The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 530. Failure or Success in the Time of Trump ｜ Jim Balsillie

00:00:00.160 President Trump has proclaimed that my country should become the 51st state.

00:00:04.720 We have brilliant innovators. We have brilliant researchers.

00:00:08.020 We come up with earth-changing ideas.

00:00:11.020 What did we do wrong? What did we misunderstand?

00:00:13.880 And what did we fail to apply moving forward?

00:00:16.680 So the number three AI research center in the world is in Edmonton.

00:00:20.460 Number five is in Toronto.

00:00:22.320 We gave essentially all that away to other U.S. tech companies.

00:00:25.800 I think Trump has made a strategic mistake because America's got an unbelievable deal from Canada.

00:00:32.320 You know, we actually have the opportunity to make this country roar if we choose wisely.

00:00:37.440 What do you think needs to be done?

00:00:39.220 Hello, everybody.

00:00:55.840 This is a podcast that you might think of as primarily for Canadians,

00:00:59.600 but it's really for anybody who's trying to understand the world where Trump looms large.

00:01:09.220 It's been a particularity of the last 10 years that Canadian politics has become interesting internationally,

00:01:16.900 not least because the things that are happening everywhere in the West affect everywhere else in the West.

00:01:24.580 And so this is a good case in point.

00:01:27.520 Now, Canada is in a particularly strange position at the moment because President Trump has,

00:01:34.120 first of all, proclaimed that my country should become the 51st state

00:01:38.140 and also lambasted us with some very heavy-duty economic measures in the form of tariffs.

00:01:44.940 And this has really put the cat among the canaries in Canada.

00:01:48.620 And so the timing of this interview with my guest today could hardly be better.

00:01:55.060 I'm speaking with Jim Balsley.

00:01:57.380 And Jim was co-CEO of Research in Motion, the inventors of the BlackBerry.

00:02:03.880 And so Jim is responsible, for better or worse, for transitioning, that terrible word,

00:02:12.040 the entire world into the smartphone age.

00:02:15.760 And he was spectacularly successful as a businessman and an innovator and a Canadian businessman and innovator.

00:02:24.920 But I've known Jim for 15 years and he resigned from BlackBerry a good while ago.

00:02:30.620 And he's been equally successful as an entrepreneur and innovator since then.

00:02:36.420 So it wasn't a one-shot wonder, large as that wonder was.

00:02:40.100 Jim is one of the most reliable and good-natured and yet incisive and critically-minded thinkers that I've met.

00:02:50.760 Very well-connected, very competent, a very good man, all things considered.

00:02:57.960 And I'm not saying that lightly, given the importance of this discussion.

00:03:01.260 I wanted to find someone I could bring to Canadians to discuss the perilous situation that we find ourselves in.

00:03:08.320 And so we started the conversation, really, with an analysis of Canada's economic performance,

00:03:14.880 which, to put it mildly, over the last 30 years, has not been good.

00:03:19.540 We rank at the bottom of the pack with regards to the developed nations.

00:03:23.560 And we're now making 60 cents for every dollar that the Americans make in terms of our production.

00:03:29.620 That's not good.

00:03:30.540 And the trend is downhill.

00:03:32.080 And the prognosis by financial analysts is that we'll continue that downhill trend for the next 40 years.

00:03:39.280 So that's not good.

00:03:40.620 And we face terribly high housing prices and a future that looks increasingly unstable and narrow,

00:03:51.020 especially in comparison to the Americans.

00:03:53.240 Not good.

00:03:53.900 So I spent time with Jim analyzing why that's the case.

00:03:57.940 And part of the reason is that we brought a resource and classic production economy mentality to the realities of the last 30 years.

00:04:09.500 We've made this digital transformation.

00:04:11.620 And the rules of the new world are not the same as the rules of the old world.

00:04:15.980 And we're not playing well in that new set of rules, first of all, partly because we're not actually helping formulate the rules to our benefit.

00:04:24.860 And we need to do that.

00:04:26.020 And so we talked about the shortcomings of a purely free market, hands-off, libertarian approach to the new economy.

00:04:33.800 And then we talked about Trump and what he's up to and why, what he's maneuvering towards,

00:04:40.000 and why we set ourself up to be susceptible to that.

00:04:43.100 And then we talked, and this is equally relevant, about the leadership options that Canada faces,

00:04:49.640 which are very much akin to the leadership options faced by voters all around the world.

00:04:54.340 On the one hand, the Liberal Party in Canada that's currently ruling and generally does in Canada,

00:05:01.180 headed until recently by Justin Trudeau, has now had a replacement of leadership.

00:05:06.460 That's pending tomorrow.

00:05:08.000 And Mark Carney has stepped in.

00:05:09.940 He used to be the governor of the Bank of England, as well as the Bank of Canada.

00:05:13.740 It's a fair bit of international experience.

00:05:15.800 Appears on the surface to be a highly credible individual.

00:05:18.700 And we assessed Carney's ideas, as put forward in his book, Values, for better or worse.

00:05:25.320 And I would say mostly for worse.

00:05:28.300 If you like Trudeau and everything that's transpired under him, you're going to love Carney,

00:05:33.740 because he's basically Trudeau on steroids.

00:05:36.840 And so, well, you can evaluate for yourself as a consequence of this discussion,

00:05:42.160 if you're a Canadian or anyone else who has to deal with Canada, whether or not that's a good idea.

00:05:46.940 We talked about Pierre Polyev, who leads the Conservatives and the positive signs within his budding administration of a, of what?

00:05:59.240 There's evidence accruing that he's beginning to grapple with the complexities of the new digital age

00:06:04.960 and provides a real alternative, a beckoning alternative, we hope, for Canadians perplexed by the new world and their position in it.

00:06:14.460 And so, all of that with Jim Balsley.

00:06:18.160 And it's a very important podcast, at minimum for Canadians, but also for anyone who wants to understand the realities of the new world order.

00:06:29.200 So, a lot has changed, well, in the world in recent years, but a lot for the world in Canada since Mr. Trump was elected.

00:06:39.200 And he's been rampaging around, for better or worse, like a bull in the China shop, and a fair bit of that has come Canada's way. 0.85

00:06:47.500 And so, I've been thinking through that from a variety of angles and for a variety of reasons.

00:06:54.440 And one of the things I wanted to do was to reach out to the people I know who have a clue and invite them to discuss with me what the current situation is.

00:07:04.880 And I don't know anyone in Canada who's best situated to do that than Jim Balsley, a man I've known for about 15 years.

00:07:13.960 We've worked on a variety of projects together, got to know each other, and that's been a real privilege.

00:07:18.680 And so, first thing I thought I might do for all of you desperate Canadians who are watching with your mouths opened exactly what's happening to your country is to grill Jim a little bit about his background,

00:07:31.580 or ask him politely even about his background, so that you understand why I'm talking to him and why it might be useful to follow along with the conversation and learn along with me.

00:07:45.020 And so, Jim, you're best known for BlackBerry.

00:07:51.240 Yeah, so you want to tell us a little bit about that, but put that in a broader context.

00:07:56.040 Like, you've had a lot of experience on the economic side, business side, political side in Canada, but also in the United States and internationally.

00:08:06.720 And so, and you've chosen to stay in Canada, and you're a staunch patriot for reasons that we'll go into, but you also understand, and I think uniquely, what Canada faces and how that's come about.

00:08:20.420 So, well, I think we should start by talking about your experience first.

00:08:24.860 Sure, and it's great to be with you.

00:08:27.020 So, yeah, we've known each other for 15 years.

00:08:29.800 You were also my wife's professor 25 years ago when there were nine students in your class.

00:08:35.460 So, my gosh, what a journey.

00:08:37.240 Congratulations for you.

00:08:39.500 For me with RIM...

00:08:40.940 There were nine very good students, by the way.

00:08:43.620 Yes, prodigies.

00:08:45.120 Yeah.

00:08:45.300 So, with me with RIM, it's the greatest...

00:08:49.260 I mean, first of all, I believe capitalism is, in a liberal democracy, is the best form for human flourishing in the world.

00:08:57.840 And I'm an ardent fan of capitalism, entrepreneurship, technology, innovation.

00:09:04.480 And that created the framework for me to be partners with Mike Lazaridis as co-CEOs to create BlackBerry, something we took that really globalized the smartphone, grew it from an idea to $20 billion in over 150 countries around the world.

00:09:24.500 And it's remarkable.

00:09:26.500 You prosper beyond your wildest dreams.

00:09:29.180 You change the world.

00:09:30.660 And you also learn how the world works.

00:09:33.300 And I very quickly learned and had very good mentors in the United States that the way I'd been explained how the economy works is very, very different than the way it works in the ground.

00:09:45.340 And so, that's what shaped my experience at RIM.

00:09:49.700 As I said, we grew it to $20 billion.

00:09:53.220 I retired at the end of 2011 when we had $5.2 billion in revenue on a $20 billion year and moved on to other things.

00:10:02.940 And Mike stayed with it.

00:10:04.620 So, yeah, that was my experience.

00:10:08.160 And you've stayed active as a businessman.

00:10:10.180 Sure.

00:10:10.560 Well, and in all sorts of other realms since then as well.

00:10:12.860 Sure, sure.

00:10:13.140 So, it's not like your involvement on the economic side practically or conceptually ended when you retired.

00:10:19.880 And so, I've been watching that over the last 15 years too.

00:10:22.760 Yeah, yeah.

00:10:23.360 You have developed expertise in a broad variety of areas and you set up political think tank as well at Waterloo, which is where we are today.

00:10:33.140 Yeah.

00:10:33.420 And so, you're interested.

00:10:35.100 And I also do most of my time is still with my businesses around the world.

00:10:37.740 I spend two-thirds to three-quarters of my time with my businesses in North America, tech and other, and in Europe and the Middle East.

00:10:45.840 So, yeah, most of my – I'm still fundamentally a businessman.

00:10:49.300 Right, right.

00:10:50.060 You're right.

00:10:50.480 Well, and I've seen you branch out, I suppose, or what, pursue the development of your ideas on the conceptual side in parallel to your continuing as a businessman over, let's say, the last 15 years.

00:11:05.620 And you and I have gone to D.C. a couple of times and began to work with relatively distinguished political leaders in Congress and in the Senate there on a variety of issues like digital rights and rights in a digital age.

00:11:19.920 Yeah.

00:11:20.440 So, we have some joint understanding of how things work in Washington as well, which is also useful when considering Canada in relationship to the world.

00:11:28.540 So, we thought we'd start by talking about – I want you to take the floor here and lay out for Canadian listeners and for the international audience as well exactly the nature of Canada's, we'll say, specifically economic situation now and even over the last 30 years.

00:11:50.340 And so, let's start with an analysis of the reality on the ground and then a causal analysis of how we got there.

00:11:58.240 Sure, sure.

00:11:58.920 And again, I come at this as an ardent capitalist, so I'm going to explain how capitalism works and Canada's issue in this and why the U.S. and other like-type economies have thrived so much in this changed era.

00:12:13.800 And the traditional economy is a production economy where you manufacture goods and you produce them with efficiency and scale and you sell them at a positive margin and you fundamentally compete on cost.

00:12:30.780 And the purpose of trade agreements was to get rid of friction of moving those products or what are called tariffs or border adjustments.

00:12:39.660 And that's the traditional economy.

00:12:41.380 And Canada does that pretty well.

00:12:44.440 It set up foreign branch plants.

00:12:47.480 They brought technology.

00:12:48.760 They brought machinery.

00:12:50.020 They brought capital.

00:12:50.840 They brought management.

00:12:51.780 And when you set up these plants, they create domestic supply chains.

00:12:55.700 They create upskilling of workers.

00:12:57.980 They create domestic tax base.

00:13:01.580 And you get lots of these positive spillovers and the headquarters gets good performance and everything works great.

00:13:08.140 And that was Canada's prosperity.

00:13:10.140 Canada had tremendous prosperity post-World War II, really up until the early 1990s.

00:13:17.020 About 30 years ago, the U.S. culminated a multi-year effort to birth the knowledge-based economy of intellectual property.

00:13:27.580 And so, this culminated with putting in the NAFTA agreement, extensive intellectual property provisions in 1994.

00:13:37.240 But also, in the World Trade Organization, the U.S. led a five-year exercise to globalize intellectual property rights.

00:13:48.020 And it was called TRIPS, the Trade-Related Aspects for Intellectual Property Systems.

00:13:53.840 I think something like that.

00:13:54.620 And so, the world shifted to amassing IP assets and collecting a rent.

00:14:03.380 So, it stopped being a production-based economy only, and it became a two-legged race. 0.90

00:14:11.300 Liberalizing markets, capital, and labor through production economy, Riccardi and comparative advantage of making things.

00:14:22.420 So, it was a parallel race to a parallel race of enclosing knowledge using agreements to spread friction and monopoly to capture a rent based on an idea.

00:14:36.020 Okay, let me summarize that, okay?

00:14:37.940 So that I can make sure I got it so that everybody is clear about what happened and when.

00:14:42.580 And so, if I get any of it wrong, tell me.

00:14:45.400 So, after World War II, Canada's been one of the world's wealthiest countries, and a lot of that's emerged after World War II.

00:14:52.980 And we've certainly competed with the Americans, well, up until the 1990s, let's say, in terms of our ability to amass wealth.

00:14:59.600 And we did that in three ways.

00:15:02.560 We were very productive in the natural resource economy, on the manufacturing side, and in finance.

00:15:11.140 Canada was outstanding.

00:15:13.080 And so then, in the 1990s, I was in Boston, and I can remember the weeks at Harvard when Netscape emerged and the internet started to become the dominant force that it is.

00:15:26.820 And I could feel the excitement in the U.S. at that time.

00:15:30.860 I was there from, like, 92 to 98, and that place was just optimistic beyond belief and just bursting at the seams.

00:15:37.760 That was in the Clinton era, right?

00:15:39.420 And that's exactly the time that you're pointing to where the shift occurred.

00:15:43.260 So, the ground that Canada had been occupying, resources, manufacturing, and finance, was based on a certain understanding of the economy and a certain set of rules.

00:15:54.540 And what you're telling everyone, trying to tell everyone in Canada, that the ground rules shifted radically in 1994.

00:16:01.560 And we stayed there.

00:16:04.280 Is that approximately right?

00:16:06.540 100%.

00:16:07.020 And that's interesting, because that's at the time we were also doing BlackBerry.

00:16:11.440 And my mentors were in commercialization, were in the U.S. and helping me in Washington and all the different things we had to do to navigate.

00:16:19.660 But I think the original sin in Canada was in 1994.

00:16:25.120 Early 1994, Canada signed two agreements.

00:16:28.240 The NAFTA agreement with extensive intellectual property provisions, which was new.

00:16:33.480 And the TRIPS agreement of the World Trade Organization, which was the globalization of the IP system.

00:16:40.300 But what's interesting is, domestically in Canada, later that year, they published a book called The Orange Book.

00:16:48.640 Who's they?

00:16:49.520 Industry Canada, the Government of Canada.

00:16:51.500 Yep.

00:16:52.040 It published an orange book, and you can see it on the web, called Building a More Innovative Canada.

00:16:58.720 And this is six months after we signed these two treaties.

00:17:02.160 And they talk about innovation is all about jobs.

00:17:05.480 Yep.

00:17:05.760 And they make no reference to the two IP treaties that were the underpinning of innovation that they signed earlier that year.

00:17:13.120 Right.

00:17:13.700 So the revolution occurred, but it didn't have any follow-up consequences for the reconceptualization of Canada's economy.

00:17:20.600 They didn't know a revolution had occurred.

00:17:23.180 Yeah.

00:17:24.020 Okay, so let's delve into that a little bit, because it's so important.

00:17:29.080 And it's been difficult for me to understand this.

00:17:30.920 So I'm sure it's difficult for our political leaders and for Canadians as a whole.

00:17:35.000 So why were these new arrangements radical?

00:17:39.860 So that first, but equally importantly, or more importantly, why did they not work to Canada's advantage?

00:17:48.100 Like, what did we do wrong?

00:17:49.380 What are they?

00:17:51.080 What did we misunderstand?

00:17:52.840 And what did we fail to apply moving forward?

00:17:55.480 Well, the U.S. understood that if it was to be strong and prosperous, rich, powerful, and secure, it had to corral this knowledge.

00:18:05.880 So the world moved from open science, open knowledge, to closed science and monopolized knowledge.

00:18:13.080 That you had to get a rent.

00:18:15.560 You had to pay a rent for the permission to use somebody else's intellectual property.

00:18:20.740 And that went to software technology.

00:18:23.000 It went to pharmaceuticals.

00:18:24.420 It went to manufacturing technology.

00:18:26.320 It went to creative industries.

00:18:29.520 Right.

00:18:29.820 That went to all the value adds that are on top of basic resources as well.

00:18:33.980 Yeah, intangibles are now 90% of the value of the S&P 500.

00:18:37.960 That's where all the money's been.

00:18:39.480 And so-

00:18:39.680 So define intangibles again for everybody.

00:18:42.260 Well, intangible asset is an asset.

00:18:45.280 When you have a physical asset, like this jacket is a physical asset.

00:18:51.140 I own it.

00:18:52.140 That's called a positive right.

00:18:54.600 But the design, and only one person can wear it at a time.

00:18:58.420 That's called rivalrous.

00:19:00.360 Right, so it's finite in supply.

00:19:02.020 It's finite.

00:19:02.720 But the design of this jacket is not finite.

00:19:07.600 It's non-rivalrous.

00:19:09.180 A million people can have that design where that's not designed at the same time.

00:19:15.040 And the person who owns that design has a negative right that says,

00:19:19.740 I have the legal right to stop you from using that design.

00:19:23.360 So they own a fence.

00:19:25.120 They own a fence.

00:19:25.940 And the economy shifted from getting rich from producing jackets alone

00:19:32.380 to extracting a rent for the design of that jacket.

00:19:38.000 Okay, so in the 1990s, and I think this should be clear to everybody,

00:19:41.380 it's pretty obvious in retrospect that the world virtualized in the 1990s

00:19:46.980 when the net burst onto the scene.

00:19:50.200 I guess one of the early things that happened there,

00:19:52.140 and this is kind of relevant to this, was success in business isn't just about offering

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00:19:59.820 What truly sets thriving companies apart is having powerful, reliable tools,

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00:20:06.640 These are the systems that turn the complex challenge of reaching customers

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00:21:06.720 What was the early music underground sharing?

00:21:14.400 Oh, Napster.

00:21:15.360 Napster.

00:21:16.080 Napster.

00:21:16.720 That's right.

00:21:17.280 Because all of a sudden, music became virtualized.

00:21:20.000 Yeah, of course.

00:21:20.660 And then it was everywhere.

00:21:22.880 And the people who owned the physical artifacts, like records, for example,

00:21:27.180 well, records ceased to exist.

00:21:28.660 The physical artifacts no longer signified ownership of the information.

00:21:33.700 And so, well, Napster obviously eventually morphed into Spotify, but that completely transformed

00:21:39.640 that industry.

00:21:40.720 So the essential issue here is that in the 1990s and since then, the goods themselves

00:21:47.900 virtualized and Canada signed agreements pertaining to that.

00:21:52.260 But for some reason, this is also what I'd like to understand, for some reason, we didn't

00:21:57.760 really understand what had changed or what we'd signed.

00:22:00.680 So how deep is this problem?

00:22:03.640 What have been the consequences?

00:22:04.900 And why the hell didn't we play the game well?

00:22:07.540 Other countries did.

00:22:08.780 So let's delve into that.

00:22:10.420 Yeah.

00:22:10.780 And when you physically own something, it's kind of not contested most of the time.

00:22:17.880 It's unambiguous.

00:22:19.960 But ownership of an idea evolves literally hundreds of times a day, different standards.

00:22:25.840 And so Napster is an idea where there was very intense copyright issues that shut down

00:22:31.800 Napster.

00:22:32.640 But there was a dozen very substantial copyright cases for Google.

00:22:38.960 Were you allowed to bring a snippet forward?

00:22:41.000 And if you remember, all the owners of this content were litigating from New York City to

00:22:45.980 say, stop Google.

00:22:46.860 And Google ran the cards.

00:22:49.200 And so a bunch of judicial decisions framed the opening for Google to do search.

00:22:54.800 Right.

00:22:55.840 We see the same thing happening right now with the AI companies fighting over the right

00:23:00.200 to scrape data, for example, and derive the patterns that are underneath.

00:23:04.040 Yeah.

00:23:04.340 And that's a principle of fair use.

00:23:06.780 Because when you index something and you show it forward to somebody and then give a

00:23:12.580 link to that content, is that taking away their revenue?

00:23:16.240 And they argued no in the original search.

00:23:19.880 But now in AI, do the weights embody expressive content that fundamentally takes away the revenue

00:23:28.260 of the owner?

00:23:29.800 Or even replaces the owner.

00:23:31.340 Well, I mean, yeah, replaces and takes away the revenue are two sides of the same coin.

00:23:35.100 And then at that point, the courts have to weigh in because intellectual property is not a natural

00:23:41.480 right.

00:23:42.000 It's a social bargain.

00:23:43.620 Whereas your physical possession is pretty much kind of a natural right.

00:23:47.120 My home is my home.

00:23:48.620 It's more self-evident.

00:23:49.660 It's self-evident.

00:23:50.780 But these are evolving bargains for social good.

00:23:53.780 Okay.

00:23:54.060 So that's a very crucial point as far as I'm concerned.

00:23:57.080 Because one of the things that you and I have discussed constantly and that I'm still

00:24:00.800 trying to wrap my mind around is the interplay between the social contract that you just described,

00:24:07.940 which is the legal framework that guarantees and governs ownership,

00:24:11.420 and the operation of the free market economy.

00:24:14.320 And we'll return to this.

00:24:15.500 One of the things that you've pointed out to me, and I think maybe I've even learned,

00:24:19.560 is that the libertarian types who insist that if we pull the regulatory framework back and

00:24:26.640 just let the free market operate, that riches will emerge automatically.

00:24:31.560 That presupposition is not as valid as we might hope in an information age because there's a

00:24:40.460 contract underneath defining what constitutes ownership that has to be worked out before

00:24:45.340 the free market can even operate.

00:24:47.300 And that's, from what I've understood from you in our discussions, that's exactly where

00:24:51.180 Canada went wrong.

00:24:52.380 We signed these agreements.

00:24:53.900 Okay, now, so was there something, what did we miss with the agreements?

00:24:58.820 Well, what did the agreements specify?

00:25:00.860 And why did we not notice what we were doing?

00:25:03.400 And what did we miss?

00:25:04.400 Yeah, and there's some good questions there.

00:25:07.420 I mean, one is that Milton Friedman talks a lot about free markets, but that predates

00:25:12.700 the knowledge-based economy and then the data-driven economy.

00:25:15.240 Right, and he's a favorite of the libertarian free market type.

00:25:17.660 Well, but the issue is the nature of these laws is to introduce friction to grant monopolies.

00:25:25.560 So free trade agreements in a production economy are to spread competition.

00:25:29.900 But then these agreements went to stronger and stronger enforcement of intellectual property

00:25:36.340 rights to spread monopolies.

00:25:38.580 And the market and the government designs and changes the definition of ownership all

00:25:44.240 the time for-

00:25:46.060 And the courts as well, eh?

00:25:46.740 With the courts interpreting that to advance state interest, advance their-

00:25:52.800 So it becomes an instrument of geostrategic projection because if you control the valuable

00:25:58.060 assets, you're more secure and you're more rich.

00:26:01.320 And so it was a two-legged race, spreading liberalization of markets, capital, and labor.

00:26:10.000 Yeah, which we did reasonably well at.

00:26:11.740 And then enclosing and monopolizing knowledge.

00:26:15.660 Right, which we didn't understand and didn't do well at.

00:26:18.320 Well, but other countries did it very, very well.

00:26:20.540 Yeah, okay, well, let's delve into that.

00:26:22.500 Was there something, did we miss the boat with regards to the agreements as such?

00:26:28.060 Like, were we out-negotiated?

00:26:30.080 No, no, we signed the same agreements as everybody else.

00:26:33.260 But as I said to you, I think the original sin was that 1994, December 1994, Orange Book

00:26:40.380 by Industry Canada, that talks about building a more innovative economy, that it's about

00:26:46.640 better jobs and more efficiency, which are production economy constructs, and never references

00:26:54.080 the two seismic treaties that the country signed six months earlier.

00:26:59.180 Okay, so is that a failure with regard to our political leadership?

00:27:04.520 Is it a failure with our business leaders?

00:27:06.600 Is it a failure in the education system?

00:27:09.300 Like, you've pointed out to me, let me list off some countries.

00:27:14.120 So, the United States did this well.

00:27:16.640 China did this well.

00:27:17.760 Switzerland did this well.

00:27:19.300 The Baltic, or the Nordic states did this well.

00:27:23.660 The countries that are thriving around the world, the developed countries that are thriving

00:27:27.360 around the world, seem to understand this and move forward.

00:27:30.760 And what's Canada's comparative situation over the last 30 years?

00:27:35.260 Well, Canada, in the last 10 years, has been last place in GDP per capita of the top 50

00:27:42.120 developed countries in the world.

00:27:44.460 Is that in GDP increase or?

00:27:46.460 Well, GDP per capita performance, which is-

00:27:48.920 Performance.

00:27:49.360 You can call it the worst decrease.

00:27:51.840 Yeah.

00:27:52.620 You know, we're last place in performance in ability-

00:27:57.380 Of 50 developed countries.

00:27:58.440 Of the 50 developed countries.

00:27:59.440 Of the 50, over the last 10 years.

00:28:01.360 And in the last 40 years, we're last place in the OECD in productivity, in growing that.

00:28:07.980 Well, let's take those apart.

00:28:08.800 And then we're forecast to be last place in the next 40 years.

00:28:12.280 So, we've pretty well cemented.

00:28:13.320 So, we've got 100 years.

00:28:14.320 We're cemented last place.

00:28:16.100 Okay.

00:28:16.480 So, I want to take that apart because I want everybody who's listening to understand.

00:28:20.140 So, let's start with GDP per capita.

00:28:22.900 Okay.

00:28:23.140 So, GDP, gross domestic product, is an index, and make sure I get the words right here,

00:28:28.240 is an index of overall economic productivity for the country as a whole.

00:28:33.820 And then you can divide that by the number of people and calculate how much each person

00:28:37.640 is producing.

00:28:38.800 And then you can compare countries by that.

00:28:41.020 Yeah.

00:28:41.260 It's a proxy for paycheck per worker.

00:28:43.680 Right.

00:28:44.120 Right.

00:28:44.740 And-

00:28:45.240 It's a quality of your paycheck.

00:28:47.320 What's that?

00:28:47.940 It's a quality of your paycheck per worker.

00:28:49.880 Yeah.

00:28:49.960 Right.

00:28:50.160 So, actually, an index of your productivity and your wealth, and an index of what you have

00:28:54.600 in your pocket.

00:28:55.440 Right.

00:28:55.660 Okay.

00:28:56.000 So, 10 years, 15 years ago, Canada was at parity, equal with the U.S., or even slightly

00:29:02.680 ahead.

00:29:03.260 And now we're-

00:29:04.860 The divergence is-

00:29:06.420 60 cents to the Americans' dollar.

00:29:08.280 Catastrophic.

00:29:09.040 Catastrophic.

00:29:09.720 Right.

00:29:10.140 And the direction is downward.

00:29:12.540 So, the Americans are going to get richer.

00:29:14.200 Yeah.

00:29:14.480 Yeah.

00:29:14.860 And the Canadians are going to get poorer.

00:29:16.560 Yeah.

00:29:16.700 And we could be in a situation in five years where we're what?

00:29:20.480 We're half as wealthy as the Americans.

00:29:22.160 We're already 60% as wealthy.

00:29:24.260 Could happen this year.

00:29:26.040 It could happen this year.

00:29:27.320 Sure.

00:29:27.580 Okay.

00:29:27.820 So, what do you think, if we don't wake up and we look out 10 years, what's the difference

00:29:36.180 between Canada and the U.S. economically?

00:29:40.360 Well, as I've said, rhetorically, we become Puerto Rico without a passport.

00:29:45.120 We'll be very poor in terms of quality of life and what we can buy and no political representation,

00:29:54.500 no clout.

00:29:55.220 And we have a beautiful country that both you and I love, but it's an expensive country.

00:30:00.380 So, if you don't have the prosperity, you can't pay for the health care, the public safety,

00:30:07.080 the social services, the heat, all the things that we value of being a prosperous, sophisticated

00:30:13.620 country.

00:30:14.540 And we've seen those come under stress in this last era.

00:30:17.660 Okay.

00:30:17.940 So, let's detail out that a little bit.

00:30:19.420 So, it's expensive.

00:30:20.200 It hurts a lot when you don't do well in this.

00:30:22.340 Right.

00:30:22.640 Okay.

00:30:23.000 So, our housing is prohibitively expensive.

00:30:26.020 Yeah.

00:30:26.420 Not only in absolute sense, but also in comparison to the Americans.

00:30:29.960 Our health care system is under terrible stress.

00:30:32.900 The same can be said for the education system.

00:30:35.560 Where else do you see?

00:30:36.640 Well, even Ontario now, which was Canada's richest province, is poorer in terms of per

00:30:42.240 capita GDP than Mississippi, which is the Americans' most poverty-stricken state.

00:30:48.980 And we're on a downhill trend.

00:30:51.540 Yes, that's all correct.

00:30:52.600 Yeah.

00:30:52.760 And one and a quarter Canadians have food insecurity now.

00:30:55.660 Define food insecurity.

00:30:56.980 Well, there's metrics on it, but basically, they're not able to provide.

00:31:01.700 They're skipping meals, or children are unable to be fed what they need.

00:31:05.800 So, you're not secure in providing the food to your home.

00:31:11.300 Okay.

00:31:11.680 So, one in four.

00:31:12.940 Yeah.

00:31:13.200 That's really...

00:31:14.420 And food bank lines have doubled.

00:31:16.100 And these things, these are terrible consequences of economic policy and attention.

00:31:20.400 Yeah.

00:31:20.580 It really hits home.

00:31:22.040 Okay.

00:31:23.380 Now, so, what did Canada do wrong in the aftermath of these agreements that other countries did

00:31:29.100 right?

00:31:29.600 You related an anecdote to me earlier this week.

00:31:33.880 Some gentleman you were talking to talked about his international experience with committees

00:31:38.800 dealing with IP ownership.

00:31:41.040 Yeah, for sure.

00:31:41.740 Sure.

00:31:42.460 Yeah.

00:31:43.020 And in, I mean, in the United States, they have, you know, the White House has an office

00:31:48.960 of IP, you know, it has an IP caucus.

00:31:52.520 And they have, and he said he's a very, he runs a global IP, international IP association

00:31:58.300 that everybody knows.

00:31:59.540 Right.

00:31:59.680 So, that's dealing with ownership of intellectual property.

00:32:01.740 Yeah.

00:32:01.760 And he says all these other countries have IP attaches, but he never comes across an IP

00:32:06.180 attache of Canada.

00:32:07.420 Right.

00:32:07.720 So, the Americans have a council of businessmen and intellectual property specialists.

00:32:13.080 Yeah.

00:32:13.300 I presume that's tech people and lawyers who do nothing...

00:32:16.560 Pharmaceutical and Hollywood and agriculture and finance.

00:32:21.640 It's every sector's an IP business.

00:32:23.740 Right.

00:32:24.100 And all they do is concentrate on analyzing the ownership structure of abstracted property

00:32:30.180 and...

00:32:31.000 And changing it to their favor.

00:32:32.780 Right.

00:32:33.100 Informing the government and legislating and negotiating so that that works in the favor

00:32:38.100 of the U.S.

00:32:38.520 And then inserting it into, quote unquote, trade agreements that don't say trade.

00:32:42.120 You can look at the million words of the USMCA.

00:32:44.400 You wouldn't let find the words free trade in it, but they use them as instruments of regulatory

00:32:49.360 remote control to extract the rentier economy to their home country's benefit.

00:32:55.420 Okay.

00:32:56.060 USMCA.

00:32:56.680 Detailed out.

00:32:57.580 That's the Canada's trade agreement signed under Trump six, seven years.

00:33:03.920 Right.

00:33:04.220 And that's trumpeted often as, so to speak, as a free trade agreement.

00:33:08.220 But you say in a million words, there's no reference to free trade.

00:33:11.600 And what you're pointing out is that it's not a free trade agreement as conceptualized by

00:33:17.400 people who are thinking about a resource-based economy.

00:33:19.780 It's a protracted argument about who owns what virtual property to whose advantage.

00:33:26.720 And we're losing that now.

00:33:28.360 Right.

00:33:28.500 We don't even know the battle exists.

00:33:29.840 It's an instrument for regulatory remote control.

00:33:32.620 Yes.

00:33:32.720 Okay.

00:33:33.100 Tell me what that means, regulatory remote control.

00:33:35.360 They set the rules for how we manage our IP systems, regulate our healthcare, put in standards,

00:33:43.220 how we manage who we can, how we do our macroeconomic policies, who we can do trade agreements with.

00:33:50.860 Right.

00:33:51.040 So it's a form of legislative control over the entire Canadian economy.

00:33:54.620 Yeah.

00:33:54.680 It's a seeding of democracy, for sure.

00:33:56.900 And it also had a provision to sunset it in six and a half years, which created a chronic instability,

00:34:03.020 which has come home at this time, literally.

00:34:06.160 And I was trying to explain that this is actually a ticking time bomb for Canada.

00:34:13.020 What do you mean you were trying to explain that?

00:34:14.500 I was writing and articulating that if you read the agreement, it's none of the celebration

00:34:19.380 that's happening in the economic discourse in the media of the country, that this is going

00:34:25.260 to erode our prosperity, which has happened, and it's going to come back with a bomb to

00:34:31.160 supersize the erosion of that prosperity.

00:34:32.720 Well, you have to read the agreement and you have to understand it.

00:34:35.880 Yeah, but I read agreements for a living.

00:34:37.420 That's what I do all day.

00:34:38.720 These are legal economic contracts.

00:34:41.220 That's what you do.

00:34:41.860 Okay, so let me drill down into this a little bit.

00:34:44.640 You tell me, yeah, well, that's why I'm talking to you, because we can benefit from the fact

00:34:49.760 that you do that.

00:34:50.420 So I'm going to take a concrete example, because I think those are helpful for explaining.

00:34:54.140 I know that you tell me if this is a relevant one, and if it isn't, we'll bring up one

00:34:58.360 that's relevant.

00:34:58.900 I want you to explain to people using an example in a given corporate domain of how,

00:35:05.880 how the American advantage in control of such things has worked to Canada's detriment.

00:35:12.400 Now, one of the battles you fought, I know, was with the smart city folks.

00:35:19.020 Do you want to, do you want, is that a good example of?

00:35:22.200 Yeah.

00:35:22.520 Okay, so let's delve into that a little bit to make it concrete.

00:35:25.140 Yeah, but what's interesting about that is that was, our government invited Google to

00:35:30.960 privatize our largest city, government of our largest city, under the Google Sidewalk

00:35:35.400 Labs.

00:35:36.220 Right.

00:35:36.860 And that was trumpeted as a triumph of negotiation for Canada and an immense economic opportunity.

00:35:42.460 By the prime minister's office, yeah.

00:35:44.280 Right.

00:35:44.620 You weren't happy with that, and it didn't happen.

00:35:46.920 And so it's not obvious why you weren't happy with that.

00:35:50.280 I mean, because it came packaged in a pretty nice, shiny box.

00:35:54.080 We'll have smart cities.

00:35:55.600 We'll have much more effective information flow.

00:35:58.280 We're leaping into the 21st century.

00:36:00.600 Canada will be at the forefront of this.

00:36:02.600 Your objection, as I understood it, was, yeah, but Google will own all the data pertaining

00:36:09.140 to all the behavior of everyone who lives in a city like that, and that there's immense

00:36:14.760 economic value in that, but also the danger of a kind of totalizing legislative and monitoring

00:36:21.620 control.

00:36:22.560 Yes, is that?

00:36:23.160 Yeah.

00:36:23.600 Can I wind this back and walk into it?

00:36:27.120 So you ask Canada's, we talk about Canada's original sin and how we got there. 0.60

00:36:31.440 So in 1989, and I will work into this because you see the original sin, in 1989, we signed

00:36:38.500 the original Canada-U.S. free trade agreement, and that was liberalizing all these things.

00:36:44.600 That was leg one.

00:36:45.820 That was leg one.

00:36:47.180 And then because of that, all Canada has to do is take its hands off everything forever

00:36:52.980 and do nothing.

00:36:53.900 And the smartest person in the room is the one that builds no capacity and doesn't do

00:37:01.440 anything.

00:37:02.500 Right.

00:37:02.700 And so that's, you could think about that as the libertarian dream, but also the libertarian

00:37:09.520 abdication of responsibility, both at the same time.

00:37:12.660 And that was Canada's economic orthodoxy.

00:37:14.660 And maybe there was some value in that orthodoxy when we were fundamentally a resource and leg one

00:37:21.320 economy.

00:37:21.600 And it's part of one leg.

00:37:24.480 It's necessary, but not sufficient.

00:37:27.300 Okay.

00:37:28.480 Even with regard to that leg.

00:37:30.700 Yeah, no.

00:37:31.300 But certainly not sufficient in a knowledge economy.

00:37:33.860 So then what happened was, we had an economic thinking capacity in the country called an economic

00:37:41.740 council, which was the equivalent of some of these sophisticated realms in the United States.

00:37:46.980 These IP offices, they have trade advisory committee.

00:37:50.420 You know, the U.S. has 50-year-old, if you go to the U.S. trade representative and search

00:37:56.360 advisory committees, they have 26 advisory committees, 700 experts, been together for

00:38:01.460 50 years.

00:38:02.560 Right.

00:38:03.000 Tremendous insertion of sophistication.

00:38:06.200 Right.

00:38:06.380 And these are smart, dedicated, patriotic people.

00:38:09.560 Right.

00:38:09.740 And they're pushing their country's interest.

00:38:11.660 And we shut all that down in Canada.

00:38:15.180 Because you don't need to do anything.

00:38:16.600 You don't need to know anything.

00:38:17.500 You just have to cut taxes, cut regulations, get out of the way.

00:38:20.880 Which is the true efficient nature of leg one.

00:38:25.020 Yeah.

00:38:25.280 But when you make yourself blind, you're not able to see this leg two come along because 0.84

00:38:32.060 you're done.

00:38:32.940 Right.

00:38:33.120 And it's leg two that happens to be kicking the hell out of us at the moment, say, in the

00:38:37.140 last two months.

00:38:38.180 Right.

00:38:38.420 Right.

00:38:38.840 So what happened was, so this was around 92, we shut down our economic council to save

00:38:44.960 money.

00:38:46.020 So it's, yeah, it's getting...

00:38:48.640 So now the people that would...

00:38:49.420 It's like taking the instruments off the airplane to save money.

00:38:52.220 Right.

00:38:52.540 Because you don't need instruments anymore.

00:38:54.800 Right.

00:38:55.180 So the people with knowledge on the ground, and that would be people like you who could

00:39:00.140 have informed our political leaders with regard to the policies necessary to protect

00:39:05.060 intellectual property, for example, virtualized property.

00:39:08.620 There's no council to do that now.

00:39:11.240 There's no communication network set up to focus on that.

00:39:14.200 And there's nothing...

00:39:14.900 And there's no interest.

00:39:15.300 There's no interest.

00:39:16.160 Right.

00:39:16.440 So even worse, there's no mechanism to...

00:39:18.120 It's we know everything.

00:39:19.780 Knowledge is...

00:39:20.640 We have all the knowledge we ever need.

00:39:23.300 Knowledge is over.

00:39:24.880 Right.

00:39:25.320 Just get out of the way. 0.64

00:39:26.520 Right.

00:39:26.880 Okay.

00:39:27.320 So let's talk about...

00:39:29.760 Well, if it's still relevant, let's talk about what happened, why that Google proposal

00:39:34.520 was dangerous.

00:39:35.500 And the other two things that you mentioned to me recently that I thought were relevant

00:39:39.460 was the fact, for example, that the Google executives themselves have claimed that the intellectual

00:39:47.220 property they utilized to produce...

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00:40:53.900 A company that was for a while the largest company in the world and is still unbelievably

00:40:58.700 dominant.

00:40:59.920 Much of that came from Canada.

00:41:02.860 Yeah.

00:41:03.120 Well, okay.

00:41:03.580 So, let me put one more step into this and then I'll go to the Google part.

00:41:10.460 Yeah.

00:41:10.660 And so, what happens is in the production economy, when you bring in a foreign branch plant, as

00:41:15.520 I said a few minutes ago, you get management, technology, you get capital, you get skills

00:41:21.960 upgrading of the workers, you get a supply chain in a factory of local vendors, and you

00:41:27.720 get a tax base based on that activity.

00:41:30.120 So, you get a lot of positive what are called economic spillovers from the manufacturing branch

00:41:35.980 plant.

00:41:36.560 When you go to an ideas economy, when you buy the company or come in, you exfiltrate the

00:41:44.120 IP, you exfiltrate the data, all of the ownership is back at the headquarters.

00:41:51.040 There is no management of any consequence in the, when you sell your Peterson Academy

00:41:59.680 into Spain, you don't set up a country president and a whole management team.

00:42:03.840 It's just, you get somebody helping you sell and localize, and then it's all run back wherever

00:42:08.260 you run it.

00:42:09.380 And all the taxes and all the wealth effects happen at the home country.

00:42:14.240 Yeah, we don't need a Spanish branch plant.

00:42:15.640 Exactly.

00:42:16.560 And you don't pay taxes in Spain, and there's no wealth effect in Spain, and there's no

00:42:20.920 management transfer, and all that.

00:42:23.100 So, the spillovers in the tech industry operate exactly opposite, pretty much most of the time,

00:42:31.860 not absolutely, to how they work in the production economy.

00:42:35.640 Right.

00:42:35.900 So, using a branch plant mentality when you're dealing with tech companies is a very bad

00:42:39.900 idea.

00:42:40.420 Disaster.

00:42:40.660 Right, because they also take, even if they do hire people in Canada, let's say, and add

00:42:45.500 to the local economy in that way, they take the intellectual property generated by their

00:42:50.260 employees and pull it back to their centralized. 0.94

00:42:52.480 And the Canadian people are paid less, they tend to have ancillary roles, they're subsidized

00:42:59.300 through tax credits, and yet all the true wealth effects, and if they're really strong and

00:43:03.840 talented, they tend to get moved to the US and never come back.

00:43:06.860 So, that's a hoovering structure there. 0.61

00:43:10.240 And so, the thinking of the Google sidewalk was like setting up a pulp and paper mill in

00:43:17.920 northern Ontario, that this is great, not understanding that they'll own all the IP,

00:43:23.360 own all the data, have all the security benefits, have all the wealth effects, have all the control

00:43:29.640 benefits, and Canada gets 1%, and they get 99%.

00:43:35.600 And if you have that subordinate, low-value-added position in technology, then you get a low

00:43:42.240 GDP per capita, and you can't pay for the country.

00:43:45.800 And it gets a second leg to that, that you're not secure, which is what's happening in the

00:43:51.520 contemporary leverage.

00:43:52.660 And those of us that understand what prosperity and security looks like, saying this is catastrophic,

00:43:59.560 this will be a step in the grave for the country.

00:44:02.400 Okay, so now I think we're getting a little closer to understanding at least some of the

00:44:08.860 reasons why Canada came up short since the 1990s.

00:44:12.620 Now, there's more to the story than this, but one of the things that you intimated was

00:44:18.360 that maybe the Mulroney, I'm not blaming him, but I'll just use him as an example, Mulroney

00:44:25.100 believed, like a good libertarian conservative, even a classic liberal, that eliminating trade

00:44:32.300 barriers would have economic advantage for Canada.

00:44:35.500 And that's a credible argument.

00:44:38.000 But...

00:44:38.200 For leg one.

00:44:39.220 For leg one, right.

00:44:40.580 And so...

00:44:41.180 And his leadership predated the knowledge economy.

00:44:43.980 Exactly.

00:44:44.540 But the downside of that is that you can rely on an outdated and implausible, shallow, free

00:44:53.840 market libertarian ideology as a political leader to say, all that we have to do is shrink

00:45:01.040 government and get the hell out of the way and we'll get rich. 0.93

00:45:04.180 But that's a problem when the reality that you're dealing with is no longer a concrete, material, resource

00:45:13.380 economy problem.

00:45:15.300 And when...

00:45:15.740 Well, the government is making the market and manufactures the assets in the market and

00:45:19.940 it changes them a hundred times a day in the knowledge economy.

00:45:23.660 So...

00:45:23.820 So you have to read the million word agreement and you have to understand it.

00:45:27.340 And you have to have a plan for getting your words in there to advance your specific

00:45:30.920 interests through your advisory councils, which is the opposite of hands-off.

00:45:35.060 Right.

00:45:35.640 And so that there's been an abdication of responsibility on the political front and the

00:45:42.220 justification for that has been something like, well, the free market will take care

00:45:47.040 of it.

00:45:47.680 And so that means even the conservatives so far haven't...

00:45:51.780 None of the political parties have addressed this problem in essentially in 30 years.

00:45:57.700 That's the...

00:45:58.320 Okay.

00:45:58.560 So now that...

00:46:00.260 Are there other...

00:46:01.540 Like, we've still got the situation where other countries have done this better than

00:46:05.260 we have.

00:46:05.720 And it's not like there aren't libertarian free marketers in the United States and else,

00:46:09.900 especially in the US.

00:46:11.040 So I still don't...

00:46:12.560 Is that the only reason...

00:46:14.340 Okay.

00:46:14.620 We were stuck in a resource economy mindset.

00:46:18.300 When we were looking to move ourselves ahead economically, we slipped into a free market

00:46:23.240 and irresponsible libertarianism when that was no longer appropriate in the new markets.

00:46:28.560 Are there other reasons?

00:46:29.820 We disbanded all our councils, so we're not consulting the people with on-the-ground expertise.

00:46:35.300 And so now we're playing a backwoods role.

00:46:37.120 We look like rubes when we go down to DC.

00:46:39.620 And that's definitely the case.

00:46:41.080 Because we're negotiating with people whose knowledge about these things is, first of all,

00:46:45.160 they know that they exist when we don't.

00:46:48.060 And second of all, they have, like, serious, high-powered experts who are, well, eating

00:46:53.180 our lunch, like, literally.

00:46:54.960 And so are there other reasons that we are failing or have failed?

00:46:59.960 Or is that...

00:47:00.640 No.

00:47:01.280 Okay.

00:47:01.560 So that's a reasonable coverage of our...

00:47:04.000 Yeah.

00:47:04.320 And when you...

00:47:05.460 What bothers me so much about this, you have this country with so much potential.

00:47:10.680 We have brilliant innovators.

00:47:13.360 We have brilliant researchers.

00:47:15.000 We come up with earth-changing ideas.

00:47:19.180 And we don't capitalize on them.

00:47:21.420 We give them away.

00:47:22.320 So our economic structure should be much more like the Scandinavians in the U.S., but our 0.87

00:47:28.160 economic structure is much closer to Russia's right now because of this abdication.

00:47:32.360 And so you also mentioned in Google, really quickly, that the taxpayers in Canada spent 30

00:47:38.700 years funding the fundamental artificial intelligence at University of Toronto and in Alberta.

00:47:47.260 So the number three AI research center in the world is in Alberta, in Edmonton.

00:47:52.660 Number five is in Toronto.

00:47:55.960 We gave, essentially, all that away to Google and other U.S. tech companies.

00:48:00.740 So Canada...

00:48:01.300 So what kind of loss is that in economic terms, do you suppose?

00:48:04.260 Trillions.

00:48:05.980 Well, we've also foregone...

00:48:07.160 And you take a trillion away or you take a couple hundred billion dollars of earnings a

00:48:12.080 year on a trillion-dollar asset, that's the difference between an enormous budget

00:48:17.040 surplus paying for military and health care and public safety along the way versus a deficit...

00:48:24.740 And paychecks that can afford a house. 0.89

00:48:26.060 And better paychecks versus a deficit that is eroding those services.

00:48:30.540 Well, and we've also foregone, the analysis I've looked at also suggested in the last 10

00:48:35.860 years under Trudeau, we've foregone $650 million worth of potential, like, leg one investment

00:48:43.600 as well.

00:48:44.140 Because one of the other things that's happened in Canada...

00:48:46.240 Billion, billion.

00:48:46.880 $650 billion.

00:48:47.820 Yeah, billion, yeah.

00:48:48.440 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:48:49.420 And by the way, real quick, also, we also invented fundamental technology for battery, taxpayer-funded

00:48:56.860 from Dalhousie, that we transferred to Tesla.

00:48:58.880 No economic benefit to Canada.

00:49:00.580 The prof gets the research papers.

00:49:02.680 We have fundamental technology for mRNA out of UBC that we don't have any economic benefit

00:49:09.000 for Canada.

00:49:09.600 We have fundamental telecommunications technology, which we transferred from a couple dozen researchers

00:49:14.620 in many universities to Huawei with no economic ownership back to Canada.

00:49:18.880 So, this inattention to owning the assets of IP and data is an orthodoxy in Canada that

00:49:29.600 is inexplicable, that puts us, that is unique to Canada.

00:49:33.680 I've not seen it anywhere else in the world, and it's put us in last place.

00:49:37.960 Okay, so Jim, one more thing.

00:49:40.340 Do you suppose, is it possible that this is also another manifestation of what economists

00:49:45.800 call the resource curse?

00:49:47.700 So, like, if you look across the world, people like to think that countries with plentiful

00:49:53.440 natural resources are naturally rich, but the relationship between natural resource ownership

00:49:58.820 and positioning and wealth, it's flat, and there is even some indication that it's negative,

00:50:04.000 which is rather paradoxical.

00:50:07.400 And you have the counter example of countries like Japan, which have virtually no natural resources,

00:50:12.140 which are very, very wealthy.

00:50:13.600 And so, is it also the case that because Canada has been blessed with this immense geographic

00:50:19.500 landscape and endless natural resources, that we've allowed ourselves to sit on our haunches,

00:50:26.640 so to speak?

00:50:27.220 Absolutely not.

00:50:28.280 Absolutely not.

00:50:28.740 That's a false myth perpetrated by the policy community that thinks they've done it right

00:50:34.300 when they've done it exactly wrong to manufacture an excuse why their strategies didn't work.

00:50:39.220 The U.S. is, I believe now, the largest oil producer in the world.

00:50:42.840 Yeah.

00:50:43.640 Don't see any resource curse there.

00:50:46.480 The Scandinavians, Finland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, tremendous productivity and prosperity

00:50:52.660 and innovation, absolutely bursting with resources.

00:50:56.340 Right, they've managed both.

00:50:57.500 Yeah, so does the Germans. 0.99

00:50:58.540 Canada allowed its reliance on natural resources to justify not delving into these more.

00:51:05.660 But that's not a resource curse.

00:51:07.840 If others with resources don't have that curse, it's a different kind of curse.

00:51:12.600 Because you're saying in the resource curse, if you have resources, you won't be productive.

00:51:18.060 Right, so this is the curse of being...

00:51:19.080 But others with lots of resources are extraordinary.

00:51:21.620 They're world-leading.

00:51:22.680 Right.

00:51:23.260 So this is the curse of being lackadaisical in the face of resource plenty.

00:51:27.180 Yeah, the curse of false myths by those who have failed us, yeah.

00:51:31.080 Okay, okay.

00:51:32.060 Well, let's move...

00:51:32.760 Okay, good.

00:51:33.320 I think we fleshed that out recently.

00:51:34.920 And they've got lots of other ones of complacency, and they use that.

00:51:38.820 And we'll go at cases in a few minutes on those who use this sitting-on-dead-money complacency stuff.

00:51:45.840 But not quite right now, because they use that as an excuse mechanism.

00:51:49.400 But let's keep on this.

00:51:50.600 Well, I think the next thing to do, likely, is to talk about what's happened since Trump has been elected.

00:51:56.440 And the fact that, as mentioned earlier, he's rampaging around like a bull in a China shop. 0.91

00:52:01.820 And suggests that Canada is such a weak country now, and such a weak and useless country, all things considered.

00:52:08.220 That, for all intents and purposes, it might as well be, as a totality, the 51st state.

00:52:13.920 Because it has no use in existing on its own, and it's parasitical on the U.S.

00:52:18.780 And then, on top of that, which is already quite something, he's added these immense tariffs.

00:52:25.520 It's clear that he's not particularly happy with the manner in which Canada is governed.

00:52:29.200 It's not exactly obvious what his endgame is.

00:52:32.020 No, it's obvious.

00:52:33.120 Okay, well, tell us what you think Trump is doing.

00:52:36.600 And why you think we've—elaborate on how we've set ourself up to be the recipient of his peculiar largesse.

00:52:46.060 Yeah, sure.

00:52:46.820 Well, I wrote a piece, which possibly you can put on a link during this thing called We're All Economic Nationalists Now.

00:52:53.920 And the reason I used that was that it's a phrase for strategic U-turns, coined by Milton Friedman.

00:53:02.440 Right.

00:53:02.760 The darling of the free marketer.

00:53:04.700 The darling of the free marketer, because he famously said in the late 60s, we're all Keynesians now.

00:53:09.400 So, he spent 20 years fighting Keynes, and then when there's a crisis with Nixon,

00:53:15.000 and they had to respond to it with a bunch of new monetary and fiscal structures, he said, well, we're all Keynesians now.

00:53:21.740 Right, and Keynes was an interventionist compared to Friedman.

00:53:24.360 And Friedman was at war with him.

00:53:25.840 Right.

00:53:26.160 He represents the opposite.

00:53:28.180 And what he's fundamentally saying is that economics is a social science, not a natural science.

00:53:33.740 And you have to attune your behavior to the facts on the ground.

00:53:36.920 Mm-hmm.

00:53:37.300 So, if you are a Friedmanite in this contemporary reality, then attune, period.

00:53:45.440 And so—

00:53:45.940 Like to the realities of the new ownership doctrines in the knowledge economy, for example.

00:53:49.300 The nature of the geopolitical era of strategic behavior.

00:53:54.020 So, responding very specifically to what you said, the question you asked on Trump,

00:53:59.860 when you go to an intangibles economy, when you're producing economy,

00:54:04.780 you trade on a principle called comparative advantage.

00:54:07.760 Yeah, lay that out.

00:54:08.800 Well, comparative advantage, it was done by David Ricardo, Riccardian comparative advantage,

00:54:13.740 that says, you may produce cups better than me, and even saucers better than me.

00:54:20.780 Mm-hmm.

00:54:21.520 But, if I can produce saucers comparatively better than I produce cups relative to you,

00:54:29.360 if we trade, we're both better off.

00:54:30.940 Mm-hmm.

00:54:31.500 So, it's a principle of comparative advantage.

00:54:33.440 Okay, lay that out one more time, because everyone needs to understand this.

00:54:36.080 So, if you make a cup for $2.

00:54:38.760 Yeah.

00:54:38.900 And, and a saucer for $1, and I make a cup for $3, and a saucer for $2,

00:54:51.140 and I'm going to mess up my logic here, I'm absolutely worse than you on both,

00:54:59.080 but I'm comparatively better on cups, because I'm only 50% more expensive,

00:55:05.140 rather than 100% more expensive.

00:55:07.100 So, if I ship you cups, and you ship me saucers, that will rise the tide of everybody.

00:55:14.520 So, everybody has an incentive to trade on physical goods based on comparative advantage.

00:55:20.260 Yeah.

00:55:21.140 So, I can offer you my best, and you can offer me your best, and in consequence,

00:55:27.380 even if my best isn't as good as yours, we're both going to get wealthier.

00:55:30.480 You trade on Riccardian comparative advantage.

00:55:32.700 Okay, that's a material-based economy.

00:55:34.420 That's a core principle of liberalizing trade.

00:55:38.000 Now, when you go to an ideas economy, which is based on a principle of restriction and monopoly,

00:55:44.800 somebody wants to be the landlord, and somebody has to be the tenant.

00:55:49.540 And you can compete on absolute advantage, or you can be the landlord 10 out of 10 times.

00:55:55.580 It's not a cooperative system anymore.

00:55:57.740 It's a rivalrous system.

00:56:01.100 And what that means is, if you're a big, strong guy...

00:56:05.880 You get everything.

00:56:07.380 You do what's called strategic behavior.

00:56:10.680 And that's what we're experiencing right now.

00:56:12.980 And the piece I wrote on We're All Economic Nationalists Now,

00:56:17.200 I talk about the strategic behavior, Trump 1.0, Biden took all of those things and added many more,

00:56:25.520 which you can read it, and I won't go into them now,

00:56:27.620 but he did many very substantial strategic elements of behavior.

00:56:32.980 Trump first, then Biden.

00:56:34.140 Biden did more than Trump.

00:56:35.540 In relationship to Canada.

00:56:36.260 Yeah, and then Trump took it to a whole other level very, very recently.

00:56:41.120 And so, it's an era of strategic behavior,

00:56:43.340 which means it's not a cooperative-based system.

00:56:45.660 And Canada believed in the multilateral, rules-based order.

00:56:50.760 This is a shared global project.

00:56:53.420 And my exhortation is, this is an absolute advantage era that leads to strategic behavior.

00:57:00.460 And if you don't focus on being reasonably sovereign, reasonably strong,

00:57:06.500 you become the one they pick on.

00:57:08.880 And it's very profitable for a nation state to pick on a weak state,

00:57:13.340 especially one that has some good assets to pick and wither Canada in the era of Trump.

00:57:19.740 Here we go.

00:57:20.260 So, the virtualization of ownership has radically changed the nature of the international social contract.

00:57:26.060 100%.

00:57:26.620 And what happened was is...

00:57:28.460 And we still don't really understand that.

00:57:30.540 And that's part of the reason we've been so susceptible to Trump's maneuvers in the last two months.

00:57:37.060 And we also thought that it was a multilateral, rules-based system

00:57:40.540 where control and ownership of strategic assets doesn't matter.

00:57:45.140 And we're learning a very hard lesson that who owns it and controls it is really important.

00:57:49.340 It's the only thing that matters.

00:57:50.460 It really matters a lot.

00:57:51.920 And so, we're paying a very, very sorry price for that inattention to...

00:57:58.640 Our economic policies were giving tens of billions of dollars to foreign battery companies

00:58:04.560 where we had no domestic control, no very small domestic value add.

00:58:10.940 And now...

00:58:11.620 And what was happening to Canada...

00:58:13.680 And the U.S. played a very clever game.

00:58:16.060 And Western Europe played along.

00:58:17.980 And the Southeast Asians got really good at this. 1.00

00:58:20.060 That they said, if you want to play in the production economy, leg number one,

00:58:24.460 you've got to sign up to these rules on leg number two.

00:58:27.640 Right.

00:58:27.900 Which is the restrictions.

00:58:28.400 So, we own all the ideas.

00:58:30.160 Well, if you get really good, you can start to own some too.

00:58:32.740 But you've got to be very high-functioning,

00:58:34.580 of which the Western Europeans and the Southeast Asians are.

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00:59:34.400 And now what America's doing is saying,

00:59:40.120 just kidding, I want the rules for this intangibles economy,

00:59:43.880 and I'm now even going to do more strategic behavior

00:59:46.740 and pull the rauke out under the production economy,

00:59:51.740 which is a form of neo-feudalism,

00:59:53.960 that you have to pay a tax to the sovereign,

00:59:57.640 and there's an aristocracy and then there's a non-aristocracy.

01:00:05.240 Well, we're going.

01:00:06.200 That's what I mean by public without a passport.

01:00:08.860 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:00:10.060 And so, and here we are, here we are.

01:00:12.520 Okay, so detail out for me and for the Canadians

01:00:15.440 and everyone who's listening,

01:00:16.900 what you think exactly, what the hell is Trump up to?

01:00:19.840 I mean, he's put a knot in Canadians' tail, 0.98

01:00:22.160 and the upside of that is that for the first time,

01:00:26.040 certainly in the Trudeau era,

01:00:27.620 even the liberals are pretending that they're patriots

01:00:30.580 and that Canada has a self-evident reason for existing,

01:00:34.840 which is something that Trudeau has formally denied for,

01:00:38.360 well, for the whole bulk of his political career,

01:00:40.800 that we were a post-national state with no real identity,

01:00:44.460 that our strength was our diversity,

01:00:47.520 that leg one, where we had some advantage,

01:00:50.940 was also, what, an untenable basis for movement into the future,

01:00:56.400 that we're going to enter into a green economy

01:00:59.040 that was going to magically make us rich.

01:01:00.980 And one of the things you're pointing out is,

01:01:02.620 yeah, good, there is a virtualized economy,

01:01:06.700 but we don't own any of it.

01:01:08.020 So, and, you know, when I looked at Carney's book recently,

01:01:11.080 Values, and he talks about this magical economy,

01:01:13.900 which I suppose, at least in part, is a knowledge economy

01:01:16.260 that's somehow going to emerge

01:01:17.480 if we leave 80% of our fossil fuels in the ground.

01:01:20.200 But you might say that it's a little short on detailed plan.

01:01:24.200 So, okay, so what's Trump exactly?

01:01:26.340 What do you think Trump is up to?

01:01:28.020 Yeah, I'm trying to spend most of my time with you today

01:01:31.720 characterizing what's going on.

01:01:33.460 I've only said one normative thing to date so far in this,

01:01:37.260 which was my belief in capitalism,

01:01:39.700 in a liberal democracy as the best way for human flourishing.

01:01:43.640 And I'm going to give you what I plan to be

01:01:46.320 only the second normative thing that I plan to say today,

01:01:49.780 that I think that Trump's behavior is unpresidential.

01:01:54.880 It's unprovoked.

01:01:56.920 It's unkind.

01:01:59.220 It's almost certainly illegal,

01:02:01.700 though hard to enforce.

01:02:06.460 Yeah, which matters.

01:02:08.120 But in the characterization,

01:02:09.460 I'm also going to say that I think he miscalculated

01:02:13.000 and it's actually been unwise

01:02:15.660 and is counterproductive to America's interests

01:02:18.800 and actually in Canada's interests if we seize it.

01:02:22.060 So I think this is a fascinating moment.

01:02:26.460 And to sort of, for Canada,

01:02:28.940 to quote the famous Yogi Berra,

01:02:32.600 when you reach a fork in the road,

01:02:34.060 you've got to take it.

01:02:35.200 Right.

01:02:35.760 And so Trump sees Mexico

01:02:41.400 as just a commodified labor

01:02:45.300 to lowest cost for blue collar,

01:02:47.980 Canada's to commodified labor at white collar workers.

01:02:53.180 And it's all got to be subsidized.

01:02:56.100 And so I actually think the appeasement,

01:03:00.160 there's a little bit of benefit

01:03:01.440 in appeasement and diplomacy

01:03:02.800 because you inform the US

01:03:06.800 that he may have to dial a few things back

01:03:10.580 a little bit

01:03:11.380 because it's counter to Americans' interests,

01:03:13.500 not because he's compassionate to Canada

01:03:17.020 economically or socially or security-wise.

01:03:21.160 But I think he's said what he is.

01:03:24.940 He believes that they are the empire,

01:03:28.840 that you must pay a tax for the privilege

01:03:32.640 of participating with the empire,

01:03:36.140 interrelating with the empire.

01:03:37.420 He wants to rename the Internal Revenue Service,

01:03:40.180 the External Revenue Service,

01:03:41.840 and that people's taxes domestically can go down in the US

01:03:45.440 and that it's paid for through tariffs.

01:03:48.460 And in economics,

01:03:51.000 in prosperity,

01:03:52.080 in a global system,

01:03:54.240 the number one objective

01:03:55.360 is to improve your terms of trade.

01:03:57.740 And terms of trade is really simple.

01:04:00.560 That it's the ratio of the price

01:04:02.960 of what you sell to what you buy.

01:04:04.960 And if you get a better price for what you sell,

01:04:06.900 your terms of trade go up.

01:04:08.760 If you pay more for something that you buy,

01:04:10.940 your terms of trade go down.

01:04:12.400 And that's the whole game,

01:04:13.780 is terms of trade.

01:04:15.140 And we thought that it was about

01:04:18.000 comparative advantage,

01:04:19.360 get out of the way. 0.53

01:04:20.400 And America realized

01:04:21.840 that it's about inserting the rent stuff

01:04:24.420 where you get really high rents,

01:04:26.360 which means that drives up your GDP per capita

01:04:28.460 through higher terms of trade.

01:04:30.220 And so their thinking is that

01:04:32.800 I'm going to make you pay to come in here. 1.00

01:04:35.100 That's going to enhance the prices we get.

01:04:39.300 And we believe that's going to deflate your currency

01:04:42.180 because it makes you,

01:04:43.740 and deflation of a currency

01:04:45.340 is like a pay decrease.

01:04:48.460 Because it buys less.

01:04:50.020 And you sell it for less too.

01:04:53.020 Right.

01:04:53.620 So that worsens your terms of trade,

01:04:55.640 which benefits America's terms of trade.

01:04:58.100 So they're trying to shift the structure

01:04:59.680 of the global economic system

01:05:01.660 where they become effectively,

01:05:04.560 aristocratic and everyone else

01:05:06.080 is some lower economic status entity.

01:05:10.480 And that is an economic logic

01:05:13.160 being played out to Mexico and Canada.

01:05:18.040 The tricky part is

01:05:19.380 there's not a lot more blood

01:05:20.840 to get out of the stone that is Mexico.

01:05:22.800 I think there is a legitimate security thing

01:05:26.500 that they're paying attention to.

01:05:28.860 With regards to the border?

01:05:30.180 Yeah.

01:05:30.440 And there's probably a couple

01:05:31.640 little strategic things they want

01:05:33.180 in the economy.

01:05:35.220 Access to the oil system

01:05:36.780 and owning it and so on.

01:05:38.400 But there's a lot of blood

01:05:39.960 to get from the Canadian prosperity

01:05:42.360 because we're a relatively prosperous

01:05:43.940 and rich country,

01:05:45.760 eroding as we are.

01:05:47.120 There's a lot of gems in there to get.

01:05:48.940 So I think his objective,

01:05:50.140 if you weaken it enough,

01:05:51.700 you go in for the gems

01:05:52.940 and you hold it in a subordinate position.

01:05:54.760 Because that's the economic logic

01:05:56.900 that is at play here.

01:05:58.300 So it's a dominance logic fundamentally.

01:06:00.280 Yeah, it's an economic insecurity

01:06:02.000 dominance logic.

01:06:03.600 Okay, but you pointed out

01:06:05.480 that it may well have a paradoxical effect.

01:06:09.200 So let's go into that.

01:06:10.480 I mean, one of the things I've noticed

01:06:11.780 because I'm very ambivalent

01:06:12.920 about Trump's maneuvers 0.98

01:06:14.740 because, well, he is a bull

01:06:16.540 in the China show.

01:06:17.160 I'm angry about them.

01:06:17.860 Yeah, yeah.

01:06:18.380 I'm angry about them.

01:06:19.280 Yeah, right.

01:06:19.600 I wake up angry on it

01:06:20.740 because I feel it's wrong

01:06:24.580 at so many levels.

01:06:25.400 So that's my second normative thing.

01:06:27.340 I'll shed it.

01:06:28.700 Now, you be a clinical psychologist,

01:06:30.360 make me feel a little better

01:06:31.340 and I'm bothered by it.

01:06:33.060 And I think it's going to hurt

01:06:34.440 one in four people.

01:06:36.120 What about the one in four people

01:06:37.400 that have food insecurity? 0.96

01:06:39.160 Like, for goodness sakes,

01:06:40.360 people need food and a home.

01:06:42.580 And now, really,

01:06:44.820 and you're going to erode

01:06:45.860 the whole system,

01:06:46.720 hurt Canada comparatively more, 0.90

01:06:48.580 still hurt America,

01:06:49.600 and vulnerable people

01:06:50.960 are going to pay

01:06:51.480 the largest price.

01:06:53.080 Because what?

01:06:55.260 Because that's how

01:06:56.440 the aristocracy works

01:06:57.660 and let them eat cake.

01:06:59.740 And yeah, as a proud Canadian

01:07:02.320 and somebody that believes in,

01:07:04.960 you know, my dad was an electrician.

01:07:07.460 I mean, these structures,

01:07:09.120 I wouldn't have gone to school.

01:07:10.080 I wouldn't have had this.

01:07:11.480 Yeah, it violates all sense

01:07:13.020 of fairness for me.

01:07:14.020 So that part of it

01:07:15.080 is not cool by me.

01:07:17.500 But yeah, we'll go into

01:07:18.360 the misplay handbook.

01:07:19.260 I would like to know

01:07:20.260 partly, for example,

01:07:21.380 why you are a proud Canadian,

01:07:22.840 why you've stayed here,

01:07:23.660 because you didn't have to.

01:07:25.280 And so, and why you think

01:07:26.620 this country is worth

01:07:27.400 fighting for.

01:07:28.080 And then I also want to know

01:07:29.460 what you think about the fact

01:07:31.320 that Trump's,

01:07:32.680 Trump,

01:07:33.060 tromping around has actually

01:07:35.340 seemed to wake Canadians

01:07:36.380 up a bit to help them

01:07:38.080 understand once again

01:07:39.060 that they do in fact

01:07:39.960 have a country,

01:07:40.800 that it might be worth

01:07:41.800 preserving,

01:07:42.420 that we should pay attention

01:07:43.360 not only to the resource economy,

01:07:45.520 which we've done

01:07:46.260 everything to scuttle,

01:07:47.560 but that we should maybe

01:07:48.480 wake up with regard to,

01:07:50.140 well, these more sophisticated

01:07:51.180 issues that you've been

01:07:52.580 bringing to light.

01:07:53.720 Okay, so let's start

01:07:54.580 with your feelings

01:07:55.320 about Canada.

01:07:57.080 Well, it's a beautiful country.

01:07:58.560 How can you not love

01:07:59.400 the country?

01:07:59.960 I mean,

01:08:00.580 just because I love it

01:08:02.220 doesn't mean I always like it.

01:08:03.660 Yeah.

01:08:04.260 And those are different things.

01:08:05.120 But you have chosen

01:08:05.720 to stay here

01:08:06.400 and keep your operations.

01:08:07.720 And I've doubled down,

01:08:08.760 of course, yeah,

01:08:09.480 yeah, of course, yeah.

01:08:10.260 This is my team,

01:08:11.680 this is my country,

01:08:12.500 this is my home.

01:08:14.300 Your job,

01:08:15.540 it's given me so much

01:08:17.260 and as you said,

01:08:19.800 you know,

01:08:20.160 your obligation

01:08:21.120 is to carry the load

01:08:21.900 you think you can handle.

01:08:23.260 Yeah.

01:08:23.460 So, you carry the load

01:08:25.420 that you think is yours

01:08:26.480 that you can bring to bear

01:08:28.340 and there's beautiful people

01:08:29.420 who volunteer at food banks,

01:08:31.820 who do many wonderful things

01:08:34.320 in this country,

01:08:35.300 healthcare workers

01:08:36.060 who care for vulnerable

01:08:37.000 and on and on it goes.

01:08:39.280 And so, I think...

01:08:40.000 Yeah, well,

01:08:40.320 and you've poured your efforts

01:08:41.360 into developing

01:08:42.140 the tech economy

01:08:44.220 in the Waterloo area.

01:08:45.320 Yeah, yeah.

01:08:45.480 And my brother-in-law,

01:08:46.460 who's like a tech maven,

01:08:47.800 he thinks that the graduate,

01:08:49.640 engineer graduates

01:08:50.200 from this institute

01:08:51.260 in particular

01:08:51.800 are like world top rate.

01:08:54.020 And so, like,

01:08:55.520 you've put your money

01:08:56.560 where your mouth is.

01:08:57.560 Yeah, it's very rewarding.

01:08:58.360 It's very meaningful.

01:08:58.920 It's a shame

01:08:59.800 to see it sub-optimized,

01:09:01.780 but do you let the bullies

01:09:03.540 and the elite failure

01:09:05.340 of the last 30 years prevail

01:09:06.820 when there are so many good people

01:09:08.380 who are trying to advocate

01:09:09.480 for a better country

01:09:11.100 and a better future?

01:09:12.780 And if I can provide

01:09:13.740 some resources

01:09:14.420 and air cover for them

01:09:15.620 as opposed to

01:09:16.600 abandoning them,

01:09:18.060 well, morally,

01:09:19.380 what do you think

01:09:19.820 is the right thing to do?

01:09:20.900 Right.

01:09:21.380 And hence this discussion.

01:09:22.920 Okay, so now let's look forward.

01:09:25.200 Let's look now

01:09:26.000 and forward a little bit.

01:09:27.220 And so,

01:09:28.200 as we speak virtually,

01:09:30.660 the Liberal Party,

01:09:31.900 which is...

01:09:32.220 So we're talking about Trump,

01:09:33.340 his miscalculation.

01:09:35.040 Yeah, yes.

01:09:35.280 I've never...

01:09:36.220 Yeah, I didn't answer that yet.

01:09:37.600 I didn't answer that yet

01:09:38.620 because we split two apart.

01:09:40.320 Okay.

01:09:40.520 Here.

01:09:40.640 I think Trump has made

01:09:42.560 a strategic mistake

01:09:43.880 because America's got

01:09:47.080 an unbelievable deal

01:09:48.560 from Canada

01:09:49.160 and as they got

01:09:50.700 this exfiltration

01:09:52.180 of our best graduates

01:09:55.100 tend to leave

01:09:56.000 in droves

01:09:56.800 from places like Waterloo

01:09:58.080 to Silicon Valley

01:09:59.680 adding to the trillions

01:10:00.660 of market cap.

01:10:02.100 Our best ideas

01:10:03.340 invariably are taken

01:10:04.960 by U.S. companies

01:10:05.960 where they own them

01:10:07.220 and commercialize them.

01:10:08.220 Our best resources

01:10:09.680 like Alberta oil

01:10:11.520 is overwhelmingly

01:10:12.500 shipped raw

01:10:13.700 to America

01:10:17.540 where it's value added

01:10:18.740 and sold back here.

01:10:20.540 American companies

01:10:21.500 come to Canada

01:10:22.900 basically get monopolies

01:10:25.860 for what they sell here

01:10:26.780 in various technologies

01:10:27.920 and products

01:10:28.520 and pharmaceuticals.

01:10:30.160 So it's already

01:10:30.720 a pretty good deal

01:10:31.400 for the U.S.

01:10:31.960 It's an amazing deal

01:10:32.760 and then they don't have

01:10:34.720 to pay taxes here

01:10:35.740 and the wealth effects

01:10:36.560 aren't shared here.

01:10:37.560 So America has got

01:10:38.920 a great deal from Canada

01:10:40.440 an unbelievable deal

01:10:42.000 and Canada says

01:10:43.860 thank you for that

01:10:44.720 would you like fries

01:10:45.480 with this?

01:10:46.540 And that's because

01:10:47.920 of this inattention

01:10:48.740 that we've talked about

01:10:49.580 in the second leg

01:10:50.380 and the frog

01:10:53.020 has been cooking

01:10:53.580 one degree at a time

01:10:54.640 for Canada

01:10:55.180 over 30 years

01:10:56.140 and a shrewd person

01:10:57.960 would have said

01:10:58.340 let's keep this game going

01:10:59.840 let's maybe turn

01:11:01.660 the degree

01:11:02.660 up two degrees

01:11:03.700 at a time

01:11:04.260 but don't turn it

01:11:05.740 up too much

01:11:06.640 that you freak out

01:11:07.440 the frog

01:11:07.820 and it jumps out

01:11:08.400 of the pot

01:11:08.820 and I think

01:11:10.520 Trump thought

01:11:11.840 he had such

01:11:12.580 dominance

01:11:13.620 it was kind of like

01:11:14.780 the Russians

01:11:15.220 with the Ukrainians

01:11:16.240 that they would

01:11:17.160 just submit

01:11:17.780 and what Trump

01:11:19.620 has done

01:11:19.980 has been so extreme

01:11:22.080 so out of line

01:11:23.760 that he's actually

01:11:25.500 woken up Canadians

01:11:26.420 to say

01:11:27.000 we're better than this

01:11:28.420 we're capable

01:11:29.020 of being more sovereign

01:11:30.260 we're capable

01:11:30.840 of being more prosperous

01:11:32.460 I'm not going to take it

01:11:34.260 I'm not going to submit

01:11:35.320 I'm going to invest

01:11:36.620 I'm going to start

01:11:37.520 to think about this

01:11:38.680 wake up

01:11:39.320 and actually

01:11:40.680 Canadians will start 0.87

01:11:41.740 to get their fair deal

01:11:43.140 in this changed economy

01:11:44.300 with an updated

01:11:45.540 sense of thinking

01:11:46.600 that could happen

01:11:48.200 well that's the fork

01:11:49.300 in the road

01:11:49.760 so do they submit

01:11:51.780 and become a subordinate

01:11:53.140 Puerto Rico

01:11:53.800 without a passport

01:11:54.560 or do they respond

01:11:56.620 and build the capacity

01:11:57.840 to vision

01:11:59.500 and work towards

01:12:01.040 an appropriate

01:12:02.160 standing and future

01:12:03.200 for the country

01:12:03.840 in this changed world

01:12:04.880 and I think

01:12:06.660 that potential

01:12:08.120 of the latter one

01:12:10.120 is there

01:12:10.760 and before us

01:12:11.720 I'm going to bring

01:12:12.560 all I can to bear

01:12:13.720 in encouraging

01:12:15.540 and supporting

01:12:16.140 that potential

01:12:16.840 but it's not certain

01:12:18.720 that that's going to happen

01:12:19.800 it's very clear

01:12:20.920 what Trump's going to do

01:12:22.080 he's not going to back off

01:12:23.700 no

01:12:23.960 he's not a back off

01:12:25.620 sort of guy

01:12:25.920 it's his orthodoxy

01:12:28.900 he's more locked

01:12:30.740 in that orthodoxy

01:12:31.680 than we were

01:12:32.340 in our 30 years

01:12:33.320 of hands off

01:12:34.300 in spite of all the facts

01:12:35.480 that came at it

01:12:36.180 I think it's going to take

01:12:37.420 he's just going to keep

01:12:38.440 tweaking it

01:12:39.060 but he's already done

01:12:40.520 the damage

01:12:40.980 because the law

01:12:42.320 doesn't apply anymore

01:12:43.360 he says you can't

01:12:44.300 have access to the US market

01:12:45.480 so move your factories here

01:12:46.680 nobody's going to do

01:12:47.700 a press release

01:12:48.280 that says I'm moving

01:12:49.120 my factory in the middle

01:12:50.400 of the night

01:12:50.780 to the US

01:12:51.340 the damage is done

01:12:52.840 for Canada

01:12:53.860 in this current system

01:12:55.560 he barely needs

01:12:56.980 to put tariffs

01:12:57.540 on it anymore

01:12:58.260 just the threat

01:12:59.260 of it is de facto

01:13:00.120 in the business realities

01:13:02.740 so the big question

01:13:05.760 is what is Canada

01:13:06.820 going to do

01:13:08.500 in that response

01:13:09.300 to that fork in the road

01:13:10.300 and if we take

01:13:11.780 the higher potential route

01:13:13.140 we will have

01:13:14.080 a much better future

01:13:15.320 granted a bumpy

01:13:16.660 interim phase

01:13:17.620 and that goes

01:13:20.420 to the point of leadership

01:13:21.320 that you were

01:13:21.820 okay

01:13:22.140 well let's turn to that

01:13:24.020 so we're at the dawn

01:13:25.680 of a transformation

01:13:26.960 in the Canadian political scene

01:13:28.500 at least in principle

01:13:29.480 we have the spectacle

01:13:31.080 of new leadership

01:13:32.340 arising

01:13:32.980 after Trudeau

01:13:35.300 on the Liberal side

01:13:36.260 it looks

01:13:37.360 it's the day before

01:13:38.500 the leadership

01:13:39.080 race

01:13:40.120 for the Liberals

01:13:41.120 finalizes

01:13:41.760 and the heir presumptive

01:13:43.300 is clearly

01:13:44.200 Mark Carney

01:13:44.920 and

01:13:45.820 well

01:13:47.520 I finished

01:13:48.600 reading

01:13:49.200 and analyzing

01:13:50.200 rather deeply

01:13:51.000 I would say

01:13:51.740 Mark Carney's

01:13:52.800 value books

01:13:53.420 and value book

01:13:54.980 which Canadians

01:13:55.700 should know about

01:13:56.580 and read even

01:13:57.660 especially the first couple

01:13:59.100 and last couple

01:13:59.900 of chapters

01:14:00.480 and

01:14:00.920 I've got some questions

01:14:02.880 about that

01:14:03.580 that maybe you can

01:14:04.560 help me sort through

01:14:05.460 so

01:14:06.460 one of the things

01:14:07.520 that Mr. Carney

01:14:08.240 says in his

01:14:09.180 book

01:14:09.740 after outlining

01:14:11.860 what he thinks

01:14:12.500 Canadians shared values

01:14:13.900 are

01:14:14.580 which

01:14:15.060 is a very dubious

01:14:16.580 what would you say

01:14:18.600 he makes a very dubious

01:14:20.120 set of arguments

01:14:21.020 which

01:14:21.760 for reasons

01:14:22.400 that I'll go into

01:14:23.160 but

01:14:23.440 one of his

01:14:24.260 more

01:14:24.680 remarkable claims

01:14:26.120 is

01:14:26.540 relevant to our

01:14:28.120 discussion of

01:14:28.780 these two legs

01:14:29.740 okay

01:14:30.780 so

01:14:31.160 we haven't done

01:14:32.600 too badly

01:14:33.080 on the resource

01:14:33.820 and manufacturing side

01:14:35.000 even though

01:14:35.420 that's dated

01:14:36.140 we need to

01:14:37.300 maintain

01:14:37.720 what we have there

01:14:38.840 and we need to

01:14:39.880 develop this other

01:14:40.680 attitude

01:14:41.380 but

01:14:41.700 one of the things

01:14:42.800 Carney says

01:14:43.360 very forthrightly

01:14:44.340 is that all of our

01:14:45.060 financial institutions

01:14:46.100 are going to have to be

01:14:46.940 retooled

01:14:47.440 relationship

01:14:48.340 to the catastrophe

01:14:49.640 of climate change

01:14:50.960 and that 80%

01:14:51.900 of the fossil fuels

01:14:53.560 that are part of

01:14:54.440 what fuels

01:14:54.880 Canada's economy

01:14:55.740 are going to have to

01:14:56.740 stay in the ground

01:14:57.520 and so

01:14:58.420 Carney

01:14:59.180 is planning

01:15:00.240 to continue

01:15:01.080 the terrible

01:15:02.120 pressure

01:15:02.620 that

01:15:03.100 Trudeau

01:15:03.760 has put on

01:15:04.460 Canada's

01:15:04.980 traditional economy

01:15:06.080 and to

01:15:06.680 magnify that

01:15:07.760 because he's a much

01:15:08.500 more effective

01:15:09.240 administrator

01:15:09.940 and manager

01:15:10.920 than Trudeau

01:15:12.040 and there's

01:15:12.980 nothing

01:15:13.540 there's not

01:15:14.440 anything

01:15:15.340 in his book

01:15:16.160 not one word

01:15:17.540 that deals

01:15:18.320 with any of the

01:15:18.980 things that

01:15:19.440 you've discussed

01:15:20.440 today

01:15:20.840 and so

01:15:21.680 what we have

01:15:22.820 in the spectacle

01:15:23.420 of Carney

01:15:24.000 is someone

01:15:24.480 who thinks

01:15:25.000 that the

01:15:25.980 economy

01:15:26.340 that we

01:15:26.800 already have

01:15:27.600 has to be

01:15:28.300 replaced by

01:15:28.940 some magical

01:15:29.600 new economy

01:15:30.280 that will

01:15:30.680 somehow be

01:15:31.200 both productive

01:15:32.180 and clean

01:15:32.760 and who says

01:15:33.640 who doesn't

01:15:34.480 seem to be

01:15:35.000 aware at all

01:15:36.120 of the

01:15:37.080 any of the

01:15:37.980 problems

01:15:38.600 that you've

01:15:39.280 described

01:15:39.780 conceptually

01:15:41.020 or practically

01:15:41.700 he doesn't

01:15:42.560 address the

01:15:43.140 fact of

01:15:43.780 Canada's

01:15:44.280 failing

01:15:44.620 productivity

01:15:45.580 it's

01:15:46.560 it's a

01:15:47.120 it's as

01:15:47.760 hollow and

01:15:48.380 empty a

01:15:48.840 book as

01:15:49.180 I've ever

01:15:49.580 had the

01:15:49.940 misfortune to

01:15:50.660 read

01:15:50.960 and so

01:15:51.680 that seems

01:15:52.680 to be

01:15:53.100 but the

01:15:53.840 problem is

01:15:54.580 and this

01:15:55.200 is maybe

01:15:56.580 somewhat

01:15:57.040 contrary to

01:15:57.800 your

01:15:57.960 proclamation

01:15:58.400 that

01:15:58.900 Trump's

01:16:00.680 maneuvering

01:16:02.480 has been

01:16:02.820 counterproductive

01:16:03.580 is Canadians 0.97

01:16:04.480 seem to be

01:16:05.300 rallying behind

01:16:07.180 the liberals

01:16:07.760 they had

01:16:08.240 they were

01:16:09.120 cataclysmically

01:16:10.160 low in the

01:16:10.740 polls and now

01:16:11.440 they're at

01:16:12.100 something approaching

01:16:12.900 parity

01:16:13.400 and so

01:16:14.340 well that's

01:16:15.000 the spectacle

01:16:15.520 on the

01:16:15.880 Carney side

01:16:16.480 and then

01:16:16.880 well we

01:16:17.620 have as

01:16:18.000 the primary

01:16:18.940 alternative

01:16:19.580 to that

01:16:20.100 Pierre

01:16:20.420 Polyev

01:16:20.940 and the

01:16:21.400 conservatives

01:16:21.880 and so

01:16:22.480 well enough

01:16:23.380 of a rant

01:16:23.920 on Carney

01:16:24.460 from me

01:16:25.040 I'm curious

01:16:26.040 as to

01:16:26.560 you're not

01:16:27.100 a particularly

01:16:27.660 partisan person

01:16:28.760 from what I've

01:16:29.720 observed

01:16:30.180 you are more

01:16:31.580 comfortable in

01:16:32.260 the realm of

01:16:32.780 concept and idea

01:16:33.820 and practicalities

01:16:34.800 and so

01:16:35.180 I'm very curious

01:16:36.380 about how you

01:16:38.180 see the current

01:16:39.000 situation

01:16:39.700 with regard to

01:16:41.040 Canadian

01:16:41.360 leadership

01:16:41.680 I don't belong

01:16:42.760 to any party

01:16:43.280 and I've given

01:16:43.740 no money

01:16:44.120 to either

01:16:44.460 party

01:16:44.780 and one thing

01:16:46.960 we haven't put

01:16:47.580 on the table

01:16:48.120 which is very

01:16:48.740 important in our

01:16:50.040 structural conversation

01:16:51.220 we talked about

01:16:52.340 the knowledge-based

01:16:53.020 economy of IP

01:16:53.940 and that's

01:16:54.940 followed by a

01:16:55.640 data-driven economy

01:16:56.640 that's data

01:16:57.540 and AI

01:16:58.140 and that that

01:16:59.740 has become this

01:17:00.580 new factor

01:17:01.220 of productivity

01:17:02.100 where it's

01:17:03.480 replacing the human

01:17:04.460 it's controlling

01:17:05.400 the human

01:17:05.940 and that's

01:17:07.180 turbocharged this

01:17:08.700 era of intangibles

01:17:09.760 which is

01:17:10.440 intellectual property

01:17:12.040 knowledge and

01:17:12.540 closure

01:17:12.900 and then data

01:17:14.160 and AI

01:17:14.580 which is

01:17:15.300 the control

01:17:17.480 of this factor

01:17:18.120 of production

01:17:18.640 which is really

01:17:19.720 changing everything

01:17:21.020 and also by the way

01:17:22.720 the largest filing

01:17:23.940 of IP

01:17:25.360 is in AI

01:17:26.020 with 1.5 million

01:17:27.480 patents granted

01:17:28.340 to date

01:17:29.500 and that's very

01:17:30.000 important as I

01:17:30.660 critique these

01:17:31.340 two political

01:17:32.980 options for Canada

01:17:33.780 that we have to

01:17:34.380 when you talk about

01:17:35.360 the things I talk about

01:17:36.060 we haven't

01:17:37.420 fully unpacked

01:17:38.180 AI

01:17:38.540 and how it's

01:17:40.700 replacing human

01:17:41.420 capacity

01:17:41.920 and augmenting

01:17:42.540 human capacity

01:17:43.540 but I think

01:17:44.340 everyone agrees

01:17:44.880 it's a monster

01:17:45.660 factor of production

01:17:46.720 it's changing

01:17:47.600 all the rules

01:17:48.260 it's putting

01:17:49.020 trillions of dollars

01:17:49.760 in the economy

01:17:50.440 it's going to

01:17:50.940 change the white 0.81

01:17:51.580 color economy

01:17:52.240 completely

01:17:52.500 and you gotta

01:17:53.080 have something

01:17:55.360 something there

01:17:56.020 so that's fine

01:17:57.900 okay so

01:17:58.520 you mentioned

01:17:59.760 about Carney

01:18:00.320 then you mentioned

01:18:00.860 about Polly

01:18:01.460 and I did too

01:18:02.960 read his book

01:18:03.840 because I'm interested

01:18:05.140 in public policy

01:18:06.120 as people

01:18:07.360 you've mentioned

01:18:08.080 you and I

01:18:08.780 are active

01:18:09.220 in Washington

01:18:10.940 I'm active

01:18:11.440 in Brussels

01:18:11.960 and I'm also

01:18:12.600 active nationally

01:18:13.900 and subnationally

01:18:15.640 in Canada

01:18:18.180 well subnationally

01:18:19.000 provincially

01:18:19.320 and I

01:18:20.600 absolutely

01:18:21.720 see myself

01:18:22.620 as a Canadian

01:18:23.200 and I always

01:18:23.960 think of

01:18:24.360 Canada

01:18:24.760 when I

01:18:26.640 try to

01:18:27.520 engage in

01:18:28.440 these things

01:18:28.880 and I'm

01:18:29.560 a passionate

01:18:29.980 Canadian

01:18:30.380 so

01:18:31.140 a couple

01:18:34.240 three things

01:18:34.740 in Carney

01:18:35.140 he's positioning

01:18:36.540 himself

01:18:37.020 as an outsider

01:18:38.520 when he's been

01:18:39.620 an advisor

01:18:40.560 to Trudeau

01:18:41.340 since

01:18:41.840 2020

01:18:43.340 and he's chairman

01:18:44.220 of his economic

01:18:44.960 task force

01:18:46.160 but most importantly

01:18:47.560 he's been

01:18:48.160 so he's not

01:18:48.740 an outsider

01:18:49.380 well most importantly

01:18:50.360 he's been a charter

01:18:51.400 member

01:18:51.900 of the orthodoxy

01:18:53.760 of Ottawa

01:18:54.760 for decades

01:18:55.640 so all this

01:18:56.840 thinking structure

01:18:57.760 and I'm going

01:18:59.260 to get very

01:18:59.940 specific on

01:19:00.800 how Bank of Canada

01:19:02.180 has been

01:19:02.580 a central

01:19:03.620 actor

01:19:03.980 in selling

01:19:04.460 Canada

01:19:04.840 short

01:19:05.280 in these

01:19:06.300 decades

01:19:06.740 because they've

01:19:07.520 been the

01:19:07.820 keepers

01:19:08.200 of this

01:19:08.500 orthodoxy

01:19:09.320 and he's

01:19:10.400 been a central

01:19:11.200 as governor

01:19:11.840 of Sancredo

01:19:12.300 Bank

01:19:12.660 he's been

01:19:13.500 prior to that

01:19:14.520 he was in

01:19:14.900 Finance Canada

01:19:15.720 he's been

01:19:16.480 advised

01:19:16.800 so he's

01:19:17.300 he's got to

01:19:18.480 own

01:19:18.860 the Ottawa

01:19:19.700 thinking

01:19:20.460 right

01:19:20.660 and not as

01:19:21.180 a follower

01:19:21.660 but as an

01:19:22.260 architect

01:19:22.540 an architect

01:19:23.000 right

01:19:23.500 so here's

01:19:25.120 the two

01:19:25.900 or three

01:19:26.180 things

01:19:26.700 on

01:19:27.840 Carney

01:19:29.380 Mark Carney's

01:19:30.840 book that I

01:19:31.840 read

01:19:32.120 one he talks

01:19:33.280 a lot about

01:19:33.900 pricing carbon

01:19:34.880 to affect

01:19:36.540 transition

01:19:37.080 and and then

01:19:39.180 he's come out

01:19:39.820 with his

01:19:40.220 his new

01:19:41.760 policies to

01:19:42.920 subsidize things

01:19:43.780 like heat

01:19:44.880 exchangers

01:19:45.560 and various

01:19:47.160 forms of

01:19:47.680 technology to

01:19:48.640 green your

01:19:49.660 homes and

01:19:50.140 stuff very

01:19:50.580 specifically

01:19:51.100 and so

01:19:53.500 what happens

01:19:54.560 is that

01:19:55.140 when you

01:19:55.800 look at

01:19:56.200 Canada

01:19:56.640 it's good

01:19:58.220 terms of

01:19:58.820 trade I

01:19:59.260 explained

01:19:59.640 terms of

01:20:00.060 trade earlier

01:20:00.600 it's best

01:20:01.480 terms of

01:20:01.920 trade are

01:20:02.400 in energy

01:20:02.940 that's where

01:20:04.120 we get

01:20:04.380 good money

01:20:05.140 that's where

01:20:06.340 it pays

01:20:06.940 for the

01:20:07.260 country

01:20:07.600 our weakest

01:20:09.340 terms

01:20:09.620 energy

01:20:09.980 defined

01:20:10.440 primarily

01:20:11.220 on the

01:20:11.880 fossil fuel

01:20:12.500 side

01:20:12.740 hydrocarbons

01:20:13.400 we're not

01:20:13.940 talking about

01:20:14.560 the renewable

01:20:15.200 side

01:20:15.920 hydrocarbons

01:20:16.800 hydrocarbons

01:20:17.460 yeah

01:20:18.220 import

01:20:19.240 or sorry

01:20:19.920 consumption

01:20:20.400 and export

01:20:21.440 of hydrocarbons

01:20:22.300 overwhelmingly

01:20:23.600 pays for

01:20:24.160 this country

01:20:24.540 when a

01:20:27.080 woman faces

01:20:27.720 an unexpected

01:20:28.480 pregnancy

01:20:29.020 she often

01:20:29.920 feels overwhelmed

01:20:30.820 and alone

01:20:31.360 many initially

01:20:32.500 consider abortion

01:20:33.320 their only

01:20:33.820 option

01:20:34.200 but thanks

01:20:35.060 to donors

01:20:35.420 like you

01:20:35.900 these women 0.99

01:20:36.360 may find

01:20:36.840 their way

01:20:37.120 to a

01:20:37.400 pre-born

01:20:37.760 network

01:20:38.120 clinic

01:20:38.540 where they

01:20:39.040 receive

01:20:39.380 the support

01:20:39.880 that they

01:20:40.180 need

01:20:40.480 to make

01:20:40.840 an informed

01:20:41.220 choice

01:20:41.540 about their

01:20:41.880 pregnancy

01:20:42.280 at pre-born

01:20:43.520 women are 1.00

01:20:44.100 offered

01:20:44.380 compassionate

01:20:44.900 care

01:20:45.260 and a

01:20:45.560 free

01:20:45.740 ultrasound

01:20:46.220 that allows

01:20:46.780 them to

01:20:47.140 see their

01:20:47.420 developing

01:20:47.800 baby

01:20:48.160 this

01:20:48.800 combination

01:20:49.180 of support

01:20:49.800 and information

01:20:50.420 helps many

01:20:51.000 women choose 0.99

01:20:51.500 to continue

01:20:51.960 their pregnancies

01:20:52.700 there are many

01:20:53.480 women out there 1.00

01:20:54.080 who are unaware

01:20:54.620 of their options

01:20:55.420 take acacia for

01:20:56.380 example acacia

01:20:57.540 discovered that

01:20:58.160 she was pregnant

01:20:58.700 and felt completely

01:20:59.440 overwhelmed and

01:21:00.140 unsure about

01:21:00.560 which way to

01:21:01.020 turn

01:21:01.300 she found her

01:21:02.220 way to a

01:21:02.640 pre-born

01:21:02.980 network clinic

01:21:03.620 where the

01:21:03.920 staff provided

01:21:04.520 her with 0.76

01:21:04.860 supportive care

01:21:05.520 and a free

01:21:06.040 ultrasound

01:21:06.500 seeing her

01:21:07.380 developing baby

01:21:08.160 on the screen

01:21:08.840 helped acacia

01:21:09.600 make the decision

01:21:10.280 to continue

01:21:10.780 with her

01:21:11.120 pregnancy

01:21:11.500 with your

01:21:12.360 tax-deductible

01:21:13.160 donation of

01:21:13.760 twenty eight

01:21:14.200 dollars

01:21:14.560 you can help

01:21:15.580 provide one

01:21:16.200 ultrasound for

01:21:16.880 someone facing

01:21:17.420 a difficult

01:21:17.880 decision

01:21:18.340 your contribution

01:21:19.360 of any amount

01:21:20.100 can make a real

01:21:20.640 difference

01:21:21.080 last year alone

01:21:21.960 pre-born saw

01:21:22.600 67,000 babies

01:21:23.860 saved from

01:21:24.400 abortion

01:21:24.800 if you'd like

01:21:25.600 to support

01:21:26.020 this work

01:21:26.540 please consider

01:21:27.320 making a

01:21:27.740 donation today

01:21:28.500 just dial

01:21:29.180 pound 250

01:21:29.820 and say the

01:21:30.440 keyword baby

01:21:31.220 that's pound 250

01:21:32.460 baby

01:21:33.040 or go to

01:21:33.880 preborn.com

01:21:34.720 slash jordan

01:21:35.460 that's

01:21:36.100 preborn.com

01:21:37.000 slash jordan

01:21:38.100 right so

01:21:42.340 we have a

01:21:42.820 fossil fuel

01:21:43.460 economy in

01:21:44.200 large part

01:21:44.920 that's good

01:21:46.260 terms of

01:21:46.760 trade

01:21:47.160 yes okay

01:21:48.160 on the good

01:21:48.640 terms of

01:21:49.100 trade

01:21:49.320 I'm speaking

01:21:50.360 technically

01:21:50.900 yeah okay

01:21:51.580 we have a

01:21:53.440 deficit in

01:21:54.200 intellectual

01:21:54.600 property

01:21:55.160 we have a

01:21:56.140 we have

01:21:56.500 we're

01:21:56.760 and that

01:21:58.000 would be

01:21:58.240 much more

01:21:58.860 if we

01:21:59.320 included

01:21:59.820 data and

01:22:01.020 AI

01:22:01.320 and we're

01:22:02.420 major

01:22:03.120 importers

01:22:03.840 of intellectual

01:22:05.420 property and

01:22:06.120 technology

01:22:06.660 products

01:22:07.200 so we have

01:22:08.080 poor terms

01:22:08.920 of trade

01:22:09.440 in the

01:22:11.280 technology arena

01:22:11.960 in spite of

01:22:12.540 all the things

01:22:13.040 we invent

01:22:13.600 the smart

01:22:14.340 people

01:22:14.780 the government

01:22:15.660 funding over

01:22:16.440 decades

01:22:16.980 and the

01:22:17.640 effectiveness

01:22:18.140 of that

01:22:18.720 even

01:22:18.940 well that's

01:22:19.500 the issue

01:22:19.920 is we're

01:22:20.680 first world

01:22:21.260 in inputs

01:22:21.740 third world

01:22:22.460 in outcomes

01:22:23.100 right

01:22:23.880 and there's

01:22:24.300 not and

01:22:24.880 today in this

01:22:25.960 conversation

01:22:26.380 we're unpacking

01:22:27.080 why

01:22:27.580 yeah

01:22:27.980 but I'm

01:22:28.400 gonna go

01:22:28.740 I'm gonna

01:22:29.040 stay on this

01:22:29.560 orthodoxy

01:22:30.240 of Mr.

01:22:30.660 Carney

01:22:30.880 so we

01:22:32.440 have

01:22:32.840 very good

01:22:33.760 terms of

01:22:34.160 trade

01:22:34.540 in

01:22:35.100 hydrocarbons

01:22:36.020 very poor

01:22:37.400 terms of

01:22:38.340 trade

01:22:38.660 in

01:22:39.200 technology

01:22:41.520 products

01:22:42.140 yep

01:22:42.660 and so

01:22:43.740 his

01:22:44.200 proposition

01:22:45.200 is that

01:22:46.640 we tax

01:22:47.420 the

01:22:48.820 things that

01:22:49.980 we sell

01:22:50.600 and we

01:22:51.820 subsidize

01:22:52.560 the things

01:22:53.180 that we

01:22:54.080 buy

01:22:54.400 right

01:22:55.160 so if you

01:22:55.740 want to

01:22:56.020 affect a

01:22:56.500 green

01:22:56.920 transition

01:22:57.620 that's

01:22:58.740 and you

01:22:59.240 have this

01:22:59.660 structure

01:23:00.200 that's

01:23:01.040 called a

01:23:01.460 dichotomy

01:23:02.180 you have

01:23:03.060 to choose

01:23:03.640 between

01:23:04.240 the

01:23:05.440 economy

01:23:06.140 paying

01:23:06.960 for the

01:23:07.280 place

01:23:07.660 or

01:23:08.760 the

01:23:10.640 environment

01:23:10.940 in his

01:23:11.640 structural

01:23:12.260 view of

01:23:13.060 the world

01:23:13.400 of scarce

01:23:14.420 natural capital

01:23:15.440 that we have

01:23:15.860 to deal

01:23:16.120 with

01:23:16.400 and I'm

01:23:16.940 not making

01:23:17.240 a normative

01:23:17.720 comment

01:23:18.120 I'm just

01:23:18.500 talking

01:23:18.840 economically

01:23:19.560 here

01:23:19.920 okay

01:23:20.180 so his

01:23:21.300 prescription

01:23:21.980 will make

01:23:23.340 us poor

01:23:23.800 okay

01:23:25.160 okay so let

01:23:25.760 me take

01:23:26.060 that apart

01:23:26.480 because

01:23:26.800 you say

01:23:27.560 things so

01:23:28.200 calmly

01:23:28.720 when they're

01:23:29.980 actually

01:23:30.380 cataclysmic

01:23:31.300 that it's

01:23:31.720 hard to

01:23:32.060 get the

01:23:32.380 right

01:23:32.540 emotional

01:23:32.960 impact

01:23:33.480 so

01:23:33.740 this is

01:23:34.460 not

01:23:34.620 normative

01:23:35.060 this is

01:23:35.580 economics

01:23:36.300 101

01:23:37.520 yeah okay

01:23:38.260 okay so

01:23:39.000 the claim

01:23:39.740 that you're

01:23:40.080 making is

01:23:40.640 that the

01:23:41.720 best

01:23:42.220 the best

01:23:43.920 performance

01:23:44.640 that Canada

01:23:45.340 has managed

01:23:46.020 economically

01:23:46.760 is on the

01:23:47.680 hydrocarbon

01:23:48.280 side

01:23:48.680 correct

01:23:48.940 now Carney's

01:23:49.900 not very

01:23:50.240 happy about

01:23:50.800 the hydrocarbon

01:23:51.420 side because

01:23:52.000 of what he

01:23:52.760 describes as

01:23:53.380 externalities

01:23:54.140 let's say

01:23:54.560 carbon

01:23:54.860 well he

01:23:55.300 thinks they're

01:23:55.880 scarce and

01:23:56.320 have a

01:23:56.580 show capital

01:23:57.400 and he

01:23:58.360 wants to

01:23:59.000 transition to

01:23:59.860 a green

01:24:00.180 economy

01:24:00.500 right

01:24:00.760 right

01:24:01.060 which is

01:24:01.400 what we're

01:24:01.700 going to go

01:24:02.020 to the next

01:24:02.520 part of this

01:24:02.960 discussion

01:24:03.420 right okay

01:24:04.140 so but the

01:24:04.840 transition is

01:24:05.660 going to be

01:24:06.360 fostered in

01:24:07.280 principle by

01:24:08.120 making what

01:24:09.880 we're good at

01:24:10.680 far more

01:24:11.360 expensive

01:24:12.060 and thus

01:24:12.660 making what

01:24:13.400 we're bad

01:24:13.880 at cheaper

01:24:14.880 and thus

01:24:16.420 we'll import

01:24:17.120 what we're bad

01:24:17.800 at

01:24:18.160 right

01:24:18.460 and we'll

01:24:19.160 export

01:24:19.560 what we're

01:24:20.800 good at

01:24:21.100 that's right

01:24:21.520 right

01:24:21.840 which is a

01:24:22.500 path towards

01:24:23.680 40 cents to

01:24:25.220 the American

01:24:25.640 dollar in

01:24:26.260 terms of GDP

01:24:27.060 and he says

01:24:28.340 that will

01:24:28.920 lead to

01:24:29.720 a

01:24:30.240 an innovation

01:24:32.100 transition

01:24:33.000 and that is

01:24:34.000 true because

01:24:34.780 when you price

01:24:35.560 something you

01:24:36.640 signal to the

01:24:37.400 market bring in

01:24:38.980 something else

01:24:40.600 yeah

01:24:41.060 and that's

01:24:42.260 fine that will

01:24:43.200 affect a green

01:24:44.100 transition but

01:24:45.400 he's using a

01:24:46.440 closed economy

01:24:47.380 model right

01:24:48.980 that says Canada

01:24:49.820 will get its

01:24:50.460 fair share of

01:24:51.120 that transition

01:24:51.860 but it's

01:24:52.780 which we

01:24:53.220 haven't

01:24:53.840 we've had

01:24:54.300 decade

01:24:54.680 we've had

01:24:55.200 poll positions

01:24:56.940 in these

01:24:58.440 systems over

01:24:59.380 decades

01:24:59.840 we've got

01:25:00.660 really smart

01:25:01.200 people we've

01:25:01.940 invented really

01:25:02.540 good ideas

01:25:03.160 we spent

01:25:04.120 tens and tens

01:25:05.160 of billions

01:25:05.540 of dollars

01:25:06.080 and we have

01:25:07.200 ten cents on

01:25:08.100 the dollar

01:25:08.480 to show for

01:25:09.040 a dollar

01:25:09.540 and he has

01:25:11.680 nothing to

01:25:12.500 say about

01:25:13.420 how we're

01:25:13.820 going to

01:25:14.000 resolve that

01:25:14.500 come up

01:25:15.000 right so

01:25:15.960 how we're

01:25:16.320 going to

01:25:16.680 ensure for

01:25:17.260 example that

01:25:17.980 we own the

01:25:18.860 consequences

01:25:19.440 of all this

01:25:20.440 innovation

01:25:20.760 so we get

01:25:21.260 some of the

01:25:21.740 money for

01:25:22.180 our deficit

01:25:22.580 and in his

01:25:23.620 book he

01:25:24.860 has one

01:25:25.540 sentence on

01:25:26.440 IP right

01:25:28.900 near the end

01:25:29.460 says intellectual

01:25:30.680 property is

01:25:31.900 becoming increasingly

01:25:32.960 important to

01:25:34.360 companies and

01:25:35.100 therefore we

01:25:35.600 need to enforce

01:25:36.760 it better to

01:25:37.360 protect their

01:25:37.800 investments and

01:25:39.060 that's it

01:25:39.560 yeah that's a

01:25:41.020 drive by

01:25:41.940 nothing burger

01:25:43.260 in the most

01:25:44.740 structural change

01:25:45.820 that I talked

01:25:46.580 about happened

01:25:47.260 where he's been

01:25:47.980 a cent

01:25:48.260 so he's a

01:25:49.160 central actor

01:25:49.960 in in

01:25:51.080 attention to

01:25:51.980 intellectual

01:25:52.520 property

01:25:53.080 right right

01:25:53.920 so we need

01:25:54.380 we need to

01:25:54.780 drive that

01:25:55.280 point home

01:25:55.800 because when

01:25:56.940 I also think

01:25:57.580 this is true

01:25:58.260 with regards

01:25:59.460 to Carney's

01:26:00.300 positioning

01:26:00.740 internationally

01:26:01.440 as well

01:26:01.960 like Trudeau

01:26:03.180 has been

01:26:03.580 pushing a

01:26:04.520 green agenda

01:26:06.520 let's say

01:26:07.620 along with

01:26:08.720 Guilbeau

01:26:09.260 for 10 years

01:26:10.580 and he's

01:26:11.620 doing that

01:26:12.220 in the same

01:26:13.280 way that the

01:26:13.780 Europeans are

01:26:14.440 doing that

01:26:14.940 and he's

01:26:15.360 doing that in

01:26:16.040 the same way

01:26:16.580 that the

01:26:16.920 World Economic

01:26:17.600 Forum types

01:26:18.480 the Davos

01:26:19.120 intellectuals

01:26:20.240 quasi-intellectuals

01:26:21.540 are promoting

01:26:22.400 but my

01:26:23.300 sense of

01:26:23.860 Trudeau

01:26:24.220 and I

01:26:24.500 think this

01:26:24.900 is valid

01:26:25.360 is that

01:26:25.820 he is

01:26:26.680 nothing but

01:26:27.580 a follower

01:26:28.380 of those

01:26:29.100 ideas

01:26:29.580 but that's

01:26:30.460 not the

01:26:30.800 case with

01:26:31.280 Carney

01:26:31.620 Carney

01:26:32.360 is a

01:26:32.940 major

01:26:33.740 architect

01:26:34.400 and initiator

01:26:35.600 of such

01:26:36.020 ideas

01:26:36.440 and then

01:26:37.180 what

01:26:37.740 could be

01:26:38.540 but

01:26:38.960 but

01:26:39.740 whether

01:26:41.460 that's

01:26:41.980 a good

01:26:42.560 idea

01:26:42.880 or bad

01:26:43.720 he's

01:26:44.840 using

01:26:45.280 Ottawa's

01:26:45.900 failed

01:26:46.240 economic

01:26:47.040 logic

01:26:47.500 of the

01:26:47.840 70s

01:26:48.440 to affect

01:26:49.640 the norm

01:26:50.100 of a

01:26:50.360 green

01:26:50.520 transition

01:26:51.060 or anything

01:26:51.520 else

01:26:52.020 yes

01:26:52.420 whether

01:26:52.840 so even

01:26:53.420 if he's

01:26:53.820 right

01:26:54.120 it's not

01:26:54.540 going to

01:26:54.820 work

01:26:55.160 right

01:26:55.640 yeah

01:26:55.980 and I'm

01:26:56.520 not making

01:26:56.900 a normative

01:26:57.420 case

01:26:57.820 whether

01:26:58.060 it's a

01:26:58.380 good or

01:26:58.580 bad

01:26:58.820 idea

01:26:58.980 he's

01:27:00.500 just

01:27:00.660 he is

01:27:01.840 it's

01:27:02.780 going to

01:27:03.020 fail

01:27:03.360 and it's

01:27:04.040 going to

01:27:04.280 fail

01:27:04.620 in obvious

01:27:05.320 economics

01:27:06.060 okay

01:27:06.840 and what

01:27:07.120 will

01:27:07.200 failure

01:27:07.540 look like

01:27:08.120 well

01:27:08.380 there's a

01:27:09.600 second leg

01:27:10.040 to the

01:27:10.340 failure

01:27:10.660 okay

01:27:11.080 that

01:27:11.720 the

01:27:12.880 most

01:27:13.360 profound

01:27:14.100 force

01:27:14.980 in the

01:27:15.300 history

01:27:15.760 of

01:27:16.920 mankind

01:27:17.960 in

01:27:18.380 economics

01:27:18.980 is the

01:27:20.020 data

01:27:20.280 driven

01:27:20.560 AI

01:27:20.840 economy

01:27:21.360 and

01:27:22.720 he

01:27:23.020 has

01:27:23.400 nothing

01:27:23.780 to say

01:27:24.180 of data

01:27:24.720 as a

01:27:25.400 factor

01:27:25.660 of

01:27:25.840 production

01:27:26.200 and

01:27:26.400 input

01:27:26.720 to

01:27:26.920 AI

01:27:27.140 and

01:27:27.740 how

01:27:27.880 we

01:27:27.980 have

01:27:28.080 to

01:27:28.200 own

01:27:28.440 and

01:27:28.580 control

01:27:28.920 that

01:27:29.260 and

01:27:29.500 harness

01:27:30.300 our

01:27:30.620 own

01:27:30.880 AI

01:27:31.180 he

01:27:32.240 says

01:27:32.480 nothing

01:27:32.740 about

01:27:32.980 it

01:27:33.100 he

01:27:33.260 has

01:27:33.920 two

01:27:34.140 sentences

01:27:34.480 about

01:27:34.880 be careful

01:27:35.660 about

01:27:35.900 privacy

01:27:36.320 and social

01:27:36.780 media

01:27:37.220 and that's

01:27:38.100 it

01:27:38.340 and so

01:27:39.960 if you

01:27:41.480 look at

01:27:41.940 every

01:27:42.380 market

01:27:42.880 energy

01:27:45.240 mining

01:27:46.300 agriculture

01:27:47.680 lumber

01:27:48.680 they're all 0.95

01:27:50.040 AI

01:27:50.560 and

01:27:51.180 IP

01:27:52.420 driven

01:27:52.820 and so

01:27:53.820 he has

01:27:54.160 nothing to

01:27:54.640 say about

01:27:55.000 that

01:27:55.240 why

01:27:55.860 are

01:27:56.060 they

01:27:56.280 I

01:27:56.560 know

01:27:56.960 well

01:27:57.760 because

01:27:58.320 the force

01:27:59.080 of it

01:27:59.500 is

01:27:59.920 allowing

01:28:00.460 I

01:28:00.800 mean

01:28:01.040 as

01:28:02.800 Schlumberger 0.68

01:28:03.820 who's

01:28:04.460 one of

01:28:04.680 the top

01:28:05.000 10

01:28:05.340 AI

01:28:06.060 IP

01:28:06.340 owners

01:28:06.680 in the

01:28:06.940 world

01:28:07.220 and

01:28:07.400 the

01:28:07.540 large

01:28:07.800 oil

01:28:08.100 sorry

01:28:08.520 Halliburton

01:28:11.620 sorry

01:28:11.940 but

01:28:12.420 Schlumberger 0.68

01:28:12.800 too

01:28:13.140 the oil

01:28:15.920 is a

01:28:16.280 digital

01:28:16.560 economy

01:28:17.040 that you

01:28:17.840 need

01:28:18.080 digital

01:28:18.520 AI

01:28:18.920 and IP

01:28:19.340 to

01:28:19.660 get it

01:28:20.540 out of

01:28:20.820 the ground

01:28:21.340 get it

01:28:22.140 refined

01:28:22.440 right

01:28:22.640 so

01:28:22.800 even

01:28:23.040 even

01:28:23.060 on

01:28:23.840 the

01:28:23.960 resource

01:28:24.320 side

01:28:24.860 the

01:28:25.460 IP

01:28:26.020 ownership

01:28:26.560 and

01:28:27.440 tech

01:28:28.880 element

01:28:29.320 is

01:28:29.840 increasingly

01:28:30.820 predominant

01:28:31.540 it's like

01:28:32.060 it's like

01:28:32.580 the

01:28:32.920 delivery

01:28:33.840 taxicab

01:28:34.600 business

01:28:34.840 it became

01:28:35.240 IP

01:28:35.560 driven

01:28:35.880 right

01:28:36.120 right

01:28:36.380 the

01:28:36.780 medallion

01:28:37.300 used to

01:28:37.560 be worth

01:28:37.840 two

01:28:38.020 million

01:28:38.260 dollars

01:28:38.560 it went

01:28:38.820 to

01:28:38.980 zero

01:28:39.300 because

01:28:39.960 it's

01:28:40.300 this

01:28:40.520 superstructure

01:28:41.300 of

01:28:41.660 IP

01:28:41.980 and

01:28:42.160 data

01:28:42.500 and

01:28:42.960 the

01:28:43.080 same

01:28:43.320 applies

01:28:43.840 to

01:28:44.320 you know

01:28:45.060 shop

01:28:45.400 right

01:28:45.600 so

01:28:45.780 the

01:28:45.940 consequence

01:28:46.400 of

01:28:46.700 virtualization

01:28:47.400 is

01:28:47.640 total

01:28:48.060 it

01:28:48.520 even

01:28:48.740 transforms

01:28:49.780 the

01:28:50.080 reason

01:28:50.320 it's

01:28:51.000 horizontal

01:28:51.440 and

01:28:51.800 there's

01:28:52.060 no

01:28:52.440 there's

01:28:53.180 no

01:28:53.560 there's

01:28:55.600 no

01:28:55.840 articulation

01:28:56.780 of that

01:28:57.300 so it's

01:28:57.920 very

01:28:58.080 important

01:28:58.420 he

01:28:58.680 defines

01:28:59.440 he

01:29:00.080 lays

01:29:00.500 out

01:29:00.800 a path

01:29:01.500 that

01:29:02.260 affects

01:29:03.260 us

01:29:03.480 to

01:29:03.640 an

01:29:03.860 adverse

01:29:04.300 outcome

01:29:06.040 because

01:29:06.480 of

01:29:06.760 the

01:29:06.940 dichotomy

01:29:07.540 and

01:29:08.320 he

01:29:08.660 says

01:29:10.540 nothing

01:29:10.900 about

01:29:11.260 the

01:29:11.800 innovation

01:29:12.140 structure

01:29:12.700 adjustment

01:29:13.400 but

01:29:14.520 he

01:29:14.700 uses

01:29:15.320 further

01:29:15.860 1970s

01:29:16.940 economic

01:29:17.460 analysis

01:29:18.340 that he

01:29:18.760 says

01:29:19.120 because

01:29:19.680 he

01:29:19.860 very

01:29:20.100 famously

01:29:20.520 said

01:29:20.980 businessmen

01:29:23.540 are sitting

01:29:23.880 on dead

01:29:24.200 money

01:29:24.480 it's a

01:29:24.760 very

01:29:24.900 famous

01:29:25.460 expression

01:29:26.160 he

01:29:26.380 said

01:29:26.720 and

01:29:27.340 he

01:29:27.480 said

01:29:27.760 that

01:29:28.120 we

01:29:29.320 use

01:29:29.860 shovels

01:29:31.260 instead

01:29:31.500 of

01:29:31.720 excavators

01:29:32.300 back

01:29:32.580 he

01:29:33.320 said

01:29:33.500 that

01:29:33.720 which

01:29:34.160 means

01:29:34.400 we

01:29:34.580 don't

01:29:34.740 invest

01:29:35.040 in

01:29:35.160 technology

01:29:35.700 so

01:29:36.640 the

01:29:36.840 key

01:29:37.060 is

01:29:37.320 that

01:29:37.520 if

01:29:37.720 you

01:29:37.840 just

01:29:38.160 got

01:29:39.260 if

01:29:39.760 business

01:29:39.980 people

01:29:40.180 stopped

01:29:40.480 being

01:29:40.700 lazy 0.97

01:29:41.100 and 0.84

01:29:41.380 they

01:29:41.480 opened

01:29:41.660 up

01:29:41.820 their

01:29:41.940 wallets

01:29:42.340 and

01:29:42.460 just

01:29:42.640 threw

01:29:42.880 it

01:29:43.020 in

01:29:43.180 there

01:29:43.480 they

01:29:44.280 would

01:29:44.520 do

01:29:44.960 great

01:29:45.400 and

01:29:45.960 that's

01:29:47.040 actually

01:29:47.260 kind of

01:29:47.560 a

01:29:47.700 variation

01:29:48.200 of

01:29:48.460 the

01:29:48.580 libertarian

01:29:49.060 argument

01:29:49.420 but it's

01:29:49.940 also

01:29:50.160 a variation

01:29:51.020 of

01:29:51.260 complacency

01:29:51.940 resource

01:29:52.960 curse

01:29:53.220 complacency

01:29:53.860 and

01:29:54.720 I've

01:29:55.760 been

01:29:55.860 doing

01:29:56.040 business

01:29:56.360 in

01:29:56.500 this

01:29:56.620 country

01:29:56.900 for

01:29:57.140 35

01:29:57.500 years

01:29:58.000 I

01:29:58.780 have

01:29:58.920 never

01:29:59.420 met

01:29:59.660 a

01:29:59.820 CEO

01:30:00.120 who

01:30:00.420 says

01:30:00.820 I'm

01:30:01.840 just

01:30:01.980 going

01:30:02.140 to

01:30:02.220 take

01:30:02.380 it

01:30:02.500 easy

01:30:02.720 and

01:30:02.900 be

01:30:03.000 on

01:30:03.140 the

01:30:03.260 dock

01:30:03.520 this

01:30:03.780 weekend

01:30:04.180 I

01:30:04.720 don't

01:30:04.860 want

01:30:04.980 to

01:30:05.080 double

01:30:05.260 my

01:30:05.500 profits

01:30:05.820 this

01:30:06.000 year

01:30:06.160 I've

01:30:07.760 dealt

01:30:08.000 with

01:30:08.200 money

01:30:08.440 managers

01:30:08.820 all

01:30:09.180 that

01:30:09.440 time

01:30:09.900 both

01:30:10.660 for

01:30:11.340 investing

01:30:13.120 companies

01:30:13.580 and

01:30:13.820 me

01:30:14.300 putting

01:30:14.520 my

01:30:14.740 money

01:30:14.940 to

01:30:15.140 work

01:30:15.300 I

01:30:15.960 have

01:30:16.100 never

01:30:16.460 met

01:30:16.680 a

01:30:16.800 money

01:30:16.980 manager

01:30:17.380 who

01:30:17.620 says

01:30:17.860 I'm

01:30:18.220 happy

01:30:18.920 to

01:30:19.060 be

01:30:19.180 third

01:30:19.400 quartile

01:30:20.040 this

01:30:20.780 year

01:30:21.160 rather

01:30:21.880 than

01:30:22.080 first

01:30:22.300 quartile

01:30:22.720 because

01:30:22.940 the

01:30:23.060 fishing

01:30:23.260 's

01:30:23.420 good

01:30:23.700 and

01:30:24.580 the

01:30:25.040 fact

01:30:25.300 of

01:30:25.440 the

01:30:25.480 matter

01:30:25.620 nobody

01:30:25.940 sitting

01:30:26.360 back

01:30:26.720 on

01:30:26.900 their

01:30:27.060 laurels

01:30:27.280 every

01:30:27.820 businessman

01:30:28.380 has

01:30:28.720 this

01:30:28.920 nose

01:30:29.460 that

01:30:30.060 they're

01:30:30.280 sniffing

01:30:30.940 for

01:30:31.480 money

01:30:31.860 and

01:30:32.220 they're

01:30:32.380 sniffing

01:30:32.720 how

01:30:32.860 to

01:30:32.940 make

01:30:33.100 money

01:30:33.460 that's

01:30:34.160 the

01:30:34.320 game

01:30:34.600 everybody

01:30:35.140 does

01:30:36.360 that

01:30:36.680 all

01:30:36.960 day

01:30:37.140 every

01:30:37.320 day

01:30:37.480 and

01:30:37.660 for

01:30:37.840 somebody

01:30:38.320 who's

01:30:38.720 been

01:30:39.000 fundamentally

01:30:40.160 a career

01:30:40.700 civil

01:30:41.180 servant

01:30:41.540 and

01:30:42.640 to

01:30:42.860 make

01:30:43.140 these

01:30:43.400 broad

01:30:43.880 articulations

01:30:44.880 who

01:30:46.160 has

01:30:46.300 never

01:30:46.540 gone

01:30:46.860 out

01:30:47.000 and

01:30:47.100 got

01:30:47.200 a

01:30:47.320 purchase

01:30:47.600 order

01:30:48.000 and

01:30:48.680 traded

01:30:49.280 Canadian

01:30:49.760 goods

01:30:50.080 globally

01:30:50.600 that

01:30:52.680 actually

01:30:53.440 means

01:30:54.420 that

01:30:54.580 he

01:30:54.660 doesn't

01:30:54.920 understand

01:30:55.460 the nature

01:30:55.880 of how

01:30:56.160 capital

01:30:56.540 goes

01:30:57.080 in the

01:30:57.920 productivity

01:30:58.360 function

01:30:58.980 but

01:30:59.180 he's also

01:30:59.580 shuffling

01:31:00.200 off

01:31:00.500 responsibility

01:31:01.300 well

01:31:01.780 the issue

01:31:02.460 is

01:31:02.720 if you

01:31:03.220 don't

01:31:03.400 have

01:31:03.640 the

01:31:03.780 IP

01:31:04.140 and you

01:31:05.480 don't

01:31:05.580 have

01:31:05.740 control

01:31:06.040 of the

01:31:06.360 AI

01:31:06.660 function

01:31:07.980 if you

01:31:08.720 put the

01:31:09.100 money

01:31:09.560 in that

01:31:10.140 that

01:31:10.620 accrues

01:31:11.100 to the

01:31:11.380 owner

01:31:11.620 of that

01:31:12.120 so it's

01:31:12.860 like you

01:31:13.180 building

01:31:13.500 a house

01:31:13.920 on land

01:31:14.360 you don't

01:31:14.740 own

01:31:15.080 and we

01:31:15.920 had an

01:31:16.760 economic

01:31:17.400 policy

01:31:17.860 of never

01:31:18.240 owning

01:31:18.540 the

01:31:18.720 land

01:31:19.080 underneath

01:31:19.400 it

01:31:19.860 so

01:31:20.600 and then

01:31:21.000 he

01:31:21.120 says

01:31:21.280 well look

01:31:21.640 if you

01:31:21.920 build a

01:31:22.160 house

01:31:22.320 on that

01:31:22.560 it's

01:31:22.680 going

01:31:22.780 to be

01:31:22.880 a

01:31:23.000 great

01:31:23.180 big

01:31:23.420 beautiful

01:31:23.860 rich

01:31:24.300 hotel

01:31:24.640 don't

01:31:25.140 be

01:31:25.260 so

01:31:25.460 lazy

01:31:25.860 where

01:31:26.440 the

01:31:26.600 business

01:31:26.860 kind

01:31:27.060 of

01:31:27.120 goes

01:31:27.280 I

01:31:27.600 know

01:31:27.780 I

01:31:27.900 don't

01:31:28.040 own

01:31:28.220 the

01:31:28.360 land

01:31:28.620 I

01:31:28.780 don't

01:31:28.880 know

01:31:29.000 how

01:31:29.160 to

01:31:29.280 own

01:31:29.600 that

01:31:29.780 land

01:31:30.060 I

01:31:30.400 don't

01:31:30.480 have

01:31:30.600 a

01:31:30.700 public

01:31:30.920 policy

01:31:31.360 that

01:31:31.500 supports

01:31:31.760 me

01:31:31.880 there

01:31:32.020 but

01:31:32.420 I'm

01:31:32.540 sure

01:31:32.680 not

01:31:32.860 going

01:31:32.980 to

01:31:33.060 turn

01:31:33.200 my

01:31:33.380 dollar

01:31:33.640 into

01:31:33.840 10

01:31:34.120 cents

01:31:34.500 now

01:31:35.020 the

01:31:35.160 public

01:31:35.440 investments

01:31:35.920 have

01:31:36.120 always

01:31:36.380 turned

01:31:36.780 a

01:31:37.940 dollar

01:31:38.160 into

01:31:38.380 10

01:31:38.680 cents

01:31:39.100 but

01:31:39.440 that's

01:31:39.680 taxpayer

01:31:40.080 money

01:31:40.460 but

01:31:41.120 if

01:31:41.520 a

01:31:41.740 businessman

01:31:42.100 does

01:31:42.420 that

01:31:42.660 they're

01:31:42.940 quickly

01:31:43.180 bankrupt

01:31:43.580 and

01:31:43.820 out

01:31:43.980 of

01:31:44.140 the

01:31:44.300 business

01:31:44.720 so

01:31:45.380 his

01:31:46.000 articulation

01:31:47.360 and framing

01:31:47.880 of

01:31:48.120 we just

01:31:48.820 have to

01:31:49.140 spend

01:31:49.400 more

01:31:49.660 money

01:31:49.960 longer

01:31:50.420 which

01:31:50.700 is

01:31:50.840 Einstein's

01:31:51.560 definition

01:31:52.360 of

01:31:52.560 insanity

01:31:53.080 I

01:31:55.120 think

01:31:56.160 is

01:31:56.440 misplaced

01:31:57.220 because

01:31:57.400 he's

01:31:57.560 not

01:31:57.740 resolving

01:31:58.280 the

01:31:59.040 core

01:31:59.240 issue

01:31:59.540 which

01:31:59.800 is

01:31:59.940 what

01:32:00.180 creates

01:32:00.540 a

01:32:00.680 good

01:32:00.860 investment

01:32:01.280 opportunity

01:32:01.900 in an

01:32:02.640 era

01:32:02.840 of

01:32:03.000 intangibles

01:32:03.620 and

01:32:03.820 so

01:32:04.080 I

01:32:04.980 look

01:32:05.360 at

01:32:05.560 his

01:32:06.060 prescriptions

01:32:07.260 and

01:32:08.320 you

01:32:09.940 have

01:32:10.240 it's

01:32:11.660 important

01:32:11.960 to

01:32:12.100 understand

01:32:12.460 this

01:32:12.800 for

01:32:13.880 people

01:32:14.160 is

01:32:14.420 that

01:32:14.660 he's

01:32:15.580 a

01:32:15.700 macro

01:32:15.980 economist

01:32:16.480 and

01:32:16.920 a

01:32:17.060 central

01:32:17.280 banker

01:32:17.620 and

01:32:18.460 that's

01:32:18.660 a

01:32:18.800 very

01:32:19.080 narrow

01:32:19.360 function

01:32:19.840 your

01:32:20.900 responsibility

01:32:22.160 is

01:32:22.720 price

01:32:23.960 stability

01:32:24.420 of

01:32:24.780 the

01:32:25.020 money

01:32:25.380 systems

01:32:26.040 banking

01:32:26.920 stability

01:32:27.460 in

01:32:27.620 the

01:32:27.740 regulatory

01:32:28.360 compliance

01:32:29.500 of

01:32:29.780 the

01:32:29.920 payment

01:32:30.180 systems

01:32:30.760 you

01:32:31.320 operate

01:32:31.800 in

01:32:31.960 a

01:32:32.120 narrow

01:32:32.400 but

01:32:32.720 important

01:32:33.120 realm

01:32:33.480 but

01:32:34.340 your

01:32:34.480 involvement

01:32:34.900 with

01:32:35.200 the

01:32:35.380 firm

01:32:35.640 and

01:32:35.780 the

01:32:35.920 productivity

01:32:36.400 is

01:32:37.440 that's

01:32:37.860 a

01:32:37.980 very

01:32:38.180 distant

01:32:38.680 part

01:32:39.540 it

01:32:39.700 seems

01:32:40.020 similar

01:32:40.440 so

01:32:41.000 his

01:32:41.200 expertise

01:32:41.680 doesn't

01:32:42.280 transfer

01:32:42.700 the

01:32:42.720 metaphor

01:32:43.000 I can

01:32:43.360 say

01:32:43.560 is

01:32:43.740 it's

01:32:44.140 like

01:32:44.360 he's

01:32:44.600 a

01:32:44.760 leading

01:32:45.200 dermatologist

01:32:46.780 he's

01:32:47.560 a

01:32:47.660 doctor

01:32:47.980 and

01:32:48.800 he said

01:32:49.080 well

01:32:49.320 I'm

01:32:49.540 a

01:32:49.640 doctor

01:32:50.020 I'm

01:32:50.880 going

01:32:50.980 to

01:32:51.040 do

01:32:51.160 neurosurgery

01:32:51.800 because

01:32:52.140 that's

01:32:52.400 a

01:32:52.540 doctor

01:32:52.880 and

01:32:53.580 the

01:32:53.740 brain

01:32:54.220 is

01:32:54.500 very

01:32:54.660 close

01:32:54.940 to

01:32:55.100 the

01:32:55.200 face

01:32:55.440 which

01:32:55.640 has

01:32:55.760 got

01:32:55.920 skin

01:32:56.280 so

01:32:56.880 I

01:32:57.000 can

01:32:57.120 do

01:32:57.300 this

01:32:57.620 and

01:32:57.960 in

01:32:58.260 fact

01:32:58.520 these

01:32:58.860 are

01:32:59.000 very

01:32:59.420 different

01:32:59.980 realms

01:33:00.520 that

01:33:01.240 have

01:33:01.420 very

01:33:01.680 different

01:33:01.940 levels

01:33:02.240 of

01:33:02.400 expertise

01:33:09.540 have

01:33:10.640 Canada's

01:33:11.200 performed

01:33:11.580 poorly

01:33:12.060 he

01:33:13.400 has

01:33:14.060 been

01:33:14.220 part

01:33:14.440 of a

01:33:14.660 scene

01:33:14.940 that's

01:33:15.200 performed

01:33:15.480 an

01:33:15.660 architect

01:33:15.960 of a

01:33:16.240 scene

01:33:16.340 that's

01:33:16.520 performed

01:33:16.780 poorly

01:33:17.640 and he

01:33:18.400 has

01:33:18.700 no

01:33:18.900 expertise

01:33:19.280 in this

01:33:19.820 realm

01:33:20.100 and no

01:33:20.680 experience

01:33:21.160 he didn't

01:33:21.560 need to

01:33:22.060 have it

01:33:22.320 as a

01:33:22.480 central

01:33:22.700 banker

01:33:23.100 but he's

01:33:24.280 availing

01:33:25.060 as if

01:33:25.400 he does

01:33:25.640 yeah

01:33:25.800 well that

01:33:26.100 was one

01:33:26.440 of my

01:33:26.760 impressions

01:33:27.200 in reading

01:33:27.740 the book

01:33:28.100 and it

01:33:28.380 makes me

01:33:28.780 nervous

01:33:29.140 because

01:33:29.640 his

01:33:31.060 thinking

01:33:31.400 to me

01:33:31.960 is just

01:33:33.300 a more

01:33:33.620 efficient

01:33:34.060 Trudeau

01:33:34.620 yes

01:33:35.660 much

01:33:36.120 more

01:33:36.740 efficient

01:33:37.100 more

01:33:37.400 much broader

01:33:38.260 scale

01:33:38.660 with much

01:33:39.160 better

01:33:39.560 international

01:33:40.120 connections

01:33:40.740 yeah

01:33:40.920 but

01:33:41.080 I think

01:33:43.000 efficient

01:33:43.640 in this

01:33:44.180 direction

01:33:44.740 yeah

01:33:45.200 given

01:33:46.360 what's

01:33:46.700 happened

01:33:46.940 to

01:33:47.140 Canada

01:33:47.560 yeah

01:33:48.060 faster

01:33:49.080 and faster

01:33:49.760 and we're

01:33:50.360 last place

01:33:50.980 already

01:33:51.940 we could

01:33:53.700 what's

01:33:54.240 below

01:33:54.780 last place

01:33:55.620 yeah

01:33:56.140 well Canadians

01:33:56.880 you know

01:33:57.260 I can

01:33:57.600 understand

01:33:58.120 the

01:33:58.340 conundrum

01:33:58.800 because

01:33:59.180 Carney

01:33:59.860 has

01:34:00.240 an

01:34:00.420 he has

01:34:01.040 international

01:34:01.820 imprimatur

01:34:02.380 because he

01:34:03.000 was governor

01:34:03.680 of the

01:34:03.960 Bank of

01:34:04.300 England

01:34:04.560 and it's

01:34:05.260 very easy

01:34:06.020 and I can

01:34:06.480 understand it

01:34:07.200 for people

01:34:08.180 to think

01:34:08.820 well

01:34:09.120 he's been

01:34:09.740 successful

01:34:10.260 in two

01:34:10.700 complex

01:34:11.120 jobs

01:34:11.500 one of

01:34:11.880 them

01:34:11.980 was

01:34:12.120 outside

01:34:12.400 of

01:34:12.580 Canada

01:34:12.920 it's

01:34:13.660 the same

01:34:13.980 job

01:34:14.280 it's the

01:34:14.880 same

01:34:15.060 job

01:34:15.420 yeah

01:34:15.660 fair enough

01:34:16.480 fair enough

01:34:16.980 but it's

01:34:17.400 easy for people

01:34:18.200 to presume

01:34:18.920 that that

01:34:19.920 makes him

01:34:20.360 a master

01:34:20.980 of financial

01:34:21.840 strategy

01:34:22.500 in all

01:34:22.980 dimensions

01:34:23.420 when they

01:34:23.900 don't know

01:34:24.580 the nuances

01:34:25.820 he's a

01:34:26.680 dermatologist

01:34:27.480 and we need

01:34:28.140 a neurosurgeon

01:34:28.800 and they're

01:34:29.780 both on the

01:34:30.320 head

01:34:30.660 but they're

01:34:31.600 different

01:34:31.920 and they're

01:34:32.280 really

01:34:32.440 different

01:34:32.800 all right

01:34:34.100 let's

01:34:34.540 turn our

01:34:34.940 attention

01:34:35.300 as we're

01:34:35.920 exhausting

01:34:38.220 our time

01:34:38.860 on the

01:34:39.180 YouTube

01:34:39.400 side

01:34:39.780 let's

01:34:40.060 turn our

01:34:40.420 attention

01:34:40.780 to

01:34:41.160 the

01:34:43.120 person

01:34:43.460 who's

01:34:43.740 the

01:34:43.900 major

01:34:44.200 contender

01:34:44.720 for the

01:34:45.080 position

01:34:45.460 of

01:34:45.680 prime

01:34:45.920 minister

01:34:46.140 at the

01:34:46.500 moment

01:34:46.720 and that

01:34:47.080 would be

01:34:47.400 Pauliev

01:34:47.780 now you

01:34:48.200 already said

01:34:48.960 and the

01:34:49.520 conservatives

01:34:49.960 you already

01:34:50.420 said that

01:34:50.960 you're

01:34:51.500 stringently

01:34:52.860 and consciously

01:34:54.280 nonpartisan

01:34:55.200 not only in

01:34:55.860 your

01:34:56.000 attitudes

01:34:56.340 but also

01:34:56.920 in your

01:34:57.280 financing

01:34:57.800 and so

01:34:58.700 we're

01:34:59.400 presuming

01:34:59.880 that you're

01:35:01.100 attempting

01:35:01.620 to evaluate

01:35:02.500 both of

01:35:03.320 these men

01:35:03.880 and their

01:35:04.500 ideas

01:35:05.400 at the

01:35:06.420 realm of

01:35:06.960 confidence

01:35:07.600 and idea

01:35:08.260 so tell

01:35:09.540 me about

01:35:09.940 Pauliev

01:35:10.340 you've had

01:35:11.060 some interaction

01:35:11.740 with him

01:35:12.100 you've talked

01:35:12.560 to his

01:35:12.900 some of

01:35:13.600 his advisors

01:35:14.220 about the

01:35:15.240 issues that

01:35:15.740 we've been

01:35:16.080 describing

01:35:16.540 tell me

01:35:17.460 what you

01:35:17.920 what you're

01:35:18.660 concluding

01:35:19.140 what you're

01:35:19.520 seeing

01:35:19.880 well when I

01:35:21.480 wrote that

01:35:21.900 piece

01:35:22.360 about

01:35:23.060 we're all

01:35:23.860 economic

01:35:24.260 nationalists

01:35:24.840 now

01:35:25.200 that was

01:35:26.160 really a

01:35:26.840 word to

01:35:27.780 the

01:35:28.840 neocons

01:35:29.440 that if

01:35:30.280 you're a

01:35:30.520 freedmanite

01:35:31.060 then be a

01:35:32.100 freedmanite

01:35:32.620 adjust to

01:35:33.620 the facts

01:35:33.980 on the

01:35:34.200 ground

01:35:34.540 and

01:35:35.800 I've

01:35:37.340 recently

01:35:37.740 heard some

01:35:38.200 things that

01:35:38.840 are encouraging

01:35:39.660 that seem

01:35:41.160 like the

01:35:41.500 emergence

01:35:41.940 and

01:35:42.340 Mr.

01:35:43.640 Pauliev

01:35:43.880 does not

01:35:44.400 owe us

01:35:44.800 a full

01:35:45.240 campaign

01:35:45.980 yet

01:35:46.260 because

01:35:46.500 the

01:35:46.680 campaign

01:35:47.140 has not

01:35:48.060 started

01:35:48.460 so

01:35:48.920 my

01:35:49.720 fulsome

01:35:50.220 evaluation

01:35:50.780 is to

01:35:51.300 be done

01:35:51.640 but I

01:35:51.920 think

01:35:52.120 Carney's

01:35:53.420 played his

01:35:53.780 cards

01:35:54.100 because he's

01:35:54.480 in a

01:35:54.700 campaign

01:35:55.040 right

01:35:55.380 he's

01:35:55.820 written a

01:35:56.420 book

01:35:56.660 and he's

01:35:57.540 done a

01:35:57.820 campaign

01:35:58.120 so I

01:35:59.300 assume

01:35:59.620 that's

01:36:00.000 his

01:36:00.200 playbook

01:36:00.780 and Mr.

01:36:02.580 Pauliev

01:36:02.900 is imminent

01:36:04.320 if there's

01:36:05.640 an election

01:36:05.960 imminent

01:36:06.260 which I

01:36:06.580 think there

01:36:06.880 is

01:36:07.220 but he's

01:36:09.780 done some

01:36:10.480 green shoots

01:36:11.160 which intrigued

01:36:12.140 me

01:36:12.420 he recently

01:36:13.340 said we

01:36:14.040 need to

01:36:14.500 take back

01:36:15.180 control of

01:36:16.640 our economy

01:36:17.160 we need to

01:36:18.060 be sovereign

01:36:18.720 secure

01:36:19.800 and prosperous

01:36:22.660 or something

01:36:23.420 like that

01:36:24.000 but the

01:36:25.220 fact that

01:36:25.760 the government

01:36:26.580 has a

01:36:26.940 role of

01:36:27.520 taking back

01:36:28.340 control of

01:36:28.880 our destiny

01:36:29.440 and our

01:36:30.460 security

01:36:30.980 and our

01:36:31.380 sovereignty

01:36:31.760 and our

01:36:32.040 prosperity

01:36:32.560 and our

01:36:33.320 economic

01:36:33.880 entity

01:36:34.460 not as

01:36:35.800 protectionism

01:36:36.820 but to

01:36:37.680 make us

01:36:38.080 strong for

01:36:38.620 a dangerous

01:36:39.060 world and

01:36:39.740 to make

01:36:40.000 our company

01:36:40.420 strong

01:36:41.060 going out

01:36:42.060 to the

01:36:42.320 world

01:36:42.600 well that's

01:36:44.220 interesting

01:36:44.640 and then

01:36:45.500 he has

01:36:46.400 well and you

01:36:46.760 see this

01:36:47.180 as somewhat

01:36:47.620 of a radical

01:36:48.280 departure from

01:36:49.240 Canadian

01:36:50.040 political

01:36:50.540 maneuvering on

01:36:51.200 both sides

01:36:51.780 of the aisle

01:36:52.300 over the last

01:36:52.860 30 years

01:36:53.060 he's introducing

01:36:53.700 the second

01:36:54.160 leg

01:36:54.500 and then

01:36:56.220 what I've

01:36:56.680 heard

01:36:57.160 for the

01:36:57.780 first time

01:36:58.240 in 30

01:36:58.580 years

01:36:58.860 he has

01:36:59.240 an industry

01:36:59.720 critic

01:37:00.280 named Rick

01:37:01.240 Perkins

01:37:01.640 who has

01:37:02.000 said we

01:37:02.780 need to

01:37:03.080 own our

01:37:03.460 ideas

01:37:03.800 we need

01:37:04.100 to control

01:37:04.560 our data

01:37:05.660 to build

01:37:06.800 our companies

01:37:07.320 and nobody

01:37:08.460 has said

01:37:08.860 that

01:37:09.220 it was an

01:37:09.940 interview

01:37:10.180 about a

01:37:10.620 month ago

01:37:11.020 and I'm

01:37:11.240 like well

01:37:11.640 where'd

01:37:11.880 that come

01:37:12.200 from

01:37:12.500 and then

01:37:13.400 he's

01:37:13.660 had

01:37:14.100 so where

01:37:14.880 did it

01:37:15.220 come from

01:37:15.740 I think

01:37:16.360 they're

01:37:17.580 trying to

01:37:17.960 think

01:37:18.180 they're

01:37:18.380 trying to

01:37:18.780 realize

01:37:19.100 that there's

01:37:20.140 two legs

01:37:20.600 here

01:37:20.880 his trade

01:37:21.900 critic

01:37:22.320 Ryan

01:37:23.100 Williams

01:37:23.600 has been

01:37:24.280 calling for

01:37:25.220 updated

01:37:25.640 trade

01:37:26.020 strategies

01:37:26.600 where

01:37:27.200 we

01:37:27.800 actually

01:37:28.180 figure out

01:37:29.360 how to

01:37:29.740 project

01:37:30.100 Canadian

01:37:30.520 interests

01:37:30.920 in these

01:37:31.440 games

01:37:32.020 where there's

01:37:32.620 strategic

01:37:33.360 behavior

01:37:33.860 by nation

01:37:34.520 states

01:37:35.020 which is

01:37:36.440 encouraging

01:37:37.020 because that's

01:37:37.840 we should have

01:37:38.620 had it 30

01:37:39.040 years ago

01:37:39.600 nice to

01:37:40.440 start now

01:37:41.220 Michelle

01:37:42.520 Rempel's been

01:37:43.180 talking about

01:37:43.640 updated

01:37:44.140 competition

01:37:45.380 strategies

01:37:45.980 where you

01:37:47.040 don't just

01:37:47.500 throw it as

01:37:48.220 one bucket

01:37:48.780 you need to

01:37:49.440 compete

01:37:49.900 in domestic

01:37:50.740 services

01:37:51.280 more

01:37:51.640 but you

01:37:51.940 need to

01:37:52.220 support

01:37:52.620 our global

01:37:53.120 traders

01:37:53.600 more

01:37:53.900 so one

01:37:54.580 is a

01:37:54.920 supporting

01:37:55.880 them

01:37:56.060 into the

01:37:56.360 world

01:37:56.560 one is

01:37:57.040 to

01:37:57.360 compete

01:37:58.060 away

01:37:58.380 monopoly

01:37:59.220 rents

01:38:01.020 that hurt

01:38:01.560 consumers

01:38:02.100 again

01:38:02.840 that

01:38:03.620 distinction

01:38:04.440 has not

01:38:04.920 been done

01:38:05.300 for 30

01:38:05.800 years

01:38:06.220 and I've

01:38:07.420 heard

01:38:07.640 Michelle

01:38:08.240 Rempel

01:38:08.680 and Adam

01:38:09.460 Chambers

01:38:09.860 talk about

01:38:10.560 helping

01:38:11.360 Canadian

01:38:11.720 companies

01:38:12.200 grow

01:38:12.640 for the

01:38:13.060 benefit

01:38:13.840 and building

01:38:15.140 more capacity

01:38:15.880 in the civil

01:38:16.300 service to

01:38:16.860 deal with

01:38:17.200 this

01:38:17.360 change

01:38:17.680 so I

01:38:18.500 see these

01:38:19.120 as

01:38:19.420 green shoots

01:38:20.260 in what

01:38:20.840 seems to

01:38:21.800 be a loosely

01:38:22.380 emerging

01:38:23.080 poly of

01:38:24.400 doctrine

01:38:24.860 we see

01:38:25.680 the

01:38:25.920 Carney

01:38:26.220 doctrine

01:38:26.840 we know

01:38:29.920 the

01:38:30.120 Carney

01:38:30.720 doctrine

01:38:31.020 values

01:38:32.580 is a

01:38:33.220 rather

01:38:34.080 thorough

01:38:34.540 book

01:38:34.980 for all

01:38:35.800 its

01:38:36.020 failings

01:38:36.520 and people

01:38:37.180 tend to

01:38:37.780 do what

01:38:38.200 they say

01:38:38.620 they're

01:38:38.840 going to

01:38:39.220 do

01:38:39.340 so that's

01:38:39.900 laid out

01:38:40.360 you see

01:38:41.040 the emergence

01:38:41.520 of something

01:38:42.120 approximating

01:38:42.860 a poly of

01:38:43.420 doctrine

01:38:43.620 a two

01:38:44.240 legged

01:38:44.500 race

01:38:45.020 and if

01:38:46.700 we don't

01:38:47.160 have a

01:38:48.100 two legged

01:38:48.440 strategy

01:38:48.940 we will

01:38:49.420 be

01:38:49.940 subordinated

01:38:51.860 Puerto Rico

01:38:53.480 without a

01:38:54.340 passport

01:38:54.700 if we do

01:38:55.840 have it

01:38:56.420 then the

01:38:57.460 question is

01:38:57.900 are we

01:38:58.140 effective

01:38:58.560 in the

01:38:59.400 capacity

01:38:59.800 building

01:39:00.160 of the

01:39:01.400 political

01:39:01.660 class

01:39:02.580 and the

01:39:03.280 civil

01:39:03.500 service

01:39:03.880 to actually

01:39:04.320 perform

01:39:04.660 into it

01:39:05.420 while we've

01:39:07.120 been atrophied

01:39:07.860 in this

01:39:08.260 realm

01:39:08.640 for the

01:39:09.540 better part

01:39:09.980 of 30

01:39:10.340 years

01:39:10.720 okay so

01:39:11.300 let's talk

01:39:11.780 about that

01:39:12.220 a little

01:39:12.460 bit

01:39:12.660 because I'd

01:39:13.240 like to

01:39:13.460 get a bit

01:39:13.760 more concrete

01:39:14.340 about that

01:39:14.800 so what

01:39:15.180 you've

01:39:15.420 said

01:39:15.660 was

01:39:16.000 and tell

01:39:17.600 I'll

01:39:17.960 paraphrase

01:39:18.500 you tell

01:39:18.880 me if

01:39:19.160 I've got

01:39:19.500 this right

01:39:19.980 that

01:39:20.200 independent

01:39:21.660 of Carney's

01:39:23.000 diagnosis

01:39:23.600 of the

01:39:24.180 need for

01:39:24.680 transformation

01:39:25.200 in our

01:39:25.780 economy

01:39:26.240 your

01:39:26.920 assessment

01:39:27.380 of the

01:39:28.000 strategies

01:39:28.440 that he's

01:39:28.960 put forth

01:39:29.520 so far

01:39:30.440 are first

01:39:31.540 let's say

01:39:32.160 that he

01:39:33.000 hasn't fleshed

01:39:33.700 out anything

01:39:34.300 indicating any

01:39:35.300 understanding

01:39:35.920 whatsoever

01:39:36.400 of the

01:39:37.480 problems

01:39:38.020 that you've

01:39:38.620 described in

01:39:39.300 the second

01:39:39.740 leg of

01:39:40.180 this race

01:39:40.760 he's

01:39:41.160 he's rooted

01:39:41.760 he's got

01:39:43.060 bad economics

01:39:43.780 it's rooted

01:39:44.240 in the

01:39:44.540 1970s

01:39:45.200 economics

01:39:45.560 it's poor

01:39:46.720 economics

01:39:47.320 for a doctor

01:39:49.440 it's poor

01:39:50.020 surgery

01:39:51.500 right

01:39:52.500 and the

01:39:53.200 second

01:39:53.460 problem

01:39:53.900 is that

01:39:54.460 the plan

01:39:54.980 that he

01:39:55.320 is going

01:39:55.800 to implement

01:39:56.340 is going

01:39:57.240 to make

01:39:58.480 what we

01:39:58.960 do do

01:39:59.440 well

01:39:59.820 more expensive

01:40:01.360 and less

01:40:01.820 productive

01:40:02.240 and exacerbate

01:40:04.100 our problems

01:40:04.780 on the side

01:40:05.680 of the things

01:40:06.340 that we don't

01:40:06.840 do well

01:40:07.280 with no

01:40:07.880 strategies

01:40:08.380 to resolve

01:40:08.880 that dichotomy

01:40:09.500 okay

01:40:09.980 so that's

01:40:11.040 Mr. Carney

01:40:11.740 now

01:40:12.080 and then

01:40:12.600 moralizes

01:40:13.180 that says

01:40:13.680 we got to

01:40:14.100 spend more

01:40:14.680 money longer

01:40:15.460 doing the

01:40:16.200 things we

01:40:16.540 did before

01:40:17.220 because that's

01:40:18.580 the key

01:40:19.000 because people

01:40:19.920 don't see

01:40:20.500 the lot of

01:40:20.980 gold of

01:40:21.740 just opening

01:40:22.300 up your

01:40:22.580 wallets

01:40:22.920 more despite

01:40:23.580 the fact

01:40:23.960 we've been

01:40:24.240 opening up

01:40:24.680 our wallets

01:40:25.160 for decades

01:40:25.780 at enormous

01:40:26.720 amounts

01:40:27.160 it's just

01:40:27.660 about more

01:40:28.500 and longer

01:40:29.040 okay

01:40:29.920 okay

01:40:30.300 now on

01:40:30.880 the Polyev 0.98

01:40:31.640 front

01:40:32.020 well we've

01:40:32.920 talked a little

01:40:33.560 bit about

01:40:34.100 the shortcomings

01:40:34.920 of a strictly

01:40:35.680 libertarian

01:40:36.500 free market

01:40:37.440 view

01:40:37.840 in light

01:40:39.060 of the

01:40:39.380 realities

01:40:39.780 of the

01:40:40.120 new

01:40:40.260 economy

01:40:40.740 but you're

01:40:43.800 saying that

01:40:44.560 and you've

01:40:45.520 discussed a

01:40:46.060 number of

01:40:46.460 the people

01:40:46.820 that's working

01:40:47.340 with him

01:40:47.740 and these

01:40:48.200 are people

01:40:48.540 that you've

01:40:48.940 had some

01:40:49.340 contact

01:40:49.720 with

01:40:50.160 what as

01:40:50.640 a

01:40:50.800 you're

01:40:51.580 following

01:40:52.160 them

01:40:52.460 as

01:40:52.780 in

01:40:53.040 discussions

01:40:53.500 yeah

01:40:54.180 following

01:40:54.560 them

01:40:54.820 I've

01:40:55.100 testified

01:40:55.440 to

01:40:55.720 committees

01:40:56.120 yeah

01:40:57.420 okay

01:40:57.960 and you're

01:40:58.320 seeing the

01:40:58.700 emergence

01:40:59.060 of something

01:40:59.680 that you

01:41:00.120 think

01:41:00.420 has some

01:41:00.880 promise

01:41:01.300 okay

01:41:01.600 so let's

01:41:02.100 delve into

01:41:02.960 that a little

01:41:03.400 bit more

01:41:03.880 at the

01:41:05.580 beginning

01:41:05.840 of our

01:41:06.200 conversation

01:41:06.800 you pointed

01:41:07.360 out for

01:41:07.740 example

01:41:08.100 that the

01:41:08.520 americans

01:41:08.980 have developed

01:41:09.540 these

01:41:09.960 councils

01:41:10.740 that canada

01:41:11.460 scrapped

01:41:12.220 30 years

01:41:13.540 ago

01:41:13.900 that

01:41:14.480 33 years

01:41:15.400 ago

01:41:15.680 but who's

01:41:16.300 counting

01:41:16.620 right

01:41:16.980 right

01:41:17.400 that enabled

01:41:18.020 them

01:41:18.200 well those

01:41:18.740 were

01:41:18.940 pretty

01:41:19.720 remarkable

01:41:20.520 three

01:41:21.020 decades

01:41:21.520 right

01:41:21.820 it's

01:41:22.060 definitely

01:41:22.520 not

01:41:23.020 1970

01:41:23.660 anymore

01:41:24.400 right

01:41:24.940 it's

01:41:25.120 probably

01:41:25.360 not

01:41:25.580 even

01:41:25.820 2010

01:41:26.480 anymore

01:41:27.280 right

01:41:27.900 right

01:41:28.300 okay

01:41:28.880 and so

01:41:29.420 what

01:41:30.260 would

01:41:30.680 what do

01:41:31.300 you think

01:41:31.720 needs to

01:41:32.200 be done

01:41:32.540 by either

01:41:33.000 of these

01:41:33.400 leaders

01:41:33.740 for that

01:41:34.200 matter

01:41:34.540 to

01:41:35.440 provide

01:41:36.740 canadian

01:41:37.660 politicians

01:41:38.580 the political

01:41:39.260 system

01:41:39.780 the civil

01:41:40.520 service

01:41:40.980 with the

01:41:41.780 expertise

01:41:42.400 necessary

01:41:43.320 to develop

01:41:43.940 the policies

01:41:44.720 that would

01:41:45.960 make us

01:41:46.440 competitive

01:41:46.880 with the

01:41:47.740 cutthroat 0.92

01:41:48.120 americans

01:41:48.700 for example

01:41:49.320 who are

01:41:49.940 definitely

01:41:50.540 charging

01:41:51.860 rampaging

01:41:52.780 down this

01:41:53.360 road at a

01:41:54.100 rate that's

01:41:55.060 really quite

01:41:55.660 miraculous

01:41:56.220 so what

01:41:57.540 what else

01:41:58.580 would you like

01:41:59.200 to see

01:41:59.620 emerging on the

01:42:00.380 political front

01:42:01.000 that's going

01:42:01.440 to help us

01:42:02.080 deal with

01:42:02.780 our

01:42:02.960 inadequacies

01:42:03.680 in the

01:42:04.300 second leg

01:42:04.880 of this

01:42:05.300 well the

01:42:06.220 dilemmas

01:42:06.840 of the

01:42:07.120 muddling

01:42:07.440 is going

01:42:07.720 to be

01:42:08.000 is we

01:42:09.080 need a

01:42:09.520 neurosurgeon

01:42:10.240 not a

01:42:10.920 dermatologist

01:42:11.660 and say

01:42:12.700 well get me

01:42:13.140 a neurosurgeon

01:42:13.960 tomorrow

01:42:14.600 and it's

01:42:15.080 going to

01:42:15.320 take time

01:42:15.880 to train

01:42:16.660 people to

01:42:17.000 be a

01:42:17.180 neurosurgeon

01:42:17.700 yeah

01:42:18.040 you can't

01:42:18.700 just

01:42:18.880 you've got

01:42:19.500 to find

01:42:20.420 the expertise

01:42:20.900 where it

01:42:21.260 is and

01:42:21.500 you've got

01:42:21.660 to build

01:42:22.000 the capacity

01:42:22.600 and that's

01:42:23.420 not going

01:42:23.680 to happen

01:42:23.980 overnight

01:42:24.380 and we

01:42:25.240 have to

01:42:25.480 have democratic

01:42:26.160 discourse

01:42:26.820 not bullying

01:42:28.180 that's why

01:42:29.820 I said

01:42:30.060 we're all

01:42:30.360 economic

01:42:30.800 nationalists

01:42:31.380 now

01:42:31.620 that's a

01:42:32.160 calling out

01:42:32.680 of the

01:42:32.880 bullies

01:42:33.360 who've been

01:42:34.540 because we

01:42:35.360 don't do

01:42:35.680 discourse

01:42:36.000 we do

01:42:37.040 bullying

01:42:37.700 in Canada

01:42:38.240 we don't

01:42:38.720 do

01:42:38.860 discourse

01:42:39.160 what do

01:42:39.480 you mean

01:42:39.680 by that

01:42:40.120 you just

01:42:40.880 ad hominem

01:42:41.600 shut people

01:42:42.160 down

01:42:42.560 and state

01:42:43.280 your dogma

01:42:44.240 right

01:42:44.520 you're either

01:42:45.140 you know

01:42:45.980 free markets

01:42:46.540 or you're

01:42:47.440 North Korea

01:42:48.140 and somebody

01:42:49.520 says well

01:42:50.000 you're just 0.66

01:42:50.340 a mean 0.69

01:42:50.840 you know

01:42:52.300 whatever phobe

01:42:53.100 and who

01:42:55.200 just wants

01:42:55.920 to be like

01:42:56.400 MAGA

01:42:56.700 and in fact

01:42:57.800 these are

01:42:58.160 very complex

01:42:58.940 very technical

01:42:59.740 very nuanced

01:43:01.620 realms

01:43:02.160 in a

01:43:02.920 geostrategic

01:43:04.480 era

01:43:04.800 of strategic

01:43:06.100 behavior

01:43:06.600 and the

01:43:07.600 stakes are

01:43:08.120 enormous

01:43:08.500 and what

01:43:09.260 Trump has

01:43:10.060 done is

01:43:10.360 just

01:43:10.620 laid it

01:43:11.480 all bare

01:43:11.960 it's been

01:43:12.560 going on

01:43:12.960 for decades

01:43:13.540 he just

01:43:14.300 turned the

01:43:14.980 heat up

01:43:15.360 really fast

01:43:16.280 I would say

01:43:17.180 irresponsibly fast

01:43:18.340 and I think

01:43:19.160 he's miscalculated

01:43:20.160 because if the

01:43:20.940 world responds

01:43:21.780 strategically

01:43:22.400 to that threat

01:43:24.440 okay so now

01:43:25.000 we have an

01:43:25.420 opportunity

01:43:25.960 we have

01:43:26.420 that opportunity

01:43:27.340 so will

01:43:28.300 we build

01:43:28.680 the capacity

01:43:30.940 in our

01:43:32.500 civil service

01:43:33.100 will the

01:43:33.960 conservatives

01:43:34.540 go through a

01:43:35.180 process

01:43:35.800 of actually

01:43:37.000 debating ideas

01:43:38.000 and figuring

01:43:38.740 out

01:43:39.240 this

01:43:40.060 who should

01:43:41.120 they be

01:43:41.480 discussing

01:43:41.980 this with

01:43:42.720 like where

01:43:43.260 is the

01:43:43.680 expertise

01:43:44.160 that's available

01:43:44.980 there's lots

01:43:45.520 of it in the

01:43:46.000 country but

01:43:46.760 it's

01:43:47.360 they have to

01:43:48.160 be open

01:43:48.540 to ideas

01:43:49.380 and I think

01:43:50.380 who would they

01:43:50.920 invite to speak

01:43:51.900 who would they

01:43:52.800 talk with

01:43:53.380 there's lots

01:43:54.200 of practitioners

01:43:55.380 and there's

01:43:56.520 there's no

01:43:56.960 business councils

01:43:58.120 like in the

01:43:58.680 US

01:43:59.080 our domestic

01:44:00.440 business councils

01:44:01.200 except for the

01:44:01.840 Council of

01:44:02.220 Canadian Innovators

01:44:02.980 are very

01:44:03.740 dominated by

01:44:04.740 foreign interests

01:44:05.700 who are considered

01:44:06.260 Canadian firms

01:44:07.560 but they represent

01:44:08.520 the foreign firms

01:44:09.640 so we need to find

01:44:10.060 people for example

01:44:10.960 who have been

01:44:11.600 successful in the

01:44:12.700 new digital realms

01:44:14.180 let's say

01:44:14.680 who think of Canada first

01:44:15.060 and they're in

01:44:18.260 there in

01:44:18.840 certain think tanks

01:44:20.140 certain universities

01:44:22.240 there are experts

01:44:23.720 out there

01:44:24.100 but it has to

01:44:24.920 begin with

01:44:25.300 leadership that

01:44:26.020 says

01:44:26.420 we're open

01:44:27.360 to this

01:44:27.740 and I gotta

01:44:28.340 because

01:44:29.460 to have the

01:44:30.720 right answer

01:44:31.320 but not have

01:44:31.960 everybody with

01:44:32.620 you is not

01:44:33.080 going to work

01:44:33.580 so I'm not

01:44:35.400 but I don't

01:44:35.820 think we can

01:44:36.280 do a five

01:44:36.800 year royal

01:44:37.220 commission

01:44:37.620 that's because

01:44:38.960 it needs to

01:44:39.780 be something

01:44:40.200 quicker

01:44:40.840 and iterative

01:44:42.100 and so

01:44:44.080 that's the

01:44:45.620 journey

01:44:45.860 but that's

01:44:47.000 the leadership

01:44:47.420 opportunity

01:44:48.060 whichever one

01:44:48.700 of the two

01:44:49.180 articulates that

01:44:50.140 that says

01:44:50.480 this is a

01:44:51.300 two-legged race

01:44:52.140 I need to have

01:44:53.060 updated approaches

01:44:54.020 here

01:44:54.580 and you think

01:44:56.000 we have the

01:44:56.520 expertise in

01:44:57.220 Canada

01:44:57.540 100%

01:44:58.140 why 100%

01:44:59.920 because I deal

01:45:00.660 with them

01:45:01.060 with regularity

01:45:02.000 but they've been

01:45:03.200 pushed to the

01:45:04.160 frims

01:45:04.560 by the people

01:45:05.820 who cooked

01:45:06.500 this strategy

01:45:07.920 35 years ago

01:45:09.400 35 years ago

01:45:11.260 and they're

01:45:12.160 fighting on

01:45:12.780 all they can

01:45:13.540 to protect

01:45:13.960 their legacy

01:45:14.640 of getting

01:45:16.180 it right

01:45:16.820 in spite of

01:45:17.560 this Canadian

01:45:18.460 resource curse

01:45:19.440 and I'm

01:45:20.900 saying we are

01:45:21.480 where we are

01:45:22.220 because of

01:45:24.080 this flaw

01:45:24.780 and you need

01:45:25.580 to bring in

01:45:26.220 new voices

01:45:26.940 and I've

01:45:28.000 funded a new

01:45:28.700 initiative called

01:45:29.520 Public Policy

01:45:30.420 Shield Initiative

01:45:31.160 much more for

01:45:32.000 young scholars

01:45:32.800 and young thinkers

01:45:33.960 to come in

01:45:34.660 and architect

01:45:35.760 the future

01:45:36.420 that they want

01:45:37.520 that they're

01:45:38.440 going to inherit

01:45:38.880 and they're

01:45:39.120 going to live in

01:45:39.760 and I think

01:45:40.580 if Pierre Polyev

01:45:41.920 or Carney

01:45:43.360 chooses to

01:45:44.400 embrace

01:45:44.960 these true

01:45:45.980 experts

01:45:46.700 to design

01:45:48.840 a proper

01:45:49.300 two-legged race

01:45:50.320 then

01:45:51.300 I think

01:45:52.700 we're going

01:45:52.900 to be okay

01:45:53.620 maybe better

01:45:54.840 than okay

01:45:55.420 much better

01:45:56.320 than okay

01:45:56.720 but I get

01:45:57.880 very nervous

01:45:58.700 about a more

01:45:59.260 efficient Trudeau

01:46:00.140 and the

01:46:01.220 hubristic

01:46:02.420 representation

01:46:03.720 of knowing

01:46:04.380 things that

01:46:04.860 you don't

01:46:05.620 and a little

01:46:07.200 humility

01:46:07.760 with openness

01:46:08.480 to ideas

01:46:09.280 and a

01:46:10.740 communication

01:46:11.260 structure

01:46:11.720 with Canadians

01:46:12.340 that says

01:46:12.660 I'm involving

01:46:13.320 new smart

01:46:14.380 voices

01:46:14.800 I've got

01:46:15.540 good leaders

01:46:16.140 who are

01:46:16.580 buying into

01:46:17.140 this

01:46:17.380 I'm open

01:46:18.440 to this

01:46:18.980 stuff

01:46:19.300 we're going

01:46:20.160 to be on

01:46:20.500 this journey

01:46:20.940 together

01:46:21.440 I think

01:46:23.100 our future

01:46:23.860 can be

01:46:24.380 the best

01:46:25.480 yet to

01:46:26.140 come

01:46:26.540 but if

01:46:27.480 we fail

01:46:28.240 in that

01:46:28.840 I think

01:46:29.800 the failure

01:46:30.320 will be

01:46:31.140 marked

01:46:32.740 yeah

01:46:33.560 really bad

01:46:34.140 okay

01:46:34.580 so let

01:46:35.080 let me

01:46:36.160 summarize

01:46:37.120 and tell

01:46:37.900 me if

01:46:38.220 I've got

01:46:38.560 it right

01:46:38.940 well

01:46:39.760 your

01:46:41.100 diagnosis

01:46:42.420 is

01:46:43.140 what

01:46:44.900 it's

01:46:45.620 it's dire

01:46:46.340 in that

01:46:46.960 the problems

01:46:47.580 that Canadians

01:46:48.240 face

01:46:48.840 are of

01:46:49.620 sufficient

01:46:50.080 magnitude

01:46:50.660 to

01:46:51.660 be felt

01:46:52.940 the fact

01:46:53.880 that we

01:46:54.160 make 60

01:46:54.900 cents

01:46:55.260 for the

01:46:55.600 American's

01:46:56.160 dollar

01:46:56.400 is making

01:46:57.420 itself

01:46:57.800 manifest

01:46:58.260 in the

01:46:59.420 lives of

01:47:00.000 ordinary

01:47:00.340 Canadians

01:47:00.900 in dreadful

01:47:01.680 ways

01:47:01.960 one in

01:47:02.760 foreign food

01:47:03.420 banks

01:47:03.780 and getting

01:47:04.160 worse

01:47:04.500 and getting

01:47:04.980 worse

01:47:05.320 right

01:47:05.580 the trajectory

01:47:06.220 is downhill

01:47:06.780 and we

01:47:08.440 missed the

01:47:09.880 boat 30

01:47:10.500 years ago

01:47:11.080 and like

01:47:11.620 and that

01:47:12.880 sounds pretty

01:47:13.440 bad but

01:47:13.860 the situation

01:47:14.860 you

01:47:15.040 missed the

01:47:15.760 boat in

01:47:16.200 the data

01:47:16.560 driven

01:47:16.860 economy

01:47:17.240 of AI

01:47:17.640 so extreme

01:47:19.000 that we're

01:47:19.800 actually inviting

01:47:20.460 Google to

01:47:21.080 own the AI

01:47:21.900 own the IP

01:47:22.820 and control

01:47:23.900 the citizens

01:47:24.500 and have the

01:47:25.120 control of

01:47:25.520 security

01:47:25.800 and get all

01:47:26.680 the wealth

01:47:27.180 and economic

01:47:27.740 effects from

01:47:28.520 our largest

01:47:28.960 city

01:47:29.260 yeah

01:47:29.520 right

01:47:29.780 okay

01:47:30.200 okay

01:47:30.620 now

01:47:30.960 that could 0.68

01:47:32.100 have been

01:47:32.400 followed by

01:47:33.000 a conclusion

01:47:33.580 that we're

01:47:34.100 so far

01:47:34.560 behind

01:47:34.960 that it's

01:47:36.000 hopeless

01:47:36.400 but that

01:47:37.200 isn't the

01:47:37.740 conclusion

01:47:38.160 that you've

01:47:38.720 drawn

01:47:39.000 the conclusion

01:47:39.560 that you've

01:47:40.160 drawn

01:47:40.420 is that

01:47:41.040 Canada

01:47:41.960 is in

01:47:42.580 fact

01:47:42.920 intrinsically

01:47:43.900 a wealthy

01:47:44.360 country

01:47:44.900 with regard

01:47:46.260 to the

01:47:46.600 first leg

01:47:47.240 resource

01:47:47.860 manufacturing

01:47:48.720 finance

01:47:49.300 the traditional

01:47:49.940 Canadian

01:47:50.380 economy

01:47:50.720 but also

01:47:51.520 with regard

01:47:52.100 to the

01:47:52.480 second

01:47:52.800 is that

01:47:53.380 we do

01:47:53.720 have the

01:47:54.140 expertise

01:47:54.600 here

01:47:55.020 technically

01:47:55.820 we in

01:47:57.160 principle

01:47:57.560 have even

01:47:58.360 the expertise

01:47:58.980 with regards

01:47:59.860 to legislation

01:48:01.240 and governance

01:48:01.900 and negotiation

01:48:02.780 but that

01:48:03.620 because we've

01:48:04.180 had a narrow

01:48:04.680 focus on

01:48:05.420 something like

01:48:06.020 1970s

01:48:07.260 pre-reformation

01:48:09.100 freedman

01:48:09.960 free market

01:48:11.240 rhetoric

01:48:11.960 we haven't

01:48:12.720 taken advantage

01:48:13.320 of any of

01:48:13.860 that

01:48:14.040 quite the

01:48:14.720 contrary

01:48:15.180 but we

01:48:16.120 could

01:48:16.460 and we

01:48:17.100 have the

01:48:17.560 resources

01:48:18.080 because

01:48:18.560 the financial

01:48:19.520 resources

01:48:20.000 because we

01:48:20.420 do have

01:48:21.060 liquid assets

01:48:22.520 to deploy

01:48:23.320 in this

01:48:23.660 country

01:48:23.900 we don't

01:48:24.300 we don't

01:48:24.760 we don't

01:48:25.500 invest them

01:48:25.960 here

01:48:26.120 because the

01:48:26.560 business

01:48:26.820 case is

01:48:27.240 not there

01:48:27.700 but we

01:48:28.120 could create

01:48:28.580 that

01:48:28.840 through

01:48:29.320 pension

01:48:29.640 funds

01:48:29.960 and

01:48:30.140 Canadian

01:48:30.500 savings

01:48:30.980 I think

01:48:31.460 we have

01:48:31.820 to

01:48:31.960 we have

01:48:32.920 to think

01:48:33.220 about

01:48:33.400 what we

01:48:33.680 do

01:48:33.820 spend

01:48:34.080 our

01:48:34.240 personal

01:48:34.620 time

01:48:35.060 and

01:48:35.240 money

01:48:35.480 on

01:48:36.000 and

01:48:36.420 find

01:48:36.700 out

01:48:36.860 that

01:48:36.960 we

01:48:37.060 have

01:48:37.260 more

01:48:37.480 of that

01:48:37.740 I've

01:48:38.420 had

01:48:38.700 as an

01:48:39.060 example

01:48:39.520 considerable

01:48:40.580 interplay

01:48:41.180 with

01:48:41.560 Premier

01:48:42.220 Smith

01:48:42.680 of

01:48:42.860 Alberta

01:48:43.240 and

01:48:43.920 Premier

01:48:44.320 Canoe

01:48:44.740 of

01:48:45.040 Manitoba

01:48:46.180 NDP

01:48:46.740 and

01:48:46.960 Conservatives

01:48:47.500 extremely

01:48:48.320 impressed

01:48:49.160 by how

01:48:49.660 they want

01:48:50.120 to chart

01:48:50.580 this kind

01:48:51.400 of value

01:48:51.860 added

01:48:52.200 future

01:48:52.620 for their

01:48:53.020 economy

01:48:53.460 I think

01:48:54.520 I think

01:48:56.360 Manitoba

01:48:56.820 has more

01:48:57.420 critical

01:48:57.840 minerals

01:48:58.280 than

01:48:58.920 Ontario

01:48:59.500 does

01:48:59.800 one of

01:49:00.060 the greatest

01:49:00.420 reserves

01:49:00.900 in the

01:49:01.200 world

01:49:01.460 and

01:49:01.940 they

01:49:02.060 want

01:49:02.260 to

01:49:02.360 do

01:49:02.500 value

01:49:02.840 added

01:49:03.080 strategies

01:49:03.880 Premier

01:49:04.560 Smith

01:49:04.860 also

01:49:05.260 wants

01:49:05.480 to

01:49:05.580 do

01:49:05.660 value

01:49:05.920 added

01:49:06.140 strategies

01:49:06.660 in

01:49:06.880 her

01:49:07.160 economy

01:49:08.000 with

01:49:08.320 energy

01:49:08.740 in

01:49:08.920 the realms

01:49:09.280 we talked

01:49:09.720 about

01:49:10.080 in

01:49:10.340 agriculture

01:49:10.920 and

01:49:11.220 healthcare

01:49:11.760 and AI

01:49:12.540 and IP

01:49:13.180 they

01:49:13.920 see the

01:49:14.220 potential

01:49:14.640 they see

01:49:15.040 what they

01:49:15.300 give

01:49:15.520 away

01:49:15.940 and

01:49:16.640 same

01:49:16.880 with

01:49:17.060 Premier

01:49:17.340 Canoe

01:49:17.660 so

01:49:17.960 I

01:49:18.480 see

01:49:18.860 the

01:49:19.020 political

01:49:19.300 leadership

01:49:19.760 of the

01:49:20.060 subnational

01:49:20.680 I see

01:49:22.300 green shoots

01:49:23.080 international

01:49:24.100 or national

01:49:25.140 I see all the

01:49:26.280 fundamentals are there

01:49:27.560 you have

01:49:28.420 all the spices

01:49:29.720 in the spice rack

01:49:30.640 if you choose

01:49:31.620 to cook

01:49:32.140 a good meal

01:49:33.280 so yeah

01:49:34.360 I think the

01:49:34.900 potential is there

01:49:35.720 right so we

01:49:36.220 have great

01:49:36.700 potential

01:49:37.280 upside

01:49:38.080 and

01:49:38.640 pretty dire

01:49:40.100 potential

01:49:40.960 downside

01:49:41.600 yeah

01:49:41.900 right

01:49:42.600 and it's

01:49:43.080 time at

01:49:43.700 the moment

01:49:44.120 for a

01:49:45.140 choice

01:49:45.500 at that

01:49:46.140 fork in

01:49:46.940 the road

01:49:47.240 that we

01:49:47.560 should

01:49:47.760 take

01:49:48.180 and thank

01:49:48.900 you

01:49:49.060 President

01:49:49.740 Trump

01:49:50.060 for finally

01:49:50.700 forcing

01:49:51.120 the issue

01:49:51.580 great

01:49:52.620 well that's

01:49:53.060 a very

01:49:53.500 good place

01:49:54.300 to end

01:49:54.660 Jim

01:49:54.880 and so

01:49:55.260 for those

01:49:55.880 of you

01:49:56.100 who are

01:49:56.300 watching

01:49:56.660 and listening

01:49:57.180 I'm going

01:49:57.780 to turn

01:49:58.140 as you

01:49:58.520 know

01:49:58.780 to a

01:49:59.560 continued

01:49:59.920 discussion

01:50:00.500 on the

01:50:01.220 Daily Wire

01:50:01.640 side

01:50:01.940 and we're

01:50:02.540 going to

01:50:02.720 change

01:50:03.240 pace

01:50:03.680 there

01:50:03.960 I went

01:50:04.720 down

01:50:05.000 with

01:50:05.240 Jim

01:50:05.580 last

01:50:06.440 oh well

01:50:07.160 a couple

01:50:07.440 of times

01:50:07.840 in the

01:50:08.100 last year

01:50:08.660 or so

01:50:09.040 to talk

01:50:10.260 about

01:50:10.680 identity

01:50:11.600 in the

01:50:12.380 digital

01:50:12.780 age

01:50:13.320 and that's

01:50:13.700 not something

01:50:14.100 we covered

01:50:14.540 at all

01:50:14.900 today

01:50:15.240 in this

01:50:15.740 side

01:50:15.940 of the

01:50:16.120 podcast

01:50:16.480 what

01:50:17.860 the

01:50:18.780 nature

01:50:20.020 of your

01:50:20.660 existence

01:50:21.280 and identity

01:50:22.040 in a

01:50:22.380 digital

01:50:22.680 age

01:50:23.020 is

01:50:23.460 has

01:50:24.740 become

01:50:25.200 mysterious

01:50:26.220 partly

01:50:27.120 because

01:50:27.560 the

01:50:28.140 behavioral

01:50:28.920 traces

01:50:29.520 that you

01:50:30.120 leave

01:50:30.500 as a

01:50:30.840 consequence

01:50:31.260 of your

01:50:32.040 actions

01:50:33.560 your

01:50:33.840 interactions

01:50:34.320 online

01:50:35.040 define

01:50:36.280 you

01:50:36.560 in ways

01:50:37.020 that you

01:50:37.400 can barely

01:50:38.060 begin to

01:50:38.520 even

01:50:38.740 understand

01:50:39.160 there's a

01:50:39.760 virtual

01:50:40.740 clone

01:50:41.460 of you

01:50:41.960 in the

01:50:42.760 abstract

01:50:43.200 world

01:50:43.680 and you

01:50:44.020 have

01:50:44.240 absolutely

01:50:45.020 no right

01:50:45.700 to that

01:50:46.280 part of

01:50:47.820 your

01:50:48.040 existence

01:50:48.560 and it's

01:50:49.400 terrible

01:50:49.820 it's terribly

01:50:50.460 dangerous

01:50:50.920 and it's

01:50:51.580 being capitalized

01:50:52.400 on in a

01:50:53.100 variety of

01:50:53.540 ways that

01:50:53.920 aren't good

01:50:54.460 by legal

01:50:55.940 and illegal

01:50:56.600 actors

01:50:57.060 alike

01:50:57.420 and Jim

01:50:58.160 and I

01:50:58.380 have started

01:50:58.780 to with

01:50:59.420 other people

01:50:59.960 have started

01:51:00.320 to think

01:51:00.760 through

01:51:01.160 hopefully

01:51:01.980 at somewhat

01:51:02.560 of a

01:51:02.840 deep

01:51:03.060 level

01:51:03.380 the

01:51:03.940 problems

01:51:04.420 of

01:51:04.840 ownership

01:51:05.640 of your

01:51:06.240 own

01:51:06.580 being

01:51:07.100 in a

01:51:07.460 digital

01:51:07.780 age

01:51:08.220 and we

01:51:08.940 flesh

01:51:09.320 some of

01:51:09.880 our ideas

01:51:10.360 out when

01:51:10.820 we've

01:51:11.060 gone down

01:51:11.460 to

01:51:11.760 Washington

01:51:12.660 and so

01:51:13.100 I think

01:51:13.440 we'll spend

01:51:14.060 20 minutes

01:51:15.100 to half an

01:51:15.680 hour talking

01:51:16.220 about that

01:51:16.860 on the

01:51:17.400 Daily Wire

01:51:17.840 side

01:51:18.160 so join

01:51:19.260 us there

01:51:19.700 Jim

01:51:20.160 thank you

01:51:21.420 very much

01:51:21.960 pleasure

01:51:22.500 my friend

01:51:22.840 talking to

01:51:23.140 you

01:51:23.200 and I

01:51:23.620 really

01:51:23.820 appreciate it

01:51:24.420 hopefully

01:51:25.140 everybody

01:51:25.880 you sad

01:51:26.900 Canucks

01:51:27.440 that have

01:51:27.760 been listening

01:51:28.540 to this

01:51:28.980 interchange

01:51:29.500 have a

01:51:30.120 little bit

01:51:30.420 better

01:51:30.680 understanding

01:51:31.280 as I

01:51:31.760 do now

01:51:32.240 about

01:51:32.580 what we

01:51:33.740 have done

01:51:34.340 wrong

01:51:34.780 foolishly

01:51:35.580 blindly 0.95

01:51:36.140 presumptively

01:51:37.140 the opportunity

01:51:39.060 that bull 0.89

01:51:40.260 in the China

01:51:40.760 shop

01:51:41.100 Trump

01:51:41.440 has presented

01:51:42.040 us with

01:51:42.560 and the

01:51:42.880 fact that

01:51:43.340 we actually

01:51:44.600 have the

01:51:45.060 opportunity

01:51:45.480 to make

01:51:46.000 this country

01:51:46.580 roar

01:51:46.960 if we

01:51:47.460 choose wisely

01:51:49.080 and so

01:51:49.840 that seems

01:51:50.560 to be

01:51:50.960 the appropriate

01:51:51.760 thing to do

01:51:52.580 so good luck

01:51:54.160 to us

01:51:54.480 on that front

01:51:55.140 thanks again

01:51:55.900 sir

01:51:56.240 pleasure

01:51:56.840 you

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - March 17, 2025

530. Failure or Success in the Time of Trump ｜ Jim Balsillie

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