The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 468. Canada Can’t Defend Itself ｜ J.O. Michel Maisonneuve, Barbara Maisonneuve, and Mark Norman

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00:00:57.420 Hey everybody, so today we're doing a bit of a dive into the state of the Canadian military.

00:01:15.020 And it's not just that, because it's also a deep dive into the state of the Canadian political situation.

00:01:23.700 And then more broadly, I would say, somewhat of an analysis of a very important fragment of the culture war,

00:01:30.940 which is, let's say, the relationship between post-modernism and critical race theory and DEI equity nonsense,

00:01:39.080 and the most patriarchal of all institutions, the military.

00:01:44.040 And so it's an issue of broad international significance with a Canadian focus.

00:01:49.180 There's a bit of a crisis in the Canadian military, especially with regards to personnel retention and recruitment.

00:01:57.920 And that's emblematic of a much deeper problem.

00:02:00.760 And so we're going to dive into that problem.

00:02:03.400 It's taken me a while, but I found some people from the Canadian military who are willing and able to speak.

00:02:09.180 Mark Norman from the Navy, Michelle Mezeneuve from the Army,

00:02:13.280 and Barbara Krasich-Mezeneuve from the Air Force.

00:02:17.060 And so we're all going to talk today about the crisis that's facing the Canadian military,

00:02:23.860 and perhaps the military elsewhere, and why the military in Canada is necessary,

00:02:28.340 and what role it's going to play in the future,

00:02:30.180 and what problems it's suffering from that can't be, let's say,

00:02:35.340 easily gathered under the rubric of DEI emergency,

00:02:39.160 because perhaps that's the last of the serious problems that's truly facing the Canadian military.

00:02:45.140 Let's start.

00:02:45.960 Sir, will you introduce yourself, and I'll go through all three of you, and away we'll go.

00:02:51.200 Thanks, Dr. Peterson, for having me and the rest of us here.

00:02:54.820 My name is Mark Norman.

00:02:55.800 I'm a retired naval officer, third-generation Canadian military officer.

00:03:02.220 I served 39 years in the Royal Canadian Navy, starting as a reservist mechanic,

00:03:09.800 and rising through the ranks, having a whole bunch of great opportunities to do a bunch of really fun

00:03:15.540 and some not-so-fun things over that career.

00:03:19.040 I retired in 2019 after having commanded the Navy itself,

00:03:26.260 the actual institution of the Royal Canadian Navy as part of the Canadian Forces,

00:03:29.780 and a brief tour as the vice chief of defense staff, the second in command of the Canadian Forces.

00:03:36.900 And since then, I've been doing a variety of different things in the private sector

00:03:40.920 and trying to push the narrative and open discussion and dialogue about defense and security issues in Canada.

00:03:51.660 So, I really appreciate being invited here today.

00:03:54.060 Thanks.

00:03:54.800 Sure.

00:03:55.320 So, I'm Michel Maisonneuve.

00:03:56.660 I served 35 years in the Army, Canadian Army, and I was an Armored Corps officer, so tanker.

00:04:03.220 Went through a military college in Kingston, and then I finished my last job in uniform

00:04:10.540 was as the chief of staff of the NATO headquarters in Norfolk, Virginia,

00:04:15.140 which we stood up after a change from being a naval headquarters to a transformation headquarters.

00:04:20.500 Once I removed the uniform, I moved to the civilian service, the civilian national defense,

00:04:28.100 and I was appointed the academic director, the principal of the military college in St. Jean,

00:04:34.540 which was reopened in 2007.

00:04:38.420 I did that for 10 and a half years, and we actually, by the time I left,

00:04:42.260 we got it back up to university level.

00:04:44.680 And so, retired completely from both those jobs in 2018,

00:04:49.260 and since then, I've been speaking out as well about the state of our,

00:04:53.980 not just the armed forces, but our country.

00:04:55.780 And ended up, anyway, so that's been kind of the amount of work that I've been doing in the last few years.

00:05:05.580 My name is Barbara Krasi Maisonneuve, and I served for 21 years in the Royal Canadian Air Force.

00:05:12.800 And I started in the early 80s.

00:05:15.120 I did not join as an officer.

00:05:16.740 I joined as a private with the military police,

00:05:19.220 a trade that women had only been allowed in for a few years.

00:05:22.160 And then I was fortunate enough to go to the Royal Military College and Royal Roads,

00:05:26.940 and then I became an officer in the logistics branch.

00:05:30.140 And I served in incredibly amazing places, and I feel very blessed.

00:05:36.380 I retired, as I said, after 21 years.

00:05:38.340 Then I spent two years in the procurement world.

00:05:41.060 And since then, I feel that I would still like to give back.

00:05:45.280 So, I do various non-profit.

00:05:47.340 I work with the Canadian Warplane Heritage Museum.

00:05:49.140 And pretty much since the whole sexual harassment thing broke in the military,

00:05:56.320 I have wanted to tell my side of the story, and I think I speak for the majority.

00:06:00.900 But there's very few people that are willing to listen.

00:06:03.300 So, I really appreciate being here, Dr. Peterson, to be able to have a chance to do that.

00:06:08.660 Thanks for having us.

00:06:09.400 Oh, yeah.

00:06:10.200 Thank you.

00:06:10.580 Well, I'm thrilled that you're here.

00:06:11.960 It's a real privilege to be able to discuss these things and to come to, I hope, some deeper understanding.

00:06:19.580 Well, let's start with the 20,000-foot view.

00:06:23.300 I think I definitely want to delve into the issues of sexual harassment and hypothetical sexual misconduct in the military.

00:06:29.980 And also, I'd like to talk about the role of women in the military in a very frank way, because that's a very complicated problem.

00:06:38.160 But let's start with the state of the military in Canada in 2024.

00:06:44.440 And Mark, maybe we'll start with you, if you don't mind.

00:06:46.720 So, what issues do you think are paramount, and that paramount also in a manner that bringing to public attention would be useful?

00:06:54.920 Yeah, I think it would not be an overstatement to describe the Canadian Air Forces as being in a crisis.

00:07:04.600 And that crisis has many dimensions to it, and it is a very complicated equation, to use a mathematical analogy.

00:07:14.340 There is no one single thing that either stands out as being problematic, and by definition, wicked problems.

00:07:25.620 As soon as you start to mess with one element of that equation, you throw the other elements out of balance.

00:07:32.000 So, that's the context for my answer, which would be that we have at least three or four significant strategic challenges, starting outside and looking in.

00:07:45.360 First of all, we live in a country that traditionally has not really understood, although it accepts the need for an armed forces, it doesn't understand why an armed forces is necessary.

00:08:00.220 And those are two different conversations.

00:08:02.960 The global security situation we find ourselves in is eroding rapidly.

00:08:10.100 And this is another aspect of what I would describe as, it's not a naivete on the part of Canadians writ large, but it is a sense of, it's not really affecting us on the part of machinery of government.

00:08:24.640 We have an organization that has been chronically underfunded and under-supported for decades, and this is both episodic but constant over my entire time in uniform, and I'm sure my friends here would agree.

00:08:44.740 We have a human resources problem, both in terms of quantity and quality, where there are more people, there have been until recently, more people leaving the armed forces than joining it.

00:08:59.600 The institution is shrinking, and there are issues around the quality of individual that are being brought into the organization.

00:09:08.820 So we have a quantitative and qualitative problem as it relates to the strength of the armed forces.

00:09:15.300 And then, as you mentioned in your introduction, we have broader issues with respect to equipment, purchase, procurement, maintenance.

00:09:25.940 And these are all combining to create what I believe is a genuine crisis.

00:09:32.620 And then add to that external concerns around the credibility, not of the individual soldier, sailor, or aviator inside the armed forces, but of the institution.

00:09:47.520 Can it actually do what it's required to do?

00:09:49.980 Is it credible?

00:09:51.060 Is it reliable on an international level?

00:09:53.320 And this goes right to, at the grand strategic level, is Canada really supporting its military the way it should?

00:10:00.960 The 2% argument, all these things, right down to, is Canada really there to help the alliance and other key allies, and can it be relied upon?

00:10:12.060 And I think that this is kind of a messy melange of really significant concerns going forward.

00:10:17.980 Okay, so let me take some of that apart, and then we'll go to Michelle and then Barbara.

00:10:25.420 Let's strike at the heart of the matter.

00:10:27.660 So let's say that I'm being a realist and a cynic.

00:10:31.980 And I might say, well, why can't Canada merely ride on the coattails of the U.S.?

00:10:38.620 10 times our population, much stronger economy, outstanding military, they're going to defend Canada when push comes to shove.

00:10:47.620 We're adding a relatively small contribution, even if we pulled our fair share, pulled our weight, we'd be adding a relatively small contribution.

00:10:55.440 And given the proximity of the Americans and the fact that we're under their defense rubric, why not just attend to other things and let the military shuffle along?

00:11:06.760 Now, that goes to your point about being underfunded and undersupported.

00:11:13.640 And we've been able to, let's say, we've been able to get away with that, so to speak.

00:11:17.600 But you could make a case, if you felt like it, that that was a very pragmatic thing to do, given that we have the Americans on our doorstep.

00:11:24.860 So what, a counter-argument to that, one, might be, well, you can't play games with your primary military ally without paying a price for that.

00:11:37.900 So Canada should pull its weight, not least so that our opinion is given some weight.

00:11:42.920 And then I guess you'd make the same case internationally, if we're not pulling our weight on the military side.

00:11:49.800 And with regard to our international agreements, why should anyone take us with any degree of seriousness, including ourselves?

00:11:55.680 And I think we've seen that already, massive erosion in the perception of Canada's reliability on the international front.

00:12:04.220 And I don't think Canadians have any idea how badly this government has devastated Canada's international reputation.

00:12:11.000 Partly on the military side, but that's not the only reason.

00:12:14.540 Okay, so, what else would, yes?

00:12:18.000 Before you go on, if I may, I agree with everything that Mark said.

00:12:23.440 I see it as a, it's a perfect storm.

00:12:25.920 The international security environment has completely changed.

00:12:31.500 We never thought we'd ever have a state-on-state war again.

00:12:35.200 There's a situation in Gaza, of course.

00:12:37.980 There are rogue nations out there that are trying economically in a lot of other ways.

00:12:43.500 Eventually, perhaps militarily, are going to try to have the upper hand.

00:12:47.080 So the international situation is forcing people across the world to look at their security situation.

00:12:53.820 So that's a huge thing.

00:12:55.100 At the same time, as Mark said, there are all these issues within Canada, within the Canadian forces, that are making it, currently, we are undefended, if I can just say.

00:13:05.640 In my view, we are undefended.

00:13:08.140 The NORAD agreement took too long to get upgraded, so now, okay, they've made the decision to do that.

00:13:14.080 And that is now having an impact, as you say, in our standing in the world.

00:13:17.980 And I think one of the things that Canadians don't understand in terms of the importance of armed forces is that they are a means for us to demonstrate our involvement.

00:13:28.160 A ship, for example.

00:13:29.160 When a ship goes off and docks somewhere in any country, they're the greatest diplomatic tool that we can have because they're there to demonstrate Canada's there.

00:13:40.120 Our sailors are fantastic diplomats.

00:13:44.020 They get out there and they talk about what they do.

00:13:46.100 They talk about their country.

00:13:47.780 They spend money in the economy of that country that they're visiting.

00:13:50.840 You know, so that's just a small role, but it's an important one.

00:13:54.260 And as you say, right now, because we have not been supporting our armed forces, they're, you know, they're unsupported.

00:14:01.080 They're underappreciated.

00:14:02.480 They're, you know, so the impact.

00:14:04.920 What do you think that does to the, what is it?

00:14:06.540 Well, they feel, they feel underappreciated, which is.

00:14:09.120 Yeah, exactly.

00:14:10.820 And, you know, they're smart, motivated, patriotic people, for the most part, who really love what they do.

00:14:18.140 And they're doing it because they genuinely believe in it.

00:14:20.620 And when they see that there is not the level of support, both politically, nationally, and even inside the institution itself, then that becomes.

00:14:36.360 Demoralized.

00:14:36.860 It is demoralized.

00:14:37.700 Yeah, yeah.

00:14:38.100 Well, you're going to put your life on the line.

00:14:39.980 You want to make sure that people are behind you.

00:14:41.980 Right.

00:14:42.600 So, so Mike's intervention was really good for two reasons.

00:14:46.600 One, he made a couple of really good points and gave me a chance to think about how to respond to your, your question.

00:14:53.600 I think you laid out some of the elements of the answer in your own question in that, back to the essence of why not, why not just, you know, let the Americans look after us.

00:15:07.940 Yeah.

00:15:08.000 We, we have done that brilliantly for decades.

00:15:10.820 And I, I, I don't think that's an overstatement at all.

00:15:14.460 In fact, I could be somewhat provocative and say that all of these governments up to and including the current government that have played this game have done so brilliantly.

00:15:24.960 The problem is they've done so in a very short term micro view without understanding the implications of what they're doing, both in terms of the state of the institution, which some are more concerned about than others.

00:15:41.060 And we can come back to that, but more so to do with Canada's reputation.

00:15:45.720 And what's happening now is not just the global security situation, but the expectations have changed.

00:15:51.740 It, we're now in a world where the, it is not just security is not just a finite, uh, discrete activity.

00:16:01.840 It, it permeates a whole bunch of different dimensions of how nations and, and individuals and whether they're rogue states or whether they're organizations that are pan national, how they're interacting.

00:16:16.580 And it's not just the traditional physical notion of a military security has far broader implications, which means that you need to be looking at it more seriously, more strategically and looking at all the elements of it.

00:16:35.540 So the military is a key component of that because it is in essence, the insurance policy.

00:16:44.000 It is an overly simplistic, um, characterization, but it's true.

00:16:49.000 Now, a lot of people don't have the luxury of insurance for a variety of reasons, but ultimately.

00:16:55.000 Yeah, but we could afford that.

00:16:56.240 We're not a poor country.

00:16:57.560 We are not a poor country.

00:16:59.000 And we have, we have basically traded one degree of opportunity for another.

00:17:07.860 And I'll be more specific.

00:17:09.220 We have underfunded defense and security and other things, infrastructure, a whole variety of other things nationally, um, because we have believed that two things that are now fundamentally flawed.

00:17:26.800 The first one is that there isn't really, it's a threat versus consequence conversation.

00:17:33.200 The probability of something happening is really, really low.

00:17:37.160 And therefore there are other higher probability problems that need to be addressed.

00:17:44.240 And the second one is the very premise of your question, which was that the United States will always look after us.

00:17:50.160 Well, the United States is basically saying, look, um, yeah, we're partners here, but you are not living up to your obligations with respect to the expectations of the partnership.

00:18:03.780 The U.S. have noticed now.

00:18:05.320 Oh, yeah.

00:18:05.740 You know, they, they knew it.

00:18:07.280 Well, Trump definitely noticed.

00:18:08.860 Well, well, and now we've got, we've got members of the Senate, uh, publicly calling out the government of Canada in an open letter.

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00:19:38.960 And Mike, you said something very interesting in relationship to Mark's comments, too.

00:19:44.980 You talked about us being undefended.

00:19:47.160 So, let me expand that a little bit.

00:19:51.260 So, it isn't obvious to me anymore exactly where the prime military threat is.

00:19:57.620 And so, what that would mean from a staffing perspective is that you'd want to have the smartest and most alert possible people in your defense team

00:20:06.420 continually re-evaluating the shifting landscape to figure out where the threats are.

00:20:11.560 You know, so, and obviously, cybersecurity is a walloping element of that.

00:20:17.280 And that's a whole, that is really a whole new kind of warfare.

00:20:20.200 And I would say as well that the emergence of these cheap drones has also,

00:20:26.160 God only knows how radically that's changed the situation.

00:20:29.660 So, because they're unbelievably inexpensive.

00:20:32.180 And so, that's a real problem when you send hordes of them against unbelievably expensive military equipment.

00:20:37.940 So, what would you say?

00:20:40.220 We've already agreed to some degree that the terminology for the situation that faces the Canadian military is something approximating a crisis.

00:20:46.900 You laid out four or five reasons why.

00:20:48.860 It's a perfect storm.

00:20:50.500 It's, I mean, you know, it's everything together.

00:20:52.700 And so, when you're talking about the threats, of course, and there are great people in the military and in our civilian institutions

00:20:59.520 that are looking at what the threats are out there with cybersecurity and there's AI now that's going to the fore as well.

00:21:05.880 Quantum computing and everything.

00:21:07.180 And, you know, there's a need for digitization of our military, which is happening now under the guise of the NATO, I mean, the NORAB upgrade.

00:21:16.740 But, which then, okay, you say, so what?

00:21:20.020 So, the so what is that you need a range of capability.

00:21:23.200 And the range of capability that's going to be able to react to all these different threats.

00:21:27.980 Now, can we have, you know, the same kind of range of capability that the U.S. does?

00:21:32.640 No, we can't.

00:21:33.520 But we can be a small, capable military that, you know, that is, first of all, job one is protecting Canadians.

00:21:41.460 You know, and that goes from, you know, all the threats.

00:21:44.840 The North, for example, you know, we have a border with Russia, frankly.

00:21:48.080 You know, there we are.

00:21:48.800 I mean, it's right there.

00:21:50.440 And so, we need a range of capability to protect our country.

00:21:53.740 And then after that, then, do we want to participate and be good international citizens and participate in our alliances?

00:22:00.740 NATO, NORAD, of course, the UN, eventually.

00:22:05.480 I mean, you have to look at that.

00:22:07.380 That's another piece.

00:22:08.820 So, a military that's able to do everything, it can happen, but it has, you know, it's obviously not going to be on the same.

00:22:16.020 But that was our strength, though.

00:22:17.340 It was.

00:22:17.920 I mean, I think the Americans' push comes to shove.

00:22:20.420 Well, obviously, we'll never be on par with them as far as our military capabilities.

00:22:24.280 But you drop an American soldier into anywhere in the world, and there's a lot of opinions that come up about the American soldier.

00:22:31.160 They're seen as parties.

00:22:31.920 And I mean, Americans are.

00:22:32.940 And I love them.

00:22:33.780 I'm very pro-American.

00:22:35.320 But a lot of times, there's a reason why they don't want to talk to an American.

00:22:39.420 But you put a Canadian in there, whether we had a blue beret on or not. 0.91

00:22:43.420 You put, oh, Canadians, you know, they get along with everybody.

00:22:46.100 So, come and sit at the table.

00:22:47.220 And so, we were able to, I think, get into open doors and get in that bridge that Americans were not as able to as we were.

00:22:55.700 So, Canadians can use a softer touch.

00:22:57.580 That's right.

00:22:58.100 And I think that diplomatically, even, we are less offensive.

00:23:01.420 And I think everybody would agree with that, that Canadians seem to be less offensive.

00:23:04.660 So, everybody's willing to talk to us.

00:23:06.420 And how wonderful is that if there's only one seat left at the table and they'll choose a Canadian because we don't have any natural enemies, so to speak.

00:23:15.060 We don't, you know, we've always proven to be, I think, good people in general and, you know, and freedom and liberty and all of those things.

00:23:23.680 We don't have a colonial history.

00:23:25.860 There's a lot.

00:23:26.740 Oh, yeah.

00:23:27.380 Exactly.

00:23:27.960 Yeah.

00:23:28.280 And I mean, this is just like anecdotal.

00:23:31.380 But when I was in the Middle East, we were always trying to be very, very nonpartisan.

00:23:37.660 So, if we did something on the Israeli side, we had to be sure to do it on the Syrian side. 0.97

00:23:41.880 And this got to be, like, it was very hard to keep track of.

00:23:45.740 And I remember saying at one point, wouldn't it be nice if someday we could actually do this and have, you know, the Canadians and the Syrians and the Israelis and the Austrians, whoever else, are with us.

00:23:56.080 And without, in the blink of an eye, this very seasoned, you know, IDF soldier turned to me and said, that could only ever happen in Canadian mess.

00:24:04.100 So, you know, and it was kind of that feeling.

00:24:06.680 That was our reputation.

00:24:07.200 That was our reputation.

00:24:08.520 That was.

00:24:08.880 Past tense.

00:24:09.740 Yeah.

00:24:09.940 What's changed in, I think, a fundamental way is not necessarily the caliber of the individual Canadian soldier, military leader, however we want to describe it.

00:24:26.640 What has changed is the more global perception of what Canada represents or doesn't represent.

00:24:34.560 Not yet.

00:25:04.560 And that is, I would say, no longer the case.

00:25:09.640 Or if it is, it is so rare and isolated.

00:25:13.580 Why?

00:25:13.940 Why?

00:25:14.200 What's changed?

00:25:14.600 Well, I think we've lost our way in terms of who we are, what we stand for.

00:25:20.200 Right, right.

00:25:20.660 What we see as our role internationally, we have biased our political rhetoric so far towards the notion of social values and those ideas that we have lost sight of what is in our national interest.

00:25:41.660 And we are, we're trying.

00:25:43.500 Yes, well, we're not even sure that having a national interest is something that's worth pursuing anymore, right?

00:25:48.640 I mean, our prime minister defined us as not having a national interest.

00:25:52.400 That's right.

00:25:52.420 Post-national.

00:25:52.840 He's obviously very internationally oriented.

00:25:55.860 So, it isn't even obvious that our leadership at the top level considers the nation, state, and institution that's worth preserving.

00:26:02.480 Well, if we're a post-national state, frankly, you don't need to have citizenship.

00:26:07.100 You don't need to really have a passport that recognizes you as Canadian.

00:26:10.600 You know, you don't need national institutions and you don't necessarily participate.

00:26:18.260 And, you know, I mean, you look at our country, what potential we have.

00:26:22.500 The potential we have, first of all, let's talk about even just our two languages, okay?

00:26:27.500 The fact that we have a Canadian, French and English kind of, you know, those two official languages.

00:26:33.320 When our officers or soldiers go off and sailors and airmen and women go off to missions,

00:26:38.200 a lot of them are able to speak, you know, both of them.

00:26:41.880 And so, they're able to diplomatically just think of what that does.

00:26:44.660 I mean, most nations that you participate with, you know, our American friends, you know, can't do that.

00:26:50.880 We can sidle up to the French, to the Belgians, to, you know, in the NATO nations even there.

00:26:57.380 In Africa. 0.56

00:26:58.220 In Africa, for example.

00:26:59.100 French Polynesia.

00:27:00.000 French Polynesia.

00:27:00.980 There you go.

00:27:01.520 Bingo.

00:27:01.740 Vietnam.

00:27:01.980 You know?

00:27:02.520 And so, look at the strength of that.

00:27:04.500 You know, you're making, you're all making a case that Canada has a particular positive role to play independently, like in the world.

00:27:11.740 And, of course, that Canada does have a history of that and a very effective history of that, independent of the specific defense requirements of Canada.

00:27:21.060 And that's part of, what would you say, maintaining and promoting global peace, but also part of putting Canada out there as a credible nation state that should be taken seriously.

00:27:33.420 As a player that has an opinion and that's able to actually participate.

00:27:36.840 Not only participate, but intervene when required.

00:27:40.780 Right.

00:27:41.020 And it's very difficult.

00:27:41.920 And let's go back to an earlier question that you posed to us in context, and I'm paraphrasing.

00:27:48.980 You know, why is this important to Canadians from a what's-the-threat perspective?

00:27:55.320 And I'm not going to sit here and list a whole bunch of boogeymen perceived or otherwise.

00:28:00.800 Well, we can list the Chinese Communist Party, for example.

00:28:03.740 So, yes.

00:28:04.400 That's a real threat.

00:28:05.360 There's one.

00:28:06.060 Yeah, definitely.

00:28:07.020 But I think it's important for your viewers to understand that this is not a monolithic binary conversation.

00:28:16.400 This is a continuum of concerns.

00:28:18.580 And I'm on the public record of saying, do I believe that somebody is going to attack Canada or invade Canada in a traditional military sense?

00:28:30.280 I think the probability of that is extremely low.

00:28:32.780 However, do I believe that other powers are going to use military capability to influence something halfway around the world or even in our own backyard that is in our national interest?

00:28:49.260 100%.

00:28:49.900 Absolutely.

00:28:51.040 All the time.

00:28:51.760 All the time.

00:28:52.440 This is the naivete that concerns me because we have traditionally seen the conversation about military capability in Canada through the lens of, you know, we live in a fireproof house with no flammable materials immediately around it, right?

00:29:10.980 Or whatever the saying is.

00:29:12.560 But the reality is, no, it's not about our house.

00:29:17.300 It's about our lifestyle.

00:29:18.720 We enjoy, maybe not as much as we have in the last several decades, but we still enjoy an incredible level of privilege in our lifestyles.

00:29:33.400 And that is dependent on a whole series of international systems.

00:29:38.300 And those international systems are all under threat.

00:29:41.340 They're under threat from a military perspective.

00:29:44.740 They're under threat from a political perspective.

00:29:46.660 They're under threat from an economic, they're under threat from a sociological perspective.

00:29:51.020 And the more that we erode our ability to protect those systems, the more vulnerable we become, not to an invasion.

00:30:02.880 Well, electronic invasion.

00:30:04.160 It is.

00:30:04.820 It's a virtual or ideological invasion as opposed to a physical attack against the nation.

00:30:13.420 And this is why this is such an important conversation.

00:30:17.160 And it is timely, as Mike said, because we really are seeing arguably, you know, a generational situation where, you know, we're extremely vulnerable.

00:30:31.000 We're not paying attention.

00:30:32.440 We're not keeping track of what's happening in the big bad world.

00:30:36.200 And we're so inwardly focused and understandably focused on our own domestic problems that we're losing sight of what's happening.

00:30:46.920 Well, we're also focused on weird domestic problems.

00:30:49.500 Barbara, let's bring you in on this because this really started to come, this came to my attention last year, let's say.

00:30:56.000 And it's been mounting.

00:30:56.860 It came to my attention because I came across a couple of articles in the Canadian military, primary Canadian military journal.

00:31:04.260 And they were hypothetically academic articles.

00:31:06.880 And I read them.

00:31:07.760 And well, and so the problem, Mark, you listed a variety of problems with the Canadian military.

00:31:15.400 And none of the problems you listed are the problems that the new chief of defense staff is planning to, what would you say, address.

00:31:24.680 The fundamental problem that she seems to be wanting to address is sexual misconduct in the military.

00:31:31.200 Okay, now, so here's the problem I have with that from a diagnostic perspective.

00:31:38.600 The first issue is I'm sure there are instances of sexual misconduct in the Canadian military.

00:31:45.140 But I'm not sure at all that there are more of those in the Canadian military than there are in the typical university, for example.

00:31:51.160 And so, in fact, my suspicions are that there would be substantively less.

00:31:56.800 And the reason I think that is because I know perfectly well that the Canadian military tilts towards the recruitment of highly conscientious people.

00:32:04.720 And they're less likely to do those sorts of things.

00:32:06.640 So I'm sure there's plenty of it because we're putting young men and young women together in very stressful circumstances.

00:32:12.900 And they're going to misbehave.

00:32:14.880 And that'll also be true of some of the people who aren't, you know, mere recruits.

00:32:20.220 But that's not the issue.

00:32:21.360 The issue is, is it more prevalent in the Canadian military?

00:32:24.680 And is that the crisis?

00:32:26.340 And then the next issue is, let's say there is a problem.

00:32:29.840 And then it isn't clear to me that there is.

00:32:31.480 But let's say there is.

00:32:32.660 Well, what's the solution? 0.83

00:32:34.120 Well, the other thing I ran across in reviewing these papers is the solution is the same damn DEI solution that's being applied to everything. 0.84

00:32:40.740 And so I don't see this as a diagnosis of what's wrong with the Canadian military.

00:32:46.060 What I see it is as is an extension of the fundamentally leftist, radical, postmodern, neo-Marxist presuppositions that are destabilizing all our institutions, being focused on, you know, removing the patriarchy from the military.

00:33:03.160 Which I can't imagine a more woolly-headed or ill-advised diagnosis and solution than that, especially given all these other practical problems that you've described.

00:33:14.720 So let's delve into that a little bit.

00:33:16.600 So I don't know where to start with that.

00:33:18.980 So I could just start by saying, I think that with Jenny or General Carignan, that was the job she's coming from.

00:33:25.660 That was created, the chief culture and personal conduct that was being revamped.

00:33:31.140 And that command was created to address, I think, the sexual misconduct, things that were coming out of that.

00:33:37.720 So it is my hope that she disbands that as her first job as the CDS.

00:33:42.880 And I will happily go on record as saying that.

00:33:45.600 You think there's any chance of that?

00:33:47.060 That I don't know.

00:33:48.200 That I don't know.

00:33:49.320 Because, you know, and you're-

00:33:50.880 Just to stop you for a minute, your initial premise was wrong, I think.

00:33:54.740 Okay.

00:33:55.100 When you said she's going in there to promote that as CDS.

00:33:58.580 As chief of defense staff, I'm sure she knows as well as all of us that her job is to be the chief of defense staff, to command the armed forces, to, you know, to make them operational.

00:34:10.040 But that had been her job that she came from.

00:34:11.920 You're absolutely correct.

00:34:12.940 That was created.

00:34:13.560 So, so, but it's this radical progressive agenda.

00:34:17.920 And, like, they're just, it's been imposed right on every, every facet of Canadian life.

00:34:22.680 And, you know, academics, some embraced it as, you know, academic, like the law did.

00:34:27.780 And, but to impose it on the Canadian forces, I shake my head.

00:34:30.520 If the warrior culture, we have to stamp it out. 0.54

00:34:33.840 Oh, my God.

00:34:34.400 If there's one place you want to have a warrior culture, wouldn't it be in your Canadian forces?

00:34:37.840 Wouldn't it be in your military?

00:34:38.620 Like, seriously.

00:34:39.820 Anyway, so dealing with the sexual misconduct.

00:34:42.340 So I, you know, when it first came on in, and I'm going to say, without hesitation, there are predators in every organization.

00:34:49.820 And predators, they should be rooted out, prosecuted, and given the boot.

00:34:53.840 Absolutely.

00:34:54.980 Are, is every man that wore a uniform or are, even the majority, I never encountered it.

00:35:00.880 So, as I said, I joined in the early 80s.

00:35:04.180 Women were allowed in the military police for just a couple of years. 1.00

00:35:06.820 I was often the only woman in the truck, you know, in the tent, on the truck, whatever.

00:35:12.180 And it didn't happen to me. 0.97

00:35:13.700 Were there jerks? 0.97

00:35:14.620 Absolutely. 0.99

00:35:15.260 And there were women jerks that I worked with later, too. 1.00

00:35:17.720 But, but it just didn't happen. 0.98

00:35:19.580 And so what bothers me the most is when I hear this is not that it happened.

00:35:23.440 But first of all, they say that it happened and that nobody did anything about it.

00:35:27.980 And they had nowhere to turn that I have a real hard time with, because I can tell you that if a bunch of times when an inappropriate remark was made to me, I don't know about my, how I looked at my uniform or whatever.

00:35:40.000 As I, I took that remark in and I thought about it before I had a chance to respond, the guy next to me said, hey, buddy, that's not cool.

00:35:48.280 Right.

00:35:48.520 You know, and that happened all the time.

00:35:50.200 And that didn't happen just with Canadians.

00:35:51.520 That happened with our allies.

00:35:52.600 And I was very lucky to work with a lot of our allies.

00:35:55.300 And I, it just wasn't, if you have no experience with the military and you read, you know, the, the legacy media and you see it, like, you know, you wouldn't want your child anywhere near that organization because it's this, you know, misogynist, toxic.

00:36:09.900 Yeah.

00:36:10.060 Well, you see that now.

00:36:11.280 We all have friends who, you know, either their kids or, as we get older, maybe grandkids are considering the military.

00:36:18.580 Yeah, they're scared.

00:36:19.240 And you get this question, it, it, it, it's in our circle is you and the Catholic church.

00:36:24.380 Well, it's like, would you really, you know, is it, is it safe?

00:36:28.840 Yeah.

00:36:29.200 And I'm, it, it, it, it's gut-wrenching, A, to hear the question.

00:36:33.620 You can intellectualize the question and then you have to, as Barb is saying.

00:36:37.680 Oh, that's also got to be radically demoralizing, especially to the good people who aren't involved in this sort of thing.

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00:38:20.420 So we look at what's happened.

00:38:24.840 So, oh, we're going to root them out.

00:38:26.740 And what have we got so far?

00:38:27.840 We've got three senior officers that are thinking off the top of my head.

00:38:32.740 Gentlemen who are, were they found guilty?

00:38:35.480 No, they weren't.

00:38:36.240 But the careers and, you know, of Art McDonald, Danny Fortin, Steve Whelan are over.

00:38:42.200 And their family circumstances.

00:38:43.080 And their family circumstances.

00:38:44.520 And what happened?

00:38:45.320 Some historic weird event when everybody was drunk on a boat and nobody, and there's no witnesses.

00:38:50.200 But these men, they're done.

00:38:51.740 And I think that's, I think.

00:38:53.300 Well, drunk on a boat is also relevant, you know.

00:38:55.760 So I studied antisocial behavior in relationship to alcoholism for like 15 years.

00:39:01.680 And so one fact that you can lay on the table instantly is that if there was no drunk people,

00:39:07.300 there would be virtually no sexual assault.

00:39:09.240 Agreed.

00:39:09.680 So if you're actually serious about sexual assault on university campuses or in the military,

00:39:14.580 the first thing you would focus in isn't culture and it isn't personality.

00:39:18.360 It probably isn't even the predators.

00:39:21.260 It's probably alcohol.

00:39:22.960 So we addressed this like a long time ago.

00:39:26.040 Like, you know, I've been out for a long time, but I remember we had, it was called SHARP,

00:39:30.220 sexual harassment and racism prevention.

00:39:34.520 And these courses were in the early 80s.

00:39:36.580 And so it's not like this was, oh, look, we haven't done anything about it.

00:39:39.860 But we've been working, we've been going with the times since then and changing our culture.

00:39:45.060 And alcohol was a big part of the military culture in those days.

00:39:48.840 And that's changed.

00:39:49.880 That started changing even with the younger, you know, when fitness became a thing kind of.

00:39:54.960 And it stopped being like, but I can remember going to the mess and you had to drink, whatever.

00:39:59.960 And that changed.

00:40:01.300 So we have moved with the times.

00:40:02.600 But I, you know.

00:40:03.420 It doesn't mean these problems don't exist.

00:40:06.800 Yeah, of course.

00:40:07.840 But as you said, and you know, to Barb's point, how much of an emphasis and amplification

00:40:17.580 do we want to put on the existence of those problems?

00:40:20.400 Well, we might want to, first of all, demonstrate that they're real.

00:40:23.700 Like, and the way you do that is by a comparative analysis.

00:40:26.260 And I don't see any evidence of that.

00:40:27.820 So, the problem of sexual misconduct is real.

00:40:32.820 The problem of alcohol-fueled sexual misconduct is real.

00:40:36.340 Is that particularly typical of the armed forces in Canada?

00:40:40.000 I doubt it.

00:40:41.040 You'd need overwhelming proof before you made that your primary concern.

00:40:45.200 Now, on the alcohol side, too, I have a question about that.

00:40:47.960 You know, I was thinking about that a lot this week.

00:40:51.040 Because what alcohol does is it narrows your focus to the present.

00:40:55.960 And it makes you opaque to threats, essentially.

00:40:59.440 So, it's quite fun in that regard.

00:41:00.940 Because it allows you to be enthusiastic without any concern for the future. 0.99

00:41:05.420 Now, the problem with that is you tend to act like a jackass. 0.97

00:41:09.340 Now, but there's an advantage, too. 0.98

00:41:11.340 It's like, because I wonder about this.

00:41:12.720 When you have men and women who are on the front lines.

00:41:16.920 And they're putting their life at risk.

00:41:18.440 And they've been there for like a week and a half.

00:41:20.340 I used to think this about the oil riggers in Alberta, too.

00:41:22.600 They go off and they have a couple of days off.

00:41:25.180 And they want to blow off some steam.

00:41:26.640 And so, they have a riotous party. 1.00

00:41:28.660 And riotous parties are where stupid things happen. 0.98

00:41:31.880 But having said that, I don't exactly understand how much steam you do have to blow off in order to be able to tolerate the life that you're leading. 0.82

00:41:41.180 That high stress.

00:41:42.520 Anything is possible at a moment's notice life.

00:41:44.860 And so, I don't know how much off-duty discipline, let's say, it's reasonable and realistic to insist upon.

00:41:55.140 Now, you know, I've already said I know what alcohol contributes to these sorts of situations.

00:42:00.860 But by the same token, you know, it's like, how much do people need to let off steam?

00:42:06.320 And so, I'm kind of curious about what you think about that.

00:42:08.960 You've been around men in those situations for a very long time.

00:42:12.320 And I'll say again, I mean, you're right.

00:42:15.160 And it's whether it's in the officer's mess or the private's mess or the office Christmas party, that kind of stuff.

00:42:22.340 But so, I know.

00:42:24.200 And there was a lot of the drinking went on.

00:42:26.400 But honestly, I never felt threatened.

00:42:28.860 And so, you would be in a mess.

00:42:30.640 I'm thinking up in the Golan Heights, for example.

00:42:32.440 There's maybe 40 or 50.

00:42:33.700 And there's two girls, three girls, three women up there. 1.00

00:42:37.200 And I didn't see it.

00:42:40.860 I saw them getting, like, drinking too much, perhaps.

00:42:44.760 And then out came the arguments over the Maple Leafs versus the Canadians and singing the regimental songs.

00:42:51.100 And somebody got, you know, when the karaoke machines came out, it was bad news.

00:42:55.140 And then it was.

00:42:55.940 But you were still, if you're on a military base, there's still regulations, right?

00:42:58.840 The mess closes.

00:42:59.620 Everybody goes back and you're sleeping in your quarters.

00:43:01.820 And so, I honestly, I saw more sort of fistfights break out than I saw kind of a sexual, anything with a sexual overtone.

00:43:08.920 And things have changed since then as well, by the way.

00:43:11.260 I mean, you know, all our missions now are essentially, you don't drink.

00:43:15.300 They're dry missions.

00:43:16.560 Afghanistan was all dry, except when you got off the island, off the mission and went into Kuwait or wherever.

00:43:23.920 Ships are all dry now, right?

00:43:25.960 When they're at sea.

00:43:26.960 When they're at sea.

00:43:27.600 So, when they pull up into shore, then you have parties and you have so on and so forth.

00:43:32.140 Right, so that's been rectified.

00:43:33.080 So, things have changed a lot.

00:43:34.780 I mean, when I was commanding officer from, you know, 89 to 91, already started some young officers saying, well, no, I don't want to go to happy hour.

00:43:43.080 In my day, you know, when I was a young officer, it was, you know, on Friday nights, you go to happy hour.

00:43:47.920 Here's a beer.

00:43:48.500 Here's a cigarette.

00:43:49.260 You're going to smoke.

00:43:50.020 You're going to drink.

00:43:50.560 And that's still plenty.

00:43:51.700 You know, I'm exaggerating, obviously.

00:43:53.540 But by the time, you know, so early 90s, then, you know, young men and women were becoming more fit.

00:44:00.140 I said, no, I, you know, I'll have a glass of orange juice and that'd be just great.

00:44:03.680 And they, you know, it's six o'clock.

00:44:05.400 I'm going home.

00:44:05.980 That's it.

00:44:06.420 You know, in the old days, we'd party till 11 every Friday night.

00:44:09.100 So the evolution of, I say, generational evolution of these aspects of, let's call it the organizational culture, because I know you want to talk about culture to some degree.

00:44:23.400 They've evolved and they've evolved as much because of the participants in the culture as they have from organizational dictum.

00:44:35.320 You know, there's been a sense of, okay, we need to modernize this.

00:44:40.020 But a lot of people are finding other outlets for that letting off steam, as you characterized it.

00:44:46.640 A lot of it is, there is a lot of fitness.

00:44:49.160 It's different.

00:44:49.880 It's different as it is in society.

00:44:51.460 It's different.

00:44:51.820 But that doesn't mean it still doesn't happen. 0.99

00:44:53.780 It doesn't mean that people are still not going to get drunk and do stupid things. 0.99

00:44:57.220 Yeah. 1.00

00:44:57.400 But there's a difference between getting drunk and doing stupid things and getting drunk and doing nasty, malicious. 1.00

00:45:04.080 Exactly. 0.98

00:45:05.320 And that's where, and this is, it is hard in the premise of your, how do you make that distinction?

00:45:12.360 Well, you have to say, you have to establish expected norms of behavior and those evolve over time.

00:45:20.060 What was acceptable 30, 20 years ago is not necessarily acceptable, not because it's politically correct, but just because we've changed.

00:45:31.900 So, you know, drinking at sea, I use that as an example.

00:45:36.260 I was the one, in fact, that banned drinking at sea for a variety of reasons, including, and the way you characterized your previous research experience was, it was like deja vu.

00:45:50.240 It was the senior non-commissioned members of the Navy at a particular board meeting who said to me, Admiral, we're telling you 99% of our problems are alcohol related.

00:46:05.500 All this misconduct, you can bin it all into, if they weren't drunk at the time, the chances of them having done whatever it was, was pretty slim to none.

00:46:15.520 So there's, there's the, you know, there go my people.

00:46:19.560 I am their leader, so I must follow them.

00:46:21.820 This is what you, you were getting this from the, from the troops.

00:46:25.140 So the senior leadership, the, the, the senior non-commissioned are telling me we have a problem and we need you, admirals, wearing your big pants to do something about it.

00:46:37.020 So we said, okay, let's look at this.

00:46:38.860 Let's study it to the best we can in the context of our own little ecosystem.

00:46:42.760 And let's come up with some progressive approaches that didn't ban it entirely because that would be punitive and, and just silly.

00:46:52.080 And that doesn't just accept the status quo, but says, okay, you know what?

00:46:57.240 Drinking at sea is dangerous, first of all, because you're operating extreme.

00:47:02.080 It's like drink, it would be using your oil rig analogy.

00:47:04.980 They don't allow them to drink on an oil rig for very good reasons.

00:47:09.320 So they can keep their hands.

00:47:10.540 Right.

00:47:10.920 Or not kill somebody accidentally because they're drunk.

00:47:14.460 So let's, how about that as a thought process?

00:47:16.880 And yes, so that, that evolved over time.

00:47:19.880 But I think we also have to remember that the military, the armed forces are more generally conservative.

00:47:25.980 So for change to happen, they used to say, what was it?

00:47:30.100 It's the only thing harder than getting a new idea in the military mind is taking out an old idea, you know?

00:47:37.660 And it's, but, but it's true.

00:47:39.960 It changes slowly.

00:47:41.120 Or the Navy, hundreds of years tradition, not impeded by progress.

00:47:44.620 Exactly.

00:47:45.300 It's kind of, it's jokes.

00:47:47.040 But they're jokes, but they come from somewhere.

00:47:49.080 They come from somewhere.

00:47:50.260 And in fact, so, so you have to, but you know, you look at this evolution of alcohol and all that.

00:47:55.800 And it's, it's, and so is there a big culture change required?

00:48:00.700 I'm with Barbara.

00:48:01.800 I think, no, I think, you know, you need to make sure that people understand that, you know, that you have to, you know, respect others and in all kind of ways and everything.

00:48:14.520 And you root out those, those predators, but.

00:48:17.300 And you're not alone.

00:48:18.100 That was the big thing.

00:48:18.940 That's the hardest thing for me when I see on TV, when something happened, a victim says, this happened to me and there was nowhere to turn to.

00:48:25.780 And I, I have a real hard time with that because the military, okay, it's huge.

00:48:31.040 It's a family.

00:48:31.900 You've got, you've met people throughout your whole career.

00:48:34.020 Even if you've been in two or three years, you've got people you were on this course with or trained with.

00:48:37.500 And, and so your chain of command is not welcoming to your complaint.

00:48:41.500 It's a failure of leadership.

00:48:43.440 That, Barb, to your point, when you see these things, they are fundamentally failures in leadership.

00:48:51.160 So, so you pointed out very early on that you hadn't experienced the sorts of things.

00:48:55.720 Yes.

00:48:56.000 Okay.

00:48:56.200 But I'm wondering too, like, there is a cultural element to that, a sociological element, let's say, but there's also a personal element.

00:49:03.980 Like, I'll give you an example of this.

00:49:06.840 Because daughters of alcoholics are much more statistically likely to marry alcoholics.

00:49:12.840 Now, we don't know why that is.

00:49:15.400 We don't know if they find men who are drinking and because that they're accustomed to that, they pick those men.

00:49:21.360 Or we don't know if they covertly reinforce their husbands for drinking to the point where they become alcoholic.

00:49:27.440 But it's such a widespread phenomena that if you're doing genetic analysis of the transmission of alcoholism, you have to take into account this issue of assortative mating.

00:49:36.320 Okay, so now, the issue is, was there a manner in which you conducted yourself personally that made you less likely to be the target of such unwanted attention?

00:49:49.540 That might have to do with alcohol consumption.

00:49:51.880 And then also, is it reasonable to assume that your experience is emblematic of the experience of females in the military?

00:49:59.060 Or were you, for whatever reason, protected personally or more fortunate?

00:50:04.080 So, first of all, women that joined the military, I think, tend to be, well, certainly in my time, they tended to be, like, not everybody's going to want to join the military.

00:50:14.180 So, I think that maybe they're a little bit more outspoken.

00:50:16.540 I don't know.

00:50:17.520 I would say that, like, it didn't happen to me, but I didn't see it happening around me.

00:50:21.700 And I was close to a lot of women in the military. 1.00

00:50:24.760 And nobody...

00:50:25.080 And you were there early.

00:50:25.900 Yeah, but nobody came, like, even at the end of my career, when I was in NDHQ, and, like, nobody were...

00:50:32.080 I didn't hear about people saying, this happened to me, you know, what are we going to do about it?

00:50:35.580 I think that the majority of women, it didn't happen to. 1.00

00:50:39.260 And I think that the ones that did, yes, absolutely, they should, you know, seek justice.

00:50:44.020 But I also think that to say there was nowhere to go, I mean, you had your peers, you had your, the Padres.

00:50:50.940 We have Padres that doors open all the time.

00:50:52.820 You had a medical staff, you had somebody that you worked with on a course, you had...

00:50:58.200 There were so many avenues that you could go through.

00:50:59.760 Physical training instructors, yeah.

00:51:00.760 Yeah, and the physical training guys there, and girls.

00:51:04.080 Like, there were so many places that you could go for help.

00:51:07.100 I find it astonishing when I hear, this happened to me, and it happened to me over, and I had nowhere to turn to.

00:51:12.880 That, I really have a hard time with that.

00:51:15.840 So now, when you entered the military, what response, what response did you get from the men?

00:51:24.200 Well, okay, so we do, and we put out, okay, so nowadays you wouldn't have, like our lockers in the military police, like it wasn't a changing locker, but we kept our gun in there and like, you know, our ticket books and all that sort of stuff.

00:51:35.600 So you were never there undressed, but, so we were all together, men and women.

00:51:39.260 And there wasn't one locker that didn't have Miss January or whatever, you know, in the thing.

00:51:44.840 So nowadays, that's just not cool.

00:51:46.740 And so I responded to that by going, get a member of Burt Reynolds in Cosmopolitan, and I put him up in my locker, and we never had a problem with that again.

00:51:55.540 You know, like it just, you know, the guy said, I'm not looking at thought every day, so well, and then that was it.

00:51:59.620 And then, and it took a while, but I think that, I didn't, I don't think it was hostile.

00:52:04.720 I think it was more, they didn't know how to act.

00:52:07.480 I had a flat tire once in my police car in Edmonton.

00:52:09.840 You know how cold it is there?

00:52:10.940 A flat tire.

00:52:11.980 Nope, I know how to change the tire, so I'm changing the tire.

00:52:14.240 And I do see another military police car go by.

00:52:16.480 Fine, change the tire.

00:52:17.260 I come in, the usual ribbing, you know, just like the guys would get.

00:52:20.500 But this one military police corporal, he's waiting.

00:52:23.840 He's waiting at the end really, and he says, Barbara, he said, listen, he said, I drove past you today.

00:52:27.520 I said, yeah, I saw you, and he said, I didn't know what to do.

00:52:30.700 Right, right.

00:52:31.200 He said, if he had been Mike, I would have stopped to help him.

00:52:33.520 Yeah, right.

00:52:34.000 But I thought you were going to say, oh, you think I can't do this?

00:52:36.480 Yeah, right.

00:52:36.920 He didn't, I don't, I didn't know what to do.

00:52:38.140 And I said, next time, stop the effing car kind of thing.

00:52:40.680 And we were cool after that, right?

00:52:42.160 And, and, but that was the kind of things that I was, they didn't really know what to do.

00:52:45.740 They didn't really know how to deal with it.

00:52:47.340 And, and this idea that we're, men and women are interchangeable.

00:52:51.360 I have a hard time with that too.

00:52:52.780 Okay, so I want to delve into that.

00:52:54.220 I have a hard time with that, so go ahead.

00:52:56.020 Well, let's talk, let's talk a little bit about that.

00:52:59.740 So I might as well get myself in trouble right off the bat.

00:53:02.700 So I spent a lot of time in academia, and I could see it tilting in the manner that it

00:53:09.280 has tilted the same manner that in principle, the military is now predetermined to tilt on

00:53:14.600 the cultural side.

00:53:15.880 And I've been trying to sort out exactly why that is.

00:53:18.320 Now, I've seen a lot of infantilization of students, a lot, like way too much, and infantilization

00:53:26.560 of faculty for that matter.

00:53:28.380 And so, and then I wonder, like, if you introduce women en masse into an administrative institution, 0.65

00:53:36.460 to what degree does that infantilize the situation?

00:53:39.860 And like, I don't know the answer to that.

00:53:41.480 Neither does anyone else, because we haven't introduced women en masse into administrative

00:53:45.460 institutions before about the last 60 years.

00:53:48.280 So we have no idea exactly what's going to happen.

00:53:50.920 And you, so there's going to be female social pathologies, just like there are male social 1.00

00:53:55.280 pathologies.

00:53:56.120 And infantilization seems to me to be a very high probability outcome.

00:54:00.740 So now, and that's definitely not something that you want in the military.

00:54:04.100 It's bad enough in academic institutions.

00:54:06.240 And you just also pointed out that you don't believe that men and women are interchangeable.

00:54:11.940 Now, I have a gut reaction to women on, in frontline combat. 1.00

00:54:18.840 Now, for a variety of reasons, I think the primary reason is the consequences for women 1.00

00:54:23.880 if they get captured as prisoners of war.

00:54:26.820 That just doesn't seem to me to be.

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00:55:39.980 That's not an acceptable situation as far as I can see.

00:55:43.160 I could be convinced otherwise.

00:55:44.800 But you've been in the military a very long time and you believe that there are intractable

00:55:49.620 differences, let's say, between men and women. 0.74

00:55:51.400 Absolutely.

00:55:51.700 And I obviously like your gentleman's opinion on this too.

00:55:56.340 Women are half the workforce and they're half the intellectual power. 1.00

00:55:59.720 And being able to capitalize on what women have to offer is a major deal. 0.99

00:56:03.000 We know that more educated women have more educated children. 0.99

00:56:05.860 That's not true for men, by the way.

00:56:07.800 So it's female educational attainment that predicts children's educational attainment, 1.00

00:56:12.880 not male.

00:56:13.380 And we know that countries that educate women and that make their inclusion in the workforce

00:56:18.820 a priority are much more likely to thrive economically.

00:56:22.080 So we know all that.

00:56:23.020 But we don't know exactly how to integrate men and women, for example, into the military

00:56:27.480 because that's a tough nut to crack.

00:56:29.160 So what has your experience taught you about that?

00:56:31.500 What role can women play well or better even possibly? 1.00

00:56:34.400 I think that, so women, when I joined, I think we were coming up on 10%.

00:56:39.760 And since then, this 25% women has been bandied about forever. 1.00

00:56:43.800 And we maxed out at, I think, 15, 16% where we are now and we're not getting any more than that.

00:56:48.820 Yeah.

00:56:49.220 So it's like engineering in that regard.

00:56:50.820 So what do I think?

00:56:52.600 So I think that women, there's a role for women. 1.00

00:56:54.600 But to say that you can interchange, you can take the guy out of the battalion off the ship

00:57:00.080 and just replace him with a woman, that's not always true.

00:57:03.060 And I believe that.

00:57:04.020 And I think, for me, it comes down to meritocracy in the specific element, trade that you have.

00:57:12.160 So military police, here we go again.

00:57:14.000 So we have living quarters on the base.

00:57:17.400 So there's children, there's women, wives, whatever, and things happen.

00:57:20.740 So we still had the airborne school.

00:57:23.040 So when there was a bar fight, for example, and there was a lot of them,

00:57:26.540 I am quite certain that if we are honest with each other,

00:57:30.880 you are rather going to have one of you as a partner going into a bar fight than me.

00:57:36.400 And you know what?

00:57:37.360 Me too.

00:57:38.120 Thank you.

00:57:38.580 I would rather not have another woman as a partner. 1.00

00:57:42.260 However, we also had things like a sexual assault or an abusive relationship

00:57:48.780 or a child who was assaulted.

00:57:51.520 And then in that instance, I'm pretty sure that you guys might rather have me come to make the first

00:57:55.700 to talk to the woman who's been beaten up or the child who's been abused.

00:57:59.640 And so there's room for both.

00:58:01.280 And this idea, though—

00:58:01.980 What about on the foreign relations and diplomatic front?

00:58:04.840 Are there roles that women play in the military that are— 1.00

00:58:06.980 Yeah, and unfortunately, though, we go there assuming that everybody's as wonderful and free as we are.

00:58:12.040 Yeah.

00:58:12.340 So, you know, I went to Syria.

00:58:13.960 I was negotiating the million-dollar contracts.

00:58:16.820 And they wouldn't talk to me because I had a UN uniform on, but I was a woman.

00:58:21.120 Yeah.

00:58:21.460 And it was, you know, so I had to go get my little driver, my 18-year-old Newfoundland driver.

00:58:26.780 And he had to come in and he's,

00:58:27.960 Ma'am, I don't know if I should be signing these.

00:58:29.420 Just sign them, you know, because they refused to deal with us.

00:58:32.260 Right, right, right.

00:58:33.200 And so you're still dealing with that.

00:58:34.240 Okay, so that's a disadvantage.

00:58:35.460 Yeah, that's a disadvantage.

00:58:35.600 What about on the advantage side in foreign relations and on the battlefield?

00:58:40.600 I would say in foreign relations, I would say that we were a novelty still to a lot of different—

00:58:46.620 like the Poles, the Polish battalion, we were a bit of a novelty, even in the Austrians.

00:58:51.040 And so they would—and men, traditionally, and I'm going to say this,

00:58:55.120 I'm going to make a blanket comment, that the majority of men are still there,

00:58:58.580 kind of the gentlemen, like they're going to want to open, pull out the chair a few,

00:59:02.100 not sit down.

00:59:03.120 And so, I mean, if you were smart, you used that to your advantage.

00:59:06.460 I know I did.

00:59:07.820 And it was, you know, and then I think that women, they calm things down a bit too. 0.98

00:59:15.600 Like if there's an argument going on and there's, you know, the Austrians are fighting,

00:59:18.620 we had the Austrians and the Poles were always fighting.

00:59:20.760 Then when the women came in to sit down, the men sort of toned it down

00:59:23.320 because they were gentlemen inherently.

00:59:25.120 And so that was an advantage for women. 1.00

00:59:27.100 When you look at a problem or you have an issue, and whether it's a, you know,

00:59:33.100 strategic, operational, tactical issue or whatever, you will want to get as many opinions as possible.

00:59:39.740 You want to consult if you have time.

00:59:41.280 Let's say if you're trying to take a hill over, you sometimes don't have time.

00:59:44.600 But if you're considering an issue, a problem, a challenge,

00:59:49.040 it's always going to be good to have different ways of viewing that issue

00:59:53.340 and getting different opinions on how to solve that issue.

00:59:57.120 Having women in the forces is a strength. 0.74

00:59:59.140 I mean, there's no doubt about it.

01:00:01.100 The issue that comes to what you're talking about, combat roles, you know,

01:00:05.320 on a ship, in a submarine, fighter aircraft.

01:00:09.780 I mean, I think it's very difficult.

01:00:13.260 But in my view, if a woman wants to do it, who the heck am I to say she can't? 0.92

01:00:17.540 If she meets the standards, that's just great. 0.59

01:00:20.400 But she has to meet the standard.

01:00:21.680 Now, what I do, the second order effect of that, though, is...

01:00:26.260 So what do you do when people say, well, if the standards discriminate against women,

01:00:29.820 then the standards are sexist?

01:00:31.460 Because that would certainly be the case for upper body strength, for example, generally speaking.

01:00:35.160 Yeah, but there are jobs where you need the upper body strength.

01:00:38.120 Yeah, I know.

01:00:38.820 Okay, so to be in the armored corps, to lift a, you know, 100-pound, you know, bullet, round,

01:00:45.680 you know, you need the strength to be able to do it.

01:00:47.860 I'm sure in the Navy, there's lots of those kinds of jobs.

01:00:52.400 But what I was going to say is that the second order effect is on the leadership.

01:00:57.080 Now, the young sergeant and the young lieutenant now has to command, you know,

01:01:02.100 his section of 10 people, some of which are women.

01:01:05.820 And it's now he or she has to have, and sometimes it's a she that's going to command that, 1.00

01:01:10.300 has to have a different kind of approach.

01:01:12.860 You can't, you can't, can't be the old sergeant of the old days or get down, get me a bunch of push-ups

01:01:17.500 and that's it, you know, and dirt bag and all.

01:01:19.540 Yeah.

01:01:19.960 It's, it's a different story.

01:01:21.340 So those are challenges that now I, I never had to, you know, I got out 15 years ago.

01:01:25.940 So I, I never actually, you know, had, was faced with that, but, but it's, it's a different challenge today.

01:01:32.280 You see, I, I, I see this and I, at the risk of oversimplifying it,

01:01:36.840 it's kind of like a Venn diagram in my head.

01:01:40.740 So you've got what I would describe as the technical skills of whatever the, the trade, the occupation.

01:01:49.340 Then there are the physical requirements, which might be as much what we would call in our business environmental.

01:01:57.720 So they're different when you're, when you're in a tank or you're in a, it's different than being on a ship.

01:02:02.540 But there are, there are physical requirements that are there.

01:02:06.400 And then there's this, I would argue, ill-defined sense of the social part of it.

01:02:14.420 I'm just going to put social in quotes because I'm not, I'm not educated in that regard,

01:02:20.760 but it's all this other stuff and it's where the, all the other stuff gets weird because

01:02:26.820 people either don't know how to deal with it and you can have all the training you want,

01:02:31.760 but there are realities to these social dimensions.

01:02:35.440 They're not just gender specific, but there are social aspects to how militaries function.

01:02:43.720 And some people are very skilled at those, maybe not as physical, very technical skilled.

01:02:49.900 Other people are very strong, very technically skilled, but have social issues.

01:02:56.700 And I don't know, it's a very, I go back to, none of these things are, in my view,

01:03:02.640 none of these things are as black and white as some, they're very complex issues.

01:03:07.140 Well, so for example, you mentioned that the Canadian military has topped out at about 15% females

01:03:13.280 and that that's become, that's quite intractable.

01:03:16.000 Okay.

01:03:16.300 So exactly the same thing is the case among engineers in the Scandinavian countries.

01:03:23.220 They've gone farther than any other countries on the planet to equalize gender opportunities,

01:03:29.520 but there are intractable differences on the engineering side and on the nursing side.

01:03:33.860 Okay.

01:03:34.080 So now you might ask why that is.

01:03:36.420 Now, men and women are pretty much the same in terms of raw cognitive ability.

01:03:41.020 The male curve might be a little flatter.

01:03:43.260 So there might be more extreme male geniuses and males who have cognitive problems.

01:03:47.880 There's some debate about that.

01:03:49.180 Men and women are about equal in conscientiousness, which is the next best predictor, say, for

01:03:54.080 administrative, managerial and military jobs.

01:03:57.320 But men and women differ radically in their interests.

01:04:01.600 It's the biggest difference between men and women. 0.88

01:04:03.600 And men are much more likely than women to be interested in things and women much more

01:04:08.180 than men to be interested in people.

01:04:10.360 And that's a major determinant of occupational choice.

01:04:13.100 And it really stands out in the difference between engineers, thing-oriented, and nurses,

01:04:18.720 people-oriented.

01:04:19.840 And so given the nature of the military, the engineering-like nature of the military, the

01:04:26.100 probability that without undue force, we're going to get to 50% women strikes me as zero.

01:04:32.080 Now, and the idea that the ideologues have that that's a cultural issue is nonsense.

01:04:36.900 Because the other thing that's been demonstrated in Scandinavia, this is so cool, imagine you

01:04:43.600 rank-ordered nations by how egalitarian their social policies are.

01:04:47.700 Okay, now you look at them in terms of differences between male and female in occupational choice.

01:04:54.480 Okay, the biggest differences are in the most egalitarian countries.

01:04:58.200 So if you free women and men up so that there aren't systemic barriers to their movement into

01:05:05.240 an occupation, the occupational differences magnify.

01:05:08.620 They don't decrease, right?

01:05:10.260 And that's, I think that's an unshakable finding, right?

01:05:13.720 So there's no amount of cultural gerrymandering that's going to bring women up to 50% in the 1.00

01:05:18.660 military. 0.98

01:05:19.200 It's a foolish goal. 0.99

01:05:20.380 And it's based on a misapprehension of how human beings function. 0.99

01:05:24.300 The ideologues think we're all socially constructed.

01:05:27.000 And that's nonsense.

01:05:28.400 If you flatten the playing field, men and women maximize in their differences. 1.00

01:05:33.120 So, and that's what you'd expect for people who are pursuing their destiny freely and in

01:05:38.840 accordance with their own interests.

01:05:40.160 And it does seem to be interest.

01:05:42.040 We don't exactly know what interest is, you know, from a scientific perspective, why women 1.00

01:05:47.240 would tilt towards people, you know, except broad.

01:05:50.360 Nurturing, the nurturing thing, right?

01:05:52.060 Well, yeah, right.

01:05:52.200 The women that... 1.00

01:05:52.460 But we don't know how that manifests itself, say, in day-to-day choices, exactly.

01:05:56.620 Which is, I find a bit ironic in some respects, because if you were, from an insider's perspective,

01:06:06.140 if you were to characterize the military...

01:06:08.800 Don't care for people, Mike.

01:06:09.960 Well, in theory, okay, we would describe ourselves as a people-centric organization, which is fascinating.

01:06:21.000 Yeah.

01:06:21.440 Yeah, sure, there's a lot of stuff, a lot of things, a lot of kids.

01:06:24.900 Well, it's fraternal.

01:06:26.440 Right.

01:06:27.100 And so, you know, I just, I was quite struck by what you said.

01:06:31.020 Yeah, well, I think there's a difference between...

01:06:33.160 Tells me we're doing something fundamentally wrong.

01:06:35.080 Well, no, I...

01:06:35.540 Well, I think there's fraternal hierarchy, and there's community of care, and I don't think

01:06:41.760 those are the same thing.

01:06:42.800 Okay.

01:06:43.240 Yeah, yeah.

01:06:44.040 So men, like men can organize themselves, but when men organize themselves, they organize 0.99

01:06:48.600 themselves into hierarchies, right?

01:06:51.940 But the best...

01:06:52.680 And so that's not a community of care, exactly.

01:06:55.100 The best leaders, I think, obviously, will have care for their people.

01:06:59.240 Yeah.

01:06:59.620 I mean, and that whole nurturing thing, I think, is not just a part of the women, but you're 0.91

01:07:03.820 right, perhaps, you know, what do you call it?

01:07:07.220 Comes in with men, it comes in mentoring.

01:07:09.200 Right.

01:07:09.600 It comes in mentoring, and I think the best leaders who care for their people and, you

01:07:13.080 know, want to, you know, see them do well, and I always described, you know, sometimes

01:07:18.080 being in charge and being with your team, there's this...

01:07:21.780 I describe it as love, actually.

01:07:23.420 Yeah, yeah.

01:07:23.740 You know, and I loved my people that I...

01:07:25.840 When I commanded them and that I had in my group, and, you know, sometimes people are

01:07:30.200 kind of, you know, love.

01:07:31.620 Yeah, well, it's a kind of love.

01:07:32.700 Yeah, yeah.

01:07:32.860 You want to hug them, you want to, you know, keep...

01:07:34.900 So I talked to Jocko Willink, who's a Navy SEAL, and we've talked three or four times,

01:07:39.960 and Jocko, he's about like three feet thick.

01:07:44.140 He's like a man's man. 0.97

01:07:45.620 Yeah.

01:07:45.800 That's for sure.

01:07:46.580 Yeah.

01:07:46.780 And Jocko wanted to be a soldier from the time he was like three.

01:07:50.000 Okay.

01:07:50.280 You know, he's blowing things up when he was three.

01:07:52.080 And he told me, quite frankly, that, you know, he was a pretty rough adolescent, and he could

01:07:57.020 have taken a criminal pathway.

01:07:58.800 But he went to the military, and one of the things that he found very rapidly was that

01:08:03.240 opportunity to mentor was the best thing he'd ever found in his whole life.

01:08:06.760 And that ethos of care among men does seem to make itself manifest in that mentoring.

01:08:12.640 And I think that's, I hope my people do well, is different than I want to protect my people.

01:08:19.520 Right.

01:08:19.820 Right?

01:08:20.020 I mean, you do want to protect them, but it's not the same emphasis, right?

01:08:23.560 There's an encouragement emphasis in that that's, I think, more characteristic also of

01:08:27.720 the role men play in a family, right?

01:08:29.920 Because men are, for example, men specialize in rough and tumble play with their kids.

01:08:33.980 It's rougher.

01:08:35.040 And it's more encouraging.

01:08:37.300 It's less sheltering and nurturing.

01:08:39.580 Yeah.

01:08:39.920 And the mission is important too, though, right?

01:08:42.080 Like when, like looking after your people or doing, like our number one priority has to

01:08:46.800 be the mission.

01:08:47.860 Yeah, right.

01:08:48.240 Whatever your mission is.

01:08:49.440 And so sometimes, you know, you're going to have to send somebody home because they're

01:08:52.780 not, you know, great guy, you want to look after him or whatever, but the mission

01:08:56.340 comes first.

01:08:56.900 Yeah, right.

01:08:57.440 And those are decisions then that the nurturing goes out the window, whatever you, the hierarchy,

01:09:02.100 it's the mission is the most important.

01:09:03.260 Yeah.

01:09:03.600 And that's a rough one.

01:09:05.000 That is a tough one.

01:09:05.940 And that goes back to something you said a while ago with respect to, again, I'm paraphrasing.

01:09:12.920 There's a tension between the desire to do all of these progressive things and the fundamental

01:09:19.400 purpose of the institution.

01:09:20.940 The institution is mission focused.

01:09:23.540 If it's not mission focused, then why do you have it?

01:09:26.900 Right, right.

01:09:27.800 Militaries exist to fight.

01:09:29.540 Yeah.

01:09:29.920 Okay?

01:09:30.500 Yeah.

01:09:31.920 If you define it to do something else.

01:09:35.820 Or to be intimidating enough to make fighting unnecessary.

01:09:38.620 Well, yeah, exactly.

01:09:39.860 They're a deterrent.

01:09:40.860 Yeah.

01:09:41.440 But, and so this notion, and you said it earlier, Barb, you know, it's like, well, you can't

01:09:47.240 have, you can't have both.

01:09:49.080 You know, the warrior culture is in and of itself.

01:09:53.760 And we have this on record.

01:09:55.700 And we have very prominent Canadians who have written reports saying that this is the heart

01:10:01.740 of the problem.

01:10:03.200 Hang on.

01:10:04.340 Right.

01:10:04.880 Time out.

01:10:06.440 Yeah.

01:10:07.960 The mission is the heart of the problem.

01:10:10.220 Right.

01:10:10.560 That's a problem.

01:10:11.340 Well, it's how, it may be, there may be a whole bunch of issues around how things are

01:10:16.980 being done.

01:10:17.900 I'm open to that conversation.

01:10:19.980 But the notion that this is at its, at its primordial level, a fundamental problem, then

01:10:27.000 you're not talking about a military.

01:10:28.520 Yeah.

01:10:28.640 And this goes to some of us.

01:10:30.180 Or a country.

01:10:30.720 I know you want to.

01:10:31.440 Yeah.

01:10:31.700 No, but I really think you've hit the nail right on the head here.

01:10:35.300 You've talked, here's the problem, is that we have now put more emphasis on all those

01:10:40.340 DEI principles in the military.

01:10:42.400 And I think they've been, by the way, they've been, and, you know, it was really her idea,

01:10:47.020 but I'm using it, that it's been forced on the Canadian forces, the military, by the

01:10:53.720 government.

01:10:54.240 Yeah.

01:10:54.580 This progressive ideology and radical progressive ideology that this government, and, you know,

01:11:01.000 I'm not here to talk politically, but that's what I think has happened.

01:11:04.480 And so the forces are having to react to that.

01:11:07.180 And unfortunately, that has taken priority over military effectiveness, military operational

01:11:13.080 capability.

01:11:14.380 And even though a lot of our leaders are trying to stay focused on that, people like, you

01:11:18.680 know, our commander of the Canadian Joint Operations, you know, command, you know, he's

01:11:24.160 focused on operational capability.

01:11:26.880 And he's having to, he's forced to react to all this DEI business.

01:11:31.820 And teamwork.

01:11:32.260 I mean, the military, it's a team.

01:11:35.040 And so, and yet now all of a sudden this, the emphasis is on, is on.

01:11:39.660 The individual.

01:11:40.360 Individual.

01:11:40.920 Yeah, right.

01:11:41.380 You know, and you don't even look like, like, and I, and I think what is wrong with looking

01:11:44.960 like the uniform should be uniform?

01:11:46.720 Like, you know, the guy for the Montreal Canadiens, I'm going to wear my away uniform tonight.

01:11:50.540 I'm going to wear my home.

01:11:51.360 You know, you're all going to wear the same uniform because we're on the same team.

01:11:53.900 And so we've gone away from that.

01:11:55.440 And now you're, and now we've taken, you know, meritocracy out so that we can fill

01:12:00.320 these imaginary quotas of what is it?

01:12:02.440 0.0 through 3.2% of the population.

01:12:05.280 We need to have a representative of this.

01:12:06.900 Well, I don't know about you, but a $30 million jet, I want the best person to fly it.

01:12:10.680 I don't want, because he fits this quota or she or they, I guess, whatever it is, they 0.98

01:12:15.060 fit this quota and, and, and, and how, and how then are you going to feel when you are

01:12:21.500 the best pilot, but you don't get chosen because you don't fit.

01:12:23.860 Properly demoralized.

01:12:25.140 That's, you don't fit the DEI.

01:12:27.000 You don't fit a certain quota.

01:12:28.400 You don't fit. 0.64

01:12:28.940 And okay, for as long as we've been around, 71% of the Canadian military are white males.

01:12:35.580 They are our warrior cultures.

01:12:37.800 They are the guys who, you know, rough, rough neck, whatever you want to call it.

01:12:41.700 The farmer's sons, the fishermen's sons.

01:12:45.060 The guys, you know, and they join the military.

01:12:47.020 And so how, and we'd spend not a penny recruiting to these guys.

01:12:51.380 It's worse than that, by the way.

01:12:52.920 It's worse than that.

01:12:54.220 We know that the best predictor on the personality side for military prowess is conscientiousness.

01:12:59.520 Okay.

01:13:00.580 Conscientious people are meritocratic based, right?

01:13:03.860 That's their hierarchy of value.

01:13:05.660 So if you, if you're trying to get conscientious people into the military, which you need to

01:13:10.020 do if you're going to have a military, then the best way to dissuade them is to

01:13:14.620 set up an anti-meritocratic operation.

01:13:17.860 Because they can't stand that.

01:13:19.260 They, they're the guys that are going to want to go into the military and incrementally improve

01:13:25.240 so they can advance forward through the ranks in a dutiful, patriotic, orderly, and industrial,

01:13:31.240 industrious manner.

01:13:32.480 That's conscientiousness.

01:13:33.800 And so, and that uniformity, it's the same with business suits.

01:13:38.380 Like the idea was, because a business suit is a modified military uniform, the idea was

01:13:43.360 to signal that you're putting aside your own individual idiosyncrasies for your fellow

01:13:51.300 platoon members, let's say, and the mission, right?

01:13:54.340 Right.

01:13:54.540 And so it's not like you're trivial because you're not, but your concerns are not the

01:13:59.260 concerns of the platoon or the mission and you wear the uniform to signify that.

01:14:03.500 And if you can't make that sacrifice, if you're unwilling to, then well, go do your

01:14:07.860 own thing.

01:14:08.780 It's not like we have a draft.

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01:15:16.700 Well, and you know, you can demonstrate your individuality when you're in the military,

01:15:24.160 but do it outside those times when you're wearing the uniform.

01:15:28.000 You know, if you want to wear an earring when you're on leave, well, go, you know, enjoy

01:15:31.560 yourself and all that.

01:15:33.060 You know, that's got nothing to do with sexual orientation or any of this business.

01:15:36.380 I'm talking uniforms specifically.

01:15:38.240 And so all those things, forcing the DEI, the emphasis on individuality over team, that

01:15:45.580 is having a huge impact on morale in the military.

01:15:48.240 Yeah, well, and how do you know that?

01:15:49.980 Well, because-

01:15:50.960 Recruitment would be one issue.

01:15:52.000 We've seen, we've seen actually the Canadian chaplain general has actually gone out and

01:15:57.500 spoken, you know, all his padres have gone out and he's come back and he's, you know,

01:16:01.860 I think this about a year ago that he said morale is shot.

01:16:05.660 I'm getting, I'm getting information from-

01:16:08.280 That in and of itself is a significant data point.

01:16:10.900 Well, right.

01:16:11.460 I'm getting information from-

01:16:12.360 But you believe this is reliable.

01:16:13.920 Chaplain general.

01:16:15.080 It's a huge thing.

01:16:15.920 Okay.

01:16:16.180 This is institutional.

01:16:18.440 This has been typically a very private organization that is focused on spiritual well-being, morale,

01:16:25.900 all of these, all of these extremely important but subjective aspects of the institution to

01:16:33.640 go public and say-

01:16:34.840 When he writes a report to the chief of defense staff, this is a big frigging deal.

01:16:39.520 On top of that, I'm getting, and you probably do as well, from former or serving officers

01:16:46.180 and soldiers who write to me and say, hey, listen, you know, morale is horrible.

01:16:51.120 There are organizations now run by veterans, young veterans, who kind of tell them, you know,

01:16:57.500 I'll tell all those serving who can't speak out publicly, but they want to gather the information.

01:17:02.120 And the information I am getting right now is that morale is shot.

01:17:06.480 One of the reasons is because they see our senior leaders serving senior leaders, not

01:17:11.620 fighting back against this process that the government is forcing on the military.

01:17:16.980 It takes out their faith in the leadership.

01:17:18.260 So it takes out their faith in the leadership. 0.98

01:17:19.720 They're saying, holy crap, you know, and okay, you're going to have the odd one who likes 0.94

01:17:23.580 to have his hair long, fine. 0.93

01:17:25.840 But, you know, when I joined, I had my hair down to my shoulders.

01:17:28.580 I had my, you know, a haircut.

01:17:29.980 I got a bust cut and everything.

01:17:31.500 Plus, they're not seeing-

01:17:32.160 It was understood.

01:17:32.840 They're not seeing public support.

01:17:35.000 They're not seeing overt signals from the political leadership that what they do actually

01:17:42.540 matters because the political leadership is focused on those other metrics.

01:17:48.320 Yeah.

01:17:48.680 The importance of service.

01:17:50.600 Okay.

01:17:50.800 So when the prime minister and minister Blair brought out the defense policy update, you

01:17:56.200 read what the prime minister said.

01:17:58.220 Did he, at any time in that speech, talk about the importance of service, the honor of serving

01:18:04.780 your country, that it's a great place to actually, you know, do something for yourself, but also

01:18:11.080 for others and so on.

01:18:12.360 The fundamental purpose, why the armed forces-

01:18:14.440 Again, those are all conscientiousness-related virtues.

01:18:17.660 Well, so here's something interesting on the political side, eh?

01:18:20.600 So what tilts you towards a progressive radicalism is high openness, creativity, and low

01:18:28.220 conscientiousness.

01:18:29.840 What tilts you towards a conservative orientation-

01:18:31.840 So there's no rules, basically.

01:18:33.320 Do whatever you want.

01:18:33.920 Well, the idea there would be is that your best, that's- I mean, think about it as an

01:18:39.740 ecological niche.

01:18:41.120 So for those people, the ecological niche is all that territory that hasn't been ordered

01:18:45.980 or the space where rules could be changed or bent, the space of novelty.

01:18:51.320 And like, that's a great space to occupy if you happen to be creative.

01:18:54.200 But you're not a rule follower.

01:18:56.300 You tend not to be particularly patriotic.

01:18:58.500 You're not dutiful.

01:18:59.280 You're not conscientious.

01:19:00.300 You're not orderly.

01:19:01.160 There's no loyalty.

01:19:02.400 There's no sense of-

01:19:03.220 Well, not with openness specifically.

01:19:05.400 No, that comes with conscientiousness.

01:19:07.300 And, you know, the fact that you didn't see any testimony, let's say, to those virtues

01:19:11.720 in that speech is an indication of the temperament of the person and the political party that

01:19:16.580 offered those, because that isn't what they see as valuable.

01:19:19.420 And that's hard on conscientiousness.

01:19:22.160 And this is not, you know, the Liberal Party.

01:19:24.280 This is the government of Canada, okay?

01:19:26.440 So I mean, agnostically, you know, this is our boss.

01:19:30.840 This is the guy who runs the country.

01:19:32.620 And if he doesn't think service is important, if he doesn't think that service, honorable

01:19:37.940 service in the military is important, well, you know, it permeates from there.

01:19:42.100 Oh, yeah, definitely.

01:19:42.700 Because the rank and file are struggling with all of these issues that we've been discussing,

01:19:47.620 plus the realities that they're being asked to be away from their families.

01:19:51.780 Yeah.

01:19:52.260 Their equipment is rusting. 1.00

01:19:55.060 Crap, crap. 1.00

01:19:55.400 And- 1.00

01:19:56.160 They can always buy new equipment themselves.

01:19:58.520 Yeah.

01:19:58.860 Right.

01:19:59.980 Yeah.

01:20:00.520 They don't feel that the institutional leadership, organizational leadership is focused on the

01:20:08.640 right things.

01:20:09.440 And that, I mean, that exists in every organization when you're at the bottom and you're looking

01:20:13.060 up, you know, the tree full of monkeys.

01:20:14.860 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:20:15.100 The tree full of monkeys, what are you looking at?

01:20:17.100 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:20:17.900 Yeah, exactly.

01:20:18.200 Yeah, yeah, exactly.

01:20:18.220 You know, Kizassas, right?

01:20:19.120 Yeah, yeah.

01:20:19.540 But the notion being that they're, all of these things are contributing to a malaise.

01:20:27.540 Okay, so I want to-

01:20:28.820 So just before we go, so now coming back to General Carignan being appointed, she has to leave

01:20:36.760 this stuff behind now.

01:20:38.140 If she wants to start making an impact immediately on the troops and that, she's going to have 1.00

01:20:43.200 to now focus on, you know, maybe what we have not been focused on.

01:20:48.260 You know, the institutional, she's now the head of the institutional leadership in the 0.65

01:20:52.700 armed forces.

01:20:53.120 Behind the culture changes.

01:20:54.780 Yeah, exactly.

01:20:55.680 So she has a huge challenge in front of her, you know, and it's going to be interesting

01:20:59.680 to see what happens.

01:21:00.080 And the challenge is, will she be given the mandate, the authority, and the resources

01:21:04.560 that are necessary to, use a nautical term, to right the ship?

01:21:08.340 Right.

01:21:08.580 Because if not, then we will have squandered an incredible opportunity, which is to take

01:21:15.480 a great leader who is a warrior, who has demonstrated her professional competence, and happens both

01:21:21.800 positively and negatively to be wearing the bridle of first female to do the job, and we

01:21:29.980 potentially squander it because the institution, for other reasons, will be no better off at

01:21:35.880 the end of her watch than it was at the beginning.

01:21:37.800 Well, so it sounds like, it sounds like the three of you have some faith in her fundamental

01:21:41.760 abilities.

01:21:42.840 Well, we, we know her to some degree.

01:21:45.960 She's a classmate of Barbara's.

01:21:47.200 Yeah.

01:21:47.540 From military college.

01:21:48.760 And so what I, so one of the things that I liked about, that I admired about Jenny in

01:21:53.080 the early days is back in the day, for some reason, it seemed if you were a woman in the

01:21:57.160 military and you wanted to succeed in this man's world, well, you better start looking like

01:22:01.480 one and talking like one.

01:22:03.060 And there was these women and they left behind whatever feminine traits or qualities they 1.00

01:22:07.400 had.

01:22:07.620 It was like, the minute you, you don't hide that, you're not going to go anywhere.

01:22:12.320 And then Jenny came along and she wanted to be a combat engineer or a flamenco dancer.

01:22:19.540 About it.

01:22:19.800 That was her two things.

01:22:20.800 Right.

01:22:21.020 And so she, even as for, even when she was a full colonel.

01:22:23.840 She's done both.

01:22:24.600 Yes.

01:22:25.000 So even as a full colonel on, you know, we had the American Idol or CMR Idol that take

01:22:29.900 off for the kids and mess.

01:22:31.240 And she did her dancing.

01:22:32.100 She's a mother of four, you know, and she doesn't, you know, she doesn't want to look 0.95

01:22:37.820 like, yeah, she doesn't hide her femininity. 1.00

01:22:39.120 So I like that about her.

01:22:40.160 She's the full package.

01:22:40.900 There's no question.

01:22:41.420 So she is.

01:22:42.320 So how do you account for the fact that she got tangled up in this DEI?

01:22:45.720 This, you know.

01:22:46.620 Was that, was that like inevitable?

01:22:48.320 Yeah.

01:22:48.440 They created a command.

01:22:50.140 So they decided the government forced this.

01:22:52.440 And I will, I will say that it was forced upon us and that, you know, oh, there's, it's

01:22:57.260 horrible, the military, there's, it's misogynistic, it's just warrior, patriarch, blah, blah, blah.

01:23:02.760 So we have to change this.

01:23:04.120 So they created a command.

01:23:05.360 And I think, wasn't the budget $500 million over five, like, you know, we could have done

01:23:09.620 with that money.

01:23:10.860 And so she was the chief of that, of that command.

01:23:15.480 And they had to, so I, so I look at what, what happened.

01:23:18.140 Okay.

01:23:18.280 So they, we tried DEI.

01:23:19.540 How's that working out for us?

01:23:21.700 Not great.

01:23:22.220 We're way down.

01:23:23.320 We're still way down 16,000 in personnel.

01:23:26.240 16,000 out of how many?

01:23:28.040 We're short.

01:23:29.140 So we should have.

01:23:30.020 Probably about a hundred thousand if you take the regular.

01:23:32.140 And the reserves together.

01:23:33.420 So you're 15% below where you should be.

01:23:35.460 And 15%, by the way, in, in wartime, 15%, your unit is no longer combat capable, have to

01:23:41.380 be pulled back from the thing.

01:23:42.400 So you could actually say that the armed forces are non-combat capable.

01:23:46.040 Because of the math.

01:23:46.680 Because of it, yes.

01:23:47.580 But of course.

01:23:48.340 And there's a lot of math behind that as well, because that's on paper.

01:23:52.760 And then you add on the layer on top of this.

01:23:55.560 And a lot of organizations have similar issues with respect to, even though you might be at

01:23:59.040 85% of that remaining 85%, a bunch of them are unavailable for a variety of reasons

01:24:04.460 from medical to administrative.

01:24:06.300 How many?

01:24:07.240 Well, you're probably looking at a number of several thousand.

01:24:10.220 And I've seen numbers as high as 8,000.

01:24:12.620 Not only that.

01:24:13.720 Out of the remaining.

01:24:15.020 So another 10% of what's left.

01:24:18.080 So it's 20.

01:24:18.920 I see.

01:24:19.480 I see.

01:24:19.580 Yeah.

01:24:19.840 And unfortunately.

01:24:20.240 You're looking at a 20% shortfall at the moment.

01:24:22.100 Not just that, but the people who are missing are the center core.

01:24:27.120 So you've got your warrant, your sergeant, your lieutenant, your captain.

01:24:30.860 Well, captain.

01:24:31.640 So that, yeah.

01:24:32.740 Who took 20 years to get there.

01:24:34.140 So even if you recruit 16,000 people tomorrow, they're not going to, it's going to take them

01:24:39.240 time to get there for, you know, so, and, you know, technicians, fighter pilots, fighter

01:24:44.320 pilots have been down for, for years and years.

01:24:46.380 We're missing.

01:24:46.840 Well, we can't, we can't even train them in Canada anymore.

01:24:49.380 So we don't have the, yeah, we don't have the training.

01:24:52.040 But so, so like going back to the culture change.

01:24:54.200 So it was the culture change.

01:24:55.120 It's strange that you can't find enough fighter pilots.

01:24:57.280 I mean, God, you think that.

01:24:58.500 Unbelievable.

01:24:58.780 Well, because, but I'm going to say to you that that is a, that's a function of the,

01:25:03.160 of DEI.

01:25:04.120 So, I mean, you, so the culture change, get rid of the, the, the way we think, the way

01:25:08.000 we behave, that whole warrior mentality.

01:25:10.200 So that's where the attrition went, I think.

01:25:12.180 Yeah, well, that's going to get 20 years.

01:25:13.620 She says, I'm done.

01:25:14.780 I'm not doing this.

01:25:15.600 She says she's out.

01:25:16.680 So now we're implementing the DEI.

01:25:18.180 So we're targeting this 2.3, whatever quota, the, whatever you, non-binary, whatever you

01:25:27.320 want to fill in indigenous, female, whatever it is. 0.89

01:25:31.300 So we're targeting this person.

01:25:32.680 So there's my four fighter pilots who are lined up that want to join and they don't even get

01:25:37.380 a medical appointment because I got quotas to fill.

01:25:40.480 You know, the fundamental problem with that, especially as you stop, start stacking up the

01:25:45.180 intersectional requirements is that you actually end up with no candidate pool, right?

01:25:49.160 Because first of all, your candidate pool for fighter pilots is going to be very restricted

01:25:52.700 to begin with, right?

01:25:54.160 So then the next question would be, well, are there any of those DEI candidates even hypothetically

01:25:59.540 available?

01:26:00.200 And the answer to that is likely no.

01:26:01.940 And even if there were, the probability that they'll be qualified or interested is vanishingly

01:26:06.900 small, you know?

01:26:08.420 So, I mean, even in the academic realm, when we were, as long as I was an academic, as long

01:26:15.580 as I'd been an academic, if you were a minority, you had more than a fighting chance with the

01:26:20.920 hiring committee, like seriously more of a fighting chance.

01:26:23.800 It was pretty much your position to lose.

01:26:26.660 But all that meant still was that there was no way we could come to the kind of parity

01:26:31.240 that was required by the people who think that, you know, every category has to be filled.

01:26:35.680 There just wasn't the, the people just weren't there.

01:26:38.120 They just didn't exist.

01:26:39.140 And you couldn't make them out of whole cloth.

01:26:41.140 Exactly.

01:26:41.560 And so, a 20% decrement.

01:26:43.940 Okay, so we started this out, and we have to draw this to a close fairly soon.

01:26:48.120 We started this out with something we didn't probably emphasize enough, which was the nature

01:26:54.100 of the crisis.

01:26:54.820 Now, you know, we alluded to the fact that Canada, let's say, is woefully unprepared now

01:27:00.240 on the classic military front, also with regard to all the new forms of warfare that are multiplying

01:27:07.580 faster than people can even imagine, that we have a widespread problem of demoralization

01:27:12.880 and that recruitment is not working.

01:27:15.460 Okay, so, but I didn't get the sense that we did a sufficiently good job of telling Canadians

01:27:22.060 that, you know, there's smoke and fire.

01:27:24.320 It's like that this is a real problem.

01:27:25.860 And so, like, what do you feel are the consequences, even the short-term consequences, let's say,

01:27:32.880 of Canada continuing to be unprepared in this manner?

01:27:37.160 So, this goes to Mike's intervention early in the conversation about this notion of a perfect storm.

01:27:42.780 So, at the very moment in time, this period in time, when we have the dimensions of the crisis

01:27:51.700 that you've just summarized, we are incapable, therefore, of participating, contributing,

01:27:59.440 and doing our fair share, for lack of a better characterization, in a global system that needs us.

01:28:08.360 Right.

01:28:08.860 So, we look incompetent, just at minimum.

01:28:11.100 So, at a minimum, we look incompetent or disinterested.

01:28:14.800 Yeah.

01:28:15.120 Pick one.

01:28:15.900 Yeah, yeah.

01:28:16.280 Neither of them is a particularly good look for a G7 country.

01:28:20.140 Yeah, right.

01:28:20.580 Then we have the actual practical challenges around the security issues.

01:28:28.300 We look at our ability to contribute or not to the alliance.

01:28:32.420 Are we doing enough?

01:28:33.620 We never are doing enough.

01:28:35.280 We're doing what we can, but that is insufficient.

01:28:38.300 And so, the implication from a Canadian perspective is that Canada, that depends as much, if not more,

01:28:49.460 than many other countries in the world on these global systems for our way of life,

01:28:53.920 is unable to make any meaningful contribution to the preservation, reinforcement,

01:29:00.400 and ultimately protection of all of these systems.

01:29:03.820 Right, right, right.

01:29:04.600 And so, but that's a hard sell.

01:29:07.400 And I get why it's a hard sell, which is why, and this is a very personal plea,

01:29:13.500 I do not believe, notwithstanding the need for Canadians to understand this, that this should

01:29:21.400 be an interest of, or this should be an issue of public interest or public opinion.

01:29:25.480 And I have told political leaders who will listen to me that if you are following public opinion

01:29:31.960 on these issues, you are not leading.

01:29:34.760 And this is an issue of leadership.

01:29:36.300 Well, my suspicion, too, is that if the public was informed, as we're attempting to do now,

01:29:42.140 that the discovery would be that far more Canadians, especially of the conservative and

01:29:47.260 classic liberal bent, would be behind intelligent policy related to the military. 0.98

01:29:54.760 I can only, you know, 100% support what Mark's saying.

01:29:59.200 If a government wants to govern for Canada, for all Canadians, and this is the right thing to do,

01:30:06.860 to have armed forces that can protect Canadians, but also intervene internationally wherever we want.

01:30:13.840 But you need to be able to spend the money.

01:30:16.880 Some social programs are going to have to be lessened, you know, in terms of how much we spend on them.

01:30:21.620 But it's always, you know, guns, butter.

01:30:23.240 You can have both.

01:30:24.720 And right now, we don't have enough guns, frankly.

01:30:26.800 That's where we are today.

01:30:28.240 Or people holding guns.

01:30:29.300 Or people holding guns.

01:30:30.300 Or butter.

01:30:30.700 Or butter.

01:30:31.180 Or butter, yeah.

01:30:31.980 But the point is, and I agree with you 100% as well, that if a government decided that,

01:30:37.100 then it's a matter of going out and telling Canadians.

01:30:39.900 It has to start at the top, though.

01:30:41.340 Again, I say, the prime minister of our country, doesn't matter what persuasion he is,

01:30:47.360 you know, doesn't even talk about it.

01:30:48.760 When he talks about the defense policy update, it's going to be good.

01:30:51.600 He's going to get closer to 2%.

01:30:53.240 No one cares about that.

01:30:54.900 For the moment, we need somebody who cares about service to our country,

01:30:58.480 who's going to make service an honorable thing for people to do,

01:31:01.720 who's going to fund the military, who's going to improve morale, and so on.

01:31:05.060 And I think if you explain it to Canadians, they will understand.

01:31:08.180 And we need the leaders themselves.

01:31:10.740 The ones in uniform are going to have to buck up a little bit.

01:31:15.520 Can I say that?

01:31:16.020 I was going to say something else, but I'll say, grow up there, but I'm not going to say that.

01:31:20.180 Fair enough.

01:31:21.140 Okay, so why is, all right?

01:31:24.180 Yes.

01:31:24.520 Now, we talked at the beginning a little bit about the fact that,

01:31:27.760 look, I know that the military personnel, the leadership in particular,

01:31:32.280 are fundamentally supposed to shut the hell up about political matters.

01:31:36.840 And they are in a very strict chain of command.

01:31:40.420 And by and large, they should stay there.

01:31:42.660 But you three, who should know, have indicated that we have something on our hands

01:31:48.320 in the order of a crisis.

01:31:50.700 And I don't imagine you're like chicken little sky is falling sort of people.

01:31:54.440 And so, at some point, it becomes incumbent on people who are attempting to serve the country

01:32:00.760 to bring such things to the attention of Canadians.

01:32:04.100 And so, why is that not happening as much as it might in Europe?

01:32:09.440 Well, I think that, again, I, you know, not political, but I think that our military,

01:32:14.560 I watch on television in the last few years where there's an announcement about the military

01:32:19.800 and Wayne Eyre's not even there.

01:32:21.360 Our chief of defense staff is, it's Anita Nan that's making the announcement.

01:32:25.140 The minister's making the announcement, beside the prime minister.

01:32:27.680 What the hell?

01:32:28.480 Like, you know, you look at the Americans and there's the joint chiefs, 0.82

01:32:31.660 the chairman of the joint chiefs, he's there beside them.

01:32:34.020 So what do you think that indicates?

01:32:35.320 So I think that, I think that, I don't know, maybe the generals are going to need to say,

01:32:40.940 okay, like, you know, no, this is still my ship, my armed forces,

01:32:45.760 and I need to have more of a say.

01:32:47.040 And I don't know, I think the next government, that's going to be more likely,

01:32:51.620 because this government just seemed to find the idea of a uniform somehow unsavory and hid it away.

01:32:57.540 I mean, when was the last time that we had-

01:32:59.020 Depends on the uniform, I might say.

01:33:00.760 But when was the last time you saw a Rick Hillier, for example, up there, 0.95

01:33:04.040 calling them scumbags and whatever else, and him saying, yeah, well, you know, 0.85

01:33:07.260 you can talk to the, and people listening, Canadians were enamored of that. 0.97

01:33:12.120 And you need a hero, everybody loves a hero, and we're not producing enough.

01:33:16.560 We're not showing, we have heroes, but we're not showing them enough.

01:33:19.120 Well, then on that front, too, like, you talked about three gentlemen whose careers were demolished,

01:33:25.260 the three senior officers.

01:33:26.800 Are McDonald, Danny Fortin, and Steve Whelan.

01:33:29.200 Right, and the name of culture change.

01:33:30.960 And so my suspicions are that that sort of action is also quite likely to dissuade people

01:33:35.960 from having something to say.

01:33:37.960 It probably, well-

01:33:39.460 I'm not sure about that.

01:33:40.900 I mean, we have an example, and I'll talk about, you know,

01:33:44.540 the Vice Admiral Octorlone and Vice Admiral Topshy, two senior, you know, three-star admirals.

01:33:52.400 Topshy commands the Navy currently, and he made a video about, I want to say about a year ago,

01:33:56.820 maybe nine months ago, where he talked about the challenges of the Navy.

01:34:00.100 Now, as a leader, that's what you want to do.

01:34:02.220 You want to inform your troops, you want to make sure you communicate with them that,

01:34:05.280 okay, things are tough, boys and girls, but, you know, there's stuff coming down the pipe,

01:34:09.740 and, you know, he did what a good leader would do.

01:34:12.080 I'm sure the government was very unhappy with him releasing that video.

01:34:16.060 If you haven't seen it, you need to see it.

01:34:17.840 The other guy is Octorlone.

01:34:20.300 What's the video?

01:34:21.460 The video is, the Royal Canadian Navy commander makes a video about the state of the Navy today.

01:34:26.980 How long is that video?

01:34:27.900 Oh, I think, you know?

01:34:28.640 Six minutes, maybe.

01:34:29.780 Six minutes.

01:34:30.240 But it's excellent.

01:34:31.580 Okay, will you send me the link to that?

01:34:33.580 Maybe we'll put it on this show.

01:34:35.440 Sure, I can.

01:34:36.180 If that would be useful.

01:34:37.120 Sure, I can do it.

01:34:38.120 Okay, okay.

01:34:38.920 The other guy is Bob Octorlone.

01:34:40.720 So he commands, he commands the Canadian Joint Operations Command.

01:34:44.660 He commands all the military operations outside and inside the country.

01:34:48.460 He's kind of the Mr. Operator.

01:34:50.420 He does that on behalf of the Chief of Defense Staff.

01:34:52.980 So he was in an interview, I don't know with whom, but he talked about, you know, the world today.

01:34:59.820 And he talked about, because he's the guy that gets all the intelligence, and he talked about the dangers, the threats to our country, and so on and so forth.

01:35:07.760 And he was very open, and he said, you know, Canadians don't realize how dangerous the world is today. 0.76

01:35:13.660 And that was another video?

01:35:15.160 That is a video.

01:35:15.980 It's an interview.

01:35:16.940 That was a mainstream media interview in one of the papers, I believe.

01:35:20.920 Okay.

01:35:21.100 But the notion being that there are little pockets of people who are speaking out.

01:35:26.980 And I was always told, I don't know if you, same with you, but when you, when the media would come around and they would say, can we talk to your soldiers?

01:35:33.540 The soldiers knew they could talk about what they were doing, exactly what they, you couldn't talk about, oh, I hate the policy of the government.

01:35:39.060 Yeah, yeah.

01:35:40.160 And frankly, when I look at what Topshi did, and I look at what Octorlone did, they talked about their job.

01:35:46.060 They talked, you know, my job is the operator, and my job is to know what's going on in the world.

01:35:50.000 And I don't think people understand that this is going on.

01:35:52.920 The other guy, Topshi, he said, well, what's going on in my command?

01:35:55.940 Oh, I'm telling you, troops.

01:35:57.220 And I'm sure he did it for his sailors.

01:35:58.700 He did.

01:35:59.120 It was internally.

01:35:59.840 And it was a really good...

01:36:00.760 So your point is, is that there is a way for military leaders to speak out.

01:36:05.580 There is.

01:36:06.020 To inform the population and their own men and women about what's going on without becoming, without stepping outside of the chain of command.

01:36:14.620 Without becoming politically disloyal.

01:36:16.460 They can be, exactly, loyalty is the key.

01:36:18.640 Right.

01:36:18.980 However, the government sometimes says, no, you're not allowed.

01:36:21.840 Well, the government can also be pushed back when they're out of their bailiwick.

01:36:25.620 So, but your sense is that there is a place there where public pronouncements are appropriate and possible, and that you've seen some of them.

01:36:34.160 Yeah, I have.

01:36:34.620 Yeah, yeah.

01:36:35.200 Okay.

01:36:35.680 Well, so let's close with this.

01:36:37.060 I'll just give each of you a chance for a closing statement to speak directly to the Canadian public and also the international community, because there'll be lots of people who aren't Canadian watching this as well.

01:36:47.300 So, just anything at all.

01:36:49.780 What would you like to emphasize, let's say?

01:36:51.520 Barbara, maybe you could start.

01:36:52.680 What would you like to emphasize, let's say, to young women, possibly, considering a career?

01:36:57.400 So, young women today, they're a lot stronger, I think, from the interactions I've had with our young officer cadets.

01:37:02.920 And I would say, ladies, you know, there's nothing to be afraid of.

01:37:06.140 You've got this.

01:37:07.520 Join the military.

01:37:08.540 You are going to have, you know, the experience of a lifetime.

01:37:11.380 You can learn to be and do whatever you want to do.

01:37:14.480 And don't listen to too many negative comments, because you can handle this.

01:37:20.100 We handled it back then.

01:37:21.140 You can handle it today.

01:37:22.120 That would be my comment to that.

01:37:23.720 Okay.

01:37:24.760 Well, I would say, for me, I think service to your country and service in the military is a fantastic career.

01:37:32.720 And I think any young man or woman who doesn't actually consider it, at least consider it, not necessarily do it, but consider it.

01:37:40.940 Have a look at what's available out there and look at it compared to civilian employment.

01:37:45.200 I think you're missing out.

01:37:47.020 Okay.

01:37:47.380 So, let me zero in on that a little bit.

01:37:49.220 So, let's take a kid who's just about to graduate from high school.

01:37:54.020 Right.

01:37:54.140 So, starting to figure out, maybe from a small town or a city for that matter.

01:37:57.540 Trying to figure out what to do next.

01:37:59.400 Okay.

01:37:59.640 So, why exactly do you think the military might be on his or her list of consideration?

01:38:05.780 And who?

01:38:06.680 What kind of student should be thinking about this?

01:38:08.980 Well, first of all, if you've got good marks and you're in fairly decent physical shape, then being an officer, and if you're in high school, you're going to look at going to university.

01:38:19.040 If you're going to go to university, let's say, and if you don't want to go to university, first of all, you could join as a soldier, sailor, aviator, or whatever.

01:38:26.660 Great career.

01:38:27.360 You can have great.

01:38:28.000 My son is in the Navy.

01:38:29.700 My daughter is in the Army, in the Reserves.

01:38:33.020 They've had great careers.

01:38:34.120 They love it.

01:38:35.320 However, if you're looking at going to university, have a look at what the military college provides you.

01:38:39.360 Yeah, right.

01:38:39.860 Okay.

01:38:40.100 It's a four-pillar program.

01:38:41.760 You'll get a degree.

01:38:43.380 You're going to get military leadership experience because they're going to teach you and so on.

01:38:50.000 You're going to be bilingual.

01:38:51.260 They're going to teach you how to speak your other language.

01:38:54.200 Right, right.

01:38:54.660 And you're also going to be in great shape because it's a four-pillar program physically.

01:38:58.960 And you'll get paid for doing it.

01:39:00.040 Right, right.

01:39:00.680 Which is a thing for kids.

01:39:02.080 Right, so you're paid for doing it.

01:39:03.160 And then what you have to do is serve the number of years that you go to military college.

01:39:06.440 After that, you can get out and do whatever you'd like.

01:39:09.080 However, if you decide to get out, let's say, what a great CV you have.

01:39:13.780 What a great curriculum vitae.

01:39:15.540 You've got experience.

01:39:17.200 You've got a degree.

01:39:18.300 You've got some leadership.

01:39:19.480 You're in great shape, et cetera, et cetera.

01:39:21.420 Right, so that's just available for people if they want anyone.

01:39:24.220 Or if that's not your path, then join and get a trade.

01:39:29.860 Right, that's it.

01:39:30.500 There's literally over 100 different occupations available in the military.

01:39:35.400 How would people go about finding this out?

01:39:37.900 And so it's going to be online.

01:39:40.420 It's all online now.

01:39:41.960 And every one of those occupations, they have a little video, a three-minute video.

01:39:47.340 You see, what would you be doing if you were this?

01:39:49.400 Right, and some of them have, literally, some of them have three or four years of intensive academic qualifications, technical skills.

01:39:58.720 And then you combine it with work.

01:40:00.940 And if you're not interested in that, then there's lots of opportunity for what I would characterize as simple adventure, an opportunity to just do really fun and cool things, potentially on the other side of the world.

01:40:15.340 And get some good experience and build some great relationships that will last you for the rest of your life.

01:40:22.000 Absolutely, yeah.

01:40:23.720 So was that the end of your…

01:40:25.500 That's it, my friend.

01:40:26.020 That was your…

01:40:26.800 Well, that was good.

01:40:28.340 That was a good…

01:40:29.000 Well, that's a good positive…

01:40:31.180 So my message would be, what I was trying to say earlier, Canadians need to understand that notwithstanding all of the real challenges that they're faced with on a day-to-day basis in this country, we still enjoy an incredible level of privilege and wealth.

01:40:52.040 And that is fragile.

01:40:55.120 We can never take that for granted.

01:40:57.140 And part of not taking that for granted is that we are part of a very complicated global system that depends on a whole bunch of things that depend on security as the foundational element of economics, of social fairness and equality, the rule of law.

01:41:21.520 All these things that are important to us as Canadians, both domestically or internationally, are premised on a secure global system.

01:41:31.880 That system is under threat.

01:41:35.100 It is real.

01:41:37.300 And that is where the vulnerability and threat is to Canada.

01:41:42.400 It's not a physical threat in the form of an invasion, which many new Canadians may have lived in their own experience.

01:41:51.200 It's not that.

01:41:52.460 It's deeper.

01:41:53.320 It's broader.

01:41:54.380 It's a little more esoteric.

01:41:56.140 It's another kind of invasion.

01:41:57.160 But it is real and it is coming.

01:41:59.880 And we either want to be part of the answer with respect to how we protect it, or we're going to wake up one morning and wonder where what we thought Canada was all about went.

01:42:13.280 Went.

01:42:13.880 Yeah.

01:42:14.380 Okay.

01:42:14.820 Okay.

01:42:15.260 Well, so I think what we'll do on the Daily Wire side, for everybody watching and listening, I think we'll delve a little bit more deeply into the ideology and the DEI mess.

01:42:26.180 And how that came about and what might be done about it.

01:42:29.700 And maybe also talk a little bit more about the problems of security in the digital world.

01:42:37.580 And so if you want to join us on the Daily Wire side, please feel free to do that.

01:42:42.140 And thank you very much for your time and attention.

01:42:43.980 Thank you very much for coming in today.

01:42:45.580 Our pleasure.

01:42:45.880 Yeah.

01:42:46.460 Well, one of many conversations, I hope.

01:42:49.000 And to everybody watching and listening, thank you very much for your time and attention as well.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - August 01, 2024

468. Canada Can’t Defend Itself ｜ J.O. Michel Maisonneuve, Barbara Maisonneuve, and Mark Norman

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