The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 523. Why We Dream, Learn, and Adapt Faster Than Any Other Species

00:00:00.000 The conscious brain is a broom closet in the mansion of the brain

00:00:04.320 with very little access to what's going on.

00:00:06.740 There may be free will, but it's going to be a small player if it's there.

00:00:10.240 Every drive wants to philosophize in its spirit.

00:00:13.700 Exactly. Okay, so let's unpack that.

00:00:15.820 If you understand that aim constrains entropy,

00:00:18.860 then you get some sense almost immediately

00:00:21.440 why people cling so desperately to their frameworks.

00:00:24.600 This doesn't answer the free will question, though.

00:00:26.680 I thought we could walk through perception

00:00:28.480 because it doesn't work the way people think it does.

00:00:30.960 You know, when it comes to this question of truth,

00:00:32.900 there is no singular truth

00:00:34.440 because you've got a completely different set of experiences

00:00:37.340 of your brain, my brain, everyone's brain.

00:00:39.400 We're all going to perceive different things

00:00:41.520 and seek different things from the world.

00:00:43.380 You said something else, too,

00:00:44.620 that I don't think I've thought about exactly before.

00:00:58.480 Hello, everybody.

00:01:04.560 I had the opportunity to speak to David Eagleman today.

00:01:08.040 David is an adjunct professor of psychiatry at Stanford University.

00:01:13.040 He doesn't run a lab there anymore

00:01:14.580 because he runs two companies,

00:01:16.800 Neosensory and BrainCheck.

00:01:18.940 David recently did a course for Peterson Academy

00:01:21.280 called Brain Plasticity,

00:01:22.820 and in the largest sense,

00:01:24.920 that's what we talked about today.

00:01:26.840 Plasticity, to some degree, is an archaic term

00:01:29.180 and based on an archaic metaphor,

00:01:31.200 but it's been well adopted,

00:01:33.360 thoroughly adopted in the neuroscience literature,

00:01:35.320 and it means something like adaptive flexibility.

00:01:38.340 And human beings are unique

00:01:41.180 in their degree of adaptive flexibility.

00:01:43.820 Now, the advantage to that is

00:01:46.260 that we can change our environment

00:01:48.820 and we can change our perceptions

00:01:50.260 and we can adapt each generation

00:01:52.760 to a radically new environment,

00:01:54.160 and the price we pay for that

00:01:55.620 is an intensely long period of socialization.

00:01:59.680 And so we talked about brain architecture.

00:02:02.480 We talked about brain chemistry.

00:02:04.440 We talked about the role of aim and intent,

00:02:09.020 the role that aim and intent plays

00:02:11.680 in determining perception,

00:02:13.160 which is a very interesting philosophical issue

00:02:15.680 because, what would you say,

00:02:18.480 the enlightenment view of the world,

00:02:20.640 the empiric sys view,

00:02:21.820 was that we create our structures of reality

00:02:27.140 by aggregating something like objective data.

00:02:30.600 But the science of perception

00:02:32.660 casts a dim light on that presumption

00:02:36.000 because we prioritize our perceptions

00:02:38.060 and we do that using our aim.

00:02:39.880 And so we don't have perceptions

00:02:41.260 that are devoid of value.

00:02:43.380 And so we talked about that a lot as well.

00:02:46.080 And so if you're interested

00:02:47.920 in a walkthrough brain science

00:02:50.420 from the structural perspective,

00:02:52.360 the philosophical perspective,

00:02:53.960 the neurochemical perspective to some degree,

00:02:56.160 if you're interested in perception

00:02:57.680 and emotion and motivation and drive

00:03:00.040 and the competition of personalities

00:03:03.000 and motivational states in the psyche,

00:03:04.960 then this is the podcast for you.

00:03:07.660 So you just recorded a course

00:03:09.520 for Peterson Academy.

00:03:11.200 I did.

00:03:12.040 Yep.

00:03:12.260 It's on brain plasticity,

00:03:13.760 which is really my favorite topic.

00:03:16.100 It's about how brains absorb the world around them

00:03:20.060 and adapt to them.

00:03:21.960 And, you know,

00:03:22.520 the interesting part about this

00:03:23.640 is that we are the only species

00:03:25.000 that is as plastic as we are.

00:03:27.480 So, you know,

00:03:28.560 you see a zebra get born

00:03:29.940 and in 45 minutes it's running around

00:03:31.980 or a dolphin is swimming

00:03:33.140 after a few minutes of being born.

00:03:35.840 But if you see a homosapien get born,

00:03:38.500 they're not doing it as quickly.

00:03:40.100 And the reason is Mother Nature

00:03:42.020 essentially came up with a different trick with us

00:03:44.320 where she drops us into the world half-baked

00:03:47.120 and we absorb the world around us,

00:03:49.220 our language, our culture,

00:03:51.280 all, you know,

00:03:52.220 we take everything that's happened before us

00:03:54.780 and we springboard off the top of that.

00:03:56.600 And this is the reason why

00:03:58.020 homosapiens has taken over the planet

00:04:00.420 and been so successful

00:04:02.060 because we,

00:04:04.500 unlike a horse that's essentially living

00:04:06.280 the same life that horses have

00:04:07.860 for, you know,

00:04:09.340 for generations,

00:04:10.200 we are living different lives every time.

00:04:13.160 So that's what brain plasticity is about.

00:04:16.040 And I actually,

00:04:18.160 I actually don't use the word plasticity

00:04:20.060 as much anymore

00:04:20.780 because that was a term

00:04:22.600 originally coined by William James

00:04:24.180 because he was impressed

00:04:26.080 by plastic manufacturing.

00:04:27.880 You could, you know,

00:04:29.580 mold something into shape

00:04:30.480 and it would hold that shape.

00:04:31.840 And he said,

00:04:32.940 that's kind of what brains do.

00:04:34.080 You know,

00:04:34.660 you learn the name

00:04:35.620 of your fourth grade teacher

00:04:36.900 and that gets written down

00:04:39.140 and retained.

00:04:40.040 So he called that plasticity.

00:04:41.900 But what we're looking at

00:04:43.440 is a system of such complexity.

00:04:45.300 We've got 86 billion neurons.

00:04:47.060 We've got, you know,

00:04:48.080 200 trillion synaptic connections.

00:04:50.660 And every moment of your life,

00:04:52.400 this forest of neurons

00:04:53.980 is reconfiguring and changing.

00:04:56.540 And so I tend to call this live wiring

00:04:58.940 instead of plasticity

00:05:00.040 only because I think

00:05:00.820 the days of being impressed

00:05:02.360 by plastic manufacturing

00:05:03.600 are past us now.

00:05:05.000 We're,

00:05:05.400 what we're looking at

00:05:07.540 is a system that,

00:05:08.920 you know,

00:05:09.600 every second of your life

00:05:10.880 from cradle to grave

00:05:11.960 is reconfiguring

00:05:13.320 to represent the world around you

00:05:14.880 and all of your experiences

00:05:16.440 and all of your memories.

00:05:17.980 Let's talk about perception.

00:05:20.220 I was reading,

00:05:21.620 let me just,

00:05:23.060 a secret incognito,

00:05:24.400 the secret lives of the brain.

00:05:25.720 And you spend

00:05:26.420 a fair bit of time

00:05:28.040 in that book

00:05:28.840 talking about perception.

00:05:30.820 And so I thought

00:05:32.340 we could walk through perception

00:05:33.920 because it's,

00:05:35.280 it doesn't work

00:05:35.880 the way people think it does.

00:05:37.600 And the fact

00:05:39.100 that it doesn't work

00:05:39.900 the way people think it does

00:05:41.220 has,

00:05:41.940 I think,

00:05:43.020 profound philosophical implications.

00:05:45.080 So I want to

00:05:46.320 walk through some ideas

00:05:47.680 that I've been developing

00:05:48.920 with you

00:05:50.000 and see what,

00:05:50.680 what you think about them.

00:05:52.140 So one of the things

00:05:52.920 you pointed out,

00:05:53.640 for example,

00:05:54.080 in the book

00:05:54.500 was that

00:05:54.980 if you get people

00:05:56.500 to look at a painting,

00:05:58.860 which you might think

00:06:00.880 of as a process

00:06:02.520 akin to

00:06:03.400 what a camera does

00:06:06.100 when it takes a photograph,

00:06:07.800 but you ask them

00:06:09.140 different questions

00:06:10.180 about the people

00:06:10.940 in the photograph.

00:06:12.540 So if I remember correctly,

00:06:14.340 the example you used

00:06:15.660 was

00:06:15.940 a picture of a family

00:06:17.640 in a domestic scene

00:06:20.160 in a house.

00:06:20.740 and you could ask them,

00:06:22.860 people who are watching,

00:06:24.020 who are looking at the painting,

00:06:25.400 what

00:06:27.260 those people were doing

00:06:29.100 just before the painting

00:06:30.200 image was

00:06:31.240 fabricated,

00:06:32.140 or you could ask them

00:06:32.920 how wealthy they are,

00:06:34.040 or you could ask them

00:06:34.820 how old they are.

00:06:36.620 And while you're doing that,

00:06:38.000 you can track

00:06:38.820 the movements

00:06:39.420 of the viewer's eyes.

00:06:41.140 And what you see

00:06:42.320 is that

00:06:43.100 the pattern of

00:06:44.420 visual movement,

00:06:46.040 so of eye movement,

00:06:48.020 is

00:06:48.440 similar across

00:06:50.320 people

00:06:50.700 depending on

00:06:51.680 the question

00:06:52.280 that's asked,

00:06:53.360 but different

00:06:54.240 in consequence

00:06:55.400 of the question.

00:06:56.400 So for example,

00:06:57.100 if you ask people

00:06:58.460 how rich

00:06:59.440 the people

00:07:01.160 in the photograph are,

00:07:02.120 they'll look at

00:07:02.560 the clothing

00:07:03.060 and the material objects

00:07:04.080 in the painting,

00:07:04.640 and if you ask them

00:07:05.280 how old they are,

00:07:06.560 they'll gaze

00:07:07.020 at their faces.

00:07:08.540 And a painting isn't,

00:07:10.480 when you're looking

00:07:11.020 at a painting,

00:07:11.920 it isn't necessarily

00:07:12.800 that big an object,

00:07:14.480 but there's still

00:07:15.660 pinpoint perceptions

00:07:17.240 that have a pattern

00:07:18.360 that are,

00:07:19.300 and the pattern

00:07:20.380 reveals the relationship

00:07:22.340 between the goal

00:07:24.040 of the perception

00:07:24.960 and the perception.

00:07:26.140 I've got that,

00:07:26.880 have I got that right?

00:07:27.740 That's exactly right.

00:07:28.760 And so,

00:07:29.620 the key is,

00:07:30.420 if you ask these people

00:07:31.760 if they did anything

00:07:33.940 different

00:07:34.460 while answering

00:07:35.760 the question,

00:07:36.640 they won't have any idea.

00:07:38.080 But their eyes are like

00:07:39.500 on a covert operation

00:07:41.560 doing the thing.

00:07:42.580 So as you know,

00:07:43.240 of course,

00:07:43.680 eyes jump around

00:07:44.840 about three times a second,

00:07:46.000 those are called saccades,

00:07:46.800 and then in between

00:07:47.880 there's little micro saccades.

00:07:49.540 But the point is,

00:07:50.420 we're not aware

00:07:51.120 of that at all.

00:07:51.960 So when your brain

00:07:53.020 is going out

00:07:53.860 to seek the answer

00:07:54.680 to a question,

00:07:56.440 it's running its mission

00:07:59.000 and it's looking

00:07:59.840 at all the points

00:08:00.900 and pieces

00:08:01.380 that it needs to

00:08:02.300 to gather the information.

00:08:03.900 But we consciously

00:08:04.880 are totally unaware

00:08:05.700 of that.

00:08:06.760 And this,

00:08:07.140 of course,

00:08:07.360 is representative

00:08:08.020 of most of perception.

00:08:11.160 We don't know

00:08:11.900 how we're gathering

00:08:12.940 the data,

00:08:13.660 but this is what we do.

00:08:14.940 In fact,

00:08:15.540 so what my book

00:08:16.160 Incognito was about,

00:08:17.120 of course,

00:08:17.440 was that almost everything

00:08:19.440 in the brain

00:08:19.880 is happening unconsciously.

00:08:21.220 You just don't have

00:08:21.680 any access to it

00:08:22.620 and really no awareness

00:08:23.520 or acquaintance

00:08:24.200 with it either.

00:08:26.120 And this is just

00:08:27.000 a good example

00:08:27.920 of that.

00:08:29.120 You used a couple

00:08:29.880 of words

00:08:30.340 that were interesting

00:08:31.140 in that description.

00:08:32.260 You talked about

00:08:33.040 being,

00:08:35.740 you said something

00:08:37.140 approximating,

00:08:37.920 being on a mission

00:08:38.880 to answer a question.

00:08:41.740 And then you talked

00:08:42.560 about data.

00:08:43.460 And so I want to take

00:08:44.620 those two things apart.

00:08:46.080 So one of the

00:08:47.940 sub-elements

00:08:49.180 of the word question

00:08:50.960 is quest.

00:08:52.580 And a quest

00:08:53.380 is a journey.

00:08:54.660 And a journey

00:08:55.420 is a mission.

00:08:56.920 Now,

00:08:57.620 there's a big difference

00:08:58.820 between being on a mission

00:09:00.100 and gathering data.

00:09:02.020 Now,

00:09:02.200 like the empirical view

00:09:03.440 of the world,

00:09:04.240 I think we'll stick

00:09:05.020 with the empiricists

00:09:06.020 particularly.

00:09:06.860 The empiricists

00:09:07.520 believe that

00:09:08.280 we gathered

00:09:09.700 data about the world

00:09:11.180 and that we could

00:09:12.320 do that in an

00:09:13.040 objective manner

00:09:14.000 and that we built

00:09:15.140 the world

00:09:15.660 out of that

00:09:17.240 data-gathering process.

00:09:19.220 But that's not

00:09:20.220 the same.

00:09:21.040 It's really

00:09:21.660 seriously

00:09:22.440 not the same

00:09:23.520 as answering

00:09:25.200 a question

00:09:25.800 or being on

00:09:26.620 a quest,

00:09:27.540 taking a journey

00:09:28.340 or being on

00:09:29.580 a mission

00:09:30.020 because a mission

00:09:31.500 is goal-directed.

00:09:32.660 And I've been

00:09:33.860 trying to work out

00:09:34.820 a paradox

00:09:35.780 in recent years

00:09:37.140 that emerges

00:09:38.060 because of

00:09:38.680 the difference

00:09:39.740 in those two

00:09:40.300 viewpoints.

00:09:41.940 Data,

00:09:42.720 and you use

00:09:43.580 both those

00:09:44.140 metaphors

00:09:44.680 in your analysis

00:09:46.200 of the eye

00:09:46.960 movement patterns,

00:09:48.320 data implies

00:09:49.180 something

00:09:49.700 directly

00:09:51.080 that's value-free,

00:09:52.480 but mission

00:09:53.440 implies value.

00:09:55.660 It's definitely

00:09:56.260 a mission.

00:09:57.140 Yeah, okay.

00:09:57.820 So in this case,

00:09:58.960 you're asking a question

00:09:59.960 about the painting

00:10:00.760 and the subject

00:10:01.880 is trying to

00:10:02.520 answer that.

00:10:03.480 But this is true

00:10:04.400 for all of us

00:10:05.360 in all cases.

00:10:06.040 Let's imagine

00:10:06.520 you're on a

00:10:07.340 hike with friends

00:10:08.720 here in Phoenix

00:10:10.420 and you guys

00:10:12.120 are walking along

00:10:13.140 and one of your

00:10:14.220 friends is a

00:10:15.120 mycologist.

00:10:16.140 So he notices

00:10:16.960 the mushrooms

00:10:17.900 that you don't

00:10:19.080 notice.

00:10:19.460 And your other

00:10:19.860 friend is a

00:10:20.400 climatologist

00:10:21.120 and so he's

00:10:21.800 noticing the

00:10:23.040 tree line

00:10:24.140 and where

00:10:24.900 things have

00:10:25.440 changed.

00:10:26.000 And you've got

00:10:26.340 a friend

00:10:27.100 who's a podiatrist

00:10:28.060 and she's noticing

00:10:28.780 the angle of

00:10:29.540 your feet

00:10:30.380 and so on.

00:10:31.080 The point is

00:10:31.540 that all the

00:10:32.920 data is hitting

00:10:33.780 all of your

00:10:34.460 eyes,

00:10:35.100 but you guys

00:10:35.500 are seeing

00:10:36.080 different things.

00:10:36.980 You're seeing,

00:10:37.560 you're having

00:10:37.820 different experiences

00:10:38.660 in the world

00:10:39.060 predicated on

00:10:40.380 what questions

00:10:41.280 you're asking.

00:10:42.000 And that,

00:10:42.340 of course,

00:10:42.560 is predicated

00:10:43.060 on who you

00:10:44.680 are,

00:10:44.940 all of your

00:10:45.420 experiences

00:10:46.080 and what is

00:10:46.560 relevant to you.

00:10:48.060 And all your

00:10:48.740 various aims.

00:10:50.160 Yeah, well,

00:10:50.520 so this is

00:10:51.040 the reason I

00:10:52.200 focused in on

00:10:53.000 the philosophical

00:10:53.600 implications of

00:10:54.640 this is because

00:10:55.440 the empiricists,

00:10:57.300 the philosophical

00:10:58.000 implication

00:10:58.900 of the idea

00:11:00.320 of data

00:11:01.160 as reality

00:11:02.160 is that

00:11:03.520 reality itself

00:11:05.400 is value-free

00:11:06.940 and value is

00:11:07.940 added to the

00:11:08.880 data.

00:11:09.660 But mission

00:11:10.980 is a whole

00:11:11.800 different way

00:11:12.500 of conceptualizing

00:11:13.480 things because

00:11:14.200 if the basis

00:11:17.020 of data

00:11:17.640 is perception

00:11:18.480 and perception

00:11:19.680 is mission-driven,

00:11:21.680 then insofar

00:11:22.960 as perception

00:11:23.640 is reality,

00:11:25.020 reality is not

00:11:26.380 value-free.

00:11:27.440 and that's

00:11:28.520 at the level

00:11:29.000 of perception,

00:11:29.840 right?

00:11:30.040 So this is

00:11:30.540 why the difference

00:11:32.180 is so crucial

00:11:32.920 because the

00:11:34.020 empirical presumption

00:11:35.000 is the data

00:11:36.260 is there,

00:11:37.060 you add value

00:11:37.780 to it.

00:11:38.220 It's like,

00:11:38.580 no,

00:11:39.640 the value is

00:11:40.260 built into

00:11:40.680 the perception,

00:11:41.700 right?

00:11:42.240 And there's

00:11:42.600 no place

00:11:43.240 in the perception

00:11:44.060 where the value

00:11:44.800 isn't built in.

00:11:46.060 You talked about

00:11:46.820 those micro,

00:11:48.400 so when your

00:11:49.460 eyes move,

00:11:50.100 how many different

00:11:51.100 levels of saccades

00:11:52.400 are there?

00:11:53.020 There's the big

00:11:53.700 ones about three

00:11:54.260 times a second,

00:11:55.060 and then there's

00:11:55.460 the micro saccades

00:11:56.220 which are always

00:11:56.740 moving.

00:11:57.100 That's for a

00:11:57.540 slightly different

00:11:57.940 reasoning.

00:11:58.380 Right,

00:11:58.660 and then you

00:11:59.160 can also move

00:11:59.840 your eyes

00:12:00.260 voluntarily.

00:12:01.540 So there's

00:12:02.620 lots of

00:12:03.180 patterns of

00:12:03.880 eye movements.

00:12:04.320 There's smooth

00:12:04.860 eye,

00:12:05.340 exactly,

00:12:05.900 smooth pursuit

00:12:06.400 eye movements

00:12:06.920 when you're

00:12:07.420 following something.

00:12:08.540 Right.

00:12:08.940 Yeah,

00:12:09.120 exactly.

00:12:09.520 Right,

00:12:09.720 and then the

00:12:10.100 fact that I

00:12:10.560 can do this

00:12:11.140 and then I

00:12:11.520 can do this.

00:12:12.320 Sure.

00:12:12.600 And then also

00:12:13.720 one of the

00:12:14.640 things that's

00:12:15.080 interesting about

00:12:15.840 you could say

00:12:17.120 the perception

00:12:17.840 of perception

00:12:18.580 is that we're

00:12:19.900 very much

00:12:21.020 inclined to

00:12:22.300 watch other

00:12:23.260 people's eyes.

00:12:24.360 Like generally

00:12:25.000 when we're

00:12:25.440 conversing with

00:12:26.080 people,

00:12:26.640 when we're

00:12:26.980 interacting with

00:12:27.720 them,

00:12:28.040 we see their

00:12:28.900 eyes and we

00:12:29.420 can see their

00:12:30.460 face,

00:12:31.020 although somewhat

00:12:32.060 less their whole

00:12:32.820 head,

00:12:33.160 but at least

00:12:33.540 their face,

00:12:34.440 which is an

00:12:34.920 emotional display

00:12:35.660 system around

00:12:36.360 the eyes.

00:12:37.500 And the reason

00:12:38.160 that we want to

00:12:38.800 watch someone's

00:12:39.380 eyes is because

00:12:40.080 we can see what

00:12:40.780 they're looking at

00:12:41.440 and the reason

00:12:42.580 we want to do

00:12:43.100 that is because

00:12:43.780 we can infer

00:12:44.520 their mission,

00:12:45.900 right?

00:12:46.120 Exactly.

00:12:46.480 We can infer

00:12:46.960 their motivations,

00:12:47.940 which is crucially

00:12:48.580 important,

00:12:49.240 well,

00:12:49.740 if you're in a

00:12:51.300 defensive situation

00:12:52.200 or a sexual

00:12:52.840 situation or,

00:12:53.980 well,

00:12:54.420 any situation

00:12:55.260 for that matter.

00:12:56.540 And so,

00:12:57.360 by watching

00:12:58.000 someone's eyes,

00:12:58.780 you can infer

00:12:59.360 their mission.

00:13:00.660 But one of the

00:13:01.560 corollaries of

00:13:02.640 all of that on

00:13:03.760 the philosophical

00:13:04.360 side is that

00:13:05.460 this is such a

00:13:06.880 bizarre thing to

00:13:07.640 understand,

00:13:08.180 is that our

00:13:09.380 aims structure

00:13:10.900 our perceptions,

00:13:12.780 right?

00:13:13.060 So,

00:13:13.220 I've been

00:13:14.680 separating that.

00:13:15.620 I want you to

00:13:16.260 tell me what you

00:13:16.800 think about this.

00:13:17.580 So,

00:13:18.400 I came up with

00:13:19.580 a hypothesis when

00:13:20.600 I was writing my

00:13:21.260 last book,

00:13:22.360 which is that

00:13:23.300 a story

00:13:24.780 is a description,

00:13:27.260 you could say,

00:13:27.840 a story is a

00:13:28.540 description of

00:13:29.780 the value

00:13:31.940 hierarchy that

00:13:32.720 structures perception.

00:13:34.020 That's actually

00:13:34.500 what a story is.

00:13:36.140 And so,

00:13:36.600 part of the reason

00:13:37.280 that we're so

00:13:37.820 interested in

00:13:38.500 stories is

00:13:39.080 because,

00:13:40.440 as you pointed

00:13:41.760 out,

00:13:42.300 when you look

00:13:42.740 at the world,

00:13:43.260 there's many,

00:13:44.100 many ways you

00:13:44.620 could look at

00:13:45.020 any scene.

00:13:45.740 Many,

00:13:46.240 an infinite

00:13:46.680 number of

00:13:47.200 ways,

00:13:47.480 in fact.

00:13:48.260 So,

00:13:48.640 you have to

00:13:48.960 navigate your

00:13:49.660 way through

00:13:50.100 every glance,

00:13:51.800 and the

00:13:53.220 structure of

00:13:53.860 navigation you

00:13:54.800 use determines

00:13:56.020 the purpose of

00:13:56.720 the perception,

00:13:57.600 but it's also

00:13:58.380 a strategy.

00:13:59.320 And so,

00:13:59.640 if I know

00:14:00.160 your story,

00:14:01.060 and I can see

00:14:01.700 that you're

00:14:02.080 successful,

00:14:03.100 then I can

00:14:03.980 adopt your

00:14:04.680 mode of

00:14:05.240 perception,

00:14:06.340 right?

00:14:06.540 It's not

00:14:06.900 your mode of

00:14:07.580 adding value

00:14:08.500 to the world.

00:14:09.160 It's way more

00:14:09.680 fundamental than

00:14:10.480 that.

00:14:11.000 Is that,

00:14:11.480 does that?

00:14:12.300 Yeah,

00:14:12.560 tell me what you

00:14:12.980 mean by adding

00:14:13.820 value to the

00:14:14.440 world.

00:14:15.160 Well,

00:14:15.360 you could think

00:14:15.800 of the world

00:14:16.360 as a place

00:14:17.040 of dead

00:14:17.520 facts,

00:14:18.360 that they're

00:14:19.240 all equally

00:14:20.000 perceivable.

00:14:20.740 it's like,

00:14:21.220 it's like,

00:14:21.300 well,

00:14:21.560 no,

00:14:22.060 because perception

00:14:22.840 is value

00:14:23.360 based.

00:14:24.400 Like,

00:14:25.100 because we've

00:14:25.700 always thought

00:14:26.320 in some ways

00:14:27.240 folk psychology

00:14:28.060 is perception

00:14:29.720 first,

00:14:30.920 right?

00:14:31.200 And then it's

00:14:31.820 motivation or

00:14:32.760 emotion after

00:14:33.540 that,

00:14:33.960 let's say,

00:14:34.520 and then it's

00:14:35.220 cognition,

00:14:36.320 and that,

00:14:37.020 and sort of in

00:14:37.740 a linear chain,

00:14:39.000 and that turns

00:14:39.680 out to be,

00:14:40.620 like,

00:14:41.020 it's staggering,

00:14:42.020 it's not just

00:14:42.540 wrong,

00:14:43.060 it's staggeringly

00:14:43.860 wrong,

00:14:44.240 because the values

00:14:46.060 inform the

00:14:47.660 perception so deeply

00:14:48.720 that in many ways

00:14:49.780 they determine

00:14:50.320 the content

00:14:50.900 of the perception

00:14:51.640 as we were

00:14:52.540 talking about

00:14:52.940 with regards

00:14:53.400 to the painting.

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00:15:56.380 Yes, yeah,

00:16:01.360 that's absolutely

00:16:01.820 right.

00:16:02.400 And the fascinating

00:16:03.420 part is that all

00:16:04.360 this is happening

00:16:05.040 unconsciously.

00:16:06.020 We're going and

00:16:06.980 we're seeking out

00:16:08.040 answers from the

00:16:09.180 world, but,

00:16:09.880 you know,

00:16:10.760 and it's a matter

00:16:12.580 of what your attention

00:16:13.500 is drawn to

00:16:14.120 also.

00:16:14.400 So, you know,

00:16:14.920 if I say,

00:16:15.480 hey, what's the

00:16:16.020 feeling of your

00:16:16.920 shoe on your left

00:16:17.720 foot right now?

00:16:18.320 Right, right.

00:16:18.840 You can become

00:16:19.280 aware of that.

00:16:20.500 You've got all

00:16:21.300 the data,

00:16:22.880 if we want to call

00:16:23.340 it that,

00:16:23.540 available to you,

00:16:24.640 but you're only

00:16:25.420 seeking little parts

00:16:26.340 and this all depends

00:16:27.000 on your internal

00:16:28.000 model of the world

00:16:29.680 in terms of,

00:16:30.940 you know,

00:16:31.280 who you are,

00:16:32.140 what is relevant

00:16:32.820 to you,

00:16:33.640 and that's the

00:16:34.440 filter through

00:16:35.660 which we interpret

00:16:36.400 everything.

00:16:37.740 And so,

00:16:39.460 you know,

00:16:39.660 when it comes to

00:16:40.120 this question of

00:16:40.820 truth,

00:16:42.400 there is no

00:16:43.700 singular truth

00:16:45.700 because you've

00:16:47.600 got a completely

00:16:48.320 different set of

00:16:48.860 experiences of

00:16:49.420 your brain,

00:16:50.160 my brain,

00:16:50.660 everyone's brain.

00:16:51.920 We're all going

00:16:52.700 to perceive

00:16:53.600 different things

00:16:54.180 and seek different

00:16:55.040 things from the

00:16:55.580 world.

00:16:56.400 Something we might

00:16:57.200 get into later

00:16:57.940 that I'm very

00:16:58.800 interested in,

00:16:59.340 and I know you

00:16:59.680 are too,

00:17:00.060 is this collection

00:17:01.480 of neural

00:17:03.400 networks or

00:17:04.080 personalities that

00:17:05.120 we have inside

00:17:06.100 and Nietzsche's

00:17:07.440 view on this

00:17:07.900 was that they

00:17:09.780 each have their

00:17:10.460 own truth.

00:17:11.220 They're each

00:17:11.940 perceiving.

00:17:13.460 Yeah,

00:17:13.980 we could talk

00:17:14.460 about this.

00:17:15.600 Yeah,

00:17:15.760 yeah.

00:17:15.960 Okay,

00:17:16.360 okay.

00:17:16.880 So,

00:17:18.400 I know you and

00:17:19.900 I are both fans

00:17:20.380 of Nietzsche and

00:17:21.040 the...

00:17:22.240 Every drive wants

00:17:23.860 to philosophize

00:17:24.880 in its spirit.

00:17:26.420 Exactly.

00:17:27.040 Okay,

00:17:27.340 so let's unpack

00:17:28.020 that.

00:17:28.400 Yeah.

00:17:28.580 So,

00:17:28.920 it's,

00:17:29.320 you know,

00:17:29.640 you've got all

00:17:30.240 these neural

00:17:30.580 networks that

00:17:32.000 have different

00:17:32.500 drives,

00:17:33.400 and want

00:17:34.520 different things,

00:17:35.740 and each,

00:17:36.620 what Nietzsche

00:17:37.020 meant by that,

00:17:37.660 just for the

00:17:38.120 listener,

00:17:38.480 of course,

00:17:38.780 is,

00:17:39.000 you know,

00:17:39.340 that each

00:17:40.300 of those

00:17:40.680 drives puts

00:17:42.060 together a

00:17:42.880 story or its

00:17:43.840 truth about

00:17:45.020 why it's seeing

00:17:45.740 the world that

00:17:46.300 way.

00:17:46.840 So,

00:17:47.460 the information

00:17:48.740 that you would

00:17:49.380 go out into

00:17:49.880 the world to

00:17:50.460 seek,

00:17:50.780 the mission

00:17:51.260 that you run

00:17:52.200 depends on

00:17:53.200 who's ascendant

00:17:53.980 at that moment.

00:17:54.800 That's for sure.

00:17:55.680 Okay,

00:17:56.200 fine.

00:17:56.740 So,

00:17:57.060 let's delve

00:17:57.760 into that.

00:17:58.380 Okay,

00:17:58.620 so,

00:17:59.460 when psychologists

00:18:00.360 first started

00:18:01.720 talking about

00:18:02.440 drives,

00:18:03.400 who was

00:18:05.820 that?

00:18:06.500 I can't

00:18:06.780 remember the

00:18:07.260 name of the

00:18:07.620 psychologist.

00:18:08.360 He was an

00:18:08.780 early behaviorist,

00:18:09.740 but a

00:18:09.980 sophisticated one.

00:18:11.400 The name

00:18:11.760 will come to

00:18:12.180 me later.

00:18:13.400 They were

00:18:14.060 working at

00:18:14.780 building a

00:18:15.260 model of

00:18:15.620 the nervous

00:18:16.000 system,

00:18:16.580 really from

00:18:17.140 the reflex

00:18:17.780 up,

00:18:18.740 right?

00:18:18.960 And so,

00:18:19.580 the behavioral

00:18:21.540 hypothesis was

00:18:22.740 don't explain

00:18:24.400 anything using

00:18:25.980 any more

00:18:26.460 complex terminology

00:18:27.520 if you can

00:18:28.240 explain it in

00:18:29.140 terms of

00:18:29.580 reflex.

00:18:30.420 And you can

00:18:31.280 get very

00:18:31.680 basic neural

00:18:32.800 systems that

00:18:33.740 are reflexive,

00:18:34.820 that are

00:18:35.140 basically spinal,

00:18:36.380 and they really

00:18:37.080 run in an

00:18:37.620 automatic way.

00:18:38.960 And so,

00:18:39.340 then you could

00:18:39.760 imagine chains

00:18:40.760 of those

00:18:41.460 reflexes,

00:18:43.000 you could

00:18:44.760 imagine those

00:18:45.300 reflexes chained

00:18:46.160 together so that

00:18:46.920 more and more

00:18:47.300 complex behaviors

00:18:48.220 could come

00:18:48.600 about,

00:18:49.300 and there's

00:18:49.800 some truth

00:18:51.520 in that.

00:18:52.300 But the

00:18:52.700 problem with

00:18:53.180 the drive

00:18:54.160 metaphor is

00:18:55.520 that it's

00:18:56.260 kind of like

00:18:56.720 a wind-up

00:18:57.380 doll,

00:18:58.000 right?

00:18:58.320 A drive

00:18:58.960 implies,

00:18:59.600 first of all,

00:19:00.040 that it's

00:19:00.360 motoric,

00:19:01.060 that it's

00:19:01.360 movement-oriented,

00:19:02.720 and second,

00:19:03.760 that it's

00:19:04.800 algorithmic or

00:19:05.560 deterministic.

00:19:07.000 Now,

00:19:07.980 and Nietzsche

00:19:09.040 offered a more

00:19:10.900 sophisticated view

00:19:11.840 than that when

00:19:12.780 he said,

00:19:13.580 when he

00:19:13.820 associated drive

00:19:14.740 with philosophizing,

00:19:15.960 because a

00:19:17.200 mechanistic and

00:19:18.760 deterministic

00:19:19.640 motoric algorithm

00:19:21.820 doesn't

00:19:22.260 philosophize.

00:19:23.820 And if you

00:19:25.460 can piece this

00:19:26.180 together from

00:19:26.840 Nietzsche's work,

00:19:27.500 and it's really

00:19:27.960 clear in Jung

00:19:28.760 that it's much

00:19:30.280 better to

00:19:30.840 conceptualize what

00:19:32.060 we think of as

00:19:32.820 drives as

00:19:33.440 personalities.

00:19:34.920 And then the

00:19:35.560 huge advantage to

00:19:36.980 that is that it

00:19:37.780 brings in

00:19:38.500 perception.

00:19:40.660 Because,

00:19:41.240 and you already

00:19:41.740 pointed this out,

00:19:43.500 at least implicitly,

00:19:45.260 when we were

00:19:45.760 discussing the

00:19:46.420 painting,

00:19:47.240 if I'm angry

00:19:48.960 with you,

00:19:49.940 okay, so now

00:19:50.480 you could say I'm

00:19:51.460 under the grip of

00:19:52.200 a drive,

00:19:53.000 but it's much

00:19:53.660 more sophisticated

00:19:55.720 and accurate to

00:19:56.780 say it's no,

00:19:57.600 that the

00:19:58.540 personality of

00:19:59.700 defensive or

00:20:00.680 predatory aggression

00:20:01.740 now has me

00:20:03.500 in its grip.

00:20:04.540 It's dominant from

00:20:05.740 a neurological

00:20:06.240 perspective.

00:20:07.100 It's suppressing

00:20:08.280 all other

00:20:08.780 personalities.

00:20:10.060 And so then

00:20:10.600 what that's going

00:20:11.280 to mean is

00:20:11.820 that when

00:20:12.540 you talk

00:20:13.040 to me,

00:20:14.220 any word

00:20:15.900 that you

00:20:16.380 say that I

00:20:17.260 could interpret

00:20:17.840 as irritating

00:20:18.540 is going to

00:20:19.200 be much

00:20:19.580 more obvious.

00:20:21.580 And anything

00:20:21.940 that you say

00:20:22.620 that would

00:20:23.000 be peacemaking,

00:20:24.940 I would regard

00:20:26.120 cynically,

00:20:27.060 let's say,

00:20:27.740 and I would

00:20:28.260 be looking

00:20:28.740 in my

00:20:30.180 interaction

00:20:30.700 with you

00:20:31.440 for pathways

00:20:32.180 to victory.

00:20:33.160 And it

00:20:33.540 wouldn't only

00:20:33.920 be that I

00:20:34.360 would see

00:20:34.880 that,

00:20:35.980 but also

00:20:36.680 if you

00:20:37.540 asked me to

00:20:38.100 justify my

00:20:38.980 actions while

00:20:39.780 we were

00:20:40.080 arguing,

00:20:40.960 even if

00:20:41.380 I became

00:20:41.900 cruel,

00:20:43.140 that drive

00:20:44.620 that's a

00:20:45.040 personality

00:20:45.500 would have

00:20:45.920 all those

00:20:46.260 arguments at

00:20:46.840 hand too.

00:20:47.680 So it's a

00:20:48.060 full-fledged

00:20:48.560 personality.

00:20:49.260 It also has

00:20:49.860 its own

00:20:50.180 emotional systems

00:20:51.100 because if

00:20:51.620 I'm gripped

00:20:52.460 by rage,

00:20:53.620 I could easily

00:20:54.660 be happy to

00:20:55.500 see you suffer.

00:20:56.920 And if I'm

00:20:57.760 gripped by

00:20:58.200 compassion,

00:20:58.880 say,

00:20:59.500 well,

00:20:59.900 seeing you

00:21:00.740 suffer is

00:21:01.180 going to

00:21:01.540 put me

00:21:02.020 in pain.

00:21:02.920 And so

00:21:03.260 I think

00:21:04.480 it would be

00:21:06.040 very helpful

00:21:06.680 if the

00:21:07.660 psychological

00:21:08.100 field in

00:21:08.760 general

00:21:09.100 updated

00:21:09.640 its model

00:21:10.320 of drive,

00:21:12.160 so to

00:21:12.440 speak,

00:21:12.700 or even

00:21:13.080 motivation

00:21:13.660 for that

00:21:14.120 matter,

00:21:14.600 to concentrate

00:21:16.700 more on

00:21:17.380 this personality

00:21:18.160 like model.

00:21:19.640 Now,

00:21:20.260 you talked

00:21:21.280 as well

00:21:21.720 in the

00:21:22.680 book about

00:21:23.640 the diverse

00:21:24.620 range of,

00:21:25.460 I don't

00:21:25.700 know,

00:21:26.220 I think you

00:21:26.820 used the

00:21:27.160 word personality

00:21:27.820 as well.

00:21:28.800 The diverse.

00:21:29.700 I called it

00:21:30.700 a team of

00:21:31.200 rivals.

00:21:31.900 Yeah,

00:21:32.100 yeah,

00:21:32.360 yeah,

00:21:32.880 yeah.

00:21:33.360 By which I

00:21:34.000 mean you've

00:21:34.680 got all

00:21:35.160 these,

00:21:35.680 you know,

00:21:36.000 all these,

00:21:36.600 let's call

00:21:36.920 them personalities

00:21:37.520 under the

00:21:38.160 hood.

00:21:38.440 You know,

00:21:39.780 it's interesting

00:21:40.220 because I think

00:21:40.900 I,

00:21:41.340 maybe I dial it

00:21:42.160 back one step

00:21:42.820 from personality.

00:21:43.560 You've got

00:21:43.780 different neural

00:21:44.320 networks that

00:21:45.440 want different

00:21:45.920 things and we

00:21:46.460 can measure

00:21:46.920 these.

00:21:47.160 Just give an

00:21:47.640 example which

00:21:48.400 is,

00:21:49.220 you know,

00:21:49.440 when you're

00:21:49.660 making a

00:21:50.020 financial decision

00:21:50.860 about what

00:21:51.420 you're going

00:21:51.720 to buy,

00:21:52.560 you have

00:21:53.440 certain networks

00:21:54.260 that care about

00:21:55.680 valuation,

00:21:56.760 they care about

00:21:57.040 the price point

00:21:57.860 and they're

00:21:58.160 thinking about,

00:21:58.560 okay,

00:21:58.660 how much is

00:21:59.020 that worth,

00:21:59.320 how much is

00:21:59.620 that worth,

00:22:00.040 why,

00:22:00.440 so on.

00:22:01.120 You have

00:22:01.500 completely

00:22:01.960 separate networks

00:22:02.800 in the frontal

00:22:03.160 lobe that care

00:22:03.840 about the

00:22:04.700 predicted emotional

00:22:06.240 experience.

00:22:07.980 Let's say you're

00:22:08.560 looking at two

00:22:09.240 restaurants that

00:22:09.980 you're trying to

00:22:10.620 choose between,

00:22:11.560 so you're making

00:22:12.340 a simulation of

00:22:13.260 what you see,

00:22:13.640 oh,

00:22:13.820 that's going to

00:22:14.160 be delicious and

00:22:14.860 good and that

00:22:15.260 one's not going

00:22:15.720 to be so good.

00:22:16.320 You've got other

00:22:17.180 networks that care

00:22:18.600 about the social

00:22:19.520 context,

00:22:20.180 as in what do my

00:22:20.820 friends think of

00:22:21.480 this?

00:22:22.200 Is this cool or

00:22:23.360 not so cool?

00:22:24.660 All these things,

00:22:25.700 you've got this and

00:22:26.540 more,

00:22:27.240 they're all battling

00:22:28.180 it out under the

00:22:28.860 hood.

00:22:29.120 And they're all

00:22:30.460 trying to steer

00:22:31.600 the ship of

00:22:32.120 state.

00:22:32.700 And when you

00:22:33.020 make a decision,

00:22:35.380 it's because of

00:22:37.120 the vote of the

00:22:38.880 neural parliament.

00:22:40.360 So what's

00:22:41.400 interesting,

00:22:42.060 I do want to

00:22:42.900 get at this

00:22:43.300 because your

00:22:45.100 view of a

00:22:46.600 collection of

00:22:47.180 personalities where

00:22:48.020 one of them is

00:22:48.700 dominant,

00:22:49.440 and my view of

00:22:50.120 a team of rivals

00:22:50.720 is slightly

00:22:51.420 different in this

00:22:52.000 way,

00:22:52.700 which is that

00:22:53.840 there's this

00:22:56.100 battle going on

00:22:57.120 and you reach

00:22:58.140 these sort of

00:22:58.800 consensus things

00:22:59.560 just like in a

00:23:00.160 parliament where

00:23:00.720 different groups

00:23:01.380 will collaborate

00:23:02.580 and coordinate

00:23:03.260 and say,

00:23:03.720 okay,

00:23:03.960 two out of

00:23:04.700 three think

00:23:05.160 this and so

00:23:05.660 we're going

00:23:05.860 to go for

00:23:06.060 that restaurant.

00:23:07.360 Well,

00:23:07.540 that would be

00:23:08.020 calculated.

00:23:08.820 My suspicions

00:23:09.580 are enough of

00:23:10.740 those rivals

00:23:11.620 aggregate together,

00:23:12.920 they can inhibit

00:23:13.940 everything else.

00:23:14.820 That's exactly

00:23:15.180 right.

00:23:15.440 So they'll join

00:23:16.060 forces and then

00:23:17.120 their rivals will

00:23:18.340 sink into silence

00:23:19.420 because they

00:23:20.460 likely grip the

00:23:22.920 neuropharmacological

00:23:23.960 circuits that can

00:23:24.860 inhibit the rivals.

00:23:25.940 Yeah,

00:23:26.300 I think that's

00:23:26.720 exactly right.

00:23:27.080 Now,

00:23:27.440 some of that would

00:23:28.020 be calculated

00:23:28.700 unconsciously,

00:23:30.020 right?

00:23:30.300 Almost.

00:23:30.800 But then maybe

00:23:31.780 we could hash

00:23:33.340 this out a little

00:23:34.000 bit.

00:23:34.380 So imagine it's

00:23:36.440 something like this.

00:23:37.220 So you're making

00:23:38.080 a decision.

00:23:38.740 A lot of these

00:23:39.160 you make pretty

00:23:39.680 quickly.

00:23:40.640 And so what I

00:23:41.900 would presume that

00:23:42.600 would mean is that

00:23:43.420 the rival systems

00:23:45.080 that are doing

00:23:45.980 the computations

00:23:47.020 already have a

00:23:48.620 behavioral pathway

00:23:49.780 specified and

00:23:51.240 practiced that's in

00:23:52.660 keeping with their

00:23:53.360 aim.

00:23:53.680 So nothing new

00:23:54.820 has to be

00:23:55.340 instantiated.

00:23:56.080 But imagine

00:23:57.180 imagine that there

00:23:58.400 are situations

00:23:59.120 where a novel

00:24:00.420 situation arises

00:24:01.700 and rivals

00:24:03.460 emerge but there

00:24:04.300 isn't a clear

00:24:05.380 pathway even if

00:24:07.180 one system

00:24:08.300 obtains

00:24:08.760 dominance.

00:24:09.460 I suspect that's

00:24:10.360 when you have to

00:24:11.020 become conscious

00:24:11.760 and you have to

00:24:13.100 think because one

00:24:14.600 of the mysteries in

00:24:15.400 your book and

00:24:15.960 it's a mystery

00:24:17.300 period is given

00:24:18.940 that we can

00:24:19.520 compute so much

00:24:20.360 unconsciously

00:24:21.560 what's and given

00:24:23.280 how narrow the

00:24:24.120 focus of

00:24:24.620 consciousness is

00:24:25.600 and even how

00:24:26.480 limited its

00:24:27.440 ability to

00:24:28.820 control let's

00:24:29.600 say what's it

00:24:31.040 good for at

00:24:31.620 all.

00:24:32.360 Now we do

00:24:33.540 know where we

00:24:34.320 do tend to

00:24:34.960 become conscious

00:24:35.700 at least in

00:24:36.280 sometimes of

00:24:37.020 things that are

00:24:37.560 novel so novelty

00:24:38.540 seems to have

00:24:39.220 something to do

00:24:39.800 with it but so

00:24:41.040 I'm curious about

00:24:41.960 what you think

00:24:42.400 about that.

00:24:43.000 Yeah great I

00:24:43.660 mean the thing

00:24:44.140 is when you

00:24:44.780 look across the

00:24:46.020 animal kingdom

00:24:46.460 you find these

00:24:47.780 rivaling networks

00:24:48.740 everywhere so just

00:24:49.500 as an example

00:24:50.140 you take a mouse

00:24:51.340 you put it in a

00:24:51.980 maze and you

00:24:53.220 put cheese at

00:24:53.780 the end and you

00:24:54.820 can put a little

00:24:55.420 harness on the

00:24:56.060 mouse and measure

00:24:56.800 how much he's

00:24:58.200 pulling towards

00:24:58.780 the cheese.

00:24:59.440 Then what you can

00:25:00.080 do is switch it

00:25:00.680 where instead of

00:25:01.180 a piece of cheese

00:25:01.620 you have an

00:25:02.480 electrical shock

00:25:03.280 at the end and

00:25:04.360 you can put the

00:25:04.880 harness on and

00:25:05.360 measure how hard

00:25:06.040 he pulls away

00:25:06.820 from the electrical

00:25:07.360 shock okay.

00:25:08.200 Now what you do

00:25:08.900 is you put a

00:25:09.680 piece of cheese

00:25:10.240 and an electrical

00:25:11.220 shock at the end

00:25:12.240 of the thing and

00:25:13.240 the poor little

00:25:13.760 mouse gets stuck

00:25:14.720 halfway and turns

00:25:16.120 and turns and

00:25:16.560 turns at exactly

00:25:17.440 the place where the

00:25:18.060 two vectors cancel out

00:25:19.240 which is to say

00:25:20.300 he's running both

00:25:21.480 networks right

00:25:22.140 get the cheese and

00:25:22.960 avoid the shock and

00:25:24.360 and he gets stuck

00:25:25.220 there in the middle

00:25:25.780 you see this across

00:25:27.360 animals the

00:25:28.360 approach avoidance

00:25:29.200 conflict yeah

00:25:30.100 exactly it's the

00:25:30.820 conflict part okay

00:25:31.640 you take another

00:25:33.000 example the

00:25:33.540 stickleback is a

00:25:34.640 bird that will

00:25:35.520 attack things that

00:25:36.560 are red and if you

00:25:37.660 get something what's

00:25:38.720 that fish oh fish

00:25:39.880 right yeah no no

00:25:41.360 wait stickleback

00:25:42.580 stickleback gull wait

00:25:43.920 what's the oh oh it's

00:25:45.400 it's a it's a gull it's

00:25:46.680 a bird yeah okay

00:25:48.000 because there's a

00:25:48.560 okay there's a

00:25:49.440 stickleback fish too

00:25:50.480 okay yeah this is a

00:25:51.760 bird I think I'm

00:25:52.660 99% sure I got the

00:25:53.660 name right stickleback

00:25:54.400 okay okay it'll

00:25:55.820 attack things that are

00:25:56.400 red it will sit on

00:25:57.700 anything that's egg

00:25:58.480 shaped it'll sit on

00:25:59.520 it so if you put a

00:26:00.720 red dot on an egg

00:26:01.860 it'll both sit on it

00:26:03.260 and attack it at the

00:26:04.140 same time okay what

00:26:05.960 these represent are

00:26:07.320 rivaling networks

00:26:08.680 right okay here's

00:26:09.640 where I think the

00:26:10.020 role of consciousness

00:26:10.640 is yeah yeah is

00:26:11.660 in mediating this yeah

00:26:13.160 yeah we've gotten

00:26:14.040 better and better at

00:26:14.980 and so when we have

00:26:16.000 rivaling networks in

00:26:17.160 the new in a novel

00:26:18.120 context well that

00:26:19.260 would be a novel

00:26:19.940 context right where

00:26:21.020 where you have a

00:26:22.480 system that's

00:26:23.000 automated another

00:26:23.680 system that's

00:26:24.660 automated but the

00:26:25.460 conjunction produces a

00:26:26.700 paradox okay so right

00:26:27.780 we can think of the

00:26:28.760 re okay so we can

00:26:30.160 think of the reason

00:26:30.900 for the emergence of

00:26:31.900 the cortex in that

00:26:32.780 regard because so I

00:26:35.000 read a series of

00:26:36.240 brilliant papers on

00:26:37.400 hypothalamic cats

00:26:38.920 right so these are

00:26:39.700 cats whose entire

00:26:41.400 cortex is

00:26:42.140 decerebrate cats

00:26:43.460 their entire cortex

00:26:44.620 has been taken out

00:26:45.460 in most of the

00:26:45.940 limbic system and

00:26:47.260 these are mostly

00:26:47.860 female cats for

00:26:48.880 various reasons

00:26:49.780 female cats are more

00:26:51.880 functional with only

00:26:52.820 a hypothalamus as it

00:26:53.880 turns out and if you

00:26:56.100 keep them in a simple

00:26:57.000 environment like a

00:26:57.960 cage they can pretty

00:26:59.340 much do what cats do

00:27:00.640 now they're hyper

00:27:01.620 exploratory which is

00:27:03.780 pretty damn weird for

00:27:04.700 an animal with almost

00:27:05.540 no brain because that's

00:27:06.600 not what you predict

00:27:07.420 and by the way they

00:27:08.120 can also walk on a

00:27:08.980 treadmill right

00:27:09.900 right right well they

00:27:10.980 can mate they can eat

00:27:12.100 they can regulate their

00:27:12.960 temperature they can

00:27:13.740 defend themselves okay

00:27:15.040 so now imagine this so

00:27:16.980 now you have all these

00:27:18.280 automated systems that

00:27:19.440 you described but they

00:27:21.260 can produce conflicts and

00:27:22.620 they can produce conflicts

00:27:23.500 in the moment and they

00:27:25.380 can produce conflicts

00:27:26.580 across time and they

00:27:28.560 can produce social

00:27:29.840 conflicts yeah okay so

00:27:31.340 now you need another part

00:27:32.440 of the brain that

00:27:33.100 emerges as you said to

00:27:34.280 mediate those conflicts

00:27:35.300 and that's what the

00:27:36.660 cortex does and that's

00:27:37.940 that so that would

00:27:39.380 imply that some of that

00:27:40.280 lengthy socialization that

00:27:41.760 you described actually

00:27:43.720 what that socialization

00:27:44.920 is at least in part is

00:27:46.480 the environment specific

00:27:48.600 means in which those

00:27:50.080 conflicts that will

00:27:51.940 arise in consequence of

00:27:55.040 built-in motivation will

00:27:56.160 be mediated right so

00:27:58.220 right and now here's the

00:27:59.400 thing rats and cats have

00:28:01.640 cortex yeah but what we

00:28:03.680 have that they are not so

00:28:05.180 good at is the ability to

00:28:07.060 mediate well such that we

00:28:08.320 don't get stuck in the

00:28:09.240 middle of the maze but we

00:28:10.120 can make a decision about

00:28:11.880 we can actually weigh in

00:28:14.400 and say okay you know

00:28:15.320 what I'm not going to get

00:28:15.980 stuck with these two

00:28:16.880 networks I'm going to I'm

00:28:18.140 going to decide on

00:28:18.900 something this is what I

00:28:20.040 think consciousness is

00:28:21.360 about it's the higher

00:28:22.420 level abstraction that

00:28:23.600 allows you to say okay

00:28:25.060 look this isn't something

00:28:27.280 that's automated this is

00:28:28.840 you know this is a new

00:28:30.080 situation I'm in I don't

00:28:31.240 know what to do here and

00:28:32.160 then the CEO you know

00:28:34.700 gets called up and yeah

00:28:36.440 there's like a large you

00:28:38.140 take a large company the

00:28:39.720 CEO can't possibly know

00:28:41.360 what's happening in the

00:28:42.020 company there's you know

00:28:42.580 100,000 employees right

00:28:43.880 the CEO's job fundamentally

00:28:46.200 is to wait for the phone

00:28:47.280 to ring and say hey

00:28:48.200 there's trouble here

00:28:48.900 there's something going

00:28:49.620 on that we don't know

00:28:50.320 what to do the CEO makes

00:28:51.360 a decision that's and

00:28:53.020 also of course to do

00:28:53.800 future planning yes

00:28:55.000 that yes consciousness is

00:28:56.340 essentially about that

00:28:57.420 yes that's also a

00:29:00.140 conflict mediation process

00:29:01.640 future planning yeah so

00:29:02.920 that the present doesn't

00:29:04.940 interfere with the future

00:29:06.060 yeah that's right that's

00:29:06.980 right and so I think

00:29:08.300 what this what what I

00:29:10.580 suggested in incognito

00:29:11.880 is that maybe we can

00:29:13.240 look at the way that

00:29:14.280 animals resolve conflict

00:29:16.340 or don't like the poor

00:29:17.420 rat that gets stuck in

00:29:18.400 the middle and we can

00:29:20.080 use that as at least a

00:29:21.080 rough metric for the

00:29:22.500 degree of consciousness

00:29:23.780 that an animal has

00:29:24.680 because the assertion

00:29:26.000 there is that you know

00:29:27.840 consciousness allows you

00:29:29.420 to to mediate these

00:29:30.840 things and figure out a

00:29:32.260 path forward there would

00:29:33.440 you okay so so a couple

00:29:35.480 of things so you can

00:29:36.820 imagine a mechanism

00:29:37.980 that would allow that

00:29:40.240 to to okay so here's

00:29:43.460 two potential mechanisms

00:29:44.580 so like system a has a

00:29:46.880 goal and system b has a

00:29:49.260 goal and now they're

00:29:50.060 locked together okay so

00:29:51.340 now you need a

00:29:52.500 superordinate goal that's

00:29:54.540 higher than both of

00:29:55.640 those that can be used as

00:29:56.660 a reference point to

00:29:58.140 rectify the conflict

00:29:59.120 right you can imagine

00:29:59.900 chains of those

00:30:00.780 superordinate goals right

00:30:01.940 so we get stuck in a

00:30:03.280 conflict here we're going

00:30:04.440 to do this we get

00:30:05.620 stuck in a conflict here

00:30:06.660 we're going to do this

00:30:07.460 and so forth like ad

00:30:09.020 infinitum okay so the

00:30:11.840 cortex is going to produce

00:30:14.260 those melding goals then

00:30:16.720 that would that might be

00:30:17.600 something like sequencing

00:30:18.600 i'm hungry and tired so

00:30:20.800 what i'm going to do is

00:30:21.540 i'm going to eat now and

00:30:22.320 then sleep or i'm going to

00:30:23.620 sleep now and eat and that

00:30:25.120 way the conflict between

00:30:26.700 those two things is

00:30:27.580 reconciled in a higher

00:30:28.600 order frame that would

00:30:29.660 that would take the future

00:30:30.780 into account yeah right

00:30:32.220 and so but then the

00:30:34.040 physiology maybe the

00:30:34.900 physiological mechanism is

00:30:36.360 that you know so let's

00:30:38.180 say you could turn left in

00:30:39.900 the maze or you could turn

00:30:40.840 right in the maze and

00:30:41.680 you're spinning because

00:30:42.660 you're in this conflict

00:30:43.580 the mechanism for

00:30:46.300 resolution could be that

00:30:47.900 the inhibitory capacity of

00:30:52.640 the free cortex so it's not

00:30:54.320 bound by any given

00:30:55.100 motivational state is

00:30:56.140 shifted in favor of one of

00:30:57.440 the systems right so

00:30:59.120 because focus of attention

00:31:00.700 seems like that if i'm

00:31:02.040 yeah so if i'm angry for

00:31:04.100 example and i really focus

00:31:05.660 my attention well i could

00:31:07.220 i could inhibit the rage or

00:31:08.500 replace it with something

00:31:09.420 but i could also amplify it

00:31:10.940 like there does seem to be

00:31:12.020 a voluntary attention seems

00:31:13.680 to be something like the

00:31:14.660 capacity to amplify it you

00:31:16.420 think that would be

00:31:17.240 something like the the

00:31:18.980 turning of spare

00:31:20.600 multi-purpose neural tissue

00:31:22.720 to one side of a

00:31:24.620 particular operation so

00:31:26.700 yeah the difficulty with

00:31:28.620 conscious question of

00:31:29.540 course as we know is

00:31:30.320 there's no single spot in

00:31:32.480 the brain that is you

00:31:34.480 know consciousness and so

00:31:36.320 when i think about rivaling

00:31:37.440 networks i tend to think

00:31:38.500 about them rivaling

00:31:39.420 directly with one another

00:31:40.420 you're of course totally

00:31:41.420 correct that you know for

00:31:42.860 example visual attention

00:31:43.960 can amplify certain things

00:31:45.600 right right coming from

00:31:46.720 visual cortex you can pay

00:31:47.980 auditory attention to

00:31:48.980 something or something like

00:31:49.860 that but right so you're

00:31:50.940 gathering more resources

00:31:52.100 to that exactly that

00:31:53.420 phenomenon exactly but i you

00:31:55.500 know i have to confess that

00:31:56.560 we just don't know what

00:31:58.320 what what consciousness is

00:32:00.640 where does consciousness

00:32:01.460 live in that i mean we

00:32:03.280 can talk about visual

00:32:04.040 attention auditory attention

00:32:05.000 and so on but uh where's

00:32:07.100 this it's not like an extra

00:32:08.420 bit that just right

00:32:09.460 attention consciously so

00:32:10.860 that that's still a bit of

00:32:12.180 a mystery uh yeah yeah

00:32:13.940 it's well it's a it's a

00:32:14.960 major mystery because

00:32:15.920 nobody can figure out what

00:32:16.980 the awareness element is

00:32:18.180 for right especially since

00:32:19.860 it's so it's so limited

00:32:21.680 yeah yeah well what it's

00:32:23.980 for of course is what you

00:32:25.120 said at the beginning which

00:32:26.160 is the way that we go on

00:32:27.740 missions into the world you

00:32:29.500 know if i'm looking for the

00:32:30.560 red object then i find the

00:32:32.080 red object if i'm looking

00:32:33.140 for the thing that looks

00:32:34.540 like a broom then i find that

00:32:36.460 in the crowded space and so

00:32:37.960 on um so visual attention

00:32:40.080 is uh is what allows us to

00:32:42.380 parse the world in in a way

00:32:44.980 that's aligned with our

00:32:45.980 mission that what we're

00:32:46.860 trying to answer in that

00:32:48.040 moment well that's it it's

00:32:49.760 in the moment right it's

00:32:51.060 got to be something like

00:32:51.980 that because you could

00:32:52.680 imagine that there would

00:32:53.920 be quests that are

00:32:55.940 automatized so completely

00:32:58.260 that that the circuitry is

00:33:01.900 completely there yeah right

00:33:03.520 but then there are new

00:33:04.580 quests so to speak that

00:33:05.940 well because they're new the

00:33:07.340 circuit circuitry isn't

00:33:08.740 there now goldberg pointed

00:33:12.620 out when he was looking at

00:33:14.300 his l conan goldberg he was

00:33:16.060 luria student he pointed out

00:33:18.420 that when we are learning

00:33:21.540 something new much broader

00:33:23.780 areas of the cortex are

00:33:25.080 activated it's much more

00:33:26.060 energy demanding and then as

00:33:28.060 we learn something and

00:33:29.100 automate it this is in the

00:33:30.540 typical right-handed male so

00:33:32.460 first of all it's the

00:33:33.540 patterns of cortical

00:33:34.540 activation are very

00:33:35.420 widespread and there's a

00:33:36.940 lot of energy that's being

00:33:38.940 what used yeah probably

00:33:41.720 because perceptions aren't

00:33:43.540 well specified and there's

00:33:45.200 many potential pathways of

00:33:46.740 action exactly and then the

00:33:49.020 activation pattern shrinks

00:33:50.800 away from the right

00:33:51.880 hemisphere into the left

00:33:53.600 and then it moves from the

00:33:54.520 left front to the back and

00:33:56.720 as it moves it becomes

00:33:58.500 smaller and smaller area

00:33:59.760 until a little machine is

00:34:01.340 built essentially that's

00:34:02.480 automated and once that's

00:34:04.260 built well you don't need

00:34:05.660 consciousness and it's

00:34:06.600 hyper-efficient that's

00:34:07.820 exactly right so the

00:34:09.400 unconscious brain which is

00:34:11.100 most of what's happening is

00:34:12.820 all about speed and

00:34:14.000 efficiency so if you look at

00:34:15.580 you for example this study

00:34:16.960 has been done with playing

00:34:18.320 tetris so you take a bunch

00:34:19.580 of people male and female

00:34:21.540 of course left and right

00:34:22.440 handed and you teach them

00:34:24.560 to play tetris so when

00:34:25.280 they're first learning

00:34:25.920 they're amateurs their

00:34:27.160 brain is on fire with

00:34:28.100 activity as measured

00:34:28.980 functional magnetic

00:34:29.900 resonance imaging so you're

00:34:32.280 measuring their brains

00:34:32.860 after they become good at

00:34:34.340 it the activity shrinks and

00:34:35.920 shrinks right it's less and

00:34:37.640 less I did this I competed

00:34:40.480 against the this 10 year old

00:34:42.240 world champion cup stacker

00:34:43.740 so he takes these cups and

00:34:44.800 stacks of it's this routine

00:34:46.320 that you do as quickly as

00:34:47.300 you can I had never done

00:34:48.560 before so we both wore

00:34:50.000 high-density EEG caps

00:34:52.020 electroencephalography and

00:34:53.320 we looked at what was going

00:34:54.000 on of course my brain was

00:34:55.200 on fire with activities I

00:34:56.780 was trying to figure out

00:34:57.360 what the heck to do but

00:34:58.240 he practicing four hours a

00:35:00.180 day on this his brain is

00:35:01.780 essentially quiet while he

00:35:02.860 does this incredibly rapid

00:35:04.700 routine so so it's exactly

00:35:06.720 right the job of the brain

00:35:08.500 is to take novel things and

00:35:09.620 say hey if this is relevant

00:35:10.760 and I need this I'm gonna

00:35:12.520 burn it down into the

00:35:13.680 circuitry so I never have

00:35:15.040 to think about it again

00:35:15.840 like bicycle riding you

00:35:17.540 know the first learning

00:35:18.740 you're paying attention to

00:35:19.780 your torso and your legs

00:35:20.720 and you're you don't know

00:35:21.360 what you do when you get

00:35:22.860 good at it then you can

00:35:23.740 text on your phone you can

00:35:24.900 talk to someone while

00:35:25.720 you're biking because it's

00:35:27.300 now part of the machinery

00:35:28.460 of the brain right right

00:35:30.620 so you could think about

00:35:31.580 consciousness as something

00:35:32.760 that's continually climbing up

00:35:34.400 a ladder of automated

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00:35:50.180 are the systems that turn

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00:36:49.920 right so you think and

00:36:54.140 practice and that all

00:36:56.260 automates and you become

00:36:57.420 hyper-efficient in your

00:36:59.000 perceptions and your

00:36:59.960 actions and that disappears

00:37:01.920 in some ways from

00:37:02.740 consciousness it becomes some

00:37:03.980 of the becomes part of the

00:37:05.380 substructure of

00:37:06.180 consciousness exactly but

00:37:07.300 then consciousness itself

00:37:08.460 climbs on top of that so

00:37:10.040 it's like consciousness is

00:37:11.560 like the bleeding edge of

00:37:12.880 adaptation oh nice oh I

00:37:14.980 like yeah yeah yeah that's

00:37:16.800 exactly right and what's

00:37:17.620 interesting by the way I

00:37:18.420 talked about this in the

00:37:19.080 brain plasticity course and

00:37:20.900 in my book live wire what's

00:37:22.480 interesting is that given

00:37:23.560 who you are and what you've

00:37:25.060 already packed down into

00:37:26.200 your machinery that

00:37:27.040 determines what is relevant

00:37:28.600 to you for the next thing

00:37:30.600 such that the only you know

00:37:33.300 there's a million things you

00:37:34.080 could learn or could pay

00:37:35.120 attention to at every

00:37:36.060 moment but you're only

00:37:37.080 going to take on those

00:37:39.420 things that are relevant to

00:37:40.680 you and push them down into

00:37:42.120 the unconscious brain as a

00:37:43.560 result and we know for

00:37:44.840 example the acetylcholinergic

00:37:46.140 systems are involved in this

00:37:47.920 process which is to say they

00:37:50.740 they tag relevance they say

00:37:53.760 hey this is something that

00:37:55.060 means something to you for

00:37:56.160 whatever reason who knows but

00:37:57.820 you really care about you know

00:37:59.940 stamp collecting or genealogy or

00:38:02.340 artwork or whatever it is that

00:38:03.640 you care about and so then

00:38:06.380 you you go on these missions

00:38:08.240 from the world you take stuff

00:38:09.300 in and you start burning that

00:38:11.140 stuff down and it means

00:38:12.400 something to you whereas the

00:38:13.560 rest of the stuff just goes

00:38:14.540 help me distinguish between the

00:38:16.260 dopaminergic and the

00:38:17.680 acetylcholinergic function so

00:38:19.560 if my understanding is that if

00:38:23.000 I and this is part of the

00:38:24.620 structuring of perception if I

00:38:26.620 posit a name my perception is

00:38:30.320 first going to specify a pathway

00:38:32.260 to that aim so that's how the

00:38:33.920 world origin or organizes itself

00:38:36.800 and then things in the world are

00:38:40.020 going to stand out for me as

00:38:41.520 things that will facilitate my

00:38:43.720 movement forward and things that

00:38:45.120 will interfere everything else is

00:38:46.840 irrelevant virtually and there's a

00:38:48.580 social equivalent so people who

00:38:50.820 will facilitate my movement

00:38:52.260 forward are friends and people who

00:38:54.180 won't are foes right and so you

00:38:57.240 have tools and friends and

00:38:58.920 obstacles and foes and you can

00:39:02.300 also perceive things that will

00:39:03.580 transform your aim I think those

00:39:05.040 are magical things by the way

00:39:06.540 that's that category of narrative

00:39:08.060 that's magic transforms your aim and

00:39:10.420 puts you into a new game okay the

00:39:12.920 dopaminergic system will tag progress

00:39:16.460 towards a goal and it'll reinforce the

00:39:19.660 systems neural systems that were

00:39:21.120 active just before that progress was

00:39:23.800 made to make them more dominant now

00:39:25.880 that's partly an indication of

00:39:28.220 relevance because what's positive

00:39:30.460 towards a goal is relevant I don't

00:39:32.420 understand how that differs from the

00:39:34.280 cholinergic marking of relevance so

00:39:36.720 yeah so you've got these acetyl

00:39:38.220 cholinergic systems that say hey this

00:39:40.540 is important I want you to initiate

00:39:43.420 plasticity here and by the way these

00:39:46.440 systems just like dopamine actually

00:39:47.680 broadcast all around the entire brain

00:39:50.180 so the dopamine system is involved in

00:39:52.200 saying hey that was better than

00:39:53.360 expected I wasn't expecting that to

00:39:56.180 happen you get a burst positive

00:39:58.000 burst of dopamine if in contrast

00:40:00.440 you're expecting reward and you don't

00:40:03.000 get it you right and that's a

00:40:05.460 punishment of dopamine you have a

00:40:07.700 little baseline going on absence of an

00:40:09.720 expected reward is technically a

00:40:11.520 punishment exactly right yep and so

00:40:13.800 that's what the dopamine system is for

00:40:15.140 saying well better than expected

00:40:16.080 worse than expected but acetyl

00:40:17.860 acetylcholine is what happens when

00:40:20.340 you're saying I want to make plastic

00:40:22.700 changes to the system here let me just

00:40:24.140 give you an example yeah yeah an

00:40:25.620 experiment with mice and they have to

00:40:28.020 learn how to reach through a narrow

00:40:29.400 slot to grab pellets and whatever and

00:40:32.280 they get better and better at it and

00:40:33.960 the parts of their brain that are

00:40:35.260 involved in this task actually grow in

00:40:37.340 their real estate okay now you take an

00:40:39.520 equivalent set of rats you give them

00:40:41.200 an acetylcholine blocker they do

00:40:43.580 exactly the same number of trials are

00:40:45.220 doing the thing but they don't get

00:40:46.420 better and their brain doesn't change

00:40:48.020 they don't ever get better at the task

00:40:50.500 they're not faster at doing it because

00:40:53.140 they because they don't have the

00:40:55.880 plasticity available to them anymore

00:40:58.540 because you need the acetylcholine by

00:41:00.780 the way it's something that of course

00:41:02.200 we know is all of the neuromodulators

00:41:05.440 neurotransmitter systems these are all

00:41:07.300 working together in a very complicated

00:41:08.860 dance so you know dopamine is involved

00:41:11.700 in saying like hey that's you know good

00:41:13.320 bad better or worse than expected but

00:41:15.520 acetylcholine is the thing that says

00:41:16.940 hey let's make plasticity available

00:41:19.740 here so it's a broader marker of

00:41:21.960 relevance yeah it's it like potential

00:41:24.500 relevance is it something like that

00:41:26.180 and is there a is there an emotional

00:41:28.100 experience that's associated with that

00:41:29.980 what I mean if you block dopaminergic

00:41:32.480 receptors people lose positive emotion

00:41:34.420 yeah but what do they lose what what

00:41:37.360 do they lose if if if acetylcholine

00:41:40.160 urgic transmission is blocked you know

00:41:41.940 they lose subjectively answer that in

00:41:43.800 humans partly why I can't figure out how

00:41:45.840 that damn I can't get a handle on on to

00:41:48.500 understand that how that system

00:41:49.980 functions yeah it's interesting because

00:41:51.480 there's so many acetylcholine blockers

00:41:53.520 that are used in animals for things but

00:41:55.380 I don't know what the emotional

00:41:56.520 experience is for a human on that my

00:41:58.600 guess if I were just pulling something

00:42:00.160 out of a hat would be that they just

00:42:01.620 feel like they don't care about this

00:42:03.060 particular thing so for example let's

00:42:05.120 say you take that's a major that's a

00:42:07.000 major function caring oh yeah that is

00:42:09.820 that's a weird that's a weird emotional

00:42:12.920 condition because it's it doesn't exactly

00:42:15.540 have a valence it's more like like does

00:42:19.700 the feeling of this matters could you

00:42:22.540 characterize that as positive or negative

00:42:24.260 because it could matter in a negative way

00:42:25.980 right and it could matter in a positive

00:42:27.460 way so it seems like that would be

00:42:30.500 something like the broad category of

00:42:33.060 potential significance what happens what

00:42:35.860 happens to I to to pupillary diameter if

00:42:40.160 acetylcholine increases does it does do

00:42:42.540 eyes dilate I don't know I don't know

00:42:44.500 good question but just you know I'm

00:42:47.660 trying to think through what it would

00:42:48.860 feel like imagine that you were trying

00:42:50.720 to learn a new sport that you haven't

00:42:52.260 played you know pickleball let's say so

00:42:55.660 you're you we're both we're both learning

00:42:58.540 the sport at the same time and for some

00:43:00.620 reason it's really relevant to us but if

00:43:03.220 one of us got acetylcholine blockers my

00:43:04.900 assumption would be that we feel like I

00:43:06.840 just don't care about this thing you know

00:43:08.020 I'm more interested in what's going on over

00:43:09.420 there or something we wouldn't we wouldn't

00:43:11.360 particularly care so it sounds like it's

00:43:13.600 a broader marker of relevance okay well

00:43:15.620 I'm gonna have to look that up and see

00:43:17.020 if I can specify it more particularly

00:43:18.660 okay so you talked about we had a bit

00:43:21.120 of sorry let me just give another example

00:43:22.880 of that you know okay so when somebody

00:43:24.840 gets a stroke and let's say they get a

00:43:27.280 stroke and they lose the function in

00:43:28.600 their left arm their left arm's mostly

00:43:29.940 paralyzed and they can do things with

00:43:32.180 their right hand well so the way that

00:43:34.880 you need to operate to get the left hand

00:43:38.260 working again do you know the do you know

00:43:41.540 what they do clinically to so what they

00:43:43.500 do is what's called constraint therapy this

00:43:45.480 is the single best move you take the

00:43:47.360 right hand which is working well and you

00:43:49.060 pin it down you strap some of it so that

00:43:51.240 they're forced to use their left hand

00:43:52.580 necessity yeah exactly necessity that's

00:43:54.820 irrelevant so now I want to get the

00:43:57.180 sandwich to my mouth I have to use the

00:43:59.160 left arm I need to get my zipper down to

00:44:01.020 go to the restroom I have to use my left

00:44:02.760 hand these are the sorts of things that

00:44:04.400 matter this is what causes brain

00:44:06.040 plasticity oh yeah relevance okay and and

00:44:09.600 if you strap down the functional hand

00:44:13.180 and you used a cholinergic suppressor would

00:44:16.240 that stop the person from that's exactly

00:44:18.600 right and that seems to be would they

00:44:21.160 still try or would they just stop trying

00:44:23.480 ah I don't know I don't know what it is

00:44:26.240 in humans uh would we use this yeah right

00:44:28.620 because you could imagine the acetyl

00:44:30.220 choline might mediate trying yeah or

00:44:32.720 intensity of effort or duration or rate but

00:44:35.720 you could also imagine that it would

00:44:37.140 mediate capacity to learn if the

00:44:39.420 practice was occurring you know what I

00:44:41.140 think it wouldn't it wouldn't directly

00:44:42.940 be mediating the trying because I think

00:44:44.680 what would happen is you would try it but

00:44:47.300 you wouldn't have the plasticity that

00:44:49.160 says hey something useful happened here

00:44:53.220 so let's make changes to the motor cortex

00:44:55.780 over here you just wouldn't have that and

00:44:57.600 so the system would stop trying that

00:44:59.580 okay yeah okay so back we had a bit of a

00:45:03.180 I wouldn't call it a dispute but a slight

00:45:05.640 difference of agreement in relationship to

00:45:08.180 this model of personality and you talked

00:45:10.580 about rivals I mean rival is a narrative

00:45:13.760 like metaphor right to have a rivalry is a

00:45:16.880 rivalry between beings generally speaking

00:45:19.560 so we ever have but but but I think

00:45:21.700 there's something worth taking apart is

00:45:23.500 because maybe you could say well if the

00:45:25.940 rivalry is primarily played out at an

00:45:28.120 unconscious level then the metaphor of

00:45:30.580 personality is not quite accurate and so

00:45:33.040 I'm just trying to think through if

00:45:34.900 that's true because if the systems are

00:45:38.080 automated completely I wonder if they're

00:45:41.040 automated I don't know if they would come

00:45:43.280 replete with perceptions and thoughts

00:45:45.400 exactly I have a suspicion that it's not

00:45:48.460 as Nietzsche said that that each or he

00:45:51.300 didn't say he implied it maybe that each

00:45:53.260 one is coming with a personality or

00:45:54.840 something but my my suspicion is that

00:45:56.620 each one is reaching out to other spots

00:46:00.020 like visual cortex like your limbic system

00:46:02.560 like your frontal cortex when a network is

00:46:05.500 dominant it's sort of pulling yeah

00:46:08.140 information and sort of constructing a

00:46:10.400 personality well that's a good idea that's

00:46:12.460 a good idea well that okay so that would

00:46:14.520 account for the archaic the archaic

00:46:17.540 conception of possession it's something

00:46:19.460 like that right well obviously if if a

00:46:22.440 drive comes to dominate your behavior it's

00:46:24.620 taken possession of your personality yeah

00:46:26.680 like clearly nice okay so that's so then

00:46:29.340 you could imagine that there's okay so

00:46:32.140 maybe it's something like this so maybe

00:46:33.620 imagine in a motivated state that there's

00:46:35.700 an automated core and that automated core

00:46:38.860 isn't going to be accompanied by a

00:46:40.200 tremendous amount of consciousness but

00:46:41.980 the more additional neural system it

00:46:46.440 aggregates around it yeah the more

00:46:49.220 consciousness it accrues right and that

00:46:51.340 would partly be because it's actually

00:46:52.580 building something like a novel structure

00:46:54.200 it's got this automated core which we

00:46:56.600 would consider the drive but then it's

00:46:58.980 pulling in different elements of the

00:47:01.060 totality of what's available and that

00:47:03.360 would make it more and more personality

00:47:04.860 like yeah that's right right in terms of

00:47:07.440 deciding what to say next for example you

00:47:10.340 know it's looking at the you know at your

00:47:12.840 whole speech system weren't a keys and

00:47:14.440 brokers and all these areas and saying am I

00:47:16.420 going to say something cruel or kind or

00:47:18.320 whatever but it's still using those basic

00:47:20.760 mechanisms it's taking advantage of the

00:47:23.800 machinery that's there and it just has

00:47:26.180 the ability to draw on it differently than

00:47:29.160 a different so I've been trying to in

00:47:33.480 keeping with this model of like

00:47:35.320 superordinate aims that executive

00:47:37.860 function could refer to to mediate

00:47:39.920 conflict I've been trying to understand if

00:47:42.980 there are principles by which those

00:47:45.920 superordinate aims are constructed so that

00:47:48.820 they're valid so what do you mean by

00:47:51.580 valid well that's a good question

00:47:54.000 not likely to produce conflict for

00:47:59.520 example so for example here's an here's

00:48:01.720 an idea so so you and I we can think of

00:48:04.480 each other as a loose aggregation of

00:48:06.480 potential motivated states but we can come

00:48:09.860 to an agreement okay now then we could

00:48:12.280 judge the quality of the agreement I

00:48:14.320 think by there's a variety of standards

00:48:16.360 we could say it's a higher quality

00:48:19.000 agreement if it can sustain itself

00:48:21.360 across a broader range of contexts so if

00:48:25.140 we have a friendship which is a kind of

00:48:26.880 contractor agreement and we can get

00:48:28.980 along many different places and under

00:48:31.600 many different situations then we think

00:48:34.080 of that as a deep friendship so it's

00:48:35.780 well-constituted friendship and then we

00:48:37.960 could also imagine that if the friendship

00:48:39.700 maintained itself across time then it

00:48:44.340 would be that's another indication of

00:48:46.720 its validity right and then we could

00:48:49.360 imagine a third dimension would be if it

00:48:52.840 was stable across context and stable

00:48:55.300 across time and it improved well we

00:48:57.640 implemented it that would be a third

00:48:59.560 criteria that would be like that'd be a

00:49:01.620 good evaluation strategy for a good

00:49:03.160 marriage it works everywhere it works

00:49:05.880 for a long time and as you play it out it

00:49:08.220 improves okay so then I've been trying to

00:49:11.420 think through if there's a set of rules

00:49:14.600 that obtains like there may be like

00:49:18.080 principles of ethics that bind those

00:49:21.040 kinds of agreements so I'll give you an

00:49:22.560 example so

00:49:23.360 Piaget spent a lot of time analyzing how

00:49:27.480 children learn to play games with others

00:49:30.960 and made friends okay so so the first rule

00:49:34.460 of a game is something like both people

00:49:36.420 have to want to play it okay then the

00:49:38.940 next rule is something like you get a

00:49:41.700 turn in the game and then I get a turn

00:49:43.700 right so I have to sacrifice my turn to

00:49:46.420 you but vice versa and that's a stable

00:49:48.560 arrangement now and the reason we're

00:49:49.960 willing to do that instead of me

00:49:51.820 fighting to have the turn all the time

00:49:53.480 is because it's a better game if I get

00:49:55.620 to play it with you so I'm okay so then

00:49:58.080 you could imagine now if if we come to a

00:50:01.780 voluntary agreement about the aim we unite

00:50:05.020 our perceptions we unite our emotions and

00:50:07.920 then we reciprocate okay now if we can do

00:50:10.200 that once then we've established a precedent

00:50:14.300 and if we can repeat that we have a

00:50:16.820 friendship okay but then that implies that

00:50:19.400 the friendship is based like there's rules

00:50:21.780 the aim has to be shared test the aim has to be

00:50:25.740 voluntary the participation has to be

00:50:28.700 reciprocal now Panksepp showed this with

00:50:32.120 rats when they were playing because

00:50:34.000 Panksepp first of all took a kind of

00:50:36.360 dominance approach to play he showed that

00:50:38.700 if you took two juvenile rats and you

00:50:41.080 paired them in an arena they'd work to

00:50:43.240 play but that the rat that was 10% bigger

00:50:46.380 across rats could reliably pin the smaller

00:50:49.540 rat so then that sort of provided proof

00:50:53.980 evidence for a dominance theory of play

00:50:56.680 but then Panksepp realized that rats don't

00:50:59.100 play once they're communal so then he

00:51:02.320 paired them repeatedly and he found that

00:51:03.920 if the big rat didn't let the little rat

00:51:05.660 win at least 30% of the time the little

00:51:09.900 rat wouldn't play anymore so you could

00:51:11.900 see there that there's an ethos that's

00:51:13.580 emerging that's about now the reason I'm

00:51:16.700 mentioning this is because you're thinking

00:51:19.100 about neural networks as being the rats and

00:51:21.920 the kind of collaboration that neural

00:51:24.080 networks work out through time that and

00:51:26.540 across people right okay yeah so because

00:51:29.120 you so I'm trying to figure out the

00:51:30.860 preconditions for something like a stable

00:51:32.620 social community what works across time to

00:51:36.200 mediate conflict and then what works

00:51:38.320 across people and that's like a bounded

00:51:40.420 world so here's what here's what I think I

00:51:43.000 think so you have all these different

00:51:46.080 tribes some of which are very primitive you

00:51:49.020 know you know hunger and thirst and

00:51:51.560 sexuality and so you've got all these

00:51:52.960 different drives but you have more

00:51:53.860 sophisticated drives to including various

00:51:56.360 forms of short-term thinking versus

00:51:57.700 long-term thinking you have these

00:51:59.380 different financial drives I was talking

00:52:00.800 about with valuation or predicted

00:52:02.960 emotional experience or social context

00:52:04.800 you've got all these different things

00:52:06.020 going on the way that they form these

00:52:10.500 agreements through time they form these

00:52:12.060 friendships let's say I think that

00:52:14.320 makes an integrated personality that's

00:52:16.280 what that's what makes you you and me me

00:52:18.320 is the way that we let these things win

00:52:20.500 or lose in different circumstances in

00:52:23.700 other words but all unconsciously these

00:52:26.500 networks have worked out ways of saying

00:52:28.720 all right look here I'm gonna let you in

00:52:30.600 here and I'm gonna do this and maybe maybe

00:52:32.480 there's an advantage to letting anger

00:52:34.960 win out in this moment you know I find

00:52:37.340 that that works sometimes but in this other

00:52:39.500 moment I know that letting compassion

00:52:41.780 win out is gonna be the optimal thing for

00:52:44.720 my marriage or whatever yeah okay so

00:52:47.140 there are these things but what what

00:52:49.400 interests me is that no matter how

00:52:53.240 integrated a personality we think we

00:52:55.560 have we're constantly in conflict I mean

00:52:57.720 every moment of our lives we think oh

00:52:59.400 should I do this or that or we're

00:53:00.940 making decisions right this is what

00:53:02.300 decision-making is about and so there's

00:53:06.460 a sense in which there's there's never a

00:53:09.300 stable scenario where we say okay look

00:53:12.040 these these guys have figured out how to

00:53:13.460 get along what I find interesting is ways

00:53:17.940 that we can put ideas into place like the

00:53:22.700 Ulysses contract so are you familiar with

00:53:25.840 Ulysses contract so so okay just as a you

00:53:29.500 remember Ulysses Odysseus was coming home

00:53:31.540 from the Trojan War and realized he was

00:53:33.940 going to pass the island of the sirens and

00:53:36.120 he wanted to hear the song of the sirens but

00:53:38.320 he knew that like any mortal man he'd crash

00:53:41.180 in the rocks and die so you remember what

00:53:43.160 he did he filled his men's ears with

00:53:44.580 beeswax he had them lash him to the

00:53:46.660 mast and he said no matter what I do just

00:53:48.980 keep on sailing okay what was happening

00:53:51.880 here was that the Ulysses of sound mind

00:53:54.760 way back here knew that the future Ulysses

00:53:58.260 would behave badly when he passed the

00:54:00.060 island yes he knew that there was no way he

00:54:03.240 wasn't going to behave badly there so what

00:54:04.800 he did is he made a contract with himself he

00:54:07.180 said I can lash myself to the mast so that

00:54:09.160 I can't do the wrong thing okay so this is

00:54:12.020 what philosophers call Ulysses contract and

00:54:13.920 I'm fascinated by these because we use

00:54:16.520 these in all kinds of ways in our lives and

00:54:19.400 I actually one of my next books is about

00:54:21.240 this because I think it's the most

00:54:22.180 practical way when you're in a moment of

00:54:24.980 sober reflection to think about okay who

00:54:27.260 do I want to be and how can I establish

00:54:29.680 Ulysses contract with myself yes yes

00:54:31.680 that I can't break it's an unbreakable

00:54:33.580 kind of contract yeah and so I'll just

00:54:36.200 I'll just give you an example of this

00:54:37.400 why were you driven yeah were you

00:54:39.740 attracted to the terminology contract

00:54:42.140 because it's not something you can break

00:54:44.660 because it's not that Ulysses said okay

00:54:46.940 tie me the thing but leave a little

00:54:48.120 string here that I can pull and let the

00:54:49.740 ropes down or something it's that he was

00:54:51.840 bound to that mast he was he was attached

00:54:56.120 to it and could not get off the mast okay

00:54:58.780 that's the important part so like a

00:55:01.180 marriage contract yeah exactly but even

00:55:03.660 more you know a marriage contract you

00:55:04.900 can break also but the key with Ulysses

00:55:06.340 contracts is you really want to make

00:55:07.400 them unbreakable here's just a couple

00:55:09.100 examples for example in Alcoholics

00:55:14.420 Anonymous the first thing they have you

00:55:16.360 do is clear all the alcohol out of your

00:55:18.020 house because even if somebody feels

00:55:19.580 like hey look I'm done I'm not going to

00:55:21.760 drink but I'll leave those things in

00:55:22.820 case I have a party or whatever they

00:55:24.280 know that on some you know festive

00:55:25.740 Friday night or a lonely Sunday night or

00:55:27.480 something you might okay so you get

00:55:28.800 rid of it so that the temptation can't

00:55:30.980 be there or or with drug addiction

00:55:32.600 programs first thing they tell you is

00:55:34.940 like don't ever walk around with more

00:55:36.200 than 22 bucks in your pocket because

00:55:38.220 even if you think you're over at some

00:55:40.240 point someone's gonna offer you drugs

00:55:41.600 and you've got the money you might spend

00:55:43.020 it so there's a million ways that we

00:55:44.900 can make these kinds of contracts with

00:55:46.680 ourselves and the reason it's important

00:55:48.600 is because what we're doing is setting

00:55:50.940 up some kind of higher order ideal yeah and

00:55:55.400 I know you think about this in terms of

00:55:57.400 religion I think religion is this

00:56:01.220 religious the religious enterprise is

00:56:03.320 the what would you say it's the

00:56:05.860 establishment and analysis and

00:56:07.720 experience of those higher order

00:56:09.180 contracts I think that's a way of

00:56:11.200 defining it so you can think of the

00:56:13.340 higher order the contract the more

00:56:15.160 religious like it is no another thing

00:56:17.260 this is a definition by the way I don't

00:56:19.380 know that I agree with the definition

00:56:20.400 but because let me think because all the

00:56:23.360 these contracts that I try to set up in

00:56:25.440 my life I don't think about them as

00:56:27.080 being religious although they are I

00:56:29.580 mean they're but that's why it's a

00:56:31.820 matter of definition okay well so so

00:56:34.260 let me ask you a couple of questions

00:56:35.720 based on what you just said okay okay

00:56:37.540 because there were as I couldn't there

00:56:40.160 were two ways you went as far as I could

00:56:42.060 tell and I can't reconcile them okay so

00:56:44.220 we started talking about games and you

00:56:46.740 started talking about the manner in

00:56:49.600 which these teams of rivals interact and

00:56:52.340 there was a suggestion there for a

00:56:54.220 moment that there is something game

00:56:55.800 like about it that's so that rival

00:56:58.180 systems might be integrated into a

00:57:00.580 higher order agreement which is

00:57:02.200 essentially what a game is right I

00:57:03.700 mean when two teams are competing on a

00:57:05.640 playing field you could say they're

00:57:07.840 competing but they're also

00:57:08.780 cooperating in that they're playing

00:57:10.460 the same game like if the game

00:57:12.080 degenerates into a fistfight a

00:57:14.400 basketball game fistfight and a hockey

00:57:16.300 fistfight are the same thing yeah right

00:57:18.440 they're not basketball or hockey they're a

00:57:20.520 fight right okay so you can imagine a

00:57:22.940 higher order agreement that has a okay

00:57:24.800 so then the question would be lent is

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00:58:33.340 is the mediation between rivals best

00:58:41.500 conceptualized as a game and and you

00:58:43.620 pointed in that direction for a minute but

00:58:45.020 then you switch to the the ulysses

00:58:47.340 contract so i'm wondering like how would

00:58:50.240 you contrast a game with a contract i

00:58:52.560 think the contract is part of the game

00:58:54.140 which is to say which is to say gosh i

00:58:56.820 know i'm gonna behave badly in that

00:58:58.100 situation so as one twist on this game

00:59:01.620 as a play in this game i'm gonna put

00:59:04.280 something in place so that i can't do

00:59:05.860 forbids it it forbids it exactly it's a

00:59:08.440 way of saying look i know i've got all

00:59:10.120 these rivaling networks and i'm not

00:59:11.940 going to get through this like i know

00:59:13.520 that right now i feel like i'm not

00:59:15.060 going to drink or smoke or whatever

00:59:16.840 somebody's trying to get or or die okay

00:59:18.820 so i i've never had a drink or smoking

00:59:20.420 problem but but one thing i uh do try

00:59:22.680 to prevent is um you know i'm in a

00:59:26.120 restaurant and let's say it's a

00:59:27.580 predefined meal and they put a dessert

00:59:29.440 down i want to have a taste of dessert

00:59:31.340 but i don't want to eat the whole thing

00:59:32.560 okay and what happens is as i'm sitting

00:59:34.360 there talking to everyone i end up

00:59:35.620 beating the whole thing like an idiot so

00:59:37.080 what i do is i take a bite or two and

00:59:39.540 then i take the table salt and i cover

00:59:41.160 the thing in salt the chocolate cake um

00:59:43.260 so that that's my ulysses contract because

00:59:45.460 i know that the me of three minutes from

00:59:47.660 now is going to keep sticking my fork in

00:59:49.200 it so i'm making a contract with myself

00:59:51.420 that i can't break because now the cake

00:59:52.820 is ruined um and so this is just one

00:59:56.600 play in the game of dealing with these

00:59:58.840 rivals it seems to me that there's a deep

01:00:01.480 analogy between that ulysses contract and

01:00:05.460 and something like the rule of a game i

01:00:08.340 mean if you if you set up a basketball

01:00:10.740 game there are moves that are forbidden

01:00:14.060 right and so you can think of games as

01:00:18.600 enabling principles here's things you can

01:00:20.500 do in the game but there's there's rules

01:00:22.280 that are forbidding as well yeah is it

01:00:25.400 with the ulysses contract concept that

01:00:28.660 you're looking at the rules of the game

01:00:31.240 that are that forbid is that is that the

01:00:34.860 fundamental concentration on the ulysses

01:00:36.680 contract side their limitations rather

01:00:39.940 than enabling conditions because you have

01:00:41.840 both in a game right right things you can

01:00:44.100 do and things you can't do every game's

01:00:45.700 like that right i guess you could think

01:00:49.380 of it that way i think it was just

01:00:50.960 another move in the game of life in a

01:00:53.120 sense which is to say you know i could

01:00:55.420 eat it it's a rich energy source it's

01:00:57.040 delicious sugar whatever and i've got

01:00:59.440 this other move i can do i guess i think

01:01:01.480 about it in terms of long-term versus

01:01:03.060 short-term networks in the brain and so

01:01:05.520 how do i get those networks because you

01:01:07.620 know we can image this in fmri we see

01:01:09.120 these areas that are involved in long and

01:01:10.660 short-term thinking so how do i get

01:01:12.540 these guys to play together in the same

01:01:14.460 game but in a way that aligns with who i

01:01:16.880 want to be yeah with my long yeah well

01:01:19.640 let's take that example because i think

01:01:21.840 it provides a very concrete

01:01:23.240 representation of the relationship

01:01:25.480 between superordinate and subordinate

01:01:27.400 goals and future and present yes okay so

01:01:30.060 you already outlined the reasons to eat

01:01:32.320 the chocolate cake right it's delicious

01:01:34.560 and it's delicious because it is a source

01:01:36.800 of energy and a high impact source of

01:01:39.420 energy so there's reason to eat it and

01:01:42.020 the reason is immediate and it's tied to

01:01:44.540 immediate gratification but now you're

01:01:46.700 so that's one game the game of immediate

01:01:49.360 gratification and energy acquisition but

01:01:53.020 you're putting that underneath a large a

01:01:55.940 higher order game okay so questions we

01:01:57.940 might ask is well why what game are you

01:02:00.580 playing when you forbid yourself the

01:02:02.100 cake right what are you what's your aim

01:02:03.900 that game has to do with health has to

01:02:05.940 do with you know keeping slim has to do

01:02:08.700 with um you know all of the things you

01:02:11.980 know vanity all of the things that i want

01:02:14.440 to make sure the kind of person i am who

01:02:16.420 doesn't gulp down the entire chocolate

01:02:18.040 cake right um self-control discipline

01:02:21.380 attractiveness health yeah right and so

01:02:23.880 now now one of the things we might ask

01:02:25.980 ourselves see this is what i was trying

01:02:27.740 to get at you know two discussions ago

01:02:30.140 trying to lay out the preconditions for

01:02:32.180 what constitutes a higher order game because

01:02:33.960 one of the things we could ask is why

01:02:36.140 prioritize the constraint over the eating

01:02:40.200 like there's a reason for that because

01:02:42.180 you value the constraint more now but

01:02:44.640 well but why why is the health you know

01:02:48.020 you you alluded to that you said well

01:02:49.880 part of its future there's more future

01:02:52.080 for example this is just part of the

01:02:53.840 passage into maturity right we realize

01:02:55.780 that it's a long game and so we get to we

01:02:59.260 get to know that uh you know as kids we

01:03:02.240 eat the cake every time maybe we get

01:03:03.880 sick from it uh and what we realize is

01:03:07.040 that the things that we want for our

01:03:09.140 lives are are a different category of

01:03:11.280 things yeah and so these are part of the

01:03:13.320 networks that are okay so you brought in

01:03:15.240 maturity okay so that's well that that's

01:03:17.720 that's an extremely interesting move and

01:03:20.560 it seems to me to be precise and accurate

01:03:23.820 because we could think of cortical

01:03:26.700 development as maturation yeah we could

01:03:28.820 think of socialization as maturation okay

01:03:30.980 so here here's some principles for

01:03:32.880 socialization those are the same in a

01:03:34.560 sense you know i take turns right so

01:03:37.220 that means that i regulate my lower order

01:03:40.740 immediate motivations communally right

01:03:44.360 right but then there's another axis which

01:03:46.940 is i regulate them in relationship to the

01:03:48.820 future and the more mature you are this

01:03:51.200 is a definition again you can tell me what

01:03:52.820 you think about it the more mature you

01:03:54.640 are the better you get at regulating the

01:03:56.840 immediate in relationship to the future

01:03:58.500 but also the local in relationship to the

01:04:00.900 communal so if i'm really mature i'm going

01:04:03.600 to sacrifice the present for the future and

01:04:07.260 the communal and and that's better that's a

01:04:10.020 definition of better right so we're starting

01:04:13.020 to lay out a taxonomy of value right in terms

01:04:16.560 of conduct and in terms of perception i

01:04:18.440 totally agree and and by the way you

01:04:20.200 introduced this idea of you know thinking

01:04:21.900 about the future and thinking about

01:04:23.040 community but i think we'd agree those are

01:04:25.180 not orthogonal at all exactly they don't

01:04:27.680 well in the same direction or similar

01:04:29.620 direction i don't think there's any

01:04:31.100 difference between your future self and a

01:04:35.480 stranger i think they're the same thing

01:04:37.880 because so here's here's an example of

01:04:39.560 that this is so cool i figured this out

01:04:41.060 along 30 years ago psychopaths have no

01:04:45.360 compassion but they don't learn from

01:04:48.660 experience either and so that means that

01:04:50.800 not only does the psychopath have no

01:04:52.480 compassion for you he has absolutely no

01:04:54.980 compassion for himself tomorrow and then

01:04:57.380 you think oh well those are the same thing

01:04:59.000 right there's no difference between those

01:05:01.220 two things that's the because both why

01:05:04.500 why well you're not feeling what your

01:05:06.820 future self is feeling now any more than

01:05:09.120 you're feeling what someone else is feeling

01:05:10.760 now like a normal person can a mature

01:05:14.280 person you might say can think of their

01:05:16.220 future self and they can think of the

01:05:17.800 experience of that self and it matters

01:05:19.560 just like they can think of the experience of

01:05:21.880 someone else and it matters the psychopath

01:05:23.640 either can't or won't do that right but

01:05:26.180 it's the same mechanism you said well

01:05:27.820 there's there isn't a conflict between

01:05:29.540 future orientation and communal

01:05:30.900 orientation i don't think there is i think

01:05:32.940 they're the same thing you know i i i

01:05:35.120 think they're very similar yeah okay

01:05:37.240 stranger thinking about yourself for some

01:05:38.880 reason we have this we have this special

01:05:40.500 attachment to our future selves so we do

01:05:42.220 things like put money into an ira uh we do

01:05:45.960 all kinds of things that we're doing for

01:05:47.820 our future selves our future self will be

01:05:49.740 you know happy we imagine even though our

01:05:52.400 future self will be unrecognizable to us

01:05:54.680 you don't know who that future person is

01:05:56.780 um and you're making all kinds of decisions

01:05:59.400 in deference yeah yeah well that's that's

01:06:01.440 so one of the that begs the question right

01:06:03.680 which is what are the preconditions for

01:06:06.640 people to form an alliance with their

01:06:08.120 future self yeah and it is and you know

01:06:10.820 it could easily be you tell me what you

01:06:12.900 think about this

01:06:13.540 i there was a psychiatrist very famous

01:06:16.700 psychiatrist he used to be taught personality

01:06:18.580 theory all the time and i can't even

01:06:20.240 remember his name now but one of the

01:06:22.340 reasons that he was taught personality

01:06:23.900 classes is because he studied the

01:06:26.660 development of childhood friendships like

01:06:28.480 piaget but one of his hypotheses was that

01:06:32.760 essentially that the close friendships that

01:06:38.160 children develop in early childhood like a

01:06:40.300 best friend a best friend was something

01:06:42.680 like first of all a practice trial for a

01:06:45.240 long-term marriage but also the way that

01:06:47.920 you learn to take care of your future

01:06:49.320 self

01:06:49.780 so that it was through taking care of

01:06:53.360 someone who wasn't you that you

01:06:55.540 developed the capability of making a

01:06:57.620 relationship with something that was

01:06:58.820 abstract and that that would transfer to

01:07:00.900 your

01:07:01.200 oh that's interesting yeah yeah i'm not

01:07:03.560 sure i'm not sure i would think you

01:07:04.660 would

01:07:04.840 need that piece i'm well that's the

01:07:07.420 question i'll think about that further

01:07:08.760 but here's what i would say

01:07:09.680 it's the experience of time that

01:07:12.180 children have that allow them to think

01:07:14.180 about time in other words in other

01:07:16.960 words if you and i talk about ancient

01:07:18.640 rome we're at an age where we can kind

01:07:20.540 of think about 2 000 years and think

01:07:22.560 about what that means an eighth grader

01:07:24.560 learning about that in school really

01:07:25.980 can't imagine 2 000 years no much less

01:07:28.560 imagine 50 years what that what the

01:07:30.480 time or even next week exactly yeah

01:07:32.720 yeah but but as you mature in the

01:07:34.720 world you're able to think about time

01:07:36.940 scales that you simply weren't able to

01:07:38.760 before right so some of it some of it's

01:07:40.420 directly experiential exactly do learn

01:07:42.600 that if you do x today

01:07:44.100 two days from now isn't so good yeah

01:07:46.780 and you can make that connection and

01:07:48.620 that wouldn't be intermediated by some

01:07:50.520 other person right right so well there's

01:07:52.940 no reason to assume that there aren't

01:07:54.620 multiple sources of

01:07:57.160 of information that would mature you

01:07:59.580 agreed agreed okay great so where we get

01:08:02.960 then is maturation leads to an ability to

01:08:06.380 think long term it's this this capacity

01:08:09.220 to think about who do i want to be is

01:08:12.860 something that requires experience and

01:08:16.460 some amount of wisdom um and this is i

01:08:19.880 know that we share an interest in stories

01:08:21.840 and and how this can set this can help us

01:08:25.500 set an idea in our heads for hey that's

01:08:28.620 that's who i want to be i hadn't thought

01:08:30.440 about this because i'm you know my short

01:08:32.100 term networks have been having fun and

01:08:33.680 i've been you know in elementary school and

01:08:36.000 middle school and so on but now i'm

01:08:37.720 really starting to think about this and

01:08:40.440 what what impact i want to make in the

01:08:42.060 world um anyway when you have that idea

01:08:45.780 in mind even let's say let's imagine a

01:08:47.820 person is religious and really has

01:08:49.400 established hey i want to be like this

01:08:52.220 deity or you know this this role model

01:08:54.380 of any sort there's always conflict

01:08:56.880 though right because then you've got

01:08:58.440 temptations in front of you all around

01:09:00.540 you and so there's always this rivalry i

01:09:03.380 only mentioned this going back 10

01:09:05.240 minutes because the issue of you know do

01:09:08.040 these systems work out some sort of

01:09:09.800 nice gameplay sort of but there's also

01:09:12.680 the fact that they're always in conflict

01:09:15.240 you're just always dealing with this uh

01:09:17.680 even when you have well that's that's

01:09:19.360 also well maybe i would say that even

01:09:24.240 if you work out a harmonious game which is

01:09:26.960 probably not a bad model for a well

01:09:29.020 integrated psyche yeah right it's a

01:09:31.460 well integrated game because you're not

01:09:32.900 across purposes to yourself let's say

01:09:34.780 there's enough novelty that's constantly

01:09:37.460 being infused that conflict's going to

01:09:39.240 emerge i mean even imagine you have a

01:09:41.140 stable marriage yeah right but a new

01:09:43.400 problem emerges with a child well that

01:09:46.320 doesn't exactly mean that the marriage

01:09:48.520 contract has been violated but it does

01:09:50.580 mean that now you have a new complex

01:09:52.620 situation to deal with right where you

01:09:55.400 might say that not only is conflict

01:09:57.960 inevitable in that situation you might say

01:10:00.060 that it's desirable because now now

01:10:02.560 imagine that you know your child is hit

01:10:04.400 puberty or something and so like new

01:10:06.400 problems emerge the truth of the matter

01:10:08.840 is you actually don't know how to deal

01:10:10.420 with those problems and so conflict would

01:10:13.460 be useful there insofar as it's identical

01:10:16.100 with diversity of opinion you know and

01:10:18.280 then you can imagine your wife has a

01:10:19.740 temperamental take on the problem and

01:10:22.260 classically that would be she would be

01:10:24.440 more compassionate and more upset and you

01:10:28.000 would be let more judgmental and less

01:10:29.940 upset that's the classic male female

01:10:32.160 dichotomy in terms of temperament but you

01:10:34.400 can imagine that those are useful

01:10:36.380 stances to begin the problem-solving

01:10:38.580 process too because it's a completely

01:10:40.360 open question of whether or not the

01:10:42.540 child would say needs a more stringent

01:10:45.500 future-oriented disciplinary structure

01:10:47.880 let's say and to have that imposed or

01:10:50.280 whether they need more careful

01:10:51.520 understanding so that you can

01:10:52.860 understand what the problem is there's

01:10:54.460 no way of mediating that without

01:10:55.820 conflict and so the fact of the

01:10:58.220 conflict also wouldn't necessarily

01:10:59.980 indicate that the initial contract was

01:11:02.740 faulty it's just that there you're

01:11:05.640 never going to have a contract that

01:11:06.800 will deal with all possible novel

01:11:08.360 situations hence possibly the reason

01:11:10.740 for consciousness that's right right

01:11:12.380 and this allows us to go back and tie two

01:11:13.920 pieces together which is that you know

01:11:16.540 the the brain's job is really to burn

01:11:18.900 things into the unconscious when it

01:11:20.920 says oh I've got this I've got that

01:11:22.320 this is a routine I've seen before

01:11:23.860 right but the reason we're always

01:11:26.100 conscious the reason the brain's always

01:11:27.320 burning a lot of energy is because the

01:11:29.560 world throws lots of novelty at us and

01:11:31.760 so despite all our best efforts every

01:11:35.000 day is full of the unexpected and and

01:11:37.360 therefore we're always in these novel

01:11:39.780 conflicts okay now you you you said

01:11:42.180 something else too that I don't think

01:11:43.680 I've thought about exactly before we're

01:11:47.740 talking about the different functions of

01:11:49.200 consciousness we would never presume

01:11:51.200 that there's a single function although

01:11:53.140 dancing on the edge of chaos is is not a

01:11:56.240 bad yeah you know comprehensive

01:11:58.280 shorthand consciousness also seems to be

01:12:02.200 the place where these visions of variant

01:12:05.300 future play themselves out right so that's

01:12:07.560 like that that's the theater of the mind

01:12:09.860 and so you can imagine that if a new

01:12:14.200 opportunity or crisis emerged you could

01:12:17.660 envision a variety of different futures which

01:12:20.540 would be a variety of different contracts

01:12:22.360 or solutions or people that you wanted to

01:12:25.020 be and you play out those in the theater

01:12:27.820 of the imagination that seems to be

01:12:29.700 conscious and it's logical that it would

01:12:31.500 be consciousness if it's associated with

01:12:33.740 novelty because these new response patterns

01:12:36.940 to this new emergent reality they're not

01:12:39.380 automatized they can't be that's right

01:12:42.020 although I suspect that a lot of our future

01:12:44.580 simulation is unconscious because some

01:12:48.020 amount of our future sim is you know is

01:12:51.200 something that we've using the machine

01:12:52.980 it's using the machine exactly yeah yeah

01:12:54.840 definitely um and so we certainly can pull

01:12:57.580 things up into consciousness and think okay i

01:12:59.180 really want to i really want to understand

01:13:01.180 what it would be like if i did this and if i

01:13:03.000 moved to this other city and got this other

01:13:04.900 job but much of the time we're just slamming

01:13:07.560 things forward well then you could make a

01:13:09.420 rule with our principle for that which is the

01:13:11.600 the deeper the crisis the less automated

01:13:14.900 circuitry is at hand to deal with it that's a

01:13:17.540 definition of deep crisis right so well so for

01:13:20.620 example like moving houses in the same city is

01:13:23.820 not as complex as moving to a house in a new

01:13:26.500 city yeah right and it's because more of your

01:13:28.800 subroutines can be maintained if it's just

01:13:31.460 moving within a neighborhood that's right so and

01:13:33.980 that's that see carl friston the neuroscientist he's

01:13:37.620 he's derived a pretty decent model of anxiety as an index of

01:13:41.520 entropy and so right right cool right right and so

01:13:45.080 that would be anxiety as entropy and entropy as

01:13:49.420 disruption of automized auto automated sub

01:13:53.460 let me make sure i can unpack that it's that if you're

01:13:55.320 looking at a high entropy state where there's lots of

01:13:57.400 possibilities then you have higher anxiety

01:13:59.720 anxiety actually indexes that that's what it's for

01:14:03.240 well then and but then the the higher the degree of

01:14:07.400 possibility the less reliable the automated systems

01:14:12.340 that's almost by definition and by the way this goes back to

01:14:14.900 what we were saying also about you know for example the

01:14:17.080 tetris players or let's just say i don't know let's say

01:14:19.200 when you did you play soccer as a kid you play okay so

01:14:21.960 when you first were learning how to play soccer again your

01:14:25.200 brain if we could have measured it while you were running

01:14:26.980 around on the field it's on fire because you're you're

01:14:29.340 trying to figure out wait where's the ball where's

01:14:30.900 everyone else you know it's all knees and elbows and

01:14:33.080 you don't know what's going on okay a professional

01:14:35.160 soccer player is a hundred times better than you but

01:14:38.040 his brain isn't burning nearly as much energy as the

01:14:41.660 child trying to figure this out and so that's right he's

01:14:46.280 in a much lower entropy state exactly he's in a lower entropy

01:14:50.000 state and so it's because his movements are more

01:14:52.880 efficient and right but the reason the reason is

01:14:56.840 because the child is trying to simulate all the

01:14:59.440 possibilities the professional has sort of seen

01:15:02.340 everything play out before yeah that's the key

01:15:04.680 he's got the patterns but the child has the high entropy state

01:15:07.040 because you know what if i try this what if i try that

01:15:09.600 yeah and so on yeah and it's very localized too because when

01:15:12.760 the child is starting to play soccer his field of attention is

01:15:16.960 going to be like this big right he's going to be thinking

01:15:18.920 how many different ways could i move my foot and that makes

01:15:23.100 him a pretty spectacularly horrible soccer player because

01:15:25.900 he's not paying attention to anything that's going on right in

01:15:28.580 gretzky for example the hockey player one of the things he was

01:15:31.440 renowned for and you can imagine this has a consequence of level

01:15:34.940 layered expertise was that he had he was paying attention to what was

01:15:39.280 happening everywhere on the ice well why well because he didn't have to pay

01:15:43.220 attention to skating he didn't have to pay attention to how he was holding his

01:15:46.320 stick he didn't even have to pay attention to where the puck was on his

01:15:50.000 stick because that was all automated so he can move up to higher and higher

01:15:53.660 levels exactly and what he famously said is i i'm not thinking about where the puck is

01:15:57.920 i'm thinking about where the puck is going right right right well and you do

01:16:01.420 that when you learn to drive yes like as you get to be a better and

01:16:04.920 better driver you look farther and farther down the road

01:16:07.220 yeah it's also the case too they've studied this with expert piano players

01:16:11.200 who are playing with sheet music they look ahead of where they're

01:16:14.640 playing yes right and so what they're doing

01:16:17.220 in some sense i think probably what they're doing neurologically

01:16:19.980 is disinhibiting automated subsystems and that's essentially so i can give you an

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01:17:34.360 pat it it it's an example that sort of reconciles the free will deterministic

01:17:42.120 conundrum so if you do this this is a ballistic movement you wrote about these

01:17:46.860 in that book right so if i do this the lag time for neural transmission from here

01:17:53.180 to here and back is longer than the duration of that movement so then the

01:17:59.120 question is how do i control that movement and the answer is well i've

01:18:02.560 automated this routine that which is why i can stop my hand

01:18:06.280 because i can't stop it voluntarily right so what happens is i have the routine

01:18:10.800 at hand i disinhibit it and it runs runs automated now i have no free will during that

01:18:16.900 ballistic movement yeah and so what seems to happen with free free will so to speak is that

01:18:22.580 as the as the horizon of the future approaches free will disappears we we devolve into automation

01:18:30.440 as the present makes itself oh that's very interesting so here so okay um so a lot of what

01:18:36.180 i've studied in my career has to do with time our perception of time and uh the bottom line of

01:18:42.180 course is that we live slightly in the past why because it takes time for signals to get

01:18:46.780 you know uh processed and integrated right so when signals hit my for example i used to play baseball

01:18:52.380 and you know when you're swinging at a fast pitch um this all happens unconsciously the best you can do

01:19:00.560 as this ball is traveling from the mound to the plate is to adjust your swing up or down as you're

01:19:06.140 already swinging but all this is happening unconsciously my experience has always been

01:19:11.320 when i hit the ball i'm i become aware that i have just hit the ball and i say to myself

01:19:18.420 throw it out the bat and run right right um because it's already flying um the reason being of course

01:19:24.800 because it takes at least half a second before you get conscious awareness of anything the signals

01:19:28.900 have to move around in your brain as you know signals are very slowly in the brain about a

01:19:33.980 meter per second on unmyelinated axons maybe you know 10 times faster than on myelinated axons

01:19:38.860 and it's 10 times faster yeah yeah okay and that's okay and what's interesting you know we've got big

01:19:44.640 bodies right so you know if i touch your toe the signals have to travel all the way up you know up

01:19:49.200 your leg and up your spinal cord to your brain um but here's the weird part you know if i touch your

01:19:53.840 toe and your nose at the same time you'll feel those simultaneous right right and that's weird

01:19:58.760 because how does your you know does your brain feel the signal from the nose and then say okay

01:20:03.420 i'm just gonna wait and see if that's coming up if your eyes are closed yeah yeah that's weird

01:20:08.420 yeah so here's the thing yeah yeah that's weird this by the way led me to a hypothesis years ago that

01:20:12.900 taller people live further in the past than shorter people because your brain has to wait for all the

01:20:20.160 signals come together your vision your hearing your touch touch from your toes all this stuff to come

01:20:24.380 together it puts together your conscious perception of what's happening right now

01:20:27.880 and that's slightly longer leg time slightly longer leg time if you're taller yeah it's a very funny

01:20:32.760 hypothesis by the way so um yeah so we live a little bit in the past and during that time i totally

01:20:40.860 concur we think there can't be free will involved in any of the processing or or you know certainly

01:20:46.100 reflexes but also ballistic movements that we're doing there's just there's no possibility for free will

01:20:51.120 to operate there if we do have free will the argument i made at the end of incognito is that

01:20:55.800 you know there may be free will it's very difficult neuroscience wise to to nail this question of if

01:21:03.360 there is or not but if there is it's a bit player in a much larger system and so um you know you've got

01:21:09.620 all this unconscious processing most of what's happening the brain i think of the conscious brain is

01:21:14.220 a broom closet in the mansion of the brain um i should say the conscious mind is a broom closet in the

01:21:20.720 mansion of the brain um with very little access to what's going on there may be free will but it's

01:21:26.960 it's going to be a small player well but i mean we could reconcile what we could we could integrate

01:21:33.340 what we discussed earlier with a free will view because you could say and tell me what you think

01:21:37.880 about this i mean obviously our choice isn't unconstrained we're not omniscient there's lots of

01:21:43.360 things we can't do so even if we're free will absolutists we're still playing within a confined

01:21:48.680 domain but you can't you say given what we discuss like throughout this entire conversation that

01:21:55.540 you choose what to automate um i mean like you have like imagine this so you have a novel situation you

01:22:02.380 you envision these variety of different futures and there's some volunteerism in that but then

01:22:08.040 you can direct your attention towards what you determined to practice right this doesn't answer

01:22:14.440 the free will question though because if i choose this particular future we can still question whether

01:22:20.620 i had free will to choose that or if i rewound history a thousand times would i always choose

01:22:24.640 well but i guess the question then would be if that's the case why would it be useful to have the

01:22:30.300 multiplicitous futures make themselves manifest like what if there's no choice between them why have an

01:22:37.240 array one argument for this is that when you simulate a future you then feel emotionally what that

01:22:43.580 future feels like and you compare that to the next future in the next future obviously truth in that

01:22:47.580 yeah and maybe you need to simulate each one in order to make your evaluation but but the question

01:22:54.300 is you know i say oh that future feels the best to me that's who i want to be in long term but was it a

01:22:59.460 free choice i i don't know just for the record i don't come down one way or the other on the free

01:23:03.700 will because i don't i don't know well i think it probably we probably have the question formulated

01:23:08.740 wrong in some fundamental way which is why it can't be resolved but it's also there's also likely

01:23:13.840 such a constant play of indeterminacy and determinacy at every level of decision that

01:23:20.600 you actually can't parse them apart right because i think your argument that we lay out these different

01:23:26.440 simulations and then we evaluate them well that's obviously what you do when you go see a movie is

01:23:31.120 like you're evaluating the decisions that different characters are making and you're feeling that and that

01:23:35.740 is informative and you could think about that as deterministic but then with that argument you have

01:23:40.680 the problem well the reason those simulations feel the way they do was because you chose the aim that

01:23:47.060 you were using to inhabit while you were doing the evaluation and so it just flips you into the problem

01:23:52.000 right away again yeah that's right that's right and you said you were writing a new book yeah we're

01:23:57.640 running out of time oh okay this side so yeah tell us i'd like to where your interests are going and

01:24:02.820 what your new book is about right okay well i'm running a couple of new books and um so one of

01:24:08.320 them is called empire of the invisible and this is about all the stuff that we don't see in other

01:24:15.420 words i've always been fascinated by this question of why do each of us think we know the truth and if

01:24:20.300 we could just shout it on x in all capital letters enough everyone would come to agree with this

01:24:25.720 everyone would see the wisdom of our point of view i've seen firsthand that that isn't true

01:24:29.760 exactly so everybody on social media knows the truth and on any side of the spectrum whether you're

01:24:36.660 you know a denizen of wokistan or magistan or whatever everyone feels like it's clear and my

01:24:42.300 question is why do we all have such limited internal models where we think we know the truth i'm saying

01:24:47.520 this in a in a way that's free of any political opinion i'm speaking metapolitically now um and so

01:24:53.920 this is what empire of the invisible is about is how do we come to our internal models and and why

01:24:59.860 do we take them so seriously when we well this is why fristin's work by the way is so helpful

01:25:05.020 well if you if you understand at least in part that aim constrains entropy then you get some sense

01:25:13.120 almost immediately why people cling so desperately to their frameworks right it isn't just that the

01:25:19.640 framework lays out the pathway or specifies the perceptions yeah it restricts entropy and well

01:25:25.700 then let me just unpack that for the listener it's that when you say okay like this is my view i've got

01:25:30.520 this then the uncertainty is reduced and yeah you've got yeah to almost nothing well and then there's

01:25:36.080 actual physiological consequences of that because what happens if you especially involuntarily enter a

01:25:42.640 high entropy state you start burning up future resources at you you burn up resources that could

01:25:49.780 be conserved in the future in the present and what that actually does is age you right so that's that's

01:25:57.320 an elevate imagine a chronically elevated stress response in response to additional uncertainty

01:26:02.580 that's right and one of the main exactly one of the main goals of the brain always is to reduce

01:26:07.100 energy expenditure of course on the on the immediate time scale yeah of course yep of course so that's

01:26:12.220 the other thing that happens too is that and this is i think the other side of the emotional um uh

01:26:19.040 landscape so a specified and constrained aim reduces entropy that's that's very that's like i think

01:26:26.920 that's the crucial issue but it also sets up the framework within which hope is possible

01:26:31.940 because to the degree that hope is dopaminergically mediated right it's a consequence see friston

01:26:38.360 actually had a unified theory i he told me about this when i interviewed him because i had worked

01:26:43.320 out the anxiety entropy theory with my lab in a separate paper but he said something that i didn't

01:26:49.140 know at all dopaminergic pleasure is also an entropy reduction phenomenon and this is why it's so cool so

01:26:56.400 imagine that you have your aim your goal and now you can compute the energy required to get there

01:27:02.940 okay now that the the farther you away from their goal the more uncertainty there is in in the pursuit

01:27:09.960 now if you take one step toward your goal and you do that successfully you get a mark of positive

01:27:15.760 emotion from that that's a dopaminergic kick but that does indicate an entropy reduction yeah so both

01:27:22.080 positive and negative emotion regulation are associated with entropy reduction oh lovely yeah

01:27:27.140 no kidding well that's a key thing to know when you're thinking why are people so glued to their

01:27:32.160 worldviews it's like well because their positive emotion is dependent on and the regulation of their

01:27:37.380 negative emotion it's like oh okay and it's a positive feedback loop because once you have

01:27:41.960 your point of view on something then of course we know about confirmation bias another way you seek

01:27:46.440 data that that merely validates and you ignore the data that speaks against it well you can

01:27:51.940 see that given what we talked about with regard to perception you can see why that's the case

01:27:56.520 once i specify an aim what i'm going to see are things that move me towards the aim exactly that means the

01:28:03.720 contradictory information not only is irrelevant should be irrelevant like if i'm trying to walk

01:28:09.180 across the room i shouldn't be attending to every potential obstacle that could conceivably exist

01:28:14.380 yeah right i've already simplified things so the obstacles aren't even there right exactly by the way

01:28:20.800 which makes me want to come back to a point that you mentioned about socially seeing people as

01:28:25.340 friends or foes in fact the way we see most people in the world are strangers yeah you don't need to

01:28:31.340 worry yeah exactly you're relevant most things are irrelevant exactly most things are irrelevant yeah

01:28:34.900 yeah and thank god for that yeah exactly so that's analogous here um so um hallucinogens seem to blow

01:28:42.640 that into pieces by the way that's what they do is oh they cause you to pay attention yeah exactly right

01:28:48.260 yeah yeah yeah you pay attention everything becomes relevant so that's the that's the awe-inspiring

01:28:53.460 element of the experience but it's also very very very high entropy yeah right right and you know

01:28:59.000 what i was going to say that this also ties back to another thing about maturation maturation as uh who

01:29:04.820 is it i think it was fitzgerald who said is the ability to hold two contradictory ideas in mind at the

01:29:10.340 same time so so what we're trying to do always is get our our aim to reduce the entropy our worldview

01:29:18.300 but you know as we mature we say okay look it could be this on the other hand it could be that

01:29:22.520 and the ability to hold that and not have that to have a slightly higher entropy and not have that be

01:29:27.440 stressful to us um i don't know that i have kind of a model not a bad that's not a bad definition of a

01:29:33.740 kind of a true confidence right yeah right and well but and it it's also the it is the model of

01:29:40.840 sophisticated thinking because one of the one of the things you do when you think is voluntary enter

01:29:45.480 into a higher entropy state because to really think something through is to allow internal conflict to

01:29:50.980 manifest itself everything the different ideas you have are different manifestations of of different

01:30:00.080 names yeah and so when you think this is what we're trying to train people in university it's like

01:30:05.500 be resilient in the face of voluntarily confronted entropy at least on the cognitive side that's great

01:30:11.440 and maybe instead of think we could call it something like reconsider because it's i mean there's

01:30:16.640 this i only say this because thinking is sort of a term that might have too much semantic weight on it

01:30:21.600 yeah but but reconsider meaning okay i've already considered this i know exactly how to think about it

01:30:26.680 low entropy but now i'm going to reconsider this i'm going to think about what if i what if i'm wrong

01:30:31.980 about this what if it's a totally other model well so there's also evidence this is very cool too

01:30:37.000 there's evidence that if you do that involuntarily the entropy state is higher than if you do it

01:30:43.020 voluntarily and the evidence is very profound it's very profound and so if you take a stance of

01:30:49.140 voluntary confrontation with conflict the stress consequence is much minimized

01:30:55.300 over when it happens voluntarily that's partly why exposure works in in behavior therapy so if you

01:31:02.480 have someone who's traumatized and they're involuntarily exposed to a trigger they get worse

01:31:07.120 but if they voluntarily expose themselves they get better right even though the you know the stimulus

01:31:13.680 so to speak is the same and i think it's it has something to do with a high order meta narrative

01:31:20.920 like the highest order merit meta narrative should be something like i can contend successfully with

01:31:27.580 maybe with entropy it's certainly with chaos that's the sort of creature that i want to be that i should

01:31:33.520 be yeah right right because then when it comes up you don't you don't have a reaction to it yeah exactly

01:31:38.900 yeah oh that's interesting and i imagine this comes up a lot because people are involuntarily

01:31:43.900 confronted with their let's say their political views often there's a whole social component of that

01:31:48.760 which is i'm getting challenged by this person maybe in front of other people that sort of thing

01:31:53.800 and so there's all this other stuff that comes into play yeah but if you get to sit in your the piece

01:31:58.400 of your own home and think you know what if i'm wrong what if the other parties point on this bill

01:32:03.060 what would that look like what would that look like yeah that's a much calmer situation yeah well the

01:32:06.740 the social element of that is is also an entropy issue as far as i can tell because imagine that

01:32:12.620 this took me a long time to parse through so the higher you are in a hierarchy social hierarchy the

01:32:19.320 lower entropy your state your connection networks are better your shelter is better your security is

01:32:25.300 better like that's all part of being higher in a hierarchy okay now the question is what gives you

01:32:31.420 the right to that position and the answer to that is something like the accuracy and your accuracy and

01:32:38.980 view and your competence right if it's a functional hierarchy yeah okay so now i come along and

01:32:43.980 challenge you okay so part of that i'm going to cause internal distress in the manner that we

01:32:49.000 described but i'm also questioning the validity of your grip on the position in that hierarchy so

01:32:54.720 imagine a faculty meeting where you make a presentation or a professor makes a presentation

01:32:59.320 and a first-year graduate student stands up and issues a successful challenge now some of that's

01:33:05.220 ideational and you might say well maybe he's got a better theory but some of it is a challenge to

01:33:11.520 the validity of the fact that you're higher in the hierarchy than he is absolutely right and that you

01:33:16.300 know that's played out yes yeah right so yeah yeah so that's also an entropy issue even the sociological

01:33:23.000 element of yeah yeah yeah i'm always interested in these old uh you know the physicists in the early

01:33:27.780 20th century you know einstein was giving a presentation and i'm afraid i forgot if it was i think it was

01:33:32.880 heisenberg who challenged a young kid challenged him and einstein said you know i think you're right

01:33:38.100 and he went home and worked on the problem for five days and came back but i'm just you know these

01:33:42.860 stories of that kind of challenge and and einstein had you know a very mature reaction right right well

01:33:48.800 that i think a fair bit of the uh what would you say the the the fundamental psychological necessity

01:33:55.940 of something like hero mythology is the inculcation of the attitude that you just described as

01:34:01.900 characteristic of einstein it's like here's a challenge it's like i can handle that yeah i don't

01:34:08.800 have to get defensive it's not going to throw me off maybe there's opportunity that's the dragon

01:34:13.320 and the treasure by the way maybe there's opportunity here in this challenge right that's a

01:34:18.080 very high order match it takes very high order maturation to realize that in every challenge there's

01:34:23.540 opportunity right right right and that's something you can practice it's an attitude that you can

01:34:28.520 practice yes okay we should stop okay we're going to move to the daily wire side what are we going

01:34:35.080 to talk about on the daily wire side i think we should delve more into your book and you have some

01:34:38.460 ideas great well yeah my brain plasticity so we didn't talk about that at all but i've got all kinds

01:34:42.800 of cool stuff to talk about there okay so everybody who's watching if you want to join us on the daily

01:34:46.940 wire side for an additional half an hour please feel free to do that apart from that thank you very

01:34:52.660 much for your time and attention thank you very much for coming here to scottsdale today much

01:34:56.760 appreciated and for teaching our course on the peterson academy which is has got a lovely trailer

01:35:01.820 which i think we're going to incorporate into this podcast actually and um i know that the reaction

01:35:07.420 to your course has been very positive so far and so we're thrilled about that you can catch that

01:35:12.320 on peterson academy by the way thanks for your time and attention everybody

01:35:16.000 you

01:35:27.240 you

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - February 20, 2025

523. Why We Dream, Learn, and Adapt Faster Than Any Other Species ｜ Dr. David Eagleman

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