The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 519. If Another Country Did This to Our Citizens, It Would Be War ｜ Vani Hari

00:00:00.000 People are fat and diabetic at rates that are criminal.

00:00:03.700 38% of preteens ages 12 to 18 now being pre-diabetic when it used to be zero.

00:00:09.800 38%.

00:00:10.260 38%.

00:00:10.900 I don't think I ever recovered from reading about the fact that marketing people built the food pyramid, right?

00:00:17.040 Not scientists. How the hell did we get there?

00:00:19.700 There's this revolving door of people who are working for chemical and food corporations

00:00:24.480 and then going to serve in government to kind of uphold their interests.

00:00:28.120 Tell me what you know about the tobacco company's purchase of the food industry.

00:00:47.700 So I've been dragged kicking and screaming into the issue of nutrition, I would say.

00:00:54.000 And some of that's for personal reasons and some of it is for intellectual reasons, let's say.

00:01:02.400 I had reason in my own family to look at nutrition very carefully because it turned out that my daughter,

00:01:08.040 who had a very serious illness, Michaela, was reactive to a very large range of foods.

00:01:15.760 And that was rather a shock to discover, you might say.

00:01:20.940 And I've been experimenting with diet for quite a long time in a radical way, far more radically than I like.

00:01:28.560 That's the first thing and that I would have ever expected to do.

00:01:31.400 And that's had some pretty positive consequences.

00:01:34.360 And I've heard from many thousands of people positive tales about the consequence of their shift in diet.

00:01:44.220 And I've interviewed people like Chris Palmer, who's a psychiatrist at Harvard,

00:01:48.180 who's been using dietary manipulations to treat intractable psychological disorders.

00:01:55.120 And I know that people are fat and diabetic at rates that are criminal.

00:02:00.320 And so even though this isn't something I ever hoped I would be interested in, even that's become necessary.

00:02:07.900 Now, I went to Washington a while back at the invitation of Ron Johnson to partake in a hearing there.

00:02:15.880 And I met Vani Hari at that roundtable, at that discussion.

00:02:23.600 And I had a chance to talk to her today.

00:02:26.020 She's the food babe. 1.00

00:02:27.360 And she has a large following and is very interested in the pathologization of the American food system.

00:02:34.780 And for personal reasons, as well as professional reasons, let's say,

00:02:39.100 some of which are akin to the issues that my daughter faced.

00:02:44.040 And so she came in today and we had a chance to talk about, well, the hearing that we participated in jointly.

00:02:53.200 And then we talked about her career, how she moved from consultant to food activist and rekindled that more recently at this hearing.

00:03:05.320 And we walked through a discussion of the major problems that beset the American family, let's say, especially children.

00:03:16.340 Children and mothers, I would say, probably most are most effective, although men are not far behind for obvious reasons.

00:03:23.600 Made a chance to walk through all that and to start to puzzle out, well, the nature of the problem.

00:03:29.800 Tremendous rise in obesity, tremendous rise in diabetes, there's catastrophic consequences of the transformation of our food supply.

00:03:40.140 And we talked about that and we talked about what might be done about it.

00:03:43.960 And especially given the radical transformations that are upcoming in the new Trump administration.

00:03:49.940 And it's surprising synergy with this Make America Healthy Again movement. 0.99

00:03:56.180 So, if you don't want to be fat and stupid and diabetic, this is not a bad podcast to listen to. 0.99

00:04:04.860 So, Vanny, we met in D.C. 1.00

00:04:07.440 That's right.

00:04:08.120 Yeah.

00:04:08.420 So, why don't you talk about that event a bit and how you got invited and what you thought of it and why you were there.

00:04:16.960 Just tell the story.

00:04:18.140 Yeah, absolutely.

00:04:18.720 So, you know, I've been a food activist for many years, for over 10 years.

00:04:25.160 And I have been wanting to hold American food companies accountable for using ingredients that are banned or heavily regulated in other countries for a long time.

00:04:40.560 I think it's disgraceful.

00:04:42.280 I think it's unethical. 0.98

00:04:43.840 I think it is hypocritical.

00:04:45.920 I think it's immoral that an American food company can serve a better, safer version of their product for another country and not their own citizens.

00:04:58.100 And how, when they find out they can make a product that's safe, they don't do it for all of their customers.

00:05:06.860 And so, I've been working on this issue for a long time through petitions, through campaigns to get food companies to change because government regulators have been asleep at the wheel.

00:05:20.380 They haven't held these food companies to change because they haven't held these food companies accountable.

00:05:23.920 The conflicts of interest are riddled in the government that prevent them from enacting anything that would be helpful to safeguard ourselves from these chemicals.

00:05:36.000 And so, when I was invited to be part of the Senate roundtable with Senator Ron Johnson, at first I said no, actually, because for many years I've been off the scene.

00:05:51.820 I haven't been holding the food companies accountable in that big, bold way because I became a mom.

00:05:58.040 I started a food company to change the food industry from within.

00:06:02.560 I took kind of a backseat to this activist role because you could say my nurturing phase of my life became more important to safeguard my kids.

00:06:15.280 And when I was an activist and I hit the national level and the national stage, I was attacked.

00:06:21.860 I was attacked by the media. I was attacked by paid-for scientists. I was attacked by, quote-unquote, independent experts who were actually getting paid by the food industry.

00:06:33.960 And to the point where I had to have security when I went to go speak at universities.

00:06:39.520 I had people drive by my house. I had, you know, death threats, rape threats online.

00:06:45.500 So that work going up against a trillion-dollar industry kind of took a backseat when I became a mom.

00:06:51.280 When did you become a mom? 1.00

00:06:53.520 Almost eight years ago now.

00:06:54.860 How many kids do you have?

00:06:55.960 Two.

00:06:56.360 Two. Okay.

00:06:57.020 Yeah.

00:06:58.340 And so earlier this year, I was called upon to be part of this new kind of campaign to hold Big Food accountable.

00:07:10.380 And my friend, Jason Karp, who was also at the Senate hearing, called me and says,

00:07:15.620 Bonnie, this is something I really want to do. Let's get together and figure this out.

00:07:19.500 And then we got together with Callie Means as well.

00:07:22.820 And we started working together again.

00:07:25.340 And it was like my passion was reignited.

00:07:29.360 And I realized that we really have an opportunity at this point in time that I never thought was possible in my entire career with the emergence of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. taking these issues at the national level.

00:07:43.380 Yeah, what a strange thing to have happen, eh?

00:07:46.140 It wasn't anything that you'd predict in relationship to Trump.

00:07:49.140 Nothing.

00:07:49.800 Nothing like it.

00:07:50.340 It came out of the blue.

00:07:51.240 It's very weird.

00:07:52.340 It really did.

00:07:53.800 Yeah.

00:07:53.940 And, you know, for so much of my life, I was jaded about politics.

00:07:58.540 I, you know, I was a Democrat delegate for President Obama in 2008 and 2012.

00:08:07.800 I put him up on a pedestal.

00:08:09.600 I thought he was going to be the savior of our world.

00:08:13.080 And when he got into office, I quickly realized that special interests, lobbyists, corporations were controlling him and controlling the message and controlling what he could get done.

00:08:24.260 And then the two-party system itself allowed him not to get much done.

00:08:28.900 And so—

00:08:29.480 Yeah, well, it's not obvious how much power the president actually has, right?

00:08:33.520 Right.

00:08:34.440 Because the system is very complex and there's weird things wrong with it that aren't obvious at all until you understand them.

00:08:42.540 You know, like congressmen, this is something that just stunned me when I found it out.

00:08:47.760 Congressmen spend about 28 hours a week fundraising.

00:08:51.060 They can't do that in their own offices.

00:08:52.660 So they have these ratty offices in the outskirts of D.C.

00:08:55.960 They basically act like telemarketers.

00:08:58.340 That's a dismal way of spending your time.

00:09:01.240 So they're spending—and if they don't do that, they're not funded by their parties.

00:09:05.460 And then they spend a bunch of time campaigning because they have to be elected every two years.

00:09:09.620 And then they travel.

00:09:11.220 It's like they don't have any time to do their job.

00:09:13.440 And it isn't a job I would take, you know.

00:09:15.340 So that's a big problem.

00:09:17.400 Yeah.

00:09:17.680 And it's only one of a multitude of problems.

00:09:20.400 And, of course, the president's term is limited sometimes to four years.

00:09:26.020 And four years, you know, it takes two years just to figure out how to do a complicated job.

00:09:30.580 Yeah.

00:09:30.780 Two to three years.

00:09:32.020 So there's a lot of things that have gone sideways.

00:09:36.000 Okay.

00:09:36.180 So let's go into this—your past as a food activist.

00:09:41.560 Okay.

00:09:41.860 So why did you do that?

00:09:44.440 Like, how did that happen?

00:09:46.460 You could say it happened by accident because I was so wounded by the truth about the food industry when I was finding it out.

00:09:57.960 Like, you know, as a child, I grew up with two immigrant Indian parents who came to the United States.

00:10:03.440 And they were so trusting of the American food supply and the American way of life that my dad introduced my mom to a McDonald's hamburger.

00:10:13.060 It was the first thing he introduced her to when they had an arranged marriage and came back to the United States and said,

00:10:16.960 if we're going to live in America, we're going to eat like Americans. 0.99

00:10:19.760 And they lived in a very poverty-struck environment in India where it was hard to get food and hard for people to eat.

00:10:29.800 And so it suddenly became so easy, and it was cheap, and it was readily available to the point where, you know,

00:10:37.040 my parents thought it was great that you could go and get fast food very quick.

00:10:41.120 And they would give a free meal to you if you colored a drawing on Mother's Day and Father's Day.

00:10:46.540 I mean, I was there at McDonald's doing that every holiday so I could get the free meal.

00:10:51.560 And as a result, I had such terrible health issues, me and my brother.

00:10:57.640 I mean, in and out of doctor's offices on prescription drugs nonstop throughout my childhood.

00:11:06.360 Can I ask you what those were?

00:11:07.700 Sure, yeah.

00:11:09.280 Everything from three different medications to control my asthma, Singular, Adver, Aburrol.

00:11:15.380 So asthma was one of them?

00:11:16.740 Asthma was one of them. 0.99

00:11:17.860 Then to just control the situation when it would flare up, I'd be on prednisone.

00:11:21.880 I'd be on antibiotics three or four times a year.

00:11:25.900 Then there was the eczema medications, the costacorduroid on my, you know, the cream. 0.99

00:11:30.400 Then there was shots in my ass. 0.99

00:11:32.260 You know, I mean, all of the things that they had to deploy to just make me feel normal, right? 0.99

00:11:38.880 And I look back at my childhood, and I was walking around like a zombie.

00:11:46.020 I mean, I didn't feel motivated to go to school.

00:11:50.080 I didn't feel motivated to read.

00:11:52.360 Even though I had these two immigrant Indian parents that put a lot of emphasis on my academics because of where they were.

00:12:01.920 You know, my dad's a PhD.

00:12:03.380 My mom's a master.

00:12:04.500 So it was, they put a lot of emphasis on that.

00:12:07.380 So I think that's where I ended up going, where I went.

00:12:09.920 But I know I could have done so much better in my early career, in my early life as a student, as a young person, if I had not been subjected to that food.

00:12:25.880 And what made you determine or discover that your health problems as a child were food related?

00:12:33.100 In my early 20s, I hit rock bottom.

00:12:35.820 I was working for a big six consulting firm called Accenture.

00:12:40.340 They put me on the road on an expense account.

00:12:43.200 I was in this situation, again, where I'm outsourcing my food to the corporation this time instead of to America, right?

00:12:49.460 And it's nonstop wine and dine dinners, five-course meals.

00:12:56.520 I've never done anything like that before.

00:12:58.220 It was so exciting.

00:12:59.760 I just, you know, they would bring in droves of food, breakfast, lunch, and dinner, so that you would bill more hours to the client.

00:13:05.820 At these big banks, I was working.

00:13:08.520 And I hit rock bottom.

00:13:10.840 I became depressed.

00:13:12.340 I became overweight.

00:13:15.140 And I had appendicitis.

00:13:18.080 And when I went to the doctor the first time, the doctor said, oh, there's nothing wrong with you.

00:13:22.460 You can go bad.

00:13:23.040 Take some Advil.

00:13:24.680 And thankfully, my parents said, you know, something doesn't seem right.

00:13:27.460 You need to probably go see your regular doctor in the morning.

00:13:29.580 And when I did, he was like, you have appendicitis.

00:13:32.940 You need to have an emergency appendectomy right now.

00:13:35.920 It's going to burst.

00:13:37.460 And at that point, I went to see the surgeon, had my organ taken out of my body.

00:13:43.160 And this whole time, the doctors are saying to me, nobody needs their appendix.

00:13:49.660 Don't worry.

00:13:50.340 This is something routine.

00:13:51.580 You'll be fine.

00:13:52.440 You're going to survive.

00:13:53.200 They're trying to ease my parents' worries.

00:13:56.320 And something doesn't seem right, that God would give you an organ that you don't need, first of all.

00:14:01.580 Second of all, I started to question, first of all, why a young 22-year-old is in the hospital with this type of surgery.

00:14:12.320 How much weight had you gained?

00:14:14.000 Probably 30 or 40 pounds.

00:14:16.040 Okay.

00:14:16.460 So, yeah.

00:14:16.920 Yeah.

00:14:17.120 Right, right.

00:14:17.540 And it was that moment that I decided to take my health seriously.

00:14:25.080 And the first thing I did was research why you get appendicitis.

00:14:29.560 And I found out the reason you get appendicitis is because your body's inflamed and your digestive system has become inflamed.

00:14:35.780 And actually, your appendix is there for a reason.

00:14:37.600 It actually populates your gut with good bacteria.

00:14:39.200 Right, right, right.

00:14:41.000 Yeah, it's a reservoir, right?

00:14:42.340 Yeah.

00:14:42.640 And so, I started to discover all these things about my body and about the human body that I couldn't stop learning about.

00:14:50.500 And I started to channel this.

00:14:51.460 What was your educational background?

00:14:53.320 So, I was a, I have a bachelor of science in computer science.

00:14:58.660 Oh.

00:14:59.260 But in high school, I was a top-tier debater.

00:15:05.000 I got recruited to college to be in debate.

00:15:07.100 I was number one in state three years in a row.

00:15:09.680 And.

00:15:10.380 Is that why you got hired as a consultant?

00:15:12.640 Did you do well in university as well?

00:15:14.460 I did.

00:15:15.460 Because it's hard to get hired as a consultant.

00:15:17.080 It is.

00:15:17.520 It is very hard.

00:15:18.420 But I think my debate skills are probably what allowed me to do that.

00:15:22.540 Okay, got it.

00:15:22.720 Because I interview well.

00:15:24.180 Yeah, yeah.

00:15:24.680 So, but back then we didn't have Google.

00:15:27.120 We had to go to the library and we had to look at the microfiche and carry these big tubs of evidence around and photocopy evidence to take.

00:15:34.740 And you'd have to learn both sides of the argument, affirmative and negative.

00:15:37.260 So, you learned to see the world in a whole view through these topics and debate.

00:15:43.760 And so, one year's topic, what happened to be healthcare when I was in high school, I never applied anything I learned to it to my own body.

00:15:49.280 But then it suddenly came rushing back.

00:15:51.480 And so, I started to check out these big books on nutrition.

00:15:55.240 And one of these early books that I read was called Conscious Eating.

00:16:00.140 And in there, he talked about how the majority of foods in the grocery store shelves are dead.

00:16:05.340 And I was like, that's how I felt most of my life is dead.

00:16:08.260 You mean like the whole center of the grocery store?

00:16:10.820 Yeah, the whole center of the grocery store.

00:16:13.840 I don't think I ever recovered from reading about the food pyramid.

00:16:18.900 Yeah.

00:16:19.340 Really?

00:16:20.120 It was like, really?

00:16:21.840 No way.

00:16:22.820 Not possible.

00:16:23.880 That it was a marketing lie from beginning to end.

00:16:30.620 You know, when you first started talking, I thought, you know, I have qualms about activism as an entity.

00:16:38.760 And there's a lot of, like, nutrition is such a complicated topic.

00:16:43.760 It's like, there's so many ways this can go wrong.

00:16:46.860 Why are we concerned about it?

00:16:48.260 And then I think, people are so overweight.

00:16:51.760 They're so diabetic.

00:16:53.200 Like, it's really bad.

00:16:55.940 You know, you see on, if you go on X now, you see these videos of people on the beach in the 1960s.

00:17:02.040 Now, people smoke, too.

00:17:03.420 But regardless of that, like, when I was a kid, there was, like, one kid who was plump in our class.

00:17:10.360 And we thought he was fat.

00:17:11.600 And, like, he would be well within the normal range now.

00:17:15.800 And so something, yeah, I went home to my hometown, Fairview, last Christmas.

00:17:23.120 And I went to see a hockey game, 17-year-old hockey players, you know.

00:17:27.920 Hockey players are in pretty good shape.

00:17:29.460 Hockey's a hard game.

00:17:30.440 It's very aerobically demanding.

00:17:32.160 And after the game, the guys invited me into the dressing room to talk because they knew me and knew who I was.

00:17:41.720 And so I went in and I saw three or four of them without shirts on.

00:17:45.000 And I thought, Jesus Christ, you guys, you look like 45-year-old men, you know, like breasts, guts. 0.98

00:17:52.220 It's like no one that I knew looked like that when I was 17, certainly not the bloody hockey players. 0.82

00:17:58.160 And I thought, man, if the hockey players look like that, what do the rest of the kids look like?

00:18:02.360 So something's gone seriously sideways.

00:18:05.880 Okay, so you suffered from all sorts of health complications when you were a kid and then a young adult.

00:18:10.840 So that's very reminiscent of my daughter, by the way, as you know.

00:18:13.940 And you started preusing the scientific literature.

00:18:17.340 You had a little bit of background in that because of your preparation as a debater.

00:18:22.420 And so you had to teach yourself at least to some degree to think like a scientist, which is to contrast the evidence, to learn to read the journals as well, which is not a simple matter.

00:18:32.580 Most scientists can't read the journals.

00:18:34.520 So, yeah, okay, okay.

00:18:36.300 And so, and then you had this bout with appendicitis.

00:18:39.500 And so, okay, let's continue on from there.

00:18:42.360 So, you know, I continued working on in the corporate world.

00:18:45.640 And I remember having this really terrible boss.

00:18:48.380 And he was.

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00:19:46.440 So bad that I started not being able to sleep at night.

00:19:53.320 I started to get very fearful of, you know, just going to work, and it was becoming an issue.

00:20:00.580 He was very aggressive, and in the way he not only managed his employees, but treated me in general.

00:20:11.660 You know, it was very misogynistic, if you will, and so I started to feel like kind of this situation where I suddenly just stopped sleeping.

00:20:25.740 So I went to the doctor, and I just remember this moment because I sat in her, you know, she was my internist, and I sat on the table, and I told her, I was like, you know, I just can't sleep.

00:20:35.800 I have a lot of stress at work, and she just asked me, like, kind of what's happening, and she goes, oh, okay, this is what you need.

00:20:41.140 You need Ambien, you need Xanax, and you need, starts with a C, it's an antidepressant, starts with a C, I can't remember the name of it.

00:20:53.280 But, and I said, wait a minute, like, really, like these, you want me to take these three drugs?

00:21:00.660 And I was so trusting of my doctor and so trusting of the medical system that I took those drugs to get through that time period when she should have just been saying, hey, Vani, why don't you quit your job?

00:21:16.140 You're 25 years old.

00:21:18.220 Like, why don't you quit your job, right?

00:21:20.440 Why don't you go look for another job?

00:21:21.680 You don't need to take this mistreatment from this dude because you're making a big paycheck.

00:21:25.340 Like, go find another job, right?

00:21:28.860 But this is kind of where I think the rubber meets the road for me when I was going through that period because that's really where my—

00:21:37.340 Symbalta?

00:21:38.840 Symbalta.

00:21:39.420 That's it.

00:21:39.840 Thank you.

00:21:40.900 I was like, it starts with a C.

00:21:42.760 Symbalta, yeah.

00:21:43.540 And it was around that time where I said, I don't need to be on these drugs.

00:21:51.320 They were, first of all, making me completely numb and crazy, right?

00:21:55.860 I wasn't—I suddenly was laying on the couch all day not doing anything, right?

00:22:01.420 And it was that moment that I just said, you know, these drugs aren't for me.

00:22:04.760 I need to get off these drugs, but I don't know how to do it.

00:22:06.980 I found an integrative psychiatrist that also practices acupuncture, and she helped me get off of it.

00:22:15.060 And I started learning about natural foods, and I started learning about real food.

00:22:20.660 And I started learning about food in a way that I had never known before in terms of—

00:22:28.980 And I started looking at ingredient labels of things that I had been eating most of my life,

00:22:35.620 and I became horrified because I realized that they were man-made chemicals invented for one sole purpose,

00:22:44.700 which was to improve the bottom line of the food industry, not improve my health.

00:22:50.160 And so I was eating this, like, science experiment.

00:22:53.900 No wonder I didn't feel good, right?

00:22:56.040 And I had gained the weight and ended up in the hospital with appendicitis,

00:22:59.060 but also didn't even have any other mechanism to get through a stressful time.

00:23:05.580 The only option I was given from my doctor was,

00:23:08.580 here you go is, you know, all of these different, you know, brain-altering medications.

00:23:15.480 And it wasn't until I made the connection that you can actually get through stressful times

00:23:21.440 through meditation, through sleeping well, through, you know, eating well,

00:23:26.760 from getting off of processed foods that actually make it very hard to think clearly.

00:23:32.620 And as soon as I changed my diet from a processed food diet to a real food diet,

00:23:39.120 things from earth—basic meats, cheeses, fruits, vegetables, nuts, and seeds—

00:23:45.280 when I did that, everything changed.

00:23:47.640 I lost all the weight.

00:23:49.600 I went off nine prescription drugs.

00:23:52.340 I started to look completely different to the point where my friends and my family around me

00:23:58.420 couldn't believe the remarkable transformation to the point where one of my aunts joked with one of my cousins,

00:24:04.900 did she have some work done?

00:24:06.880 Like, and—

00:24:08.160 How long did that take?

00:24:10.660 It took a period of two to three years.

00:24:13.800 Yeah, two to three years.

00:24:15.700 And a lot of trial and error, too.

00:24:18.120 Yeah.

00:24:19.120 Of, oh, I thought this was healthy and this isn't.

00:24:21.980 You know, and there were so many time periods where, you know,

00:24:24.520 I wouldn't eat a McDonald's hamburger anymore, but I'd go to Subway

00:24:27.620 because it was, quote-unquote, eat fresh.

00:24:29.940 Mm-hmm.

00:24:30.320 Right?

00:24:31.140 And then I found out Subway's bread had close to 50 ingredients,

00:24:34.880 an ingredient in there called azodicarbonamide that you find in yoga mats and shoe rubber,

00:24:39.360 and they don't use it in—

00:24:41.440 It can be good if you prepare them for it.

00:24:43.920 You know, they don't use it in Singapore and Europe and Australia and everywhere else,

00:24:48.640 but they use it here in the United States.

00:24:50.060 Like, what is this chemical doing in our bread?

00:24:52.480 Oh, when you—

00:24:53.080 Why do they do that?

00:24:54.120 I mean, if—I mean, look, Europe is very over-regulated, right?

00:24:59.160 In many, many ways.

00:25:00.160 Yeah.

00:25:00.360 And America is less so, and it's much more competitive.

00:25:03.680 Right.

00:25:04.160 And so excess regulation can really be a problem.

00:25:06.660 And now I know that has to be differentiated, and I'm not taking issue with the case that

00:25:11.380 you're making, but I'm also curious.

00:25:12.920 It's like, if they're selling these products in Europe and in Canada, and they're free of,

00:25:19.340 what would you say, chemicals that people have—whose utility people have questioned

00:25:24.440 elsewhere, why do they continue to do it in the U.S.?

00:25:28.640 Like, what difference does it make, fundamentally?

00:25:31.160 Fundamentally, for the food companies, it makes them more money because it's cheaper

00:25:35.020 to use a chemical additive made from petroleum or coal tar or some other substance than to

00:25:40.120 eat real food.

00:25:41.680 And the reason why it's cheaper for them to do that is because it doesn't break down

00:25:45.940 over time.

00:25:46.200 So you think it's just a matter of—

00:25:48.160 Economics.

00:25:48.780 It's just a matter of economics.

00:25:50.200 Yeah.

00:25:50.500 I mean, it's economics because it allows them to keep that bread there longer at every subway

00:25:56.180 around the block, right?

00:25:57.920 It allows them to have that uniformity of that product as well, which is what fast food

00:26:03.660 tends to do, which is you want that same product every single time, and you want it to taste

00:26:08.840 the same every single time, no matter who's making it.

00:26:11.320 Yes.

00:26:11.760 Well, and there's also utility in producing food that doesn't spoil, as long as you

00:26:15.240 don't poison it, because spoiled food is also poisonous.

00:26:18.420 So it's not like this is simple.

00:26:20.100 Like, I've had a lot of mixed feelings about all of this because, as you pointed out too,

00:26:25.380 when your parents immigrated to the U.S., there was the immense advantage of free and

00:26:30.400 abundant calories—or cheap and abundant calories.

00:26:33.260 And that's not nothing.

00:26:35.360 Like, not starving is a very good thing.

00:26:37.760 Now, not starving and becoming obese and diabetic, well, that's not an optimal solution.

00:26:43.780 And that's definitely happened too.

00:26:45.520 I mean, I was shocked 25 years ago when I drove across the U.S., especially in the northern

00:26:51.940 states, in the more rural areas.

00:26:53.820 God, you know, we'd go into towns where—and into little shops when we were driving across—where

00:26:59.420 Tammy would be the smallest person by a lot, including the nine-year-olds, you know?

00:27:04.660 It was just unbelievable.

00:27:06.040 And so I could tell at that point that something was off, and it's got much worse since then.

00:27:12.280 But these problems are so complicated because it is necessary for the fast food companies

00:27:18.080 to produce something approximating a uniform product and to work against spoilage.

00:27:24.040 And there is the complex problem of over-regulation that plagues the Europeans, that's for sure.

00:27:29.740 And—but when I look at it, you know, I try to look at the most important data first.

00:27:36.960 So when I look at the climate change problem, for example, I think the planet is 20% greener

00:27:42.040 than it was 20 years ago.

00:27:44.140 That's like, that's this data point.

00:27:45.960 All the other data points are this big.

00:27:47.720 You just ignore them.

00:27:48.760 It's like, no, semi-arid areas have got much greener.

00:27:54.100 That's the end of the argument, as far as I'm concerned.

00:27:56.380 And then with the health thing, it's like, well, everybody's fat and diabetic.

00:28:01.620 Everybody, virtually.

00:28:02.900 You know, for example, this is a terrible thing.

00:28:05.360 So, you know, when they measure your blood sugar, they adjust the blood sugar norms by age.

00:28:11.420 Yeah.

00:28:12.080 Well, this is a terrible thing because it means that when you're 40 and you get your blood

00:28:16.200 sugar tested, you're normal.

00:28:17.960 But if you were 20, you'd be diabetic.

00:28:19.760 So what does that mean?

00:28:20.760 It means you're diabetic.

00:28:22.980 Yeah.

00:28:23.380 Right, because you shouldn't age norm that particular measurement.

00:28:28.540 And so that's terrible.

00:28:29.720 And if you, and you undoubtedly do know, insulin resistance is a disaster and too much sugar

00:28:36.400 is really hard on people.

00:28:38.440 That's why diabetics lose their limbs. 0.99

00:28:41.560 It's really bad.

00:28:42.640 It's really hard on your brain.

00:28:44.320 Yeah.

00:28:44.600 And so this is definitely bad.

00:28:46.860 And then, you know, I came to all this kicking and screaming to some degree because I always

00:28:51.600 thought that people who were concerned about food, over-concerned about it, were neurotic

00:28:56.540 and really needed to find something better to do.

00:28:59.940 But when I saw the rising rates of diabetes and obesity, and then also learned about the

00:29:09.680 food pyramid, it's like, oh, I see.

00:29:11.340 This is a complete bloody catastrophe and a real, like a rat's nest and a Pandora's box.

00:29:17.000 And well, you found that out when you were in your 20s.

00:29:19.640 All right.

00:29:20.000 So what did you conclude?

00:29:21.160 Like, what did you just, you changed your diet and then that's a personal thing.

00:29:26.360 Yeah.

00:29:26.900 Yeah.

00:29:27.040 And so then I couldn't shut up about everything that I was learning.

00:29:30.620 Right.

00:29:31.160 So my friend.

00:29:32.120 Well, you're a debater and extroverted.

00:29:33.620 So that's not surprising.

00:29:34.620 So I started a blog and I wanted to call it eathealthyliveforever.com.

00:29:40.560 And my husband, who's the tech geek in the family, thought that was a terrible name.

00:29:44.080 And so he said, he found on auction a few minutes later, Food Babe for $10.

00:29:50.600 And at first I didn't want to call it Food Babe because it felt kind of foreign.

00:29:54.300 Like, I didn't feel like a Food Babe for most of my life.

00:29:57.140 Right, right.

00:29:58.000 But I said, you know, why don't we teach people to become a Food Babe? 0.99

00:30:00.840 Like, how to be a Food Babe.

00:30:02.560 And so-

00:30:02.800 Yeah, it's got a catchiness.

00:30:03.780 It's funny with marketing.

00:30:05.240 It's a tricky thing, right?

00:30:06.300 Because Food Babe has the, it's a, what would you say? 0.77

00:30:11.120 It isn't a serious name, but-

00:30:15.400 But it makes people uncomfortable in some settings, which I find so interesting.

00:30:19.300 And maybe you can comment on that because it's really interesting that it makes people uncomfortable.

00:30:24.800 Okay.

00:30:25.380 Like Senator Ron Johnson, for example, like when he announced, you know, that I was about to give my testimony.

00:30:30.680 Yeah.

00:30:30.840 He's like, I didn't come up with the name Food Babe, right?

00:30:33.260 He just, he didn't want to take responsibility for it.

00:30:37.400 Yeah.

00:30:37.820 Well, I think it has the advantage of popular appeal and the disadvantage that it isn't a

00:30:43.580 serious name.

00:30:44.380 And so those are competing advantages and disadvantages.

00:30:47.640 Obviously, it worked.

00:30:49.920 And there's no sense talking unless people are listening.

00:30:52.760 And of course, that's always the marketing conundrum.

00:30:54.820 So, you know, I don't have anything more to say about it than that.

00:30:57.660 So, okay.

00:30:58.260 So that's what you started.

00:30:59.460 And you started blogging.

00:31:01.180 That's right.

00:31:01.700 Yeah.

00:31:01.880 And, and so.

00:31:03.160 Where?

00:31:03.800 On what platform?

00:31:05.060 WordPress.

00:31:06.100 Oh, yeah.

00:31:06.540 Okay.

00:31:06.740 On WordPress.

00:31:06.980 And so when was that?

00:31:08.400 In 2011.

00:31:10.740 Okay.

00:31:11.100 So you're an early blogger.

00:31:12.420 Relatively early.

00:31:13.080 And I gave up television to find time to blog outside work.

00:31:16.620 So.

00:31:17.200 You gave up watching television.

00:31:18.140 Yeah.

00:31:18.340 Gave up watching television.

00:31:20.060 That's an interesting comment.

00:31:21.660 Yeah.

00:31:22.040 You know, for everybody watching and listening, you know, if you're looking for time to do

00:31:26.000 something that you want to do, you can always give up something that's not particularly

00:31:29.180 useful that you are doing regularly.

00:31:31.900 And that giving up TV, that was probably good for you too.

00:31:35.760 Oh, it was great.

00:31:36.580 It was the best thing I ever did.

00:31:38.020 So I found time to research and write.

00:31:40.600 And I started to just have this insatiable curiosity about all the things that I was eating

00:31:46.340 and then looking at the ingredients and posting the ingredients for people to see what they

00:31:51.460 were eating.

00:31:52.040 And my friends and my family, like my mom and my few friends that wanted to read my blog

00:31:55.660 at the time, but it started to reach a wider community.

00:31:59.560 And I realized there's other people out there looking for this information on what they were

00:32:04.180 eating.

00:32:04.580 And there was a food movement starting.

00:32:06.940 And it was probably when I wrote the article, Chemical Filet or Chick-fil-A that went viral

00:32:13.980 and Chick-fil-A invited me to their headquarters to consult on their menu changes and ingredient

00:32:19.000 changes that I finally made the decision.

00:32:22.440 Why did they do that?

00:32:25.960 They were smart.

00:32:27.440 They were smart.

00:32:28.440 They rolled out the red carpet.

00:32:29.640 They picked me up in a cow wrapped car. 0.96

00:32:31.920 They were really smart to try to make friends with me.

00:32:37.720 More food industry executives should hear that message because the reason why Kellogg's

00:32:45.480 is suffering so bad right now is because they wouldn't let us in, right?

00:32:49.440 We just recently went to their headquarters with over 400,000 signatures to get artificial

00:32:54.480 food dyes and a preservative called BHT that's linked to cancer out of their cereals.

00:33:00.380 And they wouldn't let us in.

00:33:02.280 They wouldn't even sit down with us to take the petitions in person.

00:33:05.700 So what is that going to do to activists?

00:33:08.120 It's going to rile us up.

00:33:09.200 It's going to make us mad.

00:33:10.500 It's going to make us go harder.

00:33:11.520 And we started a national boycott.

00:33:12.980 And now Fruit Loops is down 54% in the last 12 weeks on grocery store shelves.

00:33:18.080 And their stock price is down.

00:33:20.160 And they're going to-

00:33:20.920 I've got to say, Fruit Loops should be down.

00:33:23.380 No, seriously.

00:33:24.720 Well, of course, right?

00:33:25.760 I knew that was not a good food when I was like four.

00:33:28.600 Right.

00:33:28.840 I'd like, so Fruit Loops were fine, but really?

00:33:32.220 The reason Fruit Loops is such a good example, they already make other cereals without these

00:33:39.660 additives for virtually everywhere else.

00:33:42.100 Canada, Australia, Europe, India, you know, everywhere almost.

00:33:47.180 And this has got to stop across the board.

00:33:49.080 And so Kellogg's is one example of a larger problem.

00:33:52.660 Are you concerned with Fruit Loops, for example?

00:33:54.140 Like, are you concerned about the fact that it's basically sugar?

00:34:00.100 I mean, it's not-

00:34:00.700 Are you concerned more about the-

00:34:02.040 I'm concerned, number one, I think the main concern I have with Fruit Loops is I don't

00:34:09.560 want anyone to ever eat it again.

00:34:11.100 Right?

00:34:11.500 Okay.

00:34:12.080 Well, that's a major concern.

00:34:13.360 Right?

00:34:13.560 But what is it about Fruit Loops, particularly, that if you have to focus on what you think

00:34:19.280 isn't acceptable, what aspect of it is?

00:34:21.480 You talked about the chemicals, but it's also a highly processed carbohydrate.

00:34:25.600 That's right.

00:34:25.940 It's radically sugar loaded.

00:34:29.040 And targeted towards little children.

00:34:30.940 And the biggest profit generator for Fruit Loops is actually in U.S. schools, in schools.

00:34:40.820 Oh, yes.

00:34:41.720 I see.

00:34:42.420 So it's being sold to schools and served for breakfast to our little children.

00:34:46.780 And then it has chemicals in it that affect their brains.

00:34:49.860 It causes hyperactivity.

00:34:51.500 In Europe, you have a cigarette-type warning label on any product that has artificial food

00:34:56.100 dyes that warns parents that says may cause adverse effects on activity and attention in

00:35:00.040 children.

00:35:00.600 In Europe, parents get to know, have full informed consent on a product.

00:35:06.220 Here in the United States, we don't have that.

00:35:08.880 Right?

00:35:09.060 We allow our companies to just put these poisons in our food when they've already reformulated

00:35:14.620 them better for other countries.

00:35:16.020 And then on top of it, these carcinogens are made from petroleum and-

00:35:20.120 And these are the colorines?

00:35:21.200 These are the colorines.

00:35:22.420 That's correct.

00:35:22.620 Yeah.

00:35:23.240 And just the way that they are produced create all kinds of carcinogens and other problems,

00:35:28.920 immune response, allergies, other things in the human body, eczema.

00:35:32.500 So one of the things that I first did when I went through my transformation is I suddenly

00:35:38.360 gave up artificial food dyes.

00:35:39.660 I just said no artificial food dyes.

00:35:41.680 And just that alone helped me transition to a better, cleaner, healthier life because

00:35:47.560 the products that didn't contain artificial food dyes were few and none, right, at the

00:35:52.300 time.

00:35:52.660 Now, there's a whole other industry being created without a lot of these chemicals, which

00:35:57.500 is great.

00:35:58.280 You know, one being my company, Truvani, where we're creating products that are processed.

00:36:03.340 Like our bar is processed, but it's made with ingredients you would find in your own kitchen.

00:36:08.520 Dates, maple syrup, nuts, right?

00:36:10.880 And that's the kind of food we should be consuming and have available to the public to eat, not

00:36:18.500 food that is made with poisonous carcinogens that make, for example, like let's take yellow

00:36:26.020 number six that's in Cheetos.

00:36:28.020 Yellow number six, there's a new study that just came out.

00:36:30.320 Cheetos are very Froot Loops-like food.

00:36:33.620 It's like they're-

00:36:34.600 Yeah, but how many-

00:36:35.740 They stain your fingers.

00:36:37.400 They're terrible, but I grew up on them and so many children eat them.

00:36:40.640 And they're served in schools too.

00:36:42.040 Oh, yes.

00:36:42.580 Yes, and Doritos.

00:36:44.340 And so-

00:36:44.760 Oh, yeah.

00:36:45.120 Yeah, yeah.

00:36:45.900 They're a pretty sketchy item as well, all things considered.

00:36:50.240 But this is what we're eating.

00:36:53.040 You know, this is what kids are getting after their soccer match.

00:36:55.580 This is what is happening out there that's available whenever you go to a show or anywhere

00:36:59.780 else.

00:37:00.200 This is what people-

00:37:01.740 I mean, you go through the airport, that's what's available.

00:37:04.300 And if these are riddled with these carcinogens like yellow six, for example, that they just 1.00

00:37:09.800 showed that turn the skin of mice transparent.

00:37:14.700 Like, I can't make this up.

00:37:17.440 Like, this is horrifying what it's doing to animals in animal studies, but we allow ourselves

00:37:23.660 to continue to eat it.

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00:38:44.000 Diving into the scientific literature in relationship to nutrition is, it's just a rat's nest.

00:38:51.340 I mean, any clinical studies are, clinical studies are impossible, right?

00:38:55.680 I'm amazed that anyone ever does a clinical study on anything because it's so hard.

00:39:00.460 And then on the nutrition side, you have the problem of an immense number of variables,

00:39:06.640 right?

00:39:06.880 So most of the studies that you read that the press publicizes pick one variable among a

00:39:14.760 thousand and make the claim based on a correlation that, you know, X causes Y and the probability

00:39:21.740 of that is zero most of the time as far as I'm concerned, which is why there's been so

00:39:25.920 much rubbish published about nutrition.

00:39:27.660 How do you know that you're a bit, how do you know that you have any ability even to 0.86

00:39:33.400 parse the literature?

00:39:34.520 Like, I mean, I understand your claim and your claim is that, at least in part, that European

00:39:41.820 countries, Canada even, have taken a different approach to the regulation of extraneous chemicals,

00:39:47.980 colorings, for example, in food, and the U.S. is lagging behind that.

00:39:52.180 And that's, that's, that's an interpretation, but that's predicated on the idea that the

00:39:56.760 Europeans know more about what they're doing than, than Americans do.

00:40:01.620 Now, their obesity rates are quite markedly lower in Europe, which is very interesting,

00:40:06.100 right?

00:40:06.320 I mean, it's not obvious why either, because that's even true in places like Italy, where

00:40:11.160 the diet's pretty carbohydrate loaded.

00:40:13.360 And so it's, it's, it's, it's not easy to figure out exactly what's going on.

00:40:19.480 And so it's possible that the differences in food constituents are contributing to that.

00:40:24.460 How the hell you'd ever parse that out is beyond me.

00:40:26.980 But you seem relatively confident in your ability to separate the wheat from the chaff.

00:40:31.640 And I'm kind of wondering, like, why?

00:40:33.320 Because it's, it's really hard.

00:40:34.860 It is really hard, but I don't think nutrition has to be rocket science either.

00:40:40.760 Like, I don't think, I think the only people that have made it difficult to understand or

00:40:45.440 calculate in a way has been the food scientists themselves that have created these chemicals

00:40:50.720 using the same technology as tobacco companies.

00:40:54.400 You know, RJ, R. Reynolds, and Philip Morris bought up all the food companies in the early.

00:40:59.980 Yes, that's another thing.

00:41:01.100 See, I don't know much about that.

00:41:02.360 So we should go into that a little bit too, because that, that's a fact that I've only

00:41:06.140 stumbled on, I don't know, maybe it was only since that Senate hearing, you know?

00:41:11.780 Yeah.

00:41:12.880 Because that came to light there.

00:41:15.400 And I thought, oh no, that can't be true.

00:41:18.180 We have the food pyramid catastrophe.

00:41:20.320 And so the food pyramid catastrophe is the fact that marketing people built the food pyramid,

00:41:26.100 right?

00:41:26.360 Not scientists.

00:41:27.400 And they justified it scientifically.

00:41:29.300 Yeah.

00:41:29.520 And their own scientists warned them, their own consultants, that they would produce an

00:41:33.700 epidemic of obesity and diabetes.

00:41:35.540 And they ignored that.

00:41:37.000 Yeah.

00:41:37.220 And that was the Department of Agriculture.

00:41:39.180 Yeah.

00:41:39.560 And I guess it was out of that, I hope I have this right, that subsidies that made corn syrup

00:41:45.340 dirt cheap came about.

00:41:46.780 And I suppose that had the advantage of cheap calories, but like everything and its dog has

00:41:52.080 corn syrup in it.

00:41:52.980 And that seems to be a relatively bad idea.

00:41:55.440 I mean, it's a basic question to ask, why does the Coca-Cola served here have high fructose

00:42:02.280 corn syrup made from genetically engineered corn here in the United States, but in other

00:42:08.240 countries, they're using real sugar, right?

00:42:11.160 Like we have a seriously different set of ingredients and chemicals that we are being exposed to than

00:42:20.420 other countries.

00:42:21.060 So why do you trust the Europeans more than the Americans on that front? 0.60

00:42:25.340 Because they're using more natural ingredients, things that came from the earth.

00:42:28.500 And I'm using my own, again, going back to this idea that it doesn't need to be rocket

00:42:32.960 scientists.

00:42:34.240 The food scientists have made our life complicated because all you have to do is go back to real

00:42:39.220 food.

00:42:39.620 Like intuitive eating and going back to like what you would find in a farmer's market is

00:42:46.100 literally the first step to unleashing your grips on this industry that has harmed our

00:42:53.300 health, right?

00:42:53.940 Well, so one of the things that I've thought through with regards to this carnivore diet

00:42:58.220 that my daughter and my wife have been instrumental in pursuing is that it radically simplifies the

00:43:07.460 playing field, right?

00:43:08.400 I mean, and I'm trying to think just strictly as a scientist in that regard, if you have

00:43:14.880 a chronic illness or a set of chronic illnesses and the etiology is unspecified, which is generally

00:43:20.900 the case for chronic illnesses, the first thing you might want to do is simplify the landscape,

00:43:26.780 right?

00:43:27.040 Now, you can't simplify it more than with a meat-only diet or a beef-only diet even.

00:43:31.860 That's the simplest you can possibly make it because you can live on beef almost indefinitely.

00:43:38.300 Forever.

00:43:38.680 And so—

00:43:39.280 I think about the Maasai, right?

00:43:40.680 Like—

00:43:41.000 Yeah, right.

00:43:41.540 Yeah.

00:43:41.700 Or the Inuit, for that matter.

00:43:43.380 Right.

00:43:43.500 Although they don't eat beef, but, you know, they eat meat and fat fundamentally, and they

00:43:49.820 live on it indefinitely.

00:43:51.640 And you can do that.

00:43:52.640 And so that way you eliminate, well, a plethora of potential food-related symptoms, and then

00:44:03.980 all the interactions between those foods.

00:44:05.800 And if it works, well, then you can experiment slowly to see if there are particular things

00:44:10.320 that you're sensitive to, you know?

00:44:12.480 Or that—because what we've seen with the carnivore diet, you know, they say the plural

00:44:17.960 of anecdote isn't data, which is a cliche I really hate because the plural of anecdote

00:44:22.400 is hypothesis, actually.

00:44:24.520 If, you know, a thousand people tell you something, it's like, maybe, maybe we can test it and

00:44:31.180 see, like, something might be there.

00:44:33.080 It's not proof.

00:44:34.320 Definitely.

00:44:35.220 Proof is hard to come by.

00:44:36.380 But it's the beginnings of the process of investigation.

00:44:41.680 Well, it's clear to me that the carnivore diet radically reduces obesity.

00:44:48.320 I mean, I had a friend who recently started it.

00:44:50.680 Again, this is an anecdote, but I've seen this with many, many people.

00:44:53.920 He lost 30 pounds in one month.

00:44:56.060 He's like 35, you know?

00:44:58.340 30 pounds.

00:44:59.200 How the hell do you do that?

00:45:00.500 That isn't even possible.

00:45:01.820 Yeah.

00:45:02.220 You know, because obviously that wasn't all fat.

00:45:04.680 Right.

00:45:05.260 I don't think it's even metabolically possible to do that.

00:45:07.880 Maybe it is.

00:45:08.520 I can't see how.

00:45:09.580 But in any case, so what was that?

00:45:12.480 Reduction in fluid from inflammation, maybe, at least to some degree.

00:45:16.020 Yeah.

00:45:16.440 But the typical response that I've been told by people is that people seem to lose about

00:45:23.540 seven pounds a month, which is still, that's a lot, man.

00:45:26.780 Yeah.

00:45:27.120 That's like world shaping.

00:45:29.180 That's 84 pounds in a year.

00:45:30.800 It's a lot.

00:45:32.100 Yes.

00:45:32.360 You know?

00:45:32.720 And so, okay.

00:45:34.160 So your take is that you simplify, right?

00:45:37.140 That's right.

00:45:37.540 You're trying to go down to more basic foods.

00:45:39.380 Yeah.

00:45:39.600 You go back to real food without added chemicals.

00:45:42.000 Yeah.

00:45:42.200 Well, people say you eat around the edges of the supermarket.

00:45:45.160 That's right.

00:45:45.720 Yeah.

00:45:46.060 Or the farmer's market.

00:45:47.020 You go there.

00:45:47.500 Yeah.

00:45:47.780 And it's really that simple.

00:45:49.900 It really is.

00:45:50.760 It's not complicated.

00:45:52.260 And, you know, I think what has been so disturbing about the American food supply is

00:46:00.740 it's been engineered to get us to eat more than we should.

00:46:04.420 Well, that's the next thing.

00:46:05.960 Okay.

00:46:06.200 So this is where we're going to talk about the tobacco companies.

00:46:09.100 That's right.

00:46:09.380 Okay.

00:46:09.660 That's right.

00:46:10.440 So tell me what you know about the tobacco company's purchase of the food industry.

00:46:16.840 And like, just lay that out because I don't really understand.

00:46:19.840 Yeah, absolutely.

00:46:20.460 So RJR Reynolds and Philip Morris bought up General Foods and Kraft back in the day.

00:46:28.420 And what they did was they said, we have an opportunity now to get into the food business

00:46:34.500 because there was a decrease in the use of tobacco because of the cigarette type warning

00:46:39.300 labels, you know, the warning labels that they enacted.

00:46:41.560 And people became clear on you shouldn't really smoke tobacco.

00:46:44.740 It causes cancer.

00:46:45.400 And so they were looking for another opportunity to diversify their portfolio.

00:46:51.520 And so they said, well, we have all of this amazing research that we've used to hook people

00:46:58.440 to tobacco.

00:46:59.760 Well, we can use the same research and the same scientists to do the same thing to food.

00:47:04.260 And we're going to buy the flavoring companies too, right?

00:47:07.540 We're going to buy-

00:47:08.180 So that's a very serious allegation.

00:47:10.300 Yeah.

00:47:10.640 Which is true.

00:47:11.360 It's 100% true.

00:47:12.860 I mean-

00:47:13.500 Which parts of it?

00:47:14.320 Let's take it apart.

00:47:15.540 Yeah, yeah.

00:47:16.820 So it's easy to verify whether or not the tobacco companies bought the food companies,

00:47:21.760 right?

00:47:21.980 That's a matter of public record.

00:47:23.220 Right.

00:47:23.320 But the next parts of it, like, why do you think that's true?

00:47:27.100 Like, I understand that they bought the food companies.

00:47:29.740 Yeah.

00:47:30.060 And the fact that they were tobacco companies and they bought the food companies is suspicious,

00:47:35.660 right?

00:47:36.060 Right.

00:47:36.280 But then to say after that, that they consciously plan to use their scientists to addict people

00:47:44.820 to fast food, let's say, or processed food, that's a different thing.

00:47:49.040 So let me push back on that a little bit.

00:47:51.420 Well, because-

00:47:52.520 Well, I mean, PepsiCo has a robot that has mimicked real human taste buds that they use for testing.

00:48:00.840 Okay.

00:48:01.860 And this kind of information is getting out now because we have a teenager in Pennsylvania

00:48:06.700 that just filed a lawsuit. 1.00

00:48:08.520 He's 16 years old, has non-alcoholic fatty liver disease-

00:48:13.840 Oh, yeah.

00:48:14.300 ...and diabetes.

00:48:15.800 And he is suing 11 of the top food companies in America for his ailments, saying that the

00:48:21.840 ultra-processed food diet that he was on made him that way because it was addictive in nature.

00:48:27.540 And so as part of that lawsuit, they've come out with this evidence, right?

00:48:32.900 And more is going to be discovered in Discovery, which I'm so excited about because when I read

00:48:37.520 the lawsuit, it was over, I don't know, 150 pages or something.

00:48:41.100 And when I read it, it was like a horror movie because it showed, even though it was in the

00:48:47.220 exact pictures of what kind of technology they used to addict our taste buds and our senses to

00:48:54.320 food, they showed the types of technology and the brain nodes that they actually attach

00:48:58.600 to rats and to humans and to-

00:49:03.300 Yeah, well, people understand the opening system pretty well now.

00:49:06.420 Right.

00:49:06.660 So, okay.

00:49:07.780 But how would you distinguish delicious and easy from addictive, right?

00:49:14.360 Because, look, it's not surprising that food companies would attempt, of course, they're

00:49:19.180 competing to-

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00:49:51.560 Now, that's the thing, is that are they competing to please you or are they competing to addict

00:49:57.220 you?

00:49:57.480 And then the next question is, why are those different?

00:50:00.880 Like, because the hallmark of addiction is maximization of short-term pleasure.

00:50:06.160 Now, it becomes pathological when the maximization of short-term pleasure interferes with medium

00:50:12.820 to long-term thriving, right?

00:50:15.240 That's not a good combination.

00:50:16.920 Yeah.

00:50:17.580 But it's a fine line.

00:50:20.720 The line between addictive and pleasurable is, that's a thin line.

00:50:25.300 And so if I'm a food company and I want to make a product that's competitive, I'm going

00:50:28.760 to try to make it as delicious as possible and as easy.

00:50:32.340 And then, so-

00:50:34.660 So that's where the moral dilemma comes in, right?

00:50:37.460 Yes, yes.

00:50:38.520 Right?

00:50:38.780 Well, and the criminal dilemma for that matter.

00:50:40.560 Yes, for the criminal dilemma.

00:50:42.040 I mean, when we have 38% of preteens ages 12 to 18 now being pre-diabetic when it used

00:50:48.080 to be zero.

00:50:48.620 38%?

00:50:49.360 38%.

00:50:50.080 And the age range?

00:50:51.360 12 to 18 years old.

00:50:53.340 38, yeah, that's terrible.

00:50:55.040 It used to be zero, right?

00:50:56.820 Right.

00:50:57.180 We have to look at what's happening in the food supply.

00:51:00.100 We have to hold someone accountable for it or create some type of regulation or change

00:51:06.080 that would prevent this from continuing to go down in the dumps, which is where we're

00:51:10.500 headed because right now we're last when it comes to 60 other kids.

00:51:13.100 Okay, let me ask you another question.

00:51:14.320 Why not hold mothers responsible? 1.00

00:51:16.920 You know, because one of the things that I think has happened too is that, and I don't

00:51:20.840 know how to make heads or tails out of this, is that obviously what's happened is that

00:51:25.680 food preparation has been taken out of the home and transferred to companies.

00:51:30.500 Yep.

00:51:30.740 Now, the advantage of that is that it's fast and cheap.

00:51:33.960 That's right.

00:51:34.360 Right?

00:51:34.560 And easy.

00:51:35.280 And there are advantages to that.

00:51:36.800 Let's not forget.

00:51:37.720 I mean, when people were preparing, this would be particularly true of your home country,

00:51:42.160 I mean, how many hours a day would women be spending preparing Indian food in the traditional 0.99

00:51:47.420 way, like in a village, like all day, right, right, all day, 100% of the time now, and they

00:51:54.360 were using a variety of different spices and a variety of different fermentation techniques.

00:51:59.340 And they're very complex.

00:52:00.360 Like I know that one of the reasons that modern bread isn't as edible as traditional bread

00:52:05.400 is because we use fast rising yeast, which speeds things up, which is a plus because we

00:52:10.600 like time, but it also, it's less effective in breaking down the proteins, and so they're

00:52:17.260 harder to digest, et cetera, et cetera.

00:52:19.380 I mean, all these traditional ways of making food were time-tested.

00:52:23.540 Fermentation, for example.

00:52:25.380 Now, we've substituted ease and we've substituted industrial ease for home food preparation.

00:52:32.700 Now, the upside of that is, well, that's four hours a day, five hours a day that are freed

00:52:37.280 up primarily for women.

00:52:38.860 Yeah.

00:52:39.060 So then why go after the companies and why not go after the home and say like, because

00:52:46.320 if you're going to solve it, you need to solve the crux of the problem.

00:52:50.040 And I mean, you can say that I'm doing both in a way because I'm an activist on one side,

00:52:54.540 but I also am a cookbook writer on the other, right?

00:52:56.540 I've written two cookbooks where I'm teaching people how to make things faster with real food

00:53:01.660 in the house that doesn't take all day, right?

00:53:03.760 And so, but the problem is the way our nutritional science gets divvied to the public and decimated

00:53:12.800 to the public, it's riddled with conflicts of interest.

00:53:17.540 It creates a situation where, for example, you know, you have these studies that come

00:53:22.220 out and they say, you know, candy is actually makes kid athletes better at their sports.

00:53:28.820 You know, this was a headline that went out, right?

00:53:31.320 And it was a study funded by Mars and, you know, the company who makes M&Ms and the other

00:53:37.920 American candy companies.

00:53:39.480 Well, these studies come out, not because they, like, we're going to believe them and we're 0.97

00:53:45.620 going to call out the bullshit for them, but it makes it so that when a mother is in the 0.99

00:53:52.180 line at a grocery store and their child is tugging at their skirt, grabbing those M&Ms and wanting 0.99

00:54:00.180 to put them in the cart, they say, oh, it's really not that bad, right?

00:54:05.060 It makes that situation so that they feel okay doing it.

00:54:11.880 And that's how probably 90% of the information that gets sent out to the American public through

00:54:19.360 media, through marketing, through magazines, through wherever we're listening, TV is happening

00:54:26.020 when it comes to food.

00:54:27.440 The real information about how our food is full of chemicals and has been designed to make

00:54:33.340 us overeat is not getting out.

00:54:36.820 And so when you make such an interesting argument, and I love that you've delved deep into the

00:54:42.020 psychology behind this, because it is true that the food companies want to make their food

00:54:46.280 delicious.

00:54:47.640 Yeah, well, and I would say they've succeeded as well.

00:54:50.240 Yes.

00:54:50.260 Oh, I mean, of course, because, but is it an unfair advantage to an American, to a human being,

00:54:59.900 that a company can have that kind of technology, a robot that has taste buds?

00:55:06.100 Yeah.

00:55:06.660 Right?

00:55:07.240 Well, you can say the same thing about social media.

00:55:09.580 Oh, totally.

00:55:10.500 I know, I know.

00:55:11.080 Well, you have industry-sized enterprises focusing on maximizing short-term pleasure for commercial

00:55:18.640 gain.

00:55:19.260 That's right.

00:55:19.780 Well, that's rough.

00:55:21.680 And that is, it is like, it is a hard thing for the average family to compete with.

00:55:27.420 We can't compete with that.

00:55:28.780 It's hard.

00:55:28.880 And mothers can't compete with that. 1.00

00:55:30.380 We can't, we don't even stand a chance up against that science because they're creating

00:55:34.580 the one millionth best part of a taste.

00:55:37.380 You know, the reason why nature is so important for a child to eat at a very young age and allows

00:55:45.140 them to become a less picky child is because, take a blueberry, sometimes they're mealy,

00:55:50.180 sometimes they're hard, sometimes they're juicy, sometimes they're plump, sometimes they're

00:55:53.840 small, sometimes they're big.

00:55:55.200 It's different every time you have a blueberry.

00:55:58.280 Whereas if you go and get a blueberry Nutri-Grain bar or some other cereal, it's the exact same

00:56:03.760 time every single time.

00:56:05.700 And then they're using the one millionth best part of a taste in a flavor component that they

00:56:10.920 call natural flavor on the label, which could mean a thousand different chemicals.

00:56:15.720 And if your kid grows up on that, they're going to be picky and hate real food.

00:56:20.180 And they're going to end up in that 38%, you know, pre-diabetes situation that we have right

00:56:26.260 now with pre-teens.

00:56:27.360 Whereas if you start your child on blueberries, real blueberries, they're going to have a chance,

00:56:33.400 right?

00:56:34.040 And so we have to hit it from both sides.

00:56:37.840 We have to hold the food companies accountable.

00:56:39.680 We also have to educate the public the truth about the food industry, the truth about nutrition,

00:56:45.040 the truth about real food, what's been done to our food in the last 50 years, how to undo

00:56:49.980 that in your own home and how to get the products out there and how to pick the right products

00:56:54.180 that are using less, you know, chemicals and additives so that you don't expose your family

00:57:00.120 to this.

00:57:00.700 And we're just at this critical phase right now where we have an opportunity like we've

00:57:07.120 never had before because of the national conversation.

00:57:10.620 And I have more hope now that we can actually change the trajectory of where we're headed

00:57:17.480 than I've ever had in my entire career.

00:57:19.880 And it's allowed me now to get back in the game, whereas before, again, I was worried

00:57:25.540 about getting back in the game because I have children now, right?

00:57:27.840 And it was the reason why I wanted to say no to doing the Senate testimony.

00:57:31.500 But I'm so glad I did because now we have created a—it's beautiful because we've created

00:57:38.260 this community of people, this movement of people that not only care about their own health,

00:57:43.960 but they want to hold these companies accountable.

00:57:46.840 They want to spread this message far and fast and wide.

00:57:50.880 And it's taking over social media to the point where it's getting to people that I

00:57:54.880 never thought would ever listen or understand.

00:57:57.760 And that's the piece that I think is so important about the work that I do is I want people to

00:58:03.980 wake up.

00:58:04.980 And so when I pick a certain company and I target some individual company for a chemical,

00:58:10.000 it's not necessarily about that chemical or that company.

00:58:12.420 It's about waking people up because of the injustice of what's happened to our food system.

00:58:18.340 All right.

00:58:20.480 What were the consequences for you of the Senate hearing?

00:58:25.120 Well, first of all, after the Senate hearing, I couldn't believe the media, for example.

00:58:32.300 We had the left-leaning mainstream media either ignore us or call us names.

00:58:41.020 They called us the woo-woo caucus.

00:58:42.720 Yeah.

00:58:42.980 Well, you know, there's nothing more corporate friendly than the left-wing media.

00:58:48.120 Yeah.

00:58:48.540 Like, how the hell did that happen?

00:58:50.240 You know, it's so weird.

00:58:51.400 I don't understand the current political situation at all because 20 years ago, if you stood up

00:58:58.020 against the giant corporations, the left was all over you regardless of who you were.

00:59:03.540 The mere fact that you were standing up against the giant corporations was sufficient to validate

00:59:08.380 you. And now, like, I can't really think of anything that should appeal more to people who

00:59:15.260 are on the left than individuals standing up against gigantic corporations run by, like,

00:59:22.440 cigarette companies.

00:59:23.540 Yeah.

00:59:23.820 Right? But no, that's not—now, obviously, that has to have something to do with advertising.

00:59:28.760 One hundred percent. One hundred percent. Because they didn't even bother to ask for

00:59:33.500 comment or, you know, interview us or anything like that. They just wrote the article. And

00:59:37.500 it's in the Atlantic, you know, this is—

00:59:40.220 The Atlantic is done.

00:59:41.600 Yeah, they're done.

00:59:42.300 The Atlantic disappeared five years ago.

00:59:44.580 Yeah.

00:59:44.880 You know, I used to read it all the time. It was a great magazine. And then something—I

00:59:48.320 think it changed ownership. It did change ownership. And I think that's what did it in.

00:59:53.240 It became a propaganda magazine.

00:59:54.740 It makes me mad because it was one of the—you know, it was one of the—it was great.

00:59:57.960 —the Christmas gifts that my father-in-law would send to us. And I'm like, great, I can

01:00:01.100 read this. This is fantastic.

01:00:02.000 Yeah, right.

01:00:02.460 You know, I would quote it all the time.

01:00:03.600 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:00:04.840 So, you know, that was really disappointing. And it was—

01:00:08.340 Were you surprised that it was Ron Johnson who did this? I mean, this is the other thing

01:00:12.440 that's so weird. It's like, okay, so it's the Republicans and more the traditional

01:00:17.400 Republicans.

01:00:17.880 Right.

01:00:18.080 It's not even the Trump types.

01:00:19.640 Yeah.

01:00:19.760 The traditional Republicans are calling on food activists to go after the large food

01:00:26.000 companies run by the cigarette companies. It's like, how the hell did we get there?

01:00:29.660 And let me just tell you, the four hours we were there, there was not one political partisan

01:00:38.500 party talking point talked about. It was four hours on how to save humanity. And nobody wanted

01:00:48.920 to cover it. It was insane. I just couldn't believe it. That, like, the mainstream media

01:00:53.260 just completely, you know, ignored us in a way.

01:00:56.400 Well, luckily, it's just part of their demise.

01:00:58.960 I mean, and I just—it was like the Twilight Zone. I really couldn't believe it. And I also

01:01:04.500 want to say thank you to Senator Ron Johnson for allowing me to—

01:01:08.920 How did he get involved? Like, why did he do this? Why, like, you know?

01:01:13.200 I mean, I think he cares deeply about what's happened to our health in this country. And

01:01:19.840 he wanted truth tellers to be there at the table telling the truth. And he allowed me

01:01:25.460 to talk about the food companies in an uncensored way that has never been before Congress in

01:01:32.480 that way ever to the point where—

01:01:34.600 It was a very weird day.

01:01:35.480 Oh, yeah. I mean, and I honestly am so thankful for that because my testimony went so far and so

01:01:44.000 wide. I mean, hundreds of millions of views across so many different platforms. And people were all

01:01:50.640 of a sudden just waking up going, oh, my gosh, I had no idea these chemicals are in American food and

01:01:57.480 not other countries. And why are American companies doing this? And the questioning starts to happen in

01:02:02.620 someone's mind. And they start to question what they're eating. And that's where it starts, right?

01:02:06.480 That's where the change happens. And I do this work because I want people to never get in the

01:02:12.720 position I was in when I was younger. I want to reach them before they get to that point.

01:02:18.220 I don't know if I'm successful or not. I feel like I'm successful in that I get the people that

01:02:23.340 are starting on the verge of being sick or they're looking for change. But I'm really hoping I get to

01:02:27.680 the people that haven't had to go through the trouble that I've been through. And that is what

01:02:35.880 ultimately motivates me to keep my message loud and clear. Because I think where people start to

01:02:45.320 pay attention is sometimes this situation where it's taken from a different point of view. It's not the,

01:02:52.780 oh, you should eat healthy. You should eat more fruits and vegetables. Oh, you should look at

01:02:57.560 your nutrition, what the traditional route of a nutritionist or a registered dietitian would have

01:03:04.000 done, right? But from an activist standpoint, I think it's like everybody wants to hold someone

01:03:09.180 accountable for this mess. There has to be a villain in this, right? And the villain right now is the food

01:03:15.400 industry in a way because, again, they have put profits over people over and over and over again.

01:03:22.920 And now we're in a situation when we look at the chronic disease rates.

01:03:27.820 Hey, everyone, real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious and

01:03:32.180 important. Dr. Jordan Peterson has created a new series that could be a lifeline for those battling

01:03:37.520 depression and anxiety. We know how isolating and overwhelming these conditions can be. And we

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01:03:52.680 this way in his new series. He provides a roadmap towards healing, showing that while the journey

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01:04:10.120 watching Dr. Jordan B. Peterson on depression and anxiety. Let this be the first step towards the

01:04:16.060 brighter future you deserve. We are in a dire situation where we all have to work together,

01:04:24.920 corporations and government, to try to solve this. And that's what I'm so excited about because after

01:04:33.240 that Senate roundtable, it was like an explosion happened with our movement. I don't know if you

01:04:42.380 felt that. I mean, I just felt like it was the turning point in a way. I mean, just having Robert

01:04:49.180 F. Kennedy Jr. sit down with us and hear each one of our testimonies and him say these words to me,

01:04:55.480 and I'll never forget, he said this. He said, if another foreign nation was doing this to us,

01:05:01.400 it would be considered an act of war. When it came down to, you know, American companies using

01:05:08.000 ingredients that are banned or heavily regulated in other countries, not in their own, you know,

01:05:12.360 not, you know, they use a safer version for other countries and a more toxic version here.

01:05:19.240 That is something that just needs to change and fundamentally stop. And so-

01:05:24.300 Have there been companies, I mean, you talked about Chick-fil-A and they worked with you.

01:05:28.560 Have there been companies that have reached out to you other than Chick-fil-A to improve the quality

01:05:36.780 of what they're offering? I mean, I know what's happening with Robbie Starbuck. Now, it's quite

01:05:41.600 frequently the case that when he reaches out to a company now, particularly, they make changes very

01:05:48.500 quickly and adjust their behavior. I mean, he said when I interviewed him, he said that a lot of the

01:05:55.660 executives didn't even really know what their DEI people were pushing fundamentally, which doesn't

01:06:02.460 surprise me in the least because what people don't know about DEI and its philosophical roots

01:06:08.600 could fill many books. And, but they, you know, and one of the things about corporations that's a

01:06:15.740 positive, I mean, there's many things about corporations that are positive, but they do tend to

01:06:20.060 be quite responsive to the public. I mean, corporations that aren't responsive to their

01:06:25.020 customers disappear quickly. And so you'd think there would be a pathway to cooperation on this

01:06:32.280 front. And especially given, it's so weird though, eh? Because obviously the MAGA crowd have decided

01:06:40.060 they're on the make America healthy again side, which is weird, but it happened. And that's half the

01:06:46.500 American population at least. So you'd think there'd be a massive marketing opportunity there. I guess

01:06:52.200 part of the problem is that likely the corporations don't know how to market except through the legacy

01:06:58.840 media. And the legacy media leans left in this weird way that's pro-giant corrupt corporation, which

01:07:06.040 is also impossible to understand. So, you know, how much of it is that they just don't know, that they don't

01:07:12.500 know what to do. Right. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's really interesting. You know, when we took

01:07:17.400 the petitions to Kellogg's headquarters and I used, you know, my Senate testimony kind of lay the

01:07:22.620 framework of that petition drop because- So this was after this Senate hearing.

01:07:27.040 That's right. And so I, I said in this, in my Senate testimony, I said, I was going there on October

01:07:31.980 15th and you should come. You know, I invited everybody in the room and I invited other activists

01:07:37.000 and in the public and they came. I mean, we had a thousand people on the ground in Battle Creek,

01:07:42.300 Michigan, very hard place to get to. And we, we marched to Kellogg's headquarters. It was

01:07:48.980 a pivotal moment in my career to see that many people care about the American food system and

01:07:55.680 changing it. And, and they understood that this is a much bigger issue. But when, you know, Kellogg,

01:08:01.920 when we got to the front door and they didn't let us in, they sent out a security guard.

01:08:05.460 Uh, we looked up in to the building and in, in the window, one of the executives was still in

01:08:11.600 the building. They actually told most of their employees to go home that day. Uh, he, on a

01:08:16.580 whiteboard, that rolling whiteboard, he wrote, get off our lawn and, and showed it down to all of

01:08:21.320 the women and the children and everybody who was gathering there that day. And it was all captured

01:08:25.760 on film. And this really made a lot of people mad, made me mad. I had to cool off for a second

01:08:33.320 seeing that sign. Like, I can't believe they don't even have the decency to take these petitions

01:08:38.100 in hand. I mean, when I, when I did this with Kraft, when they were doing this with Kraft macaroni

01:08:42.640 and cheese, using one set of ingredients here in the United States and another, in other countries,

01:08:46.740 I petitioned them as well. And I delivered those petitions. They, they invited me in,

01:08:50.540 you know, that's what you do when someone gathers that many signatures and takes them to your

01:08:55.040 headquarters. You don't deny them entry and, and, and treat them like a, you know, a terrorist,

01:08:59.320 right? Um, but since then, what's been so amazing to, to watch is I, I'm sending letters now to other

01:09:08.840 big food corporations. I sent a letter to General Mills. Immediately they responded. They didn't

01:09:14.980 ignore me. And, and that's what I expect food corporations to be doing from this point forward,

01:09:21.400 because it is the biggest PR mistake ever. Oh, definitely. Especially right now. Yes.

01:09:28.580 Because the tide is obviously turned. Right. To not listen to us, not sit down and talk to us.

01:09:32.380 Oh, and also to not market to half the American population, right? That's right. That's a big

01:09:36.980 mistake. Big mistake. So what that also means is that companies that do pivot will have a definite

01:09:41.840 advantage and quite rapidly. So, right. And General Mills has already created a new cereal without

01:09:47.820 artificial dyes. So they're on, I think they're on their path. I think they're going to be probably

01:09:51.660 one of the first to change. Um, but again, you know, cereal is not exactly the healthiest thing we want

01:09:57.720 people to be eating, but this is about a bigger issue, which is getting the chemicals out of the

01:10:02.900 food, making it more real, having processed foods be available, but not full of carcinogens and other

01:10:09.460 toxins that could be affecting your brain, affecting your body, affecting your immunity,

01:10:14.420 um, and increasing cancer incidences. Uh, we have to look at everything, right?

01:10:23.260 That's a good place to end this section, I would say. So, um, for, for those of you who are watching

01:10:30.140 and listening, you know, we continue our discussion for half an hour on the Daily Wire side. And I think

01:10:34.540 what we'll talk about there is what, what could be done with the new administration and the new

01:10:42.280 health initiatives that are being put in place. I mean, the Trump administration people are sorting

01:10:50.620 all of this out now, trying to figure out how to rejig the food system, for example, so that it

01:10:56.360 doesn't produce the catastrophic consequences that we can see now. And so I think we'll get

01:11:02.100 Vanny's opinions about what she hopes that Trump team might do, like where's the biggest bang for

01:11:11.400 the buck, so to speak, in terms of re-evaluating how we prepare food and eat it and what we serve

01:11:17.760 to our children. So that's what we'll do on the Daily Wire side. So you could all join us for an

01:11:22.440 additional half an hour there. Thank you very much for coming in today. It was very nice to meet you

01:11:26.980 again, and to hear a bit more about what you've been doing. And to everybody watching and listening,

01:11:32.980 thank you very much.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - January 30, 2025

519. If Another Country Did This to Our Citizens, It Would Be War ｜ Vani Hari

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