The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 441. Dreams, Stories, Psychedelics & Consciousness

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00:00:57.420 Hello everybody. I'm speaking today with Tor Nortranders, who's a Danish author.

00:01:14.620 I'm primarily interested in his work. He's written about 30 books.

00:01:18.060 The book I know best is probably his most famous book called The User Illusion.

00:01:22.240 And I've been thinking a lot about consciousness lately.

00:01:25.580 It's a, what would you say, a preoccupation of mine.

00:01:28.420 And I, a few decades ago, I spent a lot of time reading books on consciousness.

00:01:35.680 The User Illusion, Tor Nortrander's book, was the best one of the lot as far as I was concerned.

00:01:40.520 And it taught me a lot.

00:01:42.260 And so I figured the other day that I'd reach out to him.

00:01:45.960 We haven't talked before.

00:01:47.100 And so that was what happened.

00:01:50.040 And I got a chance to investigate his thought more elaborately.

00:01:54.880 We talked a lot about consciousness as a reducing function,

00:01:58.580 which is a very interesting way of conceptualizing it.

00:02:02.480 It's something akin to Eldest Huxley's speculations,

00:02:06.380 although he elaborated it in much more detail and much, and very usefully.

00:02:10.500 And also associated that with our ability to communicate verbally

00:02:14.060 in a way that I think was in keeping with the relevant neuropsychological literature

00:02:17.860 and what we know about perception.

00:02:19.940 So Nortrander's hit the target very specifically.

00:02:22.860 And I thought it'd be fun to talk to him about that and to share that with all of you.

00:02:26.760 And so that's exactly what's going to happen.

00:02:29.920 So, Mr. Nortrander, I really became interested in your work because of The User Illusion,

00:02:35.480 which I read quite a long time ago, probably about 10 years after you published it.

00:02:40.780 I believe it was published in 1991.

00:02:44.740 In Danish, yes.

00:02:46.980 In Danish, I think, in 98.

00:02:49.700 Oh, okay, okay.

00:02:50.980 So I see.

00:02:52.220 All right.

00:02:52.560 So it probably would have been around 98 when I read it.

00:02:55.920 I was quite interested in the psychology of consciousness.

00:03:02.060 But I had a hard time finding any books that I thought were really credible.

00:03:07.600 You know, I read Dan Dennett's book, and I also read Jeffrey Gray's book.

00:03:12.020 And Gray is a real genius.

00:03:14.620 He wrote a book called The Neuropsychology of Anxiety,

00:03:17.500 which I think is one of the best neuroscience books ever written, maybe the best.

00:03:21.400 But I didn't think his work on consciousness hit the mark the same way.

00:03:26.960 Your book, however, I thought it was unbelievably helpful.

00:03:32.400 And I want to focus on one element of it.

00:03:35.020 Maybe you can tell me how your thinking has developed.

00:03:38.160 I really liked your idea of, and let me make sure that I actually get this right.

00:03:44.540 But you talked about linguistic communication as a form of unpacking, right?

00:03:53.120 It was like a sequence of compressions.

00:03:56.660 Okay, so I want to walk through that,

00:03:58.860 because I don't know how much of this now is my idea and how much of it is yours,

00:04:02.680 because it's been so long since I read your book.

00:04:04.880 But so this is how it seems to me.

00:04:08.060 And then I'll have you comment on it.

00:04:10.020 So I've been trying to understand what it means to understand something.

00:04:16.340 We use that word, understand.

00:04:17.900 It's an interesting metaphor.

00:04:19.800 So I'm thinking about consciousness as a multi-tiered phenomenon.

00:04:25.560 So I'll start with a description of the world.

00:04:30.100 So we're in a...

00:04:32.240 You can imagine the material realm as a place of patterns.

00:04:36.400 And complex patterns, some of them last for a long time,

00:04:39.600 some of them are short-term, they differ in scale,

00:04:42.880 but the material world is a place of patterns.

00:04:45.860 And then on top of that, living creatures have a behavioral realm,

00:04:51.060 and they interact with one another,

00:04:53.240 but their behavior also codes the material world,

00:04:56.180 because we have to...

00:04:57.720 Just like if you're walking across a field,

00:04:59.760 your pathway is going to map the terrain.

00:05:03.800 The behavior of living creatures maps the physical patterns,

00:05:08.360 and it maps the interactions between...

00:05:11.400 Mostly between them and members of their own species.

00:05:15.940 Okay?

00:05:16.480 And then now in the human case,

00:05:17.840 you have two additional layers of what's real.

00:05:21.780 You have an imaginative realm,

00:05:23.740 and the imaginative realm seems to me to be where we capture the patterns.

00:05:28.880 We primarily capture the patterns of behavior in the imaginal realm.

00:05:33.040 That's what a dream does.

00:05:35.540 Because dreams have characters,

00:05:37.020 and the characters act out a drama of sorts,

00:05:40.760 more or less coherent.

00:05:42.440 We make that more coherent in literature and in drama,

00:05:45.880 in fiction.

00:05:47.700 And so that's the imaginal realm.

00:05:49.400 And then on top of that,

00:05:50.580 we have the linguistic realm.

00:05:52.620 And it seems to me,

00:05:53.620 and I think this is in keeping with your ideas,

00:05:55.720 that the linguistic maps the imaginal,

00:06:00.560 and it can be unpacked into the imaginal,

00:06:02.620 and the imaginal can transform the behavioral.

00:06:07.420 But all of that,

00:06:08.900 there's a harmony between all of that

00:06:10.960 that constitutes something like understanding.

00:06:13.720 And so the first thing I'd like to know is,

00:06:15.620 like,

00:06:16.220 does that bear any resemblance to your ideas?

00:06:19.100 And then what do you think of that conceptualization?

00:06:21.880 I think it's very complicated,

00:06:25.420 in a sense.

00:06:26.960 I would like to start with a more basic sort of observation,

00:06:33.620 which is the observation that,

00:06:36.560 if you look at our sensory,

00:06:39.460 if you look at the sensory system of a human being,

00:06:42.200 our eyes,

00:06:43.000 our skin,

00:06:43.720 our hearing,

00:06:45.180 and smell,

00:06:46.220 and taste,

00:06:46.720 and all that,

00:06:48.020 there's an enormous amount of information

00:06:49.920 that goes into us in every second.

00:06:53.700 And you can measure that.

00:06:54.820 And in fact,

00:06:55.320 that has been measured since mid-last century.

00:06:58.340 And people didn't really know

00:07:00.040 what to do with that information,

00:07:01.480 because it's a pretty high number.

00:07:03.740 Nowadays,

00:07:04.240 people are acquainted with the concept of bit,

00:07:07.360 the bit of information.

00:07:10.000 And it turns out that

00:07:11.620 it's something of the order of 11 million bits per second

00:07:16.100 enter our sensory apparatus.

00:07:18.580 On the other hand,

00:07:21.220 you can ask yourself,

00:07:23.120 how much can we be consciously aware of?

00:07:26.560 And again,

00:07:26.980 you can measure this.

00:07:28.040 There's been measurements of this

00:07:29.440 since the 60s of last century.

00:07:32.740 And the interesting thing about this number

00:07:35.680 for how much you could be aware of

00:07:37.540 is that it's so much smaller

00:07:39.420 than what we actually take in from the world around us.

00:07:42.580 like we take on the order of 16 bits per second

00:07:47.820 from the outside world

00:07:49.260 into our awareness.

00:07:52.280 But we take 11 million bits

00:07:54.860 from the outside world

00:07:56.040 into our system,

00:07:57.680 whatever that is.

00:07:58.480 So the problem

00:08:01.360 or the difficult thing to understand

00:08:04.060 is that there's a reduction

00:08:05.720 of a factor of 1 million

00:08:08.000 from the sensory intake

00:08:09.780 to what we are actually aware of.

00:08:11.760 Right.

00:08:12.260 And that seems immediately very surprising.

00:08:14.840 So somehow consciousness,

00:08:16.820 conscious awareness

00:08:17.540 is very different

00:08:18.680 from sensing the world.

00:08:20.880 When you talk about patterns

00:08:22.140 and recognizing patterns,

00:08:24.160 that will be the sensing of the world

00:08:25.980 that every animal would have to do.

00:08:28.180 And we do,

00:08:28.760 of course,

00:08:29.060 also to survive.

00:08:31.680 But what is that

00:08:33.200 which we are conscious about?

00:08:35.720 And it's a tiny little part

00:08:39.100 of what we take in.

00:08:40.740 And of course,

00:08:41.220 most of what the information

00:08:42.600 we take in at any second

00:08:44.740 is not really worth contemplating

00:08:48.660 in that second.

00:08:49.760 Like I see behind you windows

00:08:51.940 and it's obvious

00:08:53.440 that these windows

00:08:54.140 are not falling down on you.

00:08:56.580 And you don't have to reassure yourself

00:08:58.680 every second

00:08:59.300 they're not falling down,

00:09:00.320 they're not falling down,

00:09:01.180 they're not falling down.

00:09:02.420 That wouldn't be very helpful.

00:09:05.000 So you have to select

00:09:06.000 what you are aware of.

00:09:08.140 And the point about consciousness

00:09:10.060 then is,

00:09:11.580 and this is where

00:09:12.520 the linguistic part

00:09:13.760 enters the equation.

00:09:16.180 The point about consciousness

00:09:17.260 is that

00:09:17.960 if you take the origin

00:09:20.020 of the word consciousness,

00:09:21.660 it's from Latin,

00:09:22.600 it's conscira,

00:09:24.360 it's knowing together.

00:09:26.740 So when I take in

00:09:28.160 a lot of information

00:09:29.280 from the outside world

00:09:30.740 and I'm aware of a little of it,

00:09:33.880 it's very much so that

00:09:35.300 what I'm aware of

00:09:36.720 is what I share

00:09:37.800 with other people.

00:09:38.660 I point to something

00:09:40.660 and say,

00:09:41.220 it's red.

00:09:42.180 And you have a concept of red,

00:09:43.740 I have a concept of red.

00:09:46.260 And somehow we sort of calibrate

00:09:48.520 our way of seeing stuff.

00:09:51.140 But there's more

00:09:52.940 to the quality of red

00:09:54.220 than my eye actually sees.

00:09:55.840 So consciousness

00:09:56.640 is about sharing awareness

00:09:58.920 of the outer world

00:10:00.180 or the inner world

00:10:01.160 in a very, very compact fashion

00:10:04.740 compared to what

00:10:05.540 we actually take in.

00:10:06.520 And therefore,

00:10:07.860 the language is very important.

00:10:09.080 The social relationships

00:10:10.520 are very important.

00:10:11.880 The co-awareness

00:10:13.300 is very important.

00:10:14.680 And you could say

00:10:15.500 that the whole show

00:10:17.920 starts with pointing.

00:10:19.700 When you have infants,

00:10:21.700 you point.

00:10:23.020 And when they're old enough,

00:10:23.980 they actually understand

00:10:24.980 that the interesting thing

00:10:26.240 about pointing

00:10:26.820 is not the finger

00:10:27.760 but what it is pointing at.

00:10:30.320 Some animals understand that also.

00:10:32.020 But sort of directed,

00:10:34.420 shared attention

00:10:35.240 is very much

00:10:36.980 sort of the stuff

00:10:38.080 of consciousness.

00:10:40.080 So it's,

00:10:41.200 in a way,

00:10:41.600 it's a social thing.

00:10:43.440 It's something you share

00:10:44.580 with other people.

00:10:45.400 But of course,

00:10:45.900 you can have consciousness

00:10:46.860 on your own.

00:10:47.840 And most of us have

00:10:48.720 a lot of conscious awareness

00:10:50.300 without other people

00:10:51.660 being involved.

00:10:52.880 But that's sort of

00:10:54.000 the collective mind

00:10:57.240 that we have internalized

00:10:59.140 so that we can share

00:11:00.860 our experience

00:11:01.800 with other people

00:11:02.440 without actually

00:11:03.080 talking to them

00:11:03.940 or being present

00:11:05.420 together with them.

00:11:06.920 And so that was

00:11:08.000 a major theme

00:11:09.320 of this book

00:11:10.020 was trying to sort out

00:11:11.720 this thing

00:11:12.160 that we are

00:11:12.960 doing an enormous selection

00:11:15.220 in what we are aware of

00:11:16.820 in conscious awareness.

00:11:18.880 Okay,

00:11:19.560 so I want to,

00:11:20.280 I've got three or four things

00:11:21.940 to elaborate on

00:11:23.560 from that.

00:11:24.700 Okay,

00:11:24.920 so I want to lay out

00:11:25.820 another schema.

00:11:27.120 So the things,

00:11:27.980 here's what I'm going to,

00:11:29.940 dig into.

00:11:31.000 You talked about

00:11:32.120 pointing.

00:11:33.280 You talked about

00:11:34.240 the consciousness we have

00:11:35.640 when other people

00:11:36.320 aren't around.

00:11:37.360 You talked about

00:11:38.540 sharing and trade.

00:11:41.260 So let's,

00:11:42.060 let's dig into each of those.

00:11:43.400 So,

00:11:43.960 so I've spent a lot of time

00:11:46.400 trying to figure out

00:11:47.380 how stories,

00:11:48.520 what a story is

00:11:49.540 and how stories shape

00:11:52.220 what we

00:11:52.800 point our attention to.

00:11:55.340 Okay,

00:11:55.860 so I understand

00:11:56.700 that relationship

00:11:57.500 between pointing

00:11:58.360 and,

00:11:58.960 and verbalization,

00:12:01.240 but also pointing

00:12:02.000 and specification

00:12:02.700 of attention.

00:12:03.900 Okay,

00:12:04.160 so I'm going to,

00:12:05.060 I'm going to bring in

00:12:06.000 some other ideas

00:12:06.780 and I'll get you to

00:12:07.460 comment on them.

00:12:08.420 So I was quite taken

00:12:09.720 by my studies

00:12:11.340 of J.J. Gibson.

00:12:12.660 So Gibson

00:12:13.420 wrote a great book

00:12:14.580 called The Ecological

00:12:16.380 Approach to Visual Perception

00:12:17.820 and I think

00:12:19.020 and I think there's

00:12:19.240 some brilliant things

00:12:20.080 in it

00:12:20.360 and I've been

00:12:21.160 elaborating on Gibson's

00:12:22.540 ideas

00:12:22.940 in the context

00:12:24.380 of narrative

00:12:25.580 and I guess

00:12:26.680 narrative is relevant

00:12:27.580 to the idea

00:12:28.180 of sharing

00:12:28.680 because a lot

00:12:29.340 of what we share

00:12:30.000 are stories

00:12:30.620 and I think stories

00:12:31.640 are pointers

00:12:32.380 to value.

00:12:33.700 That's a way

00:12:34.120 of thinking about it.

00:12:34.880 So,

00:12:35.420 so let me lay out

00:12:36.260 a phenomenological world

00:12:37.680 for you

00:12:38.180 and tell me

00:12:38.800 what you think

00:12:39.280 about this.

00:12:40.560 So,

00:12:41.800 imagine you specify

00:12:43.160 a point

00:12:44.800 with your aim.

00:12:46.660 Okay,

00:12:46.820 so now you're

00:12:47.360 determining a destination.

00:12:49.940 This is what

00:12:50.560 bees do

00:12:51.960 when they communicate

00:12:52.840 about where the

00:12:53.920 pollen

00:12:54.600 and the nectar

00:12:55.780 is in flowers.

00:12:57.180 They specify

00:12:58.080 a treasure house

00:12:59.000 of value.

00:13:00.440 Okay,

00:13:00.720 so that's the

00:13:01.300 point,

00:13:02.360 that's the destination.

00:13:04.480 Okay,

00:13:04.840 so from Gibson's

00:13:07.300 perspective,

00:13:08.060 once you establish

00:13:09.000 a point,

00:13:10.740 then the world

00:13:11.500 lays itself out

00:13:12.620 as perceptible

00:13:13.900 objects

00:13:14.540 and some of those

00:13:16.040 are tools.

00:13:17.380 They're all

00:13:17.940 what he called

00:13:18.840 affordances.

00:13:20.020 They're all,

00:13:20.480 they're all the phenomena

00:13:21.900 that are now relevant

00:13:22.980 to that goal

00:13:23.940 and you can break them,

00:13:25.780 he broke them into,

00:13:26.920 roughly into two classes,

00:13:28.500 tools

00:13:28.880 and so a tool

00:13:30.680 is something you can use

00:13:31.640 to move yourself

00:13:32.920 along your pathway

00:13:34.580 and obstacles

00:13:36.120 and I've been thinking

00:13:38.100 about elaborating that.

00:13:39.400 So,

00:13:39.580 I think what happens

00:13:40.500 when you,

00:13:41.060 when you specify

00:13:42.240 a point

00:13:43.020 with your aim,

00:13:45.160 let's say,

00:13:46.980 your,

00:13:47.280 your perceptual system

00:13:48.900 produces a pathway

00:13:50.060 forward,

00:13:51.140 right?

00:13:52.180 That's your root

00:13:53.020 and then the root

00:13:54.700 is accompanied

00:13:55.460 by the things

00:13:56.780 that are relevant.

00:13:57.620 You,

00:13:57.780 you talked about

00:13:58.420 the fact that,

00:13:59.300 you know,

00:14:01.420 we,

00:14:01.680 we are taking in

00:14:02.500 11 million bits

00:14:03.720 per second

00:14:04.220 but compressing

00:14:04.980 that to 16,

00:14:06.020 almost all

00:14:07.160 that we perceive

00:14:08.120 is obscured

00:14:11.040 as irrelevant.

00:14:12.040 It's not even part

00:14:12.720 of our conscious

00:14:13.240 experience.

00:14:14.280 So,

00:14:14.560 what stands out?

00:14:15.580 Well,

00:14:15.960 pathways,

00:14:17.300 then tools

00:14:19.540 and obstacles.

00:14:20.220 So,

00:14:20.760 those would be

00:14:21.180 like material,

00:14:22.280 those would be

00:14:22.900 material entities

00:14:23.680 but then,

00:14:24.660 I think there's a parallel

00:14:25.740 in the social domain.

00:14:28.080 Friends and foes.

00:14:30.160 So,

00:14:30.780 friends

00:14:31.080 share your aim

00:14:32.560 and accompany you

00:14:33.300 along the way

00:14:33.920 and they can be

00:14:34.640 helpful

00:14:34.940 and foes

00:14:35.700 are human obstacles

00:14:37.980 but also

00:14:38.680 can obscure

00:14:40.580 or interfere

00:14:41.080 with your aim.

00:14:42.440 So,

00:14:43.400 tools,

00:14:43.900 friends,

00:14:45.680 obstacles,

00:14:46.960 foes

00:14:47.320 and then there's

00:14:47.860 one other element

00:14:48.840 which I think

00:14:49.400 is very cool.

00:14:50.080 I just figured

00:14:50.640 this out.

00:14:52.260 I think the other

00:14:53.180 thing that we perceive

00:14:54.160 are agents

00:14:54.820 of transformation

00:14:55.680 and those would be

00:14:57.700 like magical creatures

00:14:58.900 in a fairy tale

00:14:59.860 and an agent

00:15:01.080 of transformation

00:15:01.940 changes your aim

00:15:03.280 and the reason

00:15:04.340 they're magic

00:15:04.920 is because

00:15:05.540 the world

00:15:06.740 of the aim

00:15:07.820 that they specify

00:15:08.760 doesn't play

00:15:09.440 by the same rules

00:15:10.400 as the rule

00:15:11.220 of the aim

00:15:11.820 that you inhabit.

00:15:13.920 Right?

00:15:14.220 So,

00:15:14.980 okay,

00:15:15.460 so,

00:15:16.360 now,

00:15:16.660 the reason

00:15:17.620 I'm telling you this

00:15:18.620 that's relevant

00:15:19.400 to,

00:15:20.200 it's relevant

00:15:20.880 to the pointing idea

00:15:22.140 because that's kind

00:15:22.900 of the landscape

00:15:23.500 that emerges

00:15:24.220 as a consequence

00:15:25.020 of pointing

00:15:25.600 but it also

00:15:26.620 is relevant

00:15:27.200 to the sharing idea.

00:15:29.600 I've been thinking

00:15:30.600 that,

00:15:31.560 you know,

00:15:31.800 when we speak

00:15:32.560 with each other

00:15:33.240 we're offering

00:15:34.700 the fruits

00:15:36.180 of our imagination.

00:15:37.440 That's a way

00:15:37.860 of thinking about it.

00:15:38.840 Each word

00:15:39.480 is actually

00:15:40.100 a storehouse

00:15:40.980 of value

00:15:42.240 or a pointer

00:15:43.140 to value

00:15:43.840 and so,

00:15:45.060 you could say

00:15:45.600 the reason

00:15:46.040 consciousness evolved

00:15:47.180 and this seems

00:15:47.680 to be very much

00:15:48.360 in keeping

00:15:48.740 with your thinking

00:15:49.440 is that

00:15:49.900 we can offer

00:15:52.080 people pointers

00:15:53.340 to a destination

00:15:54.620 or specify

00:15:56.240 a destination

00:15:56.800 and again,

00:15:57.500 that's not much

00:15:58.100 different than bees

00:15:58.940 do when they're,

00:15:59.680 you know,

00:15:59.940 when they're doing

00:16:00.500 a dance

00:16:00.980 to specify

00:16:01.620 where the honey is

00:16:02.520 and so,

00:16:03.460 it's the fruits

00:16:04.080 of our imagination

00:16:04.880 that we can

00:16:05.800 encapsulate in words

00:16:06.980 and maybe we have

00:16:07.900 that private consciousness,

00:16:10.840 our ability

00:16:11.680 to think on our own

00:16:12.740 so that we can

00:16:13.820 build up a storehouse

00:16:14.940 of value

00:16:15.520 so that we actually

00:16:16.580 have something

00:16:17.060 to trade

00:16:17.600 with other people.

00:16:19.280 Okay,

00:16:19.620 so,

00:16:20.640 well,

00:16:21.040 so that's a take

00:16:22.340 on the things

00:16:22.980 that you just described

00:16:23.960 so I'd like to know

00:16:24.700 what you think

00:16:25.200 about that.

00:16:25.820 I come to think

00:16:27.940 of the paradigm

00:16:30.400 of predictive processing

00:16:32.480 which has been

00:16:33.280 very influential

00:16:35.720 in the past 10 years

00:16:36.880 in understanding

00:16:37.820 how we perceive

00:16:38.920 the world.

00:16:40.100 Carl Friston,

00:16:41.180 a British guy,

00:16:41.960 is one of the leaders

00:16:42.740 of the field

00:16:43.640 and the basic idea

00:16:45.700 there was a philosopher

00:16:46.600 involved very much

00:16:47.640 in explaining,

00:16:49.140 Jakob Hovey,

00:16:49.980 explaining this paradigm

00:16:51.600 of predictive processing

00:16:53.100 who was kind enough

00:16:53.780 to say that

00:16:54.340 the deep idea

00:16:56.480 behind it

00:16:57.000 actually was in this book

00:16:58.200 The User Illusion.

00:16:59.760 Oh,

00:17:00.300 oh,

00:17:00.640 that's cool,

00:17:01.440 that's cool.

00:17:02.100 It's nice of him

00:17:02.860 to say so.

00:17:03.780 Yeah,

00:17:03.980 yeah,

00:17:04.360 yeah.

00:17:04.880 But the point is

00:17:06.380 that what User Illusion

00:17:07.820 tries to say

00:17:08.640 is that

00:17:09.260 first,

00:17:10.520 we take in information

00:17:11.880 and then we create

00:17:13.880 a sort of a simulation

00:17:15.240 of what that information is

00:17:17.180 and then,

00:17:18.140 only then,

00:17:18.920 do we experience.

00:17:20.020 We don't experience.

00:17:21.020 Going online

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00:18:58.680 Experience the

00:18:59.500 take-in,

00:19:00.740 we experience our own

00:19:01.980 retelling

00:19:02.860 of what we take-in.

00:19:04.980 And predictive processing paradigm

00:19:06.560 is basically saying

00:19:08.940 that all we experience

00:19:11.100 when we go about

00:19:12.280 our stuff in the world

00:19:13.680 is our predictions

00:19:15.080 of what will happen next.

00:19:17.140 What will this guy do?

00:19:19.100 What will this monkey do?

00:19:21.200 Will there be a fault

00:19:22.600 in the terrain

00:19:23.220 when I walk there?

00:19:24.380 So it's all about predicting.

00:19:26.420 So in that sense,

00:19:27.420 it's all about storytelling.

00:19:29.000 Everything we know

00:19:30.260 about the world

00:19:31.100 is storytelling.

00:19:33.000 And then, of course,

00:19:33.740 it turns out very often

00:19:35.340 that our stories are wrong.

00:19:36.880 We are corrected.

00:19:38.580 We understand

00:19:40.140 that there was something wrong.

00:19:41.780 And so we correct

00:19:43.100 our storytelling.

00:19:44.520 We make it more

00:19:45.980 and more qualified.

00:19:47.880 And when we get

00:19:49.240 to know people,

00:19:50.180 we have a better

00:19:51.460 ability to know

00:19:54.000 what to expect

00:19:54.820 from them and so on.

00:19:56.020 But it's all

00:19:56.900 a question of

00:19:57.820 creating

00:19:58.760 a story

00:20:00.180 not inconsistent

00:20:02.180 with the information

00:20:03.500 we take in.

00:20:04.100 And that's one thing here

00:20:05.000 that I think

00:20:05.700 is very deep.

00:20:06.620 And that is,

00:20:07.380 if you take children,

00:20:08.320 they're afraid

00:20:10.060 of the dark.

00:20:12.220 You're going

00:20:12.800 to the forest

00:20:13.420 in the evening

00:20:13.940 as a kid

00:20:15.180 and you are scared

00:20:16.260 because of

00:20:18.380 what could be

00:20:19.100 in the dark.

00:20:20.220 If you go there

00:20:20.860 in the daytime,

00:20:21.420 you're not scared at all.

00:20:22.720 Why is that?

00:20:23.320 That's because

00:20:23.920 there's nothing

00:20:24.980 to contradict

00:20:25.860 the inner fantasies

00:20:28.380 of the kid

00:20:28.980 when it's dark.

00:20:30.480 There's no information

00:20:31.720 that runs counter

00:20:32.900 to the idea

00:20:34.140 of many,

00:20:34.700 many weird

00:20:35.600 trolls

00:20:36.280 and demons

00:20:36.960 out there.

00:20:38.120 But in the daylight,

00:20:39.600 there's so much

00:20:40.160 information

00:20:40.640 that contradicts

00:20:41.420 your ideas.

00:20:42.440 So in a way,

00:20:43.660 all of our

00:20:44.520 perception

00:20:45.320 of the world

00:20:46.120 is a hallucination

00:20:47.960 we create

00:20:48.880 under the condition

00:20:51.540 that it does not

00:20:52.560 contradict

00:20:53.080 the sensory data

00:20:54.140 we take in.

00:20:55.500 So we are constantly

00:20:56.560 telling stories.

00:20:58.400 So telling stories

00:20:59.620 is what perception

00:21:01.140 is all about.

00:21:02.420 And of course,

00:21:02.960 human beings

00:21:03.540 have taken this

00:21:04.240 to a higher level

00:21:05.600 than we expect

00:21:06.580 a mouse

00:21:07.420 to take it to.

00:21:09.080 But it's basically

00:21:09.960 the same phenomenon

00:21:11.020 that we try

00:21:12.720 to create

00:21:13.440 a consistent idea

00:21:14.840 of what the world

00:21:15.780 is like.

00:21:16.880 But it's

00:21:17.440 what we experience

00:21:19.120 is our own

00:21:20.140 dream,

00:21:21.080 if you like,

00:21:21.500 or our own fantasy

00:21:22.500 or,

00:21:23.460 better word,

00:21:24.440 is our own

00:21:25.040 hallucination.

00:21:25.880 So this will

00:21:29.720 explain all the

00:21:30.540 things we see

00:21:31.480 when the light

00:21:34.600 falls and you

00:21:35.600 enter into

00:21:36.800 twilight zone

00:21:38.060 and suddenly

00:21:39.440 there's not enough

00:21:40.320 information to

00:21:40.960 contradict all the

00:21:42.020 weird ideas you

00:21:42.820 have in your head.

00:21:44.600 Yeah,

00:21:45.100 yeah.

00:21:45.660 So you talked

00:21:46.400 about Friston.

00:21:47.540 So,

00:21:48.180 okay,

00:21:48.560 so I'm going to

00:21:49.140 go down that

00:21:49.740 rabbit hole for a

00:21:50.600 while.

00:21:50.840 First of all,

00:21:51.340 I interviewed him

00:21:52.100 for this podcast.

00:21:52.880 Second of all,

00:21:55.260 with two students

00:21:56.380 of mine,

00:21:57.560 Jacob Hirsch

00:21:58.560 and Raymond Marr,

00:21:59.420 we wrote a paper

00:22:00.220 about the same time

00:22:01.880 that Friston was

00:22:02.660 working on his

00:22:03.340 entropy theories

00:22:04.180 on anxiety

00:22:06.340 as an index

00:22:07.140 of entropy.

00:22:08.900 And so,

00:22:09.520 this is part of

00:22:10.140 what I talked

00:22:10.640 to Friston about.

00:22:11.520 Yeah,

00:22:11.780 yeah.

00:22:12.080 Well,

00:22:12.280 and it ties in

00:22:13.000 with this idea

00:22:13.800 of root

00:22:15.120 specification

00:22:15.940 to a treasure.

00:22:18.420 So,

00:22:20.120 Friston

00:22:20.480 pointed out

00:22:21.420 that

00:22:21.800 and this

00:22:23.360 was in

00:22:23.700 keeping

00:22:23.920 with the

00:22:24.280 work

00:22:24.480 that we

00:22:24.780 were doing

00:22:25.200 that if

00:22:25.580 you're

00:22:25.880 imagine

00:22:26.640 you've

00:22:27.020 specified

00:22:27.460 a route

00:22:27.980 to a

00:22:28.360 given

00:22:28.600 valuable

00:22:29.540 destination

00:22:30.280 you're

00:22:31.180 proceeding

00:22:31.560 along it

00:22:32.100 and all

00:22:32.380 of a sudden

00:22:32.740 there's

00:22:33.120 an obstacle

00:22:34.000 arises

00:22:34.540 that makes

00:22:35.540 the path

00:22:36.060 more complicated

00:22:36.980 and maybe

00:22:38.260 indefinitely

00:22:38.980 more complicated.

00:22:40.200 So,

00:22:40.540 you're driving

00:22:41.000 to work

00:22:41.400 and your

00:22:41.660 car quits.

00:22:42.940 Well,

00:22:43.180 you're not

00:22:43.460 going to

00:22:43.680 get to

00:22:44.020 work

00:22:44.420 and that

00:22:45.500 means

00:22:46.720 the complexity

00:22:47.980 of your

00:22:48.460 day

00:22:48.780 has radically

00:22:49.500 increased

00:22:50.040 especially

00:22:50.520 maybe if

00:22:51.280 you're on

00:22:51.640 the outs

00:22:51.980 with your

00:22:52.780 boss

00:22:53.320 plus

00:22:54.460 all the

00:22:55.140 other

00:22:55.560 routes

00:22:57.060 that are

00:22:57.840 dependent

00:22:58.260 on the

00:22:58.840 functionality

00:22:59.260 of your

00:22:59.780 car

00:23:00.120 have all

00:23:00.680 been thrown

00:23:01.500 into disarray.

00:23:02.940 That's an

00:23:03.640 entropy problem

00:23:04.580 and it's

00:23:05.300 marked by

00:23:05.800 anxiety.

00:23:06.980 So,

00:23:07.560 a lot of

00:23:08.040 negative emotion

00:23:08.780 is an

00:23:09.160 entropy

00:23:09.700 increase

00:23:10.380 marker.

00:23:10.980 But Friston

00:23:11.500 pointed out

00:23:12.060 something

00:23:12.440 fascinating.

00:23:13.320 See,

00:23:13.500 I hadn't

00:23:13.780 figured this

00:23:14.280 out which

00:23:14.820 was that

00:23:15.420 if you

00:23:18.000 move forward

00:23:18.880 to a

00:23:19.360 specified

00:23:19.820 destination,

00:23:20.900 so let's

00:23:21.240 say a

00:23:21.540 specified

00:23:21.920 treasure

00:23:22.380 house,

00:23:22.980 each step

00:23:23.940 you take

00:23:24.560 that works

00:23:25.380 decreases

00:23:26.400 entropy

00:23:26.940 because the

00:23:27.680 path to

00:23:28.380 the

00:23:28.680 treasure

00:23:29.020 house

00:23:29.400 is now

00:23:30.020 shorter

00:23:30.440 and requires

00:23:31.020 less energy

00:23:31.720 expenditure.

00:23:32.720 So he

00:23:33.220 could actually

00:23:33.800 relate both

00:23:34.520 positive and

00:23:35.280 negative emotion

00:23:36.080 to the

00:23:37.560 concept of

00:23:38.180 entropy.

00:23:38.700 And this

00:23:39.260 maps really

00:23:39.840 nicely on this

00:23:40.700 Gibsonian view

00:23:41.720 because if

00:23:42.880 you have

00:23:43.320 let's say

00:23:43.920 obstacles

00:23:45.300 and foes,

00:23:47.480 well they

00:23:47.860 elicit negative

00:23:48.660 emotion and

00:23:49.700 they tell you

00:23:50.300 that your

00:23:51.060 path is in

00:23:51.880 danger,

00:23:52.440 your pathway

00:23:52.940 or the

00:23:53.380 aim is in

00:23:54.100 danger.

00:23:55.000 And on the

00:23:55.440 positive emotion

00:23:56.180 side you have

00:23:56.840 tools and

00:23:57.440 friends and

00:23:58.020 they indicate

00:23:58.560 that the

00:23:59.780 pathway to

00:24:01.060 your destination

00:24:02.280 is clear and

00:24:04.260 maybe even more

00:24:05.000 efficient than

00:24:05.620 you'd hoped.

00:24:07.040 And so,

00:24:07.920 okay,

00:24:08.260 so there's

00:24:09.000 that.

00:24:09.980 So that's

00:24:10.500 cool because it

00:24:11.220 ties emotion all

00:24:12.140 the way down

00:24:12.560 to entropy

00:24:13.060 which is a

00:24:13.620 very fundamental

00:24:14.480 grounding of

00:24:15.280 the,

00:24:15.560 and it also

00:24:16.180 includes emotion

00:24:17.200 now inside the

00:24:18.180 narrative frame.

00:24:19.900 And so then

00:24:20.420 you mentioned

00:24:21.520 prediction and

00:24:22.680 so,

00:24:23.440 you know,

00:24:24.000 I mentioned

00:24:24.520 Jeffrey Gray

00:24:25.380 and Gray's

00:24:27.000 work on

00:24:28.080 anxiety is

00:24:29.280 based on a

00:24:30.060 prediction model.

00:24:31.440 But I

00:24:32.880 found that that

00:24:33.640 was inadequate

00:24:34.240 and I'll tell

00:24:35.000 you why and

00:24:35.500 you tell me

00:24:35.960 what you think

00:24:36.460 about this.

00:24:37.680 See,

00:24:38.240 the prediction

00:24:38.840 model,

00:24:39.320 the expectation

00:24:39.880 model has

00:24:40.720 kind of a

00:24:41.360 cold cognitive

00:24:42.500 element to it.

00:24:43.440 It's like you're

00:24:44.200 a calculating

00:24:44.820 machine and

00:24:46.160 what you're

00:24:46.720 trying to do

00:24:47.320 is minimize

00:24:48.360 discrepancy

00:24:49.380 between what

00:24:49.940 you expect

00:24:50.620 and what

00:24:50.980 plays out

00:24:51.460 in the

00:24:51.680 world.

00:24:52.680 But if you

00:24:53.480 can tweak

00:24:54.380 that slightly

00:24:55.220 and substitute

00:24:56.080 desire for

00:24:57.520 expectation,

00:24:59.160 and that way

00:24:59.840 you can pull

00:25:00.380 in all the

00:25:00.800 motivational

00:25:01.320 systems.

00:25:02.480 So,

00:25:03.160 one good way

00:25:04.060 of conceptualizing

00:25:05.420 motivation

00:25:06.080 as opposed

00:25:07.680 to emotion,

00:25:08.360 it's a rough

00:25:08.880 split,

00:25:09.220 is that

00:25:09.660 a motivation

00:25:10.740 system

00:25:11.460 sets a

00:25:12.920 goal.

00:25:14.820 So,

00:25:15.460 obviously,

00:25:16.220 lust does

00:25:16.840 that,

00:25:17.400 thirst does

00:25:18.060 that,

00:25:18.500 hunger does

00:25:19.120 that,

00:25:20.140 anger does

00:25:21.240 that,

00:25:22.000 and so it

00:25:22.540 specifies an

00:25:23.480 aim,

00:25:24.340 and then the

00:25:25.600 emotions,

00:25:26.280 the negative

00:25:26.620 and positive

00:25:27.140 emotions calibrate

00:25:28.160 in relationship

00:25:28.740 to that aim,

00:25:29.500 and so what

00:25:29.980 you're contrasting

00:25:33.020 is actually

00:25:33.600 desire specified

00:25:34.940 by motivation

00:25:35.860 rather than

00:25:36.560 like a

00:25:36.960 rationalistic

00:25:37.820 expectation.

00:25:39.660 And I like

00:25:40.360 that because

00:25:40.880 otherwise you're

00:25:41.920 in the

00:25:43.060 expectation

00:25:43.800 models or

00:25:44.840 the prediction

00:25:45.360 models,

00:25:46.760 motivation

00:25:47.360 doesn't have

00:25:48.060 a place,

00:25:48.680 and that's

00:25:49.060 a big

00:25:49.300 problem because

00:25:50.060 obviously there

00:25:51.080 are multiple

00:25:52.360 instinctual

00:25:53.380 motivational

00:25:53.940 systems,

00:25:54.700 and a lot

00:25:55.960 of the stories

00:25:56.640 we tell are

00:25:57.360 predicated on

00:25:58.220 those,

00:25:59.020 jealousy

00:25:59.380 stories or

00:26:00.260 quest stories

00:26:01.300 or rage

00:26:02.020 stories,

00:26:03.100 they're

00:26:03.500 predicated on

00:26:04.180 the operation

00:26:04.820 of these

00:26:05.100 fundamental

00:26:05.560 motivational

00:26:06.100 systems.

00:26:06.800 Okay,

00:26:07.060 so there

00:26:07.340 I tossed

00:26:08.300 at you

00:26:08.740 the entropy

00:26:09.880 issue from

00:26:11.020 Friston,

00:26:12.020 and then also

00:26:12.620 the issue

00:26:13.060 of motivation.

00:26:14.520 So I'd

00:26:15.400 like your

00:26:15.700 thoughts on

00:26:16.200 those ideas.

00:26:19.200 I think

00:26:19.880 you are very

00:26:20.480 right in

00:26:21.180 saying that

00:26:21.880 it easily

00:26:23.200 becomes too

00:26:23.920 technical if

00:26:24.700 you think

00:26:24.960 about prediction

00:26:25.700 and testing

00:26:27.900 your predictions,

00:26:29.240 but emotions

00:26:31.000 are basically

00:26:32.300 all about

00:26:32.860 testing your

00:26:33.600 predictions.

00:26:34.060 emotions.

00:26:34.580 So the

00:26:35.360 emotional

00:26:35.760 language is

00:26:36.660 another way

00:26:37.300 of expressing

00:26:37.920 the same

00:26:38.520 mechanism,

00:26:39.780 that you

00:26:40.140 feel fondness

00:26:41.640 for someone

00:26:42.240 because you

00:26:43.160 expect good

00:26:44.320 stuff to come

00:26:44.980 out of your

00:26:45.440 interaction,

00:26:46.160 or you fear

00:26:47.500 someone because

00:26:48.300 you fear that

00:26:49.680 bad things will

00:26:50.820 come out,

00:26:51.220 that these are

00:26:51.840 emotions.

00:26:52.940 So basically

00:26:53.840 what you see

00:26:55.420 when you perceive

00:26:56.320 something is

00:26:57.600 already packed

00:26:58.460 with emotions.

00:26:59.220 there's an

00:27:01.000 example of

00:27:01.780 if you go

00:27:04.140 into a

00:27:05.120 forest and

00:27:06.680 there's a

00:27:07.120 small tree

00:27:08.380 trunk there,

00:27:09.680 the lowest

00:27:10.960 part of the

00:27:11.480 tree,

00:27:12.460 it's fallen

00:27:13.520 over in the

00:27:14.120 storm,

00:27:14.520 but there's

00:27:14.860 a small part

00:27:15.980 of the tree

00:27:16.540 trunk left

00:27:17.220 in the

00:27:18.960 forest,

00:27:20.100 and you

00:27:20.880 come there

00:27:21.320 in bad

00:27:22.540 lighting and

00:27:23.120 you see that

00:27:23.720 thing and it

00:27:24.340 looks to you

00:27:25.060 like a

00:27:25.420 troll,

00:27:25.740 like some

00:27:27.780 alien,

00:27:28.800 weird

00:27:29.440 creature.

00:27:32.920 Now what

00:27:33.640 would be the

00:27:34.240 rational thing

00:27:34.940 to do here

00:27:35.520 for a

00:27:36.160 perception

00:27:36.620 system?

00:27:37.300 Would that

00:27:37.600 be to

00:27:38.160 analyze

00:27:39.360 closely the

00:27:40.440 thing and

00:27:40.800 then decide

00:27:41.680 no,

00:27:42.280 it's the

00:27:42.620 tree,

00:27:43.340 it's the

00:27:44.100 bottom of

00:27:44.520 a tree,

00:27:45.140 it's not

00:27:45.520 a troll?

00:27:46.960 Or would

00:27:47.300 it be to

00:27:47.700 say,

00:27:48.060 oops,

00:27:48.560 it's a

00:27:49.020 troll,

00:27:49.380 I better

00:27:49.700 react on

00:27:50.140 that?

00:27:50.400 Of course,

00:27:50.960 the meaningful

00:27:51.920 thing is to

00:27:52.520 start with

00:27:53.240 the worst

00:27:54.100 hypothesis in

00:27:55.340 that

00:27:55.540 situation.

00:27:56.280 It's a

00:27:56.580 troll.

00:27:57.980 Because if

00:27:58.920 it is in

00:27:59.380 fact the

00:28:00.840 remnants of

00:28:01.460 a tree,

00:28:02.160 well,

00:28:02.520 it'll stay

00:28:03.760 that way,

00:28:04.640 so you

00:28:04.900 have time

00:28:05.240 to find

00:28:05.600 out.

00:28:06.360 So the

00:28:07.300 way we

00:28:07.680 perceive

00:28:08.100 things is

00:28:08.880 you're,

00:28:09.980 of course,

00:28:10.220 familiar with

00:28:10.680 the gestalt

00:28:11.340 psychology,

00:28:12.260 the idea

00:28:12.700 that it's

00:28:13.620 the whole

00:28:14.380 creature,

00:28:16.140 it's a

00:28:16.420 whole body

00:28:19.040 of the

00:28:19.420 creature you

00:28:19.940 see rather

00:28:20.740 than details.

00:28:21.960 We don't

00:28:22.320 sort of

00:28:22.740 analyze the

00:28:24.240 image of

00:28:24.740 a person

00:28:25.240 from one

00:28:25.800 end to

00:28:26.140 the other.

00:28:26.680 We

00:28:26.780 immediately

00:28:27.400 see something

00:28:28.280 and we

00:28:29.240 immediately

00:28:29.580 have an

00:28:29.980 emotional

00:28:30.400 response to

00:28:31.140 that.

00:28:31.920 And we

00:28:32.220 all know

00:28:32.700 that we

00:28:33.320 meet people

00:28:34.140 in life

00:28:35.440 that in

00:28:36.220 the split

00:28:36.660 second we

00:28:37.220 know,

00:28:37.620 I like

00:28:37.980 this guy,

00:28:38.660 I don't

00:28:39.040 like this

00:28:39.560 guy,

00:28:39.900 I like

00:28:40.280 this woman,

00:28:40.860 I don't

00:28:41.180 like this

00:28:41.600 woman.

00:28:42.100 We are

00:28:42.520 very fast

00:28:43.520 in our

00:28:44.560 emotional

00:28:46.520 response to

00:28:47.460 what we

00:28:47.860 take in.

00:28:48.980 So yes,

00:28:50.060 it certainly

00:28:50.740 is a very

00:28:51.740 emotional

00:28:52.200 process.

00:28:52.740 part of

00:28:55.760 the reason

00:28:56.200 that when

00:28:56.920 people

00:28:57.240 analyze this

00:28:58.080 prediction

00:28:58.760 processing

00:29:00.120 model as

00:29:02.000 very

00:29:02.340 intellectual

00:29:02.780 is that

00:29:03.360 it was

00:29:03.940 inspired very

00:29:04.760 much by

00:29:05.160 the training

00:29:05.600 of robots

00:29:06.300 because to

00:29:07.480 train robots

00:29:08.200 you had to

00:29:08.780 use the

00:29:09.320 same idea

00:29:10.080 of moving

00:29:13.120 towards something

00:29:13.880 that you

00:29:14.320 liked.

00:29:15.420 Yes,

00:29:15.860 right.

00:29:16.020 All the AI

00:29:17.180 systems do

00:29:17.960 that.

00:29:18.480 They're all

00:29:19.040 goal-trained,

00:29:19.760 all of

00:29:20.260 them,

00:29:20.420 and that's

00:29:20.740 why they

00:29:21.040 can now

00:29:21.400 mimic human

00:29:22.140 cognition,

00:29:23.060 even

00:29:23.320 linguistically.

00:29:24.640 Right,

00:29:24.940 it's very

00:29:25.360 interesting,

00:29:26.040 that's right,

00:29:26.820 it's all

00:29:27.260 reinforcement

00:29:27.800 learning towards

00:29:28.680 a goal.

00:29:30.160 Exactly,

00:29:31.140 yes.

00:29:32.260 And we

00:29:32.520 need to do

00:29:32.900 that,

00:29:33.480 but I

00:29:34.640 want you

00:29:35.020 to say

00:29:35.240 on the

00:29:35.760 pointing,

00:29:39.200 what you

00:29:40.500 were saying

00:29:41.320 about pointing

00:29:41.880 reminded me

00:29:42.560 of something

00:29:42.940 I read in

00:29:43.480 a book

00:29:43.780 many years

00:29:44.200 ago by

00:29:44.660 Lyle Watson,

00:29:45.780 a British

00:29:46.380 biologist,

00:29:47.860 who's most

00:29:48.480 famous for

00:29:49.320 his book

00:29:49.760 Supernature,

00:29:51.180 that he

00:29:51.420 wrote in

00:29:51.760 the late

00:29:52.120 70s,

00:29:53.040 I think.

00:29:54.060 He's very

00:29:54.640 interested in

00:29:55.240 supernatural

00:29:55.780 phenomena,

00:29:56.540 not that it's

00:29:57.320 what I find

00:29:58.380 personally most

00:29:59.060 interesting,

00:29:59.600 but he's very

00:30:00.340 interested in

00:30:00.940 that,

00:30:01.340 and he has

00:30:01.720 one fantastic

00:30:02.480 example in

00:30:03.280 that book,

00:30:04.180 and that is

00:30:04.720 if you have

00:30:05.400 the egg

00:30:05.980 of a

00:30:07.320 frog,

00:30:08.900 and the

00:30:10.820 egg to

00:30:11.680 become a

00:30:13.720 new frog

00:30:14.320 needs the

00:30:15.200 sperm from

00:30:15.940 the male

00:30:16.640 frog,

00:30:17.040 and it

00:30:19.180 turns out

00:30:19.580 it doesn't

00:30:20.040 really need

00:30:20.560 the DNA

00:30:21.340 from the

00:30:22.000 sperm,

00:30:22.940 what it

00:30:23.320 needs is

00:30:23.920 the

00:30:24.260 asymmetry

00:30:25.040 introduced

00:30:25.480 by the

00:30:26.140 sperm

00:30:26.420 moving

00:30:28.460 towards the

00:30:29.460 egg,

00:30:30.280 so it's

00:30:30.740 more like

00:30:31.280 the moment

00:30:33.420 that you

00:30:33.960 introduce the

00:30:34.700 asymmetry

00:30:35.440 into the

00:30:36.020 spherical

00:30:36.460 egg,

00:30:37.960 this is

00:30:39.000 the point,

00:30:39.860 then the

00:30:40.200 egg will

00:30:40.520 reorganize

00:30:41.200 and become

00:30:41.760 a very

00:30:44.220 small

00:30:44.680 embryo

00:30:46.260 for a

00:30:46.600 frog,

00:30:47.360 so I'm

00:30:50.460 not trying

00:30:50.840 to say

00:30:51.280 that sperm

00:30:51.920 is not

00:30:52.280 relevant to

00:30:52.860 frogs or

00:30:53.460 humans,

00:30:54.040 it's not

00:30:54.320 that at

00:30:54.700 all,

00:30:55.980 but it's

00:30:56.680 more that

00:30:57.080 the symmetry

00:30:57.820 breaking,

00:30:59.160 you have a

00:30:59.640 sphere and

00:31:00.580 you introduce

00:31:01.280 this is the

00:31:02.060 difference,

00:31:03.180 this is the

00:31:03.820 point,

00:31:04.600 and all

00:31:04.900 the time

00:31:05.380 will.

00:31:05.580 So that's

00:31:05.620 like a

00:31:05.900 reduction,

00:31:06.540 well that's

00:31:07.000 like the

00:31:07.340 reduction that

00:31:08.100 consciousness

00:31:08.560 consists of,

00:31:10.180 and that's

00:31:11.260 a point,

00:31:13.600 so a

00:31:14.620 a couple

00:31:15.840 of things,

00:31:16.300 I want

00:31:16.700 to talk

00:31:18.260 about your

00:31:19.060 idea that

00:31:20.600 children

00:31:21.060 hallucinate

00:31:22.500 terror in

00:31:23.980 the face

00:31:24.460 of lax

00:31:25.420 sensory

00:31:25.900 information,

00:31:26.780 well that's

00:31:27.880 a good

00:31:28.120 definition of

00:31:28.900 the negativity

00:31:29.560 bias,

00:31:30.300 right,

00:31:30.680 and the

00:31:31.320 idea would

00:31:31.840 be,

00:31:32.920 well if

00:31:33.220 you can't

00:31:33.980 tell what's

00:31:34.760 going on,

00:31:36.360 the worst

00:31:37.740 case outcome

00:31:38.340 is you die

00:31:39.000 painfully,

00:31:40.300 and immediately,

00:31:41.460 and since

00:31:43.440 that ends

00:31:44.500 the whole

00:31:44.880 game you

00:31:45.460 should be

00:31:45.860 very attuned

00:31:47.860 to that,

00:31:49.120 and so as

00:31:50.040 you pointed

00:31:50.500 out,

00:31:51.620 misapprehending

00:31:52.440 a tree

00:31:52.860 stump as

00:31:53.380 a troll

00:31:53.900 is a

00:31:55.020 zero,

00:31:55.500 almost a

00:31:56.140 zero cost

00:31:56.720 mistake,

00:31:57.380 misapprehending

00:31:58.220 a troll as

00:31:59.280 a tree

00:31:59.600 stump,

00:32:00.380 that means

00:32:00.880 you're dead,

00:32:01.840 right,

00:32:02.180 and so,

00:32:02.560 and that's

00:32:02.880 really relevant

00:32:03.440 because people

00:32:04.060 have this

00:32:04.520 pronounced

00:32:04.840 negativity

00:32:05.440 bias,

00:32:06.440 and you

00:32:06.800 can imagine

00:32:07.280 too that in

00:32:07.920 a landscape

00:32:08.540 that where

00:32:09.580 the sensory

00:32:10.200 information is

00:32:11.000 poorly

00:32:11.280 specified,

00:32:13.480 the mapping

00:32:14.600 faculty of

00:32:17.900 the imagination

00:32:18.740 has free

00:32:19.480 reign,

00:32:20.380 and the

00:32:21.140 fact of

00:32:21.700 that free

00:32:22.160 reign,

00:32:22.640 that's a

00:32:22.820 high entropy

00:32:24.500 state in

00:32:25.700 and of

00:32:25.920 itself,

00:32:26.900 right,

00:32:27.500 because if

00:32:27.940 you don't

00:32:28.440 know where

00:32:28.920 you are

00:32:29.520 or what's

00:32:30.220 going on,

00:32:30.940 anything

00:32:31.320 could be

00:32:31.840 happening,

00:32:32.700 and anything

00:32:33.900 isn't

00:32:34.440 emotionally

00:32:34.920 neutral,

00:32:35.780 it's

00:32:36.120 terrifying.

00:32:37.580 A story

00:32:38.280 that's

00:32:38.720 pertinent

00:32:39.200 to that

00:32:39.740 and also

00:32:40.400 to your

00:32:40.920 interest in

00:32:42.640 anxiety

00:32:43.200 is a

00:32:44.460 concept

00:32:44.940 from

00:32:45.820 Danish

00:32:46.980 doctors

00:32:47.840 in the

00:32:49.260 1700s

00:32:49.960 and 1800s

00:32:51.000 in Greenland,

00:32:52.740 you know,

00:32:53.080 Greenland is

00:32:54.040 part of the

00:32:54.480 Danish kingdom,

00:32:55.080 and we had

00:32:57.480 doctors going

00:32:58.260 up there to

00:32:58.860 help people

00:32:59.960 there,

00:33:00.800 and they

00:33:01.580 observed a

00:33:02.400 weird phenomenon

00:33:03.060 they call

00:33:03.720 kayak angst,

00:33:04.960 that's Danish

00:33:05.580 for kayak

00:33:06.400 anxiety.

00:33:07.180 the Greenlandish

00:33:09.720 people went

00:33:11.700 out in

00:33:12.060 kayaks to

00:33:12.780 hunt seal

00:33:13.420 and other

00:33:13.860 stuff,

00:33:14.880 and they

00:33:15.260 were very

00:33:15.940 skilled and

00:33:16.880 able and

00:33:18.100 clever people,

00:33:20.740 but sometimes

00:33:21.500 they suddenly

00:33:22.020 had a very

00:33:22.740 strong

00:33:24.140 anxiety

00:33:26.620 episode,

00:33:27.320 and they

00:33:28.020 refused to

00:33:28.660 go ever

00:33:29.120 again out

00:33:29.720 in the

00:33:30.200 kayak,

00:33:30.720 which is

00:33:31.080 pretty bad

00:33:32.840 if that's

00:33:34.860 your living,

00:33:35.980 going out

00:33:36.780 in the

00:33:37.000 kayak,

00:33:37.500 hunting for

00:33:38.440 seals and

00:33:39.440 other stuff.

00:33:40.760 And Danish

00:33:41.600 doctors said,

00:33:42.240 oh, that's

00:33:42.760 just because

00:33:43.240 they drink

00:33:43.700 too much

00:33:44.120 or they

00:33:44.460 have too

00:33:44.840 much coffee

00:33:45.400 or whatever,

00:33:46.480 but it

00:33:47.220 turned out

00:33:47.840 that it's

00:33:48.880 a true

00:33:49.440 phenomenon

00:33:49.880 in the

00:33:50.420 sense,

00:33:51.300 it has

00:33:52.060 no simple

00:33:52.840 explanation

00:33:53.380 other than

00:33:54.180 the fact

00:33:54.760 that if

00:33:55.380 you sit

00:33:55.780 on a

00:33:56.120 kayak

00:33:56.560 and the

00:33:58.140 sky is

00:33:58.640 blue and

00:33:59.420 the ocean

00:33:59.940 is blue

00:34:00.480 and everything

00:34:01.240 is blue,

00:34:01.820 you suddenly

00:34:03.520 lose

00:34:04.120 orientation

00:34:05.980 and you

00:34:08.260 see weird

00:34:08.840 things

00:34:09.160 happening.

00:34:10.580 Pilots

00:34:11.220 report the

00:34:12.000 same thing

00:34:12.480 when they

00:34:12.800 fly into

00:34:13.280 clouds,

00:34:15.880 they lose

00:34:16.520 orientation

00:34:17.720 and they

00:34:18.320 suddenly see

00:34:19.160 weird stuff.

00:34:20.460 You have

00:34:20.780 John Lilly

00:34:21.440 putting people

00:34:22.820 in the

00:34:23.200 60s in

00:34:23.980 these

00:34:24.500 isolation

00:34:25.080 tanks

00:34:25.640 with

00:34:26.660 body-warm

00:34:27.440 water and

00:34:28.040 no sound,

00:34:28.720 no vision,

00:34:29.960 no anything,

00:34:30.740 and after a

00:34:31.440 few hours,

00:34:31.920 they start

00:34:32.260 hallucinating.

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00:35:43.440 Weird stuff.

00:35:45.140 You don't have

00:35:45.580 to use LSD

00:35:47.480 that will

00:35:48.200 hallucinate just

00:35:49.080 if you take

00:35:49.860 away that

00:35:50.300 sensory experience.

00:35:52.640 Yeah, well,

00:35:53.160 you're pointing

00:35:53.860 to something

00:35:54.460 very important.

00:35:55.360 there, which

00:35:55.920 is that

00:35:56.440 pointlessness

00:35:58.240 is chaotic

00:36:00.300 and anxiety

00:36:00.940 provoking

00:36:01.460 a priori.

00:36:03.100 This is a

00:36:03.600 really useful

00:36:04.120 thing to know

00:36:04.900 ethically and

00:36:06.760 psychologically

00:36:07.400 because part

00:36:08.920 of what it

00:36:09.360 means is that

00:36:10.060 the point

00:36:10.820 constrains

00:36:12.140 terror.

00:36:13.360 Like, it's

00:36:14.180 better than

00:36:14.640 that if

00:36:15.060 Friston's

00:36:15.880 model is

00:36:16.300 right, not

00:36:16.780 only does

00:36:17.180 the point

00:36:17.760 constrain

00:36:18.920 existential

00:36:19.580 terror, but

00:36:20.280 it also

00:36:20.840 elicits

00:36:21.600 hope.

00:36:22.680 And so

00:36:23.000 that would

00:36:23.520 mean to

00:36:23.900 some degree

00:36:24.380 that the

00:36:24.760 sharper the

00:36:25.320 point, and

00:36:25.840 this is sort

00:36:26.300 of analogous

00:36:26.860 to the

00:36:27.180 sperm idea,

00:36:28.260 the sharper

00:36:28.740 the point,

00:36:30.140 the more,

00:36:30.860 what would

00:36:31.700 you say,

00:36:32.420 the more

00:36:32.780 promising and

00:36:33.560 the less

00:36:33.940 threatening the

00:36:34.640 terrain.

00:36:35.540 Right, so

00:36:35.980 I don't know

00:36:36.620 if you know

00:36:37.020 this, you

00:36:37.380 probably do,

00:36:38.220 but you

00:36:38.520 know the

00:36:38.840 word sin

00:36:39.940 is derived

00:36:41.820 from an

00:36:42.240 archery term.

00:36:44.580 And yeah,

00:36:45.200 the archery term

00:36:45.960 is Greek.

00:36:46.580 Actually, the

00:36:47.180 derivation is

00:36:47.920 the same in

00:36:48.540 three languages.

00:36:49.900 Three separate

00:36:50.540 languages came

00:36:51.280 to the same

00:36:51.740 conclusion,

00:36:52.400 Aramaic, if

00:36:53.080 I remember

00:36:53.460 correctly, Hebrew

00:36:54.660 and Greek.

00:36:55.660 The Greek

00:36:56.160 term is

00:36:56.660 hamartia, and

00:36:58.100 hamartia means

00:36:58.960 to miss the

00:36:59.820 target.

00:37:01.620 And so, right,

00:37:02.560 to sin is to

00:37:03.760 misspecify your

00:37:05.100 aim, right?

00:37:06.500 And the worst

00:37:07.080 sin, of course,

00:37:07.720 would be to aim

00:37:08.260 in the opposite

00:37:08.780 direction, or

00:37:09.480 perhaps not to

00:37:11.020 aim at all,

00:37:12.060 right?

00:37:12.260 There's some

00:37:12.640 ambiguity there.

00:37:13.520 Both of those

00:37:14.020 are very bad,

00:37:14.800 but I think we

00:37:15.880 actually understand

00:37:16.820 this neurophysiologically.

00:37:18.180 It's much in

00:37:19.260 keeping with

00:37:19.700 what you just

00:37:20.300 said.

00:37:21.180 That kayak

00:37:21.900 anxiety, my

00:37:22.860 wife experienced

00:37:23.800 that once when

00:37:24.580 she was swimming.

00:37:26.500 She had the

00:37:27.840 sense that she

00:37:29.220 became suddenly

00:37:30.020 aware of the

00:37:30.960 cavernous volume

00:37:32.040 of the lake

00:37:32.880 that she was

00:37:33.460 in.

00:37:34.540 And it

00:37:35.180 didn't scare

00:37:36.860 her so much

00:37:37.400 she never swam

00:37:38.160 again, but it

00:37:38.720 scared her enough

00:37:39.500 so that she

00:37:41.160 talked about it

00:37:41.920 for a couple of

00:37:42.600 years when she

00:37:43.360 went swimming.

00:37:44.440 But it sounds,

00:37:45.500 it's so interesting,

00:37:46.600 it's that sudden

00:37:48.000 realization of the

00:37:50.580 expansiveness of

00:37:51.760 everything.

00:37:52.680 You know, here's a

00:37:53.700 weird side note

00:37:56.080 from that.

00:37:57.620 In the story of

00:37:58.500 Exodus, when the

00:38:01.420 Israelites are lost

00:38:02.680 and aimless in the

00:38:04.460 desert, they get all

00:38:05.940 fractious and bitchy

00:38:07.120 continually, and they

00:38:08.140 rebel, and they

00:38:09.560 behave very, very

00:38:10.380 badly.

00:38:11.080 They mis-aim

00:38:11.960 constantly.

00:38:13.480 And at one

00:38:14.780 point, Moses, their

00:38:16.380 leader, is very

00:38:17.160 upset with them, and

00:38:18.560 he retreats away from

00:38:20.440 them along with God,

00:38:22.080 but keeps his faith

00:38:23.940 and his point, his

00:38:25.000 direction.

00:38:25.920 And as a reward, God

00:38:27.320 decides to show

00:38:29.820 himself a little bit

00:38:30.860 more to Moses.

00:38:32.260 But he does something

00:38:33.260 odd when he does that.

00:38:34.280 He puts Moses in the

00:38:35.380 cleft of a rock, so he

00:38:37.320 can hardly see anything,

00:38:38.700 and when he walks by, he

00:38:40.060 just lets Moses see us

00:38:41.300 back.

00:38:42.660 And part of that, the

00:38:43.940 reason I'm bringing that

00:38:44.660 up, because that's

00:38:45.420 protection.

00:38:46.480 That's protection against

00:38:47.820 kayak anxiety.

00:38:49.840 Right?

00:38:50.260 Well, imagine what would

00:38:51.580 happen if we all of a

00:38:52.700 sudden became aware of

00:38:54.080 the 11 million bits per

00:38:55.660 second instead of the

00:38:56.800 16.

00:38:58.020 And even that 11

00:38:59.200 million is a compressed

00:39:00.420 version of actually

00:39:01.340 what's there.

00:39:02.480 Right?

00:39:02.760 Because even that

00:39:03.620 itself is highly

00:39:05.200 screened.

00:39:06.740 So, have you looked at

00:39:07.960 the psychedelic research

00:39:09.360 pertaining to

00:39:10.380 perception?

00:39:11.040 Okay, tell me what,

00:39:12.360 because it sounds

00:39:13.240 similar, right?

00:39:14.460 It sounds like what's

00:39:15.340 happening with

00:39:15.860 psychedelic experience is

00:39:17.100 that the domain of the

00:39:19.060 narrowed consciousness

00:39:20.160 expands, and you get a

00:39:22.700 massive increase in

00:39:24.160 positive emotion because

00:39:25.280 of that, but also a

00:39:26.220 potential massive increase

00:39:27.420 in negative emotion.

00:39:28.340 The whole emotional

00:39:28.960 landscape multiplies.

00:39:30.660 And does it seem to you

00:39:32.240 logical that that is a

00:39:33.680 movement that's

00:39:35.000 neurologically induced

00:39:36.440 towards, like, away from

00:39:39.340 the 16 bits per second

00:39:40.980 more to the 11 million?

00:39:44.160 Yes, and I think

00:39:45.220 Aldous Huxley in his book,

00:39:47.120 Dolls of Perception from

00:39:48.320 the 50s or 60s, that I

00:39:51.400 quote in the User Illusion

00:39:54.120 book, he used mescaline, I

00:39:57.180 think it was.

00:39:57.920 Yeah, it was mescaline.

00:39:59.240 And talked about this

00:40:00.500 opening of the mind.

00:40:03.660 And by many, of course,

00:40:05.060 he's seen a sort of very

00:40:06.420 early bird in what's

00:40:07.740 happening now these years

00:40:09.540 with the psychedelics and

00:40:12.420 the studies of how

00:40:14.460 psychedelics will change

00:40:17.140 the outlook of human

00:40:18.980 beings on the world and

00:40:20.760 allow them to take in a

00:40:23.800 different kind of

00:40:24.960 information.

00:40:25.500 And perhaps very much, and

00:40:28.520 Carl Fristin, by the way, is

00:40:30.160 involved in some of that

00:40:31.160 work also.

00:40:31.740 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:40:33.340 And people talk about this

00:40:35.820 psychedelic revolution going on

00:40:37.520 right now, which will have a

00:40:39.140 huge impact on many of the

00:40:42.680 problems people have with

00:40:45.780 anxiety and with depression and

00:40:48.500 so on.

00:40:48.900 because it will open the

00:40:51.020 mind and it gives sort of a

00:40:54.340 direct attention.

00:40:56.520 And I think the problem with

00:40:58.500 modern civilization in many

00:41:00.040 ways is that we are so

00:41:02.120 obsessed with predicting

00:41:03.320 everything and making

00:41:04.360 everything straight line and

00:41:06.840 dependable and not being

00:41:09.160 irritated by anything, no

00:41:11.320 rain, no wind, no

00:41:13.380 interruptions, that our mind

00:41:16.840 sort of falls asleep in a

00:41:19.020 sense and everything is like

00:41:21.180 the prediction we come with

00:41:22.500 and we need some somehow to

00:41:25.300 sort of refresh our sensory

00:41:29.300 input from time to time.

00:41:30.640 And I think there are many

00:41:31.820 ways to do that.

00:41:33.880 Psychedelics is certainly one.

00:41:35.720 Physical exercise is another.

00:41:37.620 Meditation is another.

00:41:39.840 There are many ways to sort of

00:41:42.880 get around your everyday

00:41:44.700 reduction of the world.

00:41:46.840 So, so some of Friston's

00:41:50.640 co-workers have been making

00:41:53.880 the psychophysiological claim

00:41:55.700 that what the psychedelics are

00:41:57.420 doing is akin to a stress

00:41:59.820 response, like it's a highly

00:42:00.900 magnified stress response.

00:42:02.400 And the logic there is

00:42:03.820 something, this is relevant to

00:42:05.620 the issue of point.

00:42:07.200 So imagine that you're reducing

00:42:10.580 the 11 million bits to 16.

00:42:13.760 Okay, now then imagine all the

00:42:16.720 ways that that reduction could

00:42:18.260 conceivably occur.

00:42:19.640 Like all the different ways 11

00:42:21.580 million bits could be reduced to

00:42:23.160 16.

00:42:23.780 There's a lot of them.

00:42:25.260 Okay, now the advantage to the

00:42:27.680 reduction is you only have to deal

00:42:29.180 with 16.

00:42:30.280 But the disadvantage is, well, what

00:42:32.020 if you're pointing in the wrong

00:42:33.260 direction?

00:42:34.660 Okay, so let me tell you a story and

00:42:36.660 you tell me what you think about

00:42:37.840 this.

00:42:38.180 So I think that's what the Tower of

00:42:39.860 Babel story is about.

00:42:42.480 Okay, so because, so let me

00:42:44.780 outline it.

00:42:46.120 So the Babylonian towers that that

00:42:48.680 story refers to were generally

00:42:50.460 ziggurats.

00:42:52.120 And a ziggurat is a structure that

00:42:53.820 has a point at the top.

00:42:55.140 It's essentially a pyramid.

00:42:56.160 It's a stepped pyramid.

00:42:57.640 And at the time that story emerged,

00:43:00.320 the Babylonian kings, there were

00:43:02.180 many of them, were engaged in the

00:43:04.340 same kind of competition you see in

00:43:05.980 modern cities, right?

00:43:07.400 They were going to build the

00:43:08.840 highest tower, and that would

00:43:11.320 announce the builder of the tower

00:43:13.420 as something akin to God, like a

00:43:15.500 God emperor.

00:43:16.700 And so these were God emperors of

00:43:19.440 the technological enterprise.

00:43:22.040 The people who build the towers of

00:43:24.420 Babel in the biblical story are the

00:43:26.880 descendants of Cain.

00:43:28.800 Okay, so they're resentful and

00:43:30.420 miserable and genocidal.

00:43:32.440 They're a bad lot, and they're the

00:43:33.980 first builders of cities.

00:43:35.820 And it's those people that build the

00:43:38.080 towers of Babel.

00:43:39.240 And so these are points in the wrong

00:43:41.240 direction, right?

00:43:43.260 Because as far as I can tell, what the

00:43:46.260 biblical corpus is attempting to do is

00:43:48.260 to specify a point.

00:43:50.040 It's the point of the cross, actually,

00:43:51.800 but it's trying to specify a point as

00:43:53.980 an antidote to the pathological points

00:43:56.440 that might otherwise emerge.

00:43:58.200 What happens in the tower of Babel story

00:44:00.120 is that as the tower increases in

00:44:03.120 presumptuousness, that's a good way of

00:44:05.400 thinking about it, and sort of a bitter

00:44:08.060 and, what would you call it, a bitter

00:44:11.220 and prideful rigidity, even the ability

00:44:15.540 of the people who inhabit the tower to

00:44:17.400 communicate becomes impaired, right?

00:44:20.200 And this ties into our discussion, because

00:44:21.960 we've already made the case that words

00:44:23.780 themselves are something like pointers

00:44:26.500 of value, right?

00:44:28.120 They're compressed pointers of value.

00:44:29.740 And if the value hierarchy itself is

00:44:31.820 pathologized, if the point is wrong, well,

00:44:34.920 then the words are going to become not

00:44:37.500 only meaningless, but in some ways,

00:44:38.960 counter to meaning itself.

00:44:41.720 And that seems to me also relevant to

00:44:44.560 the point of, let me see, there was

00:44:46.640 another element that you brought in that

00:44:48.240 was, but, oh yes, I know what it is.

00:44:50.780 When the psychedelics hit, let's say, if

00:44:54.620 that's a magnified stress response, imagine

00:44:56.620 if your point is very misaligned.

00:44:59.240 Well, what you could do is reduce the

00:45:01.900 intensity of the point and broaden the

00:45:03.780 attentional horizon, and the danger there

00:45:07.020 is now you're in the desert, but there's

00:45:08.600 many possible directions now that you

00:45:10.840 could go, right?

00:45:11.880 So it could snap you out of a false point.

00:45:15.480 And I think that's why people find these

00:45:17.180 experiences, or can find them, transforming

00:45:19.960 and illuminating, right?

00:45:21.180 It's because they allow people to replace

00:45:23.600 that pathologically narrowed point that

00:45:25.960 has depressed them or left them

00:45:27.320 nihilistic with a reintroduction into

00:45:30.000 the richer sensory realm with the

00:45:34.420 possibility of a reorientation.

00:45:37.940 I think that's very true in the sense

00:45:40.300 that what we basically did when we moved

00:45:43.300 from being hunter-gatherers to

00:45:45.940 surrealists who were cultivating the land

00:45:52.480 and taming the wild animals into our

00:45:57.260 animals and so on, which is the story that

00:46:00.520 the Bible is about.

00:46:02.300 Most monolithic, monotheistic religions are

00:46:07.140 about this transformation from hunter-gatherers

00:46:09.380 to farmers.

00:46:11.920 And the farmer believes that everything

00:46:14.660 comes from his work, from his little piece

00:46:17.860 of land, and from what he puts into it.

00:46:21.720 The hunter-gatherer thinks that everything

00:46:24.120 around him brings him something.

00:46:27.260 Evil or good stuff.

00:46:28.900 Nice or not nice stuff.

00:46:31.080 Edible or not edible stuff.

00:46:32.800 But the world is open.

00:46:35.660 And you go into it and you find something

00:46:38.300 you would like to eat.

00:46:39.400 The farmer believes that he controls

00:46:41.320 and creates everything.

00:46:42.900 So I think it's very much, and also

00:46:45.380 Oh, that's so interesting.

00:46:48.120 It's about sort of contracting yourself

00:46:51.360 to the city and building up in the city

00:46:55.280 rather than going out into the open land

00:46:58.080 and finding something to eat.

00:47:00.220 And I think much of the way we have evolved

00:47:03.860 in social terms in the past, actually 10,000

00:47:08.240 years since we introduced agriculture

00:47:09.900 has been more and more contracting ourselves

00:47:12.920 to a small space, controlling everything

00:47:15.420 and forgetting about the wide open space

00:47:19.020 out there.

00:47:19.780 And even if you look at what you see

00:47:24.280 when you go into a landscape controlled

00:47:26.120 by agriculture, you see concepts.

00:47:29.280 You see wheat or you see rice or you see maize

00:47:34.080 or you see very basic stuff, but it's all the same.

00:47:37.060 So it's like a concept that has been transformed

00:47:39.840 into a field rather than if you go into the wilderness.

00:47:43.840 There's so many different things at the same time.

00:47:46.360 And so we have compressed enormously this information.

00:47:50.640 And we live in a simplified world

00:47:53.440 that we've created ourselves.

00:47:55.040 We found it efficient.

00:47:57.360 That's why we did it.

00:47:58.920 But it also takes away from our mind

00:48:02.720 the ability to see multitudes.

00:48:06.000 And I think what happens then,

00:48:08.640 or you could say we take out entropy from our life.

00:48:12.240 And what happens with, I think,

00:48:14.660 with people who experiment with the psychedelics

00:48:16.580 is that they experience suddenly

00:48:18.820 this multitude coming back.

00:48:21.920 They open up their minds to the multitudes.

00:48:25.020 So that's interesting.

00:48:26.600 So there's another biblical illusion there,

00:48:29.240 possibly, you know, in the story of Cain and Abel.

00:48:32.260 So the builders of the Tower of Babel

00:48:33.940 are Cain's descendants.

00:48:35.400 But Cain is an agriculturalist, right?

00:48:38.500 And so you could imagine.

00:48:40.020 So tell me what you think of this hypothesis.

00:48:42.380 So that as the agricultural endeavor got underway,

00:48:47.280 you pointed out that one of the consequences of that

00:48:49.560 was that people started to believe that

00:48:51.380 the world was a place where the fruits

00:48:53.920 made themselves available

00:48:55.600 as a consequence of direct human labor and effort.

00:48:59.080 And that could be contrasted with the hunter-gatherer,

00:49:02.960 maybe even with the herder,

00:49:04.580 that would be Abel,

00:49:05.780 with the herder mentality,

00:49:07.260 which is more like,

00:49:08.720 well, it's a more wandering

00:49:11.800 and diverse way of looking at the world.

00:49:14.860 Now, you can imagine that

00:49:16.680 as agriculture got established,

00:49:18.980 that did enable the aggregation

00:49:21.540 of more and more people, right?

00:49:22.880 The building of larger and larger

00:49:26.120 and more integrated civilizations.

00:49:28.220 And you could imagine that as well,

00:49:31.100 pointing to exactly the outcome you described,

00:49:33.560 which would be the presumption of civilization, right?

00:49:38.060 I mean, the prideful presumption in a sense.

00:49:40.600 Now, you're talking about

00:49:42.420 a very strange sort of complex compression,

00:49:46.960 because your point is that

00:49:49.300 once we transform the world

00:49:53.780 into a linguistic matrix

00:49:55.240 and conceptualize it,

00:49:57.400 we can then transform the world itself

00:49:59.920 into an analog of that matrix.

00:50:02.820 So is that partly what accounts

00:50:04.620 for your interest in agriculture?

00:50:06.940 Because I know you've written books

00:50:08.180 that are relevant to that endeavor as well.

00:50:11.520 I was wondering what the connection was, right?

00:50:13.460 Because it's not obvious.

00:50:15.220 No, it's not obvious at all.

00:50:16.680 So, and in many ways,

00:50:21.460 it was an accidental event in my life

00:50:23.760 that I became interested in nutrition

00:50:25.600 and the way we produce food

00:50:27.260 and how it influences our body.

00:50:31.940 But then what really changed my attitude

00:50:35.520 to all this

00:50:36.140 and was a fantastic experience for many years

00:50:38.640 was that it dawned on me suddenly

00:50:41.460 that the real problem

00:50:44.820 in the way we produce food these days

00:50:47.280 is that it's so over-agriculturalized,

00:50:50.520 it's over-abstract,

00:50:52.100 it's over-civilized in a sense,

00:50:54.580 and that we've forgotten

00:50:55.720 all about what nature itself provides

00:50:58.700 and offers us

00:50:59.640 in the form of wild food.

00:51:01.060 And you can measure generation after generation

00:51:06.140 that people lose knowledge of the richness

00:51:10.820 of the real world,

00:51:12.280 of what's out there on its own,

00:51:15.380 wild.

00:51:16.240 And wild means of its own will.

00:51:18.840 It's not our will,

00:51:20.700 it's the nature's will.

00:51:23.180 And then I,

00:51:24.240 in studying that,

00:51:25.400 I came across a trend in cooking,

00:51:29.200 in gastronomy,

00:51:31.160 in restaurants

00:51:32.040 that happened also

00:51:34.640 to have its leading force

00:51:36.420 in my own country of Denmark.

00:51:38.720 And maybe you've heard about

00:51:39.760 the restaurant Noma,

00:51:41.480 which was started like 20 years ago

00:51:43.520 and became,

00:51:44.360 after 10 years,

00:51:45.540 the leading restaurant in the world,

00:51:47.280 which was absurd

00:51:48.700 because Denmark,

00:51:49.700 in terms of gastronomy,

00:51:50.880 has always been sort of a joke.

00:51:54.020 Nobody would ever consider Denmark

00:51:55.780 to be a country

00:51:56.500 where you would go for fine dining

00:51:58.220 and people would go to the line.

00:51:59.860 Worse than England.

00:52:01.940 What?

00:52:02.820 Yeah, worse than England.

00:52:04.040 Yes.

00:52:04.920 Yeah, that's not good.

00:52:06.440 We sold the good bacon to the British

00:52:08.600 and had the bad bacon ourselves.

00:52:10.980 So, yeah.

00:52:11.880 Denmark was a mud pile

00:52:14.860 of shitty gastronomy.

00:52:17.280 But suddenly,

00:52:18.440 you had the best restaurant

00:52:19.140 in the world.

00:52:19.760 And why was that?

00:52:20.460 That was because

00:52:21.080 René Rezepi,

00:52:22.540 the chief chef of Noma,

00:52:25.660 a good friend,

00:52:27.580 he became a friend.

00:52:30.900 René said,

00:52:32.280 we only want to serve stuff

00:52:33.440 that grows where we are

00:52:34.880 and grows at the time we serve it,

00:52:37.400 the seasons in which we serve it.

00:52:39.500 So we will forget

00:52:40.540 about all imported foods,

00:52:42.200 we'll forget about

00:52:42.920 all the agricultural foods,

00:52:44.580 and we'll serve the wild foods

00:52:46.520 for people on the plate.

00:52:48.960 And that was a radical idea

00:52:50.580 that turned out to be fantastic

00:52:52.840 in terms of taste

00:52:54.500 and smell

00:52:55.820 and all that stuff.

00:52:57.920 But it was also a fantastic idea

00:53:00.000 because when he then gathered

00:53:01.920 chefs from all over the world

00:53:04.520 who were interested

00:53:05.900 in his way of thinking

00:53:07.600 in a number of big events

00:53:10.680 we called MAD,

00:53:12.020 which is the Danish word for food,

00:53:14.940 where you had all these people.

00:53:17.360 And I was so lucky

00:53:19.400 that he asked me

00:53:20.060 to give the opening lecture

00:53:21.140 for these events.

00:53:23.180 And my basic point was

00:53:24.860 that we've moved

00:53:25.880 from wild to tame,

00:53:28.800 and now we'll be moving back again.

00:53:30.960 In that we moved away

00:53:33.180 from wild food,

00:53:34.400 all that nature offers,

00:53:35.760 we wanted to control everything,

00:53:38.620 and we ended up

00:53:40.020 as a species

00:53:40.800 eating almost only four crops.

00:53:44.740 It's really surprising

00:53:45.920 if you count the number of calories

00:53:49.560 that the human beings eat,

00:53:51.480 more than 50% of these calories

00:53:54.040 come from just four crops,

00:53:56.000 like wheat and rice

00:53:57.820 and potato and mace and so on.

00:54:00.960 Corn, I think you call it.

00:54:03.360 And no monkey would accept that.

00:54:07.340 Monkeys eat 300 different kinds

00:54:09.260 of vegetables.

00:54:11.040 But we eat only four.

00:54:13.380 And all the brainpower

00:54:15.660 of the chefs

00:54:16.520 is used to make four

00:54:18.040 very boring things to eat

00:54:20.580 edible all year round.

00:54:24.160 So you have chefs

00:54:25.340 that come in

00:54:25.960 and can take a potato

00:54:28.900 or a steak

00:54:30.480 or whatever

00:54:31.140 and make that

00:54:32.960 interesting

00:54:33.520 in 500 different ways.

00:54:38.300 So gastronomy

00:54:39.960 and fine dining

00:54:41.060 has sort of collapsed

00:54:42.460 into taking a few

00:54:44.000 very poor raw materials

00:54:46.440 and making them interesting

00:54:47.660 even though they're poor.

00:54:49.280 And the new trend

00:54:50.920 is to use the skills

00:54:52.480 and the intelligence

00:54:53.460 of the chef

00:54:54.260 to go out

00:54:55.400 into the wild nature

00:54:56.620 and say,

00:54:57.640 what is edible here?

00:54:59.040 It takes a lot of skill

00:55:00.060 and a lot of knowledge

00:55:00.980 and a lot of care

00:55:01.940 to bring it to the plate

00:55:03.580 and to make it taste good.

00:55:06.020 But then it's much,

00:55:07.240 much richer

00:55:07.800 than anything you get

00:55:08.820 out of controlled

00:55:09.860 civilized agriculture.

00:55:11.660 So the revolution

00:55:14.280 or the renaissance

00:55:15.540 in fine dining

00:55:17.100 was to understand

00:55:19.140 that chefs

00:55:19.900 should go out

00:55:21.280 and study

00:55:21.940 the edibility

00:55:22.860 of planet Earth

00:55:24.020 rather than to

00:55:25.640 create fantastic recipes

00:55:28.180 with their gastronomy skills.

00:55:31.400 Right, right.

00:55:32.220 So that's a return.

00:55:33.280 Oh, that's so interesting

00:55:34.260 because that's a return

00:55:37.380 to the garden

00:55:41.160 with multiple,

00:55:43.880 to what would you say,

00:55:45.360 to the abundant garden.

00:55:46.660 It seems to me

00:55:47.820 that there's a powerful analogy there

00:55:49.740 that the,

00:55:51.280 if we think of

00:55:51.900 what the chefs are doing

00:55:52.920 as a form of art,

00:55:54.720 that your sense,

00:55:56.300 tell me if I've got this right,

00:55:57.680 it's in keeping

00:55:58.340 with what we've been discussing,

00:55:59.740 that

00:55:59.920 that civilizational

00:56:03.040 hyper-focus

00:56:05.480 on four crops

00:56:06.640 has abstracted us

00:56:08.180 away from

00:56:08.740 the underlying

00:56:09.440 entropy,

00:56:10.800 so that's good

00:56:11.400 because we don't die,

00:56:12.400 but also

00:56:12.840 from the

00:56:14.020 immense quality

00:56:15.900 that's associated

00:56:16.780 with that richness.

00:56:18.780 And so

00:56:19.180 a fine dining experience

00:56:20.660 like the one you're describing

00:56:21.780 is a reintroduction

00:56:23.000 back into that

00:56:23.880 plenitude.

00:56:25.040 I'm wondering

00:56:25.580 if beauty itself

00:56:26.700 can be conceptualized

00:56:27.920 that way,

00:56:28.520 you know,

00:56:28.800 because

00:56:29.100 a modern,

00:56:31.380 the modern architects

00:56:32.400 built these buildings

00:56:33.780 that are extremely pointed,

00:56:35.840 right?

00:56:36.220 They called them

00:56:36.880 machines for living.

00:56:37.940 That was the Germans'

00:56:38.980 contribution

00:56:39.340 to the blight

00:56:40.240 that constitutes

00:56:41.060 our cities,

00:56:41.780 right?

00:56:42.000 Machines for living,

00:56:43.480 hyper-efficient

00:56:44.480 pointers

00:56:45.040 in a single direction.

00:56:46.680 And they got rid

00:56:47.580 of all

00:56:47.920 excess ornamentation,

00:56:49.640 but we could say

00:56:51.280 that the

00:56:51.940 excess ornamentation

00:56:53.820 is actually

00:56:54.500 a pointer

00:56:55.560 to the plenitude

00:56:57.240 beyond that

00:56:58.320 merely efficient point.

00:57:00.640 Like,

00:57:01.200 here's something

00:57:01.780 I figured out

00:57:02.420 about the difference

00:57:03.180 between Japan

00:57:04.040 and the United States

00:57:05.060 back in the 1980s.

00:57:06.800 So,

00:57:07.640 I did a lot

00:57:08.980 of different reports

00:57:09.960 on the Japanese

00:57:11.360 economic miracle

00:57:12.820 back in the 1980s.

00:57:14.340 and one of the things

00:57:15.760 I learned

00:57:16.160 about the Japanese

00:57:16.940 is that

00:57:17.640 if they

00:57:19.380 get the point

00:57:20.640 right,

00:57:21.260 they're unbeatably

00:57:22.440 efficient.

00:57:23.840 But sometimes

00:57:24.780 they get the point

00:57:25.580 wrong,

00:57:26.020 in which case

00:57:26.600 they're moving

00:57:27.120 like mad

00:57:27.680 in the wrong direction,

00:57:29.040 which is an

00:57:29.580 engineering problem,

00:57:30.640 right?

00:57:30.780 You can imagine

00:57:31.300 hyper-efficient engineers

00:57:32.760 pointed in the wrong

00:57:34.020 direction,

00:57:34.380 like they are in China

00:57:35.480 with the surveillance

00:57:36.320 state.

00:57:37.760 Well,

00:57:38.180 in the United States,

00:57:39.880 which is a way

00:57:40.580 more diverse

00:57:41.360 society,

00:57:42.580 which also

00:57:44.620 has a much

00:57:45.120 higher tolerance

00:57:46.240 for eccentricity

00:57:47.440 and criminality,

00:57:49.460 the Americans

00:57:50.080 are incredibly

00:57:51.440 robust because

00:57:52.420 there's always

00:57:53.920 something crazy

00:57:54.720 going on

00:57:55.280 somewhere in the

00:57:55.740 United States

00:57:56.420 where the new

00:57:57.220 point might be

00:57:58.220 established.

00:57:59.480 You know,

00:57:59.640 when you get

00:57:59.940 that homogenous

00:58:00.720 society that's

00:58:02.140 pointed to

00:58:02.880 a single pinpoint,

00:58:04.680 if that becomes

00:58:05.880 the wrong direction,

00:58:06.780 which it tends

00:58:07.300 to across time

00:58:08.420 anyways,

00:58:08.980 then it's

00:58:09.740 pathological

00:58:10.480 efficiency in

00:58:11.340 precisely the

00:58:11.980 wrong direction.

00:58:13.380 So there's

00:58:13.720 this,

00:58:14.640 you know,

00:58:14.980 in the Tao Te Ching,

00:58:17.060 the Tao itself,

00:58:18.620 which is the

00:58:19.180 proper pathway

00:58:19.980 through life,

00:58:20.680 the proper journey,

00:58:21.760 is a balance

00:58:22.520 between chaotic

00:58:24.340 plenitude

00:58:24.940 and pointed

00:58:26.460 order,

00:58:27.000 right?

00:58:27.180 It's not

00:58:27.580 order itself.

00:58:28.420 It's not

00:58:28.940 the narrowing

00:58:29.760 of the plenitude

00:58:30.500 to a single

00:58:31.680 point.

00:58:32.220 It's the dynamic

00:58:33.380 balance between

00:58:34.480 them.

00:58:35.360 And, okay,

00:58:36.060 so one of the

00:58:36.580 things I've been

00:58:37.160 thinking about

00:58:37.780 is that

00:58:38.220 the sense of

00:58:40.440 meaning,

00:58:40.840 the instinct

00:58:41.380 meaning,

00:58:42.000 you can think

00:58:42.440 about that

00:58:42.920 as a kind

00:58:43.380 of meta

00:58:43.820 motivation.

00:58:44.720 It's like

00:58:45.000 an amalgam

00:58:45.680 of motivations

00:58:46.420 that have

00:58:46.820 become unified.

00:58:48.260 And that's

00:58:48.680 what lends

00:58:49.520 your life

00:58:49.980 the sense

00:58:50.560 of meaning,

00:58:51.160 right?

00:58:51.300 The sense

00:58:51.740 of meaningful

00:58:52.260 pursuit.

00:58:53.480 That seems

00:58:54.240 to be a

00:58:54.920 marker.

00:58:55.980 To me,

00:58:56.400 it's a

00:58:56.660 biological

00:58:57.100 marker for

00:58:57.760 the optimized

00:58:58.380 balance of

00:58:59.640 plenitude

00:59:00.460 and focus,

00:59:01.580 right?

00:59:02.840 So it

00:59:03.880 retains the

00:59:04.960 focus that

00:59:05.520 enables you to

00:59:06.460 be efficient

00:59:07.040 enough to get

00:59:07.640 to where you

00:59:08.060 need to go,

00:59:08.620 because that's

00:59:09.020 obviously relevant.

00:59:09.740 And if

00:59:10.280 everyone was

00:59:10.780 walking around

00:59:11.440 on LSD

00:59:12.020 all the time,

00:59:12.700 nothing would

00:59:13.060 ever get done

00:59:13.720 because you

00:59:14.580 can't focus.

00:59:15.520 There's just

00:59:15.920 everything is

00:59:16.980 amazing.

00:59:17.620 And of course,

00:59:18.080 that's amazing.

00:59:18.900 But, you

00:59:19.540 know, what are

00:59:21.260 you going to

00:59:21.580 do if you

00:59:22.000 have to eat?

00:59:23.740 So, but then

00:59:25.060 if you narrow

00:59:25.700 too much, you

00:59:26.320 get the problem

00:59:26.900 that you're

00:59:27.340 describing and

00:59:28.000 you're seeing

00:59:28.500 that reflected

00:59:29.100 in the

00:59:29.460 agricultural

00:59:29.940 enterprise,

00:59:30.760 right?

00:59:30.980 It's this

00:59:31.240 hyper...

00:59:32.640 So it's a

00:59:33.660 focus on

00:59:34.240 four crops,

00:59:34.980 but it's also

00:59:35.520 a reduction of

00:59:36.600 the plenitude

00:59:37.140 of the

00:59:37.520 material world

00:59:38.160 itself in

00:59:39.400 accordance with

00:59:40.000 that mapping,

00:59:41.740 with that

00:59:42.000 initial mapping.

00:59:43.060 See, I think we

00:59:43.620 do this to

00:59:44.080 each other

00:59:44.480 too, you

00:59:44.880 know, is

00:59:45.760 that it's

00:59:46.280 something very

00:59:46.860 dangerous in

00:59:47.460 relationship,

00:59:47.980 is that you

00:59:49.480 build a model

00:59:50.120 of the person

00:59:50.800 you're with

00:59:51.300 because you

00:59:51.860 want to

00:59:52.120 predict them

00:59:52.660 and control

00:59:53.320 them.

00:59:53.600 That would

00:59:53.840 be the

00:59:54.140 cognitive,

00:59:54.780 you know,

00:59:55.580 the cognitive

00:59:56.080 explanation.

00:59:57.400 And then what

00:59:58.040 people do is

00:59:58.720 they punish each

00:59:59.660 other for

01:00:00.180 deviating from

01:00:01.020 that expectancy

01:00:01.880 set.

01:00:02.340 And that

01:00:03.700 keeps them,

01:00:04.440 you know,

01:00:05.300 narrowed and

01:00:05.760 boxed in,

01:00:06.400 but over

01:00:07.000 time it

01:00:07.520 turns your

01:00:07.980 relationship

01:00:08.500 into,

01:00:09.100 well,

01:00:09.340 people get

01:00:09.720 bored because

01:00:10.360 they've,

01:00:11.100 people get

01:00:11.580 bored with

01:00:11.960 their spouse

01:00:12.420 often because

01:00:12.960 they've turned

01:00:13.460 them into a

01:00:14.160 simulacrum of

01:00:15.140 their imagination.

01:00:16.780 They interact

01:00:17.740 with the idea

01:00:18.420 of the other

01:00:18.900 person rather

01:00:19.560 than with the

01:00:20.000 person.

01:00:20.860 An analogy,

01:00:21.700 I think,

01:00:21.980 for this kind

01:00:23.080 of discussion

01:00:23.700 is a

01:00:24.740 raindrop

01:00:25.320 running down

01:00:26.840 the hillside

01:00:28.640 or the

01:00:29.080 mountainside.

01:00:29.860 If you

01:00:30.860 had an

01:00:31.180 engineer to

01:00:31.880 solve this

01:00:32.360 problem,

01:00:32.800 we have

01:00:33.100 this raindrop

01:00:33.760 at the

01:00:34.120 top of

01:00:34.440 the mountain

01:00:34.880 and we

01:00:35.200 want it

01:00:35.600 to the

01:00:35.920 bottom.

01:00:36.960 He would

01:00:37.360 take his

01:00:37.820 ruler and

01:00:38.380 he would

01:00:38.640 draw a

01:00:39.020 straight line

01:00:39.720 and say,

01:00:41.160 that's the

01:00:41.520 way to go,

01:00:42.040 dear raindrop.

01:00:43.060 And the

01:00:43.380 raindrop will

01:00:44.080 say, no,

01:00:45.140 I can't do

01:00:45.660 that.

01:00:45.960 And he

01:00:46.220 will come

01:00:46.560 with some

01:00:47.020 kind of

01:00:47.420 machine and

01:00:48.200 dig a

01:00:49.000 channel for

01:00:49.640 it to run

01:00:50.120 down.

01:00:51.600 And now

01:00:51.940 what the

01:00:52.300 real raindrop

01:00:53.600 does,

01:00:54.340 of course,

01:00:54.760 is to go

01:00:55.500 a little

01:00:56.200 this way,

01:00:57.440 a little

01:00:57.760 that way,

01:00:58.720 around off

01:00:59.860 the golds

01:01:00.340 and dons

01:01:01.180 in a

01:01:02.380 zigzag

01:01:02.880 motion all

01:01:03.780 the way

01:01:04.020 down.

01:01:05.120 And what

01:01:05.560 it does

01:01:05.880 all the

01:01:06.220 time is

01:01:06.680 move

01:01:06.960 downwards.

01:01:08.140 But downwards

01:01:08.680 is not the

01:01:09.440 same all

01:01:09.840 the way

01:01:10.120 along.

01:01:11.200 So it

01:01:11.980 becomes a

01:01:12.460 very rich

01:01:13.160 thing rather

01:01:15.780 than a

01:01:16.140 straight line.

01:01:17.580 I think

01:01:17.880 William Blake,

01:01:19.920 the British

01:01:20.900 poet and

01:01:21.920 painter,

01:01:23.740 some hundred

01:01:24.940 years ago,

01:01:26.140 he said

01:01:27.120 that the

01:01:28.180 straight

01:01:29.680 road is

01:01:32.960 the road

01:01:33.340 of the

01:01:36.480 intellectual.

01:01:38.140 The

01:01:38.580 crooked road

01:01:39.560 is the

01:01:39.980 road of

01:01:40.300 genius.

01:01:41.900 Yeah,

01:01:42.240 well,

01:01:42.640 the

01:01:43.000 straight

01:01:44.520 road can

01:01:45.060 become the

01:01:45.880 road of

01:01:46.260 the

01:01:46.420 Luciferian

01:01:47.080 intellect.

01:01:48.900 Right?

01:01:49.100 That's really

01:01:49.640 attempting.

01:01:50.680 Well,

01:01:51.020 so,

01:01:51.260 and also

01:01:51.680 in the

01:01:52.020 Tao Te Ching,

01:01:52.880 you know,

01:01:53.160 that raindrop

01:01:54.160 analogy is

01:01:54.900 used quite

01:01:55.900 frequently in

01:01:56.780 the Tao Te Ching

01:01:57.460 to refer to

01:01:59.120 the Tao

01:01:59.480 because the

01:02:00.040 Tao is

01:02:00.480 exactly the

01:02:01.260 course that

01:02:01.880 water takes

01:02:02.900 when it

01:02:03.200 finds its

01:02:03.960 way down

01:02:04.740 hill.

01:02:05.640 And you

01:02:05.820 might say,

01:02:06.300 well,

01:02:06.660 why not

01:02:07.320 make it

01:02:07.720 hyper-efficient?

01:02:08.620 And the

01:02:08.860 answer is,

01:02:09.980 well,

01:02:10.260 what richness

01:02:11.280 do you

01:02:11.960 sacrifice in

01:02:13.100 that single-minded

01:02:14.060 efficient pursuit?

01:02:15.660 Right?

01:02:16.180 And it's a

01:02:16.580 tricky business

01:02:17.180 because you

01:02:17.480 can imagine,

01:02:18.300 you know,

01:02:19.200 in a relationship,

01:02:20.780 you're trying to

01:02:21.280 negotiate two

01:02:22.120 things.

01:02:23.000 You obviously

01:02:23.600 have to come to

01:02:24.480 terms with

01:02:25.020 one another

01:02:25.560 so that

01:02:26.420 there's some

01:02:26.840 mutual

01:02:27.180 understanding

01:02:27.960 and some

01:02:28.760 prediction

01:02:29.180 and some

01:02:29.640 control.

01:02:30.820 But then,

01:02:31.620 at the same

01:02:32.240 time,

01:02:32.620 you want to

01:02:33.160 have the

01:02:34.060 person develop

01:02:34.920 and transform

01:02:36.020 if you have

01:02:37.040 any sense,

01:02:38.060 and you want

01:02:38.560 to have enough

01:02:39.080 variability in

01:02:40.060 their behavior

01:02:40.700 so that they're

01:02:41.800 still,

01:02:42.500 well,

01:02:42.740 interesting,

01:02:43.700 which is a

01:02:44.320 good indication

01:02:45.540 of the relationship

01:02:46.540 between meaning

01:02:47.560 and that balance

01:02:48.860 between order

01:02:49.560 and chaos.

01:02:50.280 It's like,

01:02:50.980 if you sterilize

01:02:51.920 your relationship

01:02:52.600 with an excess

01:02:53.300 of predictability,

01:02:54.140 you just,

01:02:55.940 your fantasy

01:02:56.740 will start

01:02:57.340 taking you

01:02:57.980 into other

01:02:58.400 relationships.

01:02:59.400 That's what

01:02:59.780 will happen,

01:03:00.660 right?

01:03:01.080 Everything that

01:03:01.880 you've sacrificed

01:03:02.740 to that

01:03:03.380 single-minded

01:03:04.080 aim will

01:03:05.580 make itself

01:03:06.500 manifest in

01:03:07.980 the imagination

01:03:08.640 that's pulling

01:03:09.500 you to a

01:03:10.060 richer experience.

01:03:12.120 So,

01:03:13.320 you know,

01:03:13.560 one of the

01:03:13.900 things that I

01:03:14.440 did when I

01:03:15.180 was doing

01:03:15.740 marital

01:03:16.100 counseling for

01:03:16.880 my clients

01:03:17.720 was if they

01:03:18.480 were dissatisfied

01:03:19.300 with their

01:03:20.000 spouse,

01:03:21.740 let's say,

01:03:23.020 said,

01:03:23.420 well,

01:03:23.560 what do

01:03:24.620 you fantasize

01:03:25.440 about in

01:03:25.940 relationship to

01:03:26.760 a new

01:03:27.100 relationship,

01:03:27.940 right?

01:03:28.200 What fantasies

01:03:29.260 spontaneously enter

01:03:30.540 the theater of

01:03:31.120 your imagination?

01:03:32.580 And they would

01:03:33.260 tell me,

01:03:33.760 you know,

01:03:34.080 in as much

01:03:34.760 detail as was

01:03:35.560 necessary,

01:03:36.360 and I would

01:03:37.480 say,

01:03:37.760 well,

01:03:37.960 why is it

01:03:38.760 impossible for

01:03:39.520 you to seek

01:03:40.160 that within the

01:03:41.060 confines of this

01:03:41.880 relationship,

01:03:42.700 you know?

01:03:43.160 It might be,

01:03:43.860 well,

01:03:43.920 she's not like

01:03:44.740 that,

01:03:45.000 or he's not

01:03:45.520 like that,

01:03:46.000 or she would

01:03:46.400 never do that,

01:03:47.120 or he would

01:03:47.520 never act that

01:03:48.280 way.

01:03:48.480 It's like,

01:03:48.960 well,

01:03:50.600 people are

01:03:52.860 pretty damn

01:03:53.400 strange,

01:03:53.960 and there's a

01:03:54.420 lot of mystery

01:03:55.080 in them,

01:03:55.520 and if you're

01:03:56.500 a dancer,

01:03:58.420 you can get

01:03:59.100 a lot of

01:04:00.000 interesting

01:04:02.220 possibility out

01:04:04.640 of people where

01:04:05.260 you thought there

01:04:05.920 was only a

01:04:06.520 stultified actuality.

01:04:08.000 One of the

01:04:08.400 things I noticed

01:04:09.060 as a therapist,

01:04:09.920 and as an

01:04:10.420 interviewer,

01:04:11.040 you know,

01:04:11.740 if my clinical

01:04:13.340 session got

01:04:14.180 boring,

01:04:14.680 it was because

01:04:16.560 I wasn't paying

01:04:17.300 enough attention.

01:04:18.860 I was substituting

01:04:20.320 my presumption

01:04:21.200 for the person,

01:04:22.740 and so if I

01:04:23.480 attended more

01:04:24.440 deeply,

01:04:25.620 they would start

01:04:26.360 revealing more

01:04:27.140 of themselves,

01:04:27.760 and then they'd

01:04:28.200 become like,

01:04:29.240 and this was even

01:04:29.940 true for so-called

01:04:30.880 simple,

01:04:31.180 there's no simple

01:04:31.980 people,

01:04:32.420 but I had lots

01:04:32.960 of clients who

01:04:33.580 were,

01:04:34.320 they weren't

01:04:34.820 intellectually gifted,

01:04:35.960 put it that way,

01:04:36.740 you know,

01:04:36.980 they were people

01:04:37.560 who would have

01:04:37.980 been struggling,

01:04:39.280 you know,

01:04:39.520 often they didn't

01:04:40.700 have a high school

01:04:41.360 education,

01:04:42.320 some of them

01:04:42.760 weren't even

01:04:43.180 literate,

01:04:43.680 but if you

01:04:44.820 got them

01:04:45.420 out of the

01:04:47.660 box that maybe

01:04:48.500 you wanted to

01:04:49.120 put them in,

01:04:49.700 they were just

01:04:50.280 as unbearably

01:04:51.100 interesting as

01:04:51.860 anyone else.

01:04:53.800 And that's,

01:04:54.600 there's a

01:04:55.360 Norwegian writer,

01:04:57.060 fiction writer

01:04:57.640 called Axel

01:04:58.400 Sandemus,

01:04:59.800 who wrote in

01:05:00.700 one of his

01:05:01.220 books that

01:05:01.880 that man

01:05:03.620 who does not

01:05:05.160 understand that

01:05:05.980 any woman

01:05:06.720 contains every

01:05:08.420 woman.

01:05:09.200 Right,

01:05:09.600 right.

01:05:10.760 He's an idiot.

01:05:12.680 I mean,

01:05:12.940 the way you

01:05:13.900 approach your

01:05:15.000 spouse is

01:05:16.380 understanding

01:05:17.640 she is

01:05:18.860 every woman

01:05:19.840 in this

01:05:20.360 universe.

01:05:21.660 And that

01:05:21.900 could be

01:05:22.680 someone you

01:05:23.700 don't like

01:05:24.560 or someone

01:05:24.980 you like.

01:05:26.160 All aspects

01:05:27.060 of being

01:05:28.540 a human

01:05:29.320 being is

01:05:29.940 present in

01:05:30.500 that other

01:05:30.920 human being.

01:05:32.080 And the

01:05:32.340 same,

01:05:32.700 of course,

01:05:33.100 goes for

01:05:33.960 me as

01:05:34.520 a man

01:05:35.000 in that

01:05:35.680 same

01:05:35.980 relationship

01:05:36.840 that I'm

01:05:38.100 the best

01:05:38.480 of men

01:05:38.820 and I'm

01:05:39.080 the worst

01:05:39.460 of men.

01:05:39.900 And one

01:05:43.280 of the

01:05:43.540 reasons that

01:05:44.240 it's a good

01:05:46.260 thing to

01:05:46.880 stick to

01:05:47.960 your

01:05:48.240 relationship,

01:05:49.560 to be

01:05:50.820 faithful to

01:05:51.740 your relationship

01:05:52.480 is then

01:05:53.960 you allow

01:05:54.700 this multitude

01:05:55.860 of possible

01:05:58.300 persons to

01:06:00.220 be there.

01:06:01.420 The moment

01:06:01.880 you start

01:06:02.440 thinking,

01:06:03.080 oh,

01:06:03.300 I would

01:06:03.560 like rather

01:06:04.140 to go

01:06:04.520 over here

01:06:05.100 or there

01:06:05.760 or like

01:06:06.820 to change

01:06:07.400 things in

01:06:08.040 that way

01:06:08.780 and have

01:06:10.580 another object

01:06:11.740 of my

01:06:12.200 love,

01:06:13.140 then you

01:06:13.640 reduce that

01:06:14.420 person.

01:06:15.480 You don't

01:06:15.860 see the

01:06:16.560 depths,

01:06:17.320 the richness

01:06:18.980 inside that

01:06:20.300 other person.

01:06:20.840 And I

01:06:21.140 think that's

01:06:22.000 what a

01:06:22.600 strong and

01:06:23.500 good relationship

01:06:24.300 is about.

01:06:24.980 That is what

01:06:25.500 love and

01:06:26.100 openness is

01:06:26.880 about is

01:06:27.480 to allow

01:06:28.680 the other

01:06:29.160 person to

01:06:29.780 be fully

01:06:31.020 rich,

01:06:32.200 fully

01:06:32.560 wonder.

01:06:35.060 My wife

01:06:36.020 just about

01:06:36.680 died a

01:06:37.200 couple of

01:06:37.540 years ago

01:06:38.120 and so

01:06:39.440 did I

01:06:39.940 at about

01:06:40.300 time.

01:06:41.460 It was a

01:06:42.240 narrow

01:06:43.520 pathway.

01:06:45.240 I had a

01:06:46.220 pretty good

01:06:46.540 relationship

01:06:47.060 with her

01:06:47.620 before that.

01:06:48.840 Very good.

01:06:49.400 I've known

01:06:49.940 her since

01:06:50.320 she was

01:06:50.700 like eight

01:06:51.180 years old.

01:06:51.680 So we've

01:06:51.960 known each

01:06:52.300 other mostly

01:06:53.240 our whole

01:06:53.660 life.

01:06:54.620 And she

01:06:56.340 changed quite

01:06:57.020 a bit after

01:06:57.580 she was ill

01:06:58.280 and really

01:06:59.060 for the

01:06:59.440 better once

01:07:00.000 she started

01:07:00.440 to recover.

01:07:01.740 And I

01:07:03.160 was much

01:07:03.580 more, I

01:07:04.280 would say,

01:07:04.720 grateful to

01:07:05.180 have her

01:07:05.500 around.

01:07:06.500 I mean, not

01:07:07.460 that that

01:07:07.840 wasn't there

01:07:08.380 to begin

01:07:08.780 with.

01:07:09.000 It was

01:07:09.260 already

01:07:09.560 there.

01:07:09.900 I loved

01:07:10.220 my wife,

01:07:10.720 but the

01:07:12.720 demonstrative,

01:07:15.140 like a

01:07:15.560 true

01:07:15.840 demonstration

01:07:16.560 of the

01:07:18.380 possibility

01:07:18.960 of her

01:07:19.460 absence

01:07:19.900 woke me

01:07:20.800 up a

01:07:21.160 bit more.

01:07:22.120 And one

01:07:22.400 of the

01:07:22.600 things that's

01:07:23.100 happened is

01:07:24.200 that now

01:07:25.420 when I see

01:07:26.100 her, I

01:07:28.480 can see

01:07:28.900 her at

01:07:29.220 every stage

01:07:30.000 of her

01:07:30.300 life at

01:07:30.780 the same

01:07:31.120 time.

01:07:32.100 It's really

01:07:32.840 something.

01:07:33.400 And also

01:07:34.100 what's

01:07:34.440 happened,

01:07:35.000 she shed a

01:07:36.180 lot of

01:07:36.500 her self-imposed

01:07:37.400 constraints in

01:07:38.280 the aftermath

01:07:38.820 of her brush

01:07:39.860 with mortality.

01:07:40.520 It lasted

01:07:41.000 like nine

01:07:41.520 months.

01:07:41.860 It was a

01:07:42.140 very torturous

01:07:43.200 experience.

01:07:44.300 So she

01:07:44.660 changed a

01:07:45.240 lot.

01:07:45.560 It's taken

01:07:46.020 multiple

01:07:46.880 years for

01:07:47.600 the full

01:07:48.000 manifestation

01:07:48.560 of that

01:07:49.200 change,

01:07:49.580 and it

01:07:49.780 still hasn't

01:07:50.360 happened.

01:07:51.240 But it's

01:07:52.360 a wonderful

01:07:52.900 thing to

01:07:53.460 see her,

01:07:54.980 and maybe

01:07:55.380 it's also

01:07:55.820 a reflection

01:07:56.260 of my

01:07:56.660 change in

01:07:57.100 attitude.

01:07:57.580 She's taken

01:07:58.140 off a lot

01:07:58.800 of self-imposed

01:07:59.820 constraints.

01:08:00.760 I think we're

01:08:01.180 afraid of our

01:08:01.740 own entropy,

01:08:02.540 our own

01:08:03.040 possibility.

01:08:04.240 And in

01:08:05.120 doing that,

01:08:05.820 I would say

01:08:06.320 she's become

01:08:06.940 more like a

01:08:07.640 child again.

01:08:08.960 And there's

01:08:10.020 insistence in

01:08:11.680 that, in

01:08:12.140 Wordsworth,

01:08:12.800 for example,

01:08:13.340 also biblical

01:08:14.540 insistence,

01:08:15.400 you know,

01:08:15.640 that unless

01:08:16.080 you become

01:08:16.520 as a little

01:08:16.940 child, you

01:08:17.460 can't enter

01:08:18.400 the kingdom

01:08:18.800 of heaven.

01:08:19.360 And it has

01:08:20.160 something to

01:08:20.780 do with that

01:08:21.400 imaginative

01:08:22.060 plurality that

01:08:23.080 you described,

01:08:24.000 right?

01:08:24.500 Because one of

01:08:25.000 the things that's

01:08:25.580 magical about

01:08:26.240 children is

01:08:26.860 their capacity

01:08:28.360 to magically

01:08:29.040 transform and

01:08:30.020 to enchant

01:08:30.520 the world.

01:08:31.140 And they do

01:08:31.920 that because

01:08:32.360 they're going

01:08:32.760 in many

01:08:33.120 directions.

01:08:34.100 They're not

01:08:34.520 narrowed.

01:08:35.220 And, you

01:08:35.960 know, that

01:08:36.280 makes them in

01:08:37.760 need of

01:08:38.160 discipline and

01:08:38.900 civilization.

01:08:39.880 But there's

01:08:40.620 something wonderful

01:08:41.300 about that.

01:08:42.140 So I'd like

01:08:42.620 you to comment

01:08:43.040 on that, but

01:08:43.540 I'd also

01:08:43.900 like to ask

01:08:44.740 you, you

01:08:45.060 know, what

01:08:45.680 you just

01:08:46.000 said about

01:08:46.380 relationships.

01:08:46.960 That's not

01:08:47.520 something that

01:08:48.040 everybody knows.

01:08:49.360 So I'd like

01:08:50.080 to know how

01:08:50.480 you figured

01:08:50.920 that out.

01:08:53.680 Hard work.

01:08:57.940 How did I

01:08:58.640 figure that

01:08:59.200 out?

01:09:00.560 Yeah, that,

01:09:01.760 well, and you

01:09:02.320 can say it.

01:09:03.020 Not only did

01:09:03.560 you figure it

01:09:04.040 out, but you

01:09:04.500 can articulate

01:09:05.080 it.

01:09:05.580 And so.

01:09:06.140 Yeah.

01:09:09.380 That's a good

01:09:10.020 question.

01:09:10.440 I don't know

01:09:10.800 the answer to

01:09:11.380 it, actually.

01:09:13.040 But I

01:09:14.220 think that

01:09:15.480 it's, I've

01:09:18.440 always had a

01:09:19.580 tendency to be

01:09:21.440 very monogamous.

01:09:22.840 Is that how you

01:09:23.800 say the word

01:09:24.320 in English?

01:09:24.560 Yeah.

01:09:25.500 And faithful

01:09:26.400 to, but in

01:09:28.420 the modern

01:09:29.100 world, I mean,

01:09:29.980 you're serially

01:09:31.020 monogamous.

01:09:32.440 You have more

01:09:34.440 than one

01:09:35.080 relationship, but

01:09:36.800 one after the

01:09:37.680 other.

01:09:38.740 As a young

01:09:39.380 person, you

01:09:40.480 have several

01:09:41.400 girlfriends,

01:09:42.140 you have

01:09:43.040 but you're

01:09:43.720 faithful to

01:09:44.400 each of

01:09:44.800 them all

01:09:46.120 the time.

01:09:47.780 Is that

01:09:48.440 understandable?

01:09:50.220 Absolutely.

01:09:51.180 Yeah.

01:09:52.060 And so I,

01:09:53.620 that was

01:09:54.380 unusual in

01:09:55.480 the circles I

01:09:56.180 were living

01:09:56.800 in in the

01:09:57.320 70s.

01:09:58.200 People were

01:09:58.940 sort of all

01:09:59.400 over the

01:09:59.700 place, all

01:10:00.280 of them.

01:10:01.100 And I

01:10:01.360 was like,

01:10:01.940 sort of, I

01:10:02.300 had this

01:10:02.680 instinct for

01:10:03.460 monogamy.

01:10:04.300 And I was

01:10:04.980 sort of

01:10:05.360 wondering, why

01:10:05.920 is that so?

01:10:06.560 And I

01:10:07.760 realized that

01:10:08.620 it was

01:10:09.580 because it

01:10:11.040 made me

01:10:12.040 discover and

01:10:16.100 explore the

01:10:18.040 richness of

01:10:18.780 the other

01:10:19.120 person instead

01:10:20.100 of just

01:10:21.020 comparing to

01:10:22.920 someone else

01:10:23.600 and wanting

01:10:24.780 to change

01:10:25.320 someone else.

01:10:26.200 And then, of

01:10:26.700 course, I've

01:10:27.100 been cultivating

01:10:27.960 that emotion

01:10:28.620 and that way

01:10:29.680 of living for

01:10:30.460 quite some

01:10:31.180 decades now.

01:10:31.960 And I

01:10:34.640 think it's

01:10:34.980 very obvious

01:10:35.680 that the

01:10:37.940 moment you

01:10:38.660 start comparing

01:10:40.840 people.

01:10:42.560 Yeah.

01:10:42.940 That's a

01:10:43.360 commodification.

01:10:44.940 Yeah.

01:10:45.400 And you see

01:10:45.840 the label.

01:10:47.500 This guy I'm

01:10:48.500 talking to has

01:10:49.360 these opinions

01:10:50.280 and this track

01:10:51.440 record and so

01:10:52.220 on.

01:10:52.440 And you

01:10:53.560 confuse the

01:10:55.280 person for

01:10:56.020 the label.

01:10:57.420 Yeah.

01:10:57.640 And all you

01:10:58.060 see is the

01:10:58.500 labeling.

01:10:59.640 And life

01:11:00.920 becomes very

01:11:01.660 boring.

01:11:02.420 And, of

01:11:02.700 course, what

01:11:03.380 I've been

01:11:03.720 doing with

01:11:04.300 food and

01:11:04.840 agriculture,

01:11:05.540 what I've

01:11:05.780 been doing

01:11:06.340 with how

01:11:07.440 our cognition

01:11:09.240 system works,

01:11:10.380 what consciousness

01:11:11.840 is all about.

01:11:13.720 I've been

01:11:14.440 doing a lot

01:11:14.960 of work also

01:11:15.720 with environmental

01:11:16.520 issues and so

01:11:17.580 on.

01:11:18.580 It's the same

01:11:19.740 basic story all

01:11:20.860 the time that

01:11:21.940 we confuse

01:11:23.200 sort of the

01:11:24.560 label for

01:11:26.100 the real

01:11:26.500 thing.

01:11:27.040 We confuse

01:11:27.940 the terrain

01:11:28.740 for the map.

01:11:30.740 Yeah.

01:11:30.820 the concept

01:11:31.420 for the

01:11:31.980 real

01:11:32.360 stuff.

01:11:33.720 And I

01:11:34.600 think that

01:11:35.180 what we

01:11:35.580 do when

01:11:36.160 we are not

01:11:37.160 sort of

01:11:37.720 faithful in

01:11:39.320 our love

01:11:40.180 relationship is

01:11:41.920 that we do

01:11:44.480 comparisons all

01:11:45.580 the time instead

01:11:46.440 of saying,

01:11:47.140 okay, this is

01:11:47.740 it.

01:11:48.500 I'm not a

01:11:49.440 perfect man in

01:11:50.580 any sense,

01:11:51.680 but all

01:11:52.520 aspects of

01:11:53.560 masculinity and

01:11:54.960 many aspects of

01:11:55.980 femininity is in

01:11:57.380 me.

01:11:58.500 Yep.

01:11:59.120 And that's

01:12:01.180 every person

01:12:02.380 is a universe.

01:12:04.900 Right.

01:12:05.420 Right.

01:12:05.660 Well, this is

01:12:06.140 certainly something

01:12:06.800 that I learned

01:12:07.520 in, this is why

01:12:08.340 I love doing

01:12:08.880 psychotherapy.

01:12:10.920 Because that

01:12:12.720 the art of

01:12:13.560 psychotherapy is

01:12:14.560 to have that

01:12:15.460 realization making

01:12:17.060 itself manifest

01:12:17.940 constantly during

01:12:19.440 the conversation.

01:12:21.580 Right.

01:12:22.060 Because that,

01:12:22.740 and that means

01:12:23.260 the person is on

01:12:24.100 the cusp of

01:12:25.020 optimized

01:12:26.300 transformation.

01:12:27.660 So I've been

01:12:28.260 thinking about this.

01:12:29.000 Tell me what you

01:12:29.460 think about this.

01:12:30.040 I think this is

01:12:30.700 extra cool.

01:12:31.540 So I spent a

01:12:33.560 lot of time

01:12:34.080 looking at

01:12:35.560 the misalignment

01:12:37.120 of AIM.

01:12:37.580 I spent a lot of

01:12:38.280 time investigating

01:12:39.060 evil, a lot.

01:12:41.540 And evil is

01:12:43.080 actually something

01:12:44.360 you can point to

01:12:45.180 quite simply in

01:12:46.520 some ways.

01:12:47.560 It's a rare

01:12:48.080 person who

01:12:49.060 wouldn't think

01:12:49.840 that a sadistic

01:12:50.960 Auschwitz guard who

01:12:51.940 enjoyed his job

01:12:52.880 was, that's

01:12:55.100 evil.

01:12:55.880 And people will

01:12:56.820 dispute that, but

01:12:57.580 you don't have to

01:12:58.560 talk to the people

01:12:59.280 who will dispute

01:12:59.940 that.

01:13:01.420 It's not

01:13:02.120 useful.

01:13:05.840 It's fairly easy

01:13:06.780 to point to, but

01:13:07.440 the antithesis of

01:13:08.720 that is not easy

01:13:09.620 to specify.

01:13:10.540 Like, good as

01:13:11.960 such is harder to

01:13:12.880 specify as a

01:13:13.700 point than evil

01:13:14.940 is.

01:13:15.580 But I think,

01:13:16.860 tell me what you

01:13:17.660 think about this.

01:13:18.320 So I spent a lot

01:13:19.380 of time studying

01:13:20.100 Yach Panksepp,

01:13:21.140 who I think is

01:13:22.740 absolutely brilliant.

01:13:23.680 Do you know about

01:13:24.140 Panksepp?

01:13:24.720 Yeah.

01:13:25.160 Well, he spent a lot

01:13:26.000 of time studying

01:13:29.960 play, especially in

01:13:32.360 children.

01:13:32.820 And he was the

01:13:33.840 first person to

01:13:34.640 identify the play

01:13:35.820 circuit in mammals,

01:13:37.220 that it was actually

01:13:37.880 a specialized

01:13:38.960 circuit.

01:13:39.540 And to

01:13:39.820 differentiate it from

01:13:40.940 the exploratory

01:13:41.960 circuit, because a

01:13:42.840 lot of

01:13:43.560 neurophysiologists

01:13:44.740 had presumed that

01:13:46.320 exploration and play

01:13:47.540 were identical.

01:13:48.560 They're aligned,

01:13:49.240 because they're both

01:13:49.940 in the positive

01:13:50.500 emotion space, but

01:13:51.640 there is a separate

01:13:52.840 circuitry for play.

01:13:54.720 And I think that

01:13:55.760 play, I think play

01:13:58.600 is the antithesis of

01:14:00.160 tyranny, and I

01:14:02.140 think that play is

01:14:03.820 the place where

01:14:04.680 that plenitude makes

01:14:06.500 itself manifest in a

01:14:08.820 manner that doesn't

01:14:09.880 blow the frame badly

01:14:11.240 enough to terrify.

01:14:13.580 Right?

01:14:14.040 So, yeah, right,

01:14:15.380 exactly.

01:14:16.020 So you can see that,

01:14:17.360 right?

01:14:17.500 I mean, that's why

01:14:18.000 children are driven

01:14:18.720 to play, but that's

01:14:20.160 also, so in your

01:14:21.440 relationship, you said

01:14:22.580 that you've been able

01:14:23.380 to discover, let's say,

01:14:24.660 a multitude within

01:14:25.780 yourself and within

01:14:26.720 your partner, and

01:14:27.520 that you've also

01:14:28.500 practiced that, which

01:14:29.760 I would like to also

01:14:30.880 ask you about.

01:14:32.600 Like, my sense with

01:14:34.260 my wife is that when

01:14:35.320 we're doing things,

01:14:37.220 when things are

01:14:37.860 optimized, we're

01:14:39.640 playing house.

01:14:40.720 That's a good way of

01:14:41.500 thinking about it.

01:14:42.180 That sense is

01:14:43.600 replicated in our

01:14:44.860 adult life, and

01:14:45.840 it's what children

01:14:46.720 are aiming at when,

01:14:47.680 of course, they do

01:14:48.260 that kind of

01:14:48.820 pretense play when

01:14:49.660 they're young.

01:14:51.040 So I want to know

01:14:51.720 what you think about

01:14:52.420 that idea of play,

01:14:54.060 because play also has

01:14:54.920 to be voluntary,

01:14:55.880 right?

01:14:56.160 It can't be

01:14:56.960 compelled.

01:14:57.860 No force in play,

01:14:59.980 you know, unless

01:15:00.640 you're playing force,

01:15:01.940 which, you know, is

01:15:02.720 a special case.

01:15:03.540 You can do that, but

01:15:04.400 it's still voluntary.

01:15:05.740 So I'd like you to

01:15:07.080 tell me what you

01:15:08.320 think about the play

01:15:09.140 idea, and then I'd

01:15:09.940 also like you to,

01:15:11.560 you said you've

01:15:12.320 practiced this way of

01:15:13.600 looking at things.

01:15:14.360 So I'd like to

01:15:15.520 know about that,

01:15:16.240 because people don't

01:15:17.240 understand what a

01:15:18.060 practice like that

01:15:18.960 is, you know.

01:15:19.860 We practice all sorts

01:15:21.040 of things, like

01:15:21.640 basketball skills, but

01:15:23.120 we don't practice

01:15:24.560 perceiving other

01:15:25.500 people as a

01:15:26.420 multitude, let's say.

01:15:28.420 That's not a

01:15:29.220 standard practice.

01:15:30.700 So play, and then

01:15:32.100 that practice.

01:15:34.720 Play, I agree, is

01:15:36.220 beautiful and

01:15:37.240 wonderful, and I

01:15:38.160 think it's also,

01:15:39.100 it's a wonderful

01:15:40.380 example of the two

01:15:42.500 concepts I would

01:15:43.340 put up against

01:15:43.920 each other would

01:15:44.560 be evil and

01:15:47.260 love rather than

01:15:49.300 evil and good.

01:15:50.560 And that's because

01:15:51.180 I see everything is

01:15:53.440 relational in my

01:15:54.520 worldview.

01:15:55.120 I don't have sort

01:15:55.840 of entities out

01:15:57.080 there, apart,

01:15:58.420 outside human

01:15:59.560 interaction.

01:16:00.820 There's something

01:16:01.420 evil in itself.

01:16:03.140 There's evilness, a

01:16:05.040 lot of it in human

01:16:06.100 interaction, and love

01:16:07.320 in a lot of it.

01:16:08.720 I see evil as

01:16:10.040 closing the

01:16:11.700 barrier to the

01:16:12.500 other person,

01:16:13.660 ignoring their

01:16:14.800 pain, ignoring

01:16:16.780 their problem,

01:16:18.540 ignoring that you

01:16:19.820 do bad stuff for

01:16:21.580 them.

01:16:22.320 I see love as the

01:16:23.700 total openness.

01:16:26.340 I exchange

01:16:27.520 everything with you.

01:16:28.560 I don't withhold

01:16:29.680 anything.

01:16:30.940 I don't reject

01:16:32.600 anything.

01:16:33.320 I just take it

01:16:34.320 because it comes

01:16:35.780 from you, and I

01:16:36.660 love you.

01:16:37.120 And in that

01:16:40.460 sense, I think

01:16:41.200 players is a

01:16:42.260 wonderful example

01:16:43.220 of exercising

01:16:45.020 the ability to

01:16:47.040 exchange fully

01:16:50.520 with the other

01:16:51.060 person.

01:16:52.960 While evil is,

01:16:54.380 I don't want to

01:16:55.020 play with you.

01:16:55.740 I don't want to

01:16:56.240 have anything to

01:16:57.780 do with you.

01:16:58.960 I have done with

01:17:00.260 many audiences

01:17:01.800 a little game

01:17:05.060 that I call the

01:17:05.740 tickling game.

01:17:07.120 which was

01:17:08.360 inspired actually

01:17:09.180 by a new

01:17:11.060 psychological

01:17:12.780 experiment done

01:17:13.840 many years ago

01:17:14.460 in England

01:17:14.880 by a group of

01:17:16.260 scientists who

01:17:16.940 were studying

01:17:17.980 whether you

01:17:19.320 could tickle

01:17:19.780 yourself.

01:17:21.280 Right, right.

01:17:22.660 You can if

01:17:23.880 you're

01:17:24.060 schizophrenic,

01:17:24.980 apparently.

01:17:26.240 Exactly.

01:17:26.960 And Chris

01:17:27.300 Smith, who

01:17:28.100 made that

01:17:28.820 discovery, was

01:17:29.740 part of this

01:17:30.320 group.

01:17:31.560 Oh, okay,

01:17:32.260 okay.

01:17:32.580 they made a

01:17:34.040 tickling machine

01:17:34.740 so you could

01:17:35.340 move sticks

01:17:36.580 that in a

01:17:37.640 complicated way

01:17:38.400 would actually

01:17:38.920 tickle your

01:17:39.520 skin.

01:17:40.680 And then you

01:17:41.060 could tickle

01:17:41.520 yourself even

01:17:42.220 if you're not

01:17:42.820 a schizophrenic

01:17:43.580 because you

01:17:43.920 didn't know

01:17:44.480 when and how

01:17:45.620 the tickling

01:17:46.100 would be.

01:17:46.640 But basically,

01:17:48.040 when you

01:17:48.400 tickle yourself,

01:17:49.320 your brain

01:17:49.820 already knows

01:17:50.580 what your hand

01:17:51.180 is doing so

01:17:51.880 there's no

01:17:52.320 tickling sensation.

01:17:53.360 But if you

01:17:54.440 tickle the

01:17:54.880 person next

01:17:55.540 to you,

01:17:56.640 he or she

01:17:57.720 will have a

01:17:59.300 giggling and

01:18:00.340 it'll tickle.

01:18:01.780 And sometimes

01:18:02.160 I do with

01:18:03.160 audiences,

01:18:04.300 I ask people

01:18:05.200 experiment two

01:18:07.220 rounds.

01:18:08.160 First round,

01:18:08.840 tickle yourself.

01:18:10.120 Doesn't tickle.

01:18:11.780 Very basic.

01:18:13.900 Second round,

01:18:14.640 you tickle the

01:18:15.140 person sitting

01:18:15.680 next to you

01:18:16.720 on the left.

01:18:18.100 And you have

01:18:18.860 these 800

01:18:19.440 people going

01:18:20.200 from just

01:18:20.660 sitting there

01:18:21.240 to yelling

01:18:22.560 and screaming

01:18:23.180 in two

01:18:25.300 seconds.

01:18:26.340 It's a

01:18:26.620 dramatic

01:18:27.040 thing.

01:18:28.040 And then

01:18:28.420 you say,

01:18:28.800 oh,

01:18:29.040 somebody didn't

01:18:29.700 get any

01:18:30.140 fun here,

01:18:31.040 so now

01:18:31.540 you tickle

01:18:32.200 to your

01:18:32.560 right.

01:18:33.740 People

01:18:34.260 scream and

01:18:34.860 yell again.

01:18:35.800 And this

01:18:36.220 is a

01:18:36.480 beautiful

01:18:36.740 example

01:18:37.300 of,

01:18:37.820 in my

01:18:38.080 view,

01:18:38.860 that the

01:18:41.600 only thing

01:18:42.280 that's

01:18:42.560 interesting

01:18:42.940 about other

01:18:43.560 human beings

01:18:44.900 is that

01:18:45.940 they're

01:18:46.200 surprising.

01:18:47.480 They surprise

01:18:48.320 us.

01:18:48.780 They do

01:18:49.260 things that

01:18:49.860 we cannot

01:18:50.240 control.

01:18:51.320 That's why

01:18:51.760 they're so

01:18:52.180 interesting and

01:18:52.860 so nice

01:18:53.300 to us.

01:18:53.800 We like

01:18:54.420 being surprised.

01:18:55.860 Yeah,

01:18:56.120 yeah.

01:18:56.560 But of

01:18:56.880 course,

01:18:57.180 if you

01:18:57.520 went into

01:18:58.120 the,

01:18:58.520 to the,

01:18:59.840 to the,

01:19:02.620 what you

01:19:03.360 call the

01:19:03.840 subway,

01:19:04.740 the metro

01:19:05.640 train,

01:19:06.700 the U-bahn,

01:19:08.240 the S,

01:19:09.060 the train in

01:19:10.400 the city,

01:19:11.020 and suddenly

01:19:12.400 somebody would

01:19:12.920 tickle you.

01:19:13.900 That wouldn't

01:19:14.560 be fun.

01:19:15.020 That would

01:19:15.260 be scary.

01:19:16.640 So you

01:19:17.240 don't want to,

01:19:17.980 you don't want

01:19:18.660 no control,

01:19:19.400 no control,

01:19:20.340 like in the

01:19:20.960 train,

01:19:21.840 and you

01:19:22.120 don't want

01:19:22.580 full control

01:19:23.520 like when

01:19:23.980 you tickle

01:19:24.400 yourself.

01:19:25.280 What you

01:19:25.620 like is

01:19:26.140 sort of

01:19:26.400 the in

01:19:26.760 between

01:19:27.180 of,

01:19:27.900 yeah,

01:19:28.160 between

01:19:28.440 control

01:19:29.080 and,

01:19:29.660 and,

01:19:30.160 and predictability

01:19:31.520 on the one

01:19:32.340 hand and loss

01:19:33.340 of control

01:19:34.100 on the other

01:19:34.480 hand.

01:19:34.780 That's,

01:19:35.220 that's the

01:19:35.620 nice thing.

01:19:36.500 That's the,

01:19:37.080 that tickle you.

01:19:38.000 Do you

01:19:38.700 suppose that,

01:19:39.820 okay,

01:19:40.260 so you

01:19:41.140 contrasted

01:19:42.180 evil with

01:19:43.540 love,

01:19:44.640 and so

01:19:45.100 one of the

01:19:47.560 things I was

01:19:48.060 thinking about

01:19:48.620 when you were

01:19:49.040 talking about

01:19:49.620 this game

01:19:50.240 was that,

01:19:51.360 like,

01:19:52.380 it seems to

01:19:53.360 me that love

01:19:53.980 is manifest

01:19:54.620 most clearly

01:19:55.440 in a state

01:19:56.020 of play.

01:19:58.060 One of the

01:19:58.480 things I've

01:19:58.880 noticed with

01:19:59.320 my wife,

01:19:59.920 for example,

01:20:00.460 is that if

01:20:00.940 there's anything

01:20:01.540 between us,

01:20:03.220 you know,

01:20:03.440 an obstacle,

01:20:04.560 conceptual obstacle,

01:20:05.660 a disagreement

01:20:06.220 about something,

01:20:07.100 it's much more

01:20:08.180 difficult to

01:20:08.860 enter into

01:20:09.220 that state

01:20:09.680 of play.

01:20:10.060 That has to

01:20:10.520 be cleared

01:20:10.920 away before

01:20:12.120 that can

01:20:12.520 really happen.

01:20:14.040 And so

01:20:14.240 that's in

01:20:14.620 keeping with

01:20:16.020 Panksepp's

01:20:16.600 findings,

01:20:17.060 because Panksepp

01:20:17.780 found that

01:20:18.260 play was

01:20:18.700 very easily

01:20:19.360 suppressed by

01:20:20.220 virtually any

01:20:21.060 other motivational

01:20:21.980 state,

01:20:23.240 right?

01:20:23.660 So things

01:20:25.120 have to be

01:20:25.680 optimized,

01:20:26.320 okay?

01:20:26.640 And then

01:20:26.940 I wonder

01:20:28.920 if that,

01:20:29.620 if that

01:20:30.720 play,

01:20:32.320 like,

01:20:32.660 is a play,

01:20:33.360 is play a

01:20:34.180 reflection of

01:20:34.900 the love that

01:20:35.680 puts someone

01:20:36.240 on the border

01:20:37.020 between the

01:20:38.860 predictable and

01:20:39.500 the unpredictable

01:20:40.040 in that

01:20:40.540 optimized way.

01:20:42.500 You know,

01:20:42.700 because you see

01:20:43.120 people doing

01:20:43.620 that,

01:20:43.780 if you're

01:20:43.960 playing one-on-one

01:20:44.640 basketball with

01:20:45.420 someone,

01:20:45.740 you want a

01:20:46.400 competitor who

01:20:48.120 pushes you,

01:20:49.320 right?

01:20:50.120 You don't want

01:20:50.800 to be exactly

01:20:51.420 in your zone

01:20:51.980 of comfort,

01:20:52.600 you want to be

01:20:53.080 a little bit

01:20:53.500 outside that,

01:20:54.360 right?

01:20:55.180 You want to

01:20:55.640 have that,

01:20:56.560 it's a glimmer

01:20:57.920 of what's being

01:21:00.000 suppressed by your

01:21:01.500 aim,

01:21:01.780 you want to

01:21:02.100 have that still

01:21:02.780 around,

01:21:03.180 it's like a

01:21:03.620 halo,

01:21:04.060 that's another

01:21:04.480 way of thinking,

01:21:05.200 or a penumbra,

01:21:05.880 something like

01:21:06.800 that,

01:21:07.680 right?

01:21:07.840 Something that's

01:21:08.440 glowing,

01:21:09.360 that reminds you

01:21:11.220 of everything that

01:21:12.000 you're not

01:21:12.360 attending to at

01:21:13.120 the moment.

01:21:14.140 There's something

01:21:14.580 very rich about

01:21:15.400 that,

01:21:15.800 and,

01:21:16.680 you know,

01:21:17.000 your thoughts

01:21:17.880 about monoculture,

01:21:19.600 agriculture,

01:21:20.240 for example,

01:21:21.360 are an indication

01:21:22.200 of the,

01:21:25.440 you know,

01:21:25.980 there's an

01:21:26.900 insistence in the

01:21:29.080 Old Testament,

01:21:29.700 this is very

01:21:30.260 relevant,

01:21:30.740 this is something

01:21:31.140 I've been discussing

01:21:31.880 with some of my

01:21:32.400 friends a lot.

01:21:34.140 When the Old

01:21:34.900 Testament people

01:21:35.660 set out their

01:21:36.360 fields,

01:21:38.140 you know,

01:21:38.500 there's always

01:21:39.340 some uncertainty

01:21:41.100 about borders.

01:21:42.960 So there was

01:21:43.820 an insistence

01:21:44.820 in those

01:21:45.580 societies that

01:21:46.540 the margins

01:21:47.240 were for

01:21:47.820 gleaners,

01:21:49.020 right?

01:21:49.260 That's where

01:21:49.640 the poor

01:21:50.240 could find

01:21:51.640 their sustenance,

01:21:52.740 and the idea

01:21:53.660 under that was

01:21:54.360 that your

01:21:54.820 boundaries,

01:21:55.540 although necessary,

01:21:56.480 shouldn't be so

01:21:57.180 tight that there's

01:21:57.980 no room for

01:21:59.020 experimentation

01:22:00.220 and the

01:22:00.900 marginal,

01:22:02.200 right?

01:22:02.400 Which I think,

01:22:03.240 and also I

01:22:03.960 found out in

01:22:04.860 keeping with

01:22:05.380 this,

01:22:05.620 by the way,

01:22:06.080 you know,

01:22:06.360 there's a

01:22:06.720 hierarchy of

01:22:07.560 DNA repair

01:22:08.740 as a consequence

01:22:10.260 of mutation.

01:22:11.880 So there's

01:22:13.020 core DNA

01:22:13.900 structures that

01:22:15.180 if they

01:22:15.780 mutate,

01:22:16.300 they're repaired

01:22:16.820 with 100%

01:22:18.340 accuracy,

01:22:19.520 right?

01:22:20.660 And then there's

01:22:21.080 a hierarchy

01:22:21.780 so that

01:22:22.420 peripheral,

01:22:23.420 there are

01:22:23.700 peripheral genetic

01:22:25.400 codes that are

01:22:26.080 allowed to

01:22:26.520 mutate because

01:22:27.280 experimentation

01:22:27.880 can take place

01:22:28.980 there on the

01:22:29.880 fringe without

01:22:30.900 demolishing the

01:22:32.220 hole.

01:22:32.540 So that's

01:22:32.920 echoes,

01:22:33.440 that echoes

01:22:33.960 that idea

01:22:35.060 of the

01:22:36.460 center,

01:22:37.920 you know,

01:22:38.140 the focal

01:22:38.660 center with

01:22:40.040 the experimental

01:22:40.860 fringe,

01:22:42.060 that seems to

01:22:43.600 echo everywhere.

01:22:44.860 And that's

01:22:45.200 something like

01:22:45.680 the antidote

01:22:46.380 to that

01:22:46.820 narrow-minded

01:22:47.580 technological

01:22:48.460 efficiency that,

01:22:50.560 when did you

01:22:51.100 start to become

01:22:51.800 concerned with

01:22:52.500 that specifically?

01:22:53.600 Was that

01:22:53.920 associated with

01:22:54.780 your investigation

01:22:55.400 into consciousness?

01:22:57.780 With the

01:22:58.620 agriculture

01:22:59.900 problem?

01:23:00.980 Yeah,

01:23:01.320 yeah,

01:23:01.540 the idea

01:23:01.960 of this

01:23:02.300 pathological

01:23:02.980 narrowing.

01:23:04.040 Yeah,

01:23:04.460 I think

01:23:04.740 it's already

01:23:05.580 in,

01:23:06.180 it's very

01:23:06.780 much in

01:23:07.140 the consciousness

01:23:07.600 thing.

01:23:09.640 Not,

01:23:10.360 of course,

01:23:11.020 as fully

01:23:11.540 developed as

01:23:12.400 it became

01:23:13.200 later,

01:23:13.820 but this

01:23:14.920 worry that

01:23:16.180 if you

01:23:16.600 exchange

01:23:17.560 sort of

01:23:18.740 the terrain

01:23:20.460 with a

01:23:21.280 map,

01:23:22.220 the world

01:23:23.220 with a

01:23:23.540 concept,

01:23:24.920 the person

01:23:26.380 with the

01:23:26.940 idea of a

01:23:27.540 person,

01:23:28.380 which is

01:23:29.260 very much

01:23:29.700 what consciousness

01:23:30.260 does,

01:23:31.160 then you're

01:23:32.340 on the

01:23:33.280 wrong way.

01:23:35.800 There's a

01:23:36.240 thing about

01:23:36.680 our language,

01:23:38.100 which I think

01:23:39.680 was pointed

01:23:40.080 out about

01:23:40.560 100 years

01:23:41.100 ago,

01:23:42.200 which is a

01:23:43.440 very basic

01:23:44.020 thing about

01:23:44.460 language.

01:23:45.120 We say,

01:23:46.540 this flower

01:23:47.380 is red.

01:23:49.940 But no,

01:23:51.260 this flower

01:23:51.820 is many

01:23:52.420 things,

01:23:53.000 one of

01:23:54.120 them having

01:23:54.980 the color

01:23:56.140 of red.

01:23:57.340 This man

01:23:57.980 is angry,

01:23:59.560 yes,

01:24:00.520 but this

01:24:01.000 man is

01:24:01.360 also many

01:24:01.900 other things

01:24:02.500 than angry.

01:24:04.060 That's why I

01:24:04.880 don't like

01:24:05.360 to make

01:24:07.120 evil an

01:24:08.980 objective

01:24:09.460 thing in

01:24:10.260 the world

01:24:10.660 because I

01:24:11.160 think this

01:24:12.020 man is

01:24:12.360 evil,

01:24:12.840 yes,

01:24:13.320 but he's

01:24:13.860 also other

01:24:14.400 stuff.

01:24:15.160 This man

01:24:15.840 is good,

01:24:16.380 he's caring,

01:24:17.280 and so

01:24:18.460 we are

01:24:19.040 not the

01:24:19.740 mental

01:24:21.100 states,

01:24:21.720 the emotional

01:24:22.180 states,

01:24:22.960 the trait

01:24:23.520 states that

01:24:24.360 we have.

01:24:25.180 We are

01:24:25.480 more than

01:24:25.920 that.

01:24:26.340 We are

01:24:26.580 much richer

01:24:27.600 and we

01:24:28.720 have a

01:24:29.000 language

01:24:29.340 that all

01:24:30.560 the time

01:24:31.460 we say

01:24:31.960 he is

01:24:32.620 happy.

01:24:35.120 Yes,

01:24:35.420 he also

01:24:36.260 needs to

01:24:36.940 go to

01:24:37.260 the toilet

01:24:37.660 in the

01:24:38.160 moment.

01:24:38.740 You

01:24:38.860 understand?

01:24:40.600 So I

01:24:41.960 think

01:24:42.260 studying

01:24:44.420 consciousness

01:24:44.900 very much

01:24:45.560 brought my

01:24:46.040 attention to

01:24:46.700 this very,

01:24:47.540 very simple

01:24:48.060 fact that

01:24:49.020 we tend

01:24:49.740 to reduce

01:24:51.240 everything.

01:24:53.360 And it's

01:24:54.240 practical in

01:24:55.040 the sense

01:24:55.480 that I

01:24:55.880 can point

01:24:56.460 to the

01:24:56.940 flower and

01:24:57.900 say it's

01:24:58.260 red and

01:24:58.660 you can

01:24:58.940 not and

01:24:59.420 say it's

01:24:59.780 red and

01:25:00.380 we are in

01:25:01.520 correspondence

01:25:02.020 here and

01:25:02.520 it's good.

01:25:03.640 But we

01:25:04.160 also lose,

01:25:05.540 each of

01:25:06.000 us,

01:25:06.640 lose a

01:25:07.420 lot of

01:25:07.820 the experience

01:25:08.800 and the

01:25:09.800 sensing of

01:25:10.800 the flower

01:25:11.700 if we

01:25:12.400 reduce it

01:25:12.980 to being

01:25:13.380 red.

01:25:14.940 Have you

01:25:15.620 talked to

01:25:16.320 Ian

01:25:16.700 McGilchrist?

01:25:18.320 No,

01:25:18.880 I've heard

01:25:19.220 his name,

01:25:19.920 yes.

01:25:20.640 Okay,

01:25:21.000 well,

01:25:21.280 so I

01:25:21.640 just,

01:25:22.340 I know

01:25:22.800 Ian and

01:25:23.220 we just

01:25:23.700 did another

01:25:24.160 podcast which

01:25:25.080 will be

01:25:25.340 released soon.

01:25:26.140 So his

01:25:27.220 sense,

01:25:28.560 he's done a

01:25:29.040 lot of

01:25:29.320 investigation into

01:25:30.260 hemispheric

01:25:30.740 function,

01:25:31.520 right?

01:25:32.120 And his

01:25:33.460 work is

01:25:34.420 very much

01:25:34.880 in keeping,

01:25:35.660 I would

01:25:35.900 say,

01:25:36.220 with the

01:25:37.080 main thrust

01:25:37.560 of your

01:25:37.880 work.

01:25:39.680 And I

01:25:40.680 think he's

01:25:41.140 got the

01:25:41.520 neuropsychological

01:25:42.440 terrain mapped

01:25:43.320 quite nicely

01:25:43.980 is that

01:25:44.440 the right

01:25:45.120 hemisphere

01:25:45.540 seems to

01:25:46.200 be,

01:25:47.120 I would

01:25:47.900 say,

01:25:48.160 more

01:25:48.320 comfortable

01:25:48.800 in the

01:25:49.360 domain of

01:25:49.940 plenitude

01:25:50.420 and the

01:25:50.900 left hemisphere

01:25:51.540 is the

01:25:52.440 reducer.

01:25:53.060 And,

01:25:54.180 you know,

01:25:56.220 the,

01:25:57.680 it's possible,

01:25:58.580 tell me what you

01:25:59.100 think about this

01:25:59.760 on an ethical

01:26:00.360 side,

01:26:00.840 because we

01:26:01.100 talked about,

01:26:01.640 I talked about

01:26:02.060 this with

01:26:02.440 Ian,

01:26:03.660 because people

01:26:04.600 with right

01:26:05.040 hemisphere damage

01:26:05.880 get kind of

01:26:06.760 tyrannical and

01:26:07.480 authoritarian and

01:26:08.440 they get very

01:26:09.060 reductionistic,

01:26:09.860 much more

01:26:11.160 than someone

01:26:12.380 who's

01:26:12.640 neurologically

01:26:13.200 intact.

01:26:13.700 And I

01:26:13.920 asked him,

01:26:14.420 well,

01:26:15.340 is that

01:26:15.840 worse among

01:26:16.680 people who

01:26:17.240 were already

01:26:18.040 that way

01:26:18.700 before the

01:26:19.220 brain damage,

01:26:20.000 right?

01:26:20.160 Is there

01:26:20.460 individual

01:26:20.900 variation?

01:26:21.760 So,

01:26:22.280 if you

01:26:22.640 were a

01:26:22.980 narrowing

01:26:23.480 intellect

01:26:23.880 with an

01:26:25.180 authoritarian

01:26:25.780 bent,

01:26:26.580 were you

01:26:26.820 more like

01:26:27.360 that if

01:26:27.740 you damaged

01:26:28.960 your right

01:26:29.300 hemisphere?

01:26:29.780 Of course,

01:26:30.100 there isn't

01:26:30.480 enough case

01:26:31.420 history to

01:26:32.000 know that.

01:26:33.000 But I'm

01:26:33.360 wondering,

01:26:34.580 there's an

01:26:35.420 insistence

01:26:36.300 in

01:26:37.700 archaic

01:26:38.600 literature,

01:26:39.080 I've

01:26:40.000 really

01:26:40.160 seen this

01:26:40.600 in the

01:26:40.840 biblical

01:26:41.120 corpus.

01:26:41.620 I just

01:26:41.860 wrote a

01:26:42.160 book about

01:26:42.540 this,

01:26:42.840 which is

01:26:43.260 going to

01:26:43.540 come out

01:26:43.820 in November.

01:26:44.640 I'm

01:26:44.840 lecturing

01:26:45.160 about it

01:26:45.520 now,

01:26:45.760 so it's

01:26:45.960 very much

01:26:46.320 on my

01:26:46.560 mind.

01:26:47.940 That

01:26:48.140 narrowing

01:26:49.440 proclivity

01:26:50.180 is like

01:26:52.560 the sin

01:26:53.220 of Adam's

01:26:54.120 job in

01:26:55.160 the Garden

01:26:55.540 of Eden.

01:26:55.920 His job

01:26:56.560 is to

01:26:56.920 name and

01:26:57.660 subdue,

01:26:58.480 right?

01:26:58.660 To name

01:26:59.200 and put

01:26:59.700 in place.

01:27:01.000 But pride,

01:27:02.340 it's the

01:27:02.980 pride element

01:27:03.860 that seems

01:27:04.460 to warp

01:27:05.040 that.

01:27:05.480 It's like

01:27:05.800 it isn't

01:27:06.200 even so much

01:27:06.820 that we

01:27:07.200 narrow,

01:27:07.660 it's that

01:27:07.960 we narrow

01:27:08.560 and then

01:27:08.900 we fall

01:27:09.440 in love

01:27:09.960 with our

01:27:10.440 own

01:27:10.720 narrowing.

01:27:11.640 And that's

01:27:12.120 the pride.

01:27:12.760 And then

01:27:13.080 we want to

01:27:13.600 substitute

01:27:14.140 that

01:27:14.580 narrowing

01:27:15.180 for

01:27:15.940 reality

01:27:17.080 itself.

01:27:18.040 This is

01:27:18.480 what God

01:27:18.980 warns about,

01:27:19.980 by the way,

01:27:20.480 in the story

01:27:21.000 of Adam

01:27:21.840 and Eve

01:27:22.180 when he

01:27:22.480 tells

01:27:22.820 both of

01:27:23.940 them that

01:27:24.220 they can't

01:27:24.760 eat of

01:27:25.040 the fruit

01:27:25.380 of the

01:27:25.600 knowledge

01:27:25.880 of good

01:27:26.200 and evil.

01:27:26.760 This idea

01:27:27.440 is lurking

01:27:27.940 at the

01:27:28.240 bottom

01:27:28.480 of that.

01:27:28.880 It's like

01:27:29.200 you can

01:27:29.940 do what

01:27:30.280 you want

01:27:30.680 but you

01:27:31.100 can't

01:27:32.560 replace

01:27:33.560 the moral

01:27:34.260 order with

01:27:34.840 your own

01:27:35.240 set of

01:27:35.660 preconceptualizations.

01:27:36.840 And that's

01:27:38.420 what you're

01:27:38.740 pointing to,

01:27:39.500 right?

01:27:39.680 I don't

01:27:40.120 want to put

01:27:40.440 words in

01:27:40.840 your mouth

01:27:41.140 but that's

01:27:42.220 what's lurking

01:27:42.760 underneath this.

01:27:43.500 It's not

01:27:43.880 merely,

01:27:44.580 it's not

01:27:44.940 the reduction

01:27:45.580 per se

01:27:46.220 because that's

01:27:46.840 necessary to

01:27:47.480 have a point.

01:27:48.680 It's something

01:27:49.220 like,

01:27:49.720 is it the

01:27:50.260 totalitarian

01:27:51.060 insistence that

01:27:52.100 we got the

01:27:52.740 reduction right

01:27:53.680 and that's

01:27:54.400 that?

01:27:54.820 yes,

01:27:56.840 we confuse

01:27:58.840 the world

01:27:59.780 with our

01:28:00.740 image or

01:28:01.460 our concept

01:28:02.660 of the

01:28:03.100 world.

01:28:03.940 We confuse

01:28:04.720 the person

01:28:06.020 with the

01:28:08.360 idea we

01:28:10.380 have of

01:28:10.980 the person.

01:28:12.340 So you

01:28:13.260 can see,

01:28:14.020 it's my

01:28:14.720 sense,

01:28:15.800 that that's

01:28:16.680 allied with

01:28:17.360 the totalitarian

01:28:18.260 proclivity

01:28:18.920 because I

01:28:20.740 think that

01:28:21.160 becomes

01:28:21.600 pathologized

01:28:22.720 when it's

01:28:23.940 allied with

01:28:24.600 force.

01:28:26.760 Right?

01:28:27.060 It's that,

01:28:27.740 yeah,

01:28:28.140 well it's that

01:28:28.640 not only

01:28:29.340 do I want

01:28:30.700 you to be

01:28:31.500 in the box

01:28:32.380 I put you

01:28:32.940 in,

01:28:33.300 plus everything

01:28:33.940 else,

01:28:34.600 but if you're

01:28:35.860 not,

01:28:36.240 then look the

01:28:36.800 hell out

01:28:37.200 for me

01:28:37.760 because I

01:28:38.340 can impose

01:28:40.380 that.

01:28:41.500 So here's

01:28:42.100 a cool thing.

01:28:44.220 So in the

01:28:45.780 story of

01:28:46.240 Moses,

01:28:47.040 Moses is

01:28:47.680 leading the

01:28:48.560 Israelites to

01:28:49.280 the promised

01:28:49.760 land,

01:28:50.140 right?

01:28:50.340 So it's a

01:28:51.300 quest story

01:28:52.780 and that's

01:28:54.760 the land of

01:28:55.380 milk and

01:28:55.820 honey,

01:28:56.180 right?

01:28:56.380 It's the

01:28:56.680 land of

01:28:57.060 eternal promise

01:28:57.840 and so that's

01:28:58.440 always what

01:28:58.900 we're doing

01:28:59.320 and that's

01:28:59.720 what a

01:28:59.960 leader is

01:29:00.380 always doing

01:29:01.060 if he's

01:29:01.800 any sort

01:29:02.200 of leader

01:29:02.500 at all.

01:29:02.900 Now,

01:29:03.460 Moses'

01:29:04.160 fundamental

01:29:04.600 temptation

01:29:05.100 is to

01:29:05.720 use

01:29:05.980 force,

01:29:07.300 which is

01:29:07.980 the temptation

01:29:08.620 of a

01:29:08.980 leader.

01:29:09.700 And he

01:29:10.060 uses force

01:29:10.680 a number

01:29:11.060 of times

01:29:11.540 in the

01:29:12.580 story,

01:29:13.020 but when

01:29:14.220 he's on

01:29:14.560 the verge

01:29:15.080 of leading

01:29:15.860 the Israelites

01:29:16.380 into the

01:29:16.860 promised

01:29:17.180 land,

01:29:18.400 God tells

01:29:19.020 him the

01:29:19.580 Israelites run

01:29:20.180 out of

01:29:20.420 water and

01:29:20.860 God tells

01:29:21.500 Moses to

01:29:22.280 use his

01:29:22.840 words to

01:29:23.560 elicit water

01:29:24.620 from the

01:29:25.040 rocks and

01:29:25.540 Moses doesn't.

01:29:26.420 He hits the

01:29:27.000 rocks with

01:29:27.460 his rod of

01:29:28.080 authority.

01:29:29.420 He strikes

01:29:29.860 them twice and

01:29:31.040 God tells him

01:29:33.320 that he won't

01:29:33.920 enter the

01:29:34.280 promised land

01:29:34.820 as a

01:29:35.100 consequence of

01:29:35.700 that.

01:29:36.880 And I

01:29:37.140 think that's

01:29:37.840 a story of

01:29:39.620 the alliance

01:29:40.400 of narrowing

01:29:41.780 and force,

01:29:43.960 right?

01:29:44.200 It's that

01:29:44.520 while leader

01:29:44.980 has to

01:29:45.440 specify a

01:29:46.180 direction and

01:29:46.780 that does

01:29:47.240 mean the

01:29:48.020 sacrifice of

01:29:48.940 all other

01:29:49.300 potential

01:29:49.720 directions,

01:29:50.440 obviously.

01:29:51.720 And then you

01:29:52.120 might say,

01:29:52.580 well, when

01:29:52.880 does that go

01:29:53.420 too far?

01:29:54.120 And it's

01:29:54.640 something like,

01:29:55.300 well, when

01:29:56.240 it's no longer

01:29:56.960 invitational,

01:29:58.340 when it's

01:29:59.000 imposed, it

01:30:00.520 crosses the

01:30:01.280 line.

01:30:02.700 Well, when

01:30:03.360 you don't

01:30:03.740 listen to

01:30:04.200 the rock,

01:30:05.020 the only way

01:30:05.540 you will get

01:30:05.920 water out of

01:30:06.520 the rock is

01:30:07.200 if you listen

01:30:07.860 to the rock

01:30:08.500 and interact

01:30:09.140 with the rock.

01:30:10.520 If you just

01:30:11.280 punish the rock

01:30:12.200 or hit the

01:30:13.060 rock, you're

01:30:14.760 not having a

01:30:15.980 fair interaction

01:30:16.760 with the rock.

01:30:18.000 So, power

01:30:19.600 is about not

01:30:20.900 listening, doing

01:30:22.140 stuff to people

01:30:23.440 without listening

01:30:24.220 for their

01:30:25.460 cries and

01:30:26.100 their sorrows.

01:30:28.060 And, of

01:30:28.780 course, if

01:30:29.080 you're the

01:30:29.620 president and

01:30:30.300 you can hit

01:30:31.080 that bottom

01:30:31.620 and you can

01:30:32.080 kill 100,000

01:30:33.120 people, there's

01:30:34.280 no way you

01:30:35.580 could know

01:30:36.080 about the

01:30:36.880 screaming you

01:30:37.580 produce.

01:30:38.380 And that's

01:30:38.760 power.

01:30:40.080 So, okay, so

01:30:40.680 that ties into

01:30:41.600 your, now,

01:30:42.540 earlier you

01:30:43.420 juxtaposed love

01:30:44.720 against evil and

01:30:45.820 you assimilated

01:30:47.020 love to

01:30:47.560 relation and

01:30:48.260 you said

01:30:48.640 everything in

01:30:49.180 your world was

01:30:49.780 relational.

01:30:50.920 So, the

01:30:51.780 insistence in

01:30:52.680 the biblical

01:30:53.140 corpus is that

01:30:54.080 our fundamental

01:30:54.920 mode of being

01:30:55.780 in the world

01:30:56.240 is relational,

01:30:57.120 right?

01:30:57.280 That's what the

01:30:57.800 covenantal idea

01:30:59.080 is attempting

01:30:59.820 to express.

01:31:00.580 It's relational.

01:31:01.500 And so, but

01:31:02.540 I'm curious about,

01:31:03.720 see, you said

01:31:04.260 something very

01:31:04.780 specific there,

01:31:05.660 right?

01:31:05.880 Because you

01:31:06.220 associated love

01:31:08.620 as the antithesis

01:31:09.460 of evil and you

01:31:10.300 immediately also

01:31:11.380 expanded that to

01:31:12.940 describe relational.

01:31:14.460 And you said

01:31:15.140 that your

01:31:16.060 interaction with

01:31:16.820 the world is

01:31:17.320 relational at

01:31:18.560 every level.

01:31:19.600 Okay, so what

01:31:21.100 do you mean by

01:31:21.640 that?

01:31:22.080 And how did you

01:31:22.960 come to that

01:31:23.580 understanding?

01:31:25.860 On several

01:31:26.880 levels.

01:31:28.480 One thing that

01:31:29.380 I've been dealing

01:31:29.920 a lot with in

01:31:30.700 the past year has

01:31:31.620 been quantum

01:31:32.720 physics.

01:31:33.280 That seems very

01:31:34.160 different from all

01:31:34.980 of what we're

01:31:35.440 talking about here.

01:31:36.760 But there's, in

01:31:37.660 this quantum

01:31:38.560 physics, there's a

01:31:40.440 strong tradition

01:31:42.460 of interpreting

01:31:43.400 it as all

01:31:44.960 relations,

01:31:46.340 relationships.

01:31:48.220 And all the

01:31:48.940 problems you

01:31:49.640 get in

01:31:50.820 interpreting

01:31:51.640 quantum mechanics

01:31:52.380 is when you

01:31:52.960 say it's out

01:31:53.980 there, it's an

01:31:54.820 object, it's

01:31:56.600 independent of

01:31:57.460 me, and when

01:31:58.240 you start thinking

01:31:59.180 that way, you

01:32:00.000 have all these

01:32:00.720 dilemmas and

01:32:02.080 paradoxes of

01:32:03.220 quantum mechanics.

01:32:04.360 If you think of

01:32:05.420 it all as

01:32:06.040 relationships you

01:32:07.060 enter into, and

01:32:08.340 that it's not

01:32:09.120 meaningful to ask

01:32:10.120 what is the

01:32:11.120 world like when

01:32:12.100 I don't interact

01:32:13.160 with it, that

01:32:16.000 is simply not a

01:32:17.260 meaningful question

01:32:18.020 to ask, because

01:32:19.240 if I don't

01:32:19.860 interact with the

01:32:20.920 world, how

01:32:21.300 could, I mean,

01:32:22.980 it doesn't make

01:32:23.600 sense to ask how

01:32:24.560 it would be if I

01:32:26.040 don't do that.

01:32:26.920 So, in many

01:32:27.900 walks of life, I

01:32:28.840 find the same

01:32:29.740 basic structure,

01:32:31.100 it's relational,

01:32:32.500 and that you

01:32:33.740 have to accept

01:32:35.080 that unperformed

01:32:38.400 experiments have

01:32:39.420 no outcomes.

01:32:40.780 I mean, if

01:32:42.480 you don't do

01:32:43.640 things, nothing

01:32:44.680 happens.

01:32:46.320 And our social

01:32:47.700 relations are of

01:32:48.600 the same nature,

01:32:49.500 that it's all

01:32:50.080 about interacting.

01:32:51.760 And what is

01:32:52.440 this guy like

01:32:53.380 really if I

01:32:54.940 don't interact

01:32:55.840 with him?

01:32:56.640 I don't know.

01:32:57.620 What is this

01:32:58.300 guy like really

01:32:59.460 if you don't

01:33:00.220 interact?

01:33:00.820 I don't know.

01:33:01.700 I'm a relational

01:33:02.600 creature in that

01:33:04.400 thing.

01:33:05.140 And what's

01:33:05.580 happening inside

01:33:06.520 my head is

01:33:07.780 relational.

01:33:09.320 And I think

01:33:09.660 that's, in

01:33:10.720 many ways, the

01:33:11.300 most fundamental

01:33:12.200 aspect of this

01:33:13.260 whole consciousness

01:33:14.000 thing is to

01:33:15.220 understand that

01:33:15.960 my consciousness

01:33:18.100 is the

01:33:20.300 collective of

01:33:21.020 human beings

01:33:21.680 in my head.

01:33:23.660 I sort of, I

01:33:24.440 see and

01:33:25.340 understand and

01:33:26.220 put words to

01:33:27.160 the world

01:33:27.740 through some

01:33:29.320 kind of eyes

01:33:30.580 of everyone,

01:33:31.760 the collective

01:33:32.560 eye of

01:33:33.200 everyone.

01:33:33.860 Yeah, yeah.

01:33:34.480 that's my

01:33:35.100 consciousness.

01:33:36.360 And then I

01:33:37.100 have my

01:33:37.460 private

01:33:37.860 experience, my

01:33:39.020 sort of

01:33:39.340 mystical

01:33:39.700 experience, my

01:33:40.760 psychedelic

01:33:41.980 experience, if

01:33:42.720 you like.

01:33:43.160 I'm not very

01:33:43.580 much into

01:33:43.980 that, but

01:33:44.500 you could

01:33:45.280 have that.

01:33:46.340 And that's

01:33:46.940 sort of very

01:33:47.520 direct and

01:33:48.200 very rude.

01:33:50.520 But it's

01:33:51.660 also very

01:33:52.120 private.

01:33:52.980 And then you

01:33:53.860 can have

01:33:54.280 this, I

01:33:55.540 see the

01:33:56.080 world through

01:33:56.640 the eyes of

01:33:57.600 my friends and

01:33:59.060 their concepts.

01:34:01.040 And that's what

01:34:02.020 consciousness is

01:34:02.760 about.

01:34:03.040 And that's

01:34:03.680 why it's

01:34:03.960 so useful

01:34:04.640 and also

01:34:05.620 dangerous if

01:34:08.040 we forget

01:34:09.840 the red

01:34:10.340 law.

01:34:11.100 Okay, so

01:34:11.600 is it fair

01:34:12.920 to say that

01:34:13.900 you've

01:34:15.540 concluded

01:34:15.980 that

01:34:16.480 what's real

01:34:22.440 is no

01:34:22.860 difference,

01:34:23.620 there's no

01:34:24.160 difference between

01:34:24.840 what's real

01:34:25.520 and what

01:34:26.060 emerges as a

01:34:26.860 consequence of

01:34:27.660 what's relational.

01:34:28.880 And that's

01:34:29.720 the pinpoint of

01:34:31.500 consciousness.

01:34:31.980 consciousness.

01:34:32.700 I mean,

01:34:33.480 right, it

01:34:34.980 establishes that.

01:34:36.280 See, and

01:34:36.540 partly the

01:34:38.040 reason I'm

01:34:38.440 curious about

01:34:39.040 this is it's

01:34:40.320 because of the

01:34:41.980 implications of

01:34:42.740 what we've been

01:34:43.280 describing.

01:34:43.960 It's like,

01:34:45.140 well, if the

01:34:45.780 phenomenal

01:34:46.300 makes itself

01:34:48.260 apparent as a

01:34:49.180 consequence of

01:34:49.900 your aim,

01:34:51.120 then reality

01:34:53.460 itself emerges

01:34:54.460 in consequence of

01:34:56.100 your aim.

01:34:56.620 and I

01:34:57.220 actually believe

01:34:57.860 that's, I

01:34:58.520 don't know how

01:34:59.000 true that is,

01:34:59.820 but it's pretty

01:35:00.340 damn true.

01:35:01.180 Like, the way a

01:35:02.780 person is going to

01:35:03.660 reveal themselves

01:35:04.360 to you is very

01:35:05.860 radically dependent

01:35:06.960 on your aim in

01:35:08.880 the interaction.

01:35:10.060 And this is true

01:35:10.800 even for very bad

01:35:12.100 people.

01:35:12.480 Like, I've had some

01:35:13.180 people in my

01:35:13.780 clinical practice who

01:35:14.700 were, they were

01:35:15.760 terrifying people.

01:35:17.240 And you had to

01:35:18.320 step very carefully

01:35:19.180 around them.

01:35:20.020 But it was

01:35:21.540 possible to do

01:35:22.700 that.

01:35:22.980 Not always.

01:35:24.280 I'm not going to

01:35:25.100 get, like, wildly

01:35:25.820 over-optimistic about

01:35:26.860 that, but it was

01:35:27.600 dependent to some

01:35:28.460 degree on my

01:35:29.860 skill in specifying

01:35:32.160 my aim.

01:35:33.380 You know, like, I

01:35:34.100 would say the more

01:35:34.760 dangerous the person,

01:35:35.980 the better targeted

01:35:36.840 your aim bloody well

01:35:37.800 better be when you're

01:35:38.640 dealing with them or

01:35:39.360 look the hell out.

01:35:40.760 Right?

01:35:41.020 They're very, a

01:35:42.940 particularly dangerous

01:35:43.940 person is likely to

01:35:45.820 respond very

01:35:46.580 violently, very

01:35:47.580 violently to even

01:35:48.680 minor moral errors

01:35:49.720 on your part.

01:35:51.060 That's for sure when

01:35:52.040 you're dealing with

01:35:52.680 them.

01:35:53.400 But it is, it is an

01:35:55.360 unspecified question.

01:35:58.700 The degree to which

01:36:00.280 reality reveals itself

01:36:02.300 in accordance with

01:36:03.100 our aim is a very,

01:36:04.060 is a very much

01:36:04.840 unspecified question.

01:36:06.260 I think the

01:36:06.820 relationship is far

01:36:07.700 deeper than we dare

01:36:09.100 to imagine.

01:36:10.760 I come to think for

01:36:11.860 some reason this

01:36:12.580 may be a wild

01:36:15.020 tangent to say.

01:36:16.360 The first time I was

01:36:17.220 in New York, city of

01:36:18.700 New York, many

01:36:19.700 years ago, as a

01:36:20.560 European, you know,

01:36:21.440 as a naive European,

01:36:23.880 I was, I was

01:36:25.800 worried.

01:36:26.580 It was back in the

01:36:28.040 80s.

01:36:28.540 I was worried that

01:36:30.040 the crime and I

01:36:31.800 would get into

01:36:33.800 trouble at all times.

01:36:35.320 And I met another

01:36:36.980 Danish guy in New York

01:36:38.100 and I asked him,

01:36:38.740 well, what do I do?

01:36:39.840 You live in this

01:36:40.620 neighborhood that's

01:36:41.540 known for high crime

01:36:43.240 rate.

01:36:43.940 When I come to visit

01:36:45.000 you, how do I do

01:36:46.620 that without getting,

01:36:47.500 you know, knocked

01:36:48.160 over?

01:36:49.320 And he said, it's

01:36:50.080 very simple.

01:36:51.560 Just look as if you

01:36:53.360 just appear to other

01:36:54.840 people as if you have

01:36:56.160 a purpose with what

01:36:57.380 you're doing.

01:36:58.400 Right, right, right.

01:36:59.240 Yeah.

01:36:59.540 You want to go

01:37:00.100 somewhere and

01:37:01.260 therefore you go

01:37:01.820 through the street

01:37:02.540 because you want to

01:37:03.160 go down and visit me

01:37:04.300 and they won't, they

01:37:05.720 won't touch you.

01:37:06.900 But the moment you

01:37:07.940 come in and you say,

01:37:08.800 I'm an interested

01:37:09.560 tourist and I would

01:37:10.640 like to see people

01:37:11.540 live in a poor life

01:37:13.080 and New York is all

01:37:15.160 crime and I want to

01:37:16.040 see that.

01:37:17.320 Yeah.

01:37:17.660 Then you're a prey

01:37:18.760 animal.

01:37:20.140 Yeah.

01:37:21.040 And yeah, but also

01:37:22.540 you are intruding in

01:37:23.900 the world.

01:37:24.800 Yeah, right, right.

01:37:26.060 Yeah, yeah,

01:37:27.240 absolutely.

01:37:28.120 Well, when you have

01:37:29.240 when you have your

01:37:30.260 I want to go there

01:37:31.560 because I have a

01:37:33.880 friend to visit

01:37:34.600 and that's my aim.

01:37:37.200 That's my target.

01:37:38.140 That's what I'm doing.

01:37:39.540 Then you're not

01:37:41.000 annoying them

01:37:41.720 because you're

01:37:42.960 you're doing something.

01:37:44.120 And I think that

01:37:45.340 in interaction with

01:37:47.660 people who have

01:37:48.380 who are in trouble

01:37:49.660 who have difficulties

01:37:50.720 in life

01:37:51.440 it's important

01:37:54.120 to

01:37:54.440 that yourself

01:37:57.160 you show

01:37:58.320 that there's

01:37:59.320 something I want

01:38:00.120 to do with my life.

01:38:01.280 I'm interested in stuff.

01:38:03.560 I'm also interested

01:38:04.380 in you.

01:38:05.660 Not because of

01:38:06.780 I want to

01:38:08.960 sneeze on your life

01:38:10.240 or something

01:38:10.600 but I'm just

01:38:11.620 I'm open to you

01:38:12.900 but I'm going this way.

01:38:14.960 And I think

01:38:15.360 that's

01:38:15.840 it's

01:38:17.540 it's

01:38:18.200 it's an anecdote

01:38:19.240 to illustrate

01:38:20.240 what you're saying

01:38:21.500 actually.

01:38:21.960 Yeah, yeah.

01:38:23.480 Well look sir

01:38:24.260 we're at our 93 minute mark

01:38:26.160 so that's pretty good.

01:38:27.100 That's actually

01:38:27.600 a pretty good place

01:38:28.320 to end too

01:38:28.960 and so

01:38:29.460 I just

01:38:31.100 I'll close this way

01:38:32.480 so

01:38:32.760 I have a list

01:38:33.780 of recommended books

01:38:34.740 online

01:38:35.260 it's 100 of them

01:38:36.380 and they're books

01:38:37.300 that were

01:38:38.020 you know

01:38:38.400 had a market

01:38:39.080 influence on me

01:38:40.240 and I picked the books

01:38:40.920 very carefully

01:38:41.500 and yours is one of them

01:38:42.580 that user illusion

01:38:43.980 I think that's the best book

01:38:45.180 that is the best book

01:38:46.060 on consciousness

01:38:46.640 I ever read

01:38:47.460 and I read a lot of them

01:38:49.240 so I would recommend

01:38:50.380 that book to anybody

01:38:51.240 who's watching and listening

01:38:52.300 it's

01:38:52.700 it's

01:38:53.000 it's quite the tour de force

01:38:54.220 I thought it was very

01:38:55.180 well grounded scientifically

01:38:56.500 it's very well written

01:38:57.520 it's very accessible

01:38:58.420 and

01:38:59.360 it really helped me

01:39:01.200 think through

01:39:01.960 the relationship

01:39:02.960 between

01:39:03.640 compression

01:39:04.880 and focus

01:39:06.340 and reduction

01:39:07.320 and consciousness

01:39:08.100 and that was useful

01:39:09.040 I'd already been interested

01:39:10.120 in Huxley's idea

01:39:11.240 you know

01:39:11.540 of the reducing valve

01:39:12.680 with

01:39:14.860 you know

01:39:15.560 as a function

01:39:16.780 of consciousness

01:39:17.440 trying to think

01:39:18.080 that through

01:39:19.200 but you elaborated

01:39:20.680 on that

01:39:21.100 made it clear

01:39:21.700 in a way

01:39:22.000 that I haven't actually

01:39:23.320 seen anyone else do

01:39:24.340 now you know

01:39:25.260 Friston's work

01:39:25.980 and so forth

01:39:26.560 is a nice elaboration

01:39:27.640 of that

01:39:27.960 and I think the same

01:39:28.780 about Gibson

01:39:29.420 but

01:39:29.780 but

01:39:30.560 your book

01:39:31.760 pulled in the linguistic

01:39:33.220 in a way that I thought

01:39:34.160 was extremely original

01:39:35.240 and useful

01:39:35.820 so

01:39:36.280 so for everybody

01:39:37.320 who's watching

01:39:37.960 and listening

01:39:38.440 the user illusion

01:39:39.380 that's a book

01:39:39.920 I'd highly recommend

01:39:40.720 it

01:39:41.000 it's got a lot

01:39:41.740 to teach you

01:39:42.260 and it's deeper

01:39:42.820 than you might think

01:39:43.660 too

01:39:43.840 because it's an elegant book

01:39:45.040 and it's

01:39:45.700 clearly written

01:39:46.360 and

01:39:46.700 it's

01:39:47.580 so its depth

01:39:48.300 is somewhat

01:39:48.960 hidden

01:39:50.560 which is

01:39:51.480 also the mark

01:39:52.620 of a master author

01:39:54.060 right

01:39:54.880 so

01:39:55.740 yeah

01:39:56.640 and I had a blast

01:39:57.960 talking to you today

01:39:58.740 we went all sorts

01:39:59.820 of interesting places

01:40:00.740 so I'd like to thank you

01:40:03.000 for that

01:40:03.380 for everybody watching

01:40:04.700 and listening

01:40:05.180 I'd like to thank you guys

01:40:06.360 for your time

01:40:06.940 and attention

01:40:07.420 and as always

01:40:08.540 and I'm going to

01:40:09.800 continue to talk

01:40:11.060 to Tor Nortranders

01:40:11.980 on the Daily Wire

01:40:13.060 side of things

01:40:13.660 I'm going to walk

01:40:14.320 through his life

01:40:14.860 in a bit more detail

01:40:15.780 he's written a lot of books

01:40:17.580 we only focused

01:40:18.860 on one really

01:40:19.740 and made reference

01:40:21.140 to some of the others

01:40:21.900 but we'll flesh that

01:40:23.280 out a little bit

01:40:23.920 and see where else

01:40:25.220 we can

01:40:25.660 we can

01:40:26.760 get

01:40:27.680 and so if you want

01:40:28.720 to join us

01:40:29.220 on that

01:40:29.840 venture

01:40:30.760 please feel free

01:40:32.080 to the film crew

01:40:33.420 here

01:40:33.720 in Toronto

01:40:34.720 today

01:40:35.100 thank you very much

01:40:36.020 for your time

01:40:36.660 and your help

01:40:37.600 and for how smoothly

01:40:39.240 it went

01:40:39.660 and to the Daily Wire

01:40:40.460 people who put this

01:40:41.480 together

01:40:41.780 and make it free

01:40:42.460 for everyone

01:40:42.980 which is

01:40:43.500 you know

01:40:43.860 pretty good deal

01:40:44.740 for everybody

01:40:45.280 as far as I'm concerned

01:40:46.220 they deserve

01:40:47.320 continual thanks

01:40:48.140 for that

01:40:48.540 and to you

01:40:49.600 thank you very much

01:40:50.640 for spending 90 minutes

01:40:52.500 with us

01:40:52.960 and letting us know

01:40:54.420 sharing the fruits

01:40:55.740 of your thought

01:40:56.400 thank you for having me

01:40:59.220 that was a great

01:41:00.160 great fun

01:41:01.200 all right sir

01:41:03.560 thank you very much

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - April 18, 2024

441. Dreams, Stories, Psychedelics & Consciousness ｜ Tor Nørretranders

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