The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 416. The Revolution of German Farmers ｜ Eva Vlaardingerbroek & Anthony Lee

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00:00:57.420 Hello everyone. I have the opportunity today to speak with Eva Vladingerbroek and Anthony Lee.

00:01:13.760 Eva is a political commentator from the Netherlands.

00:01:16.060 She was integrally involved in the Dutch farmer protests in recent years and has recently been with the German farmers and truckers and dock workers and railway workers who've basically brought Germany to its knees in the last weeks,

00:01:32.620 even though you may not have seen much of that in the so-called legacy media circles.

00:01:38.660 Anyways, I talked to Eva today and to Anthony about just exactly what's been happening in Germany and the Netherlands and many other European countries as well with regards to these essentially populist uprisings similar, say, to the trucker convoy in Canada.

00:01:55.600 We discussed the scope of that movement, who was involved by group, the aims, the consequences, and the likely outcomes on the German and broader European political front in the upcoming years and beyond.

00:02:12.900 Join us for that.

00:02:14.780 So where are you, Eva, and what are you doing?

00:02:17.100 I'm in Berlin right now in Germany, and I've been on the road here in Germany all over the country for the past seven days, because for the past seven days, the country has witnessed some of the largest farmers' protests that Germany has ever seen.

00:02:31.620 And this protest wasn't actually just joined by farmers, but was a, what I would call, massive uprising of blue-collar workers, ordinary citizens, people who are just fed up with the German federal government, people that are fed up feeling like they have no right to exist, being taxed into oblivion, and just wanted to make a fist and say, we're done with you guys.

00:02:56.140 That was the general sentiment that I've witnessed around here, and I've been reporting on it.

00:03:01.580 I've been going out on the roads with the farmers, cheering them on, and on the first day, on Monday last week, I was on the A2, which is the busiest highway in Europe, where I met farmer Anthony Lee, who is sitting right beside me, who was part of the organization, and they conducted one of the largest roadblocks of the highway there that, well, I mean, I have ever seen, but I think Germany has ever seen.

00:03:24.500 And this was a roadblock that went on for kilometers, miles and miles on end.

00:03:29.840 And I can still get emotional thinking back on it, because it really reminded me of the Dutch farmers' protests and even the Canadian Freedom Convoy.

00:03:39.280 At a certain point, we saw all of the tractors going onto the road, because the truckers, the German truckers, came to help them block the road, and it was just the most massive thing that I've seen in a while. 0.50

00:03:50.940 And so I met this hero of a man who's sitting right next to me, former Anthony Lee right there.

00:03:56.660 And now we are in Berlin, because today was the grand finale of the protests of the past week.

00:04:01.960 And he actually spoke today on stage at the Brandenburger tour next to the federal government to tell the German government who's boss, essentially.

00:04:10.320 So, Anthony, why is it that you're involved in this?

00:04:15.920 And I'd like you to speak personally first.

00:04:18.380 Like, what is it that has disrupted your life to the point where you're willing to use your valuable time, energy, and machinery to engage in political activity and protest,

00:04:31.260 instead of doing what farmers usually do, which is like working 16 hours a day?

00:04:35.520 So, how long have you been doing this, and exactly what's going on as far as you're concerned?

00:04:39.800 Let's make it personal to begin with.

00:04:42.280 Well, yes, thank you, first of all, for having us on the show.

00:04:44.860 It's a great pleasure.

00:04:46.720 Well, personally, I'm just afraid of the future, of the future for my kids.

00:04:52.500 I have three kids.

00:04:53.100 And, like, I think every other farmer on this world, they want the next generation to carry on doing the job,

00:05:00.860 which has been going on through dozens of generations in some of our cases in Germany.

00:05:06.780 I know friends who are in the 15th, 16th generation.

00:05:10.060 And now we have a policy, not only now, actually, I would say the last 10, 15 years,

00:05:15.080 we have a policy in Germany and all over Europe, actually, which is especially not farmers-friendly, to be polite.

00:05:26.300 And we started in 2019 with around about 15,000 tractors who came to Berlin to start this protest.

00:05:36.740 And we've been carrying on the last four years.

00:05:41.460 We spoke to politicians on all levels.

00:05:45.660 And since two years, the last two years, we have, I would say, a green-dictated government in Germany, 0.86

00:05:53.160 which is making life actually not only complicated, complicated for us farmers or for, like Eva said, the ordinary workers, the blue-collar workers.

00:06:03.820 So, yeah, this is why we started on the 18th of December last year with a new massive protest.

00:06:14.040 And this is special now because all organizations are united like they've never been.

00:06:21.320 And we are standing together against this kind of policy.

00:06:25.820 And like Eva said, today was one of the, I'd say it was even bigger than 2019.

00:06:33.040 I don't have the numbers, but I came to Berlin this morning and I passed, I would say, probably 15, 20 kilometers long, well, yeah.

00:06:44.660 A convoi.

00:06:45.220 A convoi of truck drivers, farmers.

00:06:49.660 And this was only from one direction to Berlin.

00:06:52.060 And we came from all over, all directions.

00:06:55.800 And many didn't even make it into the city because it was packed.

00:06:59.920 Okay, so there's a bunch of mysteries there to unpack.

00:07:02.440 And the first thing I'd like to know that everybody who's watching and listening needs to know is what exactly has, what green policies in particular, like why do you characterize the policies as green first?

00:07:15.560 And then what green policies are making your life as a farmer and farmers' lives in general untenable?

00:07:23.560 And why is it having the impact that it's having?

00:07:27.380 Provide me with some details about what it is that you're facing.

00:07:30.120 Well, our European government, the last years, I'd say, they came up with ideas of a green deal.

00:07:40.920 They call it a green deal.

00:07:41.980 And everything which you pronounce green is supposed to be something good, right?

00:07:47.920 And nobody really has, nobody wants to ruin the environment.

00:07:52.700 Everybody wants to protect the environment, which is good, don't get me wrong.

00:07:55.780 But I'd say it's kind of an agenda to get rid of us, like we saw in Holland the last two years. 1.00

00:08:07.780 And we have a thing in Europe, in the European Union, which is a part of the Green Deal, they call it farm-to-fork strategy. 0.56

00:08:17.300 And there's four things you have to remember or know about this strategy.

00:08:22.660 10% of the whole European farmland, they want to get out of use.

00:08:29.920 So we're not allowed to use it anymore.

00:08:32.700 I mean, 10% of Europe, which is kind of quite a lot.

00:08:36.340 50% of plant protection, chemical plant protection, they want to cut down.

00:08:42.080 50%.

00:08:42.520 I don't know how they made up this number, but it's a hell of a lot.

00:08:46.580 It's like if you go to a doctor and the doctor is only allowed to use 50% of the medication.

00:08:52.120 It's ridiculous because we need medication for our plants, which is actually totally normal.

00:08:58.840 And then they want us to have 25% of the European Union, the farmland, only to use by organic farming.

00:09:09.120 Which I don't really have a problem with organic farming, but you use the devil of space or land,

00:09:15.900 or you only harvest 50% if you're lucky.

00:09:22.140 And this fourth thing, what was the fourth thing?

00:09:27.560 I think I already met him.

00:09:28.800 Well, I mean, I think what's important to know is that just like with the Dutch farmers' protest,

00:09:33.660 we have, there is a sort of a structure to the attack on farming that isn't just on a national level.

00:09:39.740 There's definitely, as you said, there's a European Green Deal that we're working with, 0.58

00:09:43.480 which is pushed forward by unelected bureaucrats. 0.75

00:09:47.280 In this case, forgive me, but a Dutch man, Frans Timmermans, who is the mastermind or the evil mastermind, 0.96

00:09:54.740 I would say, behind the European Green Deal.

00:09:56.880 And then in every national country, there is a different set of policies that is used to target the specific farming groups.

00:10:04.140 Right.

00:10:04.280 So in the Netherlands, when we last talked, Jordan, about the farmers' protests there, I told you that it was about nitrogen, right?

00:10:11.880 The courts ruled in the Netherlands that we are facing a nitrogen crisis.

00:10:16.280 They are using European legislation for that to get rid of our farmers.

00:10:20.400 And here in Germany, what the mainstream will tell you was the main reason why the farmers now were particularly angry

00:10:27.880 or what sparked these protests was the elimination of tax breaks on agricultural diesel.

00:10:35.140 And the backstory to that is that the German government doesn't have their finances in check

00:10:41.020 and has a huge hole in their budget and was also trying to fill that gap.

00:10:47.620 And they said, well, let's go after what they call climate-feindliche subvention,

00:10:53.860 so climate-unfriendly subsidies.

00:10:57.560 And so they said, we need to cut back on the tax break that the farmers get for agricultural diesel,

00:11:03.860 which those taxes normally only involve, like, for, you know, diesel for people who go out on the road.

00:11:09.480 That's what that tax is for. 0.66

00:11:10.920 And farmers, obviously, just use it on their own land.

00:11:14.560 So the fact that they came after the farmers now and tried to, you know,

00:11:18.880 fill their own gap in their own budget due to their own mismanagement,

00:11:23.440 and they target now the people that provide us with our daily meals,

00:11:27.540 that initially sparked a lot of anger.

00:11:29.860 But I would say, and I think you would probably agree with me, Anthony,

00:11:32.700 is that there is a general sentiment within the German population

00:11:39.000 that was very much reflected at these protests of just feeling like the German government

00:11:43.600 and not just the German government, also the Dutch government and European Union

00:11:46.780 is constantly acting contrary to the interest of ordinary people

00:11:51.340 who, in fact, pay their salaries because they are taxed already into oblivion, right?

00:11:57.080 So the general theme that we constantly heard there was a slogan basically saying

00:12:03.460 the government needs to go, right?

00:12:05.480 This wasn't just about these tax breaks.

00:12:07.820 This was really a general dismay, great dismay, with the federal German government

00:12:13.460 and the policies that they stand for.

00:12:16.560 So, Eva, let me ask you about that in more detail.

00:12:19.540 Then, Anthony, I'll go right back to you. 0.98

00:12:21.080 So, when the truck protest in Canada emerged, there were all sorts of idiot rumors, 0.99

00:12:30.240 many of them spread by the federal government, 0.99

00:12:32.280 that this was like a MAGA-style January 6th insurrection,

00:12:35.840 that it was funded by MAGA-Republicans, 1.00

00:12:38.200 which is about the stupidest thing I can possibly imagine, or even by Russians. 1.00

00:12:42.160 But underneath that, there was a fear, you might say, as well as manipulation. 0.99

00:12:46.840 There was a fear that this sort of popular uprising was anti-democratic in its fundamental essence.

00:12:53.220 And, you know, when you say things like the government has to go,

00:12:56.520 I'm wondering how the two of you reconcile the fact,

00:13:00.680 and you can help me straighten this out,

00:13:02.120 reconcile the fact that Germany is led by a democratically elected government,

00:13:06.680 and yet these massive protests are emerging with the proposition that the government has to go.

00:13:11.960 And the question is, in a democracy, what does it mean that the government has to go,

00:13:17.420 and how do you see what's happening on the protest front in Germany,

00:13:22.080 acting in a manner that's commensurate with democratic principles?

00:13:25.300 Eva, maybe you can start that.

00:13:26.920 Right. Well, I feel like it couldn't be more democratic what we are seeing right now,

00:13:30.660 because you are seeing people exercising their democratic rights to protest

00:13:34.600 against a government that doesn't represent their interest anymore.

00:13:38.620 I think the general support for the government has sunk to about 30 percent,

00:13:43.020 according to the polls here, right?

00:13:44.680 So there are people in power right now who have been in power for the past two and a half years,

00:13:49.240 who were elected by the German people, of course, democratically speaking,

00:13:53.820 but who have, I would say, messed up so majorly that they've lost the support of the people.

00:13:59.080 And that's exactly the opinion that those people have now gone out to voice,

00:14:03.360 and at their own expense.

00:14:04.620 Because, I mean, like you said, farmers are hands-on people that absolutely do not want to spend time

00:14:09.360 away from their farms, usually, because they simply can't afford it.

00:14:12.620 And the fact that they've now gone out in such large numbers to protest and make use of their democratic rights,

00:14:17.720 to me, this is the epitome of democracy.

00:14:20.580 And what you see is that instead of celebrating that, the mainstream media,

00:14:24.980 exactly the way that you described the Canadian process,

00:14:27.720 they are now saying, well, this is an insurrection,

00:14:30.880 these are people that aren't democratic,

00:14:32.840 this is extremely far-right, you know, that's the,

00:14:35.460 they constantly set the far-right label on it.

00:14:38.200 And especially in Germany, in the historical context of this nation,

00:14:42.980 that label holds a lot of power.

00:14:46.040 I mean, we all understand why, right?

00:14:48.220 So being called far-right is not something that you want in Germany,

00:14:51.540 but it's been overused by the mainstream media and establishment so much so

00:14:55.980 that clearly people feel like, well, whatever, then I'll be labeled far-right,

00:15:01.720 but apparently they have nothing to lose anymore, right?

00:15:04.420 So it's laughable to me that, but I understand why they're doing it,

00:15:10.120 that they're trying to label these people as extremists,

00:15:12.820 when all that I've seen are people who are just fed up with not being heard,

00:15:18.920 who actually want more democratic legitimation to the government.

00:15:24.180 They want to be represented by the people in power.

00:15:27.340 And they feel not just unwanted and unheard,

00:15:30.380 they feel like they are being threatened in their existence.

00:15:32.800 They feel like they are ruled by people who essentially hate them.

00:15:36.860 And so that's all I've seen.

00:15:39.260 I've just seen ordinary, hardworking people who are fed up

00:15:42.640 and came to exercise their democratic rights.

00:15:45.320 Anthony, Eva makes the case that you have to have a fair bit of gall

00:15:51.160 or desperation in Germany to ally yourself with a movement

00:15:55.740 that's been pilloried as far-right,

00:15:58.320 not least because of the historical precedence of that terminology for Germany.

00:16:02.440 And so I'm wondering how you regard yourself politically

00:16:05.700 and maybe how you regard the majority of the people

00:16:09.840 who are involved in this protest politically.

00:16:11.740 What set of descriptors do you think might reasonably be applied to them?

00:16:17.260 And why is it that you decided that you would overcome the risk

00:16:21.100 associated with being tarred with the far-right brush

00:16:23.840 to continue the protest that you have been engaged in?

00:16:28.160 Well, I say my personal advantage is that I'm half British.

00:16:33.580 My dad was in the British military.

00:16:36.180 So, I mean, I was born in Germany and raised in Germany

00:16:38.940 and I went to German school,

00:16:40.380 but I'm not afraid of the typical right agenda

00:16:47.360 they are trying to force, for seed in Germany.

00:16:52.980 But many people still are.

00:16:54.540 Actually, it's getting less now because the media's overdone it

00:17:00.540 and people don't really care anymore.

00:17:03.320 And you asked about our government.

00:17:07.520 I mean, this government's been in charge for more than two years.

00:17:11.940 And Germany is one of the economic motors,

00:17:15.820 I'd say, the biggest in Europe.

00:17:19.280 And we are the only country, industrially country,

00:17:25.900 which has a, they call it a negative growth in Germany.

00:17:28.900 I mean, they even try to make that nice. 0.97

00:17:30.940 It's ridiculous.

00:17:31.680 I mean, how can you have a negative growth? 0.84

00:17:33.520 And they blame it on Putin, on Russia or on the environment,

00:17:40.620 whatever, you know, but it's all house made

00:17:43.640 because this country is one of the,

00:17:48.360 and was one of the wealthiest countries in Europe

00:17:51.440 and in the world.

00:17:52.760 And they managed to ruin our economy in less than two years.

00:17:59.100 I mean, they switched off the most efficient

00:18:02.320 and safest nuclear power plants on the world.

00:18:06.920 And this is all because the Green Party in Germany,

00:18:10.920 that was their main goal since the early 80s.

00:18:14.180 And they managed that.

00:18:15.720 And from the day we switched off these super efficient

00:18:20.540 nuclear power plants,

00:18:21.740 we became, we have to beg for electricity,

00:18:29.120 especially in France,

00:18:30.740 which is mostly a nuclear power plant in any way.

00:18:34.920 And you can carry it on with so many things.

00:18:38.260 We are reducing our best industry in the world,

00:18:43.440 I'd say, our car industry.

00:18:45.220 You know, they are losing, what's the right word for it?

00:18:51.860 Contact to the Japanese cars and so on.

00:18:56.500 And people see that and people lose money.

00:19:00.280 Our inflation rate is the highest in Europe

00:19:02.940 and it's not going down.

00:19:04.640 And you cannot say it's Russia to blame or anybody else.

00:19:09.220 If all the countries around you are having growth,

00:19:12.320 even the UK has growth,

00:19:13.740 even though everybody said in Germany,

00:19:16.400 well, now after Brexit, they will get poor.

00:19:20.620 And it's not the case.

00:19:21.940 So people see that.

00:19:24.740 And even like Ava said,

00:19:27.000 every worker has to pay more and earns less.

00:19:31.640 So that's why it's turned.

00:19:35.760 And there's so many people who are fed up of this government.

00:19:39.980 So I've observed, well, a variety of things.

00:19:44.040 First of all, it's not easy to get coverage of the Germany,

00:19:47.860 of the protests in Germany on legacy media.

00:19:50.560 It's as if really nothing is going on.

00:19:52.560 And it's a strange thing, eh?

00:19:54.220 Because watching you guys from the outside,

00:19:57.300 and I think the same is probably true of what's happening in Spain

00:20:00.540 and what's happening in Poland,

00:20:02.280 it's so minimized and invisible

00:20:03.920 that the only place that I've really been able to track it is Twitter.

00:20:06.760 And so that makes it seem in some real sense

00:20:10.700 that it's conspiratorial thinking,

00:20:12.500 even to admit to the fact that it's happening at all.

00:20:15.660 So we've outlined, but it is happening,

00:20:17.740 and we've outlined some of the causes,

00:20:19.260 and we've noted that it's happening in many countries,

00:20:22.100 Canada, the Netherlands, Spain, Poland, Germany,

00:20:25.680 and we'll continue to do so.

00:20:27.820 We've outlined the fact that there are factors at work.

00:20:31.100 So it's an overarching, bureaucratically imposed, top-down, hypothetically green agenda

00:20:37.120 that's aiming to make a moral virtue out of the so-called degrowth

00:20:42.220 that's indistinguishable from economic failure and catastrophic guidance.

00:20:48.360 And that's now being touted as a moral virtue,

00:20:50.480 which will do nothing but impoverish poor people

00:20:52.880 and make them unbelievably desperate

00:20:54.960 and reliant on places like China and India

00:20:57.960 that'll take the forefront and the leadership in industrial development

00:21:01.320 and very rapidly if we don't get our act together.

00:21:03.980 Now, you guys have noticed,

00:21:05.580 now some evidence for that, I would say,

00:21:07.480 for what we're laying out as the causes

00:21:09.780 can be seen in the fact that, as you guys pointed out,

00:21:13.640 it's not just the farmers in Germany

00:21:16.040 that are part and parcel of this latest protest.

00:21:19.420 And so, Ava, can you give us some insight

00:21:23.220 into how widespread the participation has been

00:21:26.460 and what other groups of primarily working class,

00:21:29.840 is my understanding,

00:21:32.440 what other primary working class groups

00:21:34.940 have become involved and at what scale?

00:21:38.080 Right, yeah.

00:21:38.620 Well, so let me paint the picture again

00:21:40.100 of the moment where we met on the A2.

00:21:42.540 So we actually walked alongside the farmers

00:21:46.620 on their tractors on a dark side road

00:21:50.160 next to the highway

00:21:51.140 where it was almost, you know,

00:21:52.820 like a thief in the night.

00:21:53.980 They were trying to make their way onto the highway,

00:21:56.600 which obviously is not easy to do

00:21:58.560 even in the early hours of the morning.

00:22:00.700 And I thought to myself,

00:22:01.540 how are they going to manage this?

00:22:03.100 How are these tractors going to make their way

00:22:05.000 onto the highway with all these cars passing by?

00:22:07.820 And then from the corner of my eye,

00:22:09.940 I saw a huge convoy rocking up of these truckers

00:22:14.940 who all had joined the protest

00:22:16.820 and made sure that the road was safe

00:22:19.180 for the farmers to go onto.

00:22:22.120 And that, you know, that really moved me.

00:22:23.780 That was such a special moment to witness.

00:22:26.920 I mean, my video on Twitter,

00:22:28.040 you can hear me scream, you know,

00:22:29.840 in joy and excitement

00:22:30.880 because it was such a true moment of solidarity

00:22:33.580 from this one group in society to the other.

00:22:36.560 And at the protest itself,

00:22:38.320 we saw, I mean, yeah, the truckers were there,

00:22:41.300 the farmers were there,

00:22:42.220 all sorts of blue color workers,

00:22:44.240 but also citizens in their cars

00:22:46.340 who either were there on purpose

00:22:48.460 because they wanted to support the farmers

00:22:51.000 or who got stuck in traffic,

00:22:52.820 but who we asked,

00:22:53.860 hey, do you mind being stuck here?

00:22:56.380 And I kid you not,

00:22:57.780 like nine out of 10 times,

00:22:58.860 they were like, absolutely not.

00:23:00.160 I don't mind.

00:23:01.280 I know exactly why these people are protesting

00:23:03.260 and I agree with them.

00:23:04.260 So the support was huge

00:23:06.820 and even going around at the protest,

00:23:09.360 looking at the signs that people were holding.

00:23:11.800 You know, there's a nice word in German,

00:23:13.940 Mittelstand of, yeah,

00:23:15.620 I guess you would translate into the middle class,

00:23:18.540 you know, the working class.

00:23:20.260 The class that I would say

00:23:21.540 is being absolutely obliterated

00:23:23.980 by the globalist agenda

00:23:25.880 under the pretext of this green,

00:23:30.480 you know, green, morally, virtually,

00:23:34.040 I mean, utopia

00:23:35.740 that they're trying to impose on us,

00:23:37.700 which obviously is a dystopian world

00:23:40.080 if you look at the consequences.

00:23:42.220 But so the Mittelstand,

00:23:43.860 the middle class,

00:23:44.980 the hardworking, ordinary people

00:23:46.540 that indeed have become increasingly poor

00:23:49.280 as a result of conscious choices

00:23:52.340 that were made by an elitist government,

00:23:55.800 a globalist government

00:23:56.920 that do not have the best interests

00:23:59.140 of the people at heart

00:24:00.240 and actively work against their interests,

00:24:02.880 I would say that was the general image that I got.

00:24:06.740 I felt like we are witnessing

00:24:08.440 an uprising of ordinary, hardworking citizens

00:24:12.960 who are being branded by the mainstream media,

00:24:15.840 unrightfully so,

00:24:16.780 as far-right extremists,

00:24:17.980 when in fact all they want

00:24:19.500 is just, you know,

00:24:21.120 to be able to exist,

00:24:22.420 provide for their family,

00:24:23.760 and do their job

00:24:24.640 without being crushed by bureaucracy,

00:24:27.860 without being crushed by taxes,

00:24:29.660 without being crushed by debilatory labels.

00:24:32.600 You know, the deplorables,

00:24:34.200 as Hillary Clinton called them,

00:24:35.980 those were the people

00:24:36.840 that were out in the street,

00:24:38.640 and I would say

00:24:39.260 that they were everything but deplorables.

00:24:41.480 I take my hat off for you, you know?

00:24:43.720 I know where my food comes from,

00:24:45.700 and I'm very sad

00:24:47.460 that the people in power

00:24:48.700 seem to have either forgotten it

00:24:50.720 or, and this is obviously

00:24:52.480 the stance that I have taken,

00:24:54.820 know exactly where food comes from,

00:24:56.780 but want to be able to control it

00:24:58.560 in such a manner

00:24:59.320 that they then also can exercise control

00:25:01.540 over the general population.

00:25:03.400 And I think that that's ultimately

00:25:04.600 the goal behind the climate agenda

00:25:08.380 and using the Green Deal

00:25:12.180 and all of these ideas as a pretext

00:25:13.960 in order to gain control over people's lives.

00:25:16.260 And they're creating crises to do it.

00:25:19.240 Because if you have a population

00:25:21.040 that is dependent on you

00:25:22.480 for their food,

00:25:24.140 if they can't eat,

00:25:25.380 you know,

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00:27:06.300 To gain control over them.

00:27:08.000 Yeah, well, it seems to me

00:27:11.340 that it's an easy move

00:27:12.920 for any given bureaucrat

00:27:15.420 to proclaim his or her alliance

00:27:19.620 with the planet,

00:27:20.720 with Blessed Mother Nature,

00:27:22.560 to virtue signal

00:27:23.940 in the direction of a green agenda

00:27:26.240 and to thereby ratchet him or herself

00:27:28.980 not only up the moral hierarchy

00:27:30.840 and pat themselves on the back,

00:27:32.400 but also to use that

00:27:33.640 as a means of advancing their career,

00:27:36.280 even in micro steps.

00:27:39.080 And then you can imagine

00:27:40.040 that the aggregate consequence

00:27:41.960 of that across the entire

00:27:44.120 bureaucratic class,

00:27:45.960 able to use this agenda

00:27:47.780 as a get out of jail free card,

00:27:49.980 as an excuse,

00:27:51.380 an explanation for every failure,

00:27:54.160 we're only pursuing degrowth

00:27:56.160 because of the green agenda.

00:27:57.840 You can imagine that

00:27:58.860 all of that collective activity

00:28:00.860 going on in the background

00:28:02.400 acts in a quasi-conspiratorial manner

00:28:05.560 to put this agenda forward.

00:28:08.240 And then just so that

00:28:10.320 we don't assume

00:28:12.080 that I'm only thinking

00:28:13.340 about quasi-conspiracies,

00:28:15.840 you know, I've looked very carefully

00:28:17.420 at the so-called C40 consortium agenda.

00:28:21.660 And this is a consortium

00:28:22.940 of some of the 40 largest cities

00:28:26.800 on the globe

00:28:29.740 all allied together

00:28:31.740 at the level of local

00:28:33.340 municipal government

00:28:34.880 who are literally pursuing

00:28:36.560 an agenda that includes

00:28:38.320 no more than three articles

00:28:40.480 of clothing per citizen per year,

00:28:43.020 a 95%,

00:28:44.320 95%

00:28:45.940 in private car ownership,

00:28:47.840 which is why we're all being

00:28:49.380 encouraged to produce

00:28:51.160 the electric cars

00:28:52.240 that we won't have enough

00:28:53.380 electricity to run anyways

00:28:54.900 because you don't need electricity

00:28:56.420 if you actually don't get

00:28:57.660 to own a car.

00:28:58.900 And if the goal

00:28:59.680 is a 95% reduction

00:29:01.280 in private automobile ownership,

00:29:03.460 then it doesn't matter 0.88

00:29:04.280 if there's no damn grid. 0.97

00:29:06.220 One short-haul flight 0.97

00:29:08.400 per person every three years,

00:29:10.260 which will completely,

00:29:11.880 obviously decimate

00:29:13.020 the entire travel industry,

00:29:14.960 plus all of the tourism industry

00:29:17.120 that Europe depends on

00:29:18.880 absolutely in all possible manners.

00:29:22.560 And then overall,

00:29:23.780 although this isn't directly

00:29:25.160 from the C40,

00:29:26.660 the fundamental goal

00:29:28.300 of something approximating

00:29:29.540 an 85% reduction

00:29:31.960 in Western living standards,

00:29:33.620 which is the calculation

00:29:34.560 of the green,

00:29:35.540 virtuous,

00:29:36.460 globalist utopians

00:29:37.800 as to what's necessary

00:29:39.320 in order for us

00:29:40.120 to inhabit a green planet.

00:29:43.020 And so all of this means,

00:29:45.320 to me,

00:29:46.160 it means not only

00:29:47.520 are the bureaucrats

00:29:48.360 who are using this

00:29:49.140 get-out-of-jail free card

00:29:50.560 to advance their careers,

00:29:51.760 and the conspiratorialists

00:29:53.220 who are radically left

00:29:54.300 using it explicitly

00:29:55.560 as an agenda.

00:29:56.440 It also means 0.98

00:29:57.480 that the bloody radical leftists 0.85

00:29:59.320 are 100% willing 0.96

00:30:01.620 to sacrifice

00:30:02.520 the working class

00:30:03.880 and the poor

00:30:04.640 to their ambition

00:30:06.040 and their green agenda.

00:30:07.420 Now, that has backfired

00:30:09.440 in the Netherlands.

00:30:10.900 So let's concentrate

00:30:12.080 on that for a moment, Eva.

00:30:13.460 So the last time we talked,

00:30:16.340 it was in the midst

00:30:17.400 of the farmer protest

00:30:19.080 in the Netherlands,

00:30:20.060 and that produced

00:30:20.820 a genuine political upheaval.

00:30:22.760 Now, maybe you could lay out

00:30:24.100 for everybody

00:30:24.640 what happened

00:30:25.340 in the Netherlands,

00:30:26.280 what the situation is now,

00:30:28.100 and what you think

00:30:29.280 that implies

00:30:30.740 for the future

00:30:31.640 of European political activism,

00:30:33.520 political action in general.

00:30:35.880 Right.

00:30:36.300 Well, what I think

00:30:37.620 we can see

00:30:38.380 or what happened

00:30:39.320 in the Netherlands

00:30:39.800 was we had

00:30:40.620 the last major

00:30:41.580 farmers' protests

00:30:42.360 protests in March, right?

00:30:43.980 And then right in March,

00:30:45.480 at the end of March,

00:30:46.220 we had general elections

00:30:47.580 in which the

00:30:48.960 farmer citizens' movement,

00:30:50.600 a relatively new party,

00:30:52.620 got a landslide victory.

00:30:55.120 And then about a month ago,

00:30:57.040 we had general elections

00:30:58.460 for our parliament

00:30:59.400 in which the PVV,

00:31:01.360 which was originally branded

00:31:02.560 as the far-right,

00:31:04.060 again,

00:31:04.680 we can fill a bingo card

00:31:06.280 with this,

00:31:06.940 the far-right party

00:31:07.960 won a staggering

00:31:10.160 number of seats

00:31:12.180 for Dutch standards

00:31:13.180 at least.

00:31:13.780 People have to understand

00:31:14.440 we have a system

00:31:15.880 in which there are

00:31:16.500 multi-parties,

00:31:17.820 you know,

00:31:18.020 we don't have

00:31:18.440 a two-party system,

00:31:19.340 we have plenty,

00:31:20.360 and they always have

00:31:20.920 to form a coalition.

00:31:21.920 But this party,

00:31:22.680 the PVV,

00:31:23.200 the far-right party,

00:31:24.440 won about a fourth

00:31:26.340 of all votes,

00:31:27.420 and now in the polls

00:31:28.660 they're even looking

00:31:29.360 at a third

00:31:30.200 because they're only

00:31:31.220 rising in popularity.

00:31:33.340 And I really think

00:31:34.600 that this farmers' protest,

00:31:36.820 and that's why

00:31:37.360 I think it's so important

00:31:38.460 what you guys

00:31:39.180 are doing here in Germany,

00:31:40.120 and that's why

00:31:40.580 I wanted to be there,

00:31:42.040 is that the farmers

00:31:43.280 are in the vanguard

00:31:45.100 of this political change.

00:31:48.060 It's you guys

00:31:49.040 because, you know,

00:31:50.240 anybody with a functioning

00:31:51.500 set of eyes

00:31:52.720 and brain cells,

00:31:54.040 you know,

00:31:54.500 we talk to you,

00:31:55.540 we go out in the streets,

00:31:56.320 and if you actually see

00:31:58.060 the people that go out there,

00:31:59.860 you see that those

00:32:00.900 are not extremists,

00:32:02.200 those are normal people.

00:32:04.000 And so if you come

00:32:04.940 after those,

00:32:05.940 if you come after the people

00:32:07.000 who provide you with food,

00:32:08.460 that's something that

00:32:09.780 I think most ordinary people

00:32:11.760 can't really comprehend.

00:32:13.180 It's like,

00:32:13.500 why would you come after

00:32:14.920 the people who provide us

00:32:16.200 with food?

00:32:16.840 That doesn't make any sense,

00:32:18.620 you know,

00:32:19.020 and they don't stand for that.

00:32:20.900 So I think that

00:32:21.600 the farmers' uprising

00:32:22.840 in the Netherlands

00:32:23.480 has had a great impact

00:32:25.200 on our elections,

00:32:26.540 so much so now

00:32:27.820 that, yeah,

00:32:28.960 the far-right,

00:32:30.180 quote-unquote,

00:32:30.920 has won.

00:32:32.100 And obviously,

00:32:32.660 we're not out of the woods yet

00:32:34.120 because we still have

00:32:34.980 to form a coalition,

00:32:35.920 but it is a major

00:32:37.360 political shift

00:32:38.520 where I feel like

00:32:39.440 really something

00:32:40.040 in the hearts and minds

00:32:41.520 of the people

00:32:42.200 has changed,

00:32:43.380 where they're no longer

00:32:44.420 afraid of the usual

00:32:45.820 intimidation tactics

00:32:46.980 of the mainstream media

00:32:48.700 and the establishment.

00:32:51.120 You know,

00:32:51.680 like we said,

00:32:52.400 we have nothing

00:32:52.920 to lose anymore.

00:32:54.380 Do you think,

00:32:55.200 Eva,

00:32:55.600 do you think

00:32:56.080 there's a danger?

00:32:58.500 What might be

00:32:59.620 the danger,

00:33:00.140 if any,

00:33:01.560 of normalization

00:33:02.980 of the so-called

00:33:04.240 far-right agenda?

00:33:05.560 I mean,

00:33:06.000 there's two ways

00:33:06.640 of looking at this,

00:33:07.420 right?

00:33:07.640 Because one way

00:33:08.500 is looking at it

00:33:09.260 the way you guys

00:33:10.120 have been looking at it,

00:33:10.900 which is that

00:33:11.420 the terminology

00:33:12.900 of far-right

00:33:13.860 itself has been

00:33:15.520 weaponized,

00:33:16.340 and now that weapon

00:33:17.680 is losing its potency

00:33:19.760 because your claim

00:33:21.500 fundamentally

00:33:22.080 is that it's been

00:33:22.860 applied to

00:33:23.520 the obvious,

00:33:25.400 what would you say,

00:33:26.180 to those who are

00:33:26.820 obviously at the

00:33:27.820 bedrock of society,

00:33:29.100 and that would be

00:33:29.780 certainly the truckers

00:33:31.220 and the farmers,

00:33:32.100 like,

00:33:32.580 self-evidently.

00:33:33.540 And if truckers

00:33:35.160 and farmers

00:33:35.740 just going about

00:33:36.820 their business

00:33:37.420 have become far-right,

00:33:39.020 then the terminology

00:33:39.900 itself loses its meaning.

00:33:41.680 But then you could

00:33:42.260 also say,

00:33:43.000 well,

00:33:43.520 there has been

00:33:44.200 danger in the past

00:33:45.440 presented by

00:33:46.380 the far-right,

00:33:47.540 and the fact that

00:33:48.740 the term no longer

00:33:49.720 has any validity

00:33:51.020 as a weapon

00:33:51.840 also means,

00:33:53.240 in principle,

00:33:53.980 that people who have

00:33:55.120 a genuinely far-right

00:33:56.380 agenda,

00:33:57.260 such as they are,

00:33:58.200 can now use

00:33:58.980 this populist movement

00:34:00.460 to their own advantage

00:34:01.760 to put forward

00:34:02.700 their hypothetically

00:34:03.940 nefarious agenda.

00:34:05.840 And so,

00:34:06.360 I'm wondering,

00:34:07.000 Eva,

00:34:07.140 how you've worked

00:34:08.440 through those

00:34:09.040 complexities in your

00:34:10.080 own mind,

00:34:11.140 what you think

00:34:11.960 far-right means now,

00:34:13.780 and if you see

00:34:14.960 any dangers

00:34:15.800 in this populist

00:34:17.280 uprising,

00:34:18.060 let's say,

00:34:18.560 and the transformation

00:34:19.340 of the political scene

00:34:20.520 that's emerged

00:34:21.120 in consequence.

00:34:22.440 Well,

00:34:22.680 there are a few

00:34:23.140 things to say to that.

00:34:24.160 I think,

00:34:24.600 indeed,

00:34:24.900 the one danger

00:34:25.660 that I could imagine

00:34:26.880 is that because

00:34:27.700 this term is so

00:34:29.140 overused

00:34:30.220 and has become

00:34:30.920 so trivialized

00:34:32.060 in that sense,

00:34:33.140 it's like,

00:34:33.700 okay,

00:34:34.060 if there is

00:34:34.940 a far-right subgroup

00:34:36.440 that wants to do

00:34:37.320 all sorts of evil things,

00:34:38.720 then maybe we wouldn't

00:34:40.040 take it as seriously

00:34:40.960 anymore because

00:34:41.580 it's so overused

00:34:42.380 on ordinary people

00:34:43.260 with valid,

00:34:44.700 you know,

00:34:45.780 totally justified opinions.

00:34:47.940 I don't see them,

00:34:49.240 though.

00:34:49.700 I don't see them

00:34:50.940 out on the streets.

00:34:51.740 I don't meet them.

00:34:53.020 So,

00:34:53.620 what I have personally

00:34:54.960 done in my own life,

00:34:56.200 you know,

00:34:56.460 I've had my fair share

00:34:58.680 of slander

00:34:59.160 and the Dutch

00:35:00.740 mainstream media

00:35:01.440 when I started out

00:35:02.480 in my political career

00:35:03.560 called me

00:35:04.440 the shield maiden

00:35:05.180 of the far-right.

00:35:06.660 Well,

00:35:06.780 I was 23

00:35:07.400 when that happened

00:35:08.180 to me

00:35:08.520 and I was terrified

00:35:09.260 because I thought

00:35:10.000 to myself,

00:35:10.620 well,

00:35:11.040 okay,

00:35:11.440 I can forget

00:35:12.200 a normal life.

00:35:13.160 I can forget

00:35:13.700 ever having a job.

00:35:14.840 Like,

00:35:14.980 Google never forgets.

00:35:16.340 So,

00:35:16.560 if somebody Googles you

00:35:17.420 and the first thing

00:35:17.940 you see about you

00:35:18.580 is shield maiden 0.96

00:35:19.040 of the far-right,

00:35:19.660 well,

00:35:19.800 that's not good.

00:35:20.980 But I've now

00:35:21.640 come to the conclusion

00:35:22.520 that,

00:35:23.040 you know,

00:35:23.920 there is no point

00:35:24.840 in being afraid

00:35:26.120 of a label

00:35:26.760 that doesn't actually

00:35:27.620 apply to you.

00:35:28.500 So,

00:35:28.780 I just kind of

00:35:29.420 run with it now.

00:35:30.320 It's in my bio

00:35:31.060 on X

00:35:32.100 because I think

00:35:33.040 it's funny

00:35:33.460 and I want to show

00:35:34.400 to other people,

00:35:35.820 don't be intimidated

00:35:36.800 by people

00:35:37.840 who use that label

00:35:38.900 to silence you

00:35:39.880 because nowadays,

00:35:41.340 to me,

00:35:41.940 what I find

00:35:42.760 is that they put

00:35:43.460 far-right

00:35:44.020 on just about anybody

00:35:45.460 who is somewhat

00:35:46.600 right-wing to the center,

00:35:47.900 who has conservative views,

00:35:49.540 maybe doesn't,

00:35:50.180 you know,

00:35:50.440 cut their hair short

00:35:51.840 and dyed purple

00:35:52.660 and scream 1.00

00:35:53.120 destroy the patriarchy, 0.65

00:35:54.900 people who oppose

00:35:56.580 mass immigration,

00:35:57.980 which clearly

00:35:59.300 doesn't have

00:36:00.040 the best effect on

00:36:00.920 or didn't have

00:36:01.480 the best effect

00:36:02.000 on Europe.

00:36:02.900 And so,

00:36:03.240 if you have those,

00:36:04.640 I would say,

00:36:05.260 completely legitimate,

00:36:07.120 valid opinions,

00:36:08.660 you earn that title

00:36:09.660 nowadays

00:36:10.140 with the mainstream media.

00:36:11.140 So,

00:36:11.300 the best thing

00:36:11.820 you can do

00:36:12.460 is stop caring

00:36:13.900 because if you stop

00:36:15.060 being afraid of it,

00:36:16.140 then they lose

00:36:16.840 their power over you

00:36:17.780 and we can demand

00:36:18.560 actual change,

00:36:19.860 which nowadays

00:36:21.180 would be labeled

00:36:21.840 as far-right,

00:36:22.560 but 30 years ago

00:36:24.540 would be just

00:36:25.100 a Christian democratic ideal.

00:36:27.160 I've certainly seen

00:36:28.720 in Canada

00:36:29.460 and elsewhere

00:36:31.140 that everything right

00:36:34.580 now definitely

00:36:35.720 includes everything

00:36:36.840 that was even

00:36:38.100 10 years ago

00:36:39.020 regarded as

00:36:39.780 classically liberal.

00:36:41.480 And everything far-right

00:36:43.040 includes everything

00:36:44.360 that 10 years ago

00:36:45.520 would have been regarded

00:36:46.560 even as moderately

00:36:47.940 conservative.

00:36:49.420 And so,

00:36:49.900 and given that

00:36:50.560 the radical left

00:36:52.260 actually occupies

00:36:53.340 only about 7%

00:36:54.640 of the population,

00:36:56.220 and I think

00:36:56.720 that's probably

00:36:57.400 an overestimate,

00:36:58.580 that really means

00:36:59.380 that 93%

00:37:00.740 of the population

00:37:01.840 have been thrown in

00:37:02.700 by them,

00:37:03.440 by them,

00:37:04.280 by the way,

00:37:05.020 has been thrown

00:37:06.000 into the category

00:37:06.780 either of right

00:37:07.640 or far-right.

00:37:08.500 Now,

00:37:08.940 you would think,

00:37:09.780 Anthony,

00:37:10.160 that this would be

00:37:10.880 a particularly

00:37:11.860 significant problem

00:37:13.400 in Germany.

00:37:14.620 And so,

00:37:15.160 the fact that

00:37:16.200 ordinary people

00:37:17.420 have chosen

00:37:18.620 to rise up

00:37:19.480 nonetheless

00:37:19.920 in spite of being

00:37:21.520 labelled

00:37:22.000 with these epithets

00:37:23.060 indicates in all

00:37:24.600 probability

00:37:25.140 that something

00:37:25.740 of dead seriousness

00:37:26.700 is going on.

00:37:27.720 And so,

00:37:28.440 what is it

00:37:29.580 that you guys

00:37:30.280 who are protesting

00:37:31.080 want?

00:37:32.460 What do you think

00:37:33.560 your protest

00:37:34.180 has accomplished

00:37:35.100 and where do you

00:37:36.520 think this is going

00:37:37.480 in the immediate

00:37:38.180 and longer-term future

00:37:39.420 in this rapidly

00:37:41.480 de-industrialising

00:37:42.760 and failing

00:37:43.400 German state?

00:37:45.180 Well,

00:37:45.760 the first thing

00:37:46.340 we want

00:37:46.880 is just

00:37:47.480 politicians

00:37:49.140 who have

00:37:50.020 common sense.

00:37:52.360 It's very simple.

00:37:54.320 And let me just

00:37:55.840 go back

00:37:56.240 one thing

00:37:57.080 about this

00:37:57.560 green agenda

00:37:58.620 we have.

00:37:59.380 In Germany,

00:38:00.480 everybody's

00:38:01.640 trying to get

00:38:02.380 rid of CO2.

00:38:04.240 So,

00:38:04.920 CO2

00:38:05.460 is the worst

00:38:06.780 thing.

00:38:07.080 It will kill us.

00:38:08.080 And we have

00:38:08.580 young people

00:38:09.760 gluing themselves

00:38:11.340 onto the street,

00:38:12.780 especially here

00:38:13.600 in Berlin

00:38:14.180 to demonstrate

00:38:17.080 that we have

00:38:18.120 to cut down

00:38:18.740 on CO2.

00:38:20.180 Otherwise,

00:38:20.720 they call themselves

00:38:21.460 last generation.

00:38:23.020 Otherwise,

00:38:23.460 we will die.

00:38:24.980 You know? 0.99

00:38:25.360 It's so silly. 0.97

00:38:26.660 And the media 0.96

00:38:27.880 is honestly,

00:38:29.320 they're cutting down

00:38:30.000 a bit on it now,

00:38:30.800 but it's still

00:38:31.700 onto it.

00:38:32.460 And this is

00:38:33.320 the main agenda,

00:38:35.120 especially to us

00:38:35.980 farmers,

00:38:37.100 because we have

00:38:38.260 to cut down

00:38:38.880 on CO2.

00:38:39.540 And that's why

00:38:40.020 this green deal,

00:38:41.100 these four things

00:38:42.120 I told you about,

00:38:43.600 and especially

00:38:44.240 the main reason

00:38:45.300 what Eva just 0.93

00:38:46.140 described,

00:38:47.020 to tax our diesel.

00:38:49.340 And I only live

00:38:51.200 about 150 kilometers

00:38:52.640 away from Holland.

00:38:54.580 In Holland,

00:38:55.420 or in Belgium,

00:38:56.580 or in France,

00:38:58.080 they don't tax

00:38:59.240 diesel at all.

00:39:00.440 So,

00:39:01.020 it's an unfair

00:39:02.160 thing for us

00:39:04.120 in Europe

00:39:04.780 to compare.

00:39:05.500 We can't compete.

00:39:06.780 Obviously not.

00:39:07.500 And anybody

00:39:09.420 should know

00:39:10.320 that we in Germany,

00:39:12.160 our farmers,

00:39:13.360 use one liter diesel

00:39:15.160 so efficient

00:39:16.580 like nobody else

00:39:17.680 can do it

00:39:18.300 on this planet.

00:39:19.020 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:39:19.900 So, obviously,

00:39:20.520 if we don't produce

00:39:22.100 the food,

00:39:23.260 we will have to get it

00:39:24.180 from somewhere else.

00:39:25.520 And we had

00:39:26.060 some,

00:39:27.320 a very good

00:39:28.340 passage

00:39:30.800 last year

00:39:31.640 in an

00:39:32.680 Austrian newspaper,

00:39:34.720 and they said

00:39:35.400 the green deal

00:39:36.600 from the European

00:39:37.620 Union

00:39:37.980 is a bad deal

00:39:38.860 for the planet.

00:39:39.560 Because if we do

00:39:41.020 these things

00:39:41.920 that I told you

00:39:42.740 a few minutes ago,

00:39:44.240 we will have to,

00:39:46.000 we need

00:39:46.900 8 million

00:39:48.340 hectares

00:39:49.720 somewhere else

00:39:51.000 on the world

00:39:51.680 to feed us,

00:39:53.260 which will mean

00:39:54.100 we use,

00:39:55.420 we have to use

00:39:56.140 big ships

00:39:56.740 to get the food

00:39:58.720 to us,

00:39:59.260 to Germany,

00:39:59.740 which is bad

00:40:00.240 for the environment

00:40:01.020 because we will

00:40:02.100 pollute the air

00:40:03.140 with CO2,

00:40:04.040 which will kill us,

00:40:04.800 and we will 0.72

00:40:06.240 take poor

00:40:07.220 people food

00:40:08.460 away.

00:40:09.900 And anybody

00:40:10.740 who says,

00:40:11.920 especially from

00:40:12.380 the Green Party,

00:40:13.360 who says,

00:40:13.820 well, it's a good

00:40:14.260 idea to do

00:40:14.740 the Green Deal,

00:40:15.900 he should reflect

00:40:16.700 himself and think,

00:40:17.860 no, it can't be.

00:40:18.980 It's absolutely

00:40:19.680 contrary to that

00:40:21.700 sense or that

00:40:23.500 meaning we want

00:40:24.560 to do,

00:40:24.980 to protect

00:40:26.080 the planet,

00:40:27.880 to get rid of

00:40:28.660 CO2.

00:40:29.360 You're doing the

00:40:30.000 opposite,

00:40:30.820 by far.

00:40:31.580 And people

00:40:32.740 more and more

00:40:34.000 realize this

00:40:35.040 nonsense we're

00:40:36.320 doing,

00:40:37.220 and they're fed

00:40:38.240 up of it

00:40:38.660 because it's

00:40:39.220 costing us

00:40:39.700 money,

00:40:40.100 it's costing

00:40:40.480 us our

00:40:42.060 economy,

00:40:42.720 like I told

00:40:43.240 you.

00:40:44.060 And I mean,

00:40:44.560 it's the same,

00:40:45.280 we cut down,

00:40:48.680 I mean,

00:40:48.960 we got a lot

00:40:50.100 of gas from

00:40:50.700 Russia until

00:40:51.780 the Ukraine

00:40:52.320 war.

00:40:53.300 And it was

00:40:53.780 quite cheap

00:40:55.140 for us,

00:40:55.540 which was good

00:40:56.000 for our

00:40:56.320 economy.

00:40:57.000 So we cut

00:40:57.580 down,

00:40:57.960 we said,

00:40:58.280 well,

00:40:58.520 we don't want

00:40:59.220 it anymore.

00:40:59.520 By the way,

00:41:00.780 let me explain

00:41:01.640 this so

00:41:01.980 anybody from

00:41:03.260 outside Germany

00:41:04.780 realizes this.

00:41:06.080 Spain,

00:41:06.720 for example,

00:41:07.240 which is a

00:41:07.820 member of the

00:41:08.220 European Union,

00:41:09.540 imports double

00:41:11.020 the size of

00:41:12.440 gas from

00:41:13.180 Russia than 0.94

00:41:14.360 before the

00:41:15.220 Ukraine war.

00:41:16.580 So, 0.79

00:41:17.060 which is silly

00:41:18.060 because,

00:41:18.600 I mean,

00:41:18.920 we all have

00:41:19.400 the same rights

00:41:19.960 in the European

00:41:20.360 Union,

00:41:21.180 but we and

00:41:21.880 our government

00:41:22.520 says,

00:41:22.860 no,

00:41:22.980 we don't want

00:41:23.400 it because

00:41:23.800 we don't want

00:41:24.400 to give

00:41:24.680 Putin money.

00:41:27.020 And so,

00:41:28.300 even though I

00:41:29.200 live in a

00:41:30.200 state which

00:41:30.760 is called

00:41:31.600 Lower Saxony,

00:41:32.420 it's in the

00:41:32.760 middle of

00:41:33.000 Germany,

00:41:33.760 we have

00:41:34.420 gas,

00:41:36.240 we could

00:41:36.800 frack,

00:41:37.720 is it

00:41:37.960 fracking?

00:41:38.720 We could

00:41:39.060 frack,

00:41:40.100 we could

00:41:40.760 frack gas

00:41:42.200 for 30

00:41:43.340 years for

00:41:44.340 the German

00:41:44.740 economy.

00:41:45.620 We don't

00:41:46.160 want to do

00:41:46.620 it because

00:41:46.980 it's bad

00:41:47.400 for the

00:41:47.720 environment.

00:41:48.620 We rather

00:41:49.300 buy it

00:41:50.600 from the

00:41:51.000 US or

00:41:51.980 from the

00:41:53.080 Middle East

00:41:53.660 and pay

00:41:54.740 five times

00:41:55.640 as much.

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00:43:01.520 slash jbp.

00:43:05.420 And we are

00:43:06.480 dependent on

00:43:08.680 governments from

00:43:10.780 the Middle East

00:43:12.320 or from America,

00:43:13.480 from the United

00:43:14.200 States, and then

00:43:15.580 we have to

00:43:16.360 import it,

00:43:19.540 and it's so 0.97

00:43:20.500 silly, which 0.97

00:43:21.560 is obviously 0.99

00:43:22.080 bad for the

00:43:22.720 environment, but

00:43:23.780 they say it's

00:43:24.460 green, you know,

00:43:25.180 it's so, it's, I

00:43:26.260 mean.

00:43:26.540 We're doing the

00:43:27.240 exact thing.

00:43:27.680 You're doing the

00:43:28.180 exact thing.

00:43:28.980 And it's so.

00:43:29.900 Well, so are we

00:43:31.640 in Canada.

00:43:32.480 So Quebec, the

00:43:33.860 province of Quebec

00:43:34.820 in Canada, has

00:43:36.340 enough natural gas

00:43:37.520 in Quebec to

00:43:39.160 supply all of

00:43:40.000 Quebec for 200

00:43:40.960 years or the

00:43:42.240 EU for 50, and 0.58

00:43:44.600 they refuse to

00:43:45.540 frack any of it

00:43:46.600 because fracking is

00:43:47.700 so dangerous.

00:43:48.580 And by the way, I

00:43:49.400 grew up in

00:43:49.860 northern Alberta,

00:43:50.500 and they had

00:43:51.340 fracked there

00:43:51.940 for like six

00:43:54.240 decades with no

00:43:55.940 problem whatsoever.

00:43:57.760 And so I know all

00:43:58.720 of that is absolute 0.81

00:43:59.480 bloody nonsense, but 0.80

00:44:01.060 the advantages of

00:44:03.040 this green virtue

00:44:03.880 signaling at the

00:44:05.860 local bureaucratic

00:44:06.860 level are so

00:44:07.820 astounding that all 1.00

00:44:09.740 of this idiocy can 1.00

00:44:11.000 pass by as green 1.00

00:44:12.700 legislation, even

00:44:13.660 though it flies in

00:44:14.520 the face of both

00:44:15.340 common sense and

00:44:16.180 fact.

00:44:16.720 So I know for a

00:44:18.000 fact, for example,

00:44:18.920 that not only is

00:44:19.960 Germany, electricity

00:44:21.320 in Germany, something

00:44:22.380 approximating five

00:44:23.620 times as expensive

00:44:24.840 as it should be,

00:44:26.300 which, given the

00:44:27.460 dependence of

00:44:28.120 industry and

00:44:29.100 everything else, all

00:44:30.100 of commerce on

00:44:30.840 cheap energy is a

00:44:31.740 bloody catastrophe, I

00:44:33.140 know as well that you

00:44:34.240 guys are producing

00:44:35.020 more carbon dioxide

00:44:36.100 and more waste per

00:44:37.620 unit of energy than

00:44:38.580 you were ten years

00:44:39.360 ago because you

00:44:40.300 shut down the

00:44:40.920 bloody nuclear

00:44:41.520 plants and have

00:44:42.540 substituted instead

00:44:43.800 lignite burning coal

00:44:45.940 plants, which is

00:44:47.340 like utterly insane.

00:44:48.840 So just so that

00:44:50.060 everybody watching

00:44:50.840 and listening is

00:44:51.780 clear here, not

00:44:53.840 only are these

00:44:54.640 green policies

00:44:55.820 devastating to the

00:44:57.440 working class and

00:44:58.280 to the poor and to

00:44:59.060 the economic

00:44:59.580 stability of Europe

00:45:00.620 as a whole and

00:45:01.860 then to the

00:45:02.780 stability of the

00:45:03.440 world in general,

00:45:04.540 they are

00:45:04.960 counterproductive by

00:45:06.760 the standards put

00:45:07.820 forward by the

00:45:08.640 green advocates

00:45:09.320 themselves in that,

00:45:10.960 as you pointed

00:45:11.520 out, well, first of

00:45:12.680 all, you have to 0.99

00:45:13.460 import your bloody 0.94

00:45:14.240 power at a

00:45:15.000 tremendously high

00:45:15.820 cost and then

00:45:17.080 you're going to

00:45:17.520 shut down local

00:45:18.700 production of food

00:45:20.340 in favour of

00:45:21.320 imports and it

00:45:23.160 was only a few

00:45:24.240 years ago that

00:45:25.160 all the green

00:45:26.040 revolutionaries were

00:45:27.060 jumping up and

00:45:27.700 down screaming

00:45:28.240 about the fact that

00:45:29.700 you should buy

00:45:30.720 local exactly to

00:45:32.680 decrease the kind

00:45:33.460 of transportation

00:45:34.100 costs that you're

00:45:35.680 pointing to.

00:45:36.940 And so it's such

00:45:39.220 a mystery because

00:45:40.320 the policies that are

00:45:42.160 being pursued,

00:45:42.680 don't even suffice

00:45:44.720 to service the

00:45:46.160 goals that are

00:45:46.960 hypothetically

00:45:47.560 trumpeted by the

00:45:48.580 formulators of the

00:45:49.520 policies themselves.

00:45:50.920 It's a bloody

00:45:51.600 miracle, miracle of 1.00

00:45:52.920 stupidity and 1.00

00:45:53.800 blindness. 1.00

00:45:54.560 I've given this so

00:45:55.720 much thought because

00:45:56.540 so many people have

00:45:57.320 asked me, why, you

00:45:58.860 know, why would they

00:45:59.560 do this?

00:46:00.000 It doesn't make

00:46:00.520 sense.

00:46:01.040 Explain it.

00:46:01.700 You know, why

00:46:02.880 would you come

00:46:03.440 after the most

00:46:04.460 hardworking sector,

00:46:06.380 the most lucrative

00:46:07.000 sector, the people

00:46:08.460 that provide you

00:46:09.100 with food?

00:46:10.000 Why would you

00:46:10.820 shut down your

00:46:11.460 nuclear plants if

00:46:12.540 you are to import 0.62

00:46:13.680 electricity for, I

00:46:14.620 don't know how much

00:46:15.200 more the price?

00:46:16.360 Why, why, why?

00:46:17.780 And I think it was

00:46:18.860 Carl Jung actually who

00:46:19.960 said, if you can't

00:46:21.160 understand someone's

00:46:23.080 actions, you have to

00:46:24.600 look at the

00:46:25.160 consequences and

00:46:26.240 infer the motive.

00:46:27.640 And that's what I've

00:46:28.700 done with all of this.

00:46:30.300 If the consequences of

00:46:31.740 their policies are that

00:46:34.260 we become poorer, you

00:46:36.300 know, we, not they,

00:46:37.440 obviously, but we, if

00:46:39.600 we become poorer, we

00:46:41.380 become more dependent

00:46:42.320 on them, we, you

00:46:44.680 know, we basically

00:46:45.520 essentially would

00:46:46.460 starve if this is put

00:46:48.100 through and we don't

00:46:48.960 have the financial

00:46:49.640 means anymore to

00:46:50.840 import our food.

00:46:52.320 And, well, I don't

00:46:53.680 know, God forbid a

00:46:54.440 disaster happens, we've

00:46:55.420 outsourced everything,

00:46:56.720 you know, we could be

00:46:57.540 in real trouble.

00:46:59.180 Well, if those are the

00:47:00.100 consequences, then

00:47:01.240 apparently that's the

00:47:02.540 motive.

00:47:03.080 I maybe have become

00:47:03.960 too cynical, but I

00:47:05.420 find it very difficult

00:47:06.480 to explain it any

00:47:09.300 other way because this

00:47:10.360 is not a one-time

00:47:11.280 mistake.

00:47:12.220 You know, these people

00:47:12.880 are, the net zero

00:47:14.440 scam, and I would 0.54

00:47:15.720 really call it a scam,

00:47:17.380 is something that

00:47:18.580 It's a criminal

00:47:19.260 scam.

00:47:20.060 Yes, well,

00:47:20.740 actually, yeah,

00:47:21.940 it's not just a scam.

00:47:23.440 It is criminal, and I

00:47:25.320 think that it is of the

00:47:26.140 worst type of injustice

00:47:27.520 if a government and the

00:47:28.980 people are supposed to

00:47:29.860 represent us, you know,

00:47:31.400 talking about democracy,

00:47:33.100 liberal democracy,

00:47:33.860 and all, if those

00:47:35.200 people turn their backs

00:47:36.240 on their own population

00:47:37.520 and not just turn their

00:47:38.760 backs, but actively,

00:47:39.960 again, go against their

00:47:41.020 interests and allow them

00:47:43.300 essentially, if things go

00:47:44.440 wrong, to become poor

00:47:45.800 and to starve.

00:47:46.940 And I can't see, you

00:47:49.120 know, I see true evil

00:47:50.760 behind these acts.

00:47:51.800 I don't just see

00:47:52.860 incompetence anymore.

00:47:54.480 It's worse than that,

00:47:55.540 Ava.

00:47:55.740 It's worse than that,

00:47:56.560 even, because I was

00:47:58.080 speaking with someone

00:47:58.860 the other day, one of my

00:47:59.880 podcast guests, who said

00:48:01.180 that their sampling has

00:48:02.380 indicated that young

00:48:03.360 people now think about

00:48:05.060 climate apocalypse three

00:48:06.460 or four times a day.

00:48:08.020 They're literally obsessed

00:48:09.120 by it, and we know

00:48:09.900 perfectly well that that

00:48:11.640 demoralizing insistence

00:48:14.040 that all human striving is

00:48:15.600 planet-destroying, you

00:48:17.160 know, patriarchal ambition

00:48:18.420 and has to be brought to a

00:48:19.620 halt, not only does it risk

00:48:21.220 economic catastrophe,

00:48:23.740 really right down to the

00:48:25.280 fundamental level in the

00:48:26.400 way that we've been

00:48:27.160 describing, but it's also

00:48:28.620 demoralized an entire

00:48:30.020 generation of people and

00:48:31.240 made them afraid, terrified,

00:48:33.580 like Chicken Little, that

00:48:34.540 the sky is falling, even

00:48:36.700 when the IPCC itself, who

00:48:39.540 are hypothetically the

00:48:40.900 people that, you know, are

00:48:42.060 on top of the appropriate

00:48:43.200 data, have indicated

00:48:44.280 nowhere in their

00:48:45.820 documentation that we're

00:48:47.000 facing anything

00:48:47.760 approximating a true

00:48:48.820 emergency.

00:48:50.360 And so, well, and so that

00:48:52.200 does beg the question, as

00:48:53.680 you said, you know, just

00:48:54.740 exactly what the hell's

00:48:55.760 going on, and I think that

00:48:56.980 your method of inferring

00:48:58.180 the motivation is actually

00:48:59.980 the case.

00:49:00.760 I think the proximal cause

00:49:03.800 is the fact that, just as

00:49:05.840 in Nazi Germany, let's say,

00:49:07.780 that any old mid-level

00:49:10.100 bureaucrat could ratchet

00:49:11.480 himself up the hierarchy by

00:49:13.260 identifying, at least in

00:49:15.040 principle, with the

00:49:15.860 overarching Nazi ideology.

00:49:17.580 It's absolutely the case

00:49:18.840 with these bureaucrats who

00:49:20.120 bear no immediate economic 1.00

00:49:22.200 consequences for the idiocy of 1.00

00:49:24.320 their actions. 1.00

00:49:25.180 If they put forward this

00:49:26.500 green agenda and they're

00:49:27.640 celebrated by the

00:49:28.580 irradiate peers for doing

00:49:29.720 so, that's definitely good

00:49:31.400 in the immediate present

00:49:32.460 for their career

00:49:33.320 development and their, you

00:49:34.760 know, their self-aggrandizing

00:49:37.380 moral proclamations of

00:49:40.760 virtuous self.

00:49:42.820 And in the aggregate, we get

00:49:44.120 exactly this sort of thing.

00:49:45.760 Anthony, what consequences

00:49:48.020 do you think that these

00:49:49.680 protests are going to have,

00:49:51.680 have had?

00:49:53.100 Let's start with that.

00:49:54.240 What consequences have they

00:49:55.420 had?

00:49:55.700 And what do you think is

00:49:56.720 going to unfold?

00:49:57.520 Because this is a relatively

00:49:58.660 new government in Germany,

00:50:00.100 and it isn't obvious to me

00:50:01.700 that it's going to fall apart

00:50:03.020 in consequence, as the

00:50:04.360 government in the

00:50:05.340 Netherlands did.

00:50:06.380 Certainly, the Canadian

00:50:07.400 government sailed right

00:50:09.180 through the trucker

00:50:10.120 protest as if it never even

00:50:12.260 happened.

00:50:12.780 And the probability that

00:50:14.360 Justin Trudeau is going to

00:50:15.980 rule with his velvet fist for

00:50:17.740 the next year appears to be

00:50:19.120 extremely high.

00:50:20.340 So, what do you think is going

00:50:21.840 to happen in Germany as a

00:50:23.860 consequence of these protests?

00:50:25.780 Well, it's very hard to

00:50:26.680 predict.

00:50:27.920 The government didn't learn

00:50:30.400 its lesson yet.

00:50:31.640 That's obvious.

00:50:32.680 We had our finance minister on

00:50:34.680 stage today, and it was

00:50:36.500 obvious he didn't learn

00:50:37.580 anything about our actions we

00:50:40.220 did.

00:50:41.000 But what we already achieved is

00:50:44.260 that we are, like I said in

00:50:46.120 the beginning, so united like I

00:50:48.300 honestly never thought we could

00:50:50.020 be if I said that.

00:50:51.620 I mean, I would say 80% and

00:50:54.820 this is an official poll of our

00:50:57.280 mainstream media, 80% says they

00:50:59.220 are behind our actions, behind

00:51:01.840 our, well it's not a strike, it's

00:51:03.620 a protest, and that's amazing.

00:51:06.760 That's honestly amazing,

00:51:07.760 especially getting in front of

00:51:10.700 this agenda, what we were

00:51:12.520 talking about, and like I said,

00:51:13.880 people are realizing that now,

00:51:15.240 and they're realizing it for one

00:51:16.520 reason.

00:51:17.320 They believed everything, or

00:51:18.760 most of them believed all this

00:51:20.220 agenda of green, we have to save 0.97

00:51:21.780 CO2 to save our lives and all that

00:51:23.620 nonsense, but now it's costing

00:51:26.860 them money.

00:51:28.260 Everybody's paying for this, and

00:51:30.100 we are paying a big price.

00:51:32.020 And we didn't talk about even, I

00:51:34.720 mean, with the war in Ukraine,

00:51:38.380 obviously Ukraine produces a hell of 1.00

00:51:41.940 a lot of wheat and crop for the

00:51:43.840 poorest in the world.

00:51:44.700 And if you, if you look into where

00:51:47.080 the wheat, if it gets out of the

00:51:49.520 Black Sea region, goes to, it mainly

00:51:51.400 goes to European countries, Turkey

00:51:53.700 and China.

00:51:54.880 It doesn't really go to Africa where

00:51:56.620 it should, where it should go.

00:51:58.080 And it comes to us.

00:52:01.240 Poland, Hungary, they said, we don't

00:52:04.780 want it.

00:52:05.280 They shut their borders.

00:52:06.760 So it's coming straight through to

00:52:08.360 Germany.

00:52:09.420 And the Danish government only

00:52:11.720 recently checked if it's contaminated

00:52:16.440 with chemicals which are not allowed

00:52:21.680 in the European Union.

00:52:23.280 And they said, yes, it is.

00:52:24.500 So it's official.

00:52:25.880 But nobody cares.

00:52:27.660 So we are not getting the price we

00:52:30.740 should get for our crop, our grains. 0.80

00:52:32.780 And we are getting overflown by grain

00:52:38.760 from the Ukraine, which is really bad.

00:52:42.360 I mean, obviously it's bad.

00:52:43.660 You know, first of all, poor countries

00:52:45.540 aren't getting it.

00:52:46.480 We can't get rid of ours.

00:52:48.220 And the government's even paying some

00:52:51.500 parts of the transport to Germany.

00:52:54.420 So they are obviously using our tax

00:52:56.260 money to make sure we get a bad price

00:53:00.280 for our crop.

00:53:01.440 Well, I think we were already talking

00:53:03.420 about how demoralizing this agenda is.

00:53:06.100 And food, of course, if you want to

00:53:08.300 demoralize a people, I mean, it's done 0.96

00:53:10.460 by feeding them bad food as well.

00:53:13.520 I mean, Jordan, you know, I don't have

00:53:14.820 to tell you about this, but the

00:53:16.100 importance of good meat, of healthy

00:53:19.460 animal fats, it's huge.

00:53:22.480 And if you make people feel like the

00:53:24.660 only thing that they deserve is, you

00:53:27.040 know, bad, bad wheat or bugs,

00:53:29.780 insects or synthetic meat, you know,

00:53:32.900 feed, literally food that will make you

00:53:35.440 weak.

00:53:36.760 I think that says something about our

00:53:39.260 establishment.

00:53:40.220 You know, it says something about the way

00:53:41.860 that we are governed.

00:53:42.780 It says something about the way that we are

00:53:44.180 ruled, that we are supposed to live as if

00:53:47.800 we are livestock that, you know, it can

00:53:50.460 only eat insects or basically, you know,

00:53:53.580 trash.

00:53:54.660 And who produce carbon dioxide simply 0.99

00:53:57.920 by breathing, let's say, and produce

00:54:01.140 children and produce children who are a

00:54:03.260 net burden on the ecosphere, et cetera,

00:54:05.720 et cetera, and want to travel and want to

00:54:08.240 buy things and want to have a standard

00:54:09.780 of living.

00:54:10.480 Yeah.

00:54:10.720 How dare you want to have a nice life?

00:54:13.060 Absolutely.

00:54:13.960 How dare you?

00:54:14.800 Absolutely.

00:54:15.520 When everything you do does nothing but

00:54:17.780 muck up the planet and mar the future.

00:54:19.980 Yeah, it is an absolutely bloody dismal view

00:54:22.420 of humanity, that's for sure, and bordering

00:54:24.660 on murderous.

00:54:25.540 Yeah, it's Malthusian, to say the least. 0.86

00:54:28.260 And I mean, you know, we're kidding

00:54:29.440 about it, we're joking now, but there was

00:54:31.000 an actual headline not too long ago in

00:54:33.440 the press here in the UK and in Europe

00:54:35.100 quoting a study that said that breathing

00:54:37.400 causes climate change.

00:54:39.300 Yeah, right.

00:54:39.720 Well, you know, what's the consequence of

00:54:41.260 that then?

00:54:41.760 Do you want me to stop breathing?

00:54:43.520 That's the only answer to the problem

00:54:45.840 then, right?

00:54:46.360 So, it's, yes, it's absolute content.

00:54:50.840 So, you know, the human progress people

00:54:55.140 have documented the fact that every baby

00:54:57.380 born will produce seven times the economic

00:55:00.160 resources that every baby consumes.

00:55:03.180 And so, the idea, that's the historical

00:55:04.800 average at the moment.

00:55:05.960 The idea that more people means more poverty

00:55:09.340 and more environmental degradation is not

00:55:11.180 only a lie, it's an anti-truth.

00:55:13.540 And here's another, so not only, so imagine,

00:55:15.720 first of all, if every baby consumed more

00:55:18.320 than it produced, then people on average

00:55:21.580 would starve.

00:55:22.620 And on average, a far smaller proportion

00:55:25.340 of people are starving than has ever

00:55:26.940 been the case in the entire history of

00:55:28.600 the planet.

00:55:29.280 We're going to peak out at about nine

00:55:30.920 billion, and it's crystal bloody clear

00:55:33.140 that we could manage that.

00:55:34.300 And then there's going to be a precipitous

00:55:36.060 decline.

00:55:36.940 That's the demographic outlook, and that's

00:55:38.940 within this century.

00:55:40.380 Then, here's some, so the idea that each

00:55:43.240 person born produces less than they consume

00:55:46.620 is a complete bloody lie.

00:55:47.880 It's out by a factor of seven. 0.85

00:55:49.780 And then, here's the clincher.

00:55:51.700 This is so staggering.

00:55:54.300 The best data indicates quite clearly that

00:55:56.620 if you can get poor people, so absolutely

00:55:59.300 poor people, not relatively poor people, so

00:56:01.580 people in danger of food privation, let's

00:56:03.800 say, and lacking opportunity for their

00:56:06.060 children, if you can get them up to a point

00:56:08.260 where they are producing $5,000 US GDP per

00:56:13.760 year, they immediately start to take a

00:56:16.540 medium and long-term view of, let's say,

00:56:19.740 environmental stability and sustainability,

00:56:21.720 because they have enough wherewithal and

00:56:24.200 enough resources at their disposal so that

00:56:26.480 they don't have to be in a permanent state

00:56:29.000 of crisis that incentivizes them to burn up and

00:56:32.840 consume everything around them.

00:56:34.200 So, the best data indicates very, very clearly

00:56:37.180 that if we drove energy prices down or allowed

00:56:40.240 them to decline, as we could if we used

00:56:42.360 intelligent nuclear technology, for example, we

00:56:45.000 could raise the planetary standard of living to

00:56:47.220 the point where everybody locally would start to

00:56:50.080 become concerned about environmental issues and

00:56:52.600 act naturally in a manner that would provide for a

00:56:55.620 more sustainable world.

00:56:57.220 Instead, we're doing the opposite to virtue signal 1.00

00:56:59.660 stupidly. 0.99

00:57:00.300 We're cranking energy prices up, claiming that all 1.00

00:57:02.980 the industrial activity has to cease, making poor

00:57:06.120 people even poorer and putting them at risk of

00:57:08.400 starvation.

00:57:10.000 All that's going to do, as it's already started to

00:57:12.520 do in Germany, is make both the economy and the

00:57:15.600 environment worse, and it's going to breed, well,

00:57:18.600 more and more uprising of the sort that we're seeing

00:57:20.660 everywhere.

00:57:21.380 You couldn't imagine a more counterproductive

00:57:23.660 agenda.

00:57:24.420 And to say it again, counterproductive even by the

00:57:28.240 standards of the people who are hypothetically putting the

00:57:30.920 agenda forward.

00:57:32.080 It's like, why the hell would you oppose nuclear power?

00:57:35.920 That's utterly insane, especially in a place like

00:57:38.380 Germany, especially when you Germans then have to import 0.99

00:57:41.600 nuclear power from the Scandinavians and the French.

00:57:45.240 You know, it's so blind that it's a miracle.

00:57:49.120 But it baffles me already that we live in a time,

00:57:52.360 apparently, where we have to justify our existence with data.

00:57:54.900 You know, that's something that deeply bothers me.

00:57:58.360 It deeply bothers me.

00:57:59.960 No kidding.

00:58:00.380 Yeah, yeah.

00:58:00.840 No kidding.

00:58:01.520 I mean, and, you know, this will, of course, lend me another

00:58:05.120 label in secular Europe.

00:58:07.940 But I think that the death of God that you so often discuss as

00:58:11.240 well is ultimately the main reason for that.

00:58:14.540 You know, if you forget that people have intrinsic value

00:58:17.480 because they are created in the image of God, and they're just a

00:58:21.180 number, and we have to work to net zero, and we need to now see if

00:58:25.400 you add something or take too much, and you have to justify your

00:58:29.580 own existence by quoting scientific studies, I think we've gone off

00:58:33.180 the road, man.

00:58:34.300 Like, and bad time.

00:58:35.560 Like, this, are we China now?

00:58:39.040 Is that what we are?

00:58:40.320 These people have their mouths full constantly.

00:58:42.520 They're always talking about human rights here and there.

00:58:44.920 But now we have come to a point where we have to justify our entire

00:58:48.140 existence to our Malthusian overlords, and I'm not okay with it.

00:58:51.680 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:58:52.280 I'm not okay with it.

00:58:53.620 Yeah, I'm not okay.

00:58:54.480 I'm not okay with it either.

00:58:55.720 And the whole Malthusian proposition, so let's just walk through that a

00:59:00.700 second.

00:59:01.440 So that's a biological metaphor.

00:59:03.220 So let's just walk through that a minute, just to show exactly how wrong

00:59:07.620 it is.

00:59:08.920 Okay, so now there's lots of situations in which the use of biological

00:59:12.940 metaphors can shed light on human nature and even the nature of human, what

00:59:18.680 would you say, striving and thriving.

00:59:21.260 So psychologists use mouse models all the time, and that's partly because the

00:59:25.400 neurochemistry of a mouse brain, for example, is very similar to the

00:59:28.920 neurochemistry of a human brain.

00:59:30.380 There's all sorts of analogs in behavior and function that are relevant.

00:59:34.200 But the Malthusian doctrine is based on a very low-level analogy.

00:59:38.820 So the analogy is essentially this.

00:59:40.660 If you put a microorganism in a Petri dish, so it has enough agar, enough food

00:59:48.100 substrate so that it can thrive, it will multiply to the point where, and

00:59:52.140 rapidly, geometrically or exponentially, to the point where it consumes all of its

00:59:56.260 resources, and then it will catastrophically collapse.

01:00:00.920 Okay.

01:00:01.300 And so, and you can see that same thing occurring in some natural populations.

01:00:05.220 If you provide a natural population with no predation and a plethora of resources in a

01:00:11.580 constrained environment, then the population will grow until it consumes all the

01:00:16.500 resources and collapse.

01:00:18.420 Okay.

01:00:19.460 So why aren't people microorganisms in a Petri dish?

01:00:25.600 Well, there are some constraints on what we can produce and consume.

01:00:30.580 Like there's different, what would you say, scarcity of different fundamental elements, for example,

01:00:37.860 such that some things will always be more expensive than others or almost others, almost always.

01:00:42.740 There's some natural scarcity, but here's the fundamental difference between human beings

01:00:47.780 and other creatures.

01:00:50.760 So, we can produce, we can innovate, and we can produce variants of ourselves that can die

01:00:59.920 instead of us.

01:01:00.700 So on the innovation front, the innovation front, and these things are tied together, because

01:01:04.820 we can think, because we can transform cognitively, we don't have to die or vary genetically.

01:01:13.560 We can transform cognitively.

01:01:16.060 That's our niche.

01:01:17.280 And the fact that we can transform cognitively means that we can make constant scarcity into

01:01:23.060 variable plenitude.

01:01:25.820 And we've done that constantly.

01:01:27.080 Things we regard as natural resources, hydrocarbons, for example, oil, gas, those things were of

01:01:35.100 zero value in 1820, zero.

01:01:37.500 They weren't natural resources at all.

01:01:39.780 It wasn't until we figured out how to use them, how to substitute them for whale oil,

01:01:44.020 for example, that they became this unbelievable source of wealth that was immediately available

01:01:49.160 everywhere.

01:01:50.340 It was a cognitive transformation and revolution.

01:01:52.640 And there's no end to the degree to which we can use that cognitive revolution to increase

01:01:59.100 plenitude.

01:02:00.280 And that's exactly why, for example, that every baby born today will produce seven times

01:02:04.780 as much as they consume.

01:02:06.160 Now, you might say, at some scale, there's going to be some limit to plenitude, but it

01:02:11.240 isn't obvious at all what that's going to be, and it certainly isn't obvious that we've

01:02:15.100 reached that limit.

01:02:16.220 And that's especially true when you consider the possibility of computation, because we're

01:02:21.120 in this situation now where our computing resources, which take up, you know, comparatively

01:02:25.740 little resources and energy, are multiplying at a rate that's absolutely beyond comprehension.

01:02:31.040 And we have no idea how much we're going to know in 10 years.

01:02:34.360 So the Malthusian notion, there isn't anything about the Malthusian notion that's correct, 1.00

01:02:40.420 except for yeast and bacteria.

01:02:44.260 And, you know, if you're going to treat people like yeast and bacteria, then we're going to

01:02:48.440 be in the same damn situation that we're in now, right, where we have to justify our

01:02:52.560 existence by data because the world is full of scarcity, and maybe only the elites who 0.72

01:02:58.080 have our best interests in mind are going to be allowed to thrive.

01:03:01.160 Yeah.

01:03:01.900 I think I can think of a far-right ideology that talked about people as being dirty, you

01:03:07.120 know, and bacteria.

01:03:09.340 And now we are dealing with a left-wing ideology that is doing the exact same thing and making

01:03:14.820 us justify our existence.

01:03:17.620 And yet, they call the people who oppose to it far-right.

01:03:20.660 So we're full circle.

01:03:22.520 Yeah.

01:03:23.120 Well, I saw recently that Trudeau's minions are now, what would you say, working behind

01:03:30.180 the scenes to ensure that the public health officials at the World Health Organization who

01:03:36.360 are so concerned with the control of the next pandemic, just like they were with the last

01:03:40.900 one, are also now moving to ensure that climate catastrophe will be included within the domain

01:03:48.020 of public health concern that, you know, global overlords are going to be able to, yes, going

01:03:53.700 to be able to manage.

01:03:54.660 And your comment about, you know, far-right totalitarian governments treating people as if they're

01:04:03.640 infectious agents, right, cancers on the planet, let's say, we know perfectly well, again,

01:04:09.300 from the data, that that drives a totalitarian agenda.

01:04:12.440 As soon as you use language of contamination, pollution, and disgust to characterize someone,

01:04:19.340 let's say human beings, you immediately elicit the unconscious and conscious activations of the

01:04:26.460 disgust systems that protect us from contamination. 0.70

01:04:29.140 And those are very dangerous once they're activated.

01:04:32.460 They aim at destruction, right?

01:04:34.640 At the destruction of the pathogen.

01:04:36.380 Yes, and those people, those are the ones that the farmers, the truckers, the people

01:04:41.280 that we've seen out on the streets today have protested against.

01:04:44.600 That's why they were out on the street.

01:04:46.260 And when I said that earlier in this conversation, we have been speaking to people who feel like

01:04:51.460 they are ruled by people who hate them.

01:04:53.580 And that's maybe they can't voice exactly why.

01:04:56.580 You know, they can come up with examples.

01:04:58.340 Obviously, they are feeling it in their own finances, but they can tell.

01:05:02.680 And I think that people ultimately on a human level, on a soul level, can feel when they are

01:05:10.640 being despised by others.

01:05:12.680 And this, exactly, this notion that you are just describing right now, Jordan, that I think

01:05:17.380 is the motor behind this protest.

01:05:20.200 People can sense that they are being hated.

01:05:23.160 People can sense that they are being despised.

01:05:25.260 And they are done with it because they realize that they are the ones paying for it and that

01:05:30.420 the state should be here to serve us, not the other way around.

01:05:35.720 Anthony, just out of curiosity, you know, you and Ava have just talked about the breadth

01:05:43.760 and depth of this protest and its positive effects.

01:05:47.720 But you closed by pointing out, for example, that the finance minister that you guys talked

01:05:53.000 to or that spoke to you right at the close of the protests doesn't seem to have learned

01:05:58.620 a damn thing, which doesn't surprise me in the least.

01:06:01.960 And so that makes me question just how effective what you've done so far is. 0.99

01:06:08.140 And I want your opinions about that.

01:06:09.780 And then I'm also curious, like, why didn't your now united organization, given your 80% level,

01:06:17.680 of public support, call for something approximating a general strike and just bring the whole

01:06:23.580 bloody thing to a halt?

01:06:25.460 Yeah, well, that would be the obvious thing.

01:06:27.580 But our, well, how should I explain it?

01:06:34.320 Well, actually, it's against the law to do this general strike because it obviously is

01:06:40.840 against the law.

01:06:41.460 But I reckon we have to come to the stage where we have to break the law.

01:06:47.360 Sometimes, which is not meaning violence.

01:06:50.420 It's like just civil disobedience.

01:06:52.580 Yeah, exactly.

01:06:53.120 Yeah.

01:06:53.420 That's probably the next stage.

01:06:55.940 But we have to talk about that between us, between the organizations.

01:07:00.900 But you're completely right.

01:07:02.080 I mean, we gave the government two options.

01:07:06.700 Well, there are two options.

01:07:08.300 Either they turn back to a policy which is for the people, like Eva said, which is definitely 0.85

01:07:15.080 not.

01:07:15.700 I mean, we forgot loads of things which are going completely wrong in Germany.

01:07:19.720 I mean, we have a farming minister who's telling us we should only eat, and this is not a joke,

01:07:26.620 10 grams meat per day, right?

01:07:30.000 This is honestly what they are trying to tell us, 10 grams, right?

01:07:34.400 Which is nothing.

01:07:35.640 Yeah.

01:07:35.840 When the politicians start telling you what you can and can't eat, we've crossed a line.

01:07:41.620 It's like, you don't get to tell me where I set my thermostat.

01:07:44.880 You don't get to tell me what I can drive and when.

01:07:47.040 And you certainly bloody well don't get to tell me what I can eat. 1.00

01:07:49.780 Like, fundamentally and seriously, to hell with you. 0.98

01:07:53.640 And what it also indicates to me, and increasingly clearly, is that once you're waving the flag

01:07:59.680 of planetary savior on the environmentalist front, once you've turned 100% to that kind

01:08:06.480 of nature worship, there is absolutely no level of control whatsoever that you won't

01:08:12.520 stoop to and justify by your moral pretension, right?

01:08:16.500 Redounding to your credit and increasing your power at the same time as it does.

01:08:22.440 So, all right.

01:08:23.060 So, they're perfect.

01:08:23.900 So, this begs the question, though, doesn't it?

01:08:26.100 Like, I watched Claudine Gay resign from Harvard, and I've watched the moderate left-wingers

01:08:33.220 flap about now in increasing consternation, recognizing as they do the absolute danger of the diversity, 0.99

01:08:40.840 equity, and inclusivity, idiocy. 0.99

01:08:42.740 That's part and parcel of this, what would you say, radical leftist line of anti-human thinking. 0.97

01:08:49.500 But, at the same time, I see that I don't believe that Harvard as an institution has learned

01:08:54.380 a damn thing, and I don't believe that the moderates on the Democrat side in the United

01:08:59.380 States, for example, have any idea whatsoever how deep the ideological corruption and rot has 0.99

01:09:06.400 become.

01:09:07.360 And so, you've pushed forward this protest, but as you said yourself, you still have members

01:09:14.660 of the government firmly in charge who think that we should eat 10 grams of meat a day and

01:09:19.500 who don't believe that they're going to throw you a bone or two maybe in the near future,

01:09:24.540 but the probability that they're going to revisit the ideology upon which they've based their

01:09:29.420 political empire strikes me to be close to zero.

01:09:32.020 So, again, you said the future's uncertain and unpredictable.

01:09:36.200 What do you think's going to happen and what should happen?

01:09:38.660 We have three elections this year in East Germany.

01:09:43.320 In East Germany, the polls show that the far-right party, the AfD in Germany, is by far in the lead

01:09:53.520 in these polls, and which will be like an earthquake in our politician in Germany, because we never

01:10:01.300 had this situation.

01:10:03.240 And if this happens, and I reckon it will, because like you said, they will not change

01:10:07.900 their policy.

01:10:09.560 Things will change rapidly in Germany, because like you know, politicians, they want power.

01:10:15.120 And to get power, you have to compromise.

01:10:17.500 And even though they now say, we'll never compromise, we'll never go together with this

01:10:23.680 party, I reckon just because they want the power, they will.

01:10:28.460 And that will be a landslide, it will be a completely change in Germany. 0.79

01:10:32.700 But saying that, that might even still, I still have hope, I don't know if hope's the right

01:10:42.140 word, that our actual government will change the way they govern. 0.67

01:10:48.600 Not by 180 degrees, which we need, but maybe a few degrees.

01:10:54.560 And that might, these two options are on the table, and only these two options.

01:10:59.580 Okay, well, something similar to that has happened in the Netherlands.

01:11:04.000 So now, Eva, what's the status of the government in the Netherlands?

01:11:07.780 And is Geert Wilder going to head up the new government?

01:11:10.380 Is that how it looks?

01:11:11.540 And what do you think of him?

01:11:13.020 And what do you think, again, let's talk about this a little bit, what do you think

01:11:16.760 the dangers are that present themselves in consequence of that in the Netherlands?

01:11:21.840 The same thing applies to Germany.

01:11:24.120 And we could also talk about the AfD to some degree, because they're certainly pilloried as

01:11:28.580 far-right in Western media, certainly in North America.

01:11:32.280 You know, they're viewed as, to right of Viktor Orban, I would say, and he's definitely persona

01:11:37.140 non grata to the legacy media.

01:11:38.980 So let's start with the situation again in the Netherlands, and then move to what you see,

01:11:43.680 Eva, as being most likely in Germany.

01:11:47.520 I'd like to hear your thoughts about the AfD as well.

01:11:50.080 OK, so we are still in the process of forming a coalition right now.

01:11:54.940 As I said, we have a very scattered political landscape.

01:11:57.460 And so all of the parties that one will need to form or have negotiations and form ultimately

01:12:03.200 a coalition to have a majority in parliament.

01:12:05.580 So without that, it's going to be difficult to pass any legislation, obviously.

01:12:09.940 So this process is very important.

01:12:11.540 What is now happening is that the, let's just say, the legacy parties, the establishment

01:12:17.600 parties that have ruled the Netherlands, and I would say destroyed it actively for the past

01:12:22.880 30 years, are doing everything in their power to stall that process.

01:12:27.800 Because Geert Wilders is becoming increasingly popular.

01:12:32.020 As I said, he got one out of four votes in the elections just a month ago.

01:12:36.900 And now he's polling at one in three votes.

01:12:40.080 So the last thing that they want right now is the coalition formation process to fail and

01:12:46.460 for new general elections to be called, because then he's going to become even bigger.

01:12:51.040 So what I think the political strategy at home is, is they're going to stall that process for

01:12:55.840 as long as possible.

01:12:57.240 The parties, the moderate right-wing party, the centrist parties, they're going to pretend

01:13:02.260 to be willing to work with him.

01:13:04.120 And then they're going to drag it out so long, and they're going to say at a certain point,

01:13:08.260 well, you know, this man is just impossible.

01:13:10.020 And they're already saying that he has said things that go against the constitution and

01:13:14.520 that are a threat to the rule of law, et cetera.

01:13:17.400 So they're building their case.

01:13:19.540 And I think that that is something that we see everywhere is that this, you know, this

01:13:22.600 is a war of attrition, essentially.

01:13:24.220 So we have to be prepared for all of these games.

01:13:28.500 However, I think something similar might happen in Germany.

01:13:31.720 But what I do think is that the genie is out of the bottle with the people.

01:13:37.300 And that, to me, is ultimately the only thing that matters.

01:13:40.180 I don't put any of my solace in the political party system anyway.

01:13:43.660 What I do care about is the willingness of people to stand up for what they believe is

01:13:47.780 right and to not be intimidated by people who lie about them and about what they stand

01:13:53.480 for.

01:13:54.220 Right?

01:13:54.440 So what I think is going to happen in Germany with AFD, the people that I've met from AFD,

01:13:59.680 what I've seen about AFD, is they are conservative people who essentially are saying, well, the

01:14:05.520 idea, Merkel's idea to let 1.2 million migrants in in one year in 2015 might have not been the

01:14:11.600 greatest idea.

01:14:13.340 You know, to me, that's a very legitimate standpoint.

01:14:16.120 Extraordinarily legitimate.

01:14:16.980 Especially because there is no alternative, no pun intended, in Germany, really, asides 0.95

01:14:23.020 from the parties that have destroyed the country very actively.

01:14:26.760 So I think that they are going to win by a much larger margin than the polls suggest right

01:14:32.080 now.

01:14:32.420 Just like what happened for us, because the PVV was also not, you know, they weren't

01:14:36.560 polled at the extent that they now have won the elections with.

01:14:39.820 And I think that that will change something in the mindset of the Germans, because like

01:14:45.620 I said, if even in Germany, that label doesn't hold enough power anymore to deter people from

01:14:52.920 voting for change, then you really know that the government is messed up, right?

01:14:57.140 You really know the establishment is messed up and that the people are fed up.

01:15:01.100 So I personally, I think that Germans who want change have no choice, really, but to vote

01:15:08.100 for the right-wing parties.

01:15:09.920 And I would say, essentially, not for any party that has governed the nation in the last

01:15:13.960 10 years.

01:15:15.180 Okay, so do you see, and I'd like both your opinions on this, it's so difficult to get

01:15:22.480 a handle on any of this, say, because, you know, I've been watching the political landscape

01:15:27.180 for a very long time.

01:15:28.280 And certainly the idea of Geert Wilders has raised my hackles in the past.

01:15:36.340 And I would say that's because I'm profoundly, at least because I'm relatively ignorant about

01:15:41.660 politics in the Netherlands and still susceptible to the consensus view developed by the low-resolution

01:15:50.160 pictures presented by the legacy media.

01:15:53.120 And so I don't know what to make of that.

01:15:54.920 And exactly the same thing applies to the AFD.

01:15:57.240 And so I'd like to know from both of you, what dangers, if any, you think this tilt towards

01:16:04.640 this more, we've already taken apart the notion of the right.

01:16:09.600 God only knows even what that is anymore, given the overuse of the term.

01:16:13.800 But do either of you have any qualms about these political transformations?

01:16:19.480 Do you think that they could, just because you're fighting something that in and of itself

01:16:25.000 is reprehensible and destructive doesn't mean that the weapons that you use to fight it

01:16:30.300 can't also pose precisely the same danger?

01:16:33.720 So, Ava, maybe you could start by commenting on that, especially with regards to the AFD.

01:16:38.460 And then, Anthony, you could chime in with regard to Germany.

01:16:42.480 Well, I mean, these are both the upsides and the downsides of democracy in general that

01:16:47.620 we're discussing, I think.

01:16:48.920 So, of course, the instrument or the alternative can also turn bad.

01:16:54.840 But then that's inherent to democracy.

01:16:57.660 And the fact that we have to form coalitions in our democratic systems, at least, that's

01:17:03.700 somewhat of a safeguard in a sense that they are going to have to work together with other

01:17:07.960 parties anyway.

01:17:09.500 So let's say, God forbid, that these parties turn out to have crazy ideas that we absolutely

01:17:14.240 didn't want and didn't vote for, we have to either trust in the fact that the system will

01:17:20.900 correct it, or I think you can throw away the entire concept of democracy almost all

01:17:25.800 together, right?

01:17:27.140 So I think that a lot of people here are trying to use the possibility of maybe AFD going too

01:17:36.340 far in certain aspects or not having, I hear another argument often that they say, oh, well,

01:17:42.120 they don't have good people, they don't have enough people with enough qualities to govern

01:17:47.020 the country.

01:17:47.620 I'm like, well, I don't know if the people who are in power right now do.

01:17:50.960 Like, clearly, you know, you guys have a bit of an issue on your hands.

01:17:54.060 So you might as well try.

01:17:56.080 And I think that that is essentially what this country needs.

01:17:59.060 You know, something needs to happen.

01:18:01.260 And like I said, I'm not one to put all of my solace and trust and hope in the political

01:18:05.540 system anyway, but it is very clear to me that Germany and Europe in general is on a

01:18:12.000 path of national suicide.

01:18:14.120 So might as well try something else for once.

01:18:17.500 And I, you know, because I find myself in the position so often that I've been called

01:18:21.740 far right for what I think are perfectly valid opinions that I care a little bit less at

01:18:28.160 this point.

01:18:28.700 You know, I'm like, no, I think something just needs to change here.

01:18:32.700 And I try to trust in the democratic system and that it will correct itself.

01:18:37.980 That terrifying specter Maloney in Italy, who everyone and sundry was warned about in no

01:18:45.720 uncertain terms forever, you know, tantamount to Mussolini and her fascist proclivities has

01:18:51.320 turned out to be a hell of a lot more moderate, even than the people who voted for her might

01:18:56.540 have hoped.

01:18:57.160 So these specters of fascism that keep looming turn out to have a lot less teeth than feared

01:19:04.160 when they end up, what would you say, when they end up acquiring a certain degree of political

01:19:10.260 power.

01:19:11.240 Now, you know, Orban has been the most successful conservative figure in some ways in on the European

01:19:18.540 scene, and he's still demonized roundly and continually in the Western media.

01:19:24.220 But it's also been my apprehension with regard to Hungary that things are nowhere near as dismal

01:19:30.520 there as they might have been, given all the fear that was engendered around Orban's policies.

01:19:36.580 And so what do you think about that?

01:19:38.500 And then, Anthony, we'll turn to your feelings about the AfD in Germany.

01:19:42.340 Yeah, I think you're very right.

01:19:44.920 I mean, when I go to Hungary, for example, personally, and when I speak to other people

01:19:49.820 who go there, a lot of people feel like they can finally take a breather.

01:19:53.420 It's like, oh, that's nice.

01:19:54.680 You know, this is what Europe used to be like 50 years ago, 30 years ago in some countries,

01:19:59.040 even less.

01:19:59.600 And I am upset as a 27-year-old that I have never experienced Europe as safe, as functioning,

01:20:09.740 as sane, normal, dare I say, you know, as I find a city like Budapest to be.

01:20:16.520 You know, my parents had that experience.

01:20:20.180 My grandfather sure as heck had that experience.

01:20:23.580 But I never had it, and I never voted for it.

01:20:25.960 You know, I have always, growing up, had to be afraid going out after dark.

01:20:30.620 You know, it's just, that's our reality right now.

01:20:35.280 And that's our reality not because it happened like a natural disaster, but because people

01:20:40.220 in power made the wrong decisions actively.

01:20:44.140 And I think that everybody can agree to the fact that a country like Hungary is not, you 0.79

01:20:51.140 know, the dictatorship that they make it out to be in the media.

01:20:53.680 What I saw at the time, especially the last time I was in Budapest, I was there for a

01:20:59.120 symposium on promotion of the family, which seemed to be, you know, a relatively positive

01:21:04.940 and certainly a non-Malthusian concern.

01:21:10.420 I mean, if you're in the airports in Budapest, for example, what you see are a plethora of

01:21:15.720 posters celebrating the family as the core bedrock social institution of the polity.

01:21:24.220 And that just doesn't strike me as particularly Nazi in its derivation, especially.

01:21:30.360 And so this, and I know the president of Hungary to some degree, and she's a woman who is quite

01:21:36.820 admirable in my estimation, who spent most of her career trying to figure out how to protect

01:21:42.960 the family and how to economically incentivize the role that women play in reproduction in 1.00

01:21:50.440 keeping with opening up the opportunities for them on the economic front in general.

01:21:55.040 And it's produced policies that have decreased abortion substantially without force, decreased

01:22:01.220 divorce, increased the marriage rate, and also increased the rate at which women are

01:22:05.500 participating in the broader general economy.

01:22:09.240 And so none of that particularly screams fascism to me.

01:22:13.200 And the fact, too, that we've seen, well, that the consequences of the election of baloney

01:22:20.100 and also one of the so-called far-right parties in Sweden seems to me to indicate that there's

01:22:26.760 a lot more fear there than is justified by the consequences, especially in contrast to this

01:22:34.180 absolutely insane, utopian, self-serving, moralizing, green agenda that provides an absolute

01:22:40.500 excuse for everything you can possibly conceptualize.

01:22:44.580 Anthony, in terms of the AFD, how do you think it is being perceived by the protesting class now,

01:22:53.920 the people that you've been talking to, the truckers, the farmers, the people who work

01:22:58.520 for the railways, the dock workers, because they were all involved in this protest as well.

01:23:02.860 And what dangers do you as a German citizen see on the fascist side, so to speak, as a consequence

01:23:12.600 of these populist movements?

01:23:15.080 Well, me, myself, I'm in politics for the last eight years.

01:23:20.300 And I was in the CDU, that was a party from Angela Merkel.

01:23:24.820 And I left the party about a year ago, and I moved to the parties called Freie Wähler.

01:23:32.160 I would say they are the old CDU, as I knew it 20 years ago.

01:23:36.800 And the AFD, yes, it's a far-right party, which is gaining on popularity massively.

01:23:47.240 And the main reason is, I think, is the same reason like in Italy and in Sweden, migration.

01:23:53.400 We have a massive migration problem in Germany.

01:23:56.940 We have, I say, around about five to six million people since 2015 who came to Germany.

01:24:03.460 And at the moment, we are way over 300,000 this year.

01:24:10.660 And it's not the problem with migration.

01:24:13.540 The problem is who is coming.

01:24:15.220 And we don't even know who is coming.

01:24:17.480 Up till 2010, I was police.

01:24:19.740 I was a police officer in Berlin.

01:24:21.780 We had a massive problem with migrants in them days, because the migrants who come now 1.00

01:24:27.340 are mainly young men from Muslim countries.

01:24:29.940 And like I said, we don't even know who is coming, because they come in, they are allowed

01:24:36.380 to stay here, even though it's against the law.

01:24:38.860 And we don't obey the law.

01:24:40.760 The government doesn't obey the law like it should be.

01:24:43.980 And governments like Sweden, I mean, Sweden is very liberal, as I know it.

01:24:50.700 I mean, even Denmark, you didn't mention Denmark, because Denmark isn't governed by a right-wing

01:24:56.920 party, but they are governed by a female president who is a social democrat.

01:25:02.700 But what she did is she uses the same methods, the politics, the right-wing party kind of is. 0.99

01:25:12.360 And that's why the right-wing parties in Denmark aren't existent anymore, to be honest.

01:25:19.680 So it's not who runs a country, which right or left-wing, it's what policy do you do in

01:25:29.180 your country.

01:25:29.760 And talking about the AFD, it's very, very strong in East Germany, because the East Germans,

01:25:38.780 I think they have, we say they're better antennas, which, you know what I mean?

01:25:44.780 Because, I mean, they come from the DDR.

01:25:47.640 So the older people who lived in a climate like they did, they know if something's not

01:25:55.480 going right in your country.

01:25:57.340 And that's why they turned to the AFD more than we in the West do.

01:26:03.780 And many say they should be forbidden, the party should be forbidden.

01:26:09.360 And I say, who are we, the people, to say it should be forbidden or it's not a democratic

01:26:18.440 party?

01:26:19.300 For me, only one institution could say that.

01:26:23.420 That's the High Court in Germany.

01:26:24.500 If they say, yes, they should be forbidden, okay.

01:26:28.540 But me or the press, aren't the people or the institutions to say that?

01:26:35.460 So, like I said a few minutes ago, it will be very interesting to see how the AFD and the

01:26:41.480 CDU, if they compare with each other, if they go together after the three elections we have

01:26:47.140 in East Germany, that will be very, very interesting.

01:26:49.780 Well, you talked about antenna, you know, and I've traveled extensively with my wife through

01:26:55.200 Eastern Europe in the last years, multiple times, many, many different countries, meeting

01:27:02.300 with many, many people.

01:27:03.440 And certainly one of the things I saw was that the survivors of the Soviet regime, which is

01:27:12.200 all those people, are much more sensitive to the dangers posed and the reality of the radical

01:27:19.900 leftist agenda that is sweeping over the Western world in the hypothetical guise of the continuance

01:27:29.240 of liberalism.

01:27:30.240 And that's antennae.

01:27:31.740 And much more likely, as they did in Hungary, in consequence, and to Poland in some degree,

01:27:36.400 although not recently, but in Hungary, to favor modes of apprehension and governance that

01:27:43.960 keep the communist spectre, that spectre of centralized planning, for example, at as much

01:27:50.900 bay as possible.

01:27:51.900 And so, that seems to be reflected, for example, in the attitude of the East Germans that you

01:27:58.960 just described toward the globalist, utopian, quasi-green agenda that we've been discussing.

01:28:05.020 You know, my sense has been quite strong in recent years that the bastion of European civilization,

01:28:13.740 that would be Judeo-Christian civilization in Europe, is now shifted to Eastern Europe rather

01:28:18.280 than Western Europe.

01:28:19.180 And, you know, with the UK playing a rather ambivalent role in that regard, because it's

01:28:24.220 a country that's very split, with the Brexit people more aligned with the Eastern Europeans

01:28:30.140 and the, well, the Labour Party, which is most likely to be the next government, much more

01:28:34.820 aligned with the globalist utopians in Brussels.

01:28:37.900 So, Ava, what's on your slate now?

01:28:41.760 The protests in Germany have come to their current conclusion.

01:28:46.760 And then, Anthony, maybe you can tell us what's, well, what's the next move that lays in front

01:28:54.600 of the protesters.

01:28:55.640 So, Ava, what are you up to next?

01:28:57.360 And what are you working on?

01:28:59.860 And what do you hope to have happened in the near future?

01:29:03.300 Well, talking about communism and the agenda and the similarities with the agenda that we

01:29:09.880 are facing right now, I've spoken very often about the global war on farming, right?

01:29:14.960 That's the reason why I'm here right now.

01:29:16.840 That's the reason why I decided to join the protests in the Netherlands to speak out, is

01:29:21.500 I want to make people aware of, again, this utopian green deal and the net zero agenda and

01:29:30.360 ultimately the Agenda 2030, which is a United Nations agenda that I think is at the core of

01:29:36.760 this. And that agenda, to me, reeks of communism more than anything else.

01:29:42.620 But you have to really see through the pretexts that they use.

01:29:46.520 So, everybody, the entire world, right, is part of the United Nations.

01:29:51.120 And the United Nations have laid out sustainable development goals that are ultimately at the

01:29:56.600 top of the hierarchy, you know, for all of these policies that we are facing right now,

01:30:01.280 that if you look at them at face value, they look very noble. You know, I think one of the

01:30:07.300 first ones is to end world hunger. But then if you think about how they would put that into

01:30:13.260 practice, none of those goals can ever be achieved or attained without the redistribution

01:30:18.780 of wealth, good, goods, foods, rights. And so that ultimately, to me, is this is neo-communism

01:30:27.720 or neo-feudalism, you could even say, I guess, packaged just a little bit nicer, you know?

01:30:34.320 It's like, oh, we are here to save you. But if you look at the reality of things, and I think that

01:30:39.740 we are all currently already experiencing that, what will happen, just like with communism in the

01:30:44.660 old days, is that the ordinary people will become poorer and more miserable, and the top layer will 0.65

01:30:50.760 become even richer. And that's what we are facing today. And I will continue, I guess, my fight and

01:30:57.320 my fight for the farmers in that sense, because I truly believe that the farmers are the one group,

01:31:02.960 especially, and I know that this is also a very radical thing to say in a European context, but

01:31:07.820 we in Europe, we don't have a Second Amendment. I think that the sort of the spirit of, you know,

01:31:13.760 wanting to protect your people against a tyrannical government is not as embedded in our minds as it

01:31:19.340 is in, let's say, the American debate, right? Yeah, yeah.

01:31:22.420 So it's really important that people become aware of the fact that, yes, we can also face

01:31:27.620 tyrannical governments. And the pretty words that they use are just pretty words, but you are going

01:31:32.520 to end up poor and miserable. And so...

01:31:35.260 Well, so the farmers, so you see, and this seems to be a leitmotif for your political operating,

01:31:42.500 is that you seem to react as if, if it bothers the farmers and the truckers, it's probably wrong.

01:31:53.600 And that seems to me to be an extremely useful rule of thumb. And it's also one you'd think the

01:31:59.200 bloody leftists would adhere to, given their hypothetical concern with the working class,

01:32:03.820 right? Because you can't get more bedrock working class than farmers and truckers.

01:32:08.360 So, and that does seem to me to be a reasonable measurement tool. You know, if the policies are

01:32:15.360 bothering the farmers and making them protest, something is up because that's just not how

01:32:20.920 farmers operate, not generally. And the same can be said for truckers. When they're goaded into

01:32:26.400 political action, something genuinely rotten is occurring. And, you know, with this regard to

01:32:31.800 these sustainable development goals, if you wanted to feed the bloody poor, the first thing you would do

01:32:37.280 is lower energy costs by whatever means necessary. And so if you think you can quintuple energy costs

01:32:43.960 and feed the poor, you're an idiot or you're malevolent, you know, or you're narcissistically 1.00

01:32:49.920 self-serving or some terrible combination of all of that. 1.00

01:32:53.280 Yeah. Yeah. So my goal for now is to, I mean, I want this agenda abolished, right? I want the 2030

01:32:59.920 agenda abolished. I don't want to vote for politicians who say, oh, you know, yeah, maybe it goes a little

01:33:05.580 too fast. Let's push it to 2035. You know, a fast way to hell or a long way to hell, it's still a way

01:33:13.020 to hell. And I just want the whole thing gone. So that's where I see my role in this. And I want to 0.55

01:33:17.900 continue my political commentary. And, you know, in that sense, I met you guys in service because I

01:33:22.700 have not forgotten where my food comes from. And I want to be able to continue to eat healthy foods

01:33:27.400 and live my life freely and decide where I travel, when I travel, who I meet, what I eat. 0.99

01:33:33.660 And I don't want the damn globalists in my business. So I know that if I don't, if the farmers fall, 0.99

01:33:39.020 like I said, they are the group in our society that can make a true, you know, stance against

01:33:44.780 the globalists. They have the manpower, as we've seen, to really paralyze an entire country. And so I

01:33:51.000 hope that they do go and strike and that they don't let themselves be intimidated by these people who

01:33:56.620 will come after you, but then will let illegal migrants flood your nation and won't send them 1.00

01:34:01.200 back, talking about equality before the law. I mean, you know, I, so I, that's, I'm at your

01:34:07.360 service. I will support you as much as I can. And I find it extraordinarily important what you've done

01:34:12.360 and very brave, especially in a nation like Germany. So. Okay, Anthony. So what's, what's next for you

01:34:20.980 personally? The protests, this current round of protests is folding down. So what do you go back

01:34:27.340 to? And then what do you see unfolding in front of you and your protesting peers in the, well, let's

01:34:33.580 say in the next year or in the next year, we have to get rid of this government, no matter how this year,

01:34:40.780 Germany cannot survive two more years of this government. And I mean it, honestly. I told you

01:34:49.620 earlier, we, we had our finance minister, he's free, he's from the Free Democratic Party. And he told us

01:34:56.160 today on stage, because I forgot to mention this, we in Germany are farmers, we have to leave 4% of our

01:35:05.260 land not ceded. So nothing is allowed to happen on this land because our green minister wants this

01:35:15.840 to happen. Saying in the same sentence, we have to fight because there are so many people starving to

01:35:24.140 death on this world. We have to fight for every handful of grain. This is ridiculous. It's insane

01:35:31.300 actually. And he's right in one point. Every 3.8 seconds, a human being dies, starves to death. Every 13

01:35:41.900 seconds, a child under five years dies of lack of food, right? And in the same sentence, we are over flooded

01:35:53.040 with grain from Ukraine. And then we have to, we have to leave 4% of our land where we have to pay tax, and we're not

01:36:01.280 allowed to cede anything on this land. It's insane. But our finance minister today said, it's a point we

01:36:08.660 can talk to. So there's a, there's a, there's a goal, maybe, to divide these two parties in this

01:36:17.480 government. I mean, they are divided anyway. But we can, we can really put pressure on, on these free

01:36:24.960 democratic elected persons, people or politicians, because they are below 4%. In Germany, you need 5%

01:36:33.400 to make the jump into parliament. So all these, all these people, all these politicians from the free

01:36:41.120 democratic party, obviously they have interest in the next, to be in the next parliament or whatever,

01:36:46.340 either in charge or not. But if we, if we put pressure on that, that's, this will make us, uh, or give us a chance

01:36:53.720 to divide and maybe get rid of the government. So, um, this is what we're going to do. We're going to,

01:36:59.720 and, and, and, and I mean that we have to escalate another level in our protest. And, um, we, we are capable of

01:37:07.720 doing that easily. And watch them come after you for saying this, by the way, like talking about the

01:37:12.760 totalitarian spirit of the Germans, that, that never left. And it's very much present in, uh, in the 0.81

01:37:18.100 current government. They, they, I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if they, because they've already attacked

01:37:22.820 you so massively in the media. I wouldn't be surprised if this would lend us an investigation

01:37:28.660 with what they call, what is it, the, the Verfassungsschutz, like the protection of the constitution.

01:37:34.260 There's a whole agency that comes after ordinary people and, and censors them.

01:37:39.100 Okay. Well, but, well, but, but let, let's, um, let's put all that in context. I mean, one of the

01:37:44.460 things that I've been struck by in listening to you two is that you both, both implicitly and

01:37:51.180 explicitly indicated your belief that the best possible way of sorting all of this out is through

01:37:58.420 the democratic means that we already have in place. Now you talked about the necessity for protest

01:38:03.580 protest and the right to protest and sometimes the necessity for civil disobedience, but nowhere in

01:38:10.000 any of our discussion that did either of you indicate that there's any better way forward than

01:38:15.680 the electoral process and the checks and balances that are associated that with that, with regard

01:38:23.060 to say the necessity for coalition building in both the Netherlands and in Germany. And so if they do

01:38:29.780 come after you, um, it isn't because you've been calling for violent revolution and it isn't because

01:38:36.000 you're basically turn the government on its head and establish some sort of dictatorship radicals, you

01:38:42.340 know, you, you, you both, and this is actually something that's very positive to see is you do believe, you

01:38:47.200 appear to believe that, um, we can work out these problems within the democratic frameworks that we've

01:38:54.100 already established. And more importantly, that there is no better way that we know of to work

01:39:00.640 them out. And that seems to me to be correct. You know, I mean, it's incumbent on us if we're facing

01:39:07.080 political or ideological strategies that we don't agree with to find our way forward in a manner that

01:39:14.780 doesn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. And so, well, and then you see the example in the

01:39:20.960 Netherlands too, of the fact that the kinds of protests that it hasn't been as effective in

01:39:25.460 Canada, by the way, but although we'll see what the long-term consequences are in the next election,

01:39:31.620 you know, you, you have shown in the Netherlands, the, the, the farmers there certainly showed that

01:39:36.240 these wide scale protests, civil protests, and they have been markedly civil like they were in Canada

01:39:42.320 do can and do have a walloping impact on the structures of governance. And so, you know,

01:39:48.140 maybe we need to take something approximating a five-year view of this, you know, that this is

01:39:53.140 the beginning of something new and we don't want to get too hot and bothered about doing anything too 0.95

01:39:58.480 radically stupid and we can let the electoral process play itself out. And, and so does that 0.96

01:40:04.100 seem in keeping with what you're hoping, both of you? Absolutely. And let me point out our protests

01:40:10.400 in the last week. I mean, we had, we had probably 200,000 farmers and tractors out on, on the roads

01:40:17.880 and we had so many, um, normal workers out. The, the, the truck drivers were out on the streets

01:40:24.640 and we, it was so friendly and, and peaceful. We had no, I mean, in Holland, we saw some scenes

01:40:31.940 where police even used the weapon on one farmer. There was nothing like that. I mean, honestly,

01:40:37.680 not even nobody, nobody got arrested. Nobody got even a ticket for a fine for anything. I mean,

01:40:43.500 imagine that so many people out on the street and, um, in, in context to that yesterday,

01:40:49.740 we had a demonstration in Berlin, a left wing demonstration, uh, um, with 21, um, injured police

01:40:59.400 officers. Right. This is, this is one, one demonstration in Berlin and one week of demonstrations

01:41:06.260 all over Germany with hundreds of thousand people out, not even a ticket, not even a fine, nothing.

01:41:12.260 So nobody can tell us we are not peaceful. And, and like I said, I was a police officer. I know what,

01:41:20.220 um, some demonstrations can turn out to be and still be, and still be in legal rights. And, and we will

01:41:27.860 carry on peaceful, friendly, but we need to, um, increase the power. And like, if I said,

01:41:35.180 we have the power, we can shut down the country for good and we will do if necessary.

01:41:42.600 So, so that's also a very optimistic set of observations because, you know, not only did you

01:41:48.600 point out that the people who were protesting did so like the Canadian truckers did with extremely

01:41:55.900 peace of peaceably. In fact, the crime rate in Ottawa fell during the trucker convoy, but also the

01:42:02.680 authorities in Germany, as you pointed out, responded in kind, right? And that there wasn't provocation

01:42:09.180 and there wasn't violence. And so that's all the more reason why we can be optimistic that these

01:42:15.060 difficult discussions that we're having about how we're going to conduct ourselves into the future

01:42:21.020 can be done within the confines of, of the legal frameworks and the electoral frameworks that are

01:42:27.040 already established. And with hopefully a certain degree of goodwill and intelligent foresight on all

01:42:33.640 sides. So, well, good. All right. Well, look, you two, thank you very much for agreeing to talk to me

01:42:40.800 today. Well, we'll keep in touch, all three of us with any degree of luck, because I definitely want

01:42:46.740 to watch as this unfolds. I certainly share your sense, Ava, that if it's upsetting the farmers and

01:42:53.720 the truckers, then something serious has gone astray and that everyone should be attending to.

01:42:59.600 That's particularly true for farmers in places like the Netherlands and Germany, who are, as Anthony

01:43:05.140 pointed out, well, generally extraordinarily competent people in a very, very difficult enterprise with

01:43:12.440 their ears to the ground and their eyes open and also very unlikely to act politically unless necessity

01:43:20.060 has driven them to that extreme. And for everybody watching and listening on YouTube, your time and

01:43:28.020 attention is much appreciated. You want to be alert to the goings on in Europe, on the populist uprising

01:43:36.600 front in Spain, in Poland, in Germany, in the Netherlands, because this is a harbinger of

01:43:43.680 things to come. All right. Till we talk again. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Thank you.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - January 22, 2024

416. The Revolution of German Farmers ｜ Eva Vlaardingerbroek & Anthony Lee

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