Selina Cesar Chavan was a Liberal MP for the riding of Whitby, a woman who served as a cabinet minister under Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. She talks about her time in the Trudeau cabinet, why she left her own business, and why she decided to run for office in 2015, and what it was like to work with the Prime Minister. She also talks about the challenges of being a woman in a male-dominated cabinet, and how she dealt with the fallout from some of the scandals that have plagued the Trudeau administration. And she explains why she chose to leave the party and run for re-election in the 2015 general election, despite having served as the MP for a seat in the House of Commons for the previous party, the Liberal Party of Justin Trudeau's Liberals. The story is much more complicated than you might expect from someone who spent four years in Trudeau's cabinet. Join us as we hear her story, and find out how she ended up running for office and what she did to get there. Episode Highlights: 1. What was it like working for the Trudeau Liberals 2. Why she left the party 3. What it was really like being a minister under Justin Trudeau 4. How she got to where she is now 5. What she s doing now 6. What s going on with her new job 7. Who s running against the Trudeau government 8. What's next for her 9. Who she s going to do next? 10. Why did she s running for the next election? 11. How much money does she would like to make? 12. What does she have 13. What would she would she like to see 14. How would she get 15? 15. 16. Why does she vote for next election 17. How does she want to vote 18. What do you want to be in 2020? 19. What are you think of Canada s future in Canada? 16 What s she s looking for 15 How would you vote for Canada s next election in 2020 16? 17 And so on and so much more? And do you have a dollar sign Listen to find out what she s got in her future in 2020 and what s in store for her next election ? Thank you for listening to this episode of Perspectives? Subscribe to the podcast?
00:11:48.380It was a private company that was running it.
00:11:50.600And so I'd get contracts with pharmaceutical companies or with nonprofits, you know,
00:11:57.280like working with Parkinson's Society Canada or Alzheimer's Society, helping them run their adjudication processes or partnering with the government of Canada.
00:12:06.040And that last large study that I did running their national epidemiology study.
00:12:11.240So it was a private firm that I ran for over 10 years, award-winning firm, and did that quite successfully for the time.
00:12:20.460But it was really focused on the first love of my life, which was the brain.
00:12:26.620And how did you go about, okay, well, that's a, that's a difficult thing to manage, to, to found and run a private company that's research focused.
00:12:35.560So tell me a little bit more about that.
00:12:37.480How did you, how did you have the idea?
00:12:39.680And actually, how did you manage that on the business side?
00:12:42.160Because that's, that, it seems to me that that's a rare thing to do.
00:14:26.940We were living in this run-down basement apartment, basically dumpster diving for our furniture.
00:14:33.780And I realized that life wasn't going to keep me down that way.
00:14:38.700So I started a company because I knew, working in research, that the most valuable asset to any of the principal investigators I was working with was a good, solid research coordinator.
00:14:50.700So I decided that maybe I could use that as a launch pad, as a freelance research coordinator.
00:14:57.520And I started that for a little while until the first pharmaceutical company called me and said, we have a clinical trial for a pediatric epilepsy clinical trial.
00:15:07.420Can you find us some principal investigators?
00:15:10.720And of course, when you're down and out, and you're trying your best to get your family out of a situation, the first thing that I said was, absolutely.
00:15:21.680But finding a pediatric neuropsychologist to run a clinical trial in Toronto was like trying to find a needle in a haystack.
00:15:30.360But with grit and determination, I found three of them for that company.
00:15:35.160And the first paycheck I got with that, with Resolve Research Solutions, which was the name of my company, was a down payment to my first home.
00:15:48.540I really studied with that MBA, used that MBA to create the blueprint for a company that ended up being very successful.
00:15:56.720And I think finding a niche market of being able to be a site management organization for pharmaceutical companies, probably one of the first in Canada, was something that was unheard of.
00:16:09.540And it happened to be something that I knew how to do very well, because I knew, while I didn't know everything about the brain at the time, I knew how to run a successful business.
00:16:19.660And that's something that my principal investigators didn't know how to do.
00:17:59.700Not to boast, but I won the Black Business and Professional Association Harry Jomar Award for Young Entrepreneur.
00:18:07.320And in 2012, won the Toronto Board of Trade Entrepreneur of the Year Award with the company.
00:18:14.600It grew quite successfully to the point where I was running or co-chairing with the Public Health Agency of Canada National Epidemiology Studies.
00:18:24.060So, I think the success may have been measured in sort of dollars and cents, but I think the impact that I had within the industry,
00:18:32.860focusing on research, focusing on a market where oftentimes you don't see people like me running.
00:18:39.140You don't see, you know, women in that particular field.
00:18:42.840I was doing it and doing it successfully and having impact, not just for the physicians that I work with,
00:18:48.180but for the patients that we serve that were walking through the door.
00:18:52.280So, what did you do with your business once you ran for office?
00:26:35.000Because the only thing that Justin had going for him, apart from his attractiveness and his charm,
00:26:40.560which are both obvious, I would say, he had an extremely famous name.
00:26:45.620And, but I didn't think that he had the experience or the education to dare to take on a role like that.
00:26:55.000And then I, you know, I was thinking, well, that's a bit harsh because the Liberals did want someone who had name brand recognition and fair enough.
00:27:02.440And he could have come to office and surrounded himself with real experts and learned like mad carefully.
00:27:09.980And perhaps had he had the ability, became a stellar leader over some period of time.
00:27:14.600Although I didn't see much evidence of that either.
00:27:17.080So, and then he came out with this Sunnyways campaign.
00:27:19.660And I think that really did capitalize on his charm and very effectively.
00:27:24.480And there was an optimistic mood in Canada at that point with regard to the possibilities, the new leadership.
00:28:22.340And as far as you could tell, that was rejected out of hand.
00:28:26.160And you don't believe, perhaps, that it even got to Trudeau's desk.
00:28:31.020And although you were parliamentary secretary, you didn't have a close relationship with him.
00:28:35.660And so, apparently, you weren't even in a position to ask him whether or not he had seen this plan that you had spent some time detailing.
00:28:43.180Now, I think it would be useful to outline for us what the role of a parliamentary secretary is and what it was that you expected that didn't happen and whether or not your expectations were actually realistic.
00:28:57.140And you said, you know, you were disinclined to complain and you laid out the reasons for that.
00:29:01.660So, what's the typical, as far as you understand, how are the relations between a prime minister and his parliamentary secretary generally managed?
00:29:13.020So, typically, what happens, and you could check the record because I tend not to say things that are not, that don't have receipts, is that a parliamentary secretary, especially to the prime minister, is sworn into Privy Council.
00:29:25.840And has access to, you know, a breadth and depth of information that allows them to carry out their duties in a way that is fundamental to being able to have these meetings with individuals that are on high level or high level securities.
00:29:44.000Although I had the security screenings from CRA, RCMP, CSIS, that was all done, but wasn't able to have those meetings.
00:29:53.660Now, when I looked at other relationships with the finance minister, Bill Morneau and Francois-Philippe Champagne, who was his parliamentary secretary, very close, very much constantly having conversations, constantly involved in the policy development, constantly involved in stakeholder engagement and relationships.
00:30:13.720So, there is a, there is a, there's no gaps between what that minister is doing and what that parliamentary secretary is doing.
00:30:21.640There has to be a, there has to be a tight relationship.
00:30:24.040And as a first minister, as prime minister with the parliamentary secretary, there has to be an even tighter gap.
00:30:31.220Because if there's any kind of ripples or spaces in between the other ministries, we need to be aware of that.
00:30:42.000So, making sure that you have someone that's not only competent, but has their ears to the ground, they know what is happening, is what I thought would be the relationship that I had.
00:30:53.560And I would say that maybe, I don't want to mislead anyone, maybe it was my fault that that relationship didn't go as well.
00:31:02.400Well, the first meeting that I had with the prime minister was in December of 2015.
00:31:08.040And of course, everybody remembers that during that first administration, he had a 50-50 cabinet.
00:31:14.980And he came out and said, you know, that this is the cabinet because it's 2015.
00:31:20.540Not because the people had merit, not because, you know, I have an excellent lineup.
00:31:27.460It was very disenfranchising, and I think it was very much flippant for someone who was a leader of a G7 country to just say, because it's 2015.
00:31:38.780Let me dive into that just for a sec, if you don't mind.
00:31:41.380Well, because that also struck me really hard.
00:31:45.780You know, I spent a lot of time assessing the research literature on hiring and determining how you do that if you hire purely on merit, let's say.
00:31:55.860And merit is defined in relationship to the evidence you have that the people you're attempting to hire actually have the ability to do what that specific job requires.
00:32:05.100And there are various ways of determining that merit.
00:32:08.160You do a job analysis to find out what the job actually entails, and then you go through the person's history and you see if they have the experience and the raw ability.
00:32:17.080Okay, so now when Trudeau announced that 50-50 cabinet.
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00:33:14.880Because it was 2015, I thought something quite similar to what you thought.
00:33:19.200I thought first, hey, that's pretty damn flippant.
00:33:21.980And I thought second, you've done something there that's really not good because only 25% of the members of the House of Commons were female.
00:33:30.640And that means you've reduced your applicant pool a priori by half.
00:33:35.420And so there's no way that you pulled the most—statistically speaking, purely, there's no possible way that you screened and pulled in the most qualified people into your cabinet.
00:34:06.900And I won't speak to sort of the skills of the individuals.
00:34:10.700I think he had a very competent cabinet around him.
00:34:14.600The thing that really struck me with the—because it's 2015 is because it was so flippant, because it was so—it made it seem like it was arbitrary, and it made it seem, as you said, for show.
00:34:30.220And so I went into that meeting saying to him that, look, I understand my role here.
00:34:38.540I understand I'm the only one that looks like me.
00:34:41.560But what I said, and I quote, is, if I'm here to fill any gender or racial gap within your cabinet, I don't want this role.
00:34:49.940Yeah, well, that's one of the dangers.
00:34:51.860That is absolutely one of the dangers of gender and ethnicity selection, let's say, is that you—like, I saw this at the universities all the time.
00:35:01.980I think it's a terrible—it's a terrible thing to have happen around people who are from a minority background who are truly qualified, because it's hard on them, because they don't know why they're selected, and it's hard on everybody else, because they don't know why they're selected.
00:35:19.760And putting that forward right at the beginning, I wanted to put him on notice that I am smart, I'm more than capable, so use me for a particular role that you might have within this position as parliamentary secretary, but don't for a second think that I would be a token throughout your entire administration.
00:35:42.500That was the notice that I was putting him under with saying those words.
00:35:46.300And so after I said that, he said, you know what, Selena, do you trust my judgment?
00:35:54.700Dude, I met you like five minutes ago.
00:35:57.220So I said, no, I don't trust your judgment.
00:36:39.040One is because of the statements that Trudeau made about the composition of his cabinet and how he made that.
00:36:44.580And then second, because you were the only black woman in the entire House of Commons.
00:36:49.260And so the combination of those two things made it reasonable for you to wonder just what was going on and to make a statement.
00:36:56.440Now, if I was going to play the devil's advocate, I'd say, you know, maybe—
00:37:01.900And I'm not saying that this is right because I really do want to go into this.
00:37:05.880So I want to do it in the most—in the harshest way possible so we get it straight.
00:37:11.300You know, you might say—and I think you kind of alluded to this given that you said that perhaps you put your foot forward wrong the first meeting.
00:37:19.400You know, you might say if you were thinking about it strategically, you would have had a calm and somewhat contentless first meeting and just got to know each other a little bit before you put your foot down, so to speak, about the role you were going to play.
00:38:51.940And it really speaks to a particular sense of awareness or lack thereof that was pretty evident right from the beginning.
00:39:00.720And if we think about this, this whole episode, me being in politics, has driven me into the PhD work that I'm doing right now on motivated cognition and understanding what motivates people.
00:39:15.060You know, their self-appraisal, their self-enhancement, their self-verification.
00:39:18.400It was really in that moment seeing that everything that needed to align for Justin Trudeau at that moment needed to feed into his feelings or his motivation on self, what he felt about himself.
00:39:33.720And I came in and within that first 15 minutes of a meeting said, no, I'm not just going to arbitrarily fall into what you deem to be your methodology around your self-enhancement.
00:40:03.560I didn't know at the time that probably that that wasn't the best move to make because I assumed that as his parliamentary secretary, as his right-hand person, that he would have wanted someone who was going to be honest.
00:40:19.200And I don't think that's what he wanted.
00:40:20.760He wanted someone to confirm a bias that he felt about himself or a lack of self-esteem that he felt about himself by saying, yes, I trust your judgment, Justin.
00:40:30.860I don't know you, but I'm going to say yes, I trust you.
00:40:37.920So that's what, that's what alerted you, let's say, is that you, if I got, tell me if I've got this right, you felt that his query about whether or not you trusted him.
00:40:50.340It was an attempt to insist that you on no evidence, because you didn't know him, make the presumption that he was competent and that he would lead your relationship in the appropriate direction.
00:41:08.960Now, you laid out a bunch of other questions that he could have asked you, which were more other focused, right?
00:41:13.840They were more focused on service to Canadians.
00:41:19.920You, it sounds to me like you were surprised, let's say, that the conversation became about him.
00:41:27.380And it, it sounds to me that you weren't disabused of that suspicion as things progressed.
00:41:33.560Now, you've also laid out for us already the fact that you were trotted out, so to speak, at three international events.
00:41:43.780And they were all international events that you associated with you being put on display as a consequence of your ethnicity and perhaps your gender.
00:41:51.040Is that a reasonable, is that a reasonable representation of what you said?
00:42:03.860And so, what happened to you was that you didn't establish a working relationship on a day-to-day basis with the man you were supposed to be walking arm-in-arm with, let's say.
00:42:15.000And you would have expected, as parliamentary secretary, given that it was a key role, that you'd be in constant communication.
00:42:21.540How often did you, in fact, speak with Prime Minister Trudeau?
00:42:25.820I would say it was a handful of times.
00:42:27.860I haven't, I didn't count it, but it wasn't, and it was a handful of times and of very little substance.
00:42:34.800There wasn't, we didn't have any substantial meetings where we were talking about policy or anything else.
00:42:47.920Not, the first meeting was maybe about half an hour.
00:42:51.960You know what, I should, I stand corrected.
00:42:53.760The other meeting that I had with the Prime Minister was in August of 2016.
00:42:59.340And in August of 2016, I brought to him a couple of things.
00:43:02.660And I remember this because I didn't have another meeting until, I didn't hear anything about it until 2018.
00:43:09.080So, in August of 2016, I came to him and I said, at the time, the United Nations had declared the international decade of people of African descent between 2014 and 2024.
00:43:42.480We should, you know, actually do this properly, understand some of the concerns, understand some of the issues that they're having.
00:43:48.540And then, you know, actually recognize this international decade in a way that makes sense and a way that is actually genuine to our mission and mandate as a government.
00:43:59.940And so, that meeting ended and I didn't hear anything for a year.
00:44:08.580And then, on January 31st of 2018, I was invited to the foyer of the House of Commons and, again, paraded in front.
00:44:19.680Selena, you have to be there on this day.
00:44:22.940And he comes out and I hear that we're announcing the international recognition, Canada's recognition of the International Decade of People of African Descent.
00:44:35.460And my heart breaks because I realize, then I start doing my homework.
00:44:42.400And I realize that over the last year, there have been dozens of meetings about this issue that I have been purposely not invited to.
00:44:56.680And again, and I'm not trying to make an excuse for bad behavior, but I understand the person that I am.
00:45:05.680I'm a person who will fight for and advocate for people that I know don't have the privileges that I have, that don't have the luxuries that I have.
00:45:19.700I understand the power that I have as someone who could be elected or someone who has the ear of the prime minister.
00:45:27.140At the same time, to be so disenfranchised from an individual because I am outspoken, because I advocate, because I put the people that I serve ahead of me,
00:45:43.360because I'm not willing to just take some garbage that you decide to put forward as policy and not interrogate it, that is not my role.
00:45:53.080And from that moment, I knew that within that particular party, within that system, I actually thought that staying in there would have killed me before it actually did anything else.
00:46:07.380It made me really feel like I had to become smaller and smaller, and it wasn't who I was.
00:46:20.100You had had a successful business career.
00:46:23.080And you were in somewhat of a unique position in the House of Commons.
00:46:26.840And so you had every reason to assume that, well, that you had quite a stellar opportunity and a heavy responsibility in front of you.
00:46:35.720And you had a meeting with Prime Minister Trudeau, and it wasn't very long.
00:46:40.740And you said some things about the kind of role that you were hoping you'd play and the fact that you weren't particularly interested in playing a token role, let's say.
00:46:50.800And that didn't go in a stellar manner.
00:46:54.260And he made some reference to his own, what would you say, wishes in that regard.
00:46:59.420And then, as far as I can tell, you were essentially sidelined.
00:47:06.740And then you said that the fact of that sidelining and the fact that it was done in a relatively, what would you say, in a manner that didn't really involve you in the least.
00:47:17.620It was done, what would I say, you're sidelined so effectively that you're not even involved in the fact of your own isolation.
00:47:26.520And so you said that had relatively severe psychological consequences for you.
00:47:31.940You just alluded to that, you know, and that you felt that you were being diminished.
00:47:36.600What, with regards to your, what is it exactly?
00:47:40.440Your confidence in your professional capacity?