The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 564. The Meaning Of： Hansel & Gretel

00:00:00.000 Hello, everybody. So, in the past, I have told or read stories for children and offered

00:00:11.020 an analysis, and I recently released a new episode of that sort discussing the Grimm's

00:00:21.080 brothers, Snow White, and people seem pretty happy with that. I'll read you a couple of

00:00:25.740 comments. Can we have a whole psychoanalytic series on fairy tales? So many hidden lessons.

00:00:32.200 It also reminds me of the Peterson lectures I listened to on The Lion King, Peter Pan, and

00:00:37.620 Pinocchio. That was some years ago. Yes, more of these. Please do more of these. All the best from

00:00:44.620 the UK. Storytime with Dr. Peterson. Too awesome. Well, the episode proved quite popular, and people's

00:00:53.380 responses were very positive, and I like doing narrative analysis. And so, we're going to try

00:00:59.960 another one today. Hansel and Gretel. And you all know that story. So, we'll see how it goes.

00:01:07.740 Hard by a great forest dwelt a poor woodcutter with his wife and two children. The boy was called

00:01:14.980 Hansel and the girl Gretel. He had little to bite and to break, and once, when great scarcity fell on

00:01:21.480 the land, he could no longer procure daily bread. Now, when he thought this over by night in his bed

00:01:27.940 and tossed about in his anxiety, he groaned and said to his wife, more about her in a moment,

00:01:33.240 what is to become of us? How are we to feed our poor children when we no longer have anything even

00:01:39.120 for ourselves? Now, you see, there's something troublesome right there already, because

00:01:46.700 his priorities are backwards. He says, when we no longer have anything even for ourselves, well,

00:01:56.160 a father with his priorities right would be more concerned about his children's hunger than his own.

00:02:01.800 And so, the teller of the tale, the writer, the author of the tale sets up the situation for us 0.89

00:02:09.160 with that foolishness. This woodcutter is selfish and, as we'll see, also weak, and that places his 0.94

00:02:22.020 children at great risk. How are we to feed our poor children when we no longer have anything

00:02:26.940 even for ourselves? Prioritizing himself first. I'll tell you what, husband answered the woman, 0.77

00:02:34.660 early tomorrow morning, we will take the children out into the forest to where it is the thickest.

00:02:40.880 There we will light a fire for them and give each of them one piece of bread more, and then we'll go

00:02:46.280 to our work and leave them alone. They will not find their way home again, and we shall be rid of them.

00:02:52.460 No, wife, said the man. I will not do that. How can I bear to leave my children alone in the forest?

00:02:58.700 The wild animals would soon come and tear them to pieces. Oh, thou fool, said she. Then we must all 1.00

00:03:06.120 four die of hunger. Thou mayest as well plane the planks for our coffins. And she left him no peace

00:03:12.180 until he consented. But I feel very sorry for the poor children all the same, said the man.

00:03:17.000 Well, there's quite a tale of domestic catastrophe in that opening paragraph, because his wife,

00:03:24.800 who turns out to be the children's stepmother, as we see in the next paragraph, is quite the horrid 0.99

00:03:31.400 piece of work. And he doesn't stand up to her. He proclaims that he feels sorry for his children,

00:03:39.360 but he doesn't throw his wife out of the house, which would be approximately the appropriate move

00:03:45.640 under such circumstances, when her proclivity is to not only ensure that she's fed first,

00:03:53.540 which makes her a very bad mother, but also to trick the children, take them to where it's maximally 0.97

00:04:00.180 frightening, the darkest part of the forest, leave them there, and then harass her weak husband to death 1.00

00:04:08.240 until he agrees. Now, another thing we might give some thought to with this opening is why

00:04:15.580 the poverty exists. And we could feel sorry for the poor woodcutter and his poor

00:04:22.220 new wife. Or we could note very carefully that their poverty might have something to do with their

00:04:31.760 misplaced priorities and their selfishness. So let me give you a counterexample. In the story of

00:04:37.300 Elijah, in the Old Testament, Elijah is the first prophet who identifies the voice of conscience

00:04:44.940 with the divine, which is a major psychological transformation, right? Now, Elijah is the enemy

00:04:51.700 of the nature worshipers who are led by an evil queen named Jezebel, who's an arrogant and narcissistic 0.99

00:05:00.260 foreign, malign foreign influence on the Israelite nation. And she, in her arrogance and haughtiness, 1.00

00:05:11.740 brings the nation to ruin. And she persecutes Elijah for his forthrightness and his willingness

00:05:19.780 to stand for the one true God against the nature worshipers, which is something to think about

00:05:24.720 in these most modern of times. In any case, Elijah is running away from Jezebel and her forces after 0.97

00:05:34.640 having defeated the worshipers of nature. And God sends him to a poor widow, and who, if I remember 0.99

00:05:42.600 correctly, he meets by a well. And she offers to share her remaining food with him. She just has enough

00:05:51.080 flour for one meal for her and her son, and enough flour and oil for one meal for her and her son.

00:05:58.300 But she offers to share it with this stranger, this strange prophet. And then it turns out that

00:06:06.540 if she hits the barrel of flour, more flour appears, and the oil magically refills,

00:06:15.300 so that the prophet and the woman, the widow, the poor widow and her son subsist on virtually 0.78

00:06:22.600 nothing for a very long period of time. And you might ask, well, what does that mean? Apart from

00:06:28.600 the, let's say, childish, magical element of it, it means that those who are generous in their

00:06:39.740 attitude, and that might be particularly true of food, because human beings share food,

00:06:45.300 are most likely to be provisioned appropriately over the longest period of time. So if you're

00:06:53.480 generous and hospitable, then the probability that you'll stand at the center of a productive and

00:07:02.100 abundant community is radically elevated. Whereas if you're only concerned about yourself,

00:07:07.000 and you ensure that you're the one that's fed first, let's say even before your children,

00:07:12.600 then that's reflective of an attitude that's going to do nothing but keep you admired in poverty

00:07:18.660 forever, you and your society. So strangely enough, paradoxically enough, an attitude of generous

00:07:27.140 hospitality and sharing is the best way to facilitate social interaction in such a way that

00:07:33.940 everything becomes abundant. And the wife of the woodcutter is certainly selfish and cruel. And at 0.99

00:07:44.840 minimum, the woodcutter himself is a weak pushover. That's very much also reminiscent of the situation

00:07:51.260 with Eve and Adam, because Eve is the primary sinner, let's say, or the initiator of the fall,

00:07:57.980 but Adam is too weak to stand up against her. And, you know, if there's ever a time for a father to

00:08:04.960 make a stand in relationship to his children, it would be at the time when his new wife, who is not

00:08:13.840 the children's biological mother, is harboring selfish and murderous thoughts towards them. So that kind of 1.00

00:08:22.320 sums up the domestic situation. The two children had also not been able to sleep for hunger and had

00:08:29.740 heard what their stepmother, there we go, had said to their father. Now, why is that relevant? Well, your

00:08:35.920 risk for being abused in a domestic household, if you're a child, is radically elevated if you have a

00:08:44.480 stepparent. I think the risk for abuse is a hundred times greater. It's some ridiculous amount. And so these

00:08:51.860 old stories point out the danger of non-biological relationship in the hothouse of a domestic

00:09:01.440 situation, especially under conditions of scarcity and privation. And that's not particularly politically

00:09:08.940 correct, but raising children is a difficult endeavor. And you need everything that you can

00:09:18.040 possibly have working for you to ensure that you do it properly. And one of the things that

00:09:23.360 is useful to have working for you is biological relationship with the children whose care you're

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00:10:30.820 The two children had also not been able to sleep for hunger, unfortunate as they are in this poor and

00:10:37.480 selfish household and had heard what their stepmother had said to their father. Gretel wept bitter tears

00:10:43.280 and said to Hansel, now all is over with us. Be quiet, Gretel, said Hansel. Do not distress thyself. I will

00:10:51.980 soon find a way to help us. Now, you see, that contrasts Hansel and Gretel with the stepmother and

00:11:00.800 the woodcutter, the father, because the parents look out for themselves. That's their first impulse,

00:11:11.540 even in a murderous way. Whereas Hansel and Gretel make a team and Hansel's response to Gretel's

00:11:21.200 distress is to say that he will find a way to help the both of them. So he doesn't concern himself with

00:11:27.160 his own immediate survival. He extends a hospitable hand and a brave hand to his sister.

00:11:37.900 And when the old folks had fallen asleep, he got up, put on his little coat, opened the door below 0.97

00:11:42.060 and crept outside. The moon shone brightly and the white pebbles which lay in front of the house

00:11:48.160 glittered like real silver pennies. Hansel stooped and put as many of them in the little pocket of his

00:11:54.060 coat as he could possibly get in. Then he went back and said to Gretel, be comforted, dear little

00:11:58.280 sister, and sleep in peace. God will not forsake us. So Hansel is emblematic of the boy who can find

00:12:06.500 the shining path even in the darkness. And he lay down again in his bed. When day dawned before the sun

00:12:15.540 had risen, the woman came and awoke the two children saying, get up, you sluggards. We are going into the

00:12:20.240 forest to fetch wood. She gave each a little piece of bread and said, there is something for your

00:12:25.360 dinner, but do not eat it up before then for you will get nothing else. Gretel took the bread under

00:12:31.540 her apron as Hansel had the stones in his pocket. Then they all set out together on the way to the

00:12:36.520 forest. When they had walked a short time, Hansel stood still and peeped back at the house and did so

00:12:42.740 again and again. So he's a thoughtful boy and he's planning his return home, right? And that's often

00:12:50.340 the end of a story. How do you return home? Like the Hobbit does at the end of the, well, the Hobbit

00:12:56.140 and at the end of the Lord of the Rings, right? To wander out into the world and to find your way home

00:13:01.580 transformed. Then they all set out together on the way to the forest. When they'd walked a short time,

00:13:07.740 Hansel stood still and peeped back at the house and did so again and again. His father said, Hansel,

00:13:13.280 what art thou looking at there and staying behind for? Mind what thou art about. Mind what thou art

00:13:20.500 about and do not forget how to use thy legs. Ah, father said, Hansel, I'm looking at my little white 0.84

00:13:26.160 cat, which is sitting up on the roof and wants to say goodbye to me. The wife said, fool, that is not 0.99

00:13:32.940 thy little cat. That is the morning sun, which is shining on the chimneys. Hansel, however, had not 0.99

00:13:38.460 been looking at the cat, but had been constantly throwing out one of the white pebble stones onto

00:13:44.240 from his pocket onto the road. When they had reached the middle of the forest, the father said, now,

00:13:49.780 children, pile up some wood and I will light a fire that you may not be cold. So he's couching his

00:13:55.360 malevolence, his cowardly malevolence in a facade or patina of benevolence. He's out in the forest 0.79

00:14:05.180 taking care of his children. And that's a motif that echoes through this story. The contrast between

00:14:12.320 the false facade of parental, paternal, maternal care and the underlying malevolent reality.

00:14:22.800 Hansel and Gretel gathered brushwood together as high as a little hill. The brushwood was lighted.

00:14:28.760 And when the flames were burning very high, the woman said, now, children, lay yourself down by

00:14:33.300 the fire and rest. We will go into the forest and cut some wood. When we have done, we will come back

00:14:38.440 and fetch you away. So the same thing, another sign of persona, another sign of virtue signaling,

00:14:47.000 another sign of false morality, another indication you might say of, it's a variant of using God's name

00:14:59.280 in vain. The acting out of a claim to moral virtue, obviously the woodcutter and his wife are just being

00:15:09.940 good parents, taking care of the children while pursuing their own narrow, selfish and even malevolent aims.

00:15:17.240 Very bad. Hansel and Gretel sat by the fire and when noon came, each ate a little piece of bread.

00:15:23.680 And as they heard the strokes of the wood axe, they believed that their father was near.

00:15:27.460 So they'd been lulled into a false sense of security. It was not, which is like, that's another

00:15:33.720 indication of the depth of the betrayal, right? So the stepmother and the weak father set their

00:15:40.300 children up to assume that they're safe in the darkest place of the woods, but they've skittered off

00:15:45.360 and left them to their own devices. When they heard the strokes of the wood axe, they believed that the

00:15:51.200 father was near. It was not, however, the axe. It was a branch which he had fastened to a withered tree,

00:15:57.220 which the wind was blowing backwards and forwards. So that's another indication of his treachery and

00:16:04.480 malevolence in the service of his cruel and heartless stepmother slash wife. He's actually 0.98

00:16:15.120 set up an additional trick to lull his children into a sense of security so they won't follow and

00:16:23.900 will stay lost in the forest. And as they had been sitting such a long time, their eyes shut with

00:16:28.880 fatigue and they fell fast asleep. When at last they awoke, it was already dark night. Gretel began

00:16:35.240 to cry and said, how are we to get out of the forest now? But Hansel comforted her and said, just wait a

00:16:42.540 little until the moon had risen and then we will soon find the way. And when the full moon had risen,

00:16:48.480 Hansel took his little sister by the hand and followed the pebbles, which shone like newly coined

00:16:53.980 silver pieces and showed them the way. They walked the whole night long. So again, you can see that

00:16:59.780 Hansel is taking care of Gretel and making manifest that spirit of reciprocity and mature care that

00:17:08.960 actually saves the children in the final analysis and contrasts them quite dramatically with the

00:17:16.280 appalling conduct of their parents. They walked the whole night long and by break of day came once

00:17:23.960 more to their father's house. They knocked at the door and when the woman opened it and saw that it

00:17:29.160 was Hansel and Gretel, she said, lying immediately as is her nature. So, you know, and that pertains to

00:17:35.820 what we discussed before, the reasons for her poverty. She's cruel and selfish and prone continually to 1.00

00:17:43.500 deceit. And no doubt she believes that the world is a hard place, dooming someone like her to abject 0.99

00:17:50.160 poverty such that she can't feed herself, her husband, and the children who aren't her children.

00:17:57.800 But given her character, her socioeconomic circumstances are hardly surprising.

00:18:06.320 You naughty children, why have you slept so long in the forest? We thought you were never coming back

00:18:10.760 at all. The father, however, rejoiced for it had cut him to the heart to leave them behind alone.

00:18:17.120 Yeah, well, it might have cut him to the heart, but he didn't do much about it.

00:18:21.920 Not long afterwards, there was once more great scarcity in all parts. And the children heard

00:18:26.820 their mother saying at night to their father, everything is eaten again. We have one half loaf

00:18:32.000 left and after that there is an end. Those children must go. We will take them farther into the wood so

00:18:38.300 that they will not find their way out again. There is no other means of saving ourself. Well, so the

00:18:44.520 children have managed to fend for themselves quite adequately at this point following the silver

00:18:51.560 road back home in consequence of Hansel's positive conduct, his attentive attitude, and his willingness

00:19:02.000 to take care of his sister. But they are just children. And so it's possible for adults to circumvent even the

00:19:10.520 wisest actions of children and betray them effectively, which is what happens next.

00:19:20.520 Next, the man's heart was heavy and he thought, it would be better for thee to share the last mouthful

00:19:28.680 with thy children. Yeah, you think? The woman, however, would listen to nothing that he had to say, 0.97

00:19:33.680 but scolded and reproached him. And then the author adds a comment. He who says A

00:19:40.000 must say B likewise. And as he had yielded the first time, he had to do a second time.

00:19:47.520 He had to do so a second time also. Well, his wife pokes and prods him to find his weakness of

00:19:58.000 character. And once having established that initially, she knows the points to leverage. And so does that

00:20:07.700 again. And the authors make reference to the fact that once you've given up in relationship to a

00:20:20.340 fundamental principle, the first time, it's much more likely that you'll do the same the second time.

00:20:30.820 The children, however, were still awake and had heard the conversation. When the old folks were

00:20:35.400 asleep, Hansel again got up and wanted to go out and pick up pebbles, as he had done before.

00:20:42.140 But the woman had locked the door and Hansel could not get out. Nonetheless, he comforted his little

00:20:48.500 sister and said, do not cry, Gretel. Go to sleep quietly. The good God will help us. So Hansel is

00:20:56.680 also a boy of some upward orientation and faith. And that makes itself manifest in his attitude of

00:21:05.560 reciprocity towards his sister, which, as we said, contrasts with the parents, but also turns out to be

00:21:13.060 the saving grace in the story. Early in the morning came the woman and took the children out of their beds.

00:21:19.280 Their bit of bread was given to them, but it was still smaller than the time before. On the way

00:21:24.520 into the forest, Hansel crumbled his in his pocket and often stood still and threw a morsel on the

00:21:30.440 ground. So he's trying the same, a variant of the same strategy that he used last time, to leave a

00:21:37.300 pathway so that when his parents lose him purposefully, he still has the wherewithal to get home. And he's also

00:21:46.500 willing to sacrifice his meal to ensure that the future remains secure and predictable. And that

00:21:56.900 shows a kind of preternatural maturity on his part, because he's a hungry child, after all, a starving

00:22:06.060 child, even under in dire straits. And he still has enough self-control and discipline to sacrifice his

00:22:14.540 bit of bread to ensure that his sister and himself can make their way home. So that's also a testament

00:22:24.540 to Hansel's character.

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00:23:49.180 Hansel, why dost thou stop and look round, said the father. Go on. I'm looking back at my little

00:23:54.120 pigeon, which is sitting on the roof and wants to say goodbye to me, answered Hansel. Simpleton,

00:23:59.200 said the woman. That is not thy little pigeon. That is the morning sun that is shining on the chimney.

00:24:04.600 Hansel, however, little by little, threw all the crumbs on the path. So he's thinking ahead.

00:24:10.440 The woman led the children still deeper into the forest where they had never in their lives been

00:24:15.940 before. Well, this description works on two levels because there's the concrete level where

00:24:24.380 there is in the story, the house in the forest, and the forest is the place of danger and the unknown.

00:24:33.320 Danger, possibility, and the unknown. And so that's really the structure of the world, a stable,

00:24:38.760 secure center. That's the house, or in principle, secure. Although in this case, it's inhabited by,

00:24:45.100 you know, evil stepmother. The home surrounded by the unknown. And the children are taken out into

00:24:54.360 the unknown by the acts of their parents. But metaphysically, they're abandoned to the unknown

00:25:01.400 because their parents do not provide them with the security that is appropriate from the moral

00:25:10.140 perspective with regard to parental conduct. So children who are the target of malevolent envy and

00:25:21.740 jealousy, even murderous, on the part of their parents, first motivated by exceptionally selfish reasons,

00:25:31.060 justified by reference to self-induced poverty, do find themselves abandoned in the unknown, right?

00:25:40.400 They're parentless children. The woman led the children still deeper into the forest where they had

00:25:45.660 never in their lives been before. Then a great fire was again made. That's another sense of false

00:25:51.200 security. And the mother said, just sit there, you children. And when you are tired, you may sleep a

00:25:56.640 little. She's so wonderful. We are going into the forest to cut wood. And in the evening, when we

00:26:01.220 were done, we will come and fetch you away. When it was noon, Gretel shared her piece of bread with

00:26:08.300 Hansel, who had scattered his by the way. And so Gretel is also part of a reciprocal and reciprocally

00:26:17.980 altruistic duo. You could imagine a scenario where she had secretly skittered off to eat her lone piece

00:26:28.720 of bread by herself, leaving her brother with nothing. But despite their privation, they prioritize

00:26:35.960 sharing. And that makes them a unit, a unit with two minds, let's say. And as such a cooperative unit,

00:26:45.460 they're able to deal with the unknown circumstances that present themselves to them much more effectively.

00:26:54.460 That sharing, hospitality, is the sacrifice of momentary benefit for the advantage of long-term

00:27:03.260 communion, play, communication, strategy, and mutual support. And that is the foundation of community.

00:27:11.580 Sacrifice as foundation of community. And Hansel and Gretel understand this.

00:27:19.580 Then they fell asleep, and evening came and went, but no one came to the poor children.

00:27:24.340 They did not awake until it was dark night. And Hansel comforted his little sister and said,

00:27:29.100 Just wait, Gretel, until the moon rises, and then we shall see the crumbs of bread,

00:27:33.580 which I have strewn about, and they will show us our way home.

00:27:36.520 When the moon came, they set out, but they found no crumbs, for the many thousands of birds which

00:27:42.840 fly about in the woods and fields had picked them all up. So Hansel is stymied this time in his

00:27:51.440 attempt to circumvent the machinations of his evil stepmother and his weak father.

00:27:56.700 Reference to his, the limits of his childhood strategizing.

00:28:03.920 Hansel said to Gretel, We shall soon find the way. But they did not find it. They walked the whole night

00:28:09.620 and all the next day too, from morning till evening. But they did not get out of the forest

00:28:13.760 and were very hungry, for they had nothing to eat but two or three berries which grew on the ground.

00:28:19.320 And as they were so weary that their legs would carry them no longer,

00:28:22.580 they lay down beneath a tree and fell asleep. So they've come to the end of their own devices

00:28:27.780 and they've been abandoned and betrayed by their parents. And so that places them even deeper in

00:28:35.160 the woods, as we find out in the next paragraph. It was now three mornings since they had left their

00:28:41.060 father's house. They began to walk again, but they always got deeper into the forest. And if help did

00:28:47.720 not come soon, they must die of hunger and weariness. When it was midday, they saw a beautiful snow-white

00:28:55.160 bird sitting on a bough, which sang so delightfully that they stood still and listened to it. And when

00:29:00.600 it had finished its song, it spread its wings and flew away before them. And they followed it until

00:29:06.420 they reached a little house on the roof of which it alighted. And so the evil witch, who we'll encounter 0.71

00:29:14.860 soon, sends out a attractive and welcoming avatar, familiar, you might say, to attract the children.

00:29:23.600 And so this is the second time, third time in the story where we see the facade of beauty and

00:29:31.180 attractiveness, the white bird and its attractive song, serving as the camouflage that hides something

00:29:42.320 much, much darker and more malevolent. So this whole story is a warning about vice

00:29:50.800 presenting itself as virtue. And the bird is a representation of that. The children are attracted

00:30:00.580 by something that's beautiful and apparently welcoming. And it entices them in their desperation

00:30:10.500 into the evil witch's lair. Now that motif of the positive being used as camouflage for the 0.72

00:30:22.000 negative is immediately re-presented in the form of the house itself. They followed the bird until

00:30:31.800 they reached a little house on the roof of which it alighted. And when they came quite up to the little

00:30:36.760 house, they saw that it was built out of bread and covered with cakes and that the windows were of clear

00:30:43.440 sugar. We will set to work on that, said Hansel, and have a good meal. I'll eat a bit of the roof and

00:30:49.660 thou, Gretel, can eat some of the window. It will taste sweet. Hansel reached up above and broke off a

00:30:55.840 little of the roof to try how it tasted. And Gretel leant against the window and nibbled at the panes.

00:31:00.960 Then a soft voice cried from the room. Okay, so what might we conclude at this point? This looks a little

00:31:12.840 too good to be true. So you have children who are lost in the wilderness in consequence of their parents'

00:31:19.460 maliciousness and weakness and malevolence. And they are as deep into the woods as they possibly can get,

00:31:26.060 which means that they're in real trouble. And a beautiful bird appears and leads them not only to

00:31:32.520 a house, but a house that's made out of, that's literally made out of candy. And so that all screams

00:31:39.740 too good to be true. And it's a warning to everyone, children included, that it's often necessary to look

00:31:49.740 behind the facade, especially in a circumstance where things do seem to be too good to be true.

00:31:59.380 Then a soft voice cried from the room. Nibble, nibble, gnaw. Who is nibbling at my little house? 0.88

00:32:05.160 The children answered. The wind, the wind, the heaven-born wind, and went out eating without

00:32:10.980 disturbing themselves. Hansel, who thought the roof tasted very nice, tore down a great piece of it,

00:32:15.900 and Gretel pushed out the whole of one round windowpane, sat down and enjoyed herself with it.

00:32:22.200 Suddenly the door opened and a very, very old woman who supported herself on crutches came 1.00

00:32:26.480 creeping out. Hansel and Gretel were so terribly frightened that they let fall what they had in

00:32:32.060 their hands. The old woman, however, nodded her head and said, Oh, you dear children, who has brought

00:32:39.180 you here? Do come in and stay with me. No harm shall happen to you. She took them both by the hand

00:32:45.780 and led them into her little house. Then good food was set before them, milk and pancakes and sugar,

00:32:51.760 apples and nuts. Afterwards, two pretty little beds were covered with clean white linen, and Hansel

00:32:57.220 and Gretel lay down in them and thought they were in heaven. There's a deep motif here of, as I alluded

00:33:06.480 to earlier, of the pathologies of camouflaged virtue signaling. So, children are very dependent, and

00:33:15.160 they're dependent primarily on maternal benevolence. And what that means is that that maternal benevolence

00:33:24.340 can be gamed by pathological actors who can accrue to themselves all of the reputational virtue of the

00:33:33.860 positive mother. You can think about this politically as well. The maternal force that cares for everything 1.00

00:33:42.200 and including the planet and everything on it, but in reality is doing nothing but serving its own

00:33:49.740 malicious and carnivorous or even cannibalistic urges. It's a very dark story. And so,

00:33:58.820 the worst evil takes the greatest good and perverts it to the worst possible end. And that's what we see

00:34:09.040 happening here. The old woman had only pretended to be so kind. She was in reality a wicked witch who lay 0.97

00:34:17.060 in wait for children and had only built the little house of bread in order to entice them.

00:34:22.740 As we celebrate Independence Day this July, we're reminded of the freedoms our founders fought to

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00:35:34.960 When a child fell into her power, she killed it, cooked it, and ate it. And that was a feast day for

00:35:43.200 her. Witches have red eyes and cannot see far, but they have a keen scent like the beasts and are aware 1.00

00:35:49.640 when human beings draw near. When Hansel and Gretel came into her neighborhood, she laughed maliciously 0.95

00:35:54.760 and said mockingly, I have them. They will not escape me again. Now, there's another motif here apart from

00:36:03.880 the pathology of glorious, maternal, compassionate virtue signaling, masking, carnivorous, or cannibalistic

00:36:19.260 urges. And that is the danger of maternal hyper-solicitude, right? So, human beings have the

00:36:31.520 longest developmental period of any creature. And it can last almost two decades, let's say.

00:36:42.720 And what that means is that a force that powerful can easily go wrong. A mother shouldn't be so kind.

00:36:57.160 She should take care of her children, but not offer them too much, too much being a convenient house 0.98

00:37:06.660 in the midst of danger. But not only a house, a house literally made out of candy and cake.

00:37:14.840 The mother who offers her children too much, who does everything for them, who 0.91

00:37:19.480 goes above and beyond the call of duty to announce to the world her virtuous compassion as the highest

00:37:28.780 possible moral virtue, who ends up devouring her own children. So, if it looks and sounds too good to be 0.57

00:37:44.140 true, there's some real possibility that it is. I remember my mother told me once, my mother,

00:37:51.840 she died very recently, last year, she's a very agreeable person and a compassionate person.

00:37:59.160 But she had a spine and she didn't overindulge her children or overprotect them. And I left home when

00:38:09.520 I was about 16. I'd been having some friction with my father, which was some him and some me,

00:38:17.660 perhaps even mostly me. And then once I left and went to college, our relationship re-normalized and

00:38:27.440 maintained itself quite positively from that time forward. My mom said to me,

00:38:34.160 after I had returned from college, when we were talking about having left and the fact that things

00:38:40.840 had settled up, she said, you know, and the conflict that accompanied my leaving, she said,

00:38:46.280 you know, if it was too good at home, you'd never leave. And I thought that was, that was my mother

00:38:51.280 in a nutshell, because she was a very pleasant person and a very caring person and hospitable, but

00:38:56.260 she had enough sense to know that a little bit of pushing her children out of the nest was 0.98

00:39:02.160 actually a very positive thing. And this evil witch is all too good and announcing that continually. 1.00

00:39:11.240 Early in the morning before the children were awake, she was already up. And when she saw both of

00:39:15.720 them sleeping and looking so pretty with their plump red cheeks, she muttered to herself,

00:39:20.160 that will be a dainty mouthful. Then she seized Hansel with her shriveled hand, carried him into a 1.00

00:39:26.700 little stable and shut him in behind a grated door. He might scream as he liked. That was of no use.

00:39:33.280 Then she went to Gretel, shook her till she awoke and cried, get up, lazy thing, fetch some water

00:39:38.720 and cook something good for thy brother. He's in the stable outside and is to be made fat. And so

00:39:45.200 that's an interesting twist in the story too, because mothers obviously feed their children and

00:39:53.200 that's part of maternal behavior, but to overfeed a child is again, to make a pathology of care, 0.94

00:40:04.180 right? To make a show of that maternal solicitude at the cost of the child's health and wellbeing. 1.00

00:40:12.220 And so that's the meaning of the motif, that she's fattening up her ersatz son, her temporary son, 0.62

00:40:21.640 for no other reason than to devour him.

00:40:25.460 He is in the stable outside and is to be made fat. When he is fat, I will eat him. 0.99

00:40:31.320 Gretel began to weep bitterly, but it was all in vain. She was forced to do what the wicked witch 0.99

00:40:35.680 ordered her. And now the best food was cooked for poor Hansel. But Gretel got nothing but crab shells.

00:40:43.020 Every morning, the woman crept to the little stable and cried, Hansel, stretch out thy finger that I

00:40:47.240 may feel if thou wilt soon be fat. Hansel, however, stretched out a little bone to her. And the old

00:40:53.280 woman who had dim eyes could not see it and thought it was Hansel's finger and was astonished that there

00:40:58.200 was no way of fattening him. Well, that's another indication of Hansel's self-sufficiency. He's

00:41:05.520 attentive enough and intelligent enough to notice what the old woman is up to quite clearly, not to 0.99

00:41:15.640 deceive himself about her intent. And in consequence of that careful attentiveness and refusal to deceive

00:41:23.020 himself, he plays a trick on her and indicates to her that he is by no means optimally positioned to

00:41:33.080 serve as a meal. When four weeks had gone by and Hansel still continued thin, she was seized with

00:41:39.240 impatience and would not wait any longer. Hold on, Gretel, she cried to the girl. Be active and bring

00:41:45.220 some water. Let Hansel be fat or lean. Tomorrow I will kill him and cook him. Ah, how the poor little

00:41:52.580 sister did lament when she had to fetch the water and how her tears did flow down over her cheeks. 0.99

00:41:58.460 Again, an indication that she really loved her brother. A contrary attitude might be that she was

00:42:04.680 quite relieved that it was Hansel who was serving as main course rather than her. Dear God, do help us,

00:42:13.220 she cried. If the wild beasts in the forests had but devoured us, we should at any rate have died

00:42:22.360 together. That's hammering home that motif of union in the face of adversity. Just keep thy noise to

00:42:31.060 thyself, said the old woman. All that won't help thee at all. Early in the morning, Gretel had to go out

00:42:36.740 and hang up the cauldron with the water and light the fire. We will bake first, said the old woman.

00:42:42.060 I have already heated the oven and kneaded the dough. She pushed poor Gretel out to the oven, from which

00:42:47.820 flames of fire were already darting. Creep in, said the witch. See if it is properly heated,

00:42:53.940 so that we can shut the brand in. And when once Gretel was inside, she intended to shut the oven 0.66

00:43:00.640 and let her bake in there. Then she would eat her too. But Gretel, also being an awake child,

00:43:08.180 properly taken care of, let's say by her brother, unwilling to deceive herself about the motivation

00:43:14.180 of the woman who's just too good to be true. But Gretel saw what she had in her mind and said,

00:43:19.720 I do not know how I am to do it. How do you get in? Silly ghost, said the old woman. The door is big

00:43:26.420 enough. Look, I can get in myself. And she crept up and thrust her head into the oven. Then Gretel, 0.90

00:43:34.240 who's an enterprising young woman, gave her a push that drove her far into it and shut the iron door 1.00

00:43:39.300 and fastened the bolt. Oh, then she began to howl quite horribly, but Gretel ran away and the godless

00:43:45.500 witch was miserably burnt to death. So Hansel and Gretel are awake enough to defend themselves

00:43:53.060 against the evil machinations of the camouflaged witch, the witch camouflaged in virtue. And,

00:44:02.800 you know, one of the things Carl Jung said about pathological families was that

00:44:07.300 children are also often offered an easy way out by an over-solicitous parent, for example, but that

00:44:17.080 they don't necessarily have to take the bait. So you could imagine a lonely mother with a child who

00:44:25.240 has, oh, maybe a cold. And the mother is hoping that the child could stay home from school so that she

00:44:35.080 has company and she suggests to the child verbally and non-verbally that his or her state of physical

00:44:47.320 health is sufficiently compromised so that staying home from school might be justifiable. And the child

00:44:55.960 knows full well that he's not particularly sick, but takes the bait and then enters into a

00:45:04.120 pathological covenant with the mother such that he exaggerates his proclivity for illness and brings

00:45:15.740 illness onto himself in so doing. And she benefits from the fact that she can make her maternal solicitude 0.99

00:45:22.920 manifest publicly, benefit from that display of virtue, and also not have to be alone.

00:45:29.980 And so Hansel and Gretel are not playing games of that sort. Maybe because they're bonded together and

00:45:38.560 taking care of each other, maybe because they're oriented properly, they're capable of fending for

00:45:44.340 themselves and taking action when necessary and not falling prey to the machinations of the over-demonstrative

00:45:58.200 mother figure who in truth wants to devour them. Children have a moral responsibility too, you know,

00:46:07.920 I mean, and that's a tricky thing to manage, but it takes two to tango. And that doesn't mean I'm

00:46:15.360 blaming the child in situations where the family becomes pathological. No, I had people in my clinical

00:46:21.120 practice who were offered pathological invitations, let's say by their parents, and they resisted instead

00:46:28.740 of falling prey to them and managed to free themselves from the situation. And so, you know,

00:46:36.200 everybody has their destiny and that includes children. And we make our beds even when we're

00:46:42.080 very young and then are required to lie in them.

00:46:45.380 You know what happens every summer? We all get a little too comfortable with letting our routine slide.

00:46:51.900 We sleep in, we take vacation, unplug from everything, and hey, that's great. But here's the thing.

00:46:56.960 Sometimes that break from our routine becomes a break from the stuff that actually matters,

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00:47:44.620 Gretel ran like lightning to Hansel, opened his little stable and cried, Hansel, we're saved.

00:47:53.080 The old witch is dead. So immediately her first response is to go rescue her brother. Then Hansel 0.98

00:47:58.320 sprang out like a bird from its cage when the door is open for it. How they did rejoice and embrace

00:48:03.200 each other and dance about and kiss each other. And as they no longer had any need to fear her,

00:48:08.880 they went into the witch's house. You know, and that is indication of some real bravery on their

00:48:16.780 part as well and some curiosity because you could easily imagine that their first impulse would be

00:48:22.300 to get the hell away from that place as rapidly as possible. But they're courageous enough to

00:48:28.200 investigate. And what they find is in every corner there stood chests full of pearls and jewels.

00:48:34.300 These are far better than pebbles, said Hansel, and thrust into his pockets whatever could be

00:48:38.960 got in. And Gretel said, I too will take something home with me and filled her pinafore full.

00:48:44.340 But now we will go away, said Hansel, that we may get out of the witch's forest.

00:48:48.660 So why did the children find a great treasure in the witch's house? Well, they found a great treasure 0.91

00:48:55.240 in the defeated witch's house, right? That's a crucial distinction. And the greatest treasure that

00:49:02.100 children can find is the

00:49:05.760 means of assuring their own

00:49:11.420 mature independence. You remember now,

00:49:18.000 Hansel found pebbles that would help him, used pebbles that would help him find his way home. And he

00:49:23.380 makes an allusion here to the fact that these pearls are better than the pebbles that he had.

00:49:28.820 And that's an indication that, like it's an echoing or a parallelism, indicating that

00:49:35.420 the treasure that they have now found is the treasure that always helps everyone

00:49:43.280 adventure and return home. Well, that's a genuine maturity. And it's a maturity that an independence

00:49:51.760 that the children found in being forthright in maintaining their union in love and in defeating

00:50:00.960 the over-solicitous maternal embrace. When they had walked for two hours, they came to a great

00:50:10.080 piece of water. We cannot get over, said Hansel. I see no foot plank and no bridge and no boat crosses

00:50:16.400 either, answered Gretel. But a white duck is swimming there. If I ask her, she will help us over. Then

00:50:22.440 she cried, little duck, little duck, dost thou see? Hansel and Gretel are waiting for thee. There's

00:50:27.760 never a plank or a bridge in sight. Take us across on the back, so white. Well, it's a magical transition

00:50:34.080 back to the familiarity of household and father. And the water serves as that bridge and the duck as the

00:50:47.680 magical means of transport from the ultimately unknown where the evil force of maternal devouring

00:50:57.680 lies in wait. It's a transition point back to the normal world. And then there's an echo here again

00:51:04.520 of the thoughtfulness of the children because the duck came to them and Hansel seated himself on its

00:51:10.140 back and told his sister to sit by him. No, replied Gretel, that will be too heavy for the little duck.

00:51:15.700 She shall take us across one after the other. So even under those circumstances,

00:51:21.600 the children are looking out for each other. Hansel invites Gretel to sit by him, but they're also

00:51:27.480 paying attention to the circumstances, even in the midst of their good fortune, so that they don't

00:51:32.840 take undue advantage of what's being offered to them. And so they're patient. They allow the bird

00:51:38.840 to transport them one at a time. And that also ensures their safety. So they're actually very

00:51:44.520 wise little children and things work out reasonably well for them. The good little duck did so. And when

00:51:51.860 they were once safely across and had walked for a short time, the forest seemed to be more and more

00:51:57.340 familiar to them. And at length, they saw from afar their father's house. Then they began to run,

00:52:03.820 rushed into the parlor and threw themselves into their father's arms. The man had not known one

00:52:09.180 happy hour since he had left the children in the forest. Well, I should hope not. The woman, however, 1.00

00:52:15.280 was dead. Gretel emptied her pinafore until pearls and precious stones ran about the room and Hansel

00:52:22.220 threw one handful after another out of his pocket to add to them. Then all anxiety was at an end and

00:52:29.540 they lived together in perfect happiness. My tale is done. There runs a mouse. Whoever catches it may

00:52:37.240 make himself a big fur cap out of it. Hard to tell what that ending means. So, well, the children have an

00:52:44.040 adventure. They, it's an initiation. They go into the depths of the forest in consequence of a profound

00:52:54.300 betrayal. They encounter the, one of the darkest extant spirits, that devouring force of maternal 0.88

00:53:04.320 over-solicitude. They keep their wits about them. They see through the facade. They defeat the evil

00:53:14.180 witch. They maintain their partnership. They capture the treasure of great price in consequence of their

00:53:22.640 maturity, bravery, and attentiveness. And they make their way home. And that's the end of Hansel and Gretel.

00:53:34.320 Thank you.

00:53:37.000 надо Dan.

00:53:40.080 Thank you so much for some of these stories.

00:53:46.880 You can definitely reach out to him next week for the first time. 0.95

00:53:49.560 Now fuck, sit here and take a few of the stuff on screen and realize how we album. 0.99

00:53:54.060 Having judgment approach 0.99

00:53:57.520 you even tonight's perception ofχoting...

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - July 21, 2025

564. The Meaning Of： Hansel & Gretel

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