The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 497. Alberta vs Ottawa： A New Vision of Health ｜ Minister Dan Williams

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00:00:28.060 to register in Canada.

00:00:30.000 So I had the pleasure today of speaking to Dan Williams, who's the Minister of Mental

00:00:48.940 Health and Addiction in my home province, Alberta.

00:00:52.840 And there was a variety of reasons why I had the conversation, why I wanted to pursue it,

00:00:57.080 some of which I think are relevant to an international audience.

00:01:01.220 The culture war that plagues the West is playing out very intensely in Canada, perhaps more intensely

00:01:08.560 than anywhere else, given that our prime minister is the poster boy for the progressive left.

00:01:14.560 And I mean that in the most literal possible sense.

00:01:16.960 And so the political drama in Canada is emblematic of the political drama that is characterizing

00:01:23.660 the international scene in the developed world.

00:01:26.640 And so it's very much worthwhile paying attention, oddly enough, to the Canadian political scene.

00:01:32.100 And the tension between the progressive left, let's say, the marginalized types who are trying

00:01:38.680 to occupy the center and the center itself is quite well demonstrated in Alberta in consequence

00:01:45.460 of the tension between the federal government run by the Trudeau liberals, insofar as they're

00:01:50.540 running anything, and the Alberta government, which is, what would you say, emblematic of

00:01:56.800 typical, the typical track of Canadian conservatism with a entrepreneurial bent that makes Alberta

00:02:04.580 somewhat more like the United States.

00:02:07.080 And so we talked about that dynamic as well in the Canadian political dynamic.

00:02:11.980 But also, because Alberta has an entrepreneurial flair, there are policy movements in that province

00:02:19.580 that are of, I think, compelling international interest.

00:02:22.560 And one of those is the attempts made by the Alberta government to seriously address the

00:02:28.680 problems of homelessness and addiction.

00:02:30.920 And Dan helped elucidate the Alberta approach to that problem, which is practical, scalable,

00:02:40.460 and by all evidence, preliminary evidence still, because the programs are relatively new, much

00:02:48.960 more effective than the foolish enabling policies of the radical Canadian left.

00:02:55.580 So join us for a walk through the culture war, the way it's played out in Canada as an emblem

00:03:03.400 of that, and a discussion of practical conservative solutions, let's say, to one of the biggest

00:03:11.860 public health crisis that besets North America in particular today.

00:03:15.400 Let's begin with just an overview of the Canadian political structure.

00:03:22.660 We have a lot of international viewers, and Canadians themselves could use a refresher.

00:03:28.580 So maybe start by outlining the provincial, federal government structure, and then talk

00:03:35.780 about your riding, how you're elected there, what it means to be a minister of the crown,

00:03:41.180 and how the premier is, and well, and the prime minister, for that matter, are selected.

00:03:45.740 So just give us a primer with regards to the Canadian political structure.

00:03:49.960 Sure.

00:03:50.380 Thanks, Jordan.

00:03:51.060 The start of the system starts with the British North America Act, which is effectively the

00:03:55.440 basis of our constitution in Canada now.

00:03:58.000 So it was established by an act of the legislature, Parliament in London, England, in 1867.

00:04:04.440 And that sets out the framework that the political structure of Canada hangs on.

00:04:09.580 And so there is a federal government, which meets in Ottawa in Parliament there.

00:04:15.340 It has a House of Commons, House of Lords.

00:04:17.940 The prime minister is the individual that can hold the confidence of the House of Commons.

00:04:22.860 And then every single province, there are 10 of them, get to have their own legislature.

00:04:27.060 And the premier of each of those provinces is the one who holds the confidence of that,

00:04:32.980 meaning has the most votes in the legislature or the House of Commons.

00:04:37.960 The reason that's so important is because in that British North America Act or constitution,

00:04:43.280 it delineates very clearly different areas of jurisdiction.

00:04:46.540 So right from the very authority, the foundational document that sets up Canada,

00:04:50.800 there are some areas of jurisdiction that are exclusively the responsibility of the federal government.

00:04:56.600 There are other areas that are responsibility of each province,

00:05:00.100 like in the United States, like a state would have its own responsibility.

00:05:03.080 So what happens is if you're talking about questions of education or health care or transportation,

00:05:09.940 those are questions that the provinces get to decide themselves.

00:05:14.160 And it's not as though the federal government has given us permission to do that.

00:05:18.640 It's not devolved the way you might see in the UK with, you know, the Welsh Senate or the Scottish Parliament.

00:05:26.020 It's not the same at all.

00:05:27.520 It is, from the very start, different sovereign authorities in those areas, established in our constitution.

00:05:34.900 So that means Alberta, province I'm from, has authority in the constitution to make decisions to do with, say, health care.

00:05:41.260 I'm a minister of health with mental health and addictions.

00:05:44.040 That's my responsibility.

00:05:45.960 And then we can collaborate with other provinces.

00:05:47.660 And sometimes the federal government has funding or initiatives that they might want to do.

00:05:52.340 But it is within the four walls of the province of Alberta, our responsibility to deliver that, to set the policies and to move forward.

00:06:00.640 And so the way that the political structure works is there is this natural division,

00:06:06.520 and sometimes, as a consequence, natural tension between the interests of a federal government in Ottawa and a provincial government in Alberta.

00:06:15.060 And that sets up the framework in which we talk about the political divisions within Canada.

00:06:21.120 Okay, so we'll break that into two streams.

00:06:23.840 So in Canada, people running for political office, either provincially or federally, are allied with a political party.

00:06:32.080 And in Canada, there are basically three main parties.

00:06:36.040 There's the Liberals, who rule federally most of the time.

00:06:39.900 There's the various versions of the Conservatives, who've been around for a long time and are the second most popular party, generally speaking,

00:06:47.700 although more frequently than that on the provincial side.

00:06:50.640 And then there's the NDP, the Socialists.

00:06:53.120 That's right.

00:06:53.580 Right.

00:06:53.820 And that's been the case in Canada really since the early 1960s.

00:06:58.480 And those parties, with some variation, operate at a provincial level and at a federal level.

00:07:05.100 And so if you're running provincially, what would be a typical campaign for you, for example,

00:07:09.800 when you're attempting to gain your seat in the House in Alberta?

00:07:17.160 Right.

00:07:17.480 So before the general election campaign comes, where individuals would run for that seat to be a member of the legislature

00:07:23.320 or perhaps federally member of parliament, there's first often a nomination.

00:07:27.920 That nomination is an election within the political party to decide who's going to be our candidate that we put forward.

00:07:34.540 And so you need to be a member of that party to be able to vote in that.

00:07:38.000 And then you would be able to, from there, if you're a member of that party, exercise your interest in saying,

00:07:43.380 I want to vote for Dan or I don't want to vote for Dan.

00:07:45.780 If I win that sort of pre-election, the nomination, then it goes to a general election.

00:07:49.700 And in Alberta, along with much of the prairies, so Western sort of prairie provinces,

00:07:55.880 it's really a debate between the conservatives on one side in some form and the NDP, the New Democratic Party on the other.

00:08:03.160 And the NDP is, as you stated, they're self-defined as socialist in their own constitution.

00:08:08.900 Interestingly, the roots of the conservatives within Alberta and all the Western provinces

00:08:13.680 and the roots of the NDP come from the same place, this sort of populist, prairie populism movement.

00:08:19.700 Which doesn't have the same connection to populism that people associate with the rest of the world.

00:08:24.520 It existed long before populism became a common sort of attack in public commentary referring to Trump and others internationally.

00:08:32.140 Prairie populism is what the socialists grew out of with the CCF,

00:08:36.720 which was actually formed at the Royal Canadian Legion in Calgary, from my understanding.

00:08:40.700 And out of that branch also came a grassroots reform movement.

00:08:47.200 It came as a social credit party earlier on in Alberta's history,

00:08:50.860 and then eventually became sort of the conservative articulation of populism.

00:08:54.780 Right, so there's a bottom-up, bubbling up of political sentiment that's very characteristic of Western Canada.

00:09:03.060 That's exactly right.

00:09:03.880 It makes itself manifest on the centre-right and on the centre-left.

00:09:07.600 And the socialists in Canada were really a working-class labour union party up until, what, 20 years ago?

00:09:16.220 15 years ago when things started to shift?

00:09:18.640 Something like that.

00:09:19.300 Today's NDP is not your grandfather's NDP.

00:09:21.380 No, that's for sure.

00:09:22.200 I mean, you come from the same part of Alberta I come from, where Grant Notley,

00:09:25.580 who was a member of the legislature at the time for the Socialist Party,

00:09:29.520 was elected in rural Alberta, which is as deep blue, i.e. as deep conservative as it gets in Canada.

00:09:35.580 Yeah.

00:09:36.040 And so it's very, very different.

00:09:38.720 You can even look at George Grant, who I think is one of Canada's greatest political authors and public commentators,

00:09:43.740 who started off supporting the CCF and the NDP and then quickly realised that this was not the brand that he wanted to get behind

00:09:54.080 and became a big backer of Diefenbaker.

00:09:57.500 And he wrote his famous book, Lament for a Nation, with the defeat of Diefenbaker in the 62 election.

00:10:04.740 Right. So in Canada, for a reasonable amount of time, I think it was appropriate for the socialists,

00:10:13.880 especially on the Labour Party end, to represent themselves as emblematic of working people.

00:10:22.280 And the Conservatives were more and regarded more as the party of large business enterprises.

00:10:29.520 And so, and that's shifted substantially in Canada now, both at the federal and the provincial level.

00:10:35.660 Do you want to comment on that?

00:10:37.040 Yeah, I'd say that it was really the Liberals that were the corporatist party for the longest time within Canada.

00:10:43.780 If you look at Diefenbaker's campaign, you look at the NDP,

00:10:47.840 they both were fighting over a working class population with different values that inform it,

00:10:53.440 but it was the Liberals that were the corporatists more than anything else.

00:10:56.160 And that changed with the West generally, whether you're looking at the UK, US, the entire Anglo sphere,

00:11:04.140 you saw that Conservative parties became more associated with corporate interests.

00:11:07.740 That's not the historical roots of Conservatism in Canada, right?

00:11:11.240 It was, as you said, bubbling up, grassroots, different versions of a blue-collar interest

00:11:17.120 that grew out of the same place within the prayers.

00:11:20.220 It's similar in some ways to what's happening with the MAGA movement in the United States,

00:11:24.520 although Americans are more dramatic and they have more of a flair for showmanship.

00:11:30.440 So there's an over-the-top theatricality about American politics that has really been absent in Canada.

00:11:38.080 We're much more sedate in our political operations.

00:11:41.340 I think it's partly because, as well,

00:11:43.740 can you talk a little bit about the restrictions on campaigning in Canada?

00:11:47.140 Yeah, so dollars and cents are much more limited within Canada.

00:11:50.820 So the campaign that I would run, the provincial law limits to approximately $50,000 within my constituency,

00:11:56.740 which is ample.

00:11:57.960 I have to put up some signs and be able to host some coffees and be able to get around the constituency,

00:12:02.060 which is quite big.

00:12:03.380 It's about 100,000 square kilometres, the same territory you're from.

00:12:06.560 So it's the same size as the island of Newfoundland,

00:12:09.600 or, I mean, I bet you I could find a half dozen American states that are smaller than my constituency.

00:12:13.700 And so it's quite a large area, and that's where a lot of the dollars go.

00:12:17.860 So the politics is different because of the limitations on dollars and cents, for sure.

00:12:23.380 Yeah, well, and there's a duration limitation, too, right?

00:12:25.760 So the intense campaigning is, what, 90 days, generally speaking?

00:12:30.540 Yeah, well, the writ period is normally about 30 days.

00:12:33.460 That's what it is within Alberta law.

00:12:35.600 As we move to a more of an American fixed election date,

00:12:39.320 that is becoming less of an important distinction.

00:12:41.680 Historically, with snap elections in the Westminster system,

00:12:44.600 it's not like the American system,

00:12:45.860 where we know every four years there's going to be an election in whatever,

00:12:49.840 whether you're talking presidential or a Congress election,

00:12:52.600 on these four-year cycles.

00:12:54.100 What instead happened in Canada and the UK and the Western Westminster system,

00:12:59.160 all across the Commonwealth,

00:13:00.860 was you could have an election any time.

00:13:03.200 So spending valuable campaign resources

00:13:05.340 with an attempt to campaign before you know there's an election did not make sense.

00:13:09.460 So the 30-day writ period really was effectively that official campaign,

00:13:14.500 and people largely stuck to it.

00:13:16.480 Increasingly, there are more jurisdictions like Alberta

00:13:18.340 that are going to a fixed election date.

00:13:20.280 And so as people see that campaign coming,

00:13:23.200 there are more and more use of campaign resources happening

00:13:26.860 before the campaign period even begins.

00:13:29.460 I want to talk about a little bit or ask you a little bit about

00:13:33.320 the situation of Alberta in relationship to the federal government

00:13:38.240 and the drama that's playing out in Canada,

00:13:40.380 because I think that what's happening in Canada

00:13:43.200 is emblematic of what's happening in the West in general,

00:13:46.360 especially on the energy side.

00:13:47.780 Now, one of the things you pointed out is that the provinces

00:13:50.120 and the federal government have very different jurisdictions of power.

00:13:53.280 And we should be clear, just so everybody understands,

00:13:55.700 that the jurisdictions of power that the provinces have in Canada

00:13:59.060 are not trivial.

00:14:00.640 Energy and resources, health, education.

00:14:03.380 Education, transportation.

00:14:04.580 So just those three alone, really,

00:14:07.080 what you could argue take up the bulk

00:14:09.280 of what might be considered normal, important politics.

00:14:13.060 And so those are provincial jurisdictions.

00:14:14.960 Now, there's a reasonable amount of tension in Canada

00:14:18.180 at the moment between the provinces

00:14:20.720 and also between the provinces,

00:14:22.840 some of the provinces in the federal government.

00:14:24.600 So let's talk about province-to-province tension at the moment.

00:14:30.160 So walk us through the equalization payment issue.

00:14:36.000 So equalization is a wealth redistribution mechanism.

00:14:39.900 In fact, it's a suite of different mechanisms that happen.

00:14:42.600 And some of them are formalized

00:14:44.980 under this idea of transfer payments.

00:14:47.600 And some of them are informal,

00:14:49.400 just in the way that the federal government collects taxes

00:14:51.960 and the way that they spend those taxes afterwards.

00:14:54.780 But the way that it works is the idea

00:14:57.140 is that some provinces at different times in history

00:14:59.480 have been flush.

00:15:00.760 They've been able to support their own residents

00:15:04.280 because of natural resources,

00:15:06.560 because of economic investment,

00:15:08.380 of all sorts of different varieties.

00:15:10.100 And the idea is,

00:15:11.300 in spite of one province doing well,

00:15:13.800 we want to make sure the entire country is able to manage.

00:15:17.740 And I think most Albertans are big Canadians.

00:15:20.520 They're big Westerners, 0.72

00:15:21.300 and they want to see the rest of the province succeed,

00:15:23.860 the rest of the provinces succeed.

00:15:25.660 But increasingly, it's become really clear

00:15:27.660 for Albertans for a long time now

00:15:29.920 that Alberta is not getting its fair share,

00:15:32.300 that increasingly we see a huge transfer,

00:15:35.100 the tune of billions of dollars leaving Alberta

00:15:37.500 and not returning,

00:15:38.820 collected in taxes

00:15:39.700 because we have a younger population,

00:15:41.880 higher employment rate,

00:15:43.700 with higher salaries,

00:15:45.060 working in the resource industry,

00:15:46.720 that some neighboring provinces

00:15:48.100 will collect those dollars

00:15:50.220 in redistribution payments,

00:15:51.880 but want to shut down the industry at the same time.

00:15:53.820 Well, so there's a variety of things here

00:15:56.760 that are worth delving into.

00:15:57.920 So I found out, for example,

00:15:59.520 that Quebec,

00:16:00.980 which is the province,

00:16:02.200 the French-speaking province primarily,

00:16:04.880 to which the bulk of Albertan transfer payments go,

00:16:09.920 and Quebec,

00:16:11.980 I'm speaking,

00:16:14.020 what would you say,

00:16:15.120 generally here,

00:16:16.280 but the sentiment in Quebec

00:16:18.620 is quite strongly anti-energy development.

00:16:22.240 And yet their economy depends

00:16:24.840 on the transfer payments

00:16:26.040 that come from Alberta.

00:16:27.780 And even more to the point,

00:16:30.600 Quebec has enough natural gas

00:16:32.200 to supply itself for 200 years

00:16:34.280 or the European economic block

00:16:39.320 for 50 years.

00:16:40.960 And they've decided,

00:16:42.780 for one reason or another,

00:16:43.760 not to develop those resources,

00:16:46.140 which is a very interesting decision,

00:16:47.740 especially given that they import

00:16:49.180 hundreds of millions of dollars

00:16:50.540 worth of natural gas from the United States,

00:16:52.340 which seems relatively insane,

00:16:54.100 given that it's sitting there

00:16:55.140 right underneath the ground.

00:16:56.280 And so this is something

00:16:57.700 that actually gets my back up

00:16:59.000 to quite a degree.

00:16:59.720 And I don't know

00:17:00.180 if I'm actually reasonable about it

00:17:01.540 because it's one thing

00:17:03.860 for Albertans

00:17:04.740 to transfer billions of dollars

00:17:06.320 to Quebec, let's say.

00:17:07.880 It's a whole other thing

00:17:08.960 to do so well

00:17:11.180 the Quebec population

00:17:12.540 moralizes about their superiority

00:17:14.640 on the environmental front

00:17:16.160 while perfectly taking the money

00:17:18.300 that the energy industry

00:17:19.840 is capable of producing.

00:17:21.540 And it's not merely

00:17:22.920 a parochial concern on my part,

00:17:25.480 being an Albertan, let's say.

00:17:27.180 I lived in Quebec.

00:17:28.100 I loved Montreal.

00:17:29.200 There's some great things about Quebec.

00:17:30.960 Don't get me wrong.

00:17:32.220 But their high-handed moralizing

00:17:34.420 with regards to the energy industry

00:17:35.880 is not one of the things

00:17:37.020 that is good about Quebec.

00:17:38.600 And it's also the case,

00:17:40.160 you can tell me

00:17:40.620 what you think about this.

00:17:43.220 Christmas is coming up

00:17:44.560 and it's so easy

00:17:45.640 to get caught up in all of it,

00:17:46.960 the shopping lists,

00:17:47.860 the travel plans,

00:17:48.700 the complex family dynamics.

00:17:50.480 But when we pause

00:17:51.280 and truly consider

00:17:52.040 what Christmas celebrates

00:17:53.200 that God became man to save us,

00:17:55.240 it demands nothing less

00:17:56.340 than a complete shift

00:17:57.260 in our attention.

00:17:58.460 If you're looking to prepare

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00:18:58.520 Most of the people

00:18:59.560 who are bilingual in Canada

00:19:00.780 come from Quebec

00:19:01.540 and you have to be bilingual

00:19:04.480 essentially,

00:19:06.340 and correct me

00:19:06.920 if I've got any of this wrong,

00:19:08.060 to work in the civil service.

00:19:10.420 And so what that means,

00:19:11.880 and I've never seen figures

00:19:13.020 to lay this out statistically,

00:19:15.460 is that the denizens of Quebec

00:19:18.000 are radically overrepresented

00:19:19.820 in Canada's version

00:19:21.020 of the deep state.

00:19:22.100 And that also doesn't strike me

00:19:23.480 as particularly good

00:19:24.380 for Alberta's interests.

00:19:25.660 And so one of the things

00:19:26.800 I'm curious about,

00:19:27.840 and maybe this will be

00:19:28.500 the most contentious part

00:19:29.580 of the interview,

00:19:30.260 is I don't understand

00:19:31.520 why Alberta puts up with this. 1.00

00:19:33.300 Like, if something radical

00:19:35.700 was done,

00:19:36.160 like, I know this isn't going

00:19:37.520 to happen and I'm not saying

00:19:38.520 it should happen,

00:19:39.140 but if Alberta said,

00:19:40.520 we're done with transfer payments,

00:19:42.260 what would happen?

00:19:44.140 Well, I mean,

00:19:44.800 the problem is

00:19:45.200 we don't collect the taxes

00:19:46.340 the federal government does.

00:19:47.240 So there's only so many levers

00:19:48.480 we hold.

00:19:49.440 I think Albertans have said

00:19:50.500 politically over and over again,

00:19:51.900 we're done with being treated

00:19:53.540 as second-class citizens

00:19:54.560 within our own country.

00:19:55.640 We're a member

00:19:56.040 of the Confederation.

00:19:57.220 We're a part of Canada.

00:19:58.480 We're providing

00:19:59.060 an economic engine

00:20:00.880 so that Quebec can thrive,

00:20:02.540 so that when the fisheries

00:20:03.680 shut down on the East Coast,

00:20:04.880 we saw thousands

00:20:06.200 upon thousands of folks

00:20:07.480 from Newfoundland

00:20:08.240 and other parts

00:20:09.160 of the Maritimes

00:20:10.020 in Eastern Canada

00:20:10.660 come to Alberta

00:20:11.720 to work in the oil sands

00:20:13.440 in Northern Alberta

00:20:14.040 and Fort McMurray

00:20:14.880 to work in the oil and gas

00:20:16.560 and the energy industry.

00:20:17.460 And they were welcomed.

00:20:18.180 And very, I mean,

00:20:19.280 I have a friend

00:20:20.300 who married a friend

00:20:22.040 out in the East Coast

00:20:22.840 and there's this expression

00:20:24.920 out in the East Coast

00:20:25.600 where you're a CFA,

00:20:26.760 a come-from-away.

00:20:27.640 He's going to have grandkids

00:20:29.120 that are going to own

00:20:29.660 a cottage there

00:20:30.420 and they're going to be CFAs,

00:20:31.520 whereas in Alberta,

00:20:32.620 you get a driver's license

00:20:33.800 or a library card,

00:20:35.180 you're from Alberta.

00:20:35.840 Yeah, it's a remarkably

00:20:37.460 classless society in Alberta.

00:20:38.880 It is.

00:20:39.600 And I knew Rex Murphy well

00:20:41.680 and Canada's most famous

00:20:43.080 Newfoundlander

00:20:43.840 and he was,

00:20:45.420 he and the people he knew

00:20:46.580 and I toured through

00:20:47.460 Newfoundland with Rex

00:20:48.520 were extraordinarily grateful

00:20:50.480 to Alberta

00:20:51.280 for the welcome

00:20:51.980 that the Newfies had 0.97

00:20:52.880 when the cod fishery collapsed

00:20:54.080 and it was genuine.

00:20:55.380 And I mean,

00:20:55.980 I grew up at the height

00:20:57.900 of the oil boom in Alberta

00:20:59.300 and I can remember

00:21:00.700 the influx of people

00:21:02.120 from Newfoundland

00:21:02.840 and the only friction

00:21:05.380 really that ever occurred

00:21:06.540 and it wasn't friction,

00:21:08.500 people told Newfie jokes.

00:21:10.680 But other than that,

00:21:11.840 and they weren't harsh

00:21:12.720 and they weren't mean,

00:21:13.920 they were funny

00:21:14.520 and Newfoundlanders

00:21:15.560 have a great sense of humor

00:21:16.600 by and large,

00:21:17.240 so it wasn't a problem.

00:21:18.200 But my experience was

00:21:19.800 that Alberta really did

00:21:20.860 welcome in the Newfies

00:21:22.020 with open arms.

00:21:23.480 Absolutely.

00:21:24.180 Many of them

00:21:24.860 are just Albertans now

00:21:26.120 and we happily consider them

00:21:28.280 a part of our culture

00:21:29.460 and our heritage

00:21:30.080 and who we are

00:21:31.120 that we're able

00:21:32.440 to provide energy

00:21:33.420 to so much of Canada jobs.

00:21:35.540 It's not just

00:21:36.220 an economic point

00:21:37.100 and I think

00:21:37.580 as a conservative

00:21:38.640 in Alberta

00:21:39.140 and I need to make this clear,

00:21:40.640 it's a social

00:21:41.320 and a cultural point

00:21:42.360 this bound Canada together

00:21:44.320 to have two different sides

00:21:46.100 that had very few

00:21:47.140 common experiences.

00:21:48.660 I mean,

00:21:48.820 I went to Newfoundland,

00:21:49.540 I couldn't understand

00:21:50.140 the weather report,

00:21:51.560 but being able to connect

00:21:53.560 through this economic engine

00:21:55.600 of the oil and gas industry

00:21:57.160 in Alberta

00:21:57.580 allowed us to bond together

00:21:59.300 with this distant,

00:22:00.420 far-flung part of the country

00:22:01.800 that only joined in 1949.

00:22:03.360 So there is some utility

00:22:04.480 in spreading the risk.

00:22:05.860 Like you could think

00:22:06.380 about the transfer payment structure

00:22:08.040 if it was run fairly

00:22:09.200 as a form of insurance,

00:22:10.520 long-term insurance, right?

00:22:11.800 So when you're doing well,

00:22:13.580 well, then you can afford

00:22:14.460 to be generous

00:22:15.040 and when you're not doing so well,

00:22:16.420 then maybe another,

00:22:17.500 like the manufacturing sector

00:22:19.180 might be booming.

00:22:20.840 Alberta,

00:22:21.440 if I remember correctly,

00:22:22.440 was the recipient

00:22:23.080 of transfer payments

00:22:24.020 at some point.

00:22:25.000 Yeah.

00:22:25.180 Yes.

00:22:25.640 Yeah, I believe so.

00:22:26.360 Yes.

00:22:26.720 I stand to be corrected.

00:22:27.740 Alberta was also developed

00:22:28.860 to some degree

00:22:30.920 as a consequence

00:22:32.140 of investment

00:22:32.960 in the West

00:22:33.620 by the Citroën.

00:22:35.120 By McDonald

00:22:35.660 and the CP Rail line,

00:22:37.760 of course.

00:22:38.360 Yeah, so it can be

00:22:39.060 a deal that works,

00:22:40.060 but at the moment,

00:22:40.900 like, well,

00:22:42.900 there's a bunch of...

00:22:43.240 It's the hypocrisy

00:22:44.100 that's the issue.

00:22:44.860 It's the idea that...

00:22:45.500 And the money. 0.77

00:22:46.400 The hypocrisy 0.76

00:22:47.160 and the money. 0.86

00:22:47.700 They go hand in hand,

00:22:49.480 right?

00:22:50.660 I mean,

00:22:51.220 Brad Wall,

00:22:51.720 a former premier

00:22:52.480 of Saskatchewan,

00:22:53.400 said,

00:22:53.680 maybe Quebec

00:22:54.380 will accept a pipeline

00:22:56.200 if we say

00:22:56.700 we'll only deliver

00:22:57.560 our transfer payments

00:22:58.840 through a pipeline.

00:22:59.840 Right, yeah.

00:23:00.820 You can't have one

00:23:01.820 without the other.

00:23:02.700 The idea of moralizing

00:23:04.200 about the energy industry

00:23:05.260 that provides,

00:23:06.240 again,

00:23:06.520 not just an economy,

00:23:07.920 but Rex Murphy

00:23:08.960 made this point,

00:23:09.940 it saved countless marriages.

00:23:12.320 It saved countless families.

00:23:14.380 The carnage that happens

00:23:15.840 when an economy collapses.

00:23:18.420 I mean,

00:23:19.100 when we see the GDP

00:23:19.980 of my province go down

00:23:21.360 as the Minister

00:23:21.900 of Mental Health

00:23:22.300 and Addiction,

00:23:23.060 I tragically see

00:23:24.340 suicide rates go up.

00:23:25.580 Yes.

00:23:25.840 And this is a corollary

00:23:26.840 that happens universally

00:23:28.060 across the world.

00:23:29.160 I mean,

00:23:29.620 it's not just

00:23:30.420 an economic argument.

00:23:31.620 It's about the fabric

00:23:32.320 of who we are as Canadians.

00:23:33.820 It's about the idea

00:23:34.640 that there's fairness

00:23:35.500 in our confederation.

00:23:37.120 It's the idea

00:23:37.380 that you can help someone out,

00:23:39.500 not just economically,

00:23:40.780 but help them be able

00:23:41.620 to provide for their family,

00:23:43.400 save a marriage.

00:23:44.140 That is meaningful,

00:23:45.260 meaningful collaboration.

00:23:46.400 Albertans have no axe

00:23:47.660 to grind with that.

00:23:48.760 So many of us

00:23:49.480 come from other parts

00:23:50.200 of the country initially.

00:23:51.720 We have a problem

00:23:52.560 with the very means

00:23:53.580 in which we're enabling

00:23:54.400 the rest of the country

00:23:55.240 to succeed

00:23:55.820 is being dumped on

00:23:57.120 by them in the next breath.

00:23:57.860 Well,

00:23:58.000 we should take that apart

00:23:58.960 a bit more too.

00:23:59.820 So another thing

00:24:01.000 that for everybody

00:24:01.840 who's international

00:24:02.820 watching and listening,

00:24:03.780 another thing

00:24:04.220 that makes Alberta

00:24:05.000 of substantive interest

00:24:06.160 is that Alberta

00:24:06.880 has the third largest

00:24:07.940 fossil fuel reserves

00:24:09.400 in the world.

00:24:10.000 and also the technology

00:24:15.820 and the relatively strict

00:24:17.380 environmental regulations

00:24:18.520 to allow those resources

00:24:19.940 to be used

00:24:20.740 in the most environmentally

00:24:22.660 friendly manner

00:24:24.100 given the framework

00:24:26.260 of fossil fuel utilization.

00:24:27.680 And so the truth

00:24:29.520 of the matter

00:24:29.960 is that stark

00:24:31.520 cold truth

00:24:32.460 of the matter

00:24:32.860 is that if we don't

00:24:33.980 use Alberta fossil fuels

00:24:35.800 then China burns coal

00:24:38.340 for example,

00:24:39.140 which they are

00:24:39.720 at a substantial rate.

00:24:41.040 And part of the reason

00:24:44.160 that's happening

00:24:44.720 is because we're saddled

00:24:45.660 with a federal government

00:24:46.740 who most insultingly

00:24:49.560 put Guilbeau,

00:24:51.320 right?

00:24:51.700 What's his ministry?

00:24:53.020 Environment.

00:24:53.960 Right, right, right.

00:24:55.120 And he's been

00:24:55.620 an environmental activist

00:24:56.620 since he was five.

00:24:57.780 He was arrested,

00:24:58.800 I think,

00:24:59.500 with some sort

00:25:00.760 of environmental activism

00:25:01.720 with Greenpeace

00:25:02.460 in the past.

00:25:03.240 Like it's just,

00:25:03.780 it's surreal to Albertans

00:25:05.540 that this is...

00:25:06.340 It's surreal.

00:25:06.800 This is the way

00:25:07.580 that Prime Minister Trudeau

00:25:09.220 chooses to try

00:25:10.480 and support our industries

00:25:11.680 appointing the most

00:25:12.460 radical activists

00:25:13.800 against us

00:25:14.500 to the Minister

00:25:15.340 of the Crown

00:25:15.820 who is responsible

00:25:17.000 for overseeing

00:25:18.580 this in the country.

00:25:19.340 Yeah.

00:25:19.780 He couldn't have

00:25:21.220 possibly chosen

00:25:22.100 someone who would

00:25:22.880 manifest more enmity

00:25:23.940 to the basic

00:25:24.860 economic structure

00:25:25.720 of Western Canada.

00:25:26.920 And all of Canada.

00:25:28.600 Yes.

00:25:29.100 Well, right, right.

00:25:30.100 Yes, definitely.

00:25:30.600 That is the economic engine.

00:25:32.180 Well, and what's

00:25:32.700 the consequence?

00:25:33.700 So you know

00:25:34.300 that the poorest state

00:25:35.580 in the United States

00:25:36.340 by GDP

00:25:37.220 per capita

00:25:38.400 is Mississippi.

00:25:39.800 Yeah.

00:25:40.480 Canadians

00:25:41.000 in the richest province

00:25:42.760 have lower GDP

00:25:44.000 per capita

00:25:44.800 than people

00:25:45.620 in Mississippi.

00:25:46.720 Right.

00:25:46.960 And that divergence

00:25:48.240 has occurred

00:25:49.220 since Trudeau

00:25:50.560 took office.

00:25:51.740 So we're now

00:25:52.360 at 60%

00:25:53.380 of GDP

00:25:54.580 per capita

00:25:55.640 by American standards.

00:25:57.260 Now, the Europeans 0.99

00:25:57.820 aren't doing much better.

00:25:59.280 But in Canada,

00:26:00.580 it's particularly egregious

00:26:01.820 because there's absolutely

00:26:02.740 no reason at all

00:26:03.580 that Canadians,

00:26:04.440 we should be wealthier.

00:26:05.560 We should be wealthier

00:26:06.920 than the Americans 0.85

00:26:07.640 if we were governed

00:26:08.680 by people

00:26:09.380 who had even

00:26:09.900 the least amount

00:26:11.420 of sense,

00:26:12.240 federally in particular.

00:26:13.320 I think fundamentally

00:26:14.380 it comes down

00:26:15.040 to this recognition

00:26:15.880 that what choices

00:26:17.360 you make in government

00:26:18.180 have consequences.

00:26:19.060 It's not an abstraction.

00:26:20.780 I think that

00:26:21.740 the institutions

00:26:22.640 of Canada

00:26:23.260 have not been working

00:26:24.240 and we can go more

00:26:25.240 into that

00:26:25.580 because I think

00:26:25.960 it's a heart

00:26:26.600 of one of the problems

00:26:27.320 that we faced here.

00:26:28.820 But who we elect

00:26:30.020 and decisions we make

00:26:31.100 are consequential.

00:26:32.100 You don't believe me?

00:26:32.840 Look at the history

00:26:33.700 of Argentina

00:26:34.240 since the 1920s.

00:26:35.380 There's no guarantee.

00:26:36.380 Or even in the last year.

00:26:37.360 And the reversal, right?

00:26:39.140 So there is no guarantee

00:26:41.020 that because you were prosperous

00:26:42.920 and you could provide

00:26:44.000 for the vulnerable,

00:26:44.760 you could help those

00:26:45.980 who are destitute,

00:26:47.520 you could invest

00:26:48.880 in infrastructure

00:26:50.000 and in hospitals.

00:26:52.200 No guarantee

00:26:53.000 that you get to do that

00:26:53.820 indefinitely

00:26:54.220 into the future.

00:26:54.980 You need to manage

00:26:56.580 responsibly

00:26:57.500 in good governance,

00:26:58.340 which is Canada's heritage,

00:26:59.780 the gifts

00:27:01.160 that we've received

00:27:01.960 in stewardship.

00:27:03.500 And the Trudeau government

00:27:04.420 has absolutely wasted

00:27:06.140 the resources

00:27:07.140 that we've had.

00:27:08.400 And on top

00:27:09.440 of the economic disaster,

00:27:10.920 which again

00:27:11.580 has social consequences,

00:27:13.340 that's families

00:27:14.020 that are breaking apart,

00:27:15.100 suicides tragically

00:27:16.040 that increase.

00:27:16.860 On top of that,

00:27:17.920 they poured fuel

00:27:18.640 on a fire

00:27:19.280 and somehow

00:27:20.060 flamed,

00:27:21.120 fan those flames. 0.56

00:27:22.520 When we look

00:27:23.020 at the social policy,

00:27:23.980 when we talk about

00:27:24.860 the addiction crisis

00:27:25.820 in North America,

00:27:26.840 they somehow found a way

00:27:28.140 to take the addiction crisis

00:27:29.200 of the 1990s and 2000s

00:27:30.700 and make it worse.

00:27:32.200 Much worse.

00:27:32.940 And that is quite a feat.

00:27:34.100 Well, moralizing insanely.

00:27:35.820 That's right.

00:27:36.440 And having exactly

00:27:37.320 the opposite policy

00:27:38.640 of what the data

00:27:39.640 and the facts say

00:27:40.660 you ought to,

00:27:41.260 never mind common sense.

00:27:42.500 And that's just one example.

00:27:43.840 You could go across

00:27:44.920 the spectrum

00:27:45.400 and you could go

00:27:46.480 over and over again

00:27:47.320 and look at what

00:27:47.980 Canada has become. 0.58

00:27:49.120 And I think part of it

00:27:50.100 is the institutions

00:27:50.900 that we rely upon.

00:27:52.160 Canadians built institutions.

00:27:53.560 These institutions

00:27:54.120 were strong.

00:27:55.220 These institutions

00:27:55.940 were what mitigated

00:27:57.680 and sort of the common life

00:27:59.700 that Canadians lived through,

00:28:00.900 whether it's your schools

00:28:02.000 or you're talking about

00:28:03.960 recreation opportunities

00:28:05.980 or the government itself,

00:28:07.480 the courts,

00:28:08.360 the media,

00:28:10.220 the academia.

00:28:12.020 These are institutions

00:28:12.760 that mediated public life

00:28:14.340 that Canadians lived

00:28:15.800 through their interactions,

00:28:17.380 not often directly

00:28:18.440 with the prime minister's office,

00:28:20.140 but instead

00:28:20.800 through all these institutions.

00:28:22.580 And whether you're talking

00:28:23.280 about the Supreme Court,

00:28:25.020 the Senate,

00:28:25.440 or you're talking about

00:28:26.620 the way local sport clubs

00:28:28.080 are run,

00:28:28.980 they're failing Canadians.

00:28:32.040 So, okay,

00:28:33.260 so the,

00:28:35.920 let's talk about

00:28:37.020 some of Danielle Smith's

00:28:38.600 new initiatives.

00:28:39.400 Now,

00:28:40.840 the Conservatives

00:28:41.780 10 years ago,

00:28:43.140 I would say,

00:28:43.760 in Canada

00:28:44.240 had been set back

00:28:45.480 on their heels

00:28:46.160 on the moral front

00:28:47.460 and tactically

00:28:48.580 by the radical progressives.

00:28:50.540 And my experience

00:28:51.500 with the progressives

00:28:52.300 at that time

00:28:52.920 was that they were

00:28:54.420 uncertain about

00:28:55.720 how to proceed,

00:28:56.680 not least because

00:28:57.900 if they manifested

00:28:59.200 any signs

00:28:59.900 of social conservatism

00:29:01.340 rather than

00:29:02.280 economic conservatism,

00:29:03.780 the progressives

00:29:04.440 would isolate them

00:29:05.260 one by one 0.70

00:29:05.760 and take them out.

00:29:06.960 And so,

00:29:07.660 but over the last

00:29:08.660 10 years,

00:29:09.340 I've seen a new breed 0.88

00:29:10.640 of conservative

00:29:11.400 emerge in Canada.

00:29:13.540 Both Poliev 1.00

00:29:14.500 and Danielle Smith,

00:29:16.060 the premier of Alberta,

00:29:16.960 I think are emblematic

00:29:17.760 of that.

00:29:18.160 And she's a tough cookie

00:29:19.560 and she's smart

00:29:20.580 and she just made 1.00

00:29:21.840 some modifications

00:29:22.600 to the Alberta

00:29:23.440 Human Rights Act.

00:29:25.200 That's right.

00:29:25.820 Human Rights Act.

00:29:26.860 Alberta Bill of Rights.

00:29:27.960 The Alberta Bill of Rights.

00:29:30.020 Right.

00:29:30.300 Okay.

00:29:30.620 So,

00:29:31.180 can you detail out

00:29:32.560 that a bit

00:29:33.160 and also explain

00:29:34.900 why she did that? 1.00

00:29:35.900 And people are going

00:29:36.680 to be wondering too,

00:29:37.580 including Albertans

00:29:38.440 and other Canadians,

00:29:39.340 like,

00:29:39.580 well,

00:29:39.780 how does Alberta

00:29:41.480 have a Bill of Rights?

00:29:43.660 What's the relationship

00:29:44.600 between that

00:29:45.240 and the Canadian

00:29:45.780 Charter of Rights?

00:29:46.760 Right.

00:29:46.960 So,

00:29:47.160 the Canadian Charter

00:29:48.000 of Rights and Freedoms

00:29:48.780 is a constitutional document.

00:29:50.840 Pierre Trudeau,

00:29:51.500 Trudeau Sr.,

00:29:52.320 Justin Trudeau,

00:29:52.960 the current Prime Minister's father,

00:29:55.080 repatriated the Constitution

00:29:56.140 in 1982,

00:29:57.300 which is just a way

00:29:58.280 of saying that

00:29:59.100 he said that

00:30:00.580 the buck stops,

00:30:01.540 again,

00:30:01.880 with Parliament

00:30:02.600 and the Supreme Court

00:30:03.500 of Canada

00:30:03.880 rather than going back

00:30:04.980 to London

00:30:06.080 for a final say.

00:30:07.900 And so,

00:30:08.560 part of that

00:30:09.020 was also introducing

00:30:09.860 a Charter of Rights

00:30:10.900 and Freedoms.

00:30:11.780 Now,

00:30:11.960 when that Charter

00:30:12.400 was introduced,

00:30:13.680 the intention was

00:30:14.980 to preserve

00:30:15.620 Canadians'

00:30:16.020 liberties and freedoms.

00:30:17.880 And it was meant

00:30:18.520 to be... 0.95

00:30:18.980 Hypothetically. 0.99

00:30:19.640 Well,

00:30:20.240 I think there's

00:30:21.020 a lot of concern

00:30:21.800 and we can talk

00:30:23.080 about the role

00:30:23.800 of the Supreme Court,

00:30:24.700 which I think

00:30:25.040 is one of the more

00:30:25.700 fascinating conversations

00:30:26.780 that Canadians

00:30:27.360 aren't having

00:30:28.060 in relation

00:30:29.200 to the elected

00:30:29.900 parliaments

00:30:30.840 and legislatures

00:30:31.560 of Canada.

00:30:32.800 But the Alberta

00:30:33.880 Bill of Rights

00:30:34.540 was one that

00:30:35.220 predates that Charter.

00:30:36.520 Right.

00:30:36.760 That's an important point.

00:30:37.900 Right.

00:30:38.120 It predates it.

00:30:38.880 And it applies

00:30:39.720 to provincial jurisdiction.

00:30:41.260 Obviously,

00:30:41.940 Alberta can't be 0.99

00:30:42.600 making laws

00:30:43.040 that apply

00:30:43.500 to federal jurisdiction

00:30:44.440 and it's not

00:30:46.000 constitutional

00:30:46.680 in that sense.

00:30:48.120 What it is

00:30:48.940 is a document

00:30:49.960 that has

00:30:50.600 sort of precedence

00:30:51.820 within our series

00:30:53.040 of different,

00:30:53.640 you know,

00:30:54.000 bills and legislation

00:30:54.820 that we have passed

00:30:55.500 in Alberta

00:30:55.880 that is meant

00:30:56.960 to protect

00:30:57.600 Alberta's rights.

00:30:58.360 And it has not

00:30:59.100 been updated

00:30:59.620 for decades.

00:31:00.780 And so the idea

00:31:01.440 that Premier Smith

00:31:02.160 had,

00:31:02.560 especially coming out

00:31:03.720 of what has been

00:31:04.240 a turbulent time

00:31:05.440 where lots of

00:31:06.560 fraught debate

00:31:07.400 had happened

00:31:07.940 throughout COVID

00:31:08.980 and much of our society

00:31:10.620 with other crises

00:31:12.340 saying we need

00:31:13.320 to make sure

00:31:13.720 this reflects

00:31:14.480 the interests

00:31:15.420 of Albertans.

00:31:16.520 And so within

00:31:17.160 Alberta jurisdiction,

00:31:18.480 this bill

00:31:19.220 is going to amend

00:31:20.120 and include

00:31:20.660 different rights,

00:31:22.760 right to property,

00:31:24.320 gun ownership.

00:31:24.660 That's an important one

00:31:25.500 because property rights

00:31:26.320 in Canada

00:31:26.780 are relatively weak.

00:31:28.240 Yeah, that's right.

00:31:29.300 I mean,

00:31:29.540 I'm a natural law theorist

00:31:30.960 so I would say

00:31:31.460 that what law,

00:31:32.420 positive law

00:31:33.360 only reflects,

00:31:34.380 so the laws

00:31:34.820 that we pass

00:31:35.420 can only reflect

00:31:36.260 the fundamental laws

00:31:38.200 that exist before us.

00:31:39.600 Right?

00:31:39.740 And so the

00:31:40.660 Charter of Rights

00:31:41.120 and Freedoms

00:31:41.700 when Section 7,

00:31:42.780 its most famous section,

00:31:44.320 protects the right

00:31:45.180 to life,

00:31:45.600 liberty,

00:31:45.840 and security

00:31:46.220 of the person,

00:31:46.940 it was great

00:31:47.620 that Parliament

00:31:48.400 and every single

00:31:49.620 province in Canada

00:31:50.400 reflected that

00:31:51.840 and admits that

00:31:52.660 but it's not as though

00:31:53.420 there wasn't a right

00:31:54.100 to life,

00:31:54.600 liberty,

00:31:54.780 and security

00:31:55.100 of the person

00:31:55.540 before it became

00:31:57.120 a part of the Constitution.

00:31:58.580 I mean,

00:31:58.740 that's a fundamental assumption

00:31:59.820 about the nature

00:32:00.460 of how rights work.

00:32:02.100 And part of the

00:32:03.020 English common law tradition.

00:32:04.320 That's exactly right.

00:32:05.820 That's right.

00:32:06.740 And that common law

00:32:07.800 is based on a natural law

00:32:09.280 that is reason,

00:32:10.080 that exists independent

00:32:11.080 of any positive

00:32:12.980 articulation of it.

00:32:14.060 And so this Bill

00:32:16.460 of Rights

00:32:16.920 is meant to be

00:32:18.200 a reflection

00:32:18.960 on the reality

00:32:19.660 of those rights.

00:32:20.700 And you could quote

00:32:21.740 anyone from Locke

00:32:22.920 to Pope Leo XIII

00:32:24.340 in Rio Noverum

00:32:25.740 and you could talk

00:32:27.460 about how rights

00:32:28.760 and the rights of men

00:32:30.480 predate the state.

00:32:31.520 They pre-exist the state.

00:32:32.620 And that's the nature

00:32:33.300 of how rights work.

00:32:34.240 And so now,

00:32:36.580 Smith and your government

00:32:37.840 have fortified,

00:32:39.180 for example,

00:32:40.380 people's rights

00:32:41.000 to bodily autonomy

00:32:42.460 and integrity.

00:32:43.180 So if I understood correctly,

00:32:44.460 this is probably

00:32:45.140 the most media-relevant

00:32:47.620 portion of

00:32:48.820 the transformation

00:32:49.780 that Smith

00:32:50.420 is introducing.

00:32:53.160 She's forbidding

00:32:54.320 vaccine mandates.

00:32:55.720 Yeah,

00:32:55.960 I would say,

00:32:56.700 in effect,

00:32:57.620 forbidding vaccine mandates.

00:32:59.080 That's right.

00:32:59.480 Because there is,

00:33:00.740 I would articulate it

00:33:01.760 saying that

00:33:02.460 because we have

00:33:04.960 intrinsic human dignity,

00:33:06.920 right,

00:33:07.120 that means that

00:33:08.500 with that dignity,

00:33:09.660 when we're in possession

00:33:10.560 of our faculties,

00:33:11.340 when we can reasonably

00:33:12.140 make our own decisions,

00:33:13.420 when it comes to healthcare,

00:33:14.980 we ought to,

00:33:16.320 right?

00:33:16.620 You know,

00:33:16.880 the Aussies are starting 0.91

00:33:17.980 to apologize

00:33:18.640 for the vaccine mandates

00:33:19.960 at the state level.

00:33:21.220 Yeah,

00:33:21.400 that happened this week.

00:33:22.740 Interesting.

00:33:23.260 Yeah,

00:33:23.360 yeah.

00:33:23.560 Well,

00:33:24.240 the problem is,

00:33:25.400 I think,

00:33:26.940 and this is probably

00:33:27.880 a conservative proclivity,

00:33:29.220 but we could have

00:33:30.940 a discussion about that.

00:33:32.160 And if your policy,

00:33:34.020 maybe there's an exception

00:33:34.980 for criminals,

00:33:35.800 let's say that to begin with.

00:33:37.540 There's an exception

00:33:38.500 for people who just

00:33:39.540 will not play fair

00:33:40.700 no matter what.

00:33:42.120 Generally speaking,

00:33:43.100 if your policy requires force,

00:33:44.760 it's badly constituted.

00:33:47.720 Now,

00:33:48.280 and so,

00:33:48.980 the vaccine policies

00:33:50.000 required force

00:33:50.880 and so,

00:33:51.620 they weren't invitational

00:33:52.700 and they should have

00:33:53.360 been invitational.

00:33:54.760 And so,

00:33:55.520 that was a big mistake

00:33:56.560 and there are

00:33:57.620 cascading consequences

00:33:58.620 of that

00:33:59.040 that are independent

00:33:59.780 of whether or not

00:34:00.460 the vaccines work

00:34:01.380 or whether they

00:34:02.200 produce side effects

00:34:03.140 independent of the

00:34:04.060 vaccine debate per se

00:34:05.180 is that

00:34:06.000 public trust

00:34:08.080 in public health

00:34:08.960 has plummeted.

00:34:10.300 And the reason for that

00:34:11.140 is that if you use force,

00:34:12.720 even for the good,

00:34:14.440 if you use force,

00:34:15.420 people aren't going

00:34:15.900 to trust you.

00:34:16.880 They're going to wonder

00:34:17.440 what the hell you're up to. 0.65

00:34:19.020 And rightly so. 0.91

00:34:20.560 And so,

00:34:21.220 even if the vaccine

00:34:22.820 program worked,

00:34:25.220 and I don't think,

00:34:26.120 I don't think there's

00:34:27.040 a shred of evidence

00:34:27.760 for that,

00:34:28.220 by the way,

00:34:28.640 but I think you could

00:34:29.700 have a debate about that,

00:34:31.180 I think it's indisputable

00:34:33.320 that the use of force

00:34:35.000 has counter consequences.

00:34:39.700 So,

00:34:40.320 for example,

00:34:40.880 there's way more skepticism

00:34:42.160 about vaccines in general

00:34:43.540 and perhaps some of that

00:34:44.460 is warranted.

00:34:45.140 I mean,

00:34:45.240 Robert Kennedy

00:34:45.840 is certainly pushing

00:34:46.560 that idea.

00:34:47.540 But,

00:34:47.880 diluting the trust

00:34:49.920 that people have

00:34:50.760 in the institutions

00:34:51.500 that had protected them

00:34:53.500 for a long time

00:34:54.400 is a very bad idea.

00:34:56.600 So,

00:34:57.100 now,

00:34:58.040 Smith has also

00:34:59.260 reduced the power

00:35:01.900 of the regulatory boards,

00:35:04.220 the colleges,

00:35:04.960 the professional colleges,

00:35:06.060 for example.

00:35:07.080 And so,

00:35:07.700 that's welcome news

00:35:08.580 to someone like me,

00:35:09.540 of course,

00:35:09.960 because I'm still in danger

00:35:11.780 of being re-educated

00:35:13.760 if the Ontario

00:35:15.480 College of Psychologists

00:35:17.620 and behavioural analysts

00:35:19.200 can never get

00:35:19.720 their act together,

00:35:20.440 which is highly improbable

00:35:22.040 given their

00:35:22.840 previous behaviour.

00:35:24.700 But she's 0.97

00:35:25.340 increased the protection

00:35:27.340 for freedom of speech.

00:35:29.340 I mean,

00:35:29.660 the Supreme Court

00:35:30.300 in Canada

00:35:30.780 basically decided

00:35:31.660 in my case

00:35:32.320 that,

00:35:33.320 as far as I can tell,

00:35:34.300 my interpretation

00:35:34.880 of their ruling

00:35:36.220 or their refusal

00:35:37.280 to hear my appeal

00:35:38.140 was something

00:35:38.840 approximating

00:35:39.660 the professional

00:35:41.520 regulatory boards

00:35:42.360 can do anything

00:35:42.980 they want

00:35:43.620 that's reasonable.

00:35:45.700 I don't know

00:35:46.400 who determines

00:35:46.940 that precisely

00:35:47.860 and the charter

00:35:49.220 be damned. 0.92

00:35:50.360 And so, 0.98

00:35:50.740 that seems to me

00:35:51.420 to be a very bad idea

00:35:52.520 given that

00:35:52.980 one in five Canadians

00:35:54.160 are in a regulated profession.

00:35:55.720 And I know,

00:35:56.840 I've talked to

00:35:57.840 many, many people

00:35:59.100 who are

00:35:59.640 in regulated professions

00:36:01.200 and they are terrified

00:36:02.500 to speak.

00:36:03.660 And this is really bad.

00:36:04.740 Like,

00:36:05.080 it's really bad.

00:36:05.940 So,

00:36:06.400 among psychologists,

00:36:07.340 for example,

00:36:08.120 you're basically mandated

00:36:10.500 if a parent

00:36:12.300 brings in an adolescent

00:36:13.620 who's having

00:36:14.480 gender dysphoria

00:36:15.940 trouble

00:36:16.420 real or socially

00:36:18.620 constructed,

00:36:19.680 let's say,

00:36:20.380 you are mandated

00:36:21.340 to affirm their choices.

00:36:23.400 And I can't,

00:36:24.140 I seriously can't think

00:36:25.340 of anything

00:36:25.900 more scandalous

00:36:26.740 than that

00:36:27.240 that's occurred

00:36:28.120 within the psychological

00:36:29.140 community

00:36:29.880 and the medical community

00:36:30.880 in the last hundred years.

00:36:32.180 It's absolutely barbaric,

00:36:34.740 but no one

00:36:35.680 is brave enough,

00:36:37.980 virtually no one's brave enough

00:36:39.120 to buck the tide.

00:36:40.020 And it's not surprising,

00:36:41.020 you know,

00:36:41.240 because the consequences

00:36:42.280 of telling the truth,

00:36:43.640 this means that

00:36:44.360 your psychologists,

00:36:45.120 the ones that are actually,

00:36:47.020 you know,

00:36:48.020 genuinely educated

00:36:48.940 and competent,

00:36:49.600 and the same goes

00:36:50.160 for physicians,

00:36:51.380 they're mandated

00:36:52.080 to lie to you

00:36:52.740 about your children.

00:36:53.940 They're mandated,

00:36:54.720 for example,

00:36:55.180 to swallow the lie

00:36:55.980 that if you don't

00:36:57.020 allow your child

00:36:57.960 to transform themselves

00:36:59.200 surgically

00:36:59.720 into the sex

00:37:00.500 they hypothetically are,

00:37:01.820 that their suicide risk

00:37:02.980 will be elevated,

00:37:03.740 which is a complete

00:37:04.440 bloody lie. 0.85

00:37:05.140 There's not a shred

00:37:05.820 of evidence for that,

00:37:06.760 and there's plenty

00:37:07.560 of evidence for the reverse.

00:37:09.160 So what,

00:37:09.720 let's say you stood up

00:37:10.700 against that

00:37:11.420 and you were reported

00:37:12.900 to your college,

00:37:14.120 what's the consequence

00:37:14.940 are going to be

00:37:15.580 first scandal,

00:37:17.000 second,

00:37:17.520 tremendous expense

00:37:18.580 because if there's

00:37:19.760 a complaint against you,

00:37:21.200 it's basically a legal case

00:37:22.640 and it's very expensive

00:37:23.540 to litigate

00:37:24.120 and it takes forever.

00:37:25.020 They've been chasing me

00:37:25.820 for 10 years,

00:37:27.320 right?

00:37:27.480 It's cost me more than

00:37:28.340 half a million dollars

00:37:29.220 to fight them off so far

00:37:30.520 as ineffectively

00:37:32.220 as I've managed.

00:37:33.780 And so,

00:37:34.200 and then if you lose

00:37:35.800 your license

00:37:36.520 or even if the scandal

00:37:38.300 falls on you,

00:37:39.040 because once there's

00:37:40.480 a decision against you

00:37:41.840 from the college,

00:37:42.420 that's part of the public record

00:37:43.700 and a little bit hard on you

00:37:44.780 if you're trying

00:37:45.360 to advertise your services,

00:37:46.720 let's say.

00:37:47.380 It's not surprising

00:37:48.300 that physicians

00:37:48.920 and psychologists

00:37:49.740 and engineers

00:37:50.560 and social workers

00:37:51.360 and teachers

00:37:51.880 won't say what they think.

00:37:53.860 And then we're in a situation

00:37:54.940 where professionals,

00:37:56.960 the professionals you rely on

00:37:58.360 in a crisis

00:37:58.880 can't say what they think

00:38:00.020 when you need them to.

00:38:01.060 That is not good.

00:38:02.400 That's seriously not good

00:38:03.700 and Canadians are

00:38:04.480 seriously asleep at the wheel.

00:38:07.200 And you know,

00:38:07.600 it's a weird thing

00:38:08.300 because how old are you?

00:38:09.860 37.

00:38:10.560 Okay,

00:38:10.960 so I'm a lot older

00:38:11.900 than you over 30 years.

00:38:13.980 Well,

00:38:14.380 you know,

00:38:14.960 the Canada that I grew up in,

00:38:17.860 all of the institutions

00:38:19.160 were fundamentally

00:38:20.840 trustworthy and trusted.

00:38:23.180 All of them.

00:38:23.980 All of them.

00:38:24.880 The education system,

00:38:26.440 K-12,

00:38:27.320 the higher education system,

00:38:29.200 the court system,

00:38:31.040 the three-party political system.

00:38:32.660 The media.

00:38:33.440 The media,

00:38:34.100 yeah.

00:38:34.560 CBC,

00:38:35.500 like I watched CBC

00:38:36.380 all the time

00:38:36.880 when I was a kid,

00:38:37.500 well,

00:38:37.620 there were only two channels,

00:38:38.660 you know,

00:38:38.900 and so,

00:38:39.600 and by and large,

00:38:40.380 although it had a liberal tilt,

00:38:41.880 I would say,

00:38:43.520 no one presumed

00:38:45.460 that CBC was

00:38:46.580 bending the truth

00:38:48.120 or advocating

00:38:49.320 for the government.

00:38:51.200 Certainly,

00:38:51.740 no one assumed that

00:38:52.540 to the point where

00:38:53.480 they evinced skepticism

00:38:56.180 about the coverage.

00:38:57.500 I mean,

00:38:58.140 we had a,

00:38:58.560 we had a country

00:38:59.280 that functioned

00:39:00.900 extremely well,

00:39:01.980 kind of without

00:39:03.760 that showy

00:39:05.280 entrepreneurial flair

00:39:06.600 that the Americans have,

00:39:07.740 which is really something

00:39:08.640 to admire and emulate.

00:39:11.000 Canada was a much

00:39:12.000 more moderate place,

00:39:13.160 a much more middle-class place,

00:39:14.540 but fundamentally

00:39:15.600 rock solid.

00:39:16.680 And even the debates

00:39:17.720 between the political parties

00:39:18.940 were never,

00:39:20.400 everybody sort of

00:39:21.320 stayed in their lane

00:39:22.220 and we knew

00:39:22.840 where the political parties stood.

00:39:24.440 And I don't know

00:39:25.200 what the hell's happened

00:39:25.900 in the last 15 years,

00:39:26.980 but like that time

00:39:29.560 seems to me to be,

00:39:30.560 it's seriously over.

00:39:32.560 What's happening

00:39:33.160 knows what's going

00:39:33.720 to replace it.

00:39:35.640 Are you tired

00:39:36.420 of feeling sluggish,

00:39:37.280 run down,

00:39:37.700 or just not your best self?

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00:40:26.960 I think what's happened

00:40:30.060 is the institutions

00:40:30.780 have fundamentally

00:40:31.400 failed at their roles.

00:40:33.020 And this is true

00:40:33.660 of every institution

00:40:34.440 you mentioned.

00:40:35.640 And a good case

00:40:37.140 to look at

00:40:37.760 would be

00:40:38.220 the follow-around addiction.

00:40:40.220 And it's something

00:40:41.000 a good segue

00:40:41.740 for us to get into it.

00:40:42.740 is if you look at

00:40:44.400 the United States

00:40:45.360 and Canada,

00:40:45.940 we're uniquely positioned

00:40:47.440 as the epicenter

00:40:49.680 of the worldwide

00:40:51.360 opioid addiction crisis.

00:40:53.960 It really is here.

00:40:55.760 And it's because

00:40:56.240 of the failure

00:40:56.680 of institutions.

00:40:57.280 And you could tell

00:40:57.980 the story all the way

00:40:58.940 through starting

00:41:00.000 with 1995

00:41:01.000 when the FDA

00:41:01.840 in the United States

00:41:02.740 approved,

00:41:04.000 and I think

00:41:05.000 in an insane decision,

00:41:07.340 oxycodone

00:41:08.140 with Big Pharma.

00:41:09.500 And they said

00:41:10.540 that this would be

00:41:11.640 good for public health.

00:41:12.600 They said that there

00:41:13.280 aren't risks of addiction.

00:41:14.760 It's incredibly low.

00:41:16.360 Oxycodone

00:41:16.880 is twice as powerful

00:41:18.280 as heroin,

00:41:19.080 street heroin, right?

00:41:20.040 It's also the case,

00:41:21.080 by the way,

00:41:21.880 and everyone

00:41:22.520 who's listening

00:41:23.140 should know this,

00:41:23.960 that the probability

00:41:25.240 that you can produce

00:41:26.240 a pharmacological compound

00:41:27.660 that's analgesic

00:41:28.620 and not addictive

00:41:29.220 is very low, right?

00:41:30.840 Because the mechanism

00:41:33.480 of action

00:41:34.420 of analgesic medications

00:41:36.020 is the same mechanism

00:41:37.840 that produces

00:41:38.560 drug-related reward.

00:41:40.800 And so it's very difficult

00:41:41.720 to separate those.

00:41:42.780 Now, you get

00:41:43.180 anti-inflammatories

00:41:45.060 can reduce pain

00:41:46.000 by indirect mechanisms,

00:41:47.160 but if you're

00:41:48.000 directly affecting

00:41:49.080 the systems

00:41:49.640 that cause pain

00:41:50.540 psychopharmacologically,

00:41:52.000 you're going to be using

00:41:53.740 compounds that have

00:41:54.560 a high addiction potential.

00:41:56.440 Even cocaine,

00:41:57.560 which isn't generally

00:41:58.400 used as an analgesic,

00:41:59.720 has analgesic properties

00:42:00.980 because of its

00:42:01.920 psychomotor stimulant properties,

00:42:03.300 and it's seriously

00:42:04.020 abuse eliciting

00:42:07.020 and dependency eliciting.

00:42:08.660 So, you know,

00:42:09.480 the pharmaceutical companies

00:42:12.760 were lying

00:42:13.540 with regards

00:42:15.280 to the opiates

00:42:16.140 on the most fundamental

00:42:17.700 biological grounds imaginable.

00:42:19.260 That's right.

00:42:19.520 And it was very well known.

00:42:20.960 I mean,

00:42:21.140 what you're describing

00:42:21.760 is not new science,

00:42:23.440 right?

00:42:23.700 No, no, definitely not.

00:42:24.520 This is century old.

00:42:26.620 Well, yes,

00:42:28.180 the addiction properties

00:42:29.440 for, well,

00:42:30.280 longer than that,

00:42:30.880 even maybe.

00:42:31.800 But the actual pharmacology

00:42:34.060 at the neurological level,

00:42:35.240 that's been pretty well established

00:42:36.980 since, I would say,

00:42:38.240 it's probably 50 years

00:42:39.620 at the molecular level.

00:42:41.200 And so what happened was

00:42:42.260 the reason it went

00:42:43.660 the way it did

00:42:44.060 was not because

00:42:44.920 of new science

00:42:45.660 and not because

00:42:46.240 of evidence

00:42:46.840 that the mass opioid

00:42:48.680 pandemic that we saw

00:42:49.900 was because of marketing

00:42:50.880 fundamentally

00:42:51.680 and large amounts

00:42:53.360 of dollars

00:42:53.940 that were being traded

00:42:55.540 transactionally.

00:42:56.960 And we saw

00:42:57.580 our regulatory bodies,

00:42:59.280 our colleges,

00:43:00.560 or the oversight bodies

00:43:02.720 for physicians.

00:43:03.400 We saw our medical schools.

00:43:06.800 We saw every single institution

00:43:08.380 in the medical world

00:43:09.480 be co-opted by this

00:43:11.060 and so easily as well.

00:43:12.700 Now, we should explain

00:43:13.580 just so everybody knows

00:43:14.660 about these colleges

00:43:15.660 because the terminology

00:43:17.220 is confusing

00:43:18.060 because people typically

00:43:19.200 think of a college

00:43:20.060 as a university.

00:43:21.820 But there are

00:43:22.420 professional colleges

00:43:23.760 and professional colleges

00:43:24.920 are organizations

00:43:26.400 of professionals

00:43:27.460 within a given profession,

00:43:28.880 say engineers

00:43:29.520 or physicians

00:43:30.200 or psychologists,

00:43:31.020 and they're tasked

00:43:32.900 with the responsibility

00:43:34.300 of being self-governing

00:43:35.700 and the self-governing bodies,

00:43:37.960 at least somewhat

00:43:38.860 self-governing

00:43:39.520 and self-regulating.

00:43:41.180 And those bodies

00:43:42.180 are tasked

00:43:42.840 with the regulation

00:43:45.020 of their professionals

00:43:46.740 so that the public

00:43:47.540 is well served.

00:43:48.440 And I would also say

00:43:49.340 no one heard anything

00:43:51.220 about regulatory colleges.

00:43:53.480 That's only become

00:43:54.380 an issue

00:43:54.700 in the last 10 years.

00:43:55.880 They operated

00:43:56.540 fundamentally

00:43:57.660 as administrative boards

00:43:59.220 behind the scenes

00:44:00.080 with no...

00:44:00.940 No politics,

00:44:02.080 no ideology.

00:44:02.360 No, no media coverage.

00:44:03.760 That's right.

00:44:04.180 They basically dealt

00:44:04.820 with professionals

00:44:06.060 who had complaints

00:44:07.080 levied against them,

00:44:08.100 justified or not,

00:44:09.940 by members

00:44:10.580 of the general public

00:44:11.460 and dealt with that

00:44:12.320 in the appropriate

00:44:13.140 administrative manner.

00:44:14.620 That's right.

00:44:14.960 Now they're completely

00:44:15.500 politicized.

00:44:16.720 And that's especially true

00:44:17.800 with the legal regulatory.

00:44:19.620 And they would have

00:44:20.480 standards of practice,

00:44:21.660 say, for example,

00:44:22.440 for a medical professional

00:44:23.480 regulatory body

00:44:24.480 that would say

00:44:24.940 this is the best practice.

00:44:26.600 And if you're not doing that

00:44:28.200 for some reason,

00:44:28.840 there could be

00:44:29.660 some complaint against you

00:44:30.620 and then make sure

00:44:31.200 that the public

00:44:32.280 could know

00:44:33.000 if you were a physician

00:44:34.140 practicing in,

00:44:35.780 say, Fairview, Alberta

00:44:36.800 or Peace River

00:44:37.420 where we're from,

00:44:38.580 then you could trust

00:44:39.660 that person isn't out there

00:44:41.440 some sort of quack.

00:44:42.240 This is someone

00:44:42.640 that we know

00:44:43.300 the government says

00:44:44.720 through this regulatory body

00:44:46.220 has standards

00:44:47.060 that they will meet

00:44:48.100 because we want to make sure

00:44:49.300 people can trust

00:44:50.120 our professionals.

00:44:51.040 And when it's not politicized,

00:44:52.960 that's good, right?

00:44:54.320 Now, the government

00:44:55.460 establishes these colleges

00:44:56.960 through legislation.

00:44:58.460 And so we obviously

00:44:59.740 have a responsibility

00:45:00.540 to say if they're not

00:45:01.500 working the way

00:45:02.240 they ought to

00:45:02.900 to protect the public interest,

00:45:04.300 if instead they're

00:45:04.920 protecting a political ideology,

00:45:06.580 then we need to make sure

00:45:07.900 we intervene,

00:45:08.420 which is the legislation

00:45:09.280 that you mentioned

00:45:10.640 that Premier Daniel Smith

00:45:11.740 is bringing forward.

00:45:12.980 We're going to be debating

00:45:13.780 this session of the legislature.

00:45:15.120 Oh, yeah.

00:45:15.420 Oh, yeah.

00:45:15.820 So that's when it's coming through.

00:45:17.820 And so what's happening,

00:45:19.920 what happened in,

00:45:21.520 you know,

00:45:21.760 the mid-90s

00:45:22.520 and early 2000s

00:45:23.660 was fundamentally

00:45:24.460 a question of institutions

00:45:26.220 that were meant

00:45:26.880 to protect us.

00:45:27.880 The government

00:45:28.540 had established

00:45:29.420 or self-regulatory bodies

00:45:31.560 or medical schools,

00:45:33.080 academia,

00:45:34.000 the research wing

00:45:35.840 of universities,

00:45:37.140 they are there

00:45:38.320 to,

00:45:38.940 in many different functions,

00:45:40.420 to protect us

00:45:41.420 and to guide us

00:45:42.140 and help us.

00:45:43.180 And instead of doing that,

00:45:45.100 as oxycodone

00:45:46.320 became widespread

00:45:47.560 and prescribed

00:45:48.640 over four times

00:45:50.080 the rate that it used to be,

00:45:51.300 if you look at

00:45:52.040 just 2012 alone,

00:45:53.360 the end of this

00:45:54.360 sort of mass

00:45:55.300 prescription time

00:45:56.400 of oxycodone,

00:45:57.480 we saw there was

00:45:58.060 about a quarter billion

00:45:58.880 prescriptions in North America.

00:46:00.380 That's enough for

00:46:00.980 one prescription

00:46:01.900 for every adult, right?

00:46:03.680 So it was incredibly widespread.

00:46:05.920 And the consequence of that

00:46:07.300 was what used to be

00:46:08.660 a market for opioids

00:46:09.740 in L.A. and New York,

00:46:11.660 in Vancouver and Toronto,

00:46:13.440 with organic heroin

00:46:15.440 that maybe came

00:46:16.300 from South Asia,

00:46:17.560 instead now,

00:46:19.520 there was

00:46:20.020 every single little town

00:46:21.180 of Peace River

00:46:21.900 and in Appalachia,

00:46:23.100 Pennsylvania,

00:46:24.080 and everywhere

00:46:24.680 that had a physician

00:46:25.600 that was told

00:46:26.660 that this is safe,

00:46:27.780 that this doesn't have

00:46:28.360 public health consequences,

00:46:29.600 that these are non-addictive,

00:46:31.060 that this is the way

00:46:31.860 in the future

00:46:32.320 to treat pain,

00:46:33.520 especially if you're

00:46:34.400 blue-collar,

00:46:35.360 you got a prescription.

00:46:36.800 Prescription for an opiate

00:46:38.200 that's twice as powerful

00:46:39.180 as heroin.

00:46:39.960 And any sort of defense

00:46:41.480 they had,

00:46:42.260 the idea that

00:46:42.900 there was long-acting,

00:46:43.860 you crush up the pill.

00:46:44.700 Right, that's the issue there.

00:46:46.640 That's, yes, exactly.

00:46:47.740 And so the technology

00:46:48.800 wasn't as sold.

00:46:50.280 And so we should,

00:46:51.080 just so people are clear

00:46:52.360 about that,

00:46:52.920 well, there's two things.

00:46:54.760 Tell everybody

00:46:55.720 the nature of your ministry.

00:46:59.080 You're the minister

00:47:00.000 of mental health

00:47:00.800 and addiction.

00:47:01.240 That's right.

00:47:01.740 And so we're going

00:47:02.160 to delve into that.

00:47:03.080 It was starting

00:47:03.540 with the oxycodone story.

00:47:05.280 And so,

00:47:05.600 and that's why you have

00:47:06.300 specialized knowledge

00:47:07.100 in this domain.

00:47:08.140 And Alberta has

00:47:09.180 a recovery program.

00:47:11.080 What's it called?

00:47:11.700 The Alberta Recovery Model.

00:47:13.000 Alberta Recovery Model,

00:47:14.180 right.

00:47:14.420 And I talked to Jason Nixon,

00:47:16.180 another minister

00:47:16.840 of Smith's cabinet,

00:47:18.500 about this to some degree

00:47:19.880 about a year ago.

00:47:20.860 And so this is a continuation

00:47:21.860 of that discussion.

00:47:22.860 The reason I'm

00:47:23.500 having these discussions,

00:47:25.080 by the way,

00:47:25.560 for everybody

00:47:26.020 who's watching and listening,

00:47:27.140 is because I think

00:47:27.980 that Alberta has a model

00:47:29.460 for the homelessness,

00:47:32.120 drug addiction problem

00:47:33.340 that is economically

00:47:35.340 justifiable and effective

00:47:36.880 and that could be

00:47:37.560 duplicated widely,

00:47:39.060 particularly in North America,

00:47:40.200 and be duplicated effectively.

00:47:42.260 And it contrasts

00:47:43.040 very markedly,

00:47:43.920 let's say,

00:47:44.360 with the NDP's approach

00:47:45.500 to the drug addiction problem

00:47:47.040 in the province

00:47:47.700 to the west of Alberta,

00:47:49.940 right.

00:47:50.160 British Columbia

00:47:50.740 and the socialists,

00:47:52.040 of course,

00:47:52.220 won the election again,

00:47:53.240 although much reduced in power.

00:47:55.380 And so,

00:47:55.660 our British Columbians

00:47:57.120 are going to have

00:47:57.480 to struggle through

00:47:58.320 the same foolishness 0.91

00:47:59.620 that they've been experiencing 0.96

00:48:00.620 for the last eight years

00:48:01.760 for another,

00:48:02.700 well, we'll see.

00:48:03.680 They didn't get

00:48:04.160 much of a majority.

00:48:05.360 Okay,

00:48:05.600 so the Alberta Recovery Model

00:48:07.480 is very promising

00:48:08.700 and I was impressed

00:48:09.960 with Nixon

00:48:10.940 because he,

00:48:12.620 well,

00:48:12.900 he's been in that realm

00:48:14.340 his whole life fundamentally

00:48:15.660 because his parents

00:48:17.040 were deeply involved

00:48:18.760 with helping people

00:48:20.220 out of addiction

00:48:20.920 using extra governmental sources

00:48:23.440 from the time

00:48:24.320 he was a little kid.

00:48:25.540 And so,

00:48:26.040 you know,

00:48:26.300 one of the things

00:48:27.180 that struck me

00:48:27.820 about what Alberta

00:48:28.500 was doing

00:48:29.020 was that

00:48:29.520 you guys

00:48:31.540 are not merely

00:48:32.920 moving deck chairs

00:48:34.880 on the Titanic,

00:48:35.860 right?

00:48:36.080 like you've taken

00:48:36.780 a very sophisticated

00:48:38.840 and multidimensional approach

00:48:40.460 to the redressing

00:48:42.240 of the homeless crisis

00:48:43.560 and the addiction crisis

00:48:44.820 in Alberta,

00:48:46.360 balancing quite nicely,

00:48:48.060 balancing appropriate policing

00:48:49.880 with appropriate rehabilitation.

00:48:53.180 Very difficult thing to do.

00:48:54.560 Now,

00:48:54.820 it's my understanding

00:48:55.820 and correct me

00:48:56.540 if this is wrong,

00:48:57.600 tell me about

00:48:58.300 the tent city situation

00:48:59.700 in Alberta

00:49:00.260 and how that's changed.

00:49:02.460 Right.

00:49:03.060 And so,

00:49:03.680 within Alberta,

00:49:04.620 we've fundamentally decided

00:49:06.040 to take a different tack

00:49:07.240 from what Canada

00:49:08.760 has offered

00:49:09.380 as a policy

00:49:10.080 when it comes to addiction

00:49:11.020 and homelessness

00:49:11.560 for the last,

00:49:12.420 say,

00:49:12.520 20 or 25 years.

00:49:14.600 If you have been to Canada,

00:49:16.500 and it's true

00:49:17.160 in many North American cities,

00:49:18.420 but Canada,

00:49:19.120 as we said off the start,

00:49:20.140 seems to have

00:49:21.340 found a way

00:49:22.340 to aggravate it

00:49:23.260 to make it even worse

00:49:24.400 than it naturally

00:49:25.320 would have gone

00:49:25.880 on its own.

00:49:26.960 Alberta said, 0.87

00:49:27.840 we're taking

00:49:28.180 a different approach

00:49:29.060 because it's getting worse,

00:49:30.860 not better.

00:49:31.420 And so,

00:49:32.340 tent cities

00:49:32.820 are a function

00:49:33.720 of homelessness

00:49:35.220 and addiction

00:49:36.100 and mental health

00:49:38.120 all converging

00:49:39.060 into a population

00:49:40.780 that is vulnerable,

00:49:42.480 that needs supports,

00:49:43.680 and the only thing

00:49:44.800 that the rest of Canada

00:49:45.840 has been doing

00:49:46.320 for decades

00:49:46.920 is effectively

00:49:47.920 facilitating

00:49:49.060 more of that addiction.

00:49:50.360 I went to

00:49:51.100 a correction facility

00:49:52.600 in Alberta,

00:49:53.400 our largest one,

00:49:54.640 and I asked...

00:49:54.920 Went to a...

00:49:55.700 Pardon me?

00:49:56.220 What facility?

00:49:57.080 A corrections facility.

00:49:57.980 A jail.

00:49:58.760 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:49:59.400 And so,

00:50:00.620 that correction facility,

00:50:02.100 I asked the warden,

00:50:03.180 how many people

00:50:04.040 passing through your door

00:50:05.600 end up admitting

00:50:07.360 to a serious addiction?

00:50:10.080 And they said,

00:50:10.960 9 out of 10 indicate

00:50:11.940 they have a serious addiction

00:50:12.820 on their intake form,

00:50:13.760 and 1 out of 10 lie.

00:50:15.060 They believe it is ubiquitous

00:50:16.440 that the population

00:50:17.580 that's going through

00:50:18.480 are struggling

00:50:19.680 with addiction.

00:50:20.540 Now, I'm not saying

00:50:21.300 addiction necessarily

00:50:22.280 linked to crime.

00:50:23.020 I'm saying that

00:50:23.600 people who end up

00:50:24.980 in our corrections facility

00:50:26.060 have lots of problems

00:50:27.680 that preexist the criminality.

00:50:29.400 And if our only plan...

00:50:31.300 Well, and there's

00:50:31.720 some direct association,

00:50:33.180 like alcohol, for example,

00:50:34.980 and almost everybody

00:50:36.160 who has a drug addiction problem

00:50:38.080 also has an alcohol problem.

00:50:39.760 They co-occur very, very tightly.

00:50:41.900 Because if you're going

00:50:43.100 to abuse cocaine,

00:50:44.240 well, you might as well

00:50:44.820 cut it with alcohol.

00:50:45.960 And if you're going

00:50:46.460 to abuse cocaine,

00:50:47.240 you might as well

00:50:47.720 abuse alcohol,

00:50:48.560 and that sort of thing happens.

00:50:49.940 Now, alcohol is notorious.

00:50:51.900 It's a notorious drug.

00:50:53.220 So, it's the only drug

00:50:54.940 we know of

00:50:55.560 that reliably,

00:50:57.160 actually,

00:50:57.660 directly increases aggression.

00:50:59.540 It's implicated in 50%.

00:51:01.600 Half the people

00:51:02.440 who murder are drunk

00:51:03.300 and half the people

00:51:04.040 who are killed are drunk.

00:51:05.660 Right?

00:51:05.860 It's...

00:51:06.380 Without alcohol,

00:51:07.540 there would be

00:51:08.080 almost no domestic violence.

00:51:09.900 Right?

00:51:10.060 Alcohol is very bad.

00:51:11.160 It's a very, very,

00:51:11.980 very, very serious

00:51:13.200 contributor to crime.

00:51:14.160 And then,

00:51:14.900 the problem with

00:51:15.560 the other forms

00:51:16.220 of addiction,

00:51:16.820 of course,

00:51:17.480 is that as you

00:51:18.420 become addicted

00:51:19.000 and fall out of the...

00:51:20.980 out of society

00:51:22.300 and you still need

00:51:23.420 to pay for your drugs,

00:51:24.840 you're going to...

00:51:26.480 There's the temptation

00:51:27.300 to turn to crime

00:51:28.160 to generate the proceeds

00:51:30.340 necessary for you

00:51:31.480 to get your next hit

00:51:33.300 is going to loom large.

00:51:35.800 And, you know,

00:51:36.360 that's catastrophic too

00:51:37.440 because even from

00:51:38.540 the economic perspective,

00:51:39.580 because it's very hard

00:51:41.220 for people to steal anything

00:51:42.440 now that has any value.

00:51:44.260 Right?

00:51:44.500 I mean,

00:51:44.880 you steal a TV

00:51:46.060 from someone's house

00:51:46.900 and you pawn it off.

00:51:47.920 There's no value in it at all.

00:51:49.860 And so,

00:51:50.520 the cost of crime

00:51:51.820 is much,

00:51:52.580 much greater

00:51:53.000 than the benefit

00:51:53.760 to the criminal.

00:51:54.780 And that's getting

00:51:55.400 worse and worse.

00:51:56.400 And so,

00:51:56.660 okay,

00:51:57.000 so there's a massive

00:51:58.120 association

00:51:58.940 between addiction

00:51:59.960 and mental health problems,

00:52:01.520 broadly speaking,

00:52:02.760 and criminality.

00:52:04.380 And,

00:52:04.880 like,

00:52:05.240 active criminality,

00:52:06.200 but also the kind

00:52:06.900 of passive criminality

00:52:08.240 that I think constitutes

00:52:09.560 tent cities,

00:52:10.340 for example.

00:52:10.860 That's the breakdown

00:52:11.520 of social norms,

00:52:12.640 the occupation

00:52:13.340 of public lands,

00:52:14.420 the...

00:52:14.960 the...

00:52:15.760 what?

00:52:16.380 The general decrease

00:52:17.820 in the civility

00:52:20.160 of common life

00:52:21.460 that's associated

00:52:22.320 with widespread despair

00:52:24.580 and catastrophe

00:52:25.300 on the streets,

00:52:26.220 especially in a place

00:52:27.140 like Alberta

00:52:27.700 that's so bloody,

00:52:28.720 bitterly cold.

00:52:30.040 So,

00:52:30.360 you know,

00:52:30.620 how in the world

00:52:31.380 do you live out

00:52:32.000 in the streets

00:52:32.440 through an Alberta winter?

00:52:33.580 You can hardly live

00:52:34.420 inside a house

00:52:35.640 in an Alberta winter.

00:52:36.900 So,

00:52:37.280 okay,

00:52:37.680 so you went

00:52:38.500 to the corrections facility

00:52:39.660 and we want to get back

00:52:41.020 to the oxycodone story.

00:52:42.180 Sure,

00:52:42.480 and so I'll just make

00:52:43.160 this point broadly

00:52:43.800 because you went down

00:52:45.660 asking about the Alberta model

00:52:46.880 and what it is.

00:52:47.700 It's fundamentally

00:52:48.300 is an assumption

00:52:49.180 that we need to

00:52:50.080 address the addiction

00:52:50.780 crisis seriously.

00:52:52.060 To understand why

00:52:53.240 it's been such a problem,

00:52:54.300 we have to look at

00:52:55.040 how oxycodone crisis

00:52:56.220 turned into a second crisis

00:52:57.700 within Canada

00:52:58.400 that was propagated

00:53:00.200 and aggravated

00:53:00.900 by the federal government

00:53:02.160 with their policies.

00:53:03.540 We are fundamentally

00:53:04.260 saying that addiction

00:53:05.320 is a part of the crisis

00:53:07.680 that individuals face

00:53:08.620 and if you try

00:53:09.220 and do housing first,

00:53:10.640 as Minister Nixon

00:53:11.200 made the point,

00:53:11.720 without addressing addiction,

00:53:13.640 right,

00:53:14.120 you're going to end up

00:53:14.700 in a very,

00:53:15.340 very difficult spot,

00:53:16.280 right?

00:53:16.700 You need to say,

00:53:17.720 I mean,

00:53:17.980 the nature of an addiction,

00:53:19.080 if we're talking

00:53:19.420 about an opioid addiction,

00:53:20.720 I mean,

00:53:20.980 many people

00:53:21.700 who are addicted

00:53:22.380 to opioids

00:53:22.800 lose a fifth

00:53:23.500 to a quarter

00:53:24.040 of their body weight

00:53:24.860 because they don't

00:53:25.820 have a desire

00:53:26.820 to eat or drink

00:53:28.120 because the dopamine

00:53:29.680 hit you get

00:53:30.440 is 200% increase

00:53:32.140 from your baseline level

00:53:33.340 when you do an opioid.

00:53:35.140 I mean,

00:53:35.480 imagine if this conversation

00:53:36.640 was the best conversation

00:53:37.760 we'd ever had,

00:53:38.340 the most stimulating ever.

00:53:39.680 That would be 25% increase

00:53:41.400 in your dopamine maybe,

00:53:42.440 off your baseline

00:53:43.080 from what I understand.

00:53:44.260 You're talking about

00:53:44.940 something eight times

00:53:46.100 as compelling.

00:53:46.720 Of course no one's

00:53:48.020 going to want to

00:53:48.460 have a conversation

00:53:49.320 or eat a burger

00:53:50.060 or drink water 0.97

00:53:51.040 or have sex

00:53:51.880 or, you know, 0.56

00:53:52.720 continue to hold down

00:53:54.040 a paying job

00:53:55.580 and be a part of society

00:53:56.900 when you're still

00:53:57.860 in active addiction.

00:53:58.100 That's particularly true

00:53:58.740 if they're isolated,

00:54:00.180 right,

00:54:00.520 and have already

00:54:01.060 fallen out of society

00:54:02.020 to some degree.

00:54:02.880 So the rat literature

00:54:04.100 indicated pretty convincingly

00:54:06.120 that it was actually

00:54:07.240 pretty hard

00:54:07.700 to addict rats

00:54:08.760 that were in their

00:54:09.580 wild habitat

00:54:10.380 to cocaine.

00:54:11.700 But if you isolated

00:54:12.720 them in a cage,

00:54:13.460 you could get them 0.94

00:54:13.980 addicted to cocaine

00:54:14.760 to the point

00:54:15.240 where they would

00:54:15.760 only self-administer

00:54:17.240 cocaine and they

00:54:17.980 wouldn't do anything else.

00:54:19.100 Barely drink,

00:54:20.200 certainly not eat,

00:54:21.160 certainly not be

00:54:21.800 interested in sex.

00:54:23.120 And so if you're

00:54:24.200 dealing with people

00:54:24.880 who are alienated,

00:54:26.180 who aren't integrated

00:54:27.080 into a community

00:54:27.960 that allows them

00:54:28.800 alternative forms

00:54:30.160 of genuine reward,

00:54:32.120 then the dopaminergic

00:54:34.100 chemicals become

00:54:34.940 that much more attractive.

00:54:36.620 And if you want to

00:54:37.520 look at examples of that,

00:54:38.420 just look at

00:54:38.820 Western society

00:54:39.540 that atomizes

00:54:40.440 everyone increasingly.

00:54:41.680 And there are

00:54:41.860 all sorts of benefits

00:54:42.700 to the personal autonomy

00:54:43.660 that we have in society,

00:54:45.000 but increasingly

00:54:45.780 we're more isolated

00:54:46.620 than we've ever been.

00:54:47.800 And COVID was,

00:54:49.080 pardon the expression,

00:54:50.380 that on steroids. 0.99

00:54:51.260 It was so much more so

00:54:53.240 this isolation

00:54:54.020 that happened.

00:54:55.280 And addiction

00:54:55.820 is fundamentally

00:54:56.500 a disease of isolation

00:54:57.560 and the antidote

00:54:58.780 to that is recovery,

00:55:00.260 which is a community

00:55:01.000 relationship again.

00:55:02.040 Right.

00:55:02.500 In some way.

00:55:03.660 Community and purpose.

00:55:05.320 That's right.

00:55:05.800 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:55:06.600 So let's get to

00:55:07.760 that question around...

00:55:09.120 Draw the line

00:55:10.240 between the oxycodone

00:55:11.560 over prescription

00:55:13.200 and the government policies

00:55:15.040 that facilitated

00:55:16.100 the development

00:55:16.640 of the opioid crisis.

00:55:19.120 Now, is that associated

00:55:21.200 with the policies

00:55:22.100 that, say,

00:55:22.700 characterize Vancouver

00:55:23.680 where drugs

00:55:24.740 are distributed...

00:55:25.680 What?

00:55:28.840 Widely and easily.

00:55:30.340 And the most devastating

00:55:31.600 of drugs.

00:55:32.340 That is the understatement

00:55:32.780 of the decade

00:55:33.340 to say widely and easily.

00:55:34.700 So the oxycodone crisis

00:55:36.160 created a North American

00:55:37.380 opioid pandemic.

00:55:39.740 The authority on this

00:55:41.060 is a Stanford Lancet commission

00:55:42.460 written by Dr. Keith Humphreys

00:55:44.400 who is a professor

00:55:46.380 seen to be

00:55:47.160 a universally accepted expert

00:55:49.340 when it comes to

00:55:49.920 the opioid crisis

00:55:50.680 in North America.

00:55:51.440 It's distinctly

00:55:52.100 North American

00:55:52.600 as a crisis.

00:55:53.820 There are aspects of this

00:55:55.000 that we see

00:55:55.440 in other parts of the world

00:55:56.420 but we see

00:55:57.420 the opioid crisis

00:55:58.460 created a market

00:55:59.760 for opioid users

00:56:01.220 that wasn't just

00:56:02.020 that Toronto,

00:56:02.860 Vancouver,

00:56:03.760 LA, New York

00:56:04.800 for that heroin market

00:56:08.420 that would have existed.

00:56:09.180 Instead,

00:56:10.440 everyone that had

00:56:11.300 a prescription

00:56:11.840 i.e.

00:56:12.300 everyone with

00:56:12.880 a pharmacy dispensary

00:56:14.140 and a family physician

00:56:15.060 and anyone who had

00:56:16.080 pain in their life

00:56:17.220 there now was a market

00:56:18.400 for that

00:56:18.820 and we saw

00:56:19.180 a massive explosion.

00:56:20.820 And so one of the

00:56:21.460 axiomatic truths

00:56:22.580 of addiction broadly

00:56:24.260 and it is on full display

00:56:26.200 with the late 90s

00:56:27.640 and early 2000s

00:56:28.600 is if you increase

00:56:29.740 supply to a market

00:56:31.680 and you don't have

00:56:32.760 barriers there

00:56:33.700 then you're going

00:56:34.460 to increase harm.

00:56:35.820 Addiction will come

00:56:36.580 out of that

00:56:37.060 and it's just axiomatic.

00:56:38.480 You can't get around it

00:56:39.500 so if you massively

00:56:40.380 dump high-powered opioids

00:56:42.540 twice as powerful

00:56:43.360 as heroin

00:56:43.900 into every single community

00:56:45.480 and you start

00:56:46.560 with a trusted institution

00:56:47.740 prescribing these

00:56:48.660 your family physician

00:56:49.600 passing them out

00:56:50.880 en masse

00:56:51.540 with huge amounts

00:56:52.860 of diversion

00:56:53.400 which means to say

00:56:54.280 the person who was

00:56:55.460 prescribed the opioid

00:56:56.800 doesn't receive

00:56:57.840 the opioid

00:56:58.260 instead

00:56:58.620 it gets traded

00:56:59.720 or marketed

00:57:00.680 to some other individual

00:57:02.060 you're creating

00:57:02.760 a new addict

00:57:03.500 and the way that

00:57:04.180 the addiction works

00:57:05.060 especially with opioids

00:57:06.340 is it continues

00:57:07.540 to ratchet up.

00:57:08.480 and it escalates

00:57:09.340 and so

00:57:09.940 you might become

00:57:10.760 tolerant

00:57:11.320 after a while

00:57:12.660 of receiving heroin

00:57:13.760 or twice as powerful

00:57:15.100 oxycodone

00:57:15.780 so you take twice

00:57:16.500 as many of those pills

00:57:17.540 and after a time

00:57:18.820 you saw a massive

00:57:19.780 resurgent of the

00:57:20.800 heroin market

00:57:21.560 across all of

00:57:22.840 North America.

00:57:23.060 And is that what

00:57:23.620 opened the door

00:57:24.200 to fentanyl?

00:57:25.320 And so fentanyl

00:57:26.620 is just a much

00:57:27.780 much more powerful

00:57:28.620 version of heroin

00:57:29.440 so if you look at

00:57:32.000 oxycodone

00:57:32.640 which is twice

00:57:33.180 as powerful

00:57:33.640 as heroin

00:57:34.080 thereabouts

00:57:34.720 fentanyl

00:57:35.580 is about 100

00:57:36.240 to 200 times

00:57:36.940 more powerful

00:57:37.400 than that

00:57:38.120 right

00:57:38.360 and so

00:57:39.160 as tolerance

00:57:40.040 continues to escalate

00:57:41.340 in a using

00:57:41.860 population

00:57:42.460 there are very

00:57:43.380 clever chemists

00:57:44.380 in the illicit

00:57:45.280 chemists

00:57:45.680 that are going

00:57:46.200 to find

00:57:46.680 a new

00:57:47.260 high powered

00:57:47.740 opioid

00:57:48.160 that will be

00:57:48.960 able to

00:57:49.220 satiate

00:57:49.660 that desire

00:57:50.360 and so

00:57:51.120 if you are

00:57:51.780 using

00:57:52.260 over a long

00:57:53.300 period of time

00:57:54.160 months and years

00:57:55.220 you no longer

00:57:56.260 can get a high

00:57:57.140 off of that

00:57:57.900 lower powered

00:57:59.880 opioid

00:58:00.380 so you need

00:58:00.960 to be seeking

00:58:01.520 more and more

00:58:02.400 and fentanyl

00:58:03.360 is one of them

00:58:04.160 but there's

00:58:04.660 sous-fentanil

00:58:05.400 and carfentanil

00:58:06.360 and some clever

00:58:07.280 chemists

00:58:07.660 that's going to

00:58:08.020 create something

00:58:08.540 even more damaging

00:58:09.700 afterwards.

00:58:10.840 It's not just

00:58:12.060 that the opioid

00:58:13.120 gives you

00:58:13.920 that dopamine

00:58:15.180 hit and that

00:58:15.900 high that we

00:58:16.380 talked about

00:58:17.000 if that was

00:58:17.840 all it was

00:58:18.480 there would be

00:58:18.900 all sorts of

00:58:19.420 difficulties

00:58:20.060 in managing that

00:58:20.740 because of

00:58:21.100 its addictive

00:58:21.600 properties

00:58:22.220 but the opioid

00:58:23.380 also can access

00:58:24.940 different receptors

00:58:25.640 in the brain

00:58:26.160 as you well know

00:58:26.820 and one of those

00:58:28.420 receptors are what

00:58:30.000 depress your

00:58:31.220 respiration

00:58:31.780 and so

00:58:32.780 if you get a

00:58:33.420 really powerful

00:58:34.180 opioid

00:58:34.800 like say fentanyl

00:58:35.960 that's hundreds

00:58:36.720 of times more

00:58:37.280 powerful than

00:58:37.860 heroin

00:58:38.300 then your

00:58:39.820 breathing will

00:58:40.780 stop to the

00:58:41.520 point where you

00:58:42.060 don't pump blood

00:58:43.120 through your chest

00:58:43.940 anymore

00:58:44.440 and your veins

00:58:45.420 don't deliver

00:58:46.100 that oxygen

00:58:46.700 and to your brain

00:58:48.040 you will have

00:58:48.720 cerebral hypoxia

00:58:49.760 which is akin

00:58:50.700 to drowning

00:58:51.500 in daylight

00:58:52.240 you're suffocating

00:58:53.340 for air in your 0.99

00:58:54.080 brain

00:58:54.400 and that's

00:58:55.180 what an

00:58:55.960 opioid overdose

00:58:56.680 is

00:58:57.200 and so

00:58:58.280 that's running

00:58:59.140 rampant on the

00:58:59.960 west coast

00:59:00.560 and fentanyl

00:59:01.560 is particularly

00:59:02.240 bad at this

00:59:03.120 right

00:59:03.520 and so we

00:59:04.440 had a few

00:59:04.840 factors coming

00:59:05.380 together

00:59:05.660 the failure

00:59:06.300 of the

00:59:06.820 institutions

00:59:07.300 that were

00:59:07.620 meant to

00:59:07.900 protect us

00:59:08.500 the academic

00:59:09.180 institutions

00:59:09.720 that train

00:59:10.120 physicians

00:59:10.560 the colleges

00:59:11.520 that regulate

00:59:12.100 physicians

00:59:12.660 the regulatory

00:59:13.320 bodies

00:59:13.820 the regulatory

00:59:14.600 bodies

00:59:14.960 that regulate

00:59:15.500 the access

00:59:15.960 to drugs

00:59:16.440 themselves

00:59:16.940 and it

00:59:17.540 went unchecked

00:59:18.400 for over a

00:59:18.980 decade

00:59:19.240 and created

00:59:20.080 a mass market

00:59:21.240 and this

00:59:21.940 is like a

00:59:22.360 slow-moving

00:59:22.920 freight train

00:59:23.600 towards our

00:59:24.300 healthcare system

00:59:25.060 and towards

00:59:25.860 your family

00:59:26.600 and your

00:59:27.280 community members

00:59:28.000 that end up

00:59:28.740 hooked on an

00:59:29.560 addiction

00:59:29.900 to an opioid

00:59:30.860 and we know

00:59:31.900 that that

00:59:32.340 addiction

00:59:32.760 will escalate

00:59:33.480 and that

00:59:34.120 addiction

00:59:34.680 run its course

00:59:35.560 has only one

00:59:36.080 of two ends

00:59:36.700 and if someone

00:59:37.420 says otherwise

00:59:38.060 they're lying

00:59:39.100 to you

00:59:39.800 and maybe

00:59:40.240 even to

00:59:40.580 themselves

00:59:41.020 the addiction

00:59:41.900 run its course

00:59:42.580 either ends

00:59:43.600 in pain

00:59:44.180 misery

00:59:44.740 and given

00:59:45.240 enough time 0.79

00:59:45.820 death

00:59:46.160 through an

00:59:46.740 overdose

00:59:47.020 or some

00:59:47.700 other

00:59:48.060 ancillary

00:59:48.540 consequence

00:59:48.980 like not

00:59:49.540 eating

00:59:49.920 or lacerations

00:59:51.000 from living

00:59:51.400 in intensity

00:59:51.900 you name it

00:59:52.760 carnage

00:59:53.580 that happens

00:59:54.160 trauma

00:59:54.600 lives

00:59:55.240 in addiction

00:59:56.360 the alternative

00:59:57.480 to that

00:59:57.960 and it's

00:59:58.480 the only

00:59:58.760 alternative

00:59:59.340 given enough

01:00:00.080 time

01:00:00.440 is treatment

01:00:01.480 recovery

01:00:02.320 from your

01:00:03.380 addiction

01:00:03.700 and that

01:00:04.180 second lease

01:00:04.660 on life

01:00:05.020 to be a

01:00:05.400 community

01:00:05.700 member

01:00:05.960 again

01:00:06.260 to be a

01:00:06.640 brother

01:00:06.880 or a

01:00:07.260 mother

01:00:07.480 one of the

01:00:08.420 reliable

01:00:09.100 findings

01:00:09.580 in the

01:00:09.880 alcohol

01:00:10.620 addiction

01:00:11.260 treatment

01:00:11.640 literature

01:00:12.080 virtually

01:00:13.160 no treatments

01:00:13.800 for alcoholism

01:00:14.580 work

01:00:14.960 like so

01:00:15.780 so

01:00:16.260 but that

01:00:17.620 doesn't mean

01:00:18.060 that people

01:00:18.380 don't recover

01:00:19.020 and one of

01:00:20.280 the primary

01:00:21.120 pathways to

01:00:21.900 recovery

01:00:22.320 and this

01:00:22.580 has been

01:00:22.840 known

01:00:23.080 I would

01:00:23.520 say for

01:00:23.880 seven or

01:00:24.300 eight decades

01:00:24.760 is something

01:00:26.060 approximating

01:00:26.900 religious

01:00:27.260 transformation

01:00:28.000 when we

01:00:29.760 think about

01:00:30.200 wildly

01:00:30.660 successful

01:00:31.160 businesses

01:00:31.660 we often

01:00:32.380 focus on

01:00:32.920 their great

01:00:33.360 products

01:00:33.880 cool branding

01:00:34.600 and brilliant

01:00:35.360 marketing

01:00:35.800 but there's

01:00:36.700 an unsung

01:00:37.340 hero in

01:00:37.880 their success

01:00:38.340 stories

01:00:38.700 the business

01:00:39.460 behind the

01:00:40.080 business

01:00:40.380 that makes

01:00:40.900 selling simple

01:00:41.660 for millions

01:00:42.540 of entrepreneurs

01:00:43.180 that business

01:00:43.960 is Shopify

01:00:44.680 Shopify

01:00:45.540 is home

01:00:46.020 to the

01:00:46.300 number

01:00:46.500 one

01:00:46.740 checkout

01:00:47.040 on the

01:00:47.400 planet

01:00:47.660 and here's

01:00:48.480 the not

01:00:48.780 so secret

01:00:49.340 secret

01:00:49.760 with shop

01:00:50.580 pay

01:00:50.840 they boost

01:00:51.320 conversions

01:00:51.780 up to

01:00:52.140 50%

01:00:52.860 that means

01:00:53.560 fewer

01:00:53.880 abandoned

01:00:54.320 carts

01:00:54.700 and more

01:00:55.160 completed

01:00:55.540 sales

01:00:56.000 our

01:00:56.580 marketing

01:00:56.920 team

01:00:57.240 uses Shopify

01:00:57.860 every day

01:00:58.520 to sell

01:00:58.920 our

01:00:59.140 merchandise

01:00:59.480 and we

01:01:00.160 love how

01:01:00.600 easy it

01:01:01.020 is to

01:01:01.280 add more

01:01:01.680 items

01:01:02.140 ship

01:01:02.560 products

01:01:03.080 and track

01:01:03.580 conversions

01:01:04.040 in today's

01:01:05.160 market

01:01:05.520 growth minded

01:01:06.260 businesses

01:01:06.700 need a

01:01:07.200 commerce

01:01:07.460 solution

01:01:07.820 that's

01:01:08.160 just as

01:01:08.580 flexible

01:01:08.940 and dynamic

01:01:09.520 as they

01:01:09.880 are

01:01:10.120 whether

01:01:10.780 your

01:01:11.000 customers

01:01:11.360 are browsing

01:01:11.900 your website

01:01:12.600 scrolling through

01:01:13.360 social media

01:01:14.000 or wandering

01:01:14.660 into your

01:01:15.160 store

01:01:15.500 Shopify

01:01:16.160 ensures

01:01:16.620 you're

01:01:16.900 ready to

01:01:17.320 sell

01:01:17.620 ready to

01:01:18.440 elevate

01:01:18.680 your

01:01:18.940 business

01:01:19.360 upgrade

01:01:20.100 your

01:01:20.300 business

01:01:20.600 today

01:01:20.980 and get

01:01:21.340 the same

01:01:21.700 checkout

01:01:22.040 daily wire

01:01:22.620 uses

01:01:23.000 sign up

01:01:23.800 for your

01:01:24.060 one dollar

01:01:24.580 per month

01:01:24.940 trial period

01:01:25.600 at

01:01:25.840 shopify.com

01:01:26.860 slash jbp

01:01:27.880 all lowercase

01:01:29.020 go to

01:01:29.680 shopify.com

01:01:30.600 slash jbp

01:01:31.460 today to

01:01:32.020 upgrade your

01:01:32.580 selling

01:01:32.940 that's

01:01:33.620 shopify.com

01:01:34.620 slash jbp

01:01:35.760 this has been

01:01:39.020 well known

01:01:39.480 among researchers

01:01:40.240 who have no

01:01:41.220 stake in the

01:01:42.080 matter from a

01:01:42.580 religious perspective

01:01:43.320 and the

01:01:44.000 there's a

01:01:44.540 reason for

01:01:45.020 that

01:01:45.280 the

01:01:46.320 reason is

01:01:46.900 is that

01:01:47.340 the

01:01:49.280 drugs of

01:01:50.840 abuse

01:01:51.160 like

01:01:51.560 alcohol

01:01:52.340 if you're

01:01:53.020 prone to

01:01:53.560 it

01:01:53.720 have this

01:01:54.400 dopaminergic

01:01:55.040 kick that 1.00

01:01:55.560 you're

01:01:55.820 describing

01:01:56.260 so dopamine

01:01:57.420 kicks in

01:01:58.120 when you

01:01:59.120 see yourself

01:02:00.080 moving towards

01:02:00.840 a valued

01:02:01.240 goal

01:02:01.600 and so

01:02:02.640 that feels

01:02:03.580 good but

01:02:04.080 it also

01:02:04.620 reinforces

01:02:06.400 the development

01:02:07.060 of the neural

01:02:07.660 systems that

01:02:08.500 underlie that

01:02:09.760 movement

01:02:10.240 so if you

01:02:11.480 do something

01:02:12.020 and it

01:02:12.300 works

01:02:12.720 it makes

01:02:13.520 you feel

01:02:13.820 good but

01:02:14.280 the systems

01:02:15.800 that you

01:02:16.160 use to

01:02:16.620 do that

01:02:17.040 grow and

01:02:17.780 dopamine does

01:02:18.420 both of

01:02:18.880 those

01:02:19.140 okay so

01:02:20.180 you experience

01:02:21.220 a dopamine

01:02:21.700 kick when

01:02:22.280 you're moving

01:02:22.640 towards a

01:02:23.120 valued goal

01:02:23.740 and so

01:02:24.440 what that

01:02:24.860 that has

01:02:25.660 some

01:02:25.940 implications

01:02:26.640 one implication

01:02:27.300 is if you

01:02:28.380 have no

01:02:28.780 valued goals

01:02:29.540 you have no

01:02:30.120 access to

01:02:30.860 dopamine

01:02:31.280 kick 0.71

01:02:32.120 right

01:02:33.000 so now

01:02:34.200 if you're

01:02:34.640 drinking or

01:02:35.260 you're

01:02:35.620 addicted

01:02:35.980 you're

01:02:37.080 falsely

01:02:37.860 stimulating

01:02:38.540 these

01:02:38.840 systems

01:02:39.300 now you

01:02:40.020 need that

01:02:40.720 kick 0.71

01:02:41.060 well that's

01:02:41.520 what people

01:02:41.840 live for

01:02:42.320 in many

01:02:42.640 ways

01:02:42.940 it's part

01:02:43.420 of what

01:02:43.740 gives

01:02:44.280 them the

01:02:45.280 sense of

01:02:45.900 purposeful

01:02:46.620 action

01:02:47.140 well the

01:02:48.280 substitution

01:02:48.860 of a new

01:02:49.660 purpose

01:02:50.080 actually

01:02:50.720 reduces the

01:02:52.340 craving

01:02:52.680 pharmacologically

01:02:53.600 because it

01:02:54.280 activates the

01:02:55.580 same systems

01:02:56.500 and so you

01:02:57.220 need

01:02:57.480 you can't

01:02:58.140 just stop

01:02:58.960 using a

01:02:59.500 drug

01:02:59.720 you have

01:03:00.040 to stop

01:03:00.500 using a

01:03:00.920 drug

01:03:01.080 and find

01:03:02.180 something

01:03:02.680 to do

01:03:03.400 that's

01:03:04.140 a replacement

01:03:05.280 or better

01:03:06.120 better would

01:03:06.800 be best

01:03:07.380 okay now

01:03:07.880 yeah and

01:03:08.460 that's exactly

01:03:08.940 right but

01:03:09.360 it's worse

01:03:10.320 than that

01:03:10.660 in a way

01:03:11.060 too because

01:03:11.820 it's not

01:03:12.680 just that it

01:03:13.400 gives you a

01:03:13.900 natural dopamine

01:03:14.640 kick that you 0.65

01:03:15.120 could have

01:03:15.480 it gives you

01:03:16.160 this synthetic

01:03:17.120 heightened

01:03:18.340 which drives

01:03:19.580 an addiction

01:03:20.100 to a way

01:03:21.340 where nobody

01:03:22.360 even in the

01:03:23.220 most fulfilled

01:03:23.900 life that they

01:03:24.660 could have

01:03:25.180 of purpose

01:03:25.720 with a

01:03:26.100 family and

01:03:27.100 children they're

01:03:27.580 raising

01:03:27.820 thinks I

01:03:28.660 don't want to

01:03:29.000 eat today

01:03:29.560 because I

01:03:30.120 want to spend

01:03:30.660 more time

01:03:31.020 with my

01:03:31.260 family

01:03:31.600 right it's

01:03:32.140 not overriding

01:03:33.040 and so that

01:03:33.860 dopamine kick

01:03:35.060 is super

01:03:35.860 problematic

01:03:36.460 and so if

01:03:37.680 you deal

01:03:38.240 with that

01:03:38.900 without replacing

01:03:40.360 it with some

01:03:40.800 purpose and

01:03:41.260 without a

01:03:42.620 sense of

01:03:43.200 how you

01:03:44.340 plan to

01:03:44.820 treat it

01:03:45.460 you will

01:03:46.040 just continue

01:03:46.640 to escalate

01:03:47.340 and the

01:03:48.220 tolerance you

01:03:49.000 get because

01:03:49.260 your body

01:03:49.640 tells you

01:03:50.200 there's too

01:03:50.740 much dopamine

01:03:51.200 going on

01:03:51.820 I need to

01:03:52.440 react so

01:03:53.380 you're going

01:03:53.540 to start

01:03:53.800 shutting down

01:03:54.640 some of

01:03:54.960 those opioid

01:03:55.500 receptors

01:03:56.000 you're not

01:03:56.840 going to be

01:03:57.040 able to get

01:03:57.420 as big of

01:03:58.140 a kick

01:03:58.560 again that's

01:03:59.700 why it's so

01:04:00.240 particularly

01:04:00.680 dangerous when

01:04:01.560 you talk

01:04:01.920 about overdose

01:04:02.500 deaths is

01:04:03.540 that the

01:04:04.300 opioids

01:04:04.940 will force

01:04:06.340 you into

01:04:07.000 a spot

01:04:07.500 where you

01:04:07.940 are risking

01:04:08.520 life every

01:04:09.420 single time

01:04:10.000 we had one

01:04:10.500 individual in

01:04:11.160 Alberta that

01:04:12.120 overdosed 186

01:04:13.760 times that we

01:04:14.940 know of last

01:04:15.620 year now an

01:04:17.100 overdose means

01:04:17.900 again you're

01:04:18.900 you're you're

01:04:20.540 drowning in

01:04:21.160 daylight your

01:04:21.740 brain can't

01:04:22.400 get oxygen

01:04:22.960 you can't

01:04:23.660 breathe right

01:04:24.460 and so we

01:04:26.280 doubt that that

01:04:26.980 is all the

01:04:28.160 times that

01:04:28.600 person's

01:04:28.980 overdosed

01:04:29.280 probably more

01:04:30.000 because every

01:04:30.600 time someone

01:04:31.180 overdoses there's

01:04:32.240 not always a

01:04:32.920 health care

01:04:33.240 worker they're

01:04:33.680 saying can I

01:04:34.160 have your

01:04:34.460 provincial health

01:04:35.080 care number

01:04:35.440 please there

01:04:36.680 are many

01:04:36.980 reversals with

01:04:37.720 naloxone kits

01:04:38.540 that happen all

01:04:40.000 the time so we

01:04:41.020 see individuals

01:04:41.680 like that that

01:04:42.720 continue to

01:04:43.460 escalate that

01:04:44.100 doesn't start

01:04:44.700 overnight that

01:04:45.420 happens because

01:04:46.260 there's been no

01:04:47.120 intervention because

01:04:48.440 the state the

01:04:49.600 system the wider

01:04:51.100 culture just

01:04:52.160 continues to

01:04:52.880 facilitate the

01:04:53.680 addiction and

01:04:54.680 and the

01:04:55.300 addiction run

01:04:56.020 its course has

01:04:56.680 got one two

01:04:57.200 ends you end

01:04:57.600 up in recovery

01:04:58.120 you end up

01:04:58.580 dead and so I 0.96

01:04:59.980 don't want to

01:05:00.400 put my eggs in

01:05:01.160 helping people

01:05:02.340 continue to

01:05:02.900 the path of

01:05:03.580 ending up 0.94

01:05:04.140 dead as a

01:05:05.260 minister I

01:05:05.940 have a moral

01:05:06.520 responsibility to

01:05:07.760 to support and

01:05:09.220 then where I

01:05:09.640 can intervene to

01:05:11.080 get someone into

01:05:12.380 recovery and that

01:05:13.920 means building a

01:05:14.940 very big health

01:05:16.160 care system that

01:05:17.340 is going to help

01:05:18.080 people get into

01:05:19.260 that state of

01:05:19.840 recovery

01:05:20.280 okay so now

01:05:22.440 when I talked to

01:05:23.760 Jason Nixon

01:05:24.580 it was just a

01:05:26.700 couple of months

01:05:27.240 after Alberta had

01:05:28.400 started to take

01:05:29.420 down the tent

01:05:30.020 cities okay so

01:05:31.500 it's been about a

01:05:32.580 year so tell me

01:05:33.940 what the situation

01:05:35.060 is with regards to

01:05:36.900 taking down the

01:05:37.660 tent cities and

01:05:38.740 like is it what's

01:05:40.680 the status of

01:05:41.700 Alberta at the

01:05:42.600 moment Edmonton

01:05:43.500 Calgary Peace

01:05:44.740 River Grand

01:05:45.520 Prairie with

01:05:46.740 regards to

01:05:47.640 homeless encampments

01:05:49.040 and then walk us

01:05:50.560 through what people

01:05:52.920 who are in the

01:05:53.980 throes of addiction

01:05:54.700 would be offered or

01:05:56.480 could expect as a

01:05:57.520 consequence of this

01:05:58.360 model just walk us

01:05:59.320 through it step by

01:06:00.080 I want to get to

01:06:00.960 that but we

01:06:01.420 haven't told the

01:06:01.960 full story that

01:06:02.620 got us to where

01:06:03.200 we are okay and

01:06:04.180 so I want to get

01:06:04.800 that first okay

01:06:05.640 then before we get

01:06:06.600 to the solution we

01:06:07.840 don't fully understand

01:06:08.600 the problem we had

01:06:09.200 one failure so far

01:06:10.400 around colleges and

01:06:11.500 regulatory bodies

01:06:12.300 etc that created the

01:06:13.800 market right and

01:06:15.580 then if we skip

01:06:16.360 forward about a

01:06:17.140 decade after 1995

01:06:18.440 when oxycodone

01:06:19.680 started you look at

01:06:21.700 the policy response in

01:06:23.040 Canada and this is

01:06:24.580 what's beginning to

01:06:25.300 develop as a as a

01:06:26.820 response to the mass

01:06:28.640 induction of uptake of

01:06:30.600 opioids across the

01:06:31.520 entire North American

01:06:32.280 continent and we look

01:06:33.520 at Insight in 2003

01:06:35.060 which is known as a

01:06:36.640 safe injection site or

01:06:37.700 drug consumption site

01:06:38.760 and Vancouver as you

01:06:40.600 described is very

01:06:41.340 progressive west coast

01:06:42.680 left coast and they

01:06:43.860 came up with the idea

01:06:44.540 of saying we're going

01:06:45.100 to create an exemption

01:06:45.880 to the criminal code of

01:06:46.920 Canada and we're going

01:06:48.400 to establish a supervised

01:06:50.480 drug consumption site so

01:06:51.820 HIV AIDS or other

01:06:53.520 different communicable

01:06:54.280 diseases we want to

01:06:55.080 reduce but importantly

01:06:56.360 we want to be there

01:06:57.200 to reverse overdoses

01:06:58.300 that idea didn't come

01:07:00.480 out of nowhere the

01:07:01.600 end of the war on

01:07:02.460 drugs happened in

01:07:03.960 across all of North

01:07:04.800 America and that these 0.66

01:07:05.740 drugs cocaine and

01:07:07.120 then increasingly

01:07:07.760 opioids are too dense

01:07:09.560 and too potent and

01:07:10.740 too valuable and

01:07:11.640 profitable for us to

01:07:12.760 really prohibit on the

01:07:14.400 supply side it was

01:07:15.680 really difficult to

01:07:16.680 stop these drugs from

01:07:17.480 coming into our market

01:07:18.520 and the demand was

01:07:19.640 there it was created

01:07:20.860 right and so we saw

01:07:22.780 resurgence of heroin

01:07:23.860 for example massively

01:07:25.200 across the entire

01:07:26.100 continent and this was

01:07:28.020 paired with the harm

01:07:29.780 reduction model which

01:07:30.600 says if people are

01:07:31.560 going to use we need

01:07:33.040 to make sure we reduce

01:07:34.260 the harmful outcomes

01:07:35.380 that happen so needle

01:07:36.720 exchanges needle

01:07:37.660 cleanups and it became

01:07:39.120 articulated in Canada

01:07:40.180 especially in Vancouver

01:07:41.320 initially with exemptions

01:07:42.940 to the criminal code for

01:07:44.860 certain sites around

01:07:46.220 drug consumption sites and

01:07:48.100 so this idea said if

01:07:49.660 people are using let's

01:07:50.900 help them do it safely and

01:07:53.140 and from that point on

01:07:55.120 the literature was really

01:07:56.580 clear across all of

01:07:57.900 Canada and the the 0.58

01:07:59.540 policies that government

01:08:00.580 set were also very clear

01:08:02.060 across all of Canada we

01:08:03.500 need to facilitate the

01:08:04.740 minimizing of harm the

01:08:06.460 problem is if you take

01:08:07.640 that to its logical

01:08:08.800 conclusion you end up with

01:08:10.340 what we're seeing in

01:08:11.100 Canada now for example

01:08:12.560 funded by the federal

01:08:13.540 government in Ontario and

01:08:15.660 in British Columbia a

01:08:16.540 program called safer

01:08:17.740 supply which I call unsafe

01:08:19.500 supply so we talked about

01:08:20.860 oxycodone before as this

01:08:22.340 mass high-powered

01:08:23.180 pharmaceutical grade

01:08:24.020 opioid well the new

01:08:25.920 drug that's been handed

01:08:27.700 out which were you

01:08:28.920 referenced earlier is

01:08:30.140 called hydromorphone it's

01:08:31.660 five times as powerful as

01:08:33.000 heroin it's an incredibly

01:08:34.540 important pharmaceutical

01:08:35.920 grade opioid and so the

01:08:37.960 policy that they created

01:08:39.820 said the extension of harm

01:08:41.240 reduction was harm

01:08:42.760 reduction to say if the

01:08:44.220 problem is a bunch of

01:08:45.200 overdoses from say fentanyl

01:08:46.900 because it has that really

01:08:48.540 really tragic outcome that

01:08:49.860 fentanyl users are really

01:08:50.960 at risk of overdose and

01:08:52.480 potentially tragically death

01:08:53.920 then we have to stop the

01:08:55.620 toxic drug supply and they

01:08:57.680 framed it in this really

01:08:59.020 really nefarious way and I

01:09:00.880 think this is fundamentally

01:09:01.740 the problem it's an abusive

01:09:02.900 language that frames it in

01:09:05.760 across the entire country and

01:09:07.680 if you watch CBC or national

01:09:09.260 broadcast or any other outlet

01:09:11.380 or you look at academic

01:09:12.520 research you they're trying to

01:09:14.580 have us use really really

01:09:16.340 inorganic inauthentic language

01:09:18.460 to talk about the addiction

01:09:19.520 crisis they will say it's not

01:09:21.340 an addiction crisis the

01:09:22.680 problem instead is a toxic

01:09:24.540 drug supply that they say

01:09:26.660 that if we just didn't have a

01:09:27.780 toxic drug supply I'd be

01:09:28.880 fine so obviously the problem

01:09:30.800 is a toxic drug supply on one

01:09:32.340 side the solution is a safe

01:09:34.760 drug supply on the other so

01:09:36.600 safe supplies where that term

01:09:37.900 comes from so they hand out

01:09:39.560 this pharmaceutical grade pure

01:09:41.780 high-powered five times more

01:09:43.500 powerful than heroin version of

01:09:45.840 an opioid called hydromorphone

01:09:47.220 and in say Vancouver this last

01:09:49.920 year there was approximately

01:09:51.500 54 million eight milligram pills

01:09:55.800 that were passed out country

01:09:57.360 wide we're approximating about a

01:09:59.300 hundred million pills mass

01:10:00.760 distributed this is half of them

01:10:02.860 were distributed in this in

01:10:04.580 Vancouver yeah there are many

01:10:06.720 different sites in fact any

01:10:08.200 pharmacy can distribute them

01:10:09.460 because you get a prescription

01:10:10.540 from it and the idea is it's

01:10:12.220 unwitnessed high-powered

01:10:13.960 pharmaceutical-grade opioids

01:10:15.900 in an attempt to say if you're

01:10:17.600 using fentanyl we'd rather have

01:10:19.360 you use the the safe supply well

01:10:22.660 the problem is as you well know

01:10:23.840 a fentanyl is a hundred times

01:10:25.160 more powerful than the

01:10:27.100 hydromorphone the high you get

01:10:28.860 from fentanyl is the sun compared

01:10:31.640 to a candle with a hydromorphone

01:10:33.740 it's nowhere near powerful enough it

01:10:36.260 can barely even deal with withdrawal

01:10:37.640 symptoms and so instead of

01:10:39.740 displacing the fentanyl use what

01:10:41.840 you've done is you've given a

01:10:43.320 whole bunch of individuals who

01:10:45.020 are an active opioid addiction

01:10:46.640 who have such a drive to continue

01:10:48.540 seeking that dopamine kick that

01:10:51.080 they will take the high power

01:10:52.660 grade safe supply so-called and

01:10:55.440 trade it to an illicit drug dealer

01:10:57.840 the drug cartels and say I still

01:10:59.600 want my fentanyl now the drug

01:11:01.300 cartels have tens or hundreds of

01:11:04.140 millions of high power grade opioids

01:11:06.940 that they can repurpose and sell

01:11:08.760 themselves it used to be that

01:11:10.240 hydromorphone before the safe

01:11:11.760 supply program in 2000 in 2020 that

01:11:15.800 used to be approximately 15 to 20

01:11:17.600 dollars a pill if you go to

01:11:19.380 downtown east hastings now the

01:11:21.160 latest media reports say that's

01:11:22.560 about one dollar a pill so you can

01:11:24.880 see what it's done flooding the

01:11:26.620 market with high power grade opioids

01:11:28.260 the tragedy is is that the political

01:11:31.420 activists on the progressive left and

01:11:34.200 the academics who are trying to

01:11:36.560 ratchet this up they will admit that

01:11:39.000 the the opioid crisis began with

01:11:41.020 oxycodone with mass supply

01:11:43.400 unwitnessed and and diverted access

01:11:47.000 to tens of millions and hundreds of

01:11:49.220 millions of pills across North

01:11:51.120 America for a decade and that created 0.79

01:11:53.300 a whole bunch of new users that as a

01:11:55.880 slow freight train as soon as you start

01:11:57.360 an opioid unless you get into

01:11:59.180 recovery it continues down this tragic

01:12:01.840 end towards death and so what's

01:12:04.780 happened again they've created those

01:12:06.360 same circumstances but instead of it

01:12:08.960 being unwitting physicians who are

01:12:11.340 told by the regulatory officers and

01:12:14.200 told by the academics that this is

01:12:16.420 going to be safe it's now the

01:12:17.880 government funding it with tax

01:12:19.440 dollars pushing it into communities

01:12:21.120 with mass diversion of high-powered

01:12:22.940 opioids and so we've seen the movie

01:12:25.220 before and we're witnessing it again

01:12:27.220 and we've had the RCMP the Canadian

01:12:29.480 police force have drug seizures of

01:12:32.820 tens of thousands of pills from safe

01:12:35.840 supply unsafe supply and that they that

01:12:38.580 the drug cartels plan on repurposing

01:12:40.640 for resale in British Columbia and in

01:12:43.640 other neighboring provinces which

01:12:45.240 includes Alberta and so we now have

01:12:47.380 this sort of aggravation of a

01:12:49.600 devastating problem they've poured fuel

01:12:52.080 on a dumpster fire in a way that would

01:12:54.040 have been difficult to have done

01:12:55.320 intentionally much much worse it is

01:12:57.780 probably one of the worst things you

01:12:59.040 could do because the axiomatic rule

01:13:00.800 that we know from the Stanford Lancet

01:13:02.640 Commission and from research worldwide

01:13:05.380 around addiction is if you increase

01:13:07.020 supply without barriers and you have

01:13:09.880 mass diversion of high-powered high-grade

01:13:12.260 pharmaceutical opioids in your

01:13:14.380 community that it will cause more harm

01:13:16.980 more addiction and so that is a failure

01:13:19.900 now of not just the regulatory bodies

01:13:22.520 but of the government the elected

01:13:24.080 officials themselves in the government

01:13:26.160 in Ottawa the federal government under

01:13:28.040 Trudeau liberals and the BC NDP amongst

01:13:30.800 others that are making it much much

01:13:33.000 worse and it's demonstrably true if you

01:13:35.360 leave Canada there's not a country in

01:13:37.700 the world that thinks that this is a good

01:13:39.460 idea and if you look at the research

01:13:41.300 whether you're talking to Harvard as I

01:13:42.860 did last month or Connecticut where I

01:13:45.020 went to talk to Yale or you look at

01:13:46.800 Stanford and the work being done by

01:13:49.180 Keith Humphreys or a number of others

01:13:51.920 internationally this is very well known

01:13:54.300 and so this entire set of policies of

01:13:57.220 harm reduction started off with the best

01:13:59.440 of intentions but in the end instead of

01:14:01.960 it being harm reduction it's become harm

01:14:03.600 production when it gets to unsafe supply

01:14:05.760 when it gets to an expansion of drug

01:14:08.000 consumption sites on every street corner

01:14:09.920 if you look at this it's a uniquely

01:14:11.880 Canadian policy setting and so Canada has

01:14:15.820 more drug consumption sites than the rest

01:14:17.760 of the world combined and it is uniquely

01:14:21.200 Canadian it's been on offer across the

01:14:23.520 world California has looked at this and

01:14:25.620 it's implemented and reversed it is not

01:14:28.220 something that you see in Europe

01:14:29.580 widespread and if you do it's places

01:14:31.140 like Switzerland which is witnessed and

01:14:32.820 very very different from what we see in

01:14:35.700 Canada and so Canada was in desperate

01:14:38.340 need of an alternate solution because the

01:14:40.840 policy on offer was an utter disaster and

01:14:42.900 getting worse and worse and worse and it

01:14:44.720 was getting worse in large part because of

01:14:47.220 the policies the government was enacting to

01:14:49.040 try and fix it and if you look at the

01:14:51.360 the safe supply the so-called safe supply

01:14:53.400 policies now BC Henry the chief medical

01:14:56.160 officer of health of COVID fame in BC is

01:14:59.780 pushing this unsafe supply and one of her

01:15:02.520 last reports one of the most devoted

01:15:04.440 ideologues in Canada it is really quite a

01:15:07.280 piece it is surreal because her one of

01:15:09.780 her last reports has finally admitted and

01:15:12.340 despite the fact that it was abundantly

01:15:14.380 clear from the very start that diversion is

01:15:17.180 and would be commonplace yeah of course it

01:15:19.980 we're talking about high-powered opioids

01:15:22.140 unwitnessed given to those in active

01:15:24.420 addiction right there was going to be

01:15:26.140 mass diversion and therefore many new

01:15:28.240 individuals beginning onto this tragic

01:15:30.980 opioid addiction her solution is well we

01:15:33.900 need more powerful opioids because no one

01:15:35.620 wants a hydromorphone so her last report

01:15:37.820 has that I'm not kidding it is suggesting

01:15:40.280 that we start handing out fentanyl well

01:15:42.440 the whole premise of this harebrained

01:15:44.480 scheme was was to displace fentanyl use so

01:15:47.560 whether she's going to hand out safe

01:15:49.720 fentanyl well and none of it's safe there

01:15:51.700 aren't safe opioids recreational use I

01:15:54.040 mean the science is clear on this you

01:15:55.660 could say this as a practitioner in the

01:15:58.160 field that high-powered opioids

01:15:59.580 recreationally are dangerous to you

01:16:01.400 always at any time a substance becomes

01:16:04.020 addictive it's dangerous to you of course

01:16:06.220 it is addiction is a life-threatening

01:16:08.480 disease and it needs treatment and so it's

01:16:11.260 now gotten to the point where it does not

01:16:13.120 matter whether it's a drug cartel or 0.98

01:16:15.280 justin trudeau whether it is the black

01:16:17.360 market or bonnie henry the chief medical

01:16:19.400 officer of health in british columbia

01:16:21.060 that is handing out the drugs physiologically

01:16:24.380 it has the same effect on you it will have

01:16:26.700 the same catastrophic carnage in your

01:16:28.760 life and it will destroy your community in

01:16:30.840 the same way and alberta in that setting

01:16:33.600 is now starting to address the addiction

01:16:35.840 crisis okay so I think you should take us

01:16:38.360 through the alternative model in some

01:16:40.060 detail so that people who are listening

01:16:42.400 who are interested in this topically or on

01:16:44.480 the policy side have some sense of

01:16:46.440 exactly how to do this and so do we start

01:16:49.320 with the story of the tent cities and and

01:16:51.460 what you guys have been doing to to help

01:16:53.700 the people who are who have found

01:16:55.700 themselves in that position or where's a

01:16:57.960 good entry point I mean the place to start

01:17:00.420 is an addiction anthropology it's assuming

01:17:03.040 the nature of addiction and if you get that

01:17:05.020 right or you get that wrong your policies

01:17:07.100 will either be helpful when executed well or

01:17:10.100 complete and utter disaster and so the

01:17:12.260 addiction anthropology of the radical side

01:17:15.480 of this the radical activist says that it's

01:17:18.200 not an addiction crisis at all the

01:17:19.940 anthropology is it's simply a problem of an

01:17:22.720 unsafe supply and we can facilitate

01:17:24.940 addiction indefinitely which is why ever

01:17:27.800 increasing drug consumption sites in every

01:17:29.720 street corner is a solution along with drug

01:17:32.480 unsafe supply being handed out by the

01:17:35.100 government at taxpayer expense because

01:17:37.180 addiction isn't really the problem in their

01:17:39.460 mind they frame it completely inauthentically

01:17:42.120 and cynically as nothing but a toxic drug

01:17:45.540 supply problem I do not care whether

01:17:47.920 someone is addicted to an opioid or

01:17:49.700 pornography it does not matter to me whether

01:17:51.760 their crisis is something that's generated

01:17:53.800 from homelessness and a mental health issue

01:17:56.080 or if it is somebody working a nine-to-five

01:17:58.500 that got a prescribed opioid because of a

01:18:00.860 blue-collar job worksite injury I want to be

01:18:03.720 able to meet them where they're at and get

01:18:05.500 them health care ostensibly and this is a

01:18:08.340 bold statement in Canada ostensibly health

01:18:11.100 care should be about healing people and

01:18:12.780 getting them healthy that is unfortunately

01:18:14.680 in my neck of the woods when it comes to

01:18:17.040 mental health and addiction not always been

01:18:19.840 the first hack of the experts in the field

01:18:22.900 and that's a policy failure and an

01:18:24.860 institutional failure of the academics and

01:18:27.360 so the nature of addiction is that it is a

01:18:30.240 disease that is recoverable and that's why

01:18:33.600 the Alberta recovery model is the heart of

01:18:35.360 what we're talking about and so as we see the

01:18:37.900 factors in society of of individual autonomy

01:18:41.200 continuing as we move forward in the 21st

01:18:43.520 century as we saw tragedies like COVID isolate

01:18:46.220 people even further it's become abundantly clear

01:18:49.020 that unless you bring some sort of antidote to

01:18:51.320 that purpose in life a sense of community

01:18:53.620 relationship built again you will continue to

01:18:56.320 see addiction crises getting worse especially

01:18:58.860 when really addictive substances are handed up by

01:19:01.760 the government on mass and you can look at examples

01:19:04.260 in British Columbia where you saw 14 year old

01:19:06.600 underage girl die because she got addicted to 1.00

01:19:09.260 unsafe supply you can see that the BC health

01:19:11.920 authority for a 12 year old who recently passed away

01:19:16.020 in British Columbia was given drug paraphernalia so

01:19:19.560 that she could continue to use that was the state

01:19:22.000 response to the addiction of minors and and Alberta

01:19:25.460 has said instead the state response is addiction is

01:19:28.760 rampant it's widespread and it's going to continue to be

01:19:31.540 unless we give people an off-ramp out of addiction

01:19:34.260 and so whether we're talking about individuals who have

01:19:37.580 zero recovery capital people who are living

01:19:39.880 intermittently homeless maybe they're from a neck of

01:19:42.220 the woods up northwestern Alberta they might have an

01:19:44.560 indigenous background and they are maybe suffering from

01:19:48.220 mental health crisis maybe psychosis brought on by the 0.89

01:19:50.600 drug use or pre-exists it maybe they're disposed to an

01:19:54.000 addiction already those individuals have next to no

01:19:57.700 recovery capital they're not holding on a job they don't

01:19:59.940 have family they've lost almost all connection to

01:20:02.260 everyone else right there needs to be an intervention in

01:20:04.920 those individuals lives and interventions come in all

01:20:07.960 shapes and sizes whether you're talking about a run-in with

01:20:10.900 a justice system or you talk about a health care crisis

01:20:14.060 they run into there's going to be an intervention of one

01:20:16.300 form or another and families I mean if you look at for

01:20:19.600 example the most success successive addiction treatment

01:20:22.380 programs the literature shows it's industries like the

01:20:25.560 airline industry that say if you are caught trying to fly a

01:20:29.440 plane high or drunk or using of some some sort of mind

01:20:34.080 altering substance then the risk of your license being revoked

01:20:37.280 is incredibly high you have a mandatory treatment you must do

01:20:40.140 afterwards at risk of being rejected from that employer and

01:20:43.760 from the industry and so an intervention can come in that

01:20:47.240 form for some people with more recovery capital people who

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01:22:20.820 the state needs to be there to support with the broader society individuals that don't have that

01:22:29.100 ability that institution maybe that workplace environment to get them into the opportunity

01:22:34.620 to recover as well so you don't hold any kind of hope a snowball chance in hell of trying to help

01:22:41.000 people through their crisis if you don't address that fundamental um heart of a problem which is

01:22:47.280 some sort of trauma some sort of issue driving them to addiction and so most of the addiction

01:22:52.540 treatment we do after medical detox it's one disease of addiction right and it doesn't matter

01:22:58.460 whether it's a process addiction like you know eye gaming for example or it's an opioid addiction

01:23:03.540 when you get through that medical detoxification so much of its social cycle and how is that

01:23:08.240 undertaken how is the medical detoxification undertaken so if you're if you're taking

01:23:12.420 people off the street for example if they're homeless what's the first and and addicted what's

01:23:17.280 the first step in the process the first step is building a network of detox centers uh and

01:23:24.140 stabilization across the province so since we came into power in 2019 we've increased approximately

01:23:29.360 50 percent of our treatment capacity that's about 10 000 spaces per annum that we have in alberta

01:23:35.200 per annum per annum this is distributed in the major urban centers it would be across the entire

01:23:39.540 province and the majority of those are detox spaces because they're short episodes of stay

01:23:43.640 detox is just the first step to moving towards that so how long does that typically last it could be

01:23:49.640 a week perhaps less sometimes two weeks when you're talking medically supervised yeah medically

01:23:55.580 supervised uh in alberta we have a license regime for this uh and so if it's talking about alcohol

01:24:01.420 or benzos that is a much much more um precarious situation there could be all sorts of really

01:24:07.600 negative health outcomes if it's not done with appropriate medical supervision uh but that could

01:24:12.300 last say a couple of a couple of days to to two weeks once that happens we're building a network we

01:24:17.680 have now funded mass amounts of not-for-profits community-based treatment centers of all different

01:24:23.660 varieties many of them are indigenous some are faith-based some are not we have no particular

01:24:29.120 predilection towards what that looks like beyond being about recovery and about trying to get

01:24:34.620 people to help a variety of different approaches we're allowing lots of different providers to come

01:24:38.980 into the space and how do you evaluate the consequences so we have my recovery plan uh which

01:24:44.180 is a metric we're using to talk about someone's recovery capital so we're seeing um it a lot of it is

01:24:49.520 is subjective analysis of where are you at now where do you want to be uh we have hard metrics as

01:24:54.840 well that go into that analysis and the idea is that as we build out this recovery continuum

01:24:59.440 all along the way right from the very first time you get into detox all the way to a year later

01:25:04.760 when you look at the end of treatment in your post-recovery housing integrating the community

01:25:09.200 are you seeing recovery capital continue because right now tragically the only metric really used

01:25:14.840 across canada i'd say probably across all of north america is overdose deaths which obviously i want

01:25:20.840 to see as few as possible that's why i'm about the compassionate option of giving everyone a chance

01:25:25.900 at recovery but before that's a latent indicator you're talking about overdose reversals and overdose

01:25:30.860 deaths i mean i want to be able to see before someone gets there how are we doing are they steering in

01:25:35.840 the right direction so do you you look at so your your indicators you talk about let's let's delve into

01:25:40.660 the issue of recovery capital a bit so you know you mentioned that people are homeless family-less

01:25:46.000 with no economic ties and no friends okay so they're not they have no integration whatsoever

01:25:51.200 into the community at any level so part of what recovery capitals sounds like in in your formulation

01:25:58.680 is assessment of what their embeddedness in the social structure yeah that's very right it's

01:26:04.760 their embeddedness in the social structure it's relationships and connections to outside it's a sense

01:26:08.620 of purpose in their life and and to a degree an achievement of that in their life right right and so

01:26:13.500 and and you want to be able to measure that through subjective and objective measurements as much

01:26:17.040 as you can and and much of the treatment when it comes to addiction as i mentioned it is after that

01:26:23.060 medical detox it is social it's psycho it is relational and so it it's a really important that we're seeing

01:26:30.120 our people head in the right direction before they end up in an emergency room and on death's door

01:26:35.380 with an overdose and cerebral hypoxia where they are drowning in daylight that is a horrible way for a

01:26:41.260 policymaker to start looking just to that metric i need to be considering that as an end state of

01:26:46.880 making sure we don't end there right but also way before that and i'm not even talking about you know

01:26:51.720 early intervention prevention i'm talking about those in addiction can we steer their recovery capital

01:26:57.300 to a positive earlier so how are people signing up so to speak i mean if i remember correctly when i

01:27:04.300 talked to mr nixon um some of those tent encampments were actually being dismantled by the government

01:27:11.380 and people were being bused with their family with their dog to treatment center multi-dimensional

01:27:17.740 treatment center to a navigation center yeah and so this navigation center was a hub and from there

01:27:22.800 you could get a number of different supports i mean if maybe your id list you need an id um but also

01:27:28.080 if you were someone interested in detox then we are there to sort of intervene and say let's help you

01:27:33.180 get to that space it can be difficult to manage they don't know how right and the window that

01:27:38.400 someone says look because of whatever circumstance maybe it's the the dismantling of the tent that

01:27:43.560 they were living in tent is too charitable i mean these are open drug sites with drug cartels

01:27:49.000 yeah right extorting individuals we shouldn't be talking about tent it's it's not like going

01:27:53.120 camping on the weekend they're gang encampments yeah yeah 100 right and so run by brutal people

01:27:58.900 with threats of rape and we've had instances of individuals being burnt in them um and tragically

01:28:05.520 sometimes even even death happens through this with extortion of paying taxes to the these drug 0.57

01:28:10.520 laws lawless encampments run by thugs yes with minus 40 degrees celsius right in the middle of winter

01:28:17.540 yeah yeah yeah and so uh so what happens is they get to this navigation center it's meant to reroute

01:28:22.980 them and perhaps and we've had a number of individual individuals that say i want to get treatment

01:28:27.280 now yeah and the first step to that is going to one of those 10 000 spaces we created much of those

01:28:31.980 are going to be detox from there we're going to be connecting them to a network of recovery communities

01:28:37.040 and therapeutic living communities across the province we even have inside our provincial

01:28:41.580 correction facilities or prisons we have units that are dedicated to those who voluntarily want to

01:28:46.620 take on recovery as an opportunity and you go to these places and you have i will i've never been

01:28:51.860 more emotionally touched in my life what the hard work these young men are taking to say

01:28:55.800 i could be looking at porn and getting high in the rest of the facility but i've decided instead i

01:29:00.740 want to re-knit my family when i get out i have an estranged family member i have children i want to

01:29:05.540 be able to see i know between my crime and my addiction this is going to be a disaster and it's

01:29:10.160 just going to continue on and they voluntarily say i want into this therapeutic living unit and we

01:29:14.880 have them in red deer we have them uh and these are in the prisons they're in the prisons and we have

01:29:20.020 for lack for better expression a captive audience and we option we give that opportunity for

01:29:24.960 individuals to say i want to start working on my addiction and into recovery how many people in

01:29:30.340 that um well we have about three or three open right now uh and there's anywhere from 11 in some

01:29:36.680 other to 20 in others and and so and that's an expanding program in principle we're continuing to

01:29:41.940 expand across the entire system uh the idea is that across the whole continuum i want to give

01:29:47.020 everyone an opportunity at recovery because the alternative to recovery is unconscionable and there's a

01:29:52.000 moral imperative we have this isn't just dollars and cents in economics it's not simply a public

01:29:56.860 safety question it is because canadians and albertans deserve not to have to you know cross in

01:30:02.480 front of the gentleman fencing with the wind with a used syringe speedballing methamphetamine

01:30:06.640 and fentanyl instead they should be able to know that going into the main street shopping center or the

01:30:12.220 recreation center for swimming lessons for little jimmy or sue should be absolutely a safe thing to do 0.98

01:30:18.220 but beyond that as well parks as well absolutely beyond that i mean informed by my principle as a

01:30:25.260 canadian as an albertan and i'd say as a conservative i believe in the dignity of every single life and

01:30:30.460 that's inalienable and cannot be divorced from someone no matter what actions they've taken and it's

01:30:35.880 society's job to help that and one function of that in government is to say let's build this capacity

01:30:41.240 so we're building 11 long-term high quality free access drug and addiction recovery treatment centers

01:30:49.540 for those who are in active addiction who have gone through detox they start a very long phase of

01:30:55.560 addiction anywhere from months to up to one year and the data shows really clearly that if you can get

01:31:01.560 the more time you have in sobriety and where you have say opioid agonist therapy which i'd be happy to

01:31:07.540 talk more about the innovative program we have there which is help for those who have addiction

01:31:11.920 medically so that they can have reprieve from that desire to continue seeking what are you using

01:31:17.400 we're using well there's methadone but increasingly more we're using sublocate sublocate is a

01:31:23.380 buprenorphine buprenorphine product it's an injectable subcutaneous and it gives you 30 days of slow

01:31:29.520 dispense all the way through you don't need to show up at the dispensary daily it continues 30 days

01:31:34.540 because addictive potential for it uh is incredibly low almost non-existent you cannot get high on it

01:31:40.320 most oh oh okay and it's most it's mostly a craving reduction so it reduces cravings but it also

01:31:47.660 protects because the affinity for your in the opioid receptors is higher for the buprenorphine than it is

01:31:52.340 for the for the opioid so it's a blocker too so it's a blocker so you cannot continue overdose is

01:31:56.760 incredibly hard um when you're when you're on this and for many individuals 30 days 30 days oh yeah

01:32:02.760 that's i mean protection continues even past that but 30 days i think is what the label um requires

01:32:07.480 and so the the value of that is it gives them a breath of fresh air it allows those who have this

01:32:12.760 physiological pull to continue seeking the addiction to say not only do i have reprieve from the from the

01:32:18.680 withdrawal symptoms not only do i have a reprieve from the desire to continue seeking the opioid if i

01:32:23.520 try i can't even get high i'm going to give this a good shot and so when you look at opioid agonist

01:32:28.820 therapy and our data that we have at the canadian center recovery excellence surrounding good outcomes

01:32:34.180 with with uh sublocate is incredibly good we're going to be publishing on it partnering with

01:32:38.860 institutions to do that but when you pair that opioid agonist treatment that medical treatment

01:32:44.060 along with social psychotherapy it's incredibly good for outcomes we see it like they just come

01:32:49.560 together in this synergy that allows much better outcomes and so if we support individuals

01:32:54.880 in detox and we get them onto the virtual opioid dependency program to give them a breath of fresh

01:33:00.320 air with that medical treatment and then we get them into one of our long-term recovery centers and

01:33:04.920 then we support them through minister nixon in long-term recovery housing you can get to 24 months

01:33:10.180 you see the rate of long-term recovery in the data is incredibly high by comparison you get to that

01:33:15.680 two-year mark and you see long-term recovery is much much much more likely and so a lot of likely

01:33:21.240 what kind of what kind of what are you looking at now and so look we should preface this by saying

01:33:25.460 that um for most addictive treatment processes the risk of relapse is overwhelming people can go

01:33:34.660 through detoxification they can go through withdrawal they can even stay drug-free if they're away from

01:33:40.920 the normative structures of their community but as soon as you put them back in their community they

01:33:44.620 tend to relapse yeah right and so so the reason i'm letting everybody know that is because i want to

01:33:50.800 preface your description of the statistics with with what would the observation that um this is a very

01:33:56.760 difficult thing to do the probability of failure is extremely high and so what what kind of success

01:34:02.640 are you having so our program is relatively new we need to make a distinction between a single

01:34:08.060 instance of recidivism versus long-term recovery right yeah and so there could be instances most people

01:34:14.220 who live into long-term recovery will have multiple instances of recidivism before they really end

01:34:20.160 up in that long-term um period so uh over i mean data can show and there's no example that has the

01:34:27.100 full continuum of care that alberta is building out which is why our data collection and long-term

01:34:32.620 longitudinal studies along with the canadian center recovery excellence is going to be so important

01:34:36.740 to prove this out yeah but i mean some data shows over 50 percent if you look at a different instance you

01:34:42.920 look at um maybe the original therapeutic living community in san patrano in italy i believe the data

01:34:50.060 they showed me when i spoke to them from this study from the university of bologna shows long-term

01:34:55.900 recovery rates are at over 72 percent last time they studied that's a three-year stay um in a very

01:35:03.180 long-term uh and very community-oriented living um recovery community in italy so really good data when

01:35:10.960 you have long periods of treatment uh we haven't really seen this in north america to that degree yet

01:35:16.780 we're really the idea of therapeutic living communities is coming back um in the literature

01:35:21.380 as one of the most exciting opportunities to build recovery into an addiction treatment policy okay so

01:35:27.160 let's let's close this then with a discussion of um pitfalls you know because one of the things

01:35:33.820 that's rattling around in the back of my head is um how do you reconcile this relatively

01:35:40.940 interventionist strategy let's say with the minimalist approach to government intervention that

01:35:48.020 often characterizes conservatism right and so you know you can see two you can see a philosophical

01:35:53.120 conundrum there but then you can also see a practical conundrum because a conservative skeptic

01:35:58.080 might say well what you're implementing is another bureaucratic growth community that's going to

01:36:04.220 expand at the rate of 10 percent a year indefinitely with you know with dubious outcome like it's just

01:36:10.140 so so tell me how you reconcile that philosophically and then tell me what what you think you guys have

01:36:17.200 done to what would you say protect protect against the pitfalls that might that might accrue as a

01:36:23.740 consequence of building another adjunct to the health care system right so uh the health care system

01:36:29.480 fundamentally the entire premise of of peace order and good governance comes from the idea

01:36:34.860 that each of us have dignity unto itself conservatism i would say from my mind is not a form of

01:36:41.460 libertarianism um conservatism is fundamentally an idea that people have intrinsic dignity uh that we

01:36:47.940 should labor towards the common good and so uh one of the lies that we've been told in addiction

01:36:52.980 across north america and it's really true when you look at this sort of radical activist claim

01:36:58.640 on the progressive left is that canadians have a choice you can either be compassionate towards

01:37:04.480 those in addiction or have safe communities right and canadians as you said are level-minded reasonable

01:37:10.920 people that want to trust the institutions and want to trust the authorities uh it's a part of the

01:37:15.840 the heritage that we grew out of as a part of uh colony within the british empire the institutions

01:37:21.800 we've built have largely worked up to now of course we want to to do that and that is the lie that is the

01:37:27.580 false dichotomy that's there in fact caring for those who are in addiction and being compassionate

01:37:33.680 towards them and having safe communities are one in the same because there's nothing compassionate

01:37:38.260 about having the individual who is not in any moral way a free agent choosing to drink water or not

01:37:44.720 the way you and i have today choosing whether or not to vote for the conservatives or the liberals

01:37:49.900 there is no free agency in that same way for those who are suffering who are in the worst

01:37:56.140 articulations of active addiction and so society needs to intervene in that in that sense because

01:38:02.440 they're vulnerable in the same way that we would want to protect anyone who is vulnerable especially

01:38:06.660 if we talked about those who are underage we talk about those who who have been compromised and don't

01:38:12.760 have the the agency and the capacity to make decisions for themselves that is what a well-ordered

01:38:19.540 state does and it does it through compassionate mechanisms so first of all the lie has been put

01:38:25.400 there in the first place you have to choose but it's not enabling compassion like it's really

01:38:29.160 important to distinguish between compassion and enabling i mean the psychoanalysts have been doing

01:38:33.280 that for like a hundred years if your brand of compassion is uh okay dear you can do whatever

01:38:39.480 terrible thing you want and i won't intervene because i don't want to hurt your feelings that's

01:38:43.160 not compassion that's i don't even know how to describe that well it's enabling it's a devouring

01:38:47.820 form of enabling yeah and so like the compassionate thing often to do with someone who's in real

01:38:52.960 trouble is to use judgment right and to think well no that's pretty much going to come to a stop this

01:38:58.120 is not acceptable and we need to do something about it and so that's partly why i think the alberta

01:39:02.820 approach is so interesting is francis george an american clergyman once said that that fundamentally

01:39:09.400 our society is one that permits and allows and encourages everything but forgives nothing and i think

01:39:15.620 that there's something really transcendent about that it's fully on display here that fundamentally the

01:39:21.260 idea of of the the the addiction anthropology adopted by the left is that those in addiction

01:39:27.240 we need to sort of continue to palliate their addiction indefinitely with higher and higher

01:39:31.140 powered opioids that's the most radical articulation of what was called harm reduction and in that state

01:39:36.560 becomes a harm production right that's that's not the case from my perspective is that instead of just

01:39:44.000 saying everything's permitted like an important redress to addiction is that there are consequences for

01:39:48.640 actions now i'm not saying this as a minister of justice i don't want to criminalize this but

01:39:54.100 continuing to just destroy your life and cause threats and harm to your community more broadly

01:40:00.220 shouldn't be permitted in society and the consequence of that is right so that's the conservative edge of

01:40:04.940 it i would say philosophically as well is that these these tent encampments these these gang

01:40:11.020 encampments are threats to civil order like fundamentally on the on the criminal side on the civil side

01:40:17.300 also with regard to their capacity to undermine our sense of a high trust society and a high trust

01:40:23.240 society is an incredibly valuable resource and and fleeting and oh and and easy to disrupt like

01:40:28.800 terribly easy to disrupt and it's just not acceptable for the public landscape to be littered with

01:40:34.680 with with with what would you say with the with the evidence of systemic and civilizational collapse

01:40:42.880 in the form of homeless people who are completely overcome by their fentanyl induced pathology and

01:40:51.040 so there's nothing about that that's acceptable that fentanyl induced pathology as you describe it

01:40:56.000 um i would say as a public communicator that individual that overdose 186 times the 187th time

01:41:02.820 might be death right and so the alternative to treatment um is is tragedy right those are our two

01:41:10.920 options here which is why i'm going to be introducing legislation next spring uh tragedy by omission that's

01:41:16.960 the complex thing we can just let you die or help you die because well i mean that's that's the

01:41:21.700 assumptions that they said there's no problem with just continuing to facilitate addiction as long as

01:41:25.620 it's a safe drug indefinitely that's not my assumption that my assumption is instead that that

01:41:30.160 life is valuable it has dignity we ought to help it um we have to help all individuals and health care

01:41:35.620 should heal and not harm which these assumptions are radical when you talk about the public health

01:41:41.320 policies across all of you know canada for sure i'm going to be introducing legislation called

01:41:46.480 compassion intervention and so if somebody is a danger to themselves or others due to their substance

01:41:52.520 use or addiction within a reasonable amount of time are going to cause harm to themselves or others

01:41:56.820 then it's a society's responsibility to intervene because the alternative to that intervene

01:42:01.740 intervention is is tragedy it's death it's also other forms of societal intervention because those

01:42:08.560 people are going to come to the attention of the public health or the health care system at some point

01:42:12.700 in the er or they're going to come to the attention of the police and the judicial authorities there

01:42:18.180 isn't an obvious no intervention pathway here that's just it's it's earlier or later and i guess the

01:42:24.500 intervention also needs to right now if you tell someone struggling with an opioid addiction

01:42:28.600 that after they get arrested because say a criminal act that they were pursuing and seek to

01:42:33.560 and trying to seek for more opioids or you name it and you say well jordan about six months from now

01:42:39.440 there's a 25 chance that a court might slap your wrist right and then you have effectively um bail for

01:42:46.320 zero consequences and you get to continue to do what you're doing what would you do if you're an opioid

01:42:50.780 addict well of course you just continue what you're doing that's that's future jordan's problem

01:42:55.080 this jordan today has got got an issue where i need to find some fentanyl right and so instead of

01:43:01.080 that right we need to have a system that has a true recourse to treatment and recovery so the policy

01:43:08.120 that i'm planning to introduce and say if you're a danger to yourself or others and there are

01:43:11.880 appropriate checks and balances to make sure it's not abused then we have an obligation as a society a

01:43:17.260 moral obligation to say we will not let you continue to destroy your life that 187th time that you

01:43:22.700 overdose and die we will not let you risk public safety because of erratic psychosis induced from

01:43:29.480 the methamphetamines or name the drug that you're high on we instead are going to help you through

01:43:36.000 this intervention and it could come in less formal ways it could come through an airline industry with

01:43:41.460 standards and regulations that force this and say there's not a 40 chance six months from now it could

01:43:47.160 come from a law like the one i'm planning to introduce that says instead of just turning you through a

01:43:51.900 system that has no real recourse to help you or bring back confidence to our system and our

01:43:57.300 institutions in canada the recourse will have a consequence that consequences one that is charitable

01:44:02.980 one that is compassionate one that brings long-term likelihood of success for you and for our community

01:44:08.100 when are you introducing that uh this spring

01:44:10.180 when a woman experiences an unplanned pregnancy she often feels alone and afraid too often her first

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01:45:21.660 slash jordan that's preborn.com slash jordan okay okay yeah yeah and at what point what point do you think

01:45:33.960 that i'm thinking about re-evaluating this say at some point in the future at what point do you think

01:45:40.040 that you're the data that you're producing is going to be of sufficient quality and magnitude to

01:45:46.520 review intelligently i mean you have some of it already have some of it now i would say we have some

01:45:52.060 very good data now around the virtual opioid dependency program and others when you're talking

01:45:56.680 about the good sufficient quality data you need longitudinal data yeah yeah that's the nature of this

01:46:01.180 problem right and some of the problem if you look at the really really bad sort of i call them

01:46:05.580 community college professors trying to torque this data and try and argue for unsafe supply and they

01:46:11.760 position themselves as experts and authorities this is another institution that has failed dramatically

01:46:16.080 and canadians and the west has a lot of blame to lay on academia that's and the lies that they have

01:46:22.840 pushed ideologically so if you look at some of the data around unsafe supply they don't just

01:46:28.240 distinguish between opioid agonist therapy and unsafe supply and so they say they have the same

01:46:36.020 outcomes of the good they only track some of this data one or two weeks afterwards i mean you don't

01:46:41.580 need to know one or two weeks after an intervention you need to know after you know if you're if you're

01:46:46.920 mass supplying a high-powered opioid unwitnessed how are they doing two years later and so that's the data

01:46:52.340 we need to collect so i'd say within a few months we're going to have a lot more data on the early

01:46:57.380 stages of our system but this is going to continue to be proved out and we're going to partner with

01:47:01.560 institutions like harvard uh and yale and others to to to credibly and internationalize this because

01:47:08.920 this incredible myopic view that we've seen in canada of these community college professors and

01:47:14.140 activists that have completely claimed the entire space and have not allowed a policy alternative and

01:47:19.580 they bully and and they degrade and they threaten in terms of how they position this academically

01:47:26.000 and they condescend uh that needs to stand up to true scrutiny and if you go international you see

01:47:32.480 these policies have been on offer yeah and they don't want anything to do with it for right reason

01:47:37.120 canada has such opportunity and i think the conservatives interestingly are the group that's

01:47:42.340 bringing forward compassionate social policy and we're winning we're winning in alberta for the first

01:47:48.140 time on an important social debate in decades uh and and we're going to continue to face the

01:47:53.780 obstacles of uh institutions like academia that rail against us the media that have um have guidance

01:48:00.600 for using terms like safe supply rather two billion dollar a year government subsidized that's right

01:48:05.720 those guys we are going to continue and we're going to end up with with challenges all the way

01:48:09.940 through including in the courts where we see the supreme court uh unfortunately has become a place

01:48:15.260 of political activism that at least in the united states they've recognized as antonin scalia said the

01:48:20.840 former supreme court justice the people will have their say if they realize the decisions they care

01:48:25.660 about are not being made in congress and are being made at the supreme court they will politicize those

01:48:30.200 appointments unfortunately the political left in canada has recognized that but the conservative

01:48:35.020 right in canada has just sort of watched every single decision made not through democratic will of

01:48:41.600 the people not through acts of parliament or legislatures but instead by fiat and declaration of nine

01:48:46.640 oligarchs and red and white robes and the supreme court dismantle the institutions that we used to 1.00

01:48:51.860 trust and continue to push the most radical and i mean that truly the most radical policies in the world

01:48:57.240 and defend them and and we will continue to fight against the array of all these different institutions

01:49:02.920 that have failed canadians because fundamentally one the policy is right it is working and that is

01:49:10.080 demonstrably true even if you look at opioid overdoses over the last four months of our public

01:49:14.080 reporting in alberta we've seen anywhere from 42 to 50 decreases year over year oh yeah whereas you

01:49:19.700 look at bc you don't see anything near that for obvious reason that it's starting to work the

01:49:24.860 culture of recovery is working that's the number one reason we're going to keep doing it right that

01:49:28.600 it's working but secondly not only is that common sense that isn't working it's the right thing to do

01:49:33.440 and i think conservatives need to appreciate that we have a moral argument to make that we care

01:49:38.420 compassionately for those who are vulnerable that when we want to do yeah the conservatives have got to

01:49:43.360 get better at taking the moral upper hand away from the progress and because they don't have the moral

01:49:47.640 upper hand no they know how to moralize but but they're they do not come to uh to the debate with

01:49:53.740 any kind of monopoly on the space and conservatives have abandoned it and sometimes the conservatives

01:49:59.200 as a movement broadly across the west have gotten it wrong i'm not defending every instance what i'm

01:50:04.180 saying is you look at where we are now as a society and it's completely different from your

01:50:09.260 childhood in canada when i'm 37 uh and so you're 30 years older than me you said the world you grew

01:50:15.020 up in is categorically different and there's no reason to think that these radical activists that

01:50:19.560 are completely consumed by this intersectional marxist ideology uh that that populate whether it

01:50:25.880 be our academic or our activist lobby groups or our courts there's no way to think that they're

01:50:30.360 going to take the foot off the gas because what they've done has won for so long and so it's going

01:50:34.580 to require a confidence you're going to have to know what you're talking about but you're going

01:50:38.860 to have to also frame this in a moral language that we are doing what is best for those who are

01:50:43.200 vulnerable we truly care and the other side has not only abandoned them it is it has made it just

01:50:49.020 a carnage for those who are suffering from addiction and this is true across almost every

01:50:54.220 social policy that you look at that the left has controlled in canada for the last 30 40 years

01:50:59.500 and i think there's a wonderful opportunity and pierre polyev is doing a terrific job of

01:51:04.040 articulating this federally danielle smith is doing an incredible job just today announced even more 0.95

01:51:09.020 policy uh when it comes to gender uh and protecting families and protecting young individuals great oh

01:51:15.420 today announcement today so uh there is there is the wider population is just craving not even

01:51:22.420 hard-caring conservatives canadians broadly albertans broadly they care about saying this has gone

01:51:28.860 too far and this is this has pushed me into a spot where it seems unrecognizable and so the policies

01:51:34.900 that we have to adopt need to be framed in a way that says we care about the common good we care about

01:51:39.940 our communities and we are not simply talking about it from a dollars and cents perspective we care about

01:51:44.900 the welfare of those who are most vulnerable we care about the success of our community broadly

01:51:49.060 and i think that's an exciting thing happening in canadian politics and and it's alberta largely and this

01:51:54.400 has a great file to demonstrate that we're leading and we're winning that's an excellent place to

01:52:00.440 stop so thank you very much for walking us through that thank you well it would be very useful it would

01:52:06.640 be very useful and i'll do what i can to facilitate it to facilitate communication about these sorts of

01:52:11.740 programs on the international side because what you guys are doing in alberta is interestingly

01:52:17.240 uh practical it's revolutionary in an interestingly practical sense and it would be lovely to see it

01:52:25.580 succeed and be and be adopted elsewhere i would say that it is alberta is this wonderful place that

01:52:31.480 is grounded in a place of heritage of who we are it's a province and these values but we're willing

01:52:36.160 to be entrepreneurs yeah right in that sense and yeah you have to give credit to premier daniel smith

01:52:40.460 for taking the lead on this and yeah that's for sure incredible and jason kenney as well before her

01:52:45.180 when it comes to this addiction file it was an innovative policy that he spearheaded as well

01:52:49.520 so i think we've had terrific leadership in our province that have allowed us to get to the spot

01:52:53.460 where we're starting to see the fruits of this where we see overdose deaths reducing it's just

01:52:58.180 credible to see those those activists who oppose the policy they have to explain why they're against

01:53:03.160 40 to 50 percent overdose deaths for opioids year over year in these last four months uh and and it's

01:53:09.120 it's incredible how obvious it puts squarely that this is ideal ideology for them right they don't

01:53:15.100 care about about those who are suffering uh sadly those activists are more committed to an ideology

01:53:21.900 than they are to to the dignity of the human person they're more committed to their self

01:53:27.200 aggrandizement for for bearing the standards of the ideology than anything else yeah all right sir

01:53:33.060 that was very nice talking to you absolutely so we're going to continue this discussion on the

01:53:38.320 daily wire side for another half an hour so that you can join us there um i think i'll talk a bit

01:53:43.360 in a bit more detail about the alberta and canadian political landscape and the relationship between

01:53:49.480 that and uh well the international culture war i suppose for lack of a better word and and uh so

01:53:56.800 and i could i'll talk a little bit too uh about what we're doing on the alliance for responsible

01:54:03.240 citizenship front to start to shift the cultural narrative in ways that are already starting to

01:54:08.940 happen in places like alberta and may happen much more broadly in canada when pierre polyev takes

01:54:14.080 the helm which is highly likely sometime in the next year depending on how rapidly mr trudeau

01:54:20.360 continues to degenerate and perish so all right join us on the daily wire side

01:54:26.180 you

01:54:37.600 you

01:54:39.600 you

01:54:41.600 you

01:54:43.600 you

01:54:45.600 you

01:54:47.600 you

01:54:49.600 you

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - November 11, 2024

497. Alberta vs Ottawa： A New Vision of Health ｜ Minister Dan Williams

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