The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

00:00:00.000 The billions of dollars that went into Gaza were largely used by Hamas leaders to enrich themselves,

00:00:05.220 to build an incredibly elaborate terrorist infrastructure throughout Gaza.

00:00:08.960 The misconception was Hamas' leadership were happy with just being corrupt.

00:00:14.160 The terrible hand of Iran is behind Hamas and Hezbollah.

00:00:17.780 Iran has absolutely no compunctions about sacrificing every single Palestinian to the cause.

00:00:22.900 What possible response could Israel have except to roll over and what, submit?

00:00:27.360 That's not an option.

00:00:28.680 An army that fights by the laws of war, which the IDF does,

00:00:34.120 this civilized army seeks to minimize the civilian casualties.

00:00:38.860 When an army like that encounters an army that not just desires death for its enemy,

00:00:44.320 but desires death for the people it purports to govern,

00:00:47.960 this thing of the ecstasy in bringing death,

00:00:52.000 it's a death cult, a cult that literally worships death.

00:00:58.680 Hey, everybody.

00:01:11.640 So I'm talking today to Douglas Murray, who just wrote this book on democracies and death cults,

00:01:19.360 Israel and the future of civilization.

00:01:22.020 That's this.

00:01:24.360 We basically walk through the book chapter by chapter.

00:01:27.380 It's a relatively short book, although it doesn't lack in intensity.

00:01:31.360 What happened October 7th when Hamas invaded Israel?

00:01:37.320 What I saw, Douglas's account of his sojourn through Israel in the aftermath of the catastrophe.

00:01:42.780 How the world turned.

00:01:45.180 We discussed the protests primarily originating on university campuses, much to their eternal shame.

00:01:52.520 The disconnect.

00:01:53.980 The fact that the propaganda exercise and what would you say,

00:01:59.140 the zeitgeist of the West was such so that Israel was demonized almost immediately after the attack for daring to defend itself.

00:02:07.660 And then Douglas's conclusion from defeat into victory.

00:02:11.720 Well, that's where the conversation got a little bit more theological, possibly.

00:02:18.820 An inevitability when talking about the existence of good and evil.

00:02:22.420 Well, we discussed Douglas's observations that the Israelis have been very successful at pushing forward a truly pro-life, pro-abundance ethos.

00:02:34.540 And the consequence for their thriving, for their resilience in the face of really insuperable opposition.

00:02:40.640 And the meaning of that for hope, not only in Israel, but in the West in general.

00:02:46.980 And a hope we most desperately need in these strangest of all times.

00:02:51.460 Join us for that.

00:02:54.080 So, Mr. Murray, I read your book on democracies and death cults, Israel and the Future of Civilization.

00:03:03.560 Yeah, it's a pretty rough read in like five different dimensions.

00:03:08.260 It's brutal and unnerving and like terribly relevant and not merely, merely because of the situation in Israel.

00:03:20.060 So, I think what we should do first is, I'm going to ask you questions about each chapter.

00:03:24.940 It's a short book.

00:03:25.740 There's five chapters.

00:03:26.920 It starts with what happened.

00:03:28.920 And there's questions everyone has.

00:03:32.420 How did the Israeli security forces miss this?

00:03:35.560 How could something like this happen?

00:03:37.300 What did happen?

00:03:38.620 Who was responsible?

00:03:40.060 So, let's start by laying that out.

00:03:42.480 What happened on October 7th?

00:03:44.180 What happened was that about 4,000 or more terrorists invaded Israel in the early morning.

00:03:52.200 The Hamas Islamic Jihad and other jihadist groups in Gaza started firing hundreds and hundreds of rockets at about 6.30 in the morning.

00:04:00.600 Almost exactly 6.30 in the morning.

00:04:03.140 So, air raid sirens went off across the country.

00:04:06.520 But then something, and sadly, that's kind of usual in Israel.

00:04:11.000 It's quite common to have air raid sirens, particularly in the South, has been for 20 years.

00:04:15.940 And what became clear was very unusual was that across multiple parts of the Gaza-Israel border, thousands of terrorists broke in.

00:04:28.060 They broke down the fences.

00:04:29.300 They broke down.

00:04:30.060 They went to the checkpoints where Gazan workers would come through each day and where aid lorries and, indeed, commerce occurred.

00:04:38.260 They went to those crossings as well, attacked the soldiers, overwhelmed them in quite a lot of places.

00:04:44.400 It was a religious holiday.

00:04:46.200 It's the holiday of Simchat Torah.

00:04:48.520 And so a lot of people were at home with their families.

00:04:51.920 It was 50 years to the day since the Yom Kippur War when Israel's Arab neighbors invaded in a surprise attack as well.

00:05:02.200 So you might say, well, how come it's a surprise?

00:05:05.980 That was one of the things, as soon as I got to Israel straight after the Seventh, one of the things I was trying to find out was what the hell went wrong.

00:05:15.280 Because the Israelis have always had, certainly since 1973, a sort of invulnerability.

00:05:21.940 It's not true, of course, but they were seen to be invulnerable by many of their neighbors.

00:05:28.000 Impossible to catch by surprise.

00:05:29.700 Impossible to catch by surprise.

00:05:32.000 It's what I call the fowderization of Israel, the sort of idea that it's eyes in the sky everywhere, nothing that can be done that could surprise them.

00:05:40.700 And that wasn't the case.

00:05:42.920 Massive amounts of the security apparatus of Israel failed.

00:05:47.500 Hamas were also very, very clever.

00:05:49.700 They'd done a lot of reconnaissance using, sadly, Gazan workers in Israel to do the reconnaissance, it has to be said, in the months and years ahead of the Seventh.

00:05:57.760 They knew how to take down things like communications.

00:06:02.200 They knew how to take down the security apparatus at the border.

00:06:07.920 And by the time that hundreds and then thousands of people were flooding into Israel, invading, they were going community by community through the South, village by village.

00:06:19.820 They're called kibbutz.

00:06:21.180 They're small communities of sometimes a few hundred, sometimes a thousand people.

00:06:25.480 And these were peaceful communities, farming communities.

00:06:31.820 And they started to go house by house through these communities, massacring the people inside, kidnapping as well.

00:06:40.460 They came across, of course, because they managed to do the invasion, not just by land, but by sea and also by air in hand gliders.

00:06:49.900 They managed to come into the dance party, the Nova party, where thousands of young people were dancing in the early morning.

00:06:59.080 And there's a debate about whether or not the terrorists knew that they were going to get this really easy pickings of unarmed young people dancing in the morning.

00:07:09.840 But whether it was luck or design, they managed to get to the party and came in on military jeeps and trucks and motorcycles and started massacring their way through the young people in the early hours of the morning.

00:07:25.940 There were a lot of questions I asked about what went wrong on the Israeli side.

00:07:32.080 There's a lot to find out about and some of the answers I think I've come to.

00:07:35.460 But although many people in their homes who I spoke to in the hospitals and in the communities in the aftermath of the Seventh said the same thing to me.

00:07:45.940 The thing they said was they told their children as they were hiding in the bomb shelters, as their homes were on fire and they could hear people at the door trying to break in.

00:07:56.020 They said that they told their children, you know, don't worry, the army will be here in moments.

00:08:01.500 And it wasn't.

00:08:03.480 But it didn't fail entirely.

00:08:05.460 There were some army in the area who put up a very good fight.

00:08:10.040 And some of the army managed to get down fast.

00:08:12.860 Some elite units managed to get to the south swiftly and had very, very intense firefights.

00:08:18.780 But one of the other things that happened was that there were a lot of people who I described, Arab, Druze, Jews, Israelis, who were what I call self-starters, just people who realized that everything was going wrong.

00:08:33.380 The country had been invaded.

00:08:34.660 It was war and who threw some extraordinary metal or insight or whatever.

00:08:41.920 Sometimes just information, somebody who happened to know somebody who happened to know somebody in one of the communities in the south who was saying, you know, we're on fire, would just hurtle to the scene and save lives.

00:08:54.720 And that's why I say that the Mourning of the 7th was a story of catastrophic evil from Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

00:09:06.060 And indeed, the Gazan civilians who came in to join in the raping and the stealing and the kidnapping.

00:09:13.320 By the end of the day, 1,200 Israelis were dead, many, many more injured, and 250 taken hostage into Gaza.

00:09:22.820 By proportion of population, if people extrapolate that out to America, it would be about 44,000 Americans killed in one day.

00:09:33.400 Well, and the hostage situation is also...

00:09:35.420 And 10,000 Americans taken hostage.

00:09:38.260 Right.

00:09:38.540 That's by proportion of population, if you extrapolate it out, it would be 10,000 Americans being dragged out of their homes and taken into enemy territory by terrorists.

00:09:51.820 But the story was, first of all, of the evils that Hamas committed that day, secondly, and the suffering that they imposed.

00:10:01.760 Secondly, of course, the failure of much of the security apparatus in Israel, from which lessons will have to be learned, and not just by Israel, but by her allies.

00:10:11.720 But thirdly, as I say, it's also the story of extraordinary people rising to this terrible moment and doing unbelievably heroic things.

00:10:20.420 I tell a lot of the stories of people, for instance, there's somebody who's become a friend called Nimrod, who hurtled south in his car.

00:10:29.640 He had been in the army, was called back to base by his commander, but by that point, Nimrod was driving south, and he managed to pick up a gun on the way, a single revolver with, I think, eight rounds of ammunition.

00:10:43.000 Went through every military checkpoint and just...

00:10:45.660 He said he didn't see a live Israeli till the early afternoon.

00:10:49.440 But when he did, he fought and killed many terrorists.

00:10:55.480 There are other people, like there was a young man at the party, I mentioned in the book, whose girlfriend I met, who had realized the situation, managed to get a car out of the party.

00:11:05.020 The terrorists were massacring everyone as they came out by car.

00:11:09.720 So they were shooting at the car, so then there was a logjam, but this young man managed to find a way out on another route.

00:11:16.620 And he took four or five young people in the car, drove them 30 minutes, dropped them off, came back, took another car full of young people, drove again, took them back.

00:11:27.360 Every time they said to him, don't go back again, it's hell, it's death.

00:11:31.640 But he kept doing it.

00:11:32.660 And then the last time he did it, he was killed.

00:11:36.580 But there are lots of terrible stories from the day that I recount.

00:11:43.400 But as I say, it also seems to me to be important to credit the people who survived and who didn't, who showed unbelievable heroism.

00:11:51.500 It didn't really surprise me, I suppose, that there were security lapses.

00:11:59.080 I mean, if you're dealing with an enemy that's absolutely committed, the probability that over some long span of time, they're going to find a way through your defenses.

00:12:09.980 Yeah.

00:12:10.500 How is that not 100% if everything isn't locked down and there's any semblance of freedom whatsoever?

00:12:17.580 Yeah.

00:12:17.780 So the explanation you offered about the, what, the mythical status of Israeli invulnerability seems to me to be the most effective explanation.

00:12:27.700 That and one other thing, which is, which was what was known as the conception, which I spoke about with military and other political leaders.

00:12:34.680 It's a very interesting thing, this.

00:12:36.300 The conception was effectively, well, it was obviously a terrible mistake, but was a belief in some of the security structure, infrastructure in Israel.

00:12:47.780 That Hamas were effectively like so many terrorists and radical movements throughout history, that they had been misgoverning the Gaza effectively since Israel withdrew in 2005, but they'd stolen billions of dollars of international aid.

00:13:05.000 Yeah.

00:13:05.260 All the leaders of Hamas were billionaires, thanks to the Canadian, American, European, British taxpayers.

00:13:11.340 Well done for us, seriously.

00:13:12.820 Well done for us.

00:13:13.620 Yeah, that's for sure.

00:13:14.560 Great use of our taxpayer.

00:13:14.940 Really, really quite something.

00:13:16.500 Taxpayer funds.

00:13:17.640 The billions of dollars that went into Gaza were largely used by Hamas leaders to enrich themselves, to build an incredibly elaborate terrorist infrastructure throughout Gaza.

00:13:26.820 Miles and miles of underground tunnels.

00:13:29.280 Very, very elaborate systems.

00:13:30.340 Some effectively crawl spaces, others large enough to drive military vehicles from one end of Gaza to the other.

00:13:38.480 And they built that whole infrastructure over the 18 years or so that they governed Gaza.

00:13:45.340 And that was the other way in which they used their money.

00:13:47.680 But the conception, which turned out to be a misconception, was that part of the security apparatus in Israel believed that Hamas' leadership were happy with just being corrupt.

00:13:59.680 They were living in luxury, you know, penthouses.

00:14:03.800 Corrupt was sufficient malevolence.

00:14:05.380 Corrupt was sufficient.

00:14:05.920 Rather like the Soviet Union by the 80s.

00:14:08.420 You know, the leaders didn't believe it anymore.

00:14:10.280 They just wanted to drink and have whatever they could in the time they had.

00:14:15.540 Right.

00:14:15.980 And...

00:14:16.700 Hedonistic materialism trumps fanatical malevolence.

00:14:19.680 Exactly.

00:14:20.220 Fanatical malevolence.

00:14:21.160 And of course...

00:14:21.840 That's quite the theory.

00:14:22.640 Yeah.

00:14:22.960 And many times in history that has turned out to be true.

00:14:25.520 A lot of revolutionary movements have done that.

00:14:29.000 But this turned out to be completely wrong in the case of the Hamas' leadership.

00:14:35.340 They wanted to enrich themselves and they wanted to do what they said they were going to do, which was to annihilate the Jews.

00:14:44.620 And if you look...

00:14:45.820 Why not have both?

00:14:46.980 They managed to try to have both.

00:14:50.940 But if you look at, for instance, one of the central figures of the book, Sinwar, Yachiyah Sinwar, one of the leaders of Hamas who'd been in an Israeli jail until 2011 for killing Palestinians with his own hands, literally throttling them with his own hands and with a kefir.

00:15:07.600 And he was the one who had such a remarkable obituary in the New York Times, if I remember correctly.

00:15:12.500 One of many.

00:15:14.100 Yeah.

00:15:15.500 Yachiyah Sinwar was a true psychopath.

00:15:17.900 And I'd known about him for years.

00:15:21.880 A lot of people who studied the region had.

00:15:23.960 He was a...

00:15:25.900 What would have been called a true believer.

00:15:29.800 After he'd been released in a prisoner exchange for one Israeli soldier who they'd kidnapped in the late 2000s,

00:15:35.900 after Sinwar was exchanged, and by the way, having had his life saved by an Israeli doctor in prison,

00:15:44.340 Sinwar went back to Gaza, seized back control of Hamas, said repeatedly in public statements that he wanted Hamas to go into Israel and tear the hearts out of the bodies of the Jews.

00:15:58.400 On the 7th, he took his best shot at it.

00:16:02.720 And it turned out that what Sinwar said he wanted to do, he did.

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00:17:26.160 He did.

00:17:27.160 It's very common for people who are extremely malevolent to tell you exactly what they're going to do and then do it.

00:17:33.020 Yes.

00:17:33.220 Far more common than people think.

00:17:34.860 And the fact that people are blind to that, that reality, points to something that we'll have to discuss in more detail.

00:17:42.580 This insistence by naive people in the West that no such thing as malevolence exists, right?

00:17:48.100 All perpetrators are victims until proven otherwise.

00:17:51.600 Victims we haven't understood yet.

00:17:54.280 They may have had a bad childhood.

00:17:56.700 Well, no doubt they did.

00:17:58.240 But there's plenty of people who have had bad childhoods who don't turn into malevolent psychopaths.

00:18:03.080 That's my observation.

00:18:04.420 Yes, it's definitely the case.

00:18:06.240 Let's delve a little bit deeper into what happened.

00:18:08.540 I want to lay some propositions before you.

00:18:10.780 When October 7th made its presence known, the first thing that occurred to me, and correct me if I'm wrong about this, if I have some misapprehension.

00:18:28.460 The terrible hand of Iran is behind Hamas and Hezbollah.

00:18:34.460 Iran has absolutely no compunctions about sacrificing every single Palestinian to the cause.

00:18:39.740 In as brutal a fashion as possible to capitalize on the public relations scandal that can be made of that.

00:18:46.620 They've got no feeling whatsoever for the Palestinians.

00:18:49.720 They're pure cannon fodder in the eternal war against the great Satan and Israel, right?

00:18:54.920 The U.S. and Israel.

00:18:56.080 That seems appropriate?

00:18:58.060 Absolutely.

00:18:58.360 Okay, so what the hell?

00:19:00.780 I went to Oxford, you know, and the first bloody thing that those halfwits asked me when I was on stage was if I was happy about this tweet I made on October 8th, which was,

00:19:10.320 Give them hell, Netanyahu, which I paid quite the price for, let me tell you.

00:19:14.580 And although not so much a price as many people have paid, put it that way.

00:19:20.480 And so, what's Israel to do when they're faced with a disposable people, so to speak, that will be sacrificed at a moment's notice by their own leadership, by their own corrupt philosophy, and by the mullahs of Iran?

00:19:35.960 What possible response could Israel have, except to roll over and, what, submit?

00:19:42.980 Well, a lot of people would like them to do that, of course, but that's not an option.

00:19:47.240 There's a famous story that Joe Biden tells.

00:19:50.180 It's actually a good story for Joe Biden.

00:19:52.240 Being Joe Biden, he's told it a lot.

00:19:54.400 But he, when he was a young senator, he once met Golda Meir, a former prime minister of Israel, indeed the prime minister during the 73 war.

00:20:02.620 And she famously said to Joe Biden, when she was showing him around, you know, you forget, Senator Biden, we have a secret weapon.

00:20:10.600 And Biden thought that Golda Meir was going to tell him about Israel's nuclear project.

00:20:16.740 And he was all ears.

00:20:19.080 And he said, what's your secret weapon?

00:20:20.680 She said, we have nowhere else to go.

00:20:24.040 So, anyone who thinks that rolling over is a possibility for Israel is simply somebody who wants them to be gone.

00:20:32.620 So, what is clever about Hamas and its backers in Iran, the Iranian revolutionary government, is that they know exactly how to put Israel in an even more intolerable situation each time they attack.

00:20:49.240 So, for instance, they know that if you kidnap Israelis, one of the absolutely central things of the fabric of Israeli society, as with most Western societies, is you don't allow your citizens to remain behind, just like you don't leave your soldiers behind.

00:21:09.240 That if you fall behind enemy lines, if you are taken behind enemy lines, the state will do everything it can to get you back.

00:21:19.140 And that has been a compact in Israel since the foundation in 48 and a really central thing.

00:21:25.180 So, Hamas knew, and I have lots of testimony from people who, for instance, overheard terrorists on the morning as they were lying dead or other things, heard the terrorists at, for instance, the Nova Party debating which of the young girls they should shoot and which they should kidnap.

00:21:43.120 And, you know, there were debates that they might have had too many people, too many girls to take back, for instance.

00:21:50.440 But Hamas did the kidnapping knowing that to have 250 Israelis in captivity is to have an unbelievable advantage over the Israelis because they're going to have to come in.

00:22:03.980 They're going to try to save them.

00:22:05.880 They're going to try to rescue them.

00:22:07.520 They'll exchange hundreds of terrorists for single Israelis.

00:22:12.040 As happened recently, an exchange of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails for committing acts of terrorism, preparing suicide vests, trying to carry out bombings and much more, knife attacks.

00:22:27.200 They will exchange sometimes hundreds of those Palestinians for, as happened the other week, the coffins of two Jewish babies.

00:22:37.520 Well, one of the things that's striking about your book is your continued explication of the Hamas and Hezbollah terrorists, psychopaths, their willingness to exploit every element of human decency to wage the most destructive possible of wars.

00:22:59.040 Yes.

00:22:59.180 Right?

00:22:59.720 So the tunnels, let's go into that for a minute.

00:23:02.260 So Gaza is 11 by 11 miles, approximately 140 square miles, 350 miles of tunnels, right?

00:23:10.840 Longer than the London Underground, which is a stunning fact.

00:23:17.040 Stunning fact.

00:23:17.640 Longer than London Underground, and as I joked to the British military friend, rather better run.

00:23:23.420 6,000 entrances, many of them in the bedrooms of children.

00:23:28.040 Oh, almost always where the tunnel entrances come up, they come up in children's bedrooms, in houses throughout Gaza.

00:23:36.420 They come up inside mosques.

00:23:38.540 They come up inside hospitals.

00:23:41.240 Even in 2014, the BBC acknowledged that the Hamas leadership were coming up from tunnels underneath the Shifa Hospital, which is one of their command headquarters.

00:23:50.700 By the way, all of that is, for anyone who cares about this, completely against every law of war.

00:23:58.340 The Geneva Conventions, every convention of war is you are not allowed to fight.

00:24:04.040 You're not meant to fight in civilian clothing.

00:24:07.600 You're not meant to fight and fire from places of worship.

00:24:12.040 You're not meant to stockpile ammunition in hospitals.

00:24:15.060 You're not meant to make civilian homes targets for reasons that our species thought we all understood.

00:24:24.260 Sufficiently victimized perpetrators have no reason to abide by any standards.

00:24:29.460 No, and of course, militarily, this is all to Hamas's enormous advantage.

00:24:34.280 Because, again, they know that if there is a stockpile of ammunition or a terrorist or a tunnel entrance or whatever in a civilian home,

00:24:46.020 and even if the Israelis tell all the locals to get out, the world's media will say that Israel bombed or invaded a civilian home.

00:24:54.920 Or a hospital or a place of worship.

00:24:57.360 There's a member of the Israeli...

00:24:58.980 None of those words have the same meaning...

00:25:00.960 None of them.

00:25:01.540 ...in Gaza that they do in the West.

00:25:04.120 None at all.

00:25:05.660 It's...

00:25:06.580 Whenever it's reported that, you know, that a hospital has been hit,

00:25:13.080 it's usually reported in the world's press, as Hamas wants, that the Israelis just decided to bomb a hospital.

00:25:18.240 As if they're so evil, these Israelis, that they even bomb hospitals.

00:25:22.520 There was a member of the Israeli war cabinet, Gaddy Eisencott, who I quote in the book,

00:25:28.740 because he lost his son fighting in Gaza in the aftermath of October the 7th.

00:25:34.900 And the next day, he lost his nephew, also fighting in Gaza.

00:25:37.800 His nephew was killed because, as the Israelis were trying to do this incredibly delicate military operation,

00:25:44.280 to not...

00:25:44.740 To get back the hostages, destroy the leadership of Hamas, and minimize any possible civilian casualties.

00:25:53.280 Gaddy Eisencott's nephew was fired upon from a mosque by Hamas terrorists,

00:26:00.340 who gleefully opened fire on him and his unit.

00:26:03.380 And they were meant to be sticking to the...

00:26:05.880 Hamas were doing that.

00:26:07.240 The Israelis were trying to stick to the normal laws of conflict and not just destroy the mosque.

00:26:13.460 And so they lost soldiers.

00:26:16.060 This is another example of the way in which Hamas do this.

00:26:19.400 Any normal society that valued the life of their own civilians, like America, Britain, Israel,

00:26:27.780 would, if it knew that its people were going to come under bombardment often,

00:26:32.060 do what the Israelis did in the South and indeed across much of the country,

00:26:36.600 which is you build bomb shelters in every home.

00:26:39.480 And you have bomb shelters in every civilian area.

00:26:42.080 And across the South of Israel, that's the case, as it is in the North,

00:26:46.980 because it's been being shelled by Hezbollah for 20 years.

00:26:50.340 But only in Gaza do you get a situation where...

00:26:55.600 And I quote one of the Hamas leaders saying this in an interview with Al Arabiya last year.

00:27:00.280 He's asked why...

00:27:01.480 He's asked...

00:27:02.220 This Hamas leader was asked by a friendly Arab journalist,

00:27:05.500 why, if you say the civilian casualties in Gaza are so high,

00:27:09.220 why can't you allow the civilians of Gaza to shelter in your tunnel networks that you've built underneath Gaza?

00:27:16.680 And the Hamas leader says, but the tunnel system is not for the civilians.

00:27:21.680 The tunnel system is for our fighters and for our weaponry.

00:27:25.680 And the interviewer says, well, who's to look after the civilians?

00:27:28.980 And he says, well, the international community.

00:27:31.840 Right, right.

00:27:32.660 Well, that's just testament to the fact that the Palestinians are essentially cannon fodder

00:27:37.220 for the eternal war against Israel and the United States.

00:27:42.840 Yes, but it's even worse than that.

00:27:45.220 That, of course, an army that fights by the laws of war,

00:27:52.420 which the IDF does, like the American army, like the British army,

00:27:56.220 makes mistakes for sure, like the American army, like the British army,

00:27:59.640 but that fights by the laws of war,

00:28:02.680 when it encounters a terrorist army like this,

00:28:06.920 the civilized army seeks to minimize the civilian casualties,

00:28:12.940 as the IDF has done.

00:28:13.980 And anyone who claims that it hasn't

00:28:15.960 just does not know what's been going on for the last 18 months.

00:28:20.480 And believes Hamas reports.

00:28:22.700 And believes Hamas reports.

00:28:23.940 Which, why would anyone ever believe Hamas reports?

00:28:27.500 Yeah, it's, I mean, why go to a mass murderer

00:28:31.460 to find out their account of their actions, you know?

00:28:35.380 But the point is that when an army like that encounters an army

00:28:39.060 that not just desires death for its enemy,

00:28:43.880 but desires death for the people it purports to govern,

00:28:47.400 and with a kicker in it, seeks death itself.

00:28:53.460 This is a realm of fanaticism and what I call, it's a death cult.

00:29:00.520 A cult that literally worships death.

00:29:03.460 The leadership of Hamas, who I quote in the book,

00:29:06.180 have for decades boasted about the extent to which they love death,

00:29:12.080 embrace death.

00:29:12.900 And one of the underlying things in this book, as you know,

00:29:15.820 which we will come on to doubtless later,

00:29:17.720 but is what happens if a society that actually values life

00:29:23.360 encounters a death cult that worships and glories in death

00:29:29.160 for its foes, but also for itself.

00:29:34.020 And we have seen...

00:29:34.740 Suffering and death.

00:29:35.800 We have seen such movements throughout history.

00:29:38.540 We have seen them.

00:29:39.460 But most of the world has forgotten about them.

00:29:42.740 And I would argue that Israel, to a great extent,

00:29:45.720 forgot about them until 6.30 in the morning on October 7th, 2023.

00:29:51.220 Possessed by the spirit of Cain.

00:29:53.840 Yes.

00:29:54.480 And that accounts for some of the anti-Semitism too.

00:29:57.220 So let me run something by you.

00:29:59.360 I want to flip to how the world turned.

00:30:01.880 So it is the case that when people develop post-traumatic stress disorder,

00:30:08.860 they relatively rarely develop it in response to a tragedy,

00:30:13.000 even if it's a painful tragedy.

00:30:15.080 They tend to develop it,

00:30:18.220 one, risk factors being naive.

00:30:22.720 Seeing the world through rose-colored glasses, let's say,

00:30:25.520 assuming goodwill on everyone's part, including your own,

00:30:28.300 and then encountering a situation,

00:30:30.620 sometimes a situation that you're deeply involved in,

00:30:34.040 where malevolence raises its head.

00:30:37.920 The West is very sheltered,

00:30:39.860 and I would say blind to malevolence,

00:30:42.520 blind to its existence.

00:30:43.520 In the academic realm,

00:30:44.940 there's no discussion of good and evil.

00:30:46.840 Evil is an archaic term.

00:30:49.500 And malevolence is a consequence of trauma, right?

00:30:53.060 A consequence of privation.

00:30:54.760 And that's simply not the case.

00:30:56.480 Now, I read a book a while back,

00:30:59.780 and I don't remember which one it was, unfortunately,

00:31:01.860 but it described the erasure of the Byzantine Empire

00:31:06.320 from the Western imagination.

00:31:08.520 I was a relatively old person

00:31:10.720 before I really had any sense at all

00:31:13.900 of the extent of the Byzantine Empire

00:31:15.920 or the catastrophe of its demolition.

00:31:18.960 And the author of this particular book

00:31:22.060 believed that the defeat of the Byzantine Empire

00:31:29.780 by the Islamic world

00:31:32.660 and maybe by the psychopaths of the Islamic world

00:31:36.080 was so traumatic to the West

00:31:38.420 that we just erased it from our historical memory.

00:31:41.020 And then it seems to me, Douglas,

00:31:43.060 that something like that is going on right now.

00:31:45.280 I mean, look, let's talk about the universities for a moment.

00:31:48.420 Now, there's a fair bit of pathology

00:31:50.280 in the universities, a fair bit.

00:31:51.820 It's like top to bottom.

00:31:53.400 They're absolutely incorrigible as far as I'm concerned,

00:31:56.140 especially the Ivy Leagues.

00:31:57.520 They should be ashamed of themselves.

00:31:59.840 They should be deprived of all funding

00:32:01.880 as far as I'm concerned.

00:32:03.120 In any case,

00:32:05.020 the protests that emerged there

00:32:06.860 and all across the world,

00:32:07.940 you detail out

00:32:08.760 and with some great sadness and amazement.

00:32:14.660 But I think part of it is that

00:32:16.460 it's not within the purview

00:32:20.400 of the people who are protesting

00:32:22.560 to replace their theory

00:32:25.860 that the victims are uprising

00:32:28.720 with the notion that

00:32:30.140 a malevolent cult of death

00:32:32.600 that worships sadistic suffering

00:32:34.940 and annihilation exists.

00:32:37.100 It's too far outside their worldview.

00:32:40.800 Now, there's more to it than that

00:32:42.040 because Iran is,

00:32:44.220 you saw that the Ayatollah,

00:32:45.940 this is the most amazing thing.

00:32:47.480 The Ayatollah himself

00:32:48.840 congratulated the American universities

00:32:51.840 or the universities of the UK

00:32:53.400 for that matter too.

00:32:54.780 He congratulated the Western students

00:32:56.300 for joining the anti-colonial struggle.

00:32:58.420 Not mentioning to the students

00:33:00.080 that of course he, Ayatollah Khomeini,

00:33:02.060 had ordered the gunning down

00:33:03.260 of their contemporaries

00:33:04.240 across the streets of Tehran

00:33:05.660 in 2009.

00:33:06.820 And on many other occasions.

00:33:08.580 A minor issue.

00:33:09.260 That when Iranian students

00:33:10.480 come out on the streets

00:33:11.340 to protest against

00:33:12.160 the actual oppression

00:33:13.320 of the Islamic revolutionary government

00:33:15.140 in Tehran,

00:33:16.520 Ayatollah Khomeini,

00:33:17.460 who congratulates

00:33:18.640 the Western students

00:33:19.840 for uprising,

00:33:21.040 shoots the students

00:33:21.900 who uprise in Iran.

00:33:22.980 But that's a detail.

00:33:24.280 Yes, it's an ignorable detail,

00:33:26.140 clearly.

00:33:26.660 And there's another issue

00:33:27.740 that seems to be operating

00:33:28.900 at the universities.

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00:34:57.340 A disproportionate number

00:35:00.660 of the protesters

00:35:02.260 or the protester puppets,

00:35:05.100 you might say,

00:35:06.120 are young women.

00:35:07.920 Right?

00:35:08.720 And so there's something

00:35:09.820 to that too

00:35:10.500 because it's in the nature

00:35:12.320 of young women,

00:35:13.160 I would say,

00:35:13.880 to adopt the mien

00:35:16.720 of sympathy

00:35:18.700 towards victimization

00:35:20.080 and fail to see

00:35:21.020 the predators

00:35:21.700 lurking underneath

00:35:22.720 underneath the rocks,

00:35:25.940 let's say.

00:35:27.040 Women haven't

00:35:28.100 traditionally fought wars.

00:35:29.580 They're not necessarily

00:35:30.460 equipped to identify

00:35:31.660 actual enemies.

00:35:33.460 Their proclivity

00:35:34.640 is sympathy

00:35:35.640 and that's exacerbated

00:35:38.380 in the case of naivety

00:35:39.480 and there's a great

00:35:40.360 intermixture of pride

00:35:41.520 in that too

00:35:42.160 and the female sympathy

00:35:43.600 can,

00:35:44.320 what would you say,

00:35:45.240 overcome

00:35:45.900 the pathology

00:35:48.100 of victimization.

00:35:49.320 That's Eve,

00:35:50.200 as far as I'm concerned,

00:35:51.240 clutching the serpent

00:35:52.200 to her breast

00:35:52.980 and the universities

00:35:54.220 have become feminized

00:35:55.260 to a great degree

00:35:56.260 and then there's

00:35:57.380 this incredibly deep

00:35:59.880 and people overall,

00:36:01.980 I think,

00:36:02.340 in the West

00:36:02.700 have no idea

00:36:03.460 how pathological

00:36:04.500 the universities

00:36:05.100 have become.

00:36:06.720 The social sciences,

00:36:09.400 the humanities

00:36:10.740 run on an oppressor

00:36:14.380 victim narrative

00:36:15.780 and everything is seen

00:36:17.460 through that light

00:36:18.060 and you can learn

00:36:18.800 the tenets

00:36:19.520 of the oppressor victimizer

00:36:20.940 narrative

00:36:21.600 in five minutes

00:36:22.680 and then you can

00:36:23.320 explain the world.

00:36:24.440 Yeah, absolutely.

00:36:25.240 And by the way,

00:36:26.180 there's a very healthy

00:36:27.980 dose of narcissism

00:36:29.260 thrown into the whole thing

00:36:30.360 which is that

00:36:31.120 to the extent

00:36:32.400 that any students

00:36:33.260 in American universities

00:36:34.200 get taught anything

00:36:35.160 about the Middle East,

00:36:36.460 they will be taught

00:36:37.060 Edward Said's theory,

00:36:38.800 claim of Orientalism,

00:36:40.620 which of course

00:36:41.760 is a claim

00:36:44.180 that is,

00:36:44.960 by Said's own admission,

00:36:46.400 spilled way beyond

00:36:47.400 even the claims

00:36:48.200 that he made

00:36:48.800 in his book.

00:36:50.480 Said's insight,

00:36:51.820 if you can call it that,

00:36:52.760 was that when Westerners

00:36:54.340 approached the Arab

00:36:55.480 and Muslim world,

00:36:56.600 they did so

00:36:57.420 through the eyes

00:36:58.800 of Westerners,

00:37:00.180 which is an observation

00:37:01.860 so banal

00:37:03.100 that only the Academy

00:37:04.640 could extrapolate out

00:37:05.840 a whole course from it.

00:37:08.040 I mean,

00:37:08.220 what eyes would you...

00:37:09.420 Especially without giving

00:37:11.060 some due credit

00:37:11.820 to the fact

00:37:12.580 of Western eyes.

00:37:13.500 Well,

00:37:13.860 people like,

00:37:14.420 I mean,

00:37:14.680 when Napoleon

00:37:15.420 goes to Egypt,

00:37:16.540 one of the things

00:37:17.160 he does

00:37:17.660 is to order

00:37:18.340 a massive catalogue

00:37:19.880 of all of the riches

00:37:21.960 and treasures

00:37:22.760 of ancient Egypt,

00:37:23.900 a catalogue

00:37:24.460 which Egypt itself

00:37:25.620 had not produced

00:37:26.540 to that point.

00:37:28.040 Right.

00:37:28.220 And one of the people

00:37:29.100 who Napoleon gets

00:37:30.140 on to do this

00:37:31.140 and who founds

00:37:32.000 the Cairo Museum,

00:37:33.220 by the way,

00:37:34.120 ends up also being

00:37:35.840 one of the people

00:37:36.520 who breaks the code

00:37:37.620 of the Rosetta Stone,

00:37:39.240 giving the lost languages

00:37:40.600 back to the region.

00:37:41.900 But anyway,

00:37:42.960 people don't need

00:37:43.600 to know any of that.

00:37:44.380 Another detail.

00:37:45.040 It's another detail.

00:37:46.360 Why do you need

00:37:46.860 to know that

00:37:47.700 when you can say,

00:37:50.040 this is what

00:37:50.660 Said really gifted?

00:37:51.480 Western eyes

00:37:51.880 who defined

00:37:52.620 ancient artifacts

00:37:53.380 as treasures

00:37:54.200 to begin with.

00:37:55.200 Right.

00:37:55.560 Then it becomes

00:37:56.440 self-evident, right?

00:37:57.640 But just consider

00:37:59.400 the enormously

00:38:00.380 advantageous aspect

00:38:02.540 of narcissism

00:38:03.740 to this mix.

00:38:04.940 Because the narcissistic

00:38:06.700 thing that Said

00:38:07.480 helped to give

00:38:08.700 American and other

00:38:10.240 Western students

00:38:11.060 was,

00:38:11.360 nothing in the world

00:38:13.340 happens unless you

00:38:14.860 in the West

00:38:15.560 make it happen.

00:38:17.260 You make it so.

00:38:19.760 The Palestinians,

00:38:21.040 like all the Arabs,

00:38:22.220 the Muslim world,

00:38:23.180 the developing world

00:38:24.120 as a whole,

00:38:24.960 does nothing

00:38:25.580 of its own volition.

00:38:27.080 It can't even make

00:38:27.920 mistakes on its own dime.

00:38:31.160 It's you

00:38:32.020 that made them do it.

00:38:33.920 What did we

00:38:34.840 in America do

00:38:35.940 to cause this

00:38:37.180 is the lens,

00:38:38.560 the only lens,

00:38:39.740 through which

00:38:40.260 an American student

00:38:41.280 will be taught

00:38:42.180 to look at the world?

00:38:43.760 Why is this

00:38:44.700 happening in China?

00:38:46.720 What did we do

00:38:47.920 to China

00:38:48.540 will be the way.

00:38:50.160 But everything

00:38:50.660 is interpreted.

00:38:52.020 So this is just

00:38:52.880 not fit for purpose

00:38:54.120 for understanding

00:38:54.740 the world.

00:38:55.280 But it's hugely

00:38:55.960 narcissistic because,

00:38:57.300 among other things,

00:38:58.980 I mean,

00:38:59.220 and you can see this

00:39:00.060 in the spilling out

00:39:01.100 of protests

00:39:01.980 across America

00:39:02.760 and other Western campuses.

00:39:05.160 One of the things

00:39:05.800 I say at one point

00:39:06.780 in the book

00:39:07.000 is what level

00:39:08.640 of delusion

00:39:09.440 and narcissistic delusion

00:39:11.600 do you have to be in

00:39:12.480 to think

00:39:13.120 that you

00:39:14.460 at the University

00:39:15.700 of Columbia

00:39:16.560 or Berkeley

00:39:18.020 or Yale

00:39:19.240 or Princeton

00:39:20.200 or Oxford

00:39:21.300 can dictate

00:39:23.180 war policy

00:39:24.400 two continents away?

00:39:28.380 Who

00:39:29.060 was waiting

00:39:31.720 for your opinion

00:39:32.380 exactly?

00:39:33.140 It's an extension.

00:39:34.440 In counterterrorism

00:39:35.520 strategy

00:39:36.140 in densely built up

00:39:37.420 urban areas.

00:39:39.840 When you say

00:39:41.640 that your university

00:39:43.040 is central

00:39:44.000 to the funding

00:39:44.720 of Israel's war,

00:39:45.740 what do you mean?

00:39:47.280 What do you mean?

00:39:48.820 You,

00:39:49.640 your campus,

00:39:50.420 your campus

00:39:51.260 is at the center

00:39:52.640 of the war?

00:39:53.400 Really?

00:39:54.620 Really?

00:39:55.160 You're at the center

00:39:55.880 of world events

00:39:56.840 by sitting in the middle

00:39:58.540 of your quadrangle

00:39:59.500 in a tent?

00:40:01.860 Let me put a twist

00:40:03.460 on that

00:40:03.900 and tell me

00:40:04.300 what you think.

00:40:05.040 So,

00:40:06.000 it seems to me

00:40:06.760 that the pride story

00:40:07.740 is slightly,

00:40:09.160 perhaps,

00:40:09.640 more complicated

00:40:10.360 than the tale

00:40:13.200 that you laid out.

00:40:14.580 So,

00:40:14.880 there's this initial

00:40:15.660 presumption

00:40:16.360 of Western centrality,

00:40:17.880 let's say,

00:40:18.500 that you pointed to.

00:40:19.840 But,

00:40:20.440 see,

00:40:20.960 one of the things

00:40:21.540 I saw

00:40:21.940 at the University

00:40:22.540 of Toronto

00:40:23.160 shortly before

00:40:24.480 it became impossible

00:40:25.400 to me,

00:40:26.240 impossible for me

00:40:27.040 to work there

00:40:27.580 was this insistence

00:40:29.120 by my colleagues

00:40:30.040 that there was

00:40:31.040 no moral pathway,

00:40:32.660 no more productive

00:40:33.680 and moral pathway

00:40:34.960 that a student

00:40:36.380 could be invited

00:40:37.100 to take

00:40:37.600 than the pathway

00:40:38.600 of protest.

00:40:39.560 Yes,

00:40:39.800 yes,

00:40:39.940 yes.

00:40:40.120 Right,

00:40:40.360 okay,

00:40:40.700 so now,

00:40:41.140 the protesy,

00:40:42.280 it's not only

00:40:43.040 that the students

00:40:43.900 are characterized

00:40:46.720 by this

00:40:47.420 overweening certainty

00:40:48.960 in Western,

00:40:51.460 what would you say?

00:40:53.680 Dominance

00:40:54.200 and malevolence.

00:40:54.800 Yes,

00:40:55.700 yes,

00:40:56.220 it's that

00:40:56.800 by,

00:40:58.080 so they,

00:40:58.880 see,

00:40:59.380 they posit

00:40:59.940 this malevolent force

00:41:01.300 that's centered

00:41:01.860 in the West,

00:41:02.440 but then they position

00:41:03.540 themselves

00:41:04.460 as adversaries

00:41:06.420 to that force

00:41:07.160 and that's,

00:41:07.840 that's the prideful,

00:41:09.680 that's the prideful twist.

00:41:11.260 It's like,

00:41:12.140 we're so horrible

00:41:13.160 here in the West,

00:41:14.300 but I'm so good

00:41:15.500 that even though

00:41:16.500 I'm part of the West,

00:41:17.900 I'll do everything

00:41:18.860 I can to oppose that

00:41:20.220 and then they're egged on

00:41:21.300 by their,

00:41:21.760 by their idiot professors.

00:41:23.420 I quote a student

00:41:24.360 at Columbia

00:41:24.940 who described himself

00:41:26.680 as a first generation

00:41:28.280 low income student,

00:41:29.820 first in his family

00:41:30.840 to go to university,

00:41:33.240 certainly the first

00:41:33.800 to go to Columbia,

00:41:34.620 you would have thought,

00:41:35.320 most of us would have thought,

00:41:36.880 damn,

00:41:37.160 I'm lucky.

00:41:39.160 But he describes

00:41:40.420 how straight away

00:41:42.700 he was taught

00:41:43.480 what he described

00:41:44.180 as the rich history

00:41:45.460 of protest

00:41:46.280 at Columbia

00:41:46.960 and remembered thinking,

00:41:48.340 when it kicks off again,

00:41:50.420 I want to be

00:41:51.300 at the center of it.

00:41:52.460 Yeah,

00:41:52.480 yeah.

00:41:53.080 Now,

00:41:54.020 you know,

00:41:55.040 I don't know about you,

00:41:55.840 but I think student days

00:41:58.020 should be used

00:41:58.600 for many things.

00:42:00.440 But,

00:42:01.100 but the idea

00:42:02.720 that you should make yourself

00:42:03.880 central to the protest

00:42:05.360 movements of your time

00:42:06.940 as your demonstration

00:42:08.800 of virtue

00:42:09.580 in your years

00:42:10.480 of study

00:42:11.200 is,

00:42:12.720 well,

00:42:12.860 that's taught.

00:42:13.960 That's taught.

00:42:14.640 That young man

00:42:15.180 was taught that.

00:42:16.060 Definitely.

00:42:16.280 It's because,

00:42:16.920 it's because...

00:42:17.200 By the culture too,

00:42:18.040 not just by the university.

00:42:19.000 It's because the professors

00:42:20.160 at totally pointless

00:42:22.160 studies institutes

00:42:23.640 and other things

00:42:24.460 and sometimes

00:42:25.160 in serious programs

00:42:27.420 are actually telling

00:42:28.800 their students this.

00:42:30.180 There are a number

00:42:31.020 of former faculty

00:42:32.000 of Columbia

00:42:32.500 that I've spoken to

00:42:33.960 and some present still

00:42:35.100 who say this to me.

00:42:36.180 They say,

00:42:36.340 we were teaching

00:42:37.380 this for years.

00:42:38.640 This was all

00:42:39.440 being boiled up

00:42:40.960 by us,

00:42:41.820 by the faculty,

00:42:42.960 for years

00:42:44.660 ahead of this.

00:42:45.760 But the other thing

00:42:46.760 that happens then

00:42:47.560 just to add to your riff

00:42:48.920 on the sin of it

00:42:50.680 is that,

00:42:52.180 as you know,

00:42:52.900 one of the conclusions

00:42:54.440 I come to about this

00:42:55.800 is

00:42:56.340 that this has been

00:42:58.100 projection

00:42:59.420 on a vast scale.

00:43:03.160 And it really took

00:43:04.440 talking with

00:43:05.620 quite a lot of

00:43:06.700 psychologists

00:43:07.840 and psychiatrists

00:43:09.080 about this phenomenon

00:43:10.320 in the last 18 months

00:43:11.700 to work this out.

00:43:14.500 There's this rule,

00:43:15.660 as you know,

00:43:16.180 that I go into

00:43:16.900 in the book

00:43:17.360 that I've

00:43:17.800 mulled on a lot

00:43:19.540 that I got

00:43:20.220 from the great Soviet

00:43:21.160 Jewish writer

00:43:21.980 Vasily Grossman

00:43:22.840 who appears

00:43:23.920 intermittently

00:43:25.000 throughout the book.

00:43:27.020 And Vasily Grossman

00:43:28.220 had this terrific

00:43:29.220 dictum

00:43:29.820 in the middle

00:43:30.180 of life and fate

00:43:31.080 where he says,

00:43:32.060 tell me what

00:43:32.560 you accuse the Jews of.

00:43:34.040 I'll tell you

00:43:34.580 what you're guilty of.

00:43:36.840 And this is

00:43:38.580 unbelievably relevant

00:43:40.080 again and again

00:43:40.840 and again.

00:43:41.320 You know,

00:43:41.740 the Iranian

00:43:42.040 revolutionary government

00:43:42.900 says that the Jewish state

00:43:44.220 is a colonialist enterprise.

00:43:45.980 The Iranian

00:43:46.780 revolutionary government

00:43:47.560 is colonizing

00:43:48.240 the Middle East

00:43:48.720 since 1979.

00:43:50.600 There's nothing

00:43:51.220 colonist about Islam.

00:43:53.600 Oh, no.

00:43:54.100 I mean...

00:43:54.520 No, it was only

00:43:55.100 the fastest growing empire

00:43:56.700 in the history

00:43:57.360 of the world.

00:43:57.960 And as you know,

00:43:59.100 Mohammed,

00:43:59.640 when he spread Islam,

00:44:01.200 only did through

00:44:01.940 by persuasion

00:44:02.920 and kindness.

00:44:04.180 Right.

00:44:04.520 And that still

00:44:05.560 obtains today.

00:44:06.480 We'll get back to that.

00:44:07.480 But every time

00:44:10.020 I mulled

00:44:12.600 on this subject

00:44:13.360 in recent years,

00:44:14.100 the Grossman's rule

00:44:14.940 absolutely applied.

00:44:16.720 People using

00:44:17.460 the Jewish state

00:44:18.360 just as they have

00:44:19.080 the Jewish people

00:44:19.740 throughout history

00:44:20.300 as a projection mechanism

00:44:22.240 for their own failings.

00:44:24.500 And the place

00:44:25.440 where I realized

00:44:26.180 this became

00:44:26.860 very relevant

00:44:28.060 to the American

00:44:28.820 university

00:44:29.520 and the Western

00:44:30.060 universities was

00:44:31.020 what were the things

00:44:32.480 the students

00:44:33.000 were accusing

00:44:33.700 the Jewish state

00:44:34.740 of?

00:44:37.800 Genocide.

00:44:39.500 Ethnic cleansing.

00:44:41.300 White supremacy.

00:44:44.200 Sorry,

00:44:44.540 so you would laugh

00:44:45.240 at that one.

00:44:45.780 It's just

00:44:46.220 they've never been to Israel.

00:44:47.800 You got it.

00:44:48.580 That's a good one.

00:44:49.500 But anyway,

00:44:50.400 so ethnic cleansing,

00:44:51.600 genocide,

00:44:52.160 white supremacy.

00:44:55.460 The various sins,

00:44:58.100 they will always lob

00:45:00.820 at Israel.

00:45:01.840 And they were throwing

00:45:03.360 this at Israel

00:45:03.860 from October the 7th

00:45:05.180 as they had

00:45:05.820 in the years before.

00:45:07.200 But they really got

00:45:07.800 a push on it

00:45:08.940 after that.

00:45:09.680 And I was thinking

00:45:10.540 throughout this period

00:45:12.340 as I saw the protests

00:45:13.480 in the West,

00:45:14.120 I thought,

00:45:14.860 why are these terms

00:45:16.640 so familiar?

00:45:18.540 The conclusion

00:45:19.100 I came to was,

00:45:20.400 and it actually was

00:45:20.880 a follow-on

00:45:21.340 from my previous book,

00:45:23.080 The War on the West,

00:45:23.960 where I talked about

00:45:24.600 what was being taught

00:45:25.840 to a generation.

00:45:27.860 And as you know,

00:45:28.500 one of the things

00:45:28.960 I said in that book

00:45:29.640 was,

00:45:29.800 we are teaching

00:45:32.040 young people

00:45:32.980 born in the 21st century

00:45:34.520 in America

00:45:35.180 and the rest of the West

00:45:36.380 that they are guilty

00:45:37.440 by dint of being born here.

00:45:40.100 You are guilty

00:45:41.260 of colonialism

00:45:42.380 because some of your ancestors

00:45:44.120 may have engaged

00:45:45.600 in colonialism.

00:45:46.500 You're guilty

00:45:47.180 of genocide.

00:45:48.020 You carry the guilt

00:45:49.060 of genocide

00:45:49.800 because 300 years ago,

00:45:51.820 people who may not

00:45:52.880 be ancestors of yours

00:45:53.980 but looked like you

00:45:56.060 did this thing.

00:45:57.660 And so on and so on.

00:45:59.260 And I said in the War

00:46:00.220 on the West

00:46:00.700 that this was a very,

00:46:02.180 very dangerous thing

00:46:03.020 because it's a mechanism

00:46:04.240 of guilt

00:46:04.760 with no alleviation,

00:46:06.100 mechanism for forgiveness.

00:46:07.440 There's no way

00:46:08.000 to alleviate the guilt.

00:46:09.640 You're just being told

00:46:10.680 you're guilty

00:46:11.200 and you're stuck with it.

00:46:12.900 Now you can see

00:46:13.460 the protests

00:46:14.140 as a manifestation

00:46:15.120 of that attempt

00:46:16.460 to expiate.

00:46:17.140 Exactly.

00:46:18.500 One of the conclusions

00:46:19.480 I come to

00:46:20.100 is that this protest movement

00:46:22.920 has been projection

00:46:24.680 on a vast scale.

00:46:27.540 The students accuse Israel

00:46:29.820 of things

00:46:30.680 that the students

00:46:31.380 have been told

00:46:32.200 that they themselves

00:46:33.080 are guilty of.

00:46:34.680 Well, they see Israel

00:46:36.060 as the vanguard

00:46:38.280 of Western colonialism.

00:46:39.720 Exactly.

00:46:40.280 It's the whole story.

00:46:40.920 And so this is

00:46:42.560 a giant mechanism

00:46:44.380 of projection

00:46:45.220 which is why I say

00:46:46.600 when it comes

00:46:47.100 to these protesters,

00:46:48.240 particularly the students

00:46:49.020 in the West,

00:46:49.600 I say tell me

00:46:50.320 what you accuse

00:46:51.140 the Jewish state of.

00:46:52.260 I'll tell you

00:46:52.840 what you were taught

00:46:53.560 you're guilty of.

00:46:55.420 Right, of course.

00:46:56.600 You were taught

00:46:57.080 that you're guilty of.

00:46:58.160 Yep.

00:46:58.600 And no wonder

00:46:59.220 that people rebel

00:47:00.060 against that

00:47:00.640 because how the hell else

00:47:01.740 are they going

00:47:02.180 to expiate the guilt?

00:47:03.480 Absolutely.

00:47:04.140 But here is a way.

00:47:05.800 Yep.

00:47:05.980 And with the added thing

00:47:07.320 that the Iranian proxies

00:47:08.760 across the West,

00:47:10.000 the Qatari money

00:47:10.980 that has flooded

00:47:11.900 through Western universities,

00:47:13.860 not least American,

00:47:14.740 the propagandists,

00:47:16.420 the propagandists,

00:47:17.640 the organized movement.

00:47:20.340 It's not an accident

00:47:22.040 that the same movement

00:47:23.600 crops up everywhere

00:47:24.660 with exactly the same slogans.

00:47:26.800 Is it generic

00:47:27.900 that students at Princeton

00:47:29.140 again the other week

00:47:30.060 are chanting glory

00:47:31.200 to our martyrs?

00:47:32.680 This is totally imported

00:47:34.760 propaganda

00:47:36.960 just placed over them

00:47:38.860 and these dolts

00:47:40.480 repeat and repeat

00:47:41.440 and repeat.

00:47:42.000 but all of this

00:47:45.060 has been done

00:47:46.520 so expertly

00:47:48.120 because it plays

00:47:50.780 to the psychological weakness

00:47:52.680 that exists

00:47:53.420 in so many people

00:47:54.300 in the West

00:47:54.660 who have been taught

00:47:55.740 their guilt,

00:47:57.100 have been taught

00:47:57.860 culpability

00:47:58.540 with no means

00:47:59.640 of getting rid of it

00:48:00.400 but here,

00:48:01.340 here you have a means.

00:48:02.340 culpability with no virtue.

00:48:05.840 One of the most striking

00:48:07.240 examples of that

00:48:08.280 I believe is,

00:48:09.240 you know,

00:48:09.500 I was probably

00:48:10.400 40 bloody years old

00:48:12.120 before I knew

00:48:12.900 who Wilberforce was.

00:48:15.160 Hmm.

00:48:16.020 You know,

00:48:16.760 to my eternal shame,

00:48:19.720 it's all part and parcel

00:48:21.680 of the message

00:48:22.480 that what,

00:48:23.080 the Western colonial powers

00:48:24.780 were responsible

00:48:25.640 for slavery

00:48:26.420 when the truth

00:48:27.140 of the matter

00:48:27.600 is that

00:48:28.200 the Great Britain

00:48:30.860 in particular

00:48:31.580 waged war

00:48:32.800 for what?

00:48:33.360 175 years

00:48:34.700 on the high seas

00:48:35.500 to eradicate slavery

00:48:36.680 for the first time

00:48:37.520 in history?

00:48:38.080 We not only eradicated,

00:48:39.680 we, the British,

00:48:40.460 not only eradicated it

00:48:41.880 in the British Empire

00:48:43.280 but eradicated it

00:48:44.580 on all the high seas

00:48:45.620 Right.

00:48:46.160 and lost thousands

00:48:46.980 of sailors

00:48:47.580 throughout the 19th century

00:48:48.800 and every British household

00:48:50.380 paid far more

00:48:51.420 in household goods

00:48:52.440 throughout the 19th century

00:48:53.640 because we weren't

00:48:54.700 trading with slave traders.

00:48:56.980 Right.

00:48:57.260 Compare that, by the way,

00:48:58.620 to the fact that

00:48:59.100 there's the reparations

00:49:00.200 Yes, at the same time

00:49:01.700 the Islamic world

00:49:02.400 was gloriously

00:49:04.220 still slaving away

00:49:06.060 and much of the Islamic world

00:49:08.380 still does, by the way,

00:49:10.400 across Africa

00:49:11.560 and the Middle East

00:49:12.440 is still doing slaving.

00:49:15.340 So, so...

00:49:16.340 Unrepentantly.

00:49:17.360 Unrepentantly.

00:49:17.840 No apology whatsoever.

00:49:19.780 But, but, but positively

00:49:21.240 beaming

00:49:22.560 that at the same time

00:49:24.260 they can teach people

00:49:25.200 in the West

00:49:25.740 that Westerners born

00:49:27.440 in the 21st century

00:49:28.520 are guilty of

00:49:29.300 18th century slaving.

00:49:31.880 So, this is,

00:49:33.880 this is a,

00:49:35.180 an extraordinarily

00:49:37.620 dangerous moment

00:49:39.300 it seems to me

00:49:40.540 because the,

00:49:41.780 the ground that you and I

00:49:43.320 and others

00:49:44.080 have identified

00:49:45.000 for many years

00:49:46.360 of deracination

00:49:48.980 of populations,

00:49:51.600 demoralization

00:49:52.660 of populations

00:49:53.800 stripping away

00:49:56.000 of all legitimate heroes

00:49:57.720 or ignorance of them

00:49:59.840 whether it's

00:50:00.280 Wilberforce

00:50:01.080 or, or, or,

00:50:02.360 or Churchill

00:50:03.020 or anyone else

00:50:05.220 that the stripping away

00:50:06.920 of the heroes

00:50:07.500 stripping away

00:50:08.380 of the national story

00:50:09.900 in country

00:50:10.540 after country

00:50:11.200 across the West

00:50:11.960 leaves this vacuum.

00:50:13.800 Canada leading

00:50:14.760 the pack perhaps.

00:50:15.540 Canada perhaps

00:50:16.640 the world leader.

00:50:18.500 Australia,

00:50:19.320 New Zealand,

00:50:19.860 they could compete.

00:50:20.280 They're doing very,

00:50:21.080 very well.

00:50:21.880 They are.

00:50:22.480 But into this vacuum

00:50:23.960 something was always

00:50:25.140 going to step.

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00:51:21.700 slash JBP.

00:51:25.440 And there is no reason

00:51:28.000 why American

00:51:28.820 or other Western universities

00:51:30.460 or streets,

00:51:31.540 because it's not just

00:51:32.140 at higher education institutions,

00:51:34.120 it's, you know,

00:51:34.920 Union Station in New York

00:51:36.340 shut down again

00:51:37.120 the other week

00:51:37.660 by hundreds of people

00:51:39.040 chanting for intifada.

00:51:40.540 Yeah.

00:51:41.060 Intifada terrorism

00:51:42.180 in the center of New York.

00:51:43.540 What it is is

00:51:45.560 there's no reason

00:51:46.320 why this

00:51:46.940 death cult ideology

00:51:49.140 should find itself

00:51:50.320 worshipped

00:51:51.100 in the Free West

00:51:53.040 apart from the fact

00:51:54.940 that we have allowed

00:51:55.740 ourselves to be

00:51:56.460 deracinated and demoralized

00:51:58.000 and allowed

00:51:58.880 the weakest

00:52:00.060 and most pernicious

00:52:01.240 imaginable ideology

00:52:02.740 to step into the vacuum.

00:52:04.600 Yes,

00:52:04.900 an assortment

00:52:05.600 of weak

00:52:06.580 and appalling

00:52:08.460 ideologies,

00:52:09.580 most particularly

00:52:10.420 the idea

00:52:11.920 that the world

00:52:13.520 can be explained

00:52:14.500 in consequence

00:52:15.220 of the oppressor-victim narrative.

00:52:17.540 Yes,

00:52:17.920 oppressor-oppressed,

00:52:18.960 colonizer-colonized.

00:52:20.180 Yeah,

00:52:20.480 proletariat-bourgeoisie,

00:52:22.700 it's the same bloody story.

00:52:24.140 There's another strand

00:52:25.400 to that,

00:52:25.720 by the way,

00:52:26.160 which I gave a lecture

00:52:27.600 on this in New York

00:52:28.200 last year

00:52:29.040 for New Criterion,

00:52:30.080 which is even if somebody

00:52:31.300 does use the term evil

00:52:32.960 in the West these days

00:52:34.500 and people are very

00:52:35.440 uncomfortable about using it

00:52:37.080 because of its

00:52:38.120 theological framework,

00:52:39.480 If you do hear

00:52:41.120 the word evil

00:52:41.960 used in the West,

00:52:43.540 in the Western press,

00:52:44.560 I give examples of this,

00:52:46.260 what will people

00:52:48.040 describe it as?

00:52:49.280 Almost inevitably,

00:52:50.440 they will resort

00:52:51.120 to Hannah Arendt's

00:52:52.200 lamentable definition

00:52:53.540 of the banality of evil.

00:52:55.920 And if anyone's interested,

00:52:57.060 they can go and read

00:52:58.120 the essay online

00:52:59.040 that I wrote about

00:52:59.880 against Hannah Arendt's

00:53:02.080 appalling,

00:53:03.720 misguided,

00:53:04.880 and provably wrong

00:53:06.180 theory on the banality

00:53:07.780 of evil,

00:53:08.220 which she applied

00:53:09.200 to Eichmann,

00:53:11.060 the leading Nazi

00:53:12.040 and architect

00:53:14.180 of the Holocaust.

00:53:15.220 The facade is banal.

00:53:17.620 There was nothing

00:53:18.380 about Eichmann

00:53:19.200 that was banal.

00:53:20.660 He just fooled

00:53:21.560 Hannah Arendt.

00:53:22.840 But she,

00:53:24.180 through her

00:53:25.240 half-baked theory,

00:53:28.240 that's the last bit

00:53:29.860 of the use of evil

00:53:31.420 I notice in the public realm.

00:53:32.560 Something will happen

00:53:33.360 like, for instance,

00:53:34.300 when a drummer

00:53:35.120 Lee Rigby was beheaded

00:53:36.220 in broad daylight

00:53:37.200 on the streets of London

00:53:38.560 in 2013,

00:53:39.980 the next day,

00:53:40.880 a columnist at the Telegraph,

00:53:42.260 a conservative newspaper

00:53:43.140 in the UK,

00:53:43.860 described the act

00:53:44.700 as banal.

00:53:47.720 The Guardian

00:53:48.600 said it was a sort of...

00:53:50.540 Yes, yes, exactly.

00:53:52.700 It's hard to see

00:53:53.940 decapitation as banal

00:53:55.820 unless you just have

00:53:58.300 no other

00:53:59.300 word to use

00:54:02.440 in the environment

00:54:04.060 of evil.

00:54:05.100 But one of the things

00:54:06.920 I want readers

00:54:08.000 to come away from

00:54:08.880 on Demoxys and Death

00:54:09.860 Cults thinking about

00:54:11.160 is exactly this.

00:54:13.100 Maybe there is such

00:54:14.460 a force in the world.

00:54:16.420 Maybe evil really

00:54:17.480 does descend.

00:54:19.280 Maybe it actually exists.

00:54:20.780 So when did you decide...

00:54:22.200 When did you come

00:54:23.240 to that conclusion?

00:54:26.120 Like, what...

00:54:27.060 And is that

00:54:27.620 a theological conclusion?

00:54:29.340 I mean, when you start

00:54:30.160 talking about

00:54:30.780 the landscape

00:54:31.300 of good and evil,

00:54:32.200 you're perilously close

00:54:33.320 to the religious world.

00:54:34.840 Oh, yeah.

00:54:35.100 Or you're in it.

00:54:36.260 Yeah, absolutely.

00:54:36.400 You know, when I dealt

00:54:37.140 with my clinical clients

00:54:38.500 that were severely hurt

00:54:41.300 by malevolent actors,

00:54:44.420 the language became religious

00:54:46.280 because there was no other way

00:54:48.400 of discussing it.

00:54:50.120 Yes.

00:54:50.240 And that had nothing to do

00:54:51.980 with my imaginations.

00:54:53.520 Mm-hmm.

00:54:54.480 There was no language

00:54:55.840 they could use

00:54:56.780 to describe what happened

00:54:58.020 to them.

00:54:58.520 Yes.

00:54:58.960 That wasn't profound enough

00:55:00.680 to touch on the religious

00:55:01.860 because the depth of horror

00:55:03.680 was so great

00:55:04.700 that no other language

00:55:05.820 sufficed.

00:55:06.620 Well, I would say one of those,

00:55:07.620 and you know this well

00:55:08.700 from your work on the Bible,

00:55:11.440 but the...

00:55:13.000 One of the things,

00:55:13.720 I suppose,

00:55:14.360 that would stand out

00:55:15.300 as a definition of evil

00:55:17.220 is doing it knowingly

00:55:20.420 and...

00:55:21.800 Gleefully.

00:55:22.280 Gleefully.

00:55:22.840 Gleefully and glorying it.

00:55:24.100 And that's one of the things.

00:55:25.320 There's a level underneath that.

00:55:28.240 It's doing it knowingly

00:55:30.080 and gleefully

00:55:31.140 to spite God.

00:55:34.280 Right.

00:55:34.860 And you don't understand evil.

00:55:37.760 I don't think you understand evil

00:55:39.300 if you don't understand it

00:55:40.800 as the ultimate in rebellion

00:55:43.300 against the fact of existence itself,

00:55:46.060 the spirit of existence.

00:55:47.540 Well, hence death cult.

00:55:49.160 Well, that's...

00:55:49.760 But then the layer underneath that

00:55:51.440 is where death is offered up

00:55:55.040 as a form of worship.

00:55:59.020 Now, this is something

00:56:00.120 the Western mind

00:56:00.920 finds incredibly hard

00:56:02.060 to understand

00:56:02.920 within the death cults

00:56:04.420 within Islam.

00:56:05.100 We have some understanding

00:56:07.920 about it

00:56:08.540 when this arises

00:56:09.720 in the form of

00:56:11.020 Nazi fascism

00:56:12.440 or Soviet communism,

00:56:14.680 some understanding,

00:56:15.460 or Maoist communism,

00:56:16.360 even less understanding.

00:56:17.640 Or serial killing pathology.

00:56:19.920 Serial killers.

00:56:20.820 We could...

00:56:22.100 I think we still might be able

00:56:23.560 to identify Jeffrey Dahmer,

00:56:25.840 you know,

00:56:26.420 or the Yorkshire Ripper as...

00:56:29.440 Worshippers of death.

00:56:30.840 Worshippers of death.

00:56:31.380 And suffering, right?

00:56:32.620 Sadism taken to its existence.

00:56:34.980 But imagine that

00:56:35.860 with a theological framework

00:56:37.740 around it,

00:56:39.160 such as the kind

00:56:40.080 that jihadists have.

00:56:41.980 This is why,

00:56:42.800 when you ask

00:56:43.280 why I sort of

00:56:45.540 was mulling on this,

00:56:46.740 it was because of something

00:56:47.760 I couldn't get out of my head

00:56:50.040 from the seventh onwards,

00:56:51.380 which was that the...

00:56:55.640 I've seen quite a lot of war

00:56:58.340 and how people act in war.

00:57:01.580 and regard myself

00:57:05.340 as relatively unshockable.

00:57:10.240 Or at least aware

00:57:12.000 of the capacity

00:57:13.680 of human evil.

00:57:16.260 But from the moment

00:57:18.040 I started seeing the videos

00:57:19.840 that Hamas took themselves

00:57:22.040 on the morning.

00:57:24.460 And I started seeing them

00:57:26.080 very early.

00:57:26.680 I then saw

00:57:27.600 an awful lot of them

00:57:29.160 and then far more

00:57:30.680 even before going

00:57:31.460 to the massacre sites myself

00:57:32.900 and the hospitals

00:57:33.740 and the morgues

00:57:34.440 and so on.

00:57:35.680 But

00:57:36.120 one of the things

00:57:37.520 I could not get out

00:57:38.800 of my head

00:57:39.520 was the glee.

00:57:43.500 The sheer

00:57:44.460 orgiastic glee

00:57:46.120 of the terrorists.

00:57:47.260 At least the Nazis

00:57:48.940 tried to hide

00:57:49.700 their crimes.

00:57:50.580 Well,

00:57:51.200 this is a point

00:57:52.540 I've made

00:57:53.020 that has occasionally

00:57:54.140 got me into trouble.

00:57:55.120 You know,

00:57:55.360 it's not...

00:57:58.140 What happened

00:57:59.280 on the seventh

00:57:59.820 was as if

00:58:01.420 for some hours

00:58:05.260 in Treblinka

00:58:06.100 the Nazis

00:58:07.460 had live-streamed

00:58:08.800 to the world

00:58:09.820 what they were doing

00:58:11.000 and were proud of it

00:58:14.120 and wanted everyone

00:58:15.160 to know.

00:58:15.980 And then the universities

00:58:17.680 celebrated it.

00:58:19.000 I quote

00:58:20.640 a late friend of mine

00:58:22.120 early in the book

00:58:22.840 as you know

00:58:23.320 who fled Nazi Germany

00:58:24.640 Nazi Austria

00:58:26.660 in 1938

00:58:27.460 and he said

00:58:29.440 towards the end

00:58:29.920 of his life

00:58:30.360 to me

00:58:30.700 and to a historian friend

00:58:32.440 he said

00:58:32.960 that he had spent

00:58:33.880 his last years

00:58:34.400 thinking actually

00:58:35.080 maybe there was

00:58:35.980 a level of

00:58:36.700 anti-Semitism

00:58:37.600 even worse

00:58:38.540 than the Nazis.

00:58:40.620 Well,

00:58:40.800 hell is a bottomless pit

00:58:42.000 you know.

00:58:42.520 Absolutely.

00:58:43.100 Really.

00:58:43.360 And it required

00:58:45.060 somebody who had

00:58:46.060 fled Nazism

00:58:47.660 and lost much

00:58:48.700 of his family

00:58:49.260 to Nazism

00:58:49.940 to be able to

00:58:50.660 in a way

00:58:51.720 make that point.

00:58:52.700 But the thing

00:58:53.220 we don't need

00:58:54.460 to get into

00:58:54.880 the competition

00:58:55.500 of as it were

00:58:56.180 which is how

00:58:56.620 people see it

00:58:57.260 but

00:58:57.440 it doesn't

00:58:59.760 diminish anything

00:59:00.780 but this

00:59:02.880 this thing

00:59:04.800 of

00:59:05.440 the ecstasy

00:59:07.600 in death

00:59:08.320 the ecstasy

00:59:10.140 in bringing death

00:59:11.320 the

00:59:12.200 I quote

00:59:12.760 the young man

00:59:13.480 who phones back

00:59:15.000 to his family

00:59:15.900 in Gaza

00:59:16.540 on a cell phone

00:59:17.480 and says

00:59:18.160 father

00:59:18.820 father

00:59:19.260 I've killed

00:59:19.780 ten Jews

00:59:20.400 in my own hands

00:59:21.080 I've killed

00:59:21.500 ten Jews

00:59:22.140 get mother

00:59:22.940 on the phone

00:59:23.520 turn on to

00:59:24.980 turn on to

00:59:26.260 WhatsApp video

00:59:27.120 I can show you

00:59:28.440 The endless

00:59:31.520 cries of

00:59:32.220 Allahu Akbar

00:59:33.060 which as I said

00:59:34.180 shortly after

00:59:34.820 the seventh

00:59:35.060 is not something

00:59:35.640 I wanted to hear

00:59:36.440 chanted on

00:59:37.140 our streets

00:59:38.200 much more

00:59:38.920 knowing this

00:59:39.980 isn't simply

00:59:40.860 an offering

00:59:42.140 of prayer

00:59:42.780 like the Lord's

00:59:43.820 prayer

00:59:44.100 and if

00:59:45.500 Christians

00:59:46.040 had in recent

00:59:47.060 memory been

00:59:47.860 massacring people

00:59:49.220 whilst screaming

00:59:50.420 the Lord's

00:59:51.160 prayer in ecstasy

00:59:52.240 I think that

00:59:53.040 Christians would

00:59:53.560 have the decency

00:59:54.300 to pipe down

00:59:55.200 a bit about

00:59:56.020 shouting it in

00:59:56.800 public squares

00:59:57.640 en masse

00:59:59.400 but the cry

01:00:01.020 of Allahu Akbar

01:00:01.900 that has

01:00:02.580 that we're

01:00:03.540 forever told

01:00:04.140 is now

01:00:04.760 is simply

01:00:05.480 like

01:00:05.940 it's just

01:00:07.020 a prayer

01:00:07.520 like saying

01:00:08.860 seek Heil

01:00:09.900 in America

01:00:11.040 is just

01:00:11.740 a quoting

01:00:12.440 of German

01:00:13.000 the use

01:00:16.400 of Allahu Akbar

01:00:17.360 by the terrorists

01:00:18.600 as they're

01:00:20.400 removing

01:00:21.760 a young man's

01:00:22.580 head with a

01:00:23.180 shovel

01:00:23.520 or raping

01:00:26.000 girls

01:00:26.520 and then

01:00:26.980 killing them

01:00:27.580 you need

01:00:29.620 a cover

01:00:29.960 story

01:00:30.400 for your

01:00:30.840 sadism

01:00:31.340 Douglas

01:00:31.840 and the

01:00:33.240 most effective

01:00:34.400 cover story

01:00:37.340 for the worst

01:00:37.980 acts of

01:00:38.520 sadism

01:00:39.100 is precisely

01:00:40.520 the use

01:00:41.500 of God's

01:00:42.080 name in

01:00:42.520 vain

01:00:42.800 right

01:00:43.160 because then

01:00:43.680 you combine

01:00:44.220 the worst

01:00:44.800 possible sin

01:00:45.960 which is

01:00:46.560 demeaning

01:00:47.120 of what's

01:00:47.660 most high

01:00:48.400 with the

01:00:49.300 worst possible

01:00:50.220 action

01:00:50.720 with the

01:00:51.260 gleeful

01:00:51.920 delight

01:00:52.340 in the

01:00:52.660 suffering

01:00:53.000 of others

01:00:53.460 and what

01:00:54.160 do you get

01:00:54.580 you get

01:00:54.920 two for

01:00:55.820 one

01:00:56.140 if you're

01:00:56.680 on the

01:00:57.520 side of

01:00:57.880 the sadist

01:00:58.480 you know

01:00:58.840 when

01:00:59.220 psychologists

01:01:00.220 started to

01:01:01.700 study

01:01:02.100 non

01:01:03.540 what would

01:01:05.360 you say

01:01:05.720 the manifestation

01:01:06.400 of psychopathy

01:01:07.480 in the normative

01:01:08.080 population

01:01:08.800 they identified

01:01:09.580 three cardinal

01:01:10.520 traits to begin

01:01:11.500 with

01:01:11.780 Machiavellianism

01:01:12.880 use of language

01:01:14.360 for instrumental

01:01:15.080 purposes

01:01:15.720 if I'm a

01:01:16.580 Machiavellian

01:01:17.280 the only reason

01:01:18.260 I'm communicating

01:01:18.880 with you

01:01:19.400 is to gain

01:01:20.080 something

01:01:20.660 only for

01:01:21.720 me

01:01:22.180 now

01:01:22.860 right

01:01:23.420 no

01:01:23.800 communicative

01:01:24.420 intent

01:01:24.740 other than

01:01:25.180 that

01:01:25.480 right

01:01:26.180 so it's

01:01:26.480 a false

01:01:26.940 offering

01:01:27.500 psychopathy

01:01:29.240 so that's

01:01:30.800 parasitic

01:01:31.500 parasitical

01:01:32.500 predation

01:01:33.380 right

01:01:33.920 and

01:01:34.660 narcissism

01:01:36.680 the desire

01:01:37.600 for unearned

01:01:38.460 status

01:01:38.980 okay

01:01:39.420 well that was

01:01:40.000 the dark

01:01:40.440 triad

01:01:41.260 but they had

01:01:41.960 to add

01:01:42.400 sadism

01:01:43.000 to it

01:01:43.520 because

01:01:44.120 those three

01:01:45.320 things in

01:01:46.000 combination

01:01:46.540 appear to

01:01:47.180 inevitably

01:01:48.080 lead to

01:01:49.080 sadism

01:01:50.280 which is

01:01:50.680 exactly

01:01:51.160 that

01:01:51.460 gleeful

01:01:51.840 delight

01:01:52.200 and then

01:01:52.580 once you've

01:01:53.840 compiled

01:01:54.260 those four

01:01:55.100 demonic

01:01:55.960 traits

01:01:56.540 within you

01:01:57.320 once you've

01:01:57.840 turned yourself

01:01:58.500 over to that

01:01:59.120 spirit

01:01:59.520 why wouldn't

01:02:00.460 you claim

01:02:00.920 that you're

01:02:01.320 doing it

01:02:01.720 in the name

01:02:02.080 of what's

01:02:02.460 highest

01:02:02.820 how the

01:02:03.400 hell else

01:02:03.880 would you

01:02:04.180 live with

01:02:04.640 yourself

01:02:05.040 how would

01:02:07.040 you not

01:02:07.480 stop your

01:02:08.160 soul

01:02:08.560 from shredding

01:02:09.580 well and

01:02:10.280 it is part

01:02:11.700 of that

01:02:12.200 satanic

01:02:14.280 delight

01:02:15.300 to take

01:02:16.620 what's

01:02:17.060 highest

01:02:17.560 and to

01:02:18.180 subvert

01:02:18.780 most

01:02:19.240 entirely

01:02:20.020 yeah

01:02:20.840 they

01:02:22.020 yes

01:02:23.500 this is

01:02:25.260 these are

01:02:27.920 bottomless

01:02:28.820 pits

01:02:29.340 as you

01:02:30.080 say

01:02:30.400 Jordan

01:02:30.840 but

01:02:31.320 there is

01:02:33.260 something

01:02:33.540 I think

01:02:33.860 one can

01:02:34.180 say

01:02:34.420 about

01:02:34.700 the

01:02:34.880 awareness

01:02:35.420 of what

01:02:36.020 you're

01:02:36.240 doing

01:02:36.600 as being

01:02:37.140 wrong

01:02:37.600 to this

01:02:38.640 extent

01:02:39.140 and still

01:02:41.320 enjoying it

01:02:42.140 there's a

01:02:42.560 story

01:02:42.900 I tell

01:02:43.380 you're enjoying

01:02:43.900 it because

01:02:44.360 it's wrong

01:02:45.020 right

01:02:45.840 that's part

01:02:46.380 of that

01:02:46.580 well also

01:02:47.640 with another

01:02:48.580 layer which

01:02:49.320 is that you

01:02:49.940 have been

01:02:50.340 taught that the

01:02:51.140 people you're

01:02:51.620 doing this to

01:02:52.600 are subhuman

01:02:53.580 yeah and you're

01:02:54.240 pretty damn

01:02:54.860 willing to learn

01:02:55.560 it too because

01:02:56.260 boy that gives

01:02:57.400 you absolute

01:02:58.060 license to do

01:02:59.040 whatever the

01:02:59.600 hell whatever

01:03:00.560 possesses you

01:03:01.400 wants you to

01:03:02.120 do

01:03:02.400 there was one

01:03:02.980 there was a

01:03:04.220 rather heavy

01:03:05.760 I'll do it

01:03:06.080 quickly but a

01:03:06.520 rather heavy

01:03:07.020 day when I

01:03:09.400 went in to see

01:03:10.080 the Hamas

01:03:10.580 terrorists

01:03:11.220 that had

01:03:12.020 been captured

01:03:12.880 alive

01:03:13.600 and one

01:03:15.440 of them I

01:03:15.760 recognized

01:03:16.260 and that

01:03:17.780 was a moment

01:03:18.420 where I

01:03:18.980 really did

01:03:19.460 think again

01:03:20.220 about the

01:03:20.780 nature of

01:03:21.280 evil and

01:03:22.060 yes it's

01:03:22.520 hard not to

01:03:23.140 think of it

01:03:23.500 in a theological

01:03:24.040 context in

01:03:24.840 this

01:03:25.040 there was

01:03:26.980 a family

01:03:30.520 who on the

01:03:31.320 seventh were

01:03:32.320 in their home

01:03:32.980 in a small

01:03:33.420 community in

01:03:33.980 the south

01:03:34.400 and the

01:03:36.840 oldest boy

01:03:38.340 was a

01:03:38.640 teenager

01:03:39.080 had already

01:03:40.900 gone to

01:03:41.180 the beach

01:03:41.460 with friends

01:03:42.040 and the

01:03:42.660 landing craft

01:03:43.360 of Hamas

01:03:43.780 came in

01:03:44.220 and they

01:03:44.460 killed him

01:03:45.020 and his

01:03:45.300 friends

01:03:45.700 and then

01:03:46.900 they went

01:03:47.440 to the

01:03:47.680 community

01:03:48.100 and the

01:03:50.000 father of

01:03:51.300 the family

01:03:51.780 was there

01:03:52.420 in the

01:03:52.660 house

01:03:52.980 and ran

01:03:53.840 into the

01:03:54.160 bomb shelter

01:03:54.740 with his

01:03:55.220 two teenage

01:03:56.020 sons

01:03:56.420 I think the

01:03:56.940 boys were

01:03:57.380 10 and

01:03:57.840 12 or

01:03:59.120 thereabouts

01:03:59.740 and the

01:04:01.640 terrorists

01:04:02.360 came in

01:04:03.540 and the

01:04:04.460 father

01:04:04.800 I've seen

01:04:05.640 the video

01:04:06.640 several times

01:04:07.260 it's

01:04:08.160 pretty gruesome

01:04:10.240 but the

01:04:10.640 father takes

01:04:13.100 his two

01:04:13.660 sons into

01:04:14.320 the bomb

01:04:14.660 shelter with

01:04:15.200 him and

01:04:15.420 the Hamas

01:04:15.900 throw a

01:04:17.060 grenade in

01:04:17.820 and the

01:04:20.280 father

01:04:20.900 threw himself

01:04:24.120 onto the

01:04:24.520 grenade

01:04:24.860 to save

01:04:26.120 his sons

01:04:26.620 and they

01:04:29.400 come out

01:04:30.180 of the

01:04:30.520 shelter

01:04:30.860 staggering

01:04:31.720 both in

01:04:33.360 their underwear

01:04:33.800 and one

01:04:35.620 of them

01:04:35.920 his eye

01:04:36.800 had been

01:04:37.100 blown out

01:04:37.480 of his

01:04:37.720 socket

01:04:38.020 and the

01:04:38.840 other

01:04:39.000 one had

01:04:39.320 lost

01:04:39.540 his

01:04:39.700 hearing

01:04:40.140 his ear

01:04:40.940 was

01:04:41.220 off

01:04:41.740 and

01:04:41.960 they come

01:04:43.380 into the

01:04:43.700 main room

01:04:44.060 of the

01:04:44.240 house

01:04:44.520 and again

01:04:44.900 it's all

01:04:45.260 on video

01:04:45.740 and they're

01:04:47.840 both completely

01:04:48.740 disorientated

01:04:51.140 of course

01:04:51.520 one of them

01:04:51.980 is saying

01:04:52.420 where's

01:04:53.040 father

01:04:53.400 and the

01:04:53.620 other one

01:04:53.840 is saying

01:04:54.100 didn't you

01:04:54.480 see him

01:04:54.920 and then

01:04:57.580 the terrorist

01:04:58.660 who killed

01:04:59.560 their father

01:05:00.300 walks into

01:05:01.220 the room

01:05:01.660 with a

01:05:01.940 Kalashnikov

01:05:02.720 and just

01:05:04.920 looks at

01:05:06.500 the boys

01:05:07.080 goes to

01:05:08.220 the fridge

01:05:08.700 opens the

01:05:09.480 fridge

01:05:09.760 and gets

01:05:10.180 out a

01:05:10.500 Diet Coke

01:05:11.080 and starts

01:05:11.700 drinking it

01:05:12.420 in front

01:05:12.820 of them

01:05:13.180 and also

01:05:16.980 later asks

01:05:17.660 where their

01:05:18.080 mother

01:05:18.300 that's how

01:05:18.580 you demonstrate

01:05:19.240 that the

01:05:19.860 suffering

01:05:20.200 is irrelevant

01:05:20.860 picture this

01:05:22.660 you open

01:05:23.260 your browsing

01:05:23.760 history

01:05:24.260 print it

01:05:24.780 out

01:05:24.980 sign your

01:05:25.460 name at

01:05:25.720 the bottom

01:05:26.100 and nail

01:05:26.640 it to your

01:05:27.020 front door

01:05:27.560 for all

01:05:28.000 your neighbors

01:05:28.460 to see

01:05:28.920 while you're

01:05:29.500 at it

01:05:29.800 why not

01:05:30.280 display it

01:05:30.900 on a

01:05:31.140 billboard

01:05:31.580 along a

01:05:32.060 major highway

01:05:32.800 sounds absurd

01:05:33.700 right

01:05:34.000 yet that's

01:05:34.680 essentially

01:05:35.080 what most

01:05:35.600 of us do

01:05:36.020 every day

01:05:36.560 online

01:05:37.080 unless

01:05:37.740 you're

01:05:38.180 already

01:05:38.540 protected

01:05:39.000 by

01:05:39.260 ExpressVPN

01:05:39.940 the sponsor

01:05:40.920 of this

01:05:41.380 video

01:05:41.760 internet

01:05:42.280 providers

01:05:42.800 can track

01:05:43.240 every

01:05:43.580 website

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01:05:45.620 in

01:05:45.740 incognito

01:05:46.420 mode

01:05:46.760 in many

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01:05:47.780 you're

01:05:47.960 legally

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01:05:48.740 to store

01:05:49.240 your browsing

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01:05:50.380 years

01:05:50.860 just in

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01:05:52.020 government

01:05:52.320 wants access

01:05:53.160 in the

01:05:53.860 US

01:05:54.260 internet

01:05:54.640 service

01:05:55.020 providers

01:05:55.460 can even

01:05:55.980 sell your

01:05:56.400 data to

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01:05:57.920 pay

01:05:58.200 but with

01:05:58.720 ExpressVPN

01:05:59.360 your internet

01:06:00.140 provider

01:06:00.600 simply cannot

01:06:01.380 see

01:06:01.880 record

01:06:02.500 share

01:06:02.960 or sell

01:06:03.680 your browsing

01:06:04.240 history

01:06:04.660 because it's

01:06:05.180 all encrypted

01:06:06.000 both our

01:06:06.820 hosts and

01:06:07.400 production teams

01:06:08.140 here at

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01:06:09.140 use ExpressVPN

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01:06:11.400 daily activity

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01:06:14.860 to hide

01:06:15.340 their IP

01:06:15.820 addresses each

01:06:16.620 day

01:06:16.920 plus ExpressVPN

01:06:18.100 is simple

01:06:18.860 just one tap

01:06:19.820 on any

01:06:20.240 of your

01:06:20.480 devices

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01:06:21.480 privacy

01:06:21.900 is completely

01:06:22.600 protected

01:06:23.120 so if you'd like

01:06:23.940 to join me

01:06:24.480 in fighting

01:06:24.940 for the right

01:06:25.480 to privacy

01:06:26.020 use my

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01:06:27.300 to get

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01:06:30.080 at

01:06:30.460 expressvpn.com

01:06:31.940 slash

01:06:32.280 Jordan

01:06:32.660 that's

01:06:33.340 expressvpn.com

01:06:35.000 slash

01:06:35.380 Jordan

01:06:35.840 right

01:06:38.720 with that

01:06:39.720 casual

01:06:40.460 that casual

01:06:41.620 consumerist

01:06:42.560 gesture

01:06:43.140 yes

01:06:43.640 right

01:06:44.020 and that

01:06:44.500 what would

01:06:45.180 you say

01:06:45.560 that perversion

01:06:46.500 of hospitality

01:06:47.460 so inevitably

01:06:50.840 yes

01:06:51.420 you get to

01:06:52.980 the question

01:06:54.380 of how

01:06:55.640 do so many

01:06:56.520 people get

01:06:57.520 taught this

01:06:58.460 or encouraged

01:06:59.580 into this

01:07:00.300 and I was

01:07:01.500 very struck

01:07:02.960 this is very

01:07:03.560 much in your

01:07:04.060 wheelhouse

01:07:04.480 but one of

01:07:06.240 the reunions

01:07:06.960 of the survivors

01:07:07.780 of the Nova

01:07:08.360 party

01:07:08.760 I got talking

01:07:09.520 to a remarkable

01:07:10.320 woman who was

01:07:10.920 a therapist

01:07:11.380 who was working

01:07:12.020 with them

01:07:12.400 and these were

01:07:13.280 of course

01:07:13.580 all deeply

01:07:14.260 deeply traumatized

01:07:15.280 young people

01:07:15.840 who were

01:07:16.280 you know

01:07:17.800 have difficult

01:07:19.740 time for the

01:07:20.620 rest of their

01:07:20.980 lives

01:07:21.300 and

01:07:24.160 but there

01:07:25.540 was a therapist

01:07:26.160 who'd been

01:07:26.520 working with them

01:07:27.140 who I spoke

01:07:27.780 with who said

01:07:28.780 said to me

01:07:29.720 then and it

01:07:30.180 was something

01:07:30.420 I thought about

01:07:30.860 a lot

01:07:31.040 which was

01:07:31.420 you know

01:07:32.180 don't forget

01:07:32.900 Douglas

01:07:33.320 that a

01:07:33.780 psychopath

01:07:34.200 is probably

01:07:35.020 born

01:07:35.640 Cinois

01:07:37.160 was a type

01:07:39.820 of psychopath

01:07:40.300 clearly

01:07:41.080 but she said

01:07:42.700 don't forget

01:07:43.140 sociopaths

01:07:44.180 you have

01:07:44.460 to make

01:07:45.060 and that

01:07:47.260 was something

01:07:47.700 I thought

01:07:48.100 about a lot

01:07:48.600 because of

01:07:49.100 course

01:07:49.300 what would

01:07:50.180 happen

01:07:50.680 if you had

01:07:51.840 control

01:07:52.460 of a civilian

01:07:53.220 population

01:07:54.000 like the

01:07:55.520 almost 2 million

01:07:56.440 people in

01:07:57.040 Gaza

01:07:57.420 a population

01:07:59.060 that doubled

01:07:59.620 in the time

01:08:00.200 that Israel

01:08:01.740 was said

01:08:02.420 to be doing

01:08:02.780 a genocide

01:08:03.280 there by the

01:08:03.860 way

01:08:04.000 but part of

01:08:05.060 that aside

01:08:05.440 is a mere

01:08:05.840 fact

01:08:06.260 what would

01:08:08.080 you do

01:08:08.500 if you had

01:08:09.060 a civilian

01:08:09.560 population

01:08:10.200 for 18

01:08:11.040 years

01:08:11.760 and you

01:08:12.700 were a

01:08:13.020 death cult

01:08:13.660 and you

01:08:14.200 ruled it

01:08:14.820 you would

01:08:16.460 teach

01:08:17.000 what Hamaz

01:08:18.660 taught in

01:08:19.300 Gaza

01:08:19.660 which was

01:08:21.140 to teach

01:08:21.720 the young

01:08:22.320 Gazan

01:08:23.000 Palestinians

01:08:23.840 how to

01:08:25.840 join the

01:08:26.320 death cult

01:08:26.920 to admire

01:08:28.920 it

01:08:29.300 to be part

01:08:30.180 of it

01:08:30.640 so that

01:08:32.020 when

01:08:32.300 to strive

01:08:32.720 for attainment

01:08:33.580 to strive

01:08:33.840 for it

01:08:34.480 it's all

01:08:37.020 very well

01:08:37.580 documented

01:08:38.220 but the

01:08:38.840 soldiers

01:08:39.220 who were

01:08:39.560 going

01:08:39.840 house

01:08:40.160 to

01:08:40.320 house

01:08:40.640 in

01:08:41.180 2014

01:08:42.260 there

01:08:42.580 was

01:08:42.680 a

01:08:42.780 relatively

01:08:43.060 minor

01:08:43.420 war

01:08:43.700 in

01:08:43.840 Gaza

01:08:44.100 compared

01:08:44.440 to

01:08:44.600 this

01:08:44.800 one

01:08:45.040 and

01:08:46.320 there

01:08:46.980 were

01:08:47.040 many

01:08:47.220 soldiers

01:08:47.500 I

01:08:47.640 spoke

01:08:47.860 to

01:08:48.060 who

01:08:48.240 were

01:08:48.340 involved

01:08:48.800 in

01:08:48.980 the

01:08:49.100 minor

01:08:49.460 conflict

01:08:50.220 in

01:08:50.440 2014

01:08:50.940 who

01:08:51.500 were

01:08:51.640 also

01:08:52.000 in

01:08:52.900 Gaza

01:08:53.220 since

01:08:53.820 October

01:08:54.700 2023

01:08:55.340 they

01:08:56.300 all

01:08:56.560 said

01:08:56.960 that

01:08:57.200 they

01:08:57.360 noticed

01:08:57.840 when

01:08:58.600 they

01:08:58.760 did

01:08:58.940 house

01:08:59.240 to

01:08:59.420 house

01:08:59.900 clearing

01:09:00.860 going

01:09:02.100 through

01:09:02.360 trying

01:09:02.640 to find

01:09:03.080 hostages

01:09:03.660 trying

01:09:03.940 to

01:09:04.120 find

01:09:04.340 weapons

01:09:04.760 trying

01:09:05.020 to

01:09:05.140 find

01:09:05.300 tunnel

01:09:05.580 entrances

01:09:06.020 and

01:09:06.480 trying

01:09:06.680 to

01:09:06.820 find

01:09:07.000 the

01:09:07.160 architects

01:09:07.600 of

01:09:07.820 the

01:09:07.940 massacre

01:09:08.340 they

01:09:09.040 all

01:09:09.180 said

01:09:09.300 the

01:09:09.420 same

01:09:09.560 thing

01:09:09.820 which

01:09:10.040 was

01:09:10.240 in

01:09:10.700 10

01:09:11.040 years

01:09:11.600 there

01:09:12.080 was

01:09:12.200 a

01:09:12.360 marked

01:09:12.700 radicalization

01:09:13.620 in

01:09:13.940 the

01:09:14.140 books

01:09:14.520 in

01:09:14.900 the

01:09:15.020 households

01:09:15.540 in

01:09:16.200 the

01:09:16.380 learning

01:09:16.760 materials

01:09:17.400 in

01:09:17.580 everything

01:09:17.960 from

01:09:18.400 and

01:09:18.580 it's

01:09:18.740 not

01:09:19.040 satire

01:09:19.640 you

01:09:20.840 know

01:09:21.020 math

01:09:21.620 textbooks

01:09:22.280 of

01:09:22.800 you

01:09:22.900 know

01:09:23.020 if you

01:09:23.260 kill

01:09:23.500 two

01:09:23.840 Jews

01:09:24.200 and

01:09:24.380 kill

01:09:24.600 another

01:09:24.860 two

01:09:25.180 Jews

01:09:25.460 how

01:09:25.620 many

01:09:25.820 dead

01:09:26.080 Jews

01:09:26.380 do

01:09:26.520 have

01:09:26.840 this

01:09:27.140 is

01:09:27.300 the

01:09:27.420 way

01:09:27.560 you

01:09:27.700 learn

01:09:27.920 arithmetic

01:09:28.440 in

01:09:29.440 Gaza

01:09:29.880 under

01:09:30.220 Hamas

01:09:30.620 this

01:09:33.100 is

01:09:33.420 something

01:09:35.140 that

01:09:35.440 many

01:09:35.780 of

01:09:36.000 us

01:09:36.200 noticed

01:09:36.580 and

01:09:36.740 had

01:09:36.860 warned

01:09:37.220 about

01:09:37.540 for

01:09:37.760 years

01:09:38.180 but

01:09:38.460 the

01:09:39.060 fruit

01:09:39.520 of

01:09:40.000 this

01:09:40.240 education

01:09:40.840 system

01:09:41.360 the

01:09:41.600 fruit

01:09:41.880 of

01:09:42.060 this

01:09:42.260 indoctrination

01:09:43.120 was

01:09:43.860 October

01:09:44.300 the

01:09:44.520 7th

01:09:45.220 and

01:09:45.480 look

01:09:45.680 at

01:09:45.800 it

01:09:45.960 it

01:09:46.100 was

01:09:47.900 a

01:09:48.060 catastrophe

01:09:48.620 for

01:09:49.060 the

01:09:49.160 Israelis

01:09:49.480 and

01:09:49.680 it

01:09:49.760 turned

01:09:50.080 out

01:09:50.320 to

01:09:50.400 be

01:09:50.500 an

01:09:50.660 utter

01:09:50.940 disaster

01:09:51.540 for

01:09:51.780 the

01:09:51.940 citizens

01:09:52.300 of

01:09:52.540 Gaza

01:09:52.660 There's

01:09:52.860 an

01:09:53.020 immaturity

01:09:53.820 and

01:09:54.180 self-centeredness

01:09:55.320 about

01:09:55.740 psychopathy

01:09:56.920 that's

01:09:58.120 probably

01:09:58.680 intrinsic

01:09:59.460 so

01:10:01.200 and

01:10:01.920 it

01:10:02.700 does

01:10:02.960 vary

01:10:03.280 to

01:10:03.480 some

01:10:03.680 degree

01:10:03.980 with

01:10:04.200 temperament

01:10:04.860 like

01:10:05.200 there

01:10:05.460 are

01:10:05.700 violent

01:10:06.220 two-year-olds

01:10:07.080 most

01:10:08.160 of them

01:10:08.520 are

01:10:08.700 socialized

01:10:09.300 by the

01:10:09.660 time

01:10:09.880 they're

01:10:10.080 four

01:10:10.500 and

01:10:11.120 the

01:10:11.240 ones

01:10:11.460 who

01:10:11.640 aren't

01:10:11.920 are

01:10:12.080 never

01:10:12.420 socialized

01:10:13.300 they

01:10:13.740 burn

01:10:14.120 out

01:10:14.360 in

01:10:14.500 their

01:10:14.660 twenties

01:10:15.160 but

01:10:16.240 immaturity

01:10:17.440 itself

01:10:18.040 is

01:10:18.600 egocentric

01:10:19.460 and

01:10:20.180 pleasure

01:10:20.620 seeking

01:10:21.140 and

01:10:21.820 power

01:10:22.340 dominant

01:10:22.840 and

01:10:23.480 there's

01:10:23.640 no reason

01:10:24.180 to

01:10:24.440 assume

01:10:24.840 that

01:10:25.100 you

01:10:25.300 couldn't

01:10:25.760 maximize

01:10:26.320 that

01:10:26.880 with

01:10:27.120 the

01:10:27.280 proper

01:10:27.560 training

01:10:28.060 I mean

01:10:29.080 we train

01:10:29.760 people

01:10:30.100 I know

01:10:30.940 it's

01:10:31.220 a rough

01:10:31.860 realization

01:10:33.260 if

01:10:33.820 your

01:10:34.240 soul

01:10:34.600 is

01:10:34.820 Rousseau

01:10:35.280 and

01:10:35.500 you

01:10:35.760 believe

01:10:36.140 that

01:10:36.380 there's

01:10:36.640 nothing

01:10:36.900 but

01:10:37.120 good

01:10:37.360 in

01:10:37.500 the

01:10:37.620 heart

01:10:37.840 even

01:10:38.360 of

01:10:38.560 children

01:10:38.940 and

01:10:39.200 it's

01:10:39.740 not

01:10:39.940 that

01:10:40.120 I

01:10:40.260 have

01:10:40.460 anything

01:10:40.760 against

01:10:41.180 children

01:10:41.620 and

01:10:41.840 I

01:10:41.980 think

01:10:42.180 they're

01:10:42.380 delightful

01:10:42.840 but

01:10:43.280 before

01:10:44.860 they're

01:10:45.400 socialized

01:10:46.240 they're

01:10:46.540 not

01:10:46.880 social

01:10:47.480 yes

01:10:48.660 and

01:10:48.880 so

01:10:49.140 it's

01:10:49.720 not

01:10:50.000 that

01:10:50.460 hard

01:10:50.980 to

01:10:51.300 maintain

01:10:52.140 not

01:10:53.040 being

01:10:53.500 social

01:10:54.080 and

01:10:55.140 then

01:10:55.280 the

01:10:55.460 consequence

01:10:55.900 of

01:10:56.220 not

01:10:56.440 being

01:10:56.680 social

01:10:57.060 is

01:10:57.300 you're

01:10:57.500 alienated

01:10:58.100 you

01:10:58.280 trust

01:10:58.620 no

01:10:58.920 one

01:10:59.260 so

01:11:00.500 then

01:11:02.940 you live

01:11:03.320 in a

01:11:03.560 society

01:11:04.000 where

01:11:04.340 what's

01:11:05.640 it like

01:11:05.940 to live

01:11:06.260 in a

01:11:06.480 society

01:11:06.860 where

01:11:07.140 you

01:11:07.320 can

01:11:07.500 trust

01:11:07.820 no

01:11:08.100 one

01:11:08.380 where

01:11:09.140 there's

01:11:09.340 no

01:11:09.520 social

01:11:09.960 groupings

01:11:10.620 where

01:11:10.980 everyone's

01:11:11.420 hell

01:11:11.640 bent

01:11:11.960 on

01:11:12.200 destruction

01:11:12.840 it's

01:11:14.220 going

01:11:14.360 to

01:11:14.480 turn

01:11:14.760 you

01:11:14.920 against

01:11:15.260 the

01:11:15.520 world

01:11:15.940 and

01:11:16.780 that's

01:11:16.980 a

01:11:17.120 temptation

01:11:17.580 to

01:11:17.800 begin

01:11:18.020 with

01:11:18.240 you

01:11:18.360 know

01:11:18.560 in

01:11:18.700 the

01:11:18.840 Cain

01:11:19.020 and

01:11:19.160 Abel

01:11:19.400 story

01:11:22.140 is

01:11:22.440 to

01:11:22.640 nurse

01:11:23.000 resentment

01:11:23.620 in

01:11:25.220 consequence

01:11:25.780 of

01:11:26.220 his

01:11:26.500 of

01:11:27.280 the

01:11:27.460 failure

01:11:27.880 of

01:11:28.120 his

01:11:28.300 second

01:11:28.640 rate

01:11:28.880 offerings

01:11:29.440 instead

01:11:30.180 of

01:11:30.400 to

01:11:30.600 learn

01:11:31.040 and

01:11:31.760 he

01:11:31.900 kills

01:11:32.320 Abel

01:11:32.720 and

01:11:32.880 he

01:11:33.060 fathers

01:11:33.520 the

01:11:33.920 genocidal

01:11:34.680 masses

01:11:35.260 this is

01:11:36.300 one of

01:11:37.280 my

01:11:37.600 conclusions

01:11:39.300 about

01:11:39.760 the

01:11:39.960 nature

01:11:40.280 of

01:11:40.680 specifically

01:11:41.840 of

01:11:42.060 antisemitism

01:11:42.760 goes

01:11:43.080 back

01:11:43.260 to

01:11:43.380 that

01:11:43.500 Grossman

01:11:43.900 quote

01:11:44.260 that

01:11:45.240 it

01:11:45.380 acts

01:11:45.740 as

01:11:45.940 a

01:11:46.140 mirror

01:11:46.400 to

01:11:46.880 the

01:11:47.040 failings

01:11:47.700 of

01:11:48.240 the

01:11:48.380 person

01:11:48.700 who

01:11:48.900 suffers

01:11:49.220 from

01:11:49.540 it

01:11:49.740 so

01:11:50.700 that

01:11:50.900 for

01:11:51.080 instance

01:11:51.460 Israel's

01:11:52.020 neighbors

01:11:52.360 could

01:11:52.780 notice

01:11:53.460 that

01:11:54.080 the

01:11:55.420 society

01:11:56.100 is

01:11:56.660 GDP

01:11:57.520 the

01:11:58.960 Abraham

01:11:59.340 Accord

01:11:59.800 signatories

01:12:00.540 deigned to

01:12:01.620 notice that

01:12:02.260 and thank

01:12:02.820 God

01:12:03.160 for some

01:12:03.700 small

01:12:04.220 mercy

01:12:04.560 that

01:12:04.740 this

01:12:04.940 country

01:12:05.340 is doing

01:12:05.800 awfully

01:12:06.180 well

01:12:06.760 considering

01:12:08.760 the

01:12:09.360 existential

01:12:09.820 threat

01:12:10.480 to it

01:12:10.880 constantly

01:12:11.520 from its

01:12:11.940 neighbors

01:12:12.240 since

01:12:12.580 literally

01:12:13.600 the

01:12:13.840 minute

01:12:14.080 of its

01:12:14.440 creation

01:12:14.800 in

01:12:15.020 1948

01:12:15.460 there

01:12:16.360 there

01:12:16.380 no

01:12:16.780 land

01:12:17.220 except

01:12:17.620 desert

01:12:18.140 there

01:12:18.400 there

01:12:18.460 is

01:12:18.600 no

01:12:18.800 water

01:12:19.320 there

01:12:19.760 there

01:12:19.780 is

01:12:19.960 no

01:12:20.080 oil

01:12:20.500 there

01:12:20.920 is

01:12:21.440 no

01:12:21.760 oil

01:12:21.960 it's

01:12:22.060 one

01:12:22.320 darn

01:12:22.780 bit

01:12:23.000 of

01:12:23.100 the

01:12:23.220 region

01:12:23.500 where

01:12:23.720 there's

01:12:23.860 no

01:12:24.060 oil

01:12:24.360 and

01:12:25.340 and yet

01:12:26.280 they

01:12:26.420 make a

01:12:26.740 success

01:12:27.080 of it

01:12:27.440 and if

01:12:28.280 you look

01:12:28.620 around

01:12:28.880 the rest

01:12:29.300 of the

01:12:29.540 region

01:12:29.860 and you

01:12:30.200 see

01:12:30.320 colonial

01:12:30.520 enterprise

01:12:31.300 Douglas

01:12:31.740 I

01:12:32.080 know

01:12:32.380 you

01:12:32.900 but you

01:12:33.800 look around

01:12:34.200 the rest

01:12:34.500 of the

01:12:34.700 region

01:12:34.980 if you

01:12:35.340 were

01:12:35.460 Israel's

01:12:35.820 neighbors

01:12:36.140 in

01:12:36.480 Jordan

01:12:38.040 or

01:12:38.400 Egypt

01:12:38.940 or

01:12:39.320 certainly

01:12:39.780 you know

01:12:40.180 Gaza

01:12:41.320 and

01:12:41.760 Saudi

01:12:43.980 anywhere

01:12:46.280 it's a

01:12:47.980 perfect

01:12:48.280 subject

01:12:48.700 for

01:12:48.940 resentment

01:12:49.280 they're

01:12:49.600 all

01:12:49.780 victims

01:12:50.200 of

01:12:50.580 the

01:12:50.780 colonial

01:12:51.100 enterprise

01:12:51.720 right

01:12:52.280 they

01:12:52.800 bear

01:12:53.040 no

01:12:53.280 responsibility

01:12:54.020 for

01:12:54.580 their

01:12:54.740 own

01:12:55.020 misery

01:12:55.400 there's

01:12:55.780 endlessly

01:12:56.260 someone

01:12:56.640 to

01:12:56.840 blame

01:12:57.200 that's

01:12:58.520 convenient

01:12:58.920 that's

01:12:59.380 very

01:12:59.560 convenient

01:12:59.960 very

01:13:00.320 and

01:13:01.180 someone

01:13:01.500 to

01:13:01.720 hate

01:13:02.080 that's

01:13:03.000 even

01:13:03.200 better

01:13:03.720 and

01:13:03.960 that's

01:13:04.160 a

01:13:04.260 great

01:13:04.480 unifying

01:13:05.000 thing

01:13:05.360 among

01:13:05.580 much

01:13:05.900 more

01:13:06.280 and

01:13:07.120 boy

01:13:07.480 the

01:13:07.740 worst

01:13:08.060 of

01:13:08.240 your

01:13:08.400 people

01:13:08.740 can

01:13:08.980 really

01:13:09.220 delight

01:13:09.660 in

01:13:09.900 that

01:13:10.160 and

01:13:10.360 you

01:13:10.500 just

01:13:10.720 have

01:13:10.940 to

01:13:11.100 let

01:13:11.340 them

01:13:11.580 loose

01:13:11.920 and

01:13:12.080 encourage

01:13:12.600 them

01:13:12.920 but

01:13:13.280 just

01:13:13.620 think

01:13:14.800 about

01:13:15.120 how

01:13:15.540 this

01:13:15.880 has

01:13:16.220 how

01:13:17.200 taking

01:13:18.000 the

01:13:18.300 wrong

01:13:18.620 route

01:13:19.220 Cain

01:13:20.400 and Abel

01:13:20.900 like

01:13:21.340 has

01:13:22.400 been

01:13:23.380 such

01:13:23.920 a

01:13:24.100 disaster

01:13:24.680 well

01:13:25.160 Cain's

01:13:25.560 descendants

01:13:26.040 are

01:13:26.380 genocidal

01:13:27.020 and then

01:13:27.460 comes

01:13:27.820 the

01:13:28.060 flood

01:13:28.440 right

01:13:29.520 that's

01:13:30.660 the

01:13:30.880 progression

01:13:31.820 of the

01:13:32.300 story

01:13:32.660 and it's

01:13:33.280 causal

01:13:33.820 it goes

01:13:35.180 from the

01:13:35.600 failure

01:13:35.940 of the

01:13:36.300 individual

01:13:36.880 the

01:13:37.200 willingness

01:13:37.940 to turn

01:13:38.520 to resentment

01:13:39.120 and bitterness

01:13:39.700 and then

01:13:40.240 murderous

01:13:40.900 sadism

01:13:41.400 and then

01:13:41.820 to be

01:13:42.120 the father

01:13:42.620 of the

01:13:43.360 genocidal

01:13:44.000 masses

01:13:44.480 that's one

01:13:45.200 of the

01:13:45.360 reasons why

01:13:46.000 I mean as you know

01:13:46.620 I do get theological

01:13:47.720 in this book

01:13:48.560 eventually because you

01:13:49.400 can't not

01:13:50.280 that's the problem

01:13:53.040 with looking at evil

01:13:54.000 yes

01:13:54.700 yes

01:13:54.720 that's right

01:13:55.520 it's really

01:13:56.100 there's

01:13:56.700 but it's

01:13:58.280 it's two things

01:13:59.080 really Jordan

01:13:59.620 it's first

01:14:00.360 is

01:14:00.960 that as you say

01:14:02.760 I think we agree

01:14:03.380 that it's

01:14:04.300 it's hard to contend

01:14:06.300 with evil

01:14:07.000 unless you have

01:14:09.280 some kind of

01:14:10.100 theological

01:14:10.660 appreciation

01:14:11.660 of it

01:14:12.380 and

01:14:15.200 but the second

01:14:17.580 thing is

01:14:18.180 of course

01:14:18.560 that comes

01:14:18.920 from that

01:14:19.360 is

01:14:19.560 that

01:14:20.320 one of the

01:14:21.460 things I think

01:14:21.880 about in the

01:14:22.180 book is

01:14:22.640 well

01:14:22.900 then what's

01:14:23.820 the opposite

01:14:24.300 of that

01:14:24.860 yeah

01:14:25.120 right

01:14:25.520 well that's

01:14:26.160 that's the

01:14:26.580 next question

01:14:27.320 that arises

01:14:27.960 right

01:14:28.440 is what's

01:14:29.000 that's exactly

01:14:30.100 what

01:14:30.460 what

01:14:31.380 what would

01:14:32.220 you say

01:14:32.560 the sequence

01:14:33.240 of thoughts

01:14:33.860 that occurred

01:14:34.380 to me

01:14:34.760 after I spent

01:14:35.660 20 years

01:14:36.280 studying

01:14:36.860 Auschwitz

01:14:38.140 and the

01:14:38.620 death camps

01:14:39.260 and the

01:14:39.780 Soviet Union

01:14:40.460 and Maoist

01:14:41.080 China

01:14:41.440 it's like

01:14:41.900 well there's

01:14:42.660 hell

01:14:42.980 there's some

01:14:44.500 way out of

01:14:45.460 that

01:14:45.760 there's some

01:14:46.400 place that's

01:14:47.280 not that

01:14:48.260 there's a place

01:14:49.180 that's as far

01:14:50.020 away from that

01:14:51.000 as you could

01:14:52.100 imagine

01:14:52.680 and there's a

01:14:53.820 pathway to that

01:14:54.880 yeah well the

01:14:55.920 mythological landscape

01:14:56.980 is the world of

01:14:57.940 good and evil

01:14:58.580 no doubt about it

01:14:59.800 so let's turn to

01:15:00.680 the end of your

01:15:01.300 book

01:15:01.580 two parts

01:15:03.160 the disconnect

01:15:03.820 we've covered that

01:15:04.800 to some degree

01:15:05.540 from defeat

01:15:06.840 into victory

01:15:07.500 so one of the

01:15:08.520 things that

01:15:09.100 struck me

01:15:09.880 about your

01:15:10.340 book and I

01:15:10.800 believe this

01:15:11.280 to be the

01:15:11.700 case is that

01:15:12.420 as Israel

01:15:13.900 goes

01:15:14.600 so goes

01:15:16.000 the west

01:15:16.620 the reason

01:15:17.500 that we're all

01:15:18.180 obsessed with

01:15:19.140 that part of

01:15:19.820 the world

01:15:20.160 when there's

01:15:20.580 many wars

01:15:21.300 we could be

01:15:21.860 talking about

01:15:22.500 is because

01:15:23.020 what is it

01:15:24.740 the that's

01:15:25.740 where the

01:15:26.760 tire hits

01:15:27.340 the road

01:15:27.840 yes

01:15:28.120 if Israel

01:15:29.160 goes

01:15:29.720 Europe

01:15:30.280 goes

01:15:30.840 well that's

01:15:31.640 that's

01:15:32.280 certainly

01:15:33.320 always been

01:15:33.840 my belief

01:15:34.260 and some

01:15:34.540 people might

01:15:34.960 say well

01:15:35.380 how could

01:15:36.200 a state

01:15:36.660 that's not

01:15:37.180 yet 80

01:15:37.740 years old

01:15:38.500 be so central

01:15:39.540 to the west

01:15:40.420 it's not

01:15:41.980 because it's

01:15:42.700 just any

01:15:43.160 other state

01:15:44.020 and it's

01:15:44.540 not exactly

01:15:45.520 80 years

01:15:46.220 old

01:15:46.580 no

01:15:46.860 and so

01:15:48.060 if you

01:15:49.140 realize

01:15:50.280 if you

01:15:51.760 consider

01:15:52.200 if you

01:15:52.680 begin to

01:15:53.540 contend with

01:15:54.080 what it is

01:15:54.820 the death

01:15:55.240 cults are

01:15:55.820 onto

01:15:56.180 and what

01:15:57.240 their supporters

01:15:57.940 in the west

01:15:58.760 might be

01:15:59.540 onto

01:15:59.900 when they

01:16:02.460 call for

01:16:03.240 the destruction

01:16:03.800 of Israel

01:16:04.420 they always

01:16:05.920 do it

01:16:06.500 as a

01:16:06.860 precursor

01:16:07.540 to the

01:16:07.820 downfall

01:16:08.320 of everyone

01:16:08.720 else

01:16:09.060 in the west

01:16:09.640 and their

01:16:10.980 like Iran

01:16:12.240 for example

01:16:13.060 whether it's

01:16:14.380 the Ayatollahs

01:16:15.360 in Iran

01:16:15.800 with the

01:16:16.180 little Satan

01:16:16.760 Israel

01:16:17.180 great Satan

01:16:17.960 America

01:16:18.520 Britain

01:16:19.940 Canada

01:16:20.480 medium sized

01:16:21.340 Satans

01:16:21.980 whether or not

01:16:23.860 it's the Iranian

01:16:24.820 revolutionary government

01:16:25.740 doing it for that

01:16:26.380 protesters are right

01:16:27.420 or whether it's

01:16:28.200 the vanguard

01:16:28.860 of the west

01:16:29.480 well here's the thing

01:16:31.000 you see

01:16:31.780 when students

01:16:33.060 at Columbia

01:16:33.940 when their group

01:16:36.540 as well as

01:16:37.160 vandalizing

01:16:37.800 their campus

01:16:38.380 chasing Jewish

01:16:40.060 students across

01:16:40.700 campus

01:16:41.220 assaulting janitors

01:16:42.400 and much more

01:16:43.100 all of course

01:16:43.660 in the name of

01:16:44.220 fighting for the

01:16:45.080 oppressed

01:16:45.460 when they call

01:16:47.580 in their statements

01:16:48.240 for the complete

01:16:49.620 destruction of

01:16:50.680 western civilization

01:16:51.680 they do mean it

01:16:54.120 the spirit

01:16:54.720 that possesses

01:16:55.720 them means it

01:16:56.720 it's just that

01:16:57.400 they recognize

01:16:58.620 that a country

01:16:59.980 of 9 million

01:17:00.880 people in the

01:17:01.900 Middle East

01:17:02.400 surrounded by

01:17:03.400 countries that

01:17:04.100 wouldn't mind

01:17:05.180 its demise

01:17:05.920 is an easier

01:17:07.780 thing to destroy

01:17:09.260 than a country

01:17:10.340 of 340 million

01:17:11.720 people like the

01:17:12.360 one we're sitting

01:17:12.960 in

01:17:13.100 of the world

01:17:13.800 right

01:17:14.100 you know

01:17:14.440 it's because

01:17:15.180 the civilized

01:17:16.880 so-called

01:17:17.540 countries of the

01:17:18.360 world are a

01:17:19.000 tiny fraction

01:17:19.820 of the countries

01:17:20.580 of the world

01:17:21.160 and so

01:17:22.140 Israel

01:17:23.000 in its

01:17:24.800 existential

01:17:25.560 condition

01:17:26.220 replicates

01:17:27.040 the condition

01:17:27.720 of the West

01:17:28.400 in a microcosm

01:17:29.580 yes

01:17:30.080 and of course

01:17:31.480 one of the

01:17:34.340 if not the

01:17:35.780 absolutely central

01:17:37.080 things in the West

01:17:38.180 which is the

01:17:38.860 tradition of the

01:17:39.480 Bible

01:17:39.760 that the reason

01:17:42.200 the point I'm

01:17:43.120 getting to is

01:17:43.780 you talked about

01:17:44.440 that in terms of

01:17:45.320 the celebration

01:17:46.220 of life

01:17:46.760 yes

01:17:47.140 life more

01:17:48.120 abundant

01:17:48.580 the point I'm

01:17:49.720 getting to

01:17:50.140 exactly

01:17:50.540 is that

01:17:51.040 when these

01:17:52.080 people

01:17:52.920 whether it's

01:17:53.540 the protesters

01:17:54.100 in the West

01:17:54.800 or the death

01:17:55.540 cult itself

01:17:56.340 in Hamas

01:17:57.580 Hezbollah

01:17:58.900 and others

01:18:00.060 I think they

01:18:02.680 might have

01:18:03.160 chosen their

01:18:03.780 target well

01:18:04.680 I think they're

01:18:06.260 on to something

01:18:07.040 they do know

01:18:08.400 that if you

01:18:09.120 take this out

01:18:10.420 everyone else

01:18:12.400 is vulnerable

01:18:13.000 next

01:18:13.540 it's very clever

01:18:14.540 target selection

01:18:15.760 not just

01:18:17.540 because of

01:18:18.020 size

01:18:18.660 but because of

01:18:19.500 theologically

01:18:20.180 what it means

01:18:22.260 what it means

01:18:24.000 theologically

01:18:24.820 and that's why

01:18:25.900 I get on to

01:18:27.200 this thing

01:18:27.500 that you see

01:18:27.800 again it goes

01:18:28.580 back to your

01:18:28.920 thing about

01:18:29.420 how ignorant

01:18:30.420 we are in the

01:18:31.140 West

01:18:31.420 about

01:18:31.820 the reality

01:18:33.860 of evil

01:18:34.380 among much

01:18:34.920 else

01:18:35.180 is the

01:18:36.640 presumption

01:18:37.220 that everyone

01:18:37.800 wants what

01:18:38.560 we want

01:18:39.280 for instance

01:18:39.840 which among

01:18:40.260 other things

01:18:40.680 is also just

01:18:41.200 narcissistic

01:18:41.980 projection

01:18:42.560 maybe everyone

01:18:44.720 else doesn't

01:18:45.220 want what

01:18:45.680 you want

01:18:46.060 maybe they

01:18:46.360 want something

01:18:46.720 totally different

01:18:47.780 entirely

01:18:48.280 but one of

01:18:49.340 the things

01:18:49.640 like they're

01:18:49.820 women to be

01:18:50.440 covered from

01:18:50.980 head to toe

01:18:51.600 so they can

01:18:52.180 only see out

01:18:52.840 one eye

01:18:53.380 and never

01:18:53.840 talk

01:18:54.400 maybe they

01:18:55.000 want that

01:18:55.520 maybe they

01:18:55.800 want that

01:18:56.140 since they're

01:18:56.760 pursuing that

01:18:57.720 and you know

01:18:59.700 one of the

01:19:00.160 things I

01:19:00.780 thought of a

01:19:02.040 lot when I

01:19:02.520 was thinking

01:19:02.900 when I was

01:19:03.660 covering the

01:19:05.640 obviously this is

01:19:07.200 also as you know

01:19:07.720 a first hand

01:19:08.160 account of

01:19:08.760 Israel's response

01:19:10.200 in the conflict

01:19:10.960 one of the things

01:19:12.420 I thought about a

01:19:13.060 lot was

01:19:13.640 what the spirit

01:19:14.860 is that animates

01:19:16.540 in response to

01:19:18.560 the death

01:19:18.960 cults and I

01:19:20.680 realized that it

01:19:21.540 is it's it's

01:19:23.320 there in in in

01:19:24.600 our texts

01:19:25.340 it's there in the

01:19:26.440 books

01:19:26.840 therefore choose

01:19:28.500 life

01:19:28.800 therefore choose

01:19:29.580 life

01:19:29.800 deuteronomy

01:19:31.040 deuteronomy

01:19:32.340 choose life that

01:19:34.100 you and your

01:19:34.540 descendants might

01:19:35.380 live

01:19:35.800 I when I was

01:19:37.620 thinking about

01:19:38.080 that I thought

01:19:39.500 I was reminded

01:19:40.500 of that phase

01:19:41.540 of the news

01:19:41.980 new phase

01:19:42.500 new wave

01:19:43.780 atheists in

01:19:44.400 the 2000s

01:19:45.100 of which I

01:19:45.400 was distantly

01:19:45.940 apart who

01:19:47.720 used to say

01:19:48.220 things like

01:19:48.720 well the ten

01:19:49.260 commandments

01:19:49.720 they're so

01:19:50.200 obvious I

01:19:50.900 mean they

01:19:51.180 don't need to

01:19:51.980 why do we need

01:19:52.840 to be told not

01:19:53.480 to murder because

01:19:54.080 you were

01:19:54.400 murdering because

01:19:55.480 humankind didn't

01:19:56.660 know that you

01:19:57.100 shouldn't murder

01:19:57.780 there's envy we

01:19:59.300 could talk about

01:19:59.940 envy if that if

01:20:01.540 you don't think

01:20:02.060 that's an a

01:20:02.660 priori condition

01:20:03.780 you are very

01:20:04.720 naive but but

01:20:05.820 but so I heard

01:20:07.460 that for many

01:20:07.960 years about the

01:20:09.040 ten commandments

01:20:09.480 and it was

01:20:09.840 done in I

01:20:10.980 think usually

01:20:11.460 naive and

01:20:12.180 flippant way but

01:20:13.080 when it comes

01:20:15.140 down to this

01:20:15.780 one literally

01:20:17.120 the commandment

01:20:18.940 to choose

01:20:19.700 life in the

01:20:22.280 face of

01:20:23.160 whatever odds

01:20:24.500 yeah whatever

01:20:25.620 odds as the

01:20:27.020 psalmist says

01:20:27.780 that's the story

01:20:28.360 of Job

01:20:28.760 exactly and as

01:20:30.960 the psalmist

01:20:31.600 says I shall

01:20:32.400 not die but I

01:20:33.400 shall live

01:20:34.000 one of the

01:20:35.420 things that I

01:20:36.400 recount in the

01:20:37.080 book is

01:20:37.940 it's just the

01:20:38.620 number of

01:20:39.280 examples I

01:20:40.060 came across

01:20:40.780 from people who

01:20:42.080 had stared right

01:20:42.940 in the face of

01:20:43.700 death right in

01:20:45.340 the face of

01:20:45.880 evil and who

01:20:47.500 even in the

01:20:48.260 face of it and

01:20:49.560 in the aftermath

01:20:50.280 of it had at

01:20:51.880 the core of

01:20:52.780 their being I

01:20:53.520 shall not die but

01:20:54.480 I shall live

01:20:55.160 and even in a

01:20:58.500 military response

01:20:59.680 you see the

01:21:01.000 difference between

01:21:01.700 these things

01:21:02.580 the mass

01:21:04.060 you talk about

01:21:04.980 Hezbollah

01:21:05.740 breaking apart

01:21:06.720 and everyone

01:21:07.220 fleeing after the

01:21:08.300 leadership is taken

01:21:09.180 out right well

01:21:09.980 that's that's why

01:21:11.200 the 100 men

01:21:12.860 possessed of the

01:21:13.720 proper spirit can

01:21:14.640 defeat 12,000

01:21:15.800 enemies yes

01:21:16.640 because the

01:21:17.080 enemies aren't

01:21:17.680 united by anything

01:21:18.660 transcendent well

01:21:19.920 one of the things

01:21:21.000 that Hassan

01:21:21.660 Nasrallah the

01:21:23.000 now late leader of

01:21:24.000 Hezbollah had said

01:21:24.900 for many years was

01:21:26.760 the the jihadist

01:21:27.920 death taunt he

01:21:28.920 had said it many

01:21:29.640 times there's a

01:21:30.480 famous time in the

01:21:31.180 2000s when he

01:21:32.060 says it in a

01:21:32.540 speech in Beirut

01:21:33.240 when he says the

01:21:34.400 infidels great

01:21:35.500 weakness is that

01:21:36.840 they love life

01:21:37.980 but we we love

01:21:41.020 death and this is

01:21:42.520 our great advantage

01:21:43.760 he and others

01:21:47.200 around him really

01:21:48.140 meant this they

01:21:49.620 wanted just like

01:21:50.800 kidnapping children

01:21:51.900 kidnapping civilians

01:21:53.160 they knew that if

01:21:57.480 you go to a

01:21:58.620 society focused on

01:22:00.440 life even to the

01:22:03.600 extent of the

01:22:04.200 minimization of

01:22:05.200 deaths of their

01:22:05.980 enemies that if

01:22:07.620 you go for a

01:22:08.560 society that loves

01:22:10.380 life desires life

01:22:12.900 fights for life

01:22:14.480 that you can

01:22:16.160 terrorize them you

01:22:17.340 could terrify them

01:22:18.340 with your

01:22:19.260 orgiastic

01:22:20.160 celebration of

01:22:21.980 death but as I

01:22:25.160 described toward the

01:22:25.940 end of the book as

01:22:26.640 the year of the

01:22:27.660 conflict starts to

01:22:28.720 turn around as

01:22:30.700 Hassan Nasrallah

01:22:31.620 goes to meet his

01:22:32.500 maker from a

01:22:34.420 Beirut bunker when

01:22:38.180 Sinwar finally crops

01:22:40.900 above ground in

01:22:42.140 Rafa with only three

01:22:44.000 other people with

01:22:44.960 him one by the way a

01:22:46.400 bodyguard who was

01:22:47.300 working for the UN

01:22:48.340 or UN agency when

01:22:51.420 Sinwar comes above

01:22:52.660 the UN yes again

01:22:54.540 Sinwar's bodyguard paid

01:22:55.980 for with our taxpayer

01:22:57.200 dollars but when the

01:22:58.680 architect the seventh

01:22:59.640 finally comes above

01:23:00.840 ground in Rafa which

01:23:02.060 of course the military

01:23:02.900 expert Kamala Harris had

01:23:04.220 told the Israeli army

01:23:05.080 not to go into because

01:23:06.700 she looked at the maps

01:23:07.660 but it turned out when

01:23:08.960 they went into Rafa they

01:23:09.940 found their enemy and

01:23:12.680 when you see these

01:23:14.900 people there is an

01:23:16.940 answer to the death

01:23:18.020 cults there is an

01:23:19.800 answer to the cult of

01:23:21.020 death which the IDF

01:23:23.980 has shown is the

01:23:27.340 destruction of their

01:23:28.300 leaders the killing of

01:23:30.400 the psychopaths who

01:23:31.560 would lead a society in

01:23:32.940 this way and a

01:23:35.140 demonstration of the

01:23:36.760 values of your own

01:23:37.820 society now that has

01:23:38.980 been incredibly hard

01:23:40.200 because there hasn't

01:23:41.580 been a day I've been

01:23:42.660 with the Israeli

01:23:43.480 defense forces in the

01:23:44.720 last year and a half

01:23:45.840 when I haven't seen how

01:23:47.380 they've been operating

01:23:48.560 and then read the

01:23:50.200 world's news the next

01:23:51.280 day and read it as if

01:23:52.500 these were polar

01:23:55.840 opposites of each

01:23:56.780 other as I say you

01:23:58.500 know Israelis enter

01:24:00.340 hospital yes because the

01:24:03.300 hospital was somewhere

01:24:04.600 where there's footage of

01:24:06.460 hostages from the

01:24:08.160 seventh being taken in on

01:24:10.160 the seventh and not for

01:24:11.640 care whether it's

01:24:14.240 hospitals schools anything

01:24:17.460 else there was just

01:24:20.400 nothing the IDF could

01:24:21.900 do from the moment they

01:24:23.040 went in indeed from the

01:24:24.120 moment before they went

01:24:25.540 in when they were not

01:24:26.940 going to be misrepresented

01:24:28.400 by the world's media in a

01:24:30.920 grand way but and I've

01:24:36.460 been asked many times in

01:24:37.460 the last year and a

01:24:37.980 half why are the Israelis so

01:24:39.240 bad at communicating the

01:24:41.080 truth is it's extremely

01:24:42.560 hard to communicate what

01:24:43.860 you're doing to a world

01:24:45.580 which in significant part

01:24:47.100 has already decided that

01:24:49.060 you're the bad guy and

01:24:50.280 one that's manipulated as

01:24:51.760 well very profoundly by the

01:24:53.560 actors behind the scenes

01:24:54.960 and the all the things that

01:24:57.220 we talked about play into

01:24:58.400 this the refusal of the

01:24:59.740 West to admit to the

01:25:00.820 existence of malevolence

01:25:02.100 our inability to understand

01:25:03.840 the difference between a

01:25:05.440 just and an unjust war our

01:25:07.900 our willingness to hide in

01:25:09.640 the shibboleth that war is

01:25:11.340 bad which is hardly a moral

01:25:13.360 claim at all no I mean I

01:25:15.280 would say the people

01:25:16.100 there's there's a saying

01:25:17.540 I quote somebody saying

01:25:18.760 the book is an idiot British

01:25:21.360 student survey in which a

01:25:24.260 large number of people said

01:25:25.600 they wouldn't be willing to

01:25:26.480 fight for their country even

01:25:27.700 if it was under existential

01:25:28.840 threat and well they've been

01:25:31.240 taught that well yes and

01:25:32.500 when you dig down on the

01:25:33.460 reasons why they said they

01:25:34.740 wouldn't even be willing to

01:25:35.620 fight for their country under

01:25:36.600 existential threat as the

01:25:38.140 young men and women of

01:25:38.920 Israel have had to do for

01:25:39.740 the last 18 months the most

01:25:41.420 common reply among young

01:25:42.680 British people of the same

01:25:43.740 age was war doesn't solve

01:25:46.260 anything right right right

01:25:48.260 war yeah yeah well in the

01:25:50.520 and you think about how easy

01:25:52.140 it is to make the moral claim

01:25:53.640 for example I've heard many

01:25:55.340 people make this claim I'm

01:25:57.740 against the death of women

01:25:59.280 and children as if that's

01:26:01.380 some sort of moral claim well

01:26:03.400 once if that's not the basis

01:26:04.900 of common humanity no one can

01:26:07.040 capitalize on that yes on that

01:26:09.720 what on that profession of

01:26:11.320 their morality well it's it I

01:26:12.700 and the other one I come

01:26:13.580 across is people by the way

01:26:14.960 they don't really mean it by

01:26:16.240 the way because again and

01:26:17.440 again the people who say that

01:26:18.840 Israel is killing women and

01:26:20.020 children are apologists for at

01:26:22.860 best and supporters for at

01:26:24.540 worse a group that videoed

01:26:26.800 themselves killing women and

01:26:28.560 children and many of the

01:26:30.680 people who say that the

01:26:31.940 Israelis well many of the

01:26:33.560 people who say that the

01:26:34.340 Israelis are doing this are the

01:26:36.580 same people who say that

01:26:38.380 Hamas did not I mean that's

01:26:39.980 another level of the

01:26:40.780 psychopathy now in the West

01:26:42.220 it's like the I said

01:26:45.340 repeatedly since the seventh

01:26:46.540 you know what do we have in

01:26:47.940 the 2017 period believe all

01:26:49.580 women turned out don't

01:26:51.800 believe women if they're Jews

01:26:52.940 don't believe it then don't

01:26:54.740 believe it is if it's caught

01:26:55.860 if the rape is caught on

01:26:57.000 camera by Hamas and they're

01:26:58.960 boasting of it don't believe

01:27:00.140 them but then a year down the

01:27:03.100 road the road in the war in

01:27:04.960 Gaza these same people who

01:27:06.920 deny that Hamas raped women on

01:27:08.460 the seventh will say that

01:27:10.160 Israeli soldiers are raping

01:27:12.200 women in Gaza every single

01:27:15.500 time it's some form of

01:27:17.200 projection well and that's

01:27:19.400 that last ditch attempt to to

01:27:21.800 to what would you say to

01:27:23.960 salvage the oppressor victim

01:27:26.100 narrative excuse that's the

01:27:27.460 core that's the the staff in

01:27:29.780 the center of the belief system

01:27:31.280 but yes I mean to go back to

01:27:33.260 the main point yes the main

01:27:34.360 response that I hear is people

01:27:36.120 who say things like I don't

01:27:37.580 like war yeah now your book

01:27:42.780 ends and we should wrap with

01:27:44.800 this because we're coming near

01:27:45.960 the end like your book ends I

01:27:48.900 guess on a quasi theological

01:27:51.980 note right you're it seems to

01:27:54.580 me that the underlying conclusion

01:27:56.780 that you drew having admitted to

01:28:00.420 the existence of evil let's say in a

01:28:03.720 theological sense at least

01:28:06.060 technically right because it's a

01:28:08.100 language that expresses that

01:28:10.020 landscape it's at least that and

01:28:12.920 it is a pointer to the opposite

01:28:14.720 right that's the thing to say it

01:28:17.120 again about contending with evil is

01:28:19.260 once you admit to its existence

01:28:21.060 in especially in its lowest forms

01:28:24.620 you're forced to grapple with the

01:28:28.340 fact that the opposite exists and

01:28:31.220 and then that put that points you

01:28:33.400 towards heaven so to speak now you

01:28:35.680 you structured your book so that your

01:28:38.640 conclusion which is actually somewhat

01:28:40.880 optimistic is that despite being

01:28:43.840 faced down by a death cult that

01:28:46.620 outnumbers them

01:28:47.680 geometrically the Israelis are still

01:28:54.000 there yes and they're thriving yes and

01:28:56.840 there are forces within the Islamic world

01:28:59.340 that have recognized that and that are

01:29:01.220 doing their best to what not even so

01:29:05.460 much reconcile themselves to that fact

01:29:07.620 but perhaps even to welcome it yes and

01:29:10.960 that that's held after October 7th which

01:29:13.300 was a complete bloody miracle that was

01:29:15.000 the Abraham Accords and that's what I

01:29:17.120 want to talk to you on the daily about

01:29:18.640 on the daily wire side because I would

01:29:20.320 like to talk to you we didn't get into

01:29:21.860 the issue of Islam versus Christianity and

01:29:25.160 exactly how that might be conceptualized

01:29:28.300 and mediated but I'd like to do that on

01:29:30.000 the daily wire side for all of you who

01:29:31.540 are watching and listening that that

01:29:34.260 worship of life right it's it's it's

01:29:37.220 the axiomatic presupposition that it's

01:29:40.120 it's no different than the presupposition I

01:29:42.520 think that people are made in the image of

01:29:44.200 God it's just different language and and

01:29:47.080 that that points to what that points to a

01:29:50.220 transcendent good that's encapsulated in

01:29:52.680 the Jewish scriptures and in and in

01:29:54.640 Christianity as God yes God's the spirit

01:29:58.940 that demands that life be valued above

01:30:03.240 all really above all yes not above God

01:30:05.980 perhaps but and that's more like a

01:30:08.520 definition you know yes and then the

01:30:10.940 question is and I thought about this for a

01:30:13.680 long time well what if you abandon your

01:30:16.640 belief in the goodness of life Job refuses

01:30:19.340 to do that that the the anti-natalists

01:30:22.220 abandon their belief in this goodness of

01:30:25.720 life the cascading consequences of that

01:30:28.340 are genocidal that's where it ends always

01:30:31.220 yes and that's what's happening but the

01:30:33.980 but the but the the opportunity to see the

01:30:38.600 opposite of that yeah to see the opposite of

01:30:42.040 the anti-natalism for instance yeah Israel has

01:30:45.440 the only positive birth rate in the Western

01:30:47.980 world and not just among the religious

01:30:50.240 among the secular as well which is blowing

01:30:54.060 the minds of a lot of demographers as

01:30:55.740 it should as it should thought this is as it

01:30:58.420 should you'll notice that your most secular

01:31:00.780 Tel Avivians will be having more children

01:31:04.740 than themselves they're more than two

01:31:07.320 children a couple on average per right

01:31:10.600 relatively the Israelis have pulled that off

01:31:12.420 and the Hungarians haven't even been able to

01:31:14.220 manage it even though they're trying very hard

01:31:16.520 yes but that points to one of the central

01:31:21.180 things in it you probably can't fake that

01:31:24.520 stuff up the Hungarians yeah for instance

01:31:28.600 and I think the Poles yeah when they wanted to

01:31:30.720 encourage people to have more

01:31:31.800 economically it's economic yeah if you have

01:31:34.420 a fourth child you will pay no income tax on

01:31:37.140 the tenth year of this maybe people don't

01:31:39.640 structure their lives like that why is it

01:31:42.040 that there's an anti-Marxist thing to say

01:31:44.660 yes but what how about if I mean look at the

01:31:47.820 difference between a Hungarian couple who are

01:31:52.700 working out the tax break advantages of having a

01:31:55.960 fourth child but deciding not to have a second

01:31:58.840 child versus an Israeli family in a war zone

01:32:05.540 still creating life right that's not a tax incentive

01:32:11.220 thing no that is at a far far deeper level right and

01:32:15.280 it is to do with a commandment it is to do with a

01:32:19.660 commandment and you know I would just add one

01:32:23.100 other thing to that which is I was talking the other

01:32:26.260 day with a with a friend biblical scholar and he said you know

01:32:31.380 that that famous quote on the walls of the UN the quote from

01:32:37.880 Isaiah and he shall judge among the nations and shall rebuke many

01:32:42.040 people and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their

01:32:45.880 spears into pruning hooks nation shall not lift up sword against nation neither

01:32:52.200 shall they learn war anymore now that's magnificent sentiment of course and who

01:33:00.020 wouldn't want to follow it but the thing that I just realized is look at what

01:33:07.400 comes before it let us go up to the mountain of the Lord to the house of the

01:33:12.440 God of Jacob and he will teach us of his ways and we will walk in his paths for out

01:33:18.700 of Zion shall go forth the law and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem

01:33:24.820 right that's called a precondition Douglas you don't get the idea of war being no

01:33:34.360 more or peace breaking out breaking out among nations unless the word goes out

01:33:42.040 from Jerusalem you can have one but you can't have it without the other that's

01:33:48.340 right yeah all right sir for those of you who are going to follow us over to

01:33:55.160 the daily wire side I'm going to talk to does Douglas with equal seriousness

01:33:59.800 about the interplay between religious fundamentalism and psychopathy with

01:34:07.000 particular attention to the Islamic world why because there are signs of hope for a

01:34:14.980 rapprochement between Christianity Judaism and Islam mostly in the form of the

01:34:20.480 Abraham Accords perhaps in the actions of the United Arab Emirate and perhaps the

01:34:26.320 Saudis now there are many things to untangle before that becomes a reality and I would

01:34:32.680 like to discuss some of those thorny issues with Douglas if you want to join us on the

01:34:37.800 daily wire side that's where we're headed next thank you mr murray thank you yes that was a hell

01:34:44.580 of a read and uh it's it's quite a remarkable thing to have managed and I'm amazed you're still in one

01:34:51.520 piece both physically and psychologically so thank you yeah you bet you bet and thank you to all of

01:34:57.940 you for your time and attention and to the daily wire for making this possible the film crew here in

01:35:03.220 Scottsdale for making arrangements to have this happen today bye-bye

01:35:08.420 you

546. The West Is Too Weak For Radical Islam ｜ Douglas Murray

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