The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 425. Negotiating a Raise — and a Better Life ｜ Chris Voss

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00:00:57.420 Hello, everybody. I'm speaking to Chris Voss today, an American author, teacher, and hostage negotiator for the FBI.

00:01:15.820 We talk primarily about negotiation with forays into the psychology of listening, the rationale of listening.

00:01:24.440 We're attempting to sort out and to clarify exactly what it means to negotiate successfully, positing, I suppose, that the ultimate goal of a negotiation should be something like the establishment of a productive, long-term, generous, mutual collaboration.

00:01:42.220 And to expand even that, to understand that a good collaboration involves the joint pursuit of mutual desire, let's say, but also the joint pursuit of the ability to expand the understanding of what that desire might be across time.

00:01:58.900 That's how a relationship grows.

00:02:00.780 So we talk about how to do that.

00:02:02.200 We talk about how to listen and do that, concentrating as well on the fact that if you listen to people, they'll tell you what they need and want, and then you can be in a position to provide that and to be of utility in the long-term, sustainable, productive, generous relationship.

00:02:18.900 So welcome to the discussion.

00:02:22.620 So, Chris, let's start with this.

00:02:26.420 Why don't you tell me and everybody who's watching and listening what it means to negotiate?

00:02:34.420 And let me put a little context around that.

00:02:37.280 One of the things I really noticed as a clinician was that people are remarkably bad at negotiating, and they're not trained in it ever.

00:02:46.680 And so that really hurts people because it means that they, frequently it means they don't know what they want.

00:02:54.400 They don't know what the person who they're dealing with wants.

00:02:58.480 And even if they do know what they want, they don't know when to talk about it.

00:03:03.900 They become bitter often about the fact that they're not talking about it, and they have no idea how to proceed.

00:03:09.740 And that's, it's unbelievably common.

00:03:12.300 So tell me what you think negotiating means and how you got interested in it, and also if that, if that's how you conceptualize yourself fundamentally as a negotiator or communications facilitator.

00:03:26.240 Yeah, well, for me to negotiate is to collaborate and find a better outcome.

00:03:34.340 In the early days, I was always teaching the adversary is not the person on the other side of the table.

00:03:40.140 The adversary is the situation.

00:03:42.300 And then if you're negotiating with, and negotiating with versus against people, but negotiating with somebody, you're faced with two aspects, different aspects of the same problem.

00:03:53.740 And if you can collaborate, then not only might you solve the problem, you might come up with a better outcome.

00:04:01.720 And I kind of backed into this because I wanted to be a hostage negotiator.

00:04:07.160 I didn't really know what it was about, how complicated it was going to be, how satisfying it was going to be.

00:04:12.300 And I remember I was on a SWAT team with the FBI, and I wanted to switch over to hostage negotiation because I had a recurring knee injury.

00:04:21.280 And I like crisis response.

00:04:22.880 And I thought, you know, I could negotiate those.

00:04:24.580 See, I could talk to terrorists.

00:04:25.620 How hard could it be?

00:04:26.560 You know, my son and I have always joked that the Voss family motto is how hard could it be?

00:04:31.000 So stuff that looks really easy is often incredibly challenging.

00:04:37.960 So I volunteered on a suicide hotline, which is just about listening to people.

00:04:43.960 And suddenly, you know, you get a change in behavior in a very short period of time by listening to people.

00:04:49.700 And so that's, and to your point about people not knowing what they want, in point of fact, I've learned it's impossible to know the best outcome because you don't have all the facts.

00:05:03.360 And so going with an open mind and you probably discover something new and do it in a way that the person wants to talk to you again.

00:05:10.860 And then there's a long tail.

00:05:14.480 So that's, those are some of the high points, I think.

00:05:18.460 Okay, okay.

00:05:19.480 So, well, let's dive into, you mentioned a number of things here and I'll outline them and then we'll delve into them sort of point by point.

00:05:29.260 So.

00:05:29.900 You're paying close attention.

00:05:30.980 I worked with people.

00:05:32.940 I'm doing my best, man.

00:05:34.300 I worked with my clients a lot, practically.

00:05:41.040 I did a lot of business consulting.

00:05:43.060 I did a lot of work with people who were trying to develop their careers.

00:05:47.040 I did a lot of strategizing around things like, I wouldn't say raising people's salaries because that's not the right way to think about it, but helping them develop the skills and confidence to maximize their economic potential and to develop plans around that.

00:06:02.780 So, and one of the things we could zero in on that might be of interest to people is, for example, is negotiating a raise.

00:06:11.580 Now, you said that you want to collaborate and find a better solution, that you talk with someone, not against.

00:06:19.560 And that reminded me as well of the necessity of developing a joint vision.

00:06:23.620 So, let me tell you what we used to do in practical terms when I was setting someone up to have a conversation with their boss about advancement, including a raise.

00:06:36.640 Sometimes people don't necessarily want a raise.

00:06:39.280 They want opportunity and they want advancement.

00:06:41.560 And the only way they can conceptualize that is as more money.

00:06:44.940 Right.

00:06:45.120 And so, you have to get that straight too.

00:06:46.720 But, so, you know, I said my principles were something like, it's very difficult to negotiate if you are not in a position to say no, no matter what.

00:06:57.320 Okay.

00:06:57.580 So, I would make sure my clients had their CV well prepped, that we had filled in any gaps, that they knew the job market around them, and that they were ready and willing to look for another job if necessary.

00:07:10.900 So, then they weren't terrified.

00:07:13.520 Right.

00:07:14.080 They weren't taking themselves hostage.

00:07:17.040 Exactly.

00:07:17.620 Exactly.

00:07:18.160 Because, yeah, it also meant they had a better sense of their actual market value.

00:07:25.420 Right.

00:07:25.880 Because that's something you actually need to do if you're going to negotiate for advancement or a raise.

00:07:30.140 It's like, well, what evidence?

00:07:32.300 You can't get a raise just because you want one.

00:07:34.860 Everyone wants a raise.

00:07:36.780 Right.

00:07:37.220 And you have to understand that your manager is dealing with financial constraints and the fact that everyone wants a raise.

00:07:45.860 So, you have to make a case.

00:07:48.080 And then you might say you could make a case with a threat, and one threat might be, well, if you don't give me a raise, I'll leave.

00:07:54.760 But generally, all you do is put people's back up with an approach like that.

00:07:58.720 You may need to have that in your back pocket just to make you confident.

00:08:02.780 But my notion was, and I was dealing with people who either were credible or who had put themselves in a position to be credible.

00:08:12.240 What they would deliver to the boss was, first of all, a statement of their value and a description of that.

00:08:19.780 Because you don't know how much your boss knows about the work you do, especially if you're one of those people who does your work quietly and well and sort of invisibly.

00:08:28.060 And that's even worse if you're agreeable so that other people can take advantage of your work and pretend it's theirs.

00:08:33.540 So, the first thing you might want to do is make sure that your boss actually knows what you do without being chest-thumping about it.

00:08:41.820 And then you might say what it is that you could offer if you were offered additional opportunity.

00:08:48.520 And that might be, you know, like the observation that if you don't believe that you're making what you're worth in the market,

00:08:56.180 that your motivation is less than it might be or that you don't feel that you've been valued by the organization.

00:09:01.300 And so, if you had a pathway forward, you'd be more committed to the joint goal that you share with your boss.

00:09:09.240 And hopefully, you have one in relationship.

00:09:11.140 You have to make a case for what it is that's in it for him too and also, or her,

00:09:17.960 and also ensure that if he has to go make a case to his superior that he's completely armed and ready to do that.

00:09:25.520 So, you don't assume that you're in an antagonistic relationship with your boss.

00:09:31.720 And if you are, and that's intractable, then, you know, it might be time to think about either a radically new approach to your work or a different job.

00:09:39.100 But if not, you assume that you could present him with a solution.

00:09:43.620 So, anyways, those were some of the ground rules that we established.

00:09:47.340 And so, I'm kind of curious about how you might elaborate on that and what you think about that.

00:09:53.360 Yeah, I love it.

00:09:54.300 I mean, those are great ideas.

00:09:55.580 Those are great starting points.

00:09:57.760 And, you know, what I might add to the basis of that conversation, like the first part about, you know, having a resume, knowing what the market is, not taking yourself hostage.

00:10:10.720 One of the things that I loved, that I learned from being a hostage negotiator is how to negotiate without a net.

00:10:20.420 And my Harvard brothers and sisters would call that bat now. 0.99

00:10:23.580 What's the best alternative to negotiated agreement?

00:10:27.060 And that's so that you release yourself of fears, that you don't take yourself hostage.

00:10:31.680 You can go in with no alternative and have enough faith in a process to just be engaged, to be curious, to listen, to discover the better outcome.

00:10:43.180 And so, the bat now idea or the alternative's idea is a good starting point if you feel like you're taking yourself hostage.

00:10:51.580 But what it really is, is it's to create this psychological construct so that you don't freeze up, so that you don't take yourself hostage.

00:10:59.540 And as hostage negotiators, you know, we just never, theoretically, we never had a bat now.

00:11:04.820 You know, you got to make the deal.

00:11:06.680 You got to work it out.

00:11:08.040 And you kind of get used to walking that tightrope without a net, and then it's no big deal.

00:11:14.420 But the principle to begin with is how to not take yourself hostage.

00:11:18.700 And that's a brilliant principle to start with.

00:11:21.220 Okay, what does it mean?

00:11:22.200 Give me some examples of what it would mean for someone in a practical situation or even in a dire situation to take themselves hostage.

00:11:29.260 And maybe a story or two about that, and also some illustration of how you circumvent that error.

00:11:39.780 Yeah, well, it's like, I don't have a better job.

00:11:42.460 I got to take this job.

00:11:44.120 And I'm coming out of, you know, I did, right after I left the Bureau, to sharpen up my resume and to create some better opportunities.

00:11:53.360 And I went to Harvard Kennedy School of Government, got a master's there, which is astonishing that they let me in.

00:12:02.600 You know, very average blue-colored dude from the Midwest.

00:12:05.460 And then afterwards, the job market was horrible.

00:12:10.040 Come out of Harvard, 2008, depth of financial crisis.

00:12:14.280 I mean, no jobs anywhere.

00:12:15.840 And one of my colleagues is fellow students.

00:12:21.900 He's like, look, I'm trying to negotiate for a job, and I got to take the job.

00:12:27.640 There aren't any jobs out there.

00:12:30.320 And they're going to ask me what I made in my last job, and it's going to be half of what I need to make now.

00:12:37.920 And I can't answer that question.

00:12:39.860 And I said, like, all right, so here's what we're going to do.

00:12:44.520 You're going to go in with some great calibrated questions.

00:12:49.480 Calibrated questions, in my vernacular, Black Swan Method, is not questions to get answers, but questions to create thoughts in the other side's mind.

00:12:59.780 Open their brain up a little bit.

00:13:01.420 You want to get completely out of the concept.

00:13:03.680 The fact that you don't have alternatives doesn't change your value to this company.

00:13:06.960 And the fact that you don't have alternatives does not change anything about their ability to pay you and how much you can contribute if you're the right guy that gets dropped into the right job.

00:13:19.860 And so you've got to ask them what happens if you guys don't fill this role.

00:13:26.360 How can I be most successful for you?

00:13:30.640 And how am I supposed to accept a salary that's half of what I'm worth?

00:13:37.540 You know, these are deferential questions.

00:13:40.380 Okay, so let me ask you about that.

00:13:43.560 So one of the things I want from someone that I partner with, and this would include someone I'm hiring as well, say, as a peer relationship.

00:13:53.620 I want to know what agreement we can come to that I'm thrilled about, that I know they're equally thrilled about.

00:14:00.840 And there's a technical reason that I want that.

00:14:04.480 I mean, there's two sources of motivation, fundamentally.

00:14:07.540 There's goading by negative emotion, like pain and fear.

00:14:10.960 And there's enticement by positive motivation.

00:14:13.720 And that's usually associated with hope in relationship to a goal.

00:14:18.220 And so for the gentleman that you just described, who's feeling constrained because he only has one option, which is take the job or leave it.

00:14:25.720 And he thinks the only option is take it.

00:14:28.700 He still has a question to ask himself.

00:14:32.380 And this is a really profound question.

00:14:34.800 It requires honesty.

00:14:35.760 And the profound question is, what circumstances have, do I have to be, do I have to have in place so that I can devote myself wholeheartedly to this job?

00:14:49.340 So how can I exit the interview and accept this new job feeling that I have a landscape of opportunity in front of me and bereft of resentment?

00:14:58.840 And that will require, if someone's going to ask themselves that, that will require that they prioritize their needs and wants.

00:15:07.080 And salary may be one of those things.

00:15:09.360 But, you know, you could imagine that there might be other ways of even moving around that, so to speak.

00:15:14.780 Because you might be able to offer your new employer the following deal.

00:15:20.140 It's like, well, I'll take a starting salary that's less than I would regard as optimal or even necessary.

00:15:25.460 But I want to know that if I hit a certain set of standards within a certain time, that there's a pathway to improve financial returns that opens up to me that we all agree on.

00:15:38.120 And you tell the person you're negotiating with that the reason you want that is because, like, we're not playing around here.

00:15:43.840 We're trying to negotiate optimal motivation.

00:15:47.300 And I want to be able to assure you when I leave the motivation or the negotiation that I am thrilled with the outcome.

00:15:54.240 And because who the hell wants to hire someone who starts the job feeling like they've been taken advantage of and being resentful?

00:16:01.380 Like, that's a really bad way to get things going.

00:16:03.640 Okay, so you pointed out that your guy who thought he had to have the job still was in a position to tell his potential employers what it was that he had to offer to make a case for the value of his services.

00:16:18.820 And to point out what that is not only worth from the market perspective, but also in terms of his own motivation.

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00:18:02.660 Yeah, and there's a fit issue, too.

00:18:09.260 And like any other relationship, like a personal relationship, you know, business relationship, close relationship, significant other.

00:18:18.240 You got to get a fit.

00:18:19.300 And my favorite question, actually, is to ask in job interviews, every job interview and every annual review, talked to me by a friend of mine who's Tom McCabe, extraordinarily successful guy, CEO of an international bank.

00:18:35.400 We talked about this extensively.

00:18:38.900 We went to high school together.

00:18:40.480 His question is, how can I be guaranteed to be involved in projects that are critical to the strategic future of this organization?

00:18:50.800 And I said before, the calibrated question is designed to trigger thought.

00:18:54.540 That question immediately changes their perspective of you when you ask it.

00:19:02.080 Like, you're telling them, look, I want to advance everybody's life here.

00:19:06.020 I want to play in a big game.

00:19:08.020 I want to be with the people that are at the highest levels of performance in your company, and I want to move everybody forward.

00:19:15.260 With that one question, and it completely changes the outcome, because then it's not just what your skill set is for this particular job.

00:19:23.600 Maybe they got a job for you in the mailroom, but you want to be the head of the division, and you want to know how to get there, and you want to get there by succeeding and taking everybody with you.

00:19:36.500 Now, that's a game-changing conversation.

00:19:39.120 That's a completely different conversation.

00:19:41.120 Maybe they thought they were bringing somebody in to push a mail card around, and now you're somebody that says, yeah, not only will I do the little jobs to learn this from the bottom up,

00:19:51.860 but I want to make everybody's life better.

00:19:54.940 I want to help everybody succeed, and I'm willing to learn.

00:19:57.040 I'm coachable.

00:19:58.200 Now it's a different conversation.

00:20:01.020 So say that question again.

00:20:03.860 Well, I'm willing to learn, and I'm coachable, and I want to make everybody's life better.

00:20:07.560 I'm doing a virtual keynote a couple years ago, the CEO of the company and his entire sales team, and we got a keynote going, and one of his sales team had literally asked me while he's on the call, how do we negotiate with this guy to get more money?

00:20:24.780 And everybody's kind of holding their breath.

00:20:28.600 What am I going to say?

00:20:29.660 Am I going to say it in front of him?

00:20:31.720 And I said, ask him this question, and it was a question that I just gave you.

00:20:35.720 How can I be guaranteed to be involved in projects that are critical to our strategic future?

00:20:43.020 And when I said that question, he interrupted and said, I wish everybody on this call would ask me that.

00:20:50.140 Absolutely.

00:20:52.460 Well, you know, psychologically speaking, so again, with regard to motivation, people live on hope and opportunity to a large degree, and hope and opportunity are experienced in relationship to a goal.

00:21:07.980 And so to have hope and opportunity, you need two things.

00:21:12.120 You need a goal, and then you need to observe yourself walking on a pathway to that goal.

00:21:18.540 And so the lines that you just laid out there, how can I be positioned, I'm going to paraphrase it, and if I get it wrong, let me know, how can I position myself so that I'm in the company of and accompanying those who are moving forward to the destination the company actually wants to achieve?

00:21:36.480 How can I make sure that I'm doing that?

00:21:38.520 Well, you said, on the one hand, you're opening up the vision of the people that you're speaking to, and you're indicating to them very clearly that you want to be where the action is, and you're going to be a part of that.

00:21:51.440 But for yourself, what you've done is you've opened up the door to meaningful engagement with the company.

00:22:00.360 Now, the price you're going to have to pay for that is responsibility.

00:22:04.820 And that's why you can't use these sorts of questions as a technique, right? 0.97

00:22:09.860 If it's a technique, you're a liar.

00:22:11.520 If you've thought this through and that's what you want, well, then you're also the sort of person that anyone with any sense would want to hire.

00:22:18.300 Because it's certainly the case that when I'm—if you have any sense as a manager, when you hire someone, what you're actually doing them is offering a set of indeterminate opportunities.

00:22:30.420 And you're hoping that the person you're hiring is more qualified than they would need to be for the position that you're hiring them for.

00:22:38.740 Now, you may not regard that as a requirement, but you're certainly hoping for it.

00:22:43.320 And the best conversations I have with people that I might want to work with or have worked for me, let's say, are the conversations where they clearly indicate that they know where the enterprise is going and why.

00:22:56.920 They're perfectly willing to do the tasks that are part and parcel of the specified job.

00:23:01.820 But they've got an eye to the broader vision.

00:23:04.420 And then they have enough perspicacity and intelligence now and then to contribute.

00:23:09.940 Perspicacity?

00:23:10.820 Come on now.

00:23:11.600 I'm a regular guy from Iowa.

00:23:13.000 There you go.

00:23:13.700 There you go.

00:23:14.460 Yeah, yeah.

00:23:15.340 You went to Harvard.

00:23:16.640 You should be able to handle perspicacity.

00:23:18.520 So, and then, you know, you're, well, if you surround yourself with people like that, then you always have people who are looking out for where you're going with fresh sets of eyes and who are offering opportunities for you to go there too.

00:23:32.420 And that speaks to the idea that you had, that a negotiation is a collaboration.

00:23:37.760 You know, and you might say, well, I'm not collaborating with my boss.

00:23:40.380 It's like, well, if you're not collaborating with your boss, well, that's it.

00:23:44.920 Well, if you're not, you should think about if that's your problem or his problem or both your problems, or maybe it's time really to go look for some greener pastures.

00:23:55.140 Exactly.

00:23:55.640 Because if it's, if it is an adversarial relationship all the way to the bottom and you're being forced or compelled to do things you don't want to do against your wishes, then you're not optimally situated in your life.

00:24:08.460 Now, I know that sometimes by necessity, people can be stuck in situations like that for some period of time, but man, you need an escape route.

00:24:17.540 Like, you need to plot an escape route if you're in a situation like that.

00:24:21.040 Yeah.

00:24:21.520 Yeah.

00:24:21.760 And I'd like to touch on something else you mentioned just real quickly and talking about that, you know, when you ask that question that you really mean it.

00:24:28.620 I mean, we've had these discussions in my company and with the people that are running my company and who we're hiring.

00:24:33.140 And one of the things we make clear, like, if you can work for me, you're going to work hard.

00:24:38.200 We're going to work you hard.

00:24:39.220 You got to want it.

00:24:40.460 And the phrase that I'm using now is pressure makes diamonds, but you got to want to be a diamond.

00:24:44.940 And we're telling people that up front.

00:24:46.820 You want to be a diamond, we're going to take you there.

00:24:49.660 But you got to want to be a diamond.

00:24:51.440 You got to, you got to willing to be doing the work.

00:24:53.320 And you want to coast.

00:24:56.000 You want it to be, you know, something you do when you're not at home.

00:25:00.640 All right, that job's out there like that, but it ain't with me.

00:25:05.060 You know, pressure makes diamonds.

00:25:06.380 You got to want to be a diamond.

00:25:07.660 Yeah.

00:25:08.020 Well, one of the things I would also do to prepare with my clients, to prepare them for movement forward, was to work through the blind spots in their vision, let's say, and the knots in their life that might be interfering with their desire to be a diamond, you know, because people will also misconstrue that.

00:25:29.540 They'll think, well, I don't want to work too hard.

00:25:32.060 It's like, you're not thinking about the work properly if that's your attitude.

00:25:36.740 Because first of all, if you love what you're doing, you might really want to work hard.

00:25:41.560 And if you don't love it, that means you don't really see the point.

00:25:44.540 You don't see the end goal.

00:25:45.760 You don't see the value in it.

00:25:47.400 And then, you know, maybe you do see the value, but you're lazy and undisciplined.

00:25:52.020 And maybe you have your rationales for that too.

00:25:54.380 And so all that needs to be worked through, you know, because I do think that, first of all, most of the meaning in people's lives comes from the adoption of voluntary responsibility.

00:26:06.080 And most people do actually want to be diamonds, but they're afraid of the work.

00:26:09.960 And they're also afraid that it's going to be imposed on them, right?

00:26:12.780 And they're going to be forced into it.

00:26:14.400 And they don't have a vision of their own.

00:26:16.360 And so one of the things that everyone who's listening and watching might want to understand is that before you go into a job interview, you know, you might want to have done some serious thinking about just exactly why it is that you want this job.

00:26:31.780 And if the answer is, well, I need to pay next month's rent.

00:26:34.520 Like, fair enough, you know, but that is not a good enough reason.

00:26:38.160 That's not a vision for your life.

00:26:39.980 And that's not the sort of vision that's going to make you a compelling interviewee because you're shallow, right?

00:26:45.720 You haven't thought through why it is that you're going to do what you're doing.

00:26:50.000 You know, we have this program online called Future Authoring, and it helps people develop a vision for their life.

00:26:57.280 And so the game is this.

00:26:59.100 And you can think about this as preparation for a crucial job interview.

00:27:03.460 It's like, imagine yourself five years down the road.

00:27:07.720 Okay, so here's the game.

00:27:09.140 You can have what you want, but you have to specify what it is.

00:27:14.280 And then someone might say, well, you know, I don't really know what I want.

00:27:18.560 And fair enough, because that's a pretty vague and global question.

00:27:21.920 But the program then asks people seven questions.

00:27:25.060 It's like, what would your relationship look like, your primary relationship, your marriage, if it was functioning the way that you would want it to?

00:27:33.780 What about your friendship?

00:27:35.080 What about your business relationships?

00:27:37.520 Are you educating yourself?

00:27:39.100 How are you going to do that?

00:27:40.220 How do you keep yourself in mental and physical shape?

00:27:42.580 What are you going to do with your time outside of work?

00:27:45.740 You know, how are you going to serve the community?

00:27:49.460 So those are, and so that starts to differentiate it, right?

00:27:52.240 And then the game you play there with yourself is, okay, under what conditions would I be motivated to pursue success in those areas?

00:28:02.020 You know, and people are scared of this, partly because they don't want to reveal to themselves what they actually want, because they might betray themselves or be betrayed by the world.

00:28:13.400 And partly because they're afraid of the responsibility and they don't have enough faith.

00:28:17.140 But it's impossible to hit a target that you don't aim at.

00:28:21.840 And then you might say, well, why is that relevant to a job interview?

00:28:25.020 And there's a bunch of reasons, is that if the job interview goes well and you actually start to have a discussion rather than just a staged interview, if you have a vision for your own life, you're going to be able to see if this job will work for you.

00:28:38.280 And that also puts you in a good position in the interview, because you pointed out earlier, as we were talking, that, you know, even in a job interview, that's a negotiation.

00:28:48.800 And the reason it's a negotiation is because, well, you want the job, but hopefully they want you and you're the right person. 0.94

00:28:55.760 And so, really, the interview should be establishing the preconditions for the collaboration that you described, rather than, you know, pulling the wool over some idiot's eyes so that they'll hire you so you can slack off, which seems like a pretty damn dismal vision of what your life might be. 0.94

00:29:11.220 Right. Yeah, agreed. Agreed. 0.98

00:29:13.400 And thinking those things through, I mean, we've interviewed, I've had some interviews for assistants at my job recently that were cut short because the people that were doing the interviews didn't know what company they were interviewing for.

00:29:26.580 They got it mixed up.

00:29:28.500 And we're like, all right, so there's a certain lack of degree of preparation here.

00:29:32.460 Thank you very much for your time.

00:29:34.400 Right, right.

00:29:35.180 Yeah, yeah.

00:29:35.820 Well, you know, because, yeah, well, you're going to ask yourself, aren't you, if someone comes in and they don't know what it is that you do or what they want?

00:29:43.400 If someone comes in and they don't know what they would do, then the first question that would come to mind is something like, well, then what do they know?

00:29:51.080 Because that's so, that's such an elementary error that it, well, that it's essentially catastrophic.

00:29:58.700 Well, it's an indicator of what they're going to put into the job.

00:30:02.860 How you do anything is how you do everything.

00:30:04.540 That's right.

00:30:05.100 It's, well, what they already did put into the job because the most important task they had as a potential hiree was preparation for the interview.

00:30:15.300 And if they failed that, well, that's not a great start.

00:30:18.720 And that's especially true, you know, another thing for everybody watching and listening to think about, too, is that it is the case that first impressions are lasting.

00:30:27.060 There is a very long and dense psychological literature establishing that, you know, and so you want to be prepared enough in the interview so that people walk away from talking to you thinking, geez, you know, it'd be a good thing if we got that guy.

00:30:42.840 And certainly you're in a much better position to do something like salary negotiation if that's the impression and the valid impression, right?

00:30:52.340 That's another thing is this can't be, look, man, if you're going to start your new job on a stack of lies, you've already ensured your failure in some fundamental sense.

00:31:05.620 And so if you're afraid before you go into the interview that you're not prepared, you want to get prepared so that you're not afraid like that and so that you can go and you can admit your inadequacies, honestly, as long as they're not so, you know, absolutely multiple.

00:31:22.800 There's not so many of them that you're obviously not the candidate for the job.

00:31:28.600 Hey, Jordan, I'm going to have you coaching me on my next job interview.

00:31:31.740 You talked about listening.

00:31:36.640 Yeah.

00:31:37.280 Okay, so tell me about that and about paying attention and tell me how you learned why that was so important and tell me what you learned about how to listen.

00:31:50.100 Wow.

00:31:50.600 All right.

00:31:50.940 So actually listening as opposed to staying silent, it accelerates the process and you need a set of tools to keep you on track.

00:32:01.740 To dig into the information without the other side feeling interrogated.

00:32:05.320 And that was really what I learned way back when on the hotline.

00:32:09.380 You know, I get there first day, we get into the training.

00:32:12.980 And I remember the thing that struck me first was they said, all right, your calls are limited to 20 minutes.

00:32:20.180 And I remember thinking like, what, 20 minutes?

00:32:22.340 You got to be kidding me.

00:32:23.240 Like, you know, on TV, they're on the phone with people for hours, if not days, 20 minutes.

00:32:31.260 And they said, no, as a matter of fact, if you actually use the skills correctly, it'll take less than that.

00:32:38.780 And so you get taught a set of listening skills on how to dial in and the clues of what to listen for and then how to get the person interacting with you without making them feel interrogated.

00:32:51.080 And suddenly there were astonishing changes in behavior in a person on the other side.

00:32:56.340 You get somebody on the phone who's genuinely suicidal.

00:32:59.760 And 15, 17, 18 minutes later, they're in a good place and they're ready to go back and take on the world based on the experience.

00:33:11.920 So, and then I started learning some of the science after it, you know, science, pseudoscientists.

00:33:17.240 I'm, you know, I'm a layman.

00:33:18.580 I'm not a scientist.

00:33:19.220 But in our capacity, our capacity to hear words exceeds the amount of information we can keep in our head.

00:33:30.100 But the amount of information in your tone of voice is going to tell me more than the words are.

00:33:36.020 So how I learned to listen was the words are the starting point, but the tone of voice and the body language and what's the alignment.

00:33:42.380 And then if there's a shift in the alignment in that moment, you know, to look for it and then anticipate.

00:33:50.480 I know now that you're, you as a human being, you in general terms, the negativity is going to cloud your thinking more than anything else.

00:34:02.180 So I'm listening for those negatives.

00:34:04.640 And from the hotline and now what we do in a black swan method, how do I deactivate those negatives to clear your head or even anticipate them?

00:34:12.380 So it's supplied emotional intelligence.

00:34:15.800 And then why listen?

00:34:18.620 Because what we would call in hostage negotiation a change of behavior and in business negotiation or personal interactions,

00:34:26.720 you changing your mind as to the best outcome is going to come much more quickly and effectively and in a lasting way than if I talked you into it or if I misled you.

00:34:39.480 You know, I want whatever agreement we come to, to be durable, to last without me having to come back to you daily to see where we are.

00:34:51.180 And that's what listening is really about, understanding the nuances of what's now backed up by neuroscience

00:34:57.500 and what people in hostage negotiation and you as a practitioner in the field of human nature for years came to learn was the reality of how human beings think and how they react.

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00:36:19.340 Yeah, well you said you want to negotiate a durable solution.

00:36:24.900 And that means one that will sustain itself without you having to come back.

00:36:31.440 And so you could put it this way, barring, you can become a micromanager because you have a certain obsessiveness of character, let's say, and a certain intrinsic distrust.

00:36:44.640 And then that's something you should work on.

00:36:46.740 But you can also become a micromanager if you negotiate a very bad agreement with someone.

00:36:50.840 Because if you've talked them into it or forced them into it, then, and they feel that they've been taken advantage of, then their heart won't be in the task.

00:37:01.940 And what that will mean is that they will be looking for escape routes all the time instead of doing what they're supposed to be doing. 0.95

00:37:09.620 And that you'll have to go back to them in the most frustrating of manners and use up all your valuable time and energy trying to enforce a stupid agreement that you shouldn't have made to begin with.

00:37:20.100 You know, and this is part of the problem you said, you know, you don't want to talk someone into something. 0.51

00:37:25.240 Now, that's not the same as informing them about an opportunity that they might not have conceptualized in laying out a different route.

00:37:32.300 But really what you're aiming for is voluntary agreement, like full voluntary agreement.

00:37:36.740 And part of the reason, and you touched on this, part of the reason that listening is so necessary is because if you listen to the person, you can find out and help them find out what it is that they actually want and how that could conceivably be delivered to them.

00:37:54.000 And, you know, you might think the person already knows that, but it's not necessarily the case.

00:37:57.680 You know, people think, well, they're talking.

00:37:59.900 In fact, that's how most people think, period, is when they're talking.

00:38:03.380 And it also means if no one's listening to them, they almost never have an opportunity to think.

00:38:08.660 You know, you could imagine, like, even if you're running a restaurant, I shouldn't say even, it's very difficult to run a restaurant.

00:38:14.040 If you're running a restaurant, you're hiring a dishwasher.

00:38:16.940 One of the things you're going to be concerned about is whether that kid is going to show up to work because absenteeism in entry-level jobs like dishwashing is rife.

00:38:26.860 And the probability that the guy won't show up is pretty high.

00:38:29.480 And so that drives restaurateurs mad.

00:38:32.620 And so what you want to find out from the dishwasher, at least in principle, is how can we get you here 15 minutes early every day?

00:38:42.560 It's got to be a serious question.

00:38:44.020 It's like, I want you to think about this for a minute.

00:38:46.080 You're 15, let's say.

00:38:47.960 You got your entry-level dishwasher jobs.

00:38:50.240 Like, under what conditions would you be pleased enough to come to this workplace so that you actually come?

00:38:58.100 And what impediments can you imagine that might arise and how can we set the situation up so that that probability is decreased?

00:39:05.580 And that is all.

00:39:06.480 You want to know from the kid that what he thinks might sideline him so that you can circumvent it if possible.

00:39:11.960 And obviously, the same thing applies as you scale up the sophistication of the negotiations.

00:39:17.400 How can we make this work?

00:39:18.900 That's a good guideline for a successful negotiation, not how can I come out of this ahead? 0.98

00:39:25.760 That's such a stupid way of looking at a situation because it's so temporary, right? 0.78

00:39:30.260 If I screw you over while we're talking because I'm better at verbally manipulating you and I think you won't take that out on me opportunity by opportunity as we move forward into the future. 1.00

00:39:42.500 I'm an absolute bloody damn fool. 1.00

00:39:44.180 Exactly, yeah. 1.00

00:39:45.820 You're going to take it out on me.

00:39:46.920 You're going to look for outs.

00:39:47.680 Or even when problems arise, you're just going to keep silent.

00:39:50.900 You're going to be like, ah, you know what?

00:39:52.080 I know people will hurt you by doing nothing.

00:39:56.140 And you don't want that to happen either.

00:39:58.380 The black swan technique that you referred to, tell me about that.

00:40:05.080 Well, it's a collection of the emotional intelligence skills that started with hostage negotiation.

00:40:11.020 There were eight FBI hostage negotiation skills.

00:40:16.680 And I came out thinking like, you know, there's some adaptability here.

00:40:20.860 After I went through the Kennedy School, I was lucky enough.

00:40:25.680 I got into Harvard Law School's negotiation course as a student when I was an FBI agent.

00:40:30.560 And I worked with some brilliant people there.

00:40:32.520 Sheila Heen, Doug Stone, Bob Mnookin, Bob Bordeaux, brilliant people.

00:40:37.260 And I just did my hostage negotiation thing while I was going through the course.

00:40:43.140 And they said to me, you know, you're doing the same thing we are.

00:40:45.840 The stakes are different, but the dynamics are the same.

00:40:49.200 So I thought, all right, so I'll use these.

00:40:51.880 FBI called them active listening skills.

00:40:54.760 Harvard called them active listening skills.

00:40:57.040 We had made them very definable, very practical, very usable.

00:41:01.500 Because when you're teaching skills to cops, if it's not usable and practical and clear, you get booed off the stage fast.

00:41:11.240 They want practical stuff.

00:41:14.000 And when Harvard really gave me the green light, like this stuff works, I started teaching at Georgetown afterwards.

00:41:21.020 My son Brandon was a critical part of the development of those skills.

00:41:24.760 And we just took the eight skills.

00:41:27.120 We got them nine now.

00:41:28.540 We made some slight tweaks in some of the thoughts as we applied them to business and personal life.

00:41:34.140 But it's a collection of emotional intelligence, tactical empathy skills that work because of the way human beings are wired worldwide.

00:41:44.900 Just they work on the limbic system, which is the emotional components, the circuitry, the wiring in the brain that everybody has by virtue of the fact that they're human.

00:41:55.920 And it pretty much operates the same, regardless of gender, ethnicity, religion, geography, diet, because you're human.

00:42:05.500 So, I want to have you walk us through two things.

00:42:11.220 Maybe you can take us through what a hostage negotiation situation might look like and how it is that a desirable outcome can be negotiated under those circumstances.

00:42:23.140 So, I'd like to know that.

00:42:24.380 But you talked about active listening skills.

00:42:27.240 And you mentioned that there were nine components to that.

00:42:30.980 Is it possible to walk through those nine?

00:42:33.440 Sure.

00:42:34.160 Yeah.

00:42:34.400 And I think a better term these days is really proactive.

00:42:40.020 You know, you're anticipating.

00:42:41.500 You're paying really close attention.

00:42:42.860 You're understanding how the person is wired.

00:42:45.240 And you're understanding how, what sort of neurochemical changes take place when you feel understood.

00:42:52.800 I stand up in front of a group of business people on a regular basis.

00:42:57.200 And I'll say to them, how much time do you have for somebody who's not listening to you?

00:43:01.800 And they don't have any time for it.

00:43:05.560 Now, they'll test them a little bit.

00:43:07.680 They'll interact shortly.

00:43:08.820 But somebody who's only pitching or somebody who's only got answers.

00:43:14.180 It doesn't even matter how good those answers are.

00:43:17.800 Because if somebody's not listening, at some point in time, they're going to need an adjustment.

00:43:21.840 And if they're not listening, they're not going to make that adjustment.

00:43:25.600 You know, salesperson, counterpart of any kind.

00:43:29.000 You come up to me with a perfect answer.

00:43:31.800 Maybe you got four perfect answers.

00:43:35.360 You're most interested in giving me your answers as opposed to hearing me out first.

00:43:41.220 I know at some point in time, you're not going to have a perfect answer.

00:43:45.780 And if you haven't been listening, you're not going to catch it.

00:43:48.500 And we're going to have some real problems.

00:43:50.160 So you start showing how you listen intermittently, proactively, then it's really going to accelerate our conversation.

00:44:01.380 And I know that when there's a problem, you're going to catch it instead of me having to come back to you after the problems become very damaging.

00:44:10.460 It's about anticipating and staying ahead of the game.

00:44:14.200 In general terms, that's what it's all about.

00:44:15.600 That's part of establishing a relationship, eh?

00:44:18.120 Yeah.

00:44:18.360 Instead of selling.

00:44:19.400 You know, I went out to sell 20 years ago, probably, out of academia.

00:44:24.940 I was still practicing as a professor.

00:44:27.100 But I also started to sell some products that I had designed.

00:44:32.280 And I had the wrong idea about sales, really, to begin with.

00:44:37.240 I had a solution to a set of problems that I thought were rife in the business world.

00:44:44.580 And I wanted to convince, probably, with evidence, that the solution I had developed was going to work.

00:44:57.720 And it was a hiring solution.

00:44:59.800 But what I didn't understand, it took me a while to understand, was that I was actually introducing a problem into the mix.

00:45:08.260 Because they already had a way of hiring.

00:45:10.600 And so if they were going to switch to me, there was a lot of retooling that needed to be done.

00:45:13.980 And I didn't actually know what their problems were.

00:45:17.880 And so I learned, eventually, that there was no such thing as selling.

00:45:24.720 There was the establishment of a relationship.

00:45:26.960 And also the feeling out.

00:45:28.080 It's like, if you go talk to someone in a given company, it isn't necessarily the case that they're going to want what you're buying.

00:45:33.960 You've got to figure out what their problems are.

00:45:35.700 And one of the things that's really cool about that, too, is that if you're entrepreneurially oriented and you've made a product, and you go out and you try to sell it to 10 people, and they don't buy it.

00:45:46.120 But all 10 of them tell you about a different problem.

00:45:49.080 And all of them have it.

00:45:51.680 You now know what your next product could be, at least in principle.

00:45:55.680 Because you know where the actual marketplace problem is.

00:45:58.380 And I learned after that, that software designers, for example, who have a track record, if they're designing a new piece of software, they do it in collaboration with their customers.

00:46:10.440 They build a bit of it.

00:46:11.680 They go ask them, you know, how do you think about this?

00:46:14.420 Does it solve the problems that you have?

00:46:16.160 And if they say no, they modify it.

00:46:17.840 Like, there's a constant dialogue between the market, let's say, and the producer.

00:46:22.640 You don't build a better mousetrap and have the world beat a path to your door.

00:46:26.780 You do it in collaboration.

00:46:28.240 And if you can get people to tell you their problems, then you can be the person who can work with them for a solution.

00:46:35.120 And then they're going to be pretty damn happy when you show up for a sales call.

00:46:39.660 Right?

00:46:39.900 So, and you talked earlier about iterability, too.

00:46:42.880 You know, that you want to make sure that you've conducted the conversation so that the person would like it if the conversation happened again.

00:46:51.600 And that is the, that's like the definition of a relationship.

00:46:55.600 Like, you have a relationship with someone with whom you would like to continue the conversation indefinitely.

00:47:01.580 And the great salespeople, they're relationship managers, man.

00:47:05.500 That's what they do.

00:47:06.300 And they have their Rolodex full of the people they know.

00:47:08.880 And they listen to them.

00:47:10.080 They don't go sell them junk that doesn't work to rip them off to make a quick buck and vanish. 0.97

00:47:15.240 That's what psychopaths do.

00:47:16.880 And it's not a very good strategy.

00:47:18.540 So, all right.

00:47:20.420 So, you talked about proactive listening.

00:47:22.820 And you give the person an opportunity to lay out what they have to say.

00:47:26.460 What other steps are associated with this nine-step process?

00:47:32.000 Well, it's kind of, it's nine tools as opposed to nine steps.

00:47:37.260 The step, you want to gather information and establish a relationship simultaneously.

00:47:42.600 Now, most people think you do one or the other.

00:47:44.660 Hey, how are your kids?

00:47:47.080 Where'd you go to school?

00:47:50.960 What do your kids do?

00:47:52.860 Are your kids in Little League?

00:47:55.300 The small talk that's people, this common ground thing, which is, it's for C players.

00:48:04.860 Common ground, in my opinion, is, was designed initially like, if we got similar common ground,

00:48:10.340 then ideally you understand where I'm coming from.

00:48:12.840 But in point of fact, it's highly inefficient.

00:48:16.640 Look at your siblings.

00:48:18.820 How much more common ground could you possibly have than with the people you grew up with?

00:48:23.020 Talk about common ground in geography, ethnicity, diet, religion, as much as possible.

00:48:28.360 And how many family gatherings around holidays or screaming matches?

00:48:33.420 That's what common ground will get you.

00:48:35.740 But what people really want to know is, do you understand what my problems are?

00:48:39.280 Do you understand my perspective?

00:48:40.720 Do you understand where I'm coming from?

00:48:42.580 So if I dial in to start out understanding and feel you out,

00:48:47.660 and I'm going to say, seems like this whole process has frustrated you.

00:48:51.740 Seems like there's a reason that you're struggling with this.

00:48:55.360 You know, I'm actually, I'm taking emotionally intelligent, educated guesses,

00:49:01.040 and I'm listening.

00:49:04.000 Now that gets me into an information gathering process and relationship building process

00:49:09.900 simultaneously, instead of one and then the other, which is highly inefficient,

00:49:16.780 which is why this ends up being a much, this indirect route ends up being much faster.

00:49:21.460 I'll look at you and I'll say, look, look, it seems like you're having a good day.

00:49:25.980 If you look like you're having a good day, I don't, I don't, I don't ask people how they are.

00:49:32.020 I make a guess as to how they are based on what I'm seeing, because that tells them right away,

00:49:38.380 I'm dialing into you.

00:49:40.220 I'm seeing you as you are.

00:49:42.360 I'm not trying to make you something you're not.

00:49:45.200 That gives me an advantage right off the bat.

00:49:48.860 I get help in airports and in places where people are constantly interacting with people

00:49:55.540 and customer service faster than anybody else does.

00:49:59.240 Because if I see the lady behind the counter at LAX, 1.00

00:50:02.900 who's clearly worn out and distressed by the last five people that were demanding,

00:50:08.340 and I walk up and I go like, seems like it's been a tough day.

00:50:13.600 She's helping me right off the bat.

00:50:15.460 I don't walk up and say, how are you today?

00:50:17.380 As if I'm trying to make her happy.

00:50:20.500 I'm, I'm, I'm letting her know that I see her as a human being.

00:50:23.540 And I'm, I'm started off much faster with far less friction by paying,

00:50:28.220 actually paying attention to people with this proactive listening set of skills.

00:50:33.280 Right, right, so you're putting yourself in her position, really,

00:50:37.380 and by using nonverbal cues and so forth to,

00:50:40.540 to occupy the same conceptual space that she has, right?

00:50:44.860 Well, and I was thinking too, while you were saying that, you know,

00:50:47.200 that you're also approaching, because if you're selling something,

00:50:52.240 you might think that your goal is to sell, like the product, right?

00:50:57.220 But you see, the thing is too, you don't know if that's your goal,

00:51:00.880 because you might not want to establish a short, medium,

00:51:05.900 or long-term relationship with the person that you're talking to.

00:51:09.120 You might really want to, but you might not to.

00:51:11.740 You might not be the right vendor for them.

00:51:14.220 You might not be offering a solution to a problem they have. 1.00

00:51:16.980 They might be a psychopathic son of a bitch. 1.00

00:51:19.260 That's unlikely, but it's possible. 1.00

00:51:21.100 It's possible.

00:51:21.340 You know, like it could be a real problem.

00:51:23.060 Well, and also, especially if you're dealing with big companies,

00:51:26.220 you know, if you enter into a sales agreement with a company,

00:51:31.580 so you've hit a home run from the monetary perspective,

00:51:34.400 you can easily end up as the employee of someone you don't want to work for, right?

00:51:38.940 So you have to be very careful.

00:51:40.300 And so one of the things, I try to do this with my podcast,

00:51:43.920 like we haven't talked before,

00:51:45.320 and I want to get myself in the headspace before the podcast,

00:51:49.960 like, well, who is this person?

00:51:51.100 Like, what is it that they're up to, you know?

00:51:53.400 And why have they had the course of success that they've had?

00:51:56.380 It's the encounter in some ways is open-ended.

00:51:59.680 It's like, I'm here because I think something might arise out of this that's positive,

00:52:03.860 but I'm not exactly sure what it might be.

00:52:06.600 And so I need to know what they want, for sure, maybe more than anything else.

00:52:10.520 And then I want to see if there's something here for both of us

00:52:13.160 that we couldn't accomplish on our own.

00:52:14.980 And then that, it also stops you from using the club, say,

00:52:20.860 if you're a sales, if you're selling or if you're negotiating.

00:52:24.060 And that's a very ineffective way of moving forward anyways.

00:52:26.600 People hate that fundamentally, and they get resentful and bitter about it.

00:52:30.620 And so, okay, so you try to put yourself in another person's position,

00:52:34.600 and that's not a technique.

00:52:35.820 Again, you're doing that by actually paying attention.

00:52:38.420 And there's a bit of an open-endedness about what it is that you're aiming at

00:52:43.280 and how you're going to go about it.

00:52:44.540 So you have the proactive listening element.

00:52:46.860 You have the close attention.

00:52:48.900 You're not too concerned with that sort of formulaic small talk

00:52:52.320 that might establish a false consensus or similarity

00:52:55.620 and that can easily become manipulative.

00:52:57.880 Okay, so what else? What else?

00:52:59.920 Yeah, well, then I'm going to tease out, you know,

00:53:01.720 never be so sure of what you want that you wouldn't take something better,

00:53:04.300 which is a little bit of the point you were making a moment ago.

00:53:06.500 Yeah, right.

00:53:07.120 What do you really want from the person?

00:53:08.740 What are they like?

00:53:10.180 A friend of mine, Joe Polish, has a phrase,

00:53:12.720 don't deal with people who are half. 1.00

00:53:14.280 And Joe says half is hard, annoying, lame, and frustrating. 0.97

00:53:17.080 They suck the life out of you. 0.95

00:53:18.700 And they're very inefficient, and they make your life miserable. 0.92

00:53:22.100 So I'm going to want to try to find out what kind of person you are,

00:53:25.980 how good of a match we are, how our core values line up,

00:53:28.780 because I want a long collaboration that's prosperous for both of us.

00:53:33.200 Now, you might not want that,

00:53:35.740 and you're entitled to not wanting that.

00:53:38.520 But then I'm entitled to move on because I want to find somebody that wants that.

00:53:44.840 Well, and you also definitely want to figure that out.

00:53:48.800 Because if that's your goal,

00:53:49.940 because that is the establishment of a productive, generous, collaborative,

00:53:54.260 goal-oriented relationship that's mutually desirable.

00:53:59.260 And you want to let the other person reveal themselves,

00:54:03.140 because you don't want to delude yourself,

00:54:05.200 even as a consequence of your own verbal ability.

00:54:07.580 You don't want to delude yourself into thinking you've established

00:54:11.040 the kind of relationship you wanted and find out that you were wrong.

00:54:14.680 That's another reason to listen.

00:54:16.200 It's like, you want to be sure you got the picture.

00:54:20.120 Yeah.

00:54:20.520 So you know what sort of thing you're stepping into.

00:54:23.760 Right, right.

00:54:24.460 And I know it's going to sound very harsh,

00:54:27.460 but when I was teaching at USC,

00:54:30.160 I had a female come up to me in a class, 1.00

00:54:32.100 and she's like, you know,

00:54:33.380 there are a lot of employers out there that want to pay me less because I'm a female. 1.00

00:54:36.940 If I got an employer that's paying me less because I'm a female, 1.00

00:54:39.580 how do I negotiate a better deal?

00:54:42.020 And I said, all right, so I'm going to answer you as if I was your dad,

00:54:45.440 and you just asked me,

00:54:46.780 hey, the guy I'm in a relationship with treats me badly.

00:54:49.460 How do I get him to treat me better?

00:54:50.840 My answer to you is go someplace else.

00:54:53.420 There are plenty of places you want to be somewhere where they value you.

00:54:58.100 And if their core value is to pay you less based on your agenda,

00:55:02.940 they're going bankrupt anyway.

00:55:05.100 That's a bad strategy.

00:55:06.940 They're going, and you don't want to go down the tubes with them.

00:55:09.860 So you want to be someplace where somebody values your work.

00:55:14.460 Don't try to fix a bad employer any more than you try to fix a bad significant other.

00:55:20.220 There's somebody out there better for you,

00:55:22.420 and you're far happier and far more productive

00:55:24.980 and have a far better life by moving on.

00:55:27.840 So if the person, whether you're in sales or whether it's your employer,

00:55:32.520 if their core values don't line up with yours,

00:55:35.760 they're entitled to their core values,

00:55:38.120 move on and line up with a team that's going to move you farther ahead in your life

00:55:42.920 than anybody else that doesn't line up with you ever would.

00:55:46.940 You said that you shouldn't try to fix a bad employer.

00:55:49.820 You know, and the managerial literature indicates very clearly, too,

00:55:53.200 that you shouldn't try to fix a bad employee.

00:55:55.880 So I'd like your thoughts on this.

00:55:57.960 But, well, absolutely.

00:55:59.260 Well, so first of all, it's not easy to fix someone.

00:56:02.980 It takes a long time.

00:56:05.060 It's a dubious enterprise.

00:56:06.980 And they need to be bloody well fully on board with that

00:56:10.640 and willing to make the appropriate changes.

00:56:12.600 And the probability that you're going to have an errant employee

00:56:16.500 with a history of bad behavior

00:56:18.520 and that you as a manager, say, with 20 people to attend to,

00:56:23.080 are going to make substantive changes in that person's basic psychological makeup,

00:56:28.500 while the evidence suggests very strongly that you're just not going to.

00:56:31.680 And all the literature I read that was at the crossover between the clinical and the managerial

00:56:38.420 suggested that you spend all your time as a productive manager with your best people.

00:56:44.160 And what that also implies is those are the people that you hire.

00:56:47.980 You know, and with regards to firing people, which is also a kind of negotiation,

00:56:52.800 you know, I had this friend who's one rough guy,

00:56:56.000 and companies used to hire him to fire people.

00:56:58.600 And I didn't like firing people, and I still don't.

00:57:02.340 And I asked him how he tolerated the emotional stress that came along with that.

00:57:09.020 And he said that he liked doing it.

00:57:11.860 And I said, what do you mean you like doing it?

00:57:14.500 Because I was just like outside of my wheelhouse.

00:57:16.840 But I knew this guy, and I respected him.

00:57:19.200 And he said, look, I go into companies,

00:57:21.340 and I find the people who kiss up and punch down.

00:57:26.300 I find the people who take all the credit.

00:57:29.380 I find the people who don't distribute any of the benefits.

00:57:32.840 I find the manipulators.

00:57:34.740 I find the people who are lying about their motivation,

00:57:37.180 or even who are just in the wrong place doing something they shouldn't be doing.

00:57:41.680 And I let them know that I see what they're doing,

00:57:44.760 and I'm pretty damn happy when they leave.

00:57:47.400 And I thought, hey, man, fair enough, you know.

00:57:51.440 And the negotiation there, like if you do have an employee that isn't performing well,

00:57:56.600 part of the negotiation there is to say something like, look,

00:58:00.520 it should be evident to both of us that there's something that isn't right about what's happening here.

00:58:07.020 And we could drag this out painfully, kicking and screaming, bitter and resentful for the next 15 years.

00:58:13.540 Or we could just, like, cut our losses, and maybe you could go find something that would suit you.

00:58:20.200 And, you know, I've seen this in my clinical practice,

00:58:22.860 because I had lots of people who came to me in the aftermath of being fired.

00:58:26.240 And, of course, that was often, almost always, to some degree devastating.

00:58:33.320 But it wasn't that uncommon for people six months later,

00:58:36.960 especially if they actually did try to put themselves back together,

00:58:40.380 to be immensely relieved that they no longer had that particular noose around their neck.

00:58:46.700 Yeah, there's so many reasons why the severing of a bad relationship is better for both parties.

00:58:54.000 And who has to do the severing is often the hard part.

00:58:57.420 I was involved in trying to let somebody at a charitable organization go a number of years ago,

00:59:03.620 affiliated with a church.

00:59:04.780 And I'm going to the minister of the church for guidance.

00:59:08.580 And I'm expecting him to say to me, because this was a great man.

00:59:12.740 The man's name was Arthur Caliandro, minister of Marble Collegiate Church, New York City.

00:59:17.140 Phenomenal human being.

00:59:18.020 One of the best guys I've ever known.

00:59:20.400 And I thought Arthur was going to counsel me on, you know, guidance and, you know, all the stuff I expected.

00:59:28.600 And he looked at me and he said,

00:59:29.780 there's no gentle way to cut somebody's head off. 0.78

00:59:32.420 And I thought, wow.

00:59:35.580 You know, and for Arthur to tell me that was the reality of business relationships, personal relationships.

00:59:44.840 Like if it's bad for you, it's bad for them too.

00:59:47.320 And they're going to be better off.

00:59:48.600 If they're half for you, if they're hard, annoying, lame, and frustrating, you are for them too.

00:59:54.140 So you're not doing anybody a favor by hanging on to a bad relationship.

00:59:59.060 It's hard to sever it.

01:00:01.300 And in many cases, the jolt that comes from it leaves both sides much better off.

01:00:08.900 Yeah, well, I know a phrase like that too.

01:00:11.780 I don't know if this was something specific to Northern Alberta.

01:00:14.740 But if you have to cut the tail off a cat, you don't do it an inch at a time.

01:00:24.520 Yeah, well said.

01:00:26.800 Yeah, that's rough.

01:00:27.880 But it makes sense.

01:00:29.140 All right.

01:00:29.440 So we wandered a fair ways through the nine tools that you associated with proactive listening.

01:00:37.060 Is there more to flesh out there?

01:00:38.420 Well, they're mostly, the different skills label is a verbal observation.

01:00:46.220 It sounds like there's something on your mind.

01:00:48.700 It sounds like what I just said is causing you hesitation.

01:00:52.180 There's something we refer to as a mirror that's just repeating one to three-ish words of what somebody just said.

01:00:57.320 It's not the body language mirror.

01:00:59.260 It actually really opens up people's thinking.

01:01:02.540 Paraphrasing, you're kind of putting yourself in a position to come up with a great summary for the other side.

01:01:06.940 And summarize their perspective.

01:01:09.240 If you can summarize the other side's perspective, the two of you are on the same sheet of music.

01:01:15.720 There's calibrated questions, what and how questions that are designed to cause somebody to think about somebody.

01:01:23.100 I might say, in order of, instead of me saying to you, like, look, you got to take action because the status quo is killing you.

01:01:31.440 Instead of, if I want to put that thought in your head, I'm going to say, what happens if you do nothing?

01:01:36.940 How are you better off by failing to address this problem?

01:01:43.220 You know, those are two different questions designed to uncover the same thing, which is pointing out to you the comfort of inaction.

01:01:53.480 I think Kennedy made some statement about that.

01:01:57.060 The long-range consequences of comfortable inaction far outweigh addressing the problem.

01:02:03.860 That's an absolutely crucial point.

01:02:06.000 I mean, one of the things that, and this is an impediment to negotiation in marital relationships constantly.

01:02:12.100 And it's an absolute killer.

01:02:14.160 You know, like, I don't like conflict.

01:02:16.400 But I learned something a long time ago.

01:02:19.000 And I learned that conflict delayed was conflict continued and multiplied.

01:02:24.320 And so, if I have an issue with my wife, I would rather... 0.94

01:02:31.400 You know, I read a paper yesterday.

01:02:33.020 I really like this paper.

01:02:34.120 It was really smart.

01:02:35.660 They were doing fMRI scanning, looking at activation of pain systems in relationship to other people's pain.

01:02:43.880 And there's quite a variability in that.

01:02:46.400 So, people high in trade agreeableness who are easy to get along with and who are sympathetic and empathetic, but who can be easily taken advantage of, by the way.

01:02:56.220 That's one end of the distribution.

01:02:57.720 The other end is disagreeable people who can be callous and hurtful, blunt.

01:03:03.180 Now, slightly somewhat disagreeable managers, by the way, are more successful.

01:03:08.300 And many people who seek therapy are agreeable people who are being taken advantage of.

01:03:13.880 So, the fact that you're empathetic and sympathetic is not a virtue without its vices or dangers.

01:03:20.520 The brain research revealed that the more empathic people had a larger degree of pain activation in the pain systems when they saw the pain of other people.

01:03:33.460 Okay, so now, if you don't like conflict, part of the reason you don't like conflict is because if you see the person you're having conflict with in pain, you're going to mirror that pain.

01:03:45.140 So, that's uncomfortable.

01:03:46.360 And I'm an agreeable person.

01:03:47.760 So, if I see someone in pain, it strikes me to the core.

01:03:50.760 But I learned that if I deferred conflict, then it's like the cat with its tail being cut off an inch at a time.

01:04:00.260 It's like we don't have the blowout, and so we're minimizing the pain in the present, but we're radically prolonging it across our iterated interactions.

01:04:10.240 And so, it's much better just to call a spade a spade and to say, look, I see the elephant under the rug.

01:04:18.140 I see the snake's tail, you know, poking out from the cabinet.

01:04:22.620 We're going to sort this out right here and now, and we're going to straighten it out, and that's going to be delving into the depths, and there's going to be discomfort in that.

01:04:31.540 But if we can identify the problem and negotiate a compelling mutual solution, we don't have to have this problem anymore.

01:04:41.260 And, man, it's such a, you know, I saw couples all the time who had the same bloody fight every day for 30 years, you know.

01:04:51.520 It's just, that's hell.

01:04:53.760 And it's much better just to have, like, the discussion, even though that's that inaction, you know, that you pointed to, that you described Kennedy as pointing to.

01:05:03.240 It's the, classically speaking, even theologically, there is much more stress placed on sins of commission, right?

01:05:13.080 Things you do that are clearly wrong, but avoiding doing something right.

01:05:18.100 That does people in, man, especially if they do that repeatedly, and they do it because they don't want to cause trouble, because they want to avoid conflict.

01:05:25.880 It's like, there's no avoiding necessary conflict.

01:05:29.020 It's a downward spiral.

01:05:31.040 Yeah.

01:05:31.280 Yeah, it ends up, you end up having your discussion in divorce court, right, for $200 an hour, right, while your bank accounts are drained.

01:05:39.520 Making the lawyers rich, yeah.

01:05:41.460 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:05:41.800 Lawyers buying a new car, we're keeping the argument going. 0.97

01:05:45.260 Yeah, now, you said when you were trying to circumvent the proclivity for inaction, you'd ask questions like,

01:05:52.340 this is something I used to do when I was talking to people about, say, negotiating for a raise if they were resentful about their current situation, something like that.

01:06:00.520 One of the things we would do is say, okay, think about how you feel about the situation you're in right now.

01:06:07.100 Okay, now imagine yourself 10 years older.

01:06:10.740 You're in the same position, okay, except you're 10 years older.

01:06:15.980 You're 10 years older, yeah.

01:06:17.820 You bet, man.

01:06:18.980 You've put yourself through an awful lot of misery for 10 years.

01:06:24.240 You're weaker because you've backed off, right?

01:06:26.900 You're more bitter. 0.97

01:06:27.680 You're more hopeless.

01:06:28.620 You're suffering from more pain.

01:06:30.360 Like, think about that.

01:06:32.120 Like, empathize with that future person and tell me what you do in the present to avoid that fate.

01:06:39.780 People would think, oh, my God, you know, that's the last thing I want.

01:06:42.840 Because everyone thinks, well, I'll deal with it tomorrow.

01:06:45.420 But you can say, well, yeah, you haven't dealt with it for the last five years.

01:06:49.680 And how's that going for you?

01:06:51.600 Like, would it have been better if you would have dealt with it five years ago?

01:06:54.940 And now, you know, stretch that out 10 years into the future.

01:06:58.700 See, because that's so, it is such an interesting thing to do.

01:07:01.460 Because the person has this impediment of the conflict in front of them that's causing them to be afraid.

01:07:08.880 And what you do is you swing that behind them.

01:07:11.060 It's like getting the devil behind them.

01:07:12.900 Get the behind me, Satan, I think is the right word.

01:07:15.620 It's like, this is the thing you're afraid of.

01:07:18.600 But you should have a different fear pushing you forward that's way more profound.

01:07:22.440 And that would be the fear of the consequences of inaction, right?

01:07:26.480 And how do you get people, when you're doing that, how, you said you ask them open-ended questions.

01:07:32.640 Is that how you get them to explore and realize the costs of inaction?

01:07:37.460 Yeah, the first one is the what and how questions.

01:07:41.180 I can trigger you into really a very sort of narrow, confined mental state without you feeling it's narrow or confined.

01:07:48.740 I can put you right there with a what question or how question.

01:07:53.800 You know, one of my favorite ones these days is if somebody, whatever they're doing for a living,

01:08:00.360 and if I ask them what they do for a living, they're going to give me pretty much of a canned response.

01:08:04.900 I help people do this, or I help people do that.

01:08:09.220 Or they're going to give me a memorized response.

01:08:12.120 It's not a conversation.

01:08:13.060 First time I did this, I'm at a Hollywood party a couple of years ago, fundraiser for Forrest Whitaker, I believe.

01:08:22.780 And I'm talking to one of the self-involved people there.

01:08:28.780 Forrest's a great human being, by the way, phenomenal human being.

01:08:32.980 But I'm talking to this self-involved guy, and I don't want to hear his self-involved conversation.

01:08:37.000 So instead of asking him what does he do for a living, I go, what do you love about what you do for a living?

01:08:42.380 Now, what I've done with that what question is I have put him right square in to a part of his brain focused on love.

01:08:50.800 And he transformed in front of my eyes.

01:08:54.120 And I saw him light up.

01:08:56.700 So, you know, I took the what question, and I put him right there.

01:09:01.800 And he lit up, and he started talking to me about all the things that made him come alive as a human being.

01:09:09.700 And it ended up being a really satisfying question.

01:09:12.480 Now, it's one of my stock questions in nearly any interaction, because I want to find out about what you're about.

01:09:19.140 What are you into?

01:09:20.260 It's going to give me my core, your core values almost right off the bat in a very quick way.

01:09:26.720 Every now and then.

01:09:27.080 Can you ask what people are afraid of the same way, or do you focus on the positive?

01:09:32.700 Now, you're bringing in the secondary point, which I know you know.

01:09:38.020 Many psychologists, many human nature practitioners believe that everything we do is motivated by either love or fear.

01:09:45.140 So, I will also ask, in a business context, when I'm trying to find out what the motivations are, I'll say, what are you afraid of happening here?

01:09:55.900 Because then, now, I've got them into a different headspace.

01:10:00.120 And I know that fear is a very substantial, significant, motivating factor in people's lives.

01:10:08.040 I'm not going to wield it like a weapon.

01:10:10.660 I'm going to want to become aware of it with you in a collaborative way.

01:10:14.080 And I will ask a question that's very similar to that in business conversations, when we're talking about whether or not we're going to collaborate.

01:10:23.200 Because I need to know, the fears are going to drive you.

01:10:26.540 The love is going to drive you, but fear has a tendency to overcome fear of loss, you know, a limited number of fears.

01:10:33.760 They'll overcome the love if you're not careful.

01:10:36.140 So, I want to know what the fears are, so I can map out better how I can help you.

01:10:40.760 Well, I would say, you know, if you're having a conversation with your wife and it starts to get choppy, this probably occurs in any conversation.

01:10:52.000 I suppose the way you would construe that from a psychoanalytic point of view is that you're starting to encounter resistances.

01:11:01.240 The person doesn't want to move in that direction.

01:11:03.620 Maybe that's even a direction that you jointly had negotiated would be desirable, at least in principle.

01:11:09.740 But then you do want to find out, okay, what are the obstacles?

01:11:14.620 What are the fears?

01:11:15.480 Because the fears will become obstacles.

01:11:18.680 And if they're not cleared out, there'll be invisible barriers to progress, right?

01:11:23.040 And it's so interesting, you know, when you get people to lay out what they're afraid of and then what they perceive as obstacles,

01:11:30.000 sometimes merely letting them describe what it is that they're afraid of will make the fear evaporate

01:11:36.200 because they realize that that's a fear that applied in a different situation or that, you know, that they've actually grown out of without really noticing

01:11:44.060 or that you've already established a pattern of behavior that indicates that they don't have to be afraid of that from you.

01:11:52.660 And, you know, sometimes you can have a dialogue about that and clear away the obstacles,

01:11:58.000 but often listening is sufficient to clear those away by itself.

01:12:04.660 Well, you know, these proactive listening skills that you have been discussing, many of them have their roots in Carl Rogers' work, you know?

01:12:16.840 Ah, yes, of course, yeah.

01:12:18.640 Much of it does.

01:12:19.300 Absolutely, well, absolutely, absolutely.

01:12:21.880 He was really quite brilliant at detailing out the preconditions for a conversation, you know?

01:12:26.340 And that other point you made about mirroring and summarizing, that's really, that's one of the only things I've ever really discovered that actually works in some ways as a technique.

01:12:40.360 Now, it still has to be honest, but there is almost nothing more useful in a conversation than keeping track of what it is that the person is saying

01:12:49.760 and then at the right moment saying, here's what I think you just said, you know, compressing it,

01:12:57.940 because that's also a favor to you, because you could remember it then, but also to them, right?

01:13:02.740 To compact it in a more elegant casing, let's say.

01:13:08.740 And it's such a relief to the person.

01:13:11.520 It's a mark of respect, because it shows that you've been paying attention.

01:13:14.640 And it's such a relief to the person, because they now know that you have decided that their concerns are sufficiently worth attending to,

01:13:24.360 that you actually did, in fact, pay attention.

01:13:27.400 Right, exactly.

01:13:29.860 So when you're negotiating with a hostage, in a hostage situation, because that's a high-stakes situation,

01:13:37.860 what have you found has had the most effective consequence?

01:13:42.920 Is it listening?

01:13:44.440 Like, what do you do in a situation like that, that would be different, perhaps, or the same, for that matter,

01:13:51.500 that you would do in a business negotiation or marital negotiation?

01:13:56.980 Yeah, well, to some degree, every interaction that somebody's frustrated with,

01:14:01.040 where they've chosen an action that's adverse,

01:14:04.560 to some degree, there's an element of driving them of not being heard.

01:14:08.580 I'm going to deactivate the adversarial responses, to some degree, either a little or a lot,

01:14:19.560 just by making them feel heard.

01:14:22.300 And whatever I don't deactivate is going to get us down to the real issues.

01:14:27.280 It's going to separate the wheat from the chaff, if you will.

01:14:29.880 So I'm going to start listening right off the bat,

01:14:32.920 and I'm also going to start listening for, you know, what's a deep-seated problem here.

01:14:38.180 And as you said before, you know, identifying the elephant in the room often makes,

01:14:43.900 if it doesn't make the elephant disappear, it makes it diminish far much more.

01:14:48.200 And then the negativity that we talked about, and you mentioned the fMRI scans,

01:14:54.740 it's been shown consistently in a number of fMRI studies,

01:14:59.500 that simply describing negativity diminished it every time.

01:15:04.820 Now, the degree it diminishes, it changes.

01:15:08.220 But it diminishes describing it, labeling it, calling it out, not denying it,

01:15:12.900 not explaining it, just describing it, always moves you closer to the deal.

01:15:18.340 Always.

01:15:19.500 Now, how much it moves you...

01:15:20.740 Well, partly it's because, you know, partly what happens is that,

01:15:24.300 imagine you're being chased by something.

01:15:27.920 One of the reasons you're afraid of it is because you observe yourself running.

01:15:32.380 Now, imagine you turn around and face it.

01:15:35.260 You've instantly signaled to yourself that you have faith in the part of you

01:15:39.000 that's looking at the problem.

01:15:40.160 And that will immediately produce positive emotion and diminish negative emotion.

01:15:45.900 It's unbelievably reliable.

01:15:47.600 And the psychophysiological transformation is systemic.

01:15:51.820 Like, it's being mapped from the...

01:15:53.540 Literally, from the level of DNA upward.

01:15:56.500 So, there's a complete...

01:15:58.200 It's like you're inhabited by a different spirit

01:16:00.420 when you're running from something that's chasing you

01:16:02.540 and when you turn around to confront it.

01:16:04.300 And so, if you do that collaboratively,

01:16:06.060 you also indicate to the person...

01:16:08.840 Let's say if you're...

01:16:10.040 The person is terrified.

01:16:11.860 They're the hostage taker,

01:16:13.020 but they're still terrified at the situation they've got themselves into.

01:16:16.600 If they see that you're brave enough to face the reality of the situation,

01:16:20.480 they're going to trust you a hell of a lot more than they would otherwise.

01:16:23.280 And so, you do indicate that by listening.

01:16:25.200 So, what kind of situations have you been in on the hostage front that...

01:16:32.100 Tell me a story, if you would,

01:16:33.740 about one of the situations that you've been in

01:16:35.860 where you were able to put what you know into practice

01:16:39.640 and how did that turn out?

01:16:41.900 Yeah, well, I was...

01:16:43.020 Very early in my career,

01:16:44.240 I was lucky enough to be involved in a bank robbery with hostages,

01:16:48.980 which, while that happens in the movies all the time,

01:16:51.500 in the real world,

01:16:52.700 it's a very rare event.

01:16:54.400 Usually, the bank robbers are long gone

01:16:56.120 before the police show up

01:16:57.100 and there's almost never a situation

01:16:59.760 where there's a negotiation of bank with hostages.

01:17:03.180 It happened in New York City early in my career

01:17:05.560 and it had been 20 years

01:17:07.780 since one had happened in New York City prior to that.

01:17:10.660 That's how rare they are.

01:17:13.000 And there were two bank robbers inside.

01:17:15.540 One guy was a highly manipulative person

01:17:17.760 who figured all along that he could outwit everybody

01:17:21.900 and he actually demonstrated a lot of techniques

01:17:25.540 that I would refer to as a great CEO negotiator.

01:17:29.740 He was constantly diminishing his influence on the inside.

01:17:33.700 We got on the phone with him early on.

01:17:35.500 He was like,

01:17:35.860 these guys I'm in here with,

01:17:37.240 they're more dangerous than I am.

01:17:38.600 As a matter of fact, I'm afraid of them.

01:17:40.800 It's like a CEO saying like,

01:17:42.260 look, I can't make this deal

01:17:43.520 because my board's going to fire me.

01:17:45.940 You know, I don't know.

01:17:46.820 I don't have any influence in my company.

01:17:48.860 I'm a figurehead.

01:17:49.600 That's an important guy.

01:17:51.500 The guy who's diminishing their influence

01:17:54.680 has a lot of it and doesn't want to get cornered.

01:17:57.700 And that's exactly what this bank robber was about.

01:18:01.160 Now, I gently confronted him.

01:18:04.740 I was the second negotiator on the phone

01:18:06.800 and I was coached into some gentle confrontation

01:18:10.620 by the NYPD Lieutenant Hugh McGowan, brilliant guy.

01:18:15.100 He said, I want you to do this, this, and this.

01:18:18.560 And I want you to confront this guy on his name,

01:18:21.040 first chance you get,

01:18:22.220 because this guy wouldn't even give us his name.

01:18:24.280 What happens when you give up your name?

01:18:27.020 When you give someone your name,

01:18:28.900 you agree to influence.

01:18:31.620 And if you refuse to give your name voluntarily,

01:18:36.040 then you're holding a barrier up.

01:18:38.520 And this guy had refused to give us his,

01:18:41.240 even his first name, all along.

01:18:43.840 And about five hours in,

01:18:45.680 when I was called in to be the next negotiator on the phone,

01:18:49.240 we'd figured out who he was.

01:18:51.440 And Hugh said, you know,

01:18:52.900 I want you to brace him with his name.

01:18:55.300 You know, not, not,

01:18:57.060 uh,

01:18:57.920 uh,

01:18:58.240 accusingly,

01:18:58.900 but let him know that we know who he is

01:19:01.820 and see what happens.

01:19:04.340 Triggered a bunch of changes.

01:19:06.220 He immediately first,

01:19:08.820 when it got a hostage,

01:19:09.940 you put her on the phone to show us that

01:19:11.780 he still had live hostages inside

01:19:13.800 without making a threat.

01:19:15.600 I'm talking to him

01:19:16.600 and suddenly this female comes on the phone. 1.00

01:19:18.400 She says, I'm okay.

01:19:20.140 And I'm completely caught off guard.

01:19:23.020 And he takes the phone back away from her.

01:19:25.200 And it was his way of reminding us

01:19:26.760 he had hostages without making a threat

01:19:30.000 because he was smart enough that he knew

01:19:31.960 that if,

01:19:32.460 if he tempted fate too much,

01:19:34.540 there's a pretty good chance

01:19:35.660 that a sniper would take him out.

01:19:37.000 And he didn't want that.

01:19:37.740 He wanted to figure his way out.

01:19:40.360 I gently confronted him

01:19:42.180 on a couple of other things.

01:19:43.460 It was definite confrontation,

01:19:44.620 but it was gentle.

01:19:46.420 He hands off the phone

01:19:47.940 to the other bank robber

01:19:49.420 who does not want to be there.

01:19:52.880 This guy is more concerned

01:19:54.360 with surviving than getting away.

01:19:56.760 And I dial into him very quickly

01:19:59.040 and just with what I often refer to

01:20:01.560 as the late night FM DJ voice.

01:20:06.720 About 90 seconds into my conversation

01:20:09.880 with this guy,

01:20:10.640 he says, I trust you.

01:20:13.360 And two hours later,

01:20:14.400 he was surrendering to me

01:20:15.560 outside of the bank.

01:20:18.340 What happened to the other guy

01:20:20.120 who was more manipulative

01:20:21.560 and smarter

01:20:22.360 and more in control?

01:20:23.760 Well, he never,

01:20:27.140 right up to the last minute,

01:20:28.720 about 12 hours into the scenario,

01:20:30.760 he got talked out.

01:20:32.580 Now, the second bank robber

01:20:34.980 comes out,

01:20:36.700 explains everything to us

01:20:37.920 about what's going on.

01:20:38.980 There aren't seven people inside.

01:20:41.180 There aren't seven bank robbers

01:20:42.500 from different countries.

01:20:44.300 There's one guy left,

01:20:45.800 and yeah,

01:20:46.520 even though he still won't admit

01:20:47.960 what his name is,

01:20:48.880 that is the name that you have.

01:20:50.480 So we get back on the phone with him,

01:20:53.780 and now I'm out of the game

01:20:55.660 because I'm debriefing the guy

01:20:56.860 who surrendered to me.

01:20:58.620 Next negotiator up

01:20:59.800 is a hostage negotiator

01:21:01.600 named Dominic Massino,

01:21:03.900 NYPD negotiator

01:21:05.260 that to this day,

01:21:06.980 Dominic has since deceased.

01:21:09.160 But Dominic was one of the world's

01:21:11.620 great closers.

01:21:12.660 Dominic was a closer,

01:21:13.740 and he just gently,

01:21:17.060 narrowly kept taking ground away

01:21:19.680 from the other guy

01:21:20.700 that was inside.

01:21:21.920 And his first conversation with him

01:21:23.640 was gentle confrontation.

01:21:25.900 He said,

01:21:26.240 all right,

01:21:26.480 so we've got your partner out here.

01:21:28.820 We know who you are.

01:21:31.100 We know what's going on.

01:21:34.020 What do you want me to call you?

01:21:37.200 And even being told

01:21:38.420 that we had his name,

01:21:39.440 this guy comes back,

01:21:40.340 he says,

01:21:40.760 call me Billy,

01:21:41.480 which is not his name.

01:21:42.400 Dominic is smart enough

01:21:44.800 to go like,

01:21:45.300 I'm not going to get into a fight

01:21:46.540 with this guy over his name.

01:21:47.660 He's like,

01:21:48.000 you want me to call you Billy?

01:21:50.140 Okay,

01:21:51.100 I'll call you Billy.

01:21:53.280 Dominic continued to talk to him.

01:21:55.840 We start working on this guy

01:21:57.580 to come out.

01:21:58.860 So what does he do

01:21:59.920 to continue to maintain control inside

01:22:02.260 and buy himself time?

01:22:04.480 He lets a hostage go.

01:22:05.860 He's got three of them inside.

01:22:07.800 He's got hostages.

01:22:10.260 You know,

01:22:10.500 he's got spares.

01:22:11.400 And he knows

01:22:12.780 that if he lets a hostage go,

01:22:14.220 the chances of us

01:22:15.120 assaulting the building

01:22:16.440 now diminish radically

01:22:17.900 and buy him more time.

01:22:20.000 So he lets one go.

01:22:22.720 And finally,

01:22:23.700 he lets another one go.

01:22:25.760 And the irony

01:22:27.140 of this guy's nature

01:22:28.460 in not collaborating with us,

01:22:30.720 no matter what,

01:22:32.100 was when it came down

01:22:33.220 at the end

01:22:33.800 while we're pressuring him

01:22:35.860 to let the third hostage go,

01:22:37.900 he agrees to come out

01:22:39.020 just to spite us.

01:22:39.920 And these type of situations,

01:22:47.020 a human being trapped

01:22:48.360 into a foreign environment,

01:22:50.520 which is not their home,

01:22:52.120 we call it unprepared,

01:22:54.140 unprepared for.

01:22:57.020 He's not prepared

01:22:57.900 for a long siege

01:22:58.700 in a bank

01:22:59.160 that he's walked into

01:23:00.020 first thing in the morning.

01:23:01.580 He's not going to be able

01:23:02.500 to get a good night's sleep.

01:23:03.620 He's going to start

01:23:04.260 running out of gas

01:23:05.140 at about 12 hours in.

01:23:06.340 It's just the nature

01:23:07.680 of human beings.

01:23:09.340 And almost exactly

01:23:10.340 12 hours into the siege,

01:23:12.340 he agrees to come out

01:23:13.680 and he is looking around.

01:23:17.640 I can see the images

01:23:19.260 in my head

01:23:19.920 right up to the moment

01:23:20.700 that we put handcuffs on him.

01:23:22.360 He was still looking

01:23:23.100 for a way out.

01:23:23.840 And interestingly enough,

01:23:25.620 while he was inside,

01:23:28.100 the part of the bank

01:23:29.080 was under construction.

01:23:30.120 So what he did was

01:23:30.880 he took a lot

01:23:31.460 of the bank money

01:23:32.240 and he set it on fire

01:23:33.720 in the middle of the floor

01:23:34.800 and then he hid

01:23:36.500 a lot of bank money

01:23:37.600 into construction

01:23:38.780 in the walls.

01:23:41.000 Obviously with the plan,

01:23:43.140 they're not going to miss

01:23:43.940 the hidden money

01:23:44.500 in the walls.

01:23:45.220 They're going to think

01:23:45.760 that it was all burned up.

01:23:47.200 I'm going to be able

01:23:47.780 to come out of here

01:23:48.540 when I get a chance,

01:23:49.480 come back here

01:23:50.500 when I get a chance

01:23:51.380 when I'm out on bail

01:23:52.980 and I'm going to grab

01:23:53.720 the spare money

01:23:54.400 and I'm going to get out of here.

01:23:55.680 That's how he convinced himself

01:23:57.420 that it was finally

01:23:58.500 okay to surrender.

01:23:59.320 I want to maybe close this up

01:24:03.060 with two questions

01:24:04.020 and they're somewhat interrelated.

01:24:06.980 When we first started talking

01:24:08.620 and obviously all the way

01:24:10.220 through this,

01:24:10.780 I noted that you have a very,

01:24:12.560 you mentioned,

01:24:14.100 you brought this up,

01:24:14.960 this FM radio voice

01:24:16.200 and I noticed immediately,

01:24:18.560 not that this is a testament

01:24:19.860 to my powers of observation,

01:24:23.160 but that you have a very calm

01:24:25.340 and measured voice

01:24:26.840 and a patient voice as well.

01:24:29.320 And so I want to talk about that

01:24:33.080 and then I want to talk about

01:24:34.240 something potentially associated

01:24:36.380 and that's the role of,

01:24:39.240 let's say,

01:24:40.200 deception versus truth

01:24:41.540 in negotiation and sales.

01:24:44.400 You know,

01:24:45.520 the amateur salesman

01:24:47.220 that I've met

01:24:49.120 and Bean,

01:24:50.720 for that matter,

01:24:51.760 I never used deception,

01:24:53.600 so that's not exactly true,

01:24:54.820 but the amateur salesman

01:24:56.340 that I've met

01:24:56.920 who think that

01:24:57.800 an appropriate sales venture

01:25:00.500 ends with,

01:25:01.760 you know,

01:25:02.320 you as the brilliant manipulator 1.00

01:25:04.100 convincing the idiot 1.00

01:25:05.240 who's made the purchase 1.00

01:25:06.500 that he needed something

01:25:08.540 he didn't need,

01:25:09.720 are perfectly willing

01:25:10.940 to use deception

01:25:11.820 and they regard the outcome

01:25:14.140 as the victory.

01:25:15.080 but my sense has been that

01:25:19.920 a negotiation

01:25:21.740 that you can't obtain

01:25:23.580 with truth

01:25:24.740 is one that's very unlikely

01:25:26.560 to have any lasting staying power

01:25:28.680 and also has complications

01:25:30.640 like that are just going to

01:25:32.160 multiply like man.

01:25:33.640 But I'm wondering,

01:25:34.500 you know,

01:25:34.720 even in these tense situations

01:25:36.180 that you're in,

01:25:37.120 how do you view the relationship

01:25:39.700 between truth and deception

01:25:42.460 and negotiation

01:25:43.920 and then I'm interested too

01:25:46.240 in the relationship

01:25:46.960 between that

01:25:48.040 and the communication pattern

01:25:51.020 that you have developed,

01:25:52.260 the voice that you use,

01:25:54.300 the cadence,

01:25:56.260 you know,

01:25:56.480 the calmness,

01:25:57.540 how much of that was practiced,

01:26:00.140 how much of it is,

01:26:01.680 practiced things can be genuine too,

01:26:04.220 but I guess I'm trying

01:26:06.700 to differentiate,

01:26:07.660 you know,

01:26:08.040 persona

01:26:08.560 from what's genuine

01:26:11.100 and I'm trying to see that

01:26:12.740 in the relationship

01:26:13.500 between deception

01:26:14.880 and truth in negotiation.

01:26:17.640 Yeah,

01:26:18.080 well,

01:26:18.340 I'll start on the first one,

01:26:19.900 deception first.

01:26:21.440 Deception is always a bad idea

01:26:23.040 and,

01:26:24.400 you know,

01:26:24.780 my currency is integrity.

01:26:26.580 Now,

01:26:26.720 if you deceive somebody,

01:26:27.700 they're going to find out

01:26:28.660 and the invitation to deceive,

01:26:32.440 you know,

01:26:32.780 in a hostage negotiation world,

01:26:34.840 they're going to tempt us

01:26:36.500 because,

01:26:36.880 number one, 0.97

01:26:37.220 they're better liars 0.81

01:26:37.920 than we are anyway, 0.94

01:26:38.940 so they're going to,

01:26:39.540 since they're better at it,

01:26:40.380 they're going to spot it right away.

01:26:42.240 So then you just failed the test

01:26:43.880 and secondly,

01:26:45.400 they're going to find out

01:26:46.360 and then your credibility is gone.

01:26:48.140 If they find out 0.95

01:26:48.800 that you're a liar

01:26:49.360 before they come out, 1.00

01:26:50.280 people get killed

01:26:50.960 and one of my favorite conversations,

01:26:54.160 favorite,

01:26:54.640 I mean,

01:26:54.880 it was,

01:26:55.620 I'm working a kidnapping

01:26:56.500 in the Middle East

01:26:58.000 and it looks,

01:27:00.260 Al-Qaeda's got a gentleman 1.00

01:27:01.880 and I'm talking to the gentleman's

01:27:06.160 widow to be

01:27:07.420 and his boss,

01:27:11.180 the hostage was Paul Johnson

01:27:14.300 and we want the woman 0.99

01:27:16.980 that we're just darn near

01:27:19.200 completely sure 0.97

01:27:19.900 Al-Qaeda's going to kill him 0.97

01:27:20.840 on deadline 0.99

01:27:21.400 and it looks that way.

01:27:23.620 That ends up being

01:27:24.640 what ends up happening

01:27:25.820 and I want her to go into the media 0.95

01:27:27.300 and do an interview

01:27:28.480 before it happens

01:27:29.520 and Paul Johnson's boss,

01:27:32.060 great human being,

01:27:33.220 is watching out

01:27:34.200 for this young lady

01:27:35.200 and is not exposing her to harm

01:27:37.680 and protecting her

01:27:38.620 as much as possible

01:27:39.520 and he looks at me

01:27:41.580 and he says,

01:27:42.580 if she does this,

01:27:44.920 is this going to save

01:27:45.940 her husband's life?

01:27:48.420 Now,

01:27:48.960 I don't think it's going to

01:27:50.160 and I look at him

01:27:52.640 and I say,

01:27:53.520 this is probably

01:27:54.400 not within reach

01:27:55.580 and he said,

01:27:57.420 I didn't think so,

01:27:58.420 I just want to see

01:27:59.260 if you're going to lie to me.

01:28:01.700 We'll do whatever you want

01:28:03.300 and so I,

01:28:05.500 you know,

01:28:05.760 I,

01:28:06.680 despite what

01:28:08.300 the temptation was,

01:28:10.100 you know,

01:28:10.220 my core value,

01:28:11.620 core values are

01:28:12.540 what you would still do

01:28:14.080 even if it costs you

01:28:15.580 and I was willing

01:28:17.480 to risk her collaboration

01:28:18.920 over my integrity

01:28:20.180 and it ended up

01:28:22.140 increasing the relationship

01:28:23.740 as a result

01:28:24.560 and that's the dynamic

01:28:26.480 in life.

01:28:28.540 I mean,

01:28:28.680 people want to know

01:28:29.560 that you'll tell them

01:28:30.240 the truth.

01:28:31.040 They want to know

01:28:31.700 that you're a straight shooter.

01:28:33.120 They want to know

01:28:33.820 if there's bad news.

01:28:34.680 You're not going to hide it from

01:28:35.700 even by

01:28:36.780 there's deception

01:28:37.820 by omission.

01:28:38.880 Okay,

01:28:39.200 so you didn't say anything.

01:28:40.560 You still know

01:28:41.380 and so I'm,

01:28:43.160 I'm a very strong believer

01:28:44.440 that deception

01:28:45.820 by commission

01:28:46.560 or omission

01:28:47.380 will always cost you

01:28:49.260 far more

01:28:50.100 than sticking

01:28:51.480 to your integrity

01:28:52.200 ever will.

01:28:52.760 How did you learn that?

01:28:56.320 Wow.

01:28:58.560 Yeah,

01:28:59.100 no kidding.

01:28:59.480 You know,

01:28:59.940 I think,

01:29:01.180 you know,

01:29:01.860 my father was a,

01:29:03.120 was a hard man

01:29:04.860 and his integrity

01:29:06.460 was extremely important

01:29:07.760 to him.

01:29:08.020 Both my,

01:29:08.360 both my parents

01:29:09.120 were that way

01:29:09.680 and I think

01:29:10.620 I,

01:29:10.860 I had that drilled

01:29:12.060 into my head

01:29:12.800 as a core value

01:29:14.700 growing up

01:29:15.420 and then I think

01:29:16.740 I probably made

01:29:17.680 a mistake

01:29:18.160 a couple of times

01:29:19.260 and behind,

01:29:22.220 besides the values

01:29:23.240 that my parents gave me,

01:29:25.060 I think I,

01:29:25.980 I screwed up a few times

01:29:27.180 and paid for it

01:29:27.880 probably.

01:29:29.040 So let's sum up here

01:29:30.480 a little bit

01:29:31.040 if we can.

01:29:32.180 So,

01:29:33.240 and I'll,

01:29:34.180 I'll do a little bit of it

01:29:35.160 and maybe you can do

01:29:35.900 a little bit of it

01:29:36.500 filling in where I miss.

01:29:38.780 So,

01:29:39.380 if you're negotiating

01:29:41.220 with someone,

01:29:43.020 you're trying to find out

01:29:44.380 what they want

01:29:45.080 and you're honest

01:29:46.800 about what you want

01:29:47.880 and you're trying

01:29:49.420 to formulate

01:29:50.680 a joint vision

01:29:51.560 and plot a course

01:29:52.880 forward for both of you

01:29:54.340 that you're both

01:29:55.420 very happy about

01:29:56.300 and that you would

01:29:56.900 abide by voluntarily

01:29:58.060 and if you're very fortunate

01:29:59.760 that's going to be

01:30:00.760 a long-term

01:30:01.320 reciprocal relationship.

01:30:02.980 That's a pretty good summary.

01:30:03.900 You're good at this

01:30:04.480 summary stuff.

01:30:07.100 And so,

01:30:08.560 you,

01:30:09.080 you want to find out too

01:30:11.260 if the person

01:30:11.960 that you're attempting

01:30:12.940 to play with,

01:30:13.780 let's say,

01:30:14.260 isn't interested

01:30:16.420 in that kind

01:30:17.080 of outcome.

01:30:18.640 And so,

01:30:19.680 part of the reason

01:30:20.620 you listen to them

01:30:21.360 is to find out

01:30:21.960 what they want

01:30:22.760 so that you can

01:30:23.980 negotiate that

01:30:25.080 outcome that you

01:30:26.220 desire

01:30:27.600 and that hypothetically

01:30:28.480 they desire

01:30:29.120 but you also want

01:30:29.860 to find out

01:30:30.380 if that isn't

01:30:31.500 what they want

01:30:32.180 so that

01:30:32.640 you don't waste

01:30:33.940 your time

01:30:34.440 or theirs.

01:30:35.740 And you don't,

01:30:37.280 you shouldn't

01:30:38.320 regard that as a failure

01:30:39.440 because

01:30:39.860 you weren't there

01:30:41.660 to convince them

01:30:42.300 anyways.

01:30:43.040 You were there

01:30:43.540 to find out

01:30:44.140 if there was

01:30:44.580 something you could

01:30:45.220 jointly do together.

01:30:47.100 And then

01:30:47.600 the tricky part,

01:30:49.120 the hard part is

01:30:50.180 there's a better outcome

01:30:53.000 no matter what.

01:30:55.120 When I was working

01:30:56.520 on the book

01:30:56.940 Never Split the Difference

01:30:58.060 and my son Brandon

01:30:59.080 very involved

01:30:59.940 and working with

01:31:01.280 Tal Raz

01:31:01.960 who's the writer.

01:31:03.360 Tal Raz,

01:31:04.020 the genius writer.

01:31:04.760 And we don't have

01:31:06.560 anything in it

01:31:07.180 about goal setting.

01:31:09.240 And we say like

01:31:10.580 look,

01:31:11.040 here's a problem

01:31:11.760 with a goal.

01:31:13.220 You quit

01:31:13.920 when you get there.

01:31:15.200 And the first problem

01:31:16.680 or you get close to it

01:31:17.940 you quit

01:31:18.340 you give up.

01:31:18.900 Ah, you know,

01:31:19.400 close it up.

01:31:19.960 So you quit early.

01:31:22.020 And then the other thing

01:31:22.880 is since

01:31:23.460 we live in

01:31:25.600 a world

01:31:27.280 of imperfect information

01:31:28.640 that means

01:31:31.700 that there's something

01:31:32.980 better beyond your goal.

01:31:34.760 And you'll miss it

01:31:36.080 if you're goal focused.

01:31:37.700 Your goal becomes blinders.

01:31:39.720 You miss better opportunities.

01:31:42.480 And so we want to leave

01:31:44.120 stuff about goals

01:31:44.980 out of the book entirely.

01:31:46.180 And Tal's like

01:31:46.720 no, no, no, no.

01:31:47.260 You don't understand.

01:31:48.580 Human beings need goals.

01:31:51.240 So, okay.

01:31:52.120 And we can see the right.

01:31:53.200 So what we're going to say is

01:31:54.500 your goal is to exceed your goal.

01:31:57.760 And that's what you jump

01:31:59.340 into a negotiation with

01:32:00.760 and that's how you come

01:32:01.800 to better outcomes

01:32:03.200 with people.

01:32:04.500 Right.

01:32:04.760 Right.

01:32:05.240 Right.

01:32:05.580 Well, that's a great place to end.

01:32:07.320 Like that's a very

01:32:09.720 that's a very

01:32:13.340 successfully negotiated

01:32:15.460 solution to the problem

01:32:17.200 of the problem with goals.

01:32:19.220 Because you were both right,

01:32:21.180 right?

01:32:21.700 We can't live without goals.

01:32:23.560 But goals are provisional.

01:32:25.360 And so you have to

01:32:26.140 the Buddhists know this

01:32:27.500 to some degree.

01:32:28.140 You have to hold on

01:32:29.680 to what you're pursuing

01:32:30.800 even with a light touch

01:32:32.400 because you don't want it

01:32:33.920 to be an impediment

01:32:34.660 to what's better

01:32:35.360 and you don't want it

01:32:36.560 to be finite.

01:32:37.360 And you know,

01:32:37.740 this is actually part

01:32:38.680 of the reason that

01:32:39.300 you're trying to negotiate

01:32:41.080 a relationship with someone

01:32:42.540 because a relationship

01:32:44.240 is a sequence of mutual goals.

01:32:46.760 And if the relationship

01:32:49.320 is conducted properly

01:32:50.420 that the expansiveness

01:32:52.060 of the goals

01:32:52.780 increases across time,

01:32:54.160 right?

01:32:54.340 And that can happen

01:32:55.100 in an unforeseen direction.

01:32:56.840 So part of the reason

01:32:57.580 you're trying to find out

01:32:58.500 who this person is,

01:32:59.560 what their problems are,

01:33:00.720 what do they want,

01:33:01.740 is to establish

01:33:02.460 the relationship

01:33:03.220 that allows you

01:33:04.240 to pursue proximal goals

01:33:05.760 in a way that allows you

01:33:07.060 to expand your vision

01:33:08.940 of goals across time,

01:33:10.480 right?

01:33:10.800 And that can be indefinite

01:33:11.920 if the relationship is good.

01:33:14.040 Right?

01:33:15.400 That's right.

01:33:17.300 My favorite phrase.

01:33:19.660 All right, sir.

01:33:20.920 That was good.

01:33:21.940 And so for everybody

01:33:22.820 watching and listening,

01:33:24.660 first thing I would say is

01:33:26.520 it's a very good thing

01:33:28.360 to learn to negotiate

01:33:29.300 and the things you heard today

01:33:31.480 about making sure

01:33:33.500 there's someone in it

01:33:34.360 for the other person.

01:33:35.640 You know,

01:33:35.940 that might even be

01:33:36.700 your primary goal

01:33:37.660 when you're trying

01:33:38.700 to establish a relationship

01:33:39.720 with someone else.

01:33:40.740 You know,

01:33:41.020 that doesn't mean

01:33:41.540 you take yourself

01:33:42.400 any less seriously.

01:33:43.680 But man,

01:33:44.980 the more there can be in it

01:33:46.180 for the other person,

01:33:46.980 the more you can

01:33:47.560 bloody well be sure,

01:33:48.780 you know,

01:33:49.000 within the bounds of justice

01:33:50.720 that the negotiation,

01:33:53.740 the settlement

01:33:54.160 that you're aiming at

01:33:55.160 is going to be sustainable.

01:33:56.900 So that's,

01:33:57.880 and then you don't have

01:33:58.820 that concern on your mind

01:34:00.200 and that's a really good deal.

01:34:02.360 And so,

01:34:03.820 and you should be encouraged

01:34:05.000 to negotiate

01:34:06.180 to the end

01:34:08.180 that you most truly desire,

01:34:09.820 right?

01:34:10.060 Again,

01:34:10.420 keeping the other person

01:34:11.340 firmly in mind

01:34:12.080 or the other people

01:34:12.840 and it's a great skill

01:34:15.200 to learn

01:34:15.700 and concentrating

01:34:17.100 as we've discussed

01:34:18.260 on listening

01:34:18.920 to the other person.

01:34:20.400 You know,

01:34:20.580 they'll tell you

01:34:21.340 how to provide them.

01:34:22.680 If you listen enough,

01:34:23.780 the other person

01:34:24.340 will tell you

01:34:24.880 how to provide them

01:34:25.600 with what they want.

01:34:27.160 And that is a bloody good deal

01:34:28.720 and you get there

01:34:29.600 from listening.

01:34:30.720 And so,

01:34:31.300 if you do that

01:34:31.960 with everyone you meet,

01:34:33.300 you'll never run out

01:34:34.340 of people

01:34:34.800 who want to collaborate

01:34:36.280 with you.

01:34:37.100 They'll line up

01:34:37.920 and that's a great deal

01:34:39.400 for everyone,

01:34:40.320 especially

01:34:40.660 if you're,

01:34:43.740 you know,

01:34:44.100 if you have integrity

01:34:44.980 in your offerings

01:34:45.800 and you're playing

01:34:46.620 a straight game.

01:34:47.740 So,

01:34:48.300 it's not going to work

01:34:48.900 anyways if you don't.

01:34:49.900 Yeah.

01:34:50.440 All right, sir.

01:34:51.100 So,

01:34:51.680 I'm going to continue

01:34:52.620 this conversation

01:34:54.080 on the Daily Wire

01:34:54.820 side of things

01:34:55.640 for half an hour.

01:34:57.200 I'm going to find out

01:34:57.980 what's motivating Chris

01:35:01.000 and how that developed

01:35:01.820 across time.

01:35:03.500 And

01:35:03.840 we're going to delve

01:35:06.080 into that.

01:35:06.580 I'm very interested

01:35:07.340 in,

01:35:07.760 you know,

01:35:08.300 how people are motivated

01:35:09.480 by call and conscience,

01:35:10.880 let's say,

01:35:11.300 to end up

01:35:11.780 not only pursuing

01:35:12.760 the things they're pursuing

01:35:13.760 but also have ended up

01:35:15.720 successful in that.

01:35:17.460 And it's good to see

01:35:18.320 examples of that

01:35:19.300 so that you know

01:35:20.040 from those examples

01:35:21.680 what to do

01:35:22.320 and what not to do.

01:35:23.200 So,

01:35:23.440 we'll delve into

01:35:24.540 the background

01:35:25.680 to everything we talked

01:35:26.520 about today

01:35:27.020 on the Daily Wire

01:35:28.200 Plus side.

01:35:29.100 And in the meantime,

01:35:30.340 thank you all

01:35:30.880 for your time

01:35:31.420 and attention.

01:35:32.060 Thanks very much

01:35:32.640 for talking to me today.

01:35:33.620 It was quite a pleasure

01:35:34.440 and

01:35:34.860 we'll take a bit

01:35:36.460 of a break

01:35:36.920 and everybody

01:35:37.560 watching and listening,

01:35:38.600 well,

01:35:38.860 thank you for tuning in.

01:35:39.880 Thank you for your time

01:35:40.700 and attention

01:35:41.160 and to the Daily Wire Plus

01:35:42.320 people for facilitating this.

01:35:44.160 That's always much appreciated.

01:35:46.140 Good to meet you, sir.

01:35:47.680 A pleasure.

01:35:48.420 Thank you.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - February 22, 2024

425. Negotiating a Raise — and a Better Life ｜ Chris Voss

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