The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

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00:00:57.420 Hello everybody. I have the privilege of speaking today with actor Lawrence Fox.

00:01:14.720 We start by talking about his recent legal trouble in the UK.

00:01:20.840 Lawrence was arrested recently because of his stated support for the activists in the UK who are interfering with the imposition of the closed-circuit television cameras

00:01:42.680 designed to monitor everyone's movement under the purported guise of anti-pollution and saving the planet.

00:01:54.180 There's a lot of CCTV cameras in England monitoring people to a much greater degree than I think is justifiable in a free society,

00:02:04.420 and Lawrence took a stance against that and has paid a legal price for doing so.

00:02:09.120 He's also suffered substantial disruption of his acting career as a consequence of his political stance,

00:02:17.760 which has been pilloried by people on the left as fascist, as anything that's liberal or even moderately conservative or even liberal tends to be these days.

00:02:30.580 And so we talk about, well, we talk about his legal trouble, we talk about his ability to act out dark characters and what that means psychologically and practically,

00:02:41.140 talk about the relationship between freedom of speech and the propagation of truth through psyche and society,

00:02:48.900 pointing in no small part to the fact that there's a real valuable freedom that comes along with just saying what you think,

00:02:59.420 you know, carefully and clearly.

00:03:01.900 The cost of that, especially in ideologically addled times, can be the savaging of reputation and the price you might pay

00:03:11.580 in terms of career development, but the advantage is the freedom of conscience and the ability to live in truth that comes along with actually saying what you believe to be true.

00:03:25.620 So, we're going to wander through all that territory.

00:03:28.640 Welcome aboard.

00:03:29.280 Welcome aboard.

00:03:59.280 Welcome aboard.

00:04:29.280 Welcome aboard.

00:04:59.260 seems to be the establishment of these ultra low emissions zones, which are there as far as I'm

00:05:04.660 concerned, not in the least to help the goddamn planet, but to stop people from, what would you

00:05:11.620 say? To stop, to discourage people in the patterns of consumption that the progressives regard as

00:05:19.400 planet demolishing. And now I know there's been a big protest emerge in London in particular with

00:05:27.200 regards to the cameras that the power mongering globalist utopians have decided to employ every

00:05:33.600 which way to keep an eye on every bloody thing that everyone does. And that these Blade Runner

00:05:38.920 types, so-called Blade Runner types, have been demolishing these cameras. And you have tweeted

00:05:44.800 out your support for that. And I've retweeted that and indicated my support as well in a relatively

00:05:50.460 tongue-in-cheek manner, but still directly. You got arrested. I went to the UK a month ago. They left

00:05:56.900 me alone, which, you know, I suppose doesn't surprise me in some ways, but also indicates the

00:06:01.820 arbitrary, what would you call, the arbitrary enforcement of these absolutely preposterous

00:06:09.940 laws. So do you want to fill people in to the degree that you can, given your bail conditions,

00:06:14.760 about exactly what's been going on with you and what your view of this is?

00:06:19.060 Sure. So these, I'm not allowed to say the word that you just said, but I can say that

00:06:27.620 Blade Runner is my favorite film. But I'm not allowed to say the plural of that word. And

00:06:33.020 I'm not allowed to say the name of these devices that are used to surveil Londoners.

00:06:39.480 You can admit to the existence of the plural, I presume.

00:06:43.440 I can admit to the existence of the plural, but who knows? The door's not too far away.

00:06:47.240 They might be barging at any time. This is a scheme dreamed up, as you said, by the progressive

00:06:55.840 planet haters who want to drag us all back into the Stone Age. And the thing that bothered

00:07:01.120 me most about it, and probably one of the only reasons I got involved in politics in the first

00:07:06.560 place, was because it was a scheme designed to damage the poorest in society the most. So

00:07:13.940 I don't know if you have this expression in Canada, but the expression in London is the

00:07:17.560 white van man. He's the guy that gets out in his white van every day, and he drives into

00:07:22.520 London, he does whatever he does, plumbing, electrician, anything like that. He is driving

00:07:27.520 a diesel van, and Sadiq Khan and his gang of globalist scumbags have decided that any diesel

00:07:35.360 vehicle made after 2015 or 2016, I can't remember the exact year, is now liable for a £12.50 a day

00:07:42.700 surcharge. Now, and this is in direct conflict with the fact that if you buy an electric vehicle

00:07:50.480 with your corporation tax in the United Kingdom as a well-off person, you can claim back 100% of

00:07:56.460 the cost of that electric vehicle in the first year of your tax year. So essentially what he's

00:08:04.660 doing is he's deliberately making the poorest people poorer, and those with the least voice

00:08:10.220 quietest. And I took great exception to this. No one voted for this. He suppressed his own report

00:08:17.920 saying that this would have a negligible effect on the pollution in London, and he had that report

00:08:25.220 suppressed. So to me, it was criminal behavior and its extortion, and it's all the things that you

00:08:31.620 associate with criminals, as far as I'm concerned. So I supported in the spirit of, you know, American

00:08:37.800 Westerns, the idea of people taking their town back. And for doing so, for tweeting my support of it

00:08:44.500 relentlessly, and then for saying that I'd like to join them, because, well, I also can't admit

00:08:51.160 whether I know them or not. But Sadiq sent six of his finest coppers to come and arrest me two and

00:09:02.160 a half months ago. And the thing that was so profoundly moving about that experience was,

00:09:09.700 on the car journey, on the way back with the six coppers, there was a report of a suicide and a

00:09:16.180 stabbing. And both of the times, the officers in the car said, we're busy dealing with other matters.

00:09:23.980 So I just, you know, London has been completely hijacked by this, this mankind-hating, regressive

00:09:32.100 nihilist. So let me, I'm going to play devil's advocate here a fair bit. These are questions I

00:09:39.400 torture myself with. So I'm going to make a case for Sadiq Khan's, Khan's, his actions. So the first

00:09:48.340 case would be, well, London is overcrowded and there is expense associated with the, the traffic

00:09:58.340 congestion, right? The time that people spend because traffic is congested. And you could imagine

00:10:03.100 a scheme whereby there was a fee implemented to dissuade unnecessary, now this is where it gets

00:10:11.880 tricky because who decides what's unnecessary, but to dissuade, let's say, delayable transportation

00:10:18.980 into London, right? Because it would keep the roads in principle, it might keep the roads more free. And

00:10:26.100 that would actually, if people could move around more quickly, there would be some economic advantage

00:10:31.460 to that. So what do you think, do you think there's any, that any credit whatsoever should

00:10:36.960 be given to an argument like that? I mean, so it could, because Khan could say, well, we're just,

00:10:42.500 we're just trying to control traffic and it is too congested. Now, I know he's made these cases that,

00:10:48.560 you know, London air is still polluted. And I find that pretty appalling because if you look at the

00:10:54.160 historical record of particulates and, and dangerous gases in London air, the improvement in air

00:11:00.360 quality, especially over the last, what, five decades has been absolutely precipitous. And it's,

00:11:05.960 it's actually a miracle of modern technology that London air is as clean as it is. And you can say

00:11:11.220 that for most cities, even places like LA, which like London were famous for their pollution. So that

00:11:16.880 just strikes me as preposterous. But can you see any justification whatsoever for attempting to

00:11:23.020 implement control over congestion in London? Well, we, we already previously had control over

00:11:31.040 congestion in London, which was called the congestion charge, which everybody has to pay

00:11:35.160 anyway, if you drive a vehicle in or out of London, albeit not an electric vehicle. So, and you're right

00:11:40.760 to say that pollution has come down drastically in London. All meter readings, pollution meter reading,

00:11:46.880 particularly at meetings, carbon readings are very, very either low or moderate in London. So there's

00:11:54.560 no justification to add this extra tax, other than to fill up his emptying coffers. Now, there is a,

00:12:03.180 there's a broader argument to be had about how much we want the planet to be a cleaner and better

00:12:08.000 place. I think you'd, you'd find it hard push to find someone who go, no, I just want the planet to be

00:12:12.440 much more dirty. But we've seen, we've seen with, um, also, sorry, just to interrupt about the

00:12:19.480 congestion thing. The, um, 50% of London social housing is occupied by illegal immigrants. So

00:12:26.360 there is a, or, or immigrants seeking asylum, asylum. So we're, London is already bursting to

00:12:32.820 overflowing. So these, these traffic calming measures, if they calmed traffic, great, but they

00:12:38.880 don't calm traffic. It's an ideological mission to, because he cannot force you out of your car,

00:12:45.360 because there would be uproar. What he's going to do is he's going to tax you out of your car.

00:12:49.540 So he, because people will not listen to this idea that they want to be free to drive to the beach,

00:12:55.760 you know, England is small. You can get to the beach in 45 minutes from London. If you want to,

00:13:00.260 he wants you out of your car and into these electric cars, which in their own way are digital

00:13:06.380 prisons on their own. Because if you speak to a, if you speak to a, uh, electric car owner, you know,

00:13:13.340 some of the Uber drivers or, or some of the other cab companies in London, they say that they cannot,

00:13:18.560 the minute they get out of London, their battery is gone. So they are, they're hemmed in by this

00:13:23.820 digital prison of their own car. Whereas, you know, you can buy a Tesla and go quite a long way,

00:13:28.780 but you buy a sort of mid-market Kia and you're not going anywhere. So, uh, you know, I, I, I fully

00:13:34.980 support, uh, Sadiq Khan, um, trying to clean up London, but I wish he would do it with evidence

00:13:40.180 instead of made up figures. He's making up these figures of 4,000 people are going to die

00:13:44.720 from asthma. And it's just a lie. And I, I, I struggle with people that lie openly. So he lies

00:13:54.120 about, he, he's just been, uh, reported the other day for knife crime. He said knife crime is down in

00:13:59.600 my tenure. It's not, it's up 40%. But he feels that he can tell London that knife crime is not

00:14:05.620 a problem. And it's like, it really is. And in the same way, pollution is the same issue. London

00:14:10.180 is a much cleaner, a more wonderful city than it ever was. Yeah. Well, I, I, I grew, when I grew up,

00:14:18.680 cars were still synonymous with freedom. And I think in North America, especially where I grew up,

00:14:23.620 I, cause I grew up in this little town, way the hell out on the edge of the prairie, the biggest,

00:14:28.300 the nearest real city was 40, 400 miles away. And so I lived in my damn car from the time I was

00:14:36.380 really 16 onward, especially in my late teens and early twenties. I mean, car was synonymous with

00:14:43.480 freedom. And, you know, I've thought for a long time that one of the most effective acts of subversion

00:14:51.180 the free West ever managed in relationship to the communist countries was to invent the automobile

00:14:57.440 because the automobile is the, is really the material embodiment of the ethos of individual

00:15:04.480 freedom. You can jump in your car. Nobody knows where the hell you are. They can't keep track of

00:15:11.320 you, although that's starting to change and you can go wherever you want without asking. That's a big

00:15:17.140 deal. And then when I, so when I started to see, you know, hypothetical utopians go after automobiles,

00:15:23.720 I thought, man, if you hate cars, I'm probably your enemy cars and comedians, right? If you,

00:15:30.240 if you hate cars and you don't like comedians, there's something seriously wrong with you.

00:15:35.080 And this, I started to see the war on cars in Toronto about 15 years ago. Like it just got more

00:15:41.500 and more difficult to travel by car, more bloody bike lanes, which is insane in a city like Toronto,

00:15:47.440 where it's frigid, bloody cold for six months a year. You know, the only people who bike from

00:15:53.460 November to March are deluded 24 year old men who think they're saving the planet with their goddamn

00:16:01.080 bicycles. And the notion that, you know, that's going to be a reasonable mode of transportation for

00:16:07.000 like a 70 year old woman with her groceries is just utterly preposterous. It just got more and more

00:16:12.820 difficult. And I used to annoy my family looking around saying, you know, I think there's a war on

00:16:18.280 cars going on here. I can't figure it out. And, you know, it wasn't until recent years that I came

00:16:22.780 across the bloody C40 documents, which read like the worst right wing conspiracists nightmare. Like

00:16:31.080 you can't even believe that it's true.

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00:18:13.020 What in the world? What in the world do you think is going on at a deeper level here? And like,

00:18:19.720 because obviously you're deeply enough concerned about this to have put your, well, you put your

00:18:24.040 whole career on the line, which is something else that I want to talk about. But okay, so you went

00:18:29.580 out and you evinced explicit support for the actions of people who were taking down the ultra-low

00:18:38.760 emission zone cameras, and that got you arrested. And so what are you charged with exactly? And why

00:18:46.180 did you feel that this was an issue that was of sufficient import to put you and your family

00:18:53.700 at real economic and legal risk?

00:18:57.520 So, yeah, to answer your first question, they're considering to charge me for conspiracy to commit

00:19:05.260 criminal damage and support of criminal damage of some kind. I think in the process becomes the

00:19:13.820 punishment thing, we'll see where they end up. I think there's scant evidence for that. The reason

00:19:19.140 why I did it is the reason why I do everything, which is progressives hate mankind. They hate

00:19:27.500 mankind with a visceral hatred. And I don't. And therefore, I feel that it's important to stand

00:19:37.140 up and say, you know, you expressed it very well when you were talking about the car. It's like,

00:19:41.700 I want to be able to take my kids and my dogs to the river. And I want to throw a ball for my dog in

00:19:46.960 the river. And while my kids to jump in the river, and I want risk and danger. And I want all of these

00:19:51.160 things to happen in our lives. And I don't want my life to be like a battery hen in a house,

00:19:58.440 asking permission for people to do something which is my God-given right to do. And it's the

00:20:08.240 Sadiq Khan. I mean, hate is really, I've been really struggling with this as a concept. Hate is a really

00:20:14.680 difficult. We mustn't hate people. But if I was to hate Sadiq Khan and what he stands for is

00:20:21.140 something so close to what that feeling must be. He's just, it's just dreadful to try and control

00:20:28.840 and out of your own weakness and nihilism and hatred of life and meaning, hatred of it all,

00:20:36.340 to go, the only way I can get any meaning out of my life is to control yours. And I just go,

00:20:41.380 well, I will put every tool down in that war. And I will fight you face to face over that.

00:20:48.700 Let me play devil's advocate on that front too. Because the, see, I've been struck in recent years

00:20:55.520 by the fact that, you know, the progressives had two broad domains of metaphysical concern.

00:21:03.020 One was allying themselves with the hypothetically oppressed, including the economically oppressed,

00:21:09.120 and the other was saving the planet. And so I was very curious about what would happen when those

00:21:15.680 two concerns went head to head, right? And so what I've seen happen, clearly, is that the progressive

00:21:22.480 types, despite the fact that the grounding of their progressivism is essentially, in principle,

00:21:30.140 the support of the oppressed and the poor, is that they will sacrifice the poor to the hypothetical

00:21:35.960 concerns of the planet happily and in a heartbeat. Because every time I've seen the Greens, for

00:21:41.700 example, make a move on the energy front, this is particularly evident in Germany and in the UK,

00:21:47.500 where energy prices just keep skyrocketing out of control, and the sources of power are more and

00:21:53.940 more unreliable and more and more dependent on dictatorial sources for that, that if it comes to

00:21:59.680 screwing the poor with higher energy costs, which is about the most effective way you can screw them,

00:22:04.920 and foregoing saving the planet momentarily, they'll screw over the poor in a deadly fashion,

00:22:12.400 in no time flat. And it really is deadly. You know, Bjorn Lomberg has shown statistics,

00:22:16.460 for example, that show that these measures that purport to reduce energy consumption by decreasing

00:22:23.540 thermostat maximum, which is law, for example, you have to do that at the bloody European Commission

00:22:29.780 in Brussels, by the way, you know, that even a three degree decrease in thermostat setting in the winter

00:22:35.000 will cause several hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths of elderly people, because

00:22:39.940 they're so susceptible to temperature fluctuation, right? Because, and so, but the progressives are

00:22:45.700 going to say to you something like, well, look, Lawrence, you might want to have your fun and games

00:22:51.240 right now and take your flights and have all your clothes and all your privilege and your so-called

00:22:56.200 freedom, which is actually just a marker of your willingness and ability to exploit other people.

00:23:00.940 But I'm much more concerned with the situation 50 years down the road, and you trumpet your,

00:23:07.180 what would you say, your concern for the poor and oppressed at the moment. But I'm trying to stave off,

00:23:13.420 you know, global disaster. And if we have to break a few eggs to make that omelet, it's well worth the

00:23:19.520 sacrifice. And so that's the, that's the perennial argument, right? Is that the future well-being of

00:23:25.940 the hypothesis. So, because the argument you see is, well, when, when the tidal waves of climate change

00:23:32.280 come visiting, it'll be the, particularly the poor who suffer most intensely. And so we have to make

00:23:38.820 sacrifices now. We have to make sacrifices now to forestall that. What do you, I mean, you can

00:23:45.520 understand that that's a, in principle, a credible argument if you buy the climate change narrative.

00:23:51.800 What do you think of that argument? And how have you dealt with it personally?

00:23:56.140 Well, I would say that the reason why they don't, why the climate argument and the socioeconomic

00:24:04.320 argument, climate one, was because socioeconomically we're very fluid. Capitalism, with all its weaknesses,

00:24:11.740 is quite a fluid system. My brother-in-law went from a council house in Ipswich to being a really,

00:24:18.220 really wealthy film director. So, you know, this, this stuff happens in Britain and it happens all

00:24:24.880 across the West. So they, they, they sort of left that alone. And then in response to the second

00:24:29.140 question, I would say, give me a single climate prediction that these people have ever come out

00:24:34.800 with, which wasn't debunked within five years. And, and again, I don't, every, we've got to assume

00:24:43.320 the good faith in people. And we want a good, we want a healthy planet. We want a cleaner future for

00:24:49.560 our children. We already have one. And it would seem to me that the best way of making the world

00:24:53.480 a cleaner place is to make people richer. You know, because I've sat, I've sat on boats in the South

00:24:59.520 China Sea driving between islands and watch people finish their polystyrene things that you used to

00:25:04.300 get a McDonald's in the eighties and just throw them overboard. And that's how they dealt with it.

00:25:09.080 And I think it was because they were too busy doing something else. But if these people were

00:25:13.060 wealthier, the A, they'd be, you know, you've, you've spoken about this before using better fuel

00:25:17.240 and B, you know, wealth is the, is the greatest thing you can give someone to give them an opportunity

00:25:22.520 to be responsible for the planet that they're going to pass on to their children.

00:25:25.360 Right. Okay. So, so your argument, and I believe this to be the credible argument is that

00:25:31.920 if you were genuinely concerned with the poor and the planet, rather than merely hating the military,

00:25:40.520 industrial, capitalist complex, and humanity in general, you would take a stark look at the facts.

00:25:47.060 You would understand that transitioning our economies from wood and dung through coal,

00:25:55.360 fossil fuel to nuclear is an appropriate transition and one that's time tested. It would

00:26:01.480 lift the bottom billion or 2 billion people out of the abject poverty that they still dwell in.

00:26:07.040 And it would simultaneously be of benefit to the planet. And you'd also, I think, ally that with a

00:26:12.920 view that we should pull out all the stops on the nuclear front because nuclear energy is

00:26:18.440 unbelievably dense. We're much better at producing the reactors if we could get rid of the red tape than

00:26:23.680 we were 50 years ago. And so the other thing that makes me so skeptical of the, we love the poor and

00:26:29.340 the planet utopian narrative is that the greens almost inevitably object to nuclear energy. And

00:26:35.000 that's just a bloody miracle, isn't it? Because if it's carbon, that is the catastrophe. And that

00:26:40.020 catastrophe is so impending that it justifies the suspension of everyone's civil rights and the

00:26:46.060 imposition of a lower standard of living on, on the poor, which is going to knock a lot of them into

00:26:50.560 abject poverty, then how, how the hell can you not make a case for nuclear? Like if it's an emergency,

00:26:57.000 even if nuclear is a risk, and I don't really think it is, at least compared to other risks,

00:27:01.940 then obviously in an environment where all measures whatsoever are justified, an emergency transition

00:27:09.500 to nuclear rather than to unreliable, unreliable so-called renewables, which aren't renewable at all,

00:27:16.140 that would be in the cards. And so, you know, the fact that that isn't happening, it's one of those

00:27:21.060 places where you see the internal contradictions of the ideology make itself manifest. It's like,

00:27:27.020 well, you know, I worked for the UN years ago on the first really sustainable development document.

00:27:36.520 And I'm morally pulled as a consequence of that. I would say in my defense that the document the UN

00:27:48.760 would have produced had the team I was involved with, wasn't my team, it was Jim Bosley's team,

00:27:54.000 he used to run RIM. If we hadn't rewritten that document, it would be a hell of a lot more socialist

00:28:01.180 and humanity-hating than it ended up being. So, I don't know, if you serve a lesser evil,

00:28:09.340 if you serve to transform an evil into a lesser evil, does that mean that what you did was good?

00:28:14.220 You know, you could argue about that. But what I really came to understand when I worked on that

00:28:19.400 panel was that all the evidence suggested exactly what you said, which is that if you got people

00:28:26.000 above about $5,000 a year in average GDP, they immediately started to take a long-term view of

00:28:32.240 the environment. And so, it seems like the fastest way to a green planet is through wealth. But we

00:28:38.440 have this anti-human narrative that's been thrust upon us as an alternative, which is that, well,

00:28:44.500 really, the carrying capacity of the planet is only about 500 million people. And those people would

00:28:50.920 have to live at a pre-industrial, you know, standard of living. I don't know if they're supposed to all

00:28:55.760 be bloody hippies out on some, you know, island utopia farming their goddamn goats and their chickens,

00:29:02.720 you know, which is a dreadful way to live. And I've watched hippies try to do that with, you know,

00:29:07.960 catastrophic consequences because hand-to-mouth is no damn fun. And it also begs the question,

00:29:13.300 what are you going to do with the extra seven and a half billion people? And that's where I see,

00:29:18.520 like, the real danger of this sort of utopian scheme. I can't understand how you can make the

00:29:24.720 claim that the planet has too many people on it without simultaneously selling your soul to Satan.

00:29:32.320 You know, and I mean that, you know, I mean that almost literally. It's like, that's such an awful

00:29:38.640 claim. There's too many people. Okay, buddy, which people? Exactly.

00:29:44.760 I call it German beach towel syndrome. So when you're in a hotel and you check into the hotel

00:29:54.880 and you're trying to go down to the pool and someone has woken up, usually a German. In England,

00:30:00.040 we mock the Germans for doing this. And they've taken all of the beach chairs. And it's like,

00:30:06.400 we need them for us. And then they don't even turn up during the day. I think it's an uninterrupted

00:30:11.040 view between your paradise and the sea. And any plebs, any people who get in the way of your

00:30:18.100 uninterrupted view, which you deserve, because you think correctly, you see that there's a problem

00:30:23.860 and you're willing to do something about it, is seen in some way as noble. And in my view,

00:30:31.320 that is anti-human. And also, I grew up in a Christian family. I've been imbued with a lot of

00:30:39.520 things from Christianity, which I just can't get out of my head. And one of them is that we're all

00:30:47.080 made equal in the eyes of God. Therefore, I feel like that's a really good place to start

00:30:53.640 any conversation. So it helps with any conversation to do with poverty, with race, with any other

00:30:59.460 issue to go, look, we're equal, but we have different opportunities. And this idea that, you know,

00:31:04.700 the hypocrites who fly their jets around the world telling us that we mustn't eat meat anymore,

00:31:10.900 or Sadiq Khan, who gets his 300,000-pound armor-plated Range Rover to drive him three

00:31:18.680 miles to walk his dog with his wife with his security detail. But we can't get in a car and

00:31:24.960 take our kids to the beach and have a fire and cook some sausages. You have to pick a side at that

00:31:30.300 point. You just have to go, I picked my side. Yeah, well, you pick a side one way or another,

00:31:35.260 man. And everybody's going to find that out in the next five to 10 years. Okay, so let me push you

00:31:40.480 on something else, too. So when I was retweeting your tweets, supporting the, or indicating

00:31:50.180 admiration, let's say, for the actions of people who were cutting down the spy cameras. See, I was

00:32:00.620 shocked when I went to London 15 years ago about how many of those bloody CTTV cameras there were

00:32:05.700 everywhere. And I thought, this is not good because the UK is the home of democratic freedom,

00:32:11.740 fundamentally, as far as I'm concerned. Like, it's the epicenter. And the fact that you guys put those

00:32:16.300 bloody cameras everywhere, it's just, you know, it's just in the name of safety. Safety. Except

00:32:21.640 that you're being watched by, like, authoritarian cameras all the time, which doesn't strike me as

00:32:27.660 safe. And then that's just multiplied and multiplied. You know, in China now, there's 700 million

00:32:33.260 cameras. They just watch everyone all the time. They do gate recognition. So even if your face is

00:32:39.740 covered, they can recognize you're tracked 100% of the time. And that's certainly a potential future

00:32:45.320 that we could have. That those, that idea was extended, too, into this insistence that your car

00:32:54.220 is so dangerous that we have to track you wherever you go in case you're, like, outputting some iota of

00:32:59.680 carbon or particulate. So, but there's a contradiction here if you're conservative in your, or even

00:33:08.340 libertarian conservative, particularly in your political inclinations. It's like, I do have some

00:33:13.900 unease in expressing my support for direct civil unrest, right? I mean, cutting down cameras is not

00:33:23.700 nothing. It's, it's, it is technically a criminal act. How do you reconcile the fact that you're calling

00:33:33.220 for that you're supporting the, the actions that vigilante types are taking to push back against

00:33:43.880 con with the conservative insistence that by and large, it's a citizen's responsibility to uphold

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00:35:04.240 Well, I think I apply sort of a very simple rule, which is the rule of fly tipping, which is you're

00:35:12.320 not allowed to fly tip. If you go and offload a van full of waste and, you know, washing machines

00:35:19.700 and freezes on the side of the motorway, you're prosecuted for it. That's what you do. So no one

00:35:24.860 voted. So we have these low traffic neighborhoods as well, where they stick a big plant pot in the

00:35:30.000 middle of the road, and you can't drive through. People can't get into hospitals. People can't do

00:35:33.880 anything. So I see this as digital fly tipping. It wasn't there yesterday. The world was the same

00:35:39.720 world. It is there today. The world is now a less free world, and no one has benefited as a result of

00:35:45.380 it. So I see it less as looking at the law. I see it as removing unwanted digital waste from your

00:35:53.540 community. And we're always encouraged to, you know, look out for each other and protect your

00:35:57.700 neighbor and all of this sort of stuff. So I see it as that. And I think a large proportion of

00:36:01.880 Londoners also do see it as that, as we see with the, I mean, I can't encourage their work anymore

00:36:08.400 because my free speech has been controlled by the Metropolitan Police. But, you know, I see it as a

00:36:13.580 civic duty when a moral wrong is committed. It is your civic duty to do anything and everything in

00:36:20.500 your power to do it, to undo it. Okay, okay. So let's imagine for a moment that I'm one of these

00:36:25.900 just-stop-oil characters. And I believe that the planet is in existential trouble because of climate

00:36:35.360 change. That's going to run away. And because of that, I also take to myself the right to

00:36:42.120 break laws, to impede traffic flow, to glue myself to a spectacular painting. I mean, how do

00:36:52.040 you, how do you, I wouldn't say convince yourself. You see what I mean is that there's this danger in

00:37:00.840 people taking matters into their own hands, right? It's the danger of social unrest versus the danger

00:37:07.400 of hyper-obedience, right? And, but the just-stop-oil protester types, the people who are going too far

00:37:14.260 on the globalist utopian side, seem to be using similar communitarian arguments. Now, you know, I don't,

00:37:21.560 I think that the fact that the just-stop-oil protesters interfere with traffic flow is inexcusable,

00:37:28.220 fundamentally. And I don't buy their argument, but it's complicated for me to think through precisely.

00:37:34.200 I mean, you have to go all the way down to first principles to some degree. You know,

00:37:37.840 you mentioned in your previous remarks, your proposition that, you know, each person is made

00:37:44.400 in the image of God. And that's getting pretty close down to first principles. I mean, I don't

00:37:50.960 know. Well, you, sorry, I'm wandering around in this question, but you get the point, is that

00:37:55.460 what is being done by the people who are cutting down the cameras is analogous with a different set of

00:38:01.940 metaphysical propositions to what is being done by the just-stop-oil protesters. And so,

00:38:06.660 it isn't exactly obvious to me how to draw the proper moral distinction.

00:38:11.400 Well, I think it is possible to draw a moral distinction over stopping traffic flow,

00:38:17.640 because obstructing the King's Highway has been illegal since forever. So, stopping people going

00:38:25.980 to and from work and preventing ambulances, getting to and from hospital, that is clearly

00:38:30.560 an egregiously wrong thing to do. Taking an angle grinder to a lamppost that was not previously

00:38:40.660 there. I see what you're saying, which is like, at what point does a citizenry take the law into

00:38:46.000 their own hands? It's really difficult. It is really difficult. I would, for example,

00:38:52.840 I think the more the just-stop-oil people throw orange paint on masterpieces, the better. Because

00:38:59.760 the more people will just go, yuck. And they don't have any public support for doing so.

00:39:06.280 And I think that the public support, the overwhelming public support for what's... Even

00:39:10.500 we've had Ian Duncan-Smith, who is a former leader of the Conservative Party, has expressed his,

00:39:15.220 if not support, but his understanding as to why these people are doing what they're doing.

00:39:21.180 Okay. So, one of the things you're referring to is the fact that that's an argument that's

00:39:27.680 essentially grounded in appreciation of the sovereignty of the people. Is that if you,

00:39:34.540 you know, I think I read at one point, this might be wrong, but it's a good illustration of the

00:39:38.340 principle. I think it was the Netherlands that had a custom or legislation that if 75% of

00:39:45.200 Netherlands citizens broke a given law, you had to get rid of the law, right? So, there is got to be

00:39:53.580 some idea that the law, although it has to shape people and inhibit them to some degree, it should

00:39:59.980 sit on a basis of mutual consent. And that brings us to another issue, too. I've been thinking this

00:40:06.380 through, especially with regard to what happened during the COVID lockdown. You know,

00:40:11.360 and if there's an emergency, you can understand that, you can understand the argument that some

00:40:18.400 civil liberties might have to be lifted to deal with the emergency. You can understand that argument

00:40:24.500 in principle. But my sense is that if someone is calling for an emergency, claiming an emergency,

00:40:32.700 and simultaneously pointing to the fact that civil liberties are to be suspended in consequence,

00:40:39.400 the first conclusion you should draw from that is that they're probably wolves in sheep's clothing,

00:40:46.780 they're probably tyrants, and that the argument is actually the reverse. They want to impose control,

00:40:52.360 and so they're generating an emergency. And we should demand, what do they say, radical claims require

00:40:58.820 overwhelming evidence. It's something like that. And so, our general sense as citizens should be,

00:41:05.780 if your bloody emergency, if you're calling for an emergency that grants you additional power,

00:41:13.820 you would have to prove every which way that you're not just a tyrant who's lying. That should be the

00:41:20.560 default rule of thumb. And so, the same thing seems to me to apply with these CCTVs and this widespread

00:41:30.980 surveillance. It's like you claim to be acting as a consequence of being motivated by the highest

00:41:38.360 possible virtue. If it's not God, it's your version of compassion, which is the modern God. But the fact

00:41:45.860 that you're accruing all the power as a consequence seems like a coincidence that's cutting a bit too close

00:41:54.420 to the bone to ignore. And this seems to be happening. Yep. I think that first and foremost,

00:42:01.880 there's got to be a free speech element to this. So, you've got to be able to criticize something,

00:42:07.240 be it lockdowns, be it Sadiq Khan's ridiculous climate scam schemes or anything. So, we have to put

00:42:14.500 free speech to the primacy of the center of any single argument. The second thing that one's got to look at

00:42:21.800 is if we are banned from discussing an issue at all, it needs discussing. So, for example,

00:42:29.400 the so-called climate emergency. If we're told there is a climate emergency, it's not up for

00:42:34.380 discussion, there is a deadly virus, it's not up for discussion, this is the only treatment. If you're

00:42:39.780 banned from doing that, you need to talk about it. And the third thing is, if you're trying to make the

00:42:46.140 world a better place and a cleaner and happier and more, you know, fuel-efficient place, and you want

00:42:52.740 to build 15-minute cities where I can walk to my barber, I can walk to my supermarket, then build me

00:42:59.020 the infrastructure before you build me the controlling mechanisms to which you're going to shut down my

00:43:03.760 life. Yeah, well, that's a really good point. You know, like, when this 15-minute city thing came up,

00:43:10.660 you know, it was so interesting to watch it morph because I looked at the plans of the new urban

00:43:16.420 planners, let's say, 15 years ago. And in North America in particular, our cities are blighted by

00:43:23.040 the spread of these McMansion suburbs, or even just middle-class suburbs, that really have no

00:43:29.100 community center, right? There's no shopping malls, there's no bars, there's no churches, there's no

00:43:33.820 downtown. There's just an endless sprawl of identical houses. And there's something soul-deadening about

00:43:40.180 them. They're not constructed in a manner that makes for human flourishing, because there's no

00:43:46.300 social element to the community. They're just boxes with individuals in them, right? And inside the box,

00:43:52.980 there are other boxes where everyone's with their camera or with their phone in their own atomized

00:43:59.400 environment. And so when the new urbanists started to talk about, you know, building localized centers

00:44:05.740 where things were within walkable distance, and there were the sorts of things that you might

00:44:11.360 want to walk to, like a community center and a church and a pub and a theater, I thought, well,

00:44:16.600 that makes perfect sense. You shouldn't have to hop in your car every time you want to, you know,

00:44:21.040 grab a loaf of bread. But then it was so interesting to watch that the seed of a good idea be immediately,

00:44:28.160 what would you say, gripped onto by the moralizing utopists who immediately conjured up a way to make

00:44:37.520 the 15-minute cities into something like digital prisons. I mean, it was quite a miracle to watch

00:44:43.580 that transformation occur. And you pointed to something of cardinal importance. It's like, look,

00:44:50.840 and I think this is where the free marketers have it over the centralizers as well. It's like,

00:44:54.860 if you want to build people a 15-minute city that's unbelievably inviting so that people

00:45:00.300 flock there and voluntarily leave their automobiles at home because they can walk wherever they want,

00:45:07.740 and that's easier, then have at her. And if you make a fortune doing it, you know, two thumbs up for

00:45:13.200 you. But if you start with the force and the compulsion and the deprivation of civil liberties,

00:45:19.520 we should suspect immediately that you're not just going to start there. That's going to be the

00:45:25.040 whole bloody thing. And that whatever you're offering is just, well, it's just, it's a false

00:45:30.100 reward for accepting these, this imposition of force. Same thing. And so maybe this is a good rule of

00:45:38.540 thumb for people to abide by, which is that we're trying to do this with this ARC enterprise that just

00:45:44.900 had its conference in London, the Alliance for Responsible Citizenship. We have a rule of thumb.

00:45:49.920 All policy based on force is at least suboptimal, if not outright wrong. If I can't do something in a

00:45:59.300 manner that invites you voluntarily, then I'm wrong. I want to tell you a little story about that.

00:46:05.420 You tell me what you think about this. We were talking about the Christianity of your youth. I just did a

00:46:10.420 seminar on Exodus with a group of scholars, and we released that on the Daily Wire platform and on

00:46:16.940 YouTube, and that was quite successful. There's a real cool part of that story. So it has to do with

00:46:23.980 Moses. So Moses is the archetypal figure who fights tyranny and redeems the slave. And so you could imagine

00:46:31.520 that insofar as you're a fully functioning social being who's moral, that's what you do. You oppose

00:46:37.960 tyranny and you grant responsibility and dignity and direction to the slaves. Okay, so that's what

00:46:45.580 Moses does. And he does this for like four decades, right? Forty years in the desert. He puts his life

00:46:50.920 on the line. He sacrifices his whole life to this enterprise, standing up against the Pharaoh, which

00:46:56.620 was a deadly thing to do, and then leading his people through their confusion in the desert. So they

00:47:02.480 drop their tyranny and then they're confused for 40 years. Now, just as he reaches the promise

00:47:07.960 land, and so the archetypal structure here is everybody's journeying to the place they want

00:47:12.660 to go to, right? And no matter what you're doing, you're always trying to journey to the place you

00:47:17.400 want to go to. That's the promised land. So Moses has done this assiduously for four decades. Now,

00:47:23.980 he's right on the threshold of the promised land, and the Israelites are all bitching and whining and

00:47:29.820 squawking away because they're out of water again. And so Moses goes to God and he says,

00:47:35.360 well, you know, we need some water. And God says, well, you're going to find some rocks.

00:47:40.180 And he tells him where. And he says, go speak to the rocks and they'll issue forth water.

00:47:44.620 And Moses goes, but instead of speaking to the rocks, he hits them with his staff. And his staff

00:47:51.440 is a symbol of authority and tradition, right? So he strikes the rock and then he strikes it again.

00:47:56.960 And the water does come forth from the rock. But God tells him that because he used force

00:48:02.420 instead of words that he will die before he enters the promised land.

00:48:07.520 It's such a striking, yeah, right. It's such a striking story because you have this person who's

00:48:12.440 as close to a savior as anyone in the Old Testament, right? I mean, Moses, he's, I think he's the central

00:48:19.480 figure of the Old Testament. You know, you could argue about that, but he's certainly a central figure.

00:48:24.020 And so he does things about as well as you could hope anyone could do. And yet the punishment for

00:48:30.700 him for using force, even in that relatively trivial manner, is that he can't make the utopia

00:48:40.120 make itself manifest, right? That's how dangerous force is. And so maybe we could use as a rule of

00:48:46.580 thumb, the idea that anybody who's trying to push you to do anything, if they're actually trying to

00:48:53.640 push you, they're not to be trusted. If they can't formulate their doctrine as an invitation,

00:49:00.320 a voluntary invitation, at minimum, they're incompetent and probably they're psychopathic and

00:49:05.940 tyrannical. Yeah, I mean, I think you touch on possibly the most important question of this

00:49:15.120 fluctuating time that we live in, which is what comes next? Does, do the, do the so-called or the

00:49:25.720 self-appointed right-thinking men bash their staffs on the head of the radical, woke ideologues,

00:49:35.040 the racists, the people who wish to tear this society apart? Do we bash our staff and say no?

00:49:40.420 Or do we have faith in God to ask? And I think, look, I'm in no way a theologian and I'm in no way

00:49:49.580 someone who is able to speak on biblical matters in any way at all. But I think

00:49:54.640 there's something in that story, which is, which is fascinating because I have a very, very strong

00:50:02.480 desire. And I know it's a personal and a human and a fallible desire to go, you know what,

00:50:07.720 these people need counseling. We need to cancel these people. They, they, they have brought

00:50:12.800 terror and horror on them. I mean, they've destroyed a large part of my life, but you know,

00:50:18.320 they gave me a new one, so that was okay. But they, but they bring misery everywhere. And you think,

00:50:25.460 you know, what, what does one do back? And I suppose, you know, the closest I can come to it now

00:50:32.060 is if God is saying, you just offer the word and the water will come, then maybe it is literally

00:50:40.820 that simple. It is, we encourage comics. We encourage those people to speak and not compel.

00:50:46.780 We encourage people to be courageous in their words, not in their, not in their desire to play the

00:50:52.860 same game as the, as those that they don't agree with play. And I struggle with this all the time

00:50:58.220 because I get more and more and more and more frustrated because, you know, we have this same

00:51:01.960 thing with Sadiq Khan. He has a block vote. We have, obviously we have, you know, the US and the

00:51:07.100 UK have the same problem with unfettered and uncontrolled immigration, which only affects the

00:51:12.640 poorest people in society, including immigrants. And you just think this has got to stop. We have to

00:51:18.100 compel you to do this. But actually, I think there is something wonderful in the human, in the mystery

00:51:23.400 of the human, which is that, you know, speak gently and carry a big stick. I mean, there's

00:51:31.260 something better about that. Well, one of the things I've really noticed on social media.

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00:52:48.320 senior or military discount. One discount per household. And I think this is most stark on Twitter.

00:52:55.260 So, since I made a comment that was somewhat impulsive on Twitter about the Israel-Hamas conflict,

00:53:03.600 I've restructured the way I'm interacting on Twitter. And so, instead of redistributing anti-woke

00:53:12.840 material, you know, which has that forceful, kind of forceful element to it, right? We need to put a

00:53:19.780 stop to this. And like, I've had, so I've been persecuted by my college of psychologists in Ontario,

00:53:28.300 and it's very annoying. And I have a temper. And I'm not that afraid to use it. And I've had

00:53:38.000 some pretty bloody, brutal fantasies about just exactly what I'd like to do to the office of the

00:53:43.900 College of Psychologists, you know? And there's a part of me that not only thinks that's justified

00:53:49.820 and necessary, but would also kind of glory in it, you know? But one of the things I've noticed,

00:53:54.800 Lawrence, is that, and this is especially true on Twitter, is that we've turned my Twitter feed into

00:54:03.700 something that's basically putting out positive messages that are pulled from my writings, right?

00:54:09.500 You can think about them as invitational messages. And I've also seen this on YouTube, you know?

00:54:15.300 When I do a more political interview that's oriented more towards fighting back against the utopian

00:54:21.720 radicals, the Twitter comment or the comment feed gets pretty vitriolic and quite polarized and

00:54:30.440 often quite unpleasant. Whereas if the message is invitational, you know, laying out an alternative

00:54:39.200 vision that's positive and talking to someone about how that might come about, which is what we did at

00:54:45.520 the ARC conference, then all of a sudden the comment sections are extremely positive. And I would also say

00:54:50.500 that those messages, especially now, attract more attention than the more political messages.

00:54:59.880 And so, you know, so maybe it is that it's incumbent. And this seems to be associated,

00:55:04.480 you tell me what you think about this, it seems to be associated with the doctrines of,

00:55:08.880 you know, turn the other cheek and resist not evil, you know? And part of the reason I really wanted

00:55:14.420 to talk to you today is because both of us have paid a rather complex personal price for taking the

00:55:22.920 stands that we've taken. Now, it's certainly not been for me, it's certainly not been something that was

00:55:27.560 without its opportunities, quite the contrary. You know, in some ways, it's the best thing that ever

00:55:32.380 happened to me, although some of it was pretty rough. You know, I lost my research career, I lost my

00:55:37.100 university career, and my clinical practice had to shut down. I mean, I spent decades investing into

00:55:42.800 those enterprises, and I was good at them, and I enjoyed them. And so sacrificing them was not

00:55:48.500 nothing, even though the consequences of that have been remarkable. But I am trying to work through the

00:55:54.560 notion that maybe all of us, all that those of us who are opposing the centralizing, power-mad,

00:56:04.260 woke, humanity-hating, woke mob should be doing is putting forth an alternative vision that's

00:56:11.860 invitational, you know? Now, that gets us back to the initial question, which is, well, does that mean

00:56:17.460 that it's reasonable to tweet out support for people who are, you know, practically opposing the

00:56:24.860 proliferation of CCTV cameras? You know, that's a place where the rubber hits the road. And I'm still

00:56:29.640 conflicted about that, because I hate those goddamn cameras. I think they're unbelievably dangerous.

00:56:35.240 And I feel that you're morally obligated to dispense with them. That's what you do in the

00:56:41.280 celebration of freedom. All arguments about security. Last thing we need is a security state.

00:56:48.820 There's no security in a security state. You give up all security in a security state. And I don't know

00:56:54.700 how to reconcile that necessity for active opposition to the more blatant forms of tyrannical

00:57:00.260 surveillance with the notion that an invitational vision that abjures use of force is clearly

00:57:09.040 both more attractive and perhaps more practically, what would you say, and perhaps more practical.

00:57:16.780 So, well, so what do you think of that? You're a temperamental guy. So, you know,

00:57:21.340 you've got an inclination to have the scrap. I think there's a humor to it. And I think the thing

00:57:30.900 about the guys that I'm not allowed to say the name of is that there's a humor to it.

00:57:39.140 There's something about it, which is we know we're never going to beat the big system, but we're not

00:57:45.980 going to go down without a fight. And no one is getting harmed in the process. So this isn't like

00:57:51.760 the equivalent of taking a man who suddenly wants to put on a wig and putting him in a woman's prison.

00:57:58.280 This is removing something that they don't want, and no one got hurt doing it, other than the,

00:58:06.820 you know, taxpayer, essentially, or the mayor in his silly scheme.

00:58:10.900 So I think if you apply a level of humor, humanity to it, then I think it has some value.

00:58:18.560 But I do agree with you. Look, we're going to, as we enter this most difficult phase of the

00:58:25.080 conflict, if I'm talking about it correctly, all of the weapons that we have tried to defend

00:58:34.620 ourselves with are going to be used as cudgels to destroy us with. Certainly over stuff like free

00:58:39.660 speech. Why shouldn't I sing from the river to the sea? Why shouldn't I call? You know,

00:58:45.460 you saw the debacle in the Senate hearing where they were saying, well, maybe it's bad calling.

00:58:53.220 They're going to, and her first thing in her apology note was to say, well, I was just upholding

00:58:58.720 the First Amendment, the right to free speech.

00:59:00.700 Yeah. Oh, man. That, yeah, right. At Harvard. Oh, yes. That was ranked 248 out of 248 universities

00:59:09.380 for free speech. That was just beyond, absolutely bloody beyond comprehension.

00:59:15.180 But then how-

00:59:15.700 We're standing for free speech.

00:59:17.500 How do we, how do we as human beings who, I think one of the differentiating factors between us

00:59:26.220 is that I do not hate woke people. And I said this at the beginning. It's really hard not to hate

00:59:35.420 Sadiq Khan because he's a really horrible guy. But I don't hate him. I hate what he does. I hate what

00:59:40.520 he does. But I don't hate him. So I think that one of the things that is, is the differentiating

00:59:46.360 factor is, and that's not to put yourself in a morally superior position, but is to turn around

00:59:51.400 and say, I don't hate you as a person. I just hate what you're doing.

00:59:55.560 Is it reasonable to say that you, that it's okay to hate what the, what people in that situation are

01:00:05.580 possessed by, you know? Yeah, I can say.

01:00:09.000 Because, well, that, that, that seems to me to be the right level of analysis is that you can see,

01:00:14.600 it's sort of like the idea of a, of a principality. You know, I can see these systems of ideas that

01:00:20.900 are at war, right? There are systems of ideas at war and the system of idea, ideas that's on the

01:00:27.200 woke side is the meta-Marxism of the post-modernists, right? Everything's a victim-victimizer

01:00:33.260 narrative. It's a, it's an all-devouring ideology that grants moral propriety to its upholders.

01:00:41.160 It's an unbelievably dangerous enterprise, but it is impersonal in some ways in that

01:00:47.820 if you have a hundred radicals, they all have the same idea. And so it's not them, it's this,

01:00:55.540 and, you know, and that means that the proper level for the battle is philosophical or theological

01:01:03.120 or spiritual or ideational or psychological rather than, than physical. Maybe it's only when you lose

01:01:09.840 the battle that you have to re, you have to resort to physical means. You also talked about the utility

01:01:15.660 of humor. But I had, I just quickly, let me just lob something in there. I've been in court the last

01:01:21.500 10 days over a libel trial. And I watched everybody who was against me who tried to destroy my life.

01:01:30.960 That's what they'd done. And I, and I thought, I'd really like to go out for a beer with you guys.

01:01:36.700 Because aside from this one little kind of crazy woke thing, where you're completely right about

01:01:42.320 everything and I'm a, you're a total moral supremacist and I'm wrong and I need to educate

01:01:47.200 myself. Aside from that one pervasive and albeit deadly character flaw, I'd really like to go out

01:01:54.140 for a beer with you. And I have a strong feeling that none of them would like to go out for a beer

01:01:59.220 with me.

01:02:01.140 No, I think, I think that's a really good observation, you know, because when I was surrounded

01:02:05.880 by screeching, harpy students, and often female, and then their idiot male enablers who were generally

01:02:14.740 psychopaths, what I kept remembering was, well, you know, you're 19. If I was at a dinner party

01:02:22.560 at your parents' house, I would probably think that you were a pretty decent young person with some

01:02:29.320 crazy ideas, rather than that you're just an absolute bloody serpentine mess of crazy ideas with

01:02:35.680 a tiny bit of good person associated. It's not like that at all. And I, I've thought about this

01:02:40.840 too, sort of technically speaking, you know, is that Jean Piaget, the developmental psychologist,

01:02:47.960 he noted that get a bunch of kids together and they can play a game coherently according to a

01:02:54.100 coherent set of rules. But if they were young enough, if you separated them and asked them what

01:02:58.380 the rules were, you got wildly disparate accounts. So together they could play the game because

01:03:05.460 each of them had fragmentary knowledge of the game, but as a unit, all the knowledge was there.

01:03:11.120 It's sort of like a group of a hundred university protesters is that because there's a hundred of

01:03:16.340 them, the whole bloody pathological principality is there. But in each person, they're like 10%

01:03:23.900 possessed, right? And so maybe what you do when you don't hate the person is that you have the

01:03:29.800 possibility of separating the wheat from the chaff, what you would hope for, for your would-be

01:03:37.080 ideological enemy is that free expression of idea in genuine dialogue would free them from the grip

01:03:48.660 of their possession. And then you'd have another useful person around, which seems to be a lot better

01:03:54.180 than, well, the potentially negative consequences of full-on combat. You mentioned, I had a journalist

01:04:02.900 friend of mine say something similar to me this week, by the way. He said, very wise man with much

01:04:09.260 experience, he said he believes that we're entering the most difficult phase of this conflict. And you

01:04:16.380 alluded to something similar. Why did that idea make itself present to you? And why do you regard

01:04:25.080 that as an accurate summation of what's happening?

01:04:30.700 I think it's difficult. As an actor, you're trained. A tiny part of your brain is trained. It's such a small

01:04:40.220 part of your brain. It's to be present and to remember at the same time. So it's a tiny part of

01:04:48.700 your brain in conflict. And that creates a sense of, I can see something's happening. And actually, it came

01:04:57.620 to me by realizing, sitting in court, when you put this ideology to reason, to cold scrutiny,

01:05:10.960 to proper and rigorous inquiry, it has nowhere to go. It has nowhere to run. It can't survive a

01:05:19.120 conversation. None of it can survive a conversation. And you notice that as, you know, these little sparks

01:05:25.860 that appear in society like anti-Semitism and people feeling that they can identify totally as

01:05:32.620 their own little crowd group in Britain, you think that people are beginning to run out of patience.

01:05:39.200 And they're just signs. And I think Peter Boghossian put it really, really well. He said, this is coming

01:05:45.080 to an end. And everyone is going to say that they never paid part. And I have, I suppose, in a sort of

01:05:51.060 roundabout in a rather stupid way. I'm trying to say, I can tell it's coming to an end. I can just

01:05:57.400 see it coming to an end. And I know it's coming to an end because it doesn't make any sense. And

01:06:02.420 nature abhors a vacuum. And we've had a vacuum now for a very, very long time.

01:06:08.540 Okay, so I'll play devil's advocate there again. So I was talking to, I talk frequently with both

01:06:14.940 Jonathan Pajot, who's been a cardinal player in this arc enterprise. He's a very wise person.

01:06:22.180 And with Michael Malice, they're quite different people because Pajot is a icon carver and a deep

01:06:29.720 Christian, trained as well in the postmodern ethos. So he understands both sides of the argument.

01:06:35.900 And Michael Malice is kind of a libertarian anarchist. But both of them believe that

01:06:47.220 we're not going to get through this bout of ideological conflict without some really serious

01:06:52.940 trouble. And my sense is more agnostic. I believe that the future isn't written in blood. And that if

01:07:02.200 we conducted ourselves wisely, we could have a virtual apocalypse, let's say, instead of the real

01:07:10.460 thing, that we could work this out in the realm of ideas. We could tilt ourselves back on the upward

01:07:15.920 path without the kind of mayhem that sometimes accompanies a transformation of ideology. Now,

01:07:23.280 there's some precedent for this. Obviously, when the Soviet Union collapsed, that was much less bloody

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01:08:53.000 But then I'm really torn about this because I look at the universities and I think, oh my God,

01:08:58.880 you guys are so far gone that nothing but your total collapse is going to bring about a transformation.

01:09:05.040 And when I start thinking that that's a rather pessimistic view, something like what happened

01:09:13.340 in Washington happens, and you get the president of MIT and Harvard and UPenn, all three woefully

01:09:19.800 underqualified for the job, come out and say in unison something so utterly blood-curdling and preposterous

01:09:28.060 that it's surreal. You think, well, it's a long ways yet to the bottom. And so you think it's going to come,

01:09:39.360 you think, you intimated that you believe that this is going to come to an end. Do you, I just can't,

01:09:45.040 I don't have any vision of how things are going to lay themselves out over the next few years. I can't

01:09:49.920 predict it. And so, but you, you said you have a sense. I can see, look, I put up five YouTube

01:09:57.620 videos last year that were all critical of the climate narrative. And basically nothing happened

01:10:04.100 to me as a consequence. YouTube put up a few warnings, you know, that like they always do about

01:10:09.100 how climate change is this ultimate catastrophe, but they left them alone. And almost all the comments

01:10:14.040 were positive. And certainly the climate catastrophe narrative has taken a vicious hit in the last

01:10:19.480 year. And people are pretty tired of the trans stupidity. So, but, but then you see the depth of

01:10:26.740 corruption in places like the universities and you think, oh my God, you know, how much trouble is

01:10:31.600 there going to have to be before sanity does, does prevail?

01:10:36.740 I suppose what gives you a sense that things are going to change. I was quite affected by

01:10:43.380 something that you said quite early on. And weirdly, um, my dad who broke the car, like he,

01:10:51.340 he slammed the brakes on in the car when I was about eight years old and he went, postmodernism is evil.

01:10:56.840 And I was like, well, I didn't understand, but I, I could just remember it. And he was obviously

01:11:01.760 listening to the BBC or something. And you said this thing quite early on. And he was a dad actually

01:11:07.740 introduced all of us to you to, to varying degrees of love. Let's put it that way. And, um, and, um,

01:11:15.620 one of the things that I thought was this idea that you raised, which was when this thing is

01:11:21.140 overthrown, what comes a sort of Hitlerian figure comes, doesn't he? Out of the Weimar, which is,

01:11:27.980 you know, Victor Davis Hanson talks about how we're in this sort of

01:11:30.780 leisurely affluent Weimar period. And, and from that comes a Hitlerian figure. And one of the

01:11:37.980 greatest things that I think about Britain and, um, John Anderson said this to me as well, when he,

01:11:43.000 when he spoke, he said, when things get really, really bad, people are going to look at Britain.

01:11:47.080 They're going to look to Britain and they're going to look at your legal system. And we're going to

01:11:50.440 look at the way that you've been going around, you know, you've reformed, you've unreformed,

01:11:55.520 you've, you've, you've reversed revolutions, you've done all this stuff. And I think that

01:12:00.180 there is within the English patients, the fundamental English patients, there's a real stoic solidness to

01:12:09.220 it. And I think that that's what will ultimately end this period that we cannot have, um, people are now

01:12:19.120 openly laughing at the way universities are talked about in the UK. Anyone who's vaguely awake is

01:12:25.940 turning around and saying, you know, don't send your kids to universities. Um, I'm, we do what we

01:12:32.060 do via the Bad Law Project to, to challenge the government over certainly stuff that they're

01:12:36.480 teaching in schools. And I think, I think a sort of bloodless coup is possible, but, uh, but part of

01:12:42.380 me is like, uh, is this is going to end violently, but it might end violently. It might end violently

01:12:49.400 in a, it's sort of in a good way for want of a better word, which is that they go, they get so

01:12:56.700 upset and so angry and so annoyed that no one is listening to them. And that British people still

01:13:02.580 want to protect their culture and not have it diluted and stuff like that, that there's a big

01:13:05.760 riot. We've already seen what's going on in London over the last three weeks. And Britain just

01:13:10.080 galvanizes itself. We're very tough like that. And, and, and that gives me some hope. Admittedly,

01:13:17.540 it's fleeting often, but it does give me some, it gives me hope that it can be, how quickly was

01:13:23.480 McCarthyism? Um, they just said, go, didn't they? It was just like, goodbye, out, you know? And I

01:13:31.560 think that that something similar might happen. Well, it might, it might depend, you know, it might

01:13:36.460 depend on how effectively it will depend, I think, on how effectively people conduct themselves. And,

01:13:42.860 you know, I think that for, for people like you and I, whatever we can do to strive to keep

01:13:49.500 enmity out of our hearts is going to all be to the good. You know, like I am very unimpressed with

01:13:58.040 the leader of Canada. I would have a very difficult time shaking his hand. I really detest him. And,

01:14:06.440 you know, possibly the right attitude would be to wish the better part of him well, and to hope

01:14:17.680 that he could escape from his narcissistic entrapment, you know?

01:14:22.360 But he won't.

01:14:23.820 That's probably, well, you know, stranger things have happened. It is possible for people to

01:14:30.860 undergo quite dramatic transformations of character. I mean, that happens to Paul, to Saul

01:14:36.660 on the way to Damascus, right? I mean, you can have a, you can have a transformative moment. And

01:14:41.680 I suppose if you had any sense, that's what you'd wish for, for everyone, that they could see the

01:14:46.620 light properly. I think that if people on the alternative vision side, well, we're seeing this

01:14:54.800 with ARC, you know, like that we put a bunch of videos up on YouTube that came from the ARC conference.

01:15:02.340 And the more political they are, the less popular they are. The more visionary, the more metaphysical,

01:15:09.740 and the more humorous they are, the better they're performing, right? And then the comments are also

01:15:14.800 extremely positive on the apolitical visionary talks and very negative on the political talks.

01:15:22.400 And so I think that is a reflection, too, of the fact that, you know, if we're going to,

01:15:27.980 those of us who are interested in standing against the use of arbitrary force should be very careful

01:15:35.640 about not even secretly being pleased when unnecessary force is used. Well, again, and that's another

01:15:43.860 thing that makes the camera issue so bloody complicated. I mean, I, I still think your

01:15:48.940 arguments about opposing their distribution is, I think your arguments are correct. And I think that

01:15:55.540 that form of civil disobedience is not only appropriate, but morally called for. You also

01:16:03.040 mentioned, you know, that one of your hallmarks for distinguishing between useful and, and dangerous

01:16:08.960 civil disobedience is the humor that goes along with it. And I, you know, that, I think that's a

01:16:14.260 really good marker, too. The best, the most popular speech that, that emerged out of the art conference

01:16:20.840 was Constantine Kizzen's speech. You know, and Constantine is damn good at interleaving the serious

01:16:28.080 with the lighthearted and self-deprecating and absurd. So there is something about that allowance for

01:16:36.840 the absurd that does seem to be a touchstone for honest communication. You see that, too, you know,

01:16:44.740 so many of the great YouTubers are comedians or ex-comedians, right? And I, that's not fluke.

01:16:52.140 They're, they're good at listening to the audience and they don't take themselves too seriously,

01:16:56.480 you know, and, and those are profound markers of

01:17:00.000 the sort of character that you might be able to trust.

01:17:05.740 Let me ask you, sorry. Oh, go ahead, go ahead.

01:17:08.520 Well, I was just, I was just saying, perhaps we're witnessing, um, one of the other things that

01:17:13.400 we're witnessing, which is either new or not new, my knowledge of history is not obviously

01:17:17.800 the greatest, is this idea of the political influencer via social media. The, the, the absence

01:17:25.460 of a political leader, you know, we've got the, the Labour Party and the Conservative Party

01:17:30.380 in the UK. The Conservative Party took in 30 million in donations in the last quarter of

01:17:34.880 2022 or whenever it was. Labour took in 3 million. The insurgent party reform, which is currently

01:17:41.880 polling, they say, at 10%, took in 20,000 pounds. So it seems to me that there is zero appetite

01:17:49.040 for a change politically, but there is a huge appetite for a change culturally or, or, or,

01:17:55.740 or realignment culturally. So that people, people always say to me, you know, you, you, you get it

01:18:02.300 times a million. But when I'm stopped on the street, people say to me, thank you for trying to protect

01:18:07.740 our culture. Thank you. And that comes from a weird, not weirdly, just normally, but it's overwhelmingly

01:18:15.860 people who are new arrivals to this country, who came to this country to succeed, who want

01:18:21.900 to play on a fair playing field. They don't want, they wanted to leave the oppressions and

01:18:26.760 the oppression hierarchies of the places that they lived in before behind. And they wanted

01:18:30.940 to fight on a fair playing field. And so I wonder whether we're also going to see the

01:18:37.520 rise in the political influencer, you know, the rock might run for it or Tucker Carlson

01:18:42.700 might become, you know, Trump's VP, doubtful, but it is, but whether the entire social media

01:18:48.840 landscape and all of, and all of the new media has, you know, you, you've got it with the

01:18:52.980 daily wire, you know, Ben Shapiro decided to run for office, who knows what would happen?

01:18:57.280 It's, it's a sort of strange development. Anyway, that was my sort of aside to your point.

01:19:02.680 Let me ask you something more personal here for a bit. I, I, what, what exactly is happening

01:19:11.940 with you as a consequence of the legal entanglements that have enveloped you? Like, what are you

01:19:18.080 in danger of? I mean, I know the process is the punishment and everyone that the police

01:19:23.400 who came to round you up are part and parcel of that. What, what were the police like?

01:19:30.220 What are the police like? Like the thing that's so striking to me about the police in the UK

01:19:34.320 and in North America is that isn't obvious to me that their natural allies are the, you

01:19:39.320 know, woke utopians. And so how did the police who came, tell us the story about the police

01:19:45.440 coming to your house and how did they treat you? And what, what, what's your family? What

01:19:50.060 are you and your family going through at the moment? Okay. So that, so the, the police,

01:19:55.240 I have to confess to being a pathetic actor and actors always want to please their audience.

01:20:00.500 So when the police turned up, I tried to make friends with them and I, I could make friends

01:20:06.320 with everyone except for one, for the arresting officer who'd got his big day. And that was

01:20:12.420 hard. Uh, but even by the end of the day, I think I'd won him round and look, I took, I

01:20:16.860 said to him, can I take a book with me? Because I'm going to be in the cells and they were nice

01:20:21.120 enough to let me take a book. So I finished off the Gulag Archipelago, which was quite

01:20:26.000 a useful time in the cells. And you're thinking, well, I don't have it that bad. Um, in terms

01:20:32.640 of, in terms of the police, I think they, you know, I think that I, again, I want to apply

01:20:39.180 this, uh, and I must apply this because otherwise I would go insane. That what people are doing

01:20:45.780 is not necessarily who they are. So I think that, you know, there was a sort of, they

01:20:51.360 were quite charged up when they came in and they really wanted to get involved. But by

01:20:55.220 the end of the day, I think I won them over and they were actually sympathetic, even though

01:20:59.400 they did nothing about it. When I said, please, can I have my children's phones and iPads

01:21:03.520 back? Because what have they got to do with this? And there was a really touching moment

01:21:09.580 and it was, it was horrible actually, because I'm stood in a police, uh, station next to

01:21:14.840 a kid, 19 year old kid, uh, or younger with like forensic sleeves on his arms. So those

01:21:21.680 white forensic sleeves, he's covered in blood, this kid. And I'm stood next to him and he's

01:21:26.320 obviously just killed somebody. And I'm, and I'm thinking, wow, we, we are the, we're

01:21:32.240 being treated with the same level of seriousness by the law. So that gave me pause for thought.

01:21:38.560 Uh, in terms of my family, I have a, my, uh, my dad is, as I think I've sort of alluded

01:21:48.980 to in this conversation with you, he was on this stuff in the, like 1985, I think I was

01:21:56.120 on that car journey when he was going. So he's sympathetic. He doesn't necessarily approve

01:22:01.540 of my tactics. Um, my one brother up is a, is a beautiful and wonderful stern brother,

01:22:10.400 but he's really there for you when you, when you need him. But he, again, is like not necessarily

01:22:16.520 approving of my tactics. My sister and I, uh, we disagree about everything. Our politics

01:22:21.640 are completely different and we get on like a house on fire. So it's like, how does, how

01:22:26.140 do you know about these things? And then the people that I really feel sorry for are my

01:22:30.420 children because, um, you know, a really well-known actor went up to my son at school

01:22:36.020 because my little son goes to this, the, I mean, the most dreadful school that Britain

01:22:41.600 has to offer by miles. It's just dreadful, full of celebrity, rich celebrities, very woke

01:22:47.580 celebrities. They teach, it's all transgenderism. The whole thing is transgenderism. And this actor

01:22:52.800 took it upon himself to go up to my son and tell him that his dad was a fascist. And

01:22:57.080 that's, um. Oh yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's pleasant. How old is your son?

01:23:01.260 He was 11 at that point. Oh yeah, lovely, lovely. Yeah, yeah, that's great. Well, I guess that

01:23:06.360 guy picked on someone his own size, eh? Yeah, so I, so that is difficult. But my kids, you

01:23:13.320 know, the whole point of doing anything you ever do is for you and for your kids, you know,

01:23:18.300 and you, and you know, part of the, I think part of the process of meaning full stop is

01:23:24.640 to remedy some of the things that, you know, it's, it's, it's to try and refine the, the

01:23:29.700 mechanism of the family and all those sorts of things as you learn from your father and

01:23:33.500 your mother, the mistakes they made and you go, well, I'll try not to make that mistake.

01:23:37.140 So your, your life is constantly driven by meaning. You're always trying to find meaning

01:23:41.660 in it. So therefore with, with my kids, they understand me and they get me and then, and

01:23:47.780 they know who I am and I, and I'm flattered and honored to be their parent. And that's,

01:23:52.760 that, that's how it is. I mean, is it, is it difficult? Yes, it's difficult. But is it

01:23:58.220 difficult to be sat in a situation in life where you had no choice, no say, and your life

01:24:04.000 was ended like that? So I, I, you can't, I like these old truisms. These, I like these

01:24:09.540 old, the, the, these things that someone's got it worse than you. I like those things.

01:24:15.080 I like sticks and stones may break my bones. I like that. I like all of these things because

01:24:19.720 it reminds you that you are, you are entrenched in a reality of your own making, which isn't

01:24:26.360 as bad as it could be. So be tough and be strong and, and love your, and love as much as you

01:24:31.880 can.

01:24:32.800 And, and how about your wife? How, how has she managed to, managed with all the disruptions

01:24:39.220 in your career and, and you putting yourself and, and your family, well, in one way on the

01:24:46.700 line? I mean, it's tricky, right? Because you're always putting your family on the line

01:24:50.840 in one way or another. Like there's no escape from that in life, you know? And so really what

01:24:55.360 you do is you decide how you're going to lay things on the line. But often what people will

01:25:00.600 do is take illusory short-term security in preference to actually addressing the issue at

01:25:07.520 hand. And I mean, you've, you've suffered a dreadful amount of disruption, especially on the career

01:25:14.240 front as a consequence of your political stances. And how, what's that done to your marriage?

01:25:20.400 Well, my marriage ended in 2016. And she is a very interesting character who is using the,

01:25:35.860 um, we really need to have a look at the family courts in the UK. We're still arguing in family

01:25:41.120 court. Weirdly, whichever political case I have seems to work its way into a family court case

01:25:47.300 at the, at the same time, which is different. But my partner, what my partner is, is, uh,

01:25:52.760 is still water. You know, she just, when I, um, when I go, I can't, this is mad. It's too much.

01:26:02.620 She just goes, it's okay. It's okay. You'll be all right. Do you want to talk about it?

01:26:08.300 And it's, we, she, she's still water and I'm fire. And that works for me.

01:26:12.380 Oh yeah. Uh-huh.

01:26:14.020 Because I, as you said, you know, you've got a temper. I've got a real temper. Like yesterday

01:26:18.540 when I was with my kids and I was saying, we've got to go and see grandpa and everyone. And they're

01:26:23.700 like, the car's going to come in four minutes. And they're like, I'm ready. And it's like,

01:26:27.700 then the car arrives and no one's ready. And you're just like, kids, come on, go. So, um,

01:26:34.320 my partner is, she's the, she's the ice and the cooling to, to the fire that I can be sometimes.

01:26:40.800 Right. Well, that's, that's, that's handy. That's handy to have someone who can let you

01:26:48.160 take a sober second thought. Yeah. So what are your plans? What are your plans? What are you doing

01:26:56.120 now? And what are your plans for the future? So now-

01:27:00.320 How are you keeping body and soul together even?

01:27:03.320 Well, it's really annoying. I had a neck operation. So I, I used to keep my body and

01:27:08.540 soul together by exercising, but I had a neck operation and that stopped me from being able

01:27:12.980 to exercise. So I need to work out a system of doing that. What I'm doing is I'm taking the

01:27:18.480 government court for, uh, non-contact child abuse of children in school via their, um,

01:27:28.940 transgender policies in the UK schooling in schools, because it's disgusting what they're

01:27:34.420 teaching our children. And we've got a, we've put together a big case and we're going to take

01:27:37.900 the department of education to court. I'm fighting the, um,

01:27:41.960 Who's we? Who's we that's doing that?

01:27:44.220 So I started, I started not, once I realized that politics is fine, but it's not what people

01:27:52.000 care about. People are going to vote red. They're going to vote blue. They're going to

01:27:55.600 vote red. They're going to vote blue. They're going to swap one time or another. I, we thought,

01:27:59.820 okay, what are the other things that we can do to change stuff? So we started up something

01:28:03.560 called the Bad Law Project, which is my team, which is a small team. It's about six, eight

01:28:07.580 people. And I have, um, two, uh, I have a barrister and a solicitor within that team.

01:28:13.880 And we are going to take the department of education to court to stop them teaching our

01:28:19.280 kids this stuff. Cause once we stop them teaching the kids this stuff, then what comes out of

01:28:23.340 university is not going to be such a problem. Um, we're fighting our, we have an MP in Andrew

01:28:29.020 Bridgen, uh, in Northwest Estorship, who was kicked out of the conservative party, uh, for

01:28:35.440 criticizing the COVID vaccine rollout and saying that it did cause some problems.

01:28:41.460 And then we do bits of media stuff as well, you know, just, just to sort of, you know,

01:28:48.220 offer up some thoughts about life. So we try and look at it as a stool whereby we have legal,

01:28:53.900 political and, um, media and I'll do that until I can't take it anymore. But at the moment I'm sat

01:29:01.480 totally desperate because I've walked out of my libel case two weeks ago and I'll get a judgment

01:29:10.860 before Christmas. And it, and it will be very, very important judgment for the UK because the

01:29:15.960 judge is being asked to define the meaning of the word racist, which is what I always wanted.

01:29:20.940 I wanted someone to define this word as certainly in law, because we've got two versions of it. Even

01:29:25.740 in the, in the UK law, we have the equal treatment bench book, which defines the racist as pretty

01:29:32.300 much everybody who has a bad thought about anybody. It's, it's a, it's a, and this is

01:29:37.620 judges guidance. And then you've got the Oxford English dictionary before it's turned into the

01:29:42.680 Merriam-Webster dictionary, which says racism is prejudice against someone based on the color of

01:29:47.640 their skin or their ethnicity. So I really want to work out. I, I've been called a racist. So I took

01:29:52.640 someone to court, they took me to court, I took them to court. I'm waiting to hear it on a judgment

01:29:57.120 on that. And I think that will, that, that will be very, I think that will really matter to the

01:30:02.940 people of Britain. So can, can you provide some more details about the nature of the case and what

01:30:07.280 it is that you're hoping to accomplish and what you have at stake? Yeah. So, um, in 2020,

01:30:13.980 uh, the big supermarket in the UK called Sainsbury's tweeted, um, that they were going to provide in

01:30:23.200 the light of George Floyd's death, they were going to provide safe spaces for their black employees

01:30:30.100 in their supermarket. To which I responded, that's proto-segregationism. Are they not safe?

01:30:39.380 Are they not safe in your supermarket? Uh, so then I was branded a racist by, uh, three people. One of

01:30:46.580 them was there, was in show business, was, you know, one of my colleagues in show business. And

01:30:51.380 she said, anyone who hires Lawrence Fox does certain analogies unequivocally, unapologetically

01:30:57.240 and publicly a racist. So, I mean, that was, that was a, that was a pretty, that was a death

01:31:02.680 knell to my acting career. So I just swapped the word. I, I swapped the tweet round and I said,

01:31:10.300 anyone who hires Nicola Thorpe, which is her name, does certain knowledge she's unequivocally,

01:31:14.660 unapologetically and publicly a pedophile. And she then tweeted, she, she then sued me for defamation

01:31:21.660 and I countersued her for racism, which is what I wanted to do. So we just finished the court case in

01:31:27.900 the last, uh, we finished it a week ago on last Thursday and we're expecting a judgment in the

01:31:33.280 next short period. And it, and it's, it's going to be interesting because it'll mean for, for the

01:31:39.740 person that, like you say, they always come for the, the smaller person. They don't come for the

01:31:44.680 guy with a big profile. He's not going to arrest you at Heathrow for criticizing his climate scan

01:31:49.600 cameras, is he? He's going to arrest somebody else who's done it. So that I'm trying to fight for the

01:31:56.860 fact that you're not going to lose your job for criticizing diversity, equity, and inclusion.

01:32:01.060 And you're not going to criticize, you're not, you're not going to lose your job for, for

01:32:04.240 criticizing so-called anti-racism. And you're not going to lose your, lose your job for complaining

01:32:09.320 about the dilution of your culture. None of which is racist. It's just like a family. It's protecting

01:32:16.520 your, your thing. So we'll see. I think it'll be quite a, quite a, quite a, quite a. And is it done?

01:32:22.240 Is it, is it done except for the judgment? It's all finished. Eight, eight days in high

01:32:25.600 court. And how are you, how do you, how do you feel about, how do you feel about your

01:32:29.120 case? Are you optimistic, pessimistic? Can you say? I, I, I, all I can say is that I, it's

01:32:36.960 very, very hard to lie in court. And, and when I, I didn't have to lie when I was in court.

01:32:45.000 I didn't have to tell a single lie. But some of the examples were hilarious.

01:32:50.480 Well, that's, well, that's one of the advantages of telling the truth is that when push comes

01:32:54.680 to shove, it makes your life a hell of a lot simpler.

01:32:57.900 Well, you're right. Well, it's, you know, you're, it's your, it's your mantra, which is

01:33:01.680 a really good, it's a really good, you know, I say it to my kids. I think people do. And

01:33:06.360 I think you, you've offered this to people, which is like, you know, honesty is a, honesty

01:33:10.720 is the best policy. It's another one of these truisms that, that people just forgot.

01:33:14.720 And replaced with no Martin Luther King is so yesterday. It's like, no, no, these things

01:33:19.680 really matter to people. So, um, I, I sat and had my character dismantled by a, an activist

01:33:29.100 barrister. And I gave as good as I got.

01:33:33.720 Hmm. Okay. So you're feeling, you, so you're feeling morally confident in your, in your stance.

01:33:42.900 And, and when, when do you find out?

01:33:45.220 Well, I think the judgment may come down this Friday and if it comes down this Friday, then

01:33:50.240 it's good news for, for, for British people who, you know, don't want to be called racist

01:33:57.080 just because they disagree with somebody about any issue at all. Now you can be called a racist

01:34:01.840 for disagreeing about climate change. But you know, the other thing about England, and we

01:34:06.100 were talking about it earlier, is this sort of stoic sense of patience that the Brits

01:34:10.700 have. In the UK, if you call someone a racist, that's your job finished forever. That's it,

01:34:18.120 it's gone. It means so much. And yet to the people that throw the allegation around, it

01:34:23.100 means nothing. So, you know, we have a problem there. And I, my enmity was, I, I, when I said

01:34:29.680 that I would like to go for a beer with those guys, one of the people I didn't want to go

01:34:34.280 for a beer with, because they were so possessed with, why are you asking me questions? You're

01:34:39.600 a white supremacist. It's like, hang on a minute, a middle class woman in a dock is accusing

01:34:45.720 a middle class man of being a racist. There's no black people or brown people anywhere near

01:34:51.400 this court case. It's just white people walking around calling each other racist. So I, my job,

01:34:56.860 my goal, if it's willed, is to preserve the one thing that a man owns. And my father taught me and

01:35:06.160 my children will learn from me, which is you have your good name and that's it. That's it. You got

01:35:10.300 nothing else. Yeah, well, a huge, a huge part of this culture war is the battle between true and false

01:35:20.020 rights to a good name. You know, an immense part of what's driving the allyship on the part of the

01:35:28.460 radicals is the desire to enhance their reputation without having to do any of the productive work

01:35:34.980 necessary to have a reputation. And to substitute any and all other qualifications for genuine

01:35:42.120 qualification, the president of Harvard has 11 publications to her name. Okay, so she was a

01:35:50.380 tenured professor in the Ivy Leagues, first at Stanford, if I remember correctly, then a dean at

01:35:56.200 Harvard, and then the president of Harvard. She isn't qualified enough to get a junior position at a

01:36:03.280 mid-level state university in Canada or the U.S. Right. So in order for her to justify even the fact

01:36:11.800 of her academic existence, she has to invent an entirely different structure of value to position

01:36:19.180 herself as a contender for the occupations that were granted to her. It's an absolute bloody travesty.

01:36:27.020 But so how do we put up with that? So when you're, I have a huge issue with this as well, because

01:36:32.900 the man who taught me English, so my first interaction with English language was from a

01:36:39.320 man called Jeremy Lemon. And he took, he taught my father English, he was that old. He had been

01:36:45.400 teaching at school, and he taught me how to understand the English language. And he taught

01:36:51.140 it to me at a time when I was able to receive it, 13, really like able to, and it gave me millions of

01:36:59.540 pounds for my career. It earned me millions because I understood the language and how it

01:37:04.460 works and what it was. And now I look at these, I look at some of the stuff my kids come home with,

01:37:09.560 and I look at some of the stuff, and I just go, you're not learning anything. Like you're not

01:37:14.500 learning anything. You're being told a lot of stuff, but you're not learning anything.

01:37:18.600 Yeah. Well, you know, our, while my plan for that is my daughter and I are launching a new

01:37:24.540 university enterprise, probably in February, we've got excellent professors delivering what I think

01:37:31.920 will be the best quality lectures available, both technically and, and conceptually. I think,

01:37:38.120 you know, this is, this is an optimistic way of looking at it, you know, as the utopian globalist

01:37:44.080 types, the ideologues abandon everything of value, beauty, truth, justice, genuine merit.

01:37:51.380 They leave it all on the table. And what that should mean is that other people can just come

01:37:55.820 along and scoop it up and make use of it. And I mean, again, that seems to be a more appropriate

01:38:02.020 response than railing against the establishment. It's like, well, if they're doing such a bad job,

01:38:07.980 maybe we can do a better job and invite people along. We had a really quite a spectacular

01:38:12.220 success with this ARC conference. So here's something cool. So we released the videos from

01:38:18.360 the ARC conference. And within three weeks, we had four times as many views of our material as the

01:38:23.780 WEF had of what they released on YouTube over the last year. Good. So I think that, you know,

01:38:31.500 and this, this speaks back to the conversation, partial conversation we had earlier about whether or not

01:38:36.280 we could risk being optimistic is that as those who oppose our culture, abandon what's useful about

01:38:47.380 it, that does free up the opportunity for other people to make use of it. And maybe there's infinite

01:38:54.080 opportunity there. I mean, certainly that's, look at what's happened on, on the social media side. I mean,

01:38:59.160 as the legacy corporate media enterprises have become almost universally corrupt, there's been a

01:39:05.920 massive opportunity for people like Joe Rogan, who really do nothing but sit down and have an honest

01:39:10.820 conversation. And so, you know, that's a pretty good deal. So, all right, well, look, I want to wish you

01:39:20.220 good luck in your lawsuits and your pursuits, especially against the people in the education

01:39:28.880 departments. I mean, I can't see any enterprise in the West that's become more corrupt than the

01:39:33.900 education enterprise per se, right? K through 12, university, the whole bloody thing looks like

01:39:40.980 it's done as far as I can tell. And maybe something spectacularly better will emerge as an alternative.

01:39:47.940 It certainly could be the case. Be fair. I'll be watching the progress of your court cases with

01:39:52.960 real interest. And maybe, I don't know exactly know when this will release. It'll probably be after

01:39:59.060 your, the results of your libel case are, are made public. And so we'll update everybody on that.

01:40:07.600 Thank you very much for agreeing to talk to me today. I'm just going to let everybody know too,

01:40:11.460 I'm going to spend an extra half an hour, as I always do, talking to Lawrence on the DW Plus platform.

01:40:17.580 After this. And I'm going to walk through the details of his life, which we didn't get to

01:40:23.580 on this side of the conversation. So if all of you who are watching and listening want to join us

01:40:27.980 over there, you're more than welcome to. And other than that, is there anything else you'd like to

01:40:32.920 bring to the attention of people who are watching and listening before we close off this segment?

01:40:37.360 Um, just to, just to speak. If you don't speak, no one's going to hear you. Just speak.

01:40:49.060 Yeah. If you have something to say and it's, it's grinding away at you, probably time to say it,

01:40:56.100 even if you don't do it perfectly. Right. Right. Yeah. All right, Mr. Fox. Pleasure talking to you and

01:41:03.640 getting to know you a little bit better. Uh, thank you to everybody watching and listening

01:41:06.980 to the Daily Wire Plus people for making this possible, for coming up here to Vancouver Island,

01:41:10.860 which is where I am now. Bit of a family, um, emergency up here. And so thank you for,

01:41:17.900 to all those people for making this podcast possible and, uh, to everyone watching and listening,

01:41:23.680 thanks for your time and attention. And we'll see you again in the relatively near future.

01:41:27.020 Chavis Fox off to the Daily Wire Plus side.

411. You Are Already Living in 1984 ｜ Laurence Fox

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