The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 540. Former NFL Player on Masculinity

00:00:00.000 Oh, cool parrot. Does he talk?

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00:00:14.360 Where'd this parrot even come from?

00:00:15.840 Just flew in the window.

00:00:16.880 I mean, like, from where? The zoo?

00:00:19.200 The bank, I think. He's got a little suit on.

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00:00:25.180 Terms and conditions apply.

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00:00:28.420 BMO.

00:00:30.000 I'm very curious about how you see the relationship between the competitiveness that has characterized your athletic career and this calling to hire service.

00:00:41.840 To sum it up, it's to fight for people that can't fight for themselves, and competitiveness is not the problem.

00:00:48.080 It's where you steer it.

00:00:49.460 So you saw a lot of people who were suffering, and you knew that that was wrong.

00:00:53.420 I see the boy laying on the cot. I see his legs. I see they're on backwards.

00:00:57.160 And so I get a little bit emotional, but I hold it back.

00:00:59.920 And Sherwin is the name of the boy, looks at me and said, I've been told my whole life that I'm not impressive.

00:01:05.340 Let's go back.

00:01:06.160 I don't understand how you developed your athletic ability in relation to team sports and were homeschooled.

00:01:12.320 How did that come about?

00:01:13.400 Can I back it up even to my birth?

00:01:15.860 There was issues with the entire pregnancy.

00:01:18.860 The placenta wasn't properly attached.

00:01:20.720 She had amoeba dysentery.

00:01:22.040 She went into a coma.

00:01:23.200 The doctor who had finally helped my mom give birth, he looked at my parents and said,

00:01:27.680 I don't know how your baby boy is alive.

00:01:30.700 And God's got a special plan for your life.

00:01:33.840 Do you know what happens when you hear that over and over and over again?

00:01:37.040 You start to believe it.

00:01:38.300 So what did it mean to believe that when you were little?

00:01:56.120 I had the opportunity today to talk to one of the world's premier athletes, Tim Tebow.

00:02:00.700 And we had a very interesting conversation.

00:02:04.360 And I would say the crux of the matter is the relationship between masculinity, masculine competitiveness,

00:02:12.680 masculine striving for excellence, and virtue, all things considered.

00:02:18.940 Our culture is set up now in large part on the presupposition that competition

00:02:26.260 and that masculine striving for dominance and excellence is in itself a form of patriarchal oppressiveness.

00:02:34.420 And that's wrong.

00:02:35.780 And it's not only wrong, it's wrong in a deadly way because it demoralizes young men.

00:02:41.320 And when that happens, well, then young women don't have anybody to partner with.

00:02:45.040 And so that's just a complete bloody catastrophe.

00:02:47.680 And Tebow is a very interesting case because he's an excellent athlete and in multiple different

00:02:54.340 athletic domains.

00:02:55.840 And he's extremely competitive and averse to failure.

00:03:00.580 But at the same time, he's a very good man.

00:03:03.060 And he's figured out how to take that competitive striving and that desire for excellence and that

00:03:08.860 hatred of losing and to transmute it into a form of high-level motivation aimed at not only

00:03:17.100 the good of winning, let's say, in local competitions like athletic competitions, but the aim of winning

00:03:22.080 winning at the higher order purposes of life.

00:03:25.580 And so a lot of our conversation revolved around putting masculinity in its proper place so that

00:03:35.220 everything beneficial about it can flourish at the psychological relationship and social levels.

00:03:42.440 And so this is a crucially important conversation.

00:03:44.680 And I think we got to the core of the matter.

00:03:47.140 Now, that was embedded in a broader framework because Tim started out as a stellar athlete

00:03:54.140 and then a stellar team player, but he's expanded his endeavors into the business and philanthropic

00:04:00.100 realm.

00:04:00.920 And so we were able to have an abstract discussion about the relationship between competitiveness,

00:04:06.840 let's say, and virtue.

00:04:08.180 But we're able to ground that in something very solid, which is his transition from athlete

00:04:14.440 to businessman and philanthropist.

00:04:17.120 And so, well, these are important issues to sort out.

00:04:20.440 And if you want to develop your clarity of mind in relationship to such things, and if you

00:04:26.300 want to become a good, what would you say, a good motivator for your own purposes and a

00:04:32.700 good father to your own sons and a good leader to the people who are around you, then these

00:04:38.400 are issues that you have to be straight about.

00:04:40.360 And this discussion can help you figure out why you should do that and how you could go

00:04:45.560 about it.

00:04:46.420 So join us for that.

00:04:48.840 So your team sent me a video detailing out the operations of your foundation.

00:04:55.160 And I thought we might as well start by talking about that.

00:04:58.700 I was struck by its breadth.

00:05:02.240 And so I'm very curious about, well, I'd like to know more about the foundation.

00:05:07.140 And I'd like to know where it's distributed, what it's doing, and also how you set it up

00:05:13.560 and keep an eye on it.

00:05:14.940 So tell me about the foundation, Tim Tebow Foundation.

00:05:18.240 Well, I think I'd probably go back to the first time I was inspired that I really felt

00:05:24.020 like I was called to start a foundation or be involved.

00:05:27.720 And I wouldn't even say I even knew it was a foundation, but that's when I was 15 years

00:05:31.480 old and I was on a mission trip to the Philippines and as a country that I love very much.

00:05:36.500 I was actually born there, lived the first five years of my life there, and then went

00:05:41.580 back with my dad and a group of people to the Philippines.

00:05:44.940 And on this trip, we got to do a lot of amazing things.

00:05:47.900 But one of the islands I got to visit was a very remote island.

00:05:52.220 Philippines is made up of over 7,200 islands and many of them are extremely remote.

00:05:56.420 And I got to go to an extremely remote island and on this island, we get to share our faith

00:06:02.880 and encourage the people.

00:06:04.220 But one of the things that radically impacted my life was I had the privilege of meeting

00:06:09.160 a boy who was born with his feet on backwards.

00:06:11.480 And because he was born this way, he was treated as less than insignificant and cursed.

00:06:16.760 And he was a throwaway to the people there.

00:06:19.460 And my heart broke for him.

00:06:21.420 And I knew he wasn't a throwaway to God, but I just felt like God was pricking my heart

00:06:27.260 saying, okay, then what are you going to do about it?

00:06:30.600 If you know he's not a throwaway to me and you know he's not cursed, you know that he's

00:06:35.720 actually fearfully and wonderfully made, you know that he's one of one, he's loved, what

00:06:41.040 are you going to do about it?

00:06:42.260 And I didn't know, I didn't know what that meant.

00:06:45.800 I didn't know what that looked like in a practical.

00:06:47.480 I just knew going down that mountain that day and leaving that island that I was somehow

00:06:54.620 supposed to fight for boys and girls, to fight for people that couldn't fight for themselves.

00:07:00.520 And I'm only, was it maybe finishing my sophomore year of high school and I'm trying to figure

00:07:05.440 that out.

00:07:05.860 What does that look like?

00:07:06.940 And I get through high school and college and we were involved in different ministries

00:07:11.720 and orphan care.

00:07:12.900 And my dad's a missionary.

00:07:14.100 And so I got to grow up on the mission field and seeing a lot of that.

00:07:17.920 But the first thing I did when I graduated from the University of Florida was start the

00:07:23.240 foundation with the mission statement to bring faith, hope, and love to those needing a brighter

00:07:28.180 day in their darkest hour of need.

00:07:29.920 When I wrote that, all I did was think about that boy, where he was in his life and what

00:07:35.600 he needed to bring faith, hope, and love to someone in their darkest hour of need.

00:07:39.840 To sum it up, it's to fight for people that can't fight for themselves.

00:07:43.500 And when we presented this and when we launched the foundation, there were some people that

00:07:48.420 wanted to be supportive, like, oh, that's a good heart.

00:07:50.540 Thank you.

00:07:50.980 Good intentions.

00:07:52.100 But there were a lot of people that said, it's too broad.

00:07:55.540 You won't be successful.

00:07:56.880 You can't do all the things we were talking about because it started in orphan care and

00:08:02.540 then a hospital and special needs and wish granting organization.

00:08:05.980 And that's kind of how it started.

00:08:08.660 And so many people, I even remember at our first press conference to say, this is our

00:08:12.380 heart and our starting.

00:08:13.400 And this is what we're calling the foundation.

00:08:15.380 This is our mission statement.

00:08:16.440 And one of the first questions.

00:08:17.620 But don't you think it's too broad?

00:08:19.580 That was a strategy objection.

00:08:21.440 I think so.

00:08:24.740 And my response to it was, this is what I feel like we're called to do.

00:08:30.040 And every door that God opens that He wants us to run down, I don't want to say, oh, no,

00:08:35.580 because we want to be successful, we're only going to go down this.

00:08:39.160 No, we want to get to as many hurting people as possible.

00:08:42.600 And one of the ways that I like to share is I knew when I got to that island and I met

00:08:49.260 that boy that I love sports.

00:08:51.440 I love the game.

00:08:52.660 I love baseball, basketball, and football.

00:08:54.360 I love competing.

00:08:55.720 I loved winning.

00:08:56.820 I hated losing even more.

00:08:58.540 I was nth degree competitive.

00:09:01.660 And I had the chance to be somewhat successful at sports and win some championships and even

00:09:08.180 MVP sometimes.

00:09:11.320 And one of the things that I really felt like was pricked on my heart.

00:09:15.020 And I don't even know, Dr. Peterson, if I could have explained it verbally then.

00:09:19.260 As much as it was just in my heart.

00:09:21.440 But now the way I'd explain it was I was chasing, trying to be my best and every now and then

00:09:27.040 being the best.

00:09:27.940 And you could say chasing an MVP of most valuable player.

00:09:31.860 But God pricked my heart that day and said, I have a more important MVP for you to chase.

00:09:38.060 It's not the most valuable player.

00:09:40.500 It's the most vulnerable people.

00:09:43.420 Because they're worth far more than some other MVP.

00:09:47.780 You know, there's a weird paradox in your story because, well, many of them.

00:09:53.340 But I'm very curious about why this boy in particular.

00:09:57.180 Now, you know, so what you just said, there's a bunch of paradoxical elements to it because

00:10:01.960 you're obviously very competitive.

00:10:04.360 You really like winning.

00:10:05.540 You said you hate losing even more.

00:10:07.260 And that's actually an attitude that many people think is at odds with an attitude of

00:10:12.720 compassion, for example, right?

00:10:14.280 Because there's a huge movement in our culture to demonize competitive sports because they're

00:10:20.180 oppressive and aggressive.

00:10:22.700 And you were spectacularly successful as an athlete.

00:10:26.060 And you describe yourself as very competitive.

00:10:28.160 And yet you also were highly motivated to start this foundation.

00:10:32.880 And the boy that pricked your conscience, like you said you did, you were on your father's

00:10:38.620 missionary ventures in many places.

00:10:41.460 And yet it was this particular boy.

00:10:43.820 And you could think of him in a way as exactly the opposite of you because literally his feet

00:10:48.440 were on backwards.

00:10:49.300 And I'm curious about why you think it was him in particular.

00:10:53.200 I mean, you were in the Philippines and other places, so you saw a lot of people who were

00:10:56.620 suffering.

00:10:57.620 Like, why do you think it was that it was his existence per se that stood out for you?

00:11:03.700 And then the other thing I'm curious about in that regard is, you know, you said that as

00:11:07.400 far as the people in his village were concerned, he was a throwaway.

00:11:11.760 And you knew that that was wrong.

00:11:13.720 And so the first question might be, why do you think that it was obvious to the people in

00:11:18.940 the village that he was a throwaway, so to speak?

00:11:21.360 And why do you think that grated against you?

00:11:25.920 Like, what's the difference in perspective there?

00:11:27.980 So, well, that's a bunch of different questions.

00:11:30.180 So they're great questions.

00:11:31.900 I would start with my opinion on probably why they believed he was cursed and less than

00:11:37.860 it, because that's what they had been told for a long time.

00:11:41.740 That's what they had believed, that because he was born this way, he was cursed.

00:11:47.500 And it was a belief that he was less than.

00:11:52.600 And actually, to tell more of the story, when we got there and we gathered all the people

00:11:57.580 to share with them, to share our faith, it was my opportunity to share.

00:12:01.700 And I think it was probably around 1,200 people total in the whole village.

00:12:05.720 And I actually saw three boys leaving.

00:12:10.760 And you got to understand, this is weird, because the Filipinos love Americans.

00:12:14.140 I mean, they were fighting to get as close to us as possible.

00:12:16.840 They're so excited.

00:12:17.920 They have visitors.

00:12:18.620 Many would say, tell us that we're the first visitors that they had ever seen in their entire

00:12:23.900 life.

00:12:24.320 And so they're so excited.

00:12:25.940 And I see these three middle school age boys leaving.

00:12:28.960 And it just caught my eye.

00:12:30.680 Like, why?

00:12:31.840 People are, I mean, they're literally as close to us as possible as we're sharing.

00:12:36.520 And I finished, and I just had it on my heart.

00:12:39.020 I want to go see about these three boys.

00:12:40.660 Why did they leave?

00:12:41.900 And to make a long story short, I walked around the corner, and one of the boys came

00:12:45.260 just walking up to me.

00:12:46.700 And he grabs me by two of my fingers.

00:12:49.280 And I try to say hey to him.

00:12:50.220 He says nothing.

00:12:50.720 He just grabs me, and he pulls me back to this tiny little bamboo hut.

00:12:55.060 And he walks in there, and then I get on my knees, and I crawl in there.

00:12:58.940 And I see the other two boys, and one of them's sitting there holding a boy's hand like this,

00:13:04.620 and the other one's laying on the cot.

00:13:06.380 And it looks like everything's fine.

00:13:07.680 But then I see the boy laying on the cot.

00:13:09.760 I see his legs.

00:13:10.860 I see they're on backwards.

00:13:12.400 And it was really the first time I'd ever seen anything like this that close and personal.

00:13:16.920 And so I get a little bit emotional, but I hold it back, and I'm sitting there,

00:13:20.240 and I'm talking with these three boys, and I'm sharing why we're there,

00:13:24.000 and God's heart and love for them.

00:13:26.200 And the whole time, I just had to ask, though.

00:13:28.880 I don't know why.

00:13:29.640 I just feel like I had to ask.

00:13:31.540 Why did you leave?

00:13:33.200 When everybody was so excited to see the Americans, why did you leave?

00:13:38.680 And Sherwin is the name of the boy with his feet on backward, and looks at me and said,

00:13:44.140 because our principal really wants to make a good impression and impress the Americans.

00:13:48.000 And I've been told my whole life that I'm not impressive.

00:13:51.840 And I just knew that I was here now for a reason.

00:13:55.040 Right.

00:13:55.260 So he had to be hidden from you.

00:13:57.680 Yes.

00:13:58.260 Right.

00:13:58.560 Because it would bring the village into disgrace.

00:14:00.800 Yes.

00:14:01.500 Right.

00:14:01.800 See, there's a very interesting, it's not surprising that that had such an impact on you,

00:14:08.860 because the attitude that you're describing that would lead that boy to be isolated,

00:14:15.920 that is, you could say in a way that that's the standard human attitude towards abnormality.

00:14:23.480 Like, and I would say that was particularly true in the pre-Christian world, is that if

00:14:29.100 there was, if someone was deformed or abnormal in any way, that the conclusion would be that

00:14:35.780 they were cursed.

00:14:37.880 Yes.

00:14:38.360 And that they were less than.

00:14:40.600 Yes.

00:14:40.940 And the evidence would be the fact of their disability.

00:14:44.100 Yes.

00:14:44.340 And a huge part of the impact of the Christian revolution was that the last will be first.

00:14:52.800 Right.

00:14:53.060 And that the most appropriate target of true power is service to the people who are hurt

00:15:03.960 most.

00:15:04.820 It's a complete redefinition of what constitutes sovereignty.

00:15:07.700 That's an unbelievably revolutionary proposition, right?

00:15:11.880 That the king of everything should serve those who are most in need.

00:15:16.960 Yes.

00:15:17.200 And that the symbol of true sovereignty was the ability to engage in that service.

00:15:21.700 And so then you had a direct encounter with someone who was the opposite of what you were

00:15:27.980 celebrated for, really.

00:15:29.640 Right?

00:15:29.980 That's a good way of thinking about it.

00:15:32.460 And these boys that were with him, were they his friends?

00:15:35.940 Like, what?

00:15:36.700 They were.

00:15:37.240 And I would say Sherwin radically impacted my life.

00:15:41.120 But I also want to mention these two boys radically impacted my life, too, because they

00:15:47.740 weren't told to leave.

00:15:49.120 They left because they were not going to leave Sherwin.

00:15:54.120 So he didn't get to come to the group meeting.

00:15:55.780 So he didn't get to come.

00:15:57.060 And he was shunned.

00:15:58.380 He was there.

00:15:59.080 And they said, you need to leave so you don't disgrace everyone.

00:16:01.720 Oh, I see.

00:16:01.980 And they left, too, with him.

00:16:03.320 And so then when I'm with them, our team comes and they've been looking for me.

00:16:08.700 They found me in this bamboo hut.

00:16:10.240 And they're like, Timmy, we got to go.

00:16:11.380 And I'm like, no, I'm never leaving.

00:16:12.580 They're like, yes, you are.

00:16:13.280 Let's go.

00:16:14.140 And so as I'm getting ready to walk out, Sherwin says, with such hesitation, but would you carry me?

00:16:24.200 And I'm thinking, dude, of course, like, yes, like, no problem.

00:16:28.060 So I pick him up.

00:16:28.880 When I pick him up, one of his friends grabs a hand and the other grabs one of his feet and they hold on to him.

00:16:33.760 They're so close.

00:16:34.860 He made such a mark on me.

00:16:35.940 And we walk out of the bamboo hut and there was some of our team and then some of the Filipinos.

00:16:40.040 And when I step outside carrying him, you could literally hear an audible gasp.

00:16:45.960 And at first I'm thinking, what's what?

00:16:48.380 You know, like looking around.

00:16:49.600 But then I realized they were gasping because I was carrying the curse boy.

00:16:54.680 Yeah, right.

00:16:55.440 And that's how they were still hearing, even though they'd also just heard the good news of the gospel, that God loves everyone.

00:17:03.120 That every single one is fearfully and wonderfully made and I'm carrying him through some of the crowd.

00:17:09.540 And you could see some of the people, like, almost watch them contemplating, wait a second, is he cursed or is he loved and valuable as the Americans were telling us?

00:17:21.180 And you see, some don't know, but then finally one of the elders of the village, as we're walking by, walks up and puts her hand on his shoulder as to say, sort of, you're now welcome here.

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00:18:33.880 And then another one did it, another one, but still some would back off.

00:18:39.500 Like, we're not still sure.

00:18:40.900 Right.

00:18:41.120 And then team saying, we got to go.

00:18:43.420 So we walk over to the Jeep and I set Sherwin down.

00:18:46.780 I put his arms around his two friends and I get on my knees and I pray with these three boys.

00:18:51.040 And I tell them, I don't know when I'm going to get to see you again, if I'm going to get to see you again in the Philippines or if you'll get to see me in America.

00:18:58.360 But I totally believe one day I'll be able to see you in heaven.

00:19:02.220 And Sherwin looks at me and says, which means brother, I can't wait to run with you in heaven.

00:19:07.480 And it's a boy who's never walked a day in his life.

00:19:10.480 But somehow the first thought he had was, I can't wait to run with you in heaven.

00:19:14.560 So what became of Sherwin?

00:19:16.620 How did that?

00:19:17.840 I don't know.

00:19:18.520 I so wish we would have been able to get back to that island and that village and meet him.

00:19:30.340 But I do know now that many boys and girls in the Philippines, because of our amazing team and partners, that there's a hospital that cares for boys and girls just like him, that we bring them in from all over the country.

00:19:43.540 And many times they're wheeled in or carried in, but they get to walk out and they get to be loved and cared for along the way.

00:19:50.580 And I'm so grateful because that happened because of Sherwin.

00:19:53.340 Right, right, right.

00:19:55.960 All right.

00:19:56.620 So now we also talked about the other paradoxical element here was this issue of competition.

00:20:02.620 And so you said a couple of things.

00:20:05.120 You said that you were very motivated to become the best football player, the MVP.

00:20:13.060 And you said you were also called to serve the most vulnerable people.

00:20:16.420 So that's kind of a nice analog.

00:20:18.360 But I'm very curious about how you see the relationship between the competitiveness that has characterized your athletic career and this calling to higher service.

00:20:31.920 Because as I pointed out, people often believe that that competitive spirit is the antithesis of the...

00:20:39.540 I totally disagree.

00:20:41.260 Okay, okay.

00:20:41.820 So I want to hear why.

00:20:43.360 I believe wholeheartedly that competitiveness is not the problem.

00:20:50.320 It's where you steer it.

00:20:51.580 Now, if that competitiveness is steered with the ultimate goal of just win or success or a game or championship, then you're missing the mark.

00:21:00.120 And I don't even think those things are wrong.

00:21:01.900 Right, right.

00:21:02.140 It's not that they're wrong, but are those first place in your mind and in your heart?

00:21:06.440 Are those more valuable?

00:21:08.340 How do you figure that out?

00:21:09.300 By failing a lot at it, I think.

00:21:11.000 Okay, well, I'm very curious about that.

00:21:13.400 Okay, so now you said by the time you were 15, you know, you were already in a position psychologically so that when you went to the Philippines, you could have the experience that you just described.

00:21:23.980 So you're already reasonably awake.

00:21:25.680 Now, let's go back.

00:21:27.020 Like, you were homeschooled, I understand.

00:21:28.740 I'm a bit reasonably awake.

00:21:29.980 Well, you know, how awake can you be at 15?

00:21:32.360 You know, I mean, hopefully you're more awake now, like we all are by the time we're older.

00:21:37.560 So let's go back.

00:21:39.080 Now, you were homeschooled.

00:21:40.620 Yes, sir.

00:21:41.000 Okay, so tell me about, and everybody else, about how your athletic ability developed and how that related to being homeschooled and then how that came about.

00:21:51.900 And then I want to take that thread and I want to tie it to what you just described, which is, see, because you said something that's very profound.

00:21:59.340 So my son is a very competitive person and he was an ornery little kid and he was a lot of fun to have around because he was a really tough little kid.

00:22:08.440 He basically had his mother defeated already when he was nine months old and she's tough.

00:22:13.540 And so, you know, he was very goal directed and he didn't like anything getting in his way and he had a will.

00:22:18.800 And what he managed to do and very young, by the time he was three, this was already pretty much in place, he managed to integrate that competitiveness into a very disciplined personality that was also very diplomatic.

00:22:33.280 And then he became a very good athlete and he became the sort of athlete that people also really wanted to have on their team.

00:22:41.080 And so what he did with that competitive masculine drive was put it in the right place.

00:22:46.660 You know, when God calls on Adam, this is Adam's job as the spirit, the human spirit that continues the process of creation.

00:22:57.800 God calls upon Adam to name things and to subdue them, which means to put them in their proper place with relationship to one another.

00:23:06.300 And your claim was that that competitive spirit, if it is directed only towards victory, only towards victory and say self-aggrandizement, then it can become a curse.

00:23:16.560 But if it's put in its right place, subordinate to something higher, then it's a benefit.

00:23:20.960 And that's intelligence is like that too, you know, when it's king of the castle, it's Satan himself, it's Lucifer.

00:23:28.000 But when it's in the right place, it's the highest of all serving angels, you could say.

00:23:34.140 So let's go back.

00:23:36.040 I would like to know how your athletic ability developed, especially given that you're homeschooled.

00:23:42.280 And then I want to know how you figured out how to keep that in the proper place, given, you know, you had so much success that it could have been,

00:23:52.200 it must have even been tempting for you to become narcissistic about that.

00:23:57.600 I mean, that's an easy path for people to take when their ability makes them stand out in such a spectacular way.

00:24:04.280 And so, but it seems to me that even by the time you were 15, you knew that that was, there was something deeply inappropriate about that.

00:24:10.260 So let's go back.

00:24:11.480 Like, how did, I don't understand how you, how you developed your athletic ability in relation to team sports and were homeschooled.

00:24:20.260 How did that come about?

00:24:21.320 Can I back it up even to my birth?

00:24:23.860 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:24:24.600 Start at the beginning.

00:24:25.060 Because I think, I think that plays a lot into it.

00:24:29.300 When, in 1986, my dad was preaching in a remote village in the Philippines.

00:24:35.000 And before he went on stage to preach, he just started to weep for all of the babies that were being aborted around the world.

00:24:44.000 And just this almost uncontrollable weeping and mourning.

00:24:47.500 And he, my mom and dad had four kids at the time living in the Philippines.

00:24:53.540 And as he was weeping, he felt God put it on his heart to have another child.

00:25:00.440 And if it was a boy that God put on his heart, his name would be Timothy, which means honoring God.

00:25:07.180 And he went home and told my mom that God had put this on his heart.

00:25:13.080 My mom's like, well, God didn't put it on my heart.

00:25:15.100 So I don't know what you want to do.

00:25:16.120 Yeah, seems like it's really, she's really involved in the whole deal.

00:25:21.280 She started to pray about it.

00:25:23.040 And not long after, God put it on her heart.

00:25:25.740 And not long after that, she became pregnant.

00:25:28.100 At least they thought she was pregnant.

00:25:29.840 But then some of the doctors said, no, it's not a baby.

00:25:32.900 It's a tumor.

00:25:33.960 It's a massive fetal tissue.

00:25:35.300 And then they found out, long story made short, it was a baby.

00:25:41.060 And they wanted her to have an abortion or it'll cost her life and my life.

00:25:45.780 And I'm just so grateful for my mom and my dad because in the middle of this,

00:25:50.900 they trusted God and loved me and gave me a chance.

00:25:54.860 And there was issues with the entire pregnancy.

00:25:59.160 The placenta wasn't properly attached.

00:26:01.000 She had amoeba dysentery.

00:26:02.220 She went into a coma, all sorts of different things in the pregnancy.

00:26:06.440 And the doctor who finally helped my mom give birth had done this for thousands and thousands

00:26:13.500 of women.

00:26:14.160 And he looked at my parents and said, I don't know how your baby boy is alive because the

00:26:20.780 placenta is barely attached.

00:26:22.280 All of these issues.

00:26:23.320 It's the greatest miracle that I've ever seen.

00:26:25.800 And I was malnourished, but I did make up for it pretty quickly.

00:26:30.580 How old was your mom?

00:26:31.820 When you were born?

00:26:33.580 Oh my goodness.

00:26:35.440 It's probably closer to 40.

00:26:38.380 No, no, no.

00:26:39.340 Probably a little bit younger than that, but she wasn't older.

00:26:41.720 I was a baby of five.

00:26:42.860 So probably around 35 maybe.

00:26:45.100 Okay.

00:26:45.380 Okay.

00:26:45.600 And I think that was very impactful for me, not just for that time as a baby, but then

00:26:56.760 growing up, my parents would say to me almost every night, Timia, we want you to know God

00:27:04.400 spared you for a reason.

00:27:05.660 You were a miracle baby.

00:27:08.380 And God's got a special plan for your life.

00:27:12.280 Do you know what happens when you hear that over and over and over again?

00:27:15.480 You start to believe it.

00:27:16.820 So what did it mean to believe that when you were little?

00:27:21.660 That you're not here by happenstance, that you're not here by accident, that you're here

00:27:26.660 on purpose, for a purpose, with a purpose.

00:27:29.420 Right, right.

00:27:29.960 So you have a destiny.

00:27:31.440 Yes.

00:27:32.060 And I've also fell in love with sports at a very early age.

00:27:36.620 My whole family, insanely competitive.

00:27:38.960 Like you would love them.

00:27:40.140 They're awesome people.

00:27:41.420 Like my parents are two of my biggest heroes.

00:27:43.880 But like if we all sat down and played like Monopoly or Risk, you would think we hate each

00:27:48.180 other.

00:27:48.400 We're so competitive.

00:27:49.540 But it's just our whole family's that way.

00:27:52.360 And when we moved back from the States, we moved right here to Jacksonville, Florida.

00:27:56.580 And they were like, we got to sign him up for sports.

00:27:59.940 So they signed me up for T-ball at Normandy Baseball Park.

00:28:03.220 And I was so excited.

00:28:04.080 I show up to the first game on the White Sox and number 35, just like my favorite player,

00:28:09.340 Frank Thomas.

00:28:10.060 And Coach Langley gathers us together before we take the field for the first inning.

00:28:13.500 He says, okay, guys, now it doesn't matter whether you win or lose.

00:28:16.980 It's only about having fun.

00:28:19.020 I got to be honest.

00:28:19.880 We've only been in America for a little bit.

00:28:21.280 And I'm thinking, is this what America is about?

00:28:23.840 Because this sucks.

00:28:25.080 And I say, you ain't got a shirt.

00:28:26.440 And I say, no, coach, you're wrong.

00:28:27.860 It's only about winning.

00:28:29.040 That's when you have fun.

00:28:30.700 Right.

00:28:31.780 He doesn't know what to do with me.

00:28:33.740 So this is a really important point.

00:28:35.500 So there's a developmental psychologist named Jean Piaget, who was the world's greatest

00:28:40.240 developmental psychologist.

00:28:41.460 And he was very, very interested in the relationship between games and socialization and social order.

00:28:48.020 And so Piaget believed, proved, I think, especially in light of later research, that the games that

00:28:55.220 children play are a microcosm of society and that the idea that competition is wrong is

00:29:01.060 predicated on a misunderstanding of the relationship between competition and cooperation.

00:29:07.560 So because if you have, imagine a typical basketball game, you have two teams and obviously the teams

00:29:14.660 are competing with one another.

00:29:15.760 And so then you can take one team and you can say that players are competing with one

00:29:19.680 another to be the best player.

00:29:21.500 And so the whole thing is saturated with competition and that's patriarchal and oppressive and aggressive

00:29:26.520 and all those terrible things.

00:29:28.000 But what people who undertake that analysis fail to understand is that while the basketball teams

00:29:35.440 are competing with each other at one level, but at a higher level, they're cooperating because

00:29:40.160 they're playing by the same rules.

00:29:42.040 So the overall frame is one of cooperation.

00:29:45.780 We've agreed to abide by the same rules.

00:29:49.000 And then within the team, the same thing applies.

00:29:51.680 It's like, we're all struggling to be the best, but we're struggling as a team.

00:29:57.380 And so what that means is that each of our struggles to be the best can support the whole team

00:30:02.220 and they can support each of our individual attempts to struggle to be the best.

00:30:07.500 Now you related that to your family.

00:30:10.620 And so the first part of the story is we have a really tight family and everyone's aiming

00:30:14.980 up and they're oriented properly.

00:30:16.860 So that's the cooperative frame.

00:30:18.560 And then the competition frame is, well, once we've established the foundations of upward

00:30:23.960 striving cooperation, we can scrap like mad dogs and that makes us better and that makes

00:30:30.340 the game fun.

00:30:31.860 And the coach that you described, he didn't understand that.

00:30:35.080 He thought that fun was what you had when you weren't being competitive.

00:30:40.040 Right.

00:30:40.420 Well, and every kid knows that's nonsense because if kids have the opportunity to select their

00:30:46.340 own teammates, you know, you know how one, the captain picks and then the other captain

00:30:51.140 picks is the kids will automatically pick the best athletes or the most competitive.

00:30:55.720 You're not going to pick the worst ones.

00:30:57.060 No, definitely not.

00:30:58.100 You want to win.

00:30:59.160 Yeah.

00:30:59.480 Yeah.

00:30:59.960 Well, and it's also a betrayal of the principles of the game to not try to win because the

00:31:05.980 question immediately arises, every child understands this intrinsically is, well, if you're not

00:31:11.420 trying to win, what the hell is the game for?

00:31:14.540 That's right.

00:31:15.020 Even when they say don't keep score, every kid still keeps score in their head.

00:31:19.720 Yeah.

00:31:19.940 Like, um, yeah, don't keep score.

00:31:22.500 It's like, what that means is don't keep score means what you're doing is irrelevant because

00:31:27.820 no matter what you do at what level, it's all the same and it's equal fun.

00:31:33.040 And that's, there's no excellence in that, right?

00:31:36.100 Agreed.

00:31:37.820 And I think one of the interesting things that I believe the story touches on is then he doesn't

00:31:43.680 understand me.

00:31:44.440 Let's the rest of the kids go to their places.

00:31:46.380 And he says, will you wait right here?

00:31:47.580 And he walks down the first baseline to where my dad is.

00:31:50.740 And he says, Mr. Tebow, will you come in here?

00:31:52.200 My dad walks down and he said, Mr. Tebow, I think we have a problem with your son.

00:31:56.580 And he said, oh, what's the problem?

00:31:57.960 And he said, uh, he's overly competitive.

00:32:00.520 Right.

00:32:00.820 So that was your first day.

00:32:02.020 That's my first day.

00:32:02.900 Oh, great.

00:32:03.520 And so my dad, my dad comes walking around the chain link fence, you know, and I'm thinking,

00:32:08.480 oh no, like I just screwed up.

00:32:11.140 I'm about to get in trouble.

00:32:12.340 Yeah.

00:32:12.540 And I look at my dad and I see he's, he's got a belt on and I'm like, oh no, I'm about to get

00:32:16.580 the spanking on first base.

00:32:18.200 Oh no, this is terrible.

00:32:19.400 This is not a good day.

00:32:20.440 This is not a good day.

00:32:21.540 Like to me, it's a world series, super ball all mixed into one.

00:32:24.740 He opens the chain link fence, he comes walking over.

00:32:27.280 He's got, my dad, especially then was a pretty, uh, stern looking, intimidating looking guy.

00:32:32.260 And he walks over, he leans over and he looks me in the eye and he says, Timmy, it's okay.

00:32:36.620 He just doesn't understand.

00:32:38.420 Oh boy.

00:32:39.020 He doesn't get it.

00:32:40.360 And I was like, yes, that's good.

00:32:41.800 Oh man, that's good.

00:32:42.440 Yeah.

00:32:42.700 Well, that's so important because I don't know, like I've interviewed a lot of people.

00:32:48.340 Well, in my clinical practice, but then 500 people, I guess, as part of this podcast.

00:32:54.420 And one of the things I'm always curious about is because all the people I interview have

00:32:58.560 been outstanding in one way or another.

00:33:00.360 And I'm very curious to see what makes them tick.

00:33:04.460 And one of the things that's pretty much universal among them is that both their parents had their

00:33:10.380 backs, you know, and I think if you look at that developmentally, what you see, this

00:33:14.800 is a cliche, I suppose, but it's basically right, is that what you get from your mother

00:33:22.300 is especially really early in life is this embodied sense of your ultimate value because

00:33:31.420 a mother, especially in the first year, has to sacrifice everything to indicate to you

00:33:37.640 that it's a good thing that something as small and useless as you actually is around, right?

00:33:42.760 So she subjugates everything to establishing that relationship and enticing you into the world.

00:33:48.540 So, you know, if you take babies and you give them food and shelter and warmth, like material

00:33:54.800 security, but they don't get attention and they don't get touch, they die, right?

00:33:59.440 100% of them die without maternal attention.

00:34:02.220 And that's even the case for complex animals like rats.

00:34:05.340 It's like maternal attention and touch, love, is a primary need.

00:34:11.580 So a baby's eyes literally have the natural focal distance of eye to breast.

00:34:17.260 That's where they see most naturally.

00:34:19.640 And so the mother sets that inclusion foundation.

00:34:24.120 But then the father's goal is to have your back in situations like that and to say to you,

00:34:30.640 particularly, particularly this, see, you see this in the story of Abraham because God

00:34:36.180 comes to Abraham as the spirit of adventure.

00:34:39.200 So God comes to Abraham, he's like in his 70s and he's being dependent and infantilized and

00:34:45.240 overly secure his whole life because his parents are rich.

00:34:48.880 So he doesn't have to lift a finger.

00:34:50.760 And God says to him, you go out in the world and have your adventure and everything will

00:34:55.220 come to you.

00:34:55.740 You'll be a blessing to yourself.

00:34:57.280 You'll establish something of permanence.

00:34:59.620 You'll be, your name will become known among everyone and validly.

00:35:03.400 And you'll do that in a way that will bring abundance to everyone else.

00:35:06.400 If you're adventurous, if you strive forward, and that's what your father did for you that

00:35:11.040 day.

00:35:11.520 You know, he said, even in the face of your coach, he said, no, your desire to put everything

00:35:18.920 behind it and to become victorious.

00:35:21.780 That's correct.

00:35:22.940 And that's a very complicated thing to get right.

00:35:25.180 Very complicated.

00:35:25.540 You know, and you guys had just come back to the States too, eh?

00:35:28.040 Yes.

00:35:28.340 During this holy season, I'd like us to take a moment to think about something amazing.

00:35:33.700 You.

00:35:34.360 Psalms tells us that God carefully knit you together in your mother's womb.

00:35:37.860 He saw who you were meant to be before you even existed.

00:35:40.600 At Preborn Ministries, they believe each person is made in God's image and that all life is

00:35:44.960 sacred and eternal.

00:35:46.240 Maybe not all pregnancies are planned, but that's okay.

00:35:48.620 Whether they're planned or not, all life has incredible value.

00:35:51.760 And God has a purpose for everyone.

00:35:53.500 Each day, they're here.

00:35:54.800 Today, I invite you to thank God for the gift of life and to remember the baby's

00:35:58.200 still in their mother's womb.

00:35:59.560 Their lives matter too.

00:36:00.780 Last year alone, Preborn's network of clinics helped save over 67,000 babies from abortion.

00:36:05.860 Your tax-deductible donation of $28 sponsors one ultrasound, which doubles a baby's chance

00:36:10.940 at life.

00:36:11.680 How many lives can you help save today?

00:36:13.320 To donate, just dial pound 250 and say baby or visit preborn.com slash Jordan today.

00:36:19.720 Again, to make a donation and sponsor one ultrasound, visit preborn.com slash Jordan.

00:36:24.120 Thank you for supporting this life-saving work.

00:36:28.200 But I want to add to that because I think it makes a powerful point.

00:36:33.720 So that game we play and ultimately, I mean, we have teammates that are in the outfield looking

00:36:39.480 for four-leaf clovers and half the kids just care about what color snow cone they get after

00:36:43.360 the game.

00:36:43.940 And they find out I'm a decent athlete.

00:36:46.020 You know, they didn't know because we were overseas, but they find out I'm decent at the

00:36:49.360 game.

00:36:49.580 I mean, I did pretty good, but my parents also found out how easy it was for me to become

00:36:55.320 extremely arrogant and proud because that's on a Saturday.

00:36:58.840 And the first thing I want to do after the first game is tell everybody how I did.

00:37:02.780 Hey, guess what?

00:37:03.340 I had this many hits.

00:37:04.220 I had this many home runs.

00:37:05.200 I made this many plays and I wanted to tell everybody.

00:37:07.760 And so the first thing my parents did was instill a rule for me and my siblings, but specifically

00:37:14.260 really for me, that before we were allowed to play a sporting activity, we would have

00:37:19.020 to memorize scripture verses, but specifically on humility.

00:37:22.660 And I'm so grateful, even though I couldn't understand a lot of them at the time or maybe

00:37:31.340 what they all meant, and I'm still maybe don't always understand what they mean, but they

00:37:36.440 started to instill that, not just about the balance of competition, but no, be competitive.

00:37:44.220 Go win.

00:37:44.960 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might.

00:37:47.700 Yeah, yeah.

00:37:48.340 But it's not everything.

00:37:51.320 And I remember one of the first verses I did to memorize, the greatest among you will be

00:37:55.320 a servant.

00:37:55.820 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled.

00:37:57.560 Whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

00:37:59.220 So they were teaching me to go compete or allowing me to go compete and supporting me, but then

00:38:05.400 they would say, winning at this isn't everything.

00:38:08.240 Yeah.

00:38:08.820 And then try to use that as an example.

00:38:12.740 How did you understand that as a kid?

00:38:14.640 Because that's a very paradoxical thing to hold in mind, right?

00:38:17.700 It's like, well, if winning is crucial and if I should throw everything behind it, then

00:38:23.040 why aren't I the greatest thing in the universe if I manage that successfully, right?

00:38:26.860 That's a very difficult thing to figure out.

00:38:28.620 And you see kids, you know, my son participated in pretty advanced hockey and soccer because

00:38:34.820 he was a pretty good athlete.

00:38:36.680 And oh man, a lot of the parents, we saw the worst displays of human behavior at hockey

00:38:44.800 games and soccer games in Canada that you can possibly imagine.

00:38:47.740 Like the parents were just utterly demented, right?

00:38:50.460 And a lot of them, they were just crazy.

00:38:54.020 There's probably a few parents like that here in the South for baseball, basketball, and

00:38:58.500 football as well.

00:38:59.440 Yeah, no doubt.

00:38:59.940 I mean, we went to a hockey game at one point where this character, whose son was a pretty

00:39:04.420 good player.

00:39:04.980 So in a hockey arena, you have the glass, of course, that stops people from being brained

00:39:09.980 by random pucks.

00:39:11.180 And between the glass, there'd be a space about this big between the sheets of glass.

00:39:15.180 And this guy would park himself with his mouth between those spaces and do nothing the entire

00:39:21.800 game except yell insults at the referee.

00:39:25.280 And that was his contribution to the game.

00:39:27.980 Like Tammy and I used to go sit somewhere empty to be away from the parents because they

00:39:33.620 were pumping up the egos of their kids, you know, and you could see that they were acting

00:39:38.680 out their own unlived dreams.

00:39:40.580 That's a good way of thinking about it, which is not something you should do with your kids.

00:39:44.400 But it does point to this underlying paradox, which is, well, you want to encourage your

00:39:51.360 children to be the best at what they do, and that might make them socially dominant

00:39:56.520 and intimidating and admirable.

00:39:59.820 And if they are all those things, then why shouldn't they be narcissistic and self-aggrandizing?

00:40:06.860 Because after all, they're wonderful.

00:40:08.540 And that's a really hard thing to get right.

00:40:10.420 Now, your parents, you also described your dad as a, so he's a missionary, but he doesn't

00:40:16.340 sound to me like someone who's naive or soft.

00:40:19.120 No, my dad would not be someone that was soft.

00:40:23.720 My dad is one of the most courageous people I've ever met in my life.

00:40:28.660 If one day I could ever get to a tenth of his courage, it would be a good day.

00:40:33.920 So what made him?

00:40:35.500 Any idea what made him what he is?

00:40:37.660 I think his belief, his faith in Christ, and that propels him.

00:40:43.360 And the confidence and the hope that it gives him.

00:40:48.280 And my mom, both of them were willing to go to the mission field with four kids, have

00:40:53.460 one more while they're there, go to really hard places.

00:40:57.520 My dad was put into jail multiple times in different countries when he would go and share.

00:41:02.560 And I think one of the greatest things I could say about my dad is he gave the majority of

00:41:07.760 his adult life to help people that could never do anything for him.

00:41:12.040 And my mom was there to support and handle and love so much while he's gone.

00:41:18.520 And because they knew they were called to do that.

00:41:21.520 And when I mean courage is that my dad would go into places and they would say, hey, if

00:41:31.540 you share, then we want you to know we'll kill you.

00:41:35.720 And he would get up and still tell people how much God loves them.

00:41:39.880 And I remember one time there's a guy that shows up to where my dad's preaching and he

00:41:44.640 has a machete and he walks from the back to the front.

00:41:46.960 And my dad just starts feeling compelled to talk about forgiveness.

00:41:52.300 And by the time he gets to the front, he says, Mr. Teepo, I want you to, I want to ask for

00:41:57.980 your forgiveness because I was sent here to kill you.

00:42:00.520 Wow.

00:42:00.900 I want you to ask if you would forgive me.

00:42:03.640 And two times in my young life overseas, I got to see my mom say to my dad, we only have

00:42:12.700 a couple of dollars left.

00:42:13.820 And my dad says, it's okay, give it away.

00:42:18.140 And they give it away.

00:42:19.500 And both times we had neighbors that felt compelled, didn't know anything, but both times come over,

00:42:26.640 knock on the door and say, hey, we don't know why.

00:42:28.320 We just felt like we were compelled to bring you guys dinner tonight.

00:42:32.180 And as my wife says, it's just a God wink moment.

00:42:35.740 And you'll be able to see that.

00:42:37.340 So your parents were willing to live on the edge.

00:42:39.780 They were willing to live out that faith in a way that I've never had to.

00:42:45.200 I never have.

00:42:46.660 They've done it with such courage and conviction that it's why they're such heroes to me.

00:42:52.600 It's so grateful.

00:42:54.780 All right.

00:42:57.820 So they saw that you were good at baseball right away.

00:43:03.740 And you said you're getting puffed up about that pretty quick.

00:43:06.880 Very quick.

00:43:07.380 And their response...

00:43:07.960 It's insane how fast you become arrogant, especially as a kid.

00:43:11.520 Yeah, well, it's not...

00:43:12.080 It's instantly...

00:43:12.580 But it's also not surprising, right?

00:43:14.260 I mean, if you're good at something and you get a lot of attention from your teammates,

00:43:18.480 and that's obviously the natural place that you'd go.

00:43:21.640 And trying to figure out what to do about that so you keep the competitive edge without becoming narcissistic...

00:43:27.880 But I was also a terrible teammate.

00:43:30.100 Ah.

00:43:30.620 I was a terrible teammate because I thought winning was just about my performance and how good I could do for the team.

00:43:37.440 And I didn't realize it's also about building everyone up so it would be better as a team.

00:43:42.520 Yeah.

00:43:42.980 It was a frustration.

00:43:44.540 Why are...

00:43:45.040 You know, why do some of the kids care just about finding a four-leaf clover?

00:43:50.120 Don't understand the rules.

00:43:51.000 Why do you care about a snow cone?

00:43:52.860 And my parents really did a good job.

00:43:55.860 Well, Timmy, not everybody's competitive as you.

00:43:57.940 Not everybody cares as much about the game as you.

00:44:00.940 But one thing that I always, always, always share to me, that doesn't mean they're any less valuable.

00:44:07.240 It doesn't mean any of them are any less.

00:44:09.560 They just care about it a little less.

00:44:11.740 They're not less.

00:44:13.280 But that still leaves you with a terrible conundrum, right?

00:44:16.160 Because...

00:44:16.800 So let's walk through that too.

00:44:18.420 Because if you're trying to train to encourage your child to become a great athlete, let's say,

00:44:24.100 or great at anything for that matter, there is two things they have to learn.

00:44:27.960 And one is to develop their skills to the degree that that's possible.

00:44:31.260 But the next thing is to pull the team together and have them all work in the same direction, right?

00:44:37.480 And encourage them.

00:44:38.540 But then the situation you're in, and this is like a randomly aggregated sports team,

00:44:43.900 you're going to have half the people who actually don't care that much.

00:44:48.740 And some of it's because they have other interests.

00:44:51.160 And some of it is because...

00:44:52.080 Because their parents made them go play.

00:44:53.520 Yeah, sure, sure.

00:44:54.040 Or they just are out there.

00:44:54.900 Sure, or they have no discipline.

00:44:56.920 Like, there's real problems.

00:44:58.200 So, okay, so how did you learn to...

00:45:01.160 And then your parents are saying, well, those kids are equally valuable,

00:45:03.940 but then they're not focused on the game.

00:45:05.960 So that leaves you with a conceptual problem.

00:45:07.280 But their value doesn't come from how you do in a game.

00:45:09.880 Your value comes from being made in the image of God and the worth and the value all humanity has.

00:45:15.360 And so...

00:45:15.840 That's a hard thing to figure out when you're eight.

00:45:17.820 That's right.

00:45:18.380 You might be disappointed in how someone plays,

00:45:20.720 but you can't be disappointed in who somebody is.

00:45:23.100 There's a difference.

00:45:23.740 Right, right.

00:45:24.260 And it's always trying to keep that in mind.

00:45:26.340 Something that's so easy for me as a competitor to lose sight of.

00:45:30.640 Yeah.

00:45:31.040 Is the balance between those two.

00:45:32.360 Okay, so how did you bridge that gap?

00:45:37.600 And like, what did you have to learn?

00:45:39.360 And so you said, to begin with, you weren't a good teammate.

00:45:42.500 No.

00:45:42.780 And okay, so...

00:45:43.600 I don't believe so.

00:45:44.120 Okay, so what were you like when you weren't a good teammate?

00:45:47.840 I think because it was too much about me.

00:45:51.440 And I was thinking, well, how can I go win the game versus how can I be a better teammate and believe and uplift and encourage others,

00:45:59.280 even when I may be frustrated because they're not paying attention or they're doing something else.

00:46:04.880 But if I really want to give our team the best chance to win, then I need to build them up, not tear them down.

00:46:12.340 Yeah, definitely.

00:46:12.840 I need to be able to encourage them.

00:46:14.680 I need to try to put myself in their shoes.

00:46:16.860 I need to try to understand.

00:46:18.160 I need to find a way to actually pull us together versus just try a little bit harder.

00:46:22.640 Yeah, right, right.

00:46:24.040 Okay, and did you learn that?

00:46:26.180 I think I learned it, but I think just when you learn something doesn't mean you do it well.

00:46:33.680 And so it's constantly trying to practice that.

00:46:35.580 Yeah, well, it's a very difficult thing to get right.

00:46:37.200 And understand that and grow and improve.

00:46:38.380 And then still sometimes I feel like I would take steps back in it.

00:46:43.140 And as I grew up and playing so many different sports and leagues and championships and everything that there were, I think, highs and lows that came with that.

00:46:53.640 Because then I got to play on other LMS teams when I was young and we would compete for championships, like national championships in baseball and in football and some very competitive teams in basketball as well.

00:47:07.820 And so then everybody was all in.

00:47:11.180 It was win at all costs type, even from a very young age.

00:47:14.580 How old were you when you started the team sports?

00:47:17.620 Five.

00:47:18.380 Five, okay, okay.

00:47:19.540 So you're in there very early.

00:47:20.820 And how many different sports?

00:47:22.220 Three, baseball, basketball, football.

00:47:23.820 And were you equally good at all three?

00:47:26.920 When I was young, probably.

00:47:29.780 And then as I grew, probably got slightly better in football and baseball than in basketball.

00:47:37.240 Okay.

00:47:38.000 Okay.

00:47:38.640 And so, okay, so you're in a highly competitive environment.

00:47:41.760 When do you start to emerge as a team leader rather than as an individual star?

00:47:47.900 I think still at a pretty young age, but that's not because you're a good leader.

00:47:52.460 It's just because as a better player or a competent player, people would look to you.

00:47:59.500 Right.

00:47:59.700 And so I think at an early age, but I still don't believe that I led in a really good way many times.

00:48:05.540 But you said that skill developed across time.

00:48:08.580 What had to change about how you were interacting with your teammates to make you a better team player?

00:48:15.640 How did that skill develop?

00:48:17.380 And what role did your parents play, or your coaches for that matter, or your own reflections?

00:48:24.700 They played such a pivotal role in conversations with my mom and my dad about it.

00:48:31.960 So trying to learn from failure, talking through it afterwards with my dad, talking through it with my mom, trying to be patient, trying to be understanding.

00:48:41.620 Right, so they're paying attention to how you're doing on the field, and they're watching you, and they're listening to you afterwards, and you're strategizing together.

00:48:50.480 Yes.

00:48:52.380 And I would say one of the most special things is the whole time they're always reminding me, but it's not the end of the world.

00:49:01.720 It's not everything.

00:49:02.460 Yeah.

00:49:03.100 And there was always that balance that, to me, sometimes where I would fail, where I still fail, is when it becomes everything.

00:49:11.860 Yeah.

00:49:12.220 It's not, then it's not in its proper place.

00:49:14.600 Yeah, yeah.

00:49:15.440 Well, it's also a hard thing to get right, though, too, because you want to win, and so that means losing matters.

00:49:20.780 But then the thing about losing...

00:49:23.480 But what do you want to win at most in life?

00:49:26.300 Well, I would say one of the things you want to win at is you want to win at learning how to lose so that you don't stop, right?

00:49:34.700 I mean, the other real advantage to competitive sports is losing, because you lose, say, roughly half the time.

00:49:43.260 Okay, and you might say, well, why do you need the experience of losing?

00:49:47.020 Why can't everybody just win all the time?

00:49:49.460 And the first answer to that is you don't win all the time in life.

00:49:53.420 That's right.

00:49:53.720 Like, you're going to get set back a lot.

00:49:56.120 And so one of the things you have to learn, maybe the most important thing, possibly, is how to be resilient and grateful and upward striving in the face of failure.

00:50:06.480 Yeah.

00:50:06.820 Right?

00:50:07.220 And so...

00:50:07.960 How to deal with it.

00:50:09.160 And at the most...

00:50:10.600 That's why the competition should be heightened, too, because you want to learn how to lose gracefully and in a resilient manner

00:50:17.920 when the stakes are super high.

00:50:20.380 Yeah.

00:50:20.740 Right?

00:50:21.120 Because then you're tough.

00:50:22.460 And so that's a great victory.

00:50:24.240 And it's one of your greatest motivators.

00:50:26.700 Those scars from losses are also some of the things that motivate you the most.

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00:51:31.760 So when I look back on my career, especially in college, like it's hard for me.

00:51:39.640 So for example, we had 12 rivalry games in my four years at Florida.

00:51:43.940 We went 11 and one.

00:51:45.500 I think about that one.

00:51:47.520 Define a rivalry game.

00:51:48.600 So three biggest rivalries for us is Florida versus Georgia, Florida versus Tennessee, and Florida versus another team in the state, Florida State.

00:51:57.740 I hate even saying their name.

00:51:58.940 Right.

00:51:59.400 So these are high stakes games on a reputational level.

00:52:02.160 Oh, yeah.

00:52:02.340 And your fans have a lot at stake.

00:52:04.240 Yes.

00:52:06.160 And we went 11 and one in those games.

00:52:08.480 And I think about the one more than I think about the 11 combined.

00:52:13.760 And because it makes a mark and it gave such a weight to me.

00:52:22.040 I was so hurt and sad, not just for me, but for my family and for my team and for my teammates, for my teammates' family.

00:52:29.720 Because it mattered that much.

00:52:34.900 And I think that scar can either cripple you or propel you.

00:52:39.880 It can cripple you by just sitting and saying, what a terrible loss.

00:52:43.700 Or it can propel you.

00:52:44.600 Say, I never want to go through this again.

00:52:46.900 What I'm representing, who I get to represent, my teammates, my care for them, my coaches, my family, all of it.

00:52:52.620 I never want to go through this again.

00:52:54.420 So now I'm going to double down on my work.

00:52:56.680 I'm going to do it and I'm going to do it and I'm going to do it again.

00:52:58.940 Because I don't want to go through this again.

00:53:01.060 I don't want my teammates to go through this again.

00:53:02.860 I don't want my family to look at me like that again with the sadness on their eyes.

00:53:06.700 Because they know that I'm hurting.

00:53:08.460 Like all of that can propel you if you let it, if you use it as fuel.

00:53:14.000 And one of the things I like to encourage young people is you either win or you learn.

00:53:20.180 In the story of Cain and Abel.

00:53:22.520 So Cain makes sacrifices to God and they're rejected.

00:53:26.980 And he gets angry in consequence.

00:53:30.660 And he goes to God to complain about the structure of the world.

00:53:35.760 And God says to him, you've got nothing to complain about.

00:53:39.940 If you did well, you'd be accepted.

00:53:42.660 And you think that you're bitter because you lost.

00:53:45.900 But you're bitter because you lost.

00:53:48.480 And you invited the spirit of resentment and bitterness to inhabit your heart.

00:53:53.080 But that's why.

00:53:54.240 You didn't learn.

00:53:55.860 You didn't rectify your behavior.

00:53:57.920 You didn't change in the face of your loss.

00:54:00.820 You decided you'd get bitter.

00:54:02.860 Exactly.

00:54:03.140 And improve.

00:54:03.620 Now, you did that famous speech.

00:54:05.600 I presume that was in the aftermath of one of these rivalries.

00:54:10.520 It wasn't a rivalry game.

00:54:12.120 Oh, it wasn't a rivalry.

00:54:12.840 No, but it was a shocking loss.

00:54:16.620 That was my junior year at the University of Florida.

00:54:19.220 And we lost to Ole Miss, a team that has so much respect for them.

00:54:23.800 But we just shouldn't have lost to them.

00:54:25.940 But I promise you one thing.

00:54:27.480 A lot of good will come out of this.

00:54:29.340 You have never seen any player in the entire country play as hard as I will play the rest of the season.

00:54:34.220 And you never see someone push the rest of the team as hard as I will push everybody the rest of the season.

00:54:38.380 And you never see a team play harder than we will the rest of the season.

00:54:42.480 God bless.

00:54:43.780 After the game, I felt such shame and disappointment.

00:54:50.500 Not because we lost the game, Dr. Peterson, but because I knew it was my fault.

00:54:57.020 It was my fault as a leader.

00:54:59.920 It was my fault as a captain.

00:55:03.240 It was my fault in the way I played, in the focus.

00:55:07.380 What do you think you did wrong?

00:55:09.260 Or what did you think you did wrong?

00:55:11.620 I think that, you know, we throw around phrases like you're all in or being locked in or focused or all these things.

00:55:20.000 And I think that there was a tiny bit, just a tiny bit, that I thought today we could just go through the motions a little bit.

00:55:27.260 Oh, yes.

00:55:27.660 You had a little bit of contempt for your opponents.

00:55:30.720 Rather than being all in.

00:55:32.380 And the whole time we thought, well, we'll still win.

00:55:35.340 We'll still win.

00:55:36.120 You know, we were behind and we come from behind.

00:55:38.560 And we're down a touchdown.

00:55:41.680 But it's like, it's okay.

00:55:42.360 We're still good.

00:55:42.880 And we drive down the field.

00:55:43.960 We score a touchdown.

00:55:45.180 And then supposed to kick the extra point and tie the game.

00:55:48.440 They block the extra point.

00:55:50.000 But then our defense goes out there and does an unbelievable job.

00:55:52.720 Gets a three and out.

00:55:53.540 We get the ball back.

00:55:54.560 And we have a chance to score and win the game.

00:55:56.640 And it's a fourth and one.

00:55:58.460 And we call 96 Q Mickey, which is a Q power play.

00:56:03.780 It's a, I carry the ball.

00:56:05.480 It's downhill running.

00:56:07.040 And very few times, it would be like our identity play.

00:56:11.340 Very few times that I can remember.

00:56:14.300 I'm sure there's some times we got stopped on it.

00:56:16.180 But very few in four years.

00:56:18.580 Very few.

00:56:19.120 If there was, I mean, if there was one play, you said, we are getting this.

00:56:24.260 It's, I'm running behind some of our best offensive linemen, the Pounceys and some amazing guys.

00:56:29.280 And I'm running right behind them.

00:56:30.480 And we're like, we get this.

00:56:31.920 This is what we do.

00:56:33.000 Right.

00:56:33.220 Like, this is what we train for.

00:56:34.580 And I get stopped.

00:56:37.400 And we lose.

00:56:40.040 And just the disappointment, the shame.

00:56:42.980 And it's not just because we lose.

00:56:44.740 It's how we love.

00:56:45.660 Right, right, right.

00:56:46.220 And knowing that I should have done something different.

00:56:49.400 I could have done something different.

00:56:51.180 I just wasn't as focused or willing to as I should have been.

00:56:54.180 Right.

00:56:54.340 So that, is that a pride error?

00:56:56.200 Is that, because you said that.

00:56:57.580 I think it's a pride.

00:56:58.720 I think it's a lackadaisical.

00:57:00.180 I think it's a taking it for granted.

00:57:04.760 Yeah, yeah.

00:57:05.260 And after the game, I'm sitting in the locker for a while, probably over an hour.

00:57:10.720 And I have to go do the press conference, talk to the media.

00:57:14.220 And I just don't know what to say.

00:57:16.740 I just, I know that what I did was wrong.

00:57:20.360 I just really believe that.

00:57:21.540 Right.

00:57:21.760 Yeah.

00:57:22.000 Well, I watched the speech.

00:57:23.420 And, you know, you lay out the diagnosis, which is like a form of confession.

00:57:28.720 And then you describe your faults, which is the extension of the confession.

00:57:33.700 And then you proclaim your conviction that you will make better sacrifices and do better

00:57:40.740 in the future.

00:57:41.640 Obviously, that struck a chord with people.

00:57:43.580 But I think the reason for that is that it ties in with many of the things that we've

00:57:48.740 discussed.

00:57:49.320 I mean, one of the things you just pointed out that's crucially important is that you

00:57:53.200 can take these negative emotions that are associated with loss that could be crushing and that

00:57:59.380 are viewed by people who are anti-competitive as necessarily crushing.

00:58:02.620 You can take shame and guilt and disappointment and you can, and fear even, and you can transmute

00:58:10.120 those into motivational forces that can make you work harder in the future.

00:58:14.860 So, you know, when Christ is tempted by Peter, I think it's Peter, who he, and he says to him,

00:58:23.740 get thee behind me, Satan, and Peter, I believe it's Peter, has put forward a bunch of reasons that

00:58:30.980 Christ might lose his faith, for example, given the terrible obstacles that are in his path.

00:58:36.180 And the reason that I think that Christ says that, it's a very specific statement, which is that you

00:58:42.260 can take things that could stop you, and that would be all the negative emotions.

00:58:47.460 You can take those, and if you put them behind you, then they push you forward instead of being in

00:58:52.120 front of you, frightening you. And we know this to some degree from animal experiments. So here's

00:58:57.040 an example. It's a very basic example. So imagine you have a hungry rat, and so he's down to three

00:59:05.940 quarters of his body weight, so he's pretty motivated to work for food, typical situation with laboratory

00:59:11.180 rats. And you teach this rat how to run down a little runway to get some food, so he knows the food

00:59:17.540 is there. And then you can clock how fast he'll run if you open the little gate, and he's hungry,

00:59:23.080 and he can run. So now he's motivated by the desire to attain the goal, right? So that's kind of like a

00:59:27.520 competitive motivation. So then you can clock how fast he'll run. But then imagine that you do have

00:59:33.080 the same rat in the same situation, and when he's preparing to run down to get the cheese,

00:59:38.020 you pipe a little bit of cat odor into the air. And rats, they hate cats. Like from birth, it's innate.

00:59:47.300 They're terrified of cats. They'll do anything to stay away from a cat. And so now the rat smells a

00:59:54.100 cat, and he's hungry, and he runs down that runway a hell of a lot faster. And it's because now the

00:59:59.200 negative emotion that could stop him is motivating him to move ahead. And so this is another thing. So

01:00:04.400 you want to be resilient in the face of loss, and you have to learn that repeatedly by losing.

01:00:10.220 And you have to be socialized so you can do that with grace and not lose faith. But more than that,

01:00:17.620 you have to learn to take that shame and guilt and so forth and turn it into resolve. And I don't

01:00:22.780 think you can do that without competition and loss. And I don't think you can do it without

01:00:27.200 intense competition and loss that matters. And then you can see it. All you have to do is think

01:00:33.640 this through, as far as I'm concerned, is that, you know, you're going to face situations in your life

01:00:38.600 outside the playing field where your competitors are getting the best at you in your business, or

01:00:44.140 you're facing a terrible illness, or some bloody, awful, undeserved catastrophe comes your way

01:00:50.400 on the family side. And it takes you out. And if you get desperate, and you can't tolerate negative

01:00:57.080 emotion, then you're going to get angry and bitter, and you're going to collapse. And alternatively,

01:01:02.040 you could have learned to deal with defeat, like really deal with it, to be grateful for it even,

01:01:08.280 and to consider it an opportunity.

01:01:10.380 Well, I also believe that's even Scripture, too. Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you

01:01:15.320 encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance, and let endurance

01:01:19.360 have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. So we also get to

01:01:24.740 consider it joy when we go through trials, knowing that it's building, it's doing, it's working,

01:01:29.600 God's working in us and through us, that it's not just a negative, it is a growing. Like we also

01:01:35.360 think about when you want to get stronger, what do you do? You literally tear down your muscles and

01:01:39.940 they come back stronger. There is also such a fear for us about discomfort. We want to be

01:01:47.980 comfortable. We want to find areas of comfortable. I want to work hard enough so we can have a retirement

01:01:52.760 so that one day we can be comfortable, right? Yeah, yeah. Terrible goal, by the way. Terrible goal.

01:01:57.820 It really is.

01:01:58.520 It just kills people. Because we seek comfort so much. Well, that's what the story of Abraham is

01:02:03.640 about, too, because he has comfort to begin with. And we have to fight that. God says outside,

01:02:08.340 go outside the zone of comfort continually and voluntarily. Because when we seek comfort,

01:02:12.720 I really believe that we miss so much of other purpose and meaning and significance when we just

01:02:19.380 seek comfort. Yeah, well, there's a... And growth. There's a very deep analogy between seeking

01:02:25.180 comfort and seeking unconsciousness and death. I'll give you an example of that. So, in the story

01:02:30.080 of Jonah, right? So, God comes to Jonah and tells him that he has to speak words of redemption to his

01:02:38.320 enemies in a very dangerous way, which would be kind of what your dad was doing, for example. And

01:02:43.240 Jonah, being a sensible person, thinks that sounds like not a very good idea at all. And he makes

01:02:50.980 tracks in the opposite direction, right? And so, he hops on a boat and heads for a city that's as far

01:02:56.280 away from his enemies that he's supposed to talk to as possible. But the first thing he does on the

01:03:01.240 boat is fall asleep. And there's a meaning of that, you know? And the meaning is that if you shrink away

01:03:08.380 from your calling or your conscience, then really what happens is that you're seeking a form of

01:03:15.500 unconsciousness, which is... Like, you're comfortable when you're asleep, but you're not there, right? And

01:03:21.660 then you might say, well, I only want to be awake during periods of joy. I only want to experience

01:03:26.960 happiness. And you can understand that, but then there's no developmental impetus in happiness, right?

01:03:34.440 It's... Developmental impetus is only in challenge and in adventure. And so... And, you know, you said we

01:03:40.880 seek comfort, but it's weird. We think we seek comfort, but if you give people nothing but

01:03:47.740 comfort... This was Dostoevsky's great observation in Notes from Underground. He said, if you gave

01:03:52.960 people nothing but comfort, like Abraham, the first thing they would do is get angry and bored about

01:03:58.060 their comfort. That's right. They will not be satisfied. Not at all. No, and they'll break it.

01:04:01.380 Yes. And they'll seek false adventure because people aren't built for comfort. Yeah. They're built for

01:04:05.740 challenge. And then there's one more observation about that. You know, the oldest story we have,

01:04:11.160 likely, is the dragon fight story. It's really old. Thousands of years. And so the idea is a quest

01:04:17.920 into the unknown to find the dragon that guards the treasure, the voluntary confrontation with the

01:04:24.440 dragon, and then the receipt of the treasure. And so there's a core idea there, which is that

01:04:31.680 there are treasures, but the treasures are guarded, and they're guarded by something terrible.

01:04:37.000 And so you could say, well, wherever there's a treasure, there's going to be a dragon.

01:04:42.940 But you can reverse that equally, and you can say, wherever there's a dragon, there's going to be

01:04:48.920 a treasure. And so now you walk through your life, and some horrible dragon emerges, like you have an

01:04:54.720 old child, for example, or something arbitrary and terrible. And you could be crushed by that and get

01:04:59.980 bitter and resentful and no bloody wonder. But you could also think, okay, dragon, there's got to be

01:05:06.920 a treasure around here somewhere. And that gives you a completely different stance on the problem,

01:05:11.440 which is the stance of a contender. It's like, oh, we have a major league challenge here. And that

01:05:17.540 could force us to develop. We know too, you know, there's psychophysiological studies that show this.

01:05:23.320 It's very, very cool. So imagine you take two groups of people, right, random assignation to

01:05:28.860 groups. So there's no difference between the groups. And one group you impose a challenge on

01:05:33.920 involuntarily. They have to do it, okay? And the other group has a choice, and they choose to do it.

01:05:39.900 Then you measure their physiological responses and their emotions. They're completely different in

01:05:45.660 the two groups. The group that has to do it in an obligatory way, they turn into prey animals,

01:05:52.460 and they produce a lot of stress hormones. So now they're frozen and they have the spirit of a

01:05:57.760 prey animal. But the people who do it voluntarily, they're, well, they're now a lot more like predators.

01:06:04.900 They're a lot more like, it's voluntary and it's challenging. And so the whole pattern of

01:06:11.180 activation changes, and this cascades all the way down to the genetic level. So if you take on a

01:06:18.660 confrontation voluntarily, you turn on genes that wouldn't otherwise be turned on, and they code

01:06:25.140 new proteins and build you really from the cells upward into a whole different creature. So this

01:06:30.780 attitude towards challenge, which is developed if you are confronting competition, that attitude

01:06:38.160 towards challenge determines even the way you develop physically, much less spiritually and emotionally.

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01:07:42.160 I love that so much because it reminds me of one thing I love to say is we get the choice of living

01:07:49.340 a have to or a get to life. Yeah, right. Like even for sports that you could see certain teammates,

01:07:56.760 people I play with or against, their joy might be taken at times because they would feel like,

01:08:02.440 man, I have to go do this. Obligation. I have to get up early. And you could see burnout versus those

01:08:06.940 that man, their mentality, even though it could get hard and disappointing and frustrating and

01:08:11.680 there's trials and tribulations, but I get to do this. There's a difference. And, you know,

01:08:17.700 in this faith journey, it's not a have to, it's a get to. And it totally changes the mindset. It

01:08:25.640 changes the joy in it. The difference between, man, I have to go do this every day or I get to go do

01:08:30.900 this. Yeah, right. Well, that's the difference between gratitude and resentment, right? And so

01:08:35.320 you could think, well, pride is a terrible sin. It's a terrible missing of the mark and it makes

01:08:40.640 people arrogant and self-centered and bitter and incapable of learning. So that's all pride. And

01:08:50.020 the religious practice that's the antithesis of that is humility. And that's something like,

01:08:55.960 no matter where I am and what I'm doing, I have a lot more to learn and I'm grateful for the

01:09:01.640 experience to learn. And that might even be when I'm radically corrected and fail, right? I want to

01:09:08.360 be grateful for that because it's an opportunity. And that's something you have to practice. And then

01:09:12.840 with regards to gratitude, it's the same thing. It's like, I have this difficult enterprise in front

01:09:21.980 of me and I can regard that as an impediment and a rebuke, or I could say, well, I'm going to look

01:09:30.300 for the way in which this is a remarkable opportunity and I'm going to be grateful for that,

01:09:35.280 right? So that's a practice that makes you immune to resentment. So to be immune to pride and resentment,

01:09:42.360 that's the target of much genuine religious practice so that you continue to learn and so that

01:09:49.860 you don't become bitter. And then that seems to produce this transformation that we already

01:09:54.680 described, which is, you know, it makes itself manifest psychologically, but it cascades all

01:09:59.800 the way down to the cellular level. And that is a matter of attitude. And so you said your parents

01:10:05.040 were very good at that and that they had you. Do you remember the scripture verses that they

01:10:09.700 concentrated on having you? Oh, so many. The one I just mentioned, the greatest of mine could be a

01:10:14.680 servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled. Whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

01:10:18.080 That was one of the first verses I had to memorize, but then we started going through

01:10:23.160 a lot of Proverbs that my dad really believes in Proverbs and he would press it into us to the

01:10:34.960 extent I'm so grateful. Now randomly I'll be reading the Bible or I'll be with teammates or

01:10:40.440 friends and we'll be looking at it and I'll be like, I didn't memorize this. And all of a sudden,

01:10:44.440 because I had to memorize it to play games, even though I didn't want to, I had to to play and I

01:10:49.420 would be willing to do whatever it took to play. And now I'll be like, wait a second, I memorized

01:10:53.680 this. Like it just, you know, the other day we were reading in Proverbs five or six and I'm sitting

01:11:00.880 there and I'm like, wait, I know so much of this because I had to memorize it. Like, you know,

01:11:04.680 go to the end, O slugger, observe her ways and be wise, which having no chief officer or ruler

01:11:08.260 prepares her food in the summer and gathers her provision in the harvest. How long will you lie down,

01:11:12.360 O slugger? A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding hands to rest and your poverty

01:11:15.460 will come in like a vagabond and your need like an armed man. And you can keep going.

01:11:18.760 Say that slowly. Say that slowly. Which part of it? The whole thing.

01:11:24.160 Let's see. Go to the end, O slugger, observe her ways and be wise, which having no chief officer or

01:11:29.580 ruler prepares her food in the summer and gathers her provision in the harvest. How long will you lie

01:11:34.120 down, O slugger? A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding hands to rest and your poverty

01:11:38.420 will come in like a vagabond or need like an armed man. A worthless person, a wicked man is one who

01:11:43.160 walks with a false mouth, who winks with his eyes, who signals his feet, who with perversity in his

01:11:46.860 heart devises evil continually and one who spreads strife. Therefore, his calamity will come suddenly,

01:11:51.860 instantly, and there will be no healing. There are six things that the Lord hates, yes, seven are

01:11:56.720 abomination to him. Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked

01:12:02.160 plans, feet that will unrapidly to evil, a false witness who utters lies.

01:12:05.380 Um, okay, so, so that's a very, that's a very interesting.

01:12:09.540 I say that it's not because I wanted to memorize that because my parents kept putting that in my

01:12:14.660 head over and over and over again. So that specifically, you know, in this Proverbs, because

01:12:20.540 my dad didn't want us to be lazy. Go to the aunt, O slugger, observe her ways and be wise. And then you

01:12:25.580 get to closer to the end of the chapter and you're saying, man, these are the things that the Lord hates,

01:12:29.880 you know? And so, um, there was such a plan, um, my parents in, in putting these thoughts in our head,

01:12:36.720 um, so that you would meditate on them, even though we didn't want to. Yeah. And so then, but eventually

01:12:42.240 when it's in your head and it's in your heart, God can bring it to your memory. And yeah, well,

01:12:46.260 that's what I'm, okay. So I'm curious about two things there. So first of all, that's a very telling

01:12:50.880 passage because, so there's this, there's this subplot in the old Testament where the Israelites,

01:12:58.180 they escape their slavery and they escape the Pharaoh who's the tyrant. So now they're a free

01:13:03.100 people, right? And they're trying to organize themselves. And so they organize themselves in a

01:13:08.340 responsible hierarchy. This is the, um, following the suggestion of Jethro, who's Moses' father-in-law.

01:13:16.000 So the Israelites are trying to figure out what they do if they're not ruled by a tyrant.

01:13:20.080 And Jethro says, well, you divide yourself into groups of 10, you elect a representative,

01:13:25.260 you have the 10, erect another representative, elect another representative, all the way up to

01:13:29.800 the 10,000s. And so he describes a hierarchy of responsibility as the alternative to tyranny and

01:13:37.480 slavery, right? And so, but what that means is that in that hierarchy, everybody has to act

01:13:43.080 responsibly and then you don't need a king. And so this proverb passage that you just described

01:13:49.420 zeroes in on that and says that if everyone pulls their weight voluntarily, like the ant and isn't

01:13:59.020 a sluggard and isn't lazy and waiting for someone else to do it, then there's no need for a tyrant and

01:14:05.180 no one's a slave. But more than that, in that responsibility is tremendous meaning and opportunity.

01:14:11.400 So you get to have your cake and eat it too. You don't need a tyrant. You don't need to be a slave,

01:14:16.200 but your life has meaning now because you're actually pulling a weight that's worthy of your

01:14:21.320 efforts, right? So that's beautifully put. So it's a very important lesson, but now you were required

01:14:27.960 to memorize that. And so, and you said even to some degree against your intrinsic desires at that point.

01:14:36.500 Yeah, we don't want to do that all the time. I just wanted to go play.

01:14:39.340 What do you think, what do you think having memorized those things did for you? Because

01:14:44.560 you didn't necessarily understand what they meant to begin with. Like some, some of them,

01:14:49.480 I think kids understand a lot more sometimes than we give them credit for. You would know this better

01:14:53.520 than anyone, but I feel like there's parts of you taken, but some of it, you don't take all of it,

01:14:57.780 right? Yeah. You're, you're. So it had some utility right away. Absolutely. Absolutely. You know,

01:15:02.840 if I treat someone a certain way that is wrong or mean or unkind, you know, that is, it's bad.

01:15:10.520 I missed the mark on it. Like you don't like kids know the difference between right and wrong in a

01:15:16.160 lot of ways that I think we have to sometimes feel like we teach them, but they know that.

01:15:19.840 Yeah. Yeah. You know that bullying is, is wrong. Yeah. Like at a very young age, you know,

01:15:24.380 you know, being mean, you know, pushing someone is wrong. But then there's other things that

01:15:30.000 constantly, um, work through or think about, or in meditation, you would think it would one day

01:15:37.540 click. But that was one of my parents' hopes is that there would be the scripture put in your head

01:15:43.600 and put in your heart, whether you wanted to or not, it was irrelevant. You were going to memorize it.

01:15:49.240 If you wanted to play on the weekend. How much did you memorize?

01:15:51.100 Uh, we would have to memorize, um, before most games for a long time. And, um, sometimes we did

01:15:58.640 not always like it. We did not always want to, uh, but it really made an impact to where now I'll be

01:16:05.380 reading and I'll be like, Ooh, I remember that. I remember I had to memorize that. I'm so grateful

01:16:09.640 to my parents. So, so like beyond grateful. Cause I'm like, sometimes those, uh,

01:16:16.320 different scripture will pop in my heart. I would be playing a game and let another praise you and

01:16:23.920 not your own mouth, a stranger and not your lips. Oh my gosh. You know, and there would be so good

01:16:28.920 one. Yeah. That's a good one. And there would be so much of scripture that would pop in my head and

01:16:33.000 my heart, not is less so after wins, even more so after losses. And, um, and I could, and also so

01:16:42.080 many times I would also hear my mom's voice in my head because my mom would also put scripture to

01:16:47.640 tune and sing to us as we'd go to sleep. Right. Right. So that's a real aid to memory.

01:16:52.580 It's a aid to my mom would always say what's put, what's put in tune or, um, what's put in tune is

01:16:58.840 remembered long or something. You know, what's put in song is remembered long. A lot of the Bible was

01:17:02.440 poetry set to music for that reason. Much more memorable that way. Yeah. I mean, one of the things I

01:17:08.140 realized about my kids, you know, I didn't take them to church when they were a kid, when they

01:17:12.380 were kids. And like, we had a very philosophically structured household, let's say, and they learned

01:17:18.280 to aim up, but what they didn't get this memory training that you just described, and they don't

01:17:23.920 know the biblical stories as well as they should have. And so there's some real advantage to that

01:17:28.680 repetition that's effortful because it provides you, it gives you these things at hand. It gives you

01:17:35.280 something to focus and think about in times of trouble. It's a tool. Yeah. It's a tool in that

01:17:39.860 moment. And it's a truth in that moment that I can rely on. It's, I get to remember my worth wasn't

01:17:46.680 dependent on this game. My value is not dependent on this game that in the highs, when everybody is

01:17:51.940 saying, oh, congratulations, Timmy, that doesn't change my worth. But in the lows, when everybody

01:17:56.820 is saying, Tebow, you suck. Yeah. It also doesn't change my worth. Yeah. Like my identity.

01:18:03.080 That's right. So your eyes are set on something above the game.

01:18:05.580 Trying, trying, trying to, trying to, you know, which is very hard. Yeah. I remember at the University

01:18:12.840 of Florida, it started out, we were doing really well my freshman year. I was getting to play. We

01:18:18.280 were being successful. And one of my favorite parts was the gator walk. You would drive the bus up there

01:18:24.000 and you'd get out and you'd walk and there'd be thousands of fans cheering for you. And as you'd walk

01:18:27.800 through, it's awesome way to get ready for a game. Like all these people are going crazy as you walk into the

01:18:31.740 stadium. But one of the things that started to happen to me was I would have all of these thoughts.

01:18:41.340 I would even say like voices, like walking in, I would hear, I'd see people wearing my jersey

01:18:48.900 and I would have these thoughts of arrogance, like, man, like you are somebody now. Yeah. Right.

01:18:54.880 And then you'd keep walking and a mom or dad would say, hey, Timmy, just want you to know you're our son's

01:19:01.460 role model. Right. Or you're our daughter's role model. And then I would have these other voices,

01:19:06.380 these other thoughts and really a shame of no, not if you knew me on my worst day, I wouldn't be their

01:19:13.700 role model. Not if you knew my worst words, my worst actions, my worst thoughts, I wouldn't be their role model.

01:19:18.560 That's the shadow side of that arrogance. Yes, it is. You pay on both sides, right? You get self

01:19:22.760 aggrandized, but you're brought low at the same time. That's right. Right. Because there's a,

01:19:26.920 you can see where you're not what you're being worshiped for. And that's shameful.

01:19:31.900 And how much you've missed the mark. Yeah, yeah. And then you'd have thoughts of other teams and anger

01:19:35.980 and pride. And then there always be near the end, always the cameras as you'd walk into a stadium,

01:19:40.600 right? And even though they're not supposed to be there, and they'd ask you these macro questions.

01:19:46.180 Are you ready for the day? Are you ready for the world? Whatever, you know, these big,

01:19:49.960 and you would think, man, in the next three hours, I'm going to be viewed and evaluated by most of

01:19:56.800 the country. And it'll either be way too many people praising me for something I don't deserve

01:20:02.840 or a whole lot of criticism. And you would have feeling like I'm not enough. I'm not prepared for

01:20:09.480 that. I don't want to handle nor do I like that. And I started with the old iPod thing back in the

01:20:19.860 day. And I started putting on a song every time I'd get off the bus by a group called Casting

01:20:24.860 Crowns. It's a song called The Voice of Truth. And as I would get ready to walk through the Gator

01:20:30.560 Walk, I would hit play on The Voice of Truth. And it would say to the extent of The Voice of Truth

01:20:36.600 tells me a different story. The Voice of Truth says, do not be afraid. The Voice of Truth says,

01:20:42.260 this is for my glory. Out of all the voices calling out to me, I will choose to listen and believe the

01:20:47.800 Voice of Truth. The Voice of Truth that I'm not defined by this game, good or bad. The Voice of

01:20:53.600 Truth that I'm not defined by my sin. I'm not defined by my scars. I'm defined by His scars.

01:20:59.140 The Voice of Truth says, you know, this is just a game. You can compete. The Voice of Truth says,

01:21:06.720 you know, all of these things. And I'll make a list of God's promises and the truth so that when all of

01:21:11.960 these things are calling out to me, and I'll fail at a lot of them, I get to go back and remember the

01:21:16.840 Voice of Truth. That I'm not defined by this game. That I was created in love, by love, and for love.

01:21:21.520 That God has a purpose and a plan. That's not just something we put on bumper stickers as a catchphrase,

01:21:26.000 but that I'm fearfully and wonderfully made. And you would go over all of these truths so you could

01:21:30.120 remember that this doesn't get to define me. It's not earned or right or the ability to define me.

01:21:36.200 King Jesus did that on the cross. That's what I'm defined. That's where I get to listen to the

01:21:42.020 Voice of Truth. And it's so hard in life because we let so many things define us. And I feel like,

01:21:50.080 for me, I probably do that more than most because I'm naturally a people pleaser.

01:21:53.620 I am a baby of five. I always wanted my parents and my siblings to like me. I want people to like

01:22:00.300 me. I would always be so like, my dad, he's just this courage. I'd be like, it's crazy. But so many

01:22:06.600 people disliked him for it. And I remember early on at Florida, I was getting criticized by a lot of

01:22:13.280 people. At least it was a lot to me. And I was reading a book, a lot about Winston Churchill. And he

01:22:19.700 had a quote in there where he said, if you have enemies, good. It means you stood for something at

01:22:25.300 least once in your life. And I thought, what? How could it be good to have enemies? Like that

01:22:29.820 didn't make sense to me. But you see, one of the things he understood in that moment was sometimes

01:22:35.200 other people might not get it at the moment. They might not. But he cared more about doing what was

01:22:41.940 right and living by his convictions and standing for what he believed was right than giving in so that

01:22:47.240 he would be liked. And now you look at how people talk or the reverence or the honor they talk about

01:22:52.220 Winston Churchill. And that was so convicting and multiple things were convicting to me

01:22:57.520 where it was trying to make the choice. Okay, am I going to choose? Am I going to strive to choose

01:23:03.500 my convictions or strive to choose what's right over strive to be liked? And it's still something I

01:23:09.880 battle, but it's, I work on daily because I need to, because I know that's an area where I fall short.

01:23:16.140 Mm-hmm. I think we're going to draw this part of the conversation to a close. Although there's

01:23:23.420 many other things I would like to talk to you about for the broad public. I think what we're

01:23:28.460 going to do for everybody who's watching and listening is on the Daily Wire side, I would like

01:23:32.940 to talk to you about the applications of what you've learned to the building of this charitable

01:23:38.620 organization and how you manage your team and what you've accomplished and what your goals are.

01:23:43.940 And so we can easily flesh out a half an hour discussion with that. But I think that made a

01:23:49.100 nice piece and that was a very good ending. So this is a good time to bring this to a close. And so

01:23:54.000 for all of you watching and listening, give some thought to joining us on the Daily Wire side.

01:23:59.220 There'll be a practical evaluation, although much of this was practical, with regards to how you set up

01:24:06.180 an organization so that you can do far more than you could do alone. And how you pick people and how

01:24:12.660 you evaluate them and how you encourage them and what your goals should be. Tim has put together a

01:24:18.720 stellar organization that's helping people all over the world. And that's a very complicated thing to

01:24:22.900 do, help people. And especially to do that without also falling into the pit of self-aggrandizement

01:24:29.320 with all that false display or all that display of false charity. And so we'll just delve into that

01:24:36.260 for half an hour. Join us on the Daily Wire side. Thank you very much. That went by like

01:24:41.180 instantly. And I appreciate it. I think it was an extremely useful discussion on the relationship

01:24:46.280 between competition and attitude and resilience, which is something that everybody needs to hear

01:24:52.460 in this world where competitiveness and masculinity for that matter is demonized to a degree that's

01:24:59.200 almost incomprehensible. Extremely demoralizing for young men and for women as well. So it's very

01:25:05.740 useful to have sorted that out. Great to meet you. Appreciate you, my friend. Thank you.

01:25:09.520 You bet, man. Yeah. And thanks to the film crew here in Pensac... Where the hell are we?

01:25:14.440 Jacksonville. Jacksonville. Yeah, yeah. Jacksonville, Florida. I much appreciate you guys helping us out,

01:25:21.400 making sure we got this right. And shout out to Joy Hom, too, my producer, who's been,

01:25:27.180 you know, stellar at making sure that we can do these things and to the Daily Wire for the support

01:25:31.780 so that we can bring these discussions to everyone. Thanks again, sir. Thank you, brother. Yep.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - April 21, 2025

540. Former NFL Player on Masculinity ｜ Tim Tebow

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