Riley Gaines was a 12-time NCAA All-American swimmer at the University of Minnesota and a member of the 1992 Olympic team. She went on to become a political activist and advocate for equal pay for women in the United States. She is now the first woman elected to Congress representing a state in the U.S. House of Representatives. In this episode, Dr. Jillian Manus talks with Dr. Gaines about what it means to be a woman in politics, why women should be allowed to compete in sports, and why it s important to understand the difference between a woman and a man in sports.
00:02:54.300Today, we spoke to Riley Gaines, who made her name as a 12-time NCAA All-American swimmer and who in 2022 had to face a male swimmer in a competition.
00:03:08.180Since then, Riley has been an indefatigable opponent of the narcissistic, psychopathic bullies who believe that it's reasonable for them to enter female sports competitions and steal the glory and the deserved accolades that they worked so hard to attain.
00:03:31.320Riley has been instrumental in changing legislation in 28 states, and she's now working to help state legislatures and Congress define the difference between a woman and a man since we've come to that in our culture so that this unfair bullying masquerading as progressive virtue signaling can be brought to an end.
00:04:50.620Well, you know, it is true that your life will change drastically.
00:04:54.340And the thing that surprises me, I guess, is that people reflexively assume that's a bad thing.
00:05:02.580And assuming as well, I suppose that, and this may be the case for you, that their life is so spectacularly wonderful as single people, as soul people, before they become parents, that any change is necessarily going to be negative.
00:05:21.800And it's very useful to enter into a situation where someone else is more important than you.
00:06:11.040I think it's something a lot of women feel, especially as they reach a certain age.
00:06:14.540But motherhood, to me, it didn't seem like an option, of course, God willing, given that I have been blessed to have the capacity to do so, and there was no issues or problems or fertility issues.
00:06:31.800And I don't think that's—maybe it hasn't always been the case, but I think especially once you start getting into your 20s—I'm 25 at this point—it didn't seem like there was another option for me.
00:06:42.300I couldn't imagine the alternative, so everything has felt led to where we are soon to be heading, so very, very excited.
00:06:51.620Yeah, well, it seems to be a progressive trope that when you're in your 20s, particularly if you're female, you have nothing better to do than to serve a large evil corporation and make your way on the career path.
00:07:09.540I've never been able to reconcile that personally, how the progressives can be radically anti-capitalist and pro-career.
00:07:19.440And, of course, most people don't have careers, they have jobs, and it isn't obvious at all that a job is preferable to family life.
00:07:26.760No, that's the lie that we've been fed, I think, largely to blame the feminist movement, which has kind of become a taboo topic.
00:07:32.940It's become cliche to say that, but I think when you really, really think about it, right, this whole girl-boss narrative that's been pushed and fed to young women, it's a total facade.
00:07:45.640And you're right, I think it's ironic, too, that these are the same people who screech when they hear the word capitalism and what this means, yet they're the same ones who are advancing women in the workplace and what this means and how women can excel and succeed.
00:08:02.460And, of course, I am the biggest believer of women putting themselves in positions to succeed in the athletic space and beyond.
00:08:11.140But that's not to say that, again, there is so much value in being a mom and fulfilling your role as a woman.
00:08:20.480The only, I guess, I mean, women can only fulfill this role.
00:08:26.200And there's something really beautiful and, again, magical to that that I believe serves a major purpose, of course, in life and humanity, the sheer essence of humanity.
00:08:35.380And so what's your plan for child care for the first while?
00:10:14.360And the stories that you hear and the sicknesses that he comes home with and, I mean, globally, really, these stories that you hear of, whether it's preschool teachers or daycare providers, whatever it is, and the horrific acts that you see or the negligence that you see, it's just not something that,
00:10:32.180a position that I'm willing to put my child into.
00:10:37.900My husband has a construction business, so he pours concrete here in Nashville, Tennessee.
00:10:44.780So there's a bit of flexibility there, given the fact that he runs the cruise.
00:10:48.640He's able to control his schedule to a degree.
00:10:53.320And, of course, with the position that I have found myself in and with what I'm able to do, lots of travel, of course.
00:11:00.620I would say I spend about 260, 70 days a year on the road.
00:11:05.740But with that, also able to stay home, I get to kind of make my own schedule.
00:11:09.940So, all that to say, I just don't think I'm willing to put my child's health or their care into someone else's, into their reach, so long as me and my husband are able to do it ourselves.
00:11:27.780Yeah, well, years ago, I did a review of daycare and its effects.
00:11:33.140And the conclusions of the research literature at that time, and I don't imagine it's changed much in the interim, was that daycare under three for children under three is really not advisable.
00:11:46.720And that's particularly true in the first year.
00:11:49.520And that's fundamentally because there isn't really any form of care that, I think it's safe to say that there isn't any form of care that can replace a mother's care, particularly in the first year, but really in the first three.
00:12:03.900And that's because infants are so dependent, especially in the first nine months.
00:12:09.920So, it is, well, it is unfortunate that we're in a situation now where it's a luxury for women to be able to stay home with their children.
00:12:21.920And it's quite remarkable that we managed to produce that conundrum for families, for young families, over the last 30 years, as if by design.
00:12:35.700It goes by very quickly, although it seems as soon as you have a baby, it doesn't take very long before it seems like that's always been the case and it's always going to be the case, but it doesn't last long.
00:12:47.900So, hey, so what do you think about, you got married quite young, I mean, 21.
00:12:59.080It has been the biggest blessing of my entire life.
00:13:03.240What it has been able to provide for me, I think, getting married at 21, my husband 22 at the time, it's just a constant throughout all of the ups and downs of life.
00:13:16.180It is a, I mean, my husband, Louis, he's my rock.
00:13:23.520I mean, anything that I need, you have someone there who can provide for you or anything that he can do to help alleviate any sort of pressure or, I mean, anything.
00:13:35.300It has been the biggest, biggest blessing.
00:13:37.800And I was hesitant at first, truthfully.
00:13:39.260I was, the way this, the timeline of this, of course, the incident, the experience that ultimately really gave me the platform that I had, that national championships where there was a man in the pool with us.
00:13:54.680So we competed and it was actually the next day that my husband proposed to me.
00:13:59.500At the time, my life plans were, obviously, to not be doing what I am doing now.
00:14:05.420Who could have ever expected that this was the direction that my life would go or that this issue would continue to go?
00:14:12.780At the time, I was set to be in dental school.
00:14:19.020I was going to University of Tennessee with hopes to specialize in endodontics, which is root canals, weirdly enough.
00:14:25.760I had taken the DAT, which is the dental admissions test.
00:14:28.640I had scored in the top percentile nationally, could have gone anywhere in the nation that I wanted to go to pursue dentistry, had been awarded tens of thousands of dollars in scholarship funds to continue down this career path that I had really prepared for, that I felt like was everything that I had ever imagined myself doing post-graduating undergrad.
00:14:51.740Proposed the next day after that national championships.
00:15:30.000And so, of course, I said yes when my husband proposed.
00:15:32.980And all of those feelings of hesitation and doubt went out of the window immediately and was just so excited for what this future would look like and how we would make this work.
00:15:42.180But in those months leading up to dental school, I realized, of course, the gravity of this issue.
00:16:44.800And so I realized I couldn't continue doing both dental school and this activism with the efficacy that I knew I wanted to have in each respective field.
00:17:06.200Sure, I'm not typically an indecisive person, but it felt like such a—I mean, this decision would predict the rest of my life.
00:17:14.740And he just says, you know, do what you want to do, which was no help to me.
00:17:18.080And so almost in this moment of weakness, I ended up calling the dental school, the admissions office.
00:17:23.740Bear in mind, the entire time throughout this process of dental school, I had, again, continued my activism, but not let my peers know who I was.
00:17:51.360And so I didn't let anyone know who I was.
00:17:53.160And so I called the admissions office, and very vaguely, I just said, hey, you know, something personal has come up in my life right now, and I'm just looking for guidance.
00:18:02.260And she stopped me before I could even finish the sentence.
00:18:04.880And she said, look, Riley, we know who you are, and we know what you do, but it took me by surprise—it really did—when she—the next thing she said was, and we love what you do.
00:18:19.900She said, I can't tell you what to do.
00:18:21.780Of course I can't, but I will tell you, you will have far more impact fighting that fight than you will ever have being a dentist.
00:18:28.480So she said, you know, we'll hold your spot if that's what you choose to do.
00:18:33.920If you choose to fight that fight, we'll hold your seat.
00:18:36.360All of the money that you've already spent here, anytime you want to come back, you have a spot here.
00:18:41.780But you'll have far more impact fighting that fight.
00:18:44.900And it felt like, Jordan, it felt like God winking at me.
00:18:48.120Like that was the clarity that I needed to ultimately feel confident and secure enough to take that initial leap of faith.
00:18:55.680But all that to say, the question was about my husband and getting married young.
00:19:02.140I don't think this process would have looked the same had we not gotten married, had he not proposed the day after that race happened between Will Thomas and myself.
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00:19:45.500Now, you said that you told your husband not to propose and that you had planned to go to dental school, but he ignored you and did anyways, and then you rapidly accepted.
00:20:01.420You know, you had a very fully fleshed-out plan, one that would have led to your financial independence and a relatively prestigious professional occupation.
00:20:34.360This is not a critique, just obviously, but I'm very curious, you know, because you had a plan and you were somewhat insistent about it, and yet when push came to shove, you changed directions quite rapidly.
00:20:48.300I think when, thinking back to, again, three years ago, over three years ago at this point, and the direction I believed my life to go, the school, University of Tennessee, their dental school, is actually in Memphis.
00:21:02.260My husband, again, living in Nashville, it's about a three-hour drive.
00:24:06.680I was thinking we needed a different name because people who speak on behalf of their conscience
00:24:13.100aren't the same people who speak for the purposes of narcissistic self-aggrandizement and to virtue signal.
00:24:23.540And the typical college campus activist, for example, fits very well into the narcissistic self-aggrandizement category.
00:24:32.600In fact, there's an increasingly voluminous body of psychological research suggesting, for example, that one of the best predictors of the desire to redistribute income isn't fairness,
00:24:48.380which, if measured properly, doesn't seem to enter into the equation at all, but malicious envy.
00:24:54.360So, George Orwell was correct when he said that the typical middle-class socialists didn't love the poor.
00:25:01.500They just hated the rich, which is a completely different phenomenon.
00:25:05.380And it's also the case that the activist types tend to be narcissistic, psychopathic, Machiavellian, so they use their language to manipulate, and also sadistic.
00:25:17.300They take positive delight in the suffering of others.
00:25:21.860Malicious envy combined with the dark tetrad.
00:25:26.080And you, you're not in that situation because you were responding to an unbelievably pathological sequence of events
00:25:38.020that ended up pitting you and many other women against exactly these dark tetrad types.
00:25:44.640The Thomas character, Will Thomas, who purported to be a woman so that he could have a competitive chance at a high level, despite the fact that he was, what, how tall is Will Thomas?
00:26:03.920And so, you know, activist isn't right.
00:26:07.420Like, conservative activists, generally speaking, of your sort, aren't activists.
00:26:12.560They're speaking on behalf of their conscience.
00:26:15.480I appreciate you saying that because, truthfully, it's one of the, and I agree entirely, it's one of the biggest pieces of criticism that I receive from those on the other side.
00:26:26.340Is they say, well, you're just doing this, you know, you're being a grifter.
00:26:32.560Which is amazing to me because, again, you think back to 2021, 2022, when this all came about.
00:26:39.740It wasn't the cool thing to say that men and women are different.
00:26:45.280But I think back to the risk that I believed I was taking.
00:26:49.120Granted, I will say a lot of those things, actually virtually all of those things, right?
00:26:53.820Again, I told you how they said, you know, you'll lose your friends.
00:26:57.040They told us in undergrad, you'll lose your scholarship.
00:26:59.840They told us awful things about how our rhetoric was killing people, how we were essentially murderers in this equation, telling us how we were equivalent to the KKK and white supremacists because we were advocating for segregation.
00:27:14.020All things, again, a shame to say it, as a staunch, well, I will say as a Christian my entire life, of course, with leaving me with staunch conservative views my entire life, all those things I believed, but none of them have happened.
00:27:49.160I believed I was taking a lot of risk at the time.
00:27:52.180Granted, there have only been opportunities for me.
00:27:55.620I've only made more friends, developed more relationships, which again goes to show you, I think,
00:28:02.020just how silent the silent majority was only a few years ago.
00:28:08.240But this word grifter, it's been totally, that word, it irks me so badly.
00:28:15.260No one can give you a proper definition of what it means, and they can't stand the fact when you speak based on your ethics or your moral compass or your conscience, as you said.
00:28:26.240Yeah, well, I leaned into that idea very early, because one of the things I realized pretty much immediately was that there was almost nothing more comical than making money off of progressives.
00:28:39.780You know, one of the things we do, which I think is extremely funny, when I'm touring and lecturing, now and then there's protests, although they're getting pretty few and far between.
00:28:49.260And we made it a policy to film the protests and to use them in advertisements, because I think it's reasonable to be, and maybe it was a little different for me than it would be for you.
00:29:05.020Maybe our situation was somewhat different, but I don't think there's anything more comical than making money from progressive idiocy.
00:29:12.660It's perfectly comical, and so, and that's the idea that, the idea, I suppose, is that you did it for the fame, for the glory, for the money.
00:29:23.200But as you point out, and this was certainly the case with me as well, the probability that, well, first of all, your belief that speaking out was likely to lead to disaster would have likely been true four years earlier.
00:29:42.980You know, you probably just caught the, you just caught the transition, so to speak, in 2020.
00:29:50.640It was starting to become acceptable to say that things that you were saying.
00:29:57.000But four years earlier, you certainly would have paid for it dearly, and you had every reason to assume in 2020 that the same would be the case.
00:30:05.620Plus, if you're going to be a grifter, opposing the woke mob is a very, what would you say, high-risk, high-risk endeavor with a low probability of payoff.
00:30:33.000I would also say a fair bit of that is projection.
00:30:36.220Like I said, I've been following the psychological research on the personality traits of the activist types, and this goes for the nature-worshipping environmentalists as well.
00:30:45.780And it's almost entirely performative and narcissistic.
00:30:49.220And so, when people like that see someone taking a public stance, their logical assumption is that, their logical assumption for them to make is that such people must be motivated by the same motivations they share, even though that's clearly not the case.
00:31:08.420So, so, so, so much for the grift angle.
00:31:13.640And a fair bit of that's jealousy and spite making itself manifest in social media channels as well.
00:31:21.540So, okay, so back to, back to your decision to continue with your political work.
00:31:28.820Let's call it that and not your activism, your political and communication, your political work and your communication, which is what you're doing.
00:31:35.840So, you were in dental school, and what sort of opportunities, tell me, tell me what you're, you said you were, you know, traveling 260 days out of the year, which is pretty much all the time.
00:31:49.620Tell me what a typical week or two-week period or month has looked like.
00:31:54.860Maybe we can start back in 2022 or thereabouts, or even, well, we talked in, we talked in March of 2023.
00:32:06.040Tell me what a typical week or day or month looks like for you now.
00:32:10.620Well, I think it looks very different now than at the beginning, but I think the beginning has ultimately led me to where I am now.
00:32:17.920Again, going back to 2022, or even when we spoke in 2023, I very much had this mindset of just saying yes to whoever and whatever the opportunity was,
00:32:30.020so long as it gave this issue more credibility or credence, things to talk about.
00:32:37.900So, oftentimes, that would mean getting in front of different legislative bodies.
00:32:42.480One of the things that, honestly, I think to be one of my greatest passions throughout all of these, the different aspects and realms that come with this position that I have found myself in,
00:32:58.640I have loved the state policy side of things.
00:33:02.040And so, traveling all over, I know, traveling all over the nation to help draft legislation, to speak with lawmakers, teach them how to talk about these issues, to testify,
00:33:15.040to be there for any sort of ceremonial signings on bills that I helped work on.
00:33:20.860And, of course, none of that is paid work.
00:33:25.660It's just being willing to lend a helping hand when and where it's needed.
00:34:14.280So, to be able to push back on the narrative that's out there, but also to engage and mobilize the younger generation, the youth, I feel so passionately about that.
00:34:23.140I think we're a demographic that's often left out of these important deemed political conversations.
00:34:29.520Which demographic are you speaking of?
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00:35:46.060Are you speaking more to boys or girls or men or women?
00:35:53.400I would say it's a pretty good split, although, you know, maybe thinking of some of the different audiences I found myself in, I think it's natural to assume maybe there are more women there, given this is an issue that, of course, you and I know affects all of humanity.
00:36:07.960But you see the statistics, how women are being more adversely affected, whatever it is.
00:36:14.320So I would say it's a lot of, it's a good mix, but maybe more so women.
00:36:20.860Um, so I have, I've really loved that aspect of it.
00:36:26.420Um, something I, I feel, feel very passionately about just, just, I think part of it's being an athlete too, growing up an athlete, uh, competing at the highest level, almost that mentorship, if you will.
00:37:23.380Uh, we should be able to feel comfortable, uh, being raw and being vulnerable and speaking the truth to, to all ages.
00:37:31.140I think especially high school kids, again, such an impressionable age, uh, so much life ahead of you, yet you're in that position, you know, 16, 17.
00:37:38.86017, 18 years old, where you're making decisions that will impact the rest of your life, what that looks like.
00:37:45.940Uh, so that's been a large part of what I do.
00:37:47.800That's what's kept me on the road a lot of times as well.
00:37:51.320Um, so for a while it was totally like flying by the seat of my pants.
00:37:57.160But I will say now, I think especially after Donald Trump winning, uh, on November 5th of last year, with a little more stability, a little more coverage to, um, more people who are willing to, to say what you and I have been saying for a long time now.
00:38:16.660Uh, it's, it's almost like there, you can, like there's a little army that's been deployed.
00:38:23.420Uh, so with that, you can kind of take a step back, observe, and see where you're really, really needed.
00:38:28.880And of course, I'll be there if that's the case.
00:38:31.980So let's talk about the state legislative bodies.
00:38:36.720So how many state legislative bodies approximately have you spoken in front of, and how would you describe and gauge your impact on the legislative side?
00:38:46.680And, and I know it's what, about half the states now have legislation either in place or pending, regulating the participation of, of, well, really men in women's sports, because you very rarely see the reverse.
00:39:02.280So I couldn't even tell you how many states, but I, there are 28 states now that have passed some sort of fairness in women's sports bill.
00:39:10.300Ultimately, as you said, preventing men's participation on women's sports and vice versa.
00:39:15.800Uh, Nebraska being the most recent, uh, I've been to virtually and testified in front of virtually all of these, these state legislatures.
00:39:25.420And of course, uh, this doesn't include the states that have not passed legislation, uh, states like Maine, for example, or Connecticut, uh, or California.
00:39:38.680Um, so, so lots of work being done there.
00:39:41.480Where they still think, where they still think it's fair for men to, for narcissistic men to steal the accomplishments of hardworking and diligent young women in the name of fairness, right?
00:39:54.800They're going to reward these narcissistic psychopaths and, and, and let them, and, and often they're, they're, they're, uh, they're even more narcissistic and, and grasping parents who push them forward and into these sorts of competitions.
00:40:13.660You say where these, these Democrats, and I hate to make it partisan, but again, that's the reality.
00:40:19.520Uh, I hate this is a partisan issue, but, uh, it's fallen entirely on party lines at every level, local, state, and federal.
00:40:27.620Uh, so you say these Democrats, they, they do this out of what they believe to be is fair.
00:40:32.700I don't think that's a fair characterization.
00:40:34.460I don't think they, they're doing this because they think it's fair.
00:40:37.340Uh, I think they're, they're advocating for this position because they believe it to be necessary.
00:40:44.020They're willing to compromise on the fairness piece and the safety piece if it means inclusion is prioritized.
00:40:50.200Yeah, well, Riley, the, the data that I was describing to you, if you, if you add, imagine you use three variables to predict support for these sorts of policies.
00:41:01.580One is malicious envy, one is fairness, and the other is compassion.
00:41:08.020Compassion does predict somewhat, but malicious envy is the best predictor.
00:41:12.960Fairness, as it turns out, doesn't enter it into at all, even though that's the claim.
00:41:18.180And so I would say, and I think it's useful to be realistic about this, is that the claims that are being made to include men in women's sports on behalf of fairness are actually being made by people who,
00:41:30.420I would say, I would say quite bluntly, they hate people like you.
00:41:35.380They hate people who've, who've managed to move themselves ahead in consequence of, to some degree, their good fortune because you were, you know, you were fortunate to be healthy.
00:41:49.860But it also takes a tremendous amount of discipline to be a high level competitive athlete, even a moderate level competitive athlete.
00:41:57.980And so all of this virtue display centering on fairness is a masquerade hiding malicious envy.
00:42:09.200And that's partly why you get the kind of resistance that you get, too, and the anger.
00:42:14.620It's not that they're upset that you're unfair.
00:42:45.980And then you name some major states, including California, where all the pathology of the United States seem to fundamentally emanate from, are still too, I don't know what it is, lost in 2016 to understand that the tide is viciously turned.
00:43:05.820What has it meant for women's sports now, the fact that 28 states have passed legislation?
00:43:11.380And can you give us some idea of what that legislation, like, what's a typical piece of legislation that you've been involved with?
00:43:19.980Well, to speak from the federal level first, as that's what's garnered a lot of attention recently with how President Trump has responded to people like Governor Newsom or like Governor Mills of Maine, what they've done at the federal level, of course, with Title IX, which, as we are recording right now, today is the 53rd anniversary of Title IX.
00:43:42.080So it feels very timely, this conversation, but what that looks like is stripping of federal funds.
00:43:50.020At the state level, truthfully, there's not—
00:43:59.500That's why we have seen really a lot of this Title IX, even they have now a special investigations unit that is the Department of Education kind of coupled with the Department of Justice.
00:44:10.000But a lot of it is managed under the Department of Education or the Office of Civil Rights.
00:44:16.020So that's a lot of what the federal funds issue being stripped.
00:44:21.620So for—take California, for example, a very different demographic than that of Maine.
00:45:48.520I think it's different statutes, different laws that are being violated.
00:45:53.160But nonetheless, Donald Trump has issued executive orders barring men from entering into women's prisons.
00:45:58.760Of course, bear in mind, these are oftentimes violent sexual offenders, these male inmates, who are realizing that the quickest way to get into a woman's prison, which sounds awesome to a rapist, by the way, is to say, I am a woman.
00:46:14.720That's the only qualification in states like California.
00:46:17.520Yeah, I think that's actually one of the most egregious examples of progressive insanity that has made itself manifest in the last 10 years.
00:46:30.520She used to be prime minister of Scotland.
00:46:32.920Oh, yes, she's quite the piece of work.
00:46:34.780So her presumption was any man who says he's a woman is a woman.
00:46:39.840And as a psychopathologist, I look at that and I think, any man, hey, Nicola, what do you know about psychopathological men?
00:46:50.020Like, what do you know about the psychology of serial killers and rapists?
00:46:54.940Are those the sort of men that inhabit your worst nightmares or are they victims in your progressive thinking?
00:47:01.660And these are the sort of victims that you don't want to find under your bed at night, that's for sure.
00:47:06.180So you get this weird extension of compassion as well as malicious envy and a fair bit of, you know, underground malevolence that expends itself in the presumption that all men, bar none, who say they're women are women.
00:47:25.400Well, that did in Nicola Sturgeon, because, of course, what happened in Scotland was that the serial rapists and killers, exactly as you pointed out, thought, well, you just think about how foolish you have to be to assume that someone who's a serial rapist is going to have moral qualms about claiming that he's a woman when really he's not.
00:47:49.440Right? Rape is fine, right? Rape is fine, but he's going to all of a sudden be 100% honest when he defines his gender identity.
00:47:57.720None of that's convenient and that's why, because these absolutely malevolent men are victims? Is that the hypothesis?
00:48:04.780Or I just, I truly struggle to understand it. It's so viciously naive that it's a miracle of inverted thinking.
00:48:19.840Anyways, it did in Nicola, thank God, because she so deserved it.
00:48:23.240That's the way you see it. And that's the way 90 plus percent of Americans see it. They say it's a 70-30, 80-20 issue. I believe it's more drastic than that, actually. And 100% of people with any, a shred of honesty or a moral compass or any amount of common sense see it that way, too.
00:48:43.120And again, I think a large part in why we saw the shift that we did in November, even amongst, we talked about the younger demographic, even amongst younger people. I don't think, well, let me clarify. I do believe that people turned out to the polls to embrace Donald Trump and to embrace his America First agenda and to embrace, you know, his cabinet picks.
00:49:02.460But Jordan, more so, I believe that people turned out to the polls to reject absurdity. And that is absolutely and entirely, I mean, thoroughly what the Democratic Party has become from top to bottom. Again, every single, there's no such thing as a moderate Democrat anymore, at least not an elected Democrat. Look at the way that mainstream media is framed. There's no such thing as moderation.
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00:50:35.560Well, there's no moderation if the insistence is that a man can become a woman. I mean, anybody who swallows that will swallow anything. That is literally, that is literally the biggest lie that you can foist upon people.
00:50:51.060You know, even creatures without a woman. Even creatures without a woman. Even creatures without a nervous system can tell the difference between the sexes. I think it's the most fundamental perceptual category is sex differentiation. So if you violate that, there's nothing you can violate that's more fundamental than the distinction between male and female.
00:51:10.120And so, to the degree that, to be a Democrat, you have to support the trans phenomena, gender-affirming surgery, and the right of psychopathic, narcissistic men to compete against deserving women in their own sports competitions, then you've sold your soul 100% to the devil and there's no way back.
00:51:31.660And I don't think this is a partisan issue exactly because it isn't a classic left-right split. I don't think that classic left-right split even exists anymore. I think it's nihilistic, deluded nihilistic Machiavellian hedonists versus everyone else. And unfortunately, there's a fair number of the former.
00:51:52.020And so, you know, when the election shifted, I had thought for a while about inviting some prominent Democrats onto my podcast. And I had reached out to a number of the people that I know in the podcast world to see if they would platform some Democrats, given the presumption that having a sane opposition
00:52:20.220to the Trump Republicans might be good for everyone, given that it's useful in the kind of political system that we inhabit to have a credible opposition.
00:52:33.600And I worked with one of my compatriots who has superb connections within the Democrat Party and Democratic Party and who knows everyone, I would say, of note and is well-trusted.
00:52:46.860And his conclusion was that he couldn't think of anyone at the federal level who was capable of having an unscripted two-and-a-half-hour conversation. That wouldn't be a catastrophe.
00:52:58.740All of them have sold their tongue to their junior staffers and, you know, test everything they say for its reception, our political actors right to the core.
00:53:14.180And I don't think there's anyone in the Democratic Party who is capable and competent. No one.
00:53:22.560Maybe that's a bit of an overstatement, but you can see in their dearth of leadership, you can certainly see that.
00:53:27.900It's funny you say that because I can recall the first time I testified before Congress, again, being, what, maybe 22, 23 at the time.
00:53:38.980Naturally, you're so nervous, right? Like, I was a nervous wreck sitting in front of these people who are incredibly intimidating, whether, regardless of their political affiliation, understanding these are our lawmakers.
00:53:52.900These are the people who, you know, hold the purse strings, even, if you will.
00:53:56.600So it took me all of five minutes to realize what a silly perception that was to have going into this.
00:54:06.720I realized if you get them off of their little piece of paper that their staffers prepared for them, they really know nothing.
00:54:15.280Like, they're the least intimidating group of people that I've sat in front of.
00:54:20.620Truthfully, I mean that because it is also scripted.
00:54:23.660And so I realized there were several, I mean, moments in these back and forths that we had that you can just stop them in their tracks.
00:54:49.160There was one interaction between a Democrat who said something to the effect of, you know, well, Serena Williams could beat a lot of men in this.
00:54:58.860To which my response is, is, okay, if you're referring to people like Senator Kennedy from Louisiana, of course, Serena Williams can beat him in tennis.
00:55:10.000But if we're looking at this, honestly, Serena Williams lost to the 203rd ranked male player who played 18 holes of golf before drinking and smoking in between sets and said verbally that he played like a 600th ranked male tennis player.
00:55:26.280So is that the argument that you're making?
00:55:29.620I mean, I can think of several of those moments.
00:55:31.680Again, they're the least intimidating group of people.
00:55:35.780And it didn't take you very long to figure that out, eh?
00:55:41.660I mean, I've been to Congress a number of times and it is very intimidating.
00:55:44.640It's not only the, as you said, it's not only the people who are there and whatever residual belief you have in their competence, but the history of the place, the architecture.
00:56:01.860It's, yeah, and the hopes you have that it functions credibly and competently.
00:56:10.520You know, that's part of the violation, I suppose.
00:56:13.080I had a lot more hope then than I think compared to now.
00:56:17.440And I say that even with a new administration, seeing firsthand, again, you hear it all the time where people say just how corrupt it is.
00:56:27.560I think seeing that firsthand, again, on both sides, I hate to say you lose hope, but any logical person, again, with any amount of reason and intuitiveness, I think would naturally lose hope.
00:56:45.600When you see it the way that I imagine, even yourself, people like me, I've been in D.C.
00:56:52.300I mean, I can't even tell you how many times for different events, again, testifying before Congress and the Senate.
00:57:00.480There's an event today at the White House, actually, that, of course, I couldn't make it to.
00:57:07.340But being in all those different settings and seeing the behind the scenes, I think it's, I think you would be silly to not lose hope just a little.
00:57:15.620You know, I've met a lot of good people in D.C., I must say.
00:57:24.020And the other thing, too, is that one of the things we always have to remember is Churchill's dictum, right?
00:57:33.020That democracy is the worst form of government imaginable except for all the others.
00:57:37.780And I know the U.S. is a republic and not a democracy, but the point still holds.
00:57:43.220And at least what we have in the United States is ordinary incompetence with a bit of corruption thrown in, whereas most of the world is governed by the utterly corrupt to the point where nothing can ever get done and everything's working at counterpurposes to one another.
00:57:59.880So, and now we should also point out on the positive side that you have gone to all these state legislative bodies and have had a real impact.
00:58:08.600And so despite the fact of the corruption, let's say, and the incompetence and the ideological possession that you encountered federally, you know, you haven't been doing political work for very long and yet you've had a massive impact.
00:58:21.560So let's switch to the state level and you talked about Trump's pulling of aid, of funding through the education system.
00:58:31.540Let's talk about the state level and what's happened there and point out that 28 states in what, three years, two years, that's quite the remarkable.
00:58:44.020I mean, that shows that the system is responsive and maybe that sanity can hold out against insanity when push comes to shove, if a few people stand up and make their conscience known.
00:58:54.760So talk us through the state side and then switch to the campuses and tell us what it's been like to speak on campuses, because they're generally hotbeds of utter insanity.
00:59:08.180And I think, just as you mentioned, largely why I say I appreciate and value state policy, why I feel that that's where my passion is, is because you can see real impact happening, which is pretty special.
00:59:23.700It's a pretty remarkable thing to be a part of.
00:59:25.980Your first question you asked prior to going kind of down this road that we just did was, what does that impact look like, right?
00:59:38.140How do you, as one person, like, how do you measure that impact?
00:59:42.260I see it all the time where I'm testifying.
00:59:44.860Again, these legislators have the opportunity to ask questions, whatever it is.
00:59:48.520Because so often, actually, in every legislative body that I've been to, again, coming from the Democrats, they say this isn't really happening.
00:59:57.400It's not really an issue to be concerned about.
01:00:02.460All the things the Democrats disagree with aren't happening.
01:00:05.740No one's getting their breasts cut off and no one's getting castrated.
01:00:09.060And there's no such thing as gender-affirming butchery.
01:00:12.140Well, I find when I'm there, granted, it doesn't always, of course, actually hardly ever does it change their vote necessarily.
01:00:19.200But I find when I'm there and I'm able to testify to, of course, the unfairness of it.
01:00:27.900I mean, I don't think we need me there to testify on that behalf because kindergartners seem to understand the differences between boys and girls, men and women.
01:00:36.540But I think more so when you start talking about the locker room and the violation as a, I mean, 17, 18, 19, 20-year-old girl being in this intimate space where it's already not comfortable, right?
01:00:51.500Like a locker room in general is not a comfortable place.
01:00:53.740But growing up a swimmer, at least you learn to almost be comfortable being vulnerable in that environment.
01:01:02.400But to have that vulnerability stripped from you without even a blink of an eye as a six-foot-four man fully intact undresses himself inches away from where you're simultaneously undressed.
01:01:13.540Well, fully intact and ambivalently motivated, let's put it that way.
01:01:19.880It's like, what the hell is that guy doing in the locker room?
01:01:24.420Like, whatever story he's covering himself up with is not the real story.
01:01:29.980You have every reason to be utterly terrified, I would say, of anybody pathological enough just out of sheer rudeness to put themselves in that position.
01:01:45.100I mean, let's play devil's advocate for a moment and imagine some poor unfortunate soul who truly does believe he's a woman.
01:01:53.200The mere fact that he's making all the other women highly uncomfortable should be enough so that he's willing to forego his own desire in the interest of protecting their interests.
01:02:10.360Like, if it's his interest versus the interest of 20 girls, he has to be narcissistic and self-centered to the core to put himself first.
01:02:21.980And if he's willing to put himself first in that manner, then you have no idea what else he has up his non-existent sleeve at the moment.
01:02:32.140I think you'd have to be a damn fool to be a woman with a man like that anywhere near you, especially under those vulnerable circumstances, and not be, like, thoroughly apprehensive and wonder just what the hell is going on here.
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01:03:27.920I believe the same level of apprehension should apply to those who attempt to normalize this or even celebrate it in many cases.
01:03:37.900Again, maybe they don't get to see or fully be a part of the repercussions, the circumstances that they're creating, again, that they're advocating for, oftentimes that they're celebrating.
01:03:49.600But even still, any attempt to normalize that, I believe that same sort of apprehension should be for those people who create and enforce the policies as well.
01:03:59.240But again, being in those settings where I'm able to describe this, to give them a little of that background, to allow them to understand fully what they are advocating for, it puts them, you know, it takes them back a place.
01:04:16.580Like, I imagine, especially if they have children, especially if they have daughters, that this is something they're considering with their own daughter.
01:04:24.000Would they be okay, as a Democratic lawmaker, mother or father for that matter, with their young daughter being fully undressed next to a naked man?
01:04:34.380And if their answer is yes to that, I think there's a separate conversation that needs to be had involving CPS.
01:04:40.120Because again, it doesn't get more disgusting or sick or morally indefensible than that position right there.
01:04:48.760But nonetheless, you can see the thought process at a state level.
01:04:53.880I think the people at the federal level, again, I think they believe they're untouchable.
01:04:57.920They're oftentimes not even listening to what the person on the other side of the witness stand is saying.
01:05:02.000They're on their phones, they're doing other things.
01:05:03.980But at the state level, it's a different environment entirely.
01:05:06.340And so to be able to see that and witness it and to see the impact, it's pretty powerful.
01:05:13.760And it negates the whole argument of it's not happening, because it certainly is.
01:05:18.080And oftentimes, I can give them, of course, statistics or instances of this happening in their own state or in their own district, if you will.
01:05:28.480The first is, it's unfortunate that so much public attention is directed towards DC and not the state or the municipal levels of government, where most of the power should be and all of the real action takes place.
01:05:48.520I mean, the fact that so much attention is devoted to DC or even higher up the chain, so to speak, to organizations like the WEF is an indication of the pathological centralization of power in our society, right?
01:06:05.500We'd hope for those local organizations to be the movers and shakers as they should be because they're closer to the problem.
01:06:12.800And so it's really good that you've actually seen that happen.
01:06:15.760So walk us through a typical piece of state legislation.
01:06:20.940What's being required or forbidden now in these 28 states typically?
01:06:26.980So the problem, and truthfully why I mentioned the federal portion of this when we began to talk about this topic, there's a level of enforcement you can see at the federal level.
01:06:37.960At the state level, it's oftentimes, there's not a good enforcement mechanism, if you will.
01:06:47.840Oftentimes, they resort to things like a physical, right?
01:06:52.580A standard physical that any athlete has to have prior to being able to compete on a high school team, whatever it is.
01:06:59.440Some states resort to things like birth certificate, which I believe to be a very lousy way of determining sex because your birth certificate can be changed in 44 states and, of course, across the world.
01:07:11.540We saw that with the Olympics even just this past year and prior to this past summer Olympics.
01:07:20.560So not a great enforcement mechanism at the state level.
01:08:05.640But all that to say the enforcement mechanism is not as easy to maneuver at the state level as opposed to the federal level, which is why so many states are thrilled to see the federal government get involved.
01:08:21.160So you bring up the enforcement issue.
01:08:24.440What is the legislation done practically to women's sports then?
01:08:27.960I mean, you made a positive case for the fact that these laws have been changed, but then a critical case with regards to enforcement.
01:08:35.360It's not that surprising because it isn't as if systems have been set up according to historical norms to ensure that boys only compete against boys and girls only compete against girls.
01:08:48.380We didn't need enforcement mechanisms.
01:08:50.300And it isn't even obvious what they would look like once the norm has been disrupted.
01:08:55.200So, you know, I have some sympathy for the states.
01:08:58.700I think the practical part here is it gives cover to those, you know, specific state athletic interscholastic governing bodies who say, oh, sorry, we're just following federal law or state law.
01:09:11.460Because ultimately they want, they know the right thing, right?
01:09:21.680They're able to say, oh, well, look, we're just following state law, which I believe they have wanted to do from the beginning anyways.
01:09:27.100But because you have different, whether it's different activists, again, in certain positions of authority who are pulling the strings, whether it's being controlled by different, I mean, groups, lobbying groups, any sort of, you know, pro-trans agenda activist groups who control some funds that go to, whether it's lawmakers, whatever it is.
01:09:54.200Now none of that has any effect anymore.
01:09:56.480And they're able to say, we're just following the law, which they've wanted to do from the beginning.
01:10:00.560So I think that's the practical side is everyone knew what the right thing was initially at the beginning of this since its inception.
01:10:07.960But now they can say they're doing it, have no accountability, no responsibility, and just say, well, we're just following what they're doing.
01:10:15.020And that's what this issue has become, Jordan, is a big finger-pointing competition.