The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 444. The Collective Unconscious, Christ, and the Covenant

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00:00:57.420 Hey everybody.

00:01:10.120 I've got a chance today to continue my ongoing conversation with Russell Brand.

00:01:16.260 I want to talk to him today about the collective unconscious and about what it is, because I think we now understand what it is.

00:01:22.700 I'm talking to him about sacrifice as the basis of community, about the distinction between authority and power and logos and power, about the danger of the use of power, about the necessity of the story, about how all that's played out in his own life,

00:01:42.800 about how all that's played out in his own life, about how all that's played out in his own life, about the proclivity of the modern self to identify itself with its whims and desires and passions,

00:01:51.480 and the inevitability that that identification turns into something that closely approximates worship.

00:01:58.200 The idea that something has to supplant that for maturation to take place and for society itself to stabilize and remain productive and abundant.

00:02:10.820 We talk about the call to adventure as a variant of the establishment of relationship with God.

00:02:21.380 We talk about the burden that Christ left on his followers in the aftermath of his death, all of that.

00:02:28.800 So, if that's what, what would you say?

00:02:33.560 Wind your clock.

00:02:34.820 Well, this is the discussion for you.

00:02:36.660 So, good to see you, Russell.

00:02:40.420 Thanks for agreeing to talk to me today.

00:02:43.020 It is a great joy to be in your company.

00:02:44.640 Thank you for having me.

00:02:46.980 So, I want to run some ideas by you, and I want you to tell me how they echo for you personally and also philosophically.

00:02:55.940 So, I think I've figured out what the collective unconscious is.

00:03:01.200 So, I want to run that by you.

00:03:02.920 Well, I've been thinking about these large language models a lot and about what they do because they can obviously mimic human thought at the verbal level quite, quite spectacularly.

00:03:15.280 Now, of course, the woke ideologues have done everything they could to muck them up spectacularly right from the beginning, and we're going to pay a big price for that.

00:03:25.240 But there's still something there that's very, very telling about how we think.

00:03:31.280 So, let me lay out the idea, and you tell me what you think about it.

00:03:34.640 So, what these models do is map the statistical relationship between, you might say, markers.

00:03:47.780 And so, imagine that you can tell the difference between a word like, imagine a word B-I-N-T, which isn't a word, but it's kind of a plausible non-word.

00:04:01.740 And it's a plausible non-word because the statistical relationship between the letters mimics the likely statistical relationship between letters in a real English word.

00:04:13.220 So, it's much more of a word than Q-N-Z-T.

00:04:17.280 Okay, so now, there are statistical regularities between letters that enable us to identify words.

00:04:25.100 And then there are statistical regularities between words in phrases that make sense.

00:04:31.980 And then there are statistical regularities between phrases in sentences and sentences in relationship to one another.

00:04:40.300 And then, say, within paragraphs.

00:04:42.420 And then paragraphs in relationship to one another.

00:04:45.920 And the large language models are trained to map all that.

00:04:50.180 So, what that implies, obviously, is something like, any given idea is statistically likely to exist in relationship to a certain set of other ideas and not distal ideas.

00:05:07.200 And so, if I throw an idea at you, I'm also throwing a network of associated co-ideas at you at the same time.

00:05:16.480 And then out farther in the penumbra are even more distantly associated ideas.

00:05:22.700 And more creative people are going to be able to leap from the center to the distal ideas.

00:05:27.140 We already know that from studying creativity.

00:05:29.740 So, the large language models map the statistical association between sets of ideas.

00:05:36.660 That's a good way of thinking about it.

00:05:38.940 You can imagine the same thing happens with images.

00:05:42.740 So, if you bring to mind the image of a witch, you're much more likely to bring to mind the image of a cauldron and a black cat, for example.

00:05:50.820 Maybe a spider.

00:05:51.880 Maybe a pumpkin.

00:05:53.880 So, the collective unconscious would be, take a given culture.

00:05:59.000 The collective unconscious would be the statistical association between ideas insofar as that culture has represented the ideas.

00:06:10.100 And that's mappable mathematically.

00:06:12.200 And so, a symbol would be something like a set of, it's a set of statistically associated concepts, right?

00:06:23.840 Especially image-laden concepts in particular with regards to symbol.

00:06:29.080 So, it's a weight.

00:06:31.420 What the collective unconscious seems to be is the system of weights between concepts through which we see the world.

00:06:41.720 So, and that makes it a real thing.

00:06:44.140 It makes symbols real.

00:06:45.600 Because a symbol is a network of ideas with a core idea at the center.

00:06:51.640 So, yes.

00:06:53.940 How beautiful.

00:06:54.500 Firstly, I wonder, some of the areas we might, at least, it seems to me, that I ought address as occurring are the difference between signifiers that are, of course,

00:07:11.760 according to post-structuralist and to much of the work done within semiotics, arbitrary and potentially universal, natural, or at least practical symbols.

00:07:28.020 I wonder, for example, about the idea that, is it a type of language that a barn full of chicks will respond to the silhouette of a bird when it travels above their heads on a wire in one direction?

00:07:46.660 Because when traveling from north to south, the silhouette resembles that of a hawk.

00:07:51.760 But when it travels back along the same trajectory, but in reverse, they do not respond because it no longer resembles the silhouette of a hawk.

00:07:59.700 A hawk does not travel in that formation.

00:08:02.880 That is a type of language.

00:08:05.120 There is language within nature.

00:08:09.540 This is the first thought.

00:08:11.060 So, you're referring to something.

00:08:12.540 Yeah, okay.

00:08:13.260 So, that adds an additional dimension to the model.

00:08:18.880 So, then you might say that there are co-occurring patterns of regularity with biological significance that exist in some real sense outside the merely conceptual.

00:08:34.540 And those are probably marked in the fundamental analysis by death, right?

00:08:40.060 Because one of the other things I've been thinking about is that people ask me questions like, you know, do you think God is real?

00:08:49.080 And a question like that always begs the question for me.

00:08:52.940 It's like, well, what the hell do you mean real?

00:08:55.240 Like, what makes something real?

00:08:57.620 And, you know, you could say tangibility, although that's only one dimension of what makes something real.

00:09:04.160 It's like, I think what makes things real in the final analysis is probably death.

00:09:09.660 And in the example you used of the silhouette, which is a very famous example with regard to birds, the silhouette traveling in one direction, that signifies death reliably, right?

00:09:23.760 Over a very long span of evolutionary history.

00:09:26.500 And any creature that didn't respond to that silhouette was at a much higher probability of being picked off.

00:09:34.660 So, then one of the things you might note, and this is where the postmodernists got things, like, dreadfully wrong, and where the large language models have drifted into insanity.

00:09:44.880 So, imagine that there's a statistical relationship between concepts that's, okay.

00:09:50.080 So, then you might say, well, what gives that statistical relationship reality?

00:09:56.220 And the postmodern types would say, well, it's just arbitrary cultural construction.

00:10:01.000 But it's not, because there are patterns of relationships between events that are part and parcel of the world per se.

00:10:12.160 And some of those need to be accurately mapped by the conceptual system, or you die.

00:10:21.380 And so, I would say the ideas that ring most true to us, that grip us in this sort of archetypal way, are ideas that bear directly on our survival, whether we recognize it or not.

00:10:36.540 They strike a chord within us.

00:10:39.400 Here's a good example.

00:10:40.640 We'll shift sideways for a minute.

00:10:43.820 I've started to understand why.

00:10:46.740 So, I'm on a tour right now, We Who Wrestle With God, and it's focusing on biblical stories.

00:10:51.900 I'm trying to explain.

00:10:53.760 I'm trying to understand what they mean and then talk about that so other people can understand insofar as I'm able to.

00:11:01.500 And one of the striking meta-themes of the biblical library is the necessity of sacrifice, right?

00:11:12.360 And so, I've been trying to understand, first of all, what it means to sacrifice.

00:11:18.100 It means to give up something that's desirable for something that's more desirable.

00:11:27.160 It's something like that.

00:11:28.540 It's something higher.

00:11:30.540 And it's higher because it extends over a longer period of time, and it includes more people.

00:11:39.940 And so, like, sacrifice is the basis of community.

00:11:45.660 Well, why?

00:11:46.760 Well, it's obvious, Russell, as far as I can tell.

00:11:49.340 It's like if you're in a communal relationship, which is any relationship, obviously,

00:11:55.740 then you're giving something up that's immediate to you to establish and maintain the relationship, right?

00:12:06.560 So, it's a sacrificial gesture.

00:12:08.220 And once you understand that, once you understand that sacrifice is at the basis of community,

00:12:15.000 the question immediately arises, which is, well, what's the most effective form of sacrifice?

00:12:20.900 And this biblical story, Old and New Testament together, is actually an examination of sacrifice per se.

00:12:30.060 It's an attempt to spiral down to the core of what constitutes, well, you might say the sacrifice that's maximally effective,

00:12:39.140 maximally acceptable to God.

00:12:41.380 But it's something like what sacrifice is by necessity at the core of community.

00:12:46.660 I also don't think there's any difference between that and cortical maturation.

00:12:50.900 By the way, I think they're identical concepts because as you mature from, you know, hedonistic, power-mad two-year-old,

00:13:00.620 what happens is that you integrate modes of attention and action that facilitate your longer-term survival,

00:13:10.660 but also your inclusion within more and more complex webs of social community.

00:13:16.640 That's all sacrificial.

00:13:18.140 Good God.

00:13:21.140 Now, there's a lot of Jordan Peterson 101.

00:13:23.960 There's a lot of hits running simultaneously here, JP, because we've already touched on the idea of chaos

00:13:29.120 and the necessary inevitable emergence of patterns within chaos.

00:13:33.700 And it seems that you are positing to a degree that this chaos is analogous to perhaps the collective unconscious and some of the patterns that are emerging in AI models,

00:13:44.800 even with the biases evident within them, are an indicator of how these patterns emerge within a container.

00:13:52.900 And I suppose to say a container is to indicate that we are acknowledging an absolute.

00:13:59.020 We've moved from this idea of a collective unconscious and patterns emerging within chaos into sacrifice,

00:14:06.240 which is obviously another great Jordan Peterson theme.

00:14:09.580 And as you say, perhaps the overarching theme of the Bible,

00:14:13.700 my contribution to this incredible amount of information that you are relaying,

00:14:18.700 it has to do with where might one's intention carry you?

00:14:26.340 In so much as it seems that in this process of maturation and a personal relationship with sacrifice,

00:14:34.400 how that develops and evolves, it seems to me, is when one starts to acknowledge that there is not,

00:14:42.180 when you use the phrase immediately beneficial, that when we're referring to immediacy,

00:14:46.800 we are talking about both spatial and temporal immediacy.

00:14:51.360 And we might have to consider that when dealing with the sublime, as surely the Bible is,

00:14:57.980 that even these categories are called into question.

00:15:02.360 The most basic and taken for granted categories of any temporal creature will have to be challenged.

00:15:10.900 This perhaps helps me to understand how the ultimate sacrifice as rendered in the New Testament

00:15:16.620 and most, I suppose, would regard as the defining Christian image,

00:15:21.520 the image of sacrifice can tackle the complex idea of the pact that is made by the sacrifice of the man-God.

00:15:34.000 Because as I explore and attempt to understand Christianity more deeply,

00:15:41.480 the nature of the triumvirate, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

00:15:46.120 and the nature of this pact is something that I'm mulling over,

00:15:49.020 and I feel that the reason I can't reach resolution is because it's irresoluble.

00:15:53.420 Because I ask that when there is absolute dominion and omnipotence,

00:16:00.320 with whom might a pact be made?

00:16:02.960 And I'm starting to conclude that it must be a kind of Cohen,

00:16:07.720 that all is coming from the same source.

00:16:11.720 Okay. Yep, yep, yep.

00:16:14.040 Because otherwise how could there be a pact?

00:16:15.300 Well, I can tell you a story about that and you tell me what you think about it.

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00:17:56.680 That's a very good question, because the thing you're pointing to, too, which is definitely the case,

00:18:06.000 that the nature of the relationship between man and God in the biblical stories is covenantal.

00:18:18.600 It's contractual, and it's relational, right?

00:18:22.200 So there's an insistence that it's all of those.

00:18:24.640 It's like the relationship you have with a being, even though it says explicitly in the biblical stories,

00:18:32.440 in the background, so to speak, that God is beyond all categories of being and non-being.

00:18:37.140 But on top of that is overlaid the insistence that, well, insofar as you're concerned,

00:18:44.360 it's still going to be a relationship with something that's a being, or that's the essence of being itself.

00:18:50.620 Okay, so why relationship?

00:18:52.840 Well, there's two questions.

00:18:55.620 Why relationship and why contract?

00:18:57.380 Okay, well, let's think about work, first of all, and what it means to work.

00:19:05.020 Obviously, work is a sacrificial enterprise, because when people say they're working,

00:19:11.460 what they mean is they're giving up what they or something within them would rather have happen right now

00:19:19.020 if they had their druthers for some longer-term investment, right?

00:19:24.640 So then the question is, well, investment in what?

00:19:28.420 Contract with what?

00:19:30.600 And you could say, well, it's a contract with the community.

00:19:35.660 That's what money is.

00:19:37.280 If I put in time and effort, then I'll get something that I can redeem in the future for some specified value.

00:19:47.280 But then that community that you're contracting with is a community that's predicated on a certain ethic,

00:19:56.520 because otherwise the contract wouldn't stand.

00:20:00.840 Like if the deal was, well, I can work and I can store something up of value,

00:20:05.120 and then some ravaging mob can just come and take it,

00:20:08.960 well, that's going to take the spirit out of my work pretty damn quickly.

00:20:13.880 You know, and that was probably the fate of most people who ever stored anything of value

00:20:19.380 prior to the emergence of something like a complex sacrificial civilization,

00:20:24.960 where envy, for example, was regarded as off the table.

00:20:28.660 You couldn't just take something that someone had because you wanted it.

00:20:32.320 And so the notion of work itself is the notion of a contract with the future.

00:20:41.740 But the viability of that contract depends on an underlying ethos.

00:20:46.840 Okay, so now let me tell you a story about how that contract might be conceptualized.

00:20:55.580 Can you tell me what you think about this?

00:20:57.440 So, I've been studying the story of Abraham.

00:21:02.760 He starts out as Abram, by the way, A-B-R-A-M.

00:21:06.740 So he has a different name, which is actually relevant as the story progresses.

00:21:11.680 So, Abram has privilege in modern parlance.

00:21:16.160 He's got rich parents, and everything he needs, everything he needs is right at hand for him.

00:21:25.080 I mean, it begs the question, of course, what is it that you actually need?

00:21:32.240 But what Abram has is kind of like the, he's either got, he's got the materialist paradise at hand.

00:21:39.980 There's nothing that he doesn't have at hand whose absence would cause privation.

00:21:46.040 So, I would say he's a fully satiated infant.

00:21:52.820 And you can think about that as a notion of utopia.

00:21:56.140 It's the notion of utopia that Dostoevsky criticized, by the way.

00:22:00.060 And what happens to Abram, he's like 75.

00:22:02.400 And the Spirit of God comes to him.

00:22:07.200 That's how the story lays itself out and says, look, buddy, you've got to get the hell out of your zone of comfort.

00:22:14.400 You have to leave your father's tent.

00:22:17.340 You have to leave your people.

00:22:19.220 You have to leave everything that's made you comfortable.

00:22:21.680 And you have to journey out into the world.

00:22:24.500 And Abram agrees to this deal.

00:22:29.260 Okay, so as soon as he agrees that he's going to forego his infantile comfort, even though he's like 70 by this time.

00:22:37.260 So, he's a bit of a late bloomer.

00:22:40.300 God offers him a deal.

00:22:42.260 This is the covenant.

00:22:43.920 And so, I think it's a description of the consequences of the full manifestation of the spirit of adventure.

00:22:51.900 So, imagine that there's a spirit within you that calls you to a more profound level of development.

00:22:59.960 It's the spirit that you would encourage if you had any sense, if you had in your children, if you had children.

00:23:07.880 You're launching them into the world.

00:23:10.500 You're saying, follow the spirit of adventure.

00:23:13.220 Okay, so God offers Abraham a deal.

00:23:15.280 He says, if you do this, and you make the necessary sacrifices, then you'll live a life that will be a blessing to you.

00:23:26.200 That will happen in a manner that will redound to your reputation.

00:23:30.460 So, you'll become known, but in a way that, in the right way to become known.

00:23:36.480 You'll become influential and admirable in the proper manner as a consequence of undertaking the adventure.

00:23:44.100 You'll do that in a way that will establish something permanent.

00:23:48.400 So, that's a dynasty with innumerable descendants because of the pattern that you're establishing.

00:23:55.280 And you'll do all of those, all of that, in a way that's maximally beneficial to everyone else.

00:24:01.860 So, the case is being made in that story that there's no difference between the direction that the spirit of adventure orients you

00:24:10.920 and the provision of plenty psychologically, socially, and over the longest possible span of time.

00:24:20.540 And that's the covenant.

00:24:23.020 And so, the notion would be that, and this is what is portrayed to Abraham,

00:24:30.420 is that there's no better possible way of conducting yourself, psychologically or socially, all things considered,

00:24:39.600 while in this story, then following this voice that calls you out into the world.

00:24:43.220 Now, when Abraham does go into the world, all hell breaks loose, right?

00:24:47.040 He encounters famine and tyranny and war, and that calls on him to become increasingly more than he is.

00:24:58.180 Every time he has a new field of adventure that reveals itself in front of him, he's called upon to make a sacrifice.

00:25:06.280 He has to change.

00:25:08.320 He has to let go.

00:25:09.480 He has to abandon the parts of him that are no longer appropriate to the new situation.

00:25:15.900 And he does that intensely, so intensely, that he is eventually rewarded with a new name, which is Abraham, instead of Abram.

00:25:25.560 He becomes a new person.

00:25:27.840 It's a good way of thinking about it.

00:25:29.880 So, and then, well, obviously, Abraham is called upon to make an ultimate sacrifice, which is the sacrifice of his son, Isaac.

00:25:38.280 And that's part and parcel of the notion that everything that you have is to be offered up to the thing that's highest that pulls you forward.

00:25:50.200 It's something, and that's what God is.

00:25:52.120 That's part and parcel of the story.

00:25:54.680 It's a definition of what's to be put in the highest place.

00:25:58.540 That's a contract.

00:25:59.420 I like the mirroring of Abraham's sacrifice in the Old Testament and the sacrifice of Christ as the apex event in the New Testament, that there is an inversion of that principle.

00:26:16.020 I enjoy, too, the idea that the endowment of spirit and the spirit of adventure is the maximal principle of a great father.

00:26:26.700 I enjoy this idea very much as well.

00:26:29.000 And I was wondering, Jordan, whilst you were speaking about the values that that may entail,

00:26:37.700 because a little earlier when you were talking about money being sort of one of the establishing principles for community and the way that values can be maintained and community can be maintained,

00:26:50.920 and you said it's an expression of ethos and a demonstration of ethos.

00:26:55.100 I feel like one of the contemporary arguments that rages that you often find yourself significantly and visibly placed on one side of is the idea that this ethos and these values have become co-opted over time.

00:27:10.440 Now, I know you often talk about how sort of the conservatism versus progressivism is a necessary cultural tension.

00:27:18.880 And you know that many of your detractors and opponents would easily and definitively use the phrase word patriarchy to describe some of these relationships and what they have culturally endowed

00:27:33.040 and what perhaps they would argue we as men are oblivious to some of the components that are packed into that.

00:27:41.400 What I've come to query is the impossibility of perhaps the equality that it is stated they crave within that framing,

00:27:53.060 i.e. that something that comes from this, forgive the literalism, genesis would always have to be expressed in this manner.

00:28:00.500 And to create a paradigm that represented a true expression of the divine feminine, it would have to be a different paradigm altogether.

00:28:08.180 This is interesting to me, bearing in mind what you've said earlier about AI being a sort of a conglomerate,

00:28:14.560 an aggregation that could be mapped onto our understanding of a collective unconscious,

00:28:20.200 i.e. archetypes emerge out of patterns observed over time.

00:28:24.880 But what fascinates me also, because I feel it might be practical,

00:28:28.520 for surely as a theology evolves from the Old Testament into the New Testament,

00:28:36.240 is there a sense, without yielding what territory might be inferred to Islam here,

00:28:42.880 if we were to continue the trajectory to the insisted final prophet,

00:28:47.860 that what we are offered in Acts, for example, in the immediate era after Christ's death and resurrection,

00:28:58.420 is that the kind of divinity endowed by the second covenant,

00:29:04.200 God's reversal, inversion and return on Abraham's sacrifice,

00:29:09.220 might become not ubiquitous, but at least accessible, accessible to many.

00:29:17.120 That we will perform greater feats than he,

00:29:20.200 that you, my apostles, will perform greater feats,

00:29:23.320 that as he has sent me as his apostle, I send you as my apostles.

00:29:27.260 I read Acts again recently in some easy, accessible, almost slang version of it.

00:29:32.060 In fact, a man who shares your surname, Eugene Peterson's book, The Message.

00:29:37.080 And what I was struck by in this version of Acts was the vivacity,

00:29:43.340 the lividness and vitality of the book,

00:29:48.100 and how the sense of urgency of Christianity,

00:29:51.860 that it, you know, think of the critiques that are often slung in your direction.

00:29:57.340 Conservatism, it's stayed, like, you know, this is a very sort of,

00:30:00.500 and admittedly it's 2,000 years old,

00:30:02.440 but a very sort of a vibrant call to arms,

00:30:05.380 an urgent sense that, oh my God,

00:30:07.700 we are living in an atrophying and dying ideology.

00:30:12.380 We must become alive with Christ.

00:30:14.560 We must change the world.

00:30:15.700 And even the accounts that are given in there are accounts of people jailed and on trial,

00:30:21.980 that even though it is literally biblical,

00:30:25.000 they're not, it's very distinct from the Old Testament with its locusts,

00:30:28.680 and its deserts, and its tribes, and its manna.

00:30:31.640 Now it sort of feels overtly and literally political.

00:30:36.540 So what I'm saying is, is that somehow, like, between these two sets of books,

00:30:42.940 and I don't know how arbitrary that taxonomy is,

00:30:45.640 even, Jordan, obviously it must be an area of your expertise by now,

00:30:49.480 having sort of watched the incredible content you've generated around it.

00:30:53.460 What, is there been, has there been a significant reversal of charge?

00:30:57.500 And what is that charge?

00:30:59.400 What, how do, how are we endowed with that charge now?

00:31:02.500 At the point when you have Richard Dawkins saying,

00:31:06.200 I am culturally Christian,

00:31:08.560 are people starting to recognise that there is,

00:31:12.780 like, that this is not just a remnant ideology,

00:31:17.760 this is a living thing that has been discarded.

00:31:21.040 I listened to that Bishop Barron who you had on your show the other day,

00:31:24.360 talking about ethereal angels,

00:31:26.900 and I thought, yes, the religion that I am interested in

00:31:30.360 is not a precursor and a parallel to psychotherapy.

00:31:36.680 It is a precursor and parallel to quantum physics,

00:31:41.660 helping me to understand, what do you mean when you say self?

00:31:45.500 Who is this self?

00:31:46.600 What do you mean when you say reality?

00:31:49.200 When you say reality, what are you talking about?

00:31:52.600 And is it possible that reality is something that we conjure,

00:31:56.320 here, as vessels and conduits of the divine,

00:32:00.000 if we have the capacity to somehow,

00:32:02.880 in the moment through practice,

00:32:04.620 disavow the strong gravitational,

00:32:08.080 literally, pull of the material,

00:32:10.740 and the unconscious ethos

00:32:12.620 with which we are continually inculcated

00:32:15.760 by the insidious, nihilistic,

00:32:19.400 albeit glistening,

00:32:21.620 culture that attempts to make us all

00:32:25.740 devotees of this new banality.

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00:33:36.080 Well, when Moses disappears

00:33:44.080 to go find the,

00:33:46.400 to be given the Ten Commandments,

00:33:50.120 he leaves his political arm behind,

00:33:53.280 right, Aaron.

00:33:55.080 So there's two forces that lead the lost

00:33:58.340 across the desert.

00:34:00.120 There's the prophetic and the political,

00:34:02.120 and Aaron is the political,

00:34:03.260 and in that part of the story,

00:34:05.460 the prophetic disappears,

00:34:06.980 and the political falls under the sway

00:34:11.540 of something like the immediacy of hedonism.

00:34:15.140 So the Israelites immediately turn to worship

00:34:18.420 of the golden calf,

00:34:19.720 and it's something like money.

00:34:21.320 So a calf is obviously,

00:34:24.720 a calf is in the class of livestock,

00:34:30.540 and livestock is bodies at hand to consume.

00:34:35.020 It's a form of wealth, obviously.

00:34:38.700 And golden calf is the first level representation

00:34:44.120 of that abstractly, you might say.

00:34:46.520 It's halfway to money, a golden calf,

00:34:49.520 but it's still materialistic.

00:34:50.320 Materialistic.

00:34:51.100 Now, when the Israelites start to worship

00:34:54.000 the golden calf and become materialistic,

00:34:57.260 they become concerned with immediate hedonistic

00:35:01.680 self-gratification, okay?

00:35:04.340 And so then, and it isn't only that

00:35:06.400 they're worshiping the golden calf.

00:35:08.060 They're dancing around naked, drunk.

00:35:10.860 It's a pride parade.

00:35:12.440 I mean, and I'm dead serious about that.

00:35:14.300 I'm dead serious about that,

00:35:16.560 is the political descends into a pride parade

00:35:19.240 as soon as the prophetic disappears.

00:35:21.720 Well, why?

00:35:23.180 Well, because everyone falls under the sway

00:35:28.620 of their, of the dominion of their immature instincts.

00:35:32.820 You know, when someone says,

00:35:34.800 I want what I want right now,

00:35:38.400 what they're failing,

00:35:39.760 what they're failing to understand

00:35:41.220 is that they've come to a conclusion

00:35:45.020 about what constitutes I.

00:35:47.900 And the I that they're allowing to be constituted

00:35:51.160 is actually the dominion of their instincts.

00:35:54.600 They're reverting to a form of,

00:35:57.080 they're reverting to the same sort of behavior

00:35:59.240 that characterizes Abraham

00:36:00.520 before his adventure takes place.

00:36:03.480 It's, it's, it's mere hedonic

00:36:06.040 immediate gratification.

00:36:09.000 Now, you might say, if you were progressive,

00:36:11.180 it's like, well, what's wrong with that?

00:36:13.500 And the answer is, well,

00:36:15.400 why don't you put 42 year olds

00:36:17.660 out in the forest

00:36:19.040 and see how long they last?

00:36:22.060 And the answer is not very long.

00:36:24.220 And the reason for that is because

00:36:25.720 there's nothing in that realm

00:36:27.760 of instinctual self-gratification

00:36:30.120 that's going to be able to propagate itself

00:36:33.300 communally over any reasonable amount of time.

00:36:37.960 I mean, that's why we have

00:36:39.480 communal organization,

00:36:41.500 why we make those sacrifices

00:36:42.980 is because as you mature,

00:36:44.640 you start to understand that

00:36:46.100 mere whim or mere desire,

00:36:50.060 first of all,

00:36:51.400 is a pretty narrow definition of who you are,

00:36:54.360 especially because it changes moment to moment,

00:36:57.140 just like gender, apparently.

00:37:00.120 Right, it's this shape-shifting.

00:37:04.740 It's actually,

00:37:05.960 it's actually an a prior decision

00:37:09.940 about what to worship.

00:37:11.340 Like, if you're a pagan, for example,

00:37:13.960 and you're polytheistic, for example,

00:37:16.680 all that it means is that

00:37:18.220 it doesn't mean you worship nothing.

00:37:20.900 It means that you,

00:37:22.000 you identify yourself

00:37:24.660 with your instinctual desires.

00:37:26.840 You define I

00:37:28.800 as whatever desire rules at the moment.

00:37:32.680 That's just a kind of possession,

00:37:34.740 and it's an immature possession,

00:37:36.500 and it can't work

00:37:37.660 because it,

00:37:39.560 there's nothing in it that's productive.

00:37:41.300 It's all mouth and need

00:37:43.380 and no action and sacrifice.

00:37:45.860 And so,

00:37:47.360 there's something wrong about it,

00:37:49.240 fundamentally wrong about it.

00:37:51.520 Something fundamental,

00:37:52.440 that's Peter,

00:37:53.100 that's the land of Peter Pan,

00:37:55.040 right?

00:37:55.500 The boy who won't grow up,

00:37:57.140 who thinks that

00:37:58.420 maturity is nothing but

00:38:00.200 like power and corruption.

00:38:02.900 That's represented by Captain Hook.

00:38:04.940 Now, to give the progressives their due,

00:38:08.240 to give the left its due,

00:38:10.880 of course,

00:38:11.700 that patriarchal

00:38:13.120 structure that is predicated on sacrifice

00:38:18.580 can become corrupted,

00:38:20.040 co-opted,

00:38:21.120 gigantic,

00:38:22.520 right?

00:38:22.900 Lumbering,

00:38:23.640 blind,

00:38:24.600 willfully blind.

00:38:26.080 It degenerates in the direction of power,

00:38:28.480 always.

00:38:29.580 So, this is a good rule of thumb.

00:38:31.060 You can think about this

00:38:31.900 in the confines of your marriage

00:38:33.200 or even your relationship with yourself,

00:38:35.740 right?

00:38:36.080 When the proper integrating spirit

00:38:38.200 isn't at hand

00:38:39.940 and operative,

00:38:41.220 then the relationship degenerates

00:38:43.320 in the direction of power.

00:38:44.900 You start to use compulsion.

00:38:46.340 You start to use force.

00:38:48.600 You know,

00:38:49.300 you exchange angry words

00:38:50.960 with your wife

00:38:51.700 and you attempt to force her

00:38:53.560 to adopt the point of view

00:38:54.740 that you think is appropriate.

00:38:56.380 But the fact that that happens continually

00:38:58.840 does not indicate that

00:39:00.420 that's the basis of the relationship.

00:39:03.200 The question,

00:39:03.880 right?

00:39:04.480 It's not,

00:39:05.200 is power the basis of the relationship?

00:39:07.200 Well,

00:39:07.340 the progressives obviously say yes.

00:39:09.340 They say there's nothing other than power.

00:39:11.260 That's what the bloody postmodernists

00:39:13.020 concluded in the 1970s.

00:39:16.620 And if it's not power,

00:39:18.140 what is it?

00:39:18.840 Well,

00:39:19.600 it's the spirit of voluntary self-sacrifice.

00:39:23.100 That's the antithesis of power.

00:39:25.140 That's clearly the antithesis of power.

00:39:28.320 And then you mentioned,

00:39:29.540 I'll just add one thing,

00:39:30.860 because you mentioned this call

00:39:33.080 that you saw in Acts,

00:39:34.880 which is Christ's insistence

00:39:36.580 that those he leaves behind

00:39:38.660 will do works greater than his.

00:39:40.540 This is also where I see

00:39:41.980 the insipid element

00:39:43.380 of Protestantism in particular,

00:39:45.560 although not only Protestantism,

00:39:47.200 that says,

00:39:48.120 well,

00:39:48.180 all you have to do is say,

00:39:49.640 Lord,

00:39:50.080 Lord,

00:39:50.400 and you'll be saved,

00:39:51.540 right?

00:39:51.820 All you have to do is claim belief

00:39:54.400 in the Christ

00:39:55.380 who's already redeemed us.

00:39:57.380 And then,

00:39:58.080 you know,

00:39:58.860 now you're in the kingdom of heaven.

00:40:00.880 And that isn't

00:40:02.120 what the biblical text indicates.

00:40:04.160 It indicates that

00:40:05.420 those who are left

00:40:06.780 in the aftermath

00:40:07.640 of the resurrection

00:40:08.740 will be called upon

00:40:09.880 to do greater things

00:40:10.920 than Christ himself,

00:40:12.000 which is a hell of a call

00:40:13.180 given the nature

00:40:14.700 of his sacrifice,

00:40:16.280 right?

00:40:16.560 This is no joke.

00:40:18.240 And what we're called upon

00:40:19.500 to do is to participate

00:40:20.720 in that process,

00:40:22.080 right?

00:40:23.220 Fully,

00:40:24.120 or else,

00:40:24.960 like,

00:40:25.600 and seriously or else.

00:40:27.760 And I can feel,

00:40:28.700 everybody can feel

00:40:29.500 that nipping at the edges,

00:40:31.000 including people

00:40:31.740 like Richard Dawkins.

00:40:34.720 I may say

00:40:35.800 that when you reach

00:40:37.160 immediately for pride

00:40:38.620 as your example

00:40:39.520 of hedonism,

00:40:40.640 you do yourself

00:40:41.460 no favors

00:40:42.100 in my humble opinion,

00:40:43.640 sir,

00:40:44.100 because you could

00:40:44.820 just as easily

00:40:45.680 use an example

00:40:47.780 of hedonism

00:40:49.520 and indulgence

00:40:50.640 that doesn't have

00:40:51.420 such overt

00:40:52.320 and explicit connotations

00:40:54.240 when it comes

00:40:54.900 to a particular

00:40:55.660 expression

00:40:56.580 of human sexuality.

00:40:58.460 That's just one point.

00:40:59.220 Let me go on for ages

00:41:00.000 if you don't mind.

00:41:01.900 Now,

00:41:02.980 I am aware,

00:41:04.120 of course,

00:41:05.100 of,

00:41:05.920 I've lived hedonistically.

00:41:07.380 I've been a drug addict.

00:41:08.700 I've lived indulgently

00:41:10.140 for long periods of time.

00:41:11.620 So I understand

00:41:12.480 the nature

00:41:13.540 of that power

00:41:14.620 and in practice

00:41:16.480 how it may

00:41:17.540 as well

00:41:18.120 be a god

00:41:18.900 and how you

00:41:19.960 conceptualize

00:41:21.080 that could be

00:41:22.480 pantheistically.

00:41:24.900 You could see

00:41:25.620 it as

00:41:26.280 Aphrodite

00:41:27.780 or as

00:41:28.600 Venus.

00:41:29.300 You could see

00:41:30.040 yourself as being

00:41:30.760 devoured

00:41:31.400 by Cupid

00:41:32.800 and certainly

00:41:33.640 by Eros

00:41:35.900 and making

00:41:37.420 yourself

00:41:37.920 the subject

00:41:38.940 of such

00:41:39.580 high humours.

00:41:41.680 Priapus,

00:41:42.520 man.

00:41:43.140 Priapus.

00:41:43.960 Priapus,

00:41:44.540 indeed.

00:41:45.380 Indeed.

00:41:46.220 Indeed.

00:41:47.340 But I saw

00:41:49.080 some things

00:41:49.840 in what you were saying

00:41:51.100 that struck me

00:41:52.280 as important.

00:41:53.440 That when you were

00:41:54.180 saying that,

00:41:54.960 of course,

00:41:55.500 when we

00:41:56.100 default to making

00:41:57.640 the self

00:41:58.260 our deity,

00:42:00.100 the sovereign

00:42:01.440 being that

00:42:02.340 which is

00:42:02.840 currently charged,

00:42:04.980 whichever instinct

00:42:05.960 is at the wheel,

00:42:07.380 whichever instinct

00:42:08.020 is in the driving

00:42:08.960 seat,

00:42:09.860 that will become

00:42:10.860 sovereign

00:42:12.780 at that moment.

00:42:13.720 If you have no

00:42:14.520 recourse against that,

00:42:15.880 if you have no

00:42:16.600 principle,

00:42:17.240 if you have no

00:42:17.700 path,

00:42:18.100 if you have no

00:42:18.680 Tao,

00:42:19.060 if you have no

00:42:19.540 Christ,

00:42:20.200 if you have no

00:42:20.980 way of breathing

00:42:23.000 and living God

00:42:24.660 into being,

00:42:25.600 then you will

00:42:26.320 default to the

00:42:27.700 instincts in

00:42:28.600 conjunction with

00:42:29.560 cultural influence.

00:42:31.420 Those will be the

00:42:32.480 two poles that

00:42:33.840 will generate

00:42:34.580 patterns as

00:42:35.680 surely as if

00:42:36.680 they were magnets

00:42:37.440 on iron

00:42:38.260 filings.

00:42:39.080 And for there to

00:42:39.920 be any charge

00:42:40.960 at all,

00:42:41.800 there must be

00:42:42.520 polarity.

00:42:43.860 This refusal of

00:42:45.060 the call,

00:42:45.660 the inability

00:42:46.420 to accept

00:42:47.340 maturation,

00:42:48.760 the inability

00:42:49.380 to throw off

00:42:50.840 infancy and

00:42:52.480 to accept

00:42:53.280 the chalice,

00:42:54.280 to accept

00:42:54.900 the grail,

00:42:55.800 to receive

00:42:56.680 the wound,

00:42:57.500 to know what

00:42:58.300 you must do.

00:42:59.840 There is a

00:43:01.160 tension in this

00:43:01.820 for me in the

00:43:03.420 maintenance of

00:43:04.340 the necessary

00:43:05.080 innocence that

00:43:06.140 Christ himself

00:43:07.280 insists we must

00:43:08.340 find.

00:43:09.300 And it seems

00:43:09.900 that when you

00:43:11.020 said for a

00:43:12.540 moment,

00:43:12.880 and I'd love

00:43:13.700 your take on

00:43:14.220 this as well

00:43:14.560 as everything

00:43:15.200 that I'm

00:43:15.560 saying,

00:43:16.400 that the

00:43:17.360 self is

00:43:18.260 amorphous,

00:43:18.980 the self is

00:43:19.560 an event,

00:43:20.400 it is not

00:43:21.000 in stasis,

00:43:22.200 the self will

00:43:23.160 be discovered

00:43:24.080 and will

00:43:24.800 evolve in

00:43:25.620 relationship,

00:43:27.060 then indeed

00:43:28.560 we do lend

00:43:29.940 some credence

00:43:30.920 to those

00:43:31.580 who say

00:43:32.280 these two

00:43:33.240 categories of

00:43:34.480 maleness and

00:43:35.420 femaleness or

00:43:36.320 man and

00:43:36.920 woman do not

00:43:37.980 suit me.

00:43:38.720 Now, no

00:43:40.060 doubt these

00:43:40.720 ideas, like

00:43:41.580 all ideas,

00:43:42.640 race,

00:43:43.660 distinction,

00:43:44.460 nationality,

00:43:45.360 commerce, have

00:43:46.320 been lent

00:43:47.400 further charged

00:43:48.440 by, I would

00:43:49.140 say, powerful

00:43:50.720 sets that seek

00:43:52.020 to govern and

00:43:52.860 control consciousness

00:43:53.720 itself, that see

00:43:54.920 that as the

00:43:55.840 ultimate terrain,

00:43:57.180 that require for

00:43:59.640 the perpetuation

00:44:00.460 of their control,

00:44:01.940 the continual

00:44:03.080 flinging of rocks

00:44:04.140 into that pool

00:44:05.060 to prevent

00:44:05.880 something glorious

00:44:07.020 coalescing there,

00:44:08.300 some new unity

00:44:09.520 and what I

00:44:11.220 would offer is

00:44:11.840 this, that

00:44:12.740 surely the

00:44:13.780 synthesis that

00:44:14.520 we're requiring

00:44:15.280 out of this

00:44:16.100 thesis, antithesis

00:44:17.640 war that we're

00:44:19.560 plainly still in

00:44:20.720 is the ability

00:44:21.800 to acknowledge

00:44:22.600 that there must

00:44:24.100 be some kind

00:44:25.000 of fluidity,

00:44:26.360 there must be

00:44:27.200 some kind of

00:44:28.140 freedom,

00:44:29.060 there must be

00:44:29.760 some kind of

00:44:30.520 acceptance that

00:44:31.840 tradition cannot

00:44:33.100 become a

00:44:34.780 rod to

00:44:36.160 steer,

00:44:37.020 control or

00:44:37.860 prod others,

00:44:39.500 that our

00:44:40.280 religious faith,

00:44:41.720 that our

00:44:42.180 spirituality,

00:44:43.240 that our

00:44:43.480 morality and

00:44:44.120 our ethics

00:44:44.640 must be for

00:44:45.400 the marshalling

00:44:46.220 of our own

00:44:47.080 instincts and

00:44:47.860 designs and

00:44:48.640 desire for

00:44:49.560 power and

00:44:50.680 you're right and

00:44:51.320 I always love it

00:44:52.140 Jordan when you

00:44:52.800 return it to

00:44:53.680 how are you

00:44:54.400 behaving in your

00:44:55.060 marriage, how

00:44:55.600 are you behaving

00:44:56.200 in yourself, I

00:44:57.260 was thinking about

00:44:57.880 how do I behave

00:44:58.700 in my marriage

00:44:59.360 with my wife,

00:45:00.680 how often do I

00:45:01.420 tend towards

00:45:02.300 power in

00:45:03.200 irritability,

00:45:04.500 leaning arrogantly

00:45:05.580 into whatever

00:45:06.360 sets of

00:45:07.360 abilities I'll

00:45:08.120 claim for

00:45:08.700 myself in

00:45:09.360 desperation and

00:45:10.900 God knows I

00:45:11.800 spend significant

00:45:13.200 time there but

00:45:14.380 because both you

00:45:15.120 and I tend to

00:45:17.080 as you laid out

00:45:17.900 earlier in our

00:45:18.560 conversation move

00:45:20.260 from the micro

00:45:21.960 to the macro

00:45:22.860 to march gladly

00:45:24.600 out to the

00:45:25.420 penumbra to see

00:45:26.780 what might be

00:45:27.540 found there,

00:45:28.520 it leaves us

00:45:29.340 with a kind of

00:45:30.640 one, a duty

00:45:32.060 to demonstrate

00:45:33.100 in our conduct

00:45:34.060 that quality of

00:45:35.580 joy and

00:45:36.520 open heartedness,

00:45:37.740 that quality of

00:45:38.640 good faith and

00:45:40.220 I feel that

00:45:40.980 perhaps the next

00:45:42.140 marker of our

00:45:43.840 progression might

00:45:44.960 be when we can

00:45:45.780 say, well what

00:45:47.900 is it that is of

00:45:48.840 value in these

00:45:50.020 ideas that are

00:45:50.680 emerging out of

00:45:51.620 post-structuralism,

00:45:53.100 this willingness to

00:45:55.240 cast out even

00:45:56.140 nature, even the

00:45:57.240 body I'm born in

00:45:58.140 isn't me, nature

00:45:59.240 itself isn't real,

00:46:00.740 to hell with the

00:46:01.540 sun, to hell

00:46:02.480 with Jesus, to

00:46:03.720 hell even with

00:46:05.040 my own chromosomes,

00:46:06.720 neither the

00:46:07.280 crucifix or the

00:46:09.220 why are of value

00:46:10.920 in the final

00:46:11.800 analysis and

00:46:13.320 because I've lived

00:46:14.280 there a while,

00:46:14.880 because I've lived

00:46:15.400 continually in

00:46:16.140 indulgence, because

00:46:17.060 I have been so

00:46:18.000 many times humbled

00:46:19.120 and my humbling

00:46:19.900 continues yet, what

00:46:21.780 it leaves me with

00:46:22.860 is that there is

00:46:23.780 something, obviously

00:46:24.700 there is something

00:46:26.260 in what you have

00:46:27.160 brought into our

00:46:27.800 culture that people

00:46:29.000 were looking for

00:46:30.240 and needed and

00:46:31.220 I value it and

00:46:32.300 I appreciate it,

00:46:33.260 that's why I

00:46:33.740 apologise when I'm

00:46:34.640 late, you know,

00:46:35.380 tidy your room

00:46:36.160 man, arrive on

00:46:38.080 time, stand up

00:46:39.800 straight, you know,

00:46:41.000 like, but there is

00:46:42.100 also something that

00:46:43.640 I am, before I was

00:46:45.720 an Ouroboros,

00:46:47.260 consuming my own

00:46:48.340 self, and now I

00:46:49.560 am more porous,

00:46:51.160 looking for ways to

00:46:53.020 be open to

00:46:53.940 solution, and, you

00:46:56.400 know, and I feel

00:46:56.900 there is something we

00:46:57.560 have to deliver, I

00:46:58.720 think that there is

00:46:59.680 something that we

00:47:00.960 have to deliver, and

00:47:01.960 I think the time, the

00:47:03.440 fissures and fractures

00:47:04.380 are emerging now, the

00:47:06.060 possibility exists now

00:47:07.620 for even, say, your

00:47:09.600 most vehement and

00:47:10.740 vocal detractors to

00:47:12.320 recognise in you what

00:47:14.400 you have brought to the

00:47:15.860 conversation that is

00:47:16.500 true, and for us to

00:47:18.200 recognise what they

00:47:19.840 have been saying that

00:47:21.040 is accurate, that is

00:47:22.360 correct, that is

00:47:23.560 worthy of being heard,

00:47:24.840 and I would say that

00:47:25.600 sort of if you just

00:47:26.380 casually, maybe out of

00:47:27.900 habit, use pride as

00:47:29.540 the example, that, you

00:47:31.360 know, instead of the

00:47:32.240 many heterosexual and

00:47:34.420 normative ways that

00:47:35.900 people are equally

00:47:37.240 indulgent and sort of

00:47:39.560 lost and adrift, and I

00:47:41.180 know those worlds because

00:47:42.180 I've lived there, then,

00:47:44.060 you know, then I think

00:47:44.900 that we're not affording

00:47:46.100 ourselves a pathway

00:47:47.280 through this that would

00:47:48.800 be beneficial.

00:47:49.440 Okay, so I'm going to,

00:47:54.600 you asked really, I

00:47:56.380 think, two fundamental

00:47:57.600 questions there.

00:47:58.580 One had to do with the

00:48:00.720 nature of authority and

00:48:02.600 force, and the other had

00:48:04.140 to do with fluidity.

00:48:07.160 Oh yeah, there was a

00:48:07.800 third one, which is what

00:48:08.960 did the postmodernists

00:48:10.400 bring to the table?

00:48:11.320 Let's start with that.

00:48:12.800 Well, here's one thing

00:48:13.640 they got right.

00:48:15.420 We see the world through

00:48:16.720 a story.

00:48:19.220 That's true.

00:48:21.040 That's revolutionary,

00:48:22.620 that truth, right?

00:48:24.600 And I think that, I

00:48:25.880 think the science now

00:48:27.000 points extremely strongly

00:48:28.540 in that direction.

00:48:30.600 The AI systems are

00:48:32.340 trained in accordance

00:48:34.320 with that notion.

00:48:36.760 All the great

00:48:37.960 psychologists'

00:48:38.740 perception that I've

00:48:39.700 studied and talked to

00:48:41.020 have concluded the same

00:48:42.580 thing.

00:48:43.080 We see the world

00:48:43.800 through a story.

00:48:44.920 The description of the

00:48:46.280 structure that we see

00:48:47.220 the world through is a

00:48:48.240 story, and we have to

00:48:49.860 weight our perceptions.

00:48:51.800 That goes back to that

00:48:52.960 collective unconscious

00:48:53.840 idea that we started

00:48:55.380 with, is that we see

00:48:57.080 the literal things we

00:48:58.900 see, our perceptions

00:48:59.920 themselves are a

00:49:01.100 function of that

00:49:01.820 weighting process.

00:49:02.960 They're a consequence

00:49:04.200 of a narrative process,

00:49:05.560 and so the postmodernists

00:49:06.760 got that right, and

00:49:08.260 that's why we have a

00:49:09.060 culture war, in part,

00:49:10.300 because we're trying to

00:49:11.180 work something out that's

00:49:12.140 very deep.

00:49:13.080 We see the world through

00:49:13.940 a story.

00:49:14.400 But is the story one

00:49:16.420 of power and tyranny?

00:49:18.360 Well, the answer to

00:49:19.680 that is, to a large

00:49:22.080 degree, unfortunately,

00:49:24.600 but not fundamentally.

00:49:27.320 And that's where the

00:49:28.960 postmodern lefties go

00:49:30.340 so terribly wrong,

00:49:31.440 because their insistence

00:49:34.520 is that the world is a

00:49:35.820 battleground of power.

00:49:37.680 And there isn't a more

00:49:39.820 dangerous conclusion

00:49:40.760 that you can possibly

00:49:42.520 draw than that.

00:49:43.420 Now, you still have to

00:49:45.560 give the devil his due,

00:49:46.820 so I'm going to consider

00:49:48.760 briefly the story of

00:49:50.000 Moses.

00:49:51.420 Okay, you talked about

00:49:52.360 the rod of authority,

00:49:53.720 right?

00:49:54.500 It's to be used

00:49:55.620 sparingly.

00:49:56.620 Well, Moses is the

00:49:58.560 archetypal leader, and

00:49:59.940 the main figure in the

00:50:01.100 Old Testament, arguably

00:50:02.220 speaking.

00:50:03.440 And he has the flaws of

00:50:06.140 the leader, even the

00:50:07.760 prophetic leader.

00:50:08.700 And the flaw is the

00:50:10.260 proclivity to default to

00:50:11.840 power.

00:50:12.960 And he does that quite

00:50:13.980 regularly.

00:50:15.860 In some of Moses'

00:50:17.380 actions are the kinds

00:50:19.140 of consequences and

00:50:21.500 motivations that someone

00:50:24.980 like Dawkins would point

00:50:26.380 to and say, a God who

00:50:28.240 would produce a

00:50:28.920 motivation that evil is

00:50:30.180 not a God that I'm

00:50:31.180 willing to abide by.

00:50:32.600 Now, he says at the

00:50:34.020 same time that he is a

00:50:35.200 cultural Christian.

00:50:35.980 So, the situation is

00:50:37.940 complex, and people are

00:50:39.320 starting to wake up to

00:50:40.820 that fact.

00:50:42.000 But Moses, his pattern of

00:50:44.940 failure, his Achilles

00:50:46.440 heel, is to use power when

00:50:49.620 he's called upon to use

00:50:51.060 invitation.

00:50:52.400 And this is actually fatal

00:50:54.020 in the final analysis.

00:50:55.380 So, in Numbers, which is

00:50:57.400 where the story of Exodus

00:50:58.780 basically concludes, Moses

00:51:00.960 has shepherded his people

00:51:03.500 through the desert, which

00:51:05.000 is where you end up with

00:51:06.280 when your tyranny

00:51:07.240 crumbles, right?

00:51:08.360 You end up in the

00:51:09.280 desert, which is why people

00:51:10.860 don't like to let go of

00:51:12.320 their presuppositions.

00:51:13.960 Anyways, he's shepherded

00:51:15.260 through the desert,

00:51:16.300 basically, for three

00:51:17.160 generations.

00:51:17.880 And they're on the border

00:51:19.380 of the promised land.

00:51:21.020 And the Israelites run yet

00:51:23.500 again out of water.

00:51:25.140 And they prevail upon

00:51:26.380 Moses to intercede with

00:51:27.860 God to provide water.

00:51:29.240 And God tells Moses,

00:51:31.100 there's some rocks nearby.

00:51:33.240 You go have, you go tell

00:51:34.600 those rocks to deliver the

00:51:35.940 water.

00:51:36.760 You go speak to those rocks

00:51:38.220 properly, and they'll

00:51:39.520 deliver the water that will

00:51:40.680 save your people.

00:51:41.860 And Moses goes to the rocks,

00:51:43.900 and he hits the rocks twice,

00:51:47.680 not once, but twice with his

00:51:49.500 staff.

00:51:50.480 Now, this staff, this is the

00:51:52.780 rod of Asclepius.

00:51:54.260 This is the flag you plant when

00:51:56.200 you establish new territory.

00:51:57.560 This is the liana or vine that

00:52:00.900 connects heaven and earth.

00:52:02.540 It's the staff that defeats

00:52:04.600 the staff of the court

00:52:06.080 magicians.

00:52:07.160 It's the staff that turns into

00:52:08.860 the serpent that eats all the

00:52:10.240 other serpents.

00:52:11.040 This is a major league staff,

00:52:13.360 right?

00:52:13.700 It's the authority of Moses.

00:52:17.000 And he uses authority when he's

00:52:19.720 called upon to use the logos.

00:52:22.040 That's his sin.

00:52:23.700 And the consequence of that is

00:52:25.480 dire.

00:52:25.980 God, Aaron, so the political arm

00:52:30.520 dies, and Moses is forbidden

00:52:34.200 from entering the promised land.

00:52:37.700 And so what's the rule there?

00:52:39.600 The rule is to the patriarch, let's

00:52:42.380 say.

00:52:42.960 The rule is do not use force when

00:52:46.460 you could use invitation.

00:52:47.720 Don't fall prey to that temptation.

00:52:51.440 Now, the left looks at the

00:52:53.240 patriarchy and says, nothing but

00:52:55.460 force.

00:52:55.940 It's like, wait a minute, guys.

00:53:00.140 Nothing but.

00:53:01.980 That's a bit too extreme a claim.

00:53:05.600 You mean nothing but?

00:53:06.880 It's like, okay, why the hell are

00:53:08.640 your lights on?

00:53:09.560 You know, look around you.

00:53:13.020 You think all of that's a

00:53:14.200 consequence of force.

00:53:15.520 Do you think that's all of that

00:53:17.060 productivity, all of that life more

00:53:19.240 abundant, all of that material

00:53:21.160 wealth?

00:53:21.940 You think that's a consequence of

00:53:23.620 nothing but force.

00:53:24.900 You think your marriage is nothing

00:53:26.600 but force.

00:53:27.760 You think your family is nothing but

00:53:29.360 force.

00:53:29.820 You think your community, your

00:53:31.860 friends, all business relationships,

00:53:34.160 that's nothing but power, is it?

00:53:36.680 And why am I supposed to believe

00:53:38.400 that you're not saying that just

00:53:39.780 to justify your own use of power?

00:53:42.240 Because that's how the radicals,

00:53:43.960 that's how they operate, as far as

00:53:45.500 I can tell.

00:53:46.100 It's like, well, the world's just a

00:53:47.700 battleground of power.

00:53:49.020 And the only thing important is, who

00:53:51.020 has the rod?

00:53:52.900 And that's a big problem because, no,

00:53:55.000 that's not a solution.

00:53:56.700 And there's a lot of self-service in

00:53:59.260 the claim that power rules.

00:54:01.540 It's very, very, very dangerous.

00:54:03.400 Now, if it isn't power, what is it?

00:54:06.680 Well, it's the antithesis of power.

00:54:08.980 You know, when Christ is the third

00:54:11.280 temptation that's offered to Christ

00:54:13.580 when he's in the desert and he

00:54:15.700 encounters Satan, is the temptation

00:54:19.220 of power, which he refuses.

00:54:23.840 And so we can derive from that the

00:54:25.640 idea that the pattern of Christ's

00:54:27.600 life is the antithesis of power.

00:54:30.920 And what you see in that life is the

00:54:32.880 constant refusal to use force no

00:54:37.520 matter what, right?

00:54:38.860 And the Roman soldiers make fun of

00:54:41.260 him.

00:54:41.580 They say, well, if you're the son of

00:54:42.960 God, you know, why don't you come off

00:54:44.320 the cross and lay the landscape to

00:54:46.960 waste, which is at least in principle

00:54:49.400 within the purview of possibility.

00:54:51.780 And the answer is, well, you're not

00:54:53.240 allowed in the final analysis, you're

00:54:57.120 not allowed to use force no matter

00:54:59.780 what, right?

00:55:01.940 Invitation, logos, not force.

00:55:07.040 And that seems to be tangled into this

00:55:09.820 idea of voluntary self-sacrifice as the

00:55:14.160 antithesis of power.

00:55:15.560 Perhaps then, Jordan, what we might

00:55:21.580 explore is something that I think I

00:55:26.060 heard Emmett Fox describe, was that were

00:55:31.340 we to be invited to save but one soul or

00:55:36.080 entire material empires, we always choose

00:55:41.760 the soul. And I suppose also in the

00:55:43.880 Bhagavad Gita, choose Krishna above all

00:55:47.600 the artillery and armory in the world and

00:55:50.080 the greatest weapons available.

00:55:52.640 Choose only Krishna, choose always the

00:55:55.720 divine.

00:55:57.100 That if Christ's power is not materially

00:56:00.500 practiced and yet indeed we find once

00:56:03.840 more at the centre of the discourse, that

00:56:06.740 word, that concept, power, the word and

00:56:10.340 concept upon which the post-modernists

00:56:12.340 arrived and you say reductively alighted

00:56:15.720 as conclusive.

00:56:17.880 I wonder, might we consider

00:56:20.200 that where this battlefield ultimately

00:56:25.980 resides is internally for surely Christ's

00:56:30.700 actions indicate that his power is in

00:56:33.960 self-sacrifice and in inaction and in the

00:56:37.160 refusal to implement force.

00:56:40.020 Clearly when you describe the these

00:56:43.920 benefits, if not glory, the practical

00:56:49.060 application and operation of culture and

00:56:52.640 the the the legacy of the patriarchy of

00:56:57.380 Western civilisation, the institutions

00:57:00.080 flawed but yet functioning, it's clearly

00:57:04.520 reductive to say that that is not but

00:57:07.200 force.

00:57:07.700 I suppose yet they may say the benefits

00:57:10.640 are inadvertent consequences only

00:57:13.720 afforded in the same way, just to use an

00:57:16.740 example off the top of my head, that the

00:57:19.660 the eventual end of slavery ultimately

00:57:23.560 delivers a workforce that gives you the

00:57:27.760 idea of progress but still allows

00:57:30.440 establishment interests to operate quite

00:57:34.140 comfortably once there.

00:57:36.500 Well, I don't think there's any reason to

00:57:39.480 dispute the reality of the claim that the

00:57:42.320 fundamental landscape, well I think the

00:57:45.160 fundamental landscape is good and evil but

00:57:47.200 right on top of that is tyranny and

00:57:49.140 slavery, right?

00:57:50.760 So if we go back to the story of the

00:57:52.760 Israelites, if we go back to the Exodus

00:57:54.560 story, you have there the claim that the

00:57:58.180 the the reality the leader always

00:58:01.660 contends with, always, is the reality of

00:58:06.240 tyranny and slavery at every level and

00:58:09.160 that's something like a power dynamic but

00:58:11.860 that doesn't mean that the solution to

00:58:14.920 the problem is that the slaves become the

00:58:16.940 tyrant.

00:58:18.280 In fact, that's a solution that's offered

00:58:20.460 to Moses as a possibility.

00:58:22.640 In fact, the Israelites clamor for it just

00:58:25.400 like they later clamor for a king.

00:58:27.700 The slaves want a king.

00:58:29.800 Is the slave tyranny dimension or the

00:58:34.080 slave tyranny, tyranny, tyrant dichotomy

00:58:36.520 played out in the capitalist landscape?

00:58:39.140 Well, obviously, like obviously, I don't

00:58:44.000 see that there needs to be a dispute about

00:58:45.780 that.

00:58:46.160 It's as an entry player in the capitalist

00:58:50.340 world, you play out the slave tyrant

00:58:53.660 dichotomy and you might say, well, that

00:58:56.820 means the slaves should overthrow the

00:58:58.760 tyrants, right?

00:58:59.760 But that doesn't that doesn't address the

00:59:02.900 fundamental problem.

00:59:04.040 The problem is, think about it this way.

00:59:06.380 How the hell do you stop being a slave?

00:59:09.820 Well, a slave to what?

00:59:11.480 Well, we could start, you know, you

00:59:12.880 already described this to some degree.

00:59:14.780 How about you stop being a slave to your

00:59:16.740 own goddamn whims, right?

00:59:20.220 Like exactly how is this battle to free

00:59:23.360 yourself from slavery to be undertaken?

00:59:26.540 Well, we're going to restructure the entire

00:59:28.600 economic system.

00:59:29.940 It's like, oh, you are.

00:59:30.880 You're going to do that, are you?

00:59:32.160 You're going to do that.

00:59:33.260 You can't even make your bed.

00:59:35.060 You're the prisoner of your own whim.

00:59:36.840 You're a slave to your own desires.

00:59:38.580 There's nothing to you.

00:59:40.120 If you did manage the revolution, the

00:59:42.780 monsters you released would take you out

00:59:44.940 so fast that you wouldn't have time to

00:59:47.080 think and it wouldn't be pleasant.

00:59:49.160 And we've seen that time and time again.

00:59:51.440 Like the solution to the slave tyrant

00:59:54.380 dichotomy isn't political revolution.

00:59:57.660 So you see that reflected again in the

01:00:00.380 passion story.

01:00:02.520 The mob that's upset with Christ is

01:00:06.720 upset, at least in part, because he

01:00:08.660 refuses to play the role of political

01:00:10.580 revolutionary.

01:00:11.280 And so, because that's not the way out

01:00:14.640 of the slave tyrant dichotomy.

01:00:17.780 The way out is to stop being a bloody

01:00:19.880 slave.

01:00:21.060 Now, how?

01:00:22.260 Well, I think that's partly the pathway of

01:00:25.320 maturation, isn't it?

01:00:26.540 Is that it's voluntary service to a higher

01:00:29.520 good.

01:00:30.040 It's something like that.

01:00:30.960 This is what God tells Moses to tell the

01:00:34.760 tyrants and the Israelites.

01:00:37.280 And we always get this wrong.

01:00:40.000 We always forget the second half of this.

01:00:42.440 So this is a civil rights shibboleth.

01:00:47.180 Moses tells the tyrant, the pharaoh, let

01:00:50.200 my people go.

01:00:52.820 You know, that's Martin Luther King, but

01:00:54.300 that's not what he says.

01:00:56.040 He says it 10 times, just in case you

01:00:58.000 didn't catch it the first time.

01:00:59.680 He says, let my people go.

01:01:01.900 So they may worship me in the desert.

01:01:06.420 And that means to establish a particular

01:01:08.180 kind of relationship outside the tyranny,

01:01:11.420 in the wilderness, that, well, it speaks

01:01:15.840 of the responsibility of each person to

01:01:18.720 take on the existential burden of

01:01:20.480 existence, the burden of existence,

01:01:23.120 voluntarily, right?

01:01:24.980 To become a locus of authority and

01:01:27.000 responsibility themselves, because otherwise

01:01:29.840 they abdicate that responsibility to the

01:01:31.960 tyrant.

01:01:32.900 And that's not fundamentally a political

01:01:34.840 problem.

01:01:35.940 It has political ramifications.

01:01:37.820 But, you know, like your decision to

01:01:39.980 become a father, that's not a political

01:01:41.740 decision.

01:01:43.340 And your ability to be a good father

01:01:46.520 is also, that's not a political choice.

01:01:49.820 It's something far deeper than that.

01:01:51.860 To the degree that you're a good father,

01:01:53.960 which is an abstract role, hence the name

01:01:56.840 father, you're going to be a conduit for

01:02:00.220 the spirit of, for the benevolent spirit

01:02:04.920 of your ancestors.

01:02:06.300 That's a perfectly reasonable way of

01:02:08.000 thinking about it.

01:02:08.760 You're going to let the spirit of the

01:02:10.320 father pour through you and occupy you,

01:02:14.200 right?

01:02:14.440 And that's a form of worship and

01:02:16.640 subordination.

01:02:17.740 It's not power.

01:02:19.120 I love it.

01:02:20.100 I love that.

01:02:21.040 Often in my wife, she, we have a young

01:02:24.100 son, as you know, and I see flashes of

01:02:27.420 the archetype.

01:02:28.600 I see how she is governed by what I

01:02:30.760 suppose Richard Dawkins would call

01:02:32.400 natural processes.

01:02:34.900 But I see beyond that.

01:02:36.840 I see the light that shines.

01:02:39.580 I see behind the behaviour, behind the

01:02:43.660 biology.

01:02:44.640 I feel the resonance that she is

01:02:48.720 redolent with the spirit of the

01:02:50.900 ancestors, that she's not just their

01:02:52.920 mother, but she is the verb mother.

01:02:54.740 How could any woman sacrifice so much?

01:02:57.620 How could any woman continue to provide

01:03:00.560 so unquestioningly and so diligently?

01:03:04.920 I'm struck by several things.

01:03:06.340 It's plain that there is a negotiation.

01:03:08.660 And it seems to me that what you're

01:03:09.740 saying is that the era of this new

01:03:12.480 progressive postmodern Marxist, to use

01:03:15.880 your sort of language that you would use,

01:03:19.320 even if I would query that language,

01:03:21.180 there is a negotiation, and that

01:03:23.760 negotiation, of course, must involve

01:03:25.880 power.

01:03:26.660 I'm struck that what Moses carries out

01:03:30.580 politically against another king, an

01:03:34.360 alternative king in the pharaoh, and as

01:03:37.580 the head of a tribe, Christ carries out as

01:03:41.300 an emissary alone and in the desert.

01:03:46.360 There are parallels.

01:03:47.580 The desert is a parallel.

01:03:49.160 The adversarial nature of the sort of

01:03:51.920 combat, there is a parallel there.

01:03:54.600 But in these distinctions, I suppose there

01:03:56.820 must be information, given that we are

01:03:58.720 operating on the assumption that this is

01:04:00.280 operating, this is your term, as a library and

01:04:03.380 sort of as a progressive discourse that's

01:04:05.660 deliberately trying to induce a state.

01:04:08.720 And perhaps it's the states that we're

01:04:10.580 describing quite simply in the father, the

01:04:13.480 mother, a role that may be useful to us.

01:04:16.220 And what I feel is, you know, what I feel

01:04:19.780 a hero, yes, yes, yes, to be worthy of

01:04:22.680 the term.

01:04:23.500 And what I feel like is important now,

01:04:26.220 certainly what feels important to me is

01:04:27.900 what is it that I am to revive?

01:04:31.860 How is it that I will continue to incline

01:04:35.780 towards this ancestral greatness?

01:04:38.860 What is the duty?

01:04:39.880 And how might the power of Logos impact

01:04:43.720 reality differently than force?

01:04:46.920 And it's...

01:04:47.660 Okay, so let me ask you, let me ask you that

01:04:50.340 specifically, like, you're quite the wizard of

01:04:53.040 words now, and so you have that as a gift.

01:04:57.340 Now, you've detailed out your subjugation to the

01:05:06.440 land of whim, let's say, and now you're, you have this

01:05:11.500 podcast, you have a public presence, you've been

01:05:15.780 vouchsafed that...

01:05:16.900 This is your podcast.

01:05:18.900 I'm in your podcast right now.

01:05:21.280 This is your podcast.

01:05:23.520 Now, man, that's a game somewhere.

01:05:25.480 When it becomes an absolute amorphous podcast where the

01:05:28.960 father and son don't even know because the spirit is so

01:05:32.560 abundant and all immersive, that we don't even know who's

01:05:35.520 Moses, who's the Pharaoh, who's Jesus, who's the serpent,

01:05:39.800 now we're getting somewhere, baby.

01:05:43.220 Well, so it seems to me...

01:05:44.760 Well, it seems to me the...

01:05:46.900 It's all of our podcasts, Russell.

01:05:52.020 So it seems to me that the simplest place for people to

01:05:56.000 start with regard to finding their pathway forward is to be

01:06:02.400 very careful with their words.

01:06:06.760 And I want to know something personal from you.

01:06:09.960 It's like, I believe that what you're doing on your podcast is

01:06:14.340 attempting to find your way forward carefully.

01:06:19.640 You're investigating and exploring, and that's the answer to the

01:06:23.040 question about amorphous identity.

01:06:25.600 It's like the people who push forward the notion that identity

01:06:30.780 is fluid, that's the case if you're progressing forward in

01:06:39.180 exploration and trying to expand your domain of responsibility,

01:06:43.200 let's say.

01:06:44.180 It's not true if what you're doing to be fluid in your identity is

01:06:49.080 the abandonment of all responsibility whatsoever.

01:06:53.040 And those can look casually very similar.

01:06:57.740 Now, I want to know from you, it's like, what is it that you're doing

01:07:02.160 with your words when you're doing what you should be doing?

01:07:05.980 And what's the consequence, what's been the consequence of that

01:07:10.260 for you and for your reputation and for, what would you say,

01:07:16.920 for your dynasty and for everyone else?

01:07:20.880 It's the same Abrahamic question.

01:07:24.000 If you use your words properly, I mean, first of all, do you?

01:07:28.400 If you do, why?

01:07:30.000 When you do, what happens?

01:07:31.840 How do you know when you deviate from that?

01:07:35.000 And what do you think your responsibility is in that regard?

01:07:38.020 Thank you.

01:07:40.080 The prayer of Jabez, I think, in Chronicles 2,

01:07:43.900 Oh, that you would bless me indeed and enlarge my territory,

01:07:47.880 that your hand would be with me, that you would keep me from evil.

01:07:53.580 I feel that with words.

01:07:56.500 That's a good one.

01:07:57.340 I feel like with words, I'm trying to keep, I'm trying to generate community.

01:08:03.220 I'm trying to use language to create common unity,

01:08:06.280 to instantiate and realise an inherent and already existing connection

01:08:11.100 and that we live individually and collectively in a super state of potentiality.

01:08:16.960 But it is our, he has no hands but ours.

01:08:19.880 That we are here to formulate his kingdom.

01:08:23.840 That as we have already referenced, that it is, we are his apostles.

01:08:27.580 That this is our duty.

01:08:29.840 Now, experientially how that is, is as you have kindly suggested,

01:08:36.300 it is indeed a gift and therefore requires no effort,

01:08:40.480 requires only acceptance and a receptive state.

01:08:45.300 When I'm in this receptive state, the communication is effortless.

01:08:49.440 I'm almost not a participant.

01:08:51.420 It seems to me that what the polarity is, is precisely as you have described,

01:08:56.120 that I am a both carried, I am a vessel for and a vehicle upon my instincts.

01:09:04.000 The flow of my instincts are that we had the senses,

01:09:08.120 are that we had the instruments to observe the patterns that might be about us,

01:09:13.020 the endocrinal streams that may yet flow and where they carry me

01:09:17.500 and with what telos and with what purpose in mind.

01:09:21.200 Upon these with my rod, I try to impose, Jordan, yes,

01:09:26.480 an ancestral inheritance of some value.

01:09:31.320 And the battleground for me, the battleground for me is the inculcation of this ego.

01:09:37.520 It was very, very well done by the culture.

01:09:40.340 The raw material of the appetites was that they did good work with this clay.

01:09:47.600 So easy if you feel a continual lack as one might,

01:09:51.940 if you have not yet been shown a path to God.

01:09:55.060 So easy to worship their herd of golden calves that they lay before you

01:10:03.420 and all of the bounties that are on offer.

01:10:08.040 It seems to me that it isn't, and this is from what I have learned from other alcoholics

01:10:13.420 and addicts that walk the path ahead of me,

01:10:15.300 that it isn't the external stimulant that must be addressed and overcome.

01:10:22.720 No, it is the receptive pole.

01:10:25.880 It is the coordinate.

01:10:28.740 It is the inner coordinate that must be overcome.

01:10:31.440 And I see what you mean now in the difference between the use of the staff and logos.

01:10:36.960 And I imagine you're using that word because there is no perfect English interpretation available for it.

01:10:44.200 And this kind of active awareness, this kind of active presence,

01:10:49.600 making ourselves, as I try in the rosary, to imagine the vibrant nothingness,

01:10:56.000 to feel the vibrant nothingness,

01:10:58.200 and here within the vibrant nothingness is the sacred mother.

01:11:03.640 And it is her that I petition that she may convey to her son,

01:11:07.520 the God that she grew in her belly, that I pray to, to be forgiven.

01:11:13.520 But not me as an individual, but me just as one more sheep,

01:11:19.500 just as one more member of the flock.

01:11:22.560 If I can overcome the appurtenances of my identity,

01:11:28.660 that I have been adorned with and self-adorned,

01:11:32.260 that I have ornamented endlessly,

01:11:34.660 that with the brush lent to me by the culture,

01:11:37.380 with the lacquer that I've squeezed out of every gland,

01:11:42.540 applied to fortify this shibboleth of self,

01:11:48.380 if I can somehow overcome that,

01:11:53.060 and where might I overcome it but in the present?

01:11:55.640 Where but the present?

01:11:57.220 Where but the, as you say, as you say the message of Christ,

01:12:00.060 the absolute refusal to use force,

01:12:03.240 the absolute refusal to use force,

01:12:06.300 that the higher will might be,

01:12:08.500 that the higher will might be engaged,

01:12:10.820 that the higher purpose might find its fulfilment.

01:12:13.280 The challenge, Jordan, that I would offer you,

01:12:18.060 inquiry rather, sir,

01:12:20.060 is that, you know, the acceptance that what is happening is God's will,

01:12:26.640 that the suffering is God's will,

01:12:29.500 that to let it go to work on you,

01:12:32.060 that the opposite, as I was taught recently,

01:12:34.340 the opposite of faith is not doubt,

01:12:37.700 the opposite of faith is certainty,

01:12:41.820 and that to live in this,

01:12:43.660 to live in this,

01:12:45.300 the horror of uncertainty,

01:12:48.060 and to live there with grace,

01:12:50.860 a grace that I cannot self-generate,

01:12:53.720 even if the source of all things must include me somehow,

01:12:58.280 is, that is the ongoing challenge,

01:13:00.840 and with language I suppose I hope to illustrate

01:13:03.520 that there are connections in these patterns of differences,

01:13:06.360 in these signifiers that may yet be arbitrary,

01:13:10.220 I do see the markings of some fractal archetype,

01:13:14.980 perhaps the success of the language that we're currently using,

01:13:19.040 is meritocratic,

01:13:20.620 maybe in its jagged consonants and flowing vowels,

01:13:24.700 in its labial fricatives,

01:13:26.880 in its linguistic grace,

01:13:29.280 there is something akin to truth emerging,

01:13:32.060 if we will just allow it.

01:13:34.200 Well, so, let me ask you something that's more personal,

01:13:40.300 then, this is my observation,

01:13:42.880 and you tell me if it's accurate.

01:13:45.040 So, you've talked about being spectacularly successful

01:13:50.180 in the land of hedonistic whim, let's say,

01:13:52.940 and you've discussed,

01:13:55.120 well, you were kind of an icon for that, right?

01:13:57.360 And a model for that, even.

01:14:00.280 And so, you know,

01:14:02.460 you're emblematic of that,

01:14:05.380 of the success of that approach,

01:14:07.580 but that didn't work,

01:14:08.880 for all sorts of reasons.

01:14:11.040 And so, it seemed to me that you

01:14:13.480 wandered out of that landscape

01:14:15.420 into a kind of amorphous mysticism,

01:14:18.460 but that that's become more targeted,

01:14:22.060 and it's become more targeted

01:14:23.760 in the Christian direction recently,

01:14:25.900 particularly, perhaps, in the last year.

01:14:28.160 Is all of that accurate?

01:14:29.580 Yes.

01:14:30.240 Is there any?

01:14:31.060 Okay, that is accurate.

01:14:32.300 Okay, so,

01:14:33.080 what do you make of the fact,

01:14:34.820 and you talked about the rosary specifically,

01:14:37.340 just now,

01:14:38.960 what do you make,

01:14:40.000 what do you make of the fact

01:14:42.080 that that journey out

01:14:45.640 in the desert of mysticism,

01:14:47.300 let's say,

01:14:48.400 is,

01:14:49.500 is,

01:14:50.680 well,

01:14:51.560 the things,

01:14:52.200 I think the same thing

01:14:53.520 is happening to you

01:14:54.500 in some ways

01:14:55.160 that's happening to people

01:14:56.360 like Ayaan Hirsi Ali

01:14:57.580 and to Neil Ferguson

01:14:58.840 and to Douglas Murray

01:15:00.360 and to Tim Holland,

01:15:01.480 Tom Holland,

01:15:02.360 and also to Richard Dawkins,

01:15:04.720 is that there's a recognition emerging

01:15:06.700 that there's something

01:15:07.720 in the midst of the mystic,

01:15:10.280 let's say,

01:15:11.200 down in the depths

01:15:12.140 of the metaphysical

01:15:13.100 that speaks of something

01:15:15.220 that's much more Christian

01:15:16.340 than any of us

01:15:17.100 would have possibly imagined,

01:15:19.840 let's say,

01:15:20.740 15 years ago

01:15:21.780 or even a year ago

01:15:22.940 for that matter.

01:15:24.600 And I'm wondering

01:15:25.940 how that's making itself manifest

01:15:28.640 specifically in your life.

01:15:30.640 Like,

01:15:30.880 how is this mysticism

01:15:32.380 that's obviously part of your nature,

01:15:34.960 that was probably

01:15:35.860 what was pulling you

01:15:37.040 at least in part

01:15:38.160 in the hedonistic direction

01:15:39.500 to begin with.

01:15:40.660 That was somewhat

01:15:41.420 desire for communion

01:15:42.980 with the spirit

01:15:44.120 of Dionysius and Bacchus,

01:15:46.100 you know,

01:15:46.400 like,

01:15:46.960 there's a call

01:15:49.080 to self-transcendence

01:15:50.520 in a kind of radical hedonism,

01:15:53.260 that's for sure.

01:15:54.820 And so,

01:15:55.760 it's just not

01:15:56.540 the optimal ground,

01:15:59.020 let's say.

01:15:59.540 It might be better

01:16:00.340 than rank cowardice,

01:16:01.600 however.

01:16:03.240 You know,

01:16:03.600 it was William Blake

01:16:04.440 who said,

01:16:05.600 wisdom through excess,

01:16:07.040 and there's something

01:16:07.980 to be said about that

01:16:09.120 and that's also echoed

01:16:10.680 in the tale

01:16:11.180 of the prodigal son,

01:16:12.340 by the way.

01:16:13.480 It's something

01:16:14.020 to wander

01:16:14.620 in the vast wastelands

01:16:16.420 of the hedonistic world

01:16:17.600 successfully

01:16:18.360 and then come home.

01:16:20.200 There's something

01:16:20.660 to be celebrated in that,

01:16:22.100 even though

01:16:22.480 you're going to pay

01:16:23.260 for your bloody sins,

01:16:24.360 that's for sure.

01:16:25.620 Even though

01:16:26.300 they may have been necessary

01:16:27.700 and even desirable

01:16:29.180 in some bizarre sense.

01:16:32.340 So,

01:16:32.700 in your life

01:16:33.520 at the moment,

01:16:35.300 it looks to me

01:16:36.740 like you've taken

01:16:37.460 a Christian tilt,

01:16:38.740 like what the hell

01:16:39.420 do you make of that?

01:16:40.840 And how do you know

01:16:41.480 that that's just not

01:16:42.440 another form of

01:16:43.300 self-aggrandizing falsehood?

01:16:46.980 Well,

01:16:47.680 you know,

01:16:48.380 just when you think

01:16:49.580 you've thrown the devil out.

01:16:51.480 There he is again,

01:16:53.260 all dressed up.

01:16:54.200 But somewhere to go.

01:16:58.980 Well,

01:16:59.460 you know,

01:16:59.880 I see Joseph Campbell

01:17:01.040 as a kind of

01:17:02.080 a sort of

01:17:03.060 deputy

01:17:03.680 to Jung's principle.

01:17:05.760 And I like

01:17:06.680 how

01:17:07.220 Campbell

01:17:08.140 says

01:17:08.860 in the end,

01:17:10.680 you

01:17:11.080 might

01:17:11.980 likely

01:17:12.560 explore

01:17:13.560 the

01:17:14.140 native

01:17:15.140 ideology

01:17:16.420 and theology.

01:17:17.400 Now,

01:17:17.540 I know that's

01:17:18.040 somewhat fast and loose

01:17:19.680 given that I'm in

01:17:20.380 Northern Europe

01:17:21.360 and the Nazarene

01:17:23.120 was hardly

01:17:24.100 springing forth

01:17:25.380 from

01:17:25.980 Essex

01:17:27.020 greys

01:17:27.700 on the Thames side.

01:17:29.320 Right.

01:17:29.560 An important point to make.

01:17:30.960 An important point to make.

01:17:32.380 Western.

01:17:33.220 It's like,

01:17:33.580 yeah,

01:17:33.880 not exactly.

01:17:35.900 Yes,

01:17:36.560 yes.

01:17:37.680 How it has felt

01:17:39.080 as

01:17:39.980 almost as if

01:17:41.100 something that felt

01:17:42.200 so

01:17:42.860 parochial

01:17:43.980 and prosaic

01:17:44.980 because of the,

01:17:46.080 you know,

01:17:47.020 because of the

01:17:47.580 delivery systems

01:17:49.260 of

01:17:49.980 it's ordinary,

01:17:51.480 it's abundant,

01:17:52.320 it's these

01:17:53.240 grandmas

01:17:53.920 at a bus

01:17:54.540 stop,

01:17:55.180 it's the

01:17:55.700 drab

01:17:56.200 intonations

01:17:57.180 of a

01:17:58.000 vicar

01:17:58.300 in a

01:17:58.740 parish,

01:17:59.380 it's the

01:17:59.820 apologetic

01:18:00.740 Church of

01:18:01.260 England,

01:18:01.600 and I'm not

01:18:01.940 attacking the

01:18:02.740 Church of

01:18:03.280 England,

01:18:03.840 but where you

01:18:04.440 feel that they

01:18:04.900 might almost

01:18:05.500 be afraid to

01:18:06.340 mention God

01:18:07.880 in there

01:18:08.700 for fear of

01:18:09.580 stepping on

01:18:10.380 somebody's

01:18:11.220 toes.

01:18:12.120 He's in the

01:18:13.180 broom closet,

01:18:14.120 he's underneath

01:18:14.900 the mob.

01:18:16.200 Yes,

01:18:16.920 definitely.

01:18:17.400 So,

01:18:19.080 because it

01:18:20.040 felt so,

01:18:21.760 it felt so

01:18:22.400 sort of,

01:18:22.840 you know,

01:18:23.120 local,

01:18:23.720 like this

01:18:24.040 figure of

01:18:24.760 Christ,

01:18:25.340 what it's

01:18:25.740 felt like

01:18:27.360 is,

01:18:27.940 oh,

01:18:28.140 it's you,

01:18:29.260 he's always

01:18:29.920 been there,

01:18:30.980 he's always

01:18:31.780 been there,

01:18:32.920 there is

01:18:33.240 something in

01:18:33.920 this that

01:18:34.320 is not,

01:18:35.980 as you

01:18:36.800 obviously are

01:18:37.640 exploring as

01:18:39.000 well as

01:18:39.400 rather beautifully

01:18:40.540 illuminating for

01:18:43.240 us,

01:18:43.800 there's something

01:18:44.560 in these texts

01:18:46.460 that is about

01:18:48.380 inducing states

01:18:50.100 and as

01:18:51.480 whenever a

01:18:54.040 ultimately a

01:18:55.180 rational idea

01:18:56.640 issued through

01:18:58.400 language,

01:18:59.780 poetics,

01:19:01.020 you know,

01:19:01.240 through poetics

01:19:02.200 when you induce

01:19:03.020 a state beyond

01:19:04.480 what is

01:19:05.540 literally

01:19:06.500 encoded,

01:19:07.860 when you

01:19:08.340 invite somehow

01:19:09.700 that you reach

01:19:10.740 beyond what is

01:19:11.580 presented

01:19:12.040 linguistically,

01:19:13.300 it seemed to

01:19:15.160 me somehow

01:19:15.780 that in

01:19:17.040 returning to

01:19:17.800 this,

01:19:18.220 in returning to

01:19:18.800 the Bible,

01:19:19.280 in returning

01:19:19.720 to Christ,

01:19:20.780 indeed it does

01:19:21.420 feel like a

01:19:22.140 return,

01:19:22.640 doesn't it,

01:19:23.220 rather than

01:19:24.040 a novel

01:19:24.800 discovery

01:19:25.580 issued at

01:19:26.860 the shore

01:19:27.500 by a

01:19:28.640 missionary

01:19:29.040 who doesn't

01:19:29.840 know whether

01:19:30.240 he's going to

01:19:30.660 get a pat

01:19:31.180 on the back

01:19:31.780 or a

01:19:32.580 cauldron to

01:19:33.380 swim in

01:19:33.980 at high

01:19:34.620 temperatures,

01:19:35.580 it's felt

01:19:36.340 to me like

01:19:37.100 this has

01:19:38.560 always been

01:19:39.200 here,

01:19:39.920 this has

01:19:40.280 always been

01:19:40.940 here,

01:19:41.700 I'm of

01:19:42.240 course enjoying

01:19:43.120 C.S.

01:19:43.880 Lewis's

01:19:44.340 approach because

01:19:45.120 I am a

01:19:46.540 product of

01:19:47.680 cultural

01:19:49.440 atheism,

01:19:50.260 materialism,

01:19:51.500 hedonism,

01:19:52.620 and yes,

01:19:53.500 a child as

01:19:55.400 much of

01:19:55.940 Jim Morrison

01:19:56.860 as William

01:19:58.360 Blake,

01:19:59.540 this is about

01:20:00.820 the Dionysian,

01:20:02.060 the Bacchanalian,

01:20:03.220 this is about

01:20:03.740 empowerment,

01:20:04.900 sex magic,

01:20:06.240 the glory of

01:20:07.420 it all,

01:20:07.780 the abundant

01:20:08.360 glory,

01:20:09.320 throwing off

01:20:10.020 the liminal

01:20:11.180 and the

01:20:11.580 limiting,

01:20:13.200 and of

01:20:13.980 course then

01:20:14.700 one arrives

01:20:15.620 one day

01:20:16.260 at the

01:20:16.600 terrible

01:20:17.020 conclusion

01:20:17.860 that there's

01:20:19.060 nothing there

01:20:19.980 and perhaps

01:20:20.660 only then

01:20:21.320 indeed that's

01:20:22.120 why Jim Morrison

01:20:22.980 died at

01:20:24.680 27,

01:20:25.520 which seems

01:20:25.960 to be the

01:20:26.440 fate of

01:20:26.940 many,

01:20:27.520 many

01:20:27.900 enthusiastic

01:20:30.120 Bacchanalian

01:20:31.200 geniuses.

01:20:33.140 For surely

01:20:33.620 there must be

01:20:35.360 a death,

01:20:35.940 for surely

01:20:36.340 there must be

01:20:36.860 a death,

01:20:37.220 hopefully you

01:20:38.160 don't have

01:20:38.680 to kill

01:20:39.080 the host,

01:20:40.200 hopefully the

01:20:40.980 death is

01:20:41.800 merely the

01:20:42.400 idea,

01:20:43.420 and what

01:20:44.280 is offered,

01:20:45.400 and one

01:20:46.120 thing I feel

01:20:46.720 as you know

01:20:47.140 from our

01:20:47.460 previous

01:20:47.800 conversations

01:20:48.480 that I

01:20:49.060 have at

01:20:49.620 least a

01:20:50.180 kind of

01:20:50.980 experiential

01:20:51.920 authority to

01:20:52.860 speak about

01:20:53.400 while not

01:20:54.280 representative

01:20:54.940 authority,

01:20:56.160 is the

01:20:56.720 impact of

01:20:57.380 the 12

01:20:57.820 steps on

01:20:58.500 the psyche

01:20:58.940 of an

01:20:59.280 addict and

01:20:59.820 its analysis

01:21:00.580 ultimately

01:21:02.280 that what

01:21:03.400 addiction

01:21:03.940 represents

01:21:04.660 is a

01:21:06.180 spiritual

01:21:06.560 problem,

01:21:07.220 is a

01:21:07.680 spiritual

01:21:08.020 quandary,

01:21:08.800 and even

01:21:09.600 embedded in

01:21:10.580 the idioms

01:21:11.480 like get

01:21:12.340 off my

01:21:12.840 face,

01:21:13.780 lose myself,

01:21:15.040 get smashed,

01:21:16.420 is the

01:21:16.900 idea that

01:21:17.500 what the

01:21:18.420 actual

01:21:18.840 impulse is,

01:21:19.860 and indeed

01:21:20.420 think how

01:21:21.060 significant

01:21:21.500 the word

01:21:22.140 craving is

01:21:23.440 within

01:21:23.940 addiction,

01:21:24.860 is a

01:21:25.420 move

01:21:26.040 towards

01:21:27.020 a

01:21:27.600 pulling,

01:21:28.580 some

01:21:28.960 force,

01:21:29.940 some

01:21:30.140 source,

01:21:31.120 some

01:21:31.300 calling,

01:21:31.980 some

01:21:32.120 clarion

01:21:32.660 call,

01:21:33.540 some

01:21:33.740 harbinger,

01:21:35.020 awaiting

01:21:35.440 some

01:21:35.800 personal

01:21:36.360 rapture,

01:21:37.440 the

01:21:37.560 problem

01:21:37.840 is of

01:21:38.560 course

01:21:38.900 living as

01:21:40.140 we do

01:21:40.500 in these

01:21:41.260 the context

01:21:42.820 that ultimately

01:21:43.420 offers you

01:21:44.000 as the

01:21:44.560 end goal

01:21:45.080 through

01:21:45.580 materialist

01:21:46.800 and rational

01:21:47.320 analysis

01:21:47.940 that you

01:21:48.820 might become

01:21:49.540 just this

01:21:50.320 type of

01:21:50.960 a person

01:21:51.560 in this

01:21:52.240 type of

01:21:52.700 a society,

01:21:53.580 something

01:21:54.040 important

01:21:54.680 is lost

01:21:55.520 and those

01:21:56.240 things are

01:21:56.640 explicit

01:21:57.900 in the

01:21:58.440 texts

01:21:59.000 that

01:21:59.520 undergird

01:22:00.340 12-step

01:22:01.440 practice

01:22:02.060 and philosophy,

01:22:03.320 it is

01:22:03.760 plain that

01:22:04.500 they are

01:22:04.820 talking

01:22:05.240 primarily

01:22:05.740 about

01:22:06.040 and I've

01:22:06.440 said to

01:22:06.700 you before

01:22:07.020 but I'll

01:22:07.360 say again

01:22:07.820 that Jung

01:22:08.480 was a key

01:22:09.100 influence

01:22:09.640 on the

01:22:09.980 founders

01:22:10.280 of that

01:22:10.660 movement

01:22:10.980 along

01:22:11.420 curiously

01:22:12.680 along with

01:22:13.140 first century

01:22:13.880 Christianity

01:22:14.920 that what

01:22:16.000 they are not

01:22:16.780 saying

01:22:17.220 you know

01:22:18.260 give up

01:22:18.640 drinking

01:22:18.940 give up

01:22:19.280 drugs

01:22:19.660 they are

01:22:20.100 saying

01:22:20.380 give up

01:22:20.880 self

01:22:21.240 give up

01:22:21.820 self

01:22:22.220 give up

01:22:22.820 self

01:22:23.220 there are

01:22:24.340 phrases

01:22:24.700 like

01:22:24.940 abandon

01:22:25.520 yourself

01:22:26.100 to God

01:22:26.920 completely

01:22:27.900 like after

01:22:28.840 they get

01:22:29.220 past the

01:22:29.600 it's not

01:22:29.960 going very

01:22:30.320 well is

01:22:30.700 it all

01:22:30.940 this drinking

01:22:31.400 and drug

01:22:31.860 use

01:22:32.100 and even

01:22:32.940 indicated in

01:22:33.760 the earliest

01:22:34.280 literature

01:22:35.760 for these

01:22:37.080 groups

01:22:37.540 is the

01:22:38.420 idea that

01:22:38.920 there will

01:22:39.360 be behavioural

01:22:40.460 expressions

01:22:41.120 that there

01:22:41.880 will be

01:22:42.160 sexual

01:22:42.580 behaviours

01:22:43.580 there will

01:22:44.080 promiscuity

01:22:44.920 etc

01:22:45.420 and God

01:22:46.300 alone

01:22:46.740 and if you

01:22:47.800 maybe even

01:22:48.640 just take

01:22:49.280 that as

01:22:50.260 one thread

01:22:51.080 and consider

01:22:52.060 what the

01:22:52.880 70 years

01:22:53.880 since this

01:22:54.740 piece of

01:22:55.500 folk

01:22:56.120 philosophy

01:22:56.820 was all

01:22:58.020 good

01:22:58.440 in the

01:22:59.040 world

01:22:59.340 of

01:22:59.600 pornography

01:23:00.060 something

01:23:00.860 that was

01:23:01.340 once

01:23:01.720 of course

01:23:02.280 available

01:23:02.840 but somewhat

01:23:03.580 abstract

01:23:04.000 and now

01:23:04.680 is normalised

01:23:05.740 immersive

01:23:06.460 immediately

01:23:07.560 available

01:23:08.740 it's

01:23:09.680 it seems

01:23:10.640 that the

01:23:10.940 environment

01:23:11.420 is encroaching

01:23:12.440 and this

01:23:13.040 reminds me of

01:23:13.480 something

01:23:13.700 sort of

01:23:14.160 important

01:23:14.460 I want to

01:23:14.780 say

01:23:14.900 of course

01:23:15.300 anyone

01:23:15.600 that explores

01:23:16.160 it is

01:23:16.540 the reason

01:23:17.100 the prodigal

01:23:17.540 son is

01:23:17.860 important

01:23:18.200 is because

01:23:18.980 like if

01:23:19.940 someone's

01:23:21.040 telling you

01:23:21.660 you don't

01:23:22.160 want to be

01:23:22.460 doing any

01:23:22.960 of that

01:23:23.360 and it

01:23:23.800 seems that

01:23:24.260 it's born

01:23:24.800 in prurience

01:23:25.740 and an inability

01:23:26.820 to attract

01:23:28.380 mates

01:23:28.860 well what's

01:23:29.540 the value

01:23:30.060 of that

01:23:30.460 testimony

01:23:31.000 but someone

01:23:31.820 that's come

01:23:32.360 back from

01:23:33.060 there

01:23:33.380 and says

01:23:33.960 well give

01:23:34.960 it a try

01:23:35.560 but it

01:23:36.020 didn't work

01:23:36.580 very well

01:23:37.080 for me

01:23:37.480 it is

01:23:38.400 I think

01:23:39.000 is a more

01:23:39.380 powerful

01:23:39.920 testimony

01:23:41.100 to deliver

01:23:42.220 at least

01:23:42.940 it seems

01:23:43.420 to me

01:23:43.800 that certainly

01:23:44.940 that is a

01:23:45.440 testimony

01:23:45.720 that has

01:23:46.340 affected me

01:23:47.000 more

01:23:47.240 but what

01:23:47.800 is difficult

01:23:48.140 to avoid

01:23:48.820 I feel

01:23:49.280 Jordan

01:23:49.880 is the

01:23:50.480 sense that

01:23:51.080 not only

01:23:52.380 is there

01:23:52.740 this

01:23:52.960 you know

01:23:53.220 and it's

01:23:53.680 something you

01:23:54.040 touched upon

01:23:54.440 earlier

01:23:54.800 you said

01:23:55.760 no it's

01:23:56.480 not only

01:23:57.220 force

01:23:57.720 you know

01:23:58.220 and I

01:23:58.700 sort of

01:23:59.080 offered you

01:23:59.580 that perhaps

01:24:00.100 the benevolence

01:24:01.640 that this

01:24:02.120 force has

01:24:02.640 issued

01:24:02.960 but could

01:24:03.900 be

01:24:04.220 and this

01:24:04.620 is of

01:24:04.900 course

01:24:05.040 reductive

01:24:05.540 an inadvertent

01:24:06.680 side effect

01:24:07.740 of tyranny

01:24:10.100 and please

01:24:11.440 be aware

01:24:12.200 that I

01:24:12.880 am

01:24:13.320 apprised

01:24:14.140 of the

01:24:14.460 fact

01:24:14.740 that the

01:24:15.300 forms of

01:24:15.860 tyranny

01:24:16.340 that are

01:24:16.980 emerging

01:24:17.500 now

01:24:17.960 apparently

01:24:18.600 in opposition

01:24:19.720 to these

01:24:20.720 old school

01:24:21.640 not to be

01:24:22.440 repeated

01:24:22.860 let's face

01:24:23.500 it

01:24:23.700 militaristic

01:24:24.780 demagogic

01:24:25.940 populist

01:24:26.640 strongman

01:24:27.400 forms of

01:24:27.880 tyranny

01:24:28.220 that we're

01:24:28.740 being continually

01:24:29.480 warned of

01:24:30.140 are far

01:24:30.940 more terrifying

01:24:32.000 the Kafkaesque

01:24:33.300 bureaucratic

01:24:34.660 banalised

01:24:36.060 invisible

01:24:37.120 dreadful

01:24:38.220 we're here

01:24:39.020 to help

01:24:39.740 I'm afraid

01:24:40.540 your inquiry

01:24:41.560 can't be heard

01:24:42.400 this is

01:24:43.300 diabolical

01:24:44.700 Huxley's

01:24:45.860 hell

01:24:46.180 terrifies me

01:24:47.360 even more

01:24:48.220 than Orwell's

01:24:49.540 although

01:24:49.940 plainly we're

01:24:51.320 in some

01:24:51.760 amalgam

01:24:52.480 with

01:24:53.060 beautiful

01:24:54.040 gilding

01:24:54.820 from Kafka

01:24:55.940 in the

01:24:56.520 sort of

01:24:56.860 unknowable

01:24:58.000 where is

01:24:59.360 the judge

01:24:59.900 what is

01:25:00.600 the trial

01:25:01.240 who's

01:25:01.720 doing all

01:25:02.300 this stuff

01:25:03.100 and it

01:25:03.860 seems to

01:25:04.300 me

01:25:04.520 that there

01:25:05.100 must be

01:25:05.700 even if

01:25:06.760 we are to

01:25:07.160 say it's

01:25:07.460 about power

01:25:08.040 even if

01:25:08.480 we are

01:25:08.760 asking

01:25:09.260 is it

01:25:10.260 an internal

01:25:10.840 struggle

01:25:11.320 is it

01:25:11.860 my power

01:25:12.540 over my

01:25:13.380 instincts

01:25:13.900 and the

01:25:14.820 expression of

01:25:15.460 those instincts

01:25:16.040 in conjunction

01:25:17.480 with culture

01:25:18.320 that I might

01:25:19.040 call self

01:25:19.680 over time

01:25:20.460 there seems

01:25:21.660 to be some

01:25:22.180 other agent

01:25:22.980 there does

01:25:23.660 indeed seem

01:25:24.220 to be a

01:25:24.740 serpent

01:25:25.080 there do

01:25:25.820 indeed appear

01:25:26.520 to be

01:25:26.900 fallen angels

01:25:27.780 there do

01:25:28.400 indeed appear

01:25:28.980 to be

01:25:29.320 ulterior forces

01:25:30.320 at work

01:25:31.320 for I am

01:25:32.200 struck

01:25:32.760 that when

01:25:33.520 I was

01:25:34.180 an emblem

01:25:35.080 of this

01:25:36.040 culture

01:25:36.540 in my

01:25:37.200 hedonism

01:25:37.880 I was

01:25:38.880 gloried

01:25:39.680 and made

01:25:40.180 much of

01:25:40.880 and when

01:25:41.680 I say

01:25:42.120 there is

01:25:42.540 something else

01:25:43.520 we must

01:25:44.300 move

01:25:44.660 towards

01:25:45.200 God

01:25:45.720 this

01:25:46.940 is when

01:25:47.820 the culture

01:25:48.260 comes alive

01:25:49.060 this

01:25:49.820 is when

01:25:50.580 the spotlight

01:25:51.040 shines

01:25:51.780 this

01:25:52.480 is when

01:25:53.180 the knock

01:25:53.560 at the door

01:25:53.980 comes

01:25:54.460 this

01:25:55.020 is when

01:25:55.420 forces

01:25:55.880 are marshaled

01:25:56.720 it seems

01:25:57.660 to me

01:25:58.320 that something

01:25:59.420 someone must

01:26:00.600 have been

01:26:00.940 telling lies

01:26:02.000 about

01:26:02.580 Joseph K

01:26:03.440 all right

01:26:05.360 sir look

01:26:06.000 I'm gonna

01:26:06.520 I'm going

01:26:07.360 to I'm gonna

01:26:08.280 close on

01:26:09.020 that

01:26:09.380 you know

01:26:10.080 we'll

01:26:11.700 obviously

01:26:12.320 continue

01:26:12.860 this

01:26:13.160 conversation

01:26:13.900 as the

01:26:15.660 necessity

01:26:16.200 yeah

01:26:19.640 how's

01:26:21.240 your son

01:26:21.780 he's doing

01:26:22.600 so marvellously

01:26:23.440 well

01:26:23.880 he's doing

01:26:24.340 I mean

01:26:24.700 it's just

01:26:25.060 beautiful

01:26:25.760 what it's

01:26:28.360 done to

01:26:28.560 the family

01:26:28.880 dynamic

01:26:29.360 this child

01:26:30.260 again

01:26:30.940 to see

01:26:32.040 my wife

01:26:33.240 mother him

01:26:33.920 so beautifully

01:26:35.140 to

01:26:36.280 reaffirm

01:26:37.940 my connection

01:26:38.500 with my

01:26:38.860 two daughters

01:26:39.600 to experience

01:26:42.180 the

01:26:42.920 you know

01:26:43.660 bloody hell

01:26:44.380 man

01:26:44.720 like

01:26:45.320 I tell

01:26:45.940 you

01:26:46.200 to see

01:26:46.800 your son

01:26:47.500 on a

01:26:48.560 slab

01:26:49.360 with what

01:26:49.880 appeared to

01:26:50.440 be

01:26:50.520 they might

01:26:50.840 as well

01:26:51.020 have been

01:26:51.260 sort of

01:26:51.600 Mayan

01:26:52.080 priests

01:26:52.860 these

01:26:53.500 giant

01:26:54.080 anaesthetists

01:26:55.320 before they

01:26:56.580 carve open

01:26:57.720 his thorax

01:26:58.740 with the

01:26:59.680 happy intention

01:27:00.820 of course

01:27:01.340 of saving

01:27:01.940 his life

01:27:02.680 it feels

01:27:04.100 biblical

01:27:04.500 indeed

01:27:05.740 to be

01:27:06.720 confronted

01:27:07.320 with that

01:27:08.020 to

01:27:08.740 oh

01:27:09.660 it gave

01:27:10.420 me moments

01:27:11.140 to a

01:27:11.960 mother

01:27:12.420 weeping

01:27:13.160 for her

01:27:13.580 child

01:27:14.080 the

01:27:15.120 hopelessness

01:27:15.860 the despair

01:27:16.360 and of course

01:27:17.060 this was

01:27:17.460 within the

01:27:18.020 tundra

01:27:18.480 this was

01:27:19.180 within the

01:27:19.740 tundra

01:27:20.240 of

01:27:20.980 what amount

01:27:21.960 to lies

01:27:23.040 and my

01:27:24.360 god

01:27:24.800 Jordan

01:27:25.220 my god

01:27:26.380 you know

01:27:27.040 I mean

01:27:27.800 this might

01:27:28.180 give you an

01:27:28.580 indication

01:27:29.100 why someone

01:27:29.940 might go

01:27:30.460 scurrying

01:27:31.520 somewhat

01:27:32.100 keenly

01:27:32.700 towards

01:27:33.260 Jesus

01:27:33.900 hey I

01:27:36.620 got a

01:27:36.940 book for

01:27:37.360 you

01:27:37.600 yeah

01:27:38.020 read the

01:27:39.940 sacred

01:27:40.280 and the

01:27:40.680 profane

01:27:41.280 by

01:27:43.540 Mircea

01:27:44.040 Iliad

01:27:44.540 yeah

01:27:45.680 he was a

01:27:46.520 big influence

01:27:47.100 on Campbell

01:27:47.720 too

01:27:48.000 and

01:27:48.280 Iliad

01:27:49.120 is a

01:27:49.460 real

01:27:49.640 genius

01:27:50.160 he's a

01:27:50.860 real

01:27:51.040 genius

01:27:51.540 very

01:27:51.920 short

01:27:52.280 book

01:27:52.700 punchy

01:27:53.660 as hell

01:27:54.160 deadly

01:27:55.320 book

01:27:55.720 he's got

01:27:56.740 about six

01:27:57.360 or seven

01:27:57.840 that are

01:27:58.180 very much

01:27:58.660 worth reading

01:27:59.180 but that's

01:27:59.620 probably top

01:28:00.220 of the

01:28:00.440 list

01:28:00.740 the sacred

01:28:01.720 and the

01:28:02.080 profane

01:28:02.660 next time

01:28:03.900 we talk

01:28:04.340 we can

01:28:04.660 talk about

01:28:05.200 it

01:28:05.360 all right

01:28:05.900 that'd be

01:28:06.260 great man

01:28:06.940 hey I love

01:28:08.500 you

01:28:08.660 he's talking

01:28:09.220 to you

01:28:09.500 Russell

01:28:09.880 you hang

01:28:11.280 in there

01:28:11.760 yes sir

01:28:12.440 my love

01:28:13.200 to Tammy

01:28:13.620 and to

01:28:14.060 your children

01:28:14.480 and thank

01:28:15.040 you

01:28:15.580 all right

01:28:16.920 sir

01:28:17.200 to everybody

01:28:18.180 watching and

01:28:18.900 listening

01:28:19.220 thank you

01:28:19.820 very much

01:28:20.280 for your

01:28:20.580 time and

01:28:21.000 attention

01:28:21.400 to the

01:28:22.200 daily

01:28:22.420 wire plus

01:28:23.180 people

01:28:24.240 for making

01:28:25.220 this possible

01:28:25.920 that's much

01:28:26.480 appreciated

01:28:27.120 to the film

01:28:28.400 crew here

01:28:28.840 today

01:28:29.260 in Tulsa

01:28:30.480 El

01:28:30.700 Oklahoma

01:28:31.040 that's where

01:28:31.720 we are

01:28:32.040 thanks for

01:28:32.560 your help

01:28:33.040 Russell

01:28:33.840 we'll talk

01:28:34.520 soon

01:28:34.840 thanks for

01:28:35.860 thanks for

01:28:36.500 chatting

01:28:36.780 today

01:28:37.200 we'll talk

01:28:38.540 to you

01:28:51.140 and

01:28:52.020 we'll talk

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - April 29, 2024

444. The Collective Unconscious, Christ, and the Covenant ｜ Russell Brand

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