The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 423. Greatness, Marriage, Parenthood, & Climbing New Mountains

00:00:00.940 Hey everyone, real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious and important.

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00:00:12.740 We know how isolating and overwhelming these conditions can be, and we wanted to take a moment to reach out to those listening who may be struggling.

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00:00:57.420 Hello everyone. Today I'm speaking with five-time consecutive Mr. Olympia champion Chris Bumstead.

00:01:17.520 So what do we talk about?

00:01:18.620 Well, we talk about the utility of aiming at something high and pursuing it, the opportunity cost that comes along with that,

00:01:27.400 the challenge of balancing that kind of single-minded and maybe necessary obsession with developing everything else that makes for a full life.

00:01:36.120 We talk a lot about marriage and about how he's integrated his relationship into his high-level professional pursuits.

00:01:43.840 Chris's wife is having a baby very soon.

00:01:46.220 We talked a fair bit about parenthood, talked about the role that his father played in his life.

00:01:51.520 We talked about the pleasure he takes in and has discovered in being a role model,

00:01:57.580 in sharing his disciplined journey towards a pinnacle with his followers.

00:02:03.520 We talked about his practice of identifying the things that are impediments to his progress forward,

00:02:10.660 his fears, his insecurities, his insecurities, his determination to face those things voluntarily,

00:02:17.960 his ability to overcome those impediments as a consequence.

00:02:20.760 That was particularly relevant on the public speaking and social engagement front.

00:02:25.720 The way that him and his wife have negotiated that within the confines of the relationship

00:02:29.760 and his plans for the future that continues after his stellar athletic and public career comes to its particular close.

00:02:40.920 So, join us for that.

00:02:42.960 So, you made your debut on the professional stage in 2017.

00:02:49.600 How old were you then?

00:02:51.140 In 2017, I was 22 years old.

00:02:56.280 22.

00:02:56.940 Okay.

00:02:57.300 So, I'm very ignorant about the domain of activity that you are engaged in.

00:03:02.480 So, I'm going to ask all sorts of stupid questions to catch myself up.

00:03:06.740 So, what does it mean to debut professionally in the world of bodybuilding?

00:03:15.020 And maybe you could also tell us about that world in general.

00:03:18.080 I don't understand its structure or, you know, the hierarchies of competition,

00:03:23.620 how you move up and all of that.

00:03:25.200 Like, what sort of world is that?

00:03:27.240 Yeah.

00:03:27.740 So, it's, there's mainly just an amateur and a professional league.

00:03:31.180 And it changed a lot over the years where it used to be a much bigger deal if you turned pro.

00:03:36.260 And you call it getting your pro card in bodybuilding.

00:03:38.340 So, you compete as an amateur, usually in your city and then in your state.

00:03:41.980 And then you'll do a national level show and that's all of an amateur.

00:03:45.280 And typically, when you win a national level show, you'll get your pro card.

00:03:49.060 And then when you're a pro, that puts you into a brand new division where you're starting back from ground zero

00:03:53.100 and you're competing against usually older people who have been in there a lot longer competing in the pro for years.

00:03:58.900 And there's multiple pro shows around the country and around the world all year.

00:04:02.940 And each one of those shows qualifies you to compete at the Olympia.

00:04:06.220 And the Olympia is like the Super Bowl, just like the Olympia, it's the end-all be-all of bodybuilding.

00:04:11.080 So, that's the goal that everybody is chasing at the end of the day.

00:04:13.780 Okay.

00:04:14.160 So, Olympia is the pinnacle.

00:04:17.320 And you won five consecutive championships.

00:04:21.600 And is that the right terminology even?

00:04:24.160 Is it a championship that you win?

00:04:25.960 Yeah.

00:04:26.100 What's the – yeah, okay, okay.

00:04:28.360 And that was at the pinnacle.

00:04:29.020 I mean, you can call it whatever you want, but yeah.

00:04:31.060 So, I had won five Olympias over the last five years.

00:04:33.640 Exactly, yeah.

00:04:35.120 Right.

00:04:35.640 And are you the current holder of the title?

00:04:38.620 That's correct, yeah.

00:04:39.360 Yes, okay, okay, good.

00:04:41.520 Good, good, good.

00:04:42.280 Just one of – and has anybody else managed that for five years in a row?

00:04:46.360 No.

00:04:46.800 So, it's actually a pretty new division I'm in.

00:04:48.620 So, that's another different tier that's within bodybuilding.

00:04:52.280 There's open bodybuilding, which is there's no weight limit.

00:04:55.060 And those are like the people like Ronnie Coleman and the huge people that a lot of people know the big names of.

00:05:00.060 And there's no weight limit there.

00:05:01.200 And I'm in a division called Classic Physique, which is meant to bring back more of like the Arnold days, a little bit more aesthetic and not quite as big.

00:05:08.200 So, I have a weight cap that I have to match.

00:05:10.740 So, my division's only been around since 2016.

00:05:13.720 So, there were two previous winners before me over the three years.

00:05:16.580 But the division's only been around for eight years.

00:05:18.620 And I've won five of those eight years.

00:05:20.580 So, no one's really had a chance to beat that.

00:05:23.320 Okay, okay.

00:05:24.240 So, I was noticing, yeah, with regard to weight, I was noticing – I don't know how accurate Wikipedia is.

00:05:29.060 But it listed your weight as 234, but in the off-season as 264.

00:05:37.940 That's pretty accurate, yeah.

00:05:40.180 Oh, okay.

00:05:40.820 So, what's the reason for the discrepancy there?

00:05:44.440 So, in bodybuilding, it's all about like bulking and cutting mainly.

00:05:47.820 You spend a majority of your year trying to put on muscle.

00:05:50.560 And to do so, you need to put on a little bit more body fat, eat more food, train a little bit more intense, do less cardio so your body's growing.

00:05:56.560 And then when you enter prep, which is like the big thing of bodybuilding, you enter like a 12- to 16-week prep, which is very strict dieting.

00:06:03.740 And its whole intention of that is stripping as much fat as possible while maintaining as much muscle as possible.

00:06:08.980 And so, that's where the weight fluctuates.

00:06:10.620 So, you want to get to a healthy body fat but a higher weight to put on some muscle.

00:06:15.060 And then you chop that down, and that's where the weight discrepancy comes in.

00:06:18.240 So, I'll be 265-ish at my highest, and I'll come down to about 240 when I'm right on stage.

00:06:24.280 Okay, and that's to make the most of your shape for the competition, I presume, to make you as cut as you can be for the purposes of the display.

00:06:36.580 Is that the case?

00:06:38.080 Exactly, yeah.

00:06:38.780 It's like chiseling down a stone, down to all the excess stone, bringing it down to just the art of it.

00:06:44.680 Right, right, right.

00:06:45.620 And so, when you're in that 12- to 16-week period, what do you do on the diet front?

00:06:52.560 What do you have to do in order to lose that 30 pounds?

00:06:56.220 And what does your diet regimen consist of?

00:07:00.400 It typically consists of you start building up to a maximum amount of calories as you can throughout the year, so your metabolism is flying.

00:07:07.760 And then when you start prep, you just slowly start bringing down the calories while increasing the amount of cardio you do.

00:07:12.300 So, let's say in my off-season, when I'm at my heaviest, I'm eating about 5,500, 5,000 calories, and at my lowest, at the end of my prep, I'll be eating about 1,500 calories.

00:07:22.640 So, it comes down quite a bit, and within that, you're adding in cardio, so you're expending a little bit more calories doing that.

00:07:28.860 And it's just kind of changing the energy output versus input to make sure that you're inputting less than you're outputting.

00:07:34.880 I see. So, it's basically, it's not so much, if I have this correct, it's not so much what you're eating at that point, it's how much you're eating, essentially assessed by caloric intake.

00:07:48.860 Exactly.

00:07:49.140 I'm curious about this because, as you perhaps know, I have an almost entirely carnivorous diet and have for a long time, and I've been watching Sean Baker a lot, especially on his Twitter feed, doctor who's been promoting the carnivore diet.

00:08:04.740 And it seems to be unbelievably useful for adding muscle mass, but also decreasing body fat content.

00:08:12.320 So, I was curious about, you know, the ratio of carbohydrates to proteins, or if there's anything additional that you're doing apart from adjusting caloric intake per se.

00:08:24.200 Yeah. Yeah. So, typically, there's like a set amount of protein people will eat, and it stays around then.

00:08:29.360 So, I'll eat about 300 grams of protein in a day, and as my calories come down, I'm normally pulling away my carbs and my fats and keeping my protein the same.

00:08:38.060 So, calories are coming down, but protein's staying the same, so that ratio just changes.

00:08:41.940 And that's why bodybuilding is so much different than a lot of other sports, if you can call it that, because it's not just about how you perform, but it's about how you look.

00:08:49.560 So, typically, in sports, it's like, what's going to allow me to perform the best?

00:08:52.920 Whereas in bodybuilding, it's like, no, I've just got to look the best, and then I still have to go and perform in the gym as best as I can.

00:08:58.140 So, it's kind of balancing those two to allow yourself to be in the gym, getting the best workouts that you can, but you also can't be eating too much to perform at your best, because then you'll be holding on too much body fat.

00:09:08.400 So, it's kind of an art of balancing all that.

00:09:10.800 Right, right. Okay. So, let's go through the progression of your career from amateur to professional, and then I would like also to talk about the criteria by which you're judged, exactly what it is that the judges are looking for.

00:09:24.420 We could talk a little bit about the popularity of the sport as well.

00:09:28.240 So, you said when you were an amateur, there are local, so what exactly are the structures of the competitions, and how popular is this?

00:09:36.740 So, you started, I believe you started weightlifting when you were about 14, is that correct?

00:09:42.940 Yeah, it was right around then, yeah.

00:09:45.060 Okay, and why did you start when you were 14, and what was the consequence of starting?

00:09:51.520 I just started, I started in the gym because I played a lot of sports, and I was very athletic, but I wasn't really good at the skill of the sports.

00:10:00.440 So, I played hockey, basketball, football, but I wasn't great at dribbling or shooting, but I was really fast and strong.

00:10:05.680 So, I ended up kind of sticking to what I like.

00:10:08.120 You know, I knew I was good at strengths, I was good in the gym, so I started doing that more and more, and I just had a passion for that.

00:10:13.660 I slowly built that, and as I started to, as sports get progressively more competitive, I started to kind of get pushed out of that, but I noticed I had a lot of unique skills in the gym, if you will.

00:10:25.240 So, I started to excel very well in that above a lot of people, and of course, at a young age, when you're starting to get attention from girls, and see some excess, and put on some muscle and all that, you start to enjoy that a little bit more.

00:10:35.460 It makes you like the training in the gym even more.

00:10:38.260 So, I put more and more focus into that, started nailing my diet, my nutrition, training, everything like that.

00:10:44.300 And then it was when I was in grade 12, my sister started dating a local bodybuilder, and they're actually married now.

00:10:50.120 He's my brother-in-law, and he started coaching me into the true realm of bodybuilding, because before that, I was just training to be strong.

00:10:57.280 I didn't understand bodybuilding to how precise it really was.

00:11:00.960 So, he started teaching me the intricacies of that, and he saw the potential in me.

00:11:05.940 He's like, you're young, I was 18 years old, had a lot of muscle on me.

00:11:08.800 He's like, you should try doing a bodybuilding show.

00:11:10.300 I'll coach you, we'll see how it goes, have some fun with it, why not?

00:11:12.960 Oh, yeah.

00:11:13.560 So, I was like, sure, I'll give it a shot.

00:11:17.040 Okay, okay, so let's walk into the practicalities of that, because there will be lots of people who are watching and listening,

00:11:24.360 who, in principle, would like to discipline themselves.

00:11:27.400 In principle, they'd like to hit the gym and, you know, undergo some physical transformation to make themselves stronger and healthier and more attractive.

00:11:35.700 And, like, I started weightlifting when I was about, let's see, 21, 22, something like that.

00:11:42.320 I was very, very thin and not very strong.

00:11:45.020 And I packed on about 35 pounds of muscle in about two years.

00:11:50.200 I had to eat like a mad dog to do that.

00:11:52.200 And there's a reason I'm telling you this.

00:11:54.940 I mean, because it did a lot of things for me that I didn't understand that weightlifting would do.

00:12:00.580 Now, I used free weights, and one of the things I noticed, apart from the fact that I packed on muscle and was stronger, was that my posture improved a lot.

00:12:08.100 I was starting to get hunched a little bit, because I was tight, sitting and writing a lot.

00:12:11.520 And it pulled my shoulders back up straight.

00:12:15.040 And then it was really good for my coordination, especially my lower body.

00:12:20.180 My legs got a lot more coordinated.

00:12:22.660 And the other thing it did was produce, and I think this went along with the coordination,

00:12:27.180 and maybe that was from working all the little tendons and so forth that you do with free weights.

00:12:31.380 It also made me a lot more physically, like, confident.

00:12:35.540 And I don't think that was nearly as much a consequence of the strength as it was a consequence of the increased coordination.

00:12:44.460 Okay, so back when you were 14, you were already athletic.

00:12:48.460 But you started hitting the gym more thoroughly.

00:12:52.380 Like, what size were you?

00:12:53.940 What height were you when you were 14?

00:12:55.780 How were you built physically when you were that young a teenager?

00:13:00.120 I don't remember my exact size, but I was, like, a lean, skinny kid-ish.

00:13:04.580 I was probably, like, just under 6 foot, maybe 180 pounds, 170 pounds or so.

00:13:09.540 So I was never really small.

00:13:11.360 And even when I graduated high school, I was about 220 pounds.

00:13:14.580 So definitely notice some of the same things as yourself.

00:13:17.420 I was definitely a bit of an anxious kid, quiet and introvert.

00:13:20.620 And going in the gym by myself, playing some music, just enjoying that allowed me to, like, control the outcome of all that.

00:13:26.740 And it was really fun for me.

00:13:27.860 And obviously, like you said, you notice as well, it builds confidence in you.

00:13:31.240 Even just being good at something can build confidence in you.

00:13:33.820 So obviously, that was part of what I started to do.

00:13:36.880 And like I said, you get a little attention from having some muscle at a young age.

00:13:39.600 And that builds a little bit more confidence.

00:13:41.320 And all these things started kind of trickling in my mind, being like, oh, wow, I really like this.

00:13:44.820 I should keep doing.

00:13:45.800 If I do more of it, I'll get more of these good feelings from it.

00:13:48.840 Right, okay.

00:13:49.580 So you were a pretty big kid.

00:13:51.280 You were already 6 feet tall.

00:13:52.940 And you were pretty built.

00:13:54.540 I mean, 180 and 6 feet at 14.

00:13:57.180 So you had the natural physique for this.

00:14:01.740 And then how did you start?

00:14:04.380 Like, had you been a disciplined kid up to then?

00:14:06.700 How had you done in school?

00:14:08.120 Like, were you someone who had regular and good habits?

00:14:11.200 Were you a conscientious person to begin with?

00:14:13.260 You know, I'm kind of wondering how you managed to develop the discipline to start working out in the gym.

00:14:19.580 And how regularly were you?

00:14:22.780 Walk me through how you learned to do this.

00:14:25.360 And step by step, so that people listening could figure out for themselves what they would do if they decided to go to the gym.

00:14:32.580 And also, the obstacles.

00:14:34.520 You know, when I went to the gym, I went at McGill.

00:14:37.780 And like I said, I was very thin.

00:14:39.500 I was about 6 feet tall, but about 135 pounds.

00:14:42.880 Like, very, very thin.

00:14:44.080 And not very strong.

00:14:45.380 And one of the obstacles to me of being in the gym was that...

00:14:48.420 It's embarrassing, even to some degree, to recount.

00:14:53.780 Because when I was there, people would come over and show me how to use the weights.

00:14:59.600 And, you know, that's friendly, but it's also very annoying.

00:15:02.540 And I think I was bench pressing like 75 pounds with some difficulty at that point.

00:15:07.140 And so, you know, that's not very much weight.

00:15:09.540 And so, one of the things you can imagine that when people are going to hit the gym,

00:15:13.620 there's a couple of things, especially if they haven't been athletic,

00:15:16.240 there's a couple of things that are going to be impediments.

00:15:19.440 They're going to be self-conscious.

00:15:20.660 They don't know what the hell they're doing.

00:15:22.220 Plus, hypothetically, they lack discipline.

00:15:24.940 Now, you had the advantages of being slightly, you know, somewhat on the larger side

00:15:30.120 and also being athletic.

00:15:31.740 But how did you develop the discipline?

00:15:33.900 And what impediments did you have to overcome as you were developing that discipline?

00:15:38.840 Yeah.

00:15:39.120 So, I mean, I heard a quote the other day that stuck with me because it thought of me this.

00:15:42.700 It was, you don't start something because you're passionate.

00:15:44.640 You stick with it because you're passionate.

00:15:46.740 So, I kind of just started it.

00:15:48.200 I fell into it naturally.

00:15:49.840 And like I said, as I started to see results and get a little bit more joy out of it,

00:15:53.920 I started to become more passionate and put more effort into it.

00:15:56.500 And every year since I was a child, I've become a little bit more consistent,

00:15:59.940 a little bit more passionate, put a little bit more effort into it.

00:16:02.180 So, my discipline has continued to grow over time

00:16:05.000 because I just stuck with something for a while and want to see how it went.

00:16:08.400 And it just kind of tumble affected.

00:16:10.280 But I definitely had some of the similar feelings.

00:16:11.880 And I hear it from everybody about being a little anxious, being in the gym.

00:16:15.360 And it's funny.

00:16:16.040 It's people will come help you to make you feel comfortable.

00:16:18.200 But like you said, it can almost be demeaning,

00:16:20.080 make you feel a little bit like, all right, you think I need your help?

00:16:22.600 But when I was young, yeah.

00:16:24.540 So, my dad actually had one of those old sand weights.

00:16:27.280 It was like a weeder bar with sand weights in the basement.

00:16:31.060 And I remember setting up some boxes,

00:16:33.360 filling them up with stuff and lying on it and trying to bench press on it

00:16:35.920 because it's hard to balance a bench press at first.

00:16:37.760 Like you talked about the stability and all that.

00:16:40.080 It's difficult.

00:16:40.900 So, I was a young kid in my basement doing that with push-ups and pull-ups.

00:16:44.440 And that's really what got me into the whole weightlifting, building muscle thing.

00:16:48.220 And that was purely, like I mentioned, just to get better at sports.

00:16:51.020 I assumed if I was stronger, I would be better at sports.

00:16:53.840 And then after that, I joined a gym at a young age.

00:16:56.260 It was a summer program that gave kids a free membership over the summer.

00:16:59.960 And I had to ask my parents to come sign me up

00:17:02.240 because you had to be 16 and I was 14.

00:17:03.900 So, they had to come in and sign a waiver for that.

00:17:06.960 And I wasn't the most disciplined kid, for sure.

00:17:09.980 My parents definitely made me independent.

00:17:12.120 And to have some of the free reign that they gave me,

00:17:14.780 to be able to go out with friends and do stuff, I had to earn it.

00:17:16.880 I had to have a job, finish my chores, do my homework and all that stuff.

00:17:19.860 So, my parents definitely raised me to have that kind of mindset.

00:17:23.020 And I grew up in a town with some good kids.

00:17:25.060 Luckily, I didn't get stuck into anything bad.

00:17:27.280 And all my friends were very passionate about sports.

00:17:29.960 And I wanted to excel.

00:17:30.880 So, I kept putting myself in the gym.

00:17:33.340 And at a young age, I remember I didn't have a car or any way to get there all the time.

00:17:37.240 My parents would work late.

00:17:38.100 And I remember I would run, even in the winter in Ottawa.

00:17:40.960 It would be like a foot of snow on the ground and I'd be jogging to the gym.

00:17:43.740 It was about a mile and a half, but still a decent little run in the snow.

00:17:47.980 And I was just super dedicated from a young age because I loved it so much.

00:17:51.360 And as I mentioned, sometimes just being in the gym with my music and that focus

00:17:56.160 was just like a point of solitude for myself to enjoy.

00:17:58.720 And there was a quiet gym, luckily.

00:18:00.900 And I slowly learned over time that no one in the gym is looking at you or judging you.

00:18:05.620 Everybody who's been in there was a beginner at some point.

00:18:08.720 So, they're not looking at you, making fun of you.

00:18:10.700 They were you probably a year or two ago.

00:18:12.600 And everyone's just truly there to help out.

00:18:14.740 And I've discovered that the fitness community in general is a very encouraging community

00:18:19.100 because everybody has the same experience as you.

00:18:21.380 They get in.

00:18:21.980 They feel better.

00:18:22.700 They get some confidence.

00:18:23.560 They're like, this is great.

00:18:24.400 Like, I would love for other people to feel this too.

00:18:26.600 You hope if they're nice enough.

00:18:27.840 And that typically allows them to be very inclusive and want people to come and join

00:18:31.800 and just be a part of it all.

00:18:33.440 So, I found it's not a judgmental that people think once you're in it.

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00:20:15.940 Right, well, that's a really good point, you know, because part of being self-conscious

00:20:21.940 in the gym is, and this is true for overweight people and for anybody who's out of shape or

00:20:29.300 for anybody who just doesn't know what they're doing, which is pretty much everybody when

00:20:32.720 they go to the gym the first time, especially if they don't have a, as we pointed out, a

00:20:36.560 history of athleticism.

00:20:37.800 It's very easy to think that these people who are throwing the weights around in there

00:20:41.300 are judgmental.

00:20:44.180 You know, it's really a consequence of your own self-consciousness and proclivity to self-judgment.

00:20:51.020 But, you know, the fact that those people are in there working on themselves does indicate

00:20:55.740 very clearly through their actions that they believe that they still have work to do.

00:21:01.240 And as you said, the probability that many of them who are in there, or perhaps all of

00:21:06.480 them to some degree, were in the same boat as you at some point is very, very high.

00:21:10.580 You know, and it was certainly the case that the people who were coming over to help me

00:21:13.520 weren't doing it in a judgmental way.

00:21:16.840 You know, that was my problem.

00:21:18.040 And there's another thing to concentrate on there, too.

00:21:20.840 You know, one of the things that one of my favorite thinkers, psychoanalyst Carl Jung pointed

00:21:27.940 out, was very, very helpful to me to understand, was that he said the precursor to the Redeemer

00:21:33.960 is the fool.

00:21:35.580 And what he meant by that was that if you're going to master something, the first thing you

00:21:42.880 have to do is admit to yourself that you're not a master of it already, because then you

00:21:48.620 wouldn't have to do anything.

00:21:49.540 So you have to allow yourself to be the fool.

00:21:52.980 And, you know, one of the things I've noticed about people who are highly successful is that

00:21:57.800 they will jump into new things that they don't know anything about and be the fool.

00:22:02.620 Be the person who doesn't know anything.

00:22:04.300 Be the person who's low man on the totem pole.

00:22:06.860 Start at the lowest rung.

00:22:08.580 And they won't pretend to know more than they do know.

00:22:12.120 They ask the stupid questions that are necessary.

00:22:14.600 They humble themselves in accordance with their novice position.

00:22:20.180 They accept that weight.

00:22:21.840 But they also do so in the understanding that if they're honest with themselves, they can

00:22:26.880 make the kind of incremental progress that you described, right?

00:22:30.040 Because you said you got more and more disciplined as the years went by.

00:22:33.360 And that it doesn't matter if you start at the bottom.

00:22:37.460 What matters is that you're so stupid and blind that you refuse to learn and that you stay

00:22:42.940 there, right?

00:22:44.080 So it's trajectory that matters and not absolute position.

00:22:48.540 And so that's a useful thing for people to know.

00:22:51.180 It's like, of course, you feel like a bloody fool when you do something the first time.

00:22:54.500 What the hell do you expect?

00:22:56.540 Like, you are a fool, but that doesn't mean that you can't move beyond that.

00:23:02.220 Yeah.

00:23:02.520 Yeah.

00:23:02.660 No, you touched on something great there when you're expanding.

00:23:05.180 If it's something that makes you feel worried or anxious or you're thinking other people

00:23:08.980 are judging you, it's probably actually a reflection of yourself, something that you need

00:23:12.140 to grow on.

00:23:13.340 And that's something that I really noticed because I used to be super anxious in public

00:23:17.160 speaking.

00:23:18.020 And I remember you've done a lot of talks on fear immersion and stepping into it and the

00:23:21.200 confidence that can build.

00:23:22.740 And I didn't really understand this whole mindset of all the confidence that would come

00:23:26.620 from that.

00:23:27.180 But I would always do podcasts or public speaking or I started to get in some seminar events

00:23:31.380 or being asked to come talk from my success as a bodybuilder.

00:23:34.280 And every time I went there, I'd be Mr. Olympia walking into this thing, terrified out of

00:23:39.520 my mind, like hands shaking, stumbling my words.

00:23:42.200 And I still feel like that sometimes, but I've gotten better.

00:23:44.340 But I realized I took a step back after a few times.

00:23:46.960 I'm like, all right, this is something I need to put myself into more to become better at

00:23:51.120 it.

00:23:51.240 And I started to actually plan my events to be more talking based, sign up for a few

00:23:55.880 more requests to talk a little bit more in front of people.

00:23:58.400 And it was terrifying at first.

00:23:59.700 And I still embarrass myself sometimes.

00:24:01.720 I still have memories standing on stage stuttering or my list comes out really bad and feeling

00:24:06.260 embarrassed and getting off stage.

00:24:07.920 But I also have a lot of memories now where I've killed the good talk and I've stepped

00:24:11.100 off stage feeling so confident.

00:24:13.300 And over that realm of me becoming better at something I wasn't good at, I noticed my confidence

00:24:17.980 in all aspects of my life started to increase, not just in public speaking.

00:24:21.780 So I think that being able to have that humility, like you said, look at yourself, be the fool

00:24:26.020 and understand where you need to grow and put yourself into positions to grow is something

00:24:29.800 that has helped me immensely and something I've taken from some of your words in the past

00:24:33.820 too.

00:24:35.480 Yeah, well, let's delve into that a little bit because we can imagine your situation, you

00:24:40.400 know, like you're a big guy and you're better built than anyone else in the world,

00:24:44.320 arguably.

00:24:44.700 And so what people would assume looking at you, it's the halo effect.

00:24:49.980 Like if you see someone who's attractive and who's in very good physical shape and who's

00:24:53.380 strong, you're going to assume automatically that every other good thing that's confident

00:24:59.200 goes along with that.

00:25:00.720 So that actually puts you as a, you know, that puts you in a kind of a double bind because

00:25:06.520 not only do you have to get up and speak publicly, but people are going to assume a priori

00:25:12.320 that, well, you've got this, like why the hell would someone like that be worried about

00:25:15.580 it?

00:25:15.760 And so, and you are worried about it as, and public speaking is something that does

00:25:19.860 terrify people.

00:25:20.620 It's, it's one of the most highly cited, it's fear of public exposure, right?

00:25:24.640 And fear of making a fool of yourself and, and being, and being judged harshly by a lot

00:25:30.980 of people and following and falling in status because of it.

00:25:33.800 It's a major league fear now, but so, so you had reasons to be afraid.

00:25:38.980 Now you said that you had decided to voluntarily confront that regardless.

00:25:43.860 And there's a real key lesson there because one of the things that's been extraordinarily

00:25:48.240 well-documented among psychologists and, and well, we'll stick with psychologists who deal

00:25:55.520 with anxiety is that the, the universal pathway to overcoming anxiety is to voluntarily face

00:26:03.120 what you're afraid of in graduated doses has to be voluntary.

00:26:07.760 Can't be accidental.

00:26:08.880 You have to, you have, and that's partly a mindset issue.

00:26:11.520 And you know, that mindset goes very, very deep.

00:26:14.060 It's not just something that you think when you decide that you're going to confront something

00:26:20.700 voluntarily, you change, you probably change yourself all the way down past the cellular level.

00:26:29.540 You, you change the way that genes code for proteins.

00:26:35.220 You change the way your cells operate.

00:26:37.320 You change the way the neurons communicate, like everything about you changes and what you're

00:26:42.920 doing, what you did, let's say with public speaking is not only did you develop the skillset

00:26:49.860 that was associated with public speaking, and we can go into that a bit more, but you simultaneously

00:26:55.460 develop the part of you that is capable at the physical and the psychological level of confronting

00:27:04.140 everything that's frightening as such.

00:27:07.780 You know, it's so cool because it means that you can, what you do with people in therapy,

00:27:11.880 when you do exposure therapy, which is essentially what you did, let's say, when you decided to

00:27:17.060 arrange for yourself more and more demanding speaking opportunities, is that you, you don't

00:27:25.620 become less afraid exactly.

00:27:27.120 You become braver and braver and braver.

00:27:29.360 And that's different, right?

00:27:30.420 Because you're always going to be facing challenges that are beyond you to some degree.

00:27:34.120 There's always a reason to be terrified into paralysis, but you can learn to be a more courageous

00:27:41.240 person.

00:27:41.740 And that's not just an attitude.

00:27:43.260 Like I said, it changes you at every single level of your being, like really all the way

00:27:48.140 down to the molecular.

00:27:49.180 There's a lot of work done on this now in a field called epigenetics.

00:27:53.240 There's even some possibility, like this is, you know, more on the edge, but there is some

00:27:59.340 possibility.

00:28:00.240 Some of the changes that you can make behaviorally can change you so profoundly genetically that

00:28:07.720 those changes can be transmitted to your children, let's say.

00:28:11.460 So, you know, that's really something that that's about as profound a change as you could

00:28:16.120 possibly imagine.

00:28:17.140 So let's, let's talk about your experience with your experiences with public speaking.

00:28:21.660 So you, you mentioned that there were, tell me exactly if you would, what it is that you

00:28:26.660 were afraid of to begin with, what, what would go, what were the thoughts that would go through

00:28:30.840 your mind that were, that were intimidating?

00:28:33.240 I mean, definitely, as anyone can imagine, when you put yourself in front of a bunch of

00:28:39.380 people, you're in a position to be judged.

00:28:41.140 It's a very vulnerable spot.

00:28:42.880 And I can't really pinpoint exactly where it came from, but I have some minor memories from

00:28:47.220 a child in front of a class or something like that being super embarrassed and sweating.

00:28:51.600 But I do think a lot of it comes from, I have a speech impediment.

00:28:54.640 I've had a lisp since I was young.

00:28:56.520 And when I get nervous, it gets worse.

00:28:57.980 And when I was younger, it was much worse.

00:28:59.380 So I used to be teased for that a little bit, which made me, I'm sure, much more quiet and

00:29:03.560 introvert and just not wanting to talk.

00:29:05.400 So not wanting to talk around anyone, obviously, is much scared to talk around a large group

00:29:09.000 of people.

00:29:09.980 So now standing on top of people, my mouth will get really dry.

00:29:13.480 I'll start to be like, my tongue will stick out of my mouth.

00:29:15.240 I'm like, oh my God, I'm going to sound dumb.

00:29:16.520 People are going to laugh at me and judge me.

00:29:18.200 And it led to this kind of spiraling effect.

00:29:20.400 And you really hit the nail on the head when you talked about the visual persona I give off when

00:29:25.360 someone sees me or hears about my career or something.

00:29:27.480 They already have an expectation of who I am.

00:29:30.120 And that's something that I've worked on a lot in the past couple of years of this differentiation

00:29:34.560 with my therapist who's helped me with this between what I would call CBOM versus Christopher

00:29:39.580 and the difference of what people expect me to be, what I think people expect of me and

00:29:43.400 who I should be versus who I really am.

00:29:45.640 And allowing myself to be that person who is a little bit scared, anxious, has a lisp,

00:29:50.000 can step on stage and kind of embarrass himself a little bit.

00:29:52.640 So that's something I've worked on in this public speaking with part of that process of

00:29:56.100 working on all that.

00:29:57.480 But overall, before getting up there, hands would be shaking, heart would be racing.

00:30:01.980 I wouldn't even have concrete thoughts if these people are going to think this about me.

00:30:05.180 It was just like nerves, kind of like almost black, almost like blacking out nerves, just

00:30:09.560 like, oh God, here we go.

00:30:10.620 I got to do this.

00:30:11.900 And as you mentioned, voluntarily doing it is the whole secret to it.

00:30:15.740 So when I started taking those nerves and those butterflies and that kind of feeling in

00:30:20.500 my heart as a good sign of the chance for growth and changing my perception, I'm okay, me feeling

00:30:25.400 this right now, if I step into this, this is giving myself an opportunity to grow and

00:30:28.720 become something better.

00:30:29.680 So try and enjoy that a little bit more.

00:30:31.700 You know, this is the feelings of racing in your heart, of being fear, scared, all these

00:30:36.100 things.

00:30:36.420 It's part of the human experience.

00:30:38.320 And I think feeling anything is something great, better than feeling nothing at all.

00:30:41.460 So I started to kind of try and enjoy it and be excited for what would result of it.

00:30:45.020 And that's kind of continuously helped.

00:30:48.180 And obviously, when you're stepping on stage, if your goal is for people to like you, I've

00:30:53.620 heard someone in the past say, I believe they said, then you're putting your self-worth

00:30:56.660 on the line.

00:30:57.400 You're giving your self-worth an issue to be judged.

00:31:00.180 First, if you step on stage and your only goal is to be yourself, then it doesn't matter

00:31:04.280 if they accept you or not, because you can succeed just by being yourself.

00:31:07.440 And that kind of leads to even more self-confidence.

00:31:09.860 Obviously, it's a better goal to just be who you are rather than have people like you.

00:31:13.560 But it leads to a lot more fulfilled happiness rather than a false sense of reality of people

00:31:17.980 liking a false sense of yourself.

00:31:19.720 So that was a huge process of what I kind of stepped through and all that.

00:31:23.700 And like you said, you don't get less scared.

00:31:26.060 You get more brave.

00:31:27.040 Even before getting on the podcast, I was a little bit nervous.

00:31:29.400 I still get nervous now.

00:31:30.940 And I just, I believe in myself more.

00:31:33.040 I have more confidence from my track record in the history, and I'm more brave to step into

00:31:36.520 it a little bit more.

00:31:37.620 Okay, so you covered a bunch of things there that I think are interesting and worth delving

00:31:42.100 into.

00:31:42.380 It's like, okay, what do you want when you step on stage?

00:31:46.280 So let's say, well, you want people to like you.

00:31:48.300 It's like, well, what the hell do you mean by that, first of all?

00:31:50.780 It's like, which people?

00:31:52.520 And does that mean that you're going to present a false front so that they like that?

00:31:58.960 Because that isn't you.

00:32:00.900 So if they like that false front, you haven't been humiliated.

00:32:04.860 I mean, you've definitely circumvented that.

00:32:06.840 But it's not like you've got people to like you because they don't know who you are.

00:32:10.520 So that's not a really good victory.

00:32:12.760 Like, I mean, I understand why people might want to craft what they're going to say so

00:32:17.700 they don't fail cataclysmically.

00:32:19.760 But that's also not how you ever succeed as a public speaker.

00:32:23.540 No, like, so when I go out on stage, I wouldn't say I'm nervous about it anymore.

00:32:28.240 But I've done it so much now, you know, and it's certainly it takes a very long time before

00:32:33.440 you won't be nervous at all.

00:32:35.400 It's not like I'm not pumped up and also excited.

00:32:41.100 See, that's another thing you said is that you want to get yourself into the frame of reference

00:32:48.960 where you're primarily grateful for the opportunity and you're excited about it, like both of those.

00:32:56.940 So like when I'm going out on stage, my wife does this too.

00:32:59.840 Like we always take a moment or two to remember how bloody unlikely it is that there's all these

00:33:06.900 people gathered there to hear us talk and remember the fact that they're actually there because

00:33:12.680 they want to see success, not failure.

00:33:15.640 And so that allows you to step on stage, not with a mindset of suspicion and paranoia and

00:33:25.520 distrust of the audience, which is part of the fear of being judged, but the recognition that

00:33:31.140 you're among people who wish you well, which is certainly going to be the case for you in most

00:33:35.760 of the places that you're speaking.

00:33:37.660 And anyone who isn't there for that reason, they're the sort of mean-spirited person you

00:33:41.380 shouldn't really care about, shouldn't really care about what they think anyways.

00:33:44.560 And then with regards to what you're going to say, you know, if you're concentrating on

00:33:51.540 how it is that people are reacting to you, then you're going to craft your words as you

00:33:58.920 pointed out, so they like you.

00:34:00.520 But that's a false game.

00:34:01.840 You know, you could just, and this works like a charm as far as I'm concerned, is you could

00:34:07.540 just determine that you're going to say what you believe to be true.

00:34:13.780 It's way simpler.

00:34:15.460 Like you might get into trouble for it right now and then because you're going to say things

00:34:19.000 that, you know, maybe some of the audience doesn't want to hear.

00:34:21.780 But this is where you have to decide what you're going to put your faith in, you know?

00:34:26.880 Like when I'm on stage, when I'm talking to people, as far as I can manage, all I'm trying

00:34:32.560 to do is to say what I believe to be true and try to make my thoughts clearer.

00:34:37.300 And the thing that's so fun about that is that if I'm trying to make my thoughts clearer

00:34:42.360 to myself, I'm simultaneously doing the same thing for the audience.

00:34:46.620 If I'm trying to track the truth as I speak and move forward, then they can come along with

00:34:52.720 me and then the whole thing works out.

00:34:54.200 It just strips all the deception out of it.

00:34:58.040 You know, and Chris, one of the things too that I used to tell my socially anxious clients

00:35:03.040 or help them conceptualize is that if you go to a party and you're nervous, you're primarily

00:35:09.920 concerned about whether or not you're at ease, like you're concerned about your mental state.

00:35:15.560 But if you go to a party and you're focused on making other people comfortable and welcome,

00:35:21.660 well, first of all, they'll be really bloody happy about you because you'll be attending

00:35:27.000 to them.

00:35:27.440 But the fact that you're attending to them stops that self-consciousness.

00:35:32.440 It's about the only thing I know that really works because you can't tell yourself just

00:35:35.680 not to be self-conscious.

00:35:37.540 And so when you're going now, like when you're going on stage or even when you're going on

00:35:42.760 a podcast, let's say, what is it that you've learned to focus on?

00:35:47.320 Because you're, hypothetically, you're not focusing on your sweaty hands.

00:35:51.620 You're not focusing on your, you know, because you said most of your responses are physiological

00:35:55.580 rather than thought-based in terms of what's the manifestation of the fear.

00:36:02.180 What are you now focused on when you're trying to communicate?

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00:37:11.900 I mean, part of stepping on stage, at least, as I kind of mentioned, I actually am focusing

00:37:19.240 on that physical part.

00:37:21.260 There was a quote from Tim Grover to Michael Jordan from when he was younger, talking about

00:37:25.560 instead of trying to fight the butterflies, just send them in the right direction.

00:37:29.140 So when I start to feel those butterflies in my stomach and a little nervous, it's like,

00:37:32.020 all right, you know, this is because changing my frame of mind rather than fear.

00:37:35.920 I'm feeling these because I've worked really hard to be here.

00:37:39.120 I'm very excited to be here.

00:37:40.820 And I'm sure you know, anxiousness and excitement are almost the same thing.

00:37:45.460 So if I can like allow myself to believe how hard I've worked to be in this exact position,

00:37:50.540 how long I've waited to hear.

00:37:51.780 And of course, I feel nervous and excited because this is really important to me.

00:37:55.880 So feel all these feelings right now because I compete once a year.

00:37:59.780 So all my year is working towards that one day.

00:38:02.040 And on that day, I want to feel everything I can rather than numb anything out and avoid it.

00:38:06.460 So I'm like, this is part of this experience that I'm going to remember.

00:38:08.900 Feeling nervous.

00:38:10.060 And I've done this.

00:38:10.900 The history helps me.

00:38:12.060 I've done this five times.

00:38:13.460 I've won seven times.

00:38:14.320 I've been on the stage.

00:38:15.260 Now I can step on the stage with experience and I can have these nerves and the nerves are

00:38:18.940 going to fade and I'm going to be left out there purely being present and joyful, feeling

00:38:23.380 all of it.

00:38:24.240 And I've just had that experience to go through it.

00:38:27.160 And a lot of it has come from doing it numerous times.

00:38:30.420 The work I'm doing outside, believing in myself and that kind of change of frame.

00:38:35.320 And I mean, the understanding that fear, anxious and excitement are so similar that you don't

00:38:40.100 need to focus on it being anxiety and bad.

00:38:42.480 Rather, it could be a good thing.

00:38:45.100 Yeah.

00:38:45.300 Well, okay.

00:38:46.220 So when you confront something new, let's say an opportunity on stage, especially if it's

00:38:51.920 a high stakes opportunity, what your body basically does is put itself in a position

00:38:56.560 where you're more primed to do everything.

00:39:00.960 And the physiologist, psychophysiologist calls that heightened non-specific arousal.

00:39:08.520 Right?

00:39:08.760 And so that's really what you're referring to.

00:39:10.340 And what your body is doing is it's saying, well, this is a complex situation.

00:39:14.140 God only knows what you're going to be called upon to do.

00:39:17.680 So let's just crank everything up so that you can respond rapidly if that's necessary.

00:39:22.620 And that can easily tilt into anxiety or it can shade into excitement.

00:39:27.720 It's much more likely to tilt into anxiety if you start to get afraid of those responses.

00:39:34.480 Right?

00:39:34.700 So you've learned to reframe them, you know, as the kind of excitement that you described.

00:39:39.020 People fall into these feedback loops.

00:39:41.520 This is what produces panic, by the way, where you're afraid.

00:39:44.720 You see that you're afraid, or at least you interpret that emotional state, let's say,

00:39:49.500 as fear.

00:39:49.860 Or you get afraid of the fear, that makes the fear mount.

00:39:54.720 Then you get more afraid of that because the fear is mounted more and you just spiral.

00:39:58.860 Right?

00:39:59.020 And that can turn into a full-blown panic attack.

00:40:02.440 And so, okay, so you've learned instead to attend to that and to, I would say, interpret

00:40:10.340 it in the best possible light.

00:40:12.020 Right?

00:40:12.180 It's a realistic light, but it's the best possible light.

00:40:14.280 And you also pointed to something else that everyone should know.

00:40:16.540 See, here is one of the things that people do that tilts them very hard toward maintaining

00:40:23.460 or increasing a phobia or even something like fear of public speaking.

00:40:28.020 So as you're approaching your debut on stage, let's say, that tendency for arousal is going

00:40:36.080 to increase.

00:40:36.880 And it's going to increase to a maximum, generally, right before the event begins.

00:40:44.800 Now, I'm sure you've observed this.

00:40:47.600 If you don't run during that period, see, if you run during that period, then you've learned

00:40:53.100 that the event is terrifying.

00:40:54.280 If you wait that out and you actually go ahead with the event, what you'll find almost inevitably

00:41:02.680 is that that high level of arousal will decrease once the event begins.

00:41:09.080 And then you can see, you've learned, like through practical experience, that if you just

00:41:14.460 withstand the anxiety, it will decrease.

00:41:19.820 Now, you made allusion to the fact that even in the bodybuilding competitions where you're

00:41:26.960 not speaking, yeah, yeah, maybe you can differentiate that for us.

00:41:31.400 I mean, you said to some degree that you were worried about being judged as a speaker.

00:41:37.480 But then, of course, when you're on the stage, you're being judged on the basis of your physique

00:41:42.800 and your performance.

00:41:43.660 And so, obviously, it isn't judgment per se that's causing you to be nervous.

00:41:49.680 It's more, and that's where you referred it to some of the things that had happened in

00:41:53.400 your childhood, for example.

00:41:54.960 You know, a proclivity for a lisp a bit and the fact that you had experienced some public

00:42:00.440 humiliation.

00:42:02.400 It doesn't take much for a kid, by the way, especially when they're, you know, standing

00:42:05.860 up in front of a class.

00:42:07.020 One bad experience like that could color you for quite a long time.

00:42:10.240 How do you differentiate between what you feel when you're on the stage, when you're

00:42:17.460 being judged on the basis of your physique and your work compared to being evaluated with

00:42:23.840 regard to speaking?

00:42:24.980 How are those different for you?

00:42:28.560 I mean, when I was younger and I first started competing, I felt a lot more nerves, but I

00:42:34.100 didn't do any public speaking events.

00:42:35.660 So, it's hard for me to compare that.

00:42:37.140 I mean, you can actually look back to my Olympia speech in 2019 when I won my first

00:42:42.840 Olympia and I like blurted some stuff out, didn't know what to say, was like, oh, but

00:42:47.060 I felt super confident while on stage.

00:42:49.580 So, when I started, there was more experience I had in the bodybuilding aspect, a lot more

00:42:55.420 experience of that compared to public speaking.

00:42:57.680 So, my anxiety and work on public speaking really only started to progress in the last

00:43:01.420 two years where I've had the last 10 years of competing to work on that.

00:43:05.040 So, right now, I definitely still have nerves in both, but they're much less in bodybuilding

00:43:09.760 and I'm much more able to change that frame of mind, like I mentioned, of being able to

00:43:15.500 enjoy that excitement rather than be worried about it.

00:43:17.960 And it feels easier for me to perform physically and get on stage and do what I need to do rather

00:43:22.400 than start to pull my thoughts together and speak and all that stuff.

00:43:26.060 I'll notice I'll get a lot more tongue twisted than I will mess up my posing on stage.

00:43:29.900 So, definitely more difficult speaking, but as you said, that fear of judgment feeling

00:43:35.240 on stage, I do get a little bit on both.

00:43:37.600 But now, the bodybuilding aspect has transferred a little bit more into pressure and expectation

00:43:42.340 because when I was younger, I felt it, but it was a little bit different because I was

00:43:46.240 just new and nervous, but I was the underdog and no one really cared.

00:43:49.620 There was nothing expected of me.

00:43:51.140 So, I was just feeling a youthful nervousness.

00:43:55.120 And then now, when I get up there, sometimes it's like, okay, people are actually here to

00:43:59.280 see me now and expecting me to be the best in the world.

00:44:01.600 There is a standard that I have to withhold and anything less than that.

00:44:04.900 If I come second place, that's bad now.

00:44:07.000 Whereas when I was younger, if I came second place, that's amazing.

00:44:09.220 So, any kind of movement backwards, it's just more pressure.

00:44:12.380 So, that's a different style of expectation and pressure, I feel, from being on stage versus

00:44:17.320 the actual fear of failure when I'm speaking.

00:44:22.060 Right, right.

00:44:22.760 Well, okay.

00:44:23.260 So, there's a couple of things there.

00:44:24.640 The first is that, you know, your comfort on stage performing professionally was proportionate

00:44:34.840 to some degree to your degree of experience and also, to some degree, proportionate to

00:44:40.400 your success, right?

00:44:41.500 Because you could imagine that as you got more successful, you got more confident.

00:44:45.220 But, you know, you're pointing to something else that's a little deeper than that, too,

00:44:48.360 which is you don't want to be deluding yourself into thinking that you're ever going to get

00:44:53.240 to a point where you have nothing on the line and you're just without fear.

00:44:57.340 That's why it's so much better to practice being brave than it is to assume that conquering

00:45:03.500 fear means absence of fear.

00:45:05.280 That isn't what it means.

00:45:06.360 It means getting better and better at being able to deal with fear.

00:45:09.500 Because, you know, one of the perverse things you're pointing to is that, you know, someone

00:45:12.960 seeing this from the outside might think, well, you know, what the hell does Chris have

00:45:18.060 to worry about?

00:45:18.700 I mean, he's already hit the peak of his profession.

00:45:21.060 Of course, he can go out on stage and be confident.

00:45:24.140 There's nothing brave about that because he's in an optimized position.

00:45:28.220 But, you know, you're giving us a viewpoint from inside, which is, yeah, but the stakes

00:45:32.260 have changed now.

00:45:33.240 The situation's different.

00:45:34.840 And the downside consequences are different than they were.

00:45:39.140 And so, see, I've seen this often.

00:45:42.040 One of the things I saw among professors and students was that they would falsify the way

00:45:53.140 they presented themselves, what they said, what they wrote, because they weren't in a

00:45:57.660 secure position.

00:45:59.340 So an undergraduate would write a false paper for a professor because they had to get the

00:46:03.940 grade.

00:46:04.940 And then as a graduate student, they'd write, they wouldn't say what they really meant in

00:46:09.760 a seminar because they didn't want to cause trouble with people who might write them letters

00:46:13.200 of reference.

00:46:13.900 And then when they became junior professors, well, they didn't have tenure yet, so they

00:46:17.480 still couldn't say what they thought.

00:46:19.260 And then the next rung of professorship, well, that's not all the way to the top.

00:46:24.080 So there's still something to sacrifice.

00:46:26.520 And people would falsify themselves, you know, and it was based, what they would tell themselves

00:46:33.440 is once I get into a position of security, I'll be comfortable with who I am and what I think

00:46:39.700 and what I have to say, and then I'll start speaking.

00:46:42.440 But the lie about that is that you're never going to get yourself in a position where security

00:46:47.320 makes you brave.

00:46:48.760 That isn't how life works.

00:46:50.460 Security doesn't make you brave.

00:46:52.220 What makes you brave is the decision that you're going to confront things that you're

00:46:55.500 afraid of.

00:46:56.640 And even six, like the people I know that are radically successful, and obviously you're

00:47:01.420 one of them in your domain, it's not like they're now bereft of challenges.

00:47:09.340 Like in some ways, the challenges actually get bigger, you know, when you're playing a

00:47:13.220 higher stakes game.

00:47:15.020 So, and I'm saying this, as you know, is to let everybody know that you're never going

00:47:21.680 to be in a situation if you're, especially if you're pushing yourself forward, where you're

00:47:26.340 not confronting something that is a genuine threat and a genuine challenge.

00:47:32.500 And you should, you can get yourself in a place where you're actually happy about that.

00:47:37.420 You know, so why do you keep, let's delve into that a little bit.

00:47:40.940 You've won five championships, right?

00:47:43.380 And so one of the questions that someone might ask is, well, why continue?

00:47:48.520 Like, why do you continue to do this?

00:47:50.500 What's driving you forward still?

00:47:52.920 I mean, it's a great question.

00:47:55.620 And it's one I've, I've been honestly asking myself for the past couple of years, especially

00:47:59.660 this year, there's been times where the risk versus reward hasn't felt like it's all there

00:48:05.460 for me.

00:48:06.160 And, you know, now my wife is pregnant, I'm having a child, life's changing, I'm getting

00:48:10.220 older, there's a lot of stuff coming into my life.

00:48:12.240 And I've been asking myself that a lot.

00:48:14.460 And it's definitely, it's not so much being a champion that I love.

00:48:20.180 And I have this thing called champion mentality.

00:48:22.360 And I say how it's not about the trophies or the medals around your neck.

00:48:25.060 It's kind of more about the person I've become in this journey.

00:48:28.780 And I've heard you speak a lot about how humans take value from the uphill climb.

00:48:33.180 You know, we, it's finding a new challenge, climbing that mountain.

00:48:35.900 That's where we find value and growth in ourselves.

00:48:38.300 And I've almost become addicted or just fallen in love with the self-discovery and growth that

00:48:44.400 I have discovered through bodybuilding.

00:48:46.000 By pushing my limits physically and mentally, by going through states of suffering, overcoming

00:48:51.520 these odds that hit me at the worst times, and being able to see how far I can take a

00:48:55.640 goal and how far I can push myself, I've fallen in love with that growth that has come with

00:49:00.020 that.

00:49:00.740 And so that's continuously what pushes me.

00:49:03.320 And we spoke about the feelings I have on stage.

00:49:08.420 And I think a lot of successful people and myself have gotten really good at things for

00:49:12.360 our ability to compartmentalize and to suppress things and continue to work as things are

00:49:16.880 going on.

00:49:17.840 But what I realized from a young age was that if I suppress things, compartmentalize and

00:49:21.740 push them to the side for too long without keeping them back up, I start to suppress

00:49:25.380 everything.

00:49:26.540 So the kind of thing I said at the end of this year was if you numb the bad, you numb the

00:49:29.900 good.

00:49:30.160 You start to numb your whole life and you start to feel less and be less present.

00:49:33.720 And I didn't want to be that person anymore.

00:49:35.460 So partway through my career, I was like, I'm winning.

00:49:38.780 But what I feel is relief that it's over at the end.

00:49:40.980 I want to feel joy.

00:49:42.400 I want to feel the fear and anxiety before and the joy afterwards, all of it rather than

00:49:46.840 nothing.

00:49:47.560 So that was a huge transition that I've pushed through in the last few years.

00:49:51.440 And it's pretty cool because I've documented a lot of my preps.

00:49:55.420 My friend Calvin here has been my videographer through everything.

00:49:58.840 And you can see almost a shift in previous years of where I was a lot more stoic and hard

00:50:02.640 faced to being a little bit more lighthearted and laughing and joyful, hanging out with people

00:50:06.840 backstage before getting on stage because I'm really present and enjoying all that.

00:50:10.380 And that's because when challenges come up in the middle of prep, which they always

00:50:14.240 have, I tore my lat, I injured myself this year.

00:50:17.080 I have an autoimmune disease as well, which has affected me in the past.

00:50:19.980 And having to overcome those things, if I allow myself to feel that fear and stress and sadness

00:50:25.140 and let out my tears and cry with my girlfriend who's supporting me or my wife now and be able

00:50:29.600 to move through that, then when I'm in a position of joy and success, I feel way more joy

00:50:34.360 and success.

00:50:35.360 I'm able to embrace all that a lot more.

00:50:37.240 So that's part of the personal growth that I've discovered through bodybuilding.

00:50:41.420 And obviously, I'm only 28 years old.

00:50:43.920 I know there's so much more for me to discover.

00:50:46.060 Part of me is almost worried.

00:50:47.340 If I step away from this mountain, am I going to have something challenging enough to continue

00:50:52.460 to push myself enough to grow?

00:50:54.360 And obviously, I believe there is, especially fatherhood is going to be a whole new challenge

00:50:58.960 that will teach me a whole new lesson.

00:51:00.220 Yep, yep, yep, definitely.

00:51:01.280 But honestly, even a question I could ask you is, because I touched on, you've mentioned

00:51:07.480 it's the uphill battle that brings value.

00:51:09.820 And when you reach the pinnacle of that mountain, what you want to see is another higher mountain

00:51:13.680 in the distance for you to accomplish.

00:51:16.460 But what do you do when the previous years have felt like Mount Everest and there's a lot

00:51:23.740 of suffering, a lot of difficulties, a lot of pain you've had to push through, a lot

00:51:27.120 of joy as well.

00:51:28.200 But you almost want to step back and be like, okay, do I need to find a higher mountain than

00:51:32.240 this, a more difficult challenge to continue to grow and to find more value?

00:51:36.440 Or can I maybe find a more lateral mountain, a sideways movement rather than an upward movement?

00:51:41.940 And I mean, that's a question where I...

00:51:43.940 Well, I think some of it, look, you could imagine that there are a variety of really quite qualitatively

00:51:53.760 different mountains to climb.

00:51:55.560 The height might not be so much the issue, although it's one issue, as the diversity of

00:52:00.940 the climb.

00:52:01.580 So imagine there's two ways of making progress, right?

00:52:03.720 You can go up a more and more difficult terrain, which you've already done with the Olympia contest.

00:52:08.880 You went up a very difficult mountain, a very steep mountain, all the way to the top.

00:52:12.160 But then, you know, now you're at the pinnacle, you could look around and you could see, oh,

00:52:16.540 well, there's all sorts of different places to climb, okay?

00:52:20.580 And one way of becoming a better person is to do something very difficult and to attain

00:52:26.180 a pinnacle.

00:52:26.700 But another way to become a good person, like a fully-fledged person, is to take on a lot

00:52:31.880 of different challenges.

00:52:34.000 And you don't have to be...

00:52:35.840 Like every single challenge that you're going to undertake doesn't necessarily have to be

00:52:42.020 another Mount Everest, right?

00:52:43.360 Because there's something to be said for many different climbs.

00:52:47.100 Now, in your own life, you know, you mentioned two things that are right there in front of you.

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00:54:08.780 I mean, the first is that you're going to be a father.

00:54:13.300 Okay, well, that's going to keep you busy.

00:54:17.140 Like, that's a bottomless well.

00:54:19.280 You know, it's an opportunity and a challenge, and there's no limit to how good you could become

00:54:25.400 at that, right?

00:54:26.280 There's no limit to how good a mentor you could be to your son or your daughter.

00:54:30.780 There's no limit to how good a relationship you could establish with them if you made that a priority.

00:54:38.380 So, you know, that's something right there.

00:54:40.540 That could easily occupy like a third of your life because it's a big deal.

00:54:44.280 And that area of opportunity will grow up even more if you have more kids, right?

00:54:50.560 Because, well, then there's more challenges of that sort.

00:54:53.300 And then you also have your marriage, right?

00:54:56.720 And that's something, one of the things I've discovered with my wife, and this has really

00:55:01.260 become more tangible for us in the last few years because both of us almost died.

00:55:07.300 And not just a little bit, like brutally and over, you know, months and years.

00:55:12.960 It was very rough.

00:55:14.200 And one of the consequences of that was, like, we were apart, really, because of our illnesses,

00:55:22.760 various illnesses.

00:55:23.660 We were apart for something approximating two to three years, depending on how you look at it.

00:55:29.140 And we grew apart during that period, as you do, because that's a long time.

00:55:33.000 Um, but we've found new depths to our relationship that we didn't know were achievable in the

00:55:43.800 aftermath of that.

00:55:44.720 And so I think there's, there's no end to the depth.

00:55:49.560 There's no end to the mountain that you can climb with your wife.

00:55:52.760 And that's even more true once you have kids together.

00:55:55.200 So you've got that.

00:55:56.700 Now, you also said you're working on your ability as a public communicator.

00:56:03.920 Well, that's something that's there for you because you've already got a huge following.

00:56:08.060 You know, people are interested in you because you've mastered a particular discipline.

00:56:12.120 And so you have the opportunity to continue to do good on that front that would be proportionate

00:56:18.540 to your developing ability to express yourself.

00:56:21.500 And so, you know, we have this program online called Future Authoring.

00:56:27.900 It's at selfauthoring.com.

00:56:30.180 And we try to help walk people through the problem we're discussing with that program.

00:56:36.460 So this is how it works.

00:56:38.860 We might as well walk through this a little bit.

00:56:40.460 This is how it works generically.

00:56:43.860 It's like, okay, imagine yourself five years in the future.

00:56:47.420 Okay, now here's the deal and here are the conditions.

00:56:53.060 The condition is you have to imagine yourself as if you were trying to take care of yourself

00:57:01.880 like you were someone you cared for.

00:57:04.320 So you could imagine someone you care for, like your wife maybe, and you could think,

00:57:08.600 okay, if I cared for myself like I cared for someone I love, what would I want for myself

00:57:14.140 five years from the road?

00:57:16.000 What sort of person would I want to be?

00:57:17.540 What sort of challenges would I be facing?

00:57:20.100 What would I have around me?

00:57:22.180 How would I like my life to be?

00:57:23.980 But more importantly, what sort of character would I like to be?

00:57:27.920 And then you have to ask yourself that, you know, and you'll get a vision.

00:57:31.680 And some of it will be concentrating on the remediation of your flaws.

00:57:36.880 Because maybe part of you will go, well, you know, here's some of the things you do wrong

00:57:41.480 that you know are wrong.

00:57:43.040 And here's ways you could sort that up and out and clean it up.

00:57:47.160 You know, you could become a better public speaker, for example.

00:57:50.060 You could take note of the things you're afraid of and that you're avoiding.

00:57:53.920 And you could decide that you're going to face those and fix them.

00:57:57.780 So that's, and then on the other side, you'd say, well, you know, what are you interested

00:58:03.100 and excited about that you could pursue?

00:58:06.020 And so you want to develop a vision.

00:58:08.380 And it's really, you do that in dialogue, honest dialogue with yourself.

00:58:12.520 It's like, okay, I'm taking care of myself.

00:58:15.680 What do I want?

00:58:16.680 And then we broke it down in this process, because if you ask someone what they want

00:58:21.420 for their life, that's a pretty hard question, you know, it's so open-ended, it's so large.

00:58:25.900 But then you can differentiate, you know, people used to come to me as a therapist or as a

00:58:30.880 professor, and they'd say, well, I don't know what to do with my life.

00:58:33.940 You know, I'd say, well, what do you want?

00:58:34.980 Say, well, I don't know what I want.

00:58:35.940 I don't know what to do with my life.

00:58:37.100 It's okay, fair enough.

00:58:38.840 If you don't know what to do with your life, look at what other people do that works.

00:58:43.920 And maybe think about how you're doing there.

00:58:46.520 So you could imagine this.

00:58:48.740 What sort of people do you want to be surrounded by?

00:58:51.600 You know, what sort of friends do you want?

00:58:54.640 And what can you offer those people?

00:58:56.880 How do you want your family to be functioning?

00:58:59.720 Not be your wife and your kids, but also your extended family, you know?

00:59:02.840 How could you repair those relationships or make them grow?

00:59:06.140 What educational opportunities could you pursue?

00:59:09.460 You know, how are you going to take care of yourself mentally and physically?

00:59:11.940 What occupation are you going to pursue?

00:59:15.280 And how are you going to make that thrive?

00:59:17.180 And what are you going to do with your life outside of your work?

00:59:20.360 And then, more broadly speaking, you might say, too, how could you be of the broadest possible service to other people?

00:59:27.340 Now, each of those is a microvision, right?

00:59:30.140 And what that does is it provides for you, because you pointed out something extremely important there.

00:59:36.040 You know, you said you fell in love with the process of climbing mountains, right?

00:59:40.320 And that speaks also to your motivation to continue pursuing your bodybuilding, which is, you know, an extreme preoccupation, a difficult preoccupation.

00:59:49.840 People might say, well, why do you do it?

00:59:51.380 And, you know, your answer so far has been, well, you like climbing mountains.

00:59:56.320 And then you might say, well, then, the mark of your success isn't going to be which mountain you climbed.

01:00:03.040 The mark of your success is going to be how good you've become at climbing whatever mountain presents itself in front of you.

01:00:10.280 And then the goal would be something like, what would you say, the eventual mastery of as many mountains as you can possibly manage.

01:00:20.300 So, one of the things that kept me motivated as a professor, it's kept me motivated all my life.

01:00:25.040 It's like, I've asked, how much can I do in the shortest possible time?

01:00:32.520 Like, and that's such a fun game to play, and I pretty much take that question into everything I do.

01:00:38.420 You know, it's like, where could I see this going?

01:00:43.780 And then the question of efficiency, well, that's partly because, well, if you want to do 10 things, you're going to have to do them pretty efficiently, because otherwise you won't have the time.

01:00:52.440 But then you get in that challenge mindset, right?

01:00:54.760 It's like, okay, here's an opportunity.

01:00:57.140 Now, sorry, I'm rambling a bit here, but I wanted to point out one other thing you pointed to that's very, very important.

01:01:02.760 You know, you said that as you've mastered the current discipline that you're pursuing,

01:01:07.600 you're more and more able to do it playfully, you know, that you have more fun backstage, you know, that you're joking around more.

01:01:15.700 And I would say that's also, if you're looking for a marker of mastery, that's the primary one.

01:01:23.460 You've really mastered something if you can do it in a spirit of play.

01:01:27.000 And this is something to really know about the baby that you're going to have.

01:01:31.660 Like, one of the things that kids love play, and one of the things they can deliver to you as a benefit, is to pull you into that play.

01:01:40.940 And there isn't anything that they want more than that, and there isn't anything that they need more than that.

01:01:46.420 And men can really offer that to children.

01:01:49.040 Now, it's, you know, not so easy when they're six months old and younger, but after that, man, the field of play is open.

01:01:56.780 And you can have an immensely productive relationship with your kids and an unbelievably enjoyable relationship if you introduce and focus on that spirit of play.

01:02:08.480 You are at a pinnacle in your career.

01:02:11.320 And as you said, you're not very old.

01:02:13.740 You've got a lot of life ahead of you.

01:02:15.020 Like, what do you think, and you talked about fatherhood in your marriage, what do you think is beckoning to you and also calling to your conscience?

01:02:24.600 Like, where do you see your life progressing?

01:02:27.980 I know that's a complicated question.

01:02:30.380 Yeah, for sure.

01:02:31.420 I mean, I've always been pretty transparent that bodybuilding isn't forever for me.

01:02:35.200 I'm grateful I got successful at a young age so I can retire at a young age.

01:02:38.640 I always said I wouldn't go past 30.

01:02:40.440 So now that I'm approaching that age, I'm coming to that point where I'm like, it's coming to the understanding that there isn't going to be one mountain, there's going to be many.

01:02:48.420 And also, this past year, I had a lot of things on my plate and I spread myself a little bit too thin.

01:02:53.440 And I wasn't able to compete at the level I wanted to at the beginning of the year.

01:02:58.140 And I read this book called The One Thing and it was talking about how if you want to be like the top 1% in something, you need to focus on that one thing.

01:03:05.300 And so I kind of realized I was trying to be too good and wearing too many hats while still being Mr. Olympia.

01:03:11.720 But it also showed me if I want to be the best father I can be, the best husband I can be, the best businessman, the best everything I can be, bodybuilding is going to take away from that, at least for parts of the year.

01:03:22.580 So if I want to be at least like top 5% in a lot of these things, I can work really hard at that.

01:03:28.440 But if bodybuilding is still being the best in the world for me, at least, it takes a lot out of me.

01:03:33.500 Therefore, it's sacrificing from other things.

01:03:35.620 And I started to notice that and that's not what I wanted.

01:03:38.740 The biggest goal I've ever had in my life, and I've always said this, why I'm so excited right now, was to be the best father I can be.

01:03:44.720 And in turn, also the best husband I can be because my biggest role model in my whole life was my father.

01:03:49.080 And the impact he had on me, I was always so grateful for it.

01:03:52.520 And being able to think of the impact I can have on another child is something that really excites me.

01:03:58.080 And backtracking a little bit when you were asking me what motivates me to keep going, that's one of the biggest things that keeps me going is some of the stories I've heard from people who have followed my journey.

01:04:10.940 You know, I've worked hard, like I've said, on being my true self through it all by showing a lot of things.

01:04:16.180 And honestly, I've been very grateful for everything you've put out because you have also been a great role model for men.

01:04:23.700 You're very intelligent, well-spoken, all these things, but you can also be very vulnerable.

01:04:28.320 You know, you're not afraid to cry when something is very passionate, you're passionate about.

01:04:32.040 And I've noticed myself, I'm a crier.

01:04:34.200 Sometimes I just start crying and I've expressed that.

01:04:36.800 I've cried on stage after Olympias.

01:04:38.300 I've cried on videos talking about stuff that scares me.

01:04:40.560 I've talked about my list, which is a vulnerability and stuff.

01:04:42.900 And since doing that more, I've had more and more kids come up to me and share those kind of same things with me.

01:04:48.960 And this past year at the Olympia, I had, I don't know if he was 12 or 13 years old.

01:04:55.320 He was a young boy.

01:04:56.140 And he came up to me, not able to speak too well.

01:04:58.760 It was tears in his eyes, just thanking me for all I had done for him and how I had helped him.

01:05:03.600 And he handed me a note.

01:05:04.840 He handed me a letter because he said he wouldn't be able to get all those words out.

01:05:07.740 And I thanked him, gave him a hug, took a picture and kind of went about.

01:05:12.340 And then a few hours later, I was waiting, eating some food.

01:05:15.280 It was a night before the Olympia, getting on stage the next day.

01:05:17.700 I opened up his letter and I started to read it.

01:05:20.180 And he expressed how he had Tourette's.

01:05:23.180 And he remembers hearing me talking about my list and how I was embarrassed about it and how I still have moments where I bring me back to my childhood feeling embarrassed.

01:05:30.200 But working through all that stuff and he talked about the impact that it had on him and how he'd been bullied and how sad he'd been in the past, but how he's building up all this courage that he pulls a lot from me.

01:05:40.000 And it was a very nice, heartfelt note.

01:05:42.080 And I sat backstage or back where I was at the time just crying, like sobbing, just tears running down my face.

01:05:49.280 It still makes me emotional when I think about it now, just feeling so grateful for the impact that the work I'm doing for myself and my family is also having on the community around me.

01:05:59.340 And that story and that feeling alone filled me with so much energy to keep doing what I'm doing and like a belief that I'm on the right path.

01:06:09.780 And so that really, it just felt right.

01:06:12.280 I'm like, I'm where I need to be right now.

01:06:13.780 And this is why I do it.

01:06:15.140 This is why I'm putting myself out there at the same time as putting this much work into something.

01:06:20.440 And like I said, bodybuilding is forever.

01:06:23.760 I understand.

01:06:24.080 So when I bring down to a bunch of other mountains, I would like to put a lot of focus on my relationship over the past few years, and that will never stop.

01:06:31.940 The amount of joy I've gotten from that, like you said, it's an endless battle.

01:06:35.020 I want to put that energy into being the father I can be.

01:06:37.540 And I want those lessons I have of being able to help other people in the bodybuilding community or these other kids who follow me, I want to be able to apply more to them, more to my family, more to my children, and all of the above.

01:06:47.860 And I really realized that the beginning of my career was a little bit more selfish, more external, chasing after things, making myself better.

01:06:56.300 And now that I've realized, I still have endless amount of growth to go, but I have enough growth inside of me where I can help others grow too.

01:07:03.800 That's like the biggest thing I'm excited and passionate about.

01:07:08.040 It's kept me bodybuilding, at least for the last year.

01:07:10.520 And if I do another one, it will be a huge part of that as well.

01:07:14.240 And a huge part, while I bodybuild, I share the ups and downs and the fears and the excitements of the entire journey.

01:07:21.500 Right, right.

01:07:22.340 So you can see that, as you said, that your progression is being, you know, that you focused in a very disciplined manner on one thing.

01:07:30.020 And to some degree, that was something that served your own individual interests particularly well.

01:07:35.900 But that as you've got better and better at that and become more successful at that, the relationship you have with your wife is beckoning as extremely important.

01:07:45.580 The potential relationship with your child and also this pleasure that you see and take in modeling discipline for people and also mentoring them.

01:07:55.140 So I just had a chat with Jocko Willink and Jocko is quite the bloody monster and very disciplined man, you know, and he's joked with me several times that, you know, if he'd taken a few wrong turns when he was a young man, he could have easily been a criminal type because he's a tough son of a bitch.

01:08:14.580 You know, one of the things that really changed Jocko, because we talked about this to some degree, was his experience in the military.

01:08:20.840 And I think he was interested in the military to begin with, perhaps for some of the same reasons that you were interested in bodybuilding.

01:08:29.620 You know, it was the personal self-development element of it.

01:08:32.160 But what he learned as a leader in the military was that he had the opportunity to model appropriate conduct for other people and to help them develop.

01:08:42.240 And he said he didn't ever find anything that was more meaningful than that.

01:08:46.280 Like, that was even more exciting than excitement.

01:08:49.500 That was more exciting than adventure.

01:08:51.120 Certainly more exciting and worthwhile than anything, you know, kind of troublemaking criminal adventure, which does have that adventurous element to it.

01:08:58.100 You know, it's like, it's why we like watching bad guys in movies.

01:09:01.620 You know, at least they're not sitting around doing nothing, you know.

01:09:05.160 And so, but certainly it's been true in my life, too, that I don't think there is a deeper pleasure and a more sustainable pleasure once you've learned to walk up mountains, let's say, with some degree of facility.

01:09:22.060 Then to see the positive effect that observing that has on other people and then also to foster that.

01:09:28.840 And you certainly have a walloping opportunity to do that as a father.

01:09:32.160 And then, you know, I want to talk about a couple of things.

01:09:36.960 You also mentioned, this is a particular conundrum that men have, I would say, even more than women.

01:09:43.540 But to be extremely successful at something, you know, the top 1%, you said, and you're actually above that in your particular discipline, you really have to be hyper-focused on it.

01:09:55.860 Like the great scientists that I've known, I worked at Harvard for six years, and the senior professors there, I was an assistant and associate, not a full professor.

01:10:05.740 The full professors were guys who were at the pinnacle of their career, and they were at the pinnacle of that type of career, period.

01:10:14.060 Because Harvard would go around the world and find those, mostly men, and aggregate them together.

01:10:20.000 And so then you might ask, well, what do you have to be like to be someone like that?

01:10:24.000 And the answer is, well, being smart, that's like pretty necessary.

01:10:28.000 And that's kind of a gift that's given to you by fate in God.

01:10:31.700 Like you can interfere with it, but if it's not there naturally, you know, it's a real impediment.

01:10:36.440 And it's sort of like height, you know, if you don't have it, there's not a lot you can do to get it.

01:10:43.800 But then insane dedication is the next thing.

01:10:47.720 Like if you want to be the best of the best, you're going to be working flat out like 16 hours a day, seven days a week, hopefully not exhausting yourself.

01:10:58.760 Because you're in one hell of a competitive environment.

01:11:01.580 And there's real utility in that, especially for men, because if you get really good at one thing, there's the cascading benefits that you pointed to, for example, when you found when you started to work out in the gym when you were 14, that you were getting more, you know, you get more attention from girls because of it.

01:11:18.640 So, but the price you pay is that it's harder to do many things at once.

01:11:24.740 And you said you've come to realize that if you want to compete at the highest level, that that is, there's opportunity cost there.

01:11:31.300 You know, that's going to make it more difficult for you to be, well, 100% committed to the other things that you have to do and want to do.

01:11:39.960 It's hard to get that balance right.

01:11:42.000 And, you know, it's probably the case, I don't know this for sure, but it's probably the case that as you move forward and you step back from this particular obsessive concern,

01:11:52.260 that you'll have the opportunity to grow, let's say, in a more balanced way and to pull out of that a more comprehensively developed personality.

01:12:04.620 You know, and that is something you, the advantage to doing that is that there's no limit to it.

01:12:10.760 You know, I don't care how good you get at public speaking, for example, you can still get better.

01:12:17.060 There's no, and I don't care how good you are as a father, there's no limit to, because you could be a father to a lot of people as you found out, you know, when that kid gave you the note, not least when that kid gave you the note.

01:12:28.520 So, you know, that's definitely an exciting horizon of opportunities.

01:12:35.340 What's been your experience?

01:12:37.020 You said that, you know, we talked a little bit about your fears today.

01:12:40.520 We talked a little bit about how you overcome them and how also they were linked to things about yourself that you regarded as inadequacies.

01:12:48.920 We talked a little bit about public displays of emotion around that or maybe admission of that.

01:12:55.820 You said your observation has been that you doing that, like, it's like admitting to your weaknesses at the same time that you're celebrating your successes, right?

01:13:08.120 It's that balance.

01:13:09.280 You can imagine why that would be inviting for people, because they might look at your success and think, oh, my God, there's no way I could do anything like that.

01:13:18.780 You know, you must be some sort of superhuman creature to manage that.

01:13:22.180 But then when they hear, oh, no, you know, you managed that despite the fact that you have an array of insufficiencies, that's where the person, that might be a place where the, especially the younger guys, they can identify with you more clearly.

01:13:37.220 So an honest admission of that kind of opens the door to them.

01:13:41.740 They might be able to think, well, if he could do it under those conditions, I could do it under the conditions in my own life.

01:13:47.160 That's the advantage of that emotional honesty maybe, eh?

01:13:49.760 Yeah, for sure.

01:13:51.500 And I mean, you spoke at the beginning we're talking about, and you always speak about speaking the truth.

01:13:56.380 And I almost fell across this way of living by accident, because when I would be nervous, all I could think of to do was to speak the truth.

01:14:04.560 And if I was on stage and I was nervous or something, I would just start by saying, I'm up here and I'm really anxious right now.

01:14:10.700 And people would be like, oh, like, that relatability, he's human.

01:14:13.660 And they start to see past that, and then I lighten up a little bit.

01:14:17.320 There's no more falsehood I have to put on, pretending like I'm not anxious or something.

01:14:21.920 So that really helped me a lot.

01:14:23.980 And yeah, it's been a process for sure, but it's helped a lot.

01:14:29.000 And like you said, a lot of people have viewed me.

01:14:31.100 It's funny, there's an internet term people call, and they started calling me a dad in the fitness industry.

01:14:35.280 And it was quite ironic, because I wanted to be a father so bad.

01:14:39.540 And that's when I really started to realize the responsibility that came in the position I'm in.

01:14:45.260 And I mentioned the champion mentality, and I use that as kind of a brainstorming topic.

01:14:49.880 I continuously go back to and adjust what that definition means to me.

01:14:53.960 And I grew up looking up to people like Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan, Tom Brady, all these high-level athletes.

01:14:59.880 But when you take a zoom out at their life, most of them don't have long-lasting, at least not happy relationships.

01:15:07.120 They typically end partway through or near the end of their career, which in my mind starts to look like these high-level of success is requiring them to sacrifice their connection and relationship to be where they are.

01:15:19.140 And I started to realize that's not what I want.

01:15:21.740 And the rule I have of champion mentality, it's not about any rules to it.

01:15:27.140 It's just about how you do it.

01:15:28.160 I can do it, and I can make my own rules.

01:15:30.300 As long as I'm feeling like I'm winning, I'm progressing, I'm growing, it doesn't matter about the medals or anything outside of that.

01:15:35.480 It just matters the progress I'm making.

01:15:37.240 And so I wasn't willing to sacrifice my relationship.

01:15:40.320 Or if I started to sacrifice my relationship, I would pull back from bodybuilding.

01:15:43.460 I had a few more guidelines that I wasn't willing to give up on.

01:15:46.680 And seeing the responsibility I have to people looking up to me,

01:15:49.540 I believe that younger kids looking up and chasing success long-term are going to be happier while still focusing on connection and meaningful relationships without sacrificing those just to become successful.

01:16:02.540 Because anyone can see it.

01:16:04.580 If you're at the top of the mountain alone, you're alone.

01:16:07.680 Right.

01:16:07.900 Well, you know, the other thing, too, is that—and I'm interested maybe in how you've managed this, you know, because we could say, well, your relationship is something that could interfere with your bodybuilding, right?

01:16:20.060 Because time is a zero-sum game.

01:16:22.500 But then we could say, well, no, no, not necessarily.

01:16:25.140 Like, if you got your relationship in order, well, first of all, you wouldn't be wasting time chasing other women and falling into whatever pitfalls and complexities might be associated with that.

01:16:36.420 Plus, you could ally yourself with someone who was there for your support and who was along with you for the ride, you know, assuming that she could find a way that would also fulfill her own goals.

01:16:47.200 So—and that's a better vision, right?

01:16:49.200 I mean, it's certainly the case since I've hit the road in 2017.

01:16:52.960 You know, my wife and I have negotiated and searched to find where she fits into that, not shoehorned in, you know, and not as a necessary accompaniment, not that at all, but in a way that would bolster the entire endeavor and also keep the relationship strong.

01:17:13.880 So how long have you been with your wife or fiancé or wife at the moment?

01:17:20.000 Wife.

01:17:20.380 We've been together for five and a half years, yeah.

01:17:22.960 How long have you been married?

01:17:26.060 Less than a year.

01:17:27.760 Okay, okay.

01:17:28.400 So you're in your first year of marriage.

01:17:29.880 What do you think that—what do you think you've done right?

01:17:33.260 And what has she done right that's enabled you guys to develop this relationship, to move towards marriage, to decide to have a baby?

01:17:41.820 While you're pursuing this very, very specific and difficult goal, what have you both done right?

01:17:47.280 Let's start with her.

01:17:48.240 What do you think she's done right?

01:17:49.700 She has definitely taken full responsibility for where she needs to come in.

01:18:01.080 And the biggest thing that comes into my mind is we don't leave any monsters under the bed.

01:18:07.920 We don't leave anything under touch or the dragon, as you've mentioned.

01:18:10.860 We do not allow that.

01:18:12.960 And at the beginning of our relationship, we've been through some hell.

01:18:16.300 We've been through some chaos.

01:18:17.960 We've been through some fights.

01:18:18.900 We've been through some shit.

01:18:20.400 But we're at a point now where because we have processed all those, we fought through them.

01:18:25.300 We pulled each other apart and then back together.

01:18:27.760 And we went through that dance.

01:18:29.080 Now, we understand each other so much.

01:18:31.420 And there's nothing under the rug.

01:18:33.240 Our carpet's flat.

01:18:34.360 It's all on the surface.

01:18:35.600 We've committed to speaking the truth, speaking to how we feel, and not allowing anything go between.

01:18:40.480 And I mean, she's done great at holding me very accountable.

01:18:43.980 She's no pushover.

01:18:45.180 I don't get away with anything, really.

01:18:46.680 If I come in with a bit of an attitude or even talk about making me better at the bodybuilder, too, if I'm a little snappy because I'm dieting or tired, she won't have it.

01:18:54.840 She won't let it go.

01:18:55.620 She's like, she holds me to a high standard.

01:18:57.520 She knows what I'm capable of.

01:18:59.000 And that holds myself to that standard where I know that she's doing that because she loves me.

01:19:03.200 She's willing to call me out for my faults and make the best version of me because of how much she loves me and values our relationship.

01:19:09.160 And I think that ability to communicate and to work and battle through the problems rather than push them aside and move over and wait until there's too many of them piling up to face, it's allowed us to, like I said, we've gone through some fire in the past.

01:19:23.080 But now we're in such a stable place where when I found out she was pregnant and we're getting married, there's no fear, there's no what ifs, there's no oh my God.

01:19:30.620 There's just pure excitement and absolute confidence and trust because we know we can get through it together, anything.

01:19:36.920 So I think that's the greatest thing.

01:19:38.820 Well, that pure excitement, the emergence of that pure excitement, you know, and that I think that's particularly true when it emerges as the spirit of play that we were talking about before.

01:19:49.980 You know, I mean, there isn't anything more really that kids like, boys and girls playing together, than playing house successfully, you know, and that's a game for kids.

01:20:01.180 But if you do it right as an adult, it's a game too.

01:20:03.680 And you could imagine that if you got all the monsters out from underneath the rug and dispensed with them so they weren't cluttering up your house,

01:20:11.400 that you could do something like entertain the possibility of having a family in nothing but, in almost nothing but a spirit of excitement.

01:20:18.400 So I think, you know, the other thing I've noticed is that if you clear away all those lurking skeletons in the closet or dragons under the carpet,

01:20:30.540 then that spirit of play can emerge, right?

01:20:33.580 And then that's when your relationship is optimized.

01:20:36.380 What do you think, how did you guys go about jointly determining that you were going to face the issues, your own personal issues and the issues in your relationship instead of pretending they weren't there?

01:20:51.860 And how did you negotiate your commitment to the truth within your relationship?

01:20:56.760 I think it was a bit of a dance.

01:20:59.380 When we first met, she had had a much more difficult childhood than me and some stuff that she was processing still.

01:21:07.960 And those were more on the surface.

01:21:09.640 And I was the one looking back at my past with rose-colored glasses, thinking I had it all good.

01:21:14.660 And my stuff was a little bit deeper under the rug.

01:21:17.260 And so as stuff started to come up, I think part of it comes from myself.

01:21:23.800 I grew up in a family that wasn't always great at communicating about things.

01:21:27.000 And so when I was entering a relationship, I wasn't going to have the same thing.

01:21:30.420 I was going to make sure everything was spoken about and brought to the surface and worked through.

01:21:34.800 And at first, she didn't love that about me.

01:21:37.100 It wasn't always fun, but it allowed us to continuously grow stronger and build trust.

01:21:41.860 And as I started to see the worst of her, and she started to show me the worst of her, and I started to show her the worst of me,

01:21:47.180 and we realized we were still together and we weren't running away from each other,

01:21:50.740 we started to build a lot more trust.

01:21:52.460 And it's like, okay, I can show you my deepest, darkest self that no one else gets to see,

01:21:58.120 and you still love me.

01:21:59.480 That's powerful.

01:22:00.540 And the same with me.

01:22:01.180 That's a good deal, yeah.

01:22:02.240 I know for a fact that she's allowed me to be all of myself.

01:22:05.920 She's seen me at my weakest, at my worst, and all these things.

01:22:08.920 And she hasn't run away.

01:22:09.960 She's pulled me in closer.

01:22:11.780 And you talked a bit about relationships not sacrificing or taking away from success,

01:22:17.760 but actually being able to add to it.

01:22:19.200 And that's where she's really helped me because she has understood so much of it that she has pulled out all the realness in me.

01:22:25.300 And as I'm trying to feel and process emotions, she would be able to see on my face if something was off.

01:22:30.240 And she would ask me, are you okay?

01:22:31.420 And I'd be like, I'm fine.

01:22:32.520 I'm good.

01:22:33.240 And I'm very good at hiding that, but she's very good at seeing it now.

01:22:35.740 And she would ask me 10 times, what's going on?

01:22:38.220 What's going on?

01:22:38.920 Pull it out.

01:22:39.620 All of a sudden, I started breaking down crying, and I didn't even realize what was in me myself.

01:22:43.480 And I'm not wanting my wife to see me in this point of weakness because I feel maybe I would be judged.

01:22:50.360 And I've had a lot of men, as I've spoken about this, tell me I couldn't tell my wife that.

01:22:54.020 She would judge me too much.

01:22:54.980 She would leave me if I broke down crying in front of her like that.

01:22:58.200 She didn't.

01:22:58.980 She pulled me in closer, and she told me every single time.

01:23:01.900 She's like, I know this is difficult.

01:23:03.080 I know there's a lot of pressure on you right now.

01:23:05.140 You can quit if you want.

01:23:06.120 I will love you regardless, but I believe in you to get through this, and you will get through this if you choose to.

01:23:10.600 And she instilled that confidence in me, and it's that dance we've had back and forth where it started with me pulling it a little bit of her,

01:23:18.520 and then now that she's in a much better place, she's able to start pulling the things out of me,

01:23:22.840 and we show each other the dark sides, and we've pulled each other closer and closer over the years

01:23:27.020 to now this point where we have this pure excitement bringing a child together,

01:23:30.700 which is the ultimate form of connection and trust that you need.

01:23:34.360 It's the most beautiful thing, and it's something that I'm very grateful to share

01:23:39.220 because nothing's more meaningful in life than getting to share these experiences and these moments I have

01:23:44.480 with someone who loves you and sees you for all of who you are.

01:23:48.040 Yeah.

01:23:48.540 Yeah, well, that was all good, Chris.

01:23:50.120 I mean, I like that story a lot.

01:23:52.860 It has the ring of truth about it.

01:23:55.020 I really like two things you said.

01:23:56.800 The first was, it's so interesting, eh?

01:24:00.080 Because you said that when your relationship started, her issues, things, those would be problems

01:24:09.080 that she brought to the situation that had remained unsolved to some degree.

01:24:12.820 That's what baggage is.

01:24:13.980 It's like impediments to people's development that they haven't been able to overcome or conceptualize properly.

01:24:19.380 You said hers were more on the surface, right?

01:24:22.780 And so you could, you played the role of the person who was willing to confront those,

01:24:28.940 and you guys got through them and dispensed with them, and then things turned around, eh?

01:24:34.420 So because once she got better at that, the things you said, the things that were about you

01:24:39.560 that were perhaps not as evident on the surface, those started to emerge and could be dealt with, you know?

01:24:46.680 And so that's cool, and I think it's realistic.

01:24:50.280 I don't think it matters in a couple where you start delving into problems.

01:24:55.800 You delve into the problems that make themselves manifest.

01:24:59.040 If you do that honestly together, you'll end up dealing with all of the problems, right?

01:25:05.220 It doesn't matter whose they are.

01:25:06.640 They're going to rise up, and you're going to be able to confront them.

01:25:10.220 You know, and then you said that having done that successfully,

01:25:14.120 partly because she is bonded to you in this vow, she isn't going to run away

01:25:19.740 when she sees the parts of you that aren't everything you might hope they would be at that moment.

01:25:27.420 And that means that you can, what that actually means, instead of making it worse,

01:25:30.760 it means that you can actually admit to and confront your problems

01:25:33.880 so that you have some possibility of solving them.

01:25:36.720 Because, you know, it is humiliating in the true sense to notice that you had a problem

01:25:43.900 that you didn't even know you had, you know?

01:25:46.380 But it certainly gives you an opportunity.

01:25:49.260 Then you know it's there, man, and then you guys can take it on.

01:25:52.000 And you concluded all that by saying that there isn't anything better

01:25:56.380 than having the opportunity to share your success with someone you love.

01:26:01.180 And I actually think, to some degree, if that's not the fundamental benefit of marriage,

01:26:07.960 it's certainly one of the benefits.

01:26:11.520 Like, working through your problems jointly, that's a major one.

01:26:14.900 And whatever pleasure you get out of each other's company, that's a major one.

01:26:18.760 But this ability that a long-term relationship has to allow you to...

01:26:25.180 It deepens your experiences, eh?

01:26:27.900 The fact that you have someone to share them with.

01:26:30.200 It makes your own triumphs much more real and much more profound

01:26:35.260 to have someone along for the adventure.

01:26:39.000 And then you also have the same opportunity in relationship to their successes.

01:26:44.840 That's a good deal.

01:26:46.740 For sure, yeah.

01:26:47.200 And especially, as I was talking about, her pulling out those fears and those things in me

01:26:53.980 that I'm holding in and seeing all that and truly seeing all of me

01:26:57.660 and everything that it takes to become Mr. Olympia

01:27:01.360 or to get through whatever I'm getting through.

01:27:03.200 And then be together at the end and to step off stage and go behind the curtains

01:27:06.960 and to see her there looking at me with tears in her eyes.

01:27:09.580 I'm getting emotional now thinking about these moments.

01:27:12.180 And being able to embrace her.

01:27:13.320 And in that moment, feel that this person you're holding who you love

01:27:17.560 has seen the entire journey with you.

01:27:20.080 You don't feel alone at all.

01:27:21.620 There's no standing on stage being like,

01:27:23.680 you don't know what I went through.

01:27:24.600 No, she's seen and she felt everything I've been through

01:27:27.800 and she was beside me the whole way.

01:27:29.640 And therefore, we are both able to feel this victory together.

01:27:32.380 It's hers as much as it is mine.

01:27:34.300 So that's, as you mentioned, there's nothing more beautiful than that.

01:27:37.960 Right, right.

01:27:38.480 Well, then, yeah.

01:27:39.340 Well, that's the most real part of the whole celebration.

01:27:42.220 Because, I mean, you get the award and you get the public acclaim

01:27:46.200 and you get the triumph.

01:27:47.740 But if you've been honest with your wife

01:27:50.420 and all of the problems that went along with that,

01:27:53.060 all the obstacles that went along with that

01:27:54.960 have been laid out and you overcame them jointly,

01:27:58.020 then the true celebration in the deepest sense

01:28:01.500 is actually the one with her.

01:28:02.700 Because she knows the story better than anyone else.

01:28:05.940 Yeah, absolutely.

01:28:07.120 Yeah.

01:28:07.860 Yeah, that's a good deal.

01:28:10.040 That's definitely a good deal.

01:28:11.320 So when is your child going to be born?

01:28:17.240 Baby girl is going to be born in April.

01:28:21.060 In April.

01:28:21.900 So you've got about three months.

01:28:23.720 Oh, yeah.

01:28:24.120 Okay, okay.

01:28:24.800 So your wife is pretty pregnant at the moment.

01:28:26.920 She's pretty pregnant, yeah.

01:28:28.480 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:28:29.460 Those last few months, I just watched my daughter go through that

01:28:33.320 because she had a baby in mid-December.

01:28:35.740 And so we were there for about the month leading up to that.

01:28:39.140 Yeah, and those last couple of months of pregnancy,

01:28:42.520 that's quite the, well, the whole thing is quite the trip,

01:28:44.900 but the last few months in particular.

01:28:47.280 For sure, yeah.

01:28:48.160 Obviously, too, as a man, your role at the beginning of the child,

01:28:54.300 as you mentioned, that spirit of play doesn't really come in

01:28:56.360 until they're a little bit older, which is easier for a man.

01:28:59.360 What would you say is some good tips for me entering this right now,

01:29:03.160 especially for that first phase?

01:29:04.800 That's a good question.

01:29:05.740 Well, look, after my wife and I got married,

01:29:09.980 I was about 28 or so, and she's a year older than me,

01:29:12.880 she was ready to have a baby pretty much right away.

01:29:15.840 And I still wasn't firmly situated in my career,

01:29:19.380 although my prospects were good.

01:29:20.900 I wasn't worried about it.

01:29:21.900 And I wasn't in a hurry.

01:29:24.360 But she was more in a hurry.

01:29:27.620 And I thought, well, I don't want to stop her

01:29:30.720 from doing something that she wants,

01:29:32.500 so why am I resistant to this?

01:29:35.860 So I went for a walk, and I thought about it,

01:29:37.620 and I thought, okay, well,

01:29:38.820 I have things to do to finish developing my career,

01:29:41.820 and I have to do them right now.

01:29:43.240 I was finishing up my PhD.

01:29:45.120 Like, I have to do that.

01:29:46.500 There's no way around that.

01:29:48.140 And so nothing can interfere with that

01:29:49.940 because that's not going to be good for me or for my family.

01:29:52.560 So that's one possibility.

01:29:54.000 And then I thought, well, also,

01:29:55.460 I don't know what the hell to do with an infant.

01:29:58.700 Like, it's not in my...

01:30:00.360 And look, I'm a relatively maternal man.

01:30:03.460 I worked with little kids.

01:30:04.980 I've worked in daycares.

01:30:06.240 Like, I like little kids.

01:30:07.560 And so I'm more prone to take care of little kids

01:30:11.460 than most men by temperament.

01:30:13.860 But even so, like infants?

01:30:16.340 I don't know what the hell to do with an infant.

01:30:18.140 So I thought, oh, well, maybe that's the problem.

01:30:19.920 I don't have any problem with kids at all

01:30:21.560 once they're sort of ambulatory.

01:30:23.340 Like, older than nine months, let's say.

01:30:25.640 And by the way, you can start playing with a baby

01:30:27.860 very, very early.

01:30:29.180 Like, the play is very subtle.

01:30:31.220 You know, I had taken my granddaughter,

01:30:34.060 my son's daughter,

01:30:35.300 and put her on my knees standing up

01:30:38.380 when she was about four months old.

01:30:40.200 And I got her to play a head bonking game.

01:30:43.000 You know, I'd bring her forward

01:30:44.520 and bonk my head on hers.

01:30:45.700 I'd go one, two, three, bonk.

01:30:47.820 Like, really lightly, obviously.

01:30:49.640 And then wait.

01:30:50.380 Because babies are slow, eh?

01:30:51.840 Their pace is slow.

01:30:54.560 One, two, three, bonk.

01:30:56.240 And then I did that, like, five, six times.

01:30:59.140 So she knew the pattern.

01:31:00.580 And then I went one, two, three,

01:31:02.400 and pulled her forward, but didn't bonk her.

01:31:04.780 And she laughed.

01:31:06.280 And I thought, hey, kid, you got the game.

01:31:08.300 You know, you establish that little pattern

01:31:09.800 and then deviate from it.

01:31:11.560 That's the game.

01:31:12.240 It's like peekaboo, too.

01:31:13.400 You know, it's like,

01:31:14.440 it's a surprise.

01:31:15.320 There's a bit of surprise in it.

01:31:16.340 So you can start playing with a baby very early.

01:31:18.980 It's very subtle to begin with.

01:31:21.280 But I would say,

01:31:22.440 so know that, know that,

01:31:23.840 that you can start playing

01:31:25.020 and interacting very early.

01:31:27.960 So, and that's a good thing to have

01:31:29.620 at the back of your mind.

01:31:30.780 And that ability to play

01:31:32.100 just gets more and more important

01:31:33.340 as the baby gets older.

01:31:34.820 But I would also say that

01:31:36.600 your role

01:31:38.480 is to take care of your wife

01:31:41.600 while she takes care of the baby.

01:31:42.880 So that means you got to watch her

01:31:46.260 because this is going to tire her out.

01:31:48.320 Like it's a,

01:31:48.920 it's a full body experience

01:31:51.020 for a woman, right?

01:31:52.060 I mean, first of all,

01:31:52.960 she's pregnant

01:31:53.720 and that's a hell of a thing,

01:31:55.480 especially in the last month.

01:31:56.900 Then she has to give birth.

01:31:58.460 And, you know,

01:32:00.700 I think that's something

01:32:03.500 men have no real comprehension of.

01:32:05.380 And then she has to recover.

01:32:06.580 And then that baby

01:32:07.360 is like desperately vulnerable

01:32:09.960 and requires everything

01:32:13.040 the woman has to provide

01:32:14.720 for the first,

01:32:16.180 absolutely for the first two months

01:32:18.340 and pretty much absolutely

01:32:20.540 for the first six months.

01:32:22.260 So you got to stand in the background

01:32:23.920 and you got to watch her

01:32:25.160 and you got to make sure

01:32:26.720 that she doesn't get overwhelmed

01:32:28.200 because that's when you need

01:32:29.960 to be in there.

01:32:31.120 You need to go in and say,

01:32:32.240 look, you know,

01:32:32.980 you need a rest.

01:32:34.700 You need to have a nap.

01:32:35.900 You, I'll take care of the baby.

01:32:37.520 I'll watch.

01:32:38.200 And so everything's going fine

01:32:39.600 and I'll wake you up

01:32:40.340 if it's necessary,

01:32:41.120 but you got to spell her off.

01:32:43.180 And so you need to make

01:32:44.260 that arrangement.

01:32:45.700 And that's the primary,

01:32:48.560 you know, you think

01:32:49.240 that's how it looks to me

01:32:50.280 is her primary responsibility

01:32:51.780 is to take care of the baby

01:32:53.180 and your primary responsibility

01:32:55.240 is to take care of her.

01:32:57.040 And then you have to understand

01:32:59.540 that she's going to be gone

01:33:02.200 from you for like six months.

01:33:06.140 And if you can engage

01:33:11.200 in that wholeheartedly,

01:33:12.320 you can get to know the baby

01:33:13.560 and you can set the stage

01:33:17.080 so that that baby

01:33:18.060 is really well attached

01:33:19.500 to the mother,

01:33:20.820 like firmly,

01:33:21.860 and that'll save you

01:33:23.020 so goddamn much trouble

01:33:24.200 for the rest of your life

01:33:25.140 you can hardly imagine it

01:33:26.340 because that initial bonding,

01:33:28.480 that's what provides

01:33:29.880 the scaffold of security,

01:33:31.640 like the physical scaffold

01:33:33.020 of security for that new person.

01:33:36.540 And if that's disrupted,

01:33:38.560 it's real trouble.

01:33:40.220 So, you know, in six months,

01:33:42.200 it's not, you know, an instant,

01:33:45.980 but she's going to come back.

01:33:50.320 And then you'll also have,

01:33:53.420 when my son was born,

01:33:55.040 when Julian was born,

01:33:56.060 my daughter, Michaela,

01:33:57.000 was only a year and a half old.

01:33:58.540 And that's a bit of a tricky age gap

01:34:01.380 because a year and a half old kid

01:34:03.260 still needs her mother quite a lot.

01:34:05.620 And then you have a new baby.

01:34:07.120 And if you have a year and a half old kid

01:34:09.280 and then a new baby,

01:34:10.240 the year and a half old kid

01:34:11.440 looks like a teenager.

01:34:13.380 It's like they're not a baby anymore

01:34:15.820 compared to a newborn.

01:34:16.980 And so they can easily get

01:34:18.420 kind of shunted aside

01:34:19.680 and that can produce

01:34:20.920 a lot of sibling rivalry

01:34:22.140 and jealousy and bitterness

01:34:23.420 and alienation

01:34:25.040 on the part of the older child.

01:34:26.600 So we taught her very early

01:34:29.580 to take care of the new baby

01:34:31.000 and to understand that

01:34:32.040 if she established a relationship

01:34:33.760 with him, you know,

01:34:35.040 that would be a benefit

01:34:37.840 that she could derive

01:34:38.800 from the new situation.

01:34:40.120 She'd have three people to love

01:34:41.420 instead of two,

01:34:42.180 and that's a good deal.

01:34:43.460 The same applies here

01:34:44.720 in relationship to your wife

01:34:46.420 and the new child.

01:34:47.300 It's like you're going to have to

01:34:48.500 let your wife go for six months.

01:34:51.680 But if you're very careful with that,

01:34:54.840 as I'm sure you will be,

01:34:56.180 and you really take care of her,

01:34:58.340 you know, she'll come back to you

01:34:59.420 and then you'll have

01:34:59.940 this other person, a daughter.

01:35:01.740 You'll never have anybody

01:35:02.720 in your life who loves you

01:35:03.860 as much as your daughter will.

01:35:05.900 Like if you do that right,

01:35:07.260 and it'll be the same

01:35:07.980 if you have a son,

01:35:08.960 and that is a bloody good deal.

01:35:10.500 I'll tell you, man,

01:35:11.180 I loved hanging around my,

01:35:12.640 when my kids were little,

01:35:14.180 I would way rather be with them

01:35:16.160 than anyone else.

01:35:17.300 They were fun.

01:35:18.100 You know, and that's,

01:35:20.160 it helps if you have

01:35:22.640 the right disciplinary structure

01:35:24.360 in relationship to your kids

01:35:26.480 and you've worked that out

01:35:27.540 with your wife.

01:35:28.140 So I have a rule.

01:35:29.520 It's a very good rule.

01:35:30.940 You know, don't let your kids

01:35:32.520 do anything that makes you

01:35:33.640 dislike them.

01:35:34.900 And if you discuss that

01:35:36.720 with your wife

01:35:37.480 and you make that a rule,

01:35:40.060 you know,

01:35:40.620 you can note to each other,

01:35:42.580 that kid's annoying us.

01:35:44.900 That kid's being annoying.

01:35:46.220 And then you can work together

01:35:47.220 and you think,

01:35:47.680 okay, what's annoying?

01:35:49.860 How do we stop it?

01:35:50.740 Because if he's annoying you,

01:35:51.820 he's going to annoy everybody else.

01:35:53.040 And if he's annoying,

01:35:53.920 no one will like him.

01:35:54.820 It's not good for the kid.

01:35:56.200 But if you can get that right,

01:35:58.540 you'll,

01:35:59.600 there'll be nothing more enjoyable

01:36:00.920 that you do in your whole life

01:36:02.200 than spend time

01:36:03.000 with your little kids

01:36:03.720 because they really want to like you

01:36:05.720 more than anything else.

01:36:07.260 And that's a great deal, man.

01:36:09.580 For sure.

01:36:10.320 Yeah.

01:36:10.580 No,

01:36:11.280 I'm definitely very excited

01:36:12.940 for that,

01:36:13.460 that relationship.

01:36:14.200 building and like you were saying.

01:36:16.800 And luckily in the past,

01:36:18.220 we've had almost a little bit

01:36:19.120 of experience with the flip

01:36:20.180 where when I was,

01:36:21.260 I got better this year,

01:36:22.240 but in the past

01:36:22.800 when I was a little bit more

01:36:23.760 stressed out about entering a prep,

01:36:26.460 we would communicate

01:36:27.300 before getting into it.

01:36:29.020 In the past,

01:36:29.600 past we didn't,

01:36:30.320 but we started to communicate.

01:36:31.360 Be like,

01:36:31.560 okay,

01:36:31.700 I'm about to enter

01:36:32.500 a really intense phase

01:36:33.780 of my prep right now.

01:36:34.960 So I just want you to know

01:36:36.180 preemptively,

01:36:37.020 I love you.

01:36:38.140 You're my number one priority,

01:36:39.260 but right now

01:36:39.820 I may not be able to show you

01:36:41.240 that as much as possible,

01:36:42.220 but I promise

01:36:43.360 afterwards we will reconnect,

01:36:45.400 we will do everything we can,

01:36:46.300 and also in the process

01:36:47.160 I will do the best I can.

01:36:48.740 So now that we've practiced that,

01:36:50.480 you mentioned six months

01:36:51.580 it's going to be pulled away,

01:36:52.740 so we've already been communicating

01:36:54.640 and we will more,

01:36:55.840 and especially you giving this tip,

01:36:57.340 I'll go even talk to her again tonight

01:36:58.720 and be like,

01:36:59.100 I understand that you're going to be

01:37:00.660 stepped away for the six months

01:37:01.680 and give her permission

01:37:02.760 to be there for the baby

01:37:04.140 and also understand

01:37:05.760 that afterwards

01:37:06.300 we'll reconnect

01:37:07.120 and come back to each other,

01:37:08.520 but rather than finding it out

01:37:10.280 along the way,

01:37:11.300 understanding it before it comes

01:37:12.640 so that we're able

01:37:13.220 to prepare for it

01:37:14.060 and not build any resentment

01:37:15.440 that might come.

01:37:17.480 So the other thing

01:37:18.800 that Tammy and I figured out

01:37:19.900 at that time was,

01:37:21.380 because your wife

01:37:22.500 is going to be very preoccupied

01:37:24.020 with this new person

01:37:24.900 and to the degree

01:37:26.520 that you want to be

01:37:27.480 around your wife,

01:37:29.660 that's going to leave you

01:37:30.860 on the outside.

01:37:31.960 Like, that's going to happen.

01:37:33.380 And that's also a place

01:37:35.640 where the kind of resentments

01:37:37.480 that tear families apart

01:37:38.880 can start to develop, eh?

01:37:40.120 Because you can be resentful

01:37:41.940 about your wife

01:37:43.280 because she isn't there

01:37:44.060 and then you can be resentful

01:37:45.240 of your daughter

01:37:45.900 because she's taking you

01:37:46.820 away from your wife.

01:37:47.920 And then you'll deny all that

01:37:49.360 because you'll think,

01:37:50.200 well, I'm not the sort of person

01:37:51.240 that could be jealous of a baby.

01:37:52.760 It's like,

01:37:53.420 oh yes, you are.

01:37:54.900 You definitely are

01:37:56.000 and so is everyone else.

01:37:57.220 So these things

01:37:57.900 have to be managed.

01:37:58.940 And so one of the things

01:38:00.360 we discovered,

01:38:01.040 this was actually

01:38:01.620 my wife's suggestion

01:38:02.580 that once,

01:38:04.180 say after that six-month period

01:38:06.080 where your wife

01:38:06.840 has the wherewithal

01:38:07.780 potentially to attend to you

01:38:09.280 to some degree,

01:38:10.500 let's say,

01:38:10.960 and to want to do that,

01:38:13.060 we start,

01:38:13.840 that's when we started

01:38:14.680 our practice of regular dates.

01:38:18.060 You know,

01:38:18.400 and we have done that

01:38:20.700 for, I don't know how long,

01:38:22.800 35 years now,

01:38:24.060 you know,

01:38:24.260 like we make dates

01:38:25.640 two to three times a week

01:38:27.260 and we've done that

01:38:27.960 for that long.

01:38:28.880 And that's a really smart idea

01:38:30.860 because one of the things

01:38:31.780 you'll find

01:38:32.380 is that

01:38:33.580 you're going to be

01:38:35.720 way busier

01:38:36.660 than you can possibly imagine

01:38:38.080 once you have this baby

01:38:39.240 and even more so

01:38:40.080 if you have more kids.

01:38:41.200 Like,

01:38:41.500 it's a real

01:38:42.340 threshold

01:38:44.380 transformation,

01:38:46.120 right?

01:38:46.700 Because now you have

01:38:47.440 someone really vulnerable

01:38:48.620 and you are responsible

01:38:50.380 for them.

01:38:50.860 Like,

01:38:51.320 it's unlike anything

01:38:52.420 you'll have ever done.

01:38:53.500 Now,

01:38:53.680 you're a disciplined guy,

01:38:54.780 so, you know,

01:38:55.440 you have taste of that

01:38:56.340 sort of thing,

01:38:56.860 but it's still,

01:38:58.140 it's a watershed moment.

01:39:00.820 And because you're so busy now,

01:39:05.080 it's easy for your relationship

01:39:07.140 with your wife

01:39:08.000 to become secondary

01:39:09.860 or even number 11

01:39:12.080 on a list of 10 priorities,

01:39:14.000 you know?

01:39:14.880 And that's not good.

01:39:16.300 And so,

01:39:16.800 my sense is that

01:39:18.940 couples

01:39:19.320 who are embarking

01:39:20.520 on the process

01:39:21.180 of having kids

01:39:21.880 have to

01:39:22.440 make a conscious

01:39:24.400 commitment

01:39:26.260 to

01:39:27.240 placing each other

01:39:28.980 first

01:39:29.740 for some amount

01:39:32.200 of time

01:39:32.980 during the

01:39:34.740 during the months

01:39:36.800 the weeks

01:39:37.760 and months ahead.

01:39:38.760 It can't,

01:39:39.540 you can't just wait around

01:39:40.780 for it to happen

01:39:41.620 because you don't have

01:39:42.920 the bandwidth.

01:39:44.900 And so,

01:39:45.340 and this has been,

01:39:46.480 this is something

01:39:47.160 we've got better

01:39:47.920 and better at too.

01:39:48.860 And I would say

01:39:49.420 cumulatively,

01:39:50.640 you know,

01:39:50.980 over all the decades

01:39:52.140 is that the dates

01:39:53.460 we have just get

01:39:54.280 better and better

01:39:54.920 just like

01:39:55.900 because of practice.

01:39:58.440 But

01:39:58.580 negotiate,

01:40:00.440 so if you know,

01:40:01.340 you know,

01:40:01.600 you're going to have

01:40:02.480 to leave your wife

01:40:03.200 to the baby

01:40:03.700 for six months

01:40:04.480 and then maybe

01:40:05.020 she'll be able

01:40:05.500 to come back to you

01:40:06.300 and then,

01:40:06.920 but having a plan

01:40:07.880 for that,

01:40:09.080 you know,

01:40:09.380 like to begin with,

01:40:10.560 she's still going

01:40:11.040 to be pretty tired.

01:40:11.860 It might be that,

01:40:12.860 you know,

01:40:13.200 you have someone

01:40:15.380 take care of the baby

01:40:16.520 while you're at home

01:40:17.900 and you guys

01:40:18.420 have dinner together.

01:40:19.500 Something that simpler.

01:40:20.420 You watch a movie together,

01:40:21.360 you know,

01:40:21.540 it's got to kind of

01:40:22.080 start out slow.

01:40:23.260 But having a conscious plan

01:40:25.160 for how you're going

01:40:25.980 to prioritize

01:40:26.580 your relationship,

01:40:27.880 given that you now

01:40:28.740 have a baby

01:40:29.220 to take care of,

01:40:30.040 that's going to save you

01:40:31.140 a lot of misery

01:40:31.760 and grief as well.

01:40:33.580 Absolutely.

01:40:34.100 Yeah,

01:40:34.280 that preemptive planning

01:40:35.360 is something

01:40:35.780 I've been processing

01:40:37.520 a lot,

01:40:37.940 especially recently

01:40:38.640 because she's also

01:40:40.100 in pregnancy.

01:40:41.860 Of course,

01:40:42.280 they create connection

01:40:43.060 and they're building

01:40:44.060 their home

01:40:44.500 and almost nesting,

01:40:45.340 I guess you could say.

01:40:46.420 And I've been going

01:40:47.340 through a large,

01:40:48.180 very large growth phase

01:40:49.280 of my business

01:40:50.820 that I own here in Florida

01:40:51.780 and we've been traveling

01:40:52.900 a lot for that.

01:40:53.580 So I've been out of town a lot

01:40:54.600 and you were talking

01:40:55.700 about part of your worries

01:40:57.180 when you were having a child

01:40:58.140 where you got to get

01:40:58.860 your PhD,

01:40:59.520 which is also good

01:41:00.400 for your family long term

01:41:01.440 so that you're able

01:41:02.120 to provide for them.

01:41:03.080 And that's partly

01:41:03.880 what I'm processing

01:41:04.760 and going through right now

01:41:05.620 is it's taking me away

01:41:06.560 a little bit right now.

01:41:07.620 But I understand long term

01:41:08.600 it's going to provide

01:41:09.980 for my family

01:41:10.560 so it's going to be best

01:41:11.340 for them.

01:41:12.380 But then,

01:41:13.440 let's say over the next

01:41:14.720 three months

01:41:15.200 in the first three months

01:41:16.060 of the year,

01:41:16.420 I'm home for about

01:41:17.160 eight days,

01:41:17.920 ten days.

01:41:19.160 And Courtney's home

01:41:19.880 all the time

01:41:20.360 so I need to be

01:41:21.280 a lot more conscientious

01:41:22.420 when I come home

01:41:22.980 of being planned

01:41:23.520 or like,

01:41:23.840 okay,

01:41:23.980 I'm only back for three days.

01:41:25.260 We need to plan ahead

01:41:26.240 that we're going to do

01:41:27.000 date nights every time

01:41:27.760 I'm back

01:41:28.120 because we need that time

01:41:29.360 to connect.

01:41:31.440 So great practice

01:41:32.060 like you said

01:41:32.620 where I might feel busy now

01:41:34.760 but when there's a child

01:41:35.460 in the mix of all that

01:41:36.280 it's going to be tenfold.

01:41:38.400 So being able to

01:41:39.520 preemptively plan ahead

01:41:40.800 and actually build structure

01:41:42.200 and routine

01:41:42.680 where you're planning

01:41:43.340 those moments of connection

01:41:44.580 rather than just

01:41:45.280 waiting for them

01:41:46.320 to naturally happen

01:41:47.200 which maybe when you're young

01:41:48.720 and you just,

01:41:49.840 it's Friday night,

01:41:50.400 let's go out,

01:41:50.880 we're not tired,

01:41:51.420 let's have fun.

01:41:51.840 It used to happen naturally.

01:41:53.220 But as life picks up

01:41:54.400 you need to be a lot more attentive

01:41:55.940 to actually planning ahead

01:41:57.880 and making sure it happens.

01:41:58.700 Yeah, well and you also

01:41:59.460 got to learn

01:42:00.120 with each other

01:42:01.000 because there's going to be,

01:42:03.600 imagine there's an optimal

01:42:04.900 balance between,

01:42:07.000 look,

01:42:07.600 if you're going to have

01:42:08.280 Thanksgiving dinner

01:42:09.220 you don't want to eat

01:42:10.680 a pizza

01:42:11.420 like at four in the afternoon,

01:42:13.260 right?

01:42:13.460 You want to be optimally hungry

01:42:14.820 and it's a state

01:42:17.220 of optimal deprivation

01:42:18.480 and so you also want to

01:42:19.600 negotiate with that

01:42:20.420 with your wife,

01:42:21.160 you know,

01:42:21.380 as you progress

01:42:22.680 through your marriage

01:42:23.860 it's like,

01:42:24.580 how much time do you have

01:42:25.700 to spend with each other?

01:42:26.760 But how much time

01:42:28.700 do you have to spend

01:42:29.560 apart

01:42:30.060 or in a state

01:42:31.200 of desire,

01:42:32.720 right,

01:42:33.120 to make all of that optimal?

01:42:35.460 You know,

01:42:35.680 and that's,

01:42:36.260 that's a very subtle thing

01:42:37.880 to get right.

01:42:39.000 You know,

01:42:39.360 like my wife

01:42:40.100 needs to be alone

01:42:41.180 more than me

01:42:41.980 and she is a lot

01:42:44.400 more fun to be around

01:42:45.680 and a lot more

01:42:46.420 interested in me

01:42:47.500 if I leave her

01:42:48.760 the hell alone more.

01:42:49.780 and because I would

01:42:53.000 likely choose,

01:42:55.640 what would you say?

01:42:56.960 I'm more cuddly,

01:42:59.020 God,

01:42:59.340 what a horrible thing

01:43:00.100 to say and admit

01:43:01.100 than she is,

01:43:02.220 you know,

01:43:02.500 and it's easy to be put off

01:43:03.820 by her somewhat

01:43:06.200 prickly exterior.

01:43:08.420 She's very playful

01:43:09.200 but kind of rough,

01:43:10.240 you know,

01:43:10.440 and so she's kind of

01:43:11.900 a prickly person

01:43:12.720 and it's actually

01:43:14.060 something I like about her

01:43:15.100 but,

01:43:15.980 you know,

01:43:16.280 we've had to

01:43:16.960 be very attentive

01:43:19.160 to find exactly

01:43:20.280 that balance,

01:43:21.240 you know,

01:43:21.500 so that I'm not

01:43:23.100 around her too much

01:43:24.160 so that she can come

01:43:26.060 to miss me

01:43:27.080 so that when we are

01:43:28.220 together that

01:43:28.920 we're both extremely

01:43:31.000 happy about it,

01:43:31.880 you know,

01:43:32.100 and that's something

01:43:32.820 that this regular

01:43:34.160 practice of planned

01:43:35.600 togetherness,

01:43:37.520 that can also foster

01:43:38.800 that because you can

01:43:39.540 learn that.

01:43:40.240 It's like,

01:43:40.880 well,

01:43:41.800 because you can watch

01:43:42.520 yourself,

01:43:42.960 it's like you'll find out,

01:43:43.760 well,

01:43:43.880 when am I truly

01:43:45.080 happiest to see her?

01:43:47.000 Like,

01:43:47.240 under what conditions?

01:43:48.280 And she has to figure

01:43:49.080 that out with you too,

01:43:50.600 you know,

01:43:50.820 and that's a good

01:43:51.320 thing to discover

01:43:52.120 and you can discover

01:43:55.280 it if you make

01:43:56.400 that effort.

01:43:57.660 So,

01:43:58.020 well,

01:43:58.240 you have a big year

01:43:58.960 coming up,

01:43:59.620 eh?

01:44:00.240 With a new baby?

01:44:01.760 Yeah.

01:44:01.900 And when is your

01:44:03.060 next major competition?

01:44:05.200 It's in October

01:44:06.080 this year.

01:44:07.940 End of the year.

01:44:08.300 And so you start

01:44:09.260 really ramping up

01:44:10.180 for that win?

01:44:13.580 Depends on how

01:44:14.420 everything goes

01:44:15.140 in the year

01:44:15.460 but maybe around July.

01:44:16.440 Right,

01:44:18.560 okay,

01:44:18.900 okay,

01:44:19.160 and you're

01:44:19.440 going to figure

01:44:19.820 out how to

01:44:20.260 do that

01:44:20.580 with this

01:44:20.980 new child

01:44:21.460 in your life

01:44:22.000 too.

01:44:22.960 That's the

01:44:23.820 challenge that

01:44:24.380 we're going

01:44:24.620 to be working

01:44:24.940 on this year,

01:44:25.560 yeah.

01:44:25.820 Right,

01:44:26.180 right,

01:44:26.540 right.

01:44:26.960 Well,

01:44:27.300 you've got a

01:44:27.700 lot of good

01:44:28.080 things sitting

01:44:29.360 there in front

01:44:29.920 of you.

01:44:30.600 A lot of

01:44:30.960 new mountains

01:44:31.580 by the sounds

01:44:32.520 of things.

01:44:33.480 For sure.

01:44:34.220 And so,

01:44:35.140 I've been lucky

01:44:35.780 that I was

01:44:37.120 talking about

01:44:37.600 bodybuilding

01:44:38.020 forever for me,

01:44:39.100 so as I'm

01:44:39.440 approaching what

01:44:39.960 I feel like

01:44:40.360 at the end

01:44:40.620 of my career,

01:44:41.760 these new

01:44:42.180 mountains are

01:44:42.680 forming in front

01:44:43.360 of me.

01:44:43.600 So it feels

01:44:44.740 like everything's

01:44:45.320 kind of coming

01:44:45.820 as it's meant

01:44:46.300 to be,

01:44:46.760 and hopefully

01:44:48.240 beautiful culmination

01:44:49.760 of the journey

01:44:50.400 was the beginning

01:44:50.980 of a new one

01:44:51.660 that will be

01:44:53.260 discovering my

01:44:53.860 new mountains

01:44:54.340 and new forms

01:44:55.360 of growth

01:44:55.840 and new ways

01:44:56.760 to find fulfillment.

01:44:57.680 So I'm very

01:44:58.020 excited.

01:44:59.200 Right,

01:44:59.440 right.

01:44:59.660 Well,

01:44:59.840 it's very wise

01:45:00.560 to be looking

01:45:01.140 ahead to that

01:45:01.760 already and not

01:45:02.520 to be,

01:45:04.020 it's a really

01:45:04.640 good thing

01:45:05.240 to know

01:45:05.800 this is something

01:45:07.240 you can learn

01:45:08.040 as you get

01:45:08.520 older and

01:45:09.000 hypothetically

01:45:09.520 wiser.

01:45:09.960 like,

01:45:10.720 it's not

01:45:11.020 such a bad

01:45:11.540 thing to

01:45:12.200 leave the

01:45:14.000 party when

01:45:14.440 it's going

01:45:14.800 strong,

01:45:15.660 especially if

01:45:16.300 you've got

01:45:16.620 something else

01:45:17.540 exciting,

01:45:18.220 you know,

01:45:18.800 beckoning to

01:45:19.360 you around

01:45:20.300 the next

01:45:20.680 corner,

01:45:22.200 you know,

01:45:22.800 and you can

01:45:23.940 imagine,

01:45:24.820 athletes in

01:45:25.560 particular,

01:45:26.320 you know,

01:45:26.620 they have their

01:45:27.100 glory days,

01:45:27.960 for sure,

01:45:29.000 and it's very

01:45:29.480 much dependent

01:45:30.040 on youth

01:45:31.580 and the

01:45:33.180 cutting edge

01:45:33.740 that that

01:45:34.140 youth gives

01:45:34.680 you,

01:45:34.980 and you

01:45:36.240 have to know

01:45:36.960 when you're

01:45:38.240 at the peak

01:45:38.700 of your game

01:45:39.220 and when the

01:45:39.700 time to

01:45:40.300 move on

01:45:41.140 arrives.

01:45:42.180 That is

01:45:42.640 earlier in

01:45:43.140 athletes'

01:45:43.660 lives generally

01:45:44.200 than in

01:45:44.600 other people's

01:45:45.160 lives,

01:45:45.440 and having

01:45:46.160 the wisdom

01:45:46.620 to see

01:45:47.580 that and

01:45:48.140 to not

01:45:48.880 only accept

01:45:49.460 but welcome

01:45:50.120 it,

01:45:51.340 know that

01:45:51.780 that's one

01:45:53.100 thing you can

01:45:53.540 do to make

01:45:53.980 that transition,

01:45:55.140 I wouldn't

01:45:55.580 even say

01:45:56.060 easier,

01:45:56.540 but to allow

01:45:57.440 yourself to

01:45:57.960 transition to

01:45:58.560 something that

01:45:59.040 could even

01:45:59.440 be better.

01:46:00.640 I mean,

01:46:00.840 you've already

01:46:01.180 had spectacular

01:46:02.080 success,

01:46:02.920 but that doesn't

01:46:03.460 necessarily mean

01:46:04.340 that you've

01:46:06.080 reached your

01:46:06.460 peak,

01:46:07.180 and that's a

01:46:07.700 good thing to

01:46:08.100 know too.

01:46:09.220 For sure,

01:46:09.860 yeah.

01:46:10.160 I'm glad you

01:46:10.980 pulled back

01:46:11.460 that word

01:46:11.860 easier,

01:46:12.440 because as

01:46:14.220 I'm coming

01:46:14.660 more face-to-face

01:46:15.560 with the

01:46:16.200 transition,

01:46:17.020 and as you

01:46:17.360 said,

01:46:17.560 leaving the

01:46:17.900 party while

01:46:18.240 the party's

01:46:18.660 still fun,

01:46:19.520 it's feeling

01:46:20.200 more challenging

01:46:20.860 than I thought

01:46:21.820 it would be,

01:46:23.120 and as it

01:46:24.440 should be,

01:46:24.880 it shouldn't

01:46:25.260 feel easy,

01:46:26.160 especially because

01:46:26.720 I'm not leaving

01:46:27.640 something that

01:46:28.300 has turned

01:46:28.960 into something

01:46:29.400 I resent,

01:46:29.940 I'm leaving

01:46:30.300 something I

01:46:30.780 learned to

01:46:31.240 actually enjoy

01:46:31.960 more.

01:46:33.280 But everything

01:46:34.140 comes to an

01:46:34.740 end,

01:46:35.500 and like you

01:46:36.600 said,

01:46:36.800 sometimes that

01:46:37.760 leaving something

01:46:38.580 great behind will

01:46:39.220 lead to something

01:46:39.660 even greater,

01:46:40.400 and I'm glad

01:46:41.240 that I have

01:46:41.820 my family in

01:46:43.060 front of me to

01:46:43.540 be that

01:46:43.880 something much,

01:46:44.560 much greater.

01:46:45.620 Yeah,

01:46:46.100 that's a good

01:46:46.620 deal.

01:46:47.020 That's a good

01:46:47.480 deal.

01:46:48.140 All right,

01:46:48.500 so everybody

01:46:48.980 watching and

01:46:49.640 listening,

01:46:50.040 I'm going to

01:46:50.380 continue to

01:46:50.920 talk to Chris

01:46:51.600 on the Daily

01:46:52.340 Wire Plus

01:46:52.840 side of the

01:46:53.380 platform.

01:46:54.160 I think we're

01:46:54.700 going to talk

01:46:55.180 to begin with

01:46:55.880 about his

01:46:56.280 father,

01:46:56.740 because he's

01:46:57.240 made some

01:46:57.780 comments in

01:46:58.400 this YouTube

01:46:59.520 discussion about

01:47:02.680 his admiration

01:47:03.700 for his

01:47:04.180 father,

01:47:04.640 and also

01:47:05.200 his discovery

01:47:06.020 or adoption

01:47:08.400 even of the

01:47:09.140 role of dad

01:47:10.020 in the

01:47:10.700 enterprise that

01:47:11.800 he's pursuing.

01:47:12.520 And so we're

01:47:12.800 going to delve

01:47:13.180 into that a

01:47:14.140 little bit

01:47:14.440 further,

01:47:15.040 as well as

01:47:15.740 some other

01:47:16.400 autobiographical

01:47:17.160 details,

01:47:17.880 and anything

01:47:18.420 that happens to

01:47:19.080 come up that's

01:47:19.740 interesting as a

01:47:21.040 consequence.

01:47:21.600 So if you'd

01:47:22.300 like to join us

01:47:22.920 there, please

01:47:23.480 do.

01:47:24.120 You can consider

01:47:24.780 throwing some

01:47:25.440 support to

01:47:26.040 Daily Wire Plus

01:47:26.780 way, which I

01:47:27.420 think isn't such

01:47:28.020 a bad idea,

01:47:28.740 given that they're

01:47:29.780 staunch advocates

01:47:30.920 for the kind of

01:47:31.740 free speech and

01:47:32.580 free inquiry that

01:47:33.420 we all desperately

01:47:34.600 need, especially

01:47:35.980 now.

01:47:36.780 And so, Chris,

01:47:37.760 thank you very

01:47:38.640 much for agreeing

01:47:39.340 to talk to me

01:47:39.900 today.

01:47:40.260 That was very

01:47:41.680 engaging and a

01:47:43.180 lot of fun, and

01:47:43.880 I appreciate that.

01:47:45.020 And also for

01:47:45.900 your willingness

01:47:47.180 to discuss

01:47:48.700 so forthrightly

01:47:49.800 the obstacles

01:47:51.780 that, you know,

01:47:52.880 you still see in

01:47:53.600 front of you and

01:47:54.240 that have caused

01:47:55.740 you a certain

01:47:56.220 amount of

01:47:56.620 distress that

01:47:57.400 you're busily

01:47:58.760 working to

01:47:59.440 master and

01:48:00.520 overcome.

01:48:01.280 It's very useful

01:48:02.060 for people to

01:48:02.640 hear about that

01:48:03.180 sort of thing.

01:48:03.740 So, you know, I

01:48:04.660 think you do

01:48:05.060 people a real

01:48:05.620 service when you

01:48:06.420 are willing to

01:48:07.920 talk so

01:48:09.880 straightly about

01:48:11.280 such things, as

01:48:12.380 you've seen, you

01:48:13.060 know, you've seen

01:48:13.440 the impact that

01:48:14.100 that's had on

01:48:14.660 people.

01:48:15.380 And to the

01:48:15.720 Daily Wire Plus

01:48:16.380 people, thank you,

01:48:17.260 and for the film

01:48:18.020 crew here in

01:48:18.900 Toronto for

01:48:20.140 facilitating this,

01:48:21.400 much appreciated.

01:48:22.640 And to everyone

01:48:23.080 watching and

01:48:23.600 listening, your

01:48:24.140 time and attention

01:48:24.900 is always appreciated

01:48:26.320 and not taken for

01:48:27.760 granted.

01:48:28.920 Ciao, Chris.

01:48:30.080 Good to get to

01:48:30.680 know you, man.

01:48:31.500 Likewise.

01:48:32.140 I appreciate the

01:48:32.940 conversation.

01:48:33.640 It's been an

01:48:34.360 honor and you've

01:48:35.020 helped me as well

01:48:35.760 just talking through

01:48:36.420 things that helps me

01:48:37.120 process and learn.

01:48:38.560 So, thank you for

01:48:39.420 this conversation and

01:48:40.980 the previous one-sided

01:48:42.240 conversations we've had

01:48:43.240 listening to over the

01:48:43.940 years.

01:48:44.200 It's an honor to be on

01:48:45.300 this podcast with you.

01:48:46.940 Thank you very much,

01:48:47.660 sir.

01:48:47.760 Thank you.

01:48:49.920 Thank you.

01:48:50.320 Thank you.

01:48:51.480 Thank you.

01:48:52.840 Thank you.

01:48:53.880 Thank you.

01:48:58.320 Thank you.

01:49:05.700 Thank you.

01:49:06.420 Thank you.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - February 15, 2024

423. Greatness, Marriage, Parenthood, & Climbing New Mountains ｜ Chris Bumstead

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