The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

00:00:00.000 so a couple of announcements first um i'm on tour again and so if you go to jordanbpeterson.com

00:00:20.780 you can find out cities and dates and that starts in december and runs through april so check that

00:00:25.820 out if you're inclined the tour deals with the issues that i raise in my new book which came out

00:00:31.360 on november 19th uh it's called we who wrestle with god and in that book i take apart a sequence of

00:00:38.440 old testament stories and explain at least as far as i'm concerned at least part of what they mean

00:00:45.620 and i try to do that in a way that's comprehensible and as profound as i could make it but also very

00:00:52.560 practically applicable and so that's a good combination of high level abstraction and immediate

00:00:58.460 practical applicability you need to know these stories because they're the stories that are

00:01:02.760 fundamentally about you and about everybody that you know and about how society is structured and

00:01:06.820 our relationship with nature and the divine so come to the tour pick up the book if you're inclined

00:01:13.040 today i had a chance to speak with andrew doyle with whom i've spoken before we've been in touch

00:01:19.500 for a number of years now andrew's a comedian in the uk um the infamous creator of titania mcgrath who

00:01:26.520 is one of the most effective characters ever devised to satirize the woke left and andrew has been at

00:01:31.660 that for a very long time so we spent a fair bit of time discussing what he's up to um as an immigrant

00:01:37.800 to phoenix um and along with andrew i spoke with graham lenehan who is joining andrew in the

00:01:44.460 establishment of a new entertainment enterprise in phoenix with rob schneider and some other people

00:01:49.380 um their hope is that they can actually do some things that would be funny and that would be a

00:01:55.060 lovely thing to see since humor is in short supply in the woke totalitarian world that we inhabit now

00:02:00.360 although maybe the comedians the true comedians like joe rogan will in fact have their last laugh

00:02:06.100 so we talked about graham's life in a fair in fair detail at the beginning of the podcast because

00:02:12.980 he went from riches to rags right quite traumatically uh graham was maybe the most successful sitcom

00:02:21.460 writer in the uk and the man who penned a number of shows that were beloved by well by by very large

00:02:29.420 audiences and despite that when he had the temerity to have some perfectly reasonable opinions about

00:02:34.840 perfectly reasonable subjects he his life was demolished his marriage ended he was persona non grata

00:02:41.920 in the artistic community which is a complete bloody catastrophe and eventually was inclined not by

00:02:50.420 least by necessity to sever his ties with his home country everyone he knew virtually turned the other

00:02:57.480 way and that's a terrible thing and andrew by contrast has sort of ridden the woke wave i would say he's one of

00:03:05.760 the few individuals particularly in the uk who has managed to turn the fact of the woke mob into something

00:03:12.300 approximating enhanced commercial success and so as graham's ship was sinking andrew's star was rising

00:03:20.240 in any case they have joined forces now and with rob schneider to start this new enterprise we talked about

00:03:26.760 the dismal state of the uk and europe we've seen a revolution in political in the political landscape in the united

00:03:34.740 states there's one coming to canada but man things are looking rough in the uk the the true home of

00:03:41.280 common law and the tradition of free speech and the home of at least once of the greatest comedians the

00:03:47.140 world has ever seen i think and so that's a terrible thing to see and the same dismal fate at the moment

00:03:54.300 appears to await europe and so we delved into that in some detail touching along the way the absolute

00:03:59.720 pathology of the canadian liberal landscape under our head narcissist justin trudeau who's fated for

00:04:06.700 an electoral defeat of unimaginable magnitude but not for a whole year during which he'll do plenty

00:04:12.700 of damage in precisely the way that a wounded narcissist would anyways if you're interested in

00:04:18.100 any or all of that join us on this podcast so gentlemen welcome i think the first thing we should

00:04:25.700 probably do is let everybody know what you have done in the past to be sufficiently reprehensible

00:04:32.840 to be a worthwhile guest on this particular podcast graham why don't you let everybody know well yeah the

00:04:39.580 nature of your sins and crimes yeah well i was uh for for most of my adult life i was a sitcom writer

00:04:48.100 comedy writer and uh quite a successful one uh you know got a lifetime achievement award at the comedy

00:04:56.540 awards standing ovation uh we i think i've won about five baftas personally one emmy um done about

00:05:06.440 five sitcoms three of which are kind of had you know near household names um what were they father ted was

00:05:15.080 the main one father ted actually was so influential that they say it had it had a little bit to do with

00:05:20.720 the the irish irish church releasing its hold in the 90s on on ireland you know um just because we

00:05:28.320 weren't as very satirical we were very silly we were always a surreal and silly show and so that had more

00:05:36.340 effect something i'm i'm i'm i am in two minds about now uh and actually kind of just helped limit the

00:05:45.640 church's influence to some extent by simply throwing a banana peel in their way you know um so everything

00:05:51.940 was going great i had i was asked to write uh an accompanying uh play for a peter schaefer farce which

00:05:59.280 i love called black comedy which has got the most extraordinary um premise um uh and that was the

00:06:06.520 first thing i think oh and i was i was supposed to go and teach comedy in australia that was the first

00:06:11.660 they need that they need somebody that was the first thing that went uh they said they couldn't

00:06:17.940 i heard something i heard over and over again that it was security problems you know they couldn't

00:06:22.460 afford the security you'd hear that a lot uh then the uh the security for you or for the people that

00:06:29.400 you were going to offend well that's the thing you know they you know i i but that was the first time

00:06:34.180 i said can i speak to my accusers can i can i can i see if i can i know yeah i was very in the early

00:06:40.220 fashion can you get well this was the very this was the very earliest days when i still felt

00:06:45.640 that there were people of good faith within um things like uh gender ideology and they you just

00:06:53.380 if you just explained certain things they would like for instance one of the things that i started

00:06:58.480 talking about because i was paying attention to women who were being bullied offline who were called

00:07:02.960 turfs you know and i was trying to figure all this out but i saw that women were getting death

00:07:09.240 threats and rape threats for even discussing it and one of the earliest things i i saw was actually a

00:07:14.460 canadian story that the vancouver rape relief had a dead rat nailed to their door because they wouldn't

00:07:20.860 accept men in their um in their sessions you know or their or whatever they're called before or after

00:07:28.460 the government cut off their funding for refusing to accept men i think it was after and uh you know i i

00:07:35.040 helped raise money for them and uh i just thought as soon as saw someone they as soon as some people saw it

00:07:42.840 they would go what a rat nailed to the door of a rape crisis center a dead rat what fair a dead rat

00:07:50.180 what can we do to help and there was none of that no one stood up for me i just started the the kind

00:07:57.200 of propaganda piece uh paper pink news published has now published over 75 stories about me um they

00:08:05.120 famously did 42 stories on uh jk rowling in a single week you know so seven stories uh six stories a day

00:08:13.200 for seven days the world's most famous turf yeah absolutely trans exclusionary radical feminist right

00:08:19.040 yeah that's the that's the acronym of the day yeah and and as far as i could make out it did not seem

00:08:24.820 uh exclusionary it it the the feminism these women were practicing was basic feminism that i've you mean

00:08:32.120 the kind that believes that that women exist that women exist that kind of that they have value that

00:08:36.820 that that uh the set that sex is important and that men shouldn't be allowed in women's sports and

00:08:41.700 all this type of thing and i started saying especially fetishistic men those sorts of men yeah

00:08:46.380 and um especially the kind of men who would want to do it yeah right especially those kind yeah yeah

00:08:52.640 so uh so yeah so it was almost instantaneous i i lost every every job i i got would just disappear

00:09:01.780 within moments sometimes i was i was i'm the shortest uh uh term director on a on any project i think

00:09:08.400 when i was asked to to direct steve martin's only murders in the building and then you know put down

00:09:15.480 the phone and a few minutes later got an email saying actually someone else has stepped in and i i

00:09:20.580 suspect that the real reason for that was that he being excited announced to the to his colleagues

00:09:26.540 we've got graeme linihan and someone put up their hand and said he's a bigot and i think that that's

00:09:32.020 basically what means i can't really work in the uk at the moment i had a musical based on father ted

00:09:38.300 that would have made millions and they just took it from me refused to make it if my name is associated

00:09:44.580 with it yeah well i've often thought that you know when people are no longer uh what would you say

00:09:52.260 cynical and evil enough to be greedy we're really really in trouble that's right definitely definitely

00:09:57.640 definitely i hate you see i don't wanna i don't wanna i don't want to um uh you know uh take over

00:10:03.920 but basically maybe maybe we should get rid i should leave the rest of my because there's so much well i

00:10:08.560 want to i want to just get the story exactly straight so everyone knows so were you the most

00:10:13.580 set successful sitcom writer in the uk is that is that a reasonable statement or in the top five like

00:10:19.040 what what do you think's fair i think it's i don't know i'd say i mean definitely top five

00:10:24.180 okay definitely that and and okay there's probably not even five good sitcoms no there probably isn't

00:10:31.040 no okay you know right right the tallest midget in the world right right and so okay now and you said

00:10:38.980 you had three extremely famous sitcoms one of which was father ted what were the other two the other

00:10:43.520 was one called the it crowd which was uh set uh it was about it an it department because i it was we

00:10:52.040 wrote it in around 2005 and i noticed the internet becoming a thing and i was always told well i i went

00:10:59.460 to an early danny simon course he was one of the writers on bilko and a lot of uh things that woody

00:11:06.080 allen worked on neil simon's brother you know and he said uh a sitcom should always be about social

00:11:11.660 change so if you see something right around the corner yeah right about it so i always had my

00:11:16.860 ear to the jeffersons or all in the family right yeah yeah exactly kind of on the cutting edge of

00:11:22.380 of social inquiry yeah those were extremely well timed yes and the the one example he gave was

00:11:28.520 mary tyler murphy right yeah another great example yeah although he used the phrase women's livers

00:11:33.420 which was very funny he's this old guy i know it's like 90 year old yeah exactly yeah but um

00:11:39.440 but uh but so yeah so i wrote the it crowd like we have an early parody ad for facebook it was so

00:11:46.580 unusual to us and i still feel that about the internet that we've still all got whiplash and

00:11:53.060 we didn't oh yeah definitely know what it's done to us as a species so father ted the it crowd and

00:11:58.580 uh i'd say the one that might be well known is called black books um the other is a a show called

00:12:06.620 motherland that was quite successful recently that's quite a string of hits yeah okay so now

00:12:12.780 what exactly did you do that was so uh unforgivable and when i think it was it was about 26 16 or 17

00:12:24.320 yeah well that's when things really went insane yeah well also i had a bit of you know trump

00:12:29.360 derangement syndrome i don't know how you were when he won the first time but i thought the world was

00:12:33.200 gonna end i was fully taken in by by the um uh you know the way he was being portrayed in fact what

00:12:40.260 was being done to him was was was about to be done to me you know he said they're after you i'm just in

00:12:45.460 the way yeah right there's some real truth absolutely 100 it became quite a famous statement in this

00:12:51.220 during this election cycle right yeah yeah it appealed to a lot of well a lot of megatypes and a lot of

00:12:57.100 people who had been cancelled unexpectedly by their by their friends and compatriots well i always think

00:13:03.580 of that uh muhammad ali line where he said you know the the the vietnamese never called me no n-word

00:13:10.000 and i feel the same way about the left you know the right never called me right right right and they

00:13:15.040 called me a bigot for for for basic things like saying hey you shouldn't be cutting the breasts off

00:13:20.660 little girls you shouldn't be yep there's one non-hate crime incident yeah keep we can keep piling

00:13:26.620 them up there shouldn't be men in women's prisons it's actually it's actually against the geneva

00:13:31.680 convention to put men in women's prisons yeah but what is a man sir all over yeah there's a terrible

00:13:37.140 story in ireland this will this bloke who uh was you know he had an awful childhood he was he was

00:13:44.720 forced by his father to rape his mother and he was severely disturbed his name was barbie kardashian

00:13:50.040 and because ireland sneaked in self-id without allowing the people of ireland to really discuss

00:13:56.900 it barbie kardashian who hates women with with a completely uh tunnel with complete tunnel vision

00:14:04.780 in a manner you would not want to imagine ever even in your darkest nightmares exactly exactly he's now

00:14:11.160 sharing uh living space with with female prisoners well no psychopaths would pretend to be women just

00:14:17.320 to get access to women i know they're not that sort of people you know i used to say about the

00:14:21.760 catholic church at least priests had to learn latin you know these guys all they have to do is is is put

00:14:27.660 on some eye shadow and every door is open to them or complain about the fact that the bigots are using

00:14:33.920 eye shadow as a marker of gender and that's not fair right yeah well the rules change all the time and

00:14:40.160 that's something i didn't realize as well is that the rules were very fluid and um just like identity

00:14:46.480 yeah yeah but it's like it's like they try and pretend that identity is fluid by making the

00:14:52.840 conversation fluid and hard to understand i mean part of me is very angry for the fact that no one

00:14:58.140 stood in my career stood up for me you know but another part kind of understands because the language

00:15:05.220 around this issue is so deliberately confusing they did a and the cost of standing up is high

00:15:10.780 of course the cost of not standing up is higher but but it is understandable why people you can

00:15:18.220 understand why people choose to remain silent that doesn't excuse it but you can understand it well

00:15:23.820 there's an interesting i can't remember who did the um people are wondering who the hell is this guy on

00:15:29.300 but this guy i can't remember who who who said it but he said that during the nazi years there's a

00:15:42.980 kind of widespread assumption that everyone was afraid of being terrified of being tortured by a

00:15:48.440 by a guy with a scar on a dueling scar on his face and and he says no the reason that that that

00:15:53.540 ordinary germans went along with it for the most part was because of career advancement they did

00:15:59.280 not want their careers well you can understand ever since covid ever since all this cancellation

00:16:03.400 you can understand exactly what happened in germany and i think they actually had far more excuse because

00:16:08.360 it was a lot easier to make sure people didn't know what the hell was going on when everyone wasn't

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00:17:05.880 crimes that the nazis were undertaking were of sufficient magnitude so that it's not surprising that people

00:17:16.000 didn't believe they were happening i mean you know what's his name michael schellenberger when when he

00:17:20.900 wrote the w path files he told me that he had listened to the conversation i had with abigail schreier which

00:17:26.840 was a very early conversation on the child mutilation and sterilization front and he said that his response

00:17:33.040 you know he's liberal in his orientation fundamentally was that there was no way that that could be happening

00:17:39.340 and then you know two years later while he investigated it in great detail and came to the conclusion that

00:17:44.640 yeah in fact it was happening it was led by a pack of the most reprehensible people you could possibly

00:17:49.800 imagine but insane it's not it's not worse than insane truly malevolent and fetishistic and demented

00:17:56.620 in the way that we've been describing the w path people and in unforgivable so so you are standing up for

00:18:04.220 like normal reality and and that was that and it happened very quickly yeah okay so let's turn to

00:18:09.700 andrew for a moment we'll get back to you right away so andrew i think people probably on this

00:18:14.200 podcast are a little bit more familiar with you in all likelihood than they are with graham

00:18:17.900 not least because of your famous character um now of course your name is going to escape me it's

00:18:24.460 titania mcgrain titania yes of course of course and you wrote a book as her which was very comical and

00:18:29.660 you had a you had and still have how are how how how active is titania x now less active than she

00:18:37.360 used to be but you know i was very active as her for a long time i wrote two books as her we did a

00:18:42.060 live show where i had an actress play her we got to do a a west end show in london we only got to do

00:18:48.380 one because um we were booked for a week but the person who runs the theater found out and scotched that

00:18:53.000 um so we ended up with a deal so we only that's funny it's very funny that titania mcgrath got

00:18:57.760 cancelled yeah well there's that exactly yes she would she probably wanted to cancel herself

00:19:01.580 yes um but i'm in a different position from graham because i was never feted or successful in the way

00:19:06.220 that he was so i wasn't cancelled in a sense all it means is that you know i was satirizing this

00:19:11.920 movement and that kind of meant that i i was put in the uh the bad pen i was so you were an early part

00:19:19.500 of the movement to monetize the social justice exactly it was as cynical as that yeah to do that so

00:19:25.600 yeah so explain let's let's go back to the time of titania mcgrath explain what you were doing and

00:19:31.680 then also tell everybody all the other things that you've been involved in well not well i suppose i

00:19:37.220 mean like a lot of people within the comedy industry because my background is stand-up comedy and play

00:19:41.120 writing and writing musicals and that kind of thing a lot of people in the creative arts got dragged into

00:19:45.760 this culture war because by virtue of what we do we're on the front line of it insofar as creative

00:19:51.340 people are often either teasing the boundaries of tolerance or uh addressing issues certainly with

00:19:57.100 satire when you're holding up to ridicule and scrutiny uh the most powerful elements of society

00:20:02.860 but then all of a sudden this movement came along which we might call wokeness or critical social

00:20:07.480 justice or whatever you want to call it which was effectively a new powerful force in society

00:20:12.120 uh which no one was ridiculing um it was as though for all of us this one closed system of thought

00:20:19.220 had somehow successfully uh portrayed itself as the underdog and therefore became ring-fenced

00:20:24.460 from satirical attention which is an interesting unprecedented thing you know normally we know

00:20:28.740 the church the state the government whatever we know who the powerful people are and we know where

00:20:33.020 the satirist's target will be but this was a group that said if you mock us you're actually

00:20:37.400 punching down bully you're a bully uh even though of course their whole movement was uh legitimizing

00:20:42.500 bullying and and because of the whole thing was played it's also a movement that was based on the

00:20:47.060 belief that virtually every form of interaction can be construed as a kind of bullying given that

00:20:52.040 there's no human motivation fundamentally other than that of power yes exactly so it's this power

00:20:57.900 obsessed identity obsessed uh movement that plays with language plays elaborate word games

00:21:03.380 so that they can very effectively too hugely effectively so they can be the bullies uh and say

00:21:08.140 that any criticism is bullying they can be regressive and call themselves progressive they can be illiberal

00:21:12.800 and call themselves liberal they can twist everything linguistically around call themselves men and

00:21:17.720 women every so everything is up for grabs in that yeah but that's that i think is the real danger

00:21:23.100 especially if you're a writer that if you can change the meaning of fundamental word uh combination like

00:21:28.800 men and women then everything falls apart that that's exactly right i think like i've looked into

00:21:34.020 this quite deeply at a psychological level and i think you can make a strong biological case

00:21:39.320 at the level of perception that there is no distinction more fundamental than the distinction

00:21:44.920 between male and female it's more it's more fundamental than up and down it's more fundamental

00:21:51.300 than black and white or night and day and if you can get people to swallow the equivalence of that

00:21:56.560 fundamental pair of opposites there is absolutely no lie whatsoever that they'll resist and in a sense

00:22:02.240 that would be fine if it was uh confided to the sort of uh the the flesh pots of academia if it were

00:22:09.100 just the old post-modern theorists or a gay club oh well fine yeah you know what i mean or there's

00:22:15.620 certain things that have been weaponized and one of them is the empathy that gay people feel for

00:22:19.300 outsiders you know they've always been very protective of them and they've well that's not quite my point

00:22:23.760 my point is that if if it was just at the level of theorizing which it was at some point until the

00:22:28.500 late 80s and then all of a sudden it became applied into society but what i mean is the government now

00:22:34.460 pursues policies based on this inversion of what man and woman means what truth and fiction is

00:22:39.320 it wouldn't matter if it was just theorists and activists yeah that's my point yeah but though

00:22:44.120 it's the compulsion too that's the problem right yeah the fact that you this is why i objected to bill

00:22:49.880 c16 back in about 2016 it's like you know i can say whatever i want fundamentally but the government

00:22:58.300 doesn't get to compel it and i don't care if the reason is hypothetically empathy and compassion it's

00:23:04.800 like first of all i doubt that and second it doesn't matter well actually to graham's point

00:23:09.100 there was a recent a couple of weeks ago the government spokesperson for equalities in the

00:23:13.760 house of lords is baroness jackie smith was asked explicitly what is gender identity what is the

00:23:19.000 government's working definition of gender identity given that so many public health policies are being

00:23:24.060 implemented on the basis of this concept what is your definition and she's turned it around and

00:23:28.440 said that's that's a gotcha she said you know don't you should take this you should take this

00:23:31.760 seriously you know in other words not answering the question fudging the answer and turning it around

00:23:36.300 and blaming the person for asking in the first place yeah and you know we have this similarly just

00:23:41.620 today in the house of in the house of commons we have a a member of the house standing up calling for

00:23:47.600 blasphemy law calling for the desecration of the quran to be illegal we've had cross-party uh

00:23:54.340 discussions in the uk on the definition of islamophobia and it was agreed by both parties

00:23:59.240 that islamophobia is a type of racism but say based on muslimness or perceived muslimness whatever

00:24:05.320 that means but it's not racism because islam is not a race it is a very ethnically diverse uh belief

00:24:11.160 system so when you have governments and i know it's very bad in canada but when you have governments

00:24:14.880 actually uh uh proceeding on this slippery linguistic terrain where even they don't understand

00:24:21.520 the terms that they are deploying uh then that means that those activists that i'm talking about

00:24:25.520 have won they've won they've won out and they are the most powerful which is why you know we've

00:24:30.960 been satirizing them that's why we've been mocking them because yeah they're in they're in charge we

00:24:35.420 have a youtube channel where we talk about you know the gender issue and one of the important things

00:24:40.400 we felt was you got to show people it's safe to laugh at this stuff you know because they're

00:24:44.260 it because it is ridiculous one of the things i got into trouble for was um uh eddie isard said

00:24:51.140 that he would have been a victim of the holocaust and i said yes the nazis famously uh famously

00:24:57.900 bigoted against straight white men with blonde hair you know that got me called a holocaust denier

00:25:03.860 by trans rights activists and didn't didn't um jk rowling sort of other people supported that point

00:25:09.900 of view and they got called holocaust deniers yeah oh yeah rowling is now a holocaust denier because

00:25:14.020 because you know well what can you expect from a turf yeah so isn't that crazy that my point my

00:25:21.420 just to come back slightly to my point about gay gay clubs i think this is a really important one

00:25:26.320 because i heard one of uh you you're gonna have to tell me the details but foco is that how you

00:25:31.520 pronounce it who calls uh one of one of his observations is that in a small uh village there

00:25:38.420 might be a a a guy who calls himself mayor but he's not the mayor he's he's just a crazy guy but

00:25:43.700 everyone says oh hello mayor and they they listen to him and they take his advice and stuff like that

00:25:47.780 and that seems to be what affirmation is yes right yes but the thing is once you widen it throughout

00:25:53.560 society it falls apart it's it's untenable once you get outside of that small village and what i think

00:25:59.080 gay clubs were was a place where outsiders could come you wanted to dress as a woman you wanted to

00:26:04.060 dress in ridiculous clothes the gay club was a safe place to do all that yeah but that empathy has been

00:26:09.620 weaponized by straight white men in you know agps who are who are basically manipulating the empathy

00:26:17.060 that both women and gay people have for the outsider there's a problem there fundamentally that's akin to

00:26:25.480 the problem of the center and the margin no yes the the post-modernists the french intellectuals

00:26:32.200 assumed that the reason that any center was established was for no other reason than that of

00:26:38.880 power and so they construed the center against the against its opposite let's say that's like a

00:26:45.760 dialectic of thesis and antithesis but there's a problem with that conceptually because the center is

00:26:51.560 always a unity and any unity is surrounded by a margin right now and there's an uneasy balance

00:26:58.000 between the center and the margin because all centers have a margin and the margin is where all the

00:27:04.060 experimentation takes place that's necessary for the center to propagate itself across time because

00:27:09.400 it has to change somewhat as it moves but the problem with the margin is that every element of the

00:27:15.560 margin has a margin and then every element of the fringe of the margin has a margin and if you go

00:27:21.920 out far enough into the margin you don't encounter the oppressed you encounter the truly monstrous and

00:27:29.520 that's a very big problem yeah so but maybe part of the problem is that we no longer tolerate the

00:27:34.860 eccentric i mean john stuart mill writes about the importance of the eccentric within society uk was

00:27:39.720 always great at that too right exactly but if you don't and if you problematize eccentricity and and

00:27:45.140 demand conformity you you in other words you empower those even those further marginal states

00:27:50.440 that you're talking about those realms of the monstrous is that so much i think that they're uh it seems

00:27:56.540 to me more that they're they're giving eccentrics too much power uh i'm sorry that's what you said

00:28:01.800 well i'm saying that those aren't eccentric i'm saying the ones that they're empowering but there's people

00:28:05.340 like there's one guy a famous guy in the uk he's got a beard he appeared on this video that a wonderful

00:28:10.100 uh um scottish uh turf who died very young 34 years old maglum burns absolutely wonderful was first on the

00:28:18.420 scene of the crime and her videos are amazing uh i really recommend everyone watch them but um but she

00:28:24.640 did a famous one about stonewall where this it was the early days so they were they were quite kind of

00:28:30.280 up front about saying these ridiculous things and he and it was a guy with a beard named alex drummond

00:28:35.280 and he was saying things like i want to expand the bandwidth of what it means to be a woman

00:28:40.160 you know and magdalene said very you know uh in one of her many famous lines why don't you expand

00:28:47.300 the bandwidth of what it means to be a man you know and uh uh there's people like him in in any

00:28:54.240 normal world someone like that would just be an eccentric whose friends tolerated them and oh it's

00:29:00.840 just alex being alex but now he's like the figurehead for a movement well a bearded woman

00:29:06.680 that also might be a man woman that also might be a consequence to some degree an unintended consequence

00:29:12.100 of the technology that unites us the internet because before if you were an eccentric by definition

00:29:18.260 there was one of you but now online you can find the other thousands sprinkled throughout the world and

00:29:24.360 you're no longer an eccentric you're a movement yes right and so and and we have no idea what it

00:29:29.420 means what what that possibility of what would you say aggregation of the truly not even the eccentric

00:29:36.380 but the monstrous we have no idea what that aggregation means i suppose i suppose what i mean

00:29:40.940 though is that if we don't cherish the eccentricity eccentricity we don't have the arts we don't we don't

00:29:46.160 have creativity absolutely and so we've been demanding conformity from artists from the most free

00:29:52.520 thinking types and i don't think it's a coincidence that at the same time in our history we've

00:29:57.780 empowered these extremists yeah well maybe maybe one of the ways that you can tell when empathy for

00:30:04.960 the marginal has exceeded its boundaries is when the marginalized who are being empathized with

00:30:10.120 start to restrict eccentricity right when when the when the now included marginalized become

00:30:16.600 intolerant the empathetic endeavor has gone too far because they've become the powerful yes exactly

00:30:21.500 exactly because they're now making the rules well graham said to me once you said to me once about

00:30:25.720 uh the jester now sitting in the king's throne right yeah and i think that's that's sort of what's

00:30:30.680 happening to a complete inversion you know so we don't have i mean this is why graham and i are now

00:30:36.700 in america because we have to we're going to work in america rather than yeah we don't think the

00:30:41.260 creative arts in the uk are really fostering parted for for for places on unknown to into the united

00:30:48.240 states well yeah the same reason well exactly but i mean we've not exactly well no we've ended up in

00:30:54.920 this situation i suppose i should clarify because yes rob schneider is setting up a new company with

00:30:58.860 myself and another producer i've worked with a lot called martin gourlay and we've brought graham in

00:31:04.200 as well because graham's in a similar situation we're all over in arizona we never expected to be

00:31:08.960 here we're working on various projects now i genuinely don't think it's an exaggeration sounds

00:31:14.540 histrionic but i don't think we could have the kind of artistic freedom in the uk now in five

00:31:18.980 years i haven't written comedy in five years i had to write my memoir for for free basically to be

00:31:24.320 paid a bit on the back i don't i don't think it's histrionic like you i think people would think

00:31:28.720 a substantive amount of creative freedom and a certain amount of like supportive social infrastructure

00:31:36.520 in order to think creatively because you really have to be free to think creatively because it's risky

00:31:41.940 and you're going to certainly you're going to transgress against boundaries explicitly and

00:31:46.840 implicitly because while you're casting about for humor you're going to go too far from time to time

00:31:51.940 like obviously yes you know and you know too that the best comedy is the closest it can possibly be

00:31:58.700 to being offensive without quite managing it there's a great phrase in uh seinfeld writer has he says

00:32:05.260 laughter is a very strong spice so if you can make someone laugh at something then they probably will

00:32:10.240 forget to be offended have you noticed the shift within the comedians well you've noticed more than

00:32:15.620 most but within comedians themselves i mean i remember years ago maybe maybe even 10 years ago

00:32:20.640 there was a uh one club in london that had a document a contract you had to sign which sent out a list of

00:32:26.020 the topics you couldn't discuss and that was widely ridiculed within the comedic community no one

00:32:31.140 thought this was a good thing yeah and now you there's a club in london it's kind of standard kind of

00:32:34.920 i mean i wouldn't say it's standard insofar as most clubs don't do that yeah but but but but the

00:32:39.040 clubs that do the few clubs that do are not ridicule they're they're given awards and they

00:32:42.840 said this is this is the ideal now and you also have a more than a signed contract anyway you have

00:32:48.320 comedians kind of policing each other right in a more surreptitious way there's there's only one

00:32:53.260 kind of comedian that thrives in that kind of environment and that's a mediocre comedian you

00:32:58.540 know exactly i call them regime comedians that's a great well they're also thrilled about the regime

00:33:03.240 because it's the only see one of the things i've noticed about woke books especially the ones for

00:33:08.260 children is the illustrations are they're absolutely hideous yes they're talentless dull and and like

00:33:16.160 they're monstrous in their in their what in their incompetence they're so bad well the only possible

00:33:23.520 reason you got to illustrate that book and have it published is because it has the right political

00:33:27.380 message because no one in the right mind would look at a drawing that you made for more than two

00:33:31.460 seconds without turning aside and so you see the same thing is that this is one of the this is

00:33:36.380 certainly one of the things that i saw in universities and it was awful is that ideological

00:33:40.760 purity was the best possible camouflage for appalling mediocrity it's like well i can't do what

00:33:47.040 i'm supposed to do but i can certainly toe the bloody party line and if you need an enforcer well here i am

00:33:53.240 partly because i have nothing better to do or nothing better or nothing that i would like to do more

00:33:59.400 which is even worse yeah but what's great about all of this is none of this really ever caught on with

00:34:03.660 the audiences insofar as i think generally even though when you go to the edinburgh fringe festival

00:34:07.360 now most of the shows you're going to see will be lectures dressed up as comedy shows sermons in

00:34:11.940 disguise i was supposed to do a gig and they closed every venue that i tried to do yes i remember that

00:34:17.180 when i was yeah yeah it was just unbelievable right like you know you can see here i'm i'm not like

00:34:23.140 you're not evil i'm not i'm not rude or anything i try and so far wait wait until the beast will be

00:34:29.720 unleashed that's what i'm hoping yeah but like basically this picture has been built of me i i

00:34:34.980 the way i describe it is that i'm the victim of village gossip on a global scale yeah definitely

00:34:39.380 you know like wikipedia my wikipedia page the the thing it puts for at the front is that i once

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00:35:52.200 gender surgeries to uh nazi experiments on children but it's like like they what they it's

00:36:01.300 not so much a comparison as an identity i would say i'm serious like i've looked into medical atrocities

00:36:07.240 a lot and into the psychological motivations of the people that commit them and i don't think the

00:36:12.620 only things that i've read and i i truly believe this is the case the only things i've read on the

00:36:18.340 medical side that are worse than what the trans surgical butchers are doing right now are the

00:36:23.200 experiments conducted on the chinese by unit 731 in japan and that is like the for everyone watching

00:36:29.460 and listening do not go and read about unit 731 you will seriously regret it and that is the only

00:36:35.740 trigger warning i've ever offered publicly or to my students and i mean it so beware but that that

00:36:41.600 comparison is entirely apt it's entirely apt and so well the first uh vaginoplasty was performed by

00:36:48.460 a guy i think his name was gerpart who was in the um luftwaffe and performed hypothermia is that

00:36:56.680 is that how you say uh uh experiments on prisoners at daca uh-huh yeah well that's unit 731 right there

00:37:04.020 because that was what they specialized on that's the first vaginoplasty and now they're just practicing

00:37:09.320 it everywhere on mentally and mentally unstable people on people who have autism on people who

00:37:15.160 have depression even the intervention of puberty blockers i mean even that isn't justifiable if

00:37:19.480 you're saying that we all have a gender identity something we cannot define some esoteric essence

00:37:24.720 within ourselves and you're you're you're blocking the puberty of a of a child on the basis of that

00:37:31.080 pseudo-religious belief on i mean that's already unjustifiable on any metric i would have thought it's

00:37:36.060 assuming you accept the principle of non-contradiction and we're way past that it's

00:37:40.600 like gender is entirely fluid and it's divorced from sex except in the case of children who are

00:37:45.480 confused about their gender who have to be surgically transformed into the opposite sex yes like i see so

00:37:51.200 i'm supposed to accept all of that including the logical impossibility to say nothing of the absolute

00:37:57.020 bloody barbarism that's part of the surgery yeah i mean those surgeries it's no wonder schellenberger

00:38:02.460 wouldn't believe it because you don't want to know anything about those surgeries once you

00:38:07.600 clamber into the dismal realm of their actual reality and the side effects and oh my god and

00:38:14.280 the absolute foolish and preposterous notion that surgeons are capable of creating something as

00:38:20.260 complex as a vagina or a penis the bloody things barely work when you have one that's actually real

00:38:25.320 so well seriously man it's like we're gonna make one it's like no i don't think so

00:38:30.620 well you know in a lot of the photographs you see of the young girls who've had double

00:38:34.880 mastectomies we always see lots of tiny little scars along their arm yeah right you know and you

00:38:40.300 know the way they farm the skin from the arm to make the false penis yeah i once saw one of them

00:38:45.600 those false penises and they had those little tiny self-harming scars all over them yeah that's about

00:38:51.640 right this young woman was having a fake penis that would never work that they put in through the

00:38:56.440 side i think they have to come in from above to create the hole that the fake penis goes into

00:39:01.240 jesus you know does it mean that's the stuff of body horror that's that it is it's like i one of

00:39:07.120 the other things i got in trouble for early on and as i said this is a cronenberg movie yeah right

00:39:12.780 this is medical horror and body definitely you know and all these kids are not being told any of the

00:39:18.900 the consequences of puberty block i talked to i talked to chloe i don't remember chloe's last name

00:39:25.220 at the moment but she was one of their cole yes one of the very early trend desisters let's say

00:39:31.820 um very nice girl and uh very straightforward and the interview i did with her devolved quite

00:39:39.840 quickly or evolved into essentially a clinical interview because i was interested in what she

00:39:46.260 had been told prior to embarking on puberty blockers and hormonal transformation and then

00:39:51.780 ultimately at a very young age surgery and i asked her so like so it's well known in the

00:39:58.360 psychological community by anyone with even a modicum of training that negative emotion increases

00:40:03.820 in women when they hit puberty so if you measure levels of negative emotion which include bodily

00:40:09.360 self-consciousness by the way in boys and girls they're pretty much the same but once they hit puberty

00:40:14.620 women are more sensitive to negative emotion than men and they stay that way for the rest of their life

00:40:20.060 and so there's various theories about that one is uh sexual risk one is the difference in body size

00:40:27.380 that emerges between men and women at puberty because boys and girls are about the same in

00:40:31.260 strength but juvenile adolescents obviously aren't certainly men and women aren't and of course sex is

00:40:36.740 way more dangerous for women obviously and maybe the world as such is plus they have to take care of

00:40:42.140 infants so they're more sensitive to negative emotion and in women more than in men negative emotion

00:40:48.400 tends to take the form of bodily shame and self-awareness and there's all sorts of reasons

00:40:54.260 for that as well maybe one of them being that women are judged more harshly on their looks than men are

00:40:59.180 and it's a big difference anyways this is well established and no one who's trained um is unaware of it women

00:41:06.800 have more anxiety disorders more depression worldwide these are cross-culturally stable findings everyone

00:41:11.900 knows this and it's known that it emerges at puberty and i asked cole i said well you know you were

00:41:18.100 unhappy with your body what she told me was she had had fantasies of having a body like kim kardashian

00:41:26.620 very curvy right and she realized early on correctly or incorrectly it doesn't really matter

00:41:32.260 that she was likely to have a boyish figure now she's a very attractive girl and men have a very

00:41:38.900 wide range of what would you say types absolutely absolutely there's a wide range of feminine beauty

00:41:46.580 so she had no there was no reason for her to be concerned on that on that front any more than any

00:41:52.880 other girl might be and i asked her if anyone had ever told her that an increase in negative emotion

00:41:58.700 was common in puberty for girls or that it often took the form of body dysmorphia because that's

00:42:06.040 extremely common and when might even be the norm in pubertal women it's extremely common and those

00:42:11.160 are the first things she should have been told third thing first two things the third thing should

00:42:15.740 have been do you know that 90 percent of people with body dysmorphia which is very common in puberty

00:42:23.660 desist by the time they're 18 they just and that's been the standard approach for so-called gender

00:42:30.020 dysphoria for like four decades and again no one trained remotely trained doesn't know that yeah

00:42:37.180 she was told none of that yeah 20 minute bloody consultation session and she ended up with a

00:42:43.140 double mastectomy and even more uh fun you might say is that the surgical scars on her breasts never

00:42:50.980 healed properly yeah so that's her life you know and and compared to someone who's uh had a

00:42:56.740 uh reconstructed penis she got away lucky yeah you know and that's a terrible thing to say

00:43:03.520 and so yeah it's just it's someone i heard from um i think her name is that uh when these mothers who

00:43:12.660 have had double mastectomies and gone on to have children um when the baby cries there's still fibers

00:43:18.380 from the breast muscle uh in in their chest and it reacts and it hurts them when the baby cries but

00:43:24.600 they can't do anything about it because wow they've cut off their breasts because you know well the

00:43:29.500 the surgeons will reassure the girls that you can always have new breasts installed if you change

00:43:34.620 your mind and that's one of the marketing ploys of people who are promoting this absolute bloody

00:43:40.260 butchery didn't one person i can't remember who said it but one person said uh your breasts would grow

00:43:44.420 back you know really yeah i can't remember who said it but like i mean there's all sorts of kooks in

00:43:50.020 this movement as well like we it shares with the a priori presumption should be not only kook but

00:43:56.220 but what would you say manipulative narcissistic and malevolent kook opportunists you know i mean it

00:44:02.760 just goes like you know i always think about the line of men outside the courtroom going into the giselle

00:44:08.680 uh mercure is that her name mercure uh giselle you know the woman who's raped in her sleep her

00:44:15.640 husband right right right i always think about that line of men going in you know and i just think well

00:44:20.940 you know that's opportunity and and and we all think that we're all kind of good and but there's

00:44:27.520 always going to be men who if you move the line a little bit they're going to follow the line

00:44:31.180 well there's another thing to point out on that side too is that our default assumption when we

00:44:38.280 see a man participating in women's sports is that that person is a malignant narcissist

00:44:43.120 because first of all obviously because all you have to do is think about it for 15 seconds and

00:44:48.480 i'm dead serious about this it's like okay you're uh leah thomas i think that was william if i remember

00:44:54.980 yes that's right and that's a non-crime hate incident for those of you in the uk who want to

00:44:59.160 report it and so um he's six foot four i think that's about right massive shoulders you know a fairly

00:45:06.520 powerful swimmer i think he ranked 400th in the u.s among american swimmers of his age which is not

00:45:12.220 bad right i mean it's not number one and he definitely wanted to be number one but then you

00:45:16.900 think just put yourself in this position for a minute you're like a foot and a half taller than

00:45:21.480 the people that you're competing against and six inches broader in the shoulder and when you get up

00:45:26.880 on the podium and there's a claim not only do you enjoy it which is a sign that there's something

00:45:33.300 seriously wrong with you to begin with but you also are so deluded that you think you deserve it

00:45:40.260 and that you're a brave once victim for managing it now just just contemplate that imagine writing

00:45:48.800 a script about that do you know how staggeringly narcissistic you have to be to accept even one of

00:45:55.820 those propositions let alone to play yourself off as a heroic victim while you're doing it well not

00:46:02.900 not to be embarrassed off their off their podium and it's like you're the forthright champion of of

00:46:09.560 what civil rights or so it's so sickening laurel hubbard the weightlifter in new zealand was the son of a

00:46:17.900 billionaire he's like the son of like the equivalent would be kellogg's yes you know something like that

00:46:22.740 in new zealand and he beat two indigenous women who had worked their whole yeah lives you know to

00:46:28.940 to get to where they are and now they've got second and third and this man yes clear man yeah is it got

00:46:36.060 first he's an average man but he's a hell of a woman but what i can't what i find difficult to explain

00:46:41.780 i'd love to see what you think of this is the people who really confuse me are the people who stand by and

00:46:49.520 and just let it happen i don't i don't understand psychologically why there was such an agreement

00:46:55.260 for the last five years amongst all my friends and and some even some family members that that i had

00:47:02.660 become evil well i think i wonder about this well the first thing we need to understand is that

00:47:09.620 the camouflage in which the narcissists and butchers that we're describing

00:47:16.200 um enmesh themselves is in the camouflage of empathy and empathy is a cardinal moral virtue

00:47:25.000 now the problem is the problem starts when you believe that the the fundamental essence of goodness

00:47:32.620 is empathy because that's wrong goodness is much more complex than a mere one-dimensional analysis

00:47:37.920 would presume but if you're if you're if i can accuse you of being non-empathetic that's a pretty

00:47:45.960 decent slur now empathy also was the a valid impetus or motivation for many things that were

00:47:54.980 laudable so the american civil rights movement for example right now the problem is is that it can

00:48:00.960 and this is the problem this is being demonstrated time and again by game theorists working in the

00:48:07.220 biological realm imagine you have a community of cooperators a game that's set up so that people

00:48:12.640 only cooperate if everyone cooperates the game can sustain itself and improve as it's played but if

00:48:20.000 you throw one shark into the tank then it takes everything so there's a empathy is a very useful

00:48:27.640 foundation for social interactions i trust you and i trust you great now we can cooperate the problem

00:48:34.540 is is that if you get a community of cooperators established non-cooperators can move in and dominate

00:48:41.420 and so there's an ambivalence between trust and skepticism that's bound to emerge okay so we produced

00:48:49.780 a society that was very trust-based in which empathy could function very effectively and then it got

00:48:56.220 weaponized now it got weaponized by psychopaths and narcissists fundamentally and sadists we know their

00:49:02.200 type they're machiavellian so they use language to get what they want they're narcissistic so they

00:49:07.340 want undeserved attention they're um psychopathic so they're predatory parasites and they're sadistic

00:49:15.100 so they're fun people and they weaponize empathy and it's unbelievably effective now part of the reason

00:49:21.040 it's effective and part of the reason i think that people didn't stand up they didn't stand up for me

00:49:25.660 in canada although some people did and some journalists none of my professional colleagues

00:49:30.160 to speak of almost no psychologists virtually no physicians agreeable empathetic people don't believe

00:49:38.860 that the parasitic predatory machiavellian narcissists exist they don't have that space in their imagination

00:49:45.540 and for them so their default assumption is that anyone who's misbehaving is a victim yes now you can

00:49:52.700 even even that's understandable because you can say look 80 percent of the people in prison were

00:50:00.580 victimized now not everybody who's victimized turns into a criminal in fact quite the reverse so that's

00:50:06.680 you know a rather weak demonstration but that that still also leaves the 20 percent right and they're

00:50:13.020 the 20 percent that include the psychopathic rapists who win the scottish national parliament decides that

00:50:20.240 men and women are the same decide that it's time for them to go into the women's prisons all the

00:50:24.960 agreeable people think oh those people don't exist they're just misunderstood they're then why don't

00:50:30.180 they now i think there's other factors in your case though no because the other there are two other

00:50:34.860 factors i think and one of which is that psychopaths are scary and i think that to stand up for graham

00:50:40.120 in that situation would have made yourself a target i think that can't be underestimated i think that's

00:50:44.960 very very oh definitely but i think also you know i just hearing you you're discussing now that they've

00:50:49.920 aggregated online right yeah exactly attack effect now got a almost no you can't even face your accuser

00:50:55.680 there's zero consequences of accusing someone so that also enables everybody who delights an

00:51:01.400 accusation you think right well they've got they've got a like that they've got a digital militia they've

00:51:05.760 got they've got that but there's also the you know i mean when you're talking about some of the

00:51:09.360 things you're describing about the body horror stuff about the the beliefs that we're expected

00:51:13.480 to swallow i think if you would have played this conversation to someone 15 20 years ago it would

00:51:19.040 have been incomprehensible to them what they're hearing i think a lot of people just simply did

00:51:22.900 not understand what was happening did it did not did not comprehend the exactly so how can you stand up

00:51:29.260 for how can you expend that energy to uh understand the incomprehensible in order to defend you i think a lot

00:51:36.600 of it is is simply that no smoke without fire that so many people are saying graeme lenehan is a bigot

00:51:41.940 that's readily comprehensible in one sentence i can i can understand that but i cannot understand this

00:51:47.700 whole other thing well it's also cost free yes like the cost to any given person for writing you off

00:51:53.780 you know now you might argue about that with regards to your very close friends but like i i when we

00:51:59.460 we met at a restaurant the other night and i mentioned to you that i'd been following you on x for a long

00:52:03.760 time and it was probably probably took me six months of following you before i trusted you oh well

00:52:11.500 because even though i know that this thing happens all the time oh yeah and and even though i know that

00:52:19.080 i knew that in all likelihood you were one of the people that it happened to i still wondered well you

00:52:24.840 know as everyone does where there's smoke there might be fire and and it's just that's in in addition to

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00:53:02.820 you're asking a lot of people to defend you they have to admit to the existence of an evil that

00:53:08.300 first of all they can't comprehend and second of all they do not want to admit to and no bloody

00:53:12.980 wonder it's not surprising so i mean it happened recently where a well-known author boyne john boyne

00:53:18.900 came out who was someone who had attacked he wrote the boy in the striped pajamas very famous novel

00:53:23.800 he had um attacked graham back in the day and i saw this thing it was an incredible post he wrote

00:53:28.780 an apology online and said he's he now understands it he's now looked into it he says i was wrong you

00:53:34.960 were right i'm sorry he said that yeah it's quite a brave thing for him to do by doing that he's also

00:53:39.900 put himself in the fire online to a degree but of course every time someone does that and every time

00:53:44.900 they are piled on and destroyed and demonized and monstered it sends a message out to everyone else

00:53:49.400 you don't want to be that person it takes a certain kind of strength well it's also the case too that

00:53:53.880 a lot of this is now instantiated in law yes so for example in canada if you're a physician or a

00:54:00.800 psychologist yes and you object to gender affirming care which is one of those phrases that's so

00:54:07.180 pathological that it's truly a miracle of deception then the probability that you'll be reported by an

00:54:14.540 activist somewhere and that you'll face at minimum like years of legal entanglement at your expense

00:54:21.640 with a high probability of losing your professional status in your license like the probability of that

00:54:26.400 is virtually a hundred percent is it worth exploring i mean the the weaponization of the law in the uk

00:54:31.500 yeah you've mentioned non-crime hate incidents would it be worth me explaining what that is and

00:54:36.340 because that's the key weapon that activists have well we do want to delve into that because one of the

00:54:41.160 things we also want to explore is why you guys decided to move to the united states yes you know

00:54:46.280 and so and i'm spending a lot of my time in the united states for very similar reasons and know of

00:54:51.620 very many other people who are doing the same thing it's no bloody wonder this country thrives say

00:54:56.200 because whenever any other place becomes unstable you can flee so to speak if you're the least bit

00:55:03.900 creative and pursue whatever it is you want to pursue here and and actually be i would say actually be

00:55:09.480 appreciated for it okay so talk about the situation in the uk and define this non-crime non-crime hate

00:55:16.260 incident i think people here find it incredible because obviously you have the first amendment in

00:55:19.740 the u.s we don't have a codified constitution it's not quite as central in the uk freedom of speech

00:55:25.380 yeah yeah even though it's basically an english principle that the americans adopted that's an

00:55:30.120 understatement but which is why a lot of us were so disturbed when in that vice presidential debate

00:55:34.280 with tim waltz and jd vance oh yeah tim waltz effectively said that hate speech wasn't covered

00:55:38.360 by the first amendment a comment by the way which didn't make it to the official transcripts i

00:55:43.000 noticed anyway it doesn't matter it didn't no i think it was because he was speaking at the same

00:55:46.900 time as vance that might be the excuse chilling thing to say though yeah um well especially when

00:55:52.320 the question who the hell defines hate immediately exists and the answer is the person that you least

00:55:59.160 want to exactly always yeah yeah well that's leveraged immediately absolutely and also waltz is a lot to

00:56:05.040 to uh to cover up you know because it's going to come out uh what's been happening to these kids

00:56:10.760 and he kind of made that uh possible yeah absolutely but i i think i suppose to to explain what happened

00:56:16.820 in the because i don't think people in the u.s will understand how the police well so what happened there

00:56:22.520 was a horrific murder of a black teenager called stephen lawrence in the early 90s as a result and that

00:56:28.100 was racially motivated and as a and the there was a failure among the police to take it seriously in

00:56:34.200 the way that they should have done and so raised or terrified them which was institutionally race

00:56:38.140 right exactly so there was a report commission called the mcpherson report came out in 1999 which

00:56:44.600 did find that there was institutional racism within the police or there was a problem certainly a problem

00:56:48.740 within racism that was the first time that we had a document uh which outlined the difference

00:56:54.060 between crime racist incidents as being defined as criminal and non-criminal it didn't use the

00:56:59.380 phrase non-crime hate incidents but it made this distinction and it said that both ought to be

00:57:03.760 reported this was the recommendation of mcpherson in that report but then you have to fast forward a

00:57:08.820 long time uh you go forward to 2014 2014 is the time when the college of policing this is the body in

00:57:16.900 england and wales which is responsible for training all police forces across england and wales and they

00:57:22.040 are a kind of quango they are an administrative body that effectively the government has outsourced

00:57:27.060 the responsibility to train police in the law in this country they invented this idea of non-crime

00:57:33.580 hate incidents uh with one eye on the mcpherson report so that's the origin of it and they decided

00:57:40.760 that um if anyone perceived that a non-crime had been committed something offensive something that hurt

00:57:47.280 them if they perceived that it had been motivated uh by a prejudice or hatred against one of the

00:57:52.880 protected characteristics race gender sex expanding in canada it includes gender expression well in

00:58:00.660 which is fashion in uk law it includes uh gender reassignment but it's interesting that the uh

00:58:07.700 college of policing changed that to trans identity so they actually they made it up as they went along

00:58:12.980 um so you had now a system implemented in uk law not in law sorry implemented among the uk police

00:58:20.840 where the police were told uh if anyone contacts you and says i've been offended and i perceive it was

00:58:26.720 to do with this you report it record it as a non-crime hate incident against someone's name it's on file

00:58:32.920 you don't notify the person who's being recorded as such this come up in a superficial search but it can

00:58:40.220 come up in a deep search i believe there's a thing called a disclosure in barring service check

00:58:44.660 where if you apply for a job which is sensitive in some way say you want to be a teacher or a carer

00:58:49.520 you have a dbs check it will come up there and if it is if it's flagged there so that's a social

00:58:55.760 credit system you won't get the job yeah like there's no there's no headmaster or headmistress

00:58:59.680 in the world who's going to see something flagged and then employ zero you're done so you have a

00:59:04.120 situation now where members of the public with a grudge yeah can weaponize this against anyone they

00:59:11.440 like for whatever reasons of activists with grudges and the cps the crown prosecution service

00:59:16.000 and the college of policing have explicitly said that no evidence is required for hate to be recorded

00:59:21.840 there doesn't need to be evidence of hate it's just solely about the perception of this yeah now

00:59:27.120 this all came to a head recently because it's how could that go wrong well sure by the way i should

00:59:31.920 note that the this isn't just about mcpherson the chief executive of the college of policing at the

00:59:39.020 time that non-crime hate incidents were implemented in 2014 was a man called uh alex marshall i think

00:59:45.340 uh he was the uh he'd won the previous year stonewall's top award in the in the country he became an lgbt

00:59:52.460 envoy so in other words he's an activist you have high-ranking activists within the police within the

00:59:58.420 college of policing who are effectively dragging the police force along in their wake often reluctantly

01:00:04.360 um but the reason why this is i think so chilling now and it's become uh a lot of people are talking

01:00:10.140 about it now because it's effectively a form of pre-crime it's effectively philip k dick's idea of

01:00:15.060 pre-crime their justification is non uh non sorry what do they say they say that unless we record

01:00:21.140 non-crime hate incidents we won't be able to monitor them in case they escalate into actual crime

01:00:25.720 but of course all crime is preceded by non-crime and it cannot be any other way we you know we've

01:00:31.540 actually superseded you characters in the uk and canada i know about this yes 63 yes i got to tell

01:00:38.180 you about this bill it's it's in second reading in the house and i think the bloody liberals will pass

01:00:42.700 it before trudeau gets turfed right and so not the t-e-r-f turf but the other kind um

01:00:49.260 okay so this is sandwiched in the layers of a bill that purports to protect children from online

01:00:58.320 sexual abuse okay so and who could object to that obviously even though the bill does almost nothing

01:01:04.500 to actually make that to decrease the probability of that i've read this like five times because i

01:01:12.000 can't believe it's actually true i keep thinking i can't say this because it can't be true it's but

01:01:16.560 here's what i understand i can take you in front of a provincial magistrate

01:01:21.900 and if i can convince that magistrate that you might commit a hate crime in the next year

01:01:28.820 so a non-crime hate incident but you might not even you have you might i might that i'm afraid that

01:01:35.280 you might yes if i can show that my fear is justified whatever the hell that means then

01:01:41.220 you can have an electronic bracelet affixed to your ankle for a year you can be confined to your

01:01:47.920 house your communication with the outside world including social media can be restricted to virtually

01:01:54.700 nothing and for reasons that i really can't understand at all you will be required to provide

01:02:00.460 samples of your bodily fluids to the authorities on a regular basis i think to determine whether you've

01:02:06.680 been consuming alcohol or marijuana is like marijuana doesn't make you commit hate crimes alcohol might

01:02:12.420 but but i think they probably got that from domestic abuse law right because if if you're a drunk and

01:02:19.060 you're a domestic abuse you're much more likely to re-offend but so we we've surpassed the non-crime

01:02:26.040 as a precursor to crime we have fear of non-crime as a precursor to crime okay can i can i put uh let's

01:02:31.480 let's have a competition then uh i think you're winning at the moment of stupidity canada's really in the

01:02:36.120 forefront of this a competition of authoritarianism and stupidity i think we've we've got a few more

01:02:40.440 cards to play in the uk insofar as um for instance um there have been estimates around a quarter of a

01:02:46.880 million non-crime hate incidents recorded they happen at the dinner table all the time i think

01:02:51.780 it's i think it's like 62 a day or something is the average especially in the uk because you guys are

01:02:55.440 so cutting with your tongues i mean it's like a national sport exactly but worse than that is that the

01:03:02.160 college of policing has been instructed twice by the home office to stop doing this two home secretaries

01:03:08.040 in succession uh priti patel and suwala bravaman said to them you can't do this anymore issued new

01:03:14.040 guidelines not only did they ignore the guidelines but incidents of non-crime recording has gone up

01:03:19.020 since the government has said you can't do this in addition to that the high court ruled uh that it

01:03:24.600 was effectively um they said it was a chilling it had a chilling effect on freedom of speech the judge

01:03:29.960 compared it to the stasi said we've never had a gestapo in this country they effectively said uh

01:03:35.120 you know this is not lawful and uh so in other words the college of policing an individual activist

01:03:40.960 group that trains the police in our country has ignored the government twice and the high court wants

01:03:46.100 and has fudged the language and now we have a labor government that has said it wants to uh ramp up

01:03:51.660 non-crime hate incidents we've had a vet cooper saying these are really important we need to record

01:03:56.900 non-crime now you might still be winning on the candidate front because we haven't got to the

01:04:01.580 point where if i think you've you might commit a crime yeah but but to give a very specific example

01:04:06.820 which is why it's so it's been written about a lot over the last few weeks is because a journalist

01:04:11.200 in the uk allison pearson telegraph journalist was visited on remembrance sunday morning by two police

01:04:17.660 officers and they said we are investigating you for a crime of stirring up racial hatred and she said

01:04:23.520 uh what is the complaint against me what is the crime we can't tell you what the crime is or what

01:04:28.780 the tweet is it was a tweet right right from a year ago yeah so you don't know the crime or the

01:04:33.460 accusers right she asked about the accuser and they said it's not the accuser it's the victim so in other

01:04:38.940 words so we don't have due process we don't have due process either yeah um now you'll know the novel

01:04:45.440 the trial presumption of innocence right because who needs that exactly exactly but in the trial by kafka

01:04:51.260 the first scene is two police officers turning up at his house and he says what have i done wrong

01:04:56.500 we cannot tell you that you do not need to know that this was a replay of that yeah so when she

01:05:00.740 describes it as kafka-esque she's not being hyperbolic right straight out of the first chapter of the

01:05:05.180 trial and he never finds out what he's done wrong in that novel right until the grisly end of that

01:05:09.820 novel so go on sorry graham no i was just going to say i've had three visits i've had two visits from

01:05:14.980 the police one on a sunday morning as befits a big yes tell him because it'll beat canada if you tell

01:05:19.920 well we'll see i've got one up my sleeves oh yeah that's true okay so yeah like tell the story

01:05:24.540 well uh i started reporting on the activities of a serial con man um victim i'll be victim

01:05:33.200 who was taking women to court uh getting them put in prison cells and so on and uh he called that

01:05:41.580 harassment used it uh first of all to call the police on me then uh sent me a uh a summons

01:05:49.780 he sued me at the same time because he's what i what i call a prison lawyer you know oh yeah

01:05:54.520 yeah he knows about the law and uh that's what he does he just he just puts people under uh uh the

01:06:01.620 stress of a uh called malignant narcissism by the way yeah and then just just at the end he drops it

01:06:08.580 you know he owes he owes me costs he owes everyone costs anyway found out recently that apart from all

01:06:15.380 this he uh was a sexual offender he was uh imprisoned for sexual offenses against a 14 year

01:06:21.380 old boy you know this is the guy who has the british police working for him going to people's

01:06:27.320 houses knocking on doors did they tell you actually to be they told you you're sin though didn't they

01:06:32.340 they told me that yeah well they just you could hear it in the voice of the guy of the policeman on

01:06:38.880 the other end of the phone this was the first first time it was just a phone call and you could tell

01:06:44.080 he did not know what was going on you know and he said yeah that's even worse yeah it's kind of like

01:06:50.740 it's just pure procedure and um he said to me uh can you block them on twitter or something yeah and i

01:06:58.780 said i already have them blocked this was i knew immediately this was a malignant and appalling

01:07:04.340 person i blocked him i said i blocked him years ago you know yeah and he was confused by that you

01:07:09.520 know because he didn't he didn't he he just didn't really know what's going on so they just

01:07:14.020 these activists just say the right words to wind them up and they go to people's doors the real fear

01:07:19.780 i have is that you can't vote it out because all of this came about during the tories and now we've

01:07:24.420 got labor and so you know whatever you get because the because the college of policing and because the

01:07:29.800 police are they do their own thing they decide their own thing they don't care about what they're told

01:07:33.580 to do by the government it's not a right or left issue both are bad but i do think and we've had

01:07:38.000 conversations about this i do think that with a labor government in the uk things are getting a

01:07:42.080 lot worse a lot quicker so no matter how stupid the conservatives are the labor party can do what

01:07:46.640 do worse well it's well it's not just now about non-crime we've had a lot of cases since the riots

01:07:52.200 in summer yeah after the murder of those three children in southport by that christian welshman

01:07:57.340 the the ethnically well no this is a yes i know what you're doing there yeah um he um you know we've

01:08:03.900 had people who wrote and the al-qaeda he had an al-qaeda training manual which is every christian

01:08:09.340 welshman has that standard welsh practice to have that um but but he um there were riots there was

01:08:15.560 anger there was a lot of obvious justified anger uh there were also some horrendous people

01:08:20.180 opportunistically turning up from the far right to attack and and destroy and defame all of that is

01:08:25.720 true but the problem is we've had people who've in anger have tweeted things out that i do find

01:08:30.660 objectionable you know uh things that are racist things that are unpleasant and there's uh let me

01:08:35.780 give you an example there's one woman lucy connolly and she wrote out i don't care anymore

01:08:39.560 we should burn down the hotels that they're in we should just you know i don't care yeah i remember

01:08:43.580 not pleasant yeah 31 months in prison said in anger by the way deleted very quickly said in anger

01:08:49.780 deleted quickly uh 31 months in prison in there've been a number of cases like that yeah and one of the

01:08:55.880 common factors is that all of the judges have said we are setting an example we're giving you the

01:09:00.580 harshest jail term to set an example to others yeah and this is those were the court cases that

01:09:05.520 were sped along so they were efficaciously and and previous to that keir starmer had said that he

01:09:11.880 wanted judges to do this so it's all there's a weird offenders removed from their cells to make

01:09:17.780 room for these women my problem with this they were victims my problem with this is manifold i mean

01:09:22.680 firstly the draconianism of the jail terms is a problem in and of itself for language for speech

01:09:27.800 i don't approve of the speech but there is no evidence whatsoever that that tweet by that woman

01:09:33.620 caused any violence in the real world none whatsoever and no one can tell you different

01:09:37.380 we've had decades of research into this we know that that's not how it works people don't tweet and

01:09:43.240 then violence happens as a direct result if you know we know that we need deep in violence it's why

01:09:49.160 in this in the uk us you have the brandenberg test for incitement to violence uh which would mean

01:09:54.360 that you know that firstly it has to be there has to be an intention to cause violence that it is

01:10:00.220 likely to cause violence and that there is imminent risk of violence so none of these people

01:10:04.840 currently languishing in prison cells in the uk for tweets uh meet anywhere near the threshold of

01:10:10.000 the brandenberg test we don't have that so the the chilling effect that this has not just on people

01:10:16.140 who are saying nasty things the chilling effect on people expressing themselves in any way we've got

01:10:21.080 a guy who's just been found guilty of stirring up hatred because of a halloween costume that he wore

01:10:26.940 he dressed up as the manchester bomber which is sick and unpleasant that's the point halloween too it's

01:10:33.000 halloween which is like when you do it's about horror up in sick and unpleasant costumes there's a kind

01:10:38.440 of joke in that is that you're trying to out gross everyone else he's waiting the prison sentence we

01:10:44.700 don't know how long he's going to be in prison whoa but why is starting a business can be tough

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01:11:53.840 one and in a comedian who got nailed for teaching his dog to do the hippie slew

01:12:01.960 oh that's i'm involved in that story count count uh count dankula

01:12:05.820 graham should tell this because he uh okay okay you made it worse well i i i these were the days just

01:12:13.760 before i got cancelled and um and i believed everything that was being told to me about the

01:12:19.680 new right uh-huh you know or the online right or whatever which you are now an honorary member

01:12:24.940 by the way so i understand um and uh and this guy uh was doing these kind of videos and he did one

01:12:32.640 video where he got his dog his he had a pug it was his girlfriend's dog it was his girlfriend's dog

01:12:38.460 didn't like it and he shouldn't have because it was a pug yes that's a lovely dog i've missed it so

01:12:43.100 he secretly taught it to do a hitler salute and and i rather than seeing this as a quite a funny gag

01:12:49.480 to play on your girlfriend um saw it as as hidden messages trying anti-semitism all this sort of

01:12:56.980 stuff and he really was just messing about and having a joke and uh well it's a testament to hitler

01:13:04.980 yeah you know i mean seriously well actually didn't you have to do one of my many apologies

01:13:09.620 i don't want to drop you in i don't want to drop you in it my apology tour didn't you try and stop

01:13:13.540 his crowdfunder from getting i did i did something something for which i'll spend a few years in in

01:13:18.980 limbo uh even better by the way for this conversation i at the time wrote a satirical

01:13:24.000 piece i was writing this character called jonathan pie i was the co-writer of this character and uh we

01:13:29.060 wrote this satirical piece mocking the court's decision where the character you know and graham

01:13:34.600 attacked me for that online did i think you called me alt-right or fascist oh i'm so sorry

01:13:39.200 no no i'm not i'm not saying it to embarrass you i think it's quite funny it's a nice little

01:13:42.640 connection we have back back in the day before we were friends yeah we i was a fascist but you know

01:13:48.240 i i did that now it's important to highlight these sorts of things though because you you want to see

01:13:53.500 where you're just like i said it took me like six months to trust you on x you want to see

01:13:58.340 it's not like only those people are susceptible to this like mass hysteria it's you go to watch and

01:14:05.320 see where you're susceptible and if you and if you have been susceptible in some manner you should

01:14:10.700 admit it well you know at one point during the covid epidemic the so-called covid epidemic

01:14:18.400 um i got vaccinated twice now in my defense i was very ill at the time and wasn't really able to

01:14:26.580 think but i did get vaccinated but i also said at the end of one podcast and i would say in some ways

01:14:34.220 despite some inner prompting that people should just get the damn vaccine you know and my thinking

01:14:41.860 at the time was was seriously i was like i'll take the shots here's the deal i'll take the shots

01:14:49.040 you leave me the hell alone and then i found out instantly that the deal was you take the shots and

01:14:55.220 then you take six more and forget about being left alone and that was the end of that as far as i was

01:15:00.980 concerned but still i made a mistake you know i made a mistake and i would say it was very difficult

01:15:07.520 for me at that point to believe that the pharmaceutical companies had become so corrupt that you couldn't

01:15:12.780 trust their vaccine policy yeah you know it was it was easier to think that it was the more

01:15:19.620 conspiratorially minded you know alt-right types that were pushing this doctrine and saying something

01:15:24.760 cures that cognitive dissonance even briefly yeah you get to turn it off just for a few seconds and

01:15:31.500 think oh at least i made a decision yeah don't you find right there's that too all of this is suggestive

01:15:36.260 of this idea that there is a real problem we have at the moment where there's an expectation of moral

01:15:40.320 purity from all sides i've seen a similar thing there like where people have people either you know

01:15:45.660 didn't understand what was going on during the pandemic and maybe supported lockdowns or etc and

01:15:50.340 they get piled on and attacked by by these very sort of almost like an equivalent of the woke on the

01:15:56.240 the sort of lockdown skeptic side as well i don't think any particular group is is uh is immune to this

01:16:01.920 idea this kind of expectation everyone must think the same way as me on every single point well it's part

01:16:07.440 of group identity really like i mean it's necessary for human beings to cooperate to reach consensus

01:16:13.820 yes that's almost universal on everything rapidly right because otherwise we can't cooperate so no

01:16:19.880 but something's changed because i i remember being at university debating friends late into the night

01:16:25.560 drinking rowing but in a good-natured way we didn't not be friends the next day because we

01:16:31.560 fundamentally disagreed we actually relished the the fundamental disagreements and they were part of

01:16:36.280 the friendship that's not possible now the net has enabled the the reputation savaging psychopaths so

01:16:42.720 you know that the female pattern of bullying because there's a female pattern of anti-social

01:16:47.080 personality the female version isn't violence the female version is reputation savaging right and

01:16:53.640 men can also partake in reputation savaging if they do that in real life they they get into a fight

01:17:00.140 women don't because women won't fight physically and so but men will but online there's no

01:17:06.380 consequences to reputation savaging whatsoever in fact it's probably amplified by the social media

01:17:12.280 companies and the algorithms and so yeah i think not only can the reputation savagers aggregate they

01:17:18.100 can do so anonymously they can levy accusations without any consequences whatsoever and the

01:17:24.140 consequences of that are rapid and devastating because it's easy to write someone off is it as

01:17:29.120 mobilized as that though i don't think it's i don't think it's mobilized i think it's more

01:17:32.480 something has changed in the air so i think it's mobilized too there are definitely well aggregations of

01:17:38.300 activists who are weaponizing the professional colleges for example yeah sure no no i think that

01:17:42.580 is happening but i think for a lot of people they are being caught in a wave of societal change where

01:17:47.000 this is just now the norm but can i say go on sorry graham i think it's like uh it's not just as

01:17:52.460 weaponized it's that is that the the panopticon or whatever you want to call it is frictionless right

01:17:58.360 you like there's a very funny uh onion uh thing about arson at a party being disproved

01:18:03.840 by the 60 000 photographs that were taken at it you know yes and everyone just has a different

01:18:09.740 angle of a cigarette falling to the floor you know that was taken i've seen that yeah yeah and it's

01:18:15.000 just because we without realizing it have become the apparatus of a police state you know but it's all

01:18:21.460 it's all just part of the fabric of our lives we would not it's like recently i found out do you

01:18:27.520 remember pokemon go was big for a while so people were going down the street and they were finding

01:18:31.620 pokemon well apparently that was a company who wanted to get people to do their gps uh work for

01:18:38.640 them so they got all they put they put pokemon pokemon in places where there wasn't a gps uh record

01:18:46.140 of it and they got all these people to go out and film it for them that's smart you know what i mean

01:18:50.640 so so the the so you know in the in the story of the tower the story of the tower of babel is a very

01:18:56.720 interesting story in this regard because so what happens in the opening chapters of genesis is you

01:19:02.560 have a account of the two ways that society collapse so it's it's propelled by the sin of

01:19:09.020 cain and he becomes vengeful and bitter because his offerings to god are rejected so he's a bitter

01:19:14.500 and resentful individual who isn't offering his best and he becomes murderous and his descendants

01:19:20.620 become genocidal okay so that's the individual pathology the disintegration of the descendants of

01:19:26.960 that pathological uh individual and then you have the flood and so the flood is a descent into utter chaos

01:19:33.620 right but then you have the tower of babel and the tower of babel is equally catastrophic but

01:19:39.020 opposite it's the imposition of the all-seeing eye of sauron or the panopticon right and it's literally

01:19:46.860 built by engineers because the people who build the tower of babel in the biblical accounts are the

01:19:52.840 descendants of the people who build cities and machines right so they they're aiming at the wrong

01:19:58.680 goal right and they build this massive machine that's dedicated to the wrong ideal and the immediate

01:20:07.740 consequence of that is that words lose their meaning and everyone is at odds with one another yes you

01:20:13.100 know and it's and we we have got that we've got this problem right we've built this new power of

01:20:18.480 babel which is this interconnected world which is biologically revolutionary right like what happens

01:20:23.600 when everyone's immediately connected well maybe bad ideas spread 50 times faster than good ideas like we

01:20:29.640 have no idea right maybe the psychopaths are unleashed like and you know maybe there's an infinite

01:20:34.900 possibility to educate everyone like there's a lot of things on the table but we have no idea what we're

01:20:39.720 doing and it's certainly the case that words in many ways have lost their meaning we've talked about

01:20:46.140 exactly that we we can't assume that we're referring to the same thing no matter what we talk about and so

01:20:52.940 so you know you see in in china of course they're much farther along the totalitarian road than we are

01:20:59.660 maybe we won't go down that road but 600 million cctv cameras right which is about one for every two

01:21:06.720 people and they can do perfect face recognition but if you cover your face they can recognize you

01:21:12.120 with unerring accuracy merely by gate every bloody thing you do is tracked yeah and that's certainly a

01:21:18.760 road we could walk down i mean you go into an airport now and before you board a plane your picture is

01:21:24.320 taken now you can opt out for now and the gates are increasingly automated which is all well and good

01:21:30.720 inconvenient when the goddamn things open but pretty rough on you if they don't yes because then what

01:21:37.000 we're going to talk what are you going to do talk to the gate yeah seems unlikely and so it i mean it's

01:21:43.560 easy even to point to the political what the hypothetical political causes of this it's the progressive left

01:21:50.720 it's like yeah something else partly but it's certainly partly the fact that we don't know what the hell

01:21:56.540 we're doing in this interconnected world it might be that period of time when you know we have this

01:22:00.420 revolutionary new technology that we don't know how to handle we don't know what it will produce

01:22:04.280 i did read somewhere that that at the invention of the printing press there were similar moments of

01:22:08.280 hysteria hundred years of it afterwards wasn't it in other words it took a kind of calming down

01:22:12.700 a readjustment process before we understood how to deal with books well it also blew the it blew

01:22:18.300 christendom apart right because you had the massive right what what altercations between the

01:22:25.000 protestants and the catholics and it was a direct consequence of the printing press something very

01:22:29.140 freeing about that all of a sudden you can read god's word in the vernacular which was the the

01:22:33.360 church was was protecting its power by by preventing well it also meant eventually that the entire world

01:22:39.840 was made literate like it was a major league transformation but maybe to be positive maybe this

01:22:45.360 tower of babel at the moment that we're building maybe this this period we're in uh will have a

01:22:49.400 settling down period in its wake well i mean ultimately depends on how we conduct ourselves like if you guys

01:22:54.080 move to phoenix yes and you start your entertainment consortium and you start making comedy that can

01:23:00.440 actually be viewed by people and that's genuinely funny and free then you're going to tilt the world

01:23:05.420 a little farther away from the all-seeing eye of sauron and the tower of babel and towards something

01:23:10.580 approximating freedom that we just need to turn that into a logo yeah that's right if you can think

01:23:15.440 of anything you can use the tower of babel although the eec has already managed that right right but

01:23:21.480 there's something about tilting the world in that in that direction is it's it's the it's it's not

01:23:26.040 new i mean it's not it's what you're identifying really is the is the is the enduring appeal of

01:23:30.380 authoritarianism throughout human history forever which forever which will manifest itself in one

01:23:34.960 way or another and it just so happens that at the moment it's manifesting itself in this way

01:23:38.240 yeah and it seems to me that it's fast and quicker than ever before that's right uh so it's being

01:23:43.640 it's been catalyzed in this strange way but i it feels to me as though the struggle in of itself

01:23:49.740 between liberty and authority is one thing but the struggle to recognize the threat of authority

01:23:53.560 of authoritarianism seems to be another battle you have to have yeah in other words well sure

01:23:58.200 because the attack doesn't come from the position you expect not if it's going to be effective well

01:24:03.200 the labor government don't think that they're authoritarians they don't they think that they're

01:24:07.020 doing good when the when kirstama said in parliament today that he felt that um desecrating a holy

01:24:13.180 book was unacceptable and divisive and awful he wasn't thinking of the bigger picture in terms of

01:24:17.940 this is a gateway to authoritarianism blasphemy laws you know once you start down that line

01:24:21.840 in other words it's the well-intentioned authoritarian which which which is particularly

01:24:27.100 what we have to challenge or the one who wants to appear well-intentioned in the moment with no

01:24:32.640 further thought or effort yes right well religious hypocrites fundamentally so it's the psychopaths who

01:24:39.000 are proceeding along that line what concerns me more is the fellow travelers who are benevolent

01:24:45.620 and who subscribe to this tyranny out of a sense of this is better for the world those are the ones

01:24:51.660 that i find harder to deal with i have less i have less sympathy for for those people i would say too

01:24:58.180 because the problem i have with them and i think keir starmer certainly justin trudeau fits into this

01:25:03.800 category is they want the moral approbation for being good people without doing the work it's actually

01:25:09.520 really hard to be a good person you have to work at it all the time and against your uh what would you

01:25:15.140 say alternative inclinations so i want to tell you another story that's relevant to your venture here

01:25:21.660 in the united states too so there's a story in the biblical texts in the story of abraham that has to

01:25:28.040 do with the probability that city will be destroyed for ethical impropriety and cities are destroyed for

01:25:34.200 ethical impropriety all the time right they go to hell and they go to hell in a handbasket and then

01:25:39.160 all hell breaks loose and that's the end of that that happens all the time so well this is the story

01:25:45.300 so angels of god visit abraham or god it's ambivalent in the story and they tell abraham

01:25:51.580 that they're gonna that sodom and gomorrah are going to be destroyed in in totality and abraham says

01:25:58.260 that's not fair what if there's good people there and god or the angels say um i don't think there are

01:26:05.120 and abraham says well what if i can go to the city and find 50 and god says you find 50 no problem and

01:26:12.720 abraham who's a stubborn bastard says well what if there's 40 and god says you know you're pushing

01:26:19.120 your luck and i think i think abraham gets him down to 10 yeah and it's a fascinating story because this

01:26:26.500 is what i think it means and this is also why i think your venture is so crucially important and

01:26:31.740 i also think this is relevant on a day on the day after jay batacharya was elected to head the nhs

01:26:38.620 after being an outsider and and and and what would you say cancelled the moral of that story is if

01:26:45.540 there's 10 people in the city that are still willing to tell the truth the city won't be destroyed and i

01:26:50.880 believe that's true because i think the truth is so powerful that if a culture is hasn't become so

01:26:58.220 totalitarian that everyone is silenced there's still hope and i do think there's still hope in

01:27:03.900 the west and the fact that you guys can come here to phoenix right home of the home of rebirth so

01:27:10.180 to speak yeah and you can do your thing you can do what comedians have always done which is to tell

01:27:15.020 the truth and god only knows what the consequence of that will be more than possibly more than you

01:27:20.220 think yes it's possibly there's a reason stand-up comedy is so entertaining and so popular it's

01:27:27.240 possible because it's possible that it's because it's really necessary it's really necessary for you

01:27:32.860 to be allowed to be funny because one of the things that's so cool about comedy is that people don't laugh

01:27:38.300 on purpose right you can't you can pretty much tell when someone laughs falsely and so it's it's

01:27:45.520 actually a form of spontaneous honesty it's pre-conscious yeah so it's a very effective yeah

01:27:51.760 it's very well i saw recently a clip of one of the the i won't name names but one of the very woke

01:27:56.740 comics in the uk in a bbc audience the what you could tell the audience were forcing themselves to

01:28:02.060 laugh because they wanted to show approval for the message that was being moral virtue and i felt like

01:28:07.200 i think it was um maybe leo curse at gb news he was saying that that's the punishment for the woke

01:28:11.480 they have to sit through these things and force themselves to laugh yeah it's that distinction

01:28:15.940 between what they call claptor you know when you see where people are applauding out of approval

01:28:19.480 for what is being said good guys what's much better is that involuntary laugh when you think i really

01:28:24.760 shouldn't have laughed at that well that's the thing it's even better than the best kind of laughter

01:28:29.980 is when you're ashamed of yourself or for saying it's like oh my god i can't believe i said that but

01:28:36.800 it was like necessary and but also funny it's an escape valve you know and we've known we there's

01:28:41.380 been i've never seen riots in dublin until last year you know i think it was last year they happened

01:28:45.540 it wasn't earlier this year yeah yeah i've never seen riots until i grew up in dublin i've never seen

01:28:50.180 a riot in dublin you know montreal too by the way really yeah horrible god yes and i'm not saying i'm

01:28:56.120 not making any great claims for comedy but one of the things that it does do is that it lets a little

01:29:00.820 bit of steam out when everyone notices the same thing at the same time right yeah and maybe people

01:29:06.240 aren't talking about it elsewhere uh so comedy and satire is a great place to let this steam out

01:29:11.720 but we have a show called have i got news for you in the uk and if if it was if it's supposed to be

01:29:18.000 collect the news of the the recent week and you could watch it and not have a clue that any of

01:29:25.660 the stuff we spoke about today is going on yeah you know because they deliberately avoid anything

01:29:31.280 that will get them complaints and as a result it's like completely toothless as a as a satirical show

01:29:36.860 we need things that make people that that just make people feel a bit sane that's what my we tried

01:29:42.720 to do with my youtube about the gender issue yeah just wanted to make people yeah you have noticed

01:29:47.120 that people are yeah right right you know well that's the re-establishment of a consensus of truth

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01:30:08.240 it's much harder to make 10 people laugh in a crowd if there's only 10 then thousand yeah right and

01:30:17.600 so there's something about the anonymity of a crowd but there's also something about the fact

01:30:22.940 that when everyone laughs together it's the establishment of a new consensus of the previously

01:30:29.200 unspoken based on the self-evident truth because everyone wouldn't be laughing if it wasn't true

01:30:34.500 right it has to and if that wasn't a true response and it's also sudden and uncontrollable yeah you know

01:30:41.400 there's another weird thing about laughter i used to do this as a joke with a couple of my friends

01:30:45.720 when we're lifting weights in the gym because if you make someone laugh when they're in the middle

01:30:49.860 of a bench press that they'll drop the weight you'll kill them well you lose all your muscular

01:30:54.960 control when you laugh yeah which is also extremely interesting because it it means that

01:30:59.880 in the moment of laughter you render yourself defenseless and vulnerable which is also extremely

01:31:05.880 interesting right especially because it's also intensely pleasurable yes exactly it's a very weird

01:31:11.700 but don't you find it depressing though that so many comedians you call them regime comedians

01:31:15.340 but comedians in the uk don't recognize that this is a problem they don't think it is a problem

01:31:19.120 because their opinions are the orthodox opinions but also i mean we had we did a stand-up gig in

01:31:23.180 dublin what four months ago or something which was cancelled on us yeah um activists phoned up the

01:31:28.340 it was graham and i were both performing that night a couple of other comics it was part of my comedy

01:31:32.240 unleash thing right and um they they activists phoned up the venue and they said okay we won't put it on

01:31:37.500 then they're too scared yeah and then we found another venue at the last minute and it was fine

01:31:42.000 but how can you talk to how can any comic today say that that well you answer is a situation that

01:31:47.520 you answered that question earlier it provides an avenue to success for absolutely mediocre people

01:31:52.960 right right and then they can say they can say two things i'm just as funny as graham linehan for

01:31:58.260 example plus i'm definitely morally superior or and that's a big that's a or do they think huge

01:32:03.740 or do they or do they genuinely think that we are spreading hate through the medium of humor do they

01:32:10.080 believe that count dankler was trying to recruit people to neo-nazism through the medium of pugs

01:32:14.740 well look it's calm well that's the thing i did it's calm he did think that you see i know i know

01:32:19.380 i know it's a little bit of column a and a little bit of column right you never want to underestimate

01:32:24.060 the the what would you say the attractiveness of unearned moral virtue like in the gospel accounts

01:32:29.820 for example the people who end up crucifying christ are the pharisees right it's pharisees

01:32:35.760 that's religious hypocrites those are the people who are claiming to be good when they're not it's

01:32:41.820 the scribes those are the academics right who use truth in the service of their own self-interest

01:32:48.220 and the lawyers and they're the ones who use legalism as an alternative to morality that proclivity

01:32:54.360 has been around forever yes the temptation i see one of the commandments is do not use the name of

01:33:00.980 god in vain and everyone thinks that means don't swear that isn't what it means it means don't claim

01:33:07.480 to be doing the work of the divine when you're pursuing your own self-interest right and it's

01:33:12.540 really necessary to understand that that's a temptation you know so for example when i said

01:33:18.340 just get the damn vaccine now was i being good or was i signaling a kind of moral virtue and i would say

01:33:26.220 i think i wasn't being good at all in that situation i think i was signaling a form of moral

01:33:31.240 virtue it's like come on all the sensible people are like me are going to do this and you can tell

01:33:36.720 that in consequence of the fact that i've already done it you know like i said i can plead illness at

01:33:42.540 the time but that's still but that but but but there's also the apparatus that i was talking about

01:33:48.420 earlier yeah you you just take it as a normal thing that you would you would issue a statement on it

01:33:53.980 and we all do you i i remember that in the before times on twitter if everyone's talking about

01:33:59.600 something you sit there thinking oh i better come up with a joke yeah you know who cares if you talk

01:34:04.660 or not i don't i don't really like knowing you know the way in in the old days you'd watch a show

01:34:10.620 like the monkeys like i used to love the monkeys the the uh the tv show they had you know and then

01:34:17.580 you'd you'd wonder about these people and you'd hear from them every so often for the rest of your

01:34:20.980 life just in little spots than when they died but now they are telling you their political opinions

01:34:26.420 which you don't want to know which you either don't want to know or or maybe you think you want

01:34:30.800 to know and you actually don't well still they're not necessarily their opinions that the opinions

01:34:34.300 they feel they have to transmit my point is they're also no more interesting than anyone else's

01:34:39.120 opinions absolutely you know i went and saw john cleese who like i love john cleese he he he was like a

01:34:44.620 savior to me in my adolescence all of my friends were john cleese freaks you know and he's so funny

01:34:50.420 and i went and saw his live show five years ago and he talked about making life of brian and and

01:34:56.440 about well all the great movies they made and that was so interesting and then he talked about trump

01:35:01.420 which was like not interesting it was like listening to your neighbor talk about trump and

01:35:06.640 it's it's it's well i suppose that's another one of the cataclysmic problems of this interconnectedness

01:35:15.740 is that why i mean i don't i don't have a thing is that we're all on a stage now you know as soon

01:35:20.860 as you have a twitter account or facebook or whatever you step onto a stage yeah you know and

01:35:25.280 i think that always being always already being audience facing is perhaps not the best thing for

01:35:31.300 us yeah definitely you know well can you imagine having that problem when you're a teenager yes and

01:35:36.020 having that i would say the rest of your life how many lives have been jesus but i would say that i don't

01:35:40.160 think there's anything inherently wrong with the celebrity expressing an opinion

01:35:42.880 and i think there's a distinction to be drawn i mean i've spoken with john please about his he has

01:35:49.320 sincerely held uh convictions that he's entitled to express and that i but i i think that is very

01:35:54.600 different from for instance to give an example an actor friend of mine during the black lives matter

01:35:59.260 riots was contacted by her agent saying um you haven't put up a black square in support of black

01:36:05.440 lives matter if if you don't do that you'll i won't be able to find work for you that's not going

01:36:09.440 to happen right so therefore you have yes you have someone in the arts industry now feeling they have

01:36:14.060 to trans uh convey an opinion that they don't sincerely hold otherwise their livelihood will

01:36:19.040 be taken away from them now i think that's i think that's the risk is is is you know the problem here

01:36:25.180 might be and i've certainly had this problem on twitter it's like twitter is like talking to your

01:36:31.720 friends when or your roommates in college except that it's not because it goes out to millions of

01:36:38.420 people so it's like it's like seriously not that even though it feels like that and so you know

01:36:44.900 maybe one of the rules with x for example or social media general is if you play with fire you're going

01:36:51.600 to be burned and you're playing with fire whether the match is hot or not on social media you know my son

01:36:57.480 has told me he said dad you have to remember when you're on x that you're actually publishing right

01:37:02.920 and it's certainly the case that i spend a lot less time on any given tweet than i would on any

01:37:07.460 sentence that's in one of my books well that's that i i'm often catching myself in that if i get into

01:37:13.360 a twitter spat an argument which i do more than i should yeah sometimes i think i catch myself and i think

01:37:19.920 am i trying to be seen to win right more than getting to the truth of the point right and that's

01:37:26.820 well anger will certainly anger will certainly motivate that and that's when i tend to withdraw

01:37:31.320 from it if i think it's i i'm messing up now i'm i'm i'm trying to humiliate it's a power game now

01:37:36.640 right and i don't like that about myself i'm sure everyone has it oh but but i think being aware of

01:37:42.180 the performative element of social media it's just not hard to be aware of it though it is just have

01:37:47.780 to go click and away you go you know it's just not the forum lag it's not the forum for discussion it

01:37:52.900 just isn't something about it rewards extremism it's well it rewards impulsive behavior it does

01:37:57.980 right it's it's set up to incentivize impulsive behavior yes we have no idea like impulsive

01:38:03.260 behavior is a bad medium to long-term strategy yeah and that's the sine qua non of twitter and so it

01:38:08.940 just might be a game that degenerates as you play it i'm kind of confused by elon's decision to put in

01:38:15.580 the for you tab which seems like a surefire way to create kind of discord and arguments i just don't

01:38:21.960 look at that tab i look at the things that i'm following yeah i also don't look at it it's

01:38:25.740 because it's too pathological yeah like it just aggregates bad actors well they're trying to no one

01:38:32.140 knows what to do with twitter like and they're so i have to ask you another question because my

01:38:38.080 daughter won't forgive me if i don't okay and there are other reasons too you taught a course for

01:38:42.980 peterson academy i did we live in a time when many of us think that human progress is inevitable when it

01:38:50.240 comes to the arts this is a kind of wishful thinking it's the psychological complexity of

01:38:56.620 his characters and his insights into human nature not the plots he wasn't interested in plot

01:39:01.940 macbeth hamlet othello king lear judas caesar anthony and cleopatra romeo and judyette this is a girl

01:39:11.440 on a balcony a lover below could you change a single syllable and improve it it's not possible

01:39:17.220 we can read shakespeare i don't care who you are these are plays about human beings this is why

01:39:22.100 they've never stopped being relevant he broadens our sense of what it means to be human people found

01:39:26.840 it very uncomfortable because it doesn't have poetic justice his characters iago cleopatra titus

01:39:32.040 cordelia brutus they all think differently i do think that shakespeare has the capacity

01:39:38.140 to illuminate our modern world as solzhenitsyn said the line between good and evil cuts through

01:39:43.480 the heart of every human being i like the fact that shakespeare absolutely doesn't attempt to

01:39:48.100 preach at you it's incumbent on us to have a familiarity with uh well the greatest writer who

01:39:54.560 ever lived tell us about the course so the course is on shakespeare's tragedies uh and we filmed it uh in

01:40:08.120 london uh was it last year i think yes my sense of time is completely gone um and it was excellent uh

01:40:14.680 and i'm not saying that just to be a sycophant but the the whole premise i'm so 100 behind which is

01:40:21.020 that i was told you can teach this course and in whatever way you want you can focus on the things

01:40:25.700 you want which i think is the the way to get the best out of uh people who want to teach well we only

01:40:30.760 invite for we only invite people to participate who we want to hear from right and so one of this is

01:40:35.920 something i definitely learned in academia it's like once you have the right person yes leave them

01:40:41.700 the hell exactly that and if they're not the right person then fire them right what's what's great about

01:40:48.000 it as well because that's that's my background that was you know that was my my doc my doctoral degree

01:40:53.180 was in shakespeare i used to teach shakespeare at oxford university uh part-time while i was completing

01:40:59.560 the doctorate it's everything and i've obviously i've retained the love of shakespeare and i continually read

01:41:05.080 him all the time um so it's it's it's i tell you what it is it's i've been dragged into this cultural

01:41:11.880 stuff by virtue of my creative work comedy playwriting etc you because you have to address this as a

01:41:19.740 creative if there's such an obstacle such an impediment you have a kind of duty to to address

01:41:24.820 it yeah right but what political is an obstacle to your creativity right you can't ignore it but it

01:41:30.220 then becomes a an obstacle to other enthusiasms in your life right and for me shakespeare lasting

01:41:37.360 enthusiasms hopefully and actually i think the um the the study of the likes of shakespeare who

01:41:44.100 who the activists are trying to problematize you know the globe theater in london which is supposed

01:41:49.520 to be the custodian of his work has a an annual anti-racist shakespeare webinar where sort of anti-racist

01:41:56.260 experts gather to berate shakespeare for his problematic elements and and you think i'm

01:42:01.480 morally superior to shakespeare i'm better than shakespeare right and i think one of the great

01:42:06.160 things so in the in the course that i did for you for the petition academy i started the first

01:42:10.880 lecture with a question which is why has shakespeare as a playwright never been bettered how can that be

01:42:16.280 the case you know this is he he began in in the late 1580s the public theaters had only been around

01:42:22.640 for about a decade this is a new thing this is a new medium how is it that a man right at the start

01:42:27.940 of this new thing isn't ever bettered for four centuries how does that happen and i hope by going

01:42:33.080 through it we sort of get to some kind of answer but i think it's that prioritization of genius which

01:42:38.780 has now become suspect within the academy you know the idea that he's his work can be reduced to the

01:42:44.520 idea of just a white male um uh effectively trying to empower other white men through his work that's how

01:42:51.300 they see art that's how they see creativity as just a kind of conduit imagine a temptation more

01:42:56.820 profound than the one that would allow you to be morally superior to the great geniuses of history

01:43:01.560 just because you hold the the the same cost-free political opinions exactly i mean that is a good

01:43:07.740 deal i can barely tolerate going to museums now because you have a masterpiece and then an explanation

01:43:14.520 by someone whose text is how they're morally superior to this person who's so outstanding that

01:43:20.600 there was a an exhibition of hogarth in london where they there was a self-portrait and because

01:43:26.000 he was sitting on a chair which made a wood the panel explained that the wood had probably come from

01:43:30.100 a from a plantation and it's connected to slavery and therefore we need to judge hogarth i also i and

01:43:35.620 and i think so i think these little lectures that you get it's so of this it says so much about

01:43:41.560 our time but nothing about the art yes and nothing about the transcendent capacity of art and and i that's

01:43:48.460 why i'm very careful now so rooted to the year it is absolutely yeah yeah and whenever i see i'm i

01:43:54.780 research it very carefully now if i go and see a production of shakespeare because nine times out

01:43:59.540 of ten it will be uh a mangling of shakespeare to promote the ideology and by the way i don't think

01:44:05.460 that's a problem if you want to people do all sorts of things with shakespeare yes and that's fine

01:44:09.940 they're free to do that and i don't care if you want to turn it into a pro-marxist thing or a

01:44:14.340 pro because whatever you want to do with it queer shakespeare or quick but everyone's doing the same

01:44:18.400 thing you want you want when it's mandatory it's something completely different yes even more

01:44:23.300 confusing yeah well they are anyway that's what i mean that happens of course is that as soon as

01:44:29.080 the theatrical presentation becomes woke no one watches it yes and then all the activists say well

01:44:36.620 obviously shakespeare is passé because no one's paying any attention to him anymore but why is it that

01:44:42.340 all in our current culture i think all art at the moment is as you say mandatory in terms of it must

01:44:48.880 be conveying the message it feels like state sanctioned art propaganda rather than art and

01:44:54.940 that's the only way you're going to get commissioned that's the only way you're going to get a play on

01:44:58.140 well no in the uk i mean oh it's increasingly the case in classical music and everywhere in the arts

01:45:04.200 and theatrical productions all across the united states i think 50 percent of the theaters now in the

01:45:09.560 united states are are um the the prophecy is that they'll go broke within the next two years

01:45:15.100 and it's part it's it's like the problem with propaganda is no one wants to watch it so graham

01:45:21.060 if you if you were working if they were letting you work today all of your scripts would be passed

01:45:24.920 by a sensitivity reader in advance you would be told which bits you have to take out yeah you know

01:45:28.960 even the poet clanchy who's you know on the left and you know etc she wrote this piece about

01:45:34.220 sensitivity readers her experience she'd written a and i will do it not do it justice but she as a

01:45:39.420 poet had used the word disfigurement relating to the landscape relating to this she was doing

01:45:44.300 something poetic right right and the sensitivity reader said that's an ablest slur so all they can

01:45:49.780 see when they read these texts is how does this either promote or oppress people on the basis of

01:45:55.540 identity groups oh and that's not art i met a guy who was writing a biography of a i can't say who it

01:46:01.700 is because it'll get him into trouble but a very famous figure in the 50s and he i i believe he had

01:46:08.640 a heart attack from dealing with uh sensitivity readers because the two because the correspondence

01:46:14.060 that he another dead another dead white man yeah was he old hopefully another evil yeah but all the

01:46:21.640 all the stuff all the uh the information that he'd unearthed the letters you know they were all using

01:46:26.740 you know the f word for gay men or the you know n word and stuff like this but this is the past

01:46:33.600 it is the truth what's that story you tell in your book about tom stoppard oh yeah it was so funny but

01:46:40.220 tom stopp i this was when sonia friedman who was going to produce the ted musical which by the way we

01:46:45.920 have we have exactly the same kind of problems with theater in the uk in terms of funding and the ted

01:46:50.340 musical would have kept people employed for years you know um so it's just an outrageous act of

01:46:56.300 censorship that they've destroyed it you know um but tom stoppard was it was i i was very flattered

01:47:02.960 because i was following a meeting she had with tom stoppard and she said oh he's complaining because

01:47:08.020 he did you know he doesn't think there should be black people in the warsaw ghetto you know and uh and

01:47:13.960 she said but he's having them whether he likes it or not you know and i thought well would you have

01:47:18.780 jewish people in a play about the uh you know the bronx you know like what are what are the rules

01:47:26.080 here is diversity only one way is it just visual diversity you know what i mean but it's extremely

01:47:31.980 there's a diverse range of diversities unfortunately yeah but you know you were talking about monty

01:47:37.100 python but terry gilliam because the old vic theater is now run by the people who sell its ice

01:47:42.720 screams uh had to take uh steven sondheim musical out to bath to get it on because cleese also had

01:47:50.460 trouble with part of the life of brian because there's a character in it i think it's a chaplain

01:47:55.360 loretta yeah loretta right yeah which is a very funny part of the movie which is also a very very

01:48:00.400 funny movie but yeah he decides that he's a man or a woman right i think he said that that was

01:48:04.800 overblower that was a headline well not what what happened oh no oh you know well i've spoken to him

01:48:09.200 about it oh me too and i know that they had trouble with that when they were bringing the play on stage

01:48:14.620 it was the actors they did a read so john has done a stage version of life of brian yes he's written a

01:48:20.120 stage version and in the reading i think it was in new york the actors then said you have to take out

01:48:25.120 the bit where the man says he wants to be a woman right where he wants to be called loretta and he

01:48:29.180 wants to have babies and they say but and john's character says but you can't have babies and they say

01:48:33.200 no but we want to fight for his right to be able to have babies exactly and it's so prescient

01:48:37.040 it's perfect it's so perfect but but he he said he won't take the scene no that's right he wouldn't

01:48:41.800 do that which is fantastic yeah absolutely but but but that eric eidel bet the need oh oh did he i

01:48:47.580 think so yeah it's it's it's so sad that the but i wonder about this and it's a broader question is

01:48:52.140 is it possible for artistic genius to even emerge within the conditions that we are currently creating

01:48:59.100 well how much artistic genius emerged in the soviet union well that's the point isn't it yeah well none

01:49:05.620 that's pushing it but virtually none so um there's a great book by victor hugo about artistic

01:49:10.860 genius and he he he estimates that about three or four major artistic geniuses emerge in every

01:49:16.780 generation that's his view about this he says that this is how does he describe it he says this is god

01:49:21.740 distributing himself on earth he says every masterpiece is a kind of miracle it's a really

01:49:26.260 beautiful idea um but what i think hugo and he's probably right he's talking about the big one

01:49:30.420 like iskynos and homer and dante and shakespeare and i think he's right about me i'm i'm sorry about

01:49:37.240 that uh but you will reach homer's heights at some point but but no but i think he's talking about

01:49:42.060 these he's saying that that this will inevitably happen within humankind three or four a generation

01:49:47.740 you'll get a mozart you'll get a whatever but that won't i think hugo takes for granted yes that we

01:49:54.280 live in a culture that values the arts and doesn't value this doesn't punish it quite yeah so i don't

01:50:01.180 think within the grip of this movement within with the arts so captured by this movement those people

01:50:08.880 cannot emerge because the conditions are simply not there they're probably there there probably are

01:50:14.120 those i would say though at around the time of hugo there would have been just as many impediments to

01:50:19.200 creating art right you know but so yeah that's the question so how is it that under the oppression

01:50:25.120 oppression of medieval christendom great artists still emerge through it what does michelangelo do

01:50:30.960 with the sistine chapel he's given narrow parameters in terms of what he can represent but he finds a way

01:50:37.000 to to well as a manifestation of god on earth so to speak it's very hard to stop you know i collected

01:50:44.900 russian realist art from the 20th century a lot of it like i have like 500 pieces of it and i looked

01:50:51.940 at tens of thousands of paintings from the soviet union yes a lot of it rush rough impressionism it

01:50:58.160 wasn't exactly realism and many of the pieces i got are spectacular from an artistic and technical

01:51:05.540 perspective even though to some degree they're subordinated to propaganda but what was really cool

01:51:10.980 about having the pieces around is that as we recede from the propagandistic milieu of the work

01:51:18.720 the art shines through yes and in a hundred years these will just be pieces of art there'll be no

01:51:23.460 propaganda left so that's that's so interesting yeah the way that true creative genius finds a way

01:51:28.900 through the impediments yes it's like a flower in a pavement stone yeah but i love that i like so for

01:51:35.540 instance with shakespeare you know he can't write produce his narrative poems venus and adonis or

01:51:41.280 rapier lucris without patronage so each poem is preceded by this effusive uh the praise of henry

01:51:47.760 ruthley his patron which you could say well that's dispensable but the beauty then comes through in the

01:51:52.400 in the poem in of itself well you could argue as well that like cinema is a very interesting one because

01:51:57.500 cinema is such a strange marriage of art and economics you know yes and it's like but still we have

01:52:02.820 these classic films that broke well the other we we should probably stop with this and yes sorry

01:52:08.020 i know i'm very happy about it i mean one of the things and this is very much worth considering no

01:52:13.520 doubt you gentlemen have already considered it but you know the way that you circumvent the

01:52:18.000 propagandists isn't by explicit political statement you do it by story yes yes tell a great story and a

01:52:24.580 great if a story is great it isn't subservient to propaganda because that would destroy the

01:52:29.960 greatness and there isn't anything that's more destructive to propagandistic totalitarianism

01:52:35.480 than greatness yes so this is why i'm so excited partly why i wanted to invite you on the show too

01:52:40.400 i'm so excited that you've come to phoenix and that you're starting this new enterprise and that you found

01:52:45.140 each other because god only knows what you could accomplish and who knows what the consequence of

01:52:50.020 actually producing some things that are genuinely funny might be again it's not like there's not a market

01:52:54.700 for it i mean rogan's comedy club in austin is just thriving and he's fostering a whole new

01:52:59.920 generation of comedians who will say anything yeah as long as it's funny you know and they don't allow

01:53:06.800 cell phones in the crowd you can't record any of it yeah and so people go and it's such a fun place to

01:53:12.160 go because everyone knows that there's trouble afoot and that all sorts of things that can't be said

01:53:18.820 will definitely be said isn't it quite an exciting it's quite an exciting time all of this oppressive

01:53:25.140 woke stuff actually could produce something amazing well if there's one thing we do as as as a species

01:53:32.000 it's overcorrection so i quite like the idea of a comic overcorrection yeah yeah well maybe that's what

01:53:37.460 i think that's happening already because there's so many things that are happening even within the

01:53:41.900 trump administration that are comic overcorrections right it's like really they appointed him that's the

01:53:48.400 maximally possible that's the maximally comical possible outcome right yes so all right gentlemen

01:53:54.560 we should probably stop on this side so thank you very much for coming in to talk to me i mean i'm

01:53:59.920 we'll we'll meet again i suspect on the podcast especially once you guys get up and rolling

01:54:05.580 because uh everyone's going to want to know just exactly what the hell oh yeah what we've done they

01:54:10.580 have all sorts of plans which we didn't discuss today because it's a little bit premature to

01:54:15.420 announce them but those announcements will be coming soon thank you to everybody watching and

01:54:20.220 listening on the youtube side and to the scottsdale crew here for making this possible and and also for

01:54:25.140 putting this together on relatively short order because we decided to do this podcast what yesterday

01:54:30.720 yeah the three of us anyways and so that worked out extremely well and we're going to continue on the

01:54:35.960 daily wire side i think probably what we'll do there is delve a little bit more

01:54:39.900 into the ugly underbelly of totalitarian woke wokeness especially i think especially

01:54:47.700 in the uk and in europe because a correction has obviously already occurred in the united states and

01:54:54.520 god willing that will actually have some teeth and we'll see what happens and in canada trudeau's

01:55:00.200 numb days are absolutely numbered there isn't a chance that he's going to survive beyond next october now

01:55:06.400 he'll be able to do a lot of damage in the intervening year but he's pretty much done but europe is in

01:55:11.400 rough shape and the uk they're in rough shape and so i think we'll turn our attention on the daily

01:55:16.220 wire side to a discussion of that situation and also what might be done about it that would be

01:55:21.560 practical and useful so join us for that

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506. Europe Imploding ｜ Andrew Doyle & Graham Linehan

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