The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 438. Aboutness, Secular vs. Religious Ethics, & Plato’s Aviary ｜ Dr. Daniel Dennett

00:00:00.960 Hey everyone, real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious and important.

00:00:06.480 Dr. Jordan Peterson has created a new series that could be a lifeline for those battling depression and anxiety.

00:00:12.740 We know how isolating and overwhelming these conditions can be, and we wanted to take a moment to reach out to those listening who may be struggling.

00:00:20.100 With decades of experience helping patients, Dr. Peterson offers a unique understanding of why you might be feeling this way in his new series.

00:00:27.420 He provides a roadmap towards healing, showing that while the journey isn't easy, it's absolutely possible to find your way forward.

00:00:35.360 If you're suffering, please know you are not alone. There's hope, and there's a path to feeling better.

00:00:41.780 Go to Daily Wire Plus now and start watching Dr. Jordan B. Peterson on depression and anxiety.

00:00:47.460 Let this be the first step towards the brighter future you deserve.

00:00:57.420 Hello, everybody.

00:01:09.760 I had the opportunity today to talk to the philosopher Daniel Dennett, who, along with Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins,

00:01:17.620 is probably perhaps best known to the world as one of the four horsemen of the atheist movement that was being so influential over the last 20 years.

00:01:27.980 And as many of you know, I've had many discussions with Sam Harris and a couple of discussions with Richard Dawkins, another one hypothetically forthcoming.

00:01:36.640 And it occurred to me a couple of weeks ago that I hadn't spoken with Dr. Daniel Dennett.

00:01:41.700 And I felt that that would be enlightening and necessary.

00:01:46.400 And so today we talked about his understanding of the relationship between science and morality,

00:01:53.460 the relationship between morality and the secular, and the relationship between morality, the secular, and the religious.

00:02:00.680 And we exchanged our views about how those different systems of apprehension and conception might be interrelated.

00:02:08.840 And talked about the difficulties in both discussing and reconciling the scientific and religious views.

00:02:20.600 Dr. Dennett's viewpoint is that the religious viewpoint has been superseded fundamentally,

00:02:26.900 that it might have been a necessary precondition for civilized development, but that it's been superseded.

00:02:33.000 And we got a long ways in that discussion, not to the end, and for obvious reasons, but welcome to the exchange.

00:02:45.500 So, Dr. Dennett, and I will call you Dan, I'm very interested in talking to you about your ideas about religious belief and practice.

00:02:56.720 And you may know that I've talked to some of the people who you've been intellectually associated with.

00:03:03.980 I've had two discussions with Richard Dawkins, and I think we're planning a third if the information I'm getting is correct.

00:03:11.060 And I've spoken with Sam Harris a number of times, and I think we share a lot of interests, you and I.

00:03:17.860 And one of them is a very deep interest, I would say.

00:03:22.420 And I was reviewing your book today, Breaking the Spell.

00:03:27.280 And that's really the domain that I wanted to discuss, although I'm perfectly happy to branch out from that in anywhere that our conversation takes us.

00:03:36.540 And I want to try out some ideas on you.

00:03:39.240 And I want to see what you have to say about them.

00:03:44.600 I'm going to start with a definition, if you don't mind, from your book, so that we have some sense that we're talking about the same thing.

00:03:51.720 I think I'll try two definitions, because there's two domains I think that we could dig into that would be very useful.

00:03:57.800 So, like you, I'm interested in what I believe I'm interested in, the scientific analysis of religious belief.

00:04:05.960 I don't think that we'd necessarily...

00:04:08.800 Well, I am too.

00:04:09.260 Yes, yes, yes.

00:04:10.640 Yeah, and so that's where I'd like to, that's what I'd like to investigate.

00:04:15.220 So, I'm going to start out with a couple of definitions from your books, and then we can dig into that.

00:04:21.340 So, the first one is that you described the religious domain as a vowed belief in a supernatural agent or agents whose approval is to be sought.

00:04:38.060 And that was a definition that I took from breaking the spell.

00:04:42.540 I'm wondering if, and then I'm going to add something to that, and then I'll get you to comment about whether you think those definitions still suffice, or maybe how they've changed in your thinking, or anything you'd like to add to them.

00:04:53.720 So, the other thing that I'm curious about here is, you talked about aboutness, and you said the aboutness of a pencil, of the pencil marks.

00:05:04.020 The aboutness of the pencil marks composing a shopping list is derived from the intentions of the person whose list it is.

00:05:10.940 And I'm interested in that, the relationship between intentionality, and the reason I want to bring that into the discussion of religion is because I think there's a link between the ideas that I've been developing and the ideas of intentionality that, at least in part, typify your thought.

00:05:29.460 And I don't see the relationship precisely between those ideas of intentionality and this definition of the religious enterprise that you described.

00:05:40.100 And so, that's the first thing I'd like to get clarified.

00:05:42.920 So, my understanding of perception is that aim defines perception.

00:05:51.460 And that seems to me to be akin to your, it's akin in some ways to your conception of intentionality and aboutness.

00:05:58.120 Does that seem at least vaguely plausible?

00:06:00.920 Yes, more or less.

00:06:02.060 When I speak about intentionality, I mean it in the philosopher's sense derived from Rantano.

00:06:10.900 It's the aboutness is a good synonym for intentionality.

00:06:17.380 And it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with one's intentions.

00:06:22.620 If I'm startled by a loud noise, my startle is about that loud noise, but there's no intention involved in the sense of, what do you intend, sir?

00:06:38.100 I may have some intentions immediately, like I am going to run or I'm going to duck.

00:06:43.220 But intention in the, like the legal sense of, did you do that on purpose, is a distinct notion.

00:06:55.140 Okay, so maybe you can clarify what it means, that means in relationship to aboutness then.

00:07:01.140 Are those, that's obviously, I'm not familiar with the distinction that you're drawing or sufficiently familiar.

00:07:07.320 What's the relationship between the concepts of intention and aboutness?

00:07:10.960 Well, the Latin intendere arcum in is to point an arrow at.

00:07:20.480 And Brentano and others said, this is the key to thought.

00:07:29.300 It's directed at something.

00:07:32.600 It has an intentional object.

00:07:35.480 The intentional object is whatever the thought is about.

00:07:39.520 And the curious thing about thought is that they can be about Santa Claus or the Easter bunny.

00:07:48.400 And in that case, they're about something that doesn't exist.

00:07:52.940 But that creates logical problems.

00:07:56.920 But we can set those logical problems aside and just deal with the fact that

00:08:02.440 we have to explain how information that's in our brains can be about things in the world

00:08:12.820 and also about things that don't even exist.

00:08:18.280 Okay, so that, okay, okay.

00:08:20.400 So that helps.

00:08:21.960 And the Latin that you referred to is also very helpful.

00:08:25.500 So I'm going to throw something in from left field, let's say.

00:08:29.240 So the word sin, the word sin, there's a three-language point of derivation for the word sin.

00:08:39.940 They're all from archery.

00:08:42.120 To sin means to miss the target.

00:08:44.680 So Greek is hamartia.

00:08:47.280 I don't remember what the Hebrew is.

00:08:49.820 Chet, I think, but I can't remember.

00:08:51.520 It doesn't matter.

00:08:52.080 It means to miss the target.

00:08:54.320 And it is an archery term.

00:08:55.660 And so you could think of sin in that regard as malintention or misintention

00:09:02.960 or merely failure to miss the target.

00:09:06.360 And so there's a, and then you talked about intentionality

00:09:14.380 with regard to thought being directed at something.

00:09:17.360 And so the way I've been conceptualizing the religious enterprise

00:09:23.100 isn't so much in relationship to the definition that you offered

00:09:29.380 with regard to avowed belief in a supernatural agent or agents

00:09:33.700 whose approval is to be sought,

00:09:35.200 although I'd like to get into that because it's dead relevant.

00:09:39.320 Let me run something by you.

00:09:41.120 So when we aim our attention at something,

00:09:44.860 we're aiming our attention within a hierarchy of aim.

00:09:49.660 And the religious enterprise looks to me to be the enterprise

00:09:53.000 that specifies the highest aim or the most foundational of aims.

00:09:56.740 And I think that our instinct that there's such a thing as depth,

00:10:04.040 say depth in literary analysis, for example,

00:10:06.240 or depth of significance in relationship to concepts,

00:10:09.480 is a function of the fact that there's a hierarchy of intention.

00:10:14.060 And I think that as you move toward the foundation or up to the apex,

00:10:20.600 depending on which metaphor frame you use,

00:10:23.060 you start to enter into the realm of what's deep

00:10:25.780 and that the realm of what's deep is what signifies the religious.

00:10:30.600 I mean, this is like a technical definition.

00:10:32.640 And so imagine that your intentions,

00:10:36.120 any given intention depends on another intention

00:10:38.880 and that depends on another intention.

00:10:40.620 But as you stack the intentions up and analyze them,

00:10:45.820 you go down into the depths to see what the foundational intentions are.

00:10:50.600 The religious is the realm of the foundations of intention.

00:10:54.760 There's a good way of thinking about it.

00:10:56.860 So that's a different definition, obviously,

00:10:59.300 than the supernatural agent definition.

00:11:01.560 And so I'm wondering, well, first of all,

00:11:03.980 if that explanation makes any sense to you,

00:11:06.340 because it's pretty brief,

00:11:07.940 and also what your reactions to that are.

00:11:11.420 Well, my reaction to it is that the term that I would use

00:11:17.640 for what you're talking about is the summum bonum,

00:11:20.580 the highest good.

00:11:23.120 And that is not necessarily a religious idea.

00:11:30.360 I have my sense of what's the most important thing,

00:11:34.440 what are the most important things,

00:11:36.680 and I'm not religious.

00:11:39.200 But I'm, I'd like to say, deep.

00:11:41.820 I share the hierarchy of ends that you describe.

00:11:48.380 I don't think of my endorsement and allegiance to that ethic

00:11:55.720 as a religious ethic.

00:12:00.180 But there it is, and I am happy to say

00:12:03.080 there are some things that are more important than others.

00:12:06.600 Okay, okay.

00:12:07.300 Well, well, that's why I wanted,

00:12:09.260 that's actually why I wanted to start with definition, right?

00:12:12.280 Because there's no sense having a discussion

00:12:15.240 about what something means

00:12:17.000 unless we can agree what territory we're wandering over.

00:12:20.600 Okay, so now we seem to have established,

00:12:23.080 okay, so we seem to have established some agreement

00:12:25.180 that there's a hierarchy of conceptualization,

00:12:27.680 or you said even more specifically a hierarchy of good,

00:12:30.820 and you referred to the summum bonum,

00:12:33.640 and you said you have a hierarchy of good,

00:12:36.440 and you believe that there's something,

00:12:38.600 hypothetically, something at the apex or at the foundation.

00:12:41.620 So, okay, so let's see.

00:12:46.660 It's definitely the case that there are medieval conceptions

00:12:50.760 of the Judeo-Christian God as the summum bonum, 0.62

00:12:54.380 and there are insistences in the biblical corpus

00:12:58.140 that in the final analysis, God is ineffable,

00:13:01.700 even though he's conceptualized in those stories

00:13:05.520 as a spirit with whom communication is possible.

00:13:09.300 But his fundamental nature disappears into the ineffable.

00:13:15.360 That's what the theologians claim when they're pushed.

00:13:18.760 And so, okay, so let's see if we can figure that out.

00:13:21.300 So, I don't think that the conception of God

00:13:24.900 as the sum of all that's good

00:13:27.000 is an accurate conceptualization.

00:13:28.800 It seems to me it's more like

00:13:30.160 whatever God is conceptualized to be

00:13:33.460 is that which all good things share in common, right?

00:13:38.660 I know that that makes the concept of God

00:13:43.800 something like the central element

00:13:47.020 in a web of ideas that surround the concept

00:13:50.680 of the good as such, right, right?

00:13:52.260 It's not exactly a sum.

00:13:53.700 And it's important to be precise

00:13:55.000 when discussing things like this.

00:13:56.840 Now, you said you have a conception of the highest good,

00:13:59.900 and so can I ask you what that is?

00:14:01.860 Well, it's not readily definable,

00:14:06.480 but there's...

00:14:09.000 I think that human beings

00:14:12.500 are the measure of what's good.

00:14:16.840 And over the eons,

00:14:19.340 we have gradually discovered

00:14:22.640 and invented and contrived

00:14:26.420 standards of what we think good is.

00:14:31.400 And that's as much for, you know,

00:14:34.380 a good wheel or a good axe

00:14:36.620 or a good airplane

00:14:38.800 or a good person.

00:14:42.100 And these are all sorts of different...

00:14:44.860 You know, there's even, I suppose,

00:14:47.580 good machine guns.

00:14:49.180 Good at being a machine gun.

00:14:51.820 But the moral good

00:14:53.640 is a particular human realm.

00:14:57.060 I think animals don't really have morality.

00:15:01.520 They have something

00:15:02.260 that makes morality possible,

00:15:04.540 but they don't have morality.

00:15:06.520 But we human beings

00:15:07.980 have evolved systems of morality.

00:15:12.000 And they implicitly fix.

00:15:18.280 They don't define in the geometrical sense

00:15:22.780 what the highest good is,

00:15:24.660 but they outline it.

00:15:27.920 They point to it.

00:15:30.880 And it's a moving target.

00:15:34.600 What we think of as good today

00:15:37.740 is quite different

00:15:39.440 from what was thought good

00:15:40.760 back in Old Testament days.

00:15:43.660 Nobody today would want to live

00:15:45.340 with Old Testament morality.

00:15:46.960 We've come a long way from that.

00:15:53.600 Thank goodness.

00:15:55.320 Thank goodness.

00:15:57.520 Goodness has evolved.

00:16:00.780 Okay, okay.

00:16:01.560 So, it was interesting, you know,

00:16:03.400 when you listed out things

00:16:05.160 that could be good,

00:16:07.080 the things that came to mind first for you

00:16:09.720 were...

00:16:11.960 Some of them were tool-like.

00:16:14.120 A good wheel, a good axe,

00:16:15.480 even a good machine gun.

00:16:16.960 And I like that.

00:16:17.980 I like that.

00:16:18.800 And I think we have some commonality

00:16:20.380 of conception there, too,

00:16:21.580 because there's a pragmatic definition of good.

00:16:25.560 It's something like...

00:16:26.460 Something that's good fits its purpose.

00:16:28.440 And, well, that would be in a hierarchy as well.

00:16:31.040 So, that purpose would have to be good as well, right?

00:16:33.360 There's a functional element to that.

00:16:36.560 And so, okay.

00:16:37.780 And so, the way that I've been conceptualizing perception,

00:16:42.680 and I think this is a neurophysiologically informed conceptualization,

00:16:47.220 is that once we establish our aim,

00:16:50.860 the world arrays itself around us

00:16:53.140 into something like pathways and tools and obstacles.

00:16:56.940 That's associated...

00:16:58.540 That concept I derived in part

00:17:00.260 from J.J. Gibson's conceptualization of perception.

00:17:03.320 Yeah, exactly.

00:17:04.640 Affordances.

00:17:05.540 Right, exactly.

00:17:06.400 Okay.

00:17:06.740 And so, what do you think of Gibson's ideas?

00:17:09.920 I think most of them are excellent.

00:17:13.580 I've been writing about affordances for some time.

00:17:18.200 And what I think Gibson was weak on

00:17:23.060 is he didn't talk about how affordances

00:17:26.940 are actually tracked in the brain.

00:17:30.580 He sort of threw up his hands about that

00:17:37.660 and said, the information is in the light.

00:17:41.500 Well, yeah, but how does the information in the light

00:17:44.360 get into our heads and do what it does?

00:17:47.300 That's the part that he was weak on.

00:17:49.780 But we're making great progress on that today

00:17:52.400 in the neuroscience.

00:17:54.460 Going online without ExpressVPN

00:17:56.380 is like not paying attention

00:17:57.780 to the safety demonstration on a flight.

00:17:59.900 Most of the time, you'll probably be fine.

00:18:02.020 But what if one day that weird yellow mask

00:18:04.420 drops down from overhead

00:18:05.440 and you have no idea what to do?

00:18:07.720 In our hyper-connected world,

00:18:09.060 your digital privacy isn't just a luxury.

00:18:11.500 It's a fundamental right.

00:18:12.860 Every time you connect to an unsecured network

00:18:14.820 in a cafe, hotel, or airport,

00:18:17.120 you're essentially broadcasting

00:18:18.280 your personal information to anyone

00:18:20.100 with the technical know-how to intercept it.

00:18:22.160 And let's be clear,

00:18:23.040 it doesn't take a genius hacker to do this.

00:18:25.360 With some off-the-shelf hardware,

00:18:26.940 even a tech-savvy teenager

00:18:28.360 could potentially access your passwords,

00:18:30.500 bank logins, and credit card details.

00:18:32.740 Now, you might think,

00:18:34.000 what's the big deal?

00:18:34.860 Who'd want my data anyway?

00:18:36.140 Well, on the dark web,

00:18:37.600 your personal information

00:18:38.720 could fetch up to $1,000.

00:18:41.040 That's right,

00:18:41.580 there's a whole underground economy

00:18:43.120 built on stolen identities.

00:18:45.100 Enter ExpressVPN.

00:18:46.860 It's like a digital fortress,

00:18:48.320 creating an encrypted tunnel

00:18:49.500 between your device and the internet.

00:18:51.540 Their encryption is so robust

00:18:53.120 that it would take a hacker

00:18:54.160 with a supercomputer

00:18:55.000 over a billion years to crack it.

00:18:57.140 But don't let its power fool you.

00:18:58.980 ExpressVPN is incredibly user-friendly.

00:19:01.320 With just one click,

00:19:02.260 you're protected across all your devices.

00:19:04.380 Phones, laptops, tablets, you name it.

00:19:06.560 That's why I use ExpressVPN

00:19:07.920 whenever I'm traveling

00:19:09.040 or working from a coffee shop.

00:19:10.680 It gives me peace of mind

00:19:11.740 knowing that my research,

00:19:13.080 communications, and personal data

00:19:14.820 are shielded from prying eyes.

00:19:16.660 Secure your online data today

00:19:18.200 by visiting expressvpn.com slash jordan.

00:19:21.420 That's E-X-P-R-E-S-S-V-P-N dot com slash jordan

00:19:25.180 and you can get an extra three months free.

00:19:27.840 ExpressVPN.com slash jordan.

00:19:32.260 Yeah, okay, okay.

00:19:33.860 So let me elaborate a little bit

00:19:35.680 on the Gibsonian model

00:19:37.140 and I've been thinking about it

00:19:38.680 for a long time

00:19:39.640 and I've specifically thought about

00:19:42.000 some elaborations on it recently.

00:19:44.640 He talked a lot about affordances,

00:19:47.280 essentially tools and obstacles.

00:19:49.060 Okay, so I'm going to lay out a schema

00:19:50.700 and you tell me what you think about this

00:19:52.460 and I'm hoping that it matches

00:19:55.040 the underlying neurophysiology.

00:19:56.780 I believe that it does.

00:19:58.040 So imagine that we establish an aim.

00:19:59.760 This would be with every act of perception.

00:20:03.540 We establish an aim

00:20:04.840 and then what we see in the world

00:20:06.260 are perceptual systems,

00:20:10.260 are navigation tools.

00:20:13.000 And once we establish a name or a destination,

00:20:16.140 we see a pathway to the destination.

00:20:19.520 We see tools that we could use

00:20:23.600 to afford us movement towards the destination.

00:20:25.580 We see obstacles that could get in the way.

00:20:29.420 So far, that's pretty Gibsonian.

00:20:31.460 We see markers of progress.

00:20:34.320 We see markers of failure.

00:20:37.080 We see allies and foes.

00:20:40.020 That would be more on the human scale.

00:20:42.360 And we see agents of transformation.

00:20:44.840 And the agents of transformation

00:20:46.240 would shift our aims.

00:20:47.580 Because, as you said,

00:20:50.820 what's good changes to some degree situationally.

00:20:54.760 Like it partakes in a hierarchy.

00:20:56.320 Absolutely.

00:20:56.660 But it switches situationally.

00:20:58.540 Absolutely.

00:20:59.260 Yeah.

00:20:59.640 Okay.

00:21:00.240 And so I like the expansion

00:21:02.240 because a human being

00:21:04.960 doesn't really fit the tool category.

00:21:07.760 But then we can perceive

00:21:09.620 human beings who are useful

00:21:12.660 and on our side, so to speak.

00:21:14.220 And we can perceive human beings

00:21:15.820 that are, who operate

00:21:18.520 in a manner that's intent.

00:21:19.740 Exactly.

00:21:20.380 So allies and foes

00:21:21.860 seems to be a nice way

00:21:23.100 of conceptualizing that.

00:21:25.040 Okay.

00:21:25.280 So then I think you can,

00:21:27.100 I spend a lot of time on

00:21:28.680 assessing the neuropsychology of emotion.

00:21:31.860 I was particularly influenced

00:21:33.720 by Jeffrey Gray's work

00:21:35.200 and also by Yach Panksepp.

00:21:37.880 Right.

00:21:38.160 I know their work quite well.

00:21:40.480 Well, so that fits quite nicely

00:21:43.720 in the Gibsonian model

00:21:44.860 as far as I'm concerned

00:21:45.900 because it looks to me like

00:21:47.280 the tools and obstacles,

00:21:49.660 for example,

00:21:50.760 the Gibsonian affordances,

00:21:52.940 while tools produce,

00:21:54.280 the apprehension of a tool

00:21:55.480 produces positive emotion.

00:21:57.660 The apprehension of an obstacle

00:21:59.000 produces negative emotion.

00:22:00.600 And it's the same with allies

00:22:01.980 and, or with, yeah,

00:22:03.540 allies and foes.

00:22:04.780 It's the same with markers forward

00:22:06.720 and markers of progress

00:22:08.240 and markers of failure.

00:22:09.560 So the emotions become

00:22:10.980 calibration systems

00:22:12.520 that mark deviation

00:22:15.040 from the pathway forward.

00:22:17.540 Now, I talked to Carl Friston.

00:22:19.100 Here's something cool.

00:22:20.420 I talked to Carl Friston about this.

00:22:22.440 So I wrote a paper

00:22:25.400 with some of my students

00:22:26.860 about 10 years ago

00:22:27.880 where we tried to relate anxiety

00:22:29.580 to entropy computation.

00:22:33.060 So anxiety seems to mark

00:22:35.920 the multiplication of pathways

00:22:38.120 to a destination.

00:22:39.560 So if you're, right, right.

00:22:42.020 So it marks an increase

00:22:43.320 of entropy.

00:22:44.340 And Friston worked on a model

00:22:45.720 like that.

00:22:46.820 But he added a dimension

00:22:48.460 that I hadn't conceptualized.

00:22:51.080 He said that the reason

00:22:52.700 that dopamine marks

00:22:54.200 positive affect

00:22:56.220 is because positive affect

00:22:57.660 marks a decrease in entropy

00:22:59.360 as you move forward

00:23:00.380 to a destination.

00:23:01.300 So you can actually conceptualize

00:23:04.800 both emotional systems

00:23:06.200 from an entropy perspective.

00:23:08.900 I think this is fine.

00:23:12.600 Not obvious,

00:23:14.100 but on the right tracks

00:23:15.780 all the way along.

00:23:20.120 In my work,

00:23:21.560 I've come to the view

00:23:24.140 that all control

00:23:27.680 is done by emotions

00:23:30.100 in the brain.

00:23:31.480 There's no operating system.

00:23:34.600 The brain is a computer,

00:23:36.820 but it doesn't have

00:23:37.980 a rigid operating system

00:23:39.520 the way a digital computer does.

00:23:41.440 It's all control

00:23:44.420 is done by resting control

00:23:46.640 in a war

00:23:49.360 or a battle,

00:23:51.840 a conflict

00:23:52.640 between different emotional states

00:23:55.740 that arise

00:23:56.480 in our brains.

00:23:57.840 And that's

00:24:00.520 why life is difficult

00:24:04.080 is because

00:24:05.560 easy things

00:24:07.600 are things

00:24:08.060 that are emotionally

00:24:09.220 closer to hand

00:24:11.080 and

00:24:12.140 they lure us away

00:24:15.600 from the better answers.

00:24:17.080 This is whether you're doing

00:24:18.120 science

00:24:19.200 or making a moral decision

00:24:21.440 or trying to solve

00:24:23.100 a math problem.

00:24:25.760 Self-control

00:24:26.880 is the

00:24:28.200 arena

00:24:28.920 of consciousness

00:24:30.220 and

00:24:31.840 emotional

00:24:33.440 valence

00:24:34.520 is what

00:24:35.740 does all the

00:24:36.920 pushing and pulling.

00:24:38.180 Okay, okay.

00:24:38.740 So let me ask you

00:24:39.540 about that

00:24:40.020 and that'll bring us

00:24:40.780 back to the

00:24:41.440 religious question

00:24:42.380 to some degree.

00:24:43.660 So you

00:24:44.080 characterize

00:24:46.500 the landscape

00:24:47.720 of consciousness

00:24:48.520 and

00:24:49.300 correct me

00:24:50.160 if I get any

00:24:50.760 of my summaries

00:24:51.520 of your ideas wrong

00:24:52.540 because I don't

00:24:53.260 want to do that

00:24:53.940 as a battleground

00:24:55.720 between emotions

00:24:56.500 and so I would say

00:24:57.520 do you mean

00:24:58.020 a battleground

00:24:58.640 between emotions

00:24:59.480 or do you mean

00:25:00.060 a battleground

00:25:00.580 between emotions

00:25:01.320 and motivations?

00:25:03.140 Well, motivation

00:25:04.060 is emotion too.

00:25:05.020 Okay, okay, fine.

00:25:05.900 So we're going to

00:25:06.320 put those in the same bin.

00:25:08.500 I've been

00:25:09.000 sort of conceptualizing

00:25:10.600 the difference.

00:25:11.460 To me,

00:25:12.160 it seems

00:25:12.820 practically useful

00:25:14.500 to conceptualize

00:25:15.940 motivations

00:25:16.580 as systems

00:25:18.040 that set aims

00:25:19.100 and emotions

00:25:19.840 as systems

00:25:20.500 that track movement

00:25:21.440 towards aims

00:25:22.260 because there's

00:25:23.560 a bit of a difference.

00:25:24.440 It seems to me

00:25:24.900 there's a bit.

00:25:25.700 Well, you know,

00:25:26.860 it's not a perfect

00:25:27.780 separation.

00:25:28.420 But they interact.

00:25:29.280 They interact

00:25:29.840 all the way.

00:25:31.280 I know, I know.

00:25:31.700 And some emotions

00:25:32.520 seem to set aims

00:25:33.640 like anger,

00:25:34.680 for example,

00:25:35.320 does.

00:25:35.960 Yeah.

00:25:36.180 So, okay, okay.

00:25:37.760 But that's fine.

00:25:38.540 So, are you familiar

00:25:40.300 with Mircea Eliade's work,

00:25:42.020 by the way,

00:25:42.460 The Historian of Religion?

00:25:43.540 No.

00:25:44.580 Well, I know of it,

00:25:46.340 but I'm not familiar

00:25:47.480 with it.

00:25:47.940 Okay, okay.

00:25:48.740 Well, he's stunningly

00:25:50.620 brilliant, by the way.

00:25:51.640 And to the degree

00:25:52.480 that you're interested

00:25:53.260 in the scientific

00:25:54.080 analysis of religion,

00:25:55.120 I can't think of

00:25:55.880 a better source.

00:25:57.200 He's amazingly brilliant.

00:25:58.940 And much of what he says

00:26:00.540 works in alliance

00:26:02.560 with the things

00:26:03.240 we've been talking about.

00:26:04.320 So, let me give you

00:26:05.140 an example.

00:26:05.560 And this also has to do

00:26:07.220 with the issue

00:26:07.720 of self-control.

00:26:09.440 So, Iliade has pointed

00:26:11.400 to a theme

00:26:12.360 that's developed

00:26:13.040 in mythology

00:26:13.800 in many, many

00:26:14.820 different cultures.

00:26:16.300 And it's the war

00:26:17.280 of the gods in heaven.

00:26:19.120 And there are accounts

00:26:20.900 in many, many theogonies,

00:26:23.520 stories of the rise of gods,

00:26:25.520 of a battle

00:26:26.520 between primal forces

00:26:28.320 that results

00:26:29.660 in the emergence

00:26:30.640 of a dominant player.

00:26:34.040 Now, you can imagine

00:26:35.540 that that's...

00:26:36.420 You could imagine

00:26:37.080 anthropologically

00:26:37.960 that that might be

00:26:38.840 a consequence

00:26:39.360 of something like this.

00:26:40.480 So, you imagine

00:26:40.960 that as a culture

00:26:41.820 amalgamates,

00:26:43.760 the gods of the local tribes

00:26:46.460 come together

00:26:47.340 at the same time,

00:26:48.900 and there's a conceptual war.

00:26:51.400 And as the culture

00:26:52.420 integrates,

00:26:53.200 those concepts war

00:26:54.820 at the same time,

00:26:56.060 sometimes in the form

00:26:57.460 of actual physical battles,

00:26:59.220 and there's an amalgamation

00:27:00.960 of conceptualization

00:27:02.320 that parallels

00:27:03.140 the amalgamation

00:27:04.600 of tribal units.

00:27:07.740 And out of that

00:27:08.360 often emerges

00:27:09.740 something approximating

00:27:10.960 a monotheism.

00:27:12.900 And I think

00:27:13.620 that parallels

00:27:14.480 cultural integration,

00:27:16.280 but I also think

00:27:16.960 it parallels

00:27:17.480 cortical maturation.

00:27:19.820 I think there's

00:27:20.420 an impetus

00:27:21.120 towards unification

00:27:22.300 that is equivalent

00:27:24.680 to the battle

00:27:26.780 between emotions

00:27:27.660 and motivational systems,

00:27:29.740 and not their suppression.

00:27:31.380 That's a Freudian model,

00:27:32.980 but their integration

00:27:33.820 towards a higher end.

00:27:35.800 That sounds

00:27:36.660 roughly right.

00:27:37.860 Yes, I think

00:27:38.480 that's what maturation

00:27:40.940 is all about.

00:27:43.300 That's how we become

00:27:44.260 self-controlled.

00:27:45.480 That's how we become

00:27:46.500 autonomous,

00:27:47.500 is by learning

00:27:48.360 how

00:27:49.200 to control

00:27:50.640 our emotions.

00:27:51.340 But it's not as if

00:27:52.380 there's a homunculus

00:27:53.260 in there

00:27:53.820 who's in charge.

00:27:55.220 It's that

00:27:55.740 the emotions

00:27:56.740 themselves

00:27:57.520 negotiate

00:27:59.100 a resolution.

00:28:03.340 Yes, yes.

00:28:04.200 And you can only

00:28:04.640 do one thing

00:28:05.380 at a time.

00:28:06.740 Yeah.

00:28:06.980 And so

00:28:08.320 the,

00:28:10.260 what emerges

00:28:13.360 from all of that

00:28:14.820 noisy struggle

00:28:17.240 in the brain

00:28:18.260 is a

00:28:19.680 more or less

00:28:21.300 unified,

00:28:22.240 more or less

00:28:22.940 self-controlled,

00:28:24.260 more or less

00:28:25.640 reliable

00:28:26.800 agent.

00:28:28.500 That's what

00:28:28.840 free will is.

00:28:30.000 Okay, okay, great.

00:28:31.140 We're gonna,

00:28:31.600 we're having a hard time

00:28:32.480 finding something

00:28:33.020 to disagree about here.

00:28:34.220 So,

00:28:34.780 I'm,

00:28:35.280 I think we'll get to that,

00:28:36.660 but so far,

00:28:37.400 okay, so let me tell you

00:28:38.580 a story.

00:28:39.100 Let me tell you a story.

00:28:40.500 You tell me what you think

00:28:41.420 about this.

00:28:42.140 So,

00:28:43.000 the Egyptians

00:28:44.400 in their

00:28:45.540 cosmology,

00:28:47.140 they put something

00:28:47.900 at the apex.

00:28:50.160 Okay,

00:28:50.660 what they put

00:28:51.340 at the apex

00:28:51.840 was the god

00:28:52.580 Horus.

00:28:53.200 and Horus

00:28:54.840 was represented

00:28:55.580 by an open eye.

00:28:57.760 You know,

00:28:58.040 the famous Egyptian eye.

00:28:59.740 Everyone knows

00:29:00.300 that symbol,

00:29:01.480 right?

00:29:01.900 And Horus

00:29:02.500 was also a falcon.

00:29:05.040 And the reason

00:29:05.620 Horus was a falcon

00:29:06.640 is because

00:29:07.300 raptors have

00:29:08.440 superb vision.

00:29:11.240 So,

00:29:11.840 the,

00:29:12.180 the,

00:29:12.420 the,

00:29:13.740 the Egyptians

00:29:15.640 hypothesized

00:29:16.820 in their mythology,

00:29:17.920 I think this is

00:29:18.520 an emergent hypothesis,

00:29:20.520 that the agent

00:29:21.820 that should rule

00:29:22.740 supreme

00:29:23.460 over the

00:29:24.760 war of states,

00:29:26.200 right?

00:29:26.420 This would be the agent

00:29:27.260 that unifies,

00:29:28.320 was equivalent

00:29:29.120 to the aware eye,

00:29:31.520 right?

00:29:31.680 So,

00:29:31.840 they put attention

00:29:32.540 at the apex,

00:29:33.780 and it's actually

00:29:34.800 voluntary attention.

00:29:36.200 It's even more

00:29:36.840 specific than that.

00:29:38.160 It's voluntary

00:29:38.920 attention

00:29:39.720 to the,

00:29:41.100 what would you say?

00:29:42.680 It's something like,

00:29:43.700 it's voluntary

00:29:44.300 attention to error.

00:29:45.720 That might be a good

00:29:46.500 way of conceptualizing it,

00:29:48.280 right?

00:29:48.940 Yeah.

00:29:49.220 And so,

00:29:49.860 and so,

00:29:50.280 yeah, I get it.

00:29:51.140 Okay, okay, okay.

00:29:52.400 And, and so,

00:29:54.340 all right,

00:29:54.840 so let's turn

00:29:55.620 to your original

00:29:56.240 definition,

00:29:57.420 because there's

00:29:58.280 something,

00:29:58.760 there's something

00:29:59.420 definite there

00:30:00.180 that I'd like to,

00:30:01.360 that I'd like to

00:30:02.620 delve into.

00:30:03.840 So,

00:30:05.460 I,

00:30:06.360 I suggested

00:30:07.240 that the way

00:30:07.780 that I've been

00:30:08.280 conceptualizing

00:30:09.140 the religious enterprise

00:30:10.160 was an analysis

00:30:11.500 of what should

00:30:12.180 be put at the

00:30:13.140 uniting apex.

00:30:14.860 There,

00:30:15.420 that would,

00:30:15.940 that'll tie that in

00:30:16.660 with what we're

00:30:17.120 talking about.

00:30:18.500 You objected

00:30:20.100 to the religious

00:30:20.640 enterprise in your

00:30:21.600 book that

00:30:22.880 you're,

00:30:25.220 the sticking point

00:30:25.940 for you was the

00:30:26.760 idea that there

00:30:27.420 was a supernatural

00:30:28.100 agent whose

00:30:29.940 approval needed

00:30:31.000 to be sought

00:30:31.800 or bargained for.

00:30:33.440 Okay,

00:30:34.240 so in the

00:30:35.440 Old Testament

00:30:36.300 corpus,

00:30:37.040 there's an

00:30:37.440 insistence that

00:30:38.520 the relationship

00:30:39.260 that we have

00:30:40.180 with what's

00:30:40.660 highest is

00:30:41.320 to be

00:30:41.680 conceptualized

00:30:42.400 as a

00:30:42.740 relationship.

00:30:44.360 Right,

00:30:44.520 and so that's

00:30:44.980 starting to

00:30:45.460 wander onto

00:30:46.140 the territory

00:30:46.740 that you're

00:30:47.300 describing.

00:30:48.160 So I've been

00:30:48.680 very curious

00:30:49.440 about why

00:30:50.120 it's

00:30:50.460 conceptualized

00:30:51.240 as a

00:30:51.620 relationship.

00:30:52.820 So let me,

00:30:53.480 let me lay

00:30:55.340 that out for

00:30:55.960 you and you

00:30:56.740 tell me

00:30:57.260 what you think

00:30:58.940 about that.

00:31:00.020 So for example,

00:31:00.960 one way of

00:31:01.480 conceptualizing

00:31:02.320 the God of

00:31:03.260 the Old

00:31:03.580 Testament is

00:31:04.320 that,

00:31:05.280 is,

00:31:06.280 is he's the

00:31:07.360 force that

00:31:08.020 manifests itself

00:31:09.020 as calling.

00:31:11.640 So for example,

00:31:12.800 when Moses is

00:31:13.580 attracted by the

00:31:14.480 burning bush,

00:31:15.440 the burning bush

00:31:15.920 is a very good

00:31:16.480 example of this.

00:31:17.700 So Moses is a 0.74

00:31:18.680 shepherd at the

00:31:20.100 point in the

00:31:20.580 story where the

00:31:21.140 burning bush

00:31:21.660 makes itself

00:31:23.100 manifest.

00:31:23.920 And the

00:31:24.760 burning bush

00:31:25.260 is a symbol,

00:31:26.160 it's like a

00:31:27.060 symbol of the

00:31:27.660 dynamism of

00:31:28.400 life.

00:31:29.260 That's a good

00:31:29.700 way of thinking

00:31:30.220 about it because

00:31:30.920 a tree is a

00:31:33.080 good symbol of

00:31:33.780 life and a

00:31:35.340 burning tree is a

00:31:36.300 tree that's in the

00:31:36.980 process of

00:31:37.580 transformation.

00:31:39.020 And so it's

00:31:39.460 like a,

00:31:39.920 it's like a

00:31:40.600 vision of

00:31:41.100 hypermetabolism.

00:31:42.320 That's a good

00:31:42.720 way of thinking

00:31:43.240 about it.

00:31:43.820 But it's also a

00:31:44.660 combination of

00:31:45.460 being and

00:31:45.940 becoming.

00:31:47.200 And so it's the

00:31:47.700 manifestation of

00:31:48.640 being and

00:31:49.020 becoming.

00:31:49.760 That's very

00:31:50.360 abstract.

00:31:51.020 In any case,

00:31:51.660 what happens to

00:31:52.340 Moses is that

00:31:53.080 he's wandering

00:31:54.040 around and he's

00:31:54.740 by Mount Sinai and

00:31:56.180 something attracts

00:31:57.040 his attention.

00:31:58.540 And he wanders

00:31:59.580 off the beaten

00:32:00.320 path to

00:32:01.000 investigate that.

00:32:03.300 And as he

00:32:04.000 investigates it,

00:32:04.900 he goes into it

00:32:05.780 more deeply.

00:32:07.380 He eventually

00:32:07.820 takes off his

00:32:08.640 shoes, which is a

00:32:09.940 symbol of his

00:32:10.720 willingness to,

00:32:12.300 what would you

00:32:12.760 say, depart from

00:32:13.720 his current

00:32:14.200 journey.

00:32:15.020 It's a good way 1.00

00:32:15.480 of thinking about

00:32:16.160 it.

00:32:16.580 You wear shoes

00:32:17.340 that are appropriate

00:32:18.000 for a journey and

00:32:18.960 shoes mark identity.

00:32:20.280 And to remove your

00:32:21.100 shoes is to 0.79

00:32:21.940 sacrifice your

00:32:23.820 current identity

00:32:24.560 for that pursuit.

00:32:25.720 That's a good way

00:32:26.300 of thinking about it.

00:32:27.160 And as he goes

00:32:28.420 deeper into it,

00:32:29.400 eventually the voice

00:32:30.340 of being and

00:32:31.040 becoming itself

00:32:31.860 speaks to him.

00:32:32.720 And that's what

00:32:33.160 marks his transition

00:32:34.080 to a leader.

00:32:35.660 Now, so God in

00:32:37.120 that story is

00:32:37.800 represented as that

00:32:39.020 which calls to

00:32:40.020 us.

00:32:41.000 And there's an

00:32:41.820 autonomy about that.

00:32:43.260 See, this is also

00:32:43.940 what the psychoanalysts

00:32:45.140 figured out, is that

00:32:46.100 there are spirits,

00:32:48.000 so to speak,

00:32:48.640 operating within us

00:32:49.820 that aren't under

00:32:50.840 our voluntary

00:32:51.480 control, that have

00:32:52.980 the capacity, for

00:32:53.800 example, to grip

00:32:54.680 our attention.

00:32:56.240 And you said,

00:32:56.840 for example, when

00:32:57.660 we respond with

00:32:59.540 the startle

00:33:00.240 response, there's

00:33:01.660 no conscious

00:33:02.380 intentionality in

00:33:03.720 that.

00:33:04.040 We're gripped by

00:33:04.740 something.

00:33:05.840 And the grip of

00:33:07.280 attentional interest

00:33:09.260 that's manifest in

00:33:10.980 calling is

00:33:11.860 represented in the

00:33:13.000 Old Testament as

00:33:14.380 a manifestation of

00:33:15.680 the divine.

00:33:16.980 And so, I'm

00:33:18.260 wondering what you

00:33:18.800 think about that

00:33:19.580 and about that

00:33:22.140 notion of

00:33:22.800 autonomy in

00:33:24.200 interest in

00:33:25.260 calling.

00:33:25.640 I think it's

00:33:27.460 like a

00:33:27.740 manifestation of

00:33:28.740 the unifying

00:33:29.360 spirit.

00:33:30.080 That might be

00:33:30.520 another way of

00:33:31.060 thinking about it.

00:33:31.680 Okay.

00:33:32.720 Well, it strikes

00:33:34.060 me as a very

00:33:35.860 clear example

00:33:37.700 of the

00:33:38.960 excess,

00:33:41.200 I'll use a

00:33:43.780 philosophical word

00:33:44.800 and then explain

00:33:45.540 it,

00:33:46.240 hypostasization

00:33:47.800 of a perfectly

00:33:49.900 real phenomenon.

00:33:50.820 people are

00:33:51.920 always wanting

00:33:53.180 to make a

00:33:54.340 thing, an

00:33:56.560 object, out

00:33:59.520 of a pattern

00:34:00.240 that they see.

00:34:01.200 The pattern is

00:34:02.000 real.

00:34:02.500 You've described

00:34:03.180 it just fine.

00:34:04.420 But it's not

00:34:06.560 an extra thing.

00:34:08.320 It's just the

00:34:09.300 pattern that's

00:34:10.020 there in the

00:34:11.400 way people

00:34:12.460 control themselves

00:34:14.200 and learn to

00:34:14.880 control themselves.

00:34:15.760 This is the

00:34:18.420 leitmotif of

00:34:19.440 my whole

00:34:20.480 career.

00:34:21.440 People think

00:34:23.220 that there's

00:34:24.280 this, what I

00:34:26.420 call the

00:34:26.780 Cartesian

00:34:27.420 theater, the

00:34:29.380 place in the

00:34:30.100 head where

00:34:31.160 this movie

00:34:32.040 happens.

00:34:33.100 There's no

00:34:33.760 such place.

00:34:34.920 There is no

00:34:36.160 Cartesian

00:34:37.040 theater.

00:34:38.340 There's

00:34:38.640 perception,

00:34:40.080 but there's

00:34:40.460 not, perception

00:34:41.660 doesn't consist in

00:34:42.860 re-perceiving

00:34:43.840 something, which

00:34:45.180 is displayed in

00:34:46.960 your brain.

00:34:47.900 That's an

00:34:49.300 extra thing

00:34:50.280 that doesn't

00:34:51.300 exist.

00:34:52.480 And this

00:34:52.900 autonomous

00:34:55.680 God from

00:34:58.240 the Old

00:34:58.600 Testament is

00:34:59.260 another extra

00:35:00.440 thing.

00:35:01.560 It's not

00:35:02.220 needed.

00:35:02.820 It doesn't

00:35:03.280 explain anything.

00:35:04.160 But it's a

00:35:05.500 very human

00:35:06.640 foible to

00:35:08.820 postulate such

00:35:10.520 a thing.

00:35:12.600 Starting a

00:35:13.440 business can

00:35:13.940 be tough, but

00:35:14.760 thanks to

00:35:15.180 Shopify, running

00:35:16.040 your online

00:35:16.560 storefront is

00:35:17.360 easier than

00:35:18.000 ever.

00:35:18.760 Shopify is the

00:35:19.620 global commerce

00:35:20.380 platform that

00:35:20.980 helps you sell at

00:35:21.700 every stage of

00:35:22.400 your business.

00:35:23.260 From the

00:35:23.580 launch your

00:35:23.980 online shop

00:35:24.560 stage, all

00:35:25.200 the way to

00:35:25.520 the did we

00:35:25.980 just hit a

00:35:26.580 million orders

00:35:27.160 stage, Shopify

00:35:28.260 is here to

00:35:28.900 help you grow.

00:35:30.160 Our marketing

00:35:30.580 team uses

00:35:31.160 Shopify every

00:35:31.940 day to sell

00:35:32.500 our merchandise

00:35:32.940 and we love

00:35:33.920 how easy it is

00:35:34.580 to add more

00:35:35.060 items, ship

00:35:36.000 products, and

00:35:36.640 track conversions.

00:35:38.100 With Shopify,

00:35:38.900 customize your

00:35:39.460 online store to

00:35:40.240 your style with

00:35:41.240 flexible templates

00:35:42.060 and powerful

00:35:42.680 tools,

00:35:43.100 alongside an

00:35:44.100 endless list of

00:35:44.960 integrations and

00:35:45.720 third-party apps

00:35:46.500 like on-demand

00:35:47.260 printing, accounting,

00:35:48.500 and chatbots.

00:35:49.640 Shopify helps you

00:35:50.400 turn browsers into

00:35:51.460 buyers with the

00:35:52.120 internet's best

00:35:52.820 converting checkout,

00:35:53.940 up to 36% better

00:35:55.300 compared to other

00:35:56.040 leading e-commerce

00:35:56.840 platforms.

00:35:58.000 No matter how big

00:35:58.760 you want to grow,

00:35:59.620 Shopify gives you

00:36:00.360 everything you need

00:36:01.100 to take control and

00:36:02.140 take your business

00:36:02.860 to the next level.

00:36:04.400 Sign up for a

00:36:05.040 $1 per month trial

00:36:06.080 period at

00:36:06.700 shopify.com

00:36:07.740 slash jbp,

00:36:09.020 all lowercase.

00:36:10.440 Go to

00:36:10.700 shopify.com

00:36:11.580 slash jbp now

00:36:12.740 to grow your

00:36:13.380 business no matter

00:36:14.480 what stage you're

00:36:15.140 in.

00:36:15.700 That's

00:36:16.020 shopify.com

00:36:17.000 slash jbp.

00:36:21.300 Right, it's like

00:36:22.180 the age, so would

00:36:23.460 you also include

00:36:24.860 that criticism in

00:36:26.280 the realm of the

00:36:27.300 hyperactive agency

00:36:29.000 detector, something

00:36:30.220 like that?

00:36:30.720 Is that an idea?

00:36:31.800 Okay, fine, so I

00:36:33.120 understand your

00:36:33.720 objection.

00:36:34.880 Okay, so now let

00:36:37.040 me ask you this.

00:36:37.780 So you said

00:36:38.760 earlier that the

00:36:42.220 good is something

00:36:42.920 that transmutes,

00:36:43.940 let's say, and

00:36:44.420 recedes.

00:36:45.760 And, right, it,

00:36:46.900 okay.

00:36:47.180 That does what?

00:36:48.840 Transmutes and

00:36:49.480 recedes the good.

00:36:50.520 It moves around.

00:36:52.240 It's a moving

00:36:52.580 target.

00:36:52.780 Oh, yeah, yeah,

00:36:53.140 good, yeah.

00:36:53.840 Okay, okay, okay.

00:36:55.020 So let me ask you

00:36:58.060 what you think about

00:36:58.720 this.

00:36:58.940 It's like a

00:36:59.780 summum-bonum

00:37:00.700 explanation for

00:37:02.800 the relationship

00:37:04.000 between the

00:37:04.660 concept of God

00:37:05.680 and that concept.

00:37:07.660 So imagine

00:37:08.520 that, imagine

00:37:09.880 that something

00:37:10.440 calls to you

00:37:11.300 in the manner

00:37:12.060 we just described.

00:37:13.280 I'm not going to

00:37:13.780 hypothesize a God

00:37:15.640 in the way that

00:37:16.260 you objected to.

00:37:18.580 Okay, but you

00:37:19.260 know in your life

00:37:19.960 that there's a

00:37:20.580 sequence of things

00:37:21.640 that call to you.

00:37:23.500 Okay, so now

00:37:24.160 imagine that there's

00:37:25.100 a commonality

00:37:26.160 behind that

00:37:27.000 sequence, that

00:37:28.520 all those things

00:37:29.480 that call to you

00:37:30.120 are pointing you

00:37:30.880 in a direction.

00:37:32.100 Like, the direction

00:37:32.920 I would suggest

00:37:33.680 that they're

00:37:34.040 pointing you in

00:37:34.700 is the direction

00:37:35.900 that unifies

00:37:36.780 that emotional

00:37:37.700 and motivational

00:37:38.460 conflict.

00:37:40.360 You see what I,

00:37:41.240 okay, okay, okay,

00:37:42.860 okay.

00:37:43.080 So that seems

00:37:43.900 to be an okay

00:37:44.580 explanation as well.

00:37:47.120 Because this is

00:37:47.740 actually how the

00:37:48.640 God of the Old 0.99

00:37:49.140 Testament is

00:37:49.740 characterized, right?

00:37:50.800 Is that he is

00:37:52.280 the commonality

00:37:53.320 of callings.

00:37:55.240 And there's

00:37:55.520 another element,

00:37:56.360 too, that emerges,

00:37:57.760 because it's

00:37:58.460 important.

00:37:59.680 You could think

00:38:00.240 about calling

00:38:00.920 as the manifestation

00:38:03.260 of the positive

00:38:05.940 emotions that

00:38:06.720 pull us forward.

00:38:07.780 That's a reasonable

00:38:08.460 way of thinking

00:38:09.080 about it.

00:38:09.840 But the God

00:38:10.700 in the Old

00:38:11.100 Testament is also

00:38:11.940 characterized as

00:38:12.840 conscience, right?

00:38:15.200 And conscience

00:38:15.720 also has that

00:38:16.620 kind of autonomy,

00:38:17.720 right?

00:38:17.980 Because you call

00:38:19.040 yourself out

00:38:20.060 on your misbehavior.

00:38:21.720 And it's

00:38:22.640 something that

00:38:23.540 in some sense

00:38:24.180 is inescapable.

00:38:25.180 Okay, so

00:38:26.840 the dynamism

00:38:28.480 between calling

00:38:29.260 and conscience

00:38:29.880 is one of the

00:38:30.780 most profound

00:38:31.880 ways that the

00:38:32.660 God of the Old 0.99

00:38:33.300 Testament is

00:38:33.920 characterized in

00:38:34.660 the biblical

00:38:35.060 corpus.

00:38:36.680 And it looks

00:38:37.060 to me like

00:38:37.600 it's an attempt

00:38:38.880 to characterize

00:38:39.640 the orienting

00:38:40.620 function of

00:38:41.500 what attracts

00:38:42.740 your attention

00:38:43.360 and what also

00:38:44.020 keeps you on

00:38:44.680 the pathway.

00:38:45.920 It's something

00:38:46.640 like that.

00:38:48.560 So is there

00:38:49.660 any of that

00:38:50.140 that you would

00:38:51.060 object to?

00:38:51.700 No, no, I

00:38:54.240 think you're

00:38:57.000 making a

00:38:59.740 fairly easy

00:39:02.100 topic more

00:39:04.440 difficult than

00:39:05.140 it has to be,

00:39:06.020 but it's an

00:39:07.040 interesting way

00:39:07.800 of doing it.

00:39:08.820 And I am

00:39:11.220 happy to grant

00:39:12.060 you that

00:39:12.560 interpretation

00:39:13.400 of it's a

00:39:15.920 way of reading

00:39:16.560 the Old

00:39:17.160 Testament where

00:39:17.960 it makes a

00:39:18.480 little more

00:39:18.900 sense than

00:39:21.640 if it was

00:39:22.340 taken literally.

00:39:24.240 All right, so

00:39:25.120 I'm going to

00:39:25.940 go at this

00:39:27.980 from the

00:39:29.080 same issue

00:39:29.620 from a

00:39:30.000 slightly different

00:39:30.620 perspective because

00:39:31.520 I want to

00:39:32.060 zero in on

00:39:32.740 this issue of

00:39:33.360 relationship because

00:39:34.840 I think that's

00:39:35.740 the most

00:39:36.160 fundamental

00:39:36.820 stumbling

00:39:37.400 block that

00:39:40.400 would be

00:39:41.020 useful for

00:39:41.540 us to

00:39:41.880 discuss.

00:39:42.480 And I

00:39:42.780 think it's

00:39:43.100 the strangest

00:39:43.980 element of

00:39:45.320 the religious

00:39:46.320 endeavor.

00:39:47.480 We've

00:39:47.880 established a

00:39:48.540 certain amount

00:39:49.020 of common

00:39:50.160 ground in

00:39:50.880 relationship to

00:39:51.720 the idea of

00:39:52.200 a hierarchy

00:39:52.740 of value or

00:39:53.420 a hierarchy

00:39:53.800 of good.

00:39:54.600 So I'm

00:39:54.900 just going to

00:39:55.180 leave that

00:39:55.560 sit for a

00:39:56.120 minute, but

00:39:56.440 I want to

00:39:57.380 investigate the

00:39:58.320 relationship issue

00:39:59.440 because it

00:40:00.540 is key to,

00:40:02.500 as you point

00:40:03.560 out in your

00:40:04.100 book, it is

00:40:04.680 key to what

00:40:05.240 people generally

00:40:05.920 understand, at

00:40:07.280 least as part of

00:40:08.020 the religious

00:40:08.440 enterprise.

00:40:09.680 And it's

00:40:10.140 also the

00:40:11.320 insistence that's

00:40:12.700 probably most

00:40:13.460 susceptible to

00:40:14.360 the objections

00:40:15.580 that you've

00:40:16.160 put forth, for

00:40:17.340 example, with

00:40:17.940 regards to the

00:40:18.620 hyperactive agency

00:40:19.540 detector.

00:40:20.920 And so I've

00:40:21.400 been very

00:40:21.740 curious about

00:40:22.520 why the

00:40:23.740 relationship with

00:40:24.840 what's good is

00:40:26.360 conceptualized so

00:40:27.520 often as a

00:40:28.960 relationship, as

00:40:29.920 an actual

00:40:30.340 relationship.

00:40:31.720 So let me

00:40:33.640 walk through

00:40:34.840 something and

00:40:35.480 you tell me

00:40:36.020 what you think

00:40:36.460 about this.

00:40:37.100 So I've been

00:40:38.740 conceptualizing

00:40:39.640 thought as

00:40:41.680 secularized

00:40:43.200 prayer.

00:40:44.840 And the

00:40:45.200 reason I'm

00:40:45.700 doing that, I

00:40:46.300 suppose to some

00:40:47.000 degree, is

00:40:47.540 anthropological,

00:40:48.500 because I think

00:40:49.220 that prayer

00:40:50.140 preceded thought

00:40:52.040 developmentally.

00:40:53.500 I think that's

00:40:54.120 what the

00:40:54.520 historical evidence

00:40:57.080 would suggest.

00:40:57.860 We haven't been

00:40:58.380 thinking rationally

00:40:59.460 for very long.

00:41:00.840 It's perhaps

00:41:01.560 several thousand

00:41:02.360 years.

00:41:03.240 We've been

00:41:03.680 thinking religiously

00:41:04.660 for much longer

00:41:05.440 than that.

00:41:06.280 And I'm not

00:41:06.860 trying to

00:41:07.280 establish a

00:41:08.460 qualitative primacy

00:41:09.940 here.

00:41:10.300 I'm trying to

00:41:11.320 account for the

00:41:11.860 facts.

00:41:12.980 So I'm going to

00:41:14.080 outline what I

00:41:14.860 think we do

00:41:15.500 when we think,

00:41:17.000 and I'd like you

00:41:18.180 to tell me what

00:41:18.960 you think about

00:41:19.600 the outline.

00:41:20.780 Okay.

00:41:21.360 So, okay.

00:41:23.260 Well, so the

00:41:23.700 first thing I

00:41:24.380 would say is

00:41:24.980 that thoughts

00:41:26.640 orient us in a

00:41:27.760 manner that's

00:41:28.260 akin to our

00:41:29.040 perceptions and

00:41:29.840 our emotions.

00:41:30.400 So they're of

00:41:31.600 the same

00:41:32.100 enterprise.

00:41:32.860 We use

00:41:33.720 thoughts to

00:41:34.380 move us

00:41:34.920 towards our

00:41:35.620 goals and

00:41:36.320 then to

00:41:37.100 transform our

00:41:37.820 goals.

00:41:38.620 Yeah.

00:41:38.980 We do.

00:41:39.440 It's the

00:41:39.860 abstract.

00:41:41.020 Okay, okay,

00:41:41.720 good.

00:41:42.060 So, and

00:41:42.920 then I would

00:41:43.680 say that

00:41:44.620 thoughts make

00:41:45.380 themselves

00:41:45.860 manifest in

00:41:46.780 relationship to

00:41:47.600 our aim,

00:41:48.960 right, just

00:41:49.280 like our

00:41:49.620 perceptions do.

00:41:50.900 And so

00:41:51.240 our thoughts

00:41:52.400 are defined

00:41:52.960 at least in

00:41:53.520 part by our

00:41:54.080 aim.

00:41:54.520 So this is

00:41:56.080 what I think

00:41:57.380 I do when

00:41:58.520 I think.

00:41:59.600 So the

00:42:00.000 first thing I

00:42:00.600 do when I

00:42:01.040 think is

00:42:01.520 admit that I

00:42:02.340 don't know

00:42:02.760 something.

00:42:04.280 So I come

00:42:05.220 to the

00:42:05.760 process in

00:42:06.660 humility and

00:42:08.480 I admit I

00:42:09.200 have a

00:42:09.560 problem.

00:42:11.000 It's like,

00:42:11.460 here's something

00:42:11.980 I don't

00:42:12.360 understand.

00:42:12.960 It could be

00:42:13.240 something I'm

00:42:13.600 curious about.

00:42:14.220 It could be

00:42:14.560 something that's

00:42:15.120 bothering me,

00:42:15.860 but I have

00:42:16.260 a problem.

00:42:17.860 And I also

00:42:18.400 admit that I

00:42:19.220 have the

00:42:19.620 problem, and

00:42:20.580 I presume that

00:42:21.880 there's an

00:42:22.320 answer, and I

00:42:23.600 presume that if

00:42:24.160 I get the

00:42:24.600 answer, that

00:42:25.080 would be

00:42:25.380 good.

00:42:26.820 And then I

00:42:27.340 would say I

00:42:28.040 do something

00:42:28.740 that you

00:42:29.400 could describe.

00:42:31.420 I allow

00:42:33.020 myself to

00:42:34.860 receive a

00:42:35.520 thought.

00:42:35.940 It's something

00:42:36.340 like that.

00:42:36.860 Now I could

00:42:37.280 say I

00:42:38.220 think, or I

00:42:39.040 could say I

00:42:39.700 think something

00:42:40.260 up, but I

00:42:40.760 don't really

00:42:41.080 like that

00:42:41.500 formulation because

00:42:42.440 I don't

00:42:42.820 think, I

00:42:44.320 don't think

00:42:44.800 it's a good

00:42:45.560 description of

00:42:46.260 actually what

00:42:46.780 happens.

00:42:47.340 What happens

00:42:47.880 is that I

00:42:48.900 posit a

00:42:49.500 problem, and

00:42:51.200 answers appear

00:42:54.160 to me.

00:42:56.740 That's good.

00:42:57.700 I'm happy with

00:42:58.980 that.

00:42:59.200 It reminds me of

00:43:00.260 Plato in the

00:43:01.540 Theatetus, where

00:43:03.340 he says knowledge

00:43:05.480 is like the

00:43:07.780 birds in a

00:43:08.560 giant aviary.

00:43:09.800 and you've

00:43:11.200 got all these

00:43:11.800 birds.

00:43:13.140 The trick is,

00:43:14.120 can you get

00:43:14.560 them to come

00:43:15.100 when you

00:43:15.440 call?

00:43:17.940 And so

00:43:20.280 you've got

00:43:21.220 all this

00:43:21.780 knowledge that

00:43:24.860 you've acquired,

00:43:26.300 and the

00:43:29.080 hard part is

00:43:30.120 getting it to

00:43:30.900 come when it's

00:43:31.540 needed.

00:43:33.380 And how

00:43:34.440 often do we

00:43:35.900 smite our 0.75

00:43:36.540 forehead and

00:43:37.140 say, oh, I

00:43:38.160 knew that all

00:43:38.780 along, why

00:43:39.400 didn't I

00:43:39.860 think of

00:43:40.200 it?

00:43:42.100 That's when we

00:43:43.360 find that there

00:43:44.200 was something we

00:43:44.840 knew that didn't

00:43:46.200 get used by us

00:43:47.600 at the appropriate

00:43:48.360 moment.

00:43:49.240 And the best

00:43:50.320 way to make

00:43:52.740 the new

00:43:54.360 thoughts occur

00:43:55.140 to you is

00:43:57.140 to be in a

00:43:58.540 discussion like

00:43:59.260 we're in right

00:44:00.220 now.

00:44:00.720 It's to get

00:44:01.840 another mind to

00:44:03.440 help you, and

00:44:04.120 we stimulate each

00:44:05.240 other's minds

00:44:05.980 and dredge

00:44:07.720 up new

00:44:08.820 corners of

00:44:09.740 the other

00:44:10.140 person's

00:44:10.700 minds, which

00:44:11.300 may have

00:44:11.840 interesting ways

00:44:13.460 of putting

00:44:13.860 things that

00:44:14.860 we hadn't

00:44:15.260 quite thought

00:44:15.800 of before.

00:44:16.360 We thought,

00:44:16.540 oh, that's a

00:44:17.480 good way of

00:44:17.900 putting it.

00:44:18.300 Yeah, I get

00:44:18.740 that.

00:44:22.020 Descartes' big

00:44:22.840 arrow was in

00:44:24.480 being solitary,

00:44:27.640 trusting to his

00:44:29.000 own mind and

00:44:30.120 trying to get

00:44:30.960 his clear and

00:44:31.820 distinct ideas

00:44:32.900 ever clearer and

00:44:33.900 more distinct.

00:44:35.360 And the only way

00:44:36.320 he could trust

00:44:37.020 them, he

00:44:37.300 thought, is if

00:44:37.880 he posited a

00:44:39.580 benevolent, all-knowing

00:44:41.080 God.

00:44:42.320 We don't need

00:44:43.120 that.

00:44:43.780 What we need is

00:44:44.860 each other.

00:44:45.420 So, okay, so

00:44:47.240 let me riff on

00:44:48.360 that for a

00:44:48.940 minute.

00:44:49.260 So, there's a

00:44:50.320 gospel insistence

00:44:51.780 that where two

00:44:53.020 or more are

00:44:53.660 gathered in the

00:44:55.020 name of the

00:44:55.500 Logos, that

00:44:56.220 spirit makes

00:44:57.020 itself manifest.

00:44:58.180 That's a good

00:44:58.640 way of thinking

00:44:59.220 about it.

00:45:00.560 And so, imagine

00:45:02.120 that what we're

00:45:02.700 trying to do in

00:45:04.020 this conversation

00:45:04.860 and what we

00:45:05.560 hopefully are

00:45:06.120 doing to some

00:45:06.840 degree is to

00:45:07.760 stumble forward

00:45:09.300 somewhat less

00:45:10.440 blindly toward the

00:45:11.760 truth.

00:45:13.340 Okay, so that's

00:45:14.080 dependent on our

00:45:14.900 aim.

00:45:16.880 And if our

00:45:17.640 aim is at the

00:45:18.320 truth, then the

00:45:19.500 spirit that makes

00:45:20.380 that journey

00:45:21.000 possible, that's

00:45:22.480 how the religious,

00:45:23.200 that would be the

00:45:23.720 religious formulation.

00:45:24.720 The spirit that

00:45:25.340 makes that journey

00:45:26.100 possible will make

00:45:27.100 itself manifest in

00:45:28.840 the space defined

00:45:29.800 by our interaction.

00:45:31.100 It would seem to

00:45:31.760 me that would be a

00:45:32.420 good definition of

00:45:33.320 science, too.

00:45:34.980 I would agree

00:45:36.240 with that.

00:45:36.820 We can leave the

00:45:38.680 religion right out 0.99

00:45:39.600 of it and say it

00:45:41.080 is the organization

00:45:43.020 of science

00:45:44.700 where trust is

00:45:48.560 assumed but

00:45:50.140 tested, where

00:45:53.700 people of

00:45:54.980 different opinions

00:45:56.420 come together and

00:45:58.340 sort things out

00:45:59.160 constructively.

00:46:00.620 And that's the

00:46:01.700 best test of all

00:46:03.480 of truth.

00:46:04.840 You said, for

00:46:05.720 example, that they

00:46:06.680 come together in

00:46:07.840 trust.

00:46:08.220 So that I

00:46:13.420 would say, so

00:46:14.320 that there's a

00:46:14.840 precondition for

00:46:15.800 the scientific

00:46:16.480 inquiry to occur

00:46:17.940 even at the

00:46:18.760 level of dialogue.

00:46:21.340 And the

00:46:21.980 precondition is

00:46:22.820 that we can

00:46:23.520 trust, what are

00:46:24.200 we trusting, do

00:46:25.260 you think?

00:46:25.580 Are we trusting,

00:46:26.780 what are we, are

00:46:27.380 we, are we, in

00:46:28.280 that situation, what

00:46:29.440 is it that allows

00:46:30.160 for trust?

00:46:30.900 It's the good

00:46:34.260 will that we

00:46:36.380 normally assume

00:46:39.200 in a civilized

00:46:40.740 world.

00:46:41.820 When you and I

00:46:42.840 walk down the

00:46:43.980 street, we

00:46:46.780 assume that the

00:46:48.800 people that we

00:46:51.000 see are all

00:46:51.580 around us, most

00:46:52.560 of whom are total

00:46:53.320 strangers to us,

00:46:54.360 we assume that

00:46:55.240 they don't mean us

00:46:56.080 any harm.

00:46:58.480 We, we,

00:46:59.680 I like the

00:47:02.300 way Paul

00:47:02.820 Seabright has

00:47:04.200 put this in

00:47:05.840 his book,

00:47:06.640 The Company

00:47:08.500 of Strangers.

00:47:10.260 If you put a

00:47:11.800 whole lot of

00:47:12.300 unrelated chimpanzees

00:47:13.880 in a large room

00:47:14.740 together, they

00:47:15.360 would be

00:47:15.900 terrified.

00:47:17.940 They would be

00:47:18.640 screaming and

00:47:19.780 they would be

00:47:21.600 unable to sit

00:47:23.360 there calmly.

00:47:25.000 And I

00:47:25.300 sometimes point

00:47:25.980 this out when

00:47:26.560 I'm in a large

00:47:27.320 auditorium and

00:47:28.260 there's hundreds

00:47:29.100 of people.

00:47:29.680 none of them

00:47:30.460 related.

00:47:31.800 I said, is

00:47:32.780 anybody here

00:47:33.440 scared to

00:47:33.940 death?

00:47:34.340 No, no, no,

00:47:35.520 we're not.

00:47:36.140 We're, we

00:47:37.240 trust each

00:47:38.020 other.

00:47:38.920 That human

00:47:39.640 trust is the

00:47:42.400 key to

00:47:45.000 civilization and

00:47:47.840 to science.

00:47:49.420 And it's under

00:47:51.240 attack right

00:47:51.960 now with

00:47:54.320 artificial

00:47:55.280 intelligence and

00:47:57.040 misrepresentation.

00:47:59.680 and the

00:48:00.520 technologies of

00:48:03.200 misrepresentation,

00:48:04.840 which are

00:48:05.900 eroding trust

00:48:07.700 in a very

00:48:09.540 serious way.

00:48:12.060 When a woman 0.99

00:48:12.960 experiences an

00:48:13.880 unplanned pregnancy,

00:48:15.100 she often feels

00:48:15.860 alone and afraid.

00:48:17.440 Too often, her

00:48:18.140 first response is to

00:48:19.200 seek out an

00:48:19.700 abortion, because 0.99

00:48:20.680 that's what left

00:48:21.600 leaning institutions

00:48:22.420 have conditioned

00:48:23.220 her to do.

00:48:24.260 But because of the

00:48:25.180 generosity of

00:48:25.940 listeners like you,

00:48:26.800 that search may

00:48:27.840 lead her to a

00:48:28.480 pre-born network

00:48:29.220 clinic, where by

00:48:30.380 the grace of God,

00:48:31.280 she'll choose life,

00:48:32.420 not just for her

00:48:33.100 baby, but for

00:48:34.140 herself.

00:48:35.160 Pre-born offers

00:48:35.860 God's love and

00:48:36.700 compassion to

00:48:37.360 hurting women and

00:48:38.280 provides a free

00:48:38.880 ultrasound to

00:48:39.600 introduce them to

00:48:40.400 the life growing

00:48:41.160 inside them.

00:48:42.300 This combination

00:48:43.020 helps women to

00:48:43.880 choose life, and

00:48:45.200 it's how pre-born

00:48:45.860 saves 200 babies

00:48:47.140 every single day.

00:48:48.660 Thanks to the

00:48:49.220 Daily Wire's

00:48:49.780 partnership with

00:48:50.480 pre-born, we're

00:48:51.240 able to make our

00:48:51.880 powerful documentary,

00:48:53.340 Choosing Life,

00:48:54.380 available to all on

00:48:55.480 Daily Wire Plus.

00:48:56.880 Join us in

00:48:57.660 thanking pre-born for

00:48:58.660 bringing this

00:48:59.200 important work out

00:49:00.180 from behind our

00:49:00.860 paywall, and

00:49:01.780 consider making a

00:49:02.620 donation today to

00:49:03.500 support their

00:49:03.980 life-saving work.

00:49:05.480 You can sponsor one

00:49:06.400 ultrasound for just

00:49:07.300 $28.

00:49:08.320 If you have the

00:49:09.080 means, you can

00:49:09.660 sponsor pre-born's

00:49:10.520 entire network for a

00:49:11.760 day for $5,000.

00:49:13.520 Make a donation

00:49:14.260 today, just dial

00:49:15.360 pound 250 and say

00:49:16.560 the keyword baby.

00:49:17.800 That's pound 250

00:49:18.860 baby.

00:49:19.840 Or go to

00:49:20.420 pre-born.com

00:49:21.440 slash Jordan.

00:49:22.560 That's pre-born.com

00:49:23.940 slash Jordan.

00:49:25.480 Okay, so I

00:49:30.640 use the same

00:49:31.300 example, by the

00:49:32.080 way, when I'm

00:49:32.560 talking to large

00:49:34.140 audiences, and the

00:49:35.300 chimpanzee example

00:49:36.300 as well.

00:49:37.540 And so you

00:49:38.480 said that the

00:49:39.880 trust that makes

00:49:40.680 even a scientific

00:49:41.580 conversation possible

00:49:43.220 is the trust in

00:49:45.060 mutual goodwill.

00:49:46.700 Right?

00:49:47.360 Okay, so, all

00:49:48.420 right, so I want

00:49:49.340 to relate that

00:49:50.080 idea of goodwill

00:49:51.060 back to something

00:49:51.800 that we talked

00:49:52.380 about earlier.

00:49:53.020 So, I think

00:49:55.160 that if the

00:49:57.040 battle between

00:49:57.760 emotional and

00:49:58.500 motivational systems

00:49:59.860 occurs optimally,

00:50:01.960 it produces a

00:50:03.500 unity of spirit

00:50:04.580 that makes that

00:50:06.480 trust possible.

00:50:07.860 That's what you do

00:50:08.480 when you socialize

00:50:09.280 a child.

00:50:09.960 Like, children

00:50:11.060 are really socialized

00:50:12.260 between the age of

00:50:13.100 two and four,

00:50:13.740 right?

00:50:13.920 They're pretty

00:50:14.460 egocentric and

00:50:16.320 temporally bounded

00:50:17.280 at the age of two.

00:50:18.220 They kind of want

00:50:20.320 whatever their

00:50:21.560 motivational system

00:50:22.720 wants right now

00:50:24.720 and to hell with 0.97

00:50:25.820 the consequences.

00:50:26.700 That's the definition

00:50:27.920 of a two-year-old.

00:50:28.700 And there's some

00:50:29.400 wonderful things

00:50:30.060 about that.

00:50:30.600 And then as they

00:50:31.680 mature and as their

00:50:32.720 cortex matures,

00:50:34.260 those systems

00:50:34.960 integrate.

00:50:36.460 And if that

00:50:37.280 integration takes

00:50:38.120 place, then you

00:50:39.060 have the presence

00:50:40.840 of an overarching

00:50:42.300 structure that

00:50:43.280 enables that trust

00:50:44.380 to be made

00:50:47.020 manifest.

00:50:47.680 A child will

00:50:48.260 learn to take

00:50:48.760 turns, for

00:50:49.380 example.

00:50:50.560 That's why I say

00:50:51.320 that free will

00:50:52.020 is an achievement,

00:50:53.540 not a metaphysical

00:50:54.920 endowment.

00:50:56.620 You have to

00:50:57.140 become, you have

00:50:58.660 to develop free

00:51:00.020 will.

00:51:00.560 And the reason

00:51:01.820 why we don't

00:51:04.060 hold children

00:51:05.140 responsible for

00:51:06.320 misdeeds is

00:51:08.480 they haven't

00:51:09.280 developed the

00:51:10.340 self-control.

00:51:11.640 They haven't

00:51:12.220 developed the

00:51:13.220 sort of

00:51:13.980 trustworthy,

00:51:15.060 reliable autonomy

00:51:16.120 that we demand

00:51:17.520 of each other.

00:51:19.480 The price we

00:51:20.560 pay in

00:51:23.680 self-control

00:51:24.560 is a price,

00:51:26.240 it's the best

00:51:26.780 bargain on the

00:51:27.520 planet.

00:51:28.400 It means that we

00:51:29.180 can walk around

00:51:29.940 without fearing for

00:51:30.880 our lives all the

00:51:31.780 time.

00:51:33.580 Right, right,

00:51:34.320 right.

00:51:34.780 Okay, okay.

00:51:35.540 Well, so, all

00:51:36.600 right, so let me

00:51:37.140 make a leap here

00:51:38.200 because I'm

00:51:39.620 increasingly inclined

00:51:41.220 to believe that

00:51:42.320 the divide between

00:51:44.520 atheism and science

00:51:45.980 is an illusion.

00:51:47.960 And I know that's

00:51:49.180 a huge leap and

00:51:49.920 I'll backfill it.

00:51:51.480 But, you know,

00:51:52.660 the notion of the

00:51:54.260 logos that emerges

00:51:55.580 as the biblical

00:51:57.040 corpus proceeds

00:51:58.380 is, as far as I

00:52:00.820 can tell, it's

00:52:01.440 identical to what

00:52:02.500 you just described.

00:52:04.020 So the notion is

00:52:05.360 that peaceful

00:52:07.340 harmony and unity

00:52:08.540 emerges when

00:52:10.160 people aim up,

00:52:12.180 so they're of

00:52:12.900 goodwill.

00:52:13.720 The emphasis on

00:52:14.560 hospitality in the

00:52:15.560 Old Testament, for

00:52:16.300 example, is a

00:52:16.940 reflection of that.

00:52:17.760 It's hospitality as

00:52:18.700 the basis of

00:52:19.400 society.

00:52:20.200 It was a sacred

00:52:21.300 requirement to be

00:52:23.740 hospitable.

00:52:25.680 People unify

00:52:27.160 themselves in

00:52:28.860 their upward

00:52:29.600 aim and then

00:52:30.940 they participate

00:52:32.380 in truthful

00:52:33.300 dialogue.

00:52:34.200 That's dialogos.

00:52:35.380 That's the

00:52:35.780 exchange of

00:52:36.600 redemptive

00:52:37.140 information.

00:52:38.180 And that's the

00:52:38.720 foundation.

00:52:39.220 Okay, that's

00:52:40.060 the spirit that

00:52:41.440 in principle

00:52:42.280 emerges in the

00:52:44.620 biblical corpus as

00:52:45.920 that which is to

00:52:46.920 be put in the

00:52:47.680 highest place.

00:52:48.420 Now, let me tell

00:52:49.280 you why there's,

00:52:49.960 if you wouldn't

00:52:50.420 mind, I'll explain

00:52:51.480 why that's

00:52:52.160 conceptualized as

00:52:53.120 relationship.

00:52:54.600 Okay.

00:52:55.520 So imagine,

00:52:56.780 okay, so, well,

00:52:57.700 okay, so imagine

00:52:58.540 that I'm, maybe I

00:53:00.360 have a problem with

00:53:01.240 someone, right?

00:53:02.320 And so my

00:53:04.160 relationship with

00:53:05.520 them is choppy.

00:53:09.220 And it's

00:53:10.320 degenerating into

00:53:11.340 mistrust.

00:53:12.440 And you already

00:53:12.920 pointed out, we

00:53:13.680 know what happens

00:53:14.420 when the default

00:53:15.940 presumption between

00:53:17.080 people deteriorates

00:53:18.240 into mistrust.

00:53:19.240 That's not good.

00:53:20.900 Okay, so now I see

00:53:21.940 this mistrust

00:53:22.640 emerging and I

00:53:23.580 think, well, I

00:53:24.060 would like to

00:53:24.540 rectify that.

00:53:25.960 And so then I

00:53:26.540 can go, let's

00:53:28.340 say, meditate on

00:53:29.340 that.

00:53:29.900 How would I have

00:53:30.740 to reshape my

00:53:31.660 perceptions and my

00:53:32.720 actions, my

00:53:33.500 patterns of

00:53:34.040 attention, so

00:53:35.260 that a pathway to

00:53:36.760 harmony and

00:53:38.120 trust could be

00:53:39.540 reestablished with

00:53:40.380 this person?

00:53:41.040 You can imagine

00:53:41.600 asking yourself

00:53:42.420 that.

00:53:43.200 That's a particular

00:53:44.080 kind of aim.

00:53:45.540 And as a

00:53:46.080 consequence, I'm

00:53:47.060 likely, not

00:53:47.940 necessarily, but

00:53:48.820 I'm likely to

00:53:49.680 get a revelation

00:53:51.380 of some pathway

00:53:52.920 forward.

00:53:54.060 Does that seem

00:53:54.580 reasonable?

00:53:55.920 Revelation?

00:53:58.180 Well, I don't

00:53:59.860 know how else to

00:54:00.620 describe it.

00:54:01.980 It might occur

00:54:02.700 to you.

00:54:03.140 An idea

00:54:03.780 related.

00:54:04.120 An idea

00:54:04.900 might occur

00:54:05.500 to you.

00:54:06.660 Yes.

00:54:08.820 I think

00:54:10.980 those, I'm

00:54:13.060 not trying to

00:54:14.260 force this, but

00:54:15.400 I think those

00:54:15.920 are the same

00:54:16.460 concepts.

00:54:17.640 Revelation is

00:54:18.400 something that

00:54:18.820 reveals itself.

00:54:20.320 Now, I know

00:54:20.740 the problem is it

00:54:22.060 begs the source,

00:54:23.420 but I'm not too

00:54:24.180 concerned about

00:54:24.820 that at the

00:54:25.300 moment.

00:54:27.040 But that, so

00:54:28.140 here's an

00:54:30.540 idea.

00:54:30.840 the thought

00:54:33.960 that will make

00:54:34.560 itself manifest

00:54:35.320 to you is

00:54:35.920 dependent on

00:54:36.540 the aim of

00:54:37.120 your request.

00:54:39.580 Yeah.

00:54:41.200 Independently.

00:54:41.900 I mean,

00:54:42.620 indirectly, yes.

00:54:46.060 Okay, okay,

00:54:46.860 fine.

00:54:47.220 Okay, so

00:54:47.780 what I see

00:54:50.480 happening time

00:54:51.840 and time again

00:54:52.520 in the biblical

00:54:53.720 stories, and I've

00:54:54.580 looked at them in

00:54:55.320 great detail,

00:54:56.760 is that

00:54:57.340 God is

00:55:00.520 conceptualized

00:55:01.460 as that which

00:55:02.360 you can call

00:55:03.180 upon, that

00:55:04.720 which will

00:55:05.860 respond if

00:55:07.560 you're aiming

00:55:08.300 upward in

00:55:09.120 something approximating

00:55:10.580 love and you're

00:55:11.520 motivated by the

00:55:12.400 truth.

00:55:13.040 That's a

00:55:13.460 definition.

00:55:15.020 Like, it's not

00:55:15.440 an insistence

00:55:16.380 about some

00:55:16.980 extra human

00:55:17.660 agent, not

00:55:18.320 precisely.

00:55:19.180 It's a

00:55:19.680 definition of

00:55:21.120 how to progress

00:55:21.860 forward appropriately.

00:55:23.780 And this is

00:55:24.560 why the

00:55:27.000 stories that

00:55:28.180 are sequenced

00:55:28.880 in the

00:55:29.240 biblical corpus

00:55:30.100 are, what

00:55:31.280 would you say,

00:55:32.200 they're attempts

00:55:32.920 to characterize

00:55:33.800 that spirit,

00:55:36.040 like the

00:55:36.780 spirit that

00:55:37.400 should be

00:55:37.820 called upon

00:55:38.540 to set

00:55:39.460 things right.

00:55:41.000 And it's

00:55:41.480 the reason

00:55:41.980 it's conceptualized

00:55:43.040 as a

00:55:43.320 relationship,

00:55:43.940 this gets to

00:55:44.480 the point

00:55:44.860 precisely, is

00:55:45.560 because it

00:55:46.720 is something

00:55:47.460 that you can

00:55:48.240 call upon

00:55:49.320 that will

00:55:51.220 reveal itself.

00:55:52.420 And you do

00:55:53.100 that as if

00:55:53.720 it's in a

00:55:54.120 relationship.

00:55:54.900 Like, it's

00:55:55.400 not much,

00:55:56.060 now you

00:55:56.460 pointed to

00:55:58.060 Descartes'

00:55:58.780 error, so to

00:55:59.520 speak, you

00:55:59.940 said that he

00:56:00.420 kind of got

00:56:00.860 lost in his

00:56:01.500 solipsism and

00:56:02.640 that he needed

00:56:03.160 other people to

00:56:03.940 correct his

00:56:04.460 thinking.

00:56:05.060 That's fine with

00:56:05.880 me because I

00:56:06.520 think that we

00:56:07.140 can call upon

00:56:08.460 each other to

00:56:09.400 keep us moving

00:56:11.040 forward on the

00:56:11.760 appropriate path,

00:56:12.640 but we also do

00:56:13.580 that in internal

00:56:14.500 dialogue, right?

00:56:16.000 And that the

00:56:17.660 question is, what

00:56:18.620 is it that you're

00:56:19.420 calling upon when

00:56:20.760 you have the

00:56:22.620 pathway forward

00:56:23.520 to a new

00:56:24.080 destination

00:56:24.700 revealed?

00:56:25.700 That's what's

00:56:26.280 characterized as

00:56:27.120 God in the

00:56:27.720 Old and New

00:56:28.300 Testaments.

00:56:29.200 Well, it

00:56:30.160 seems to me

00:56:30.700 we've improved

00:56:31.500 on that.

00:56:34.920 And we

00:56:35.720 call it

00:56:36.360 secular

00:56:37.560 science,

00:56:38.880 including

00:56:39.340 philosophy,

00:56:40.280 including

00:56:40.680 what universities

00:56:43.880 are supposed to

00:56:44.980 do and so

00:56:45.600 forth.

00:56:45.900 we are assuming

00:56:50.020 goodwill and

00:56:52.460 trust, and

00:56:53.900 we're letting

00:56:55.040 freedom,

00:56:57.060 academic freedom

00:56:58.140 reign, and

00:57:03.320 we're allowing

00:57:04.080 ideas in that

00:57:06.680 are welcome as

00:57:09.720 long as they

00:57:10.680 are presented

00:57:12.860 in a spirit

00:57:14.980 of, I

00:57:17.820 don't get to

00:57:18.360 lay down the

00:57:19.020 law, here's

00:57:21.360 my idea, and

00:57:23.120 if somebody in

00:57:24.440 the group has

00:57:25.660 an idea that the

00:57:26.640 others don't

00:57:27.640 accept, then

00:57:29.280 the responsibility

00:57:31.020 to get the

00:57:32.060 others to accept

00:57:32.900 that falls

00:57:33.500 really on the

00:57:34.540 person whose

00:57:35.160 idea it is.

00:57:35.960 and anybody

00:57:37.540 who says,

00:57:38.900 well, my

00:57:39.940 religion says

00:57:41.820 that this

00:57:43.200 just has to

00:57:44.060 be this way,

00:57:45.440 and there's no

00:57:46.140 argument about

00:57:46.820 it, we say,

00:57:47.520 well, I guess

00:57:48.240 you're disqualified.

00:57:49.780 I'm sorry, you're

00:57:50.600 disabled.

00:57:51.420 You can't

00:57:52.020 participate in

00:57:52.820 this discussion

00:57:53.580 if you can't

00:57:56.100 put your own

00:57:57.180 ideas, if you

00:57:58.160 can't defend

00:57:58.740 your own

00:57:59.180 ideas to

00:58:00.420 us, then

00:58:02.640 you'll have to

00:58:04.500 sit this one

00:58:05.160 out.

00:58:05.960 Because we

00:58:07.120 this is a

00:58:09.660 dialogue among

00:58:11.100 equals.

00:58:12.060 Okay, so

00:58:12.900 here's the

00:58:15.420 concern I have

00:58:16.400 about that.

00:58:17.880 You pointed

00:58:19.820 out that that

00:58:20.700 scientific

00:58:21.480 enterprise is

00:58:23.300 dependent upon

00:58:24.660 the two

00:58:26.540 things, the

00:58:27.100 assumption of

00:58:27.840 goodwill and

00:58:28.480 trust, but also

00:58:29.440 the presence of

00:58:30.320 goodwill and

00:58:30.900 trust, right?

00:58:31.380 Those are really

00:58:31.840 separate things,

00:58:32.620 because you

00:58:33.280 could have that

00:58:33.860 and I could

00:58:34.280 distrust you

00:58:34.920 anyways.

00:58:35.300 Or I could

00:58:36.220 trust you and

00:58:36.800 that wouldn't

00:58:37.180 be there.

00:58:37.660 But for the

00:58:38.440 scientific endeavor

00:58:39.300 to proceed,

00:58:40.200 your proclamation

00:58:41.280 is that that

00:58:42.220 goodwill and

00:58:43.000 trust have to

00:58:43.580 be there and

00:58:44.100 they have to

00:58:44.680 be assumed.

00:58:46.120 Well, yes,

00:58:47.260 but it's also

00:58:48.060 true.

00:58:50.840 Right, I got

00:58:51.660 that, I got

00:58:52.260 that.

00:58:52.600 Yes, absolutely.

00:58:53.500 It has to be

00:58:54.300 there.

00:58:54.660 Yeah, at the

00:58:55.960 cutting edge of

00:58:58.260 every interesting

00:59:00.340 scientific question,

00:59:04.560 egos reign and

00:59:07.640 there's battles and

00:59:09.320 there's name

00:59:09.980 calling and

00:59:11.080 there's caricature

00:59:13.540 and it's rough

00:59:16.800 and tumble at

00:59:18.060 the cutting edge.

00:59:18.820 but what's

00:59:21.080 behind that

00:59:21.840 cutting edge

00:59:22.540 is the

00:59:23.840 solid heft

00:59:25.320 of the

00:59:26.280 axe,

00:59:27.640 all the

00:59:28.060 agreed upon

00:59:28.940 things,

00:59:29.460 all the

00:59:30.000 things that

00:59:30.460 they're not

00:59:31.380 disagreeing about

00:59:32.960 and that's what

00:59:33.920 gives the

00:59:35.160 scientific enterprise

00:59:36.280 its power.

00:59:37.820 Let me add a

00:59:38.660 couple of things

00:59:39.320 to that scientific

00:59:40.240 conceptualization

00:59:41.280 and you tell me

00:59:42.380 if they're

00:59:42.780 necessary and

00:59:43.700 if you're

00:59:44.860 agreeable to

00:59:45.440 them.

00:59:45.640 Okay, so

00:59:47.440 one would be

00:59:48.880 the assumption

00:59:49.540 that there is

00:59:50.520 an intelligible

00:59:51.320 order.

00:59:52.640 The assumption

00:59:53.540 that that

00:59:54.760 intelligible order

00:59:55.760 is intelligible

00:59:56.760 to us.

00:59:57.920 The assumption

00:59:58.840 that attempts

01:00:00.100 to map that

01:00:01.040 intelligible order

01:00:02.040 are beneficial

01:00:03.240 rather than

01:00:04.420 harmful.

01:00:05.000 Yeah, this is

01:00:05.500 those are

01:00:05.880 that's fine.

01:00:08.960 Okay.

01:00:10.640 That's a

01:00:11.680 working assumption.

01:00:12.860 Okay, I

01:00:16.540 think those

01:00:17.120 working assumptions

01:00:17.940 are religious

01:00:18.720 by definition

01:00:19.920 because they're

01:00:21.080 outside the

01:00:21.880 purview of

01:00:22.400 science.

01:00:22.960 They're the

01:00:23.260 ground upon

01:00:23.840 which, the

01:00:24.580 ground that

01:00:24.980 has to be

01:00:25.420 established before

01:00:26.180 the scientific

01:00:26.800 enterprise can

01:00:27.600 function.

01:00:28.860 And I'm not

01:00:29.560 trying to catch

01:00:30.240 you here, by

01:00:31.040 the way.

01:00:31.520 This is a

01:00:32.080 definitional move.

01:00:33.340 It's like,

01:00:34.160 because it

01:00:34.740 sounds to me

01:00:35.380 like you're

01:00:36.340 making the

01:00:37.280 presumption, and

01:00:37.980 I think it's an

01:00:38.720 accurate presumption,

01:00:40.080 that there are

01:00:40.640 preconditions that

01:00:41.720 must be met

01:00:42.320 before the

01:00:42.800 scientific

01:00:43.160 enterprise can

01:00:43.900 proceed in

01:00:45.580 its proper

01:00:46.260 manner.

01:00:47.540 And my

01:00:48.040 question is,

01:00:48.720 those presumptions

01:00:49.600 aren't within

01:00:50.400 the purview of

01:00:51.160 science.

01:00:51.400 No, no, they 1.00

01:00:51.980 are.

01:00:52.300 They're outside

01:00:52.980 the purview.

01:00:53.200 No, I mean,

01:00:54.840 they're working

01:00:57.380 assumptions.

01:00:57.720 Well, not if

01:00:58.280 they're preconditions.

01:00:58.880 And the reason

01:01:00.100 they are within

01:01:00.940 science is

01:01:02.360 because science

01:01:03.100 has a track

01:01:03.840 record.

01:01:06.280 You drive a

01:01:07.280 car.

01:01:07.620 Okay, so,

01:01:08.220 okay.

01:01:08.480 You drive a

01:01:08.820 car.

01:01:09.180 We're talking

01:01:10.200 using very high

01:01:11.360 tech equipment,

01:01:12.320 right now.

01:01:14.200 So far, the

01:01:15.840 evidence that

01:01:17.240 there's order and

01:01:18.220 that we've got a

01:01:19.080 grip on it

01:01:19.880 could not be

01:01:21.680 better.

01:01:22.720 We can measure

01:01:23.780 things to the

01:01:25.380 microsecond and

01:01:27.660 to the micrometer,

01:01:29.580 and we can

01:01:31.980 plot eclipses

01:01:34.800 centuries in

01:01:37.320 advance.

01:01:37.860 science, that

01:01:39.340 is part of

01:01:41.260 science and

01:01:42.100 part of, and

01:01:43.420 it's part of the

01:01:44.260 structure of

01:01:45.340 science.

01:01:46.460 And that's

01:01:47.260 why our

01:01:47.940 working assumption

01:01:48.820 that there's

01:01:49.400 order is, it's

01:01:52.220 not religious, it's

01:01:53.380 scientific.

01:01:54.760 Okay, okay,

01:01:55.440 okay.

01:01:55.780 Well, then, fair

01:01:57.700 enough, fair

01:01:58.280 enough.

01:01:59.000 You're, you,

01:01:59.480 science has a

01:02:05.060 reputation, and

01:02:05.900 the reputation

01:02:06.580 that it has is

01:02:07.400 well-founded, and

01:02:08.260 the reputation is

01:02:09.300 as an enterprise

01:02:10.260 that can reveal

01:02:11.640 order and to do

01:02:12.820 that in a manner

01:02:13.440 that's reliable and

01:02:14.400 productive.

01:02:15.120 Okay, no

01:02:16.120 problem.

01:02:16.520 I think that's a

01:02:18.280 separate issue in

01:02:19.800 some regard from

01:02:21.300 some of the other

01:02:22.460 axiomatic assumptions

01:02:23.440 that we listed

01:02:24.100 out.

01:02:24.360 It's like an

01:02:24.780 addition to it.

01:02:25.800 It's like, right,

01:02:26.540 because we talked

01:02:27.120 about the necessity

01:02:27.880 of goodwill.

01:02:29.160 We talked about

01:02:29.900 the necessity of

01:02:30.700 assuming goodwill.

01:02:32.400 We talked about

01:02:33.240 the idea of the

01:02:34.160 intelligibility of

01:02:35.260 the order.

01:02:36.340 You said we can

01:02:37.320 also rely on

01:02:38.340 science because

01:02:39.040 its claims to

01:02:40.100 have investigated

01:02:40.880 that order

01:02:41.580 reliably have been

01:02:42.660 validated repeatedly.

01:02:45.220 Right?

01:02:45.420 So it has a

01:02:45.940 brand and a

01:02:46.540 reference.

01:02:46.740 Okay, so let's

01:02:47.900 look for an

01:02:51.200 exception for a

01:02:52.100 minute, just out

01:02:53.360 of curiosity.

01:02:54.140 So I was

01:02:55.000 testifying before

01:02:55.980 Congress yesterday

01:02:57.040 about, or two

01:02:58.240 days ago, about

01:02:59.500 something that you

01:03:00.700 alluded to, right?

01:03:01.800 The breakdown of

01:03:02.620 trust, for example,

01:03:03.560 in an increasingly

01:03:04.340 technological world.

01:03:05.860 Now, you know

01:03:06.840 the Chinese

01:03:07.940 scientists, the

01:03:09.080 engineers, they

01:03:10.320 produced a system

01:03:11.300 in China they

01:03:11.980 call Skynet,

01:03:13.000 after the

01:03:13.620 Terminator series.

01:03:15.440 Right?

01:03:15.600 And Skynet is

01:03:16.460 made out of

01:03:16.960 700 million

01:03:18.300 closed-circuit

01:03:19.280 TV cameras,

01:03:20.400 which monitor

01:03:21.340 everything the

01:03:22.140 Chinese do.

01:03:23.860 And when the

01:03:24.760 engineers who

01:03:25.420 designed this

01:03:25.980 system were

01:03:26.460 pressed on

01:03:27.380 their use of

01:03:28.460 the name

01:03:28.980 Skynet, because

01:03:30.240 Skynet became a

01:03:31.500 system that went

01:03:32.180 to war against

01:03:32.960 humanity, they 1.00

01:03:34.180 said, oh, we're

01:03:35.400 producing the good

01:03:36.280 Skynet, which is

01:03:37.700 of course what the

01:03:38.460 original engineers

01:03:39.400 presumed in the

01:03:40.400 movie series.

01:03:41.600 And so it's

01:03:42.620 surreally

01:03:43.240 insane and

01:03:45.560 extraordinarily

01:03:46.340 dangerous.

01:03:47.280 Now, how do

01:03:48.720 you, but you

01:03:50.120 see that there's a

01:03:50.980 danger in that

01:03:51.780 technology run

01:03:52.780 amok.

01:03:53.040 Absolutely.

01:03:54.180 Now, well, why

01:03:56.340 is, how do, if

01:03:58.360 we're careful, how

01:03:59.920 do we segregate

01:04:01.320 the perversion of

01:04:03.700 the scientific

01:04:04.380 enterprise, which

01:04:05.380 is still using much

01:04:06.520 of the same

01:04:07.180 technology and

01:04:08.520 approach?

01:04:09.060 Like, it seems

01:04:10.420 to me that in

01:04:11.120 China it's devoted 0.98

01:04:12.080 towards evil ends

01:04:13.300 and that that's an

01:04:14.080 ever-present

01:04:14.600 problem.

01:04:16.960 Well, that's an

01:04:17.980 ever-present and

01:04:18.720 ever-lurking

01:04:19.220 problem.

01:04:20.260 And so is the

01:04:21.540 science that the

01:04:22.360 Chinese are engaging

01:04:23.560 in that has this

01:04:24.640 element of the

01:04:25.720 extension of control

01:04:27.020 and surveillance,

01:04:28.920 can we, is that a

01:04:30.580 false science?

01:04:32.060 Or, like, how do

01:04:32.860 we conceptualize

01:04:34.420 within the

01:04:34.900 scientific realm

01:04:35.740 the deviation from

01:04:37.660 the ideal that

01:04:40.480 the Chinese are 1.00

01:04:41.240 pursuing and that

01:04:42.040 now threatens us,

01:04:43.540 let's say?

01:04:44.180 Well, many, many

01:04:46.840 years ago, Norbert

01:04:48.360 Wiener put it very

01:04:49.340 well.

01:04:49.900 He said, don't

01:04:52.460 make the mistake,

01:04:54.820 I can't quote him

01:04:56.020 exactly, but he

01:04:56.880 said, when you

01:05:00.160 make a tool, you

01:05:01.140 also make a

01:05:01.960 weapon.

01:05:02.280 And how you

01:05:05.420 use it, don't

01:05:07.260 think, don't

01:05:08.700 think that your

01:05:10.360 defensive weapons

01:05:11.600 won't be turned

01:05:12.340 against you as

01:05:13.400 offense.

01:05:14.980 It's, it's...

01:05:15.960 Yeah.

01:05:16.400 Sixteen years is the 0.60

01:05:17.580 lag, right?

01:05:18.420 I think that was

01:05:19.040 from Wiener, too.

01:05:19.860 He said, any

01:05:20.540 weapon you make

01:05:21.460 will be used by

01:05:22.140 your enemies

01:05:22.580 within one

01:05:23.160 generation.

01:05:24.200 It's something

01:05:24.500 like that.

01:05:25.120 And every tool is

01:05:27.920 a weapon.

01:05:28.260 Yeah.

01:05:28.900 This, that's

01:05:30.540 true.

01:05:31.640 And that's why we

01:05:32.820 need government

01:05:34.140 and law, law

01:05:37.080 and order, in

01:05:40.580 addition to, I

01:05:42.100 mean, science

01:05:42.860 depends on it.

01:05:44.960 Science depends

01:05:45.920 on freedom

01:05:48.480 and order.

01:05:51.660 And that's

01:05:55.180 why, that's

01:05:56.080 why the

01:05:56.540 science that

01:05:57.720 occurs in the

01:05:58.600 free world is

01:06:00.640 way ahead of

01:06:01.400 the science that

01:06:02.240 occurs in

01:06:03.580 dictatorships.

01:06:05.640 Right.

01:06:05.980 Okay.

01:06:06.280 So, those are

01:06:06.980 part of the

01:06:07.420 preconditions for

01:06:08.240 the scientific

01:06:08.820 endeavor that we

01:06:09.680 discussed earlier.

01:06:10.980 Okay.

01:06:11.600 Now, I believe

01:06:12.840 it was in your

01:06:13.580 book, you

01:06:14.460 described Stephen

01:06:15.880 Jay Gould's

01:06:16.720 two magisteria

01:06:17.700 notion, right?

01:06:19.300 That there were

01:06:19.620 independent

01:06:20.040 magisteria.

01:06:20.760 And in

01:06:22.420 your book, you

01:06:23.120 weren't, you

01:06:26.240 didn't, you

01:06:27.120 weren't particularly

01:06:28.280 convinced by that

01:06:29.960 argument.

01:06:30.420 That, that's a

01:06:31.060 good way of

01:06:31.440 thinking about it.

01:06:31.980 I thought it

01:06:32.820 was blunt.

01:06:33.140 Now, let me ask

01:06:33.640 you, okay, okay,

01:06:36.100 great, okay, so

01:06:36.780 that's very blunt.

01:06:37.640 Okay, so let me

01:06:39.040 reframe what you

01:06:40.800 just said, including

01:06:42.920 that realm of

01:06:45.200 conceptualization that

01:06:46.400 that's in contention

01:06:47.300 between you and

01:06:48.020 Gould.

01:06:48.260 Yeah.

01:06:48.960 Okay, so what I

01:06:49.680 heard you say,

01:06:50.400 tell me if I've

01:06:51.480 got it wrong, is

01:06:52.240 that the

01:06:53.780 scientific enterprise

01:06:55.060 nests inside

01:06:57.020 another enterprise.

01:06:58.600 Yeah.

01:06:59.180 That enterprise is

01:07:00.220 associated with

01:07:01.360 freedom and order,

01:07:02.380 a kind of order.

01:07:03.200 Civilization.

01:07:04.120 And regulated by

01:07:05.000 laws.

01:07:06.060 Okay, okay.

01:07:06.820 And that system

01:07:07.860 itself is

01:07:08.680 predicated on a

01:07:10.600 system of

01:07:11.440 fundamental

01:07:11.920 assumptions.

01:07:13.000 So let's say in

01:07:13.960 the United States,

01:07:14.720 for example, the

01:07:15.920 entire body of

01:07:16.860 laws that allows

01:07:18.000 for the order that

01:07:19.080 makes scientific

01:07:19.800 freedom possible

01:07:20.780 is at least in

01:07:22.180 part grounded on

01:07:23.120 our conceptualizations,

01:07:24.620 let's say, of

01:07:25.180 inalienable human

01:07:26.200 rights.

01:07:26.860 Yes, and that

01:07:29.340 nobody is above the

01:07:30.420 law.

01:07:31.960 So that's a

01:07:32.460 stacking.

01:07:33.820 Okay, so what that

01:07:34.780 implies is that the

01:07:35.920 scientific enterprise

01:07:36.860 itself is nested

01:07:38.080 inside another

01:07:39.300 enterprise.

01:07:39.820 See, that's the

01:07:40.420 conception.

01:07:41.560 I think this is

01:07:42.240 where Gould went

01:07:43.020 wrong.

01:07:43.820 You know, okay,

01:07:44.360 well, so then we

01:07:45.220 could say in

01:07:45.940 terms of his

01:07:46.540 magisteria argument,

01:07:47.660 it's not that

01:07:48.260 they're side-by-side

01:07:49.140 systems in separate

01:07:50.200 domains.

01:07:50.720 It's that the

01:07:51.340 scientific enterprise

01:07:52.440 is nested inside a

01:07:54.380 moral enterprise

01:07:55.340 by necessity

01:07:56.460 and goes astray

01:07:58.040 if it's not

01:07:58.640 nested inside that

01:07:59.700 enterprise.

01:07:59.920 The moral enterprise,

01:08:00.560 yes.

01:08:01.260 Where Gould went

01:08:02.760 wrong was in

01:08:04.120 thinking that

01:08:04.700 religion was the 0.98

01:08:06.500 authority on the

01:08:07.740 moral side.

01:08:09.980 It's not.

01:08:11.060 Okay, so let's

01:08:11.820 delve into...

01:08:12.580 How could a

01:08:13.700 Harvard professor

01:08:14.760 in the same

01:08:16.520 university where

01:08:17.800 John Rawls and

01:08:19.200 Robert Nozick and

01:08:20.680 other philosophers

01:08:22.200 have been doing

01:08:23.860 magnificent work

01:08:25.400 in ethics, how

01:08:26.400 could he forget

01:08:27.220 about secular

01:08:28.480 treatments of

01:08:30.600 morality?

01:08:32.600 That's the

01:08:34.020 question.

01:08:35.380 All right, so

01:08:35.820 now we have a

01:08:36.540 model of the

01:08:37.640 scientific enterprise

01:08:38.720 proceeding in the

01:08:40.120 West and proceeding

01:08:41.040 appropriately and

01:08:42.460 positively because

01:08:44.020 it's nested in a...

01:08:45.140 You said nested in

01:08:46.160 civilization.

01:08:47.760 And we have

01:08:48.240 civilization itself

01:08:49.560 predicated on a

01:08:51.200 set of fundamental

01:08:52.060 principles.

01:08:52.460 Yes.

01:08:53.600 Well, yeah,

01:08:55.020 fundamental but

01:08:56.060 evolving.

01:08:59.260 We don't want to be

01:09:01.160 foundationalists in

01:09:04.480 the philosophical

01:09:05.860 sense.

01:09:07.480 We don't want to be

01:09:08.260 rigid.

01:09:08.640 We don't want to be

01:09:08.840 rigid.

01:09:09.100 Hey, I've got

01:09:10.860 something to ask

01:09:12.420 you about with

01:09:12.900 relationship to

01:09:13.620 that.

01:09:14.200 So you tell me what

01:09:14.980 you think about

01:09:15.500 this.

01:09:16.320 So there was a

01:09:16.880 paper published in

01:09:17.900 2022 in the

01:09:20.720 fall.

01:09:21.460 I think it's a

01:09:22.040 revolutionary paper.

01:09:23.440 I think it should

01:09:24.160 win a Nobel Prize.

01:09:25.160 It stunned me.

01:09:26.960 So mutations are

01:09:29.920 essentially random

01:09:30.920 for all sorts of

01:09:32.140 reasons.

01:09:33.060 They're random in

01:09:34.160 part because the

01:09:35.560 effect of cosmic

01:09:36.800 radiation is random

01:09:38.080 and obviously

01:09:39.180 random.

01:09:39.560 Random in one

01:09:41.060 sense but not in

01:09:42.460 another.

01:09:44.720 Okay.

01:09:45.280 Well, I'll let you

01:09:45.860 clarify that.

01:09:46.880 I'll just walk

01:09:47.660 through the paper and

01:09:48.360 then I'll let you

01:09:48.840 clarify that.

01:09:49.520 Whose paper is this?

01:09:51.520 I don't remember.

01:09:53.020 I'll put it in the

01:09:54.160 discussion notes.

01:09:55.760 I can't remember the

01:09:56.920 citation at hand.

01:09:58.660 So you know that

01:09:59.880 DNA has the capacity

01:10:01.180 to repair itself.

01:10:02.980 It does that quite

01:10:03.620 often.

01:10:03.960 It error checks and

01:10:05.080 repairs itself.

01:10:06.560 No, there's a

01:10:07.140 hierarchy of repair

01:10:09.120 so that the more

01:10:10.420 foundational genetic

01:10:11.900 elements, if

01:10:12.700 mutated, repair with

01:10:14.000 100% accuracy.

01:10:17.460 So there's a

01:10:17.820 hierarchy.

01:10:18.580 So the genetic

01:10:19.840 code allows for

01:10:21.080 experimentation at the

01:10:23.080 fringe and

01:10:23.600 preservation of the

01:10:24.660 core.

01:10:26.200 And so this is the

01:10:27.740 reason I'm bringing

01:10:28.300 this up because it's

01:10:29.800 the answer to the

01:10:30.960 issue that you just

01:10:31.980 brought up with

01:10:32.960 regard to foundational

01:10:35.460 principles and

01:10:36.380 dynamism.

01:10:37.560 That there's a core

01:10:38.740 set of principles

01:10:39.640 around which an area

01:10:41.500 of dynamism and

01:10:42.460 exploration is not

01:10:44.480 only to be allowed

01:10:45.260 but to be encouraged.

01:10:46.920 But the foundational

01:10:47.700 elements, there are

01:10:49.180 foundational elements,

01:10:50.680 you know the dictum,

01:10:52.700 extraordinary claims

01:10:54.840 require extraordinary

01:10:55.900 evidence.

01:10:56.500 There are foundational

01:10:58.120 theories in science

01:11:00.040 that you don't

01:11:00.680 overthrow without a

01:11:01.840 plethora of evidence

01:11:03.240 because so many other

01:11:04.560 ideas depend on them.

01:11:07.180 So, okay, so

01:11:08.640 the foundational

01:11:11.380 elements, see, this is

01:11:13.440 why I introduced the

01:11:14.800 definition of the

01:11:16.240 religious that I

01:11:17.220 started the

01:11:17.740 conversation with, is

01:11:18.960 that because my sense

01:11:20.540 is that the proper

01:11:22.160 religious enterprise is

01:11:23.980 the inquiry, not only

01:11:25.660 into the foundational

01:11:26.660 elements, let's say,

01:11:27.760 that underlie the

01:11:28.720 civilization within which

01:11:30.200 science is nested, but

01:11:32.000 that also govern the

01:11:33.080 relationship between that

01:11:34.660 foundation and the

01:11:36.260 transformations of the

01:11:37.560 foundation that are

01:11:38.380 necessary.

01:11:39.240 I'll give you an example

01:11:40.240 from Egyptian theology.

01:11:41.800 Remember we talked about

01:11:42.840 Horus earlier?

01:11:43.900 Yep.

01:11:44.100 Okay, so the Egyptians 0.83

01:11:46.240 actually had two male

01:11:48.120 gods, fundamental male

01:11:49.440 gods.

01:11:50.340 Well, there was three if

01:11:51.220 you count the evil god,

01:11:53.060 and I'll mention him

01:11:53.900 briefly.

01:11:54.460 So, their god of

01:11:56.000 foundations was Osiris.

01:11:59.220 Now, Osiris had some

01:12:00.900 fundamental flaws.

01:12:03.720 Osiris was a great hero

01:12:05.180 in his youth when he

01:12:06.540 established Egypt, but as

01:12:08.480 he aged, he became rigid

01:12:10.060 and totalitarian and

01:12:11.600 willfully blind.

01:12:12.540 And because of that,

01:12:15.220 that made him susceptible

01:12:16.440 to overthrow by his

01:12:17.840 evil brother.

01:12:18.960 That's Seth, by the way,

01:12:20.360 and the word Seth

01:12:21.540 becomes the word Satan

01:12:22.960 through the Coptic 0.98

01:12:24.240 Christians as that idea 1.00

01:12:25.500 develops.

01:12:26.400 So, the idea is that

01:12:27.380 there's a spirit of the

01:12:29.940 state, let's say, of

01:12:32.060 civilization for that

01:12:33.180 matter, which can

01:12:34.200 rigidify and become

01:12:35.680 blind, and when that

01:12:37.560 happens, it's susceptible

01:12:38.780 to overthrow by chaotic

01:12:42.480 and malevolent forces.

01:12:44.220 Okay.

01:12:44.800 What happens under those

01:12:46.340 circumstances is that

01:12:47.620 everything descends into

01:12:48.780 chaos.

01:12:50.400 The Egyptians represented

01:12:52.020 that as the rise of Isis,

01:12:53.860 the goddess Isis.

01:12:55.180 She's the goddess of chaos, 0.84

01:12:56.680 and all hell breaks loose.

01:12:59.780 She gives birth to this

01:13:01.540 other god, Horus.

01:13:03.760 Horus is the god of 1.00

01:13:04.860 attention.

01:13:06.340 Horus, who's the god of

01:13:07.860 attention, fights with Seth,

01:13:09.440 who's the evil god who

01:13:11.120 overthrows the corrupt

01:13:12.300 state, and he loses an

01:13:17.020 eye in the battle.

01:13:18.100 He goes down into the

01:13:19.200 underworld.

01:13:19.860 He gets the eye back.

01:13:20.900 He defeats Seth.

01:13:21.760 He banishes him.

01:13:22.560 He gets the eye back.

01:13:23.480 He goes down to Osiris.

01:13:25.040 He gives Osiris his eye, 0.67

01:13:27.500 and now Osiris can see, and

01:13:29.820 then they both reemerge and

01:13:32.820 govern the proper state, and

01:13:34.300 so what the Egyptians

01:13:35.200 conceptualized was that the

01:13:37.060 proper sovereign was the

01:13:38.500 proper balance between

01:13:40.200 foundational tradition and

01:13:43.340 dynamic vision, and that's

01:13:46.160 what they incorporated as

01:13:47.380 their core, the core spirit

01:13:49.740 of the pharaoh.

01:13:50.940 Yeah, that's the right way of

01:13:52.040 thinking about it, and so

01:13:53.900 that's how they balanced the

01:13:55.440 conflict between foundational

01:13:58.240 principles and the dynamism that

01:14:00.100 keeps them operative and

01:14:01.360 updated as things change and

01:14:03.960 shift around.

01:14:04.640 And, okay, so here's a

01:14:07.860 thought.

01:14:08.820 So, we talked about the

01:14:11.780 scientific enterprise nested in

01:14:13.380 a moral enterprise, predicated

01:14:15.560 on a system of principles.

01:14:17.860 So, those principles themselves

01:14:19.820 have a foundational element,

01:14:21.780 right?

01:14:22.540 And the farther down you go into

01:14:24.660 that, into the depths of that

01:14:27.120 hierarchy, the closer you come to

01:14:29.800 what the evolved religious

01:14:33.740 enterprise is aiming to

01:14:35.340 specify.

01:14:36.560 The evolved religious

01:14:37.960 enterprise sounds to me like

01:14:39.620 science.

01:14:41.060 Okay, so I want to return to the

01:14:42.860 model that we were fleshing out a

01:14:44.500 bit, and because there's

01:14:46.040 something I don't understand

01:14:47.280 about our exchange of ideas at

01:14:52.200 the moment.

01:14:52.640 So, I want to recapitulate what

01:14:55.080 we've talked about in the last 10

01:14:56.500 minutes or so.

01:14:57.180 So, we were talking about the way

01:15:00.560 that the scientific enterprise can

01:15:02.880 go astray, and we seem to agree

01:15:05.140 that it has gone astray, for

01:15:07.040 example, in totalitarian China.

01:15:09.900 And there's examples of that

01:15:11.440 occurring in the past, obviously.

01:15:13.080 The scientific enterprise went

01:15:14.400 badly astray under the Nazis and

01:15:16.240 certainly under the Soviets.

01:15:18.020 And I said, how do we ensure that it

01:15:20.120 doesn't go astray?

01:15:21.180 And you said, well, it has to be

01:15:22.640 nested inside a civilizational

01:15:24.520 structure, right?

01:15:25.580 And there's a certain

01:15:26.680 conception of man and his

01:15:29.320 relationship to other men and

01:15:31.680 women within that underlying 0.99

01:15:34.360 structure.

01:15:35.500 Now, what I would like you to do,

01:15:38.740 if you would, is to clarify

01:15:40.000 whether you see the scientific

01:15:43.200 enterprise as nested inside that

01:15:46.740 broader enterprise.

01:15:47.900 Like, what's the relationship?

01:15:49.440 Because this was the Stephen Jay

01:15:50.700 Gould question, right?

01:15:52.020 He talked about two independent

01:15:53.840 magisteria.

01:15:54.800 We're looking at a model where

01:15:56.260 one, the scientific enterprise is

01:15:58.440 stacked on top of something else.

01:16:00.120 And I'm wondering if you think

01:16:02.000 that's a more appropriate

01:16:03.360 conceptualization.

01:16:04.560 I just want to get that clear.

01:16:07.160 Well, where Gould went wrong is in

01:16:10.320 thinking that the second

01:16:11.740 magisteria was religious as opposed

01:16:15.080 to secular.

01:16:15.780 ethics is, one might say, half of

01:16:23.280 philosophy.

01:16:25.060 And almost all of it is

01:16:27.140 non-religious.

01:16:28.420 It's secular.

01:16:29.420 Okay, but is it scientific?

01:16:30.740 All the advances in ethics that we've

01:16:36.060 seen in the last, let's say, 5,000

01:16:39.840 years have been fought by the

01:16:43.460 religions but have gradually been

01:16:46.100 won over by the secular ethicists.

01:16:48.620 Okay, so I'm clear about this.

01:16:50.760 So now let me recapitulate then and

01:16:53.680 see if I've got the way you're

01:16:55.480 conceptualizing this right.

01:16:56.620 So you have the scientific enterprise,

01:16:58.100 and if it's properly oriented, it's

01:17:00.560 nested in a broader moral enterprise.

01:17:03.120 But your claim is that the moral

01:17:04.780 enterprise itself is secular.

01:17:07.560 Okay, is it secular?

01:17:08.940 That is, the advances are secular.

01:17:14.860 And the history of the evolution of

01:17:18.320 ethics in the last 10,000 years has

01:17:22.800 been a history of the secularization

01:17:25.800 of ethics.

01:17:26.740 away, away from New Testament 0.85

01:17:31.640 ethics, which was terrible, to, and

01:17:38.360 it's still evolving.

01:17:39.760 And we have issues today.

01:17:42.020 We have issues about vegetarianism

01:17:44.800 and about, about, you know, we've

01:17:49.660 given up cannibalism and slavery.

01:17:51.840 Thank you.

01:17:53.740 That's good.

01:17:55.360 But we, but we, we, there's still

01:17:58.260 no agreement on a lot of fundamental

01:18:03.680 issues in ethics.

01:18:05.120 But those agreements have nothing to do

01:18:07.520 with religion.

01:18:09.180 Okay, okay.

01:18:09.820 So I've got it.

01:18:10.540 So your, your, your, your, your model is

01:18:13.280 the scientific enterprise nested in a

01:18:15.340 broader moral enterprise.

01:18:16.340 But you believe the core element of that

01:18:19.740 in, in so far as it's valuable is

01:18:21.880 secular.

01:18:23.240 Okay.

01:18:23.660 So, all right.

01:18:24.680 So then is it, what are the means of

01:18:28.420 validation of the secular ethical enterprise?

01:18:31.620 Now, they can't be scientific if science is

01:18:34.680 on top of that structure, because then

01:18:36.960 you, those two things just collapse into

01:18:38.800 each other.

01:18:39.520 So by what principles do the secular

01:18:42.300 ethicists validate their claims?

01:18:44.620 If they're not, if they're not validated

01:18:46.560 scientifically?

01:18:48.160 Well, there's science and then there's,

01:18:51.400 but I have to explain this carefully,

01:18:53.500 politics.

01:18:54.120 Science is about what is, politics is about

01:19:00.860 what we should do.

01:19:02.860 Now, these are both rational exercises.

01:19:07.420 And what we should do, normative, normative

01:19:11.440 inquiry about what the norms should be.

01:19:17.500 And it includes logic, game theory,

01:19:24.120 probability theory.

01:19:28.240 Let's stop right there.

01:19:30.460 Yeah.

01:19:32.040 There's more to it than that.

01:19:33.500 Yeah.

01:19:33.640 But, but there's, there's all of, there are,

01:19:37.880 there are normative disciplines and some of

01:19:42.080 it is very abstract, like mathematics,

01:19:46.820 mathematical game theory, and some of it

01:19:51.360 and, and mathematical logic.

01:19:54.120 And arithmetic and geometry, there's a right

01:20:00.420 and a wrong way of doing these things,

01:20:02.280 which we've learned.

01:20:04.500 Not thanks to religion, thanks to our 1.00

01:20:09.300 mutual understanding of what works.

01:20:14.680 The reason we trust arithmetic is because it works.

01:20:20.720 No proofs that arithmetic was good would be worth a darn

01:20:28.540 if we couldn't count on it to count,

01:20:30.860 to count our cattle and to count our money

01:20:34.140 and to count the miles from here to there.

01:20:37.180 We have this uncontroversial base of achievement

01:20:47.760 from civilization,

01:20:50.580 which has encouraged us to pursue

01:20:55.920 normative inquiry, rationally.

01:21:04.080 And by and large, religion has not had any role in that,

01:21:09.080 or if it has, it's been a negative role.

01:21:11.760 It has been to maintain outdated standards of morality.

01:21:20.220 On occasion, it has helped wonderfully.

01:21:27.520 The black church was a wonderful force in civil rights

01:21:36.780 in the 20th century,

01:21:39.020 but only by fighting the white church.

01:21:42.480 The white church dug in its heels,

01:21:45.940 and it's digging in its heels now.

01:21:49.020 And that's lamentable.

01:21:52.320 What we need is secular ethics

01:21:55.180 and secular politics.

01:22:02.880 Religion was a wonderful taming force. 1.00

01:22:08.960 It's what I call a nurse crop. 0.99

01:22:10.880 Do you know what a nurse crop is?

01:22:12.720 No.

01:22:14.500 I think I mentioned this in Breaking the Spell.

01:22:19.120 My neighbor, an old farmer,

01:22:21.260 when I planted my hay fields when I had a farm,

01:22:24.360 he said, you want to plant oats as a nurse crop first 0.92

01:22:28.460 before the Timothy, the hay comes up.

01:22:31.340 I see.

01:22:31.560 He says it'll protect the young Timothy.

01:22:36.680 You can harvest it if you want,

01:22:39.260 or you can just let it go.

01:22:40.600 But it's a temporary scaffold

01:22:45.260 which protects the tender shoots of the hay.

01:22:49.280 That's a nurse crop. 1.00

01:22:50.700 So I think of religion as a nurse crop for science. 0.99

01:22:54.320 We needed religion to have the sort of stability

01:22:59.400 of civilizations for several thousand years.

01:23:03.780 But now we don't need religion anymore as a nurse crop 1.00

01:23:08.320 because we've got secular systems,

01:23:12.160 law and order,

01:23:13.880 and the understanding of secular ethics.

01:23:17.620 So we no longer need religious ethics

01:23:22.000 because it's outlived its usefulness,

01:23:25.320 and in fact it's become more harm than good.

01:23:28.000 Okay, okay.

01:23:28.700 So let me ask you a couple of questions about that.

01:23:31.260 The first would be,

01:23:32.640 what do you think it was within the terms of your formulation

01:23:36.580 about the religious enterprise

01:23:38.700 that allowed it to play its role

01:23:40.820 as a precondition or as a nurse crop

01:23:44.580 as in your metaphor?

01:23:47.200 What was it doing that was useful and correct?

01:23:52.240 I can explain that with an old joke.

01:23:54.620 A Maine joke.

01:24:01.180 I'm sitting in Maine

01:24:02.560 and had a farm in Maine for many years.

01:24:05.460 One little Maine town

01:24:06.900 had a sign that said,

01:24:10.000 Speed Radar Controlled.

01:24:14.180 And a newcomer said,

01:24:16.600 well, that must be pretty expensive.

01:24:21.540 And the old-timer said,

01:24:24.140 no, no, it's just a few boards

01:24:26.380 and some white paint

01:24:27.380 and a little bit of black paint.

01:24:29.760 It's just a sign.

01:24:31.640 It's the idea that somebody's watching you.

01:24:35.280 It's the idea that God is watching you.

01:24:38.680 That'll be shorthand

01:24:41.780 for the role that religion played.

01:24:45.200 It was Big Brother in the Sky watching you.

01:24:48.880 And that was a great idea.

01:24:50.540 It was a brilliant way of...

01:24:56.160 And I think it was H.L. Mencken

01:24:58.100 who said that your conscience

01:24:59.460 is the idea that somebody may be watching you.

01:25:04.140 A very powerful idea.

01:25:07.160 Given the absence of evidence

01:25:10.520 for its validity,

01:25:13.240 let's say,

01:25:13.860 from the secular or scientific perspective,

01:25:16.460 what accounts for its viability

01:25:18.980 as a stabilizing and civilizing factor.

01:25:22.480 And this goes back...

01:25:23.700 This is a very complex problem, right?

01:25:25.740 Because we already,

01:25:27.040 at the beginning of our talk,

01:25:28.920 defined the truth of something,

01:25:31.280 at least to some degree,

01:25:32.520 in relationship to its utility.

01:25:34.620 I don't want to wander too far down that path

01:25:36.700 because I know it's full of pitfalls.

01:25:38.100 But how do you...

01:25:41.940 What do you see that as?

01:25:44.160 Do you see that as a necessary fiction?

01:25:47.020 On my view of religion,

01:25:49.320 we started out with polytheisms.

01:25:54.580 And this is...

01:25:55.840 Every community had its own...

01:25:58.940 Its goblins and fairies and nymphs 0.99

01:26:02.980 and other supernatural agents

01:26:07.540 and with various talents and histories.

01:26:12.040 And those were...

01:26:14.440 What were they good for?

01:26:15.620 Nothing.

01:26:16.440 They were just the...

01:26:18.940 offshoots of human susceptibility,

01:26:25.420 human fears,

01:26:26.540 human curiosity

01:26:27.960 that generated...

01:26:30.200 This was the hyperactive agent detection devices.

01:26:35.280 These were the spawn of those.

01:26:38.180 And when they became domesticated,

01:26:41.220 they were feral initially.

01:26:44.520 They were synanthropic beings,

01:26:47.780 synanthropic memes.

01:26:49.360 They survived because they could.

01:26:51.740 They were just superstitions.

01:26:53.680 But then they got harnessed by civilization.

01:26:57.180 And rulers used them very effectively.

01:27:03.640 And many of the ideas of religion

01:27:06.140 were clearly very useful

01:27:09.560 to ruling classes,

01:27:12.500 to kings,

01:27:13.640 to despots,

01:27:15.060 to maintain law and order.

01:27:17.640 And the idea that...

01:27:20.260 Another one in the same family

01:27:22.180 with somebody who's watching you all the time

01:27:24.480 was don't blame me.

01:27:28.700 It's the big guy who makes the rules.

01:27:32.540 This is...

01:27:33.700 We see it today

01:27:35.780 when the used car salesman says,

01:27:38.340 well, I can't make you this offer.

01:27:40.540 I have to go talk to the boss.

01:27:43.880 It's a...

01:27:44.700 These are...

01:27:45.280 There are all sorts of wonderful devices,

01:27:48.900 tools,

01:27:50.000 thinking tools,

01:27:50.780 that religion has evolved

01:27:52.840 which kept

01:27:55.120 the

01:27:56.700 anxiety

01:28:00.120 about

01:28:02.120 God watching everything you do

01:28:05.240 alive

01:28:07.400 for thousands of years.

01:28:09.320 God is not watching

01:28:10.920 what you do

01:28:11.960 because there is no God

01:28:13.340 that watches.

01:28:14.860 But

01:28:15.160 we can

01:28:17.280 still

01:28:18.680 behave

01:28:19.460 without

01:28:20.800 that

01:28:21.920 myth.

01:28:23.700 Okay.

01:28:24.020 Okay.

01:28:24.300 So let me ask you about that.

01:28:25.900 So

01:28:26.060 my mind goes in a couple of directions.

01:28:29.680 I mean,

01:28:30.420 the God who's watching

01:28:31.720 in the Old Testament

01:28:32.760 is watching

01:28:33.460 for very specific reasons.

01:28:36.060 I mean,

01:28:36.800 so for example,

01:28:37.620 in the story of Noah,

01:28:40.040 God is watching

01:28:41.800 and dispenses

01:28:43.160 catastrophe

01:28:44.080 when things deviate

01:28:45.720 to

01:28:46.740 to great a degree.

01:28:48.660 Now,

01:28:48.840 I mean,

01:28:49.060 that happens all the time.

01:28:50.260 It's a horrific story.

01:28:51.260 But it's also something

01:28:52.340 that happens all the time

01:28:53.620 in human society,

01:28:55.260 right?

01:28:55.520 It's people deviate

01:28:56.620 and

01:28:57.580 get destroyed.

01:28:59.460 And that's it.

01:29:00.140 I'm not making a theological case

01:29:02.180 for that,

01:29:02.560 by the way.

01:29:03.600 I mean,

01:29:03.760 we saw that happen

01:29:04.480 multiple times

01:29:05.160 in the 20th century

01:29:06.180 where societies

01:29:07.640 degenerated into 0.84

01:29:08.900 like a power-mad

01:29:10.220 licentiousness

01:29:11.180 and were essentially

01:29:12.500 obliterated

01:29:13.240 in consequence,

01:29:14.960 which indicates

01:29:16.220 that they've deviated

01:29:17.440 from the central,

01:29:19.740 from some...

01:29:21.820 When things go wrong,

01:29:23.100 they go really wrong.

01:29:24.600 Right.

01:29:24.960 And they go wrong

01:29:25.880 because they've deviated

01:29:27.020 from some

01:29:27.800 appropriate pathway forward.

01:29:31.740 Well,

01:29:32.360 there can't be

01:29:32.900 wrong

01:29:34.100 without the notion

01:29:36.140 of deviation,

01:29:36.960 right?

01:29:37.140 Because if there's

01:29:38.080 something that's wrong,

01:29:38.880 there's something

01:29:39.240 that's right.

01:29:40.140 Yeah.

01:29:40.380 Sure.

01:29:40.760 Okay, okay.

01:29:41.720 So that means

01:29:43.180 that the fictional God,

01:29:44.800 so to speak,

01:29:45.380 of the Old Testament

01:29:46.200 watches,

01:29:47.080 just doesn't watch,

01:29:48.180 but also watches

01:29:49.060 to see when things

01:29:50.140 are going wrong.

01:29:51.680 And in the story

01:29:52.400 of Noah,

01:29:52.940 God is the voice

01:29:53.760 that calls

01:29:54.840 to the wise

01:29:55.600 to prepare

01:29:56.340 when things

01:29:57.420 are going

01:29:57.920 catastrophically wrong.

01:30:00.880 Right?

01:30:01.380 And that's

01:30:01.700 a good definition.

01:30:02.860 And so,

01:30:03.840 okay,

01:30:04.200 so let me ask

01:30:04.860 you about that.

01:30:05.580 what do you think

01:30:10.040 of the state

01:30:10.880 of the secular morality

01:30:12.360 at the moment

01:30:13.080 that permeates

01:30:13.960 the universities?

01:30:15.640 That permeates

01:30:16.580 the universities

01:30:17.240 right now?

01:30:18.040 Yeah.

01:30:18.600 It's got some

01:30:19.100 real problems.

01:30:20.220 Okay,

01:30:20.620 how would you

01:30:21.160 characterize those problems?

01:30:22.220 Because academic freedom

01:30:23.760 is not what it should be

01:30:27.580 right now

01:30:28.880 in the academy.

01:30:30.300 and we have

01:30:32.120 curtailments

01:30:38.520 of openness,

01:30:41.860 curtailments,

01:30:43.020 abridgements

01:30:43.620 of academic freedom

01:30:44.680 that should not be

01:30:45.620 allowed.

01:30:47.680 And what's

01:30:49.160 your understanding?

01:30:50.400 See,

01:30:50.980 my sense

01:30:51.780 at the moment

01:30:52.300 is that

01:30:52.800 the secular project

01:30:53.940 within the universities

01:30:54.880 has gone badly wrong.

01:30:57.940 Is that,

01:30:58.540 do you?

01:30:58.840 Oh,

01:30:59.040 I don't think so.

01:30:59.740 Well,

01:31:00.380 I mean,

01:31:00.840 okay,

01:31:01.260 that's what I'm trying

01:31:02.780 to get clear.

01:31:04.820 Yeah,

01:31:05.420 yeah.

01:31:06.080 I don't think

01:31:07.040 the religious academy

01:31:08.480 is doing any better.

01:31:11.080 That is,

01:31:11.800 I don't think

01:31:12.400 religious universities,

01:31:15.140 Bob Jones University

01:31:16.440 or other

01:31:17.140 religious

01:31:17.940 institutions

01:31:19.480 have a

01:31:20.900 better record.

01:31:22.920 I

01:31:23.340 think

01:31:25.740 on the contrary,

01:31:26.740 we're

01:31:26.940 better off

01:31:28.660 with the turmoil

01:31:30.660 in the secular

01:31:31.880 universities,

01:31:33.200 but it is turmoil

01:31:34.580 and some

01:31:36.820 significant

01:31:37.760 revisions

01:31:38.780 have to be

01:31:40.100 put in place

01:31:41.800 and it's going

01:31:42.240 to take some

01:31:42.880 very careful

01:31:44.400 work

01:31:45.380 to accomplish

01:31:46.560 that,

01:31:47.280 but it's got

01:31:48.380 to happen.

01:31:49.120 Okay,

01:31:49.280 so given

01:31:50.880 that

01:31:51.280 the universities

01:31:54.880 were the

01:31:55.500 central

01:31:56.060 playing ground,

01:31:58.220 let's say,

01:31:58.780 for the

01:32:00.420 progress,

01:32:01.340 the maintenance

01:32:01.740 and progress

01:32:02.380 of secularized

01:32:03.240 morality,

01:32:03.920 I think that's a

01:32:04.540 reasonable way

01:32:05.180 of thinking

01:32:05.740 about it,

01:32:06.860 what do you

01:32:07.960 think has

01:32:08.440 occurred to

01:32:09.280 put them,

01:32:11.660 to make them

01:32:12.520 go astray?

01:32:13.420 And astray

01:32:14.160 from what?

01:32:15.620 You mentioned

01:32:16.300 freedom,

01:32:17.040 academic freedom,

01:32:17.880 and we

01:32:18.840 could expound

01:32:19.380 upon that,

01:32:19.840 but what do

01:32:20.520 you think's

01:32:20.960 gone wrong?

01:32:22.520 Well,

01:32:23.660 I think

01:32:25.980 several things

01:32:27.380 have gone

01:32:27.740 wrong.

01:32:30.600 One of

01:32:31.260 them is,

01:32:32.020 H.L.

01:32:32.540 Mencken has

01:32:33.080 a saying

01:32:33.780 I love to

01:32:34.780 quote,

01:32:35.640 he says,

01:32:36.000 for every

01:32:36.380 complex

01:32:37.000 problem,

01:32:38.820 there's a

01:32:39.580 simple

01:32:41.180 solution,

01:32:42.700 which is

01:32:43.260 clear,

01:32:44.920 persuasive,

01:32:45.660 and wrong.

01:32:47.120 Yeah,

01:32:47.860 definitely.

01:32:48.700 And

01:32:48.920 problems are

01:32:51.200 hard.

01:32:52.500 It's

01:32:53.040 complicated,

01:32:54.320 as one

01:32:54.800 says.

01:32:55.840 And

01:32:56.160 several of

01:32:57.520 the things

01:32:57.900 that have

01:32:58.160 gone on,

01:32:58.620 one of

01:32:59.020 them was

01:32:59.580 post-modernism.

01:33:01.960 Post-modernism

01:33:03.380 was,

01:33:05.560 there were

01:33:05.940 some good

01:33:06.980 ideas

01:33:07.600 in its

01:33:09.280 foundation,

01:33:10.460 but then

01:33:11.480 they got

01:33:11.920 taken up

01:33:12.500 by people

01:33:13.120 who didn't

01:33:14.440 understand

01:33:15.000 them and

01:33:15.420 who

01:33:15.680 overused

01:33:18.060 them and

01:33:18.460 who went

01:33:19.560 wild and

01:33:20.860 said all

01:33:22.060 sorts of 1.00

01:33:22.540 stupid 1.00

01:33:23.080 things. 1.00

01:33:24.360 And the

01:33:25.420 scourge was

01:33:26.120 post-modernism.

01:33:27.180 I have an

01:33:27.640 article called

01:33:28.360 Post-modernism

01:33:29.520 and Truth

01:33:30.140 where I

01:33:31.060 really blame

01:33:32.440 post-modernism

01:33:33.560 for some

01:33:34.580 very bad

01:33:35.420 things.

01:33:36.560 But that

01:33:37.180 opened the

01:33:37.940 door for

01:33:39.000 the

01:33:40.880 identity

01:33:42.920 politics

01:33:43.600 that we

01:33:44.080 see today

01:33:44.820 and the

01:33:46.120 virtue

01:33:46.460 signaling.

01:33:49.480 Virtue

01:33:50.240 signaling,

01:33:50.900 yeah.

01:33:51.340 And the

01:33:51.700 virtue signaling

01:33:52.480 that we

01:33:52.880 see today,

01:33:55.100 these are

01:33:57.560 ideas that

01:34:00.240 are

01:34:00.560 running off

01:34:03.240 the rails

01:34:03.820 and we

01:34:05.520 have to

01:34:06.240 point that

01:34:07.540 out and

01:34:08.840 calmly

01:34:09.760 restore

01:34:11.260 academic

01:34:12.620 freedom and

01:34:14.180 a real

01:34:16.240 respect for

01:34:18.080 truth.

01:34:18.880 We could

01:34:19.400 modify the

01:34:20.540 Mencken

01:34:20.780 proposition

01:34:21.340 slightly because

01:34:22.300 I don't think

01:34:22.820 he was

01:34:23.100 pessimistic

01:34:23.780 enough.

01:34:25.160 So there's

01:34:26.040 two things

01:34:26.640 that the

01:34:27.120 simple,

01:34:27.660 elegant

01:34:27.940 solutions

01:34:29.080 offer.

01:34:32.280 First of

01:34:32.900 all,

01:34:33.060 they're

01:34:33.200 simple and

01:34:34.080 wrong.

01:34:35.180 But they

01:34:35.840 also offer

01:34:36.540 the holder

01:34:37.040 of those

01:34:37.480 ideas an

01:34:38.120 unearned sense

01:34:39.140 of their

01:34:39.500 moral superiority.

01:34:41.580 And so

01:34:41.820 they're

01:34:42.000 attractive in

01:34:42.680 two dimensions.

01:34:44.320 So the

01:34:45.040 idea that

01:34:45.580 power rules

01:34:46.400 everything,

01:34:47.000 which is a

01:34:47.420 post-modern

01:34:47.960 idea,

01:34:48.780 it's wrong

01:34:49.660 and it's

01:34:50.100 simple,

01:34:50.580 but it

01:34:50.860 also allows

01:34:52.080 the holders

01:34:52.660 of the

01:34:53.040 idea to

01:34:53.560 identify with

01:34:54.420 the oppressed

01:34:54.880 and to

01:34:55.460 proclaim their

01:34:56.080 moral virtue.

01:34:57.380 And that's

01:34:57.860 an almost

01:34:58.180 unbeatable

01:34:58.820 combination,

01:34:59.580 right?

01:35:00.180 You don't

01:35:00.580 have to do

01:35:01.000 any work

01:35:01.380 on the

01:35:01.660 cognitive

01:35:02.000 side because

01:35:03.320 you've got

01:35:03.660 all your

01:35:03.980 explanations

01:35:04.580 in one

01:35:05.180 cliche and

01:35:06.340 you don't

01:35:06.600 have to do

01:35:07.000 any work

01:35:07.400 on the

01:35:07.680 moral front

01:35:08.360 because as

01:35:09.080 long as

01:35:09.420 you're allied

01:35:09.880 with the

01:35:10.280 right side,

01:35:11.280 everything is

01:35:11.840 right between

01:35:12.400 you and

01:35:12.820 God,

01:35:13.560 so to

01:35:13.900 speak.

01:35:14.920 And so

01:35:15.180 that's an

01:35:15.600 incredibly

01:35:16.180 attractive

01:35:17.380 combination for

01:35:18.500 people who

01:35:19.100 are inclined

01:35:20.120 to take the

01:35:20.700 easy way out.

01:35:23.120 And it's

01:35:23.660 poisonous.

01:35:26.760 Yes.

01:35:27.080 All right,

01:35:28.920 sir,

01:35:29.160 look,

01:35:29.600 we've come

01:35:30.840 to the

01:35:31.180 end of

01:35:31.500 our 90

01:35:31.920 minutes and

01:35:32.440 I don't

01:35:32.860 want to

01:35:33.120 wear you

01:35:33.500 to a

01:35:33.820 frazzle and

01:35:34.560 I still

01:35:35.060 want to

01:35:35.340 talk to

01:35:35.680 you for

01:35:35.940 another half

01:35:36.480 an hour on

01:35:36.940 the Daily

01:35:37.300 Wire side.

01:35:38.020 And I'd

01:35:39.480 like to thank

01:35:40.020 you very much

01:35:40.620 for allowing me

01:35:41.320 to pick your

01:35:41.840 brains in

01:35:43.280 relationship to

01:35:44.380 your conceptualization

01:35:45.680 of, well,

01:35:46.600 let's say the

01:35:47.100 relationship between

01:35:48.040 the scientific

01:35:48.580 and the

01:35:49.720 moral and the

01:35:51.080 scientific and

01:35:51.680 the religious.

01:35:52.120 religious, I'd

01:35:52.980 like to talk

01:35:53.460 to you for

01:35:53.840 another three

01:35:54.440 hours because

01:35:55.160 there's many

01:35:55.740 other things I'd

01:35:56.600 be happy to

01:35:57.220 discuss, but

01:35:58.020 I don't want to

01:36:00.120 impose too much

01:36:00.920 on your time

01:36:01.600 and I want to

01:36:02.640 leave you. 0.93

01:36:02.800 So far, so good.

01:36:03.660 Yeah, yeah, okay.

01:36:04.460 Well, let's leave

01:36:05.460 it at that for

01:36:06.060 now.

01:36:06.700 It's possible if

01:36:07.820 you're inclined

01:36:08.440 that I'd like to

01:36:09.340 continue this

01:36:10.760 conversation at a

01:36:11.720 different date

01:36:12.300 because I'd like

01:36:13.480 you to, I'd

01:36:15.420 like to think

01:36:15.920 about the ideas

01:36:16.760 that we exchanged

01:36:17.720 and I'd like to

01:36:18.460 figure out how

01:36:18.940 we could continue

01:36:19.660 the discussion.

01:36:20.780 There's still some

01:36:21.400 things I'd like to

01:36:22.140 get to, but

01:36:22.740 they'd take a

01:36:23.280 long time to

01:36:23.860 unpack and, you

01:36:25.200 know, that might

01:36:25.660 be good for

01:36:26.300 another conversation

01:36:27.160 if you'd be

01:36:27.720 amenable to it.

01:36:29.120 So, for

01:36:30.180 everybody watching

01:36:30.940 and listening,

01:36:31.620 I'm going to

01:36:32.420 continue talking

01:36:33.180 to Dr.

01:36:33.800 Dennett on

01:36:34.320 the Daily Wire

01:36:34.900 side, as you

01:36:35.660 all know, and

01:36:36.280 I'm going to

01:36:36.680 walk him through

01:36:37.260 some autobiographical

01:36:38.520 recollections because

01:36:40.460 I'm very interested

01:36:41.600 and I'm very

01:36:42.140 interested in

01:36:43.100 finding out how

01:36:43.780 people's interests

01:36:45.020 make themselves

01:36:45.900 manifest across

01:36:46.880 time and so

01:36:47.540 that's what we'll

01:36:48.040 delve into on

01:36:48.720 the Daily Wire

01:36:49.240 side.

01:36:49.640 And so, maybe

01:36:51.660 you could just

01:36:52.260 close.

01:36:52.800 What are you

01:36:53.280 working on now?

01:36:55.060 I'm working on

01:36:56.120 the dangers of

01:36:57.500 AI, the dangers

01:36:58.940 of large language

01:37:00.040 models, and how

01:37:02.760 they are the

01:37:05.860 most dangerous

01:37:08.680 weapon yet.

01:37:09.980 Are you writing a

01:37:11.020 book about that?

01:37:11.300 More dangerous than

01:37:12.140 nuclear weapons.

01:37:13.320 Are you writing a

01:37:14.100 book about that?

01:37:14.740 Not a book I'm

01:37:17.440 writing.

01:37:18.180 I wrote an

01:37:19.260 article for the

01:37:20.520 Atlantic called

01:37:21.960 The Problem of

01:37:23.340 Counterfeit

01:37:24.020 People.

01:37:24.880 Right.

01:37:26.640 Right.

01:37:27.060 Counterfeit money

01:37:27.840 is dangerous.

01:37:30.120 It's been against

01:37:31.560 the law and it

01:37:32.420 should be.

01:37:34.020 Counterfeit people

01:37:35.000 are much more

01:37:35.900 dangerous and they 0.87

01:37:37.760 are now possible.

01:37:38.880 people, but

01:37:39.860 we can put in

01:37:46.060 place the

01:37:46.700 technology, and

01:37:47.620 I'm working

01:37:48.040 with people in

01:37:48.760 AI who know

01:37:50.640 how to do

01:37:51.120 this.

01:37:51.620 We can put in

01:37:52.720 place the

01:37:53.160 technology to

01:37:54.360 make it at

01:37:54.920 least very

01:37:55.940 difficult and

01:37:57.060 very costly in

01:37:58.260 terms of prison

01:37:59.300 sentences for

01:38:00.760 those who get

01:38:01.980 caught using

01:38:03.380 counterfeit

01:38:04.080 people.

01:38:04.540 people, and

01:38:06.340 we should

01:38:08.300 institute this

01:38:09.840 immediately, because

01:38:11.720 as Jeff Hinton

01:38:12.680 has said, these

01:38:16.420 things can

01:38:16.980 reproduce, and

01:38:18.320 we are about to

01:38:19.120 create a new

01:38:21.160 horde, a new

01:38:23.420 epidemic, a

01:38:25.920 pandemic of

01:38:27.280 counterfeit

01:38:27.940 people, which

01:38:29.720 are going to

01:38:30.520 destroy trust.

01:38:33.100 They can destroy

01:38:33.860 civilization.

01:38:35.420 You know, I

01:38:36.360 just spent two

01:38:37.100 days in D.C.,

01:38:38.480 interestingly enough,

01:38:40.400 talking to the

01:38:41.180 people I was

01:38:41.740 meeting with,

01:38:42.380 senators and

01:38:43.000 congressmen, really

01:38:44.160 about the dangers

01:38:45.020 of counterfeit

01:38:45.840 people.

01:38:46.960 So, obviously, we

01:38:48.260 share a concern in

01:38:49.100 that regard.

01:38:50.140 It's a very great

01:38:51.040 danger, and I've

01:38:52.640 been working on

01:38:53.820 it almost full

01:38:55.200 time.

01:38:55.880 Aha.

01:38:56.780 Aha.

01:38:57.440 Okay.

01:38:57.680 I'm retired, but

01:38:58.960 busier than ever.

01:39:00.260 Well, I'll keep

01:39:00.720 that in mind, because

01:39:01.740 we got some, we

01:39:03.420 got interesting

01:39:04.120 discussions going

01:39:05.140 in D.C., and

01:39:06.420 we're trying to

01:39:07.280 alert people to

01:39:08.040 the danger of

01:39:08.760 exactly the sorts

01:39:09.620 of things that

01:39:10.140 you're describing.

01:39:11.560 And so, I didn't

01:39:12.640 know that that was

01:39:13.400 an interest of

01:39:14.060 yours.

01:39:14.720 Anyways, let's

01:39:15.540 wrap this up.

01:39:16.260 Oh, yeah.

01:39:16.660 I'd like to thank

01:39:17.520 the film crew here

01:39:18.580 in D.C. for

01:39:20.580 making this possible,

01:39:21.900 for the Daily Wire

01:39:22.520 people for

01:39:23.100 facilitating the

01:39:23.920 conversation, for

01:39:24.660 you taking the

01:39:25.440 time and effort

01:39:26.480 necessary to have

01:39:27.500 this conversation,

01:39:28.680 and everybody who's

01:39:29.620 watching for their

01:39:30.400 time and attention.

01:39:31.180 And you can

01:39:33.060 join us on the

01:39:33.740 Daily Wire Plus

01:39:34.400 side for the

01:39:35.100 continuance of this

01:39:35.940 conversation.

01:39:36.980 Thank you very

01:39:37.460 much, sir.

01:39:37.940 It's been very

01:39:38.420 good to talk to

01:39:39.060 you and to

01:39:39.400 meet you.

01:39:40.420 Well, I've

01:39:40.900 enjoyed it.

01:39:42.180 Thank you.

01:39:42.680 Thank you.

01:39:42.740 Thank you.

01:39:51.980 Thank you.

01:39:53.320 Thank you.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - April 08, 2024

438. Aboutness, Secular vs. Religious Ethics, & Plato’s Aviary ｜ Dr. Daniel Dennett

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript