The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 557. Balancing Pregnancy, Motherhood and Work ｜ Riley Gaines

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00:00:27.260 Well, I understand first that you have a big event pending in your life.

00:00:31.580 We actually just announced we are expecting a little baby girl.

00:00:35.700 You've got a busy schedule ahead of you. What will that mean for you practically?

00:00:39.400 Full steam ahead. That's how I view it.

00:00:41.360 You know, you haven't been doing political work for very long, and yet you've had a massive impact.

00:00:46.540 Clearly, now we're not living in 2020 anymore.

00:00:49.560 I would say 2025 has been a total cultural, societal, political shift from then.

00:00:55.420 That shows that the system is responsive, and maybe that sanity can hold out against insanity.

00:01:01.840 The family that I have, the home life that I have, my parents taught me to call out an injustice when I see it.

00:01:08.900 The claims that are being made to include men in women's sports on behalf of fairness are actually being made by people who,

00:01:16.300 I would say, quite bluntly, they hate people like you.

00:01:20.520 They hate people who've managed to move themselves ahead in consequence of virtue display.

00:01:29.420 Centering on fairness is a masquerade hiding malicious envy.

00:01:34.140 It's not that they're upset that you're unfair.

00:01:36.300 They despise merit.

00:01:37.860 God has a way of laughing in your face when you express any sort of interest in your plans.

00:01:43.440 He very clearly had different plans.

00:02:00.160 Munich, Porto, Brussels, Lillestrom, Amsterdam, Berlin, Budapest, Copenhagen, Gothenburg.

00:02:08.560 What do all these cities have in common?

00:02:10.580 Well, that's about a fifth of the European capitals and major cities that I'm coming to from the end of January to the end of March.

00:02:20.920 And if you go to jordanbpeterson.com, you can find venue information and tickets.

00:02:27.400 I'm bringing my tour an evening to transform your life to Europe, which seems I'm looking forward to it.

00:02:34.460 To put it that way, I've got lots of information to disseminate from my last four books on the psychological side.

00:02:42.680 And I want to share what I've learned and what I have to say with everybody who attends.

00:02:48.660 And so that's Europe, end of January, end of March, 2026.

00:02:53.200 Hope to see you there.

00:02:54.300 Today, we spoke to Riley Gaines, who made her name as a 12-time NCAA All-American swimmer and who in 2022 had to face a male swimmer in a competition.

00:03:08.180 Since then, Riley has been an indefatigable opponent of the narcissistic, psychopathic bullies who believe that it's reasonable for them to enter female sports competitions and steal the glory and the deserved accolades that they worked so hard to attain. 0.76

00:03:31.320 Riley has been instrumental in changing legislation in 28 states, and she's now working to help state legislatures and Congress define the difference between a woman and a man since we've come to that in our culture so that this unfair bullying masquerading as progressive virtue signaling can be brought to an end.

00:03:59.680 So, join us for that.

00:04:03.600 Well, Riley, you know, it's been just about exactly two years since we released our first podcast, right?

00:04:09.540 That was May 11th, 2023.

00:04:11.820 So, the first thing I'd like to know, well, I understand first that you have a big event pending in your life.

00:04:19.100 So, let's talk about that to begin with, and then we'll go over the last two years.

00:04:23.860 Yeah, I do.

00:04:25.200 We are so excited.

00:04:26.460 My husband and I, we actually just announced that we are expecting a little baby girl in just a few months.

00:04:33.540 Yeah, well, congratulations.

00:04:35.260 You're in for quite a year.

00:04:38.080 Any concerns?

00:04:39.480 What are you looking forward to?

00:04:41.620 You know, I have lots of siblings.

00:04:44.600 I'm the second oldest, so I would say I'm pretty nurturing in general.

00:04:49.820 Great, great.

00:04:50.620 Well, you know, it is true that your life will change drastically.

00:04:54.340 And the thing that surprises me, I guess, is that people reflexively assume that's a bad thing.

00:05:02.580 And assuming as well, I suppose that, and this may be the case for you, that their life is so spectacularly wonderful as single people, as soul people, before they become parents, that any change is necessarily going to be negative.

00:05:21.800 And it's very useful to enter into a situation where someone else is more important than you.

00:05:29.740 It's like the definition of maturity.

00:05:32.740 And so, it's a sign of the pathology of our culture, I think, that the typical attitude is that a baby will disrupt what's important.

00:05:45.680 I don't know what it is that people are doing that's so important that a baby would disrupt it rather than adding to it.

00:05:53.240 That's right.

00:05:54.260 I know.

00:05:54.980 It almost feels like, truthfully, I don't know, again, if it's having lots of siblings, being very family-oriented my entire life.

00:06:03.200 I don't know what it is, but it feels almost as if this was like my purpose.

00:06:08.800 And I think that's almost innate.

00:06:11.040 I think it's something a lot of women feel, especially as they reach a certain age. 0.99

00:06:14.540 But motherhood, to me, it didn't seem like an option, of course, God willing, given that I have been blessed to have the capacity to do so, and there was no issues or problems or fertility issues.

00:06:27.360 It just feels so right, so natural.

00:06:31.800 And I don't think that's—maybe it hasn't always been the case, but I think especially once you start getting into your 20s—I'm 25 at this point—it didn't seem like there was another option for me.

00:06:42.300 I couldn't imagine the alternative, so everything has felt led to where we are soon to be heading, so very, very excited.

00:06:51.620 Yeah, well, it seems to be a progressive trope that when you're in your 20s, particularly if you're female, you have nothing better to do than to serve a large evil corporation and make your way on the career path.

00:07:09.540 I've never been able to reconcile that personally, how the progressives can be radically anti-capitalist and pro-career.

00:07:18.980 It's true.

00:07:19.440 And, of course, most people don't have careers, they have jobs, and it isn't obvious at all that a job is preferable to family life.

00:07:26.760 No, that's the lie that we've been fed, I think, largely to blame the feminist movement, which has kind of become a taboo topic. 0.99

00:07:32.940 It's become cliche to say that, but I think when you really, really think about it, right, this whole girl-boss narrative that's been pushed and fed to young women, it's a total facade.

00:07:45.640 And you're right, I think it's ironic, too, that these are the same people who screech when they hear the word capitalism and what this means, yet they're the same ones who are advancing women in the workplace and what this means and how women can excel and succeed.

00:08:02.460 And, of course, I am the biggest believer of women putting themselves in positions to succeed in the athletic space and beyond.

00:08:11.140 But that's not to say that, again, there is so much value in being a mom and fulfilling your role as a woman.

00:08:20.480 The only, I guess, I mean, women can only fulfill this role. 1.00

00:08:24.740 It can go the other way around.

00:08:26.200 And there's something really beautiful and, again, magical to that that I believe serves a major purpose, of course, in life and humanity, the sheer essence of humanity.

00:08:35.380 And so what's your plan for child care for the first while?

00:08:39.940 How are you going to?

00:08:40.820 Because it's obviously there's, well, tremendous demand on your time, tremendous opportunity to spend time with your child the first year.

00:08:50.220 And so how have you guys, and you've been married for how long now?

00:08:54.180 I've been married for three years now.

00:08:56.820 My husband is from England.

00:08:59.240 He came over to the States in 2018.

00:09:01.520 He was an athlete at University of Kentucky as well.

00:09:04.300 That's where we met.

00:09:05.760 Started dating pretty immediately.

00:09:08.020 We got married in my senior year of college.

00:09:10.800 So started things off, you know, 21 years old, which is early, certainly by today's standards.

00:09:17.740 Been married a little over three years.

00:09:21.160 Decided at the beginning of this year that we would begin to try for children.

00:09:25.800 Praise God.

00:09:26.820 Actually, it was the first month we decided to really start trying that we were able to conceive in January.

00:09:34.300 So baby is due in September.

00:09:37.960 In terms of child care, what that looks like for me, not overly interested in having my child in someone else's care outside of family.

00:09:50.540 I've just heard too many horror stories.

00:09:54.000 My older sister, she had her first baby, so made me an aunt just about 10 months ago.

00:10:02.820 She works.

00:10:03.960 Her husband works.

00:10:04.760 They don't have the luxury of being able to stay home and care for that child on a daily basis.

00:10:11.120 And so he's in daycare.

00:10:14.360 And the stories that you hear and the sicknesses that he comes home with and, I mean, globally, really, these stories that you hear of, whether it's preschool teachers or daycare providers, whatever it is, and the horrific acts that you see or the negligence that you see, it's just not something that,

00:10:32.180 a position that I'm willing to put my child into.

00:10:36.400 And granted, we have the luxury.

00:10:37.900 My husband has a construction business, so he pours concrete here in Nashville, Tennessee.

00:10:44.780 So there's a bit of flexibility there, given the fact that he runs the cruise.

00:10:48.640 He's able to control his schedule to a degree.

00:10:53.320 And, of course, with the position that I have found myself in and with what I'm able to do, lots of travel, of course.

00:11:00.620 I would say I spend about 260, 70 days a year on the road.

00:11:05.740 But with that, also able to stay home, I get to kind of make my own schedule.

00:11:09.940 So, all that to say, I just don't think I'm willing to put my child's health or their care into someone else's, into their reach, so long as me and my husband are able to do it ourselves.

00:11:27.780 Yeah, well, years ago, I did a review of daycare and its effects.

00:11:33.140 And the conclusions of the research literature at that time, and I don't imagine it's changed much in the interim, was that daycare under three for children under three is really not advisable.

00:11:46.720 And that's particularly true in the first year.

00:11:49.520 And that's fundamentally because there isn't really any form of care that, I think it's safe to say that there isn't any form of care that can replace a mother's care, particularly in the first year, but really in the first three.

00:12:03.900 And that's because infants are so dependent, especially in the first nine months.

00:12:09.920 So, it is, well, it is unfortunate that we're in a situation now where it's a luxury for women to be able to stay home with their children.

00:12:21.920 And it's quite remarkable that we managed to produce that conundrum for families, for young families, over the last 30 years, as if by design.

00:12:33.140 So, well, I hope you enjoy it.

00:12:35.700 It goes by very quickly, although it seems as soon as you have a baby, it doesn't take very long before it seems like that's always been the case and it's always going to be the case, but it doesn't last long.

00:12:47.900 So, hey, so what do you think about, you got married quite young, I mean, 21.

00:12:53.700 What do you think about that?

00:12:56.220 It has been.

00:12:56.900 I mean, it's rarer now.

00:12:58.520 It is rare.

00:12:59.080 It has been the biggest blessing of my entire life.

00:13:03.240 What it has been able to provide for me, I think, getting married at 21, my husband 22 at the time, it's just a constant throughout all of the ups and downs of life.

00:13:16.180 It is a, I mean, my husband, Louis, he's my rock.

00:13:20.000 He is my best friend.

00:13:21.940 He is my confidant.

00:13:23.520 I mean, anything that I need, you have someone there who can provide for you or anything that he can do to help alleviate any sort of pressure or, I mean, anything.

00:13:35.300 It has been the biggest, biggest blessing.

00:13:37.800 And I was hesitant at first, truthfully.

00:13:39.260 I was, the way this, the timeline of this, of course, the incident, the experience that ultimately really gave me the platform that I had, that national championships where there was a man in the pool with us.

00:13:54.680 So we competed and it was actually the next day that my husband proposed to me.

00:13:59.500 At the time, my life plans were, obviously, to not be doing what I am doing now.

00:14:05.420 Who could have ever expected that this was the direction that my life would go or that this issue would continue to go?

00:14:12.780 At the time, I was set to be in dental school.

00:14:16.580 I had already accepted my seat.

00:14:19.020 I was going to University of Tennessee with hopes to specialize in endodontics, which is root canals, weirdly enough.

00:14:25.760 I had taken the DAT, which is the dental admissions test.

00:14:28.640 I had scored in the top percentile nationally, could have gone anywhere in the nation that I wanted to go to pursue dentistry, had been awarded tens of thousands of dollars in scholarship funds to continue down this career path that I had really prepared for, that I felt like was everything that I had ever imagined myself doing post-graduating undergrad.

00:14:51.740 Proposed the next day after that national championships.

00:14:55.520 Again, my mindset was dental school.

00:14:57.620 So I told him prior to proposing, like, really don't propose.

00:15:01.980 Like, I'm not ready yet.

00:15:02.880 I'm going to school.

00:15:04.320 You'll still be living in Nashville.

00:15:06.740 It just didn't make much sense to do this.

00:15:09.880 But he didn't listen to me.

00:15:11.560 And praise God that he did not listen to me.

00:15:15.020 And I think that's the funny thing about it.

00:15:17.240 Our plans, God has a way of laughing in your face when you express any sort of interest in your plans.

00:15:27.720 He very clearly had different plans.

00:15:30.000 And so, of course, I said yes when my husband proposed.

00:15:32.980 And all of those feelings of hesitation and doubt went out of the window immediately and was just so excited for what this future would look like and how we would make this work.

00:15:42.180 But in those months leading up to dental school, I realized, of course, the gravity of this issue.

00:15:49.540 How it wasn't going away.

00:15:52.180 How it was continuing to persist with no signs of slowing down.

00:15:56.240 How there were still so few voices.

00:15:58.620 So few people willing to put their name and their face to this issue.

00:16:02.300 Therefore, I almost felt an obligatory duty to continue down this road of activism, if you will.

00:16:10.980 And again, hesitant to call myself an activist at first.

00:16:14.960 Because I think when you hear the word activist, you almost picture a person with blue hair who's screeching.

00:16:21.420 And that is very much not me.

00:16:22.720 I'm not a provocateur.

00:16:23.680 I'm not an agitator.

00:16:24.580 I'm not an instigator.

00:16:25.920 I try to approach every conversation very level-headed.

00:16:30.660 So I was hesitant to call myself that.

00:16:32.960 But, of course, I realized pretty early on that I am an activist.

00:16:36.540 I'm proud to be an activist.

00:16:37.820 And we need more activists on our side.

00:16:40.560 And when I say our side, I don't mean that partisanly.

00:16:42.900 I mean on the side of common sense.

00:16:44.800 And so I realized I couldn't continue doing both dental school and this activism with the efficacy that I knew I wanted to have in each respective field.

00:16:58.380 And so I had to make a decision.

00:16:59.660 Do I continue on with dental school?

00:17:01.160 And so I'm asking my husband, what do I do?

00:17:03.580 Looking for advice.

00:17:05.100 Looking for an answer.

00:17:06.200 Sure, I'm not typically an indecisive person, but it felt like such a—I mean, this decision would predict the rest of my life.

00:17:14.740 And he just says, you know, do what you want to do, which was no help to me.

00:17:18.080 And so almost in this moment of weakness, I ended up calling the dental school, the admissions office.

00:17:23.740 Bear in mind, the entire time throughout this process of dental school, I had, again, continued my activism, but not let my peers know who I was.

00:17:35.880 I was very hesitant.

00:17:36.960 I was scared that—I mean, all the things that they told me were going to happen, right?

00:17:41.620 I would lose my friends.

00:17:42.820 I would lose my spot in dental school.

00:17:45.080 So the list goes on, you name it, all the different risks and the threats that they said exist.

00:17:49.840 I believed that at the time.

00:17:51.360 And so I didn't let anyone know who I was.

00:17:53.160 And so I called the admissions office, and very vaguely, I just said, hey, you know, something personal has come up in my life right now, and I'm just looking for guidance.

00:18:02.260 And she stopped me before I could even finish the sentence.

00:18:04.880 And she said, look, Riley, we know who you are, and we know what you do, but it took me by surprise—it really did—when she—the next thing she said was, and we love what you do.

00:18:19.900 She said, I can't tell you what to do.

00:18:21.780 Of course I can't, but I will tell you, you will have far more impact fighting that fight than you will ever have being a dentist.

00:18:28.480 So she said, you know, we'll hold your spot if that's what you choose to do.

00:18:33.920 If you choose to fight that fight, we'll hold your seat.

00:18:36.360 All of the money that you've already spent here, anytime you want to come back, you have a spot here.

00:18:41.780 But you'll have far more impact fighting that fight.

00:18:44.900 And it felt like, Jordan, it felt like God winking at me.

00:18:48.120 Like that was the clarity that I needed to ultimately feel confident and secure enough to take that initial leap of faith.

00:18:55.680 But all that to say, the question was about my husband and getting married young.

00:19:02.140 I don't think this process would have looked the same had we not gotten married, had he not proposed the day after that race happened between Will Thomas and myself.

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00:19:45.500 Now, you said that you told your husband not to propose and that you had planned to go to dental school, but he ignored you and did anyways, and then you rapidly accepted.

00:19:59.640 And so I'm curious about that.

00:20:01.420 You know, you had a very fully fleshed-out plan, one that would have led to your financial independence and a relatively prestigious professional occupation.

00:20:16.840 And so that was laid out, and you'd also explicitly told your fiancé, your soon-to-be fiancé, not to propose, yet he did, and you accepted.

00:20:31.040 And so how do you make sense of that?

00:20:34.360 This is not a critique, just obviously, but I'm very curious, you know, because you had a plan and you were somewhat insistent about it, and yet when push came to shove, you changed directions quite rapidly.

00:20:48.300 I think when, thinking back to, again, three years ago, over three years ago at this point, and the direction I believed my life to go, the school, University of Tennessee, their dental school, is actually in Memphis.

00:21:02.260 My husband, again, living in Nashville, it's about a three-hour drive.

00:21:06.300 There wasn't much of an appeal to me to living three hours away from my fiancé or from my husband.

00:21:13.900 And it wasn't something I wanted to do, it wasn't something I even felt really willing to do at the time.

00:21:20.220 But it all changed in such a brief instant when he got down on one knee.

00:21:26.700 My husband would maybe be embarrassed if I said this, but it was the most beautiful, sweetest thing ever.

00:21:32.900 Before he even got down on one knee, he was in tears, just overwhelmed with emotion at the thought of a future together.

00:21:40.160 And I saw that, and I think more so I felt that, and I saw that vision as well.

00:21:47.740 And so immediately, it almost like there wasn't even a question in my mind, was I going to say yes?

00:21:52.460 I always knew the whole time he was the person for me.

00:21:55.660 It was more so just a timing thing.

00:21:57.600 But in that moment, I was willing to do whatever it took, however we needed to adapt.

00:22:02.260 But given, you know, living three hours apart, what I believe to be living three hours apart in just a few months from that point,

00:22:11.040 seeing that and feeling that and knowing in that moment he would do anything for me,

00:22:17.360 it changed immediately to where, of course, I was going to say yes.

00:22:22.040 So initially, you presumed you would still be going to dental school after you said yes,

00:22:28.640 and it wasn't until a little later when you talked to the dental school, for example,

00:22:33.140 that you decided to forego that opportunity.

00:22:36.120 Have I got the sequence right?

00:22:38.000 Yes. Yes, sir.

00:22:39.240 So when he proposed, that was still the plan.

00:22:41.880 And it wasn't until I was already in school where ultimately I decided I just couldn't do both in the way and with the, again,

00:22:53.560 the efficacy that I knew I wanted to have in each.

00:22:56.760 Right. So how long were you in dental school?

00:22:59.940 So let's see here.

00:23:01.960 The timeline was about, we started school, I think, in July, and I ultimately made this decision in July.

00:23:11.100 So it was pretty early on.

00:23:13.460 Things had just really started to get going.

00:23:16.540 You're buying all of your gear and your equipment and all the things that you need.

00:23:22.380 But before we got super in-depth in any of the studies or things that came with the schooling part of it,

00:23:29.760 that's when I made that decision.

00:23:33.040 Okay. Okay.

00:23:33.900 So now I want to get into the direction that your life has taken.

00:23:38.280 I mean, well, since the proposal, really, really since we talked last as well.

00:23:44.520 Oh, I was thinking, too.

00:23:46.380 I don't think you are on, sorry, what was the name you used?

00:23:51.500 It wasn't agitator.

00:23:52.640 It was a provocateur.

00:23:56.820 Activist.

00:23:57.680 Activist.

00:23:58.040 I don't think you're an activist, Riley.

00:23:59.900 I think you're a conscientious objector.

00:24:01.900 I like that.

00:24:03.760 See, well, I was thinking about it.

00:24:06.680 I was thinking we needed a different name because people who speak on behalf of their conscience

00:24:13.100 aren't the same people who speak for the purposes of narcissistic self-aggrandizement and to virtue signal.

00:24:23.540 And the typical college campus activist, for example, fits very well into the narcissistic self-aggrandizement category.

00:24:32.600 In fact, there's an increasingly voluminous body of psychological research suggesting, for example, that one of the best predictors of the desire to redistribute income isn't fairness,

00:24:48.380 which, if measured properly, doesn't seem to enter into the equation at all, but malicious envy.

00:24:54.360 So, George Orwell was correct when he said that the typical middle-class socialists didn't love the poor.

00:25:01.500 They just hated the rich, which is a completely different phenomenon.

00:25:05.380 And it's also the case that the activist types tend to be narcissistic, psychopathic, Machiavellian, so they use their language to manipulate, and also sadistic.

00:25:17.300 They take positive delight in the suffering of others.

00:25:20.140 So, that's the activist crowd.

00:25:21.860 Malicious envy combined with the dark tetrad. 0.64

00:25:26.080 And you, you're not in that situation because you were responding to an unbelievably pathological sequence of events

00:25:38.020 that ended up pitting you and many other women against exactly these dark tetrad types. 1.00

00:25:44.640 The Thomas character, Will Thomas, who purported to be a woman so that he could have a competitive chance at a high level, despite the fact that he was, what, how tall is Will Thomas?

00:25:58.860 Six foot four, something like that.

00:26:01.000 That's right.

00:26:01.740 A massive man.

00:26:03.200 Right, right.

00:26:03.920 And so, you know, activist isn't right.

00:26:07.420 Like, conservative activists, generally speaking, of your sort, aren't activists.

00:26:12.560 They're speaking on behalf of their conscience.

00:26:15.480 I appreciate you saying that because, truthfully, it's one of the, and I agree entirely, it's one of the biggest pieces of criticism that I receive from those on the other side.

00:26:26.340 Is they say, well, you're just doing this, you know, you're being a grifter.

00:26:29.760 That's the word they use, grifter.

00:26:32.560 Which is amazing to me because, again, you think back to 2021, 2022, when this all came about.

00:26:39.740 It wasn't the cool thing to say that men and women are different.

00:26:45.280 But I think back to the risk that I believed I was taking.

00:26:49.120 Granted, I will say a lot of those things, actually virtually all of those things, right?

00:26:53.820 Again, I told you how they said, you know, you'll lose your friends.

00:26:57.040 They told us in undergrad, you'll lose your scholarship.

00:26:59.840 They told us awful things about how our rhetoric was killing people, how we were essentially murderers in this equation, telling us how we were equivalent to the KKK and white supremacists because we were advocating for segregation.

00:27:14.020 All things, again, a shame to say it, as a staunch, well, I will say as a Christian my entire life, of course, with leaving me with staunch conservative views my entire life, all those things I believed, but none of them have happened.

00:27:28.800 I haven't lost a single friend.

00:27:30.700 But nonetheless, that was the environment in 2020.

00:27:35.220 Clearly, now we're not living in 2020 anymore.

00:27:37.840 I would say 2025 has been a total cultural, societal, political shift from then.

00:27:46.060 But it wasn't the cool thing to say.

00:27:49.160 I believed I was taking a lot of risk at the time.

00:27:52.180 Granted, there have only been opportunities for me.

00:27:55.620 I've only made more friends, developed more relationships, which again goes to show you, I think,

00:28:02.020 just how silent the silent majority was only a few years ago.

00:28:08.240 But this word grifter, it's been totally, that word, it irks me so badly.

00:28:15.260 No one can give you a proper definition of what it means, and they can't stand the fact when you speak based on your ethics or your moral compass or your conscience, as you said.

00:28:26.240 Yeah, well, I leaned into that idea very early, because one of the things I realized pretty much immediately was that there was almost nothing more comical than making money off of progressives.

00:28:39.780 You know, one of the things we do, which I think is extremely funny, when I'm touring and lecturing, now and then there's protests, although they're getting pretty few and far between.

00:28:49.260 And we made it a policy to film the protests and to use them in advertisements, because I think it's reasonable to be, and maybe it was a little different for me than it would be for you. 0.95

00:29:05.020 Maybe our situation was somewhat different, but I don't think there's anything more comical than making money from progressive idiocy.

00:29:12.660 It's perfectly comical, and so, and that's the idea that, the idea, I suppose, is that you did it for the fame, for the glory, for the money.

00:29:23.200 But as you point out, and this was certainly the case with me as well, the probability that, well, first of all, your belief that speaking out was likely to lead to disaster would have likely been true four years earlier.

00:29:42.980 You know, you probably just caught the, you just caught the transition, so to speak, in 2020.

00:29:50.640 It was starting to become acceptable to say that things that you were saying.

00:29:57.000 But four years earlier, you certainly would have paid for it dearly, and you had every reason to assume in 2020 that the same would be the case.

00:30:05.620 Plus, if you're going to be a grifter, opposing the woke mob is a very, what would you say, high-risk, high-risk endeavor with a low probability of payoff.

00:30:20.280 So, it's not much of a grift.

00:30:23.240 You have to dance pretty hard to make it into something that's monetarily successful, even though it is hilarious if you can manage it.

00:30:30.960 So, so, so much for that.

00:30:33.000 I would also say a fair bit of that is projection.

00:30:36.220 Like I said, I've been following the psychological research on the personality traits of the activist types, and this goes for the nature-worshipping environmentalists as well.

00:30:45.780 And it's almost entirely performative and narcissistic.

00:30:49.220 And so, when people like that see someone taking a public stance, their logical assumption is that, their logical assumption for them to make is that such people must be motivated by the same motivations they share, even though that's clearly not the case.

00:31:08.420 So, so, so, so much for the grift angle.

00:31:13.640 And a fair bit of that's jealousy and spite making itself manifest in social media channels as well.

00:31:21.540 So, okay, so back to, back to your decision to continue with your political work.

00:31:28.820 Let's call it that and not your activism, your political and communication, your political work and your communication, which is what you're doing.

00:31:35.840 So, you were in dental school, and what sort of opportunities, tell me, tell me what you're, you said you were, you know, traveling 260 days out of the year, which is pretty much all the time.

00:31:49.620 Tell me what a typical week or two-week period or month has looked like.

00:31:54.860 Maybe we can start back in 2022 or thereabouts, or even, well, we talked in, we talked in March of 2023.

00:32:03.880 So, maybe we can pick it up there.

00:32:06.040 Tell me what a typical week or day or month looks like for you now.

00:32:10.620 Well, I think it looks very different now than at the beginning, but I think the beginning has ultimately led me to where I am now.

00:32:17.920 Again, going back to 2022, or even when we spoke in 2023, I very much had this mindset of just saying yes to whoever and whatever the opportunity was,

00:32:30.020 so long as it gave this issue more credibility or credence, things to talk about.

00:32:37.900 So, oftentimes, that would mean getting in front of different legislative bodies.

00:32:42.480 One of the things that, honestly, I think to be one of my greatest passions throughout all of these, the different aspects and realms that come with this position that I have found myself in,

00:32:58.640 I have loved the state policy side of things.

00:33:02.040 And so, traveling all over, I know, traveling all over the nation to help draft legislation, to speak with lawmakers, teach them how to talk about these issues, to testify,

00:33:15.040 to be there for any sort of ceremonial signings on bills that I helped work on.

00:33:20.860 And, of course, none of that is paid work.

00:33:25.660 It's just being willing to lend a helping hand when and where it's needed.

00:33:32.180 So, that's taken a lot.

00:33:33.560 You mentioned the campus activism.

00:33:36.260 That's something that I've truthfully loved, I think, for a couple reasons.

00:33:41.280 I think, number one, you're able to push back on the narrative that's out there of you.

00:33:45.500 Again, I'm so often, people in my comments on social media, whatever it is, I mean, they act like I'm this big, scary monster.

00:33:54.080 Jordan, I'm 5'5", and, like, 130 pounds, like, I'm not this evil, scary being.

00:34:01.560 I'm just a girl, a woman at this point, who was desperately wanting fairness and a chance to compete and to succeed.

00:34:13.640 That's it.

00:34:14.280 So, to be able to push back on the narrative that's out there, but also to engage and mobilize the younger generation, the youth, I feel so passionately about that.

00:34:23.140 I think we're a demographic that's often left out of these important deemed political conversations.

00:34:29.520 Which demographic are you speaking of?

00:34:31.940 Specifically college-age kids.

00:34:33.580 I would say first-time voters.

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00:35:46.060 Are you speaking more to boys or girls or men or women?

00:35:53.400 I would say it's a pretty good split, although, you know, maybe thinking of some of the different audiences I found myself in, I think it's natural to assume maybe there are more women there, given this is an issue that, of course, you and I know affects all of humanity.

00:36:07.960 But you see the statistics, how women are being more adversely affected, whatever it is.

00:36:14.320 So I would say it's a lot of, it's a good mix, but maybe more so women. 1.00

00:36:20.860 Um, so I have, I've really loved that aspect of it.

00:36:26.420 Um, something I, I feel, feel very passionately about just, just, I think part of it's being an athlete too, growing up an athlete, uh, competing at the highest level, almost that mentorship, if you will.

00:36:37.480 Um, I love that.

00:36:39.640 And I feel like that's what I'm able to provide on these campuses.

00:36:42.920 So I've been to about 80 or probably upwards of a hundred now, different campuses, both colleges.

00:36:50.000 And then I would say last year, I really started going to high schools too.

00:36:53.660 And, uh, wasn't, wasn't overly in, you know, I didn't know if this was a good idea at first getting in front of high school students.

00:37:02.240 They're so young.

00:37:03.480 Uh, we have, uh, you know, there's not a lot of, we're not on the same maturity level.

00:37:08.860 We're not at the same stage of life anymore, me being a 25 year old woman at this point.

00:37:14.020 Um, but I realized the other side, uh, they don't have a, an age to which they're not willing to talk to.

00:37:21.440 Therefore, our side shouldn't either.

00:37:23.380 Uh, we should be able to feel comfortable, uh, being raw and being vulnerable and speaking the truth to, to all ages.

00:37:31.140 I think especially high school kids, again, such an impressionable age, uh, so much life ahead of you, yet you're in that position, you know, 16, 17.

00:37:38.860 17, 18 years old, where you're making decisions that will impact the rest of your life, what that looks like.

00:37:45.940 Uh, so that's been a large part of what I do.

00:37:47.800 That's what's kept me on the road a lot of times as well.

00:37:51.320 Um, so for a while it was totally like flying by the seat of my pants.

00:37:57.160 But I will say now, I think especially after Donald Trump winning, uh, on November 5th of last year, with a little more stability, a little more coverage to, um, more people who are willing to, to say what you and I have been saying for a long time now.

00:38:16.660 Uh, it's, it's almost like there, you can, like there's a little army that's been deployed.

00:38:23.420 Uh, so with that, you can kind of take a step back, observe, and see where you're really, really needed.

00:38:28.880 And of course, I'll be there if that's the case.

00:38:31.980 So let's talk about the state legislative bodies.

00:38:36.720 So how many state legislative bodies approximately have you spoken in front of, and how would you describe and gauge your impact on the legislative side?

00:38:46.680 And, and I know it's what, about half the states now have legislation either in place or pending, regulating the participation of, of, well, really men in women's sports, because you very rarely see the reverse.

00:38:59.300 So walk us through that.

00:39:01.940 Yes.

00:39:02.280 So I couldn't even tell you how many states, but I, there are 28 states now that have passed some sort of fairness in women's sports bill.

00:39:10.300 Ultimately, as you said, preventing men's participation on women's sports and vice versa.

00:39:15.800 Uh, Nebraska being the most recent, uh, I've been to virtually and testified in front of virtually all of these, these state legislatures.

00:39:25.420 And of course, uh, this doesn't include the states that have not passed legislation, uh, states like Maine, for example, or Connecticut, uh, or California.

00:39:38.680 Um, so, so lots of work being done there.

00:39:41.480 Where they still think, where they still think it's fair for men to, for narcissistic men to steal the accomplishments of hardworking and diligent young women in the name of fairness, right? 0.98

00:39:54.800 They're going to reward these narcissistic psychopaths and, and, and let them, and, and often they're, they're, they're, uh, they're even more narcissistic and, and grasping parents who push them forward and into these sorts of competitions.

00:40:13.660 You say where these, these Democrats, and I hate to make it partisan, but again, that's the reality.

00:40:19.520 Uh, I hate this is a partisan issue, but, uh, it's fallen entirely on party lines at every level, local, state, and federal.

00:40:27.620 Uh, so you say these Democrats, they, they do this out of what they believe to be is fair.

00:40:32.700 I don't think that's a fair characterization.

00:40:34.460 I don't think they, they're doing this because they think it's fair.

00:40:37.340 Uh, I think they're, they're advocating for this position because they believe it to be necessary.

00:40:44.020 They're willing to compromise on the fairness piece and the safety piece if it means inclusion is prioritized.

00:40:50.200 Yeah, well, Riley, the, the data that I was describing to you, if you, if you add, imagine you use three variables to predict support for these sorts of policies.

00:41:01.580 One is malicious envy, one is fairness, and the other is compassion.

00:41:08.020 Compassion does predict somewhat, but malicious envy is the best predictor.

00:41:12.960 Fairness, as it turns out, doesn't enter it into at all, even though that's the claim.

00:41:18.180 And so I would say, and I think it's useful to be realistic about this, is that the claims that are being made to include men in women's sports on behalf of fairness are actually being made by people who,

00:41:30.420 I would say, I would say quite bluntly, they hate people like you.

00:41:35.380 They hate people who've, who've managed to move themselves ahead in consequence of, to some degree, their good fortune because you were, you know, you were fortunate to be healthy.

00:41:49.860 But it also takes a tremendous amount of discipline to be a high level competitive athlete, even a moderate level competitive athlete.

00:41:57.980 And so all of this virtue display centering on fairness is a masquerade hiding malicious envy.

00:42:09.200 And that's partly why you get the kind of resistance that you get, too, and the anger.

00:42:14.620 It's not that they're upset that you're unfair.

00:42:17.020 It's that they despise merit.

00:42:20.900 And it's the story of Cain, you know, it's the biblical story of Cain.

00:42:25.340 Malicious envy as a mode of adaptation.

00:42:28.320 And it's very necessary to unmask this and to call it for, call it what it is.

00:42:33.900 And the fairness is nothing but the camouflage of Pharisees. 0.67

00:42:38.580 And so, okay, so, so 28 legislative bodies have passed legislation now.

00:42:44.160 And so what does that mean?

00:42:45.980 And then you name some major states, including California, where all the pathology of the United States seem to fundamentally emanate from, are still too, I don't know what it is, lost in 2016 to understand that the tide is viciously turned.

00:43:05.820 What has it meant for women's sports now, the fact that 28 states have passed legislation?

00:43:11.380 And can you give us some idea of what that legislation, like, what's a typical piece of legislation that you've been involved with?

00:43:18.240 What does it look like?

00:43:19.600 Absolutely.

00:43:19.980 Well, to speak from the federal level first, as that's what's garnered a lot of attention recently with how President Trump has responded to people like Governor Newsom or like Governor Mills of Maine, what they've done at the federal level, of course, with Title IX, which, as we are recording right now, today is the 53rd anniversary of Title IX.

00:43:42.080 So it feels very timely, this conversation, but what that looks like is stripping of federal funds.

00:43:50.020 At the state level, truthfully, there's not—

00:43:53.060 Federal funds from what?

00:43:54.120 Federal funds from what?

00:43:55.280 What disappears?

00:43:56.660 From the education K-12.

00:43:59.500 That's why we have seen really a lot of this Title IX, even they have now a special investigations unit that is the Department of Education kind of coupled with the Department of Justice.

00:44:10.000 But a lot of it is managed under the Department of Education or the Office of Civil Rights.

00:44:16.020 So that's a lot of what the federal funds issue being stripped.

00:44:21.620 So for—take California, for example, a very different demographic than that of Maine.

00:44:26.500 Well, let's look at Maine first.

00:44:28.260 Maine, a very small, a very poor state.

00:44:31.820 I don't know the exact number of how much they receive in federal funds annually every single year.

00:44:40.420 I think it's somewhere $250 million-ish that go to education K-12.

00:44:49.780 Governor Mills is willing to risk all of that.

00:44:52.280 That's like what covers school lunches.

00:44:54.100 Like, okay, like this is—important funds in Maine, a very small state, will not survive without federal funds.

00:45:00.140 They just can't.

00:45:01.220 Yet even still, knowing this, you have Governor Mills, who I think thought she had this mic drop moment.

00:45:08.680 The interaction went viral where she, you know, looks at President Trump all defiantly and she says, well, I'll see you in court.

00:45:16.180 To which he's like, yeah, okay, sure, you will.

00:45:20.080 California, on the other hand, they receive, I think, $8 billion in federal funds.

00:45:24.720 And so, again, that's a huge chunk of money that you have a guy who's willing to risk that to continue to allow for this to happen.

00:45:36.760 So much so, actually, that—

00:45:37.720 And to happen, that's to have boys playing in girls' sports in K-12 competitions.

00:45:44.760 That's right.

00:45:45.500 And intramurals.

00:45:46.400 That's right.

00:45:46.860 But it doesn't just stop there.

00:45:48.520 I think it's different statutes, different laws that are being violated.

00:45:53.160 But nonetheless, Donald Trump has issued executive orders barring men from entering into women's prisons.

00:45:58.760 Of course, bear in mind, these are oftentimes violent sexual offenders, these male inmates, who are realizing that the quickest way to get into a woman's prison, which sounds awesome to a rapist, by the way, is to say, I am a woman.

00:46:14.720 That's the only qualification in states like California.

00:46:17.520 Yeah, I think that's actually one of the most egregious examples of progressive insanity that has made itself manifest in the last 10 years.

00:46:29.040 You remember Nicola Sturgeon?

00:46:30.520 She used to be prime minister of Scotland. 0.88

00:46:32.920 Oh, yes, she's quite the piece of work. 1.00

00:46:34.780 So her presumption was any man who says he's a woman is a woman.

00:46:39.840 And as a psychopathologist, I look at that and I think, any man, hey, Nicola, what do you know about psychopathological men?

00:46:50.020 Like, what do you know about the psychology of serial killers and rapists?

00:46:54.940 Are those the sort of men that inhabit your worst nightmares or are they victims in your progressive thinking?

00:47:01.660 And these are the sort of victims that you don't want to find under your bed at night, that's for sure.

00:47:06.180 So you get this weird extension of compassion as well as malicious envy and a fair bit of, you know, underground malevolence that expends itself in the presumption that all men, bar none, who say they're women are women. 0.90

00:47:25.400 Well, that did in Nicola Sturgeon, because, of course, what happened in Scotland was that the serial rapists and killers, exactly as you pointed out, thought, well, you just think about how foolish you have to be to assume that someone who's a serial rapist is going to have moral qualms about claiming that he's a woman when really he's not. 0.57

00:47:49.440 Right? Rape is fine, right? Rape is fine, but he's going to all of a sudden be 100% honest when he defines his gender identity. 0.98

00:47:57.720 None of that's convenient and that's why, because these absolutely malevolent men are victims? Is that the hypothesis?

00:48:04.780 Or I just, I truly struggle to understand it. It's so viciously naive that it's a miracle of inverted thinking.

00:48:19.840 Anyways, it did in Nicola, thank God, because she so deserved it.

00:48:23.240 That's the way you see it. And that's the way 90 plus percent of Americans see it. They say it's a 70-30, 80-20 issue. I believe it's more drastic than that, actually. And 100% of people with any, a shred of honesty or a moral compass or any amount of common sense see it that way, too.

00:48:43.120 And again, I think a large part in why we saw the shift that we did in November, even amongst, we talked about the younger demographic, even amongst younger people. I don't think, well, let me clarify. I do believe that people turned out to the polls to embrace Donald Trump and to embrace his America First agenda and to embrace, you know, his cabinet picks.

00:49:02.460 But Jordan, more so, I believe that people turned out to the polls to reject absurdity. And that is absolutely and entirely, I mean, thoroughly what the Democratic Party has become from top to bottom. Again, every single, there's no such thing as a moderate Democrat anymore, at least not an elected Democrat. Look at the way that mainstream media is framed. There's no such thing as moderation.

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00:50:35.560 Well, there's no moderation if the insistence is that a man can become a woman. I mean, anybody who swallows that will swallow anything. That is literally, that is literally the biggest lie that you can foist upon people. 0.87

00:50:51.060 You know, even creatures without a woman. Even creatures without a woman. Even creatures without a nervous system can tell the difference between the sexes. I think it's the most fundamental perceptual category is sex differentiation. So if you violate that, there's nothing you can violate that's more fundamental than the distinction between male and female.

00:51:10.120 And so, to the degree that, to be a Democrat, you have to support the trans phenomena, gender-affirming surgery, and the right of psychopathic, narcissistic men to compete against deserving women in their own sports competitions, then you've sold your soul 100% to the devil and there's no way back. 0.59

00:51:31.660 And I don't think this is a partisan issue exactly because it isn't a classic left-right split. I don't think that classic left-right split even exists anymore. I think it's nihilistic, deluded nihilistic Machiavellian hedonists versus everyone else. And unfortunately, there's a fair number of the former.

00:51:52.020 And so, you know, when the election shifted, I had thought for a while about inviting some prominent Democrats onto my podcast. And I had reached out to a number of the people that I know in the podcast world to see if they would platform some Democrats, given the presumption that having a sane opposition

00:52:20.220 to the Trump Republicans might be good for everyone, given that it's useful in the kind of political system that we inhabit to have a credible opposition.

00:52:33.600 And I worked with one of my compatriots who has superb connections within the Democrat Party and Democratic Party and who knows everyone, I would say, of note and is well-trusted.

00:52:46.860 And his conclusion was that he couldn't think of anyone at the federal level who was capable of having an unscripted two-and-a-half-hour conversation. That wouldn't be a catastrophe.

00:52:58.740 All of them have sold their tongue to their junior staffers and, you know, test everything they say for its reception, our political actors right to the core.

00:53:14.180 And I don't think there's anyone in the Democratic Party who is capable and competent. No one.

00:53:22.560 Maybe that's a bit of an overstatement, but you can see in their dearth of leadership, you can certainly see that.

00:53:27.900 It's funny you say that because I can recall the first time I testified before Congress, again, being, what, maybe 22, 23 at the time.

00:53:38.980 Naturally, you're so nervous, right? Like, I was a nervous wreck sitting in front of these people who are incredibly intimidating, whether, regardless of their political affiliation, understanding these are our lawmakers.

00:53:52.900 These are the people who, you know, hold the purse strings, even, if you will.

00:53:56.600 So it took me all of five minutes to realize what a silly perception that was to have going into this.

00:54:06.720 I realized if you get them off of their little piece of paper that their staffers prepared for them, they really know nothing.

00:54:15.280 Like, they're the least intimidating group of people that I've sat in front of.

00:54:20.620 Truthfully, I mean that because it is also scripted.

00:54:23.660 And so I realized there were several, I mean, moments in these back and forths that we had that you can just stop them in their tracks.

00:54:34.160 They don't have a response for you.

00:54:35.740 So much so to the point where the Democrats stopped asking me questions entirely.

00:54:39.360 And they would just go to only their witnesses.

00:54:42.300 I think they thought they could trip me up in several cases.

00:54:45.240 One was with, I can think of a few.

00:54:49.160 There was one interaction between a Democrat who said something to the effect of, you know, well, Serena Williams could beat a lot of men in this.

00:54:58.860 To which my response is, is, okay, if you're referring to people like Senator Kennedy from Louisiana, of course, Serena Williams can beat him in tennis.

00:55:10.000 But if we're looking at this, honestly, Serena Williams lost to the 203rd ranked male player who played 18 holes of golf before drinking and smoking in between sets and said verbally that he played like a 600th ranked male tennis player.

00:55:26.280 So is that the argument that you're making?

00:55:29.620 I mean, I can think of several of those moments.

00:55:31.680 Again, they're the least intimidating group of people.

00:55:35.780 And it didn't take you very long to figure that out, eh?

00:55:38.240 No, five minutes.

00:55:40.100 Hmm.

00:55:40.460 Well, that's quite impressive.

00:55:41.660 I mean, I've been to Congress a number of times and it is very intimidating.

00:55:44.640 It's not only the, as you said, it's not only the people who are there and whatever residual belief you have in their competence, but the history of the place, the architecture.

00:56:01.860 It's, yeah, and the hopes you have that it functions credibly and competently.

00:56:10.520 You know, that's part of the violation, I suppose.

00:56:13.080 I had a lot more hope then than I think compared to now.

00:56:17.440 And I say that even with a new administration, seeing firsthand, again, you hear it all the time where people say just how corrupt it is.

00:56:27.560 I think seeing that firsthand, again, on both sides, I hate to say you lose hope, but any logical person, again, with any amount of reason and intuitiveness, I think would naturally lose hope.

00:56:45.600 When you see it the way that I imagine, even yourself, people like me, I've been in D.C.

00:56:52.300 I mean, I can't even tell you how many times for different events, again, testifying before Congress and the Senate.

00:57:00.480 There's an event today at the White House, actually, that, of course, I couldn't make it to.

00:57:07.340 But being in all those different settings and seeing the behind the scenes, I think it's, I think you would be silly to not lose hope just a little.

00:57:15.620 You know, I've met a lot of good people in D.C., I must say.

00:57:21.000 And so there is that side of it.

00:57:24.020 And the other thing, too, is that one of the things we always have to remember is Churchill's dictum, right?

00:57:33.020 That democracy is the worst form of government imaginable except for all the others.

00:57:37.780 And I know the U.S. is a republic and not a democracy, but the point still holds.

00:57:43.220 And at least what we have in the United States is ordinary incompetence with a bit of corruption thrown in, whereas most of the world is governed by the utterly corrupt to the point where nothing can ever get done and everything's working at counterpurposes to one another.

00:57:59.880 So, and now we should also point out on the positive side that you have gone to all these state legislative bodies and have had a real impact.

00:58:08.600 And so despite the fact of the corruption, let's say, and the incompetence and the ideological possession that you encountered federally, you know, you haven't been doing political work for very long and yet you've had a massive impact.

00:58:21.560 So let's switch to the state level and you talked about Trump's pulling of aid, of funding through the education system.

00:58:31.540 Let's talk about the state level and what's happened there and point out that 28 states in what, three years, two years, that's quite the remarkable.

00:58:42.620 Well, that's remarkable, right?

00:58:44.020 I mean, that shows that the system is responsive and maybe that sanity can hold out against insanity when push comes to shove, if a few people stand up and make their conscience known.

00:58:54.760 So talk us through the state side and then switch to the campuses and tell us what it's been like to speak on campuses, because they're generally hotbeds of utter insanity.

00:59:06.440 Yeah, to put it mildly.

00:59:08.180 And I think, just as you mentioned, largely why I say I appreciate and value state policy, why I feel that that's where my passion is, is because you can see real impact happening, which is pretty special.

00:59:23.700 It's a pretty remarkable thing to be a part of.

00:59:25.980 Your first question you asked prior to going kind of down this road that we just did was, what does that impact look like, right?

00:59:38.140 How do you, as one person, like, how do you measure that impact?

00:59:42.260 I see it all the time where I'm testifying.

00:59:44.860 Again, these legislators have the opportunity to ask questions, whatever it is.

00:59:48.520 Because so often, actually, in every legislative body that I've been to, again, coming from the Democrats, they say this isn't really happening.

00:59:57.400 It's not really an issue to be concerned about.

01:00:01.600 Yeah, I know.

01:00:02.460 All the things the Democrats disagree with aren't happening. 0.83

01:00:05.740 No one's getting their breasts cut off and no one's getting castrated. 0.95

01:00:09.060 And there's no such thing as gender-affirming butchery. 0.97

01:00:12.140 Well, I find when I'm there, granted, it doesn't always, of course, actually hardly ever does it change their vote necessarily.

01:00:19.200 But I find when I'm there and I'm able to testify to, of course, the unfairness of it.

01:00:27.900 I mean, I don't think we need me there to testify on that behalf because kindergartners seem to understand the differences between boys and girls, men and women.

01:00:36.540 But I think more so when you start talking about the locker room and the violation as a, I mean, 17, 18, 19, 20-year-old girl being in this intimate space where it's already not comfortable, right?

01:00:51.500 Like a locker room in general is not a comfortable place.

01:00:53.740 But growing up a swimmer, at least you learn to almost be comfortable being vulnerable in that environment.

01:01:02.400 But to have that vulnerability stripped from you without even a blink of an eye as a six-foot-four man fully intact undresses himself inches away from where you're simultaneously undressed.

01:01:13.540 Well, fully intact and ambivalently motivated, let's put it that way.

01:01:19.880 It's like, what the hell is that guy doing in the locker room?

01:01:24.420 Like, whatever story he's covering himself up with is not the real story.

01:01:29.980 You have every reason to be utterly terrified, I would say, of anybody pathological enough just out of sheer rudeness to put themselves in that position.

01:01:43.160 How selfish can you get?

01:01:45.100 I mean, let's play devil's advocate for a moment and imagine some poor unfortunate soul who truly does believe he's a woman. 0.82

01:01:53.200 The mere fact that he's making all the other women highly uncomfortable should be enough so that he's willing to forego his own desire in the interest of protecting their interests.

01:02:10.360 Like, if it's his interest versus the interest of 20 girls, he has to be narcissistic and self-centered to the core to put himself first.

01:02:21.980 And if he's willing to put himself first in that manner, then you have no idea what else he has up his non-existent sleeve at the moment.

01:02:29.580 So, there's real reason. 0.98

01:02:32.140 I think you'd have to be a damn fool to be a woman with a man like that anywhere near you, especially under those vulnerable circumstances, and not be, like, thoroughly apprehensive and wonder just what the hell is going on here. 0.99

01:02:45.620 Did you know that over 85% of grass-fed beef sold in U.S. grocery stores is imported? 0.99

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01:03:27.920 I believe the same level of apprehension should apply to those who attempt to normalize this or even celebrate it in many cases.

01:03:37.900 Again, maybe they don't get to see or fully be a part of the repercussions, the circumstances that they're creating, again, that they're advocating for, oftentimes that they're celebrating.

01:03:49.600 But even still, any attempt to normalize that, I believe that same sort of apprehension should be for those people who create and enforce the policies as well.

01:03:59.240 But again, being in those settings where I'm able to describe this, to give them a little of that background, to allow them to understand fully what they are advocating for, it puts them, you know, it takes them back a place.

01:04:16.580 Like, I imagine, especially if they have children, especially if they have daughters, that this is something they're considering with their own daughter.

01:04:24.000 Would they be okay, as a Democratic lawmaker, mother or father for that matter, with their young daughter being fully undressed next to a naked man?

01:04:34.380 And if their answer is yes to that, I think there's a separate conversation that needs to be had involving CPS.

01:04:40.120 Because again, it doesn't get more disgusting or sick or morally indefensible than that position right there.

01:04:48.760 But nonetheless, you can see the thought process at a state level.

01:04:53.880 I think the people at the federal level, again, I think they believe they're untouchable.

01:04:57.920 They're oftentimes not even listening to what the person on the other side of the witness stand is saying.

01:05:02.000 They're on their phones, they're doing other things.

01:05:03.980 But at the state level, it's a different environment entirely.

01:05:06.340 And so to be able to see that and witness it and to see the impact, it's pretty powerful.

01:05:13.760 And it negates the whole argument of it's not happening, because it certainly is.

01:05:18.080 And oftentimes, I can give them, of course, statistics or instances of this happening in their own state or in their own district, if you will.

01:05:27.560 Okay, two things there.

01:05:28.480 The first is, it's unfortunate that so much public attention is directed towards DC and not the state or the municipal levels of government, where most of the power should be and all of the real action takes place.

01:05:48.520 I mean, the fact that so much attention is devoted to DC or even higher up the chain, so to speak, to organizations like the WEF is an indication of the pathological centralization of power in our society, right?

01:06:05.500 We'd hope for those local organizations to be the movers and shakers as they should be because they're closer to the problem.

01:06:12.800 And so it's really good that you've actually seen that happen.

01:06:15.760 So walk us through a typical piece of state legislation.

01:06:20.940 What's being required or forbidden now in these 28 states typically?

01:06:26.980 So the problem, and truthfully why I mentioned the federal portion of this when we began to talk about this topic, there's a level of enforcement you can see at the federal level.

01:06:37.960 At the state level, it's oftentimes, there's not a good enforcement mechanism, if you will.

01:06:47.840 Oftentimes, they resort to things like a physical, right?

01:06:52.580 A standard physical that any athlete has to have prior to being able to compete on a high school team, whatever it is.

01:06:59.440 Some states resort to things like birth certificate, which I believe to be a very lousy way of determining sex because your birth certificate can be changed in 44 states and, of course, across the world.

01:07:11.540 We saw that with the Olympics even just this past year and prior to this past summer Olympics.

01:07:20.560 So not a great enforcement mechanism at the state level.

01:07:27.300 There are threats, of course.

01:07:28.760 They say, you know, there will be a punishment if you allow for this.

01:07:33.700 But oftentimes, they don't really even clarify what that punishment will be.

01:07:39.980 That's why you have so many states who are, who, I mean, blatantly ignore even state law.

01:07:45.640 Even in West Virginia right now, right?

01:07:47.700 West Virginia, which had 100% of their counties turn out in support for Donald Trump.

01:07:53.220 They've got a little boy throwing shot put, track and field there.

01:07:58.660 Granted, I believe this is a bit different because it's being held up in a legal system somewhere.

01:08:03.300 He's allowed to compete.

01:08:05.640 But all that to say the enforcement mechanism is not as easy to maneuver at the state level as opposed to the federal level, which is why so many states are thrilled to see the federal government get involved.

01:08:20.580 Right, right.

01:08:21.160 So you bring up the enforcement issue.

01:08:24.440 What is the legislation done practically to women's sports then?

01:08:27.960 I mean, you made a positive case for the fact that these laws have been changed, but then a critical case with regards to enforcement.

01:08:35.360 It's not that surprising because it isn't as if systems have been set up according to historical norms to ensure that boys only compete against boys and girls only compete against girls.

01:08:46.700 That was the social norm.

01:08:48.380 We didn't need enforcement mechanisms.

01:08:50.300 And it isn't even obvious what they would look like once the norm has been disrupted.

01:08:55.200 So, you know, I have some sympathy for the states.

01:08:58.700 I think the practical part here is it gives cover to those, you know, specific state athletic interscholastic governing bodies who say, oh, sorry, we're just following federal law or state law.

01:09:11.460 Because ultimately they want, they know the right thing, right?

01:09:15.380 Just like the Democrats do.

01:09:17.100 They know what the right thing is.

01:09:19.600 Now they're able to do it.

01:09:21.680 They're able to say, oh, well, look, we're just following state law, which I believe they have wanted to do from the beginning anyways.

01:09:27.100 But because you have different, whether it's different activists, again, in certain positions of authority who are pulling the strings, whether it's being controlled by different, I mean, groups, lobbying groups, any sort of, you know, pro-trans agenda activist groups who control some funds that go to, whether it's lawmakers, whatever it is.

01:09:54.200 Now none of that has any effect anymore.

01:09:56.480 And they're able to say, we're just following the law, which they've wanted to do from the beginning.

01:10:00.560 So I think that's the practical side is everyone knew what the right thing was initially at the beginning of this since its inception.

01:10:07.960 But now they can say they're doing it, have no accountability, no responsibility, and just say, well, we're just following what they're doing.

01:10:15.020 And that's what this issue has become, Jordan, is a big finger-pointing competition.

01:10:19.580 But we're just following this person.

01:10:20.920 And this person will say, well, I'm just following the IOC.

01:10:24.120 The IOC says, well, I'm just following, you know, what each specific sport governing body wants to do.

01:10:30.480 It's a big finger-pointing competition.

01:10:32.060 And so if they can point a finger and say, well, they said to do it this way, that's exactly what's going to happen.

01:10:37.200 So why do you think, let me ask you a personal question, then we'll turn to the campus issue.

01:10:42.360 You just made a very strong case that people want to defer the responsibility or the authority to someone else.

01:10:51.800 And that's like, that's a herd animal or a fish school mentality, right?

01:10:56.060 To hide against the crowd.

01:10:58.780 And so why do you think, why do you think you decided that you were going to speak out?

01:11:05.980 And what have you learned from your interactions with other people who have done, who've taken similar steps to you?

01:11:16.320 Let me give a little bit of background here.

01:11:18.420 You know, like I had studied totalitarianism and herd behavior for a very long time before things blew up around me in 2016.

01:11:28.060 But I got to tell you, even with all that preparation, which was like three decades of study,

01:11:34.740 the staggeringly high disproportion of people who will remain silent and hide in the herd

01:11:42.860 compared to the tiny percentage of people who will follow the dictates of their conscience has really come as a shock to me.

01:11:52.420 So I'm curious about, I know that's a leading question now, but I'm curious about your experience

01:11:57.960 and why you think it was necessary for you or possible for you to stick your neck out

01:12:04.560 when you could have remained silent like, well, like most of the girls did,

01:12:09.420 whose rights were being like brutally trampled upon.

01:12:14.780 I think of a couple things and maybe even a couple defining moments.

01:12:20.080 I think back to that national championships and the events that ensued.

01:12:25.800 And of course, we raised me and this man and we tied and ultimately I was denied the trophy.

01:12:32.120 As they said, it was necessary when, you know, photos were being taken that he was holding the trophy.

01:12:38.100 Of course, I recognize all this to be wrong in that moment prior to that moment.

01:12:43.140 But I think it took that happening to me.

01:12:46.680 It took that negative and direct and personal being impacted in that way to ultimately take that initial leap of faith,

01:12:58.160 which I'm ashamed to say it.

01:13:00.000 Granted, I think it does give you a sense of credibility and it gives you a story

01:13:03.580 and people are more willing to listen if it's something that has impacted you.

01:13:07.500 But I'm ashamed to say it took me, it took that for me.

01:13:11.040 Had that not happened, truthfully, I'm a very self-aware person.

01:13:16.820 Again, all the while knowing it was wrong.

01:13:19.640 Had that interaction not happened, I imagine I, like everyone else,

01:13:25.060 would have just swept it under the rug and figured it was someone else's problem.

01:13:28.820 But it did happen to me.

01:13:30.520 And again, I say I'm ashamed to say it.

01:13:33.580 And really what it was, those feelings that I had,

01:13:37.240 the feelings of just conviction and guilt,

01:13:41.600 like I felt so guilty in that moment,

01:13:44.840 having even gotten in the pool that day,

01:13:47.700 having jumped off the block and swam,

01:13:49.520 I felt just as bad as the people who created and enforced the policies

01:13:55.060 because I was participating in the farce just as much as they were at that point.

01:13:59.160 And it just reached this point where it was an overwhelming sense of guilt.

01:14:02.940 So I think that was ultimately what led me to be there.

01:14:08.700 But I think since then, and partially on the front end, of course,

01:14:13.940 what has given me the stability and I think the security

01:14:18.300 to say what I've been saying is, of course, my faith.

01:14:23.280 It's just central to my life.

01:14:24.820 It's central to how I operate, to how I approach conversations,

01:14:27.500 to how I conduct myself on a daily basis,

01:14:31.780 whether it's this conversation or any conversation.

01:14:34.940 I always try to remember, number one, to live a Christ-like life.

01:14:39.940 And so I think knowing, which it took a while,

01:14:42.660 again, I think you have to,

01:14:45.100 you almost have to be tested in that way to have a testimony, if you will.

01:14:51.320 I think having the influx of negative comments or whatever it was

01:14:55.300 took a little bit of time,

01:14:58.560 not a long time, actually.

01:14:59.820 I would say probably a few weeks of reading these pretty harsh critiques of myself,

01:15:05.700 things I knew not to be true.

01:15:08.240 But I realized pretty early on,

01:15:10.920 I'm not fighting for anything of this world.

01:15:13.880 I'm fighting for the promise and the hope of eternal life.

01:15:18.520 Once I was able to frame it in my mind that way,

01:15:21.860 it's made it easy to withstand all of the negativity,

01:15:25.860 all of the pushback, all of the hatred that comes with it.

01:15:29.800 And to that, I will say,

01:15:31.740 the support in comparison to the hatred is tenfold, of course.

01:15:36.640 So keeping that perspective as well.

01:15:38.920 And I think my family,

01:15:40.520 I've got two fantastic parents who raised me to be a leader.

01:15:45.880 My dad has a pretty remarkable story of his own college athletic story.

01:15:52.740 He was also an SEC athlete.

01:15:54.660 He played football.

01:15:56.480 There was one game where there was a long pass thrown to my dad.

01:16:00.200 A player from Ole Miss tackled my dad.

01:16:04.200 Ultimately ended up severing his spinal cord and passing away from that hit.

01:16:10.180 And I saw the other player, of course,

01:16:12.720 his name was Chucky Mullins, the player for Ole Miss.

01:16:15.980 But I saw, obviously this happened before I was born,

01:16:19.660 but even since the impact that that has had on my dad and my family,

01:16:24.960 and just the devotion that I've seen from my dad following this.

01:16:28.520 He lived for several months prior to passing away,

01:16:31.980 ultimately succumbing to a blood clot, I believe,

01:16:34.560 paralyzed, of course, in the meantime, really horrific.

01:16:37.000 But in those months that Chucky was alive,

01:16:40.840 my dad and him became best friends.

01:16:43.300 Again, my dad overwhelmed with the guilt that you feel.

01:16:46.260 Knowing it's a situation that you were doing everything

01:16:51.020 you were supposed to be doing.

01:16:53.140 He was doing everything that he believed he was supposed to be doing.

01:16:56.300 Granted, this was before a lot of the targeting calls

01:16:59.300 and protocols and precautions they take now.

01:17:02.060 So, that guilt my dad still carries with him,

01:17:06.620 but even still how my dad leads his life,

01:17:09.820 visiting his grave three times every year,

01:17:12.480 one of those days being Christmas Day.

01:17:15.260 So, I've never had my dad home on Christmas

01:17:16.900 because he believes no one should be alone on Christmas morning.

01:17:20.580 I think all of that, that to say, the family that I have,

01:17:26.020 the home life that I have,

01:17:28.260 how my parents taught me to call out an injustice when I see it,

01:17:32.680 how they taught me to be a leader.

01:17:34.160 And I think a lot of that's to a credit to playing sports.

01:17:37.440 I'm the biggest advocate for every single person

01:17:40.140 playing sports at the highest level that you can,

01:17:44.140 that you can possibly reach.

01:17:46.080 Being team captain of my team taught me how to set goals

01:17:49.720 and work to achieve those goals.

01:17:51.040 It taught me the greater good of, you know,

01:17:53.840 doing something for larger than just yourself.

01:17:56.340 And that's very much how I see this fight, if you will,

01:17:59.900 that we're a part of now.

01:18:02.280 It's not a matter of me,

01:18:05.320 of any sort of my personal ambition.

01:18:09.040 I take that out of the equation entirely

01:18:10.960 when I do what I do, regardless of what it is.

01:18:15.340 I really do feel like these past few years

01:18:18.480 I've approached this pretty selfishly.

01:18:21.480 Wherever I need to be, whatever I need to do,

01:18:23.460 even if it's in the belly of the beast,

01:18:25.200 I'm there because I know it's the right thing.

01:18:27.800 So I think once you can frame it that way,

01:18:30.500 it makes it easy, really.

01:18:33.200 Right, right, right, right.

01:18:35.040 Okay, okay.

01:18:35.700 Okay, so look, let's close this out

01:18:38.800 by talking about what you think is going to happen

01:18:42.280 with you in the future.

01:18:44.300 And I'm kind of curious about

01:18:45.940 how far out in the future you're looking, practically.

01:18:48.860 I know you have a baby coming,

01:18:50.160 and so that's going to bring many changes into your life.

01:18:55.800 But I don't look out more than about a year

01:19:00.180 because I just can't see things

01:19:02.400 being predictable past that point.

01:19:04.240 And I'm curious about your time frame

01:19:06.340 and what you're planning,

01:19:09.460 how you're going to juggle and balance that with the baby

01:19:12.820 and what you're hoping to accomplish as you move forward.

01:19:16.040 And then I think when we move to the Daily Wire side,

01:19:18.340 I think we'll turn our attention

01:19:19.680 to your experience on college campuses

01:19:23.480 and with high schools.

01:19:24.540 I'd like to hear more about that.

01:19:25.820 So everybody watching and listening,

01:19:28.300 you could join us for this to continue

01:19:30.240 after we close out on the Daily Wire side.

01:19:33.220 So yeah, so Riley, what's next for you?

01:19:37.720 Where do you see this going?

01:19:38.940 You've had a lot of success, especially at the state level.

01:19:41.440 There's a lot more work to do.

01:19:43.800 What are your plans?

01:19:45.520 Certainly a lot more work to do.

01:19:49.040 You say a year.

01:19:50.480 I really approach this on a daily basis,

01:19:53.240 and I really mean that.

01:19:57.160 So I think being a mom, of course,

01:20:00.280 is the next big thing.

01:20:03.400 But I will say, again, knowing that it's a little girl,

01:20:08.960 it only reinforces the necessity and the urgency,

01:20:14.220 really the urgency, to fight this fight.

01:20:16.820 So there is no signs of me slowing down or stopping this.

01:20:22.880 Sorry to all the liberals out there

01:20:24.240 who desperately hope that's the case.

01:20:26.660 It's absolutely not.

01:20:27.980 Again, it really only reinforces the need

01:20:31.520 and just how vital this issue is.

01:20:35.400 So full steam ahead.

01:20:37.060 I think looking at this from the state policy level,

01:20:39.820 what the next thing is,

01:20:41.480 as I said, 28 states have done this.

01:20:44.000 As you could probably imagine,

01:20:46.200 all of the states where this was a guarantee,

01:20:48.680 your states like Tennessee, Texas, Florida,

01:20:51.460 they have already done this at this point.

01:20:53.940 So now it's targeting other states

01:20:55.640 that are a little more purple,

01:20:57.400 where this is not a guarantee,

01:20:59.260 where you have to get some Democrats to cross the line.

01:21:01.700 States like Minnesota, states like Pennsylvania.

01:21:04.400 So working in those legislative bodies

01:21:06.440 to get this over the line,

01:21:09.100 hopefully set the precedent for other purple states

01:21:12.780 and of course would love to see

01:21:15.300 some blue states follow through,

01:21:17.020 although I don't know how realistic that is

01:21:20.580 for the time being.

01:21:21.980 One other piece of legislation at the state level

01:21:23.920 that I feel very passionately about

01:21:25.540 that we've been working on across the board

01:21:28.580 is similarly to President Trump's executive order

01:21:33.440 that he signed on day one,

01:21:34.740 declaring there are only two sexes, male and female.

01:21:37.620 And then further going on,

01:21:38.980 I believe the important part for the state level

01:21:40.880 is defining words like man, woman, girl, boy,

01:21:45.980 mother, father, male, female, defining sex itself.

01:21:50.180 Again, words we never knew we would have to define,

01:21:53.200 but have ultimately become entirely conflated.

01:21:57.280 They use these words, sex and gender identity,

01:22:00.240 interchangeably,

01:22:01.140 although they mean different things entirely.

01:22:03.940 So there are now, as it stands,

01:22:06.600 16 states that have passed

01:22:09.240 what we have dubbed as the Women's Bill of Rights. 1.00

01:22:12.440 Some states call it something different,

01:22:14.340 but most states call it the Women's Bill of Rights.

01:22:17.020 Texas being the most recent,

01:22:18.480 Governor Abbott just signed that this past week.

01:22:21.440 So lots of work to do there.

01:22:24.460 Lots, I mean, states like Florida have not done this yet.

01:22:27.320 So you can imagine there would be some easy wins,

01:22:30.260 although I don't know if anything is necessarily easy.

01:22:33.580 No win is easy anymore.

01:22:36.060 So that's probably the next big push,

01:22:39.280 I would say, of this battle.

01:22:42.200 Because you have things like the protection

01:22:44.220 or fairness in women's sports bill. 1.00

01:22:47.380 Well, what longevity does that have

01:22:48.780 if we can't define the word woman in state statute? 0.99

01:22:51.980 And that's in total contrast

01:22:53.140 to what you see in states like Wisconsin,

01:22:55.420 where Governor Evers attempted to change the word woman

01:22:58.960 in a 1,000-page budget bill,

01:23:01.420 of course, very sneaky,

01:23:03.000 to inseminate, or actually it was the word mother,

01:23:05.820 to inseminated persons. 0.99

01:23:07.980 Like, that is just the most ridiculous, 0.99

01:23:10.460 dehumanizing thing I've ever heard in my entire life. 0.98

01:23:13.400 We've seen words like cervix haver

01:23:15.260 or uterus owner or menstruator 0.62

01:23:16.960 or bleeder or chest beater

01:23:18.460 or birthing person, or the list goes on.

01:23:20.340 Birthing person, yeah.

01:23:21.500 But people, common sense people,

01:23:25.540 know what these words mean.

01:23:27.320 So I believe it's time our laws do, too.

01:23:30.180 Yeah, it means that the speaker and writer hates women. 1.00

01:23:33.700 That's what it means. 0.70

01:23:35.220 They hate reality more so.

01:23:37.280 Well, yes, yes.

01:23:38.140 They hate objective truth.

01:23:39.220 God, women, and reality. 1.00

01:23:41.560 Maybe in that order.

01:23:43.140 Hard to say.

01:23:45.160 All right, well, what does that mean practically?

01:23:48.100 Like, you're going to give birth in two months.

01:23:52.820 You've got a busy schedule ahead of you.

01:23:54.660 What will that mean for you practically,

01:23:56.580 do you think, in terms of traveling over the next year?

01:23:59.260 Are you going to maintain the same pace?

01:24:04.100 That's the plan, actually.

01:24:06.180 I've already...

01:24:07.160 Well, babies are pretty portable, you know.

01:24:09.160 That's what I think, too.

01:24:10.420 They make these awesome baby carriers, 0.77

01:24:12.300 and of course, strollers are so compactable now.

01:24:15.080 So I'm already...

01:24:17.920 She's due in September.

01:24:20.640 So I already have things on the book, end of October.

01:24:23.480 So four or five weeks.

01:24:25.620 And I'm good to go.

01:24:26.680 I'm ready.

01:24:28.360 I know a lot of moms out there listening to this, 1.00

01:24:31.020 like, she has no idea what she's in for.

01:24:33.200 But truthfully, the way that my mindset is,

01:24:38.080 is I think this will be just the greatest blessing, of course.

01:24:42.020 And I don't think, granted, having the help of my husband,

01:24:48.120 I have all my family lives close by.

01:24:50.380 I just don't think this will be much of a hindrance on what I personally,

01:24:56.440 but more broadly, what we as a movement are able to do

01:25:01.360 surrounding this issue and beyond.

01:25:04.100 So full steam ahead.

01:25:05.920 That's how I view it.

01:25:07.860 Great, great.

01:25:08.940 Well, best of luck.

01:25:10.120 I hope that things go very well.

01:25:12.260 I'm sure you'll be in touch with Michaela

01:25:14.140 or maybe directly with me in the next two-month period.

01:25:17.860 I hope that, as I said, best wishes for that.

01:25:21.180 I think that your plans can be realized.

01:25:25.760 It takes some managerial juggling

01:25:28.560 to continue moving ahead at 150 miles an hour

01:25:32.900 when you have a baby.

01:25:34.540 But if you have people around who will help

01:25:36.840 and you can distribute the responsibility

01:25:38.680 so you take care of yourself,

01:25:40.720 then, well, you can have a baby and have a life,

01:25:44.760 as it turns out, and, in fact, a richer life.

01:25:47.760 So congratulations on that front.

01:25:50.560 So for everybody watching and listening,

01:25:53.000 we're going to turn to the Daily Wire side now.

01:25:55.520 I'm going to talk to Riley about her experiences

01:25:58.220 on university campuses and high schools

01:26:00.980 and what she sees happening there.

01:26:02.700 And so join us for that.

01:26:05.280 Riley, any last words for people watching and listening?

01:26:08.940 No, grateful for you.

01:26:10.340 I will say I have a podcast with Outkick.

01:26:13.360 It's called Gains for Girls.

01:26:15.180 So doing great stuff over there as well.

01:26:18.680 Right, right.

01:26:19.460 How's the podcast going?

01:26:21.140 It's fantastic talking to, I mean,

01:26:25.440 some just incredible minds.

01:26:27.520 This week we had on Senator Hawley,

01:26:29.900 Senator Daines from Montana,

01:26:31.580 talking to people who have been impacted,

01:26:34.580 people who maybe don't have as much as a name out there,

01:26:37.500 but real people.

01:26:38.700 Again, that's what I value.

01:26:39.760 That's what I appreciate.

01:26:40.580 That's what most everyday Americans appreciate,

01:26:43.920 is hearing from real people.

01:26:46.440 So it's going great, doing awesome stuff.

01:26:50.800 All right.

01:26:51.720 Well, great talking to you, Riley,

01:26:53.240 and congratulations on all your success.

01:26:55.980 On the familial side, on the marital side,

01:26:58.820 and on the political side,

01:27:00.880 the tides have turned.

01:27:03.920 And that's a huge victory.

01:27:06.960 And it's making waves that will have an effect

01:27:12.660 throughout the Western and the broader world.

01:27:16.260 And so thank God for that,

01:27:17.800 because maybe we're a little less insane

01:27:20.260 than we were five years ago.

01:27:22.300 And that's in some not so small part due to you.

01:27:27.900 Well, thank you.

01:27:28.880 And you, I appreciate it.

01:27:30.020 Yeah.

01:27:31.040 Yeah.

01:27:31.680 All right.

01:27:32.260 So everybody, you can join us on the Daily Wire side.

01:27:35.200 I'm going to continue to talk to Riley

01:27:36.920 about her experiences battling it out

01:27:40.580 on the university campuses and high schools.

01:27:43.900 Join us.

01:27:44.900 And thanks very much for your time and attention.

01:27:46.500 Thank you.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - June 26, 2025

557. Balancing Pregnancy, Motherhood and Work ｜ Riley Gaines

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