The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast


432. The End of the Tent Cities ｜ Minister Jason Nixon


Summary

Jason Nixon is Minister of Seniors, Community and Social Services in Alberta. In this episode, we discuss the growing problem of homeless people living in tents across the province, and the steps the government is taking to address the problem. He also shares his personal story of growing up in a homeless environment, and how he became a social worker and advocate for those who found themselves in similar situations. We also discuss the dangers of sleeping in the elements, and what is being done in response to them. This episode is sponsored by Sensodyne Sensitivity, which is a non-dairy, non-allergenic tooth care product developed in the late 1800s and used to treat sensitive teeth. Did you know that the two leading causes of sensitive teeth are irritated gums and weak enamel? Switch to Sensodynite Sensitivity Gum and Enamel, which can relieve sensitivity, help restore gum health, and re-enhance enamel. 3 issues, one answer: 1) 1. What s sensitive teeth? 2) How to prevent them? 3) Why they need to be cared for? 4) What s going on in the tent cities? 5) Why are they so bad? 6) How can we stop them? 7) What are we doing to deal with them? 8) What can we do about them? 9) What should we do? What s happening in Alberta s approach to dealing with the problem? 10) How have we learned from the situation in Edmonton, Alberta's Tent City Problem? 11) How do we know what to do about it? 12) Why do we need to do better? 13) How are we going to stop them in the first place? 14) 15) What kind of tent cities in the future? 16) What is the future of the tent city epidemic? 17) What do we have to do in the city of Edmonton, what s going to happen in the next five years? 18) How will we get there? 19) What's going to be the best way to do it in the rest of North America? And so on and so on? 22) What will we learn from this next? 21) What would you like to hear from the Prime Minister do in this episode? 26) What we can do to stop the problem in Canada? 27) Is there a model for you, Canada can we learn?


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Did you know that the two leading causes of sensitive teeth are irritated gums and weak enamel?
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00:00:13.200 Three issues, one answer.
00:00:14.660 Hi, everyone.
00:00:30.820 I had the opportunity today to speak with Mr. Jason Nixon.
00:00:35.100 He's Minister of Seniors, Community, and Social Services in Alberta.
00:00:42.080 Why did I want to talk to him?
00:00:43.780 Well, the Albertans, under Danielle Smith, have taken a very forthright stance recently, for example, against the trans butchery and deceit that increasingly characterizes the Western world.
00:00:57.720 But more, they've also taken forthright action in relationship to the springing up of all these so-called tent cities that now blight the landscape throughout North America and elsewhere.
00:01:08.680 And they haven't done that in a heavy-handed and punitive way.
00:01:13.480 They've done that in a very intelligent and thoughtful way.
00:01:16.880 They've removed 200 of approximately 300 cities already in Alberta and really began the enterprise only in December.
00:01:23.820 And I think what's happening in Alberta, I'm hoping what's happening in Alberta, could be a model for what could happen in jurisdictions like North America-wide.
00:01:34.060 And so that's why I decided to do this podcast.
00:01:36.660 And with Mr. Nixon, he has a very interesting history.
00:01:40.000 His father had lived on the street as an addict and alcoholic and was rehabilitated relatively young in his life and then spent the rest of his life helping homeless and addicted people.
00:01:52.060 And Jason grew up in that environment.
00:01:54.340 He grew up surrounded by homeless people, even in his own house.
00:01:58.020 And so this is a man who's actually walked the walk.
00:02:02.160 And he knows what he's doing by all appearances.
00:02:04.400 That's what we're all praying.
00:02:05.480 And so we walked through his personal experience and also the details, all of the details, or as many as we could manage, with regards to what's happening in Alberta, cleaning up the tent cities, so to speak, and rehabilitating the people who, for one reason or another, were unfortunate enough or badly aimed enough to end up there.
00:02:25.560 So it's a hopeful dialogue, and I'm hoping that what's happening in Alberta could be a model for the Western world.
00:02:36.580 So join us.
00:02:38.860 Well, thank you for sitting down with me and with all my guests today.
00:02:43.000 I'm very interested, as you know, in what's going on in Alberta broadly.
00:02:50.020 But the initial focus for our conversation is going to be what steps you are taking within the confines of Premier Daniel Smith's government to deal with the so-called tent city epidemic, problem, social phenomenon that's evident all over North America and is new and surprising.
00:03:18.620 So tell me what the situation is in Alberta and also maybe how we got there.
00:03:26.060 Well, I think I'll start with how we got there, you know, particularly our capital city in our province, which is Edmonton.
00:03:31.980 And we started to see a real significant situation when it came to tent cities.
00:03:37.160 Some people in our communities, we'll call them encampments, but where we were seeing hundreds of encampments across the city of Edmonton with hundreds of structures within those tent cities.
00:03:46.760 And really a desire, frankly, by the city of Edmonton to embrace those encampments in some way.
00:03:55.200 And when I say the city, I'm referring to the municipality, to some members of the government who ultimately have, you know, by law control and have the responsibility to keep the city clean.
00:04:04.760 We certainly have some overlap responsibility about caring for the poor and dealing with some of the health issues that are involved, of course.
00:04:11.920 But in general, usually the city is who deals with it.
00:04:14.260 And over time, we just saw these encampments get bigger and bigger and more and more problems come as a result of that.
00:04:20.800 And so the chief of police from Edmonton came and saw our government and our premier, for your international viewer and American viewers, that's like a governor, and came in and laid out for us what they were seeing in those encampments.
00:04:32.760 And I have to tell you, it was pretty alarming.
00:04:34.620 It was shocking.
00:04:36.200 You know, we were hearing stories about underage girls, for example, being sexually exploited inside those encampments.
00:04:42.680 They showed significant evidence of the gangs operating inside these encampments and charging people to even use the tents and to be able to access resources like water fountains or other things that would be in the area.
00:04:54.940 The police were pulling out of those encampments weapons that were quite alarming.
00:05:00.180 Obviously, they were seeing lots of stolen goods, finding dead bodies, and most horrifying because, of course, our country is very cold.
00:05:07.780 They were seeing people that lost their lives as a result of burning to death in these tents because they were trying to heat them with propane and different type of mechanisms to try to stay warm and survive in the elements here.
00:05:19.220 And so in some of those pictures, we could not even release to the media.
00:05:21.840 It was just that shocking what was taking place.
00:05:24.820 And so we got clear instructions from our premier to get to work and to come up with a new plan when it came to those encampments, which we got to work on right away.
00:05:33.300 And this happened just before Christmas this year, so just a few weeks ago.
00:05:36.760 And as a result of that, we launched immediately a task force led by my ministerial department on social services side, but with support of a variety of departments.
00:05:46.740 We put together what we've called the Navigation Center.
00:05:49.580 So that's a structure within the city of Edmonton where we were able to bring all of the services together, everything from health to housing supports, income supports, prescriptions, even things as simple as giving people ID so that they could be able to move forward with their lives.
00:06:03.660 And then we supported the police, and we went in, and we started tearing down all those encampments.
00:06:08.640 And we started to have some pretty amazing results I look forward to talking with you about.
00:06:13.180 But we made a pretty clear statement that our province is no longer going to tolerate this.
00:06:18.200 One, because it's not safe for the people in the encampments, but also it's just not right for a place like Edmonton.
00:06:23.220 And Edmontonians deserve to have a clean city where we can live, where they can live happily and enjoy their lives.
00:06:28.920 Okay, so let's take this apart.
00:06:31.480 So you said, first of all, how long ago did this problem start to mount, do you think?
00:06:37.220 Because there weren't tent cities in Edmonton when I lived there back in the 1980s, that's for sure.
00:06:43.660 And I visited many times.
00:06:45.540 I mean, there are tent cities now in Toronto too, and that's a completely new thing.
00:06:48.660 So when did you guys really start to become aware of this as a mounting problem?
00:06:53.700 You know, we started to see tent cities pop up in Edmonton probably over the last two or three years.
00:06:59.460 But in particularly over the last year, year and a half, where it would really become basically every corner that you turned, particularly within the downtown core of the city of Edmonton.
00:07:08.740 The other thing that was new, though, was we were also seeing those tent cities well outside of the downtown areas.
00:07:13.660 And so they were starting to pop up all across the city.
00:07:16.620 But that was probably the timeline around Edmonton.
00:07:18.520 And I think, you know, we really saw that a lot in our country in places like Hastings and Vancouver, which have a real bad tent city culture and drug culture inside that city.
00:07:27.840 But it was kind of more new to our area over the last couple of years.
00:07:31.700 Okay, so it's about two or three years now.
00:07:33.720 You said that there were, in Edmonton alone, how many people live in Edmonton now, just so everyone has a sense of its size?
00:07:40.940 We're getting up towards a million.
00:07:42.340 I believe Edmonton's somewhere north of 800,000.
00:07:44.920 I don't have the number around, but that'd be the right area.
00:07:47.900 Yeah, okay.
00:07:48.840 And you said there were literally hundreds of encampments and that some of them had hundreds of tents.
00:07:54.720 Is that right?
00:07:56.100 That is 100% correct.
00:07:57.540 Hundreds of encampments.
00:07:58.780 And inside some of those encampments, you know, I think the biggest encampment I'm aware of was 400 plus structures.
00:08:03.760 Oh, yeah.
00:08:04.300 Okay, okay.
00:08:05.040 So that's starting to approach village size, essentially.
00:08:08.360 Well, you know, as a member of the Legislative Assembly here in Alberta, I represent villages that are smaller than some of these encampments.
00:08:14.540 Okay, okay.
00:08:15.280 So now, why in the world do you think this happened so rapidly in the last two or three years?
00:08:23.260 What's changed?
00:08:24.880 Is it housing costs?
00:08:26.040 I mean, housing costs have gone out of control in Canada.
00:08:28.660 Everyone knows that.
00:08:29.480 And interest rates have gone up a lot.
00:08:31.140 And so, but that alone seems to me to be unlikely as a causal explanation.
00:08:36.800 So, you know, how, why is this happening?
00:08:40.300 Who are these people in the main and where did they come from?
00:08:44.100 Yeah, you know, housing is a real issue in our country, particularly given some of the bizarre federal policies that we've seen from our federal government in Canada and the inflationary problems that we see in North America.
00:08:55.700 But I want to be clear, the challenge when it comes to 10 cities is not a housing challenge.
00:09:00.880 Housing is one of the consequences of somebody who ends up in these situations.
00:09:05.280 They don't have housing.
00:09:06.160 But it's not a root cause of why somebody ends up inside a 10 city.
00:09:10.360 The reality is that lots of this has to do with drugs.
00:09:12.520 Lots of this has to do with mental health in other circumstances.
00:09:15.400 And I think there are some people who want to frame this discussion, like mom and dad who lost their job in the oil industry and somehow are struggling to pay their mortgage.
00:09:23.560 That's a very real issue inside our country and our province that we need to address and we are working on as a society.
00:09:29.820 But that's not what this is.
00:09:31.400 These individuals that find themselves in these encampments, lots of it's drug related.
00:09:35.500 And we are seeing that without a doubt when we go into these encampments.
00:09:38.800 And, you know, I really, it drives me nuts personally as a minister responsible for this in our province that certain elements on the left continue to want to discuss this issue in the context of housing.
00:09:48.220 It's not.
00:09:48.960 The root causes of homelessness and why people are in 10 cities are something very, very different.
00:09:53.580 And he asked why, what has changed so that we would see that more.
00:09:56.780 There has been much more a culture, certainly in our country, of accepting abusive behavior to oneself, including using drugs.
00:10:04.860 And a concept that we need to embrace that and accept that putting poison into people's bodies is how we help them deal with things like addiction.
00:10:13.260 And that's something our province has rejected underneath the leadership of multiple premiers, but particularly Premier Smith, where our province has been really dedicated on focusing on addiction recovery and helping individuals in this circumstance.
00:10:25.140 But there's certainly elements of our province that just want to let it continue.
00:10:28.820 And so some of that is what's undertone of all of this issue when it comes to encampments and 10 cities inside our province.
00:10:35.320 Okay, so let me push on that because I want to make sure that I understand this completely.
00:10:40.540 All right, so you make the somewhat surprising claim, I would say, that in your opinion, a small percentage of the variance in this problem is accounted for by economics specifically related to housing.
00:10:56.260 Now, it's interesting to me to have you say that because if you were inclined to make political points, you could do that just as effectively on the housing and inflation side as you could on the drug use tolerance side, let's say, right?
00:11:10.420 So I can't see any a priori reason why you would come down as a political agent on one side of that argument or another.
00:11:17.500 But what is it that's made you so convinced that it is, in fact, a drug problem?
00:11:23.220 To what degree is it an alcohol problem as well?
00:11:26.760 And what drugs are primarily the cause at the moment?
00:11:32.500 And is that part and parcel of the new wave of drugs that has entered the North American economy?
00:11:38.920 So, like, are you certain that it's drugs and alcohol?
00:11:42.500 How much alcohol?
00:11:43.580 How much drugs?
00:11:44.520 Which drugs?
00:11:45.260 So, again, I want to be very clear.
00:11:47.680 I don't dispute that we have housing challenges.
00:11:50.160 And you're right.
00:11:51.080 I can make political statements on that alone that I think could be very clear.
00:11:56.040 But that's a different issue.
00:11:57.200 And why I'm so certain about that is because of what we're seeing from the individuals that we've now been able to successfully get out of these encampments into our social services process with supports around them.
00:12:07.840 And the vast majority, I would say all, have some sort of mental health issue.
00:12:12.760 And the vast majority are also facing addiction issues as a result.
00:12:15.960 And so, we're seeing things like fentanyl, which is a major drug that is impacting all of our societies across North America and the world.
00:12:23.580 We're seeing much more of that in our communities now.
00:12:26.180 Methamphetamine is a real big issue inside our communities.
00:12:29.140 There certainly is alcohol.
00:12:30.040 But, you know, and some of these drugs are changing.
00:12:32.920 You know, fentanyl is a major drug that has been evolving on the streets.
00:12:36.000 It has real serious fatal consequences to individuals involved.
00:12:39.740 But that is what is taking place inside these 10 cities.
00:12:43.840 Often, it's a place where individuals seem to be going to be doing drugs.
00:12:47.000 The one other thing that we found out, I actually should point out, is that the vast majority of individuals that we're interacting with in these encampments afterwards are also using our emergency shelter system and other services in our province to be able to stay warm, to get food, to get other resources to be able to survive on the streets.
00:13:02.680 But they're using those 10 cities as a place to be able to score drugs, as a place to be able to use drugs.
00:13:07.860 And that is the culture that is taking place in most of these 10 cities.
00:13:11.620 I'm not saying every person, but certainly the vast majority of who we interact with in these 10 cities has got some sort of drug and or alcohol addiction.
00:13:20.300 Oh, okay.
00:13:20.820 So, let's take that apart a little bit.
00:13:22.660 I mean, so, back in the early 70s, that's really when it started, there was an anti, a leftist, anti-psychiatry and anti-institutionalization movement.
00:13:33.440 It was driven in part by the kinds of concerns that were brought to light by movies such as One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, which really was quite a genius movie and a great novel and written by a psychiatric orderly who had seen plenty of abusive situations within institutions.
00:13:48.820 To be clear, they were hardly places you would go for a picnic.
00:13:53.080 But the leftist solution to that was to demonize the psychiatric profession and to deinstitutionalize, and the solution was to produce community alternatives that would help integrate these oppressed people who had been falsely diagnosed with mental illness by evil psychiatrists back into the community.
00:14:12.380 Well, suffice it to say, those additional resources were never made available, not in any fundamental way, and many of the so-called mental illnesses those people had were actual illnesses and not figments of totalitarian psychiatrists' imagination.
00:14:32.120 And so, deinstitutionalization, what deinstitutionalization really meant was that many mentally ill people ended up in prison.
00:14:39.560 That was the fundamental, yeah, or on the streets.
00:14:43.100 And so, this homeless epidemic is a late-stage consequence of the fact that we don't have, we abandon our attempts to provide proper institutional care.
00:14:54.260 So, we'll get back to that.
00:14:55.640 Now, you said that the vast majority of the people who are in these tent cities have a drug or multiple drug and alcohol problem,
00:15:05.760 and that they are utilizing all sorts of other resources, but that they're using the tent cities in particular as a place to gather and get easy access to their illicit drugs.
00:15:17.340 Now, obviously, if you're not naive out of your skull, that's an amazing opportunity for gangs, for drug-peddling gangs, especially the ones that are peddling the hard and addictive drugs.
00:15:31.520 And so, you know, the problem with this hyper-compassionate approach, these poor people, they need a place to live, they might as well move into the parks, who are we to stop them from having a place to live?
00:15:45.840 They're all economically challenged, is that it belies the reality of the drug addiction problem that you described and the criminality that goes along with it.
00:15:55.540 But there's something even worse, there's something even more nefarious about it.
00:15:59.080 It completely eliminates the possibility that even if you brought a group of people who were suffering together in this unstructured manner,
00:16:08.680 all you would do is invite the psychopathic gangs to come in and take control.
00:16:14.080 Now, you said that's what's happened, that not only are these tent cities, so-called, places of massive drugs distribution,
00:16:22.380 there are sources of ongoing revenue for not only for gangs, but for organized gangs, and so for, like, hardcore, multiple offense, dead set against the public order criminals,
00:16:34.100 to prey on people who are vulnerable, the addicted population, let's say, and to prey on them in a multitude of ways.
00:16:43.720 You know, you skipped over some very interesting details, like they're being charged to stay in the tents.
00:16:50.360 Well, by who? It's not like anybody owns those tents, or the land, okay?
00:16:55.780 They're being charged to get access to water.
00:16:58.700 And then there's, what, prostitution gangs?
00:17:01.900 And if not prostitution gangs, what, open rape?
00:17:04.720 Like, exactly what did you guys see when you started delving into this subculture produced by the toxically compassionate?
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00:18:50.440 So, you're 100% right.
00:18:55.780 And when I say gangs, I'm talking about very organized gangs.
00:18:59.340 Definitely organized crime.
00:19:01.360 The police brought the government very clear evidence, which they have presented to the media,
00:19:05.140 including photographic evidence of what is taking place inside these tent cities
00:19:09.000 that show that the gangs have control within them
00:19:11.960 and are certainly abusing vulnerable people as a result of that.
00:19:16.480 It's obviously a place where they're selling drugs.
00:19:18.640 It's obviously a place where people are getting access to things that they should not.
00:19:23.320 But we also have received clear evidence that people are being charged even to get to water fountains
00:19:28.060 as a common thing that the police have brought to us.
00:19:31.140 We have, and this for me personally was one of the things that I was just shocked
00:19:35.380 that the media in my province did not cover as much as they should.
00:19:39.080 Some of the early tent cities that they went into,
00:19:41.580 the police came out with evidence of minor children being sexually exploited within these tent cities.
00:19:50.160 That alone, for me, was enough that we needed to tear them all down.
00:19:53.560 Full stop, completely unacceptable.
00:19:55.880 So, you know, and then the other thing that I should point out
00:19:57.980 that the chief of the Edmonton Police Service really has done a good job of articulating it for the media
00:20:02.340 is how much stolen property in and of itself is being stored within these tent cities.
00:20:06.940 I mean, they went to this one area where there was a mound of bicycles that were clearly stolen
00:20:11.700 that were bigger than me.
00:20:13.540 And, Jordan, I'm a real big guy.
00:20:15.360 I'm about six foot eight.
00:20:16.540 He has a big pile of stolen property.
00:20:19.000 And so there's been clear evidence time and time again
00:20:21.600 that documents what is taking place with the gangs inside these areas.
00:20:25.440 And you're right.
00:20:26.360 They are exploiting the most vulnerable amongst us.
00:20:28.980 And so it's not safe.
00:20:30.520 And I think the key point to this is it's not safe for the people in the tent cities.
00:20:34.400 And it's not safe for Edmontonians.
00:20:36.900 And I think this is the same circumstance you would see in any other major city in North America
00:20:41.260 where these tent cities are taking place.
00:20:43.660 Yeah, well, it's also, it's not safe for a variety of reasons.
00:20:47.540 I mean, here's a compelling reason.
00:20:49.520 So imagine you set up a set of essentially lawless domains.
00:20:55.040 And in consequence, you produce a specialized breed of psychopathic criminal
00:21:00.460 who is then highly organized.
00:21:02.500 It's like, if you think that that highly organized criminal gang is going to limit
00:21:06.880 its criminal activity to the tent city once it's established, you're an absolute bloody fool.
00:21:11.440 And so we know, for example, as criminologists that, and I did a lot of work as a researcher
00:21:16.640 in the area of antisocial personality and criminology,
00:21:19.740 1% of the criminals are responsible for 65% of the crimes.
00:21:23.720 You let those long-term life course psychopathic repeat offenders get away with what they're doing,
00:21:32.140 you're going to reap the whirlwind, right?
00:21:34.200 It's a very, very bad idea.
00:21:36.620 And so now why do you think, okay, so let's ask two questions.
00:21:41.100 Who are these gangs and where do they come from, right?
00:21:45.180 And who's running in the drugs?
00:21:46.960 How much of that's coming from China?
00:21:49.040 Who's controlling the distribution?
00:21:50.500 Do you guys have a sense of that?
00:21:52.580 And, well, let's start with that.
00:21:55.320 You know, in Alberta, the way I've been briefed with our law enforcement support
00:21:59.780 is that we're seeing a variety of gangs, particularly Indigenous gangs,
00:22:04.440 when you're in the Edmonton area that are operating on the street.
00:22:06.980 But we also have clear evidence of actually cartels, including Mexican cartels,
00:22:11.080 and some of this coming from the Asian market, to your point,
00:22:15.120 all operating here within the province of Alberta.
00:22:17.340 So these are pretty seriously organized gangs.
00:22:21.020 A lot of that is to bring in the drugs, obviously, to our street,
00:22:24.320 and then they're using our street gangs, which are often Indigenous on the streets,
00:22:28.000 to be able to move that product through places like tent cities.
00:22:31.800 Okay, so you made reference to the Mexican cartels.
00:22:34.980 Let's start with the Mexican cartels and the Asian supply.
00:22:38.300 So do you have any more details on either of those fronts?
00:22:42.140 It's a lovely thing to imagine now that the Mexican cartels are operating not only in the southern U.S.,
00:22:48.140 but in Alberta itself.
00:22:49.500 That's a real accomplishment on our part, I must say.
00:22:52.120 And so Mexican cartels and Asian supply,
00:22:55.280 I presume the Asian supply is mostly associated with fentanyl?
00:22:58.980 Yes, that is correct.
00:23:00.520 And, you know, the best person in our government to talk to about this
00:23:03.020 is obviously our public safety minister who's managing this closely
00:23:05.520 and be the one giving us this information.
00:23:07.060 But we certainly have clear evidence of cartels bringing drugs,
00:23:11.540 particularly across our southern border.
00:23:14.380 And frankly, we're now starting to see inside our province
00:23:17.240 where we're becoming an exporter of things like fentanyl.
00:23:20.220 So some of the products are being brought up here to be made on our side of the line
00:23:24.520 and then now brought back even down to the south,
00:23:26.800 which is quite a new thing for the province of Alberta.
00:23:29.520 But certainly, you know, it explains some of the circumstances
00:23:32.500 that we're seeing in our province.
00:23:34.200 And I would say, Jordan, that Edmonton for us,
00:23:37.260 which our capital city, is probably one of our smaller drug problems.
00:23:40.640 You know, one of the bigger areas we're seeing
00:23:42.840 some of our largest drug problems on the street is actually in Lethbridge,
00:23:46.120 which interestingly enough is the closest city to the American border,
00:23:50.620 a large city in our province to the American border.
00:23:53.300 And really, I think, is a proof point that some of that drugs
00:23:57.200 is starting there because of what's taking place on the border,
00:24:00.480 which is why we're seeing some of the most potent and deadly drugs
00:24:03.480 inside the Lethbridge area as it works its way into the street culture.
00:24:07.600 Right. So maybe I should also at some point talk to the public safety minister.
00:24:12.060 So, OK, and then you mentioned indigenous gangs.
00:24:14.660 OK, so now, again, when I lived in Alberta in the 1980s,
00:24:17.460 now that's getting to be quite a long time ago, 40 years ago,
00:24:20.480 there weren't organized indigenous street gangs.
00:24:24.080 Or if there were, there were very few of them.
00:24:25.980 I mean, Edmonton was a stunningly safe place with the exception of a few blocks downtown,
00:24:31.820 which by, say, American standards were still relative,
00:24:36.600 American downtown dangerous standards was still pretty civilized.
00:24:41.000 There was just not a problem.
00:24:42.480 So what's shifted in Alberta and what is the makeup and origin of these indigenous gangs?
00:24:50.500 Well, I think what's shifted is the money in the drug markets for sure
00:24:55.040 would provide more ability for gangs to become more and more organized.
00:24:59.940 And, you know, the police have been out in our province
00:25:02.420 very clearly establishing who these gangs are.
00:25:04.960 And they're the ones who are giving me as a cabinet minister
00:25:06.920 that information of what is taking place there.
00:25:09.800 I mean, obviously, my job is to provide that social services support
00:25:13.180 to individuals within these tent cities.
00:25:15.220 But we're working closely with the police
00:25:16.920 who are the ones coming and briefing us about the dangers of gangs.
00:25:20.500 And there is no doubt in the city of Edmonton,
00:25:22.500 but also across our province,
00:25:24.000 that we continue to see that organized gang element increasing.
00:25:27.240 My personal view is, and I think the police would agree with me,
00:25:30.140 that a lot of that is being driven, obviously, by drugs.
00:25:32.720 And, you know, I, as I think you know,
00:25:35.120 I used to work in a homeless shelter.
00:25:37.120 I grew up in a homeless shelter.
00:25:38.240 My father is the founder of one of the largest homeless shelters
00:25:41.240 and organizations that work with the poor in Western Canada
00:25:43.700 here in Calgary called the Mustard Seed.
00:25:45.760 And we did not see anything like this type of drug activity
00:25:49.840 even 15 years ago.
00:25:51.880 You know, we would never have imagined a spot
00:25:54.640 where we would see individuals working within shelters
00:25:57.060 seeing multiple overdoses a day
00:25:59.000 and sometimes multiple fatalities in a week inside their facilities.
00:26:02.960 And that just shows you what's changed as far as the drug market,
00:26:06.320 which is logical what is driving this organized crime element
00:26:10.000 because of the money that would be involved in that.
00:26:12.120 Okay, so let's delve a little bit into the contribution
00:26:14.800 of federal policy into producing this situation.
00:26:17.840 So I know that the situation that you're describing in Alberta
00:26:21.260 is even more out of hand, let's say, in British Columbia,
00:26:23.960 especially in Vancouver.
00:26:25.080 And Vancouver is a much bigger city with a much darker center.
00:26:29.100 I mean, Vancouver had some downtown places
00:26:31.480 that were like seriously bad 40 years ago.
00:26:34.020 And so, and that's certainly spreading on the Western coast.
00:26:36.940 Now, my understanding is that Canada at the federal level
00:26:42.980 in some ways took a page from some of the European countries
00:26:47.360 that were experimenting with decriminalizing drug use.
00:26:51.040 Now, I have some sympathy for that viewpoint
00:26:53.780 because it isn't obvious to me
00:26:55.620 that the so-called war on drugs was a success.
00:26:58.520 And I think that its attempt to crack down too brutally
00:27:03.800 on users of, at least in the past,
00:27:08.220 somewhat more benign substances like cannabis,
00:27:11.180 and I mean benign in comparison to alcohol, say, which is legal,
00:27:14.700 I think a fair bit of that was misguided.
00:27:16.900 But I do know that countries like Portugal, for example,
00:27:21.220 that spearheaded this,
00:27:23.280 they didn't just reduce the penalties
00:27:25.940 for drug use and distribution,
00:27:28.940 let's say sales and distribution.
00:27:30.640 They did that in concert with
00:27:33.060 what seemed to be the kind of things
00:27:35.620 that you guys are trying to pull off in Alberta, right?
00:27:38.160 It wasn't like the Portuguese allowed people
00:27:40.700 to be stoned out of their mind derelicts on the streets
00:27:44.560 just because they stopped criminalizing
00:27:46.740 use of even the harder drugs.
00:27:48.560 And my understanding is that in Canada,
00:27:50.700 we did the first part, which was the easy part,
00:27:53.140 the decriminalization that allowed the moralists
00:27:56.020 to hand wave about how compassionate and wonderful they were.
00:27:58.900 But we didn't do the second part,
00:28:00.620 which was the conscientious part
00:28:02.760 that involved the identification, treatment, cleanup,
00:28:06.900 and even sometimes criminal prosecution
00:28:09.040 of people who had gone a little too far
00:28:11.260 down the drug-taking hedonistic road, let's say.
00:28:14.060 So, how do you see the problem
00:28:17.040 that's developed in Alberta
00:28:19.440 as a manifestation of a broader change
00:28:23.400 in legislation at the federal level
00:28:25.840 with regards to drug policy?
00:28:28.700 Yeah, and let me just first start by saying
00:28:31.020 we're very proud our province has not become
00:28:33.340 what's happening in BC yet,
00:28:34.860 and we're not going to let that happen.
00:28:36.420 That's why we're taking this action
00:28:37.640 to make sure that we don't end up
00:28:39.280 in circumstances like that here in Alberta.
00:28:41.520 And you're exactly right.
00:28:42.640 There is, there's been an effort and a drive,
00:28:46.140 particularly by politicians on the left in our country,
00:28:49.640 to approach this issue of addiction
00:28:52.420 in a way that essentially just accepts it as a disease
00:28:55.880 and continues to give the poison
00:28:58.260 that is causing the consequences
00:28:59.800 to these individuals to them,
00:29:01.680 and not work on and giving tools
00:29:04.720 to be able to help an individual recover
00:29:06.440 in those circumstances.
00:29:07.880 We don't want to, I want to be very clear on this,
00:29:10.020 we don't want to go arrest and put somebody in jail
00:29:12.300 because they have a drug addiction.
00:29:13.480 That's not happening in my province.
00:29:15.360 The opposite is happening.
00:29:16.600 We are reaching out to those individuals,
00:29:18.320 we're getting them into circumstances
00:29:19.820 where they can be safe,
00:29:20.800 and we're providing them with the resources
00:29:22.480 that they need to be able to recover.
00:29:24.280 What the other side of this argument believes
00:29:26.920 is that you need to just put them in a place
00:29:29.180 like a tent or an apartment paid for by the taxpayer
00:29:31.740 and continue to allow them to have poison
00:29:34.240 put into their body,
00:29:35.620 and that somehow they will either magically get better.
00:29:37.680 Well, the reality is they won't.
00:29:38.720 I call that palliative care for drug addicts.
00:29:40.920 And that is where really the big difference is
00:29:43.560 in our philosophy.
00:29:44.740 It's a death sentence,
00:29:45.500 particularly when you're dealing with things like fentanyl
00:29:48.160 and these type of drugs now.
00:29:49.280 I mean, it's just going to get you at some point.
00:29:51.200 I mean, alcoholism,
00:29:52.040 which could be a real tough circumstance,
00:29:53.460 and we're dealing with that too on the streets,
00:29:54.960 but that is many decades to get to what we're seeing
00:29:58.260 some of these new drugs do to people
00:29:59.680 in weeks on our streets.
00:30:01.620 The reality is that there's no safe supply
00:30:03.900 when it comes to fentanyl.
00:30:05.120 You cannot take fentanyl safely.
00:30:08.280 Eventually, you're going to OD.
00:30:09.460 This is why inside medical facilities,
00:30:11.800 even where people are taking fentanyl,
00:30:13.740 often paid for by the government
00:30:15.000 or other types of chemicals like that,
00:30:18.080 you'll have to have nurses there
00:30:20.520 to be able to interact with overdoses.
00:30:22.880 Our government really believes
00:30:25.080 we need to go the other way,
00:30:26.340 which is that we need to reach out
00:30:27.660 to individuals in this circumstance.
00:30:29.840 We need to invest in resources
00:30:31.520 that they will need to deal with,
00:30:33.060 deal with root causes that have caused
00:30:34.740 their circumstances
00:30:35.900 and give them a way to be able to recover.
00:30:38.240 And that's where it comes.
00:30:39.760 But I think the tent cities prove that we're right
00:30:42.200 because the reality is
00:30:43.700 if anybody thinks putting an individual in tents
00:30:46.700 in minus 50 degrees Celsius in Canada
00:30:49.920 is a safe way to live
00:30:52.100 with propane tanks exploding
00:30:53.860 and people burning to death
00:30:55.220 and all the things that I have just described today,
00:30:57.780 that is more safer than what Alberta is saying,
00:31:00.100 which is come on to the shelters,
00:31:01.780 let's get resources around you
00:31:03.400 and let's help you get better.
00:31:04.920 And you know what's interesting, Jordan,
00:31:06.060 is the individuals that are coming out of the encampments,
00:31:08.360 most of them actually want what we're bringing forward.
00:31:10.880 And that's why in the last three weeks
00:31:12.320 as we've done encampments,
00:31:13.580 over 200 of those individuals coming out
00:31:15.600 have gone to what we call our navigation centers
00:31:17.680 so they can navigate support.
00:31:19.420 They've received over 500 referrals
00:31:21.240 to different services.
00:31:22.560 Many of them now are in permanent housing
00:31:24.060 type of circumstances,
00:31:25.560 actively working on their recovery,
00:31:27.560 dealing with the medical circumstances
00:31:29.100 that may be around them.
00:31:30.180 And ultimately, many of them will go on
00:31:31.780 to have productive lives.
00:31:32.760 That's what you want.
00:31:33.580 That's humane.
00:31:34.320 What the other side is selling
00:31:35.320 is just accepting that somebody's going to die
00:31:37.360 and giving them a death sentence.
00:31:38.840 I like that you use those words
00:31:40.580 because I think it's true.
00:31:41.780 That's the result of what they're doing.
00:31:44.020 Oh, yeah. No doubt about it, yeah.
00:31:45.020 You will not survive that.
00:31:45.400 Well, there's always made if that fails, you know, so.
00:31:47.780 Yeah, exactly.
00:31:48.320 Okay, okay.
00:31:49.180 So let's, now,
00:31:50.140 I was interested in you,
00:31:52.100 in talking to you in part
00:31:53.860 so that we could walk through
00:31:55.480 a description of the tent cities
00:31:57.520 and then, even more importantly,
00:31:59.080 shed some light on the fact
00:32:00.640 that such cities are almost immediately taken over
00:32:03.680 by the most psychopathic gangs
00:32:05.480 you can possibly imagine.
00:32:07.020 That's an important thing to establish
00:32:08.740 because it eradicates the notion
00:32:10.820 that this is some kind of compassionate approach
00:32:13.220 to these poor, unhoused people
00:32:15.040 who are just trying to live, you know,
00:32:16.460 in a happy community.
00:32:17.640 No. Wrong.
00:32:19.240 Okay, but mostly why I wanted to talk to you
00:32:22.460 was on the remediation and treatment side.
00:32:26.520 So, the first thing I want to ask you
00:32:29.260 is about your sociological goal.
00:32:33.880 Now, you implied at the beginning
00:32:35.360 of this conversation
00:32:36.300 that there aren't going to be
00:32:38.340 any more tent cities in Alberta.
00:32:40.260 Now, is that the goal?
00:32:41.600 Like, to return to 30 years ago, say,
00:32:45.320 where there weren't tent cities.
00:32:47.120 That just didn't happen.
00:32:48.360 You know, there's the odd person under a bridge.
00:32:50.660 There's the odd homeless person.
00:32:52.400 It was very, very rare.
00:32:53.500 There certainly weren't communities
00:32:55.360 of homeless people.
00:32:56.180 So, is your government's goal
00:32:58.680 to attain that end?
00:33:02.160 And if so, how far along are you
00:33:06.280 and what's your timeline?
00:33:08.500 So, yes, our goal is to make sure
00:33:10.540 that we are not seeing dangerous tent cities
00:33:12.460 inside our cities.
00:33:14.060 You know, I can't outright say
00:33:15.220 that we would ever be able
00:33:16.340 to fully eliminate, you know,
00:33:17.920 tent cities could pop up at any time,
00:33:19.680 but that we would stop in the future
00:33:21.880 this being the management tool
00:33:23.340 to help with this population
00:33:24.520 and instead that we would invest
00:33:26.200 in proper resources.
00:33:27.620 And most importantly,
00:33:28.380 what our government's doing
00:33:29.240 that I think is courageous
00:33:30.240 is that we're actually stepping in
00:33:32.220 as a subnational government
00:33:33.840 to support a municipal police force
00:33:35.800 to take down those encampments.
00:33:37.880 And we're going to do that
00:33:39.160 for two different reasons.
00:33:41.120 One is to help the individuals in,
00:33:42.540 which I'll get to in a minute,
00:33:43.480 the individuals that are
00:33:44.220 in those encampments.
00:33:45.240 But second, to help our citizens
00:33:47.520 who live in places like Edmonton.
00:33:49.660 Edmontonians don't deserve
00:33:50.500 to have this in their community no more.
00:33:51.800 They deserve to be able
00:33:52.780 to walk down the streets
00:33:53.720 and feel safe.
00:33:54.840 You know, the last three weeks
00:33:55.800 as we tore down encampments, Jordan,
00:33:57.700 our team with the city of Edmonton
00:34:00.000 collected 129 tons of garbage
00:34:02.660 out of these tent cities alone,
00:34:04.720 including 3,000 needles.
00:34:06.520 So it just shows you
00:34:07.360 what is taking place
00:34:08.860 inside those tent cities
00:34:10.380 and how dangerous it is
00:34:11.420 to the rest of the community.
00:34:12.800 But we want to go one step further.
00:34:14.380 We want to then make sure
00:34:15.240 these individuals receive
00:34:16.200 full wraparound supports
00:34:17.700 and the best opportunities
00:34:18.980 that they can to overcome
00:34:20.760 the situation
00:34:21.400 that they find themselves in.
00:34:22.740 We're not delusional.
00:34:24.060 We do realize
00:34:24.640 there's still going to be
00:34:25.200 homeless people,
00:34:25.940 but we don't believe
00:34:26.720 it should be this many.
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00:35:33.920 Okay, so we'll go
00:35:37.600 to the treatment
00:35:38.180 of individuals
00:35:38.880 in a moment.
00:35:39.640 So I want to flesh out
00:35:40.880 the sociological element
00:35:42.160 a bit more first.
00:35:43.600 So, first of all,
00:35:45.000 I'd like to ask you,
00:35:46.380 you know,
00:35:46.640 one of the things
00:35:47.240 that's happening
00:35:47.800 in Toronto
00:35:48.340 is that the tent cities
00:35:49.600 increasingly occupy
00:35:50.780 public spaces.
00:35:52.260 And I think
00:35:52.920 that's utterly inexcusable
00:35:54.300 because I don't believe
00:35:55.540 that the municipality,
00:35:57.160 for example,
00:35:57.760 has a right
00:35:58.540 to either take away
00:36:01.080 parks from people,
00:36:02.420 including children
00:36:03.840 who use those parks
00:36:05.080 more than any other
00:36:05.920 than any other people
00:36:07.420 and need them,
00:36:08.820 especially in the cities.
00:36:10.000 They certainly don't have
00:36:10.960 the right to take those away.
00:36:12.140 They don't have the right
00:36:12.920 to take them away
00:36:13.740 and award them
00:36:14.500 to other people
00:36:15.320 who don't own them
00:36:16.480 and haven't purchased them
00:36:17.780 and have no contractual
00:36:20.100 right to them whatsoever.
00:36:21.860 And they also don't have
00:36:23.620 the right to fail
00:36:24.720 to protect those parks.
00:36:26.240 And so,
00:36:27.300 tell me where you saw
00:36:29.440 the tent cities
00:36:30.460 emerging
00:36:31.560 and what that meant
00:36:33.140 just in terms of
00:36:34.340 occupation of land
00:36:35.640 for the people,
00:36:36.940 say,
00:36:37.060 in the surrounding
00:36:37.580 neighbourhoods.
00:36:38.960 So,
00:36:39.520 I've seen tent cities
00:36:40.360 emerge in many
00:36:41.620 different type of
00:36:42.580 locations within the city,
00:36:43.840 but you're right.
00:36:44.540 Most often,
00:36:45.540 it ends up inside
00:36:46.400 the green spaces
00:36:47.180 in the city.
00:36:48.000 And I know you know
00:36:48.960 Amittons or the beautiful
00:36:49.960 River Valley of the
00:36:50.920 North Saskatchewan River
00:36:51.820 that flows right
00:36:52.420 through that city.
00:36:53.160 You would see tent cities
00:36:54.360 all through that area.
00:36:55.240 And well,
00:36:55.440 that's areas where people
00:36:56.320 go and jog
00:36:56.960 and they ride their bikes
00:36:58.240 on the weekend.
00:36:58.880 They take their dogs
00:36:59.580 for a walk
00:37:00.100 and it's part of
00:37:01.340 wanting to live
00:37:02.200 in the city
00:37:02.600 and being able
00:37:03.080 to get outside
00:37:03.760 within that area
00:37:04.780 that you call home.
00:37:05.800 You see the same thing
00:37:06.600 in Calgary along
00:37:07.340 their beautiful
00:37:07.800 Bow River
00:37:08.240 that flows through
00:37:08.820 that city.
00:37:09.280 That's often where
00:37:09.900 you would see
00:37:10.300 tent cities pop up.
00:37:11.660 I've also heard
00:37:12.360 horror stories,
00:37:13.280 particularly in the
00:37:13.980 city of Lethbridge,
00:37:15.120 which I mentioned
00:37:15.720 has a really tough
00:37:16.660 drug problem right now,
00:37:18.100 of families trying
00:37:18.940 to take their children
00:37:19.700 out inside playgrounds
00:37:21.280 in local community parks
00:37:22.500 and them ended up
00:37:23.680 being sometimes
00:37:24.400 punctured by needles
00:37:25.660 or other things
00:37:26.620 that are happening
00:37:27.120 because of the tent cities
00:37:28.060 that have occupied
00:37:28.900 that little park.
00:37:30.480 It may not be
00:37:31.240 as big of a tent city
00:37:32.120 as we sometimes see
00:37:32.940 in Edmonton.
00:37:33.420 It may only be
00:37:33.980 four or five
00:37:34.540 instead of hundreds,
00:37:35.460 but it's inside
00:37:36.880 that area
00:37:37.360 where children
00:37:38.000 are playing.
00:37:38.720 So you're right,
00:37:39.580 it takes away
00:37:40.300 from people being
00:37:41.840 able to enjoy the city
00:37:42.860 and the green space
00:37:43.720 that they have.
00:37:44.780 And Banff National Park
00:37:46.540 inside our province,
00:37:47.860 for some of your
00:37:48.780 American viewers,
00:37:49.560 very similar to Yellowstone,
00:37:50.840 a pretty beautiful place.
00:37:51.920 I like it.
00:37:53.000 I can't just take my tent
00:37:54.540 and set it up
00:37:55.500 anywhere I want
00:37:56.400 and start living
00:37:57.220 and causing trouble
00:37:58.580 for everybody else
00:37:59.260 who wants to be able
00:37:59.800 to come and enjoy the park.
00:38:00.860 It's a silly argument
00:38:02.100 for anybody
00:38:03.080 in municipal politics
00:38:04.140 to say that this is
00:38:05.220 the right thing to do
00:38:06.640 for their constituents
00:38:07.540 is to allow something
00:38:09.100 like this beautiful
00:38:09.700 green spaces
00:38:10.440 to be wrecked
00:38:11.500 for the people
00:38:12.140 that they represent.
00:38:14.200 Okay, so now
00:38:15.080 you touched on
00:38:15.860 a couple of other things
00:38:16.940 there too
00:38:17.380 that are interesting.
00:38:18.500 So I know that
00:38:20.480 surprisingly enough,
00:38:22.460 Alberta is a relatively
00:38:24.220 conservative province
00:38:25.560 until relatively recently.
00:38:27.440 It was mostly
00:38:28.040 a rural province.
00:38:29.060 It has the reputation
00:38:30.820 and I would say
00:38:31.840 it's deserved to some degree
00:38:33.060 of being something
00:38:33.840 approximating the Texas
00:38:35.100 of Canada.
00:38:36.540 And yet,
00:38:37.400 what I see happening
00:38:38.520 from the outside,
00:38:39.500 and please correct me
00:38:40.520 if I'm getting this wrong,
00:38:42.620 is that increasingly
00:38:43.940 there is a standoff
00:38:46.060 in Alberta
00:38:47.600 of sorts
00:38:48.280 between radical
00:38:50.120 leftist municipal governments
00:38:52.080 and the more conservative
00:38:53.820 provincial government.
00:38:55.420 And I think that that's
00:38:57.200 particularly manifest
00:38:59.880 in Calgary,
00:39:01.280 secondarily manifest
00:39:02.480 in Edmonton,
00:39:03.100 and then I don't know enough
00:39:04.060 about Lethbridge comments.
00:39:05.460 So tell me
00:39:06.640 to what degree
00:39:07.360 this situation
00:39:09.620 has been set up
00:39:10.900 not only as a consequence
00:39:12.540 of idiotic
00:39:14.140 federal policies
00:39:15.160 that are virtue signaling
00:39:16.840 and spineless,
00:39:18.960 and also not in the least
00:39:20.920 compassionate
00:39:21.560 nor productive.
00:39:22.760 None of that.
00:39:23.660 Not accomplishing the ends
00:39:25.820 that the policies themselves
00:39:26.940 were designed
00:39:27.540 in principle to accomplish.
00:39:29.160 There's a federal component
00:39:30.360 to this,
00:39:30.960 but then there's also
00:39:31.720 a municipal component.
00:39:33.220 And one of the things
00:39:34.560 I've observed happening
00:39:35.580 in Canada
00:39:36.180 and in the United States,
00:39:37.840 but really in Canada,
00:39:39.100 is that the radical leftist,
00:39:42.080 faux-compassionate,
00:39:43.360 narcissistic types
00:39:44.600 have seized control
00:39:46.440 of the smaller elements
00:39:48.200 of the governmental institutions,
00:39:50.320 including municipal governments.
00:39:52.320 So I know that you have
00:39:53.640 to step somewhat carefully
00:39:54.900 given your position in Alberta
00:39:57.200 in relationship
00:39:57.940 to such a discussion.
00:39:59.120 But, you know,
00:39:59.780 we did allow
00:40:01.520 for some criticism
00:40:02.620 of the federal government
00:40:03.900 and its relationship
00:40:04.880 with the province.
00:40:05.980 Well, there's no reason
00:40:07.200 not to do the same thing
00:40:08.220 on the other side.
00:40:09.400 What's the situation
00:40:10.540 with the municipalities?
00:40:12.060 And then,
00:40:13.100 well, there's a segue in there
00:40:14.440 because you also mentioned
00:40:15.500 that there's a strange cooperation
00:40:17.800 between the provincial government
00:40:19.620 and the municipal police
00:40:21.700 on this front,
00:40:22.840 which is quite strange, right?
00:40:24.140 Because it means that
00:40:24.860 the province is going
00:40:26.280 around the municipal governments
00:40:30.040 directly to the police.
00:40:31.380 That's a strange...
00:40:32.200 So can you flesh that out for me
00:40:33.860 so I can understand it
00:40:34.840 more thoroughly?
00:40:35.680 Yeah.
00:40:35.980 Well, let me start
00:40:36.740 with the police.
00:40:37.600 So, you know,
00:40:38.040 in our structure,
00:40:39.420 something like the Edmonton Police
00:40:41.100 would answer
00:40:41.620 to a police commission.
00:40:42.980 So while they are
00:40:43.640 a municipal-funded organization,
00:40:45.000 also funded by the province
00:40:46.480 to a certain amount,
00:40:48.840 the chief of police
00:40:49.820 answers to a police commission
00:40:51.040 not to city council.
00:40:52.380 And so that puts the chief
00:40:53.660 in an interesting spot.
00:40:56.460 And when we have somebody
00:40:57.760 like the chief of police
00:40:58.560 of Edmonton come to us
00:40:59.600 and say,
00:40:59.920 I'm dealing with a crisis.
00:41:01.280 I think I need you guys' support.
00:41:03.080 This is an emergency situation.
00:41:04.660 The cool part about my province
00:41:06.000 is our government's prepared
00:41:07.200 to jump in,
00:41:08.120 even if it's a little bit unorthodox,
00:41:09.660 because we know we need
00:41:10.520 to support that important
00:41:11.780 law enforcement agency.
00:41:12.900 And you're right.
00:41:14.740 There is some interesting dynamics there.
00:41:16.560 That would be
00:41:16.940 the Edmonton Police Service.
00:41:18.220 And I think some of those dynamics
00:41:19.740 are probably more
00:41:20.560 that the municipal council
00:41:22.720 has to navigate more than us,
00:41:24.120 because we just want to get to work
00:41:25.280 and be able to help people.
00:41:26.620 I will say this,
00:41:27.900 that we're obviously,
00:41:29.220 we're happy to work
00:41:29.920 with every municipal government.
00:41:31.180 We recognize that they're elected.
00:41:32.380 That is our job as a province
00:41:33.640 and we will do so.
00:41:34.700 But you are correct.
00:41:35.780 I'm happy to say
00:41:37.300 that our large cities
00:41:39.040 over time seem to have
00:41:40.320 more left-wing mayors
00:41:43.080 and often city councillors,
00:41:44.540 though not all of them,
00:41:45.800 than certainly my conservative party
00:41:47.620 here in the province of Alberta.
00:41:49.120 I don't think I'm saying anything
00:41:50.640 that would shock anybody,
00:41:52.200 given that the current mayor of Edmonton
00:41:54.020 is a former Trudeau cabinet minister.
00:41:56.080 I'm not saying anything
00:41:56.620 about him personally.
00:41:57.460 He's certainly not on the same side
00:41:58.760 of the political spectrum.
00:42:00.060 And I think what's happened over time
00:42:01.760 is if they're on that side of,
00:42:04.020 and that's their ideology
00:42:04.940 on that side of the political spectrum,
00:42:06.700 certainly they're going to start
00:42:07.640 to believe in some of these ideas,
00:42:09.660 which is that, you know,
00:42:10.920 somehow you can magically
00:42:11.880 help somebody get better
00:42:12.700 by giving them the poison
00:42:13.780 that's killing them over and over.
00:42:15.640 But I want to also, though,
00:42:16.900 be clear that I think often
00:42:18.600 that it's coming,
00:42:19.240 maybe even from a good spot.
00:42:20.640 I actually think lots
00:42:21.700 of these individuals truly believe
00:42:23.220 that this will help
00:42:24.460 these individuals get better sometimes.
00:42:26.840 But the reality is
00:42:27.600 that they're not looking at it.
00:42:28.900 Yeah, see, I don't believe that.
00:42:29.300 I don't believe that.
00:42:30.140 Because, well,
00:42:31.160 the reason I don't believe it
00:42:32.520 is because there is
00:42:34.260 a tremendous danger
00:42:35.480 in using a false compassion
00:42:37.780 to elevate your own
00:42:39.300 moral virtue publicly.
00:42:41.180 And there are ancient prescriptions
00:42:43.120 against doing such things.
00:42:44.740 So the third commandment,
00:42:46.820 depends on how you count them,
00:42:48.100 is to not use God's name in vain.
00:42:50.340 And what that really means is
00:42:51.620 do not attribute to yourself
00:42:54.100 moral virtue
00:42:55.860 for pursuing something
00:42:57.320 that merely furthers
00:42:58.540 your own agenda.
00:42:59.760 And I see plenty of that
00:43:00.960 on the compassionate left.
00:43:02.120 And it's also a variant
00:43:03.660 of praying in public
00:43:04.820 along with all the protests.
00:43:06.040 It's like,
00:43:06.960 look how good I am.
00:43:08.840 Look how much I care.
00:43:10.080 It's like,
00:43:10.660 yeah, did you do any
00:43:11.600 of the goddamn work?
00:43:13.520 Like, have you ever worked?
00:43:15.200 Yeah.
00:43:15.480 Exactly.
00:43:16.140 Let me say that a different way.
00:43:17.960 So then you have a politician
00:43:19.180 like that who is
00:43:20.600 a true believer in it.
00:43:22.060 And I believe that,
00:43:23.200 you know,
00:43:23.820 you got to be blind
00:43:24.840 not to realize
00:43:25.980 what I presented today
00:43:27.260 is actually hurting people
00:43:28.360 and that your ideology is wrong
00:43:30.080 and that you're willing
00:43:31.060 to allow people to be hurt
00:43:32.360 to continue down
00:43:33.280 presenting your ideological beliefs.
00:43:35.540 But what happens,
00:43:36.260 I think,
00:43:36.620 is then you have politicians
00:43:37.960 in that circumstance
00:43:38.740 that are confusing
00:43:39.720 everyday people
00:43:40.900 who don't fully understand
00:43:41.980 this issue.
00:43:42.660 And they may be looking
00:43:43.620 at things like on the news
00:43:44.620 and they're going,
00:43:45.680 hey, that's probably
00:43:46.820 the better compassionate way
00:43:47.860 to do it
00:43:48.200 because they don't have
00:43:48.780 all the details that I have.
00:43:49.900 But then when you hear
00:43:50.700 the details that I just present,
00:43:52.320 you got to be going,
00:43:53.000 well, actually,
00:43:53.400 that conservative government's right.
00:43:54.920 I mean,
00:43:55.080 do you want my approach,
00:43:56.660 which is to reach in,
00:43:57.760 send a warm bus,
00:43:58.980 load everybody up,
00:43:59.780 bring them to a nice warm facility,
00:44:01.200 give them shower foods
00:44:02.420 and access to medical resources,
00:44:04.840 treatment,
00:44:05.260 including rehabilitation treatment
00:44:06.920 for their addiction
00:44:07.600 or to be left inside a tent
00:44:09.120 freezing to death,
00:44:10.260 taking poison, right?
00:44:11.460 And that's what I mean by that.
00:44:13.280 I think, you know,
00:44:14.260 that ends up creating a spot
00:44:15.860 where very good people
00:44:17.060 then end up supporting
00:44:18.600 this approach
00:44:19.180 because they don't,
00:44:19.760 you know,
00:44:19.900 they're everyday people,
00:44:20.440 they're working.
00:44:20.940 They just watch this on the news
00:44:22.020 and they go,
00:44:23.100 hey, well,
00:44:23.320 that maybe makes sense
00:44:24.340 and they don't understand
00:44:25.100 that in the end
00:44:25.880 they ended up supporting
00:44:26.700 an ideology
00:44:27.280 that's actually killing people.
00:44:28.480 Yeah, no,
00:44:29.040 look, I agree.
00:44:29.940 I think that,
00:44:30.500 well, that's exactly
00:44:31.200 why I wanted to do this podcast
00:44:32.560 and now I think
00:44:33.340 we should get to the nitty gritty,
00:44:35.320 which is not that
00:44:36.660 all of this was irrelevant,
00:44:38.140 but the real relevant issue here is,
00:44:40.700 you know,
00:44:41.840 what the hell are you doing
00:44:43.540 that's going to work?
00:44:44.420 So let me give a preamble to this.
00:44:46.080 So for everyone watching
00:44:47.140 and listening,
00:44:48.140 there's two major,
00:44:49.100 there's a concatenation
00:44:50.140 of two major problems here.
00:44:51.600 The first problem is that
00:44:52.920 antisocial behavior
00:44:55.140 and drug use overlap.
00:44:57.200 And so why is that a problem?
00:44:59.020 Well, the first problem is
00:45:00.120 there is nothing
00:45:01.640 in the psychological literature
00:45:03.220 that's more intractable
00:45:04.900 to treatment
00:45:05.580 once it's established
00:45:06.880 than antisocial
00:45:08.440 slash criminal behavior.
00:45:10.060 And there's absolutely
00:45:11.100 no indication
00:45:11.980 in the clinical literature
00:45:13.100 that it can be ameliorated.
00:45:15.560 So for example,
00:45:16.440 the standard penological doctrine
00:45:18.980 of well-versed criminologists
00:45:21.080 is that if you have
00:45:23.020 a truly repeat offender
00:45:25.540 who has an antisocial history
00:45:27.780 stemming back into
00:45:29.120 like early teenagehood
00:45:30.920 or even before
00:45:31.900 in the form of bullying
00:45:33.340 and violent behavior
00:45:35.020 as a child,
00:45:36.000 the best thing to do with them
00:45:37.640 since no treatment works
00:45:39.300 is basically to incarcerate them
00:45:41.480 till they burn out
00:45:42.600 in their late 20s.
00:45:44.400 And people can shrug their shoulders
00:45:46.900 and get squawky about that
00:45:48.780 and bitch about it all they want.
00:45:50.100 But I would have been thrilled
00:45:53.500 if I would have gone
00:45:54.800 through the research literature
00:45:56.020 and found any exceptions
00:45:57.980 to that absolutely dismal prognostication
00:46:00.800 in the 30 years
00:46:02.240 I've analyzed the literature
00:46:03.560 and have been unable to do so.
00:46:05.740 It's very, very, very, very difficult
00:46:08.400 to treat antisocial behavior.
00:46:10.900 Okay, then you add
00:46:12.820 the next layer of complication,
00:46:14.840 which is difficult as it is
00:46:16.800 to treat antisocial behavior.
00:46:18.240 It's perhaps equally difficult
00:46:20.660 to treat drug and alcohol addiction.
00:46:24.020 Alcohol often being primary
00:46:25.900 among the problems
00:46:27.280 that are difficult to treat.
00:46:28.360 There's no evidence whatsoever,
00:46:30.400 generally speaking,
00:46:31.460 that residential treatment centers,
00:46:33.060 for example,
00:46:33.700 have any beneficial long-term effect.
00:46:36.060 They do function
00:46:38.160 to get people off alcohol
00:46:39.860 while they're in the centers,
00:46:41.380 but almost invariably
00:46:42.900 what happens is that
00:46:43.860 when you put the people treated
00:46:46.020 back into their old environment,
00:46:47.780 they instantly relapse.
00:46:49.180 Now, this is not to say
00:46:50.460 that no one ever recovers
00:46:51.940 because most people do,
00:46:54.060 in fact, straighten back up,
00:46:56.280 but it isn't obvious at all
00:46:58.360 how treatment can do that.
00:46:59.800 So that puts policy people like you
00:47:04.060 in a really tough bind
00:47:05.300 because you're dealing
00:47:06.640 with a population
00:47:07.500 that's very, very, very hard to serve.
00:47:10.080 And so the first thing
00:47:11.720 I would like to know,
00:47:12.460 you talked about
00:47:13.120 these uni service centers.
00:47:15.400 So I would like to know
00:47:16.760 just what does it mean
00:47:20.340 to offer people treatment?
00:47:21.780 How do you tear down
00:47:23.100 these tent cities exactly?
00:47:24.960 Like, what are the nuts
00:47:26.260 and bolts involved in that?
00:47:27.960 The process.
00:47:29.180 You're like, what do you do?
00:47:30.440 Do you go in there
00:47:31.080 and just like,
00:47:32.420 tell me how you clean up the cities
00:47:33.980 and then tell me
00:47:34.920 how it is that people
00:47:36.980 are directed into treatment?
00:47:38.220 And then we'll get into
00:47:38.980 the worst problem of like,
00:47:40.120 does it actually work?
00:47:42.020 So I'll start with
00:47:42.920 how we're dealing with it.
00:47:44.500 Now, Edmonton's
00:47:45.220 where we're piloting this approach
00:47:46.780 and I think we're going to
00:47:48.220 mimic it elsewhere in our province
00:47:49.680 because we are pretty excited
00:47:51.260 about the results.
00:47:52.000 But let me tell you
00:47:52.540 what we do first.
00:47:53.260 So obviously,
00:47:54.360 my social services team
00:47:55.880 at the Ministry of Social Services
00:47:57.800 is in contact with the police.
00:48:00.100 The police inform us
00:48:00.920 that the encampment is coming down
00:48:02.160 and they deal with
00:48:02.840 the law enforcement side of that.
00:48:04.360 So deal with any elements
00:48:05.780 that they may encounter in there
00:48:06.900 that obviously need to be arrested,
00:48:08.260 warrant issues
00:48:08.820 that are taking place.
00:48:09.800 They handle law enforcement,
00:48:10.900 but we're there.
00:48:11.220 So they move in?
00:48:12.460 Like, okay,
00:48:12.820 so they make a decision.
00:48:14.340 And what are the laws
00:48:15.740 under which they're,
00:48:17.280 under what legal pretext
00:48:20.420 do they move in?
00:48:22.980 Why do they have the right
00:48:23.960 to do this?
00:48:25.180 So two issues
00:48:26.100 that we primarily use,
00:48:27.360 one is around
00:48:28.160 just straight up
00:48:28.660 bylaw enforcement.
00:48:30.000 And, you know,
00:48:30.280 there's obviously rules
00:48:31.140 about being able
00:48:32.500 to just go build structures
00:48:33.600 in different municipalities.
00:48:35.100 And the second
00:48:35.840 and more common one
00:48:36.680 of late from my understanding
00:48:37.700 is around fire safety issues.
00:48:39.140 I mean,
00:48:39.280 we have had some
00:48:39.920 pretty serious fires
00:48:41.000 and propane tank explosions.
00:48:42.880 The numbers
00:48:43.380 are quite staggering.
00:48:44.840 And so it is
00:48:45.560 a legitimate fire issue.
00:48:46.920 And so the police
00:48:47.480 have to come in.
00:48:48.100 They're not the firefighters,
00:48:49.080 obviously,
00:48:49.420 but the police
00:48:49.820 have to come in
00:48:50.460 because of the safety issues
00:48:51.880 that are involved.
00:48:52.840 Now,
00:48:53.100 do you warn the people beforehand?
00:48:55.560 And how many policemen
00:48:56.740 do you need
00:48:57.460 per number
00:48:58.280 of tent city occupants?
00:49:00.520 What are the logistics here?
00:49:02.660 Yeah.
00:49:03.240 So the city of Edmonton
00:49:04.380 has an encampment policy
00:49:06.400 where they were
00:49:07.060 trying to put upon
00:49:08.240 the police,
00:49:08.880 I believe,
00:49:09.200 to provide 72 hours notice
00:49:10.640 that they were going
00:49:11.460 to go into those tent cities.
00:49:12.940 This is something
00:49:13.740 we actually disagreed with
00:49:15.120 because the reality
00:49:15.920 was that just caused
00:49:16.740 people either to move.
00:49:17.800 It certainly gave a heads up
00:49:19.140 to that organized crime element
00:49:20.520 that there was about
00:49:21.120 to be law enforcement activity.
00:49:23.160 And so, you know,
00:49:24.020 since we,
00:49:24.900 and there was a court case
00:49:25.900 taking place
00:49:26.440 in our province
00:49:27.100 from some activist groups
00:49:28.720 who were trying to
00:49:29.700 stop the police
00:49:30.860 from being able to do this
00:49:31.820 or enforce
00:49:32.780 notice requirements.
00:49:35.460 The city of Edmonton
00:49:36.720 and the police
00:49:37.620 actually won that case
00:49:38.820 and that has allowed us
00:49:39.660 to be able to go in
00:49:40.420 and be able to address this
00:49:41.500 without notice.
00:49:43.540 And so what happens
00:49:44.200 is obviously we're notified.
00:49:45.840 We arrive with the police.
00:49:47.440 And when I say we,
00:49:48.240 I mean social workers
00:49:49.480 and our team
00:49:50.100 that are designed
00:49:50.940 to support the police.
00:49:52.080 They work closely with them.
00:49:53.480 The police secure the area.
00:49:54.700 They deal with their end of it.
00:49:56.200 But at that point,
00:49:56.920 we have a warm bus
00:49:57.920 right there,
00:49:58.920 ready to go.
00:49:59.880 Everybody is offered
00:50:00.920 an opportunity
00:50:01.480 to be able to go
00:50:02.020 to what we call
00:50:02.560 our navigation center.
00:50:04.140 Hey, that's everybody.
00:50:05.260 So that you offer
00:50:05.980 that to everybody
00:50:06.700 in the camp.
00:50:07.620 And what's the biggest camp
00:50:09.560 that you guys
00:50:10.200 have managed to take on
00:50:11.220 at a time?
00:50:12.800 Well, I think the biggest camp
00:50:14.300 that I've heard of
00:50:15.000 would be 300,
00:50:16.540 350 structures
00:50:17.640 since we started
00:50:18.580 this process.
00:50:19.980 Interestingly enough,
00:50:20.820 though,
00:50:20.940 you would only find
00:50:21.560 probably a few dozen people
00:50:22.660 actually within
00:50:23.580 that tent city
00:50:24.700 when we arrived.
00:50:25.660 Oh, I see.
00:50:26.320 I see.
00:50:26.640 OK, so you're looking
00:50:27.540 at numbers under 100
00:50:28.700 when you're moving in
00:50:30.460 and you're...
00:50:31.060 OK, OK, so...
00:50:32.300 And so that's, what,
00:50:33.800 five or six buses,
00:50:35.400 four or five buses,
00:50:36.320 something like that?
00:50:37.180 Did you know
00:50:38.040 that the two leading
00:50:38.820 causes of sensitive teeth
00:50:40.160 are irritated gums
00:50:41.220 and weak enamel?
00:50:42.460 Switch to Sensodyne
00:50:43.520 sensitivity gum
00:50:44.540 and enamel.
00:50:45.420 With twice-daily brushing,
00:50:46.640 you can relieve sensitivity,
00:50:48.020 help restore gum health,
00:50:49.180 and re-harden enamel.
00:50:50.480 Three issues,
00:50:51.380 one answer.
00:50:52.980 Yeah, it would depend
00:50:53.860 on the circumstance.
00:50:54.660 Obviously, there's been,
00:50:55.640 there'd be police intelligence
00:50:56.800 and our, you know,
00:50:57.700 our team would be
00:50:58.840 given a rough idea
00:50:59.900 of what they think
00:51:00.540 is going to be coming.
00:51:01.320 While we're arriving
00:51:02.060 on scene,
00:51:02.660 they're ready going back
00:51:03.400 to that navigation center.
00:51:04.640 They're saying,
00:51:05.040 here's how many people
00:51:05.620 we think we have coming in.
00:51:07.180 You know,
00:51:07.620 one of the big things
00:51:08.200 we have there
00:51:08.580 is we have the ability
00:51:09.180 for them to be able
00:51:09.900 to load and tote
00:51:10.780 their personal belongings.
00:51:12.120 We don't want anybody
00:51:12.720 to lose their stuff.
00:51:14.220 We even take pets, Jordan.
00:51:15.900 We can load the pets
00:51:16.740 up on that bus.
00:51:18.240 Couples can go together
00:51:19.420 and we get them
00:51:20.100 from there
00:51:20.740 to the warm navigation
00:51:21.760 center.
00:51:22.240 And they arrive
00:51:22.760 at that navigation center.
00:51:24.620 There's showers available
00:51:25.840 right away.
00:51:26.920 There's food, coffee,
00:51:28.440 things that people may need.
00:51:29.940 Obviously, it's a warm location.
00:51:31.600 We also have shelter beds there
00:51:33.480 for, you know,
00:51:34.820 sometimes people need
00:51:35.600 to dry out
00:51:36.300 or something that may
00:51:37.120 take place.
00:51:38.040 Obviously, there could be
00:51:38.580 medical circumstances
00:51:39.760 that need to be addressed.
00:51:41.700 Obviously, anybody
00:51:42.320 who would need a hospital,
00:51:43.300 of course,
00:51:43.580 we would use paramedics.
00:51:44.540 We would get them
00:51:45.100 immediately to emergency.
00:51:46.620 But beyond that,
00:51:47.660 everything else can be handled
00:51:48.660 in that navigation center.
00:51:50.000 And so when you get there,
00:51:50.820 you'll, you know,
00:51:52.020 you interact with our staff
00:51:53.380 and then there's multiple
00:51:54.500 different stations
00:51:55.520 throughout it,
00:51:56.120 which I'll talk about.
00:51:57.120 And the genius,
00:51:58.080 I think,
00:51:58.320 of what we've done here
00:51:59.020 is we've brought,
00:51:59.600 instead of trying
00:52:00.600 to take this person
00:52:01.800 from, you know,
00:52:02.740 these tent cities
00:52:03.560 all over the city
00:52:04.780 to all these different services,
00:52:05.880 we brought all the non-profits,
00:52:07.860 all the government services
00:52:08.840 together in one spot
00:52:10.120 to come around
00:52:10.980 that individual.
00:52:11.620 And so they'll arrive
00:52:13.020 and they can get
00:52:13.840 full medicals.
00:52:14.980 There's doctor,
00:52:15.680 or there's our medical teams
00:52:17.200 for the street
00:52:17.700 that can deal with that,
00:52:19.320 access to prescriptions.
00:52:21.500 You know,
00:52:21.660 one of the most
00:52:22.300 interesting things
00:52:23.320 that you find
00:52:24.260 that a lot of individuals
00:52:25.300 in this circumstance
00:52:25.980 need is ID.
00:52:26.860 They don't have ID no more.
00:52:28.180 So we have our,
00:52:29.000 our, our ministerial colleagues
00:52:30.880 over in Service Alberta
00:52:31.880 who handle our ID
00:52:33.400 in our province.
00:52:34.160 They're there right on site.
00:52:35.160 They can give temporary ID
00:52:36.320 immediately to these individuals
00:52:37.700 and then we can get
00:52:39.020 their permanent ID
00:52:39.840 ordered,
00:52:40.220 all the pictures.
00:52:41.300 They obviously have access
00:52:42.640 then to income supports,
00:52:44.440 be able to register
00:52:45.180 for things
00:52:45.620 that they may be entitled to
00:52:46.860 that they did not know.
00:52:48.340 And then ultimately
00:52:49.500 towards things like
00:52:51.060 temporary housing,
00:52:52.560 emergency housing,
00:52:53.380 and eventually
00:52:53.720 permanent housing resources
00:52:54.980 so they can interact
00:52:55.900 with those individuals.
00:52:56.920 And of course,
00:52:58.240 access to drug recovery programs,
00:53:00.720 which we can talk about
00:53:01.440 in a moment.
00:53:02.080 But that is all happening
00:53:03.400 in that one location.
00:53:04.780 And so we've been at this
00:53:05.600 for about three weeks.
00:53:06.960 We've seen, you know,
00:53:08.000 well over 200 individuals
00:53:09.340 come out of those
00:53:10.220 10 cities
00:53:11.540 and actively participate
00:53:13.080 in this process.
00:53:13.900 We refer to over 500
00:53:15.400 different services
00:53:16.920 and we've been pretty impressed
00:53:18.880 with the results of that.
00:53:19.800 Now that may seem
00:53:20.640 like a small number,
00:53:22.160 but given what we've
00:53:23.260 been working on,
00:53:24.000 this is kind of a,
00:53:24.800 you know,
00:53:25.020 a real micro area
00:53:25.900 that we're working on.
00:53:26.840 But we think it's been
00:53:27.560 so successful
00:53:28.340 that we're getting ready
00:53:29.640 to bring this right
00:53:30.600 into our actual
00:53:31.240 emergency homeless shelters,
00:53:32.460 which are thousands
00:53:33.060 of individuals,
00:53:34.260 and into other areas
00:53:35.300 where our social services
00:53:36.400 system interacts
00:53:37.420 with the same type
00:53:38.840 of clientele.
00:53:40.000 And again,
00:53:40.660 with the goal
00:53:41.300 of saying,
00:53:42.000 how do we help you
00:53:42.820 stop the circumstances
00:53:44.340 that you're in
00:53:45.020 and move forward.
00:53:46.280 I also want to stress
00:53:47.300 that we talked a lot
00:53:48.260 about drugs today,
00:53:49.020 but there's a lot
00:53:49.740 of mental health issues
00:53:51.040 that are taking place,
00:53:51.940 including schizophrenia
00:53:52.800 and some real challenges,
00:53:54.740 right?
00:53:55.020 These are very serious
00:53:55.960 mental health issues.
00:53:57.660 And by being able
00:53:58.340 to come in
00:53:58.860 and we have our
00:53:59.320 other health services
00:54:00.180 right around us,
00:54:01.120 again,
00:54:01.820 pharmacist support,
00:54:03.080 we can really get
00:54:04.480 some really needed things
00:54:05.680 around those individuals
00:54:06.560 to start to have
00:54:07.400 a good conversation
00:54:08.480 about what a more
00:54:09.740 successful and healthy
00:54:10.640 life might look like.
00:54:11.520 OK, so I got a couple
00:54:14.140 of questions there
00:54:15.100 and some procedural,
00:54:18.660 I want to discuss
00:54:19.680 some procedural issues too.
00:54:20.960 OK, so the first issue
00:54:22.100 is I'm trying to imagine
00:54:23.880 what it's like
00:54:25.240 for someone in a tent
00:54:26.400 encampment
00:54:27.240 to be, let's say,
00:54:30.540 displaced in that manner.
00:54:32.520 And you can imagine
00:54:33.440 two stories.
00:54:34.260 One is that people
00:54:35.260 are pretty damn pissed off
00:54:36.480 that the cops have showed up
00:54:37.620 and are now, you know,
00:54:39.020 tearing down their structures.
00:54:41.600 But a counter story
00:54:43.100 might be they're actually
00:54:44.720 kind of relieved
00:54:45.400 to be on a warm bus
00:54:46.480 going somewhere
00:54:47.080 that's actually warm
00:54:48.020 where they can have a shower
00:54:49.020 and get something to eat,
00:54:50.100 et cetera.
00:54:50.580 And so what's your sense
00:54:53.480 of how the tent city
00:54:54.660 inhabitants themselves
00:54:55.960 are responding
00:54:57.460 to this intervention
00:54:59.160 by government authorities
00:55:00.880 and police?
00:55:02.440 So the vast majority
00:55:04.640 of the individuals
00:55:05.260 that we've interacted with
00:55:06.440 that are actually
00:55:07.180 in the tent cities
00:55:08.400 that would then come
00:55:09.940 into our services
00:55:10.720 obviously.
00:55:11.740 So obviously if the police
00:55:12.920 have had to arrest
00:55:13.480 a gang member
00:55:14.280 or something like that,
00:55:15.500 they're probably not
00:55:16.180 that thrilled that we're here.
00:55:17.260 But the individuals
00:55:18.200 that we're trying
00:55:18.640 to get there to help,
00:55:19.900 they react very positively.
00:55:21.760 You know, the biggest
00:55:22.460 protesters that we've seen
00:55:24.580 or others who are trying
00:55:25.540 to interfere with this process
00:55:27.420 are not people
00:55:28.420 staying inside the tent cities.
00:55:29.660 They're often members
00:55:31.100 of the official opposition
00:55:32.420 of our province,
00:55:33.140 which is the NDP,
00:55:34.140 which is a socialist party
00:55:35.800 within our province,
00:55:36.760 or other activist groups
00:55:38.760 who certainly have never
00:55:39.980 spent one night
00:55:40.660 on the street
00:55:41.180 and are there trying
00:55:41.900 to bang on a drum
00:55:43.280 that has nothing to do
00:55:44.140 with what we're talking about
00:55:45.260 and they're just trying
00:55:46.020 to use these vulnerable people
00:55:47.300 to be able to,
00:55:48.320 you know,
00:55:48.740 accelerate their agenda
00:55:49.880 which is very disappointing.
00:55:51.760 We've seen,
00:55:52.080 I've seen some police
00:55:53.420 body camera footage
00:55:54.300 of these individuals
00:55:55.060 throwing snowballs
00:55:55.920 at the police
00:55:56.380 while they're trying
00:55:56.840 to go and interact
00:55:58.340 and deal with the situation
00:55:59.620 in the encampments.
00:56:00.280 But the vulnerable people
00:56:01.520 in general
00:56:02.700 have been pretty excited
00:56:04.360 once they realize
00:56:05.100 what opportunities they have.
00:56:06.320 And I've been there
00:56:07.040 to interact
00:56:07.660 at this navigation center
00:56:08.920 with them
00:56:09.480 and I've also heard
00:56:10.320 from my staff
00:56:11.080 and the most common reaction
00:56:13.020 is I had no idea
00:56:14.000 that these resources
00:56:14.920 were available
00:56:15.400 and they are quite interested
00:56:17.200 in it.
00:56:17.920 Now, obviously,
00:56:19.000 everybody's at a different stage
00:56:20.380 that may be taking place there
00:56:21.800 but certainly I think
00:56:23.320 you get to a nice warm bed,
00:56:25.060 you can have a warm shower,
00:56:26.240 you probably start
00:56:26.940 to ask questions
00:56:27.580 about whether or not
00:56:28.140 you want to continue
00:56:28.800 to sleep inside
00:56:29.640 that tent
00:56:30.540 in minus 50 degrees Celsius
00:56:31.960 or if this is a better option.
00:56:33.960 Okay, okay.
00:56:34.720 So now I want to ask you
00:56:36.100 about how you regulate
00:56:40.020 the interactions
00:56:41.520 between people
00:56:42.360 in these centers
00:56:43.560 because we already discussed
00:56:46.060 the fact that
00:56:46.980 in the tent cities,
00:56:49.460 the fact of the tent cities
00:56:50.960 is an invitation
00:56:51.940 to criminality and gangs.
00:56:53.480 And so then
00:56:53.920 the first question I have
00:56:55.100 is like how the hell
00:56:56.020 do you ensure
00:56:56.680 that that problem
00:56:58.700 isn't duplicated
00:56:59.980 inside your centers themselves?
00:57:03.780 So it's a very important question
00:57:05.340 and I will answer it
00:57:06.380 but I also want
00:57:07.160 to emphasize
00:57:08.300 that what we see
00:57:09.400 on that,
00:57:10.420 you know,
00:57:10.640 for lack of a better
00:57:11.380 word,
00:57:13.160 words,
00:57:13.900 on that left side
00:57:14.640 of the spectrum
00:57:15.140 when they argue
00:57:15.740 about us taking down
00:57:16.600 these tent cities
00:57:17.360 is they often say,
00:57:18.160 well, your shelters
00:57:18.640 are just as dangerous.
00:57:19.980 Now, again,
00:57:20.720 if you go back
00:57:21.420 through this entire conversation
00:57:22.600 we just had,
00:57:23.880 you realize how ludicrous
00:57:24.920 that is real quick.
00:57:25.820 That said,
00:57:27.000 of course,
00:57:27.480 we start putting
00:57:28.000 thousands of individuals
00:57:29.120 in the same type
00:57:29.980 of demographics,
00:57:30.860 a lot of the same
00:57:31.400 circumstances happening
00:57:32.540 inside our emergency
00:57:33.740 shelter system,
00:57:34.500 you're going to see
00:57:35.020 some of the same
00:57:35.540 elements show up.
00:57:36.620 And we for sure
00:57:37.440 have seen gangs
00:57:38.100 operating within
00:57:39.080 our emergency
00:57:40.240 shelter systems.
00:57:41.240 We are obviously
00:57:41.880 managing overdoses
00:57:43.040 and drug issues
00:57:43.800 in those type
00:57:44.320 of circumstances.
00:57:45.640 But we've invested
00:57:46.800 in security.
00:57:48.600 We are working closely
00:57:49.560 with our local
00:57:50.160 police services
00:57:50.840 who really support us
00:57:52.040 and our often
00:57:52.920 non-profit
00:57:53.600 emergency shelter
00:57:54.380 providers
00:57:54.940 to be able
00:57:56.180 to navigate
00:57:56.660 through those issues.
00:57:57.520 We've also upped security
00:57:58.540 to be able
00:57:58.920 to make sure
00:57:59.460 that people's
00:58:00.660 stuff is safe.
00:58:01.860 We've had to put
00:58:02.460 a lot of money
00:58:03.300 into dealing
00:58:03.700 with overdoses
00:58:04.440 and other medical
00:58:05.140 issues within
00:58:05.880 our emergency
00:58:07.160 facilities.
00:58:08.260 And while anywhere,
00:58:09.240 as you know,
00:58:09.680 Jordan,
00:58:10.060 in society
00:58:10.720 where we start
00:58:11.260 to gather
00:58:11.600 that many people
00:58:12.300 together,
00:58:12.780 there's going
00:58:13.200 to be elements
00:58:14.500 of trouble.
00:58:15.440 It is certainly
00:58:16.060 significantly less
00:58:17.060 than what we're
00:58:17.420 seeing inside
00:58:17.980 tent cities.
00:58:18.820 And we're definitely
00:58:19.940 using tools
00:58:21.460 to be able
00:58:21.960 to mitigate
00:58:22.420 those circumstances.
00:58:23.840 Okay, okay.
00:58:24.380 So now I'm going
00:58:25.400 to ask you
00:58:25.960 some questions
00:58:26.520 more on the
00:58:27.080 psychological
00:58:27.560 and treatment
00:58:28.220 front.
00:58:29.180 As I said,
00:58:29.840 I spent a lot
00:58:30.480 of time
00:58:30.860 looking into
00:58:31.640 the viability
00:58:33.000 of treatment
00:58:34.340 processes
00:58:35.060 that are
00:58:36.780 widely
00:58:37.740 distributable
00:58:38.580 and effective
00:58:39.500 on the
00:58:40.960 psychological
00:58:41.460 front
00:58:42.000 with regard
00:58:43.140 to addiction
00:58:43.620 counseling
00:58:44.120 and the
00:58:44.740 treatment
00:58:44.980 of various
00:58:45.700 forms of
00:58:46.120 mental disorder.
00:58:46.860 And they're
00:58:47.040 few and far
00:58:47.600 between
00:58:48.080 effective
00:58:48.640 treatments.
00:58:49.260 So I want
00:58:49.880 to ask you
00:58:50.320 a couple
00:58:50.600 of questions.
00:58:51.100 The first
00:58:51.460 is have
00:58:53.480 you guys
00:58:53.980 given some
00:58:54.600 consideration
00:58:55.180 to the
00:58:56.000 maximum
00:58:56.480 size
00:58:57.280 of your
00:58:57.980 facilities?
00:58:59.100 Because my
00:58:59.780 suspicions
00:59:00.480 are that
00:59:01.260 the smaller
00:59:02.300 you keep
00:59:03.080 those centralized
00:59:03.860 centers,
00:59:04.960 the less
00:59:05.620 trouble you're
00:59:06.320 going to have
00:59:07.000 with their
00:59:07.560 spiraling into
00:59:08.620 criminal activity
00:59:10.120 and gangs,
00:59:10.880 and the more
00:59:11.700 welcoming you'll
00:59:13.220 be able to
00:59:13.560 make them
00:59:14.000 for people
00:59:14.520 who are
00:59:15.060 being taken
00:59:15.980 off the
00:59:16.380 streets.
00:59:16.620 So that's
00:59:18.080 the first
00:59:18.380 question.
00:59:19.060 What have
00:59:20.180 you seen
00:59:20.780 and are
00:59:21.680 you tracking
00:59:22.520 the data
00:59:23.840 pertaining to
00:59:24.640 the size
00:59:25.460 of the
00:59:25.860 initial
00:59:26.180 treatment
00:59:26.640 facilities?
00:59:28.180 So we
00:59:28.940 are definitely
00:59:29.640 tracking data
00:59:31.000 and one
00:59:32.220 of the things
00:59:32.460 that we're
00:59:32.680 trying to
00:59:33.080 do on
00:59:33.500 my end
00:59:34.120 of policy
00:59:35.120 and the
00:59:35.800 process
00:59:36.100 that my
00:59:36.480 ministry
00:59:36.760 runs
00:59:37.180 is to
00:59:38.320 try to
00:59:38.820 bring in
00:59:39.260 other
00:59:39.580 types of
00:59:40.140 the ways
00:59:40.420 that we
00:59:40.640 do emergency
00:59:41.260 shelter
00:59:41.740 for the
00:59:42.600 homeless
00:59:42.820 population.
00:59:43.580 So you
00:59:44.180 have your
00:59:44.520 much more
00:59:44.920 traditional
00:59:45.280 shelters
00:59:45.700 that many
00:59:46.100 people would
00:59:46.540 just think
00:59:46.860 about
00:59:47.040 that they'd
00:59:47.440 see on
00:59:47.820 TV,
00:59:48.680 often run
00:59:49.180 by a
00:59:49.460 faith-based
00:59:49.820 organization.
00:59:50.660 I want to
00:59:50.960 say thank
00:59:51.680 God for
00:59:52.080 our faith-based
00:59:52.600 organizations
00:59:53.300 because they
00:59:54.140 really do
00:59:54.540 good work
00:59:54.960 with us.
00:59:55.480 But we
00:59:55.920 have recognized
00:59:56.660 a need
00:59:57.220 for smaller
00:59:57.800 shelters,
00:59:58.440 shelters that
00:59:58.920 are focused
00:59:59.300 on women
00:59:59.720 only,
01:00:00.140 for example,
01:00:01.160 in our
01:00:01.480 society,
01:00:02.440 in our
01:00:02.640 province,
01:00:03.100 shelters
01:00:03.300 that are
01:00:03.660 Indigenous
01:00:04.040 focused,
01:00:04.720 with Indigenous
01:00:05.240 leadership
01:00:05.780 right on
01:00:06.240 site to
01:00:06.620 be able
01:00:06.900 to work
01:00:08.380 on that.
01:00:08.760 We've
01:00:08.920 opened up
01:00:09.320 Indigenous
01:00:09.600 only shelters,
01:00:10.440 women only
01:00:10.900 shelters inside
01:00:11.540 our province
01:00:12.040 supported by
01:00:12.580 the government
01:00:13.000 and we're
01:00:13.320 seeing success
01:00:14.120 by getting
01:00:14.940 that smaller
01:00:15.540 and being
01:00:15.980 able to
01:00:16.260 work with
01:00:16.640 different
01:00:16.920 demographics
01:00:17.480 more focused.
01:00:18.760 At the end
01:00:19.220 of the day,
01:00:19.680 what we have
01:00:20.080 in our
01:00:20.300 province and
01:00:20.820 what Premier
01:00:21.520 Smith has
01:00:22.060 done in
01:00:22.440 our province
01:00:22.940 is actually
01:00:23.520 bring in a
01:00:24.280 mental health
01:00:24.900 and addictions
01:00:25.480 cabinet minister,
01:00:26.860 my colleague
01:00:27.380 Dan Williams,
01:00:28.520 who is part
01:00:29.380 of the health
01:00:29.840 system who is
01:00:30.460 fully focused
01:00:31.300 on mental
01:00:31.780 health and
01:00:32.160 addictions.
01:00:33.240 And so he's
01:00:33.820 the best one
01:00:34.220 to talk to
01:00:34.640 about specifically
01:00:35.600 how they
01:00:36.160 handle long-term
01:00:36.940 drug treatment.
01:00:38.040 But my job
01:00:38.840 now is to
01:00:39.560 rejig the
01:00:40.300 entire social
01:00:41.020 services system
01:00:41.880 in our
01:00:42.180 province to
01:00:43.220 end up
01:00:43.540 connecting
01:00:44.020 to that.
01:00:44.840 And that's
01:00:45.220 where there's
01:00:45.880 a real
01:00:46.140 difference in
01:00:46.880 viewpoints between
01:00:47.620 us and the
01:00:48.100 left, right?
01:00:48.640 I mean,
01:00:48.860 they want us
01:00:49.500 to build
01:00:49.900 shelter systems
01:00:50.980 where everybody
01:00:51.400 can keep
01:00:51.820 doing drugs
01:00:52.400 and just
01:00:52.700 accept that
01:00:53.300 behavior and
01:00:54.180 ignore the
01:00:55.960 negative
01:00:56.260 consequences of
01:00:57.240 that.
01:00:57.880 We are
01:00:58.520 building
01:00:58.840 shelter systems
01:00:59.640 and processes
01:01:00.620 that connect
01:01:01.380 into the work
01:01:02.060 that Dan
01:01:02.460 Williams and
01:01:03.100 his team are
01:01:03.620 trying to do.
01:01:04.380 And it is a
01:01:05.000 whole different
01:01:05.480 way of thinking.
01:01:06.100 I don't know
01:01:06.420 anywhere else
01:01:07.040 in the province
01:01:07.680 where you've
01:01:08.440 got an entire
01:01:09.060 social services
01:01:09.920 system working
01:01:10.800 on focus on
01:01:11.900 actual recovery
01:01:13.080 care long-term
01:01:14.720 for individuals,
01:01:15.560 right?
01:01:15.740 So we're not in
01:01:16.780 the business of
01:01:17.220 trying to warehouse
01:01:17.680 people.
01:01:18.340 Our job is to
01:01:19.260 find individuals,
01:01:20.160 support them with
01:01:20.760 their immediate
01:01:21.120 medical needs,
01:01:21.860 and then try to
01:01:22.500 connect them to
01:01:23.120 long-term
01:01:23.580 opportunities to
01:01:25.060 get them better.
01:01:26.080 Okay, so that
01:01:27.340 brings me to the
01:01:28.100 second clinical
01:01:29.000 issue I wanted to
01:01:29.940 bring up.
01:01:30.480 So you can
01:01:32.120 treat people's
01:01:33.080 present distress,
01:01:35.580 but much of
01:01:36.560 people's present
01:01:37.480 distress is rooted
01:01:38.820 in a kind of
01:01:39.600 nihilistic and
01:01:40.640 anxiety-ridden
01:01:41.660 hopelessness.
01:01:43.420 And they say
01:01:44.420 it's been said
01:01:45.200 forever that the
01:01:46.040 people perish
01:01:46.740 without a vision.
01:01:48.440 And one of the
01:01:49.400 things you do see
01:01:50.420 with people who
01:01:51.440 adopt a very
01:01:52.300 short-term
01:01:53.120 strategy towards
01:01:54.320 life, which can
01:01:55.200 have a criminal
01:01:55.760 element or an
01:01:56.940 addictive element,
01:01:58.980 is that they
01:01:59.720 don't have
01:02:00.580 anything resembling
01:02:01.900 a vision for
01:02:02.520 their life or
01:02:03.120 a plan.
01:02:04.940 And so we
01:02:05.540 experimented, my
01:02:06.720 colleagues and I
01:02:07.780 experimented with
01:02:08.780 the provision of
01:02:09.800 planning software.
01:02:11.900 And so we have a
01:02:12.740 program online
01:02:13.740 called self-authoring,
01:02:16.280 which is very
01:02:17.400 inexpensive, requires
01:02:18.680 no supervision
01:02:21.200 whatsoever to
01:02:22.140 administer, that's
01:02:23.800 completely private,
01:02:25.480 and that's actually
01:02:27.300 accessible to
01:02:28.100 everyone to some
01:02:29.100 degree, assuming a
01:02:30.640 basic level of both
01:02:32.180 literacy and ability
01:02:33.600 to use a computer,
01:02:35.340 but virtually everyone
01:02:36.600 can use a phone
01:02:37.540 now, so, you
01:02:38.640 know, that's less
01:02:39.360 and less of a
01:02:39.920 problem.
01:02:40.760 Okay, so it's
01:02:41.840 called self-authoring
01:02:43.080 this program.
01:02:43.980 Okay, so now the
01:02:45.020 first thing it does,
01:02:46.220 it's got three
01:02:46.720 stages, and you
01:02:47.560 can do just one
01:02:48.540 or three, let's
01:02:50.820 say, one or two
01:02:51.540 or all three.
01:02:52.480 The first stage has
01:02:53.760 people write out
01:02:55.300 what's essentially
01:02:56.200 an autobiography,
01:02:57.400 and it's a good
01:02:58.280 treatment for trauma.
01:03:01.140 So it asks people to
01:03:02.480 go through their
01:03:03.040 life, to write their
01:03:03.940 life story,
01:03:04.600 essentially, but it
01:03:05.300 provides them with a
01:03:06.060 lot of different
01:03:06.620 prompts.
01:03:08.040 Break your life
01:03:08.820 into six epochs,
01:03:10.520 describe the major
01:03:12.280 positive and negative
01:03:13.420 events, then it
01:03:14.260 walks you through an
01:03:15.020 analysis of those
01:03:15.980 events, and so what
01:03:17.180 that tries to do is
01:03:18.180 to situate people in
01:03:21.220 relationship to their
01:03:22.140 past and bring them
01:03:23.360 up to the present.
01:03:25.060 Okay, so this is
01:03:25.820 where I came from,
01:03:26.820 these are the events
01:03:27.780 that shaped me, and
01:03:29.440 this is where I am
01:03:30.600 now.
01:03:31.000 Okay, so that's the
01:03:31.800 past authoring.
01:03:32.660 Now, the present
01:03:33.720 authoring helps people
01:03:35.280 assess their faults
01:03:36.760 and their virtues,
01:03:38.860 and so it presents
01:03:39.880 them with a variety
01:03:40.680 of descriptive
01:03:41.280 statements that they
01:03:42.360 can check off, and
01:03:43.720 then it aggregates the
01:03:44.820 ones that they're
01:03:45.600 most convinced about,
01:03:47.080 and it says, well, it
01:03:48.080 helps them walk
01:03:48.760 through an analysis,
01:03:49.720 which is, what stupid
01:03:51.980 things are you doing
01:03:52.980 that hurt you, as far
01:03:54.580 as you're concerned,
01:03:55.480 and what are your
01:03:56.600 strengths that you
01:03:57.400 could capitalize on if
01:03:58.980 you decided to move
01:04:00.040 into the future?
01:04:01.220 Okay, so that's the
01:04:02.060 second stage.
01:04:02.740 The third stage, this
01:04:04.800 might be most relevant
01:04:05.860 to your endeavor, is
01:04:07.920 the future authoring
01:04:08.920 program.
01:04:09.400 So here's the
01:04:10.000 program.
01:04:12.640 So people who are
01:04:14.460 writing the essay,
01:04:17.680 let's say, are
01:04:18.860 enjoined to imagine
01:04:20.980 that they were
01:04:21.500 treating themselves
01:04:22.260 like they were
01:04:23.480 someone they wanted
01:04:24.240 to help.
01:04:26.060 Okay, now project
01:04:27.320 yourself five years
01:04:28.460 in the future.
01:04:29.100 Okay, so here's the
01:04:30.960 deal.
01:04:32.140 Within the bounds of
01:04:33.300 reason, you can have
01:04:35.040 what you want and
01:04:36.640 need, but you have to
01:04:38.520 specify what it is.
01:04:39.820 You have to aim at it.
01:04:40.800 Now, we're always
01:04:41.800 moving towards an end,
01:04:43.920 and so if you don't
01:04:45.320 have an aim, you don't
01:04:47.040 have any hope, because
01:04:48.600 hope is experienced in
01:04:49.660 relationship to an aim,
01:04:50.740 and you're anxious
01:04:51.520 because there are too
01:04:52.320 many places to go.
01:04:53.740 So you bind yourself
01:04:54.840 with the vision, and
01:04:55.620 you give yourself hope.
01:04:57.060 All right, so five
01:04:58.460 years down the road,
01:04:59.300 what would your life
01:04:59.980 look like?
01:05:00.480 If you were educating
01:05:01.800 yourself properly, if
01:05:03.720 you were in a career
01:05:05.480 that was the one you
01:05:06.660 wanted, or at least a
01:05:07.700 job that was the one
01:05:08.740 you wanted, if your
01:05:09.820 family was put together
01:05:10.960 in some reasonable
01:05:11.820 manner, if you had the
01:05:13.000 friends that you
01:05:13.660 needed, if you were
01:05:14.720 regulating your drug
01:05:15.680 and alcohol use, which
01:05:17.120 needs a plan and not
01:05:19.220 merely cessation of
01:05:20.660 addiction, if you were
01:05:21.920 contributing to your
01:05:22.800 community, if you were
01:05:23.680 taking care of
01:05:24.380 yourself, if you were
01:05:25.760 occupying yourself
01:05:27.100 properly with your
01:05:28.240 time outside of work,
01:05:29.860 if you could have what
01:05:30.620 you wanted, what would
01:05:31.400 it look like?
01:05:31.980 Okay, the reason I'm
01:05:32.820 telling you this, there's
01:05:33.620 two reasons.
01:05:34.340 Number one is, it's
01:05:35.400 dirt cheap, it's easily
01:05:37.100 accessible, and we
01:05:38.360 have produced solid
01:05:39.860 empirical data, and
01:05:41.320 this has been replicated
01:05:42.980 in other ways in other
01:05:44.380 labs using writing
01:05:45.620 exercises.
01:05:47.600 The worst, so if you
01:05:49.800 take young men who
01:05:51.100 have a bad academic
01:05:52.460 history, and they do
01:05:54.640 this future authoring
01:05:55.940 exercise for 90
01:05:57.240 minutes when they're
01:05:58.300 orienting themselves at
01:06:00.080 college, they are
01:06:01.840 half as likely to
01:06:03.280 drop out.
01:06:04.500 Half.
01:06:05.540 Right.
01:06:06.120 It produces an
01:06:07.220 increment of 35% in
01:06:09.640 grade point average.
01:06:11.800 Right.
01:06:12.580 That's crazy.
01:06:12.740 Three separate
01:06:13.420 studies, one at
01:06:14.340 Mohawk College in
01:06:15.760 Ontario, so basically
01:06:16.940 a trade school, one
01:06:18.420 at McGill University,
01:06:20.120 and four studies.
01:06:21.700 Two studies that were
01:06:22.620 aggregated at a business
01:06:23.980 school in the
01:06:25.780 Netherlands, and the
01:06:27.080 most potent effects
01:06:28.720 were for the worst
01:06:29.760 performing minority
01:06:31.300 young men.
01:06:33.280 Right.
01:06:33.680 So one of the things
01:06:34.540 that might be worth
01:06:36.540 considering is, see,
01:06:39.020 people who are lost
01:06:40.580 need a plan.
01:06:42.020 They need to figure out
01:06:43.140 who they are, and they
01:06:43.920 need a plan.
01:06:44.500 Now, that's an
01:06:45.040 expensive proposition,
01:06:46.780 but this process
01:06:48.100 circumvents the expense,
01:06:49.220 expense.
01:06:50.080 And then there's
01:06:50.680 another upside, which
01:06:52.060 is, apart from it not
01:06:53.680 costing anything, it
01:06:55.380 has no negative
01:06:56.580 consequences.
01:06:57.900 Right.
01:06:58.100 So even if it fails, it
01:06:59.260 isn't going to hurt
01:06:59.840 people.
01:07:00.380 Right.
01:07:00.980 So I'm curious.
01:07:03.040 So, so far, you see,
01:07:04.660 we've kind of approached
01:07:05.580 the addiction and the
01:07:07.140 homeless problem as
01:07:08.540 something akin to an
01:07:10.380 addiction, you know,
01:07:11.760 which is, let's say,
01:07:13.420 it's a consequence of
01:07:14.940 craving in the present.
01:07:16.360 But that's not all an
01:07:17.460 addiction is.
01:07:18.160 An addiction is
01:07:18.940 something that
01:07:19.500 destroys the future.
01:07:22.240 And so people often,
01:07:24.180 look, the addiction
01:07:25.200 literature is crystal
01:07:26.220 clear.
01:07:27.560 People will not stop
01:07:29.080 taking their drug of
01:07:30.440 delight until they have
01:07:31.840 something better to do.
01:07:34.180 So young men, for
01:07:35.120 example, are very much
01:07:36.140 likely to abuse alcohol
01:07:38.020 with some regularity.
01:07:39.920 Most of them quit around
01:07:40.960 24, 25, something like
01:07:42.760 that, when they take on
01:07:44.240 like a full-time job and
01:07:45.440 adopt some adult
01:07:47.060 responsibilities.
01:07:48.160 But until then, they
01:07:49.100 think, well, you know,
01:07:49.880 it's entertaining to
01:07:51.020 drink my, drink myself
01:07:53.180 into the ground three
01:07:53.980 nights a week.
01:07:54.600 And, and many of them
01:07:56.360 do.
01:07:56.980 But as soon as there's
01:07:58.120 something better to do,
01:08:00.160 they quit.
01:08:00.940 Now, if you don't have
01:08:01.620 anything, we even saw
01:08:02.880 this with rats.
01:08:03.860 So, for example, you
01:08:05.500 cannot get rats that are
01:08:06.900 integrated into a social
01:08:08.260 environment addicted to
01:08:09.320 cocaine.
01:08:10.580 Yeah, I know this study
01:08:11.380 well.
01:08:11.620 Yeah, right.
01:08:12.580 If you isolate them and
01:08:13.500 put them in a, in a, in a,
01:08:15.240 alone in a box, they'll
01:08:17.040 take cocaine in preference
01:08:18.480 to everything else.
01:08:19.440 Okay.
01:08:19.720 So I'm wondering, have you
01:08:21.740 guys integrated anything
01:08:23.420 like a, like a, what would
01:08:26.440 you say?
01:08:27.080 A process that helps people
01:08:29.220 generate a concrete plan into
01:08:32.220 the treatments that you're
01:08:33.300 offering.
01:08:33.680 Did you know that the two
01:08:35.020 leading causes of sensitive
01:08:36.280 teeth are irritated gums and
01:08:38.020 weak enamel?
01:08:38.940 Switch to Sensodyne
01:08:40.000 sensitivity gum and enamel.
01:08:41.880 With twice daily brushing,
01:08:43.120 you can relieve sensitivity,
01:08:44.500 help restore gum health,
01:08:45.660 and re-harden enamel.
01:08:46.960 Three issues, one answer.
01:08:49.900 So how, how it's taking
01:08:52.200 place in Alberta is because
01:08:53.640 we have our mental health
01:08:54.700 and addiction ministry.
01:08:56.380 Uh, they're bringing
01:08:57.300 forward, I'm going to talk
01:08:58.160 a little bit about what
01:08:58.700 they're doing, recovery
01:08:59.600 programs.
01:09:00.660 And so, and you're right.
01:09:01.920 I mean, I used to do this
01:09:02.840 for a living before.
01:09:03.500 I was in politics, so I
01:09:04.520 follow a lot what you're
01:09:05.540 saying here, Jordan, and
01:09:06.420 about, you know, having to
01:09:07.120 get that community together.
01:09:08.900 Obviously you've got to deal
01:09:09.560 with the immediate issues
01:09:10.700 that somebody's dealing
01:09:11.780 with, maybe immediate
01:09:12.580 trauma.
01:09:13.260 There could be some pretty
01:09:14.140 significant mental health
01:09:15.140 issues.
01:09:15.400 You start going down the
01:09:16.140 road of schizophrenia, as
01:09:17.080 you know, we're going down
01:09:18.220 a different type of path.
01:09:19.720 But in general, you've got
01:09:20.660 to get community around
01:09:21.420 people, you've got to deal
01:09:22.100 with their immediate issues,
01:09:23.500 show them a path forward,
01:09:24.760 your right goal setting, and
01:09:26.980 off you go.
01:09:27.640 I would say another one that
01:09:28.480 I've learned over time was
01:09:29.440 also showing people there's
01:09:30.360 other ways to be able to
01:09:31.100 have fun appropriately.
01:09:32.000 That's how you know, right?
01:09:33.620 Yes, definitely, definitely.
01:09:34.000 There's other ways to do, to
01:09:36.060 be able to go forward like
01:09:36.980 that.
01:09:37.240 And so when you get into
01:09:38.100 Minister Williams' department
01:09:39.120 after you leave our services
01:09:40.220 and if you're focused on
01:09:41.140 recovery, they do something
01:09:42.640 called recovery capital.
01:09:43.880 It's one of the first
01:09:44.420 things they do.
01:09:44.940 They start a process with
01:09:45.980 an individual to understand
01:09:47.160 what their recovery capital
01:09:48.720 is.
01:09:49.020 And so that talks about the
01:09:49.900 access they have, where
01:09:51.180 they're at, what they have
01:09:52.040 access to.
01:09:52.720 And obviously the drug side
01:09:54.820 of things that I'm dealing
01:09:56.000 with right there in the
01:09:57.160 homeless population would be
01:09:58.280 some of the toughest
01:09:58.980 addiction issues that
01:10:00.300 Minister Williams' department
01:10:01.320 will have to deal with.
01:10:02.240 I mean, this is not a
01:10:03.640 functioning alcoholic.
01:10:04.720 This is your individuals
01:10:05.360 who are living in a tent,
01:10:06.480 right?
01:10:07.040 And they're in very
01:10:07.920 different circumstances.
01:10:09.020 They'll have lower
01:10:09.740 recovery capital, but that
01:10:11.480 means there's going to be
01:10:12.200 more that needs to be done
01:10:13.360 to get them to recovery.
01:10:14.380 But certainly they put
01:10:15.540 together that process.
01:10:16.580 What's different though in
01:10:17.600 Alberta is we're committed
01:10:20.080 to that process.
01:10:21.400 And so if you see other
01:10:22.240 provinces or other
01:10:23.720 jurisdictions in the world,
01:10:24.780 they want to go to a
01:10:25.540 different process.
01:10:26.220 They want to go to the,
01:10:27.560 put them in an apartment
01:10:28.460 paid for by a taxpayer,
01:10:29.860 let them do drugs
01:10:30.500 till they pass away.
01:10:31.360 That's essentially what
01:10:32.060 it comes down to.
01:10:33.340 Go in there and say,
01:10:34.440 you know what, you've got
01:10:35.240 this disease called
01:10:36.000 addiction.
01:10:36.760 There's basically nothing
01:10:37.640 that can be done.
01:10:38.340 We just want to support
01:10:39.080 you and make you
01:10:39.520 comfortable.
01:10:40.340 Alberta, we don't
01:10:41.020 believe that.
01:10:41.680 We believe that
01:10:42.440 individuals can recover.
01:10:43.560 We believe the science
01:10:44.280 is there.
01:10:44.620 It's hard work, you're
01:10:45.400 correct.
01:10:46.100 But our job now in our
01:10:47.520 social services sector
01:10:48.480 under the leadership of
01:10:49.280 Premier Smith is to build
01:10:50.740 a system that bridges
01:10:51.980 into these recovery
01:10:52.880 programs that are being
01:10:53.740 built by our colleagues
01:10:54.660 in mental health and
01:10:55.240 addiction.
01:10:55.920 And then the next part
01:10:57.120 is really important,
01:10:58.500 that we have a system
01:10:59.240 on the other end of
01:11:00.200 those recovery programs.
01:11:01.380 Because you're correct,
01:11:02.240 they go into something
01:11:03.020 like an addiction
01:11:03.620 treatment, they get the
01:11:04.520 tools to deal with
01:11:05.260 their addiction, set
01:11:06.500 long-term goals, get
01:11:07.740 through that process,
01:11:08.480 and then you come out.
01:11:09.580 And what happens too
01:11:10.540 often is you come out
01:11:11.320 and you just end up
01:11:12.180 relapsing because
01:11:12.940 there's nothing that's
01:11:13.580 built around it.
01:11:14.680 Virtually certain.
01:11:15.800 Yeah.
01:11:16.280 Yeah.
01:11:16.520 Yeah.
01:11:16.820 And so we're really
01:11:17.760 focused on both ends of
01:11:18.920 it.
01:11:19.100 We want to build a social
01:11:19.860 services system that
01:11:21.220 brings people into
01:11:21.980 active recovery, support
01:11:23.760 obviously our colleagues
01:11:24.660 who are doing the
01:11:25.200 recovery, and then be
01:11:26.380 there on the other end
01:11:27.240 as you come out of
01:11:27.840 recovery.
01:11:28.460 Post-housing, post-support,
01:11:30.580 and that's going to look
01:11:31.300 very different for
01:11:31.980 different people.
01:11:32.640 I mean, particularly if
01:11:33.200 you're dealing with
01:11:33.520 different trauma, different
01:11:34.440 circumstances.
01:11:35.440 But in our province, we
01:11:36.540 don't want to accept that
01:11:37.780 you're going to be in
01:11:38.460 palliative care for drug
01:11:39.320 addicts.
01:11:39.800 We want to get you to
01:11:40.760 where you can get the
01:11:41.600 help.
01:11:42.080 We want to get you the
01:11:43.040 help, and then we want
01:11:44.020 to support you as you go
01:11:44.940 on with the rest of your
01:11:45.980 life.
01:11:46.200 And when we've done
01:11:47.260 that, we're seeing people
01:11:48.400 have very successful
01:11:49.720 lives.
01:11:50.940 Jordan, you can beat
01:11:52.280 addiction.
01:11:53.800 You know, and there's some
01:11:54.380 more complications now with
01:11:55.700 the different drugs we're
01:11:56.440 seeing and what it's doing to
01:11:57.320 brain chemistry, and, you
01:11:58.740 know, it makes some of this
01:12:00.000 more challenging.
01:12:01.040 But the reality is we do not
01:12:03.000 accept in Alberta that if
01:12:04.560 you're addicted to a drug,
01:12:05.740 that this is a fatal
01:12:06.440 disease.
01:12:07.100 And our job is we are
01:12:08.560 rejigging our social
01:12:09.360 services system to make
01:12:10.500 sure that we are all
01:12:11.900 focused on that when it
01:12:13.120 comes to drug addiction.
01:12:13.920 Okay, so I'm going to
01:12:16.780 double down on this again
01:12:18.700 because it's such a
01:12:22.000 crucial problem, and it's
01:12:23.380 so difficult to solve.
01:12:24.660 So I knew this woman
01:12:25.880 named Joan McCord, Dr.
01:12:27.780 Joan McCord, and she was
01:12:28.640 one of the first female
01:12:30.300 PhD criminologists.
01:12:32.260 And I know her when she
01:12:33.360 was quite an elderly
01:12:34.120 woman, and she had taught
01:12:35.740 at Temple University for
01:12:36.860 years, and she was a
01:12:37.700 pioneer in the field.
01:12:38.600 And she did this study in
01:12:39.820 a place called Somersville
01:12:41.720 in Massachusetts.
01:12:43.080 And back in the late 30s,
01:12:46.420 and it was the first
01:12:47.500 large-scale social
01:12:49.840 intervention program to
01:12:52.420 address, what would you
01:12:54.220 say, to ameliorate the
01:12:55.580 circumstances of children
01:12:56.920 in neighborhoods where
01:12:57.880 antisocial personality and
01:13:00.380 criminality and addiction
01:13:01.900 were a likely consequence
01:13:04.040 of the disarray in that
01:13:07.300 environment.
01:13:07.700 Okay, so they set up, on
01:13:11.100 paper, the intervention
01:13:13.280 looked wonderful.
01:13:15.060 There were literacy
01:13:16.780 programs for the children.
01:13:18.080 There were parenting
01:13:18.660 programs for the parents.
01:13:20.000 There were social skills
01:13:21.620 programs for the children.
01:13:23.420 They tried to offer them
01:13:25.060 the resources they needed
01:13:26.260 to be successful in a way
01:13:28.100 that you would expect
01:13:29.120 intelligent people to offer
01:13:30.400 those resources.
01:13:31.500 And they went above and
01:13:32.680 beyond the call of duty,
01:13:34.920 you might say.
01:13:35.580 They took all the kids
01:13:36.500 out of Somerville and
01:13:38.440 took them to summer
01:13:40.240 camps out of the city for
01:13:41.500 two weeks a year, you
01:13:42.900 know, to give them some
01:13:43.840 immersion in nature and a
01:13:45.840 chance to get away.
01:13:46.820 And everyone loved the
01:13:48.240 program.
01:13:49.100 The kids loved it.
01:13:50.660 The parents loved it.
01:13:51.640 The teachers who were
01:13:52.500 involved loved it.
01:13:53.260 The social services
01:13:55.340 types and the
01:13:56.440 psychologists, et cetera,
01:13:57.540 who were involved, they
01:13:58.440 thought this was a bang
01:13:59.400 up.
01:14:00.400 But they did one fatal
01:14:03.220 thing, which is they
01:14:04.080 actually built evaluation
01:14:05.200 into the program.
01:14:07.380 And so they assigned the
01:14:08.760 people randomly to
01:14:10.000 treatment and non-treatment
01:14:11.260 group.
01:14:12.100 And then after the program
01:14:13.600 had run for a couple of
01:14:14.660 years, they revealed the
01:14:16.200 results of the study to
01:14:17.340 themselves.
01:14:18.720 And the kids in the
01:14:20.180 treatment group did worse
01:14:21.380 on almost every measure.
01:14:24.000 Right.
01:14:24.500 And so they were absolutely
01:14:25.860 shocked.
01:14:26.980 And it turned out, it took
01:14:28.580 a couple of years to figure
01:14:29.620 out exactly what had
01:14:30.580 happened.
01:14:31.000 But what had happened was
01:14:32.040 that taking all the kids
01:14:34.900 who were most prone to
01:14:35.960 criminality and putting
01:14:36.980 them together for two
01:14:37.960 weeks in a camp was a
01:14:40.360 school for criminality.
01:14:42.680 Right.
01:14:43.220 And that effect was so
01:14:44.480 detrimental that it
01:14:45.500 obliterated, not only
01:14:47.020 obliterated the effects of
01:14:48.320 all the interventions, but
01:14:49.320 reduced them.
01:14:50.680 And so, or reversed them.
01:14:52.720 So Joan McCord, Dr.
01:14:54.380 McCord, spent a lot of the
01:14:55.620 rest of her life traveling
01:14:56.820 around talking to
01:14:57.980 politicians, for example,
01:14:59.620 in positions like yours
01:15:00.760 saying, look, whenever you
01:15:03.420 introduce any intervention
01:15:05.280 whatsoever, make sure you
01:15:07.380 budget for evaluation,
01:15:09.540 because just because your
01:15:11.800 intervention makes sense
01:15:13.680 doesn't mean it's going to
01:15:15.140 work.
01:15:15.840 Now, you alluded to the fact
01:15:17.800 earlier that you, and this
01:15:19.840 is part of what makes me so
01:15:21.280 skeptical.
01:15:21.640 I worked with a group of
01:15:22.860 criminologists centered in
01:15:24.400 Montreal for seven years,
01:15:27.000 looking at the genesis of
01:15:29.080 antisocial behavior, the
01:15:30.320 treatment of addiction, all
01:15:31.320 these sorts of things with
01:15:32.240 really well-qualified people.
01:15:34.820 And one of the things I
01:15:35.660 really learned was, don't be
01:15:38.400 so sure your stupid
01:15:39.720 intervention is going to do
01:15:41.400 what you hope it does and
01:15:43.280 nothing else.
01:15:44.480 Typical conservative
01:15:45.520 attitude in some ways, right?
01:15:47.040 Law of unintended
01:15:48.000 consequence.
01:15:48.640 So I'm wondering what
01:15:51.000 systems of evaluation you
01:15:53.060 guys have built in, really
01:15:57.160 on the scientific side.
01:15:58.680 Like, are you in a position
01:16:00.560 where you can track the
01:16:02.100 results of what it is that
01:16:03.580 you're doing?
01:16:04.780 And like, is there a team
01:16:06.900 that's involved in helping
01:16:07.960 you do that?
01:16:08.660 And if so, you know, what
01:16:10.720 have you done?
01:16:11.300 And what are the, what are
01:16:13.600 the results of your
01:16:14.580 evaluation so far?
01:16:16.740 How do you, and how do
01:16:17.700 you know they're credible
01:16:18.520 even?
01:16:19.740 No, it's a great question.
01:16:21.000 It's the right question too.
01:16:22.120 And I, you know, speaking
01:16:23.060 as a longtime cabinet
01:16:24.080 minister, you're right.
01:16:24.760 I mean, often we're
01:16:25.740 investing in programs with
01:16:26.960 the best of intentions, but
01:16:29.000 you could end up making
01:16:29.980 things worse, particularly
01:16:31.160 in files like we're
01:16:32.180 talking about.
01:16:33.000 You know, I, if you're
01:16:34.660 really interested in this, I
01:16:35.460 hope eventually you get an
01:16:36.220 opportunity to sit down with
01:16:37.060 Minister Williams, who's
01:16:37.860 leading it specifically on
01:16:39.540 the work we're doing on
01:16:40.180 addictions.
01:16:40.560 But I will tell you on
01:16:41.360 the other side of the
01:16:42.260 file, the reality is we
01:16:44.420 have not done a good job
01:16:45.640 as a province on the
01:16:46.680 statistics side.
01:16:47.340 This to me is what's
01:16:48.060 actually most alarming.
01:16:49.660 And so we are right now
01:16:50.740 diligently putting in
01:16:52.300 statistical systems all
01:16:53.800 across our housing and
01:16:55.540 homeless shelter spectrum
01:16:56.520 so we can understand the
01:16:57.460 numbers.
01:16:57.760 And we're starting this
01:16:58.400 with obviously this tent
01:17:00.000 city process because we've
01:17:01.720 been able to build the new
01:17:02.500 navigation centers where
01:17:03.860 we got good ability to
01:17:05.720 be able to do statistics
01:17:06.540 on site and understand
01:17:07.420 what's going on.
01:17:08.220 And we are going to
01:17:08.800 evaluate that program based
01:17:10.080 on its results.
01:17:10.880 But one step further we've
01:17:12.480 done underneath
01:17:13.140 Premier Smith is we are
01:17:14.220 putting in evaluation
01:17:15.640 programs across our entire
01:17:17.140 social services system on
01:17:18.580 results, particularly on
01:17:21.880 results when it comes to
01:17:23.080 actually recovery.
01:17:24.460 And that could be beyond
01:17:25.240 just addictions.
01:17:26.000 That could be, you know, in
01:17:27.600 the case we're working on
01:17:28.720 individuals who are
01:17:29.800 obviously on our welfare
01:17:30.720 programs.
01:17:31.380 What that would look like is,
01:17:33.040 well, how many people within
01:17:34.020 these programs are ending up
01:17:35.080 back at work?
01:17:35.700 You're asking us for an
01:17:37.120 investment of millions of
01:17:38.080 dollars for work placements.
01:17:39.940 Well, the proof is how many
01:17:41.300 people are coming off the
01:17:42.600 rolls every year.
01:17:43.420 And so if you're coming back
01:17:44.120 up to me as the minister and
01:17:45.160 saying, I need this many more
01:17:46.500 million dollars a year above
01:17:48.300 population growth, well,
01:17:49.680 clearly why am I investing in
01:17:51.020 your employment programs,
01:17:52.000 right?
01:17:52.540 And so, you know, there's been
01:17:53.900 a lot of good programs like
01:17:55.200 that in my big ministry that I
01:17:57.160 think are worth looking at, but
01:17:58.820 we are not going to allow it to
01:18:00.460 continue without clear
01:18:01.720 assessments based on results.
01:18:03.340 And, you know, we're about at
01:18:04.980 six, seven months into that
01:18:06.020 process as a department, since
01:18:07.480 I took over this ministry.
01:18:08.460 And I really believe over the
01:18:09.900 next few years, we'll see much
01:18:12.020 more ability to answer that
01:18:13.240 question, but you're a hundred
01:18:14.440 percent correct.
01:18:15.060 I would say one of the things
01:18:16.720 I've learned in my time in this
01:18:18.020 file is that we actually can't
01:18:19.940 answer that question with
01:18:20.820 credibility.
01:18:21.480 Now, of course, we have to keep
01:18:22.560 helping people.
01:18:23.240 We can't stop, you know, we're
01:18:24.200 not going to let people freeze to
01:18:25.180 death and we're not going to
01:18:25.980 let children live on the streets
01:18:27.600 and we have to deal with these
01:18:28.460 issues.
01:18:29.160 But if we want results, we got to
01:18:31.480 lay out the target.
01:18:32.580 We got to set the goals and we
01:18:34.340 got to hold the people that we're
01:18:35.360 funding accountable as a
01:18:36.380 taxpayer based on results.
01:18:38.720 And so that's not just people in
01:18:40.420 beds.
01:18:40.760 It's how you're getting them out
01:18:41.640 of the beds.
01:18:42.120 It's how you're ending up making
01:18:43.500 sure that they don't end up
01:18:45.080 having to be in the system no
01:18:46.480 more, because I think that's what
01:18:47.740 everybody wants.
01:18:48.840 Yeah.
01:18:49.180 Yeah.
01:18:49.400 Well, that's a very, very tricky
01:18:50.820 problem.
01:18:51.300 So, you know, I worked for your
01:18:52.720 department.
01:18:53.900 Was that right?
01:18:54.560 In 1984.
01:18:55.820 Well, let me tell you that story
01:18:57.020 because it's germane to what we're
01:18:58.840 discussing.
01:18:59.280 So I was just I had just graduated
01:19:02.680 from the University of Alberta with
01:19:04.860 my undergraduate psychology degree
01:19:06.620 and I worked for social services in
01:19:09.920 the summer, helping them design an
01:19:12.040 evaluation program for daycare.
01:19:14.740 Oh, really?
01:19:15.460 Yeah.
01:19:15.800 Yeah.
01:19:16.100 And so I was an intern there for four
01:19:17.960 months and I got to know the assistant
01:19:19.500 deputy minister.
01:19:20.440 We got along quite nicely and she liked
01:19:22.100 me and and I worked hard and then
01:19:25.540 they hired me for a whole year as an
01:19:27.240 independent consultant.
01:19:28.380 And so then I worked on developing
01:19:29.980 the evaluation system for the daycare
01:19:32.320 programs in Alberta for a year.
01:19:34.300 But there was something else I did at
01:19:36.320 the same time because she gave me a
01:19:38.160 side job, which was a very comical
01:19:39.780 job, I'll tell you, because the year
01:19:41.860 before Deloitte had been commissioned
01:19:43.900 by the province to do a comprehensive
01:19:46.520 evaluation of the social services
01:19:48.860 provision.
01:19:49.980 And so Deloitte charged the provincial
01:19:52.140 government some rate that you can well
01:19:54.440 imagine would be commensurate with what
01:19:56.340 consulting services like Deloitte
01:19:58.100 charge and they produced a bunch of
01:20:00.700 numbers about what was spent and what
01:20:02.520 the effects were and so forth that were
01:20:04.340 hypothetically measurements.
01:20:06.120 And then my boss at the time said, could
01:20:10.200 you update these numbers?
01:20:12.540 And I thought, well, that's a pretty
01:20:13.880 funny request because I'm not Deloitte,
01:20:16.060 but I could give it a shot.
01:20:17.720 And so I did that over a few months.
01:20:19.920 And the first thing I found out was that
01:20:21.640 none of those numbers were real.
01:20:23.280 So, for example, social services couldn't
01:20:27.900 answer a basic question.
01:20:29.560 This is one of the questions she wanted
01:20:31.400 answered.
01:20:31.920 I think her name was Melanie Hotz, if I
01:20:34.160 remember correctly.
01:20:35.520 Yeah.
01:20:35.860 And she was a very sharp lady, this woman.
01:20:38.520 And one question she wanted answered was
01:20:42.560 what percentage of what the Department of
01:20:45.760 Social Services spends ends up in the
01:20:48.900 hands of the beneficiaries?
01:20:50.640 And so the basic question was, well, does
01:20:53.920 social services spend 95% of its money
01:20:57.000 supporting social service bureaucrats and
01:20:59.980 5% on the delivery of direct services?
01:21:02.980 And the answer was, well, here's the
01:21:04.880 number, but no one has any idea whatsoever
01:21:07.920 if that number is accurate.
01:21:09.400 So I updated this report at, believe me, a
01:21:12.880 fraction of the cost that Deloitte had
01:21:14.760 charged and with a hell of a lot more
01:21:16.660 accuracy and number.
01:21:17.760 But it was a shock to me.
01:21:19.440 I was only about 20 at the time, something
01:21:22.240 like that, 84, 22.
01:21:25.420 And I was shocked about two things.
01:21:29.700 I was shocked, first, that I was hired to
01:21:31.300 do that.
01:21:31.860 Second, that I could do it better than
01:21:33.440 Deloitte.
01:21:34.220 And third, that the whole bloody
01:21:36.980 department was blind.
01:21:39.620 It had no notion whatsoever of the
01:21:43.740 relationship between its inputs and its
01:21:45.700 outputs.
01:21:46.180 Now, that's the problem.
01:21:47.820 In some ways, that's the problem with a
01:21:49.720 government intervention system that's
01:21:51.460 unmoored from the discipline of private
01:21:56.540 enterprise, right?
01:21:57.440 Because there's no customer to give you
01:21:59.680 feedback.
01:22:00.700 But the reason I'm bringing that up is
01:22:02.960 because, well, just to my suspicions are
01:22:05.900 that not much has changed since.
01:22:07.980 And that, and that, now you made
01:22:13.440 allusion to the fact that you are putting
01:22:15.700 these evaluation systems into, okay, that's
01:22:19.480 the question.
01:22:20.400 To what degree do you think that the
01:22:23.580 Department of Social Services knows, the
01:22:26.040 Ministry of Social Services knows what it's
01:22:30.440 spending and what it's getting for its dollar?
01:22:34.700 Does it know at all?
01:22:36.600 So, I think it would depend on the area of
01:22:38.880 the department.
01:22:39.500 I think that in some areas, particularly where
01:22:42.120 we're focusing on things like children with
01:22:43.680 disabilities, people with development
01:22:45.700 disabilities, and some of the contracts that
01:22:48.240 we do around that where it's easier to measure
01:22:50.280 that, the direct results.
01:22:52.140 You know, we could definitely show you clear
01:22:54.480 statistics of the investment that we put into
01:22:56.780 affordable housing and how many people are
01:22:58.360 living within the, you know, as a result of
01:22:59.920 those investments.
01:23:00.540 But as you get more into these complicated
01:23:03.180 areas, I'm very comfortable saying that I
01:23:05.680 think we need to do more.
01:23:07.260 That, I will also say, though, I think Alberta
01:23:08.860 is one of the best in our country.
01:23:10.220 Part of that is because after 1984, as you get
01:23:13.600 in the 90s, along comes a fiscal revolution
01:23:16.000 inside our province, led by a former
01:23:18.000 Premier Ralph Klein, which really made our
01:23:20.860 social services system operate a little bit
01:23:22.840 more different than many other provinces.
01:23:24.620 We became much more comfortable working with
01:23:26.740 outside agencies.
01:23:27.520 I think I probably run one of the biggest
01:23:29.580 social services departments that relies on
01:23:32.040 non-profits, including even faith-based
01:23:33.740 organizations.
01:23:34.300 We're comfortable working with those
01:23:36.200 organizations.
01:23:36.920 And that started in the Ralph era, where they
01:23:38.580 would go, hey, let's not hire union people
01:23:40.640 to run our emergency shelters.
01:23:41.800 Let's go work with the Salvation Army.
01:23:43.320 Let's go work with these other organizations
01:23:44.980 inside the province to do so.
01:23:47.080 And so there became a little bit of a culture
01:23:48.920 to be able to actually go out and work a little
01:23:50.380 bit more outside of that scope of that union
01:23:53.320 bureaucracy type of thing that you would see
01:23:55.440 in most departments.
01:23:56.620 I am in no way claiming that we've done
01:23:58.600 that all the way, but I think it's a different
01:24:00.060 culture that we see in Alberta.
01:24:01.800 Yeah, well, that's a culture of distributed
01:24:04.080 responsibility, which is a good conservative
01:24:06.560 principle, right?
01:24:07.540 Is that all of this that doesn't have to be
01:24:10.020 centralized shouldn't.
01:24:11.660 And that's part of providing people with,
01:24:16.380 what would you say, the responsibilities that
01:24:18.420 actually give them meaningful lives, right?
01:24:20.480 You don't want the centralized agencies to be
01:24:22.860 giving handouts and offering, what would you
01:24:26.800 call, what would you call security and stability
01:24:29.720 to people so that they don't have to provide it
01:24:33.980 for themselves.
01:24:34.640 It's not going to work and it's not good for them.
01:24:37.440 Okay, okay.
01:24:38.060 So you're, now let's turn, if you would, let's turn
01:24:41.820 to a bit of a broader issue.
01:24:45.420 Now, you guys in the last couple of weeks, last
01:24:50.860 week even, have started somewhat of a fire in
01:24:55.460 Canadian politics because your leader, Danielle
01:24:58.580 Smith, has come out with policies that have upset
01:25:03.180 the compassionate left.
01:25:04.440 Let's put it that way.
01:25:05.340 Now, my understanding is that she has tightened up
01:25:09.660 the restrictions on offering so-called, this is like one
01:25:14.620 of the biggest verbal lies I've ever heard.
01:25:18.260 So-called gender affirming care, which means exactly
01:25:21.800 the opposite, by the way, by any reasonable standard,
01:25:25.120 by tightening up the ability, by restricting the ability
01:25:30.240 of those who would offer the opportunity to transform
01:25:34.620 themselves physically by tightening up the provision
01:25:38.140 of that service to children, to minors.
01:25:40.800 Now, that's caused quite the outcry, not least among
01:25:44.000 Justin Trudeau's minions and faux-compassionate
01:25:47.760 butchers, to put it bluntly.
01:25:53.260 Can you tell me a little bit more about the nature
01:25:56.120 of that policy, how you guys organized yourself so that
01:25:59.840 you had enough gall and courage to manage this?
01:26:04.000 Because it's a very rare thing that's being done.
01:26:06.560 And what you think the response is going to be?
01:26:09.580 Well, first, let me say, we've got a very rare premier,
01:26:13.140 and she's pretty brave.
01:26:14.660 And I think she's shown that several times in her last year
01:26:18.220 or so.
01:26:18.900 But this issue would probably be the biggest, where she's
01:26:21.380 been able to do that.
01:26:23.480 I also want to be clear, I believe my premier is standing
01:26:26.340 where the vast majority of certainly Albertans are,
01:26:29.320 and where the vast majority of, I think, Canadians are,
01:26:31.920 and probably beyond that.
01:26:32.780 But certainly the people that we work for, which is Albertans,
01:26:35.160 the vast majority agree, particularly my constituents.
01:26:38.060 I think that where she's headed is in the right direction,
01:26:42.300 which is to recognize that children are children.
01:26:45.780 It's some, you know, we restrict children from making
01:26:48.180 other decisions that have significant impact on their lives
01:26:51.320 until they're at a spot where they can, from maturity level,
01:26:55.120 brain development level, all those things that you understand
01:26:57.360 better than me, frankly.
01:26:58.780 But, you know, we tell our kids when they can drink,
01:27:00.520 for example, in our provinces.
01:27:01.900 I mean, we determine when those things could take place.
01:27:05.080 And I don't think that anybody that is thinking about this
01:27:08.180 in a reasonable way finds it at all that bizarre that we would
01:27:12.300 do the same for something as drastic as changing one's body
01:27:15.400 permanently when they are below the age of 18.
01:27:18.080 I mean, this is a thing that a 12- or 13-year-old should not
01:27:21.200 be put in a spot to do yet.
01:27:22.680 It doesn't make any sense.
01:27:24.240 The other thing that she's done is she's blocked, or she will be
01:27:27.520 bringing forward our government, not using hormone treatment
01:27:31.220 for transgender purposes.
01:27:33.260 There could be other reasons below 18 where hormone treatment
01:27:35.840 may be prescribed, right?
01:27:37.560 But that obviously, for medical reasons, would continue.
01:27:40.440 But to say the same thing, these decisions can take place after 18.
01:27:44.420 And, you know, at its core, this is about putting parents back
01:27:47.660 into their children's lives.
01:27:49.580 And that, for me, as a father inside this province, is where this is at.
01:27:53.500 This should be about compassion.
01:27:54.700 At the end of the day, we are talking about children, and we need to be
01:27:57.700 able to make sure that we recognize that.
01:28:00.100 But we also know, I mean, look at the issues we just talked about today.
01:28:03.740 Lots of those individuals, I don't think, would ever come into
01:28:07.100 counseling or any other process and say, geez, I wish my parents
01:28:09.900 spent less time with me.
01:28:11.220 I wish my parents were less involved.
01:28:13.280 That's just not true.
01:28:14.140 You know it's going to be the opposite way.
01:28:15.800 And so making sure that we connect children with parents and let parents
01:28:19.120 lead this process with their children is the right thing to do.
01:28:22.120 Now, I will recognize, because what you're going to hear from people who are upset
01:28:25.600 is say, well, some children will get hurt.
01:28:27.720 There are bad parents.
01:28:29.120 Sadly, there is.
01:28:30.260 We've seen parents kill their children at times.
01:28:33.340 But the reality is that you don't disconnect all the children from the good parents
01:28:38.480 to deal with that minority situation where there's bad parents.
01:28:41.560 We need to work through our children's services system.
01:28:43.940 We need to protect children for sure.
01:28:45.460 And we need to interact in circumstances where children may not be being cared for properly.
01:28:49.440 But you don't do that by taking away children from their good parents, from the good parents.
01:28:55.260 It doesn't make any sense at all.
01:28:56.420 Of course, there's bad parents.
01:28:57.560 It's just crazy.
01:28:58.060 Well, of course, there's bad parents.
01:28:59.600 There's going to be a minority of psychopaths.
01:29:01.560 But there's going to be just as many psychopaths among the social workers.
01:29:05.100 So, you know, that's just not a good argument.
01:29:08.040 That's why that argument makes me so mad.
01:29:09.880 Well, it's an absolutely idiotic argument.
01:29:12.120 And it's driven by an underlying notion that the state has the right to reconstruct humanity itself
01:29:19.640 in the name of some utopian vision, right?
01:29:22.000 There's no excuse for it.
01:29:23.320 It's appalling.
01:29:24.500 What are the exactly, in detail, to the degree that you can provide them,
01:29:29.860 what changed with Premier Smith's new legislation in terms of restrictions?
01:29:35.000 Like, what exactly did she restrict and how are those restrictions on these mutilating
01:29:44.240 and sterilizing procedures, to be quite frank?
01:29:46.820 What are the restrictions that are now in place on those procedures?
01:29:51.060 So, I think it probably comes down to three main areas.
01:29:54.500 Well, four, if we can talk about sport in a minute.
01:29:56.940 But three main areas.
01:29:58.820 First is that parents in our province will have to be informed if their child is trying to talk about things
01:30:05.260 like changing pronouns or these types of circumstances.
01:30:07.640 Informed by schools?
01:30:09.140 Correct.
01:30:09.720 That that can't be held back from parents.
01:30:12.120 Parents need to know what is taking place with their children.
01:30:14.140 So, that's one.
01:30:15.160 Yeah.
01:30:15.340 Second is to ban underage, any underage surgeries that would change either top or bottom
01:30:21.980 is often how we've expressed that surgeries that would change somebody's body.
01:30:27.200 And then lastly was stopping hormonal treatments for the purpose of transition below for minor
01:30:35.700 children.
01:30:35.940 Okay, okay, great.
01:30:36.600 Now, that's, so that's, okay, so that, is that already instantiated in legislation?
01:30:41.740 That's already happened?
01:30:43.420 No.
01:30:43.460 It has not happened.
01:30:44.340 It's been announced that that's what we're going to do.
01:30:45.920 So, that's what the Premier did.
01:30:46.920 She went out, she made very clear where we're going, this is our intention, and that we will
01:30:52.360 be coming forward shortly with legislation to make that happen.
01:30:55.240 Okay, so one of the things I would recommend, by the way, and I know this is gratuitous advice,
01:31:00.060 but it might be useful.
01:31:01.400 Don't use top and bottom.
01:31:03.680 That's a euphemism put forward by the psychopathic predators who are pushing this agenda.
01:31:10.000 It's castration and mastectomy.
01:31:13.080 Right.
01:31:13.700 Got it.
01:31:14.020 And use the blunt terms, because it's not cutesy top and bottom, you know, not in bit.
01:31:21.100 There's nothing about what is being done on the surgical front that's the least bit cutesy.
01:31:26.340 Did you know that the two leading causes of sensitive teeth are irritated gums and weak
01:31:30.960 enamel?
01:31:31.620 Switch to Sensodyne Sensitivity Gum and Enamel.
01:31:34.560 With twice daily brushing, you can relieve sensitivity, help restore gum health, and re-harden
01:31:39.000 enamel.
01:31:39.640 Three issues, one answer.
01:31:41.140 Yeah, and that, you're right, to make clear, that is taking a child's body and permanently
01:31:48.300 changing it, removing parts or adding parts for individuals that we actually, at this moment,
01:31:55.280 would not even allow to make a decision to drink in a bar.
01:31:58.340 Exactly, exactly.
01:31:59.620 Yes, adding pseudo parts.
01:32:01.380 Yeah, yeah.
01:32:03.260 Malfunctioning, experimental pseudo parts.
01:32:06.660 Right, right.
01:32:07.580 And while at the moment, at the same time, pretending that they're the same as the real
01:32:12.660 thing, which they're not at all in any way.
01:32:16.200 Right.
01:32:16.760 And then I want to add the fourth thing that she's doing, that we're doing, is through
01:32:19.940 our government, under our premier's leadership, which is to make sure that women can participate
01:32:25.680 in their sports and not be in a circumstance where an intact biological male and or a former
01:32:32.240 biological male can come along and participate in their sports.
01:32:37.100 And so in our province, we don't want to be a spot where a hardworking female athlete is
01:32:41.200 all of a sudden in an M&A fight with a guy my size.
01:32:44.940 I mean, it's, and I think that again, I want to re-
01:32:47.180 It's insane.
01:32:48.080 Exactly.
01:32:48.800 84%, I believe, is the last poll I saw of my provincial neighbours who agree with these
01:32:56.100 points.
01:32:56.640 And so I actually don't believe this is that controversial.
01:32:58.880 I think people want to make it controversial.
01:33:00.800 But anytime that we're standing up for minor children and parents working in their children's
01:33:05.920 lives, I think we're in the right spot.
01:33:07.720 So I can share a little bit of my experience on that front with you guys.
01:33:11.780 Um, so here's, so you're going to, you, and you're already in this, you're going to get
01:33:18.100 a lot of angry, narcissistic psychopaths screeching at you, and they're going to make a lot of
01:33:25.320 noise and they're going to attempt to damage your moral reputations.
01:33:29.440 If you apologize or back off, you'll lose, they'll win.
01:33:33.740 If you hold your course, it'll be real intense for about a month.
01:33:38.720 And then everything will shift radically in your favour, and you'll be seen as pioneers.
01:33:45.760 If you can just tolerate that intermediary period of boiling oil, you know, the sorts of epithets
01:33:53.580 that Trudeau and his demented dimwits are, are, are, are what, are hurling your way, you're
01:34:00.940 going to come out of this.
01:34:02.540 You're going to come out of this as the most forward-looking, amongst the most forward-looking
01:34:07.180 political leaders, not only in Canada, but in North America.
01:34:11.320 And you could make a big bloody difference all across the continent and maybe in the
01:34:17.240 West more broadly.
01:34:18.420 So I would say all the noise you're generating, that's a sign that you've hit the target very
01:34:26.900 squarely.
01:34:27.520 I agree with you.
01:34:28.840 And I, I can assure you, uh, that the premier and her cabinet are 100% dedicated to, to protect.
01:34:36.600 This is about protecting kids in our mind.
01:34:39.340 And, and, and that, if we can't do that as leaders, we have no business being in these
01:34:44.000 jobs.
01:34:44.360 And so we're, uh, we're very comfortable.
01:34:46.640 We're going to stay the course.
01:34:47.780 We're going to protect the children of Alberta, and we're going to continue to make sure this
01:34:51.640 is the best province in our country to live in.
01:34:53.300 Okay.
01:34:54.380 So, so two, one final question, what proportion of the 10 cities do you think you've dealt
01:35:00.640 with already?
01:35:01.560 And how fast do you think this process is going to roll out?
01:35:07.220 So we, we've got a little over 200 of these 10 cities down already.
01:35:11.340 I think we're the last, last report I saw is we've got about another 78 to go.
01:35:15.760 Now what's going to happen now, we're going to start to see them try to pop back up again.
01:35:19.760 So there's going to be another round where we're going to go in there.
01:35:21.900 And this is one of the reasons why we're not playing around with notice that this is
01:35:25.560 not acceptable in our cities.
01:35:27.900 And we will move quickly to support the police to take down the next round.
01:35:31.300 And eventually people will learn that's what's going to take place.
01:35:34.280 And then I think you'll see two things happen.
01:35:36.640 You'll probably see some of this pressure move into our underground transit systems.
01:35:40.100 And we're going to move the same way there.
01:35:41.780 We're going to say, that's not going to be acceptable here.
01:35:43.860 We're going to use the same process.
01:35:45.000 We're going to support the police to get people to supports.
01:35:47.680 And then I suspect what will happen is we'll probably start to see some pop-ups just for
01:35:51.200 nights and then they move.
01:35:52.800 And at that point, we've had success with permanent tent cities.
01:35:56.120 And then we'll reevaluate where we go next.
01:35:58.420 And so we're very dedicated to this.
01:36:01.140 My boss, Premier Smith, has told me this must be done.
01:36:04.580 And when she tells me something's going to be done, it's going to be done.
01:36:07.860 All right.
01:36:08.320 All right.
01:36:08.740 Well, it sounds like the next person from your government that I could talk to and should,
01:36:15.060 perhaps, if he'd be willing, is Minister Williams.
01:36:18.100 Yeah.
01:36:18.500 So we could set that up.
01:36:19.640 And I know he's a big fan and would be excited to do it.
01:36:23.880 In fact, he's probably a little irritated with me that I got to go first.
01:36:26.420 So if you get him up, he'll be excited.
01:36:28.960 All right.
01:36:29.440 All right.
01:36:29.840 Well, I think we should definitely set that up.
01:36:32.440 And then we should probably also do another podcast with the Minister responsible for higher
01:36:38.240 education.
01:36:39.020 Because we could have a very fun conversation about that, too.
01:36:42.500 I would like to watch that one.
01:36:44.640 So any way I can help get that connected, I'm happy to do it.
01:36:48.100 Let's do both of those.
01:36:49.240 Let's do both of those.
01:36:50.060 I thought this went very well.
01:36:51.580 And so thank you very much for your time today and for answering all my impertinent questions
01:36:56.740 and for walking through all of this in detail.
01:36:58.940 Well, I'm hoping that Alberta can provide a model for the rehabilitation of these tent
01:37:06.740 cities across North America, because people really don't know what to do, you know.
01:37:10.400 And you guys have a pretty comprehensive plan.
01:37:12.760 Now, you know, it's reasonable to be skeptical about it because you're dealing with a hard
01:37:16.620 problem.
01:37:17.000 But the fact that you've already removed 200 of 300 tent cities, you know, that shows some
01:37:22.720 real will here.
01:37:23.520 And it doesn't look to me like you've taken a particularly severe beating on the public
01:37:28.880 front for doing this, right?
01:37:30.240 It's caused a lot less furor, for example, than Premier Smith's move on the transgender
01:37:36.640 affirming front.
01:37:38.360 It certainly has been quieter.
01:37:40.660 I will tell you, it's exactly what you said.
01:37:42.540 We got hit real hard the first couple of days as we announced it.
01:37:46.040 It was really loud.
01:37:47.160 And we just stayed the course because we knew we were doing the right thing.
01:37:49.980 And, you know, both the chief of police in Edmonton and myself have received more positive
01:37:54.880 correspondence on this than any other issue I've done in my 10 years.
01:37:57.720 Oh, that, well, there you go.
01:37:59.380 That's so, well, that's the advantage of doing the long-term right thing.
01:38:03.840 Like people will swing around behind you if you can withstand that initial trial by fire.
01:38:10.280 All of these things, they're great opportunities, right?
01:38:13.520 Because if you can see a serious problem and you can offer a solution, then, you know, you've
01:38:17.680 actually done your job and wouldn't that be a wonderful thing?
01:38:21.540 Yep, exactly.
01:38:22.900 More of us should probably do it.
01:38:24.680 Yeah, well, we should also set up a talk with the Minister of Energy.
01:38:29.040 I can help with all that.
01:38:30.620 Let's do that because Danielle also announced when I was in Alberta with Carlson and with
01:38:39.300 Lord Conrad Black that Alberta is planning to double its gas and oil production.
01:38:46.680 And that's a real slap in the face to Stephen Guilbeau.
01:38:50.160 And he's certainly an individual who richly deserves at least one.
01:38:55.220 And so I think we could have a very productive conversation about the true benefits of the
01:39:01.740 fossil fuel industry in Alberta and what and how Canada could thrive and truly thrive and
01:39:09.220 offer its resources to the world if, you know, if Canadians could get their head screwed on
01:39:15.740 straight about just exactly what was what.
01:39:18.740 And so let's do all of those.
01:39:20.860 That would be good.
01:39:21.880 My guys are in the room with me here right now, so we'll know them all.
01:39:25.060 We'll connect them with your people.
01:39:26.120 I spent three years as Minister of Environment in Alberta.
01:39:28.100 So, Guilbeau was one of my counterparts.
01:39:31.240 We won't get into that today, but I've got a few stories and this is not a friend of this
01:39:36.240 province.
01:39:37.000 Oh, that's for sure.
01:39:38.460 He is, and he's not a friend of Canadians.
01:39:40.840 Where they're headed is to a very dark place.
01:39:45.700 Dark and cold.
01:39:46.660 A dark and cold place.
01:39:47.460 I was about to say.
01:39:48.560 And very cold place.
01:39:50.020 Yeah, that's for sure.
01:39:50.900 Well said.
01:39:51.540 We'll get you connected with everybody though.
01:39:53.520 Okay, okay.
01:39:54.240 So for everybody watching and listening, you'll know if you've attended other podcasts that
01:39:59.580 I'm going to take another half an hour with my guest on the Daily Wire Plus side and we're
01:40:04.600 going to talk about the genesis of his political career and I would say also his hopes for the
01:40:09.620 future because I'd like to know about that and the conservative vision in Alberta for the
01:40:14.300 future.
01:40:14.800 And so if you'd be inclined to join us for the additional half an hour behind the Daily Wire
01:40:19.880 paywall, you'd be more than welcome to do that.
01:40:21.960 And you could throw a little support the Daily Wire Plus way, which I would also recommend
01:40:25.960 because they are at minimum a bastion of the free speech that is becoming increasingly
01:40:32.300 difficult to come by in our society and that is threatened more and more on platforms like
01:40:38.880 YouTube, which still has the good graces to offer the sorts of things that we're discussing
01:40:43.880 today.
01:40:44.640 So join us there.
01:40:45.960 And thank you very much, sir.
01:40:48.100 I'm looking forward to talking to your colleagues.
01:40:50.460 You bet.
01:40:50.860 Yeah, thanks for the forthright discussion.
01:40:53.240 Bye-bye.
01:40:54.440 Did you know that the two leading causes of sensitive teeth are irritated gums and weak
01:40:58.740 enamel?
01:40:59.400 Switch to Sensodyne Sensitivity Gum and Enamel.
01:41:02.320 With twice daily brushing, you can relieve sensitivity, help restore gum health, and re-harden
01:41:06.780 enamel.
01:41:07.420 Three issues, one answer.