The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 504. Fired for Honesty and Competence： One Genuine Teacher's Story

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00:00:30.980 Hello, everybody.

00:00:31.960 I had the opportunity to sit down in person today with Warren Smith.

00:00:36.900 Warren was a teacher and he recorded himself having a discussion with a student

00:00:42.800 about a rather contentious topic.

00:00:44.840 Turned out to be J.K. Rowling's reactions to the trans propaganda insanity

00:00:50.540 that plagues our culture in 15 different ways.

00:00:54.160 Do you still like her work?

00:00:56.060 Despite her bigoted opinions.

00:00:59.300 So let's get specific, though.

00:01:01.540 Let's define bigoted opinions.

00:01:03.320 What opinions are bigoted?

00:01:04.500 She has had a history of being extremely transphobic, I've heard.

00:01:08.820 And you've heard.

00:01:09.740 So can you give me an example?

00:01:11.360 In 2019, she said,

00:01:13.900 Live your best life in peace and security,

00:01:17.040 but force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real.

00:01:21.620 So you find that bigoted?

00:01:23.240 What do you find about...

00:01:24.680 It was...

00:01:25.320 The video, which was remarkable, I would say,

00:01:29.300 for the good sense that Warren brought to it,

00:01:33.620 the calm demeanor, the intelligent questioning of the student,

00:01:37.820 really the professional way that he handled the discussion,

00:01:40.240 which is now so rare among those who purport to be teachers,

00:01:44.820 that the mere fact of its professionalism was remarkable in and of itself,

00:01:49.900 enough so that it went viral.

00:01:51.520 Do you find that transphobic yourself?

00:01:53.640 Uh, I don't really have an opinion on it,

00:01:56.420 but I'm just going with what a lot of other people have said.

00:02:00.000 So let's pause it.

00:02:01.060 Let's not go with what other people are saying.

00:02:03.000 Let's try and learn how to critically think.

00:02:05.060 So let's analyze the tweet ourselves.

00:02:07.260 So that statement,

00:02:08.860 do you see anything problematic?

00:02:10.720 It was shared by Elon Musk among many other people.

00:02:13.640 And as you might imagine,

00:02:16.260 that produced an explosive effect on Warren's life.

00:02:20.480 So it happened yesterday.

00:02:21.820 I was fired from my full-time teaching position.

00:02:26.780 That was followed up by a Pierce Morgan interview,

00:02:30.580 which I guess was the secondary explosion

00:02:33.160 in the two explosions that rocked his life.

00:02:35.780 I am absolutely surprised by this completely.

00:02:38.780 I never expected this at all.

00:02:40.040 This came out accidentally.

00:02:42.700 Just, we have interactions like this on a daily basis.

00:02:45.820 This one just happened to be captured on camera.

00:02:47.880 Which was also quite distressing, as you might expect,

00:02:51.880 given his level of commitment to his teaching profession.

00:02:55.720 I have devoted four years of my life

00:02:58.160 to this school.

00:03:02.660 And yesterday, it was like being a character in a video game

00:03:06.700 and just being deleted.

00:03:08.080 I wanted to talk to Warren

00:03:09.420 because I really liked the video that he made.

00:03:11.240 I thought it was remarkable for its sanity,

00:03:14.660 especially given the time.

00:03:15.840 And I was very curious about everything that had happened to him

00:03:19.360 in consequence of the viral explosion

00:03:22.140 of what he had done as a teacher.

00:03:23.760 And so, we sat down for an hour and a half

00:03:26.860 to talk all that through.

00:03:28.980 The consequences of saying what you think

00:03:32.260 when the situation is set up to reward you

00:03:35.780 for maintaining your silence.

00:03:37.920 Join us for that discussion.

00:03:40.600 Hello, Mr. Smith.

00:03:41.740 Thank you for coming in today.

00:03:43.460 It's an honor.

00:03:44.280 Thank you.

00:03:44.900 Yeah, no problem.

00:03:45.840 Yeah, I probably came across you

00:03:48.540 the way most people did.

00:03:49.940 And I guess that was with the video that went viral

00:03:52.740 that Musk shared, eh?

00:03:56.260 Lots of people who are watching and listening

00:03:58.160 won't know anything about you.

00:03:59.640 So, why don't we start from the beginning?

00:04:04.440 What was it that brought you to public attention?

00:04:07.300 And tell us the story about your teaching career.

00:04:10.500 Well, public attention,

00:04:11.460 it was that video that you're talking about.

00:04:14.820 But the beginning,

00:04:16.180 I mean, I've been thinking about this a lot

00:04:17.680 because I've had time to reflect on it more.

00:04:20.700 After that video,

00:04:21.860 it was a strange experience

00:04:23.760 because suddenly you have one five-minute video

00:04:26.980 and suddenly you have this perceived value.

00:04:31.820 But, I mean,

00:04:32.940 I was the exact same person as before that video.

00:04:35.580 Now, I mean, it was not,

00:04:37.200 for me, it was life-changing though.

00:04:39.460 So, I have people,

00:04:41.060 some people wanting to talk to me,

00:04:42.680 which was people that I have genuinely admired.

00:04:45.320 Like, I mean, this is a bit

00:04:48.060 kind of the Dave Rubin,

00:04:52.820 just opportunities that I never just,

00:04:55.580 never expected.

00:04:57.000 And so, I've been reflecting on those conversations

00:05:00.060 because I often,

00:05:01.660 I found myself kind of feeling like

00:05:03.620 I was trying to live up to something

00:05:06.780 from that video.

00:05:08.260 So, this idea of what,

00:05:09.400 suddenly I was labeled this,

00:05:11.140 kind of like this critical thinking,

00:05:12.300 Socratic Method guy.

00:05:14.080 And I wasn't intentionally doing that at all.

00:05:16.080 I have no background in Socratic Method

00:05:18.300 or critical thinking.

00:05:19.220 I was just doing what I thought

00:05:21.560 was sensible in the moment.

00:05:23.400 You don't necessarily know who you are,

00:05:25.480 you know, that's the thing.

00:05:27.140 And it wasn't exactly chance

00:05:30.840 that made the video go viral, right?

00:05:33.420 You obviously touched on a nerve

00:05:35.180 and in a manner that people admired.

00:05:39.240 Tell the story of the video

00:05:40.820 and talk about your work too.

00:05:42.760 You were working as a high school teacher

00:05:45.060 when you released that video.

00:05:46.740 Tell people the story of the video

00:05:48.680 and how it came to be

00:05:49.660 and why it was recorded to begin with.

00:05:52.160 Sure, sure.

00:05:53.700 So, I, after graduate school,

00:05:55.720 I found myself as a public school teacher

00:05:57.820 right up before COVID,

00:06:00.600 the year leading into COVID,

00:06:02.040 just teaching what I majored in.

00:06:05.180 And my plans were always to be a college professor.

00:06:07.760 And I teach some courses,

00:06:10.040 but I'm not tenure track or anything.

00:06:11.800 And perhaps one day,

00:06:13.300 but I found myself in this unlikely position

00:06:17.820 and I enjoyed it,

00:06:19.180 teaching the same subject matter,

00:06:20.460 video technology,

00:06:21.440 what we're doing right here.

00:06:23.020 Two high school kids.

00:06:24.480 Two high school kids.

00:06:25.440 Now you had a MFA?

00:06:26.940 Yes.

00:06:27.620 And what was the specialty?

00:06:29.460 Video production.

00:06:30.500 In video production.

00:06:31.560 And when did you graduate

00:06:33.040 with a master's degree?

00:06:34.500 19, 2019.

00:06:35.500 2019.

00:06:36.520 And then you were looking,

00:06:37.820 what kind of jobs were you looking for?

00:06:39.620 In education.

00:06:40.560 In education.

00:06:41.520 And you landed a job as a high school teacher.

00:06:43.460 High school teacher,

00:06:44.740 just by pure kind of just chance.

00:06:47.780 And I really enjoyed it.

00:06:49.960 COVID hits.

00:06:51.520 Everything goes.

00:06:53.320 Ape.

00:06:54.000 Crazy.

00:06:55.840 The school shuts down.

00:06:57.600 They make cuts

00:06:58.820 because of the teacher's union.

00:07:00.600 All first year hires

00:07:01.740 are gone.

00:07:04.620 So that kind of left

00:07:05.540 a taste in my mouth about unions.

00:07:08.980 One of my first experiences with unions.

00:07:11.760 And so I started looking for another job

00:07:13.440 and I found a school

00:07:15.840 that specialized in

00:07:18.040 kids with behavioral challenges.

00:07:20.080 And this is kind of

00:07:23.040 what I was alluding to

00:07:23.780 at the beginning.

00:07:24.360 There are things that I've not,

00:07:26.200 I've wanted to talk about

00:07:28.360 in these kind of interviews

00:07:29.660 that happen

00:07:30.280 or when someone wants to discuss this,

00:07:32.060 they want to discuss the video.

00:07:33.380 And I find myself,

00:07:34.840 because you've spoken about

00:07:35.660 when you feel your words

00:07:37.080 making you

00:07:39.520 not what you could be

00:07:40.980 or weaker.

00:07:41.980 You can feel it.

00:07:43.740 I decided that I would start

00:07:45.340 practicing

00:07:46.900 not saying things

00:07:48.480 that would make me weak.

00:07:49.780 And what happened was

00:07:50.940 that I had to stop saying

00:07:52.340 almost everything

00:07:53.500 that I was saying.

00:07:54.980 And that's how it feels.

00:07:55.540 You practiced with that, have you?

00:07:57.060 To say that you had an impact

00:07:58.320 on my life,

00:07:58.820 which is why this is surreal,

00:08:00.480 to say you had an impact

00:08:01.420 on my life

00:08:01.860 would be an understatement.

00:08:03.120 And we can get into that.

00:08:04.500 Okay.

00:08:04.920 That was in graduate school.

00:08:06.100 Okay.

00:08:07.460 But I was feeling that

00:08:09.080 in those conversations,

00:08:11.180 trying to live up

00:08:11.940 to something in a way.

00:08:13.520 I mean,

00:08:13.840 it was,

00:08:16.100 you're kind of saying

00:08:16.880 what people want to hear,

00:08:20.160 not trying to sound intelligent,

00:08:22.820 but something like that.

00:08:26.540 And I never expected

00:08:28.580 anything like this to happen,

00:08:30.580 but I did tell myself,

00:08:31.820 if I ever by some miracle

00:08:33.640 had the chance to speak to you,

00:08:35.000 I would allow myself permission

00:08:37.360 to allow my words

00:08:39.460 to have that vulnerability

00:08:40.300 and to go to that place

00:08:41.360 that I have not allowed myself

00:08:42.920 to go to

00:08:43.420 because I think

00:08:43.860 there is value there.

00:08:45.180 But the reason I bring that,

00:08:46.400 because that is kind of,

00:08:47.940 I've never spoken about

00:08:49.040 the reality of the school

00:08:50.100 where I was teaching.

00:08:50.760 Yeah, okay.

00:08:51.480 Okay.

00:08:51.820 Well, let's go down that path.

00:08:53.700 So these are kids

00:08:54.440 with behavioral challenges

00:08:56.220 that could not,

00:08:58.180 other schools

00:08:58.680 could not handle them.

00:08:59.860 So they put them all together.

00:09:01.580 It's a last line

00:09:02.760 of defense, sort of.

00:09:03.740 So they're specialized.

00:09:04.680 It's funded through

00:09:05.620 public school system.

00:09:07.860 So a student

00:09:08.980 is so challenging.

00:09:10.300 It could be for any reason.

00:09:11.580 Some are involved

00:09:12.600 with gangs,

00:09:14.220 substance abuse challenges.

00:09:15.760 Some are bullies.

00:09:17.000 Some are the bullied.

00:09:18.620 For whatever reason,

00:09:19.320 that school can't,

00:09:21.720 they're just not equipped.

00:09:23.100 They pay,

00:09:24.260 I think it's $50,000 a head,

00:09:25.940 something along those lines,

00:09:27.380 to send them

00:09:28.660 to the school,

00:09:30.220 which is governed by a board

00:09:31.580 and an executive director.

00:09:33.060 And here I am.

00:09:36.380 And you were hired

00:09:37.240 at that school?

00:09:37.860 With COVID going on.

00:09:40.580 Did you have any experience

00:09:42.140 at all dealing

00:09:42.760 with behaviorally challenged kids?

00:09:44.720 No.

00:09:45.260 So why'd they hire you?

00:09:48.120 I interviewed well.

00:09:49.540 I'm going to be,

00:09:51.080 I'm going to strive

00:09:51.620 to be as honest as I can

00:09:52.620 throughout this.

00:09:53.260 So I interviewed well.

00:09:54.620 Yeah.

00:09:54.940 I think they saw potential.

00:09:57.420 They were,

00:09:57.940 I think they were looking

00:10:00.580 for young teachers

00:10:02.540 that could weather

00:10:04.300 that kind of storm.

00:10:05.940 Were they mostly boys

00:10:07.240 in the school?

00:10:08.460 Yes.

00:10:09.260 What proportion?

00:10:10.940 I would say 80%.

00:10:12.580 Yeah, yeah.

00:10:12.880 Well, that's what you'd expect

00:10:14.040 if you brought

00:10:14.660 behaviorally challenged kids together

00:10:16.360 because they're much more,

00:10:17.180 they'd be much more likely

00:10:18.080 to be boys.

00:10:18.860 How old?

00:10:19.840 High school age,

00:10:20.820 whether there are

00:10:21.580 some middle school.

00:10:22.700 It was interesting

00:10:23.300 the way the building

00:10:24.200 is divided

00:10:25.120 to where a subset

00:10:26.060 of middle school

00:10:26.920 specialized with one group.

00:10:29.220 But because of COVID,

00:10:30.460 it was divided up

00:10:31.200 into pods

00:10:31.720 because they were worried

00:10:32.360 about cross-contamination

00:10:33.580 of COVID.

00:10:34.100 So there was 10 students

00:10:35.760 approximately to one site

00:10:37.040 and I was assigned

00:10:37.760 to one site

00:10:38.580 as the multimedia teacher

00:10:40.780 teaching the same thing

00:10:41.700 I've always taught

00:10:43.280 and there was no crossover

00:10:44.400 and then there was

00:10:45.120 three teachers assigned

00:10:46.420 to one site

00:10:47.100 to manage those 10 students

00:10:48.780 which ratio

00:10:50.020 of teacher to student

00:10:50.980 is quite high.

00:10:52.800 That's what their needs

00:10:54.260 necessitate.

00:10:56.200 How long did you teach

00:10:57.520 at that school?

00:10:58.520 up until losing my job

00:11:00.580 so four years?

00:11:02.160 Four years.

00:11:03.300 Okay, so you stuck it out too.

00:11:05.080 Well, I remember

00:11:05.940 when the first speech

00:11:08.560 they gave,

00:11:09.400 the principal that hired me

00:11:10.780 I really was,

00:11:11.380 I'm very fond of

00:11:12.480 and the assistant principal.

00:11:14.600 They are no longer there.

00:11:17.060 They were dismissed

00:11:17.580 a year prior to me

00:11:18.500 but they are the ones

00:11:19.440 that hired me

00:11:19.940 so when you ask

00:11:20.500 why they hire you,

00:11:21.400 he's the only person

00:11:22.060 that could answer that.

00:11:22.680 I remember he,

00:11:23.520 I was in the interview

00:11:24.520 and this assistant principal

00:11:28.280 walks in

00:11:29.020 and he's like dressed,

00:11:30.500 there was really no dress code

00:11:31.680 because he,

00:11:33.060 and he walks in

00:11:33.820 and he's like

00:11:35.240 blow my mind

00:11:35.880 in eight seconds

00:11:36.560 and then I forget

00:11:38.740 what I said

00:11:39.180 and then he just walked out

00:11:40.140 and didn't say

00:11:40.500 a single word

00:11:41.160 and I left thinking

00:11:41.800 I just blew that interview

00:11:43.000 but I got the job.

00:11:44.460 So anyways,

00:11:45.060 we're there on the first day

00:11:46.360 and he's like,

00:11:46.760 look guys,

00:11:48.120 if you're still teaching

00:11:49.260 at this school

00:11:49.960 in four years,

00:11:52.220 something's probably

00:11:53.020 wrong with you

00:11:54.420 or you have

00:11:55.400 some sadomasochistic

00:11:57.460 or you just have some,

00:11:59.540 I think he was alluding to

00:12:00.460 that there's some reason

00:12:01.380 you have that,

00:12:02.420 like this is not

00:12:03.580 your typical pathway

00:12:06.860 for educators.

00:12:08.260 He's trying to

00:12:08.900 illustrate the reality

00:12:10.440 that most times

00:12:11.600 they get traditional educators

00:12:13.080 that realize

00:12:13.940 where they are

00:12:14.700 and it's too late

00:12:16.020 at that point

00:12:16.440 and then they just vanish

00:12:17.340 and they're like,

00:12:18.020 I mean,

00:12:18.220 they last a week

00:12:19.280 if that.

00:12:19.720 We've had teachers

00:12:20.260 come in and last

00:12:21.060 a day,

00:12:22.420 one day

00:12:23.140 and just get in their car

00:12:24.040 and leave.

00:12:24.940 What happens to them?

00:12:26.960 They just,

00:12:27.600 they're like,

00:12:28.060 this is chaos.

00:12:29.180 This is,

00:12:31.080 I can't,

00:12:31.520 I can't survive this

00:12:32.640 for a year.

00:12:33.520 We were walking around

00:12:34.540 with walkie-talkies

00:12:35.800 so that you can respond quickly.

00:12:37.560 We're trained in safety care

00:12:39.580 so that you can go

00:12:40.680 hands-on if needed.

00:12:42.780 I mean,

00:12:43.100 fights breaking out.

00:12:44.620 It's not juvie

00:12:45.640 but it's one step

00:12:46.660 away from juvie.

00:12:48.360 Though,

00:12:49.160 you also have students

00:12:50.660 that are not headed

00:12:51.880 to juvie

00:12:52.480 but they're the ones

00:12:53.620 that get bullied

00:12:54.580 or for whatever

00:12:56.380 reason,

00:12:58.140 they have an IEP plan

00:12:59.560 that,

00:13:00.360 And what's that?

00:13:01.380 An individualized

00:13:02.760 education plan.

00:13:03.880 Yeah.

00:13:05.820 I have dyslexia

00:13:07.100 though,

00:13:09.120 some students

00:13:11.000 would have dyslexia

00:13:12.180 to a degree

00:13:12.800 where they need,

00:13:13.520 it was a special

00:13:14.360 education school

00:13:15.260 and it's designed

00:13:17.140 so that we can

00:13:18.220 accommodate

00:13:18.720 everything.

00:13:21.280 And so,

00:13:21.840 the students

00:13:22.260 that are hyper-aggressive

00:13:23.500 are put in one,

00:13:25.220 there's going to be

00:13:25.980 flaws to this logically,

00:13:27.580 are put in one

00:13:28.600 quadrant,

00:13:30.960 one site.

00:13:31.800 They were divided

00:13:32.220 into sites,

00:13:32.820 one, two, three,

00:13:33.400 four, whatnot.

00:13:34.360 So that there's no,

00:13:35.380 you can't put the bullies

00:13:36.300 with the bullied.

00:13:37.760 Right.

00:13:38.780 But then you have

00:13:39.500 hyper-aggressive

00:13:40.400 people together.

00:13:41.340 A bunch of males.

00:13:41.900 Yeah.

00:13:42.300 A lot of fights.

00:13:43.160 Right, of course.

00:13:43.640 That's the site I was on.

00:13:45.780 So let's just get

00:13:46.820 this timeline

00:13:47.400 exactly right.

00:13:48.220 So you got your

00:13:48.740 master's degree

00:13:49.400 in 2000,

00:13:50.260 at the end of 2019?

00:13:52.000 1977,

00:13:52.320 1978,

00:13:52.660 19.

00:13:53.300 And then you had

00:13:54.200 a teaching job

00:13:55.240 in a relatively

00:13:55.900 run-of-the-mill high school.

00:13:58.040 Right.

00:13:58.580 And COVID put an end

00:13:59.700 to that

00:14:00.140 and then

00:14:01.280 as COVID lifted,

00:14:02.860 you found a job

00:14:03.840 in this school

00:14:05.040 that was for

00:14:06.140 behaviorally challenged kids

00:14:07.640 and it was a very

00:14:08.820 mixed bag

00:14:09.920 of behaviorally challenged kids,

00:14:11.240 which is also

00:14:11.720 a very interesting

00:14:12.600 administrative decision.

00:14:14.020 I mean,

00:14:14.360 the idea that you would put

00:14:16.040 all the kids

00:14:17.060 with all the problems

00:14:18.260 in the same school

00:14:19.320 is a strange idea.

00:14:20.880 It's not like

00:14:21.480 problems

00:14:22.820 constitutes a category.

00:14:25.560 Yeah.

00:14:25.780 It's not a category at all.

00:14:27.220 And then,

00:14:28.160 while you alluded

00:14:28.800 to this as well,

00:14:29.780 it isn't the least bit

00:14:31.380 evident from the evidence

00:14:32.980 that putting

00:14:33.620 aggressive kids together

00:14:35.320 is anything

00:14:36.180 but a really bad idea.

00:14:38.380 Right?

00:14:38.600 There's immense

00:14:39.640 clinical literature

00:14:40.520 demonstrating exactly that.

00:14:42.200 And you said

00:14:42.980 you ended up

00:14:44.620 with the aggressive kids.

00:14:46.280 Okay.

00:14:46.900 But you also pointed out

00:14:48.420 that you taught there

00:14:49.260 for four years.

00:14:50.760 So it changed.

00:14:51.740 The landscape transformed.

00:14:53.680 Okay.

00:14:54.240 Those first two years

00:14:55.260 were the most chaotic.

00:14:56.260 Perhaps that had something

00:14:57.020 to do with COVID.

00:14:58.580 So,

00:14:59.160 because I arrived

00:15:00.660 during COVID,

00:15:02.220 suddenly there's

00:15:02.800 kind of an outbreak

00:15:03.840 at the school.

00:15:05.060 I remember driving

00:15:05.980 into the parking lot

00:15:06.700 one morning.

00:15:07.540 Half the staff

00:15:08.460 are coming out

00:15:09.440 of the parking lot,

00:15:10.220 getting into their cars

00:15:11.080 and they're like,

00:15:11.680 they're telling us to leave.

00:15:13.680 So I'm on site one.

00:15:15.200 For whatever reason,

00:15:16.880 all the teachers

00:15:18.940 were sent home

00:15:19.600 on site one

00:15:20.160 except me.

00:15:21.460 Now,

00:15:21.960 there was no students

00:15:22.920 in the building though

00:15:23.660 for three or four weeks

00:15:25.080 this went on.

00:15:25.920 And so I was teaching

00:15:26.620 remotely

00:15:27.020 in my classroom

00:15:28.320 on my computer.

00:15:29.220 And I kind of expanded

00:15:31.700 the curriculum

00:15:32.280 to like help.

00:15:33.200 They needed me

00:15:33.560 to fill in

00:15:34.000 with other things.

00:15:34.940 I remember that distinctly.

00:15:37.220 And so then we get

00:15:38.840 through that.

00:15:39.380 That might have happened.

00:15:40.240 It was like every few months

00:15:41.600 there was an outbreak

00:15:42.240 on this site

00:15:42.960 and they're gone.

00:15:43.780 And so,

00:15:44.060 you know,

00:15:44.220 and you can't walk

00:15:44.960 through these doors

00:15:45.780 for contamination

00:15:47.160 and COVID ends.

00:15:50.340 And over the course

00:15:51.500 of the next two years

00:15:52.480 it changed

00:15:53.720 because originally

00:15:54.640 multimedia,

00:15:55.280 I was able to

00:15:56.560 I was able to

00:15:58.140 grow the program

00:15:59.300 to where I was able

00:16:00.100 to work with

00:16:00.500 the entire building.

00:16:01.640 It was no longer

00:16:02.640 just limited

00:16:03.840 to one site.

00:16:05.960 Which was remarkable

00:16:07.420 because in upstairs

00:16:08.560 they have students

00:16:10.280 with severe

00:16:11.420 physical challenges,

00:16:14.100 Down syndrome,

00:16:15.480 challenges such as that.

00:16:16.760 And that requires

00:16:17.640 a completely different

00:16:18.860 specialty.

00:16:20.520 No doubt.

00:16:21.120 And a different type

00:16:21.940 of staff

00:16:22.580 and professionalism even

00:16:24.100 because you can't

00:16:25.540 afford a mistake.

00:16:26.780 It's life or death.

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00:16:31.800 in playing sight

00:16:32.560 for thousands of years?

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00:17:16.800 And I began to work

00:17:23.160 with those students

00:17:23.800 as well.

00:17:24.260 And you're always

00:17:26.340 going to have

00:17:26.620 inner politics,

00:17:28.380 office place politics

00:17:29.360 and whatnot,

00:17:30.040 and certain cliques form.

00:17:31.880 And I mentioned

00:17:32.720 the principal

00:17:34.140 and assistant principal

00:17:35.020 both just got fired

00:17:36.580 in the middle of the day,

00:17:37.640 same day.

00:17:39.700 And they put out a reason,

00:17:42.200 you know,

00:17:42.600 and they're like,

00:17:43.480 oh, they just,

00:17:44.240 they keep it vague.

00:17:45.100 And it was clearly,

00:17:47.440 it was kind of a,

00:17:48.600 in the first year

00:17:49.220 the school tried

00:17:49.720 to unionize,

00:17:50.360 there was a movement

00:17:50.820 to unionize.

00:17:51.660 And that principal

00:17:52.460 that hired me

00:17:53.080 was very against it.

00:17:54.360 And I voted against it

00:17:55.640 because my previous

00:17:56.700 experience with unions

00:17:57.560 was starting to wake up

00:17:58.420 to the reality

00:17:59.020 of the drawbacks.

00:17:59.940 I understand the motivation

00:18:01.040 behind unions,

00:18:01.880 but,

00:18:03.660 so there was,

00:18:04.700 my point is

00:18:05.260 that interplace politics

00:18:06.560 and it took them out.

00:18:09.800 But I was able to,

00:18:12.460 this new principal

00:18:13.220 arose who was

00:18:14.080 a very nice guy.

00:18:16.200 There was originally

00:18:16.860 two assistant principals

00:18:17.900 and one was the kind

00:18:18.960 of the guy who,

00:18:20.980 in my mind,

00:18:21.620 I'm almost positive,

00:18:22.340 kind of led

00:18:23.320 that formation

00:18:25.020 of what caused them

00:18:26.140 to leave

00:18:26.560 and he ascended in power,

00:18:28.140 became the only

00:18:30.060 assistant principal

00:18:31.160 and his good buddy

00:18:32.520 who was 30 years old

00:18:34.460 at the time

00:18:34.860 became the principal,

00:18:36.780 which is pretty young

00:18:37.560 to be a principal.

00:18:38.480 And he was a very nice guy

00:18:39.700 though,

00:18:40.020 you know,

00:18:40.380 and for whatever,

00:18:43.220 reason,

00:18:43.840 I got moved

00:18:45.040 across the street

00:18:45.880 into a separate building

00:18:47.180 though,

00:18:47.520 which I actually liked

00:18:48.380 because it gave me

00:18:49.260 more room to grow

00:18:51.300 and so the students

00:18:52.120 would,

00:18:52.860 when the teachers,

00:18:53.560 I had,

00:18:54.600 all the students

00:18:55.280 would rotate,

00:18:56.120 the teachers would bring

00:18:56.780 them across the street.

00:18:57.540 I had this great lab,

00:18:58.660 multimedia lab

00:18:59.440 with a 3D printer.

00:19:01.320 We were investing

00:19:02.220 in new equipment,

00:19:03.840 camera technology,

00:19:05.640 Photoshop.

00:19:06.040 I had 11 iMacs

00:19:09.140 running Premiere Pro

00:19:11.100 and Photoshop.

00:19:12.600 How were the kids

00:19:13.480 responding to this?

00:19:14.440 Well,

00:19:14.640 you're describing a program,

00:19:16.360 it sounds to me

00:19:16.940 like you're describing

00:19:17.640 a program

00:19:18.240 that was successful

00:19:19.740 and that grew.

00:19:20.820 Is that the case?

00:19:21.940 And the kids,

00:19:22.960 were they responding well

00:19:24.160 to what you were teaching?

00:19:25.760 I think that

00:19:26.620 it was really interesting

00:19:27.820 to notice the difference.

00:19:28.860 The students downstairs,

00:19:31.180 behavioral versus

00:19:32.260 physical challenges,

00:19:33.080 the students upstairs

00:19:34.620 were the ones

00:19:35.240 that resonated the most

00:19:36.520 with Photoshop,

00:19:38.920 video editing.

00:19:39.640 There was an enthusiasm

00:19:40.600 that,

00:19:41.960 so a student with autism,

00:19:43.100 something about

00:19:43.740 some of these skills,

00:19:44.860 they just love,

00:19:46.120 you get them going

00:19:46.740 on video editing.

00:19:48.500 That's very detail-oriented.

00:19:50.460 Yeah,

00:19:51.080 and so I had,

00:19:52.500 I just loved

00:19:53.420 working with those students

00:19:54.720 and I didn't get to do that

00:19:55.820 until my

00:19:56.400 last two years.

00:19:59.880 So,

00:20:00.700 but it was

00:20:01.520 the first two years

00:20:02.380 with those other students,

00:20:03.080 I still think

00:20:03.620 I was making progress

00:20:04.400 with them,

00:20:05.000 like bringing in digital.

00:20:06.140 I had,

00:20:07.040 as a teacher,

00:20:07.780 you're not supposed

00:20:08.220 to have favorites,

00:20:09.020 but this,

00:20:10.760 the student

00:20:11.460 that I was probably

00:20:11.940 the most fond of

00:20:12.800 who ended up

00:20:13.700 getting kicked out

00:20:14.400 over something

00:20:14.920 that,

00:20:16.460 he was just

00:20:17.680 a brilliant illustrator.

00:20:19.720 He could draw,

00:20:20.680 which I keep,

00:20:21.300 just incredible

00:20:22.100 and came from nothing.

00:20:24.600 And most of these kids,

00:20:27.200 it was the,

00:20:28.020 I think the core issue

00:20:29.060 was just there was no parents.

00:20:30.500 The parents,

00:20:31.240 I mean,

00:20:31.420 we would have open house

00:20:32.300 and no one

00:20:33.180 would show up.

00:20:35.100 Right.

00:20:35.900 So they were on their own.

00:20:37.820 Yeah.

00:20:38.320 And that student

00:20:40.260 in particular,

00:20:41.340 I found something

00:20:42.060 that resonated with him.

00:20:43.320 We invested in like

00:20:44.080 a critter drawing tablet

00:20:45.120 and he accelerated

00:20:46.760 with that,

00:20:47.380 but the problem came

00:20:48.260 in the form,

00:20:48.900 I noticed,

00:20:49.280 when they would say,

00:20:50.320 he's drawing

00:20:52.120 illustrations

00:20:53.000 of samurais in combat.

00:20:55.920 What good

00:20:56.520 is that going to do him?

00:20:57.840 We want him

00:20:58.460 to do projects

00:20:59.540 that are relevant

00:21:00.140 to the school,

00:21:01.660 but then they would

00:21:02.160 give me no

00:21:03.080 criteria of,

00:21:05.960 or set plans.

00:21:07.880 There was no curriculum

00:21:08.820 in place.

00:21:09.300 I developed it all myself,

00:21:10.520 which I wasn't.

00:21:12.280 There's pros and cons

00:21:13.460 to that.

00:21:14.660 There's a lot

00:21:15.020 of freedom to that,

00:21:15.920 but the challenge

00:21:16.900 is that it allows

00:21:18.040 them to come in

00:21:18.880 at their convenience

00:21:20.180 if they...

00:21:21.100 And who was they?

00:21:23.300 Leadership,

00:21:24.700 which I never

00:21:25.980 had an issue with.

00:21:26.820 I never had an issue

00:21:27.800 until I published

00:21:28.880 that video.

00:21:29.920 Okay,

00:21:30.340 so let's talk

00:21:31.820 about that.

00:21:32.900 Tell everybody

00:21:33.680 about what the video was.

00:21:35.660 We'll clip it into this

00:21:36.880 so that people

00:21:37.460 can see it,

00:21:38.120 obviously,

00:21:38.760 but describe

00:21:39.940 why was it

00:21:41.840 that you were

00:21:42.320 posting videos

00:21:43.160 and how did

00:21:45.940 this particular one

00:21:46.760 come about?

00:21:47.280 So these guys

00:21:48.880 want to talk

00:21:49.380 about J.K. Rowling?

00:21:51.240 So what's going on

00:21:52.340 with that?

00:21:52.620 What do you want

00:21:52.920 to know?

00:21:55.400 She's had a pretty

00:21:56.240 controversial past.

00:21:57.580 I just want to know

00:21:58.140 what are your thoughts

00:21:59.060 on it?

00:21:59.940 Do you still like

00:22:01.060 her work

00:22:01.640 despite her

00:22:02.720 bigoted opinions?

00:22:05.240 So let's get

00:22:05.920 specific, though.

00:22:07.500 Let's define

00:22:08.160 bigoted opinions.

00:22:09.060 She has had a history

00:22:10.720 of being extremely

00:22:11.680 transphobic,

00:22:12.520 I've heard.

00:22:13.600 You've heard,

00:22:14.260 so can you give

00:22:14.880 me an example?

00:22:15.320 So one of

00:22:17.260 these tweets

00:22:18.140 that she came

00:22:18.880 out with

00:22:19.480 in 2019,

00:22:21.280 she said,

00:22:22.640 dress however

00:22:23.200 you please,

00:22:24.100 call yourself

00:22:24.800 whatever you like,

00:22:26.000 sleep with any

00:22:27.040 consenting adult

00:22:28.120 who will have

00:22:28.960 you live

00:22:31.140 your best life

00:22:32.460 in peace

00:22:33.240 and security,

00:22:34.140 but force women

00:22:35.040 out of their jobs

00:22:36.060 for stating

00:22:36.720 that sex

00:22:39.500 is real.

00:22:40.860 So you find

00:22:41.500 that bigoted?

00:22:41.960 I don't really

00:22:42.800 have an opinion

00:22:43.480 on it,

00:22:44.000 but I'm just

00:22:44.820 going with what

00:22:45.680 a lot of other

00:22:46.700 people have said.

00:22:47.800 So let's pause it.

00:22:48.640 Let's not go with

00:22:49.580 what other people

00:22:50.160 are saying.

00:22:50.580 Let's try and

00:22:51.260 learn how to

00:22:51.800 critically think.

00:22:52.640 So let's

00:22:53.080 analyze the tweet

00:22:54.060 ourselves.

00:22:54.920 So that statement,

00:22:56.400 do you see

00:22:56.920 anything problematic?

00:22:58.160 Force women

00:22:58.960 out of their jobs

00:23:00.480 for stating

00:23:01.340 that sex

00:23:02.440 is real.

00:23:03.240 So when I hear

00:23:03.960 that, I'm

00:23:04.340 interpreting that

00:23:05.100 as meaning

00:23:05.600 if a woman

00:23:07.200 says that,

00:23:08.120 you know,

00:23:08.340 saying that there's

00:23:09.120 a difference between

00:23:09.800 men and female

00:23:10.480 and then being

00:23:11.440 attacked as

00:23:12.520 transphobic,

00:23:13.600 I think that's

00:23:14.100 what she's saying

00:23:15.240 by attacking

00:23:16.300 someone for stating

00:23:17.220 that sex is real.

00:23:18.300 That is exactly

00:23:19.100 what she's saying.

00:23:20.020 Is that transphobic

00:23:21.020 to you?

00:23:21.980 So,

00:23:22.680 to me,

00:23:25.240 no.

00:23:26.060 So is there

00:23:26.480 anything you disagree

00:23:27.220 with in that tweet?

00:23:29.080 Uh,

00:23:29.640 in that tweet,

00:23:32.280 I can't really

00:23:33.300 see anything

00:23:34.060 that I myself

00:23:35.260 disagree with.

00:23:36.440 So now that

00:23:37.120 we're looking at it

00:23:37.760 like, oh,

00:23:38.200 there's not much

00:23:38.600 difference between

00:23:39.120 me or her,

00:23:39.580 do you,

00:23:40.020 why do you,

00:23:41.860 do you think

00:23:42.260 it's fair

00:23:42.760 that there's a,

00:23:45.100 that she's being

00:23:45.940 attacked by a large

00:23:47.020 group of people

00:23:47.600 and people are

00:23:48.120 calling her,

00:23:48.640 like you said,

00:23:49.440 at the beginning

00:23:49.940 of this conversation,

00:23:50.740 you said,

00:23:51.380 given the fact

00:23:52.360 that J.K. Rowling

00:23:53.480 is transphobic,

00:23:54.660 how do you feel

00:23:55.240 about Harry Potter?

00:23:56.480 Now,

00:23:57.200 retroactively looking

00:23:58.140 at that statement,

00:23:59.380 do you think that

00:23:59.860 that was the best

00:24:00.400 way to phrase?

00:24:01.300 No,

00:24:01.720 I feel like an idiot

00:24:02.420 now.

00:24:03.400 That's okay,

00:24:04.000 though,

00:24:04.180 but this is why

00:24:04.960 we do this,

00:24:05.480 to learn how to think.

00:24:07.020 I discovered

00:24:07.740 2017 a video

00:24:10.060 of a professor,

00:24:12.320 low-quality video

00:24:13.460 in this classroom

00:24:15.060 that looked like mine.

00:24:15.940 You're standing

00:24:16.280 in front of the

00:24:16.580 classroom talking

00:24:17.140 about archetypes

00:24:17.960 of Harry Potter.

00:24:18.840 It was you,

00:24:19.580 and I was like,

00:24:20.020 that's cool.

00:24:21.540 And this is 2017.

00:24:25.120 That was the first

00:24:25.620 video I saw of you,

00:24:26.560 and I went down

00:24:27.200 in the rabbit hole,

00:24:27.740 caffeine,

00:24:28.140 and all that,

00:24:29.060 classics.

00:24:30.200 And I said to my,

00:24:32.920 I'm going to try this

00:24:33.860 because I was teaching

00:24:35.080 students about filmmaking

00:24:36.320 and movies.

00:24:37.740 And I was teaching

00:24:39.060 a journalism class,

00:24:40.360 and I was like,

00:24:42.240 this ties in directly,

00:24:43.660 and I just,

00:24:43.980 I loved this style.

00:24:45.280 I was like,

00:24:45.940 teaching is a performance.

00:24:47.880 There's a performance

00:24:48.600 art element to this

00:24:49.620 because you have

00:24:50.240 to be engaging

00:24:50.880 to be able to stand

00:24:51.660 in front of a classroom

00:24:52.420 and get them engaged.

00:24:54.320 There's an artistic

00:24:56.540 element to that

00:24:57.440 that I'm not quite,

00:24:58.680 not sure how to

00:24:59.400 articulate that.

00:25:00.400 It might not be right.

00:25:01.040 No, you did.

00:25:01.840 It's a performance.

00:25:02.980 But that's what I saw

00:25:03.640 in your video.

00:25:04.260 So I went in,

00:25:06.280 it was probably

00:25:06.840 a few weeks later,

00:25:07.940 and I,

00:25:08.740 we have all the cameras,

00:25:09.780 and I was teaching

00:25:10.540 a student how to use it.

00:25:11.600 I said,

00:25:11.980 okay, now you know

00:25:12.560 how to use the camera.

00:25:13.140 Let's try and record

00:25:13.860 this lecture.

00:25:14.420 I saw this thing

00:25:15.020 on YouTube.

00:25:15.660 Yeah.

00:25:16.100 And I essentially

00:25:17.480 ran through archetypes

00:25:18.560 in Harry Potter,

00:25:19.160 and they loved it.

00:25:20.200 And that video

00:25:20.860 is on YouTube.

00:25:21.860 People can watch it.

00:25:22.960 No one watched it

00:25:23.940 at the time.

00:25:25.080 But it's up there,

00:25:26.000 and that's years ago.

00:25:27.480 It'd be five years ago.

00:25:28.540 That's how it started.

00:25:29.280 So I started,

00:25:29.760 and I was like,

00:25:31.040 this is a great,

00:25:32.120 I agree with you

00:25:32.840 that YouTube

00:25:33.460 is a Gutenberg revolution

00:25:34.840 that we cannot comprehend

00:25:36.260 what it means.

00:25:38.640 It is massive potential,

00:25:42.360 and it's exciting.

00:25:44.820 So I fell in love

00:25:47.400 with that aspect of it.

00:25:48.400 Started to,

00:25:49.340 because there's

00:25:49.920 teaching portfolios.

00:25:51.180 What better way,

00:25:51.920 what better thing

00:25:52.660 to have in a teaching portfolio

00:25:54.060 than a recording

00:25:56.780 of you actually teaching.

00:25:58.480 So they ask you

00:25:59.440 to have artifacts,

00:26:00.560 provide artifacts

00:26:01.260 of your teaching.

00:26:02.580 Here's a video

00:26:03.440 of me teaching.

00:26:04.320 Right.

00:26:04.580 Beat that.

00:26:05.300 It's like,

00:26:06.140 so that was the thinking.

00:26:08.000 And I had,

00:26:08.420 and also in multimedia,

00:26:09.840 we would do

00:26:10.720 reviews of movies

00:26:12.720 like The Queen's Gambit.

00:26:14.200 It did,

00:26:14.720 you know,

00:26:15.060 it was just a way

00:26:16.260 to get students

00:26:17.000 to practice

00:26:18.040 articulating themselves.

00:26:19.340 Public speaking,

00:26:20.220 when you don't have

00:26:21.180 a room full of people

00:26:23.120 for them to practice

00:26:24.300 in front of,

00:26:25.260 a camera

00:26:25.840 is not a bad substitute

00:26:27.820 because it allows them

00:26:28.740 to watch it back,

00:26:30.120 hear their voice,

00:26:31.320 which at first,

00:26:32.620 no one likes.

00:26:33.500 It causes you to cringe.

00:26:34.780 It's a very interesting response.

00:26:36.200 Right, right.

00:26:37.200 But you can learn

00:26:38.160 so much from watching

00:26:39.220 and those repetitions

00:26:41.040 and doing it again

00:26:42.540 and again

00:26:42.980 and they loved it.

00:26:45.000 Some of the students

00:26:45.520 just really loved it.

00:26:47.340 So to bring us

00:26:47.960 to that video,

00:26:49.200 they asked me

00:26:50.340 to do a newscast.

00:26:51.960 They're like,

00:26:52.160 we want to try a new idea.

00:26:53.740 Can you do a newscast

00:26:54.620 for the school

00:26:55.160 once a week,

00:26:55.920 which is what I was doing

00:26:56.920 in that public school.

00:26:58.920 We would,

00:26:59.200 but that was a legit newscast

00:27:01.020 that would go out live

00:27:02.020 to every classroom

00:27:03.260 once a week on Friday.

00:27:04.920 They had all this

00:27:05.780 technology to do it.

00:27:07.180 And they would upload

00:27:10.620 everything to social media.

00:27:11.800 That's why I have a Twitter.

00:27:13.060 That was the only reason

00:27:13.640 I even had a Twitter account

00:27:14.980 at the time.

00:27:16.700 That was the original school.

00:27:18.540 The original school of public school.

00:27:19.800 I can even say that.

00:27:20.600 It was Neshoba Regional High School

00:27:22.200 in Massachusetts.

00:27:24.060 So if you go to my Twitter feed,

00:27:25.500 the very only first tweets,

00:27:27.280 they're all just

00:27:27.740 Neshoba student broadcast

00:27:29.080 because,

00:27:29.920 and the head of my department

00:27:31.000 would ask me

00:27:31.560 to just share them.

00:27:32.640 I thought that was just normal.

00:27:34.980 And there was no,

00:27:35.640 students loved it.

00:27:37.920 So how much recording

00:27:39.240 of your teaching

00:27:40.000 were you doing

00:27:40.760 in your classes

00:27:41.520 in the second school?

00:27:44.460 Not too much.

00:27:45.240 I mean,

00:27:45.500 I would not,

00:27:46.540 I would,

00:27:46.920 it was more projects

00:27:48.020 like the Queen's Gambit review.

00:27:51.080 I had a colleague,

00:27:52.260 the music teacher,

00:27:53.340 had a passion

00:27:53.880 for camera technology as well.

00:27:55.640 And he was my closest collaborator

00:27:57.460 because we were voc teachers,

00:27:59.400 vocational teachers,

00:28:00.480 meaning we worked

00:28:01.220 with the whole building.

00:28:02.640 We were the only ones

00:28:03.460 that everyone else

00:28:04.340 worked with just their sites.

00:28:06.880 There was like a culinary teacher,

00:28:09.060 landscaping,

00:28:10.500 and they were always

00:28:10.980 experimenting with the vocations,

00:28:12.380 but music and multimedia

00:28:13.880 always remained consistent.

00:28:15.960 How big a school?

00:28:17.640 Only,

00:28:18.860 downstairs,

00:28:20.200 50 students.

00:28:22.000 Upstairs,

00:28:22.680 50,

00:28:23.020 about 50 students.

00:28:23.920 Okay.

00:28:24.400 And how many teachers?

00:28:26.180 Well,

00:28:26.420 the ratio was-

00:28:27.400 You said it was

00:28:27.880 three to one,

00:28:28.540 about, eh?

00:28:29.460 That's what they strive for,

00:28:30.940 but they're constantly

00:28:32.440 battling understaffing

00:28:33.720 because teachers

00:28:34.480 just vanish

00:28:35.220 often.

00:28:36.780 Had you done a lot of videos

00:28:38.160 in the build-up

00:28:39.080 to the video

00:28:39.760 that you,

00:28:40.760 that got so much attention?

00:28:42.520 I had been posting

00:28:43.100 little things,

00:28:44.540 like,

00:28:45.300 just like I was mentioning,

00:28:46.320 like,

00:28:46.860 reviews and things,

00:28:47.720 but no one was watching them

00:28:48.960 and no one cared.

00:28:49.900 It wasn't,

00:28:51.440 you know,

00:28:51.940 and working with

00:28:53.920 the music teacher,

00:28:54.660 we would do,

00:28:55.280 like,

00:28:55.680 the mathematics

00:28:56.280 of the Fibonacci sequence

00:28:57.740 and music,

00:28:58.720 things which are still

00:28:59.720 up there.

00:29:00.640 So,

00:29:01.160 if you're curious

00:29:01.620 to dig in the,

00:29:02.220 you can,

00:29:03.160 if anyone's watching this,

00:29:04.200 but,

00:29:05.500 but,

00:29:05.860 to answer your question

00:29:06.940 about how this video

00:29:07.660 came about,

00:29:08.520 so they asked me

00:29:09.060 to do a news broadcast.

00:29:10.280 We're not equipped

00:29:10.780 to do that,

00:29:11.340 but we tried anyways.

00:29:12.760 And they're like,

00:29:13.080 we want this kid

00:29:13.780 to,

00:29:14.180 to be the person

00:29:15.960 on camera

00:29:16.560 and just go through.

00:29:17.300 This is what happened

00:29:17.940 in the school this week.

00:29:19.040 So,

00:29:19.480 we go in the room,

00:29:19.980 we go to set it up

00:29:20.660 and he's,

00:29:21.180 uh,

00:29:21.620 getting stage fright,

00:29:22.900 camera shy.

00:29:23.700 He's just,

00:29:24.980 and I think it's

00:29:26.140 very important in teaching

00:29:26.860 to lead by example.

00:29:28.320 So,

00:29:28.900 let's just treat,

00:29:30.620 let's just do a warmup.

00:29:31.880 All set on camera.

00:29:33.380 You operate it,

00:29:34.180 let's just have a conversation.

00:29:35.600 Treat it like a podcast

00:29:36.920 real quick.

00:29:37.480 Let's do like a five minute

00:29:38.400 warmup.

00:29:39.300 Just ask me something

00:29:40.280 that you want to,

00:29:41.740 that would interest you.

00:29:42.860 Okay,

00:29:43.240 he hits record.

00:29:44.900 All right,

00:29:45.200 so how have your views

00:29:46.040 on J.K. Rowling changed

00:29:47.320 given her bigoted opinions?

00:29:48.980 Or how have your views

00:29:49.840 on Harry Potter changed

00:29:50.920 given J.K. Rowling's

00:29:52.240 bigoted opinions?

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00:31:27.660 Well, first we need

00:31:31.660 to address that

00:31:32.200 and then just walk

00:31:32.740 through it

00:31:33.180 and I thought,

00:31:34.540 that's interesting,

00:31:36.120 you know,

00:31:36.380 and maybe I'll try

00:31:37.680 something new

00:31:38.200 with this YouTube thing

00:31:39.120 and I just uploaded it.

00:31:40.180 I was like,

00:31:40.380 that's interesting enough

00:31:41.820 to post.

00:31:42.400 I didn't think anyone

00:31:43.020 would watch it.

00:31:44.060 Walk us through

00:31:44.680 your response.

00:31:45.560 What did you know

00:31:46.120 about,

00:31:46.800 you mentioned

00:31:47.640 watching the Harry Potter,

00:31:50.000 an analysis

00:31:50.580 of Harry Potter

00:31:51.260 I had done

00:31:51.880 and let's walk

00:31:52.700 through it.

00:31:53.300 Well, first we need

00:31:54.240 to address,

00:31:55.460 is she bigoted?

00:31:57.280 That's the glaring

00:31:58.080 presupposition.

00:31:58.920 Right, right, right.

00:32:00.360 So that constitutes

00:32:01.440 a loaded question.

00:32:03.380 Right.

00:32:04.180 So what are you

00:32:05.260 basing that upon?

00:32:08.460 Well, you know,

00:32:09.600 I've heard that she has,

00:32:10.620 she's,

00:32:11.000 tweets.

00:32:13.300 Okay, do you have any other,

00:32:14.880 I can show you the tweets

00:32:16.180 if you want.

00:32:17.700 Sure, let's take a look.

00:32:19.740 Dig some tweets out.

00:32:22.120 We read the tweets.

00:32:23.480 Okay, so do you find that,

00:32:25.020 what about that

00:32:25.860 is transphobic?

00:32:28.220 And I don't remember

00:32:28.820 the exact tweet

00:32:29.500 and we clarify it

00:32:30.680 and then he goes,

00:32:31.880 oh, but she did apologize

00:32:32.840 as well for this other thing,

00:32:34.460 this other piece of evidence.

00:32:35.880 Okay, let's take a look.

00:32:38.060 Same process.

00:32:41.200 Then we,

00:32:41.860 so I point out,

00:32:42.500 okay, so there's really

00:32:43.540 no much difference,

00:32:44.180 there's not much difference

00:32:44.920 between you and her.

00:32:47.180 You understand that

00:32:47.980 she's stating that

00:32:50.320 it's important to her

00:32:51.480 her experience

00:32:53.000 as a woman.

00:32:54.820 She has no issue

00:32:55.800 with someone

00:32:56.300 identifying how they want

00:32:57.600 to identify,

00:32:58.300 but that's not going to change.

00:32:59.940 That shouldn't impact

00:33:01.100 her experience

00:33:02.460 and her,

00:33:02.920 the reality

00:33:03.540 that she's a woman

00:33:04.640 and what that means

00:33:05.720 in reality.

00:33:09.380 No, I agree with that.

00:33:10.540 Okay, so now looking back

00:33:11.880 at the beginning

00:33:12.300 of this conversation,

00:33:13.600 that claim you made

00:33:14.820 when you say,

00:33:15.660 call her bigoted,

00:33:16.500 do you think that was

00:33:17.000 a fair thing to say?

00:33:18.660 No, now I feel stupid.

00:33:21.840 That's okay.

00:33:22.640 That's why we do this.

00:33:25.580 And often,

00:33:26.320 I would have

00:33:27.520 interesting conversations

00:33:28.600 when they arose,

00:33:29.420 going back to the idea of,

00:33:30.800 and there was some blowback

00:33:31.780 about that,

00:33:32.280 of why are you having

00:33:33.260 conversations,

00:33:33.980 your job is to teach students

00:33:35.420 how to set up cameras

00:33:38.120 and shoot videos

00:33:39.180 and do photo editing

00:33:41.140 and 3D printing

00:33:41.920 and using this technology.

00:33:44.580 But as we just pointed out,

00:33:46.700 there's extreme,

00:33:47.780 if the goal

00:33:48.800 is to use this technology

00:33:50.560 with students

00:33:51.160 in the way that is going

00:33:51.960 to most benefit them,

00:33:54.820 well, that should be.

00:33:56.360 Use of the technology

00:33:57.760 isn't independent

00:33:58.680 of the content,

00:34:00.640 especially if you're doing

00:34:01.740 video recording.

00:34:03.980 And there's so much utility

00:34:06.140 in teaching students

00:34:09.640 how to think,

00:34:11.860 how to articulate themselves,

00:34:14.440 how to,

00:34:14.920 and often they have questions

00:34:16.020 about things in the world.

00:34:17.180 I've had students ask me,

00:34:18.540 what's a Republican

00:34:20.480 versus a Democrat?

00:34:21.580 And you're like,

00:34:22.000 you're a senior in high school,

00:34:23.020 we need to,

00:34:23.560 let's talk about it.

00:34:24.520 And then we can kill

00:34:25.380 two birds with one stone

00:34:26.440 and then we'll have

00:34:27.320 stuff to edit,

00:34:28.780 you know,

00:34:29.200 and it's things

00:34:29.800 that interest you.

00:34:30.600 So if we're going to,

00:34:31.240 we need footage to edit.

00:34:33.200 Might as well

00:34:33.840 make it interesting.

00:34:35.460 And if we can make it,

00:34:37.760 if we can talk about

00:34:38.680 something that actually

00:34:39.480 matters in the world

00:34:40.320 and you can learn

00:34:40.920 something from it,

00:34:41.760 well, why not?

00:34:43.280 You can't learn

00:34:44.260 to edit footage

00:34:45.740 without having

00:34:46.680 something interesting

00:34:47.760 that you're interested in

00:34:48.840 because there's

00:34:49.600 nothing to edit.

00:34:51.080 And you could just

00:34:52.100 film music videos

00:34:53.140 and things,

00:34:53.760 but I see more utility.

00:34:56.560 And if a student

00:34:57.220 wants to discuss

00:34:58.280 something like that,

00:34:59.220 I see no.

00:35:00.100 That was my reasoning

00:35:00.900 behind it.

00:35:02.400 Well, that's especially

00:35:03.160 relevant with regards

00:35:04.160 to editing

00:35:04.620 because you want to

00:35:05.540 clip and cut

00:35:06.560 so that you get

00:35:07.280 to the gist of the matter.

00:35:08.340 And that means

00:35:09.240 there has to be

00:35:09.820 something there

00:35:10.400 to focus on.

00:35:12.400 So if you're watching,

00:35:14.180 if a student is watching,

00:35:15.320 they shoot a music video

00:35:16.380 and they're watching

00:35:16.860 themselves playback,

00:35:17.880 dancing,

00:35:18.240 and they're editing that,

00:35:19.500 okay, but when you

00:35:20.400 watch yourself

00:35:21.120 speaking,

00:35:23.820 debating,

00:35:24.620 or just,

00:35:26.280 you're learning

00:35:27.360 those oratory skills,

00:35:29.860 you're getting over

00:35:30.700 public speaking

00:35:31.560 fright,

00:35:33.280 there's more utility,

00:35:35.800 I believe,

00:35:36.300 than simply,

00:35:37.980 there's nothing wrong

00:35:38.740 if a student wants

00:35:39.460 to do something

00:35:40.200 like a music video.

00:35:41.220 Well, you could do

00:35:41.680 something creative too,

00:35:42.760 but even then,

00:35:43.460 it's got to have a point.

00:35:45.600 Why not encapsulate

00:35:46.740 as much as possible

00:35:47.540 if our objective

00:35:48.760 is to use

00:35:50.460 what we have

00:35:51.140 to help students

00:35:51.860 as best we can?

00:35:54.120 Well,

00:35:54.780 obviously,

00:35:55.760 also,

00:35:56.460 the technique

00:35:57.900 that you're using,

00:35:58.860 so to speak,

00:35:59.500 insofar as it's

00:36:00.240 a technique,

00:36:01.440 is asking

00:36:02.580 pertinent questions,

00:36:04.620 there isn't any

00:36:05.300 difference between

00:36:05.920 that and teaching

00:36:06.540 people how to think

00:36:07.460 because if you're

00:36:08.700 thinking,

00:36:09.220 you're asking

00:36:09.760 yourself pertinent

00:36:10.960 questions,

00:36:11.660 and you're certainly

00:36:12.480 not going to learn

00:36:13.020 to do that

00:36:13.540 without an example.

00:36:15.140 The whole point

00:36:15.800 of being a teacher

00:36:16.520 is to,

00:36:17.360 or at least

00:36:17.900 one of the main

00:36:18.500 points of being

00:36:19.080 a teacher,

00:36:19.660 is to teach people

00:36:21.680 how to ask

00:36:22.320 themselves pertinent

00:36:23.300 questions and to

00:36:24.200 model that.

00:36:25.760 So,

00:36:26.180 why do you think,

00:36:28.720 so it's interesting

00:36:30.200 that it was the

00:36:30.980 conversation about

00:36:31.860 J.K. Rowling

00:36:32.620 that went viral,

00:36:33.560 and she certainly

00:36:34.420 caused an endless

00:36:36.840 stream of political

00:36:37.860 upset in the U.K.,

00:36:39.520 turned into quite a

00:36:41.060 stunning advocate

00:36:41.720 for free speech,

00:36:42.600 and she has,

00:36:43.960 in fact,

00:36:44.300 focused on this

00:36:45.220 trans issue,

00:36:46.400 which is likely

00:36:47.780 the most bizarre

00:36:48.800 issue that's ever

00:36:49.900 dominated the

00:36:50.660 political space,

00:36:51.480 as far as I can tell,

00:36:53.120 and I guess

00:36:54.560 one of the things

00:36:55.720 that your video

00:36:56.320 demonstrated was

00:36:57.400 the pertinence

00:36:58.400 of that issue

00:37:00.020 to students

00:37:01.720 who have

00:37:03.840 questionable

00:37:04.320 reasons for being

00:37:05.260 concerned about it

00:37:06.020 to begin with.

00:37:07.040 Why do you think

00:37:08.740 that this particular

00:37:09.620 student was

00:37:11.380 possessed by

00:37:12.220 the belief

00:37:12.760 that transphobia

00:37:14.800 was a thing

00:37:15.940 to begin with,

00:37:16.760 because that's also

00:37:17.560 a bastardization

00:37:18.520 of words

00:37:19.040 in the most

00:37:20.000 manipulative

00:37:20.920 possible way,

00:37:22.000 to take a

00:37:22.860 clinical terminology,

00:37:24.480 phobia,

00:37:25.120 and then to

00:37:25.840 append it to

00:37:26.680 objection to

00:37:28.040 anything that

00:37:28.900 the person

00:37:29.440 who's objecting,

00:37:30.740 or what would

00:37:31.540 you say,

00:37:32.080 I can object

00:37:33.840 to something,

00:37:34.800 if someone's

00:37:35.380 irritated about

00:37:36.100 that,

00:37:36.480 they're going

00:37:36.840 to medicalize

00:37:37.900 my objection

00:37:38.840 and describe

00:37:39.880 it as a

00:37:40.300 pathology.

00:37:41.020 That's what

00:37:41.380 happens when

00:37:41.920 you use the

00:37:42.440 term phobia.

00:37:43.740 It's unbelievably

00:37:44.940 manipulative,

00:37:45.840 and I would say

00:37:46.360 the radical

00:37:46.840 leftists are

00:37:47.540 stunningly good

00:37:49.000 at that

00:37:49.400 manipulation

00:37:49.880 of language.

00:37:50.920 But now

00:37:51.180 you have a

00:37:51.640 student who

00:37:52.320 is objecting

00:37:54.060 to J.K.

00:37:54.940 Rowling on

00:37:55.620 the basis

00:37:56.220 of transphobia,

00:37:57.540 and you're

00:37:57.900 asking questions

00:37:58.800 about it.

00:37:59.280 Now, is that

00:38:00.020 part of what

00:38:00.780 also got you?

00:38:01.580 It's obviously

00:38:02.160 one of the

00:38:02.680 things that

00:38:03.040 made this

00:38:03.380 go viral,

00:38:04.260 but was it

00:38:05.180 also one of

00:38:05.760 the things

00:38:06.080 that got

00:38:06.400 you in

00:38:06.740 trouble?

00:38:08.040 Well, there's

00:38:08.340 no way for

00:38:08.820 me to know

00:38:10.240 exactly.

00:38:11.660 I think that

00:38:12.220 in a,

00:38:13.900 I think there's

00:38:14.640 a, as you

00:38:15.540 know, most

00:38:15.920 things in life

00:38:16.460 are far more

00:38:17.060 complex than

00:38:18.200 a singular

00:38:18.640 explanation.

00:38:19.740 I think that

00:38:20.480 a lot of it

00:38:21.140 was the

00:38:21.780 virality

00:38:22.540 itself, given

00:38:25.340 that we're a

00:38:26.480 school where

00:38:27.020 there are some

00:38:27.740 loose practices.

00:38:29.200 There's been

00:38:29.800 things like the

00:38:30.940 two principals

00:38:31.880 just being

00:38:32.340 removed.

00:38:33.480 There was a

00:38:34.120 tax scandal

00:38:34.920 a few years

00:38:35.600 prior to my

00:38:36.180 arrival.

00:38:37.800 Because we

00:38:38.340 have, the way

00:38:38.940 grades are

00:38:39.480 assigned, often

00:38:40.300 it's the

00:38:41.180 site sitting

00:38:41.740 there, it's

00:38:42.100 like, okay,

00:38:42.500 what's Jimmy

00:38:43.000 going to get

00:38:43.500 in your

00:38:43.800 class?

00:38:45.620 Give him

00:38:45.940 like a

00:38:46.400 73.

00:38:47.800 And there's

00:38:48.380 no record,

00:38:49.800 there's no

00:38:50.100 reasoning to

00:38:50.800 it, and

00:38:51.260 that's literally

00:38:51.860 how it

00:38:52.340 occurs.

00:38:53.780 So, why

00:38:55.060 did they

00:38:55.420 offer me

00:38:55.900 $9,000 to

00:38:57.240 shut up, or

00:38:59.560 why, to

00:39:00.020 sign this, and

00:39:00.940 like, why

00:39:02.160 do you need

00:39:02.580 an NDA?

00:39:03.500 It's, so

00:39:04.020 it's, there's...

00:39:06.560 So, there

00:39:07.260 was worry

00:39:07.760 about potential

00:39:09.180 public attention.

00:39:10.800 Well, you can

00:39:11.260 understand, I

00:39:11.920 mean, the

00:39:12.560 school that

00:39:13.060 you're operating

00:39:13.640 in is

00:39:14.260 insanely

00:39:15.100 complex.

00:39:16.060 There's

00:39:16.380 absolutely no

00:39:17.440 way to run

00:39:17.920 a school like

00:39:18.420 that that

00:39:18.780 isn't full of

00:39:19.640 trouble, obviously,

00:39:21.260 because the

00:39:21.680 whole school's

00:39:22.260 built on

00:39:22.680 trouble, and

00:39:23.180 so I can

00:39:24.220 imagine that

00:39:24.860 the people who

00:39:25.360 are running

00:39:25.680 the school

00:39:26.080 would be

00:39:26.440 nervous about

00:39:27.040 that, because

00:39:27.520 I can't

00:39:28.040 possibly see

00:39:28.740 that there's

00:39:29.160 any way that

00:39:29.680 you could do

00:39:30.140 it right, right?

00:39:31.560 I mean...

00:39:32.140 That's a good

00:39:32.540 point.

00:39:32.940 Well, you

00:39:33.320 mentioned that

00:39:34.020 teachers come

00:39:34.660 for one day

00:39:35.280 and they

00:39:35.560 leave, or

00:39:35.900 they come

00:39:36.220 for a week.

00:39:36.760 It's a system

00:39:39.880 designed to

00:39:41.120 collate chaos

00:39:43.240 and to try

00:39:43.960 to produce

00:39:44.380 some sort

00:39:44.860 of order, but

00:39:45.480 it seems to

00:39:46.220 me to be

00:39:46.600 entirely

00:39:47.160 impossible.

00:39:48.100 Pretty much, no

00:39:48.640 matter what

00:39:49.020 you do, you're

00:39:49.540 going to do

00:39:50.460 something wrong.

00:39:51.560 I mean, how

00:39:52.160 the hell could

00:39:52.760 you possibly

00:39:53.340 avoid it?

00:39:54.020 Every single

00:39:54.700 one of those

00:39:55.180 kids is a

00:39:55.820 pitfall, and

00:39:57.020 I don't mean

00:39:57.580 that in the...

00:39:59.100 That's not a

00:40:00.140 criticism, it's

00:40:01.340 just...

00:40:01.760 Well, the

00:40:02.600 system's designed

00:40:03.580 so that

00:40:04.040 every single

00:40:04.540 kid that

00:40:04.960 comes there

00:40:05.440 is trouble

00:40:07.100 on stilts, and

00:40:08.760 so...

00:40:09.520 And then you're

00:40:10.520 also going to

00:40:11.120 have the case

00:40:11.640 that many of

00:40:12.540 the teachers

00:40:13.020 who are going

00:40:13.540 to apply are

00:40:14.240 going to be

00:40:14.700 people who

00:40:15.160 are applying

00:40:15.600 to that

00:40:15.980 school because

00:40:16.500 it's a

00:40:16.900 last-ditch

00:40:17.580 possibility.

00:40:19.820 And so...

00:40:20.560 I often...

00:40:21.960 Yeah, you

00:40:24.100 often...

00:40:24.960 I wondered

00:40:27.040 that sometimes.

00:40:27.760 I'm like, why

00:40:28.160 am I here?

00:40:28.760 I mean, the

00:40:29.000 health insurance

00:40:29.540 is awful.

00:40:30.600 It's like,

00:40:31.520 pay is not...

00:40:33.580 Why choose?

00:40:34.980 That's why

00:40:35.380 people leave.

00:40:36.280 But there's a

00:40:37.820 lot of good

00:40:38.480 people there

00:40:39.140 that aren't...

00:40:40.300 It's not like

00:40:40.780 this is the

00:40:41.220 bottom of the

00:40:41.700 barrel, teachers

00:40:42.380 that can't...

00:40:42.760 There are some

00:40:43.240 of those.

00:40:44.040 It's like, dude,

00:40:44.660 what are you

00:40:44.920 doing?

00:40:45.040 Right, there'd

00:40:45.440 be some of

00:40:45.960 those, yes.

00:40:46.720 But there are

00:40:47.220 also many good

00:40:49.580 people that are

00:40:50.520 doing it because

00:40:51.740 there's something

00:40:52.220 fulfilling about

00:40:53.420 it that I miss,

00:40:54.880 to be honest.

00:40:56.540 There's...

00:40:57.220 I miss it.

00:40:58.680 I think what

00:40:59.940 drew my attention

00:41:00.800 to your video

00:41:01.940 and also what

00:41:03.120 made me want

00:41:04.040 to talk to

00:41:04.500 you is because

00:41:05.140 I think the

00:41:06.340 reason that

00:41:06.820 that video

00:41:07.420 went viral

00:41:08.460 and drew the

00:41:10.420 attention of

00:41:12.160 the people

00:41:12.680 whose attention

00:41:13.760 it did draw

00:41:14.500 was because

00:41:15.220 you were

00:41:16.360 obviously very

00:41:17.580 sane and

00:41:18.220 careful in an

00:41:20.180 insane situation

00:41:21.180 discussing something

00:41:22.160 utterly preposterous.

00:41:24.120 And it was all

00:41:25.520 of that contrast

00:41:26.340 that made it

00:41:27.460 fascinating.

00:41:28.240 I mean, the

00:41:31.100 fact that that

00:41:31.760 issue even

00:41:32.400 arose in a

00:41:33.180 school is

00:41:34.060 ridiculous under

00:41:35.400 anything approximating

00:41:37.200 normal times.

00:41:39.340 And yet you

00:41:39.960 handled it

00:41:40.780 carefully and

00:41:43.100 thoughtfully and

00:41:44.000 you did it in a

00:41:44.640 way that was

00:41:45.420 obviously of

00:41:46.240 educational benefit

00:41:47.360 to the students.

00:41:49.540 And none of

00:41:51.400 that should be

00:41:52.100 surprising,

00:41:53.000 actually, like

00:41:53.840 the manner in

00:41:55.120 which you

00:41:55.400 addressed it.

00:41:56.020 But it's also

00:41:57.960 the fact that

00:41:58.720 that sane

00:41:59.320 response to

00:42:00.100 that question

00:42:00.700 is surprising

00:42:01.640 in the education

00:42:02.460 system that

00:42:03.140 made it go

00:42:03.660 viral.

00:42:05.160 And so,

00:42:05.860 because we're

00:42:06.640 so accustomed

00:42:07.600 to seeing

00:42:09.600 crazily woke,

00:42:12.460 ideologically

00:42:13.100 possessed,

00:42:13.980 ranting

00:42:14.340 narcissists acting

00:42:16.000 as teachers,

00:42:17.600 ideologically

00:42:18.360 addling children

00:42:19.700 when they ask

00:42:20.460 questions that

00:42:21.160 they should have

00:42:21.780 no concern

00:42:22.400 about whatsoever.

00:42:23.800 Like, it just

00:42:24.440 strikes me as

00:42:25.360 utterly preposterous

00:42:26.380 that a 15-year-old

00:42:28.000 kid would think

00:42:28.980 that it was

00:42:29.520 necessary for him

00:42:30.600 to accuse

00:42:31.620 J.K. Rowling

00:42:32.480 of transphobia.

00:42:34.100 17.

00:42:34.800 17.

00:42:35.520 Okay, so that's

00:42:36.440 just an indication

00:42:38.160 of the state

00:42:39.040 of the school

00:42:40.160 system in general.

00:42:41.300 I don't think he

00:42:41.760 was even

00:42:42.380 accusing her.

00:42:43.420 I think he was

00:42:43.720 just repeating

00:42:44.440 what he thought

00:42:45.060 was reality.

00:42:45.760 Of course,

00:42:46.320 of course,

00:42:46.920 of course,

00:42:47.840 exactly.

00:42:48.320 Well, you said

00:42:48.860 that as you

00:42:50.000 investigated with,

00:42:51.340 you know,

00:42:51.940 some relatively

00:42:52.780 elementary,

00:42:54.280 but also

00:42:55.060 eminently

00:42:55.700 sane questions,

00:42:56.820 that revealed

00:42:57.680 itself very

00:42:58.340 quickly.

00:42:58.980 He was just

00:42:59.740 spouting the

00:43:01.140 cliches of the

00:43:02.040 moment, right?

00:43:02.980 The radical

00:43:03.460 cliches of the

00:43:04.260 moment.

00:43:04.620 And was he

00:43:05.240 doing that

00:43:05.640 because he

00:43:06.040 thought he

00:43:06.440 should?

00:43:07.120 Like, what

00:43:07.600 was your

00:43:08.180 impression of

00:43:08.820 the reasons

00:43:09.280 for his

00:43:09.660 questions?

00:43:10.340 He genuinely

00:43:10.960 believed that

00:43:11.700 that was

00:43:12.480 what the

00:43:13.420 truth was.

00:43:14.480 He thought

00:43:14.700 that was

00:43:14.900 reality.

00:43:15.660 He articulates

00:43:16.900 that.

00:43:17.260 I've heard

00:43:17.880 many classmates

00:43:18.620 state this,

00:43:19.320 so it must

00:43:19.720 be true.

00:43:20.620 In the same

00:43:21.260 way, you hear

00:43:21.700 this often

00:43:22.300 with people.

00:43:23.520 I just made

00:43:24.440 a critique

00:43:24.880 video with

00:43:25.560 Barry Weiss

00:43:26.020 doing this.

00:43:26.460 I was a

00:43:26.660 little hard

00:43:27.020 on her,

00:43:27.900 on Joe

00:43:28.680 Rogan,

00:43:29.200 and she's

00:43:29.600 saying it's

00:43:30.840 the same

00:43:31.140 pattern.

00:43:31.760 She's applying

00:43:32.440 this to

00:43:32.720 Lacey Gabbard

00:43:33.400 and he

00:43:35.140 presses her

00:43:35.900 on it

00:43:36.140 slightly and

00:43:37.260 it dissolves.

00:43:39.700 And we

00:43:40.400 all are

00:43:41.180 capable of

00:43:41.780 doing,

00:43:41.960 we all do

00:43:42.840 do this

00:43:43.380 in our

00:43:43.820 lives.

00:43:44.160 I'm not

00:43:44.520 above it,

00:43:45.800 but no

00:43:46.580 one's above

00:43:47.080 it.

00:43:47.480 No one's

00:43:47.800 above it.

00:43:48.140 We seek

00:43:51.220 to establish

00:43:52.080 consensus

00:43:52.920 rapidly and

00:43:54.020 radically.

00:43:55.100 And if

00:43:55.600 there's no

00:43:56.180 challenge to

00:43:56.680 the consensus,

00:43:57.360 that's good

00:43:57.800 because it

00:43:58.200 means that

00:43:58.560 we're unified,

00:43:59.260 but it

00:43:59.640 also means

00:44:00.120 that we

00:44:00.440 can build

00:44:00.840 a false

00:44:01.580 consensus.

00:44:02.720 And that

00:44:03.120 happens

00:44:03.440 continually.

00:44:04.680 And I

00:44:05.500 mean,

00:44:05.640 that's one

00:44:05.960 of the

00:44:06.140 dangers of

00:44:06.680 so-called

00:44:07.360 populism,

00:44:08.200 is that

00:44:08.440 it's a

00:44:09.400 false

00:44:09.840 consensus,

00:44:10.680 right?

00:44:10.840 It's a

00:44:11.080 consensus

00:44:11.460 of the

00:44:11.880 moment.

00:44:12.220 It's got

00:44:12.460 no staying

00:44:13.000 power.

00:44:13.620 It can't

00:44:14.220 iterate

00:44:14.500 across time.

00:44:16.160 The

00:44:16.340 antidote

00:44:16.900 to

00:44:17.200 populist

00:44:18.560 consensus

00:44:19.100 is something

00:44:19.760 like alignment

00:44:20.820 with eternal

00:44:21.660 tradition,

00:44:22.500 because it

00:44:23.200 stops the

00:44:23.920 proclivity for

00:44:24.960 rapid consensus

00:44:26.360 from pathologizing.

00:44:28.260 I mean,

00:44:28.460 it's actually a

00:44:29.040 good thing,

00:44:29.560 all things

00:44:29.980 considered,

00:44:30.520 because if

00:44:30.940 human beings

00:44:31.460 couldn't reach

00:44:32.500 agreement on

00:44:34.020 most things

00:44:34.620 rapidly,

00:44:35.360 all we would

00:44:36.060 ever do is

00:44:36.540 fight.

00:44:38.140 But the

00:44:40.100 danger,

00:44:40.560 of course,

00:44:40.880 is a false

00:44:41.420 consensus.

00:44:42.480 And that's

00:44:43.100 obviously what

00:44:43.760 you were

00:44:44.080 questioning.

00:44:44.940 And you

00:44:45.160 did it in

00:44:46.700 an extremely

00:44:47.300 thoughtful

00:44:47.780 manner.

00:44:48.720 Okay,

00:44:48.960 so you

00:44:50.400 recorded that.

00:44:51.320 Your students

00:44:51.720 edited it?

00:44:53.140 How did it

00:44:53.620 end up

00:44:54.480 edited?

00:44:55.440 There was

00:44:57.000 one edit

00:44:57.460 when he

00:44:58.000 takes out

00:44:58.360 his phone

00:44:58.800 because he's

00:44:59.300 looking for

00:44:59.820 the tweet

00:45:00.900 for a few,

00:45:02.260 maybe a

00:45:02.860 minute.

00:45:03.700 And so I

00:45:04.400 cut that

00:45:05.160 out and

00:45:07.160 uploaded it

00:45:07.980 to my

00:45:09.100 YouTube

00:45:09.360 channel.

00:45:09.740 I had been

00:45:11.660 uploading everything

00:45:12.280 in the past.

00:45:13.340 Right,

00:45:13.720 so this

00:45:14.040 was just

00:45:14.460 standard

00:45:15.080 practice on

00:45:15.800 your YouTube.

00:45:16.080 You have to

00:45:16.440 be very

00:45:16.760 careful about

00:45:17.320 what you

00:45:17.640 upload to

00:45:18.140 YouTube,

00:45:18.740 as I

00:45:19.180 found out

00:45:19.600 in 2016.

00:45:21.300 Right,

00:45:21.840 because it's

00:45:22.540 an unbelievably

00:45:23.100 powerful technology

00:45:24.340 and you never

00:45:24.940 know what's

00:45:25.380 going to

00:45:25.740 happen.

00:45:26.740 So,

00:45:27.460 as you

00:45:27.940 also found

00:45:29.080 out.

00:45:29.740 And so,

00:45:30.420 okay,

00:45:30.800 so you

00:45:31.180 uploaded this

00:45:32.180 and I

00:45:33.040 presume you

00:45:33.620 thought nothing

00:45:34.200 of it.

00:45:35.120 Okay,

00:45:35.460 what happened?

00:45:36.940 Lay out the

00:45:37.720 story.

00:45:38.020 It started

00:45:38.600 getting a

00:45:39.080 few views

00:45:39.640 and then

00:45:40.980 it got

00:45:42.260 13,000

00:45:44.500 views.

00:45:44.920 The music

00:45:45.280 teacher I

00:45:46.480 was telling

00:45:46.740 you about

00:45:47.160 who had

00:45:49.180 been on

00:45:50.180 this journey

00:45:50.700 with me in

00:45:51.180 a way,

00:45:51.700 we were

00:45:51.980 exploring this

00:45:52.620 technology,

00:45:53.660 even making

00:45:54.600 videos where

00:45:55.120 there was no

00:45:56.040 students on

00:45:56.640 our free

00:45:56.980 time,

00:45:57.240 like the

00:45:57.440 Fibonacci

00:45:57.840 sequence in

00:45:58.360 music was

00:45:58.900 just two

00:46:00.080 of us.

00:46:00.820 Uh-huh.

00:46:02.220 He texts

00:46:03.200 me, he says

00:46:03.660 he's got 13,000

00:46:04.540 views.

00:46:04.940 Oh, for me,

00:46:05.560 that's whoa.

00:46:06.200 And over

00:46:06.520 what period of

00:46:07.200 time?

00:46:07.480 Maybe, uh,

00:46:08.560 this is probably

00:46:09.000 like a week,

00:46:10.100 two weeks.

00:46:11.440 Okay, right.

00:46:12.300 That afternoon,

00:46:15.020 I get a text

00:46:15.640 from my brother

00:46:16.340 and he says

00:46:17.700 Elon Musk

00:46:18.560 tweeted a

00:46:19.100 video of

00:46:20.020 you.

00:46:20.540 Oh, yeah.

00:46:21.300 I thought

00:46:21.900 there's the

00:46:22.320 kiss of death.

00:46:23.100 Ha, ha, ha.

00:46:25.080 Right.

00:46:27.380 And I

00:46:28.320 didn't, I

00:46:28.800 hadn't opened

00:46:29.680 my Twitter

00:46:30.160 account since

00:46:30.920 that Neshoba

00:46:31.600 school, so I

00:46:32.600 couldn't log in.

00:46:33.360 I didn't have

00:46:33.700 my password and

00:46:34.560 figure it out

00:46:35.680 and I was

00:46:35.900 like, let me,

00:46:36.520 any, oh,

00:46:38.480 whoa, okay.

00:46:41.240 I don't know.

00:46:42.240 That was, then

00:46:43.500 two days later,

00:46:44.700 well, then I go

00:46:45.180 to school the

00:46:45.680 next day.

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00:47:58.760 Don't say a

00:47:59.560 word.

00:47:59.800 I'm like, I'm

00:48:00.320 just gonna not

00:48:00.760 say anything.

00:48:01.940 Maybe no one

00:48:02.560 saw it.

00:48:03.180 I don't really

00:48:04.020 comprehend what's

00:48:04.980 going on with

00:48:05.520 there.

00:48:07.280 When you're in

00:48:08.060 it, it

00:48:08.440 doesn't.

00:48:09.960 The principal

00:48:10.620 calls me in

00:48:11.220 his office.

00:48:13.560 He's like, yeah,

00:48:15.660 not talking about

00:48:16.860 it is not gonna

00:48:17.960 work.

00:48:18.580 Like, everybody's

00:48:19.520 seen the video.

00:48:21.840 He was on the

00:48:24.360 fence of how to

00:48:25.160 feel about it.

00:48:26.680 Yeah.

00:48:26.920 Because he was

00:48:27.180 obviously worried,

00:48:28.200 as anyone would

00:48:28.820 be about his

00:48:30.380 responsibilities and

00:48:31.660 getting in trouble

00:48:32.240 with the higher

00:48:33.320 ups.

00:48:34.000 Is this against

00:48:35.100 the policy?

00:48:35.820 We have releases.

00:48:37.460 I have the

00:48:38.020 releases where

00:48:38.660 there's no student

00:48:39.560 on camera.

00:48:40.560 We have an audio

00:48:41.660 release.

00:48:43.280 It's...

00:48:43.760 And you'd be

00:48:44.840 doing this anyway.

00:48:45.920 I've been doing

00:48:46.400 this for a while.

00:48:47.600 But this is

00:48:49.780 different.

00:48:51.400 And I think it's

00:48:52.800 totally understandable

00:48:53.500 to be a little

00:48:54.900 shocked.

00:48:56.960 We're in new

00:48:57.820 territory here.

00:48:58.680 Yeah, right.

00:49:00.320 Pierce Morgan's

00:49:01.400 team reaches out.

00:49:02.900 Would you like to

00:49:03.540 come on Pierce

00:49:04.200 Morgan tomorrow?

00:49:06.660 Uh-huh.

00:49:07.820 Well, I'm at a

00:49:10.020 crossroads.

00:49:10.720 It's like, do I

00:49:12.740 run with this as

00:49:13.900 far as...

00:49:14.280 There's two options.

00:49:16.060 Let it pass over.

00:49:17.620 Go back to my

00:49:18.240 life.

00:49:18.760 Or I recognize...

00:49:19.240 Maybe.

00:49:19.980 Maybe go back to

00:49:21.020 your life.

00:49:21.440 Or I recognize

00:49:23.580 that this is a

00:49:24.700 once-in-a-lifetime.

00:49:26.220 Potentially.

00:49:27.380 I don't know what

00:49:28.200 it means, where it

00:49:29.120 could go.

00:49:29.960 If it's...

00:49:30.480 But it could be an

00:49:31.460 opportunity.

00:49:32.020 There's only one way

00:49:32.700 to find out, and

00:49:33.300 that's to run with

00:49:33.880 it.

00:49:34.960 Well, if I say...

00:49:36.020 I know this much

00:49:36.760 from my life and

00:49:37.480 regret.

00:49:38.060 If I say no to

00:49:39.280 this going on

00:49:40.300 Pierce Morgan, which

00:49:40.900 could go badly,

00:49:42.360 I might regret this

00:49:43.000 thing, but I know

00:49:44.180 I will regret it

00:49:45.340 forever.

00:49:46.160 How did you know

00:49:46.880 that?

00:49:47.380 Why did you

00:49:47.860 conclude that?

00:49:48.680 Because I have

00:49:49.080 regretted things in

00:49:49.900 my life before.

00:49:51.440 I know that

00:49:52.540 regret...

00:49:53.580 It's worse to

00:49:55.100 try something and

00:49:56.520 to fail in the

00:49:57.180 pursuit of that.

00:49:57.800 I would rather try

00:49:58.700 and run with this

00:49:59.480 ball as far as I

00:50:00.440 can, take it as

00:50:01.180 far as I can

00:50:01.980 until I get

00:50:02.560 tackled, than

00:50:04.340 to refuse to

00:50:06.260 pick it up.

00:50:07.920 Yeah, well, you

00:50:08.740 know, there is

00:50:09.740 clinical evidence

00:50:11.020 for that.

00:50:11.920 If you ask

00:50:12.840 people, older

00:50:14.560 people, to look

00:50:16.220 back on their

00:50:16.720 life and to

00:50:18.360 list their

00:50:18.840 regrets, it's

00:50:21.300 much more

00:50:21.800 common for

00:50:22.400 them to have

00:50:23.100 serious regrets

00:50:23.860 about chances

00:50:25.000 they didn't

00:50:25.540 take than

00:50:26.880 failures that

00:50:28.120 they experienced.

00:50:32.000 The thing

00:50:32.300 about failure is

00:50:33.740 a weird thing,

00:50:34.560 you know, because

00:50:35.120 my experience in

00:50:36.900 life has been

00:50:37.640 that nothing I

00:50:38.620 ever actually did

00:50:39.800 failed.

00:50:41.760 I didn't

00:50:42.600 necessarily...

00:50:43.440 It didn't

00:50:43.920 necessarily produce

00:50:44.980 the result that I

00:50:46.200 intended when I

00:50:48.000 intended it.

00:50:48.900 But if it was a

00:50:50.200 genuine effort

00:50:51.160 and I

00:50:52.960 followed through

00:50:54.120 on it, there

00:50:55.000 was some benefit

00:50:56.020 that emerged in

00:50:56.960 consequence of

00:50:57.720 that that

00:50:58.360 justified the

00:51:00.020 effort.

00:51:00.540 And sometimes

00:51:01.100 that was quite a

00:51:02.220 long time later.

00:51:03.680 And I think

00:51:04.320 that kind of

00:51:05.320 stands to reason

00:51:06.080 in a sense,

00:51:06.760 too, because

00:51:07.180 the alternative

00:51:08.840 explanation would

00:51:09.900 be that you

00:51:10.520 could try to do

00:51:12.860 something difficult

00:51:13.660 well and see it

00:51:15.060 through and there'd

00:51:16.460 be zero impact

00:51:17.500 of that.

00:51:18.400 Well, that

00:51:19.520 makes no sense.

00:51:20.840 You're going to

00:51:21.200 learn something.

00:51:22.800 Maybe what you

00:51:24.680 learn is how

00:51:25.360 you could have

00:51:25.860 done it better

00:51:26.460 or how you

00:51:26.940 could do it

00:51:27.500 better, but

00:51:28.200 you're going to

00:51:28.460 learn something.

00:51:29.560 Okay, so

00:51:29.960 what kind of

00:51:31.800 regrets had you

00:51:32.680 had in the

00:51:33.220 past?

00:51:33.860 If you don't

00:51:34.380 mind, maybe you

00:51:35.260 can share some

00:51:35.900 of those, maybe

00:51:36.440 not, but what

00:51:37.260 came to mind?

00:51:39.520 My original

00:51:42.000 plan was movies.

00:51:44.220 All I wanted to

00:51:45.040 do growing up

00:51:45.640 was make

00:51:46.520 movies.

00:51:46.960 There was

00:51:47.080 nothing more

00:51:47.540 exciting than

00:51:48.420 seeing people

00:51:49.120 be able to

00:51:49.980 alter time and

00:51:51.520 space.

00:51:51.920 It's like they

00:51:52.280 were using the

00:51:52.940 fabric of reality

00:51:53.760 to create worlds

00:51:54.700 which are real

00:51:56.780 when you're

00:51:57.200 watching it.

00:51:58.100 You've explored

00:51:58.840 this idea.

00:52:00.040 And the

00:52:00.940 logical course of

00:52:03.100 action, what

00:52:03.580 else would I

00:52:04.000 possibly want to

00:52:05.080 do than that?

00:52:07.080 There was nothing

00:52:07.500 more exciting.

00:52:08.740 And I was

00:52:09.180 undergrad, one of

00:52:10.140 the top film

00:52:11.180 schools in the

00:52:11.860 country, UNC

00:52:12.420 School of the

00:52:12.940 Arts, and I

00:52:14.120 excelled and I

00:52:14.860 was nailing

00:52:16.720 these opportunities

00:52:17.580 and it kind of

00:52:19.180 got to my

00:52:19.680 head.

00:52:20.820 I found

00:52:22.480 short film

00:52:23.480 after short

00:52:24.060 film, suddenly

00:52:24.820 it's in a

00:52:26.680 pattern that

00:52:27.260 had not

00:52:27.700 going to

00:52:30.000 LA, like

00:52:30.540 writing and

00:52:31.700 producing a

00:52:32.260 feature film

00:52:32.940 right out of

00:52:33.620 the gate, using

00:52:34.220 that momentum

00:52:34.820 with this team

00:52:36.620 of the students

00:52:37.920 that have come

00:52:38.480 together and

00:52:39.080 become this

00:52:39.520 pirate band

00:52:41.180 almost.

00:52:41.740 we raised

00:52:44.060 $25,000 to

00:52:45.480 make this

00:52:45.860 feature film

00:52:46.540 and we're

00:52:46.900 going to

00:52:47.340 camp out and

00:52:48.000 everyone's

00:52:48.360 going to

00:52:48.540 work for

00:52:48.900 free and

00:52:49.480 film it on

00:52:50.280 the farm

00:52:50.700 where I

00:52:50.960 grew up so

00:52:51.500 we can get

00:52:51.800 all the

00:52:52.020 locations for

00:52:52.720 free and it

00:52:53.200 would cost at

00:52:53.780 least a half a

00:52:54.920 million dollars

00:52:55.480 in production

00:52:55.960 value if you

00:52:56.560 were to do a

00:52:57.000 one-on-one

00:52:57.340 comparison because

00:52:58.380 everyone was

00:52:58.800 working for

00:52:59.280 free.

00:52:59.540 I feel like

00:53:03.800 I blew it

00:53:04.440 a lot.

00:53:04.980 I feel like I

00:53:05.400 blew a lot of

00:53:06.120 opportunities and

00:53:07.780 I'm trying to

00:53:08.100 think of any

00:53:08.340 specifics but in

00:53:09.180 general I did

00:53:11.560 come to the

00:53:11.960 realization that

00:53:12.660 LA is not

00:53:13.280 somewhere, LA

00:53:14.940 is not where I

00:53:15.500 want to live,

00:53:16.580 Hollywood is not

00:53:17.300 a game in which

00:53:17.900 I want to

00:53:18.340 participate for

00:53:19.760 the long term

00:53:20.560 so I knew I

00:53:22.600 wanted to get

00:53:23.940 out of that, I

00:53:24.920 didn't know what

00:53:25.380 I would do, I

00:53:26.940 went freelance

00:53:27.540 videography and

00:53:28.980 eventually graduate

00:53:29.700 school as it

00:53:30.280 took me to

00:53:30.600 graduate school

00:53:31.200 and I left

00:53:31.920 LA but those

00:53:34.420 students, the

00:53:36.260 colleagues, the

00:53:37.400 friends, making

00:53:40.160 a movie is

00:53:41.160 challenging, there's

00:53:42.980 a lot of, it

00:53:44.940 presses relationships

00:53:46.200 and this is a

00:53:47.620 deeper idea of

00:53:49.420 why that is

00:53:50.020 because often I

00:53:50.560 think there's some

00:53:51.020 people who are

00:53:51.340 subconsciously just

00:53:52.120 want it to be

00:53:52.600 over because when

00:53:53.400 you're making a

00:53:53.860 movie it takes

00:53:54.220 like a year and

00:53:55.380 then you have the

00:53:55.820 editor and he's

00:53:57.160 editing for, you

00:53:57.980 know, that's the

00:53:58.960 part that takes a

00:53:59.720 year, the

00:54:00.160 production itself a

00:54:01.100 month or two or

00:54:02.100 whatnot but then

00:54:02.920 it's just like this

00:54:03.800 has to be over and

00:54:04.840 there's so much

00:54:05.300 pressure and then

00:54:06.060 that causes people

00:54:06.780 to kind of dissolve

00:54:07.520 under the pressure

00:54:08.180 and it's like this

00:54:09.140 is a once-in-a-lifetime

00:54:10.140 opportunity, we're

00:54:10.820 never going to have

00:54:11.220 all these people

00:54:11.700 come together and

00:54:12.760 work for free.

00:54:14.160 Okay, so you saw

00:54:14.940 the same thing

00:54:15.880 beckoning there with

00:54:18.100 the Pierce Morgan

00:54:19.080 opportunity, obviously

00:54:20.380 that you, and it

00:54:21.820 is the case, I

00:54:22.520 mean, and this is

00:54:23.500 the case in life, is

00:54:24.440 that not now and

00:54:26.700 then something, many

00:54:28.940 impossible things come

00:54:30.240 together and a door

00:54:31.080 opens and if you

00:54:34.420 don't walk through it

00:54:35.180 then the probability

00:54:37.100 that those impossible

00:54:38.040 things will come

00:54:38.980 together again is zero

00:54:40.340 and so, okay, so you

00:54:42.380 decided to go on Pierce

00:54:43.380 Morgan, so what

00:54:44.160 happened?

00:54:45.300 It was just me for a

00:54:46.780 15-minute interview.

00:54:48.480 Okay.

00:54:48.880 At the end of a

00:54:49.280 segment.

00:54:49.820 Yeah.

00:54:50.040 So I'm in

00:54:52.260 Massachusetts in this

00:54:53.320 little town in the

00:54:54.100 woods.

00:54:55.400 I didn't know what

00:54:56.160 to expect.

00:54:56.760 I was like, is a

00:54:57.160 crew coming?

00:54:57.980 Like, what's going

00:54:58.440 on?

00:54:58.900 A guy in a van pulls

00:55:00.220 up to my house.

00:55:00.440 Oh, yeah, you had

00:55:01.120 to talk directly to

00:55:01.860 the camera, did you?

00:55:03.000 He's like, here, I'm

00:55:04.020 going to mic you up.

00:55:05.220 I don't know what's

00:55:06.200 going on.

00:55:06.700 No instructions.

00:55:07.740 He's like, I jump in

00:55:10.140 the back of a van right

00:55:11.540 after school.

00:55:12.220 So I'm at school

00:55:12.860 talking to the music

00:55:13.680 teacher.

00:55:14.060 I'm like, dude, they

00:55:15.260 want me to go on

00:55:15.680 Pierce Morgan.

00:55:16.200 I'm like, do you

00:55:17.460 think I'll get in

00:55:17.880 trouble if I do this?

00:55:19.260 And he's like,

00:55:20.040 you got to do it.

00:55:21.000 I got to do it.

00:55:22.020 Right, right.

00:55:22.680 And I said the same

00:55:23.360 thing I said to you.

00:55:24.800 And he said, just

00:55:25.480 don't.

00:55:26.060 It's better to ask for

00:55:27.020 forgiveness than for

00:55:28.140 permission.

00:55:28.680 Because I knew that if

00:55:29.760 I were to ask for

00:55:30.600 permission and they

00:55:31.500 were to say no, I'd

00:55:32.720 be in a predicament

00:55:33.400 now.

00:55:34.100 Right.

00:55:34.580 I'm not going to turn

00:55:35.600 that down because I

00:55:36.180 know what that feeling

00:55:36.940 would be.

00:55:38.020 Well, it's also not

00:55:39.080 the least bit obvious

00:55:40.100 that you're required

00:55:41.220 to ask for permission.

00:55:43.260 Besides that, this is

00:55:45.220 something that

00:55:45.700 everybody who's

00:55:46.320 watching and listening

00:55:47.140 should understand.

00:55:48.040 the answer to

00:55:50.600 if you go to

00:55:52.540 an authority,

00:55:53.520 especially a

00:55:54.080 bureaucratic authority,

00:55:54.960 and you ask for

00:55:56.740 permission, why

00:55:58.600 wouldn't they say

00:55:59.460 no?

00:56:00.600 All there is in it

00:56:01.700 for them is risk

00:56:02.700 and perhaps jealousy

00:56:04.960 and fear.

00:56:07.920 So why would,

00:56:09.440 of course, they're

00:56:10.080 going to say no.

00:56:11.520 Why wouldn't they

00:56:12.420 say no?

00:56:13.400 And so then you

00:56:14.120 think, well, how do

00:56:14.620 you deal with that?

00:56:15.220 The answer is, well,

00:56:16.680 you're a free agent.

00:56:18.440 What's the indication

00:56:20.980 that you're required

00:56:21.780 to ask for permission?

00:56:23.620 No, in fact, if it's

00:56:24.500 not illegal or if

00:56:26.400 you're not violating

00:56:27.120 your, you know, an

00:56:28.020 explicit, and really,

00:56:29.480 I mean explicit

00:56:30.300 contract, it's like,

00:56:32.480 don't ask.

00:56:34.020 It's hard enough to

00:56:34.840 convince yourself that

00:56:35.700 you should do it, much

00:56:36.420 less convince someone

00:56:37.340 else who's also not

00:56:38.260 going to benefit from

00:56:39.260 it in the least.

00:56:40.860 You know, the other

00:56:41.420 thing to understand,

00:56:42.220 too, is that

00:56:42.960 entrepreneurial

00:56:44.400 motivation is

00:56:45.680 relatively rare.

00:56:46.980 It's only about one

00:56:47.920 person in 50 who

00:56:49.080 wants to start their

00:56:49.920 own business.

00:56:51.200 I really learned this

00:56:52.980 when I started selling

00:56:54.280 to corporations and

00:56:55.580 dealing with middle

00:56:56.640 management people.

00:56:58.520 The fundamental

00:56:59.560 motivation of 95%

00:57:03.200 of people in middle

00:57:04.320 management is never

00:57:05.800 to do anything that

00:57:06.920 makes them get

00:57:07.760 noticed for any

00:57:08.940 reason, good or

00:57:10.340 bad.

00:57:10.820 they want to do

00:57:12.120 their job, they

00:57:12.980 want to do it in

00:57:13.660 complete and utter

00:57:15.220 invisibility.

00:57:16.840 And if an

00:57:17.200 entrepreneurial opportunity

00:57:18.840 comes along, they

00:57:20.200 say, that's risky,

00:57:22.220 no.

00:57:23.220 And you might say,

00:57:24.020 yeah, well, you know,

00:57:25.100 there's an immense

00:57:26.280 potential payoff.

00:57:28.780 Rather low probability,

00:57:30.960 immense potential

00:57:31.760 payoff.

00:57:32.260 That's the

00:57:32.660 entrepreneurial game.

00:57:33.560 And their attitude

00:57:34.480 is, I don't want

00:57:37.480 to be this marked

00:57:38.880 zebra that the

00:57:39.980 lions cut out of

00:57:40.820 the herd.

00:57:41.640 You know that story?

00:57:43.280 So, you know the

00:57:45.220 zebra story, I'll just

00:57:46.180 tell it for people who

00:57:47.060 might not have heard

00:57:47.740 it.

00:57:48.360 So, zebras in

00:57:50.180 principle are

00:57:50.740 camouflaged, but it's

00:57:52.040 kind of a weird idea

00:57:53.280 because they live on

00:57:54.660 the veld and they're

00:57:55.720 black and white

00:57:56.340 striped and you can

00:57:57.200 seriously see a

00:57:58.040 zebra.

00:57:58.720 So, the question is,

00:57:59.780 what's the

00:58:00.260 camouflage?

00:58:01.280 And the answer

00:58:01.900 seems to be that

00:58:02.820 it's against the

00:58:03.700 herd camouflage because

00:58:04.740 there's no single

00:58:05.800 zebras.

00:58:06.420 There's herds of

00:58:07.060 zebras.

00:58:07.520 And so, when the

00:58:08.740 zebras are milling

00:58:09.660 about together in a

00:58:10.640 herd, because the

00:58:12.080 black and white

00:58:12.720 stripes are edges, if

00:58:14.640 you look away and

00:58:15.420 then you look again,

00:58:16.600 you can't tell what

00:58:17.360 zebra you were

00:58:17.940 looking at.

00:58:18.800 Now, the reason

00:58:19.720 that's relevant is

00:58:20.620 because lions can't

00:58:22.100 organize themselves to

00:58:23.340 hunt a zebra unless

00:58:24.480 they can identify

00:58:25.560 one.

00:58:26.680 Okay, so you don't

00:58:27.540 want to be an

00:58:27.980 identifiable zebra.

00:58:29.340 So, biologists

00:58:30.080 discovered this

00:58:31.000 because they were

00:58:32.260 studying zebras and

00:58:33.940 trying to figure out

00:58:34.940 how to watch a given

00:58:36.020 zebra so they could

00:58:36.940 figure out what it

00:58:37.540 was up to, but they

00:58:38.580 lose track.

00:58:39.480 So, they would

00:58:40.600 either clip their

00:58:41.340 ears with a plastic

00:58:42.500 clip or put a dab of

00:58:43.840 paint on their

00:58:44.440 haunches.

00:58:44.980 And as soon as they

00:58:45.860 did that, the lions

00:58:46.640 killed them.

00:58:48.440 The lions could mark

00:58:49.420 out the zebra and

00:58:50.240 organize their hunt and

00:58:51.200 then that was a dead

00:58:52.040 zebra.

00:58:52.580 And, you know, you

00:58:53.180 hear that in the

00:58:54.320 natural world that

00:58:55.220 lions often cull the

00:58:56.780 herd and they take the

00:58:57.700 weak and the unfit.

00:58:59.320 It's like, no, they

00:59:00.120 take the identifiable

00:59:01.440 zebra.

00:59:02.360 And the instinct of

00:59:04.620 many, many people is

00:59:06.620 do not be the

00:59:07.740 identifiable prey animal.

00:59:09.860 Right.

00:59:10.440 And so, if you're going

00:59:11.020 to ask for permission,

00:59:12.700 even permission from

00:59:13.840 yourself in an odd way,

00:59:15.460 the default answer is

00:59:16.780 clearly no.

00:59:18.480 And so, and obviously

00:59:20.340 so.

00:59:21.220 And so, you're going to

00:59:22.220 have to step outside the

00:59:23.320 herd.

00:59:23.720 Now, the question with

00:59:24.920 human beings is, is

00:59:25.980 there advantages in

00:59:26.960 stepping outside the

00:59:27.880 herd and the

00:59:29.000 advantage is, well,

00:59:31.060 you get noticed.

00:59:32.720 And that's not so

00:59:33.880 good if there are

00:59:34.460 predators around, but

00:59:35.500 it's also the pathway

00:59:37.560 to extreme success,

00:59:39.760 which has massive

00:59:41.400 potential payoffs.

00:59:43.020 Now, I'm not saying

00:59:43.760 that everybody should

00:59:44.540 pursue that or that

00:59:45.360 everybody should want

00:59:46.240 it, but that's the

00:59:47.760 landscape of risk.

00:59:49.540 So, you decided you'd

00:59:51.000 already learned enough

00:59:52.780 in your life to know

00:59:53.720 that you don't

00:59:55.040 casually throw away

00:59:56.200 spectacular opportunities.

00:59:58.040 Yeah, right.

00:59:58.560 The pain of regret.

00:59:59.800 Yeah.

01:00:00.120 A unique form of pain.

01:00:02.260 Yes.

01:00:02.840 Yeah, well, it's a kind

01:00:03.880 of self-betrayal, right?

01:00:05.840 Because you had the

01:00:06.520 chance.

01:00:07.160 You had the opportunity.

01:00:07.780 Yes, that's what it was.

01:00:08.820 The door opened.

01:00:09.240 That's what I was trying

01:00:09.940 to put my finger on

01:00:11.800 earlier, and I had no

01:00:13.720 one to blame but myself

01:00:14.800 on how, like, that

01:00:15.360 would be turned out.

01:00:15.480 That's seriously annoying.

01:00:17.100 And that's what eats

01:00:18.040 you.

01:00:18.520 Yeah, right.

01:00:19.200 Definitely.

01:00:19.920 Definitely.

01:00:20.340 Well, it's bad enough

01:00:23.140 when someone else gets

01:00:24.180 in your way, but when

01:00:25.700 you get in your way,

01:00:26.800 it's like, well, how

01:00:28.320 do you?

01:00:28.680 Far worse.

01:00:29.760 Definitely.

01:00:30.500 Definitely.

01:00:31.720 You know, it's also

01:00:32.380 useful to know, too,

01:00:33.480 that I think this is

01:00:35.260 extremely useful, is

01:00:36.400 that you have to

01:00:37.620 deeply understand that

01:00:38.720 no risk is, first of

01:00:40.000 all, not desirable.

01:00:40.860 You actually don't want

01:00:41.660 a risk-free life.

01:00:42.780 You want the risks

01:00:44.640 you voluntarily take,

01:00:46.280 and maybe you want

01:00:47.000 high-stakes risks

01:00:48.680 you voluntarily take.

01:00:49.680 But even more

01:00:51.200 fundamentally, there is

01:00:52.760 no risk pathway.

01:00:55.520 You're screwed no

01:00:56.440 matter what you do.

01:00:57.620 And that's terrible,

01:00:58.760 but it's also freeing.

01:01:00.740 And so once you know

01:01:01.700 that there's no safety,

01:01:03.880 well, then you can take

01:01:04.720 the most interesting

01:01:05.520 risk, and why not?

01:01:07.640 And then maybe you

01:01:08.300 don't need safety.

01:01:09.420 Okay, so you decided to

01:01:10.520 go on Pierce Morgan.

01:01:11.140 That ties directly into

01:01:12.260 what happened on

01:01:13.040 Pierce Morgan.

01:01:13.980 Yes.

01:01:14.620 Okay.

01:01:15.080 So 15 minutes, and he

01:01:16.260 asked the usual

01:01:17.000 questions you would

01:01:17.700 expect around...

01:01:18.340 How was he with you?

01:01:19.220 He was really nice.

01:01:20.960 He was very charismatic,

01:01:25.420 likable kind, and very...

01:01:27.140 Well, he's a funny guy.

01:01:28.500 He is.

01:01:29.020 He's kind of like

01:01:29.900 Simon Cowell, in a way.

01:01:32.940 You know, you can see

01:01:34.420 in America's Got...

01:01:35.380 I mean, they both worked

01:01:36.240 on America's Got Talent

01:01:37.240 and Britain's Got Talent.

01:01:38.320 You can see if Cowell

01:01:39.640 likes somebody, he's

01:01:40.520 really on their side.

01:01:41.380 If he doesn't like them,

01:01:42.160 he's really not on their

01:01:43.200 side, and Morgan is like

01:01:44.620 that, and he's also

01:01:45.420 the sort of guy who...

01:01:46.940 He'll give you the

01:01:47.620 benefit of the doubt,

01:01:48.520 but if you start

01:01:49.580 playing games, then

01:01:50.780 you're in serious

01:01:51.480 trouble.

01:01:52.180 And so he obviously

01:01:53.040 started by giving you

01:01:54.280 the benefit of the doubt.

01:01:55.260 He was probably, you

01:01:56.240 know, reasonably pleased

01:01:57.280 with the video that he

01:01:58.240 had seen and thought,

01:01:59.260 you know, that he would

01:02:00.040 be inviting to begin

01:02:02.280 with.

01:02:02.620 So that worked out well.

01:02:03.680 Okay, so...

01:02:04.440 And he asked the

01:02:04.900 question...

01:02:05.360 The last question was

01:02:06.300 interesting.

01:02:06.760 It's the one that

01:02:07.140 stands out in my mind.

01:02:08.260 And he goes,

01:02:08.640 in all your hair...

01:02:09.280 Because he watched the

01:02:10.100 video.

01:02:10.680 He was a producer.

01:02:11.600 Someone went to the

01:02:12.260 YouTube channel in the

01:02:13.300 research, and I was like,

01:02:14.160 give me something to...

01:02:15.520 They found the me

01:02:17.020 talking about archetypes

01:02:18.120 in Harry Potter.

01:02:19.260 Ah.

01:02:19.920 That I have from you.

01:02:20.740 Oh, yes.

01:02:21.280 I see.

01:02:21.740 I see.

01:02:22.080 And he goes, so...

01:02:23.260 And he thought I was

01:02:23.740 some Harry Potter scholar

01:02:24.680 or something.

01:02:25.300 He goes, so, given all

01:02:26.740 your Harry Potter studies,

01:02:28.540 what would the best piece

01:02:30.100 of life advice be?

01:02:31.700 And from all your Harry

01:02:32.820 Potter studies...

01:02:33.860 I said, voluntarily enter

01:02:36.840 the unknown.

01:02:37.700 Uh-huh.

01:02:38.580 Which is what you were

01:02:39.080 just talking about.

01:02:39.460 Uh-huh.

01:02:40.060 Uh-huh.

01:02:41.160 Like, it might be, you

01:02:43.900 know, the unknown beneath

01:02:45.400 the surface of Hogwarts.

01:02:46.860 Uh-huh.

01:02:47.200 It might be facing the

01:02:48.460 serpent that could turn

01:02:49.500 you to stone when you

01:02:50.860 see it.

01:02:51.340 Uh-huh.

01:02:52.000 Like, fear.

01:02:53.900 But you must do so

01:02:55.240 voluntarily in order to

01:02:56.400 save Ginny.

01:02:57.740 Uh-huh.

01:02:59.300 And it's the voluntary

01:03:01.820 aspect of that that is...

01:03:04.040 Which is just classic.

01:03:05.120 Everyone echoes that.

01:03:07.100 They're like, okay.

01:03:09.080 Yeah, well, it's a very

01:03:09.940 good thing to know.

01:03:10.720 But it's true.

01:03:11.600 Yeah, well, it's also

01:03:12.580 surprising because it

01:03:16.460 belies the, what would

01:03:19.600 you say, the merely

01:03:20.900 objective sense of the

01:03:22.300 real.

01:03:23.240 A situation is the same

01:03:24.780 no matter how you

01:03:25.640 encounter it.

01:03:26.540 That's an objectivist

01:03:28.160 perspective.

01:03:29.300 It's, no, a situation

01:03:31.280 is radically different

01:03:32.440 depending on how you

01:03:34.000 encounter it.

01:03:35.000 Kicking and screaming is

01:03:36.140 very different than

01:03:37.320 voluntarily.

01:03:39.080 Even if the stressor is

01:03:40.380 the same and there

01:03:42.040 doesn't seem to be any

01:03:43.380 particular limit to

01:03:45.380 that, which is why, of

01:03:46.700 course, all the heroic

01:03:48.080 quest archetypal

01:03:49.720 narratives are voluntary

01:03:51.800 confrontation with truly

01:03:53.800 terrible things.

01:03:54.820 Otherwise, the quest has no

01:03:55.980 real deep significance.

01:03:57.600 Okay, so the Pierce

01:03:58.440 Morgan interview, that

01:04:00.440 went well.

01:04:01.180 That was a success.

01:04:02.460 Yeah.

01:04:02.580 And what was the

01:04:03.100 consequence of that?

01:04:04.180 The next day, I go back

01:04:06.620 into school, they call me

01:04:07.380 back into the principal's

01:04:08.320 office and they say,

01:04:09.480 dude, you went on

01:04:10.580 Pierce Morgan?

01:04:11.780 Like, can you at least

01:04:12.980 check in with us before

01:04:14.360 you do Pierce Morgan?

01:04:15.640 Those are the exact words

01:04:16.640 that I was presenting.

01:04:17.100 Right, right.

01:04:17.800 Can you at least check with

01:04:19.020 us?

01:04:19.400 Yeah, but, you know,

01:04:20.240 what you just articulated

01:04:21.640 was masterful and that's

01:04:23.560 the best logical read that

01:04:25.060 you could provide on that

01:04:26.860 situation, I think.

01:04:27.760 All bureaucratic entities

01:04:30.420 will always say no to

01:04:31.740 anything that's

01:04:32.540 quest related.

01:04:33.580 Obviously.

01:04:34.560 There's no benefit to

01:04:35.000 them.

01:04:35.800 There's only risk, right?

01:04:37.720 There's only downside.

01:04:38.640 Of course, yeah, this is

01:04:40.740 partly why I think research

01:04:41.900 has been almost completely

01:04:43.200 stifled in universities.

01:04:44.660 You cannot do risk-free

01:04:46.280 research.

01:04:47.800 Period.

01:04:48.440 It's not possible.

01:04:49.500 You can't just do the next

01:04:50.800 safe thing.

01:04:52.000 It's too obvious, first of

01:04:53.840 all, and there's no

01:04:55.540 excitement in the discovery.

01:04:57.240 It has to be a risk and

01:04:58.900 the risk has to be real.

01:05:00.480 And, you know, we don't

01:05:01.420 want to be too cynical

01:05:02.180 about this either.

01:05:03.420 You know, it's not

01:05:04.940 obviously the role of

01:05:06.360 bureaucracies to take

01:05:07.440 risks, right?

01:05:08.980 It's the role of

01:05:09.940 bureaucracies to set

01:05:11.380 policies and strategies

01:05:13.780 and to abide by the

01:05:15.460 rules and move forward.

01:05:16.380 Well, you see that in

01:05:17.140 Harry Potter, too, because

01:05:18.220 there's a weird dynamic

01:05:19.240 constantly in the Harry

01:05:20.720 Potter stories that

01:05:21.460 Rowling is.

01:05:22.240 She was great at this

01:05:23.440 because Harry's band,

01:05:25.680 like they're academically

01:05:27.520 oriented and they're

01:05:28.520 upward striving, but

01:05:29.480 they're always rule

01:05:30.480 breakers, right?

01:05:31.640 And the the grand

01:05:33.100 wizard at the top of

01:05:34.300 the ladder, he put

01:05:37.480 all the rules that

01:05:38.380 govern the educational

01:05:39.560 institution in place and

01:05:41.100 knows what they are, but

01:05:42.400 is perfectly happy that

01:05:43.680 Harry and his, you

01:05:45.440 know, band of ethical

01:05:47.220 miscreants break rules.

01:05:49.140 Yeah.

01:05:49.320 And he knows about it

01:05:50.360 almost.

01:05:50.800 They insinuate that he

01:05:51.780 knows what they're doing

01:05:52.900 and lets it go

01:05:54.760 anyways.

01:05:55.700 Yeah.

01:05:55.960 Well, that's that

01:05:56.700 that's that constant

01:05:58.080 paradox.

01:05:59.840 It's really the paradox

01:06:00.900 of it's really the

01:06:02.720 paradox of something

01:06:03.600 like liberal versus

01:06:04.840 conservative.

01:06:05.940 You know, the

01:06:06.480 conservatives fundamentally

01:06:08.160 I hate to call the

01:06:09.820 conservatives the

01:06:10.500 bureaucrats because in

01:06:11.720 our weird political

01:06:12.500 world, things have all

01:06:13.460 got flipped around.

01:06:14.380 But generally speaking,

01:06:15.720 the conservative types

01:06:16.880 are much more rule

01:06:18.480 oriented and much less

01:06:19.960 entrepreneurial.

01:06:20.580 And so but there's

01:06:23.300 there's a there's a

01:06:24.340 dance between those

01:06:25.280 two that's absolutely

01:06:26.040 necessary.

01:06:26.520 And there's no getting

01:06:27.300 rid of the conflict

01:06:28.100 because most of the

01:06:30.000 time you should follow

01:06:30.780 the rules.

01:06:31.740 But some of the time

01:06:33.100 you definitely shouldn't.

01:06:34.840 And wisdom is the

01:06:35.800 ability to and daring

01:06:37.620 that's the ability to

01:06:38.540 tell the difference.

01:06:39.260 Well, so you went on

01:06:40.040 Piers Morgan.

01:06:40.760 And so I don't blame

01:06:43.480 your administrator for

01:06:45.140 either do objecting.

01:06:47.480 Although, you know,

01:06:48.840 what you would have

01:06:49.540 hoped for is something

01:06:50.760 like a little elbow

01:06:52.160 saying, you know,

01:06:53.240 you should have done

01:06:53.840 that.

01:06:54.020 Good work.

01:06:54.840 There was.

01:06:55.480 Oh, good.

01:06:56.060 There was that.

01:06:56.640 Well, the assistant

01:06:57.560 principal who ascended

01:06:58.600 and led that whole

01:06:59.920 coup and there was

01:07:01.960 something different

01:07:02.500 about his response.

01:07:03.280 But the principal,

01:07:04.060 the 30 year old

01:07:04.620 principal, who was

01:07:05.280 always very helpful

01:07:06.060 to me and like,

01:07:06.860 yeah, helping me to

01:07:08.900 get or, you know,

01:07:10.700 like, Warren, you

01:07:11.220 should get your

01:07:11.620 license in phonetics

01:07:13.420 and you can have this

01:07:14.620 new special ed license

01:07:15.680 my first year.

01:07:16.660 He was kind of this

01:07:17.440 human, a guiding

01:07:19.680 hand before he

01:07:20.700 suddenly had this

01:07:21.460 power.

01:07:22.400 And there was that

01:07:23.460 at the end.

01:07:24.060 And he was like,

01:07:24.580 I would have done

01:07:25.020 the same thing.

01:07:25.860 Oh, yeah.

01:07:26.260 Good.

01:07:26.580 Literally.

01:07:27.080 Good, good, good.

01:07:28.580 That's the nod

01:07:29.360 and the wink.

01:07:30.540 Yeah.

01:07:31.460 Yeah.

01:07:31.700 Every institution

01:07:32.600 that's going to

01:07:33.140 function needs that,

01:07:34.160 right?

01:07:34.320 Because you need

01:07:34.840 the people who

01:07:35.400 impose the rules

01:07:36.200 and the structure,

01:07:37.000 but they need to

01:07:38.100 always be able to

01:07:38.980 say, well, yeah,

01:07:40.380 that there is a

01:07:41.120 reason for not

01:07:41.760 following the

01:07:42.340 procedure in that

01:07:43.220 particular case.

01:07:44.280 And he said,

01:07:44.720 I got to, I

01:07:45.620 need to,

01:07:46.660 run this up the

01:07:47.360 flagpole.

01:07:48.120 I'm going to need

01:07:48.500 to call.

01:07:49.520 This is just getting,

01:07:50.940 I don't know how to

01:07:51.500 respond to this.

01:07:52.500 Pierce, Maury,

01:07:53.040 I don't know what

01:07:53.480 this, this isn't in

01:07:54.600 the playbook.

01:07:55.440 This isn't in the

01:07:55.840 name.

01:07:56.520 Right.

01:07:56.880 So, they arrange for

01:07:58.760 a meeting with the

01:07:59.740 executive director

01:08:00.460 and her team of

01:08:01.800 lawyers.

01:08:02.720 There's a board

01:08:03.520 that runs this

01:08:04.280 school.

01:08:05.380 She answers to

01:08:07.860 them, I guess.

01:08:08.920 She's never

01:08:09.440 president.

01:08:10.080 She used to kind

01:08:10.780 of have her office

01:08:11.500 over near mine,

01:08:12.520 but I hadn't seen

01:08:13.300 her at all this,

01:08:15.120 that past year.

01:08:16.080 She just said,

01:08:18.020 and so she,

01:08:18.860 there was a meeting

01:08:19.680 with her.

01:08:20.540 Yeah.

01:08:20.680 I went into a

01:08:22.040 room with that

01:08:23.180 principal, the one

01:08:24.940 who, and it was a

01:08:26.960 Zoom call.

01:08:28.600 I think, no, it's

01:08:29.600 just audio.

01:08:30.520 And her lawyers were

01:08:31.680 sitting next to her

01:08:32.500 and they just said,

01:08:33.720 well, technically you

01:08:35.120 didn't break any

01:08:35.700 rules, so you're,

01:08:37.960 congratulations.

01:08:39.280 Good luck to you.

01:08:40.240 I hope you don't make

01:08:40.920 a mistake.

01:08:41.740 Right, right.

01:08:42.340 I hate to lose

01:08:42.900 you, and I

01:08:44.460 thought, fair

01:08:45.380 enough, I'll take

01:08:46.520 responsibility for

01:08:47.720 anything I say and

01:08:48.780 do, and me and

01:08:50.700 that music teacher

01:08:51.340 were like,

01:08:52.700 home free, but

01:08:54.880 that's, it was,

01:08:56.560 it felt like that

01:08:58.280 should be the

01:08:59.140 response.

01:09:00.980 Yeah, well, that

01:09:01.600 was, that's a pretty

01:09:02.240 good response.

01:09:03.020 I mean, it's not

01:09:03.580 surprising that they

01:09:04.540 looked into it.

01:09:06.300 Yeah.

01:09:06.540 I mean, one of the

01:09:07.300 things, too, that's

01:09:08.060 worth thinking about,

01:09:08.980 too, is that when

01:09:10.960 you're called to

01:09:12.620 account for yourself

01:09:14.060 when you break a

01:09:15.200 rule, for example,

01:09:16.700 and you upset the

01:09:18.220 normal course of

01:09:19.400 the routine, it's

01:09:21.340 not such a bad

01:09:22.320 idea to present

01:09:23.900 the people who are

01:09:24.700 now cast into doubt

01:09:26.140 and confusion with

01:09:27.080 a plan.

01:09:28.780 So, for example, I

01:09:30.600 had the same

01:09:31.280 experience as you

01:09:32.460 did, essentially,

01:09:33.980 when I put up the

01:09:35.700 first videos that

01:09:37.200 brought me to public

01:09:38.520 attention surrounding

01:09:39.960 Bill C-16.

01:09:40.960 It was just, it was

01:09:42.560 really the same sort

01:09:43.420 of experiment that

01:09:44.340 you ran.

01:09:45.340 I'd been, I'd put up

01:09:46.380 a lot of my lectures

01:09:47.240 on YouTube, and

01:09:48.000 they'd got a moderate

01:09:49.880 amount of attention

01:09:50.840 and a reasonable

01:09:52.300 amount for the time

01:09:53.600 because I started

01:09:54.340 putting them, I

01:09:55.180 think, in 2013 on

01:09:56.680 YouTube, which was

01:09:57.900 very early in YouTube

01:09:58.960 development.

01:10:01.180 But they hadn't

01:10:02.260 attracted anything like

01:10:03.380 viral attention.

01:10:04.820 And then this idiot

01:10:06.400 virtue signaling bill was

01:10:07.840 put into law by our

01:10:09.380 idiot virtue signaling

01:10:10.520 prime minister.

01:10:11.200 And I made three

01:10:13.260 videos objecting to

01:10:14.700 that and some

01:10:15.440 university policies.

01:10:16.480 That was purely

01:10:17.320 experimental because I

01:10:19.020 was still playing with

01:10:19.800 the technology and

01:10:20.840 wondering what use it

01:10:22.100 was and seeing if I

01:10:23.780 could lay out a

01:10:24.580 structured argument as

01:10:25.660 well.

01:10:25.960 I edited it quite a bit,

01:10:27.220 actually, that one.

01:10:28.060 And that went viral.

01:10:31.080 And then I was called

01:10:32.000 into the principal's

01:10:34.800 office, so to speak, at

01:10:36.600 the university, which

01:10:37.440 kind of surprised me to

01:10:38.420 begin with, but not

01:10:39.660 exactly because they

01:10:41.600 didn't know what to do

01:10:42.800 with this.

01:10:43.500 And unsurprisingly, I

01:10:45.080 mean, whether the dean,

01:10:47.240 for example, had any

01:10:48.140 right to have to say

01:10:49.660 anything whatsoever with

01:10:51.420 what I was doing with

01:10:52.320 YouTube in my home, in

01:10:54.840 my free time, is a

01:10:55.980 completely different

01:10:56.580 issue.

01:10:57.100 But I suggested to

01:10:58.360 them that the

01:10:59.760 University of Toronto

01:11:00.700 could do the daring

01:11:03.520 thing and have a

01:11:04.600 debate on free speech.

01:11:06.780 And so that was a

01:11:07.580 concrete plan, right?

01:11:08.880 And they were looking

01:11:09.820 for something to do.

01:11:11.100 They didn't know what

01:11:11.700 to do.

01:11:12.220 And that is what they

01:11:13.440 did.

01:11:13.860 And for better, for

01:11:15.640 worse.

01:11:16.020 And that was much

01:11:17.260 better than many of the

01:11:18.340 things that they could

01:11:19.100 have done.

01:11:19.660 Now, it still worked out

01:11:21.320 that it became

01:11:22.640 impossible, really, for

01:11:23.800 me to keep my position

01:11:25.080 there, although I did

01:11:26.280 for about a year.

01:11:27.880 But it is also the

01:11:30.800 case to know that if

01:11:32.200 you're going to step

01:11:33.060 outside of the bounds of

01:11:34.660 normal propriety, it

01:11:36.560 doesn't hurt to have a

01:11:37.720 plan, especially for the

01:11:39.040 people that you confuse

01:11:40.080 because they also don't

01:11:42.160 know what to do and

01:11:43.140 they're going to hunker

01:11:45.480 down and they're going to

01:11:46.900 dissociate themselves from

01:11:48.320 you if you are deemed to

01:11:50.240 be a risk, especially a

01:11:51.920 contamination risk.

01:11:53.580 And so, and the topics

01:11:54.420 you were discussing,

01:11:55.400 especially on the

01:11:56.020 rolling side, would have

01:11:57.360 that element because,

01:11:58.600 of course, to the degree

01:12:00.440 that the propaganda

01:12:01.900 surrounding the idea of

01:12:03.420 transphobia is effective,

01:12:06.260 you can easily be tarred

01:12:07.400 and feathered and run

01:12:08.300 out of town on a rail.

01:12:09.680 But you weren't.

01:12:11.100 You weren't.

01:12:11.760 That didn't exactly

01:12:12.680 happen in the school.

01:12:13.980 So you said something

01:12:15.280 interesting about, and I

01:12:16.660 agree, that the

01:12:17.720 university, the dean,

01:12:18.840 has narrated in your own

01:12:20.060 home what you do with

01:12:20.900 YouTube.

01:12:21.220 How does that correlate

01:12:22.280 to the dean's business

01:12:23.720 or the university's

01:12:24.660 business?

01:12:25.480 What's interesting is that

01:12:26.720 when you go into the

01:12:27.560 handbook, which after all

01:12:29.100 this occurred, I went and

01:12:30.300 kind of looked, poked

01:12:31.340 into, it's written that

01:12:33.940 they have every involvement

01:12:35.480 at this school into

01:12:37.720 whatever a teacher says

01:12:40.780 politically on social

01:12:43.180 media, if they say, and

01:12:45.040 there's no clear objective

01:12:46.380 definition of what, where

01:12:48.560 that line is.

01:12:49.220 Of course, of course.

01:12:49.980 So they just reserve to

01:12:51.100 themselves the right.

01:12:52.160 Yeah, the College of

01:12:53.040 Psychologists has basically

01:12:54.320 done exactly the same

01:12:55.420 thing in Canada, the

01:12:57.820 people that I'm in trouble

01:12:58.840 for in relationship to my

01:13:00.260 license.

01:13:00.600 It's like, there are rules

01:13:02.400 apparently about the way I

01:13:04.300 can conduct myself, but the

01:13:05.560 only way you find out what

01:13:06.640 those rules are is by being

01:13:09.740 accused of breaking them.

01:13:11.520 It's not like they're

01:13:12.240 written down.

01:13:13.040 Because, of course, they

01:13:14.160 can't be, right?

01:13:15.660 And so that's also, that's

01:13:17.880 also a terrible thing

01:13:18.860 because, and this is

01:13:20.460 something that's happening

01:13:21.260 in our culture very

01:13:22.100 rapidly, and apparently is

01:13:23.680 something that de Tocqueville

01:13:24.840 prophesied back in the mid

01:13:28.580 1800s, that if totalitarianism

01:13:31.920 came to democracies, it would

01:13:35.020 come in the form of essentially

01:13:37.180 mid-level bureaucracies

01:13:40.340 invisibly making everything

01:13:42.580 daring illegal, right?

01:13:44.900 And so, and those open-ended

01:13:47.460 policies are precisely the

01:13:50.500 sort of thing that they're

01:13:51.400 like, they're like

01:13:52.860 comprehensive traps.

01:13:54.740 So they could have actually

01:13:55.800 gone after you.

01:13:56.620 Oh, yeah.

01:13:57.080 It was a unique contract to

01:13:58.760 begin with, and I remember

01:13:59.520 signing that when I first

01:14:01.020 agreed on to that school.

01:14:02.820 It said you could be fired for

01:14:04.160 any reason, no reason, at any

01:14:06.320 time.

01:14:06.700 Yeah.

01:14:06.920 And that's not a reality at

01:14:09.460 your average high school.

01:14:11.200 So that stood out to me.

01:14:12.400 I thought, interesting, okay.

01:14:14.420 Well, this is a new world.

01:14:15.560 This is an unusual world that

01:14:16.900 I don't, so.

01:14:18.100 Yeah, well, you could see

01:14:19.080 also, though, you could

01:14:20.140 actually understand, I would

01:14:21.520 say, the reasons for a

01:14:24.100 contract like that at a

01:14:25.480 school like that.

01:14:26.660 Sure.

01:14:27.000 Because so many possible

01:14:29.120 things could go wrong that

01:14:30.700 the rules arguably would have

01:14:33.260 to be more comprehensive to

01:14:35.700 cover any possible

01:14:37.300 occurrence.

01:14:39.500 Okay, so what happens after

01:14:42.240 Pierce Morgan?

01:14:43.260 Things were different.

01:14:45.120 No one ever spoke to me about

01:14:47.440 it, again, the video, or I

01:14:50.700 was continuing to make YouTube

01:14:51.820 videos is what I should point

01:14:53.420 out.

01:14:53.440 Okay, okay.

01:14:54.040 So you did continue to make and

01:14:55.680 post them.

01:14:56.540 Did they also attract more

01:14:57.900 attention after that?

01:14:58.780 Now that I had this viral, you

01:15:00.780 know, I'm still doing the

01:15:02.620 YouTube channel and it's, it's

01:15:04.080 grown.

01:15:04.680 It's not, so it wasn't like it

01:15:05.940 was now.

01:15:07.340 It's not huge, but it was

01:15:09.500 decent.

01:15:10.500 Yeah.

01:15:10.860 It was fun.

01:15:11.580 Most importantly, it was me and

01:15:12.660 the music teacher.

01:15:13.720 We were like, okay, we have

01:15:14.800 this opportunity.

01:15:15.800 He didn't want any part of it.

01:15:17.540 It was his personality type.

01:15:19.080 If you had offered him the

01:15:20.540 chance to swap places with me,

01:15:22.560 I really think he would have

01:15:24.060 declined it.

01:15:24.700 Ah, wow.

01:15:25.340 It's, it's just too much, too

01:15:27.380 much exposure.

01:15:28.340 There's a lot that comes with

01:15:28.520 that.

01:15:30.020 You're in the unknown and it's

01:15:31.540 on you when you're entering

01:15:32.680 this, anyway.

01:15:33.560 But we, we, every Friday after

01:15:35.640 school, we set up a little

01:15:37.160 studio in, downstairs in my

01:15:39.040 house and every Friday after

01:15:39.960 school, we would just sit down,

01:15:41.880 record something, talk about

01:15:43.440 whatever we wanted to talk

01:15:44.280 about for an hour and then

01:15:45.340 edit it in an hour and post it.

01:15:48.540 So that's the voice you hear

01:15:49.880 in those early, if you ever look

01:15:51.420 at those videos, that's the

01:15:53.020 voice you hear off camera.

01:15:54.540 And he didn't want to show

01:15:55.640 his face, which is

01:15:57.420 understandable.

01:15:59.660 And all those perspectives in

01:16:01.600 there are his genuine

01:16:02.900 perspectives and he's very

01:16:04.260 liberal.

01:16:04.800 So it was interesting.

01:16:05.480 It was interesting dynamic.

01:16:06.440 It was like this classic, it

01:16:09.020 was so stereotypical, people

01:16:10.420 thought it was fake.

01:16:11.780 They were like, this is a

01:16:12.500 clearly staged, which I take

01:16:13.840 as a compliment.

01:16:14.500 It's like, really, you think

01:16:15.180 the only way we could achieve

01:16:16.500 this outcome would be to

01:16:17.580 script it?

01:16:18.360 That means we're doing

01:16:19.380 something right.

01:16:19.960 So we were making these

01:16:22.380 and things just at the

01:16:25.440 school, I noticed I stopped

01:16:28.400 being invited to certain

01:16:29.900 things.

01:16:30.080 There was like a wedding.

01:16:30.940 I wasn't invited to that.

01:16:31.840 My whole Site One team was

01:16:33.480 and there was, everyone goes

01:16:35.540 out for drinks on Friday.

01:16:36.900 There's the bar nearby.

01:16:38.540 The hero, you know, heroes in

01:16:40.440 classic stories often become

01:16:42.240 contaminated by the unknown.

01:16:43.940 So even in the Lord of the

01:16:46.960 Rings stories, you know, the

01:16:48.100 fact that Frodo and Bilbo both

01:16:50.700 know Gandalf makes them somewhat

01:16:54.500 socially unpopular in the

01:16:56.320 Shire.

01:16:57.020 Right.

01:16:57.520 Even though they're associated,

01:16:59.080 well, they're associated with

01:17:00.200 magic power.

01:17:01.420 Yeah.

01:17:01.560 And you might think that's all

01:17:03.100 status.

01:17:03.720 It's like, it's not all status.

01:17:05.420 It makes the people who want to

01:17:08.420 operate only within the confines

01:17:10.380 of the Shire, let's say, very

01:17:12.480 nervous.

01:17:12.900 And rightly so, because that is

01:17:15.920 a disruptive force.

01:17:17.900 And so, even when Bilbo, yeah,

01:17:22.480 comes back from his initial

01:17:24.220 adventure, he's regarded with

01:17:26.660 suspicion for the rest of his

01:17:28.700 life.

01:17:29.060 Admiration, yes, but also

01:17:31.320 suspicion.

01:17:32.420 And from the more conservative

01:17:34.120 forces, you might say.

01:17:35.540 That's a good point.

01:17:36.280 Yeah.

01:17:36.500 Yeah, yeah.

01:17:37.400 Yeah, yeah.

01:17:37.960 Well.

01:17:38.740 That's how it felt.

01:17:39.680 Yeah.

01:17:40.300 Yeah.

01:17:40.560 Well, you can also understand

01:17:41.840 that biologically.

01:17:42.900 With the zebra analog, in a way,

01:17:45.980 it's like, you don't want to be

01:17:47.560 too close to the target of the

01:17:49.020 predators, you know?

01:17:50.300 And this is a deep biological

01:17:51.920 instinct, you know, that the

01:17:53.680 reason that fish exist in schools

01:17:55.920 and herbivores exist in herds is

01:17:58.200 because if you're with a bunch of

01:17:59.980 other animals of your type and a

01:18:02.860 predator attacks, the probability

01:18:05.040 that it will be you is proportionate to

01:18:08.700 how well you hide in the herd, obviously.

01:18:12.760 So, to the degree that you live life as

01:18:15.800 a prey animal, then you're going to

01:18:18.100 hide in the herd.

01:18:19.200 Now, the question you might ask

01:18:20.680 yourself is, do you want to live life

01:18:22.300 as a prey animal?

01:18:23.720 And human beings really have that

01:18:25.900 choice because we're very strange

01:18:28.760 creatures.

01:18:29.220 We're predators, but we're also prey

01:18:31.060 animals.

01:18:31.460 And you can take either of those

01:18:33.060 pathways forward.

01:18:34.760 And it was interesting because this

01:18:35.980 opportunity came along where I was

01:18:37.900 presented with the decision, do I

01:18:39.560 leave the herd?

01:18:40.700 Yeah.

01:18:40.880 Go into the unknown on this journey

01:18:42.680 and see where it takes me or do I go

01:18:44.940 back to the safety?

01:18:46.420 Okay.

01:18:46.720 So, you said now that there was some

01:18:48.380 social consequence afterwards, but

01:18:50.800 that things more or less went back to

01:18:52.880 normal.

01:18:53.420 What happened with the students?

01:18:55.360 And then, eventually, your job at the

01:18:58.020 school did disappear.

01:18:59.240 So, walk us through the aftermath of

01:19:02.620 this flurry of attention.

01:19:05.540 The students, I think that the staff

01:19:09.600 went to great lengths to insulate the

01:19:13.340 students.

01:19:13.700 That student that was the voice in the

01:19:16.060 video, he loved it.

01:19:18.220 He was aware of it.

01:19:19.680 And I, in that meeting with the

01:19:21.440 lawyers, I was like, look, so-and-so,

01:19:23.360 I'd be happy to talk to his, like, I

01:19:25.320 think he's going to be fine with it.

01:19:27.020 Like, no one expected this, but he's a

01:19:28.960 good kid.

01:19:29.600 They're like, no, we don't want you

01:19:31.260 anywhere near this.

01:19:32.060 Like, we'll talk to the parents and

01:19:33.720 the parents were fine with it.

01:19:34.720 He already had the releases.

01:19:35.820 It was...

01:19:36.500 Yeah, that's good.

01:19:37.600 So, you had dotted your I's and

01:19:39.080 crossed your T's with regards to

01:19:40.880 student involvement.

01:19:42.020 So, long story short, I, a few

01:19:44.540 months later, I had, well, I had

01:19:48.400 another conversation with that

01:19:49.700 student around communism.

01:19:51.920 We were continuously doing what we

01:19:54.000 had always been doing with the video

01:19:55.580 production.

01:19:56.380 But I was feeling more and more like,

01:19:59.180 I got to be careful.

01:19:59.980 And the music teacher was telling me,

01:20:02.960 he's like, look, man, I, you got it.

01:20:04.560 You've got a lot of eyes on you.

01:20:06.220 And it made logical sense that they

01:20:07.920 would, they were, that they were

01:20:10.060 looking for any slip up, anything

01:20:13.060 that I, I got the sense that they

01:20:15.440 wanted to get rid of, it would have

01:20:18.820 been easier to get rid of me when that

01:20:20.600 video came out.

01:20:21.600 But there was so much attention around

01:20:24.780 it that it would have put them at risk

01:20:29.160 to do so.

01:20:29.940 Right.

01:20:31.020 I don't know.

01:20:31.720 I'm not saying that there was a plan

01:20:33.620 to wait and let that blow over and

01:20:36.480 then be, but I think they needed it

01:20:40.620 good enough.

01:20:41.340 I thought they were just not going to

01:20:42.380 renew my contract over the summer,

01:20:43.880 which is usually what they do.

01:20:45.680 It's very common.

01:20:46.720 And you thought that might happen.

01:20:48.300 I thought with 90% certainty that

01:20:49.980 that's what would happen.

01:20:51.100 It would just be, it would make

01:20:51.980 sense.

01:20:52.720 As you said, it would be the logical

01:20:53.920 sense thing to do.

01:20:54.940 It's in their best interest.

01:20:56.500 There's no good to come up having

01:20:58.120 one of your teachers out there with a

01:20:59.800 growing audience, small, but growing

01:21:02.420 audience saying certain things that

01:21:05.720 are examined.

01:21:06.300 It could be troublesome.

01:21:08.040 There's no benefit to that.

01:21:09.600 Well, yeah.

01:21:10.140 The funny thing too is that there's no

01:21:12.340 benefit from a pure analysis of risk,

01:21:14.560 but, you know, your, your, what you

01:21:18.000 did with those videos definitely, in

01:21:20.440 my estimation anyways, brought credit

01:21:24.080 to the school.

01:21:26.360 So, you know, with more imagination,

01:21:29.960 what you accomplished could have been

01:21:33.480 very useful to the school with more

01:21:35.600 imagination.

01:21:36.480 That would require them to go public

01:21:37.640 though, which they were not going to

01:21:39.140 do.

01:21:39.380 They don't want that spotlight.

01:21:41.580 That would require people to know

01:21:42.760 what.

01:21:42.960 Yeah, well, but that, that, that

01:21:45.060 harkens back to something that we,

01:21:46.720 that we discussed is that the default

01:21:50.240 presumption for the vast majority of

01:21:53.040 people is no amount of success

01:21:55.960 justifies risk, right?

01:21:58.180 And then people ask themselves, well,

01:21:59.440 why am I not successful?

01:22:00.700 It's like, well, because your threshold

01:22:02.300 for risk is zero and zero, zero isn't a

01:22:07.660 threshold of risk that's associated with

01:22:09.840 success.

01:22:11.040 So if your presumption is I'll only be

01:22:17.000 successful if I take no risks, that's

01:22:19.980 the bargain, then you've foregone success.

01:22:22.840 And the thing about that that's perverse

01:22:24.820 is that that's a risk because we actually

01:22:27.380 don't know how much success we need in

01:22:29.720 order to reconcile ourselves to life.

01:22:31.960 Life is very difficult and so you might

01:22:35.120 need a fair bit of actual success and

01:22:38.940 opportunity to offset the difficulty.

01:22:41.480 Otherwise, it's bitterness and regret, which is

01:22:45.160 not a good pathway.

01:22:46.060 So, you know, I made excuses for the

01:22:51.080 administrators at your school, let's say, for

01:22:52.960 being taken aback and said that it was

01:22:55.760 understandable of them to assume that you

01:22:59.640 were going to merely abide in a predictable

01:23:01.560 way by the rules.

01:23:02.920 But had they been more entrepreneurial and

01:23:05.760 more open to the idea of opportunity, then the

01:23:09.980 school itself could have benefited dramatically

01:23:12.080 from what you had accomplished.

01:23:15.020 But that's also, you know, that also would

01:23:17.980 mean that in the best of all possible

01:23:20.660 worlds that, you know, you might have been

01:23:23.380 able to present them with a plan to make

01:23:25.360 that easy for them, right?

01:23:27.300 So I did see huge potential in that.

01:23:29.960 Suddenly the students, but there's a lot of

01:23:31.900 potential downside and risk to this too.

01:23:33.880 And the students suddenly have the ability to

01:23:35.620 create content that can reach a large audience.

01:23:38.940 Right.

01:23:39.180 I mean, I haven't thought this out in a clear

01:23:41.940 plan, but it was an opportunity.

01:23:45.420 Well, it's an opportunity to have a much

01:23:47.300 more realistic video editing program.

01:23:49.800 Oh.

01:23:50.100 It's like, well, now we're going to make

01:23:51.340 things that people will watch.

01:23:52.740 If this had occurred at that first high

01:23:55.540 school, Neshova, we were already putting

01:23:57.740 things on Twitter.

01:23:58.780 Yeah.

01:23:59.240 They would have, I remember the head of my

01:24:01.200 department, we would have, who knows what

01:24:03.700 we could have done with this.

01:24:04.980 Right.

01:24:05.360 So you think he would have run with it.

01:24:07.800 Yeah.

01:24:08.080 Tell me what happened.

01:24:10.000 Yeah.

01:24:10.280 I can put a button on it.

01:24:11.100 Yeah.

01:24:11.560 What happened with your job?

01:24:13.080 Like you said, you know, you thought that

01:24:14.880 the most likely consequence would be that

01:24:17.380 they just wouldn't renew your contract.

01:24:19.160 Yeah.

01:24:19.500 And when did you come to that conclusion

01:24:22.200 and how did you reconcile yourself to that?

01:24:26.180 I need to run with this opportunity, grow

01:24:29.680 if I can with this platform in case something

01:24:35.400 happens, it seems like that's a really bad,

01:24:38.780 logically, that sounds like a really bad

01:24:40.240 backup plan.

01:24:41.240 I'm going to make a YouTube channel, but it

01:24:43.880 is something.

01:24:44.560 And it's, again, I would have been a fool

01:24:46.600 not to run with that ball as far as I could

01:24:48.420 take it.

01:24:49.380 Well, especially with your broader ambitions,

01:24:51.560 you know, because you were interested in the

01:24:53.900 broader sense in connecting with an audience

01:24:56.280 and filmmaker as well.

01:24:57.660 It's like suddenly, I mean, who knows what I

01:25:00.100 could do with this?

01:25:00.940 Right.

01:25:01.600 So, but to put a button on this, what

01:25:04.420 happened?

01:25:04.980 I uploaded, I did the same thing.

01:25:07.520 I uploaded a video with a different student

01:25:10.360 who hadn't seen that video.

01:25:13.060 And I thought, because it was just from

01:25:16.080 another conversation, but it was identical.

01:25:18.180 The pattern was so identical.

01:25:19.480 I thought this might be worth sharing.

01:25:21.200 Yeah.

01:25:21.620 It's identical to the last one.

01:25:23.300 So what could go wrong?

01:25:24.340 Yeah.

01:25:25.100 He was a new student.

01:25:25.980 So I was like, we need to get permission

01:25:28.020 from your parents if you want to have after

01:25:30.300 it was done.

01:25:30.840 I was like, look, we could upload this.

01:25:32.340 It's identical.

01:25:33.800 Well, I need permission from your parents,

01:25:35.700 like written confirmation.

01:25:37.580 I need your permission because you're new.

01:25:39.340 So we don't have the releases.

01:25:41.340 And so we got that, uploaded, told the music

01:25:44.260 teacher and he was like, you know, just

01:25:48.660 because we'd been going back and forth on

01:25:51.980 what to do with the channel because we knew

01:25:53.940 people wanted that kind of, you know, that's

01:25:56.120 what the audience wanted to see real students.

01:25:58.840 Yeah, right.

01:25:59.600 But I was, and I had toyed with it.

01:26:02.280 I alluded to the communist conversation

01:26:04.440 with that other student.

01:26:06.540 And so I had posted that previously.

01:26:09.020 Two weeks go by.

01:26:10.460 I, in the middle of the day, I get called

01:26:11.840 into a meeting and they say, we've decided

01:26:13.580 to part ways because you uploaded a video

01:26:16.840 to YouTube against policy.

01:26:19.500 We told you not to do that.

01:26:21.380 I said, you told me not to do that.

01:26:22.900 You congratulated me.

01:26:24.120 I was like, how is it okay the first time?

01:26:25.520 And I, I could tell though, when I walked in

01:26:27.300 the room, their mind was already made up.

01:26:30.060 It didn't matter what I said.

01:26:31.220 So I didn't really say much.

01:26:33.060 And I said, are you, are you alluding to

01:26:34.540 this student?

01:26:35.060 I spoke to the parents and as he, have you

01:26:37.040 spoken to his parents?

01:26:38.300 Yeah.

01:26:38.540 And they said, no, we're happy to do an

01:26:41.700 investigation and reach out to him if that's

01:26:43.260 what you'd like, or you can just agree to

01:26:44.540 leave now.

01:26:45.560 And they said, could you check with his

01:26:47.320 parents?

01:26:47.700 Like, it seems like a factor to take in.

01:26:51.040 And so I said, for sure, we'll just do the

01:26:54.080 investigation.

01:26:54.900 You know, they're like, okay, go home and

01:26:56.260 HR will be in touch in three days.

01:26:59.700 But I couldn't touch anything.

01:27:02.560 They took my computer, everything.

01:27:04.020 I was like, escorted like a criminal out.

01:27:06.720 All right.

01:27:07.340 Well, look, I think I'm going to end the

01:27:09.480 YouTube side with that.

01:27:10.520 But I think what we'll do on the Daily

01:27:12.060 Wire side is delve into that in a little

01:27:14.000 bit more detail.

01:27:14.940 It'd be interesting to continue the

01:27:16.680 conversation about, well, why your school

01:27:20.340 made that decision, what possible role HR

01:27:23.120 might have played, and how these things

01:27:25.720 could be managed in general.

01:27:27.260 Because, well, people who are watching and

01:27:29.360 listening are going to be interested in,

01:27:31.320 well, what strategy should you adopt if you

01:27:35.480 dare to take risks within the confines of

01:27:37.760 an organization and find yourself running

01:27:40.540 afoul of the authorities?

01:27:41.940 And I want to know, like, exactly how you

01:27:43.780 thought this through.

01:27:44.560 So for everybody who's watching and

01:27:46.280 listening, you can join us on the Daily

01:27:47.720 Wire side for the remainder of the

01:27:50.320 this conversation.

01:27:51.500 And for now, Warren, thank you very much

01:27:53.980 for coming in today to talk about this.

01:27:56.340 Yeah, yeah.

01:27:57.380 So, you know, part of your story is what

01:28:01.200 happens when you mess with an incredibly

01:28:03.380 powerful technology, right?

01:28:05.180 Because you're living your normal life and

01:28:07.320 you're playing with YouTube.

01:28:08.440 I think that is the interesting story.

01:28:09.380 Oh, definitely.

01:28:10.160 It's like, look the hell out.

01:28:11.700 Because this is a global communication

01:28:13.600 platform that you're publishing on.

01:28:15.620 And so how do you deal with that?

01:28:17.940 Well, no one knows.

01:28:19.120 No one knows.

01:28:20.140 Hence the discussion.

01:28:21.300 So thank you very much for that.

01:28:22.700 And to everybody watching, listening,

01:28:24.220 the film crew here in Manhattan today,

01:28:25.920 thank you guys very much for setting

01:28:27.240 this up and ran very smoothly

01:28:28.960 technically.

01:28:29.640 And that's always good.

01:28:30.480 And join us on the Daily Wire side,

01:28:32.260 everyone, for the continuation of this

01:28:35.060 discussion.

01:28:36.220 Bye-bye.

01:28:36.620 Good aqui.

01:28:37.540 Bye-bye.

01:28:38.260 I've been a good one.

01:28:39.060 Bye-bye.

01:28:39.380 Bye-bye.

01:28:40.140 Bye-bye.

01:28:41.940 Bye-bye.

01:28:44.240 Bye-bye.

01:28:47.540 Bye-bye.

01:28:48.660 Bye-bye.

01:28:49.520 Bye-bye.

01:28:50.880 Bye-bye.

01:28:51.620 Bye-bye.

01:28:52.460 Bye-bye.

01:28:52.900 Bye-bye.

01:28:55.620 Bye-bye.

01:28:55.940 Bye-bye.

01:29:01.500 Bye-bye.

01:29:02.020 Bye-bye.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - December 05, 2024

504. Fired for Honesty and Competence： One Genuine Teacher's Story ｜ Warren Smith

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