic or a monarchy?

00:52:23.220 And his response was, a republic if you can keep it.

00:52:26.500 Because they understood these things don't run on autopilot.

00:52:29.660 But the citizenry has to be engaged in protecting and preserving freedom.

00:52:33.600 So that's kind of K-12.

00:52:34.800 Now, on higher education, we've also leaned in.

00:52:37.840 And our view is that publicly funded universities should meet the mission that Florida wants for its taxpayers.

00:52:46.320 And for us, we want rigorous academic programs.

00:52:49.880 We want to prepare students to be good citizens.

00:52:53.120 We want the pursuit of truth.

00:52:54.520 We don't want the university to be hijacked to focus on ideological indoctrination.

00:53:00.380 So we've done things at, like, New College in Sarasota, where I appointed seven conservatives to a small liberal arts college.

00:53:07.280 They've now taken that more of a direction, like Hillsdale College in Michigan.

00:53:11.500 And the applications are booming because there's a hunger to have academics focused more on the meat and potatoes of what academics used to be rather than a political agenda.

00:53:24.780 And then we're doing the same thing like the University of Florida.

00:53:27.260 We now have a Hamilton Center for Public Policy, where you're bringing in professors that don't align with leftist orthodoxy, who will be able to present more of, I think, a balanced take on things, give students access to views that are not necessarily the politically correct, approved views that marks academia.

00:53:49.500 So that's been really exciting, too.

00:53:51.580 But my view is, is these are all of our institutions.

00:53:55.080 They're not the hobby horse of the political left.

00:53:57.480 And they need to reflect what the state's mission and interests are with respect to academics.

00:54:03.860 So I'm going to ask you a couple of questions to close, if you would.

00:54:08.260 The first is, what challenges, what have you done right and wrong on the campaign trail?

00:54:15.720 What challenges do you have ahead of you on the campaign trail?

00:54:18.920 What are you hoping for with regards to your campaign over the next year?

00:54:24.000 And then more specifically, what are you hoping to accomplish with your forthcoming debate with Gavin Newsom, the governor of California?

00:54:32.540 Well, I think it's actually they're kind of related.

00:54:35.120 I mean, I think that, you know, in a presidential campaign, a lot of this is trying to generate information flow to the voters.

00:54:42.020 And in a nationwide thing, things like the corporate media, unfortunately, matter more than maybe in a statewide election.

00:54:49.920 Even a state as big as Florida, I really could dominate the discourse as governor.

00:54:54.800 I could go to the markets, these local markets, and do that.

00:54:58.260 When you're talking about a presidential campaign, I mean, it's just day after day, the media churn, narratives.

00:55:04.020 And so we knew from the day I won re-election in 22, I was a marked man.

00:55:09.900 We knew they were coming after me.

00:55:11.360 We knew they did not want me to be the nominee.

00:55:12.980 That wasn't necessarily surprising.

00:55:15.120 But I do think that doing what you can to get into that flow in ways that are going to be present for voters is really, really important.

00:55:25.240 And I think we've done a better job of that more recently in the last few months than we did in the first month or two of the campaign.

00:55:32.860 And that's kind of the thing with the Newsom.

00:55:34.840 He said he wanted to debate me.

00:55:36.680 Hannity asked me to do it.

00:55:38.120 Some people said, well, Newsom, we know he wants to run, but he's not actually running.

00:55:42.220 So why even give him that platform?

00:55:44.180 And my view is this is going to give me 90 minutes on national television to be able to articulate why conservative policies have worked in Florida and why they can work nationally in contrast to the failure of California and how Biden is failing and how more of that would lead to an acceleration of the country's decline.

00:56:06.180 So that's going to give me a good opportunity to be able to reach these voters in ways that will be meaningful.

00:56:11.920 So that's just that's different in a presidential than would be different in these other campaigns.

00:56:17.640 You just do.

00:56:19.260 So we're going to be mindful of that.

00:56:20.900 Now, I do think if you're out of a primary context, the liberal media attacking you, I think, does help you with Republican voters because they'll get defensive.

00:56:31.700 When you're the nominee, they'll say, wait a minute, they're coming after our guy.

00:56:35.360 And there is a rally around the flag effect because conservatives just have no trust in the corporate media at this point.

00:56:41.920 That you do have that.

00:56:43.160 In the primary, it's a little bit different in terms of how all that shakes out.

00:56:47.140 But definitely, I would say that just the role that media plays and being able to get in the information flow is a really, really thing.

00:56:55.700 And of course, there's some people that can dominate that in ways that other candidates can't.

00:57:01.200 So you said that your strategy has shifted to some degree in the last few months and that you think it's become more effective.

00:57:09.140 So maybe you could elaborate on that a little bit.

00:57:12.020 So what we've done really, I think, you know, probably since the end of the summer is get involved in as many different media opportunities as possible.

00:57:20.460 I didn't really do a lot of the corporate media as governor because I didn't really need to.

00:57:25.380 And I knew they were just trying to distort everything.

00:57:27.840 We now do that.

00:57:29.000 I mean, I've done liberal shows.

00:57:31.140 I've gone on all that stuff.

00:57:32.680 And we're going to continue to do that.

00:57:34.580 I think you just get better churn when you're doing it.

00:57:37.740 What I've also, though, noticed is we've spent a lot of time in these early states, particularly Iowa, which is the first contest, the Iowa caucus.

00:57:45.900 And when you're on the ground there and we visited 98 of 99 counties, I'll finish the 99th this coming weekend, you do get good information flow with the local, local media.

00:57:58.580 And that's the thing.

00:57:59.240 It's like you could be in an area, you get a couple hundred people to come see you.

00:58:03.100 And that's important.

00:58:04.300 And when they come see us, we're able to shake their hand, answer their questions.

00:58:07.560 We went them over.

00:58:09.060 But, you know, you're it's whatever the media is then putting out to the community.

00:58:13.780 That's really what's going to be more influential.

00:58:15.560 So we've gotten in and we've done a lot of that.

00:58:18.200 And I think that that's been effective.

00:58:19.760 And we've been able to really build a big, big base of support in Iowa.

00:58:24.740 And when you're in a caucus situation, it's going to be cold.

00:58:28.280 You've got to show up at night on a weeknight.

00:58:31.440 And you've got to be there for two or three hours.

00:58:33.520 And so that takes a commitment.

00:58:34.700 It's not just mailing in a ballot.

00:58:36.500 So generating the type of people that are really true believers that you know are going to show up is key.

00:58:41.540 And we've created a really good base of support there.

00:58:44.040 Well, Governor, I know you're on a tight schedule and we have to wrap this up.

00:58:48.760 There's endless numbers of other questions I would like to ask you.

00:58:51.740 I guess the last thing I would like to know from you, I suppose, is what makes you think that you,

00:59:01.220 among the Republican contenders, are in the best position to be put forward as the Republican candidate for the next presidential election?

00:59:11.480 A few reasons.

00:59:12.180 One, I have a demonstrated record of fighting for people.

00:59:16.200 We've had a lot of Republicans over the years that basically just cave at the first sign of opposition to the media.

00:59:22.540 But I'm also somebody that when I fight, I win these battles.

00:59:27.180 And yes, win the election.

00:59:28.540 We want a historic victory in Florida.

00:59:30.980 We'd be able to beat Biden nationally without question.

00:59:34.500 But winning on all the policy fights, it's one thing to have a slogan about something.

00:59:40.320 But you actually got to bring it in for a landing.

00:59:42.020 So everything I talk about is done with an eye to how would I actually get it done, whether it's stopping the border invasion, whether it's reducing the bureaucracy and taming the deep state, whether it's getting the energy production at max capacity.

00:59:57.540 All these things are things that we're thinking about.

00:59:59.600 And the final thing is we really need a leader.

01:00:03.200 And you need leadership.

01:00:04.360 And that's what we've demonstrated.

01:00:05.900 And leadership is about doing the right thing when it's not easy.

01:00:09.320 When the wind's at your back, that's not really a test.

01:00:12.540 But when you have the wind in your face, when people are coming at you, are you going to stand for what's right, articulate that vision that people can rally around, or are you going to kind of scurry off into your little cubby and hope that you don't get hit with any incoming?

01:00:28.800 And I have a demonstrated record of leadership.

01:00:30.760 So people can know that with me as the candidate for the Republicans, when I get in there January 20th, 2025, we're going to get all of this done.

01:00:40.720 And we're going to have two terms to do it.

01:00:42.960 And the country is going to be in a much better position.

01:00:46.200 That winning the election is important, but then delivering on the promises.

01:00:50.040 That is the missing ingredient.

01:00:52.200 That's what we need to get done.

01:00:53.340 And that's what I represent.

01:00:55.300 Well, thank you very much for your time today, sir.

01:00:57.980 It's much appreciated.

01:00:58.860 It was a pleasure to get to know you a bit more.

01:01:02.040 With any luck, we'll have another opportunity to talk at some point during your campaign.

01:01:06.680 And best of luck on the trail.

01:01:08.480 They should have you host one of the debates.

01:01:10.440 I think it would be more informative.

01:01:12.940 I think you'd ask a lot of good questions.

01:01:14.660 Maybe we'll see if we can get something done.

01:01:16.600 Yeah, well, that would be a remarkable opportunity and a genuine privilege.

01:01:20.340 So I'd certainly be up for that.

01:01:22.460 Anyways, thank you very much for your time.

01:01:24.220 I know you're on a tight schedule.

01:01:25.600 I'm going to let you go.

01:01:26.560 I want to thank everybody who's watching and listening.

01:01:29.740 This is a very important upcoming presidential election, and it's necessary to spend the time required to inform yourself about the candidates and about the issues at hand, because it's a crucial election.

01:01:45.960 And so thank you to the Daily Wire Plus team for making this possible and to the camera crew here in Scottsdale.

01:01:53.020 And thanks once again, Governor DeSantis, for your time today.

01:01:57.200 It's much appreciated.

01:01:58.700 Thank you.

01:01:59.520 Take care.

01:01:59.960 Take care.

01:02:18.640 Bye.

01:02:19.580 Bye.

01:02:20.280 Bye.

01:02:20.920 Bye.

01:02:21.600 Bye.

01:02:22.620 Bye.

01:02:23.120 Bye.

01:02:23.860 Bye.

01:02:24.700 Bye.

01:02:24.900 Bye.

01:02:25.960 Bye.

01:02:26.460 Bye.

01:02:27.000 Bye.

01:02:27.140 Bye.

01:02:28.260 Bye.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - December 04, 2023

402. Who Is Ron DeSantis？

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