The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 461. The Story of Possum Trot

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00:00:57.540 Hello, everybody.

00:01:12.560 I'm here today talking to Bishop Martin, his wife, Donna Martin, my wife, Tammy Peterson, and Joshua Weigel,

00:01:20.540 who's the director, producer, and writer with his wife, Rebecca, of the movie, The Sound of Hope, The Story of Possum Trot.

00:01:28.960 This is a story about a small community, Possum Trot, that decided to take matters into their own hands in a responsible way.

00:01:36.940 And 22 families in the community adopted 76 children, pulling them out of the foster care system, and they decided to take the children who no one wanted.

00:01:47.280 That's older children in the foster care system.

00:01:50.000 And the movie explores that topic, that difficult topic.

00:01:54.880 It's a hell of a thing to take it onto yourself, to pull someone you don't know who's been hurt into your life, to try to intercede in a positive manner.

00:02:05.420 Joshua pointed out, for example, in the conversation that there's about 400,000 children in the foster care system in the U.S.

00:02:12.940 And if every church did what the church community in Possum Trot did, that there'd be no children at all in the foster care system.

00:02:20.880 And God only knows what positive results might emerge socially in consequence of that.

00:02:27.040 And so this is an investigation into the compelling story of the families of Possum Trot, as well as in this discussion,

00:02:35.920 an analysis of the motives that the people in the community had for undertaking this venture,

00:02:41.340 and a discussion of the potential consequences on the psychological and social stage of adopting responsibility to take care of the least among these, so to speak.

00:02:55.660 So, welcome to the conversation.

00:03:00.360 All right, Joshua, let's start with you.

00:03:03.460 Why don't you tell us, well, two things.

00:03:05.380 Tell us the story of writing, first writing, and then producing and directing The Sound of Hope.

00:03:12.660 And also maybe fill us in on the details of your association with Angel Studios.

00:03:19.360 Good.

00:03:19.760 Well, I'm glad to be here.

00:03:20.780 Thank you guys so much.

00:03:21.400 Yeah, thanks for coming, all of you.

00:03:23.300 Thank you.

00:03:23.740 So, well, the story, just real quick, is about these two.

00:03:28.040 Bishop Martin, now, it was Reverend Martin at the time, First Lady Donna Martin,

00:03:31.260 and spearheaded this amazing thing in this little corner of East Texas.

00:03:35.520 They inspired 22 families to begin to adopt kids out of the foster system with them.

00:03:42.100 This was in the sort of late 90s, and ended up, at the end of the day,

00:03:46.200 the community adopted 77 kids between them, and they asked for the kids that nobody wanted.

00:03:52.960 So, it was a really specific, you know, goal in that.

00:03:57.080 So, we, my wife, Rebecca, and I wrote this and produced it,

00:04:01.760 and we heard about this story, and she's working in the child welfare space in Los Angeles,

00:04:07.360 doing a lot of work with churches, trying to get them more involved in caring for these kids.

00:04:12.720 And so, she came across you at a, I think she was looking for a speaker for Bishop Martin to join her,

00:04:20.200 and they connected, and long story short, we just hit it off and felt like something about this story just gripped us.

00:04:27.520 We felt like it needed to be made.

00:04:30.980 So, we sort of shifted away from some other things that were happening and began developing that.

00:04:36.480 So, what, you mentioned that there was something about the story that struck you,

00:04:41.080 and it struck you hard enough to divert you from the path you were already on.

00:04:45.500 So, what do you think it was, what did you pick up, do you think, you and your wife that had that effect on you?

00:04:52.140 I mean, for me, it was hearing these kids' stories.

00:04:56.280 I mean, I started reading about the actual kids and what they had gone through.

00:04:59.560 And backing up just a little bit, you know, we had adopted two of our kids,

00:05:02.620 and so we had personal experience in this whole thing and cared a lot about it.

00:05:07.800 And we also started to connect what was happening to these kids, the breakdown of the family,

00:05:14.280 that crisis, and how it sort of impacts our communities, and all of these things were coming together.

00:05:19.840 But I remember reading about these kids, Terry especially, what she lived through,

00:05:24.340 and I was like, we've got to tell people about this.

00:05:29.140 How old were your kids when you adopted them?

00:05:32.160 One was about six, almost six, and then almost two.

00:05:36.040 Okay, so you had some personal experience with this that was direct,

00:05:40.300 and the stories themselves touched you, but you also felt that, I mean, it's a difficult thing to understand

00:05:49.520 how creative inspiration comes about, right?

00:05:52.140 It is something like a bunch of things coming together.

00:05:55.080 But you also said you thought that it struck to the heart in a personal way

00:05:59.880 of one of the major problems that's facing our society, which is obviously the breakdown of the family.

00:06:07.480 And that's a catastrophe, and it's a catastrophe that particularly affects the poor,

00:06:12.940 because the rich still are married and have intact families.

00:06:16.320 And so you could feel all of that coming together.

00:06:18.700 Sir, you started talking about this to your congregation a long time ago.

00:06:25.500 How long ago now?

00:06:27.080 It was back in probably in the 90s, late 90s, so it had been quite some time ago.

00:06:33.160 Okay, so tell us about the town that you're working in,

00:06:37.880 so that everybody has a sense of the place.

00:06:39.980 But also, maybe you could explain why this particular issue touched you

00:06:45.660 and why you felt it was necessary to bring it to the—

00:06:48.060 That could go to Donna, too.

00:06:49.740 Absolutely, absolutely.

00:06:51.500 You're both welcome to chime in.

00:06:54.360 Why you think that particular problem became the focus of your attention

00:07:00.240 in your work in your church?

00:07:04.140 She'd do the first part, and I'd do the second part.

00:07:06.760 You could tell her why, and then I'd know tell her why it was happening.

00:07:09.700 Okay.

00:07:09.960 Well, back in 97, from the 90s, yeah, 97, the loss of my mother.

00:07:17.200 My mother passed away in February.

00:07:21.460 And a couple of months after her death, I began to, if you will, be depressed.

00:07:28.620 You know, I call it a silent depression,

00:07:31.860 because when I was around other people, I was happy and jolly

00:07:34.900 and, you know, doing the work of the Lord and putting on the First Lady face

00:07:38.800 and just meeting everybody's needs, but as a pastor's wife.

00:07:43.400 And so when I would be alone by myself at the house,

00:07:47.180 my husband off to work, he was selling insurance at that time.

00:07:51.040 And then through the service of my mother, we were in a really old church,

00:07:56.600 and this is the church that I grew up in as a child.

00:07:59.000 And the floor, it was, that church probably would seat maybe 175 people.

00:08:07.560 So it was probably 500 folks packed in that church that day.

00:08:11.800 And that many cars was lined up miles down the street that people was trying to get in.

00:08:17.820 But at the service, the, I heard a, at that time I heard a pop.

00:08:24.060 I didn't know what it was, but it was the, I thought it was a pew.

00:08:27.460 And actually it was the wall came from the, you know, the floor came from the wall.

00:08:33.300 And so he was in the process after that of, you know,

00:08:36.860 trying to find people to help donate and build us a church.

00:08:42.420 We only had $500 in the building fund.

00:08:46.740 And he's selling insurance.

00:08:49.040 So he's busy.

00:08:50.740 He's selling insurance.

00:08:51.960 He's got to make his routes.

00:08:53.740 He's got to try to find some good heavenly peoples who will help us restructure a building.

00:09:02.280 He was just overwhelmed.

00:09:05.060 And I was there at the house after getting my kids off to school.

00:09:09.640 A couple of months of just crying out to the Lord silently.

00:09:14.320 Then it was nights he would come in after work.

00:09:16.180 I would share with him and I would get so angry when he would tell me,

00:09:20.120 Donna, I understand how you feel.

00:09:22.060 It would make me so angry.

00:09:23.640 It's like, how can you understand how I feel?

00:09:26.040 You know, he lost his mother when he was young, but I would get angry.

00:09:30.180 And just after telling the Lord a couple of months,

00:09:33.900 Lord, no child should lose a mother.

00:09:35.840 I am 36 years old, but I'm saying to the Lord, no child should lose a mother.

00:09:42.580 So this particular day, I got the kids off to school.

00:09:45.740 He's off to work.

00:09:47.020 I'm doing my dishes.

00:09:48.300 And that pain that I've had in my heart, in my chest, it was like a heart and the rounded was just burning fire, aching, burning fire.

00:10:02.100 And so I said, as I was beginning to do my dishes, I said, okay, God, today is today.

00:10:08.620 Either you heal me or let me die.

00:10:11.200 Literally, I thought he was going to come home and find me right there at the floor.

00:10:15.820 So you were experiencing physical pain as well associated with your grief?

00:10:19.740 It was all physical.

00:10:21.300 It was grief.

00:10:22.140 It was in every emotion of being of my body, mind, spirit, soul.

00:10:28.220 Again, now when I'm with the church and with God's peoples, I am just, I'm on point.

00:10:33.600 I'm on target.

00:10:34.900 And that's why I said it's silent.

00:10:36.680 You know, it's a silent pain.

00:10:39.300 And so.

00:10:39.980 Why do you think, why do you think, I'm sure this is related in some manner.

00:10:44.520 Why do you think that you were angry with your husband for his presumption that he understood?

00:10:51.600 Were you feeling, I mean, it sounds like most of the time you were feeling pain and isolation.

00:10:56.540 So it would have been perhaps hard for him even to see that.

00:10:59.860 But do you have any sense of why, were you angry about the fact of your mother's death?

00:11:05.780 The fact that she was taken away?

00:11:07.100 Did you feel that that was not just?

00:11:07.600 I was not angry about that.

00:11:10.100 I was angry about the pain and the hurt.

00:11:13.060 It was like, no one could connect to that.

00:11:16.700 You know, I never felt the connection from anyone.

00:11:21.460 I see.

00:11:21.780 So you're feeling isolated.

00:11:23.200 Yes.

00:11:24.040 Right.

00:11:24.460 Yes, if you will.

00:11:25.400 Yes.

00:11:25.860 Right.

00:11:26.500 Right.

00:11:27.760 How do you think people should share their grief?

00:11:30.360 Definitely about, you know, talking about it, expressing it, you know, feeling the comfort.

00:11:37.540 But as I look back over it, it's just, I think that it was a preparation.

00:11:43.260 There was a preparation for me personally to receive the assignment that God had in store.

00:11:53.820 I feel that truly, it really wasn't about me.

00:11:57.220 It was about what he was preparing me, us, the world, the church to do.

00:12:05.420 And I do believe that through pain and suffering come victory.

00:12:11.340 When you suffer through something and you receive that godly assignment, then you can associate

00:12:19.060 that with what you went to or through to get to where you are.

00:12:23.580 Right.

00:12:23.780 That gives you some seriousness.

00:12:25.440 That gave the connection.

00:12:27.680 Yeah.

00:12:27.940 That made the dots no matter what.

00:12:30.440 So when I answered to the Lord and he said back to me, I hurt you.

00:12:36.320 You give back.

00:12:37.560 Think about those children that's out there.

00:12:39.820 And did this happen when you were doing the dishes?

00:12:42.340 You started?

00:12:42.660 This happened.

00:12:43.320 This happened after I said to him, either heal me or let me die.

00:12:49.100 Right.

00:12:50.220 Then a calmness came over me.

00:12:52.220 I don't even remember going out, but I was just moved.

00:12:56.400 It was just the Holy Spirit just moved me from one place to the next on my back porch.

00:13:01.040 So I wonder if that was a consequence of the way you formulated that.

00:13:05.100 You know, you're in a situation where your pain is serious enough so that you're willing

00:13:11.320 to have death come as a relief.

00:13:14.520 Maybe that's the time when people are more likely to be most serious about doing a new

00:13:18.660 thing.

00:13:19.240 I mean, if you're willing to give up your life and die, maybe you're at that point

00:13:22.440 willing to give up your life to do something new.

00:13:24.520 You know, so, yeah, well, it could be that you have to be taken down to the, so when Jonah,

00:13:30.920 for example, when Jonah is called upon to speak, he doesn't really agree to speak until

00:13:37.520 after he's thrown off the boat.

00:13:40.060 That's right.

00:13:40.700 Mostly drowned and then in hell for three days.

00:13:44.320 Right.

00:13:44.620 That's when he decides he's going to do what he's supposed to do.

00:13:47.600 Yes.

00:13:48.140 Right.

00:13:48.480 So it gives him grim seriousness of purpose.

00:13:51.200 Yes.

00:13:51.380 Okay, so you're doing the dishes and what do you realize?

00:13:55.480 As I was saying, I was just moved to the back porch.

00:13:58.520 And when I went and stood on that back porch, calmly, the Holy Spirit plainly spoke to me,

00:14:07.360 said, I've heard you.

00:14:09.140 But think about those children who are out there that do not and did not have what you

00:14:16.060 haven't had in a mother.

00:14:17.820 And grieved, right?

00:14:18.860 So you were informed then that you were fortunate enough at least to have a mother to grieve.

00:14:23.180 Come on now.

00:14:24.340 Come on.

00:14:25.620 Fortunate enough to have something that's called L-O-V-E.

00:14:30.440 Yeah, right.

00:14:31.100 With 21 children, raised with 17, watch this woman nurture every one of us individually

00:14:40.380 and at the same time.

00:14:42.700 Never one time that Myrtle Lee Grisby Cartwright lost her cools.

00:14:49.260 Poor.

00:14:50.020 We were poorer than Lazarus, if you will.

00:14:52.740 We didn't have anything but each other.

00:14:56.520 Love.

00:14:57.520 Family.

00:14:58.340 Genuine love.

00:14:59.480 Unconditional love.

00:15:01.080 And she kept it together.

00:15:03.600 Yeah.

00:15:03.880 So by, you know, stepping out and the Holy Spirit says, give back.

00:15:10.420 Give back.

00:15:11.640 Think about those that didn't have what you had.

00:15:13.700 So my mother passed away two weeks ago, three weeks ago.

00:15:17.920 Sorry.

00:15:18.320 And it was somewhat sudden.

00:15:22.040 We were more worried about my father, actually, than my mother.

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00:17:01.120 And you never know how you're going to react to that, hey?

00:17:07.280 But I was in Las Vegas when I got the news, and I spent the day with memories, you know?

00:17:14.800 And I haven't got one negative memory of my mother.

00:17:21.000 Wow.

00:17:21.300 So, you know, and I've interviewed a lot of people who have done well in their lives and asked them how their interests developed and why they had the confidence in themselves that they had, you know?

00:17:36.840 And they're almost invariably from two parent families.

00:17:40.660 Yeah.

00:17:40.800 And the developmental psychologists know this, too.

00:17:45.820 Like, the love of your mother gives you, it's like an unshakable confidence in your own physical reality, right?

00:17:52.600 And that's sort of instantiated, maybe even in infancy.

00:17:55.500 It's really embodied and really fundamental.

00:17:59.540 Your father can be a figure of great encouragement, which is very nice alignment with that acceptance and love.

00:18:05.400 And so, so you were in, now you said that when you were on the porch that the Holy Spirit spoke to you.

00:18:12.420 And so, how exactly did you experience that?

00:18:15.100 And why did you attribute that to the divine?

00:18:19.520 Like, what was, was it an actual voice?

00:18:21.800 Was it a thought?

00:18:22.740 Was it a feeling?

00:18:23.520 Like, how did that, how did that idea come to you?

00:18:25.740 It was just a calm sense of a voice.

00:18:30.600 I could not have made this up.

00:18:33.840 I would not ever have a thunket, if you will.

00:18:39.840 I know without a doubt.

00:18:41.900 And every time I think on it and speak on it, I know it greater.

00:18:46.820 I know it greater.

00:18:48.440 And I know through all the disappointment, all the pain that the children suffered from,

00:18:57.500 all the hurt, the anxiety, the abuse, the neglection, I knew without a doubt and sitting here even now,

00:19:10.540 right this moment that it wasn't nobody but God who allowed this, who gave this commandment from heaven.

00:19:21.780 And how do you, how do you think you know that?

00:19:25.640 Because we didn't give up.

00:19:27.960 I see.

00:19:28.500 Because no matter how hard it got.

00:19:30.860 You stuck with it.

00:19:31.800 We stuck with it.

00:19:32.880 Yeah.

00:19:33.400 You know, you could tell that story about you and Julian, maybe.

00:19:36.660 Yeah, sure.

00:19:37.920 Okay.

00:19:38.940 So when I was, 2019, I was diagnosed with terminal cancer.

00:19:44.140 Told I had 10 months to live.

00:19:45.880 And Jordan and I were in the doctor's office and I thought, well, you know, my mom and her family all died fairly young.

00:19:52.300 And I guess I'm one of those.

00:19:53.720 And so I just kind of said, okay.

00:19:56.340 And we went home and my son lived nearby with his wife and they came outside and I told my son.

00:20:03.820 I said, so I told him that I was going to die in 10 months.

00:20:07.680 And I, he looked at me, he looked at me and I saw a boy losing his mother.

00:20:14.320 And I thought, oh my goodness.

00:20:16.940 So that love that I had for my son, I saw that reflected back to me, which I had never felt before.

00:20:27.360 And I felt the weight of the world lift off my shoulders.

00:20:31.320 And I felt the Holy Spirit fill my body.

00:20:33.680 And I said to my son, you know what?

00:20:35.300 Those doctors, they have a medical opinion, but only God knows when I'm going to die.

00:20:39.500 And we're just going to go day by day with gratitude.

00:20:42.640 Well, Tammy.

00:20:43.540 That's been the story.

00:20:44.820 Tammy's told me two things about that.

00:20:46.620 I understand.

00:20:47.180 First, you know, the first, and I've thought about it a lot.

00:20:50.840 When she was the mother of young children, one of the things that was quite remarkable while watching her was that

00:20:57.580 she responded to the kids if they were in distress pretty much immediately.

00:21:03.300 So when my daughter was born, Michaela, we lived in a little apartment in Montreal in a poor neighborhood.

00:21:09.420 And I built a bunk bed and I built a crib to go underneath it.

00:21:13.740 And so that's where Michaela slept.

00:21:14.960 And at night, if Michaela, so much as peeped, Tammy was down the ladder and taking care of her.

00:21:22.260 So she never really woke up and cried, but she had that immediate response.

00:21:26.640 She also told me, and this I thought was quite interesting.

00:21:29.440 We took Michaela again up to this little cottage in northern Saskatchewan that we'd gone to every year for 20 years.

00:21:39.800 And most of the people up there are old, you know, over 70.

00:21:43.540 And we took our little kids up there and...

00:21:48.360 It was just Michaela.

00:21:49.380 It was just Michaela at that point.

00:21:50.960 She was jolly jumper age.

00:21:52.180 Yeah.

00:21:52.560 We'd have like 10 old people in the living room of this little cottage and they'd just be watching that baby like she was on fire.

00:22:00.440 You know, and so...

00:22:01.840 And I said to my husband, oh, this is, this is, this is great.

00:22:06.720 I said, all the attention's on that little baby and it has nothing to do with me.

00:22:11.840 This is great.

00:22:12.940 You know?

00:22:13.240 It's easy for people to think that their life should be about them and their status.

00:22:21.640 I mean, them very narrowly and personally in that sort of narcissistic way.

00:22:27.160 But one of the things that you come to understand, and I suspect this is more true for mothers than for fathers,

00:22:32.060 is that your life should be centered on the, on, your life should definitely not be about your narrow needs.

00:22:45.280 Not least because that doesn't work.

00:22:47.520 It's a very unsatisfactory solution.

00:22:49.980 First of all, I don't think that can ever be exhausted.

00:22:52.480 You know, I watch narcissistic celebrities who are constantly dissatisfied no matter what they attain.

00:22:59.540 It's a void that can't be filled.

00:23:01.120 And I think the reason it can't be filled is because the way you fill that void isn't by getting what you want.

00:23:05.900 It's by giving you absolutely what you've lost.

00:23:09.320 That's right.

00:23:09.980 Yeah, yeah.

00:23:10.540 Yeah.

00:23:11.020 So it was it.

00:23:12.020 And then, see, the reason I wanted Tammy to tell that story too, because there's a bit of a parallel there.

00:23:17.940 Because along with that experience, when she saw her devotion to Julian reflected,

00:23:25.600 that showed her that she was of more worth than she thought about herself.

00:23:30.240 But it was also a time when she decided, or very close to the time when she decided that,

00:23:35.800 well, you decided that you were going to turn your life, at least to some degree, in a new direction as well.

00:23:40.520 You said that you were going to, for example, that you'd speak publicly.

00:23:43.720 Well, I had prayed and asked if God would spare me, that I promised her that I would, you know, I would speak.

00:23:53.420 I would speak.

00:23:54.500 And you've kept up that resolve.

00:23:56.840 That's right.

00:23:57.740 That's been definitely put into action.

00:24:00.420 She actually found out she was good at it too.

00:24:02.640 Well, I liked it anyway.

00:24:04.560 When he steps in.

00:24:06.460 Yeah.

00:24:07.000 He gives you the ability to do what you could not do without him.

00:24:12.920 So what have you found that you could do?

00:24:15.160 All things through Christ who gives me strength.

00:24:18.820 Yeah.

00:24:19.180 Very good.

00:24:20.020 So be specific.

00:24:21.080 What have you been engaged in because of the decisions that you've made that wouldn't have come your way otherwise?

00:24:27.120 Just obedient, just, I mean, sharing the message, I mean, teaching the world or even myself how, what high important family is.

00:24:37.520 And no matter what, you do not erupt that.

00:24:41.760 You know, you keep it together to whatever degree it takes.

00:24:47.500 So how did you torture your husband into paying attention to what you had to say?

00:24:52.640 He figured out that God speaks to women also.

00:24:55.500 Uh-huh.

00:24:57.120 I like what you did.

00:25:01.020 Thank you.

00:25:01.860 Thank you.

00:25:02.460 Thank you.

00:25:02.840 So, okay.

00:25:03.420 So maybe you could pick it up from there.

00:25:05.040 What happened?

00:25:05.660 What happened after?

00:25:06.520 Now, you were working as an insurance salesman and as a pastor.

00:25:10.300 Right.

00:25:10.680 And you were working in this little church that needed some work, to say the least.

00:25:14.000 Oh, I needed a church.

00:25:15.100 Yeah.

00:25:15.280 Okay.

00:25:16.080 Okay.

00:25:16.780 So pick up the story there.

00:25:18.340 Tell us a bit of background about your work and then your religious work.

00:25:22.660 How did you come to be a pastor?

00:25:24.020 Well, all before then, before I even met her, I used to sing with my brother.

00:25:32.180 I got nine brothers and one sister.

00:25:34.400 And we organized a group called the Martin Brothers.

00:25:37.560 And we were singing all over the country.

00:25:39.720 And one particular Saturday night, we went to Possum Trot, where her church is at.

00:25:46.540 And we had to be there that Saturday night and that Sunday evening.

00:25:48.980 That Sunday evening, I saw her walk through the door.

00:25:50.740 And I said, that's going to be in my eyes right there.

00:25:52.760 Now, I laid claim on her.

00:25:54.800 And then the Lord brought it together.

00:25:57.040 I had no idea.

00:25:58.560 If I would have known, the Lord would not allow me to know that because it would have been no, no, no.

00:26:06.260 You know, so, you know, when I started in the ministry, I wasn't looking to do anything, but just, in fact, I didn't want to preach.

00:26:15.760 I didn't want to do that at all.

00:26:16.920 That wasn't something I made choice of.

00:26:19.600 He made choice of it.

00:26:21.200 Then the Lord, I ended up passing the church that I got married in.

00:26:24.740 And when that came to me, when she came to me about the adoption part of me, see, one thing that you all need to understand, that my biological son, he was born with severe brain damage.

00:26:35.940 And that constituted, were teaching us about patience.

00:26:40.500 And I think that God had a program in mind, something in mind all the time.

00:26:45.400 Because through my son, with his problem that he had, we learned how to be patient.

00:26:50.640 Because you got to be very, very patient with him.

00:26:52.820 You can't take him fast.

00:26:53.880 You got to be real slow with him.

00:26:55.740 And you got to do things over and over and over before he get it.

00:26:59.820 But once he get it, he got it.

00:27:01.460 So when she came to me with the program, I didn't want to do it because I was thinking about him and what I had to do with him.

00:27:08.920 And then all the rest of the responsibilities that I had.

00:27:12.380 But then again, I began to feel that this is a movement of God.

00:27:16.660 So I joined in.

00:27:17.740 I joined in.

00:27:18.440 I went to some of the pride classes.

00:27:20.280 Couldn't go to all of them.

00:27:21.000 In Texas, they got what they call pride classes.

00:27:23.360 That's where CPS teach you how to deal with children with multiple problems.

00:27:26.860 And when we got started in it and brought, got the first two, we got one boy who came in before we got our two.

00:27:37.080 His name was Nino.

00:27:38.180 Her sister got him.

00:27:41.320 And after he came in, then we got Tyler and Mercedes.

00:27:45.780 And when we got Tyler and Mercedes, then some of the members started asking, you know, how did y'all do that?

00:27:50.500 What y'all do?

00:27:51.880 How did y'all do all of that?

00:27:52.900 So what I done, they wanted to do it, but they didn't want to do it.

00:27:57.920 Because we had to drive 120 miles round trip, you know, from our church to go to take the classes.

00:28:04.560 And I went to the state and asked them about it.

00:28:07.560 So they told me, said, well, if you can find eight families that was willing to adopt, we would teach the classes at the church.

00:28:14.520 Oh, yeah.

00:28:15.540 And then she said eight families, but I found 13 the first time.

00:28:19.600 13 families.

00:28:20.480 From within your church?

00:28:21.500 Within the church, you know, that wanted to sign up and go through the process of learning about adoption.

00:28:27.100 And after we did them, I began to realize that adoption itself was not something that man came up with.

00:28:35.700 It wasn't a man-made idea.

00:28:36.880 It was a God idea in the beginning.

00:28:38.740 Because the only way we was able to get back to God was through adoption.

00:28:43.040 And if you read Ephesians 1, I think around that fourth and fifth verse, it will explain it to you that it was God's good pleasure to bring us back to him through his son Jesus through adoption.

00:28:54.020 So that was the only way we was able to get back to God.

00:28:56.120 So adoption was something.

00:28:57.600 And then on top of that, adoption was something that started in the Bible years ago.

00:29:01.920 And Moses wasn't an adopted child because Moses was not, he wasn't, Moses' daddy and no lord, but he was raised in Pharaoh's home.

00:29:10.680 And a lot of people don't agree with it, but I do.

00:29:13.060 Jesus wasn't an adopted child.

00:29:14.520 Because if you look at it closely, Joseph was not his biological father.

00:29:19.240 He was one that, he didn't plant the seed for Jesus.

00:29:22.480 When the angel spoke to Joseph, he told him, he said, Joseph, he said, don't be afraid to take Mary as your lawful red and white.

00:29:28.640 That she's caring is holy.

00:29:30.140 So she was already pregnant when she got married.

00:29:32.380 So he was, she was not, but he told Joseph to raise him, teach him, and learn him.

00:29:37.820 That's why they related to Jesus as the carpenter's son.

00:29:41.580 And if you read in there, in 1 Matthew, Mark, it explained all that to you.

00:29:45.600 So once I began to let the church know the importance of adoption and why we should be doing this and why it's God saying that we do this, they began to really get involved.

00:29:57.500 We was not looking for no publicity.

00:30:00.200 We were not looking for no, for none of this.

00:30:02.780 I mean, all of this was something we just done because I always figured that people take care of their children.

00:30:08.080 Because anything, and a lot of us can say right now, well, something happened to my mom, my grandmama raised me, my auntie raised me.

00:30:15.600 So I always, it was an adoption, but it's not a formal adoption.

00:30:18.820 It was an informal thing that when something happened to mama, adoption was gone because mama or your grandmama or your auntie or somebody came in.

00:30:26.980 But once we learned and once we got it into existence, now it's a more formal thing that you got to go through all of this and go through that and go through that to adopt a child.

00:30:37.060 But for the most part, it was not something that man, this was God's idea to get us back to him.

00:30:42.600 And I feel like this, that we've all been adopted.

00:30:45.240 Every one of us who is a child of God has been adopted.

00:30:49.380 So you said, there's a couple of things that you said in there that really struck me as worth delving into further.

00:30:55.560 So you said that you have, you already had a fairly heavy responsibility with your son.

00:31:02.380 And so you were leery about taking on additional responsibility, partly because you knew how difficult it would be, and partly because you were already occupied.

00:31:12.240 Okay, so why did you decide to take on the additional responsibility, given that?

00:31:18.760 And how did you come to that decision?

00:31:21.280 It came to a somewhere you can't help it.

00:31:23.620 But, you know, it wasn't when I felt like that this was something that God was doing, not knowing the outcome of it, but just doing what God should do.

00:31:37.320 And when we do things like that, we may not see what's beyond the corner.

00:31:42.800 But if we obey God and do what he said, he will reveal to us through process of time.

00:31:48.580 Okay, so let me ask you a question about that.

00:31:51.040 I mean, people have ideas and notions all the time, and some of them aren't very bright.

00:31:58.160 And so how do you personally, both of you for that matter, how do you decide when, you know, you're supposed to discern the spirits to see if they're of God, right?

00:32:07.660 So, okay, so now you've had a calling that occurred to you while you were doing the dishes and on the back porch in the aftermath of the death of your wife.

00:32:15.560 And now you're contemplating the death of your mother, sorry.

00:32:18.800 And now you're contemplating this major...

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00:33:28.860 Adoption of this major responsibility, and you regarded that as a calling from God, a divine calling.

00:33:37.620 How do you distinguish good ideas in that regard personally from bad ideas?

00:33:43.920 Because the Spirit of the Lord would lead you and guide you through all things.

00:33:50.000 One thing I do know by God, He does not give vision without provision.

00:33:53.860 Provision, if God puts something before you, He's going to give you direction.

00:34:01.100 If you look at it, even Noah himself, when he called Noah to build that ark, he gave Noah pacific response, how to build it, decide what he was going to do, two levels, and what he was going to do.

00:34:15.620 He gave him pacific instruction.

00:34:18.280 And this is what God does today.

00:34:19.760 He just don't say, look, I'm going to do this.

00:34:21.900 When Moses got ready to lead the children of God, he told him what to do, how to do it, and when to do it.

00:34:27.740 So the Spirit of the Lord is so active that it will lead you and guide you through all things.

00:34:34.040 A lot of times, we make the mistake because we try to do it our way.

00:34:38.220 This is when we get off course.

00:34:40.000 But long as you stay in that realm with the Spirit of the Lord, He's going to take you where He wants you to go.

00:34:45.340 How do you stay in that realm?

00:34:48.500 Obedience.

00:34:48.900 Because when God speaks, you obey His Word.

00:34:51.880 If God said go, you go.

00:34:53.840 If God says stop, you stop.

00:34:55.840 And if you notice why Moses then was even out there in the wilderness, there was a whole lot of disobedience going on.

00:35:01.820 And because of that, God, there were some problems going on out there.

00:35:06.000 But any time that God is working and showing you and telling you what to do, He's going to direct your path.

00:35:13.760 I think it's in Proverbs, and maybe the fifth chapter talking about, He said, trust in the Lord and do God.

00:35:19.580 He said, and He shall direct your path.

00:35:22.960 If we had let the Lord direct our path, we would do a whole lot better to be successful at what we're doing.

00:35:29.920 So I've been trying to think that through psychologically.

00:35:33.580 And so part of the reason that we think, obviously, or that we can see our way forward is so that we can get to where we're going.

00:35:43.200 And so thought is an aid to movement forward.

00:35:46.140 Now, thoughts come to you.

00:35:49.940 And so then you might ask, well, how do you ensure that the best possible thoughts come to you?

00:35:55.580 And it has to be, it's something like what Christ recommends to His listeners on the Sermon on the Mount.

00:36:03.080 He basically says, with regard to prayer, that you should aim at the highest good that you can conceive of, right?

00:36:10.400 And then you should then attempt to treat other people as if they have the same value as you.

00:36:15.280 So that's the frame.

00:36:16.880 That's your aim.

00:36:17.940 And then what comes to you is going to have as its source the provision of that aim, right?

00:36:24.460 Then it'll be reliable.

00:36:25.340 Now, your additional point was if you do that, then the things that you need will come to you along the way.

00:36:33.800 How did that, now your sister, your sister was the first one who adopted?

00:36:37.860 Yes, sir.

00:36:38.180 Okay, now why was, how did she come to play that role?

00:36:41.440 Well, because actually after the Holy Spirit spoke to me, I'm always one to say, God, I need confirmation, you know, in the form of man.

00:36:52.480 Because if you work through me, then I don't have to spend a year trying to explain it to somebody else that you said it.

00:36:58.380 Because he said we should know, try the Spirit by the Spirit and you'll know that it is of the Spirit.

00:37:02.400 So when I spoke to my husband about it within his busy time of serving the Lord and his calling, I didn't get that sense of peace.

00:37:14.940 Oh, yeah.

00:37:15.820 Okay.

00:37:16.140 So I called my sister.

00:37:18.720 She's at work.

00:37:20.140 She happened to be on break.

00:37:22.340 And I said, Diane, the Lord has said this to me.

00:37:29.480 And I tell her where he's at.

00:37:32.120 Think about those children that's out there that did not have what you had in a mother.

00:37:36.680 Give back.

00:37:37.860 Foster and adopt.

00:37:38.740 I said that to her and she says, First Lady, if God said it, we can do it.

00:37:49.040 It just warmed my heart.

00:37:51.680 She came over after work and I began to explain to her.

00:37:56.680 And at first she goes, girl, you crazy.

00:37:59.460 But she was saying like, you're crazy to attack this like this.

00:38:03.300 You know, she's like, you sold out already.

00:38:05.580 And we just went from there.

00:38:09.220 We just went from there because.

00:38:11.000 So why do you think your sister was so responsive to what you said?

00:38:14.920 Was it how you said her?

00:38:15.720 Because we had the same thing.

00:38:17.960 We grew up.

00:38:19.180 Oh, yes.

00:38:19.780 I see.

00:38:20.260 I see.

00:38:20.760 I see.

00:38:21.260 Connection.

00:38:21.840 Right.

00:38:22.180 The same love.

00:38:23.860 The same nerve.

00:38:24.860 Okay.

00:38:25.180 Now, so she adopted the first child.

00:38:27.220 Did she take these courses?

00:38:28.580 Did she have.

00:38:29.320 Right along with us.

00:38:30.800 Right along with us.

00:38:31.560 Because when I call for the CPS for the classes, right?

00:38:37.200 And they said to me, Mrs. Martin, you're the last person that can get in these classes.

00:38:43.240 It's the first time we ever had a full class.

00:38:47.760 It is shut down.

00:38:49.600 Then here I go again because I done already talked to Diane and I go back to the Lord.

00:38:54.460 I say, okay, God, I know this is you.

00:38:56.940 So what I'm going to need you to do, because these folks are saying I can't bring anybody else in.

00:39:01.880 And if this really you, I'm going to need you to open up this door.

00:39:06.720 So the lady says, I call her back and I says, I really need to bring my sister.

00:39:12.080 And she says to me, well, Mrs. Martin, as I already stated, that the classes are full and it's shut out.

00:39:18.880 But bring her on and let us see.

00:39:23.200 They may ask her to leave, but all down in my spirit, I already knew that she would be there.

00:39:32.080 We went to the class.

00:39:33.500 Nobody said nothing from that day to this one.

00:39:35.940 It's God.

00:39:36.860 Now, had you decided at that point as well to adopt or were you and your sister just investigating it?

00:39:42.700 No, sir.

00:39:43.320 I knew.

00:39:44.380 You knew.

00:39:45.020 I knew.

00:39:45.980 I say foster because you know that you can't just go into like the system,

00:39:51.000 the foster system adopted.

00:39:53.100 You have to have that six month period of fostering and then you're eligible for adoption.

00:39:59.620 But I knew that I was not going to be a foster parent.

00:40:04.360 I knew that the children that were coming to our home was there to stay.

00:40:09.860 How do I know that?

00:40:11.960 I just know it by the spirit.

00:40:14.340 You can't explain the spirit.

00:40:16.460 You just know.

00:40:17.260 It's just something on the inside of you that you know that caused you to live, move, and breathe.

00:40:24.680 I just knew.

00:40:26.700 And today, I know.

00:40:30.620 So when Moses encounters the burning bush, right, the voice of God speaks to him because of his diligent investigation.

00:40:40.680 Eventually, it's the voice of God that speaks to him.

00:40:43.140 And it speaks to him in a very particular way, right?

00:40:45.380 Because it demands something of him.

00:40:47.600 It says that he has to stand up against tyranny and he has to be a leader of his people away from slavery.

00:40:54.800 And he says, well, no one will listen to me because I'm slow of tongue.

00:40:59.440 And God says, find your brother.

00:41:02.540 That's very similar to what you did because your brother has talents you don't.

00:41:06.560 But he also said, if you tell people that I sent you, they'll listen.

00:41:11.640 And so I've thought a lot about that because, you know, there are people who talk to you and your attention wanders.

00:41:17.920 You can barely pay attention to them, barely listen to them.

00:41:21.220 Other things crowd your imagination and call to you.

00:41:24.920 But now and then you meet someone and you listen to them and you're convinced that at least that they are convinced of the truth of what they say.

00:41:35.220 And their voice is much more compelling.

00:41:39.420 And so it seems that that's what's portrayed in the description of Moses going to speak to the Pharaoh and the Israelites, right?

00:41:48.260 He comes away from this encounter and the manner in which he communicates is convincing.

00:41:52.860 And you see the same thing portrayed in the stories of Christ, right?

00:41:56.500 Because continually when he's preaching, the writers of the Gospels note that he speaks in a manner that's different than the scribes and the Pharisees and the lawyers with direct authority, right?

00:42:10.380 And that's that sort of compelling voice that overcomes obstacles.

00:42:14.220 And it is what unites people in their resolve, which is what you said happened to you.

00:42:19.060 But that can be transferred to the community.

00:42:21.120 Okay, so now you're with your sister and you're with Childhood Protection Services and you're taking these courses.

00:42:29.260 And are you on board by this point?

00:42:31.260 Are you still wondering what's going on?

00:42:33.820 I think I got on board about middle ways, the classes.

00:42:38.040 I think there were like 16 weeks and I had got on board right about the middle because I didn't have the time, no way to do that.

00:42:45.140 And when I was taking the class, I think I still missed a couple of them because of prior duties, you know.

00:42:52.400 So were you going to the classes together at that time?

00:42:54.600 Some of them.

00:42:55.360 Some of them.

00:42:56.020 Right.

00:42:56.240 I would teach him, I would inform him of what I'd gone through, what we were taught in the class once I got home.

00:43:05.260 And little did he not know, he was already on board because he knew that when I stick my hand on something, I'm not getting it.

00:43:18.680 And it's not that many things, you know, that I do, but what I do, I do it.

00:43:25.400 Yeah, well, that's a good thing to point out though too, you know, is that you can maybe get what you need and want if you don't ask for too much all the time, right?

00:43:33.840 Because then people know when you're serious and when you're not.

00:43:36.160 That's a very useful thing to know in marriage.

00:43:39.040 It's also a useful thing to know in your relationship with your children.

00:43:42.540 It's like, you don't have to say no that often, but when you say it, you should mean it, right?

00:43:49.300 Same with yes.

00:43:50.960 Yeah.

00:43:51.540 Okay, so you're, and what, so what's going through your mind while this plan is starting to take shape?

00:43:57.720 I mean.

00:43:58.420 Well, I didn't really, I didn't really focus on it at that point.

00:44:03.140 But then at some point in time, I felt that, that this was something that God was doing, not knowing the outcome, not knowing why, you know, so I got on board.

00:44:17.000 And when I got on board, you know, I began to just, you know, to go with it and follow through it.

00:44:23.200 And, and, and, and, and, and children just continued to come because I had to go back after they finished one class set of them.

00:44:31.520 I had to go back with another group and present them to the state.

00:44:35.840 Another group of your parishioners.

00:44:36.940 Another group, that's right, another group.

00:44:38.320 And, and, and, uh, that's how they came up with the 22 families.

00:44:41.020 Okay, so, so why did, okay, so you, you and your sister adopted.

00:44:46.020 And so why did the parishioners start to become interested in this, do you think?

00:44:50.980 Because I started telling them what the Word of God said about adoption.

00:44:55.960 That's how they got on board.

00:44:57.260 We began to preach.

00:44:57.640 Yeah, but why did they listen?

00:44:59.360 Because I'm the preacher and I'm the pastor.

00:45:01.420 The Bible says this, faith come by hearing, hearing by the Word of God.

00:45:05.720 And how can they hear without the preacher?

00:45:07.840 So they got to understand that when God gives the message to the preacher, it's not for him, it's for them.

00:45:14.820 Right, and they believe that.

00:45:16.220 Well, they believe it or not.

00:45:17.260 It's still for them because everybody you preach to, because Jesus himself said that everybody that said, Lord, Lord, is not going in.

00:45:23.340 Yeah, right.

00:45:23.900 So whether they believe it or not, it's still His Word.

00:45:26.780 It's not going to, not going to change.

00:45:28.860 But one thing I love about God's Word is that He said He's standing watch over His Word.

00:45:33.180 And whatever He sent His Word out to do, it will accomplish what He sent out to do.

00:45:37.460 So His Word was sent out for that little church down in those woods to start this movement.

00:45:43.600 And it was accompanied because the Spirit of the Lord was there as a pusher to make sure that we cover the ground that the Lord laid out to Him.

00:45:51.960 And to say it was a picnic, no, no, no, no, no, no.

00:45:55.640 It was not no picnic.

00:45:57.400 It was hard.

00:45:58.600 It was tough.

00:45:59.960 You had to do a lot of things.

00:46:01.640 They changed your whole life up, your whole demeanor of life.

00:46:06.600 Now, you've got one child already that you've got a problem with.

00:46:10.640 Now, you've been to invite other problems in.

00:46:13.540 It's just not an ordinary thing.

00:46:15.840 That's for sure.

00:46:16.880 That's why everybody can't adopt.

00:46:17.900 But everybody can be a part of adoption because you just can't do it.

00:46:22.180 You've got to have a mind.

00:46:24.060 You've got to have a mind of patience.

00:46:26.020 You have to understand and try to put yourself in a life or a child that never had anybody to say, I love you.

00:46:34.280 Nobody to ever say, I hug, give me a hug.

00:46:36.960 Never had a mother and a father because they're in the system.

00:46:39.800 So what do they know?

00:46:40.400 You've got babies in the system.

00:46:41.980 So what they know about a mother and father?

00:46:44.080 They don't know until somebody teach them or show them what it's all about.

00:46:48.100 So it's a big responsibility.

00:46:50.000 That's why everybody can't do it.

00:46:51.560 And God has special peoples to carry this out.

00:46:56.020 So, you know, when I first came across the film and the idea as a clinician who's dealt with very difficult families,

00:47:05.240 you know, one of my concerns was fools rush in where angels fear to tread, right?

00:47:11.300 This is a very difficult thing to ask of people or of yourself to bring someone, a damaged child into your household.

00:47:19.040 Especially, as you pointed out, when people already have a fair number of problems to take care of their own.

00:47:26.200 And so it's a relief.

00:47:27.540 Well, to know, for example, that, you know, you had a child who required additional care to begin with.

00:47:34.340 So you already knew about this.

00:47:35.560 So you were obviously approaching this in a manner that was very realistic.

00:47:39.260 You know, because people can be very naive and foolish about their do-gooding.

00:47:42.740 And then they cause a lot more trouble than good.

00:47:46.000 So, Josh, or maybe you could comment on this, too.

00:47:50.440 How did you handle the problems of the difficulties?

00:47:55.800 And how did you strive to make that realistic?

00:48:01.320 Well, I think one thing to keep in mind is this was much more than a movie to us.

00:48:08.600 And it was that first for me.

00:48:10.300 Like, I feel like it has to be a movie first if you're going to make a movie.

00:48:14.560 I think a lot of mistakes are made when it's not that.

00:48:17.280 That's the mistake of the propagandist.

00:48:19.500 Exactly.

00:48:20.040 It's a sin, not just a mistake.

00:48:22.000 And then the person who just wants to get a message across.

00:48:24.420 So we knew that was important.

00:48:26.040 It was important to us personally.

00:48:27.740 But, you know, one of the things about this community that I think is important,

00:48:34.060 and you've been teasing this out, is how do you arrive at this decision?

00:48:38.600 Why do you do this?

00:48:39.640 You know, we think about that because we want people to respond, as we have.

00:48:43.760 And I think, on one hand, we, you know, we talk ourselves out of what we ought to do all the time.

00:48:52.000 And it's important to look at something and assess it and figure out, can I manage this?

00:48:59.380 But I think...

00:49:00.320 We usually talk ourselves out of things by avoiding doing that, right?

00:49:05.160 Because part of what you discover, if a problem's being set in front of you, is if you actually think it through.

00:49:13.560 It's amazing.

00:49:14.540 It was amazing to me as a clinician to watch how terrified people were of thinking.

00:49:19.200 It was as if they believed that if they dared to think the worst, the worst would happen.

00:49:24.700 But actually, what happens is that if you investigate something, like Moses investigated the burning bush, you find your way.

00:49:33.660 And the dragons that you imagine to be capable of eating you are cut down to size rapidly.

00:49:40.880 And the preparation for it, too.

00:49:42.300 So it's like this balance of not wanting to scare yourself out of the situation because of all the obvious problems that's going to be presented to you.

00:49:50.000 But when you know what to expect, it's a huge advantage, I think.

00:49:55.640 You know, we didn't know a lot of what to expect when we adopted our first two.

00:49:59.300 We responded out of the need, out of compassion, out of being compelled.

00:50:03.540 But it's, you know, it's that balance.

00:50:06.160 We felt like when we were telling this story, we want people to know about what this really is.

00:50:10.700 Because it can just be compassion.

00:50:12.740 And that's not enough.

00:50:13.940 You've got to understand what you're going to show up against.

00:50:16.160 I think that's the sin of Eve, thoughtless compassion, right?

00:50:21.440 Because she clutches the serpent to her breast and presumes she can do it, right?

00:50:26.900 Pridefully.

00:50:27.880 There is the way to a fall.

00:50:30.080 And then her husband says, anything you want, dear, which is his sin, right?

00:50:35.560 And many do that.

00:50:36.900 I mean, if you think about it, when you're alone or when there's only a few of you and you're trying to manage all of what this means,

00:50:44.820 it's most people fall out.

00:50:47.660 Most people give up.

00:50:49.140 And we knew about that.

00:50:51.060 And we faced our own battles.

00:50:52.880 And so we felt partly we want people to understand what this whole world is.

00:50:56.440 We want them to be aware of it.

00:50:58.160 It's, on one hand, this is an unavoidable problem.

00:51:01.280 Like, we have to deal with this.

00:51:03.320 Children are in need.

00:51:04.820 We are compelled as humans, and especially as followers of Jesus, to get involved in that.

00:51:09.560 And so, how do we make this most doable when we tell this story?

00:51:15.740 Well, let's be honest.

00:51:17.240 This is what's going on in these kids' lives.

00:51:19.800 Let's be real about it.

00:51:21.500 Let's not go so deep and real that it's disturbing and, you know, you scare people away because of that.

00:51:26.540 But we want people to understand what they're getting into.

00:51:28.460 We felt like we needed that when we look back.

00:51:31.080 If we had known a little bit more, maybe we wouldn't be freaking out in those moments.

00:51:35.520 We had been prepared for it.

00:51:37.360 So, it's that balance of obedience and just responding to an emergency and then a thoughtful approach that gives it more security and longevity.

00:51:48.120 And I see that in that community, you know.

00:51:50.080 So, okay.

00:51:50.600 So, two questions from that.

00:51:52.220 The first is, when you and your wife adopted, in the story of the unfolding of the biblical heroes,

00:52:03.280 what happens continually is that a new opportunity and challenge is placed in front of them.

00:52:10.460 They make the appropriate sacrifice and their character expands, right?

00:52:14.140 And if that happens enough, they literally turn into new people.

00:52:18.300 Right.

00:52:18.420 So, Abraham becomes Abraham and Jacob becomes Israel.

00:52:21.860 You change so much that you're no longer the same person.

00:52:24.340 Now, you and your wife adopted, and that's an overwhelming responsibility.

00:52:30.480 So, what did that change for you and for her, and what did it change in your marriage?

00:52:36.320 Thank you.

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00:53:52.060 You come together, or probably either you're pulled apart or you come together.

00:54:03.360 We came together.

00:54:04.660 How?

00:54:05.180 We needed each other in ways that we never felt before.

00:54:09.300 Right, right.

00:54:09.820 You know, you're taking care of a child you know very little about.

00:54:12.820 You don't know exactly what they experienced.

00:54:14.800 And they don't know how to articulate that.

00:54:16.620 So they're just living and acting.

00:54:19.520 And you're trying to deal with that.

00:54:21.500 So for us, it was a coming together, praying through this,

00:54:26.380 the what have we done moments, the oh wow, this is amazing moments.

00:54:29.960 And so it was a coming together for us.

00:54:33.000 And it was one of the main things.

00:54:35.200 So that means the adopted challenge like that, there's a peril and a promise.

00:54:39.180 And the peril is couples often divorce if they have a child that dies.

00:54:44.360 Right?

00:54:44.940 It's a very common cause of divorce.

00:54:47.080 And so you can see that in a moment of peril, everything could be lost.

00:54:51.900 Or something great could be gained.

00:54:54.300 Right?

00:54:54.960 Right?

00:54:55.340 And I think that, so that level of responsibility helps.

00:55:00.240 Like you feel God is with you.

00:55:02.240 You know, I can't speak about this in any other way.

00:55:05.600 That's how we experienced it.

00:55:06.780 We felt God is with us.

00:55:09.220 And because of that, we can do this somehow.

00:55:12.140 And there's something.

00:55:12.820 Why did the two of you feel that, do you think?

00:55:15.180 Well, there's.

00:55:15.820 As opposed to being pulled apart.

00:55:18.560 Okay.

00:55:19.720 I think because we had that kind of relationship.

00:55:22.760 We were friends.

00:55:23.620 It's just the way we have always been.

00:55:26.080 You know, we are, we're close.

00:55:28.040 We share a lot.

00:55:29.800 We're the type that communicate a lot together.

00:55:31.680 Like we just, we don't sort of have our own lives.

00:55:34.240 We are together.

00:55:35.040 And that's why we work together so well.

00:55:36.420 It's because it was just a natural thing.

00:55:37.440 Right, because you and your wife wrote this.

00:55:39.480 Yeah.

00:55:39.980 So it's just kind of probably the nature of our relationship.

00:55:44.120 What do you do right to make that relationship have that quality?

00:55:48.520 We give room for the other's strength, I think, in a lot of ways.

00:55:53.400 When it comes to the creative part, especially, you know, it's recognizing that's actually a void in me.

00:55:59.040 She's feeling that void.

00:56:00.360 I need to get some room to that.

00:56:02.200 That's right.

00:56:02.700 And discovering where the strengths and weaknesses are and then trusting that I'm going to defer because I don't see it.

00:56:08.700 So I'm more trusting by nature than Tammy, right?

00:56:11.960 And so I say yes to things and people that I shouldn't.

00:56:15.580 And she says no to people and things that she should.

00:56:18.220 But if we talk, then we're as wise as...

00:56:22.880 It's a balance.

00:56:24.020 Wise as serpent.

00:56:24.840 It's the complimentary.

00:56:25.920 What's the phrase?

00:56:27.260 As wise as serpent and as...

00:56:28.800 Gentle as it does.

00:56:29.420 Right, exactly.

00:56:30.460 And that's a consequence of communication across those differences.

00:56:33.440 Well, that's the beautiful part of all the dynamics that are at play here.

00:56:36.680 So there's never just one thing going on.

00:56:38.380 And so what's happening in your life is you're changing.

00:56:42.780 When you bring kids like this into your life, you are now seeing things in you that you would have never seen any other way.

00:56:48.060 Yeah.

00:56:48.500 You know, you've got your biological children.

00:56:50.160 You grow in ways you would have never been able to grow.

00:56:51.880 And so you end up growing that.

00:56:52.540 Right.

00:56:53.040 And I don't think...

00:56:54.540 I mean, many challenges will reveal things in you, but children, they're not someone you can just ignore and leave and walk away from and go, I'm done with you.

00:57:03.760 They're there.

00:57:04.880 Right.

00:57:05.280 And if you have any decency, of course, you're not going to do that.

00:57:09.300 So you're sort of like, okay, this is part of life now.

00:57:13.060 And you start to see the things in yourself that need to change, which is another part of why this is so important.

00:57:20.140 Yeah, the kids need help, but we are...

00:57:23.260 There's a dynamic thing going on in the world, you know, and when we follow Jesus, especially, he's after a lot of things.

00:57:30.100 And so as he's developing his followers and refining them, you must be put through flames.

00:57:37.020 You have to be in difficult situations and everything...

00:57:40.880 That forces maturation fundamentally.

00:57:42.580 Maturation.

00:57:43.500 Well, you see this in clinical practice as well as in developmental psychology is kids develop on the edge of their...

00:57:50.880 On the challenging edge of life.

00:57:54.360 So if two kids are playing a game, if they go to a playground and they want to find someone to play with, they want to find someone who's at their developmental level or slightly higher because that's where the challenge is.

00:58:05.740 And challenge forces development maturity, right?

00:58:10.240 And then you might say, well, what's the advantage to development maturity?

00:58:14.240 And the answer to that is, well, it works much better over the long run, all things considered.

00:58:19.160 Yeah.

00:58:19.480 But it requires continual sacrifice and that willingness to challenge.

00:58:23.780 And someone who's following Jesus, you know, part of your goal is to become like him.

00:58:29.200 And you can't do that without these kinds of things happening.

00:58:32.820 So I don't want to make it like a, we did this for ourselves kind of thing, but there is this layer, this reality to it that you're being purified in a sense.

00:58:42.020 Well, you want to point that out to some degree because young people, for example, they don't understand when they think about children, they think about the responsibility and the burden and the interference with their hedonic self gratification, right?

00:58:58.580 But what they don't understand is that the children offer more to them than they take.

00:59:04.000 And what they offer is, well, they offered it to you.

00:59:06.780 And you said that is, well, first of all, you weren't the self-centered, unnecessary center of the universe anymore.

00:59:13.660 And so not that you were particularly like that to begin with, but it's, and that's a relief.

00:59:18.720 And then to be put in a situation where you're required to mature, which is what children do in marriage as well, that's a gift, not a, it's an obligation, obviously, but voluntarily shouldered.

00:59:31.680 It's also a great gift.

00:59:33.260 And it's part of that process of hoisting the cross.

00:59:36.440 Which I see in this community too, in some ways, like there's just everyday challenges unrelated to this issue that has, have developed a way of confronting problems in them that just carried into the care of children.

00:59:49.180 And I, and I, I see that, that, that in America, at least, you know, we're, we're so comfortable.

00:59:55.360 We, as a, as let's just talk about the Christian church, you know, it's, it's got a really significant level of ease and comfort.

01:00:04.360 Our goals are so often not.

01:00:06.100 That's why it's failing, I think.

01:00:07.720 It's why it's failing.

01:00:08.600 Yeah, because people aren't being, there's not enough.

01:00:10.780 We avoid the, you know, we'd rather build, you know, stages than, than go where it's hard.

01:00:16.580 And that's understandable.

01:00:17.900 It's not a guilt trip, but it's just like, but we have to understand that about ourselves.

01:00:21.220 And part of making this movie was, and what I saw in this was, these are people who were doing the thing that they say we ought to do, that Jesus says you ought to do, but they're actually doing it.

01:00:30.800 And, and, and they're, they're, they're sacrificing, like part of what they could have is not going to happen for them now because they've brought in these other people.

01:00:40.740 So that, that's for, for us as creatives, you know, always wanting to do more than just create entertainment.

01:00:48.160 We want to do things that challenge, that are important, that change people.

01:00:50.660 Okay, well, so let's delve into that for, for a minute.

01:00:54.560 I would say probably for the most part in my life, I'm very averse to propagandistic art.

01:01:02.460 It really grates on me.

01:01:04.020 And it doesn't matter whether it's communist propaganda or Christian propaganda.

01:01:09.160 And I would define Christian propaganda as the subversion of the art to the, what would you, false, well, it's more than that.

01:01:17.760 Like, it's worse than that.

01:01:19.020 It's, it's that false, it's that praying in public.

01:01:22.140 Yeah.

01:01:22.440 Look how good we are because we've produced this message.

01:01:25.640 And then that subverts art and it makes terrible art and it's not effective, but it's also hypocritical.

01:01:31.480 It's, it's Pharisee-like hypocrisy.

01:01:33.780 So when you're attempting to make a movie that is in keeping with your moral striving, how do you protect yourself against the temptation to subvert the art to the propaganda, even if it's moral propaganda?

01:01:48.320 I love it.

01:01:49.880 Well, it's, it's, for, for me, I think it's starting with the, um, why are you doing this?

01:01:59.080 And that's the first thing I think that we ask is, is this something we ought to be doing?

01:02:04.760 Is it, is it bigger than us?

01:02:05.900 Is it important?

01:02:07.240 We're going to spend a lot of our life on this.

01:02:08.760 So does he want me to do this plainly said, and then like full commitment to that, what this was, we didn't fully understand.

01:02:19.940 And we knew that this was not, I've lived in small towns, but I've never lived in Possum Drive.

01:02:24.200 I've never lived in a predominantly black community.

01:02:27.720 And so we got to the point where we felt like we, to get this right, we got to go deep.

01:02:33.460 And so we decided to move as close to this community as we can.

01:02:35.920 We left California.

01:02:37.200 We could tell the script wasn't where it needed to be.

01:02:39.620 We weren't being fair to the idea.

01:02:41.880 And so for me, it's a full commitment to what you were doing as much as you can.

01:02:46.100 And that's how seriously we take filmmaking because they have such impact and can have such impact.

01:02:50.960 So is it fair to say, I was just thinking, while you were saying that, I was thinking about speaking on stage.

01:03:00.920 And when I'm speaking on stage, I'm not trying to tell the audience what I think or what I believe to be true.

01:03:08.540 I'm trying to figure something out, right?

01:03:11.020 It's an exploration towards the end is so that I know more than I knew to begin with.

01:03:15.980 But it's an exploration.

01:03:17.120 And I know many people who write fiction, for example.

01:03:21.000 I have a very good friend who writes fiction.

01:03:22.560 And he's trying to figure out what's going to happen when he's writing the fiction, right?

01:03:26.540 There's not a preordained conclusion.

01:03:28.720 There's a process of exploration.

01:03:30.800 Now, you said, because I'm still trying to figure out exactly how you stop it from being propaganda.

01:03:36.460 Now, you said you knew you didn't know enough and you moved to the community and you explored.

01:03:41.880 So is it fair to say that the film is an exploration?

01:03:44.720 I think it's certainly that on one hand.

01:03:48.360 I personally feel like art itself should be more than just exploration.

01:03:55.500 Like, I think we should have an opinion.

01:03:58.180 We're saying something.

01:04:00.120 Could be wrong, but we're going to say it.

01:04:02.800 And so part of what we do is speak from what we know.

01:04:06.720 And I, you know, I don't know how to distinguish exactly from propaganda.

01:04:11.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:04:11.860 Well, it's tricky.

01:04:12.820 But Jesus says, go and share the gospel.

01:04:15.620 Go and share what's true.

01:04:16.740 Go and tell the world what you know to be true.

01:04:19.120 So there is a responsibility in us to actually stand by what is true to us and be okay with that.

01:04:26.080 But I think you must have a level of humility and a posture of learning so that you're picking up the nuance.

01:04:35.800 You're picking up the things and allowing the things to remain that maybe aren't neat and clean and figured out.

01:04:41.180 And there can be some rough edges.

01:04:42.680 But to me, art that is just left to people to interpret, I think it's weird.

01:04:48.160 Right, okay.

01:04:48.640 So you're making a case that at least insofar as we're discussing what you did, there was a surrounding moral framework.

01:04:56.860 Yeah.

01:04:57.380 And you think that's commensurate with making genuine art.

01:05:00.940 But it has to be submitted to the craft.

01:05:03.440 Like, this is where I think the mistakes are made is you have to respect the art form.

01:05:08.940 Yes.

01:05:09.340 You can't demand of a painting it to be, you know, a performance art piece.

01:05:15.040 It's like, it's a painting.

01:05:16.780 And a film is a film.

01:05:18.800 And it has certain rules to follow.

01:05:21.140 You can't let it just be a message conduit.

01:05:26.580 Okay, so what can you specify?

01:05:29.880 So I watched the Angel Studios Chosen, and I watched Sound of Freedom, and I watched them carefully.

01:05:35.280 And I enjoyed them.

01:05:39.940 And so that was actually quite surprising to me, especially with regards to The Chosen, because that's a hard thing to pull off.

01:05:47.020 Oh, yeah.

01:05:47.440 Yeah, and they pulled it off.

01:05:48.500 It was, on its own terms, it succeeded.

01:05:53.780 Independent of the religious context, it succeeded as a movie.

01:05:57.780 It was a very difficult thing to do, especially over that protracted period of time.

01:06:01.700 And I felt the same about the Sound of Freedom.

01:06:04.120 And so, and now you just finished watching.

01:06:06.900 I watched it this morning.

01:06:07.720 This morning.

01:06:08.320 Yeah, and so, and we talked about that a little bit on the way here.

01:06:11.140 And you were engrossed in it.

01:06:13.180 Yes.

01:06:13.700 And so what worked for you as a viewer?

01:06:15.480 Oh, well, it was very effective, the staging of the scenes themselves, you know, with a small child who comes into a group of people, like the parishioners and the welcoming.

01:06:29.200 And to see that a child maybe who had been alone and who hadn't had love, the community that, I think you really showed that well, that the community could gather around and really lift up that child.

01:06:42.200 And you showed that in a number of different situations.

01:06:45.420 Okay, so why the community exactly, rather than the individual families?

01:06:49.640 Because I think it, I think because you guys had that huge, when one of the children got lost, when Terry found herself alone in the forest, the father, you know, called and said, bring the community.

01:07:03.980 You know, if we're going to find this child.

01:07:05.720 And it turned out that her mother found her, but then when she brought her back, the community gathered around to show this.

01:07:14.880 We are here as a cohesive group, and we're not going to let you go.

01:07:19.080 Yeah.

01:07:19.340 Yeah, well, so.

01:07:19.760 It was very good.

01:07:20.460 So, well, Moses, God tells Moses that he's not to assume that he can do what he's being called upon to do alone.

01:07:27.380 Right, and you see that with the biblical heroes fairly frequently.

01:07:31.320 So, Abraham has Lot and his family along, and Sarah along with him.

01:07:37.460 He's not doing this alone.

01:07:38.960 Everybody, and there's a, there's a very interesting idea that's embedded in that, which is that, you know, you can take on, and this is why it doesn't have to be about you in that narcissistic way.

01:07:49.380 Let's say if you're following the appropriate straight and narrow path, is that you'll have your role, and that will be plenty for you, more than enough, more than you can imagine even.

01:08:02.340 But that doesn't mean that there's any less for anyone else.

01:08:05.240 Absolutely.

01:08:05.740 Yeah, yeah.

01:08:06.480 So, that's that, that's a cornucopia image in some way, is that the realm of possibility is such that it's fundamentally inexhaustible, which I believe is.

01:08:15.300 It also identifies this community, and really, people who follow Jesus.

01:08:19.120 It isn't an isolated thing.

01:08:20.740 It is a family.

01:08:22.680 This is a globe, it extends around the globe, and the intention is for these to be done in community, and that's why this works so well.

01:08:30.280 We've found that in our own lives, but this individualistic kind of approach to problems isn't the future.

01:08:37.580 That's not the way forward.

01:08:38.600 I think it's together, and it's why we focus on the church in this.

01:08:42.540 You know, I want to see, I want to see hundreds of thousands have been in chapels, because they captured that essence of coming together around something as a community.

01:08:52.540 Well, you see, you see the same thing laid out.

01:08:54.820 This is vitally important, right?

01:08:56.700 There's a scene in Exodus where Moses is in the desert with the Israelites, and they ask him to be their judge, and they're really preparing him to be a new pharaoh.

01:09:07.240 And Jethro, his father-in-law, shows up and says, you can't do this.

01:09:12.160 It's too much for you, and it will corrupt you.

01:09:14.920 But worse, you're depriving your own people of the opportunity to be responsible and to make their own judgments.

01:09:21.540 Exactly.

01:09:21.860 So it's a profound revelation of proper governance, right?

01:09:27.480 Because Jethro sets up a subsidiary hierarchy of responsibility as an antidote to tyranny and slavery.

01:09:35.540 And so in this community, so you start the adoption process yourself, but then other people are interested.

01:09:43.420 And you said it's partly because they're listening to you and they trust you.

01:09:47.800 So what happens next?

01:09:50.080 Like, what happens after you start the adoption process?

01:09:53.860 You have 22 families that get involved.

01:09:56.220 And does that happen all of a sudden, or does it happen?

01:09:58.400 Over a period of time.

01:09:59.480 Over a period of time.

01:10:00.500 Because we did two classes.

01:10:03.540 I think it was the first class with 13 families, and then we came back and did another class.

01:10:07.960 We had a whole lot of people on that list, but then the state had so much.

01:10:14.300 Because if you get involved in adoption and the caseworker, their workload just stacks up.

01:10:22.300 They have so much.

01:10:22.940 You got 13 families at one time to work with.

01:10:25.840 That's a lot of work.

01:10:27.260 I mean, and they go to bed and wake up.

01:10:29.800 They sleep.

01:10:30.500 They wake up because there's a lot of work involved.

01:10:32.940 So it was my intention to get 100 children in the community.

01:10:37.960 But because we didn't have no resources out there whatsoever, the state cut us off.

01:10:44.740 And we had got 76 children.

01:10:47.500 And one day I came from out of state, and a lady called me from Beaumont, Texas,

01:10:52.480 and said her son, she had a grandson that her daughter didn't want anymore because she was in college and all of that.

01:10:59.520 And she couldn't raise him.

01:11:00.760 She called me and asked me, would we take, I said, bring him on.

01:11:04.180 And this is what the last little boy that we got.

01:11:07.480 And his name was Michael.

01:11:08.980 And that's what made the 77.

01:11:10.400 And I don't, I really believe to me that this whole thing was a plan that God laid out.

01:11:21.740 And I believe that God wanted to teach this nation what we are missing in the adoption arena.

01:11:32.200 Now, you mentioned something a while ago that really struck my attention.

01:11:37.620 I thought about what Jesus went through for us.

01:11:42.880 He died simply to give his life that we can have life.

01:11:48.900 But then again, how much are we willing to go out of our comfort zone to help some other child?

01:11:56.740 Well, the thing of it is, and you mentioned something about comfort.

01:12:00.420 I think that what has happened, the church has gotten too comfortable.

01:12:04.360 And they done got so comfortable until they feel like that is not their problem.

01:12:10.100 It's somebody else's problem.

01:12:12.060 But they fail to realize that Jesus said, I came to seek and to save that which was lost.

01:12:20.960 We should be doing, if we're going to be Christ-like, that doesn't mean we're going to have to walk in his shoes.

01:12:25.200 The Pharisees and the Pharisees did not agree with what he was doing, but he knew his responsibility.

01:12:31.960 When God called you to purpose, he did not say it was going to be a level road, it's going to be a smooth road.

01:12:38.840 It's going to be some ups and downs.

01:12:40.600 You're going to have some problems.

01:12:42.160 But ultimately, if you just stay in the process, God is going to move in him.

01:12:47.640 He's going to teach you.

01:12:48.740 And all of those situations that we've been in, God made us make us stronger.

01:12:53.740 He make us more aware.

01:12:55.460 He helped us to be able that we can be a blessing to somebody else.

01:12:59.200 We went through, yes, I'll tell anybody.

01:13:01.120 Yes, we went through hell.

01:13:02.640 Stealing, lying, anything you can have.

01:13:05.220 They did it.

01:13:06.080 But the thing that we need is, God never give up on us.

01:13:08.640 So why do we have to give up on the children?

01:13:10.080 We did something.

01:13:11.600 We're doing this, and we believe today that if God's standing up way in those woods, churches nowadays is so flushed with so much wealth and so much gift that they can help another child.

01:13:25.460 But are they doing it?

01:13:26.560 No.

01:13:27.200 And here God's coming all the way down in them bushes in those woods to start something.

01:13:32.980 And it's got to be to show this world what we are missing.

01:13:37.320 We don't know what we got locked in that system.

01:13:39.160 We could have presidents and preachers and teachers and missionary workers, all locked in that system.

01:13:44.860 But if we don't do something about this and stop this process right now, it's swelling up every day, more and more and more.

01:13:52.760 I'm believing right now that God's going to use this as a catalyst to let this whole world know, hey, look, look what you're missing.

01:14:01.540 Look what we have looked over.

01:14:02.940 Now, James 1.27 says,

01:14:05.740 Purely living is undefiled that God accepts that we take care of the widows and the orphans.

01:14:10.200 Now, have we did that?

01:14:11.320 No, we have not.

01:14:12.400 And God got an indictment against these comfortable churches with these big, fine family life centers and doing all that.

01:14:19.340 And I'm not against that because I would like to have one myself.

01:14:21.760 But the fact of it is, we've got all the resources we need.

01:14:26.380 When we did what we don't, we didn't have no resources.

01:14:28.380 The only thing we have with each other, you talk about the community, we came together and realized that the church got to come together.

01:14:35.400 We created our own wraparound support right there in the church.

01:14:39.220 We depotized the men and the women to help us to watch over the children because this is a major problem that's going on.

01:14:46.880 The school's got a problem.

01:14:48.420 I got to go to the school.

01:14:49.680 I got to do this.

01:14:50.380 I got to do that.

01:14:51.000 But not one time did our bad come from the responsibility.

01:14:53.880 Why?

01:14:54.440 Because if God be for us, who can be against God?

01:14:58.220 We've got to realize right now that God's given us the ability to do the things that we do because the scripture said, great is he that is in us and he that is in us.

01:15:06.480 We've got this power over everything, on all the money for us, over everything, because the Lord is with us.

01:15:13.300 And that's all I know.

01:15:14.300 And that's what he told Moses on that mountain.

01:15:16.500 He said, look, Moses, you ain't got to worry about this.

01:15:18.320 He said, if you don't know what to say, just shut your mouth up and I'll speak through you.

01:15:21.800 So God's done the whole thing.

01:15:23.160 And all we got to do is be willing to go ahead on and do the work that God called us to do and stop looking to the left and stop looking to the right and stop looking up to the hill which come out of here.

01:15:33.920 We can get this thing done.

01:15:35.380 This system is going to be empty.

01:15:37.980 God is going to empty this system out.

01:15:39.960 Why?

01:15:40.480 Because he went all out of his way.

01:15:42.360 And I'd like to say this, too.

01:15:44.640 The first law of nature is self-interest.

01:15:47.640 But the first law of grace is others' word.

01:15:50.700 Jesus went all out of his way.

01:15:53.160 Then make sure that we can be sitting up here today.

01:15:58.080 Hey, everyone.

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01:16:47.960 Well, there's something to be said, too, for a demonstration case in a relatively isolated and poor community, because if you can do it there, well, that's the idea, isn't it?

01:17:03.480 And, you know, I was reminded when you were talking about part of the story of Elijah, and when Elijah is running from Jezebel, right, the evil queen, essentially, the nature worshiper, he ends up in the house of a widow, right?

01:17:20.160 And the widow has not enough food for her and her children, right?

01:17:23.940 And there's a famous episode in that story where I think she hits the side of the flower barrel continually, and every day there's more flower provided.

01:17:34.000 But the idea there is that it's a very fundamental idea, and it's the idea that you just expressed, which is that there's more possibility available, even to people who think they're in poverty, even if they are in poverty,

01:17:49.360 than they believe, if their alignment is proper and their aim is up.

01:17:54.840 Now, okay, so let's delve into that a little bit.

01:17:57.040 So this is a poor community, doesn't have much resources, the church isn't even architecturally sound, and yet people do this.

01:18:07.940 And so how do they manage it?

01:18:09.960 Like, why does it work?

01:18:11.900 Has it worked?

01:18:13.420 And why did it work?

01:18:15.040 It worked because, number one, we came together.

01:18:18.220 Number two, it worked because the Lord was with us.

01:18:21.740 We had many needs and still do.

01:18:24.840 But the problem of it is, some way and somehow, when you are doing this for the Lord and doing it in his will and obeying his commandment,

01:18:34.360 God would drop stuff on you that you never dreamed.

01:18:37.400 God would take somebody that you never heard of, and he said, look, I just was thinking about you, and I just want to bless you or something.

01:18:44.160 This is the way God, this is where you're able to accomplish things.

01:18:47.680 And look, it ain't nothing to be grinning and say, oh, man, look who I am.

01:18:51.900 It ain't nothing like that.

01:18:53.300 But the thing of it is, staying in the process.

01:18:55.540 I can't get that word out of my mind.

01:18:57.940 Process.

01:18:58.920 A process is something that you stay with.

01:19:01.240 If you get out of the process, you done messed up already.

01:19:03.900 But if you stay in the process, expect it when God has already opened up the challenge for you to walk through.

01:19:09.500 All we got to do is just stay with the process, obey his will, and understand that God got your back.

01:19:15.920 I don't care what happened.

01:19:17.380 See, that's the same thing with Elijah.

01:19:19.380 I mean, he was witnessing his widow's house, and what happened?

01:19:21.600 He said, look, I'll tell you what you do.

01:19:23.660 He said, I got a little oil and a little whole cake, and me and my son, we're going to eat, and we're going to drink, and we're going to die.

01:19:29.720 But look at Elijah and said, look, don't do that.

01:19:31.820 He said, give me money first.

01:19:33.700 She obeyed the man of God, and the mandate that was on his life, she obeyed that what he did, and her meal there never ran out again.

01:19:43.080 This is what happened when we obey God.

01:19:45.220 This is the thing that happened when we stay in the process and do what he said to us.

01:19:49.020 It ain't going to happen no way, because we do have our adversary out there that fighting us on every hand, don't want to see us do this.

01:19:55.180 And same thing you've done about this whole movie.

01:19:57.260 He have fought us on tooth and nail.

01:19:59.260 But let me tell you something, the only thing I can say about that, but God, when you go and do something, and you know that the Lord is with you, you don't even have to be afraid of that.

01:20:08.800 Don't even look at their faces.

01:20:10.100 Don't be afraid of that, because God is going to work it out.

01:20:14.780 Someway and somehow, God is going to work it out.

01:20:17.900 When Israel got out there in Bunda and needed some water, what God told them, they hit the rock and more water.

01:20:23.500 It's just the way he does that.

01:20:24.880 We don't always find it, but we know that God is with us.

01:20:29.860 So, you know, one of the things that's interesting about that Elijah story, too, is that it's after Elijah has that encounter with the widow, who is contrasted with Jezebel, who's powerful.

01:20:43.160 That's when his conscience awakens within him, right?

01:20:48.200 Because this is a very crucial story, because Elijah, of course, is one of the prophets who appears with Jesus when he's transfigured.

01:20:54.380 It's Elijah, Moses, and Jesus.

01:20:56.060 And Elijah is the first person in the biblical sequence of stories who formally identifies God with conscience, right?

01:21:06.080 Because it's Elijah who talks about the still, small voice.

01:21:08.900 He realizes that God is not in the earthquake, not in the fire, not in the storm, these awe-inspiring elements of nature.

01:21:17.900 That's partly why he's opposed to the nature worshipers.

01:21:20.240 And what he does instead is take everything that people had misapprehended in the awesomeness of nature as indicative of God, and he places it in a very lowly place in a way, which is the voice of conscience, right?

01:21:35.980 Now, and part of the theme that we've been developing in this discussion is something like the awakening of conscience in the church.

01:21:44.560 Okay, so now, do you think there's any particular significance in the fact that this is also something that happened in a predominantly black community?

01:21:53.040 No, it's something that is happening.

01:21:55.900 Well, let me say it like this.

01:21:57.760 What we did was in the black community, but what God did, what God is doing now, he exposing it to the world.

01:22:03.540 Yeah, absolutely.

01:22:04.780 Because we want everybody to know that we all got a part in this.

01:22:08.900 And like I said earlier, everybody can't adopt, but everybody can be a part of adoption.

01:22:15.120 We can do something to help.

01:22:17.300 The sad part about it, if we don't do absolutely nothing, that's the sad part.

01:22:22.420 But I do know one thing.

01:22:24.380 If God be for us, I don't care what happened, I don't care what, they can shake the graveyard and call dry bones to rise.

01:22:32.360 It doesn't matter.

01:22:33.400 If God be for us, we're going to succeed.

01:22:35.740 See, this movie, if God would just give you a short history of the hell, of the problem, of the situation, and of the trouble and the trauma that we have done just to get this far, and the devil ain't through yet, he's still raising up his ugly head.

01:22:54.440 But here's the thing over here.

01:22:55.660 God wants somebody who won't say no, who won't give up.

01:22:58.360 And the lady told me the other day, she said these words.

01:23:01.000 She said, whatever God say yes in your spirit, that's what you do.

01:23:05.240 God done said yes, and that's what we're doing.

01:23:08.140 We are not bagging them.

01:23:09.660 We are not taking down.

01:23:10.760 We are not running away.

01:23:11.580 Because you know why?

01:23:12.680 We got the power over this, not the enemy.

01:23:15.140 But he wants to throw up this bluff and make us feel and try to intimidate us.

01:23:19.540 But look, I'm too old a cat to be fooled by a kid.

01:23:22.780 I'm not going to let the enemy try to bring this stuff down on me, and I know better.

01:23:26.200 Because I already know what the Lord said.

01:23:29.200 No weapon, I mean absolutely no weapon formed against us shall prosper.

01:23:33.840 We are more than a conqueror in our standings on that.

01:23:37.440 I'll say something for you.

01:23:38.420 You're pretty good at that.

01:23:39.300 I think there is something about your community, and even the black community at large, because

01:23:46.840 of what in our country they've had to overcome historically, and the bond that's been created

01:23:53.640 through community and family that they've thrived because of and survived because of.

01:23:59.280 It's an example, I think, in a picture of what Christian family is supposed to be like.

01:24:05.660 And I don't mean blood family.

01:24:06.820 I just mean spiritual family as well.

01:24:08.440 So I think there is something that we noticed that allowed for this to work and is an example

01:24:15.620 that we want to follow.

01:24:17.400 And I think we've lost, at least in the bigger series, I think there's a lot of smaller communities

01:24:22.520 that just kind of naturally have that.

01:24:24.000 But it's a great sense.

01:24:25.680 It was just being a black woman and proud of being black, but I think about my poor parents.

01:24:36.580 Well, there's a particular problem with the breakdown of family structures in the black

01:24:40.960 community.

01:24:41.680 And so the fact that you're working within your marriage and then you're working within

01:24:47.280 this community to rectify some of the consequences of that seems to me to be significant, in addition

01:24:53.400 to the fact that you're doing it with, well, hypothetically with restricted resources.

01:24:57.900 It's like, it's not so obvious in a way that your community is poor because you actually

01:25:04.900 have a community.

01:25:05.900 And if you're rich and you don't have a community, you're poor, right?

01:25:09.320 Well, it's true.

01:25:10.320 It's true.

01:25:10.940 I see what you're saying too.

01:25:11.900 Well, true.

01:25:12.660 You're just rich and isolated.

01:25:14.180 And then that often just does you nothing but give you license to pursue your idiot habits.

01:25:19.680 And, you know, that's partly why Christ says to the rich man who's in distress that he

01:25:24.800 has to sell everything.

01:25:25.760 Sell it all.

01:25:26.360 You think you're rich, but you're not.

01:25:28.260 You're not rich at all.

01:25:29.520 In fact, your wealth is an enemy.

01:25:31.600 That's kind of the enemy that you made allusion to with regards to the church.

01:25:36.380 No, it's that comfort.

01:25:38.180 You can think of that comfort.

01:25:40.320 Comfort is Abraham's worst enemy when he begins his adventure, right?

01:25:43.840 It's what he has to sacrifice immediately to go out into the world, his comfort.

01:25:48.580 You said something that you brought up Abraham.

01:25:51.200 Notice what Abraham, no.

01:25:52.700 Know what he did.

01:25:54.360 Abraham, when God said, Abraham, get up and go to a land that I'll show you.

01:26:00.680 Did he ask God which direction?

01:26:03.440 Did he question God?

01:26:05.280 Why me?

01:26:06.000 Did he question God?

01:26:06.940 What did Abraham do?

01:26:08.600 Gathered up his flock.

01:26:09.800 Yeah.

01:26:10.120 Gathered up his stuff and started.

01:26:11.740 And hit the road.

01:26:12.700 But hit the road.

01:26:13.400 Now, I'm sitting up here saying, how did Abraham know whether to go north, south, east, or west?

01:26:21.060 The Lord's with him.

01:26:22.480 And God was showing him within his own mind.

01:26:26.940 I'll show you.

01:26:27.740 The way he should go.

01:26:29.760 And he went that way.

01:26:30.780 Yeah.

01:26:31.320 Continually.

01:26:31.940 And you mentioned a lot a while ago.

01:26:34.460 It came a time.

01:26:35.720 Yeah.

01:26:36.500 That God had to do something.

01:26:38.520 Because the Bible said, how can two walk together except they agree?

01:26:42.660 Yeah.

01:26:42.800 So Abraham and Lot had to separate.

01:26:45.300 Right.

01:26:45.700 Because God had a plan for Abraham.

01:26:48.380 That's why they separated.

01:26:49.800 But the thing of it is, God blessed Lot, and he also blessed Abraham.

01:26:53.520 But Abraham had to cut.

01:26:55.560 I preached a message one Sunday.

01:26:57.360 To get a lot, you got to give up a lot.

01:26:59.720 Yeah.

01:27:00.240 And that's what we know.

01:27:01.260 You got to give up your lot to get a lot.

01:27:04.140 That's what Abraham done.

01:27:05.320 He gave up his lot.

01:27:07.020 That's funny.

01:27:07.700 To get a lot.

01:27:08.720 And after he gave up his lot, look what God done.

01:27:10.820 Yeah.

01:27:11.680 He said, Abraham, I'm going to make you rich.

01:27:14.160 But he had to give up his own nephew in order to get this rich from God.

01:27:19.840 Well, God offers Abraham four things.

01:27:23.860 Right?

01:27:24.240 So he comes to Abraham, and he says, leave what's comfortable.

01:27:28.340 And he says, this is what will happen.

01:27:30.700 Your life will become a blessing to you.

01:27:33.200 Right?

01:27:33.680 Your name will become known validly among your contemporaries.

01:27:38.860 You will establish something permanent and of lasting value.

01:27:42.440 For Abraham, it's a dynasty of nations.

01:27:45.180 And you'll do that in a way that brings a blessing to everyone.

01:27:48.460 Right?

01:27:48.840 And so that call of adventurous responsibility, that's what came to you on the porch.

01:27:53.640 Okay.

01:27:53.940 So what has that done to your community?

01:27:56.080 What have you seen happen as a consequence?

01:27:58.880 First of all, to the people who adopted and the children.

01:28:02.080 But what's been the broader impact on the community?

01:28:04.860 The enlargement of love, family, you know, stability, faith, sound of hope, you know, and passing down, stopping the generational curses.

01:28:20.320 Right.

01:28:20.600 Being the bondage breaker and seeing that those children, children, because they were gathered into love and impact by change, that they're children.

01:28:35.440 My grandchildren that I nurture, you know, that comes up to our home, will never have to experience what they parents.

01:28:43.640 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:28:44.640 You're talking about gratitude and gratefulness.

01:28:46.620 Right.

01:28:46.900 So it's a permanent change.

01:28:48.160 It's a permanent change.

01:28:49.260 It's an everlasting.

01:28:50.560 Just that the promise.

01:28:51.600 Yeah, yeah.

01:28:52.040 Gave unto Abraham.

01:28:53.040 Well, that's right.

01:28:54.600 So what happens to Abraham is that God says to him, if you follow the voice of adventure and let it take you wherever it wants to take you, then you'll become the father of nations.

01:29:09.460 And so I'm thinking about that.

01:29:11.120 Well, I think what it means.

01:29:12.460 Okay.

01:29:12.740 See, there's a mistake that evolutionary biologists make when they think about human reproduction.

01:29:20.540 They think about reproduction as sex, but that's foolish because our children require this kind of dedicated commitment that you mentioned, right?

01:29:30.760 Once you take on a child, it's like it's a 40-year commitment, right?

01:29:35.440 And so sex just gets the ball rolling, you might say.

01:29:39.320 There's an immense sacrifice that has to be made after that.

01:29:43.280 And that's the sacrifice that forces you to mature.

01:29:45.820 Well, what God points out to Abraham is that if he does that right, he'll establish a pattern of fatherhood that will then cascade down the generations and make his descendants successful, right?

01:29:58.140 Because God promises him that his descendants will defeat the people of Cain, for example.

01:30:03.760 And those are the resentful, bitter descendants of Cain.

01:30:07.320 And so there is that.

01:30:10.320 So you see that your community has adopted this responsibility that's multi-generational.

01:30:16.380 And you think people are aware of that?

01:30:19.480 I mean, you laid it out very quickly.

01:30:22.020 I think so.

01:30:22.860 I think so.

01:30:23.540 I think that coming from the same community and have the same values and touched by the same love, it's passed down.

01:30:31.760 You know, you can only give out what's been given to you.

01:30:35.640 And being in the same area and having the same, you know, form of life and expectancy before you, yeah, you gravitate to the environment that you are in.

01:30:49.240 So, yes.

01:30:50.780 Yeah, I think so.

01:30:51.820 Well, it seems to me, too, that there's people in the modern world are searching for identity, right?

01:30:58.920 They're searching for dignity, and maybe that's more difficult.

01:31:02.340 Maybe that's more difficult if you're poor.

01:31:04.880 Although there's plenty of undignified rich people, so it's not that clear.

01:31:08.420 But it is clear, I believe, that that dignity that people are searching for is accomplished by adopting responsibility.

01:31:18.360 Because you know then, like, even if things come your way that, I don't know, demean you, maybe that's when, socially, you, if you've taken on the proper responsibility, you know in your heart that, what?

01:31:35.420 You probably know in your heart that God's with you.

01:31:37.900 That's it.

01:31:39.000 That, that, that, that, that, from, look, look, look, that, that, that's a period.

01:31:42.600 Sell it out.

01:31:43.620 Point and case.

01:31:44.760 Not without, a shadow of a doubt.

01:31:48.600 Yeah, you know what's worth it.

01:31:49.500 What got Abraham where he was?

01:31:51.880 And this is why we call him the father of the faithful.

01:31:55.320 Abraham was faithful.

01:31:57.160 He, although he messed up.

01:31:59.400 Yeah, yeah, lots.

01:32:00.440 He messed up.

01:32:01.300 But the thing of it is, God looked beyond his faults.

01:32:05.380 Yeah.

01:32:05.820 And, because he, God promised Abraham what he was going to do.

01:32:09.940 God is not going to go back on his promises.

01:32:11.940 Now, we go back on God because we go contrary to the will, but he didn't go back on his promise.

01:32:17.660 He told Abraham what he was going to do, and he did just that.

01:32:21.500 And in the midst of all that, Abraham messed up bad, but God had mercy.

01:32:27.700 I guess that's why we got mercy and grace today.

01:32:30.640 Yeah.

01:32:30.820 Because God keep on giving us his mercy and his grace to help us understand the beauty of who he is and what he want to do in our lives.

01:32:41.080 Well, it also means, it also means what you were referring to earlier about how you struggled when you first adopted children is that you didn't know what you were doing to begin with.

01:32:54.880 And that's certainly the case for Abraham and for Jacob and all the biblical heroes.

01:32:59.100 They definitely figure it out along the way.

01:33:01.600 And a large part of what does constitute God's grace is the fact that you can do a good thing badly and learn along the way.

01:33:10.120 Right?

01:33:10.580 And that's a relief, right?

01:33:11.640 Because this is one of the things I've really learned from reading these biblical stories is that the heroes in the Old Testament, they're very flawed people to begin with.

01:33:20.160 And that's a relief because everybody's very flawed to begin with.

01:33:23.060 So if there's hope for them in their flawed circumstances, that also indicates perhaps that there's hope for all of us who are flawed to begin with.

01:33:31.700 And that the proper sacrificial intent gets the ball rolling.

01:33:39.300 Right?

01:33:39.480 Right. Okay. When does the movie come out?

01:33:43.180 July 4th. You can actually go July 3rd, but the official opening is July 4th.

01:33:48.140 So nationwide, over 2,000 screens. We'll see how it goes and it will go beyond that.

01:33:53.900 And you mentioned that you have a first grand opening.

01:33:58.320 We have a premiere.

01:33:59.500 Tomorrow?

01:34:00.100 It's a premiere tomorrow.

01:34:01.120 Yeah, and that's in Atlanta?

01:34:02.600 It's in Atlanta.

01:34:03.240 Oh, it's in Atlanta.

01:34:03.860 Yeah, we filmed near Atlanta, so we're going to gather with the crew and everybody down there to kick this off.

01:34:10.220 Okay, and so maybe we could close this.

01:34:14.560 What is it?

01:34:15.420 There's a call to action in all of this, so let's make that practical.

01:34:21.380 What is it that you're hoping will happen, you guys and you?

01:34:25.920 What are you hoping will happen?

01:34:27.140 And is there something concrete other than going to see the movie that people, because people should be interested in the movie per se,

01:34:34.560 but maybe there's also something that it's calling them to do beyond actually just watching the movie?

01:34:41.680 I think in a broad sense, it's really working to resolve some of the problems around us in our communities.

01:34:50.540 Right.

01:34:50.920 You think about how this problem connects to things.

01:34:53.200 The foster care system is like the feeder of all kinds of terrible things in our society.

01:34:58.620 You know, the majority of kids who are trafficked in America, 70, 80, 90% of them have spent time in the foster system.

01:35:08.480 You've got 50% of the homeless population in the United States has spent time in the foster system.

01:35:14.160 The prison population, I think it's 70% of the prison population has spent time in the foster system.

01:35:17.820 Sure, because the children aren't being taken care of.

01:35:19.860 Yeah, so this trauma and all the disruption that happens just leads to all of these other things.

01:35:24.240 So you already think this is a focal point.

01:35:26.360 We want to address the roots.

01:35:27.640 Oh yeah, oh yeah.

01:35:28.640 And the things that we all get so brokenhearted about and disturbed by,

01:35:33.520 but maybe don't feel like we can change.

01:35:36.120 This is a way to change it.

01:35:37.480 We get involved in the foster crisis.

01:35:39.120 We deal with the root cause of this.

01:35:41.320 So what we want people to do, go enjoy this movie.

01:35:44.560 Go be moved by the movie.

01:35:45.620 We made it so that you would enjoy it in and of itself.

01:35:49.140 There's a bigger purpose here,

01:35:50.400 and that is that we take responsibility for some of these things around us.

01:35:53.360 So we want to do that with the, at the end of the movie,

01:35:56.880 you'll have a way to continue spreading the news, creating awareness, buying tickets, pay it forward.

01:36:02.680 This is what ancient studios does.

01:36:03.720 And then there's a website that you will be led to if you're interested to get involved.

01:36:08.240 We're going to lead people in several ways to get involved.

01:36:10.840 We want to see thousands of churches emulate what Bennett Chapel did.

01:36:14.660 So you're going to be able to get your church involved.

01:36:16.820 There's people who may feel like they want to foster and adopt.

01:36:19.780 We're going to have a way for you to learn about that and maybe even get help on the ground where you are.

01:36:23.940 And then also prevention.

01:36:26.160 We want to see this stop.

01:36:27.620 We want to see these families that are in crisis helped.

01:36:30.500 So there's going to be ways to connect through something called Care Portal,

01:36:33.660 which connects families and needs to people who want to meet needs.

01:36:37.780 It's this amazing thing where we can cut off the flow of children into the system

01:36:42.220 by doing things as simple as providing beds for families or refrigerators or really it's relationship.

01:36:48.260 Ultimately, the relationship is what we want.

01:36:49.920 So we want people to go beyond this and look at their communities, their neighborhoods, focus on that.

01:36:57.180 We can see, broadly speaking, in our society a mounting fear of top-down tyranny.

01:37:03.460 Yes.

01:37:04.020 Right?

01:37:04.360 And it's fostering conspiracy theories and terror everywhere across the West, around the world.

01:37:11.820 And at the same time, what's accompanying that is a disintegration of community

01:37:16.760 and a fractionation of people into atomized individual slaves.

01:37:22.680 So we have a tyranny and slavery problem that's emerging.

01:37:25.420 And the historical antidote to that is subsidiary responsibility.

01:37:30.960 Right?

01:37:31.180 You look around to see what you can do.

01:37:33.460 Because then that's what they're doing.

01:37:34.560 You take a place like California, they're in effect allowing 13-year-olds to be emancipated.

01:37:39.540 But you've got little children who can be going into the car of a child trafficker, a known trafficker,

01:37:46.060 and a caregiver cannot stop that from happening.

01:37:48.760 Yeah.

01:37:49.040 They have to watch it happen.

01:37:50.120 They can take a picture of this.

01:37:51.680 I mean, so the insanity that results from people abdicating.

01:37:55.020 Yeah.

01:37:55.340 Going, no, we'll let the government deal with it.

01:37:57.160 Yeah.

01:37:57.460 Someone else, not my problem.

01:37:58.380 Well, every responsibility you abdicate to the government invites tyranny, right?

01:38:04.380 Turns you into a slave and invites tyranny.

01:38:06.180 That's exactly right.

01:38:07.100 And the antidote, it's very interesting.

01:38:09.280 You know, one of the things I've noticed in my lectures, and so the public lectures,

01:38:14.520 there's probably been 700 of them, something like that.

01:38:18.920 The thing that strikes people most now is to draw a through line from responsibility to meaning.

01:38:27.340 Mm-hmm.

01:38:27.840 Yeah.

01:38:28.140 Right?

01:38:28.920 Conservatives always tell people, this is what you should do.

01:38:32.980 Mm-hmm.

01:38:33.440 But they're missing something.

01:38:34.860 What they're missing is that if you do what you should do, then you have the adventure of your life.

01:38:41.120 That's what happens to Abraham, right?

01:38:42.660 The greatest things that could possibly happen to him, happen to him, because he's willing to take on responsibility.

01:38:48.240 Right.

01:38:48.640 Right?

01:38:48.820 That's what happens to Christ, obviously, as well.

01:38:50.760 Mm-hmm.

01:38:50.940 So the message there, the eternal message of the divine is that the adventure that redeems your life is to be found in the adoption of maximal responsibility.

01:39:03.500 I love that about you.

01:39:04.760 And that's, to me, it goes from religion to relationship that way.

01:39:08.320 Right.

01:39:08.700 When you're only acting out of ought.

01:39:11.300 Yeah.

01:39:11.640 Very cold.

01:39:12.400 Yeah.

01:39:12.660 It's cold.

01:39:13.320 That's right.

01:39:13.960 But when it's, I'm going to put within that purpose, and I'm actually going to make you become more like me, this is God speaking, or the relationship between us is there.

01:39:24.640 I'm allowing you to be a part of this.

01:39:26.180 That's the covenant.

01:39:26.800 That's the covenant is the adventure and the beauty of that involvement.

01:39:31.840 So, yes, of course, we ought to do these things.

01:39:33.720 Well, that's the burning bush again, you know, because Moses, by the time the burning bush appears to Moses, he's actually a pretty well-established adult, right?

01:39:41.200 He's a shepherd and doing a good job, and he's a husband, and so he's already grown up.

01:39:47.160 Mm-hmm.

01:39:47.540 But then that extra calling emerges, and he pays attention to it, and that transforms his life and then the world.

01:39:56.180 And that's, that's right.

01:39:58.680 That's an archetypal story.

01:39:59.980 That always happens.

01:40:00.580 And in the end, the one you're following is seen.

01:40:04.780 I mean, he wants to be known, but he's also limited all of this to faith.

01:40:11.140 Mm-hmm.

01:40:11.600 And so, with a lot of these questions, like, why, you know, and should we, and these kinds of things, it's like, well, within all of that, he wants to be seen and experienced and known, and there's so much happening.

01:40:21.400 And I want people to understand this isn't just, like, begrudgingly go out and do good.

01:40:26.400 Right, right.

01:40:26.560 And, like, help kids.

01:40:27.380 I don't know.

01:40:27.840 Well, yeah, but there's such power in this, and the experience is so deep, and you're missing so much if you just leave that to someone else.

01:40:39.060 That's the invitation to the heavenly banquet.

01:40:40.960 You know, I want to, I want to point this out, too, is that adoption is the antidote to abortion.

01:40:51.460 Mm-hmm.

01:40:52.120 Have the child.

01:40:53.960 If you don't, don't kill the baby.

01:40:56.640 That, that's, that's murder.

01:40:58.040 Mm-hmm.

01:40:58.460 And you're taking something you can't give.

01:41:01.020 And my Bible tells me, only God give and take away.

01:41:04.080 Yeah.

01:41:04.260 So, have the baby, somebody will take that baby if you're just going on and have the baby.

01:41:11.300 So, it, to me, it's an antidote.

01:41:13.460 It's just a solution.

01:41:14.900 Right, right, right.

01:41:15.520 An invitational solution.

01:41:16.520 An invitational solution.

01:41:17.720 And it will work.

01:41:19.340 Mm-hmm.

01:41:20.420 And it shouldn't be like this, no, it shouldn't be like this.

01:41:24.400 Yeah.

01:41:24.640 The church is the only entity that God ordained to take care of the problems of this world.

01:41:33.280 When I was 15, 14, 15 years old, we'd say, what do you call a service station?

01:41:39.020 Sometimes I call it a filling station.

01:41:40.800 You go to the service station or the filling station, if you need air, somebody will get a weight on you.

01:41:45.280 If you need a fat towel, whatever you need right there, you can get it all fixed right there.

01:41:49.960 So, the church is a one-stop solution that will fix all problems.

01:41:55.320 Why?

01:41:55.560 Now, because where the Word of God is and where God is, there is liberty and there is freedom.

01:42:02.680 And that will be when the people of God come together on one accord, the presence of the Lord is there.

01:42:10.520 And when the presence, wherever the presence of the Lord is, I mean, you've got everything you need right there because it's all in His presence.

01:42:19.200 So, what do you say to that?

01:42:21.780 Amen?

01:42:22.520 Yes.

01:42:22.960 Yeah.

01:42:23.400 Absolutely.

01:42:24.060 All right.

01:42:24.500 Well, that's a good question.

01:42:25.620 Well, we hope people hear the, I mean, what shakes me inside is that there's this, children, the voice of the child is in God's ears all the time.

01:42:36.780 He hears.

01:42:37.600 Yeah.

01:42:37.900 And I think right now we're at a very unique, this isn't just, you know, we threw a movie together.

01:42:43.700 Like, there's something going on in the world today and the child is at the center of that.

01:42:48.520 And it's this, the most innocent, helpless thing that, you know, God has done.

01:42:53.980 That's the divine child.

01:42:54.460 He has done with us just letting that happen without us coming and becoming involved in that and dealing with that.

01:43:01.800 And so, there's a lot in this for all of us, but people need to understand these children right now today, in America, there's 100,000 children that need homes.

01:43:09.900 Yep.

01:43:10.360 There's 400,000 kids in the system.

01:43:13.180 And just one solution is there's 400,000 churches in America.

01:43:17.900 So, this is a really-

01:43:19.060 One child per church.

01:43:20.180 Yeah.

01:43:20.520 This is a really manageable problem, you know?

01:43:23.380 And so, I'm hoping people hear the cry of these kids now, as I was drawn in because of that, that there's suffering children all around us.

01:43:32.320 There's kids.

01:43:33.080 They don't have room for these kids.

01:43:34.600 They're putting them in hotel rooms alone in some places in America.

01:43:37.920 They're putting them in defunct hospital wards.

01:43:40.920 They're putting children back.

01:43:42.020 And they don't want, welfare doesn't want you to know about this because it's, who wants to be told, you know, we don't know what to do about this problem.

01:43:48.940 It's so big.

01:43:50.000 And it's an emergency right now.

01:43:52.680 And so, part of this is, let's look at this as people and go, we got to do something here.

01:43:58.320 Children are suffering.

01:43:59.260 It's enough of this.

01:44:00.640 We can do more than just be Americans, live with the American dream or wherever you are, you know, making your goal comfort and yourself.

01:44:09.960 Well, this is the proper American dream.

01:44:12.000 This is it.

01:44:12.700 Yep, definitely.

01:44:13.320 And it's also the dream that actually produces wealth, right, in the long run.

01:44:17.920 Amen.

01:44:18.340 It's not natural resources.

01:44:19.980 It's not economic activity.

01:44:21.480 It's the proper covenant between the individual and God.

01:44:24.960 Yes.

01:44:25.480 Yes, definitely.

01:44:26.700 Amen.

01:44:27.480 All right.

01:44:28.360 Good.

01:44:28.860 Well, thank you to everybody watching and listening.

01:44:33.140 I'm going to continue this conversation for another half an hour on the Daily Wire side.

01:44:37.880 The Daily Wire, by the way, has been moving towards a practical relationship with Angel Studios, which I think would be good for both.

01:44:46.980 And so that's a good thing to see.

01:44:49.800 I've really liked working with the Daily Wire and I like what Angel Studios is doing.

01:44:53.780 And so the conjunction of that seems to be very good.

01:44:56.700 If you want to join us on the Daily Wire side, please feel free.

01:45:00.080 Thank you very much for coming up here.

01:45:02.500 And for what you've done and best of luck with the movie and with your continued endeavors.

01:45:08.580 God only knows what will happen as a consequence of this.

01:45:11.380 I guess we're going to find out.

01:45:12.620 It's very exciting, eh, that this is all going to launch July 4th.

01:45:16.480 July 4th.

01:45:16.760 That's a great time to have it happen, this renewal.

01:45:19.840 And so congratulations on your work.

01:45:22.480 And what an adventure to watch what happens, eh?

01:45:25.820 Amen.

01:45:26.380 That's for sure.

01:45:27.060 We appreciate you guys having us.

01:45:28.480 Oh, my pleasure.

01:45:29.540 My pleasure.

01:45:29.920 Thank you, Pam, very much.

01:45:32.220 It was, I'm very grateful to be here and to have met you.

01:45:35.440 It's a wonderful story and I look forward to hearing how it goes for everyone.

01:45:39.400 Thank you.

01:45:39.780 Thank you.

01:45:40.100 Yeah.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - July 04, 2024

461. The Story of Possum Trot ｜ Joshua Weigel, Bishop and Donna Martin

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