The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 406. The Man Behind the Dark Web ｜ Brett Johnson

00:00:00.960 Hey everyone, real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious and important.

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00:00:57.420 Hello, everyone.

00:01:11.060 I had the opportunity to speak to Brett Johnson.

00:01:14.960 And Brett, well, Brett had a rough life and led him to dark places, and he spent a lot of time setting up and running the darker edges of the web.

00:01:25.820 And for many years, and facilitating the development of online criminality, and that's become a real scourge in our society.

00:01:32.820 And that all changed about six years ago when he decided that he was going to work on the positive side of the universe for a while.

00:01:39.380 And so we spent a good amount of time walking through his bio and talking about how he got involved in Shadow Crew, say, from 2002 to 2004.

00:01:50.740 It was an early consortium of online criminals devoted to the sales of illegal goods, drugs, guns, identities, and information, and so forth.

00:02:00.300 And we walked through all that, and then the mechanics of his decision to stop and to start working with law enforcement agencies and so forth and with corporations and to inform the general public about the dangers of online crime and about how to protect yourself.

00:02:17.240 And, well, about the realities that we professionalize and organize criminality at the same rate that we're doing with everything else using this amazing technology that's at our fingertips.

00:02:30.720 So, welcome aboard. It's going to be quite the ride.

00:02:34.060 I've been studying this array of personality traits.

00:02:41.460 It's going to be a long question, but it'll get us right into what we want to talk about today, known as the dark tetrad.

00:02:50.320 Now, the dark tetrad is a group of descriptors of personality that are negative, and they emerged as an object of investigation for two reasons.

00:03:04.060 Okay, one reason was that there was this gentleman named Dr. Robert Hare, who worked at the University of British Columbia, and he was the first psychologist who studied psychopaths.

00:03:18.360 And he interviewed a lot of psychopaths in prison, hundreds of them, and developed a questionnaire measurement, a set of measurements, essentially, that helped determine what the personality characteristics were of people who were likely to become long-term, unrepentant career criminals.

00:03:42.720 And his students started to study that psychopathy, let's say.

00:03:46.920 It kind of had two components. It had a callous component.

00:03:50.060 So, people who are psychopathic are likely to be very high in the trait.

00:03:54.420 They're disagreeable, self-centered.

00:03:57.660 They have very little empathy for other people, and can be cruel if necessary.

00:04:03.700 And then they also tend to have a parasitical lifestyle, which means that they're perfectly willing to live on the earnings of other people or to manipulate them for that purpose.

00:04:13.800 That kind of makes up psychopathy.

00:04:15.920 They also tend to be relatively fearless.

00:04:18.020 So, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:04:20.940 So, and then his students started to study psychopathy in normal life, right?

00:04:30.180 Because many psychopaths end up in prison, but not all of them.

00:04:34.480 And so, Hare students started to study more normal psychopathy, so to speak.

00:04:41.400 At the same time, psychologists had put together a group of personality descriptors that covered the whole range of possible personality.

00:04:54.220 Five factors.

00:04:55.200 Extroversion.

00:04:55.920 Extroverted people are talkative and full of positive emotion.

00:04:59.740 Neuroticism.

00:05:00.800 That's a proclivity for negative emotion.

00:05:02.780 Agreeableness.

00:05:03.460 We talked about that a little bit already.

00:05:04.940 Conscientiousness and creativity or openness.

00:05:06.880 But they eliminated from those descriptors anything that was evaluative.

00:05:12.640 So, good, evil, bad, good, cruel, kind.

00:05:16.500 Most of those were taken out because they wanted to make a non-evaluative representation of personality.

00:05:22.120 But then that didn't work out so well because you had to keep in the evaluative terms for the study of, say, serious misbehavior.

00:05:30.880 And people started to look at how those descriptors clumped and came up with this dark tetrad model.

00:05:37.660 So, the darker sides of personality are Machiavellian.

00:05:42.880 So, Machiavellians will use manipulation to get what they want from people.

00:05:47.340 Psychopathy, which we already discussed.

00:05:49.440 Narcissism, which is the desire for unearned social status and attention.

00:05:53.280 And then sadism, which was the latest one that was added to that, which was something like positive delight in the suffering of others.

00:05:59.800 Okay, so that's the background.

00:06:01.900 Now, I've got extremely interested in this in recent years because our culture is splitting apart and there's a culture war that's occurring that's much more and more serious.

00:06:12.840 And it looks like part of that's driven by polarization.

00:06:16.540 And so, I'm concerned that polarization is driven fundamentally by the disinhibition of the psychopathic or dark tetrad types online.

00:06:27.620 So, in normal interactions between people, there are lots of evolved mechanisms to stop manipulation.

00:06:37.860 So, for example, if you and I have repeated interactions and if we're in a community where people know me and know you,

00:06:45.120 if you, you can probably pull the wool over my eyes two or three times, but by the third time, I'm going to catch on, maybe, and then I'll know you.

00:06:53.740 And then word will get around and that'll keep you under control, right?

00:06:57.580 And a lot of people are kept under control by nothing else than social reputation and social pressure.

00:07:03.980 That's all stripped away online.

00:07:05.600 And so, I'm concerned that the virtualization of the world is enabling the psychopaths.

00:07:12.780 Now, there's, I want to add one more thing to that before asking you more specifically about this.

00:07:18.500 I know already that about 35% of internet traffic is devoted to the propagation of pornography.

00:07:24.580 And my sense is it isn't the world's best guys that are involved in the production and distribution of pornography.

00:07:29.820 And then there's a huge area where there's overt criminality.

00:07:34.660 I mean, most of the elderly people I know are targeted on at least a weekly basis by people who are trying to steal everything they've got.

00:07:41.200 And then around that, there's an edge of sort of quasi-criminal behavior that is engaged in by the anonymous trolls and so forth.

00:07:49.740 The people who are doing their, what do they call it?

00:07:51.740 They're having their fun for the laws, which is to laugh out loud, to gain amusement at the expense of others.

00:07:57.940 And we also know that the people who do that are more likely to have these dark tetrad personality traits.

00:08:03.800 So, I'm wondering, you have extensive experience with this.

00:08:08.000 You ran an organization or were involved in it called Shadow Crew.

00:08:11.600 Correct.

00:08:12.140 2002 to 2004.

00:08:14.100 Right.

00:08:14.320 And so, and that was one of the earlier attempts to organize, how would you describe it?

00:08:19.480 Is it to organize criminal behavior, quasi-criminal behavior, illegal behavior, criminal?

00:08:24.520 Criminal, straight criminal behavior.

00:08:25.660 So, let's talk about Shadow Crew to begin with.

00:08:28.380 Tell everybody exactly what that was.

00:08:30.440 So, Shadow Crew was the first organized cybercrime community.

00:08:34.760 If you think about cybercrime, in order for it to succeed, three things have to take place.

00:08:39.160 You have to gather data.

00:08:40.080 That's the stolen PII.

00:08:41.460 That's credentials.

00:08:42.240 That's any type of tool that's used to help commit the crime, which is the second necessity of cybercrime.

00:08:47.280 And then the third necessity is cashing that crime out.

00:08:49.760 And that means either information access, data, or cash.

00:08:53.460 All right.

00:08:53.600 So, the problem is—

00:08:54.860 Okay.

00:08:55.140 So, the three were, again?

00:08:56.520 The three are gathering data.

00:08:58.100 Yeah.

00:08:58.380 Committing the crime.

00:08:59.200 Yeah.

00:08:59.580 Cashing out.

00:09:00.200 Okay.

00:09:00.680 Okay.

00:09:00.800 The issue is a single attacker, criminal, hacktivist, nation state, what have you, a single attacker cannot do all three things.

00:09:09.180 So, he has to network with other criminals who are good in those areas where he is not.

00:09:13.760 Right, right.

00:09:14.340 So, it's like a thief with a fence, for example.

00:09:16.420 That's it.

00:09:16.880 So, you're relying on the internet to fill that gap where you don't have skill.

00:09:24.360 Okay.

00:09:24.700 All right.

00:09:25.480 So, that's what ShadowCrew primarily did, was it allowed criminals to network with each other.

00:09:29.580 ShadowCrew is also the first forum or platform of its type that was a criminal marketplace for goods and services.

00:09:37.380 So, prior to Silk Road or whatever's around today, the dark web as we know it, ShadowCrew was that platform that began all of that.

00:09:45.520 Okay.

00:09:45.780 So, that was the origin point.

00:09:47.260 Right.

00:09:47.760 Okay.

00:09:48.320 Okay.

00:09:48.620 And that was, how old were you?

00:09:50.520 I was, so this was 2002, 32 through 35.

00:09:54.600 ShadowCrew makes the front cover of Forbes, August 2004, headline, Who's Stealing Your Identity?

00:09:59.680 October 26, 2004, Secret Service Arrest, 33 people, six countries, six hours.

00:10:05.180 Okay.

00:10:05.580 And how exactly were you involved in that?

00:10:08.580 Looking at financial cybercrime, the genesis of that, there are three sites.

00:10:12.780 There's Counterfeit Library, ShadowCrew, and then Carter Planet.

00:10:15.500 I ran both Counterfeit Library and ShadowCrew.

00:10:18.880 It starts with Counterfeit Library.

00:10:20.360 And the way it starts, geez, I mean, I grew up with a background in fraud.

00:10:27.660 Fraud.

00:10:28.340 Yeah.

00:10:28.580 My mom was basically a major fraudster in Eastern Kentucky. 1.00

00:10:33.260 So, I grew up knowing how to do document forgery, insurance fraud.

00:10:37.380 So, faking stolen cars, faking accidents, burning homes for cash, trafficking drugs, illegally strip mining coal.

00:10:44.060 That's my basis of everything.

00:10:45.620 And your mother was doing this? 0.84

00:10:47.020 My mom did that. 1.00

00:10:47.920 Yeah, my mom did that. 1.00

00:10:49.120 My dad.

00:10:49.680 How did she get involved in that?

00:10:52.360 That's a good question.

00:10:53.340 I would say from her family.

00:10:54.740 Because, as I grew up, it was really every single member on that side of the family.

00:10:59.500 My grandfather, for example, I mean, what he would do is he would buy stolen goods all the time.

00:11:03.460 He sat down.

00:11:04.000 We were in Eastern Kentucky.

00:11:04.900 He'd sit down on the porch of his house.

00:11:08.640 And people would bring up stolen goods.

00:11:10.260 And they'd try to give him a story on how it was acquired.

00:11:13.360 You know, Paul, this is where it comes from.

00:11:14.760 He'd stop them.

00:11:15.620 Son, I'm not an FBI agent.

00:11:17.320 I don't care.

00:11:17.980 How much do you want for it?

00:11:19.240 So, that's where things began.

00:11:21.480 But there's a lot of fraud in Eastern Kentucky.

00:11:23.380 That's not an excuse.

00:11:24.560 There's just a lot of fraud that takes place.

00:11:26.380 Okay, so there's a community there that engages in fraudulent practices regularly.

00:11:31.340 And your mother was neck deep in this.

00:11:32.880 My mom was neck deep.

00:11:33.260 And how old were you when you started to know that and started to get involved in it?

00:11:38.560 How old were you, do you think?

00:11:39.880 I was 10 years old when I started Break the Law.

00:11:42.560 Okay, how did you?

00:11:43.940 Okay, let me go a little bit even earlier than that.

00:11:47.200 So, how would you describe yourself as a child?

00:11:50.380 Like earlier than 10.

00:11:51.980 Did you have friends?

00:11:53.380 No, Dr. Peterson, I didn't really have friends.

00:11:57.540 I don't really have friends now.

00:12:00.020 Okay, and so why didn't you have friends when you were a kid?

00:12:02.800 My dad was in the military.

00:12:04.160 We moved around a lot.

00:12:05.500 My mom and dad, they argued all the time.

00:12:10.280 My entire circle were my parents and my sister.

00:12:13.840 And your sister?

00:12:14.680 Yeah.

00:12:14.960 And is your sister younger or older than you?

00:12:16.720 My sister's a year younger.

00:12:18.160 And do you have a relationship with her?

00:12:19.660 I do.

00:12:20.120 I do.

00:12:20.400 I have a very good relationship.

00:12:21.280 Did you have a good relationship with her when you were a kid?

00:12:24.260 I did, yeah.

00:12:25.640 Honestly, it was like me and her against the world.

00:12:28.220 Okay, so you had one person.

00:12:29.820 You had one person.

00:12:31.060 What was your relationship with your mom like?

00:12:32.980 My mom was the person who always told us that she gave up her life for us, that she was going to leave and not come back, that we'd find her dead in a ditch someplace. 0.81

00:12:43.900 She'd go out and no other word to describe it other than she'd go out and whore around with other men. 1.00

00:12:50.520 Like my father, once she leaves them, she would come home and tell me that, make up these stories about how the men had abused her, tried to rape her, everything else. 0.97

00:12:59.840 So I became the guy that, the kid who was scared that she wasn't going to come back.

00:13:05.300 I was a kid that if she wanted, if she was going someplace, I would try to go with her to make sure she was going to be okay.

00:13:12.760 So she was out there putting herself at risk constantly, but also, tell me if I've got this right.

00:13:19.740 I want to make sure I've got this right.

00:13:21.260 But then she'd also come home and tell you in particular how dangerous the situation was.

00:13:26.240 Yeah, me in particular.

00:13:27.420 Right, right.

00:13:28.020 And so was she trying to, was that, like, was she playing the martyr?

00:13:33.000 Was she trying to get attention? 0.97

00:13:34.760 Was she that confused?

00:13:36.220 Like, was she out for adventure?

00:13:38.080 Like, what do you think was going on with her?

00:13:40.020 So I view my mom, and I don't have a real relationship with my mom now, but I view her as the person who always tested people.

00:13:49.120 If I can do this to you, will you still love me at the end of the day?

00:13:54.060 She cheated prolifically on my father, abused him, tried to kill him, tried to poison him, and he always kept taking her back, always. 0.97

00:14:02.900 And I think that was, that's how I view my mom, is what could she do to you, and you would still love her at the end of the day.

00:14:12.060 Did you know her mother at all?

00:14:14.000 I did.

00:14:14.600 What was her mother like?

00:14:15.780 So, her mom, her mom's name was Alverna, and she was, I don't know if she was, she wasn't like that. 0.89

00:14:24.620 Yeah.

00:14:24.940 She, she was very condescending. 0.95

00:14:31.740 She was, she wouldn't say anything to your face, it was always behind your back, that type of mentality.

00:14:40.040 Now, my, now, grandfather, my, her father, Paul was very in your face, and Paul was.

00:14:46.020 And he was the one that was involved with the, with the fencing, essentially.

00:14:48.700 He was, yes.

00:14:50.140 So he was, he was always in your face.

00:14:52.200 He would, he would tell you what he thought of you, and it was almost as if he had a, he had high blood sugar, and he wouldn't take proper insulin for that a lot of the time, so he would go off the rocker a lot.

00:15:05.640 Oh, yeah.

00:15:06.200 And.

00:15:07.360 So that was the additional, an additional wild card.

00:15:09.620 But, but this is a man who, not only fencing, he would, if you, if you angered him, he would chase you around the house with, with a butcher knife, with a hose.

00:15:21.140 He, he rented apartments downstairs of, of his house.

00:15:24.700 He had converted the downstairs to apartments.

00:15:26.760 If he heard any noise down there after 11 o'clock at night, the breakers were upstairs.

00:15:30.420 He'd throw the breakers on the renters.

00:15:32.320 If you, we lived in the house with him for a while.

00:15:34.960 Once he went to bed at night, he slept in a bedroom off from the living room.

00:15:39.040 So he, he would watch the, the evening news at 11 p.m.

00:15:41.780 It would end at 11.30.

00:15:42.960 At 11.30, he went to bed.

00:15:45.160 You could watch television, but it had to be muted.

00:15:47.540 If he heard anything, and he kept his bedroom door open.

00:15:50.120 If he heard anything, he'd get up.

00:15:51.960 He'd throw the breakers at that point in time.

00:15:53.660 Uh, me and Denise, when, when my mom leaves my dad, um, we were allowed to take a bath once a week.

00:16:01.280 And, and Paul would measure the water.

00:16:03.840 You were allowed two inches of water.

00:16:05.360 And that was it.

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00:17:46.100 So that's, that was, that was exciting.

00:17:49.280 What was your emotional state like as a kid, when you were a little kid?

00:17:52.800 Say even before 10?

00:17:55.040 I don't remember a lot of that.

00:17:56.760 I remember, I remember, I remember, I remember just saying, you know, not wanting my mom and dad to argue.

00:18:03.820 If that makes any sense.

00:18:05.100 Yeah.

00:18:05.840 I remember, I've talked about it before, but I've got two earliest memories.

00:18:12.180 The one that I knew was real, we were in Fort Lewis.

00:18:14.780 My, my father was a captain in the military, and we were driving in the car.

00:18:17.960 Me and Denise were in the back seat.

00:18:19.640 Mom was in the passenger seat.

00:18:21.060 Dad was driving.

00:18:22.000 She was screaming at him.

00:18:23.380 And finally, she lunges across the car, grabs the steering wheel, and screams at him, 1.00

00:18:28.180 are you ready to die, you son of a bitch? 1.00

00:18:29.820 And tries to steer him into traffic. 1.00

00:18:31.260 And he was always, he always remained calm.

00:18:35.520 He was always, what can I do?

00:18:38.340 What can I do?

00:18:38.960 How can I help this?

00:18:40.900 The other memory I had was, and I didn't know it was real until I was in my 40s,

00:18:44.740 and my mom mentioned something about it.

00:18:46.260 But she had a, she had a woman tied up in the front yard of my grandfather's house, 1.00

00:18:52.340 and she was beating her. 1.00

00:18:53.620 And it turned out that she had cheated on my mom's sister with her husband. 0.99

00:18:59.560 And those are the two earliest memories I've got.

00:19:03.760 Oh, yeah.

00:19:04.260 Well, those are plenty rough.

00:19:06.220 They're a little rough.

00:19:07.280 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:19:09.100 But, you know, I didn't have friends.

00:19:11.900 It was always, it was always just that circle.

00:19:18.900 I don't know if you'd call it embarrassment or what, man.

00:19:21.660 Say that again. 0.71

00:19:22.320 I don't know if you'd call it embarrassment, not wanting to bring people around.

00:19:25.080 Yeah, well, yeah, yeah.

00:19:27.300 Yeah, so you couldn't see how you could bring people over to your house.

00:19:32.620 Yeah.

00:19:33.540 And how, you said you moved around a lot because your dad was in the military.

00:19:37.200 He was.

00:19:37.460 Okay, so you're moving constantly.

00:19:39.400 That makes making friends difficult.

00:19:41.600 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:19:43.160 And what about your father?

00:19:44.900 What sort of relation, how often was he around,

00:19:47.000 and what sort of relationship did you have with him?

00:19:48.960 My dad passed away about six weeks ago.

00:19:52.660 And growing up, my dad was always the center of reason, if that makes sense.

00:19:59.560 And you never heard him yell or scream.

00:20:03.000 And when my mom was, you know, doing these things, he would, you know, try to reason with her.

00:20:08.340 She would bring men home in front of him, and he would cry.

00:20:11.540 And beg her not to, she'd do it anyway.

00:20:13.260 She brought this one man home and told him that she was leaving him. 1.00

00:20:17.620 And, you know, he's sitting there crying.

00:20:19.800 She leaves for a few weeks, comes back.

00:20:23.120 I love my dad.

00:20:24.260 I did.

00:20:24.660 What happens is, is that my mom leaves my dad.

00:20:28.160 I was 10.

00:20:29.440 My sister today's nine.

00:20:30.640 And we moved from Panama City, Florida, to Hazard, Kentucky.

00:20:35.440 And you asked for, you know, that entry into crime.

00:20:39.200 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:20:40.400 So, mom had been gone for a few days.

00:20:42.800 I was a guy that didn't think she was going to come back, always worried about her.

00:20:47.020 Denise was the kid at nine, just pissed off all the time. 1.00

00:20:50.460 And mom had been gone.

00:20:52.620 Denise walks in one day with a pack of pork chops in her hand,

00:20:55.380 because we didn't have any food in the house.

00:20:57.280 Couldn't go upstairs and eat, because they would talk about us all the time.

00:21:00.640 You know, you'd go upstairs to try to get something to eat.

00:21:04.260 And while you were sitting there eating, they'd say stuff.

00:21:09.720 Who would?

00:21:10.560 My grandmother and my grandfather.

00:21:14.000 So, you know, you didn't want to go upstairs a lot.

00:21:18.000 You wanted to just stay downstairs in the apartment.

00:21:19.800 What would happen if they said things about you?

00:21:22.220 Well, nothing.

00:21:22.840 I mean, they'd feed you.

00:21:23.860 Don't make no mistake.

00:21:24.800 They'd feed you.

00:21:25.480 But, you know, at the same time they were feeding you, you know,

00:21:27.500 your mom needs to get a job. 1.00

00:21:28.680 Your mom needs to do this. 1.00

00:21:29.760 You know, I can't believe this is going on.

00:21:32.580 All that stuff.

00:21:33.220 So, I took that kind of personal.

00:21:35.640 I think Denise did, too.

00:21:37.300 So, Denise walks in one day, and she's got a pack of pork chops in her hand. 0.99

00:21:40.700 I'm like, where'd you get that?

00:21:41.780 She's stealing it. 1.00

00:21:42.540 She shopped it, too.

00:21:43.760 And she was nine?

00:21:44.820 She was nine.

00:21:45.520 Uh-huh.

00:21:45.800 And we started stealing food.

00:21:50.140 The shopping plaza that had the A&P, it's got a Kmart in it, starts shoplifting other things.

00:21:56.340 Hoodies, so you can put, you know, the way that started, we wanted a sandwich.

00:21:59.660 So, I went in, got a hoodie off the rack, took the tags off of it, and stuffed a loaf of bread down the sleeve of the hoodie, threw it across the shoulder.

00:22:07.480 Uh-huh.

00:22:07.840 And from there, it was video games, and jewelry, and clothes, and all that.

00:22:12.140 Mom comes home and sees the stuff that we've stolen.

00:22:14.760 Takes her a while to notice what we've stolen, but asks where it came from.

00:22:20.280 I tell her we found it.

00:22:21.420 She's like, no, you didn't find that.

00:22:22.740 Denise, we stole it.

00:22:23.980 My mom looks at my sister, show me how you did that. 1.00

00:22:26.780 And not only does she join us and start running into us as little shoplifters, but she calls her mom to join us as well. 1.00

00:22:31.740 So, we used to take these road trips, and that's a lot of the problem I have right now.

00:22:38.980 When you were that young, okay, so the way you describe this starting is that, well, there's certainly an element of necessity in it.

00:22:47.920 Right.

00:22:48.380 Right.

00:22:48.780 And you're obviously at 9 and 10, you're pretty damn little, and your family has plenty of problems, to put it mildly.

00:22:55.660 And so, Denise, you said, she starts to shoplift, and then you're doing that next, and relatively quickly.

00:23:02.260 Did you have some sense at that point that it was wrong?

00:23:05.240 No, sir.

00:23:05.980 You didn't?

00:23:06.520 No.

00:23:06.640 And why not, do you think?

00:23:08.100 I don't think I even cared.

00:23:10.580 I mean, I knew that, I mean, I knew walking into Kmart that, you know, stealing stuff, that people were watching you.

00:23:16.900 Yeah, that you might get caught.

00:23:18.320 Yeah, but I didn't care.

00:23:19.680 Right, right.

00:23:20.280 Do you have any idea why, I mean, you can infer from what you've said about your family why you didn't care, but have you thought about that any more in the intervening years?

00:23:29.400 I have.

00:23:29.880 I spend a lot of time trying to think through that, and the answer is, well, we needed it, or at least I've convinced myself that we needed it.

00:23:37.400 I mean, we could have won up to it.

00:23:38.000 Yeah, well, there's some evidence for that, by the sounds of things.

00:23:40.380 I mean, you were pretty young, and you're pretty desperate, and so you can imagine how your sister might have been tempted into doing that the first time.

00:23:48.080 And, well, then this problem is solved, but then, you know, I'm kind of curious, too, at one point, especially once your mom joined in, at some point, I would imagine it got to be both a thrill and a game.

00:23:57.780 Oh, it is.

00:23:58.500 It is.

00:23:59.100 It absolutely is.

00:24:00.420 So, you know, reasoning needed it, wanted the stuff, you know, we couldn't afford an Intellivision or an Atari 2600, so I'll take it.

00:24:08.620 Right, right.

00:24:09.380 And then it gets quickly to the point where you want to find out what you can get away with, which is also what you described, to some degree, what your mom was toying with all the time, to see what she could get away with, right?

00:24:21.380 Why do you think your father, do you have any sense of why your father put up with this?

00:24:27.340 Yeah, I do.

00:24:29.280 Part of it, I think, is my dad was always scared of the people that he loved leaving.

00:24:33.740 Now, that's my perception.

00:24:35.100 Yeah, okay.

00:24:35.600 Whether that's true or not, that's because—

00:24:37.300 Well, it's possible that it's true.

00:24:38.380 I do that a lot myself these days.

00:24:39.880 Yeah.

00:24:40.520 But a lot of it is my dad was not a man that—my dad was not a man who had much of a backbone a lot of the time.

00:24:49.560 Right, right, right.

00:24:50.560 Okay, so from a personality perspective, he would be—your mother would be disagreeable and high in negative emotion, to say the least, and your dad, very agreeable.

00:24:59.560 Agreeable people have a hard time standing up for themselves, and they can easily be taken advantage of.

00:25:05.920 But they would also be the sort of person—they are also the sort of person who's very inclined to take care of other people and who will always see nothing but their good side.

00:25:14.440 That's my dad.

00:25:15.380 But I want you to understand, too, that my dad, I really do believe that, you know, he wanted to commit the crime, too.

00:25:20.920 You know, if mom had an idea to burn a home or fake a stolen car in an accident or something like that, I don't think that he had the backbone to do it himself.

00:25:31.820 I think that he absolutely was all for it.

00:25:35.260 I mean, he would not hesitate if mom wanted to do something like that.

00:25:38.520 Right, so he was involved in those things as well.

00:25:41.140 He was.

00:25:41.680 He was.

00:25:42.220 The only two—

00:25:43.200 So how do you think—how do you jive that with the fact that he also—I mean, he had a military career.

00:25:48.760 He rose to the rank of captain.

00:25:50.240 He must have been able to follow rules and to abide by principles.

00:25:54.180 Why do you think—what did you think it was about the criminal activity that was attractive to him?

00:26:00.300 I think it's getting away with something that no one else is doing.

00:26:03.560 I think it's—he had the confines of the military, that type of structured environment.

00:26:08.360 Yeah, being told what to do all the time, too.

00:26:10.480 And it's easy enough to do that, but at the same time, you want to buck a little bit.

00:26:14.240 Mm-hmm.

00:26:14.680 You know, you—

00:26:15.120 Okay, so this issue of getting away with it.

00:26:17.900 So maybe you can tell me this, and this should be relevant to what we talk about later, when you were a kid.

00:26:23.240 Like, they're—so kids, when they're in their teenage years, generally shoplift and break laws to some degree.

00:26:30.720 In fact, the clinical evidence shows that—imagine there's three categories of kids.

00:26:35.640 There's kids that break rules all the time.

00:26:38.360 They don't have a good outcome.

00:26:40.200 A lot of them end up in prison.

00:26:41.840 Then there's kids who never break any rules.

00:26:44.820 They don't have a good outcome either.

00:26:46.580 They often end up dependent, depressed, and anxious.

00:26:50.520 Right, and it's—they're not breaking—they're not not breaking rules because they're good.

00:26:55.760 They're not breaking rules because they're intimidated and afraid.

00:26:59.120 Okay.

00:26:59.340 And then there's kids in the middle who toy with rule breaking, especially when they're adolescents, but then, you know, they usually straighten out by the time they're 16 or 17 and put that behind them.

00:27:09.400 Right?

00:27:09.640 So, now, when I was a kid in my little town, I can remember in junior high, shoplifting was all the rage.

00:27:17.040 And if you were good at it, there was certainly a certain amount of status associated with that.

00:27:21.320 I had a couple of people I knew.

00:27:23.740 They were older, tough guys, athletic types, big farm kids.

00:27:28.980 And their triumph was stealing a canoe.

00:27:32.500 Right?

00:27:33.640 Shoplifting a canoe, which is—like, they didn't even really need a canoe, but it was really a brazen act.

00:27:38.260 Right?

00:27:38.460 Like, what's the most preposterous thing we can possibly get away with?

00:27:42.460 And that issue of getting away with it, you know, there's a kind of—there's a—I think of it as a kind of arrogance and pride that's associated with that.

00:27:51.220 Like, because one—and one of the things that is true of the more psychopathic types of criminals is that they generally justify their crime with a rationalization that goes something like, 0.98

00:28:01.480 if you're so stupid that I can take advantage of you, then you deserve exactly what you have coming to you. 1.00

00:28:06.700 Right? 1.00

00:28:07.060 And it's also a demonstration of the criminal superiority in that situation.

00:28:12.500 And so, I'm wondering—well, I'm wondering what you think about those sorts of motivations in relationship to what your family was doing after your mother put together this little crime network around you two as kids.

00:28:26.200 I don't think that—the superiority.

00:28:30.420 I don't see that in my childhood.

00:28:34.580 Okay.

00:28:34.900 I don't.

00:28:36.400 All right.

00:28:36.740 I absolutely see that once I branch off my own.

00:28:39.520 Yeah.

00:28:39.840 Okay.

00:28:40.320 Okay.

00:28:40.380 So, yeah, that's—right, right.

00:28:42.600 Okay.

00:28:42.840 So, that comes later.

00:28:44.000 Right.

00:28:44.540 Right.

00:28:44.920 Okay.

00:28:45.320 Okay.

00:28:45.620 But I wouldn't have thought either that that was what motivated the initial crimes, because you already laid out, really, how that happened.

00:28:53.020 Right.

00:28:53.240 You're relatively desperate kids.

00:28:54.840 You're relatively isolated.

00:28:55.940 You don't exactly have the best moral models.

00:28:59.780 Plus, you're hungry, and eating is a pain, and, you know, it sort of happens one step at a time, and then your mother facilitates, your father joins in.

00:29:07.120 That's perfectly understandable.

00:29:08.600 Okay, so now you said your mother leaves your father about when you're 10?

00:29:13.800 About 10.

00:29:14.000 Is that permanent?

00:29:14.920 10, 11, somewhere through there, yes.

00:29:16.720 That's permanent.

00:29:17.480 Absolutely.

00:29:17.820 And then, so what are her relationships like after that?

00:29:20.860 So, after that, she was a nurse, an LPN.

00:29:24.060 She was a nurse? 0.99

00:29:24.860 Yes, she was.

00:29:25.740 But the thing about my mom was she would get a job long enough to see my dad off to work. 0.93

00:29:31.260 She'd quit the job and then go out partying. 0.97

00:29:34.600 That was my mom. 0.98

00:29:35.700 So, when she leaves my dad, we moved back to Kentucky.

00:29:40.320 My grandfather, like I said, he lived in a house.

00:29:42.380 He had elevated the house and built apartments underneath.

00:29:44.640 So, we ended up living in an apartment underneath.

00:29:46.920 My mom, yeah, she started out with a job as a nurse, but that lasted a few weeks, at which point she, there was another lady down the street. 1.00

00:29:55.880 She hooked up with her and they would go out partying on her and basically leave me and Denise at home. 0.96

00:30:01.260 And did your mother drink a lot? 0.96

00:30:02.900 She did not.

00:30:03.520 She was a Valium user, though.

00:30:05.200 Valium.

00:30:05.640 Yeah, she was on Benzo.

00:30:05.860 Any other drugs?

00:30:07.560 Valium pot, probably drink as well, but I absolutely remember the Valium.

00:30:11.320 Okay, okay.

00:30:12.080 All right.

00:30:12.640 So, a big Benzo user, but she would, it was all about partying. 0.94

00:30:17.960 It was about a host of men that she would come home and she was either dating them and she would always pick the most dangerous.

00:30:25.220 Man, she could possibly find.

00:30:27.080 So, it was.

00:30:27.860 Oh, so those are the kind of guys that were around?

00:30:29.580 Oh, yeah.

00:30:29.880 She liked those types of guys.

00:30:31.380 So, there was one who had murdered his girlfriend slash wife, whatever that was, and had supposedly had a blackout and didn't remember it.

00:30:39.720 So, I got to hear all about that.

00:30:40.940 Finally, she meets the man who would become my stepfather, and Jimmy was his name.

00:30:46.580 And he was not a bad guy.

00:30:48.740 He was not.

00:30:49.280 He was an alcoholic, but he worked hard every single day.

00:30:55.220 I don't know what to tell you.

00:30:56.560 The way they met, to hear my mom tell it, what had happened was, she went to walk into a nightclub. 0.97

00:31:02.360 He was standing outside.

00:31:03.580 He looks at her and says, hey, why don't we go make some babies?

00:31:06.300 And she looks at him and says, well, come on.

00:31:08.320 And that was the way they met, and they had a relationship from that point.

00:31:11.420 You asked about my child.

00:31:16.100 It's funny that they'd want to, it's funny in some ways, meeting like that, that they'd actually want to have a relationship, because it's a hell of a, right?

00:31:24.140 It's so contradictory, is that you establish a sexual relationship really at the drop of a hat.

00:31:30.200 Right.

00:31:30.420 And yet, even then, there's a pull towards something like an actual relationship.

00:31:35.880 And Jimmy, from what you're telling me, it sounds like Jimmy wasn't as bad as some of the guys that your mom dragged home.

00:31:42.860 I would agree.

00:31:43.820 Yeah.

00:31:44.200 And how old were you?

00:31:45.380 Did she marry him, or did they just live together?

00:31:47.440 She married him while I was in juvenile detention.

00:31:50.360 Did she divorce your father?

00:31:52.520 She did.

00:31:53.140 Okay.

00:31:53.540 She did.

00:31:53.780 Okay.

00:31:53.980 And how old were you when she married Jimmy?

00:31:55.920 Fifteen.

00:31:56.660 Fifteen.

00:31:57.100 And that's, you were in a juvenile detention center?

00:31:59.040 I was.

00:31:59.180 Okay, so, how, let's go through the progression of your criminal career.

00:32:03.660 You start out with shoplifting.

00:32:05.500 I did.

00:32:05.800 And then that expands under the tutelage, really, and the participation of your mother and your father and your grandmother and your sister.

00:32:13.060 Anyone else involved in that?

00:32:14.600 I mean, not really.

00:32:16.220 Like, Paul, he did a lot of fencing.

00:32:17.720 Paul was just a little crazy, violently crazy at times.

00:32:21.420 All right, so, but. 0.96

00:32:22.240 And Paul was?

00:32:23.180 My grandfather.

00:32:23.780 Paul was your grandfather.

00:32:25.480 But it was my mom, my sister.

00:32:27.740 I hesitate to say her criminal experience because other than shoplifting, she doesn't do anything else.

00:32:34.640 I see, I see.

00:32:35.580 So, she didn't continue to.

00:32:37.900 She did not.

00:32:38.700 Uh-huh.

00:32:38.840 And was there a point in her life when she quit shoplifting as well?

00:32:42.680 Yeah, so.

00:32:43.020 How old was she when she?

00:32:43.980 This would have been 12 or 13.

00:32:46.040 Oh, oh, okay, so she quit early. 0.98

00:32:47.880 Yeah, so, and what happened was is we took this road trip to Bristol, Tennessee.

00:32:51.880 There was a mall called the Henry, Fort Henry Mall, and they would go to J.C. Penney's to steal clothes and jewelry.

00:32:58.140 I would always go to the bookstore and steal books.

00:33:00.180 So, I was in the bookstore, B. Dalton Bookstore, stealing books.

00:33:02.980 Why were you stealing books?

00:33:04.560 Because I like to read a lot.

00:33:06.040 So, yeah, so I was stealing books and.

00:33:12.100 It's like a virtuous cry.

00:33:13.360 I know, right?

00:33:14.060 Yeah, yeah.

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00:34:23.320 Cool.

00:34:24.080 I was stealing books and I was supposed to meet them back at the vehicle as they were coming out chasing Penny, so I go back to the vehicle, nobody's there.

00:34:30.400 I wait about 30 minutes, walk into JCPenney's, there's two guards outside, and I literally hear my name come over their walkie-talkies for Brett Johnson.

00:34:39.020 I'm like, that's me.

00:34:40.140 So go up and they'd gotten caught at that point.

00:34:43.000 So that ended their shoplifting experience and that ended Denise's little foray into criminal activity too. 0.97

00:34:49.940 And she, so why do you think she quit?

00:34:53.980 Denise never, I don't think she ever wanted to do it.

00:34:56.280 I think Denise actually had that moral compass at that point.

00:34:59.440 I see.

00:34:59.980 So you think she was primarily driven to it by necessity.

00:35:03.280 Yeah.

00:35:03.820 And then your mother was participating and so it got extended.

00:35:06.760 And then when the hammer came down, that was enough.

00:35:09.460 And so, so, okay, well, we'll get back to, we'll get back to Denise later.

00:35:13.740 Okay.

00:35:13.960 So, so now you, on the other hand, you're shoplifting and now, and so how are you reacting to doing it?

00:35:20.460 Now you saw your mom and your sister get caught.

00:35:22.480 Why didn't that stop you?

00:35:24.120 Well, because I was getting the stuff that I wanted.

00:35:26.560 Okay.

00:35:27.000 You know, I was, we couldn't afford the video games or the clothes or later on I was doing the dine and dash routine at restaurants and stuff like that.

00:35:36.280 We couldn't afford them.

00:35:37.920 So it became this thing of, okay, if I can't afford it, I'll take it.

00:35:41.440 Right, right, right.

00:35:43.000 But, but, and even at this point, 12, 13, do you have other guys around you at that point, other friends or not then either?

00:35:49.200 Not really.

00:35:49.660 You're still doing most of this alone.

00:35:50.740 So, so in our neighborhood, there were, there were four boys.

00:35:54.060 There was me, my cousin, two kids live down the street.

00:35:57.840 And we all basically, you know, we all were in the, in the mess.

00:36:01.940 Yeah.

00:36:02.220 As that goes to speak.

00:36:03.800 But, you know, we grew up in that environment and all of us were getting in some sort of trouble.

00:36:11.340 Right, but you also, you also don't, it doesn't seem that also that you're inclined to characterize them as friends.

00:36:17.580 That's true.

00:36:18.300 I'm not.

00:36:19.620 Okay, okay.

00:36:20.400 And you said that's even true now, eh?

00:36:22.140 Yeah, I don't, when I speak, I do a lot of speaking.

00:36:25.980 And when I speak, I, I'm, I tell people I never had friends while I was a criminal.

00:36:31.080 I had associates because you don't have friends.

00:36:32.680 I lied to everybody.

00:36:33.560 Yeah, right.

00:36:34.220 All right.

00:36:34.680 And I don't think.

00:36:35.140 Yes, that's an unstable basis for friendship.

00:36:36.920 Yeah, I don't think you can have friends when you're lying to people.

00:36:38.240 No, it's tough.

00:36:39.100 Yeah.

00:36:39.340 Um, these days I, uh, I don't have friends.

00:36:45.100 I mean, I've got my wife.

00:36:46.720 Yeah.

00:36:47.160 Um, next door neighbors, a few people like that.

00:36:50.040 Yeah.

00:36:50.340 But I'm not, uh, I'm not the guy that, uh, has what I think is, would be considered real friendships.

00:36:58.260 You know?

00:36:58.420 Yeah, well, it's a hard thing to establish later in life if you don't have a pattern of doing that from, probably from about the age of three, to tell you the truth.

00:37:07.320 Like, there are boys, I'm not sure, were you an aggressive kid?

00:37:13.040 No.

00:37:13.360 Okay, okay.

00:37:14.300 So, so one of the typical patterns for long-term criminality is there's a small minority of boys, about five percent, who are quite aggressive by temperament at age two.

00:37:24.440 They kick, hit, steal, and bite.

00:37:26.720 And so if you put them with other two-year-olds, you know, they're aggressive.

00:37:29.780 Right.

00:37:29.960 Now, two-year-olds tend to be egocentric anyways, but these two-year-olds are egocentric and aggressive.

00:37:35.760 Most of those boys are socialized by the age of four.

00:37:39.820 And so then, and what that means is they start to develop friendships that are somewhat reciprocal at about the age of three, and then that expands.

00:37:46.960 Right.

00:37:47.100 And they're often boys who are disciplined appropriately, often by fathers at home.

00:37:53.460 Right.

00:37:53.980 And then they get to be socialized well enough so they can have friends, and then they have friends.

00:37:57.900 And instead of being aggressive and tilting in the exploitative direction like they did when they were two, they learn to be, you know, competitive within the confines of sports and so forth.

00:38:09.280 They sublimate it into some other, yeah, yeah, but if they don't manage that by the time they're four, they never manage it.

00:38:17.740 It's very hard to be socialized into a friendship network if you don't accomplish it between the ages of two and four.

00:38:24.180 Okay.

00:38:24.340 Right.

00:38:24.560 Yeah, it seems to lay down the pattern for it or something like that.

00:38:27.840 Right.

00:38:28.160 Establish the expectations.

00:38:29.640 We don't exactly understand it that well.

00:38:32.040 Okay, so between 10 and 15, are you still in school?

00:38:36.840 Are you going to school with a degree of regularity?

00:38:38.660 How are you doing in school?

00:38:40.260 I was extremely bright in school, but bored a lot.

00:38:45.720 Yeah, yeah.

00:38:46.320 So would miss a lot of school, would typically not do a lot of the work, thought that I knew more than the teachers a lot of the time, and did not hesitate sometimes to tell them that.

00:38:59.920 So that was my school experience.

00:39:02.340 How far did you get in school?

00:39:04.440 Halfway through bachelor's.

00:39:06.200 Oh, okay.

00:39:06.800 So you went off to college or university?

00:39:08.920 I did.

00:39:09.180 And what did you take in college?

00:39:10.480 English lit and theater.

00:39:14.040 Okay.

00:39:15.320 Okay.

00:39:15.880 Okay.

00:39:16.440 Okay.

00:39:17.040 All right.

00:39:17.600 So now, as your shoplifting expands, what other activities are you getting involved in on the shadow side of the law?

00:39:30.060 Like, are you drinking?

00:39:31.000 Are you smoking?

00:39:31.580 Are you, were you ever a drug user when you were young?

00:39:34.780 No, I didn't start drinking until I was 34.

00:39:38.000 Never used drugs.

00:39:38.600 Really?

00:39:39.100 Yeah.

00:39:39.740 Really?

00:39:40.400 Okay.

00:39:40.860 So that's strange.

00:39:41.900 So how in the world did you manage to skirt the, more than skirt the frontiers of, like, shoplifting and other sorts of criminal behavior when you're a teenager?

00:39:52.760 Especially with a mother who's partying all the time. 1.00

00:39:56.360 And that sort of influenced around you.

00:39:58.440 Why in the world weren't you attracted to alcohol and drug use?

00:40:02.320 I didn't want to be like my mom.

00:40:04.720 Okay.

00:40:04.940 But that's very specific because you were engaging in criminal activity with her.

00:40:10.900 But there was something about the drug world that really you weren't happy about.

00:40:14.640 Okay.

00:40:14.920 So what was that?

00:40:16.000 What is it exactly that you decided you weren't going to participate in?

00:40:18.900 I don't want to lose control under some sort of substance.

00:40:21.680 I want to be in control myself.

00:40:23.820 I see.

00:40:24.500 I see.

00:40:24.980 And so you saw her lose control.

00:40:27.420 Yeah.

00:40:28.220 In ways that were, what do you say?

00:40:30.560 Were they frightening?

00:40:31.320 Were they otherwise off-putting?

00:40:32.700 What was it about the influence of drugs on her that you particularly objected to and didn't want to replicate?

00:40:38.220 So I associate my mom's drug use with that verbal, mental, physical abuse that she did to everyone. 1.00

00:40:48.140 Everyone.

00:40:49.220 I associate her wantonness with other men with that drug use.

00:40:54.560 Right, right.

00:40:55.280 The way that she treated my father, the way she tried to kill my father sometimes. 1.00

00:40:59.080 I associated all of that with that.

00:41:00.740 I never had kids.

00:41:01.580 I didn't start drinking until I was 34.

00:41:04.160 Have never used drugs.

00:41:06.760 All because of that.

00:41:08.100 Do I think I missed out sometimes?

00:41:09.420 Yeah.

00:41:10.080 Yeah, I think I missed out sometimes.

00:41:11.540 Yeah, but it sounds like you missed out on an awful lot of trouble.

00:41:14.500 Yeah.

00:41:15.780 But yeah, 34 when my wife leaves, my first wife, when she leaves me, I started drinking at that point.

00:41:24.520 Basically, it was like, screw it, why not?

00:41:26.180 Right, right, right, right, right, right, right.

00:41:30.040 Okay, so let's go through from 10 to 15.

00:41:33.900 You ended up in juvenile detentation.

00:41:36.360 Okay, so how did that progress?

00:41:38.180 Now, you finished school and well enough so that you could go to university.

00:41:41.700 Correct.

00:41:41.900 Okay, so we'll deal with that on a different track.

00:41:43.840 But now you're, so how is it that your shoplifting expands and into what other criminal endeavors and how is it that you get brought to the attention of the law?

00:41:53.040 So I don't, I don't associate the, that juvenile stuff with the shoplifting stuff.

00:41:59.200 Oh, okay.

00:41:59.820 For me, I put it on two different tracks.

00:42:01.580 All right.

00:42:01.860 And the way that I associate that, when I was, geez, I don't know, seven, eight years old, I would catch my mom and dad, I would catch them gone, and I would urinate in the house, on the carpet, down the drains, in the sink, something like that.

00:42:16.980 All right.

00:42:17.340 I don't know if it's correct or not.

00:42:21.320 I didn't talk about that until I was about 46.

00:42:23.820 I got on the stage.

00:42:24.940 So me with therapy, I do a lot of my therapy in front of a crowd.

00:42:29.080 And because that's the only place I feel like I can be safe doing that, as weird as that is.

00:42:33.820 But I started talking about it.

00:42:36.340 I had a woman come up to me afterwards that said that she used to work with abused children, and she was like, that's a control mechanism.

00:42:42.280 That's the only control you had left was that.

00:42:44.540 That's okay, fair enough.

00:42:45.680 But what happens is, my mom leaves my dad.

00:42:51.060 I was under the impression that I was going to be able to go and live with my dad.

00:42:55.000 So one day, I call my dad up, and he tells me that not only am I not going to live with him, but he's gotten married.

00:43:03.120 I didn't know who he married or anything else.

00:43:05.900 How long after your mother left your father did you find out this?

00:43:10.140 Two years.

00:43:11.200 Two years.

00:43:11.720 Two or three years.

00:43:12.260 Had you seen your father in that intervening time?

00:43:14.340 I had not.

00:43:15.140 I didn't have a conversation with my dad for about 20 years.

00:43:18.220 I see.

00:43:18.640 So your mom left your dad at 10, and he just disappeared in your life.

00:43:22.040 Outside out of mine.

00:43:23.200 Right.

00:43:23.680 But you were hoping, there was a part of you that was hoping that he wanted you to go live with him, and that's what you wanted.

00:43:30.080 Yeah, I would call him every now and then.

00:43:31.500 You know, I would call him like every two weeks.

00:43:33.120 I'd have to leave the house where he'd live, and that same Kmart I was shoplifting from, they had a pay phone outside.

00:43:38.840 I'd go out there and call the man.

00:43:45.180 And talk to him.

00:43:46.120 And, uh, thought that, excuse me, thought that I was going to live with him.

00:43:56.400 And, uh.

00:43:57.320 So you were talking to him on the phone?

00:43:59.720 Yeah.

00:44:00.020 Okay, okay.

00:44:00.740 So you had that much contact?

00:44:01.860 Yeah.

00:44:02.440 And did he know that you assumed that you were going to live with him?

00:44:05.300 He did.

00:44:06.080 He did.

00:44:06.780 But he didn't, he didn't tell you that that wasn't, it was, do you think maybe he was hoping that that would happen?

00:44:11.720 Or what did he, was he unwilling to dash your hopes?

00:44:14.960 Or what, what do you think was, why do you think that he wasn't letting you know how the, what the lay of the land was?

00:44:22.100 So, um, I think there's a few reasons for that.

00:44:24.580 I think that, um, it's lack of backbone.

00:44:26.940 Yeah.

00:44:27.140 Saying what needs to be said.

00:44:28.680 I think that, um, you know, after I talked to him, after he, you know,

00:44:31.800 after we kind of made amends and everything, I, I found out that he, he, he didn't have anything.

00:44:36.820 He was living in an apartment.

00:44:37.860 He had to walk back and forth from work.

00:44:39.600 Uh, he had a dog he couldn't afford to keep. 1.00

00:44:41.540 He gave his damn dog away. 0.99

00:44:43.280 So he didn't have anything. 1.00

00:44:44.480 And I don't think he wanted to, uh, to tell his son that.

00:44:48.100 That he couldn't.

00:44:49.040 Yeah.

00:44:49.780 Yeah.

00:44:50.840 Right.

00:44:51.280 Yeah.

00:44:51.480 Well, you know, things often have multiple causes.

00:44:54.340 Yeah.

00:44:54.860 Right, right, right.

00:44:56.180 So what happens is, is, uh, he tells me that in the neighborhood that I lived in, there was a hospital out at the end of the street.

00:45:06.020 I walk into the hospital, get in the elevator.

00:45:09.960 Woman walks in and, uh, I assault her at that point in time. 1.00

00:45:14.880 Beat the hell out of her. 0.95

00:45:16.340 Hmm.

00:45:16.640 And, uh, I get arrested for that.

00:45:20.040 I was 15.

00:45:21.200 Get arrested for that.

00:45:22.320 That's why I was in juvenile detention.

00:45:23.640 I see.

00:45:24.180 So that's why that's separate from the other.

00:45:26.560 Yes.

00:45:26.860 Right.

00:45:27.240 And so, now, okay, so, look, I don't want to poke and prod in places that are going to be too distressing.

00:45:34.100 It's fine.

00:45:34.400 Okay, okay.

00:45:35.160 So, so my sense of that is that you're, what would you say?

00:45:40.220 Betrayed, outraged, and hurt beyond belief at that point.

00:45:43.900 Right?

00:45:44.260 You're living with your mother.

00:45:45.580 That's not going very well for all the, for all the reasons you laid out.

00:45:49.700 You're nursing this fantasy that you're going to go live with your father and things are going to be all right.

00:45:55.160 And that vanishes.

00:45:56.560 Right.

00:45:56.680 And so now you're, now, now, but the question is, why do you think that translated into the action you took in the hospital?

00:46:04.500 She looked a lot like my mom.

00:46:07.360 I see.

00:46:08.440 I see.

00:46:09.240 Why did you go into the hospital, do you think?

00:46:11.800 We used to, as kids, we didn't have any money.

00:46:13.920 We used to go up there and hop the elevators.

00:46:16.020 Run them up and down.

00:46:17.240 Oh, I see.

00:46:18.100 So that was just something you were in there doing for fun.

00:46:20.420 Yeah.

00:46:21.080 Okay, so you didn't go into the hospital with any, like, aggressive intent in mind.

00:46:26.260 No.

00:46:27.020 And so you saw this woman?

00:46:28.900 What happened exactly?

00:46:29.980 I guess all the, I just, through the, she walks in, I was so pissed off that I just started beating.

00:46:46.820 And somewhere through the line, you know, they had that push button where you throw the emergency stop.

00:46:52.420 And so this was in the elevator?

00:46:54.000 In the elevator.

00:46:54.320 In the elevator.

00:46:55.320 So she, were you in the elevator and she got on or was she?

00:46:58.520 I was in the elevator.

00:46:59.300 She gets on.

00:47:00.100 I see.

00:47:00.660 I see.

00:47:01.000 And there was just the two of you?

00:47:02.320 Just the two of us.

00:47:03.940 Uh-huh.

00:47:04.440 Okay.

00:47:04.940 Okay.

00:47:05.400 Okay.

00:47:05.680 Okay.

00:47:05.720 So, uh, emergency stop gets hit.

00:47:08.440 Um, she starts screaming. 0.99

00:47:13.000 And I just wanted her to stop screaming. 0.99

00:47:15.020 So I don't know how to stop that other than just hitting.

00:47:18.240 So, um, hit her until she stopped screaming. 0.56

00:47:22.720 Get up. 0.98

00:47:23.660 And, uh, I remember trying to, uh, to climb the damn wall of the elevator to try to get out of the emergency exit. 0.89

00:47:29.760 I was, you know.

00:47:30.660 So was the elevator stopped at this point?

00:47:32.420 It was.

00:47:32.520 Because of the emergency was hit?

00:47:33.840 Um, so I, I don't know how long I was in there, but, uh, I ended up starting the elevator back.

00:47:40.800 Doors open and there's a crowd outside.

00:47:43.140 And, um, this guy grabs me out.

00:47:45.000 One of the, uh, nurses' attendants grabs me by the arm. 0.99

00:47:49.100 And I ended up knocking the hell out of him.

00:47:51.420 Hmm.

00:47:52.000 How big were you?

00:47:53.180 I was a big kid.

00:47:54.180 You were a big kid.

00:47:55.060 Okay.

00:47:55.300 15, I was a big kid.

00:47:56.260 I see.

00:47:56.660 I see.

00:47:56.980 I'll give you an idea of size.

00:47:58.400 When I was, uh, in grade school, I started varsity football.

00:48:02.100 Um, so I was, like, third, fourth grade, I played varsity.

00:48:05.620 So I was a big kid.

00:48:06.380 Oh, right, right, right.

00:48:07.440 Right.

00:48:07.700 And, um, so I took off on, took off on the run, made it back to the house.

00:48:11.840 Uh, hid the clothes that had blood on them.

00:48:15.200 About, uh, about an hour and a half later, the Kentucky State Police, they pull up.

00:48:18.740 Uh, and, uh, I was sitting around the porch, and they, they knew immediately.

00:48:23.040 I mean, they, they knew where to go, because I was known in the, in the neighborhood.

00:48:26.840 And, uh, take me in.

00:48:30.380 And I was, uh, I think I was six months.

00:48:34.220 They didn't have a, uh, I said juvenile detention.

00:48:36.480 They didn't have juvenile detention.

00:48:37.580 So I was six months in a cell, just away from the adults.

00:48:40.980 That's what the end of the county.

00:48:42.400 Uh, the judge at the end, we went to trial.

00:48:44.640 I told the judge, yeah, I assaulted her. 0.99

00:48:46.440 Uh, the judge found me guilty.

00:48:47.960 And, uh, sentenced me to a psychological evaluation.

00:48:51.400 Went to the evaluation in Louisville, Kentucky.

00:48:53.460 I was, uh, at the hospital there for about six weeks.

00:48:56.380 Uh, cut me loose.

00:48:57.500 I don't know what the prognosis was, but they wanted me to have, uh, counseling after that, of course.

00:49:01.780 There was never any counseling.

00:49:03.540 There wasn't?

00:49:04.220 There wasn't.

00:49:04.700 Well, why not?

00:49:05.900 Do you know?

00:49:06.280 My mom didn't think I needed it.

00:49:08.020 And it wasn't mandatory?

00:49:09.680 It was not.

00:49:11.660 Hmm.

00:49:12.320 Okay.

00:49:13.040 Okay.

00:49:13.920 Well, that seems like a mistake.

00:49:15.340 It does seem like a mistake.

00:49:17.040 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:49:18.300 Yeah.

00:49:18.620 Yeah.

00:49:18.940 Do you know what happened to the woman?

00:49:21.460 Yeah, she was in the hospital for, uh, I think four or five days.

00:49:25.660 Um, she, she testified at trial as well.

00:49:29.040 And, uh, we didn't have a jury.

00:49:30.440 It was just judge deciding everything.

00:49:32.680 And, um, from there it was, it was a very small town.

00:49:36.600 And, uh, she used to, uh, she knew where I lived and everything.

00:49:41.200 She used to drive by the house. 0.57

00:49:44.040 And she, so she was no longer afraid of you at that point, do you think?

00:49:47.340 Or?

00:49:47.720 I don't, doctor, I don't know what, I don't know what that was.

00:49:51.940 But, uh, you know, if I was out someplace, she would, uh, I guess it was just to show

00:49:57.460 her to herself that she wasn't scared.

00:49:59.380 Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:50:00.120 Go up for me.

00:50:00.400 But she would, uh, she would walk up to me and just stand in front of me and look at 1.00

00:50:04.020 me, not say anything.

00:50:05.840 And, uh, those types of episodes were kind of common like that.

00:50:10.180 Hmm.

00:50:10.880 And what happened, what sort of emotional reaction did you have when she did that?

00:50:16.680 I would run.

00:50:18.760 You would run?

00:50:19.840 Yeah.

00:50:20.920 Try to get away, run.

00:50:22.380 Now, at that point, were you remorseful for what had happened in the hospital?

00:50:27.840 Oh, yeah.

00:50:28.600 You were?

00:50:29.420 Oh, yeah.

00:50:30.940 Yeah.

00:50:31.480 Did you ever apologize to her?

00:50:33.560 I apologized at court.

00:50:34.880 I was, uh, I never said anything to her after that.

00:50:40.780 But in court?

00:50:41.860 In court.

00:50:42.420 And I, I, that's one of the regrets I have.

00:50:44.740 I wish I would have been able to apologize.

00:50:47.200 Right.

00:50:48.220 What would have you said?

00:50:51.160 I'm sorry.

00:50:54.020 All right.

00:50:54.540 So you were in the juvenile, in the cell for six, about six months?

00:50:58.980 Or how long did they keep you in there?

00:51:00.240 Six months.

00:51:01.020 Okay.

00:51:01.440 And what did that, what was the consequence of that for you, of, of, of, of the assault,

00:51:07.640 the trial, and then the incarceration?

00:51:10.340 What, how did that change you?

00:51:12.600 Well, I became a pariah in a small county.

00:51:16.100 So I became a pariah.

00:51:16.840 Right.

00:51:17.060 Because people knew who you were.

00:51:18.340 Yeah.

00:51:18.480 Everyone knew who I was.

00:51:19.580 I was, uh, right.

00:51:20.720 So when I come back out, I'm, uh, the first high school I try to go to, to the, uh, the

00:51:26.460 kids prevent me from coming.

00:51:29.000 They actually line up outside at the, at the, at the high school.

00:51:32.220 Oh, yeah.

00:51:32.640 I come in here.

00:51:33.940 The second high school, the principal, my mom takes me in there.

00:51:36.560 Same county?

00:51:37.400 Same county.

00:51:38.500 Second high school, the principal tells my mom that my sister is allowed, but I'm not.

00:51:42.280 And, uh, I looked at my mom.

00:51:44.420 I was like, hey, let me go to this place called Dills Combs.

00:51:46.500 It was way out in the county.

00:51:48.000 And, uh, she wanted to fight it.

00:51:50.440 And I was like, no, I don't want to fight.

00:51:51.580 I just want to, let me, let me just go there.

00:51:55.340 So, uh, she takes me there and they allow me there.

00:51:59.920 Mm-hmm.

00:52:00.320 And, uh, I was a junior at that point.

00:52:03.860 And they were, uh, it was like home to me.

00:52:07.480 Mm-hmm.

00:52:07.760 They, they.

00:52:08.200 Why'd they allow you, do you think?

00:52:10.120 I don't know.

00:52:11.220 I don't know.

00:52:11.720 Well.

00:52:11.900 The principal was open arms.

00:52:13.140 Well, and you're dissed, somewhat dissed, too, right?

00:52:15.480 So, so you're, it's, there's a bit of a arm's length relationship there.

00:52:19.060 So that was a good place.

00:52:20.040 It was.

00:52:20.400 I excelled there.

00:52:21.280 Absolutely excelled.

00:52:23.060 So became, uh, head of the academic team, head of the drama department, head of my trial.

00:52:28.360 I was one of the top, uh, academic students in the state.

00:52:31.300 I ended up winning, uh, uh, for theater competition.

00:52:34.580 I won best actor and actress in 89 for, uh, for the state.

00:52:39.120 Uh, did extremely well.

00:52:40.360 And that's, that's, but what happens is, is, uh, when I get there, that's, and I, I say

00:52:46.660 this pretty consistently, uh, when I'm talking to people, that's the first real person that

00:52:50.980 I met that was a good person.

00:52:52.320 This woman named Carol Combs was an English teacher. 0.71

00:52:56.640 I walk in and the way she tells it, she says, I heard this voice and I wanted you on stage.

00:53:02.000 And she looks at me, she's like, Hey, have you ever been on stage?

00:53:04.060 And I was like, well, I'd like to be on, you know, academic team, quick recall type stuff.

00:53:08.100 Yeah.

00:53:08.220 And, uh, the deal was if I did theater for her, that she would let me be in academics and

00:53:13.720 I ended up heading both of those.

00:53:15.520 So what do you think it was about you that she was positively predisposed to?

00:53:23.000 Guess.

00:53:26.900 I think she saw somebody that was, uh, that was broken and didn't need to be.

00:53:34.940 And you think she saw that?

00:53:36.940 Yeah.

00:53:38.400 Yeah.

00:53:38.780 She, uh, we'd get out of school.

00:53:44.420 There was a convenience store down at the bottom of the hill and I would have to, uh, I'd have

00:53:49.180 to wait there four or five hours before my mom would come in to get me. 0.71

00:53:54.480 So, uh, Carol started to see that.

00:53:57.920 How far away was your mom at that time?

00:53:59.680 How far away did you live?

00:54:00.860 Uh, 10, 15 miles.

00:54:02.420 Okay.

00:54:02.760 So there was no reason for a four or five hour delay.

00:54:05.660 No, no, there wasn't.

00:54:06.540 And, uh, uh, Carol started to see that after a few weeks.

00:54:09.840 So she started to, uh, pick me up, take me to the house.

00:54:13.920 So she became this like surrogate mother to me, you know, and, uh, most of my time for

00:54:21.740 that two years was spent with, with her, you know, so I did really well and then not.

00:54:29.440 Okay.

00:54:31.120 Okay.

00:54:31.540 Well, that's okay.

00:54:32.500 So that's, that's curious, hey, because what happens is that you get a second chance, but

00:54:38.900 this time you get aligned with someone who's older, who is a surrogate mother, who actually

00:54:42.660 opens genuine doors for you, who encourages you.

00:54:45.840 She notices things about you that you can do that are genuine, right?

00:54:50.780 She opened some doors for you and you actually start to have some success.

00:54:53.820 And obviously it seems to me that you were pretty happy about that.

00:54:58.340 Oh yeah.

00:54:58.920 Okay.

00:54:59.520 So then now you're on, now you could be on a good track, right?

00:55:03.160 Hypothetically, because you also said you were winning awards and, and you also indicated

00:55:07.260 that you were accepted.

00:55:08.500 Where did you go to college or university?

00:55:10.320 University of Kentucky.

00:55:11.600 Okay.

00:55:11.980 Okay.

00:55:12.280 So you're going to a decent university and you're taking something apparently that you'd

00:55:16.940 like to take.

00:55:17.580 You said English and drama.

00:55:19.080 Right.

00:55:19.300 And you, you would steal books to read them and you obviously had some academic inclination

00:55:23.600 and some dramatic talent.

00:55:24.820 So, you know, in some ways it looks like, well, you could have a life.

00:55:28.820 Right.

00:55:29.200 Okay.

00:55:29.460 So, so you graduate from high school and, or what, so what, what goes wrong?

00:55:35.340 Well, what goes wrong is I had, I got my first girlfriend.

00:55:41.640 And so I was, I was 19 when I met Christy and fell over, head over hills with a girlfriend.

00:55:49.220 You know, finally had a girlfriend.

00:55:50.240 High school?

00:55:50.900 High school.

00:55:51.480 Well, I was, I was out of high school and a freshman.

00:55:54.740 I see.

00:55:55.320 I see.

00:55:55.580 So you're at the University of Kentucky.

00:55:57.160 Right.

00:55:57.340 Well, I'm at a, I'm at a community college first about to transfer out.

00:56:00.780 I see.

00:56:01.160 How long were you at the community college?

00:56:03.240 Year and a half, two years.

00:56:04.500 And how was that for you?

00:56:06.120 It was okay.

00:56:06.660 It was, it was not as great as the, as the high school experience, but it was okay.

00:56:11.800 Okay.

00:56:12.160 Okay.

00:56:12.380 So, and you get a girlfriend.

00:56:13.700 Get a girlfriend. 0.80

00:56:14.660 And now coming out of high school, so coming out of high school.

00:56:19.260 Why no girlfriend before that?

00:56:21.040 You're like, you're doing all right at school.

00:56:22.720 You're doing all right at the drama side.

00:56:24.840 Hypothetically, you might've been able to be, you know, be attractive to a girl.

00:56:29.100 Why not?

00:56:29.800 Why not before that, do you think?

00:56:33.040 I think it was the history of the elevator.

00:56:35.220 I think it was.

00:56:36.300 It was, it was my view of not deserving a girlfriend because of that.

00:56:41.320 And just scared to ask.

00:56:44.160 Yeah.

00:56:44.640 Okay.

00:56:45.100 Yeah.

00:56:45.340 Well, fair enough.

00:56:46.500 Fair enough.

00:56:47.820 So what happens is, is coming out of high school, I had, I had some scholarships for, for drama, debate, things like that.

00:56:54.040 Turned those down.

00:56:55.200 And because we had been talking to this girl, so wanted to stick around.

00:57:00.580 I see.

00:57:01.640 So you would be talking to her at the end of high school?

00:57:04.180 Right.

00:57:04.760 Right.

00:57:05.140 Right.

00:57:05.280 So you, so you don't take full advantage of the scholarships and so forth that are offered because you, you now have the interest in this girl.

00:57:13.200 Okay.

00:57:14.120 Now, the, the one I did take interest in, I started a community college.

00:57:18.340 We were doing a show called House Divided.

00:57:22.740 It was written by the head of San Jose State's theater department.

00:57:27.100 And he flies in, the professor at the community college, he knew him.

00:57:31.120 So he flies in to see the production and sees me on stage.

00:57:35.300 And he's like, hey, full ride scholarship.

00:57:37.260 Do you want to take that?

00:57:38.120 I was like, yeah, I want to take that.

00:57:39.480 And that was for the University of Kentucky?

00:57:41.240 That was for, no, that was for San Jose State.

00:57:42.840 That was for San Jose State.

00:57:43.940 So they were going to give you a full scholarship?

00:57:45.520 Full ride on everything.

00:57:46.420 Wow.

00:57:46.800 Okay.

00:57:47.080 So I was like, absolutely, we'll take that.

00:57:48.500 He's like, I'll be back in a few weeks.

00:57:49.740 We'll talk about it.

00:57:50.320 I was like, okay.

00:57:51.380 So he leaves, comes back a few weeks later, flies in. 0.60

00:57:56.360 I'm outside shooting basketball with some of the boys in the neighborhood.

00:57:59.820 And he pulls up.

00:58:01.280 And I walk up to his car and I'm like, I'll walk in.

00:58:04.860 They introduce you.

00:58:05.380 And he's like, I got it.

00:58:06.280 So he walks in the house.

00:58:07.980 He's in there about 15 minutes, walks out, quiet as a sheet, leaves.

00:58:13.760 Scholarship dies.

00:58:14.940 Never hear from him again.

00:58:16.840 And a few weeks later, I find out what had happened was, is he gets in there.

00:58:20.980 My mom pulls a knife on him, threatens to kill him.

00:58:23.660 You're not going to steal my son from me. 0.87

00:58:25.820 And he took that to heart.

00:58:28.380 Oh, oh, wow.

00:58:29.980 And when that happened, I kind of took that to heart, too.

00:58:32.860 Okay.

00:58:33.260 So what does that mean that you took that to heart?

00:58:35.360 I, is it okay to cuss?

00:58:38.860 Hey, man, have that.

00:58:40.420 I was like, you know, I'm not leaving this place.

00:58:43.600 I'll just stay here.

00:58:44.760 And I see.

00:58:45.720 So that's sort of a reaction that's, is that, is that the same reaction just out of curiosity

00:58:52.180 that happened to you in the elevator?

00:58:55.580 Yeah.

00:58:56.480 Yeah.

00:58:57.140 Yeah.

00:58:57.480 Yeah.

00:58:57.920 Okay.

00:58:58.400 So, yeah, because that's an emergence of something like, you know, and you can understand it,

00:59:05.040 right?

00:59:05.220 Because, well, obviously what happened with your father, that was very frustrating and definitely

00:59:10.300 something that could engender both resentment and the desire for revenge.

00:59:14.480 Right.

00:59:14.640 Okay.

00:59:15.140 So now you've been working pretty hard at getting your act together.

00:59:18.180 You have this full scholarship that's on the table and your mother basically stabs you 0.63

00:59:24.040 in the heart.

00:59:24.780 Yeah.

00:59:24.980 Right.

00:59:27.520 Right. 1.00

00:59:28.460 And so the response you had, which was, fuck it, that's an understandable response. 0.98

00:59:35.880 Have you been able to determine in the intervening years what you should have done instead? 0.99

00:59:41.680 Yeah.

00:59:42.240 Okay.

00:59:42.640 What should have you done?

00:59:43.340 I should have called this director up and said, hey, you know, Edward, I'm coming.

00:59:47.960 Let's do this.

00:59:48.740 Don't worry about that.

00:59:49.400 I apologize about my mom.

00:59:50.640 I want to take this opportunity.

00:59:52.080 That's what I should have done.

00:59:53.440 Okay.

00:59:53.920 But I didn't.

00:59:54.120 Okay.

00:59:54.980 Why not?

00:59:57.160 Do you think?

00:59:58.760 I mean, that response you had, that's a response of anger, right?

01:00:02.860 Right.

01:00:03.020 And it's also, it's a response that basically says something like, instead of moving forward,

01:00:08.880 I'm going to burn things to the ground.

01:00:11.040 It might be me. 0.92

01:00:11.900 It might be, well, God only knows what you're going to burn to the ground.

01:00:14.700 But it's so interesting, eh?

01:00:16.200 Because you had things set up.

01:00:17.860 Right.

01:00:18.060 And I mean, your mother definitely did her part to trip you up. 0.96

01:00:21.620 No doubt about that.

01:00:22.620 But why do you think that you succumb to the temptation of saying to hell with it instead of taking this other pathway?

01:00:31.700 Any idea?

01:00:32.900 Yeah.

01:00:33.200 It's a scary prospect, right?

01:00:35.080 Oh, yeah.

01:00:36.160 I'm comfortable where I am, committing crime and everything else.

01:00:38.880 But that fear of the unknown, of actually doing a good thing, of taking a step into something I've never done before.

01:00:47.260 Yeah, I've acted.

01:00:47.980 Yeah, absolutely.

01:00:49.120 But going off into some lost land out in California someplace where you don't know if you're going to succeed.

01:00:55.840 Yeah, yeah.

01:00:56.460 Well, and you would have had to go alone, too.

01:00:58.040 Yeah, yeah.

01:00:58.800 You know, and that is a daunting proposition.

01:01:01.120 Yeah.

01:01:01.420 But, you know, on the other hand, you know, you could have imagined thinking, oh, my God, I get to leave.

01:01:07.600 Thank God it's what I've been praying for forever.

01:01:09.860 I've been, you know, maybe part of that, too, is like your situation in many ways was pretty desperate.

01:01:16.760 And you did clamber your way out of it.

01:01:19.080 But you could also imagine, conceivably, that you were concerned that you would take the stellar opportunity and it would turn out to be, you know, to dissolve into dust and to burn to the ground.

01:01:29.020 And so that's people, I know people whose hopes have been dashed repeatedly.

01:01:34.100 They start to get afraid of hope itself, you know, because they've put themselves on the line.

01:01:40.320 They put themselves on the line and being throttled as a consequence of it.

01:01:43.880 But at some point, it's easy to say, I'll never do that again.

01:01:47.240 It's not helpful, though, because the alternative is, well, let's find out what the alternative is.

01:01:51.660 Okay, so you said to hell with it.

01:01:53.260 All right.

01:01:53.620 So now you're not going off on scholarship.

01:01:56.380 All right.

01:01:56.680 So what happens?

01:01:57.680 Well, what happens then is I dive kind of deep into some criminal activity.

01:02:03.000 I was...

01:02:03.780 And right away?

01:02:05.060 No.

01:02:05.700 Okay.

01:02:05.940 Were you engaging in criminal activity when you were going to the high school where you were doing well?

01:02:10.100 No, I wasn't.

01:02:10.800 I wasn't.

01:02:11.540 Okay.

01:02:11.840 So you'd put that on the back burner at all?

01:02:14.360 Were you or did you?

01:02:14.940 No.

01:02:15.320 No.

01:02:15.500 Those two years, I was busy with theater, with dramatics.

01:02:19.080 I would go to school at 8 o'clock in the morning every single day.

01:02:22.560 I'd go to school every day.

01:02:23.980 And I wouldn't come home sometimes until 8 or 9 at night.

01:02:26.600 I didn't have time to do it.

01:02:27.460 Okay.

01:02:27.780 Okay.

01:02:28.120 Okay.

01:02:28.420 So the other thing we can draw from that is the conclusion that you had something better to do.

01:02:33.300 I did.

01:02:34.080 Right.

01:02:34.420 Right.

01:02:34.640 Well, you know, one of the things that has to happen for people to say, stop drinking.

01:02:40.040 Say, I find something better to do.

01:02:41.300 You can't just stop drinking.

01:02:42.740 Right.

01:02:43.000 Or any form of misbehavior.

01:02:44.860 You actually have to have something better to do.

01:02:46.620 And you had something better to do at the school.

01:02:48.340 Yeah.

01:02:48.560 And then you had an offer, the scholarship offer, that would have given you something better to do, but you didn't take it.

01:02:53.460 Now, your mother put that...

01:02:54.960 It's a funny thing, you know, because you might ask yourself, like, did she put a knife in your heart or a stumbling block in your path that you then stumbled over?

01:03:03.120 Right.

01:03:03.420 Right.

01:03:03.940 Because obviously, like, she bears responsibility for pulling a knife on the person who was offering you this great gift.

01:03:09.600 But, you know, the mystery there, too, is why didn't you...

01:03:13.620 Christ, you could have gone to San Jose, like, to the guy's office and said, look, you know, I get it.

01:03:18.180 You're terrified.

01:03:19.280 I'll do anything to come here, right?

01:03:21.260 I'll put my mother behind me.

01:03:23.020 She's not a real danger.

01:03:24.600 You know, give me a shot for four months and see how it goes.

01:03:27.900 Right.

01:03:28.060 You know, I mean, that would have been a sophisticated response, and you would have had to do it alone, and so it's unlikely.

01:03:33.300 But you could also see that it wouldn't have been impossible, right?

01:03:36.360 And so you had this opportunity instead.

01:03:39.600 All right, you've got to be angry at this point, I would think, you know.

01:03:42.600 Oh, yeah.

01:03:43.160 Okay, okay.

01:03:43.880 Oh, yeah.

01:03:44.000 Yeah, right, right, right.

01:03:45.400 And did you ever have it out with your mother about this?

01:03:48.160 I did, but that type of having it out is, well, it was basically yelling.

01:03:57.180 I don't yell, but, you know, this, hey, angry discussion.

01:04:02.880 And then, you know, two weeks later, everything is kind of okay.

01:04:06.200 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:04:07.580 Yeah, well, I mean, you'd seen repeated patterns of misbehavior characterizing her life, 0.61

01:04:12.280 and I can't imagine that you thought that you would think that, you know,

01:04:16.380 it would be possible really to sort something like that out so there would actually be change.

01:04:21.540 Okay, so now you lack the future you could have had,

01:04:25.400 but you also have an excuse because something's been taken away from you, right?

01:04:29.840 Right, so now you have a justification for, okay, so now what starts to happen?

01:04:34.120 First thing I do is steal someone's identity I used to go to school with.

01:04:38.980 Wallet?

01:04:39.420 No, I actually, I walked into the DMV, found out what it took to get a replacement driver's license,

01:04:47.620 noticed the way that they kept records at the DMV,

01:04:50.760 then proceeded to get enough documents to convince them that I was him to get them.

01:04:56.280 Jeez, that's elaborate.

01:04:57.460 Okay, how do you come up with that idea?

01:05:00.180 That's a good question.

01:05:01.520 That's an elaborate plan, essentially.

01:05:04.480 Yeah, so what happens is I was actually getting my replacement driver's license.

01:05:10.460 Walked in there and noticed that the way they kept records on the DMV,

01:05:15.740 it was all paper at that point in time.

01:05:17.080 And I was like, well, hell, they're not even putting pictures to the driver's license.

01:05:21.860 So I was wanting, of all things, I was wanting a Sega Genesis at that point in time and didn't have one.

01:05:28.700 And at the same time, I was like, well, you know, I could probably set up a bank account and start running checks

01:05:33.680 if I had somebody else's ID as well, all right?

01:05:37.940 Okay, okay.

01:05:38.740 So you have a goal in mind.

01:05:39.840 You want this video game.

01:05:41.280 Now you're plotting ways that you could—

01:05:43.080 How to do it.

01:05:43.660 How to do it.

01:05:44.600 So I ended up—

01:05:45.620 So why not, like, get a job?

01:05:47.220 Because obviously you've got enough discipline at this point to work, at least in principle,

01:05:51.040 because you've been working at school.

01:05:52.920 Is it because you're, like, is it because you're angry?

01:05:55.220 Like, why not?

01:05:56.560 I had a—later on, I ended up getting a job.

01:05:58.960 I had a—I was a manager at a Domino's Pizza for a while.

01:06:01.660 Okay, well, that—

01:06:02.340 But I broke the law from inside the pizza place, too.

01:06:06.060 Right, okay.

01:06:06.740 So what—so again, what the—was it fundamentally your anger?

01:06:10.980 What's motivating you at this point?

01:06:12.480 Because, like—

01:06:12.940 The ability to do it.

01:06:15.120 Okay, so is that when that pride in being able to do it?

01:06:17.860 Yeah, yeah.

01:06:19.620 Yeah, so I was—

01:06:20.160 Okay, okay.

01:06:20.720 No, I didn't—it's not that I needed money.

01:06:22.520 Yeah.

01:06:22.880 I didn't.

01:06:23.340 I was—when I was working at Domino's, I did all right as a manager.

01:06:26.300 Yeah, yeah.

01:06:26.980 All right?

01:06:28.220 East Trinketuggy, no one has a lot of money anyway, so everyone's in the same boat as it is.

01:06:31.920 Right, right.

01:06:32.820 But it's—

01:06:34.220 So even if you have, like, a reasonable stream of income that's small, you're doing okay comparatively.

01:06:39.140 Yeah, you're doing okay.

01:06:39.880 Yeah, yeah.

01:06:40.500 Because most people there aren't working.

01:06:42.140 Right, right, right.

01:06:42.720 Most are just making ends meet.

01:06:44.020 Right.

01:06:44.220 Me, it was—I think it boils down to—so when my mom meets my stepdad, Jimmy, we—and I actually said this to my sister at the time.

01:06:56.180 We ended up—he went broke, and we ended up living in a trailer, 40-foot business trailer, for about 18 months.

01:07:03.440 And I told my sister, I was like, I'll never live like this again.

01:07:07.300 And so at that point, you know, when I started working at Domino's, it's like—it's like—it was always like a puzzle to me.

01:07:14.280 How can I get around these systems?

01:07:16.680 So at that point, it was like, you know, you're getting all these orders, and I'm like, well, I wonder if I could pocket some money, and nobody know about it.

01:07:23.580 Well, it turns out you can.

01:07:25.360 So it was like, how much can you steal?

01:07:27.460 Well, I could steal another $400 or $500 a week, maybe more than that.

01:07:30.900 And it keeps going to that point, doesn't even want to find out about it.

01:07:33.640 Right, okay, so there's a materialist motivation to some degree.

01:07:36.680 You don't want to live in that kind of poverty and that humiliation.

01:07:40.700 And ego.

01:07:40.860 There's things—and ego.

01:07:42.500 Yeah, yeah, okay, ego in what way?

01:07:45.520 I'm better at it than anybody else.

01:07:47.260 I can do it and get away with it.

01:07:48.520 I'm better than anybody else.

01:07:48.920 Yeah, yeah, okay, so that's when that starts to come up.

01:07:51.620 Right, right.

01:07:52.360 Well, the thing is, too, you already knew that you were smart.

01:07:55.260 Right.

01:07:55.640 And you had been rewarded for that at school, and you were successful.

01:07:58.660 So you had reason to think that you could probably get away with it.

01:08:02.780 Right, right, right.

01:08:03.920 And that pops up a lot in my history.

01:08:06.040 Yeah, yes, I imagine, I imagine.

01:08:08.680 Okay, so that's where it has its real genesis.

01:08:10.720 Right.

01:08:11.800 Right.

01:08:12.720 So still this kid's identity turns out.

01:08:17.000 So what happens is I end up—I leave that day, call the DMV, hey, what do I need to do to get a replacement driver's license?

01:08:25.300 I don't have any of these identity documents.

01:08:26.940 And they tell me, well, you can get some school records, and you'll need to go to the Social Security Administration and get an affidavit of identity printed out by them, things like that.

01:08:34.540 So I started at the school, the Board of Education.

01:08:37.660 I walked in, told them I was this guy, and got his school records from there that allowed me to—

01:08:43.000 And they didn't ask for ID.

01:08:44.100 They did not.

01:08:44.760 I see.

01:08:45.620 As long as I had a social, that was fine.

01:08:48.860 So I ended up—back then, you didn't have caller ID.

01:08:51.200 That was widely distributed.

01:08:52.340 So I ended up calling, acting like the Social Security Administration, telling him, hey, you know, we're the Social Security Administration.

01:08:58.980 We've got some sort of anomaly with your Social Security number.

01:09:01.700 Could you verify your number with us?

01:09:03.340 He fell for that and gave me the social.

01:09:05.020 That allowed me to walk into the Board of Education.

01:09:06.740 I see, I see, I see.

01:09:08.260 Right.

01:09:08.480 So now you're starting to be able to build an identity outside the system.

01:09:11.440 Right.

01:09:11.580 Right.

01:09:11.700 That's a big deal.

01:09:12.800 Right.

01:09:12.960 That's a big threshold to cross.

01:09:14.940 And that opens up the possibility of doing that, like, at a large scale right away.

01:09:18.580 Exactly.

01:09:18.980 Right.

01:09:19.240 And you also have the motivation.

01:09:20.700 You said ego.

01:09:21.540 You also had the motivation, what, to, well, to not live in poverty and to get some of the things that you wanted.

01:09:28.480 But, and also that, what would you say, the dawning conviction that you were smart enough to get away with it.

01:09:34.040 Okay.

01:09:34.500 Okay.

01:09:34.880 All right.

01:09:35.280 So that's how that starts to develop.

01:09:36.800 All right.

01:09:37.080 So get the driver's license, set up a couple of bank accounts, get the checks in from the bank accounts.

01:09:43.120 Use that to do cold checks at every single Walmart that I could find in that radius in each drink.

01:09:49.240 Okay.

01:09:49.460 Define that.

01:09:50.080 Cold checks.

01:09:50.560 What are you doing exactly?

01:09:51.540 You go in and you buy goods, write a bad check for it, and walk out with the product.

01:09:55.180 Okay.

01:09:55.380 And why would they accept the check?

01:09:56.920 Because back then they used to.

01:09:58.800 So they wouldn't be able to verify how much money was in the account against the check.

01:10:03.020 So they'd take your word for it.

01:10:04.640 Right.

01:10:04.960 Because most of the time that would work and they could make a sale.

01:10:07.540 As long as the check didn't exceed a certain amount, they would not verify funds on the account.

01:10:12.420 So I think it was like $250, $300, something like that.

01:10:14.740 Oh, yeah.

01:10:15.080 Okay.

01:10:15.480 All right.

01:10:16.060 So enough to get going.

01:10:17.860 Right.

01:10:17.960 So I did that and come to find out what had happened was is when I go in to get the driver's license, at that point, they had changed security.

01:10:27.640 So at that point, they'd take your snapshot and they attach it to the file that has the DL information on it.

01:10:34.580 Oh, yeah.

01:10:34.980 Physically.

01:10:35.900 So that last, and that did not stop me.

01:10:38.840 I just held with it.

01:10:40.780 Maybe I'll get away with it.

01:10:41.880 And start running the checks.

01:10:44.000 They bring the kid in.

01:10:45.440 Of course, they get a warrant for the kid.

01:10:46.920 Right.

01:10:47.420 Go to serve the warrant.

01:10:48.520 The kid's like, that's not me.

01:10:49.740 That's Brett Johnson.

01:10:51.360 So they get a warrant.

01:10:51.760 Oh, the picture.

01:10:52.500 Yeah.

01:10:52.880 I see.

01:10:53.420 I see.

01:10:53.660 So they get a warrant on me.

01:10:55.200 Come down.

01:10:56.160 My mom finds out about it.

01:10:58.160 She gets the money up to pay off all the checks. 0.75

01:11:00.540 And I ended up on probation at that point.

01:11:02.700 So no real consequence for that action.

01:11:05.500 And that's a lot of my history, too, is I was committing a lot of crime and no real consequence.

01:11:11.880 And each time would ratchet it up another notch.

01:11:15.620 All right.

01:11:15.980 So what do you think should have happened to you at that point that would have been best for you?

01:11:21.700 You know, because really what you're telling me, I believe, is that in retrospect, the play in the system, the mercy that the system showed you even, was not in your best interest.

01:11:33.080 No.

01:11:33.240 Okay.

01:11:33.680 So what do you think should have happened that time?

01:11:36.660 Now, the first time with the assault, you got nailed.

01:11:39.980 Right.

01:11:40.280 Okay.

01:11:40.700 And then, well, actually, your life in some way straightened out after that for a reasonable amount of time.

01:11:46.400 Okay.

01:11:46.560 This time you get caught, but you get a slap on the wrist.

01:11:49.600 Right.

01:11:49.940 And so you don't think, oh, my God, I was fortunate.

01:11:53.840 I should straighten the hell out.

01:11:55.660 What do you think instead?

01:11:56.840 Well, I got away with it.

01:11:57.520 You got away with it.

01:11:57.980 There's no consequence.

01:11:59.600 Right.

01:12:00.060 So even though I got caught, I didn't want to get caught.

01:12:03.100 I didn't think I'd get caught.

01:12:04.120 But even though I did get caught, it didn't make any difference.

01:12:06.340 Right.

01:12:06.920 Right.

01:12:07.220 And you didn't care.

01:12:08.820 No, I didn't.

01:12:09.540 I didn't.

01:12:10.180 I mean, I didn't.

01:12:11.400 That was my history.

01:12:12.680 I did not care about victims.

01:12:14.140 I did not care who I was hurting.

01:12:15.240 I justified it and believed the justifications that I threw out.

01:12:19.800 You know, I'm doing it for my wife, for my stripper girlfriend, for my sister. 0.99

01:12:23.360 I believed that crap that I threw out there, too. 0.99

01:12:26.540 Right. 0.96

01:12:26.880 So, but you needed those extra reasons to justify what you're doing, the extra reasons being that you were, that there were other people that you were serving?

01:12:33.980 Yeah, I don't think so.

01:12:34.300 You don't think so?

01:12:35.520 I think I used those.

01:12:36.860 I did believe those justifications, but I don't think I needed them in order to go out and do that.

01:12:40.960 Now, what's kind of interesting with me, and I think about that a lot, when I was from the girlfriend home, if I didn't have a girlfriend in my life, I was not doing fraud.

01:12:52.400 But once I had a girlfriend in that relationship, oh, yeah, as much as I possibly could at that point.

01:12:59.560 So, there was absolutely that aspect.

01:13:01.540 And was that an ego status thing as well, do you think?

01:13:04.540 It was with my dad, and that's why I hearken back to him when I told you that he was the guy that was scared of the people that he loved leaving him.

01:13:14.540 So, I am the guy that does not want to be apart from that romantic relationship.

01:13:23.780 If I have a woman like my husband.

01:13:25.060 Okay, so why was the fraud necessary then?

01:13:27.420 Because I could stay at the house and do it and set my own hours.

01:13:32.020 Okay, so that meant, so what did that mean?

01:13:34.100 That you could be with the person more often?

01:13:35.780 Yeah.

01:13:35.840 Or do you keep an eye on them?

01:13:37.320 Yeah, I don't have to work a nine-to-five or an eight-to-four job or anything else like that.

01:13:41.680 I can sit at the house, kind of make my own hours, and I'm there around you all the time.

01:13:46.780 And is that what, now, did you, why did you want to be around the person that you were in love with all the time?

01:13:51.280 Was it to keep an eye on them, or was it because you, why was it exactly?

01:13:54.200 Pray they might leave.

01:13:55.220 For, you didn't want them to leave.

01:13:57.000 Yeah.

01:13:57.460 So, it was actually a consequence of the relationship.

01:14:00.280 Yeah.

01:14:00.400 And the value of the relationship.

01:14:03.520 Yeah.

01:14:04.320 Okay.

01:14:05.860 So, you could make a, okay, so this is interesting, though.

01:14:08.380 So, you could make a bond with the person that you were in love with.

01:14:12.300 You think that was a genuine bond.

01:14:13.920 Did you treat?

01:14:16.120 So, you'll have to tell me.

01:14:20.100 When I was in prison, and I take this to heart, I was told that if you have an addiction, that you cannot love anything else but that addiction.

01:14:30.420 Now, I view my criminal activity, especially cybercrime, as an addiction.

01:14:36.840 Now, I like to say, I like to say that I love my first wife.

01:14:40.540 I like to say that I love that, this woman named Elizabeth that was a stripper. 1.00

01:14:45.120 I like to say that.

01:14:46.260 But the truth of the matter was, is I put crime first.

01:14:49.620 Right.

01:14:49.880 But it's complicated, because you said you didn't engage in the fraudulent activity except when you had a girlfriend.

01:14:55.300 Right.

01:14:56.080 Right.

01:14:56.520 So, well, you know, unfortunately, people are complicated, right?

01:15:01.700 And you can have more than more motivation at the same time.

01:15:04.320 I mean, I guess you'd ask yourself, if push came to shove situation, so I guess, you know, one of the ways of sorting that out would be,

01:15:15.140 if you were in a situation where it was lose your girlfriend or stop committing crime, if you pick the option that left you continuing criminal activity, then obviously you love that more, almost by definition.

01:15:34.080 And so were you ever in situations like that?

01:15:36.180 Oh, yeah.

01:15:36.440 Yeah, so my first wife, I mean, Susan, it took her two to three years to find out that I was this criminal. 0.90

01:15:43.560 All right, I lied to her every single day.

01:15:45.900 And once she finds out, that's when I start the routine of I'm going to stop, I will stop, just a little while longer, I have stopped.

01:15:54.060 And then finally it got to the point that you like spending the money that's coming in, don't you?

01:15:59.660 And she leaves at that point.

01:16:01.300 You tell her that?

01:16:02.360 Yeah, I used to tell her that.

01:16:03.660 Right, right.

01:16:04.540 So you're making her complicit in some ways, right?

01:16:07.420 Yeah.

01:16:07.920 Right.

01:16:09.100 And so, okay, at that point, what's justifying the continued criminal activity?

01:16:13.820 Is it still the ego, the pride, the adventure?

01:16:17.280 Like, what the hell exactly is the thrill of it?

01:16:19.400 So at that point, that comes into this whole thing, that first question that you asked about the Internet.

01:16:28.480 All right?

01:16:29.720 Yeah.

01:16:30.040 So at that point, it's really ego-driven because I'm at the top of the food chain.

01:16:37.980 So I am the guy that everyone comes to for references, advice, how to do things, picking up deals, everything else.

01:16:46.620 And I'm basically this kind of God status.

01:16:48.640 Right, right.

01:16:49.180 So in this domain of online criminal activity, you're way the hell up on the hierarchy chain.

01:16:55.420 Right, okay.

01:16:56.080 I'm not about this stuff.

01:16:56.540 You'll see that that would have its attraction.

01:16:58.160 Right.

01:16:58.560 And that's the same attraction that mob life has for a mob boss, right?

01:17:03.820 Or in drug distribution gangs, there's definitely competition to rise up the hierarchy.

01:17:09.780 That's typical male motivation, regardless of what the hierarchy is.

01:17:13.780 You know, there's a great study of a drug distribution gang in Chicago in the projects.

01:17:17.900 And most of the low-level drug distributors were more likely to be employed gainfully than the non-drug distributing peers.

01:17:25.400 Right, they were ambitious guys, and that they tended to be ambitious within the confines of the criminal organization.

01:17:31.140 But that ambition still drove them upward, that drive for status.

01:17:34.500 Right.

01:17:34.840 Right.

01:17:35.240 So, okay.

01:17:36.320 So, all right.

01:17:37.400 So let's go back to when you got put on parole for making this false ID, and you got caught.

01:17:44.480 But now you know how to do it.

01:17:45.700 Right.

01:17:45.920 Okay, so now what happens?

01:17:47.520 And you're, what, about 20 at this point?

01:17:49.520 Yeah, I would have been probably 20, 21 at this point.

01:17:51.880 Okay, okay, so you didn't get stopped.

01:17:54.980 You got away with it for all intents and purposes. 1.00

01:17:57.880 You could think at that point, do something like, well, if the damn system is so stupid that they're not even going to call me on my misbehavior, you know, to hell with it again. 1.00

01:18:05.600 And, but you also said, you know, and then we'll go back to this. 1.00

01:18:09.640 You also said that you didn't have any remorse with regards to the victims.

01:18:14.220 And so why do you think that was?

01:18:17.300 Like, what was the justification for that?

01:18:19.340 Well, the justification for me was telling myself that, hey, I need it more than they do.

01:18:23.860 Hey, it's just his identity.

01:18:26.340 He'll recover from that, you know, without carrying the type of trouble.

01:18:29.340 Okay, so you had a realm of rationalization.

01:18:30.840 Right, right, always trying to rationalize.

01:18:31.740 Well, because I'm curious because, you know, the fact that you, you know, you spoke positively of your sister and you spoke positively to some degree of your father.

01:18:39.960 You certainly spoke positively of this woman who helped you out in high school.

01:18:43.080 You're clearly able to establish some empathic relationship with other people.

01:18:48.860 And so that would beg the question, you know, why didn't that occur?

01:18:53.000 Why didn't you extend that to the people that were being victimized by your actions?

01:18:56.420 But you just said you had a web of rationalizations that I suspect you probably built that up one piece at a time until it was very elaborate.

01:19:04.020 But same sort of thing you did with your wife when you told her that, you know, she wanted to spend the money and so she was really involved too.

01:19:10.460 And, you know, and that's always an open question.

01:19:12.340 If someone's misbehaving terribly in your household and you have some advantage to that and you fail to notice, you always have to ask yourself, it's like, well, was it, was your lack of noticing convenient?

01:19:24.040 Right.

01:19:24.420 And so, I mean, I use that against them.

01:19:26.400 I mean, yeah, I get that.

01:19:27.440 You know, if someone loves you, and Susan absolutely loved the hell out of me, and I knew that, you know, I knew I was never going to quit breaking the law, but would tell her that in order to smooth things over, would pretend that I wasn't in order to smooth things over.

01:19:44.880 And then when it pops up again, you know, I'm so sorry, I'll never do it again, blah, blah, blah, blah.

01:19:48.960 Did you feel that you were genuinely sorry at that point or was that just an act?

01:19:53.540 I mean, it's complicated.

01:19:55.660 Yeah, no doubt.

01:19:56.620 Well, complicated also by the fact that apparently you're quite a good actor.

01:20:01.000 Yeah.

01:20:01.700 So, it was, part of it, yeah, part of it, yeah, I'm sorry I did that.

01:20:07.080 Am I sorry I stole money?

01:20:09.040 No, I'm sorry that I hurt you.

01:20:11.740 Right, right.

01:20:12.480 So, you could draw on that sorrow.

01:20:14.220 Right, compartmentalize it.

01:20:15.360 Yeah, right, right, right.

01:20:16.660 And that would make it more believable, too, for you as well.

01:20:19.220 Right.

01:20:19.860 Right, right.

01:20:20.840 Okay, so now you know how to generate false IDs.

01:20:24.100 So, how does the whole internet phenomenon start to emerge?

01:20:27.660 What happens is, is I date this girl that was, I was with Christy for, I think, five years.

01:20:33.560 Your first wife? 0.93

01:20:34.560 No, no, first girlfriend.

01:20:35.780 First girlfriend.

01:20:36.660 Okay.

01:20:36.920 I was with her for five years, and she was a preacher's daughter.

01:20:40.380 Oh, yeah.

01:20:40.840 Yeah, she figures out, she finally figures out that I am not going to convert to Christianity.

01:20:46.500 I have belief problems.

01:20:48.620 So, she breaks up with me, and I ended up at that point, I'm married to my wife, Susan, within six months.

01:20:58.020 Meet her, it's this whirlwind thing of sex and romance, and we get married.

01:21:05.080 Move from Hazard, Kentucky to Lexington, and going to college, and I'm a control freak, no doubt about it.

01:21:12.920 Told her, I was like, don't worry about working, I got it.

01:21:15.060 Don't worry about cooking and cleaning, I got it.

01:21:17.260 And didn't have it.

01:21:18.380 So, I was working a 60-hour-a-week job, had an 18-hour load, all the cooking and cleaning.

01:21:24.140 No, I didn't have that at all.

01:21:25.700 Well, what ended was the job, and as soon as the job ends, I start going back into fraud again.

01:21:31.780 Okay, so when you went to Lexington, to begin with, you stopped that for a bit.

01:21:35.120 I did.

01:21:35.760 Right, okay.

01:21:36.400 Because I was working at, I was testing printer boards at Lexmark, was the job I had.

01:21:42.720 I didn't have time to break the law.

01:21:44.420 All right, so the job ends, and I start going into fraud.

01:21:47.580 There's a good moral in that.

01:21:49.020 There's a good moral in that.

01:21:50.000 For everyone listening and watching, it's like, you know, the devil finds, what is it, work for idle hands.

01:21:54.620 There's definitely truth in that, right?

01:21:56.500 You want to be so busy doing useful things that you don't have time for things that, you know.

01:22:00.540 Right, and I take that to heart these days.

01:22:01.940 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I bet, I bet.

01:22:04.340 All right, all right.

01:22:05.080 So, the work, how come you stopped working when you're in Lexington?

01:22:09.460 I couldn't do it.

01:22:10.180 I was, the 60 hours was from like a Friday through a Monday.

01:22:13.620 So, I would be in there 15 hours a day, and then try to go to class with a 18-hour class load the rest of the week.

01:22:22.080 So, you took on too much?

01:22:24.060 Yeah, yeah.

01:22:25.020 And was that an attempt to impress this woman?

01:22:27.840 Probably.

01:22:28.720 Probably try to make, it was more trying to make ends meet, because we didn't live on campus.

01:22:32.820 She wanted to live off campus.

01:22:33.740 Okay, so there was financial necessity there, too.

01:22:35.940 So, it was, it was.

01:22:36.820 Was she in university?

01:22:38.080 She was.

01:22:38.580 She was a music major.

01:22:40.280 I see, I see, I see.

01:22:41.180 It was a performance, that's what she was.

01:22:43.080 And were you happy to be with her?

01:22:46.240 Initially.

01:22:47.420 Uh-huh.

01:22:47.920 Yeah.

01:22:48.740 But, you know, six months, you think you've got all the things in the world in common.

01:22:53.400 Yeah.

01:22:53.540 After you're with that person for two years, you find out you've not got anything in common.

01:22:57.220 Uh-huh.

01:22:57.500 Then you're with them for another seven years on top of that.

01:23:00.360 Right, right, right.

01:23:01.680 Okay, so you, so your job, you quit?

01:23:04.960 I quit.

01:23:05.520 You quit.

01:23:05.980 And then, okay, so what happens then?

01:23:07.880 Quit the job, start in telemarketing.

01:23:11.660 Mm-hmm.

01:23:12.060 And I'm good on a phone.

01:23:14.420 Oh, yeah.

01:23:15.020 So, start with telemarketing and.

01:23:17.780 Good in what way?

01:23:19.080 In manipulating people to buy the product.

01:23:22.100 Right, so that's on, that's online, real life training for manipulation.

01:23:27.260 Right.

01:23:27.740 Right, and you already have some skills as an actor.

01:23:30.060 Yeah.

01:23:30.800 So, I'm very good at that.

01:23:31.840 Start at a, start at a cemetery.

01:23:35.040 The cemetery transitions over because there's a better position at the Shriners Hospital.

01:23:40.480 So, they had a third-party company coming in doing telemarketing for fundraising, selling circus tickets, things like that.

01:23:47.700 Did that, once that gig ended, that same company transitioned over to raising money for the Kiwanis Club.

01:23:55.800 And they were selling food baskets.

01:23:58.760 So, what I did was, is I was like, you know, I can run a Kiwanis Club myself.

01:24:04.220 So, go down, get a business license for my own charity, and start telemarketing, telling them that I'm a Kiwanis Club.

01:24:11.100 So, when you learned to sell food baskets for Kiwanis, you said, in all of that, you learned to be manipulative, let's say, or better at it.

01:24:21.700 Right.

01:24:22.200 So, what tricks did you learn, telemarketing, that then enabled you to produce the next scam?

01:24:28.960 Like, what, kind of, how much of a theory do you have of that?

01:24:32.160 I mean, you're a smart guy, you must have been thinking through the processes that you used to entice people to buy, while you were selling something that was genuine to begin with.

01:24:40.880 Right.

01:24:41.060 But you said you were good at, you said, I believe, that you were good at manipulating people.

01:24:45.900 And, you know, the line in sales, especially something like telemarketing, between selling and manipulating is, you know, it's a tricky moral line.

01:24:53.240 Right.

01:24:53.580 Right.

01:24:53.880 And so, and you can be disproportionately rewarded in a telemarketing operation if you happen to be good at it.

01:25:00.140 So, what were you teaching yourself to do while you were telemarketing?

01:25:04.120 Well, see, you've got to backtrack a little bit on that.

01:25:06.340 So, you've got to realize that when I was a kid, and this is this whole thing called social engineering.

01:25:11.260 So, as a child, I had to know what the adults were doing around me, what they were thinking, how to try to, you know, to survive that Paul Campbell routine sometimes.

01:25:21.140 Right.

01:25:21.540 So, I had to know what was going on.

01:25:23.420 That translated really well to phone work.

01:25:26.640 So, you're paying attention.

01:25:28.040 You're doing this active listening thing.

01:25:29.480 And so, the first few seconds of the call, depending on the tone, depending on the aggression of the person, how they're answering the phone, everything else like that, you know whether they're in a hurry.

01:25:40.640 You know whether they're dominant or passive.

01:25:42.880 You know exactly how to handle that call.

01:25:44.520 Do you need to come in and be aggressive?

01:25:46.120 Do you need to come in and be more passive and submissive with that call?

01:25:49.260 And did you mirror the people?

01:25:50.880 Like, if they were aggressive, what would you do in response?

01:25:53.460 If they were aggressive, so it's all predator prey.

01:25:56.340 Yeah.

01:25:56.480 Right.

01:25:56.820 You're, depending on the relationship that you're with someone, you're either predator or prey.

01:26:00.820 But it's not always that you're predator or prey.

01:26:02.880 You have to know when to make that switch.

01:26:04.440 If you're making that switch.

01:26:05.700 So, an aggressive person, you'd come in with more of a submissive type attitude until finally you're ready to take over that call.

01:26:13.400 All right?

01:26:13.720 I see.

01:26:14.360 I see.

01:26:14.780 So, you back off and look for your opportunity.

01:26:16.500 Right.

01:26:17.100 Always.

01:26:17.480 Right.

01:26:17.780 You're always gauging the person.

01:26:18.760 You're always paying attention to what they're saying, how they're saying it, the pauses that are taking place, everything else, until you finally, you've read that person enough,

01:26:26.140 and you need to do it quickly, you've read that person enough to know exactly what you need to do to trigger that cell, to do that manipulation, to get them to do what you want them to do.

01:26:34.700 And that's exactly—

01:26:35.140 Right.

01:26:35.360 And was that a game?

01:26:36.720 Yeah, that's a game.

01:26:37.940 Yeah.

01:26:38.140 But that's the exact same thing that translates extremely well when we're talking about online crime.

01:26:44.320 Right, right.

01:26:45.060 Okay?

01:26:45.740 So, all these—

01:26:47.140 Yeah, well, it's interesting, too, because telemarketing is sort of—it's the gateway to virtual, right?

01:26:51.700 Yeah.

01:26:51.860 Because you're just on a phone.

01:26:52.860 You're not actually there in person.

01:26:54.420 So, you're half virtual on the phone.

01:26:56.580 Right.

01:26:57.160 Right.

01:26:57.460 So, you're learning all sorts of tricks.

01:26:59.660 Right, right.

01:27:00.420 And you get good at it.

01:27:01.240 How long do you do that?

01:27:02.140 I did that for—married in 94, so probably through 97, 98.

01:27:10.300 Oh, yeah, so four years.

01:27:11.520 Yeah.

01:27:11.900 Right.

01:27:12.200 How many hours a week?

01:27:14.400 30, 40 hours a week.

01:27:15.720 Okay, okay.

01:27:16.300 So, you definitely develop expertise in this.

01:27:17.960 How long till you branch off with your own false charity?

01:27:20.860 So, that would have been two and a half years in.

01:27:24.840 Okay, so you—okay.

01:27:26.120 And how long did you run the false Kiwanis organization?

01:27:28.900 Probably eight to nine months.

01:27:31.140 Okay.

01:27:31.380 And what happens is I was doing some telemarketing, and I was a one-man operation.

01:27:35.680 So, they would—I did not have a drop address for them to send checks for cash.

01:27:40.460 I would actually go around and pick it up.

01:27:42.900 Oh, yeah.

01:27:43.520 It seems like a bad idea.

01:27:44.760 Yeah, it's a horrible idea.

01:27:45.680 Yeah.

01:27:46.080 So, went to pick up checks, walked up to this guy's door.

01:27:48.740 He walks outside on his porch.

01:27:50.720 He's like, you are not with the Kiwanis Club.

01:27:53.020 I was like, what are you talking about?

01:27:54.060 He's like, I'm a member of the Kiwanis Club, and law enforcement's on their way.

01:27:57.600 Oh.

01:27:57.920 So, I get in the car, take off, get caught, serve three months in a county jail.

01:28:04.680 All right.

01:28:04.940 And how much—what was the dollar amount of fraud that you'd managed at that point?

01:28:08.980 I was only charged with maybe $6,000, $7,000.

01:28:11.560 Oh, okay.

01:28:12.080 Just the amount of checks that I had on hand.

01:28:14.100 I see.

01:28:14.500 And what do you suppose it was in total at that point?

01:28:16.680 Any idea?

01:28:17.700 For that—it wasn't much.

01:28:19.160 30, 20, 30—

01:28:20.260 Okay, okay.

01:28:20.900 Not much.

01:28:21.500 Okay.

01:28:21.720 And were you still working as an actual telemarketer at the same time?

01:28:24.400 I was not.

01:28:25.420 You were not.

01:28:25.960 So, this was like your full-time job now.

01:28:28.000 And were you doing that like eight hours a day, or how much time?

01:28:31.600 Four hours a day.

01:28:32.500 Four hours a day.

01:28:33.500 So, 5 p.m. to 9 p.m.

01:28:34.920 So, that's when you find most people are at home.

01:28:36.740 Oh, right.

01:28:37.100 People are during the day—

01:28:38.060 Right.

01:28:38.260 What were you doing during the day?

01:28:40.180 Hanging out with my wife, Susan.

01:28:41.820 Oh, okay.

01:28:42.600 Okay.

01:28:42.920 Okay.

01:28:43.240 So, that's—so, you got to hang out with Susan at that time.

01:28:45.560 And take four hours off to do telemarketing.

01:28:48.060 Okay.

01:28:48.320 And then one day a week, you'd go around and pick up checks and money.

01:28:51.300 Okay.

01:28:51.740 And so, you got picked up, and you got—what was the punishment at that point?

01:28:55.840 So, I was looking at a year and a half.

01:28:58.500 Yeah.

01:28:58.860 Got a lawyer.

01:28:59.980 Did three months.

01:29:01.380 That's what I did.

01:29:02.360 Okay.

01:29:02.840 Now, that absolutely ends the telemarketing fraud bit at that point in time.

01:29:07.840 Yeah.

01:29:08.140 Okay.

01:29:08.340 So, Susan and I, we lose our—

01:29:09.740 So, what was it like to be in jail for three months?

01:29:11.920 Now, I presume you were in the general prison population at this point.

01:29:14.960 Minimum security prison?

01:29:16.340 County jail.

01:29:17.300 County jail.

01:29:17.860 Yeah.

01:29:18.420 All that was county jail.

01:29:19.140 So, in Kentucky, if you don't serve any more—if you're not sentenced to any more than a year, you do your time in a county jail system.

01:29:24.860 Okay.

01:29:25.160 And what was it like being in the jail for three months?

01:29:27.780 Interesting.

01:29:28.540 So, it's very loud.

01:29:31.140 Yeah.

01:29:31.300 You've got some violence that goes on.

01:29:34.240 So, at that county jail, it was not horrible.

01:29:38.800 You didn't have, like, a riot popping off.

01:29:40.900 You didn't have inmates trying to kill each other.

01:29:43.040 And were you good at defending yourself physically?

01:29:45.620 I mean, are you the sort of person who gets bullied in jail or not?

01:29:48.740 No, I'm not.

01:29:48.980 Do people leave you alone?

01:29:49.640 I'm not.

01:29:49.840 Do they leave you alone?

01:29:50.620 Yeah, they did.

01:29:51.260 Okay.

01:29:51.620 Why?

01:29:52.820 I was big to begin with.

01:29:53.720 Yeah?

01:29:53.900 But I was also very gregarious, smart enough that if someone needed a letter written or some advice or something, I could tell them.

01:30:02.900 Oh, yeah.

01:30:03.560 Okay.

01:30:03.860 So, you could be useful when it was useful.

01:30:05.860 And useful matters in prison.

01:30:07.520 Uh-huh.

01:30:07.900 It matters a lot.

01:30:08.920 Uh-huh.

01:30:09.260 Well, useful matters pretty much wherever you are, as it turns out.

01:30:12.500 Yeah.

01:30:12.920 Yeah.

01:30:13.280 Okay.

01:30:13.640 Okay.

01:30:13.980 So, all right.

01:30:15.940 And you were there for three months?

01:30:17.300 Three months.

01:30:17.760 Okay.

01:30:18.420 And what's your wife thinking about this? 0.99

01:30:20.180 She's crying every day.

01:30:21.860 Right.

01:30:22.120 And did she have any idea you were engaged in this sort of activity at that point?

01:30:25.500 She did know at that point.

01:30:27.100 She did.

01:30:27.860 Okay.

01:30:28.460 I don't think she, I don't think, well, I don't know what she thought.

01:30:32.200 But she certainly knew I was breaking the law when I was going around picking up checks and doing telemarketing fraud.

01:30:38.480 Okay.

01:30:38.820 She certainly knew that.

01:30:41.120 I don't.

01:30:43.360 And why did she, why did she put up with that? 0.99

01:30:45.680 Because she loved me and I manipulated her. 1.00

01:30:47.800 Yeah.

01:30:48.160 Okay.

01:30:48.520 Okay.

01:30:48.940 Okay.

01:30:49.200 That's why.

01:30:49.560 Okay.

01:30:49.900 Same.

01:30:50.320 Okay.

01:30:50.680 Right.

01:30:51.060 Right.

01:30:51.380 Right.

01:30:51.580 Again, it's that me putting criminal activity in front of the relationship.

01:30:55.540 You know, she'll, because I'm the man of the house and I'm paying all the bills, she will get accustomed to it.

01:31:02.340 Right.

01:31:02.740 Oh, yes.

01:31:03.280 Okay.

01:31:03.560 Also that.

01:31:04.320 So she becomes reliant on it as well.

01:31:06.740 Right.

01:31:07.540 Right.

01:31:08.520 Right.

01:31:09.680 Do you suppose there's a part of you that knew that if she became reliant on that, she would be less likely to get in your way?

01:31:15.020 I think so.

01:31:15.980 Yeah.

01:31:16.280 That's a rough one.

01:31:17.360 Yeah.

01:31:18.860 Yeah.

01:31:19.220 Again, I, like I said, man, I'm, yeah, I'm a control freak.

01:31:22.220 I am.

01:31:23.180 You know, I, I, I want to be the person that provides for the family.

01:31:26.900 I want to be, I want to have that position.

01:31:29.240 I believe it's my job to do that.

01:31:30.920 The problem back then is that job was fraud.

01:31:34.220 Right.

01:31:34.680 Right.

01:31:35.180 That's the problem.

01:31:36.520 Yeah.

01:31:36.900 Yeah.

01:31:37.140 Okay.

01:31:37.780 Okay.

01:31:38.000 Okay.

01:31:38.040 So you're there for three months.

01:31:39.400 You get out.

01:31:40.300 And what do you conclude from being there for three months?

01:31:42.960 I have to do it better the next time.

01:31:44.740 I conclude I should not do telemarketing fraud.

01:31:46.900 Yeah.

01:31:47.440 Okay.

01:31:47.600 That's the, that's literally the conclusion.

01:31:49.480 Yeah.

01:31:49.680 Yeah.

01:31:49.940 So I start.

01:31:50.880 A little problem generalizing there, I would say.

01:31:53.220 Yeah.

01:31:53.400 Yeah.

01:31:53.600 Yeah.

01:31:53.880 So I move over into online stuff.

01:31:56.300 Okay.

01:31:56.800 Is what I do.

01:31:57.860 And I find.

01:31:58.500 And that's when?

01:31:59.100 What year?

01:31:59.960 This would have been 96, 96.

01:32:02.240 Okay.

01:32:02.480 So that's easy, early in the online world.

01:32:05.340 Right.

01:32:05.560 So you're an early adopter of online technology.

01:32:08.280 Right.

01:32:09.020 Right.

01:32:09.940 So what I do is.

01:32:11.020 How did you learn, how did you learn to use computers?

01:32:14.000 I was always adept in that.

01:32:15.340 You were.

01:32:15.800 My dad, when, when we were in Panama City, that, one of the Christmases, this is, so my

01:32:22.260 dad, we moved to Panama City.

01:32:23.740 The only job the man could get was at a 7-Eleven as a night, midnight clerk.

01:32:30.120 And that Christmas, he gave me and Denise $70 apiece.

01:32:34.300 That's all he could afford for that.

01:32:35.560 And he surprised me.

01:32:40.060 There was this Texas Instruments.

01:32:41.740 They had a personal computer division.

01:32:43.320 They were going out of business.

01:32:44.880 So this man goes and waits two hours in line to get this TI-99-4A.

01:32:50.400 Oh, yeah.

01:32:50.780 What year is that?

01:32:52.140 Geez, this would have been 79.

01:32:54.500 Oh, oh, okay.

01:32:55.340 So that was very early.

01:32:56.300 It was early.

01:32:56.840 Right.

01:32:57.120 Because computers really didn't become widespread until about 83, 84.

01:33:02.040 Even that was really early.

01:33:03.300 Right.

01:33:03.720 Right.

01:33:03.920 So you had one very early.

01:33:05.300 Oh, yeah.

01:33:05.480 And it was, you know, it's a glorified video game.

01:33:07.180 Yeah, yeah.

01:33:07.720 But you're in the game at that point.

01:33:09.400 But you're in it.

01:33:09.860 You're, you know, you're programming.

01:33:11.040 You're typing in all the lines of code and everything so you can play that game for 10

01:33:14.160 minutes.

01:33:14.700 Right, right, right.

01:33:14.980 And all that.

01:33:15.660 So from there, it just kind of took a cure.

01:33:17.720 Sure, sure.

01:33:18.460 But you got to understand that it's not really, a lot of crime online is not really being

01:33:22.780 adept at computers.

01:33:24.020 It's being adept at fraud.

01:33:25.660 Right.

01:33:25.920 But the computer wasn't an impediment.

01:33:27.880 Right.

01:33:28.160 Right.

01:33:28.280 It was not.

01:33:28.880 It was not.

01:33:29.380 Okay.

01:33:29.660 So what do you start doing online?

01:33:31.640 So start looking around.

01:33:33.180 Just, you said porn.

01:33:35.480 Yeah, I was part of that, 35% of that point.

01:33:37.480 I'd spent a lot of time on porn sites and everything else.

01:33:39.540 And finally, I find eBay.

01:33:41.020 And I'm like, I like eBay a lot.

01:33:43.720 And I was like, there's got to be some way to make money on eBay.

01:33:47.320 And what I came across was Bill O'Reilly, he used to host Inside Edition.

01:33:53.920 And they were doing a show on Beanie Babies one night, profiling Peanut through the blue

01:33:57.920 elephant was what they were profiling.

01:33:59.940 And I was watching and I was like, I'm a naive guy.

01:34:02.700 I was like, you know, I'm in Kentucky.

01:34:04.260 There's got to be one of these little animals someplace in a store in a bin someplace because 0.99

01:34:08.160 he was selling for $1,500 on eBay.

01:34:10.600 So go around.

01:34:11.360 The next day, I skip my classes, go around to all the little stores.

01:34:14.100 It takes me about three hours to figure out, no, no, he's not in a store.

01:34:16.800 He's on eBay for $1,500.

01:34:18.760 Right.

01:34:19.260 They'd already been well scavenged.

01:34:21.000 Exactly.

01:34:21.520 Exactly.

01:34:22.120 So I was always the guy that did research.

01:34:24.860 I go home and I start researching.

01:34:27.460 Okay, what do you have to send?

01:34:28.700 If you don't send an item in the mail, can they arrest you for that?

01:34:34.140 Is what I was like.

01:34:36.140 Turns out they can.

01:34:37.760 So I was like, so how do you get around that?

01:34:39.140 Well, it turns out that they had these little gray Beanie Baby Elephant sprayed dollars.

01:34:44.240 Bought one of those.

01:34:45.420 Stopped by Kroger on the way home.

01:34:46.980 Picked up a pack of blue ripped dye.

01:34:49.300 Oh, yeah.

01:34:50.100 Went home, dyed the guy.

01:34:51.120 I was like, you know, I can tell the lady, if nothing else, that damaged and shipping,

01:34:54.300 something like that.

01:34:54.880 Because they were exactly the same except for the color.

01:34:57.580 So put a picture of a real one on eBay.

01:35:00.300 She wins the business.

01:35:01.020 How much like the real one did they look?

01:35:03.880 Not at all.

01:35:04.620 Oh, okay.

01:35:05.240 Looked like it had the mange when you got it out.

01:35:07.000 So it's made out of polyester.

01:35:08.340 Right, so it's hard to dye it.

01:35:09.380 Yeah, you can't dye it.

01:35:10.340 Right, right.

01:35:10.800 I mean, it needs to be splotchy and everything.

01:35:12.020 It's wet and everything else.

01:35:13.760 And I was like, you know, what will happen is she'll get it in the mail.

01:35:16.580 She'll see that it's been wet and everything.

01:35:18.120 She'll think it was damaged and shipping.

01:35:19.920 I can claim that if nothing else, all right?

01:35:22.240 So dye it the thing, send it out to her, get a call as soon as she gets it. 0.57

01:35:25.880 But before I sent it out to her, I was like, hey, I want to make sure I get my money.

01:35:29.460 Send her a message.

01:35:30.080 This is a social engineering thing again, because I don't want to be on the defensive of this conversation.

01:35:34.300 I want her on the defensive.

01:35:35.560 I want her to have to establish trust with me, not me with her.

01:35:39.240 So I sent her a message.

01:35:40.100 Hey, congratulations.

01:35:41.040 You win the bid.

01:35:43.380 We've never done any business before.

01:35:45.020 I don't know if I can trust you.

01:35:46.320 What I need you to do is go down to the U.S. Postal Service, pick up a couple of money orders totaling $1,500.

01:35:51.580 Send those to me.

01:35:52.780 I'll send you your animal.

01:35:54.340 She believed that.

01:35:55.900 Sends me the money orders.

01:35:56.920 The reason I wanted that is you can't cancel.

01:35:59.240 So it sends me money orders.

01:36:00.480 I cash them out.

01:36:01.620 Send her this thing in the mail.

01:36:03.060 Get a phone call.

01:36:04.080 Did not order this.

01:36:05.240 My exact response, you ordered a blue elephant.

01:36:07.820 I sent you a blue-ish elephant.

01:36:10.160 And I kept putting her off.

01:36:11.520 I kept saying, yeah, I'll send you the money back.

01:36:13.340 I'll send you the money back.

01:36:14.540 What you find out, and that's one of the things I teach in classes these days, is that's the first lesson of cybercrime.

01:36:19.720 You delay that victim.

01:36:20.900 You just keep putting them off.

01:36:22.600 A lot of them, they get exasperated, throw their hands in the air, walk away.

01:36:25.900 Right, right, right.

01:36:26.860 You don't hear from them, and they don't call law enforcement.

01:36:30.200 So it's the first online crime I committed right there.

01:36:32.580 And why don't they call law enforcement?

01:36:34.800 Embarrassment.

01:36:35.160 I mean, so think about it.

01:36:38.080 Well, and it's trouble.

01:36:38.920 It's also trouble to call the cops.

01:36:40.500 It's not nothing.

01:36:41.400 And I know the reasons today.

01:36:42.560 So it's embarrassment of the victims.

01:36:44.420 It's who do you complain to?

01:36:46.320 Do you complain to the Kentucky State Police?

01:36:48.920 Do you complain to the sheriff's office?

01:36:50.260 Do you complain to the state where you bought it from?

01:36:51.720 It's legal ambiguity.

01:36:52.520 So there's a lot of jurisdictional issues at the same time.

01:36:55.400 But a lot of the time, the law enforcement, when you walk into a police station, they don't want to hear it. 0.99

01:37:00.180 You know, were you stupid enough to fall for a scam like that is a lot of the response from law enforcement. 1.00

01:37:06.140 Right, right. 1.00

01:37:06.660 That's a foolish response. 0.99

01:37:08.120 It is. 0.98

01:37:08.360 Because the people who are scamming are likely doing other things.

01:37:11.060 Right.

01:37:11.760 Yeah, yeah.

01:37:12.560 Plus, if you let those small things go, as we've already discussed, they don't stay small for long.

01:37:17.480 They don't.

01:37:17.780 Because criminals are also ambitious.

01:37:19.280 What's that broken windows policy?

01:37:20.480 Yes, absolutely.

01:37:21.640 Absolutely.

01:37:22.180 It works.

01:37:22.440 Definitely that.

01:37:23.280 Yes, definitely.

01:37:24.880 Yeah.

01:37:25.140 Yeah, okay.

01:37:26.160 Okay.

01:37:27.000 So you're putting her off, and you've got your $1,500.

01:37:30.140 Okay, so then what happens?

01:37:32.100 Well, what happens is I continue with little eBay scams under my own name.

01:37:35.700 But I start getting better because I start to realize that, hey, these people are calling me and complaining about this stuff.

01:37:41.420 Right.

01:37:41.620 So I start—

01:37:42.620 Seems like an unnecessary amount of trouble.

01:37:44.240 Very unnecessary.

01:37:45.080 But remember, I've got that history and identity theft at the same time.

01:37:48.160 Right.

01:37:48.980 So what I start doing is I transition over into pirated software.

01:37:54.160 Pirated software, in order to play like pirated video games, back then you had to have a mod chip that was soldered onto the circuit board of the gaming system.

01:38:02.280 So I started to do that.

01:38:03.820 That opened up the door.

01:38:05.120 Okay, do what exactly?

01:38:06.200 So you'd get this little circuit chip, and you'd crack open the PlayStation 1 or the Sega Saturn or the Dreamcast, and you'd find out where on the circuit board you had to solder that chip, and you'd solder the chip on there.

01:38:17.260 And that would allow you to play the pressed or the—

01:38:19.200 The false game.

01:38:20.200 The ripped CDs that you had the games on.

01:38:23.480 Oh, yes.

01:38:24.100 Okay.

01:38:24.200 So that would do that.

01:38:25.100 So that led into programming satellite DSS cards.

01:38:29.220 So the RCA 18-inch satellite systems, you can pull the access card out of it, program it, turn on the channels.

01:38:36.800 Started doing that.

01:38:38.120 How did you learn to do these things?

01:38:40.060 Read it online, on forums.

01:38:41.300 This is not complicated stuff at all, all right?

01:38:44.060 So the soldering, I learned working at Lexmark.

01:38:47.240 So that tool translated very well, too.

01:38:49.140 Yeah, yeah.

01:38:49.720 The pirated software led into—what got me on there was I was doing porn online, and some of the sites had banner ads or people discussing pirated software.

01:39:02.360 So that led into getting the context for the pirated software, which then led into mod chips.

01:39:06.820 The mod chip forums started to talk about RCA satellite systems.

01:39:11.300 Right.

01:39:11.520 So this is the beginnings of a criminal network emerging online, essentially.

01:39:16.740 And then what happens is a Canadian judge, he actually rules in court.

01:39:20.700 He was like, since RCA doesn't sell the systems up here, my citizens can pirate the signals.

01:39:26.120 Oh, yeah.

01:39:26.620 Thank you, Canada.

01:39:27.640 Yeah.

01:39:27.900 So what happens is you go down to Best Buy.

01:39:29.780 You buy the system for $100, take it out, throw the system away, take the access card, program it, ship it to Canada, $500 a pop.

01:39:36.820 Oh, yeah.

01:39:37.580 Oh, yeah.

01:39:37.940 That's a good deal.

01:39:38.720 That's a good deal.

01:39:39.580 Yeah.

01:39:39.700 So started doing—

01:39:40.700 That's legal, too, eh?

01:39:42.860 That's legal.

01:39:43.780 Well, it's great.

01:39:45.080 Yeah, okay.

01:39:45.840 All right.

01:39:46.260 Right.

01:39:46.680 So it's legal in Canada.

01:39:48.600 Right.

01:39:49.120 But it's not legal to do it in the United States and ship it to Canada.

01:39:52.380 I see.

01:39:52.900 I see.

01:39:53.400 Okay.

01:39:54.140 So started doing that.

01:39:54.940 Also relatively low probability of getting caught because your Canadian people are not going to be unhappy.

01:39:59.700 So started to do that, and at the same time is when PayPal comes into fruition.

01:40:04.140 And back then—

01:40:04.700 And how much money are you making with the chip thing?

01:40:06.020 $4,000 a week.

01:40:07.200 Oh, yeah.

01:40:07.860 And that's in 2000—

01:40:09.560 This was 96.

01:40:11.580 Okay.

01:40:11.960 So you're doing pretty well.

01:40:13.020 I'm doing pretty well at that point.

01:40:14.000 Yeah.

01:40:14.340 All right.

01:40:15.300 Had so many orders, it became a problem trying to find enough access cards for the orders.

01:40:19.940 That's sad.

01:40:20.760 That's for sure.

01:40:21.000 That's an issue.

01:40:22.720 Yeah.

01:40:22.860 So what I was like, I was like, hell, they're in Canada.

01:40:26.040 Who are they going to complain to if I don't send them anything?

01:40:28.260 Oh, yeah.

01:40:29.160 So I started doing that, stole even more money, got worried about how much was coming in, and wanted a fake driver's license.

01:40:38.420 Now, I knew how to do identity theft.

01:40:40.360 I didn't know how to make fake driver's licenses.

01:40:43.020 So I figured I could get a fake ID, use that to open up a bank account, funnel the money through the account, cash out of the ATM.

01:40:50.660 Didn't know where to get one.

01:40:52.000 That university didn't know where to get one.

01:40:53.400 So I got online, started looking around, found a guy, sent him $200 in my picture, and he rips me off.

01:40:59.940 Oh, yeah.

01:41:01.300 Yeah.

01:41:01.940 Yeah.

01:41:02.540 Yeah.

01:41:03.060 And I got really angry at that.

01:41:05.560 You should have thought that was funny, really.

01:41:07.740 You know, today I do.

01:41:09.040 I do.

01:41:09.400 Today, it's all karma.

01:41:10.740 Yeah.

01:41:11.460 But back then, I was just mad.

01:41:13.280 Yeah.

01:41:13.680 Yeah.

01:41:14.380 Well, that's a blow to your ego.

01:41:15.940 It is.

01:41:16.520 Definitely.

01:41:17.460 But I still needed the ID.

01:41:18.940 Yeah.

01:41:19.880 So continued to search for this thing.

01:41:21.920 And the only avenue you had back then to commit crime online was IRC, Internet Relay Chat.

01:41:28.480 Rolling chat board.

01:41:29.400 Had no idea who you were talking to, if you could trust them, if they had something for sale, if they actually had it, or if they were just going to rip you off.

01:41:35.200 So you couldn't use that network.

01:41:37.120 The only real website at that point in time was called Counterfeit Library.

01:41:41.220 And the only thing it dealt in was counterfeit degrees and certificates.

01:41:45.060 But they had a forum section attached to it.

01:41:47.320 So because that was the real only platform out there, I started going to that forum every single day and complaining about getting ripped off.

01:41:57.460 That's all I do.

01:41:58.180 I'm bitching about that.

01:42:00.200 About getting ripped off for the ID.

01:42:01.820 Yeah.

01:42:02.320 Because I'm looking for this ID.

01:42:04.160 So I'm complaining about getting ripped off and I still need this ID.

01:42:06.880 I see.

01:42:07.260 So what happens is, because that's really the only trustworthy platform that's out there at the point, you start having these other people coming into this forum as well.

01:42:16.220 I ended up partnering with two other people, a guy from Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, a guy from L.A., the Moose Jaw guy.

01:42:21.660 Moose Jaw.

01:42:22.300 There you go.

01:42:23.040 International crime conversion is a Moose Jaw.

01:42:25.080 So Moose Jaw, he actually made fake IDs.

01:42:28.480 So he gets me up one day on ICQ and he's like, hey, I can make you a fake driver's license.

01:42:32.260 I was like, well, make it.

01:42:33.440 He's like, no, I'm going to charge you $200. 1.00

01:42:35.140 I'm like, yeah, like shit you are. 0.99

01:42:36.920 Well, by this point in time, I'm friends with the people who actually own the website. 1.00

01:42:41.440 We're shooting emails at each other and everything else.

01:42:43.860 And I'm like, I'll tell you what, I'm going to send you $200.

01:42:46.400 So that way when you rip me off, I can have you banned from here and I don't have to worry about you anymore.

01:42:50.300 And he's like, bet.

01:42:51.420 I was like, okay.

01:42:52.380 So send him a picture.

01:42:53.500 Send him $200.

01:42:54.800 Two weeks later, I get a fake driver's license.

01:42:57.920 Is it a good one?

01:42:59.100 Well, I thought it was.

01:43:01.020 Looking back, it wasn't.

01:43:02.200 But at that point in time, it was good enough to go to a bank.

01:43:05.160 Right.

01:43:05.400 It was good enough.

01:43:06.080 It was good enough to cash checks with.

01:43:07.360 And it was in a real name as well.

01:43:10.480 So what happens is, is he went by the screen name of Beelzebub.

01:43:15.220 Oh, God.

01:43:16.600 Yeah.

01:43:16.820 That bloody well figures.

01:43:18.300 You know, one of the things I've really noticed about the most vicious online trolls is the probability that they have an anonymous name with something satanic, Nazi, or communist in it is almost 100%. 0.73

01:43:30.860 Always.

01:43:31.400 Yeah, it's stunning.

01:43:32.520 Always.

01:43:32.920 It's supposed to be funny.

01:43:34.060 It's not that funny, actually.

01:43:35.460 But it's unbelievably, it's unbelievably prevalent.

01:43:38.720 He did that.

01:43:39.160 He was a pot goer.

01:43:40.000 That's what I actually did on the side.

01:43:41.400 He grew marijuana.

01:43:42.500 But he sends me the idea, the ID, he wants to sell fake driver's licenses online.

01:43:50.660 The other guy that I partnered with, he went by the screen name Mr. X, and he did a very competent social security guard.

01:43:57.840 So together, you had an ID packet.

01:43:59.660 Right, right, right.

01:44:00.460 I didn't have that skill at that point in time.

01:44:03.020 So what he said was, he was like, hey, what you do is you become the reviewer.

01:44:07.460 Any product or service, because you don't sell anything, you're not making anything, any product or service, you'll be that outside, unbiased.

01:44:15.260 Oh, oh, interesting, interesting.

01:44:16.820 You review everything, then that allows you to get the product in, see how it works, see how these things operate.

01:44:23.320 So that's what I did.

01:44:24.360 I started to review things.

01:44:25.760 Well, these are, you're reviewing specifically illegal things.

01:44:29.680 Exactly.

01:44:30.260 Right, okay.

01:44:30.640 So that was my initial position.

01:44:32.080 Right, and you had presumably an anonymous handle for that as well.

01:44:36.140 Gollum Fun.

01:44:36.240 What was your name?

01:44:37.340 What's that?

01:44:37.900 Gollum Fun.

01:44:39.120 Gollum.

01:44:39.900 Oh, yeah.

01:44:40.420 Lord of the Rings.

01:44:41.100 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:44:42.320 Like you said, like you said.

01:44:44.060 Yeah, yeah.

01:44:45.160 So what happens is.

01:44:46.220 Amazing.

01:44:46.700 Yeah.

01:44:46.820 Why'd you pick that name?

01:44:47.940 I'm a big Lord of the Rings fan.

01:44:49.420 Yeah, but normally people don't pick Gollum as their hero.

01:44:52.540 I'll tell you why I picked it.

01:44:53.500 So on the satellite side, my initial name was Baggins, all right?

01:45:00.160 And because there were some other Baggins users on the internet at that point in time, I added dad to it.

01:45:05.620 So Baggins dad.

01:45:06.600 Yeah.

01:45:06.780 So once I translated over to a real criminal platform, I was like, well, you can't use that because they're going to find that name and that's Brett Johnson.

01:45:16.160 So I was like, I still like Lord of the Rings, Gollum.

01:45:18.900 Yeah.

01:45:19.080 Then added tag on it.

01:45:19.900 That's a sign that you've gone to the dark side.

01:45:21.080 I know.

01:45:21.520 That's a sign right there.

01:45:22.640 Yeah, yeah.

01:45:23.280 So I become the reviewer of Counterfeit Library.

01:45:28.760 And it was a field of dreams for criminals because it was the first of its type.

01:45:33.260 Now you had someplace where you had an actual reviewer that when you, and when you reviewed something, if I gave a positive review, I stood by that.

01:45:41.680 Meaning if you get ripped off, I will reimburse you for being ripped off.

01:45:47.620 Oh, you're kidding.

01:45:48.620 So you were an escrow agent for criminal transactions.

01:45:52.080 I'll make sure.

01:45:52.680 So if I'm reviewing somebody, I'm going to make sure that you get your product or service.

01:45:56.200 Okay.

01:45:56.520 Well, that's quite the creative niche.

01:45:58.140 Yeah.

01:45:58.500 Yeah, really?

01:45:59.400 Yeah, yeah.

01:45:59.820 Makes you wonder what you could have done if you would have been putting that power to go.

01:46:02.660 A whole lot.

01:46:03.400 A whole lot.

01:46:04.520 I'm doing pretty well right now.

01:46:05.660 Good, good, good.

01:46:06.540 Well.

01:46:07.040 But Mr. X and Beelzebub, Beelzebub doesn't do really well with his driver's licenses.

01:46:12.880 He drops out about 15, 16 months later.

01:46:16.760 Mr. X gets arrested cashing things out in Las Vegas.

01:46:20.580 So he, both of those disappear.

01:46:22.520 I'm top of the food chain because by this point in time, all these other criminals have come to this platform.

01:46:27.780 And they rely on me to tell them, hey, this is who you need to do business with.

01:46:31.420 This is how good the products are.

01:46:32.700 You're connecting people like mad.

01:46:34.300 Yeah.

01:46:34.420 So at one point, every single transaction went through me on Counterfeit Library.

01:46:39.800 Nothing else.

01:46:41.080 From there, Counterfeit Library transitions over to Shadow Crew.

01:46:45.440 And Shadow Crew.

01:46:46.440 And what sort of population size of people do you suppose were using that on a regular basis at that point?

01:46:51.440 So Shadow Crew ended with 4,000 people.

01:46:54.080 Right.

01:46:54.520 So, you know, 1% of the criminals commit 65% of the crimes, right?

01:47:01.300 So if there's 4,000 of them and there are people who are dedicated, you're dealing with a group of people who are responsible for a massive amount of criminal activity.

01:47:09.660 We were prolific.

01:47:11.600 If you look at, so Shadow Crew gets busted in 2004.

01:47:14.960 You look at the cybercrime arrests that have happened up through today, and a majority of those people have connections to Shadow Crew.

01:47:23.220 Right.

01:47:23.560 So Albert Gonzalez, Roman Vega, all these other people, they're Shadow Crew operatives.

01:47:28.200 Even the Canadian guy that ran Quadriga, the cryptocurrency exchange, both of those guys were Shadow Crew people. 0.98

01:47:34.880 So that connections absolutely still exist today on that.

01:47:38.720 So to give you an idea, though, so 4,000 sounds like a lot until you fast forward to 2017, Alphabay, which was a dark web marketplace and forum, 240,000 people.

01:47:50.920 Right, right.

01:47:51.620 I agree, like everything else on the net.

01:47:53.440 Then 2019, just a marketplace gets shut down, 1.15 million.

01:47:57.680 So these numbers continue to explode.

01:47:59.200 Cybercrime today, if it were a country, would have the third largest economy on the planet.

01:48:04.140 That's how things have expanded to that point.

01:48:05.860 Now, does that include pornography distribution?

01:48:07.820 It does not.

01:48:08.680 Without pornography distribution?

01:48:09.640 Without pornography.

01:48:11.980 We're talking financial cybercrime, third largest economy on the planet.

01:48:16.400 That's how big this is these days.

01:48:18.920 Now, is that primarily operating in Western worlds, or how prolific is that criminal activity in non-Western worlds?

01:48:25.420 Well, North Korea finances one-third of their nuclear program through cybercrime. 0.68

01:48:31.600 Oh, that's a lovely little connection.

01:48:33.280 Isn't it, though?

01:48:34.540 What about Iran?

01:48:35.840 I don't know about Iran.

01:48:36.840 I can't give that figure on that.

01:48:38.360 But North Korea, one-third. 0.74

01:48:40.000 One-third.

01:48:41.540 Wow.

01:48:41.820 Through stolen cryptocurrency, credit card schemes, pig butchering attacks, you name it.

01:48:46.560 What's that one?

01:48:47.480 Pig butchering is, think of a romance scheme or a cryptocurrency scheme where I'm going to not take one or two payments from you, but take every single thing that you've got. 0.70

01:48:56.900 Yeah. 0.98

01:48:57.540 That's what they call it, pig butchering, because you're basically butchering the pig.

01:49:01.280 And you pull people in one little step at a time?

01:49:03.560 Layer the trust.

01:49:04.200 Like a Ponzi scheme thing where they get payouts to begin with, and you build up trust, and eventually you just take everything.

01:49:09.340 But understand, in an online environment, trust is much easier to establish because people almost inherently trust that technology.

01:49:18.200 You know, we don't understand the cell phones.

01:49:19.940 We don't understand security on websites, but we trust that stuff.

01:49:23.660 We trust those phone numbers that come across the line.

01:49:26.000 We don't understand that criminals use spoof phone calls.

01:49:28.860 That's not the Social Security Administration or the FBI calling them.

01:49:31.900 That's a scammer.

01:49:32.700 You just don't see their own number.

01:49:34.200 That lays trust.

01:49:35.120 And then, remember I talked about social engineering, then you see how good of a con man, liar, social engineer he is in layering the trust and manipulating you to give up cash, information access, data.

01:49:46.500 Right, right.

01:49:47.180 Okay, so this expands outward.

01:49:49.160 And now, you're involved in this from 2002, the Shadow Crew specifically, 2002 to 2004.

01:49:55.660 Correct.

01:49:56.100 Okay, what happens in 2004?

01:49:58.060 So 2004, I'm the guy that, in the United States, there's this thing called tax return identity theft.

01:50:05.020 It's the reason that every single person gets their tax returns delayed every single year.

01:50:09.180 I'm the guy that started that.

01:50:10.800 Okay, and so how does that work?

01:50:12.380 So what it is, is I started it.

01:50:15.140 I had access.

01:50:16.120 We had these identity database accesses, these different databases.

01:50:20.820 Started out with the Indiana State Sex Offenders Registry, and we used that to open up bank accounts.

01:50:26.100 Back then, you had, on that registry, you had Social Security, driver's license, blenther's bay, and DOBs.

01:50:31.040 Of these people?

01:50:32.040 Of the sex offenders.

01:50:33.480 Oh, yeah.

01:50:33.880 And there's a population you can take advantage of with very little guilt.

01:50:38.020 Exactly the fault.

01:50:39.060 Right.

01:50:39.400 So my thought was, who's going to complain about that?

01:50:43.500 So started doing that and did so much fraud on that registry that Indiana stripped the PII from the registry.

01:50:51.560 PII is?

01:50:52.420 Personal Identifying Information.

01:50:53.660 Yes, okay.

01:50:54.240 Social, states of birth, mother's maiden.

01:50:55.940 Right, right.

01:50:56.420 They stripped that. 0.99

01:50:57.020 The next database we had access to was the Texas DMV, which we used to make a lot of driver's licenses.

01:51:03.040 Wow.

01:51:03.660 Okay.

01:51:04.120 And you got access to that.

01:51:05.320 Got access.

01:51:05.820 How did you get access to it?

01:51:07.320 They had, the passwords were very easy to brute force.

01:51:11.720 I see.

01:51:12.080 So none of it complicated it at all.

01:51:15.720 Uh-huh.

01:51:16.100 The final database that I had access to was the California State Death Index.

01:51:22.560 Oh, yeah.

01:51:23.220 All right?

01:51:23.800 So I started to look at that, and I was like, I wonder, because I was looking for money to come in.

01:51:28.440 I was like, I wonder if you can file Social Security benefits for the people who are deceased.

01:51:33.420 And how does the federal government know if you're dead?

01:51:36.640 Right.

01:51:37.180 Because in the United States, a state database does not share information with a federal database.

01:51:42.980 So the state can know you're dead, but the feds may not.

01:51:46.520 As a matter of fact, prior to 1998, if you died, the only way the federal government knew you were dead is if the family filed a Social Security death benefit.

01:51:57.600 Only paid like $200.

01:51:58.900 So most family members did not because they're in grief at that point in time.

01:52:01.960 Right, right, right.

01:52:03.420 After 98, that law changes.

01:52:05.360 Now the hospital or the funeral home can do that for you.

01:52:08.340 Okay, and they do.

01:52:09.920 So back then, I was like, I wonder if you can do Social Security death benefits, you know, retirement benefits on these people.

01:52:15.580 You can't because the numbers have been dormant for so long they want you to come in for a sit-down interview.

01:52:21.020 The next thought was, I wonder if you can file taxes for tax returns on these people.

01:52:27.180 You can.

01:52:29.120 All right?

01:52:29.480 So the way that system works is you pay your taxes.

01:52:33.340 The U.S. government gives you a refund on those taxes before they are able to verify with the employer whether that person was hired and worked and had taxes withdrawn.

01:52:45.040 So you can file a false return that's very realistic for someone else and claim a return.

01:52:50.240 And they will send you the money.

01:52:51.680 Oh, yeah.

01:52:52.360 Okay?

01:52:52.600 So I started doing that.

01:52:53.660 I would file around 180 tax returns a week.

01:52:57.820 Got to where I was manually able to do one every six minutes.

01:53:01.860 Sunday through Wednesday filed returns.

01:53:03.660 And for what amounts, approximately?

01:53:05.820 $3,000 and under.

01:53:07.140 And why did you pick that amount?

01:53:08.820 So I was—one of the things that you find out with cybercrime, and I was always good on research, so tax return—tax identity or tax return theft had been popular.

01:53:19.520 And what you saw on the indictments was people would have those returns deposited to their own bank accounts.

01:53:26.860 Okay?

01:53:27.580 Mm-hmm.

01:53:27.840 I didn't want to do that.

01:53:28.780 No.

01:53:29.340 You learned that already.

01:53:30.360 I learned that one already.

01:53:31.460 So what I wanted to do is I wanted to find some sort of payment instrument that would accept a direct deposit from the government.

01:53:37.560 At about the same time is when these things called prepaid debit cards start to hit the market.

01:53:42.420 And back then, they used to advertise them as payroll cards.

01:53:45.440 So you'd basically give them to illegal Hispanic workers, and they could have their paycheck deposited on them. 0.95

01:53:50.680 Well, they would accept any ACH deposit, meaning a federal government deposit would be just fine on that.

01:53:55.780 But the deposit amount had to be under $3,000.

01:53:59.180 I see.

01:53:59.760 I see.

01:54:00.100 So I started doing that, would spend time—

01:54:02.960 $180 a week.

01:54:04.240 $180 returns a week.

01:54:05.860 Right.

01:54:06.400 So you're starting to make a lot of money at this point.

01:54:08.140 Making a lot of money.

01:54:09.300 At the same time, shadow crew starts to get a lot of law enforcement attention.

01:54:14.840 Uh-huh.

01:54:15.260 Were those things linked, or were they—

01:54:16.860 They were not.

01:54:17.520 Nobody knew I was doing tax return theft at that point.

01:54:19.640 I see.

01:54:20.140 I see.

01:54:20.680 But what happens is—

01:54:21.440 And so how were you making money on shadow crew then?

01:54:23.820 I wasn't.

01:54:24.540 I never made money on shadow crew.

01:54:25.160 Oh, I see.

01:54:25.880 I see.

01:54:26.240 You were just making your connections and learning.

01:54:28.420 I ran the entire thing.

01:54:29.500 Never made any money.

01:54:31.400 Okay.

01:54:31.700 So why did you do it?

01:54:33.160 The eco.

01:54:33.860 Okay.

01:54:34.500 Fair enough.

01:54:35.100 I was that guy.

01:54:36.040 Yeah, yeah.

01:54:36.480 Well, like you said, their status is a major motivator.

01:54:39.060 And I got a lot of—so if anyone—like, I partnered with the Ukrainians.

01:54:42.480 I was the guy who brought them over.

01:54:44.540 They would give me—shoot me free products and services all the time.

01:54:47.880 So as long as I was giving them good reviews and as long as their product worked, I was

01:54:51.160 more than happy to do that.

01:54:52.380 Right.

01:54:52.720 So they made a lot of money, too.

01:54:54.280 So it was just—

01:54:55.180 Uh-huh.

01:54:55.500 Never made cash, but I made products and services.

01:54:57.580 Yeah, yeah.

01:54:57.600 Okay.

01:54:58.120 Okay.

01:54:59.280 Shadow crew, we had this thing called the CVV1 hack, which allowed you to take phished

01:55:05.620 information like we were getting the card number and the PIN.

01:55:08.120 And we found out through testing that the banks had not implemented what was called

01:55:12.900 the hash.

01:55:13.600 So in order to encode it onto a physical card, you've got three data tracks on the card.

01:55:18.780 The second data track is what's important at an ATM.

01:55:21.780 That's the card number, forward slash, and then there's a 16-digit algorithm outside of

01:55:26.140 that.

01:55:26.820 None of the banks had implemented the hash for that, meaning you've got the card number,

01:55:31.260 you've got the PIN, you put any 16 digits out, it would encode.

01:55:35.520 You take it to an ATM, start pulling money out.

01:55:39.280 We started doing that, and typically a cashier would make $40,000 a day at that point.

01:55:45.220 All right?

01:55:46.060 Yeah.

01:55:47.040 And 60% of that went over to the Ukrainians that was supplying the information.

01:55:51.420 So they were making a lot of money all of a sudden.

01:55:53.860 That got a lot of law enforcement attention.

01:55:56.860 So we started to see IPs coming in from DOD, Pentagon, DOJ, all these other things.

01:56:02.100 Right now you're funding a criminal network in the UK as well.

01:56:04.980 Oh, that's not turning out so well.

01:56:07.120 And I'm starting to wonder about RICO all of a sudden.

01:56:09.620 Yeah, right.

01:56:10.360 All right?

01:56:10.700 Yeah, yeah.

01:56:11.160 So at the same time, we had a gentleman who went by the screen name of Enhance.

01:56:16.840 He was the guy that posted Paris Hilton's phone list back in the early 2000s.

01:56:23.000 All right?

01:56:23.280 He's also the guy that intercepted text messages of the United States Secret Service investigating

01:56:28.660 Shadow Crew.

01:56:30.160 So we have that.

01:56:31.540 I'm at the top of the food chain.

01:56:33.000 I'm getting worried about what's going to happen.

01:56:35.060 I'm like, what are you doing with all your money at this point?

01:56:37.640 I don't know how to launder money yet.

01:56:39.120 So I'll go on a road trip, put $150,000 in a backpack.

01:56:42.420 That's what will fit in 20s in a backpack.

01:56:44.580 Put $150,000 in a backpack.

01:56:45.900 I've got a spare bedroom in Charleston, South Carolina.

01:56:48.500 Come home, take the backpack, chuck it in the bedroom.

01:56:51.720 $150,000 a week on that.

01:56:52.860 All right?

01:56:53.080 Ten months out of the year.

01:56:53.880 So a lot of money coming in.

01:56:55.380 And is that where it's sitting? 0.98

01:56:57.020 It's sitting until literally one day I open up the bedroom door and I'm like, shit, I've 0.98

01:57:01.060 got to do something with those backpacks. 0.99

01:57:04.940 Yeah, yeah.

01:57:05.680 So at that point is when I start learning how to launder money.

01:57:08.580 I had bank accounts in the United States, Canada, Mexico, Caymans, throughout Europe, and

01:57:12.240 it finally ended up into Estonia, a bank called Bank Latiko, is where most of the money ended

01:57:17.400 up.

01:57:18.000 All right?

01:57:18.300 And how much money are we talking about at this point?

01:57:20.240 How much do you manage to make?

01:57:21.560 About $7 million total is what that was.

01:57:24.980 All right?

01:57:26.920 Shadow crew.

01:57:27.640 Right, but see, when I asked you what you were doing with the money, I didn't exactly

01:57:31.860 mean you're putting it in backpacks and throwing it in a room.

01:57:34.440 I mean, you're making all this money.

01:57:36.900 Like, what good is it doing to you?

01:57:39.760 None.

01:57:40.060 None.

01:57:40.280 I'm none.

01:57:43.260 I'm one of those, what you find out with most cyber criminals is that most of them will

01:57:48.780 commit a crime, get the proceeds of the crime, live off that until it starts to dwindle down,

01:57:54.020 then bankroll the next crime.

01:57:55.320 Yeah.

01:57:55.660 I'm one of those guys that, I didn't work that way.

01:57:58.300 I kept doing it and saving the money as a big pile.

01:58:02.560 I liked looking at a big pile of money.

01:58:05.140 And did you ever have any idea what you might do with that pile of money?

01:58:09.300 Yeah, I was going to open up a nightclub.

01:58:11.660 Okay, okay, okay.

01:58:13.060 Yeah, that was...

01:58:13.600 Well, you could open up a pretty good nightclub for $7 million.

01:58:15.720 Pretty good one.

01:58:15.740 Pretty good one.

01:58:16.400 And so...

01:58:18.440 Why didn't you just do that instead?

01:58:20.260 Because you could have had a nightclub then.

01:58:22.300 Looking back, it's the ego thing.

01:58:23.840 Yeah, okay.

01:58:24.600 It's the...

01:58:25.000 You're in it already.

01:58:26.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:58:26.540 Yeah, yeah.

01:58:27.020 You're not going to give that up.

01:58:28.000 No, no, I mean, it's hard to express how big of a draw that is.

01:58:34.760 Yeah?

01:58:35.220 When you've got everyone that's relying on you.

01:58:40.360 So my days, I would spend 14, 16 hours a day at a computer.

01:58:44.480 I only took time off from the computer to go get money out of ATMs.

01:58:48.840 Right, so you're working your tail off.

01:58:50.680 Yeah, yeah.

01:58:52.540 So that's what happened at that point.

01:58:54.260 Yeah.

01:58:54.860 And it's really hard.

01:58:55.480 You're not even using...

01:58:56.380 Are you drinking at this point?

01:58:57.640 No, I don't start drinking until Susan leaves.

01:58:59.720 What about women? 1.00

01:59:00.860 No!

01:59:01.560 I see.

01:59:02.000 So you're just hiding up backpacks of money.

01:59:04.000 Now, I have to tell you, once Susan leaves, I make up for the alcohol and the women at that point. 1.00

01:59:09.100 Uh-huh.

01:59:09.580 All right?

01:59:09.980 Right, and you've got the cash to bankroll that now.

01:59:11.480 And I've got the cash to bankroll.

01:59:12.580 So I would...

01:59:13.700 When I was working for Secret Service, I would typically spend $4,000 or $6,000 a night at a strip club.

01:59:18.680 And just go in, and I'd give the bartender a wad of 20s and say, however many kamikazes that will buy. 0.96

01:59:24.700 And they would put this table together, and they'd put all these kamikazes on that.

01:59:28.080 And I called that my stripper magnet.

01:59:30.180 And what's a kamikaze? 0.84

01:59:31.740 It's vodka and...

01:59:33.280 I forgot what all it's got in there, but the girls liked it. 0.97

01:59:36.180 And I would drink these white Russians, what I would drink all the time. 1.00

01:59:39.460 Right. 0.73

01:59:39.760 And so once Susan left, that's where you were going at night, the strip club.

01:59:44.240 Once Susan leaves, I get depressed.

01:59:50.360 I find out she's cheating on me, and I put a key logger on her computer to find it out. 0.58

01:59:57.600 So I found out she was cheating on me, found some pictures and everything else, and she was asleep in the bedroom in Charleston. 0.82

02:00:04.020 I walk in there, and it was like 10 o'clock in the morning.

02:00:06.980 I walked in there.

02:00:07.480 I opened up the closet, got a suitcase out, started putting her clothes in it.

02:00:11.140 And she wakes up, and she's like, what are you doing?

02:00:12.800 I was like, where are you going?

02:00:14.360 I'm like, I'm not going anywhere.

02:00:15.320 You are.

02:00:16.860 And so you've been married how long at this point?

02:00:19.180 Nine years.

02:00:20.280 And that's your first wife? 1.00

02:00:21.520 Yeah.

02:00:22.160 Right.

02:00:22.580 Okay, okay, okay.

02:00:24.620 And this affair she's having, she's found someone else that she wants to be with this guy? 0.98

02:00:31.740 What's the scoop with that?

02:00:33.020 So, yeah, looking back, what I think actually happened was,

02:00:36.540 I think that's the only way she figured she could break off the relationship.

02:00:41.880 Right, right.

02:00:42.940 Because that was, that's always my line in the sand right there.

02:00:46.340 Right, right.

02:00:47.000 Well, and you said you'd already rendered her, or she'd already been rendered dependent as well.

02:00:51.320 So she needed an out.

02:00:52.700 Yeah.

02:00:53.560 Right.

02:00:53.960 And did she know how extensive your online criminal activity was?

02:00:57.580 Oh, yeah.

02:00:58.060 She knew.

02:00:58.660 She was well aware of it.

02:00:59.240 Okay, so she's.

02:01:00.200 Yeah.

02:01:00.860 Okay, okay.

02:01:02.360 Did she have any family or anyone connections at that point still? 1.00

02:01:05.580 She did, and what happens is, is I was a pure asshole. 0.97

02:01:11.280 It, I was planning on taking her back to Kentucky that day, but it, it, it was a week of me and her crying at the house. 0.99

02:01:18.520 And, you know, ending the relationship.

02:01:20.500 This is after you pat?

02:01:21.840 After we, after I pat was a week doing that, and, I mean, it's obvious that the relationship's over.

02:01:27.500 And, so I take her back to her mom's in eastern Kentucky, and that's the last time I see her right there.

02:01:32.560 From there, I go back to Charleston.

02:01:35.540 I'm walking around the house crying all the time.

02:01:38.020 And, realized that I was getting suicidal.

02:01:40.780 Figured I better do something about that.

02:01:42.900 Picked up the phone book.

02:01:44.060 Went to psychology.

02:01:45.220 Went to criminal psychology.

02:01:46.140 Found what it said, criminal psychology on there.

02:01:48.420 Called this psychologist crying.

02:01:51.000 She tells me to come in, and I see her for about four months.

02:01:54.060 And, she was trying, I tell it in speeches, but she was trying to get me to stop breaking the law and go into real estate.

02:02:00.520 And, I kept telling her, is there a difference between the two?

02:02:03.280 And, what happens is, is one night, I get lonely and horny.

02:02:08.400 Had never been to a strip club before.

02:02:10.480 I was like, tonight's the night I get laid.

02:02:12.460 Because, I've got all this money to.

02:02:14.280 Walk in, and I'm the guy that falls in love with the first one that he sees.

02:02:19.520 Yeah.

02:02:19.640 Oh, yeah.

02:02:19.940 Yeah, she walks by, I'm like, that's the one for me.

02:02:23.060 Move her in with me.

02:02:24.520 How long?

02:02:25.940 I moved her in with me within eight weeks.

02:02:29.060 Yeah, man, that's not wise, yeah.

02:02:31.520 No, it wasn't.

02:02:32.820 And, were you, is that when you started drinking?

02:02:35.640 I started drinking shortly before that.

02:02:38.540 Uh-huh.

02:02:39.380 And, were you intoxicated when you made the decision to go to the strip club?

02:02:42.460 I was not.

02:02:43.280 Completely sober.

02:02:44.320 Completely sober.

02:02:45.120 Okay.

02:02:45.580 And, were you drinking at the strip clubs by that point?

02:02:48.320 No, I was only, I only drink, at the point in time, I only drank white Russians.

02:02:52.100 And, it was just a beer bar, was all it was.

02:02:53.900 I couldn't stand beer at that point.

02:02:55.220 So, what happens is, is she walks up to the bar, and she's like, you want to buy me a drink?

02:02:59.820 Well, the drink's for $25 a pop.

02:03:01.200 I'm like, yeah, what are you drinking for $25?

02:03:04.280 And, finally, she's like, well, we can go in the back if you buy a bottle of champagne.

02:03:07.260 I was like, well, how much is champagne?

02:03:09.000 She's like, bottle of Corbell's $400. 0.96

02:03:11.120 I'm like, okay.

02:03:13.080 So, we go back there, and there's no, I find this out later.

02:03:16.960 A lot of men that go to strip clubs, especially, you know, 30s plus, they don't do dances.

02:03:20.780 They just want a bartender. 1.00

02:03:22.080 They want somebody to talk to.

02:03:23.380 And, that's literally what I did with this.

02:03:24.940 Yeah, yeah.

02:03:25.440 I talked to her about three hours that night.

02:03:27.920 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:03:29.680 Come back a week later and ask her out.

02:03:32.220 And, she says, yeah.

02:03:33.920 Move her in with me probably eight weeks after that.

02:03:35.980 Find out she's addicted to coke after that. 0.99

02:03:38.720 Find out, not only addicted to coke, but prostituting herself to support the habit.

02:03:44.700 And, I go off the rails at that point.

02:03:49.500 I get it in my head.

02:03:50.200 Okay, so, why were you shocked?

02:03:53.880 I don't think I was.

02:03:55.420 Yeah, okay.

02:03:56.300 I think that, I think that I wanted something, and I just was willfully naive at that point.

02:04:04.140 Yeah, well, you know, yeah, fair enough.

02:04:06.240 Okay.

02:04:06.460 Fair enough, well, there's none so blind as those who will not see, they say. 0.97

02:04:10.760 Yeah, yeah.

02:04:11.320 Yeah, well, you said you were lonesome, and it's easy to look the other way in all sorts of ways.

02:04:16.660 So, love.

02:04:17.280 And, it's not like your plate was clean at that point.

02:04:19.920 She didn't know I lied to her, too.

02:04:21.760 She didn't know I broke the law.

02:04:23.000 Right.

02:04:23.120 She had no idea about that.

02:04:24.040 I was telling everybody that I knew that I was a fraud consultant, and that was a joke for me.

02:04:28.520 Yeah, I consult on fraud.

02:04:30.140 Yeah, right.

02:04:30.240 I just don't tell you on which side of the equation.

02:04:31.940 Right, right, right, right.

02:04:32.920 So, what happens is, is I get it in my head that I could fix her.

02:04:38.360 Yeah.

02:04:39.080 And I don't, I don't understand yet.

02:04:41.000 Now, you can't fix other people, Brett.

02:04:42.680 You know, hell, you can't fix yourself.

02:04:43.840 Well, yeah, try yourself first and see how far you get with that.

02:04:46.740 So, I actually adopt this, I actually said it, I was like, what I'll do is, I'll spend enough money on her that it'll keep her mind off drones, no matter what it takes, because I've got that kind of bankroll.

02:05:02.480 Well, I've spent, I've sent most of my money over to Estonia, so I've got a bankroll at the house of maybe 200K.

02:05:10.280 It's fine, all right?

02:05:11.380 Like, she's got very expensive tastes.

02:05:14.800 At that point in time, my meals, I'd eat at the house, I'd cook at the house.

02:05:18.720 I didn't spend a lot of money on stuff.

02:05:21.480 It became, every single night, you know, $500,000 dinners.

02:05:25.620 Became $2,500 purses every weekend.

02:05:27.660 $1,000 Giuseppe Zanotti shoes every weekend.

02:05:32.320 Quickly start dwindling down on funds at the same time that Shadow Crew gets busted.

02:05:37.900 So, Shadow Crew makes that front cover of Forbes and gets busted three, four months later.

02:05:43.080 When that happens, by the time that happens, I'm out of money.

02:05:47.380 Elizabeth stopped using cocaine.

02:05:50.160 Absolutely.

02:05:50.780 She started to substitute it with alcohol.

02:05:52.960 Yeah.

02:05:53.880 But she stops using coke and she gets this thing where she doesn't want me to be away from her. 0.52

02:06:01.160 Well, when you're doing this type of cyber crime, you have to take road trips. 0.99

02:06:05.140 You don't want to shit where you eat. 0.95

02:06:06.440 So, you want to travel because if they find out a central location for you, they're going to get you. 0.99

02:06:12.620 So, because Elizabeth didn't want me to leave any place, I can't take a road trip.

02:06:18.460 Shadow Crew gets busted right as tax season is over.

02:06:21.680 I can't do tax return fraud in October.

02:06:24.180 So, I have to wait until late January, February to start back tax fraud.

02:06:28.960 Shadow Crew gets busted.

02:06:29.900 I can't go into credit theft or anything else all of a sudden.

02:06:32.140 It's the only thing that I'm left with is checks, running paper.

02:06:36.920 I used to teach people, never run paper.

02:06:39.700 You're going to go to prison for that.

02:06:41.000 It's easy enough to catch that stuff.

02:06:42.600 I start doing that, get caught.

02:06:44.520 And what had happened was Elizabeth wanted Tiffany rings.

02:06:51.800 So, Tiffany engagement ring, that was a counterfeit cashier's check.

02:06:54.860 And then she wanted the wedding bands, and that's where I got caught.

02:06:58.040 I had them ordered through eBay.

02:07:00.800 You know, this is the plot of a very bad novel.

02:07:03.100 It was a very bad one that we're trying to work on.

02:07:05.120 Yeah.

02:07:06.200 Yeah, yeah.

02:07:07.100 Okay, so you get nailed.

02:07:08.480 Yeah.

02:07:08.760 You get nailed at that point.

02:07:10.100 Yeah.

02:07:10.320 You've broken your own rules there, too.

02:07:11.980 I have.

02:07:12.460 Why?

02:07:13.500 Just, why, what, why?

02:07:14.820 Did you think you could get away with it?

02:07:16.080 Like, you knew you said, Ricky.

02:07:16.940 No, I knew.

02:07:17.760 By that point, I knew. 0.64

02:07:19.180 I guess just tired, worn out, didn't give a damn anymore.

02:07:23.120 Everything else.

02:07:23.960 When Susan left, I actually tried to get a real job that didn't last.

02:07:27.800 Oh, yeah.

02:07:28.260 So, do you suppose there was a part of you that was hoping you were going to get caught?

02:07:32.680 I hesitate to say that.

02:07:34.220 Yeah, yeah, but it's strange that you would pick something that you knew.

02:07:37.720 You knew.

02:07:38.400 But I do the same thing with the Secret Service, so maybe, yeah.

02:07:41.540 Maybe.

02:07:42.680 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:07:43.960 Well, you know, you said you were pretty sick of yourself after your wife left.

02:07:47.240 Yeah.

02:07:47.980 Yeah, and then the whole thing with the stripper couldn't help that much.

02:07:51.220 Right.

02:07:52.700 Yeah.

02:07:53.000 So.

02:07:53.320 Did you love her?

02:07:55.380 It's that addiction thing, right?

02:07:57.400 I, yeah, I loved her.

02:08:00.200 Yeah. 0.99

02:08:00.420 I loved the shit out of her. 0.94

02:08:02.200 Yeah. 0.98

02:08:02.540 And I, you know, I did this other show, and up until that, I had always joked about it.

02:08:09.000 Yeah.

02:08:09.440 You know, that first stripper that I see, and I was talking to this guy, and he asked me,

02:08:14.260 and I was like, I looked at him, I was like, well, screw it, man, why not?

02:08:17.060 And I told him, I was like, yeah, I absolutely love her.

02:08:19.680 And she contacted me after that.

02:08:22.560 Oh, yeah.

02:08:22.960 First time I've got to talk to her since 2006.

02:08:26.740 Yeah.

02:08:27.160 And just sent me a message, and I told her, I was like, I'd like the opportunity to apologize

02:08:30.960 to you.

02:08:31.560 That's it.

02:08:32.480 Uh-huh.

02:08:32.760 I'm sorry I did everything to you.

02:08:34.460 Uh-huh.

02:08:34.800 So, uh, but she's doing good and everything, from what I can tell.

02:08:38.680 Um, I manipulated her, too.

02:08:41.820 So I got, uh, Secret Service, they arrest me.

02:08:45.800 Spend three months in a county jail.

02:08:49.080 They get me out.

02:08:50.940 And the night they get me out, I go back into committing crime again.

02:08:54.160 Why did they get you out?

02:08:55.640 To work with them.

02:08:56.940 I see.

02:08:57.660 I see.

02:08:58.060 So you were making an arrangement at this time.

02:08:59.720 Yeah, I was talking to the food chain.

02:09:00.260 To work with them in what way?

02:09:01.260 So they get me, uh, I'm arrested February 8th of 2005, three weeks before I'm supposed

02:09:05.600 to marry this, this, the Elizabeth.

02:09:07.880 And, um, I mean, I was head over heels with her.

02:09:12.100 I get arrested.

02:09:13.040 She doesn't know I'm breaking the law.

02:09:14.280 She finds out pretty quickly once they search the house and, uh, throw me in a county jail.

02:09:19.520 They let me sit there a week.

02:09:21.060 Two agents fly in from New Jersey, pull me out.

02:09:23.420 We got your laptop.

02:09:24.440 I'm like, yeah.

02:09:25.240 Got anything on it?

02:09:26.180 Yeah.

02:09:26.500 You're going to be charged for it.

02:09:27.540 I figured that.

02:09:28.460 Then they asked me, is there anything you can do for us?

02:09:30.540 In my exact words, you let me get back with Elizabeth.

02:09:32.700 I'll do whatever you want me to do.

02:09:34.340 And they said, we're going to get you out.

02:09:36.820 So they let me sit there for three months to get a taste of it.

02:09:39.400 Uh-huh.

02:09:40.180 Get out after three months.

02:09:41.660 First phone call I make is Elizabeth.

02:09:43.820 I'm out.

02:09:44.780 She's like, I'll be there.

02:09:46.320 So it was midnight, standing outside in the parking lot, agent beside of me. 0.99

02:09:50.000 She had a friend that owned a limo company, pulls up in a damn limo, pops the trunk, gets 1.00

02:09:55.680 out, walks around to the back, gets these two storage containers out with my clothes, 0.99

02:09:59.060 drops them, comes over, hugs me, call me later, leaves.

02:10:04.580 I'm sitting there bawling by this point in time.

02:10:06.920 Agent looks at me.

02:10:07.640 He's like, is that your fiance?

02:10:08.880 I'm like, yeah.

02:10:09.420 He's like, I am so sorry.

02:10:10.720 I'm like, yeah.

02:10:11.300 So I didn't have any, I had $30 for my name at that point.

02:10:15.520 He, uh, he paid out of his pocket to put me in a hotel.

02:10:19.480 As soon as he leaves, I take that $30, walk to Walmart, buy a prepaid debit card so I can

02:10:24.800 start back in tax fraud.

02:10:26.600 Then I call Elizabeth, beg her to get back, and I lay these lies on her.

02:10:30.520 I'm like, hey, it's going to be fine.

02:10:31.740 I'm not going to do any prison time.

02:10:33.200 You've seen that Frank Abagnale movie, haven't you?

02:10:35.020 Catch me if you can.

02:10:35.720 I'm that guy.

02:10:37.320 And she leaves that.

02:10:39.400 Don't tell her I'm back from any crime.

02:10:40.640 I'm like, hey, it'll be just fine.

02:10:42.580 So I move her from, uh, Charleston to Columbia, South Carolina, where the field office is.

02:10:49.500 And my job was to work four to six hours a night, uh, consult with the secret service,

02:10:54.280 whoever they bring in to teach them about cybercrime.

02:10:56.860 Also target individuals for potential arrest.

02:10:59.700 Now, were they paying you for this?

02:11:01.280 They were, uh, they were paying $350 a week.

02:11:03.360 Plus they were paying rent, all the utilities.

02:11:05.700 Right.

02:11:06.020 So nothing compared to what you have been making.

02:11:07.720 Nothing compared.

02:11:08.180 But you have, do you still have money in Estonia at this point?

02:11:10.640 I do, but I can't get it.

02:11:13.020 Okay.

02:11:13.560 Well, that's the problem with having money in Estonia.

02:11:14.800 That's the money that would be it all the way over there.

02:11:16.520 I can't get it.

02:11:17.600 So, um, start, uh, what happens is, is four to six hours a night.

02:11:26.520 When I'm online, I'm, I'm really fast for things.

02:11:29.220 I'll have 20, 30 windows open.

02:11:30.860 I'm bouncing between them all the time.

02:11:32.760 Now they've got Camtasia and Spectra Pro on my machine.

02:11:36.360 So they've got me on a laptop hooked up, hooked up to a 50 inch plasma monitor on the wall outside internet line.

02:11:42.380 They are two agents in the room at all times with a South Carolina law enforcement official.

02:11:46.780 They've got their desktop computer literally next to mine, outside line as well.

02:11:52.600 For the first two to three weeks, they're diligent.

02:11:55.260 They're paying attention to everything, asking questions, everything else.

02:11:58.380 After that, they get bored because how could you not be?

02:12:01.220 You don't even understand what's going on.

02:12:02.700 Right, right, right.

02:12:03.680 So they start, there was a site, there used to be this site called flashyourrack.com.

02:12:09.340 They start looking at women who are exposing their breasts and rank them on a scale of one to ten.

02:12:15.240 And they spend most of their nights doing that.

02:12:17.460 So I'm sitting there going, nobody's paying attention to me.

02:12:19.900 All the data every night's going on a DVD.

02:12:23.020 Why not?

02:12:24.120 So I start breaking the law.

02:12:33.680 We're going, nobody's paying attention to me.

02:12:52.520 Thank you.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - December 18, 2023

406. The Man Behind the Dark Web ｜ Brett Johnson

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