The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 508. Anti-Semitism and the Fall of Trudeau's Canada ｜ Terry Glavin

00:00:00.000 Hey, everybody. I had a chance today to sit down and speak in person with Terry Glavin,

00:00:19.680 who's one of Canada's premier journalists. And I've been following his work for quite a long

00:00:25.940 time, as has many Canadians. But there was a particular reason for talking to him now,

00:00:31.120 and that was that he penned a piece for Barry Weiss and the Free Press. I've had dealings with

00:00:37.240 Barry, complex dealings with Barry for quite a long time. And I read Terry's piece on the rise

00:00:43.840 of anti-Semitism and all of the associated, what would you say, pathological, political,

00:00:50.900 and quasi-political movements that accompany, by necessity, a rise in anti-Semitism. He

00:00:56.340 detailed that out quite extensively in this Free Press article, which is notable not only for its

00:01:02.020 description of a relatively radically transformed Canada on the social front, on the political

00:01:09.740 front, the ethical front, but also because Terry was pointing to a phenomenon, the rise of anti-Semitism

00:01:17.840 in the West in general, after the atrocities of October 7th. And so not only is it a detailed

00:01:25.780 analysis of something particular that's happening in a particular place and country, Canada, it's also a

00:01:32.680 broader description of a movement that threatens the integrity of the West in a fundamental way,

00:01:39.360 much more broadly. And so I was very interested in the article. And when I read it, I thought I should

00:01:45.900 really talk to Terry and maybe to Barry on my podcast. And four hours later, Barry Weiss wrote

00:01:52.000 to me and said, you should talk to Terry Glavin about his recent article. And I thought, well,

00:01:57.420 she thinks so too. And so, well, so we did that. And Terry probably made me more pessimistic about

00:02:04.760 Canada's future than I was, which is really saying something, because after nine years of the

00:02:10.660 unmitigated catastrophic disaster of the Trudeau administration, I was already plenty pessimistic,

00:02:16.700 but he detailed out, for example, the pernicious effect of the Chinese Communist Party on the

00:02:22.880 political situation federally in Canada. And I was less cognizant of the depth of that than I was after

00:02:28.960 the podcast. So you can listen and weep if you're Canadian. But, you know, again, that is also something

00:02:35.380 with international implications, because it's not as if the Chinese are only producing their

00:02:41.160 machinations to the detriment of the West in Canada. It's a threat to the West in general. And 0.89

00:02:47.500 so Canada is a strange canary in the coal mine. We talked about, well, the pro-Hamas protesters in

00:02:54.320 Canada, the absolute devastation of Canadian universities, the terror that Canadian Jews are 1.00

00:03:01.360 feeling, tiny minority of Canada's population, much smaller, by the way, than the Muslim population,

00:03:07.100 which is relevant in this instance, given what's happened in Palestine. We talked about, well,

00:03:13.300 our sorrow as older Canadians to see our country descend into this kind of 1930s-like

00:03:20.520 Kristallnacht demonstrating that characterized Toronto and Montreal and Vancouver and Calgary and

00:03:28.500 things we never saw, never thought would happen in Canada, and the threats to Canada's integrity

00:03:35.440 economically, politically, and ethically in general. Terry's Substack is available at The Real

00:03:42.460 Story on the Substack site. And that's something that should be of substantial interest, well, not only

00:03:47.320 to Canadians, but to people in general. So check that out. And, well, welcome to a relatively

00:03:55.040 dismal discussion of the situation in Canada and, by implication, the rest of the West.

00:04:02.240 Well, as you know, I reached out to you for a variety of reasons, but the most compelling,

00:04:07.540 I would say, and immediate, was the article that you just wrote in the Free Press, which is,

00:04:12.080 I would say, a rather damning screed, all things considered. And I'm very interested in that particular

00:04:17.300 issue. And I'm very much looking forward to discussing that with you and the sorry state of Canada in

00:04:23.280 general. So maybe you could start by just outlining, well, how, what, what, what article I'm referring

00:04:30.720 to and why you wrote it, and then let's go into the content of the article. Well, it is essentially

00:04:36.880 an investigation of the state of anti-Semitism in Canada. And I spent quite a bit of time and effort

00:04:44.580 on this, 16 in-depth interviews, maybe another 16 not so in-depth interviews, a lot of research,

00:04:52.800 a lot of time and trouble trying to get this sorted. And I think part of Barry's motivation

00:05:01.100 was that she was sort of vaguely, dimly aware that something very, very unseemly was occurring in

00:05:07.120 Canada. And we, she and I knew one another, we were kind of chummy. And I've covered, I've been

00:05:15.560 sort of interested and concerned about anti-Semitism for about 20, 25 years now, actually, for reasons

00:05:22.080 we might discuss. And so she said, well, it looks like Glavin's the guy to do this story. So I did

00:05:28.700 this story. And it's about 6,700 words long. It's a very deep investigation. And it has attracted

00:05:36.740 a heck of a lot of attention. Unfortunately, it doesn't make Canada look very good. I wrote this

00:05:42.540 primarily for an American audience. I've found Americans, God bless them, they haven't the faintest

00:05:48.040 idea what's happening in Canada. They have an idea of Canada embedded in their brains, and it's really

00:05:54.120 hard to shake them from it. Canada is not the place that you will find in Michael Moore documentaries.

00:06:00.560 Canada is not the place that you'll find in any aspect of American media, actually, particularly

00:06:08.640 over the last 10 years. It's changed.

00:06:12.520 Hmm. Funny coincidence, that. That wouldn't happen to line up with Trudeau's...

00:06:16.500 Strange how that works, isn't it?

00:06:17.880 Yeah, yeah.

00:06:18.460 Yeah, yeah.

00:06:19.320 Trudeau's reign.

00:06:20.720 And it is...

00:06:21.960 Economic catastrophe.

00:06:22.640 Yeah. What is particularly concerning is that Canadian Jews are almost universally 1.00

00:06:34.020 disconsolate, dejected, afraid, alienated, isolated, and they feel very strongly, in the

00:06:45.480 main, that their government is not protecting them. That this...

00:06:51.720 That's because their government isn't protecting them.

00:06:54.600 Yeah, they might be onto something there.

00:06:56.340 They might be, all right.

00:06:58.440 And I think, I mean, for people to understand this phenomenon, this thing that kind of burst

00:07:06.500 into the consciousness of most Canadians on the 8th of October, immediately after the Simchat Torah

00:07:14.880 pogrom, the atrocities undertaken by Hamas in southern Israel at the Supernova Music Festival

00:07:25.580 in the Kibbutzim around the Gaza envelope, immediately afterwards, the event was celebrated.

00:07:34.320 Actually celebrated.

00:07:37.140 And Hamas was praised, and this was characterized as a great act of heroic resistance against

00:07:44.420 the illegitimate colonial settler state of Israel.

00:07:48.560 And we saw this from one end of the country to the other, city after city, day after day, week after week.

00:07:59.180 And what we have seen in the year and a bit since that day, a 670% increase in anti-Semitic incidents.

00:08:10.460 Give or take, it depends on how you add it up.

00:08:12.820 I mean, a lot of Jews don't even bother to call the cops anymore. 1.00

00:08:17.400 There's no point. 0.98

00:08:19.780 We've seen drive-by shootings at Jewish schools.

00:08:23.680 We've seen synagogues firebombed.

00:08:26.100 We've seen one synagogue in Toronto has been attacked half a dozen times in a few weeks.

00:08:33.140 We've seen Jewish businesses smashed, their windows smashed.

00:08:36.540 Jewish neighborhoods, you know, throngs of anti-Zionist protesters in their neighborhoods.

00:08:47.080 Anti-Zionist.

00:08:47.820 Yeah, it's, there is my own, I've come to the conclusion that there's very little distinction

00:08:56.660 that you can draw between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism.

00:09:00.140 People will have all kinds of complaints about Israel.

00:09:02.600 God bless them.

00:09:03.240 The Israelis do all kinds of complaints about their own government.

00:09:07.920 And I think also it is complicated by, since October 7th, the very real deep anguish and

00:09:17.900 suffering that is being endured by the people of Gaza.

00:09:22.500 I think it's very, very, very important to notice this and to be able to talk about it.

00:09:27.480 And one of the things that was really difficult for me to get at in my piece is that that's

00:09:32.800 almost an impossible conversation for ordinary, decent people to have.

00:09:36.440 Because as soon as you begin to discuss various policy prescriptions that might be useful in

00:09:43.560 getting aid and comfort to the suffering of the people of Gaza, it is, the conversation is

00:09:49.660 immediately taken over by a vast constituency of opinion that uses the suffering of Palestinians,

00:09:59.600 sometimes imagined, but quite often real, to weaponize, weaponizing that suffering to the

00:10:08.460 purpose of a deep and fanatical ideological commitment to the destruction of the state of Israel and to

00:10:17.740 driving the Jews into the sea. 0.97

00:10:20.560 So, you know, whether you're a Jew or a Gentile, it's that that conversation is almost impossible 0.95

00:10:25.600 to have.

00:10:27.840 And, yeah, I think, you know, most people associate anti-Semitism, I think, with, you know, sort of

00:10:39.020 skinheads, people who understand their lineage, you know, from the Nazis or whatever.

00:10:48.140 That has not been a phenomenon in Canada for a long, long, long time.

00:10:51.620 And there is something that has taken its place.

00:10:57.480 Far and away, anti-Semitism in Canada is what you might call a left-wing phenomenon.

00:11:06.520 Yeah, I want to read something from your article, Kay, that's directly relevant to that.

00:11:11.800 It's from a section called It Was Like a Dam Burst.

00:11:14.200 And so this is right after October 7th.

00:11:16.480 And these are comments by Robert Krell, who's the former director of postgraduate education in the

00:11:21.840 Department of Psychiatry at the University of British Columbia.

00:11:24.560 The impression that the violence unfolding around them is somehow invisible to the state

00:11:30.260 responsible for their protection has overwhelmed not only relative newcomers to Canada, like

00:11:34.780 Rugeheimer, man, you discussed, but also Jews who have lived in Canada for decades.

00:11:39.320 Then you refer to Robert Krell.

00:11:41.300 And the next section is almost none of these verbal or physical assaults.

00:11:46.780 Okay, so we're talking about repeated demonstrations, for example, all across the country.

00:11:51.080 Long-term occupations of university campuses, most particularly at McGill and at the University

00:11:57.240 of Toronto, with like sporadic outbursts at Concordia, which is its own kind of rat hole.

00:12:02.560 And then in a variety of other places across Canada, right?

00:12:05.520 Riots in Montreal as well.

00:12:07.340 Downtown demonstrations in Toronto.

00:12:09.740 Almost none of these verbal or physical assaults are coming from white supremacists, very

00:12:14.240 rare breed in Canada, or anti-Semites of the right-wing variety. 0.59

00:12:17.960 Now, those people exist.

00:12:19.220 I mean, when I joined forces with the Daily Wire, one of whose lead spokespeople, let's

00:12:26.440 say, is Ben Shapiro, who's probably the most well-known Orthodox Jew, American Orthodox Jew

00:12:31.480 in the world, the right-wing anti-Semites came after me in droves.

00:12:35.640 And they had been doing that for years for a variety of reasons.

00:12:38.140 So those people exist.

00:12:39.260 And they're entirely detestable in 15 different dimensions. 0.57

00:12:42.420 But they're not organized in the same manner as these left-wing anti-Semites.

00:12:46.880 And they don't pose anywhere near the danger.

00:12:49.080 And, well, this is what you describe in your article.

00:12:52.800 They are being carried out by self-described progressives, Arabs, and often recent immigrants

00:12:58.560 who are operating inside an ideological framework of settler colonialism, which casts Canada, the

00:13:07.320 U.S., Australia, and most of all Israel as irredeemably illegitimate constructs of imperialism, capitalism, genocide, and racism. 0.74

00:13:18.140 It's an ideology that has found a comfortable home in Trudeau's Canada.

00:13:23.440 Okay, so let's zero in on this a little bit.

00:13:26.400 So I wrote an article about Jewish support for the Democrats about three months ago for a U.K. publication.

00:13:35.480 It was, ha, I tried to publish it at the National Post and at the Telegraph.

00:13:39.700 And they'll usually pretty much take whatever I send them.

00:13:42.080 But they found this one too contentious.

00:13:44.440 That's odd.

00:13:45.700 Yeah, you saw it.

00:13:46.880 No, I say that's odd.

00:13:48.080 Well, there did it appear finally?

00:13:50.380 It appeared in, oh, let's see.

00:13:55.060 I can't remember.

00:13:55.700 Okay.

00:13:56.000 You know, it escapes me momentarily.

00:13:56.880 You know what?

00:13:57.060 After you should send it to me.

00:13:58.300 I'll send it to you.

00:13:59.080 But let me just tell you, it's just, because in the U.S., the support among Jews for the

00:14:06.460 Democrats is very high.

00:14:07.940 Yep.

00:14:08.380 Historically run 75 to 80 percent.

00:14:10.340 Now, you draw some relationships in your article, which I think are very much worth drawing,

00:14:18.300 because, I don't know, maybe this took the Jewish liberal community by surprise.

00:14:23.320 But it's completely unsurprising if you understand the progressive ideological agenda that the

00:14:29.300 Palestinians were cast as victims.

00:14:31.820 And if people are going to play out a victim-victimizer narrative, which is a progressive narrative,

00:14:37.580 the Jews are always going to be cast as victimizers, because they are overrepresented in positions

00:14:44.580 of authority and preeminence, radically so.

00:14:48.360 And now, my interpretation of that is that the competent rise to the top, and there's a

00:14:53.860 variety of reasons for excessive Jewish competence.

00:14:56.280 And it's marked, for example, in the fact that the Jews have produced an overwhelmingly disproportionate 1.00

00:15:04.100 number, let's say, of Nobel laureates.

00:15:05.920 And so it's a culture that produces.

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00:16:16.600 What places tremendous emphasis on intellectual ability, and there's more to it than that.

00:16:22.960 But the alternative hypothesis is that it's a cabal, and it's a cabal that dominates, and

00:16:29.440 it's a worldwide cabal.

00:16:31.260 And if you buy the victimizer-victim narrative, which is key to the progressive agenda, then

00:16:38.000 the Jews are going to be at the top of the list.

00:16:41.080 The whole diversity, equity, and inclusion phenomenon, there's absolutely no room for the 0.59

00:16:47.740 Jews there.

00:16:48.180 Well, if the rule is, if your ethnic group is overrepresented statistically, you're an 0.90

00:16:55.260 oppressor, then that puts the Jews at the top of the oppressor hierarchy. 0.83

00:17:01.400 Okay, so now, one of the things I'm curious about, and I'd like your thoughts about this,

00:17:04.860 is that I don't exactly understand why the Jewish community didn't see this coming.

00:17:10.100 Because this is a logical consequence of that.

00:17:12.200 What do you mean American Jews?

00:17:13.960 Like, well, I'm going to talk about Canadian Jews.

00:17:15.980 Things are a little weird in the United States.

00:17:18.020 And I mean, I think I can understand a lot of the intellectual community, the strata in 0.96

00:17:23.040 the United States, you know, finding Donald Trump vulgar and repugnant.

00:17:26.720 And that's why a lot of Jews, I think, didn't vote for him. 0.93

00:17:29.480 Yeah, well, I think that's true for many people.

00:17:32.120 They didn't vote for Trump.

00:17:33.620 But it's said that the Israelis, interestingly, supported Trump more than a Kamala Harris presidency.

00:17:43.580 You know, they kind of went, oh, yeah, well, you know, I don't like to admit it, but I hope Trump wins.

00:17:48.280 Well, the Democrats didn't exactly cover themselves in glory with regards to their support for Israel

00:17:52.540 after October 7th.

00:17:53.820 Quite so.

00:17:54.400 So, you know, I think the Israelis understand more clearly, because of necessity,

00:17:59.700 which side their bread is buttered on, let's say.

00:18:01.580 But, like, this really is, it's really a pernicious twist, right?

00:18:05.980 Because I do see the victimizer-victim narrative driving this radical increase in left-wing

00:18:13.580 anti-Semitism.

00:18:14.600 And I don't see any way.

00:18:16.320 That's one way of understanding it.

00:18:18.360 I think other people have used the term cultural Marxism, which kind of, you know,

00:18:23.040 it certainly borrows the language of Marxism and borrows the language of the left,

00:18:27.260 but, of course, replaces the proletariat, the working class, is replaced by this kind 0.97

00:18:34.300 of, you know, rainbow coalition.

00:18:37.820 Yeah, various dimensions of oppression.

00:18:39.240 Ethnic, racial, and gender subsets and subgroups.

00:18:45.960 Yes, I think, well, I think those are parallel explanations.

00:18:48.620 But the other thing I think that's important to understand about anti-Semitism, it's not just

00:18:52.100 like any other prejudice.

00:18:53.120 It's not just another bigotry.

00:18:54.660 It's a conspiracy theory.

00:18:55.940 It's always been a conspiracy theory.

00:18:58.740 And I think a lot of people who perhaps were once Marxists or are informed by the intellectual

00:19:10.820 tradition in Marxism can easily get that wrong, can easily imagine that, you know, the powerful

00:19:22.500 hand of the international bourgeoisie has, you know, their names often end in Stein and

00:19:30.140 Burke. 1.00

00:19:31.240 And the next thing you know, you know, it's the Jews are being thrown down wells. 0.75

00:19:36.760 And I think just to understand where we are in Canada, particularly, I think it's really

00:19:43.580 necessary to understand the trajectory of the left over the last 25, 30 years.

00:19:50.260 Well, go back a little further.

00:19:51.940 Yes, and also the fact that when you describe the trajectory of the left, you're also now

00:19:56.520 describing the trajectory of the federal liberals, which wouldn't have necessarily been the...

00:20:00.320 Kind of, kind of.

00:20:01.440 For the last 10 years?

00:20:03.220 Well, let me...

00:20:04.000 Here, here's how it goes.

00:20:04.980 Okay, lay it out.

00:20:07.620 With the collapse of the Soviet Union, right?

00:20:10.140 Much of the democratic left was perfectly content with this, was very happy about this.

00:20:19.640 With the collapse?

00:20:20.680 Yes.

00:20:21.000 Yes.

00:20:22.260 Much of the democratic left was, or at least resigned to it and confused by it.

00:20:28.340 And then during the 1990s, the primary iteration of left-wing activism and politics was anti-globalization,

00:20:37.020 showing up with these massive demonstrations at the IMF and the World Bank and the World Economic Forum.

00:20:43.320 And then came 9-1-1.

00:20:45.480 And 9-1-1 was kind of like a blunt trauma wound to everybody's head.

00:20:48.980 Everybody went a little bit weird.

00:20:50.500 It was such a shock.

00:20:52.180 I mean, it was like out of a movie, some kind of a science fiction movie.

00:20:56.540 And immediately, what happened was, you know, the left's, the iteration of the international left and the activist milieu was cloaked in anti-war activism, right?

00:21:13.760 And it shouldn't have taken much effort on the part of the mass media.

00:21:17.700 Unfortunately, and I have to confess as a lifelong journalist, the media was not at all helpful in failing to recognize that this phenomenon that was being presented on the nightly news and on the front pages of the paper as an anti-war movement, they were actually on the other side.

00:21:35.900 They weren't against war.

00:21:36.820 They were on the other side.

00:21:38.520 And at the core of it, at the very, very core of it, whatever you happen to think about Afghanistan or Iraq, at the core of it was anti-Zionism, this thing called anti-Zionism. 0.57

00:21:48.640 And that had sort of percolated from the 1970s.

00:21:52.040 A lot of it was informed by Soviet propaganda.

00:21:54.560 But from the United Nations, you know, the Durban conference, the proposition that Zionism is racism, right?

00:22:04.380 Now, in Canada, the way Erwin Kotler put it to me, I think very well, who, he's kind of my lodestar, I confess.

00:22:13.140 Tell everybody who he is.

00:22:14.560 Well, he's a former Canadian justice minister.

00:22:16.580 He founded the Raoul Wallenberg Centre for Human Rights, and I'm a senior fellow with the Raoul Wallenberg Centre.

00:22:21.380 And he's beloved of persecuted Democrats the world round, whether it's Hong Kong or Belarus or just about anywhere, Russia.

00:22:37.360 Anyway, the way he put it to me was that in Canada, particularly, Canadians are, the United Nations is kind of in our DNA.

00:22:48.460 Right.

00:22:48.700 You know, the way we understand our role in the world, our place in the world.

00:22:52.980 I mean, we were there at the Foundation of Israel.

00:22:54.900 We were there in the crafting of the United Nations Declaration on Human Rights.

00:23:01.820 We were there in all of the protocols and conventions that rose from the ashes of the Shoah.

00:23:07.240 This was a very Canadian thing, and it was something to be proud of.

00:23:10.260 But what we haven't really noticed over the years is the way the United Nations has been taken over by the organization of the Islamic Congress. 0.71

00:23:18.720 It's been taken over by the police state bloc.

00:23:20.940 The last time I looked, I think Beijing was basically in control of seven of the 11 major United Nations agencies.

00:23:29.140 And then you get the United Nations Relief Works Agency, which is this strange, strange organization that keeps alive the prospect that Israel is just a temporary aberration. 0.80

00:23:41.360 And that one of the, you know, somehow the massively growing Palestinian refugee population, it's not really a refugee population, will somehow be sorted by the restoration of a Palestinian or an Arab sovereignty in all the places where Israel currently exists.

00:24:03.740 So it's really hard for Canadians to sort of think, hmm, maybe the United Nations, maybe these, are we the baddies, you know?

00:24:11.640 And so how do you see that in parallel with the politicization of, like, the pro-Hamas movements in Canada?

00:24:19.540 And there's things running in parallel here.

00:24:21.240 We talked about the victim-victimizer narrative.

00:24:23.300 We talked about the, what would you say, the alliance between the progressive left and the claim that Zionism is part of the colonial movement, which includes Canada and the U.S.

00:24:33.060 Now you've introduced Canada's role in the U.N. and our historical allegiance with the U.N.

00:24:37.400 How do you see those tangling together?

00:24:39.520 The way I see those tangling together, if we can think of it in terms of the Liberal Party or the Trudeau Liberals, right, not the same as a lot of what a lot of people imagine the Liberals to be,

00:24:51.600 is that this kind of intellectual slovenliness, that the sort of blind adherence to United Nations declarations and so on,

00:25:10.240 and the entire panoply of its, you know, settler-colonial, colonial settler-state politics, its diversity, equity, and inclusion politics.

00:25:23.880 I see. So Canada's historical alliance.

00:25:26.080 It becomes susceptible to it.

00:25:27.660 It's just there's no way that it can defend itself against a virulent, lurid, blood-curdling, anti-Semitic, anti-Semitic.

00:25:42.640 Okay, so let me summarize that and tell me if I've got it right.

00:25:45.480 So we've seen the rise of this progressive insistence that projects like Canada and the United States, et cetera, and Israel are part of this colonial, capitalist, oppressive enterprise.

00:25:56.580 Now that's permeated Canadian society to some degree, but it's also permeated the UN.

00:26:02.120 And Canada has been historically aligned with the UN, and our foreign policy has been determined by that alliance for a very long time.

00:26:10.360 Well, influenced, and if not determined, influenced.

00:26:13.340 And that was a matter of pride in Canada when the UN was quasi-functional organization, let's say.

00:26:18.580 But so you see the emergence of that post-Soviet Union Marxist-inspired colonial rhetoric in the UN and in Canada, and the fact that Canada's been allied with the UN has also shaped our foreign policy in a rather unthinking manner, especially under Trudeau, who has no, what would you say, has what?

00:26:41.280 No knowledge, no imagination, for, like, how do you explain?

00:26:47.100 Okay, here's Trudeau.

00:26:47.800 Here's Trudeau.

00:26:48.400 Here's the thing about Trudeau.

00:26:49.360 Yeah.

00:26:51.460 There's really not much there.

00:26:53.220 I hate to be uncharitable.

00:26:55.260 I think it's time to be uncharitable.

00:26:57.080 Okay.

00:26:57.820 Well, there really isn't much there.

00:27:00.160 He's, I think you've been very interested in the phenomenon of narcissism.

00:27:06.580 There you go.

00:27:07.520 So, the world is, you know, is a vanity mirror.

00:27:12.020 And you have to remember when he came along, it sort of parallels the rise of Trump in the United States, right, when he was first elected, just a few months from the election of Donald Trump.

00:27:23.060 And Donald Trump, you know, said all these scary things about Muslims.

00:27:26.340 And then Justin Trudeau, you know, tweets, well, everybody's welcome to Canada.

00:27:32.240 It doesn't matter.

00:27:32.740 You can be a Muslim.

00:27:33.480 We love you.

00:27:34.320 The next thing you know, he's on the front page of the Rolling Stone magazine.

00:27:38.140 He's the toast of, you know, Vogue photo shoots.

00:27:42.380 He's the leader of the free world.

00:27:44.120 He was the poster boy for the, he is the poster boy for the progressive movement internationally, I would say.

00:27:50.800 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:27:51.580 And he is the, well, and the narcissism element, you know, you talked about him to some degree as an empty drum, let's say.

00:27:58.820 And I have made reference to him as a narcissist.

00:28:01.500 I mean, my observation in that regard was driven by the manner in which he adopted the leadership of the Liberal Party.

00:28:09.320 Because I felt at the, I'd like your opinion about this, when he emerged, I thought, I kind of had two, I was of two opinions, right?

00:28:19.420 People went to him and made the case that he would be a credible and popular leader of the Liberals, not least because of his name brand recognition.

00:28:28.140 And I can imagine being in that position, let's say, and thinking, okay, this is a risky enterprise because I don't have the CV that would indicate that I'm capable of running a G7 country.

00:28:41.860 But if I don't run, then the conservatives who were my father's foes, let's say, and aren't aligned with me politically, have a really good crack at victory.

00:28:52.420 And if I put my name forward, maybe we can forestall that.

00:28:55.260 And then maybe I could put my nose to the grindstone and I could learn, I could surround myself with, like, high-level experts and I could learn to play the part if I, you know, if I was open to that kind of learning.

00:29:08.140 Okay, that's an unlikely scenario, that one.

00:29:11.980 But he did, in fact, adopt it.

00:29:14.500 But he didn't do any of that, right?

00:29:16.300 He didn't.

00:29:16.500 Well, what we, I think a lot of people, I, you know, he's not my cup of tea, but a lot of people were really swept.

00:29:24.440 He was sort of like this matinee idol.

00:29:26.300 You know, a lot of people got caught up in that.

00:29:28.300 Yes, well, he's charming and he's elegant and he's good-looking and he knows how to behave in public and he's got an easy smile.

00:29:35.960 And women find him essentially irresistible.

00:29:39.460 Very photogenic, very charming, as you say.

00:29:41.700 Very, very well.

00:29:42.180 And he's been in that milieu his whole life and he's been groomed for that.

00:29:45.560 But as far as the intellectual milieu, if there was such a thing, around his emergence, well, I mean, everybody was willing to give him a chance.

00:29:57.360 I was willing to give him a chance.

00:29:58.960 I remember speaking to him back when he was running for office, running for, you know, in the election, that period.

00:30:09.240 And I was definitely willing to give him a shot, you know.

00:30:13.120 Why?

00:30:13.980 Well, we spoke a lot about Syria.

00:30:16.060 Yeah.

00:30:16.340 And I have many friends and comrades who are associated with the Syrian revolutionary movement.

00:30:23.520 And what the NATO countries, what was being asked of the NATO countries at the time was a no-fly zone over Syria.

00:30:29.460 All we need is one NATO country to say, yes, we need to do this.

00:30:33.240 Because the Americans couldn't really understand what was going on.

00:30:37.000 And everyone hoped that it might be Trudeau who said, yeah, I'm in.

00:30:41.040 And he did give me, and of course, there was the whole Syrian refugee issue.

00:30:46.860 And he did try to, he made a lot of capital, political capital out of that.

00:30:52.160 We can come to that in a moment.

00:30:53.760 But to understand who he represents and what he's all about, you have to wind the clock back further.

00:31:02.760 You remember when Michael Ignatieff was briefly the leader of the Liberal Party.

00:31:06.500 Tell that story for the...

00:31:07.800 Well, he's a very smart guy, Michael Ignatieff.

00:31:09.920 He was a Harvard professor at the time when they invited him back to Canada.

00:31:13.860 He'd been down in Massachusetts for like 20 years, something like that.

00:31:17.500 Yeah.

00:31:17.800 And a lot of people said, well, you're not really a Canadian.

00:31:19.860 Yeah.

00:31:20.440 He'd been out for quite a while.

00:31:21.920 So anyway, I mean...

00:31:22.680 He was an intellectual heavyweight.

00:31:24.320 Yeah, he was actually.

00:31:25.400 I like Michael Ignatieff.

00:31:27.120 I mean, just as an intellectual.

00:31:29.580 Well, he's certainly much more credible as a leader of a G7 country than Justin Trudeau, at least on the basis of his...

00:31:35.660 Yeah, what we've got basically, you know, it's so difficult to explain this to people from away.

00:31:39.920 You know, if you can imagine a kind of, oh, I don't know, a TikTok account run by, you know, a 19-year-old college girl in charge of a G7 country.

00:31:57.460 That's basically...

00:31:58.840 14-year-old.

00:31:59.580 Okay.

00:32:00.220 But anyway, okay, so he emerges.

00:32:02.420 How does he present himself to the Liberal Party as a worthwhile leader of the party?

00:32:13.680 And for this, he turned to McKinsey & Associates.

00:32:19.680 Consulting firm.

00:32:20.820 Major consulting firm.

00:32:21.680 Massive global consulting firm.

00:32:23.200 The apologist for dictators everywhere.

00:32:28.040 I think, I don't know how many billions of dollars they've had to pay out in lawsuits for boosting OxyContin sales in the United States.

00:32:37.520 A fellow by the name of Dominic Barton, who happened to be a Canadian, who spent half his life in China as the head of McKinsey.

00:32:44.880 Basically, Trudeau brought him in, and essentially, to add gravitas to his candidacy for the Liberal Party...

00:32:54.320 Under whose advisement did he bring in McKinsey?

00:32:56.520 Do you know?

00:32:56.940 Like, was that his idea?

00:32:58.180 I don't imagine.

00:32:59.320 Well, it's a small town.

00:33:00.600 It is a small town.

00:33:01.960 It is a small town.

00:33:02.800 Yes.

00:33:03.320 You know what I mean?

00:33:04.080 Ottawa.

00:33:04.780 It was, he was essentially a function of the Canada-China Business Council.

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00:34:14.720 This isn't a really important thing for people to understand.

00:34:20.680 His entire campaign was built around the proposition.

00:34:24.120 And this is how he sort of lent gravitas to himself.

00:34:27.460 That the key to the future is China.

00:34:30.700 Canada's future is China. 0.97

00:34:32.700 The middle class prosperity is all about China, China, China. 0.99

00:34:35.800 And this immediately, you know, he immediately accrued to himself a lot of money and a lot of power and a lot of help.

00:34:45.020 The Desmarais Corporation, the power corporation in Montreal, those whole circles.

00:34:49.900 And of course, his father, people don't like to talk about this when you talk about Pierre Trudeau,

00:34:56.080 but he was probably the most important propaganda asset for the Chinese Communist Party during the Maoist period in the English-speaking world.

00:35:04.340 That's nothing.

00:35:05.280 It was just the Chinese communists. 0.70

00:35:07.440 You know, what'd they kill?

00:35:08.340 A hundred million people.

00:35:09.160 Exactly.

00:35:09.840 So, you know, and Trudeau would trade in this.

00:35:12.740 And he'd say, well, you know, they know me in China, you know, my family name.

00:35:16.660 And a lot of that was sort of glossed over.

00:35:19.620 People didn't notice what was going on.

00:35:21.340 Well, people were optimistic.

00:35:22.520 Because he was so glamorous, right?

00:35:24.200 Well, we were also optimistic, I think, in the West for a reasonable amount of time,

00:35:28.340 that if China integrated itself into the Western economy, that they would liberalize across time.

00:35:32.720 Some of us were.

00:35:33.600 Well, it was a case you could put forward if you were aware with all due caution of the potential risks, right?

00:35:42.760 Yeah, that's what I'm told.

00:35:44.440 Maybe it's the company I keep.

00:35:45.540 I'm trying to give the devil his due here.

00:35:48.320 Well, all I can tell you is that, you know, two things happened in 2001.

00:35:53.040 What happened, the atrocities in New York and Washington, the Al-Qaeda atrocities.

00:36:00.660 And the moment that the West put a knife to its own throat, only three months later, by admitting China into the World Trade Organization. 0.72

00:36:10.540 This is a massive event.

00:36:14.280 And, I mean, I think there were a lot of people of good faith who imagined that the more China modernized and became capitalist, they'd become more like us. 0.98

00:36:24.700 People who understood China knew this was rubbish. 0.97

00:36:27.280 It was not going to happen. 0.77

00:36:28.300 Okay, so now we've got three things operating here.

00:36:31.440 We've got the rise of this kind of neo-Marxism.

00:36:34.700 We've got the UN influence.

00:36:36.660 And now we have the China nexus, right?

00:36:39.240 This is all shaping what's happening in Canada.

00:36:41.540 Yeah, yeah.

00:36:41.760 And, I mean, anybody who's followed Canadian politics at all in the last five years will be aware of the scandals associated with the intimacies between the Trudeau liberals and the United Front Work Department of the Chinese Communist Party and the Organization Department of the Politburo of the Chinese Communist Party.

00:37:04.640 The manipulation and monkey-wrenching of elections in 2019 and 2021.

00:37:11.040 Yeah, we still don't know the full extent of that.

00:37:12.620 Yeah, the whole commission has yet to report, you know, sort of report.

00:37:15.940 Right, and there's background rumors about a number of liberal MPs being unduly influenced on the financial side.

00:37:22.680 Well, more than background rumors.

00:37:24.780 One of the things that's difficult for people to grasp is that, you know, a lot of people ask me, my goodness, the Chinese must have something on.

00:37:34.640 Justin Trudeau.

00:37:35.600 Mm-hmm.

00:37:36.540 Some compromise.

00:37:37.640 Mm-hmm.

00:37:38.880 He doesn't see anything wrong with it.

00:37:41.240 Yes, well, that was evident in many of his pre-election addresses.

00:37:44.160 You know, if you take all the crazy things, I don't know, some of the things that the Democrats are saying about Trump and Russia were not crazy.

00:37:51.260 But if you take all the extreme accusations that the Democrats were making about Trump's associations with the Kremlin in the 2015 election, yeah.

00:38:04.540 Well, multiply that by 10, and you have in the real world Justin Trudeau's collusions and complicity with the Chinese Communist Party.

00:38:18.580 In the open, by the way.

00:38:20.680 And this is the thing.

00:38:22.600 To understand Justin Trudeau, you have to understand he sees nothing wrong with this.

00:38:28.180 When he got elected, immediately after he got elected, in the first election, he sat down with a reporter from the New York Times and said, this is what basically Canada is.

00:38:38.780 He saw a post-national state.

00:38:42.240 Mm-hmm.

00:38:42.440 With no identity.

00:38:43.780 No core identity, no mainstream.

00:38:46.200 Mm-hmm.

00:38:46.420 And immediately, the question should have turned to, I remember talking to Jerry Butts about this, his sort of principal advisor, because we used to be quite chummy.

00:38:54.280 Mm-hmm.

00:38:54.720 And, you know, John Ralston Saul.

00:38:56.840 Jerry doesn't take much of me.

00:38:58.400 He doesn't like me either.

00:38:59.360 Ah, okay.

00:39:00.360 You know, John Ralston Saul, the philosopher, he wrote this concept of Canada as a post-modern state.

00:39:08.540 And it was a kind of a nuanced, interesting philosophical, whatever.

00:39:11.020 And I remember talking to Jerry, I said, kind of, Trudeau kind of got that wrong.

00:39:14.720 I mean, wasn't he kind of channeling John Ralston Saul?

00:39:17.600 He said, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

00:39:19.180 He meant it, post-national.

00:39:21.300 And so here's the question.

00:39:22.400 How do you do nationalists?

00:39:23.000 Where do you get that idea?

00:39:24.420 Like, Trudeau?

00:39:25.740 Because, first of all, it's an idea.

00:39:27.240 So it's surprising he had it at all.

00:39:28.720 Well, if you hang around with the Canada-China Business Council long enough, if you enthusiastically

00:39:35.720 support, for instance, the largest overseas acquisition in the history of the People's

00:39:40.940 Republic of China, the, you know, CNOX acquisition of Nexon.

00:39:47.200 Flesh that out a little bit.

00:39:48.400 Well, yeah, it was at a time when, just before Justin Trudeau was elected, when the Chinese 1.00

00:39:53.480 Communist Party was buying up all the major, really key strategic sort of spigot points

00:39:58.240 in the oil patch in Alberta.

00:40:00.800 And the Harper government, the cabinet, was terribly divided about this.

00:40:05.640 And eventually, the good guys won.

00:40:10.620 The people I consider the good guys won.

00:40:12.100 Harper said, okay, that's it.

00:40:14.040 You know, sure, it's a lot of money.

00:40:15.220 They're offering us twice the share value for every purchase they're making.

00:40:19.180 But, no, we do not want Canada's energy sector to be owned by the organization department

00:40:24.600 of the Politburo.

00:40:26.060 Probably better than that than Stephen Grilbeau.

00:40:30.260 Anyway, where were we?

00:40:32.340 Okay, well, we're weaving a web here.

00:40:35.220 The thing I find...

00:40:35.860 Oh, yeah, the post-national stuff.

00:40:37.520 This is really key.

00:40:38.560 Yep.

00:40:40.160 How do you do national security in a post-national state?

00:40:44.280 What does it even mean?

00:40:48.080 That's...

00:40:48.640 You see, I don't think they really thought this through.

00:40:51.900 That's a fair assumption, I would say.

00:40:52.800 What are Canada's national interests if we're a post-national country?

00:40:57.860 And so, essentially...

00:40:58.080 Yeah, well, there's no national interest by definition.

00:41:00.160 There's this kind of...

00:41:01.500 And as I say, I don't know that I want to describe it as an ideology.

00:41:05.020 It's kind of like an ideational package.

00:41:06.660 This notion that Canada is this racist, colonial, settler state that has engaged in genocide after

00:41:17.140 genocide against its indigenous peoples.

00:41:20.460 And we're the liberals, and we're the nice ones.

00:41:24.040 And so, that's essentially what Trudeau was all about.

00:41:28.420 And I think, you know, there's an adage that what starts with the Jews doesn't end with the Jews.

00:41:34.720 Yeah, definitely.

00:41:35.920 They're the canaries in the coal mine.

00:41:37.500 They are, and that's very true.

00:41:39.340 That's very true.

00:41:40.460 And I don't want to dispute that.

00:41:43.820 And I don't want what I'm about to be...

00:41:45.660 What I'm about to say as a contradiction of that.

00:41:48.100 My personal view is that if it did end with the Jews, it would still be evil. 1.00

00:41:54.680 Yeah.

00:41:54.980 So, big deal, kind of a deal.

00:41:56.920 A lot of people always put it this way.

00:41:58.460 You know, first they come for the Saturday people, and then they'll come for the Sunday people.

00:42:01.720 Right, right.

00:42:02.620 Yeah.

00:42:02.900 In Canada, it happened the other way around.

00:42:05.340 Mm-hmm.

00:42:06.220 It happened on the weekend of May 29th.

00:42:09.680 Yeah, May 29th, 2021.

00:42:12.660 When Justin Trudeau lowered the flag on Parliament Hill.

00:42:18.100 And on the Monday, ordered the flag lowered on all federal buildings across the country.

00:42:22.900 Owing to a report out of Kamloops about the discovery of a mass grave.

00:42:27.260 Mm-hmm.

00:42:28.640 And on the Tuesday, the chief of the Kamloops First Nation said,

00:42:32.280 well, actually, we didn't say mass grave.

00:42:35.260 But the flag stayed down.

00:42:39.280 The flags were at half-mast.

00:42:42.280 For how long?

00:42:43.480 Like six months?

00:42:44.220 Seven months, I think it was.

00:42:45.200 It was unbelievable.

00:42:45.900 And the people who, God bless them, who managed to get them back up again with the Mohawks. 1.00

00:42:50.660 Thank God for the Mohawks.

00:42:52.260 Oh, I didn't know that twist on the story.

00:42:54.320 Yeah.

00:42:54.920 They said, look, you know, we have a lot of people who are veterans,

00:42:58.060 and we lower our flags on the 11th of November, and also on Aboriginal Veterans Day.

00:43:04.420 So how the hell are we going to lower the flags if they're already lowered?

00:43:07.340 Do something about it.

00:43:08.040 So how do you understand the relationship between, okay, so now we have a lot of balls in the air.

00:43:14.380 We have the post-national state.

00:43:16.660 We have the idea of the colonialist state.

00:43:19.660 We have the, like, the perversion of the UN.

00:43:23.300 We have the rise of neo-Marxism in Canada.

00:43:25.540 We have the pernicious influence of the Chinese communists on Trudeau's campaign and his worldview right from the beginning stemming from his father. 0.95

00:43:36.000 Okay, so now we have to take all that, and we have to tie it back to this rise in anti-Semitism.

00:43:41.700 Now, the nexus there, at least in part, is the colonial, the ideology of colonialist state.

00:43:47.240 I think you can wrap it up this way, this strange thing that we've just described, right?

00:43:51.280 A lot of people talk about woke politics or whatever.

00:43:56.300 It's not wicked because it's anti-Semitic.

00:44:03.760 It's anti-Semitic because it's wicked. 0.97

00:44:06.660 Yeah.

00:44:07.100 It has nowhere else to go.

00:44:09.820 This is what history—

00:44:10.600 So why draw that to station?

00:44:12.020 History—because this is what history tells us about the agony of the Jews.

00:44:19.540 And I really wish we had been able to kind of emerge from this.

00:44:23.640 Everybody loves dead Jews. 1.00

00:44:24.900 Everyone wants to cry, you know, isn't it sad?

00:44:27.420 But God forbid they should stand up on their own two feet and say,

00:44:31.020 actually, no, we're restoring Jewish sovereignty in our ancient homeland,

00:44:36.000 and you will not take that tone with us anymore, thank you very much.

00:44:39.640 You know, everybody would prefer to sort of be like, you know, sing Pete Seeger songs and pat Jews on the head. 0.99

00:44:48.880 When Jews say, actually, no, we're—I mean, thanks for the help, but we're going to stand up for ourselves.

00:44:54.960 This is what a lot of people on the left could not abide when the Jews began to get saucy in this way. 1.00

00:45:02.060 And interestingly, this is very tied into the way the sort of Trudeau liberals understand indigenous people in Canada.

00:45:12.720 And it's tied into the whole sort of from Turtle Island to Palestine that you keep hearing in the activist milieu.

00:45:20.800 Turtle Island being the name for Canada.

00:45:23.160 Well, it was actually a white guy who came up with that.

00:45:26.300 Yes, I'm sure that it has, like, nothing to do with indigenous words.

00:45:29.540 Gary Snyder, he was a poet in Chicago, I think.

00:45:32.060 Anyway, I mean, there is some vague reference that can be drawn to, I think, an Anishinaabe creation myth, but whatever.

00:45:38.600 I think it's a—it is a bowdlerization of indigenous, you know, the magnificent cultural diversity of indigenous peoples in this country, which we could talk about because you live in an interesting place, or we're filming this in a very interesting place. 0.99

00:45:54.740 But the idea that if indigenous people would stand up and say, actually, okay, this whole territory, as far as the eye can see, you idiots, you never signed a treaty with us. 0.97

00:46:09.200 We still own the land under British and Canadian constitutional law. 0.99

00:46:14.400 Aboriginal title is enforceable, and we're going to start like—we're going to start acting like we own the place. 0.93

00:46:19.980 You better deal with us.

00:46:21.200 You're not going to chop down all our trees and ship them off to China.

00:46:24.740 Thank you very much.

00:46:26.220 You're going to leave a lot of the wealth in the countryside with all our white neighbors. 1.00

00:46:31.240 We're going to work in sawmills.

00:46:32.360 We're going to produce wealth from this territory.

00:46:35.300 People like Justin Trudeau's liberals do not want to hear this.

00:46:39.240 They would rather come to you and say, oh, yes, would you like a wellness center?

00:46:44.440 You know, stroke you on the back.

00:46:45.860 Oh, you put your—you know, victims, your survivors.

00:46:48.080 And by the way, here's $380 million to busy yourself rummaging around in graveyards for the next 10 years.

00:46:56.820 This is, I think, really important to understand about this phenomenon.

00:47:02.340 It is a kind of liberal racism, a liberal racism of low expectations.

00:47:08.820 So there's all that.

00:47:11.940 But there's also the fact that there's now 1.8 million Muslims in the country.

00:47:16.660 Right, because we need another dimension of complexity to this conversation.

00:47:19.020 And I don't want to—you know, it's very—this is really fighting words for me.

00:47:23.200 Because, you know, a lot of my friends are Muslims and Arabs and my compatriots.

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00:48:22.920 My circle.

00:48:23.720 And we have to be very, very, very careful about the way we talk about this.

00:48:28.260 But the reality of it is that when you have this notion of Canada, this, you know, this...

00:48:38.440 Multicultural.

00:48:39.300 Yeah, this multiplicity of diversities and so on.

00:48:43.320 What you find is that there are certain organizations and institutions in this country that are very well financed and resourced by the federal government and are intended to speak on behalf of, for instance, Canadian Muslims.

00:49:00.120 One of them is the Muslim Association of Canada, which is explicitly devoted to the theology of Hassan al-Banna, the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, the fountainhead of Islamism, who was a collaborator with and a philosophical fellow traveler with Adolf Hitler.

00:49:21.200 So, this is a bit of a problem, you know?

00:49:24.480 I mean, this is not going to work out well in the long run.

00:49:28.700 And there's only 350,000 Jews.

00:49:31.620 Right, right, right.

00:49:33.600 It's a small town.

00:49:34.460 Wasn't it Melanie Jolie who commented that people have to pay attention to the ethnic makeup of her writing?

00:49:39.580 Yeah, like Thomas Mulcair, who's kind of an old-fashioned social Democrat, you know, somebody who speaks the same language I speak, quite frankly.

00:49:47.900 Former leader of the Federal National New Democrats, the Socialist Party in Canada.

00:49:52.380 Yeah, yeah.

00:49:53.360 And he said, you know, this Canada's position on Israel is incomprehensible.

00:49:58.600 You insist, because you need to, that Israel has a right to defend itself, and yet you will refuse to send any munitions to Israel or anything at all that might be used as a part of an airplane that might be in the Israeli Air Force.

00:50:20.380 And she went so far as to, I think it was General Dynamics, as a plant in Quebec.

00:50:25.320 So it's actually American material going to Israel.

00:50:32.300 And she said, no, we're not going to issue an export permit for that either.

00:50:36.260 So Israel has a right to defend itself, but Israel is not allowed to have the means to defend itself. 0.84

00:50:42.800 So Mulcair says, this is incomprehensible.

00:50:45.980 It's just gobbledygook.

00:50:48.240 It's mumbo-jumbo.

00:50:49.780 You know, talking to Melanie Jolie, the foreign affairs minister.

00:50:52.820 And her response was, Thomas, have you seen the demographics of my writing?

00:50:56.920 Yeah, right.

00:50:58.120 And I have, actually.

00:50:59.240 It's a stunning response.

00:50:59.740 Yeah.

00:51:00.000 A stunning, amazing she would say that.

00:51:02.200 Yeah.

00:51:02.560 You know, I mean, first of all, it's reprehensible that that's the case.

00:51:05.760 But the fact that she would be so blatant as to say it is really quite the miracle.

00:51:11.000 And if you look at the Democrats of her writing, or it's probably the demographics of her writing,

00:51:16.380 Hansa Karsherville, the immigration into that writing has been off the charts.

00:51:24.220 I mean, immigration into the country has been off the charts.

00:51:27.080 Right.

00:51:27.440 To add another dimension of complexity as well.

00:51:31.180 Yeah.

00:51:31.420 And we should talk about Polly Eve.

00:51:32.860 Because when we're talking about Trudeau, we really are talking about a dead man walking.

00:51:36.980 Yesterday, his government almost collapsed.

00:51:38.900 Yes, he's done that a number of times without him actually disappearing.

00:51:42.820 Oh, nothing like it.

00:51:43.020 No, I understand.

00:51:43.780 Wow.

00:51:44.160 I understand.

00:51:44.580 For everybody watching and listening, his deputy prime minister resigned yesterday, also his

00:51:48.840 minister of finance, and like the fifth powerful woman, so to speak, in his feminist cabinet 0.58

00:51:55.760 that has had to abscond because, well, for a variety of reasons.

00:52:00.980 Yeah.

00:52:01.240 One of them apparently being that Justin Trudeau finds it impossible to deal with women who 0.97

00:52:06.840 have anything approximating their own opinions.

00:52:09.260 And just for fun, her replacement, Dominic LeBlanc, used to be Trudeau's babysitter.

00:52:18.000 Now, just imagine if Donald Trump appointed his babysitter as the secretary of the treasury.

00:52:23.860 The Yanks would have a lot of fun with that. 0.96

00:52:25.220 You don't think being Trudeau's babysitter qualifies him to be finance minister of a G7?

00:52:30.780 Just wondering, just wondering.

00:52:33.000 I don't know.

00:52:33.720 Yeah.

00:52:33.960 Well, that also speaks to this weird, we could throw this into the mix too.

00:52:38.620 I don't know what you think about this, but it seems to me as well that the way that Canada

00:52:42.820 is constituted, especially with its emphasis on bilingualism, that it dooms the entire

00:52:48.040 country to domination by the 13% of French-Canadian bilingualism.

00:52:53.300 What is it in Canada?

00:52:54.920 Here's the thing.

00:52:55.960 The other thing that Americans have to understand is that Canada is a bilingual,

00:53:03.060 constitutional monarchy, one of the most decentralized federal systems on earth that is thinly populated

00:53:14.240 and spread out across the top of the most dynamic cultural promenade in the history of nation states.

00:53:25.440 So the role of a Canadian prime minister has always been to unite the country, to keep, you

00:53:32.380 know, the role of federal policy has always been to allow Canadians to have a conversation

00:53:38.820 amongst themselves.

00:53:39.780 It's why we fund the CBC and the Canadian Council for the Arts and what have you.

00:53:44.940 And it's a difficult thing to do because we are very, very culturally diverse.

00:53:50.960 I mean, in every traditional sense of the word, the French-speaking people of Quebec,

00:53:58.400 the Poulain Quebecers, are a nation.

00:54:00.980 In every conventional sense of the word.

00:54:04.220 And Canada is, well, yeah, I guess we're kind of a nation.

00:54:07.580 But it's complicated.

00:54:09.400 I mean, it is vastly complicated.

00:54:13.140 And it's a huge landscape.

00:54:14.500 So the function of a prime minister has to be to unite the country.

00:54:19.800 Yes, under something approximating a national identity.

00:54:22.360 That's right.

00:54:22.840 Which Trudeau dispensed with immediately.

00:54:24.640 Something that when push comes to shove, it's possible that we might be able to muster fire

00:54:29.260 in the belly.

00:54:30.000 Right, right.

00:54:30.600 The defense of this.

00:54:31.340 Or maybe even just the desire to keep the country together and functioning.

00:54:35.300 Quite so.

00:54:36.040 If we couldn't go all the way out for passion.

00:54:37.640 And so the other thing about Trudeau is that it's complete rejection of that.

00:54:42.080 A complete reversal of that.

00:54:44.160 It's just like, meh, we're a post-national country.

00:54:46.620 And immigration, fine.

00:54:48.560 You want to come in?

00:54:49.240 Yes.

00:54:50.020 You know, Dominic Barton, who ended up being our ambassador to China, the guy who came

00:54:54.460 from China's McKinsey and Associates, who crafted Trudeau's campaign material at the

00:55:05.200 very, very, very beginning of his rise to politics, says, yeah, we should actually have

00:55:11.120 about a half a million people coming into Canada every year.

00:55:14.580 We should aim for 100 million.

00:55:15.540 We should at least double our population, you know, in the next generation or two.

00:55:20.400 Well, we've had more than half a million coming in.

00:55:22.460 Yes, we have.

00:55:23.180 Yeah, by a substantial number.

00:55:24.800 We don't know how many people live in this country, Jordan.

00:55:27.300 Yeah.

00:55:28.220 We know from a recent census it's about 41 million.

00:55:34.100 But on top of that, we have, well, for instance, over the next 12 months, 5 million people who

00:55:42.420 live in Canada on various kinds of temporary permits and so on.

00:55:46.740 So it's one-eighth of the population.

00:55:48.280 Within the next 12 months, those permits expire.

00:55:51.060 Mm-hmm.

00:55:51.340 So then there's another between 50,000 and 500,000, according to the official guess of the Immigration

00:56:00.820 and Refugees and Citizenship Department, who are what they call out-of-contract workers,

00:56:06.480 which are undocumented workers.

00:56:08.160 Now, for Americans to hear these numbers, you know, America's 10 times as many people,

00:56:12.760 it's 10 times as populous.

00:56:14.640 So, you know, just do the math, right?

00:56:17.220 If there's 5 million, if there are 50 million Americans or people living in the United States

00:56:22.400 whose temporary permits expire within the next 12 months and who have all given every impression

00:56:29.620 that they do not intend to leave.

00:56:31.620 Yes.

00:56:31.960 Why would they leave?

00:56:32.760 So, Pierre Polyev's coming along, right?

00:56:36.360 Yep.

00:56:37.040 And the interesting thing about Pierre Polyev, this goes back to what we were talking about

00:56:40.040 earlier about language, and is this liberal or, you know, what the hell?

00:56:43.760 Pierre Polyev, when he talks about housing, when he talks about employment, when he talks

00:56:49.440 about access to health care, when he talks about wages, he's Bernie Sanders.

00:56:56.220 Americans have to understand this.

00:56:58.360 Try to imagine Bernie Sanders.

00:56:59.880 I mean, he, and also the trade union vote has gone to...

00:57:06.780 The conservatives.

00:57:07.440 The conservatives.

00:57:08.000 Yeah.

00:57:08.260 This has never happened before.

00:57:09.840 Yeah.

00:57:10.200 The working class vote has gone to Pierre Polyev.

00:57:13.920 I don't know.

00:57:14.920 I mean, I'm not a partisan conservative.

00:57:16.240 I don't know if I've ever written a conservative sentence in my life, by the way, although most

00:57:19.560 of my friends seem to be conservatives.

00:57:20.920 I don't know how that happens.

00:57:22.180 Well, the whole world's upside down, so that's not surprising.

00:57:25.040 So, what the hell...

00:57:25.880 Whatever the classic political distinctions were 15 years ago, whatever they are now,

00:57:30.940 bears no relationship with what they were 15 years ago.

00:57:33.940 So, my great fear, and I'll close with this, and you can challenge me.

00:57:38.180 Tell me I'm wrong, or if you like, whatever.

00:57:40.780 You can argue.

00:57:41.340 I think we've got about a year or two before everything starts to come unglued.

00:57:49.880 And I'm very worried about this.

00:57:51.700 I've always been an optimist.

00:57:53.320 I've been an inveterate optimist.

00:57:54.920 But I actually haven't seen in Polyev a degree of sophistication in comprehending the nature 1.00

00:58:04.060 and the scope of what he's going to be facing when he takes it.

00:58:08.440 Well, I don't know if he can comprehend it.

00:58:10.940 I mean, I regard myself as a moderately sophisticated political observer, and you've made me more pessimistic

00:58:19.980 today.

00:58:20.660 Sorry.

00:58:21.020 Well, I was already very concerned about the state of Canada, because I think that...

00:58:27.160 Well, I'll give you an example, and you probably know this already.

00:58:30.420 But before Justin took office, GDP per capita in Canada was approximately at parity with the

00:58:39.240 U.S.

00:58:40.080 Okay, now our richest province, Ontario, the inhabitants of our richest province by per capita

00:58:46.240 GDP, are poorer than the average inhabitant of Mississippi.

00:58:52.240 I thought it was Alabama.

00:58:53.540 Is it Mississippi?

00:58:55.040 Same thing.

00:58:55.460 Last thing.

00:58:57.160 The people in our richest province are poorer than the people in the U.S. poorest state.

00:59:03.480 Right?

00:59:03.660 That's a nine-year decline.

00:59:05.240 It's an absolute bloody catastrophe.

00:59:06.720 And we know Trudeau just announced a $62 billion deficit yesterday, which was $22 billion

00:59:15.720 higher than the pessimistic estimate that his finance minister had come up with a few months

00:59:20.420 ago.

00:59:21.120 Whatever state we think the country is in is nowhere near as grim as the state the country

00:59:28.020 is actually in.

00:59:28.720 And what my fear for Poliev is that he's going to take power in October, because I think Trudeau

00:59:36.460 will hang on till then, but maybe not.

00:59:38.240 We'll see.

00:59:39.480 And things will be revealed to be demonstrably worse than they are on multiple dimensions.

00:59:46.840 You've outlined like six in our discussion today.

00:59:50.140 And he will be saddled with the blame.

00:59:53.340 And so he'll have a four-year term while he muddles through the absolute bloody nightmare

00:59:58.880 that Trudeau has left, and then the Liberals are conniving their way back into power.

01:00:03.080 No, that's never going to happen.

01:00:04.620 Okay.

01:00:05.120 So, well, so you're less pessimistic on that.

01:00:07.540 On that, yeah.

01:00:08.240 I mean, well, the Liberals might, but it might be some iteration of a Liberal party that,

01:00:13.100 you know, older Canadians are more familiar with.

01:00:15.300 Yes.

01:00:15.840 Well, yeah, I think the probability, like the most likely outcome in an October election

01:00:21.320 in 2025 is that the Liberals are essentially decimated.

01:00:24.860 Well, they're history.

01:00:26.340 Yeah.

01:00:26.600 I mean, they could remember after Mulroney, after the Mulroney government collapsed, essentially,

01:00:32.980 I think the piece, the progressive Conservatives were reduced to three seats federally, right?

01:00:37.600 That could easily happen.

01:00:38.100 Well, here's an interesting story.

01:00:40.120 You know, everybody, you find this a lot as sort of speculation about, well, oh, this Trump

01:00:45.100 thing, you know, could it happen in Canada?

01:00:46.740 Right-wing populism, yada, yada, everyone wets their pants.

01:00:49.360 Oh, my God, not here.

01:00:50.980 Well, it actually did happen here, and it happened back then, and it was the Reform Party.

01:00:54.760 Yeah.

01:00:55.440 That's also happening in the UK.

01:00:57.580 You know that Farage fashioned his party after the Reform Party in Canada.

01:01:05.140 Well, one of the things I think Conservatives should remember about the Reform Party is

01:01:08.800 the result of the Reform Party was they reduced the Conservatives to three, and they ushered

01:01:14.460 in a decade of Liberal rule.

01:01:16.840 So, good luck to you, lads.

01:01:19.080 Yeah.

01:01:19.260 Canadians, I think, are, you know, and this is something I also want to stress, the overwhelming

01:01:24.760 majority of Canadians are not anti-Semites.

01:01:27.360 Oh, definitely not, yes.

01:01:29.560 I would say probably the overwhelming majority of Muslims are not anti-Semites, although that's

01:01:38.340 hard to say.

01:01:39.480 I referred to...

01:01:40.360 It would also depend to some degree on how you phrased the question.

01:01:43.580 That's right.

01:01:44.420 In fact, I refer to a study of Muslim public opinion.

01:01:48.780 Yeah, yeah.

01:01:49.080 And it was actually the proportion of Muslims who agreed to answer a particular question

01:01:57.720 about suicide bombing and about whether or not the state of Israel should be allowed

01:02:02.860 to exist.

01:02:03.420 It was, you know, it was pretty high.

01:02:07.660 There was...

01:02:08.420 Do you remember, there was a big debate about five years ago, six years ago, about Islamophobia?

01:02:14.780 Oh, yes.

01:02:15.620 In Canada.

01:02:16.300 You know, there was going to be a...

01:02:17.920 There was going to be law.

01:02:19.500 There was going to be statutory reform to sort of outlaw Islamophobia.

01:02:24.240 Yeah, another hate crime.

01:02:25.160 There were liberals refused to define what they actually meant by Islamophobia.

01:02:30.220 You defined that sort of thing after the fact.

01:02:32.180 Yeah.

01:02:32.600 And you would hear the liberals say that every day, you know, Muslims in Canada are subjected

01:02:36.860 to racist abuse and intimidation.

01:02:38.880 Yeah.

01:02:39.020 That sort of thing.

01:02:39.940 And I remember, because I'm a complete public opinion poll nerd, data is the thing.

01:02:44.800 I need to get...

01:02:45.600 Give me the data.

01:02:46.340 Everybody's opinion.

01:02:47.080 Who cares?

01:02:47.880 Give me the data.

01:02:49.200 And public opinion back then showed that the overwhelming majority of...

01:02:52.820 Well, Muslims in Canada were actually demonstrating a higher degree of pride in their country than

01:03:00.640 what you might call old stock Canadians. 0.87

01:03:03.260 And the main complaint that Muslims had about Canada was so damn cold here.

01:03:08.360 Nobody was worried about... 0.95

01:03:09.760 Nobody was freaking...

01:03:10.600 Perfectly valid complaint, by the way.

01:03:12.880 You know, it's just...

01:03:14.800 I think we have to be very, very, very careful about understanding the nature of the problem.

01:03:22.820 And we have to be very careful about the words that we use, the language that we use.

01:03:27.400 And we all use these words, the kind of euphemism, euphemisms, left-wing or progressive.

01:03:32.220 Are you kidding me?

01:03:33.180 What is progressive about the phenomena that we end up describing as progressive?

01:03:38.200 How is this in any way an aid of human progress or civilizational progress?

01:03:42.800 It's reactionary.

01:03:44.040 It's regressive.

01:03:46.200 It's not liberal.

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01:04:33.400 So let's return to the beginning of our conversation and the topic that we had begun to investigate.

01:05:03.100 I mean, because I'm curious about why, what it was over the last year.

01:05:08.100 Tell me the story of your engagement with the rise in anti-Semitism, like phenomenon by phenomenon.

01:05:16.040 You know, I mean, the things that leaped out for me were the riots in Montreal.

01:05:20.400 I mean, I just hate to see that.

01:05:21.560 I lived in Montreal for seven years.

01:05:23.560 I loved Montreal.

01:05:25.020 It was a great city.

01:05:26.960 It was safe.

01:05:27.940 Like you could walk, a woman could walk anywhere in Montreal at three in the morning with no problem. 1.00

01:05:32.360 There was no poor areas.

01:05:34.800 And it had an unbelievably rich, like, nightlife and culture.

01:05:39.520 And it was a wonderful place to live, extremely peaceful.

01:05:43.500 And it was diverse in the most positive possible manner.

01:05:47.420 And to see riots, to see the sorts of things that are happening in Concordia,

01:05:51.960 the sorts of things that are happening on the streets in Montreal, it's just, it's appalling beyond belief.

01:05:56.940 And then, of course, I was embarrassed as a former, well, current, I suppose, professor at the University of Toronto to see the encampments there and the encampments at McGill.

01:06:07.340 I got my doctoral degree at McGill and I loved McGill and it was a great university.

01:06:11.440 And so, there's terrible things afoot in Canada that I would have never dreamed of occurring here.

01:06:19.680 And, you know, I have a particular and personal animus against the Trudeau government for a variety of reasons.

01:06:25.260 But I'm very curious about what you've seen.

01:06:27.980 Like, I don't even know how politically aligned you and I are.

01:06:30.380 I mean, that's a complicated thing in today's world.

01:06:32.200 But you're obviously very disturbed by what you're observing.

01:06:35.960 And we have a lot of international listeners and viewers on this show.

01:06:39.220 And so, what have you seen emerge in Canada, you know?

01:06:43.420 Yeah, well, I'll go back, I think, to what I was inarticulately trying to describe about the trajectory of the left since the 1990s.

01:06:52.460 I think by the 80s, I think, or the 90s, you could say that all of, we'd won, we, if I can say that, because I kind of came from the left.

01:07:02.900 Although I have no ideological commitments, and I'm kind of sour these days on the left.

01:07:07.420 But anyway, we'd won all our bouts.

01:07:11.100 Yeah.

01:07:11.560 We'd won them all.

01:07:12.680 Yeah.

01:07:13.120 Civil rights, equal rights for people of color.

01:07:17.000 Gay marriage.

01:07:17.840 Gay marriage, the right of women to equality in the workplace, the right of unions to organize, labor relations standards, environmental laws were coming along.

01:07:30.880 We'd won all our big battles.

01:07:34.000 And in the court of public opinion as well.

01:07:36.000 Oh, yes.

01:07:36.180 Not just legally.

01:07:36.960 Oh, yes.

01:07:37.260 Or electorally.

01:07:38.620 Yeah.

01:07:38.780 And I think, I mean, a mistake to get too weird, not to get too weird about it, but one mistake Marxists made was this idea that there is no more useful role for the bourgeoisie in the progress of human society.

01:07:55.520 They actually were wrong about that, because it was the bourgeoisie that led the charge against slavery and for women's rights.

01:08:05.640 So, at any rate, by the 80s or the 90s, you know, we'd won.

01:08:10.420 So, something peculiar has happened, and there is this very dark phenomenon that has occupied all the places where the left used to be.

01:08:25.080 And it is invariably masochistic, sinister, self-hating.

01:08:37.960 Let's tear down the liberal democracies. 0.99

01:08:42.420 Let's cast Canada as this illegitimate to racist colonial settler state. 0.99

01:08:48.240 Let's identify Israel as the epitome of everything that we loathe and despise. 1.00

01:08:53.780 It's an ugly, ugly, ugly thing. 1.00

01:08:58.320 And, I mean, I think it's ugly. 0.86

01:09:01.460 Maybe that's an opinion.

01:09:02.760 I don't know.

01:09:03.340 I think it's demonstrably true.

01:09:06.620 And that was the thing that I was watching over the years, is that, you know, I spent a lot of, well, my last major book was about Afghanistan, and I spent a lot of time in Syria and the northeast with the Kurds and what have you.

01:09:18.440 How much knowledge do you think typical Canadians have about what's going on?

01:09:23.100 Very, very little.

01:09:25.080 And why do you think that is?

01:09:29.080 A lot.

01:09:29.800 Okay, here's a proposition.

01:09:34.060 Everybody likes to beat up on the news media, right?

01:09:38.460 I've come up in the news media in the old discipline.

01:09:41.960 You spend six years as an apprentice before you're a journeyman in the old guild system.

01:09:47.440 Six years as a reporter.

01:09:49.340 After that, well, maybe you'll be allowed to have an opinion about something.

01:09:53.100 Really elaborate conventions and disciplines in what was essentially a trade, a craft.

01:10:02.940 And with the, you know, the golden era was about the 1980s, I would say, 1970s, 1980s.

01:10:12.220 And then with the advent of digital technologies and a whole bunch of other reasons, news, the news media, the conventional news media began to wither away and collapse.

01:10:23.140 And it's replaced by, you know, people talk about the mainstream media today is Twitter.

01:10:29.320 That's the mainstream media now.

01:10:30.620 And so in this period, it became increasingly difficult for journalists to actually tell a story.

01:10:41.160 The results would be, you know, the results would be, you know, the results would be downed.

01:10:43.900 It's much easier to basically fill your shift with three or four stories for deadline, each of which more or less uphold the narrative framework of the subscriber base that your media organization is targeting.

01:11:05.160 A lot of it does have, a lot of it really is about the decline and the collapse of news media.

01:11:13.280 I mean, I can talk about that a little bit because it's something I know.

01:11:18.440 But I think a lot of it too, I think, is language, is simple language that probably ends up with, you know, most ordinary people who are only casually interested in, you know, the struggle for democracy in China or events in the Middle East or the strange creature that has come to occupy all the spaces where the liberal party used to be.

01:11:46.500 Mm-hmm.

01:11:47.420 It's the language that we use.

01:11:49.140 How conservatives are the conservative?

01:11:51.640 How liberal are the liberals?

01:11:52.540 Well, the conservatives in the UK weren't very conservative for the 14 years they governed.

01:11:56.540 Well, yeah, I mean.

01:11:57.820 And we'll see what happens in Canada.

01:11:59.660 You can't call Donald Trump a conservative.

01:12:02.100 He's anything but.

01:12:03.200 Well.

01:12:04.160 And I don't think you can call Justin Trudeau liberal, really, in any conventional sense.

01:12:10.240 No, I don't.

01:12:10.840 Very authoritarian, very much a sort of state capitalist thought control kind of way of looking at politics.

01:12:23.020 Well, you know, one of the things our discussion is sort of highlighting, I think, is that let's say you adopt the narrative that the center is corrupt and patriarchal and oppressive and Canada's destiny is post-national.

01:12:37.660 Okay, now, one hypothetical problem with that is, well, what rises to take the place of the center?

01:12:46.480 And you've pointed to all sorts of things, like a demented kind of neo-Marxism, the rise of an authoritarian UN on the foreign policy front, the dire and dismal influence of the Chinese Communist Party,

01:12:58.860 the rise of the Islamist faction of the increasingly large Muslim population, and then, well, okay, that's for, and then the rise, and the associated rise of the, yeah, yeah, the colonialist narrative that casts Israel as king of the oppressive states, right? 0.66

01:13:23.340 Well, so it's this fractionation, you know, once that center collapses, instead of everybody becoming free, you get this absurd fractionation, and then a war between different, what would you say, centers of power.

01:13:36.740 And we're trying to flesh out the pattern of that.

01:13:39.820 I mean, you pointed to a lot of things that are going wrong simultaneously, and there's some thread that unites them, but some of it's just emblematic of a kind of chaotic collapse of identity, right?

01:13:51.380 And so, and Trudeau's going to step out of this, leaving us in Canada in a terrible mess.

01:13:56.640 Let's talk about Poliev a little bit.

01:13:58.740 I mean, I know him, and what I've seen so far, I'm happy about.

01:14:05.180 I mean, I've been talking to conservatives in Canada ever since 2016, really, when I sort of burst onto the scene in my opposition to Bill C-16.

01:14:15.640 You know, and the conservatives that I talked to eight years ago were much more timid bunch than the conservatives that are emerging in Canada now.

01:14:26.900 And so, Poliev and Daniel Smith, they're both tough people.

01:14:30.980 And so, that's heartening as far as I'm concerned.

01:14:34.360 Whether Poliev is in a position to right the ship that Trudeau has inverted, that's a whole different question.

01:14:41.880 I mean, I wish him well, but I'm also pleased in a, what would you say, personal sense that I don't have his job.

01:14:49.800 Because, like, I mean, I look at Canada with a kind of horror at the moment, because we are in very bad shape economically.

01:14:58.060 And, I mean, just the fact that just, Canadians now make 60% as much as the average American.

01:15:05.700 And our real estate is twice as expensive.

01:15:07.560 Yeah, and the trajectory is downward, right?

01:15:10.900 And I think it was, what, with World, was it World Economic Forum or the World Bank?

01:15:15.560 I don't remember which agency.

01:15:17.800 Their projection for Canada was worst performing economy over the next 30 years in the G7.

01:15:23.080 Yeah.

01:15:23.300 Right?

01:15:23.500 Well, and that's on top of the fact, that's adjacent to the fact that if Canada had its act together in anything approximating a realistic manner, at least the West could be rich beyond belief.

01:15:35.540 Because it's definitely the case that the world is dying, fighting for our natural resources.

01:15:42.340 And, I mean, you saw the fact that the German Chancellor and the Japanese Prime Minister came cap and hand to Trudeau and said,

01:15:48.600 How about some natural gas for your friends there, buddy?

01:15:52.280 And his argument was, I can't make a business case for that.

01:15:56.580 And the thing is, that was before Canadians re-elected him.

01:16:00.040 And they just re-elected the NDP in British Columbia.

01:16:03.620 And so I look at Canada and I think, we're in serious trouble and we have by no means even begun to learn our lesson.

01:16:10.560 And that's a relatively terrifying prospect.

01:16:12.400 Be very, very careful when you use the term we.

01:16:16.440 Only 20% of Canadians voted for Trudeau in the last election.

01:16:21.320 He hasn't gained anything.

01:16:22.800 He's lost a lot.

01:16:24.120 Yeah.

01:16:27.160 I think a lot of people are scared of the unknown.

01:16:29.920 I think they're willing to, you know, step out into the cool and the dark.

01:16:34.380 But there are still people who will not vote for, vote conservative.

01:16:39.020 Fair play.

01:16:39.840 It doesn't really matter.

01:16:41.360 We're going to see an absolute rout of the Liberals in the next election.

01:16:46.240 One of the things we haven't even discussed is the rise of the independentist in Quebec, the Bloc.

01:16:54.540 And it does.

01:16:55.780 Because there's another dimension of complexity that tears Canada apart.

01:16:59.400 Which, Canada's in such bad shape that when we're talking about threats to Canada.

01:17:03.800 We didn't even mention it.

01:17:04.520 We didn't even mention the separatists.

01:17:06.820 Yeah.

01:17:07.060 Yeah, right.

01:17:07.940 So that's a very real possibility.

01:17:10.420 Although one of the things that's interesting about Quebec is that all of these things that bedevil us 1.00

01:17:15.580 and our, you know, increasingly bourgeois sensitivities about race and gender and Quebecers aren't phased.

01:17:24.640 Meh.

01:17:25.200 They don't care.

01:17:26.420 They do not care.

01:17:28.520 In Quebec, in the French, you know, poor land Quebecers. 1.00

01:17:33.800 Um, they, uh, they're not woke.

01:17:37.840 The left in Quebec is not woke.

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01:18:58.880 And that I find fascinating.

01:19:00.900 I think they have a real sense of themselves.

01:19:02.780 A lot of it doesn't really, you know, their idea of, you know, extreme secularism doesn't sit well with me.

01:19:09.760 But what the hell?

01:19:10.980 They seem to know what they're about. 0.50

01:19:13.780 And, yeah, I mean, I...

01:19:16.240 Well, the Canadian, or the Quebec independence movement would never regard itself as post-national.

01:19:23.580 Exactly.

01:19:24.040 Right.

01:19:24.420 I mean, far from it.

01:19:25.960 Far from it.

01:19:27.240 There's also an argument that I've heard that a lot of young Quebecers, they don't remember back in the day.

01:19:31.920 They don't remember the old days.

01:19:33.380 They're not, you know, they're not interested in separatism.

01:19:36.900 Yeah.

01:19:37.200 You know.

01:19:37.760 So, who knows?

01:19:38.820 Who knows?

01:19:39.420 But it does add a layer of complexity to this that...

01:19:43.020 Okay.

01:19:43.580 So, now, why did you feel compelled to shed light on rising anti-Semitism?

01:19:50.260 Why is that something...

01:19:52.120 Like, you talked about a lot of things today that could have occupied your attention and obviously have.

01:19:57.960 Now, you and Barry at the Free Press put a lot of time and effort into this particular article, and it's a pretty hard-hitting article, and it's quite distressing, if you have any sense at all.

01:20:09.220 So, why is it the phenomenon of rising anti-Semitism, or is it even anti-Semitism?

01:20:14.960 Is it the dominance of the pro-Hamas movement?

01:20:18.080 Is it the rise of the radical left?

01:20:20.400 Is it like...

01:20:21.340 Where...

01:20:23.060 Why did you focus on anti-Semitism, per se, given the range of your concerns about Canada?

01:20:28.720 Why did you bring that to international attention, let's say?

01:20:31.780 Because the Jews are terrified.

01:20:34.160 Because the Jews are persecuted in this country.

01:20:37.780 Okay, now, and do you see that as a canary in a coal mine phenomenon?

01:20:41.260 Yeah, you could put it that way.

01:20:41.740 I know you said that that's not all of it, and fair enough.

01:20:44.060 Yeah, you could put it that way.

01:20:45.920 I think it would be of concern to me, even if they were not the canary in the coal mine.

01:20:52.100 Yeah, that's...

01:20:52.540 I mean, if it's a personal question, you know, it's an odd thing.

01:20:56.220 I mean, it's a family thing.

01:20:58.840 My association with the Jewish community goes back a long way.

01:21:01.740 I'm a tag.

01:21:02.740 I'm Irish Catholic.

01:21:04.380 Yeah.

01:21:05.000 But it's complicated.

01:21:06.240 And it is a concern of mine and the company that I keep.

01:21:11.940 And...

01:21:12.440 But it's such a terrible state on Canada's reputation, too.

01:21:13.940 The same thing is when you talk to old Jews, right? 1.00

01:21:16.320 Like, really sophisticated guys who've been in and out of office or university professors.

01:21:21.160 And they will tell you, you know, with their voice cracking,

01:21:24.040 I have never seen anything like this in my life.

01:21:28.520 Yeah, right.

01:21:29.260 I feel exactly the same way.

01:21:30.840 You know, all the communities I talk to, the Hillel on campus, you know, synagogues across the country,

01:21:36.460 people are afraid.

01:21:38.340 And they feel abandoned.

01:21:40.500 And they feel as though their government has abandoned them.

01:21:46.020 Yeah, well, they made a calculated decision.

01:21:47.300 This is worth noticing.

01:21:49.560 And what am I?

01:21:50.400 I'm just a guy.

01:21:51.000 I'm a reporter.

01:21:51.660 I'm a writer.

01:21:52.700 So I've done my best to document this and to bear witness to it.

01:21:58.440 And I don't know what's going to come of it.

01:22:01.600 Tell me.

01:22:01.980 I'm here talking to you about it.

01:22:03.200 There you go.

01:22:03.760 Yeah, yeah.

01:22:04.360 Well, tell me.

01:22:05.220 It's funny, you know, because I read your article, because I follow the free press,

01:22:08.980 and I've had some dealings with Barry Weiss and positive dealings with Barry Weiss,

01:22:13.540 complex, but positive dealings with Barry Weiss.

01:22:16.320 And I read your article and I thought, I should probably talk to Terry about this article

01:22:20.000 and maybe Barry too.

01:22:22.600 And then like four hours later, she wrote me and she said,

01:22:25.260 you know, I really think you should talk to Terry about this article.

01:22:27.540 And so, you know, that was propitious, as was the fact that I'm out on the West Coast here,

01:22:32.320 so I can talk to you directly.

01:22:34.040 Yeah, that was funny the way that happened.

01:22:35.720 And I said, oh, you know, Jordan Peterson, he's like one of these big forehead guys.

01:22:38.920 Everybody likes him.

01:22:39.720 You know, Barry, Barry, you talk to him, Barry.

01:22:42.520 And, you know, he's great, but, you know, we meet up with him in New York or wherever.

01:22:46.800 And then Barry said, well, actually, he's on Vancouver Island.

01:22:49.740 Okay, that's only like three hours from where I am.

01:22:52.040 So that's how it happened.

01:22:54.160 Yeah, well, I'm shocked by what's happened to Canada.

01:22:57.780 I mean, one of the precipitating factors in my recent move to the United States was Bill C-63.

01:23:04.300 I don't know if you've managed to delve into the weeds with regards to Bill C-63.

01:23:09.860 But it's a bill that's so awful that every time I read it, I think, because I'm not a lawyer, you know,

01:23:17.300 I think there's no way I'm understanding this properly, you know.

01:23:20.980 And then I read it again and I think, yeah, well, you know, usually I can understand what I'm reading.

01:23:25.780 And this is, I mean, it's such a dense web of stunning, incompetent malevolence because it starts with these pronouncements about protecting children from online exploitation and pornography.

01:23:39.920 Simultaneously, of course, the biggest pornography network in the world operates out of Canada, right?

01:23:45.380 That's Pornhub, which operates out of Montreal.

01:23:47.300 And to call it a despicable organization is to barely scrape the surface.

01:23:52.380 If Trudeau and his minions were the least bit serious about protecting children from online pornography, there's a lot better places they can start than Bill C-63.

01:24:01.260 But virtue signaling at the beginning, virtue signaling at the end, we're protecting children.

01:24:06.360 It's like, yeah, I don't think you are.

01:24:09.280 But then in the middle, there's all these clauses detailing out first the construction of a bureaucracy, which, as far as I can tell, would have unlimited power, all the power of the court and the power of unlimited growth.

01:24:23.560 And it says right in the bill that that court system, a new parallel court system, would not be bound by the traditional standards of evidence.

01:24:32.560 That's right.

01:24:33.000 I read that and I thought, what? 0.97

01:24:35.460 You know, here's the former director, I forgot his name, he's a lovely guy, the former chief commissioner of the Human Rights Commission, federal, said this is all, you know, it's horrible, it's ridiculous.

01:24:47.480 And I think they know damn well that there's absolutely no way that any of this will withstand a charter challenge.

01:24:54.820 And the point of this is, well, the point of this, and this is the case that he makes that I think is persuasive, is they're just trying to scare you.

01:25:02.920 They're just trying to shut you up.

01:25:04.420 They're just trying to put you on notice.

01:25:06.240 Well, they'd succeeded with me.

01:25:08.400 Well, you haven't shut up.

01:25:10.520 No, but I really thought through Bill C-63.

01:25:13.900 Like, I've already had my fair share of trouble with the Ontario College of Psychologists because they have weaponized, they have allowed activists to weaponize their complaint process.

01:25:25.680 And what could be done to be under the auspices of Bill C-63 make what happened with the college, who I've managed to successfully battle off so far, look like nothing.

01:25:37.140 Like, here's how what we've been discussing, particularly anti-Semitism, directly relates to this concern of yours in the matter of Bill C-63.

01:25:46.960 And it also directly relates to how I've been attacked for merely noticing that a lot of what we've heard about mass graves, this archipelago of mass graves across the country at residential schools, it's a fiction.

01:26:04.260 There is a proposal, and it's supported by the Justice Minister, Arif Farhani.

01:26:13.460 Yeah, he's fun.

01:26:14.920 He's fun.

01:26:15.140 He's a lot of fun.

01:26:16.420 He's everything you'd hope he'd be.

01:26:18.820 Insert a concept called residential schools denials.

01:26:22.380 Yeah, right.

01:26:22.880 Which is an absurd abstraction to insert it into the same section of the criminal code that outlaws incitement against the Jews by Holocaust.

01:26:38.640 Yeah, that's perfectly in keeping with the way they view it.

01:26:41.620 And this is all about just shutting people up.

01:26:43.420 It's all terrifying people.

01:26:44.500 Well, that's...

01:26:45.260 And the other one, and I think we didn't even talk about this, the most pernicious, is this recent construction of anti-Palestinian racism.

01:26:54.100 Yes.

01:26:55.760 That's hate speech.

01:26:57.320 Well, yeah.

01:26:58.100 But if you look at the definition of it, and again, you know, Trudeau says he's willing to adopt this in some form, as has the Justice Minister said the same.

01:27:08.100 The standard definition of anti-Palestinian racism devised by the Arab-Canadian Lawyers Association, which I've never heard of before, and I think this is all they've ever done, is any utterance of a conventional Zionist standpoint cannot but be understood as anti-Palestinian racism.

01:27:30.680 Right, right.

01:27:32.000 The way it's defined...

01:27:32.980 So that would include support for the fact of Israel's existence.

01:27:37.100 The mere support for the fact of Israel's existence as a Jewish sovereignty in the Holy Land.

01:27:43.100 That if you confront or deny or dispute the Palestinian narrative, if you dispute the Nakba, if you deny the right of Palestinians, their claim to title of all of historic Palestine, then you are engaging in anti-Palestinian racism.

01:28:03.300 In other words, then you're a Zionist. 0.85

01:28:05.100 Okay, so let's tie...

01:28:06.320 Of the mildest, of the mildest kind.

01:28:08.780 Let's tie that into Bill C-63.

01:28:10.880 Yeah, well, there it is.

01:28:11.940 Well, so in Bill C-63, there's a provision, which I've read several times, that if I am afraid, because that's the language in the bill, that Terry might utter something hateful in the next year,

01:28:27.780 so let's say that would be your support for the existence of Israel, then I can bring you in front of a provincial magistrate, and he can fit you with an electronic bracelet, and you can be confined to your home for a year.

01:28:41.280 And all of your social media posting will be disallowed, and whoever you see will be regulated, and, and this is something I just can't figure out at all.

01:28:50.280 It's so preposterous that it beggars belief.

01:28:53.960 You will be required to donate body fluid on a regular basis to your physician to have it monitored on a daily basis.

01:29:03.060 I wasn't aware of this one.

01:29:04.240 Absolutely, to make sure that you're not consuming anything illegal or anything intoxicated.

01:29:09.460 Now, I think what happens...

01:29:10.320 Okay, that is beyond the pale.

01:29:12.100 It's in there.

01:29:13.200 That is beyond the pale.

01:29:14.380 No Jameson's.

01:29:15.420 Yeah, well, I think, I think the reason is, I'm trying to figure out, where the hell did they get this?

01:29:20.460 But I think probably where they got it from was legislation on domestic abuse.

01:29:26.420 Okay.

01:29:26.740 Because if you want to protect, if you want to mitigate the probability of domestic abuse, limiting the abuser's alcohol consumption is actually a logical move.

01:29:35.660 I'm not claiming that on ethical or legal grounds.

01:29:38.080 I just mean that alcohol does increase the probability of abuse substantively.

01:29:42.540 And I can't imagine where else they would have got the idea, but that's in that bill in black and white.

01:29:48.340 So, so we have not only...

01:29:50.400 You see, I don't, I don't think, okay, apart from the fact that the liberals are history,

01:29:54.900 apart from the fact that Trudeau is a dead man walking, quite apart from all that,

01:30:00.000 I don't think there was any serious expectation that any of these laws, these initiatives would survive a charter challenge.

01:30:10.060 It's all about intimidation.

01:30:12.080 Think that was true with C-16?

01:30:13.500 It's all about intimidation.

01:30:14.980 And I think one of the things that our friends in Hong Kong, in the democracy movement, insisted upon was,

01:30:21.520 do not obey in advance.

01:30:23.060 Do not obey in advance.

01:30:26.460 Whatever they threaten you with, just say what you need to say and what you mean to say.

01:30:32.520 And bring it on.

01:30:33.980 Yeah.

01:30:34.520 Let's have you then.

01:30:36.020 Let's see the whites of your eyes.

01:30:38.240 And I think that's the position that we all have to adopt.

01:30:41.400 Yeah, well, it's hard to...

01:30:42.320 I think all of that stuff is going to...

01:30:44.740 It's gone.

01:30:46.060 It's in the dustbin of history.

01:30:48.980 Well, I'm hoping you're... 1.00

01:30:51.500 You're being foolish by running off to America. 0.99

01:30:54.080 Yeah, well, I have many other reasons for being there. 0.99

01:30:57.280 But, you see, I wonder about that.

01:31:01.720 Because my experience with the Ontario College of Psychologists, I would say, suggests otherwise.

01:31:06.760 Because none of my professional colleagues have, including physicians, with pretty much zero exception, have stood up publicly and said that what's happened to me is wrong.

01:31:19.200 And I know why.

01:31:19.700 Are they afraid?

01:31:20.200 Of course, they come to me privately.

01:31:23.200 And why are they afraid?

01:31:24.520 Well, it's very, very simple.

01:31:26.180 They're afraid because the professional colleges have unlimited power of regulation over the members of regulated professions, which is pretty much what my Supreme Court challenge denial indicated.

01:31:43.080 And if a professional is brought to task, let's say, by their professional college and loses their license, then they're terrified.

01:31:57.780 And I looked at C63 carefully, and it would produce a parallel bureaucracy, a bureaucracy that would regulate the speech and conduct of all Canadians in almost precisely the same way that the professional colleges regulate the speech and conduct of regulated professionals.

01:32:13.260 I don't think Canadians would stand up. 1.00

01:32:15.280 I've seen no evidence that they will.

01:32:17.020 So, now, I do understand that Trudeau's on his way out, and Canada could.

01:32:21.580 Well, I think Canadians would, but it's a very good question about whether or not the professional and managerial cast would.

01:32:28.380 Well, I think we've seen the answer to that question.

01:32:32.340 I'm not saying this with any, like, I'm not happy about this.

01:32:37.400 There's no pride in this.

01:32:38.480 I think it's appalling.

01:32:39.380 You know, and I've talked to many physicians in particular, because it's mostly physicians I've talked to who are terrified of the Ontario College of Physicians, for example, because they'll make their life.

01:32:51.080 I mean, this bloody court case, for me, has gone on eight years.

01:32:54.580 It's eight years.

01:32:55.920 It's cost me like $600,000.

01:32:58.520 And it's not like I'm winning.

01:33:02.320 Like, they can't take me out because I have independent sources of income and a reasonable public voice.

01:33:08.800 But you have to be in a pretty unique position to be able to withstand that sort of lawfare for that amount of time.

01:33:18.440 Like, I don't practice as a clinical psychologist anymore, and that became impossible in, like, 2017.

01:33:24.260 Just like being a professor became impossible.

01:33:26.960 So, like, these, the forces that can be brought to bear against you, if you dare open your mouth, are more than most people can or will bear.

01:33:35.600 And I can see why.

01:33:36.800 You know, I had three sources of income when I opposed Bill C-16, and I lost two of them.

01:33:43.720 Right.

01:33:44.240 The third one was entrepreneurial, and it was under my control.

01:33:47.480 But two was a lot, and three would have been, well, catastrophic.

01:33:52.240 And so, if you only have one, and that's your professional practice, well, it's not surprising that people are cowed and intimidated into silence.

01:34:00.820 And so, okay, well, we have to wrap up on the YouTube side, and I think what we'll do on the Daily Wire side is we'll continue our discussion about Canada.

01:34:11.520 And I'm curious about your thoughts about, well, the Conservatives under Pierre Polyev.

01:34:17.560 I want to know what you think about him.

01:34:19.620 I want, you said that you're, you know, habitually an optimist and that you're still optimistic about Canada in general.

01:34:26.000 And there are reasons to be optimistic.

01:34:27.460 I mean, Canada's a remarkable country, and the run-of-the-mill Canadian is a decent and law-abiding, orderly, trustworthy person.

01:34:37.600 And that's not trivial.

01:34:39.660 But there are some serious cracks in the foundation, more than I've ever seen in my lifetime, by a lot.

01:34:45.540 I mean, you named five of them.

01:34:47.140 And, you know, and as we said, we deprioritized the Quebec sovereignists, right?

01:34:51.620 So you can see how, and they've been a fundamental threat to Canadian integrity for like 40 years.

01:34:57.280 So on the Daily Wire side, let's turn our attention to Canada's future, dire and positive, you know, because we can flesh out both alternatives.

01:35:05.980 And I think for you international people who are listening, you know, the reason to be concerned about Canadian politics, which have actually become of some interest internationally in the last nine years, is because, like the Jews in Canada and in the U.S., maybe in the West worldwide, Canada is also a canary in the coal mine, because Justin Trudeau is a poster boy for the progressives worldwide.

01:35:28.940 And whatever strange political tangents we're meandering down in Canada are isomorphic with the political threats that exist in the U.K. and the United States, although now less to some degree, Australia, New Zealand, the West in general.

01:35:46.180 And so delving into what's happening here and how that might be rectified is a enterprise that might be worthwhile on the international front as well.

01:35:57.940 So join us on the Daily Wire side if you're inclined to do that.

01:36:01.300 Terry, thank you very much. It was a pleasure.

01:36:03.640 Yeah, really nice meeting you.

01:36:05.080 I suppose. Very nice to meet you, too.

01:36:06.660 Thank you very much.

01:36:07.420 Yeah, and I certainly appreciate the article in the Free Press.

01:36:12.280 You know, I've been writing about, what would you say, pathological group conflict for a very long period of time.

01:36:21.220 And it's a terrible thing to see it rear its head in Canada.

01:36:24.340 It's a terrible thing, and it's very useful to draw attention to it.

01:36:29.280 And you did that very effectively internationally, and it was very good at Barry to publish it as well.

01:36:33.560 And hopefully it'll clue more Canadians into what's going on and into the seriousness of that for the Jews, which is not trivial, as you pointed out, in and of itself,

01:36:44.780 but also as a bellwether for just exactly where we're headed.

01:36:50.640 All right, sir.

01:36:50.760 Grant, thank you very much.

01:36:52.100 You bet.

01:36:52.660 You bet.

01:36:53.020 Good talking to you.

01:36:53.660 God.

01:37:03.340 Yes.

01:37:04.220 Yes.

01:37:05.180 No.

01:37:05.480 No.

01:37:06.340 No.

01:37:06.940 No.

01:37:07.040 No.

01:37:07.420 No.

01:37:07.920 No.

01:37:09.380 No.

01:37:09.840 No.

01:37:10.040 No.

01:37:10.720 No.

01:37:10.900 No.

01:37:11.620 No.

01:37:11.960 No.

01:37:12.560 No.

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The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - December 19, 2024

508. Anti-Semitism and the Fall of Trudeau's Canada ｜ Terry Glavin

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