The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

00:00:00.000 So Brazil has been on people's minds more in the United States and perhaps in the world

00:00:22.000 as of late, not least because Elon Musk has had a very public dispute with, what would you say,

00:00:31.940 a renowned member of the Brazilian Supreme Court. And that has a multitude of implications

00:00:38.700 for the battle between free speech and government regulation and ideological control across the

00:00:45.420 world. Now, I had the opportunity today to speak with Mr. Eduardo Bolsonaro, who's a congressman,

00:00:52.120 in Brazil, and who's also the son of Jairo Bolsonaro, who was the president of Brazil,

00:00:58.120 who's ran an unorthodox campaign, mostly on social media, and became president for a four-year term.

00:01:07.240 And so we had a chance today to talk about the culture war in Brazil, which is very similar to

00:01:15.040 the culture war that's running rampant in the United States and in Canada and in Europe and in New Zealand

00:01:20.520 and in Australia, all across the Western world and all across the world as a whole, to a lesser degree,

00:01:27.800 although that will mount. And we delved into, well, the political structure of Brazil, the political

00:01:34.140 landscape there and how it's shifting as a consequence of the social media revolution.

00:01:38.100 We spoke a fair bit about the background to the dispute that Musk is having with the Brazilian

00:01:43.840 Supreme Court. And we outlined the implications of that dispute for the battle between free speech

00:01:50.340 and government regulation and ideology, as I said, across the world. It's been my experience that

00:01:56.520 getting to know the political landscape on the various countries that I visited and have been able

00:02:02.980 to familiarize myself with to some degree helps me deepen my understanding of what's relevant and

00:02:09.160 important more locally, say, in the United States, in Canada. And I think the discussion that I had

00:02:16.640 today with Mr. Bolsonaro with regard to Brazil has exactly the same consequence. There's something

00:02:25.240 deep at work in the world at the moment, and you can see it reflected everywhere. And the more places

00:02:31.000 you analyze it, the more positions you can analyze it from, the more the contours become clear. And so you can

00:02:37.620 walk through this discussion with us. You'll learn more about South America and Central America. You'll

00:02:43.100 learn more about Brazil. You'll learn more about the political landscape in general and about the

00:02:47.300 culture war. Specifically, you'll have some new light shed on the battle between Musk and X and the

00:02:53.660 Brazilian Supreme Court, and you'll walk away smarter and more informed. So that's a good deal. So join us

00:03:00.180 for that. Well, Mr. Bolsonaro, thank you very much for coming in today. I was recently in South America. I

00:03:08.620 spent a few days in Brazil. That was extremely interesting. And one of the things that dawned on

00:03:14.740 me when I was there, although I knew it a bit before, was that many of the issues that are relevant on the

00:03:21.200 culture war front in North America and in Europe are equally relevant in South America and perhaps

00:03:27.360 particularly in Brazil. And so I guess we should, and so that's why I thought at least in part that

00:03:32.960 a podcast like this would be useful and interesting. Also, there isn't a tremendous amount of attention

00:03:41.660 paid to South American issues in the North American press or in the European press for that matter. And

00:03:47.480 that's probably not how it should be, all things considered. And I thought, well, because of that,

00:03:55.020 it would also be useful to bring people some more information about South America,

00:04:01.620 the political situation there, and again, more specifically Brazil. So, but I think we'll start

00:04:06.180 with a bit of a personal discussion. Let everybody know, well, who you are and what you're doing in

00:04:12.120 Brazil and talk about your family and recent Brazilian history. And then we'll expand out from there,

00:04:18.180 I think. Sure. Francis, great honor to be here with you, Professor. Sure. After your trip to Brazil,

00:04:24.780 you know that Brazilians usually love you because your courage and your background, the issues about

00:04:31.680 Canada, even that made you to move yourself to U.S. We have the same problem in Brazil. But it's starting

00:04:38.340 from your question before you go deep in all of this culture war and culture issues. My name is

00:04:45.140 Eduardo Bolsonaro. I'm 40 years old. I have two kids, one of four, my daughter, she has four years

00:04:52.760 old, and I have a boy of one. I'm very well married with Eloisa, who led me to be here. And I'm the third

00:05:00.160 son of the former president of Brazil, Jair Bolsonaro. Before I talk about the recent political scenario,

00:05:08.940 and it's very important to remark that Brazil, we lived from 1964 until 1985, a military regime

00:05:15.840 that started avoiding Brazil to turn itself as Cuba because we had at that time a communist president

00:05:25.400 that was trying to bring Brazil to the same situation of Cuba. So people on the street with the support of

00:05:31.640 the Catholic Church and some other sectors of our society approved to the Congress to impeach this

00:05:40.480 president. And then we start to have a period of time from 64 until 85 electing indirectly because

00:05:49.420 in these elections, the senators and the congressmen voted for president only, not the popular vote,

00:05:55.980 only the Congress voting. But every five years, a new president, a military general president during

00:06:03.920 this period of time. So after 85, we get back again with the democracy that we have nowadays

00:06:10.060 and start to elect new presidents as pretty much as like in United States. And during this period of

00:06:19.780 time, my father, in the end of the 80s, he was an army captain. So I born in 84, 1984, my father was an

00:06:28.820 army captain and two older brothers than me. And in the end of the 80s, my father had some problems inside

00:06:38.740 of the army because he was complaining about the salary of the militaries. And he did not have the permission

00:06:46.020 of his superiors to do interviews. So he did an interview for a famous magazine in Brazil, and he became

00:06:52.960 very famous. But because of that, as he didn't have the permission of the superiors, he went 15 days

00:07:00.580 in jail, in the military jail. And to calm down the situation, he ran for city council in Rio de Janeiro in 1988.

00:07:10.680 Because when you do that, you receive three months off in the army. And I'm not sure if he did expect to get

00:07:21.260 elected, but he did get elected city council of Rio de Janeiro in 1988. And then 1990, he ran for congressman,

00:07:31.920 so federal representative, got elected. And every four years, he stayed 28 years inside of the congress

00:07:40.020 getting reelected, mainly through the votes of the militaries and their families. So in this situation,

00:07:48.860 there is a very key point around 2010, I can tell you, where the politically correct in Brazil

00:07:56.260 started to increase a lot.

00:07:58.260 Around 2010.

00:07:59.260 Yeah, around this year. And my father, he did an interview, and it got, I think it was his first

00:08:07.020 viral interview on internet, where he's talking about a situation in a jail in Brazil. There was

00:08:13.780 a jail in Brazil, the name of the jail is Pedrinhas Jail. In this jail, criminals start to kill each other.

00:08:21.540 And my father was running to be the chairman of the human rights committee in the congress,

00:08:27.600 in the house. And a lot of microphones around him and journalists start to do some dumb questions

00:08:34.700 and trying to say, oh, don't you fear, don't you care about the life of the prisoners? They are

00:08:40.100 prisoners. They're, you know, it's a human life. And he said, come on, you don't want to go to the jail?

00:08:46.720 It's just to do not rob, do not murder, do not kidnap anyone else. And start to say some bad words

00:08:53.960 because it was very explosive. And this interview came very viral. And at that time, I was in the

00:09:02.380 federal police. I'm a lawyer. And I was in the federal police. My first service was on the border

00:09:07.060 between Brazil and Bolivia. And then I moved myself. I was transferred to Sao Paulo. But during that time,

00:09:13.340 in 2014, I asked my father, hey, father, I see you most, like almost alone in some of the debates

00:09:21.820 that you face inside of the congress. Would you support me to run for the congress? So maybe

00:09:25.920 instead of only one congressman, we could be two. And he supported me. I run from the state of Sao Paulo.

00:09:33.540 Sao Paulo, I received a little bit more than 82,000 votes. Because in Brazil, when you vote

00:09:38.920 for someone, you vote in the state and actually go to the house. So in the state of Sao Paulo,

00:09:45.240 I received 82,000 votes. And we spent a little bit less than around $10,000 in my campaign.

00:09:54.700 So he financed my campaign too. And I became a congressman.

00:10:00.040 And so he was still a congressman at that time. Yes.

00:10:03.600 So let me get the timeline right before we go on. I just want to make sure. So

00:10:06.960 from, you mentioned a regime in Brazil that was similar to the regime in Cuba.

00:10:13.740 Tell me the dates for that. All right. So before 1964.

00:10:19.260 It was before 64. Yes. We had a president called Jânio Quadros.

00:10:23.720 After seven months in the presidency, in our White House, he resigned.

00:10:31.220 And there is no reason for that. It's a very funny chapter of our story.

00:10:35.520 Because when he resigned, he said that forces outside of the earth, like kind of aliens.

00:10:42.980 There was a kind of a threat against him. And that's why he resided.

00:10:49.340 Well, that'll do it, you know.

00:10:52.500 But then his vice president was a huge communist guy.

00:10:55.820 And he was starting to talk to end with the private property, get the farms and get the land of the farmers and send it to the people.

00:11:07.540 You know, this kind of issue, very strong at that time.

00:11:11.140 Regarding that in Cuba, the revolution is 1959.

00:11:14.220 Right.

00:11:14.560 So we are talking five years after that.

00:11:16.520 And so he was thinking the way it should turn Brazil into a communist country.

00:11:22.600 And the major part of our society didn't want that.

00:11:26.360 So the National Association of the Press, Catholic Church, farmers, militaries for sure.

00:11:33.080 So we start to have a lot of huge protests.

00:11:35.200 More than one million people in Rio de Janeiro, for example, on the streets,

00:11:39.060 asking that the militaries should not let Brazil turn itself as a Cuba.

00:11:43.200 And so the Congress on April 1st of 1964, the Congress said,

00:11:51.200 if the president do not come to the capital in Brasilia, he was on a trip in China.

00:11:57.100 If he not come back to Brazil, to the capital, we are going to declare that the presidential chair is vacancy.

00:12:05.060 There is no one in the presidential chair.

00:12:06.960 And we will open for a new election.

00:12:09.240 So this was after the gentleman that you described had resigned because of this interference from external forces.

00:12:17.660 Yes.

00:12:17.960 And the Congress elected, a couple of days later of that, the Congress elected the first general of this period of time, in 1964.

00:12:26.680 The military said that they would give back the power to the civil society very quick.

00:12:31.240 But after almost two years, we started to have radical left groups bombing airports, kidnapping airplanes.

00:12:41.160 And even the U.S. ambassador was kidnapped during the 70s in Brazil.

00:12:46.420 So with this atmosphere, the military said, all right, we cannot give you back the power because you have a lot of instability.

00:12:51.800 So we are going to rule the country from now on.

00:12:54.960 And they stayed there for 20 years.

00:12:56.880 Okay, and that was the time during when the president was nominated by the Congress.

00:13:04.220 Yes.

00:13:04.840 Congress and the court and not the people.

00:13:07.700 Yeah, only the Congress.

00:13:08.680 The senators and the federal representatives vote for president.

00:13:13.020 And how did Brazilians generally react to that form of government from 64 to 85?

00:13:19.420 It's half and a half, I can tell you.

00:13:21.500 Some of the people, they miss this period of time because it's a period of time that, for example, the murder rates of Brazil, it was almost the same level of the United States.

00:13:31.520 We developed a lot our economy.

00:13:34.240 We became number 44 economy of the world to top 10 economy of the world.

00:13:39.040 It's a period of time that we have the huge infrastructure buildings as the nuclear using of Angra dos Reis, the hydroelectric using of Itaipu, that it was the hugest, the number one, the biggest of the world.

00:13:54.560 Now China, they had one bigger than ours.

00:13:57.840 Roads all over the country.

00:13:59.300 So they really reduced the corruption, invest a lot in the infrastructure of the country.

00:14:08.100 And during a period of time, we had a lot of prosperity.

00:14:11.860 But in the 80s, the economic rise, mainly coming from the oil crisis, from the Middle East and the increase of the prices and some other issues, Brazil stopped, stagnated in the economy.

00:14:25.540 And the political pressure to give back the opportunity to the people to vote, it was increasing.

00:14:32.380 So there are two generals that were president in the end of the 70s and beginning of the 80s.

00:14:39.260 What they did is, first, in 79, they gave amnesty to all of the radical left-wing groups, you know, that kidnapped the U.S. ambassador, that killed some militaries,

00:14:53.540 even foreign militaries in Brazil, you know, to everybody go back again to the country and trying to pacificate the country and give it back.

00:15:03.860 It wasn't necessary, you know, shooting or killing other people.

00:15:08.120 The military said, okay, the president at that time, João Figueiredo, it was a military general.

00:15:13.160 He said, okay, we are going to give back the permission of people to vote.

00:15:16.940 Is that what you want?

00:15:18.100 I will give you back this permission.

00:15:19.860 But he warned, you are going to feel to miss the time that we were here in the capital because we care about people.

00:15:29.140 This radical left, they are going to take power.

00:15:31.920 They are going to make you suffer.

00:15:33.300 And I hope, God, on day that you are going to ask the militaries again to take the power again.

00:15:40.660 Let's see what happens.

00:15:42.140 We say that this is the prophecy of the president, Figueiredo.

00:15:47.380 And after, I don't know, 30 years after that, we are in this situation that we have nowadays.

00:15:54.000 So a lot of the Brazilians who lived that time, not the Brazilians who know about press articles or left-wing professors that they have in the university or in the college.

00:16:05.400 So part of the Brazilians, they miss this period of time.

00:16:08.960 Some others think that it was very bad because you have censorship, you have the state killing people, people who were exhalated outside of Brazil.

00:16:20.060 So I could say it's 50-50 in my opinion.

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00:17:45.600 And so, it seems reasonable to presume that the political spectrum in Brazil for many, many decades has been much more polarized, right and left, than is typical in the United States and Canada and Europe.

00:18:07.600 That there's more activity on the radical left and more activity on the right.

00:18:11.340 Is that a reasonable way of looking at it as far as you're concerned?

00:18:14.040 And the left, they have, they're a minority that speak louder.

00:18:18.760 Why do they speak louder?

00:18:20.040 Because they control the press.

00:18:22.140 They control the unions.

00:18:24.220 They control part of the politics.

00:18:26.660 And on the right side, on the side that I consider myself, in the conservative or better, on the non-left side, we don't have even a political party.

00:18:37.100 We don't have a university or college.

00:18:40.320 You don't have a union.

00:18:41.340 You don't have a think tank.

00:18:42.940 If you look to the U.S., for example, since the 70s, you have Heritage Foundation think tank.

00:18:47.500 You have CPAC.

00:18:49.240 You had Ronald Reagan.

00:18:50.480 You have some leaderships that are very known and conservative sides.

00:18:55.240 So, in Brazil, we are starting to build that.

00:18:57.720 What about the military in Brazil?

00:18:59.940 Is it right-wing, fundamentally?

00:19:02.820 Most of them, I say yes.

00:19:05.260 Yes.

00:19:05.620 So, is it reasonable to say that the right in Brazil has the military and the left has the institutions that you, the other institutions that you described?

00:19:13.760 So-so in their particular opinion.

00:19:16.660 But the military, they do not go to politics.

00:19:20.540 After 85, what happened is the left, as they control the media, mainly the media, they start to demonize the militaries.

00:19:28.640 So, during the 80s and 90s, you don't have a politician say, I'm a right-wing politician.

00:19:33.500 This was almost forbidden.

00:19:34.600 Again, the sense of democracy in Brazil that we had, it was the PT, the Liberal Party, which is extreme left, communists, like, I can tell you, AOC, Bernie Saunders.

00:19:46.940 It's the same kind of people that have a relationship with Lula da Silva and people from their party in Brazil.

00:19:52.000 And the Social Democrats, which is center-left.

00:19:55.720 This, we thought, it was democracy, you know?

00:19:59.160 I see, I see.

00:19:59.700 But then, when my father starts to appear in the national scenario, they say, oh, wait a minute.

00:20:06.080 This is not right.

00:20:07.320 Right is Jair Bolsonaro or more to the right here.

00:20:11.800 So, we changed the spectrum of Brazil.

00:20:15.260 And in that sense, it's so true what I'm talking about, because in the previous election, you had the Social Democrat, Geraldo Alckmin, running for president.

00:20:25.580 He was calling Lula da Silva from the Liberal Party as a thief, as a criminal.

00:20:32.560 Now, guess what?

00:20:34.500 The vice president of Lula da Silva is this guy, Geraldo Alckmin.

00:20:39.700 And they don't even have a shame because of that.

00:20:43.500 So, my father, it was disruptive.

00:20:46.900 It's like, you know, the king is naked.

00:20:49.600 My father was the one saying, oh, the king is naked.

00:20:53.160 And everybody starts to pay attention about what is going on, mainly because now, after 2010, you have a new content in this political scenario, which it is Internet.

00:21:03.380 With the Internet, we break the monopoly of the mainstream media.

00:21:06.540 Right, right, right.

00:21:07.000 And we start to bring more information.

00:21:08.940 As you know, that's why they are trying to regulate and democratize the Internet and social media.

00:21:14.040 But at the end of the day, we all know that they want to control the narrative because they lost that.

00:21:18.480 Yes, and of course, Elon Musk's battle with Brazil has been with the Brazilian political leadership.

00:21:24.820 This is a deep story, Professor, that we can talk.

00:21:27.520 Yeah, yeah, well, I think we should get into that.

00:21:29.900 Okay, so, okay, so that, so your father was a city councilor in 1988 and a congressman in 1990.

00:21:37.680 And then he spent 28 years in Congress.

00:21:40.200 And the story that you're telling now is that he shifted the spectrum of political discourse in Brazil from center-left, radical-left, to radical-left, center-left.

00:21:55.460 And what would you describe him?

00:21:57.000 Where would you put him on the political spectrum?

00:21:59.200 You described yourself as center-right.

00:22:01.260 Yes, I'll put it right.

00:22:04.620 Why not?

00:22:05.560 People sometimes say, oh, far, far, far right.

00:22:07.840 Yeah, well, that's...

00:22:09.100 Far right for me is another thing because what Lula and the communists, they want, they want to control the economy 100%.

00:22:15.580 We want to, we want, what is the opposite of control the economy 100% is when you do not have any kind of administration.

00:22:25.940 It's a narco-capitalist.

00:22:27.080 We are not a narco-capitalist.

00:22:28.440 We believe in a minimum size of the administration.

00:22:32.640 We don't want to destroy the administration.

00:22:34.560 We need a government to rule some things.

00:22:38.140 And I have to be, you have to be very sensitive when I talk about that to do not go far away.

00:22:43.080 What is rule something?

00:22:45.040 For example, you have the right to go and back to your home and to the work.

00:22:50.680 All right?

00:22:51.020 You drive your car.

00:22:52.060 But you cannot drive your car on the wrong way because you are going to put in risk other people's life, crashing other people's car.

00:22:59.620 So to somehow rule these kind of situations and the situations where the individual cannot do, for example, everybody knows that, have the sense that kill each other is a wrong thing.

00:23:16.560 All right?

00:23:16.880 Everybody believe in that.

00:23:17.960 We should not be a society where everybody is killing everybody.

00:23:20.360 So we need the police.

00:23:22.560 We need somehow defend our territory from other countries.

00:23:27.880 Because maybe you have in our neighborhood a dictatorship that wants to invade your country.

00:23:32.740 If you look nowadays to Ukraine and Russia, to Venezuela and Guyana, Maduro saying that he wants to get the territory of Ezequibo and some other patriots of the world, makes sense that you need an army.

00:23:44.500 So to defend your country, preserve your culture, to have a civilization on the streets, police, and one or two points, you need the state, you need the administration.

00:24:00.680 So it's a limited government vision.

00:24:02.660 Would you regard your view?

00:24:04.820 Now, first of all, I guess I'd like to know, are your father and yourself relatively united in your political views?

00:24:11.280 So, yes, okay, so we can just discuss that, the two of you as a unit in some way.

00:24:16.420 Yeah, I do not talk in his name, but.

00:24:18.920 Right, okay, I got the picture.

00:24:20.800 And so the way that you laid out the Brazilian political landscape since 1985 is basically an argument between two parties on the left.

00:24:30.080 And so I'm still trying to place the Brazilian political spectrum, because in Canada, say, and also in the United States, you have the socialist types, let's say.

00:24:39.700 And then you have the classic liberals who are more in the middle.

00:24:42.180 And in Canada, traditionally, that was the liberal part.

00:24:44.880 Classical liberal in Brazil would be on the right.

00:24:46.220 Yeah, yeah.

00:24:47.040 And so, and the right wing that you're talking about in Brazil, would you describe that?

00:24:52.480 Could you characterize it as more libertarian?

00:24:54.880 Would you call it more classic liberal?

00:24:56.380 Or would you call it more classic conservative?

00:24:59.520 We, I consider myself classical conservative.

00:25:02.480 Okay.

00:25:02.960 But I'm very friend, for example, of the classical liberal when you talk about economy.

00:25:09.300 Because if you go to Brazil and you say, I'm a liberal, they are not going to link you with the left.

00:25:14.880 They're going to link you with the right.

00:25:16.820 Okay, that's what I was wondering.

00:25:18.340 Liberal here is people who want to control your life, control the free speech on social media.

00:25:25.200 One of the huge administrations, increase the taxes.

00:25:28.960 Right.

00:25:29.400 Liberal here increasingly means progressive, right?

00:25:32.060 And that means left.

00:25:33.440 Liberal in Brazil is?

00:25:34.900 Free market.

00:25:35.480 Less taxes, free market.

00:25:36.400 Yeah, okay.

00:25:36.960 And the difference between our liberals and me, who are in the position of conservative, it will be about maybe drugs.

00:25:44.540 They want to have a more flexible rules about drugs.

00:25:47.820 I am against to open, you know, to have more flexibility on the drug law, for example, the regulations.

00:25:55.720 But you have some, as in Brazil, we are deep in a moral crisis.

00:26:01.560 This is not a priority.

00:26:04.360 The priority is to rescue our country, to people believe again that we can have an administration that take care of the people.

00:26:14.000 Take care now.

00:26:14.860 Look to the people.

00:26:16.440 Because the current president, what he's doing, he's increasing the taxes, travel all around the world.

00:26:21.000 Like the first year of Lula da Silva as president of Brazil, he spent more than two months outside of Brazil, spending a little bit more than $200,000 daily when he's traveling outside of Brazil.

00:26:36.640 He's staying in the most expensive hotels, you know.

00:26:40.520 And when he comes back to Brazil, he starts to tax people.

00:26:45.320 We have, for example, usually people in Brazil, when you buy something, mainly from China, and it's less than $50, the product that you are buying, you do not pay any kind of tax.

00:26:58.280 And usually poor people or medium class, they do that.

00:27:01.660 Lula is taxing even this kind of situation.

00:27:04.580 And he spent more money than my father, Jair Bolsonaro, when he was president during the pandemic.

00:27:13.060 Imagine, how can someone spend more money than the other president during the pandemic?

00:27:20.720 So that's why the price of the American dollars in Brazil is exploding and the numbers of the economy are not that good.

00:27:29.040 Still, Lula da Silva, he had a situation where he's receiving a lot of benefits from the previous administration because he privatized a lot.

00:27:39.580 We reduced a lot of taxes.

00:27:41.380 We became the number four in the world when you talk about receiving foreign investments.

00:27:45.520 We are doing very good.

00:27:48.520 It was the first time in history that Brazil, we had less inflation than the United States.

00:27:53.280 Because we had a liberal, classical liberal economy ministry called Paulo Guedes, who received 100% of autonomy from the president, from my father, to do his work.

00:28:06.960 Because my father, he knows his place.

00:28:08.680 He said, I'm a non-economist.

00:28:10.100 Right.

00:28:10.540 But I will appoint someone that can do the homework as never seen in Brazil.

00:28:15.140 So it was the first time since 1985 that we had a liberal, a Chicago boy, in the minister of economy, like with the possibility to do his work.

00:28:27.580 Okay.

00:28:28.020 So let's build up to that again.

00:28:29.940 So let's go back to when you ran for Congress.

00:28:32.320 So now at that point, your father is still a congressman.

00:28:35.680 Yes.

00:28:35.860 So take us through the story from there.

00:28:38.180 All right.

00:28:38.560 So keeping this story, in 2014, I was elected, 82,224 votes.

00:28:43.820 And in my first term, I was looking to my father, increasing his popularity, going every place in Brazil.

00:28:55.040 Like usually on Thursday, he traveled to a different state, coming back to the capital in Brasilia on Friday.

00:29:02.400 So traveling every week, almost every week, all around Brazil.

00:29:06.820 Still as a congressman.

00:29:08.420 Yeah, still as a congressman.

00:29:09.560 So what's making him popular?

00:29:11.160 Why is he popular?

00:29:12.520 Because he's a congressman.

00:29:14.140 He's obviously distinguishing himself from other congressmen.

00:29:16.880 What's he doing differently that's attractive?

00:29:18.800 Stepping outside of the politically correct.

00:29:21.500 Oh, yes.

00:29:22.080 Okay.

00:29:22.620 So when someone says that you are racist.

00:29:25.060 So, okay.

00:29:25.760 Why am I a racist?

00:29:27.360 I do not support affirmative action for black people.

00:29:29.940 Because in Brazil, since when the Portuguese arrived in Brazil in the year 1,500, they start to mix with the Indians.

00:29:36.940 Because then the blacks, and we are all mixed.

00:29:40.560 You did go to Brazil.

00:29:41.800 You can look to someone and say, oh, you look European.

00:29:44.360 You look Latin.

00:29:45.300 You look Indian.

00:29:46.060 You look black.

00:29:47.360 We don't have this issue as strong as you have here in the United States.

00:29:51.540 So if you consider, if you vote against affirmative action for black people in Brazil, because we will have black people very rich in Brazil, they say that you label you as a racist.

00:30:02.920 For example, there was a bill in Brazil that if you look for the bill, you can clearly see that pastors could go to jail if they read part of the Bible.

00:30:17.600 Is it fair?

00:30:18.340 No, this is unfair.

00:30:19.420 So when he positioned against this kind of bill, people say you are homophobic.

00:30:24.300 But in the end of the day, why was it so important he traveled all around Brazil?

00:30:31.900 Because when you go to some states, they have a local press, and they do not receive public money.

00:30:38.420 So when you're talking on radio, you're talking with a maid, with a trucker driver, with regular common people.

00:30:45.420 Or directly.

00:30:46.000 And they're listening to Jerry Bolsonaro, they say, this guy is not crazy.

00:30:51.740 He's not the crazy guy that CNN tells me that is crazy.

00:30:54.420 This guy, I agree with him.

00:30:56.400 So when the election came on 2018, aside of this work, also of the crisis of internet, smartphone, social media, my father became a phenomenon.

00:31:07.860 It was fashion, you know, support him.

00:31:10.240 And thanks God, the left, the establishment, they were all the time saying that he was so ridiculous that he would never be the president.

00:31:19.440 But he became elected in 2018.

00:31:23.180 And at that time, I ran into for my first election.

00:31:26.420 Did he know when he was starting to speak more broadly across Brazil early on, do you think he had visions of the presidency at that point?

00:31:38.200 Like, was this a...

00:31:39.400 Yes, yes.

00:31:40.460 I do.

00:31:40.800 So that was an ambition.

00:31:42.960 And when...

00:31:44.200 The right feeling is he was fed up with the Congress.

00:31:49.920 Like, you are only one in the middle of 513 federal representatives.

00:31:56.040 You don't have the power to do whatever you want.

00:31:58.280 You can do bills, but to approve a bill is very different.

00:32:01.140 He was looking a radical left-wing administration ruling the country, deeply into corruption scandals all the time.

00:32:10.780 And he started to think, if Dilma Rousseff get elected, re-elected, Dilma Rousseff is a former president of Brazil, semi-party of Lula da Silva, the current president, Labour's party.

00:32:22.260 If Dilma Rousseff, who cannot connect one phrase with other phrase, pretty much the same opinion that people have from Kamala Harris here, why not me?

00:32:33.920 And my father, he's really hardworking, really hardworking.

00:32:39.480 He's still nowadays.

00:32:40.360 He's almost 70 years old, and he's every time traveling, every time.

00:32:45.220 I really admire him because I don't know if I, I'm 40, if I could have the same energy of my father to do all of the work that he does.

00:32:52.340 So he starts to think, if Dilma Rousseff did that, why not me?

00:32:57.740 Why I can't be the president?

00:32:59.920 So he starts to go for that.

00:33:04.200 He had a plan, all right?

00:33:05.760 He has a project.

00:33:07.000 He starts to go around, not saying that he's going to be the president, but after this work, people start to realize that he could be a president.

00:33:14.960 Okay, now explain to us how the president is elected in Brazil.

00:33:19.960 I mean, the prime minister in Canada is the leader of the party with the most seats, and the president of the United States is elected directly.

00:33:26.980 What's the situation in Brazil?

00:33:29.360 How is the president elected, and how is he, how is that position related to the other major branches of government in Brazil?

00:33:37.700 Just lay out the structure.

00:33:38.580 Yeah, Brazil is a little bit, it's different from Canada because it's presidentialism, not a parliamentarism, and different from U.S.

00:33:46.760 because here who win in the state get all the votes of the delegates.

00:33:52.760 In Brazil, every vote counts.

00:33:55.640 Every voter, every people count.

00:33:58.260 If you have more than 18 years old, you vote.

00:34:01.680 From 18 until 70 years old, it's mandatory.

00:34:05.260 You have to vote.

00:34:06.040 If you do not vote, you pay a fee you are finding in $1.

00:34:10.220 It's not a big deal, but it still is mandatory.

00:34:12.640 And every country votes.

00:34:17.460 So we are 210 million people living in Brazil.

00:34:20.580 I guess around nowadays, 130, 140 million people in Brazil, they are able to vote.

00:34:27.560 So you have to go all over the country.

00:34:30.680 Here, I know the presidential candidates, they usually look, their focus is on the swing states.

00:34:37.460 Not in Brazil.

00:34:39.320 In Brazil, you have to be everywhere, everywhere, which makes it a little bit harder.

00:34:44.700 You need more energy to do your campaign.

00:34:47.380 And in 2018, my father did his campaign basically with a cell phone.

00:34:52.300 I can tell you, my father didn't spend, to be very conservative in my accounts,

00:34:57.180 he didn't even spend $1 million in his campaign.

00:35:00.840 This is how powerful was the support in favor of Jair Bolsonaro.

00:35:07.460 He, his flags, defend the family, get back again the patriotism, reduce the size of the administration,

00:35:16.360 respect the kids, no gender ideology in the schools, support the law enforcement,

00:35:23.140 get the criminals to the jail, like as much time as you can send them to the jail.

00:35:28.620 So it's the opposite of the left.

00:35:31.580 When you say that all of these flags, the left, they say, no, no, no, we need gender ideology,

00:35:38.860 we need to respect everybody, and all of this narrative that you know, that they start to build.

00:35:46.120 But the mainstream media all the time was labeling my father, like racist, xenophobic,

00:35:51.200 you don't like poor people, you don't like women, you don't like black, you don't like no one.

00:35:55.860 And it's even funny, because at the end of the day, I don't even know if someone like that exists.

00:36:01.540 And people through, mainly by internet, the social media of my father was controlled by my brother, Carlos.

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00:37:31.420 So how did you guys use social media?

00:37:34.080 Like you said, it was a very low-cost campaign, which is extraordinarily interesting.

00:37:38.080 I mean, one of the things the internet's going to do is to knock the prices of campaigns down dramatically.

00:37:43.160 Because, well, Trump went on Rogan a week ago, 44 million views.

00:37:50.840 And those are voluntary views, obviously.

00:37:53.460 People are doing that on purpose, right?

00:37:55.900 Rather than having their TV accidentally on to listen to a soundbite.

00:38:00.280 And the barrier to entry on YouTube and on the social media platforms is basically zero.

00:38:06.220 We've seen this with Pierre Polyev in Canada.

00:38:08.300 So he'll be the next prime minister by all accounts.

00:38:11.940 And the media in Canada, the legacy media, is increasingly state-controlled because it's subsidized.

00:38:19.900 And so it's very pro-Trudeau.

00:38:22.520 It also happens in Brazil.

00:38:24.840 Yeah, yeah.

00:38:25.340 I'm sure it's the same thing.

00:38:26.700 And Polyev just walked around them.

00:38:28.980 He set up his own social media channels, his own YouTube site.

00:38:33.240 He built his own ads.

00:38:34.960 He made micro-documentaries that were 10 minutes long.

00:38:37.560 And some of his micro-documentaries were getting, like, 400,000 views, which in Canada is a lot of views.

00:38:43.120 You know, that would be equivalent to, well, 4 million at least in the United States.

00:38:47.040 And so he just walked around them completely.

00:38:49.120 And you can see with Rogan interviewing Trump and Vance this week, I think the Vance interview already has, like, 6 million views.

00:38:59.020 There's just no need for the legacy media.

00:39:01.160 And so you guys were early adopters of that new technology.

00:39:06.540 Like, a million dollars for a campaign, that's nothing.

00:39:09.800 And so did you use all the main social media platforms?

00:39:13.680 Like, were you guys?

00:39:14.880 I don't know what's active in Brazil.

00:39:16.980 Like, it would be Facebook and Instagram and X and YouTube, primarily TikTok in the United States.

00:39:24.820 Is it the same in Brazil?

00:39:26.000 It's the same situation.

00:39:27.560 But I have to go back to 2018.

00:39:29.880 We had way more freedom.

00:39:32.100 Like, no one...

00:39:32.980 Nowadays, I can guarantee to you that sometimes people think, maybe even write on X, but they do not post that.

00:39:41.280 They do not have problems with the Supreme Court.

00:39:43.640 Right, right.

00:39:44.300 We'll get into that.

00:39:45.240 And I'll tell you how I can make you believe that my father didn't spend even $1 million.

00:39:51.340 And almost all of the campaign we did through the social media is because he got elected in 2018 and he took office on January of 2019.

00:40:01.080 Since 2019, the Supreme Court of Brazil, they opened an investigation called the Fake News Investigation.

00:40:09.080 Oh, yeah.

00:40:09.440 Trying to prove that Jair Bolsonaro, he had kind of AI or an office fitted with public money to destroy the reputation of the journalists and the reputation of the communists and all the other players in the election.

00:40:24.940 Since 2019, we are in 2024, this investigation is still open.

00:40:31.280 They just turned our life, you know, towards...

00:40:35.920 They just did everything that I can do in terms of investigation against my family, against my father, the federal police, went to my father's house to take his vaccine card.

00:40:46.840 And it's funny, this is other things that we have to talk about, the accusations that they say, the accusations against us.

00:40:54.740 And still, they cannot prove...

00:40:57.680 So they were...

00:40:58.480 Were they...

00:40:59.200 Okay, so two things could be happening there.

00:41:01.280 I mean, one, and maybe both are happening.

00:41:04.420 One could be that it's merely an organized harassment campaign.

00:41:08.920 But the other thing is, is that perhaps they're also completely stunned at how successful that tactic was and couldn't believe that it could possibly be managed with no budget whatsoever and merely by communicating.

00:41:22.580 See, one of the things...

00:41:23.180 We do not believe or could build a narrative to destroy us.

00:41:26.900 Yeah, yeah.

00:41:27.200 Because, you know, nowadays, the reality is just a piece of something.

00:41:31.280 Yeah.

00:41:31.800 Reality doesn't matter.

00:41:32.920 Yeah.

00:41:33.040 It's the narrative that they build inside of the mind of the people.

00:41:36.860 Because in the end of the day, the elite, the radical left, they are smart enough.

00:41:41.100 They knew that we won the elections doing everything that we did in social media, traveling all over the country, because the majority part of Brazil, they are conservative.

00:41:48.320 Well, it's funny, though.

00:41:48.720 You know, in the U.S., recently, I think it was within the last six months, Gavin Newsom, who's the governor of California, made some denigrating comments about Joe Rogan.

00:42:00.760 Calling him, his son watches Joe Rogan and me, which I'm quite happy about.

00:42:06.300 And he described Joe Rogan as a fringe figure.

00:42:10.380 And I thought, see, that's really relevant because Gavin Newsom is a fringe figure compared to Joe Rogan.

00:42:16.820 Joe, I think Joe's podcast is number one in 192 countries.

00:42:21.180 I'm not sure it's 192.

00:42:22.700 It might be 92.

00:42:23.440 But it doesn't matter.

00:42:24.800 It's a lot of countries.

00:42:26.080 And so he's definitely the most powerful journalist who's ever lived by a large margin.

00:42:33.120 And CNN is a fringe organization compared to Rogan.

00:42:36.640 But the left in particular, and I would say even the liberals in the more classic sense, they don't understand this at all.

00:42:44.920 They still think that CNN and MSNBC and The Washington Post, for that matter, matter.

00:42:51.900 And they do to some limited degree.

00:42:53.740 But that time is seriously over.

00:42:55.320 And so I'm wondering, even in Brazil, it could be that you guys were seriously on the cutting edge of the communication revolution.

00:43:03.640 And the people that are watching you just have absolutely no idea how powerful it is because that isn't their territory.

00:43:09.540 Yes, yes.

00:43:11.260 And the thing that makes us kind of special is because my father, he has authenticity.

00:43:17.900 He is original.

00:43:19.760 He's pretty much like Trump.

00:43:21.060 He frustrates, he does not stop to think, oh, I'm going to speak that.

00:43:25.120 Is it good or bad?

00:43:26.220 Let me do it this way.

00:43:28.360 No, no, no.

00:43:28.980 They think they talk.

00:43:30.700 You know, it doesn't matter.

00:43:31.840 Is it going to hurt you?

00:43:33.320 It's your problem.

00:43:34.260 Sorry if you are so sensitive.

00:43:35.400 Oh, so people start to trust you.

00:43:39.720 You open a live streaming.

00:43:41.760 Like, I remember that when a new scandal against my father, oh, he's a racist.

00:43:47.520 Oh, he's this and that.

00:43:48.900 When something shows up, the first thing that he does is open a live streaming and start to talk about that openly.

00:43:55.820 That's why people trust on him.

00:43:57.960 You know, all the other politicians before I speak or do an interview, the first thing that they do, they go to someone in there on one of the assistants.

00:44:04.480 Oh, you are from the market.

00:44:06.780 Should I say that?

00:44:07.820 Am I going to earn more votes saying this or that?

00:44:11.380 And then they call the press for a conference and do a beautiful speech.

00:44:16.540 So we are on the other way.

00:44:18.320 If you look for the social media of my father, you are going to see that most parts of the videos are low-cost videos.

00:44:26.160 You don't need a cell phone to do that.

00:44:27.860 It's not something beautiful with content and edited, you know.

00:44:32.860 So these things makes you connect with the people.

00:44:39.300 For example, one of the things they always try to say is that, oh, J.B. Bolsonaro, he's not Rumble.

00:44:44.880 Like, he wore soccer team jerseys to pretend to be someone popular.

00:44:50.620 But my father is the same in front of the cameras and behind of the cameras.

00:44:56.240 And in the end of the day, people realize that.

00:44:58.800 There was a very special case when he was president right in the beginning of the pandemic,

00:45:05.680 where you had people on the beaches of Rio de Janeiro getting arrested because the whole city was in a lockdown, very strong lockdown.

00:45:15.200 So it was forbidden to you to get out of your house, basically like that, like in Canada.

00:45:20.760 And you have some videos of one or two ladies on the beach and the cops going there to arrest these people.

00:45:28.820 And in a meeting of the president, my father, J.B. Bolsonaro, with his ministries,

00:45:36.060 he's talking like using very bad and very strong words.

00:45:41.560 Why is not the justice ministry talking about this kind of issue?

00:45:46.720 Drug dealers cannot be arrested like that.

00:45:49.340 Why ladies on the beach getting D-vitamin are going to be in jail because of that?

00:45:54.640 And at this meeting, he with his ministers, it was recorded, but not for the public.

00:46:03.080 How people watch that?

00:46:05.320 Because the Supreme Court, I think one year after all of that,

00:46:10.600 God gave an order to the president.

00:46:13.020 Hey, President Bolsonaro, we want the video of your meetings with the ministries.

00:46:18.140 And he gave for the lucky of my father, expecting to give in the first hand, the breaking news to the people.

00:46:27.620 Oh, look, President Bolsonaro talking bad words.

00:46:30.180 Look how bad he is behind the scenes.

00:46:32.260 This is Bolsonaro.

00:46:34.060 CNN broadcast the video live before see that.

00:46:38.380 And in fact, you have my father talking bad words for the justice ministry to some of the people like around him in our White House.

00:46:50.240 You know what?

00:46:51.220 People loved.

00:46:53.080 People just loved.

00:46:54.900 People said, Bolsonaro just got reelected because of this video.

00:46:59.520 Because people see that this is the president that I voted for, defending people.

00:47:04.920 Come on, who judges think they are?

00:47:07.840 Who do you think the cops think they are to arrest some ladies on the beach?

00:47:11.620 I went because I remember, I remind that that day I was in Sao Paulo and I do surf.

00:47:17.080 I went to the sea to surf.

00:47:20.360 And people came to me, other surfers came to me.

00:47:23.740 Oh, Bolsonaro, because I'm also a federal congressman.

00:47:27.820 Bolsonaro, your father, he's the best.

00:47:30.620 People start to accomplish me on the water.

00:47:33.260 This is not a common.

00:47:34.080 Usually surfers, when they go to the water, maybe you can talk with one or other.

00:47:37.560 But it's not a common, you gather in the water, you know, with others.

00:47:41.040 So it was proven that Bolsonaro is the same one in front of the cameras and behind of the cameras.

00:47:48.780 That's another thing that's very interesting about the social media landscape.

00:47:52.400 I mean, I know a lot of the main players, obviously, who are pioneers, particularly in YouTube, particularly in the podcast domain.

00:48:03.600 And all the ones that I know are the same in front of the camera as they are off.

00:48:10.640 Rogan, he's a classic example of that.

00:48:13.320 I mean, you see he's the same or he's not the same?

00:48:16.120 He's exactly the same.

00:48:17.280 All of the people that are hyper popular as podcasters that I know are exactly the same on their podcasts as they are off.

00:48:26.960 There's no persona.

00:48:29.300 And part of that is that lack of professionalism.

00:48:33.120 You know, and it isn't exactly lack of professionalism.

00:48:35.360 I mean, what's happened is that as people have become more and more able to do video editing themselves, for example, they're much more video literate than they were 10 years ago.

00:48:46.560 Nowadays, you hide that.

00:48:47.580 Yeah.

00:48:47.880 Well, yeah.

00:48:49.540 People on YouTube, for example, nobody trusts edited YouTube videos because they don't trust edited.

00:48:55.420 And so you want to see the conversation unfold as it does unfold.

00:49:00.620 And I've talked with Rogan about this to some decent degree about interviewing people, you know.

00:49:09.800 And his experience, too, is that you can tell who's an empty suit after about 20 minutes, right?

00:49:17.600 Because we're having an unstructured conversation.

00:49:19.880 We both have to be able to track it, and it has to go where it's going to go, but it has to stay coherent, and it has to stay interesting, and we both have to be engaged.

00:49:28.260 And there's really just no way of staging that.

00:49:30.740 And if you try to stage it, it just falls flat.

00:49:33.940 The other thing that happens, too, we experienced this at the ARC conference in London, is that if it's politicized in a way that's ego-driven, it also fails.

00:49:45.100 So at ARC, the discussions that were more political were much less successful on YouTube and at the conference than the ones that were more philosophical and that were more direct.

00:49:59.220 So the new media landscape, I think it's partly a consequence of bandwidth.

00:50:04.460 There's no bandwidth restriction, right?

00:50:06.300 So, I mean, 20 years ago, a minute on network television was extremely expensive.

00:50:13.540 And so everything had to be crafted and edited and produced.

00:50:18.380 And now there's no bandwidth limitation whatsoever, so none of that's necessary.

00:50:22.800 And it's also the case that people have a much longer span of attention for listening than the TV types presume.

00:50:32.140 Now, they presumed that partly because they were concerned with bandwidth and trying to conserve time.

00:50:38.700 But then they kind of thought that, well, people only had a 30-second attention span.

00:50:42.800 It's like, no, it turns out that people have a three-hour attention span, no problem.

00:50:46.820 And, of course, Rogan, above all, demonstrated that.

00:50:50.460 And so, okay, and so your dad, he did the same thing that Polyev did, essentially, and maybe earlier, about the same time, really.

00:50:57.640 Because Polyev was starting to work directly to social media at that time as well.

00:51:02.720 Okay, now the leader of the Conservative Party in Canada.

00:51:05.580 All right.

00:51:05.900 Because he's the other one I know who's used social media so effectively.

00:51:10.020 And I really think that's what's going to happen.

00:51:13.420 This is a shift in the way politics is going to be conducted.

00:51:16.400 There's absolutely no reason that political leaders can't take their message directly to people with no intermediaries.

00:51:23.240 And I think that's going to be extremely beneficial.

00:51:25.520 And so, well, it worked very well for you folks.

00:51:29.540 Okay, so your father was elected president in 2018?

00:51:33.560 Yep.

00:51:33.960 And how long was he president?

00:51:36.340 Four years.

00:51:37.340 Four years.

00:51:38.240 So he was…

00:51:39.800 If I may, Professor, excuse me.

00:51:42.180 I want to open up parentheses.

00:51:43.840 Yep.

00:51:44.100 One month before the election, he also got stabbed in the belly during the campaign.

00:51:48.480 This is very important to say because he was almost killed by a former member of the Socialist and Liberty Party, PSOL.

00:51:57.740 This party in Brazil is radical left.

00:52:00.720 They are connected.

00:52:02.000 They have a lot of pictures and trips here to the U.S.

00:52:04.500 to have meetings with AOC, Bernie Sanders, and this kind of people who is the radical left part of the Democratic Party.

00:52:11.060 The name of the guy who stabbed my father, his name is Adelio Bispo.

00:52:16.020 My father was on the streets campaigning with a crowd of 20,000 or 30,000 people around him in the city of Juizifora.

00:52:25.580 One of the securities of my father put a hand on his shoulders.

00:52:28.780 So you have videos on YouTube everywhere.

00:52:32.700 And the guy came with a knife, jumped it, and stabbed my father, twisted a little bit, and the knife got into the belly of my father 15 centimeters and cutting some parts of his intestine.

00:52:45.320 At that time, in the moment that it happened, you could not see too much blood.

00:52:53.960 You can see that there was a cut, and the securities run into a hospital with him.

00:53:01.960 In the hospital, the doctors identified that he was with an internal hemorrhage.

00:53:10.040 He lost about 2.5 liters of blood.

00:53:13.620 He died twice, and he went to the surgery.

00:53:19.460 And you have a lot of these more than 2 liters of blood together with, how can I say that politely in English, with shit.

00:53:29.080 Right.

00:53:30.840 Which makes you think, oh, so for sure he had an infection after that.

00:53:35.320 Like, it's a miracle he survived.

00:53:36.680 The doctor said two more minutes on the way to the hospital, two more minutes delay, he's done.

00:53:41.620 He would be out of blood to the heart to bomb.

00:53:45.580 When he arrived in the hospital, in the emergency, he had exactly the specialist, medical specialist required for this kind of situation, which is very hairy in Brazil.

00:53:56.960 He has a gastro medical doctor for that part.

00:54:01.820 The security of my father, also, they know exactly the way to the closer's hospital.

00:54:12.160 Right, right.

00:54:12.360 So the driver was a local that knew the fastest way to arrive in the hospital.

00:54:17.860 And one day before, my father, he had a problem in the throat.

00:54:23.900 And a friend, Gilson Machado, which is our former tourism minister, he gave a medicine to my father, an antibiotic to my father.

00:54:31.840 Bolsonaro, you are feeling sick a little bit on the throat.

00:54:35.080 Yeah, but you're campaigning, you know, you cannot wait.

00:54:38.560 It becomes worse to receive an antibiotic.

00:54:43.540 Take this pill with the antibiotic.

00:54:44.680 So my father started to have antibiotic.

00:54:47.880 So this is, I think, what prevented you get infection because it's a lot of blood with feces inside of his body.

00:54:55.680 So he survived that.

00:54:56.920 But more than 70% of the time of the campaign in Brazil, we have 45 days that you can campaign.

00:55:04.420 More than 70% of the period of time, my father was in a hospital.

00:55:08.420 So he could not go to the streets, running all over the country, delivering his message to run, to do a presidential campaign.

00:55:20.040 And still, he got elected.

00:55:24.020 This is very important.

00:55:24.880 And this is also very important to say because people do a lot of, they compare with the Trump situation after the butter, the shooting case right next to his head.

00:55:36.060 And it's one more things that Trump have in common with my father.

00:55:42.680 So after that, he got elected.

00:55:43.920 And I also became the most voted ever federal representative, most voted ever federal representative in the history of Brazil.

00:55:53.420 Now, he did or you did?

00:55:55.340 I did.

00:55:55.800 You did.

00:55:56.160 I did for the Congress.

00:55:56.980 He did as president.

00:55:58.700 I received almost 2 million votes.

00:56:01.500 In my first campaign, my first election in 2014, 82,000.

00:56:07.300 2018, almost 2 million.

00:56:09.040 So it was a huge message for all of the country.

00:56:13.320 Our party became very strong.

00:56:16.220 We were in a very small party that we had only three congressmen.

00:56:20.860 After the 2018 election, we became 52.

00:56:24.840 And nowadays, after the 22 elections, we are almost 100 congressmen in my party.

00:56:32.080 So it shows that the wave is still increasing.

00:56:35.520 You know, it's not, oh, Bolsonaro lost the election and, okay, the movement is over.

00:56:40.100 No, no, no.

00:56:40.420 The movement is too strong.

00:56:42.400 And the only way that the legacy media, for example, sees to control us is controlling the narrative with the new bills against the free speech.

00:56:51.860 Right, right.

00:56:52.600 That's why free speech is so important.

00:56:53.760 Okay, so let's go to the 2022 election.

00:56:55.460 So that was, it was six, you said, just a number of days before that election that your father was just about killed.

00:57:03.000 Yeah, one month before the election of 2018.

00:57:04.840 One month.

00:57:05.380 And what was the outcome of the election at the presidential level in 2022?

00:57:10.260 Yeah, 2022, it was the election that my father wanted for re-election, but he lost.

00:57:14.640 Right, and it was a month before that that he was almost killed.

00:57:17.860 No, in 2018.

00:57:18.940 Oh, that was in, okay, sorry, it was 2018.

00:57:21.500 Forgive my ignorance.

00:57:22.600 No, no, no, that's okay.

00:57:23.680 Yeah, so, okay, so what happened in 2022?

00:57:26.700 Why did he lose the election?

00:57:28.220 Then, I have to take care about my words, because in Brazil, depending on what you talk, you can be considered anti-democratic.

00:57:40.540 To talk to the Americans here that are watching us, remember that Trump in Georgia, he was the mugshot, because he was talking about the election process.

00:57:56.040 But you have a bunch of videos of Hillary Clinton and some other people from the Democratic Party saying that they do not trust in the election.

00:58:04.300 Maybe the 2016 election wasn't 100% trustable.

00:58:09.540 But with Trump, things change.

00:58:12.160 So, with us, things change in Brazil, too.

00:58:14.800 And we have a target on our heads, so I have to take care about what I'm going to say to not have problems when I come back home.

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00:58:48.760 In 2022 elections, there are two theories.

00:58:54.220 One theory is the machines that we use to vote, because in Brazil, it's fully electronic.

00:58:59.480 You go to a machine developed by the government, and you dial the number of your candidates.

00:59:06.040 For example, the number of my father was 22.

00:59:08.200 Our party number is 22.

00:59:10.220 So, you want to vote for Bolsonaro, you dial 22 and press the green button.

00:59:15.680 That's it.

00:59:16.800 And then you pray for God that someone in the capital, the bureaucrats, are going to count your vote properly.

00:59:22.460 But you do not receive, you don't have a way to recount that.

00:59:26.900 You don't have a way to audit that.

00:59:29.420 You know, you just go home and that's it.

00:59:34.440 Pretty much like in Venezuela.

00:59:35.940 In Venezuela, they have a similar system of Brazil.

00:59:39.100 And in 2022, I'm not going to talk about...

00:59:43.520 We also have to be careful about discussing such things here, and it's more a consequence of lawsuits.

00:59:48.860 And so, I was warned before the interview started to tread very lightly on the territory that we're investigating now.

00:59:57.240 And it seems to me that, independently of the reliability and validity of the electronic voting process,

01:00:05.000 these are problems that you just don't have with paper ballots.

01:00:08.280 Because there they are, and you can recount them.

01:00:11.180 And so, you know, to give the devil his due, you can certainly understand that if electronic voting machines

01:00:18.480 had a track record that was as solid as paper, they're more efficient and can be tabulated faster.

01:00:28.280 But the truth of the matter is, we don't know anything about this new technology, right?

01:00:32.220 And you introduce a radically new technology into the process that determines your political electorate at your peril, right?

01:00:40.220 And so, conservatives know such things, unintended consequences.

01:00:44.540 Okay, so, with that side, back to the election.

01:00:47.940 I'll not talk about this theory, all right?

01:00:49.640 Let's say that our machine is 100% fully trustable.

01:00:53.080 Yeah.

01:00:53.400 Well, but still, in Brazil, who organize the elections, who coordinate the elections,

01:00:59.960 who judge everything about elections in Brazil,

01:01:02.940 is a court called Superior Electoral Court.

01:01:08.500 I will say only Electoral Court, referring myself to this court.

01:01:12.220 Who is on the head of this court?

01:01:15.060 Who is the president, the chairman of this Electoral Court?

01:01:18.380 He's a justice from the Supreme Court.

01:01:20.540 His name is Alexandre de Moraes.

01:01:22.760 On 2022, it was Alexandre de Moraes.

01:01:25.600 This is the name that I would like you to save on your mind.

01:01:28.020 Alexandre de Moraes.

01:01:28.800 This man, he has a personal problem with my father and with our family.

01:01:34.860 He did a lot of interventions in the executive power,

01:01:38.300 and sometimes even in the legislative, in the Congress.

01:01:42.320 And he was...

01:01:44.420 And this was during your father's administration.

01:01:46.520 Yes.

01:01:47.340 During my father's administration, we had a lot of conflicts with him.

01:01:50.220 So, he was on the head of this Electoral Court.

01:01:53.160 So, this Electoral Court, you had ridiculous decisions such as,

01:02:01.080 my father could not open a live streaming from his cell phone at his house.

01:02:08.840 Why they say that?

01:02:10.280 Because all the other candidates, they do not have a house,

01:02:14.540 a public house, paid with public money.

01:02:16.780 Because when you're president, you live in the White House.

01:02:19.620 Who paid the rent of the White House?

01:02:21.760 Who paid the energy and the water of the White House?

01:02:24.200 Is a taxpayer.

01:02:25.760 So, the reason that they found to avoid Jair Bolsonaro,

01:02:29.340 Jair Bolsonaro was forbidden to broadcast from his house.

01:02:32.400 So, if he would like to start live streaming from his Facebook,

01:02:36.720 he would get a car, get out of his house, and start a live streaming.

01:02:41.280 This is a point to show you to understand how ridiculous was the decision during this period of time.

01:02:46.860 And more than that, we could not say some words to define our oppositor, Lula da Silva.

01:02:55.820 There is a, the number one conservative media in Brazil is called Joven Pan.

01:03:01.300 Joven Pan, they received an order saying that they cannot referee,

01:03:05.280 the journalist of Joven Pan could not say that Lula is a criminal, is a thief,

01:03:10.220 or that he was unconvicted from the convictions that he had in the past.

01:03:15.300 Because Lula da Silva, the current president, he, the Supreme Court,

01:03:18.840 he was convicted for laundering money and corruption in the past.

01:03:22.900 But two years before the election, they overturned all of that

01:03:26.820 and let Lula da Silva run for president.

01:03:29.440 And all of the establishment was in favor of his election, very clearly.

01:03:34.580 So, this is how the election happened in Brazil.

01:03:37.480 So, I can tell you, even if you believe that our machines that we use to vote

01:03:42.740 is 100% okay, 100% trustable, it wasn't a fair election.

01:03:48.900 Because, basically...

01:03:50.240 How close was the margin?

01:03:52.320 My father made 49.1 or 2%.

01:03:56.120 Lula made 49.51.

01:03:58.460 Right, so, really split down the middle, eh?

01:04:00.840 Really, you're in the close, tight margins.

01:04:02.560 Yeah, well, any election where there's tight margins like that, it's also...

01:04:06.220 You know, you could imagine that even a well-run political system is,

01:04:09.560 what would you say, corrupt 1%.

01:04:12.300 You know, and if the margin is 1%, that makes things very awkward.

01:04:16.520 Yes, and you have some more other things that I could add.

01:04:19.160 For example, the most left-wing states that we have,

01:04:22.860 they were voting even after 5 p.m. on Sunday.

01:04:26.000 Because in our election, everybody go to vote at the same day.

01:04:30.120 The first Sunday of October, you have to vote.

01:04:33.300 From 8 a.m. until 5 p.m.

01:04:36.440 All right?

01:04:36.880 After that, it's closed.

01:04:39.200 No one else can vote anymore.

01:04:42.260 But in the states, where they have the majority in favor of the left-wing politicians,

01:04:49.780 the state of Bahia and some other states on the northeast of Brazil,

01:04:53.140 which is the major part of the Brazilians,

01:04:55.200 receive assistencialism from the government to survive.

01:04:58.620 In these states, people were voting 6, 7, 8 p.m.

01:05:02.240 And some million more votes were added in the election.

01:05:08.220 So what I can say, and I cannot prove to be very honest, professor,

01:05:12.360 what I can say is, in Brazil, the people who sit on the desks,

01:05:19.780 taking the idea of the people and letting them go vote,

01:05:23.300 most part of these people, they know each other

01:05:26.080 because they are the same people, election after election,

01:05:30.240 who are there on the school, on the sessions, on the electoral sessions,

01:05:34.800 receiving people to vote.

01:05:36.480 So if everybody is left-wing, if you do not have morals,

01:05:40.240 you are not left-wing, usually politicians are left-wing,

01:05:43.580 they do not care about values or morals,

01:05:45.680 you can say, okay, let's see in the list who did not vote yet,

01:05:50.980 and let's go vote in their names.

01:05:53.720 It can happen.

01:05:54.700 So if you stop people to vote after 5 p.m.,

01:06:01.720 as is the electoral law requiring us to be,

01:06:06.900 it will be way more transparency,

01:06:10.340 way more trustable our election.

01:06:12.520 I'm telling you that you have a lot of ways to do frauds.

01:06:17.920 All of them were used.

01:06:19.360 Okay, so let me ask you a question about that, too.

01:06:21.040 I guess, my opinion.

01:06:21.760 Well, if you looked at your father's administration over that four-year period,

01:06:29.900 that was his first foray into the presidency.

01:06:33.720 Certainly, Trump has pronounced, announced recently that, like, your father had a lot more political experience

01:06:42.680 by the time he took the presidency than Trump had.

01:06:45.020 Trump had business experience, but that's not exactly the same thing.

01:06:48.100 But I presume that your family has reviewed the inadequacies, let's say, of your father's first presidency.

01:06:58.080 What mistakes do you think were made under his leadership that might have also compromised the election?

01:07:07.420 The main thing that people comply about my father is that he talks too much.

01:07:12.420 But I mean, it's the opinion of the people.

01:07:17.380 We usually say that, okay, are you voting for president or you want a boyfriend or a girlfriend?

01:07:23.040 You know, he talks too much, but the economy is going good.

01:07:25.800 And the criminals are having a very tough time with my father.

01:07:30.940 You know, regular citizen, they are having a better life.

01:07:34.380 You have less bureaucracy.

01:07:35.480 You can take care of your life.

01:07:37.360 You know, a lot of benefits.

01:07:41.000 But the press, all the time, they are doing some kind of notorious scandal because, depending on what my father was used to say,

01:07:50.580 because he has no future, sometimes getting out of his house, he stops and starts to talk with the people,

01:07:56.580 with the press around and use non-politically correct words.

01:08:00.740 And it became a scandal, you know, in the end of the day, you can affect, talking that so much every day,

01:08:08.020 it affects, you know, people.

01:08:09.980 And maybe you change your priorities.

01:08:13.120 Well, certainly his reputation outside of, you know, I got low resolution.

01:08:18.100 The reputation outside of Brazil is bad.

01:08:19.380 If you go to Europe, people, you think that my father is the avial.

01:08:22.780 Yeah, yeah.

01:08:23.380 Well, then I would say, like...

01:08:24.920 He's burning Amazon.

01:08:26.000 He's...

01:08:26.360 Right, right.

01:08:27.180 Well, I can't say that, like, my knowledge of Brazil is shallow, certainly.

01:08:33.300 And so what that means is that whatever impressions I picked up about the Bolsonaro administration

01:08:38.340 were, like, second-hand representations from the legacy media, right?

01:08:42.660 Not even necessarily direct.

01:08:44.340 And it was certainly the case that the gut sense, I would say, of the typical North American with regards to Bolsonaro was, you know, dangerous right-winger.

01:08:55.660 So, definitely.

01:08:56.780 Now, I'm a lot more skeptical about such terminology, you know, now that I was, let's say, eight years ago or even five years ago.

01:09:04.020 But those sorts...

01:09:06.280 See, one of the problems is, is that it's very easy to tag people, right?

01:09:12.980 Because you can think about it psychologically in a manner that's appropriate.

01:09:18.960 There's a lot of people that you could listen to.

01:09:21.120 There's eight billion people you could listen to.

01:09:23.140 And so you need a reason not to listen to most people because there's just too many people.

01:09:30.100 And so if you hear something bad about someone that you don't know, it's easier just to assume, well, you can just write them off.

01:09:37.800 And it doesn't matter because there's eight billion other people to choose from, right?

01:09:40.940 So my point is, it's very easy to smear someone's reputation.

01:09:44.640 It's very easy, especially...

01:09:46.460 I think you can especially do that.

01:09:48.940 You can do that especially with disgust rather than fear.

01:09:51.940 Disgust is even more effective than fear.

01:09:55.620 And so, anyways, I mean, my impression of, for what it's worth, my impression of the Bolsonaro administration was definitely colored by the pronouncements of the legacy media that this was another far-right movement, right?

01:10:11.780 And, I mean, the same thing basically happened to Maloney in Italy and to Orban in Hungary.

01:10:19.440 And so, well, and I do think it's part and parcel of the operation of the legacy media and the sway that the progressives have over the universities and the legacy media.

01:10:32.760 It's the same thing in Brazil.

01:10:33.960 It's so interesting to see that exactly the same thing is playing out there that's playing out in the United States and Canada and all through Europe.

01:10:40.300 And that's why Brazil is important to the United States, because we are the lab.

01:10:46.080 The ideas usually come from here and they apply in Brazil.

01:10:51.240 So why Americans showed penetration in Brazil?

01:10:54.180 Because we have a unique thing when we talk about censorship.

01:10:57.040 It's because everywhere in the world, it comes through the hands of the president of the prime minister.

01:11:02.140 For example, you have big issues with Trudeau or with the C-16 law and whatever.

01:11:08.660 But in Brazil, it's the Supreme Court.

01:11:11.240 Yeah, yeah.

01:11:11.560 So we can delve into that.

01:11:12.740 Now, this gentleman that you talked about, the Supreme Court.

01:11:16.580 Alexandre de Moraes.

01:11:17.600 Now, is he the same one?

01:11:19.160 Again, I'm exposing my ignorance here, so forgive me.

01:11:21.960 Is he the same one who's at odds with Musk?

01:11:25.540 Yes.

01:11:25.720 Okay, so it is this.

01:11:26.620 Okay, that's what I assume.

01:11:27.700 I just want to make sure that that.

01:11:29.820 Okay, so why don't you unravel that story for us?

01:11:32.420 You started going down that road and said that.

01:11:36.400 Yeah.

01:11:36.600 Okay, so what role is the Supreme Court playing in Brazil at the moment?

01:11:41.720 And why is it that Musk got embroiled in a, well, in this very, very public, international public, internationally public argument with, well, with the Brazilian Supreme Court?

01:11:51.900 Explain that.

01:11:53.460 Alexandre de Moraes, he was the chairman of the electoral court and he was too aggressive in the 2022 elections, mainly.

01:12:00.560 In the 2022 elections, what happened?

01:12:04.180 Around 100 conservative profiles on Twitter got blocked.

01:12:09.840 To be blocked in Brazil, our law says that you need to give to the other side, to the users, the right to defend himself.

01:12:18.340 And the platform has 48 hours to block someone.

01:12:24.420 This is general law in Brazil.

01:12:27.260 What was happening in Brazil is Alexandre de Moraes was ordering Twitter and some other platforms, I guess, because I'm not that dumb to think it was happening only with Twitter.

01:12:38.780 Right, right, right.

01:12:39.680 So he was addressing orders to Twitter saying, block this and that people in one hour.

01:12:49.180 If you don't do that, I will fine you.

01:12:52.880 And it was, I can tell you, around $20,000, $30,000 to start.

01:13:01.160 But it was a huge fine, you know, daily, daily, if you do not accomplish with his orders.

01:13:07.360 But the main thing is, Alexandre de Moraes ordered, according with Glenn Greenwald, the journalist, articles that came up a couple of months ago.

01:13:19.720 Alexandre de Moraes was saying to Twitter platform, do not tell the users that are getting blocked that this order is coming from me.

01:13:30.680 Oh, yeah.

01:13:32.060 This is key because during 2022 elections, Brazilians got to piss it off with Twitter because you get your cell phone and then there is a black screen saying you were blocked because you violated one of our internal policies.

01:13:47.940 Sure, sure.

01:13:49.160 And then you say, but what post did I do that makes me be blocked in the platform?

01:13:55.220 You don't know.

01:13:55.900 These are the candidates you're speaking of?

01:13:57.840 No, everybody in general.

01:13:58.640 So this was happening quite broadly?

01:14:00.680 You have candidates, you have regular people, you have influencers, you have YouTubers like Luciano Hangi, for example, who is a very strong supporter of my father.

01:14:10.760 He's a billionaire.

01:14:11.860 He got blocked in this situation.

01:14:14.500 So you are getting outside.

01:14:16.300 Imagine in the United States, you are going to run for president and you cannot see what Tucker Carlson, Jordan Peterson, Joe Rogan, what they are posting or producing on their platforms.

01:14:26.420 This was the situation in Brazil.

01:14:28.760 Right.

01:14:29.420 So I'm adding one more factor.

01:14:30.280 Well, they blocked Trump, too, when he was president.

01:14:32.800 So that's quite remarkable.

01:14:34.220 Yes.

01:14:34.660 Yeah.

01:14:34.980 And Elon, he bought Twitter right between the first and the second round of the Brazilian election in October of 2022.

01:14:43.120 That's why we know all of that nowadays.

01:14:47.180 Right, right.

01:14:47.780 One year ago, we would be still pissed off his Twitter.

01:14:51.140 Right.

01:14:51.440 But why?

01:14:52.460 Elon Musk started a fight, I don't know, months ago with Alexandre de Moraes.

01:14:59.700 Alexandre de Moraes, he has, he's the justice of the Supreme Court, he has a Twitter account.

01:15:05.080 And he was talking about something, posting his opinion or whatever about something.

01:15:09.800 And then Elon come and commented, why are you demanding so much censorship in Brazil?

01:15:16.700 Oh, yeah.

01:15:17.560 Boom.

01:15:18.260 Then things start.

01:15:19.120 But the chairman of the Justice Committee of the House of the U.S. Congress, Mr. Jim Jordan, he asked Elon Musk to give all the emails changed with the Brazilian authorities during the 2022 election period of time.

01:15:38.660 Oh, yeah.

01:15:39.100 With these emails, now that we know, after the report of Jim Jordan in the U.S. Congress, if you have around 500 pages in this report, you'll know that Alexandre de Moraes, now, I mean, the electoral court was sending emails to Twitter saying to block people.

01:15:57.900 And some of the people, and some of the people, for example, the journalist, Paulo Figueiredo, he only knew why he was blocked in 2022 looking to these, to these reports.

01:16:09.360 So this is the level of censorship that we had.

01:16:11.840 And this is the problem because this is not only about Brazil.

01:16:15.520 Oh, that's for sure.

01:16:16.800 Oh, that's for sure.

01:16:17.180 The authorities, Alexandre de Moraes and some other authorities of Brazil, they do speeches in Paris, in London, in New York.

01:16:24.980 They are spreading the virus.

01:16:27.160 And you have some press articles saying that some of the European authority, they were looking closely, this fight between Alexandre de Moraes and Elon Musk to copy to Europe.

01:16:40.040 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:16:41.120 Because what happened, now I would talk with the Americans that don't know this story deeply.

01:16:45.800 I'm talking about Twitter, Elon Musk against Alexandre de Moraes, right?

01:16:50.380 Well, there was a top EU official whose name escapes me at the moment, unfortunately, who complained, although apparently not with the full authority of the EU, about the fact that Musk was talking to Trump.

01:17:06.280 Come on, again?

01:17:06.720 That he complained using his EU…

01:17:11.180 A Brazilian one?

01:17:12.040 No, no, you're an EU, an EU representative.

01:17:15.640 Unfortunately, I can't remember his name.

01:17:17.600 We'll put it in the notes.

01:17:19.240 But he complained that Musk was talking to Trump, right?

01:17:24.900 What is the crime in that?

01:17:26.420 What is the crime?

01:17:26.860 The House of Representatives in the US actually wrote a response letter.

01:17:33.320 And I think it was Jim Jordan who signed it, telling him to really mind his own bloody business, as he should have.

01:17:41.320 And the EU, to their credit, did separate themselves technically from him.

01:17:46.040 Although, you know, I don't know the entire background of the story.

01:17:50.000 But the reason I'm bringing it up is because it lends credence to your claim that the EU bureaucrats, who are not the least bit happy with Elon Musk, and the same thing could be said about the UK, especially the Labour Party there, right?

01:18:04.140 They're definitely Musk's enemies and will do whatever they need to, to stop him.

01:18:09.480 And so, and that is being played out in Brazil.

01:18:12.360 That's, you know, that's part of the reason why I think this podcast should be of broad interest to, well, to the international community.

01:18:19.440 Because they're saying, because as Brazil, we have this special case because the censorship is coming through the hands of one of the justices of the Supreme Court.

01:18:26.320 And also, Alexandre Moraes fined Twitter, and the first response of Twitter is that they're not going to pay this fine.

01:18:35.480 But after one month, they paid to get back again Twitter in Brazil because they were banned.

01:18:42.520 So, the Europeans' authorities, like the woke people, the progressives, they were enjoying that.

01:18:49.820 I thought, wait a minute, so if we do that through the hands of the courts, maybe we can control Elon Musk, you know, and force them to censorship whoever I want.

01:18:59.640 Yeah.

01:19:00.080 So, this is the point.

01:19:01.320 And what I would say that was shocking is that, to do that, Alexandre Moraes not only banned Twitter, he threatened to arrest the Twitter team in Brazil.

01:19:11.360 Right, right, yes, I remember that.

01:19:12.620 So, that's why thanks, President of Argentina, Javier Millet, he offered asylum to this kind of people.

01:19:19.620 They said, publicly, through Twitter, if the Brazilians want to come to Argentina, they are more than welcome.

01:19:26.120 Because here, we do preserve the freedom and the free speech and all of that.

01:19:31.180 So, thank you, Javier Millet, the greatest President of Latin America by far.

01:19:35.160 And the second thing is, Alexandre Moraes freezed some of the resources of Starlink.

01:19:44.640 Yes, well, yes.

01:19:45.840 But Starlink wasn't in the dispute.

01:19:46.840 So, the Europeans are toying with that, too.

01:19:50.260 I've looked at some of their background legislation and the fine structures, Canada is playing with this, too, by the way, under the auspices of a bill called C-63,

01:20:00.040 which is the most totalitarian piece of legislation I've ever seen written in the West by a large margin, way worse than nefarious Bill C-16.

01:20:09.840 That was just the warm-up.

01:20:11.720 In any case, the fines that are being proposed in Bill C-63, which I imagine will be somewhat of a template for the impending war against Musk,

01:20:22.680 involve percentages of company revenue worldwide.

01:20:27.080 Like, I think in the Canadian bill, it's 6% of company revenue worldwide per day.

01:20:33.380 Revenue, not profit, revenue.

01:20:35.720 Well, and then the question is, well, is it X revenue or is it X revenue and Starlink revenue and Tesla revenue?

01:20:43.000 And, well, you can be certain that that'll be interpreted in the most liberal manner possible.

01:20:47.620 Because Elon is not the owner of Starlink.

01:20:49.340 He has, I guess, 42% of the company.

01:20:51.580 But he's not the owner.

01:20:53.240 You have way other people around in the same company.

01:20:57.640 Details, details, details.

01:20:59.540 You know.

01:21:00.220 And Bill Wackman, some other billionaires, they start to complain, wait, wait, wait.

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01:22:33.580 This thing of the Brazilian Supreme Court is too far.

01:22:40.120 You know, it's too much power on only one person's hands, and it can be very dangerous.

01:22:47.740 Because we know how dictatorship starts, and when they start, usually they have support of part of the people.

01:22:52.780 But on the next day, the supporters will be the target of the dictator.

01:22:57.060 That's for sure.

01:22:58.240 In all the dictatorships, it happens.

01:23:00.620 Yeah.

01:23:00.840 And this is one of the things that are happening in this dispute with Twitter.

01:23:07.840 And that's also why the U.S. Congress, they are giving their attention to Brazil.

01:23:12.660 And nowadays, we have a bill from the representative Maria Ovira Salazar from Florida.

01:23:18.980 It was approved in the committees of the House and is ready to be voted from the House.

01:23:25.260 We only need the chairman, Mike Johnson, to put that to be voted.

01:23:29.840 And this bill says that if any foreign authority do not respect the First Amendment of an American citizen outside of U.S., they will lose their visa to come to U.S.

01:23:45.940 The country?

01:23:46.500 Yeah, for example, if a Brazilian authority do not respect the free speech of Elon Musk or any other American, he is not able to come into and enter the United States.

01:23:59.200 He will lose his visa.

01:24:00.220 So this bill, we hope that is going to be approved in the House, because after that, I'm sure that the U.S. administration, even more with Trump, I'm always supporting Trump, that it can be fully applied.

01:24:18.760 It's a way to avoid this kind of authority, because they have too much power.

01:24:24.720 They are doing whatever they want, even with American companies.

01:24:27.860 And come on, Twitter is following all of the American and U.S. law.

01:24:32.440 Why?

01:24:33.840 Brazilians are, the Brazilian Supreme Court is banning Twitter outside of Brazil.

01:24:38.840 So it's a way to force people to respect the law.

01:24:41.960 If the Brazilian authorities, if they were respecting the law.

01:24:46.440 Well, the war, you know, the war is really going to be, so Americans arguably have the most potent protection for free speech rights in the world.

01:24:56.160 I think that's a reasonable thing to say.

01:24:57.720 I mean, countries like Britain, European countries, there's a tradition of free speech, but it's really, our free speech protections in Canada are very weak by comparison.

01:25:07.500 Very weak, and that's certainly been demonstrated in recent years.

01:25:10.280 We have a charter of rights, but it's got so many loopholes in it that, and administratively and technically that, I mean, should I say it's not worth the paper it's written on?

01:25:22.640 I'd probably say that.

01:25:24.000 In any case, that's not the case in the U.S., because the right to free speech is extremely well protected.

01:25:30.420 And so what we're going to see really is like a war in cyberspace between the principles of American law fundamentally and the principles that govern the rest of the world.

01:25:42.840 Because the American social media companies dominate, and they run, especially acts, on the principle of free speech.

01:25:49.960 And so that's another reason why the situation in Brazil and in the European Union is so incredibly important.

01:25:55.640 Now, this Supreme Court official, how does he derive his power?

01:26:00.400 How long is he in office?

01:26:02.180 Like, where does he get his legitimacy and his authority?

01:26:05.640 And how is he regarded by Brazilians?

01:26:08.660 When they are appointed for the Supreme Court, the president appoints the candidate for the Supreme Court,

01:26:14.820 and the Senate, after a sabbatin, approved the name of the person.

01:26:20.160 So, in 2017, Alexandre de Moraes took office in the Supreme Court as a justice of the Supreme Court,

01:26:26.940 and he will stay there until he completes 75 years old.

01:26:31.440 So, by the year of 2040-something, he will retire.

01:26:37.420 I see.

01:26:37.920 Unless he wants to resign.

01:26:39.780 Right.

01:26:40.080 But who can stop him?

01:26:42.040 And under what administration was he appointed?

01:26:44.900 Before my father.

01:26:46.360 The one immediately before your father?

01:26:47.900 And the curious thing is, it wasn't a radical left president.

01:26:53.280 It was pretty much a central right president, Michel Temer, who appointed him.

01:26:58.540 No one would expect Alexandre de Moraes would do things like he's doing nowadays.

01:27:02.820 I see.

01:27:03.140 It's a surprise for everybody.

01:27:03.800 And how do you explain it?

01:27:06.480 It's establishment.

01:27:07.480 His mission was to take Bolsonaro out of power and end with this spontaneous movement created not only by my father,

01:27:19.400 because my father is the political leader of this right-wing conservative movement,

01:27:23.220 but on the philosophy part, you have other key men that, unfortunately, last year passed away, Professor Olavo de Carvalho.

01:27:32.780 I don't know if you've never listened about him.

01:27:34.480 He was used to live in Virginia.

01:27:36.920 Several books, very smart.

01:27:39.180 And he is the one who, on the philosophy side, was giving the arguments and also forming new leaders to be on key positions in Brazil

01:27:52.480 to sustain this right, not right-wing movement, but this movement in favor of the morals, in favor of the honesty and what...

01:28:02.480 Well, we can call it conservative.

01:28:03.820 Yes, yes, you can call him as a conservative.

01:28:07.120 So it was Olavo de Carvalho on the philosophy side and my father on the political side,

01:28:11.880 converging to the same target, if I can say that.

01:28:16.960 So the willing of, as I can see, of Alexandre de Moraes is to end with this movement leaded by my father.

01:28:26.780 Right, right.

01:28:27.640 Now, so is that, do you think that that's partly an attack on the social media structures that your family used so effectively in your movement to power?

01:28:38.580 Is it, like, is it a reaction by the legacy establishment against the emergence of social media dominance?

01:28:46.320 Sure, yes, because if you do not have social media anymore, the monopoly of information will go back against the mainstream media.

01:28:55.520 Well, and of course, all the legacy media want that.

01:28:57.640 Well, it's not surprising that the powers that be on the establishment side, so to speak,

01:29:03.940 even for reasons of mere self-preservation, regard Musk as a threat, because he is a threat.

01:29:10.260 I mean, his stated goal for X is to make it the predominant source of information in the world, right?

01:29:16.380 I mean, he'd like to supplant YouTube, and if YouTube continues to muck about the way they have been, they're so full of snivelly tricks that it's just beyond belief.

01:29:25.500 I mean, they shadow banned the Musk or the Rogan-Trump discussion this week, because they play around with the search algorithms.

01:29:33.900 They did that to me.

01:29:35.120 Yes.

01:29:35.680 And they're so sneaky about it.

01:29:37.120 For example, they blocked, so there's an autofill that people use to find new videos, and for a long time, they blocked the autofill on the name Peterson.

01:29:46.360 And it took us like six months to figure that out, because my viewership was declining.

01:29:50.680 We couldn't figure out why.

01:29:51.720 It's like, oh, they mucked about with the autofill.

01:29:54.460 Isn't that unbelievably devious?

01:29:56.700 It's, you know, and so anyways, Musk obviously wants to make X into, well, a one-stop media platform, and he's pretty blunt and blatant in his ambitions, and it's working.

01:30:08.520 I mean, X is the number one news center in the world now, and it's just getting going, because X doesn't do a great job yet of video sharing and that sort of thing.

01:30:17.880 It's not got everything YouTube has yet, but if I had to bet on a company, and it was Google versus Musk, I'd bet on Musk, like, no, hands down.

01:30:30.620 Definitely, because Google's tangled themselves up in this corporate idiocracy, and it's been that way for about eight years.

01:30:37.420 But you see, you are right.

01:30:39.000 Sorry, Professor.

01:30:39.500 No, no.

01:30:40.000 You are right.

01:30:40.740 But shadow ban would not be a problem if you have other companies on social media, alternative companies.

01:30:50.340 The problem is, in Brazil, Rumble is not in Brazil.

01:30:53.740 See?

01:30:54.900 They left Brazil after they did not accomplish some of the orders of Alexandre de Moraes.

01:31:00.280 They said, I'm out.

01:31:01.280 Oh, yeah.

01:31:01.600 I cannot survive in a country where they do not have free speech, because free speech is a value that we care here in Rumble.

01:31:06.480 So they left the country, just like X left a little bit after Rumble.

01:31:12.840 And YouTube is the way that you were talking.

01:31:17.820 Shadow ban, doing this, doing that, reducing the voice of the conservatives.

01:31:22.180 And sometimes you watch a Trump video, and then the suggested of the next video is a video of Hillary Clinton talking some things.

01:31:29.500 Yeah.

01:31:29.720 But if you have the freedom to have new social media, it will be okay.

01:31:38.700 Then I have to talk again.

01:31:40.580 Remember when Trump was kicked out from Twitter in January of 2021?

01:31:45.720 I don't know if it happened here, it also happened in North America.

01:31:49.680 But in Brazil, people start to run to two other platforms, Parler and Getter.

01:31:54.460 Getter, the CEO of Getter is Mr. Jason Miller, who is together with Trump taking care of the market of his campaign, helping Trump in his campaign.

01:32:04.960 Jason Miller, in 2021, went to Brazil to do a speech in the CPEC Brazil.

01:32:10.820 I do organize the CPEC in Brazil.

01:32:12.380 It's the largest gathering of the conservatives all around the world.

01:32:15.680 We have the Brazilian version.

01:32:17.100 Right, right.

01:32:17.640 After doing his speech, he went back to the airport.

01:32:21.340 And guess what?

01:32:22.420 Alexandre de Moraes ordered the federal police to go there and detain Jason Miller.

01:32:28.240 Jason Miller, an American citizen, stayed almost four hours in a Brazilian airport because the federal police officers wanted him to sign some papers written in Portuguese.

01:32:41.060 He said, I don't know Portuguese.

01:32:42.540 What is written there?

01:32:43.340 They called someone from the street to do the translation.

01:32:47.380 And Jason Miller said, am I under investigation?

01:32:50.700 Am I a testimony?

01:32:52.180 What is going on here?

01:32:53.680 So after some time, a lawyer come, helped Jason Miller.

01:32:58.360 He didn't sign nothing, but it was embarrassing, this situation.

01:33:02.800 So Alexandre de Moraes, he has a personal fight against Elon Musk and against Jason Miller.

01:33:09.300 Two people that are pretty close of Trump.

01:33:14.220 So maybe Alexandre de Moraes is having a conflict with really big guys.

01:33:20.460 Because when you affect a billionaire like Elon Musk, some other billionaires are going to talk about it and have an idea that Alexandre de Moraes is not fighting to preserve democracy,

01:33:30.720 but truly doing the opposite of that.

01:33:33.520 killing democracy because to preserve it, if to preserve our constitution, you need to violate the constitution if you're not preserving any constitution anymore.

01:33:44.360 And I think this is getting clearer and clearer to all of the rest of the world.

01:33:48.500 So I expect here, Professor, in the great audience that you have in your podcast, to prevent our friends from Europe, Latin America, North America,

01:33:58.820 to not copy the model of Brazilian censorship.

01:34:03.900 Well, we're going to see that play out over the next couple of years, that's for sure.

01:34:08.100 Yeah, and it's a tight struggle.

01:34:10.280 I mean, the new, this new Canadian legislation, Bill C-63, it's the most, it's so, it's so devious.

01:34:20.460 How is that?

01:34:21.440 Because the beginning of the legislation and the end are all about protecting children from sexual exploitation online, right?

01:34:28.000 And so, it's a long bill.

01:34:30.900 Well, who, you're opposed to stopping children from being exploited online?

01:34:35.180 Sure.

01:34:35.520 You oppose Bill C-63, it's like, yeah, because I actually read it and I saw exactly what you did.

01:34:42.640 It's like, all your lovely moralizing at the beginning and all your lovely moralizing at the end.

01:34:47.340 And this unbelievable totalitarian proclivity in the middle, it's just beyond comprehension.

01:34:52.800 And so, online harms bill.

01:34:56.980 And you can see, like, it's got to be something, because it's happening everywhere,

01:35:00.680 it's got to be something like the reaction of the legacy communication systems against the new technologies.

01:35:06.800 It's something, it's no wonder, right?

01:35:08.300 Because YouTube, free video, universally distributable and permanent,

01:35:16.520 is a technological revolution larger than the Gutenberg printing press, I think.

01:35:21.380 Because the Gutenberg printing press obviously spread literacy everywhere, that, and the Protestants spread literacy everywhere.

01:35:30.360 But even with that, reading was still a minority occupation, right?

01:35:37.640 I think 2% of people buy hardcover books, right?

01:35:40.560 And most hardcover books that are bought, I don't think are read.

01:35:43.500 And so, people read, but a minority of people read most of the books, but way more people can listen.

01:35:50.560 Like, it's got to be.

01:35:51.520 I know with my books, at least half of them now are audio, right?

01:35:55.960 And that's the case across the book market in general.

01:35:59.140 But I prefer listen than read.

01:36:00.520 Well, many people do.

01:36:02.420 There's a bunch of...

01:36:03.880 It's more practical.

01:36:04.840 Yeah, well, one of the advantages is everyone can listen.

01:36:08.880 So, that's a big advantage, you know, because you have to be a highly skilled and literate person to really enjoy reading.

01:36:15.620 And, you know, maybe that's 30% of the population, but it's not much more than that, I wouldn't say.

01:36:20.580 But listening, man, everybody can do that, and you can do it when you're doing other things.

01:36:25.540 And so, it's made...

01:36:27.640 It's absolutely revolutionary.

01:36:29.600 I knew YouTube was revolutionary back when it first came out, I thought.

01:36:34.180 Permanent, universally accessible video.

01:36:36.560 Oh, oh, this changes, this changes absolutely everything.

01:36:41.520 And that's what's playing out, right?

01:36:43.440 It is, we have this shifting landscape now where the information intermediaries are now obsolete.

01:36:50.800 Well, it's no wonder they're annoyed by that.

01:36:52.840 All the legacy journalists, like, we don't need you.

01:36:55.920 In fact, you're in the way.

01:36:57.460 All the legacy broadcasters, it's like broadcasting technology is 20 years out of date.

01:37:02.340 You know, and Musk recently called for the Americans to take broadcast, so the, like, CBS and NBC own, have rights to the electromagnetic spectrum that they use to broadcast their channels.

01:37:19.580 Well, Musk proposed two weeks ago that that just be taken from them because they have an obligation, a legal obligation, to tell both sides of the story, which they certainly aren't doing.

01:37:32.660 And they don't own that portion of the electromagnetic spectrum.

01:37:36.800 And so he thinks it should just be turned over to the tech companies who would make much more efficient use of it.

01:37:41.560 And the legacy media companies can be cable like everyone else.

01:37:46.000 And that's going to happen because there's no reason for them to have that monopoly anymore.

01:37:50.300 So it's not surprising that there's this immense reaction.

01:37:53.640 Like, it's broader than the mere antipathy of the left wing to your family.

01:37:59.180 And that's partly why it's happening everywhere, right?

01:38:01.680 Because it's Brazil, it's the same story in Canada, it's the same story in the U.S., the same thing is playing out in Europe and in Australia.

01:38:08.160 So you know that there's something really fundamental going on, and part of it is definitely this technological shift.

01:38:14.100 And then the other thing that's strange about that, too, and this is where your family is more integrally involved, is that you guys were early adopters of the new media.

01:38:23.060 And that was revolutionary, right?

01:38:25.240 And so there's two reasons to be terrified of it, right?

01:38:28.840 Not only is the legacy media purveyors dead and that whole system of influence archaic, but it's also empowering a whole new crop of political types who are speaking directly to the people.

01:38:43.920 Yeah, well, God only knows what that's going to do.

01:38:46.420 I mean, Trump's team figured that out in this election.

01:38:48.580 And Trump has been on, I think this is because of the influence of his son, Barron, who, from my understanding, knows, because he's young enough, he knows the new media landscape.

01:38:59.100 And so I have reason to believe that he's been recommending the podcast hosts that Trump has appeared on, you know, people like Theo Vaughn, for example, and who wouldn't be an obvious for, Vaughn's a great interviewer, and I like him, and he's super smart.

01:39:14.920 But it's quite surprising that Trump went on Theo Vaughn's show, and he did, and Rogan as well.

01:39:20.660 And that was another demonstration that the legacy media, and they're done.

01:39:24.200 I think Rogan was almost 50 million people.

01:39:26.860 Yeah, despite the shadow ban.

01:39:28.980 Yeah.

01:39:29.340 Right, I saw today, Kamala Harris used, Kamala, there's some way you're supposed to say that if you're like an acceptable person, but I'm in Northern Albertan and we can't talk.

01:39:38.420 So her, she did a fairly popular podcast, and it's got 745,000 views compared to 50 million.

01:39:47.980 And I think it's also because the people who are following Trump don't follow the legacy media, whereas the people who are supporting Harris do follow the legacy media.

01:39:58.600 So, of course, Trump's views are going to stack up because all of those people, all the Republicans in the United States, virtually, all of them distrust the legacy media.

01:40:07.700 And so, they're on the cutting edge in that regard.

01:40:10.800 I think for the first time in history here in the U.S., people trust more in the Congress than the mainstream media.

01:40:17.720 And you know things are bad, and that happens.

01:40:19.820 I don't know the source.

01:40:21.800 I have a friend, he's a journalist here, and he told me, I do not remember the source, but he said, this is fantastic.

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01:41:33.980 In Brazil, we have a lot of people that still believe and follow our legacy media over there, but the numbers of this credibility is going down.

01:41:47.060 Yeah, yeah, well, and the same thing is happening in Europe.

01:41:49.520 The legacy media is still comparatively dominant in the UK, less in the UK than in Europe, still very dominant in Europe, but that's going to change because it has to.

01:42:00.600 You can't compete with free, right?

01:42:04.180 There's just no way that the broadcast networks can survive because their economic model has been demolished.

01:42:09.820 And they don't know how to do it.

01:42:11.300 No, they're used to control the narrative and they don't know how to do it.

01:42:15.580 No, I know.

01:42:16.060 It's so funny.

01:42:16.820 So CBC is the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.

01:42:19.540 They have a YouTube channel.

01:42:21.260 Well, you can't post comments.

01:42:23.820 So it's like, that's a no-no, guys.

01:42:26.060 The YouTube ecosystem demands that people post comments.

01:42:29.840 So you've already made a colossal error in your arrogance.

01:42:32.680 I looked recently, CBC posts, the programming that it broadcasts also on YouTube, the last 20 posts that they made, each got less than 100 views.

01:42:47.500 100 views.

01:42:49.000 $1.4 billion in government subsidy a year and another $600 million in advertising.

01:42:54.520 $2 billion a year for posts on YouTube that are getting less than 100 views.

01:42:59.760 That means that even all the actors didn't watch it.

01:43:03.240 You have to fire all the crew, all the time.

01:43:05.820 Yeah, yeah.

01:43:06.260 Well, that's Paulyev's plan.

01:43:08.120 He said he's going to stop the government subsidy of media in Canada.

01:43:13.500 God, I hope he does it because it's really quite preposterous.

01:43:16.700 Okay, we should talk about the future.

01:43:19.380 So tell me about your future and about your father's future and where the political landscape is headed in Brazil

01:43:27.220 and also what's going to happen with the Supreme Court.

01:43:30.680 And, like, are the Supreme Court decisions popular in Brazil?

01:43:34.960 No.

01:43:36.180 Okay.

01:43:36.820 But who could stop the Supreme Court is the Senate.

01:43:40.600 But the chairman of the Senate, he already said, Rodrigo Pacheco,

01:43:44.400 that he will not start an impeachment procedement against any of the justices of the Supreme Court.

01:43:50.380 So the justices of the Supreme Court, they are really comfortable because despite this constitutional tool

01:43:56.220 that we could start an impeachment procedement against one of the justices, you don't have what to do.

01:44:03.380 That's why we run to the United States and are providing information for U.S. authorities trying to help us down there in Brazil.

01:44:12.760 Also mainly because what is happening in Brazil with the support of Lula da Silva, the president,

01:44:18.700 is an attack not only against Elon Musk, but against American companies and not only Starlink and NX,

01:44:27.420 but also against the Constitution of the United States, the First Amendment.

01:44:31.040 And thanks God, we are having a good interaction, a good relationship, not only with Gene Jordan,

01:44:38.100 with Mario Vida Salazar, Chris Smith, Richard McCormick, and some other players, Mike Lee, Marco Rubio, Rick Scott.

01:44:46.800 And for the first time in history, I think we are very well connected with the American politicians.

01:44:51.900 How did that happen?

01:44:52.700 I have to tell you that I come here very often to the United States, opening these doors.

01:45:01.080 It's not only because of me, okay, we have more people involved, but I hard work in that.

01:45:06.720 I do not care, get a plane, fly economy class, come here to have one meeting and come back to Brazil.

01:45:11.480 I did that several times, and that's how we know one and another, and now they are very polite, very smart.

01:45:20.380 They know the situation of Brazil, and they are taking some actions here.

01:45:23.880 We had a hearing in the U.S. Congress, in the Human Rights Committee, with Chris Smith,

01:45:30.340 inviting the owner of Rubble, Mr. Pavlovsky, with Paulo Figueiredo, to debate the censorship in Brazil,

01:45:39.440 trying to prevent the U.S. and trying to help Brazilians that are victims of the censorship.

01:45:46.400 So in the future, I think we can do much more pressure coming from the international community,

01:45:52.900 not only U.S., because they also talked about how great is the president of Argentina, Javier Millet,

01:45:58.120 who is a libertarian, and we can help Brazil in this way, because with the globalization, everybody is connected.

01:46:06.140 Yes.

01:46:06.560 You know, it's not only about Brazil.

01:46:08.820 Well, as you can tell, because the political issues are the same regardless of the country, right?

01:46:13.520 The same thing is happening everywhere, and it is certainly in no small part because we're so hyper-connected.

01:46:20.400 And that also means that warfare is going to change dramatically.

01:46:25.800 And what's happening in Brazil, this dispute between the Supreme Court official and Musk,

01:46:32.580 that is a reflection of a new kind of information warfare, right?

01:46:37.520 And it's definitely the First Amendment versus everything else in a very deep way, right?

01:46:43.560 Okay, so you've fostered relationships in the U.S.

01:46:47.040 And so that's so interesting because the case that you're making is that you can understand why the Senate in Brazil would be loath to begin impeachment proceedings against a Supreme Court justice.

01:46:56.960 Because when one branch of the government starts to go to war against another branch, there's real trouble there.

01:47:03.300 So I can imagine why they're stepping carefully.

01:47:05.820 I'm not justifying it.

01:47:07.020 I just would say that that is something that you want to do very, very carefully.

01:47:12.020 But it's very interesting that the pressure is actually being mounted more effectively through the U.S. and internationally than within Brazil itself.

01:47:22.460 What about the typical Brazilian?

01:47:25.720 I mean, all the people that were supporting your father, for example, what's happening with them now?

01:47:31.100 And that'll be our segue, I guess, into a discussion of what you think is going to happen in the future in Brazil.

01:47:36.980 When's the next election?

01:47:38.420 In 2026.

01:47:39.640 26, okay.

01:47:40.460 We had an election this year, but it's a municipal election where we did great.

01:47:45.380 Like the number of mayors and city councils that we have, like almost half of Brazil in the capital of the states,

01:47:53.500 the most voted city council is from my party, from our party.

01:47:57.760 Oh, yeah.

01:47:58.460 Oh, that's a big deal to have control, to have influence at the local level.

01:48:02.980 Yes.

01:48:03.320 Yeah, yeah, that's a big deal.

01:48:04.380 No, it increased a lot.

01:48:05.320 It was great this election for Brazil.

01:48:07.140 My father, he went for more than 140 cities.

01:48:12.340 And on the other path, Lula da Silva almost didn't go to be part of this election.

01:48:18.160 He was in Mexico.

01:48:19.640 He was traveling and not really campaigning for people from his party.

01:48:24.080 And even the mayors, the candidate of the laborer's party, some of them, they didn't want Lula da Silva at the same stage of them,

01:48:30.160 which means that his credibility is going low, going down.

01:48:33.260 Right, right, right.

01:48:33.820 So it was great to us.

01:48:35.260 We will have elections in 2026.

01:48:37.900 Nowadays, my father cannot run because the electoral court, with Mr. Alexandre de Moraes on the head,

01:48:44.260 decided that he had a meeting with ambassadors when he was president, and he criticized the electoral process of Brazil.

01:48:53.840 This was anti-democratic, so they said that my father is convicted.

01:48:59.480 Eight years, we thought, cannot run with no political rights.

01:49:03.220 Really?

01:49:03.480 So for 80 years, my father cannot run.

01:49:06.180 How can we have the expectation in 2026 he can go back and run again?

01:49:12.060 Because this electoral court is made by seven judges, three coming from the Supreme Court.

01:49:19.580 And as I told you, Alexandre de Moraes was on the head.

01:49:23.080 In 2026, Alexandre de Moraes, he will not be in the electoral court anymore.

01:49:27.660 Who will be the chairman of the next election?

01:49:30.040 It will be Cassio Nunes, who is a justice from the Supreme Court appointed by my father.

01:49:35.460 And the vice chair of the electoral court in 2026 will be André Mendoza, who is other justice of the Supreme Court appointed by my father.

01:49:45.140 So we have an expectation, not that they are going to work in favor of my father,

01:49:51.680 but you have a way more balanced court to analyze and judge everything.

01:49:57.400 And they can have the opportunity to really work for a more transparent and more integrity election.

01:50:05.680 So do you think there is, I believe you're implying that there is some possibility that your father will be in a position to run again.

01:50:13.060 You're not certain of that, but you think it's a possibility.

01:50:15.300 I think so.

01:50:16.040 Lula was in jail two years before the election.

01:50:18.920 Supreme Court let him go free.

01:50:20.720 So, you know, Lula, they annulled all of his conviction.

01:50:25.640 He was convicted for laundering money and corruption.

01:50:29.020 They said, oh, no, no, Lula would never be sued in the city of Curitiba.

01:50:34.480 He would be sued in Sao Paulo or Brasilia.

01:50:37.040 That's why they canceled all the convictions, the condemnation that he had.

01:50:46.320 So he got back again.

01:50:48.680 Lula, he's clean again.

01:50:49.860 And that's how he was able to run on 2022.

01:50:53.780 If it happened with a convicted fellow, convicted criminal,

01:50:58.220 why cannot happen with my father who is guilty because he had a meeting with ambassadors?

01:51:03.100 Are you afraid for your father and for yourself?

01:51:07.600 We think that he can go to jail in this kind of atmosphere and scenario.

01:51:14.060 What about more intense threats?

01:51:16.220 Because he was already, as you pointed out, just about assassinated.

01:51:19.820 So what, like, what?

01:51:21.680 He don't care to be assassinated.

01:51:23.920 Think with our enemy's head.

01:51:26.120 If you send him to jail, they will attract even more attention of the international community.

01:51:31.380 Yeah, yeah, definitely.

01:51:32.040 My father, he probably, he'll write a book.

01:51:36.060 He'll have kind of communication outside of the jail, maybe between his lawyers.

01:51:39.840 I don't know.

01:51:40.620 But everybody always, like in a Rocky Balboa movie,

01:51:43.980 everybody cheers for the one who is receiving all of these unfair convictions.

01:51:51.740 You know, we always stay on the side of the victim.

01:51:55.060 If you kill my father, he's going to become a martyr.

01:51:59.640 And for decades, he is going to be reminded.

01:52:03.200 Right, right.

01:52:03.980 As someone that's like fight for free speech and freedom of the people, you know.

01:52:08.240 Right.

01:52:08.780 It's a problem for the left to do that.

01:52:10.480 And to be very honest, I guess, I guess, the establishment of Brazil, they are waiting for the U.S. election.

01:52:19.200 Uh-huh.

01:52:19.640 Right, to see which side the bread is buttered on.

01:52:23.580 Yes, because, for example, when you have a Supreme Court powerful like that, they are backed by businessmen, billionaires, millionaires.

01:52:31.740 Because people who, for sure, have relationships with the United States, they have houses here, they have an accountant in Delaware, whatever.

01:52:40.860 Right, right, right.

01:52:41.440 They don't want to have problems with the U.S. administration.

01:52:44.620 So all of that is, it's on the table.

01:52:47.840 I don't think, to be very honest, the chances that my father could go to jail, it was way higher in the past than is nowadays.

01:52:56.960 This is my feeling.

01:52:58.420 Because in Brazil, you don't need a reason to go to the jail.

01:53:00.900 You have a congressman like me that is in jail.

01:53:03.800 His name is Daniel Silveira.

01:53:05.460 And I say his name to you.

01:53:06.940 Make sure that you can Google it and do your research about who is the guy.

01:53:10.540 He's in the jail because he got his cell phone and said bad words to the Supreme Court.

01:53:15.540 In our constitution, a senator or a congressman like me, we can say whatever we want.

01:53:21.160 We will never be sued in a court because of our opinions.

01:53:25.420 But this guy is in jail, convicted nine years, almost nine years in jail because he made a video that through the eyes of the Supreme Court, it was considered aggression against the democracy.

01:53:41.400 At that time that this guy was convicted, Jerry Bolsonaro was the president and gave to him the presidential pardon.

01:53:49.680 He got out of jail.

01:53:51.660 Then my father didn't get reelected.

01:53:54.140 And the Supreme Court analyzed the pardon of the president Bolsonaro and canceled that.

01:54:01.020 They handled the first time in the whole history of Brazil a presidential pardon.

01:54:05.840 And the guy is back now in the prison.

01:54:08.260 That's why I'm telling you I have to take care about my words.

01:54:11.460 Because I don't know, maybe this crazy, this...

01:54:15.220 Careful.

01:54:16.460 Madness.

01:54:17.060 Yeah.

01:54:17.660 Yeah.

01:54:18.500 So let's see.

01:54:19.320 Let's see.

01:54:19.960 Let's see what happens.

01:54:21.320 But we have a hope that with the new configuration of the electoral court, we can overturn the eligibility of my father.

01:54:27.740 And his moral, his political capital is huge.

01:54:30.820 If you look to the social media, everywhere he goes, even left-wing cities, it's full of people following him.

01:54:39.800 Full, full.

01:54:41.000 And on the other hand, we cannot go to the streets.

01:54:43.920 When is the election in 2026?

01:54:45.720 In October.

01:54:47.260 October 2026.

01:54:49.960 Okay.

01:54:50.460 Well, look, I think we should wrap it up there.

01:54:52.500 That's a good place to end.

01:54:53.600 And I think what we'll do on the Daily Wire side, for everybody who's watching and listening, we haven't talked about the broader context of South America.

01:55:01.680 I want to talk to you about what's going on in El Salvador.

01:55:04.120 I know that's Central America, but we'll consider that close enough for the purposes of this argument.

01:55:09.120 And also about Argentina.

01:55:10.820 And so I'd like you to enlighten us more profoundly about, yeah, the war, the culture war in Central and South America in general.

01:55:23.180 And, well, I'd like to talk about Malai.

01:55:25.700 And I read his name all the time.

01:55:28.520 Bukhali.

01:55:29.120 Bukhali.

01:55:29.640 Naive Bukhali.

01:55:30.320 Good, good.

01:55:30.760 Got it.

01:55:31.160 Got it.

01:55:31.520 Yeah.

01:55:31.880 So that's what we'll do on the Daily Wire side.

01:55:33.860 If all of you who are watching or some of you who are watching and listening want to join us there, we'll continue this discussion.

01:55:41.100 And that'll, what, update your knowledge with regards to your neighbors, likely neighbors to the South.

01:55:47.600 I know there's people in Europe watching as well.

01:55:50.300 Naive Bukhali is great.

01:55:51.900 Yeah.

01:55:52.220 I've been there twice last year in El Salvador.

01:55:55.500 One vacation to surf because I have great waves in El Salvador.

01:55:58.640 And the other visiting the jails.

01:56:00.980 Even the famous one that he built, it has capacity for 40,000 people in that jail.

01:56:08.140 They call it a center against terrorism.

01:56:10.340 Yeah.

01:56:11.120 And what Bukhali basically did is he's jailing the criminals and did not let them get outside.

01:56:17.420 So he already arrested more than 70,000 criminals.

01:56:23.280 And he reduced, to have an idea, El Salvador in 2016, the murders rate, it was 102 murders for each group of 100,000 people.

01:56:37.100 Right.

01:56:37.780 102.

01:56:38.860 It's the most violent country in the world in the year 2016.

01:56:43.640 Now, from 2002, they are around two.

01:56:48.200 Same level of Canada or some of the European countries.

01:56:52.800 And this is how he did that.

01:56:54.720 Wait.

01:56:56.040 Let's do that on the Daily Wire side.

01:56:58.220 All right.

01:56:58.540 We'll continue with that.

01:56:59.740 Yeah.

01:56:59.920 So that's a good teaser.

01:57:01.140 So thank you very much.

01:57:02.640 Thank you, Professor.

01:57:03.280 My pleasure.

01:57:03.700 Thank you for coming here.

01:57:04.020 My pleasure.

01:57:04.420 Much appreciated.

01:57:05.080 It's very good to bring these issues regarding Brazil to broader public knowledge, especially given the...

01:57:14.000 There's all sorts of reasons, but I guess the most compelling at the moment is the connection with Elon Musk and with free speech in general.

01:57:20.020 And so, yeah, so thank you very much for that.

01:57:22.220 And thank you to everybody who's watching and listening and supporting this podcast and to the film crew here in Scottsdale for making this possible.

01:57:30.260 Thank you.

498. Is Brazil on Path to Become Cuba？｜ Eduardo Bolsonaro

Summary

Transcript

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

498. Is Brazil on Path to Become Cuba？ ｜ Eduardo Bolsonaro

Summary

Transcript

498. Is Brazil on Path to Become Cuba？｜ Eduardo Bolsonaro