The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

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00:00:57.420 Hello everyone. Today I have the privilege of talking to Mr. Terence Keeley.

00:01:14.440 Terry was a speaker at the recent ARC conference in London in the business stream.

00:01:18.960 He's an expert on so-called ESG investing, of which he is quite skeptical.

00:01:23.740 Perhaps the world's most foremost skeptic, all things considered.

00:01:27.620 We talked about the idea of ethical investing, exactly what that means, the perils, pitfalls, and promises of pursuing so-called ethical investing strategies, investment strategies.

00:01:40.120 We talked about the necessity of formulating a positive vision for the future, financial and otherwise,

00:01:44.980 and delved into the details of the 2008 financial crisis, and the role played in that by the blindness, willful and otherwise,

00:01:54.260 of people who were responsible for managing the world's money.

00:01:57.800 Welcome to the discussion.

00:02:00.220 So, Terry, let's start this out with, I'd like to ask you some questions about your experience at ARC.

00:02:05.700 Maybe you could tell everybody watching and listening what you experienced there and what the consequences for you generally were with regard to the conference as a whole,

00:02:15.680 before we turn our attention to the specific topics that you addressed in the panel that you participated in in London.

00:02:23.840 Well, as you remember, Jordan, we met just this summer at Heather Higgins' home,

00:02:27.200 and we ended up having a very interesting conversation on the role of business and finance in fashioning a better world.

00:02:33.380 And you kindly extended an invitation to me to be part of an ESG panel.

00:02:38.420 But what I didn't realize in accepting that invitation was that I was going to be in the company of 1,500 wonderful people from how many?

00:02:47.560 60 countries?

00:02:48.720 I can't remember.

00:02:49.080 70, 72 countries.

00:02:50.700 72 countries with a very like mind.

00:02:54.680 And that is, how can we tell a better story and get humanity on a better path for the very severe challenges that lie in the decades ahead?

00:03:04.380 And I have to say, you know, through you and to all of the other organizers, I just have a profound sense of gratitude.

00:03:11.020 I felt, frankly, like I was coming home.

00:03:14.660 I live in a world where I have to be more careful with you about your pronouns than you have to be with me about my religious beliefs.

00:03:22.740 And yet I found in London that I was with many like-minded people who share a reverence for God and a reverence for humanity

00:03:31.560 and a great desire to keep the planet on the right path, a sustainable path, but a path of growth and greater inclusivity.

00:03:40.780 And the way you and Philippa and others brought together the themes of art, music, poetry, religion, as well as business themes, political themes.

00:03:54.060 It was just a huge privilege for me in many ways.

00:03:58.120 And I don't know what the status is for many of your listeners, but it's difficult to be a conservative in America today.

00:04:04.940 You don't really have a political party.

00:04:06.640 You don't really have a common home to go to.

00:04:11.340 And at ARC in London, I felt I was with a global community of like believers, Jordan.

00:04:17.120 And I came through very, very hopeful.

00:04:20.380 Two weeks earlier, I had been at Mitt Romney's E2 conference.

00:04:23.240 I don't know if you know, but Mitt Romney sponsors an annual event in Park City.

00:04:28.660 E2 stands for Enthusiasts and Experts.

00:04:31.320 And I felt similarly there that, you know, again, men and women of faith who have a very deep concern for humanity,

00:04:40.500 a very deep concern for the trajectory that we're on, but have solutions and ideas for a better way forward,

00:04:47.420 for, as I wrote in that article for Real Clear Politics, a better story.

00:04:51.360 Maybe I can share a very personal story already, which is that my niece who went to Stanford and graduated the 4.0

00:05:00.900 is one of many thousands, if not to say hundreds of thousands, of individuals who are in their mid-20s

00:05:09.060 who don't want to have children, Jordan, don't want to have children,

00:05:12.740 because how could you imagine bringing children into a world when on January 1st, 2050,

00:05:19.000 the whole world's going to blow up because of climate change?

00:05:22.100 How could we be so thoughtless?

00:05:24.120 And so to have a clear narrative, a much better narrative, about how our future is not disastrous.

00:05:32.660 Our future is up to us.

00:05:35.100 We're going to get the globe that we deserve.

00:05:38.080 And quite candidly, with greater mindfulness, it's going to be the greatest possible human achievement ever.

00:05:45.340 And so that's how I felt coming out of London and how I felt with the great program that you and your colleagues put together.

00:05:50.620 Do you think, this takes us off our topic a bit, but I'm going to go there anyways.

00:05:57.540 I mean, you stressed two things that struck you when you were at the ARC conference,

00:06:02.260 and that was that you were surrounded by people of faith.

00:06:05.960 And you could read that religiously to some degree,

00:06:09.380 but you could also read it as being surrounded by people who are willing to have the courage

00:06:15.180 to put forward a positive vision of the future, because that's a form of faith too.

00:06:19.680 And it's very important for people who are watching and listening to understand that you can't take a step into the future without faith,

00:06:26.640 because you can't predict with anything approximating certainty what's going to happen as you move forward.

00:06:32.980 And so you have to adopt an attitude a priori that sees you through regardless of what happens.

00:06:39.040 And you can adopt an attitude of corrosive cynicism and bitterness and pessimism and defend yourself that way.

00:06:45.940 And there are times when that's appropriate.

00:06:48.140 But as a general stance towards the world, it tends to be counterproductive.

00:06:53.020 And it's also the case that what a fragmented or misplaced faith, religious faith even,

00:07:00.440 seems to have as a consequence the development of something like an anti-human stance,

00:07:06.400 as things that aren't human, like nature itself, become worshipped instead of what's properly put first and foremost.

00:07:13.380 And there is a remarkable concordance, I would say, between the religious belief that each person is a divine locus of being, let's say,

00:07:23.640 and made in the image of God, and a pro-human stance.

00:07:26.940 And one of the things that's really terrified me about the environmentalist movement,

00:07:31.460 which purports to be about the sanctity and security of the planet,

00:07:36.240 is easily transformed into something that is clearly and demonstrably anti-human.

00:07:42.200 Like, I've watched in absolute open-mouthed amazement over the last 10 years as the Greens and the radical leftists,

00:07:51.420 when push comes to shove, immediately demonstrate their willingness to sacrifice the poor to their planetary salvation delusions.

00:08:00.960 And it's so interesting, eh? Because in principle, the left has been the party that puts forward the demand for compassion

00:08:09.060 towards the marginalized and the oppressed, economically and otherwise.

00:08:12.880 But man, when you stack up the oppressed and marginalized against the hypothetical interests of the planet as such,

00:08:20.660 the lefties will sacrifice the poor in a tenth of a second.

00:08:24.420 And they do that not least with their insistence that energy costs have to skyrocket,

00:08:29.200 and consumption come down, which to me is tantamount to saying,

00:08:33.440 when consumption comes down, the poor starve.

00:08:37.860 That's a necessary consequence of decreased consumption.

00:08:41.260 And anyone who thinks otherwise is either willfully blind or ignorant beyond any,

00:08:46.720 what would you say, any morally acceptable degree.

00:08:51.800 So, all right, so it was very...

00:08:54.200 Let me take a moment to respond to that, though, Jordan,

00:08:57.860 because it's absolutely clear that everyone implicitly or explicitly has a religious belief.

00:09:04.100 For some people, their religious belief is that there is no religious belief.

00:09:07.680 But that then becomes its own religion.

00:09:10.320 That is to say, some form of massive moral relativism becomes what, in fact, is what they worshipped.

00:09:17.800 I stood in awe of you speaking on the stage at a couple of times about Jacob's Ladder and the Book of Job.

00:09:25.900 And, you know, Jordan, what's fascinating about you, and I know this is your podcast,

00:09:30.460 but priests, and I come from a Catholic background.

00:09:33.700 I worked for Pope Francis.

00:09:34.880 I co-chaired in the Vatican Financial Reform Commission.

00:09:37.220 I have quite a Catholic background.

00:09:40.120 But priests cannot put people in pews, and yet you can fill the O2 arena with tens of thousands of young men

00:09:47.740 to talk about the Book of Job and talk about Jacob's Ladder and talk about the uphill struggle

00:09:53.020 as being the moral struggle of our times.

00:09:55.180 I just congratulate you and your colleagues, and I know you give a lot of credit to those around you as well,

00:10:03.060 for just being able, Jordan, to enunciate this message in a way where it resonates to those who are genuinely lost,

00:10:11.040 to those who are genuinely looking for a roadmap of how to have a better and more productive life.

00:10:17.320 And I want to establish early on this call, I'm not a climate denier.

00:10:21.380 I do believe that there are human influences that are very much putting our land, our air, and our water at risk.

00:10:29.660 By the way, the planet has never had 8 billion inhabitants before.

00:10:33.000 We're about to be 10 billion inhabitants.

00:10:35.060 We're going to have to find ways to behave much more sustainably.

00:10:39.360 But I was looking through my book of notes from the ARC Conference,

00:10:42.680 and one of the things that I wrote down is it's not the climate deniers, it's the trade-off deniers.

00:10:48.600 And even in Laudato Si, in the papal encyclical written by Pope Francis on the climate crisis,

00:10:56.300 he is very clear, Jordan, very clear, that there are trade-offs, that we need to have more prosperity.

00:11:03.200 There are too many people that are left behind.

00:11:05.320 The vast majority of human beings still use less electricity than one refrigerator uses in a year in the West.

00:11:11.760 We need to find ways to improve access, improve availability, improve abundance.

00:11:19.740 And we've just finished this COP28 conference this morning, as you know,

00:11:23.100 and they've come off and finally been able to say, let's phase out fossil fuels.

00:11:28.060 But they're very quick, right?

00:11:30.500 They're very quick to add that this must be done in a just way.

00:11:33.620 Well, if it's done in a just way, the only way we're going to be able to get ourselves off of fossil fuels

00:11:39.320 is by massively increasing nuclear, by massively increasing some other sources.

00:11:45.620 And that is not plausible from now to 2050.

00:11:49.260 We are simply going to be continuing to utilize this mix of fossil fuels that we're dependent on

00:11:55.520 for reasons of justice, for reasons of human need, for reasons of human necessity.

00:12:01.700 And as you pointed out and others at the conference, if you look around the globe,

00:12:05.280 the wealthiest countries are the ones that actually have the cleanest energy mix.

00:12:10.000 So we must prioritize continued economic growth.

00:12:14.880 This is the mantra that I come to in my book, Repleatedly.

00:12:18.320 Yes, we need more economic growth, but it needs to be more inclusive,

00:12:22.340 and it does need to be more sustainable.

00:12:24.060 And I am a member of the church that says,

00:12:28.540 let's optimize between these various trade-offs,

00:12:31.720 growth and cleanliness and sustainability.

00:12:34.620 There are trade-offs, and we're going to have to navigate them.

00:12:36.720 It's multivariable calculus.

00:12:38.500 It's not as easy as the only thing that matters is net zero by 2050.

00:12:42.860 It's not the only thing that matters.

00:12:44.740 Many things matter.

00:12:46.360 Well, that only thing that matters narrative,

00:12:50.020 I've been thinking that through in some detail.

00:12:52.540 And so part of what we're facing on the pathological culture war front

00:12:59.380 is oversimplification that occurs for two reasons.

00:13:03.660 And the first reason is purely factual,

00:13:06.480 is that there are human effects on the environment,

00:13:10.560 some of which are deleterious.

00:13:12.080 I was struck most particularly when investigating such effects

00:13:17.060 on the effects of unrestricted coastal fishing on fish stocks,

00:13:24.120 because I think that's something we've done particularly disastrously.

00:13:28.140 There's a variety of problems like that,

00:13:30.020 but the important thing is there's a variety,

00:13:32.200 and that the solutions to those problems are actually,

00:13:36.540 well, they're multidimensional and complex.

00:13:38.280 And you can collapse all that into a single theory,

00:13:41.920 which is that there's one fundamental environmental emergency

00:13:47.680 that's climate-related,

00:13:49.980 and that can be attributed more or less solely to carbon dioxide.

00:13:55.260 And so the temptation there is to take this overwhelming complexity

00:13:59.940 on the factual side

00:14:01.160 and reduce it to the kind of simple mantra

00:14:04.620 that anyone can master really in about 15 minutes.

00:14:08.180 And then you're done with that whole problem.

00:14:10.060 It's like, well, no, the important thing is climate,

00:14:12.580 and the solution is carbon dioxide reduction.

00:14:16.200 It's like, no, no, the benefit to you

00:14:18.420 is that you don't have to think anymore.

00:14:20.560 But there's an additional benefit to the oversimplification,

00:14:24.060 which I think is even more nefarious.

00:14:25.920 And it's analogous to the oversimplification

00:14:30.500 that's part and parcel of the victim-victimizer narrative.

00:14:33.760 You know, if you view the world through a lens of power

00:14:35.940 and you assume that every human relationship

00:14:38.000 can be understood in terms of victim and victimizer,

00:14:41.140 then all you have to do as a moral agent

00:14:43.680 is claim your allyship with the victim,

00:14:46.800 and you've solved your moral problem.

00:14:49.220 And the same thing applies on the environmental front,

00:14:51.320 is once you've established that carbon dioxide is the villain,

00:14:54.840 then you can make yourself not only a moral agent,

00:14:58.220 but something akin to the Redeemer himself

00:15:00.340 by merely proclaiming your, what would you say,

00:15:05.640 your moral commitment to the goal of carbon dioxide reduction.

00:15:09.260 And so you eliminate having to think in the factual world,

00:15:12.600 and you eliminate actually having to do all the work

00:15:15.460 that accompanies genuine moral effort

00:15:17.260 by swallowing the environmentalist narrative.

00:15:19.860 And then there's even a darker part of it,

00:15:21.860 as far as I'm concerned.

00:15:22.920 And this is where things go from merely ignorant and blind

00:15:26.700 to outright malevolent,

00:15:28.220 which is that once you've identified the problem

00:15:31.460 and the moral solution,

00:15:32.900 you can also take aim at anyone

00:15:34.960 who hypothetically stands in the way,

00:15:37.200 and you can demonize them.

00:15:39.260 And as a consequence of your demonization,

00:15:42.000 you can let the worst elements in your character

00:15:46.480 have full reign in relationship

00:15:49.620 to how you treat those people.

00:15:51.540 And you certainly see that with the victim-victimizer narrative

00:15:54.360 that's being played out with Hamas at the moment.

00:15:56.620 The Jews are the victimizers,

00:15:58.640 the Palestinians are the victims,

00:16:00.460 and so that means the Jews are properly subject

00:16:03.860 to whatever punishment you feel inclined to mete out.

00:16:06.780 It's the same with those who hypothetically

00:16:09.240 are compromising the environment.

00:16:11.940 And so it's such an ugly mess,

00:16:14.040 because it's oversimplification factually,

00:16:16.380 it's ridiculous reductionism on the moral side,

00:16:19.400 and then it's the provision of a world

00:16:21.940 that allows your desire for vengeful,

00:16:26.540 resentment-driven, hypothetical justice

00:16:29.640 to have full reign

00:16:31.580 over those you deem to be enemies of you and the planet.

00:16:36.340 A very, very toxic combination.

00:16:38.700 And so that's the sort of thing,

00:16:40.280 it's that combination, I believe,

00:16:41.880 that actually presents the apocalyptic danger,

00:16:44.000 and not whatever other problems,

00:16:47.120 severe as they are,

00:16:48.020 that might confront us on the environmental side.

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00:18:29.960 Well, I have to give, again,

00:18:32.020 credit to the ARC organizers

00:18:33.580 because I think you had

00:18:34.700 the most definitive speaker,

00:18:36.340 Stephen Koonin,

00:18:37.520 talk about the science.

00:18:39.420 And when I'm in,

00:18:41.400 I just spoke at a climate symposium

00:18:43.360 at Harvard two weeks ago,

00:18:45.620 you know, Jordan,

00:18:46.460 and I always try to present facts calmly.

00:18:49.640 There have been five mass extinction events

00:18:52.100 on planet Earth

00:18:53.640 in the last 500 million years.

00:18:56.160 Every single one of them

00:18:57.160 were caused by the planet

00:18:58.380 cooling too quickly.

00:19:00.220 That's how we lost the dinosaurs,

00:19:01.580 as you know.

00:19:02.060 You can actually give a litany of statistics,

00:19:04.780 some of which I've gotten

00:19:05.740 from Bjorn Lomborg over the years

00:19:07.780 from the Copenhagen think tank.

00:19:10.940 The polar bear population

00:19:12.520 is five times what it was 50 years ago.

00:19:15.220 Total sea rise in the last 100 years

00:19:17.560 has only been 23 centimeters.

00:19:20.080 23 centimeters.

00:19:21.460 Meanwhile, a lot of these atolls

00:19:23.460 in these island nations,

00:19:24.640 they've grown 123 centimeters.

00:19:26.900 Many of them are actually

00:19:27.740 in better position than they were.

00:19:29.560 We are having less violent storms.

00:19:32.380 But I think that the Stephen Kuhnian argument,

00:19:35.520 which is really an important one,

00:19:36.820 is yes, human beings have an impact.

00:19:39.980 Yes, carbon dioxide matters.

00:19:42.000 But it matters at such a small level

00:19:44.760 relative to many other factors

00:19:46.740 that are actually impacting the climate,

00:19:49.040 many of which we don't understand.

00:19:50.560 So where I take that,

00:19:53.880 and I try to not oversimplify the climate mess,

00:19:57.820 but I always say that

00:19:58.500 it's a complicated two-part problem.

00:20:00.740 One, it's a collective action problem.

00:20:02.920 That is to say,

00:20:04.220 the greenhouse gases

00:20:06.300 that are emitted by three countries only,

00:20:08.320 China, India, and Russia,

00:20:10.120 right now are two and a half times that

00:20:12.520 emitted by the entire North American continent

00:20:15.660 and European Union combined.

00:20:17.720 So until India, China, and Russia

00:20:19.880 are as serious about greenhouse gases

00:20:22.180 as the rest of us are supposed to be,

00:20:24.240 let's not kid ourselves.

00:20:25.600 We still have a greenhouse gas problem.

00:20:27.540 And then the other one

00:20:28.300 is the Laudato Si' Pope Francis.

00:20:30.540 This is a multivariable calculus problem.

00:20:33.460 What we have is people

00:20:34.620 who are denying that there are trade-offs.

00:20:37.160 Let's recognize that there are trade-offs,

00:20:39.060 and let's have a calm,

00:20:41.200 inclusive, fact-based conversation

00:20:44.260 about what's the best thing to do.

00:20:45.980 I brought a prop today.

00:20:47.800 This is a plastic bottle, right?

00:20:50.060 It has water in it.

00:20:51.220 Well, as I was telling the crew before we started,

00:20:53.760 this bottle today,

00:20:55.320 Jordan has one-third the amount of plastic

00:20:57.280 that it had in it three years ago.

00:20:59.500 That's not because of an ESG regulation.

00:21:01.860 That's because it's cheaper to make it

00:21:03.500 with less plastic,

00:21:04.140 and you can do it with less plastic.

00:21:05.960 This is the kind of progress

00:21:07.480 that is being made

00:21:08.560 because we are more mindful.

00:21:11.040 Consumers are changing

00:21:12.160 their investment decisions.

00:21:13.880 We are seeing people

00:21:14.740 that want to have greater sustainability.

00:21:17.560 We can look at Patagonia,

00:21:19.520 this company that now only does clothes

00:21:21.820 that if you bring them back,

00:21:22.860 they repair them for you.

00:21:24.300 Patagonia's products

00:21:25.160 are flying off the shelves.

00:21:26.840 People want to have a sustainable future.

00:21:29.480 This is one of the reasons

00:21:30.640 why we can be optimistic

00:21:31.960 about humanity's future.

00:21:34.240 Jordan and I,

00:21:34.940 I don't downplay human influences.

00:21:37.200 We have to worry about our air,

00:21:39.000 land, and water, for sure.

00:21:40.520 10 billion people on the planet.

00:21:41.880 There were 1 billion in 1800,

00:21:43.700 2 billion in 1900,

00:21:45.420 4 billion in 1985,

00:21:47.400 8 billion in 2022,

00:21:49.340 and we'll peak out at 10 billion

00:21:50.860 by 2073, according to The Lancet.

00:21:53.420 How are we all going to stay here

00:21:55.600 on this planet together,

00:21:58.100 allowing everyone to achieve

00:21:59.300 their full potential?

00:22:00.420 We're going to have to live differently.

00:22:02.480 We're also going to have to live

00:22:03.600 in an era of aging.

00:22:05.860 In 2035,

00:22:07.280 there will be more people

00:22:08.160 over the age of 65

00:22:09.380 than under the age of 18.

00:22:11.500 We've never had that circumstance

00:22:13.560 before, Jordan.

00:22:14.580 We're going to have to find ways

00:22:16.280 to live differently,

00:22:18.020 more inclusively,

00:22:19.160 and more sustainably

00:22:20.260 while we continue to grow.

00:22:22.840 And all of that is possible.

00:22:24.240 I wrote a book on it,

00:22:25.140 and I'm just so incredibly optimistic

00:22:27.920 about humanity's future,

00:22:29.600 and the ARC Conference

00:22:30.680 really helped, for me,

00:22:32.140 underscore a lot of those themes.

00:22:33.780 Well, and so one of the things

00:22:35.320 that we could derive from,

00:22:37.820 let's say,

00:22:38.740 your discussion of Patagonia

00:22:40.260 is that these new ways

00:22:42.320 that we're going to be required

00:22:45.320 to find to live

00:22:46.200 need to be offered to people

00:22:48.160 as an invitation

00:22:49.740 and not forced on them.

00:22:51.280 And so here's one of the things

00:22:52.720 that happened

00:22:53.300 in the aftermath

00:22:54.000 of the ARC Conference

00:22:55.080 that I found extremely interesting.

00:22:57.000 And so we had quite a range

00:22:58.580 of speakers

00:22:59.300 and quite a range of approach

00:23:03.500 from speakers

00:23:04.240 and political attitude.

00:23:06.100 And what happened was that

00:23:07.600 the speakers

00:23:08.860 who were the most political

00:23:10.560 and who were the most tendentious

00:23:13.160 and accusatory,

00:23:14.360 let's say,

00:23:14.860 in their approach,

00:23:16.460 produced the speeches

00:23:17.360 that got by far

00:23:18.400 the least attention.

00:23:19.120 Who are you thinking of?

00:23:20.960 McCarthy.

00:23:21.600 McCarthy.

00:23:22.080 Okay, yeah.

00:23:22.800 Kevin McCarthy.

00:23:23.220 Particularly.

00:23:23.920 And this isn't an insult.

00:23:25.540 You know, he's a politician.

00:23:27.100 But, okay.

00:23:28.540 But what happens,

00:23:29.700 it's so interesting to see,

00:23:31.080 is because the talks

00:23:33.160 that really offered

00:23:35.000 a invitational,

00:23:37.100 metaphysical vision

00:23:38.360 got exponentially more views

00:23:40.840 in the aftermath

00:23:41.600 of the ARC Conference

00:23:42.780 that's, yeah, yeah.

00:23:43.680 And so, but I think

00:23:46.040 this is very much

00:23:46.740 well worth noting

00:23:47.660 is that,

00:23:48.420 as you point out,

00:23:49.880 people do understand

00:23:51.180 quite broadly

00:23:51.940 that we have to live

00:23:53.220 in something approximating

00:23:54.600 harmony

00:23:55.000 with the broad

00:23:55.840 natural environment.

00:23:57.040 And people are interested

00:23:58.800 in finding ways

00:23:59.980 to do that.

00:24:00.780 But if they're forced

00:24:02.620 or manipulated

00:24:03.400 into doing that,

00:24:04.840 which I think is,

00:24:06.180 it tends to be

00:24:06.960 the approach

00:24:07.560 of organizations

00:24:08.400 like the WEF

00:24:09.980 and the UN

00:24:10.480 and even the European Union

00:24:11.920 to a large degree,

00:24:12.940 if they're forced

00:24:13.720 to do that

00:24:14.320 or connived into it

00:24:15.420 or even nudged into it,

00:24:17.640 which is a very manipulative

00:24:18.880 way of going about things,

00:24:20.380 they're going to resist.

00:24:21.540 They're going to fight back.

00:24:22.700 And we're not going

00:24:23.420 to get anywhere.

00:24:24.160 Whereas if people

00:24:24.920 are invited

00:24:25.760 and offered

00:24:28.100 an alternative

00:24:28.840 that they can

00:24:30.140 undertake voluntarily,

00:24:31.860 the probability

00:24:32.660 that they're going

00:24:33.500 to first attend

00:24:34.540 and then comply

00:24:36.320 is extraordinarily high.

00:24:37.560 Not comply,

00:24:38.380 that's not the right word,

00:24:39.340 but participate.

00:24:41.260 You know,

00:24:41.440 you see this

00:24:42.160 in psychotherapy.

00:24:43.500 It's a psychotherapeutic truism

00:24:45.040 is that

00:24:45.560 if you are

00:24:48.720 setting up a situation

00:24:50.940 where someone

00:24:51.560 is pursuing

00:24:52.280 positive behavioral change,

00:24:54.280 they have to determine

00:24:55.600 the direction

00:24:56.220 of that change

00:24:57.100 and come to develop

00:24:59.000 and accept

00:24:59.560 the strategies voluntarily

00:25:01.080 or all they do

00:25:02.760 is kick back

00:25:03.480 in all sorts of ways

00:25:04.460 that are counterproductive

00:25:05.520 and produce resistance.

00:25:07.360 But it was so interesting

00:25:08.340 to see that unfold

00:25:09.340 at the ARC conference

00:25:10.340 because the speakers

00:25:11.740 who were visionary

00:25:12.640 and invitational

00:25:13.760 had by far

00:25:15.140 the biggest effect.

00:25:16.060 And they really set

00:25:16.720 the tone for the conference, too.

00:25:18.360 And so we really tried

00:25:19.500 to learn that lesson, right?

00:25:21.760 This has to be an invitation.

00:25:23.280 That could bring us

00:25:24.200 to our discussion

00:25:25.660 of ESGs.

00:25:26.680 Do you want to outline

00:25:27.320 for people watching?

00:25:28.200 I'd just love to give

00:25:29.680 an exclamation point

00:25:30.580 to some of the points

00:25:31.440 you're making, though,

00:25:32.400 Jordan,

00:25:32.880 because you worry

00:25:34.600 about a top-down solution

00:25:36.080 and there's every reason

00:25:37.300 for you to worry

00:25:38.060 about top-down solutions.

00:25:39.160 We see it right now.

00:25:40.520 I don't know if you know,

00:25:41.260 but clean energy stocks

00:25:42.660 this year

00:25:43.440 are down 25%

00:25:45.280 while the stock market

00:25:46.280 is up 25%.

00:25:47.760 We've been forcing

00:25:48.960 so much money

00:25:49.820 into some clean energy solution,

00:25:51.940 windmills off the coast

00:25:53.100 of Maine

00:25:53.700 and others,

00:25:54.640 that are simply

00:25:55.480 not working out.

00:25:56.200 Similarly,

00:25:57.420 all these incentives

00:25:58.900 to go buy electric vehicles

00:26:00.700 are not working.

00:26:02.180 So there's General Motors,

00:26:03.520 Ford, Stellantis.

00:26:04.720 Yes, they're worried

00:26:05.300 about a UAW strike,

00:26:06.580 but they're even more worried

00:26:07.660 about the fact

00:26:08.300 that California

00:26:09.460 is mandating them

00:26:10.540 to create electric vehicles

00:26:11.960 that people are not buying Jordan.

00:26:15.080 People are not buying those cars.

00:26:17.080 So what are we going to do?

00:26:17.880 Have a bunch of EVs

00:26:19.240 out in parking lots

00:26:20.840 that nobody's willing to buy

00:26:22.220 and think that we're solving

00:26:23.160 our global climate crisis?

00:26:25.380 We're not.

00:26:25.960 So there is this danger,

00:26:27.240 as you say,

00:26:27.980 as you enunciate,

00:26:29.200 of top-down solutions

00:26:30.680 that are not being met

00:26:32.100 by bottom-up.

00:26:32.720 And this is the beauty

00:26:34.220 of the markets.

00:26:35.380 You know,

00:26:35.660 Friedrich Hayek

00:26:36.620 has a lot to say to us still.

00:26:38.600 You know,

00:26:39.000 I was thinking

00:26:39.740 as I was preparing

00:26:40.600 for the show this morning

00:26:41.800 that God himself

00:26:43.760 could not create

00:26:44.900 a better system

00:26:45.780 than the free markets.

00:26:46.860 And the reason is

00:26:47.840 that the free markets

00:26:48.860 consist of billions

00:26:50.800 and billions

00:26:51.880 of decisions

00:26:52.680 that are being made

00:26:53.740 by consumers

00:26:54.880 out of their own free will

00:26:56.400 that are ultimately

00:26:57.260 going to drive

00:26:58.260 where we're going

00:26:59.300 to end up.

00:27:00.020 And it's so important

00:27:01.020 to remember

00:27:01.280 that consumers'

00:27:03.160 attitudes change.

00:27:04.740 Consumers are going

00:27:05.680 to want to have,

00:27:06.680 for example,

00:27:07.560 Louis Vuitton

00:27:08.140 is right now

00:27:08.720 designing

00:27:09.200 all of these new

00:27:10.880 luxury leather goods

00:27:12.920 that are made

00:27:13.400 out of mushrooms

00:27:14.420 so that they can say

00:27:15.640 this next very luxurious bag

00:27:18.440 is carbon negative.

00:27:20.560 And I promise you

00:27:21.420 they're going to sell

00:27:22.000 a lot of those bags

00:27:22.960 to people out there

00:27:23.820 who really want

00:27:24.900 to be able to say,

00:27:25.700 look,

00:27:25.940 I have a carbon negative bag.

00:27:28.580 The beauty

00:27:30.340 of the free markets

00:27:32.100 governed by men

00:27:34.260 and women of conscience

00:27:35.260 who are mindful

00:27:36.680 with their consumption patterns

00:27:38.920 and investment patterns,

00:27:40.560 and that's why I say

00:27:41.260 mindfulness.

00:27:42.280 We're going to get

00:27:42.860 the world we deserve,

00:27:44.420 either in this world

00:27:45.120 or the next.

00:27:46.600 Greater mindfulness

00:27:47.520 will lead

00:27:48.420 to greater outcomes.

00:27:50.400 But we should

00:27:51.300 let the markets,

00:27:52.260 let the markets work

00:27:53.280 because they are better

00:27:54.380 at delivering the future

00:27:56.760 than anybody

00:27:57.220 who's guessing

00:27:57.880 what the future will be.

00:27:59.160 We're going to have

00:27:59.820 way too many EVs.

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00:29:17.400 Let's delve into that

00:29:18.720 a little bit.

00:29:19.420 So, the technical reason

00:29:21.420 for that,

00:29:22.420 so that everybody watching

00:29:23.580 and listening understands,

00:29:25.180 when people promote

00:29:26.280 the free market,

00:29:27.160 that can be

00:29:27.900 an ideological promotion,

00:29:29.660 or it can be

00:29:30.880 an observation

00:29:32.140 of sheer computational power.

00:29:34.400 So, imagine that you're

00:29:36.080 trying to make

00:29:38.500 pricing decisions

00:29:39.520 and purchasing decisions,

00:29:40.740 which you have to do

00:29:41.660 all the time

00:29:42.320 in this world

00:29:42.920 when you're trading

00:29:43.640 one thing off

00:29:44.400 against another.

00:29:46.020 You could imagine

00:29:47.020 either that you set up

00:29:48.300 a system,

00:29:48.920 just think about it

00:29:49.620 computationally,

00:29:50.380 you could set up

00:29:50.940 a situation

00:29:51.640 where there are

00:29:52.880 literally millions

00:29:53.880 or even billions

00:29:55.220 of local computers

00:29:56.640 gathering data

00:29:57.680 about local circumstances,

00:29:59.480 making trade-offs

00:30:00.340 with regard to

00:30:02.380 everything that's

00:30:03.220 available to them

00:30:04.120 in terms of data

00:30:04.980 in that local environment,

00:30:06.760 and then communicating

00:30:07.960 in a network fashion

00:30:09.180 to indicate trends

00:30:10.940 and future probabilities.

00:30:13.380 So, what needs

00:30:14.180 to be produced,

00:30:14.920 for example.

00:30:15.700 Or you could replace

00:30:16.720 that by a single computer

00:30:18.200 or 10 of them

00:30:19.140 that are trying

00:30:20.140 to gather

00:30:20.780 all of that information

00:30:21.980 with no eyes

00:30:22.880 on the ground,

00:30:24.320 relying on their

00:30:25.020 hypothetical,

00:30:26.200 ideological expertise.

00:30:27.500 And that's

00:30:27.860 the central planning model.

00:30:29.260 It's like,

00:30:29.900 why the hell

00:30:30.580 would you

00:30:31.200 exchange

00:30:32.900 billions of

00:30:33.980 distributed computers

00:30:35.420 with sensory

00:30:36.540 apparatus

00:30:37.200 on the ground

00:30:38.020 for a handful

00:30:39.400 of centralized

00:30:40.480 computers

00:30:41.100 that can't

00:30:41.780 even in principle

00:30:42.600 have access

00:30:43.200 to the proper data?

00:30:44.380 It's a preposterous

00:30:45.980 claim.

00:30:46.500 It's an absurd claim.

00:30:47.520 And it's not like

00:30:48.520 there's something

00:30:49.020 magic about

00:30:49.900 the free market

00:30:50.700 except for the fact

00:30:52.240 that it's an

00:30:52.940 optimized system

00:30:54.420 of distributed

00:30:55.080 computation.

00:30:55.980 And there is no

00:30:56.600 replacing that

00:30:57.400 with centralized view.

00:30:58.780 And you do get

00:30:59.300 this problem

00:30:59.820 that you just described.

00:31:00.960 I mean,

00:31:01.480 I think with regards

00:31:02.660 to EVs,

00:31:03.340 I've wondered this

00:31:03.980 for a long time,

00:31:04.720 electric vehicles,

00:31:05.540 it's like,

00:31:06.140 we know perfectly well,

00:31:07.740 not least because

00:31:08.660 of what happened

00:31:09.360 to California

00:31:10.080 when they announced

00:31:10.920 that everybody

00:31:11.720 couldn't plug in

00:31:12.560 their electric cars

00:31:13.480 at the same time

00:31:14.380 because the grid

00:31:14.980 didn't have the capacity.

00:31:16.280 It's like,

00:31:16.720 I've been wondering,

00:31:18.060 well,

00:31:18.200 why are we being

00:31:18.880 enjoined to buy

00:31:19.640 electric cars

00:31:20.400 when we don't have

00:31:22.760 the grid power

00:31:23.420 to recharge them?

00:31:25.640 And then I thought,

00:31:26.260 oh,

00:31:26.500 well,

00:31:26.720 if the plan

00:31:27.500 is actually

00:31:28.460 like the C40 plan,

00:31:30.780 which is the plan

00:31:32.100 put forward

00:31:32.740 by a consortium

00:31:33.860 of large cities,

00:31:34.920 if the plan

00:31:35.680 is to reduce

00:31:36.400 automobile ownership

00:31:37.500 by 95% anyways,

00:31:39.360 it doesn't matter

00:31:40.420 if you force people

00:31:41.440 to buy electric cars

00:31:42.800 that no one wants

00:31:43.880 and that we won't

00:31:44.780 be able to recharge

00:31:45.480 because the bloody plan

00:31:46.720 is for people

00:31:47.560 not to have cars

00:31:48.440 at all.

00:31:48.940 Anyway.

00:31:49.460 And that's,

00:31:49.940 well,

00:31:50.820 right,

00:31:51.080 and that's such

00:31:51.680 a terrible plan

00:31:52.700 because cars,

00:31:54.880 there's very little

00:31:55.700 difference between

00:31:56.700 a car and freedom

00:31:57.820 and wealth.

00:31:58.640 It gives you

00:31:59.060 such an unbelievable

00:32:00.580 range of options

00:32:01.760 at any given time,

00:32:03.180 ridiculously efficient

00:32:04.520 use of private time.

00:32:06.180 And anybody

00:32:06.620 who objects to that,

00:32:07.800 I think,

00:32:08.240 is immediately

00:32:08.820 to be viewed

00:32:09.540 with extreme suspicion,

00:32:11.060 especially if they're

00:32:11.840 trying to implement

00:32:12.780 top-down compulsory controls.

00:32:15.500 You know,

00:32:15.700 one of our principles

00:32:16.520 at ARC is

00:32:17.180 no policy

00:32:18.620 that requires

00:32:19.560 compulsion

00:32:20.460 is optimized.

00:32:22.560 There's a mistake

00:32:23.340 in it somewhere.

00:32:24.360 You know,

00:32:24.540 that gets tricky

00:32:25.200 when you're dealing

00:32:25.780 with criminals,

00:32:26.600 you know,

00:32:26.860 because sometimes

00:32:28.020 people are in

00:32:29.180 situations where

00:32:30.020 they won't behave

00:32:31.320 socially

00:32:32.660 or in a

00:32:33.760 psychologically,

00:32:34.880 in a manner

00:32:35.280 that reflects

00:32:35.860 psychological integrity

00:32:36.980 without compulsion.

00:32:38.060 But most of the time

00:32:39.340 the rule of thumb

00:32:40.020 has to be

00:32:40.560 if I have to force

00:32:41.840 you to do something,

00:32:43.120 I'm putting forward

00:32:44.260 the proposition

00:32:45.300 improperly,

00:32:46.980 at minimum

00:32:47.640 improperly.

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00:33:57.680 Well,

00:33:58.420 as you're speaking,

00:34:00.400 you know,

00:34:01.300 I'll talk about

00:34:02.440 a couple different books

00:34:03.280 today if I'm allowed to,

00:34:04.400 but one that really

00:34:05.680 did reach me,

00:34:07.700 it was written

00:34:08.460 by Ragh Rajan,

00:34:09.500 who's a professor

00:34:10.020 of finance

00:34:10.500 at the University

00:34:11.040 of Chicago,

00:34:11.940 and it's called

00:34:12.800 The Third Pillar.

00:34:14.240 And what the thesis

00:34:15.320 that Ragh Rajan has,

00:34:16.720 he's also the former

00:34:17.360 chief economist

00:34:17.980 of the IMF

00:34:18.640 and former governor

00:34:19.360 of the Reserve Bank

00:34:20.020 of India.

00:34:20.820 But Jordan,

00:34:21.360 what his thesis is,

00:34:22.640 is that societies thrive

00:34:24.700 when they have

00:34:26.200 the three primary pillars

00:34:28.200 of societal good

00:34:30.000 in balance.

00:34:31.620 One is the markets.

00:34:33.460 If you don't have markets,

00:34:34.840 you're not driving prosperity.

00:34:36.460 The second is the state.

00:34:38.200 You need good government.

00:34:40.540 I don't know about you,

00:34:41.360 but I like getting

00:34:41.960 my driver's license on time.

00:34:43.380 I like it when

00:34:43.980 the stoplights actually work.

00:34:45.700 We need good government.

00:34:46.500 The government

00:34:47.280 that governs least

00:34:48.180 is not necessarily

00:34:49.320 the one that governs best.

00:34:50.920 And I think Canada

00:34:51.660 is an example of that.

00:34:53.120 But the third one

00:34:54.020 is actually community

00:34:55.080 or civic society.

00:34:56.980 And what the thesis

00:34:58.280 that Ragh Rajan

00:35:00.240 puts out,

00:35:00.680 I think very effectively,

00:35:01.900 is that if you have

00:35:03.600 societies that have

00:35:05.860 either one of those

00:35:07.000 out of kilter,

00:35:08.400 where markets are too strong,

00:35:10.540 then we run into

00:35:11.660 environmental problems

00:35:12.760 or we run into

00:35:13.680 issues of distribution.

00:35:14.920 We do have externalities,

00:35:17.480 negative externalities

00:35:18.480 in markets

00:35:18.920 that need to be corrected

00:35:19.880 by proper government.

00:35:21.380 But the role of community

00:35:22.800 and the role of NGOs

00:35:25.040 and the role of the volunteer sector,

00:35:28.240 the role of faith

00:35:29.100 in a community,

00:35:29.880 the role is equally important.

00:35:32.240 If societies have

00:35:33.380 any one of those missing,

00:35:34.680 they are not in optimal balance.

00:35:36.340 They tend towards

00:35:37.040 crony capitalism,

00:35:38.420 which is a topic

00:35:39.260 that Paul Marshall spoke about,

00:35:41.040 as you know,

00:35:41.560 at ARC,

00:35:41.940 or they tend towards

00:35:43.320 inefficiencies.

00:35:44.960 You have to have all three.

00:35:46.260 We need markets,

00:35:47.300 we need an optimal state,

00:35:48.820 and we need a community,

00:35:50.280 thriving NGO sector,

00:35:51.760 thriving non-for-profits,

00:35:53.260 which we do have

00:35:54.120 in the United States.

00:35:55.480 In the United States,

00:35:56.220 we could use

00:35:56.780 slightly better governments.

00:35:57.940 This is where we're falling down,

00:36:00.280 quite candidly.

00:36:01.880 You know,

00:36:02.140 I bring up Paul Marshall.

00:36:04.000 I wrote two articles

00:36:05.180 after the ARC conference,

00:36:08.220 and one was inspired

00:36:09.020 by Paul Marshall,

00:36:09.880 but not in the way

00:36:10.460 that he thinks.

00:36:11.640 He actually spoke

00:36:12.520 from the stage

00:36:13.120 about the negative impact

00:36:14.300 of Uber,

00:36:15.240 as if it had,

00:36:16.360 you know,

00:36:17.100 demolished the lives

00:36:19.020 of many livery drivers,

00:36:20.180 which it has.

00:36:20.820 It has interrupted

00:36:21.600 the lives of many livery drivers.

00:36:23.920 But Jordan,

00:36:24.620 it has vastly expanded

00:36:26.220 the market for livery driving

00:36:27.740 around the world.

00:36:28.840 There have been

00:36:29.120 4.2 billion Uber rides

00:36:32.420 since it was first,

00:36:33.500 and the number of markets,

00:36:34.960 there are 5.5 million Uber drivers

00:36:37.040 that turn on and off

00:36:39.060 when they want to go to work.

00:36:40.180 This was a wonderful

00:36:41.260 market innovation,

00:36:42.240 but it's what E.F. Schumacher

00:36:43.720 calls creative destruction.

00:36:46.620 Markets need to be destructive

00:36:48.660 just as they need

00:36:49.600 to be creative

00:36:51.020 in order to maintain

00:36:53.360 that efficiency.

00:36:54.720 There's going to be disruptions

00:36:56.100 that take place.

00:36:56.840 Uber is a good disruption.

00:36:58.880 I was talking to Philippa

00:37:00.260 about this afterwards.

00:37:01.620 He said,

00:37:01.860 well,

00:37:02.340 it helps if you're Paul Marshall

00:37:03.340 because you always have

00:37:03.960 a driver waiting for you.

00:37:05.840 Those schmucks like me

00:37:07.440 that come to Phoenix

00:37:08.480 and need to find a way

00:37:09.300 to get in from the airport.

00:37:10.640 I'd rather just do it

00:37:11.860 on my Uber app.

00:37:13.760 Well,

00:37:14.840 the advantage to the market,

00:37:16.560 too,

00:37:16.720 is that it allows

00:37:17.820 those disruptive forces

00:37:19.240 to operate

00:37:20.120 at a comparatively micro level.

00:37:23.540 I mean,

00:37:24.060 there's still radical transformations

00:37:25.640 in market economies,

00:37:27.400 but the problem

00:37:28.520 with the centralized economy

00:37:29.860 is that they're so stodgy

00:37:32.280 and blind

00:37:33.480 that adaptation

00:37:36.260 only occurs

00:37:37.320 in catastrophic fits,

00:37:39.660 whereas in a dynamic market,

00:37:42.040 there can be local,

00:37:43.320 small revolutions

00:37:44.320 that are continuous.

00:37:45.620 And, like,

00:37:46.820 the way of conceptualizing

00:37:48.600 it technically

00:37:49.220 is that the environment

00:37:50.340 transforms at a rate

00:37:51.820 that slightly exceeds

00:37:52.980 our adaptation.

00:37:54.260 So there's always

00:37:54.980 unexpected things happening

00:37:56.480 as a consequence

00:37:57.380 of the action

00:37:58.280 of reality itself.

00:37:59.540 And then we have to fight

00:38:00.720 to keep up.

00:38:01.780 And we're always

00:38:02.680 a little slow

00:38:03.400 on the uptake,

00:38:04.420 and so the adaptation process

00:38:07.160 can be disruptive.

00:38:10.340 But the wider

00:38:11.840 the distribution

00:38:12.860 of responsibility

00:38:13.860 for adaptation,

00:38:15.700 the larger variety

00:38:17.060 of revolutionary adaptations

00:38:19.160 that can be on offer,

00:38:20.720 and the smaller

00:38:21.900 and more matched

00:38:22.920 they are to the

00:38:23.640 environmental transformation

00:38:24.760 they can be.

00:38:26.080 And so, you know,

00:38:26.800 it is frightening

00:38:27.540 when you see

00:38:28.280 a novel

00:38:29.920 technological

00:38:31.560 move forward

00:38:32.920 like Uber,

00:38:33.660 which does disrupt

00:38:35.060 industries

00:38:35.720 and cause

00:38:36.480 a certain number

00:38:37.320 of people grief.

00:38:38.420 But that's much better

00:38:40.200 than refusing

00:38:42.120 to adapt

00:38:42.980 to the necessity

00:38:43.780 for change

00:38:44.580 and then having

00:38:45.560 to involuntarily

00:38:47.380 undergo

00:38:47.960 a cataclysmic

00:38:49.080 form of readaptation.

00:38:50.920 I mean,

00:38:51.140 that's really

00:38:51.500 what happened

00:38:51.920 when the Soviet Union

00:38:52.840 collapsed.

00:38:53.460 It was that

00:38:53.860 so many things

00:38:55.380 had gone wrong

00:38:56.500 that the only solution

00:38:58.080 was that

00:38:58.580 the whole system

00:38:59.820 had to die.

00:39:00.720 Well,

00:39:00.920 that's an obvious

00:39:03.340 evidence

00:39:04.140 of market failure.

00:39:05.540 When huge things die,

00:39:07.640 small things

00:39:08.360 didn't die fast enough.

00:39:10.140 That's really

00:39:10.640 the rule of thumb.

00:39:12.340 I think there's

00:39:13.300 so many interesting

00:39:14.020 lessons too right now,

00:39:15.220 Jordan,

00:39:15.440 from AI

00:39:16.200 and from the

00:39:17.100 effective altruism

00:39:18.280 movement.

00:39:19.160 Many things

00:39:19.740 that we can learn

00:39:20.420 about the governance

00:39:21.520 issues that just

00:39:22.380 came out of open AI

00:39:23.560 and I don't want

00:39:24.840 to go down

00:39:25.220 that rabbit hole.

00:39:26.340 But a lot of them,

00:39:27.160 again,

00:39:28.000 I think are

00:39:29.120 highlight

00:39:30.300 the principal points

00:39:31.520 we've been making.

00:39:32.440 Markets are important.

00:39:33.760 Let capital

00:39:34.320 move freely.

00:39:36.440 Let there be innovation.

00:39:38.220 As you know,

00:39:38.580 the whole idea

00:39:39.160 between open AI

00:39:40.560 was to have

00:39:41.280 an open source platform

00:39:42.640 that everyone

00:39:43.120 was contributing to,

00:39:44.100 make it altruistic

00:39:46.020 so that it could

00:39:46.660 be done in a good way

00:39:47.320 and then they found

00:39:47.820 we still need

00:39:48.720 billions of dollars.

00:39:50.220 How are we going

00:39:50.800 to raise the billions

00:39:51.580 of dollars to create

00:39:52.480 the computational capacity

00:39:54.280 that AI and chat GBT

00:39:55.860 really requires?

00:39:56.940 And they knew

00:39:57.560 they had to have that

00:39:58.380 in a for-profit arm.

00:39:59.740 If they did not have

00:40:00.620 that in a for-profit arm,

00:40:02.000 they would not have

00:40:02.540 found the capital.

00:40:03.580 So important lessons,

00:40:05.180 I think,

00:40:06.060 yes,

00:40:07.260 of course we need

00:40:08.580 to be mindful,

00:40:09.360 but there's no way

00:40:09.920 to build the world

00:40:10.740 that we want to build

00:40:11.800 where the needs

00:40:13.420 and aspirations

00:40:14.180 of the trillions

00:40:15.720 of people

00:40:16.300 yet to come,

00:40:17.140 because by the way,

00:40:18.440 if you actually look

00:40:19.160 at where Homo sapiens

00:40:20.960 sapiens are

00:40:21.600 in the normal course,

00:40:22.960 there are trillions

00:40:23.960 of human beings

00:40:25.020 yet to be born.

00:40:26.520 This is the

00:40:26.960 William McAllister

00:40:28.200 arguments that you probably,

00:40:30.360 what we owe the future,

00:40:31.620 a famous philosopher

00:40:32.460 from Oxford University

00:40:34.340 that you need to have

00:40:35.120 on your show

00:40:36.060 if you haven't had him

00:40:36.840 on yet.

00:40:37.240 And this is something

00:40:40.760 that the Pope

00:40:41.440 speaks about

00:40:42.020 very, very eloquently

00:40:43.060 also in Laudato Si,

00:40:44.800 which is that

00:40:45.300 we do have,

00:40:46.880 in many ways,

00:40:48.120 Jordan,

00:40:48.800 we do have responsibilities

00:40:50.280 to future generations.

00:40:52.160 And we need to think,

00:40:53.280 how often do you think

00:40:54.640 about your grandchildren?

00:40:55.640 How often do you think

00:40:56.200 about your grandchildren's

00:40:57.220 grandchildren?

00:40:58.040 Do you care about them?

00:40:59.020 Do you love them?

00:40:59.560 Is the life

00:41:00.700 of your great,

00:41:01.520 great, great,

00:41:02.080 great grandchild

00:41:03.020 any less important

00:41:04.260 than your life?

00:41:05.320 No, it's not.

00:41:06.120 So let's go about

00:41:07.580 this process

00:41:08.180 of thinking

00:41:08.640 how it is

00:41:09.380 that we're going

00:41:10.100 to create

00:41:10.820 this sustainable planet.

00:41:12.420 And I spent

00:41:13.500 a little bit of time

00:41:14.340 talking about,

00:41:15.300 you know,

00:41:16.360 the broad philosophy

00:41:17.780 of Raghurajan,

00:41:19.140 but where I have spent

00:41:21.020 a great deal

00:41:21.560 of my life and work

00:41:22.980 is in Catholic

00:41:24.080 social teaching.

00:41:25.260 And I'd love

00:41:26.320 to come to Catholic

00:41:27.040 social teaching

00:41:27.640 at some point

00:41:28.320 on this podcast

00:41:29.700 because,

00:41:30.580 as I say,

00:41:31.580 it happens to be

00:41:32.660 extraordinarily resident

00:41:33.720 and pertinent

00:41:34.360 for the times we live in,

00:41:35.340 not because it's Catholic.

00:41:37.320 It just happens

00:41:37.940 to be Catholic.

00:41:38.920 It's actually

00:41:39.400 about 150 years old.

00:41:41.300 And I think

00:41:41.940 the broad principles

00:41:42.760 of human dignity,

00:41:44.120 subsidiarity,

00:41:44.960 which you spoke about

00:41:45.720 very eloquently

00:41:46.380 from the stage,

00:41:47.300 responsibility,

00:41:48.440 personal responsibility,

00:41:50.040 and then solidarity,

00:41:51.820 the third principle

00:41:52.540 of Catholic social teaching,

00:41:53.600 which is that

00:41:54.100 we are our brothers

00:41:54.920 and sisters keepers.

00:41:56.200 There are too many people,

00:41:57.940 Jordan,

00:41:58.320 that cannot take care

00:41:59.540 of themselves.

00:42:00.340 And it is the responsibility

00:42:01.800 of the strong

00:42:02.580 to help the weak.

00:42:03.420 It is the responsibility

00:42:04.760 for those of us

00:42:05.800 who have more capacities

00:42:07.160 and more capabilities

00:42:08.120 to give that hand up

00:42:09.820 to those who do not have it.

00:42:11.240 That is Catholic social teaching.

00:42:12.760 And what's interesting

00:42:13.380 is that subsidiarity argument,

00:42:15.800 you know,

00:42:16.040 it turns out

00:42:16.460 the Declaration of Independence

00:42:17.820 is right.

00:42:18.620 All men and women

00:42:19.600 are created equal.

00:42:20.720 They're obviously

00:42:21.200 in the image of God

00:42:22.520 and they are entitled

00:42:23.480 to a life of liberty

00:42:24.640 and the pursuit of happiness,

00:42:26.680 their own fulfillment.

00:42:28.200 But the simple fact

00:42:29.360 of the matter is

00:42:30.060 that that cannot be achieved

00:42:31.860 without people taking

00:42:32.740 personal responsibility

00:42:33.840 and families taking

00:42:35.060 responsibilities

00:42:35.860 for their own families

00:42:37.000 and then communities

00:42:38.180 beyond that.

00:42:39.860 That is how the system

00:42:40.980 is going to work.

00:42:41.940 Subsidiarity and solidarity

00:42:43.000 though are going to live

00:42:43.840 in constant tension.

00:42:45.340 We're never going

00:42:46.120 to have them resolved.

00:42:47.400 There's always going

00:42:48.040 to be somebody else

00:42:48.740 who needs to be helped.

00:42:49.940 There's always going

00:42:50.440 to be somebody else

00:42:51.200 who needs to have

00:42:51.720 more responsibility.

00:42:53.140 And that is that struggle

00:42:54.500 uphill that you spoke

00:42:55.520 so eloquently about

00:42:57.420 time and again at ARC.

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00:43:58.340 So the idea of responsibility

00:44:02.560 for future generations,

00:44:04.200 let's wander into the Catholic

00:44:06.680 social teaching domain

00:44:07.940 for a moment.

00:44:08.740 So I spent a lot of time

00:44:10.680 recently writing this book,

00:44:13.080 We Who Wrestle With God,

00:44:14.300 and one of the chapters

00:44:15.320 in that book deals with

00:44:16.660 the story of Abraham.

00:44:18.460 So Abraham is portrayed

00:44:19.980 as the father of nations.

00:44:23.280 And so my sense is that

00:44:24.880 the story of Abraham

00:44:26.620 contains it within it

00:44:28.640 the seeds of,

00:44:31.240 what would you say?

00:44:33.020 It contains within it

00:44:34.140 a representation of what

00:44:35.560 it means to live

00:44:36.720 in the light of eternity.

00:44:39.340 So imagine that you could

00:44:40.860 adopt an ethos

00:44:42.100 that set you up

00:44:45.420 in the best possible manner

00:44:47.280 to increase the probability

00:44:49.600 that your children

00:44:51.000 would survive and thrive.

00:44:52.800 Okay, but then let's extend that.

00:44:55.780 So, because that's not sufficient.

00:44:59.000 And you could even make

00:44:59.740 an evolutionary biology argument

00:45:01.320 in this direction.

00:45:02.380 You want to develop an ethos

00:45:03.880 that not only increases

00:45:05.040 the probability

00:45:05.740 that you will have children

00:45:07.260 and that your children

00:45:08.120 will thrive and survive,

00:45:09.420 but that establishes a pattern

00:45:11.100 that they imitate

00:45:12.580 that increases the probability

00:45:14.480 that their children

00:45:15.500 and their children's children

00:45:18.420 will thrive and survive.

00:45:19.860 So it's an ethos

00:45:20.920 that has to have

00:45:21.720 a multi-generational,

00:45:23.420 that has to have

00:45:24.080 multi-generational implication.

00:45:26.100 Okay, so that's exactly

00:45:27.080 what Abraham does.

00:45:28.820 Now, and that's the manner

00:45:31.360 in which that's to be done

00:45:32.900 is actually laid out

00:45:33.920 in the narrative.

00:45:34.620 So the first thing

00:45:35.340 that happens

00:45:35.900 that's very, very interesting

00:45:37.360 because it has to do

00:45:38.680 with material satiation.

00:45:40.900 At the beginning of the story,

00:45:42.980 Abraham is already,

00:45:44.300 he's already in the arms

00:45:45.680 of the infantile utopia, right?

00:45:48.380 Because Abraham has rich parents

00:45:50.180 and he's privileged

00:45:51.400 and he has everything material

00:45:53.480 that anyone could ever want.

00:45:55.820 And yet this voice comes to him,

00:45:57.880 it's the voice of his ancestors

00:45:59.400 and God,

00:46:00.380 and it says,

00:46:02.020 go out away from what is secure

00:46:04.780 and have the adventure of your life.

00:46:08.160 And there's a call,

00:46:09.860 that's the calling,

00:46:10.760 and Abraham attends to that calling

00:46:12.700 and moves out into the world

00:46:14.480 to cataclysmic end, right?

00:46:16.820 Because he encounters famine

00:46:18.180 and slavery

00:46:18.800 and the connivance

00:46:20.760 of the aristocrats

00:46:21.760 to steal his wife

00:46:22.760 and battles with his in-laws

00:46:24.280 and like the whole terrible array

00:46:27.160 of potential catastrophes in life

00:46:29.420 present themselves to Abraham.

00:46:31.100 But he maintains

00:46:32.400 a sacrificial attitude, right?

00:46:34.420 That's it.

00:46:34.860 That's emphasized

00:46:35.640 throughout the text

00:46:36.840 because every time Abraham

00:46:38.120 embarks on a new adventure,

00:46:40.120 starts something new,

00:46:41.340 he rekindles his affiliation

00:46:43.820 with what is highest

00:46:45.620 and moves forward in faith.

00:46:47.820 And that's presented

00:46:48.740 as part of a multi-generational vision.

00:46:53.080 And so one of the things

00:46:54.480 that I find very exciting

00:46:55.800 about the potential union

00:46:57.240 of something like evolutionary biology

00:46:59.260 and deep theology

00:47:00.200 is the idea that

00:47:01.360 if we oriented ourselves properly

00:47:04.360 to the highest good,

00:47:06.100 which is, by the way,

00:47:06.960 the message that's in the Sermon on the Mount,

00:47:08.720 we would see in that good

00:47:11.780 the manifestation of the pathway

00:47:13.940 that would enable us

00:47:15.260 to live in a way

00:47:16.020 that would ensure

00:47:17.480 that respect

00:47:18.880 for multi-generational continuity

00:47:20.740 that you just spoke about

00:47:22.100 as the soul of sustainability.

00:47:24.680 And so what that means

00:47:25.620 is that it's the adoption

00:47:26.940 of individual ethical responsibility

00:47:28.860 in the highest manner

00:47:30.860 that constitutes

00:47:32.020 the proper pathway

00:47:33.100 to sustainability

00:47:33.840 and not top-down manipulation

00:47:36.540 of the political, economic,

00:47:38.260 and social systems

00:47:39.220 to bring about

00:47:40.440 some form of

00:47:41.780 what plans stability,

00:47:44.380 which we can't do, right?

00:47:45.760 We can't do that.

00:47:47.260 No. Well, I mean, you said

00:47:48.480 the mere fact

00:47:50.200 that you said earlier,

00:47:51.340 it's like if you look

00:47:52.080 at China and Russia and India,

00:47:53.600 first of all,

00:47:54.160 we have absolutely no right

00:47:55.420 to tell them

00:47:55.980 that they can't take

00:47:56.840 the same pathway

00:47:57.720 to wealth that we took.

00:47:59.600 And that was going to involve

00:48:00.880 the use of coal.

00:48:02.180 And it's going to involve

00:48:03.220 the use of fossil fuels.

00:48:04.420 And we might as well

00:48:05.060 bloody well just get used to that

00:48:06.520 because that's going to happen.

00:48:08.020 And then maybe

00:48:08.680 in the Western countries,

00:48:10.120 we could be laying

00:48:10.940 the groundwork

00:48:11.600 for a nuclear revolution

00:48:12.880 and show the pathway forward

00:48:15.640 for these countries

00:48:16.460 that will have to transition

00:48:17.740 through fossil fuel.

00:48:18.940 But there's no bloody way

00:48:20.060 we're going to be able

00:48:20.680 to do that

00:48:21.140 by imposing

00:48:21.980 our idiot utopian views

00:48:24.220 on China and Russia

00:48:25.800 and India.

00:48:26.800 They're just going to tell us

00:48:27.600 to go to hell,

00:48:28.320 which is what they should do.

00:48:30.800 In today's chaotic world,

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00:48:34.760 and find spiritual peace.

00:48:36.520 But here's the thing.

00:48:37.940 Prayer, the most common tool

00:48:39.200 we have,

00:48:39.860 isn't just about saying

00:48:40.740 whatever comes to mind.

00:48:42.080 It's a skill

00:48:42.720 that needs to be developed.

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00:49:49.680 Well, Sterling,

00:49:50.700 I'm thinking of your

00:49:53.020 Abraham story,

00:49:55.100 you know, Jordan,

00:49:56.200 and just the importance of it

00:49:57.740 and focus on future generations.

00:49:59.440 And one of the lines

00:50:01.020 that you used repeatedly

00:50:02.120 in London,

00:50:02.740 which has been inscribed

00:50:03.780 into my brain,

00:50:04.660 is about tilting

00:50:05.680 the world towards heaven

00:50:07.260 and not towards hell.

00:50:08.560 How do we tilt?

00:50:10.260 Do you know,

00:50:10.580 there's a lot that we can't do,

00:50:11.500 but how do we,

00:50:12.460 you know,

00:50:12.700 if the arc of humanity

00:50:14.580 bends towards justice,

00:50:16.140 to what degree

00:50:17.080 can we help

00:50:18.500 get that justice arc

00:50:20.120 going in the right direction?

00:50:21.640 And another book

00:50:22.900 that I wanted to

00:50:23.820 give a shout-out to

00:50:24.860 that I know you have read

00:50:26.220 and so many people have

00:50:27.260 is Bjorn Lomborg's

00:50:28.700 most recent book,

00:50:29.600 Best Things First.

00:50:31.080 And, you know,

00:50:31.560 let's just be very clear.

00:50:33.120 In this book,

00:50:33.940 Bjorn Lomborg

00:50:34.740 points out

00:50:35.800 12 different policies,

00:50:38.000 five of which

00:50:38.660 are related to health,

00:50:39.740 two of which

00:50:40.180 are related to nutrition,

00:50:41.680 one of education,

00:50:42.540 and four of which

00:50:43.240 are economic,

00:50:44.160 that would cost

00:50:45.300 $36 billion a year

00:50:48.020 in a global economy

00:50:49.600 that has $120 trillion,

00:50:51.940 you know,

00:50:52.160 $120,

00:50:53.220 depending on PP,

00:50:54.200 purchasing power parity,

00:50:55.260 but less than one-third

00:50:56.760 of one percent

00:50:57.800 would actually save

00:50:59.600 4.2 million lives

00:51:01.440 and would generate

00:51:02.840 a higher GDP

00:51:03.920 of $1.1 trillion,

00:51:06.020 particularly in

00:51:06.900 sub-Saharan Africa,

00:51:08.460 where this growth

00:51:09.280 is most needed.

00:51:10.520 And these are simple,

00:51:11.540 tuberculosis,

00:51:12.780 malaria,

00:51:13.300 ending neglected

00:51:14.240 tropical diseases,

00:51:15.840 agricultural abundance.

00:51:17.000 You just look through,

00:51:18.460 you know,

00:51:18.780 I would,

00:51:19.640 I don't know,

00:51:20.780 one of the things

00:51:21.180 I'd love to do

00:51:21.820 is give a copy

00:51:23.040 of that book

00:51:23.420 to literally

00:51:23.980 every single policymaker,

00:51:25.940 that is to say,

00:51:26.520 every single Abraham

00:51:27.640 on Earth saying,

00:51:29.240 look,

00:51:30.100 here are things

00:51:30.720 that we can do

00:51:31.560 right now.

00:51:33.040 They're very practical.

00:51:34.260 Ending neglected

00:51:34.980 tropical diseases,

00:51:36.700 doing e-procurement

00:51:38.200 so that there's

00:51:39.240 a much greater transparency.

00:51:41.440 Free trade,

00:51:42.100 we're all against,

00:51:43.020 right now,

00:51:43.700 everyone's clamping down

00:51:44.660 on free trade.

00:51:45.260 No,

00:51:45.700 free trade benefits

00:51:46.760 humanity overall.

00:51:48.120 We've got to continue

00:51:49.140 to find ways

00:51:50.520 where we can trade

00:51:51.760 in accordance

00:51:52.540 with comparative advantage.

00:51:53.960 This will,

00:51:54.880 in fact,

00:51:55.420 lift these billions

00:51:57.300 of people

00:51:57.820 who are not yet

00:51:58.720 within the cycle

00:51:59.540 of abundance,

00:52:00.500 not yet free

00:52:02.580 of energy insecurity.

00:52:05.040 It's another topic

00:52:06.200 that we touched upon

00:52:07.540 in London,

00:52:08.520 but that we need

00:52:09.040 to return to.

00:52:10.140 There are 3 billion

00:52:11.820 human beings on Earth

00:52:13.040 that live in energy poverty.

00:52:15.020 They can't turn on

00:52:16.280 the lights.

00:52:17.380 What they want

00:52:18.080 more than anything,

00:52:19.220 there's not air conditioning,

00:52:20.520 they actually would like

00:52:21.340 to have a lamp

00:52:22.020 to read their books

00:52:22.880 at night.

00:52:23.320 They can't even

00:52:23.820 read their books.

00:52:25.660 So these types

00:52:27.140 of Bjorn Lomborg policies,

00:52:29.640 these types of,

00:52:30.320 I have many of them

00:52:31.240 in my book as well

00:52:32.400 as a concept

00:52:33.300 I call exemplars of hope,

00:52:35.060 very huge returns

00:52:37.040 on investment.

00:52:38.620 Some of those investments

00:52:39.380 have to be done

00:52:40.120 human to human.

00:52:42.100 And I always say,

00:52:43.420 you know, Jordan,

00:52:44.140 there is no marginal tax rate

00:52:45.760 that gets you to heaven.

00:52:47.060 If your earnings

00:52:48.260 are taxed at 100%,

00:52:49.700 there's no moral,

00:52:52.340 you know,

00:52:52.820 paying them,

00:52:53.440 yes, it's legal,

00:52:54.120 but that doesn't

00:52:54.560 get you to heaven.

00:52:55.660 To get to heaven,

00:52:56.620 it will be by your works alone,

00:52:58.620 what you do

00:52:59.520 and how you care

00:53:00.400 for those who are

00:53:01.140 most in need

00:53:01.900 and how you can do that

00:53:03.140 at a societal level,

00:53:04.060 which I believe you do

00:53:04.920 with your podcast,

00:53:06.100 which I believe you do

00:53:06.840 with your teaching.

00:53:07.840 I was listening to

00:53:08.620 one of your Joe Rogan

00:53:09.980 conversations recently,

00:53:11.600 and you were talking

00:53:12.760 with joy,

00:53:13.780 absolute joy,

00:53:14.940 about how people

00:53:16.020 come to you

00:53:16.560 and talk about

00:53:17.140 how their lives

00:53:17.900 have been transformed

00:53:19.060 because of the type

00:53:19.920 of self-help advice

00:53:20.840 that you've given to them.

00:53:22.120 I look at these things

00:53:23.380 much more from a

00:53:24.520 what is an economic solution.

00:53:27.340 As you know,

00:53:27.840 I've written this book

00:53:28.440 on ESG.

00:53:29.140 I'm sure we'll get

00:53:29.680 into ESG a little bit.

00:53:30.780 I'm probably the number one

00:53:32.620 critic on the face

00:53:33.540 of the earth at ESG,

00:53:34.620 not because of what

00:53:35.620 it's trying to do.

00:53:37.180 I believe that ESG

00:53:38.600 was born of something

00:53:39.800 very good that,

00:53:40.800 you know,

00:53:41.060 I think there's a lot

00:53:41.920 of great intentions

00:53:42.860 out there.

00:53:43.580 I really don't want

00:53:45.860 to discourage

00:53:46.580 or disdain

00:53:50.540 the intentions

00:53:51.540 of even people

00:53:53.140 who are out there

00:53:53.660 protesting

00:53:54.280 for zero carbon

00:53:56.800 emissions.

00:53:58.260 Their intentions

00:53:59.100 are good, Jordan.

00:54:00.820 We need to work

00:54:01.680 with those intentions.

00:54:02.720 But what will

00:54:03.600 actually work?

00:54:04.940 What practically

00:54:05.840 will create

00:54:06.740 a globe

00:54:07.420 of greater economic growth

00:54:09.100 that is simultaneously

00:54:10.240 more inclusive,

00:54:11.820 welcoming in those

00:54:12.720 who have not yet

00:54:13.480 had the great benefits

00:54:14.480 that they need

00:54:15.200 and should have

00:54:16.020 and have every

00:54:16.920 God-given right to have,

00:54:18.140 just like you and I do,

00:54:19.480 to have the types

00:54:20.420 of material abundance

00:54:21.540 where they can pursue

00:54:22.400 all their other dreams,

00:54:23.660 as well as sustainability.

00:54:26.260 Sustainability

00:54:26.740 is not going away.

00:54:28.780 We're going to,

00:54:30.140 you talk about the fisheries

00:54:31.440 and how much cod

00:54:32.580 is off the shore.

00:54:33.700 If we're not going

00:54:34.400 to be mindful

00:54:34.940 about these things,

00:54:36.580 we're screwed.

00:54:37.980 We're going to be screwed.

00:54:39.420 So I make that case,

00:54:42.240 but I can talk

00:54:43.000 about homelessness,

00:54:43.800 I can talk about

00:54:44.360 solutions for recidivism,

00:54:45.500 I can talk about

00:54:46.120 solutions for infant

00:54:48.120 and mother nutrition.

00:54:50.900 There are solutions

00:54:51.880 out there

00:54:52.480 that just like

00:54:53.320 Bjorn Lomborg

00:54:54.080 points out in his book

00:54:55.060 are not that expensive

00:54:56.960 relative to the huge benefits

00:54:59.820 that we can get from them.

00:55:01.620 And this is something

00:55:02.180 I would...

00:55:02.660 Well, let's do two things.

00:55:04.560 Let's wander through

00:55:05.620 the ESG territory

00:55:06.860 so maybe you can

00:55:07.740 illuminate my guests

00:55:08.780 as to exactly

00:55:10.620 what ESG means

00:55:11.740 and why it came about

00:55:12.860 and then why

00:55:13.700 you're leery about it

00:55:15.360 and then let's turn

00:55:16.500 to a discussion

00:55:17.240 of solutions.

00:55:18.580 So I'll let you go ahead

00:55:19.840 with ESG to begin with.

00:55:21.940 Educate people

00:55:22.740 to begin with

00:55:23.400 because it's not easy

00:55:24.560 for people to understand

00:55:25.620 even what ESG is.

00:55:27.320 So the truth

00:55:28.440 of the matter is

00:55:29.260 that the environmental,

00:55:30.560 social,

00:55:30.880 and governance movement,

00:55:32.200 the ESG movement,

00:55:33.380 which is all the rage,

00:55:35.320 could not be understood

00:55:36.540 without the context

00:55:38.360 that's provided

00:55:38.980 by the United Nations

00:55:40.080 and everything

00:55:41.060 that has happened

00:55:41.640 since the Second World War.

00:55:42.820 So it's a story

00:55:43.380 I need to tell.

00:55:44.660 So as you probably remember,

00:55:46.100 at the end

00:55:46.560 of the Second World War,

00:55:48.180 Eleanor Roosevelt

00:55:48.800 brought together

00:55:49.740 42, 43 nations

00:55:51.340 and they devised

00:55:52.760 the Universal Declaration

00:55:54.580 of Human Rights.

00:55:55.880 And this was

00:55:56.300 a very utopic document,

00:55:58.660 Jordan,

00:55:59.020 that said that

00:55:59.680 every human being

00:56:00.560 is entitled

00:56:01.140 to, obviously,

00:56:03.420 to freedom.

00:56:03.840 There's a whole range

00:56:05.000 of inalienable rights

00:56:07.340 they're talking about,

00:56:07.840 but then there are

00:56:08.340 inalienable rights.

00:56:09.980 They're entitled to food.

00:56:11.300 They're entitled to shelter.

00:56:12.300 They're entitled to education.

00:56:13.940 So this was quite

00:56:15.120 something ambitious

00:56:16.120 to do at the end

00:56:16.840 of the Second World War

00:56:17.920 because the world

00:56:19.020 was devastated.

00:56:20.340 We didn't know

00:56:21.240 how we were going

00:56:21.680 to rebuild

00:56:22.080 the European continent.

00:56:24.560 Japan was a complete mess.

00:56:26.540 And yet here was

00:56:27.060 this utopic statement

00:56:28.300 of what humanity

00:56:30.600 should ultimately

00:56:31.420 be striving for.

00:56:32.440 Fast forward 50 years

00:56:35.120 from the signing

00:56:36.060 of the United Nations

00:56:37.040 and you have

00:56:38.000 the United Nations

00:56:38.820 then espousing

00:56:39.760 millennial development goals,

00:56:42.300 the United Nations

00:56:43.080 sustainable development goals,

00:56:45.200 of which there are now 17.

00:56:46.960 And what happened

00:56:47.920 over the course

00:56:48.420 of that 50 years

00:56:49.340 is something

00:56:50.300 that is insufficiently celebrated.

00:56:53.580 Since the end

00:56:54.360 of the Second World War

00:56:55.420 until about 2000,

00:56:57.520 the economic transformation

00:56:59.380 of the globe

00:57:00.220 was beyond anything

00:57:01.740 anyone had possibly

00:57:03.160 imagined possible.

00:57:04.840 The actual material abundance

00:57:07.360 that's actually emerged

00:57:09.040 since the Second World War

00:57:10.560 is simply unfathomable

00:57:12.500 to your grandparents

00:57:13.560 or your great-grandparents.

00:57:14.700 They would have no idea.

00:57:15.860 So per capita income

00:57:17.080 since 1980 alone

00:57:18.380 went from $2,500

00:57:19.840 to $12,000.

00:57:22.360 What comes with

00:57:23.380 all of the growth,

00:57:24.800 here's a statistic

00:57:25.740 that I love, Jordan.

00:57:26.920 From 1990 until COVID,

00:57:29.680 128,000 human souls

00:57:32.720 escaped abject poverty

00:57:34.400 every day.

00:57:36.120 Every day.

00:57:37.060 The number of human beings

00:57:38.620 on the planet

00:57:39.220 that were living

00:57:40.080 on $1.91 a day,

00:57:41.580 which is how the World Bank

00:57:42.600 defines abject poverty,

00:57:44.520 in 1980

00:57:45.300 was one out of every two.

00:57:47.440 One out of every two

00:57:48.380 human beings

00:57:49.060 on the planet

00:57:49.880 struggled to find a meal,

00:57:52.400 struggled to find

00:57:53.100 where they were going to live,

00:57:54.480 would they have

00:57:55.000 any heat overnight?

00:57:56.360 That statistic today

00:57:57.660 is one out of ten.

00:57:59.360 And of course,

00:58:00.080 that transpired

00:58:00.960 at a time

00:58:01.420 when population growth

00:58:02.880 was massive.

00:58:03.920 Along with all of this

00:58:05.300 material and economic abundance

00:58:07.140 has come what always happens,

00:58:09.680 greater social,

00:58:11.440 educational,

00:58:12.200 and health advancements.

00:58:13.780 So we've had

00:58:14.420 a circumstance

00:58:15.220 where life expectancy

00:58:17.180 has expanded

00:58:17.900 by 22%

00:58:19.080 over that same period.

00:58:20.560 Infant mortality

00:58:21.300 dropped from 81

00:58:22.240 out of every

00:58:22.960 100,000 births.

00:58:24.760 to 25.

00:58:25.820 So infant mortalities

00:58:26.740 fell at 70%.

00:58:27.940 Literacy rates

00:58:29.120 massively improved.

00:58:30.520 What happens

00:58:31.320 when prosperity grows

00:58:33.440 is other

00:58:34.780 aspects of human existence

00:58:37.460 improve as well.

00:58:39.200 So what happened then,

00:58:40.920 and I'm coming to ESG,

00:58:42.200 I'm sorry for the prelude,

00:58:43.260 but it's necessary to have,

00:58:44.960 there is no ESG

00:58:46.200 without this material abundance.

00:58:48.320 In 1999

00:58:50.100 and 2000,

00:58:52.060 the United Nations

00:58:53.060 convened

00:58:54.400 the greatest collection

00:58:55.400 of political leaders

00:58:57.220 in history.

00:58:58.200 And that collection

00:58:59.080 included kings

00:58:59.960 and prime ministers

00:59:01.580 and they designed

00:59:02.860 the millennial development goals.

00:59:04.360 Do you remember

00:59:04.680 the millennial development goals?

00:59:07.160 2000.

00:59:08.660 And the millennial development goals

00:59:10.420 was let's get rid

00:59:11.360 of poverty completely.

00:59:13.140 Let's have

00:59:14.040 a K-12

00:59:15.620 universal education

00:59:17.080 around the globe.

00:59:18.100 Things that were unfathomable

00:59:19.520 50 years earlier.

00:59:21.220 And let's find a way

00:59:23.060 to make sure

00:59:24.320 that there is

00:59:25.760 greater

00:59:26.240 political freedoms,

00:59:28.560 broadly speaking.

00:59:30.400 What ended up happening,

00:59:31.700 though,

00:59:32.160 is continued progress

00:59:33.580 was being made

00:59:34.200 on those, Jordan,

00:59:35.340 until about 2005

00:59:36.700 when Kofi Annan,

00:59:37.860 who was the Secretary General

00:59:38.860 of the United Nations,

00:59:40.320 convened a group

00:59:41.280 of financiers.

00:59:42.660 And he said,

00:59:43.160 listen,

00:59:43.820 I want there to be

00:59:44.900 a group of financiers

00:59:46.980 that come up

00:59:47.500 with investment principles

00:59:48.980 that would help

00:59:50.280 promote these

00:59:51.240 United Nations

00:59:52.180 sustainable development goals

00:59:53.440 and millennial development goals.

00:59:55.240 Why don't you,

00:59:55.980 very smart people,

00:59:57.000 70 of them he picked,

00:59:57.980 go in a room

00:59:58.460 and come back

00:59:59.520 and tell me

00:59:59.940 what those principles

01:00:00.720 for responsible investing are.

01:00:02.760 This is where ESG came from.

01:00:05.540 ESG emerged in 2005

01:00:07.640 with Kofi Annan

01:00:09.140 ringing the bell

01:00:10.540 at the New York Stock Exchange

01:00:12.560 announcing

01:00:13.140 these investment principles.

01:00:14.580 What were

01:00:14.860 these investment principles?

01:00:16.500 They were a series

01:00:17.280 of principles

01:00:17.860 relating to

01:00:18.720 environmental,

01:00:20.800 social,

01:00:21.780 and governance factors

01:00:23.100 that this group

01:00:24.520 of financiers

01:00:25.480 had assessed

01:00:26.360 could present

01:00:27.460 material risks

01:00:28.980 material risks.

01:00:30.400 If we don't

01:00:31.240 handle these things

01:00:32.060 well enough,

01:00:32.900 they will lead

01:00:33.660 to financial failure.

01:00:35.200 Stocks will go down.

01:00:37.080 So ESG

01:00:38.760 actually came out

01:00:40.380 of the United Nations

01:00:41.280 Declaration for Human Rights,

01:00:43.580 the millennial

01:00:44.780 development goals

01:00:46.760 and the sustainable

01:00:47.320 development goals,

01:00:48.360 and the United Nations

01:00:49.780 Principles for Responsible

01:00:51.180 Investing

01:00:51.800 that first went public

01:00:53.100 in 2005.

01:00:54.480 today there are

01:00:55.840 more than 6,000

01:00:56.960 signatories

01:00:57.660 to the United Nations

01:00:58.800 Principles for Responsible

01:01:00.500 Investment, Jordan.

01:01:01.860 Those institutions

01:01:02.920 collectively manage

01:01:03.920 $120 trillion

01:01:05.540 in assets.

01:01:07.200 That is to say

01:01:07.820 they manage

01:01:09.260 one half

01:01:10.200 of all the

01:01:10.820 institutional assets

01:01:11.800 that are

01:01:12.520 available for investment

01:01:13.720 in the world.

01:01:14.780 What are these people doing?

01:01:16.420 Well, they've come up

01:01:17.320 with a series

01:01:18.080 of products

01:01:18.820 and ideas

01:01:19.560 and corporate

01:01:20.720 resolutions

01:01:21.360 and any number

01:01:22.200 of things

01:01:22.700 that are intended

01:01:23.940 to highlight

01:01:25.480 various elements

01:01:26.920 of these environmental,

01:01:27.920 social,

01:01:28.180 and governance issues

01:01:28.940 of pertinence

01:01:30.200 to them.

01:01:31.540 So, you know,

01:01:32.720 we tell the Bud Light

01:01:33.580 story, right?

01:01:34.340 Someone decided

01:01:35.100 that it was very important

01:01:36.200 for Bud Light

01:01:37.520 to expand

01:01:38.280 its market share.

01:01:39.880 They need to be

01:01:41.060 expanding

01:01:41.800 in a DEI-sensitive way.

01:01:43.960 What do they do?

01:01:44.540 They have a commercial

01:01:45.240 that was misconceived.

01:01:46.940 It pissed off

01:01:47.580 two-thirds of the people

01:01:48.440 who were actually

01:01:48.860 drinking their beer

01:01:49.680 and didn't result

01:01:51.040 in any...

01:01:51.840 So, the ESG rules

01:01:53.660 as they've actually

01:01:54.500 been applied

01:01:55.260 have had

01:01:56.340 a very...

01:01:58.660 a series

01:02:00.020 of unintended

01:02:00.780 consequences

01:02:01.620 that haven't

01:02:02.660 always been...

01:02:03.980 well,

01:02:04.480 that have been

01:02:05.060 deleterious.

01:02:06.140 My principal

01:02:06.860 criticism, though,

01:02:07.940 of ESG

01:02:08.700 as a financier

01:02:09.880 and the work

01:02:10.780 that I write about

01:02:11.420 in the book

01:02:11.820 and the reason

01:02:12.220 why I believe

01:02:13.200 ESG

01:02:13.980 has neither done

01:02:15.940 well nor much good

01:02:17.600 is what I say.

01:02:19.480 That was a

01:02:19.960 Wall Street Journal

01:02:20.580 op-ed that I wrote

01:02:21.520 that was read

01:02:21.980 4.2 million times.

01:02:23.680 It hasn't done well

01:02:24.820 because in actual

01:02:26.340 practice, Jordan,

01:02:27.700 what people have done

01:02:28.620 is here's these

01:02:29.920 ESG rules.

01:02:32.460 In the S&P 500,

01:02:34.020 which, of course,

01:02:34.540 is comprised

01:02:35.040 of ostensibly

01:02:36.300 the 500 best companies

01:02:37.560 in the United States,

01:02:39.680 typically what the

01:02:40.580 ESG

01:02:41.220 enthusiasts do

01:02:42.760 is they

01:02:43.240 take out

01:02:44.200 400

01:02:45.120 of those

01:02:46.120 and only invest

01:02:47.060 in 100

01:02:47.540 of the remaining

01:02:48.740 stocks.

01:02:49.960 In actual practice,

01:02:51.000 that means

01:02:51.340 they were no longer

01:02:52.520 investing in oil

01:02:53.320 and gas.

01:02:53.980 They were no longer

01:02:54.540 investing in

01:02:55.720 what they regarded

01:02:56.700 as non-virtuous

01:02:58.600 companies.

01:03:00.260 Well, this is just

01:03:01.080 so silly.

01:03:02.060 This is absolutely

01:03:02.820 silly.

01:03:03.220 The idea of you

01:03:04.180 not owning

01:03:04.740 ExxonMobil

01:03:05.480 is going to

01:03:05.960 somehow change

01:03:07.140 the temperature

01:03:07.840 of the Earth

01:03:08.520 is just the

01:03:09.600 silliest thing

01:03:10.200 imaginable.

01:03:10.760 In fact,

01:03:11.240 it has the entire

01:03:12.140 thesis on its head.

01:03:13.420 There's been

01:03:14.560 this concept

01:03:15.380 of socially

01:03:16.280 responsible investing

01:03:17.400 that has been

01:03:17.940 around for centuries.

01:03:19.760 I mean,

01:03:20.060 for centuries,

01:03:21.380 many people

01:03:21.820 avoided investing

01:03:23.060 in the slave trade,

01:03:24.820 right?

01:03:25.480 Many people,

01:03:26.380 religious groups,

01:03:26.960 sounded absolutely

01:03:27.460 abhorrent.

01:03:28.100 But the slave trade

01:03:29.000 continued,

01:03:29.560 didn't it?

01:03:29.980 Why?

01:03:30.360 It continued

01:03:30.840 because one quarter

01:03:32.160 of humanity

01:03:32.660 was still willing

01:03:33.300 to invest in it.

01:03:34.060 It turned out

01:03:34.620 as abhorrent as it was,

01:03:36.160 it was incredibly

01:03:36.840 lucrative.

01:03:37.660 The same thing

01:03:38.320 is true

01:03:38.680 in modern society.

01:03:40.380 There have been

01:03:40.760 a number of investors,

01:03:42.120 most likely religious

01:03:43.400 based that have avoided

01:03:44.640 what are called

01:03:45.220 sin stocks.

01:03:46.380 The sin stocks

01:03:46.980 are in four areas,

01:03:48.160 gambling,

01:03:49.040 alcohol,

01:03:49.780 tobacco,

01:03:50.280 and firearms.

01:03:51.520 So many

01:03:52.160 religiously organized,

01:03:54.000 religious organizations

01:03:55.480 have not invested

01:03:56.720 in these forests.

01:03:57.480 But has that

01:03:58.060 stopped smoking?

01:03:59.280 Has that stopped

01:03:59.900 people drinking?

01:04:00.780 Has that stopped

01:04:01.340 people from buying

01:04:02.080 a firearm?

01:04:02.800 Has that stopped

01:04:03.340 people from gambling?

01:04:04.640 Of course it hasn't.

01:04:06.020 So the ESG movement,

01:04:07.620 investment movement,

01:04:08.260 is based on the same

01:04:09.260 principle of,

01:04:10.260 if I don't invest

01:04:11.200 in ExxonMobil,

01:04:12.160 somehow the temperature

01:04:12.960 of the earth

01:04:13.380 is going to improve.

01:04:15.160 It's pure silliness,

01:04:17.120 Jordan.

01:04:17.720 It's pure silliness.

01:04:19.260 So I gave quite an exposition

01:04:21.800 there where I wanted

01:04:22.940 to come out

01:04:23.820 is that my criticism

01:04:25.480 of ESG

01:04:26.460 as an investment movement

01:04:27.580 is not that it shouldn't

01:04:29.220 be trying to solve

01:04:30.020 the problems

01:04:30.440 of our times,

01:04:31.280 but that it hasn't.

01:04:32.340 It's done exactly

01:04:33.120 the opposite

01:04:33.600 of what needs

01:04:34.080 to be done.

01:04:34.840 And I'm a big proponent

01:04:35.840 of impact investing,

01:04:37.180 and I can give you

01:04:38.380 literally 100 examples,

01:04:40.760 affordable housing,

01:04:42.820 DEI opportunities

01:04:44.300 for female minority

01:04:47.880 entrepreneurs

01:04:48.800 that genuinely address

01:04:50.340 some of these issues

01:04:51.020 of inclusivity

01:04:51.740 and sustainability.

01:04:53.140 There are ways

01:04:53.700 to invest

01:04:54.120 that genuinely

01:04:54.840 takes carbon

01:04:56.140 out of the air.

01:04:57.240 You can do that

01:04:57.680 with a green bond fund,

01:04:58.800 but you cannot do it

01:04:59.900 with these ESG equity funds.

01:05:01.440 So let me ask you

01:05:03.960 what might be

01:05:05.760 a more fundamental question.

01:05:07.040 I mean, it seems to me

01:05:08.700 that Anand's

01:05:09.940 recommendations

01:05:12.480 were ill-founded

01:05:14.040 a priori.

01:05:16.180 And let me walk through this

01:05:17.540 and tell me

01:05:17.940 what you think about it.

01:05:19.780 So, because

01:05:21.040 he's making the assumption

01:05:23.740 that there is already

01:05:26.640 irresponsible investing

01:05:29.000 that can be rectified

01:05:31.500 by conscious attention

01:05:33.300 to a set of ethical principles.

01:05:35.460 And, see,

01:05:36.900 this strikes me

01:05:37.740 as an ill-posed problem

01:05:40.820 because if you have any sense

01:05:43.720 and you're investing,

01:05:45.520 you invest as wisely

01:05:46.960 as you possibly can.

01:05:49.520 And the reason you,

01:05:50.360 all things considered,

01:05:51.600 and the reason you do that

01:05:52.820 is because,

01:05:53.840 well, you don't want

01:05:55.200 to lose your money,

01:05:56.100 your hard-earned money,

01:05:57.060 and so you're already

01:05:57.940 very much motivated

01:05:59.100 to invest wisely.

01:06:00.300 Now, you could say,

01:06:01.920 well, that would open

01:06:03.080 the door to people

01:06:03.900 making a short-term

01:06:05.080 killing at other

01:06:06.100 people's expense,

01:06:07.320 and maybe that's what

01:06:08.080 happens with so-called

01:06:09.360 sin investing,

01:06:10.260 but my sense is that,

01:06:12.580 well, you can get away

01:06:13.480 with making a short-term

01:06:14.600 investment at other

01:06:15.820 people's expense

01:06:16.660 once or twice,

01:06:17.620 but you're going to get

01:06:18.380 hammered for it

01:06:19.420 sooner or later.

01:06:20.280 And so,

01:06:21.420 Anand's notion

01:06:22.580 was predicated

01:06:23.380 on the idea

01:06:24.100 that there was a way

01:06:25.200 of imposing

01:06:26.240 an a priori

01:06:27.240 ethical framework

01:06:28.160 on the problem

01:06:28.980 of investment

01:06:29.700 that would produce

01:06:30.820 investments that would

01:06:31.800 somehow do better,

01:06:33.060 which strikes me

01:06:33.740 as highly improbable,

01:06:35.220 and that would

01:06:35.900 actually increase,

01:06:37.300 what would you say,

01:06:37.980 ethical behavior

01:06:38.860 as such.

01:06:40.120 I would say

01:06:40.780 that people are already

01:06:41.860 as motivated

01:06:43.060 to invest wisely

01:06:44.140 as they possibly

01:06:45.180 can be

01:06:45.880 if they're investing

01:06:46.700 their own money

01:06:47.380 or money they take

01:06:48.180 stewardship of,

01:06:49.260 and the imposition

01:06:50.240 of some top-down

01:06:51.420 ideological framework

01:06:52.540 is only going to

01:06:53.480 compromise

01:06:54.020 the investment strategy,

01:06:55.840 and not only

01:06:56.600 the investment strategy,

01:06:57.780 but also the market

01:06:58.760 strategy of companies.

01:07:00.120 I mean, look,

01:07:00.720 we've seen,

01:07:01.600 well, Budweiser's

01:07:02.440 a great example

01:07:03.320 of an absolute

01:07:03.980 bloody catastrophe.

01:07:05.160 Target put their

01:07:06.040 neck in the same noose.

01:07:07.420 I think Disney's stock

01:07:08.700 is down something

01:07:09.540 like 50%

01:07:10.620 because they fired

01:07:12.100 everybody who could

01:07:12.900 actually tell a story

01:07:14.160 and brought in people

01:07:15.480 who did nothing

01:07:16.580 but, you know,

01:07:17.980 produced second-rate,

01:07:19.340 ideologically-oriented

01:07:20.620 narratives of the sort

01:07:21.840 that flew in the face

01:07:23.060 of what their customers

01:07:23.960 demanded

01:07:24.500 and undermined

01:07:25.440 their entire brand.

01:07:26.580 And so,

01:07:27.420 how deep do you

01:07:28.520 think the conflict

01:07:29.580 between the ESG

01:07:31.100 attitude

01:07:31.660 and the fundamental

01:07:33.120 free market principles

01:07:34.440 of responsible investing

01:07:35.960 actually runs?

01:07:37.080 Because I think,

01:07:37.820 like, it looks to me

01:07:38.580 that Anand took

01:07:39.460 what was essentially

01:07:40.780 a socialist

01:07:41.580 or even a communist

01:07:43.100 view,

01:07:43.680 which is that,

01:07:44.660 well,

01:07:44.960 the market itself

01:07:46.620 can't be trusted

01:07:47.700 and it's necessary

01:07:48.960 to generate

01:07:50.160 these a priori

01:07:51.720 ideological frameworks

01:07:53.060 because that would

01:07:53.860 direct everything

01:07:54.760 much more effectively

01:07:55.720 than it would be

01:07:56.580 otherwise in a,

01:07:57.560 you know,

01:07:57.880 honest free market economy.

01:07:59.580 The whole thing to me

01:08:00.660 just strikes,

01:08:01.700 first of all,

01:08:02.320 there's no bloody way

01:08:03.160 you're going to beat

01:08:03.720 the market with a strategy

01:08:04.920 like that.

01:08:05.640 Nobody can beat the market,

01:08:07.360 not continuously,

01:08:08.620 because they just have

01:08:09.520 all the money.

01:08:10.700 So,

01:08:11.100 there is this problem

01:08:12.580 that it doesn't work

01:08:14.680 in practice,

01:08:15.500 but I also think

01:08:16.740 there's a problem

01:08:17.340 that it doesn't work

01:08:18.160 in principle,

01:08:19.220 that it's the wrong way

01:08:20.120 to go about it.

01:08:21.420 It is certainly

01:08:22.060 the wrong way

01:08:22.840 to go about it,

01:08:23.640 so much so that

01:08:24.500 I have this article

01:08:25.780 that I just shared with you.

01:08:26.960 It's coming out

01:08:27.360 next week with AEI

01:08:28.560 that I co-authored

01:08:29.340 with Senator Phil Graham

01:08:30.400 where we call

01:08:31.260 for the end of ESG.

01:08:32.800 It's an irredeemable project

01:08:34.800 at this stage,

01:08:35.900 Jordan,

01:08:36.160 because it is,

01:08:37.080 as you say,

01:08:37.780 falsely premised.

01:08:38.860 And if something

01:08:39.420 is falsely premised

01:08:40.320 from the beginning,

01:08:41.580 there's no way

01:08:43.080 to adjust it

01:08:43.760 to make it work.

01:08:44.660 And you've said

01:08:45.500 something that's

01:08:46.200 very, very wise

01:08:47.080 and, you know,

01:08:47.720 Warren Buffett,

01:08:48.320 Charlie Munger

01:08:48.780 recently passed away.

01:08:50.180 They've lived their lives

01:08:51.120 according to this maxim.

01:08:52.200 It is extremely difficult

01:08:54.340 to beat the S&P 500.

01:08:56.220 You can own it

01:08:56.940 for one basis point.

01:08:58.260 That's what most people

01:08:59.080 should do.

01:08:59.840 But I'm someone,

01:09:01.320 you know,

01:09:01.640 and my career

01:09:02.380 has been about

01:09:03.060 advising people

01:09:03.720 what to do

01:09:04.160 with their assets,

01:09:05.340 their investments.

01:09:06.360 And I'm somebody

01:09:07.240 who deeply believes,

01:09:08.500 Jordan,

01:09:09.080 that if you're willing

01:09:09.980 to make an investment

01:09:10.860 that's going to have

01:09:11.540 a lower return,

01:09:13.200 but it's going to result

01:09:14.280 in, I don't,

01:09:15.460 you know,

01:09:15.860 affordable housing,

01:09:17.160 or it's going to

01:09:18.240 bring clean water

01:09:19.580 to a village in Rwanda,

01:09:20.940 or it's going to,

01:09:22.160 and you're willing

01:09:22.800 to take a lower return,

01:09:24.640 my God,

01:09:25.680 go at it.

01:09:26.720 And a $51 trillion

01:09:28.000 in wealth

01:09:29.060 is about to be passed

01:09:30.620 from the current

01:09:31.580 generation of billionaires

01:09:32.740 to their,

01:09:34.200 let's say,

01:09:35.080 less hardworking children.

01:09:36.960 And that particular

01:09:38.180 group of individuals

01:09:39.280 are very mindful

01:09:41.280 for double bottom lines.

01:09:43.000 That is to say,

01:09:43.820 they do want their money

01:09:45.200 to do well

01:09:46.160 and to do good.

01:09:47.420 And an important part

01:09:48.780 of my new business

01:09:49.660 and all the work

01:09:50.480 that I'm doing

01:09:51.020 is to provide

01:09:52.440 investors

01:09:54.200 who have this

01:09:55.080 double bottom line

01:09:56.200 mindset

01:09:56.700 that want to do well

01:09:58.380 and do good,

01:09:59.120 that are somehow

01:09:59.600 willing to take

01:10:00.320 a lower return

01:10:01.320 as long as they

01:10:02.620 somehow benefit

01:10:03.400 some corner of society.

01:10:05.380 Well,

01:10:05.820 there's going to be

01:10:06.360 a lot of capital

01:10:06.980 that's looking to do that

01:10:07.880 and that's going to be

01:10:08.860 an important part

01:10:09.840 of what creates

01:10:10.900 this inclusive,

01:10:11.660 sustainable growth world

01:10:12.900 that we're going to need.

01:10:14.480 That's going to be

01:10:15.080 this important part

01:10:16.880 of that community.

01:10:18.060 That community,

01:10:19.100 you know,

01:10:19.500 we said,

01:10:20.200 it's the market,

01:10:21.020 it's the state

01:10:21.640 and community

01:10:22.380 that have to work together

01:10:23.540 and we're going to need

01:10:24.620 that community

01:10:25.220 to be part of the solution.

01:10:27.460 So let me ask you

01:10:29.020 a question about that.

01:10:30.220 I mean,

01:10:30.400 I certainly understand

01:10:31.420 the direction

01:10:33.000 that you're trying

01:10:34.160 to aim

01:10:34.580 a certain percentage

01:10:36.400 of investors in

01:10:37.280 and I can imagine

01:10:38.020 that that would also be...

01:10:39.060 A small percent.

01:10:39.740 A very small percent.

01:10:40.520 Well,

01:10:41.080 and maybe a percent

01:10:42.400 of someone's portfolio

01:10:43.460 but I'm also wondering,

01:10:44.760 you know,

01:10:45.200 like one of the principles

01:10:46.360 that I've abided by

01:10:47.600 when attempting

01:10:48.900 to produce

01:10:50.000 even products

01:10:52.700 that are

01:10:53.740 of particular benefit

01:10:57.240 to people psychologically,

01:10:58.720 like I have a suite

01:10:59.540 of psychological interventions

01:11:01.320 online

01:11:01.800 that I've been marketing

01:11:02.840 to people

01:11:03.260 for about

01:11:04.280 two and a half decades.

01:11:05.340 I mean,

01:11:05.580 one of the principles

01:11:06.440 that we established,

01:11:08.480 my business partners

01:11:09.280 and I,

01:11:09.900 before we created

01:11:10.720 these interventions

01:11:12.640 was that

01:11:13.300 not only did they

01:11:14.800 have to be useful

01:11:15.960 so to do good,

01:11:17.320 not only did they

01:11:18.080 have to have,

01:11:19.860 that they had to be

01:11:20.660 of demonstrable good

01:11:22.000 but they also

01:11:23.960 had to do

01:11:24.960 competitively well.

01:11:26.360 So if I said,

01:11:27.180 well,

01:11:27.620 maybe,

01:11:28.040 so,

01:11:28.320 so is it too much

01:11:29.960 to ask

01:11:30.640 for people,

01:11:31.500 for example,

01:11:32.000 who are providing

01:11:33.000 affordable housing,

01:11:34.520 let's say,

01:11:35.080 that they do it

01:11:36.100 in such a canny manner

01:11:37.620 that they also

01:11:38.680 equal or beat

01:11:39.860 what you might expect

01:11:40.860 for standard market returns

01:11:42.220 and couldn't you use

01:11:43.500 that as an indication

01:11:44.720 of the quality

01:11:45.500 of their offering

01:11:46.280 or do you feel

01:11:47.440 that there are situations

01:11:48.600 where placing

01:11:49.800 both constraints

01:11:50.860 on people,

01:11:51.620 you know,

01:11:51.840 you have to do good

01:11:52.720 and you have to do well,

01:11:54.100 makes movement forward

01:11:55.400 too difficult?

01:11:56.980 Well,

01:11:57.220 let me give some numbers

01:11:58.560 to frame the challenge

01:12:00.440 and then answer

01:12:01.480 your question directly.

01:12:02.840 So,

01:12:03.400 as you probably remember,

01:12:04.540 the name of my company

01:12:05.320 is 1.6.

01:12:06.380 1.6%

01:12:07.820 of institutional assets

01:12:09.900 is $3.5 trillion.

01:12:11.840 So,

01:12:12.000 this is a little bit

01:12:12.500 like the Bjorn Lornburg number.

01:12:14.440 If we actually,

01:12:15.920 if institutional investors

01:12:17.380 and ultra-high net worth

01:12:18.540 individuals

01:12:19.140 were to allocate

01:12:20.400 1.6%

01:12:21.620 of their assets

01:12:22.260 per year

01:12:22.840 to these types

01:12:24.180 of investments

01:12:24.720 that we're talking about,

01:12:25.800 true double bottom line

01:12:26.880 investments,

01:12:27.840 affordable housing,

01:12:28.840 I can come up

01:12:29.460 with a number

01:12:30.400 of health,

01:12:31.080 financial inclusion,

01:12:32.580 education,

01:12:33.640 there are any number

01:12:34.140 of book nooks,

01:12:35.120 the number of

01:12:35.840 online learning tools

01:12:37.200 that are,

01:12:38.400 we could actually achieve

01:12:40.060 the United Nations

01:12:40.800 Sustainable Development Goals

01:12:42.040 by 2030.

01:12:43.120 So,

01:12:43.600 that is the amount

01:12:44.660 of private capital

01:12:45.520 that is needed

01:12:46.180 to fill the gap.

01:12:47.380 So,

01:12:47.600 just put that number

01:12:48.540 out there

01:12:48.880 so you can frame that.

01:12:49.900 But let me respond

01:12:51.100 more specifically

01:12:51.880 to your,

01:12:52.820 I think,

01:12:53.480 the one area

01:12:54.880 of investment

01:12:55.340 that I've spent

01:12:56.120 most of my time on

01:12:57.160 in the United States,

01:12:58.520 Jordan,

01:12:58.860 is affordable housing.

01:13:00.220 We are basically shy,

01:13:02.380 I mean,

01:13:02.680 we have a homelessness problem,

01:13:04.000 we have an affordable

01:13:04.920 housing problem.

01:13:05.820 There are only three ways

01:13:07.080 really genuinely

01:13:08.000 to build wealth

01:13:08.940 in a lifetime.

01:13:10.200 One is to start a business

01:13:11.320 or be an amazing podcaster

01:13:12.740 like yourself.

01:13:13.760 Two is to own

01:13:14.360 the S&P 500

01:13:15.220 for 30 years.

01:13:16.520 But the third one

01:13:17.220 is to own your own home

01:13:19.040 rather than rent.

01:13:20.320 So we need to have,

01:13:21.480 find a way

01:13:22.220 for there to continue

01:13:23.580 to be greater access

01:13:25.040 to home ownership

01:13:25.720 from those who right now

01:13:27.260 come out of college

01:13:28.240 with these student loans

01:13:29.180 and can't make a down payment.

01:13:30.260 We're going to have to find it.

01:13:30.940 It turns out

01:13:32.160 that the equity returns

01:13:33.600 on some of these

01:13:34.660 affordable housing programs

01:13:35.800 in Nashville,

01:13:36.580 in Austin,

01:13:37.660 across the country,

01:13:39.300 the equity returns

01:13:40.380 to the investors

01:13:40.980 are between 16%

01:13:42.160 and 18% a year.

01:13:44.100 Well, I'm sorry,

01:13:44.960 dear friend,

01:13:45.700 that is still 12% ahead of,

01:13:47.820 you know,

01:13:47.980 14% ahead of

01:13:49.500 the inflation rate

01:13:50.660 and well in line

01:13:52.160 with the actuarial needs

01:13:53.560 of a number

01:13:54.420 of the retirees.

01:13:56.180 If you can actually

01:13:57.240 have a 15% return,

01:13:59.160 you double your money

01:13:59.840 every five years.

01:14:00.580 Who doesn't want

01:14:01.140 to do that?

01:14:02.140 So an important part

01:14:04.360 of what we're doing

01:14:05.540 at my company

01:14:06.200 is highlighting

01:14:06.880 where these opportunities

01:14:08.900 for double bottom lines

01:14:10.560 truly exist.

01:14:11.740 It's something

01:14:12.260 that I would love

01:14:12.860 a future ARK forum

01:14:14.060 and we're talking about,

01:14:15.480 you know,

01:14:15.780 ARK in the United States

01:14:16.880 having,

01:14:17.680 it's one thing

01:14:18.360 that I would like

01:14:18.880 there to be a thread on

01:14:20.100 in ARK in the United States

01:14:21.480 because I think

01:14:21.920 the United States

01:14:22.740 has a far greater likelihood

01:14:24.440 of leading in philanthropy

01:14:25.860 and leading in

01:14:27.080 these creative solutions

01:14:28.380 than Europe

01:14:29.200 where they expect governments

01:14:30.200 to do everything.

01:14:31.080 Europe, you know,

01:14:31.820 there's hardly any

01:14:32.760 philanthropic giving

01:14:33.600 in Europe

01:14:34.160 because everyone,

01:14:34.880 well, it's the state,

01:14:35.720 you know,

01:14:36.200 there's zero philanthropic

01:14:37.560 giving in Russia

01:14:39.060 and China

01:14:39.700 because the state

01:14:40.700 is the only thing.

01:14:41.560 Imagine trying to be

01:14:42.540 a non-profit

01:14:43.160 in China

01:14:44.420 or Russia

01:14:45.460 solving problems.

01:14:46.760 You get outlawed.

01:14:48.140 So the very interesting

01:14:49.620 thing, though,

01:14:50.080 is a lot of creativity

01:14:51.560 is coming from

01:14:53.240 these various organizations

01:14:54.960 and I always give

01:14:55.700 a shout out

01:14:56.140 to my dear friend

01:14:56.880 Jim Sorensen

01:14:57.600 and the Sorensen

01:14:58.680 Impact team

01:14:59.460 which is in Salt Lake City.

01:15:00.540 You should also have

01:15:01.040 Jim Sorensen on

01:15:01.740 at some point.

01:15:02.760 So he pivoted

01:15:03.740 100% of his portfolio

01:15:05.900 three years ago,

01:15:08.060 Jordan,

01:15:08.440 to impact.

01:15:09.480 The only types

01:15:10.260 of investments

01:15:10.780 he makes now

01:15:11.360 have to have

01:15:11.820 verifiable impact

01:15:12.700 and he's outperforming

01:15:14.220 the market.

01:15:15.660 He's outperformed

01:15:16.400 the market by 100%.

01:15:17.820 Now, this is,

01:15:18.600 to me,

01:15:18.860 this is the sweet spot.

01:15:19.880 If you're outperforming

01:15:20.780 the market

01:15:21.120 and you're solving

01:15:22.120 some major social

01:15:23.200 and environmental problem

01:15:24.140 of the day,

01:15:25.520 I'm all in.

01:15:27.000 I'm all in.

01:15:27.920 Right, right.

01:15:28.460 So you are making

01:15:29.500 the case that,

01:15:30.440 like, with sufficient judgment

01:15:31.660 you can have your cake

01:15:32.720 and eat it too.

01:15:33.360 Well, that was my sense

01:15:34.500 with regards to

01:15:35.560 the strategy of...

01:15:37.640 Emphasis on the

01:15:38.440 sufficient judgment.

01:15:39.380 It's hard.

01:15:40.200 You have to be mindful

01:15:41.000 and there's a lot

01:15:41.760 of hokum out there.

01:15:42.680 There's a lot of

01:15:44.200 pretenders

01:15:45.300 and false gods

01:15:46.360 and cryptocurrency

01:15:47.580 traders

01:15:48.240 that have these,

01:15:49.320 you know,

01:15:49.600 situations.

01:15:50.220 You really must

01:15:51.160 do your homework

01:15:52.420 to make sure

01:15:53.380 that there is

01:15:53.820 verifiable additionality

01:15:55.540 that is to say

01:15:56.480 a dollar that is put

01:15:57.600 into the strategy

01:15:58.380 is going to create

01:15:59.560 a solution that

01:16:00.300 absent that dollar

01:16:01.120 does not happen.

01:16:02.580 There needs to be

01:16:03.160 real impact.

01:16:04.240 And that's something

01:16:04.760 that you can say

01:16:05.480 in affordable housing.

01:16:06.300 That's something

01:16:06.560 you can say

01:16:07.120 in some of these

01:16:08.100 educational initiatives,

01:16:09.760 financial inclusion initiatives.

01:16:11.820 Improving people's

01:16:12.620 FICO scores,

01:16:13.760 for example,

01:16:14.400 gives them direct access

01:16:15.520 to borrowing

01:16:16.960 and direct access.

01:16:17.940 And there's a whole business,

01:16:19.240 Operation Hope

01:16:19.880 in Atlanta,

01:16:20.400 a great NGO,

01:16:22.120 one of the organizations

01:16:23.500 I call an exemplar

01:16:24.560 of hope,

01:16:25.300 that has a proven pedagogy,

01:16:27.340 Jordan,

01:16:28.000 a proven pedagogy

01:16:29.140 that improves

01:16:30.280 inclusivity

01:16:31.120 and sustainability

01:16:32.260 without compromising

01:16:34.080 economic growth.

01:16:35.000 There are literally

01:16:35.680 dozens of these organizations

01:16:37.220 throughout the United States,

01:16:39.120 and a lot of what

01:16:40.140 they're doing

01:16:40.480 can be replicated

01:16:41.220 around the world.

01:16:42.220 So I've kind of got the,

01:16:43.680 you know,

01:16:44.280 Bjorn Lomborg

01:16:44.920 has done a really good job

01:16:45.980 on these top 12.

01:16:47.500 I've got the next ones

01:16:48.480 down on homelessness,

01:16:49.660 recidivism,

01:16:51.020 job opportunities.

01:16:52.020 Here's a great one

01:16:52.840 from Catholic Charities

01:16:53.820 Fort Worth in Dallas.

01:16:55.340 So it turns out,

01:16:56.120 as I'm sure you know,

01:16:57.540 95% of the community

01:16:59.180 college courses

01:16:59.940 that people take

01:17:00.660 in the United States

01:17:01.380 of America,

01:17:01.940 which are free,

01:17:02.720 basically,

01:17:03.440 do not lead

01:17:04.200 to a certification.

01:17:05.540 It turns out

01:17:06.080 a lot of people

01:17:06.800 taking those

01:17:07.280 community college courses,

01:17:08.640 it's a crazy waste

01:17:11.060 of money.

01:17:11.900 What did they learn

01:17:12.760 at Catholic Charities

01:17:13.720 Fort Worth?

01:17:14.720 They learned that

01:17:15.360 if they actually

01:17:16.220 give a caseworker

01:17:17.440 to everyone

01:17:18.100 who's trying

01:17:18.720 to get a community

01:17:19.440 college degree,

01:17:20.300 which is an expense,

01:17:21.380 it's like a Bjorn Lomborg

01:17:22.600 cost-benefit expense.

01:17:24.300 But if you get that,

01:17:25.240 the completion rates

01:17:26.600 multiply fivefold.

01:17:28.600 And then what happens?

01:17:29.900 Those mothers,

01:17:30.900 then they're usually

01:17:31.440 single mothers,

01:17:32.380 you know,

01:17:32.640 in their teens

01:17:33.360 or early 20s,

01:17:34.580 they go from

01:17:35.760 welfare dependency

01:17:37.200 to work and independence.

01:17:40.260 And this is where

01:17:41.280 we got to do.

01:17:42.200 This is what the call

01:17:43.240 for greater personal

01:17:44.060 responsibility tells us.

01:17:45.240 This is what the call

01:17:46.360 for Jacob's ladder

01:17:48.120 tells us.

01:17:48.980 This is what the call

01:17:49.800 for greater inclusivity

01:17:51.160 tells us.

01:17:51.900 This is what Abraham

01:17:52.840 would do if he were

01:17:53.600 alive today.

01:17:54.800 Right.

01:17:55.200 Okay, so that program

01:17:56.740 that you just described,

01:17:58.300 that's something akin

01:17:59.180 to a mentorship program

01:18:00.500 so that people

01:18:01.240 are going to college,

01:18:02.320 but they don't have guidance.

01:18:03.720 They don't have any way

01:18:04.620 of bouncing their plan

01:18:06.640 off someone.

01:18:07.920 And everyone needs that,

01:18:08.780 right?

01:18:08.800 And somebody's saying,

01:18:08.820 you know,

01:18:09.000 if you have mom

01:18:09.540 take care of little Juju

01:18:10.720 on Tuesday afternoons,

01:18:12.720 you can make this course.

01:18:14.020 You're able to make it

01:18:14.880 if you just adjust

01:18:15.600 your schedule

01:18:16.140 and drop off.

01:18:17.380 And here's another

01:18:18.240 daycare program

01:18:20.160 that you could use

01:18:21.040 that you haven't heard of.

01:18:22.380 That type of additional assistance.

01:18:23.680 Let me give you one,

01:18:24.360 though,

01:18:24.620 that I love even more,

01:18:26.020 which is teenage recidivism.

01:18:28.120 So it turns out

01:18:28.760 the Laboratory

01:18:29.220 for Economic Opportunity

01:18:30.660 at the University

01:18:31.260 of Notre Dame,

01:18:32.300 which is an anti-poverty lab,

01:18:34.360 studied what was going on

01:18:35.800 with teenage truants

01:18:36.840 in the state of Indiana.

01:18:38.180 And you know

01:18:38.760 what they found out, Jordan?

01:18:40.480 They found out

01:18:41.440 that if they teach

01:18:42.240 a course of Aristotelian ethics

01:18:44.260 to these 13, 14, 15,

01:18:46.940 16-year-old kids,

01:18:48.060 all of whom are brighter

01:18:49.020 than we give them credit for,

01:18:50.900 while they are going

01:18:51.860 through these truancy programs,

01:18:53.660 recidivism declines 70%.

01:18:56.560 These poor children,

01:18:59.540 God bless them,

01:19:00.200 have never had anybody

01:19:01.100 to tell them,

01:19:02.140 this is good,

01:19:03.840 this is evil,

01:19:04.740 this is what

01:19:07.760 an examined life

01:19:08.720 consists of,

01:19:09.740 this is what

01:19:10.380 an unexamined life

01:19:11.540 results in,

01:19:12.560 and they're reading

01:19:14.240 the original text,

01:19:15.080 they're reading Aristotle,

01:19:16.040 they're reading Plato.

01:19:17.280 You know,

01:19:17.540 I was very moved

01:19:19.040 by Os Guinness,

01:19:19.980 for example,

01:19:20.940 at ARC.

01:19:21.840 It's the kind of thing

01:19:22.680 that Os Guinness

01:19:23.680 would have designed himself.

01:19:26.660 So when you think

01:19:27.380 of these individual programs

01:19:29.520 that I'm describing,

01:19:31.280 another one that I love

01:19:32.400 here in New York City

01:19:33.500 is Ready, Willing,

01:19:34.560 and Abel,

01:19:34.960 we're in a New York studio here,

01:19:37.820 and I'm sure the folks

01:19:39.380 here have seen,

01:19:40.560 there are these guys

01:19:41.460 that are pushing buckets

01:19:42.740 on the street corners

01:19:43.900 around New York City,

01:19:45.200 and their job

01:19:45.820 is to sweep up the streets.

01:19:47.620 All of those guys

01:19:49.360 are homeless

01:19:50.120 or former incarcerees,

01:19:52.020 and they're given

01:19:52.820 a six-month opportunity

01:19:54.140 to decide

01:19:55.540 if they stay clean,

01:19:56.980 they stay off of drugs,

01:19:57.960 they sleep in the home

01:19:59.220 that are provided,

01:20:00.480 then there's a communal

01:20:01.720 living circumstance,

01:20:02.420 and they clean the streets

01:20:03.880 for which they are paid

01:20:04.740 by New York City.

01:20:05.840 They can then choose

01:20:06.940 from more than a dozen

01:20:08.080 accreditation programs,

01:20:10.340 ranging from

01:20:11.160 becoming a plumber

01:20:15.360 to becoming

01:20:16.280 a massage therapist

01:20:17.820 to any other,

01:20:19.220 and again, Jordan,

01:20:20.520 they are moved

01:20:21.100 from dependency

01:20:22.040 to independence,

01:20:23.800 from a life

01:20:24.560 of despair

01:20:26.140 to a life

01:20:26.860 of meaning,

01:20:27.640 fulfillment,

01:20:27.980 and purpose.

01:20:29.380 And these are oftentimes

01:20:31.440 funded by these social bonds

01:20:33.100 that are based

01:20:34.460 on outcomes.

01:20:36.660 The things that are going on

01:20:38.820 in this sort of

01:20:39.600 social engineering space,

01:20:41.260 social entrepreneurial space,

01:20:43.120 it's very exciting.

01:20:45.180 It's very exciting,

01:20:46.360 and something that I hope

01:20:47.640 future ARC forums

01:20:48.660 will be able to,

01:20:49.980 you know,

01:20:50.520 really put in bright lights,

01:20:52.520 solutions,

01:20:53.500 things that are working,

01:20:54.900 ways that we are changing

01:20:55.920 individuals' lives

01:20:57.240 in the moment

01:20:58.520 that is verifiably

01:21:00.260 not only fulfilling them,

01:21:01.960 but lowering the burden

01:21:03.320 on society,

01:21:04.540 taking people.

01:21:05.300 Reno, Nevada

01:21:05.960 has halved homelessness

01:21:07.160 in the last six months.

01:21:08.700 Do you know how Reno, Nevada

01:21:09.800 halved the homeless rate?

01:21:11.580 No, no.

01:21:11.960 They built enough

01:21:13.520 affordable housing,

01:21:14.700 and then they made it a law

01:21:16.720 you cannot sleep

01:21:17.580 on the streets.

01:21:19.040 You are arrested

01:21:19.880 if you stay on the streets.

01:21:21.440 So everybody had a place to go.

01:21:23.200 They had to go

01:21:23.800 to these places.

01:21:24.800 Guess what happened

01:21:25.420 when they went

01:21:25.820 to these affordable...

01:21:26.460 They were then given

01:21:27.340 career counseling.

01:21:28.400 Those who had drug problems

01:21:29.300 were given drug attention.

01:21:31.240 Those who are mentally ill,

01:21:32.940 and a good part

01:21:33.580 of our homeless problem

01:21:34.520 in this country

01:21:35.220 is mentally ill people.

01:21:36.580 We let them ride

01:21:37.220 the subways here.

01:21:38.200 It's crazy.

01:21:39.100 No.

01:21:39.660 They have to be put

01:21:40.620 into programs, Jordan,

01:21:42.400 that actually matches them

01:21:43.740 with the needs

01:21:44.340 that they have.

01:21:44.820 I don't need to tell you this.

01:21:47.520 And there's this.

01:21:48.460 So Reno, Nevada

01:21:49.360 has done something

01:21:50.480 that San Francisco

01:21:51.740 and L.A.

01:21:53.920 need to figure out.

01:21:54.800 We have more than enough

01:21:56.700 space in the city

01:21:57.880 of New York

01:21:58.400 to put homeless people.

01:21:59.920 In fact,

01:22:00.300 there's always enough beds

01:22:01.500 in the city of New York

01:22:02.300 for homeless people.

01:22:04.040 But then combining that

01:22:05.460 with the proper level

01:22:06.700 of training,

01:22:09.020 counseling,

01:22:09.360 to get to independence

01:22:11.120 is what's necessary.

01:22:12.440 Okay, so I would like

01:22:15.180 to hear some more

01:22:16.220 of these solutions,

01:22:17.000 but maybe right now

01:22:17.900 you could also,

01:22:18.700 I'm curious too,

01:22:20.320 how are people,

01:22:22.840 how could people

01:22:23.580 who are watching

01:22:24.280 and listening

01:22:24.860 participate in programs

01:22:26.160 like this,

01:22:26.780 and where could they

01:22:28.340 turn to

01:22:29.080 for the kind of

01:22:30.000 investment advice

01:22:31.300 into these programs

01:22:32.740 that you would regard

01:22:34.640 as credible

01:22:35.320 and reliable?

01:22:36.860 Yeah.

01:22:37.380 Yeah, so I've got

01:22:38.700 to be careful here

01:22:39.380 because this becomes

01:22:40.180 very self-promotional.

01:22:43.800 Well, that's okay.

01:22:44.540 We can let people

01:22:45.280 start through that

01:22:46.080 themselves.

01:22:46.680 Okay, well,

01:22:47.160 my website,

01:22:48.280 www.1.6.com,

01:22:50.700 highlights a whole range

01:22:51.880 of these investment

01:22:52.680 possibilities,

01:22:53.600 and I have a,

01:22:54.900 what I call

01:22:55.340 a curated town square,

01:22:57.100 which is called

01:22:57.580 the Solutions Forum,

01:22:59.100 and on the Solutions Forum,

01:23:00.400 where I post,

01:23:01.420 for example,

01:23:01.800 my video from ARK,

01:23:03.300 but any others,

01:23:04.340 is an open source,

01:23:06.220 anyone who wants

01:23:06.900 to put out their ideas

01:23:08.140 for what they're doing

01:23:08.960 on homelessness,

01:23:09.640 what they're doing

01:23:10.100 on these various

01:23:10.960 social issues,

01:23:12.000 are able to choose.

01:23:13.160 So that would be

01:23:13.940 one area

01:23:14.840 that I would suggest.

01:23:16.520 An exemplar of hope,

01:23:18.260 which is something

01:23:19.040 that I've trademarked,

01:23:20.520 is, and it's global,

01:23:22.040 they have a bunch of these,

01:23:23.360 there's a wonderful one

01:23:25.000 in the UK

01:23:25.840 called Make It Click,

01:23:27.080 which goes home to home

01:23:28.280 and teaches people

01:23:29.100 how to use internet services

01:23:30.780 and how to actually

01:23:31.600 gain access

01:23:32.380 to the information

01:23:33.500 that's already

01:23:33.980 in their homes

01:23:34.500 that they didn't know

01:23:35.060 that was available to them.

01:23:36.740 Make It Click program.

01:23:38.260 These various exemplars

01:23:40.120 have many opportunities

01:23:41.800 for volunteerism,

01:23:44.320 for other forms

01:23:46.440 of time,

01:23:49.400 or talent and treasure.

01:23:51.020 That's what

01:23:51.420 the philanthropic world needs,

01:23:53.160 time, talent, and treasure.

01:23:54.740 All three are needed.

01:23:57.080 But in terms of scaling

01:23:59.060 some of the very,

01:23:59.800 very best ideas,

01:24:00.780 I mean,

01:24:01.620 anybody out there

01:24:02.380 wants to volunteer

01:24:03.200 to teach Aristotelian ethics

01:24:05.180 in their local

01:24:06.260 delinquency center,

01:24:07.640 there's ways to learn

01:24:08.400 how to do that.

01:24:09.300 And I will promise you,

01:24:11.340 Jordan,

01:24:12.020 the people that choose to,

01:24:12.960 it's what you do

01:24:13.520 for a living, by the way,

01:24:14.760 but the people who do that

01:24:15.960 will find those days

01:24:17.140 to be the most fulfilling

01:24:18.120 of their lives.

01:24:19.120 Right, right.

01:24:19.780 Definitely.

01:24:20.020 They're going to come home

01:24:21.860 and just say,

01:24:22.480 I did something today.

01:24:24.300 You said something

01:24:24.980 that I wrote down

01:24:25.980 at the R Conference

01:24:27.060 in London,

01:24:27.540 which is that

01:24:28.080 there is no difference

01:24:29.380 between thinking about ourselves

01:24:31.100 and being miserable.

01:24:32.500 To the extent

01:24:33.160 that we're focused

01:24:33.800 on ourselves

01:24:34.600 and our own needs

01:24:35.340 and our wants,

01:24:36.380 literally,

01:24:36.920 that is the recipe

01:24:37.520 for human misery.

01:24:38.640 You want to actually

01:24:39.640 be non-miserable,

01:24:41.140 then operate

01:24:42.020 with the third pillar

01:24:43.200 of Catholic social teaching,

01:24:45.940 which is solidarity.

01:24:47.460 We are our brothers

01:24:48.620 and sisters' keepers.

01:24:50.520 And by the way,

01:24:51.240 I put in that same category,

01:24:53.220 civility.

01:24:53.920 I think it's very,

01:24:55.140 very, very possible

01:24:56.160 for all of us

01:24:57.000 to contribute

01:24:57.820 to a greater culture

01:24:58.760 of civility.

01:25:00.280 And by the way,

01:25:01.480 that means being

01:25:02.040 better listeners

01:25:02.720 as a start

01:25:04.820 and trying to respond to,

01:25:06.580 I've had my niece,

01:25:07.740 the one that I worry about

01:25:09.060 not wanting to have children,

01:25:10.100 I think she's changing her mind,

01:25:11.480 come to my lectures

01:25:12.420 and read my,

01:25:13.500 and just say,

01:25:14.300 please, you know,

01:25:15.720 Claire, criticize me.

01:25:16.740 What did I get wrong?

01:25:18.240 Tell me what this is.

01:25:19.300 Did you have a chance

01:25:20.060 to read this?

01:25:20.800 Did you see this?

01:25:22.660 And I can't give up.

01:25:24.440 You know,

01:25:24.980 I can't give up, Jordan.

01:25:27.580 It would be wrong

01:25:28.400 for me to give up.

01:25:29.920 And it's wrong

01:25:30.620 for any of us to give up.

01:25:32.260 Abraham didn't give up,

01:25:33.240 did he?

01:25:34.740 So this 1.6.com,

01:25:36.940 is that written out?

01:25:38.340 1-O-N-E-P?

01:25:38.940 No, 1 is numeric,

01:25:40.620 0.6 is alphabetic.

01:25:42.420 I also have my own book,

01:25:44.820 Sustainable,

01:25:45.800 which was endorsed

01:25:46.600 by Pope Francis

01:25:47.440 and Larry Fink wrote the foreword

01:25:49.020 that talks about

01:25:50.220 these dozens of these

01:25:51.860 exemplars of hope

01:25:52.900 just as examples

01:25:54.060 and also provides

01:25:55.440 this criticism of the ESG,

01:25:57.220 which I'm not going to leave.

01:25:59.000 I believe that we would be

01:26:00.080 better off just abandoning

01:26:01.500 the whole project,

01:26:02.920 moving on.

01:26:04.220 Acronym-based investing,

01:26:06.120 remember the BRICS?

01:26:07.180 We were supposed to only invest

01:26:08.140 in the BRICS for a while,

01:26:09.200 Brazil, Russia, India, China.

01:26:10.600 Well, that's not the right

01:26:11.780 investment strategy.

01:26:13.000 Then there was the FANG,

01:26:14.480 Facebook, Alphabet,

01:26:16.740 Netflix, Google.

01:26:18.020 That made no sense anymore.

01:26:19.960 So we need to move on

01:26:23.120 from ESG,

01:26:24.220 understand that it was

01:26:25.120 well-intended,

01:26:26.460 but that there's

01:26:26.980 better solutions.

01:26:28.260 There's better ways

01:26:28.960 for us to achieve

01:26:29.720 greater inclusivity.

01:26:31.120 There's better ways

01:26:31.820 for us to achieve

01:26:32.520 greater sustainability.

01:26:33.540 And I put another

01:26:34.240 fine point on this.

01:26:35.140 I think B corporations,

01:26:36.920 you probably know

01:26:38.140 B corporations are these

01:26:39.460 corporations that promise

01:26:40.480 to operate in accordance

01:26:42.780 with very strict ethical rules,

01:26:44.220 very strict environmental rules.

01:26:46.520 I say, great.

01:26:47.880 Working for a B corporation

01:26:49.300 is wonderful.

01:26:50.140 It leads to a great conscience.

01:26:51.780 Just don't have any of those

01:26:53.240 in your 401k

01:26:54.400 because you won't be able

01:26:55.620 to retire.

01:26:57.720 Yeah, well,

01:26:58.220 what that shows is that

01:27:00.000 what happens is that

01:27:02.060 the appearance of moral effort

01:27:04.540 is substituted

01:27:05.540 for actual moral effort.

01:27:07.480 And that's why

01:27:07.940 those companies underperform.

01:27:09.480 Like, one of the things

01:27:10.600 we should point out

01:27:11.460 to people who are watching

01:27:12.480 and listening

01:27:13.020 in keeping with

01:27:13.900 what you just said

01:27:14.620 is that there is

01:27:15.560 no magic bullet

01:27:16.380 to investing.

01:27:17.480 It is no simpler

01:27:19.220 to invest your money

01:27:20.280 than it is to earn it.

01:27:21.860 Those are equivalent problems

01:27:23.280 and you have to be

01:27:24.180 one wise and awake person

01:27:25.800 to figure out

01:27:26.780 where to put your money

01:27:27.660 so that it will

01:27:28.520 generate a return

01:27:29.580 and that's probably

01:27:30.340 the first thing

01:27:31.200 you should be looking for

01:27:32.200 because if the people

01:27:33.080 who have your money

01:27:34.520 can't do that

01:27:35.340 they probably can't

01:27:36.120 do anything else.

01:27:37.280 And then the second thing

01:27:38.200 you should consider is

01:27:39.180 well, is this the sort

01:27:40.200 of enterprise

01:27:40.680 that you believe

01:27:41.540 in your soul

01:27:42.300 is worth supporting

01:27:43.500 because you're actually

01:27:44.180 morally obligated

01:27:45.160 to do wise things

01:27:46.120 with your money as well.

01:27:47.540 Not least to demonstrate

01:27:48.900 to yourself

01:27:49.660 that you have some respect

01:27:50.980 for the time and effort

01:27:52.340 you invested

01:27:53.080 into generating

01:27:53.880 the money to begin with.

01:27:55.360 And I suppose not least

01:27:56.560 because poorly invested money

01:27:58.320 can do an awful lot

01:27:59.180 of damage.

01:28:00.340 Right?

01:28:00.500 The last thing you want

01:28:01.340 to do is give

01:28:01.980 dangerous idiots money.

01:28:03.800 I need to give you

01:28:04.900 an amen,

01:28:05.700 a double amen,

01:28:06.380 a triple amen

01:28:06.900 on all of that

01:28:07.640 and just maybe add

01:28:08.900 for the listeners

01:28:09.560 that we think a lot

01:28:11.180 about our physical health.

01:28:12.380 We think a lot

01:28:12.920 about our emotional health.

01:28:13.920 We think a lot

01:28:14.400 about our mental health.

01:28:15.740 We go to the gym.

01:28:16.800 We're careful

01:28:17.200 with what we eat.

01:28:18.200 We need to be equally mindful

01:28:19.860 about our financial health,

01:28:21.800 particularly in this age

01:28:23.160 of aging.

01:28:24.380 Almost everyone

01:28:25.200 listening to this podcast

01:28:26.360 is going to end up

01:28:28.880 outliving their parents

01:28:30.100 and they're going

01:28:31.120 to be there

01:28:31.520 in their 80s.

01:28:32.960 And if all they have

01:28:35.200 is Social Security,

01:28:36.440 they do not have

01:28:37.200 a meaningful life.

01:28:38.340 You're going to have

01:28:39.200 to have some type

01:28:40.080 of nest egg.

01:28:41.020 We are living longer

01:28:42.060 and I'm saying this

01:28:43.280 to everybody

01:28:43.620 in the room as well.

01:28:44.940 What you have to do

01:28:45.860 with your 401k

01:28:46.860 is put it in the stock market

01:28:48.660 when you're young

01:28:49.240 and forget about it.

01:28:51.080 Don't even look at it

01:28:52.220 until you turn 65.

01:28:54.000 When you turn 65,

01:28:54.940 you're going to open and say,

01:28:55.540 wow, I've got $2 million

01:28:56.260 in savings.

01:28:57.100 How did I do that?

01:28:57.840 You did it by not

01:28:59.060 bothering with it.

01:28:59.920 You just let it go.

01:29:01.440 Be mindful about

01:29:02.320 your savings patterns.

01:29:03.880 Be mindful about

01:29:04.640 your investment patterns.

01:29:06.240 If you are so wealthy

01:29:07.640 and you have so much time

01:29:08.640 and you want to go

01:29:09.560 for double bottom line

01:29:10.560 investing or you have

01:29:12.000 a desire to have your money

01:29:13.240 do well and do good,

01:29:14.440 well, that's fine too.

01:29:15.920 But it's still going

01:29:16.580 to require mindfulness.

01:29:17.780 It's still going

01:29:18.200 to require deep care.

01:29:19.480 It's still going

01:29:19.800 to require discernment

01:29:21.440 because there's

01:29:22.320 no easy way to.

01:29:23.520 Just like you have

01:29:24.380 to be careful

01:29:24.880 about your physical health,

01:29:27.020 you have to be careful

01:29:28.320 about your financial health.

01:29:30.560 Yeah, well,

01:29:31.000 I studied for a while

01:29:32.380 the phenomenon

01:29:33.320 of money managers

01:29:34.300 because I was interested

01:29:35.480 in investigating

01:29:37.380 the possibility

01:29:38.180 that there were

01:29:38.760 statistical ways

01:29:39.680 of predicting market behavior.

01:29:41.240 And I basically concluded,

01:29:43.100 not that this was unique

01:29:44.040 to me,

01:29:44.460 but at least

01:29:44.960 to my own satisfaction,

01:29:46.120 that that was actually

01:29:47.280 a technically impossible

01:29:48.320 outcome to perform,

01:29:49.880 except in very rare cases.

01:29:51.960 And so that your best bet,

01:29:53.700 and this is the advice

01:29:54.840 that you gave earlier,

01:29:55.800 is if you're,

01:29:56.520 especially if you're

01:29:57.240 the average investor,

01:29:58.480 is to buy something

01:29:59.460 like an index fund

01:30:00.420 with a low manager fee

01:30:02.120 and just leave it

01:30:02.920 the hell alone

01:30:03.540 because you're not

01:30:04.180 going to beat that.

01:30:06.500 Now,

01:30:07.760 let me give you

01:30:08.840 a statistic for that.

01:30:09.860 Only one out of five managers

01:30:11.580 beats the S&P 500

01:30:13.260 over a five-year period.

01:30:15.340 Only one out of ten

01:30:16.420 over a ten-year period.

01:30:17.840 And they aren't

01:30:18.500 the same manager.

01:30:20.200 Right.

01:30:20.540 They aren't the same manager.

01:30:21.560 Precisely.

01:30:21.700 So the idea

01:30:24.260 that somehow

01:30:24.760 you're smart enough,

01:30:25.600 oh,

01:30:25.740 I'm going to buy

01:30:26.560 Netflix and Google

01:30:27.660 and hang on to it

01:30:28.480 and see what I can,

01:30:29.360 it's nuts.

01:30:30.580 You cannot be smarter

01:30:31.620 than the market.

01:30:32.420 Something so easy,

01:30:33.640 you can buy it

01:30:34.220 for one basis point

01:30:35.120 at Vanguard,

01:30:36.520 Fidelity,

01:30:37.040 any number of places,

01:30:38.240 and just put it in place

01:30:39.980 and forget it.

01:30:40.660 The older you get,

01:30:41.780 start buying some bonds

01:30:42.760 and having an income stream,

01:30:44.480 and then,

01:30:45.380 but more importantly,

01:30:46.340 volunteer your time,

01:30:47.600 look after your community,

01:30:49.040 be involved with those

01:30:49.860 in need around you,

01:30:50.680 be there for your

01:30:51.220 brothers and sisters,

01:30:52.040 your grandkids,

01:30:52.900 and others.

01:30:53.440 That's where you're going

01:30:53.940 to want to spend your time.

01:30:55.200 Right, right, right.

01:30:56.360 Now, you said that you had,

01:30:58.220 that Larry Fink

01:30:59.020 wrote the intro

01:31:00.160 to your book,

01:31:01.020 and that's interesting

01:31:02.080 because Larry Fink

01:31:03.060 is probably the world's

01:31:04.200 most famous proponent

01:31:05.920 of the ESG strategy.

01:31:08.080 And so,

01:31:08.840 how did that come about?

01:31:10.620 And,

01:31:11.100 well,

01:31:12.220 I presume you obviously

01:31:13.960 must know Larry,

01:31:14.920 and what does he think

01:31:15.980 of your ideas,

01:31:17.560 and why did he write

01:31:18.420 the foreword

01:31:18.880 to your book?

01:31:21.600 Well,

01:31:22.060 this is,

01:31:22.520 how many people

01:31:23.120 are listening

01:31:23.480 to this podcast,

01:31:24.600 Jordan,

01:31:24.860 because this is

01:31:25.300 quite a personal story.

01:31:27.280 Oh,

01:31:28.600 somewhere between

01:31:29.520 350,000 and a million.

01:31:33.580 But,

01:31:34.100 you know,

01:31:34.580 obviously.

01:31:35.480 I'm going to tell

01:31:36.120 the story.

01:31:36.700 I'm going to tell

01:31:37.060 the story.

01:31:38.560 It's a story worth telling.

01:31:39.560 And it reflects

01:31:40.260 very well on Larry Fink

01:31:41.460 and my colleagues

01:31:42.420 at BlackRock.

01:31:42.960 So,

01:31:43.480 I was a very senior

01:31:44.400 executive of BlackRock.

01:31:45.740 I went to the

01:31:46.920 group executive board.

01:31:47.940 I said,

01:31:48.180 I wanted to write

01:31:48.720 this book on ESG.

01:31:50.160 I didn't know

01:31:50.680 where it was going

01:31:51.100 to take me,

01:31:51.660 Jordan.

01:31:52.100 ESG was a relatively

01:31:53.580 new thing.

01:31:55.240 I wanted to spend time.

01:31:56.840 I didn't have my ideas

01:31:58.800 so poorly.

01:32:00.080 As I went into the book

01:32:02.020 and as I started studying

01:32:03.260 all these ESG ratings

01:32:04.760 and the fact that

01:32:05.560 they're completely

01:32:06.560 uncorrelated,

01:32:07.480 and frankly,

01:32:08.000 they're a bunch of nonsense,

01:32:09.560 they made no sense,

01:32:10.840 I ended up becoming

01:32:11.820 more critical of what

01:32:13.700 was coming out on ESG.

01:32:15.800 And I'm still submitting

01:32:16.840 all of these chapters

01:32:17.620 to my colleagues

01:32:18.340 and Columbia University Press,

01:32:20.020 Columbia is my publisher,

01:32:22.280 and I'm thinking

01:32:23.320 that I'm, you know,

01:32:24.540 hunky-dory on my way.

01:32:26.260 Well, it turns out

01:32:27.440 when the book finished,

01:32:28.600 my senior executives

01:32:30.460 at BlackRock said,

01:32:31.220 you can't publish this book.

01:32:33.000 This book is a little

01:32:34.080 too racy.

01:32:35.120 I said, well,

01:32:35.680 I'm sorry.

01:32:37.740 I think that we agreed

01:32:39.200 that we would.

01:32:40.680 Well, go speak to the boss.

01:32:41.940 So I went to speak to Larry

01:32:43.020 and I said, Larry,

01:32:45.080 Larry goes,

01:32:45.760 and he said,

01:32:46.140 this is very simple.

01:32:46.980 I have a simple solution.

01:32:48.340 I'll write the foreword

01:32:49.180 to the book.

01:32:49.800 And what does Larry write

01:32:50.900 in the foreword to the book?

01:32:52.140 I commend it to you.

01:32:53.920 He's very complimentary of me.

01:32:55.700 He's very complimentary

01:32:57.340 of the work that I do

01:32:58.140 in the book,

01:32:58.440 but says,

01:32:58.860 I don't agree with everything

01:32:59.860 Terry says.

01:33:01.180 So very simple.

01:33:03.040 Very simple.

01:33:04.160 You know,

01:33:04.280 get out of jail.

01:33:05.140 And Larry,

01:33:05.940 to his great credit,

01:33:06.760 and I have nothing

01:33:07.260 but great things to say

01:33:08.140 about Larry,

01:33:08.560 I think he is a close friend,

01:33:09.640 always welcomed the debate.

01:33:12.940 Today,

01:33:13.620 Larry Fink does not use

01:33:14.800 the term ESG.

01:33:16.020 He has stricken it

01:33:16.840 from his vocabulary

01:33:17.620 because he's decided

01:33:18.940 it is overly politicized

01:33:20.460 and it means

01:33:21.320 the wrong thing.

01:33:22.260 It's not.

01:33:22.800 So I would say

01:33:23.760 I probably get some credit

01:33:25.260 for that.

01:33:26.120 You know,

01:33:26.920 Larry Fink's not using ESG.

01:33:28.900 You know,

01:33:29.300 one down,

01:33:29.980 four billion to go.

01:33:30.820 Let's focus on impact investing.

01:33:34.040 Let's focus on

01:33:35.000 true double bottom line.

01:33:36.320 And let's focus

01:33:36.980 on making sure

01:33:37.780 that asset owners,

01:33:38.900 those who are investors,

01:33:40.220 get what they really want.

01:33:42.180 I mean,

01:33:42.360 I advise the Pope,

01:33:43.880 you know,

01:33:45.040 on finances.

01:33:46.180 I've advised

01:33:46.980 the world's largest

01:33:47.740 sovereign wealth funds.

01:33:48.760 I always only ask

01:33:50.100 one question,

01:33:51.000 Jordan.

01:33:51.980 What are you trying to do?

01:33:53.540 If I were your financial advisor,

01:33:55.060 I would do the same thing.

01:33:56.080 What are you,

01:33:56.960 Jordan Peterson,

01:33:57.660 trying to do?

01:33:58.580 What are your goals?

01:33:59.520 Lay it out.

01:34:00.000 Give me your plan.

01:34:00.920 What are you trying to do?

01:34:02.860 And then it is

01:34:03.640 my fiduciary duty

01:34:05.320 to make sure

01:34:06.380 that I devise

01:34:07.580 the most cost-effective,

01:34:10.320 efficient,

01:34:11.400 and highest probability

01:34:13.200 portfolio solution

01:34:14.780 that will actually achieve

01:34:16.560 what your goals are.

01:34:17.940 That's what being

01:34:18.740 a fiduciary means.

01:34:20.080 And I can say

01:34:21.380 with my heart,

01:34:22.720 my hand on my heart,

01:34:24.160 that in the 13 years

01:34:25.580 that I was at BlackRock,

01:34:26.620 I never did anything but that.

01:34:27.940 I never sold

01:34:28.480 a single ESG fund

01:34:29.540 when I was at BlackRock

01:34:31.340 and I did more than

01:34:32.200 $130 trillion worth

01:34:34.000 of transactions,

01:34:34.760 which is a lot of transactions,

01:34:36.500 and never once

01:34:37.320 sold an ESG fund

01:34:38.180 because they were

01:34:39.240 never the right solution.

01:34:41.260 They were never

01:34:41.880 the right solution.

01:34:43.500 You said that you had

01:34:45.120 worked with Pope Francis

01:34:46.680 and I've been struck,

01:34:49.280 and I would say

01:34:50.140 primarily negatively,

01:34:52.540 by what I've seen

01:34:54.260 as his emphasis

01:34:55.440 on climate responsibility,

01:34:58.660 let's say.

01:34:59.120 My sense is that

01:35:00.380 the proper responsibility

01:35:02.380 of the Church

01:35:03.240 is the salvation

01:35:04.200 of individual souls,

01:35:05.500 and that that sort of thing

01:35:07.380 is contentious

01:35:09.500 and political enough

01:35:10.520 so that it's actually

01:35:11.420 not the proper business

01:35:12.660 of the Church.

01:35:13.960 Now,

01:35:14.220 I don't know much

01:35:15.080 about Pope Francis,

01:35:16.820 and apart from

01:35:17.840 that particular criticism,

01:35:19.740 I would say,

01:35:20.720 and the small knowledge

01:35:22.100 that was required

01:35:22.900 to generate it,

01:35:23.680 I'm quite ignorant.

01:35:25.080 Would you tell me

01:35:26.500 and our viewers

01:35:27.960 what your experience

01:35:31.140 was in working

01:35:32.440 with Pope Francis

01:35:33.420 on such ideas?

01:35:37.720 I will do so with joy.

01:35:40.880 I always say,

01:35:41.880 you know,

01:35:42.920 Jordan,

01:35:43.680 that my Catholic Church

01:35:44.840 has the heart

01:35:45.520 of Pope Francis,

01:35:46.540 the brains of Benedict XVI,

01:35:48.400 and the fortitude

01:35:49.360 of John Paul II,

01:35:50.620 and it turns out

01:35:51.480 those three individuals

01:35:52.380 didn't agree on a lot.

01:35:54.540 And Pope Francis

01:35:55.440 is someone

01:35:56.180 who has definitely

01:35:58.460 veered into

01:35:59.320 a number of economic

01:36:00.640 and social topics

01:36:01.540 that I do not

01:36:02.940 personally agree with.

01:36:04.320 But having been a Catholic

01:36:05.420 all 64 years of my life,

01:36:07.380 I note that

01:36:08.200 the Church's

01:36:09.140 teachings evolve.

01:36:11.140 Let me tell you,

01:36:11.740 though,

01:36:11.820 a personal story

01:36:12.600 about Pope Francis.

01:36:14.200 So during the time

01:36:15.280 that I was working

01:36:16.320 on his Vatican

01:36:17.100 Financial Reform Commission,

01:36:18.400 I lived in the exact

01:36:19.440 same residence

01:36:20.200 where he lived,

01:36:20.660 which is Santa Marta

01:36:21.540 within,

01:36:21.880 at the Vatican City State.

01:36:24.420 And every morning

01:36:25.140 I was allowed

01:36:25.620 to go to Mass.

01:36:26.920 And one morning

01:36:27.880 I was at Mass

01:36:29.380 and there was

01:36:29.780 just a horrible smell.

01:36:31.700 And I couldn't figure out

01:36:32.540 what this horrible smell was.

01:36:33.760 This is a fairly

01:36:34.360 curated audience.

01:36:35.640 And I look over

01:36:37.040 my right shoulder

01:36:38.320 and I see

01:36:38.940 there's a homeless guy

01:36:40.040 with two dogs

01:36:41.080 right behind me.

01:36:42.520 And I'm thinking to myself,

01:36:43.980 well,

01:36:44.380 security was a little laxed today,

01:36:46.680 not sure how

01:36:47.300 this happened.

01:36:49.100 So we go out

01:36:50.460 to breakfast

01:36:51.200 and breakfast

01:36:51.840 at Santa Marta

01:36:53.560 is served

01:36:54.480 cafeteria style.

01:36:56.180 So the Pope

01:36:57.060 is helping himself

01:36:57.780 to eggs

01:36:58.220 just as you're

01:36:58.760 leaning over

01:36:59.160 for a piece of bacon

01:37:00.000 and you're smiling

01:37:01.100 with one another

01:37:01.740 and it's a very

01:37:02.360 cordial affair.

01:37:03.640 But I sit down

01:37:04.240 and I said,

01:37:04.500 you know,

01:37:05.980 there was some people

01:37:06.780 in the back

01:37:07.400 of the chapel

01:37:08.300 this morning.

01:37:08.900 Does anybody

01:37:09.400 know what's going on?

01:37:10.160 Oh, yeah,

01:37:10.620 you don't know?

01:37:11.380 I said,

01:37:11.560 no, I don't know.

01:37:12.380 I said,

01:37:12.560 well, yes.

01:37:13.520 Every night,

01:37:15.000 Pope Francis

01:37:15.560 sends one of his emissaries

01:37:16.900 out to the bridges

01:37:18.600 in Rome

01:37:19.660 and finds homeless people

01:37:21.580 and invites them

01:37:22.900 to come to mass

01:37:23.760 the next morning.

01:37:24.760 They usually do that

01:37:25.640 at between 11

01:37:26.320 and 1 o'clock

01:37:27.280 in the morning,

01:37:27.800 11 p.m.

01:37:28.220 or 1 o'clock

01:37:28.580 in the morning.

01:37:29.360 And this particular

01:37:30.280 individual said,

01:37:31.100 well,

01:37:31.300 I'd like to come,

01:37:32.360 but I can't

01:37:32.920 because I have two dogs.

01:37:34.300 And they said,

01:37:34.940 you're allowed

01:37:35.240 to bring the dogs.

01:37:36.740 So this person

01:37:38.020 was the personal invitee

01:37:40.220 of Pope Francis

01:37:41.560 to come and hear

01:37:42.420 the word of the Lord.

01:37:44.140 By the way,

01:37:44.760 he was also given

01:37:45.440 a shower,

01:37:46.160 a shampoo,

01:37:46.780 and a shave

01:37:47.300 at the end of it.

01:37:48.520 Pope Francis instituted

01:37:50.100 in the Vatican City State

01:37:51.580 a free barbershop

01:37:53.020 for anybody

01:37:53.760 in Rome

01:37:54.760 who wants to come in

01:37:55.840 and get cleaned up.

01:37:56.700 That's paid for

01:37:57.460 by the Vatican.

01:37:59.360 So I think

01:37:59.800 this is a story

01:38:00.800 that I hope

01:38:01.840 reveals the heart

01:38:04.380 of Pope Francis,

01:38:05.820 who is a good man.

01:38:06.580 I don't know

01:38:07.020 about you,

01:38:08.000 Jordan,

01:38:08.320 but being in charge

01:38:09.160 of 1.2 billion souls

01:38:10.680 on the planet,

01:38:11.920 that's one hell

01:38:12.560 of a burden.

01:38:13.520 Being in charge

01:38:14.180 of an organization

01:38:15.680 that is as political

01:38:16.720 as the church is

01:38:19.160 with as wide views

01:38:21.220 politically

01:38:21.700 as you can possibly imagine,

01:38:24.340 from liberation theologists

01:38:26.760 who are full-blown Marxists

01:38:28.260 to some of the most conservative

01:38:29.540 people on the planet,

01:38:30.260 all of those people

01:38:30.980 are Catholics

01:38:31.500 under one roof.

01:38:33.160 To actually try

01:38:34.400 to be the shepherd

01:38:36.100 for that flock

01:38:37.000 is not a task

01:38:39.020 that I envy.

01:38:40.420 And I'll also just point out

01:38:41.780 that there are only

01:38:42.280 three monarchies

01:38:43.560 left on the planet.

01:38:45.340 Pope Francis

01:38:45.860 is one of them.

01:38:46.980 Crown Prince

01:38:47.640 Mohammed bin Salman

01:38:48.980 of Saudi Arabia

01:38:49.640 is another.

01:38:50.440 And the Sultan of Brunei.

01:38:52.280 What these three guys say

01:38:53.760 goes in their country.

01:38:55.000 Whatever they do,

01:38:56.000 that's the law.

01:38:57.380 And so the heavy

01:38:59.680 is the head

01:39:00.240 that bears the crown.

01:39:01.540 Heavy is the head

01:39:02.400 that bears the pontiff

01:39:03.500 hats.

01:39:05.200 And my respect

01:39:07.520 for Pope Francis

01:39:08.320 and what he's trying to do

01:39:09.380 is eternal.

01:39:10.960 I respectfully disagree

01:39:12.520 with him on things.

01:39:13.580 But the Catholic Church,

01:39:15.200 like every church,

01:39:16.100 like any listener,

01:39:17.540 believer,

01:39:18.480 it's the community

01:39:20.520 of believers

01:39:21.040 that ultimately

01:39:21.700 make that community.

01:39:23.080 There is such a thing

01:39:24.060 as the congregation

01:39:25.500 of the laity.

01:39:26.260 The laity within

01:39:27.140 the Catholic Church

01:39:27.800 has a lot to say.

01:39:29.440 And those of us

01:39:30.620 who have disagreements

01:39:31.600 with church,

01:39:32.220 I'm writing this article

01:39:33.140 with Erika Kasselau

01:39:34.260 right now

01:39:34.840 on the issue

01:39:36.160 of children.

01:39:37.420 Erika, by the way,

01:39:38.100 another wonderful speaker

01:39:39.260 at the ARC Conference

01:39:40.760 in London,

01:39:41.380 somebody I had dinner with

01:39:42.360 two nights ago

01:39:42.860 with her husband.

01:39:44.020 And we believe

01:39:45.960 that we can push

01:39:46.580 the church

01:39:46.940 a little bit further.

01:39:48.100 We should not have

01:39:48.840 unwanted children, Jordan.

01:39:50.960 We should not bring

01:39:51.900 people into this world

01:39:53.720 that we cannot

01:39:54.200 properly take care of.

01:39:55.780 If that involves

01:39:56.500 some form of birth control,

01:39:58.100 well, so be it.

01:39:59.440 And so we're going

01:40:00.180 to have to have

01:40:00.800 more of a grown-up conversation

01:40:02.220 inspired by the teachings

01:40:04.220 of Jesus,

01:40:05.300 inspired by the teachings

01:40:06.300 of the church

01:40:06.920 that takes into account

01:40:09.440 that we live

01:40:10.120 in this new world

01:40:10.840 of 10 billion people,

01:40:12.700 10 billion people

01:40:13.640 trying to make

01:40:14.600 this little ball

01:40:15.560 of mud and water

01:40:16.560 and a little,

01:40:17.280 little, little sliver

01:40:18.280 of air on top of it

01:40:19.200 work for centuries

01:40:20.960 and centuries to come.

01:40:23.280 Because,

01:40:24.080 like Abraham,

01:40:25.140 we have to care about

01:40:26.200 our great,

01:40:26.920 great,

01:40:27.260 great,

01:40:27.560 great grandchildren.

01:40:28.260 Well, you know,

01:40:30.860 that's a pretty good

01:40:31.500 place to end

01:40:32.200 and it's perfectly timed

01:40:33.680 so I think we'll take

01:40:34.720 that opportunity

01:40:35.320 to do exactly that.

01:40:36.940 I'm going to reiterate

01:40:38.060 for the viewers

01:40:39.440 and listeners

01:40:39.980 the websites

01:40:40.740 that you described.

01:40:41.900 The first one was

01:40:42.680 www.1.6.com

01:40:46.600 with one numeric

01:40:47.860 and six written out.

01:40:49.460 I've got that right,

01:40:50.340 I hope.

01:40:51.400 Point is also written out.

01:40:52.940 One is numeric,

01:40:54.220 point is written out,

01:40:55.240 p-o-i-n-t-s-i-x.com.

01:40:57.980 Okay, okay.

01:40:58.960 And you talked about

01:41:00.400 the solutions forum there.

01:41:01.720 You also mentioned

01:41:03.340 a site in the UK,

01:41:04.880 makeitclick.com,

01:41:06.200 if I got that right.

01:41:07.220 We'll put all this

01:41:07.960 in the description

01:41:08.580 of the video.

01:41:09.320 Yeah, we'll do it

01:41:10.060 in the speaker notes.

01:41:12.060 Yes, absolutely,

01:41:13.000 absolutely.

01:41:13.600 So, well,

01:41:14.680 thank you very much

01:41:15.440 for the discussion today.

01:41:16.940 It cleared up

01:41:17.640 a lot of things for me.

01:41:18.820 I was very particularly

01:41:20.000 curious about your comments

01:41:21.240 about Larry Fink

01:41:22.060 and I'm very glad

01:41:23.700 to hear that he had

01:41:24.520 the largeness of mind,

01:41:26.380 of spirit,

01:41:27.020 let's say,

01:41:27.760 to enthusiastically

01:41:30.980 promote your book

01:41:32.060 despite the fact

01:41:32.920 that you had

01:41:33.300 substantive disagreements

01:41:34.460 with him.

01:41:34.860 I thought you did

01:41:35.400 a remarkable job

01:41:37.540 of being even-handed

01:41:38.900 in your discussion

01:41:39.760 of the ESG movement,

01:41:41.160 pointing out that,

01:41:42.380 you know,

01:41:42.880 it's a mistake

01:41:43.540 to assume that

01:41:44.440 the motivations

01:41:46.200 that gave rise

01:41:47.320 to the movement

01:41:49.000 were all to be treated

01:41:52.100 with cynicism.

01:41:53.180 Exactly, yeah.

01:41:53.900 Well, and I think

01:41:54.580 the same thing

01:41:55.180 is true of the

01:41:55.820 UN Millennium Goals.

01:41:57.200 I mean,

01:41:58.080 we need ambitions

01:41:59.600 and we need to figure out

01:42:00.740 how to implement them

01:42:01.840 without undue

01:42:02.860 top-down control

01:42:04.080 and that's actually

01:42:04.940 a very difficult problem,

01:42:06.980 right?

01:42:07.220 It's something we're

01:42:07.780 wrestling with at ARC.

01:42:08.860 It's like,

01:42:09.220 well,

01:42:09.420 how can we provide

01:42:10.560 leadership

01:42:11.060 without

01:42:11.620 transforming across

01:42:15.340 even a few short years

01:42:16.840 into just another

01:42:17.960 organization

01:42:18.640 that issues

01:42:19.300 top-down

01:42:19.960 moral pronouncements?

01:42:21.580 It's a very difficult

01:42:22.400 thing to get right

01:42:23.200 for any length of time.

01:42:24.300 So, I appreciate all that.

01:42:26.340 I want to thank

01:42:27.260 everybody who's watching

01:42:28.240 and listening

01:42:28.680 for your time and attention.

01:42:30.320 I repeat that

01:42:31.120 after every episode,

01:42:32.220 but it's always true.

01:42:33.180 I'm very thrilled

01:42:34.760 to have the privilege

01:42:36.340 to talk to as many people

01:42:37.580 as I do get to talk to

01:42:38.680 and I'm also heartened

01:42:39.640 by the fact that

01:42:40.640 these podcasts,

01:42:42.340 which are very

01:42:42.780 technically complex,

01:42:43.700 and that I put forward

01:42:47.180 at the highest level

01:42:48.280 of my intellectual ability

01:42:49.480 that they meet

01:42:50.300 with such a receptive audience

01:42:51.560 and that all these people

01:42:53.360 like you, sir,

01:42:54.440 who can bring their wisdom

01:42:55.700 out into the world

01:42:57.140 are being welcomed

01:42:58.320 in their attempts to do so.

01:42:59.620 I think that's

01:43:00.180 absolutely remarkable

01:43:01.200 and another reason

01:43:02.440 for hope

01:43:02.960 in a future

01:43:05.940 that's going to be

01:43:06.660 very challenging

01:43:07.340 but that is rife

01:43:08.280 with an unbelievable

01:43:09.240 amount of opportunities,

01:43:10.580 which is also something

01:43:11.400 that you made clear today.

01:43:12.420 So, and thank you again

01:43:14.040 to the Daily Wire Plus people

01:43:15.380 for making these

01:43:16.120 conversations possible

01:43:17.200 and the film crew here

01:43:18.120 on Vancouver Island

01:43:19.660 where I am with my family.

01:43:21.540 I'm going to continue

01:43:23.200 my discussion

01:43:23.920 with Terry

01:43:25.280 on the Daily Wire Plus platform.

01:43:27.340 I'd like to delve

01:43:28.000 a little bit

01:43:28.440 into his personal background,

01:43:29.880 find out,

01:43:30.300 I want to find out

01:43:31.020 where he came from

01:43:31.860 and why

01:43:32.280 and what motivates him.

01:43:33.460 And so, if you want to join us

01:43:34.660 on the Daily Wire Plus side,

01:43:36.120 that also offers you

01:43:37.240 an opportunity

01:43:37.880 to throw some support

01:43:40.040 the Daily Wire way

01:43:41.240 and I think that's

01:43:42.280 a useful thing to do

01:43:43.200 given what they're attempting

01:43:44.220 to accomplish in the world.

01:43:45.640 There's an organization

01:43:46.620 that's trying to do good

01:43:47.800 and do well

01:43:48.340 at the same time

01:43:49.100 and my experience

01:43:50.140 with them really indicates

01:43:51.280 that that is what

01:43:52.060 they're attempting to do

01:43:53.040 and quite successfully.

01:43:54.220 So, hopefully

01:43:54.940 we'll join some of you there.

01:43:56.960 Thanks again, Mr. Keeley.

01:43:58.140 Much appreciated.

01:43:59.780 It's an honor, Jordan.

01:44:00.920 Genuinely an honor.

01:44:01.760 Thank you so much

01:44:02.300 for having me.

01:44:02.800 Thank you.

01:44:03.800 Thank you.

01:44:12.760 Thank you.

01:44:13.340 Thank you.

410. Discussing Impact Investment and ESG's with a BlackRock Executive ｜ Terrence Keeley

Summary

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