The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

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00:00:57.420 So, hi everybody. I'm here with Todd and Krista Kolstad today, and they're a couple from northeast Montana who've had the misfortune to have their sleeves caught in the Child Protection Services maw.

00:01:22.200 And their daughter started making claims of variant gender identity in 2021 and then got tangled in online interactions that led to the arrival of Child Protection Service at the doorstep of the Kolstadz.

00:01:40.200 And to say things went downhill from there is to say almost nothing.

00:01:45.740 I'd highly recommend that you watch this podcast, especially if you regard yourself, let's say, and your family as sort of typical middle-class Americans trying to live a quiet and normal life.

00:01:57.360 Because you need to know what might happen to people who are complacent enough to imagine that such a thing is possible under the circumstances that I'll obtain today.

00:02:08.960 This is a cautionary tale, and it's a rough one.

00:02:12.180 So, join us and go down the rabbit hole of state-mandated gender-affirming care.

00:02:18.860 Well, thank you for flying here and talking to me today. I presume we're going to have a difficult conversation.

00:02:27.440 We are.

00:02:28.040 Yes, I imagine so. So, we'll start really at the beginning. You have five children.

00:02:36.880 Todd has five children.

00:02:37.680 Todd has five children.

00:02:38.600 Yes, five children.

00:02:39.120 Okay, okay. And how long have you guys been married?

00:02:42.040 We've been married seven years.

00:02:43.860 Yes.

00:02:44.520 Okay, okay.

00:02:45.780 Now, how are your children doing in general?

00:02:50.720 The oldest daughter is in Canada. She moved away when she was over the age of 18. We have a daughter that's in Kalispell area. We have a daughter that's in the Navy that's a medic. She does fantastic in what she does.

00:03:08.280 And then we have a son that's in Canada that's been with his mother the whole time. That one, they've had a lot of problems, I think. Hopefully, he's on track now.

00:03:19.740 And then we have our daughter. We have a daughter, Jennifer, that's been with me her whole life.

00:03:24.940 So, every day I went to work, I took her with, took her to breakfast every day of her life for the first few years she was in school. That kind of relationship. Took her four-wheeling, you know, out-seeing nature. And probably a super close relationship because of that.

00:03:41.480 Okay. Now, it's Jennifer's the daughter.

00:03:44.220 Yes, Jennifer.

00:03:44.800 That, where difficulties emerged in 2021.

00:03:49.100 Mm-hmm.

00:03:49.500 And you were around then.

00:03:50.920 Yes, I was.

00:03:51.600 Okay. And so, what was your view of what was going on with Jennifer in 2021?

00:03:56.920 So, in 2021, she was just 12, 12 and a half when the issue started. And, you know, she was a young girl. She had kind of come into puberty. She had struggled with bullying and stuff.

00:04:09.780 Her whole, since about, I came into her life when she was in, I think, second grade. And she'd always been bullied in school. So, it's something we've always battled.

00:04:20.280 So, in 2021, she was about 12 and a half. And people from the church started saying to us, you know, your daughter is saying that she wants to be called Leo and be referred to as a boy. And she's saying that she's your son while she's at church.

00:04:34.200 And so, we sat down with her and we said, hey, you know, what is this about? What's going on here? And she said, well, I think I want to be a boy. And we were like, okay.

00:04:44.800 So, I had a conversation with her and Todd did too. You know, we had a family conversation about, well, why do you feel this way? Do you think it's because you've always been bullied? Do you think it's because you're not in contact with your birth mom?

00:04:55.200 And as a girl, that would probably be very, very heartbreaking. You know, the person that loves you the most has never wanted anything to do with you. And so, we went over trauma and losses and things like that.

00:05:06.880 And I was like, how about if we go to counseling and you explore this with a counselor? Because she's not going to listen to her parents. You know, we don't, you know how it is with younger kids.

00:05:18.080 Anyway, so, I knew she wasn't going to take our advice. So, we put her in counseling and we thought we were in a different place.

00:05:23.600 So, we really didn't have any more issues with her saying that she wanted to be transgender until the day when all of this kicked off.

00:05:31.860 Yes. Okay. So, well, so let's delve into that a little bit. So, Todd, you said that you spent a lot of time with Jennifer.

00:05:40.540 Oh, why?

00:05:41.240 Okay. And you also, both of you pointed out that she was bullied in school from a young age. So, did she have friends at school or was she?

00:05:51.280 Very few friends.

00:05:52.700 Okay. And did you have any sense of what it was that was attracting the attention of the bullies?

00:05:58.320 Yes, kind of. Because prior to moving back to where we live now, the problem started at 12 and it was mostly lying, crazy lies.

00:06:10.960 So, the school, we met with their counselors there and they said, what the kids are doing to be mean are wrong, but she's bringing on herself with her actions.

00:06:19.720 And so, she's partly accountable too. And where we live now, the school is fantastic. The counselors, the principal, the staff is just fantastic.

00:06:29.780 And so, she would come home and we'd find out that kids there told her to kill herself. And the school would require them to write a note saying, you know, apologizing. The school apologized. And that's how she was treated.

00:06:46.440 But she, we would check her status every single day, find out how every single day went with her. We're proactive with the school. And things were really good, you know, with her life other than...

00:06:57.960 Well, so, what do you think was going on with regards to the story she was telling? You made some mention of lying that she was doing at school. And so, what do you think was happening with that?

00:07:08.320 It's strange. We wanted that diagnosed. It wouldn't just be lying. It'd be lying about good things and bad things. We didn't know where it would come from. So, our only rule with her was, you have to tell the truth. And we'd explain to her the importance of telling the truth.

00:07:24.400 So, from the standpoint of how we got here, there was never, through these years, there's never been issues of transgender. There hasn't been issues of any of that. It's been lying. You know, that kind of thing.

00:07:37.360 And I think with school, you know, just as a girl, I can say, she's always been super, super smart. Like, always straight A's, off-the-chart smarts. And I asked them, do you think she could be on the spectrum somewhere? And we're looking at some things going on there, but I've never got a diagnosis.

00:07:53.260 Is she creative?

00:07:54.120 Very, very creative.

00:07:55.440 Yes.

00:07:56.340 You see, the reason I'm asking about that, well, partly it's the lies. I'm curious about that with regards to, like, an active fantasy life, let's say.

00:08:04.660 But it's also the case that I believe that the kids who are more likely to be attracted by these gender-fluid ideologies are likely to be creative, open kids who have, in some way, have a more fluid identity because they're creative.

00:08:22.160 This is attractive to them. And you also portrayed your daughter at school, at least, as a bit of an outsider.

00:08:28.280 And so one of the attractions of this gender ideology is that it gives kids who are outsiders and who are uncertain about their identity, you know, a way of being and also a way of being outstanding and recognized for something new.

00:08:46.880 Now, the school that she was at in 2021, is that the school you were referring to where you believe they are doing a good job?

00:08:55.140 Yes.

00:08:55.780 So where do you think she picked up these ideas about gender transition?

00:09:00.720 Oh, that's easy. TikTok is one. I think there's predators on there that lead kids that are more the outsiders into a specific direction. That's a big one.

00:09:12.820 And then there's other kids already in that boat that are also seduced by those kind of things, so to speak.

00:09:19.500 And so the church was telling us and her counselors that she's running with a lot of those kind of kids is what we're being told.

00:09:26.160 And we had measures in place. Like, she just didn't have free reign of the internet. Like, we had apps on that controlled where she could go and stuff.

00:09:33.140 But when she left our house, I know she was going to a friend's house who don't have those measures in place.

00:09:38.660 So she's getting access to, you know, social media. Even though it's not in our house, she's still getting access to it.

00:09:46.600 Right. And these friends, like, did you have any sense of who they were or what they were like?

00:09:52.140 We met some of them. We tried to help them. They were kids. One of them would walk to a town 15 miles away in the winter without a coat.

00:10:00.740 And we gave him a coat and we tried to monitor that and monitor how her activities were with them.

00:10:08.240 And it's a very tough balancing line once they hit 12.

00:10:11.900 Right. Well, the thing is, kids of that age, they're trying to... The task of a child that age, really, is to stop being a child and to start associating with their peers, right?

00:10:25.140 And so part of the reason that teenage children are so susceptible to peer pressure is because their job at that age is to become socialized into the world of their peers.

00:10:35.140 And that helps them make the transition from being a dependent child to an independent adult, right?

00:10:40.580 You go from your parents to your friends with your parents in the background, and then hopefully you get through your friends in some ways so that you can become independent and then establish your own family.

00:10:52.000 So the susceptibility of teenagers to peer pressure is not only normative, but also in some ways desirable.

00:10:59.960 But the problem is, of course, that it can go very sideways if the peer group is prone to the sorts of behaviors that won't lead them into a productive and enjoyable adulthood.

00:11:15.560 So, yeah, so that's a rough situation.

00:11:17.920 And you said you tried to monitor her social media use, but there's a limit to...

00:11:23.960 Well, there is a limit to how much you can do about that, too.

00:11:27.600 Not partly because for all the dangers that are inherent to smartphones and technology, children still have to learn to master it.

00:11:37.520 And so you can...

00:11:40.960 It's not easy to figure out how to have your teenagers be expert in an electronic world without being exposed to all the catastrophes that come along with it.

00:11:51.980 Okay, so now you said that, first of all, your church alerted you to the fact that she was toying with a male identity.

00:12:00.340 Correct.

00:12:00.680 So, and you thought in...

00:12:03.220 Did you see any changes in the way she was presenting herself that had...

00:12:07.440 She's always been a tomboy, never been...

00:12:10.380 My husband owns a tech company, and so she's never been into girly things.

00:12:15.620 She's always been in computers and robots and things like that.

00:12:18.760 She's never been a girly girl.

00:12:20.160 I see. Oh, I see.

00:12:21.820 And so she had...

00:12:23.020 So one of the biggest differences between men and women, masculine and feminine temperaments, let's say,

00:12:28.920 is that men are more reliably interested in things and women are more reliably interested in people.

00:12:34.760 But she sounds like she had, at least to some degree, more male pattern interests, say.

00:12:39.880 Now, that's not completely unheard of among women, obviously, either.

00:12:43.260 So the mere fact that that occurs doesn't mean that you're born in the wrong body, let's say.

00:12:48.340 But you said she was smart and she's creative and she was interested in...

00:12:52.620 What exactly did you say?

00:12:54.660 Robots and electronics.

00:12:56.520 And with my husband owning a computer company, her and a bunch...

00:13:00.120 The techs all kind of raised their children together.

00:13:03.180 You know, they would take turns taking them to school and stuff.

00:13:05.280 So there were about three or four little girls and their interests were computers and what their dads were doing and taking apart the computer and learning about the computer.

00:13:12.800 So, again, with her being super smart, even with us putting measures in place to try and limit her internet activity, super smart kid would figure out a way around it.

00:13:23.100 You know, so we're always trying to have to kind of get around that.

00:13:26.120 Right. Okay. So now, you did sit down with her and you had a conversation about what you had heard at church.

00:13:33.800 And what did she tell you?

00:13:36.280 She started crying.

00:13:37.820 She was very, very upset and very emotional.

00:13:40.240 And she said, you know, I just, I don't know what to do.

00:13:44.100 Nobody likes me.

00:13:45.360 So she came back to, nobody really likes me.

00:13:48.100 I don't really have any friends.

00:13:49.340 So maybe if I'm something different, this will help me.

00:13:52.840 And yeah, yeah, well, I interviewed this woman, Chloe Cole.

00:13:57.360 I've heard of her.

00:13:57.840 Yeah, yeah.

00:13:58.580 Well, Chloe is a detransitioner and now an activist trying to stop the early surgical transition, mutilation and sterilization of children.

00:14:10.080 She had both her breasts removed when she was, I think she was 15, something absolutely awful.

00:14:15.560 And she said to me, well, a couple of things that I thought were interesting.

00:14:19.260 The first thing she said is when she was about 12 or 11 or 12, she realized or assumed that when she did finish her journey through puberty, that she would have a rather boyish figure.

00:14:32.200 And she had fantasized about being built like Kim Kardashian, you know, extremely curvy.

00:14:40.820 And she thought that it's not going to go that way.

00:14:44.420 And I won't make a very good woman.

00:14:47.240 And so maybe I would make a better boy, which is, I suppose, something that's within the realm of fantasy for, you know, young women who are battling with the complexity.

00:15:02.180 But nobody ever told her, you know, none of the counselors she ever talked to, none of the psychologists so-called or the physicians never told her that that kind of discomfort with that bodily discomfort is very, very, very common, normative even among 12, 13-year-old girls.

00:15:19.440 And that virtually everybody grows out of it.

00:15:21.540 And that the suffering that goes, see, the other thing that happens to girls too when they hit puberty is their levels of negative emotion go up.

00:15:29.240 And so that can also confuse them.

00:15:32.460 And your daughter was additionally suffering from the fact, and this is a real problem, of her unpopularity, right?

00:15:37.700 And so she's going to be casting around looking for a way of being as a teenager that's going to pull her into the social group, right?

00:15:46.120 And so you...

00:15:46.960 I was just going to say, she always wants, she's always wanted to be like the pretty ultra popular girl.

00:15:52.360 And I get it.

00:15:52.880 I'm a girl too.

00:15:53.860 Like who doesn't want that when they're a kid?

00:15:55.460 But instead, she's always been like the kid in math club and the kid who goes to math competitions and wins and the kid who, you know, super, super smart.

00:16:04.480 So she's always struggled with that.

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00:17:42.500 She'd probably do fine once she got to university.

00:17:48.640 Yeah.

00:17:49.280 Right, because then she's going to be able to find a niche where those skills and abilities, there'll be people around her that she'll be able to fit right in with.

00:17:59.100 And it's also at that time later where that kind of intelligence and mathematical ability and interest is really going to pay off.

00:18:06.680 But that's not necessarily the case in junior high school, for example.

00:18:10.040 Okay, so you talk to her, and she's upset.

00:18:13.100 She's crying, and she's telling you that, you know, she's pretty sick of being unpopular and so forth.

00:18:17.880 And you take her to a counselor, okay, or you set her up with a counselor.

00:18:22.760 And what sort of counselor was that?

00:18:24.600 What were their qualifications?

00:18:25.440 It was through our church.

00:18:26.380 Yeah?

00:18:26.540 It was the director of the youth group who has some counseling credentials.

00:18:29.620 And so we asked him if he would start meeting with her weekly before youth group and talking to her.

00:18:34.740 Okay, and what was the consequence of that?

00:18:37.540 Everything was really positive.

00:18:38.980 During that whole time, but what came out later, she said they put a gun to her head, which was, again, one of the crazy lies.

00:18:46.760 And she meant it literally, so it was mixed.

00:18:50.480 Hmm, hmm.

00:18:51.400 And so, but there was a counselor with someone you trusted.

00:18:53.840 Yes.

00:18:54.040 And you don't believe that the counselor was someone who tilted her farther down this road?

00:19:00.700 Not at all.

00:19:01.300 No.

00:19:01.420 I don't think he did at all.

00:19:02.320 Okay, so you had the conversation with her, and then you thought things were essentially going okay.

00:19:06.780 Mm-hmm.

00:19:07.680 Was she still complaining at that time about not being popular at school?

00:19:11.540 Mm-hmm.

00:19:12.140 She was.

00:19:12.860 She was.

00:19:13.420 And what grade was she in at that point?

00:19:15.780 Seven?

00:19:16.460 Yeah.

00:19:16.760 It started in seventh grade.

00:19:17.440 Great stuff.

00:19:17.920 That's a rough grade.

00:19:18.900 So, yeah, yeah.

00:19:19.720 Okay, okay.

00:19:20.840 So, she sees the counselor for about how long?

00:19:23.440 About six or eight months.

00:19:24.820 Okay.

00:19:25.180 And weekly.

00:19:26.000 Mm-hmm.

00:19:26.360 And did you see any changes in her behavior or anything?

00:19:28.700 Like, what were things like at home at that point?

00:19:30.900 That's what, it was so hard to analyze because I drove her to school or to the bus, whichever she wanted, just a best friend relationship.

00:19:39.340 I took her to school, picked her up.

00:19:41.320 Her life was happy.

00:19:42.800 If something bad happened, she would let me know it, right?

00:19:46.660 You know, she would let me know right away.

00:19:48.800 And she was in a hurry to do her kid things, get on her electronics or go see her friends.

00:19:54.460 And she had a summer job.

00:19:56.840 Life was good.

00:19:57.380 So, you felt that things were good.

00:19:58.940 And you believed that the communication channels were open.

00:20:01.580 Yes.

00:20:01.940 And you're watching this.

00:20:03.080 I mean, they have a very close relationship.

00:20:04.740 You're watching this.

00:20:05.520 What do you think of the relationship between these two?

00:20:08.120 You know what?

00:20:09.100 They're very close.

00:20:10.540 She's also very close to me because I'm the only mother figure she's ever known.

00:20:13.520 So, she actually calls me mom.

00:20:14.700 You're the only stepmom.

00:20:15.680 Yeah.

00:20:16.180 And so, we were very, very close with her and very open communication.

00:20:21.880 Definitely.

00:20:22.580 Okay.

00:20:24.360 But, again, you have to remember, we also have a child that has behavior problems

00:20:28.060 and has some other attention-seeking behaviors and stuff like that.

00:20:31.260 So, even though we were close to her and monitoring her and keeping an eye on her,

00:20:35.020 she still kind of has this other life over here where she, I don't want to say gets in trouble,

00:20:39.420 but she makes up stories and she does things.

00:20:42.080 Then it comes back to her life over here.

00:20:43.380 Well, that's tricky too, eh?

00:20:44.620 Because, you know, you don't want, you actually don't want your children, in some ways,

00:20:51.600 to share absolutely everything with you when they're teenagers, right?

00:20:55.320 Because they should be parceling off a part of their life that's private.

00:21:00.080 Yeah.

00:21:00.360 I don't mean hidden exactly or secret.

00:21:02.400 That isn't what I mean.

00:21:03.240 But because they're starting to mature, they should have their right to privacy

00:21:09.840 and their right to explore in that private domain.

00:21:12.100 I mean, one of the things we do know about the pathway of childhood development is

00:21:16.340 there are some children who act out all the time, let's say,

00:21:20.100 and they often stay in trouble and get in more trouble as they get older.

00:21:23.920 And then there's children who never do anything wrong at all.

00:21:27.680 And they also get in trouble as they get older.

00:21:30.080 They're more likely to be dependent and depressed and anxious.

00:21:32.900 Then there's the kids in the middle who, you know, will experiment

00:21:35.760 and cause a certain amount of trouble and trying to see where the limits are as teenagers.

00:21:42.520 And so, and that does imply that they pass off a bit of a private life.

00:21:46.440 But as far as you guys were concerned, after you had that initial conversation,

00:21:51.440 while she was undergoing this counseling,

00:21:53.820 things were no worse than they usually were, at least.

00:21:57.580 And some of the signs were good.

00:22:00.300 She had activities.

00:22:01.260 She was going to school.

00:22:02.380 She had a job.

00:22:03.820 She had some interests.

00:22:05.120 And she was still communicating with both of you.

00:22:07.660 Absolutely.

00:22:08.580 Absolutely.

00:22:08.900 Okay.

00:22:09.220 And what about her siblings?

00:22:10.640 What did they, were any of her siblings around at that time as well?

00:22:14.620 She's the last one in the house.

00:22:16.040 Yeah.

00:22:16.460 And so, three of the older girls are kind of busy with their lives.

00:22:21.700 And, you know, they call maybe once a week or so.

00:22:24.200 And she hasn't spoken to her brother, who's been with a birth mom,

00:22:28.160 in probably seven or eight years.

00:22:30.200 They just don't have phone contact.

00:22:32.620 Okay.

00:22:32.960 Okay.

00:22:33.280 So, in some ways, in your household, at this time,

00:22:36.680 she was in the position of only child.

00:22:39.100 Correct.

00:22:39.780 She's the only child in the house.

00:22:41.040 Okay.

00:22:41.420 So now, all right.

00:22:42.800 So, you're going along and there's some problems,

00:22:44.620 but they don't sound like they're completely out of the ordinary

00:22:47.680 for, you know, a 13-year-old girl with some trouble socializing.

00:22:52.500 And so, what's the next event?

00:22:55.800 So, well, two things.

00:22:56.900 What do you think is happening at school?

00:22:59.180 Like, was your school a woke school?

00:23:01.940 Was it a reasonable school?

00:23:03.800 Was it still the case that you think that most of the exposure

00:23:07.340 she had to this gender ideology was online?

00:23:10.440 Did the school play a role in this at all?

00:23:12.060 The school played absolutely no role in that.

00:23:13.920 Yeah.

00:23:14.620 We live in a very, very small area.

00:23:17.200 So, I often tell people, if you Google middle of nowhere United States,

00:23:20.640 that town that comes up, Glasgow, Montana, that's where we live.

00:23:24.280 And so, they're not very woke out there at all.

00:23:27.020 And so, the school, if she had demanded to be called by other names

00:23:29.800 or other pronouns, they would have shut it down immediately.

00:23:32.180 They wouldn't have done that.

00:23:34.720 Okay.

00:23:35.200 So, this, as far as you're concerned,

00:23:36.780 this was something that was mostly occurring as a consequence of her,

00:23:40.040 of a particular peer group she was associating with.

00:23:43.000 Yeah.

00:23:43.400 And also, information that she was obtaining online.

00:23:47.200 And you mentioned TikTok in particular.

00:23:49.300 Was there a reason for that specific mention?

00:23:52.100 Yeah, because some of, well, we had seen a couple of times where we were just blown away

00:23:58.200 because life was perfect at home.

00:24:00.460 Relationship was perfect.

00:24:01.500 And then we would see crazy posts online or through email.

00:24:05.420 And then some of the applications that she would go to on her computer.

00:24:09.840 And these were some of the things she was posting.

00:24:11.780 And what sort of things was she posting?

00:24:13.660 Well, one time we were in, for example, we were in Kalispell.

00:24:19.380 She was in Glasgow and she had posted she's in some kind of gang

00:24:23.560 and that her parents would beat her ass was her words.

00:24:27.360 And none of that, we were shocked when we saw that on her phone.

00:24:30.640 And she said, I don't know why I do this.

00:24:33.320 I don't know why I do this.

00:24:34.160 I see. So that was another manifestation of those fantastic fantasies and lies.

00:24:38.600 Yes.

00:24:39.000 Essentially.

00:24:39.940 Right. So she's toying with being different, a different person online.

00:24:45.200 So that's the weird, one of the weird things about the online world is

00:24:48.460 because you can be any, and we don't know exactly know what this is doing to kids.

00:24:53.000 You can be anything you want online, right?

00:24:55.480 Because there's no one there watching you.

00:24:57.100 And so any story you tell, you can get away with any story you tell.

00:25:02.880 And you can also monitor the impact of that story, right?

00:25:06.900 And if you're desperately seeking attention, then if you come up with a fantastical story

00:25:11.800 that buys you a lot of sympathy, let's say, then that's an easy road to walk down.

00:25:17.540 So, you know, I've seen other teenage girls get in trouble in exactly this way.

00:25:22.000 Do you know, this is a very personal question and you're not obliged to answer it.

00:25:26.580 Do you know if she was posting, do you know if any of the interactions she had online

00:25:30.840 had any sexual component?

00:25:32.600 Was she posting photographs or anything like that?

00:25:34.960 No, I've never seen anything like that.

00:25:36.820 It was more the fantasy and the lies.

00:25:39.000 Like she would say that she had a twin brother that her birth mom killed

00:25:43.660 and that her birth mom was in prison.

00:25:45.780 Just crazy things that have never happened, you know.

00:25:48.940 So it was more fantasy, but never, never really sexual.

00:25:53.020 Right.

00:25:53.360 And you didn't have any sense that there was like specific predators after her online?

00:25:58.320 Did she have like, had she gathered around her a community of people

00:26:02.500 that were attending to what she was posting

00:26:04.480 that might have involved some of these more predatory characters?

00:26:07.780 She did gather a group of people from the trans community that gathered around her

00:26:13.340 and was telling her, you know, how brave she is and how great she is.

00:26:17.700 So she did gather that crowd.

00:26:19.400 Now the crowd where she was saying she was a gang and stuff, no.

00:26:23.400 Right, but in this other domain she did.

00:26:25.680 Well, that's a very interesting form of reinforcement.

00:26:27.940 Well, you see that in the culture at large, you know,

00:26:31.240 that there's this insistence that these brave people who come out with their true identity

00:26:36.500 are heroes of a sort, right?

00:26:39.180 And part of the problem with that is that, well, there are confused people

00:26:43.140 who struggle their whole life to come out from what they're hiding behind

00:26:47.780 to reveal who they are, let's say.

00:26:50.100 But there's plenty of people who are narcissistic as can possibly be imagined

00:26:54.060 who use that as a means of obtaining like a false status.

00:26:59.280 And that's certainly, I would say, something that the Biden administration

00:27:02.660 has been particularly complicit in producing.

00:27:05.000 And so if your daughter is unsure of herself and if she's unpopular

00:27:09.100 and she finds a group of people who are congratulating her on her bravery

00:27:13.240 every time she takes a step in the direction of this revelation of identity.

00:27:18.820 You know, Cleo told me that after a while too,

00:27:21.860 and I know another girl who is in this situation too,

00:27:24.240 you know, after a while, after you adopt a new identity like that,

00:27:27.840 say as a boy and you gather a bit of a community around you,

00:27:31.320 it's pretty damn hard to step backwards, right?

00:27:34.300 Because you feel like you're between, absolutely.

00:27:36.320 You feel like you're the one girl I'm speaking of, like she decided that she was a boy

00:27:41.660 and then some of her friends afterward, as a consequence of her influence,

00:27:47.760 felt they were boys.

00:27:49.180 And then when she decided maybe she wasn't a boy and that was a bad idea,

00:27:52.960 one of the things that she found very difficult was stepping backwards

00:27:58.080 because now she felt guilty that she had enticed other people down this road, right?

00:28:02.480 So you start to produce these false identities and they take on a life of their own,

00:28:07.680 like any lie does.

00:28:09.440 Right.

00:28:09.920 Right.

00:28:10.180 And then if it's magnified by people,

00:28:12.980 in some ways the people online are doing exactly the same thing

00:28:16.100 because they've taken dire steps in the wrong direction

00:28:18.520 and are likely to encourage that in other people.

00:28:20.980 Exactly.

00:28:21.620 Right.

00:28:21.820 Okay.

00:28:22.200 So, but all things considered, you two weren't unduly concerned.

00:28:27.420 You had some concerns about her popularity and about her storytelling.

00:28:32.720 The teachers, are they reporting any particularly unacceptable behavior at school during this time?

00:28:39.620 Yes, in that this wasn't a daily problem.

00:28:45.120 Once every month to sometimes two months, something would happen.

00:28:50.480 We'd hear her version of it.

00:28:52.340 So we would right away, because we're concerned parents, we interacted.

00:28:55.440 And the schools there are just very good at interacting with parents.

00:28:59.500 They're not woke.

00:29:00.600 They're not all that.

00:29:02.060 But they would say, our daughter's version of that was not accurate.

00:29:06.220 She actually instigated it, or she caused the confrontation,

00:29:11.060 even though what the other kids did was they're in trouble.

00:29:15.040 You know, they're in trouble.

00:29:16.100 Yeah.

00:29:16.380 But she's got a part to play in this, too.

00:29:20.520 Right.

00:29:21.180 It's almost like if, how can I put this?

00:29:24.440 Like if I keep poking at Todd, and then he snaps at me,

00:29:27.620 and then I'm like, oh my gosh, look what you did.

00:29:29.440 It was like that type of behavior.

00:29:30.800 That kind of attention-seeking, victimizing.

00:29:34.220 Provocativeness.

00:29:34.960 Yeah.

00:29:35.720 However, there was always a sense, though, in what you said earlier,

00:29:40.780 there's always a sense that this is going to be a short little battle,

00:29:44.180 because her brain's going to develop, and she's going to become a very smart girl.

00:29:49.240 And I had no doubt this is going to be a very successful young adult.

00:29:53.340 You know, I never thought.

00:29:54.820 But so there was never a sense of this is, there wasn't such a strong,

00:29:59.100 I want to be trans, or there was none of that really going on that would have led to us more.

00:30:03.920 So you had confidence in her long-term outcome, even?

00:30:06.420 Absolutely.

00:30:07.140 Why absolutely?

00:30:08.260 Why were you so certain of that?

00:30:09.820 Because if just given more time to grow up, you know, because kids hit an awkward age.

00:30:17.140 Yeah.

00:30:17.420 She had a lot of attention when she was a kid.

00:30:19.380 She was in our stores.

00:30:20.380 Customers would bring her stuffed animals, and she's in an IT corporation,

00:30:25.360 and people treat her like gold, and she grows up, and all of a sudden she's at an awkward age.

00:30:30.100 Glasses, braces, and all that.

00:30:32.400 Okay, okay.

00:30:33.300 And with the wrong kids.

00:30:35.940 But eventually they'd be good kids, and becoming an adult, the brain develops,

00:30:40.680 and they settle into whatever gender they really are.

00:30:44.660 Right, so you guys were still thinking that this was just, you were prepared to wait it out.

00:30:49.720 You'd had lots of children.

00:30:51.100 Yes, yes.

00:30:51.640 You'd gone through this with many kids already.

00:30:53.780 One of my daughters initially didn't, was confused, but became an adult and wasn't.

00:30:59.740 Said, boy, I can't believe I thought that way when I was younger.

00:31:02.040 Good thing I didn't make bad decisions, you know.

00:31:06.800 Yes, well, it's not uncommon.

00:31:09.080 And you could imagine, too, like you've characterized your daughter as somewhat of a tomboy.

00:31:12.780 And I think that, to some degree, was confusing for tomboys forever.

00:31:17.480 But they weren't also ever offered the opportunity of presuming that just because they had some aspects of their character that were more masculine,

00:31:25.940 that what that meant was they had to surgically bring themselves into alignment with that.

00:31:30.160 Exactly.

00:31:30.560 Right, which is a very, very, very, very bad idea.

00:31:34.200 Okay, so, all right.

00:31:36.140 So, you're going along with this situation, and you have some concerns, but you believe they'll reconcile themselves in the long run.

00:31:43.440 And so, and then when do things break?

00:31:46.400 Right, I'll let you tell Mo, so we were coming back from Billings, Montana, from a medical appointment.

00:31:53.240 And the location that our daughter worked had called and asked if our son could come into work.

00:32:00.880 And it all took off from there.

00:32:02.900 And there was nothing in the middle.

00:32:06.340 There was just, for over a year, just nothing, but a good kid, great relationship, complete trust.

00:32:13.000 And all of a sudden, we find out that she had created this world where she works, where she's known as a boy.

00:32:20.460 And that was legal.

00:32:22.280 We made a decision.

00:32:23.900 We thought, okay, we don't want to say nothing.

00:32:25.960 And I was bummed out.

00:32:27.440 I was very depressed about it.

00:32:29.440 We don't want to say nothing.

00:32:30.840 We don't want to ruin, you know, because school's getting ready to start.

00:32:33.840 I wanted everything on a positive note.

00:32:36.780 But yet, she had been lying to us and lying about this, about her.

00:32:40.360 And how, she had been working there a year?

00:32:43.220 No, she'd been there only a few months.

00:32:45.580 Okay, a couple of months.

00:32:47.260 And what was she doing?

00:32:48.180 What was the job?

00:32:49.080 It was at a local restaurant, just a little local dive restaurant.

00:32:53.100 Right, so she had gone there as a boy.

00:32:56.120 No, they all knew that she was female.

00:32:58.880 Okay.

00:32:59.140 She went there and she presented this image that she's transgender and that they needed to buy into this and call her by a different pronoun and stuff.

00:33:07.560 And they were all kind of like, uh, I don't really know what to do with this.

00:33:11.100 So they just played along with it.

00:33:13.560 I see.

00:33:14.360 I see.

00:33:14.520 So they allowed her to go by Leo.

00:33:16.500 I see.

00:33:16.880 So she started to, now, is it accurate to say that she started to take the persona that she was playing with online and now start to see what would happen if she was playing this out in the world?

00:33:27.620 Yes, in the world.

00:33:28.700 And so she built this little thing at her job.

00:33:32.080 And again, that she was a boy and, you know, going by Leo and stuff.

00:33:36.100 So it all came to a head on August 18th.

00:33:39.320 Yeah.

00:33:39.900 The next week, school was starting and she was going to be a ninth grader in high school.

00:33:43.960 And because of all of her past history was struggling in school, we said, hey, why don't we take a break from the summer job and go ahead and start high school, see where we can go with high school.

00:33:54.360 And if at Christmas break you're doing great, which you always do great, and, you know, things are under control and you're not feeling too anxious or too bullied or anything, go back to your summer job.

00:34:05.840 Maybe you can start working one day a week during, you know, like maybe one day a weekend on the winter hours.

00:34:10.720 And she obviously didn't want to do that.

00:34:13.960 We also talked to her about, hey, you know, they called and they said our son needed to come to work today.

00:34:18.840 And, you know, what's going on with that?

00:34:20.920 Or why are you doing this again?

00:34:22.640 You know, do we need to have a conversation about that?

00:34:24.760 And she was just mad.

00:34:25.600 She was a mad teenager that day.

00:34:27.380 Okay, so let's, okay, so you guys, you found out what she was doing at work and you suggested to her that she stop the job temporarily.

00:34:38.740 And if things went well, she could pick it up again in the winter, essentially.

00:34:43.160 Okay, and which part of that do you think made her angry?

00:34:46.980 Well, you also called her out on the fact that she had been presenting herself as a boy at the job.

00:34:52.280 So what do you think it was that made her angry?

00:34:54.400 Did she really like the job?

00:34:55.640 Did she feel you were interfering?

00:34:57.140 No, it wasn't that.

00:34:57.860 What do you think it was?

00:34:58.840 I think it was the fact that we called her out.

00:35:01.000 And this personality and this fantasy that she began living, she was now going to have to stop living.

00:35:07.420 Good way to put that.

00:35:08.800 It was, I think it was that she had a little world within the world where she could be what she wanted to be at that time.

00:35:14.680 And that was being imploded on her.

00:35:16.920 Right.

00:35:17.140 And instead, she also did not want to start high school.

00:35:19.960 And there were some instances prior to school, and this is just days before school starts,

00:35:25.640 where some of the kids were already being mean, you know.

00:35:28.100 That's true.

00:35:28.560 We took her to high school orientation, and some of the kids were already at high school orientation being mean to her.

00:35:33.800 I see, I see.

00:35:34.700 And so, and...

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00:36:44.840 How do you think she was doing at her job in her new identity?

00:36:49.260 I mean, people were playing along with that.

00:36:52.220 Was she being bullied at work?

00:36:54.300 No.

00:36:55.000 No, she did have a couple incidents where some people had said things to her at work and she came home upset.

00:37:00.000 So, not necessarily getting bullied, but there were people that were like, you're not a boy.

00:37:04.700 We're not playing along with this.

00:37:06.660 That's not how, when she came home and was upset, that's not what she'd say to us.

00:37:09.820 She'd say, oh, the customers were really mean today, you know, and things like that.

00:37:12.920 But in hindsight, in kind of putting it together with her boss now, that's what was going on, is people were like, you're not a boy.

00:37:19.980 What is wrong with you?

00:37:20.880 Why are you acting this way?

00:37:22.100 And she would be very, very upset by the time she got home.

00:37:25.300 Okay, so she's heading back to school and she's going into high school.

00:37:29.160 So, that's a big transition.

00:37:30.360 And she's, it looks like there's going to be some continuation of the same trouble.

00:37:36.080 And she's not particularly happy about having had her new fantasy life at work exposed.

00:37:43.460 Now, is there anything else going on at the time that's, what else is happening?

00:37:48.300 Well, she, just a strange problem.

00:37:50.560 She started having really, really bad headaches.

00:37:52.900 And she started having vision problems.

00:37:54.700 And we had full medical insurance.

00:37:57.320 We took her in for everything.

00:37:58.400 We're having her eyes constantly checked.

00:38:01.260 She was going through hair loss.

00:38:03.320 She was wanting to wear ball caps all the time.

00:38:06.080 She was having almost like, we don't know if they're hallucinations or what you would call it.

00:38:12.260 But there was a combination of those things happening steadily and just terrible headaches.

00:38:18.180 And so, that was a concern that we were having.

00:38:21.940 It was adding to the other, you know, behavioral things.

00:38:25.240 And they seem to go in line with that almost.

00:38:27.040 So, in hindsight, we found out that one of her friends, who was another 14-year-old girl, was ordering her hormones off of Amazon and having them sent to her house, not ours, and then giving those to our daughter, Jennifer.

00:38:41.940 What were the hormones?

00:38:43.220 And how were those purchasable on Amazon?

00:38:45.160 Do you know?

00:38:45.640 They are purchasable on Amazon, and you don't have to prove that you're 18 or anything.

00:38:49.240 You can just go in and buy them.

00:38:52.260 And they were female-to-male hormones.

00:38:56.440 I could look it up and send it to you, the exact ones, if you want.

00:39:00.300 So, we found out that after all this happened, that that's what was going on at the time.

00:39:05.240 Because we couldn't figure it out.

00:39:06.180 I took her to the eye doctor three times.

00:39:07.880 And I was like, something must be wrong with her glasses.

00:39:10.020 You know, you must be wrong.

00:39:11.260 She's having these headaches.

00:39:12.300 And they were like, no, we can't find this.

00:39:14.780 And was the hair loss noticeable?

00:39:17.000 Every one of the things that we said was listed as a side effect.

00:39:20.280 And that's if you're taking the right dosage and you're a teenager.

00:39:25.000 And most likely, when kids are prescribing drugs to kids, what's the odds of them following the prescription if they're in a hurry to try to become something else?

00:39:32.860 So, that's what we are afraid of.

00:39:34.280 Oh, yeah.

00:39:35.120 Jesus, that's brutal.

00:39:36.240 Yeah, because that, well, any, first of all, I had no idea that that was such an easy thing to do.

00:39:42.520 And second, you just have absolutely no idea what that might do to her mental health or physical health, generally speaking.

00:39:50.480 Right.

00:39:50.840 And looking back, I could see things like, she was acting more aggressive, like really quick to anger.

00:39:58.140 Yes.

00:39:58.680 You know, her skin, her complexion just went terrible.

00:40:02.520 And I took her to the doctor.

00:40:03.720 I was ordering her proactive, you know, all these things online.

00:40:07.080 Just like, what is going on with this kid's acne?

00:40:09.200 Like, this is not normal for her.

00:40:10.820 So, in hindsight, I know it was now those hormones that she had taken herself.

00:40:17.240 Right.

00:40:17.960 Right.

00:40:18.420 We didn't find this out until after CPS had taken her away.

00:40:22.740 Okay.

00:40:23.140 So, okay.

00:40:23.740 So, now she's off to high school.

00:40:25.740 So, continue the story.

00:40:27.160 What happens?

00:40:27.420 So, on August 18th, what had happened is we had this discussion with her about stopping the job and starting high school and starting fresh.

00:40:33.660 And she was very angry with us and very upset with us that day.

00:40:38.600 But she, even though she was angry, she was coming in and out of the room with us.

00:40:42.600 You know, she'd talk to us and stuff, but then she'd be snippy, you know, and go back to her room.

00:40:47.320 Typical teenager behavior.

00:40:49.000 So, it wasn't alarming.

00:40:49.920 So, I got a call at exactly 148 from our local police department saying that our daughter had made text message comments to another child that she wanted to kill herself and that this was her intention.

00:41:03.000 So, I stayed on the phone with the police officer.

00:41:05.620 I walked down the hallway to where she was and I...

00:41:09.660 Who reported that?

00:41:11.360 I'm sorry, what?

00:41:11.820 Who reported the text messages?

00:41:13.300 The other child that she made these comments to.

00:41:16.100 The child reported it.

00:41:16.940 Mm-hmm.

00:41:17.980 Do you think the child did that of her own accord?

00:41:21.460 Or was that a plan?

00:41:22.620 Or were there parents involved?

00:41:24.180 I think she...

00:41:25.460 That's very odd.

00:41:26.360 She only met the child one time at a track meet like seven or eight months prior.

00:41:30.860 But she had spun this whole thing with this other little girl that she had terminal cancer and that Todd and I weren't letting her get treatments.

00:41:38.480 So, yes, I do...

00:41:39.320 Oh, I see. So, this was part and parcel of a whole story.

00:41:41.460 Yeah. So, I do think that the child reported it because I think the child was like, she's being terribly abused by these awful people.

00:41:48.180 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

00:41:49.240 Yeah. So, the police officer, like I said, he called. I went down the hallway and I talked to Jennifer and she was in a room, but the door was open.

00:41:56.960 And I was like, hey, you know, what's going on?

00:41:59.120 The cops are on the phone. Like, what is this about?

00:42:01.460 No, I've seen other girls spin fantasies like that online and make false reports to other people of abuse in the household.

00:42:08.300 And the social services teams come rampaging in like mad, right?

00:42:13.520 And often the girls who have spun the fantasies, well, they're taken completely aback by the consequences of their actions.

00:42:21.060 But, you know, that's another indication of that bit of tendency towards histrionic behavior, right?

00:42:27.560 Dramatic and histrionic behavior that can produce these sorts of cascading consequences.

00:42:32.300 Okay. So, this was reported to the police.

00:42:34.060 Right. And so, I stayed on the phone with the officer and I spoke to our daughter.

00:42:37.200 And I told the police officer, I'm like, I don't think, I think she's just angry at us.

00:42:42.460 She's having a day.

00:42:43.520 And this is something that she's doing to act up and act out for attention.

00:42:47.200 I said, I'm not concerned.

00:42:48.660 If I am concerned, I'll certainly call you back.

00:42:50.640 I'll call an ambulance.

00:42:51.580 I'll do whatever I have to do to make sure that she's safe, you know?

00:42:54.520 And so, that was at about 148.

00:42:57.620 And then at 740 that night is when Children's Services showed up at our house because they said the police officer could not lay eyes on the child or speak to the child directly.

00:43:07.280 Even though he didn't ask.

00:43:08.520 He didn't come over.

00:43:09.440 He didn't ask this year.

00:43:10.520 He didn't ask for me to hand her the phone.

00:43:12.620 None of that happened.

00:43:13.960 So, at this point—

00:43:15.200 So, how many people from Child Services showed up?

00:43:17.800 Just one lady.

00:43:18.320 Just one lady.

00:43:19.380 And so, at this point, we're like, okay, well, this has never happened before and this is weird.

00:43:23.380 And you're really taken aback when Children's Services, you know?

00:43:26.220 Now you're in trouble.

00:43:27.480 Yeah, you're like, what did I do?

00:43:28.920 What's going on around here?

00:43:30.500 So, we were very transparent because our attitude was being transparent, we have nothing to hide.

00:43:35.400 So, why not let them look at whatever they want to look at and then they can go about their day and go on their way?

00:43:40.740 So, we gave her a tour of the house.

00:43:42.500 We showed her—

00:43:43.380 What do you think you should have done?

00:43:45.920 Now, in hindsight, I think we should have said, no, this isn't—get out of here.

00:43:51.020 Like, you can lay eyes on the child if you want.

00:43:53.380 But you're not coming to our house.

00:43:54.700 You're not getting into our lives.

00:43:56.360 There's no reason for you to be here.

00:43:57.920 Like, we should have stood strong in the fact that—

00:44:00.280 Yeah, it's tough, eh?

00:44:01.120 Because the natural proclivity, if everything is okay, is to do exactly what you did to cooperate

00:44:08.220 and to believe that your cooperation will produce the best possible positive result.

00:44:14.960 My suspicions are now that, for everybody watching and listening, if child services shows up at your doorstep, it's time to get a lawyer.

00:44:22.380 It is.

00:44:22.660 Like, right now.

00:44:23.200 Absolutely.

00:44:23.500 Before you talk to them, before you do anything with them.

00:44:25.940 Absolutely.

00:44:26.300 And not to presume axiomatically that they are on your side or that things are going to go well.

00:44:31.600 Right.

00:44:31.860 I would say quite the contrary.

00:44:33.640 And that was where we're at.

00:44:34.880 We thought, oh, well, they're going to be on our side.

00:44:37.080 They're going to see that we're dealing with a child who has some problems that we're addressing,

00:44:41.260 and then they're going to go about their day, and that's not what happens.

00:44:44.760 Okay, so you're showing this person around your house.

00:44:47.320 We showed her around the house.

00:44:48.360 What's the interaction like with the person?

00:44:50.780 It was friendly.

00:44:51.560 She was friendly.

00:44:52.460 She was nice.

00:44:53.500 I mean, yeah.

00:44:54.100 Our home is very stocked, very nice home.

00:44:58.360 Our daughter's spoiled rotten for technology in her room.

00:45:02.740 The report was that she had taken 30 ibuprofen and drank.

00:45:06.240 Well, that's, we haven't gotten there yet.

00:45:07.760 So what happened then, she said she had to talk to Jennifer alone.

00:45:10.800 Yeah.

00:45:11.080 And we were, at that point, we were like, wow, this is getting really.

00:45:14.820 Yeah.

00:45:15.560 But we said, okay, you can talk to her alone.

00:45:17.940 And they went out on the porch.

00:45:19.060 They spoke for about 10 minutes.

00:45:20.400 And then Todd and I went out on the porch because we're like, we're just not comfortable.

00:45:23.280 Yeah, right.

00:45:23.860 This is going in a weird way.

00:45:25.100 We're not okay with this.

00:45:26.780 And at that point, that's when Jennifer had told a CPS worker that she had taken 30 ibuprofen

00:45:34.640 earlier in the day at about three o'clock, as well as she drank toilet bowl cleaner in an effort to end her life.

00:45:40.600 And we're like, we know this didn't happen because she has no signs of chemical burns.

00:45:45.620 You know, she's not lethargic.

00:45:46.840 She's not sick.

00:45:48.660 And plus, I had been in the kitchen that day with my laptop at the table working where the ibuprofen and stuff were.

00:45:54.500 And I know she hadn't taken any.

00:45:56.200 You know, she hadn't had any squirled away.

00:45:57.780 I knew she hadn't done it.

00:45:59.240 But we were like, we know that she tells stories, and this is not true.

00:46:03.880 But we're going to go to the hospital and have her checked because we're going to be safe as you could possibly be.

00:46:09.780 And then that's where all the problems really, really started when we got to the hospital.

00:46:13.340 Okay, okay. Well, continue. Tell me what happened.

00:46:15.120 So, we get to the hospital that night.

00:46:16.460 You take her. Does the social worker come along with you at this point?

00:46:19.000 She does, yes.

00:46:19.740 Okay, so all of you are going to the hospital.

00:46:21.720 So, we transport our daughter with us.

00:46:23.940 What sort of mood is your daughter in at that moment?

00:46:27.360 Nobody spoke.

00:46:28.320 We weren't really speaking.

00:46:30.140 We were really blown away by everything that just happened because we just had friends over, and our daughter was having a really good time.

00:46:36.960 And she had a new puppy, too, that day.

00:46:39.560 So, she was really happy.

00:46:41.440 And so, we were really caught off guard by the whole thing.

00:46:44.040 And the way there, it was very quiet.

00:46:46.360 We were just in a hurry to get there.

00:46:48.240 And the whole time, just wondering where all this came from so quickly.

00:46:53.180 You know, how did we go from zero to CPS at our house, and now we're on the way to the hospital.

00:46:57.500 So, now you also don't know, like this fantasy that came out about the ibuprofen and the toilet bowl cleaner.

00:47:03.440 So, you have no idea how far she's taken multiple fantasies in her imagination, right?

00:47:10.040 Because this is what happens to people who wander off track, you know, as they start dwelling on fantasies and spend hours on them or hundreds of hours on them and develop a very elaborated alternative world or multiple alternative worlds.

00:47:29.040 And so, God only knows where the story of the ibuprofen and the toilet bowl cleaner came out.

00:47:35.720 You know, because you made reference earlier to the fact that she had shared some fantasies online with her online crowd, right?

00:47:43.420 About having a twin brother.

00:47:44.880 And, like, you just have no idea how much of that dreamlike world she's allowing to occupy her imagination.

00:47:54.480 Right.

00:47:54.860 Because it's surprising, eh?

00:47:56.380 Because you say, well, you were having a perfectly, as far as you could tell, a perfectly normal day, a happy day even.

00:48:02.100 She got a new puppy, and yet as soon as she talks to the social worker, there's this immediate fantasy of 40 ibuprofen and toilet bowl.

00:48:08.860 I mean, that's a dramatic fantasy, right?

00:48:10.740 I mean, killing yourself is one thing, but killing yourself with ibuprofen and toilet bowl cleaner, that's pretty bloody brutal.

00:48:17.220 Okay, so you're on the way to the hospital, you don't know what's going on, the social worker is with you.

00:48:22.580 What happens when you get to the hospital?

00:48:23.760 So, we get to the hospital, and they right away hook her up, EKGs, blood work, you know, the whole gambit, and we're totally fine with that.

00:48:29.640 And right away, she says, I'm transgender, and my parents don't accept me, and everyone here needs to call me Leo.

00:48:36.340 And the whole room was just kind of like crickets, like no one really said anything.

00:48:40.980 And so, Todd and I stepped up, and we said, you know, she's done this in the past, we're not okay with this.

00:48:46.300 So, she picked the worst possible moment to announce that.

00:48:49.480 Yes.

00:48:50.060 Right, especially to announce the fact that you guys don't accept her.

00:48:53.520 Right, so now she's really playing with fire.

00:48:56.460 Yeah.

00:48:56.720 Like, seriously playing with fire.

00:48:58.700 And so, our reaction was, you know, she's done this before, we're not okay with it, you need to address her by her birth name, and, you know, her regular pronouns.

00:49:09.040 And that's what you told the people at the hospital.

00:49:10.740 That's what we told them right off the bat.

00:49:12.200 We said, we're not okay with this, you need to just not call her Leo, her name is, you know, Jennifer, we'd like you to call her Jennifer, that's her birth name.

00:49:19.960 And we all need to get her treated and move on with what needs to be done now, was our attitude.

00:49:25.220 And so-

00:49:25.680 How many people are you telling this to?

00:49:27.300 The whole emergency room crew, there were probably five people in the room, plus the social worker, plus us.

00:49:31.440 Now, do you know, did you know then, or do you know in retrospect, how many of them, so to speak, were on your side, and how many of them were on your daughter's side?

00:49:40.860 Because, you know, increasingly in institutions, if a child goes into an institution and makes a claim like that, the hospitals, many hospitals now, and many organizations are tilted, even formally, so that they're required to take the side of the child.

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00:51:12.340 Correct, and that is what happened.

00:51:16.900 That is what happened.

00:51:17.600 That is what happened.

00:51:18.240 Jesus.

00:51:19.060 So we were at the hospital for five days.

00:51:22.400 Five days.

00:51:23.540 Yeah, so we knew, they said the three-day hold, when someone tries to commit suicide or says they're going to,

00:51:29.380 then they automatically go on a three-day hold.

00:51:31.100 And we understood that, and we were like, okay.

00:51:32.580 So the whole time, I'm going to the hospital for five, six hours a day because I don't, her birth mother abandoned her.

00:51:40.220 And even, I'm her primary mother figure now.

00:51:42.380 And I don't want her to feel like, just because you're acting up and you're being bad, we're going to abandon you.

00:51:48.420 That's not how life works.

00:51:50.140 You know, yeah, I'm not happy I have to sit down here all day long, but this is the way that life is and family is.

00:51:56.520 So I'm down there every day for five, six hours a day.

00:51:59.520 And at this point, the hospital crew totally turns against me.

00:52:04.000 So they start calling her Leo.

00:52:05.480 And when I say, hey, that's not her name.

00:52:07.520 I want you to call her by birth name.

00:52:09.300 You know, I'm getting a lot of rolling their eyes and sighing.

00:52:12.980 Yeah, that's not good.

00:52:13.960 That's the best predictor of divorce in married couples who are seeking counseling, eye-rolling.

00:52:20.180 Yeah, well, it's a sign of contempt.

00:52:22.000 It's not good.

00:52:23.240 It's not good.

00:52:23.960 So if that's the sort of response you were getting, that was definitely indicative of the fact that you were now put in the

00:52:29.260 unacceptable mother camp.

00:52:31.060 Absolutely.

00:52:31.820 And so, right, and then, so, almost right away, there was one aide that sat outside her door,

00:52:37.580 because now she's on 24-hour supervision.

00:52:39.420 So she's in the door, and the aide sits about, like, right there in that doorway, away from her, just to watch her.

00:52:44.900 Right, so she's getting a lot of attention.

00:52:47.120 A lot of attention.

00:52:47.400 So our daughter's in the middle.

00:52:49.120 Right.

00:52:49.560 And then I'm kind of on the other side of the room there.

00:52:51.900 So right away, the aide starts saying things to her about how this particular aide herself is non-binary and is going to go have top surgery.

00:53:00.080 Oh, boy.

00:53:00.840 And I'm like, hey, you know what?

00:53:01.960 You need to shut this down.

00:53:03.120 Like, this is not okay.

00:53:04.320 So I stayed calm because I felt like they were trying to bait me into a fight, and then they could look and turn around and say, look at these, look at how these parents are.

00:53:12.120 That's a typical tactic, absolutely typical tactic.

00:53:15.060 It's part of that provocativeness is right to poke and poke and poke and poke and poke and wait for an explosion, and then to say, well, I knew that you were the sort of person who would explode.

00:53:25.260 Right, and I felt like that's what was happening to us.

00:53:27.760 So Todd and I stayed very calm, and then you lose when you stay too calm because then they're like, well, now you're too calm.

00:53:34.380 No, no, the whole point of people who are manipulative like that, the whole game is to put you in a position where no matter what you do, you're wrong, and you're wrong and bad, and they're right and good.

00:53:48.380 That's the game, right?

00:53:49.920 And what it costs you, that's irrelevant.

00:53:51.980 It's completely irrelevant.

00:53:52.900 In fact, there's more and more studies of people who behave in this way because you get a kind of narcissistic manipulativeness, but that slides very rapidly into sadism.

00:54:06.300 And so not only do they want to be right and good at your expense, but if you suffer as a consequence, so much the better.

00:54:16.360 Right.

00:54:16.600 Right, so, and if your daughter happens to have to be dragged along for the ride, well, they're proving their moral superiority.

00:54:22.740 They're okay with that, yeah.

00:54:23.340 No, they're more than okay with that.

00:54:25.280 Mm-hmm.

00:54:25.560 That's just part of the fun.

00:54:27.420 So, oh yeah.

00:54:28.480 All right, so now there's five days in the hospital.

00:54:31.200 Your daughter's getting a lot of attention.

00:54:32.680 They put an aide in there who's going to be extraordinarily attentive to all of her whims, right?

00:54:38.460 Correct.

00:54:38.880 There's one thing that's really important here, too, during this.

00:54:41.780 To me, it's the biggest thing, is that right immediately, I've never heard our daughter ever talk about another state before.

00:54:53.460 And there was talk about Wyoming.

00:54:55.340 And then they said there are different facilities that she could be sent to.

00:55:00.780 Almost all of them are in Montana, but there's one in Wyoming.

00:55:03.940 But there was almost an unspoken language going on between our daughter and the nurse.

00:55:10.060 What are the facilities that she's going to be sent to, and why does that emerge as a discussion?

00:55:14.160 They said she needed acute psychiatric care because of the statement she was making about killing herself.

00:55:20.360 And we were like, okay.

00:55:21.580 And they said it would be inpatient.

00:55:23.640 Oh, God.

00:55:24.940 So, we're saying, okay, if this is what needs to happen to help her, okay, let's get this done.

00:55:30.980 So, we were told there were six facilities in the state of Montana.

00:55:33.600 And like Todd said, that one, they started talking about Wyoming kind of off to the side.

00:55:38.800 And it was kind of like a secret language, if that makes sense, between our daughter.

00:55:44.700 Like an in-joke.

00:55:45.640 Well, they said it like this.

00:55:47.700 Because right away, while they're talking, I was just listening.

00:55:51.080 And I went right to my phone and good old Google.

00:55:53.460 Went to Google, what's different about Wyoming?

00:55:55.700 And they show the map of Idaho, Montana, the Dakotas.

00:55:59.080 They all have laws banning transgender care.

00:56:04.100 Wyoming does not.

00:56:05.180 They just lost it on that battle.

00:56:07.440 And the centerpiece of that is Casper.

00:56:10.360 Well, and of course, lurking behind all this is your daughter's unwillingness in all likelihood to go to high school.

00:56:18.020 Mm-hmm.

00:56:18.500 Yeah.

00:56:18.840 Right?

00:56:19.240 Because this gives her an out.

00:56:20.700 Jesus.

00:56:21.400 Yep.

00:56:21.640 Terrible.

00:56:22.360 Terrible, terrible.

00:56:23.500 At that point, like Todd said, he had his phone.

00:56:26.960 We looked up Wyoming, and we said to the doctor and the social worker outside the room, because I was very careful not to have these conversations in front of her, because I know she uses this information to be manipulative and get what she wants.

00:56:38.700 So outside the room, we had a conversation, and I said, you know, we're not okay with Wyoming, and here's why.

00:56:43.740 And tell me, if she were to go to Wyoming, what would be our rights?

00:56:47.000 What's protecting us?

00:56:47.960 What's protecting her?

00:56:49.640 When someone goes to inpatient care, I was like, what's expected?

00:56:52.460 Are we supposed to visit?

00:56:53.420 Are you supposed to visit weekly?

00:56:54.500 And how would we get from, I mean, we could drive, but we'd have to put our whole business on hold and drive the eight hours to Wyoming, and is this expected of us?

00:57:03.860 You know, like, help me out here.

00:57:04.960 Like, tell me what's supposed to happen.

00:57:07.480 And I'll never forget our CPS worker said to me, she said, oh, don't worry about Wyoming.

00:57:12.860 The chances of that happening are so slim, and we'll all have a conversation and work through it together if that's what's on the table.

00:57:19.280 Yeah, and when she's, when that got said, you could see immediate discomfort in our daughter, like she had just been betrayed, and you could see almost a, we're just telling your parents, that isn't what they said, but that's what the body language is.

00:57:33.460 I see.

00:57:34.040 So the notion here is that there's covert, there's covert planning going on behind the scenes.

00:57:39.060 Yeah, and I told her that right away when we left.

00:57:40.880 Like I said, I said, they are going to send her to Wyoming, that's what I said.

00:57:44.320 So five days go by because they couldn't find placement, and they were having trouble.

00:57:50.880 On August 22nd, we were told that she was next in line for a bed at a facility in Billings.

00:57:56.200 So when we left the hospital that day, we were thinking, okay, well, she's going to go to this Billings inpatient psychiatric care, and that's four hours from us.

00:58:04.560 So if we're expected to visit or take things down there.

00:58:06.880 Okay, so let me ask you about this, because as far as, as far as you guys are concerned, your daughter, apart from her texts, was not showing any signs of suicidality, right?

00:58:21.680 No, no, she never has.

00:58:23.520 She's not suicidal.

00:58:24.440 Right.

00:58:24.580 As a matter of fact, she's always been like, I can't believe me.

00:58:27.360 Any self-harm, any cutting, anything like that?

00:58:29.020 No, she had one incident, and CPS jumped on this incident, where I walked in her room, and she had a scratch on her arm.

00:58:35.660 And she had a counseling appointment the next day, and I was like, did you scratch yourself?

00:58:39.800 Did you do that?

00:58:40.600 Yeah.

00:58:40.920 And she tried to tell me, oh, no, the cat did it.

00:58:43.360 And I was like, okay, but I took a picture of it anyways, and to this day, I have that picture, and I sent it to her counselor, because she was going to counseling the next day.

00:58:50.920 And I said, I just found this on Jennifer's arm.

00:58:53.620 What should I do?

00:58:55.220 How should I act?

00:58:56.140 Should I be concerned?

00:58:57.060 Do I punish her?

00:58:57.820 Like, what does someone do in this situation?

00:58:59.960 And he said, thanks for sharing it with me.

00:59:02.760 I will review it with her tomorrow in counseling.

00:59:04.840 But again, it was a scratch.

00:59:06.480 It wasn't a big, bloody gash.

00:59:07.460 Okay, but there's no pattern here.

00:59:08.740 No, none at all.

00:59:09.360 Okay, now, but now, despite the fact that she's not showing, she's not depressed, she's not suicidal, as far as you guys can tell, she claimed that she was, she's acting out, that's for sure.

00:59:21.840 But now the psychiatric community has decided that she's in such a dire condition that she needs inpatient treatment for her suicidality.

00:59:29.700 Right now, they're undoubtedly covering their ass, so to speak, and going by the book.

00:59:34.460 And they've also decided that you're evil parents in the offing.

00:59:38.820 But what are you thinking about, given that your daughter is now being pulled into the, well, into the workings of this system?

00:59:46.940 I mean, obviously, you want to be cooperative, so, but what do you, and you're concerned, obviously, that there's maneuvering going on behind the scenes.

00:59:54.360 What are your thoughts in this situation?

00:59:57.100 I thought the one thing that could come out of this that might be good, I said, now that she's in a bubble with them, the same problem we were just having, they're about to get the focus of it.

01:00:08.000 They're going to start seeing what we see, and they did.

01:00:10.260 Right away, CPS.

01:00:11.340 And we were hoping that we could get a diagnosis based on that, you know, based on if she goes in their care and starts telling these crazy lies and stuff.

01:00:19.460 I see, I see, I see.

01:00:20.160 That we would get some kind of diagnosis of what was going on with her.

01:00:23.000 Yeah, CPS, during that exact time, CPS even called and demanded that we turn over her cancer treatment records.

01:00:30.120 We said she never had cancer.

01:00:32.560 And then CPS.

01:00:33.320 Did they ever offer you a diagnosis that was associated with her tendency to lie?

01:00:37.380 Never.

01:00:37.900 Never.

01:00:38.240 The diagnosis we've been given has been ADHD, PTS.

01:00:42.460 There are, I can't tell you, because you're not my clients, but there are diagnoses that are specific to the behaviors that she's manifested that you should have been told about.

01:00:50.360 And that's what I was thinking.

01:00:51.840 Like, there has to be.

01:00:52.840 There definitely, it's clear.

01:00:54.500 So, if they had known what they were doing and being paying attention, you would have received a diagnosis.

01:00:59.600 Yeah.

01:00:59.700 Because, like, I've been building it in the back of my mind as you guys have been telling me the story.

01:01:04.280 And to this day, we still don't have a diagnosis on the lying.

01:01:06.960 They just said, well, sometimes she tells stories.

01:01:09.100 I'm like, not like this.

01:01:10.380 That's so appalling.

01:01:12.040 Yeah, this is not someone who sometimes tells stories.

01:01:14.240 These are outrageous things.

01:01:15.900 Like a ghost hovering over her bed to the cancer thing.

01:01:21.200 And then it was a sister that died.

01:01:23.060 It was one thing after another.

01:01:24.480 Okay.

01:01:24.820 Yeah.

01:01:24.980 So, we get to a point where, August 22nd, they told us she was next in line for a bed in Wyoming.

01:01:30.880 Or, I'm sorry, in Montana.

01:01:32.160 Billings.

01:01:32.520 Billings.

01:01:32.660 And so, we were like, okay.

01:01:34.180 So, we leave the hospital.

01:01:35.240 We go to dinner that night.

01:01:36.640 And then again, about 7, 38 o'clock, the hospital calls us.

01:01:39.540 And it was a doctor from the hospital.

01:01:40.880 And he said, a bed has opened up in Wyoming and she needs to go.

01:01:45.520 And we were like, we were just, what?

01:01:48.940 You know, how did this happen?

01:01:50.440 We were told Billings earlier today.

01:01:52.760 Yeah, there's nothing worse than being proved right when you're apprehensive.

01:01:56.460 Yeah.

01:01:56.580 Okay, so now it's Wyoming, eh?

01:01:58.420 And so, he said, well, she has to go.

01:02:00.700 We're not doing her any good here.

01:02:02.100 She can't just sit here forever.

01:02:03.640 And I said, I understand that.

01:02:04.960 But we were told she was next in line for a bed in Billings.

01:02:07.700 We thought we had just a little bit of time.

01:02:10.100 And so, the call ended.

01:02:11.720 And within 10 minutes, CPS showed up at our house.

01:02:14.760 With a police officer and removed her from our care.

01:02:17.680 They gave us paperwork saying that we were unwilling or unable to provide medical care for her.

01:02:22.860 And that's not true at all.

01:02:25.400 And so, what, okay, so what did you make of that?

01:02:29.100 It said child neglect.

01:02:30.620 They're saying that that act of not providing or not being able, willing and able to provide medical.

01:02:37.120 Okay, now, was that based on your objection to her being moved to Wyoming?

01:02:41.280 Yeah, only that.

01:02:41.940 She had only hit.

01:02:42.560 I see.

01:02:42.880 Because, so they told you she was going to Billings.

01:02:45.220 Then they told you she was going to Wyoming.

01:02:47.100 You weren't very happy about that.

01:02:48.520 And then they used that as evidence that you weren't willing to provide her with appropriate care.

01:02:52.460 And that's when they took her from you.

01:02:53.840 Correct.

01:02:54.220 Exactly.

01:02:54.680 They called it recommended.

01:02:56.640 We were declining her recommended health.

01:02:58.760 Right.

01:02:59.340 That's the way they worded that.

01:03:01.080 Oh, yes.

01:03:01.680 Oh, man.

01:03:02.400 So, there's a great setup for you.

01:03:05.080 So, this was pre-planned.

01:03:06.620 She was going to Wyoming.

01:03:07.340 Oh, absolutely.

01:03:08.000 You know why it was pre-planned?

01:03:09.280 Jesus.

01:03:09.680 Because they didn't go through the court.

01:03:11.360 All that was pre-printed.

01:03:13.560 It was, they got there in 10 minutes.

01:03:15.080 10 minutes.

01:03:15.440 And we got served two weeks later.

01:03:16.480 I mean, we live in a small town, but it's not that small.

01:03:18.500 You know, I mean, 10 minutes from the time that we got off the phone to the time that you arrived at my house with the police.

01:03:24.560 And they said, you guys can't talk to her again until we say.

01:03:27.180 You can't talk to her.

01:03:28.060 You can't call her.

01:03:28.740 You can't see her.

01:03:29.740 Yeah.

01:03:29.980 And how old is she at this point?

01:03:31.340 14.

01:03:31.660 14.

01:03:32.460 Oh, my God.

01:03:33.400 So, now she's fallen completely into the hands of the demented social workers.

01:03:37.420 Exactly.

01:03:38.080 So, then the next day, which was August 23rd, after they told us we couldn't see her or anything, they had somebody, an employee from Children's Services, transfer her to Wyoming.

01:03:47.980 But on the way there, she was allowed to stop.

01:03:50.600 Wyoming, yeah.

01:03:51.480 She was allowed to stop and visit her friends.

01:03:53.540 She was allowed to go to her summer job.

01:03:55.080 After we were told that we couldn't see her or speak to her, they made all these stops around town and visited with all these people before they left.

01:04:01.900 She could tell them that she was transgender, suicidal.

01:04:06.940 And her parents were abusing her.

01:04:09.140 And I'm like, I don't care what people think of me in the town, but she's a child.

01:04:14.100 I mean, they should have protected her.

01:04:15.680 What if, you know, when she's 20, she's over all of this and is in a different place in life, and now, what did you let her do?

01:04:22.760 You know, what just happened there?

01:04:25.420 So, we were pretty upset about that.

01:04:27.380 So, she goes to Wyoming.

01:04:28.400 Yeah, pretty upset.

01:04:29.440 I bet you were.

01:04:30.140 How upset?

01:04:31.240 Her dad.

01:04:32.520 Extremely.

01:04:33.100 They were just destroying, burning all of her bridges there.

01:04:35.960 And it's like they were intentionally just burning all the bridges to her family at the same time.

01:04:39.560 So, how are you making sense of this?

01:04:41.780 Because now—

01:04:42.400 We're not.

01:04:43.740 We're just totally kind of—we're mad.

01:04:46.560 We're upset.

01:04:47.480 You know, we're hurt.

01:04:48.600 Our daughter's just been ripped away from us.

01:04:50.580 Like, it was—our whole world was just kind of spinning.

01:04:54.080 Felt like we're up against the devil.

01:04:55.720 That's what it felt like.

01:04:56.680 Yeah, exactly.

01:04:57.860 That's the face of the devil.

01:04:58.920 That's what I thought.

01:04:59.660 Yeah.

01:05:00.100 That's what the devil is.

01:05:01.300 It was—

01:05:01.500 And so, okay.

01:05:02.520 So, why did you—why did you—why did it appear to you—why did those appear to be the relevant terms to you, do you think?

01:05:09.260 Because she's a child.

01:05:10.660 She's a child.

01:05:11.040 I thought when I was a child, I could not make any such decisions.

01:05:15.060 I'm glad my mom and dad were there to tell me no, you know, to keep me away from those kind of people.

01:05:20.080 Yeah, and that's particularly true when you're like 13 to 15, boy.

01:05:22.500 If you're able to—you can imagine staking your life on the stupidest decision you made when you were 13.

01:05:29.240 My God, you'd be in such terrible shape.

01:05:31.800 Absolutely.

01:05:32.460 Yeah.

01:05:32.760 And I couldn't believe that they could do these things.

01:05:35.100 That was so—we've never been involved in this system before.

01:05:38.980 We've never dealt with that.

01:05:40.080 Yeah, well, you were fortunate in that, boy.

01:05:43.820 Once you get your sleeve caught in the child welfare machine, you are in—you are in serious trouble.

01:05:50.760 Mm-hmm.

01:05:51.300 Yeah.

01:05:51.820 Now we know.

01:05:52.620 Yeah, yeah.

01:05:53.560 I can tell.

01:05:54.860 Okay, so now she's off—now, so you can see, too, they're letting her stop off with all her friends and to say goodbye.

01:06:02.500 They're showing her just how much they are on her side.

01:06:06.460 Yes.

01:06:06.760 Right, so now that's the substitution for the parents.

01:06:09.440 It's just like, well, your parents don't care for you.

01:06:11.720 They're abusing you.

01:06:12.900 Look at how nice we are to you.

01:06:14.640 We'll give you everything you could possibly want.

01:06:16.580 Exactly.

01:06:16.920 And more.

01:06:17.800 Oh, yeah.

01:06:18.400 One of the attorneys involved in our case said a smart thing.

01:06:21.960 He said, they took your daughter and they taught her how to weaponize the system.

01:06:25.840 And now, you know, you've got this super smart kid who has learned that she can get what she wants just by saying a few key words.

01:06:33.960 And what do you think?

01:06:35.240 Since August 18th, those are her key words.

01:06:37.920 I'll kill myself if you don't let me.

01:06:39.900 Yeah.

01:06:39.960 You know, I mean, she has, like, now she knows.

01:06:43.180 So how do you work around there and come back for that?

01:06:45.940 I don't know.

01:06:47.340 But she did go to Wyoming.

01:06:49.020 She was there for a month.

01:06:50.180 While she was in Wyoming, we were given very little information.

01:06:53.620 But we did email them constantly and say things like, we want to make sure she's not being called Leah.

01:06:58.300 We want to make sure you're not letting her live as a boy.

01:07:00.340 We're not okay with this.

01:07:01.300 Oh, yeah.

01:07:01.500 We want to make sure that you're not transitioning her and, you know, no men's products.

01:07:07.020 Because that was another thing.

01:07:07.700 At the first hospital, I started giving her men's hygiene products to use.

01:07:10.860 Even after I was like, no, I'll bring her stuff from home.

01:07:14.100 She doesn't need Old Spice.

01:07:15.560 You know, she needs.

01:07:16.760 And so.

01:07:17.840 So what were they doing and what were they telling you?

01:07:22.560 They told us that they're going to do what the patient needs them to do to get well.

01:07:26.580 They said therapeutically they had to meet her where she was.

01:07:29.320 And if she was a boy right now, they had to meet her as a boy.

01:07:32.000 And I was like, I'm not.

01:07:33.860 Yeah, well, they're basically.

01:07:35.520 It depends on the state.

01:07:36.860 But they were likely mandated by law to do that.

01:07:39.800 I mean, I know in Canada, for example, under the dictates of so-called gender affirming care,

01:07:45.420 that therapists are punished.

01:07:48.320 It's a punishable offense for a therapist not to affirm the stated gender of a minor.

01:07:53.480 Yeah.

01:07:53.680 Even if you had some, even if there were some sensible therapists there, and those are becoming

01:07:58.700 very hard to find, by the way, the probability that they would be able to go against her stated

01:08:04.840 wishes in an institutional setting, even if they thought they should, is low.

01:08:11.240 Right.

01:08:11.560 Because that's exactly what the, and these bills that ban so-called conversion therapy,

01:08:17.380 they're aimed precisely at ensuring that a child who's possessed by an evil whim,

01:08:23.320 as is the case in your daughter, and then being egged on by narcissistic and cowardly psychopaths,

01:08:29.060 the therapists are, and physicians for that matter, are required by law to continue with the lie.

01:08:35.700 Right.

01:08:36.500 And so everyone who's watching and listening should know that too.

01:08:39.000 So you bring your child who has gender dysphoria and associated conditions

01:08:44.780 to a therapist or a medical professional at your peril.

01:08:49.240 Right.

01:08:49.780 And theirs too.

01:08:50.880 And so what, I mean, what do you do?

01:08:52.720 How do you treat these kids?

01:08:54.760 But, I mean, so she stays in Wyoming for a month, then they bring her back to the state of Montana.

01:09:00.240 And at that point, she went into a group home called, it was run by an agency called Youth Dynamics.

01:09:06.000 Youth Dynamics.

01:09:06.940 Yep.

01:09:07.140 And at the group home, they socially transitioned her.

01:09:09.900 They allowed her to be called Leo, he, him.

01:09:12.440 And what had they done in Wyoming in that regard?

01:09:15.800 Were they-

01:09:16.340 Same thing.

01:09:16.500 Same thing.

01:09:17.000 So she's well on the pathway now.

01:09:19.160 So she's on the path now.

01:09:20.560 Right.

01:09:20.860 Now she's surrounded by people who are also bolstering her story that you guys aren't to be trusted,

01:09:26.800 that you've alienated her, that you likely abused her,

01:09:29.180 that the fact that you wouldn't go along with her true identity means that you're not to be trusted.

01:09:33.940 All of that.

01:09:34.660 Mm-hmm.

01:09:35.180 Yeah, yeah.

01:09:35.720 And so now that's where we have her.

01:09:38.380 She's very, very angry.

01:09:39.540 Yeah, I did.

01:09:41.340 You know, and more of the manipulation and the lies and stuff are coming up.

01:09:46.000 And what sort of lies are you seeing at that point?

01:09:49.620 They were actually, like we mentioned earlier, she had already turned their sights on them.

01:09:54.660 So CPS would call and say that your daughter, Jennifer, just told me off, just cussed me out on the phone.

01:10:00.580 And she said there's apparitions floating around and those kind of things.

01:10:05.600 The same stuff was starting all over.

01:10:07.400 And she had called CPS, had called, she said, you're in a cult and I'm never coming back to Glasgow because I'm not going to live in your cult.

01:10:13.360 And just more of what she was doing before, only on a bigger scale.

01:10:19.880 Extreme limit pushing.

01:10:20.780 Mm-hmm.

01:10:21.100 And one thing during both the Wyoming time, and at first it seemed like a coincidence, but it just kept going on and on.

01:10:27.340 We were given the wrong contact information to her where she was at in Wyoming, cut off, and every number we'd be given, we couldn't contact her.

01:10:34.860 And then when they moved her again, it was the same problem all over again.

01:10:37.620 That did happen.

01:10:38.280 It was strange.

01:10:38.860 Yeah, that's strange.

01:10:40.060 It was strange how we're given the wrong number everywhere.

01:10:42.700 Yeah, right, strange, absolutely.

01:10:45.080 That's exactly the kind of behind-the-scenes manipulation you'd expect from people who are narcissistic psychopaths.

01:10:51.240 Mm-hmm.

01:10:51.700 Yeah, God, man, brutal.

01:10:52.440 Even the court-appointed attorney's numbers we were given were completely wrong, and they gave them out-of-country phone numbers for her and I.

01:10:59.700 Yeah, it was a lot.

01:11:00.160 So they didn't even start interacting in it until weeks into it.

01:11:03.680 Okay, so she's in Wyoming for a month, then she comes back to Montana, and now she's in this group, you said-

01:11:09.680 She's in a group home.

01:11:10.540 And run by-

01:11:11.480 Youth Dynamics.

01:11:12.300 And so what are- and they're continuing with the transition.

01:11:15.420 And so what are you- I imagine you did some background research on that group.

01:11:19.440 What did you find out about them?

01:11:22.780 They're in a very woke area of our state.

01:11:26.480 You know, Montana's pretty broken up.

01:11:28.320 Yeah.

01:11:28.980 But the area that they are is particularly woke.

01:11:31.740 Okay, and what do you mean by that exactly, and how did you know that?

01:11:35.140 Well, they allowed- they believe that you can transfer your gender when you want.

01:11:40.060 Like, today I want to be a girl.

01:11:41.180 Oh, tomorrow I'm going to be a boy, so call me this name.

01:11:43.660 And then some of the other things that they believe in and that they kind of tout are just not our beliefs.

01:11:50.980 Okay, well, we can leave it at that.

01:11:52.580 That's fine.

01:11:53.180 Yeah.

01:11:53.320 That's fine.

01:11:54.220 And so in this group home, she's allowed a 100% socially transition.

01:11:58.220 She is called Leo.

01:11:59.860 She's been given a chest binder.

01:12:01.740 Oh, yeah.

01:12:02.300 She's allowed to wear men's clothes straight down to the boxer shorts.

01:12:06.360 I mean, everything.

01:12:07.860 Yeah.

01:12:08.300 And so we would visit down there.

01:12:09.580 And she's 14.

01:12:10.200 She's 14.

01:12:10.980 She shaved her head, so she had like this really masculine, you know, haircut.

01:12:14.600 But at the school program, which was run by an agency called New Day, she was allowed to be in all the boys' groups and present herself as a boy at school.

01:12:25.300 Right.

01:12:25.620 Now she's in a different school, right?

01:12:27.160 And how's, do you have any idea how life at that school is working out for her?

01:12:32.280 Well, we went down there together to see her, and everything was great.

01:12:38.500 The visit was great.

01:12:39.820 She seemed excited about coming home.

01:12:41.740 Like, when can she come home?

01:12:43.140 The visit was fantastic.

01:12:45.340 However, she was.

01:12:47.900 You can see being socially transitioned.

01:12:50.460 But pieces of who she really was was apparent.

01:12:55.720 Like, you could tell she missed being with us.

01:12:57.980 Okay, so you went to visit her when she was still in the group home?

01:13:00.220 Twice.

01:13:00.620 And the second time, I went for a long walk with her in the back, and she said she don't know why she tells these lies.

01:13:08.460 She goes, I can't wait to come home.

01:13:10.100 And it was, I was almost in tears.

01:13:11.920 I was.

01:13:12.380 I was crying.

01:13:13.400 She said, I can't wait.

01:13:15.180 I want to come home.

01:13:16.200 I'm so sorry for the problem.

01:13:17.680 I'll never do these things again.

01:13:19.060 Yeah, right, right.

01:13:19.380 And I promised her that.

01:13:20.940 Well, you can imagine that there's a part of her, you know, imagine her split in some ways into two parts.

01:13:26.560 And so there's the part that's new that's excited about her new identity and attracting all this attention and toying with this idea and these fantasies.

01:13:35.820 So that's the fantasy world.

01:13:37.420 And then there's the true part of her that's, like, pining like mad for her actual life and missing.

01:13:43.480 I mean, how long has she been away from you guys now?

01:13:45.780 At that, the.

01:13:47.020 August, we're looking at, like, October, November.

01:13:50.840 Right, so number of months.

01:13:52.200 And she's 14.

01:13:52.960 And so all of this hospitalization, everything, descended on her with the same rapidity that it descended on you with even more disruption.

01:14:02.920 Because at least you guys got to go home and you had each other.

01:14:05.600 And all of a sudden, she's like in, she's in serious no man's land.

01:14:09.360 And we knew we were in trouble, though, when we went to see her because it went so good.

01:14:13.780 The place where she was being housed at, they were all excited how good everything just went again.

01:14:19.260 And we were supposed to come back and take her to dinner that night.

01:14:23.040 So we were all excited about that.

01:14:24.680 And she was excited.

01:14:25.860 And then they called us about an hour before that and said, CPS in Glasgow called.

01:14:30.560 And they said, absolutely not.

01:14:31.480 The parents are not allowed to be alone with her.

01:14:34.760 Wow.

01:14:35.000 And we're like, wow.

01:14:35.620 How the hell did they find out?

01:14:36.960 Every time things would be where she wanted to come back home and things were good, CPS would step in and block it.

01:14:42.080 Do you have any idea who was doing that and why?

01:14:44.260 The counselor.

01:14:44.900 Yeah.

01:14:45.460 The counselor, the one that had come to your house?

01:14:47.180 The one at the group home.

01:14:50.500 So in the group home, they have like an in-house counselor that she saw.

01:14:54.320 So you think that counselor was contacting CPS?

01:14:57.040 Yes.

01:14:57.580 Absolutely.

01:14:57.980 Because he was saying, you know, when the parents are here, they will only call her Jennifer.

01:15:02.780 They won't call her Leo.

01:15:03.700 Oh, yeah.

01:15:04.260 Yeah.

01:15:04.500 And that you could tell it was upsetting those people.

01:15:08.760 There's a special place in hell for him.

01:15:10.220 Yeah.

01:15:10.500 Yeah.

01:15:11.000 So you could tell that they were not happy with us, even though we were very polite to them.

01:15:15.460 But we wouldn't buy into it, you know.

01:15:17.140 We'd be like, okay, Jennifer, show us your room.

01:15:19.380 Okay, Jennifer, let's look at not Leo.

01:15:21.780 We would never say Leo, you know.

01:15:23.720 And I even told her, I'm like, the haircut looks really masculine.

01:15:27.540 Is that the look you were going for?

01:15:29.480 And she was kind of like, mm, you know.

01:15:32.520 So things like that continue to go on.

01:15:36.340 Okay.

01:15:36.740 Okay.

01:15:37.140 So, all right.

01:15:37.940 So now she's in the group home, and hypothetically, she's going to come home.

01:15:41.000 What does happen?

01:15:42.340 So during this whole time, we're having monthly court meetings to see, so the judge could just

01:15:48.360 see where we're at, you know, where CPS was at with everything.

01:15:51.840 And everyone has a lawyer.

01:15:53.360 Todd had a lawyer.

01:15:54.240 I had a lawyer assigned to me.

01:15:55.840 Our daughter has a lawyer assigned to her.

01:15:57.600 CPS has a lawyer.

01:15:58.720 Then there's a CASA guardian.

01:15:59.900 There's all these people.

01:16:01.100 And so almost every court thing was about a half hour long.

01:16:04.600 And during that, they all kind of talked to each other, you know.

01:16:07.200 I'm like, are we going to get to the point here?

01:16:09.260 Like, shouldn't we be talking about our daughter and what's going on with her?

01:16:12.580 Not what you did last weekend, because I don't care, you know.

01:16:15.580 And so, finally, our public defenders told us, just keep your head down, play nice.

01:16:21.780 And at the end of this group home program, which is about six months, you'll have your

01:16:25.540 daughter back in your care.

01:16:27.140 Yeah.

01:16:27.540 And then you can go on with your life.

01:16:29.000 So we were like, okay.

01:16:30.080 Well, it all came to a head because finally we're like, no, we're not okay with this.

01:16:34.660 We don't want to play nice anymore.

01:16:36.120 We don't want to do any of these things anymore.

01:16:39.200 And at that point, this was on January, I believe it was January 9th.

01:16:43.380 And the guardian came over?

01:16:43.980 Yeah, the 19th.

01:16:45.000 Well, the guardian came over in October.

01:16:46.420 But on January 19th, basically, CPS wanted to step out of the case and place our daughter

01:16:53.100 with her birth mother, who now lives in Canada, with her new husband.

01:16:56.420 Probably not, probably important not to skip past the guardian coming in October.

01:17:00.260 Yeah.

01:17:00.360 The reason that's important is that's when we knew what the game was.

01:17:03.440 Okay, the guardian, tell me about the guardian.

01:17:05.340 The guardian came to our house.

01:17:07.200 It was a very pleasant meeting.

01:17:08.560 She was...

01:17:09.440 And who is this guardian?

01:17:10.760 State-appointed guardian of your child.

01:17:13.000 Yeah.

01:17:13.500 Okay, she comes to meet with you.

01:17:15.020 Mm-hmm.

01:17:15.520 Okay.

01:17:16.060 Meeting went great.

01:17:17.080 We sat in the kitchen, visited.

01:17:18.740 Everything was great.

01:17:19.960 Very friendly.

01:17:20.980 Very comfortable with her.

01:17:22.420 And when we're walking out, she stopped and she said, I need to know what's this

01:17:26.280 going to look like you raising, having a transgender child.

01:17:29.960 Yeah.

01:17:30.280 Are you going to...

01:17:32.160 If you're not going to agree to call her by her preferred pronouns and raise her as

01:17:36.720 a boy, then you're not going to like what I have to say in court.

01:17:40.780 Yeah.

01:17:41.000 That's what she said.

01:17:41.480 That was her party words.

01:17:42.580 So much for the niceness.

01:17:44.640 Yeah.

01:17:45.000 I was blown away.

01:17:46.520 Oh, yeah.

01:17:46.540 Now that figures.

01:17:47.280 That's just exactly perfect.

01:17:47.920 And she even brought us an article that said how we should be supportive.

01:17:52.560 Like, we should use the pronouns that she wants.

01:17:54.680 And I was like, no.

01:17:55.580 I said, I don't need your article.

01:17:57.280 We're good.

01:17:57.860 Pamphlets on how to raise a transgender child, the whole bit.

01:18:00.820 No, no.

01:18:01.240 You guys were...

01:18:02.060 No.

01:18:02.900 You were either going to go along with the lie or you were going to get, like, raked

01:18:06.020 over the coals.

01:18:06.720 Yeah.

01:18:07.060 Right.

01:18:07.340 That was the game.

01:18:08.280 And all the niceness is there just so the people who are doing it don't have to face

01:18:12.440 who they actually are.

01:18:13.820 Yes.

01:18:14.120 Yes.

01:18:14.620 So what happened was we released our video that was 17 minutes long saying, this is what

01:18:19.580 we've gone through with the system.

01:18:21.080 Okay.

01:18:21.420 Tell me about that.

01:18:22.300 When did you do that?

01:18:23.700 January 17th.

01:18:25.440 Okay.

01:18:25.960 You released it where?

01:18:27.420 I released it on YouTube.

01:18:29.880 And Facebook.

01:18:30.560 And Facebook.

01:18:30.900 Okay.

01:18:31.180 So what made you decide to do that?

01:18:33.120 We had no choice.

01:18:34.020 We're at the end of our line.

01:18:35.160 I see.

01:18:35.560 You transitioned our daughter.

01:18:37.000 You're destroying our lives.

01:18:37.920 So you thought, we're just going to make everything transparent and public and we're going

01:18:41.740 to take our chances.

01:18:42.760 Because everything that we've talked about so far, we were not allowed to even breathe

01:18:47.760 a word of in court.

01:18:48.820 Everything that's been said so far, they-

01:18:50.900 What do you mean you weren't allowed to?

01:18:52.640 Our, our, anything, we would tell the court appointed attorneys what we just told you and

01:18:57.260 we've talked about so far and none of it would come out in court.

01:19:01.280 We have no idea.

01:19:02.460 We'd have to sit there and just shut up.

01:19:04.480 They would talk and none of it would ever come out.

01:19:07.220 How did you control your temper?

01:19:08.600 Or, um, it was more shock all the time.

01:19:11.220 Oh, yeah.

01:19:11.740 I was pinching him under the table.

01:19:13.400 Well, no, but I'm getting serious about this.

01:19:15.500 I'm married well.

01:19:16.340 I'm married well.

01:19:17.080 That's hard.

01:19:18.840 Yeah.

01:19:19.320 She keeps me out.

01:19:20.020 She, but it was hard.

01:19:20.860 Well, you said, no, I think, I think you, I think your answer is good that you were so

01:19:24.380 shocked that, that, that you didn't actually know what to do.

01:19:27.180 Well, I'm sure that's true.

01:19:28.900 Absolutely.

01:19:29.520 You think this is like being in a movie.

01:19:31.420 Right.

01:19:31.640 Right.

01:19:32.080 And we couldn't believe that they would sit there and say things that were completely

01:19:35.860 the opposite of the truth.

01:19:37.780 And even things we would point out saying, okay, this is a outright lie.

01:19:42.320 You have this completely backwards.

01:19:43.520 And they say, we know it can't be changed though.

01:19:46.360 That was their.

01:19:47.560 Wow.

01:19:47.920 For instance, like on the affidavit, they submitted an affidavit to court and it says,

01:19:53.800 you know, we weren't providing housing, clothing, food, and all this stuff.

01:19:57.680 And we said, Hey, you were at our house.

01:19:59.960 And in this report over here that you made says our house was clean, well-stocked and

01:20:03.480 no dangers.

01:20:04.280 We were told, Oh, well, that's a template that we use for affidavits.

01:20:08.120 So just ignore that part.

01:20:09.780 Oh, I see.

01:20:10.600 Oh, that's very convenient for you guys.

01:20:12.560 But it's listed.

01:20:13.620 It's in the record.

01:20:16.080 Anybody, if you saw that, you, how would you know?

01:20:19.040 I mean, you, it looks like we're these terrible people who live in squalor and run like a meth

01:20:23.800 den or something, you know, with this poor kid in it.

01:20:26.740 And that's not true at all.

01:20:28.140 Wow.

01:20:28.360 Wow.

01:20:29.060 Okay.

01:20:29.480 Okay.

01:20:29.780 So you've had enough by January 19th.

01:20:32.480 I bet you've had January 17th.

01:20:34.300 You released a 17 minute video on YouTube.

01:20:36.880 We did.

01:20:37.140 What do you, you, you tell?

01:20:39.040 We tell our story.

01:20:39.780 In very good case.

01:20:40.800 We don't use any names.

01:20:42.840 None of that at all.

01:20:44.580 Yep.

01:20:45.080 We didn't mention anybody's name.

01:20:46.160 And where did you release it?

01:20:47.440 I put it on YouTube as well as Facebook.

01:20:50.020 On your, just on your social media?

01:20:52.380 Yes.

01:20:52.640 I see.

01:20:53.240 So it was just a local thing, essentially.

01:20:55.320 And what happened?

01:20:56.440 It started to catch fire.

01:20:58.300 And the next, so that was on 17th.

01:21:01.520 On the 18th, our daughter's attorney filed a motion in court that said they have to take

01:21:07.700 their video down and they're not allowed to talk about anything.

01:21:10.340 Yes.

01:21:10.800 And so this was on the 18th.

01:21:12.220 And so I was like, okay, I see your motion.

01:21:15.380 They emailed it to me.

01:21:16.320 So I was like, I don't know.

01:21:17.240 How serious do I take this?

01:21:18.380 I don't know.

01:21:19.280 So on the 19th, we go to court and the judge-

01:21:23.480 For this?

01:21:24.040 Yes.

01:21:24.320 Yeah.

01:21:24.620 For this.

01:21:24.840 So it's that fast.

01:21:26.140 Two days later.

01:21:27.180 And so the court system can move pretty quickly when they need to.

01:21:29.900 When they want to.

01:21:30.620 But before, this is an important lead up to, there's plenty of witnesses to this too.

01:21:35.180 And we were told prior to that, the purpose of this is the judge is going to put you in

01:21:40.100 your place.

01:21:41.060 The attorney said that to us about eight times.

01:21:43.820 Her attorney?

01:21:45.500 Our public defense.

01:21:46.420 Yeah, they said-

01:21:47.240 They said, you've really made this judge mad.

01:21:49.040 She's going to put you in your place.

01:21:50.580 Over and over.

01:21:51.360 Yeah, over and over.

01:21:52.260 She's going to really come at you.

01:21:54.460 You shouldn't have done that.

01:21:55.900 We're glad you did in one way, guys.

01:21:57.720 But on the other way, you really shouldn't have done that in the video.

01:22:01.220 And so when we got to court on the 19th, CPS wanted out of the case.

01:22:06.200 They wanted to place Jennifer with her birth mother in Canada.

01:22:10.040 And they just wanted-

01:22:10.460 Why did they want out of the case?

01:22:12.100 It was getting too hot?

01:22:13.220 I think it's getting too much attention and too hot.

01:22:15.920 I see.

01:22:16.420 So it's just time to foister off somewhere else.

01:22:18.800 Yes.

01:22:19.440 So what they did was, the judge and the attorneys intervened and they said, well, what have you

01:22:25.480 done to investigate this mom in Canada who hasn't been with this child in seven years?

01:22:29.440 Hasn't really spoke to her?

01:22:30.860 Hasn't seen her?

01:22:32.420 How have you done?

01:22:33.280 And they said, well, we got a background checked.

01:22:35.260 So then they were like, okay, well, she's in Kitchener, Ontario.

01:22:39.040 So in the other providences, if she got in trouble, would it show in Kitchener?

01:22:42.360 And they're like, probably not.

01:22:44.440 So the judge was like, I want you to do more looking into the birth mom and making sure

01:22:49.920 it's an appropriate step.

01:22:50.800 Okay.

01:22:51.040 So let me separate these.

01:22:52.360 You have a court case for January 19th about your video.

01:22:57.320 This case that you're referring to is separate from that?

01:23:00.520 Nope.

01:23:00.800 It all happened on the same day.

01:23:01.740 Or it happened at the same time.

01:23:02.440 Oh, I see.

01:23:03.020 Okay.

01:23:03.260 Okay.

01:23:04.100 So the judge was going to put you in your place, but also was attending to the safety

01:23:10.300 of your daughter in relationship to this transfer.

01:23:13.660 Okay.

01:23:14.240 Okay.

01:23:14.480 Got it.

01:23:14.960 Got it.

01:23:15.140 So it was like a dual.

01:23:16.540 She addressed a couple issues in that.

01:23:18.620 I see.

01:23:19.100 And she told us that day, the judge said that we needed to accept that reunification with

01:23:24.140 our daughter wasn't going to be what we were expecting.

01:23:26.740 That it was going to be that she probably didn't live with us, but we had the chance to rebuild

01:23:31.080 a relationship with her, is what she said to us.

01:23:34.260 Yeah.

01:23:34.780 And regarding the video too, the judge never watched the video, had never seen it.

01:23:40.380 The judge even admitted that court, never watched it, didn't even want to take the time

01:23:43.620 to watch it.

01:23:44.360 And she did ask the county attorney if he had watched it.

01:23:49.340 Nothing alarming.

01:23:50.380 They didn't use any names unless there's other copies that are longer.

01:23:54.060 And there wasn't.

01:23:54.680 There was only the one.

01:23:56.240 But nobody-

01:23:56.900 So what did they tell you had to do?

01:23:58.240 We got 10 minutes.

01:23:58.940 We remove it right now.

01:24:00.240 You got 10 minutes, or you go to jail.

01:24:02.720 On what grounds?

01:24:04.420 Contempt of court.

01:24:05.360 Oh.

01:24:05.800 Yeah.

01:24:06.300 So we had to do that.

01:24:07.700 But what had you done wrong before the contempt of court?

01:24:11.580 Nothing.

01:24:12.300 Nothing.

01:24:13.420 I see.

01:24:13.960 So if you didn't take it down, that was contempt of court.

01:24:16.500 But there was no reason that you had to take it down apart from that, as far as you

01:24:20.300 could tell.

01:24:20.580 No.

01:24:20.900 It was done in taste.

01:24:22.460 It was done very polite.

01:24:23.960 So did she offer any explanation at all for her?

01:24:26.780 Just anger and put us in our place.

01:24:28.720 Nope.

01:24:28.960 Yep.

01:24:29.660 Screamed at us.

01:24:30.200 Oh, wow.

01:24:30.520 So, okay.

01:24:31.080 Now, so now you've lost your daughter and you've been through the social work meat grinder

01:24:36.820 and legal meat grinder.

01:24:38.420 And now you make this public because you actually have the right to freedom of speech.

01:24:42.860 And all you did was tell the truth.

01:24:44.340 And apparently you annoyed a judge for reasons that you don't understand.

01:24:47.520 And they told you that you either take it down or you're going to go to jail.

01:24:51.040 That's the situation.

01:24:52.500 Oh, yeah.

01:24:52.940 So that's fun.

01:24:53.940 So what are you thinking about your place in the world at this point?

01:24:57.180 We're blown away by that because it was so simple.

01:25:01.440 We see other people put way more stuff up.

01:25:03.580 We did not name our child.

01:25:04.960 And they also, their attorney, the attorney for our daughter that was, she's very woke,

01:25:10.000 was said, he said he was, he lives in Glasgow.

01:25:14.780 In the video, I said, I'm from Glasgow, Montana.

01:25:18.460 You said you were born there.

01:25:19.860 I said I was born in Glasgow, Montana, and I've lived in Montana much of my life.

01:25:24.560 So that was a big crime, they said.

01:25:26.900 That was a big one because then everybody can figure out where our daughter's from.

01:25:31.100 So we thought, that's on everybody's Facebook profiles already, right?

01:25:38.060 That's a crime?

01:25:39.220 So we took the video, we did take the video down in the 10 minutes.

01:25:42.960 This is a Friday, and I don't really want to sit in jail over the weekend,

01:25:45.940 which I know was her intent.

01:25:47.200 And so I'm like, okay.

01:25:48.940 So I took the video down, but somebody else had already copied it

01:25:52.080 and released it on Rumble and other places.

01:25:54.000 Sure.

01:25:54.420 And I don't know who did that.

01:25:56.520 Right.

01:25:57.120 So it's just caught fire from there, and that's kind of what landed us here.

01:26:01.380 Yeah.

01:26:01.720 So currently, our daughter, who's 14, is in Canada with her birth mom.

01:26:06.580 We have great concerns about that because I'm not sure if you got to see the letter.

01:26:10.560 So all throughout the girls' lives, we had three of the girls in our care when they were minors.

01:26:16.880 And I had them in counseling right away because they told me horror stories about this birth mother

01:26:21.220 and terrible things that supposedly happened.

01:26:24.000 So as soon as I married Todd, I put them all in counseling.

01:26:26.880 One of those counselors wrote a letter stating that if the birth mother wanted to be reunited with Jennifer,

01:26:34.620 that she needed to go through reunification therapy, have visits, all the claims that the kids had made needed to be looked into.

01:26:42.180 So right from the get-go, I gave CPS those letters from that counselor back in 2017, I think it was, maybe 18.

01:26:50.660 And they were like, well, she's not doing that now.

01:26:53.140 And I'm like, well, no, she's not doing that now because she hasn't seen our daughter in seven years.

01:26:57.140 So we don't know.

01:26:58.060 So they didn't care.

01:26:58.860 They don't care.

01:26:59.980 So we don't know what's going on in Canada.

01:27:01.720 No, you definitely had them confused with people who cared.

01:27:04.300 Yeah.

01:27:05.240 Quite the contrary.

01:27:06.500 Yeah, it is.

01:27:06.980 Right, right.

01:27:07.780 And so that's where she is now.

01:27:09.500 And so what do you guys face now practically and legally into the future?

01:27:16.900 So when was the last time you were in communication with your daughter?

01:27:20.120 Not in probably over a month now.

01:27:22.740 It's been a while.

01:27:23.440 Yeah, and that's because we had the weekly where we talk on a webcam with her with a counselor.

01:27:30.180 Right, so that's monitored.

01:27:31.440 So we haven't had that anymore at all.

01:27:34.580 How come?

01:27:35.180 And also her sister, who loves her.

01:27:37.780 Her sister is in the Navy, loves her to death.

01:27:40.940 And CPS blocked communication with her too.

01:27:43.700 So she cannot talk to her sister, Jennifer.

01:27:46.580 So now is your communication with your daughter blocked?

01:27:48.920 Yeah.

01:27:49.100 Or blocked.

01:27:49.860 And then also during this time, well, they've hit her too, like her grandparents that aren't blocked, they kept forgetting over and over.

01:28:00.420 They kept saying it was an oversight, that she wasn't allowed to call them and wasn't on the call list.

01:28:05.220 And we would keep going through the attorneys.

01:28:07.300 And so what do you think is in the offings for your daughter?

01:28:12.260 Is she living as Leo at the moment?

01:28:13.680 Yes, she is.

01:28:14.280 And what's the plan?

01:28:15.780 Her birth mom is in Canada with her and supports her being transgender, supports her being called Leo.

01:28:21.940 I don't know what health care she can get in Canada.

01:28:24.960 She can get, you know, the double mastectomy and stuff.

01:28:27.060 I don't know what's available to her.

01:28:28.600 Anything.

01:28:30.040 And that's very...

01:28:31.360 And not just available, recommended.

01:28:33.500 Yes, that's very, very scary to us.

01:28:36.380 And, you know, our greatest fear is that she will, I don't know, if you want to say grow out of this phase or come around from this phase.

01:28:43.900 She's 14.

01:28:44.960 80% of kids or more, really, grow out of it by 18.

01:28:49.100 Yeah.

01:28:49.620 And at that point, what damage has been done?

01:28:52.920 And at that point, does she, what if she really does want to kill herself then?

01:28:56.680 Like, what have we done to support her and help her through the basic mental crisis that she had?

01:29:01.840 I don't feel like the system helped her at all.

01:29:03.640 Yeah.

01:29:04.120 Well, you can say that again.

01:29:05.780 Montana, we found out just recently, leads the U.S., according to an article on Child Takeaways by CPS.

01:29:12.040 That is true.

01:29:12.520 It's the capital of it in the whole United States.

01:29:15.280 Montana.

01:29:15.700 So, how do you guys reconcile yourself with your situation as citizens in the United States now?

01:29:23.660 I mean, like, this is, I've heard stories like this before, unfortunately.

01:29:27.820 I've watched people who were perfectly good parents fall into the maw of child protective services, often because their child was foolish enough to make a false complaint.

01:29:38.000 And then, like, all hell breaks loose.

01:29:41.140 And you're lucky.

01:29:42.080 Like, while you guys weren't lucky, you know, things really got out of hand for you.

01:29:46.700 But anybody whose life isn't destroyed by that completely is fortunate.

01:29:51.920 So, now you're in a dire situation, and so is your daughter.

01:29:56.040 Like, what's your next move?

01:29:58.500 And what's your status legally?

01:30:01.180 Because you guys, like, you weren't supposed to put up this video, but here you are talking to me.

01:30:05.700 So, my suspicions are this isn't going to make you very popular.

01:30:09.340 No.

01:30:09.680 So, one of the lawmakers that actually passed the law said that they're not following the laws correctly.

01:30:17.760 And that's the whole problem here.

01:30:19.220 It isn't the lawmakers.

01:30:20.660 The lawmakers have the right laws up.

01:30:23.720 But CPS, and I don't know if woke is the word or whatever the word is to use that kind of evil, but they're able to just go right around the laws.

01:30:32.720 Like, oh, they're going to ban this in Montana.

01:30:34.680 We're going to send her to Wyoming.

01:30:36.460 Everything has been that way.

01:30:38.200 And the lawmakers are commenting on our video.

01:30:41.020 The video they made us took down, the people that were commenting on it were the lawmakers from the state.

01:30:45.920 And they're saying, yeah, this is wrong.

01:30:47.500 They're doing this 100% backwards.

01:30:49.560 So, our situation now, to run back to it, is we are in contempt of court.

01:30:55.340 We have a court hearing on Wednesday.

01:30:58.200 And you're in contempt of court for what?

01:30:59.940 For speaking.

01:31:00.920 We're not supposed to speak about our case or anything like that at all.

01:31:04.700 Again, everything that we talk about.

01:31:07.040 Because I keep telling people, our family has been destroyed.

01:31:11.840 There'll never be a family unit of Krista, Todd, and Jennifer again.

01:31:15.020 That is done.

01:31:16.060 Our life that way as we know it is destroyed.

01:31:18.980 But the best thing that we can do is make sure that this doesn't happen again, at least in the state of Montana.

01:31:23.920 I mean, we have to get the word out.

01:31:25.800 We have to do whatever we can do to make sure another family—

01:31:29.140 Why are you willing to take that risk?

01:31:30.640 Because—

01:31:31.240 It's the right thing to do, for one.

01:31:32.820 And for another, we don't want another family to go through what we've gone through.

01:31:37.480 Oh, absolutely.

01:31:38.460 And also, it'd be a crime not to.

01:31:40.980 Exactly.

01:31:41.340 When did the U.S. shift to a country where CPS can say, you don't even get a voice?

01:31:47.880 2015.

01:31:48.860 What have we said here today that is harmful to anybody?

01:31:53.300 That it has to be gag-ordered, banned—

01:31:55.940 It's going to be harmful to you.

01:31:57.440 It is.

01:31:58.620 Well, I can see, you know, to some degree, you've already had everything that can really be taken away.

01:32:03.280 And that's another thing.

01:32:04.420 You've already taken our child.

01:32:05.380 That's right.

01:32:06.180 That's right.

01:32:06.560 What's next?

01:32:07.400 That's exactly right.

01:32:08.240 You're going to take my house?

01:32:09.000 Well, I would also say, like, your best determination is to go out with guns blazing.

01:32:15.780 And that's where we're at.

01:32:16.920 Right.

01:32:17.240 Absolutely.

01:32:17.800 Make absolutely every bit of this as public as you possibly can.

01:32:21.800 Yeah.

01:32:22.060 Right.

01:32:22.420 And assume even if you get nailed on Wednesday, if you get nailed for contempt, which you likely will, more of it.

01:32:33.960 More of it.

01:32:34.940 Yeah.

01:32:35.160 You know, because the more attention that you attract to what's happened to you, the more effective your stance is going to be.

01:32:44.560 So, I would say, my family has been under attack many times for things not quite as dire as what you're going through.

01:32:53.220 But your silence is what's required.

01:32:58.420 Exactly.

01:32:59.180 Yeah.

01:32:59.420 And you have the weapon of your voice.

01:33:02.340 Right.

01:33:02.620 And if we're quiet, then we're helping the system.

01:33:06.180 Absolutely.

01:33:06.900 And how is that helping another family?

01:33:08.380 Or you, for that matter.

01:33:10.720 Or you.

01:33:11.440 I mean, you know, there's still some possibility that you could see your way through this.

01:33:18.340 Like, I've seen families who've gone through situations similar to yours, or worse even, still weave things back together eventually, you know?

01:33:28.580 Yes.

01:33:29.180 So, people grow up.

01:33:30.800 Things change.

01:33:31.600 And we are open to that.

01:33:32.580 Absolutely.

01:33:33.020 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:33:34.720 Well, that would be the best possible case scenario.

01:33:36.780 And, you know, what your daughter's really going to want in the depth of her heart is to see that you are doing absolutely everything you can to fight 100% for her.

01:33:45.320 You know, and to whatever degree, the part of her that's still oriented in her own favor isn't completely buried.

01:33:54.800 It's going to be, that part's going to be looking to see what sort of commitment you have to her long-term thriving.

01:34:00.980 Mm-hmm.

01:34:01.280 So, Wednesday, eh?

01:34:03.400 Wednesday.

01:34:04.180 Yes.

01:34:05.240 And we have a First Amendment attorney involved.

01:34:08.240 You know, they filed appeals in the Supreme Court and stuff.

01:34:12.140 Well, you're lucky.

01:34:12.880 In the United States, you have pretty powerful free speech protection.

01:34:15.620 Yeah.

01:34:16.040 So, with any luck, that will actually protect you.

01:34:19.520 In Canada, the situation's much worse.

01:34:22.100 We have a Charter of Rights, but that bloody thing is worth the paper it's printed on.

01:34:25.740 And so, basically, in Canada, it's already been decided that any half-wit, mid-level bureaucrat of exactly the sort that you guys have been tangling with can put pretty much any restrictions whatsoever on freedom of speech and freedom of association.

01:34:38.960 And, well, those two in particular, for whatever reason, they deem reasonable.

01:34:47.180 So, but you do have First Amendment protection in the U.S.

01:34:49.900 So, my suspicions are, if you keep fighting this, that you'll probably win.

01:34:53.700 How are you affording this?

01:34:55.500 We have a give-and-go.

01:34:57.480 Yeah.

01:34:57.860 You know, I mean, we're trying to rally and to raise money.

01:35:00.920 We, at one point, not to jump backwards, but at one point, we were told, you know, CPS has a budget of like $3.5 million.

01:35:11.660 And so, we're like, why can't, why does our family unit, because they're saying that we have to have a treatment plan, which their treatment plan is they want us to go to marriage counseling and accept Jennifer for what she is.

01:35:24.040 And I said, no, you're not going to make me go to, you didn't, you just socially transitioned my daughter, and now you want me to go to counseling to accept it.

01:35:30.520 You bet, it's time to transition you.

01:35:32.040 No, the answer is no.

01:35:34.200 No way, that's not going to happen.

01:35:36.140 Go and record it.

01:35:37.140 They did.

01:35:38.180 They actually did want us to go to counseling to learn how to raise that.

01:35:42.240 They want me to go to counseling in Canada, too, to be reeducated.

01:35:45.460 Yeah, that's.

01:35:46.020 No, like, no.

01:35:47.620 And so.

01:35:48.020 They said we have to.

01:35:48.660 That was.

01:35:49.240 Yeah, yeah, no, I understand.

01:35:51.580 I understand.

01:35:51.980 Yeah, so they're saying, no, you don't understand.

01:35:54.040 They were laughing at us the other day.

01:35:55.360 They're like, you don't understand.

01:35:56.440 You have to go.

01:35:57.340 And I'm like, I don't have to go to counseling to accept something that I'm, that's not true.

01:36:01.340 Like, if you told me you were a unicorn, I don't have to go to counseling to accept that.

01:36:05.380 I didn't tell you that before this started.

01:36:08.020 It's a hell of a time to bring it up now.

01:36:09.920 That's just crazy, you know.

01:36:11.500 And so.

01:36:11.960 No, it's not just crazy.

01:36:12.960 It's mandatory and it's illegal not to do it.

01:36:15.620 Right.

01:36:16.300 That's how crazy it is.

01:36:17.500 So we're working with people who are like, why?

01:36:21.420 Okay, this is the first transgender case in the state of Montana.

01:36:24.560 So why can't they work with us a little bit and say, let's bring in an expert and say, how do you reunify this family that you, you know, you've torn apart?

01:36:33.760 Yeah, that's not the goal.

01:36:34.100 That is definitely not the goal.

01:36:35.280 And they're not open to it at all.

01:36:36.440 That is not the goal.

01:36:37.620 No.

01:36:37.760 The goal is exactly what happened to you.

01:36:40.680 That was the goal.

01:36:41.820 Right.

01:36:42.300 And the goal is the eventual full transition of your daughter.

01:36:46.000 That is the goal.

01:36:47.380 Yeah.

01:36:47.540 For sure.

01:36:48.360 And publicly.

01:36:49.520 And hopefully it will cause you a lot of pain along the way.

01:36:52.540 Mm-hmm.

01:36:52.900 Right.

01:36:53.320 That's the goal.

01:36:54.260 Make no mistake about it.

01:36:56.040 Yeah.

01:36:56.580 Yeah.

01:36:56.780 Well, good luck with your court case.

01:36:59.000 Thanks.

01:36:59.140 Keep me posted.

01:37:00.060 We will.

01:37:00.420 Yeah, maybe what we should do, you guys can decide this, but maybe we should do a brief follow-up by Zoom after your court case.

01:37:08.140 Sure.

01:37:08.240 You know, think about it for a couple of days because they're going to come down like a ton of bricks on you, I imagine.

01:37:13.080 And so then you'll have to decide, you know, what you're willing to do.

01:37:16.680 Well, we were told by an attorney before we walked out here that the press is filing action to be in the courtroom on Wednesday because they want to be able to report on the contempt of court charges and see what happens to us.

01:37:30.800 So we were told that they're trying to do that.

01:37:33.140 And at this point, I think the judge said no.

01:37:35.600 Yeah, I bet.

01:37:36.180 Monday is a court holiday.

01:37:38.480 Monday is a court holiday.

01:37:39.620 So on Tuesday, the press has lawyers that are going to file now being a little more persistent.

01:37:47.280 Like, no, they have a right for freedom of speech.

01:37:49.680 The press has a right to report on this.

01:37:51.180 You have to let them in.

01:37:52.500 One quick thing, though.

01:37:55.060 They're not playing by the same rules, though.

01:37:56.760 We have the governor's office making comments about us that are wrong.

01:38:00.200 Yeah.

01:38:00.840 And not only that.

01:38:01.720 You guys are way outside the domain of rules.

01:38:04.620 Yeah, we were.

01:38:05.040 This is no man's land and war.

01:38:07.500 Oh, yeah.

01:38:08.060 You're way outside the rules.

01:38:09.440 We've been accused of having, like, meth labs and living in squalor and all kinds of stuff like that.

01:38:15.500 Well, if you're going to have a meth lab, you might as well live in squalor, you know.

01:38:18.640 You might like this.

01:38:19.540 We were out for dinner.

01:38:21.280 We were actually out for dinner while they had our daughter.

01:38:26.160 And this is, we had one of the staff members from the hospital, we think it's one of the nurses,

01:38:31.980 nurses that evidently interviewed our daughter or something, actually approached us in front

01:38:36.640 of a crowded, we're at a crowded place out for dinner, and started raising our voices

01:38:41.440 and saying, we should have, we, and they called her by name, and we should have allowed her

01:38:45.700 to transgender, that we should have promoted that.

01:38:49.160 We should have laughed her on what she wanted.

01:38:50.640 And everybody heard it.

01:38:52.520 Now, they did suspend.

01:38:53.500 Have you had, have you had, okay, so let's end with this.

01:38:56.480 Let's end this section.

01:38:57.500 I'm going to continue talking for another half an hour on the Daily Wire Plus side,

01:39:01.920 just so everybody who's listening knows.

01:39:03.660 And I think I'm going to talk to this couple about, about, well, their feelings about the country

01:39:11.460 they live in now, I would say, and what's happened to it, because I would like to delve

01:39:14.660 into that to some degree and what they think is going to happen to them in the future.

01:39:17.640 And so, join us for that.

01:39:21.800 Join us for that.

01:39:22.720 Okay, so I do have one question for you.

01:39:24.980 Well, you know, you guys have been under a lot of pressure to admit to your, to the wrongdoing

01:39:32.080 that you've committed, right?

01:39:33.720 The, the, the fact that you didn't abide by your daughter's demands, the fact that you're

01:39:39.420 unfit parents as a consequence of that, the fact that now you're doubling down so hard

01:39:43.800 that you're willing to divide the courts.

01:39:45.360 It's like, to what degree have you had periods of time where you wondered whether you were

01:39:52.140 in the wrong?

01:39:53.880 It's happened.

01:39:55.220 Yeah, well, I imagine, I can't imagine.

01:39:57.140 Sometimes daily, like sometimes I say, gosh, is this worth it?

01:40:00.480 Should we just walk away and, and, you know, go live quietly somewhere?

01:40:04.900 Or, but no, that's not the right thing to do.

01:40:09.020 That doesn't help anybody else.

01:40:11.240 So, we're going to keep fighting.

01:40:12.920 It just enables it to get worse and worse and worse.

01:40:16.360 Oh yeah, it'll get worse.

01:40:17.540 There's, you know, that's, there's, hell is a bottomless pit because no matter how bad

01:40:23.580 it is, there's some stupid something somebody can do to make it worse.

01:40:27.880 And so, yeah, yeah, this is, well, you, you've definitely seen a long way into the abyss,

01:40:33.260 but there's many layers below that if you really want to visit them.

01:40:37.600 So, and silence definitely increases the probability that those additional layers will make themselves

01:40:42.980 manifest.

01:40:43.460 So, I mean, we're already pretty far down the rabbit hole, right?

01:40:46.820 Once we've got to the point where the state can take your child on the grounds of your

01:40:52.060 abuse to mutilate, castrate and sterilize them and to claim that that's virtuous, right?

01:40:59.380 That's, that's a long way down the rabbit hole, but there's more distance yet to go.

01:41:05.560 So, yeah, brutal.

01:41:07.700 Well, I'm very sorry to hear what's happened to you.

01:41:09.680 That's, and congratulations on your courage.

01:41:14.000 That's rare, way rarer than you think, way rarer than you want to think.

01:41:19.420 Most people, they, they retreat into silence, you know, or they explode.

01:41:28.660 And you can certainly understand that.

01:41:30.960 And so you've managed neither of those.

01:41:33.720 And so, well.

01:41:35.700 Rather be in contempt of their court than God's court, though.

01:41:38.380 Yeah, well, that's right.

01:41:40.060 That's for sure.

01:41:41.120 That's right.

01:41:41.780 All right.

01:41:43.340 Well, to everybody watching and listening, thank you very much for your time and attention

01:41:47.540 to the film crew here today.

01:41:49.360 Appreciate your help.

01:41:50.440 Day to Wire Plus people for making this conversation possible.

01:41:53.880 That's much appreciated as well.

01:41:55.260 and let's continue.

01:41:56.360 I love you.

01:41:56.940 I love you.

01:41:57.580 I love you.

01:41:59.000 I love you.

01:42:00.920 I love you.

01:42:02.140 Bye-bye.

01:42:02.440 Bye-bye.

01:42:02.880 Bye-bye.

01:42:03.140 Bye-bye.

01:42:03.500 Bye-bye.

01:42:04.340 Bye-bye.

01:42:05.380 Bye-bye.

01:42:05.400 Amen.

428. They Took Our Daughter ｜ Todd & Krista Kolstad

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