521. Reform, R＊pe Gangs and the Rot of the UK ｜ Matthew Goodwin
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 30 minutes
Words per Minute
160.54907
Summary
Matthew Goodwin was a professor of political science in the UK, but he s turned his attention in recent years to developing a more public presence on the political front. He didn t really believe it was appropriate for him to be engaging in political action as a professor, and he also got, let s say, sick and tired of working for the increasingly woke university.
Transcript
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What we've been living through is an elite class imposing policies on everybody else,
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the consequences of which they are not going to have to endure.
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A trillion dollar cost net zero plan was passed through Westminster with 20 minutes of debate.
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Mass uncontrolled immigration has fundamentally weakened Great Britain.
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Boris Johnson did the opposite of what he promised voters he would do.
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You want to just describe what you see as the reality of the rape gang situation in the UK?
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Everyone around the world has heard of George Floyd. Nobody's heard those names.
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These are girls who were murdered when they were 12, 13, 14 years of age.
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Not a single police officer, social worker, council official, member of parliament
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has had any serious consequences for turning a blind eye to this.
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I don't even know how to conceptualize this and remain out of the domain of radical conspiracy theory.
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I was pleased to sit down today with Dr. Matthew Goodwin.
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Dr. Goodwin was a professor of political science in the UK,
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but he's turned his attention in recent years to developing a more public presence on the political front.
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He didn't really believe that it was appropriate for him to be engaging in political action as a professor.
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But he also got, let's say, sick and tired of working for the increasingly woke university.
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And so we started our conversation with a discussion of the pathologies of modern academia
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and tried to analyze exactly why the institutions had become so hidebound and ideologically rigid and punitive
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and also investigated whether there was anything that might be done about that apart from, say, making new institutions.
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I can't say we came to a particularly optimistic conclusion.
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And then we turned our attention to the unit party in the UK,
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the strange co-option, let's say, of both the Conservative and the Labour Party
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into this woke, utopian, green idealism that characterizes so much of modern politicking.
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And talked through, as well, the rise of the reform party in the UK as an antidote to the top-down elitism, let's say,
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the destructive top-down de-industrialization elitism that characterizes the political,
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the attitudes of the political class in the UK.
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We also discussed the relationship between the policies and philosophies of this new emergent reform party.
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We compared and contrasted them with the political attitude that's emerged in the United States under Trump,
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collaborating, let's say, with Elon Musk and the rest of the Trump Avengers.
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And, as well, the Alliance for Responsible Citizenship, which is a group that I helped found in the UK
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that was designed to produce a philosophical alternative to the machinations, let's say, of the WEF, Davos and UN crowd.
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Matt, maybe you could start by letting the viewers and listeners, especially those who aren't in the UK, know who you are.
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I was a professor of political science for, well, since 2015.
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And over the last year, I've basically moved more into the public debate, into political campaigning, having left the universities.
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But in terms of my background, I've also worked, I've been seconded to government departments.
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I've advised various prime ministers and presidents here in Europe about political issues.
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But now, to be frank, I've become so concerned about the state of my country that I've entered the public debate in a much more political way.
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OK, well, let's start with your university background then.
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I was at the University of Kent, having previously gone through the universities of Bath, Nottingham and Manchester here in the UK.
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OK, and so what was it that, apart from the dismal state of your country, let's say, which I think you share with my home country, Canada,
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what was it about academia and maybe even more specifically about your social and as a professor in political science that disenchanted you with academia?
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I think essentially what I saw over the last 20 years was higher education in this country, much like in North America, completely lose its way.
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It increasingly lost touch with the original mission of higher education.
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The universities I was working at were no longer really interested in the pursuit of truth, in good faith debate, in scientific knowledge and evidence, especially in the social sciences.
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I know that you've spoken on this show to my good friend, Eric Kaufman, who has experienced the same here in the UK.
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And to be frank, Jordan, I just got sick of it.
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I wanted to try and do something about what's happening in not just the UK, but in the West today.
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And my university ran into financial problems, and I decided this was a great moment to exit and try and have an impact on the wider conversation.
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And that's what I'm doing, and that's why I'm with you here today.
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Okay, so let's delve into the details, both practical and personal, with regards to the universities, because, you know, now it's been a while since I've been actively involved with the university.
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And, you know, I now and then have this sense that maybe I'm exaggerating the catastrophe that the universities have become because I was involved in it so deeply personally.
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So let me review for a minute what I see as the major problems, and maybe you could expand on that.
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I'd like to know as well what you experienced personally.
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Okay, so the first thing that happened to me, I would say around 2013 or so, was that I noticed that my graduate students, particularly the females, were starting to get nervous about lecturing about gender differences in personality.
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And that actually turned out to be a big problem for my lab, because I'm a personality psychologist, and one of the things we do is look at sex differences in personality.
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And then I noticed I was starting to get nervous about that, and that really set me back on my heels, because I was never nervous about anything that I lectured about, particularly because I tried to base what I lectured about on what I knew.
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And what I learned, what I learned, what I had investigated, it was pursuit of the truth, as far as I was concerned.
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And I was apprenticed in a lab where truth mattered.
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The DEI people moved in, and the administration ballooned out of control.
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And university tuition prices continued to expand in expense, and the research boards, which I always had trouble with all the way back to the 1980s, they became impossible to deal with.
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So that while I had ramped up my ability to do research, I would say I probably improved my speed at doing research by a factor of 50, given computational technology, I was doing research more and more slowly, because it took forever to get through the research ethics boards, which had nothing to do with research ethics, as far as I was concerned.
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And then there was the overwhelming tilt, the radical left.
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And so it became dismotivating, unmotivating to continue.
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So tell me what your experience was as a professor, as a lecturer, and a researcher.
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Well, I think in many ways, Jordan, our stories are somewhat similar within higher education.
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You know, if you look at the UK, you know, the stat that I always remind people is back in the 1960s, for every one conservative academic, there were three academics on the left.
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Today, for every one conservative, classical, liberal academic, there are 10 academics on the left today.
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If you look at the rigorous surveys of how faculty has changed over the last half century or so.
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And so within that, what you've seen, you know, as I'm sure many people in North America will also relate to, you've seen the rapid expansion of the university bureaucracy, the politicization of the university bureaucracy, which for an academic like me found its expression in having to do things like mandatory diversity statements, whereby every time I went for a research grant, every time I went for a job, I had to swear allegiance, essentially, to the diversity, equity, and inclusion agenda.
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I had to decolonize my university reading list.
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But more than that, Jordan, to be frank, I was sick and tired of watching many of my colleagues, good people, Kathleen Stock, Noah Karl, Eric Kaufman, among others, being harassed, bullied, intimidated, and chased off campus because they were saying entirely legitimate, reasonable things that happened to violate this orthodoxy on campus.
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And I felt sorry for their parents who were paying for this education.
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And it was particularly for me, actually, it was the experience of going through the Brexit referendum, OK?
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I mean, just to paint a brief picture, prior to 2016, with the votes for Brexit and Trump, I was, by all metrics, a very successful academic.
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I was one of the youngest professors in the UK.
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I attracted a lot of money from the research councils.
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I published it for Oxford University Press, Cambridge University Press.
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I published in the most prestigious academic journals.
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And this was part of what I would call the BB era in my career, before Brexit.
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Now, when 52% of voters decided they wanted to leave the European Union, and I publicly expressed my acceptance of that, I didn't campaign for Brexit, but I said, well, if 52% of people want to leave, OK, let's leave the European Union.
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And I wrote some op-ed saying perhaps how Britain could take advantage of this, well, everything in my career after that changed.
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I mean, I can only describe it as being something similar to what I experienced when I was at high school, being bullied by kids in a boys' school, notoriously difficult environments.
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But academics really did launch a sustained campaign of harassment and intimidation.
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Suddenly, my research grant applications were rejected.
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So, you know, this isn't the sort of complaint of an academic that never had these things.
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And after a while, you know, you have to look yourself in the mirror and you have to ask yourself, do I want to spend the rest of my life doing this?
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I don't want to spend the rest of my life like this.
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And I looked at what was happening at the University of Austin.
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I looked at what was happening at the University of Buckingham here in the UK.
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I looked at things like, you know, you've got the Peterson Academy.
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I said, well, here are parallel structures, parallel institutions.
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But I also started to campaign for something called the Higher Education Free Speech Act here in the UK, which was the first piece of legislation that created a legal duty on universities here in the UK to protect and promote free speech and academic freedom.
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And thankfully, that was passed, although the current Labour government is now defanging that law, and we can come on and talk about that.
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But I decided, basically, I wanted to do something about the state of my country and the state of the West.
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And to be honest, I concluded that I couldn't really do that while remaining a university professor.
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I said, I do believe in the importance of neutrality, of objectivity.
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You know, I don't think university professors should be politically active to the degree that I want to become politically active.
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I said, okay, I'm going to walk away from this after 20 years, and I'm going to actually try and enter the wider public debate and try and give people a voice.
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What was, I think it was Ernest Hemingway who famously, one of his characters, when asked
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how he went bankrupt, famously said, gradually then suddenly.
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And I've watched institutions, large institutions, including corporations, devolve and die.
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And I think it, I think this is how psychopathology develops in people too.
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You hit a point where a positive feedback loop of some sort develops.
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So you imagine that as the number of radical left-wing professors increases, the cost of not
00:14:56.860
And then it increases to the point where anyone who isn't someone like that, who has options,
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And then the people who are left are either incompetent and can't leave or are the radicals
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If a company has a bad quarter or two, often the 10% of people who are hyperproductive leave
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And then the company's in desperate straits almost immediately, even though it may still
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And then the other comment I would make that's horrible, really, that's a horrible observation
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is that, I mean, are we really at the place where the institutions of higher education that
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were supposed to function not only to educate young people, but also to act to some degree
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as intellectual stewards of the political, economic, social, and psychological environments,
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let's say, they've abdicated their responsibility.
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They've become so irresponsible and so corrupt that they actually can't do that anymore.
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One of the things I've been wondering, I've been contemplating the reality of the rot at
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And one of the things you have to ask yourself when many large institutions of the same type
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rot all at the same time, you have to ask yourself whether or not the reason that they're
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rotting, the simplest reason that they're rotting is because they're dead.
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And I kind of think that might be the case because I've tried to think through how you could
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save them, but you can imagine, here's the situation, they're way too expensive, they're
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way too centralized, they're way too dependent on government money, they're way too radical
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in their thinking, there's far too many administrators.
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And well, and that's enough, that's like six, that's like six terrible problems.
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And my experience watching large organizations fail is that if they have two major problems,
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And I can't even hypothesize how, well, and then he adds this, one final observation would
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be the younger the professor, given everything we've said, the more likely they are to be
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And that means the longer their tenure as tenured professors before the scales might be rebalanced.
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And so I can't even think, okay, so you left and you started acting in a more political
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way and you said you had some personal reasons for that, including the fact that you didn't
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think you should be a political actor as a professor.
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But do you see, like, I can't imagine that you're happy to see the demise of these great
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I mean, if we lose Oxford and Cambridge, for example, that's a complete bloody catastrophe.
00:18:09.100
And I've had this debate with many friends and colleagues of mine, much more successful
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I mean, people I really respect, historian Neil Ferguson, among others.
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And the way they talk about academia in the 80s and 90s is something I don't personally
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I think the universities, the legacy universities, Jordan, are gone.
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Donors constantly say to me, well, I'm going to buy, you know, or invest in an Oxford college
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Well, you and I both know, you and I both know as disillusioned academics that the moment
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that collides with the reality of the ecosystem of higher education, the ethics committees,
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the research councils, the bureaucracy, you and I both know what will happen.
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Any attempt to reform the legacy universities will get tied up immediately in paperwork and
00:19:08.620
Well, you know, we also didn't add to the panoply of problems the fact that the research journals
00:19:24.300
They charge them an arm and a leg completely inappropriately.
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And they put everything that researchers write behind a paywall.
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In a world where you can write something and publish it to an international audience in one
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day, the fact that it takes two years to publish a peer-reviewed article means that you're stuck
00:20:00.480
I watched the grievance studies hoax play out, whereby, you know, clearly fraudulent papers
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were submitted to social justice journals and then revealed to have been authored by,
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you know, Peter Boghossian, Helen Pluckrose, and James Lindsay.
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I watched the Michael Lecure scandal, whereby a researcher had claimed that a randomized controlled
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trial involving gay canvassers talking to voters face-to-face made them more supportive
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It turned out he had fabricated his data, but that was accepted without question by the
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I saw the Roland Fryer scandal at Harvard, you know, the nightmare that he had to go through
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to publish a finding that challenged the orthodoxy on campus.
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In that case, that African-Americans were not more likely to be killed by police.
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And I was just watching one scandal after another and just realizing, you know, the whole
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You know, the industry, the sector that I'm working in, it's just, it needs root and branch
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And I think in many ways for me, the universities, at least in the UK, are really a symbol of a
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much deeper rot that is set in, has set in into our culture and into our civilization.
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The institutions, the public sector, taxpayer-funded institutions have become politicized.
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They've become utterly disconnected from the vast majority of ordinary people in this country.
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And they have been imposing top-down a political agenda on everybody else that is really supported
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by only about 10 to 15 percent of radical progressives within Western populations.
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And that is what I've seen, not just in universities, but within government departments, within
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Westminster, you know, within the civil service, within the federal state bureaucracy.
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I think they can see this for what it is, which is political indoctrination.
00:22:05.420
Okay, so, yeah, well, we have a new leader who will likely be the next prime minister in
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Canada if he takes over the Liberal Party, which is the kind of classic ruling party of
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Canada, Mark Carney, who is the governor of the Bank of England.
00:22:23.680
And I just read his book, Values, which is a very bad book from the perspective of literary
00:22:33.040
But worse than that, it's like Trudeau, our current prime minister, has been a WEF follower
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for, I don't know, the last 15 years, let's say.
00:22:43.760
But he didn't have the originality or the ability to come up with the ideas or really
00:22:48.160
to implement them all that effectively, although he's pretty much crippled Canada's economy.
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And there's every probability that he'll be prime minister at least for an interim period
00:23:05.000
And so, and then I've been to the UK many times and have great admiration for that country,
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It's a terrible thing to see it decay and slip away.
00:23:16.240
And it's terrible to watch, for example, you people contend with energy prices that are
00:23:25.680
literally five times more than they need to be, at least five times.
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Mark Carney said, for example, that 85% of fossil fuel stores across the world have to be kept
00:23:36.720
And at the same time, he promises the denizens of my home province, Alberta, which is oil rich,
00:23:42.740
that somehow magically they'll all be supplied with green economy jobs, whatever the hell
00:23:48.520
they are, to replace the fossil fuel jobs that, you know, actually exist.
00:23:54.200
And so, and I don't know, I mean, my country, Canada, has gone down the insane woke rabbit
00:24:01.900
But I think your country, at least at the moment, under the Labour government is even,
00:24:07.520
ah, maybe you guys are worse, which is a hell of a contest to win.
00:24:14.380
Well, look, I think it's just important for people who are not in the UK, but have been
00:24:17.700
asking, asking us, Brits, the same question, you know, what the hell is happening to the
00:24:23.760
That's a question I get from many Americans, Canadians and others.
00:24:27.400
And the answer is that we are living through the effects of a political project that was
00:24:33.300
embraced by both the established left and right by the uniparty, that was really united
00:24:39.080
by a set of policies that voters are now beginning to reject.
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Net zero, mass uncontrolled immigration, much of it from outside of Europe, the imposition
00:24:51.880
of radical woke progressivism within public sector institutions, doubling down on a London-based
00:25:01.860
We're closing factories across northern England.
00:25:04.800
We're closing steel factories in the name of net zero and climate change and a broken
00:25:10.380
model of multiculturalism that most recently found its expression in the rape gang scandal
00:25:18.680
Now, many voters over the last 30 years have gradually looked at this elite consensus shared
00:25:32.680
And that is why I actually think you're beginning to see now what America saw in 2015, 2016.
00:25:41.180
You know, we're beginning to see radical political change in this country.
00:25:45.100
As I'm talking to you now in early, mid-February 2025, you know, in the national polls, Nigel
00:25:52.460
Farage and the Reform Party are now number one.
00:25:55.200
Labour and the Conservatives are now trailing this disruptive party, similar to the Canadian Reform
00:26:02.000
We're beginning to see a serious pushback from voters who have had enough of this.
00:26:08.820
And in Europe too, Jordan, you will know, in Germany, Austria, Sweden, you know, we are,
00:26:13.900
I think, beginning to see a sustained public-led pushback to the policies that have dominated
00:26:20.980
Western democracies for the last 30 to 50 years.
00:26:25.700
So let's talk about net zero in the UK for a moment.
00:26:30.640
I just interviewed Kemi Badnock, who's the new leader of the Conservative Party in the UK
00:26:40.100
And she noted her resistance to net zero when it was initially formulated.
00:26:47.460
But she also pointed out, and I just, I don't even know how to conceptualize this and remain
00:26:54.620
out of the domain of radical conspiracy theory.
00:26:57.580
You know, she pointed out, kind of like Keir Starmer, when he talked about the fact that
00:27:01.960
this experiment in mass migration was something that was perpetrated from the top down consciously,
00:27:06.940
and that everyone who opposed it was gaslit, and that was also conscious.
00:27:12.780
But Badnock said that something approximating a trillion-dollar cost net zero plan was passed
00:27:26.400
It's like, so I just don't know how to conceptualize this.
00:27:31.280
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Was it merely that they were trying to look like planetary saviors and to virtue signal,
00:28:42.560
Or was it the fact that, like Keir Starmer, they were completely enamored of the Davos WF
00:28:49.320
crowd, which they regarded as, like, somehow more stylish than, you know, the mere plodding
00:28:56.200
Well, you're answering your own questions in a way, Jordan, because the answer is they're
00:29:02.580
What has happened to the conservative party, one of the oldest, most successful parties in
00:29:09.340
the history of democracy, is that it has completely abandoned its ideological roots.
00:29:17.740
The vast majority of MPs in parliament, conservative MPs, are essentially liberal MPs.
00:29:24.740
They are the ones that put mass immigration on steroids.
00:29:29.280
They are the ones that put net zero on steroids.
00:29:32.720
They are the ones that put gender ideology on steroids.
00:29:36.800
And Kemi Badenoch is claiming that she is, the party has learned its lessons, that she's
00:29:45.960
But in reality, because of the structure of the Conservative Parliamentary Party, because
00:29:51.180
it is dominated from top to bottom by liberals, even if Kemi Badenoch believes in what she's
00:29:56.160
saying, she knows deep down she will not be able to fundamentally change the direction
00:30:02.160
So what I think we need is a bit like what America has witnessed over the last 10 years,
00:30:08.520
which is a complete replacement of not just the Tory party, but the dominant establishment
00:30:14.180
in this country, which is clinging to a consensus that is fundamentally out of touch with what
00:30:21.860
I mean, mass immigration, I'll give you one example, Jordan.
00:30:24.920
We can come back and talk a little bit about net zero.
00:30:28.100
But to me, mass uncontrolled immigration has fundamentally weakened Britain, Great Britain.
00:30:42.580
Boris Johnson did the opposite of what he promised voters he would do when he was elected in 2019.
00:30:50.900
86% of all migration into Britain is now coming from outside Europe, from what I would argue
00:31:03.320
And the evidence that we now have from various government bodies that are now finally admitting
00:31:09.380
that actually this is a net fiscal cost to the UK taxpayer, before you get to things like
00:31:16.100
the rape gangs, before you get to things like Islamist terrorism, before you get to things
00:31:20.720
like sectarianism on the streets of Britain that we've seen since the 7th of October,
00:31:26.140
just at an economic level, this doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
00:31:30.040
Yet it was imposed on everybody by both the established left and the established right.
00:31:36.180
So my theory of British politics here is that the voter backlash to mass immigration is going
00:31:42.900
This is going to be a major fault line in our politics.
00:31:46.760
And the Tories, the status-conscious Tories, and you're right, Jordan, because they are more
00:31:52.000
interested in winning social status from London liberals, from the luxury belief class,
00:31:58.880
from what Rob Henderson and others have talked about.
00:32:01.020
They are more interested in accruing social status from the London bubble than they are
00:32:10.560
They've completely sold this country down the river.
00:32:12.900
In fact, one minor example that I think will give international viewers a real sense of
00:32:17.980
what I would argue is a betrayal, it was the Conservative Party, under Boris Johnson when
00:32:24.940
it was in office, that even removed a requirement for companies in Britain to advertise jobs in
00:32:35.660
They didn't even prioritise British workers within this national economy.
00:32:44.660
And the end result is what you see around us today, which is zero growth, massive amounts
00:32:50.320
of debt, no productivity, declining GDP per capita, while we're also pursuing this net zero madness,
00:32:58.440
closing steel factories across northern England in order to deal with this political vanity project
00:33:03.740
for an elite class that doesn't apparently seem to care about anybody else in this country.
00:33:08.400
So I'm deeply worried about the direction of travel.
00:33:10.780
But the Tory party is not going to change the direction of travel.
00:33:16.120
You know, if an architect demolished your house, you wouldn't invite the architect back
00:33:23.360
And I think in the same way, you know, it was the Tories that really demolished Britain.
00:33:27.660
So why on earth would you invite them back to have another go?
00:33:33.820
OK, so let's see if we can get to the bottom of things here a little bit.
00:33:37.580
Now, you're outlining a scenario where both the right-wing party, the Conservatives' centrist
00:33:44.560
right party, and all the other parties were taken over by the same progressive mob, let's
00:33:52.300
And so the distinctions between the parties start to become irrelevant.
00:33:55.500
But then we have to ask ourselves, what are the motivations of the people who orchestrated
00:34:01.900
and participated and or at least didn't oppose the takeover?
00:34:10.140
And I'm going to go a little astray here, but I really do want to get to the bottom of
00:34:14.780
this, you know, because I'm trying to figure out what the fundamental error is.
00:34:17.960
We see it, let's say it's the same error manifests itself in virtue signaling on the environmental
00:34:23.920
side with regards to net zero and virtue signaling on the multicultural, liberal tolerance side
00:34:32.960
And so underneath that, there's this claim of tolerant moral virtue that requires no effort
00:34:38.920
personally and that requires other people to make the sacrifices.
00:34:42.320
Okay, so let me lay a structure underneath that, and I'd like to know what you think about
00:34:50.500
So I've been investigating classic religious stories in the Old Testament and the New, and
00:34:57.140
I've found an interesting parallel about a class of sin, you might say, in both of those
00:35:09.640
So one of the Ten Commandments is to not use God's name in vain.
00:35:15.160
And you see, people think that means don't curse.
00:35:18.720
That's the popularized idea, but that isn't what it means.
00:35:23.280
It means don't claim to be motivated by divine purpose.
00:35:30.080
So to use God's name when you're actually pursuing your own selfish agenda, right?
00:35:36.140
So don't subvert the divine to your own ego, your own motivation, your own status, because
00:35:48.740
And status determines longevity, for example, and status determines mating attractiveness among
00:35:57.280
So you can subvert that process by falsely claiming moral virtue.
00:36:00.840
Now, the same thing happens in the New Testament, because the Pharisees, who are Christ's primary
00:36:09.900
I mean, Christ tells the Pharisees, who are the leaders of popular religious movement tradition
00:36:17.200
at that time, that the only reason they proclaim their allegiance to God and the prophets they
00:36:23.720
purport to worship is so that they can have the best seats in the synagogues and accrue social
00:36:31.400
And he compares them to tombs that are whitewashed on the outside and full of rot on the inside.
00:36:38.120
And it's actually that accusation, that's one of the primary reasons that he ends up crucified.
00:36:43.320
So the reason I'm telling you this, it might seem a bit obscure, but the reason that I'm bringing this
00:36:49.840
up is because I don't think that we've come to grips with how powerful the temptation to accrue moral
00:36:59.100
status falsely, so that's reputational status, how deeply seated and absolutely destructive that is.
00:37:07.320
And, like, absent a better explanation, and Rob Henderson, of course, who you pointed out, has touched on
00:37:24.600
And so, first of all, I'm kind of curious about what you think of those ideas.
00:37:29.300
Then I'm curious about whether you have any alternative explanation for this, because it's a systemic rot,
00:37:38.380
We already decided, for what that's worth between us, that they don't look salvageable.
00:37:43.480
But you really extended that argument to the political parties themselves, with the possible
00:37:50.200
exception of reform, which we can talk about in a moment.
00:37:58.620
What would have, how would have you characterized your political orientation prior to your departure
00:38:05.340
And then what do you think of, what's your explanation for the pervasiveness of this rot?
00:38:12.020
Well, I think the answer to the first question is I would describe myself as, I mean, it sounds
00:38:17.340
very vague, but as somebody who simply cares a great deal about his country and somebody who is,
00:38:23.160
in very broad terms, on the side of the forgotten majority of people who share small-c,
00:38:28.780
conservative values, particularly on cultural and identity issues, who want to reform the
00:38:34.540
economy so it works for ordinary people, but feel that they're no longer really in the
00:38:39.480
And I don't feel as though my politics have changed over the last 20 years.
00:38:43.580
What I think has happened is that we have been living through, over the last 10 years,
00:38:47.340
the greatest radicalization of the elite class in Western societies since the 1960s.
00:38:53.220
And I've seen this, not just in terms of the universities, but actually in Westminster.
00:38:58.640
And I think the answer to your second question is, to go back again to this idea of the luxury
00:39:02.900
belief class, what we've been living through is an elite class imposing policies on everybody
00:39:07.200
else, the consequences of which they are not going to have to endure.
00:39:11.500
And I think you can see that in everything from mass migration, which across Europe, the
00:39:19.040
Serious academics, people like Professor Jan van der Beek, have shown this.
00:39:23.280
The influx of low-skill, low-wage migration from the Middle East and Africa is a net fiscal
00:39:30.100
If you looked at it simply through the lens of a cost-benefit analysis, you would simply
00:39:35.340
We've got to radically change the way we're dealing with migration.
00:39:40.700
So obviously, this is about the accruing social status for themselves.
00:39:45.280
But there's something else going on here, too, which is the enforcement of these taboos
00:39:49.320
within our conversation around migration, around what John McWater and others would call the
00:39:54.740
new religion, the sacred values that we cannot question, pro-net zero, pro-migration, pro-diversity
00:40:04.220
And that's exactly why, for example, Jordan, we didn't get to the bottom of the rape gangs
00:40:08.640
crisis because it was people's fears within the elite institutions of being seen to be
00:40:14.580
racist, being seen to be conservative, being seen to be Islamophobic or whatever word you
00:40:21.960
want to, whatever term you want to choose, which stopped people from getting to the truth.
00:40:25.820
So the imposition of these taboos, the imposition of these social norms, of trying to tightly
00:40:31.660
control the national conversation through hate laws, through these Orwellian things we have
00:40:37.380
in the UK called non-crime hate incidents, which again are sort of police measures that
00:40:45.500
All of this, I think, is about controlling the supply of information, stigmatising alternative
00:40:52.180
opposition to the elite project and trying to use these taboos to basically impose this
00:41:02.240
And the losers, of course, are ordinary people who are asking themselves questions like, well,
00:41:06.400
why are tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of young white working class girls
00:41:11.040
being raped in Great Britain and nobody talked about it for 30 years?
00:41:16.360
Like, that's a question a lot of people in this country are asking.
00:41:21.140
Why didn't the legacy media do anything about this?
00:41:25.100
You know, and by the way, a legacy media in this country that is now complaining about
00:41:29.780
Elon Musk talking about it, whereas the reality is if legacy media had been doing its job by
00:41:36.620
actually pursuing truth and taking the rumours seriously from the 1980s about girls being put
00:41:44.500
on heroin and cocaine and alcohol and being gang raped in northern towns across this country,
00:41:51.140
and being trafficked from one town to the next, if journalists had taken that seriously, we
00:41:56.640
wouldn't have had, according to one MP, she estimates perhaps up to a million children from
00:42:01.880
the 1980s have been abused to some extent by these gangs.
00:42:06.120
And the enforcement of these taboos is going on today, which is what makes it so remarkable.
00:42:11.820
Even after the rape gang scandal, we've got a Labour Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, who's now come out
00:42:16.860
and said, well, if you want to discuss the rape gangs, if you want to ask questions about the rape
00:42:20.460
gangs, I'm not going to give you a national inquiry into this issue.
00:42:24.840
But also, and I quote directly, you are jumping on the far right bandwagon if you're talking about
00:42:31.360
this issue. So again, it's an attempt to control the conversation, to suppress dissent, to suppress
00:42:39.040
opposition. And ultimately, I think it is partly about individual social status, but it is also
00:42:45.500
about maintaining and protecting this ideological project. I think fundamentally, that's what it's about.
00:42:51.920
Okay, okay. So, so it's about protecting the pretentious claims to unearned moral status of
00:42:59.440
the elite. But then we might ask ourselves, do you have any sense of why it was the progressive
00:43:05.680
ideas, so to speak, that emerged to dominate the universities? Like, I can't quite, I can't put those
00:43:12.320
two things together. Is it that the, is it that progressive, is it that what progressive ideas
00:43:18.060
actually do, as Rob Henderson, say, might indicate, is that, is the progressive ideology nothing but
00:43:26.340
the proclivity of the privileged elite to cover themselves in unearned moral glory? And is, is the
00:43:33.260
temptation so profound that that's the natural course of things? Like, because you might say, well, why
00:43:38.520
wasn't the progressive movement working class, you know? Or why was the elite movement towards moral
00:43:45.500
status virtue signaling? Why did that take this leftist twist? And I can't quite put those things
00:43:54.680
together. And I'm wondering if you have any thoughts about that. Well, I think over the last 50 years,
00:44:03.020
my, my view is that the nature of status fundamentally changed. It moved away from wealth and resource
00:44:10.620
into the realm of ideology and belief. And that became a key indicator for the elite class to accrue
00:44:17.980
status to say, actually, it's not just that, it's not just that I've got a butler, I've got a house,
00:44:22.360
I've got wealth, I've got money. It's that, you know, I know the vocabulary of radical progressivism.
00:44:27.980
I know what white privilege means. And I, you know, I know what white guilt means. And I'm going to,
00:44:34.400
you know, latch onto this sacred religion and ensure other people have to,
00:44:37.440
have to, you know, hear the word and do the work. I think, I think, I think that's part of it. But I
00:44:42.340
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expressvpn.com slash wire. Yeah. Well, okay. So let's imagine. Okay. Okay. That's a good hypothesis.
00:45:21.960
So let's imagine this. Let's say, look, when I was at Harvard in the nineties, I taught there in the
00:45:26.960
nineties, that place was firing in all cylinders. And that was the same at McGill when I trained
00:45:32.280
there as a clinical psychologist. I really liked being at McGill. We, I had excellent compatriots
00:45:38.980
there and the, the education I received by and large was extremely high quality, especially on
00:45:44.260
the research side. And then when I went to Boston and taught at Harvard, I thought the undergraduates
00:45:49.580
were great. I had excellent graduate students. The administrators served the faculty, particularly
00:45:54.880
the senior faculty. The senior faculty were the smartest and most well-informed people I'd ever met
00:46:00.140
by a lot. And everyone was devoted to their work to the point where we had very short faculty
00:46:06.480
meetings because everyone wanted to get back to their lab. It was really good. Okay. So now imagine
00:46:11.180
that we had a period of time after World War II where the, the elite universities, the high quality
00:46:18.200
universities really were high quality. They were merit-based and high quality. And they set up a
00:46:23.960
reputation system that was valid. Okay. Now imagine that the cluster B psychopaths and the narcissists
00:46:32.300
and the histrionic anti-merit types invaded those institutions that, that had developed this new currency
00:46:40.260
of status that you referred to, which would be educational accreditation, but it was valid. Well, now you can
00:46:48.420
game it. Now you can game it because it's been established. And I really see that this happened
00:46:53.340
at Harvard, for example, with, with the promotion, for example, of gay to the position of president.
00:46:59.020
It's like, what the hell was going on with that? She didn't have the academic credentials to be hired
00:47:04.680
at a second rate, um, at a, at a, in, as a professor in the second rate department. So, okay. So imagine that
00:47:12.240
the universities built up a, a reputation, a, a, a, a, a real, they were really markers of credibility
00:47:20.580
and then the system got gamed. Maybe that's the right explanation. Now you can place, go ahead, go ahead.
00:47:26.560
Yeah. Well, just, just something on that. I think something else happened too, though. And ultimately,
00:47:29.700
you know, it depends on whether you view the radical progressive takeover, which I personally
00:47:35.780
think has peaked. I think it's now on the, it's in retreat. I think, you know, Trump has got,
00:47:39.700
you know, the woke ideology, whatever your favorite term, I think it's on the back foot.
00:47:44.160
But if you, if you ask yourself, well, why did it emerge? I think, you know, there are those who say
00:47:48.020
it is a kind of radicalization of, you know, cultural Marxism and so on. But there are those,
00:47:54.200
you know, Eric Kaufman, among others, who I'm persuaded by, who say, no, actually,
00:47:57.760
this is a radicalization of liberalism. Like this isn't cultural Marxism. This is the inevitable
00:48:03.420
extension of liberalism, which became so consumed with minority rights,
00:48:09.700
and emotional harm, that particularly within universities, emotional safetyism, protecting
00:48:16.400
minorities, racial, sexual, and gender minorities from harm, from perceived emotional harm,
00:48:23.020
was basically prioritized over the pursuit of truth, objective science, objective knowledge,
00:48:29.040
and that just filtered through everything. And the moment the North Star became this notion of harm,
00:48:35.060
of protecting people from harm, everything trickled down from that. Now, that's what I saw in
00:48:40.440
universities. It's what I see in left and right in politics, this endless obsession with DEI,
00:48:46.520
this endless obsession with anti-racism training, this endless obsession with apologizing for what
00:48:52.360
happened 500 years ago. It is, I think, fundamentally, this sacralization of minorities that is lying at the
00:49:01.420
heart of this ideological revolution. Okay, let me add another ugly dimension to that line of
00:49:08.060
argumentation. And this is something, I haven't talked much about this publicly, but at least not
00:49:14.300
in this context, but I think it's probably worth broaching it. So, I did a research project in 2016,
00:49:20.240
just before my academic career blew up, where we were looking at predictors of politically correct
00:49:26.320
authoritarianism. First of all, we established that such a thing existed, all protestations to the
00:49:32.160
progressive, of the progressive social psychologists to the contrary. There was a coherent set of left-wing
00:49:38.500
authoritarian beliefs, and you could identify them statistically. Then the question was, what predicted
00:49:43.760
them? Okay, we found three major predictors, and we had no a priori perception about this. The first predictor
00:49:54.760
was low verbal intelligence. And so, when you ask yourself, well, how could people be daft enough to
00:50:00.920
believe such things is, well, one of the answers to that our research showed was that, well, people who
00:50:07.100
swallowed those ideologies weren't that smart. And so, they were very much likely to dominate those
00:50:14.100
academic sub-disciplines that attracted the least cognitively able people. Okay, so it was a big
00:50:20.760
predictor. The correlation between IQ and politically correct authoritarianism was higher than the
00:50:27.780
correlation between cognitive ability, IQ, and grades. It was a whopping predictor.
00:50:34.700
The next, here's, now here's the, so that's bad enough. Here's the kicker, though. There were two other
00:50:39.960
major predictors, three, actually. The first was being female.
00:50:45.140
Yeah, yeah. The second was having a female temperament. That was an additional predictor
00:50:51.720
over and above being female. The third was having ever taken a politically correct course.
00:50:56.860
Okay, so now that, you know, you pointed out that this ethos of harm avoidance, let's say,
00:51:02.800
something like that, this protective ethos started to dominate. Well, no one has been courageous enough
00:51:09.760
or foolhardy enough to broach the possibility that the reason for that is that the universities became
00:51:16.000
dominated by not only women, this is even worse, I might as well go in all the way, childless women.
00:51:23.820
Well, actually, there are a couple of papers on that, Jordan. I'm sure you've seen, I think,
00:51:28.140
Corey Clark, and I've read a couple, I think, showing basically the feminization of higher
00:51:35.920
education over the last 50 years. But there's something else listening to you that just came
00:51:40.020
into my mind. I don't know if you've read it. There's a book by a psychologist called Luke
00:51:43.360
Conway that came out, I think, a year ago, called Liberal Bullies. And what he has done,
00:51:48.280
which is fascinating, is he's gone back and looked at all the old stuff on right-wing authoritarianism
00:51:53.300
and the scales that they used comparing right-wing authoritarians with left-wing authoritarians.
00:52:00.880
And of course, the old argument, this is, you know, going back 50 years of social science,
00:52:05.740
was that you don't get left-wing authoritarians, you only get right-wing authoritarians.
00:52:11.780
It was, and the whole literature, right, has just been debunked because what Conway is saying,
00:52:16.900
well, if you actually, if you change the scales because they were measuring right-wing
00:52:21.000
authoritarianism differently from left-wing authoritarianism, if you use the same scales on both,
00:52:26.360
what you find is that so-called liberals are actually more prone to authoritarian impulses
00:52:33.700
and tendencies than conservatives. And if anything explains the last 15 years in Western politics,
00:52:41.060
the kind of great awokening, you know, all of the, you know, fanaticism and dogmatism that we saw
00:52:48.260
around Black Lives Matter and the social justice movement, it's this take. You know, I read his book
00:52:54.840
and I was like, there it is. So basically, social scientists were misleading everybody.
00:52:59.520
I would say maybe they knew about it. Maybe they were just lying to people.
00:53:02.920
And here we have evidence that if you identify as highly liberal, you are more prone to authoritarian
00:53:13.340
Okay, okay. So they were definitely at least lying by omission. Like, I got into the study of
00:53:20.080
left-wing authoritarianism sort of sideways because I'm a personality and clinical psychologist,
00:53:25.940
not a social psychologist. And the people who studied right-wing authoritarianism or authoritarianism,
00:53:32.520
let's say, were social psychologists. And so then I had to master the social psychological literature.
00:53:39.000
And I found to my absolute bloody shock what you just described, which was that for 60 years,
00:53:44.680
the social psychologists essentially had insisted that there was no such thing as left-wing
00:53:50.460
authoritarianism. And I thought, well, what do you mean there's no such thing as left-wing
00:53:54.960
authoritarianism? For Christ's sake, who the hell do you think was, who do you think Stalin was in Mao?
00:54:00.980
That's not left-wing murderous authoritarianism. And that's why we did this research.
00:54:05.680
But here's another thing that's horrible. And I don't know if Conway has dealt with this. And I
00:54:10.680
didn't know about the book, and I will read it. See, the pattern of cancel culture is the same
00:54:17.820
pattern as female antisocial behavior. So there is a literature on antisocial behavior that's sex-typed.
00:54:25.060
So antisocial males are violent. They're physically violent. And they're criminal for that regard. And
00:54:32.080
they tend to get thrown in prison because of it, because we don't tolerate violent crime.
00:54:36.340
White-collar crime's not so bad. You can defund a million people out of their pension.
00:54:40.680
But you don't want to mug someone. And, you know, I can understand that because people are afraid of
00:54:44.740
being physically assaulted. But we definitely have a differential scale of justice when it comes to
00:54:50.800
economic damage. Anyways, female antisocial types, they don't use physical aggression.
00:54:58.160
They use gossip, reputation savaging, and like camouflaged aggression. Right. And so you can imagine,
00:55:07.720
I mean, this is a very ugly hypothesis, but there's no reason to assume that
00:55:13.080
women are going to be any less pathological in their social behavior than men. It'll just take
00:55:18.340
a different form. So I was just going to say, I would say the evidence on cancel culture, you know,
00:55:23.580
comprehensive, rigorous surveys across the West is pretty consistent in showing that the female
00:55:30.600
scholars, especially young female PhD students, are consistently the most likely to endorse a range
00:55:39.100
of cancel culture measures. They're the most likely, for example, to say that we should sacrifice
00:55:43.700
academic freedom and free speech on the altar of protecting minorities from harm. So I think
00:55:50.040
that's a big part of the story. I mean, again, it's controversial. And the fact that we
00:55:53.400
would struggle to have this debate at an Oxford, you know, union debate or on Cambridge campus is
00:56:01.580
itself a reflection of the problems within universities. I think it's an enormous part.
00:56:06.660
And in politics too, by the way, I think if you look at the people who have been most dogmatic
00:56:11.340
when it comes to the debates over migration, net zero, who have refused to look at the issue of the
00:56:18.400
rape gangs, have refused to give the country a national inquiry routinely. I mean, routinely,
00:56:23.440
it's been prominent women in national political life. And I think there's also, by the way,
00:56:29.620
been a lot of hypocrisy there too. I mean, if you just take the case of the rape gangs, you know,
00:56:34.080
the whole Me Too scandal, you know, middle class liberal, middle class liberal professional women
00:56:39.020
who didn't say anything at all about young white working class girls being raped, harassed and abused
00:56:44.280
by Muslim gangs. And, you know, there's just, I think people aren't stupid. They can see a lot
00:56:48.240
of this stuff that's playing out before them. Well, it's a good thing that neither of us have
00:56:52.440
academic jobs anymore, because if we had had them, this conversation would have done them in for like
00:56:57.920
seven different reasons. Okay, let's turn back to the rape gang issue, because, you know, in for a penny,
00:57:04.420
in for a pound. And so if you don't mind, what I would like you to do is, you know, I've looked at the
00:57:10.540
rape gang issue as much as I possibly could as an outsider to the UK, right? And was shocked by it,
00:57:17.260
absolutely shocked beyond comprehension that such a thing could even be vaguely possible. I couldn't
00:57:22.500
even believe it when I first started to investigate it, which was probably about 15 years ago, by the
00:57:27.060
way. And so the first thing I'd like you to do for people who are watching and listening, and for me,
00:57:31.660
is just to, do you want to just describe what you see as the reality of the rape gang situation in
00:57:39.060
the UK? Just lay it out. You mentioned 50 cities, and up to something approximating a million
00:57:44.020
victims. So tell us, tell us what you believe to be the case in the UK with regards to these rape
00:57:51.120
gangs. Define them, and then tell us what the case is. Yeah, so the first thing I would say is that this
00:57:55.900
will go down in history, I think, as the biggest scandal in British society, one that much of the
00:58:03.420
establishment deliberately ignored and downplayed for half a century, what we are talking about, to be
00:58:10.800
clear, is the sexual exploitation of mainly young, white, working-class girls, often from very damaged,
00:58:20.380
broken homes, vulnerable girls. The organized, industrial-scale rape and sexual assault of those
00:58:27.740
girls by predominantly Pakistani Muslim gangs of men operating in alliance with one another,
00:58:37.180
trafficking those girls from one town to another, often having some kind of connections with police
00:58:45.760
social services. We have police officers who have been arrested and being brought before courts because
00:58:53.580
of their involvement with these rape gangs. And the rumors of this really began, Jordan, from the 1970s,
00:59:02.040
1980s. But it wasn't really until 2011, when one or two rogue journalists started to talk about the issue,
00:59:12.440
and some prominent political activists and campaigners too. But this was instantly branded a topic of, you know,
00:59:20.120
far-right politics. It was seen as low status to talk about it in Westminster. And then as the transcripts came out of
00:59:28.600
these girls, as the number of towns increased, as I say, upwards of 50 towns and cities across the UK, and, you know,
00:59:37.300
lots of young girls coming before court saying they were put on heroin, they were put on cocaine, they were told they
00:59:44.540
were targeted because they were white, they were non-Muslim, and they were trash, they were white prostitutes,
00:59:49.860
those are words that were used in the court transcripts. And as the evidence simply became
00:59:55.280
unavoidable, we then started to get these local inquiries into key towns like Rotherham, a town where
01:00:01.400
1,400 girls at least were raped and sexually assaulted by these gangs, towns like Oldham and Telford.
01:00:09.400
And it wasn't really until actually the beginning of 2025 that the release and the recirculation of some of
01:00:18.680
those transcripts, in conjunction with Elon Musk drawing attention to it, basically forced Westminster,
01:00:26.080
forced the elite in Britain to actually do something and talk about this crisis in a much bigger way.
01:00:33.180
But even then, they said, actually, we're not going to have a national inquiry into this issue,
01:00:39.660
which is outrageous, because this is clearly a systemic national crisis that involves social
01:00:45.140
workers, police officers, Muslim communities, gangs of men. It's been going on for 30, 40 years.
01:00:52.980
Some of these girls, by the way, have been murdered. I just want to mention a few names. Lucy Lowe,
01:00:59.720
Victoria Goglia, Charlene Downs, everyone around the world has heard of George Floyd. Nobody's heard
01:01:05.320
those names. These are girls who were murdered when they were 12, 13, 14 years of age. Like you,
01:01:13.980
I'm a father. I find this absolutely despicable. And even when, in some of these cases, even when
01:01:20.440
fathers in desperation were trying to get their daughters back, were trying to save their daughters
01:01:28.720
from these gangs, they were then arrested. They were then told that they were breaking the law.
01:01:35.900
So every aspect of this scandal is utterly hideous. And the fact that our Labour government,
01:01:41.100
you know, which has announced 25 national inquiries for other issues, cannot bring itself
01:01:45.900
to launch an inquiry this time around, also tells you a lot. It tells you that Labour is scared about
01:01:51.720
the scale of this crisis. It tells you that Labour officials are probably implicated in this crisis.
01:01:57.240
And we do know that some Labour officials have been implicated in this crisis in local towns in
01:02:03.820
England. It tells you that this crisis probably goes much deeper within the state than we currently
01:02:09.560
are being led to believe. And it tells you again, that because the victims are white working class
01:02:16.800
girls, that within the matrix of social justice ideology, which dominates many of the public sector
01:02:23.260
institutions, they are simply not seen as being fashionable or important enough to warrant the
01:02:30.240
same level of attention and concern that other groups in our society receive.
01:02:35.500
Okay, let's see if we can sort out why that is. Because you might assume that if the elites that we were
01:02:42.780
describing have a harm ethic, like a harm reduction ethic that you might associate with a maternal instinct
01:02:53.500
gone astray, that the, that a logical target for an empathic impulse like that might be underprivileged
01:03:02.040
working class girls, like it doesn't seem to stretch the bounds of credibility, unless, and you know,
01:03:09.820
I think I've maybe detected this as a strain in British society, because I'm a bit of an outsider
01:03:15.720
looking in, unless part of the motivation for the virtue signaling on the part of the people who are
01:03:22.180
ignoring this, including upper class women, is to separate themselves as much as they possibly can from
01:03:28.540
any hint whatsoever of contamination with that lower class status. Is that, I know that's a harsh
01:03:36.760
judgment, but, you know. No, I think, I think there's a lot to do with that. Yeah, I think there's a lot to do with that.
01:03:43.260
Okay, so let me add another layer to that. And again, I'm speaking as an ignorant man, you know, I'm not a
01:03:48.720
citizen of the UK, and I'm trying to sort out what the hell's going on there as an outsider. You know, I really
01:03:55.560
became aware of the grooming gangs as a consequence of my knowledge of Tommy Robinson. And I started watching him about
01:04:02.400
15 years ago, and I interviewed him last year, my wife first, and then, or my wife and I, she, it was actually
01:04:09.760
on her instigation. And then we did two interviews. And my sense with Tommy was, you know, I kind of
01:04:16.980
understand him, because I was raised in a working class environment, by the way. And so I understand what
01:04:21.460
sort of character he is. And he's also super bright. He's remarkably intelligent. And, you know, he's got a
01:04:27.800
chickered past. But my sense of Tommy Robinson, and I'm more than happy to hear your take on this,
01:04:34.080
is that he's a representative of the working class. He saw what was happening to the girls in
01:04:40.760
his community, including his own cousin, who fell prey to these gangs. And he started to make quite
01:04:46.440
the damn fuss about it. And he wasn't afraid to point fingers, particularly in the direction of the
01:04:51.660
Pakistani rape gangs. And we have to talk about the fact that they're, well, you know, because
01:04:57.660
we're already in serious trouble in seven different ways. They're Pakistani Muslim rape
01:05:02.420
gangs. That's the ones we're concentrating on. And at the moment in the UK, from what I understand,
01:05:07.760
and this has been the case for quite a while, to specify it that carefully and precisely, let's say,
01:05:13.580
opens you up to accusations of being like a far-right neo-Nazi, like Tommy Robinson, let's say. So
01:05:19.300
tell me what you think about Robinson and the reaction to him. I mean, I know people like Pierce
01:05:24.540
Morgan. I get along fine with Pierce. He's treated me great. We've had lots of good discussions.
01:05:28.860
He's certainly no fan of Tommy Robinson. And he's pilloried in the British press as a general rule.
01:05:35.240
I know there was a huge demonstration, what, last week? 100,000 people, I heard. The legacy media never
01:05:41.540
bloody well reported it. Anyways, see, tell me what you think about that mess.
01:05:46.660
So I've always found Tommy Robinson interesting for a number of reasons. We're a similar age.
01:05:52.320
He grew up in Luton, which is very close to the town. I grew up on the outskirts of somewhere called
01:06:00.440
St. Albans. I'm very, you know, he reminds me of lots of the guys I grew up with. You know,
01:06:08.860
I don't want to make it too personal. My background was somewhat similar, not stable,
01:06:13.760
certainly wasn't middle class. And so when I saw him first break through in 2009, 2010,
01:06:21.980
drawing attention to this issue, I kind of, you know, I sort of understood where he was coming
01:06:26.800
from and the anger and the frustration that was driving that. Now, where I departed from Robinson
01:06:35.560
is that I felt at the time that being so provocative, and this was between 2009 and 2013-14 with his
01:06:45.580
movement, the English Defence League, by being so provocative on the streets, I felt that he was
01:06:54.500
playing into the hands of the state, that he was becoming useful for the state, which was then saying,
01:06:59.940
well, if you talk about these issues, you're like these guys. And I think he's obviously been
01:07:07.240
on a journey. He's not the same person today that he was then. But I think the reality of Tommy
01:07:12.800
Robinson is that he would not have become a prominent, significant figure in our national
01:07:19.480
political life, which he is, were it not for the sustained failures of the British state to deal
01:07:27.500
with the issues that he has been campaigning on. Had they taken this issue seriously,
01:07:33.080
had they investigated the rumours, had they looked at the rise of radical Islamism as well,
01:07:40.320
particularly within some of the communities that Robinson knows very well, then he wouldn't have
01:07:46.560
become a significant figure. So, you know, he certainly gave voice to some of the issues that
01:07:51.880
were being ignored, as did, by the way, a few other people at the time, some renegade journalists
01:07:57.120
and so on. But I think all, I think at the same time, though, and this is a, it's a sensitive
01:08:04.200
conversation, because I think everybody who cares about this issue, you know, cares very strongly
01:08:10.520
about it, right? My view is that the only way we can change Western societies today, we can save
01:08:19.260
Western civilisation, we can reassert the values that we care about, is through the ballot box.
01:08:24.680
That's my view. That the only way forward is by appealing to a majority of concerned citizens,
01:08:31.840
by bringing together a broad coalition of people who say, actually, enough is enough. I'm not going
01:08:36.720
to have this project imposed on me anymore. I'm not going to support mass uncontrolled immigration.
01:08:41.960
I'm not going to be told that little boys can become little girls and little girls can become
01:08:45.600
little boys. I'm not going to see my country, my home be denigrated in this way. You know,
01:08:51.800
I want to push back through the ballot box. And to me, that's the only viable, alternative,
01:08:58.360
plausible way forward. It's not to say that I think these people are wrong to be highlighting
01:09:02.540
these issues. But I think if you're serious about bringing about change, changing things,
01:09:10.460
changing policy, changing government, I think the ballot box is the way forward. I don't think Britain
01:09:16.660
has the same culture as France, Italy and other countries whereby street protest is embraced or
01:09:26.640
supported. I think we have a very distinctive political culture in this country, which social
01:09:31.820
scientists have talked about from the 50s onward. We have a civic culture. We're very sceptical of
01:09:37.160
what anything that might look like it's aggressive, anything that might look like it's,
01:09:41.940
you know, challenging the rule of law. And I think ultimately, it's about what approach do you think
01:09:51.220
is really the most viable way to bring about change?
01:09:54.840
Okay, so you're okay. So if I'm reading this correctly, your criticism of Robinson would be
01:10:00.300
that he took the protest route, let's say, rather than working within a system that you still regard,
01:10:08.440
an electoral system that you regard as viable. And, you know, you have your reasons to regard it as
01:10:16.000
Let me just put it a different way. I think path dependency really matters in politics.
01:10:22.740
I think where you start determines your eventual destination. So if you start with a movement that's
01:10:29.760
very combative, provocative, that is associated with, you know, rightly or wrongly, it was associated
01:10:37.140
with drinking and conflict and fighting with cops and whatever. It's just going to be very difficult
01:10:42.400
for you to change the public perception, right? From where you start, basically determines your
01:10:47.560
eventual destination. Now, what I'm interested in, I'm interested in movements that are winning 30,
01:10:52.520
40% of the national vote, as in, I want to get things done. I want to do what Trump's doing in the US.
01:10:58.580
I want to come in and say, right, we're slashing the state. We're getting rid of DEI. We're ending
01:11:03.500
mass uncontrolled immigration. We're going to have a serious strategy for integration, right? We're
01:11:08.800
going to push back on net zero. I'm interested in that. I'm not interested in a purity spiral
01:11:14.340
over on the corner here as to, you know, who's been talking about this issue for the longest
01:11:19.840
period of time. I respect people who are ahead of the curve on issues like that. But I'm ultimately
01:11:26.080
interested in how do you actually save a country? What's the most viable way of doing that?
01:11:32.180
Look, there's two ways we could take this conversation now. And we have to kind of decide
01:11:37.140
between them because we're going to run out of time, although we have an additional half an hour
01:11:41.780
on the Daily Wire side. So what we could do, we could take apart the Pakistani Muslim immigrant issue
01:11:50.860
and see if we could discuss the separate contributions of each of those three attributes
01:11:56.320
to the rape gang phenomena, right? That's a hard thing to do, but it would be worth doing.
01:12:03.320
The other thing we could do, because I don't think we can do both, is we could further discuss
01:12:08.560
the plan that you just described or the vision that you just described in relationship, let's say,
01:12:15.220
to the Reform Party and Nigel Farage. And we could talk about how it is that you might reinvigorate
01:12:24.960
UK civil society and move it away from this virtue signaling net zero and multiculturalism idiocy.
01:12:34.480
And so do you have a preference for one of those directions?
01:12:39.600
Well, personally, I would want to focus on how we realign politics and save this country.
01:12:46.060
That's where I'm investing a lot of my effort. I have a plan for that. I think I have something that
01:12:52.320
looks pretty credible. I'm involved in the plan to try and do that. I'm speaking across the country
01:12:58.620
at many events alongside people like Nigel Farage. And I'm interested in thinking about how do we
01:13:05.260
realign this country in the way that Canada was realigned for a period of time, in the way that
01:13:10.100
America is currently being realigned? What does that actually look like? Because for the first
01:13:15.820
time in history, I think it's actually possible. As you and I are talking right now, reform is number
01:13:21.940
one in the national polls. Okay, it's on 25, 26%. It needs to really get to about 31% to win a majority
01:13:30.620
at the next election. I think that's possible. I genuinely do. I think there's so much volatility
01:13:36.240
in British politics at the moment. I think it is possible for this movement to actually
01:13:41.180
do what the Labour Party did in the early 20th century when it emerged to replace the Liberals.
01:13:46.900
I think there is an enormous opportunity for reform to do that, principally, but not only because of the
01:13:52.920
mass immigration crisis. So that's where I'm spending a lot of my time. And the rape gangs is part of
01:13:59.280
that. But to me, that's a symbol of the failure of our state policy of multiculturalism. It's a symbol
01:14:05.340
of the failure of mass immigration. And it's a symbol of this woke political correctness,
01:14:11.780
the fact that so few people were willing to talk about it, that has created this enormous vacuum
01:14:16.440
that you're seeing now playing out in the national polls.
01:14:21.120
Okay, so let's do that. Okay, so let's start by, let's start with this. So could you detail out your,
01:14:28.040
both your association with and your understanding of the, I guess we're going to concentrate on the
01:14:33.460
Reform Party in the UK and differentiate that from, well, the current Conservatives, maybe even the
01:14:39.820
classic Conservatives in the UK? So how are you associated with reform? What do you think of
01:14:45.280
Nigel Farage and what he's doing? And how would you distinguish reform from the, whatever the
01:14:52.240
Conservatives are now, the net zero Conservatives, let's say?
01:14:55.740
The Liberal Conservatives, I think probably many people in Britain would call them,
01:14:59.840
or the Uniparty. They're indistinguishable from the Labour Party. Look, I think many people in
01:15:06.460
Britain know, I mean, I'm friends with Nigel Farage. I've known him for 15 years. I'm very
01:15:12.240
sympathetic to what he's trying to do. I speak at reform party rallies and conferences. And,
01:15:19.240
you know, I have a close association with the party, because I believe fundamentally,
01:15:24.600
it's the only political movement that we have that is capable of bringing about the kind of change
01:15:33.260
this country needs to see if it is to be saved. And by that, I mean, ending mass uncontrolled,
01:15:41.840
low skill, low wage migration from outside of Europe. I mean, fixing our borders by leaving the
01:15:49.240
European Convention on Human Rights, by reforming the laws that Tony Blair brought in, including the
01:15:54.580
Human Rights Act, by dramatically reducing the 15.3 billion pounds that we spend in foreign aid
01:16:03.100
every year, and making sure that our public services work for British people before we send
01:16:09.420
money to China, India, and elsewhere. I mean, pushing back against the net zero project. And I mean,
01:16:17.320
investing in non-London areas, in places outside of the capital, and investing in people outside of
01:16:23.800
the elite minority. Now, I have come to the view, the Tories, the Conservative Party, are completely
01:16:29.340
incapable of doing those things. They are the architects of the mess that we see around us today. They are
01:16:36.060
the architects of our national decline, and the Labour Party is part of that. I do not view reform as merely a
01:16:43.960
new Conservative Party. That would be selling it short. I view reform as a none of the above party,
01:16:50.360
neither left nor right, as a party that could just as easily win over the working class in northern
01:16:57.640
England and Wales, in the industrial heartlands, as it could win over disillusioned Conservatives
01:17:02.860
in the Tory shies. Look, Jordan, I'll be honest with you. I don't think Nigel Farage has all the answers,
01:17:08.480
and I don't think the reform movement is the perfect movement. But what I think is that Britain is,
01:17:14.860
for the first time really in generations, is ideally positioned for a full-blown political
01:17:21.600
realignment. And I think Nigel Farage and reform are the vehicle that can be used to bring that about.
01:17:31.280
Okay, so let me compare and contrast your reform party agenda, let's say, with the agenda that we've
01:17:39.020
put forward, perhaps more on the philosophical side with this alliance for responsible citizenship.
01:17:44.320
We have a conference coming up in London, February 17th to 19th. We'll have about 4,000 people there.
01:17:52.140
I think that what we're aiming at has what, to some degree, they are overlapping Venn diagrams with
01:18:00.800
what reform has been proposing. So we have five major policy initiatives, six because we added an
01:18:10.000
initial, an additional one. So let me just lay those out. And I want to do that, not to advertise art
01:18:15.960
precisely, although that's, you know, handy, but to give us a structure that we can use to take apart
01:18:24.200
the reform platform. So cheap, reliable, plentiful energy in all of its forms to drive energy costs down
01:18:33.460
so we don't starve the poor people to death, let's say. Allied with something approximating
01:18:39.780
responsible environmental stewardship. But that doesn't mean nature worship. And it certainly doesn't
01:18:44.380
mean there's too goddamn many people on the planet. A rekindling of the narrative that the West is
01:18:51.820
founded on. And a restoration of appreciation for the fundamental principles that the free West is
01:18:59.280
predicated on. I'll give you an example. 100% of Protestant and Catholic majority countries outside
01:19:05.140
of Africa are highly functional Western democracies. There's a reason for that, and no one will talk
01:19:11.220
about it. And so that needs to be discussed. We're not a fan of government, media, corporation collusion.
01:19:18.560
So it's anti-fascist in the genuine sense. We're very pro-family. We don't think there are too many
01:19:25.800
people on the planet. We think that monogamous, child-centered, married couples are the appropriate
01:19:33.880
environment for children and the foundation of a civil society. And that's, well, that's basically
01:19:39.880
insofar as they're, those aren't policies, they're axioms. That's a good way of thinking about it. And so
01:19:47.460
I'm wondering perhaps what you think of those, but also more specifically, how you see that in
01:19:53.320
relationship to what the Reform Party is doing, maybe even what the Trump administration is doing
01:19:58.000
in the United States. Well, the first thing I would say is congratulations, Jordan, you are a reformer.
01:20:04.060
If you believe all of those things, then you share the platform of reform. And I look forward to seeing
01:20:09.800
you at ARC. But in my mind, there are two principles that differentiate this movement from what we might
01:20:15.000
call the Uniparty, in my mind. And I'm not speaking in an official capacity for reform. The first is the
01:20:22.020
principle of popular sovereignty. I think reform believes that the true source of power, authority and
01:20:28.580
legitimacy lies not with a distant elite, but with the people. I believe that ultimately, the relationship
01:20:37.180
in politics that matters is vertical. It runs from the people to those they elect to represent them on
01:20:45.220
their behalf. It does not run horizontally from one group of elites in Westminster to another group of
01:20:51.580
elites in Davos to another group of elites in Washington. So I believe foremost in the principle
01:20:56.760
of popular sovereignty. That's what got things like Brexit over the line. And that's what will get many
01:21:01.440
other common sense positions over the line. The second principle that I think unites reformers and
01:21:07.120
certainly is something I believe in is the principle of national preference. Namely, that in every aspect of
01:21:13.560
our country, our country, our home, I believe from housing to the economy, to our culture, identity and
01:21:20.020
history, that the people of that country should ultimately be prioritized. That if limited housing
01:21:28.160
is available, if limited places on the National Health Service are available, if we have money, we should
01:21:34.560
focus on fixing our home before helping other parts of the world. That's not to say we don't want to help
01:21:40.700
other parts of the world. It's just about the ranking and the order of preference. Those are the two
01:21:45.260
principles that I think put the reform movement clearly apart from the uniparty because both the
01:21:52.340
Labour Party and the Tory Party have shown consistently that they don't respect the values and the voice of
01:21:59.080
ordinary people. And they have shown quite clearly that they don't have much of an interest in
01:22:04.800
prioritizing and protecting our home and the things that make our home distinctive, its identity, its
01:22:11.140
culture, and its sense of collective memory or its history. So to me, you know, reform is a common
01:22:18.060
sense position. Almost all of its policies, from migration to the borders, to the economy, almost all of
01:22:27.340
them are supported by large majorities of people. And they used to be advocated by mainstream politicians.
01:22:32.780
It's just, as I say, the elite class has drifted so far to the cultural left. You know, we had a survey
01:22:37.960
recently in Britain by some social scientists, and they found that Labour and Tory MPs are closer
01:22:45.000
together ideologically than Tory MPs are to the average voter, right? In other words, the Conservative
01:22:52.480
movement have moved so far to the cultural left that they've basically abandoned ordinary voters.
01:22:58.560
They're indistinguishable, basically, from their Labour colleagues. Now, nobody could say that
01:23:03.980
about reform MPs. They are bang on, basically, where the average voter is on these big cultural
01:23:11.500
and identity questions. So that's how I see it. And I see it's a correction to a system that has become
01:23:20.620
I should have pointed out, too, given what you just said, that one of the primary focuses of ARC
01:23:27.840
as well, and this overlaps with the principles that you just laid out, is the principle of
01:23:32.680
responsible citizenship, hence the name Alliance of Responsible Citizens. And it is predicated on the
01:23:39.420
idea that sovereignty properly inherits in the people, and that society not only can't be,
01:23:48.060
but shouldn't be governed by top-down elitist rule by, let's say, force, compulsion, and fear,
01:23:54.240
that ordinary people aren't so ordinary, and that they have to, that it would be best, all things
01:24:00.500
considered, for them to adopt responsibility for their own sovereignty and to govern their own affairs.
01:24:06.600
That's partly an emergent consequence of the principle of subsidiarity, which is an ancient
01:24:12.520
doctrine of social order that has been classically viewed as the alternative to tyranny and
01:24:17.980
slavery. And so, okay, and so that's in keeping with your, well, your, let's say, something like
01:24:24.240
a return to the people, which is a deep, obviously, a deep British tradition, maybe the deepest of
01:24:29.780
British traditions, and something that you Brits have given to the world, most fundamentally. It'd
01:24:37.400
But I'll just say, just about the conversation that you're sparking with ARC, you know, you have to
01:24:42.160
understand, Jordan, that that is essentially the only place that is having that conversation
01:24:47.700
here in the UK. I mean, if you look at the long-term forecast of where we are headed as a country,
01:24:53.520
by 2100, you know, our fertility rate is forecast to be 1.3, you know, well below the replacement level
01:24:59.980
of 2.1. It's currently at about 1.6 at the moment. We also now know that between today and 2047,
01:25:09.300
which again, isn't really that far away, 22 years, our population is forecast to grow by another 10
01:25:15.180
million people, obviously all of whom will come from outside of the UK. Migration is the only driver,
01:25:22.860
it is the only driver of population growth in this country, because more people are now dying than
01:25:28.440
being born among the British population. So migration is the only driver of population growth,
01:25:33.880
while our fertility rate is collapsing. So what I'm saying is, if you want to have a conversation
01:25:40.000
about pro-family policy, okay, what does that look like? How can we support families outside of,
01:25:44.900
you know, tinkering with the tax system? How could we actually radically have, bring about a pro-family
01:25:51.300
culture, right? And people say, oh, you can't do that. Well, I say, well, look what they did with
01:25:54.960
smoking. I mean, look at how, you know, that changed the culture, right? You've suddenly convinced
01:25:59.120
everybody. Israel has done it. Israel has done it. Now, interestingly, Israel has had a lot more
01:26:04.980
success than countries like Poland and Hungary, also countries I know well. Now, how has Israel done
01:26:09.940
it? Israel's done it by making it clear that actually the survival of the nation, the survival
01:26:16.120
of the people is dependent upon them, all assuming responsibility and playing a role in that enterprise.
01:26:22.920
Now, somehow Western nations have to come up with something similar, something that is existential,
01:26:31.140
that appeals to the soul and appeals to that sense of responsibility, because I don't think tax changes
01:26:36.940
and all that stuff are really going to do it. But again, family, so that conversation is happening
01:26:40.940
at ARC. It's not happening with our mainstream political elite. The effects of migration, they're not
01:26:47.580
talking about the evidence that is being accumulated, that is showing this is going to be a disaster
01:26:51.780
over the next 10, 20, 30 years. What we're doing, like Canada, is we are pushing our country into a
01:26:58.820
population trap. And what do I mean by that? I mean that we are basically pushing ourselves into a
01:27:04.860
position whereby the capacity of the state to provide basic public services is being overwhelmed by the
01:27:13.600
sheer scale of demographic change. That's a population trap. So if you cannot provide basic health
01:27:19.740
services, basic housing, if you cannot keep people safe on their streets, and you're being sort of flooded
01:27:25.960
with demographic change, well, you know, welcome to a disaster, because that is what is unfolding, not just
01:27:31.820
here, but also, by the way, in countries like Sweden. I mean, most of your viewers, I suspect, won't know this,
01:27:36.820
but since Christmas, you know, we're speaking in February 2025. In the last month, there have been more than
01:27:42.740
30 bombings in Sweden. 30 bombings in Sweden. Right. None of that's covered with the weather legacy.
01:27:48.900
None of that's in the mainstream media. So again, you know, conversations that are being had,
01:27:55.220
thankfully, in this new ecosystem of podcasts, of shows, of Daily Wire, new universities,
01:28:01.460
that is one of the reasons, one of the few reasons why I am actually optimistic, because we are now
01:28:06.600
beginning to force a conversation about family policy, about the rape gangs, about the future
01:28:13.180
of the West, about how we reframe our understanding of our history, about how we, you know, share a sense
01:28:21.100
of patriotism and a belief in the values that have driven this thing we love called Western
01:28:28.140
civilization. That's one of the only reasons I'm actually optimistic that this new ecosystem
01:28:33.720
has taken off to the extent that it has done. All right. Well, okay. First, I'm looking forward
01:28:41.800
to continuing the conversation at ARC in mid-February. And it is a conversation because we're trying to
01:28:48.120
figure out how to move toward the implementation of these, let's say, broad-scale philosophical visions
01:28:55.280
that we're putting forward. And there's obviously a conversation to be had, well, I think, with the
01:29:00.140
conservatives, as well as with reform, but certainly with reform. And, you know, I'm certainly attending
01:29:06.500
very carefully to your concerns about the capture of the conservatives, because the fact that they're
01:29:11.780
still promoting net zero seems to me to indicate quite likely that that capture is pretty complete.
01:29:17.640
But in any case, we've got many things to talk about, and there is some reason for optimism.
01:29:22.100
I think maybe what we'll do on the Daily Wire side, for those of you who are watching and listening,
01:29:26.300
is I think maybe we'll return to the issue of the rape gangs, because there's some more
01:29:30.220
delving into that I'd like to do, both on the pessimistic and the optimistic side, because I'd
01:29:35.980
like to take apart the contributing factors on the side of the perpetrators, like just exactly who are
01:29:43.640
they and why are they doing what they're doing, apart from, you know, issues of pure, unadulterated lust
01:29:50.280
with some, you know, with some genuine sadism mixed in there. So I think we'll do that on the
01:29:56.420
Daily Wire side. Apart from that, I'd like to thank you for talking to me today and for being so
01:30:02.020
forthright. That's a hell of a conversation to have to have. There's so many terrible things to
01:30:07.320
delve into, and I'm looking forward to seeing you at ARC. Thanks, Jordan. Looking forward to seeing
01:30:12.920
you as well. Yeah, much appreciated. And to all of you watching and listening on the YouTube side,
01:30:18.720
thank you very much for your time and attention. Thanks to the Daily Wire for making this possible.
01:30:23.720
The film crew here in D.C. I'm in D.C. today at the prayer breakfast. And, well, we'll continue
01:30:31.280
our conversation for another 30 minutes behind the Daily Wire paywall.