The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 524. Why Russell Brand Abandoned Hedonism

00:00:00.000 If there is a Jesus, you're not Jesus.

00:00:03.280 You are not at the center, and neither is anybody else.

00:00:06.000 If you're not united by responsibility and by voluntary self-sacrifice,

00:00:10.060 you will be united by power.

00:00:12.260 To let you know that the ego's still in here,

00:00:14.200 I may have given up wanting to be Jesus Christ,

00:00:16.400 but I'm going to give as best a shot as I can give at being poor.

00:00:20.260 If you lose your individual relationship with divine guidance,

00:00:23.740 the only thing that can possibly emerge is either chaos or despotic force.

00:00:27.700 Elon Musk, in a matter of posts, can disrupt, elevate new potential kings,

00:00:33.720 desiccate them and remove them in a matter of moments.

00:00:37.380 Are you hopeful, and what are your concerns?

00:00:40.100 So, I had the opportunity today to once again sit down with Russell Brand.

00:01:00.080 We've talked quite a bit, and we're getting to know each other quite well,

00:01:03.060 which makes the discussions even more interesting and faster-paced.

00:01:06.480 And we started out with a discussion of Christianity, and it's, what would you say?

00:01:14.660 The challenge that it poses in its fundamental elements to the doctrines of dissolution,

00:01:21.920 so you could say that on the nihilistic side,

00:01:24.500 and to the insistence that the only proper centralizing and unifying force is power.

00:01:32.300 And so, well, both of those are very powerful arguments.

00:01:37.440 One, the nihilistic argument is that everything is fundamentally meaningless and fragmented,

00:01:41.160 and that all unity of any sort is an illusion in this, like, veil of tears, entropy-ridden veil of tears.

00:01:47.860 And the contrary position to that on the side of power is that only the naive believe that unifying forces

00:01:55.360 are anything but the imposition of compulsion and power,

00:01:58.220 and that it's, as I said, it's terminally, willfully blind to assume that there are any principles

00:02:04.780 other than the Hobbesian battle of all against all.

00:02:09.200 Well, is there an alternative to that?

00:02:10.860 Well, the Western alternative, the Judeo-Christian alternative,

00:02:16.000 has been, forever been, something like the proposition that an ethos of voluntary self-sacrifice

00:02:22.500 is the alternative to nihilism and to power.

00:02:26.440 And, well, we tried to sort that out and to clarify that more particularly,

00:02:31.360 to investigate that claim and to see what it means in the context of relatively formal religious beliefs,

00:02:37.300 say, specifically belief in Christianity, and with regards to the alternatives.

00:02:41.880 Like, there's, we're definitely at something approximating the end of the Enlightenment.

00:02:46.500 That's partly what the culture war is about.

00:02:48.280 The rationalists and empiricists, their account of the world was insufficient.

00:02:52.280 The postmodernists challenged it with a high degree of success,

00:02:55.340 although they turned to power, and that was a dreadful mistake.

00:02:58.860 Well, everyone is, what would you say, feeling out what the alternative might be,

00:03:04.620 and the discussion we had today is an attempt to further that process.

00:03:07.600 So, join us for that.

00:03:08.960 How's this Christianity thing working out for you?

00:03:12.400 It's a powerful transforming agent.

00:03:15.100 It's beautiful to moment to moment know that if he is the creator of all things,

00:03:21.460 then his DNA is present in every moment, in every moment.

00:03:25.560 The continual renewal of the mind that it talks of in Romans

00:03:29.760 seems comparable, at least, to ideologies that I'm somewhat more familiar with,

00:03:37.400 corral together loosely under the term new age.

00:03:40.820 Stay continually present in the moment.

00:03:43.200 Die unto yourself.

00:03:44.340 Allow yourself to die, as it says in Galatians.

00:03:46.440 Be born again, moment to moment.

00:03:48.940 Now, as we enter this period of wild and giddying flux, Jordan,

00:03:55.180 it seems that a route to eternity is a valuable escape hatch to have identified.

00:04:05.020 So, how it feels...

00:04:08.260 I'm reading Genesis right now.

00:04:10.480 Have you read it?

00:04:11.060 Have you done a course on it?

00:04:12.700 And, like, there's...

00:04:14.140 Like, even when you're reading about Sodom and Lot,

00:04:19.160 and reading about, like, a culture of gang rape

00:04:24.360 that precedes the storm of fire,

00:04:29.080 it feels like, yeah, I'm reading that,

00:04:30.940 then I'm, like, you know, sort of scrolling on X

00:04:33.620 and looking at the world,

00:04:35.000 and the hills are an inferno,

00:04:39.620 and Britain is beset with a rape gang crisis

00:04:44.760 that appears to be being handled in an unusual way

00:04:48.700 bureaucratically.

00:04:50.160 The pillars and institutions are quaking and shaking.

00:04:54.640 Too much intersection, inappropriateness section,

00:04:58.280 between the judiciary, the media, and the government.

00:05:01.920 Not a lack...

00:05:03.000 Not enough proper coordination and interconnection

00:05:06.760 and communication between those same institutions.

00:05:09.320 Because I suppose you want coordination,

00:05:11.640 but what you don't want is conspiracy.

00:05:14.680 You want agreement in principle,

00:05:16.720 which is very different than, like,

00:05:18.320 conscious and, what would you say,

00:05:21.180 incentivized coordination.

00:05:22.940 So this beginner's mind...

00:05:24.760 So I did a course for Peterson Academy

00:05:27.220 on the Sermon on the Mount.

00:05:29.840 And so I thought I would mention something about that

00:05:34.240 in relationship to this idea of, like,

00:05:36.520 every moment being born anew, let's say.

00:05:39.400 So in the Sermon on the Mount,

00:05:42.540 Christ says to focus your attention on what's most high.

00:05:49.680 And so you could think about that,

00:05:51.080 even if you don't exactly know what that means,

00:05:53.300 you could think about that as the attempt

00:05:54.980 to get your intent right.

00:05:56.940 So insofar as you can conceptualize what the good is,

00:06:00.160 even in your ignorance,

00:06:01.480 that's what you're trying to put first and foremost.

00:06:04.360 So you do that first,

00:06:05.820 and then you attend to the moment.

00:06:07.980 And so then you get the advantage

00:06:09.720 of a kind of a distal view,

00:06:11.360 which is associated with life eternal,

00:06:14.220 you might say,

00:06:14.860 and what's important at the pinnacle of all things.

00:06:17.720 But then you get that hyper-attention on the moment

00:06:20.160 that makes everything born anew.

00:06:22.560 And, you know,

00:06:23.620 psychologists have cottoned on to that

00:06:25.160 to some degree with their discussion

00:06:26.580 of concepts like flow.

00:06:28.260 Because if you've got your act together

00:06:30.240 and you're oriented upward

00:06:31.600 and you're conversing

00:06:32.660 or you're engaged in an activity,

00:06:35.000 that sense of unity with things does emerge.

00:06:39.200 And that involves a lack of self-consciousness

00:06:41.900 and the ability to focus in a very intense way.

00:06:45.440 And I think that's associated, by the way,

00:06:47.320 there's an insistence in the Old Testament

00:06:49.060 that the first board is to be sanctified to God.

00:06:52.840 And I think what that means is that

00:06:55.160 you imagine that your life is made out of episodes,

00:06:57.580 which is how you would recount your day, let's say.

00:07:00.440 First, this happened, then this.

00:07:02.100 And then there'd be a conclusion.

00:07:03.660 Then there'd be another event.

00:07:05.120 The question is,

00:07:06.480 what attitude should you use to frame each new event?

00:07:10.400 And the attitude that's put forward as optimized

00:07:14.340 in the Sermon on the Mount

00:07:16.140 is that when anything new begins,

00:07:19.020 you want to reorient yourself to what's highest.

00:07:21.600 So you think, well, how can I make of this opportunity

00:07:25.600 the best possible event?

00:07:29.280 Like, how could I orient myself

00:07:30.640 so that I would be participating in that?

00:07:33.220 And you do that every time

00:07:35.180 there's a transformation of viewpoint.

00:07:37.540 And yeah, that way you get to have your cake

00:07:40.540 and eat it too, you might say.

00:07:42.000 I'm going to do it now.

00:07:43.060 Seek thee first the kingdom of God.

00:07:45.900 Seek thee first the kingdom of God.

00:07:47.500 And I'm thinking, I'm in a conversation right now

00:07:49.440 with Jordan Peterson.

00:07:50.920 And how do I orient myself in this moment,

00:07:55.560 in this situation?

00:07:56.640 Now, it feels like amidst the flux

00:07:59.580 that we've earlier addressed,

00:08:02.100 or at least alluded to,

00:08:04.260 it appears that much of what you came to represent

00:08:08.640 as you emerged in public life

00:08:10.620 has proven to be true.

00:08:13.120 It's not like the culture has just shifted.

00:08:14.840 We aren't going to see so many pronouns in the bios.

00:08:18.320 We're not going to see an escalation

00:08:20.260 in gender-approving surgery.

00:08:23.820 Hopefully that won't be concomitant

00:08:25.760 with a lack of compassion for people,

00:08:28.340 some people that are different

00:08:31.080 and do identify differently.

00:08:33.420 Indeed, one of the things I'm most hopeful about Jordan

00:08:37.160 is that with the transitions of power

00:08:39.540 that are taking place

00:08:40.500 and the way that it appears to be bleeding

00:08:43.540 or at least influencing

00:08:45.100 outside of its political jurisdiction,

00:08:47.880 like we're seeing, like, how American power,

00:08:49.640 and in particular the influence of Elon Musk,

00:08:51.400 which is a truly global power,

00:08:53.460 and now when I said globalism,

00:08:56.520 like, 18 months ago,

00:08:58.240 I meant something different

00:08:59.480 to what I might mean when I say globalism now,

00:09:01.880 because it appears that Elon Musk

00:09:04.020 in a matter of posts can disrupt,

00:09:06.780 elevate new potential kings,

00:09:09.560 desiccate them and remove them

00:09:11.500 in a matter of moments.

00:09:13.440 And it's interesting to see

00:09:15.580 how the old world will reorder itself

00:09:18.820 on the basis of what's emergent now.

00:09:20.940 And the reason that I feel

00:09:23.240 that Christianity is so significant

00:09:25.280 is because it's significant

00:09:26.580 with regards to every single issue.

00:09:29.060 But now that we don't have,

00:09:31.440 as we did with the previous project,

00:09:34.100 an attempt to completely control

00:09:36.580 ideological life through politics,

00:09:40.280 we're not going to be altering language

00:09:42.600 wildly and radically.

00:09:43.820 We're not at war with nature

00:09:45.200 and old taxonomies.

00:09:46.840 We're not seeking to annihilate

00:09:49.140 the principle of God

00:09:50.340 that we may lay claim to his kingdom.

00:09:52.900 I wonder how these new forms of government

00:09:55.980 may evolve and unfold.

00:09:58.160 And I wonder how these new forms

00:10:00.780 of nationalism might develop.

00:10:03.900 Well, we've been,

00:10:04.740 for this ARC enterprise,

00:10:07.880 we've been trying to wrestle

00:10:09.580 exactly with that issue.

00:10:11.580 And I think your comments about,

00:10:13.420 you know, Elon, let's say,

00:10:15.440 as a globalist force

00:10:16.640 that isn't exactly akin

00:10:18.740 to the previous globalist forces,

00:10:20.820 like, well, maybe we've tried

00:10:22.620 to distinguish this technically

00:10:24.080 in our discussions at ARC.

00:10:26.220 OK, so here's some principles.

00:10:27.380 Tell me what you think about them.

00:10:29.280 Policy that requires force and fear

00:10:31.440 is indicative of it's at least suboptimal

00:10:34.440 and it's probably tyrannical.

00:10:36.000 So that one of the ways you determine

00:10:38.280 whether a policy is acceptable

00:10:39.680 is whether or not it's invitational.

00:10:41.840 Right.

00:10:42.180 And so it'd be like,

00:10:42.940 I make you an offer

00:10:43.840 and hopefully you're on board voluntarily,

00:10:46.520 which would make you

00:10:47.280 a much more efficient participant as well.

00:10:49.260 And even if you're not

00:10:50.380 fully enthusiastic about it,

00:10:52.260 you can't think of a better alternative

00:10:54.220 that you would lay claim to.

00:10:55.740 Right.

00:10:55.900 So it's like you can imagine

00:10:57.500 if we're going to negotiate reasonably,

00:10:59.260 we might say, well,

00:11:00.340 we're going to be duty bound

00:11:01.520 to accept the best offer

00:11:02.900 we can conceive of.

00:11:04.220 Right.

00:11:04.420 I mean, hopefully it'll be one

00:11:05.580 that also fills you with enthusiasm.

00:11:07.080 But in the absence of that,

00:11:08.780 at least you won't be able

00:11:09.660 to think of a better alternative.

00:11:10.920 So no power, no force, no fear.

00:11:15.440 Right.

00:11:15.680 And then the other thing

00:11:18.300 that we've toyed with,

00:11:19.480 let's say, or played with

00:11:20.560 is the idea that

00:11:21.620 not only does the vision of the future

00:11:24.980 have to be invitational,

00:11:26.360 there has to be an element of play about it.

00:11:28.760 Because like I studied play fairly deeply

00:11:31.600 neurophysiologically

00:11:33.600 and play is a really interesting

00:11:35.360 motivational state

00:11:36.580 because it's very fragile.

00:11:37.740 It can be disrupted by almost

00:11:40.020 any other motivational state.

00:11:41.960 So the sense of play,

00:11:43.600 which is like direction

00:11:45.720 with variability, right?

00:11:47.180 Because that's play,

00:11:48.100 is direction with variability.

00:11:49.540 That only emerges

00:11:50.580 when the situation,

00:11:53.460 say, of communication

00:11:55.040 and cooperation has been optimized.

00:11:57.760 So then you might say another way

00:11:59.040 that you can tell

00:11:59.720 if the venture is proceeding well

00:12:01.460 is that if everybody engaged in it

00:12:03.260 can engage in a sense of play.

00:12:05.900 And I like the play idea,

00:12:07.240 partly because it's voluntary, obviously,

00:12:09.500 but also because play implies

00:12:11.420 a fair bit of tolerance

00:12:13.020 for, you know,

00:12:14.340 for deviation along the path.

00:12:16.060 Yes, yes, yes, yes.

00:12:16.980 The vicissitude.

00:12:18.280 Now, I'm assuming

00:12:19.160 that your experience

00:12:19.940 as a clinical psychologist

00:12:21.220 must be primarily interpersonal,

00:12:22.940 although you will ultimately

00:12:23.880 be dealing with large data sets.

00:12:25.620 But the reason I'm fascinated

00:12:26.600 that you'd bring up play

00:12:27.420 so early in our conversation

00:12:29.000 is because when precisely

00:12:30.480 looking at the posts

00:12:31.880 of Elon Musk and Trump,

00:12:33.620 Trump saying, you know,

00:12:34.780 make Canada the 51st state

00:12:36.780 or we're going to reach

00:12:38.060 all the way down to Panama

00:12:38.900 or we're having Greenland

00:12:40.020 or Elon Musk's sort of

00:12:42.320 puckish pugnaciousness

00:12:46.020 in dealing with his detractors

00:12:48.320 on his own platform

00:12:49.480 doesn't have that kind of

00:12:51.700 haughtiness and piety

00:12:54.020 that we remember,

00:12:54.840 that kind of Pharisee-like

00:12:56.960 certainty of the materialist,

00:12:59.920 rationalist,

00:13:00.840 neoliberal oligarchs

00:13:02.820 who appear now

00:13:04.040 to be being displaced.

00:13:05.960 This play, though,

00:13:07.460 I wonder, Jordan,

00:13:08.840 and this is not an assertion

00:13:10.200 that I'm making

00:13:10.600 with regard to the

00:13:11.360 previous listed individuals,

00:13:12.980 I know our audience

00:13:13.980 when it comes to Trump

00:13:14.920 and Musk and stuff,

00:13:16.200 but there isn't there mischief

00:13:18.180 and play in the demonic also.

00:13:21.040 Now, the reason I like play,

00:13:23.260 one, I'm a comedian,

00:13:24.280 one, I enjoy liminal spaces

00:13:26.300 and I enjoy the uncertainty

00:13:27.660 that's a prerequisite of play.

00:13:29.740 The true spirit of pioneering discovery

00:13:33.020 that it is encompassed with in play.

00:13:35.900 And I enjoy, actually,

00:13:37.980 in fact, perhaps much

00:13:39.220 of the Trump phenomena

00:13:40.220 was this politician

00:13:41.480 isn't talking like other politicians

00:13:43.820 way back 2015 with Hillary Clinton

00:13:45.960 because you'd be in jail.

00:13:47.520 That moment, it's like,

00:13:48.620 people don't say that.

00:13:50.800 Up against the sort of school mom

00:13:53.400 sort of bluster and haughtiness.

00:13:57.280 Like, you know,

00:13:59.100 sort of the English

00:13:59.840 have bequeathed to the world

00:14:01.160 abundantly.

00:14:02.020 That kind of sort of

00:14:03.000 Victorian certainty

00:14:04.820 glanced the not at the piano leg

00:14:07.280 in case you feel

00:14:08.520 a tumescent stirring in the loins.

00:14:11.600 Total lack of joy in play.

00:14:13.940 Now, isn't it interesting

00:14:15.080 to see that tool of play

00:14:16.740 wielded now by the truly powerful,

00:14:19.680 by Trump and Musk?

00:14:20.820 It'll be interesting

00:14:21.420 because, you know,

00:14:22.500 their detractors continue.

00:14:23.780 Like, you know,

00:14:24.100 you might see a late night

00:14:25.340 talk show host saying,

00:14:26.980 see, I told you,

00:14:28.360 I told you,

00:14:29.320 they're going to take over Canada.

00:14:31.300 What's Elon Musk doing

00:14:32.520 meddling in British politics?

00:14:34.200 But regardless of the,

00:14:35.880 again, as a Christian,

00:14:37.340 regardless of the interview,

00:14:38.280 you know,

00:14:38.700 Trump's not God.

00:14:40.000 Musk's not God.

00:14:40.980 They're all human beings

00:14:41.880 that are going to come and go.

00:14:42.800 And perhaps,

00:14:43.240 I've been thinking this

00:14:44.020 about Elon Musk

00:14:44.660 somewhat lately.

00:14:45.420 Is there a point

00:14:47.700 where order of magnitude

00:14:49.800 alters essence?

00:14:51.480 I.e.,

00:14:52.180 is not Musk

00:14:53.180 just a reiteration of Murdoch?

00:14:55.840 Because, you know,

00:14:56.740 Tony Blair used to kowtow,

00:14:58.380 bend the knee,

00:14:59.060 go on holiday

00:14:59.880 to ensure that Murdoch

00:15:01.820 would support

00:15:02.480 his new Labour movement.

00:15:05.200 It was understood

00:15:05.940 that Thatcher required Murdoch.

00:15:07.540 It was understood

00:15:08.360 that if Murdoch

00:15:09.680 unleashed an ocean of ink

00:15:11.880 against an opposition party,

00:15:14.140 the government

00:15:15.000 would remain in power.

00:15:16.540 Now, Murdoch,

00:15:17.800 he still has some power

00:15:19.420 across the Anglophonic world.

00:15:21.420 And, you know,

00:15:21.800 I don't know what

00:15:22.380 Murdoch's power is like now.

00:15:24.400 But what I know

00:15:25.100 is that Elon Musk

00:15:25.900 is like a version

00:15:27.300 of a media magnate,

00:15:28.700 at least when it comes

00:15:29.460 to the social media aspect

00:15:30.840 of his vast enterprises.

00:15:33.040 But when it becomes

00:15:34.420 not a 20-minute perusal

00:15:36.780 of some rag,

00:15:38.280 but an ever-present mirror

00:15:40.060 reflecting back

00:15:41.180 an ongoing conversation,

00:15:42.500 the ability to manoeuvre

00:15:44.500 and censor that,

00:15:45.320 as well as the manner

00:15:46.660 in which he's conducting

00:15:47.820 that conversation,

00:15:48.580 again, not the sort of

00:15:49.640 what would appear to be,

00:15:50.480 and perhaps I'm being naive,

00:15:51.380 the economically led

00:15:53.320 kind of, I imagine,

00:15:54.800 Dow Jones-watching

00:15:56.500 sort of traditional

00:15:58.040 entrenched mentality

00:15:59.720 of Digger,

00:16:00.460 for that was the nickname,

00:16:02.060 wasn't it,

00:16:02.480 of Murdoch.

00:16:03.780 You now see this sort of,

00:16:05.500 well, perhaps again,

00:16:07.740 it's the technology

00:16:08.580 that leads

00:16:09.520 because the technology now,

00:16:11.380 diffuse, cybernetics,

00:16:13.580 no-

00:16:13.720 Instant.

00:16:15.040 Instantaneous systems

00:16:16.180 taking place

00:16:16.960 in the present

00:16:17.440 because our systems

00:16:19.300 for understanding God

00:16:20.420 were mechanical

00:16:21.020 in the industrial age.

00:16:22.400 They were agricultural

00:16:24.700 at the advent

00:16:26.020 of that significant

00:16:27.580 seismic shift

00:16:28.540 in our kind's

00:16:29.920 Welt und Schoen.

00:16:30.960 So now,

00:16:31.940 now that we have

00:16:32.580 this instantaneous,

00:16:33.840 omnipresent potentiality,

00:16:36.280 maybe everything's changing.

00:16:37.440 So in short,

00:16:38.460 what I'm saying is,

00:16:39.560 is what's happening now

00:16:41.580 entirely unique

00:16:42.760 because it is temporal,

00:16:45.100 because of the temporal component,

00:16:46.620 because of this instantaneous,

00:16:48.060 immersive ability

00:16:48.800 to alter conversation?

00:16:50.540 Maybe it no longer

00:16:52.040 is even paradigmatically

00:16:54.600 the same, Jordan.

00:16:55.540 Well, you know,

00:16:56.920 I just did an interview

00:16:58.420 with Pierre Poliev,

00:17:00.200 who's going to be

00:17:00.940 the next Prime Minister

00:17:01.720 of Canada

00:17:02.240 in all likelihood,

00:17:03.260 and he chose

00:17:04.720 to speak with me

00:17:06.760 in depth

00:17:07.260 instead of talking

00:17:08.260 to the legacy media,

00:17:09.580 let's say.

00:17:09.940 And it was actually

00:17:10.520 rather comical

00:17:11.260 from my perspective

00:17:12.180 because all the legacy media

00:17:14.680 outlets in Canada

00:17:15.600 had to play catch-up,

00:17:16.840 which I contemplated

00:17:19.280 with some degree

00:17:20.000 of, you know,

00:17:20.660 inappropriate satisfaction.

00:17:22.220 But there's something,

00:17:23.580 so we had to talk

00:17:24.420 about that

00:17:24.860 because Poliev

00:17:26.500 had expressed some doubts

00:17:28.400 about his performance

00:17:29.360 in the discussion.

00:17:31.420 He said there were

00:17:32.140 many topics

00:17:32.880 he didn't get to.

00:17:34.440 And so we talked

00:17:35.080 about that,

00:17:35.460 and I said,

00:17:35.820 well, you know,

00:17:37.220 the long-form podcast format

00:17:40.300 can't be manipulated

00:17:43.100 a priori successfully

00:17:44.500 because if you come

00:17:45.600 to the podcast

00:17:46.300 with a set of talking points

00:17:48.600 and you stick

00:17:49.540 to your script,

00:17:50.260 you're going to get,

00:17:51.100 first of all,

00:17:51.760 no one will watch you,

00:17:52.920 and I've seen this

00:17:53.700 with political figures.

00:17:54.540 This isn't a guess.

00:17:55.580 I know this is the case.

00:17:56.860 No one will watch you,

00:17:58.080 and all the comments

00:17:59.140 will be negative.

00:18:00.220 You have to come there

00:18:01.180 knowing where you stand,

00:18:02.600 but ready to follow

00:18:04.780 the thread of the conversation

00:18:06.100 wherever it goes.

00:18:06.860 And to do that,

00:18:07.720 you have to sacrifice

00:18:08.820 the pre-planning.

00:18:10.340 Okay, so then we might

00:18:11.200 look into that more deeply,

00:18:12.360 and we might say,

00:18:13.180 well, now that video

00:18:16.000 is predominating,

00:18:18.100 let's say,

00:18:18.700 over the written word,

00:18:21.980 that means that

00:18:23.440 that might mean

00:18:24.500 the reemergence

00:18:25.280 of something like spontaneity

00:18:26.820 over propaganda.

00:18:29.460 Like, that could be the case

00:18:30.860 because the new media forms

00:18:33.340 do prioritize spontaneity

00:18:35.480 instead of preparation.

00:18:36.620 Now, you can see that

00:18:37.800 as a technological shift.

00:18:39.140 You know,

00:18:39.680 back when bandwidth

00:18:40.660 was staggeringly expensive

00:18:43.500 and every second

00:18:44.380 on broadcast media

00:18:45.540 cost a fortune,

00:18:47.080 you could imagine

00:18:48.140 that risk minimization

00:18:49.440 was the name of the game

00:18:50.540 and that every second

00:18:51.980 had to be controlled.

00:18:54.060 But that restriction

00:18:55.780 is no longer present

00:18:57.160 even at all.

00:18:59.040 And so,

00:18:59.580 what that should mean,

00:19:00.780 what that might mean,

00:19:01.700 and that's what you're referring to,

00:19:03.200 is that an entirely

00:19:04.040 new form of political discourse

00:19:06.240 might emerge

00:19:07.000 and that people

00:19:08.100 who are capable

00:19:08.780 of generating

00:19:10.720 a certain degree

00:19:11.620 of perspicacity

00:19:13.480 and wisdom spontaneously

00:19:14.820 are going to be prioritized

00:19:16.600 over those

00:19:17.120 who have a bent

00:19:18.680 towards incentivized

00:19:20.240 or instrumental manipulation.

00:19:22.340 I mean,

00:19:22.800 Pauliev could do that, right?

00:19:23.880 He had a conversation with me.

00:19:25.120 He got no questions

00:19:26.080 ahead of time, none.

00:19:27.700 And so,

00:19:28.180 and he was willing

00:19:28.800 to go along with that.

00:19:29.980 But it is really

00:19:30.880 a completely different way of,

00:19:32.820 now,

00:19:33.140 we've been talking

00:19:33.740 to Democrats too,

00:19:35.040 trying to get them

00:19:35.820 on the podcast circuit.

00:19:37.320 And the resistance

00:19:38.880 so far has been

00:19:40.360 the utter inability

00:19:42.020 and unwillingness

00:19:43.540 of people

00:19:43.940 on the Democrat side

00:19:45.040 to forego

00:19:46.300 their pre-planned agenda

00:19:48.320 with regards

00:19:49.240 to a conversation.

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00:21:01.420 Great, great.

00:21:03.080 Some time ago,

00:21:03.920 you said we were entering

00:21:04.920 this era of New Kings.

00:21:06.460 I don't know when you

00:21:07.500 started saying it,

00:21:08.040 but you said it to me

00:21:08.600 about a year ago.

00:21:09.760 New Kings, you said.

00:21:11.000 And I clocked it

00:21:12.040 and thought it was interesting.

00:21:13.000 And now we're sort of

00:21:13.700 seeing how that's playing out.

00:21:14.720 The boundaries are shifting.

00:21:17.520 Kind of a

00:21:18.080 cybernetic gerrymandering

00:21:21.440 as the space moves

00:21:23.800 beyond geography

00:21:24.960 and into something

00:21:26.720 more conceptual

00:21:27.960 yet actual

00:21:29.060 in so much as it can

00:21:29.860 be administrated

00:21:30.500 and it can be controlled.

00:21:32.480 Now, to your point

00:21:33.200 about spontaneity,

00:21:34.720 I wonder if it's in any way

00:21:36.840 ultimately distinct

00:21:38.000 from the sort of

00:21:38.920 Socratic idea

00:21:40.640 that the spoken word

00:21:42.300 had a distinct authenticity.

00:21:44.260 From the written word.

00:21:45.760 Yeah, I agree.

00:21:46.600 Well, and it was Socrates

00:21:47.600 who decried that,

00:21:48.700 if I remember correctly, right?

00:21:49.880 He was afraid that

00:21:50.860 if the written took primacy,

00:21:53.440 that the concretization

00:21:55.900 of thought would eliminate.

00:21:57.520 I mean, I think Foucault

00:21:58.840 wrote about that

00:21:59.660 as a matter of fact

00:22:00.600 in favor of Socrates' proposition

00:22:03.400 that the spoken

00:22:04.260 should take priority

00:22:05.140 over the written.

00:22:05.980 But it does have something

00:22:06.960 to do with this

00:22:07.860 paradoxical relationship

00:22:09.600 between propagandizing

00:22:11.380 and pre-preparation.

00:22:13.620 And see,

00:22:14.660 it isn't obvious to me

00:22:16.380 that you can lie

00:22:17.480 effectively,

00:22:18.440 spontaneously

00:22:18.960 in a conversation.

00:22:20.220 No, not necessarily

00:22:20.920 continually.

00:22:21.640 Now, you remember

00:22:22.140 about 500,000 words ago,

00:22:25.040 10 minutes ago

00:22:25.760 at the beginning

00:22:26.240 of our conversation,

00:22:27.400 we both speak

00:22:27.860 relatively quickly,

00:22:28.720 I mentioned

00:22:29.320 that an ever-present,

00:22:30.780 omnipresent God,

00:22:31.980 if God is the absolute creator,

00:22:33.440 a-temporal,

00:22:34.260 a-spatial,

00:22:34.940 outside of the limitations

00:22:36.000 of space and time,

00:22:37.080 it struck me the other day

00:22:38.880 as I was having

00:22:39.340 one of these

00:22:39.900 kind of transcendent experiences

00:22:41.860 that I've been having

00:22:42.580 since becoming Christian,

00:22:43.780 that God would be present

00:22:45.120 in every moment

00:22:45.820 and discernible

00:22:46.460 in every interaction,

00:22:47.580 that there would indeed

00:22:48.320 be narrativizable lessons.

00:22:50.460 Discernment is the right word there

00:22:51.800 because that's what

00:22:52.500 discernment is for.

00:22:53.920 Discernment is to find

00:22:54.940 the path where the sacred

00:22:56.260 manifests itself

00:22:57.140 in each moment.

00:22:57.920 Yeah, to detect

00:22:58.680 or divine,

00:22:59.840 to divine.

00:23:00.240 Yeah, to divine.

00:23:00.720 Where is it?

00:23:01.360 Yeah, to fill it out.

00:23:02.500 Where is God?

00:23:02.860 Absolutely.

00:23:03.360 Like that,

00:23:03.600 I've seen divine

00:23:04.540 as a transitive verb

00:23:05.600 rather than

00:23:06.720 as a description

00:23:07.740 of the sublime.

00:23:09.880 And what I,

00:23:11.240 so when,

00:23:12.460 to your point

00:23:13.220 about how,

00:23:14.320 now you said that thing

00:23:15.240 about new sovereigns

00:23:16.080 ages ago

00:23:16.720 and I said ages ago

00:23:18.340 after reading

00:23:18.880 Martin Goury's book

00:23:20.160 The Revolt of the Public

00:23:21.040 that there was an inevitability

00:23:22.720 that independent media

00:23:24.620 and the way that it,

00:23:25.680 you know,

00:23:25.920 Martin Goury saw this

00:23:26.640 much earlier than any of us.

00:23:27.800 He saw like,

00:23:28.520 I think he saw like,

00:23:29.140 whoa, Napster,

00:23:30.200 what that's done

00:23:30.760 to the record industry,

00:23:32.020 how's that going to play out?

00:23:33.100 Wait a second.

00:23:33.960 And then he saw like,

00:23:34.600 you know,

00:23:34.780 Arab Spring,

00:23:35.900 Occupy Movement,

00:23:37.420 Brexit,

00:23:38.300 Trump,

00:23:38.680 like watching

00:23:39.680 how institutions

00:23:40.940 are unable

00:23:42.480 to adjust

00:23:43.320 to the new thermals

00:23:44.980 and the new contours

00:23:46.740 that emerge

00:23:47.820 with this sudden,

00:23:49.280 impactful

00:23:50.300 and incursive

00:23:51.340 instantaneous communication.

00:23:53.060 I said,

00:23:55.240 like as an occupant

00:23:56.600 of new media spaces

00:23:57.620 like yourself,

00:23:58.820 how long is it

00:23:59.980 before inevitably

00:24:01.040 the independent media

00:24:03.220 and a new form

00:24:05.080 of independent politics

00:24:06.660 coalesce,

00:24:08.000 align and emerge?

00:24:10.580 We're seeing it now

00:24:12.500 that it will become

00:24:13.760 so porous

00:24:14.960 as to be,

00:24:16.000 so porous

00:24:17.320 as to be

00:24:18.480 without distinction.

00:24:19.520 And it seems now

00:24:21.160 that what you want...

00:24:21.840 What distinction

00:24:22.260 are you referring to

00:24:23.140 there exactly?

00:24:23.740 Media is this category,

00:24:25.300 politics is this category.

00:24:26.400 Oh yeah, I see, I see.

00:24:27.120 Those distinctions

00:24:27.960 will disappear.

00:24:28.540 Well, Poliev,

00:24:29.120 for example,

00:24:30.160 Poliev,

00:24:30.940 I think,

00:24:31.520 has been,

00:24:32.380 he's certainly been

00:24:33.000 the most effective

00:24:33.720 Canadian politician

00:24:34.720 on this front,

00:24:35.580 but he might be

00:24:36.060 the most effective

00:24:36.760 politician in the

00:24:37.920 Western world

00:24:38.500 at the moment

00:24:39.080 in using new media.

00:24:40.680 So one of the things

00:24:41.360 he's done,

00:24:41.860 for example,

00:24:42.780 is write and produce

00:24:44.780 10-minute documentaries

00:24:45.920 to educate Canadians

00:24:47.160 about economic reality.

00:24:48.760 He's done that

00:24:49.220 very effectively.

00:24:50.040 They're very high-quality

00:24:50.960 documentaries,

00:24:52.060 and he told me

00:24:52.740 that he writes them

00:24:54.040 and narrates them,

00:24:55.000 which is, you know,

00:24:55.880 quite an interesting

00:24:56.600 skill set,

00:24:57.280 because that's quite

00:24:57.840 divorced from

00:24:58.520 typical politicking.

00:25:00.220 But it is,

00:25:01.180 you know,

00:25:01.620 the thing is,

00:25:02.480 is the intermediaries,

00:25:04.460 in some ways,

00:25:05.140 the intermediaries

00:25:05.980 are no longer necessary

00:25:07.260 between the leaders

00:25:08.220 and the populace.

00:25:09.620 You know,

00:25:10.020 this is something

00:25:10.700 that the MAGA

00:25:12.640 and the MAHA types

00:25:13.960 are trying to work

00:25:15.080 out right now

00:25:15.800 from a strategic perspective

00:25:18.120 is like,

00:25:18.580 oh,

00:25:19.140 we now have the opportunity

00:25:20.580 to communicate

00:25:21.320 directly to the public

00:25:23.000 at indefinite length,

00:25:25.040 right?

00:25:25.220 Because also,

00:25:26.080 the technological constraints

00:25:27.860 that made everything

00:25:28.580 compressed into a 30-second

00:25:29.800 soundbite,

00:25:30.460 that's gone.

00:25:32.080 And so then,

00:25:33.060 Pauliev has been

00:25:33.800 very effective

00:25:34.440 at just talking directly

00:25:35.500 to the Canadian public,

00:25:36.440 and that's why he won

00:25:37.260 the Conservative leadership,

00:25:38.640 and it's part of the reason,

00:25:40.220 along with Trudeau's

00:25:41.140 catastrophic failure,

00:25:42.400 that he's going to be

00:25:43.040 the next Prime Minister.

00:25:43.840 But it does,

00:25:45.120 it is a sea change,

00:25:46.360 and it is driven,

00:25:47.300 you know,

00:25:47.540 in large part

00:25:48.200 by this technological

00:25:49.540 transformation.

00:25:50.900 Now,

00:25:51.440 you've been down,

00:25:52.380 I've got two questions

00:25:53.200 for you,

00:25:53.720 and I want to go

00:25:54.140 in two directions.

00:25:54.840 The first is,

00:25:56.320 regarding the question

00:25:57.860 I opened our conversation

00:25:58.860 with in relationship

00:26:00.240 to Christianity,

00:26:01.160 you're a very open person,

00:26:02.560 and your interests

00:26:03.420 flash all over,

00:26:04.720 and do you have any,

00:26:06.180 do you have any faith

00:26:07.820 in the stability

00:26:08.960 of what you've newly found,

00:26:10.820 or do you think

00:26:12.740 that there's a risk

00:26:13.660 or a possibility

00:26:14.720 of your attention,

00:26:16.980 given your open nature,

00:26:18.160 shifting to something else,

00:26:19.220 or do you feel

00:26:19.760 that you've found

00:26:20.320 a kind of bedrock

00:26:21.280 that's qualitatively different

00:26:22.580 from the sorts of orientations

00:26:24.400 that you've had previously?

00:26:25.940 Let's start with that.

00:26:26.920 It feels like something

00:26:28.160 absolute has been encountered,

00:26:30.460 which has ameliorated,

00:26:33.360 mitigated, neutralized,

00:26:35.300 and somehow compounded

00:26:37.180 and infused something

00:26:38.360 that was always latent

00:26:40.220 and yet chroming within me,

00:26:42.620 the self,

00:26:43.740 the self as the absolute.

00:26:45.780 I want this.

00:26:46.960 Right, right.

00:26:47.460 Do what thou will

00:26:48.220 shall be the whole of the world.

00:26:49.300 Right, right, right.

00:26:49.500 And the problem

00:26:49.980 with the new age,

00:26:50.940 the problem with

00:26:51.460 I'll have a little bit of Buddhism

00:26:52.560 and I'll have a little bit

00:26:53.420 of Sufism

00:26:54.060 and I'll read a bit of Foucault

00:26:55.820 and I'll conjure up

00:26:57.080 my own little pantheon,

00:26:58.160 in fact,

00:26:58.440 it was you that said it to me,

00:26:59.640 that if God is everything,

00:27:02.780 God is anything,

00:27:04.080 and I encountered that

00:27:05.160 more empirically

00:27:05.860 when returning to a kind

00:27:07.100 of new age festival

00:27:08.040 and I felt,

00:27:08.560 what is this feeling

00:27:09.680 that I'm having here,

00:27:11.000 having, you know,

00:27:11.460 since come into Christ

00:27:12.520 in a new age festival

00:27:14.360 and I don't,

00:27:15.000 you know,

00:27:15.160 I've still got the other day

00:27:16.540 it is adorned permanently

00:27:18.240 about my body

00:27:19.460 as a reminder

00:27:20.320 and what it felt like

00:27:21.540 is it's false idolatry.

00:27:24.000 A false idolatry

00:27:24.780 is predicated on a polarity

00:27:26.080 between the self

00:27:26.920 and the idol.

00:27:28.440 Christ replaces the self.

00:27:31.760 You die on the cross with him.

00:27:33.640 It's the self

00:27:34.500 that has to go.

00:27:35.360 There is no...

00:27:36.600 What self, exactly?

00:27:37.940 How do you conceptualize

00:27:38.940 the self that has to go?

00:27:40.260 The observer,

00:27:41.960 the witness,

00:27:42.600 the rustleness.

00:27:44.780 By default,

00:27:46.260 inadvertently,

00:27:47.420 I'm always in the service

00:27:49.260 of the centrifugal force

00:27:51.900 around which

00:27:53.220 urges,

00:27:55.180 projections,

00:27:56.240 reflections,

00:27:57.180 the intellect,

00:27:58.040 the memory,

00:27:59.120 they all,

00:28:00.000 like you once said

00:28:00.900 when talking about

00:28:01.580 like the word witch

00:28:02.440 might have a bunch

00:28:03.200 of associated words

00:28:04.020 like cat

00:28:04.540 and all that.

00:28:06.140 I've got Russell

00:28:06.960 and Russell's memories

00:28:07.720 and projections.

00:28:08.300 I've got this sort of

00:28:09.000 loose sense

00:28:09.680 of a continuum of self.

00:28:11.420 Now,

00:28:11.600 it was very deliberate.

00:28:12.740 That centre should be replaced.

00:28:14.660 Yes.

00:28:15.280 It's centre before he was right

00:28:16.540 and we nearly touched

00:28:17.140 upon this before

00:28:17.800 because WB8 was right.

00:28:19.220 The centre cannot hold

00:28:20.240 and that's what we're experiencing

00:28:21.280 with the emergence

00:28:22.200 of the hydra.

00:28:22.880 The sovereign is unfolding.

00:28:24.360 The seed is cracking open.

00:28:26.260 The wheat is being born.

00:28:28.200 It's being born out now.

00:28:30.280 The thing is,

00:28:30.840 is before with the narcissism,

00:28:32.380 me being a devotee

00:28:33.440 of the other culture,

00:28:34.720 a devotee of the false idolatry,

00:28:36.800 I worshipped self.

00:28:38.200 Now,

00:28:38.420 at first it felt like

00:28:39.360 a sort of the pilgrimage

00:28:40.280 was very sort of

00:28:41.740 meekly undertaken

00:28:42.740 for I was not a robust

00:28:44.380 child athlete

00:28:45.820 nor was I a high school

00:28:47.320 heartthrob.

00:28:48.260 I was a sort of a broken

00:28:49.480 and wounded little trickster

00:28:51.120 in the world.

00:28:52.060 And when I became

00:28:52.780 empowered at puberty

00:28:54.020 and attractive

00:28:55.140 and potent

00:28:55.960 and then famous

00:28:57.040 and it all was,

00:28:58.040 I felt evolving

00:28:59.160 or growing

00:28:59.640 but one of my teachers

00:29:01.140 would say inflating.

00:29:02.720 It was inflating.

00:29:05.120 Like,

00:29:05.800 I,

00:29:06.160 you know,

00:29:06.460 it's difficult

00:29:06.820 if you've felt

00:29:07.320 pretty worthless

00:29:07.920 your whole life

00:29:08.560 and all of a sudden

00:29:09.120 there's a culture

00:29:09.660 queuing up

00:29:10.140 to give you sort of

00:29:10.740 accolades

00:29:11.240 and pat you on the back

00:29:12.480 and there's a sort of

00:29:13.600 an endless cortege

00:29:15.860 of fellatio

00:29:16.740 suddenly available.

00:29:17.880 It's difficult not to think

00:29:18.700 that you might not

00:29:19.640 be rather magnificent.

00:29:21.700 Now,

00:29:21.860 the reason I like

00:29:22.460 as a sort of

00:29:23.880 a counterweight

00:29:24.540 to the feelings

00:29:25.080 of inferiority,

00:29:27.160 I would have been resist,

00:29:27.820 I always knew

00:29:28.840 something about Jesus.

00:29:30.300 I knew something

00:29:30.840 about Jesus

00:29:31.380 but my odd

00:29:32.440 contemporary translation

00:29:34.600 of that was

00:29:35.220 I want to be him.

00:29:36.700 I want to be the saviour.

00:29:38.540 I want to be

00:29:39.180 in direct commune

00:29:40.140 with God.

00:29:40.780 I want to lead.

00:29:42.100 I want to be empowered.

00:29:43.680 And then when,

00:29:44.260 when the desolation came,

00:29:46.440 the desolation

00:29:47.140 and despair,

00:29:47.720 when the grail

00:29:48.660 came again,

00:29:49.680 not like the adolescent despair

00:29:51.360 when you know

00:29:51.900 you've got a whole life

00:29:52.840 and a bunch of hormones

00:29:53.740 about to hit you

00:29:54.960 and elevate you,

00:29:56.000 middle age,

00:29:57.240 desolation and decimation,

00:29:59.080 desecration,

00:29:59.940 despair,

00:30:00.560 despondency,

00:30:01.580 when that incursion came,

00:30:03.780 when those arrows landed,

00:30:06.240 there was a clarification

00:30:07.280 took place

00:30:08.260 amidst the catastrophic

00:30:10.740 white noise

00:30:12.320 and haze

00:30:13.320 was

00:30:13.980 not just the cross

00:30:15.840 but the solitary figure,

00:30:17.480 fully man,

00:30:18.360 fully God,

00:30:19.120 to whom we must bow down.

00:30:20.780 Now,

00:30:21.140 they do all they can

00:30:22.260 in the United Kingdom

00:30:23.360 to make

00:30:25.000 a stringent

00:30:26.060 anodyne and banal

00:30:27.400 the figure of Christ,

00:30:28.900 the TV shows,

00:30:30.320 the ceremonies

00:30:31.460 and sermons themselves

00:30:32.980 with some noble exceptions.

00:30:34.180 I've had some brilliant

00:30:34.680 English Christian teachers,

00:30:36.080 J. John,

00:30:37.260 Father Dave,

00:30:38.000 although he's just

00:30:38.400 become a bishop

00:30:38.940 and he's certainly

00:30:39.740 not a Catholic minister,

00:30:41.180 Father Julian at Brompton,

00:30:42.760 loads of people

00:30:43.360 out of the UK

00:30:44.320 so I'm not being dismissive

00:30:45.200 in the widest sense,

00:30:45.980 I'm just saying

00:30:46.380 sort of culturally

00:30:47.140 the way that Christianity

00:30:47.960 is presented

00:30:49.240 is somewhat mundane

00:30:50.200 and then over in this country

00:30:51.340 in the United States

00:30:51.940 where we are now,

00:30:52.680 sometimes they can make

00:30:53.440 forgive it so much carnival

00:30:55.300 that it can seem

00:30:56.160 too sequined,

00:30:57.760 glistening and ridiculous

00:30:59.120 but somewhere within

00:30:59.960 all of us

00:31:00.680 is that he's there,

00:31:02.160 he is there

00:31:02.780 for that was his gift,

00:31:04.020 he died that we may

00:31:04.940 know eternal life

00:31:05.720 and we may be redeemed

00:31:06.600 of our sins

00:31:07.160 and he bequeathed upon us

00:31:08.140 the Holy Spirit.

00:31:08.880 Now,

00:31:09.420 what I felt was,

00:31:10.720 again,

00:31:11.060 it wasn't sort of

00:31:11.740 flashbang wallop,

00:31:12.960 the moment of the baptism

00:31:13.900 was powerful,

00:31:14.940 the moment of sort of

00:31:16.020 the slowly,

00:31:17.340 the slowly separating fugue

00:31:19.220 and as I say

00:31:19.740 the clarification

00:31:20.380 and emergence

00:31:21.120 of the face of Christ

00:31:22.140 was very real

00:31:22.680 and I knew

00:31:23.360 what the compromise was,

00:31:24.440 if there is a Jesus,

00:31:26.940 you're not Jesus,

00:31:28.540 you are not Jesus,

00:31:30.040 you are not at the centre

00:31:31.380 and neither is anybody else,

00:31:32.720 he is first born

00:31:33.540 among the dead

00:31:34.160 and the rest of us,

00:31:35.360 we're all lined up

00:31:36.640 before the throne

00:31:37.520 as sinners,

00:31:38.320 the people that have

00:31:38.880 tried to destroy me,

00:31:39.800 the people that hate me,

00:31:41.100 the people that I've wronged,

00:31:42.280 the people I've sinned against,

00:31:43.400 all of us,

00:31:44.420 just one congregation

00:31:45.580 before him,

00:31:46.340 my cherished

00:31:47.300 and prized individuality

00:31:48.920 sometimes that cast me

00:31:50.420 so low,

00:31:51.220 worthless,

00:31:51.720 disgusting,

00:31:52.480 worse than everybody else,

00:31:53.640 that sometimes self-reification

00:31:55.180 and self-deification,

00:31:56.300 I am so spectacular,

00:31:57.360 I am so marvellous,

00:31:59.140 all of it now

00:32:00.080 just sort of

00:32:00.900 eased into

00:32:02.060 I am as he made me,

00:32:04.100 I am as he would have me.

00:32:06.060 Now I don't know

00:32:06.840 that I might,

00:32:07.560 you know,

00:32:07.780 it'll be,

00:32:08.300 for someone as,

00:32:09.000 as you say,

00:32:09.640 open,

00:32:10.180 peripatetic,

00:32:11.000 intellectually

00:32:11.540 and capricious

00:32:12.340 as I have sometimes been,

00:32:13.500 perhaps it would seem

00:32:14.300 audacious to claim

00:32:15.200 that I belong to him

00:32:16.260 but I surrender to you

00:32:17.200 as my Lord and Saviour,

00:32:18.420 Jesus Christ,

00:32:19.140 I serve you.

00:32:19.720 Yeah,

00:32:19.920 well it's something

00:32:20.280 you want to do with care,

00:32:21.440 that's for sure.

00:32:22.280 So surely,

00:32:23.000 surely,

00:32:23.460 but to let you know

00:32:24.240 that the ego's still in here,

00:32:25.600 I may have given up

00:32:26.600 wanting to be Jesus Christ

00:32:27.760 but I'm going to give

00:32:28.780 as best a shot

00:32:30.280 as I can give

00:32:31.040 at being Paul.

00:32:32.740 That's,

00:32:33.220 I'll come down,

00:32:34.000 I'll come down from Jesus

00:32:35.560 but only so far.

00:32:39.180 Oh no,

00:32:39.600 sorry Lord,

00:32:40.480 sorry Lord.

00:32:42.380 Paul's just a man like us.

00:32:44.220 Paul's just a man like us.

00:32:46.120 Acts is full of men like us.

00:32:48.280 Ephesians,

00:32:48.800 written by a man like us.

00:32:49.960 Galatians,

00:32:50.460 a man like us.

00:32:51.560 And now,

00:32:52.120 amidst these tectonic shifts

00:32:54.240 and new and emerging kings

00:32:55.660 and new paradigms

00:32:56.680 and new language,

00:32:58.340 here he is,

00:32:59.120 Christ.

00:32:59.940 You know,

00:33:00.160 we even...

00:33:00.660 So okay,

00:33:00.920 so how,

00:33:01.400 okay,

00:33:01.740 so let's...

00:33:02.760 Come and have a drink please

00:33:03.540 because that was real life

00:33:04.740 as well.

00:33:05.960 I ran with it

00:33:06.740 because spontaneous,

00:33:08.240 spontaneous.

00:33:08.840 Don't stop.

00:33:09.400 Don't stop filming.

00:33:10.280 Sorry for you.

00:33:10.600 So this,

00:33:11.260 this,

00:33:12.100 I want to take apart

00:33:13.040 this idea,

00:33:14.400 two things here.

00:33:15.300 I want to take apart

00:33:16.060 this idea of the self.

00:33:18.300 Yes sir.

00:33:18.880 And like the narcissistic self,

00:33:20.820 let's say.

00:33:21.320 And then I want to contrast that

00:33:23.200 with this alternative self

00:33:24.820 that's a consequence

00:33:25.980 of the acceptance

00:33:26.940 of something like

00:33:27.740 voluntary self-sacrifice.

00:33:29.260 And I kind of want to do that

00:33:30.400 technically

00:33:30.880 because I've been trying

00:33:32.960 to work through

00:33:33.560 the relationship

00:33:34.200 between power

00:33:35.720 and hedonism.

00:33:37.380 So as far as I can tell,

00:33:38.860 there's not much point

00:33:39.840 in power

00:33:40.420 apart from the sadism

00:33:42.060 without hedonism

00:33:43.440 because power needs

00:33:44.880 to serve desire

00:33:46.040 because why else have it?

00:33:48.020 Okay,

00:33:48.240 so then the question is,

00:33:49.300 you might say,

00:33:49.800 well,

00:33:49.900 the power serves

00:33:50.820 my desires.

00:33:53.720 In America today,

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00:34:48.020 Call pound 250

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00:34:57.780 But then

00:34:58.580 there's a problem there.

00:34:59.860 Nietzsche pointed to this

00:35:00.800 by the way

00:35:01.200 back in the mid-1800s.

00:35:02.560 He said,

00:35:02.880 well,

00:35:03.100 when you say my

00:35:04.420 or when you say I,

00:35:05.740 you're assuming

00:35:07.100 some sort of

00:35:08.500 a priori unity

00:35:09.700 that's transcendent

00:35:11.160 that isn't self-evident

00:35:12.380 even though you think it is.

00:35:13.420 So you might say,

00:35:14.280 well,

00:35:14.420 I want my desires

00:35:15.800 to be requited

00:35:16.800 and that's a focus on me.

00:35:19.080 But what you're doing

00:35:20.280 is you're identifying

00:35:21.360 the I

00:35:22.480 or the me

00:35:23.200 with the desire.

00:35:24.500 And what that means

00:35:25.480 inadvertently

00:35:26.200 is that you're replacing

00:35:27.620 I or me

00:35:29.520 with the desire.

00:35:30.720 And what that means

00:35:31.500 is you're actually

00:35:32.100 possessed by the desire.

00:35:33.400 And so what narcissism

00:35:35.240 actually means,

00:35:36.160 and I think this is true

00:35:37.060 clinically,

00:35:37.980 narcissism means

00:35:39.000 subjugation

00:35:39.920 to a series

00:35:40.740 of possession

00:35:41.860 by fragmented whim.

00:35:43.980 And then people say,

00:35:45.020 well,

00:35:45.160 I'm getting what I want.

00:35:46.720 It's like there's

00:35:47.200 no I there.

00:35:48.340 You're a battlefield

00:35:49.340 of whims.

00:35:50.500 And then you might say,

00:35:51.380 well,

00:35:51.860 if your whims

00:35:52.660 are being met successfully,

00:35:54.000 why is that a problem?

00:35:55.640 And it seems to me

00:35:57.040 that the fundamental problem

00:35:58.240 is it's actually

00:35:58.980 self-defeating.

00:36:00.320 Like one of the things

00:36:01.160 we know about psychopaths,

00:36:02.580 for example,

00:36:03.240 is...

00:36:03.340 Don't touch me

00:36:03.860 when you say psychopaths.

00:36:04.880 Some people think

00:36:05.400 you think I'm one.

00:36:06.680 I'm actually very compassionate.

00:36:07.720 No,

00:36:08.000 I was thinking about

00:36:09.200 you being one of the people

00:36:10.100 who are talking

00:36:10.680 about psychopaths.

00:36:11.900 So yeah,

00:36:12.460 yeah,

00:36:12.620 that's a very important

00:36:13.460 distinction.

00:36:14.440 So psychopaths

00:36:16.900 betray themselves

00:36:17.960 as badly

00:36:18.960 as they betray

00:36:19.620 other people.

00:36:20.600 So psychopaths

00:36:21.380 are completely unable

00:36:22.280 to learn from experience,

00:36:23.660 which seems to mean

00:36:24.420 that they don't give

00:36:25.260 any consideration

00:36:26.140 whatsoever

00:36:26.540 to their future self.

00:36:28.160 So they give

00:36:28.640 no more consideration

00:36:29.560 to their future self

00:36:30.740 than they give

00:36:31.540 to other people.

00:36:32.380 And then you might say,

00:36:33.240 well,

00:36:33.380 what's the problem

00:36:34.020 with that?

00:36:34.460 And the problem is

00:36:35.220 you gratify whim

00:36:36.840 in the present

00:36:37.560 at the cost

00:36:38.660 of yourself

00:36:39.240 and others

00:36:39.760 in the future.

00:36:40.920 And that's not

00:36:41.580 a sustainable game.

00:36:43.220 So now,

00:36:44.280 I've been trying...

00:36:45.980 The postmodernists

00:36:47.300 essentially presumed

00:36:49.400 that the only uniting story

00:36:51.240 was one of power.

00:36:52.460 Yes.

00:36:52.940 Okay,

00:36:53.280 so then you might say,

00:36:54.360 well,

00:36:54.500 what's the alternative

00:36:55.380 to that conceptualization

00:36:56.840 that still allows

00:36:58.080 for the possibility

00:36:58.900 of union?

00:37:01.260 Because you could have

00:37:02.180 nihilism versus power,

00:37:03.520 for example.

00:37:04.360 Well,

00:37:04.580 I think what the biblical stories

00:37:06.460 are pointing to

00:37:07.360 is an ethos

00:37:08.820 of voluntary self-sacrifice,

00:37:10.960 right?

00:37:11.120 And that is actually

00:37:12.060 the antithesis of power.

00:37:13.420 And then you might say,

00:37:14.080 well,

00:37:14.240 that's...

00:37:15.040 There's a relationship

00:37:15.840 between accepting that

00:37:17.700 as a valid proposition

00:37:19.000 and reconfiguring

00:37:20.140 the notion of the self.

00:37:21.180 Because

00:37:21.560 when my wife,

00:37:24.380 when Tammy had Michaela,

00:37:25.760 we took our daughter

00:37:27.580 up to northern Saskatchewan

00:37:29.820 when she was about

00:37:30.800 a year old

00:37:31.340 and there's a bunch

00:37:32.060 of old people there

00:37:32.740 and they're all just

00:37:33.240 watching this baby

00:37:34.100 like mad,

00:37:34.680 like she was on fire,

00:37:35.640 you know?

00:37:35.980 They're all 65,

00:37:37.120 70, 75

00:37:38.000 and they're so thrilled

00:37:38.880 that this little creature's around

00:37:40.120 and they're watching her intently.

00:37:41.780 And Tammy said

00:37:42.720 to me

00:37:44.280 that it was such a relief

00:37:45.780 to her

00:37:46.420 not to be

00:37:48.080 the center of attention,

00:37:49.900 that something

00:37:50.560 had become more important

00:37:51.740 to her

00:37:52.020 and that calmed her down

00:37:53.300 and it gave her purpose.

00:37:54.480 And so then you might think

00:37:55.760 the true self

00:37:57.200 rather than the

00:37:58.600 hedonistic

00:37:59.460 self-defeating self,

00:38:01.040 which we axiomatically

00:38:02.260 assume as the self,

00:38:03.800 the true self

00:38:04.480 is actually found

00:38:05.480 in the consequences

00:38:07.360 of voluntary self-sacrifice

00:38:08.960 because then you get...

00:38:10.560 You sacrifice,

00:38:11.720 you get to be married.

00:38:13.100 You sacrifice,

00:38:14.180 you get to have friends.

00:38:15.460 You sacrifice,

00:38:16.280 you get to have colleagues

00:38:17.420 and people

00:38:18.120 who are voluntarily

00:38:18.960 participating in your endeavors.

00:38:20.560 You multiply your force.

00:38:21.860 And then the self

00:38:23.200 becomes like

00:38:24.580 it's the

00:38:25.560 short-term

00:38:26.860 psychopathic

00:38:28.260 and manipulative

00:38:28.920 whims

00:38:29.520 that are sacrificed

00:38:30.660 that you reflexively

00:38:32.020 identify with the self

00:38:33.260 and what's that...

00:38:34.520 What that's replaced with

00:38:35.680 is harmony

00:38:36.360 across all the levels

00:38:38.380 of being simultaneously

00:38:39.600 from individual

00:38:41.780 like couple,

00:38:43.320 family,

00:38:44.400 town,

00:38:45.280 society,

00:38:46.000 state,

00:38:46.380 and then all the way up

00:38:47.400 Jacob's ladder, right?

00:38:48.500 So...

00:38:49.120 And that's based on

00:38:50.260 the argument would be

00:38:51.580 that's inevitably

00:38:53.060 based on something

00:38:54.160 like the acceptance

00:38:54.980 of voluntary self-sacrifice

00:38:56.520 as an existential necessity

00:38:58.020 and that seems to be...

00:38:59.180 That's the pattern

00:39:00.160 of Christ's life,

00:39:01.240 clearly.

00:39:02.120 And obviously

00:39:02.860 is partnered

00:39:03.880 by the abortive

00:39:05.960 sacrifice of Isaac

00:39:07.500 in Genesis

00:39:08.860 which precedes,

00:39:10.880 preempts,

00:39:11.520 and acts as a prologue

00:39:12.720 to the ultimate sacrifice

00:39:13.780 of his past.

00:39:14.360 And I tried to take that apart

00:39:15.660 because that's a story,

00:39:17.160 for example,

00:39:17.720 that the atheists

00:39:18.480 like Dawkins point to

00:39:19.620 as indicative

00:39:20.220 of the sadism of God.

00:39:22.160 But I think

00:39:23.220 what it means

00:39:24.600 is that

00:39:25.160 of course you

00:39:26.540 offer your children

00:39:27.720 to God

00:39:28.260 because you can't

00:39:29.140 protect them

00:39:29.740 and you don't want

00:39:30.620 them to be nihilistic.

00:39:31.740 And so what you do

00:39:32.420 is you say

00:39:33.020 their service

00:39:35.140 as tools

00:39:36.140 in the hands

00:39:36.800 of the divine

00:39:37.480 takes priority

00:39:38.260 over everything.

00:39:39.100 They're not yours.

00:39:40.440 That's right.

00:39:41.280 Well, and remember

00:39:42.140 Abraham gets him back,

00:39:44.160 right?

00:39:44.480 And there's a lesson there.

00:39:45.480 It's like

00:39:45.820 if you're willing

00:39:46.540 to devote

00:39:47.960 your children

00:39:48.640 to what's highest,

00:39:50.560 they return to you.

00:39:51.460 Also, faith demands

00:39:53.420 of us

00:39:53.640 that even though

00:39:54.400 materially

00:39:55.520 and actually

00:39:56.940 you're in a moment

00:39:57.860 where there's a knife

00:39:58.700 above your child,

00:40:00.460 you are,

00:40:01.440 okay then God,

00:40:02.660 but it just doesn't look

00:40:03.380 good from where I am.

00:40:04.500 But I know

00:40:04.980 that my perspective

00:40:05.920 is just a set

00:40:07.000 of interlocutors

00:40:09.220 of fragmented desires

00:40:11.240 that transubstantiation

00:40:13.240 is being taken anyway.

00:40:15.740 You are taking the body

00:40:17.240 and the word you used

00:40:18.500 was possessed

00:40:19.560 by the false idols,

00:40:21.480 by the desires

00:40:22.180 continually.

00:40:23.460 The transubstantiation

00:40:24.580 of desire

00:40:28.720 is continually taking place.

00:40:30.200 I am occupied

00:40:31.060 by desire.

00:40:33.120 I locate myself here

00:40:34.620 in this desire.

00:40:35.400 My polarity is achieved

00:40:36.540 by my desire

00:40:37.520 and inverted commas

00:40:39.080 my

00:40:39.320 because who is the my

00:40:40.440 if the false idol

00:40:41.820 has now occupied me

00:40:43.640 if I am possessed by it.

00:40:44.360 That makes you a slave

00:40:45.340 to the desire.

00:40:46.220 I am its parasite.

00:40:47.200 So we have no choice.

00:40:47.960 The only antidote,

00:40:48.900 the only salve

00:40:49.840 is him.

00:40:50.840 He is the only salvation.

00:40:52.640 It's only by dying

00:40:53.860 on the cross with him

00:40:54.960 that I can neutralize it

00:40:56.780 because otherwise

00:40:57.300 I will be possessed again.

00:41:00.080 Now elsewhere in that

00:41:00.900 you talked about something

00:41:01.600 that I picked up

00:41:02.260 while reading that book

00:41:03.060 you gave me,

00:41:03.700 told me to read

00:41:04.240 about Profane

00:41:05.160 and the Sacred.

00:41:05.520 Oh, you read that.

00:41:06.760 Oh, great.

00:41:07.520 That's Eliana.

00:41:08.620 Yeah, yeah.

00:41:09.240 The homogeneity

00:41:10.200 that you're not even living

00:41:11.920 in a morass

00:41:12.960 of neutralized space

00:41:14.580 but arbitrarily scattered fragments

00:41:17.260 and those desires

00:41:18.800 that you just talked about

00:41:20.040 those desires

00:41:20.680 of which you become

00:41:21.960 the temporary host

00:41:23.080 you become puppeted by

00:41:24.400 and parasited by

00:41:25.740 if you don't have a

00:41:27.220 if you don't have within you

00:41:28.580 the fortitude

00:41:29.680 that as just a sort of

00:41:30.900 a set of urges

00:41:32.360 and memories

00:41:33.120 and projections

00:41:33.880 without their ideal

00:41:35.380 without the supreme ideal

00:41:36.820 as maximum power

00:41:38.420 maximum sacrifice

00:41:39.980 maximum power

00:41:41.120 maximum service

00:41:42.340 not maximum power

00:41:43.300 maximum fulfillment

00:41:44.380 of desire

00:41:45.100 that's, yeah

00:41:46.420 that is the narcissistic paradigm

00:41:48.420 Not maximum

00:41:50.940 short term

00:41:51.740 fulfillment of desire

00:41:52.820 the promise

00:41:53.520 is still something

00:41:54.640 approximating life

00:41:55.680 more abundant

00:41:56.440 right?

00:41:57.300 See, part of the reason

00:41:58.140 But only by overcoming self

00:41:59.200 Jordan

00:41:59.460 because you're no longer

00:42:00.320 the self is no longer

00:42:01.580 the totem

00:42:02.360 at the center of it

00:42:03.380 Well, it's that immediate

00:42:04.180 it's the immediate element

00:42:05.320 of it too though

00:42:05.980 Because it's atemporal though

00:42:07.220 it's atemporal

00:42:08.120 You've annihilated time

00:42:09.360 That's what it means

00:42:10.260 that's what it means

00:42:11.220 to participate in life eternal

00:42:12.900 I mean, part of the reason

00:42:13.860 that Christ is the provider

00:42:15.340 of loaves and fish

00:42:16.400 endless loaves and fishes

00:42:17.760 is because

00:42:18.380 there is no more stable

00:42:20.640 economic covenant

00:42:22.240 than one that's founded

00:42:23.500 on the principle

00:42:24.200 of voluntary self-sacrifice

00:42:25.600 So if you found your whole

00:42:26.960 see, we have a very skewed notion

00:42:29.280 in the West

00:42:30.080 of what constitutes

00:42:31.420 natural resource

00:42:32.420 because there's such a thing

00:42:34.440 as the resource curse, right?

00:42:35.880 So if you look economically

00:42:37.160 at countries that are blessed

00:42:38.780 with natural resources

00:42:40.140 they're not rich

00:42:41.420 not by and large

00:42:42.640 they're corrupt and poor

00:42:44.080 and that's because

00:42:45.240 the idea of natural resource

00:42:46.720 is wrong

00:42:47.400 The only natural resource

00:42:49.460 the only true natural resource

00:42:51.420 is the principle

00:42:53.100 that the covenant

00:42:54.780 of cooperative social productivity

00:42:57.920 is predicated on

00:42:58.900 and that's the ethos

00:43:00.580 of voluntary self-sacrifice

00:43:02.040 If you have that

00:43:03.260 everything becomes a resource

00:43:04.980 everything

00:43:05.700 that's why Christ

00:43:06.620 is the miraculous provider

00:43:07.900 of the loaves and the fishes

00:43:09.440 and the water

00:43:10.220 that never runs dry

00:43:11.740 because if you organize

00:43:12.760 your society

00:43:13.660 on the principle

00:43:14.660 of voluntary self-sacrifice

00:43:16.100 then everything

00:43:17.380 is abundant always

00:43:18.660 it's not immediate

00:43:19.840 gratification of whim

00:43:21.040 it's something much more

00:43:22.560 sustained and productive

00:43:23.920 and communal

00:43:24.600 and upward serving

00:43:26.400 And what does it tell us

00:43:28.080 Jordan

00:43:28.400 if our culture

00:43:29.300 is antithetical to that

00:43:30.800 and organized around

00:43:31.860 the exact opposite principle

00:43:33.560 that the self is the apex

00:43:35.140 that the family isn't real

00:43:36.760 that the nation isn't real

00:43:38.560 and I understand

00:43:39.380 post-structuralism in a way

00:43:40.500 and I understand

00:43:40.860 the arbitrariness

00:43:41.560 and I understand

00:43:42.000 the nature of those arguments

00:43:43.440 but in the same way

00:43:44.120 that C.S. Lewis observed

00:43:45.060 that something

00:43:45.520 that is foreclosed against

00:43:46.620 and forbidden continually

00:43:47.640 in scripture

00:43:48.620 usury

00:43:49.300 and debt-based culture

00:43:51.220 has become the

00:43:52.220 economic foundation

00:43:53.840 of the West

00:43:55.400 that something

00:43:56.180 that is scripturally forbidden

00:43:58.740 becomes essential

00:44:00.140 is an indication

00:44:01.160 that Paul

00:44:02.280 and John

00:44:03.360 and our Lord

00:44:03.860 I'm not talking about

00:44:04.400 the Beatles

00:44:04.720 I'm talking about

00:44:05.360 the New Testament

00:44:05.920 were all right

00:44:07.060 when they said

00:44:07.980 this is the dominion

00:44:09.420 of the evil one

00:44:10.460 that you fight

00:44:11.300 not against flesh and blood

00:44:12.480 and I'm interested

00:44:13.400 in what you think

00:44:14.060 about this occultist component

00:44:15.820 because you are a genius

00:44:18.620 in clinical psychology

00:44:20.520 and using that set of tools

00:44:22.520 to dissect something

00:44:23.560 which I think

00:44:24.200 is part of

00:44:24.960 the Mysterium Tremendum

00:44:26.160 and therefore

00:44:27.020 not subject

00:44:28.260 to that particular analytic

00:44:29.840 not ultimately

00:44:31.120 not ultimately

00:44:31.800 these are secondary

00:44:32.580 these are

00:44:33.200 it's a secondary discourse

00:44:34.420 if we do

00:44:35.140 if scripture is the absolute

00:44:36.400 if this is good

00:44:37.160 if this is the word of God

00:44:39.100 if this is him

00:44:39.740 then that which flows out of it

00:44:41.820 even if we do take

00:44:42.720 the branch of Jung

00:44:43.840 and afford ourselves

00:44:45.680 the ongoing mystery

00:44:47.280 we are acknowledging

00:44:49.880 the continuing

00:44:50.800 the unknowable

00:44:52.940 supernatural

00:44:53.900 preternatural

00:44:55.060 aspatial

00:44:57.080 atemporal

00:44:57.780 component of all this

00:44:58.780 so I wonder

00:45:00.540 I wonder

00:45:01.620 because I don't think

00:45:02.680 we are going to be able

00:45:03.700 to get

00:45:04.160 I feel that

00:45:05.200 what has been happening

00:45:06.340 for the last

00:45:07.220 you know

00:45:07.420 I don't know

00:45:07.740 if it was 20 years

00:45:08.420 I don't know

00:45:08.700 if it was the last 50 years

00:45:09.720 I don't know

00:45:10.300 if it's beyond time

00:45:11.120 but certainly

00:45:11.640 it seemed to me

00:45:12.100 it was a result

00:45:12.540 of materialism

00:45:13.260 rationalism

00:45:13.880 and individualism

00:45:14.700 and the national

00:45:15.240 conclusion

00:45:15.840 natural conclusion

00:45:16.980 that flows forth

00:45:18.020 from materialism

00:45:19.160 is that all is real

00:45:20.420 is the self

00:45:20.980 and what you just

00:45:22.080 described there

00:45:22.920 that you may as well

00:45:24.180 just have a mosaic

00:45:25.200 of desires

00:45:26.480 lining up chronologically

00:45:28.400 through life

00:45:29.020 Jung prophesied that

00:45:29.900 at the end of World War II

00:45:30.980 he said that the logical

00:45:32.480 conclusion of Protestantism

00:45:33.920 would be that everybody

00:45:34.780 was their own church

00:45:35.840 right

00:45:37.220 because there's no end

00:45:38.580 to the fragmentation

00:45:39.540 right

00:45:39.960 and that's associated

00:45:41.720 with let's say

00:45:42.700 the worship of a diversity

00:45:43.960 for its own sake

00:45:45.040 but the problem

00:45:46.160 with that is

00:45:47.000 fragmentation

00:45:47.840 and entropy

00:45:48.400 and also the narcissism

00:45:49.860 that goes along

00:45:50.520 with every single person

00:45:51.560 being the center

00:45:52.580 of the world

00:45:53.240 and you know

00:45:54.900 the complex

00:45:56.160 one of the complex

00:45:57.260 problems that's

00:45:57.960 associated with that

00:45:58.900 is exactly the question

00:46:00.280 of well if it's not

00:46:02.300 you that's the center

00:46:03.860 once you understand

00:46:05.200 that the you

00:46:06.020 that you presume

00:46:06.840 is actually an aggregation

00:46:08.400 of immature whims

00:46:09.460 in its default form

00:46:10.780 then what is the you

00:46:12.440 that should be paramount

00:46:13.860 now Jung knew this

00:46:14.820 this is why he

00:46:15.720 regarded Christ

00:46:17.020 as a symbol

00:46:17.740 of the self

00:46:18.440 right

00:46:18.700 he believed that the

00:46:19.900 he believed that

00:46:21.420 the central unity

00:46:22.500 of spirit

00:46:23.800 that would

00:46:24.460 in some ways

00:46:25.420 naturally emerge

00:46:26.560 as these

00:46:27.680 underlying complexes

00:46:29.500 or motivational states

00:46:30.620 aggregated

00:46:31.300 would take on

00:46:32.640 the appearance

00:46:33.940 of

00:46:34.460 the self-sacrificial passion

00:46:37.260 and it has to be

00:46:38.640 that way

00:46:39.100 like I

00:46:39.600 this is

00:46:40.200 I believe

00:46:40.940 because

00:46:41.320 if you're going

00:46:42.840 to orient yourself

00:46:43.600 towards the future

00:46:44.340 you have to sacrifice

00:46:45.140 the present

00:46:45.700 like obviously

00:46:47.120 and if you're going

00:46:48.400 to orient yourself

00:46:49.620 towards other people

00:46:50.980 in a communal relationship

00:46:52.280 you have to sacrifice

00:46:53.700 the immediate demand

00:46:54.800 for the gratification

00:46:55.620 of your whims

00:46:56.200 that's what kids learn

00:46:57.580 between

00:46:58.000 two and four

00:46:59.320 like they learned

00:47:00.160 for example

00:47:00.920 when they learn

00:47:01.460 to take turns

00:47:02.260 which is like a predicate

00:47:03.300 for having friends

00:47:04.280 right

00:47:04.560 because sometimes

00:47:05.160 it's you

00:47:05.740 and sometimes

00:47:06.520 it's me

00:47:07.180 otherwise we're not

00:47:08.140 going to get along

00:47:08.740 that's obviously

00:47:10.160 sacrificial

00:47:10.980 because to do that

00:47:12.320 you have to sacrifice

00:47:13.260 you

00:47:13.900 taking the first turn

00:47:15.860 every time

00:47:16.600 and so I don't see

00:47:17.820 any way out of the argument

00:47:18.960 that

00:47:19.360 a future

00:47:20.400 mature future orientation

00:47:22.380 is sacrificial

00:47:23.400 and

00:47:24.180 mature future oriented

00:47:26.320 communal orientation

00:47:27.660 is self-sacrificial

00:47:28.680 and then you'd say

00:47:29.680 well what's the pattern

00:47:30.720 of that

00:47:31.320 and Christ's insistence

00:47:32.960 right

00:47:33.200 is that

00:47:33.580 he embodied

00:47:35.020 the pattern

00:47:36.120 of the prophets

00:47:36.820 and the law

00:47:37.480 that was

00:47:37.980 already extant

00:47:39.280 in the Old Testament

00:47:40.040 and embodied it

00:47:41.000 and that embodiment

00:47:42.120 is the ultimate

00:47:43.700 demonstration

00:47:44.460 of voluntary

00:47:45.280 self-sacrifice

00:47:46.080 I can't argue

00:47:47.180 my way out of that

00:47:48.080 it just seems like

00:47:49.000 that just seems

00:47:49.760 I can't see an alternative

00:47:51.240 to that

00:47:51.660 it's interesting

00:47:52.160 when we pursue it rationally

00:47:53.720 of course it makes sense

00:47:55.060 because

00:47:55.820 elsewise

00:47:57.380 in some ways

00:47:58.440 what would be the point

00:47:59.780 that like I can

00:48:01.000 empirically say

00:48:02.740 that having tried

00:48:04.080 to live a life

00:48:05.260 at times

00:48:06.100 that was

00:48:06.940 that was motivated

00:48:10.060 by self-service

00:48:12.400 like well

00:48:13.160 why not take loads

00:48:15.160 of drugs

00:48:15.520 oh yeah

00:48:16.040 that's what happens

00:48:16.740 well why not

00:48:17.740 just have sex

00:48:18.500 with everyone

00:48:19.020 who's around you

00:48:20.100 who wants to have

00:48:20.680 sex with you

00:48:21.220 why not do that

00:48:21.980 oh right

00:48:22.460 oh I see

00:48:23.000 that's what happens

00:48:24.120 so in a sense

00:48:25.240 those prohibitions

00:48:27.280 those edicts

00:48:29.560 those sanctions

00:48:31.420 were in a sense

00:48:33.040 compassionate

00:48:33.940 at the point

00:48:34.800 of origin

00:48:35.760 but the mistake

00:48:36.780 what do you mean

00:48:37.820 I don't follow that

00:48:38.900 exactly

00:48:39.320 you can do

00:48:40.440 what you want

00:48:41.140 but if you do do it

00:48:42.240 you'll be unhappy

00:48:43.540 rather than it being

00:48:44.660 I'm going to kill you

00:48:45.980 if you have sex

00:48:47.460 with loads and loads

00:48:48.180 of women

00:48:48.640 go have sex

00:48:49.780 with loads and loads

00:48:50.440 of women

00:48:50.860 and find out

00:48:51.740 for yourself

00:48:52.300 told you

00:48:53.720 yeah right

00:48:54.800 told you

00:48:55.620 that that won't

00:48:56.340 work for you

00:48:56.840 well that is

00:48:57.760 what you do

00:48:58.260 to some degree

00:48:59.000 if you're a reasonable

00:49:00.000 parent of adolescence

00:49:01.420 for example

00:49:02.020 yes

00:49:02.620 one of the things

00:49:03.460 you do is

00:49:04.180 is say

00:49:04.880 go make some mistakes

00:49:06.500 and find out

00:49:07.100 for yourself

00:49:07.740 it is required

00:49:08.520 that's

00:49:09.020 I suppose

00:49:09.720 that's the

00:49:10.360 well you would

00:49:11.120 associate that

00:49:11.940 theologically

00:49:12.560 with the granting

00:49:13.300 of free will

00:49:14.000 like right

00:49:14.640 why not make

00:49:15.400 everyone just

00:49:16.140 into a slave

00:49:16.960 of divine command

00:49:17.980 yes exactly

00:49:18.620 but what we have

00:49:19.520 to do is

00:49:19.860 actually Jordan

00:49:20.800 is not pursue it

00:49:21.860 I don't

00:49:22.280 I believe

00:49:22.820 not entirely

00:49:23.900 down the lines

00:49:25.440 of rationalism

00:49:26.680 i.e. if you sacrifice

00:49:28.080 this now

00:49:28.860 things will be better

00:49:29.720 in the future

00:49:30.320 if you are cooperative

00:49:31.700 with your peers

00:49:32.860 because in a sense

00:49:33.540 that's no different

00:49:34.460 than the kind of

00:49:35.020 evolutionary biology

00:49:36.120 that comes out of

00:49:36.820 Pinker

00:49:37.200 and your man

00:49:39.140 Dawkins

00:49:39.700 and all of the atheists

00:49:40.800 oh we can rationally

00:49:41.500 even love

00:49:42.140 we can describe love

00:49:43.160 no

00:49:43.840 there is something

00:49:45.120 that is beyond reason

00:49:46.540 there is something

00:49:47.520 that is beyond our

00:49:48.380 understanding

00:49:49.040 beyond our ken

00:49:50.340 now first we must

00:49:51.480 enter into

00:49:52.240 an alternative state

00:49:53.540 that state is belief

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00:51:09.120 pretty clever so to

00:51:13.840 sort of like go all

00:51:15.220 right so God came

00:51:16.460 to earth in human

00:51:17.680 form lived a life as

00:51:19.260 a normal person with

00:51:20.420 genitals and fingernails

00:51:22.100 and farts and picked

00:51:23.400 stuff out his teeth

00:51:24.180 then he died because

00:51:25.780 somehow there had to

00:51:27.080 be absolution for

00:51:28.460 sin somehow some I

00:51:30.460 can't even want to

00:51:31.100 try to put it in

00:51:31.540 rational language some

00:51:32.420 frequency had to be

00:51:34.020 or good some template

00:51:35.420 some portal some

00:51:36.800 opening some new

00:51:38.720 milieu something had

00:51:40.540 to be done a

00:51:41.260 transition had to be

00:51:42.080 achieved I can't

00:51:43.180 rationally unpack it

00:51:44.200 but when through

00:51:45.380 despair that set of

00:51:47.460 that that a stout

00:51:49.340 that mosaic of

00:51:50.720 traits and

00:51:51.680 recollections that I

00:51:53.060 and urges that I

00:51:54.340 call self when it

00:51:55.340 is annihilated and

00:51:57.700 when it implodes

00:51:58.880 there when that

00:52:00.500 becomes inutil who

00:52:02.560 is there amidst the

00:52:04.240 archetypal

00:52:05.240 morass and miasma

00:52:07.420 is there some form

00:52:08.640 some figure now if

00:52:10.060 I believe in him if

00:52:11.480 I go Jesus Christ you

00:52:12.720 are my king and my

00:52:13.760 lord and my saviour

00:52:14.780 something happens so

00:52:16.660 I believe we have to

00:52:18.620 go beyond like even

00:52:20.360 though I have

00:52:21.320 personally experienced

00:52:22.320 if all you do is

00:52:23.900 narcissistically pursue

00:52:25.700 pleasure and power

00:52:27.980 and the privileges of

00:52:29.920 the false cathedral of

00:52:31.560 the evil one that we

00:52:32.880 now have normalized

00:52:34.080 and regards to be

00:52:35.820 ordinary life fame

00:52:37.480 celebrity materialism

00:52:38.600 rationalism commodification

00:52:40.320 commerce all of that

00:52:41.600 when I'm broken out of

00:52:43.660 it by an almighty

00:52:44.980 slap from the

00:52:46.080 heavenly father I

00:52:47.520 don't re-enter into

00:52:48.520 it with the kind of

00:52:49.740 idea that oh this will

00:52:50.740 be good for me and

00:52:51.700 this will pay dividends

00:52:52.740 one day it's like I

00:52:54.380 I am I live only in

00:52:56.880 you I allow me to

00:52:59.100 become a living

00:52:59.720 sacrifice continually

00:53:01.140 renew my mind live in

00:53:02.520 me my heavenly father

00:53:03.580 now I will change and

00:53:05.080 I'll become absolutely

00:53:05.980 what he wants me to

00:53:07.080 become but it isn't in

00:53:09.160 order that I because if

00:53:10.740 it is absolutely in the

00:53:11.660 moment it is right so

00:53:13.680 you're saying that it

00:53:14.520 can't just be grounded in

00:53:15.780 a more enlightened form of

00:53:17.160 self of what would say

00:53:18.480 self-service yeah okay so

00:53:20.000 okay so it's not a

00:53:21.640 technique yep got it got

00:53:23.160 it got it so well some of

00:53:24.580 the things that were

00:53:25.360 occurring to me when you

00:53:27.320 said that so there's a

00:53:30.100 dream that Tolstoy had

00:53:32.520 it and recounted at the

00:53:33.960 end of his confession he

00:53:34.980 was in a kind of

00:53:35.900 suicidal despair and he

00:53:37.580 had a dream that he was

00:53:38.600 suspended on a bed and he

00:53:41.560 was looking down like

00:53:42.560 what in immensely high

00:53:44.900 above the earth and he

00:53:45.800 was looking down into

00:53:46.620 this abyss that he could

00:53:47.880 fall into and he and

00:53:50.160 then he looked up and he

00:53:51.040 could see a rope that

00:53:52.160 connected him to heaven but

00:53:53.500 he couldn't see what it

00:53:54.360 was attached to but he

00:53:55.660 understood that that rope

00:53:57.160 that disappeared into the

00:53:58.780 ineffable was what was

00:53:59.940 protecting him from like

00:54:01.660 eternally so to speak from

00:54:03.040 plunging into the abyss and

00:54:04.800 one of the things you're

00:54:05.700 making reference to is the

00:54:07.040 fact that because you're

00:54:08.700 finite let's say and not

00:54:10.020 omniscient that your

00:54:11.760 conceptualizations are always

00:54:14.500 going to ground themselves

00:54:15.760 out in something that is

00:54:16.820 truly ineffable now the same

00:54:18.400 problem obtains in science

00:54:19.780 right because if you pursue

00:54:21.680 the if you pursue your

00:54:24.560 investigations into the

00:54:25.820 micro world you ground out

00:54:27.120 in the quantum world which

00:54:28.320 no one understands and then

00:54:29.560 if you pursue your your

00:54:31.980 investigation temporally and

00:54:34.160 you encounter the big bang

00:54:35.420 you're stuck with a miracle

00:54:36.380 at the beginning of time

00:54:37.420 and I think part of the part

00:54:39.380 of it is and you made some

00:54:41.120 reference to this is like if

00:54:42.780 you're finite and bounded in

00:54:44.460 your intelligence and the

00:54:45.420 apprehension there's a cloud of

00:54:47.520 like mystery that surrounds

00:54:48.780 that that's like that's

00:54:49.900 dreamlike and then there's

00:54:51.440 something that's akin to the

00:54:52.740 miraculous around that and

00:54:54.480 that's the buffer between the

00:54:55.920 finite and the infinite and I

00:54:57.580 think you're making reference

00:54:58.620 to that when you talk about

00:55:00.320 the danger of reducing

00:55:01.880 religious faith to the

00:55:03.660 rational even if you're

00:55:05.020 assuming future orientation and

00:55:07.840 communal orientation as a

00:55:09.180 better rational orientation than

00:55:10.720 present than a present whim

00:55:12.480 gratification and I think

00:55:14.280 that's I think that's right I

00:55:16.280 mean that's that's partly I

00:55:17.960 think why orthodox

00:55:19.880 christianity is exerting a

00:55:22.120 fairly powerful attraction on

00:55:24.080 people at the moment because

00:55:25.260 it's quite good at using

00:55:26.900 architecture and ritual and

00:55:29.360 and sound to fill the gap

00:55:32.380 between the rational and the

00:55:33.600 irrational right and it's not

00:55:35.180 argumentation any more than

00:55:36.520 ballet is argumentation or

00:55:38.180 fine art is argumentation it's

00:55:39.960 it's more like it's a

00:55:41.640 phenomena that that means to

00:55:43.560 shine forth right it's a

00:55:44.620 phenomena that indicates that

00:55:45.980 there's something beyond what you

00:55:47.460 normally apprehend that's there

00:55:49.460 and that a relationship with

00:55:50.880 that is necessary and I do

00:55:52.660 think that's now you you

00:55:55.040 associated that discovery in

00:55:56.880 you with despair so like can

00:56:00.980 you fill in the gaps between the

00:56:03.320 despair and the discovery of

00:56:05.160 that what would you say it's

00:56:07.380 partly humility it's partly

00:56:09.000 apprehension of the necessity of

00:56:10.700 accepting things that are beyond

00:56:12.040 your rational reductionism you

00:56:17.200 described how on the observable

00:56:18.560 plane the smallest material

00:56:20.660 components of reality and the

00:56:23.160 largest expanse conceivable of

00:56:25.320 time the origin of time as we

00:56:28.480 might understand it are

00:56:30.780 enshrined in an unknowable

00:56:33.700 ineffable mystery perhaps in our

00:56:37.900 own fractal reality in the

00:56:39.720 little put my little personal

00:56:41.380 cosmos with its own hierophanies

00:56:44.020 I see I did read that book yeah

00:56:45.780 yeah yeah I have encountered in

00:56:48.560 various ways those edge lands now

00:56:52.120 any genius whether it's in a

00:56:54.420 scientific discipline a sport or

00:56:57.460 arts are trying to find that edge

00:57:00.220 and in so doing occasionally in

00:57:02.900 their renderings will come up with

00:57:04.380 some concert landscape portrait or

00:57:07.720 rhyme that is indicative of the

00:57:10.360 perfection that underlies observable

00:57:13.640 reality that there is an absolute

00:57:15.720 now me while the in relationship if

00:57:22.180 the sort of culture is telling you you

00:57:24.580 know become don't be in this

00:57:26.740 ordinary world of grey's Essex with

00:57:29.720 its sort of endless tedium and its sort

00:57:33.280 of trash glamour and its post

00:57:36.420 proletariat denim bleed into nothing

00:57:40.480 aspire you to the upper echelons to

00:57:44.760 the great Vatican now in flames there

00:57:48.400 you will find salvation but we know

00:57:51.940 what prophets and what idols speak from

00:57:56.040 those hills now incandescent and when

00:58:02.740 you get there and if you have

00:58:03.640 experience all that stuff if you sort

00:58:04.900 of sleep around like most people

00:58:06.040 probably Jordan that sort of like live

00:58:07.740 a lot I don't know about most people

00:58:08.980 some people may be like they're like

00:58:10.520 you know I live a pretty chaste life

00:58:12.120 but you know as we have discussed and

00:58:13.760 before and as you've touched upon in

00:58:15.580 new on innumerable occasions well have

00:58:18.260 you ever been offered did you receive an

00:58:20.080 offer to the banquet do you know what

00:58:21.420 it's like have you been presented with

00:58:23.760 any temptation to resist have you known

00:58:25.940 that temptation and like and when you

00:58:28.000 are and it sort of it's not it is the

00:58:30.660 false defibrillation of his kingdom you

00:58:33.120 can't achieve something there in the

00:58:35.200 false light in the false light of the

00:58:37.180 enlightenment that built out that new

00:58:40.000 template where man sits at the apex

00:58:42.520 lucifer himself lucifer himself if the

00:58:45.540 the original sin of disobedience is

00:58:48.120 knowledge apart from him or them

00:58:50.480 depending on how you see it lucifer is

00:58:53.080 cast out and falls from heaven like

00:58:55.340 lightning precisely because he sees

00:58:57.460 himself as a competitor opponent and

00:59:00.880 alternative to the divine now I believe

00:59:04.540 that is the archetype of selfishness that

00:59:08.340 is the that's where that's its germ and

00:59:10.740 germination selfishness it's selfishness

00:59:13.440 replete with the most sophisticated of

00:59:15.760 all possible rationalizations so it's the

00:59:19.000 it's the what would you say supreme

00:59:20.980 intellect as handmaiden of the passions

00:59:23.520 right right right right yes yes so it's

00:59:26.320 it's it's it's that grip of

00:59:27.920 instantaneous motivation allied with this

00:59:31.240 is foucault to a to a t as far as I'm

00:59:33.700 concerned he put his entire intellect at

00:59:35.760 the service of his of his warped passion

00:59:39.420 diabolical diabolical and he's very

00:59:41.700 good at it like he's very smart he's very

00:59:43.560 smart great sophistry yeah Marx did the

00:59:46.260 same thing Marx did the same thing why

00:59:48.320 why not but like you know it's the reason

00:59:50.580 that I spoke about that um the despair as

00:59:52.940 being the rupture um as being the point of

00:59:57.980 epiphany is because I suppose I've been

01:00:00.780 taken to the very edge of it you know my

01:00:03.380 in person I'm not claiming this is

01:00:04.860 objective or absolute I'm claiming the

01:00:06.660 precisely the opposite it's entirely

01:00:08.800 subjective of course but I went as far as

01:00:11.140 I could go not only with the hedonism the

01:00:12.760 epicureanism but also with the oh look

01:00:14.920 you've got a family now and a dog and a

01:00:16.680 thatched cottage and you live by the river

01:00:18.040 and it's also I've sort of tried all of

01:00:20.480 it and then somehow lurking in the past

01:00:23.440 those two serpents that I had adored my

01:00:25.760 own personal Baal and Moloch fame and

01:00:29.060 sex turned when I was trying to live even

01:00:31.740 in the within the purview of the culture a

01:00:34.820 somewhat truthful and honest life hey this

01:00:37.180 pandemic don't seem right they're not

01:00:38.780 telling us the truth about the origins of

01:00:40.360 this well I don't think you can trust

01:00:41.400 these people what's the relationship

01:00:42.420 between the media and these

01:00:43.400 organizations and you can't try and

01:00:45.600 and liberalism itself is a kind of godless

01:00:47.540 ideology this was when those two serpents

01:00:50.720 turned now I already felt that I was kind

01:00:55.140 of an awoken and awakened person I kind of

01:00:58.940 felt like I was kind of clever but not long

01:01:02.460 but held a festival where rather brilliant

01:01:05.980 people like Vandana Shiva and Wim Hof and

01:01:09.560 Kali Means you know brilliant people had

01:01:11.800 come turned up and I had marched about the

01:01:14.480 grounds holding a staff chant in Ragnarok

01:01:18.300 with a bunch of pagans down there by some

01:01:21.000 river the river in fact that serves as a

01:01:23.400 border between Wales the Celtic wilds and

01:01:26.060 England the stable center and not long

01:01:29.140 after that everything fell apart and I was

01:01:30.720 exposed to so much sin and sin I think

01:01:34.160 here's a good near acronym in in self the

01:01:38.300 sense for self self the sibilant serpent

01:01:41.560 self in self now because my background is in

01:01:44.340 addiction and chemical dependency but and

01:01:46.220 behavioral dependency I can see that what

01:01:48.700 you do is as well as that sort of mosaic that

01:01:50.980 we keep referencing to of of a kind of a black

01:01:53.980 mass of transubstantiation placing desire where the

01:01:57.480 center should be no wonder it cannot hold that

01:02:00.160 whilst as a kind of a cardinal or of that dark

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01:02:31.560 pillows ship while considering myself to be

01:02:34.600 awakened of course because you know you have to

01:02:36.400 normalize these things you have to deify that no one's

01:02:38.720 going around macabrely claiming I am evil everyone

01:02:43.460 thinks they're doing the right thing it's either banal

01:02:45.820 it's either the banality of evil or the celebration of the

01:02:48.920 evil of evil or the invisibility of evil because it's so

01:02:51.780 immersive and absolute and so far-reaching so with the

01:02:55.360 my identity fell apart my identity fell apart peculiarly at

01:02:59.800 the exact same because it's like Russell you know Russell

01:03:01.940 Brand is not a famous womanizer Russell Brand is a famous

01:03:04.960 rapist that's what Russell what what look at him standing on

01:03:10.020 stage making these jokes what what are you talking about what

01:03:13.620 are you talking about being able to direct people's will is

01:03:17.840 not the same as overcoming their will or ignoring their will or

01:03:21.840 coercing them is precisely the opposite having the ability to

01:03:25.980 direct people's will or charm or seduce or enchant these are all

01:03:31.760 sort of shamanic magical kind of qualities that yes I now see

01:03:36.500 where they lead thank you for the lesson Lord I now see where

01:03:40.400 they lead and I also now know absolutely and look at what's

01:03:43.040 happening in my country right now falling apart with a kind of an

01:03:46.860 extraordinary extraordinary subterranean potentially barbarian

01:03:51.520 culture of gang rape like I mean what what's going on this

01:03:55.100 bit is I was like Old Testament stuff so my despair came when the what I

01:04:00.840 had built what I had made for myself my false idol not you know like over

01:04:04.980 my life I've carved this thing this image of Russell and look at it it can

01:04:09.380 be destroyed it can be destroyed well they're in a half hour one of the

01:04:12.220 strange things I think about your situation is that you know you were God

01:04:17.920 maybe this is probably right is that you were just like Richard Dawkins is the

01:04:23.180 exemplar of the atheistic enlightenment you're kind of the success story of the

01:04:27.940 hedonistic liberal right I mean you got like assuming that would work what you

01:04:33.300 got was it working okay so then the question is well if you get what you asked

01:04:38.020 for like if it's magically granted to you as it was in your case what's the

01:04:42.140 consequence of that and you're outlining the consequence so you said well there

01:04:45.440 were practical consequences which that it inverted on you but I'm also

01:04:50.040 interested in the psychological consequences you know because it the

01:04:53.840 question well why not take pleasure enhancing drugs like cocaine why not sleep

01:05:00.040 with everyone who presents themselves as an opportunity like that's an actual

01:05:03.480 question this is a good question generally the reason is well generally the reason

01:05:07.420 is well you can't right you just don't have the opportunity but then let's assume

01:05:12.020 that well you can well that I did it okay okay and then but why can you be more

01:05:17.580 specific about why that didn't work psychologically I can but it's in the

01:05:22.400 despair holds the key because I believe that was the communion and the

01:05:26.940 communication that simultaneous with that like while you know people were you

01:05:31.920 know like friends and enemies were calling me and are you among the friends

01:05:36.300 like you know let's say like God are you okay this is crazy what was also

01:05:40.200 happening is we were taking our son to who was 12 weeks old to have his body

01:05:45.440 carved almost in half his heart taken out of his body like that that was

01:05:51.100 happening at the same time so it was like well for all of the sturm and drang and

01:05:56.880 the meteorological operatics of this conjured and concocted storm which no doubt I provided

01:06:05.000 the raw material for by being the poster boy of liberal hedonism it's sort of the Lord showed

01:06:11.380 me this is meaningless this is meaningless and I'll show you it's meaningless look look

01:06:18.140 what's actually happening right now look at your son look at the rain falling on his gentle

01:06:23.900 face as you push the pram to great ormond street look at his tiny smile look at the breast milk

01:06:30.660 coming through his mother's t-shirt because she can't feed him because he has surgery in a few

01:06:36.660 hours so you tell me what's real what did it do for you where did it get you what does it mean

01:06:43.480 and there he is Jesus Christ and there he isn't Russell Brand what did what good did he do you for all of

01:06:51.580 your worship for all of your effort for all of the poetry the prose the posturing the preening

01:06:57.700 and primping where did it lead you nothingness welcome to the annihilation what you learn in crisis

01:07:04.820 is true anyway it's true anyway but you just ignored it with all of the ornamentation and pageantry

01:07:12.100 you are able to distract yourself from it so marvelously so psychologically what happens is

01:07:19.700 a massive rupture and you realize also by the way because in your own great ormond street when the

01:07:24.200 most important thing in your life is happening to you that your son is undergoing surgery and he might

01:07:27.680 not survive the surgery so is everyone else's kid so is everyone else's kid who do you think you are

01:07:36.100 because when when it came in the when it came in the scan you know at 26 weeks prior to his birth you

01:07:42.740 know I was like I'm not having that Laura I'm not having that I'm not having some kid with tubes up

01:07:47.980 his nose and wires I'm not going to great ormond street but when you get to great ormond street

01:07:52.600 through surrender who are you saying oh my god something says something says who are you to not go to

01:08:00.000 great ormond street who are you who do you think you are you're not who you think you are you're not

01:08:06.080 who you thought you were and the trials and the tests are not punishments but lessons as he strips

01:08:12.000 it all away and he takes it away from you and he shows you who you are really and what you are here

01:08:17.160 to do really so what it's like psychologically what it's like psychologically to experience heavenism is

01:08:25.000 it's a slow burn of knowing that he was always there when you're watching tv as a kid and christianity

01:08:30.940 is tedious when you're singing the wise man built his house upon the the wise man built his house

01:08:36.400 upon the rock I've missed the fundamental lesson the literal foundational lesson of that that he's there

01:08:41.060 all the time when you're there in sort of five star hotel rooms and they're asleep on the bed now and

01:08:46.300 you're looking out the window pondering and lonely and empty the sort of hollowness of it

01:08:52.440 it's there or he's there all the time the threads are always there in every moment in every moment

01:08:58.340 because in the end like it says in your man uh um Eliard there look it's not even just a homogenous

01:09:06.020 without the say if you live entirely in the profane you will sanctify profanity and the culture will

01:09:11.400 sanctify profanity and a priest class will emerge in order to sanctify the profane and to set up false

01:09:17.340 idols but it's not even just a homogenous endless space it's worse than that it's endless chaotic

01:09:23.500 fragmentation with order imposed on top of it it's diabolical and dark and berserk it's havoc and hell

01:09:30.820 and in the end that hell will show itself not only to you as an individual well that's the pharaoh and

01:09:35.020 the slaves and the consequence of that is the plagues like yes absolutely that's what happens the more

01:09:42.040 dissolute the society the more the unconscious longing for top-down what imposition of structure

01:09:49.500 the more the top-down stubborn imposition of structure the more likely that that response

01:09:54.520 to crisis will be pathologized and that the plagues will emerge let's like yeah maybe that's where them

01:09:59.280 post-structuralists and uh you're Foucault and whatnot are right because in that the presupposition is

01:10:05.180 that it's not free will and self-sacrifice it's the imposition of order under the continual threat of

01:10:10.960 violence that creates society yeah but what they yeah but look absolutely there's no doubt that power

01:10:17.920 is a unifying force i mean that's why in in the lord of the rings it's the ring of power that unites

01:10:22.800 all the rings if you're not united let's say by responsibility and by voluntary self-sacrifice

01:10:28.680 you will be united by power right that's the rule and and that's why you know in even the israel

01:10:35.500 the israelites who are slaves under pharaoh like they're part of a dynamic sure the pharaohs are

01:10:41.740 tyrant but they're slaves and they're calling out for the tyrant and so if you if you call out for

01:10:48.440 the tyrant power will emerge as the uniting force and then you might say well why not and the answer

01:10:52.740 is well it's self-defeating it's not it's too rigid to be adaptive and it's fundamentally self-defeating

01:10:58.900 and so that's why not i mean there's more to it as you pointed out because there's the fact that

01:11:03.820 the imposition of the king is a violation of the principle of the divine right because if you're

01:11:10.480 following the divine you don't bloody well need a king which is what god tells the israelites over

01:11:14.760 and over when they're clamoring for a king but yeah yeah all right russell i think we're going to stop

01:11:20.580 on this side i think what we're going to do on the daily wire side is talk about you've been down in

01:11:26.160 florida and you've been having some association with the mega and the maha type strangely enough

01:11:30.980 and so i'd like to delve into that a little bit and tell me what you've seen what your hopes are and

01:11:36.280 what you're concerned about because you know you're you're a strange character in this too because

01:11:41.100 well you come at it from the left and from the liberal side and now you're watching these people

01:11:46.580 who are part of this more conservative movement kind of conservative libertarian movement and i'd be

01:11:52.740 very curious to hear you know what you've concluded as a consequence of your observations okay so

01:11:57.840 obviously you've been made welcome which is extremely interesting and bizarre so yes it's so

01:12:03.440 preposterous it's all so preposterous so let's do that on the daily wire side anyways thank you all for

01:12:08.620 your time and attention thanks russell it's always a pleasure talking to you thank you

01:12:22.740 you

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - February 24, 2025

524. Why Russell Brand Abandoned Hedonism

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