The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

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00:00:57.420 Hello, everybody. I had the pleasure today of speaking with Bishop Robert Barron, and I've spoken with Bishop Barron a number of times before,

00:01:17.340 sometimes with John Vervecki, sometimes with Jonathan Pajot, sometimes alone, in all sorts of different places, including Rome.

00:01:24.700 We've developed a good relationship, and he's a very interesting religious thinker, in my estimation.

00:01:32.440 He's contending with the core meanings of the narratives that sit at the base of our culture,

00:01:38.720 and that, for better or worse, sometimes both unite us fundamentally and most profoundly for better.

00:01:45.680 We talked today about, I suppose, it's something approximating the undeniable reality of the divine or the sacred.

00:01:54.800 Even by definition, we tried to lay out a mode of conceptualizing the proposition that there is a highest and uniting value,

00:02:03.980 which I would, what would you say, allegiance to that highest and eternal value is something like faith.

00:02:12.100 It's something like covenant. It's something like the proper aim of life.

00:02:15.840 It's something like the proper aim of life, insofar as your life is meaningful and generous and productive.

00:02:21.020 All of that, by definition.

00:02:22.940 We laid out the modern understanding of that and how the church, at least in part,

00:02:28.680 has deviated from its obligation and responsibility to explain the nature of that relationship

00:02:36.400 and to help people understand why it needs to be primary.

00:02:39.640 So that's where the discussion will go. Join us.

00:02:46.020 All right. So let me share some of my thoughts with you.

00:02:49.940 It'll be kind of a lengthy introduction to our discussion,

00:02:52.740 but there's been some very exciting technical developments

00:02:57.180 that actually bear, surprisingly, on the religious question.

00:03:00.180 So I'll give you one example.

00:03:03.520 So one of my former students who's now working with me

00:03:07.140 has been using large language models to investigate the concept of God.

00:03:15.060 Now, one of the things that Sam Harris,

00:03:19.280 one of the criticisms that Sam Harris and the atheists in general

00:03:22.580 have levied at thinkers like myself and thinkers, let's say, like Carl Jung,

00:03:27.500 this is also a postmodern critique,

00:03:29.500 is that the interpretation of a given narrative is arbitrary,

00:03:36.180 that you can read into a narrative anything you want,

00:03:39.900 and that there's no, you might say, intrinsic meaning in the text.

00:03:44.460 Now, that's actually wrong, and we actually know why now,

00:03:50.680 and we can actually demonstrate that it's wrong,

00:03:53.060 and I have no idea what the ultimate significance of that will be,

00:03:57.280 but let me tell you why.

00:03:59.500 Because this is really quite fascinating.

00:04:03.240 So, we know that some words are more similar than others.

00:04:09.040 And then you might say, well, what makes words or concepts similar?

00:04:12.660 And the answer would be something like substitutability,

00:04:18.440 or you could think about it as, so, substitutability with regard to a purpose.

00:04:23.280 It's a very critical and strange definition of similarity,

00:04:27.100 but also proximity in the space of meaning.

00:04:30.960 And then you might say, well, what does it mean for things to be proximal in the meaning space,

00:04:37.420 and it means likely to co-occur.

00:04:40.560 Now, this student I'm referring to, his name is Victor Swift, by the way,

00:04:46.300 he's been able to show, and this is essentially mathematically,

00:04:51.620 a conceptual overlap between 10 concepts and the concept of God.

00:04:55.740 So, imagine this, Bishop Barron, imagine this, that you, that every concept has a center, okay?

00:05:05.980 So, the concept of God, the center of the concept of God would be God.

00:05:09.840 But then imagine that there's a cloud of immediate associations around that concept,

00:05:17.740 and that those associations are the concepts that are statistically most likely to co-occur with that concept.

00:05:25.480 Okay, so this is something approximating a mathematical fact.

00:05:29.540 It has nothing to do with subjective opinion.

00:05:32.020 So, then you could imagine, and we're trying to map this,

00:05:34.640 that you have God in the center, and then close to that would be the true, the beautiful, and the good.

00:05:40.660 And then there'd be another cloud of associations around that,

00:05:44.740 that would be second-order associations.

00:05:47.260 Now, the way a large language model works is that it actually learns those associations

00:05:53.160 at multiple levels of comparison simultaneously.

00:05:59.420 So, it actually maps out what you might describe as the semantic space,

00:06:03.640 or the space of meaning.

00:06:05.440 Now, so this would also imply, this is where it gets so cool.

00:06:11.680 So, imagine if we took a cloud of concepts that people universally recognized as good.

00:06:18.280 So, you could imagine that you and me and Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins

00:06:23.380 would have a fair amount of agreement on what those goods were.

00:06:27.660 You know, individual, the dignity of the individual,

00:06:30.460 conceptual, the idea of the good, the idea of the true,

00:06:33.360 the idea of the beautiful, the idea of upward striving.

00:06:36.760 Okay, now imagine that that makes a conceptual cloud.

00:06:40.660 There's going to be a center of that cloud

00:06:43.120 that constitutes the reason for the similarity of the ideas.

00:06:48.240 And it looks to me like, semantically speaking,

00:06:52.180 so in terms of our verbal content,

00:06:54.540 this might also be true with regards to the stories we tell,

00:06:57.020 that the central concept around which all goods rotate

00:07:00.880 is indistinguishable from the semantic representation of God.

00:07:05.520 And it also looks like we can now map that.

00:07:08.540 So, I think we can dispense entirely with the criticism

00:07:11.660 that the interpretation of, say, biblical narratives

00:07:16.220 has to be something arbitrary.

00:07:18.200 And we can also make the case,

00:07:19.960 which Carl Jung made to begin with,

00:07:21.700 is that in any system of value that's coherent,

00:07:25.700 there's going to be a central factor

00:07:27.700 that accounts for its coherence.

00:07:30.140 And it's certainly the case,

00:07:32.020 it's highly probable that that's indistinguishable

00:07:34.980 from the concept of God.

00:07:37.100 That's how it looks.

00:07:38.040 And so, that's so cool,

00:07:39.480 because this is starting,

00:07:41.260 we're starting to be able to use this technology

00:07:43.100 to dispense with opinion.

00:07:45.400 So, you know, Jung said,

00:07:46.720 called or uncalled, God is present.

00:07:49.360 Right, God is there.

00:07:50.400 Right, right.

00:07:51.100 And I don't remember who he derived that from,

00:07:53.360 but that was what he had carved on his castle at Bollingen.

00:07:56.480 But that's the same idea, right?

00:07:59.820 That implicit in a semantic landscape

00:08:02.500 is the central concept of the highest ideal.

00:08:06.120 That's kind of like the sum of bonum.

00:08:07.720 So, I'm just wondering,

00:08:09.300 well, what you might be thinking about

00:08:11.620 in relationship to that possibility.

00:08:14.820 Yeah, there's so much there.

00:08:16.340 There's questions of hermeneutics

00:08:17.520 and questions of metaphysics

00:08:18.720 and questions of psychology and that.

00:08:20.640 You know, I'm against the postmoderns

00:08:22.400 who want to unravel the self, first of all.

00:08:24.520 There's no really coherent self

00:08:26.240 that does this judging and analyzing.

00:08:28.780 There's also, they want to unravel metaphysics.

00:08:31.380 And what you're arguing there,

00:08:32.720 in a more sort of semantic way,

00:08:34.640 is that there is a coherence to the self.

00:08:36.980 There is a coherence to the metaphysical structure

00:08:38.960 of the real.

00:08:40.280 So, to use an example of God, yes.

00:08:43.600 We would say that God is not a being,

00:08:46.240 but being itself.

00:08:47.760 So, the famous answer given to Moses, right?

00:08:50.380 Ego sum qui sum.

00:08:51.540 I am who I am.

00:08:53.500 Moses is asking,

00:08:54.660 what kind of being are you?

00:08:55.940 He's trying to put God in categorical terms.

00:08:58.460 And the answer there is so important

00:09:00.480 because that makes all the difference

00:09:02.920 when it comes to understanding religious language.

00:09:05.240 Is if we follow Moses and his question,

00:09:08.220 we will inevitably end up in atheism.

00:09:11.340 Because if you think God is a categorical object

00:09:13.820 in the world,

00:09:14.700 eventually you'll say,

00:09:15.420 well, I don't see this object

00:09:16.860 and there's no evidence for it

00:09:18.440 and I can explain the world without it.

00:09:20.540 So, that's why the answer of God in Exodus

00:09:23.320 is so powerful

00:09:24.280 because he's saying,

00:09:25.840 dumb question, wrong question.

00:09:28.420 I'm not a thing in the world that you can name.

00:09:31.440 I am who I am,

00:09:33.100 which means I'm the prius.

00:09:35.140 That's Augustine's language.

00:09:36.120 I'm prior to thought and to language.

00:09:40.020 I'm prior to being.

00:09:41.880 I'm that upon which the categorical realm depends.

00:09:45.960 Right, right.

00:09:46.660 So, from that,

00:09:47.460 if you get God is,

00:09:48.980 as Aquinas says,

00:09:49.840 the act of to be itself.

00:09:52.080 So, Aquinas says God is not

00:09:53.580 en sumum, highest being,

00:09:56.040 but ipsum esse, right?

00:09:58.060 Right, the principle of being.

00:10:00.260 Right.

00:10:00.600 So, if you say that,

00:10:01.960 well, then right away,

00:10:03.260 you've got the central organizing principle

00:10:05.580 of all reality.

00:10:07.040 And then everything else has to cluster around,

00:10:09.760 which is why we speak about God

00:10:10.840 as being the creator of all things.

00:10:12.540 But also to your semantic point

00:10:14.320 about the good and the beautiful

00:10:16.260 and so on, the true,

00:10:17.420 we call those the transcendental properties of being.

00:10:19.760 Wherever you find being,

00:10:21.200 you find those things.

00:10:22.600 Therefore, they are closely related

00:10:25.420 to the central idea of God.

00:10:27.380 And which is precisely why,

00:10:29.020 in the spiritual order,

00:10:30.300 we get at God through those avenues,

00:10:33.280 through the true and the good

00:10:34.220 and the beautiful.

00:10:35.420 It's, you know,

00:10:35.780 there's our friend James Joyce.

00:10:37.840 You know,

00:10:38.000 when you see the beautiful girl

00:10:39.960 off the beach

00:10:41.260 and you take in her beauty,

00:10:43.660 what that leads you to,

00:10:45.660 as Stephen Daedalus says,

00:10:46.800 is, oh, heavenly God.

00:10:47.940 You know,

00:10:48.760 so that's the Platonic path

00:10:50.640 that Joyce, you know,

00:10:52.240 so that's the clustering

00:10:53.660 of those ideas tightly around God.

00:10:55.900 And then to your point about stories,

00:10:59.680 I think that's really important

00:11:00.960 because I don't agree

00:11:02.160 with the postmodern kind of unraveling

00:11:04.140 of narrative

00:11:04.640 and it's simply a matter

00:11:06.120 of subjective opinion.

00:11:07.280 It's just the reader response.

00:11:09.180 See, what tells against that,

00:11:10.700 as you well know,

00:11:11.780 is this ancient tradition

00:11:13.940 of a coherent reading of these texts.

00:11:16.700 I mean, why is it that people

00:11:18.820 over now millennia

00:11:20.440 have read these texts

00:11:21.460 and found very deep

00:11:23.600 and consistent ideas?

00:11:25.440 It's because they have

00:11:26.540 a semantic structure

00:11:27.760 which is dependent upon

00:11:29.180 a metaphysical structure

00:11:30.280 which gives rise

00:11:31.480 to a spiritual transformation.

00:11:33.660 They're classic texts

00:11:35.220 for that reason

00:11:35.800 and we shouldn't simply read them

00:11:37.520 as, oh, they're just this,

00:11:38.840 you know,

00:11:39.180 coming together of words

00:11:40.140 and I can read any old way

00:11:41.220 I want to.

00:11:42.220 Well, no,

00:11:42.480 the whole of human

00:11:43.860 interpretive history

00:11:45.620 tells against that.

00:11:46.820 So, I think we do have to battle

00:11:48.680 the postmodern,

00:11:50.360 ultimately, nihilism

00:11:51.520 metaphysically

00:11:52.220 and the sort of indifferentism

00:11:53.680 at the level of interpretation.

00:11:56.400 No, no,

00:11:56.760 these are classic texts

00:11:58.160 that have spoken

00:11:58.840 for very good reason.

00:12:00.680 I think,

00:12:01.460 I actually think

00:12:02.400 that that battle is over

00:12:03.740 because I think

00:12:04.600 the large language models

00:12:05.720 are going to demolish

00:12:06.940 their pretensions.

00:12:08.000 So, here,

00:12:08.660 so imagine this.

00:12:10.140 Here's a way of two things.

00:12:12.700 So,

00:12:13.100 why did God

00:12:14.700 disappear,

00:12:16.220 die,

00:12:16.580 let's say,

00:12:17.060 and the psychoanalysts

00:12:18.820 believe that God

00:12:19.560 sunk into the unconscious.

00:12:21.080 That was

00:12:21.580 Jung's proposition

00:12:23.560 that if God

00:12:24.340 dies formally,

00:12:25.460 all that happens

00:12:26.380 is that the

00:12:27.240 prime factor

00:12:28.520 becomes unconscious.

00:12:29.820 So, imagine this.

00:12:30.760 This is how you could

00:12:31.680 think of that technically.

00:12:32.820 So, imagine now

00:12:33.600 you have your cloud

00:12:36.360 of concepts.

00:12:37.860 So,

00:12:39.060 with the central factor

00:12:40.440 of the good itself

00:12:41.660 and maybe the essence

00:12:42.540 of being itself,

00:12:44.180 being by definition,

00:12:46.000 this is by definition,

00:12:47.080 by the way,

00:12:47.480 that's what God is.

00:12:48.580 And when there's

00:12:49.620 a concordance

00:12:50.460 between the religious,

00:12:51.960 explicit religious belief

00:12:53.420 and that implicit

00:12:54.740 network of meaning,

00:12:57.100 you have a conscious God

00:12:58.660 at the center,

00:12:59.320 like you're conscious

00:13:00.000 of that God.

00:13:01.040 But then if you dispense

00:13:02.240 with that central

00:13:03.180 uniting proposition,

00:13:04.980 you don't eradicate

00:13:06.320 the commonalities

00:13:07.540 between what is good.

00:13:09.720 You just let them

00:13:12.080 sink back

00:13:12.880 into implicitness.

00:13:14.500 And that seems to me

00:13:15.540 to be equivalent

00:13:16.220 to the descent of God

00:13:17.560 into the unconscious.

00:13:18.560 That's the same thing

00:13:19.540 as Geppetto,

00:13:20.840 for example,

00:13:21.900 going down into

00:13:22.720 the belly of the whale

00:13:23.700 is that now God

00:13:24.600 becomes implicit,

00:13:26.120 right?

00:13:26.320 But that doesn't mean

00:13:27.140 that he's not there.

00:13:28.200 He's still coded

00:13:29.280 in the relationship

00:13:30.240 between those things

00:13:31.960 that are meaningful.

00:13:33.560 Okay, so that's

00:13:34.500 pretty wild.

00:13:36.500 And then with regards

00:13:37.360 to—go ahead.

00:13:38.580 If I can just jump in.

00:13:39.800 What happened to God,

00:13:41.180 the disappearance of God,

00:13:42.720 is a function

00:13:44.020 of this misinterpretation

00:13:46.580 of God as a being.

00:13:48.220 And we can see

00:13:48.880 when that happened.

00:13:49.620 It happened by

00:13:50.100 the late Middle Ages

00:13:50.920 when Aquinas'

00:13:52.140 more analogical metaphysic

00:13:53.460 gave way

00:13:54.020 to a univocal

00:13:55.220 conception of being.

00:13:56.140 That's in people

00:13:56.620 like William of Ockham.

00:13:58.040 And when that happens,

00:13:59.180 see, God is still there,

00:14:00.840 but God is now

00:14:01.980 one being among many.

00:14:03.520 God's the supreme

00:14:04.520 instance of the category being.

00:14:07.500 Well, all right,

00:14:08.180 in the late Middle Ages,

00:14:09.480 God's still there.

00:14:10.520 We take him seriously.

00:14:11.600 But now move forward.

00:14:12.900 As God is seen

00:14:14.020 as a being among many,

00:14:15.700 he becomes

00:14:16.320 more and more

00:14:17.640 distantiated,

00:14:19.840 more and more

00:14:20.640 irrelevant to the world.

00:14:22.000 And then,

00:14:22.700 in early modernity,

00:14:23.680 he becomes a rival

00:14:24.880 to the world.

00:14:25.820 And it has to be that way.

00:14:27.140 If you and I

00:14:27.920 were sort of plotted

00:14:28.980 on the same mathematical grid,

00:14:30.880 we're going to be,

00:14:31.700 to some degree,

00:14:32.360 over and against each other.

00:14:33.580 We'll be battling

00:14:34.460 for the same space.

00:14:36.060 So, God

00:14:37.180 and humanity

00:14:38.440 are on the same grid,

00:14:39.740 both beings,

00:14:40.480 one's smaller,

00:14:41.120 one's bigger,

00:14:41.860 but they're, of course,

00:14:42.880 going to come into conflict.

00:14:44.360 Now, look,

00:14:44.880 read a lot of the early moderns

00:14:46.300 that way.

00:14:46.980 Then keep going,

00:14:48.160 and you come right up

00:14:48.960 to the atheists

00:14:49.560 who finally say,

00:14:50.780 look, I've had it

00:14:51.700 with this being.

00:14:52.420 I don't want this big being

00:14:53.460 interfering with my freedom

00:14:54.720 and my self-definition.

00:14:56.360 Now you've got

00:14:57.240 Jean-Paul Sartre, right?

00:14:58.820 If God exists,

00:15:00.340 I can't be free.

00:15:01.640 But I am free.

00:15:02.800 Therefore,

00:15:03.120 God doesn't exist.

00:15:04.620 That, I would argue,

00:15:06.020 is in the mind

00:15:06.820 of almost every teenager

00:15:08.100 in the West today,

00:15:09.080 that idea.

00:15:10.000 God is a rival

00:15:11.100 to my freedom.

00:15:12.180 But you know this,

00:15:13.380 how repugnant

00:15:14.360 all of that is

00:15:15.580 to the Bible, right?

00:15:17.260 In fact,

00:15:17.740 this morning

00:15:18.560 in my office,

00:15:19.580 so as a priest,

00:15:20.240 I pray the Liturgy

00:15:21.160 of the Hours every day,

00:15:22.040 and we had the passage

00:15:23.300 from Isaiah,

00:15:24.780 and it says this,

00:15:25.500 Lord,

00:15:26.720 you have accomplished

00:15:28.260 all we have done.

00:15:30.800 It's a little line,

00:15:32.160 but it'll take your breath away

00:15:33.240 if you get it.

00:15:34.400 Lord,

00:15:35.020 you have accomplished

00:15:36.120 all we have done.

00:15:37.640 We've done it,

00:15:38.840 but you accomplished it.

00:15:40.500 The implication there

00:15:41.680 is God is not a rival

00:15:43.220 to our thought

00:15:44.780 or to our action

00:15:45.860 or our achievement.

00:15:47.160 In fact,

00:15:48.120 the glory of God

00:15:49.620 is a human being

00:15:50.560 fully alive,

00:15:51.380 as St. Irenaeus said.

00:15:52.940 See,

00:15:53.160 that's what modernity

00:15:54.060 begins to have

00:15:54.540 a problem with,

00:15:55.320 and when you follow

00:15:56.080 that trajectory,

00:15:56.820 you get all the way

00:15:57.740 right to the atheists

00:15:58.680 who say,

00:15:59.400 well,

00:15:59.580 I don't want

00:16:00.760 this big being

00:16:01.680 interfering with my life

00:16:02.980 and my accomplishment.

00:16:04.600 And then we'll go back

00:16:05.740 to something

00:16:06.940 we've both talked about

00:16:07.880 a lot,

00:16:08.260 the burning bush,

00:16:09.540 right,

00:16:09.920 which is on fire

00:16:11.300 but not consumed,

00:16:13.360 and that's

00:16:14.180 a biblical imagination.

00:16:15.280 When God comes

00:16:16.020 close to the world,

00:16:16.960 the world is luminous

00:16:18.180 and beautiful,

00:16:19.780 compelling,

00:16:20.180 and it's not consumed.

00:16:21.960 It's not destroyed

00:16:22.820 by the divine proximity.

00:16:25.200 That's the biblical idea

00:16:26.540 that was compromised

00:16:27.740 by the late Middle Ages,

00:16:30.460 became exaggerated

00:16:32.120 in the modern period,

00:16:33.200 and then comes to full fruition

00:16:34.520 with the atheists.

00:16:35.760 So whether it's Feuerbach

00:16:36.920 or Sam Harris,

00:16:37.920 it's a very similar problem.

00:16:40.180 And they're not getting,

00:16:41.780 seems to me,

00:16:42.560 the biblical understanding

00:16:43.860 of the non-competitiveness

00:16:46.100 of God with the world.

00:16:47.820 But that comes from

00:16:48.800 this idea of God

00:16:49.560 as to be itself,

00:16:51.460 not a being.

00:16:52.500 Right, right.

00:16:53.260 I think all of that's

00:16:54.340 the deep metaphysical background

00:16:55.540 for what we're dealing

00:16:56.300 with today.

00:16:57.540 Going online

00:16:58.480 without ExpressVPN

00:16:59.460 is like not paying attention

00:17:00.900 to the safety demonstration

00:17:01.960 on a flight.

00:17:03.080 Most of the time,

00:17:03.840 you'll probably be fine,

00:17:05.140 but what if one day

00:17:06.300 that weird yellow mask

00:17:07.520 drops down from overhead

00:17:08.540 and you have no idea

00:17:10.040 what to do?

00:17:10.840 In our hyper-connected world,

00:17:12.300 your digital privacy

00:17:13.260 isn't just a luxury,

00:17:14.620 it's a fundamental right.

00:17:15.940 Every time you connect

00:17:16.740 to an unsecured network

00:17:17.920 in a cafe, hotel, or airport,

00:17:20.220 you're essentially broadcasting

00:17:21.400 your personal information

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00:18:35.600 Okay, so let's go.

00:18:37.080 I want to go two places

00:18:38.140 with that.

00:18:38.700 I want to investigate

00:18:39.340 the burning bush more

00:18:40.500 and I want to talk about

00:18:41.580 the fall.

00:18:43.580 Yeah.

00:18:44.160 And it's okay.

00:18:45.020 So with regard

00:18:45.780 to the burning bush,

00:18:46.680 so I've been working

00:18:48.580 on this new book,

00:18:49.660 We Who Wrestle With God,

00:18:50.680 and I've been trying

00:18:51.960 to map out

00:18:53.300 the semantic space.

00:18:54.500 I think that's a reasonable

00:18:55.440 way of thinking about it.

00:18:56.320 Now, it's not only semantic

00:18:57.660 because it's also

00:18:58.440 the space of the imagination

00:18:59.800 and it's also the space

00:19:02.120 of the cultural traditions

00:19:04.160 that unite us

00:19:05.120 because the monotheistic hypothesis

00:19:07.720 is something like

00:19:08.860 there's an underlying unity

00:19:10.220 rather than a diversity

00:19:11.960 or a plurality

00:19:12.780 and that that will make

00:19:13.720 itself manifest

00:19:14.460 at the behavioral,

00:19:15.760 at the level

00:19:16.600 of the imaginative

00:19:17.540 and at the level

00:19:18.520 of the semantic

00:19:19.160 simultaneously.

00:19:20.740 Right?

00:19:20.900 And there's going to be,

00:19:21.480 this is also why

00:19:22.320 the postmodernists

00:19:23.220 are wrong

00:19:23.620 because they think meaning

00:19:24.720 is only encoded

00:19:25.600 in the semantic space

00:19:26.740 and that's not true.

00:19:28.440 Like, a story

00:19:30.200 is not precisely semantic

00:19:32.220 like a parable

00:19:33.000 because it draws

00:19:34.120 on the power

00:19:34.840 of the image

00:19:35.580 as well as

00:19:36.580 on the power

00:19:37.260 of the word

00:19:37.780 and those images

00:19:38.500 are related to behaviors.

00:19:40.100 Okay, in any case,

00:19:41.080 what seems to happen

00:19:42.060 in the burning bush story,

00:19:43.260 so imagine this,

00:19:44.100 is that Moses

00:19:45.100 is attracted by something.

00:19:47.620 Something calls to him.

00:19:49.400 Okay, and so that's like

00:19:50.360 a beckoning

00:19:51.240 or a promise.

00:19:53.180 Now, the way

00:19:54.740 that that works

00:19:55.540 neurophysiologically

00:19:56.540 is that we're always

00:19:57.880 looking for things

00:19:58.700 that beckon and call

00:19:59.960 as indicators

00:20:01.800 of the path

00:20:02.720 to treasure.

00:20:03.960 Even bees do this,

00:20:05.460 by the way.

00:20:05.940 Like, this is very,

00:20:06.800 very deeply embedded

00:20:07.980 inside living creatures

00:20:09.560 and so there'll be things

00:20:10.620 that call to us

00:20:11.580 and attract our attention

00:20:14.180 and pull us off

00:20:15.280 our current path,

00:20:16.240 which is exactly

00:20:16.880 what happens to Moses

00:20:18.060 and this happens

00:20:19.200 to him near Mount Sinai,

00:20:20.740 which is the connection

00:20:21.660 between the earthly

00:20:23.560 and the divine.

00:20:24.460 The two dimensions, right?

00:20:26.700 Exactly,

00:20:27.440 this vertical dimension

00:20:28.680 and so Moses

00:20:30.540 pursues this thing

00:20:32.100 that glimmers

00:20:33.340 and gleams

00:20:34.700 and compels him

00:20:35.720 and he pursues it

00:20:36.980 right to the bottom

00:20:37.800 and as he gets closer

00:20:39.000 and closer

00:20:39.460 to the core concept,

00:20:40.900 let's say,

00:20:41.740 so that would be

00:20:42.200 the core idea

00:20:43.020 in this web of meaning,

00:20:44.520 he starts to understand

00:20:45.680 that he's on sacred ground.

00:20:47.620 Right.

00:20:48.100 Right, right?

00:20:48.820 So then he becomes

00:20:49.640 even more humble.

00:20:50.900 He lessens himself more.

00:20:53.320 Exactly, exactly, exactly.

00:20:55.220 Because the shoes,

00:20:55.940 I would say the shoes

00:20:56.740 mean you're in command.

00:20:57.760 If you have shoes on,

00:20:58.380 you can walk anywhere

00:20:58.940 you want to go

00:20:59.520 and if it's rocky soil

00:21:01.280 or it's an incline,

00:21:03.140 whatever,

00:21:03.400 you can walk.

00:21:04.220 You take your shoes off,

00:21:05.400 you're much more vulnerable

00:21:06.340 and you're much more humble.

00:21:07.700 You have to be.

00:21:08.920 You can also feel

00:21:10.020 the ground better,

00:21:11.300 you know,

00:21:11.580 and you can imagine

00:21:12.420 that as you're approaching

00:21:14.240 the sacred,

00:21:15.020 you don't want to have

00:21:15.680 anything between you

00:21:16.820 and the sacred

00:21:17.440 because you want to feel

00:21:18.700 out where you're going.

00:21:20.160 Okay, so...

00:21:20.700 Right.

00:21:20.820 Yes, and that only happens

00:21:22.340 through humility.

00:21:23.520 Hummus, right?

00:21:24.200 You're close to the earth.

00:21:25.660 So humility is not like,

00:21:27.000 you know...

00:21:27.900 Right, it's not like degradation.

00:21:29.460 It's this getting close

00:21:30.580 to the earth

00:21:31.440 and if you got your shoes on

00:21:33.300 in that kind of aggressive sense

00:21:34.620 of I'm going to go and look

00:21:35.440 and I'm going to examine,

00:21:36.620 you're not humble enough

00:21:37.720 to get in touch

00:21:38.260 with the sacred.

00:21:40.000 Right, right, right, right.

00:21:41.440 Well, you...

00:21:41.860 And you can imagine

00:21:42.580 that it has to be

00:21:43.320 the antithesis of pride

00:21:44.580 because pride

00:21:45.280 is perhaps the cardinal sin.

00:21:47.400 I mean,

00:21:47.920 it vies with resentment

00:21:49.160 and deceit,

00:21:50.100 I would say,

00:21:50.580 but it's certainly up there.

00:21:51.940 Okay, so Moses

00:21:53.060 allows himself

00:21:54.720 to be transformed

00:21:55.740 and compelled

00:21:56.500 in this interaction

00:21:57.520 with what calls to him.

00:21:59.220 Then the voice of...

00:22:00.620 The voice underlying being itself

00:22:02.380 reveals itself to him, right?

00:22:03.940 The essence of being,

00:22:05.060 let's say,

00:22:05.420 or the...

00:22:06.040 It's more than that.

00:22:08.220 Just as

00:22:08.980 the truth

00:22:10.920 is not instantiated

00:22:12.380 in a given truth

00:22:13.280 as you pointed out,

00:22:14.520 the principle of being

00:22:15.540 is not...

00:22:16.100 Okay, so that's what

00:22:16.940 Moses gets in touch with.

00:22:18.360 But then...

00:22:18.900 So what's very cool there

00:22:20.220 is that's also...

00:22:22.180 Now that he's grounded

00:22:24.500 in the right place

00:22:25.480 or now that he's established

00:22:27.020 a proper relationship

00:22:28.120 with the transcendent

00:22:29.400 and ineffable ideal,

00:22:31.280 he now becomes

00:22:32.440 the man who's capable

00:22:33.700 of...

00:22:34.320 Yes, of...

00:22:34.860 Fighting against tyranny

00:22:36.000 and destroying slavery.

00:22:37.380 Exactly.

00:22:38.620 And despite his inadequacies,

00:22:40.920 right?

00:22:41.140 Because he still can't speak.

00:22:43.720 He's...

00:22:44.560 Right.

00:22:45.160 So it doesn't matter.

00:22:46.280 The message there is

00:22:47.480 regardless of your...

00:22:50.200 Of the limitations

00:22:51.040 that have been imposed

00:22:51.980 upon you

00:22:52.500 by fate and circumstance,

00:22:53.700 if you delve deep enough,

00:22:56.160 if you follow your calling

00:22:57.980 with sufficient integrity,

00:23:00.380 you'll reach...

00:23:02.100 You'll form a relationship,

00:23:03.760 a covenantal relationship

00:23:04.920 with that which underlies

00:23:06.600 being itself,

00:23:07.500 and that will make you

00:23:08.480 the leader capable

00:23:09.360 of eternally opposing tyranny

00:23:11.180 and leading people

00:23:12.520 out of slavery.

00:23:14.020 Yeah.

00:23:14.360 I think all that is right.

00:23:15.600 You see,

00:23:15.820 you become a vehicle

00:23:16.480 of love.

00:23:17.600 You become a vehicle

00:23:18.400 of grace.

00:23:19.480 If you open yourself

00:23:20.720 to the transcendent mystery,

00:23:22.200 you open yourself

00:23:22.680 to God,

00:23:23.960 and the ego

00:23:24.700 has stopped

00:23:25.900 its blockage.

00:23:27.500 So the ego's...

00:23:29.000 You know,

00:23:29.380 it's always obsessed

00:23:30.380 with wealth, pleasure,

00:23:31.280 power, and honor,

00:23:32.040 says Aquinas.

00:23:33.320 So if I got those things

00:23:34.640 in the way,

00:23:35.660 then my ego

00:23:36.420 is seeking those

00:23:37.640 all the time,

00:23:38.340 and they're not bad

00:23:39.280 in themselves,

00:23:39.780 but they're not

00:23:40.200 the sumum bonum.

00:23:41.140 And so when I seek

00:23:42.420 all that stuff

00:23:42.980 and I become addicted

00:23:43.860 to them,

00:23:44.920 then I block

00:23:46.540 others' access

00:23:49.100 to the sacred

00:23:49.800 through me.

00:23:50.620 So I become a block

00:23:52.300 to the sacred

00:23:52.840 rather than a vehicle

00:23:53.620 for it.

00:23:54.400 The saints are those

00:23:55.460 who, right,

00:23:56.300 have taken off their shoes.

00:23:57.520 They know they're

00:23:57.940 on holy ground.

00:23:59.200 They understand,

00:24:00.500 they've come to understand,

00:24:01.520 and then God

00:24:03.380 can act through them.

00:24:04.800 And now Isaiah again,

00:24:06.160 you have accomplished

00:24:07.000 all we have done.

00:24:08.200 That happens when

00:24:09.440 you're in touch

00:24:10.160 with the sacred.

00:24:11.000 As long as God

00:24:11.900 is construed

00:24:12.720 as a competitive

00:24:13.420 supreme being,

00:24:14.420 that language

00:24:14.960 makes no sense.

00:24:16.240 I'd have to say,

00:24:16.840 no, no,

00:24:17.320 look, Lord,

00:24:17.760 I'm going to do it.

00:24:18.480 I'm going to accomplish it,

00:24:19.440 and thanks for your inspiration,

00:24:21.280 but I'll keep you

00:24:22.160 at a distance.

00:24:22.900 Or at the limit,

00:24:23.900 no, no,

00:24:24.140 I want you out

00:24:24.960 of the picture completely.

00:24:26.100 I'm going to do it.

00:24:27.300 But a religious

00:24:27.820 consciousness can say...

00:24:28.100 That's the revaluation

00:24:29.180 of all values

00:24:30.340 that Nietzsche spoke of.

00:24:31.520 And he said

00:24:32.460 that we should do that,

00:24:33.840 right?

00:24:34.020 That we should take

00:24:34.700 onto ourself

00:24:35.560 the right

00:24:37.260 and even the responsibility

00:24:38.720 of creating our own values.

00:24:40.140 So let me ask you

00:24:41.280 about this then

00:24:42.020 in regard to that.

00:24:44.180 So when God

00:24:46.540 is laying out

00:24:47.620 the rights

00:24:48.660 of human beings

00:24:50.020 in the garden,

00:24:51.340 and please correct me

00:24:52.120 if you think

00:24:52.540 I've got anything wrong

00:24:53.640 here theologically.

00:24:54.980 Okay,

00:24:55.340 so God basically

00:24:56.780 says to Adam and Eve,

00:24:58.340 now that the garden

00:24:59.200 has been created

00:25:00.400 that they can

00:25:02.440 utilize the resources

00:25:03.780 of the garden

00:25:04.520 as they see fit

00:25:06.440 except for one thing.

00:25:07.840 They can't eat

00:25:09.100 of the tree

00:25:09.600 of the knowledge

00:25:10.140 of good and evil.

00:25:11.140 Okay,

00:25:11.380 so now I've been

00:25:11.960 thinking through that.

00:25:12.860 What does that mean?

00:25:13.920 Well,

00:25:14.080 I think it means

00:25:14.960 the same thing

00:25:15.900 as taking

00:25:17.300 to yourself

00:25:18.600 the ability

00:25:20.760 to make

00:25:21.780 any moral claim

00:25:22.900 that you want

00:25:23.540 so that now

00:25:24.060 you become

00:25:24.680 the supreme master

00:25:25.800 of the moral

00:25:26.680 as such.

00:25:27.700 Okay,

00:25:27.900 now what Satan

00:25:28.780 offers Eve,

00:25:30.560 this is so interesting

00:25:31.600 because the serpent

00:25:33.080 is affiliated

00:25:35.040 with Satan

00:25:35.800 and Satan

00:25:36.360 is the spirit

00:25:37.180 of the intellect

00:25:37.840 that wants

00:25:38.380 to overthrow God.

00:25:39.360 It wants to put itself

00:25:40.180 in the highest place.

00:25:41.120 So it's something

00:25:41.560 like intellectual pretension.

00:25:43.480 And what the serpent

00:25:44.760 offers Eve,

00:25:45.840 he says this directly,

00:25:47.180 is you'll become

00:25:48.180 as gods,

00:25:48.960 knowing good and evil.

00:25:49.960 And the knowing

00:25:50.460 means master of.

00:25:52.820 You can take to yourself

00:25:54.120 the right to be

00:25:54.760 the master

00:25:55.260 of what's good and evil.

00:25:56.340 Okay,

00:25:56.580 now I would say

00:25:57.380 when people do that,

00:25:59.480 they bite off

00:26:00.380 more than they can chew.

00:26:02.260 So now Eve

00:26:03.160 starts to conceptualize

00:26:04.880 herself as

00:26:05.700 the

00:26:06.580 omnipotent feminine

00:26:08.820 that can clutch

00:26:09.600 everything to its breast,

00:26:11.520 right,

00:26:11.800 including the poisonous snake.

00:26:13.200 It can incorporate

00:26:14.000 any fruit

00:26:15.000 no matter how bitter

00:26:16.640 and poisonous.

00:26:18.000 That's her presumption.

00:26:19.280 It's a presumption

00:26:19.940 of pride.

00:26:20.940 And then she entices

00:26:21.980 Adam and she uses

00:26:23.500 his proclivity

00:26:24.420 to name and to categorize

00:26:26.000 what Adam,

00:26:27.580 what Eve approaches

00:26:29.300 Adam and says,

00:26:30.420 we should hearken

00:26:31.960 even to the snake,

00:26:33.140 even to what's

00:26:33.780 most poisonous.

00:26:34.560 We should incorporate

00:26:35.500 even what's most poisonous.

00:26:37.780 And Adam says,

00:26:38.740 I can do that.

00:26:40.160 And so you see

00:26:40.920 a twin kind of pride,

00:26:42.720 a feminine pride,

00:26:43.660 which is I can

00:26:44.580 incorporate everything

00:26:45.640 like and clutch it

00:26:47.180 to my breast

00:26:47.700 and a masculine pride,

00:26:48.800 which is I can now

00:26:49.780 reshape the ordering

00:26:51.140 principle itself

00:26:52.180 even to incorporate

00:26:53.600 that which is poisonous.

00:26:55.300 Now, if that's...

00:26:56.640 Okay, one more thing

00:26:57.520 on that

00:26:57.900 and then tell me

00:26:58.480 what you think of this.

00:26:59.280 There is this Christian

00:27:00.200 insistence

00:27:01.040 that suffering

00:27:02.920 is a consequence

00:27:03.660 of sin

00:27:04.360 and that's a weird one

00:27:05.760 because death

00:27:06.800 and deterioration

00:27:08.660 seem in some ways

00:27:09.620 to be built

00:27:10.140 into the structure

00:27:10.860 of existence,

00:27:11.400 but it's an open question

00:27:13.280 how much our tendency

00:27:15.720 to overreach pridefully

00:27:17.920 is the consequence

00:27:19.720 of our continual suffering,

00:27:21.700 right?

00:27:22.560 Because we certainly know

00:27:24.140 that when we suffer,

00:27:25.820 especially when we suffer

00:27:26.880 unbearably,

00:27:27.600 it's often because

00:27:28.540 we've taken upon ourselves

00:27:30.840 more than we have

00:27:34.300 the right to do.

00:27:35.360 We've exceeded

00:27:35.980 our domain of competence

00:27:37.240 and I think the false story

00:27:39.480 is exactly illustrating

00:27:41.940 this modern proclivity

00:27:43.760 that we have now

00:27:44.660 that Nietzsche put forward

00:27:46.180 as a moral command

00:27:47.960 that we have to become

00:27:50.080 the source of all value.

00:27:51.400 Now, if it is the case

00:27:52.860 that value itself

00:27:54.000 is encoded

00:27:55.120 in the structure of being,

00:27:56.940 which is certainly

00:27:57.680 the case semantically

00:27:58.740 and seems to be the case

00:28:00.020 in the realm

00:28:00.480 of the imagination,

00:28:01.920 then we literally

00:28:03.400 cannot take to ourselves

00:28:05.980 the right to transvalue

00:28:08.360 and establish all values

00:28:09.620 without ceasing to be human,

00:28:11.960 which is another inference

00:28:13.420 of the story, right?

00:28:14.780 Because that implicit moral order,

00:28:16.860 there's no difference

00:28:17.480 between that implicit moral order

00:28:18.920 and being human.

00:28:20.280 They're the same thing.

00:28:22.100 Yes.

00:28:23.220 We could talk all day

00:28:24.280 about this, of course,

00:28:25.020 but to your very first point,

00:28:27.640 I think it's very important

00:28:28.520 to point out that

00:28:29.720 the great permission

00:28:31.680 precedes the prohibition.

00:28:33.840 So, eat of all the trees.

00:28:36.420 See, and the Church Fathers

00:28:37.320 read that as God's desire

00:28:39.960 that we flourish.

00:28:41.880 There's this view that,

00:28:42.940 you know, Christians

00:28:43.480 are hung up on sin

00:28:44.720 and especially sexual sin,

00:28:46.440 and God is just, you know,

00:28:47.800 surveying us like Kim Jong-un,

00:28:50.100 and, you know,

00:28:50.480 we live in a totalitarian.

00:28:52.380 Come on.

00:28:53.540 The great truth of that story

00:28:55.520 is the permission

00:28:56.680 as God creates this universe

00:28:58.960 out of sheer gratuitous love

00:29:01.080 and then offers it to us

00:29:03.280 to take advantage of,

00:29:06.020 to pursue,

00:29:07.020 to love,

00:29:07.660 and to enjoy.

00:29:08.720 So, the fathers read that

00:29:10.140 as it's science and art

00:29:12.060 and it's politics

00:29:12.860 and it's literature

00:29:13.740 and it's friendship

00:29:14.560 and it's all the good things of life,

00:29:16.460 and God says,

00:29:17.620 yes, enjoy them.

00:29:19.660 In other words,

00:29:20.280 it's a structure of value

00:29:21.980 that's built into the being

00:29:23.680 of the created order,

00:29:24.800 and God says,

00:29:26.040 off you go.

00:29:27.000 Off you go.

00:29:27.740 Enter into it.

00:29:28.460 But, you're right.

00:29:29.660 The one thing you can't do

00:29:31.460 is pretend that you're

00:29:33.180 the criterion of value.

00:29:35.460 This is,

00:29:35.820 John Paul II

00:29:36.640 reiterated this ancient tradition

00:29:39.440 in his writings.

00:29:41.360 When you become

00:29:42.360 the criterion of good and evil,

00:29:44.140 the garden turns into a desert.

00:29:45.820 You get expelled from the garden

00:29:47.920 because now

00:29:48.760 you don't have the humility

00:29:51.020 to enter into the world of value.

00:29:53.600 You become a sort of

00:29:55.160 arbiter of value.

00:29:56.420 You're even a creator of value.

00:29:58.300 You're the evaluator of value.

00:30:00.940 Well, then you're distantiated.

00:30:01.040 Well, that's the accuser

00:30:02.380 and the adversary.

00:30:03.920 Yes.

00:30:04.660 Well, see,

00:30:05.040 because the minute you stand

00:30:06.800 apart from it

00:30:07.720 in that sort of judgmental way,

00:30:10.120 then you lose contact with it.

00:30:11.960 That's why the garden

00:30:12.720 becomes a desert.

00:30:14.060 God is expelling them,

00:30:15.220 not out of,

00:30:16.600 he's in a snit.

00:30:17.900 It's just spiritual physics.

00:30:19.600 It's just the way

00:30:20.400 it has to go.

00:30:21.640 As you say,

00:30:22.420 quite rightly,

00:30:23.160 you stop being human

00:30:24.440 when you lose your contact

00:30:26.040 with this objective value system.

00:30:29.820 And you become

00:30:30.700 the criterion of value

00:30:31.640 because essentially

00:30:32.660 you have made yourself

00:30:33.760 into God.

00:30:34.920 And that's,

00:30:35.760 in the Bible's reading,

00:30:37.320 always the fundamental problem.

00:30:40.360 It just rings the changes

00:30:42.440 on that theme.

00:30:43.340 That's always

00:30:44.800 the fundamental problem

00:30:45.860 is we turn ourselves

00:30:47.020 into God.

00:30:48.360 And what God's trying

00:30:49.320 to teach us

00:30:49.960 is how joyful,

00:30:52.040 how wonderful it becomes

00:30:53.200 when you forget

00:30:54.100 that goofy pretension.

00:30:55.960 You surrender

00:30:57.060 in faith.

00:30:58.720 You know,

00:30:59.180 there's that grossly

00:31:00.440 misunderstood word

00:31:01.320 of faith.

00:31:01.960 You surrender

00:31:02.620 in trust.

00:31:04.360 I'd put it that way,

00:31:05.420 in trust

00:31:06.100 to the world of value

00:31:07.500 at the top of which

00:31:08.520 is the sumum bonum,

00:31:09.820 God,

00:31:10.100 the source

00:31:10.640 of all value.

00:31:11.920 And when you surrender

00:31:12.920 to that,

00:31:13.780 it becomes a garden.

00:31:15.560 We're back

00:31:16.180 into the garden,

00:31:17.120 you know.

00:31:17.680 Now,

00:31:18.940 fast forward

00:31:19.680 all the way

00:31:20.000 to Jesus,

00:31:20.760 you know,

00:31:21.500 as God

00:31:22.240 undertakes

00:31:23.340 a rescue operation

00:31:24.240 to get us

00:31:24.700 out of this

00:31:25.360 bad consciousness

00:31:26.400 and to move us

00:31:27.680 toward fulfillment,

00:31:29.140 the fact that Jesus

00:31:30.000 is buried

00:31:31.100 in a garden

00:31:31.720 and then rises

00:31:32.640 from the dead

00:31:33.260 out of a garden

00:31:34.040 is not accidental,

00:31:36.880 you know.

00:31:37.380 So that's the story

00:31:38.780 of the Bible

00:31:39.260 in some ways

00:31:39.720 is would you people

00:31:40.500 please get over

00:31:41.460 this pretension

00:31:42.280 that you're divine,

00:31:43.980 that you're the center

00:31:44.700 of activity

00:31:45.660 because then you

00:31:47.100 will be unhappy,

00:31:48.480 period.

00:31:49.000 It just happens

00:31:49.660 like night follows day.

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00:32:57.120 Well, it's also, Bishop,

00:33:01.900 it's also very interesting

00:33:03.240 what people mean implicitly

00:33:06.380 when they say

00:33:07.600 that now they are

00:33:08.840 the source of all value

00:33:10.100 because that begs a question.

00:33:11.780 You know,

00:33:11.960 I think you mentioned

00:33:12.760 that it was Aquinas

00:33:13.720 who identified wealth,

00:33:15.260 pleasure, power, and honor.

00:33:16.740 So you might say,

00:33:17.980 okay, so let's say

00:33:19.080 that Sartre says,

00:33:21.840 do what thou wilt

00:33:23.740 shall be the whole

00:33:24.680 of the law.

00:33:25.500 That was actually

00:33:26.320 Alistair Crowley, right?

00:33:28.180 Okay, so,

00:33:28.960 but that's a good statement

00:33:30.560 of this self-centeredness.

00:33:32.600 Okay, so what are the

00:33:33.320 inevitable consequences

00:33:34.440 of this?

00:33:34.980 Okay, so one of them

00:33:36.320 is that you become

00:33:37.100 self-conscious.

00:33:39.460 Okay, and this is what

00:33:40.240 happens to Adam and Eve,

00:33:41.380 right?

00:33:41.580 They become self-conscious.

00:33:42.720 They become aware

00:33:43.280 of their own nakedness.

00:33:44.780 And the reason they do that

00:33:46.700 is because,

00:33:47.620 or the consequences of that,

00:33:49.600 if they've taken that

00:33:51.000 burden of valuation

00:33:52.120 onto themselves,

00:33:53.000 they're going to be

00:33:53.600 self-reflective

00:33:54.400 and self-conscious.

00:33:55.440 We know from

00:33:56.760 the psychological literature

00:33:58.080 that self-consciousness

00:34:00.660 and neurotic suffering

00:34:02.360 are conceptually

00:34:04.560 indistinguishable.

00:34:06.220 They occupy the same

00:34:07.500 semantic space.

00:34:08.700 Yeah, and we all know that

00:34:10.380 from experience.

00:34:11.900 We all know that.

00:34:12.960 That's Augustine

00:34:13.720 when you're

00:34:14.080 cravatus in se.

00:34:15.140 You've turned in

00:34:15.900 on yourself.

00:34:16.700 That's his definition

00:34:17.740 of sin.

00:34:18.660 But I would say

00:34:19.120 of unhappiness.

00:34:20.780 The ipso facto

00:34:21.740 you're unhappy.

00:34:22.840 And the best moments

00:34:24.040 of life,

00:34:24.400 we all know this,

00:34:25.480 are when we're

00:34:26.040 least self-conscious,

00:34:27.660 when we're lost

00:34:28.560 in a conversation.

00:34:29.260 That's when we're

00:34:29.560 walking with God.

00:34:31.260 Yes, right.

00:34:31.560 When we're least

00:34:32.080 self-conscious

00:34:32.820 is when we're walking

00:34:33.800 with God in the garden.

00:34:35.200 In the cool of the evening.

00:34:36.560 Right, right, right.

00:34:37.560 Right, right.

00:34:38.200 Okay, so now

00:34:39.020 here's the other flaw

00:34:40.860 as far as I can tell.

00:34:41.840 So now I'm going to

00:34:42.420 make the proposition

00:34:43.120 that I can do

00:34:44.380 whatever I want.

00:34:45.580 But that begs

00:34:46.300 the question.

00:34:47.280 As Nietzsche knew,

00:34:48.520 by the way,

00:34:49.600 what eye are you

00:34:50.860 talking about?

00:34:52.220 Because here's another

00:34:53.800 way of thinking about it.

00:34:55.020 You're going to be

00:34:55.760 possessed by something.

00:34:58.500 And you're either

00:34:59.480 going to be possessed

00:35:00.040 by the highest thing,

00:35:01.520 or you're going to be

00:35:02.960 possessed by something

00:35:04.060 lower,

00:35:04.800 or in the worst

00:35:05.660 possible case,

00:35:06.460 you could be possessed

00:35:07.440 by what is technically

00:35:09.000 lowest.

00:35:09.940 But that's the range

00:35:11.500 of options.

00:35:12.140 You're going to be

00:35:12.680 possessed by something.

00:35:13.640 Now, why would I say

00:35:14.500 possessed?

00:35:15.360 Well, it's partly

00:35:16.080 because you're socialized.

00:35:18.660 So, okay, now,

00:35:19.760 if the center fragments,

00:35:23.640 so I think it fragments

00:35:25.160 first into sex and power.

00:35:27.620 And you could see

00:35:28.680 the exploration of sex

00:35:29.980 with Freud

00:35:31.280 and the exploration

00:35:32.600 of power with Nietzsche.

00:35:34.200 But the next two gods,

00:35:36.360 so to speak,

00:35:37.180 that are lurking

00:35:38.100 under the

00:35:39.460 superordinate

00:35:40.740 concept of the divinity

00:35:42.640 are going to be something

00:35:43.620 like hedonic pleasure.

00:35:45.440 That would be

00:35:46.220 the whore of Babylon

00:35:47.160 in its worst possible

00:35:48.560 manifestation.

00:35:50.140 And power.

00:35:51.520 And that would be

00:35:52.160 the beast that you see

00:35:53.660 in Revelation

00:35:54.320 with the whore on its back.

00:35:56.100 Okay, so that means

00:35:57.700 that when the

00:35:58.720 postmodernist

00:35:59.980 or the modernist

00:36:00.920 or even the liberal

00:36:01.780 says,

00:36:02.900 I can do

00:36:03.800 what I want,

00:36:05.420 they fail to understand

00:36:06.780 that the I

00:36:07.660 that's now being

00:36:08.560 referred to

00:36:09.420 is likely

00:36:10.700 possession

00:36:12.800 of the self

00:36:13.980 by power

00:36:14.860 or hedonism

00:36:16.140 or some combination

00:36:17.000 of the two.

00:36:17.760 Because,

00:36:18.500 like,

00:36:18.820 when you say,

00:36:20.180 I want,

00:36:21.500 when you're angry,

00:36:22.220 for example,

00:36:22.960 I'm angry,

00:36:23.740 I want to hurt

00:36:24.440 this person.

00:36:25.920 What you're also saying,

00:36:27.320 even if you don't know it,

00:36:28.420 is that I am now

00:36:29.440 possessed by a spirit,

00:36:31.400 so it might be

00:36:32.000 the spirit of vengeful anger,

00:36:33.440 that has

00:36:34.300 taken possession

00:36:35.540 of me

00:36:35.980 so completely

00:36:36.940 that I fully

00:36:38.520 identify myself

00:36:40.140 with that whim.

00:36:42.280 And so,

00:36:42.660 it isn't a matter of

00:36:43.700 I versus God,

00:36:45.380 it's a measure

00:36:46.200 of subordinate

00:36:47.240 idols,

00:36:50.260 it's a matter

00:36:50.900 of the competition

00:36:51.860 between idols

00:36:53.040 that should be

00:36:53.740 properly subordinated

00:36:55.000 and that which should

00:36:56.200 be put in the higher place.

00:36:57.580 And one of those

00:36:58.320 would be,

00:36:59.000 we talked about power,

00:37:00.160 we talked about sex,

00:37:01.160 but we could also

00:37:02.200 think about that,

00:37:03.100 that's the pretentious

00:37:04.160 intellect,

00:37:04.600 it's the thing

00:37:05.980 that's most likely

00:37:06.780 to possess you

00:37:07.600 and it's the thing

00:37:08.260 that's most likely

00:37:08.960 to foment rebellion

00:37:09.920 against God

00:37:10.640 and that's why

00:37:11.360 Satan is referred to

00:37:13.020 as Luciferian,

00:37:14.320 Luciferian in his pretensions

00:37:15.760 by people like Milton.

00:37:17.540 Well,

00:37:17.880 you're pointing your finger

00:37:18.820 on something very ancient

00:37:19.900 in the spiritual tradition

00:37:21.420 which is true self,

00:37:22.480 false self.

00:37:23.260 And you go right back

00:37:24.040 to St. Paul.

00:37:24.860 When Paul says,

00:37:26.200 casually enough,

00:37:27.440 it's no longer

00:37:28.080 I who live,

00:37:29.500 it's Christ who lives

00:37:30.640 in me.

00:37:31.600 Now,

00:37:31.900 notice how like Isaiah

00:37:33.300 that is,

00:37:33.800 right?

00:37:33.920 You have accomplished

00:37:35.020 all we have done.

00:37:36.340 You look at Paul's letters,

00:37:37.900 you'd never get the sense

00:37:39.280 that Paul has somehow

00:37:40.440 lost his personality.

00:37:42.380 I mean,

00:37:42.600 Paul's personality

00:37:43.420 is on every page

00:37:44.340 of his letters.

00:37:45.080 You can,

00:37:45.500 he's palpable,

00:37:46.720 right?

00:37:47.200 But he can still say,

00:37:48.440 it's no longer I,

00:37:50.200 the old self,

00:37:51.800 who live,

00:37:52.400 it's Christ who lives

00:37:53.420 in me.

00:37:54.120 And that doesn't mean

00:37:55.160 Christ has kicked me out.

00:37:58.700 No, no,

00:37:59.100 I'm like a burning bush now.

00:38:00.860 I'm on fire,

00:38:01.900 but I'm not consumed.

00:38:03.800 So,

00:38:04.200 it's the false self

00:38:05.180 that's given way

00:38:05.800 to the true self.

00:38:08.220 And that's the heart

00:38:08.980 of the spiritual tradition

00:38:09.860 is when Jesus says,

00:38:11.320 you know,

00:38:11.820 metanoiate,

00:38:12.700 and it's these opening speech

00:38:14.780 in the Gospel of Mark.

00:38:15.820 And we say,

00:38:16.620 repent,

00:38:17.420 you know,

00:38:17.720 fair enough

00:38:18.120 as a translation,

00:38:19.240 but literally,

00:38:20.000 meta,

00:38:20.640 news,

00:38:21.620 go beyond the mind

00:38:22.680 you have.

00:38:23.620 So,

00:38:24.120 you've got a fallen mind,

00:38:26.040 and that's what

00:38:26.500 you're talking about,

00:38:27.160 a mind that's been

00:38:27.840 possessed by wealth

00:38:29.340 or pleasure,

00:38:29.980 honor,

00:38:30.440 or the love of knowledge,

00:38:31.440 whatever it is.

00:38:32.260 It's an idol.

00:38:33.540 So,

00:38:34.160 metanoiate,

00:38:35.060 go beyond the mind

00:38:36.240 you have.

00:38:37.560 Believe the good news.

00:38:39.120 So,

00:38:39.360 what he's saying is,

00:38:40.400 get rid of the old self.

00:38:41.600 The good news is

00:38:42.500 that I have come.

00:38:43.840 I,

00:38:44.060 the Christ,

00:38:44.540 have come.

00:38:45.220 So,

00:38:45.480 you should be able

00:38:46.040 to say with Paul,

00:38:47.380 it's no longer

00:38:47.960 that old self

00:38:49.080 that lives,

00:38:49.620 it's Christ who lives

00:38:50.480 in me.

00:38:51.280 There's the whole

00:38:52.200 spiritual life,

00:38:53.260 you know.

00:38:53.680 I also thought of

00:38:54.660 my fellow Minnesotan,

00:38:56.660 Bob Dylan,

00:38:57.300 you know,

00:38:57.560 you've got to serve

00:38:59.160 somebody.

00:38:59.900 It might be the devil,

00:39:00.940 it might be the Lord.

00:39:02.000 And that sounds

00:39:02.720 simplistic,

00:39:03.160 but it comes from

00:39:03.900 the book of Joshua,

00:39:04.780 and it's dead right.

00:39:05.800 It's what you just said.

00:39:07.960 We're possessed

00:39:08.600 by something.

00:39:10.240 It's going to be

00:39:11.060 the sumum bonum,

00:39:12.240 or it's some

00:39:12.940 lesser good

00:39:14.460 that has turned

00:39:15.620 into an idol,

00:39:16.480 and it's going to

00:39:17.060 start manipulating us.

00:39:18.580 But all you've got to do,

00:39:19.940 that's,

00:39:20.300 you know,

00:39:20.500 Paul Tillich said that,

00:39:21.460 just find out

00:39:22.260 what people worship.

00:39:23.760 That's all you need

00:39:24.480 to know about them.

00:39:25.280 The rest will follow.

00:39:26.780 So,

00:39:27.280 you've got to serve

00:39:28.060 somebody.

00:39:28.960 So,

00:39:29.200 when you meet

00:39:29.640 a person,

00:39:30.500 and maybe they're

00:39:31.680 suffering,

00:39:32.200 you're,

00:39:32.400 as a psychologist,

00:39:33.280 I,

00:39:33.540 as a priest,

00:39:34.380 over the years,

00:39:34.880 you deal with people

00:39:35.420 who are suffering.

00:39:36.540 I always found

00:39:37.400 that's a super

00:39:38.240 illuminating question.

00:39:39.520 Try to figure out,

00:39:40.460 okay,

00:39:40.560 what are you worshiping?

00:39:41.360 There's something

00:39:41.860 that's the center

00:39:42.980 of gravity.

00:39:44.060 If it's not God,

00:39:45.260 it's going to cause you—

00:39:46.520 That's that implicit God.

00:39:48.000 Well,

00:39:48.240 that's what you do

00:39:48.760 when you go to a movie,

00:39:49.820 man,

00:39:50.060 is you take a—

00:39:51.980 you try to infer

00:39:52.920 the aim of the protagonist.

00:39:54.560 And basically,

00:39:55.980 by inferring the aim,

00:39:57.160 you're inferring

00:39:58.780 the central theme

00:40:00.420 around which

00:40:01.280 the entire personality

00:40:03.380 rotates.

00:40:04.580 And there is no difference

00:40:05.720 between that

00:40:06.300 and understanding.

00:40:07.360 Those are the same thing.

00:40:08.500 Okay,

00:40:08.760 so,

00:40:09.020 okay,

00:40:09.740 so,

00:40:11.200 as I said,

00:40:11.760 I've been writing this book,

00:40:12.940 walking through

00:40:13.500 the biblical corpus.

00:40:14.660 And so,

00:40:16.240 once Adam and Eve

00:40:18.180 are thrown out of the garden,

00:40:19.320 you have this situation

00:40:20.320 where they have to work,

00:40:23.180 right?

00:40:23.420 They're condemned to work

00:40:24.360 and to slog away,

00:40:26.140 let's say.

00:40:26.800 And so,

00:40:27.760 work becomes integral

00:40:28.880 to adaptation.

00:40:30.060 Now,

00:40:30.680 and that begs

00:40:31.360 a further question,

00:40:32.240 which is,

00:40:33.120 well,

00:40:33.280 what is the best possible work?

00:40:34.880 What is the greatest

00:40:35.520 possible work?

00:40:36.980 Now,

00:40:37.920 as far as I can tell,

00:40:39.200 there's no difference

00:40:39.980 between sacrifice and work.

00:40:41.660 They're isomorphic concepts.

00:40:44.060 And the reason for that

00:40:44.960 is that

00:40:45.420 here's a definition of work,

00:40:47.480 and you tell me

00:40:48.000 what you think about this.

00:40:48.920 is so,

00:40:50.160 work is the sacrifice

00:40:51.340 of the present

00:40:52.180 to the future.

00:40:53.720 To the future, yeah.

00:40:54.700 Right,

00:40:54.940 now,

00:40:55.240 if you're doing it optimally,

00:40:57.600 it would be the integration

00:40:59.080 of the present

00:40:59.820 and the future.

00:41:00.540 But if it's work,

00:41:01.500 it's the sacrifice.

00:41:03.060 Okay,

00:41:03.300 so then the next question is,

00:41:04.700 okay,

00:41:06.180 what should you best sacrifice?

00:41:09.840 What's the sacrifice

00:41:10.880 that is most pleasing to God?

00:41:12.780 Well,

00:41:13.020 the thing we see happening

00:41:14.040 in the biblical corpus

00:41:15.040 is that's exactly

00:41:16.060 the center concern

00:41:18.460 of the next story

00:41:19.820 because the story,

00:41:21.620 exactly.

00:41:22.360 And so,

00:41:22.840 these are two patterns

00:41:24.200 of sacrifice,

00:41:25.420 proper and improper,

00:41:27.040 right?

00:41:27.660 Bitter and resentful

00:41:28.640 versus upward-looking

00:41:29.800 and faithful,

00:41:30.540 let's say.

00:41:31.540 Okay,

00:41:31.860 and the sacrifice of Cain

00:41:33.400 is motivated

00:41:34.980 by Cain's willingness

00:41:35.960 to allow himself

00:41:36.920 to be possessed

00:41:37.720 by the spirit

00:41:38.480 of bitterness

00:41:38.940 and resentment

00:41:39.680 because that's what

00:41:41.400 God calls him out on.

00:41:43.320 Okay,

00:41:43.640 so now we could say

00:41:45.520 the rest of the Bible

00:41:47.700 is an attempt

00:41:48.400 to work out

00:41:49.360 the definition

00:41:51.280 of the highest form

00:41:53.000 of sacrifice.

00:41:54.540 Now,

00:41:55.040 you see that

00:41:55.680 being played with

00:41:58.520 across a whole array

00:42:00.180 of great stories.

00:42:01.260 That's the stories

00:42:02.400 of the prophets' lives,

00:42:03.580 let's say,

00:42:04.380 and the encoding

00:42:05.380 of the lessons

00:42:06.500 of their lives

00:42:07.120 in the law.

00:42:08.320 But then you have,

00:42:09.220 okay,

00:42:09.480 now that sort of

00:42:10.580 culminates in some ways

00:42:11.900 with the story

00:42:13.020 of Job,

00:42:14.720 right?

00:42:15.040 Because Job

00:42:15.800 and the pattern

00:42:17.420 of sacrifice

00:42:18.180 that's exemplified

00:42:19.020 by Job,

00:42:19.660 okay,

00:42:19.880 so what happens

00:42:20.460 to Job

00:42:20.940 is that

00:42:21.420 almost all

00:42:23.200 the unjust

00:42:25.360 suffering of the world

00:42:26.620 is laid on his shoulders.

00:42:28.840 Okay,

00:42:29.420 and what Job says,

00:42:30.400 and please correct me

00:42:31.320 if I'm wrong,

00:42:31.960 what Job says,

00:42:33.620 and Job is suffering

00:42:35.040 so much

00:42:35.780 and so unjustly

00:42:36.920 that his wife

00:42:37.620 comes to him

00:42:38.220 and says,

00:42:38.800 the only thing

00:42:39.700 left for you

00:42:40.380 is to curse,

00:42:41.360 shake your fist

00:42:42.060 at God

00:42:42.560 and die.

00:42:44.180 Right.

00:42:44.520 Mrs. Job,

00:42:45.020 one of the great figures

00:42:45.860 in the Bible.

00:42:46.780 Exactly,

00:42:47.460 exactly.

00:42:48.280 Well,

00:42:48.540 and she is,

00:42:49.500 she's upset

00:42:50.340 by what's happening

00:42:51.260 to him

00:42:51.600 and can't see a way out.

00:42:52.740 Now,

00:42:52.980 Job says,

00:42:54.740 two things.

00:42:55.160 She's right,

00:42:55.480 she's the voice

00:42:56.060 of so many today.

00:42:57.400 They resent God.

00:42:58.360 Absolutely, man,

00:42:58.780 absolutely.

00:42:59.500 Just curse God

00:43:00.400 and die.

00:43:00.920 I mean,

00:43:01.060 who needs all this

00:43:02.040 transcendent nonsense?

00:43:02.780 Exactly,

00:43:03.700 exactly,

00:43:04.420 exactly.

00:43:04.780 Well,

00:43:05.060 or the whole bloody game,

00:43:06.500 like that's

00:43:07.720 Gertha's Mephistopheles.

00:43:09.080 It's like suffering,

00:43:10.520 the world is so rife

00:43:11.600 with suffering,

00:43:12.220 it would be better

00:43:12.780 if the whole game

00:43:13.420 just ceased.

00:43:14.240 Right.

00:43:14.560 That'd be the antinatalists.

00:43:15.900 Right.

00:43:16.140 Well,

00:43:16.260 it's a powerful argument.

00:43:18.080 Curse God and die.

00:43:18.880 Okay,

00:43:19.280 but Job says,

00:43:20.620 no,

00:43:21.360 I refuse to do that

00:43:23.240 and I refuse to do it

00:43:24.600 on principle.

00:43:25.440 I'm going to assume,

00:43:27.180 so this is a statement

00:43:28.140 of faith,

00:43:28.640 I'm not going to

00:43:29.640 abandon my faith

00:43:30.600 in the essential goodness

00:43:31.640 of being

00:43:32.200 regardless of the

00:43:34.440 proximal evidence.

00:43:36.500 And I'm not going

00:43:37.300 to curse myself

00:43:38.440 finally

00:43:39.220 because although

00:43:40.220 I'm not a perfect man,

00:43:42.020 I am a good man.

00:43:43.620 And so I'm not going

00:43:44.600 to say that everything

00:43:45.520 that's happened to me,

00:43:46.600 I deserve in some

00:43:47.920 causal manner.

00:43:49.560 And I'm certainly

00:43:50.600 not going to say

00:43:51.420 that the structure

00:43:52.140 of being itself

00:43:52.920 is corrupt.

00:43:53.720 Now,

00:43:54.060 you can think about

00:43:54.940 that practically.

00:43:55.880 So imagine if you're

00:43:56.700 in a situation like Job's

00:43:58.100 where your world

00:43:59.280 has fallen apart

00:44:00.220 and maybe even

00:44:02.560 genuinely to some degree

00:44:04.240 through no clear fault

00:44:05.700 of your own

00:44:06.520 or no fault

00:44:07.880 that couldn't be laid

00:44:09.620 at the feet

00:44:10.080 of good men in general.

00:44:11.780 What's your best strategy?

00:44:13.300 Well,

00:44:13.600 I can tell you

00:44:14.280 as a clinician,

00:44:15.380 if you take

00:44:16.280 your suffering

00:44:16.940 and you allow that

00:44:18.520 to be transformed

00:44:19.480 into a resentful bitterness,

00:44:21.760 there's no limit

00:44:22.720 to the amount of hell

00:44:23.920 you can turn anything into.

00:44:26.180 Right.

00:44:26.200 You'll deepen your suffering.

00:44:28.320 Right.

00:44:28.940 You multiply it immensely.

00:44:30.960 Yeah.

00:44:31.320 You know,

00:44:31.640 whereas if you're suffering

00:44:32.860 and you can,

00:44:33.820 and you still strive

00:44:34.800 to find good in that

00:44:36.120 and you still maintain

00:44:36.960 your faith

00:44:37.700 in the essential goodness

00:44:38.820 of being,

00:44:39.960 then instantly

00:44:41.460 that ameliorates

00:44:42.440 your suffering

00:44:43.020 to some degree.

00:44:43.860 It puts you

00:44:44.280 in the best possible position

00:44:45.740 to deal with it,

00:44:47.300 but it also helps you embody

00:44:49.320 like this supreme

00:44:50.140 metaphysical claim.

00:44:51.820 Okay,

00:44:52.040 so now let's,

00:44:52.780 let's take that

00:44:53.680 one step further.

00:44:54.660 So I think you see

00:44:56.140 the full flowering

00:44:57.120 of this

00:44:57.520 in the story of Christ.

00:44:58.900 And I mean this technically

00:45:00.080 because,

00:45:01.680 so the question is,

00:45:03.240 what sacrifice

00:45:04.640 is most acceptable to God?

00:45:06.400 So what work works best

00:45:08.180 across all possible situations

00:45:10.620 and places?

00:45:12.220 And Christ embodies

00:45:13.640 the spirit of

00:45:14.820 the sacrifice

00:45:16.880 of what's lesser

00:45:18.400 about the self,

00:45:20.300 regardless of circumstance.

00:45:22.200 So,

00:45:22.580 because his story

00:45:23.520 is an ultimate tragedy,

00:45:24.840 right?

00:45:25.000 Because he has to face

00:45:25.880 betrayal,

00:45:27.520 tyranny,

00:45:28.680 the collapse

00:45:29.580 of his friendships,

00:45:30.940 a humiliating death

00:45:32.020 in front of his mother.

00:45:33.000 Like,

00:45:33.160 it is the concatenation

00:45:34.540 of all the potential

00:45:36.340 dimensions of suffering

00:45:37.900 that is outlined

00:45:39.300 to some degree

00:45:40.020 in Job.

00:45:40.960 And Christ's

00:45:42.820 example

00:45:44.040 is that

00:45:44.800 you

00:45:46.120 establish a firm

00:45:48.160 relationship with good

00:45:49.300 despite all that.

00:45:50.420 you continue to aim up

00:45:52.160 in love

00:45:52.720 and truth

00:45:53.700 despite all that.

00:45:55.480 And by doing so,

00:45:58.000 you simultaneously

00:45:59.000 transform

00:46:00.020 and transcend

00:46:00.580 all that.

00:46:01.420 And that that's

00:46:02.000 the proper model

00:46:02.900 for the highest

00:46:04.020 form of being.

00:46:05.100 My suspicions are

00:46:06.260 that that pattern

00:46:07.200 of voluntary

00:46:08.180 self-sacrifice,

00:46:09.860 which is also key

00:46:10.880 to therapeutic

00:46:11.560 transformation,

00:46:12.920 I suspect

00:46:13.660 that that pattern

00:46:14.580 is isomorphic

00:46:16.140 with the

00:46:16.860 good

00:46:17.700 that lies

00:46:18.520 at the center

00:46:19.340 of the network

00:46:20.520 of conceptions

00:46:21.380 of good.

00:46:22.220 And I think

00:46:22.780 that that's

00:46:23.240 what the biblical

00:46:23.840 revelation is,

00:46:24.820 is that

00:46:25.220 there is no difference

00:46:26.780 between the Son

00:46:27.560 and the Father.

00:46:28.240 That would be

00:46:28.800 how you would

00:46:29.600 conceptualize

00:46:30.640 that notion

00:46:31.280 in religious terms,

00:46:32.740 is that

00:46:33.180 if the spirit

00:46:34.720 of Yahweh

00:46:35.380 was properly

00:46:36.160 embodied

00:46:36.780 in a human soul,

00:46:39.680 then it would be

00:46:40.660 that spirit,

00:46:41.360 it would be

00:46:41.680 the spirit

00:46:42.160 of voluntary

00:46:42.700 self-sacrifice

00:46:43.700 as the proper

00:46:45.000 offering to God

00:46:45.840 that would prevail.

00:46:46.820 And then I would say

00:46:47.640 further,

00:46:48.380 okay,

00:46:48.600 let's think

00:46:49.080 about this

00:46:49.700 as

00:46:51.080 practically

00:46:52.980 and

00:46:53.580 what would you say?

00:46:56.920 Realistically

00:46:57.440 as possible.

00:46:58.460 We know,

00:46:59.400 we know this

00:47:00.540 in the therapeutic

00:47:01.140 realm.

00:47:02.900 The best pathway

00:47:04.260 forward is

00:47:05.000 to face

00:47:05.660 the things

00:47:06.220 that challenge,

00:47:07.740 confront,

00:47:08.100 and threaten

00:47:08.460 you voluntarily.

00:47:09.840 Right?

00:47:10.260 We know that

00:47:10.940 that is transformative.

00:47:12.480 We know that

00:47:13.040 that improves

00:47:13.580 people's mental health.

00:47:14.560 We know that

00:47:15.080 it makes them braver.

00:47:16.140 What you do

00:47:16.900 with the person

00:47:17.520 in therapy

00:47:18.080 is you find out

00:47:19.120 what obstacles

00:47:20.360 are standing

00:47:21.000 in their way,

00:47:21.620 stopping them

00:47:22.220 and making them bitter.

00:47:23.800 And you

00:47:24.500 plot and strategize

00:47:26.360 with them

00:47:26.860 about how they can

00:47:28.220 decompose

00:47:29.700 that

00:47:30.080 obstacle

00:47:31.820 into smaller

00:47:32.960 constituent elements

00:47:34.040 and face it.

00:47:35.260 And that's the same

00:47:36.120 thing as facing

00:47:36.940 the serpent

00:47:37.520 on the cross,

00:47:38.380 the brazen serpent

00:47:39.620 on the cross

00:47:40.380 that Moses has

00:47:41.820 his people do

00:47:42.500 when they're

00:47:43.000 stranded in the desert.

00:47:45.020 You bet.

00:47:45.300 It heals them.

00:47:45.980 It's the healing powder.

00:47:48.100 It's the pharmacos.

00:47:50.040 You've just touched

00:47:50.860 on pretty much

00:47:51.480 every major theme

00:47:52.420 in metaphysics

00:47:53.040 and theology

00:47:53.600 in that last bit.

00:47:56.260 There's so much there,

00:47:57.060 Jordan,

00:47:57.280 we talk about.

00:47:59.100 You know,

00:47:59.380 for the Job thing,

00:48:00.480 that's an ancient

00:48:01.380 connection in the tradition

00:48:03.260 to connect Job

00:48:04.160 and Jesus.

00:48:05.380 And Job,

00:48:05.960 of course,

00:48:06.180 the end of the book

00:48:06.760 saying,

00:48:07.080 I know that my

00:48:07.760 Redeemer lives.

00:48:08.620 I mean,

00:48:08.820 even in the midst

00:48:10.260 of his great suffering

00:48:11.120 and then Jesus himself

00:48:12.680 who is the Redeemer

00:48:13.760 in person

00:48:14.320 and he is associated

00:48:15.700 appropriately with Job

00:48:16.720 because what Jesus

00:48:18.040 takes on

00:48:18.900 is precisely that.

00:48:20.440 Job is a kind

00:48:21.000 of limit case

00:48:21.800 of suffering

00:48:22.460 because it's not

00:48:23.720 just suffering,

00:48:24.660 it's suffering

00:48:25.200 that's undeserved

00:48:26.360 or at least,

00:48:26.820 you know,

00:48:26.940 for the most part,

00:48:27.580 undeserved.

00:48:28.640 So it's all of that

00:48:30.060 and you as a therapist,

00:48:31.480 I have a priest,

00:48:32.160 we've met Job

00:48:33.100 a number of times.

00:48:34.040 I mean,

00:48:34.180 I know I have

00:48:34.720 in my pastoral work.

00:48:36.240 People that are

00:48:36.760 in that kind

00:48:37.760 of suffering.

00:48:38.820 metaphysically speaking

00:48:41.520 at the heart of it

00:48:42.120 it seems to me

00:48:42.720 is this claim

00:48:43.500 that being and good

00:48:45.540 are always more

00:48:46.840 fundamental than evil

00:48:48.120 and that's because evil

00:48:48.980 is best characterized

00:48:50.300 as a privatio,

00:48:52.040 right?

00:48:52.220 It's a privation

00:48:53.300 of the good.

00:48:54.400 So evil is always

00:48:55.380 parasitic upon the good

00:48:56.700 which means no matter

00:48:57.720 how intrusive it is

00:48:59.700 and no matter how

00:49:00.480 kind of bold it is,

00:49:02.600 it's parasitic.

00:49:04.600 It can only exist

00:49:05.940 in and through

00:49:07.060 the good.

00:49:07.700 So as Paul would say,

00:49:09.440 where sin abounds,

00:49:11.120 grace abounds the more.

00:49:12.980 So sin can never

00:49:14.500 outpace grace.

00:49:16.760 Evil can never be

00:49:18.040 greater than the good.

00:49:19.580 And so Job,

00:49:20.540 his great,

00:49:21.080 you might say,

00:49:21.580 spiritual genius

00:49:22.580 is to see that,

00:49:24.820 is to see it.

00:49:25.680 Now how did he

00:49:26.360 come to see it?

00:49:28.420 He was very good

00:49:30.040 in his dealings

00:49:30.840 with his friends

00:49:32.120 who were kind of

00:49:33.280 lousy friends.

00:49:34.100 They were great

00:49:34.520 for the first seven days

00:49:35.460 when they sat

00:49:35.960 with him in silence.

00:49:36.920 And you and I

00:49:37.580 know that too

00:49:38.160 when you're dealing

00:49:38.580 with people

00:49:38.960 in great suffering.

00:49:40.140 Often it's silence

00:49:41.540 and solidarity

00:49:43.760 is the best thing

00:49:44.640 you can do.

00:49:45.620 When they start to speak.

00:49:46.420 But that's participation

00:49:47.260 in their suffering.

00:49:48.960 Yeah, right, right.

00:49:49.900 And that's what's

00:49:50.360 so helpful about it,

00:49:52.400 therapeutic about it.

00:49:53.540 But then they start

00:49:54.600 engaging in the most

00:49:55.540 kind of trite

00:49:56.520 theological discourse.

00:49:59.340 By the way,

00:49:59.800 because,

00:50:00.200 oh Job,

00:50:00.580 you must have done

00:50:01.160 something wrong.

00:50:01.760 It's clearly,

00:50:02.400 you know,

00:50:02.660 it's just evil comes

00:50:04.060 because you do things wrong.

00:50:05.540 That's a very naive level

00:50:06.960 of spiritual understanding.

00:50:10.420 And I think it's interesting

00:50:11.420 because it's the only time

00:50:12.320 in the Bible

00:50:12.760 where God upbraids people

00:50:15.180 for their bad theology.

00:50:16.960 Because remember

00:50:17.280 at the end of the story

00:50:18.020 when God says,

00:50:19.480 unlike your friends

00:50:20.580 who spoke ill of me,

00:50:22.880 your friends

00:50:23.480 who did not speak well of me.

00:50:25.160 So God is taking

00:50:26.180 to task bad theology.

00:50:28.120 And the bad theology

00:50:29.100 is this silly,

00:50:30.560 trivial, superficial.

00:50:32.460 What God helps Job to see

00:50:34.420 is this metaphysical truth,

00:50:36.360 right,

00:50:36.640 that evil is always

00:50:38.680 parasitic upon the good,

00:50:39.840 but also this more

00:50:41.060 theological truth

00:50:42.220 that your overweening intellect

00:50:45.460 is just this little,

00:50:47.360 tiny, teeny, finite mind

00:50:50.560 that can take in

00:50:51.260 a tiny swath of reality.

00:50:53.960 And Job,

00:50:54.440 did you hear about,

00:50:55.260 do you know about

00:50:55.740 Leviathan and Behemoth

00:50:57.760 and these creatures of mine,

00:50:59.740 do you know about them

00:51:00.440 under the sea?

00:51:01.280 You can't even see them,

00:51:02.280 but they're my creatures.

00:51:03.700 And, you know,

00:51:04.100 where were you

00:51:04.520 when I laid the foundations

00:51:05.540 of the world?

00:51:06.020 And where were you

00:51:06.640 when I sang at the dawn

00:51:08.100 and all this?

00:51:09.060 Is he's trying to break Job

00:51:10.420 out of this curvatus in se,

00:51:13.020 my little consciousness

00:51:14.180 that has this overweening pride.

00:51:17.580 No, there's no justification

00:51:19.240 for what I'm going through.

00:51:20.620 There's no morally sufficient reason

00:51:24.020 for what I'm going through.

00:51:25.600 Where were you?

00:51:26.280 You know, so it's a metaphysical move

00:51:28.700 if you want,

00:51:29.240 and it's a theological move

00:51:30.480 where Job is broken out of that.

00:51:32.980 Can I say a quick thing

00:51:33.860 about sacrifice?

00:51:35.380 Because to me,

00:51:35.940 that's such a central notion

00:51:37.480 in the Bible.

00:51:38.940 The fact that Adam is working

00:51:41.580 not just after the fall,

00:51:43.000 but before the fall.

00:51:43.920 So he's given the task

00:51:45.100 of tilling the garden.

00:51:47.020 So John Paul II saw this,

00:51:48.400 that we shouldn't construe work

00:51:50.040 as simply a kind of result of sin

00:51:52.780 or a punishment for sin.

00:51:53.860 And work there,

00:51:55.640 you might construe as art

00:51:57.780 and science and philosophy

00:51:59.160 and, you know,

00:51:59.860 all these wonderful things

00:52:01.040 that are just good in themselves

00:52:02.140 and that call forth our powers.

00:52:05.000 And we know what that feels like.

00:52:06.360 You know, when you,

00:52:07.260 it's a strain in a way

00:52:09.440 to, you know,

00:52:10.200 read a philosophical book

00:52:11.420 and enter into

00:52:12.120 a philosophical argument.

00:52:13.280 But it's also,

00:52:13.900 it's wonderful.

00:52:14.820 It's not the result of sin

00:52:16.200 or the fall.

00:52:16.840 It's just a,

00:52:17.320 it's an exercise of your powers.

00:52:19.460 But furthermore, this,

00:52:20.980 the term in Hebrew,

00:52:21.900 I forget what it is exactly,

00:52:22.980 but the term for the tilling

00:52:24.540 of the soil

00:52:25.360 is the same term used

00:52:27.120 for the care of the temple.

00:52:29.640 Eden is a,

00:52:30.720 is a primordial temple,

00:52:32.280 which means a place

00:52:34.040 where God is rightly praised.

00:52:35.640 So the sumum bonum

00:52:37.360 is properly aligned

00:52:39.660 with,

00:52:40.260 with the human mind

00:52:41.100 and will and body.

00:52:42.280 And that's why Eden

00:52:43.480 is a temple.

00:52:45.240 The expulsion from the garden

00:52:46.980 is yes,

00:52:47.680 into a desert,

00:52:48.380 but it's also

00:52:49.160 in exile from the temple.

00:52:52.180 We're not praising right.

00:52:54.220 Now,

00:52:54.780 read that as a master motif

00:52:56.460 of the entire Bible.

00:52:57.320 What goes wrong with us?

00:52:58.420 Bad praise.

00:52:59.560 I start praising

00:53:00.600 the wrong things.

00:53:01.900 Idolatry

00:53:02.380 is the fundamental problem.

00:53:04.040 And then,

00:53:04.660 look at the story

00:53:05.360 of the Old Testament

00:53:06.100 is trying to discover

00:53:08.200 the temple again.

00:53:10.620 You know,

00:53:11.240 Pharaoh,

00:53:12.420 let my people go

00:53:13.620 that they might worship

00:53:15.500 the Lord in the desert.

00:53:16.800 They might find a place

00:53:18.000 to worship.

00:53:18.900 And then they build

00:53:19.580 the great tabernacle

00:53:20.540 in the desert

00:53:21.140 while they're on the move,

00:53:22.660 Mount Sinai and so on.

00:53:23.840 And then finally,

00:53:24.780 the Solomon temple

00:53:26.140 in Jerusalem.

00:53:27.700 Jesus,

00:53:28.340 who says,

00:53:28.860 I'll tear down

00:53:29.700 that temple

00:53:30.360 and in three days

00:53:31.100 rebuild it,

00:53:32.160 referring to the temple

00:53:33.020 of his body.

00:53:33.780 And then,

00:53:34.480 Paul,

00:53:35.320 and you,

00:53:36.540 members of Christ's

00:53:37.840 mystical body,

00:53:39.120 you're the temple.

00:53:40.220 You know,

00:53:40.920 so that theme

00:53:42.080 of how do we bring

00:53:43.340 people back

00:53:44.120 to right worship,

00:53:45.680 a right ordering

00:53:46.600 to the sumum bonum,

00:53:48.160 that's the whole Bible,

00:53:49.580 you know.

00:53:50.140 Now,

00:53:50.660 see,

00:53:51.060 go back to Job

00:53:51.900 for a second

00:53:52.400 because what gets

00:53:53.280 in the way

00:53:53.960 of right worship?

00:53:55.120 Lots of things.

00:53:56.080 But one of them

00:53:56.780 can be intense suffering.

00:53:59.200 There's Mrs. Job.

00:54:00.740 There's Mrs. Job.

00:54:01.780 Curse God and die.

00:54:03.040 So cursing God

00:54:04.100 is the opposite

00:54:04.580 of praising God.

00:54:05.740 So she's saying,

00:54:06.760 you know,

00:54:06.920 your suffering

00:54:07.460 is so intense,

00:54:08.220 Job,

00:54:08.420 that just give up

00:54:09.280 on this project

00:54:10.120 of praising God.

00:54:11.620 That's why that book

00:54:12.620 is so pivotal

00:54:13.280 because even

00:54:14.500 at this limit case

00:54:15.780 of suffering,

00:54:18.420 Job doesn't curse God.

00:54:20.740 He maintains

00:54:22.160 his connection.

00:54:24.200 Now,

00:54:24.800 one more step

00:54:26.060 because of the

00:54:26.520 Jesus-Job connection.

00:54:28.880 Jesus on the cross,

00:54:30.200 we say,

00:54:31.300 bearing all the sins

00:54:32.560 of the world.

00:54:33.160 It's what you just said.

00:54:34.520 You know,

00:54:35.060 bearing all of

00:54:36.460 human suffering

00:54:37.200 maintains

00:54:38.680 nevertheless

00:54:39.680 his connection

00:54:41.420 to the Father.

00:54:43.040 So,

00:54:43.980 you might say

00:54:44.860 it's like

00:54:45.040 at a breaking point.

00:54:46.100 Even God,

00:54:46.740 my God,

00:54:47.100 why have you

00:54:47.520 abandoned me?

00:54:49.080 As Chesterton said,

00:54:50.240 God becomes

00:54:50.920 an atheist

00:54:51.340 on the cross.

00:54:52.940 So you're almost

00:54:54.160 at a breaking point,

00:54:55.180 but it doesn't break.

00:54:56.880 Jesus maintains

00:54:58.080 the connection

00:54:59.140 with the Father.

00:55:00.780 That's,

00:55:01.720 we would say,

00:55:02.720 the second person

00:55:03.500 of the Trinity

00:55:04.100 having united himself

00:55:05.960 to human nature,

00:55:07.620 bringing humanity

00:55:09.240 with him

00:55:10.340 online,

00:55:11.880 which is why

00:55:12.960 we say the cross

00:55:14.180 is central to

00:55:15.280 worship.

00:55:16.660 So at the Mass,

00:55:18.100 which is our,

00:55:18.700 that's the great

00:55:19.220 temple moment

00:55:20.300 when we give God

00:55:21.200 right praise,

00:55:22.100 we do it by

00:55:23.160 remembering

00:55:23.780 the cross.

00:55:25.540 This is my body

00:55:26.460 given for you.

00:55:27.300 This is my blood

00:55:28.000 poured out for you.

00:55:29.440 We're going

00:55:30.160 right from Genesis

00:55:31.260 through Sinai,

00:55:33.400 through Job,

00:55:34.620 up to Jesus,

00:55:35.800 up to the temple

00:55:36.640 of the church,

00:55:37.500 up to someone

00:55:38.220 at Tuesday morning

00:55:39.760 Mass at 630.

00:55:41.060 It's the biblical

00:55:42.100 trajectory,

00:55:43.520 and it's on exactly

00:55:44.900 what you're talking about.

00:55:46.900 Okay, okay.

00:55:47.660 So a couple of thoughts

00:55:48.620 associated with that.

00:55:49.960 So the first thing

00:55:51.180 I would say is

00:55:52.020 work properly done,

00:55:55.640 so that would be

00:55:56.400 in the garden,

00:55:57.600 unselfconsciously,

00:55:59.380 motivated by covenant

00:56:01.020 with the highest good.

00:56:02.100 that becomes play.

00:56:05.460 Yeah, yeah, good.

00:56:06.420 Right, but I even

00:56:07.520 mean that technically.

00:56:09.080 Yes, yeah.

00:56:10.220 So imagine there

00:56:11.240 is a form of work

00:56:12.580 that allows you

00:56:13.960 not to sacrifice

00:56:15.080 the present

00:56:15.740 to the future,

00:56:16.400 but to align it

00:56:17.380 perfectly.

00:56:18.580 Okay, I think

00:56:19.480 that's signaled

00:56:20.560 by the emergence

00:56:21.420 of the spirit of play.

00:56:23.680 So the kingdom

00:56:25.120 of God is the garden

00:56:26.360 in which mankind

00:56:27.200 can eternally play.

00:56:29.060 And the play

00:56:29.960 would be musical.

00:56:30.840 So it would be,

00:56:32.520 so you could

00:56:33.260 conceptualize heaven

00:56:34.260 as an upward

00:56:34.920 moving spiral

00:56:36.120 where everything

00:56:37.340 is as already

00:56:38.120 as good

00:56:38.780 as you could imagine it,

00:56:40.620 but it's getting better.

00:56:42.100 It's getting better, yeah.

00:56:43.220 Right, exactly.

00:56:43.760 Like a piece of music

00:56:44.700 does when it unfolds.

00:56:46.200 It's already perfect,

00:56:47.120 but it's still reaching

00:56:47.940 higher and higher heights.

00:56:49.200 That's the highest

00:56:49.900 form of play,

00:56:50.900 this spiral upwards.

00:56:52.880 Okay,

00:56:53.120 we have an independent

00:56:54.220 biological circuit

00:56:55.460 for marking

00:56:56.280 the presence

00:56:56.900 of that spirit,

00:56:58.040 that spirit of play.

00:56:59.060 Okay, so let me add

00:57:00.300 one more thing to that.

00:57:01.120 Go ahead, go ahead, please.

00:57:02.140 Well, just to pull in

00:57:04.400 the symbolism of the mass,

00:57:06.460 then we could say

00:57:07.580 in parallel

00:57:08.340 that sacrifice

00:57:09.860 properly undertaken,

00:57:12.440 so that would be voluntary,

00:57:13.940 is indistinguishable

00:57:15.240 from celebration.

00:57:16.800 And then you might say,

00:57:17.700 well,

00:57:18.260 could you get to the point

00:57:19.800 where you could celebrate

00:57:21.180 the crucifixion?

00:57:23.200 And then,

00:57:23.620 so let's imagine that

00:57:24.940 practically.

00:57:25.440 So what that would mean

00:57:26.720 is that you came

00:57:29.040 to regard

00:57:29.780 your mortal vulnerability

00:57:31.500 as a blessing,

00:57:35.140 not merely as something

00:57:36.400 that you could hoist

00:57:37.560 and bear,

00:57:39.100 because there's certainly

00:57:39.760 that element,

00:57:40.400 but more than that,

00:57:41.180 beyond that,

00:57:42.260 that you would take it

00:57:43.160 on as a gift.

00:57:44.740 You know,

00:57:45.000 I saw this triptych

00:57:46.720 in Australia

00:57:48.300 that really shocked me.

00:57:50.820 The central,

00:57:51.380 it was an Orthodox triptych,

00:57:52.620 the central panel

00:57:54.620 showed Christ

00:57:56.040 in front of the cross

00:57:57.280 inviting.

00:58:00.540 And I thought,

00:58:01.180 oh my God,

00:58:01.820 you know,

00:58:02.520 could you possibly

00:58:03.440 have a more perverse invitation

00:58:05.320 than the invitation

00:58:06.780 to the cross?

00:58:07.880 And the answer to that

00:58:08.880 is obviously no,

00:58:09.880 because an invitation

00:58:11.220 to the cross

00:58:11.880 is an invitation

00:58:12.980 to bear the voluntary

00:58:14.720 suffering of life,

00:58:16.340 but more than that,

00:58:17.720 even to will

00:58:18.760 the encounter

00:58:19.560 with hell itself,

00:58:21.400 right?

00:58:21.640 So it's literally

00:58:22.800 an invitation

00:58:23.440 to fully confront

00:58:24.960 the worst

00:58:26.240 of all possible realities

00:58:28.520 or potentialities.

00:58:30.300 But then you think,

00:58:31.320 okay,

00:58:31.680 let's be sensible

00:58:32.660 about this.

00:58:33.460 How the hell

00:58:34.140 are you going to adapt

00:58:35.020 to your life

00:58:35.860 if you shy away

00:58:38.000 from mortality

00:58:39.000 and malevolence?

00:58:40.280 There's no way

00:58:40.940 you can have

00:58:41.480 a full adaptation

00:58:42.680 to life

00:58:43.440 if you hide

00:58:44.480 from that shadow.

00:58:45.740 And so then you might say,

00:58:46.740 well,

00:58:46.860 I can't confront it fully

00:58:48.140 because it would

00:58:48.840 tear me to pieces

00:58:50.120 and destroy me.

00:58:51.660 But I would say,

00:58:53.120 no,

00:58:53.340 if you did that

00:58:54.040 voluntarily

00:58:54.680 in faith,

00:58:56.580 it would destroy

00:58:57.860 sin in you.

00:58:59.060 It wouldn't destroy you.

00:59:00.540 Now,

00:59:00.760 if you were rife

00:59:01.420 with sin,

00:59:02.060 that might feel

00:59:02.960 a lot like destruction.

00:59:05.420 But,

00:59:06.060 well,

00:59:06.580 that's a different issue

00:59:08.040 to some degree.

00:59:09.260 Think of the

00:59:09.860 Jesus and the disciples

00:59:11.340 singing

00:59:12.320 before he goes out

00:59:13.400 to the Garden of Gethsemane.

00:59:15.080 So we think

00:59:16.040 of the Last Supper

00:59:16.920 as simply this kind of

00:59:17.820 gravely serious thing,

00:59:19.180 which indeed it was.

00:59:20.080 but singing

00:59:21.420 before they go out.

00:59:24.160 All the themes

00:59:25.600 of life

00:59:27.500 coming from the cross,

00:59:28.720 I think of that great

00:59:29.680 mosaic

00:59:31.180 in the apse

00:59:31.820 of San Clemente

00:59:32.660 in Rome,

00:59:33.220 which is the cross

00:59:34.180 at the center of it,

00:59:34.840 but then flowering

00:59:36.240 out from it

00:59:36.900 are all these forms

00:59:38.080 of life.

00:59:38.960 That's a basic

00:59:39.940 Christian intuition.

00:59:41.640 And yeah,

00:59:41.900 even the invitation

00:59:43.020 That's the tree of life,

00:59:43.900 isn't it?

00:59:44.980 Right.

00:59:45.460 And to enter

00:59:46.280 into that space

00:59:47.400 spiritually

00:59:48.000 of identifying

00:59:49.180 with the crucified Lord.

00:59:50.900 I loved your stuff

00:59:51.820 about play

00:59:52.460 because play

00:59:53.120 is such a key idea.

00:59:55.720 Go right back

00:59:56.300 to Aristotle.

00:59:56.960 I mean,

00:59:57.100 those things

00:59:57.480 that are sought

00:59:57.900 for their own sake

00:59:58.780 are always higher

00:59:59.520 than those sought

01:00:00.220 for the sake

01:00:00.720 of something else.

01:00:01.760 And so,

01:00:02.280 the highest activities

01:00:03.340 are forms of play.

01:00:04.880 They're good

01:00:05.740 in themselves.

01:00:06.420 I do them

01:00:06.760 because they're good

01:00:07.520 to do.

01:00:08.240 You and I

01:00:08.880 are engaging

01:00:09.640 in play right now.

01:00:10.880 You know,

01:00:11.340 it's something

01:00:12.620 good in itself

01:00:13.640 to be talking

01:00:14.300 about ideas

01:00:14.960 and I'm not looking

01:00:16.600 for something

01:00:17.120 beyond this.

01:00:19.500 This will lead.

01:00:20.700 No, no,

01:00:21.000 I'm right in this moment.

01:00:23.440 Well,

01:00:24.100 Romano Guardini

01:00:24.980 and the leaders

01:00:25.720 of the liturgical movement

01:00:26.760 early 20th century

01:00:27.840 wanted to bring forward

01:00:29.640 this idea

01:00:30.100 of the mass

01:00:30.880 as play.

01:00:32.100 The mass

01:00:32.960 is the most useless

01:00:34.480 thing that we can do.

01:00:36.020 And I use that language

01:00:37.060 a lot.

01:00:37.540 It always draws

01:00:38.940 people up short,

01:00:39.700 but I say,

01:00:40.020 look,

01:00:40.620 the mass,

01:00:41.540 which is outside of time,

01:00:43.480 is not meant to lead

01:00:44.600 to anything else.

01:00:45.780 It's not instrumental.

01:00:47.560 Right.

01:00:48.000 And we're being drawn

01:00:49.000 into precisely

01:00:49.960 the dying

01:00:50.840 and rising of Jesus.

01:00:51.960 And so,

01:00:52.200 that's why

01:00:52.580 it's the supreme

01:00:53.860 form of play.

01:00:55.000 And that's why,

01:00:55.640 you know,

01:00:55.880 I put on

01:00:56.500 fancy vestments

01:00:58.520 and I incense

01:01:00.040 and I light candles

01:01:01.740 and we move around

01:01:03.620 in a kind of

01:01:04.260 like liturgical dance,

01:01:05.580 et cetera.

01:01:06.200 Well,

01:01:06.460 all of that

01:01:06.880 is expressive of play.

01:01:08.740 It is a play.

01:01:09.420 Yeah.

01:01:10.360 Right.

01:01:10.780 It's a play.

01:01:11.500 You know,

01:01:11.760 who saw that

01:01:12.140 very clearly

01:01:12.560 was Chesterton,

01:01:13.380 who was a very

01:01:13.800 playful figure.

01:01:15.240 But he saw that,

01:01:16.200 you know,

01:01:16.340 that kids love to dress up

01:01:18.060 and they love to do,

01:01:19.500 well,

01:01:19.860 there's the mass.

01:01:21.820 We dress up

01:01:23.040 in fancy garb

01:01:24.040 and we carry candles

01:01:25.020 around

01:01:25.400 and we sing

01:01:26.640 and we dance.

01:01:28.120 And so,

01:01:29.160 well,

01:01:29.620 what's the mass

01:01:30.780 but a reflection

01:01:31.920 of the prayer

01:01:33.440 that was in the temple

01:01:34.540 in Jerusalem,

01:01:35.120 which in turn

01:01:36.740 they claim

01:01:37.560 was meant

01:01:38.060 to imitate

01:01:38.660 the dance

01:01:39.740 of David

01:01:40.260 before the ark

01:01:41.320 as he comes

01:01:42.460 into Jerusalem.

01:01:43.760 So,

01:01:44.300 it's a playful dance

01:01:46.120 that the church does

01:01:47.380 at the summit.

01:01:49.280 So,

01:01:49.480 we say

01:01:49.820 the source

01:01:50.820 and summit

01:01:51.440 of the Christian life

01:01:52.340 is the Eucharist.

01:01:53.440 Well,

01:01:53.580 there's your sumum bonum,

01:01:54.820 right?

01:01:55.180 It's what,

01:01:56.060 it's the praise

01:01:56.760 that aligns us

01:01:57.480 to the sumum bonum

01:01:58.320 and that's a playful

01:01:59.180 space to be in.

01:02:01.180 Okay,

01:02:01.560 two things there.

01:02:02.720 So,

01:02:02.980 we could say

01:02:03.660 that the mass

01:02:05.020 is an attempt

01:02:05.680 to dramatize

01:02:06.700 the transformation

01:02:07.440 of death

01:02:08.180 and hell

01:02:08.600 into play.

01:02:10.820 Okay.

01:02:11.220 That's a very,

01:02:12.040 that's a very difficult

01:02:13.380 transformation

01:02:14.000 to pull off

01:02:14.800 but you could see

01:02:15.900 it as a kind

01:02:16.400 of ultimate.

01:02:16.980 You take the worst

01:02:17.840 thing possible

01:02:18.960 and that isn't

01:02:20.520 just death

01:02:21.120 because hell

01:02:21.800 is worse than death

01:02:22.900 and if you don't

01:02:24.040 understand that

01:02:24.760 you're kind of a fool

01:02:25.740 and people might say,

01:02:27.700 well,

01:02:27.760 what's your proof

01:02:28.380 of that?

01:02:28.720 And I would say,

01:02:29.260 well,

01:02:29.380 most people

01:02:29.900 who are traumatized

01:02:30.900 so shattered,

01:02:32.140 they're shattered

01:02:32.680 by an encounter

01:02:33.400 with malevolence

01:02:34.280 not an encounter

01:02:35.080 with tragedy.

01:02:36.420 Right.

01:02:36.940 So,

01:02:37.620 tragedy is bad enough.

01:02:38.040 It's beyond just

01:02:38.200 something bad happened.

01:02:39.480 Yeah.

01:02:40.540 Yeah,

01:02:41.160 exactly.

01:02:41.880 It's right.

01:02:42.320 It's sort of like

01:02:42.980 purposeless bad

01:02:44.140 or worse,

01:02:44.920 intentional bad.

01:02:46.380 Right?

01:02:46.720 So,

01:02:47.080 there are levels

01:02:47.860 that are worse

01:02:48.560 than death.

01:02:49.520 Okay,

01:02:49.700 now you could take

01:02:50.560 death and hell

01:02:51.660 as sort of exemplars

01:02:53.400 of what is most unbearable

01:02:56.520 and you could transform them

01:02:59.160 like the ultimate

01:03:01.220 alchemical endeavor

01:03:02.740 would be to transform

01:03:03.860 those into play.

01:03:05.160 That's the same

01:03:06.140 as finding

01:03:06.660 the gold

01:03:07.780 of most value,

01:03:09.320 the pearl

01:03:09.720 of the highest price

01:03:10.780 that the worst possible

01:03:11.980 dragon guards.

01:03:13.440 It's the same thing.

01:03:15.120 Okay,

01:03:15.440 so,

01:03:15.700 okay,

01:03:16.040 so,

01:03:16.440 so there's that.

01:03:17.360 Now,

01:03:18.320 you talked about

01:03:19.240 concentration

01:03:19.820 on the moment.

01:03:21.740 Okay,

01:03:22.040 so this is how

01:03:23.180 the Sermon on the Mount

01:03:24.380 looks to me.

01:03:25.160 Tell me what you think

01:03:25.920 about this.

01:03:26.480 We're going to discuss

01:03:27.200 this in our gospel seminar

01:03:29.140 that's coming up

01:03:29.860 in April.

01:03:30.860 All right,

01:03:31.240 so,

01:03:32.320 essentially what Christ

01:03:33.480 does in the Sermon

01:03:34.320 on the Mount

01:03:34.740 is he says,

01:03:36.960 orient yourself

01:03:37.860 so that you are

01:03:39.720 acting out

01:03:41.320 your covenant

01:03:42.920 with God

01:03:43.580 in all matters.

01:03:45.200 So,

01:03:45.540 that has to be

01:03:46.020 first and foremost

01:03:47.240 in your structure

01:03:48.540 of attention.

01:03:49.180 So,

01:03:49.340 that would be,

01:03:50.240 I'm here

01:03:50.800 to serve

01:03:51.960 whatever is highest

01:03:53.500 and that would

01:03:54.380 include

01:03:55.020 my willingness

01:03:56.440 to even transform

01:03:57.600 what I conceptualize

01:03:59.060 as the highest

01:03:59.700 as I learn.

01:04:00.920 But that's my goal.

01:04:01.800 So,

01:04:02.100 our goal in this conversation,

01:04:03.720 let's say,

01:04:04.120 to the degree

01:04:04.560 that we're doing that

01:04:05.500 truly

01:04:06.880 is that we're doing

01:04:08.020 nothing but trying

01:04:08.760 to pursue the truth

01:04:09.800 and we're trying

01:04:10.680 to do that

01:04:11.340 in the spirit

01:04:12.480 of whatever's highest.

01:04:13.620 We want to

01:04:14.260 foster life

01:04:15.840 more abundant,

01:04:16.680 let's say.

01:04:17.080 We want to rectify

01:04:17.960 suffering to the degree

01:04:19.000 that that's possible

01:04:19.900 and we're inquiring

01:04:21.120 in how to do that.

01:04:22.300 Okay,

01:04:22.520 so first of all,

01:04:23.360 you set your aim

01:04:24.500 and the proper aim

01:04:25.980 is the highest aim

01:04:27.580 always.

01:04:28.960 Okay,

01:04:29.520 now once you

01:04:30.360 do that

01:04:31.140 and that's aligned

01:04:32.540 with the desire

01:04:33.820 to treat other people

01:04:34.760 as you would like

01:04:35.460 to be treated,

01:04:36.660 right?

01:04:36.940 So,

01:04:37.100 that's part of that.

01:04:38.320 That's that iterative

01:04:39.560 altruism

01:04:40.860 that's part of that

01:04:42.640 structure of aiming

01:04:43.380 highest.

01:04:43.980 Okay,

01:04:44.180 so then

01:04:44.580 the next thing

01:04:45.640 that Christ implies

01:04:46.600 is that

01:04:47.180 sufficient unto the day

01:04:49.340 and so what that

01:04:50.780 would mean

01:04:51.200 is that

01:04:51.620 if you aim

01:04:52.460 properly

01:04:53.080 at the highest,

01:04:55.060 then

01:04:55.840 you can now

01:04:57.400 focus all your

01:04:58.420 attention

01:04:58.900 with faith

01:05:00.120 and productivity

01:05:00.940 on exactly

01:05:01.920 what's happening

01:05:02.720 right now

01:05:03.880 and if you do that

01:05:05.480 with enough intensity,

01:05:06.740 that will be sufficient

01:05:08.400 but that's also,

01:05:09.600 I would say,

01:05:10.120 that's also the revelation

01:05:11.080 of the kingdom of God

01:05:12.320 because

01:05:12.620 if you are

01:05:13.920 aiming at what's highest

01:05:15.300 and you are

01:05:16.800 absolutely

01:05:17.720 attending

01:05:18.360 to the moment,

01:05:19.160 then you're walking

01:05:20.760 with God

01:05:21.400 in the eternal garden,

01:05:23.040 you lose all your

01:05:24.060 self-consciousness,

01:05:25.220 you're in that

01:05:25.880 state of play

01:05:26.700 that's simultaneously

01:05:27.700 transformative,

01:05:29.240 right?

01:05:29.540 And that's going

01:05:30.180 to suffuse you

01:05:31.500 with a sense of

01:05:32.840 sufficient

01:05:34.140 and sustaining

01:05:35.320 meaning.

01:05:37.180 And I think that's,

01:05:37.920 by the way,

01:05:38.380 I think just,

01:05:39.500 this might be

01:05:40.120 of some interest to you,

01:05:41.260 I think we actually

01:05:42.500 know how that all

01:05:43.740 operates now

01:05:44.520 at a neurophysiological

01:05:45.580 level.

01:05:46.780 Like,

01:05:46.960 I actually think

01:05:47.740 that the neuroscience

01:05:48.480 and these theological

01:05:49.780 concepts

01:05:50.540 have converged.

01:05:52.780 So,

01:05:53.180 you know,

01:05:53.520 I've talked to a number

01:05:54.320 of neuroscientists

01:05:55.180 about this,

01:05:55.700 not quite as explicitly

01:05:56.680 as we're doing,

01:05:57.620 but,

01:05:58.340 like,

01:05:58.580 it's certainly the case

01:05:59.540 that our primary

01:06:00.300 positive emotion

01:06:01.220 system,

01:06:02.880 mediated by dopamine,

01:06:04.100 let's say,

01:06:04.620 that's a treasure-seeking

01:06:06.060 system.

01:06:06.680 Yeah,

01:06:07.280 yeah,

01:06:07.620 yeah.

01:06:07.760 And it's definitely

01:06:09.080 the case that we feel

01:06:10.360 the most positive emotion

01:06:11.880 when we see progress

01:06:13.900 towards the highest

01:06:14.760 possible goal.

01:06:16.400 Yeah.

01:06:16.780 That's literally

01:06:17.420 how it works.

01:06:19.180 Yeah,

01:06:19.820 and there's so much

01:06:20.480 we could say

01:06:20.760 about the sermon,

01:06:21.440 of course,

01:06:21.800 and I agree

01:06:22.600 with those instincts,

01:06:23.460 Jordan,

01:06:23.600 very much.

01:06:24.780 I think of,

01:06:25.640 you know,

01:06:25.920 it's on a mountain,

01:06:27.280 so there you've got

01:06:28.460 Eden was a mountain

01:06:30.260 because we know

01:06:30.740 the rivers flow out

01:06:31.620 from it.

01:06:32.920 Sinai's a mountain,

01:06:34.500 you know,

01:06:35.220 Calvary's a mountain,

01:06:36.640 Mount Tabor's a mountain.

01:06:38.840 Yeah.

01:06:39.140 So,

01:06:39.460 it's a sermon

01:06:40.200 on the mount,

01:06:41.040 so,

01:06:41.580 and he's a new

01:06:42.080 from the center point.

01:06:43.900 Right,

01:06:44.520 it's where heaven

01:06:45.160 and earth meet

01:06:45.760 and he's the new

01:06:46.720 Moses,

01:06:47.100 the new lawgiver.

01:06:48.620 But what strikes me

01:06:49.540 about it

01:06:49.820 as I read Aquinas

01:06:50.920 on the sermon

01:06:51.800 is the four things

01:06:53.080 he identified

01:06:53.620 as the blocks

01:06:54.480 to the,

01:06:55.180 you know,

01:06:55.820 to the flow of grace,

01:06:57.140 wealth,

01:06:57.420 pleasure,

01:06:57.700 power,

01:06:57.980 honor,

01:06:58.340 they're all taken on

01:06:59.560 in the Beatitudes,

01:07:00.560 you know.

01:07:01.140 So,

01:07:01.440 if wealth is your problem,

01:07:02.920 how lucky you are,

01:07:04.060 and the Greek there,

01:07:05.340 makarios is the word,

01:07:06.440 and we say blessed

01:07:07.260 or happy,

01:07:08.400 but they say you could

01:07:09.040 even translate it

01:07:10.320 as lucky.

01:07:11.500 How lucky you are

01:07:12.520 if you're poor,

01:07:13.920 you know,

01:07:14.180 or poor in spirit

01:07:15.060 is Matthew's version.

01:07:16.580 You might say

01:07:17.420 how lucky you are

01:07:18.200 if you're not addicted

01:07:19.120 to wealth.

01:07:21.220 So,

01:07:21.520 I mean,

01:07:21.740 wealth leads you

01:07:22.960 down a path

01:07:23.700 toward addiction,

01:07:24.320 and when you follow

01:07:25.640 that path,

01:07:26.480 then you block

01:07:27.680 the flow of grace.

01:07:29.020 If pleasure is your problem,

01:07:30.900 well,

01:07:31.220 how lucky you are

01:07:32.020 if you mourn.

01:07:33.160 So,

01:07:33.500 it's not a masochistic

01:07:34.700 thing in saying

01:07:35.340 how happy you are

01:07:36.840 if you're not addicted

01:07:37.680 to good feelings,

01:07:39.160 because sometimes,

01:07:40.340 as you say,

01:07:41.460 following the sumum bonum

01:07:42.720 means you will not

01:07:43.500 have good feelings

01:07:44.160 at all,

01:07:44.860 just the contrary.

01:07:46.000 So,

01:07:46.180 how lucky you are

01:07:47.040 if you're not so addicted

01:07:48.500 to that

01:07:49.120 that you block

01:07:50.140 the flow of grace.

01:07:52.280 Let's say

01:07:52.880 power is your hang-up.

01:07:55.200 Well,

01:07:55.520 how blessed are the meek?

01:07:57.440 How blessed are those

01:07:58.500 without any particular power?

01:08:00.240 Well,

01:08:00.540 read it as

01:08:01.140 how lucky you are

01:08:02.240 if you're not addicted

01:08:03.300 to power,

01:08:04.160 because power is

01:08:04.840 extraordinarily

01:08:05.720 powerful addiction.

01:08:08.300 So,

01:08:08.620 how lucky you are,

01:08:09.940 and then honor.

01:08:11.500 If honor is your hang-up,

01:08:13.060 well,

01:08:13.280 how lucky you are

01:08:13.940 when people hate you

01:08:15.560 and prescribe your name.

01:08:17.160 Yeah,

01:08:17.400 revile you.

01:08:18.120 Well,

01:08:18.680 in other words,

01:08:19.260 how lucky you are

01:08:19.980 if you're not addicted

01:08:20.780 to honor,

01:08:21.920 because sometimes

01:08:22.660 following the sumum bonum

01:08:23.860 means you're not

01:08:24.540 going to be honored.

01:08:25.540 Well,

01:08:25.720 then,

01:08:26.380 once those four blocks

01:08:27.800 are out of the way,

01:08:30.580 then the rest follow.

01:08:32.340 How blessed are

01:08:33.260 the pure of heart.

01:08:35.360 That means my heart's

01:08:36.200 not divided.

01:08:37.400 I'm not following

01:08:38.380 this and that

01:08:39.160 and what's my sumum bonum

01:08:40.360 today?

01:08:40.860 It's this.

01:08:41.460 No,

01:08:41.760 I'm pure.

01:08:42.340 I'm single-hearted.

01:08:43.320 Integrated.

01:08:43.960 Single-minded.

01:08:44.840 Right.

01:08:45.040 Single-eyed.

01:08:45.240 Single-hearted.

01:08:46.680 And that's the old

01:08:47.920 Kierkegaard,

01:08:48.480 the saint someone

01:08:49.100 who wants one thing.

01:08:51.120 Right.

01:08:51.380 Who desires one thing.

01:08:52.620 Right.

01:08:52.720 So,

01:08:53.280 the single-hearted.

01:08:55.260 How blessed are

01:08:56.220 the peacemakers,

01:08:56.960 because you'll become

01:08:58.760 a baker of peace.

01:09:00.340 The minute you get rid

01:09:01.380 of these blocks

01:09:02.660 and grace flows

01:09:03.660 through you,

01:09:04.360 you will become...

01:09:05.200 Instead of a servant

01:09:05.800 of power.

01:09:07.260 Yeah.

01:09:07.600 You'll become actually

01:09:08.400 a peacemaker.

01:09:10.260 Why am I blanking

01:09:11.200 on the other ones?

01:09:11.760 Blessed are the single...

01:09:13.300 Blessed are those

01:09:13.860 who hunger and thirst

01:09:14.880 for righteousness.

01:09:15.920 That's the same thing.

01:09:16.820 What do you hunger

01:09:18.180 and thirst for?

01:09:19.800 Well,

01:09:20.060 wealth,

01:09:20.640 pleasure,

01:09:21.240 honor,

01:09:21.360 you know,

01:09:21.920 or righteousness.

01:09:23.720 I hunger for...

01:09:24.980 The one thing

01:09:25.840 is to do the will

01:09:26.720 of God,

01:09:27.380 right?

01:09:27.640 So,

01:09:28.200 the Beatitudes

01:09:29.040 set up

01:09:30.120 the basic dynamics.

01:09:31.980 And then the rest

01:09:32.540 of the sermon,

01:09:33.140 I think,

01:09:34.160 reveal kind of

01:09:35.000 what that life

01:09:35.860 begins to look like.

01:09:37.520 So,

01:09:38.140 to love,

01:09:40.120 will the good

01:09:40.720 of the other.

01:09:41.580 Okay.

01:09:42.400 What's the ultimate test?

01:09:43.540 Because if you're hooked on,

01:09:45.520 you've gotten rid

01:09:46.160 of your addictions,

01:09:46.900 at least to some degree,

01:09:47.940 and you've found

01:09:48.800 purity of heart,

01:09:49.760 you're going to be

01:09:50.380 attached to the summa bonum

01:09:51.940 whose name is love.

01:09:54.340 That's what God is.

01:09:55.540 God is love.

01:09:56.740 So,

01:09:57.040 now,

01:09:57.420 you have to live

01:09:58.600 utterly aligned to love.

01:10:00.580 What's the ultimate test

01:10:01.640 of that?

01:10:02.420 Love your enemies.

01:10:03.700 Because the enemy

01:10:04.580 is someone

01:10:05.060 who's not going to will

01:10:06.320 your good in return.

01:10:08.180 Because the great temptation

01:10:09.940 is,

01:10:10.500 I will be kind to you

01:10:12.060 or just to you

01:10:13.020 or whatever,

01:10:13.900 that you will be kind

01:10:14.900 and just to me.

01:10:16.020 So,

01:10:16.360 then I'm just caught

01:10:17.220 in the ego game,

01:10:18.860 you know,

01:10:19.140 in a more subtle form.

01:10:20.820 But if I love my enemy,

01:10:22.980 then I'm proving

01:10:24.640 I'm willing

01:10:25.980 the good of the other

01:10:26.940 as other,

01:10:28.160 you know?

01:10:28.600 So,

01:10:29.060 all the turn the other cheek

01:10:30.120 and the go the extra mile

01:10:31.640 and love your enemies.

01:10:33.640 And then,

01:10:34.420 this will turn into,

01:10:36.040 you know,

01:10:36.380 life increasing in you

01:10:37.760 30,

01:10:38.700 60,

01:10:39.400 and 100-fold.

01:10:40.700 Because you're hooked

01:10:42.440 on to the source of life.

01:10:44.620 You're in what I've called

01:10:45.800 the loop of grace.

01:10:46.860 As you receive grace,

01:10:48.420 you give it

01:10:49.640 as a gift.

01:10:50.720 Because grace only exists

01:10:52.000 as a gift.

01:10:52.080 That's part of that

01:10:52.500 upward spiral.

01:10:53.860 Yeah.

01:10:54.420 No,

01:10:54.620 and I love that

01:10:55.560 because that's very close

01:10:56.580 to the mystics

01:10:57.560 when they talk about heaven.

01:11:00.400 Aquinas says that

01:11:01.340 in heaven,

01:11:02.260 we will see

01:11:03.320 for the first time

01:11:04.680 how incomprehensible

01:11:07.400 God is.

01:11:08.480 It's a delicious formula

01:11:09.680 because you think about,

01:11:10.860 okay,

01:11:11.060 here below,

01:11:11.920 he's incomprehensible,

01:11:12.580 but boy,

01:11:13.160 in heaven,

01:11:13.800 then I'll really see him.

01:11:15.500 And Aquinas says,

01:11:16.180 yeah,

01:11:16.500 you will,

01:11:17.380 but what you'll see

01:11:18.340 is how inexhaustibly

01:11:21.340 fascinating he is

01:11:23.160 because you're going to

01:11:24.040 keep spiraling upward,

01:11:25.360 you know,

01:11:26.120 infinitely.

01:11:27.460 Anyway,

01:11:28.020 the anticipation of that

01:11:29.680 here below

01:11:30.700 is trying to deal

01:11:31.740 with these addictions,

01:11:33.440 hook onto the source

01:11:34.600 of grace,

01:11:36.080 enter into the loop

01:11:36.920 of grace.

01:11:37.440 As you receive it,

01:11:38.720 give it,

01:11:39.140 and then you'll get more.

01:11:41.320 That's the physics.

01:11:42.780 You'll get more,

01:11:43.460 and then when you get more,

01:11:44.380 give that away,

01:11:45.280 and then you'll get more.

01:11:46.640 Right, right.

01:11:47.380 And that's inexhaustible.

01:11:48.740 It's not a zero-sum game.

01:11:50.440 Yeah,

01:11:50.640 well,

01:11:50.820 so this is one of the things

01:11:51.960 I've really been toying with,

01:11:53.800 you know,

01:11:54.040 is this idea that

01:11:55.260 if,

01:11:57.860 and this is the faith

01:11:58.800 that moves mountains,

01:11:59.780 let's say,

01:12:00.380 or the power of the mustard seed,

01:12:02.020 that's another way

01:12:02.660 of thinking about it,

01:12:03.420 is that

01:12:03.800 what is possible,

01:12:07.880 what is laid in front of you

01:12:09.440 in terms of its potential

01:12:11.380 is proportional

01:12:13.300 to the attitude of faith

01:12:16.000 and courage

01:12:16.480 that you bring to bear

01:12:17.360 on the situation.

01:12:19.040 And it may well be that,

01:12:21.180 oh,

01:12:21.400 this is the proposition,

01:12:22.540 is that

01:12:22.880 the source of being

01:12:25.760 is literally inexhaustible,

01:12:29.060 is there's nothing

01:12:29.880 that it could,

01:12:30.760 it could bring forth

01:12:31.840 anything conceivable.

01:12:33.340 And the precondition

01:12:36.240 for that is

01:12:36.900 the proper,

01:12:38.840 is cultivation

01:12:39.480 of the proper

01:12:40.460 receptive attitude.

01:12:42.920 So now,

01:12:44.040 we could look at

01:12:44.920 how sophisticated

01:12:45.500 this is too.

01:12:46.560 Let's take wealth,

01:12:47.500 for example.

01:12:48.200 So,

01:12:49.360 one way of

01:12:50.280 conceptualizing wealth

01:12:51.580 is as an evil

01:12:52.420 in itself.

01:12:53.380 Maybe that's associated

01:12:54.440 with the victim-victimizer

01:12:55.960 narrative

01:12:56.420 and the evils of capitalism.

01:12:57.760 But that isn't what happens

01:12:58.800 in the Gospels

01:12:59.540 because

01:12:59.940 when Christ goes after

01:13:01.760 the rich man,

01:13:02.640 the rich young man,

01:13:04.960 like he asks him

01:13:05.880 a bunch of questions

01:13:06.680 before he tells him

01:13:07.540 he has to sell everything.

01:13:09.420 You know,

01:13:09.640 he says,

01:13:10.520 first of all,

01:13:11.140 the young man says,

01:13:12.680 well,

01:13:12.860 I'm miserable

01:13:13.460 and I don't know why.

01:13:15.520 And Christ says,

01:13:16.240 okay,

01:13:16.560 well,

01:13:16.800 let's,

01:13:17.240 you know,

01:13:17.540 let's diagnose this.

01:13:19.640 Are you abiding

01:13:20.800 by the principles of Moses?

01:13:23.120 And the young man says,

01:13:24.880 well,

01:13:25.160 yeah,

01:13:25.440 you know,

01:13:25.660 I'm actually pretty good at that.

01:13:26.940 I honor my mother

01:13:28.240 and my father.

01:13:28.760 I abide by the

01:13:31.040 ideal rules.

01:13:35.000 And they continue

01:13:37.420 that analysis

01:13:38.060 until Christ's final

01:13:39.400 revelation

01:13:40.660 is something like,

01:13:41.520 well,

01:13:41.640 look,

01:13:41.880 you're doing a lot of things

01:13:42.820 right,

01:13:43.780 apparently,

01:13:44.840 but you're still miserable.

01:13:46.320 And what that means

01:13:47.720 is that the life

01:13:48.500 you've set out

01:13:49.820 for yourself

01:13:50.500 isn't working for you.

01:13:51.940 It's not in accordance

01:13:53.040 with the needs

01:13:53.680 of your soul.

01:13:54.740 And so,

01:13:55.320 what you may have to do

01:13:56.840 is to dispense

01:13:57.860 with all of your privilege

01:13:59.220 and your security

01:14:00.660 and the opportunity

01:14:01.920 of your wealth

01:14:02.620 because it looks like

01:14:04.100 it's interfering

01:14:04.900 with your potential allegiance

01:14:06.600 to an even higher good.

01:14:09.060 And that makes

01:14:10.400 the young man,

01:14:12.040 I guess,

01:14:13.300 his countenance falls

01:14:14.360 in some ways,

01:14:15.320 right?

01:14:15.540 He's shocked

01:14:16.700 by the idea

01:14:17.520 that in order

01:14:18.180 to follow Christ,

01:14:19.780 to enter the true kingdom

01:14:21.180 of heaven,

01:14:21.760 that he would have

01:14:22.600 to sacrifice

01:14:23.240 everything he owns.

01:14:24.480 And all the disciples

01:14:25.420 say,

01:14:25.800 well,

01:14:25.900 if that's the cost

01:14:26.780 of getting into heaven,

01:14:27.800 then no one's going

01:14:29.180 to pay it.

01:14:30.220 But the thing is,

01:14:31.580 it's not a critique

01:14:32.360 of wealth

01:14:32.840 in and of itself.

01:14:33.700 It's a critique

01:14:34.240 of the worship

01:14:35.060 of wealth

01:14:35.900 as a substitute

01:14:37.200 for the divine.

01:14:38.900 Right now,

01:14:39.300 you see that

01:14:40.040 even more subtly,

01:14:41.040 I think,

01:14:41.500 in the parable

01:14:42.040 of the unjust steward.

01:14:44.140 Because,

01:14:44.740 and tell me

01:14:45.200 if you think

01:14:45.700 I've got this right

01:14:46.540 or wrong,

01:14:46.940 but basically

01:14:47.520 what Christ tells

01:14:48.360 the unjust steward

01:14:49.420 who does some

01:14:51.160 shady machinations

01:14:53.020 to increase his wealth,

01:14:54.740 he says something like,

01:14:55.740 the children of darkness

01:14:57.280 are in some ways

01:14:58.380 wiser than the children

01:14:59.480 of light.

01:15:00.100 And what he's implying

01:15:01.260 there is that

01:15:01.940 not only is wealth

01:15:04.380 or abundance

01:15:05.040 not an evil

01:15:06.820 in and of itself,

01:15:07.960 but if you pursue

01:15:09.320 that diligently,

01:15:11.360 that's better

01:15:12.120 than no diligent

01:15:13.080 pursuit as well,

01:15:14.500 at all.

01:15:15.560 And that dedicated

01:15:17.560 pursuit could

01:15:18.680 produce in you

01:15:20.260 the discipline

01:15:20.840 that could be then

01:15:21.700 used for a higher

01:15:22.680 aim, right?

01:15:23.940 And so you can't

01:15:24.680 just casually

01:15:25.280 dispense with the

01:15:26.440 economic realm,

01:15:28.580 let's say,

01:15:29.100 and supplant

01:15:29.820 and substitute

01:15:31.220 for that the spiritual

01:15:32.280 is that these things,

01:15:34.380 wealth, pleasure,

01:15:35.200 power, and honor,

01:15:36.120 they might not be evils

01:15:37.460 if they were put

01:15:38.240 in their proper place,

01:15:39.360 right?

01:15:39.520 If they were subdued

01:15:40.420 properly.

01:15:41.360 Okay, okay.

01:15:41.820 No, that's exactly right.

01:15:43.520 There's a lot

01:15:44.160 we could say there.

01:15:45.020 The rich young man

01:15:45.740 is fascinating

01:15:46.220 for one reason.

01:15:47.460 It's one of the only times

01:15:48.400 Jesus seems to fail.

01:15:50.920 Like, you know,

01:15:51.180 whenever when he calls people,

01:15:52.240 oh, yeah,

01:15:52.940 they drop everything

01:15:53.600 and they come after him

01:15:54.500 and, you know,

01:15:55.220 sure, I'll follow you

01:15:56.100 and Matthew leaves

01:15:57.000 his tax ledger post

01:15:58.180 and he comes after him.

01:15:59.320 Well, the rich young man

01:16:00.400 receives this extraordinary

01:16:01.740 invitation from Jesus.

01:16:03.140 I mean, just leave

01:16:04.240 your wealth behind

01:16:04.800 and come after me

01:16:05.800 and he doesn't do it,

01:16:07.160 which to me

01:16:07.900 is a witness to

01:16:08.620 how extraordinarily

01:16:09.760 powerful

01:16:10.680 the grip was on him.

01:16:12.560 Here's John Paul II's

01:16:13.640 reading on that.

01:16:15.640 He takes him,

01:16:16.660 see, Luther read him

01:16:18.220 in the Protestant way

01:16:19.360 as, well, you know,

01:16:21.200 he just, he thinks

01:16:22.040 he's following

01:16:22.540 the commandments

01:16:23.360 but, I mean,

01:16:24.060 no one can follow

01:16:25.080 the commandments.

01:16:26.380 We're all hopeless

01:16:27.200 and that's why

01:16:27.740 we all need grace,

01:16:28.620 you know.

01:16:29.220 But John Paul,

01:16:30.180 in a more Catholic way,

01:16:31.060 said, no, no,

01:16:31.480 I take the kid

01:16:32.200 at his word.

01:16:33.260 He's a seeker

01:16:34.400 and you're right,

01:16:34.980 that his life

01:16:35.800 is miserable

01:16:36.260 and so he's coming

01:16:37.120 to the source

01:16:38.140 of good,

01:16:39.220 good teacher.

01:16:40.440 You know,

01:16:40.560 and the Lord,

01:16:40.880 he said,

01:16:41.040 why do you call me good?

01:16:41.820 Only God is good.

01:16:43.120 But, you know,

01:16:43.540 good teacher,

01:16:44.520 what must I do

01:16:45.100 to be saved?

01:16:45.900 Well, I'll take him

01:16:46.680 at his word.

01:16:47.140 He wants to be saved,

01:16:48.480 healed, right?

01:16:49.220 He wants to be healed.

01:16:49.820 He's knocking.

01:16:51.300 Right, he is.

01:16:52.140 And so Jesus says,

01:16:53.240 as a good Jew,

01:16:54.660 all right,

01:16:55.000 are you following

01:16:55.600 the commandments

01:16:56.140 of Moses?

01:16:56.920 Which I would construe

01:16:58.200 there as

01:16:59.160 the fundamentals

01:17:01.080 and preambles

01:17:02.420 of love.

01:17:03.920 So you're going to be

01:17:04.560 a person of love

01:17:05.360 in line with God.

01:17:06.300 Well, of course,

01:17:07.580 you can't be

01:17:08.180 killing people

01:17:08.920 and you can't be

01:17:09.980 stealing things

01:17:10.660 from people.

01:17:11.100 You can't be raping

01:17:11.940 and you can't be,

01:17:12.700 you know,

01:17:13.160 committing adultery.

01:17:14.140 And these are like

01:17:15.020 fundamental violations

01:17:16.740 of love.

01:17:17.800 Okay, and the kid says,

01:17:18.980 and I'll believe him,

01:17:20.140 I've kept all these

01:17:21.080 since my youth.

01:17:21.980 All right, fair enough.

01:17:23.380 So you've done the basics,

01:17:25.460 but now you're ready

01:17:26.960 for some high-octane

01:17:28.280 spirituality.

01:17:29.340 And what Jesus,

01:17:30.320 you know,

01:17:30.900 clearly intuits is

01:17:32.140 your big problem is

01:17:34.180 you're carrying

01:17:35.060 your wealth around

01:17:35.860 like this terrible burden.

01:17:37.420 It's an enormous block

01:17:38.800 to the flow of grace.

01:17:40.100 And so if you're ready

01:17:41.600 for the serious stuff,

01:17:43.380 sell all you've got,

01:17:44.360 give it to the poor

01:17:44.860 and come follow me

01:17:45.660 and you'll have treasure

01:17:46.260 in heaven.

01:17:48.400 And he's not willing

01:17:49.380 to do it,

01:17:50.200 which witnesses

01:17:51.340 to the power of that

01:17:52.440 in that kid's life.

01:17:53.240 And I've known people

01:17:54.120 like that,

01:17:54.940 that they really do want,

01:17:56.640 they really do want joy.

01:17:58.220 They really do want God.

01:18:00.080 And they're not bad people.

01:18:01.480 They're doing

01:18:01.920 the basic things, right?

01:18:03.060 They're not raping

01:18:03.900 and stealing and killing.

01:18:05.780 But there's some,

01:18:06.840 there's some block

01:18:08.040 that's so big

01:18:09.040 and it might be

01:18:09.980 one of the other three.

01:18:11.400 You know,

01:18:11.900 they're addicted

01:18:12.540 to pleasure

01:18:13.100 or to honor

01:18:13.660 and they can't

01:18:14.780 let go of it.

01:18:16.960 And that's all

01:18:17.760 the spiritual masters

01:18:18.700 will use that kind

01:18:19.600 of language,

01:18:20.180 is find out

01:18:21.100 what that thing

01:18:21.920 is you're carrying around.

01:18:23.340 You got to get rid of it.

01:18:24.180 Right, right, right, right.

01:18:25.540 Well, that's the sacrifice

01:18:26.640 of the thing you most love.

01:18:28.160 That's also why

01:18:28.840 Christ says

01:18:29.620 in the Gospels

01:18:30.940 that unless you're willing

01:18:31.940 to forsake your mother,

01:18:33.260 your father,

01:18:34.260 like everything,

01:18:35.140 you can't follow me.

01:18:36.220 It's a matter

01:18:36.860 of prioritization.

01:18:38.560 People get that wrong

01:18:39.280 all the time,

01:18:40.000 you know,

01:18:40.200 and I love

01:18:41.060 the treatment

01:18:41.860 of Abraham,

01:18:43.060 the sacrifice,

01:18:43.620 the akedah,

01:18:44.500 right,

01:18:44.660 the binding of Isaac.

01:18:46.580 Oh, my goodness,

01:18:47.700 you know,

01:18:47.960 what a terrible father

01:18:49.460 and God making

01:18:50.900 that horrific demand

01:18:52.200 and, you know,

01:18:52.680 who could believe

01:18:53.440 this whole nonsense

01:18:54.160 and I would have

01:18:54.800 that guy arrested

01:18:55.560 and come on.

01:18:57.120 It's people that are just

01:18:58.040 opaque to the spiritual

01:19:00.520 meaning of these stories.

01:19:02.560 The Bible is so edgy,

01:19:04.620 such an edgy book

01:19:05.580 and it doesn't compromise.

01:19:07.720 So, Isaac,

01:19:09.980 good,

01:19:10.560 yes,

01:19:11.320 it's your son

01:19:12.040 and he's the bearer

01:19:13.020 of the promise

01:19:13.620 and he's all of that.

01:19:14.780 He's great.

01:19:15.560 I love Isaac

01:19:16.440 and God says to Abraham,

01:19:17.900 you know,

01:19:18.160 Isaac,

01:19:18.860 yes,

01:19:19.400 your son,

01:19:20.280 whom you love,

01:19:22.180 yeah,

01:19:22.700 yeah,

01:19:22.920 yeah.

01:19:23.280 So,

01:19:23.660 just that we're really clear

01:19:24.840 on how good

01:19:26.160 Isaac is.

01:19:28.300 Okay,

01:19:28.640 I want you to sacrifice

01:19:29.340 him to me.

01:19:30.780 Now,

01:19:31.040 this is,

01:19:31.640 in the sort of

01:19:32.560 coded language

01:19:33.280 of the Bible,

01:19:33.780 this is not God

01:19:34.680 being manipulative

01:19:35.440 and cruel.

01:19:36.860 It's forcing

01:19:37.820 this question.

01:19:39.600 Okay,

01:19:40.680 yes,

01:19:41.400 Isaac is all

01:19:42.200 those things,

01:19:43.320 but he's not

01:19:44.320 the sumum bonum

01:19:45.240 and your family

01:19:47.420 is not the sumum bonum.

01:19:49.160 The family's great

01:19:50.000 and that's why

01:19:50.500 Jesus is saying,

01:19:51.460 hey,

01:19:51.660 Lord,

01:19:52.220 I'll follow you,

01:19:52.820 but first,

01:19:53.620 can I just bury

01:19:54.480 my father?

01:19:55.780 What do you think?

01:19:56.480 Well,

01:19:56.800 of course you can

01:19:57.860 bury your father

01:19:58.540 and the Lord says,

01:19:59.500 let the dead bury

01:20:00.180 their dead.

01:20:01.560 There's no first,

01:20:02.800 there's no other first,

01:20:04.200 no matter what it is.

01:20:05.500 You have to be prepared

01:20:06.460 at a moment's notice,

01:20:07.880 no matter what's happening.

01:20:09.480 That's the edgy language.

01:20:11.560 It's a spiritual,

01:20:12.760 you know,

01:20:13.080 training manual in a way

01:20:14.400 and it's forcing you

01:20:16.200 to come up

01:20:16.860 against these things.

01:20:18.400 Okay,

01:20:18.700 so with regard

01:20:19.720 to Isaac,

01:20:20.940 like we could look

01:20:21.680 at the paeda.

01:20:23.480 It isn't only that

01:20:24.600 Abraham is willing

01:20:25.720 to sacrifice

01:20:26.440 his son to God,

01:20:27.720 it's that if you

01:20:28.440 were a good father,

01:20:29.180 that is what you would do.

01:20:31.400 Now,

01:20:31.580 weirdly enough,

01:20:33.020 you see,

01:20:33.340 what happens is that

01:20:34.220 because Abraham is willing

01:20:35.440 to sacrifice Isaac,

01:20:37.040 he doesn't have to

01:20:38.180 and that's so cool.

01:20:40.320 Okay,

01:20:40.580 so what you see

01:20:41.820 in the figure of Mary

01:20:42.920 with the paeda

01:20:43.880 is Mary has entered

01:20:45.720 into this covenant

01:20:46.480 with God

01:20:47.120 and she's going to

01:20:48.100 fully offer her child

01:20:49.820 to the world

01:20:50.540 with no reservation,

01:20:52.440 even if that means

01:20:53.440 his demise and torture.

01:20:55.240 Now,

01:20:55.680 that is what a mother

01:20:56.740 has to do

01:20:57.480 because if she

01:20:58.940 isn't willing

01:21:00.400 to offer her child

01:21:01.940 to the world,

01:21:02.900 she is now

01:21:03.620 an impediment

01:21:04.200 to that child's development

01:21:05.380 so that it's only

01:21:07.160 the parent

01:21:08.020 who is willing

01:21:08.840 to sacrifice

01:21:11.460 the child

01:21:12.320 to the world

01:21:12.880 who can even

01:21:13.560 bring the child

01:21:14.180 into being.

01:21:14.840 Look,

01:21:15.020 I mean,

01:21:15.260 part of the reason

01:21:15.900 that the birth rate

01:21:16.640 is plummeting,

01:21:17.440 this isn't the whole reason,

01:21:18.420 but part of the reason

01:21:19.040 is that women

01:21:20.040 ask themselves

01:21:20.900 the eternal question

01:21:21.860 is how is it ethical

01:21:24.380 to bring a child

01:21:25.320 into a world

01:21:26.360 such as this?

01:21:27.780 Right,

01:21:28.240 yeah.

01:21:28.400 Right,

01:21:28.620 and they may be

01:21:29.160 doing that locally,

01:21:30.160 say,

01:21:30.380 well,

01:21:30.480 we don't have

01:21:30.980 the security

01:21:31.580 or the wealth

01:21:32.320 to provide

01:21:33.360 what's necessary

01:21:34.520 for the child,

01:21:35.400 but then there's

01:21:36.000 a metaphysical question

01:21:37.060 is,

01:21:37.420 well,

01:21:38.380 given that my child

01:21:39.400 will definitely

01:21:40.140 suffer and encounter

01:21:41.680 evil fully,

01:21:44.060 how dare I

01:21:45.340 presume

01:21:46.300 to play that game

01:21:48.380 with God?

01:21:49.540 That's what Mary's

01:21:50.360 asked to do

01:21:50.960 when the angel

01:21:51.460 comes to visit her,

01:21:52.440 right?

01:21:52.740 And so you see this,

01:21:54.820 there's no higher offering

01:21:56.180 than the willingness

01:21:56.880 to offer up your son

01:21:58.080 to God,

01:21:58.720 let's say.

01:21:59.200 Well,

01:21:59.420 that's also the game

01:22:00.880 God plays

01:22:01.660 when he offers up Christ,

01:22:03.760 right?

01:22:04.400 And it does have this element

01:22:06.660 that you described

01:22:07.480 which is off-putting

01:22:08.380 to begin with,

01:22:09.040 but of course

01:22:09.500 you have to sacrifice,

01:22:12.700 you have to celebrate

01:22:13.540 the sacrifice

01:22:14.260 of your child

01:22:14.940 to the world.

01:22:15.620 You have to let them

01:22:16.540 go out there

01:22:17.220 and bang up hard

01:22:19.060 against everything,

01:22:20.340 and that should be

01:22:21.480 a celebration,

01:22:22.260 and I would also say

01:22:23.080 the fact that you

01:22:23.840 love your child

01:22:24.700 and that you would

01:22:25.320 mourn his or her

01:22:26.800 demise is actually

01:22:28.080 a testament to the fact

01:22:29.480 that that sacrificial

01:22:30.600 offering is the essence

01:22:32.560 of love.

01:22:33.320 Those are the same thing.

01:22:35.120 I'm just thinking

01:22:35.780 of our friend

01:22:36.880 Carl Jung

01:22:37.860 who said

01:22:38.660 the first great psychologists

01:22:39.880 were the church fathers.

01:22:41.500 You know,

01:22:41.700 he knew the church fathers

01:22:42.960 and saw that they

01:22:44.020 grasped a lot of these,

01:22:45.740 he might even call

01:22:46.820 them psychological,

01:22:47.580 I might call them

01:22:48.140 spiritual,

01:22:48.760 you know,

01:22:49.140 truths,

01:22:49.840 but one of them,

01:22:50.660 the connection there

01:22:51.300 is between Isaac

01:22:52.460 and Jesus.

01:22:54.000 So the church fathers

01:22:55.040 got that right away.

01:22:56.040 So Abraham is called

01:22:56.920 upon to sacrifice

01:22:57.780 his son,

01:22:58.580 but then,

01:22:59.160 you know,

01:22:59.580 his hand is stayed,

01:23:01.200 but it anticipates

01:23:02.440 the father

01:23:03.520 willing to sacrifice

01:23:04.840 his son.

01:23:06.240 Yeah, right.

01:23:06.800 But when all the way,

01:23:08.560 he didn't stop

01:23:09.340 the sacrifice.

01:23:10.400 And Isaac bringing

01:23:11.200 the wood of the sacrifice

01:23:12.380 up the hill

01:23:13.140 is in anticipation

01:23:14.160 of Jesus carrying

01:23:15.180 the cross up Calvary.

01:23:16.080 Right, right, right.

01:23:16.760 So they saw

01:23:17.840 these connections

01:23:18.660 that are meant

01:23:19.740 to speak the very

01:23:20.760 spiritual truth

01:23:21.520 that we're talking about.

01:23:22.780 Right, well,

01:23:23.380 those are connections

01:23:24.200 that I would say

01:23:25.000 occupy the same

01:23:25.940 semantic space.

01:23:27.200 Yes, precisely.

01:23:27.360 And I think we'll be able

01:23:28.240 to map those out,

01:23:29.340 by the way,

01:23:29.940 so that this,

01:23:30.640 like I said,

01:23:31.180 it will no longer

01:23:31.800 be a matter of opinion.

01:23:33.800 We'll be able

01:23:34.160 to identify.

01:23:34.900 Okay, so now

01:23:35.560 here's another issue

01:23:36.860 with regards,

01:23:37.640 let's say,

01:23:38.000 to the pearl

01:23:38.540 of great price

01:23:39.460 that the farmer

01:23:40.300 sells everything

01:23:41.040 he owns to possess.

01:23:42.400 Well, Christ

01:23:42.980 contrasts earthly

01:23:45.400 and heavenly treasure.

01:23:47.420 Okay, so let's

01:23:48.000 imagine that heavenly

01:23:48.880 treasure is a kind

01:23:49.780 of metaphysical treasure

01:23:51.220 that leads

01:23:53.680 to true abundance.

01:23:55.340 Okay, now you

01:23:55.820 already touched on this,

01:23:56.880 so, okay,

01:23:57.580 let me make this

01:23:58.660 real concrete.

01:24:00.080 So I had this

01:24:01.020 graduate advisor

01:24:02.540 at McGill,

01:24:03.360 Robert Peel.

01:24:04.120 Robert is still alive

01:24:05.100 and I still work with him.

01:24:06.620 Now, he was a very

01:24:08.300 particular sort of professor

01:24:09.540 and I would contrast him

01:24:10.960 with another sort.

01:24:12.220 So whenever I went

01:24:13.320 and talked to Bob

01:24:14.120 in his office,

01:24:15.740 he always made time for me.

01:24:16.980 He was very generous

01:24:17.620 with his time.

01:24:18.680 All we did was talk

01:24:19.880 about potential research

01:24:21.200 projects and hypotheses

01:24:22.640 and he was 100%

01:24:25.060 generous with his ideas.

01:24:27.600 Okay, so,

01:24:28.140 and that generosity

01:24:29.020 was manifest to his

01:24:30.980 other students

01:24:31.560 but also practically speaking.

01:24:33.140 So if you looked

01:24:34.200 at the relationship

01:24:34.880 that Bob had

01:24:35.640 with his graduate students,

01:24:37.320 his students produced

01:24:38.520 a lot of papers,

01:24:40.440 a lot of first

01:24:41.520 authorship papers,

01:24:43.360 many of which

01:24:44.100 were derived from

01:24:44.920 an idea that Bob

01:24:45.960 had planted

01:24:46.520 but he was 100%

01:24:48.460 committed to the fostering

01:24:50.580 of his students' flourishing

01:24:52.040 and so we had a blast

01:24:53.820 in his lap

01:24:54.460 because the entire place

01:24:56.180 was set up

01:24:57.040 with his,

01:24:59.900 with the students'

01:25:01.740 future well-being in mind.

01:25:02.900 Now, that redounded

01:25:03.860 to his credit

01:25:04.880 because he produced

01:25:06.300 many outstanding students

01:25:07.560 who went off

01:25:08.140 to be professors

01:25:08.840 who had stellar research careers

01:25:10.420 so it multiplied his effect

01:25:12.120 but here's something

01:25:13.120 even cooler.

01:25:13.820 So his initial proposition

01:25:15.780 was that

01:25:16.660 ideas,

01:25:18.440 revelations

01:25:19.120 were to be given

01:25:20.740 away freely.

01:25:22.760 Okay, so let's imagine

01:25:23.680 the consequence of that.

01:25:24.760 So now you and I

01:25:25.420 are talking

01:25:25.900 and I'm completely

01:25:26.720 unremitting

01:25:29.360 in my willingness

01:25:30.900 to share my ideas

01:25:32.000 with you.

01:25:33.140 Okay, so that's

01:25:34.480 inspiring.

01:25:35.600 Now what I get back

01:25:36.660 from you

01:25:37.140 is a corresponding

01:25:38.100 enthusiasm

01:25:38.760 and that's the

01:25:40.160 possession by God

01:25:41.160 for you

01:25:41.860 because that's what

01:25:42.400 enthusiasm means

01:25:43.180 but that enthusiasm

01:25:44.380 technically is a form

01:25:46.100 of incentive reward.

01:25:47.680 It's what keeps

01:25:48.360 the conversation

01:25:49.240 flourishing.

01:25:50.840 Now, here's the

01:25:52.000 neurophysiological

01:25:52.920 consequence of that.

01:25:54.900 So imagine that

01:25:55.780 you have a network

01:25:57.220 of living tissue

01:25:58.180 that is capable

01:26:00.060 of generating

01:26:01.000 even scientific ideas.

01:26:03.720 Now you keep

01:26:04.300 feeding that,

01:26:05.020 you feed it

01:26:05.440 new information

01:26:06.120 and so forth

01:26:06.760 but when it

01:26:07.820 operates

01:26:08.460 because you

01:26:09.480 express its

01:26:10.480 contents

01:26:11.100 it meets

01:26:12.080 its seeds

01:26:13.740 land on fertile

01:26:14.740 ground

01:26:15.160 and it

01:26:16.380 receives the

01:26:17.620 optimum response

01:26:19.040 which is rewarding.

01:26:20.900 Okay, that

01:26:21.320 produces a

01:26:22.080 dopaminergic

01:26:22.860 response in you.

01:26:24.260 That's part of the

01:26:24.920 enthusiasm of the

01:26:25.760 conference.

01:26:26.100 Okay, here's what

01:26:26.720 dopamine does.

01:26:27.660 the dopaminergic

01:26:30.100 system

01:26:30.720 watches,

01:26:32.200 monitors

01:26:32.640 the pattern

01:26:33.700 of neurological

01:26:34.460 activation

01:26:35.300 that precedes

01:26:36.660 the receipt

01:26:37.260 of the reward.

01:26:38.640 So imagine

01:26:39.180 that there's a

01:26:39.720 network in me

01:26:40.440 that is operating

01:26:41.900 just before I say

01:26:43.400 something that you

01:26:44.140 respond enthusiastically

01:26:45.540 to.

01:26:46.600 Okay, that

01:26:47.000 enthusiasm

01:26:47.520 triggers a

01:26:48.500 dopaminergic

01:26:49.140 response in me.

01:26:50.320 That makes

01:26:51.140 that system

01:26:51.900 grow.

01:26:53.340 That's literally

01:26:54.300 what happens.

01:26:55.120 It reinforces it.

01:26:56.160 So there's a

01:26:56.600 rewarding element

01:26:57.400 of dopamine

01:26:57.960 and a

01:26:58.480 reinforcing element.

01:26:59.540 So what that

01:27:00.220 means technically

01:27:01.200 in principle

01:27:02.960 is that

01:27:03.620 the more you

01:27:04.840 give away

01:27:05.380 your ideas,

01:27:06.200 the more

01:27:06.460 unselfish you

01:27:07.300 are in

01:27:07.900 sharing your

01:27:08.880 talents or

01:27:09.560 not hiding

01:27:10.880 your light

01:27:11.360 under a

01:27:11.760 bushel,

01:27:12.700 the more

01:27:13.460 ideas you're

01:27:14.220 going to have

01:27:14.880 and so

01:27:16.240 and that

01:27:16.800 okay then

01:27:17.520 one more

01:27:17.940 thing then

01:27:18.380 imagine that

01:27:19.000 participating in

01:27:20.100 that now

01:27:21.100 becomes the

01:27:21.800 heavenly treasure

01:27:22.580 because now

01:27:23.680 you've tapped

01:27:24.240 into the well

01:27:25.120 that's literally

01:27:25.960 inexhaustible

01:27:26.740 and that's way

01:27:27.500 better than

01:27:27.980 just security.

01:27:29.620 The other

01:27:29.920 professors they

01:27:30.700 would shepherd

01:27:31.280 their ideas

01:27:31.980 and you know

01:27:33.020 guard them

01:27:33.620 like they were

01:27:34.140 treasures and

01:27:35.180 they ran out

01:27:36.060 very rapidly

01:27:37.080 like their

01:27:37.640 trajectory was

01:27:38.540 downward and

01:27:40.060 closing and

01:27:41.720 their students

01:27:42.240 didn't thrive

01:27:43.100 because they

01:27:44.100 were stingy

01:27:44.760 about their

01:27:45.180 treasure.

01:27:46.520 Right.

01:27:47.160 Can I suggest

01:27:48.120 in a way

01:27:49.180 we're very

01:27:50.400 close to the

01:27:51.020 kingdom of

01:27:51.380 God here

01:27:51.840 to use

01:27:52.180 Jesus language

01:27:52.940 and it

01:27:53.800 goes right

01:27:54.180 back to the

01:27:54.540 beginning of

01:27:54.860 our conversation

01:27:55.380 we've been

01:27:55.760 talking about

01:27:56.180 metaphysical

01:27:56.700 truths and

01:27:57.340 psychological

01:27:57.880 realities and

01:27:58.840 spiritual things

01:27:59.400 but with

01:28:00.240 this we're

01:28:00.860 coming very

01:28:01.760 very close

01:28:02.580 to the heart

01:28:02.980 of it.

01:28:04.240 John Paul

01:28:04.880 II formulated

01:28:05.820 what he called

01:28:06.400 the law of

01:28:06.880 the gift

01:28:07.240 which is

01:28:07.600 exactly what

01:28:08.180 you said

01:28:08.600 the law

01:28:09.400 is this

01:28:09.780 your being

01:28:10.740 increases in

01:28:11.780 the measure

01:28:12.100 that you

01:28:12.420 give it away

01:28:12.980 so it's

01:28:14.420 so counterintuitive

01:28:15.420 our sinful

01:28:16.960 world teaches

01:28:17.740 us exactly

01:28:18.680 the opposite

01:28:19.260 all the time

01:28:20.500 which is why

01:28:21.300 there's so much

01:28:21.780 suffering

01:28:22.320 spiritual suffering

01:28:23.500 it says

01:28:24.420 no no

01:28:24.780 fill up

01:28:25.500 your ego

01:28:26.240 with all

01:28:26.800 these the

01:28:27.120 goods of

01:28:27.380 the world

01:28:27.660 and then

01:28:28.060 as you

01:28:28.660 said

01:28:28.940 shepherd

01:28:29.420 them

01:28:29.720 hang on

01:28:30.140 to them

01:28:30.460 defend

01:28:31.100 them

01:28:31.440 make sure

01:28:32.100 people know

01:28:32.540 they're yours

01:28:33.280 but

01:28:34.260 now

01:28:35.220 there's

01:28:35.860 the

01:28:36.000 prodigal

01:28:36.380 son

01:28:36.780 father

01:28:38.440 give me

01:28:39.140 my share

01:28:39.880 of the

01:28:40.180 inheritance

01:28:40.500 coming to

01:28:41.140 me

01:28:41.440 so three

01:28:42.280 times in

01:28:42.820 one sentence

01:28:43.400 he says

01:28:43.680 me

01:28:44.080 give me

01:28:45.440 my share

01:28:46.160 coming to

01:28:46.760 me

01:28:47.060 what I

01:28:47.500 deserve

01:28:47.880 yes

01:28:49.160 and so

01:28:49.440 the father

01:28:49.880 symbolizes

01:28:50.500 God

01:28:50.920 gives

01:28:51.580 that's all

01:28:52.080 the father

01:28:52.540 knows how

01:28:52.860 to do

01:28:53.400 right

01:28:53.900 God

01:28:54.120 is love

01:28:54.720 he is

01:28:55.700 in a way

01:28:56.080 like the

01:28:56.460 platonic

01:28:56.920 form of

01:28:57.400 the good

01:28:57.700 that just

01:28:58.160 knows how

01:28:58.700 to give

01:28:59.160 that's all

01:29:00.040 God knows

01:29:00.540 how to do

01:29:01.000 so he

01:29:01.740 of course

01:29:02.020 he gives

01:29:02.520 well then

01:29:03.100 the son

01:29:03.660 hanging on

01:29:04.860 to these

01:29:05.300 goods he's

01:29:05.740 received

01:29:06.220 fritters

01:29:07.200 them away

01:29:07.700 now read

01:29:08.780 that

01:29:09.000 spiritually

01:29:09.720 it is

01:29:10.580 the minute

01:29:10.900 you turn

01:29:11.560 grace

01:29:12.220 into a

01:29:12.840 possession

01:29:13.300 it stops

01:29:14.380 being grace

01:29:15.100 and therefore

01:29:15.940 it disappears

01:29:16.620 it disappears

01:29:17.860 well that's

01:29:18.400 the danger

01:29:18.840 of that

01:29:19.160 material

01:29:19.680 wealth

01:29:20.160 right

01:29:20.400 that's

01:29:20.700 the

01:29:20.860 transformation

01:29:21.440 of the

01:29:22.080 spiritual

01:29:22.480 into the

01:29:23.420 merely

01:29:23.820 material

01:29:24.380 into

01:29:24.740 what you

01:29:25.620 possess

01:29:26.020 and then

01:29:26.580 that

01:29:26.800 even if

01:29:27.180 it was

01:29:27.380 valuable

01:29:27.740 to begin

01:29:28.220 with

01:29:28.440 that now

01:29:28.860 becomes

01:29:29.220 an

01:29:29.380 impediment

01:29:29.800 to your

01:29:30.140 movement

01:29:30.440 forward

01:29:30.840 because

01:29:31.260 you're

01:29:31.420 going to

01:29:31.600 cling

01:29:31.820 to it

01:29:32.280 right

01:29:33.000 and so

01:29:33.920 the discovery

01:29:34.780 has to be

01:29:35.520 actually

01:29:35.940 when I

01:29:36.380 give away

01:29:37.260 the grace

01:29:37.800 I've

01:29:38.080 received

01:29:38.640 being

01:29:39.660 increases

01:29:40.260 in me

01:29:40.720 I get

01:29:41.180 more of it

01:29:41.880 now as I

01:29:42.680 give that

01:29:43.180 away

01:29:43.460 I get

01:29:43.940 more of it

01:29:44.480 now I'm

01:29:45.020 in the loop

01:29:45.560 of grace

01:29:46.040 and I found

01:29:47.240 exactly what

01:29:48.480 Jesus means

01:29:49.120 when he says

01:29:49.880 treasure in

01:29:50.360 heaven

01:29:50.720 yes we would

01:29:52.520 say after

01:29:53.220 we die

01:29:53.700 and we go

01:29:54.660 to a

01:29:55.020 higher

01:29:55.840 dimensional

01:29:56.300 yes that's

01:29:57.040 true

01:29:57.260 but even

01:29:58.300 now

01:29:58.820 even now

01:29:59.960 I can

01:30:00.680 tap into

01:30:01.320 treasure

01:30:01.780 in heaven

01:30:02.280 and that

01:30:03.540 well that's

01:30:04.080 in eternity

01:30:04.740 that's in

01:30:05.440 eternity

01:30:05.920 right

01:30:06.280 that treasure

01:30:06.900 in heaven

01:30:07.300 is the

01:30:07.980 eternal

01:30:08.380 treasure

01:30:08.840 and I

01:30:09.800 agree

01:30:10.100 I also

01:30:10.660 see again

01:30:11.480 the practicality

01:30:12.420 of this

01:30:12.700 like look

01:30:13.160 look

01:30:14.320 we know

01:30:14.940 this even

01:30:15.500 there's almost

01:30:16.500 nothing that

01:30:17.060 devastates a

01:30:17.780 person more

01:30:18.420 than the

01:30:19.420 devastation

01:30:20.160 of their

01:30:20.460 reputation

01:30:21.040 now there

01:30:22.920 can be

01:30:23.300 prideful

01:30:23.920 reasons for

01:30:24.580 that

01:30:24.860 but the

01:30:25.500 reason that

01:30:25.940 we value

01:30:26.440 reputation

01:30:27.100 so highly

01:30:27.780 is because

01:30:28.320 it is an

01:30:28.940 element

01:30:29.800 of the

01:30:30.880 treasure

01:30:31.180 in heaven

01:30:31.680 like if

01:30:32.960 I have a

01:30:33.540 social support

01:30:34.300 network

01:30:34.700 if

01:30:35.100 the hearts

01:30:37.120 of the

01:30:37.480 people around

01:30:38.120 me in the

01:30:38.520 broadest sense

01:30:39.220 are filled

01:30:40.060 with goodwill

01:30:40.780 to me

01:30:41.240 because I've

01:30:42.060 been unstintingly

01:30:42.920 generous in

01:30:43.700 my provision

01:30:44.360 of the good

01:30:45.820 that God

01:30:46.360 has granted

01:30:46.900 to me

01:30:47.380 there is

01:30:48.400 nothing

01:30:48.980 even possible

01:30:50.440 that could

01:30:51.120 best

01:30:52.160 make me

01:30:53.040 more secure

01:30:53.800 and

01:30:54.360 provided

01:30:55.340 with

01:30:55.580 opportunities

01:30:56.160 because

01:30:56.620 we live

01:30:57.420 in this

01:30:57.700 intensely

01:30:58.140 social

01:30:58.800 surround

01:30:59.480 I mean

01:30:59.960 even money

01:31:00.560 itself

01:31:01.120 even money

01:31:02.180 itself

01:31:02.520 is nothing

01:31:03.040 but a

01:31:03.440 promissory

01:31:04.180 note

01:31:04.540 predicated

01:31:05.300 in the

01:31:05.700 final analysis

01:31:06.320 on something

01:31:06.960 like reputation

01:31:07.860 and so

01:31:08.620 Christ's

01:31:10.020 message

01:31:10.480 is something

01:31:11.000 like

01:31:11.340 don't ever

01:31:12.660 let the

01:31:13.260 concretizations

01:31:14.200 of your

01:31:14.760 reputation

01:31:15.420 which might

01:31:16.220 be your

01:31:16.560 money

01:31:16.860 interfere

01:31:17.700 with all

01:31:18.460 those actions

01:31:19.200 that would

01:31:19.880 redound

01:31:21.180 to your

01:31:21.620 reputation

01:31:22.240 in the

01:31:23.180 space of

01:31:23.700 eternity

01:31:24.200 and I

01:31:24.880 actually

01:31:25.160 can't

01:31:25.480 think of

01:31:25.780 a more

01:31:26.040 practical

01:31:26.620 piece of

01:31:27.880 advice

01:31:28.260 than that

01:31:28.780 and because

01:31:29.280 the advice

01:31:29.740 in some

01:31:30.180 sense

01:31:30.440 is well

01:31:30.840 don't

01:31:31.840 subordinate

01:31:32.480 the higher

01:31:33.080 to the

01:31:33.500 lower

01:31:33.840 even if

01:31:35.040 it's a

01:31:35.340 fairly high

01:31:35.920 form of

01:31:36.440 high

01:31:36.780 which

01:31:37.360 material wealth

01:31:38.560 might

01:31:38.820 you know

01:31:39.100 you might

01:31:39.420 regard it

01:31:39.900 exactly as

01:31:40.540 that

01:31:40.880 you don't

01:31:41.560 want to

01:31:41.840 sacrifice

01:31:42.440 you don't

01:31:43.280 want to

01:31:43.560 sacrifice

01:31:43.960 the source

01:31:44.880 of material

01:31:45.480 wealth

01:31:45.800 to the

01:31:46.180 wealth

01:31:46.420 itself

01:31:46.920 but it's

01:31:48.040 a tricky

01:31:48.420 game

01:31:48.840 that's why

01:31:49.220 the spiritual

01:31:49.700 tradition

01:31:50.100 is so

01:31:50.860 insistent

01:31:51.420 on some

01:31:52.180 of these

01:31:52.480 exercises

01:31:53.260 and on

01:31:54.300 the stories

01:31:54.960 that are

01:31:55.260 meant to

01:31:55.700 bring you

01:31:56.360 up against

01:31:56.920 it

01:31:57.220 so you

01:31:58.180 begin to

01:31:58.640 see

01:31:59.080 that's

01:31:59.780 what's

01:32:00.000 going on

01:32:00.460 in my

01:32:00.680 life

01:32:00.920 and yes

01:32:01.560 I am

01:32:02.300 that rich

01:32:02.740 young man

01:32:03.080 I am

01:32:03.620 the prodigal

01:32:04.140 son

01:32:04.360 they force

01:32:06.720 us into

01:32:07.180 that space

01:32:07.640 because we

01:32:08.540 can talk

01:32:08.960 about it

01:32:09.280 abstractly

01:32:09.880 and I

01:32:10.320 think I've

01:32:10.840 I can say

01:32:11.960 I've

01:32:12.200 grasped the

01:32:13.000 principle

01:32:13.440 but in terms

01:32:14.660 of living

01:32:15.240 the principle

01:32:15.780 I mean

01:32:16.160 that's

01:32:16.460 that's why

01:32:17.220 I go to

01:32:17.500 confession all

01:32:18.000 the time

01:32:18.260 and that's

01:32:18.580 why you

01:32:18.980 know I'm

01:32:19.420 very aware

01:32:20.320 of my

01:32:21.200 limitations

01:32:21.800 and my

01:32:22.280 moral problems

01:32:22.960 because I

01:32:23.700 need these

01:32:24.600 stories all

01:32:25.260 the time

01:32:25.800 I need the

01:32:26.440 mass all

01:32:26.960 the time

01:32:27.380 and you

01:32:28.080 know the

01:32:28.340 sacraments

01:32:28.880 all the

01:32:29.260 time

01:32:29.640 well those

01:32:30.460 parables

01:32:30.980 in that

01:32:31.420 story

01:32:32.000 you know

01:32:32.340 those

01:32:32.700 and the

01:32:33.280 mass

01:32:33.600 those are

01:32:34.600 okay first

01:32:35.220 of all the

01:32:35.680 parables make

01:32:36.460 the semantic

01:32:37.100 imaginal

01:32:38.680 right

01:32:39.880 because

01:32:40.360 they put

01:32:41.620 flesh on

01:32:42.280 the bones

01:32:42.760 they're like

01:32:43.700 the movie

01:32:44.260 version of

01:32:45.000 the explicit

01:32:45.640 ethic

01:32:46.620 okay well

01:32:47.300 the advantage

01:32:47.900 to that

01:32:48.320 is that

01:32:48.720 like if

01:32:49.680 it's merely

01:32:50.140 a semantic

01:32:50.800 discussion

01:32:51.440 an abstract

01:32:52.020 discussion

01:32:52.700 it's difficult

01:32:53.900 to conjure up

01:32:54.940 the appropriate

01:32:55.780 surrounding emotions

01:32:57.180 but if you

01:32:58.260 place it in a

01:32:59.320 story then

01:33:00.200 you can embody

01:33:01.400 that and you

01:33:02.060 can participate

01:33:02.880 in the

01:33:03.720 emotional states

01:33:05.020 that the stories

01:33:05.740 are pointing to

01:33:06.500 it's visceral

01:33:06.940 right

01:33:07.240 it's visceral

01:33:08.140 it's embodied

01:33:09.080 that's very

01:33:09.500 biblical

01:33:09.840 the fact that

01:33:11.800 the Bible

01:33:12.420 has all these

01:33:13.400 truths but

01:33:13.900 very rarely

01:33:14.660 articulates them

01:33:15.560 in a

01:33:15.980 philosophical

01:33:16.420 way

01:33:16.820 so the

01:33:17.480 Greek

01:33:17.700 tradition

01:33:18.060 does that

01:33:18.700 but the

01:33:19.360 Bible

01:33:19.700 a little bit

01:33:20.440 in the book

01:33:20.680 of Proverbs

01:33:21.200 the book

01:33:21.540 of wisdom

01:33:21.860 there's some

01:33:22.320 moments when

01:33:22.980 it's got a

01:33:23.340 more philosophical

01:33:24.080 voice but

01:33:25.700 typically no

01:33:26.620 the Bible

01:33:27.040 speaks in

01:33:27.580 narrative language

01:33:28.460 and imagistic

01:33:29.380 language

01:33:29.920 but I think

01:33:30.880 that's probably

01:33:31.100 more accessible

01:33:31.880 to people too

01:33:32.840 because even

01:33:33.560 you know

01:33:34.740 even a simple

01:33:35.500 person can go

01:33:36.280 to a complex

01:33:37.020 movie

01:33:37.480 yes

01:33:38.360 right now

01:33:38.700 they may not

01:33:39.200 be able to

01:33:39.620 tell you

01:33:40.140 explicitly

01:33:40.760 afterward

01:33:41.520 they can't

01:33:42.980 explain the

01:33:43.500 philosophical

01:33:43.980 themes of

01:33:44.600 the movie

01:33:44.920 but that

01:33:45.320 didn't mean

01:33:45.820 they didn't

01:33:46.260 participate

01:33:46.900 in its

01:33:47.580 transformative

01:33:48.340 capacity

01:33:49.320 without being

01:33:50.740 able to say

01:33:51.300 it

01:33:51.520 right

01:33:51.800 absolutely

01:33:52.220 absolutely

01:33:53.040 absolutely

01:33:53.640 over centuries

01:33:54.940 now with

01:33:55.220 the Bible

01:33:55.620 and even

01:33:56.160 you go to

01:33:56.660 those great

01:33:56.980 churches in

01:33:57.560 Italy where

01:33:58.080 the whole

01:33:58.440 facade of

01:33:59.060 the cathedral

01:33:59.460 is biblical

01:34:00.280 stories and

01:34:01.000 biblical

01:34:01.300 characters

01:34:01.860 and people

01:34:03.480 learn these

01:34:04.240 moral truths

01:34:05.160 from those

01:34:05.900 works of

01:34:07.100 art

01:34:07.380 the tragedy

01:34:08.680 now

01:34:09.420 you know

01:34:10.140 as again

01:34:10.800 it's in the

01:34:11.400 hands of

01:34:12.620 very ham-handed

01:34:13.680 people

01:34:14.120 the new

01:34:15.160 atheist types

01:34:15.840 you know

01:34:16.140 that oh

01:34:16.540 the Bible

01:34:16.920 it's bronze

01:34:17.800 age mythology

01:34:18.620 as though

01:34:20.500 I'm judging

01:34:21.000 the truth

01:34:21.420 by when it

01:34:22.220 was written

01:34:22.620 I mean

01:34:22.820 so stupid

01:34:23.520 Aristotle

01:34:24.440 I don't

01:34:24.880 read him

01:34:25.240 because he's

01:34:25.620 pre-scientific

01:34:26.420 and I

01:34:27.000 wouldn't read

01:34:27.520 Dante

01:34:28.320 give me a

01:34:29.260 break

01:34:29.520 and these

01:34:30.040 are people

01:34:30.320 that don't

01:34:30.960 understand

01:34:31.580 how these

01:34:32.340 texts are

01:34:32.780 working

01:34:33.120 and the

01:34:33.840 themes that

01:34:34.200 we've been

01:34:34.620 throwing

01:34:34.940 back and

01:34:35.360 forth

01:34:35.580 but that's

01:34:36.380 what the

01:34:36.600 great

01:34:36.800 spiritual

01:34:37.180 tradition

01:34:37.500 and look

01:34:38.080 the brightest

01:34:38.620 people in

01:34:39.380 the west

01:34:40.020 prior to

01:34:40.780 the scientific

01:34:41.220 revolution

01:34:41.680 this is what

01:34:42.540 they studied

01:34:43.140 they studied

01:34:44.220 soul doctoring

01:34:45.180 this is soul

01:34:46.360 doctoring

01:34:46.840 even in the

01:34:46.960 scientific

01:34:47.360 revolution

01:34:47.960 I mean

01:34:48.300 Newton's a

01:34:49.200 great example

01:34:49.880 of that

01:34:50.300 well sure

01:34:50.620 you mean

01:34:51.760 they were

01:34:52.440 religious

01:34:52.820 themselves

01:34:53.320 the founders

01:34:54.060 absolutely

01:34:54.760 well I

01:34:55.180 don't

01:34:55.300 I actually

01:34:55.920 also don't

01:34:56.720 think

01:34:57.000 I don't

01:34:57.500 believe

01:34:57.880 by the way

01:34:58.500 I don't

01:34:58.840 believe that

01:34:59.260 you can be

01:34:59.680 a scientist

01:35:00.140 without being

01:35:00.880 implicitly

01:35:01.500 religious

01:35:01.840 and here's

01:35:02.860 why

01:35:03.140 you have to

01:35:04.580 believe the

01:35:05.000 world is

01:35:05.400 intelligible

01:35:06.080 intelligible

01:35:06.940 right

01:35:07.320 you have to

01:35:07.920 believe that

01:35:08.340 it's intelligible

01:35:09.100 to a human

01:35:09.680 being so that

01:35:10.380 there's a concordance

01:35:11.340 between its structure

01:35:12.240 and our cognitive

01:35:13.900 capacity

01:35:14.420 you have to

01:35:15.120 believe that

01:35:15.540 pursuit of that

01:35:17.060 relationship with

01:35:18.680 reality is a

01:35:20.180 good and that's

01:35:21.600 disputable you know

01:35:22.460 like the story like

01:35:23.280 Frankenstein stories

01:35:24.540 for example are

01:35:26.300 an indication of

01:35:27.260 the fact that

01:35:27.980 well the pursuit of

01:35:29.280 knowledge per se

01:35:30.200 isn't necessarily

01:35:31.680 a good it has

01:35:32.680 to be oriented

01:35:33.260 in the right

01:35:33.740 direction or it

01:35:34.700 can be terribly

01:35:35.200 dangerous I

01:35:36.720 don't believe and

01:35:37.540 I see I think

01:35:38.320 we're seeing this

01:35:39.020 by the way and I

01:35:40.040 think that people

01:35:40.700 like Dawkins are

01:35:41.520 seeing this and I

01:35:42.580 know that you

01:35:43.580 know you you may

01:35:44.460 have noticed that

01:35:45.240 Ayaan Hirsi Ali

01:35:46.240 and Neil Ferguson

01:35:47.360 and to some degree

01:35:48.920 Douglas Murray and

01:35:49.900 Brett Weinstein have

01:35:50.880 all come out

01:35:51.640 publicly in the last

01:35:52.920 month or two

01:35:53.800 saying that they

01:35:55.220 no longer believe

01:35:56.180 that the humanist

01:35:57.020 enterprise can aim

01:35:58.680 that good without

01:35:59.820 being embedded in

01:36:01.460 this underlying

01:36:02.080 imaginal and

01:36:02.940 metaphysical space

01:36:04.060 right now some of

01:36:05.640 them are wrestling

01:36:06.200 with that to some

01:36:07.160 degree more than

01:36:07.840 others Ayaan and

01:36:08.940 Neil Ferguson they

01:36:09.860 have converted to

01:36:10.560 Christianity now

01:36:11.900 Douglas Murray for

01:36:12.920 his part and this

01:36:13.660 is the same with

01:36:14.280 Brett Weinstein

01:36:14.920 they've started to

01:36:15.800 see that the

01:36:16.560 materialist atheist

01:36:18.160 humanist moral

01:36:19.880 enterprise is not

01:36:21.320 sustainable it is

01:36:23.160 going to it's

01:36:23.920 going to be

01:36:24.440 overcome it's

01:36:25.800 going to be

01:36:26.080 overtaken by lower

01:36:27.380 spirits right and

01:36:28.520 that's partly what's

01:36:29.360 happening on the

01:36:29.920 culture war front

01:36:30.840 you know I think

01:36:31.880 this is a very

01:36:32.320 important point and

01:36:33.060 I think it's a sign

01:36:33.840 of hope in our

01:36:34.480 situation today that

01:36:35.620 people like yourself

01:36:36.360 and many others I

01:36:37.860 think are opening up

01:36:39.180 these spiritual

01:36:40.100 treasures and you

01:36:41.140 know the church has

01:36:41.780 got help us you

01:36:42.680 know we with the

01:36:43.780 scandals and all that

01:36:44.740 and people tend to

01:36:45.360 look at the churches

01:36:46.120 as corrupt and and

01:36:47.580 then the Bible oh

01:36:48.520 yeah the Bible's old

01:36:49.400 this old book and

01:36:50.280 it's bad science and

01:36:51.420 all that is that we

01:36:52.760 we ourselves stop

01:36:54.740 teaching our

01:36:55.420 tradition effectively

01:36:56.580 and a lot of

01:36:57.120 reasons for that but

01:36:58.280 there are others

01:36:59.060 today I think who

01:37:00.100 are opening up this

01:37:02.100 tradition and and

01:37:03.140 helping people see

01:37:03.980 it and that is

01:37:05.260 enormously important

01:37:06.380 because I it's

01:37:07.860 bothered me immensely

01:37:08.740 that the rise of the

01:37:10.260 new atheism and the

01:37:11.420 among young people the

01:37:13.140 dismissal of religion

01:37:14.320 which is a very

01:37:15.440 dangerous proposition

01:37:17.200 when you start

01:37:18.840 bracketing these

01:37:19.780 truths and then you

01:37:21.220 start living in a

01:37:22.020 hyper superficial way

01:37:23.460 you live in the in the

01:37:25.120 buffered space you

01:37:26.260 know as Charles Taylor

01:37:27.200 puts it that's very

01:37:29.320 dangerous ground to be

01:37:30.620 honest and that we

01:37:32.560 know that's the ground

01:37:33.760 where we're a

01:37:35.000 multiplicity of malevolent

01:37:36.760 spirits can invade your

01:37:38.240 heart yes possess it

01:37:39.420 unbeknownst to you and

01:37:40.700 this quite right

01:37:41.560 strange concatenation of

01:37:43.120 pride and hedonism that

01:37:44.880 characterizes the modern

01:37:46.040 world it's so interesting

01:37:47.380 how those are so tightly

01:37:48.500 allied that is the

01:37:49.540 horror of Babylon and the

01:37:50.660 great beast of

01:37:51.400 revelation right it's the

01:37:52.640 same idea the eternal

01:37:54.380 the eternal threat to

01:37:55.920 mankind is that the

01:37:56.980 state will deteriorate

01:37:58.240 and become multi-headed

01:37:59.320 and that female sexuality

01:38:01.220 and hedonism will will

01:38:02.780 will deteriorate in

01:38:04.120 parallel to that and that

01:38:05.680 is it's not like see this

01:38:07.500 is where Dawkins and the

01:38:08.900 new atheists are naive they

01:38:12.140 believe that you could

01:38:13.100 supplant superstition with

01:38:14.700 rationality and first of

01:38:16.780 all all of what was being

01:38:18.840 supplanted was not

01:38:20.100 superstition that's the first

01:38:22.340 thing and the second thing

01:38:23.360 is well react rationality

01:38:25.900 serving what master well

01:38:28.060 we can serve our own

01:38:29.100 master it's like yeah you

01:38:30.500 can hey good luck you're

01:38:32.000 serving Satan well no

01:38:33.740 that's right that's how it

01:38:36.340 is that's how it works out

01:38:37.820 yeah no right I mentioned

01:38:40.820 Bob Dylan earlier but you

01:38:41.940 do the Ignatian exercises at

01:38:43.480 a certain point you come to

01:38:44.580 this two standards meditation

01:38:46.760 and it's simply you're meant

01:38:48.520 to imagine two armies you

01:38:49.980 know the army of Christ the

01:38:51.000 army of Satan and which one

01:38:53.380 are you going to join and

01:38:54.720 it's as simple as that and

01:38:55.760 you say oh no I don't want

01:38:57.040 to join either army then

01:38:58.020 you're in Satan's army I

01:38:59.620 don't I can't decide yet

01:39:00.840 you're in Satan's army I'd

01:39:03.080 like to join Christ's army

01:39:04.200 but I'm not ready you're in

01:39:05.380 Satan's army and so

01:39:06.740 Ignatius compels you to the

01:39:08.760 Bob Dylan moment you know

01:39:09.980 you've got to serve

01:39:11.220 somebody here now it's going

01:39:12.960 to be the devil or the Lord

01:39:14.200 meaning it's going to be the

01:39:15.620 sumum bonum or some

01:39:16.880 simulacrum there's no other

01:39:18.960 option there's no some around

01:39:20.360 yeah and come right and

01:39:22.020 coming to that point for

01:39:24.420 Ignatius that's what what

01:39:25.800 spiritual life is all about is

01:39:27.300 to is to bring yourself to

01:39:28.580 that point and make that

01:39:30.280 decision and then by God live

01:39:32.220 by it live according to that

01:39:34.400 to that decision that's an

01:39:37.440 excellent place to stop sir and

01:39:39.680 we should stop because we have

01:39:41.280 to have our half an hour

01:39:42.380 conversation for the daily

01:39:44.400 wire for everyone watching and

01:39:45.880 listening you can continue to

01:39:47.200 join us there and we're going

01:39:49.480 to be able to continue our

01:39:50.680 conversation at some length in

01:39:52.680 April just so everyone

01:39:53.960 watching and listening knows

01:39:55.240 we're going to do a seminar on

01:39:57.000 the gospels for the daily wire

01:39:58.420 akin to the seminar we did on

01:40:00.160 exodus and we're going to have a

01:40:01.840 chance to discuss this with

01:40:03.160 great thinkers at length and to

01:40:05.940 walk through all of this and it's

01:40:07.380 very exciting time because it it

01:40:09.380 does appear that the the

01:40:11.820 underlying structure of the sorts of

01:40:13.660 things that we're discussing is

01:40:14.840 starting to become clearer and

01:40:16.460 clearer in front of us right that

01:40:18.280 does present us with a starker

01:40:20.000 choice the choice that you

01:40:21.640 describe so and that's at the

01:40:23.740 base of this culture war as far as

01:40:25.540 I can tell very good talking to

01:40:27.540 you as it always is thank you very

01:40:29.080 much for joining me today thank you

01:40:30.900 to all of you watching and

01:40:32.440 listening and to the daily wire

01:40:34.220 people for facilitating this and

01:40:36.080 we'll see you in a short couple of

01:40:39.760 months God bless you Jordan

01:40:41.340 you

431. The True Stories That Drive Spiritual Growth ｜ Bishop Barron

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