The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 534. How Some Muslim Countries Navigate Extremism ｜ Mark Siljander

00:00:00.000 I mean, obviously, during the 60s, there was a huge rebellion in the United States

00:00:04.360 against the use of the military in fighting the communists in Vietnam.

00:00:10.000 As I matured and learned more about the absolute horrors of communism,

00:00:14.560 how many people in Cambodia died when the communists took over?

00:00:17.660 Four million in the killing fields?

00:00:19.480 At least.

00:00:19.780 Something like that.

00:00:20.660 This is extraordinary naivete to think one could go to Iraq,

00:00:25.400 or even Syria, for that matter, and force an American, U.S.-style democracy 0.50

00:00:32.980 on a people group that is broken into different faith groups,

00:00:38.420 Muslim, Shiite, Sunni.

00:00:40.740 It was completely absurd.

00:00:42.600 47 of 50 Muslim-majority countries are not democracies. 0.81

00:00:48.660 And there is a 4th or 5th century copy of what they call the Peshitta text.

00:00:53.940 And Peshitta means simple and straightforward.

00:00:56.660 And it has the Aramaic language of Jesus.

00:00:59.320 So I began reading that and then reading the Koran.

00:01:03.560 And while I had many nice things to say about Jesus,

00:01:07.020 it also said things, for example, he's not the son of God.

00:01:11.460 He wasn't crucified.

00:01:13.400 I felt, how does one say this?

00:01:16.520 We were assured by his opposition that he was a warmonger

00:01:21.140 and that you could imagine him voted in high school

00:01:23.640 as most likely to start World War III.

00:01:25.900 But, you know, one of the things we might always remind ourselves

00:01:28.360 is that we might not be able to recognize a true peacemaker

00:01:32.020 when one comes along.

00:01:33.420 But he shouldn't be trifled with.

00:01:35.160 That's the other side of Trump.

00:01:36.720 Right.

00:01:37.240 But that might also be absolutely necessary.

00:01:40.260 Okay, so back to Palestine. 0.50

00:01:41.800 I had the privilege today of sitting down with Mark Silgender,

00:02:02.040 a former congressman.

00:02:04.040 Mark wrote a book in 2008 called A Deadly Misunderstanding,

00:02:07.740 A Congressman's Quest to Bridge the Muslim-Christian Divide.

00:02:13.000 Now, when Mark entered Congress decades ago,

00:02:16.880 he was a pretty straight-laced and rather hawk-like,

00:02:20.400 so war-like, evangelical Christian 0.91

00:02:22.920 with a pretty pronounced anti-Muslim stance,

00:02:26.880 pro-Christian, anti-Muslim stance,

00:02:29.020 very partisan in the religious sense.

00:02:32.020 And he had an epiphany while serving as a congressman

00:02:34.980 that he was not loving his enemies, so to speak,

00:02:39.180 in the proper Christian manner.

00:02:41.200 And that sent him on a quest

00:02:43.340 to learn about the commonalities of belief

00:02:48.700 that could, no, do unite the Muslim, Jewish, and Christian world.

00:02:55.340 Now, he particularly concentrated on Islam and Christianity.

00:02:59.880 And we discussed the consequences of that quest

00:03:06.100 theoretically, conceptually, and also practically.

00:03:10.860 Now, I'm interested in this because it seems to me

00:03:13.180 that Islam and Christianity, Judaism,

00:03:16.940 have been at each other's throats for hundreds of years.

00:03:21.120 And the situation in many ways hasn't changed.

00:03:24.760 Maybe it's even more crucial now than it ever has been.

00:03:27.360 And I've watched the Abraham Accords unfold 0.97

00:03:30.660 over the last six or seven years,

00:03:32.820 and there's a real pathway to peace there.

00:03:36.100 It's partly predicated on the United Arab Emirates'

00:03:40.300 attempts to bridge the tri-faith gap.

00:03:44.160 And Mark Siljander is operating at that nexus.

00:03:48.080 And so I really wanted to talk to him

00:03:49.700 about what he discovered

00:03:51.580 and how he managed to broker peace, by the way,

00:03:55.300 in six major international conflicts,

00:03:57.800 which we also talked about in some detail,

00:04:00.600 especially with regards to Darfur and Sudan.

00:04:04.220 We also touched upon the objection

00:04:07.760 of the neocon war hawks,

00:04:10.320 of which I suppose he once was one,

00:04:13.500 their opposition to his peacemaking ministration,

00:04:19.140 so to speak,

00:04:19.720 and why that opposition emerged.

00:04:21.800 He was accused of being a traitor, for example,

00:04:24.380 by the neocons who were hell-bent on regime change

00:04:27.960 as their answer to how to bring a longer-lasting

00:04:33.540 and more stable peace to the world.

00:04:35.480 Anyways, we walked through all of that.

00:04:37.580 It's one of the most,

00:04:38.580 I gotta say,

00:04:39.180 it's one of the most fascinating podcasts I've ever done.

00:04:41.680 It has a lovely narrative arc.

00:04:43.640 It ends absolutely perfectly.

00:04:46.440 Fascinating personal story.

00:04:47.960 Very interesting conceptually.

00:04:51.020 And what would you say?

00:04:53.040 Compelling with regards to Silgender's ability 1.00

00:04:57.440 to shed light on what actually goes on

00:05:00.160 behind the scenes,

00:05:01.920 internationally and domestically.

00:05:04.980 Join us.

00:05:06.900 All right, Congressman Silgender,

00:05:08.960 I wanted to talk to you today

00:05:10.820 for a variety of reasons,

00:05:12.940 hopefully all of which we'll go into,

00:05:14.680 but I think we should start

00:05:16.060 with the topic of your 2008 book,

00:05:19.620 which is a deadly misunderstanding,

00:05:21.900 A Congressman's Quest

00:05:23.240 to Bridge the Muslim-Christian Divide.

00:05:27.420 Well, there's lots of places

00:05:28.820 we could go with that.

00:05:30.940 Why was this your quest?

00:05:32.780 Why did you think you were the person to do it?

00:05:36.540 Why do you think a bridge can be built?

00:05:39.180 What's the nature of the divide?

00:05:40.800 All of that,

00:05:41.540 those are things we could spend an hour

00:05:43.260 or two hours on each of those subtopics,

00:05:45.700 but let's start with,

00:05:47.760 well, why was this your problem?

00:05:50.680 Well, it wasn't my problem, Jordan.

00:05:54.020 When in Congress,

00:05:55.060 they made speeches denouncing Islam,

00:05:59.120 the Koran,

00:06:00.760 and made external speeches as well.

00:06:03.360 I didn't like Muslims generally. 1.00

00:06:05.740 Even though I lived in Michigan

00:06:07.100 and Detroit had a very large population

00:06:09.940 of Muslims and Arabs,

00:06:12.060 and I had an epiphany.

00:06:14.060 Believe it or not,

00:06:14.620 in Congress,

00:06:15.280 it's possible for the spirit

00:06:17.360 to actually speak

00:06:19.740 or hit hard a person

00:06:21.880 within that context.

00:06:23.780 And I claimed to be,

00:06:26.940 as an evangelical at the time,

00:06:29.540 a follower of Jesus.

00:06:32.160 And the epiphany was very basic,

00:06:34.520 elementary,

00:06:35.380 and simple.

00:06:36.520 If you're really following Jesus,

00:06:39.320 why do you disdain

00:06:40.340 a whole group of people,

00:06:42.600 a whole faith group

00:06:43.560 of 1.5 or 6 billion?

00:06:46.220 Is that what Jesus did

00:06:47.680 with the Samaritan woman,

00:06:49.840 the tax collector,

00:06:51.300 those that could have been 0.88

00:06:52.280 prostitutes and others. 0.99

00:06:54.140 He and Jesus welcomed all 0.98

00:06:56.120 and loved them.

00:06:57.680 And love doesn't always,

00:06:58.760 as you know me,

00:06:59.340 like or agree with.

00:07:02.080 So I began studying the Koran.

00:07:05.500 Very simple.

00:07:05.900 This is when?

00:07:06.380 When were you making

00:07:07.140 the anti-Muslim speeches?

00:07:08.680 This is in my last term in Congress.

00:07:11.240 And this is one of the reasons

00:07:12.260 it was my last term.

00:07:14.840 What year?

00:07:15.520 What year was it?

00:07:16.360 That's way back in the late 80s.

00:07:18.840 I was in my 20s and early 30s.

00:07:21.280 Okay.

00:07:21.480 Okay.

00:07:22.200 So in the 1980s,

00:07:23.460 so you were operating

00:07:24.800 as a rather straight-laced

00:07:28.360 traditional evangelical

00:07:29.600 in the 1980s?

00:07:31.480 And a neoconservative.

00:07:33.120 And a neoconservative.

00:07:34.220 Yes.

00:07:34.580 You should define neoconservative

00:07:36.100 for everybody

00:07:36.640 who's watching and listening.

00:07:37.940 Yes.

00:07:38.220 That doesn't mean

00:07:39.000 you're a Republican

00:07:39.700 or Democrat particularly.

00:07:42.140 But for example,

00:07:43.440 Cheney,

00:07:44.620 Dick Cheney and Rumsfeld

00:07:45.960 during the Bush administration

00:07:47.480 were considered

00:07:48.240 neoconservatives.

00:07:49.660 My definition is

00:07:51.560 they're avid hawks.

00:07:54.560 They typically want

00:07:55.940 to change regimes

00:07:57.260 rather than cooperate

00:07:58.980 and work with regimes

00:08:00.340 by force if necessary.

00:08:02.380 I would say the Iraq war 1.00

00:08:04.860 is emblematic

00:08:06.700 of what a neoconservative,

00:08:10.440 they don't mind lying,

00:08:12.640 cheating, 0.97

00:08:13.880 being scondrels, 0.98

00:08:15.640 if you will,

00:08:16.360 causing wars

00:08:17.360 if their ends are met.

00:08:19.600 And the ends are?

00:08:20.260 And that's exactly

00:08:21.660 the question.

00:08:22.580 The ends are democracy.

00:08:25.480 Presumably,

00:08:26.280 democracy is some

00:08:27.560 of their deity.

00:08:29.760 In that,

00:08:30.780 their hope

00:08:31.360 that if we show 1.00

00:08:32.440 these poor ignorant 1.00

00:08:33.720 people overseas 1.00

00:08:34.840 how marvelous

00:08:36.120 democracy is,

00:08:37.540 they'll beg for it 0.99

00:08:38.660 and the radical Muslims 1.00

00:08:40.180 will denounce

00:08:41.240 radical Islam 0.85

00:08:42.360 to embrace democracy.

00:08:44.160 That was the hope

00:08:45.100 that drove the Iraq war,

00:08:46.420 for example.

00:08:46.980 And I remember

00:08:47.780 in the early stages

00:08:48.680 of that,

00:08:49.640 there was a delusion,

00:08:51.820 I would say,

00:08:52.620 that the democratic

00:08:54.600 distributors,

00:08:57.780 the distributors

00:08:58.680 of democracy

00:08:59.500 that constituted

00:09:00.460 the American military

00:09:01.500 would be welcomed

00:09:02.480 with open hands,

00:09:04.320 arms,

00:09:04.780 and when the dictator

00:09:06.220 tyrant was deposed,

00:09:07.720 the freedom-loving people

00:09:08.760 would rise up

00:09:09.900 and democracy

00:09:10.960 would prevail,

00:09:12.180 which is,

00:09:13.120 you might say,

00:09:14.660 a somewhat naive view

00:09:16.040 of how democracy

00:09:16.900 works.

00:09:17.560 And I know

00:09:18.460 that's a bit of a parody,

00:09:19.740 but that was my sense

00:09:21.120 of the sentiment,

00:09:22.740 the belief.

00:09:23.340 And so,

00:09:24.020 the neocons,

00:09:25.160 they were convinced,

00:09:26.580 let me see if I get it right,

00:09:27.920 the neocons were convinced

00:09:29.060 that if they put

00:09:29.840 the might of the U.S. military

00:09:32.020 and the willingness

00:09:33.060 to engage in warfare

00:09:34.320 behind their

00:09:35.400 pro-democracy words

00:09:37.360 and threatened

00:09:38.860 the stability

00:09:39.560 of authoritarian regimes

00:09:41.140 that there'd be

00:09:41.720 the possibility

00:09:42.400 of eliciting something

00:09:43.360 like, say,

00:09:44.160 a genuine Arab spring

00:09:45.660 or a genuine

00:09:46.360 transformation

00:09:47.240 among the freedom-loving

00:09:48.880 people of the Middle East,

00:09:50.220 something like that.

00:09:51.380 Am I parodying it

00:09:52.440 too brutally

00:09:53.880 or is that

00:09:54.580 a reasonable summary?

00:09:55.900 And it's critical to note

00:09:59.440 that for several

00:10:02.000 administrations,

00:10:03.440 including a Democrat,

00:10:05.260 there were regime

00:10:06.080 change policies.

00:10:07.260 And in the Bush administration,

00:10:09.420 there was a secret policy

00:10:11.220 revealed by

00:10:12.140 General Wesley Clark

00:10:14.000 some years ago,

00:10:15.940 much post-Bush's

00:10:17.720 two terms in office,

00:10:20.480 that there were

00:10:21.420 seven countries

00:10:22.480 they wanted

00:10:23.280 a regime change.

00:10:25.240 And they would do,

00:10:27.260 as you know,

00:10:27.880 anything to achieve it.

00:10:29.840 So,

00:10:30.720 I felt

00:10:32.160 it would be critical

00:10:33.580 since most of these countries

00:10:35.060 were Muslim countries.

00:10:36.400 And almost

00:10:37.960 all conflicts,

00:10:39.040 which are about

00:10:39.840 120 at the moment,

00:10:41.960 globally,

00:10:43.240 have to do with

00:10:44.220 Muslims,

00:10:44.880 Christians,

00:10:45.360 and or Jews.

00:10:46.760 That perhaps

00:10:47.460 a logical thing

00:10:48.700 would be to study

00:10:49.920 the Semitic 0.92

00:10:50.720 holy books

00:10:51.660 behind each.

00:10:52.500 Yeah, right.

00:10:53.380 And then see if

00:10:54.280 there's more common ground

00:10:55.760 than we have known

00:10:57.240 heretofore.

00:10:58.720 So, I thought, well...

00:10:59.600 Okay, and was that

00:11:00.240 part of the epiphany?

00:11:02.160 Yes, it was.

00:11:03.040 Okay, so how did...

00:11:03.840 Okay, so how...

00:11:05.400 So, let's go back

00:11:06.980 to the biographical details,

00:11:08.380 and then I'll go

00:11:08.920 into the neocon issue

00:11:10.640 again with you.

00:11:11.600 Well, you said that,

00:11:13.340 you know,

00:11:13.580 your initial stance,

00:11:14.740 this was back in the 1980s,

00:11:16.180 was rather

00:11:16.760 traditional,

00:11:18.100 straight-laced,

00:11:18.800 evangelical,

00:11:19.680 and you regarded

00:11:21.000 yourself as

00:11:21.940 an advocate

00:11:22.960 for Christianity

00:11:24.780 in the face

00:11:26.020 of something

00:11:27.080 approximating

00:11:27.860 Muslim error 1.00

00:11:28.820 and enmity. 0.60

00:11:29.460 And then when you

00:11:30.140 were in Congress,

00:11:31.280 you realized that

00:11:32.220 there was something

00:11:33.080 wrong with that

00:11:33.920 stance,

00:11:35.480 even perhaps

00:11:36.700 from a Christian

00:11:37.300 perspective,

00:11:38.520 but you also had

00:11:39.800 a conceptual realization,

00:11:41.320 which was

00:11:41.760 there is some

00:11:42.880 commonality of text

00:11:44.180 between the three

00:11:45.060 major Abrahamic faiths,

00:11:46.640 and if you analyzed

00:11:47.600 that commonality,

00:11:49.380 you'd be able to

00:11:50.380 start to establish

00:11:52.180 ground on which

00:11:53.060 negotiation for peace

00:11:54.380 might be established.

00:11:55.540 Is that about right?

00:11:56.520 Well, I didn't realize

00:11:57.800 there was so much

00:11:58.560 common ground at the time,

00:11:59.580 but that was the ambition,

00:12:01.400 and it was also

00:12:02.760 being a hawk.

00:12:05.660 You know,

00:12:05.840 we were fighting

00:12:06.780 communism at the time

00:12:08.160 during the Soviet Empire,

00:12:10.200 and as young, 0.99

00:12:11.440 naive, foolish, 1.00

00:12:12.980 and I was given 1.00

00:12:14.200 the chairmanship

00:12:14.940 of the Africa subcommittee

00:12:16.500 thinking that I was

00:12:17.640 important,

00:12:18.160 and it turned out to be

00:12:19.000 they wanted to use

00:12:20.140 someone young

00:12:20.820 and naive in a dupe.

00:12:23.400 So certain people

00:12:24.880 could sort of use me

00:12:26.220 with certain

00:12:27.740 legislative efforts.

00:12:30.280 So I promoted

00:12:31.340 anti-communist guerrillas

00:12:33.760 supporting guns

00:12:35.100 and arms

00:12:35.780 and propped up

00:12:37.400 despot regimes

00:12:38.740 that were

00:12:39.260 anti-communist regimes.

00:12:41.020 Right, right.

00:12:41.620 And it's,

00:12:42.320 in the epiphany,

00:12:43.160 this is so contrary

00:12:44.640 to what the Messiah

00:12:46.280 taught

00:12:47.640 and who the Messiah

00:12:49.560 was

00:12:50.220 as a

00:12:52.000 example of love

00:12:53.840 and compassion

00:12:54.720 and mercy,

00:12:55.720 not killing

00:12:56.940 and hate 0.82

00:12:57.580 and arming.

00:12:58.460 So it was

00:12:59.440 an overwhelming

00:13:00.520 feeling of emotions.

00:13:03.840 I actually

00:13:04.520 teared up

00:13:05.220 on the floor

00:13:05.740 of the Congress,

00:13:06.420 and I'm not one

00:13:07.140 often given

00:13:08.120 to tears like that.

00:13:09.700 And it was just

00:13:10.640 so powerful,

00:13:12.040 and I can't tell you

00:13:12.940 where it came from,

00:13:14.180 but it was during

00:13:14.840 the apartheid

00:13:16.160 debate

00:13:16.940 in South Africa

00:13:18.080 where there were

00:13:19.620 bills to condemn

00:13:20.860 the white regime

00:13:21.900 at the time.

00:13:23.100 And I was in charge

00:13:24.220 of it,

00:13:24.720 and I sat there

00:13:25.720 in the House floor

00:13:27.340 by myself

00:13:29.500 and my African-American aide

00:13:31.360 trying to defend

00:13:33.180 a bill

00:13:34.580 that is a weak, 0.99

00:13:37.360 useless, 0.97

00:13:38.520 toothless bill 0.99

00:13:39.560 to condemn

00:13:40.500 the white regime

00:13:41.440 in South Africa

00:13:42.380 as the Democrats,

00:13:43.680 Republicans,

00:13:44.560 came up with

00:13:45.240 an agreement.

00:13:46.400 My job was

00:13:47.240 to push it through.

00:13:48.760 And the debates

00:13:49.580 were,

00:13:50.560 for several days,

00:13:51.480 I'm looking,

00:13:53.460 there are 84 Democrats

00:13:55.040 on the Democrat side

00:13:57.120 and Republican.

00:13:58.240 I'm looking at my side,

00:14:00.060 it was just me,

00:14:01.660 my aide and I,

00:14:02.680 that was it.

00:14:03.560 No one else.

00:14:05.160 And it was obvious

00:14:06.000 to me then,

00:14:07.460 too bad it took

00:14:08.200 so long

00:14:08.700 to figure it out,

00:14:10.380 that I was being used

00:14:12.120 to prop up racism.

00:14:16.320 So the most radical bill

00:14:18.780 as an amendment

00:14:19.960 to the wishy-washy

00:14:22.840 bipartisan bill

00:14:24.800 that wouldn't hurt

00:14:25.560 the regime at all,

00:14:26.540 but at least makes

00:14:27.260 some

00:14:27.980 subtle statements.

00:14:31.600 I let that bill

00:14:33.540 go through

00:14:33.960 on a voice vote.

00:14:35.340 And it was historic

00:14:37.380 because it was

00:14:38.480 a little vibration

00:14:40.460 in the ocean

00:14:41.980 of apartheid

00:14:43.160 in white,

00:14:44.380 rural South Africa.

00:14:45.580 America

00:14:46.140 and it built

00:14:47.060 into a tsunami

00:14:48.980 essentially

00:14:49.700 within the next few years.

00:14:52.040 And that's...

00:14:52.340 So let me get that story

00:14:53.360 exactly straight.

00:14:54.320 So you were spearheading

00:14:55.560 a weak-kneed bill

00:14:57.380 to begin with.

00:14:58.240 Yes.

00:14:58.320 And you were doing that

00:14:59.780 to some degree

00:15:00.760 unbeknownst to yourself

00:15:01.940 as a puppet

00:15:02.640 of forces

00:15:03.360 that you didn't

00:15:04.740 fully understand.

00:15:06.220 But then I didn't

00:15:07.080 quite follow that.

00:15:08.040 What was the transformation

00:15:09.120 of the bill

00:15:09.980 that had the cascading effect?

00:15:12.160 Well,

00:15:12.740 there was a substitute bill

00:15:14.540 by Ron Dellums,

00:15:15.900 a very liberal Democrat

00:15:17.540 from California,

00:15:19.560 that had real teeth in it.

00:15:22.020 I see.

00:15:22.440 Oh, I mean,

00:15:23.040 it was seriously condemning

00:15:25.360 justifiably

00:15:26.360 the apartheid regime.

00:15:29.160 And he, of course,

00:15:30.680 presented it

00:15:31.460 as a substitute

00:15:32.660 for the original bill.

00:15:35.140 And all I had to do

00:15:36.860 was call for record

00:15:37.860 roll call vote

00:15:38.700 and be voted down.

00:15:39.720 We'd go back

00:15:40.260 to the other bill,

00:15:40.960 debate that

00:15:41.560 for another day or so,

00:15:42.960 and the weak bill

00:15:44.280 would float

00:15:44.860 through the Senate

00:15:45.660 and we'd go

00:15:46.060 through the Senate

00:15:46.740 and everything

00:15:47.700 would be copacetic

00:15:49.100 with the racists.

00:15:50.340 Well,

00:15:51.780 I refused

00:15:53.220 to allow

00:15:54.760 a voice vote

00:15:55.700 and no one else

00:15:56.640 was there

00:15:57.000 to call for it

00:15:57.820 except for me

00:15:58.600 because Republicans

00:15:59.900 didn't want to be seen

00:16:01.260 defending racism.

00:16:04.260 Okay,

00:16:04.380 and so what's

00:16:04.980 the significance

00:16:05.620 of you calling,

00:16:06.800 refusing to call

00:16:07.500 for a voice vote?

00:16:08.400 Because the Ron Dellums bill,

00:16:10.140 this extreme bill,

00:16:12.080 passed the U.S.

00:16:13.140 House of Representatives

00:16:14.220 as a substitute

00:16:15.380 for the weak bill.

00:16:17.080 And I was,

00:16:17.940 it was,

00:16:18.280 I was blamed for it.

00:16:19.460 And by the time

00:16:20.320 I got back

00:16:20.880 to my office,

00:16:21.540 I can't tell you

00:16:22.280 how many messages

00:16:23.100 of disdain

00:16:23.960 and anger

00:16:24.980 I received from that.

00:16:27.060 And that was just

00:16:27.520 the beginning

00:16:28.120 of this whole epiphany.

00:16:30.380 And then when I went

00:16:31.320 to the Middle East,

00:16:32.660 usually we go to Israel

00:16:34.140 because I was

00:16:35.020 on the Middle East

00:16:35.760 committee too.

00:16:37.300 And we were told

00:16:39.120 not to see

00:16:39.960 the Palestinians.

00:16:41.860 And I thought,

00:16:42.460 now wait a minute,

00:16:42.980 how can one ever

00:16:44.140 work as a mediator,

00:16:47.040 especially one

00:16:48.140 of the most powerful

00:16:48.840 countries in the world

00:16:50.060 and most powerful

00:16:51.860 parliaments

00:16:52.500 in the world,

00:16:53.160 the U.S. Congress,

00:16:54.440 if we don't talk

00:16:55.160 to both sides?

00:16:56.920 We have to,

00:16:57.540 I'm very pro-Israel,

00:16:59.040 but I thought we still

00:16:59.940 have to talk

00:17:00.560 to our enemies,

00:17:02.060 what are perceived

00:17:02.740 to be enemies

00:17:03.480 anyway at the time.

00:17:05.200 And I was threatened

00:17:07.580 at that time

00:17:08.720 not to pursue

00:17:10.260 this type of,

00:17:12.440 I would call it

00:17:13.600 balance,

00:17:14.380 of engaging people

00:17:16.060 that our party

00:17:17.740 was told

00:17:18.200 not to engage.

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00:18:26.180 Hmm.

00:18:26.960 Okay, so let me

00:18:27.900 expand on this

00:18:29.980 a little bit.

00:18:30.640 So,

00:18:31.320 you talked about

00:18:32.520 the anti-communism

00:18:34.740 and the role

00:18:36.920 of the military,

00:18:38.280 the role

00:18:38.620 of force

00:18:39.940 in combating communism.

00:18:42.300 and you talked

00:18:43.600 about apartheid

00:18:44.520 and then

00:18:44.900 we also

00:18:45.840 started to talk

00:18:47.160 about the conflicts

00:18:48.320 that involved

00:18:49.040 the Islamic world.

00:18:50.060 So,

00:18:50.520 let me walk

00:18:51.280 through those

00:18:51.840 with an eye

00:18:52.420 to fleshing out

00:18:54.000 the neocon position.

00:18:56.800 I mean,

00:18:57.020 obviously,

00:18:57.620 during the 60s,

00:18:58.620 there was a huge

00:18:59.320 rebellion

00:18:59.780 in the United States,

00:19:01.000 especially by young people,

00:19:02.780 against the use

00:19:03.880 of the military

00:19:04.780 in fighting

00:19:05.800 the communists

00:19:06.700 in Vietnam,

00:19:08.300 an extension,

00:19:09.180 let's say,

00:19:09.460 of the Korean conflict.

00:19:11.220 Now,

00:19:12.120 when I was young,

00:19:13.120 I was temperamentally,

00:19:15.120 I suppose,

00:19:16.240 predisposed

00:19:16.940 and also by my youth

00:19:18.180 to thinking

00:19:18.640 that the anti-war protests

00:19:20.520 were fully justified.

00:19:21.760 But as I matured

00:19:23.660 and learned more

00:19:24.240 about the absolute horrors

00:19:25.900 of communism,

00:19:26.860 both Soviet and Chinese,

00:19:29.320 I could certainly see

00:19:30.600 the rationale

00:19:31.780 for the U.S.

00:19:34.260 in particular

00:19:34.840 to do everything

00:19:35.760 it could

00:19:36.280 from stopping

00:19:37.020 any population

00:19:38.120 like that of Cambodia,

00:19:40.180 let's say,

00:19:40.860 from falling

00:19:41.660 into the hands

00:19:42.360 of the communists.

00:19:43.320 I mean,

00:19:43.480 how many people

00:19:44.080 in Cambodia

00:19:44.700 died when the communists

00:19:45.760 took over?

00:19:46.440 Four million

00:19:47.180 in the killing fields?

00:19:48.280 At least.

00:19:48.880 Something like that.

00:19:49.560 Some absolute

00:19:50.640 cataclysmic catastrophe.

00:19:52.920 And of course,

00:19:53.420 North Korea

00:19:53.880 has never been able,

00:19:54.740 the Koreans

00:19:55.080 have never been able

00:19:55.800 to free themselves

00:19:56.960 from the grip

00:19:57.580 of the Chinese communists.

00:19:59.040 And so,

00:19:59.680 it's an open question

00:20:00.780 with regards

00:20:01.960 to communism,

00:20:03.560 how much diplomacy

00:20:04.680 is possible

00:20:05.460 and how much force

00:20:06.480 is necessary

00:20:07.400 and the certainly

00:20:09.280 weakness

00:20:09.840 in the face

00:20:10.480 of communism

00:20:11.160 and military weakness

00:20:12.580 was not advisable.

00:20:14.480 And then,

00:20:15.260 so let's just

00:20:16.280 park that for a second.

00:20:17.440 And then on the

00:20:18.160 South African side,

00:20:20.140 I mean,

00:20:20.340 I've been concerned

00:20:21.280 ever since the 1980s

00:20:22.860 when the anti-apartheid

00:20:24.380 movement emerged

00:20:26.260 that South Africa

00:20:28.360 would turn into

00:20:29.200 what Zimbabwe

00:20:30.120 turned into

00:20:30.820 or Rhodesia

00:20:31.700 and that the radical

00:20:33.260 leftists

00:20:33.980 would take over

00:20:34.880 in the aftermath

00:20:35.700 of the disintegration

00:20:37.040 of the apartheid empire

00:20:38.520 and all hell 0.66

00:20:39.660 would break loose

00:20:40.500 and it still seems

00:20:41.680 to me

00:20:41.960 that that's a real possibility

00:20:43.500 still for South Africa.

00:20:45.740 Right,

00:20:46.000 so these are the sorts

00:20:47.360 of things

00:20:47.740 that you were caught up in

00:20:49.700 in that nexus.

00:20:51.160 And so,

00:20:51.680 the neocons

00:20:52.420 from what you've said,

00:20:55.260 from what I understand,

00:20:56.580 they're more likely

00:20:57.440 to stand

00:20:58.900 on the side

00:20:59.760 of like resolute

00:21:01.320 and even invasive

00:21:02.460 military force

00:21:03.700 to implement

00:21:06.180 regime changes.

00:21:07.260 Now,

00:21:07.480 I want to add

00:21:07.960 one more thing to that

00:21:09.060 and then we'll go back

00:21:10.240 to your epiphany.

00:21:12.480 The theoretical problem,

00:21:17.200 the problem

00:21:17.880 with the neocon theory

00:21:19.320 in my estimation

00:21:20.400 is that

00:21:21.060 it seems to be predicated

00:21:22.600 on the belief

00:21:23.320 that a totalitarian state

00:21:25.460 is basically composed of 0.51

00:21:27.040 like a hyper thug 0.92

00:21:28.800 and his minions 0.94

00:21:30.160 oppressing

00:21:31.200 a vast number

00:21:32.860 of essentially

00:21:33.760 freedom-loving people.

00:21:35.100 And I don't think

00:21:35.720 that's a reasonable

00:21:36.580 account of

00:21:38.500 a totalitarian

00:21:39.500 or authoritarian state

00:21:40.640 at all.

00:21:41.160 Like,

00:21:41.560 an authoritarian state

00:21:42.720 emerges when

00:21:43.380 everyone is lying

00:21:44.900 about everything

00:21:45.840 all the time.

00:21:47.000 There might be

00:21:47.480 the worst thug

00:21:48.140 at the top 0.94

00:21:48.680 but the pathology

00:21:49.600 is radically distributed

00:21:51.280 through the system.

00:21:52.500 So,

00:21:52.740 the idea that

00:21:53.320 if you do

00:21:54.380 a regime change

00:21:55.380 that you're going

00:21:56.000 to evoke

00:21:57.060 something like democracy

00:21:58.300 in its aftermath

00:21:59.120 strikes me as

00:22:00.040 wishful thinking

00:22:01.700 in the extreme.

00:22:02.940 So,

00:22:03.280 it doesn't seem to me

00:22:04.280 that the neocon fault

00:22:06.200 is necessarily

00:22:07.260 their proclivity

00:22:08.120 to rely on

00:22:09.060 military might.

00:22:10.420 It seems to me

00:22:11.200 that their fault

00:22:11.880 is that they have

00:22:12.460 a naive view

00:22:13.580 of how complex

00:22:15.460 it is to

00:22:16.280 generate the preconditions

00:22:18.120 for a democracy.

00:22:20.000 Exactly.

00:22:20.960 Okay,

00:22:21.340 so,

00:22:21.860 I'd be more than happy

00:22:23.180 to hear your reaction

00:22:24.200 to any or all of that

00:22:25.900 and then we'll go back

00:22:26.700 to the epiphany.

00:22:27.680 Certainly.

00:22:28.700 Well,

00:22:29.900 this is

00:22:30.680 extraordinary naivete

00:22:32.440 to think one

00:22:33.720 could go to Iraq

00:22:34.720 or even Syria

00:22:36.180 for that matter

00:22:37.040 and force

00:22:38.460 an American

00:22:40.640 U.S. style

00:22:42.420 democracy

00:22:43.580 on a

00:22:45.480 people group

00:22:47.200 that is broken

00:22:48.460 into different

00:22:49.580 faith groups,

00:22:51.600 Right.

00:22:51.940 Languages.

00:22:52.460 Muslim,

00:22:54.020 Shiite,

00:22:54.700 Sunni,

00:22:55.720 language,

00:22:56.160 I mean,

00:22:56.480 it was completely absurd.

00:22:58.940 No institutions,

00:23:00.160 no history of democracy.

00:23:01.580 No,

00:23:01.600 with nothing.

00:23:02.240 Yeah.

00:23:02.820 And this is,

00:23:04.140 to me,

00:23:04.540 the biggest area

00:23:05.840 of deception

00:23:06.640 with a neoconservative

00:23:09.000 ideology.

00:23:10.640 They are just

00:23:11.440 so,

00:23:12.440 still

00:23:13.140 believe that

00:23:14.060 democracy

00:23:14.700 is the best

00:23:15.660 for every country.

00:23:17.000 But how many

00:23:18.000 democracies,

00:23:19.440 Jordan,

00:23:19.680 are the same?

00:23:21.320 Well,

00:23:21.580 they're also

00:23:22.060 a minority

00:23:22.660 of governments.

00:23:23.800 And the idea

00:23:24.640 that democracy,

00:23:26.020 see,

00:23:26.340 the problem,

00:23:26.880 part of the problem

00:23:27.480 with this neoconstance

00:23:28.740 is the notion

00:23:29.520 that democracy

00:23:31.140 is the natural

00:23:32.460 state of governance

00:23:33.680 for human beings,

00:23:34.860 which is,

00:23:35.540 like,

00:23:36.320 it's rare.

00:23:38.340 There are

00:23:38.940 a multitude

00:23:39.780 of unlikely

00:23:40.740 preconditions,

00:23:41.640 some of which

00:23:42.180 seem to be,

00:23:43.080 well,

00:23:43.380 this is something else

00:23:44.180 that we can talk about,

00:23:45.760 some of which

00:23:46.440 seem to be

00:23:47.000 Judeo-Christian

00:23:47.800 in their essence.

00:23:48.840 It's like

00:23:49.200 47 of

00:23:50.780 50

00:23:51.860 Muslim-majority

00:23:53.720 countries

00:23:54.300 are not

00:23:54.940 democracies.

00:23:56.500 And 100%

00:23:57.480 of

00:23:58.060 Catholic and

00:23:59.640 Protestant-majority 0.98

00:24:00.720 countries

00:24:01.180 outside of Africa

00:24:02.160 are functional

00:24:03.300 democracies.

00:24:04.300 So this is something

00:24:05.120 we can also

00:24:05.840 delve into

00:24:06.720 when we talk

00:24:07.360 about the

00:24:08.160 commonalities

00:24:10.660 between

00:24:11.240 Christianity,

00:24:12.820 Judaism,

00:24:13.460 and Islam,

00:24:14.400 because we also

00:24:15.220 have to account

00:24:15.840 for the radical

00:24:16.560 differences in

00:24:17.300 governance style.

00:24:18.220 Okay,

00:24:18.560 so you weren't

00:24:19.620 a fan of

00:24:20.120 the neocons,

00:24:21.460 even though

00:24:22.100 you'd started

00:24:22.980 out as more

00:24:24.420 of a hawk

00:24:25.080 and more of

00:24:25.640 an evangelical

00:24:26.560 hawk.

00:24:27.400 You had an

00:24:27.780 epiphany,

00:24:28.720 and the epiphany,

00:24:29.580 I'd like to go

00:24:30.180 into that a little

00:24:30.780 bit more.

00:24:31.640 Some of that

00:24:32.100 was conceptual,

00:24:33.180 maybe the Muslims,

00:24:34.060 Christians,

00:24:34.500 and Jews have 0.91

00:24:35.040 more in common

00:24:35.640 than we might

00:24:36.380 think,

00:24:36.940 but some of it

00:24:37.740 was your

00:24:38.760 dawning intuition

00:24:39.800 that there was

00:24:40.360 a conflict

00:24:41.020 between the

00:24:42.080 deep realities

00:24:43.120 of your faith

00:24:43.960 and your

00:24:44.460 political

00:24:45.180 approach

00:24:46.160 and strategy.

00:24:47.740 So how did

00:24:48.160 that,

00:24:48.420 yeah,

00:24:48.660 how do you

00:24:49.020 make sense

00:24:49.920 of that

00:24:50.360 realization

00:24:51.180 coming to

00:24:51.780 dawn on you?

00:24:52.920 It was

00:24:53.320 Spark Jordan

00:24:54.800 by a friend

00:24:55.800 from India.

00:24:57.440 He said,

00:24:57.940 Mark,

00:24:58.200 you talk

00:24:58.780 negative

00:24:59.260 against Muslims 1.00

00:25:00.320 and the

00:25:01.200 Quran,

00:25:01.640 but did you

00:25:02.160 know

00:25:02.620 that Jesus

00:25:04.020 is in the

00:25:04.720 Quran? 0.78

00:25:06.200 I jumped

00:25:07.000 out of my

00:25:07.580 chair and said,

00:25:08.080 I don't believe,

00:25:08.880 and this is

00:25:09.340 during the epiphany,

00:25:10.540 you say,

00:25:10.680 I'm still

00:25:11.140 developing,

00:25:12.060 it's like

00:25:12.480 one is an

00:25:13.560 infant,

00:25:14.080 you're born

00:25:14.560 into a new

00:25:15.620 thinking,

00:25:16.260 but it takes

00:25:16.740 time to

00:25:17.280 mature

00:25:17.720 and hopefully

00:25:19.480 someday

00:25:20.160 become an

00:25:20.960 adult

00:25:21.420 in the

00:25:23.980 context

00:25:24.480 of the

00:25:24.780 epiphany.

00:25:25.980 And I was

00:25:27.000 very angry,

00:25:27.740 I said,

00:25:27.960 I don't believe

00:25:28.520 this,

00:25:28.740 so I bought

00:25:29.160 a Quran,

00:25:30.340 in English,

00:25:31.080 of course,

00:25:32.120 and started

00:25:33.600 reading it

00:25:34.520 in English,

00:25:36.700 and it was

00:25:37.440 extraordinary

00:25:38.020 how many times

00:25:38.920 it mentioned

00:25:39.480 Jesus.

00:25:40.220 And he's

00:25:40.480 the central

00:25:41.040 figure,

00:25:42.140 strangely

00:25:42.840 enough.

00:25:43.360 It was

00:25:43.700 a profound

00:25:45.160 discovery,

00:25:46.160 and my

00:25:46.920 wife,

00:25:47.580 I'd scream

00:25:48.060 back to her,

00:25:48.620 Nancy,

00:25:49.880 do you know

00:25:50.280 what the

00:25:50.800 Quran says

00:25:51.320 about Jesus?

00:25:53.160 And she

00:25:53.460 said,

00:25:53.660 I don't

00:25:53.920 really want

00:25:54.480 to know.

00:25:55.460 Yeah,

00:25:55.760 right.

00:25:55.880 I go,

00:25:56.240 oh,

00:25:56.400 let me

00:25:56.840 tell you.

00:25:57.720 And then

00:25:58.120 she got

00:25:59.360 quite infatuated

00:26:01.100 with the

00:26:01.440 whole process

00:26:02.180 as well.

00:26:03.420 So after

00:26:04.400 studying it,

00:26:05.320 I called

00:26:05.920 a spiritual

00:26:06.680 friend of

00:26:07.580 mine who

00:26:07.860 was my

00:26:08.200 pastor from

00:26:08.980 Michigan,

00:26:09.380 who spoke

00:26:10.540 Aramaic.

00:26:12.100 And this

00:26:12.500 is the key

00:26:13.060 linchpin now 1.00

00:26:13.980 with the

00:26:14.480 epiphany,

00:26:15.340 by the way.

00:26:16.620 He was

00:26:17.060 teaching me

00:26:17.780 Aramaic.

00:26:18.600 Right,

00:26:18.780 which is

00:26:19.120 Christ's

00:26:19.640 original

00:26:19.980 language.

00:26:20.400 Yeah,

00:26:20.700 Jesus the

00:26:21.340 Messiah from

00:26:22.500 Nazareth spoke

00:26:23.440 Galilean dialect

00:26:24.700 of Aramaic.

00:26:25.920 And there is a

00:26:26.860 fourth or fifth

00:26:27.720 century copy,

00:26:29.220 I believe,

00:26:29.780 of a copy of

00:26:30.400 a copy of

00:26:31.620 what they call

00:26:32.180 the Peshitta

00:26:32.940 text.

00:26:33.780 It's in the

00:26:34.240 Museum of

00:26:34.900 London,

00:26:35.360 I think,

00:26:35.760 at the

00:26:36.060 moment.

00:26:36.940 And Peshitta

00:26:37.560 means simple

00:26:38.280 and straightforward.

00:26:39.380 And it

00:26:40.640 has the

00:26:41.080 Aramaic

00:26:41.600 language of

00:26:42.280 Jesus.

00:26:42.760 So I

00:26:43.000 began reading

00:26:44.280 that and

00:26:45.360 then reading

00:26:45.920 the Koran.

00:26:47.000 And while I

00:26:47.620 had many nice

00:26:48.480 things to say,

00:26:49.220 which I love

00:26:49.980 to get into

00:26:50.700 before the

00:26:51.640 interview expires,

00:26:53.100 about Jesus,

00:26:54.720 it also said

00:26:55.660 things, for

00:26:56.520 example, he's

00:26:57.400 not the

00:26:58.080 son of God,

00:26:59.120 he wasn't

00:26:59.760 crucified,

00:27:01.320 negative against

00:27:02.480 the Trinity,

00:27:03.100 things like that

00:27:03.740 the Christians,

00:27:04.760 including yours

00:27:05.420 truly, felt a

00:27:06.920 little bit

00:27:07.480 offended by,

00:27:08.780 so there

00:27:09.200 you go,

00:27:09.540 there's some

00:27:10.000 of the

00:27:10.220 problems.

00:27:11.220 But then

00:27:11.700 the epiphany

00:27:12.700 grew to a

00:27:13.460 second,

00:27:13.880 more minor

00:27:14.560 one.

00:27:16.020 I felt,

00:27:17.740 how does

00:27:19.240 one say

00:27:19.680 this,

00:27:21.020 a very

00:27:21.540 strong

00:27:22.240 notion

00:27:22.840 that is

00:27:24.300 in the

00:27:24.840 words,

00:27:26.380 the words.

00:27:29.540 So I

00:27:30.300 asked my

00:27:31.040 pastor,

00:27:32.580 Aramaic

00:27:33.080 speaker,

00:27:34.160 what is

00:27:34.940 begotten

00:27:35.940 in Aramaic?

00:27:38.200 And began

00:27:39.000 learning Arabic

00:27:40.340 at some

00:27:40.920 level,

00:27:42.260 and comparing

00:27:43.120 the begottenness

00:27:44.580 of Jesus

00:27:45.240 in the

00:27:45.840 Quran,

00:27:47.260 and the

00:27:47.700 begottenness

00:27:48.500 of Jesus,

00:27:49.200 say,

00:27:49.460 in Matthew

00:27:49.920 1,

00:27:50.720 with a

00:27:51.100 long

00:27:51.460 41

00:27:52.980 begots,

00:27:54.280 Abraham begot

00:27:55.280 Isaac,

00:27:55.820 etc.,

00:27:56.520 and discovered

00:27:57.680 something quite

00:27:58.700 fascinating,

00:28:00.120 that the

00:28:00.740 same word

00:28:01.620 the Quran

00:28:02.160 uses,

00:28:02.860 walid,

00:28:04.160 for Jesus

00:28:05.000 was not

00:28:05.760 walid,

00:28:06.540 or begotten,

00:28:07.980 and this

00:28:08.280 may seem a

00:28:09.680 little technical,

00:28:10.380 but it's

00:28:11.300 very powerful,

00:28:12.840 it's a

00:28:13.340 male

00:28:14.000 verb

00:28:16.140 action,

00:28:17.000 meaning

00:28:17.300 sexually. 0.84

00:28:19.620 So,

00:28:19.920 of course,

00:28:20.560 no Christian 1.00

00:28:21.140 believes God 0.73

00:28:21.880 had sex 0.99

00:28:22.480 with Mary, 0.98

00:28:23.140 but that's

00:28:23.540 what many

00:28:24.000 Muslims

00:28:24.500 believe,

00:28:25.000 Christians

00:28:25.340 believe,

00:28:26.060 because we

00:28:26.520 say,

00:28:27.440 Jesus was

00:28:28.160 begotten

00:28:29.180 the same

00:28:30.040 way as

00:28:30.500 we were

00:28:31.400 begotten,

00:28:32.380 but in

00:28:32.880 the

00:28:33.040 Peshitta

00:28:33.520 text,

00:28:34.100 it uniquely

00:28:34.820 and without

00:28:36.820 any

00:28:37.340 coincidental

00:28:39.000 serendipity

00:28:39.980 uses the

00:28:41.420 same word

00:28:41.940 as the

00:28:42.240 Quran,

00:28:42.660 Abraham,

00:28:43.280 walid,

00:28:43.780 walid,

00:28:44.320 this begotten,

00:28:45.040 begotten,

00:28:45.700 meaning sexually

00:28:46.520 conceived.

00:28:47.420 When it gets

00:28:48.020 down to

00:28:48.480 verse 16

00:28:49.280 to Jesus,

00:28:51.340 the form of

00:28:52.000 the word

00:28:52.460 changes

00:28:53.140 to a

00:28:54.360 feminine

00:28:55.300 passive

00:28:57.100 construct

00:28:58.660 in Aramaic,

00:28:59.420 meaning there

00:28:59.980 is no

00:29:00.320 man and

00:29:01.560 there is

00:29:01.800 no action,

00:29:03.000 I mean

00:29:03.200 physical

00:29:03.740 action.

00:29:04.860 And when

00:29:05.260 Muslims hear

00:29:06.040 this,

00:29:06.900 the scholars,

00:29:08.300 the cab

00:29:08.740 drivers,

00:29:09.780 my close

00:29:10.300 friends,

00:29:11.360 they're just

00:29:12.120 enamored with

00:29:13.180 this.

00:29:13.700 So the

00:29:14.060 point is,

00:29:15.020 the way

00:29:15.500 Jesus was

00:29:16.280 begotten in

00:29:17.320 the Bible

00:29:17.880 and in

00:29:19.860 the Quran

00:29:20.400 is identical.

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00:30:35.400 You said a number

00:30:40.400 of things that are

00:30:41.080 of crucial

00:30:41.540 importance.

00:30:42.360 Okay.

00:30:42.820 Well, if the

00:30:44.040 goal, I've been

00:30:45.360 thinking for some

00:30:47.440 protracted period of

00:30:48.820 time, especially in

00:30:51.020 the aftermath of the

00:30:51.980 Abraham Accords, that

00:30:53.260 there are foundational

00:30:55.640 principles that unite

00:30:57.240 Muslims, Jews, and

00:30:58.740 Christians. 0.51

00:30:59.340 They're all people of

00:31:00.240 the book, for example,

00:31:01.240 and they're all

00:31:02.800 Abrahamic people.

00:31:04.920 And those are the

00:31:07.160 idea that all of our

00:31:08.420 cultures are predicated

00:31:11.180 on a book rather than a

00:31:13.360 city, rather than the

00:31:14.840 state, rather than a

00:31:16.480 military power, rather

00:31:17.820 than an empire.

00:31:19.160 That's a radical

00:31:20.260 similarity.

00:31:22.260 people of the book is a

00:31:25.360 radical change with

00:31:27.520 regard to, say, the

00:31:28.460 Romans or the Greeks or 0.91

00:31:29.540 the pagan empires.

00:31:30.720 The fact that a book is

00:31:31.960 the foundation of the

00:31:32.940 culture, that's an

00:31:34.040 unbelievably revolutionary

00:31:35.400 notion.

00:31:36.200 And then the three, the

00:31:37.740 books that guide all

00:31:39.420 three of the major

00:31:40.140 Abrahamic religions have 0.99

00:31:41.800 marked similarities.

00:31:43.540 One of them, as you

00:31:44.360 pointed out, with

00:31:45.400 regards to Islam and

00:31:46.920 Christianity, is the 0.96

00:31:47.840 centrality of Christ.

00:31:49.400 Okay, so you said that

00:31:51.280 was a big surprise

00:31:52.120 to you, and I'm sure

00:31:53.140 it's a surprise to many

00:31:54.100 of the people that are

00:31:54.840 listening.

00:31:55.900 Well, then, where's the

00:31:57.520 rub?

00:31:58.140 Well, that's what you

00:31:58.860 turn to right away.

00:32:00.420 Christ is a central

00:32:01.280 figure.

00:32:02.040 Jesus is a central

00:32:02.940 figure in the Islamic

00:32:04.040 text, as he is in the

00:32:05.140 Christian text, but

00:32:06.160 there's doctrinal

00:32:06.880 differences, which you

00:32:07.840 zeroed in on right

00:32:09.040 away.

00:32:09.420 But one of the things

00:32:10.300 that you were fleshing

00:32:12.060 out, investigating, was

00:32:13.880 the possibility that the

00:32:15.480 doctrinal differences

00:32:16.540 with regards to the

00:32:17.660 circumstances of

00:32:18.600 Christ's conception and

00:32:20.460 birth were less

00:32:21.860 at odds than

00:32:23.960 might be if you were

00:32:25.880 ultimately pessimistic,

00:32:27.180 right?

00:32:27.380 Because the question

00:32:28.440 is, for me,

00:32:30.120 look, the Abraham 0.99

00:32:31.680 Accords

00:32:32.300 demonstrated that

00:32:34.600 people of goodwill

00:32:37.540 could circumvent the

00:32:38.700 State Department and

00:32:39.980 what would you say,

00:32:42.600 accumulated doctrinal

00:32:44.780 diplomatic wisdom that it

00:32:46.140 was impossible to

00:32:47.020 negotiate peace between

00:32:48.880 the Arab world and the

00:32:50.320 Israelis absent an 0.87

00:32:52.100 agreement on Palestine,

00:32:53.060 which was never going

00:32:53.940 to happen because the

00:32:55.720 Iranians, it's in the 1.00

00:32:57.460 Iranians' best interest

00:32:58.600 to keep the Palestine 1.00

00:32:59.620 conflict with the Jews 0.84

00:33:00.920 going on forever.

00:33:02.300 And so that's a

00:33:02.940 non-starter.

00:33:03.720 And the Abraham Accords 0.92

00:33:05.120 signatories just walked

00:33:06.440 around that in quite a

00:33:07.440 remarkable way.

00:33:08.460 And I don't think that

00:33:11.400 that's an accomplishment

00:33:12.300 that's been heralded

00:33:13.320 sufficiently.

00:33:13.920 And I know that the

00:33:14.760 people, particularly in the

00:33:16.280 UAE, they've built that

00:33:18.100 tri-faith complex, and

00:33:21.660 they seem to be working

00:33:23.500 towards a solution that's

00:33:26.180 similar to the one that

00:33:27.140 you're pursuing, which

00:33:28.100 would be the idea that,

00:33:29.600 well, maybe we should

00:33:30.280 start with our

00:33:30.980 commonalities and see

00:33:32.780 what we could negotiate

00:33:34.700 so that we could

00:33:35.980 establish something

00:33:37.680 approximating at least a

00:33:39.140 lasting and cooperative

00:33:40.780 peace, right?

00:33:42.420 As opposed to

00:33:43.520 continual warfare.

00:33:45.120 Now, I was stunned,

00:33:47.580 first of all, that the

00:33:48.580 Abraham Accords were 0.81

00:33:49.840 ever signed, but I was

00:33:51.620 also more stunned that

00:33:53.380 they held in the

00:33:54.900 aftermath of October

00:33:55.900 7th.

00:33:56.620 I know the Saudis

00:33:57.620 backed off and

00:33:58.500 everything got kind of

00:33:59.360 quiet about Arab-Israeli

00:34:02.220 cooperation, but the

00:34:04.420 accords didn't fracture.

00:34:08.860 And then more recently,

00:34:10.220 I noticed that the UAE

00:34:12.260 in particular, but also

00:34:13.220 the Saudis, have taken 0.98

00:34:15.180 steps to do something

00:34:16.300 that the West is very

00:34:17.520 loathe to do, especially

00:34:18.560 the UK, France, and

00:34:20.300 Germany, which is to

00:34:21.800 define radical Islam,

00:34:24.580 right, Islamism, to set 1.00

00:34:26.220 it outside the canonical

00:34:27.600 Islamic doctrine and to

00:34:29.540 oppose it.

00:34:30.660 And the leaders in the

00:34:32.080 UAE have called out

00:34:34.600 Germany and England, or

00:34:35.900 the UK in particular,

00:34:37.040 for being weak in their

00:34:40.000 opposition to Islamism,

00:34:42.040 which the UAE and the

00:34:43.800 Saudis don't regard as

00:34:45.160 part of canonical Islamic

00:34:47.120 tradition.

00:34:47.920 If I got that, does that

00:34:49.040 seem, is that in accordance

00:34:50.160 with how you...

00:34:50.920 Yes, indeed.

00:34:51.400 Okay.

00:34:52.080 And the Abrahamic Accords 0.68

00:34:53.560 were not lauded anywhere

00:34:56.040 near what they should have

00:34:57.520 been.

00:34:58.100 No.

00:34:58.360 I was privileged to be in the

00:35:01.040 gardens at the White House

00:35:03.180 watching the signatories and

00:35:06.340 working with North Sudan,

00:35:08.800 where I visited 24 times the

00:35:11.900 Khartoum and the 0.73

00:35:13.960 surroundings, to encourage them

00:35:16.560 to participate, which they did,

00:35:18.200 as did Morocco as well.

00:35:19.600 So, the Abrahamic Accords began 0.97

00:35:23.020 to extend, and Saudi was, as

00:35:25.920 you know, as you pointed out,

00:35:28.120 were right on the edge of

00:35:30.220 joining.

00:35:30.860 Yeah.

00:35:31.420 And then October 6th occurred.

00:35:35.100 And what a convenient thing to

00:35:37.900 happen at that timing.

00:35:41.300 It was horrific.

00:35:42.940 It's nothing less than a

00:35:44.940 agrocious atrocity, but it was

00:35:46.780 also well-timed.

00:35:47.840 Well, it seemed to me that the

00:35:49.800 purpose of October 7th was to

00:35:52.760 stop the Saudis from signing the 1.00

00:35:54.740 Abraham Accords.

00:35:55.900 Well, that was one of the goals.

00:35:58.140 One of the goals.

00:35:58.940 It was Iran's goal, and there 1.00

00:36:01.340 were others, but October 7th.

00:36:03.520 And that's exactly why the timing

00:36:06.200 was as it was.

00:36:08.140 Right, right.

00:36:09.000 Well, and it meant with some

00:36:10.900 success, although the agreements

00:36:13.140 didn't fragment.

00:36:14.800 Okay, so now you have this

00:36:16.480 epiphany, and so you were talking

00:36:19.200 about going to Israel and speaking

00:36:22.260 with the Palestinians, which, and

00:36:24.180 you faced opposition from within

00:36:26.640 your own party, especially on the

00:36:28.720 neocon side, for having the 0.67

00:36:30.700 temerity to propose such a thing.

00:36:32.620 Okay, let's pick it up from there.

00:36:34.180 So, loving enemies is not

00:36:37.060 appreciated in politics.

00:36:38.900 And this is, I don't want to get

00:36:41.980 off on a tangent, but this is why

00:36:44.100 Donald Trump is disdained by

00:36:46.120 neoconservatives as well, because he

00:36:49.100 talked to Kim Jong-un in his first

00:36:51.040 term.

00:36:51.840 He made friends with Putin.

00:36:53.420 He's a master negotiator, as you've

00:36:57.180 analyzed his psychology, I noticed on

00:37:00.860 one of your blogs, which is fantastic,

00:37:03.600 by the way.

00:37:04.140 And I have a great respect for Donald

00:37:07.100 Trump, because his heart is, I believe,

00:37:09.780 is for peace.

00:37:11.080 And he talks repeatedly about all these

00:37:15.500 young men dying, and all the people 1.00

00:37:17.480 dying. 0.86

00:37:18.740 He talks about dying and killing 0.99

00:37:20.900 repeatedly.

00:37:22.700 So, I believe he is, this is why there's

00:37:24.980 an opposition.

00:37:26.140 He is a man of peace.

00:37:27.920 He's the strangest man of peace.

00:37:30.100 Strange, indeed.

00:37:32.480 Regardless of what people say about his

00:37:34.220 personality, his gruffness, his

00:37:37.380 bluntness, his other characteristics

00:37:41.120 that you pointed out in one of your

00:37:44.060 excellent presentations, he's inside,

00:37:49.160 and I have no inside knowledge of this,

00:37:51.340 but I just believe from observation

00:37:53.160 that he has this compassion.

00:37:55.740 Well, he also has a track record.

00:37:57.400 I mean, when he was president, he led

00:38:00.400 the West into zero wars, right?

00:38:03.360 And zero is not very many.

00:38:05.380 And so, that was despite the fact that

00:38:07.220 we were assured by his opposition that

00:38:10.340 he was a warmonger, and that it would

00:38:13.240 be Trump that would be most, you could

00:38:15.880 imagine him voted in high school as most

00:38:17.900 likely to start World War III.

00:38:19.700 And yet, when he became president, the

00:38:23.120 fruits that his tree bore, let's say,

00:38:25.240 were fruits of peace.

00:38:26.740 And that was contradictory and strange

00:38:29.120 given the combativeness of his

00:38:31.260 personality.

00:38:32.140 But, you know, one of the things we

00:38:33.380 might always remind ourselves is that

00:38:35.180 if we're not ourselves capable of

00:38:38.740 promoting peace, let's say, in our own

00:38:42.400 family, let alone at an international

00:38:44.460 level, we might not be able to recognize

00:38:47.100 a true peacemaker when one comes along.

00:38:49.680 He's not necessarily going to look like

00:38:51.460 you think, because if you knew how to do

00:38:54.000 that, you'd do it.

00:38:55.480 And so, okay, now Trump seems to be doing

00:38:58.920 everything he can to...

00:39:00.220 But he shouldn't be trifled with.

00:39:02.460 That's the other side of Trump.

00:39:04.360 Right.

00:39:04.880 But that might also be absolutely

00:39:06.900 necessary, right?

00:39:08.260 We don't know what the preconditions are

00:39:10.660 for establishing peace.

00:39:12.160 He obviously indicated to people like the

00:39:14.860 dictator of North Korea that he could be

00:39:17.040 communicated with but not trifled with,

00:39:19.200 right?

00:39:19.920 And Trump does seem to have that

00:39:21.440 paradoxical personality, which is,

00:39:23.640 don't muck about with me.

00:39:25.040 But if we don't have to go to war, then

00:39:27.060 let's not, right?

00:39:28.800 And so he tromps around like a bull in a

00:39:32.060 China shop, and it's not obvious how

00:39:34.220 much of that's necessary.

00:39:35.240 But I really mean it's not obvious.

00:39:37.740 None of that seems weak, right?

00:39:40.560 And I think that was the position of

00:39:41.980 someone like Biden, who would promote

00:39:44.380 himself like Justin Trudeau does.

00:39:46.120 A lot of these good-thinking liberals is

00:39:48.000 they're the sort of people who, in

00:39:50.100 their mouths, butter wouldn't melt. 0.94

00:39:52.140 They're such nice gentlemen.

00:39:53.700 And nice has never seemed to me to be

00:39:55.860 particularly virtuous.

00:39:58.700 Discriminating nice from weak is a

00:40:01.800 difficult matter.

00:40:03.000 And I don't think people make that

00:40:04.680 mistake with Trump.

00:40:06.300 Okay, so back to Palestine. 0.50

00:40:08.040 Well, could I just make a quick comment?

00:40:10.240 Jesus, you know, they had asked, why

00:40:13.480 don't you call down your angels?

00:40:15.840 Yeah.

00:40:16.080 Which he could have, but he did not.

00:40:20.240 Because it's, and I don't mean to say

00:40:22.700 Trump is like Jesus, please.

00:40:25.560 I'm saying there's an attribute that while

00:40:29.140 there's power behind Jesus, Yeshua, as I

00:40:32.740 call him, his Hebrew name, there's power.

00:40:35.900 He still exerted love, compassion, and

00:40:40.600 invitation, yeah.

00:40:41.720 Well, you see the same thing with Moses.

00:40:44.180 You know, when Moses is near the end of

00:40:47.420 his sojourn with the Israelites, they run 0.99

00:40:49.640 out of water again in the desert.

00:40:51.560 And the Israelites ask Moses to intercede

00:40:54.540 on their behalf.

00:40:55.580 And God tells Moses to ask the rocks to

00:40:58.220 deliver water, right?

00:40:59.980 And he, instead, Moses goes with Aaron to 0.56

00:41:02.340 the rocks and uses his cudgel to compel and

00:41:07.480 command the rocks to deliver water, which

00:41:10.300 they do.

00:41:11.100 But his punishment is that he doesn't lead

00:41:13.260 the Israelites into the promised land, right? 0.76

00:41:15.260 So the God of the Old Testament, who's

00:41:18.080 manifested, let's say, in the spirit of

00:41:20.140 Christ, is someone who radically opposes the

00:41:24.420 use of unnecessary force, right?

00:41:27.140 Now, it isn't that Moses has no strength of

00:41:29.160 character because he stands up against the

00:41:31.540 Pharaoh multiple times, puts his own life at 0.84

00:41:34.760 risk.

00:41:35.460 He's a very brave person, but he's still

00:41:37.820 severely punished for using force when

00:41:40.580 verbal invitation is the order of the day.

00:41:44.880 Right, right.

00:41:45.860 And so it's possible to have that power at

00:41:49.640 your back and still be morally obliged to

00:41:53.300 use as little of it as necessary to, let's

00:41:57.380 say, to make your point.

00:41:58.940 Okay, so now you're off to Palestine.

00:42:01.760 You're running into opposition from the

00:42:03.180 neocons, you have an epiphany that you should

00:42:05.640 be reaching out and talking.

00:42:07.060 Yes.

00:42:07.360 That becomes a practical necessity with

00:42:10.600 regards to the Palestinians.

00:42:12.080 Pick up the story there.

00:42:13.580 Yes, and we engaged and talked and broke

00:42:16.940 bread and had tea.

00:42:19.080 How did you do that exactly?

00:42:20.640 Walk us through the mechanisms.

00:42:22.160 How did you reach out to?

00:42:22.260 Well, I mean, when you're in Congress, you

00:42:24.240 can, you know, you tell the embassy, my

00:42:27.960 interest is to see some Palestinians.

00:42:30.600 I said, well, that wouldn't be recommended

00:42:33.120 or advised.

00:42:34.020 I said, note taken, I still want to see

00:42:37.440 Palestinians, some of the leaders and some

00:42:39.780 average people.

00:42:40.740 We walked down some of the streets in the

00:42:44.060 West Bank and talked to people and knocked

00:42:46.800 down their doors.

00:42:47.560 I felt like we were in another campaign of

00:42:49.860 source.

00:42:50.600 And it was exhilarating.

00:42:52.520 And I don't even, can't even specify why

00:42:55.180 it was like meeting new people, a new

00:42:57.720 constituency.

00:42:58.300 But there was something missing, Jordan.

00:43:00.940 I was trying to find common ground.

00:43:03.680 One can be a nice person, a diplomat, and

00:43:06.020 break bread, which is critical in building

00:43:09.080 interpersonal relationship.

00:43:10.640 But there is no spiritual connectivity.

00:43:13.120 Right, right.

00:43:13.760 So going back to this thought about the

00:43:17.700 begotten, we spoke about earlier that the

00:43:19.960 Bible says that the Holy Spirit was breathed

00:43:24.100 into Mary by God, who is a virgin, and the

00:43:28.440 sinless Messiah was born.

00:43:31.220 Well, the Quran says precisely the same

00:43:33.600 thing, that God, Allah, breathed into Mary's

00:43:37.680 a virgin room and produced Isa, Jesus, a

00:43:43.660 perfect, Zakiya, perfect, unblemished

00:43:47.580 Mashiach, Messiah.

00:43:49.300 And I thought, well, what's the difference?

00:43:52.900 We call them son, our term is son of God, and

00:43:55.520 the Muslims are all hung up on that. 0.99

00:43:57.380 They shouldn't be because in their mind, this

00:44:00.000 is the critical point.

00:44:01.180 And here's the common ground.

00:44:02.960 You could build with Gaddafi, Omar al-Bashir, 0.99

00:44:06.720 or your neighbor, that the common ground is

00:44:14.100 that he was born supernaturally, and the son

00:44:19.260 everyone, I mean, excuse me, the son of God

00:44:22.220 construct is ubiquitous throughout the Old

00:44:25.860 Testament.

00:44:26.840 It's unique.

00:44:29.000 Anyone, any being conceived or breathed by

00:44:34.340 Yahweh, including the angel.

00:44:37.520 They were called the sons of God, looked down

00:44:39.460 on the women in Genesis 6 and said, aren't

00:44:41.960 they beautiful, and created the Nephilim.

00:44:44.100 Well, they are called sons of God.

00:44:45.840 Even high priests were called sons of God.

00:44:47.440 You see that in the story of Job, too.

00:44:49.660 Yeah, and Job as well.

00:44:51.040 So what I'm saying, the notion of son of

00:44:53.260 God should not be so offensive to the Muslims.

00:44:57.100 The point is, what do we mean by that?

00:45:00.220 We mean that God, Yahweh, blew his Ruha Kodesh, 1.00

00:45:04.460 his Holy Spirit, into Mary.

00:45:06.160 And that's precisely what the Quran says.

00:45:08.480 The stories are almost identical, and even

00:45:11.300 linguistically.

00:45:12.940 The Ruha Kodesh, Arabic, and Ruha Kodesh is the

00:45:16.960 Hebrew.

00:45:17.580 See the sounds of similarities?

00:45:19.800 Aloha is God in Hebrew.

00:45:22.200 Aloha is what Jesus himself used in his vernacular Aramaic, and

00:45:28.880 Allah, Arabic, Aloha Aramaic, Aloha Hebrew.

00:45:33.840 So that similarity was stunning, because most of my Christian

00:45:37.340 friends say Allah is not the God of the Bible.

00:45:40.040 Well, I said, etymologically, it is the same God, at least in terms of title.

00:45:49.360 Now, how one views God, maybe through their lenses, is different.

00:45:54.080 There are 56,000, give or take.

00:45:57.280 Sex and denominations of Christianity all over the world, hair-splitting every little theological 0.83

00:46:03.060 difference, but I would say that there are more dynamic synergies between the Quran and

00:46:11.460 the Bible.

00:46:11.920 I'm not saying so much Islam and Christianity, because they have their history, dogmas, culture,

00:46:20.560 and politics.

00:46:23.700 But you mean in terms of the texts?

00:46:25.780 Yes.

00:46:26.880 Interpretations.

00:46:27.680 But the text in Aramaic, in the New Testament, the text of the Quran and Arabic merge much more

00:46:37.300 smoothly and consistently than would an Islamic imam debating a Christian pastor. 0.56

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00:47:59.800 Is it reasonable?

00:48:06.640 There's two pathways we could walk down now.

00:48:08.940 We could continue to pick up the biographical story, let's say, that begins with your interactions

00:48:13.900 with the Palestinians.

00:48:15.180 Let's do that.

00:48:15.940 Let's do that.

00:48:16.480 I have a very troublesome question to ask you as well, but I'll forestall that for the time

00:48:20.900 being.

00:48:21.500 So tell me what happens after you start to make contact with the Palestinians.

00:48:26.000 Now, you've pointed out that what you were doing was like a constituency outreach and

00:48:30.840 the beginnings of an investigation into a culture that you had regarded with enmity and

00:48:36.760 as foreign, and that there was an exhilarating aspect to that, but there was something deeper

00:48:41.260 driving it, which was the search for profound commonalities.

00:48:45.240 My sense is, is that with regards to the Islamic world, unless we, we meaning Christians, Jews

00:48:53.000 and Muslims concentrate on what we have in common and work out a framework for collaboration

00:48:58.520 and fair competition, that the alternative is something like capitulation.

00:49:03.660 It's always the alternative to negotiation, capitulation or war.

00:49:07.880 And those are both dreadful alternatives.

00:49:10.120 And so it seems to me that we should at least pray, hope and pray that there's more that

00:49:15.900 unites us than there is that divides us, because otherwise it's going to be a real brutal time.

00:49:20.980 And the Abraham Accords seem to be a real positive move in that direction, especially with regards 1.00

00:49:26.020 to the UAE's attempt to initiate this tri-faith process.

00:49:31.100 Okay.

00:49:31.340 And obviously that idea gripped you.

00:49:33.980 Okay.

00:49:34.300 Now you're dealing with the Palestinians. 1.00

00:49:35.740 What happens, what do you realize in consequence of that and what happens next?

00:49:39.900 I realize what the Abrahamic Accords are missing, all the interfaith groups are missing, what

00:49:46.620 our State Department and our own government is missing.

00:49:51.320 It's what I would call the fifth track of engagement, which is a missing dimension in statecraft.

00:49:57.920 And that is not speaking about religion or even spirituality, but rather since especially Muslims are deeply

00:50:09.360 spiritual people.

00:50:12.500 And they respect and honor one who brings faith to them in a way that's respectful.

00:50:20.780 So I did a talk with a pretty radical Muslim character in the UK, Muhammad Hijab. 0.63

00:50:31.740 I listened to it.

00:50:32.940 Yeah.

00:50:33.280 Well, you know, seven million people have watched that and most of them were Muslim.

00:50:37.340 And the responses are very interesting because there's a number of Hijab's acolytes, you might 1.00

00:50:44.020 say, who are making comments, but the typical comment is from the Muslim side is, we're so

00:50:51.620 glad and relieved that a conversation like this is happening and is possible.

00:50:56.500 And like, there was a lot of dissent amongst my team about me going to speak with Muhammad

00:51:01.700 Hijab. 0.85

00:51:02.480 And so like even five minutes before we were in the car on the way there, there were people

00:51:08.540 from my team calling me and saying, you shouldn't do this.

00:51:11.980 This isn't a good idea.

00:51:13.180 And, but it turned out to be a good idea because the conversation struck a chord and did indicate

00:51:22.160 that the kind of dialogue that you are describing is not only possible, but necessary and welcome,

00:51:31.960 especially on the Muslim side.

00:51:33.840 They seem, the Muslims, the people who commented in particular and the people who were there

00:51:38.300 seemed very relieved and excited that a serious conversation about at least quasi-theological

00:51:47.300 matters was possible.

00:51:48.680 And that could be done respectfully.

00:51:50.500 They were pleased to be, I don't know, invited to the table for the discussion, something like

00:51:57.480 that.

00:51:58.100 Okay.

00:51:58.480 So now you're seeing that when you're talking to the Palestinians and now you're starting 1.00

00:52:02.700 to broaden out your contact network, I presume.

00:52:05.240 Yes.

00:52:05.500 So, so what happens after that?

00:52:07.200 Well, besides, so the, the idea of the sonship of Jesus can be mitigated to a hair split

00:52:14.200 between Muslims and Christians.

00:52:16.380 And then we, they would say, they'd bring up other issues.

00:52:20.460 What about the Trinity?

00:52:21.960 What about the crucifixion?

00:52:22.900 Yeah, that's the question I was going to ask you.

00:52:25.100 Well, yes, there's a whole litany of issues that really, if done lovingly.

00:52:30.980 Now, what I mean by love is not like and agree so much.

00:52:35.900 But one of the, in 1 Corinthians, there is a love chapter.

00:52:39.860 And every wedding in America, and probably Canada, love is patient, love is kind.

00:52:45.840 Well, we decided to do, one of our studies was to do a deep dive in what are the 14 words

00:52:53.420 used in that chapter in Aramaic.

00:52:57.180 What are the sub-meetings?

00:52:58.660 What are the cultural contexts?

00:53:00.960 What, what, how do we look at it in antiquity?

00:53:02.880 To flesh out the...

00:53:04.080 Absolutely.

00:53:04.800 You know, large language models are very good at that, by the way.

00:53:07.600 You can use them technically to do that.

00:53:09.880 So we've done that, something very similar with the word God.

00:53:13.260 You can ask a large language model to specify the semantic domain of God.

00:53:18.420 And one of my colleagues has found a set of words that can be used to replace the concept

00:53:23.320 of God with 99.5% completeness, right?

00:53:27.680 So you imagine that the concept of God could be explicated by a cloud of closely related

00:53:33.800 words, which is, it sounds like that's what you're trying to do with the concept of love.

00:53:38.120 Exactly.

00:53:38.940 Okay, okay.

00:53:39.480 So you're doing that in Aramaic.

00:53:41.060 We find that the Hebrew cognates and the Quranic cognates, because they're all sister languages,

00:53:49.460 Hebrew, Aramaic, and Arabic are similar to Spanish, French, and Italian.

00:53:54.980 They're all based on Latin.

00:53:57.540 Most of the Arabic and Hebrew are based on Aramaic, the most ancient language.

00:54:03.840 But they're all cousins, regardless of the scholarly debates of which came first, which is frankly

00:54:10.280 irrelevant.

00:54:11.500 They're all similar.

00:54:13.040 They use similar words, understandable words.

00:54:15.960 And as a consequence, we're using these new common ground discoveries to engage people.

00:54:26.920 That was what was missing in Palestine during the visits.

00:54:30.360 We could talk about tea and coffee and family.

00:54:34.400 But I was ignorant in terms of faith, in terms of their faith.

00:54:38.820 Well, you also said something very interesting, which we should also not gloss over, which is

00:54:43.580 that you could imagine that the secular view of conflict is that it's primarily political

00:54:52.100 and economic, right?

00:54:54.220 And that's always struck me as wrong.

00:54:56.480 Political and economic conflict is secondary to conflict about first principles, about

00:55:02.340 conflict about, and that's really theological conflict when you get right down to it.

00:55:06.940 So it seems to me to be completely, it's as absurd to presume that you can make peace

00:55:12.600 without a theological discussion as it is to assume that if you decapitate a tyranny, it

00:55:17.780 will turn into a democracy, right?

00:55:19.860 Those are equally nonsensical propositions.

00:55:24.020 And that seems to be especially obvious, as you pointed out, what, it's 120 conflicts

00:55:29.300 in the world right now.

00:55:30.920 And what's the proportion of those that have to do with religious conflict?

00:55:37.080 Well, I didn't say religious.

00:55:38.580 Yeah, okay.

00:55:39.400 See, that word, we can get into it later.

00:55:41.580 Yeah.

00:55:41.800 It is a word I hardly ever use.

00:55:44.220 Okay.

00:55:44.820 With respect, because I know you use it frequently.

00:55:47.540 Yeah.

00:55:47.960 It's not in the Old Testament.

00:55:49.580 It's not in the New Testament.

00:55:51.400 And the Quran's use of religion, the word deen, that's the Arabic, really means the state

00:55:57.000 of one's life and submission to God.

00:55:59.940 So the notion of there is a institutionalized religious structure, there was in the Old Testament,

00:56:08.720 but they didn't even call it religion.

00:56:10.480 There's no notion of religion in Hebrew.

00:56:13.680 And the only time religion is mentioned in the New Testament, this is an important backdrop,

00:56:18.060 I hope, is in James, and it says, true religion is helping widows and orphans and keeping yourself 0.97

00:56:25.000 unstained from the evil of the world, which is what I believe is a real Quranic jihad, 1.00

00:56:31.220 incidentally, as an anecdote.

00:56:33.100 But getting back to it, the word is in Aramaic is ministry, not religion that implies creeds

00:56:40.460 doctrines, hierarchy, and so forth.

00:56:43.720 And religions divide people. 0.81

00:56:46.620 Even tribes divide people.

00:56:54.600 People are divided by so much besides religion, and even denominations can divide people.

00:57:00.900 But I found one thing that unites people, including a story, and you might read in the book about

00:57:08.580 the Dalai Lama, and that's Jesus.

00:57:11.620 Jesus does not have baggage of Christianity.

00:57:15.100 I'm not against it.

00:57:16.160 Yeah, yeah.

00:57:16.800 I don't want to make that clear, but I don't think Jesus needs Christianity to lift his teachings 0.90

00:57:23.660 up and lift who he was.

00:57:25.000 Yeah, there's plenty.

00:57:26.240 There's a number of people, a faction maybe, or maybe even more than that, in the prayer

00:57:31.480 group movement, a presidential prayer group that is distributed all across the Western world

00:57:39.060 now and beyond.

00:57:40.020 Oh, vastly beyond.

00:57:41.080 Yeah, that also seems to be, what would you say, staking itself on that particular belief,

00:57:49.760 right?

00:57:50.040 That there's something about the figure of Christ that's unifying outside, well, you said outside

00:57:56.040 the religious.

00:57:57.040 You also contrasted the religious, I thought, very interestingly, with the concept of ministry,

00:58:03.100 right?

00:58:03.580 Which is a very different idea, because ministry is, what is that, act of love, something like

00:58:08.920 that?

00:58:09.380 Yes, exactly.

00:58:09.480 So let's go back to the Aramaic cloud of words around love and proceed from there.

00:58:15.200 So there are, in Corinthians, seven elements, attributes to embrace and seven to avoid.

00:58:23.520 And we have turned it into what we may be presumptuously call an algorithm.

00:58:29.940 And we is who?

00:58:30.940 Well, those of us that have traveled making peace, there's numbers of Senate and House

00:58:37.580 members, religious people, both Christian, Muslim, and other.

00:58:42.380 We've traveled to 147 countries and worked on six conflicts and releasing 52.

00:58:50.000 This is, I'm not saying this is, we're, it's not, nothing to do with a brag or presumption,

00:58:57.560 but the work, these, this way of creating common ground, released 52 hostages and, and

00:59:05.100 believers in prisons all over the world, consistently. 0.61

00:59:08.880 And you said ameliorated six conflicts.

00:59:11.280 Yes, including a genocide.

00:59:13.400 Over what span of time has this occurred?

00:59:15.900 30 years.

00:59:17.560 Right.

00:59:17.860 Okay.

00:59:18.280 So we definitely want to, we definitely want to delve into that.

00:59:21.400 But it's based on love.

00:59:22.860 Right.

00:59:23.180 And now you're defining that.

00:59:24.540 You said there were six.

00:59:26.460 Seven attributes to embrace.

00:59:28.760 Right.

00:59:29.320 And seven to avoid.

00:59:30.480 Okay.

00:59:30.840 Okay.

00:59:31.120 For example, you are emitting love to me now by creating a safe environment by which we

00:59:40.080 can communicate together.

00:59:42.040 Okay.

00:59:42.360 And that's definitional.

00:59:43.720 So what is the.

00:59:44.440 That's behavioral.

00:59:45.880 Yeah.

00:59:46.180 Yeah.

00:59:46.380 Yeah.

00:59:46.600 Got it.

00:59:47.180 Well, that's what you do if you're, if you have any sense as a psychotherapist and that

00:59:51.460 is a logos process.

00:59:52.820 Is it?

00:59:53.780 Well, Carl Rogers was one of the people who formulated that most clearly.

00:59:59.400 The idea that if you, Freud was doing this, although he didn't, he didn't say as much

01:00:05.080 exactly, Freud believed that if you listen to people and let them speak without like spontaneously

01:00:11.680 and without expectation, that their minds would automatically devolve towards the problems

01:00:20.780 that confronted them and start to spin up something approximating a solution.

01:00:25.800 And Rogers, who was a Christian seminarian before he became a psychotherapist, he became

01:00:30.640 an atheist.

01:00:31.340 At least that's what he said.

01:00:32.720 But his doctrine was still intensely Christian.

01:00:35.080 He believed that if you, you could set up the preconditions for positive transformation

01:00:40.080 by setting up a dialogue, dialogical space.

01:00:44.320 A lot of Rogers' work has been used by peacemakers, like, like consciously by peacemakers trying

01:00:51.660 to mediate between groups with opposing views.

01:00:55.100 One of the Rogerian presuppositions, for example, it's very useful one is that you listen carefully

01:01:01.060 to what someone says, and then you repeat back to them what you think they said until they

01:01:08.520 agree with your summary to ensure that genuine comprehension has been established.

01:01:13.520 And it's a Rogerian presumption that when that happens, there's transformation on the part

01:01:17.920 of both participating parties.

01:01:20.040 But to me, that's just, that's a reflection of something Rogers knew as a Protestant seminarian,

01:01:25.100 that, you know, where there are two or more gathered in Christ's name, so to speak, then

01:01:30.280 the spirit is there.

01:01:32.080 And I think that's actually technically true from a psychological perspective, because when

01:01:37.460 people can communicate freely, a transformative process that aims at something like peace and

01:01:43.240 cooperation does make itself manifest.

01:01:46.300 And I think you can tell when that's happening, because the conversation is meaningful and

01:01:50.660 engaging.

01:01:51.500 That shows you how deeply that process is in accordance, even with the instincts that mediate

01:01:57.380 attention.

01:01:57.640 And you're very good at that.

01:01:59.220 Repeating back, you've been doing that.

01:02:01.580 Now you repeat back.

01:02:03.380 And we try to do that when we're talking to leaders, when they're saying, well, the United

01:02:08.060 States has done this, and they don't understand our position, and we patiently listen.

01:02:14.940 So creating a comfortable space, a safe space, listening, and not pushing or promoting an

01:02:23.340 agenda in terms of international peacemaking.

01:02:27.540 For example, we went to see Omar al-Bashir of the Sudan in the mid-2000s.

01:02:32.580 I say we, I mean there are sitting members, former members.

01:02:35.780 The delegations change, and we brought an American Sudanese Muslim who assured the president

01:02:43.960 that we weren't there to convert him.

01:02:46.020 Right, right, right.

01:02:47.440 Because this is one of the problems, you start talking about Jesus with anyone.

01:02:51.200 Ah, you're trying to convert me.

01:02:52.740 Yeah, yeah.

01:02:53.340 Well, we skirted that problem when I talked to Muhammad Hijab, because one of the things 1.00

01:02:58.340 that happened in the mosque was that we had a conversation about Christ, which went quite

01:03:03.660 well, I thought, remarkably well, given the circumstances.

01:03:07.080 But again, there was no attempt on my part, or Jonathan Paggio, a friend of mine, was with

01:03:14.380 me.

01:03:14.560 There was no attempt to convert, like to count saved souls, let's say.

01:03:20.140 It was merely a dialogue, right?

01:03:24.420 And an exploration, and so that lack of agenda, that's got to be something like humility in

01:03:32.620 search of peace, right?

01:03:33.900 Like if I want to forge in accord with you, the first thing I should at least do is try

01:03:39.260 to figure out who I'm dealing with.

01:03:41.560 And I'm not going to manage that at all until I listen, a lot.

01:03:45.200 And that's got to be way before I decide how we're going to proceed.

01:03:48.640 Because I don't understand at all how I could even possibly proceed with you unless I knew

01:03:53.520 who you were, what you valued, what you would conceptualize as peace, you know, whether that

01:04:01.180 was your goal, and if not, why not?

01:04:03.600 That requires an awful lot of listening.

01:04:05.780 Okay, so that love, you said, one of the attributes.

01:04:07.940 So there's several, you know, I say there are seven to embrace and seven aspects to avoid.

01:04:12.900 One of the things to avoid is not to shame or dishonor someone.

01:04:16.700 Do not, do not push an agenda.

01:04:20.420 Do not keep a record of wrongs that, oh, Mr. President, you armed the Janjaweed in Western 0.97

01:04:28.560 Sudan and Darfur, and you are massacring the African Muslims. 0.93

01:04:36.340 These are Arab Muslims.

01:04:37.780 There's a difference culturally in one part of Western Sudan called Darfur.

01:04:44.120 And there are two and a half million people displaced, and nearly a million people have

01:04:49.420 been killed, tens of thousands of women brutally raped.

01:04:53.280 Yeah.

01:04:54.780 Wasn't, that would be an elephant in the room, wouldn't you say?

01:04:57.460 Yeah, yeah.

01:04:58.340 And every single Western person that came to see him, what do you think the first thing

01:05:04.940 they did?

01:05:05.420 Shame?

01:05:06.960 Disgrace?

01:05:07.400 I'm not saying that he wasn't, didn't deserve it.

01:05:11.600 I'm just saying that love says you don't push that.

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01:06:19.280 Well, it's also, there's moral hazard in there too, you know, because, well, it has something

01:06:24.180 to do with the problem of seeing the moat in your neighbor's eye when you're not too

01:06:29.340 concerned about the beam in your own.

01:06:30.940 It's like, it might be the case that there is a litany of sins to be laid at your feet,

01:06:35.140 but it isn't necessarily obvious that me personally, I'm the one to do it.

01:06:39.720 I could be concerned about the errors I made.

01:06:42.020 That might be a better focus of my attention if I'm trying to understand you and make peace.

01:06:47.240 You know, and you could imagine that in any geopolitical discussion, there's going to

01:06:50.840 be egregious sins that could be discussed on behalf of both participants, especially if you

01:06:57.660 extend the historical timeframe, because no one's going to enter the room with a complete

01:07:03.280 like man of innocence if you go back like 300 years.

01:07:07.620 You are so right.

01:07:09.460 We went with congressional delegations to countries, especially communist countries, and we'd outline

01:07:16.340 Jordan issues that we had with their sins. 0.93

01:07:20.960 Yeah.

01:07:21.200 And then they would outline what we have done. 0.99

01:07:25.740 Well, you're hypocrites. 0.99

01:07:27.340 Yeah. 0.99

01:07:28.060 And they weren't wrong all the time.

01:07:30.240 Yeah, right.

01:07:30.760 I'm not saying America's horrible, but we do have, if you look back in our history with

01:07:35.600 slavery.

01:07:35.840 There's a few skeletons.

01:07:37.080 Yes, a few skeletons in Europe with all their expansionism. 0.70

01:07:42.080 There's definitely skeletons.

01:07:43.460 So why be diverted with arguing who's righteous and who isn't?

01:07:51.460 Well, that's also not the point of a discussion about peace, is if the discussion is about

01:07:56.720 peace, the search is for the pathway to peace.

01:07:59.820 The search isn't for the longest litany of previous wrongs that can be laid at the other

01:08:05.060 person's feet.

01:08:06.040 Obviously, that doesn't even work with your wife, let's say. 1.00

01:08:10.280 It certainly doesn't.

01:08:11.040 No, no, you enter the argument with an arm's length list of all the transgressions of the

01:08:16.620 past.

01:08:17.060 That's exactly what you see happening with couples who are on the precipice of divorce.

01:08:21.660 They can't bring any issue up without all the unresolved issues immediately, all the

01:08:26.860 unresolved demons immediately entering the fray and complicating things beyond belief, right?

01:08:33.220 So you enter the...

01:08:34.020 So we're sitting, think of this.

01:08:35.720 Now, say we were sitting together and we're talking to Omar Bashir in the midst of this

01:08:41.640 horrific, unimaginable genocide with atrocities beyond human understanding.

01:08:50.220 And we don't mention anything about the Janjaweed, the murders, the rapes, nothing.

01:08:55.300 We talk about, ask him about his family, his children, his wives, plural.

01:09:03.160 And we get to sharing the discoveries.

01:09:06.420 Now, here it comes.

01:09:08.300 Discoveries of the common ground.

01:09:10.740 Ardia Moustraka, the Arabic.

01:09:13.120 I tell him, Your Excellency, we have new common ground we haven't known before between the

01:09:20.280 Quran and the Bible.

01:09:21.740 He said, well, I thought you, I looked you up.

01:09:23.440 You're an evangelical, former, you know, congressman, and you're not very, you don't,

01:09:30.000 you're not very appreciative of Islam.

01:09:32.800 So, well, you know, that was then, this is, I've read your Quran.

01:09:35.940 And rather than saying, as so many Christians will do, it's of the devil and condemn the

01:09:42.240 prophet and such.

01:09:43.260 Rather than approaching it, love is, that's disdain again.

01:09:49.280 That is using shame again, or using a negative, hateful approach.

01:09:56.200 Rather than, we look for, look, one of the loves, too, in Aramaic is look for the best 0.99

01:10:01.840 inside of a person or a situation.

01:10:04.360 Right, right, right.

01:10:05.200 That's what you want.

01:10:06.120 What are we, what can we find?

01:10:06.940 Well, that's a good definition of love, I always thought, is.

01:10:09.860 It is.

01:10:10.320 The best in me serving the best in you.

01:10:12.540 That is in the Aramaic, but you wouldn't see it in the Greek, unfortunately.

01:10:16.900 That's in the Aramaic.

01:10:18.200 Absolutely.

01:10:19.060 It's one of the key to do, is look for the best.

01:10:23.060 It's a great definition of parenting, right?

01:10:25.940 If you're, well, if you're, that's what you hope is a father, that's the best in you,

01:10:29.820 that's serving the best in your child, definitely.

01:10:32.560 And that's what you want in a marriage.

01:10:35.480 And first of all, they're shocked.

01:10:37.960 You study the Quran?

01:10:39.300 Right, right.

01:10:40.000 I said, you studied this.

01:10:41.640 I've been studying it for years, Your Excellency.

01:10:44.360 Well, what do you think of it?

01:10:45.400 I think it's marvelous.

01:10:47.720 I have disagreements.

01:10:49.600 But I found things that I appreciated.

01:10:53.960 And so what is the transition?

01:10:56.240 Your Excellency, especially as it pertains to Jesus.

01:10:59.860 Yeah.

01:11:00.200 Oh, we love Jesus.

01:11:02.340 You can't be a Muslim without loving him.

01:11:05.440 Right, which is a very strange thing to realize.

01:11:07.900 And that was in your interview with Muhammad.

01:11:10.080 He said the same thing, as I recall.

01:11:12.400 They will all say that, which is true.

01:11:15.620 However, I say it's deeper than that.

01:11:18.080 And so I go through a machine gun litany of what the Quran says.

01:11:24.380 And I don't speak Arabic fluently, but enough words of the Quran to recite it in Arabic if necessary.

01:11:32.000 And we go through that he was supernaturally conceived, as we alluded to earlier, by the Holy Spirit and he is sinless.

01:11:39.060 He could heal the sick, the blind. 1.00

01:11:40.920 He could raise the dead.

01:11:42.480 He could form clay birds and breathe his breath on it.

01:11:47.440 And it became living beings.

01:11:49.560 What a miracle.

01:11:50.300 Allah took him up to heaven, and he's coming back on Judgment Day. 0.97

01:11:58.360 That's what all Christians believe, too.

01:12:00.700 So, of course, I appreciate that as part of the Quran.

01:12:04.560 And he looks like surprised, because very few Muslims have heard it all together.

01:12:10.040 And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

01:12:11.560 We have dozens and dozens and dozens of unbelievably divine attributes of Jesus in the Quran, like he's the word of God.

01:12:21.980 How much of that is outlined in your 2008 book?

01:12:24.880 Most of it, but not all of it.

01:12:26.840 Since then, there's been much more research.

01:12:29.740 Where is that available?

01:12:31.180 Well, I'm ready to do a trilogy of a new book called At War With Peace.

01:12:37.720 Yes, but where there are some people interested in making a movie first, and they asked me to hold it off and coordinate with the script and the release of a potential movie.

01:12:47.600 Could you do a course on that?

01:12:49.280 Absolutely.

01:12:50.500 Could you do a course for Peterson Academy on that?

01:12:54.200 You don't have to answer that.

01:12:55.500 Well, it would be an honor.

01:12:58.560 I know you have 50,000.

01:13:00.620 50,000 students, yeah.

01:13:02.020 We got 30 of the best professors in the world.

01:13:04.180 Yeah, it's coming along real nicely.

01:13:05.440 But that's a common ground between Islam, Christianity, and Judaism.

01:13:12.260 Well, that would be a wonderful course.

01:13:14.040 And it sounds like you've done a tremendous amount of background work preparing for that.

01:13:18.980 And so that would be a course I'd want to take.

01:13:22.240 So that's one of my criteria for determining whether a course should be offered.

01:13:26.360 Would I like to know that?

01:13:27.960 So back to the office of Omar al-Bashir.

01:13:32.520 Have we brought up anything politically yet?

01:13:35.820 The answer is no.

01:13:38.120 Yeah.

01:13:39.320 Families, friendship.

01:13:41.880 Then he interrupts.

01:13:43.900 He says, why are you really here?

01:13:47.400 Yeah.

01:13:48.860 I've heard Gaddafi did the same thing.

01:13:51.560 Why are you really here?

01:13:53.180 Yeah.

01:13:53.740 He said, the truth is, we want to become prayer partners and pray for peace together.

01:13:59.700 And together, discover the commonalities between the Quran and the Injil, which is the New Testament in Arabic.

01:14:07.820 And why would he be skeptical of that?

01:14:09.960 Like, why did he?

01:14:10.780 We talked already about the difference between the approach that you're using, let's say, in the classic State Department approach.

01:14:17.380 So how would you contrast the discussion that you had with him, in which this question arose, with what he would have expected from the typical diplomat?

01:14:26.540 Okay.

01:14:26.980 That's a very insightful question.

01:14:30.220 First of all, a typical diplomat, you know, diplomacy is shame.

01:14:35.400 Diplomacy, the things we alluded to earlier, and accusations, and failures, and positioning, and manipulation.

01:14:48.100 And then if they don't agree, and the politicians come in and assert themselves, and if the person to whom we are addressing these things to as diplomats disagree,

01:14:58.280 then we bring up the other two, what I call, tracts of engagement, and that would be economics.

01:15:04.780 We could threat sanctions on you, your government, or trade.

01:15:09.220 Right, so threat.

01:15:10.400 Threat, or military, peacekeeping, or bombing.

01:15:14.320 Take your choice.

01:15:15.580 Right.

01:15:15.900 So where is, my question, Jordan, where is the good cop?

01:15:20.540 You know, everyone's watched police shows during the interrogation.

01:15:24.080 And the first interrogator slams the table, says, you better talk.

01:15:30.160 Tell us everything.

01:15:31.220 You're going to prison for 30 years, and we're going to go after your mother, your father, your sister, and your brother.

01:15:37.140 And this person is frightened to death.

01:15:39.000 He's taken out, and his partner comes in and says, here's a cup of coffee.

01:15:42.460 Don't mind my partner.

01:15:44.240 Yeah.

01:15:45.080 You know, he gets a little emotional.

01:15:48.540 Part under the collar, yeah, yeah.

01:15:50.660 So don't pay.

01:15:51.280 See, in other words, where is the good cop in U.S. policy?

01:15:55.280 We don't have to be religious with this.

01:15:57.400 So if I were speaking to President Trump or Marco Rubio, who has the State Department, I would encourage them to consider some type of training for a special advisor or a special envoy that would be for peace and reconciliation.

01:16:20.380 Something I don't care about at the time.

01:16:22.860 How could we, in every country, there needs to be a good cop.

01:16:27.440 So we're sitting there, getting back to Omar al-Bashir.

01:16:30.580 He said, why are you here?

01:16:32.160 And I told him we're just here to be prayer partners, find common ground, and pray for peace.

01:16:37.860 So we leave.

01:16:39.040 We go back home.

01:16:39.580 Did he believe you?

01:16:40.720 Yes.

01:16:41.640 Why?

01:16:42.300 Why did he believe you?

01:16:43.200 I'll tell you why.

01:16:44.040 How much time do you spend with the president, typically?

01:16:47.280 Me?

01:16:48.080 Well, anyone, anyone.

01:16:49.920 A very short amount of time, yes.

01:16:51.700 Two and a half hours later, it was embarrassing, but we had to go.

01:16:56.600 He was still interested in talking.

01:16:58.700 Okay, got it.

01:16:59.620 So he said, well, can you come back?

01:17:01.800 Yeah, that's good evidence.

01:17:04.180 Yes, we will.

01:17:05.260 Within short weeks, we came back, all the way back to Hartman with another team.

01:17:09.580 This time, he had a room full of his scholars.

01:17:14.880 Oh, yeah.

01:17:15.800 All dressed in, you know, the Sudanese attire. 0.97

01:17:20.100 And some of my friends who hadn't experienced this before in politics were a little shocked.

01:17:26.580 I said, remember, if you're coming, you don't have to come with me.

01:17:31.520 I'm just a former member.

01:17:32.700 I'm a nobody, but we have behavioral agreement.

01:17:37.140 Do not bring up anything political.

01:17:39.940 Right.

01:17:40.120 Only ask personal questions unless they ask you.

01:17:44.360 Let them open the door.

01:17:45.860 So we spent two and a half hours again with all his scholars asking penetrating questions.

01:17:56.080 Well, about the crucifixion and what the Quran says and what about son of God.

01:18:01.040 All these provocative issues.

01:18:03.620 How do you feel confident in addressing those issues from a Christian perspective, let's say?

01:18:09.220 Because I presume you didn't bring a team of scholars with you.

01:18:12.240 No, I brought a Muslim scholar with me from America.

01:18:15.860 I always want to bring a Muslim to a Muslim meeting or a Buddhist to Buddhist meeting, if possible,

01:18:21.780 to let them know that we're safe through this safe environment.

01:18:26.580 And they have to feel like you're not there to ambush them in some fashion.

01:18:31.600 Yeah.

01:18:32.780 Well, I mean, how did I respond to them?

01:18:37.560 They were shocked because most scholars have not heard this.

01:18:42.820 I was in Oxford University lecturing to people way above my pay grade.

01:18:49.460 And the Brits were all sitting with their arms crossed.

01:18:53.140 They're good at that.

01:18:54.040 And 12 looking like this at me.

01:18:57.300 Yeah.

01:18:57.720 I think they have special classes in that.

01:18:59.720 My wife, Nancy, was in the front row.

01:19:05.680 And I tried to tell a joke.

01:19:09.880 Not one smile or flinch.

01:19:13.420 They all sat there in this.

01:19:15.660 Yeah.

01:19:16.280 Yeah.

01:19:16.520 And Yasser Suleiman, who was head of Islamic study, was the emcee and introduced me kindly.

01:19:22.460 And I felt I'm in big trouble.

01:19:26.000 My wife, similar to the Ukraine ambassador during the Oval Office meeting with Trump and Zelensky, went like, this is going to be a disaster. 0.67

01:19:35.020 So I quickly threw up a prayer.

01:19:38.660 I had all these fastidious notes because I'm not a scholar.

01:19:43.960 I have no paper in linguistics or Islamic studies.

01:19:47.880 Political scientists, yes, but not in those specifics.

01:19:52.260 And so they're probably wondering, why is this arrogant former congressman from America going to come and tell us something we don't know?

01:20:01.980 Right.

01:20:02.360 And they were, I could just, you could almost smell the angst.

01:20:09.140 Well, I felt it just led to close the book and just start talking to them, much like you do with people.

01:20:16.180 Uh-huh.

01:20:17.140 And said, I'm here because I want to validate some shocking discoveries that could be game changers if they're correct.

01:20:26.520 But I'm unschooled to know if they are and I need your help.

01:20:29.320 Immediately, their arms went like this, in this manner.

01:20:33.920 And Yasser Suleman ended up being one of the endorsers of the book, as was a few others in the audience.

01:20:39.840 Right.

01:20:40.180 So you turned yourself from a salesman of ideas into someone who's on a quest for enlightenment and them into the providers of that.

01:20:51.000 Hence the subtitle that HarperCollins came up with, not me, you know, a quest.

01:20:56.740 Yeah.

01:20:57.160 Because it's one thing if you think you know it all and you're a professor.

01:21:01.380 Yeah.

01:21:01.640 It's another thing if you're... 1.00

01:21:03.500 Ignorant. 1.00

01:21:04.180 Ignorant and trying to become less so, but still ignorant. 1.00

01:21:08.400 Yeah. 1.00

01:21:08.640 Which is, that's a better place to stand always, I think.

01:21:11.980 So this showed me something quite dynamic that don't presume that I know everything.

01:21:19.260 So we were presenting to the scholars findings in a similar fashion.

01:21:24.340 This is now back in Sudan.

01:21:25.340 Back in Khartoum, Sudan.

01:21:27.420 Yeah, yeah, okay.

01:21:27.880 With Omar al-Bashir.

01:21:29.360 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:21:30.140 And to the disdain of our government at the time, you know, which was the Bush administration,

01:21:36.720 they were just so angry with me going there.

01:21:40.200 Because I've been there 24 times, I told you.

01:21:42.900 And at this time, maybe this was only my second trip with him.

01:21:47.540 And on this second trip, after talking to scholars for hours, the president jumps out of his, leaps out of his seat, actually.

01:21:56.060 And I thought, we said something wrong.

01:21:59.400 Right, right, right.

01:22:00.140 Oh, no, I've seen this before.

01:22:02.180 The meeting's over, goodbye.

01:22:04.060 Right.

01:22:06.020 I said, well, I'm sorry, Your Excellency, if we said anything that offended.

01:22:10.700 Oh, no.

01:22:11.720 He says, we're having dinner.

01:22:14.540 And that's a good sign.

01:22:16.140 It turned out, I thought, a disaster.

01:22:19.060 And he opened these sliding doors, and there was a table for 30-some people lined up.

01:22:23.680 We all went in.

01:22:24.460 We were sitting together, breaking bread.

01:22:26.760 Yeah, yeah.

01:22:27.540 He always asked me to pray, because they don't pray before the food, typically.

01:22:32.460 They do a bismillah, which is in the name of God, and that's enough.

01:22:37.760 So he then, at this dinner, Jordan, said, well, now, Mark, you were in Congress.

01:22:44.800 I said, yes.

01:22:45.320 And you were in the UN.

01:22:46.500 I said, yes.

01:22:47.100 He said, you know, I can't accept this UN resolution to deploy peacekeepers in Darfur.

01:22:53.060 I said, I know you can't.

01:22:55.640 He said, what do you think I should do now?

01:22:58.180 Wow.

01:22:58.780 Who opened the door for the elephant to come in? 0.99

01:23:01.140 That's for sure.

01:23:01.160 Yeah, no kidding.

01:23:01.900 Yeah.

01:23:02.520 I said, well, since you asked.

01:23:03.980 And, of course, the team I'm with, he asked a question.

01:23:07.440 Right, right.

01:23:08.120 I didn't hear him say it, but I could feel it.

01:23:10.260 He was saying, oh, thank God he asked a question.

01:23:12.860 And I had this plan.

01:23:14.640 And see, God gave you very specific talents, and you're applying them and using them to

01:23:23.200 influence people, what I respect very highly.

01:23:27.340 And he gives each of us certain talents and backgrounds for reasons, and we have to discover

01:23:32.960 what that reason or reasons might be.

01:23:36.600 And right then and there, it occurred to me that this is why God had me in that useless

01:23:43.300 politics.

01:23:44.200 I've served in town council, state legislature, three terms.

01:23:47.740 Yeah.

01:23:48.040 Three terms.

01:23:48.680 I'm not trying to.

01:23:49.840 That was, at least, like, what a waste of time.

01:23:52.540 Mm-hmm.

01:23:53.400 Because you can't really get anything done.

01:23:55.200 Mm-hmm.

01:23:55.980 That's why.

01:23:57.680 So I could get in the door.

01:23:58.900 Why would he talk to me otherwise?

01:24:00.420 Yeah.

01:24:01.240 And ask a question such as that, knowing of the background.

01:24:05.360 So people calling you for your expertise.

01:24:09.160 And as a consequence, you can help and bless people and work with them.

01:24:14.040 And I gave him the plan.

01:24:15.260 I said, let's do a hybrid force of African unions. 0.92

01:24:19.100 It'll mostly be Africans and UN.

01:24:21.120 Let's make most of them Muslim. 1.00

01:24:23.060 And I'll talk to the Secretary General.

01:24:25.400 Ban Ki-ma, do you know him?

01:24:27.000 I said, yes, he's a Buddhist.

01:24:28.780 Mm-hmm.

01:24:29.480 And he's a very good man.

01:24:31.000 And we've become friends because his number one goal is to stop the genocide in Darfur.

01:24:37.000 And this is, just to remind viewers, this is in the mid-2000s, 2004, 5, 6.

01:24:42.640 And he said, I'll do it if you write it.

01:24:47.260 I said, I wasn't a bastard.

01:24:48.860 I didn't write anything, including speeches. 0.77

01:24:51.680 He said, no, but I think you could do it.

01:24:53.400 So we go to Dubai a few days later after Turing, Turing with his plane, the displacement camps in Darfur with hundreds of thousands of people living in a blue ocean of UN tarps underneath these blue tarps.

01:25:13.340 And the kids, hundreds, would see a white face and they'd come and, you know, talk about food.

01:25:18.420 And it was so heart-wrenching.

01:25:23.620 I mean, you have to say, well, this is what God made me to do.

01:25:29.540 Why am I here in the middle of nowhere in Darfur in this horrible crisis?

01:25:36.860 Then I go to a tent of hundreds of women who have been brutally raped and they're being attended to.

01:25:42.520 And they wanted, they said, can you give them a word of encouragement?

01:25:45.880 It was one of the hardest talks I've ever given.

01:25:50.180 What do you say to a person, persons that had experienced such horrific atrocities?

01:25:56.920 So right then, my heart was committed to do whatever it took and wherever God would lead me.

01:26:05.080 And once that was written, the resolution, the new resolution that saves his face, still accomplishes the goal.

01:26:15.180 It was much more detailed, but it's unnecessary to get into it.

01:26:18.360 And it passed the Security Council, even with some of our edits, they had to be corrected later that are, because we were typing in a business center in a hotel in Dubai with his staff.

01:26:31.020 And it literally went through and deployment of peacekeepers were accomplished and Ban Ki-moon.

01:26:37.640 And I went there to have a prayer session.

01:26:40.660 And keep in mind, he's Buddhist background.

01:26:43.620 Wonderful man, by the way, in my opinion, in terms of a human being and compassion.

01:26:48.780 So there's my wife who was with me.

01:26:53.320 And we go in to meet Bashir, the president and his foreign minister, with Ban Ki-moon and his chief of staff.

01:27:01.200 My wife was teasing him, because now I was friends with him, met him maybe 12 times.

01:27:06.560 And we prayed together.

01:27:08.600 He laughed and often offered me a Sudanese wife, because he thought I was a good Muslim, because I knew the Quran so well.

01:27:15.020 And she said, please don't offer my husband any more wives. 0.97

01:27:18.500 It was, as we say in North Carolina, a hoot and a half.

01:27:24.440 It was amazing.

01:27:25.240 And he laughed, and it really broke the ice.

01:27:27.960 Because, you know, Ban Ki-moon is a great stature of a U.N. Secretary General.

01:27:32.760 And then we started all laughing.

01:27:34.140 My wife left, and we went in the room.

01:27:36.200 We're having tea and crumpets.

01:27:38.600 And the president says, Omar al-Bashir.

01:27:44.000 Now, remember, it's Bashir, his foreign minister, the ambassador, his chief of staff.

01:27:52.180 I mean, his chief of staff of Ban Ki-moon, Ban Ki-moon, just the five of us.

01:27:56.360 He says, Mark, you pray.

01:27:58.320 He's always asking me to pray.

01:27:59.700 I don't know why.

01:28:00.940 So we hold hands.

01:28:02.180 Can you imagine this?

01:28:03.660 A Buddhist, Muslim, Christian, holding, praying, holding hands.

01:28:09.460 I got up and said, it's time for me to leave.

01:28:11.500 So we left, and the next day they signed the peace accord, and there's peace.

01:28:23.020 All right, sir.

01:28:24.080 Well, that's a very good place to bring this part of the conversation to an end.

01:28:30.020 I think for all of you watching and listening that you can join us on the Daily Wire side.

01:28:36.820 I think what we'll do there is you talked about six conflicts that you've been engaged in.

01:28:41.420 And I think we should probably delve into that and also discuss more about the resistance that the kinds of movements towards peace that you've been participating in have encountered and why those exist, why those have existed and still exist.

01:28:59.240 We got into that a little bit at the beginning of this conversation.

01:29:01.600 But I think we could, that's fertile ground for continued discussion.

01:29:06.420 So all of you watching and listening, you can join us on the Daily Wire side.

01:29:10.300 Thank you to the film crew here in Duluth, right?

01:29:13.840 We're in Duluth, right?

01:29:15.160 Yes, I had a talk here last night with Father Mike Schmitz, which went very well.

01:29:19.340 That'll be released on YouTube in relatively short order on faith.

01:29:23.020 And so that's probably worth paying attention to if you're inclined.

01:29:26.580 And thank you very much, sir.

01:29:28.080 That was absolutely riveting.

01:29:30.900 Thank you, Jordan.

01:29:31.600 Well, and I'm so interested, too, in following up with you with regard to the work you're doing on establishing this domain of foundational agreement.

01:29:40.400 At minimum, what that would mean is that, well, instead of fighting about all of this, you know, we would understand with the people that we have to share the planet with that we agree on all of this.

01:29:51.320 And, you know, maybe we can, this is something Carl Rogers did point out, you know, if you listen long enough, you find out that many of your problems vanish in the communication and those that remain are susceptible to intelligent and careful negotiation.

01:30:07.100 And so, God, I hope that's true.

01:30:09.440 It sure better be.

01:30:10.560 And your experience has been that it is.

01:30:12.920 And that's real experience and with real consequences.

01:30:15.960 And so that's very much worth knowing.

01:30:18.100 Very nice talking to you, sir.

01:30:19.340 Thank you, Jordan.

01:30:19.760 You bet.

01:30:20.140 You bet.

01:30:20.600 My honor.

01:30:21.320 Yep.

01:30:21.840 All right.

01:30:22.340 Thanks, everybody.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - March 31, 2025

534. How Some Muslim Countries Navigate Extremism ｜ Mark Siljander

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