The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

00:00:00.000 I'm very curious about how you see the relationship between the competitiveness that has characterized your athletic career and this calling to higher service.

00:00:11.680 To sum it up, it's to fight for people that can't fight for themselves, and competitiveness is not the problem. It's where you steer it.

00:00:19.280 So you saw a lot of people who were suffering, and you knew that that was wrong.

00:00:23.140 I see the boy laying on the cot. I see his legs. I see they're on backwards. And so I get a little bit emotional, but I hold it back.

00:00:29.720 And Sherwin is the name of the boy, looks at me and said, I've been told my whole life that I'm not impressive.

00:00:35.060 Let's go back. I don't understand how you developed your athletic ability in relation to team sports and were homeschooled. How did that come about?

00:00:43.360 Can I back it up even to my birth? There was issues with the entire pregnancy. The placenta wasn't properly attached.

00:00:50.440 She had amoeba dysentery. She went into a coma. The doctor who had finally helped my mom give birth, he looked at my parents and said,

00:00:57.520 I don't know how your baby boy is alive, and God's got a special plan for your life.

00:01:03.660 Do you know what happens when you hear that over and over and over again? You start to believe it.

00:01:08.380 So what did it mean to believe that when you were little?

00:01:20.440 I had the opportunity today to talk to one of the world's premier athletes, Tim Tebow, and we had a very interesting conversation.

00:01:33.940 And I would say the crux of the matter is the relationship between masculinity, masculine competitiveness, masculine striving for excellence, and virtue, all things considered.

00:01:48.080 Our culture is set up now in large part on the presupposition that competition and that masculine striving for dominance and excellence is in itself a form of patriarchal oppressiveness.

00:02:04.020 And that's wrong. And it's not only wrong, it's wrong in a deadly way because it demoralizes young men.

00:02:10.640 And when that happens, well, then young women don't have anybody to partner with.

00:02:14.900 And so that's just a complete bloody catastrophe.

00:02:17.520 And Tebow is a very interesting case because he's an excellent athlete and in multiple different athletic domains.

00:02:25.660 And he's extremely competitive and averse to failure.

00:02:30.400 But at the same time, he's a very good man.

00:02:32.880 And he's figured out how to take that competitive striving and that desire for excellence and that hatred of losing and to transmute it into a form of high-level motivation aimed at not only the good of winning, let's say, in local competitions like athletic competitions, but the aim of winning at the higher order purposes of life.

00:02:54.900 And so a lot of our conversation revolved around putting masculinity in its proper place so that everything beneficial about it can flourish at the psychological relationship and social levels.

00:03:12.260 And so this is a crucially important conversation.

00:03:14.520 And I think we got to the core of the matter.

00:03:16.980 Now, that was embedded in a broader framework because Tim started out as a stellar athlete and then a stellar team player, but he's expanded his endeavors into the business and philanthropic realm.

00:03:30.720 And so we were able to have an abstract discussion about the relationship between competitiveness, let's say, and virtue.

00:03:38.000 But we're able to ground that in something very solid, which is his transition from athlete to businessman and philanthropist.

00:03:46.480 And so, well, these are important issues to sort out.

00:03:50.280 And if you want to develop your clarity of mind in relationship to such things, and if you want to become a good, what would you say, a good motivator for your own purposes and a good father to your own sons and a good leader to the people who are around you, then these are issues that you have to be straight about.

00:04:10.180 And this discussion can help you figure out why you should do that and how you could go about it.

00:04:15.900 So join us for that.

00:04:18.620 So your team sent me a video detailing out the operations of your foundation, and I thought we might as well start by talking about that.

00:04:28.520 I was struck by its breadth.

00:04:31.000 And so I'm very curious about, well, I'd like to know more about the foundation.

00:04:37.320 I'd like to know where it's distributed, what it's doing, and also how you set it up and keep an eye on it.

00:04:44.760 So tell me about the foundation, Tim Tebow Foundation.

00:04:47.840 Well, I think I'd probably go back to the first time I was inspired that I really felt like I was called to start a foundation or be involved.

00:04:57.600 And I wouldn't even say I even knew it was a foundation, but that's when I was 15 years old.

00:05:01.680 And I was on a mission trip to the Philippines.

00:05:03.940 And as a country that I love very much, I was actually born there, lived the first five years of my life there, and then went back with my dad and a group of people to the Philippines.

00:05:14.760 And on this trip, we got to do a lot of amazing things.

00:05:17.560 But one of the islands I got to visit was a very remote island.

00:05:22.040 You know, the Philippines is made up of over 7,200 islands, and many of them are extremely remote.

00:05:26.460 And I got to go to an extremely remote island.

00:05:28.880 And on this island, we get to share our faith and encourage the people.

00:05:34.040 But one of the things that radically impacted my life was I had the privilege of meeting a boy who was born with his feet on backwards.

00:05:41.280 And because he was born this way, he was treated as less than insignificant and cursed.

00:05:46.160 And he was a throwaway to the people there.

00:05:49.320 And my heart broke for him.

00:05:51.500 And I knew he wasn't a throwaway to God.

00:05:54.700 But I just felt like God was pricking my heart saying, okay, then what are you going to do about it?

00:06:00.420 If you know he's not a throwaway to me, and you know he's not cursed, you know that he's actually fearfully and wonderfully made, you know that he's one of one, he's loved, what are you going to do about it?

00:06:11.940 And I didn't know, I didn't know what that meant.

00:06:15.620 I didn't know what that looked like in a practical.

00:06:17.320 I just knew going down that mountain that day and leaving that island that I was somehow supposed to fight for boys and girls, to fight for people that couldn't fight for themselves.

00:06:30.340 And I'm only, was it maybe finishing my sophomore year of high school, and I'm trying to figure that out.

00:06:35.680 What does that look like?

00:06:36.700 And I get through high school and college, and we were involved in different ministries and orphan care, and my dad's a missionary, and so I got to grow up on the mission field and seeing a lot of that.

00:06:47.720 But the first thing I did when I graduated from the University of Florida was start the foundation with the mission statement to bring faith, hope, and love to those needing a brighter day in their darkest hour of need.

00:06:59.500 And when I wrote that, all I did was think about that boy, where he was in his life, and what he needed to bring faith, hope, and love to someone in their darkest hour of need.

00:07:09.760 To sum it up, it's to fight for people that can't fight for themselves.

00:07:13.640 And when we presented this, and when we launched the foundation, there were some people that wanted to be supportive, like, oh, that's a good heart, thank you, good intentions.

00:07:21.340 But there were a lot of people that said, it's too broad.

00:07:25.360 You won't be successful.

00:07:27.280 You can't do all the things we were talking about because it started in orphan care, and then a hospital, and special needs, and wish-granting organization, and that's kind of how it started.

00:07:38.480 And so many people, I even remember at our first press conference, they say, this is our heart and our starting, and this is what we're calling the foundation.

00:07:45.200 This is our mission statement, and one of the first questions.

00:07:47.420 But don't you think it's too broad?

00:07:48.980 That was a strategy objection.

00:07:53.040 I think so, and my response to it was, this is what I feel like we're called to do, and every door that God opens that he wants us to run down, I don't want to say, oh, no, because we want to be successful, we're only going to go down this.

00:08:08.980 No, we want to get to as many hurting people as possible.

00:08:11.900 And one of the ways that I like to share it is I knew when I got to that island and I met that boy that I love sports.

00:08:21.260 I love the game.

00:08:22.500 I love baseball, basketball, and football.

00:08:24.200 I love competing.

00:08:25.580 I loved winning.

00:08:26.720 I hated losing even more.

00:08:28.400 I was nth degree competitive.

00:08:29.920 And I had the chance to be somewhat successful at sports and win some championships and even MVP sometimes.

00:08:39.720 And one of the things that I really felt like was pricked on my heart, and I don't even know, Dr. Peterson, if I could have explained it verbally then as much as it was just in my heart.

00:08:50.840 But now the way I'd explain it was I was chasing, trying to be my best, and every now and then being the best, and you could say chasing an MVP of most valuable player.

00:09:01.660 But God pricked my heart that day and said, I have a more important MVP for you to chase.

00:09:07.880 It's not the most valuable player.

00:09:10.320 It's the most vulnerable people because they're worth far more than some other MVP.

00:09:17.620 You know, there's a weird paradox in your story because, well, many of them, but I'm very curious about why this boy in particular.

00:09:27.120 Now, you know, so what you just said, there's a bunch of paradoxical elements to it because you're obviously very competitive.

00:09:34.420 You really like winning.

00:09:35.380 You said you hate losing even more.

00:09:37.320 Yes.

00:09:37.600 And that's actually an attitude that many people think is at odds with an attitude of compassion, for example, right?

00:09:44.040 Because there's a huge movement in our culture to demonize competitive sports because they're oppressive and aggressive.

00:09:52.500 And you were spectacularly successful as an athlete, and you describe yourself as very competitive.

00:09:58.340 And yet you also were highly motivated to start this foundation.

00:10:02.720 And the boy that pricked your conscience, like you said you were on your father's missionary ventures in many places.

00:10:11.460 And yet it was this particular boy, and you could think of him in a way as exactly the opposite of you because literally his feet were on backwards.

00:10:19.160 And I'm curious about why you think it was him in particular.

00:10:23.020 I mean, you were in the Philippines and other places, so you saw a lot of people who were suffering.

00:10:27.440 Like, why do you think it was that it was his existence per se that stood out for you?

00:10:33.540 And then the other thing I'm curious about in that regard is, you know, you said that as far as the people in his village were concerned, he was a throwaway.

00:10:41.580 And you knew that that was wrong.

00:10:43.460 And so the first question might be, why do you think that it was obvious to the people in the village that he was a throwaway, so to speak?

00:10:51.240 And why do you think that grated against you?

00:10:55.740 Like, what's the difference in perspective there?

00:10:57.800 So, well, that's a bunch of different questions.

00:11:00.020 They're great questions.

00:11:01.740 I would start with my opinion on probably why they believed he was cursed and less than this,

00:11:07.880 because that's what they had been told for a long time.

00:11:11.500 That's what they had believed.

00:11:13.460 That because he was born this way, he was cursed.

00:11:18.020 And it was a belief that he was less than.

00:11:22.440 And actually, to tell more of the story, when we got there and we gathered all the people to share with them, to share our faith,

00:11:29.320 it was my opportunity to share.

00:11:31.540 And I think it was probably around 1,200 people total in the whole village.

00:11:36.160 And I actually saw three boys leaving.

00:11:40.200 And you got to understand, this is weird because the Filipinos love Americans.

00:11:43.980 I mean, they were fighting to get as close to us as possible.

00:11:46.680 They're so excited.

00:11:47.760 They have visitors.

00:11:48.440 Many would say, tell us that we're the first visitors that they had ever seen in their entire life.

00:11:54.300 And so they're so excited.

00:11:55.600 And I see these three middle school age boys leaving.

00:11:58.800 And it just caught my eye.

00:12:00.500 Like, why?

00:12:01.680 People are, I mean, they're literally as close to us as possible as we're sharing.

00:12:06.100 And I finished and I just had it on my heart.

00:12:08.860 I want to go see about these three boys.

00:12:10.500 Why did they leave?

00:12:11.760 And to make a long story short, I walked around the corner and one of the boys came,

00:12:15.280 is walking up to me and he grabs me by two of my fingers.

00:12:19.180 And I try to say hey to him.

00:12:20.040 He says nothing.

00:12:20.660 He just grabs me and he pulls me back to this tiny little bamboo hut.

00:12:24.660 And he walks in there and then I get on my knees and I crawl in there.

00:12:28.420 And I see the other two boys and one of them's sitting there holding a boy's hand like this

00:12:34.440 and the other one's laying on the cot and it looks like everything's fine.

00:12:37.520 But then I see the boy laying on the cot.

00:12:39.600 I see his legs.

00:12:40.700 I see they're on backwards.

00:12:42.240 And it was really the first time I'd ever seen anything like this that close and personal.

00:12:46.800 And so I get a little bit emotional, but I hold it back and I'm sitting there

00:12:50.060 and I'm talking with these three boys and I'm sharing why we're there

00:12:53.600 and God's heart and love for them.

00:12:55.660 And the whole time I just had to ask though, I don't know why,

00:12:59.500 I just feel like I had to ask, why did you leave?

00:13:03.020 When everybody was so excited to see the Americans, why did you leave?

00:13:08.680 And Sherwin is the name of the boy with his feet on backward

00:13:11.440 and looks at me and said, because our principal really wants to make a good impression

00:13:16.740 and impress the Americans.

00:13:18.340 And I've been told my whole life that I'm not impressive.

00:13:21.700 And I just knew that I was here now for a reason.

00:13:24.860 Right. So you had to be, he had to be hidden from you.

00:13:27.540 Yes.

00:13:28.080 Right. Because it would bring the village into disgrace.

00:13:30.640 Yes.

00:13:31.320 Right.

00:13:31.980 And...

00:13:32.540 See, there's a very interesting, there's a very interesting,

00:13:36.120 it's not surprising that that had such an impact on you

00:13:38.620 because the attitude that you're describing that would lead that boy to be isolated,

00:13:45.460 that is, you could say in a way that that's the standard human attitude towards abnormality.

00:13:53.880 Like, and I would say that was particularly true in the pre-Christian world,

00:13:57.640 is that if there was, if someone was deformed or abnormal in any way,

00:14:03.160 that the conclusion would be that they were cursed.

00:14:07.700 Yes.

00:14:08.020 And that they were less than.

00:14:10.600 Yes.

00:14:10.780 And the evidence would be the fact of their disability.

00:14:13.940 Yes.

00:14:14.220 Right.

00:14:14.520 And a huge part of the impact of the Christian revolution was that the last will be first.

00:14:22.600 Right.

00:14:22.880 And that the most appropriate target of true power is service to the people who are hurt most.

00:14:34.300 It's a complete redefinition of what constitutes sovereignty.

00:14:37.780 That's an unbelievably revolutionary proposition, right?

00:14:41.700 That the king of everything should serve those who are most in need.

00:14:46.800 Yes.

00:14:47.020 And that the symbol of true sovereignty was the ability to engage in that service.

00:14:51.540 And so then you had a direct encounter with someone who was the opposite of what you were celebrated for, really.

00:14:59.480 Right?

00:14:59.820 That's a good way of thinking about it.

00:15:01.280 And these boys that were with him, were they his friends?

00:15:05.780 They were.

00:15:07.260 And I would say Sherwin radically impacted my life.

00:15:10.940 But I also want to mention these two boys radically impacted my life, too, because they weren't told to leave.

00:15:18.960 They left because they were not going to leave Sherwin.

00:15:23.940 So he didn't get to come to the group meeting.

00:15:25.620 So he didn't get to come and he was shunned.

00:15:28.220 He was there and they said, you need to leave so you don't disgrace everyone.

00:15:31.300 Oh, I see.

00:15:31.880 And they left, too, with him.

00:15:33.540 And so then when I'm with them, our team comes and they've been looking for me.

00:15:38.540 They found me in this bamboo hut.

00:15:40.060 And they're like, Timmy, we got to go.

00:15:41.200 And I'm like, no, I'm never leaving.

00:15:42.420 They're like, yes, you are.

00:15:43.100 Let's go.

00:15:43.520 And so as I'm getting ready to walk out, Sherwin says with such hesitation, but would you carry me?

00:15:54.080 And I'm thinking like, dude, of course, like, yes, like, no problem.

00:15:57.880 So I pick him up.

00:15:58.720 When I pick him up, one of his friends grabs a hand and the other grabs one of his feet and they hold on to him.

00:16:03.600 They're so close.

00:16:04.680 He made such a mark on me.

00:16:05.760 And we walk out of the bamboo hut and there was some of our team and then some of the Filipinos.

00:16:09.860 And when I step outside carrying him, you could literally hear an audible gasp.

00:16:15.800 And at first I'm thinking, what's what?

00:16:18.220 You know, like looking around.

00:16:19.520 But then I realized they were gasping because I was carrying the curse boy.

00:16:24.500 Yeah, right.

00:16:25.280 And that's how they were still hearing, even though they'd also just heard the good news of the gospel, that God loves everyone, that every single one is fearfully and wonderfully made.

00:16:36.240 And I'm carrying him through some of the crowd and you could see some of the people like almost watch them contemplating.

00:16:44.400 Wait a second.

00:16:45.500 Is he cursed or is he loved and valuable as the Americans were telling us?

00:16:51.040 And you see, some don't know.

00:16:53.580 But then finally, one of the elders of the village, as we're walking by, walks up and puts her hand on his shoulder as to say, sort of, you're now welcome here.

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00:17:59.480 And then another one did another one, but still some would back off like we're not still sure.

00:18:06.500 Right.

00:18:06.880 And then team saying, we got to go.

00:18:08.940 So we walk over to the Jeep and I, I, I set Sherwin down.

00:18:12.280 I put his arms around his two friends and I get on my knees and I, I pray with these three boys.

00:18:16.320 And I tell them, I don't know when I'm going to get to see you again, if I'm going to get to see you again in the Philippines or if you'll get to see me in America.

00:18:23.860 But I totally believe one day I'll be able to see you in heaven.

00:18:27.720 And Sherwin looks at me and says, which means brother, I can't wait to run with you in heaven.

00:18:33.200 And it's a boy who's never walked a day in his life.

00:18:35.980 But somehow the first thought he had was, I can't wait to run with you in heaven.

00:18:40.080 So what became of Sherwin?

00:18:42.140 How did that?

00:18:43.360 I don't know.

00:18:44.040 I so wish we would have been able to get back to that island and that village and meet him.

00:18:55.860 But I do know now that many boys and girls in the Philippines, because of our amazing team and partners, that there's a hospital that cares for boys and girls just like him, that we bring them in from all over the country.

00:19:09.060 And many times they're wheeled in or carried in, but they get to walk out and they get to be loved and cared for along the way.

00:19:16.100 And I'm so grateful because that happened because of Sherwin.

00:19:18.840 Right, right, right.

00:19:21.480 All right.

00:19:22.140 So now we also talked about the other paradoxical element here was this issue of competition.

00:19:28.340 And so you said a couple of things.

00:19:30.640 You said that you were very motivated to become the best football player, the MVP.

00:19:38.580 And you said you were also called to serve the most vulnerable people.

00:19:41.940 So that's kind of a nice analog.

00:19:43.880 But I'm very curious about how you see the relationship between the competitiveness that has characterized your athletic career and this calling to higher service.

00:19:57.440 Because as I pointed out, people often believe that that competitive spirit is the antithesis of...

00:20:04.440 I totally disagree.

00:20:06.780 Okay, okay.

00:20:07.340 So I want to hear why.

00:20:08.880 I believe wholeheartedly that competitiveness is not the problem.

00:20:15.840 It's where you steer it.

00:20:17.100 Now, if that competitiveness is steered with the ultimate goal of just win or success or a game or championship, then you're missing the mark.

00:20:25.640 And I don't even think those things are wrong.

00:20:27.420 Right.

00:20:27.620 It's not that they're wrong, but are those first place in your mind and in your heart?

00:20:31.960 Are those more valuable?

00:20:33.840 How do you figure that out?

00:20:34.820 By failing a lot at it, I think.

00:20:36.520 Okay, well, I'm very curious about that.

00:20:38.920 Okay, so now you said by the time you were 15, you know, you were already in a position psychologically so that when you went to the Philippines, you could have the experience that you just described.

00:20:49.500 So you're already reasonably awake.

00:20:51.200 Now, let's go back.

00:20:52.540 Like, you were homeschooled, I understand.

00:20:54.260 I'm a bit reasonably awake.

00:20:55.500 Well, you know, how awake can you be at 15?

00:20:57.880 You know, I mean, hopefully you're more awake now, like we all are by the time we're older.

00:21:03.080 So let's go back.

00:21:04.600 Now, you were homeschooled.

00:21:06.140 Yes, sir.

00:21:06.520 Okay, so tell me about, and everybody else, about how your athletic ability developed and how that related to being homeschooled and then how that came about.

00:21:17.420 And then I want to take that thread and I want to tie it to what you just described, which is, see, because you said something that's very profound.

00:21:24.880 So my son is a very competitive person and he was an ornery little kid.

00:21:30.500 And he was a lot of fun to have around because he was a really tough little kid.

00:21:33.960 He basically had his mother defeated already when he was nine months old.

00:21:37.400 And she's tough.

00:21:39.060 And so, you know, he was very goal-directed and he didn't like anything getting in his way.

00:21:43.420 And he had a will.

00:21:44.320 And what he managed to do, and very young, by the time he was three, this was already pretty much in place, he managed to integrate that competitiveness into a very disciplined personality that was also very diplomatic.

00:21:58.800 And then he became a very good athlete and he became the sort of athlete that people also really wanted to have on their team.

00:22:06.920 And so what he did with that competitive masculine drive was put it in the right place.

00:22:11.780 You know, when God calls on Adam, this is Adam's job as the spirit, the human spirit that continues the process of creation.

00:22:23.320 God calls upon Adam to name things and to subdue them, which means to put them in their proper place with relationship to one another.

00:22:31.820 And your claim was that that competitive spirit, if it is directed only towards victory, only towards victory and say self-aggrandizement, then it can become a curse.

00:22:42.080 But if it's put in its right place, subordinate to something higher, then it's a benefit.

00:22:46.480 And that's intelligence is like that too, you know, when it's king of the castle, it's Satan himself, it's Lucifer.

00:22:53.540 But when it's in the right place, it's the highest of all serving angels, you could say.

00:22:59.660 So let's go back.

00:23:01.560 I would like to know how your athletic ability developed, especially given that you're homeschooled.

00:23:07.800 And then I want to know how you figured out how to keep that in the proper place, given, you know, you had so much success that it could have been,

00:23:18.380 it must have even been tempting for you to become narcissistic about that.

00:23:22.780 I mean, that's an easy path for people to take when their ability makes them stand out in such a spectacular way.

00:23:29.820 And so, but it seems to me that even by the time you were 15, you knew that that was, there was something deeply inappropriate about that.

00:23:35.780 So let's go back.

00:23:37.140 Like, how did, I don't understand how you, how you developed your athletic ability in relation to team sports and were homeschooled.

00:23:45.800 How did that come about?

00:23:46.980 Can I back it up even to my birth?

00:23:49.360 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:23:50.120 Start at the beginning.

00:23:51.020 I think that plays a lot into it.

00:23:54.840 When, in 1986, my dad was preaching in a remote village in the Philippines.

00:24:00.840 And before he went on stage to preach, he just started to weep for all of the babies that were being aborted around the world.

00:24:09.520 And just this almost uncontrollable weeping and mourning.

00:24:13.000 And he, my mom and dad had four kids at the time living in the Philippines.

00:24:19.060 And as he was weeping, he felt God put it on his heart to have another child.

00:24:25.940 And if it was a boy that God put on his heart, his name would be Timothy, which means honoring God.

00:24:32.760 And he went home and told my mom that God had put this on his heart.

00:24:38.600 My mom's like, well, God didn't put it on my heart.

00:24:40.620 So I don't know what you want to do.

00:24:41.640 Yeah, seems like it's really, she's really involved in the whole deal.

00:24:46.800 She started to pray about it.

00:24:48.560 And not long after, God put it on her heart.

00:24:51.260 And not long after that, she became pregnant.

00:24:53.620 At least they thought she was pregnant.

00:24:55.360 But then some of the doctors said, no, it's not a baby.

00:24:58.420 It's a tumor.

00:24:59.460 It's a massive fetal tissue.

00:25:00.840 And then they, you know, they found out, long story made short, it was a baby.

00:25:06.580 And they wanted her to have an abortion or it'll cost her life and my life.

00:25:11.280 And I'm just so grateful for my mom and my dad because in the middle of this, they trusted God and loved me and gave me a chance.

00:25:20.380 And there was issues with the entire pregnancy.

00:25:24.680 The placenta wasn't properly attached.

00:25:26.520 She had amoeba dysentery.

00:25:27.740 She went into a coma, all sorts of different things in the pregnancy.

00:25:31.960 And the doctor who had, who finally helped my mom give birth, had done this for thousands and thousands of women.

00:25:39.680 And he looked at my parents and said, I don't know how your baby boy is alive because the placenta is barely attached.

00:25:47.800 All of these issues.

00:25:48.840 It's the greatest miracle that I've ever seen.

00:25:51.300 And I was malnourished, but I did make up for it pretty quickly.

00:25:56.100 How old was your mom?

00:25:57.320 When you were born?

00:25:59.100 Oh, my goodness.

00:26:00.960 It's probably closer to 40.

00:26:03.880 No, no, no.

00:26:04.860 Probably a little bit younger than that.

00:26:06.460 But she wasn't older.

00:26:07.220 I was a baby of five.

00:26:08.520 So probably around 35 maybe.

00:26:10.560 Okay, okay.

00:26:11.140 And I think that was very impactful for me, not just for that time as a baby, but then growing up, my parents would say to me almost every night, Timia, we want you to know God spared you for a reason.

00:26:31.180 You were a miracle baby.

00:26:33.300 And God's got a special plan for your life.

00:26:37.700 Do you know what happens when you hear that over and over and over again?

00:26:41.000 You start to believe it.

00:26:42.340 Mm-hmm.

00:26:42.860 So what did it mean to believe that when you were little?

00:26:46.820 That you're not here by happenstance, that you're not here by accident, that you're here on purpose, for a purpose, with a purpose.

00:26:54.940 Right, right.

00:26:55.480 So you have a destiny.

00:26:56.920 Yes.

00:26:57.600 And I've also fell in love with sports at a very early age.

00:27:02.120 My whole family, insanely competitive.

00:27:04.480 Like, you would love them.

00:27:05.660 They're awesome people.

00:27:06.920 Like, my parents are two of my biggest heroes.

00:27:09.400 But, like, if we all sat down and played, like, Monopoly or Risk, you would think we hate each other.

00:27:13.920 We're so competitive.

00:27:15.060 Like, but it's just our whole family's that way.

00:27:17.880 And when we moved back from the States, we moved right here to Jacksonville, Florida, and they were like, we got to sign him up for sports.

00:27:25.440 So they signed me up for T-ball at Normandy Baseball Park.

00:27:28.760 And I was so excited.

00:27:29.600 I show up to the first game on the White Sox at number 35, just like my favorite player, Frank Thomas.

00:27:35.580 And Coach Langley gathers us together before we take the field for the first inning.

00:27:39.020 He says, okay, guys, now it doesn't matter whether you win or lose.

00:27:42.500 It's only about having fun.

00:27:44.540 I got to be honest.

00:27:45.400 We've only been in America for a little bit.

00:27:46.840 And I'm thinking, is this what America is about?

00:27:49.280 Because this sucks.

00:27:50.600 And I say, you ain't got a shirt.

00:27:51.960 And I say, no, Coach, you're wrong.

00:27:53.380 It's only about winning.

00:27:54.560 That's when you have fun.

00:27:56.240 Right.

00:27:57.300 He doesn't know what to do with me.

00:27:59.260 So this is a really important point.

00:28:01.020 So there's a developmental psychologist named Jean Piaget, who was the world's greatest developmental psychologist.

00:28:07.160 And he was very, very interested in the relationship between games and socialization and social order.

00:28:13.360 And so Piaget believed, proved, I think, especially in light of later research, that the games that children play are a microcosm of society.

00:28:23.460 And that the idea that competition is wrong is predicated on a misunderstanding of the relationship between competition and cooperation.

00:28:32.380 So because if you have, imagine a typical basketball game, you have two teams, and obviously the teams are competing with one another.

00:28:41.640 And so then you can take one team and you can say the players are competing with one another to be the best player.

00:28:46.460 And so the whole thing is saturated with competition, and that's patriarchal and oppressive and aggressive and all those terrible things.

00:28:53.520 But what people who undertake that analysis fail to understand is that while the basketball teams are competing with each other at one level, but at a higher level, they're cooperating because they're playing by the same rules.

00:29:07.240 And then within the team, the same thing applies.

00:29:17.200 It's like, we're all struggling to be the best, but we're struggling as a team.

00:29:22.900 And so what that means is that each of our struggles to be the best can support the whole team, and they can support each of our individual attempts to struggle to be the best.

00:29:33.020 Now, you related that to your family, and so the first part of the story is, we have a really tight family, and everyone's aiming up, and they're oriented properly.

00:29:42.400 So that's the cooperative frame.

00:29:44.180 And then the competition frame is, well, once we've established the foundations of upward striving cooperation, we can scrap like mad dogs, and that makes us better, and that makes the game fun.

00:29:57.360 And the coach that you described, he didn't understand that.

00:30:00.600 He thought that fun was what you had when you weren't being competitive.

00:30:05.200 Yeah.

00:30:05.560 Right.

00:30:05.920 Well, and every kid knows that's nonsense, because if kids have the opportunity to select their own teammates, you know, how the captain picks, and then the other captain picks, is the kids will automatically pick the best athletes or the most competitive.

00:30:21.180 You're not going to pick the worst ones.

00:30:22.580 No, definitely not.

00:30:23.620 Because they want to win.

00:30:24.680 Yeah.

00:30:24.980 Yeah, well, and it's also a betrayal of the principles of the game to not try to win, because the question immediately arises, every child understands this intrinsically, is, well, if you're not trying to win, what the hell is the game for?

00:30:40.040 That's right.

00:30:40.720 Even when they say, don't keep score, every kid still keeps score in their head.

00:30:44.980 Yeah, don't keep score.

00:30:48.040 It's like, what that means is, don't keep score means what you're doing is irrelevant, because no matter what you do, at what level, it's all the same, and it's equal fun.

00:30:58.580 And that's, there's no excellence in that, right?

00:31:01.600 Agreed.

00:31:02.040 And I think one of the interesting things that I believe the story touches on is, then he doesn't understand me.

00:31:09.940 Let's the rest of the kids go to their places, and he says, will you wait right here?

00:31:13.240 And he walks down the first baseline to where my dad is, and he says, Mr. Tebow, are you coming here?

00:31:17.700 My dad walks down, and he said, Mr. Tebow, I think we have a problem with your son.

00:31:22.080 And he said, oh, what's the problem?

00:31:23.480 And he said, he's overly competitive.

00:31:26.040 Right, so that was your first day.

00:31:27.520 That's my first day.

00:31:28.420 And so, my dad comes walking around the chain link fence, you know, and I'm thinking, oh, no, like, I just screwed up.

00:31:36.680 I'm about to get in trouble.

00:31:37.880 And I look at my dad, and I see he's got a belt on, and I'm like, oh, no, I'm about to get a spanking on first base.

00:31:43.720 Oh, no, this is terrible.

00:31:44.920 This is not a good day.

00:31:45.960 This is not a good day.

00:31:47.080 Like, to me, it's a World Series Super Bowl all mixed into one.

00:31:50.180 He opens the chain link fence, he comes walking over.

00:31:52.900 My dad, especially then, was a pretty stern-looking, intimidating-looking guy, and he walks over.

00:31:58.480 He leans over, and he looks me in the eye, and he says, Timmy, it's okay.

00:32:02.120 He just doesn't understand.

00:32:03.920 Oh, boy.

00:32:04.640 He doesn't get it.

00:32:05.900 And I was like, yes, that's good.

00:32:07.520 Oh, man, that's good.

00:32:07.940 Yeah, well, that's so important because, I don't know, like, I've interviewed a lot of people, well, in my clinical practice, but then 500 people, I guess, as part of this podcast.

00:32:19.940 And one of the things I'm always curious about is, because all the people I interview have been outstanding in one way or another, and I'm very curious to see what makes them tick.

00:32:29.880 And one of the things that's pretty much universal among them is that both their parents had their backs.

00:32:36.360 And I think if you look at that developmentally, what you see, this is a cliche, I suppose, but it's basically right, is that what you get from your mother is, especially really early in life, is this embodied sense of your ultimate value.

00:32:56.620 Because a mother, especially in the first year, has to sacrifice everything to indicate to you that it's a good thing, that something as small and useless as you actually is around, right?

00:33:08.280 So she subjugates everything to establishing that relationship and enticing you into the world.

00:33:14.220 So, you know, if you take babies and you give them food and shelter and warmth, like material security, but they don't get attention and they don't get touch, they die, right?

00:33:24.880 Like 100% of them die without maternal attention.

00:33:27.760 And that's even the case for complex animals like rats.

00:33:30.860 It's like maternal attention and touch, love, is a primary need.

00:33:37.100 So a baby's eyes literally have the natural focal distance of eye to breast.

00:33:43.220 That's where they see most naturally.

00:33:45.140 And so the mother sets that inclusion foundation.

00:33:49.380 But then the father's goal is to have your back in situations like that and to say to you particularly, particularly this.

00:33:58.140 See, you see this in the story of Abraham because God comes to Abraham as the spirit of adventure.

00:34:04.680 So God comes to Abraham, he's like in his 70s and he's being dependent and infantilized and overly secure his whole life because his parents are rich.

00:34:14.340 So he doesn't have to lift a finger and God says to him, you go out in the world and have your adventure and everything will come to you.

00:34:21.260 You'll be a blessing to yourself.

00:34:22.800 You'll establish something of permanence.

00:34:25.140 You'll be, your name will become known among everyone and validly.

00:34:29.120 And you'll do that in a way that will bring abundance to everyone else.

00:34:31.940 If you're adventurous, if you strive forward.

00:34:34.700 And that's what your father did for you that day.

00:34:36.920 You know, he said, even in the face of your coach, he said, no, your desire to put everything behind it and to become victorious.

00:34:47.320 That's correct.

00:34:48.480 And that's a very complicated thing to get right.

00:34:50.700 Very complicated.

00:34:51.040 You know, and you guys had just come back to the States too, eh?

00:34:53.560 Yes.

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00:35:54.840 But I want to add to that because I think it makes a powerful point.

00:36:02.040 So that game we play and ultimately, I mean, we have teammates that are in the outfield looking for four-leaf clovers

00:36:08.820 and half the kids just care about what color snow cone they get after the game.

00:36:12.240 And they find out I'm a decent athlete.

00:36:14.040 You know, they didn't know because we were overseas, but they find out I'm decent at the game and I did pretty good.

00:36:19.580 But my parents also found out how easy it was for me to become extremely arrogant and proud because that's on a Saturday.

00:36:27.120 And the first thing I want to do after the first game is tell everybody how I did.

00:36:31.100 Hey, guess what?

00:36:31.680 I had this many hits.

00:36:32.540 I had this many home runs.

00:36:33.520 I made this many plays.

00:36:34.580 And I wanted to tell everybody.

00:36:36.060 And so the first thing my parents did was instill a rule for me and my siblings, but specifically really for me,

00:36:43.780 that before we were allowed to play a sporting activity, we would have to memorize scripture verses, but specifically on humility.

00:36:50.980 And I'm so grateful, even though I couldn't understand a lot of them at the time or maybe what they all meant.

00:37:00.580 And I'm still maybe don't always understand what they mean, but they started to instill that, not just about the balance of competition, but no, be competitive.

00:37:12.540 Go win.

00:37:13.260 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might.

00:37:16.020 Yeah, yeah.

00:37:16.660 But it's not everything.

00:37:19.620 And I remember one of the great, the first verse I did to memorize, the greatest among you will be a servant.

00:37:24.140 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled.

00:37:25.880 Whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

00:37:27.540 So they were teaching me to go compete or allowing me to go compete and supporting me.

00:37:33.360 But then they would say, winning at this isn't everything.

00:37:36.560 Yeah.

00:37:37.140 And then try to use that as an example.

00:37:41.120 How did you understand that as a kid?

00:37:42.960 Because that's a very paradoxical thing to hold in mind, right?

00:37:46.000 It's like, well, if winning is crucial and if I should throw everything behind it, then why aren't I the greatest thing in the universe if I manage that successfully, right?

00:37:55.180 That's a very difficult thing to figure out.

00:37:56.920 And you see kids, you know, my son participated in pretty advanced hockey and soccer because he was a pretty good athlete.

00:38:04.980 And, oh, man, a lot of the parents, we saw the worst displays of human behavior at hockey games and soccer games in Canada that you can possibly imagine.

00:38:15.880 Like, the parents were just utterly demented, right?

00:38:18.840 And a lot of them, they were just crazy.

00:38:22.340 There's probably a few parents like that here in the South for baseball, basketball, and football as well.

00:38:27.560 Yeah, no doubt.

00:38:28.260 I mean, we went to a hockey game at one point where this character, whose son was a pretty good player.

00:38:33.280 So, in a hockey arena, you have the glass, of course, that stops people from being brained by random pucks.

00:38:39.500 And between the glass, there'd be a space about this big between the sheets of glass.

00:38:43.480 And this guy would park himself with his mouth between those spaces and do nothing the entire game except yell insults at the referee.

00:38:53.600 And that was his contribution to the game.

00:38:56.280 Like, Tammy and I used to go sit somewhere empty to be away from the parents because they were pumping up the egos of their kids, you know.

00:39:05.340 And you could see that they were acting out their own unlived dreams.

00:39:08.900 That's a good way of thinking about it, which is not something you should do with your kids.

00:39:12.060 And, but it does point to this underlying paradox, which is, well, you want to encourage your children to be the best at what they do.

00:39:22.440 And that might make them socially dominant and intimidating and admirable.

00:39:28.060 And if they are all those things, then why shouldn't they be narcissistic and self-aggrandizing?

00:39:35.080 Because after all, they're wonderful.

00:39:36.880 And that's a really hard thing to get right.

00:39:38.740 Now, your parents, you also described your dad as a, so he's a missionary, but he doesn't sound to me like someone who's naive or soft.

00:39:47.600 I mean, you said.

00:39:48.360 No, my dad would not be someone that was soft.

00:39:51.960 My dad is one of the most courageous people I've ever met in my life.

00:39:56.960 If one day I could ever get to a tenth of his courage, it would be a good day.

00:40:02.220 So what made him, any idea what made him what he is?

00:40:05.680 I think his belief, his faith in Christ, and that propels him and the confidence and the hope that it gives him.

00:40:16.540 And my mom, both of them are willing to go to the mission field with four kids, have one more while they're there, go to really hard places.

00:40:25.400 My dad was put into jail multiple times in different countries when he would go and share.

00:40:31.940 And I think one of the greatest things I could say about my dad is he gave the majority of his adult life to help people that could never do anything for him.

00:40:40.360 And my mom was there to support and handle and love so much while he's gone.

00:40:46.320 And because they knew they were called to do that.

00:40:50.620 And when I mean courage is that my dad would go into places and they would say, hey, if you share and we want you to know we'll kill you.

00:41:03.380 And he would get up and still tell people how much God loves them.

00:41:08.060 And I remember one time there's a guy that shows up to where my dad's preaching and he has a machete and he walks from the back to the front.

00:41:15.440 And my dad just starts feeling compelled to talk about forgiveness.

00:41:19.800 And by the time he gets to the front, he says, Mr. Teepo, I want to ask for your forgiveness because I was sent here to kill you.

00:41:28.820 Wow.

00:41:29.220 I want you to ask if you would forgive me.

00:41:33.540 And two times in my young life overseas, I got to see my mom say to my dad, we only have a couple of dollars left.

00:41:42.780 And my dad says, it's okay.

00:41:44.620 Give it away.

00:41:46.380 And then give it away.

00:41:47.500 And both times we had neighbors that felt compelled, didn't know anything, but both times come over, knock on the door and say, hey, we don't know why.

00:41:56.640 We just felt like we were compelled to bring you guys dinner tonight.

00:42:00.440 And as my wife says, it's just a God wink moment.

00:42:03.980 And you'll be able to see that.

00:42:05.680 Right.

00:42:05.920 So your parents were willing to live on the edge.

00:42:08.100 They were willing to live out that faith in a way that I've never had to.

00:42:13.460 I never have.

00:42:15.100 They've done it with such courage and conviction.

00:42:18.140 It's why they're such heroes to me.

00:42:20.920 It's so grateful.

00:42:25.340 All right.

00:42:26.120 So they saw that you were good at baseball right away.

00:42:32.000 And you said you were getting puffed up about that pretty quick.

00:42:35.460 Very quick.

00:42:35.680 And their response.

00:42:36.460 It's insane how fast you become arrogant, especially as a kid.

00:42:39.820 Yeah.

00:42:40.000 But it's also not surprising, right?

00:42:42.580 I mean, if you're good at something and you get a lot of attention from your teammates, and that's obviously the natural place that you'd go.

00:42:49.960 And trying to figure out what to do about that so you keep the competitive edge without becoming narcissistic.

00:42:56.060 But I was also a terrible teammate.

00:42:58.420 Ah.

00:42:58.740 Yeah.

00:42:59.040 I was a terrible teammate because I thought winning was just about my performance and how good I could do for the team.

00:43:05.760 And I didn't realize it's also about building everyone up so it would be better as a team.

00:43:10.820 Yeah.

00:43:11.040 It was a frustration.

00:43:12.860 Why are, you know, why do some of the kids care just about finding a four-leaf clover?

00:43:18.440 Don't understand the rules.

00:43:19.320 Why do you care about a snow cone?

00:43:21.160 And my parents really did a good job.

00:43:24.180 Well, Timmy, not everybody's competitive as you.

00:43:26.240 Not everybody cares as much about the game as you.

00:43:29.260 But one thing that I always, always, always share, Timmy, that doesn't mean they're any less valuable.

00:43:35.680 It doesn't mean any of them are any less.

00:43:38.040 They just care about it a little less.

00:43:39.900 They're not less.

00:43:41.040 Right.

00:43:41.760 But that still leaves you with a terrible conundrum, right?

00:43:44.480 Because, so let's walk through that too.

00:43:46.740 Because if you're trying to train to encourage your child to become a great athlete, let's say, or great at anything for that matter, there is two things they have to learn.

00:43:56.280 And one is to develop their skills to the degree that that's possible.

00:43:59.880 But the next thing is to pull the team together and have them all work in the same direction, right?

00:44:05.780 And encourage them.

00:44:06.640 But then the situation you're in, and this is like a randomly aggregated sports team.

00:44:12.220 You're going to have half the people who actually don't care that much.

00:44:16.940 And some of it's because they have other interests, and some of it is because—

00:44:20.380 Because their parents made them go play.

00:44:22.040 Yeah, sure, sure.

00:44:22.580 Or they have no discipline.

00:44:25.220 Like there's real problems.

00:44:26.520 So, okay, so how did you learn to—and then your parents are saying, well, those kids are equally valuable, but then they're not focused on the game.

00:44:34.280 So that leaves you with a conceptual problem.

00:44:35.580 But their value doesn't come from how you do in a game.

00:44:38.200 Your value comes from being made in the image of God and the worth and the value all humanity has.

00:44:43.660 And so—

00:44:44.160 That's a hard thing to figure out when you're eight.

00:44:46.140 That's right.

00:44:46.680 You might be disappointed in how someone plays, but you can't be disappointed in who somebody is.

00:44:51.400 There's a difference.

00:44:52.060 Right, right.

00:44:52.580 And it's always trying to keep that in mind.

00:44:54.660 Something that's so easy for me as a competitor to lose sight of is the balance between those two.

00:45:01.060 So how did you bridge that gap?

00:45:05.920 And like, what did you have to learn?

00:45:07.680 And so you said, to begin with, you weren't a good teammate.

00:45:10.800 No, I don't believe so.

00:45:12.460 Okay, so what were you like when you weren't a good teammate?

00:45:16.160 I think because it was too much about me.

00:45:19.760 And I was thinking, well, how can I go win the game versus how can I be a better teammate and believe and uplift and encourage others, even when I may be frustrated because they're not paying attention?

00:45:30.880 Right, right.

00:45:31.220 Or they're doing something else.

00:45:33.560 But if I really want to give our team the best chance to win, then I need to build them up, not tear them down.

00:45:40.480 Yeah, definitely.

00:45:41.160 I need to be able to encourage them.

00:45:42.980 I need to try to put myself in their shoes.

00:45:45.180 I need to try to understand.

00:45:46.460 I need to find a way to actually pull us together versus just try a little bit harder.

00:45:51.480 Yeah, right, right.

00:45:52.340 Okay, and did you learn that?

00:45:54.480 I think I learned it, but I think just when you learn something doesn't mean you do it well.

00:46:02.000 And so it's constantly trying to practice that.

00:46:03.860 Yeah, well, it's a very difficult thing to get right.

00:46:05.520 And understand that and grow and improve.

00:46:06.680 And then still sometimes I feel like I would take steps back in it.

00:46:11.440 And as I grew up and playing so many different sports and leagues and championships and everything, that there were, I think, highs and lows that came with that.

00:46:22.100 Because then I got to play on other LMS teams when I was young.

00:46:27.160 And we would compete for championships, like national championships in baseball and in football and some very competitive teams in basketball as well.

00:46:36.440 And so then everybody was all in.

00:46:39.500 It was win at all costs type, even from a very young age.

00:46:43.100 How old were you when you started the team sports?

00:46:46.000 Five.

00:46:46.700 Five.

00:46:47.240 Okay, okay.

00:46:47.840 So you're in there very early.

00:46:49.120 And how many different sports?

00:46:50.540 Three, baseball, basketball, football.

00:46:52.160 And were you equally good at all three?

00:46:55.240 When I was young, probably.

00:46:58.160 And then as I grew, probably got slightly better in football and baseball than in basketball.

00:47:05.620 Okay, okay.

00:47:06.600 And so, okay, so you're in a highly competitive environment.

00:47:10.080 When do you start to emerge as a team leader rather than as an individual star?

00:47:16.200 I think still at a pretty young age.

00:47:18.880 But that's not because you're a good leader.

00:47:20.760 It's just because as a better player or a competent player, people would look to you.

00:47:27.820 Right.

00:47:28.000 And so I think at an early age, but I still don't believe that I led in a really good way many times.

00:47:34.240 But you said that skill developed across time.

00:47:36.720 What had to change about how you were interacting with your teammates to make you a better team player?

00:47:43.960 How did that skill develop?

00:47:45.940 And what role did your parents play, or your coaches for that matter, or your own reflections?

00:47:54.340 They played such a pivotal role in it, conversations with my mom and my dad about it, trying to learn from failure, talking through it afterwards with my dad, talking through it with my mom, trying to be patient, trying to be understanding.

00:48:09.940 Right, so they're paying attention to how you're doing on the field, and they're watching you, and they're listening to you afterwards, and you're strategizing together.

00:48:18.800 Yes.

00:48:20.700 And I would say one of the most special things is the whole time they're always reminding me, but it's not the end of the world.

00:48:30.040 It's not everything.

00:48:30.780 Yeah.

00:48:31.440 And there was always that balance that, to me, sometimes where I would fail, where I still fail, is when it becomes everything.

00:48:40.180 Yeah.

00:48:40.540 It's not, then it's not in its proper place.

00:48:42.920 Yeah, yeah.

00:48:43.740 Well, it's also a hard thing to get right, though, too, because you want to win, and so that means losing matters.

00:48:49.280 But then, the thing about losing.

00:48:51.780 But what do you want to win at most in life?

00:48:54.200 Well, I would say one of the things you want to win at is you want to win at learning how to lose so that you don't stop, right?

00:49:03.020 I mean, the other real advantage to competitive sports is losing, because you lose, say, roughly half the time.

00:49:11.560 Okay, and you might say, well, why do you need the experience of losing?

00:49:15.340 Why can't everybody just win all the time?

00:49:17.940 And the first answer to that is, you don't win all the time in life.

00:49:21.680 That's right.

00:49:22.000 Like, you're going to get set back a lot.

00:49:24.600 And so, one of the things you have to learn, maybe the most important thing, possibly, is how to be resilient and grateful and upward striving in the face of failure.

00:49:34.800 Yeah.

00:49:35.140 Right?

00:49:35.540 And so.

00:49:36.260 How to deal with it.

00:49:37.480 And at the most, that's why the competition should be heightened, too, because you want to learn how to lose gracefully and in a resilient manner when the stakes are super high.

00:49:48.700 Yeah.

00:49:48.900 Right?

00:49:49.460 Because then you're tough.

00:49:50.600 And so, that's a great victory.

00:49:52.720 And it's one of your greatest motivators.

00:49:55.020 Those scars from losses are also some of the things that motivate you the most.

00:50:01.700 During this holy season, I'd like us to take a moment to think about something amazing.

00:50:06.880 You.

00:50:07.540 Psalms tells us that God carefully knit you together in your mother's womb.

00:50:11.040 He saw who you were meant to be before you even existed.

00:50:13.760 At Preborn Ministries, they believe each person is made in God's image and that all life is sacred and eternal.

00:50:19.400 Maybe not all pregnancies are planned, but that's okay.

00:50:22.000 Whether they're planned or not, all life has incredible value.

00:50:24.880 And God has a purpose for everyone.

00:50:26.680 Each day, they're here.

00:50:27.740 Today, I invite you to thank God for the gift of life and to remember the babies still in their mother's womb.

00:50:32.740 Their lives matter, too.

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00:50:59.140 When I look back on my career, especially in college, like, it's hard for me.

00:51:09.680 So, for example, we had 12 rivalry games in my four years at Florida.

00:51:13.760 We went 11-1.

00:51:15.300 I think about that one.

00:51:17.120 Define a rivalry game.

00:51:18.420 So, three biggest rivalries for us is Florida versus Georgia, Florida versus Tennessee, and Florida versus another team in the state, Florida State.

00:51:27.560 I hate even saying their name.

00:51:28.760 Right.

00:51:29.220 So, these are high-stakes games on a reputational level.

00:51:31.980 Oh, yes.

00:51:32.160 And your fans have a lot at stake.

00:51:34.040 Yes.

00:51:36.000 And we went 11-1 in those games.

00:51:38.820 And I think about the one more than I think about the 11 combined.

00:51:42.800 And because it makes a mark.

00:51:47.320 And it gave such a weight to me.

00:51:51.720 I was so hurt and sad, not just for me, but for my family and for my team and for my teammates, for my teammates' family.

00:52:01.420 Because it mattered that much.

00:52:04.720 And I think that scar can either cripple you or propel you.

00:52:09.460 It can cripple you by just sitting and saying, what a terrible loss.

00:52:13.540 Or it can propel you.

00:52:14.440 Say, I never want to go through this again.

00:52:16.780 What I'm representing, who I get to represent, my teammates, my care for them, my coaches, my family, all of it.

00:52:22.440 I never want to go through this again.

00:52:24.240 So, now I'm going to double down on my work.

00:52:26.500 I'm going to do it, and I'm going to do it, and I'm going to do it again.

00:52:29.100 Because I don't want to go through this again.

00:52:30.880 I don't want my teammates to go through this again.

00:52:32.680 I don't want my family to look at me like that again with the sadness on their eyes.

00:52:36.500 Because they know that I'm hurting.

00:52:37.820 Like, all of that can propel you if you let it, if you use it as fuel.

00:52:43.840 And one of the things I like to encourage young people is you either win or you learn.

00:52:49.900 In the story of Cain and Abel, so Cain makes sacrifices to God, and they're rejected.

00:52:57.260 And he gets angry in consequence.

00:53:00.240 And he goes to God to complain about the structure of the world.

00:53:05.160 And God says to him, you've got nothing to complain about.

00:53:10.080 If you did well, you'd be accepted.

00:53:12.480 And you think that you're bitter because you lost.

00:53:15.720 But you're bitter because you lost.

00:53:18.300 And you invited the spirit of resentment and bitterness to inhabit your heart.

00:53:23.240 That's why.

00:53:24.080 You didn't learn.

00:53:25.680 You didn't rectify your behavior.

00:53:27.740 You didn't change in the face of your loss.

00:53:30.220 You decided you'd get bitter exactly and improve.

00:53:33.460 Now, you did that famous speech.

00:53:35.440 I presume that was in the aftermath of one of these rivalries.

00:53:40.340 It wasn't a rivalry game.

00:53:41.960 Oh, it wasn't a rivalry.

00:53:42.600 No, but it was a shocking loss.

00:53:46.440 That was my junior year at the University of Florida.

00:53:48.960 And we lost to Ole Miss, a team that has so much respect for them.

00:53:53.620 But we just shouldn't have lost to them.

00:53:55.140 But I promise you one thing, a lot of good will come out of this.

00:53:59.120 You have never seen any player in the entire country play as hard as I will play the rest

00:54:03.580 of the season.

00:54:04.180 And you never see someone push the rest of the team as hard as I will push everybody

00:54:07.220 the rest of the season.

00:54:08.300 And you never see a team play harder than we will the rest of the season.

00:54:12.300 God bless.

00:54:12.820 After the game, I felt such shame and disappointment.

00:54:20.260 Not because we lost the game, Dr. Peterson, but because I knew it was my fault.

00:54:27.600 It was my fault as a leader.

00:54:29.700 It was my fault as a captain.

00:54:33.040 It was my fault in the way I played, in the focus.

00:54:37.200 What do you think you did wrong?

00:54:39.080 Or what did you think you did wrong?

00:54:40.560 So, I think that, you know, we throw around phrases like you're all in or being locked

00:54:48.280 in or focused or all these things.

00:54:50.060 And I think that there was a tiny bit, just a tiny bit that I thought today we could just

00:54:55.260 go through the motions a little bit.

00:54:57.080 Oh, yes.

00:54:57.480 A little bit of contempt for your opponents.

00:55:00.140 Rather than being all in.

00:55:02.240 And the whole time we thought, well, we'll still win.

00:55:05.180 We'll still win.

00:55:05.960 You know, we were behind and we come from behind.

00:55:07.840 And we're down a touchdown, but it's like, it's okay.

00:55:12.200 We're still good.

00:55:12.720 And we drive down the field.

00:55:13.800 We score a touchdown.

00:55:15.100 And then supposed to kick the extra point and tie the game.

00:55:18.320 They block the extra point.

00:55:19.920 But then our defense goes out there and does an unbelievable job.

00:55:22.540 Gets a three and out.

00:55:23.360 We get the ball back.

00:55:24.340 And we have a chance to score and win the game.

00:55:26.180 And it's a fourth and one.

00:55:28.220 And we call 96 Q Mickey, which is a Q power play.

00:55:33.600 It's a, I carry the ball.

00:55:35.300 It's downhill running.

00:55:36.900 And very few times, it would be like our identity play.

00:55:41.120 Very few times that I can remember.

00:55:44.120 I'm sure there's some times we got stopped on it, but very few in four years.

00:55:48.400 Very few.

00:55:48.960 If there was, I mean, if there was one play, you said, we are getting this.

00:55:54.040 It's, I'm running behind some of our best offensive linemen, the Pounceys and some amazing guys.

00:55:59.100 And I'm running right behind them.

00:56:00.300 And we're like, we get this.

00:56:01.740 This is what we do.

00:56:02.880 Like, this is what we train for.

00:56:04.980 And I get stopped and we lose.

00:56:09.820 And just the disappointment, the shame.

00:56:12.820 And it's not just because we lose.

00:56:14.660 It's how we lost.

00:56:15.520 Right, right, right.

00:56:16.140 And knowing that I should have done something different.

00:56:19.240 I could have done something different.

00:56:21.000 I just wasn't as focused or willing to as I should have been.

00:56:24.020 Right.

00:56:24.160 So that, is that a pride error?

00:56:26.020 Is that, because you said that.

00:56:27.420 I think it's a pride.

00:56:28.540 I think it's a lackadaisical.

00:56:30.020 I think it's a taking it for granted.

00:56:34.580 Yeah, yeah.

00:56:35.400 And after the game, I'm sitting in the locker for a while, probably over an hour.

00:56:40.220 And I have to go do the press conference, talk to the media, and I just don't know what

00:56:45.700 to say.

00:56:46.560 I just, I know that what I did was wrong.

00:56:50.140 I just really believe that.

00:56:51.380 Right.

00:56:51.600 Yeah.

00:56:51.840 Well, I watched the speech and, you know, you lay out the diagnosis, which is like a form

00:56:57.900 of confession, and then you describe your faults, which is the extension of the confession, and

00:57:03.780 then you proclaim your conviction that you will make better sacrifices and do better in

00:57:10.700 the future.

00:57:11.460 Obviously, that struck a chord with people.

00:57:13.400 But I think the reason for that is that it ties in with many of the things that we've

00:57:18.560 discussed.

00:57:19.140 I mean, one of the things you just pointed out that's crucially important is that you

00:57:23.020 can take these negative emotions that are associated with loss that could be crushing

00:57:28.500 and that are viewed by people who are anti-competitive as necessarily crushing.

00:57:32.720 You can take shame and guilt and disappointment and you can, and fear even, and you can transmute

00:57:39.940 those into motivational forces that can make you work harder in the future.

00:57:44.160 So, you know, when Christ is tempted by Peter, I think it's Peter, and he says to him, get

00:57:54.040 thee behind me, Satan.

00:57:55.760 And Peter, I believe it's Peter, has put forward a bunch of reasons that Christ might lose his

00:58:01.960 faith, for example, given the terrible obstacles that are in his path.

00:58:06.140 And the reason that I think that Christ says that, it's a very specific statement, which

00:58:11.560 is that you can take things that could stop you, and that would be all the negative emotions.

00:58:17.280 You can take those, and if you put them behind you, then they push you forward instead of

00:58:21.620 being in front of you, frightening you.

00:58:23.280 And we know this to some degree from animal experiments.

00:58:26.160 So here's an example.

00:58:27.860 It's a very basic example.

00:58:29.420 So imagine you have a hungry rat, and so he's down to three-quarters of his body weight,

00:58:36.940 so he's pretty motivated to work for food, typical situation with laboratory rats.

00:58:41.960 And you teach this rat how to run down a little runway to get some food, so he knows the food

00:58:47.380 is there.

00:58:47.900 And then you can clock how fast he'll run if you open the little gate, and he's hungry,

00:58:52.900 and he can run.

00:58:53.440 So now he's motivated by the desire to attain the goal, right?

00:58:56.540 So that's kind of like a competitive motivation.

00:58:58.840 So then you can clock how fast he'll run.

00:59:00.960 But then imagine that you do have the same rat in the same situation.

00:59:04.660 And when he's preparing to run down to get the cheese, you pipe a little bit of cat odor

00:59:12.040 into the air.

00:59:13.140 And rats, they hate cats.

00:59:14.760 Like from birth, it's innate.

00:59:17.120 They're terrified of cats.

00:59:18.900 They'll do anything to stay away from a cat.

00:59:20.860 And so now the rat smells a cat, and he's hungry, and he runs down that runway a hell of a lot

00:59:27.020 faster.

00:59:27.760 And it's because now the negative emotion that could stop him is motivating him to move

00:59:31.900 ahead.

00:59:32.540 And so this is another thing.

00:59:34.000 So you want to be resilient in the face of loss, and you have to learn that repeatedly by losing.

00:59:40.060 And you have to be socialized so you can do that with grace and not lose faith.

00:59:45.740 And so, but more than that, you have to learn to take that shame and guilt and so forth and

00:59:50.760 turn it into resolve.

00:59:52.060 And I don't think you can do that without competition and loss.

00:59:55.500 And I don't think you can do it without intense competition and loss that matters.

01:00:00.860 And then you can see, all you have to do is think this through.

01:00:04.000 As far as I'm concerned, is that, you know, you're going to face situations in your life

01:00:08.420 outside the playing field where your competitors are getting the best at you in your business,

01:00:13.440 or you're facing a terrible illness, or some bloody, awful, undeserved catastrophe comes

01:00:19.660 your way on the family side, and it takes you out.

01:00:23.900 And if you get desperate and you can't tolerate negative emotion, then you're going to get angry

01:00:28.680 and bitter, and you're going to collapse.

01:00:30.340 And alternatively, you could have learned to deal with defeat, like really deal with

01:00:36.480 it, to be grateful for it even, and to consider it an opportunity.

01:00:40.200 Great.

01:00:40.460 Well, I also believe that's even scripture too.

01:00:43.400 Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the

01:00:46.840 testing of your faith produces endurance and let endurance have its perfect work, that

01:00:50.500 you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

01:00:52.500 So we also get to consider it joy when we go through trials, knowing that it's building,

01:00:58.460 it's doing, it's working.

01:00:59.520 God's working in us and through us, that it's not just a negative, it is a growing.

01:01:04.480 Like we also think about when you want to get stronger, what do you do?

01:01:08.180 You literally tear down your muscles and they come back stronger.

01:01:10.560 There is also such a fear for us about discomfort.

01:01:17.160 We want to be comfortable.

01:01:18.420 We want to find areas of comfortable.

01:01:20.280 I want to work hard enough so we can have a retirement so that one day we can be comfortable,

01:01:24.300 right?

01:01:24.760 Yeah, yeah.

01:01:25.460 Terrible goal, by the way.

01:01:26.600 There's a terrible goal.

01:01:27.640 It really is.

01:01:28.440 It just kills people.

01:01:29.620 Because we seek comfort so much.

01:01:31.800 Well, that's what the story of Abraham is about too, because he has comfort to begin with.

01:01:35.860 And we have to fight that.

01:01:36.720 God says outside, go outside the zone of comfort continually and voluntarily.

01:01:41.320 Because when we seek comfort, I really believe that we miss so much of other purpose and meaning

01:01:47.560 and significance when we just seek comfort.

01:01:49.940 Yeah, well, there's a-

01:01:50.720 And growth.

01:01:51.280 There's a very deep analogy between seeking comfort and seeking unconsciousness and death.

01:01:58.080 I'll give you an example of that.

01:01:59.180 So in the story of Jonah, right, so God comes to Jonah and tells him that he has to speak

01:02:06.520 words of redemption to his enemies in a very dangerous way, which would be kind of what

01:02:10.820 your dad was doing, for example.

01:02:12.760 And Jonah, being a sensible person, thinks that sounds like not a very good idea at all.

01:02:18.940 And he makes tracks in the opposite direction, right?

01:02:22.740 And so he hops on a boat and heads for a city that's as far away from his enemies that

01:02:27.620 he's supposed to talk to as possible.

01:02:29.180 But the first thing he does on the boat is fall asleep.

01:02:32.980 And there's a meaning of that, you know, and the meaning is that if you shrink away from

01:02:38.520 your calling or your conscience, then really what happens is that you're seeking a form

01:02:45.160 of unconsciousness, which is like you're comfortable when you're asleep, but you're not there, right?

01:02:51.320 And then you might say, well, I only want to be awake during periods of joy.

01:02:55.600 I only want to experience happiness.

01:02:57.880 And you can understand that.

01:02:59.700 But then there's no developmental impetus in happiness, right?

01:03:04.260 It's developmental impetus is only in challenge and in adventure.

01:03:08.220 And so, and, you know, you said we seek comfort, but it's weird.

01:03:12.740 We think we seek comfort, but if you give people nothing but comfort, this was Dostoevsky's

01:03:19.400 great observation in Notes from Underground.

01:03:21.280 He said, if you gave people nothing but comfort, like Abraham, the first thing they would do

01:03:26.280 is get angry and bored about their comfort.

01:03:27.960 That's right.

01:03:28.160 They will not be satisfied.

01:03:29.340 Not at all.

01:03:29.780 No, and they'll break it and they'll seek false adventure because people aren't built

01:03:34.020 for comfort.

01:03:34.780 They're built for challenge.

01:03:36.540 And then there's one more observation about that.

01:03:38.680 You know, the oldest story we have likely is the dragon fight story.

01:03:43.320 It's really old, thousands of years.

01:03:45.940 And so the idea is a quest into the unknown to find the dragon that guards the treasure,

01:03:51.640 the voluntary confrontation with the dragon, and then the receipt of the treasure.

01:03:56.480 And so there's a core idea there, which is that there are treasures, but the treasures

01:04:04.700 are guarded and they're guarded by something terrible.

01:04:07.320 And so you could say, well, wherever there's a treasure, there's going to be a dragon.

01:04:12.760 But you can reverse that equally and you can say, wherever there's a dragon, there's going

01:04:18.360 to be a treasure.

01:04:20.020 And so now you walk through your life and some horrible dragon emerges, like you have an

01:04:24.540 old child, for example, or something arbitrary and terrible.

01:04:27.820 And you could be crushed by that and get bitter and resentful and no bloody wonder.

01:04:31.700 But you could also think, okay, dragon, there's got to be a treasure around here somewhere.

01:04:38.360 And that gives you a completely different stance on the problem, which is the stance of

01:04:43.120 a contender.

01:04:43.880 It's like, oh, we have a major league challenge here.

01:04:46.920 And that could force us to develop.

01:04:49.020 We know too, you know, there's psychophysiological studies that show this.

01:04:53.160 It's very, very cool.

01:04:54.540 So imagine you take two groups of people, right?

01:04:57.120 Random assignation to groups.

01:04:59.020 So there's no difference between the groups.

01:05:00.640 And one group you impose a challenge on involuntarily.

01:05:05.280 They have to do it.

01:05:06.840 Okay.

01:05:07.020 And the other group has a choice and they choose to do it.

01:05:09.720 Then you measure their physiological responses and their emotions.

01:05:14.060 They're completely different in the two groups.

01:05:16.200 The group that has to do it in an obligatory way, they turn into prey animals and they produce

01:05:23.360 a lot of stress hormones.

01:05:24.860 So now they're frozen and they have the spirit of a prey animal.

01:05:28.320 Okay.

01:05:28.660 But the people who do it voluntarily, they're, well, they're now a lot more like predators.

01:05:35.000 They're a lot more like it's voluntary and it's challenging.

01:05:38.220 And so the whole pattern of activation changes and this cascades all the way down to the genetic

01:05:45.400 level.

01:05:46.580 So if you take on a confrontation voluntarily, you turn on genes that wouldn't otherwise be

01:05:53.740 turned on and they code new proteins and build you really from the cells upward into a whole

01:05:58.400 different creature.

01:05:59.660 So this attitude towards challenge, which is developed if you are confronting competition,

01:06:07.480 that attitude towards challenge determines even the way you develop physically, much

01:06:13.960 less spiritually, emotionally.

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01:06:42.180 A single heartbeat can echo across generations.

01:06:44.880 I love that so much because it reminds me of one thing I love to say is we get the choice

01:06:49.160 of living a have to or a get to life.

01:06:51.720 Yeah, right.

01:06:52.180 Like even for sports that you could see certain teammates, people I play with or against their

01:06:58.740 joy might be taken at times because they would feel like, man, I have to go do this.

01:07:04.320 I have to get up early.

01:07:05.400 And you could see burnout versus those that, man, their mentality, even though it could get

01:07:09.820 hard and disappointing and frustrating and there's trials and tribulations, but I get

01:07:14.620 to do this.

01:07:15.180 Yeah, right.

01:07:15.340 There's a difference in, you know, in this faith journey.

01:07:20.520 It's not a have to, it's a get to.

01:07:23.100 Yeah, right.

01:07:23.480 And it totally changes the mindset.

01:07:25.980 It changes the joy in it.

01:07:27.560 The difference between, man, I have to go do this every day or I get to go do this.

01:07:31.600 Yeah, right.

01:07:31.980 I get to go do these things.

01:07:33.200 Well, that's the difference between gratitude and resentment, right?

01:07:35.400 So you could think, well, pride is a terrible sin.

01:07:39.040 It's a terrible missing of the mark and it makes people arrogant and self-centered and

01:07:44.340 bitter and incapable of learning.

01:07:49.060 So that's all pride.

01:07:50.300 And the religious practice that's the antithesis of that is humility.

01:07:55.160 And that's something like, no matter where I am and what I'm doing, I have a lot more

01:07:59.720 to learn and I'm grateful for the experience to learn.

01:08:03.380 And that might even be when I'm radically corrected and fail, right?

01:08:08.360 I want to be grateful for that because it's an opportunity.

01:08:11.220 And that's something you have to practice.

01:08:12.980 And then with regards to gratitude, it's the same thing.

01:08:19.700 It's like, I have this difficult enterprise in front of me and I can regard that as an

01:08:24.080 impediment and a rebuke.

01:08:26.860 Or I could say, well, I'm going to look for the way in which this is a remarkable opportunity

01:08:33.360 and I'm going to be grateful for that, right?

01:08:35.900 So that's a practice that makes you immune to resentment.

01:08:40.700 So to be immune to pride and resentment, that's the target of much genuine religious practice

01:08:47.780 so that you continue to learn and so that you don't become bitter.

01:08:51.220 And then that seems to produce this transformation that we already described, which is, you know,

01:08:56.780 it makes itself manifest psychologically, but it cascades all the way down to the cellular

01:09:01.240 level.

01:09:01.880 And that is a matter of attitude.

01:09:04.300 And so you said your parents were very good at that and that they had you.

01:09:07.800 Do you remember the scripture verses that they concentrated on having you?

01:09:11.680 Oh, so many.

01:09:13.080 The one I just mentioned, the greatest of mine could be a servant.

01:09:15.360 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled.

01:09:16.740 Whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

01:09:18.440 That was one of the first verses I had to memorize.

01:09:21.920 But then we started going through a lot of Proverbs that my dad really believes in Proverbs

01:09:31.700 and he would press it into us to the extent I'm so grateful.

01:09:36.880 Now randomly I'll be reading the Bible or I'll be with teammates or friends and we'll be looking

01:09:41.980 at it and I'll be like, I didn't memorize this.

01:09:44.240 And all of a sudden, because I had to memorize it to play games, even though I didn't want to,

01:09:48.440 I had to to play and I would be willing to do whatever it took to play.

01:09:51.820 And now I'll be like, wait a second.

01:09:53.360 I memorized this.

01:09:54.820 Yeah.

01:09:54.980 Like, it just, you know, the other day we were reading in Proverbs 5 or 6 and I'm sitting

01:10:01.240 there and I'm like, wait, I know so much of this because I had to memorize it.

01:10:04.680 You know, go to the end, O slugger, observe her ways and be wise, which having no chief

01:10:07.860 officer or ruler prepares her food in the summer and gathers her provision in the harvest.

01:10:11.680 How long will you lie down, O slugger?

01:10:13.180 A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding your hands to rest, and your poverty

01:10:15.820 will come in like a vagabond and your need like an armed man.

01:10:18.200 And you could keep going.

01:10:19.120 And I don't even remember.

01:10:20.460 Say that slowly.

01:10:21.900 Which part of it?

01:10:22.720 The whole thing.

01:10:24.520 Let's see.

01:10:25.580 Go to the end, O slugger, observe her ways and be wise, which having no chief officer

01:10:29.620 or ruler prepares her food in the summer and gathers her provision in the harvest.

01:10:33.600 How long will you lie down, O slugger?

01:10:35.340 A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding your hands to rest, and your poverty

01:10:38.780 will come in like a vagabond and your need like an armed man.

01:10:41.600 A worthless person, a wicked man, is one who walks with a false mouth, who winks with his

01:10:45.060 eyes, who signals his feet, who with perverse in his heart devises evil continually,

01:10:48.700 and one who spreads strife.

01:10:49.640 Therefore, his calamity will come suddenly, instantly, and there will be no healing.

01:10:55.120 There are six things that the Lord hates, yet seven are abomination to him.

01:10:58.240 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked

01:11:02.520 plans, feet that will unrapilated evil, a false witness who utters lies.

01:11:07.340 Okay.

01:11:07.960 So that's a very interesting...

01:11:10.100 I say that.

01:11:10.540 It's not because I wanted to memorize that.

01:11:12.820 It's because my parents kept putting that in my head over and over and over again, so

01:11:17.180 that specifically, you know, in this Proverbs, because my dad didn't want us to be lazy.

01:11:22.760 Yeah.

01:11:23.080 Go to the ant, O slugger.

01:11:24.280 Yeah.

01:11:24.500 Be for ways and be wise.

01:11:25.460 And then you get to closer to the end of the chapter, and you're saying, man, these are

01:11:28.860 the things that the Lord hates.

01:11:30.400 Yeah.

01:11:30.560 You know, and so there was such a plan, my parents, in putting these thoughts in our

01:11:36.800 head so that you would meditate on them, even though we didn't want to.

01:11:40.840 Yeah.

01:11:41.100 And so then, but eventually when it's in your head and it's in your heart, God can bring

01:11:44.780 it to your memory.

01:11:46.300 Yeah, well, that's what I'm...

01:11:47.260 Okay, so I'm curious about two things there.

01:11:49.260 So first of all, that's a very telling passage because...

01:11:52.700 So there's this subplot in the Old Testament where the Israelites, they escape their slavery

01:12:00.480 and they escape the Pharaoh, who's the tyrant.

01:12:02.620 So now they're a free people, right?

01:12:04.240 And they're trying to organize themselves.

01:12:06.120 And so they organize themselves in a responsible hierarchy.

01:12:09.960 This is following the suggestion of Jethro, who's Moses' father-in-law.

01:12:16.600 So the Israelites are trying to figure out what they do if they're not ruled by a tyrant.

01:12:20.440 And Jethro says, well, you divide yourself into groups of 10, you elect a representative,

01:12:25.620 you have the 10, erect another representative, elect another representative, all the way up

01:12:30.040 to the 10,000s.

01:12:31.040 And so he describes a hierarchy of responsibility as the alternative to tyranny and slavery, right?

01:12:38.980 And so, but what that means is that in that hierarchy, everybody has to act responsibly.

01:12:44.500 And then you don't need a king.

01:12:46.160 And so this proverb passage that you just described, zeroes in on that, says that if everyone

01:12:55.120 pulls their weight voluntarily, like the ant, and isn't a sluggard and isn't lazy and waiting

01:13:01.580 for someone else to do it, then there's no need for a tyrant and no one's a slave.

01:13:06.840 But more than that, in that responsibility is tremendous meaning and opportunity.

01:13:11.780 So you get to have your cake and eat it too.

01:13:13.720 You don't need a tyrant.

01:13:15.400 You don't need to be a slave.

01:13:16.920 But your life has meaning now because you're actually pulling a weight that's worthy of

01:13:21.440 your efforts, right?

01:13:22.980 So that's beautifully put.

01:13:24.260 So it's a very important lesson.

01:13:26.060 But now you were required to memorize that.

01:13:29.580 And so, and you said even to some degree against your intrinsic desires at that point.

01:13:36.860 Yeah, we don't want to do that all the time.

01:13:38.660 I just wanted to go play.

01:13:39.720 What do you think having memorized those things did for you?

01:13:44.800 Because you didn't necessarily understand what they meant to begin with.

01:13:48.820 Some of them, I think kids understand a lot more sometimes than we give them credit for.

01:13:53.020 You would know this better than anyone.

01:13:54.500 But I feel like there's parts of you taken.

01:13:56.300 But some of it, you don't take all of it, right?

01:13:58.340 Yeah, so it had some utility right away.

01:14:01.380 Absolutely, absolutely.

01:14:02.780 You know, if I treat someone a certain way that is wrong or mean or unkind, you know that

01:14:09.080 is, it's bad.

01:14:10.880 I missed the mark on it.

01:14:12.120 Like you don't, like kids know the difference between right and wrong in a lot of ways that

01:14:17.200 I think we have to sometimes feel like we teach them, but they know that.

01:14:20.220 Yeah, yeah.

01:14:20.680 You know that bullying is wrong.

01:14:23.160 Like at a very young age, you know that.

01:14:24.760 Yeah, yeah.

01:14:25.260 You know being mean.

01:14:26.120 You know pushing someone is wrong.

01:14:28.340 But then there's other things that you constantly work through or think about.

01:14:35.120 Or in meditation, you would think it would one day click.

01:14:38.700 But that was one of my parents' hopes is that there would be the scripture put in your head

01:14:43.960 and put in your heart.

01:14:44.960 Yeah.

01:14:45.120 Whether you wanted to or not, it was irrelevant.

01:14:47.700 You were going to memorize it if you wanted to play on the weekend.

01:14:50.560 How much did you memorize?

01:14:51.440 We would have to memorize before most games for a long time.

01:14:57.000 And sometimes we did not always like it.

01:15:00.460 We did not always want to.

01:15:01.560 But it really made an impact to where now I'll be reading and I'll be like, oh, I remember that.

01:15:07.700 I remember I had to memorize that.

01:15:09.040 I'm so grateful to my parents.

01:15:11.560 So, so like beyond grateful because I'm like, sometimes those different scripture will pop in my heart.

01:15:20.860 Or I would be playing a game and let another praise you and not your own mouth is stranger and not your own lips.

01:15:26.760 Oh my gosh.

01:15:27.860 You know?

01:15:28.400 And there would be so.

01:15:29.080 That's a good one.

01:15:29.640 Yeah, that's a good one.

01:15:30.480 And there would be so much of scripture that would pop in my head and my heart.

01:15:35.560 Less so after wins, even more so after losses.

01:15:40.120 And I could, and so many times I would also hear my mom's voice in my head.

01:15:46.040 Because my mom would also put scripture to tune and sing to us as we would go to sleep.

01:15:51.000 Right, right.

01:15:51.500 So that's a real aid to memory.

01:15:53.860 My mom would always say what's put in tune or what's put in tune is remember long or something.

01:16:00.260 Yeah, yeah, definitely.

01:16:01.300 What's put in song is remember long.

01:16:02.640 A lot of the Bible was poetry set to music for that reason.

01:16:05.040 Much more memorable that way.

01:16:06.800 Yeah.

01:16:07.240 I mean, one of the things I realized about my kids, you know, I didn't take them to church when they were a kid, when they were kids.

01:16:13.380 And like we had a very philosophically structured household, let's say, and they learned to aim up.

01:16:19.400 But they didn't get this memory training that you just described.

01:16:23.440 And they don't know the biblical stories as well as they should have.

01:16:26.620 And so there's some real advantage to that repetition that's effortful because it provides you, it gives you these things at hand.

01:16:35.000 It gives you something to focus and think about in times of trouble.

01:16:38.360 It's a tool.

01:16:39.120 Yeah.

01:16:39.380 It's a tool in that moment.

01:16:40.660 And it's a truth in that moment that I can rely on.

01:16:44.540 It's, I get to remember my worth wasn't dependent on this game.

01:16:48.140 My value is not dependent on this game.

01:16:49.860 Yeah.

01:16:50.120 That in the highs when everybody is saying, oh, congratulations, Timmy.

01:16:53.940 Yeah.

01:16:54.540 That doesn't change my worth.

01:16:55.800 But in the lows when everybody is saying, Tebow, you suck.

01:16:58.900 Yeah.

01:16:59.380 It also doesn't change my worth.

01:17:01.240 Yeah.

01:17:01.440 Like my identity.

01:17:03.460 That's right.

01:17:03.720 So your eyes are set on something above the game.

01:17:05.940 Trying, trying to.

01:17:07.040 Trying to.

01:17:07.620 Trying to.

01:17:08.100 Yeah.

01:17:08.200 You know, which is very hard.

01:17:09.620 Yeah.

01:17:10.800 I remember at the University of Florida, it started out, we were doing really well my freshman year.

01:17:17.660 I was getting to play.

01:17:18.520 We were being successful.

01:17:20.240 And one of my favorite parts was the gator walk.

01:17:22.680 You would drive the bus up there and you'd get out and you'd walk and there'd be thousands of fans cheering for you.

01:17:27.540 And as you'd walk through, it's awesome way to get ready for a game.

01:17:29.880 Like all these people are going crazy as you walk into the stadium.

01:17:34.100 But one of the things that started to happen to me was I would have all of these thoughts.

01:17:41.720 I would even say like voices, like walking in.

01:17:44.480 I would hear, I'd see people wearing my jersey and I would have these thoughts of arrogance.

01:17:51.820 Like, man, like you are somebody now.

01:17:54.740 Yeah, right.

01:17:55.240 And then you'd keep walking and a mom or dad would say, hey, Timmy, just want you to know you're our son's role model.

01:18:02.540 Right.

01:18:02.780 Or you're our daughter's role model.

01:18:04.200 And then I would have these other voices, these other thoughts.

01:18:08.640 And really a shame of, no, not if you knew me on my worst day.

01:18:12.720 I wouldn't be their role model.

01:18:14.800 Not if you knew my worst words, my worst actions, my worst thoughts.

01:18:18.080 I wouldn't be their role model.

01:18:18.920 That's the shadow side of that arrogance.

01:18:20.600 Yes, it is.

01:18:21.060 You pay on both sides, right?

01:18:22.440 You get self-aggrandized, but you're brought low at the same time.

01:18:25.520 That's right.

01:18:26.140 Because you can see where you're not what you're being worshipped for and that's shameful.

01:18:32.240 And how much you've missed the mark.

01:18:33.400 Yeah, yeah.

01:18:33.760 And then you'd have thoughts of other teams and anger and pride.

01:18:37.540 And then there always be near the end, always the cameras as you'd walk into a stadium, right?

01:18:41.260 And even though they're not supposed to be there, and they'd ask you these macro questions.

01:18:46.940 Are you ready for the day?

01:18:47.880 Are you ready for the world?

01:18:48.860 Whatever, you know, these big.

01:18:50.460 And you would think, man, in the next three hours, I'm going to be viewed and evaluated by most of the country.

01:18:57.960 And it'll either be way too many people praising me for something I don't deserve or a whole lot of criticism.

01:19:04.920 Right, right, right.

01:19:05.620 And you would have a feeling like, I'm not enough.

01:19:08.880 I'm not prepared for that.

01:19:10.400 I don't want to handle, nor do I like that.

01:19:13.740 Yeah.

01:19:14.140 And I started with the old iPod thing, iPad, iPod thing, the old back in the day.

01:19:20.520 Yeah.

01:19:20.800 And I started putting on a song every time I'd get off the bus by a group called Casting Crowns, a song called The Voice of Truth.

01:19:28.240 And as I would get ready to walk through the Gator Walk, I would hit play on The Voice of Truth.

01:19:34.180 And it would say to the extent of, The Voice of Truth tells me a different story.

01:19:38.700 The Voice of Truth says, Do not be afraid.

01:19:41.400 The Voice of Truth says, This is for my glory.

01:19:43.800 Out of all the voices calling out to me, I will choose to listen and believe The Voice of Truth.

01:19:49.240 Right, right.

01:19:49.840 The Voice of Truth that I'm not defined by this game, good or bad.

01:19:53.060 The Voice of Truth that I'm not defined by my sin.

01:19:56.760 I'm not defined by my scars.

01:19:58.240 I'm defined by His scars.

01:19:59.940 The Voice of Truth says, You know, this is just a game.

01:20:03.640 You can compete.

01:20:05.520 The Voice of Truth says, You know, all of these things.

01:20:08.760 And I'll make a list of God's promises and the truth so that when all of these things are calling out to me,

01:20:14.000 and I'll fail at a lot of them, I get to go back and remember the Voice of Truth.

01:20:18.400 That I'm not defined by this game.

01:20:19.660 That I was created in love, by love, and for love.

01:20:21.880 That God has a purpose and a plan.

01:20:23.400 That's not just something we put on bumper stickers as a catchphrase.

01:20:26.420 But that I'm fearfully and wonderfully made.

01:20:28.140 And you would go over all of these truths so you could remember that this doesn't get to define me.

01:20:33.420 It's not earned or right or the ability to define me.

01:20:36.600 King Jesus did that on the cross.

01:20:39.180 That's what I'm defined.

01:20:40.700 That's where I get to listen to the Voice of Truth.

01:20:43.540 And it's so hard in life because we let so many things define us.

01:20:49.060 And I feel like for me, I probably do that more than most because I'm naturally a people pleaser.

01:20:54.520 I am a baby of five.

01:20:56.560 I just, I always wanted my parents and my siblings to like me.

01:20:59.820 I want people to like me.

01:21:01.240 I would always be so like, my dad, he's just this courage.

01:21:05.120 I would be like, it's crazy.

01:21:06.500 But so many people disliked him for it.

01:21:08.420 And I remember early on at Florida, I was getting criticized by a lot of people.

01:21:13.960 At least it was a lot to me.

01:21:15.340 And I was reading a book, a lot about Winston Churchill.

01:21:19.780 And he had a quote in there where he said, if you have enemies, good.

01:21:24.300 It means you stood for something at least once in your life.

01:21:27.220 And I thought, what?

01:21:28.300 How could it be good to have enemies?

01:21:29.920 Like that didn't make sense to me.

01:21:31.200 But you see, one of the things he understood in that moment was sometimes other people might

01:21:36.860 not get it at the moment.

01:21:38.720 They might not.

01:21:40.040 But he cared more about doing what was right and living by his convictions and standing for

01:21:44.660 what he believed was right than giving in so that he would be liked.

01:21:48.420 And now you look at how people talk or the reverence or the honor they talk about Winston

01:21:52.860 Churchill.

01:21:53.900 And that was so convicting.

01:21:56.080 And multiple things were convicting to me where it was trying to make the choice.

01:22:00.560 Okay, am I going to choose?

01:22:02.420 Am I going to strive to choose my convictions or strive to choose what's right over strive

01:22:07.280 to be liked?

01:22:08.820 And it's still something I battle, but it's I work on daily because I need to, because

01:22:13.920 I know that's an area where I fall short.

01:22:17.720 I think we're going to draw this part of the conversation to a close, although there's

01:22:23.780 many other things I would like to talk to you about for the broad public.

01:22:28.060 I think what we're going to do for everybody who's watching and listening is on the Daily

01:22:32.040 Wire side, I would like to talk to you about the applications of what you've learned to

01:22:37.460 the building of this charitable organization and how you manage your team and what you've

01:22:42.560 accomplished and what your goals are.

01:22:44.500 And so we can easily flesh out a half an hour discussion with that.

01:22:48.020 But I think that made a nice piece and that was a very good ending.

01:22:51.560 So this is a good time to bring this to a close.

01:22:54.120 And so for all of you watching and listening, give some thought to joining us on the Daily

01:22:58.440 Wire side.

01:22:59.600 There'll be a practical evaluation, although much of this was practical, with regards to

01:23:05.660 how you set up an organization so that you can do far more than you could do alone.

01:23:10.680 And how you pick people and how you evaluate them and how you encourage them and what your

01:23:15.860 goals should be.

01:23:17.760 Tim has put together a stellar organization that's helping people all over the world.

01:23:21.760 And that's a very complicated thing to do, help people.

01:23:24.720 And especially to do that without also falling into the pit of self-aggrandizement with all

01:23:30.980 that false display or all that display of false charity.

01:23:34.420 And so we'll just delve into that for half an hour.

01:23:37.940 Join us on the Daily Wire side.

01:23:39.220 Thank you very much.

01:23:40.460 That went by like instantly.

01:23:42.460 And I appreciate it.

01:23:43.820 I think it was an extremely useful discussion on the relationship between competition and

01:23:49.160 attitude and resilience, which is something that everybody needs to hear in this world

01:23:53.960 where competitiveness and masculinity for that matter is demonized to a degree that's

01:23:59.560 almost incomprehensible.

01:24:01.120 Extremely demoralizing for young men and for women as well.

01:24:05.400 So it's very useful to have sorted that out.

01:24:07.600 Great to meet you.

01:24:08.280 Appreciate you, my friend.

01:24:09.240 Thank you.

01:24:09.880 You bet, man.

01:24:10.680 Yeah.

01:24:10.840 And thanks to the film crew here in Pensac...

01:24:13.560 Where the hell are we?

01:24:14.840 Jacksonville.

01:24:15.500 Jacksonville.

01:24:16.060 Yeah, yeah.

01:24:17.140 Jacksonville, Florida.

01:24:19.540 I much appreciate you guys helping us out, making sure we got this right.

01:24:23.380 And shout out to Joy Hom, too, my producer, who's been stellar at making sure that we can

01:24:30.020 do these things.

01:24:30.600 And to the Daily Wire for the support so that we can bring these discussions to everyone.

01:24:34.720 Thanks again, sir.

01:24:35.640 Thank you, brother.

01:24:36.520 Yep.

01:24:36.800 Yep.

01:24:36.880 Thank you.

540. Masculinity Saves the Weak ｜ Tim Tebow

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