The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 562. What Do We Actually Know About Autism？

00:00:00.000 One of the things we might want to do is lay out the cardinal features of autism.

00:00:04.660 How would you characterize autism?

00:00:07.160 Autism isn't just a single thing.

00:00:10.740 There are multiple dimensions to autism, multiple factors.

00:00:14.240 The fact that it's a multidimensional disorder risks obscuring its central features.

00:00:19.700 If we just focus on the things that they have challenges with, it's like a deficit model.

00:00:24.340 If we recognize that brains develop differently, and that some brains focus more on systems than they do on people,

00:00:32.360 there's growing evidence that autistic people are better than non-autistic people at understanding systems,

00:00:39.400 at pattern recognition, which is obviously a great asset in a lot of different environments.

00:00:54.340 Hello, everybody.

00:01:00.640 My guest today, Professor Simon Baron-Cohen,

00:01:04.240 is a world-renowned clinical psychologist and director of the Autism Research Center at Cambridge.

00:01:10.000 He's done groundbreaking work on autism, empathy, systemizing, and the extreme male brain.

00:01:18.260 In doing so, he's reshaped our understanding of neurodiversity.

00:01:21.480 He's the author of numerous books, including his latest, The Pattern Seekers,

00:01:27.380 How Autism Drives Human Invention.

00:01:31.100 He spoke to us at length today about tool use, about theory of mind,

00:01:35.960 and most controversially, perhaps, the differences in male and female approaches to the world

00:01:41.900 and male and female neurological structure.

00:01:45.420 Join us for that.

00:01:46.220 Well, Dr. Baron-Cohen, I have been looking forward to talking to you for a long time.

00:01:52.720 I've followed your research, I don't know, for how long?

00:01:58.340 15 years, 20 years?

00:02:00.100 A long time.

00:02:01.360 And there's a lot of things that we, there's a lot of interest that we share.

00:02:05.860 So I thought what I'd do to begin with is outline your main domains of interest.

00:02:11.720 And you can correct me and make sure that I've got that formulated properly,

00:02:15.340 because I would like to walk through them, you know, with, in some relatively systematic and empathic manner.

00:02:22.540 So, so let, tell me what you think of this breakdown.

00:02:26.220 You're very interested in how people adopt the mindset of other people, how we understand other people.

00:02:34.620 And I really want to talk to you about that.

00:02:36.780 So I want to throw some ideas at you and see how your vision of mutual understanding and emotional alignment differs and maybe is similar.

00:02:46.580 You're very interested in gender differences.

00:02:48.480 Let's call them sex differences, just to be politically incorrect.

00:02:53.960 That, that shades off into your concern with systematizing versus empathizing, which is a, I suppose, a dimensional analysis of, of interest, although it shades into temperament.

00:03:07.940 You're quite curious about empathy and evil, and you're very interested in pattern seeking.

00:03:14.760 And so, are there, are there other major domains that might be worth delving into, or does that give us a reasonable rubric?

00:03:24.880 That's a great framework.

00:03:27.420 And I just want to start by saying, I'm honored to be in conversation with you.

00:03:32.340 I've been looking forward to talking to you for a long time, too.

00:03:36.260 And actually, this is going to sound funny, but I was sitting right at the back when you spoke at the O2 Center in London.

00:03:44.760 And that was probably one of your largest gigs.

00:03:48.080 And I was way at the back row, so you were quite small on stage, but it was, it was fun listening to you.

00:03:54.900 And I'm looking forward to our conversation.

00:03:57.240 In terms of the topics, I guess there's one other thing to mention, which is that I'm the director of the Autism Research Center in Cambridge.

00:04:07.140 And on, you know, the long list of topics that you mapped out for us, I guess we'll probably touch on the field of autism and autistic people.

00:04:19.800 Yeah, yeah, I guess I would have segued into that through systematizing and empathizing.

00:04:25.580 But it is good to highlight it as a major, obviously, it's good to highlight it as a major concern, since it is a major research area of yours.

00:04:33.180 Okay, well, that's good.

00:04:34.840 Maybe we'll start with understanding others.

00:04:38.620 And so let me, I'm going to ask a relatively complicated question.

00:04:42.960 And then I'd like you to indicate your agreements and disagreements, if you would.

00:04:48.680 So I was very influenced in my understanding of social perception by J.J. Gibson and his theory of affordances, and also by Jeffrey Gray and his cyber, essentially cybernetic neuroscience theory.

00:05:03.920 And so this is how I'm understanding it at the moment, and it's relevant to an understanding of stories and also an understanding of mind, I think, is that we shape our perceptions around a goal, a destination, let's say.

00:05:20.480 Our perceptions are guides to navigation.

00:05:23.120 And when we occupy the conceptual space of someone else, we adopt their goal, that syncs our perceptions, and it also syncs our emotions, because we experience emotions in relationship to a goal.

00:05:41.480 And I was also influenced in that notion by Piaget, you know, the developmental psychologist who was interested in how children establish shared frames of reference in games.

00:05:52.040 So, anyways, I'm curious, start with that, if you would.

00:05:58.200 It's interesting to hear your influences, because mine are a little bit different.

00:06:04.220 So for me, the major influence in how I think about other people's minds and the whole question of how do we imagine what someone else is thinking and what they might be feeling, the influence came from the philosopher Daniel Dennett.

00:06:22.920 And I don't know if you know his work, but he published a book.

00:06:25.520 Yes, I interviewed Dennett.

00:06:27.160 Okay.

00:06:27.700 And I know his work, yeah.

00:06:28.840 Yeah.

00:06:29.420 So he published a really, I think, really important book called The Intentional Stance, probably in the late 70s or early 80s.

00:06:40.280 And the idea of the intentional stance is that when we look around at the world, like the world of objects, we don't particularly attribute mental states.

00:06:51.820 But when we look at people, what humans do, and some people would say uniquely, is that we take this intentional stance.

00:07:00.980 That's to say, we try to imagine what's going through their mind.

00:07:06.860 And, you know, mental states, you know, he argued, cover not just emotions and goals.

00:07:15.140 You picked out those two.

00:07:16.340 But importantly, also epistemic states, so beliefs, what people know.

00:07:23.000 So in every conversation, in every interaction, what most people are doing is that they're monitoring the other person's state of mind.

00:07:33.620 What does the other person know, what do they think, what do they want, what are they feeling?

00:07:39.500 And in my terminology, more recently, I call that cognitive empathy.

00:07:47.820 But Dennett called it the intentional stance, taking the intentional stance.

00:07:52.360 So the word intentional is meant to cover the whole range of mental states that another person might have.

00:07:58.960 And, you know, he gives this wonderful example in his book of how important this is, that every time we venture out on the highway, we are making assumptions about other people's mental states.

00:08:15.100 For example, that other people want to stay alive, so they're going to stay in their lane and not swerve into our lane.

00:08:21.800 And that other people can see us and we can see that they know that we can see them.

00:08:26.760 So many different kinds of unconscious sort of processing of what other people are thinking, what they believe, what they know, what they want.

00:08:36.640 And that's happening in every conversation, or at least it should be.

00:08:40.720 So the intentional stance, I think that that idea was influenced by Husserl and Heidegger.

00:08:48.340 Maybe Heidegger more particularly, because he insisted that our fundamental attitude towards the world was one of care.

00:08:59.040 And that's a good way, I think, of uniting perception with emotion.

00:09:04.200 I mean, if we perceive our destinations, I guess you're doing that on the highway with other people too.

00:09:12.580 One of the destinations would be to arrive alive, for example.

00:09:16.520 So you're inhabiting a shared structure of value, and that highlights certain perceptions and foregrounds certain perceptions and hides others.

00:09:25.100 Okay, so...

00:09:25.920 So I think you've just introduced an extra element, which is, do we care about another person?

00:09:32.340 And I would say that that's an extra element, because you could adopt the intentional stance.

00:09:38.500 You could think about other people's thoughts without really caring about them.

00:09:43.840 And, you know, if you think about a psychopath, or somebody with antisocial personality disorder,

00:09:50.440 they can model what someone else is thinking, but they may not care about the person's well-being.

00:09:57.980 They may not care about their feelings.

00:10:00.200 So, you know, a psychopath, for example, can, you know, they can deceive you,

00:10:06.660 they can manipulate you to believe that something's true when it's not.

00:10:09.860 And they turn up at your front door, and they pretend that they are the gas man coming to read the gas meter.

00:10:17.560 And then once they're in your house, they might mug you.

00:10:20.780 So they clearly don't care, but most people don't operate with the lack of care.

00:10:26.300 So that's why I kind of think there's a difference between the simple act of,

00:10:32.960 can you imagine what someone's thinking, and do you care about another person's feelings,

00:10:39.020 and whether they're going to suffer or not?

00:10:41.700 Right. Well, is it fair to say that, is it fair to say perhaps that that's a matter of value prioritization?

00:10:50.160 I mean, I've increasingly been conceptualizing antisocial behavior, even psychopathy, as a form of delayed immaturity.

00:11:00.760 I mean, we know that two-year-olds are relatively egocentric,

00:11:03.860 and we also know that there's a subset of two-year-olds who are willing to use aggression to pursue their ends.

00:11:11.280 It's about 5% of boys seem to be like that temperamentally.

00:11:15.100 Most of them are socialized by the time they're four, by the way,

00:11:18.720 but the ones that aren't tend to be life-term persistent offenders.

00:11:22.920 So imagine that the initial stages of maturity with regard to intention are narrowly self-focused, right?

00:11:35.680 So they might be hypothalamic even.

00:11:38.340 You know, they're basic drive-focused, and they don't take anyone else into account.

00:11:44.800 They don't take reciprocal interactions into account.

00:11:48.080 And then as you mature, it seems to me that you prioritize the relationship over immediate gratification.

00:11:56.480 Because you learn, well, you learn that's the pathway to friendship, for example, because friendship is...

00:12:01.520 Go ahead.

00:12:02.220 So I would take a slightly different view.

00:12:06.320 I mean, people talk about the terrible twos, you know.

00:12:10.040 And when my kids were two years old, I didn't find them terrible, actually.

00:12:14.320 I mean, sometimes they have their own wishes, and they get upset if they're frustrated that they can't have what they want.

00:12:22.020 But I don't think most two-year-olds are just driven by self-interest and purely in the pursuit of their own goal.

00:12:29.480 Some two-year-olds, maybe.

00:12:32.020 But, you know, there are these studies, you know, you brought in Piaget,

00:12:36.880 but also, you know, you're really referencing the field of developmental psychology.

00:12:43.360 But there are these tests that I'm sure you're aware of where the mother might be playing with a toy hammer

00:12:50.820 and she acts as if she's hit her thumb with the hammer and shows some pain.

00:12:57.740 And even two-year-olds will look up at the mother's face when she is in pain.

00:13:02.600 They recognize that.

00:13:03.660 And they may come over and console her or give her a kiss or give her a hug or a cuddle, you know, because she's acting as if she's in distress.

00:13:15.500 So I don't see, I don't think even the typical two-year-old is oblivious to another person's feelings.

00:13:23.160 And nor are they kind of like detached, I don't know, psychopaths where they just don't care that somebody else is in pain.

00:13:32.400 They actually have the natural reaction of wanting to alleviate another person's suffering.

00:13:38.080 And, of course, there may be differences in maturation.

00:13:41.180 I think that's what you're saying.

00:13:42.220 We might get on to the controversial area of gender differences and, you know, whether girls on average might be developing faster

00:13:52.040 in terms of being able to recognize other people's feelings and respond with an appropriate emotion.

00:13:59.360 The way I started talking about this earlier was to talk about cognitive empathy,

00:14:04.680 which in my framework is the recognition element, recognizing what someone is thinking or feeling.

00:14:13.040 But the flip side of the coin, the other fraction of empathy, I call affective empathy.

00:14:20.760 And that's having an appropriate emotion, an appropriate emotional response to somebody else's state of mind.

00:14:28.860 And, of course, for most people, most interactions, you know, combine the two.

00:14:35.620 The cognitive element, you know, I might be reading your face, I might be reading your body language,

00:14:41.080 or I might be inferring what you're thinking or feeling from the context, what I know about you.

00:14:47.200 But the affective part should be kind of kicking in very, very quickly.

00:14:51.740 Because if I see that you're bored or if I see that you're a little bit upset or angry,

00:14:58.160 I should be responding in real time with an appropriate emotion.

00:15:04.320 So I wonder if there's a way of bridging the gap between the approaches that we took.

00:15:12.000 I mean, it seems to me likely that empathy, broadly speaking, is sufficiently crucial to social creatures like us

00:15:20.540 that it might be represented at multiple levels of neurological function.

00:15:26.200 And so those affective responses, emotional responses that you described as characteristic of two-year-olds,

00:15:32.820 which are obviously there, and which vary with the child's temperament to some degree,

00:15:39.760 I wonder if those are a more primordial and immediate form of social cognition contrasted with,

00:15:48.400 and maybe this is related to your notion of cognitive empathy,

00:15:51.700 with the understanding of long-term reciprocity that develops when children learn to play,

00:15:59.600 play what?

00:16:01.280 Complex multiplayer games and extend them across time, right?

00:16:06.060 So tell me again, that affective empathy, is that more instinctual, would you say?

00:16:13.460 Yeah, I mean, I guess it begs the question, what do we mean by an instinct?

00:16:19.060 But I'm sure it's very rapid.

00:16:22.560 But, you know, what I liked about something you said earlier was about the developmental kind of timetable

00:16:29.600 or the unfolding of these things in early childhood.

00:16:33.240 Because I used to work in this field, and the field is broadly called theory of mind.

00:16:38.740 When does a child develop a theory of mind?

00:16:42.500 Or when is a child able to appreciate what someone else knows and believes and thinks?

00:16:48.900 And the consensus back then, and I think the literature still supports this,

00:16:53.900 is that it's not till about the age of three or four

00:16:57.680 that kids can appreciate that somebody else may have a false belief.

00:17:03.320 You know, that Jordan thinks it's Tuesday, but actually it's Wednesday.

00:17:08.540 You know, so it takes till the age of about three or four

00:17:12.400 before kids can know what is true

00:17:16.300 and understand that somebody else might hold a false belief about the world.

00:17:20.720 And then it takes a little bit longer, not till the age of five or six,

00:17:25.120 before they can do what's called second order false belief.

00:17:28.980 You know, that I think that you believe that somebody else believes something false.

00:17:34.380 That's a kind of, so it's kind of like at a meta level.

00:17:37.460 And these, you know, I can easily see that these are kind of orders of magnitude of complexity

00:17:42.780 that kids have to master.

00:17:45.380 And if we bring this back to autistic kids,

00:17:49.000 there's quite a lot of evidence that they show delays

00:17:52.180 in mastering some of these kind of social cognitive

00:17:57.260 or levels of theory of mind reasoning.

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00:18:59.840 Let's diverge slightly into the realm of autism briefly.

00:19:05.980 I want to ask you some specific questions there.

00:19:08.980 So, I know that the classification of autistic spectrum disorders

00:19:17.180 has widened tremendously since the original formulation of the concept.

00:19:23.040 And I suppose that segues or shades into your work

00:19:27.960 on systematizing and empathizing,

00:19:29.900 which is maybe even a broader conceptual framework.

00:19:32.400 It seems to me, I mean, it may be depends on the severity of autism,

00:19:38.500 but it seems to me that the notion that relatively severely

00:19:42.940 or even moderately autistic people are impaired in their theory of mind

00:19:48.200 is appropriate.

00:19:49.920 But the initial symptoms of severe autism seem to me to be so,

00:19:56.040 so neurologically primary that they point to something more fundamental

00:20:02.660 that maybe that theory of mind deficits are a secondary consequence

00:20:07.100 because they don't, severely autistic children,

00:20:12.300 they're often very delayed in their language development.

00:20:16.940 And that's not true of,

00:20:19.000 it's not particularly true of people with Down syndrome

00:20:22.680 who are also very cognitively impaired.

00:20:25.160 They still develop language quite fluidly, let's say.

00:20:30.880 But also, this is the strangest thing, I think,

00:20:33.680 and you can tell me what you think about this,

00:20:35.660 is that, well, autistic children often don't like to be touched.

00:20:40.680 And that's really something because mammals like to be touched.

00:20:45.320 And so, whatever's gone wrong is so primordial

00:20:48.500 that it's part of a system that we share with all mammals.

00:20:52.840 So, tell me how you reconcile that with the theory of mind hypotheses.

00:20:58.320 So, I guess the theory of mind hypothesis,

00:21:02.600 I would criticize it as being too simplistic

00:21:06.540 in the sense that autism isn't just a single thing.

00:21:13.820 There are multiple dimensions to autism, multiple factors.

00:21:19.740 And theory of mind may be just one of those.

00:21:23.020 But if you just focus on that,

00:21:25.040 you may be missing many other aspects to autism.

00:21:28.960 I'm just going to pick you up on a couple of things.

00:21:32.400 One is the word severe.

00:21:35.140 You talked about severe autism.

00:21:37.100 And, you know, I wonder how we're going to define that.

00:21:41.300 Because I think the way you were starting to define it

00:21:45.800 is if a child's not talking.

00:21:48.420 So, if a child is not only autistic,

00:21:50.580 but also has language delay,

00:21:52.660 that makes it more severe.

00:21:55.040 And I think you were also hinting that

00:21:57.460 if a child not only is autistic,

00:22:00.320 but also has a learning disability,

00:22:02.900 or in the US it's called an intellectual disability,

00:22:05.880 so their IQ is below the average range,

00:22:09.840 again, that would make it more severe.

00:22:12.700 And I think what we've come to understand

00:22:15.080 is that there are many different types of autism.

00:22:19.700 Although we've only got a single word,

00:22:22.240 in the US it's called autism spectrum disorder, ASD.

00:22:26.080 I personally don't like that terminology

00:22:28.320 because the word disorder is quite stigmatizing.

00:22:33.100 But nevertheless, so I just use the word autism.

00:22:35.880 As a kind of umbrella concept.

00:22:38.520 But you can have autism with language delay,

00:22:41.360 or without language delay,

00:22:43.380 with intellectual disability,

00:22:45.680 or without,

00:22:47.160 with ADHD,

00:22:48.640 or without,

00:22:49.220 so many different kind of combinations,

00:22:52.660 co-occurring conditions.

00:22:54.240 But whether you'd say that one is more severe than another,

00:22:58.680 it's not clear to me.

00:23:00.300 You could have somebody,

00:23:02.140 and I'll give you an example of an autistic man

00:23:06.400 who didn't speak until he was 11,

00:23:10.880 didn't read or write until he was 18,

00:23:13.860 but he's now a professor in my university.

00:23:19.020 So at what point in his development

00:23:21.580 would you say his autism was either severe

00:23:25.360 or his autism as a lifelong condition was severe?

00:23:31.080 There's a lot of change,

00:23:32.720 and even just taking that one indicator of language delay

00:23:38.840 wouldn't have told us what his intellectual level was.

00:23:43.480 And that's something that I've certainly learned,

00:23:46.220 that you can have autistic people

00:23:48.020 who have no expressive language,

00:23:51.000 no speech.

00:23:52.380 Maybe they need to communicate through devices,

00:23:54.860 but cognitively or intellectually,

00:23:57.360 they may be very smart.

00:23:59.160 So it's very easy to kind of underestimate somebody

00:24:02.840 just because they can't speak.

00:24:05.100 Well, we can use that differentiation

00:24:08.620 as a springboard

00:24:11.140 to getting to the heart of two matters, I would say.

00:24:14.460 So what I would,

00:24:16.300 in an attempt to answer the question

00:24:18.320 with regard to severity,

00:24:19.620 one of the things we might want to do

00:24:21.020 is lay out the cardinal features of autism.

00:24:24.220 Because as a multidimensional disorder,

00:24:26.800 I mean, the fact that it's a multidimensional disorder

00:24:30.140 risks obscuring its central features.

00:24:33.860 And I tried to highlight language delay

00:24:36.700 and more importantly,

00:24:38.480 antipathy towards touch,

00:24:40.980 which I think is the most,

00:24:43.080 I mean, that's just so incomprehensible,

00:24:45.400 that particular.

00:24:46.400 So how would you characterize autism at its core?

00:24:51.100 And also, maybe we can use that

00:24:53.560 to move into a discussion

00:24:55.920 of systematizing versus empathizing

00:24:58.320 if those two things are intelligibly related.

00:25:02.180 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:25:03.020 So I'll come on to the definition

00:25:06.760 of the core characteristics of autism

00:25:09.220 in just one second.

00:25:11.240 But I realize I didn't pick up

00:25:13.240 on your quite interesting observation

00:25:14.900 that some autistic people

00:25:17.020 don't like to be touched.

00:25:18.680 And again, I'm just being careful

00:25:21.540 to not generalize it

00:25:22.740 because it may not be true

00:25:24.380 for all autistic people.

00:25:26.700 But the way I interpret that,

00:25:29.500 and you're absolutely right

00:25:30.560 that most humans enjoy intimate touch.

00:25:35.160 You know, it calms them down.

00:25:37.420 It makes them feel emotionally closer

00:25:39.620 to the other person

00:25:40.520 if it's in the context, for example,

00:25:42.600 of a loving relationship,

00:25:44.500 like between a parent and a child.

00:25:46.320 And so why would an autistic child

00:25:49.400 or some autistic kids

00:25:50.740 not like to be touched?

00:25:52.920 And for me,

00:25:54.440 that may come down to

00:25:57.320 not understanding

00:25:58.820 the other person's state of mind.

00:26:01.340 What does the other person want

00:26:02.920 when they touch you?

00:26:04.260 It may come down to

00:26:05.720 the unpredictability of it.

00:26:09.140 If somebody doesn't announce

00:26:11.220 that they're going to touch you

00:26:12.500 and they just touch you

00:26:13.420 out of the blue,

00:26:14.700 we know that autistic people

00:26:16.380 don't, in general,

00:26:18.280 don't like things

00:26:19.340 that are unpredictable.

00:26:20.940 And it's going to kind of segue

00:26:22.380 into this whole concept

00:26:23.760 of systemizing.

00:26:25.380 Because if you can systemize

00:26:27.280 the world,

00:26:28.800 you can predict it.

00:26:30.060 And autistic people,

00:26:31.400 so this kind of brings us

00:26:32.580 into maybe some of the areas

00:26:34.260 of how you define autism,

00:26:35.700 that autistic people

00:26:37.680 have a hard time

00:26:39.520 with unexpected change.

00:26:42.800 If things are predictable,

00:26:45.080 they do fine.

00:26:46.540 And, you know,

00:26:47.160 in the world of music,

00:26:49.160 where you can play

00:26:50.060 the same song

00:26:50.840 over and over again,

00:26:52.400 or watching your favorite video,

00:26:54.820 and you can watch

00:26:55.920 the same episode

00:26:56.780 over and over again,

00:26:58.040 the world is beautifully predictable.

00:27:00.020 And some autistic kids

00:27:01.820 really gravitate

00:27:02.820 towards domains

00:27:04.280 which are predictable,

00:27:07.380 where there's the opportunity

00:27:08.600 for repetition,

00:27:10.080 so that there's nothing

00:27:11.080 that catches them out.

00:27:13.520 And clinically,

00:27:14.900 like you,

00:27:15.660 I'm a clinical psychologist.

00:27:17.960 You know,

00:27:18.160 what I see

00:27:19.200 and what I hear

00:27:20.000 autistic people tell me

00:27:22.100 is that when

00:27:23.200 unexpected things happen,

00:27:25.060 they get very stressed.

00:27:27.040 And, you know,

00:27:28.040 and that could be

00:27:28.740 just going into the

00:27:30.020 classroom at school,

00:27:32.120 but where instead of

00:27:33.300 being able to sit

00:27:34.020 in your favorite chair

00:27:35.260 or the chair

00:27:36.340 you've always sat in,

00:27:38.540 somebody else is sitting there

00:27:39.840 and you're expected

00:27:40.500 to sit somewhere new.

00:27:43.840 Or maybe there's even

00:27:45.280 like a change

00:27:46.060 in the wallpaper.

00:27:47.640 It could be

00:27:48.060 a small change,

00:27:49.660 you know,

00:27:50.000 it could be

00:27:50.660 that your mum

00:27:51.880 has given you

00:27:52.720 a different T-shirt to wear

00:27:54.300 and the texture

00:27:55.420 of that T-shirt

00:27:56.520 is different

00:27:57.540 to your favorite T-shirt.

00:27:59.040 So it might be

00:27:59.560 at a very sensory level,

00:28:01.140 but it's a change.

00:28:02.440 And so dealing

00:28:03.500 with unexpected change,

00:28:05.820 you know,

00:28:06.680 seems to be

00:28:07.320 a cause of challenge

00:28:09.480 for many autistic people.

00:28:11.060 But now,

00:28:11.820 if we just go back

00:28:12.540 to your main question,

00:28:14.040 how do I define autism?

00:28:16.320 I don't call it a disorder.

00:28:18.380 I've already mentioned that.

00:28:20.440 I see autism

00:28:21.300 as a disability.

00:28:23.360 That's really important

00:28:24.400 to acknowledge.

00:28:25.420 And the disability

00:28:26.660 is in social relationships

00:28:28.440 and communication

00:28:29.680 and also being able

00:28:31.700 to cope

00:28:32.320 with unexpected change.

00:28:34.400 But I also see autism

00:28:36.000 as a difference.

00:28:38.020 And that word

00:28:39.600 really comes from

00:28:40.640 the relatively recent

00:28:42.380 framework

00:28:42.920 of neurodiversity.

00:28:45.560 The autistic people,

00:28:47.360 right from birth

00:28:48.260 and actually before birth,

00:28:50.260 their brains

00:28:51.000 are developing differently,

00:28:52.900 not necessarily disordered,

00:28:54.880 simply different

00:28:56.120 so that when they emerge

00:28:58.500 into the world,

00:28:59.460 they may not be looking,

00:29:01.060 for example,

00:29:01.600 at faces

00:29:02.300 the way a non-autistic

00:29:04.820 child would be doing so

00:29:06.400 because faces move

00:29:07.680 unpredictably,

00:29:09.620 especially if you can't

00:29:11.720 imagine what's behind

00:29:13.420 the movement

00:29:14.920 of someone else's face

00:29:16.440 or somebody else's eye.

00:29:17.880 if I suddenly look

00:29:19.780 to my left,

00:29:21.080 you can make sense

00:29:22.060 of that

00:29:22.360 because you may be thinking

00:29:23.460 Simon has seen something

00:29:25.240 that he's interested in,

00:29:27.260 but you're already

00:29:28.000 attributing

00:29:28.740 a perceptual state,

00:29:30.740 he's seen something,

00:29:32.560 and, you know,

00:29:34.060 an epistemic state,

00:29:35.280 he's interested in something,

00:29:37.240 maybe a volitional state,

00:29:38.580 he's seen something

00:29:39.260 that he wants.

00:29:40.700 Young kids can make

00:29:41.780 all of these attributions

00:29:43.080 so that faces

00:29:43.980 and facial expressions

00:29:45.300 and eye movements

00:29:46.120 are not confusing.

00:29:49.080 They're actually,

00:29:49.760 they're very easy

00:29:50.500 to interpret.

00:29:51.780 Autistic kids

00:29:52.420 may be a bit delayed

00:29:53.400 in reading

00:29:54.100 another person's

00:29:55.360 body language

00:29:56.080 and facial expression

00:29:57.220 and tone of voice

00:29:58.740 because they may have

00:30:00.060 trouble with

00:30:00.780 cognitive empathy

00:30:02.740 or theory of mind.

00:30:03.920 So, are you thinking

00:30:05.940 that,

00:30:06.760 and I'm thinking,

00:30:07.620 I interviewed Temple Grandin

00:30:09.060 and so I'm going to

00:30:10.100 talk about some of the things

00:30:11.440 she said here

00:30:12.200 in a moment,

00:30:12.720 but are you

00:30:13.940 hypothesizing perhaps

00:30:15.960 as a unifying rubric

00:30:17.980 that

00:30:18.460 the autistic

00:30:20.740 condition

00:30:22.260 is characterized

00:30:23.080 by a relative inability

00:30:24.760 to infer

00:30:26.960 a uniting,

00:30:29.020 it's like a uniting narrative

00:30:30.480 or a uniting concept

00:30:31.600 because what you implied

00:30:33.440 was that

00:30:34.040 if I'm watching

00:30:35.440 your face

00:30:36.380 which is changing

00:30:37.340 unlike the background

00:30:39.720 let's say

00:30:40.420 which is very stable

00:30:41.580 that the reason

00:30:43.120 that doesn't

00:30:44.440 trigger

00:30:45.160 anomaly detection

00:30:47.180 anxiety in me

00:30:48.360 is because

00:30:48.960 I

00:30:50.080 understand

00:30:51.800 the thread

00:30:52.860 of our conversation

00:30:54.060 and that thread

00:30:55.700 is a unifying

00:30:56.760 reference point

00:30:57.840 and I can

00:30:59.080 assume that

00:30:59.980 all the manifestations

00:31:01.040 of your differences

00:31:02.560 are a variation

00:31:04.960 of that single thing

00:31:06.220 so Temple Grandin

00:31:07.700 told me

00:31:08.180 that she can't

00:31:09.440 or she had

00:31:10.000 real difficulty

00:31:10.960 abstracting

00:31:12.140 in a very

00:31:12.880 particular way

00:31:14.120 so she said

00:31:14.920 for example

00:31:15.480 and you see this

00:31:16.940 with some

00:31:17.980 autistic drawings

00:31:19.260 she doesn't

00:31:20.780 she can't bring

00:31:21.900 to mind

00:31:22.560 a generic church

00:31:24.300 you know how

00:31:25.040 children draw

00:31:25.840 a house

00:31:26.260 with a triangle

00:31:27.240 for the roof

00:31:28.460 and a square

00:31:29.160 for the house

00:31:30.660 and a door

00:31:31.320 and two windows

00:31:32.260 that no house

00:31:33.480 looks like that

00:31:34.400 but all houses

00:31:36.000 are like that

00:31:36.900 right

00:31:37.120 it's more like

00:31:37.700 a hieroglyphic

00:31:38.680 or an abstraction

00:31:40.060 same with those

00:31:40.960 stick figures

00:31:41.720 right

00:31:42.100 they're kind of

00:31:43.280 quasi linguistic

00:31:44.380 abstractions

00:31:45.400 and Grandin said

00:31:46.880 when she thinks

00:31:47.760 of any

00:31:48.580 phenomenon

00:31:50.320 she doesn't think

00:31:51.260 of a generalization

00:31:52.340 she thinks of

00:31:53.140 a concrete exemplar

00:31:55.280 and can't

00:31:56.560 and can't

00:31:57.940 abstract upward

00:31:58.880 I wonder if

00:31:59.440 that's the same

00:32:00.280 issue as

00:32:01.520 this lack

00:32:02.660 of theory

00:32:03.120 of mind

00:32:03.760 so first of all

00:32:05.580 again sorry to

00:32:06.580 pick you up

00:32:07.460 on that word

00:32:07.920 lack

00:32:08.360 but it's a kind

00:32:09.620 of

00:32:10.320 it's relative

00:32:12.200 degrees

00:32:13.000 of

00:32:13.500 of disability

00:32:14.800 you know

00:32:16.220 a lack

00:32:17.120 of theory

00:32:17.580 of mind

00:32:18.040 is

00:32:18.460 the extreme

00:32:19.860 point

00:32:20.380 and I wrote

00:32:21.720 a book

00:32:22.020 back in 1995

00:32:23.320 called

00:32:24.280 Mind Blindness

00:32:25.520 which kind

00:32:27.080 of conveys

00:32:27.920 this idea

00:32:28.500 that some

00:32:29.520 people might

00:32:30.000 be totally

00:32:30.680 blind

00:32:31.140 to someone

00:32:32.260 else's

00:32:32.640 state of

00:32:33.100 mind

00:32:33.460 but that

00:32:34.300 would be

00:32:34.560 the extreme

00:32:35.160 case

00:32:35.660 for many

00:32:37.360 people

00:32:38.240 and this

00:32:38.680 is a

00:32:38.980 spectrum

00:32:39.300 of individual

00:32:39.960 differences

00:32:40.500 but for

00:32:41.780 many autistic

00:32:42.460 people

00:32:42.920 it may not

00:32:43.740 be a

00:32:44.860 complete lack

00:32:45.660 of theory

00:32:46.700 of mind

00:32:46.980 it might

00:32:47.280 just take

00:32:47.820 them longer

00:32:48.360 to infer

00:32:49.180 what someone

00:32:50.080 is thinking

00:32:50.580 or feeling

00:32:51.160 and by the

00:32:52.040 way you

00:32:52.420 use the

00:32:53.060 word narrative

00:32:53.760 of the

00:32:54.820 narrative

00:32:55.160 of our

00:32:55.560 conversation

00:32:56.260 that assumes

00:32:57.800 you've got

00:32:58.380 linguistic

00:32:59.200 information

00:32:59.840 to go

00:33:00.360 on

00:33:00.620 but actually

00:33:01.820 for a

00:33:02.380 non-autistic

00:33:02.900 person

00:33:03.320 you don't

00:33:03.680 necessarily

00:33:04.140 need

00:33:04.560 language

00:33:05.180 you know

00:33:06.020 you and I

00:33:06.640 could have

00:33:07.100 a playful

00:33:08.380 interaction

00:33:09.340 without words

00:33:10.280 and you know

00:33:11.920 parents do this

00:33:13.140 with their

00:33:13.600 infants

00:33:14.080 long before

00:33:14.840 the infant

00:33:15.500 has language

00:33:16.340 or if you're

00:33:17.600 watching a

00:33:18.140 mime artist

00:33:18.920 like Marcel

00:33:20.300 Marceau

00:33:20.920 you know

00:33:21.420 you know

00:33:22.640 you could

00:33:23.060 you can infer

00:33:24.160 what the

00:33:24.680 mime artist

00:33:26.040 is thinking

00:33:26.720 or what

00:33:27.100 they're trying

00:33:27.540 to communicate

00:33:28.180 just through

00:33:29.180 facial expression

00:33:30.160 through eye

00:33:31.520 movement

00:33:31.880 through gesture

00:33:32.700 so words

00:33:34.200 of course

00:33:34.940 give you

00:33:35.280 another

00:33:35.640 set of

00:33:36.800 information

00:33:37.360 like a

00:33:38.520 printout

00:33:39.120 of what

00:33:39.920 might be

00:33:41.120 going on

00:33:41.480 in someone

00:33:41.860 else's

00:33:42.240 mind

00:33:42.640 but the

00:33:43.540 basic

00:33:43.860 ability

00:33:44.340 of just

00:33:44.820 imagining

00:33:45.520 what another

00:33:46.660 person is

00:33:47.200 thinking

00:33:47.540 or feeling

00:33:48.180 or wanting

00:33:49.160 or intending

00:33:50.000 or hoping

00:33:50.660 you know

00:33:52.180 all of that

00:33:53.140 could be done

00:33:53.800 without words

00:33:54.540 and that's why

00:33:55.140 you can have

00:33:55.740 for example

00:33:56.960 two deaf people

00:33:58.360 communicating

00:33:59.680 perfectly well

00:34:00.740 without

00:34:01.760 without speech

00:34:03.100 just reading

00:34:04.300 each other's

00:34:05.020 hand movements

00:34:06.380 or finger

00:34:07.960 movements

00:34:08.520 or facial

00:34:09.160 expressions

00:34:09.920 right

00:34:10.900 can you infer

00:34:11.680 a narrative

00:34:12.580 merely through

00:34:13.760 drama

00:34:14.400 I mean

00:34:15.200 that seems to me

00:34:16.040 to be what

00:34:16.420 you're pointing to

00:34:17.100 is you can

00:34:17.500 act it out

00:34:18.180 like it

00:34:19.100 seems to me

00:34:20.020 that what a

00:34:20.840 narrative is

00:34:21.440 is a verbal

00:34:22.160 description

00:34:22.860 of a drama

00:34:23.780 right

00:34:24.440 and the drama

00:34:25.000 is embodied

00:34:25.700 in the way

00:34:26.200 that you

00:34:26.520 described

00:34:27.080 so that a

00:34:27.720 mime artist

00:34:28.240 can manage

00:34:28.860 it or

00:34:29.260 people can

00:34:30.260 act it out

00:34:31.560 I would say

00:34:32.580 that the

00:34:33.000 fundamentals

00:34:33.560 whether you're

00:34:34.640 going to call

00:34:35.020 it a drama

00:34:35.580 the fundamentals

00:34:36.920 of communication

00:34:37.920 is that

00:34:39.400 two people

00:34:40.160 at least

00:34:40.860 two people

00:34:41.660 establish a

00:34:43.060 topic

00:34:43.360 and

00:34:45.220 right now

00:34:46.520 we're having

00:34:46.940 a conversation

00:34:47.640 and we're

00:34:48.740 both recognizing

00:34:49.660 what is the

00:34:50.240 topic of

00:34:50.800 conversation

00:34:51.440 and that's

00:34:52.720 an incredible

00:34:53.240 thing when you

00:34:53.780 stop to think

00:34:54.760 about it

00:34:55.340 because if you

00:34:56.160 look at two

00:34:56.700 individuals from

00:34:58.940 any other

00:34:59.420 species

00:34:59.920 if you think

00:35:01.760 of two sheep

00:35:02.620 in the field

00:35:03.900 or two dogs

00:35:05.420 that might be

00:35:06.460 in your home

00:35:07.120 the animals

00:35:08.460 are not

00:35:08.860 establishing a

00:35:09.720 topic

00:35:10.020 that they're

00:35:11.160 then going

00:35:11.600 to communicate

00:35:12.480 about

00:35:13.040 and yet

00:35:14.860 in humans

00:35:15.520 if you think

00:35:16.960 about a typical

00:35:17.720 toddler

00:35:18.200 they use the

00:35:20.140 pointing gesture

00:35:21.040 so you know

00:35:22.900 an 18 month

00:35:23.980 old

00:35:24.340 even younger

00:35:25.100 a 14 month

00:35:25.980 old child

00:35:26.620 will point

00:35:27.580 to something

00:35:28.160 look back

00:35:29.240 at their parent

00:35:29.860 to see if the

00:35:30.500 parent is looking

00:35:31.320 at what they're

00:35:31.900 pointing at

00:35:32.620 so they've

00:35:33.400 established

00:35:33.880 a topic

00:35:35.360 of conversation

00:35:36.260 all without

00:35:37.240 words

00:35:37.780 and autistic

00:35:39.160 kids often

00:35:40.000 are delayed

00:35:40.860 in the ability

00:35:42.580 to produce

00:35:43.460 the pointing

00:35:44.060 gesture

00:35:44.640 oh okay

00:35:45.640 okay

00:35:46.040 that's crucial

00:35:47.840 yeah

00:35:48.400 or if you

00:35:49.200 suddenly look

00:35:49.920 out the window

00:35:50.520 I'll turn

00:35:51.520 to look

00:35:51.920 at what

00:35:52.180 you're

00:35:52.340 looking at

00:35:53.020 right

00:35:53.880 and a 14

00:35:54.880 month old

00:35:55.580 child will

00:35:56.400 do that

00:35:56.800 that was

00:35:57.140 the work

00:35:57.520 of Jerome

00:35:58.040 Bruner

00:35:58.600 developmental

00:35:59.900 psychologist

00:36:00.700 way back

00:36:01.300 in the 70s

00:36:02.180 he called

00:36:02.820 it joint

00:36:03.280 attention

00:36:03.920 or shared

00:36:05.820 attention

00:36:06.640 and of course

00:36:08.140 you can elaborate

00:36:08.780 it into a narrative

00:36:09.860 because when

00:36:11.120 we're in the

00:36:11.540 audience

00:36:11.980 and we're

00:36:12.780 watching a play

00:36:13.600 in a theatre

00:36:14.440 we're not only

00:36:16.020 modelling

00:36:16.580 what is the actor

00:36:18.060 trying to convey

00:36:19.300 what's going on

00:36:20.020 in the actor's mind

00:36:20.900 but we're keeping

00:36:21.920 track of

00:36:22.520 how do all

00:36:23.420 the sequences

00:36:24.180 in the narrative

00:36:24.960 fit together

00:36:25.660 into a narrative

00:36:27.140 arc

00:36:27.680 so you can make

00:36:29.200 it as complex

00:36:29.820 as you like

00:36:30.460 but the simple

00:36:31.200 building blocks

00:36:32.200 are being able

00:36:33.660 to imagine

00:36:35.080 what someone else

00:36:35.840 is thinking

00:36:36.380 or attending

00:36:37.020 to

00:36:37.440 but can I

00:36:39.200 bring us back

00:36:40.440 to something

00:36:40.920 that you said

00:36:41.500 about Temple Grandin

00:36:42.680 is that okay?

00:36:43.720 Absolutely

00:36:44.220 Yeah

00:36:44.600 because

00:36:45.300 I said that

00:36:47.080 autism was a

00:36:48.020 difference

00:36:48.400 not just a

00:36:49.140 disability

00:36:49.700 and some of

00:36:51.100 the differences

00:36:51.720 include

00:36:53.400 excellent attention

00:36:55.020 to detail

00:36:55.860 Temple Grandin

00:36:57.540 talks about this

00:36:58.280 in some of her

00:36:58.880 books

00:36:59.180 where she

00:36:59.740 notices things

00:37:01.380 that other people

00:37:02.040 miss

00:37:02.440 just small details

00:37:03.520 in the environment

00:37:04.740 so if she was

00:37:05.880 looking at a

00:37:06.380 church

00:37:06.820 she'd be looking

00:37:07.860 at the shape

00:37:08.560 of the windows

00:37:09.120 or the number

00:37:09.780 of the windows

00:37:10.420 or you know

00:37:11.700 the texture

00:37:13.260 of the bricks

00:37:13.960 all the small

00:37:14.760 detail

00:37:15.320 so you know

00:37:16.980 excellent attention

00:37:17.880 to detail

00:37:18.600 often excellent

00:37:20.380 memory for detail

00:37:21.640 and then

00:37:23.520 you know

00:37:24.040 something that I

00:37:24.860 introduced in my

00:37:25.840 recent book

00:37:27.100 The Pattern Seekers

00:37:28.360 is excellent

00:37:29.640 pattern recognition

00:37:30.820 and this kind of

00:37:33.200 relates to what

00:37:33.900 you were saying

00:37:34.380 that for non-autistic

00:37:35.800 people

00:37:36.340 we seem to move

00:37:38.380 very quickly

00:37:39.200 to the general

00:37:41.060 although we look

00:37:42.560 at specific things

00:37:43.640 like this specific

00:37:44.620 church

00:37:45.240 we very rapidly

00:37:46.660 slotted into a

00:37:48.320 category called

00:37:49.200 churches

00:37:49.740 and then we

00:37:51.020 kind of

00:37:51.340 we abstract

00:37:52.120 so that if we're

00:37:53.640 asked to draw the

00:37:54.360 church as you gave

00:37:55.200 the example

00:37:55.780 we don't produce

00:37:57.560 a very

00:37:58.420 lifelike

00:38:00.520 a photographic

00:38:02.280 representation

00:38:02.940 representation of

00:38:03.600 this particular

00:38:04.300 church

00:38:04.640 no it's icon

00:38:04.700 yeah I mean

00:38:06.120 it's kind of

00:38:06.640 it's almost like

00:38:07.420 it's almost like

00:38:09.060 you know

00:38:11.120 our drawing

00:38:12.180 or our memory

00:38:13.180 of the object

00:38:13.960 is filtered

00:38:15.080 through

00:38:15.620 what are the

00:38:16.480 general

00:38:16.800 properties

00:38:17.460 of churches

00:38:18.840 or if we have

00:38:20.120 to draw a picture

00:38:20.840 of a dog

00:38:21.400 we might have

00:38:22.380 in our mind

00:38:23.100 kind of the

00:38:23.940 general

00:38:24.420 prototype

00:38:26.260 of a dog

00:38:27.300 and that's

00:38:27.720 what we draw

00:38:28.320 whereas for

00:38:29.620 an autistic

00:38:30.060 person

00:38:30.660 the details

00:38:31.720 matter

00:38:32.220 and actually

00:38:33.280 they seem

00:38:33.760 to be very

00:38:34.320 they have a

00:38:35.620 cognitive style

00:38:36.700 where they prefer

00:38:38.020 to go

00:38:38.560 to stay

00:38:39.220 in the specifics

00:38:40.180 rather than

00:38:41.000 to generalize

00:38:41.740 very quickly

00:38:42.320 and that's

00:38:43.360 that brings us

00:38:44.040 onto the topic

00:38:44.700 of systemizing

00:38:45.720 because when you

00:38:47.600 systemize

00:38:48.280 what you're trying

00:38:48.820 to do

00:38:49.300 is understand

00:38:50.400 a system

00:38:51.260 that's in front

00:38:51.960 of you

00:38:52.380 could be any

00:38:53.540 kind of system

00:38:54.320 it could be

00:38:55.700 the light switch

00:38:56.680 in the house

00:38:58.220 where you're

00:38:58.940 trying to understand

00:38:59.720 what happens

00:39:00.320 if the switch

00:39:01.080 is up or down

00:39:02.080 you know

00:39:03.040 is it turning

00:39:03.640 on this light

00:39:05.120 or that light

00:39:05.800 it could be

00:39:06.680 the water faucet

00:39:07.740 or tap

00:39:08.480 as we say

00:39:09.100 in the UK

00:39:09.660 you know

00:39:10.500 if I turn

00:39:11.200 the tap

00:39:12.500 you know

00:39:13.640 clockwise

00:39:14.960 the water

00:39:15.660 comes out

00:39:16.200 faster

00:39:16.680 so you're

00:39:17.460 looking at

00:39:17.800 these little

00:39:18.160 systems in the

00:39:19.000 world

00:39:19.340 it could be

00:39:20.200 the keyboard

00:39:20.760 in your house

00:39:21.820 where you

00:39:22.840 kind of learn

00:39:23.620 that if I play

00:39:24.540 this note

00:39:25.140 or this

00:39:25.580 combination

00:39:25.980 of notes

00:39:26.720 I get this

00:39:27.640 particular sound

00:39:28.620 but it's the

00:39:29.640 detail that matters

00:39:30.640 because if you

00:39:31.360 start moving

00:39:32.480 to the abstraction

00:39:33.500 or to the general

00:39:35.120 you're not going

00:39:36.140 to understand

00:39:36.780 the system

00:39:37.400 in front of you

00:39:38.240 and I see

00:39:39.900 this as an

00:39:40.500 asset

00:39:40.980 you know

00:39:42.040 in the old days

00:39:42.880 they used to say

00:39:43.500 that autistic people

00:39:44.500 have difficulty

00:39:46.200 generalizing

00:39:47.120 I actually see

00:39:48.580 this as an asset

00:39:49.520 rather than

00:39:50.140 a disability

00:39:50.860 because if you

00:39:52.520 really want

00:39:52.940 to understand

00:39:53.580 let's say

00:39:54.680 the iPhone

00:39:55.280 10

00:39:55.820 rather than

00:39:56.860 the iPhone

00:39:57.440 12

00:39:57.980 there's a world

00:39:59.500 of difference

00:40:00.060 in the operating

00:40:00.760 systems

00:40:01.360 between these

00:40:02.000 two devices

00:40:02.740 and if you're

00:40:03.800 going to become

00:40:04.180 an expert

00:40:04.780 in this device

00:40:06.560 you know

00:40:07.460 don't rush

00:40:08.100 to try to

00:40:09.000 understand

00:40:09.520 what do all

00:40:10.620 iPhones share

00:40:11.620 just try and

00:40:12.560 understand this

00:40:13.280 particular system

00:40:14.220 in front of you

00:40:15.040 and that could

00:40:15.980 be true for

00:40:16.840 anything you're

00:40:18.380 trying to

00:40:18.800 systemize

00:40:19.540 you know

00:40:20.960 you might be

00:40:21.440 trying to

00:40:21.780 understand

00:40:22.320 the wings

00:40:23.620 of a butterfly

00:40:24.380 of this

00:40:25.580 particular

00:40:26.100 butterfly

00:40:26.600 or you know

00:40:28.420 the structure

00:40:29.720 of a snowflake

00:40:30.980 or

00:40:32.760 you know

00:40:34.420 how birds

00:40:36.900 are able

00:40:37.260 to fly

00:40:37.800 but not

00:40:38.360 all birds

00:40:39.060 how this

00:40:39.840 particular bird

00:40:40.600 is able

00:40:40.960 to fly

00:40:41.460 that's a

00:40:42.760 natural system

00:40:43.840 you know

00:40:44.700 the iPhone

00:40:45.140 is more of a

00:40:46.080 digital

00:40:46.720 or you know

00:40:48.000 electronic

00:40:49.720 system

00:40:50.500 music

00:40:52.320 we talked

00:40:52.780 about earlier

00:40:53.340 is a kind

00:40:54.420 of

00:40:54.580 it's a set

00:40:55.400 of notes

00:40:57.240 but what

00:40:58.540 systems share

00:40:59.420 is that they

00:41:00.000 are rule

00:41:00.580 governed

00:41:01.020 so when you

00:41:02.480 systemize

00:41:03.080 you're trying

00:41:03.440 to analyze

00:41:04.000 the rules

00:41:04.860 that govern

00:41:05.720 the system

00:41:06.240 in order

00:41:06.540 to predict

00:41:07.700 how the

00:41:08.540 system works

00:41:09.840 or to

00:41:10.280 understand

00:41:10.700 the system

00:41:11.220 in great

00:41:11.640 depth

00:41:12.060 so this

00:41:13.060 is kind

00:41:13.440 of

00:41:13.580 where I

00:41:14.060 see

00:41:14.440 the

00:41:15.780 strengths

00:41:16.180 of

00:41:16.360 autistic

00:41:16.700 people

00:41:17.220 and this

00:41:18.420 kind

00:41:18.640 of

00:41:18.780 fits

00:41:19.020 into

00:41:19.240 this

00:41:19.480 whole

00:41:19.820 neurodiversity

00:41:21.340 framework

00:41:21.960 if we

00:41:23.100 just focus

00:41:23.800 on the

00:41:24.140 things

00:41:24.400 that they

00:41:24.760 have

00:41:24.920 challenges

00:41:25.440 with

00:41:25.980 it's

00:41:26.940 like a

00:41:27.240 deficit

00:41:27.600 model

00:41:28.100 but

00:41:29.660 if we

00:41:30.240 recognize

00:41:30.760 that

00:41:31.140 brains

00:41:31.740 develop

00:41:32.180 differently

00:41:32.700 and that

00:41:33.800 some

00:41:34.060 brains

00:41:34.480 in

00:41:34.920 some

00:41:35.680 humans

00:41:36.160 in the

00:41:36.560 world

00:41:36.860 focus

00:41:37.780 more on

00:41:38.260 systems

00:41:38.720 than they

00:41:39.120 do

00:41:39.280 on

00:41:39.460 people

00:41:39.880 because

00:41:41.440 systems

00:41:41.980 are

00:41:42.220 ultimately

00:41:42.900 predictable

00:41:43.500 if you

00:41:44.340 focus

00:41:44.760 on the

00:41:45.140 rules

00:41:45.580 I call

00:41:46.920 these

00:41:47.200 if and

00:41:48.040 then

00:41:48.540 rules

00:41:49.280 if I

00:41:50.220 take

00:41:50.500 something

00:41:51.020 and I

00:41:51.920 do

00:41:52.080 something

00:41:52.380 to it

00:41:52.980 then I

00:41:53.580 get a

00:41:53.840 particular

00:41:54.160 result

00:41:54.760 so it's

00:41:55.400 kind of

00:41:55.660 a

00:41:55.940 Boolean

00:41:56.260 logic

00:41:56.900 trying to

00:41:58.020 understand

00:41:58.460 how a

00:41:58.860 system

00:41:59.160 works

00:41:59.600 and

00:42:00.460 bringing

00:42:00.880 this

00:42:01.120 back

00:42:01.320 to

00:42:01.500 autism

00:42:01.920 there's

00:42:02.900 growing

00:42:03.300 evidence

00:42:03.780 that

00:42:04.000 autistic

00:42:04.340 people

00:42:04.800 are

00:42:05.640 better

00:42:06.040 than

00:42:06.420 non-autistic

00:42:07.060 people

00:42:07.580 at

00:42:08.840 understanding

00:42:09.400 systems

00:42:10.240 at

00:42:11.040 pattern

00:42:11.400 recognition

00:42:12.020 which

00:42:13.160 is

00:42:13.320 obviously

00:42:13.660 a

00:42:13.840 great

00:42:14.060 asset

00:42:14.380 in

00:42:14.620 a lot

00:42:14.900 of

00:42:15.040 different

00:42:15.320 environments

00:42:16.040 so

00:42:17.240 do

00:42:17.480 you

00:42:17.680 see

00:42:18.200 okay

00:42:18.940 so

00:42:19.280 two

00:42:19.860 things

00:42:20.360 is

00:42:21.740 there

00:42:21.940 a

00:42:22.180 dimension

00:42:22.940 of

00:42:23.320 systematizing

00:42:24.460 or

00:42:25.220 systemizing

00:42:25.920 and a

00:42:26.640 dimension

00:42:27.100 of

00:42:27.500 empathizing

00:42:28.220 like

00:42:29.020 because

00:42:29.380 I've

00:42:29.740 seen

00:42:30.040 your

00:42:30.360 model

00:42:30.760 as

00:42:31.080 systemizing

00:42:32.340 on

00:42:32.560 one

00:42:32.820 pole

00:42:33.160 and

00:42:33.360 empathizing

00:42:33.940 on

00:42:34.100 the

00:42:34.220 other

00:42:34.440 but

00:42:34.660 right

00:42:34.980 okay

00:42:35.620 but

00:42:36.000 no

00:42:36.380 but it's

00:42:36.820 two

00:42:37.060 distributions

00:42:37.740 okay

00:42:38.140 one other

00:42:38.800 question

00:42:39.200 too

00:42:39.480 just to

00:42:40.400 cram it

00:42:40.800 in

00:42:40.940 there

00:42:41.080 and

00:42:41.200 we'll

00:42:41.380 we'll

00:42:41.900 get

00:42:42.040 both

00:42:42.340 of

00:42:42.440 them

00:42:42.540 at

00:42:42.680 the

00:42:42.800 same

00:42:42.980 time

00:42:43.240 maybe

00:42:43.480 well

00:42:44.060 I

00:42:44.560 couldn't

00:42:44.840 help

00:42:45.080 but

00:42:45.280 think

00:42:45.660 while

00:42:45.920 you

00:42:46.080 were

00:42:46.220 talking

00:42:46.620 that

00:42:46.960 I

00:42:49.620 guess

00:42:49.880 this

00:42:50.260 sort

00:42:50.500 of

00:42:50.600 came

00:42:50.800 out

00:42:50.960 of

00:42:51.080 my

00:42:51.380 to

00:42:53.300 some

00:42:53.540 degree

00:42:53.800 out

00:42:53.940 of

00:42:54.020 my

00:42:54.140 study

00:42:54.460 of

00:42:54.980 mythology

00:42:55.480 you

00:42:55.780 know

00:42:55.920 in

00:42:56.080 the

00:42:56.260 story

00:42:57.340 of

00:42:57.560 Genesis

00:42:57.980 it's

00:42:58.380 engineers

00:42:58.860 that

00:42:59.200 build

00:42:59.480 the

00:42:59.640 tower

00:42:59.920 of

00:43:00.120 Babel

00:43:00.520 like

00:43:01.540 it's

00:43:01.900 the

00:43:02.300 people

00:43:02.580 we

00:43:02.780 would

00:43:02.960 call

00:43:03.200 engineers

00:43:03.700 and

00:43:04.520 they're

00:43:05.200 inclined

00:43:05.700 to

00:43:10.400 that

00:43:10.560 might

00:43:11.940 be

00:43:12.160 relevant

00:43:12.520 to

00:43:12.860 the

00:43:13.120 discussion

00:43:13.520 that

00:43:13.740 we

00:43:13.860 just

00:43:14.120 had

00:43:14.460 which

00:43:14.700 is

00:43:14.900 that

00:43:15.280 human

00:43:16.280 beings

00:43:16.680 are

00:43:16.900 staggeringly

00:43:17.940 remarkable

00:43:18.920 in their

00:43:19.460 ability

00:43:19.900 to use

00:43:20.540 tools

00:43:21.140 and

00:43:22.500 is

00:43:23.720 that

00:43:24.060 systemizing

00:43:26.060 tendency

00:43:26.860 natural

00:43:28.140 variation

00:43:28.920 in the

00:43:29.560 proclivity

00:43:30.480 to

00:43:31.240 use

00:43:31.680 to see

00:43:32.420 the world

00:43:32.840 as a

00:43:33.220 place

00:43:33.660 of

00:43:33.860 tools

00:43:34.400 you know

00:43:34.880 in the

00:43:35.560 in the

00:43:36.700 Gibson

00:43:38.880 model

00:43:39.380 that I've

00:43:39.840 elaborated

00:43:40.380 so

00:43:40.900 if

00:43:42.160 once

00:43:42.680 you

00:43:42.860 specify

00:43:43.360 a

00:43:43.680 target

00:43:44.060 of

00:43:44.620 a

00:43:44.980 destination

00:43:45.600 your

00:43:47.020 perception

00:43:47.560 orients

00:43:48.220 it

00:43:48.420 orients

00:43:49.660 itself

00:43:50.140 to

00:43:50.740 show

00:43:51.280 you

00:43:51.460 a

00:43:51.660 pathway

00:43:52.200 okay

00:43:53.380 now

00:43:53.740 destination

00:43:56.240 pathway

00:43:57.340 tools

00:43:58.340 obstacles

00:43:59.960 okay

00:44:00.540 but there's

00:44:01.060 this

00:44:01.600 this

00:44:02.020 now

00:44:02.300 Gibson

00:44:02.740 didn't

00:44:03.080 talk

00:44:03.340 about

00:44:03.540 this

00:44:03.740 but

00:44:03.900 there's

00:44:04.140 a

00:44:04.300 social

00:44:04.640 equivalent

00:44:05.200 hey

00:44:05.500 because

00:44:06.200 friends

00:44:06.740 and foes

00:44:07.560 are like

00:44:07.980 the social

00:44:08.720 analog

00:44:09.220 of

00:44:09.580 tools

00:44:09.960 and

00:44:10.160 obstacles

00:44:10.660 and

00:44:11.900 then

00:44:12.140 I'm

00:44:12.600 wondering

00:44:13.480 if

00:44:13.940 you know

00:44:14.820 the

00:44:15.040 empathizing

00:44:15.800 types

00:44:16.340 construe

00:44:17.640 the world

00:44:18.100 as a

00:44:18.500 place

00:44:18.820 of

00:44:19.000 social

00:44:19.440 relations

00:44:20.040 in

00:44:20.460 relationship

00:44:21.000 to a

00:44:21.480 goal

00:44:21.720 and the

00:44:22.120 systemizers

00:44:22.900 see tools

00:44:24.500 and obstacles

00:44:25.520 you're

00:44:26.820 you're

00:44:26.840 you know

00:44:27.560 you said

00:44:28.040 the

00:44:28.260 autistic

00:44:28.820 proclivity

00:44:31.100 is also

00:44:31.800 to

00:44:32.280 hyper

00:44:33.920 react

00:44:34.500 to

00:44:34.900 the

00:44:36.040 unexpected

00:44:36.800 you know

00:44:37.420 the

00:44:37.540 unexpected

00:44:38.020 is a

00:44:38.560 very

00:44:38.740 particular

00:44:39.280 form

00:44:40.140 of

00:44:40.320 obstacle

00:44:40.800 right

00:44:41.140 it's

00:44:41.380 when

00:44:41.600 the

00:44:41.840 system

00:44:42.220 doesn't

00:44:42.700 do

00:44:42.940 what

00:44:43.180 it's

00:44:43.380 supposed

00:44:43.700 to

00:44:43.940 do

00:44:44.240 and

00:44:45.240 you

00:44:45.540 could

00:44:45.680 imagine

00:44:46.100 that

00:44:46.340 if

00:44:46.480 you're

00:44:46.780 system

00:44:48.160 oriented

00:44:49.120 that

00:44:50.140 part

00:44:50.640 of

00:44:50.760 that

00:44:50.940 might

00:44:51.180 be

00:44:51.400 sensitivity

00:44:52.020 to

00:44:52.680 deviation

00:44:53.820 because

00:44:54.340 it

00:44:54.540 indicates

00:44:54.980 a flaw

00:44:55.420 in your

00:44:55.700 understanding

00:44:56.220 of this

00:44:56.520 so is

00:44:57.080 it

00:44:57.200 associated

00:44:57.720 with

00:44:58.000 tool

00:44:58.240 use

00:44:58.560 do you

00:44:58.820 think

00:44:59.040 is

00:44:59.200 this

00:44:59.380 something

00:44:59.700 that

00:44:59.940 fundamental

00:45:00.520 I'm

00:45:01.380 sorry

00:45:01.800 is

00:45:02.060 what

00:45:02.300 associated

00:45:02.960 with

00:45:03.180 tool

00:45:03.360 use

00:45:03.540 systemizing

00:45:04.300 is

00:45:04.600 are

00:45:05.120 the

00:45:05.360 neurological

00:45:06.360 variations

00:45:07.340 you're

00:45:07.780 describing

00:45:08.240 variations

00:45:09.160 in

00:45:09.580 tool

00:45:10.400 use

00:45:10.820 proclivity

00:45:11.580 absolutely

00:45:12.480 so

00:45:13.000 so

00:45:13.840 my

00:45:14.160 last

00:45:14.920 book

00:45:15.160 the

00:45:15.340 pattern

00:45:15.680 seekers

00:45:16.120 the

00:45:16.940 subtitle

00:45:17.740 was

00:45:18.380 how

00:45:19.540 autism

00:45:20.080 drives

00:45:20.740 invention

00:45:21.440 and

00:45:23.640 the

00:45:24.200 book

00:45:24.420 is

00:45:24.560 really

00:45:24.820 a

00:45:25.020 theory

00:45:25.260 of

00:45:25.460 invention

00:45:25.960 by

00:45:27.100 which

00:45:27.340 I

00:45:27.520 mean

00:45:27.820 how

00:45:28.980 humans

00:45:30.200 homo

00:45:31.080 sapiens

00:45:31.720 uniquely

00:45:32.860 have the

00:45:33.400 capacity

00:45:33.920 for

00:45:34.720 generative

00:45:35.420 invention

00:45:36.040 we

00:45:37.700 don't

00:45:37.920 just

00:45:38.140 invent

00:45:38.640 one

00:45:39.200 tool

00:45:39.640 and

00:45:40.360 leave

00:45:40.560 it

00:45:40.660 at

00:45:40.780 that

00:45:41.140 what

00:45:41.980 seems

00:45:42.300 to

00:45:42.560 be

00:45:42.820 unique

00:45:43.280 about

00:45:43.560 our

00:45:43.820 species

00:45:44.260 is

00:45:45.160 that

00:45:45.340 we

00:45:45.560 invent

00:45:46.240 unstoppably

00:45:47.160 and

00:45:48.140 in the

00:45:48.400 book

00:45:48.640 what I

00:45:48.900 do

00:45:49.060 is

00:45:49.200 I

00:45:49.340 go

00:45:49.580 back

00:45:50.120 through

00:45:50.340 the

00:45:50.540 archaeological

00:45:51.060 evidence

00:45:52.160 which

00:45:53.740 suggests

00:45:54.240 that

00:45:54.560 humans

00:45:54.980 have

00:45:55.300 been

00:45:55.500 inventing

00:45:56.200 complex

00:45:56.920 tools

00:45:57.460 for

00:45:58.360 at least

00:45:58.680 70 to

00:45:59.340 100,000

00:46:00.040 years

00:46:00.500 and I

00:46:01.720 kind of

00:46:01.960 take

00:46:02.220 the

00:46:02.420 reader

00:46:02.660 through

00:46:03.160 for

00:46:04.080 example

00:46:04.520 the

00:46:05.140 first

00:46:06.400 bow

00:46:06.740 and

00:46:06.900 arrow

00:46:07.180 which

00:46:09.120 the

00:46:10.220 evidence

00:46:10.580 is there

00:46:11.000 in

00:46:11.160 archaeology

00:46:11.900 was about

00:46:12.600 70,000

00:46:13.440 years

00:46:13.760 ago

00:46:14.060 it's a

00:46:15.360 much more

00:46:15.740 complex

00:46:16.260 tool than

00:46:16.840 the kind

00:46:17.200 of tools

00:46:17.660 that other

00:46:18.100 species

00:46:18.560 use

00:46:19.100 you know

00:46:20.440 a monkey

00:46:21.320 or an

00:46:23.160 ape

00:46:23.500 that picks

00:46:23.940 up a

00:46:24.300 rock

00:46:24.620 to use

00:46:25.620 it as

00:46:25.880 a hammer

00:46:26.260 to crack

00:46:26.800 a nut

00:46:27.260 is using

00:46:28.340 a tool

00:46:28.920 but it's

00:46:30.220 a very

00:46:30.460 simple

00:46:30.860 tool

00:46:31.280 and they

00:46:32.920 could even

00:46:33.360 just be

00:46:33.800 achieving

00:46:34.780 the outcome

00:46:35.600 getting the

00:46:36.760 juicy fruit

00:46:37.600 through

00:46:38.840 associative

00:46:40.080 learning

00:46:40.580 that

00:46:42.180 using the

00:46:43.620 rock to

00:46:44.380 crack the

00:46:44.760 nut gets

00:46:45.260 you the

00:46:45.540 juicy fruit

00:46:46.140 it gets

00:46:46.500 you the

00:46:46.760 reward

00:46:47.100 and so

00:46:47.820 they repeat

00:46:48.380 that

00:46:48.680 and many

00:46:49.500 species

00:46:49.880 have been

00:46:51.060 repeating

00:46:51.520 that kind

00:46:52.680 of simple

00:46:53.280 tool use

00:46:54.060 for millions

00:46:54.940 of years

00:46:56.360 with no

00:46:57.620 innovation

00:46:58.200 there's no

00:46:59.100 innovation

00:46:59.560 and there's

00:47:00.080 no complexity

00:47:00.840 to the

00:47:01.420 system

00:47:01.840 whereas a

00:47:02.780 bow and

00:47:03.080 arrow

00:47:03.400 uses this

00:47:05.100 if and

00:47:05.900 then

00:47:06.460 boolean

00:47:07.420 logic

00:47:07.780 that if

00:47:08.900 I take

00:47:09.380 a stretchy

00:47:09.920 fiber

00:47:10.440 and I

00:47:11.500 attach an

00:47:12.220 arrow to

00:47:12.820 it and

00:47:13.260 release the

00:47:13.820 tension

00:47:14.220 then the

00:47:15.200 arrow will

00:47:15.720 fly

00:47:16.120 so it's

00:47:16.820 if and

00:47:17.420 then

00:47:17.820 and the

00:47:18.760 first musical

00:47:19.520 instrument

00:47:20.040 again it's

00:47:20.720 a complex

00:47:21.360 tool

00:47:21.860 was actually

00:47:23.860 from 40,000

00:47:25.000 years ago

00:47:25.620 it was the

00:47:26.820 hollow bone

00:47:27.640 of a bird

00:47:28.520 which one of

00:47:30.600 our ancestors

00:47:31.300 had drilled

00:47:32.220 holes into

00:47:33.000 it

00:47:33.380 so it's a

00:47:34.840 flute

00:47:35.200 the first

00:47:35.940 musical instrument

00:47:36.740 that's been

00:47:37.100 found

00:47:37.540 but the if

00:47:38.740 and then

00:47:39.520 algorithm that

00:47:40.520 drives human

00:47:41.360 invention

00:47:41.860 is if I

00:47:43.420 blow down

00:47:44.140 the bone

00:47:44.940 and I

00:47:46.340 cover one

00:47:46.960 hole

00:47:47.380 then I get

00:47:48.280 a particular

00:47:48.760 note

00:47:49.260 but if I

00:47:50.400 blow down

00:47:50.920 the hollow

00:47:51.260 bone and

00:47:52.240 cover two

00:47:52.820 holes I

00:47:53.480 get a

00:47:53.740 different

00:47:54.020 note

00:47:54.460 so the

00:47:55.760 ancestor who

00:47:57.420 invented this

00:47:58.540 flute

00:47:59.020 had created

00:48:00.480 a complex

00:48:01.140 tool

00:48:01.620 and also

00:48:03.580 had created

00:48:04.580 a complex

00:48:05.200 system

00:48:05.780 which is

00:48:06.760 music

00:48:07.080 itself

00:48:07.880 music

00:48:09.100 follows

00:48:09.540 rules

00:48:10.060 or patterns

00:48:10.960 you know

00:48:12.000 you can have

00:48:12.680 different notes

00:48:13.320 that sit in

00:48:14.080 relation to

00:48:14.720 each other

00:48:15.200 you can have

00:48:16.760 musical keys

00:48:17.720 you can have

00:48:18.520 musical phrases

00:48:19.360 that repeat

00:48:20.100 etc

00:48:20.600 so just like

00:48:22.140 any other

00:48:22.580 system it's

00:48:23.180 rule governed

00:48:23.840 and back to

00:48:25.620 your point

00:48:26.280 is systemizing

00:48:28.260 a dimension

00:48:29.120 of individual

00:48:29.760 differences

00:48:30.340 absolutely

00:48:31.020 we can all

00:48:32.440 systemize to

00:48:33.280 some level

00:48:33.940 so you know

00:48:35.640 if something

00:48:36.120 goes wrong

00:48:36.680 at home

00:48:37.120 you can try

00:48:37.780 and fix

00:48:38.220 it

00:48:38.920 by understanding

00:48:39.880 the system

00:48:41.540 you know

00:48:42.500 if your

00:48:43.020 door handle

00:48:44.000 won't open

00:48:44.720 that's the

00:48:45.920 problem

00:48:46.280 that you're

00:48:46.620 the challenge

00:48:47.180 that you're

00:48:47.540 trying to

00:48:47.840 solve

00:48:48.240 and you

00:48:49.300 might try

00:48:49.720 and understand

00:48:50.160 well what's

00:48:50.800 actually stopping

00:48:51.540 the handle

00:48:52.020 from turning

00:48:52.700 you decompose

00:48:54.740 it into parts

00:48:55.620 yeah

00:48:56.020 and what

00:48:56.920 Temple Grandin

00:48:57.800 was kind of

00:48:59.160 telling us

00:48:59.720 and what

00:49:00.220 autistic people

00:49:01.580 do when they

00:49:02.180 approach a

00:49:02.880 problem

00:49:03.280 is they try

00:49:04.660 and take the

00:49:05.180 problem apart

00:49:05.980 they want to

00:49:06.800 see what

00:49:07.180 are the

00:49:07.400 individual

00:49:07.860 components

00:49:08.920 the if

00:49:09.680 the and

00:49:10.560 and the

00:49:11.000 then

00:49:11.320 and what

00:49:12.940 what drives

00:49:13.740 human invention

00:49:14.640 is that once

00:49:15.520 we've understood

00:49:16.140 the pattern

00:49:17.460 the if

00:49:18.000 and then

00:49:18.760 we can then

00:49:19.860 play with the

00:49:20.600 if

00:49:20.980 because that's

00:49:21.800 one parameter

00:49:22.540 or we could

00:49:23.900 play with the

00:49:24.580 and

00:49:25.040 which is the

00:49:26.140 operation

00:49:26.720 engineers call it

00:49:27.960 input

00:49:28.300 operation

00:49:29.100 output

00:49:29.640 but I call

00:49:31.240 it if

00:49:31.600 and then

00:49:32.280 and you

00:49:33.580 know

00:49:33.740 and some

00:49:34.280 of us

00:49:34.680 systemize

00:49:35.580 better than

00:49:36.560 others

00:49:36.960 autistic people

00:49:38.620 may systemize

00:49:39.620 non-stop

00:49:40.520 that they're

00:49:41.060 looking around

00:49:41.600 the world

00:49:42.120 and they're

00:49:43.020 fascinated by

00:49:44.060 how is that

00:49:45.020 table made

00:49:45.800 how is the

00:49:47.240 leg of the

00:49:47.680 table actually

00:49:48.300 joined to

00:49:49.580 the table

00:49:50.720 surface itself

00:49:51.760 you know

00:49:52.660 or why is

00:49:53.300 that table

00:49:54.240 leg a little

00:49:55.160 bit wonky

00:49:55.820 you know

00:49:56.600 so they're

00:49:56.860 trying to

00:49:57.240 understand the

00:49:57.940 system

00:49:58.380 or could

00:49:59.820 you know

00:50:00.180 could you

00:50:00.800 take an

00:50:01.520 existing

00:50:01.920 system

00:50:02.440 and make

00:50:02.860 a change

00:50:03.380 to it

00:50:03.860 so that

00:50:04.720 you've

00:50:04.920 invented

00:50:05.320 a new

00:50:05.780 system

00:50:06.280 and you

00:50:08.260 know

00:50:08.420 we can

00:50:09.080 think of

00:50:09.760 autistic

00:50:10.960 people

00:50:11.540 who have

00:50:12.880 used

00:50:14.120 systemizing

00:50:14.960 to their

00:50:15.500 advantage

00:50:16.180 and one

00:50:16.700 example

00:50:17.080 would be

00:50:17.520 Elon Musk

00:50:18.360 Elon Musk

00:50:19.900 came out

00:50:20.420 as autistic

00:50:21.000 a few

00:50:21.900 years ago

00:50:22.460 you know

00:50:24.420 he's an

00:50:24.840 engineer

00:50:25.260 and we

00:50:25.800 can take

00:50:26.180 this back

00:50:26.620 to

00:50:27.900 the

00:50:28.180 Tower

00:50:28.440 of

00:50:28.640 Babel

00:50:29.020 you know

00:50:31.060 when the

00:50:31.620 Old Testament

00:50:32.180 was being

00:50:32.700 written

00:50:33.120 you know

00:50:34.440 that may

00:50:34.840 have only

00:50:35.140 been

00:50:35.360 3,000

00:50:36.100 or 5,000

00:50:36.820 years ago

00:50:37.380 humans

00:50:38.220 have been

00:50:38.680 doing

00:50:39.060 this

00:50:39.500 systemizing

00:50:40.220 for at

00:50:40.760 least

00:50:40.980 70 to

00:50:41.680 100,000

00:50:42.400 years

00:50:42.880 building

00:50:43.940 things

00:50:44.340 as complex

00:50:45.380 as the

00:50:45.780 Tower

00:50:46.060 of Babel

00:50:46.680 but the

00:50:47.980 engineers

00:50:48.580 the

00:50:48.880 systemizers

00:50:49.600 needed to

00:50:50.860 make sure

00:50:51.440 that the

00:50:52.040 tower

00:50:52.580 was going

00:50:53.300 to stand

00:50:53.720 up

00:50:54.060 and was

00:50:54.780 going to

00:50:54.960 be able

00:50:55.260 to withstand

00:50:55.860 the wind

00:50:57.160 was made

00:50:58.060 from the

00:50:58.700 right

00:50:58.880 materials

00:50:59.540 how all

00:51:00.640 the pieces

00:51:01.080 were going

00:51:01.380 to lock

00:51:01.720 together

00:51:02.200 just like

00:51:03.420 when we

00:51:03.860 drive over

00:51:04.640 I don't

00:51:06.180 know

00:51:06.360 the bridge

00:51:07.200 in San

00:51:07.620 Francisco

00:51:08.120 those were

00:51:09.060 the engineers

00:51:09.740 and the

00:51:10.120 systemizers

00:51:10.700 who produced

00:51:11.580 that incredible

00:51:12.280 invention

00:51:12.860 but the

00:51:14.680 empathizers

00:51:15.400 might be

00:51:15.960 you know

00:51:16.400 again

00:51:16.980 that's another

00:51:17.460 bell curve

00:51:18.220 of individual

00:51:18.880 differences

00:51:19.440 some people

00:51:21.160 have a

00:51:22.180 greater

00:51:22.500 interest

00:51:23.240 or drive

00:51:23.960 to empathize

00:51:25.400 and they're

00:51:26.120 the ones

00:51:26.440 who might

00:51:26.780 be kind

00:51:27.220 of much

00:51:27.500 more focused

00:51:28.080 on communicating

00:51:29.420 and checking

00:51:30.440 how other

00:51:31.500 people in

00:51:31.980 the community

00:51:32.520 are

00:51:32.960 checking in

00:51:34.040 with their

00:51:34.360 friends

00:51:34.720 with their

00:51:35.120 family

00:51:35.480 making sure

00:51:36.020 nobody's

00:51:36.520 left out

00:51:37.160 they're not

00:51:37.920 so focused

00:51:39.380 on you

00:51:40.440 know

00:51:40.700 why is the

00:51:41.700 door sticking

00:51:42.360 or you

00:51:44.060 know

00:51:44.240 how is

00:51:44.780 this radio

00:51:45.420 made

00:51:45.900 but they're

00:51:47.020 more interested

00:51:48.020 in you know

00:51:48.720 can I

00:51:49.180 communicate

00:51:49.680 can I

00:51:50.420 can I

00:51:51.320 create

00:51:51.580 relationships

00:51:52.260 and can I

00:51:52.920 look after

00:51:53.420 relationships

00:51:54.040 now you

00:51:55.460 have associated

00:51:56.340 those differences

00:51:57.220 with sex

00:51:57.920 differences as

00:51:58.740 well and

00:51:59.260 I know

00:51:59.980 among

00:52:00.360 chimpanzees

00:52:01.460 there are

00:52:02.500 marked

00:52:03.920 sex

00:52:05.360 differences

00:52:05.860 in

00:52:06.420 play toy

00:52:08.000 preference

00:52:08.640 in juvenile

00:52:09.260 chimps

00:52:09.760 so the

00:52:10.220 if you

00:52:11.800 give a

00:52:12.280 male

00:52:12.800 juvenile

00:52:13.900 something

00:52:15.560 that

00:52:15.860 approximates

00:52:16.540 a doll

00:52:17.040 he's likely

00:52:17.900 to tear

00:52:18.320 it apart

00:52:18.820 whereas a

00:52:19.560 female is

00:52:20.320 likely to

00:52:20.940 take even

00:52:21.580 a block

00:52:21.980 of wood

00:52:22.400 and treat

00:52:23.060 it as if

00:52:23.520 it's an

00:52:23.820 infant

00:52:24.180 let's say

00:52:25.300 and those

00:52:26.120 like

00:52:27.260 chimpanzee

00:52:28.960 juvenile

00:52:29.460 males

00:52:30.020 prefer

00:52:31.480 wheeled

00:52:32.440 toys to

00:52:33.500 infant

00:52:34.520 like toys

00:52:35.540 which is

00:52:36.080 quite remarkable

00:52:36.800 given that

00:52:37.360 they don't

00:52:37.680 really have

00:52:38.080 any

00:52:38.340 what

00:52:39.800 they don't

00:52:40.260 now

00:52:40.620 now I'm

00:52:41.420 wondering

00:52:41.820 you know

00:52:42.720 if there's

00:52:43.680 an association

00:52:44.300 between that

00:52:45.380 and hunting

00:52:46.240 for example

00:52:47.780 and also

00:52:49.020 I'm curious

00:52:51.100 about what

00:52:51.860 you've made

00:52:52.480 of the

00:52:52.900 sex

00:52:53.180 differences

00:52:53.740 you know

00:52:54.320 we kind

00:52:54.960 of hypothesized

00:52:55.840 already

00:52:56.240 that

00:52:56.600 a landscape

00:52:58.480 a perceptual

00:52:59.180 landscape

00:52:59.640 could be

00:53:00.920 differentiated

00:53:02.220 systematically

00:53:03.660 so you're

00:53:04.320 looking for

00:53:04.820 tools and

00:53:05.280 obstacles

00:53:05.700 or it

00:53:06.160 could be

00:53:06.600 differentiated

00:53:07.340 socially

00:53:08.000 I mean

00:53:08.740 obviously

00:53:09.480 your

00:53:09.820 relationships

00:53:10.320 with people

00:53:11.160 are another

00:53:12.240 means to

00:53:13.320 joint ends

00:53:14.840 or individual

00:53:16.160 ends

00:53:16.740 I mean

00:53:17.660 so

00:53:18.760 you could

00:53:20.120 imagine

00:53:20.480 the world

00:53:20.980 lays itself

00:53:21.700 out to

00:53:22.320 people as

00:53:22.920 a place

00:53:23.400 of things

00:53:24.360 or as

00:53:25.420 a place

00:53:25.860 of social

00:53:27.020 interactions

00:53:27.680 and it

00:53:28.360 also

00:53:28.700 sheds

00:53:29.400 some light

00:53:29.880 on maybe

00:53:30.360 the hyper

00:53:30.940 reactivity

00:53:31.700 to novelty

00:53:32.420 that is

00:53:33.380 characteristic

00:53:33.860 of the

00:53:34.480 systematizer

00:53:35.240 because

00:53:35.700 if

00:53:36.900 one of

00:53:38.560 the

00:53:38.840 potential

00:53:39.840 pitfalls

00:53:40.600 of paying

00:53:41.300 attention

00:53:41.760 to

00:53:42.080 detail

00:53:42.700 would be

00:53:43.840 sensitivity

00:53:44.460 to variation

00:53:45.440 in detail

00:53:46.120 whereas if

00:53:46.700 your

00:53:47.000 proclivity

00:53:48.060 is to

00:53:48.660 perceive

00:53:49.200 higher up

00:53:49.860 the

00:53:50.020 abstraction

00:53:50.580 chain

00:53:51.120 those

00:53:51.760 differences

00:53:52.260 are going

00:53:52.700 to vanish

00:53:53.240 in the

00:53:54.020 generalization

00:53:55.280 yeah

00:53:55.740 but as

00:53:56.700 soon as

00:53:57.100 you move

00:53:57.540 to the

00:53:57.860 general

00:53:58.180 you're going

00:53:59.220 to lose

00:53:59.740 a lot

00:54:00.140 of information

00:54:00.860 right

00:54:01.600 right

00:54:01.940 of course

00:54:02.480 that's part

00:54:03.200 of the

00:54:03.380 advantage

00:54:03.840 of moving

00:54:04.320 to the

00:54:04.680 general

00:54:05.040 yeah

00:54:05.480 so if

00:54:05.900 I call

00:54:06.600 them

00:54:06.800 hypersystemizers

00:54:08.120 a hypersystemizer

00:54:09.440 which may

00:54:10.500 characterize

00:54:10.980 some or many

00:54:12.660 autistic people

00:54:13.540 they care more

00:54:14.940 about the

00:54:15.840 particular system

00:54:16.740 in front of them

00:54:17.620 to understand

00:54:18.560 this particular

00:54:19.340 system

00:54:19.800 so what

00:54:20.940 would be

00:54:21.200 an example

00:54:21.820 so

00:54:25.820 let's say

00:54:27.860 that the

00:54:28.200 child is

00:54:28.620 building

00:54:29.000 a tower

00:54:29.800 out of

00:54:30.320 lego

00:54:30.640 bricks

00:54:31.180 many

00:54:32.520 many autistic

00:54:32.880 kids

00:54:33.200 love

00:54:33.440 lego

00:54:33.840 you know

00:54:34.460 and they

00:54:35.440 you know

00:54:36.140 and they

00:54:37.100 often focus

00:54:37.780 for long

00:54:38.240 periods

00:54:38.820 you know

00:54:39.200 sometimes

00:54:39.560 it's called

00:54:40.040 obsessions

00:54:40.660 but I think

00:54:41.800 that's a

00:54:42.280 kind of

00:54:42.600 pejorative

00:54:43.140 way of

00:54:43.560 describing

00:54:44.000 what they're

00:54:44.580 doing

00:54:44.940 they're locked

00:54:45.960 into the

00:54:46.420 detail of

00:54:46.960 how do

00:54:47.340 all the

00:54:47.600 bricks

00:54:47.860 fit together

00:54:48.480 and what

00:54:49.780 they're trying

00:54:50.460 to build

00:54:51.060 you know

00:54:52.740 but they may

00:54:53.160 not be

00:54:53.480 looking at

00:54:54.080 other

00:54:54.520 children's

00:54:55.180 faces

00:54:55.600 in the

00:54:56.580 room

00:54:58.040 or at

00:54:59.140 adults

00:54:59.660 who are

00:54:59.880 trying to

00:55:00.220 interact

00:55:00.580 with them

00:55:00.960 because

00:55:01.140 they're so

00:55:01.540 focused

00:55:01.980 on

00:55:02.340 the

00:55:03.020 system

00:55:03.360 that

00:55:03.580 they're

00:55:03.740 trying

00:55:03.920 to

00:55:04.100 build

00:55:04.440 you know

00:55:06.720 they're not

00:55:08.220 trying to

00:55:08.500 think of

00:55:09.000 what are

00:55:09.980 all the

00:55:10.480 different

00:55:10.780 possible

00:55:11.360 systems

00:55:12.000 I could

00:55:12.420 build

00:55:12.760 they're

00:55:13.040 just

00:55:13.180 trying to

00:55:13.500 build

00:55:13.680 this

00:55:13.920 particular

00:55:14.320 system

00:55:14.860 once

00:55:15.700 they've

00:55:15.920 done

00:55:16.100 that

00:55:16.320 they may

00:55:16.780 then

00:55:17.120 under

00:55:17.460 their

00:55:17.660 own

00:55:17.860 control

00:55:18.420 make

00:55:19.500 a

00:55:19.640 change

00:55:20.000 to

00:55:20.180 the

00:55:20.320 system

00:55:20.740 so

00:55:21.360 it's

00:55:21.500 not

00:55:21.640 that

00:55:21.820 they're

00:55:22.200 averse

00:55:22.780 to

00:55:23.360 all

00:55:23.620 change

00:55:24.180 but

00:55:24.360 they want

00:55:24.740 change

00:55:25.140 to be

00:55:25.460 under

00:55:25.640 their

00:55:28.040 challenging

00:55:28.580 for

00:55:28.940 autistic

00:55:29.300 kids

00:55:29.740 or

00:55:29.920 for

00:55:30.100 a

00:55:30.500 systemizer

00:55:31.140 a

00:55:31.420 strong

00:55:31.740 systemizer

00:55:32.500 is

00:55:33.900 in the

00:55:34.520 social

00:55:34.840 world

00:55:35.360 in the

00:55:36.340 playground

00:55:36.680 for example

00:55:37.400 you've got

00:55:38.500 kids running

00:55:39.120 around

00:55:39.500 you've got

00:55:40.140 lots of

00:55:40.820 people

00:55:41.500 talking to

00:55:42.100 you at

00:55:42.340 once

00:55:42.760 some of

00:55:44.540 the verbal

00:55:44.940 communication

00:55:45.660 may not

00:55:46.140 be literal

00:55:46.760 so you're

00:55:47.620 trying to

00:55:47.960 track the

00:55:48.500 meaning of

00:55:49.000 words

00:55:49.380 when

00:55:49.800 someone's

00:55:50.700 using

00:55:50.940 sarcasm

00:55:51.680 or using

00:55:52.640 metaphor

00:55:53.080 or other

00:55:54.120 kinds of

00:55:54.540 figurative

00:55:55.040 language

00:55:55.600 you've

00:55:56.920 got

00:55:57.120 not just

00:55:57.980 focusing

00:55:58.420 one-to-one

00:55:59.240 like in

00:56:00.300 our

00:56:00.480 conversation

00:56:01.040 it's a

00:56:01.920 little bit

00:56:02.300 easier

00:56:02.620 because it's

00:56:03.040 one-to-one

00:56:03.720 but imagine

00:56:04.680 if we were

00:56:05.140 in the

00:56:05.400 pub and there

00:56:05.900 are six

00:56:06.240 people talking

00:56:06.960 at once

00:56:07.540 and you're

00:56:08.220 trying to

00:56:08.520 keep track

00:56:09.160 of what

00:56:10.080 does one

00:56:10.480 person

00:56:10.900 think about

00:56:12.000 what someone

00:56:12.600 else has

00:56:13.020 just said

00:56:13.560 or what

00:56:14.080 someone else

00:56:14.680 is thinking

00:56:15.220 so it's

00:56:15.940 these multiple

00:56:16.480 levels of

00:56:17.260 employing a

00:56:18.400 theory of

00:56:18.840 mind in

00:56:19.280 real time

00:56:20.000 and being

00:56:20.920 expected to

00:56:21.640 react with

00:56:22.700 a socially

00:56:23.220 appropriate

00:56:23.840 response

00:56:25.060 all of

00:56:25.980 that is

00:56:26.320 too many

00:56:26.760 moving

00:56:27.140 parts

00:56:27.760 whereas

00:56:29.020 taking apart

00:56:30.480 a transistor

00:56:31.180 radio and

00:56:31.940 putting it

00:56:32.300 back together

00:56:32.800 again

00:56:33.260 or taking

00:56:34.780 apart

00:56:35.260 I'm going

00:56:35.680 to use

00:56:36.000 kind of

00:56:36.420 a nice

00:56:37.600 domestic

00:56:38.060 example

00:56:38.680 imagine a

00:56:39.760 three-year-old

00:56:40.340 child who

00:56:40.840 takes the

00:56:41.660 toaster

00:56:42.160 in the

00:56:43.360 kitchen

00:56:43.780 takes it

00:56:44.960 apart

00:56:45.420 to understand

00:56:46.660 what is it

00:56:47.860 what happens

00:56:48.960 inside when I

00:56:49.780 push the

00:56:50.240 lever down

00:56:50.900 and when the

00:56:51.900 lever comes up

00:56:52.700 and the toast

00:56:53.240 pops out

00:56:53.980 that's a

00:56:56.520 child who's

00:56:57.060 going to be

00:56:57.340 a future

00:56:57.820 engineer

00:56:58.420 a future

00:56:59.240 systemizer

00:56:59.980 and I

00:57:01.080 think for

00:57:01.460 a long

00:57:01.780 time

00:57:02.320 because I've

00:57:03.520 been working

00:57:04.000 in the

00:57:04.280 field of

00:57:04.620 autism

00:57:04.960 for 40

00:57:05.740 years

00:57:06.220 in the

00:57:07.900 bad old

00:57:08.380 days

00:57:08.760 we would

00:57:09.620 have tried

00:57:09.980 to discourage

00:57:11.000 autistic kids

00:57:12.600 and autistic

00:57:13.520 people

00:57:13.960 from their

00:57:15.020 repetitive

00:57:15.620 behavior

00:57:19.040 sometimes called

00:57:19.800 obsessional

00:57:20.400 behavior

00:57:20.900 we thought

00:57:22.020 that was

00:57:22.340 bad for

00:57:22.960 them

00:57:23.220 because they're

00:57:23.840 never going

00:57:24.160 to learn

00:57:24.460 about the

00:57:24.940 real world

00:57:25.440 if all

00:57:25.820 they do

00:57:26.320 for hours

00:57:27.340 and hours

00:57:27.760 is take

00:57:28.440 the toaster

00:57:28.980 apart and

00:57:29.560 put it

00:57:29.820 back together

00:57:30.360 again

00:57:30.800 but actually

00:57:32.040 that's their

00:57:32.600 learning style

00:57:33.420 for many

00:57:33.880 autistic kids

00:57:34.720 and if we

00:57:35.740 see that

00:57:36.580 not as a

00:57:37.400 bad thing

00:57:37.800 but as a

00:57:38.220 good thing

00:57:38.780 they take a

00:57:41.140 1000 piece

00:57:42.080 jigsaw puzzle

00:57:42.900 and they

00:57:44.260 want to put

00:57:45.100 it together

00:57:45.520 again in a

00:57:46.280 complete way

00:57:46.940 to understand

00:57:47.600 how every

00:57:48.240 piece fits

00:57:49.560 into the

00:57:50.000 whole

00:57:50.280 you hear of

00:57:51.380 these anecdotes

00:57:52.100 of autistic

00:57:52.560 kids who

00:57:53.120 can do

00:57:53.460 that

00:57:53.800 maybe not

00:57:54.880 even using

00:57:55.580 the picture

00:57:57.020 on the

00:57:58.300 right side

00:57:59.580 of the

00:57:59.980 jigsaw puzzle

00:58:00.720 they can do

00:58:01.640 it face

00:58:02.080 down

00:58:02.420 so they're

00:58:02.840 using the

00:58:03.280 shape

00:58:03.660 and understanding

00:58:04.880 how every

00:58:05.860 shape

00:58:06.380 locks in

00:58:08.140 a unique

00:58:08.660 way

00:58:09.140 with every

00:58:09.740 other

00:58:09.940 shape

00:58:10.360 but they

00:58:10.940 can do

00:58:11.180 this very

00:58:11.520 rapidly

00:58:12.000 so it's

00:58:12.520 kind of

00:58:12.860 we should

00:58:13.720 focus on

00:58:14.400 the strengths

00:58:15.660 of autistic

00:58:16.200 people

00:58:16.740 and you

00:58:18.740 know that

00:58:19.060 that could

00:58:19.800 then become

00:58:20.400 their stepping

00:58:21.040 stone

00:58:21.500 into flourishing

00:58:22.980 in education

00:58:23.740 and flourishing

00:58:25.200 in the place

00:58:25.820 of work

00:58:26.360 but if we're

00:58:27.560 expecting all

00:58:28.680 kids

00:58:29.160 to be

00:58:30.280 hyper social

00:58:31.600 you know

00:58:33.020 checking each

00:58:33.640 other's faces

00:58:34.260 checking each

00:58:35.040 other's

00:58:35.760 relationships

00:58:36.420 and body

00:58:37.760 language

00:58:38.220 and reading

00:58:38.700 between the

00:58:39.260 lines

00:58:39.600 picking up

00:58:40.240 hints

00:58:40.700 you know

00:58:41.520 autistic

00:58:41.940 kids

00:58:42.560 may feel

00:58:43.060 they may

00:58:44.920 appear to

00:58:45.980 be struggling

00:58:47.100 whereas if we

00:58:48.740 focus on

00:58:49.460 their

00:58:49.960 you know

00:58:51.080 their strengths

00:58:51.860 we can say

00:58:53.020 well this kid's

00:58:53.600 got a gift

00:58:54.240 you know

00:58:55.180 let's not worry

00:58:55.880 about whether

00:58:56.960 the child is

00:58:57.600 making eye

00:58:58.200 contact or not

00:58:59.160 you know

00:59:00.480 let's just let

00:59:01.160 the child

00:59:01.560 learn in their

00:59:02.160 own way

00:59:02.700 and see how

00:59:03.800 far they can

00:59:04.280 go

00:59:04.540 and you know

00:59:05.800 parents who

00:59:06.600 recognize their

00:59:07.580 child's autism

00:59:09.120 is neurodivergence

00:59:12.500 you know

00:59:13.660 that we don't

00:59:15.020 have to expect

00:59:16.220 all kids

00:59:16.920 to learn the

00:59:17.600 same way

00:59:18.100 to process

00:59:18.960 information in

00:59:19.760 the same way

00:59:20.260 just let the

00:59:21.180 kid follow

00:59:21.700 what they're

00:59:22.100 interested in

00:59:22.960 you know

00:59:24.020 those kids

00:59:24.780 might decide

00:59:25.300 I want to

00:59:25.680 do mathematics

00:59:26.280 all day

00:59:27.080 and sure

00:59:28.380 enough

00:59:28.600 they end up

00:59:29.640 in university

00:59:30.240 and they're

00:59:31.880 on you know

00:59:32.540 they're on

00:59:33.620 the fast track

00:59:34.940 into advanced

00:59:36.840 mathematics

00:59:37.400 even if

00:59:38.760 along the way

00:59:39.520 they haven't

00:59:40.740 really managed

00:59:41.280 to learn

00:59:41.660 how to write

00:59:42.200 an essay

00:59:42.680 with a beginning

00:59:43.740 a middle

00:59:44.300 and an end

00:59:44.920 which communicates

00:59:45.960 to a reader

00:59:46.540 because that's

00:59:47.460 not their

00:59:48.540 interest

00:59:49.020 their interest

00:59:49.620 is how

00:59:50.020 numbers fit

00:59:50.760 together

00:59:51.160 just like

00:59:52.140 how pieces

00:59:53.520 of the jigsaw

00:59:54.280 fit together

00:59:55.000 let's talk

00:59:57.600 about the

00:59:58.140 relationship

00:59:58.780 between

00:59:59.480 this

01:00:01.880 hyper

01:00:03.880 focus

01:00:04.380 on

01:00:04.860 tool

01:00:06.220 use

01:00:06.660 and

01:00:06.900 systemizing

01:00:07.680 as opposed

01:00:08.880 to

01:00:09.300 functioning

01:00:09.860 in the

01:00:10.600 social

01:00:11.080 world

01:00:11.560 and

01:00:12.700 sex

01:00:13.340 differences

01:00:13.860 and

01:00:14.580 also

01:00:15.420 the

01:00:15.880 consequences

01:00:16.860 of that

01:00:17.340 in the

01:00:17.600 education

01:00:18.040 system

01:00:18.480 so

01:00:18.680 and

01:00:19.240 I want

01:00:19.700 to add

01:00:19.940 another

01:00:20.240 dimension

01:00:20.680 too

01:00:21.000 just

01:00:22.780 before

01:00:23.100 I stopped

01:00:23.680 being a

01:00:24.100 university

01:00:24.440 professor

01:00:24.900 I was

01:00:25.280 starting

01:00:25.540 to take

01:00:25.940 a look

01:00:26.240 at the

01:00:26.580 relationship

01:00:27.100 between

01:00:27.720 your

01:00:28.440 scales

01:00:29.080 systemizing

01:00:30.260 and empathizing

01:00:31.140 and the

01:00:31.720 big five

01:00:32.160 personality

01:00:32.720 dimensions

01:00:33.260 because

01:00:33.860 empathizing

01:00:35.120 sounds an

01:00:35.740 awful lot

01:00:36.520 like

01:00:36.920 agreeableness

01:00:38.000 right at

01:00:39.120 a trait

01:00:39.580 level

01:00:39.860 and I'm

01:00:40.160 wondering

01:00:40.480 if

01:00:41.260 I should

01:00:42.820 know this

01:00:43.240 but I

01:00:43.560 don't

01:00:43.900 if there's

01:00:44.400 been some

01:00:45.160 well

01:00:47.220 well

01:00:47.240 conducted

01:00:47.760 research

01:00:48.420 assessing

01:00:49.220 the

01:00:49.600 relationship

01:00:50.180 between

01:00:50.760 these

01:00:51.640 interest

01:00:52.160 patterns

01:00:52.820 I mean

01:00:53.680 there

01:00:54.120 are

01:00:54.580 studies

01:00:55.700 of

01:00:55.960 interest

01:00:56.280 patterns

01:00:56.660 as well

01:00:57.060 the

01:00:57.240 Ryasek

01:00:57.800 model

01:00:58.140 I can't

01:00:58.500 remember

01:00:58.760 who

01:00:58.920 developed

01:00:59.260 that

01:00:59.620 I mean

01:01:00.180 there is

01:01:00.740 a taxonomy

01:01:02.620 of

01:01:02.900 interests

01:01:03.420 right

01:01:03.860 that's

01:01:04.320 been

01:01:04.540 quite

01:01:05.420 well

01:01:06.080 documented

01:01:06.660 but I

01:01:07.840 was curious

01:01:08.320 about it

01:01:08.740 temperamentally

01:01:09.340 so

01:01:09.580 let's

01:01:10.140 talk about

01:01:10.600 sex

01:01:11.000 differences

01:01:11.540 the

01:01:11.940 implications

01:01:12.500 of that

01:01:12.960 in

01:01:13.080 education

01:01:13.640 and

01:01:14.140 yeah

01:01:14.840 and then

01:01:15.300 the

01:01:15.520 temperamental

01:01:15.980 issue

01:01:16.400 sure

01:01:17.000 so

01:01:17.680 I should

01:01:18.800 have

01:01:19.000 really

01:01:19.440 responded

01:01:19.920 to your

01:01:20.260 question

01:01:20.580 about

01:01:20.920 sex

01:01:21.320 or

01:01:21.480 gender

01:01:21.760 differences

01:01:22.280 earlier

01:01:22.760 but let's

01:01:23.480 bite the

01:01:24.560 bullet

01:01:24.840 so

01:01:27.180 we found

01:01:29.040 over many

01:01:29.600 years

01:01:29.980 actually

01:01:30.360 that

01:01:31.480 in

01:01:32.500 the

01:01:33.360 general

01:01:33.820 population

01:01:34.660 that's

01:01:36.180 to say

01:01:36.440 the

01:01:36.600 non-autistic

01:01:37.380 population

01:01:38.100 there are

01:01:39.240 these

01:01:39.520 on average

01:01:40.340 sex

01:01:41.480 or gender

01:01:41.980 differences

01:01:42.520 both in

01:01:43.160 empathy

01:01:43.640 and in

01:01:44.900 systemizing

01:01:45.600 so what

01:01:46.920 we find

01:01:47.480 in small

01:01:48.660 scale

01:01:48.980 studies

01:01:49.520 is that

01:01:51.160 girls and

01:01:52.100 women

01:01:52.380 on average

01:01:53.280 score higher

01:01:54.400 on tests

01:01:55.700 of empathy

01:01:56.660 and on

01:01:57.440 measures of

01:01:58.800 empathy

01:01:59.220 and boys

01:02:01.060 and men

01:02:01.880 on average

01:02:02.780 score higher

01:02:04.200 on tests

01:02:04.720 of systemizing

01:02:05.640 and measures

01:02:06.660 of systemizing

01:02:07.580 I say

01:02:08.660 small scale

01:02:09.400 because back

01:02:10.060 in the

01:02:10.360 day

01:02:10.660 we would

01:02:11.520 be testing

01:02:12.020 a few

01:02:12.360 hundred

01:02:12.600 people

01:02:13.120 but now

01:02:14.020 you can

01:02:14.320 do online

01:02:15.000 research

01:02:15.440 you can

01:02:15.960 really do

01:02:16.560 research

01:02:17.040 at scale

01:02:17.620 so we

01:02:18.560 published a

01:02:19.140 study back

01:02:19.660 in 2018

01:02:20.460 which was

01:02:22.440 600,000

01:02:23.660 people

01:02:24.200 taking

01:02:25.460 the empathy

01:02:26.700 quotient

01:02:27.440 the EQ

01:02:28.840 and the

01:02:30.120 systemizing

01:02:31.060 quotient

01:02:31.660 the SQ

01:02:32.400 they did it

01:02:33.700 online

01:02:34.120 so that's how

01:02:34.800 we could achieve

01:02:35.440 such large

01:02:36.100 sample sizes

01:02:36.980 and we

01:02:37.860 found

01:02:38.220 sure enough

01:02:39.040 replicating

01:02:39.780 the smaller

01:02:40.360 studies

01:02:40.900 that women

01:02:42.320 on average

01:02:43.080 score higher

01:02:44.200 on the EQ

01:02:45.260 and men

01:02:46.520 on average

01:02:47.180 score higher

01:02:47.760 on the SQ

01:02:48.620 how big a

01:02:49.600 difference is it

01:02:50.340 in standard

01:02:51.320 deviation terms

01:02:52.260 approximately

01:02:53.520 it's a great

01:02:54.420 question

01:02:54.820 it's a significant

01:02:56.140 difference

01:02:56.620 I'd need to look

01:02:57.420 up the

01:02:58.040 effect size

01:02:59.220 and I could

01:02:59.780 you know

01:03:00.260 contact you

01:03:01.000 after the

01:03:01.640 conversation

01:03:02.580 but it's a

01:03:03.940 significant

01:03:04.340 difference

01:03:04.900 especially

01:03:05.460 when you

01:03:05.840 have these

01:03:06.160 large

01:03:06.480 samples

01:03:07.040 you know

01:03:08.060 they jump

01:03:09.460 out at you

01:03:10.080 they were

01:03:10.860 robust

01:03:11.420 gender

01:03:12.360 differences

01:03:12.920 we've also

01:03:14.660 used

01:03:15.480 a performance

01:03:16.880 test of empathy

01:03:17.900 called the

01:03:18.400 eyes test

01:03:19.300 it's also

01:03:20.600 called the

01:03:21.060 reading the

01:03:22.060 mind in the

01:03:22.660 eyes test

01:03:23.280 where you

01:03:23.540 look at

01:03:23.920 photographs

01:03:24.360 of people's

01:03:25.180 eyes

01:03:25.500 and the

01:03:27.120 test is

01:03:27.580 whether you

01:03:27.980 can infer

01:03:28.880 what someone

01:03:29.980 might be

01:03:30.380 thinking or

01:03:31.000 feeling

01:03:31.260 just from

01:03:31.880 looking at

01:03:32.420 the emotional

01:03:33.620 expression

01:03:34.160 around the

01:03:34.680 eyes

01:03:35.060 so that's

01:03:36.780 a gestalt

01:03:37.640 it's a

01:03:39.200 gestalt

01:03:39.720 yeah

01:03:40.220 I mean

01:03:40.740 it is

01:03:41.400 it's a

01:03:41.840 if you

01:03:42.320 imagine

01:03:42.880 like a

01:03:43.300 letterbox

01:03:43.960 you've only

01:03:44.760 got this

01:03:45.140 much

01:03:45.400 information

01:03:46.040 but it

01:03:46.820 turns out

01:03:47.220 to be

01:03:47.460 very rich

01:03:48.220 in

01:03:48.500 information

01:03:49.060 about

01:03:49.440 another

01:03:49.740 person's

01:03:50.320 state

01:03:50.580 of mind

01:03:51.060 and women

01:03:51.980 on average

01:03:53.100 score higher

01:03:54.680 on the

01:03:55.280 it's called

01:03:55.640 the reading

01:03:56.060 the mind

01:03:56.580 in the

01:03:56.920 eyes

01:03:57.220 test

01:03:57.720 compared

01:03:58.540 to men

01:03:59.500 and just

01:04:00.640 a few

01:04:01.320 years ago

01:04:01.820 2022

01:04:02.340 we published

01:04:03.820 a study

01:04:04.240 showing

01:04:04.720 across 57

01:04:06.280 different

01:04:06.880 countries

01:04:07.460 so this

01:04:08.460 was kind

01:04:09.000 of independent

01:04:10.060 of culture

01:04:11.020 you see

01:04:12.240 this female

01:04:13.460 excuse me

01:04:15.040 female superiority

01:04:16.360 on the test

01:04:18.180 are there tests

01:04:19.420 that are that

01:04:19.960 straightforward

01:04:20.620 on the

01:04:21.940 systemizing

01:04:22.600 side that

01:04:23.400 show the

01:04:23.900 male advantage

01:04:24.740 there are

01:04:25.860 I mean

01:04:26.300 one quite

01:04:27.180 old one

01:04:27.600 which you

01:04:28.000 may remember

01:04:28.680 is called

01:04:29.680 the embedded

01:04:30.220 figures test

01:04:31.260 where you

01:04:32.200 have to

01:04:32.560 find a

01:04:33.220 target

01:04:33.620 as quickly

01:04:34.720 as you

01:04:35.120 can

01:04:35.520 that's

01:04:36.540 embedded

01:04:36.940 in a

01:04:37.380 larger

01:04:37.700 design

01:04:38.380 and men

01:04:39.480 are faster

01:04:40.060 and more

01:04:40.520 accurate

01:04:40.900 in finding

01:04:41.520 the part

01:04:42.120 within the

01:04:42.660 whole

01:04:42.920 so that

01:04:43.820 might be

01:04:44.460 a systemizing

01:04:45.660 test

01:04:46.620 we've

01:04:49.080 just completed

01:04:49.980 the development

01:04:51.080 of another

01:04:51.540 test which

01:04:52.140 is more

01:04:52.960 about

01:04:53.220 mechanical

01:04:53.780 reasoning

01:04:54.480 asking

01:04:55.600 people

01:04:57.340 whether

01:04:58.220 a lever

01:04:58.700 will move

01:04:59.220 up or

01:04:59.580 down

01:04:59.860 depending

01:05:00.240 on

01:05:00.580 the cog

01:05:01.560 wheels

01:05:01.860 that are

01:05:02.160 moving

01:05:02.440 in different

01:05:02.880 directions

01:05:03.420 so you're

01:05:04.140 having to

01:05:04.520 kind of

01:05:04.840 it's kind

01:05:05.780 of like

01:05:06.020 looking inside

01:05:06.800 an old

01:05:07.180 fashioned

01:05:07.540 watch

01:05:08.020 to understand

01:05:08.800 the drivers

01:05:10.040 the cog

01:05:11.460 wheels

01:05:11.780 driving

01:05:12.300 movements

01:05:13.020 of levers

01:05:13.560 and males

01:05:15.040 perform faster

01:05:16.340 and more

01:05:17.160 you know

01:05:17.780 higher

01:05:18.080 they score

01:05:19.540 higher

01:05:19.940 on average

01:05:21.060 on that

01:05:21.480 test

01:05:21.860 so

01:05:22.860 these are

01:05:23.860 controversial

01:05:24.280 areas

01:05:24.940 as you

01:05:25.260 know

01:05:25.540 because

01:05:26.200 you know

01:05:27.300 the field

01:05:28.080 of sex

01:05:28.640 difference

01:05:29.080 research

01:05:29.800 or gender

01:05:30.560 differences

01:05:31.000 research

01:05:31.680 understandably

01:05:33.500 gets a lot

01:05:34.020 of pushback

01:05:34.800 you know

01:05:36.040 we all

01:05:36.760 want a

01:05:37.540 society

01:05:38.120 which is

01:05:39.720 where there

01:05:40.780 is gender

01:05:41.240 equality

01:05:41.840 but that's

01:05:43.580 more about

01:05:43.980 our social

01:05:44.580 values

01:05:45.220 it's not

01:05:46.480 necessarily

01:05:47.060 a scientific

01:05:47.840 question

01:05:48.520 about whether

01:05:49.780 male and

01:05:50.940 female

01:05:51.420 children

01:05:52.840 and adults

01:05:54.440 whether their

01:05:54.980 minds work

01:05:55.780 in the same

01:05:56.700 way

01:05:57.020 on average

01:05:57.800 and I keep

01:05:59.020 using those

01:05:59.560 two words

01:06:00.280 on average

01:06:01.020 because

01:06:01.520 the best

01:06:02.520 we can do

01:06:03.000 as scientists

01:06:03.540 is compare

01:06:04.440 groups of

01:06:05.240 females

01:06:05.920 and groups

01:06:06.540 of males

01:06:07.020 on these

01:06:08.020 different

01:06:08.320 measures

01:06:08.660 and see

01:06:09.620 if we

01:06:09.840 find a

01:06:10.240 difference

01:06:10.720 in the

01:06:11.500 temperament

01:06:12.020 literature

01:06:12.500 the differences

01:06:14.420 in agreeableness

01:06:15.960 which I think

01:06:17.440 are most

01:06:17.940 closely related

01:06:18.740 to empathizing

01:06:19.600 they maximize

01:06:23.200 in gender

01:06:23.960 neutral societies

01:06:24.980 they don't

01:06:25.520 minimize

01:06:25.900 right

01:06:26.420 so

01:06:27.220 yeah

01:06:28.500 so in

01:06:28.940 this

01:06:29.080 this is

01:06:30.140 not

01:06:30.700 controversial

01:06:32.340 research

01:06:32.980 from the

01:06:33.540 technical

01:06:33.880 perspective

01:06:34.420 because it's

01:06:35.040 been unbelievably

01:06:36.000 well established

01:06:37.080 so you can

01:06:38.500 rank order

01:06:39.100 countries

01:06:39.620 by the

01:06:40.100 degree

01:06:40.360 to which

01:06:40.800 they've

01:06:41.280 implemented

01:06:42.340 sexual

01:06:44.660 say

01:06:45.420 parity

01:06:45.980 in the

01:06:46.700 law

01:06:47.120 and in

01:06:47.740 society

01:06:48.220 on sexual

01:06:48.920 grounds

01:06:49.400 and then

01:06:49.740 you can

01:06:50.020 look at

01:06:50.320 the

01:06:50.440 differences

01:06:50.880 in magnitude

01:06:51.620 of temperament

01:06:52.400 differences

01:06:52.860 between men

01:06:53.480 and women

01:06:53.840 and what

01:06:54.200 you find

01:06:54.680 is clearly

01:06:56.400 the case

01:06:57.020 that

01:06:57.360 well for

01:06:58.300 example

01:06:58.700 differences

01:06:59.240 in agreeableness

01:07:00.060 and neuroticism

01:07:00.920 are maximized

01:07:01.700 in the

01:07:02.000 Scandinavian

01:07:02.580 countries

01:07:03.100 so if

01:07:03.880 you flatten

01:07:04.480 out the

01:07:04.980 environmental

01:07:05.420 variation

01:07:06.060 you seem

01:07:06.600 to maximize

01:07:07.180 the genetic

01:07:07.840 variation

01:07:08.380 and I'm

01:07:09.180 curious

01:07:09.640 with regards

01:07:10.580 to

01:07:10.920 empathizing

01:07:11.820 and systemizing

01:07:13.280 if you

01:07:14.640 rank

01:07:14.980 ordered

01:07:15.320 if you

01:07:16.060 did the

01:07:16.400 same

01:07:16.620 analysis

01:07:17.140 do you

01:07:18.580 know

01:07:18.860 if there's

01:07:19.380 any

01:07:19.580 evidence

01:07:20.020 that

01:07:20.320 it's a

01:07:20.900 great

01:07:21.120 question

01:07:21.540 I haven't

01:07:22.020 seen any

01:07:22.420 research

01:07:22.780 on it

01:07:23.360 but first

01:07:24.680 of all

01:07:24.960 going back

01:07:25.960 to your

01:07:26.320 question

01:07:26.740 about

01:07:27.060 is empathy

01:07:28.380 closest

01:07:29.160 to

01:07:30.100 agreeableness

01:07:30.880 if we think

01:07:31.600 about the

01:07:32.260 big five

01:07:33.240 personality

01:07:33.880 dimensions

01:07:34.720 that makes

01:07:35.940 sense to me

01:07:36.700 and there may be

01:07:37.500 some data

01:07:37.980 out there

01:07:38.520 that confirms

01:07:39.760 a correlation

01:07:40.580 but agreeableness

01:07:42.400 I would say

01:07:43.140 and you know

01:07:43.720 you're the

01:07:44.120 personality

01:07:44.740 psychologist

01:07:46.020 here between

01:07:46.740 the two of us

01:07:47.640 so you tell me

01:07:48.700 but you know

01:07:49.580 agreeableness

01:07:50.180 to me

01:07:50.900 involves

01:07:52.040 keeping track

01:07:53.160 of how someone

01:07:54.080 else is feeling

01:07:54.820 and what they

01:07:55.260 might be thinking

01:07:55.980 you and I

01:07:57.100 are having a

01:07:57.580 very polite

01:07:58.180 conversation

01:07:58.900 so we're being

01:07:59.980 very agreeable

01:08:00.920 probably because

01:08:02.240 we don't want

01:08:03.260 to insult

01:08:04.680 each other

01:08:05.480 we don't want

01:08:05.980 to hurt

01:08:06.420 each other's

01:08:07.260 feelings

01:08:07.640 so we're

01:08:09.220 kind of

01:08:09.900 exercising

01:08:10.560 our agreeableness

01:08:11.500 but that is

01:08:12.200 really

01:08:12.580 what I was

01:08:13.600 calling empathy

01:08:14.380 earlier on

01:08:15.680 you know

01:08:16.080 if you don't

01:08:16.900 care about

01:08:17.560 you know

01:08:18.240 the other

01:08:18.640 person's feelings

01:08:19.600 you can be

01:08:20.720 as rude

01:08:21.080 as you like

01:08:21.660 you know

01:08:22.460 driving your

01:08:23.200 point home

01:08:23.760 in a debate

01:08:24.460 you could

01:08:26.100 be very blunt

01:08:27.460 you could

01:08:28.840 you know

01:08:29.360 you could be

01:08:29.700 very direct

01:08:30.340 you could be

01:08:30.840 very

01:08:31.700 yeah

01:08:32.940 insulting

01:08:33.480 there's all

01:08:34.120 kinds of

01:08:34.840 you know

01:08:35.420 different ways

01:08:36.680 that you could

01:08:37.100 use language

01:08:37.820 which would

01:08:38.760 not be

01:08:39.140 agreeable

01:08:39.760 even if

01:08:40.940 you're making

01:08:41.940 a very

01:08:42.280 logical

01:08:42.720 point

01:08:43.300 so you

01:08:45.200 know

01:08:45.280 I think

01:08:45.580 I'd agree

01:08:45.940 with you

01:08:46.420 on that

01:08:47.260 kind of

01:08:47.680 overlap

01:08:48.360 between these

01:08:49.400 dimensions

01:08:50.220 of individual

01:08:50.940 differences

01:08:51.520 well the

01:08:52.340 the more

01:08:53.280 the most

01:08:54.180 relevant

01:08:54.680 element

01:08:55.160 of that

01:08:55.560 I would

01:08:55.900 say

01:08:56.220 is not

01:08:56.980 so much

01:08:57.500 the somewhat

01:08:58.900 obvious

01:08:59.560 point

01:09:00.040 that

01:09:00.480 agreeableness

01:09:01.680 and empathizing

01:09:02.580 might be

01:09:03.000 associated

01:09:03.480 I would

01:09:04.040 say

01:09:04.320 what's

01:09:04.660 more

01:09:04.900 interesting

01:09:05.400 from a

01:09:06.100 scientific

01:09:06.440 and social

01:09:07.100 perspective

01:09:07.720 is whether

01:09:08.840 low agreeableness

01:09:10.360 is associated

01:09:11.360 with systemizing

01:09:12.500 because one

01:09:13.660 of the things

01:09:14.140 that's peculiar

01:09:14.900 about the

01:09:15.780 personality

01:09:16.380 and psychopathology

01:09:17.520 research

01:09:17.880 is that

01:09:18.460 there's a

01:09:19.640 tremendous

01:09:20.100 number

01:09:20.620 of positive

01:09:21.560 trait

01:09:22.940 names

01:09:25.140 and identifiers

01:09:26.340 on the

01:09:27.240 empathizing

01:09:27.920 side

01:09:28.360 on the

01:09:29.020 agreeable

01:09:29.420 side

01:09:29.680 but there's

01:09:30.060 very little

01:09:30.660 positive

01:09:31.180 about the

01:09:31.800 disagreeable

01:09:32.480 side

01:09:32.900 and that's

01:09:33.720 a big

01:09:33.980 mistake

01:09:34.460 because it's

01:09:35.340 a normal

01:09:35.680 distribution

01:09:36.140 for a reason

01:09:37.080 and there's

01:09:37.520 just as many

01:09:38.200 reasons to be

01:09:38.920 disagreeable

01:09:39.580 as there are

01:09:40.140 to be

01:09:40.380 agreeable

01:09:40.860 the question

01:09:41.860 is

01:09:42.280 like

01:09:43.080 and you know

01:09:44.020 this is a

01:09:44.640 comic trope

01:09:45.640 with regard

01:09:46.260 to engineers

01:09:46.940 because

01:09:47.440 they tend

01:09:48.580 to be

01:09:49.540 somewhat

01:09:50.300 parodied

01:09:51.680 as blunt

01:09:52.460 and disagreeable

01:09:53.660 in their

01:09:54.420 prioritization

01:09:55.540 of systemizing

01:09:56.720 over empathizing

01:09:57.980 do you ever

01:09:58.540 watch the

01:09:59.120 big bang

01:09:59.780 theory

01:10:00.380 yes

01:10:01.700 well so

01:10:02.600 so I mean

01:10:03.320 all of the

01:10:04.220 humor in the

01:10:04.800 big bang

01:10:05.260 theory is

01:10:06.060 systemizing

01:10:07.420 over empathizing

01:10:08.540 yeah

01:10:08.840 pretty much

01:10:09.540 and yeah

01:10:10.080 and that

01:10:10.640 that character

01:10:11.380 what's the name

01:10:12.560 of the main

01:10:13.840 character in the

01:10:14.520 big bang

01:10:14.940 theory

01:10:15.380 the fit

01:10:15.940 yeah the

01:10:16.740 the gangly

01:10:17.360 physicist

01:10:17.840 is it

01:10:19.860 steven

01:10:20.720 simon

01:10:21.300 no

01:10:21.840 neither

01:10:22.300 neither of

01:10:22.900 those

01:10:23.100 it'll come

01:10:23.620 back to

01:10:24.000 both of us

01:10:24.480 in a second

01:10:24.960 but you know

01:10:25.920 some people

01:10:26.740 are you know

01:10:27.520 wonder whether

01:10:28.180 he's he's

01:10:29.940 playing playing

01:10:30.880 the role of

01:10:31.600 an autistic

01:10:32.060 person

01:10:32.680 you know

01:10:33.700 because he's

01:10:34.240 he's fascinated

01:10:34.880 by science

01:10:35.780 and the world

01:10:36.320 of systems

01:10:37.280 and technology

01:10:38.080 you know

01:10:39.840 but he may

01:10:40.360 not be

01:10:40.940 paying

01:10:41.500 equal attention

01:10:42.880 to other

01:10:43.800 people's

01:10:44.240 feelings

01:10:44.580 in the

01:10:45.100 room

01:10:45.340 you know

01:10:46.520 we have

01:10:47.040 this phrase

01:10:47.540 you know

01:10:47.860 read the

01:10:48.400 room

01:10:48.720 you know

01:10:49.900 autistic

01:10:50.340 autistic people

01:10:51.440 and maybe

01:10:52.180 you know

01:10:53.240 some engineers

01:10:54.360 may be less

01:10:56.160 focused on

01:10:56.900 reading the

01:10:57.600 room

01:10:57.780 because they're

01:10:58.340 focused on

01:10:58.840 understanding

01:10:59.380 the system

01:10:59.920 and making

01:11:00.320 sure it's

01:11:00.740 working

01:11:01.180 you know

01:11:02.160 right now

01:11:02.640 you and I

01:11:03.260 are surrounded

01:11:04.020 by mechanics

01:11:05.420 and engineers

01:11:06.120 making sure

01:11:06.800 that the cameras

01:11:07.600 are working

01:11:08.060 fine

01:11:08.520 the sound

01:11:09.420 systems

01:11:09.860 are working

01:11:10.300 fine

01:11:10.720 and that's

01:11:11.500 their job

01:11:12.020 you know

01:11:12.260 that's

01:11:12.600 their talent

01:11:13.460 and they

01:11:15.640 may be

01:11:16.000 kind of

01:11:16.860 less

01:11:17.280 you know

01:11:18.160 focused on

01:11:19.120 are we

01:11:20.040 both comfortable

01:11:21.400 or are we

01:11:22.500 communicating

01:11:23.500 are we on

01:11:24.160 the same

01:11:24.440 topic

01:11:24.960 you know

01:11:26.020 they're more

01:11:26.860 kind of

01:11:27.280 focusing on

01:11:27.960 the engineering

01:11:29.280 of our

01:11:30.040 interaction

01:11:30.760 or of

01:11:31.380 the situation

01:11:33.320 but coming

01:11:34.640 back to

01:11:35.100 gender

01:11:35.560 just because

01:11:36.160 I know

01:11:36.460 that you

01:11:36.940 know

01:11:37.000 this is

01:11:37.340 again a

01:11:37.980 topic of

01:11:38.660 mutual

01:11:39.480 interest

01:11:40.140 the reason

01:11:42.320 I say

01:11:42.780 on average

01:11:43.600 gender

01:11:44.020 differences

01:11:44.520 is you

01:11:45.480 can find

01:11:46.000 individuals

01:11:46.720 who are

01:11:48.580 atypical

01:11:49.160 for their

01:11:49.620 gender

01:11:50.000 when we

01:11:50.760 do those

01:11:51.160 big studies

01:11:52.680 you know

01:11:54.020 we've

01:11:55.420 classified

01:11:56.020 the population

01:11:57.280 into people

01:11:57.980 who lean

01:11:59.160 more towards

01:11:59.980 empathy

01:12:00.740 than systemizing

01:12:01.860 or those

01:12:03.000 who lean

01:12:03.440 more towards

01:12:04.160 systemizing

01:12:04.880 than empathy

01:12:05.620 so those

01:12:06.820 are two

01:12:07.200 brain types

01:12:08.140 we call

01:12:08.500 them type

01:12:08.960 E

01:12:09.280 and type

01:12:10.060 S

01:12:10.480 and then

01:12:11.900 there are

01:12:12.140 people in

01:12:12.540 the middle

01:12:12.900 who are

01:12:14.460 kind of

01:12:14.840 equal in

01:12:15.800 their empathy

01:12:16.480 and their

01:12:17.140 systemizing

01:12:17.820 we call

01:12:18.260 them type

01:12:18.760 B

01:12:19.080 for balanced

01:12:19.900 and then

01:12:21.040 there are

01:12:21.320 people at

01:12:21.700 the extremes

01:12:22.340 people who

01:12:23.040 empathize

01:12:23.880 non-stop

01:12:25.220 but maybe

01:12:26.300 may find

01:12:27.100 systemizing

01:12:27.820 challenging

01:12:28.440 and vice

01:12:29.700 versa

01:12:30.100 people who

01:12:31.420 systemize

01:12:32.100 non-stop

01:12:32.720 and may find

01:12:33.460 empathy

01:12:34.160 challenging

01:12:35.220 and in

01:12:36.140 that big

01:12:36.500 online study

01:12:37.280 we had

01:12:37.860 36,000

01:12:39.500 autistic

01:12:39.920 people take

01:12:40.740 part

01:12:41.140 and they

01:12:42.460 tend to be

01:12:43.160 in the

01:12:43.480 type S

01:12:44.220 profile

01:12:45.180 so

01:12:47.420 leaning more

01:12:49.220 towards

01:12:49.540 systems

01:12:50.080 than

01:12:50.500 empathy

01:12:51.040 or even

01:12:52.160 in the

01:12:52.520 extreme

01:12:53.080 type S

01:12:54.100 where there's

01:12:55.700 a bigger

01:12:56.280 discrepancy

01:12:57.140 between their

01:12:57.780 systemizing

01:12:58.440 and their

01:12:58.840 empathy

01:12:59.320 but back

01:13:00.300 to gender

01:13:00.900 you know

01:13:01.780 you can

01:13:02.080 find

01:13:02.580 females

01:13:03.440 well

01:13:05.240 maybe I

01:13:06.160 should kind

01:13:06.520 of back

01:13:06.860 up a little

01:13:07.260 bit

01:13:07.580 what we

01:13:08.420 find is

01:13:09.000 that more

01:13:09.440 women

01:13:09.840 than men

01:13:10.600 are type

01:13:11.500 E

01:13:11.860 it's about

01:13:13.400 40% of

01:13:14.360 women

01:13:14.660 and 20%

01:13:16.660 of men

01:13:17.180 and more

01:13:18.180 men

01:13:18.660 are type

01:13:19.700 S

01:13:20.160 again it's

01:13:20.780 about 40%

01:13:21.780 of males

01:13:22.380 and 20%

01:13:23.720 of females

01:13:24.340 but this is

01:13:25.480 already kind

01:13:26.040 of telling

01:13:26.440 you that

01:13:27.000 this isn't

01:13:28.760 about gender

01:13:29.460 it's about

01:13:30.580 you know

01:13:30.980 because

01:13:31.380 you can't

01:13:32.680 you can't

01:13:33.700 prejudge

01:13:34.640 an individual

01:13:35.700 man or a

01:13:36.480 woman

01:13:36.720 just from

01:13:38.260 their gender

01:13:38.780 it's about

01:13:40.320 the type

01:13:40.820 of brain

01:13:41.280 that they

01:13:41.620 have

01:13:41.960 and so

01:13:43.440 kind of

01:13:43.880 bringing this

01:13:44.480 into

01:13:44.940 politics

01:13:46.040 if you like

01:13:46.800 it would

01:13:48.080 be wrong

01:13:49.040 to prejudge

01:13:50.620 a female

01:13:51.240 applicant

01:13:51.780 in a job

01:13:52.960 let's say

01:13:54.140 the job

01:13:54.500 is an

01:13:54.860 engineering

01:13:55.240 job

01:13:55.800 based on

01:13:57.720 her gender

01:13:58.280 or if

01:14:00.020 the job

01:14:00.420 was all

01:14:00.940 about

01:14:01.260 communication

01:14:01.740 skills

01:14:02.460 and empathy

01:14:03.180 maybe you're

01:14:04.340 being interviewed

01:14:04.900 to be

01:14:05.500 a good

01:14:07.320 psychotherapist

01:14:08.700 again it would

01:14:09.980 be wrong

01:14:10.400 to assume

01:14:10.960 that the

01:14:11.360 woman would

01:14:11.800 be the

01:14:12.860 better fit

01:14:13.420 for the

01:14:13.900 therapist

01:14:14.640 job

01:14:15.020 and the

01:14:15.300 man would

01:14:15.660 be the

01:14:15.960 better fit

01:14:16.500 for the

01:14:16.880 engineering

01:14:17.360 job

01:14:17.800 because it's

01:14:18.700 not about

01:14:19.120 your gender

01:14:19.640 it's about

01:14:20.220 what kind

01:14:20.660 of brain

01:14:21.080 you have

01:14:21.560 and

01:14:22.920 you know

01:14:24.200 even if

01:14:25.540 we see

01:14:25.840 these

01:14:26.100 on average

01:14:26.660 differences

01:14:27.260 between the

01:14:28.000 genders

01:14:28.380 and those

01:14:28.820 are interesting

01:14:29.500 we've been

01:14:30.500 very interested

01:14:31.700 to see

01:14:32.840 whether one

01:14:33.280 of the

01:14:33.540 drivers

01:14:33.940 of those

01:14:34.540 on average

01:14:35.780 gender

01:14:36.180 differences

01:14:36.660 are prenatal

01:14:37.920 hormones

01:14:38.360 like testosterone

01:14:39.420 which

01:14:40.760 you know

01:14:41.460 and the

01:14:42.300 male fetus

01:14:43.280 produces

01:14:43.840 twice as

01:14:44.540 much

01:14:44.980 testosterone

01:14:46.080 than the

01:14:46.600 female

01:14:46.940 fetus

01:14:47.640 and that

01:14:49.100 hormone

01:14:49.420 has been

01:14:49.880 demonstrated

01:14:50.540 in animal

01:14:51.140 studies

01:14:51.540 to change

01:14:52.200 brain

01:14:52.500 development

01:14:53.020 but supposing

01:14:54.540 you're a

01:14:55.040 female

01:14:55.500 fetus

01:14:56.520 exposed

01:14:57.300 to a

01:14:57.820 higher

01:14:58.120 level

01:14:58.640 of

01:14:58.960 testosterone

01:15:00.000 prenatally

01:15:01.000 in the

01:15:01.400 womb

01:15:01.660 you might

01:15:02.920 end up

01:15:03.260 with a

01:15:03.520 brain

01:15:03.760 that's a

01:15:04.100 bit like

01:15:04.460 temple

01:15:04.820 grandin

01:15:05.340 you know

01:15:05.620 she

01:15:05.900 she

01:15:06.540 engineers

01:15:07.100 systems

01:15:07.700 even though

01:15:08.400 she's

01:15:09.040 chromosomally

01:15:09.900 female

01:15:10.400 there were

01:15:11.340 studies

01:15:11.800 done on

01:15:12.340 a cohort

01:15:12.860 of

01:15:13.060 androgenized

01:15:13.920 girls

01:15:14.960 they were

01:15:17.160 looking

01:15:17.520 the studies

01:15:18.480 that I

01:15:18.900 recall

01:15:19.340 were done

01:15:20.520 to look

01:15:21.420 at sexual

01:15:22.060 preference

01:15:22.720 because the

01:15:24.200 androgenized

01:15:25.120 girls

01:15:26.160 had more

01:15:28.220 male

01:15:28.820 pattern

01:15:29.380 had a

01:15:30.440 more masculine

01:15:31.160 pattern of

01:15:31.860 play

01:15:32.300 and

01:15:33.860 but they

01:15:34.880 it turned out

01:15:35.860 that it had

01:15:36.340 very little

01:15:36.840 effect on

01:15:37.480 their

01:15:37.740 on their

01:15:38.960 sexual

01:15:39.360 attraction

01:15:39.980 they were

01:15:41.120 more masculine

01:15:41.820 in their play

01:15:42.320 patterns as

01:15:42.980 juveniles but

01:15:43.860 it didn't

01:15:45.080 tilt them

01:15:45.640 towards

01:15:46.640 female

01:15:47.060 attraction

01:15:47.480 I don't

01:15:47.840 know

01:15:48.040 have the

01:15:49.160 androgenized

01:15:50.020 females

01:15:51.140 been studied

01:15:51.840 in relationship

01:15:53.120 to

01:15:53.500 systemization

01:15:55.120 or

01:15:55.660 so we did

01:15:57.620 a study

01:15:58.000 way back

01:15:58.660 where we

01:15:59.340 looked at

01:15:59.760 a medical

01:16:00.220 condition

01:16:00.840 called

01:16:01.260 congenital

01:16:02.720 adrenal

01:16:03.180 hyperplasia

01:16:04.060 and so

01:16:05.660 these are

01:16:06.020 girls who

01:16:06.900 for genetic

01:16:07.860 reasons

01:16:08.520 are

01:16:09.660 producing

01:16:10.840 more

01:16:11.340 androgens

01:16:12.160 prenatally

01:16:12.880 and

01:16:14.700 their play

01:16:16.580 is more

01:16:17.220 masculinized

01:16:18.100 in terms of

01:16:18.740 their choice

01:16:19.420 they tend to

01:16:20.640 choose toys

01:16:21.500 that typical

01:16:22.260 boys would

01:16:22.940 choose like

01:16:23.460 the Lego

01:16:23.920 and the

01:16:24.820 toy vehicles

01:16:25.580 and so

01:16:26.000 forth

01:16:26.280 and they

01:16:27.080 were

01:16:27.220 we gave

01:16:27.960 them

01:16:28.280 a test

01:16:29.240 of autistic

01:16:29.720 traits

01:16:30.280 actually

01:16:30.720 so we

01:16:31.520 asked the

01:16:31.880 parents

01:16:32.360 to

01:16:33.440 assess

01:16:35.040 how many

01:16:36.060 autistic

01:16:36.420 traits

01:16:37.020 the

01:16:37.820 girls

01:16:38.660 with

01:16:39.100 CAH

01:16:40.280 congenital

01:16:41.080 adrenal

01:16:41.660 hyperplasia

01:16:42.360 have

01:16:42.680 relative

01:16:43.500 to their

01:16:43.940 sisters

01:16:44.380 raised in

01:16:44.920 the same

01:16:45.260 environment

01:16:45.760 who do

01:16:46.620 not have

01:16:47.100 CAH

01:16:48.240 so

01:16:49.520 one group

01:16:51.880 of girls

01:16:52.420 were

01:16:52.840 hyperandrogenized

01:16:54.780 and the

01:16:56.040 other group

01:16:56.560 of girls

01:16:57.060 biologically

01:16:57.780 related

01:16:58.260 were not

01:16:58.800 and we

01:16:59.440 found that

01:17:00.020 the girls

01:17:01.040 with CAH

01:17:01.740 had a

01:17:03.080 higher number

01:17:03.640 of autistic

01:17:04.200 traits

01:17:04.760 and they

01:17:05.800 have been

01:17:06.140 studied

01:17:07.240 for their

01:17:07.740 interest

01:17:08.920 in

01:17:09.760 objects

01:17:11.580 systems

01:17:12.700 by Melissa

01:17:14.680 Hines

01:17:15.160 the person

01:17:16.980 whose work

01:17:18.260 I'm most

01:17:18.600 familiar

01:17:18.900 with

01:17:19.240 so

01:17:20.800 I don't

01:17:21.800 want our

01:17:22.380 listeners

01:17:23.560 to think

01:17:24.260 that hormones

01:17:24.900 are the

01:17:25.880 only factor

01:17:26.540 because obviously

01:17:27.500 children are

01:17:28.620 born into

01:17:29.100 a particular

01:17:29.560 world

01:17:30.080 where maybe

01:17:31.600 girls and

01:17:32.920 boys are

01:17:33.380 treated

01:17:33.620 differently

01:17:34.060 by their

01:17:34.500 parents

01:17:35.060 they're exposed

01:17:36.060 to different

01:17:36.600 messages from

01:17:37.260 the media

01:17:37.780 from the

01:17:38.580 toy

01:17:38.860 industry

01:17:39.480 even

01:17:40.460 teachers

01:17:41.020 may be

01:17:41.540 unconsciously

01:17:43.180 treating

01:17:43.560 boys and

01:17:44.560 girls

01:17:44.780 differently

01:17:45.280 so social

01:17:46.900 factors

01:17:47.500 may well

01:17:48.620 be feeding

01:17:49.240 into all

01:17:49.820 this

01:17:50.140 but we

01:17:51.040 were quite

01:17:51.400 interested

01:17:51.820 to see

01:17:52.240 whether

01:17:52.600 prenatal

01:17:53.860 hormones

01:17:54.300 or some

01:17:54.820 aspect of

01:17:55.520 our

01:17:55.820 prenatal

01:17:56.680 biology

01:17:57.200 may also

01:17:58.280 be playing

01:17:58.800 a role

01:17:59.260 I'm going

01:18:00.940 to touch

01:18:01.380 unfortunately

01:18:02.620 we have

01:18:03.480 15 minutes

01:18:04.300 left in

01:18:04.840 this section

01:18:05.540 I think

01:18:06.020 for everyone

01:18:07.040 watching and

01:18:07.660 listening

01:18:07.960 what we're

01:18:08.420 going to

01:18:08.720 do on

01:18:09.020 the Daily

01:18:09.340 Wire

01:18:09.560 side

01:18:09.880 is talk

01:18:10.300 about

01:18:10.620 the

01:18:11.400 political

01:18:11.920 ramifications

01:18:12.860 of this

01:18:13.480 work

01:18:13.780 but also

01:18:14.500 the personal

01:18:15.160 consequences

01:18:15.920 of the

01:18:16.380 political

01:18:16.720 ramifications

01:18:17.480 because

01:18:17.920 I'm

01:18:18.600 interested

01:18:19.020 to hear

01:18:19.520 your

01:18:19.900 story

01:18:20.900 about

01:18:21.400 the

01:18:22.500 public

01:18:23.360 reception

01:18:23.920 of your

01:18:24.340 work

01:18:24.740 and

01:18:24.980 how

01:18:26.000 that's

01:18:26.520 impacted

01:18:27.040 your ability

01:18:27.700 to do

01:18:28.080 research

01:18:28.560 and what

01:18:28.980 that's

01:18:29.300 taught

01:18:29.560 you

01:18:29.760 so I

01:18:30.060 think

01:18:30.220 we're

01:18:30.400 going to

01:18:30.580 talk

01:18:30.780 about

01:18:30.980 that

01:18:31.160 on the

01:18:31.400 Daily

01:18:31.580 Wire

01:18:31.760 side

01:18:32.000 one of

01:18:32.760 the

01:18:32.900 things

01:18:33.140 we

01:18:33.340 haven't

01:18:33.660 talked

01:18:33.940 about

01:18:34.320 yet

01:18:34.660 that

01:18:35.040 constitutes

01:18:36.400 a shared

01:18:36.920 interest

01:18:37.440 that's

01:18:38.340 relevant to

01:18:38.940 what we've

01:18:39.320 been

01:18:39.460 discussing

01:18:39.900 as well

01:18:40.320 is

01:18:40.460 you've

01:18:40.700 written

01:18:40.980 books

01:18:42.160 that

01:18:42.480 are

01:18:43.860 focused

01:18:44.980 on the

01:18:45.420 issue

01:18:45.740 of

01:18:46.060 malevolence

01:18:47.120 like

01:18:48.980 psychopathy

01:18:49.780 you wrote

01:18:50.800 zero degrees

01:18:51.440 of empathy

01:18:52.000 you wrote

01:18:52.500 science

01:18:52.920 of evil

01:18:53.400 and I

01:18:54.260 mean I'm

01:18:54.600 very

01:18:54.920 interested

01:18:55.400 in

01:18:55.800 malevolence

01:18:56.700 and in

01:18:57.520 cruelty

01:18:58.040 and in

01:18:59.300 psychopathy

01:19:00.680 not so much

01:19:02.420 the callousness

01:19:03.260 as the

01:19:04.060 cruelty

01:19:04.480 and the

01:19:05.520 delight in

01:19:06.160 cruelty

01:19:06.460 and so I'm

01:19:07.120 curious

01:19:07.600 we only have

01:19:08.760 15 minutes

01:19:09.560 but I would

01:19:11.080 like to know

01:19:11.560 first how

01:19:12.280 that interest

01:19:13.620 relates to your

01:19:14.480 other interests

01:19:15.020 but also

01:19:15.600 maybe you could

01:19:16.420 give us a bit

01:19:17.340 of an insight

01:19:17.820 into your

01:19:18.320 broad

01:19:18.600 conclusions

01:19:19.220 yeah

01:19:19.960 so just

01:19:20.860 first of all

01:19:21.940 just so that

01:19:23.140 our listeners

01:19:23.640 are not

01:19:23.980 confused

01:19:24.520 the two

01:19:26.460 books that

01:19:26.940 you mentioned

01:19:27.440 are the

01:19:27.920 very same

01:19:28.520 book

01:19:28.880 but they

01:19:29.520 came out

01:19:29.980 under

01:19:30.200 different

01:19:30.560 titles

01:19:31.080 in the

01:19:32.080 UK

01:19:32.320 it's called

01:19:32.780 zero degrees

01:19:33.540 of empathy

01:19:34.100 and in

01:19:34.920 the US

01:19:35.320 it's called

01:19:35.740 the science

01:19:36.300 of evil

01:19:36.660 oh

01:19:36.960 okay

01:19:37.840 okay

01:19:38.380 okay

01:19:38.680 I wouldn't

01:19:39.600 want people

01:19:40.040 to rush

01:19:40.520 out to the

01:19:41.000 bookstore

01:19:41.300 and buy

01:19:41.740 both books

01:19:42.420 because they'll

01:19:42.800 just discover

01:19:43.460 that as soon

01:19:44.360 as they

01:19:44.600 open it

01:19:45.160 that it's

01:19:46.420 the same

01:19:46.800 book

01:19:47.100 under two

01:19:47.700 different

01:19:47.960 titles

01:19:48.360 but I

01:19:50.340 start that

01:19:51.380 book

01:19:51.820 with a

01:19:52.740 personal

01:19:53.140 anecdote

01:19:53.620 which is

01:19:55.140 that when I

01:19:55.580 was seven

01:19:56.040 years old

01:19:56.740 my father

01:19:58.160 told me

01:19:58.900 about the

01:19:59.280 holocaust

01:19:59.880 you know

01:20:00.940 I come

01:20:01.240 from a

01:20:01.600 Jewish

01:20:01.820 family

01:20:02.300 and for

01:20:03.760 many people

01:20:04.440 the cruelty

01:20:05.740 of the

01:20:06.220 holocaust

01:20:06.800 is kind

01:20:07.980 of one

01:20:08.460 of the

01:20:08.900 big

01:20:09.900 questions

01:20:10.500 about

01:20:11.040 how could

01:20:11.960 human

01:20:12.280 beings

01:20:12.700 treat

01:20:13.220 one

01:20:13.500 another

01:20:13.860 with such

01:20:15.040 extreme

01:20:15.520 cruelty

01:20:16.000 you know

01:20:17.320 and he

01:20:17.600 told me

01:20:18.020 about

01:20:18.280 the

01:20:18.460 gas

01:20:18.700 chambers

01:20:19.160 he

01:20:20.240 told me

01:20:20.660 about

01:20:20.920 how

01:20:21.160 Jews

01:20:21.560 were

01:20:21.800 subject

01:20:22.200 to

01:20:22.520 human

01:20:22.960 experimentation

01:20:23.680 and he

01:20:25.280 told me

01:20:25.620 that his

01:20:26.020 first

01:20:26.360 girlfriend's

01:20:27.120 mother

01:20:27.440 had her

01:20:29.080 hands

01:20:29.640 amputated

01:20:30.760 in the

01:20:31.220 concentration

01:20:31.660 camp

01:20:32.380 and sewn

01:20:33.260 on

01:20:33.520 backwards

01:20:33.980 so that

01:20:35.520 her thumb

01:20:36.660 was where

01:20:37.000 her little

01:20:37.340 finger

01:20:37.680 should be

01:20:38.220 and vice

01:20:38.760 versa

01:20:39.120 so the

01:20:40.540 Nazi

01:20:40.900 doctors

01:20:41.440 were

01:20:41.760 conducting

01:20:43.080 experiments

01:20:43.740 on

01:20:44.080 people

01:20:44.560 out

01:20:45.780 of

01:20:45.880 a

01:20:46.060 fascination

01:20:46.700 with

01:20:47.160 what

01:20:47.420 was

01:20:47.600 possible

01:20:48.060 trying

01:20:48.540 to

01:20:48.700 break

01:20:49.000 through

01:20:49.380 new

01:20:50.460 barriers

01:20:51.040 in

01:20:51.360 surgery

01:20:52.080 for

01:20:52.360 example

01:20:52.760 but

01:20:54.120 without

01:20:54.460 any

01:20:54.840 regard

01:20:55.320 for

01:20:56.380 the

01:20:56.680 patients

01:20:57.640 or the

01:20:58.540 inmates

01:20:59.080 subjectivity

01:21:00.400 or

01:21:00.640 feelings

01:21:01.160 you know

01:21:02.160 and I

01:21:02.380 got

01:21:02.560 you know

01:21:03.000 so

01:21:03.280 this has

01:21:03.860 been a

01:21:04.420 lifelong

01:21:04.940 question

01:21:06.020 for me

01:21:06.640 about

01:21:07.700 cruelty

01:21:08.580 and

01:21:10.220 often

01:21:11.080 extremes

01:21:12.420 of

01:21:12.720 human

01:21:13.020 cruelty

01:21:13.440 are

01:21:13.700 just

01:21:13.920 dismissed

01:21:14.440 as

01:21:14.900 evil

01:21:15.360 I

01:21:16.340 say

01:21:16.520 dismissed

01:21:17.100 because

01:21:17.700 you know

01:21:18.940 what you

01:21:19.480 often hear

01:21:19.980 in a

01:21:20.260 court of

01:21:20.740 law

01:21:21.000 a criminal

01:21:21.500 court

01:21:22.020 is

01:21:23.040 the

01:21:23.760 defendant

01:21:24.180 is

01:21:24.520 evil

01:21:24.800 that's

01:21:25.140 why

01:21:25.460 he or

01:21:26.420 she

01:21:26.580 committed

01:21:27.000 these

01:21:27.340 acts

01:21:27.600 of

01:21:27.800 cruelty

01:21:28.200 whereas

01:21:29.360 for a

01:21:29.840 scientist

01:21:30.120 I

01:21:30.400 don't

01:21:30.580 feel

01:21:31.000 the

01:21:31.920 word

01:21:32.160 evil

01:21:32.960 really

01:21:33.840 explains

01:21:34.480 what's

01:21:35.320 happened

01:21:35.680 how was

01:21:36.160 the

01:21:36.300 person

01:21:36.560 able

01:21:36.920 to

01:21:37.120 do

01:21:37.300 that

01:21:37.620 whereas

01:21:38.440 I

01:21:38.680 think

01:21:39.000 looking

01:21:39.840 at

01:21:40.100 the

01:21:40.400 idea

01:21:41.200 of

01:21:41.380 empathy

01:21:41.880 and

01:21:42.780 the

01:21:42.900 idea

01:21:43.200 that

01:21:43.400 we

01:21:43.540 may

01:21:43.900 either

01:21:44.880 be

01:21:45.100 born

01:21:45.420 with

01:21:45.620 different

01:21:45.920 levels

01:21:46.260 of

01:21:46.440 empathy

01:21:46.900 so

01:21:48.040 for

01:21:48.280 genetic

01:21:48.660 and

01:21:49.180 neurological

01:21:49.640 reasons

01:21:50.320 or

01:21:51.300 we

01:21:51.480 may

01:21:51.680 lose

01:21:52.240 our

01:21:53.000 empathy

01:21:53.540 perhaps

01:21:55.060 because

01:21:55.560 of

01:21:55.920 social

01:21:56.460 factors

01:21:57.060 ideological

01:21:57.980 factors

01:21:58.940 you know

01:21:59.980 think about

01:22:00.520 the people

01:22:00.980 that flew

01:22:01.520 the planes

01:22:02.100 into the

01:22:02.580 twin

01:22:02.820 towers

01:22:03.300 on

01:22:03.580 9-11

01:22:04.100 and

01:22:05.180 they

01:22:05.300 believed

01:22:05.840 that they

01:22:06.240 were doing

01:22:06.580 the right

01:22:06.940 thing

01:22:07.360 without

01:22:08.280 much

01:22:08.760 thought

01:22:09.300 for the

01:22:10.280 victims

01:22:10.820 that they

01:22:11.260 were about

01:22:11.720 to

01:22:11.940 create

01:22:12.440 you know

01:22:13.540 so

01:22:13.840 I guess

01:22:15.360 that's one

01:22:15.940 answer to

01:22:16.420 your question

01:22:16.880 is that I

01:22:17.480 thought that

01:22:18.860 if we take

01:22:19.660 the idea

01:22:20.180 of empathy

01:22:20.900 and individual

01:22:22.460 differences in

01:22:23.280 empathy

01:22:23.620 that might

01:22:24.180 give us

01:22:24.760 more explanatory

01:22:25.680 power

01:22:26.260 into the

01:22:27.720 question of

01:22:28.220 why do

01:22:28.540 some people

01:22:29.240 behave with

01:22:30.880 cruelty

01:22:31.320 and others

01:22:31.940 behave with

01:22:32.480 kindness

01:22:32.920 why do

01:22:34.200 some people

01:22:34.640 rush over

01:22:35.200 to help

01:22:35.700 other people

01:22:36.380 when they

01:22:37.260 see a

01:22:37.620 victim in

01:22:38.100 the street

01:22:38.580 they see

01:22:39.540 an old

01:22:39.860 lady has

01:22:40.360 fallen down

01:22:41.080 that the

01:22:42.000 empathy is

01:22:42.620 the impulse

01:22:43.400 to rush

01:22:44.580 over and

01:22:45.040 help to

01:22:45.580 alleviate

01:22:45.960 somebody else's

01:22:46.800 suffering

01:22:47.240 and other

01:22:48.140 people will

01:22:48.660 walk by

01:22:49.320 you know

01:22:50.560 the so-called

01:22:51.080 bystander effect

01:22:52.200 in social

01:22:52.880 psychology

01:22:53.480 you know

01:22:55.140 they can

01:22:55.640 almost switch

01:22:56.240 off their

01:22:56.720 empathy

01:22:57.180 so that's

01:22:58.340 one reason

01:22:58.840 why I got

01:22:59.420 into that

01:23:00.140 and wrote

01:23:00.460 that book

01:23:01.020 but also

01:23:02.680 and I was

01:23:03.380 just starting

01:23:04.080 to explain

01:23:05.280 when you

01:23:06.220 look across

01:23:06.740 the range

01:23:07.360 of disabilities

01:23:08.840 and conditions

01:23:11.760 in psychiatry

01:23:14.440 whether we're

01:23:16.440 talking about

01:23:17.000 autism

01:23:17.420 or psychopaths

01:23:19.460 empathy

01:23:20.120 seems to be

01:23:20.880 a kind of

01:23:21.460 it comes up

01:23:22.780 a lot

01:23:23.180 it seems to

01:23:24.780 be something

01:23:25.120 that crops

01:23:25.620 up a lot

01:23:26.120 across people

01:23:27.200 with different

01:23:27.760 diagnoses

01:23:28.400 and I really

01:23:28.940 wanted to

01:23:29.480 kind of

01:23:29.740 explore

01:23:30.320 in a single

01:23:31.560 book

01:23:31.960 how different

01:23:33.400 aspects of

01:23:34.140 empathy

01:23:34.520 can result

01:23:35.720 in different

01:23:36.520 outcomes

01:23:37.660 so in the

01:23:38.700 case of

01:23:39.040 autistic people

01:23:39.980 they seem

01:23:41.040 to have

01:23:41.480 very good

01:23:42.600 affective

01:23:43.520 empathy

01:23:44.060 they care

01:23:45.400 about others

01:23:46.180 but they have

01:23:47.440 challenges in

01:23:48.280 cognitive

01:23:48.760 empathy

01:23:49.340 that's to do

01:23:50.420 with the

01:23:50.780 recognition

01:23:51.260 part

01:23:51.780 you know

01:23:52.480 interpreting

01:23:53.200 or inferring

01:23:54.260 what someone

01:23:54.740 might be

01:23:55.140 thinking or

01:23:55.680 feeling

01:23:56.000 once it's

01:23:57.020 pointed out

01:23:57.560 to them

01:23:57.960 they care

01:24:00.000 about another

01:24:00.560 person

01:24:00.960 and they

01:24:01.240 want to

01:24:01.760 stand up

01:24:03.620 for justice

01:24:04.180 they want

01:24:05.060 to help

01:24:05.400 people

01:24:05.820 the psychopath

01:24:07.220 almost has

01:24:08.060 the mirror

01:24:08.880 opposite

01:24:09.380 profile

01:24:10.100 they have

01:24:11.000 good

01:24:11.260 cognitive

01:24:11.780 empathy

01:24:12.340 we talked

01:24:13.440 about this

01:24:13.920 a bit

01:24:14.200 earlier

01:24:14.480 that's how

01:24:14.920 they can

01:24:15.440 deceive

01:24:16.080 others

01:24:16.520 and make

01:24:17.720 you believe

01:24:18.220 that something's

01:24:18.860 true when it's

01:24:19.520 not

01:24:19.860 but they don't

01:24:21.480 seem to care

01:24:22.280 about others

01:24:23.480 so they've

01:24:23.940 got reduced

01:24:24.880 affective

01:24:25.760 empathy

01:24:26.280 and that's

01:24:27.240 how they're

01:24:27.520 able to

01:24:28.100 torture

01:24:28.720 their victims

01:24:30.060 for example

01:24:30.680 without caring

01:24:31.460 I read a study

01:24:32.800 recently that

01:24:33.740 showed that

01:24:34.660 there was

01:24:36.060 substantial

01:24:36.680 variation in

01:24:37.780 periaqueductal

01:24:38.740 grey activation

01:24:39.500 in people

01:24:41.080 when they were

01:24:41.600 observing the

01:24:42.360 suffering of

01:24:43.160 others

01:24:43.500 and so

01:24:45.020 periaqueductal

01:24:46.100 grey activation

01:24:46.820 seems to be

01:24:47.540 pretty tightly

01:24:48.460 associated with

01:24:49.380 the experience

01:24:50.060 of pain

01:24:50.700 and so

01:24:51.820 part of that

01:24:52.820 empathy

01:24:53.260 could be

01:24:54.540 something as

01:24:55.680 direct as

01:24:56.440 when I

01:24:57.160 see you

01:24:58.000 in pain

01:24:58.640 what I

01:24:59.840 experience

01:25:00.580 is a

01:25:01.140 pain-like

01:25:01.760 response

01:25:02.520 and you

01:25:03.260 could imagine

01:25:03.760 wide individual

01:25:04.620 variation in

01:25:05.420 that

01:25:05.700 and so

01:25:06.680 okay

01:25:07.280 and so

01:25:07.560 let me

01:25:07.860 turn that

01:25:08.520 a little

01:25:08.740 bit

01:25:08.940 because

01:25:09.280 there's

01:25:10.040 a tough

01:25:10.960 question

01:25:11.480 lurking

01:25:11.900 here too

01:25:12.440 which is

01:25:13.000 it seems

01:25:14.840 to me

01:25:15.240 likely

01:25:15.680 that what

01:25:16.180 you're

01:25:16.400 pointing to

01:25:17.120 is

01:25:17.620 the

01:25:18.620 relationship

01:25:19.240 between

01:25:19.700 the capacity

01:25:20.440 for cruelty

01:25:21.240 or callousness

01:25:22.440 and lower

01:25:23.440 levels of

01:25:24.140 empathy

01:25:24.640 now you

01:25:25.680 know it's

01:25:26.180 one thing

01:25:26.720 to walk

01:25:27.960 by an old

01:25:28.520 lady who's

01:25:29.360 fallen down

01:25:29.860 on the street

01:25:30.320 and not

01:25:30.720 help and

01:25:31.360 it's another

01:25:31.780 thing to

01:25:32.240 kick her

01:25:32.720 right and

01:25:34.080 so mere

01:25:34.980 lack of

01:25:35.540 empathy

01:25:35.940 doesn't seem

01:25:36.960 to me to

01:25:37.460 suffice for

01:25:38.400 positive

01:25:39.100 cruelty

01:25:39.700 but then

01:25:40.680 I'm also

01:25:41.120 curious

01:25:41.620 like

01:25:42.220 you've

01:25:43.180 contrasted

01:25:43.960 systemizing

01:25:44.720 and empathizing

01:25:45.880 and I

01:25:46.740 think maybe

01:25:47.200 you already

01:25:47.560 answered this

01:25:48.240 with regards

01:25:48.920 to your

01:25:49.240 distinction

01:25:49.660 between

01:25:50.040 affective

01:25:50.660 and cognitive

01:25:51.200 empathy

01:25:51.660 but is

01:25:52.720 there

01:25:52.960 so there

01:25:54.000 is evidence

01:25:54.680 that lower

01:25:55.520 empathy

01:25:56.640 might be

01:25:57.660 associated

01:25:58.160 with callousness

01:25:58.980 you'd see

01:25:59.400 also that

01:25:59.920 with agreeableness

01:26:00.680 by the way

01:26:01.220 that's mirrored

01:26:01.920 in the

01:26:02.200 trait

01:26:02.520 research

01:26:04.440 but is

01:26:05.480 there

01:26:05.700 is there

01:26:06.520 indication

01:26:07.220 that

01:26:07.620 systemizing

01:26:08.560 is associated

01:26:10.000 with more

01:26:10.680 callousness

01:26:11.260 or is that

01:26:11.840 merely a matter

01:26:12.580 of that

01:26:12.940 cognitive

01:26:13.360 empathy

01:26:13.860 blindness

01:26:14.940 so to speak

01:26:15.760 exactly

01:26:16.400 I think

01:26:17.300 it's more

01:26:17.700 the latter

01:26:18.200 so when

01:26:19.780 we were

01:26:20.060 talking

01:26:20.340 earlier

01:26:20.800 we

01:26:21.840 I was

01:26:22.380 I was

01:26:22.940 presenting

01:26:23.940 this idea

01:26:24.860 as if

01:26:25.320 empathy

01:26:26.140 and systemizing

01:26:27.160 are two

01:26:27.700 independent

01:26:28.460 dimensions

01:26:29.400 yes

01:26:30.360 so in

01:26:31.480 the way

01:26:31.720 I've

01:26:31.960 kind of

01:26:32.820 tried to

01:26:34.040 explain this

01:26:35.420 in my

01:26:35.720 work

01:26:36.120 I literally

01:26:37.100 plot

01:26:37.540 empathy

01:26:38.440 along the

01:26:39.720 y-axis

01:26:40.240 and systemizing

01:26:41.500 along the

01:26:41.960 x-axis

01:26:42.680 and you

01:26:43.660 can find

01:26:44.560 all of us

01:26:45.080 fall somewhere

01:26:46.080 in that

01:26:48.180 space

01:26:48.640 in the

01:26:49.160 four

01:26:49.420 quadrants

01:26:50.080 but

01:26:51.080 we do

01:26:52.360 find a

01:26:52.860 small

01:26:53.300 but

01:26:54.040 significant

01:26:54.680 inverse

01:26:55.440 correlation

01:26:56.120 there's a

01:26:56.540 kind of

01:26:56.780 trade-off

01:26:57.420 that the

01:26:58.540 higher your

01:26:59.100 empathy

01:26:59.600 the more

01:27:01.660 difficulty

01:27:02.120 you have

01:27:02.720 on systemizing

01:27:03.560 and vice

01:27:04.100 versa

01:27:04.480 obviously

01:27:06.120 it's true

01:27:06.620 that you

01:27:06.920 can find

01:27:07.520 very

01:27:08.220 empathic

01:27:09.040 systemizers

01:27:10.380 and very

01:27:13.000 systematic

01:27:14.260 empathizers

01:27:15.520 but nevertheless

01:27:16.640 you know

01:27:17.580 the population

01:27:18.300 isn't randomly

01:27:19.420 distributed

01:27:20.160 we tend to

01:27:20.900 kind of

01:27:21.320 you know

01:27:22.000 we said

01:27:23.160 earlier

01:27:23.420 that more

01:27:23.860 women tend

01:27:24.520 to be up

01:27:25.640 towards the

01:27:26.860 empathy

01:27:27.260 end of

01:27:27.900 those two

01:27:30.440 distributions

01:27:31.940 and more

01:27:32.420 men tend

01:27:33.060 to be

01:27:33.420 you know

01:27:34.760 leaning

01:27:35.520 more towards

01:27:36.220 the

01:27:36.500 or located

01:27:37.680 more towards

01:27:38.240 the systemizing

01:27:39.020 end of

01:27:39.420 those two

01:27:39.820 distributions

01:27:40.440 you know

01:27:43.120 I think

01:27:44.440 when we think

01:27:45.540 about autistic

01:27:46.100 people

01:27:46.680 as I said

01:27:47.900 they don't

01:27:48.640 tend to be

01:27:49.160 callous

01:27:49.620 they tend

01:27:50.100 to sort

01:27:50.520 of

01:27:50.700 they tend

01:27:51.700 to struggle

01:27:52.260 with understanding

01:27:53.100 other people

01:27:54.380 and so

01:27:55.600 you know

01:27:56.040 some of

01:27:56.420 them even

01:27:56.800 avoid other

01:27:57.560 people

01:27:57.860 they're not

01:27:58.200 out to

01:27:58.620 hurt

01:27:58.900 others

01:27:59.360 they may

01:28:00.600 just

01:28:00.920 retreat

01:28:01.480 into the

01:28:02.020 world

01:28:02.300 the predictable

01:28:03.000 world of

01:28:03.700 objects and

01:28:04.480 systems

01:28:04.960 you know

01:28:06.040 the child

01:28:06.540 who's playing

01:28:07.080 with their

01:28:07.440 lego

01:28:07.840 is a kind

01:28:08.320 of almost

01:28:08.720 a stereotype

01:28:09.460 of an

01:28:09.940 autistic

01:28:10.260 child

01:28:10.780 they're not

01:28:11.740 actively

01:28:12.840 seeking to

01:28:14.180 hurt others

01:28:14.780 but what you

01:28:15.360 were describing

01:28:16.000 where somebody

01:28:17.380 goes over

01:28:18.100 and actually

01:28:18.520 kicks the

01:28:19.160 old lady

01:28:19.760 that's not

01:28:20.960 just low

01:28:22.000 empathy

01:28:22.440 there's some

01:28:23.020 kind of

01:28:23.360 pleasure

01:28:23.760 in hurting

01:28:24.960 another

01:28:25.800 person

01:28:26.360 so obviously

01:28:27.640 we need to

01:28:28.640 factor in

01:28:29.200 more than

01:28:29.580 just empathy

01:28:30.400 you know

01:28:31.540 that if

01:28:31.900 you're a

01:28:32.260 child for

01:28:32.720 example

01:28:33.060 who's been

01:28:33.520 bullied

01:28:33.920 and

01:28:36.000 you know

01:28:37.100 it makes

01:28:37.540 you feel

01:28:38.020 bigger and

01:28:38.620 stronger

01:28:39.000 to bully

01:28:40.560 others

01:28:41.120 you know

01:28:41.640 we have

01:28:41.920 this phenomenon

01:28:42.500 where the

01:28:43.160 victim

01:28:43.640 turns into

01:28:44.500 a victimizer

01:28:45.380 which has

01:28:47.300 always been

01:28:47.800 a paradox

01:28:48.500 for psychiatry

01:28:50.040 why is it

01:28:51.120 that

01:28:51.400 you know

01:28:52.320 why is it

01:28:52.860 that kids

01:28:53.680 who know

01:28:54.140 what it

01:28:54.420 feels like

01:28:55.020 who know

01:28:55.400 how

01:28:55.660 they know

01:28:56.340 how painful

01:28:56.960 it is

01:28:57.380 to be on

01:28:57.780 the receiving

01:28:58.320 end

01:28:58.740 of child

01:29:00.280 abuse

01:29:00.640 for example

01:29:01.200 when they

01:29:02.180 grow up

01:29:02.840 might abuse

01:29:04.440 their own

01:29:04.840 kids

01:29:05.200 you know

01:29:06.480 not

01:29:06.760 and it's not

01:29:07.320 deterministic

01:29:08.140 it's not that

01:29:08.860 they all do

01:29:09.560 that

01:29:09.880 in fact most

01:29:10.860 of them

01:29:11.120 don't

01:29:11.880 right

01:29:12.280 most people

01:29:12.960 who are

01:29:13.240 abused

01:29:13.580 as children

01:29:14.080 don't grow

01:29:14.760 up to

01:29:15.040 abuse

01:29:15.340 their children

01:29:15.860 although most

01:29:16.940 people who

01:29:17.520 abuse their

01:29:18.120 children

01:29:18.420 were abused

01:29:19.200 as children

01:29:19.840 so yeah

01:29:20.740 so there

01:29:21.180 are these

01:29:21.760 really interesting

01:29:22.680 important

01:29:23.620 developmental

01:29:24.780 sort of

01:29:26.820 effects

01:29:27.340 that we

01:29:27.680 need to

01:29:28.340 understand

01:29:28.900 you know

01:29:30.040 and you

01:29:30.680 know

01:29:30.840 if you

01:29:31.760 do

01:29:32.460 engage in

01:29:34.120 cruelty

01:29:34.500 like child

01:29:35.220 abuse

01:29:35.660 or hurting

01:29:36.340 others

01:29:36.740 is it just

01:29:38.060 a lack

01:29:38.420 of empathy

01:29:38.860 or is it

01:29:39.300 that the

01:29:40.340 activity itself

01:29:41.360 is giving

01:29:41.840 you something

01:29:42.500 yeah

01:29:43.320 positive

01:29:44.160 delight

01:29:44.760 i think

01:29:45.520 you can't

01:29:46.020 understand

01:29:46.580 the phenomenology

01:29:47.560 you were

01:29:47.960 describing

01:29:48.480 in the

01:29:49.420 concentration

01:29:49.880 camps

01:29:50.560 without

01:29:50.940 taking

01:29:51.660 like real

01:29:52.560 sadism

01:29:53.220 and the

01:29:53.820 dark

01:29:54.080 tetrad

01:29:54.540 research

01:29:54.900 seems to

01:29:55.440 indicate

01:29:55.780 that too

01:29:56.300 you know

01:29:56.680 the dark

01:29:57.780 tetrad

01:29:58.260 was originally

01:29:59.360 the dark

01:29:59.860 triad

01:30:00.480 machiavellian

01:30:01.720 psychopathic

01:30:02.740 and narcissistic

01:30:04.340 but further

01:30:05.640 investigation

01:30:06.220 indicated that

01:30:07.440 sadism was

01:30:08.380 a necessary

01:30:09.020 addition

01:30:09.580 and sadism

01:30:10.660 is best

01:30:11.140 defined as

01:30:11.800 positive

01:30:12.480 delight

01:30:13.100 in the

01:30:13.920 unnecessary

01:30:14.540 suffering

01:30:15.260 of others

01:30:15.720 right

01:30:15.960 so there's

01:30:16.400 a there's

01:30:16.940 a kick

01:30:17.360 there that's

01:30:17.900 not merely

01:30:18.720 like inability

01:30:20.700 to experience

01:30:22.240 like direct

01:30:24.540 physiological

01:30:25.420 empathy

01:30:26.360 your pain

01:30:26.900 is my pain

01:30:27.640 yeah there's

01:30:28.380 this word

01:30:28.940 called schadenfreude

01:30:30.260 that I'm sure

01:30:31.000 you know

01:30:31.420 you know

01:30:32.100 taking pleasure

01:30:32.880 in someone

01:30:33.400 else's misfortune

01:30:34.440 so it's not

01:30:35.620 just a kind

01:30:36.240 of lack

01:30:36.660 of empathy

01:30:37.520 or not caring

01:30:39.280 it's actually

01:30:39.760 sort of

01:30:40.480 you know

01:30:40.760 that someone

01:30:41.840 else's misfortune

01:30:42.780 actually makes

01:30:43.400 you feel

01:30:43.800 bigger and

01:30:44.340 stronger

01:30:44.720 in the story

01:30:46.160 of Cain

01:30:46.680 and Abel

01:30:47.220 Cain becomes

01:30:49.660 murderous

01:30:50.280 obviously

01:30:50.800 and then he's

01:30:51.640 the father

01:30:52.180 of the

01:30:52.760 genocidal

01:30:53.480 mob

01:30:53.960 essentially

01:30:54.480 that's how

01:30:55.020 the story

01:30:55.440 develops

01:30:55.980 but there's

01:30:57.280 a very

01:30:57.600 interesting

01:30:58.120 interchange

01:30:58.640 between him

01:30:59.520 and God

01:31:00.280 right at the

01:31:00.980 beginning of

01:31:01.500 the story

01:31:01.980 because

01:31:02.460 Cain is

01:31:03.680 complaining

01:31:04.180 bitterly to

01:31:04.860 God that

01:31:05.420 his sacrifices

01:31:06.380 aren't being

01:31:06.940 accepted

01:31:07.400 and that he's

01:31:08.000 a failure

01:31:08.460 and God

01:31:10.240 says two

01:31:10.840 things to him

01:31:11.600 he says

01:31:12.400 if you did

01:31:13.300 well you'd

01:31:13.860 be accepted

01:31:14.560 so implying

01:31:15.600 that Cain

01:31:16.160 isn't exactly

01:31:16.940 bringing his

01:31:17.660 best to the

01:31:18.360 table

01:31:18.680 but then he

01:31:19.620 also tells

01:31:20.340 him that

01:31:20.820 his theory

01:31:22.540 of his

01:31:23.280 misery

01:31:23.960 is wrong

01:31:24.820 God says

01:31:26.220 you think

01:31:26.880 you're miserable

01:31:27.460 because you've

01:31:28.280 been rejected

01:31:28.880 and you failed

01:31:29.700 but actually

01:31:30.540 what happened

01:31:31.220 is that

01:31:31.820 you were

01:31:33.160 rejected

01:31:33.680 and you

01:31:34.140 failed

01:31:34.580 and you

01:31:35.600 didn't learn

01:31:36.220 from it

01:31:36.760 and then

01:31:37.380 something

01:31:37.820 came along

01:31:38.440 to tempt

01:31:39.080 you

01:31:39.400 that sin

01:31:40.180 that crouches

01:31:40.860 at the door

01:31:41.320 and you

01:31:41.800 invited it

01:31:42.500 in

01:31:42.820 right to

01:31:44.200 have its

01:31:44.740 way with

01:31:45.260 you

01:31:45.380 he used

01:31:45.840 God uses

01:31:46.640 the analogy

01:31:47.340 of a

01:31:47.780 sexually

01:31:48.200 aroused

01:31:48.720 predator

01:31:49.320 and tells

01:31:50.620 Cain that

01:31:51.100 he invited

01:31:51.700 this spirit

01:31:52.660 in and

01:31:53.640 that that's

01:31:54.240 what's

01:31:54.840 possessing

01:31:55.400 him

01:31:55.600 right it's

01:31:56.180 a very

01:31:56.460 sophisticated

01:31:57.220 psychological

01:31:57.880 analysis

01:31:58.460 because it's

01:31:59.200 it's not

01:31:59.940 merely

01:32:00.560 let's say

01:32:01.640 a deficit

01:32:03.140 in empathy

01:32:03.760 there's a

01:32:04.320 there's another

01:32:05.060 factor

01:32:06.140 which is

01:32:06.900 it's something

01:32:08.320 approximating a

01:32:09.340 decision or a

01:32:10.220 series of

01:32:10.720 decisions to

01:32:11.640 to to revel

01:32:13.200 in to revel

01:32:14.600 in suffering

01:32:15.360 and and that's

01:32:17.180 not something

01:32:17.760 psychologists have

01:32:18.640 done a good job

01:32:19.380 of explaining

01:32:20.020 no but I mean

01:32:21.160 you've you've

01:32:22.340 reached to

01:32:23.180 the Bible

01:32:23.800 as one set

01:32:25.720 of stories

01:32:26.300 to try and

01:32:26.860 understand this

01:32:27.680 but we could

01:32:28.720 we could reach

01:32:29.960 to a much

01:32:30.680 closer

01:32:31.800 example

01:32:33.000 closer to

01:32:33.800 home which is

01:32:34.560 sibling rivalry

01:32:35.560 you know

01:32:36.920 because sibling

01:32:38.300 rivalry was

01:32:39.040 described as

01:32:39.700 something that's

01:32:40.180 quite normative

01:32:41.020 you know

01:32:42.160 if you have

01:32:43.000 kids as

01:32:44.080 parents it's

01:32:44.920 one of the

01:32:45.340 most heartbreaking

01:32:45.880 things is to

01:32:46.900 see two of

01:32:48.120 your kids

01:32:48.640 fighting each

01:32:49.940 other or

01:32:51.060 arguing with

01:32:51.800 each other

01:32:52.220 and you know

01:32:52.780 when we just

01:32:53.240 want our kids

01:32:53.940 to love each

01:32:54.540 other

01:32:54.860 right right

01:32:55.980 competition for

01:32:58.200 status and

01:32:58.880 attention well

01:32:59.480 that's part of

01:33:00.080 the Cain and

01:33:00.500 Abel story too

01:33:01.300 of course because

01:33:01.900 that's a sibling

01:33:02.540 rivalry story

01:33:03.540 absolutely so

01:33:05.100 you know

01:33:05.560 whether they're

01:33:06.880 whether they're

01:33:07.560 competing for

01:33:08.420 resources or

01:33:09.320 competing for

01:33:10.020 parental attention

01:33:11.060 you know

01:33:12.240 there may be

01:33:13.160 something more

01:33:13.680 than empathy

01:33:14.420 that's at play

01:33:15.480 in terms of

01:33:16.260 what's driving

01:33:16.840 our behavior

01:33:17.520 yeah

01:33:18.360 you know

01:33:18.840 that we

01:33:19.200 that we feel

01:33:20.000 better if we're

01:33:20.900 maybe higher

01:33:21.900 status or

01:33:22.860 yeah exactly

01:33:23.780 feel a bit more

01:33:24.580 powerful

01:33:24.880 yeah well it

01:33:25.360 does look like

01:33:26.260 yeah it does

01:33:26.800 look like

01:33:27.300 something like

01:33:27.960 a turn to

01:33:28.880 power as an

01:33:30.340 adaptive strategy

01:33:31.420 right a turn to

01:33:32.620 power and domination

01:33:33.600 rather than

01:33:34.280 reciprocity and

01:33:35.340 cooperation

01:33:36.320 but if we go

01:33:37.320 back to those

01:33:37.940 doctors in the

01:33:38.720 concentration camps

01:33:40.000 performing medical

01:33:41.180 experiments

01:33:42.000 Mengele being you

01:33:43.780 know maybe the

01:33:44.500 prime example

01:33:45.820 where he was

01:33:46.620 he was doing

01:33:47.660 experiments on

01:33:48.440 twins you know

01:33:49.780 he was interested

01:33:50.700 in the biology

01:33:52.560 of twins and

01:33:54.160 trying to

01:33:54.520 understand you

01:33:55.860 know if can we

01:33:56.500 do experiments on

01:33:57.560 twins children

01:33:58.780 Jewish twins that

01:34:00.700 were brought in as

01:34:01.500 prisoners can we

01:34:03.040 do experiments

01:34:03.700 where we could

01:34:04.320 remove the organ

01:34:05.260 from this child

01:34:06.920 and see what

01:34:07.840 happens given that

01:34:08.800 they're genetically

01:34:09.440 identical you

01:34:11.040 know that wasn't

01:34:11.980 sadism in the

01:34:12.960 sense or he

01:34:13.580 wasn't necessarily

01:34:14.140 getting pleasure

01:34:14.780 out of it he

01:34:15.960 was just pursuing

01:34:16.900 scientific curiosity

01:34:18.960 but where the

01:34:22.220 Nazis had said

01:34:24.020 it's okay to

01:34:25.000 treat people as

01:34:26.000 subhuman it's

01:34:27.140 okay to treat this

01:34:28.320 group of people as

01:34:30.080 if their subjectivity

01:34:31.360 it doesn't matter

01:34:32.460 just like many in

01:34:34.480 many labs animal

01:34:36.300 research is

01:34:37.280 conducted it's

01:34:38.920 almost as if we

01:34:39.620 say well it's okay

01:34:41.040 to experiment on a

01:34:42.120 rat or on a

01:34:43.720 mouse maybe we'll

01:34:46.760 anesthetize them but

01:34:47.800 we're still going to

01:34:48.500 sacrifice them for

01:34:50.000 the sake of our

01:34:50.740 scientific question

01:34:51.900 and under the

01:34:53.580 Nazi regime Jews

01:34:55.840 and other minorities

01:34:56.880 were treated as

01:34:58.440 subhumans almost

01:35:00.720 giving a license

01:35:02.640 or permission to

01:35:05.840 treat other people

01:35:06.880 as if they were

01:35:07.440 objects right

01:35:08.940 right well that

01:35:10.160 seems and I guess

01:35:11.180 maybe we'll close

01:35:12.020 with that that

01:35:12.700 seems at least in

01:35:14.040 part like a move

01:35:16.000 to subordinate the

01:35:18.220 empathic to the

01:35:19.380 systemizing right

01:35:21.540 is that you can

01:35:22.700 treat people one of

01:35:24.800 the contributing

01:35:25.440 factors to the kind

01:35:26.480 of evil that you

01:35:27.120 described is the

01:35:28.300 possibility of

01:35:30.400 treating people as

01:35:31.500 if they're no more

01:35:32.760 than cogs in a

01:35:33.780 machine or parts of

01:35:35.080 a inanimate parts

01:35:36.480 of a system

01:35:37.100 and I know that

01:35:38.200 we're kind of

01:35:38.900 running out of time

01:35:39.740 so I'll be brief on

01:35:40.820 this point but you

01:35:42.420 know if we look at

01:35:43.620 that period from

01:35:45.020 1933 when Hitler

01:35:46.900 got into power

01:35:47.800 through to when the

01:35:49.260 concentration camps

01:35:50.340 were in full swing

01:35:51.360 in the early 1940s

01:35:53.480 they were incremental

01:35:55.100 changes where you

01:35:57.340 know step by step

01:35:59.460 Jews and other

01:36:01.620 minorities were being

01:36:02.860 deprived of their

01:36:03.860 civil rights their

01:36:04.880 human rights you

01:36:07.120 know being treated as

01:36:08.240 if they were people

01:36:09.140 without without

01:36:10.300 feelings and and

01:36:11.820 didn't you know

01:36:13.160 didn't warrant equal

01:36:15.280 status in society and

01:36:17.060 if that happens that's

01:36:18.980 a kind of shift in our

01:36:20.120 political climate and

01:36:23.040 it's very easy for

01:36:23.920 these social changes

01:36:25.660 and political changes

01:36:26.840 to erode empathy we

01:36:29.780 can start treating

01:36:30.740 refugees as if they

01:36:32.540 are less than or we

01:36:34.420 can treat other

01:36:35.920 minorities as if they

01:36:37.360 are inferior if it's

01:36:39.820 legitimized by for

01:36:41.420 example the

01:36:41.920 government so many

01:36:43.920 ethical conundrums

01:36:46.340 are rectified by

01:36:48.360 striking the right

01:36:49.280 harmonious balance

01:36:50.480 and I guess that's

01:36:51.480 what we've concluded

01:36:52.600 with regards to

01:36:53.560 systemizing and

01:36:54.420 empathizing so for

01:36:55.800 everybody watching

01:36:56.980 and listening we're

01:36:58.280 going to continue our

01:36:59.280 discussion on the

01:37:00.040 daily wire side for

01:37:01.020 another half an hour

01:37:01.800 and I'm gonna I'm

01:37:03.340 gonna talk to Simon

01:37:04.140 about his more the

01:37:06.420 political ramifications

01:37:09.540 and repercussions of

01:37:10.940 his research and what

01:37:12.040 all that also means

01:37:13.300 for the state of

01:37:15.380 investigative science

01:37:16.780 all things considered

01:37:18.400 especially on the

01:37:19.200 clinical end so it

01:37:20.700 would be good if

01:37:21.640 those of you who are

01:37:22.440 inclined would join us

01:37:24.380 on the daily wire side

01:37:25.440 for that conversation

01:37:26.360 thank you very much for

01:37:27.380 agreeing to talk to me

01:37:28.220 today it's been a

01:37:29.040 pleasure I could talk

01:37:30.980 to you for much

01:37:31.600 longer and delve into

01:37:33.260 more of the details

01:37:34.260 about our differences

01:37:35.380 and similarities in

01:37:36.640 understanding and

01:37:37.760 interpretation I'd

01:37:39.000 sure love to see that

01:37:39.920 big five research done

01:37:41.300 on systemizing in

01:37:42.380 particular and

01:37:43.060 agreeableness because

01:37:44.360 it's a it's a burning

01:37:45.660 question so at least

01:37:47.600 for a personality

01:37:48.340 theorist and I don't

01:37:49.780 have a lab anymore

01:37:50.800 unfortunately so

01:37:52.080 um we'll we'll um

01:37:54.540 first of all I want to

01:37:55.520 thank you because the

01:37:56.220 conversation I've really

01:37:57.280 enjoyed it I'm looking

01:37:58.860 forward to the to the

01:37:59.760 next segment after the

01:38:02.100 break all right good

01:38:04.100 and thank you everybody

01:38:04.960 for your time and

01:38:05.740 attention

01:38:06.140 you

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - July 14, 2025

562. What Do We Actually Know About Autism？｜ Sir Simon Baron-Cohen

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