The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

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00:00:30.000 Hello, everybody.

00:00:31.960 So, in the past, I have told or read stories for children and offered an analysis.

00:00:43.060 And I recently released a new episode of that sort discussing the Grimm's Brothers, Snow White.

00:00:52.220 And people seem pretty happy with that.

00:00:54.620 I'll read you a couple of comments.

00:00:56.780 Can we have a whole psychoanalytic series on fairy tales?

00:01:00.000 So many hidden lessons.

00:01:02.100 It also reminds me of the Peterson lectures I listened to on The Lion King, Peter Pan, and Pinocchio.

00:01:08.480 That was some years ago.

00:01:10.180 Yes, more of these.

00:01:11.980 Please do more of these.

00:01:13.700 All the best from the UK.

00:01:14.920 Storytime with Dr. Peterson.

00:01:17.020 Well, the episode proved quite popular and people's responses were very positive.

00:01:24.980 And I like doing narrative analysis.

00:01:27.580 Hard by a great forest dwelt a poor woodcutter with his wife and two children.

00:01:43.520 The boy was called Hansel and the girl Gretel.

00:01:46.620 He had little to bite and to break.

00:01:49.300 And once, when great scarcity fell on the land, he could no longer procure daily bread.

00:01:55.220 Now, when he thought this over by night in his bed and tossed about in his anxiety,

00:01:59.220 he groaned and said to his wife, more about her in a moment,

00:02:02.560 what is to become of us?

00:02:04.680 How are we to feed our poor children when we no longer have anything even for ourselves?

00:02:10.280 Now, you see, there's something troublesome right there already.

00:02:14.780 Because his priorities are backwards.

00:02:21.480 He says, when we no longer have anything even for ourselves.

00:02:25.440 Well, a father with his priorities right would be more concerned about his children's hunger than his own.

00:02:31.640 And so, the teller of the tale, the writer, the author of the tale sets up the situation for us with that foolishness.

00:02:40.880 Because this woodcutter is selfish and, as we'll see, also weak.

00:02:48.380 And that places his children at great risk.

00:02:53.980 How are we to feed our poor children when we no longer have anything even for ourselves?

00:02:59.400 Prioritizing himself first.

00:03:01.960 I'll tell you what, husband answered the woman, early tomorrow morning,

00:03:05.480 we will take the children out into the forest to where it is the thickest.

00:03:09.900 There we will light a fire for them, and give each of them one piece of bread more,

00:03:15.460 and then we'll go to our work and leave them alone.

00:03:17.860 They will not find their way home again, and we shall be rid of them.

00:03:23.000 No, wife, said the man, I will not do that.

00:03:26.080 How can I bear to leave my children alone in the forest?

00:03:28.520 The wild animals would soon come and tear them to pieces.

00:03:31.660 Oh, thou fool, said she, then we must all four die of hunger.

00:03:37.380 Thou mayest as well plane the planks for our coffins.

00:03:40.860 And she left him no piece until he consented.

00:03:43.480 But I feel very sorry for the poor children.

00:03:45.720 All the same, said the man.

00:03:47.120 Well, there's quite a tale of domestic catastrophe in that opening paragraph,

00:03:51.800 because his wife, who turns out to be the children's stepmother, as we see in the next paragraph,

00:03:59.400 is quite the horrid piece of work.

00:04:02.560 And he doesn't stand up to her.

00:04:05.720 He proclaims that he feels sorry for his children,

00:04:09.200 but he doesn't throw his wife out of the house,

00:04:12.660 which would be approximately the appropriate move under such circumstances,

00:04:16.660 when her proclivity is to not only ensure that she's fed first,

00:04:23.380 which makes her a very bad mother, 0.96

00:04:25.180 but also to trick the children,

00:04:28.380 take them to where it's maximally frightening,

00:04:30.580 the darkest part of the forest,

00:04:33.020 leave them there,

00:04:34.440 and then harass her weak husband to death until he agrees. 1.00

00:04:39.100 Now, another thing we might give some thought to with this opening is

00:04:44.080 why the poverty exists.

00:04:48.400 And we could feel sorry for the poor woodcutter and his poor new wife,

00:04:55.020 or we could note very carefully that their poverty might have something to do

00:05:01.240 with their misplaced priorities and their selfishness.

00:05:03.700 So let me give you a counterexample.

00:05:05.640 In the story of Elijah in the Old Testament,

00:05:09.600 Elijah is the first prophet who identifies the voice of conscience with the divine,

00:05:16.920 which is a major psychological transformation, right?

00:05:19.960 Now, Elijah is the enemy of the nature worshipers 1.00

00:05:23.680 who are led by an evil queen named Jezebel,

00:05:26.980 who's an arrogant and narcissistic, 0.87

00:05:30.940 foreign, malign foreign influence on the Israelite nation.

00:05:36.040 And she, in her arrogance and haughtiness, 0.97

00:05:41.560 brings the nation to ruin,

00:05:43.520 and she persecutes Elijah for his forthrightness

00:05:48.360 and his willingness to stand for the one true God

00:05:51.480 against the nature worshipers,

00:05:53.300 which is something to think about in these most modern of times.

00:05:57.580 In any case, Elijah is running away from Jezebel 0.69

00:06:01.360 Jezebel and her forces after having defeated the worshipers of nature. 0.97

00:06:07.580 And God sends him to a poor widow,

00:06:11.240 and who, if I remember correctly, he meets by a well,

00:06:14.360 and she offers to share her remaining food with him.

00:06:19.820 She just has enough flour for one meal for her and her son,

00:06:24.320 and enough flour and oil for one meal for her and her son.

00:06:28.040 But she offers to share it with this stranger,

00:06:33.340 this strange prophet.

00:06:34.840 And then it turns out that

00:06:36.380 if she hits the barrel of flour,

00:06:40.060 more flour appears,

00:06:41.700 and the oil magically refills

00:06:45.140 so that the prophet and the woman, 0.62

00:06:48.680 the widow, the poor widow, and her son

00:06:50.600 subsist on virtually nothing for a very long period of time.

00:06:54.820 And you might ask,

00:06:56.000 well, what does that mean?

00:06:57.660 Apart from the, let's say, childish, magical element of it,

00:07:02.620 it means that

00:07:03.860 those who

00:07:06.280 are generous in their

00:07:09.560 attitude,

00:07:10.640 and that might be particularly true of food,

00:07:13.440 because human beings share food,

00:07:15.700 are most likely to be provisioned

00:07:19.280 appropriately over the longest period of time.

00:07:22.140 So if you're generous and hospitable,

00:07:26.080 then

00:07:26.560 the probability that you'll

00:07:29.700 stand at the center of a productive and abundant community is

00:07:33.100 radically elevated.

00:07:34.680 Whereas if you're only concerned about yourself,

00:07:37.240 and you ensure that

00:07:38.240 you're the one that's fed first,

00:07:40.020 let's say, even

00:07:40.900 before your children,

00:07:42.820 then that's reflective of an attitude

00:07:44.820 that's going to do nothing but

00:07:46.380 keep you admired in poverty

00:07:48.480 forever.

00:07:50.000 You and your society.

00:07:52.060 So,

00:07:53.240 strangely enough,

00:07:54.260 paradoxically enough,

00:07:55.740 an attitude of generous hospitality and sharing

00:07:58.240 is the best way to

00:07:59.840 facilitate

00:08:01.080 social interaction in such a way that

00:08:03.760 everything becomes abundant.

00:08:05.960 And the

00:08:07.420 wife of the woodcutter

00:08:10.000 is certainly

00:08:11.660 selfish and cruel. 0.61

00:08:14.120 And at minimum,

00:08:15.280 the woodcutter himself is a

00:08:16.760 weak pushover

00:08:18.100 that's very much also

00:08:19.640 reminiscent of the situation

00:08:21.100 with Eve and Adam,

00:08:22.660 because Eve is the

00:08:24.180 primary

00:08:24.820 sinner, let's say,

00:08:26.220 or the initiator of the fall.

00:08:27.980 But Adam is too weak to stand up

00:08:30.100 against her.

00:08:30.980 And, you know,

00:08:32.220 if there's ever a time

00:08:33.280 for a father

00:08:34.580 to make a stand

00:08:35.500 in relationship

00:08:36.640 to his children,

00:08:37.780 it would be

00:08:38.740 at the time

00:08:39.880 when

00:08:40.280 his

00:08:41.140 new wife,

00:08:42.980 who is not the

00:08:43.980 children's

00:08:44.860 biological mother,

00:08:46.540 is

00:08:46.920 harboring

00:08:47.760 selfish and murderous

00:08:49.400 thoughts towards them.

00:08:50.800 So,

00:08:51.360 that kind of sums up

00:08:52.580 the domestic situation.

00:08:55.020 The two children

00:08:56.360 had also not been able

00:08:57.460 to sleep for hunger,

00:08:58.380 and had heard

00:08:59.780 what their stepmother, 1.00

00:09:01.200 there we go,

00:09:02.100 had said to their father.

00:09:03.040 Now, why is that relevant?

00:09:04.580 Well,

00:09:05.480 your risk

00:09:06.220 for being abused

00:09:07.740 in a domestic household

00:09:09.520 if you're a child

00:09:10.420 is radically elevated

00:09:12.680 if you have a step-parent.

00:09:15.020 I think the risk

00:09:15.980 for abuse

00:09:16.880 is a hundred times greater.

00:09:18.500 It's some ridiculous

00:09:19.620 amount.

00:09:20.880 And so,

00:09:21.420 these old stories

00:09:22.940 point out

00:09:24.240 the danger of

00:09:25.460 non-biological

00:09:27.300 relationship

00:09:28.600 in the

00:09:29.800 hothouse

00:09:30.560 of a domestic

00:09:31.260 situation,

00:09:32.260 especially under

00:09:33.080 conditions of scarcity

00:09:34.640 and privation.

00:09:36.580 And,

00:09:36.820 that's not

00:09:37.660 particularly

00:09:38.280 politically correct,

00:09:39.460 but

00:09:39.600 raising children

00:09:41.060 is a difficult

00:09:42.160 endeavor,

00:09:44.680 and

00:09:44.960 you need

00:09:45.980 everything

00:09:46.400 that you can

00:09:47.860 possibly have

00:09:48.620 working for you

00:09:49.520 to ensure that

00:09:50.360 you do it properly.

00:09:51.840 And one of the things

00:09:52.820 that

00:09:53.200 is useful

00:09:54.880 to have

00:09:55.220 working for you

00:09:55.980 is biological

00:09:57.320 relationship

00:09:58.200 with the children

00:09:59.220 whose care

00:10:00.320 you're charged with.

00:10:02.860 The two children

00:10:03.840 had also not been

00:10:04.660 able to sleep

00:10:05.220 for hunger,

00:10:07.240 unfortunate as they

00:10:08.360 are in this poor

00:10:09.260 and selfish household, 0.75

00:10:10.700 and had heard

00:10:11.200 what their stepmother 1.00

00:10:12.520 had said to their

00:10:13.320 father.

00:10:14.000 Gretel wept bitter

00:10:14.860 tears

00:10:15.320 and said to Hansel,

00:10:16.980 Now all is over

00:10:18.620 with us.

00:10:19.940 Be quiet,

00:10:20.780 Gretel,

00:10:21.120 said Hansel.

00:10:22.100 Do not distress

00:10:22.960 thyself.

00:10:23.560 I will

00:10:24.040 soon find

00:10:24.980 a way

00:10:25.400 to help

00:10:26.200 us.

00:10:26.880 Now,

00:10:27.300 you see,

00:10:28.320 that contrasts

00:10:30.240 Hansel and Gretel

00:10:31.020 with the stepmother

00:10:32.480 and

00:10:32.860 the woodcutter,

00:10:35.300 the father,

00:10:36.160 because

00:10:36.600 the parents

00:10:38.980 look out

00:10:40.140 for themselves.

00:10:41.540 That's their

00:10:42.200 first impulse,

00:10:43.640 even in a murderous

00:10:44.940 way,

00:10:45.600 whereas Hansel

00:10:46.780 and Gretel 0.64

00:10:47.340 make a team,

00:10:49.000 and Hansel's

00:10:51.640 response to

00:10:52.880 Gretel's distress

00:10:53.560 is to say that

00:10:54.640 he will find a way

00:10:56.040 to help the both

00:10:57.180 of them,

00:10:57.600 so he doesn't

00:10:58.280 concern himself

00:10:59.020 with his own

00:10:59.640 immediate survival.

00:11:01.560 He extends

00:11:03.440 a hospitable

00:11:05.120 hand and a

00:11:06.440 brave hand to

00:11:07.140 his sister.

00:11:09.980 And when the

00:11:10.340 old folks had

00:11:11.000 fallen asleep,

00:11:11.660 he got up,

00:11:12.200 put on his

00:11:12.640 little coat,

00:11:13.200 opened the

00:11:13.600 door below,

00:11:15.220 and crept

00:11:15.720 outside.

00:11:16.400 The moon

00:11:16.880 shone brightly

00:11:17.600 and the

00:11:18.480 white pebbles

00:11:19.060 which lay

00:11:19.520 in front of

00:11:19.920 the house

00:11:20.220 glittered

00:11:20.880 like real

00:11:21.640 silver pennies.

00:11:23.140 Hansel

00:11:23.420 stooped and

00:11:24.020 put as many

00:11:24.580 of them

00:11:24.900 in the

00:11:25.380 little pocket

00:11:25.840 of his

00:11:26.120 coat as

00:11:26.520 he could

00:11:26.740 possibly

00:11:27.140 get in.

00:11:27.860 Then he

00:11:28.140 went back

00:11:28.520 and said

00:11:28.840 to Gretel,

00:11:29.340 be comforted,

00:11:29.960 dear little

00:11:30.360 sister,

00:11:30.780 and sleep

00:11:31.080 in peace.

00:11:31.860 God will

00:11:32.260 not forsake

00:11:33.040 us.

00:11:34.040 So Hansel

00:11:35.620 is emblematic

00:11:36.860 of the boy

00:11:37.720 who can find

00:11:38.560 the shining

00:11:39.940 path even

00:11:40.960 in the

00:11:41.360 darkness.

00:11:42.920 And he

00:11:43.460 lay down

00:11:43.840 again in

00:11:44.200 his bed.

00:11:45.360 When day

00:11:45.980 dawned

00:11:46.820 before the

00:11:47.420 sun had

00:11:47.760 risen,

00:11:48.140 the woman 0.98

00:11:48.440 came and

00:11:48.860 awoke the

00:11:49.260 two children

00:11:49.740 saying,

00:11:50.160 Get up,

00:11:50.560 you sluggards, 1.00

00:11:51.360 we are going

00:11:51.940 into the

00:11:52.320 forest to

00:11:52.800 fetch wood.

00:11:54.000 She gave

00:11:54.420 each a

00:11:54.800 little piece

00:11:55.240 of bread

00:11:55.580 and said,

00:11:56.280 There is

00:11:56.820 something for

00:11:57.260 your dinner,

00:11:57.740 but do not

00:11:58.180 eat it up

00:11:58.600 before then,

00:11:59.800 for you will

00:12:00.240 get nothing

00:12:00.700 else.

00:12:02.140 Gretel

00:12:02.580 took the

00:12:03.220 bread under

00:12:03.600 her apron

00:12:04.100 as Hansel

00:12:04.720 had the

00:12:05.180 stones in

00:12:05.660 his pocket.

00:12:06.720 Then they

00:12:07.060 all set out

00:12:07.600 together on

00:12:08.100 the way

00:12:08.340 to the

00:12:08.580 forest.

00:12:09.440 When they

00:12:09.780 had walked

00:12:10.120 a short

00:12:10.500 time,

00:12:11.200 Hansel

00:12:11.620 stood still

00:12:12.480 and peeped

00:12:12.980 back at

00:12:13.380 the house

00:12:13.800 and did

00:12:14.560 so again

00:12:15.080 and again.

00:12:16.220 So he's a

00:12:16.700 thoughtful boy

00:12:17.420 and he's

00:12:18.080 planning his

00:12:19.600 return home,

00:12:21.180 right?

00:12:21.540 And that's

00:12:22.120 often the

00:12:22.620 end of a

00:12:23.100 story.

00:12:23.660 How do you

00:12:24.260 return home

00:12:25.000 like the

00:12:25.400 hobbit does

00:12:25.960 at the end

00:12:26.440 of the,

00:12:27.220 well,

00:12:27.800 the hobbit

00:12:28.220 and at the

00:12:28.660 end of

00:12:28.880 the Lord

00:12:29.180 of the

00:12:29.400 Rings,

00:12:30.040 right?

00:12:30.800 To wander

00:12:31.640 out into

00:12:32.120 the world

00:12:32.520 and to

00:12:32.880 find your

00:12:33.240 way home

00:12:33.660 transformed.

00:12:35.760 Then they

00:12:36.360 all set out

00:12:36.920 together on

00:12:37.440 the way to

00:12:37.780 the forest.

00:12:38.480 When they

00:12:38.800 had walked

00:12:39.120 a short

00:12:39.480 time,

00:12:39.920 Hansel

00:12:40.220 stood still

00:12:40.840 and peeped

00:12:41.240 back at

00:12:41.660 the house

00:12:42.000 and did so

00:12:42.560 again and

00:12:42.960 again.

00:12:43.920 His father

00:12:44.400 said,

00:12:44.800 Hansel,

00:12:45.340 what art thou

00:12:46.180 looking at

00:12:46.820 there and

00:12:47.300 staying behind

00:12:48.180 for?

00:12:49.200 Mind what

00:12:49.800 thou art

00:12:50.220 about,

00:12:51.140 mind what

00:12:52.040 thou art

00:12:52.560 about and

00:12:53.180 do not

00:12:53.500 forget how

00:12:53.960 to use

00:12:54.260 thy legs.

00:12:55.800 Ah,

00:12:56.160 father said,

00:12:56.720 Hansel,

00:12:57.080 I'm looking

00:12:57.500 at my

00:12:57.760 little white

00:12:58.220 cat,

00:12:59.040 which is

00:12:59.380 sitting up

00:12:59.760 on the

00:13:00.000 roof and

00:13:00.320 wants to

00:13:00.800 say goodbye

00:13:01.240 to me.

00:13:02.140 The wife 0.55

00:13:02.520 said,

00:13:03.020 Fool,

00:13:03.760 that is

00:13:04.800 not thy

00:13:05.200 little cat,

00:13:06.080 that is the

00:13:06.780 morning sun

00:13:07.400 which is

00:13:07.780 shining on

00:13:08.280 the chimneys.

00:13:09.260 Hansel,

00:13:09.760 however,

00:13:10.140 had not been

00:13:10.720 looking at

00:13:11.200 the cat,

00:13:11.940 but had been

00:13:12.460 constantly

00:13:12.900 throwing out

00:13:13.780 one of the

00:13:14.420 white pebble

00:13:14.940 stones from

00:13:16.860 his pocket

00:13:17.380 onto the

00:13:17.880 road.

00:13:19.020 When they

00:13:19.480 had reached

00:13:19.860 the middle

00:13:20.220 of the

00:13:20.520 forest,

00:13:20.900 the father

00:13:21.220 said,

00:13:21.600 Now,

00:13:21.860 children,

00:13:22.240 pile up

00:13:22.640 some wood

00:13:23.020 and I

00:13:23.280 will light

00:13:23.640 a fire

00:13:24.100 that you

00:13:24.700 may not

00:13:25.080 be cold.

00:13:25.840 So he's

00:13:26.500 couching

00:13:27.020 his malevolence,

00:13:28.900 his cowardly

00:13:29.700 malevolence,

00:13:30.760 in a facade

00:13:32.800 or patina

00:13:33.700 of benevolence.

00:13:35.960 He's out

00:13:36.680 in the forest

00:13:37.240 taking care

00:13:37.880 of his

00:13:38.140 children.

00:13:38.660 And that's

00:13:39.700 a motif that

00:13:40.680 echoes through 1.00

00:13:41.280 this story.

00:13:41.860 the contrast

00:13:43.680 between the

00:13:45.300 false facade

00:13:46.980 of parental,

00:13:49.680 paternal,

00:13:50.340 maternal care

00:13:51.180 and the

00:13:52.000 underlying

00:13:52.720 malevolent

00:13:54.180 reality.

00:13:56.120 Hansel and

00:13:56.620 Gretel gathered 0.94

00:13:57.240 brushwood together

00:13:58.040 as high as

00:13:58.560 a little hill.

00:13:59.540 The brushwood

00:14:00.180 was lighted and

00:14:00.860 when the flames

00:14:01.400 were burning

00:14:01.800 very high,

00:14:02.340 the woman 0.98

00:14:02.620 said,

00:14:03.120 Now,

00:14:03.480 children,

00:14:04.240 lay yourself

00:14:04.860 down by the

00:14:05.540 fire and rest.

00:14:06.360 We will go into

00:14:07.260 the forest and

00:14:08.000 cut some wood.

00:14:08.620 When we have

00:14:09.480 done,

00:14:09.800 we will come

00:14:10.240 back and

00:14:10.700 fetch you

00:14:11.160 away.

00:14:11.880 So,

00:14:12.120 the same

00:14:12.500 thing,

00:14:12.880 another sign

00:14:14.280 of persona,

00:14:17.280 another sign

00:14:17.920 of virtue

00:14:18.500 signaling,

00:14:19.660 another sign

00:14:20.620 of false

00:14:21.460 morality,

00:14:23.440 another indication,

00:14:25.400 you might say,

00:14:26.120 of its variant

00:14:28.780 of using God's

00:14:31.140 name in vain,

00:14:32.540 the acting

00:14:35.800 out of a

00:14:38.000 claim to

00:14:38.500 moral virtue.

00:14:39.820 Obviously,

00:14:40.420 the woodcutter

00:14:40.940 and his wife

00:14:41.420 are just being

00:14:42.000 good parents,

00:14:42.720 taking care of

00:14:43.200 the children

00:14:43.580 while pursuing

00:14:44.680 their own

00:14:45.900 narrow,

00:14:46.820 selfish,

00:14:47.420 and even

00:14:47.840 malevolent aims.

00:14:49.460 Very bad.

00:14:51.200 Hansel and

00:14:51.640 Gretel sat by

00:14:52.280 the fire and

00:14:52.820 when noon

00:14:53.160 came,

00:14:53.600 each ate a

00:14:54.180 little piece

00:14:54.560 of bread.

00:14:55.740 And as they

00:14:56.240 heard the

00:14:56.620 strokes of the

00:14:57.200 wood axe,

00:14:57.740 they believed

00:14:58.200 that their

00:14:58.540 father was

00:14:59.060 near,

00:14:59.640 so they'd

00:15:00.020 been lulled

00:15:00.560 into a

00:15:00.960 false sense

00:15:01.500 of security.

00:15:03.080 It was

00:15:03.420 not,

00:15:03.820 which is

00:15:04.100 another indication

00:15:06.360 of the

00:15:06.760 depth of

00:15:07.440 the betrayal.

00:15:08.880 So the

00:15:09.420 stepmother

00:15:10.240 and the

00:15:11.220 weak father

00:15:11.860 set their

00:15:12.360 children up

00:15:12.860 to assume

00:15:13.340 that they're

00:15:13.720 safe in

00:15:14.260 the darkest

00:15:14.660 place of

00:15:15.140 the woods,

00:15:15.820 but they

00:15:16.240 skittered

00:15:17.180 off and

00:15:17.660 left them

00:15:18.460 to their

00:15:18.840 own

00:15:19.160 devices.

00:15:20.680 When they

00:15:21.260 heard the

00:15:21.580 strokes of

00:15:21.960 the wood

00:15:22.260 axe,

00:15:22.520 they believed

00:15:22.960 that the

00:15:23.260 father was

00:15:23.680 near.

00:15:24.280 It was

00:15:24.580 not,

00:15:24.960 however,

00:15:25.240 the axe.

00:15:25.960 It was

00:15:26.260 a branch

00:15:26.720 which he

00:15:27.060 had fastened

00:15:27.780 to a

00:15:28.180 withered

00:15:28.500 tree,

00:15:29.600 which the

00:15:30.180 wind was

00:15:30.560 blowing

00:15:30.880 backwards and

00:15:31.640 forwards.

00:15:32.020 So that's

00:15:32.900 another indication

00:15:34.000 of his

00:15:34.640 treachery and

00:15:36.540 malevolence in

00:15:38.020 the service of

00:15:39.020 his cruel and

00:15:40.880 heartless

00:15:42.360 stepmother slash

00:15:45.440 wife.

00:15:46.320 He's actually

00:15:47.180 set up an

00:15:48.780 additional trick

00:15:49.940 to lull his

00:15:50.900 children into a

00:15:52.640 sense of security

00:15:53.400 so they won't

00:15:54.260 follow and will

00:15:56.200 stay lost in the

00:15:57.200 forest.

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00:17:19.960 And as they had

00:17:21.000 been sitting such a

00:17:21.860 long time, their

00:17:22.460 eyes shut with

00:17:23.100 fatigue and they

00:17:23.880 fell fast asleep.

00:17:25.240 When at last they

00:17:26.040 awoke, it was

00:17:27.140 already dark night.

00:17:28.960 Gretel began to

00:17:29.700 cry and said,

00:17:30.540 how are we to get

00:17:31.420 out of the forest

00:17:32.220 now?

00:17:33.240 But Hansel

00:17:33.980 comforted her and

00:17:35.480 said, just wait a

00:17:36.760 little until the

00:17:37.660 moon had risen and

00:17:39.340 then we will soon

00:17:40.060 find the way.

00:17:41.180 And when the full

00:17:41.700 moon had risen,

00:17:42.700 Hansel took his

00:17:43.380 little sister by the

00:17:44.260 hand and followed

00:17:45.540 the pebbles, which

00:17:46.680 shone like newly

00:17:47.720 coined silver pieces

00:17:48.940 and showed them the

00:17:49.800 way.

00:17:50.020 They walked the

00:17:51.400 whole night long.

00:17:52.180 So again, you can

00:17:53.480 see that Hansel is

00:17:55.260 taking care of

00:17:56.020 Gretel and making

00:17:58.380 manifest that spirit

00:18:00.200 of reciprocity and

00:18:01.740 mature care that

00:18:03.180 actually saves the

00:18:05.060 children in the final

00:18:06.300 analysis and contrasts

00:18:08.160 them quite dramatically

00:18:09.160 with the appalling

00:18:11.520 conduct of their

00:18:13.360 parents.

00:18:13.780 They walked the

00:18:15.220 whole night long and

00:18:16.880 by break of day came

00:18:17.920 once more to their

00:18:18.660 father's house.

00:18:19.860 They knocked at the

00:18:20.780 door and when the

00:18:22.020 woman opened it and 0.69

00:18:22.940 saw that it was

00:18:23.520 Hansel and Gretel,

00:18:24.480 she said, lying

00:18:26.340 immediately, as is

00:18:27.840 her nature.

00:18:28.520 So, you know, and

00:18:29.220 that pertains to what

00:18:30.240 we discussed before,

00:18:32.120 the reasons for her

00:18:33.340 poverty.

00:18:34.160 She's cruel and

00:18:35.160 selfish and prone

00:18:36.840 continually to deceit.

00:18:38.220 And no doubt she

00:18:39.260 believes that the

00:18:39.980 world is a hard

00:18:40.660 place, dooming

00:18:42.340 someone like her to

00:18:43.840 abject poverty such

00:18:45.220 that she can't feed

00:18:47.480 herself, her husband

00:18:48.960 and the children who

00:18:50.920 aren't her children.

00:18:52.220 But given her

00:18:54.180 character, her

00:18:55.660 socioeconomic

00:18:57.700 circumstances are

00:18:58.820 hardly surprising.

00:18:59.220 You naughty

00:19:01.140 children, why have

00:19:02.040 you slept so long

00:19:02.900 in the forest?

00:19:03.560 We thought you were

00:19:04.200 never coming back at

00:19:05.100 all.

00:19:05.860 The father, however,

00:19:07.260 rejoiced, for it had

00:19:08.640 cut him to the heart

00:19:09.500 to leave them behind

00:19:10.900 alone.

00:19:11.760 Yeah, well, it might

00:19:12.760 have cut him to the

00:19:13.460 heart, but he didn't

00:19:14.180 do much about it.

00:19:16.040 Not long afterwards,

00:19:17.220 there was once more

00:19:18.000 great scarcity in all

00:19:19.300 parts, and the

00:19:20.480 children heard their

00:19:21.220 mother saying at night

00:19:22.160 to their father,

00:19:23.300 Everything is eaten

00:19:24.580 again.

00:19:25.060 We have one half loaf

00:19:26.220 left, and after that

00:19:27.660 there is an end.

00:19:28.340 Those children must

00:19:29.640 go.

00:19:30.360 We will take them 0.99

00:19:31.140 farther into the

00:19:31.920 wood, so that they

00:19:32.800 will not find their

00:19:33.760 way out again.

00:19:35.040 There is no other

00:19:35.700 means of saving

00:19:36.960 ourselves.

00:19:38.160 Well, so the

00:19:38.740 children have managed

00:19:39.700 to fend for

00:19:41.140 themselves quite

00:19:42.000 adequately at this

00:19:43.400 point, following the

00:19:45.200 silver road back

00:19:46.520 home, in consequence

00:19:48.460 of Hansel's positive

00:19:50.940 conduct, his attentive

00:19:53.080 attitude, and his

00:19:55.900 willingness to take

00:19:56.720 care of his sister,

00:19:57.600 mother, but they 0.99

00:19:58.300 are just children,

00:19:59.360 and so it's

00:20:00.720 possible for adults

00:20:02.620 to circumvent even

00:20:04.580 the wisest actions

00:20:08.340 of children and

00:20:09.260 betray them effectively,

00:20:13.180 which is what

00:20:14.000 happens next.

00:20:15.460 The man's heart was

00:20:16.820 heavy, and he

00:20:17.700 thought, it would be

00:20:19.340 better for thee to

00:20:21.500 share the last

00:20:22.380 mouthful with thy

00:20:23.360 children.

00:20:24.160 Yeah, you think?

00:20:24.860 The woman, however,

00:20:26.240 would listen to

00:20:26.840 nothing that he had

00:20:27.600 to say, but scolded

00:20:28.640 and reproached him.

00:20:30.600 And then the author

00:20:31.840 adds a comment, he

00:20:33.260 who says A must say B

00:20:36.400 likewise, and as he

00:20:37.640 had yielded the first

00:20:38.540 time, he had to do a

00:20:40.360 second time, he had to

00:20:42.560 do so a second time

00:20:43.880 also.

00:20:44.320 Well, his wife pokes and 1.00

00:20:50.200 prods him to find his

00:20:51.600 weakness of character, and

00:20:52.980 once having established

00:20:54.320 that initially, she knows

00:20:57.200 the points to leverage, and

00:21:00.940 so does that again, and the

00:21:03.040 authors make reference to the

00:21:08.180 fact that once you've given

00:21:11.340 up in relationship to a

00:21:14.560 fundamental principle, the

00:21:17.320 first time, it's much more

00:21:20.920 likely that you'll do the

00:21:23.140 same the second time.

00:21:25.040 The children, however, were

00:21:26.620 still awake and had heard the

00:21:27.860 conversation.

00:21:28.820 When the old folks were 1.00

00:21:29.620 asleep, Hansel again got up

00:21:31.180 and wanted to go out and

00:21:32.240 pick up pebbles, as he had

00:21:34.380 done before.

00:21:36.340 But the woman had locked the 1.00

00:21:37.740 door, and Hansel could not

00:21:38.900 get out.

00:21:39.340 But nonetheless, he

00:21:41.900 comforted his little sister

00:21:43.060 and said, do not cry,

00:21:44.560 Gretel, go to sleep

00:21:45.540 quietly.

00:21:46.760 The good God will help us.

00:21:49.640 So, Hansel is also a boy of

00:21:52.240 some upward orientation and

00:21:55.500 faith, and that makes itself

00:21:58.120 manifest in his attitude of

00:21:59.780 reciprocity towards his

00:22:01.060 sister, which, as we said,

00:22:04.300 contrasts with the parents, but

00:22:05.620 also turns out to be the

00:22:07.540 saving grace in the story.

00:22:10.000 Early in the morning came

00:22:10.840 the woman and took the 1.00

00:22:11.660 children out of their beds.

00:22:13.480 Their bit of bread was given

00:22:14.720 to them, but it was still

00:22:15.620 smaller than the time before.

00:22:18.100 On the way into the forest,

00:22:20.060 Hansel crumbled his in his

00:22:21.320 pocket and often stood still

00:22:23.340 and threw a morsel on the

00:22:24.660 ground.

00:22:25.780 So he's trying the same, a

00:22:27.860 variant of the same strategy

00:22:29.120 that he used last time, to

00:22:31.120 leave a pathway so that when

00:22:32.740 his parents lose him

00:22:36.160 purposefully, he still has the

00:22:38.680 wherewithal to get home, and

00:22:40.220 he's also willing to sacrifice

00:22:42.600 his meal to ensure that the

00:22:46.880 future remains secure and

00:22:49.580 predictable, and that shows a

00:22:52.260 kind of preternatural maturity on

00:22:55.520 his part, because he's a hungry

00:22:58.540 child after all, a starving child

00:23:00.660 even in dire straits, and he still

00:23:03.720 has enough self-control and

00:23:05.720 discipline to sacrifice his bit

00:23:09.040 of bread to ensure that his

00:23:11.760 sister and himself can make their

00:23:15.400 way home.

00:23:15.900 So that's also a testament to

00:23:19.220 Hansel's character.

00:23:22.340 Hansel, why dost thou stop and

00:23:23.960 look round, said the father.

00:23:25.280 Go on.

00:23:26.060 I'm looking back at my little

00:23:27.260 pigeon, which is sitting on the

00:23:28.480 roof and wants to say goodbye to

00:23:29.880 me, answered Hansel.

00:23:31.640 Simpleton, said the woman, that is 0.89

00:23:33.280 not thy little pigeon.

00:23:34.580 That is the morning sun that is

00:23:36.020 shining on the chimney.

00:23:37.740 Hansel, however, little by little

00:23:39.240 threw all the crumbs on the path.

00:23:42.120 So he's thinking ahead.

00:23:43.580 The woman led the children still 0.99

00:23:46.020 deeper into the forest where they

00:23:47.640 had never in their lives been

00:23:49.080 before.

00:23:50.120 Well, this description works on two

00:23:52.960 levels because there's the concrete

00:23:56.720 level where there is in the story

00:23:59.600 the house in the forest, and the

00:24:02.100 forest is the place of danger and

00:24:05.280 the unknown.

00:24:06.460 Danger, possibility, and the unknown.

00:24:08.940 And so that's really the structure of

00:24:10.660 the world, a stable, secure center

00:24:13.540 that's the house, or in principle

00:24:15.460 secure, although in this case it's

00:24:17.120 inhabited by, you know, evil

00:24:19.660 stepmother.

00:24:22.060 The home surrounded by the unknown.

00:24:24.560 And the children are taken out into

00:24:27.500 the unknown by the acts of their

00:24:30.440 parents, but metaphysically they're

00:24:32.560 abandoned to the unknown because their

00:24:35.800 parents do not provide them with the

00:24:37.880 security that is appropriate from the

00:24:43.080 moral perspective with regard to

00:24:45.840 parental conduct.

00:24:47.900 So children who are the target of

00:24:52.420 malevolent envy and jealousy, even

00:24:56.380 murderous, on the part of their parents

00:24:59.180 first motivated by exceptionally selfish

00:25:03.480 reasons justified by reference to

00:25:06.120 self-induced poverty, do find

00:25:09.140 themselves abandoned in the unknown.

00:25:13.000 Right?

00:25:13.580 They're parentless children.

00:25:15.700 The woman led the children still deeper 1.00

00:25:17.660 into the forest where they had never in

00:25:19.200 their lives been before.

00:25:20.680 Then a great fire was again made.

00:25:23.080 That's another sense of false security.

00:25:25.200 And the mother said, just sit there,

00:25:26.920 you children, and when you are tired, you

00:25:29.060 may sleep a little.

00:25:29.960 She's so wonderful.

00:25:31.260 We are going into the forest to cut wood.

00:25:33.440 And in the evening, when we were done,

00:25:34.920 we will come and fetch you away.

00:25:37.400 When it was noon, Gretel shared her piece

00:25:40.720 of bread with Hansel, who had scattered

00:25:43.080 his by the way.

00:25:44.920 And so Gretel is also part of a reciprocal

00:25:49.180 and reciprocally altruistic duo.

00:25:53.020 You could imagine a scenario where she had 0.87

00:25:56.400 secretly skittered off to eat her lone piece

00:26:01.860 of bread by herself, leaving her brother

00:26:03.960 with nothing.

00:26:05.060 But despite their privation, they prioritize

00:26:09.100 sharing.

00:26:10.920 And that makes them a unit, a unit with two

00:26:14.320 minds, let's say.

00:26:15.840 And as such a cooperative unit, they're able

00:26:20.080 to deal with the unknown circumstances that

00:26:23.220 present themselves to them much more effectively.

00:26:26.400 That sharing, hospitality, is the sacrifice

00:26:32.040 of momentary benefit for the advantage of

00:26:35.660 long-term communion, play, communication,

00:26:40.460 strategy, and mutual support.

00:26:42.940 And that is the foundation of community.

00:26:45.620 Sacrifice as foundation of community.

00:26:48.280 And Hansel and Gretel understand this.

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00:27:51.520 Then they fell asleep and evening came and went,

00:27:53.700 but no one came to the poor children.

00:27:56.140 They did not awake until it was dark night.

00:27:58.880 And Hansel comforted his little sister and said,

00:28:01.040 just wait, Gretel, until the moon rises.

00:28:03.320 And then we shall see the crumbs of bread,

00:28:05.200 which I have strewn about, and they will show us

00:28:07.720 our way home.

00:28:09.400 When the moon came, they set out, but they found

00:28:11.480 no crumbs, for the many thousands of birds

00:28:14.540 which fly about in the woods and fields have

00:28:17.060 picked them all up.

00:28:18.400 So Hansel is stymied this time in his attempt

00:28:23.760 to circumvent the machinations of his evil

00:28:27.000 stepmother and his weak father, reference to

00:28:31.220 his, the limits of his childhood strategizing.

00:28:35.920 Hansel said to Gretel, we shall soon find the way.

00:28:39.140 But they did not find it.

00:28:40.340 They walked the whole night and all the next day too

00:28:43.160 from morning till evening, but they did not get out

00:28:45.180 of the forest and were very hungry, for they had nothing

00:28:47.980 to eat but two or three berries which grew on the ground.

00:28:51.280 And as they were so weary that their legs would carry

00:28:53.840 them no longer, they lay down beneath a tree and fell asleep.

00:28:57.620 So they've come to the end of their own devices and they've

00:29:00.920 been abandoned and betrayed by their parents.

00:29:03.420 And so that places them even deeper in the woods, as we find

00:29:09.500 out in the next paragraph.

00:29:10.940 It was now three mornings since they had left their father's

00:29:13.440 house.

00:29:13.900 They began to walk again.

00:29:15.100 But they always got deeper into the forest, and if help did not

00:29:19.860 come soon, they must die of hunger and weariness.

00:29:23.660 When it was midday, they saw a beautiful snow-white bird sitting

00:29:27.800 on a bough, which sang so delightfully that they stood still

00:29:30.880 and listened to it.

00:29:31.740 And when it had finished its song, it spread its wings and flew

00:29:35.800 away before them.

00:29:36.880 And they followed it until they reached a little house on the

00:29:40.420 roof of which it alighted.

00:29:42.460 And so the evil witch, who we'll encounter soon, sends out a 0.94

00:29:48.640 attractive and welcoming avatar, familiar, you might say, to

00:29:54.440 attract the children.

00:29:55.540 And so this is the second time, third time in the story where we

00:30:00.260 see the facade of beauty and attractiveness, the white bird and

00:30:05.480 its attractive song, serving as the camouflage that hides something

00:30:14.280 much, much darker and more malevolent.

00:30:16.880 So this whole story is a warning about vice presenting itself as

00:30:25.260 virtue, and the bird is a representation of that.

00:30:31.380 The children are attracted by something that's beautiful and

00:30:36.700 apparently welcoming, and it entices them in their desperation into the

00:30:44.840 evil witch's lair.

00:30:46.480 Now that motif of the positive being used as camouflage for the negative is

00:30:54.600 immediately re-presented in the form of the house itself.

00:31:02.380 They followed the bird until they reached a little house on the roof of which it

00:31:05.780 alighted.

00:31:06.540 And when they came quite up to the little house, they saw that it was built out of

00:31:11.320 bread and covered with cakes, and that the windows were of clear sugar.

00:31:16.940 We will set to work on that, said Hansel, and have a good meal.

00:31:20.440 I'll eat a bit of the roof, and thou, Gretel, can eat some of the window.

00:31:24.220 It will taste sweet.

00:31:25.920 Hansel reached up above and broke off a little of the roof to try how it tasted,

00:31:29.840 and Gretel leant against the window and nibbled at the panes.

00:31:33.380 Then a soft voice cried from the room.

00:31:35.320 Okay, so what might we conclude at this point?

00:31:43.500 This looks a little too good to be true.

00:31:46.440 So you have children who are lost in the wilderness in consequence of their

00:31:50.380 parents' maliciousness and weakness and malevolence, and they are as deep into

00:31:56.260 the woods as they possibly can get, which means that they're in real trouble.

00:32:00.100 And a beautiful bird appears and leads them not only to a house, but a house that's

00:32:06.460 made out of, that's literally made out of candy.

00:32:09.280 And so that all screams too good to be true.

00:32:13.180 And it's a warning to everyone, children included, that it's often necessary to look behind the

00:32:22.880 facade, especially in a circumstance where things do seem to be too good to be true.

00:32:31.440 Then a soft voice cried from the room.

00:32:33.760 Nibble, nibble, gnaw.

00:32:35.060 Who is nibbling at my little house?

00:32:37.120 The children answered.

00:32:38.500 The wind, the wind, the heaven-born wind.

00:32:41.600 And went out eating without disturbing themselves.

00:32:44.380 Hansel, who thought the roof tasted very nice, tore down a great piece of it, and Gretel pushed

00:32:48.860 out the whole of one round windowpane, sat down, and enjoyed herself with it.

00:32:54.160 Suddenly the door opened, and a very, very old woman, who supported herself on crutches, 0.99

00:32:58.240 came creeping out.

00:33:00.040 Hansel and Gretel were so terribly frightened that they let fall what they had in their hands.

00:33:05.620 The old woman, however, nodded her head and said, 0.99

00:33:08.180 Oh, you dear children, who has brought you here?

00:33:11.840 Do come in and stay with me.

00:33:14.380 No harm shall happen to you.

00:33:15.860 She took them both by the hand and led them into her little house. 0.64

00:33:19.480 Then good food was set before them, milk and pancakes and sugar, apples and nuts.

00:33:25.220 Afterwards, two pretty little beds were covered with clean white linen, and Hansel and Gretel

00:33:29.620 lay down in them and thought they were in heaven.

00:33:33.860 There's a deep motif here of, as I alluded to earlier, of the pathologies of camouflaged

00:33:43.240 virtue signaling.

00:33:44.280 So, children are very dependent, and they're dependent primarily on maternal benevolence.

00:33:52.400 And what that means is that that maternal benevolence can be gained by pathological actors

00:34:00.040 who can accrue to themselves all of the reputational virtue of the positive mother.

00:34:07.100 You can think about this politically as well.

00:34:09.320 The maternal force that cares for everything, including the planet and everything on it,

00:34:17.820 but in reality is doing nothing but serving its own malicious and carnivorous or even cannibalistic

00:34:27.100 urges.

00:34:27.580 It's a very dark story.

00:34:29.800 And so, the worst evil takes the greatest good and perverts it to the worst possible end.

00:34:39.180 And that's what we see happening here.

00:34:41.800 The old woman had only pretended to be so kind.

00:34:46.520 She was in reality a wicked witch who lay in wait for children and had only built the little 1.00

00:34:51.820 house of bread in order to entice them.

00:34:54.700 When a child fell into her power, she killed it, cooked it, and ate it, and that was a feast day for her.

00:35:02.880 Witches have red eyes and cannot see far, but they have a keen scent, like the beasts,

00:35:07.500 and are aware when human beings draw near.

00:35:10.080 When Hansel and Gretel came into her neighborhood, she laughed maliciously and said mockingly, 0.73

00:35:14.040 I have them, they will not escape me again.

00:35:17.400 Now, there's another motif here apart from the pathology of glorious, maternal, compassionate,

00:35:32.480 virtue signaling, masking, carnivorous, or cannibalistic urges.

00:35:38.180 And that is the danger of maternal hypersolicitude, right?

00:35:46.940 So, human beings have the longest developmental period of any creature, and it can last almost

00:35:59.700 two decades, let's say.

00:36:01.120 And what that means is that a force that powerful can easily go wrong.

00:36:10.880 A mother shouldn't be so kind. 1.00

00:36:15.560 She should take care of her children, but not offer them too much, too much being a convenient 1.00

00:36:24.060 house in the midst of danger, but not only a house.

00:36:28.740 A house literally made out of candy and cake.

00:36:33.020 The mother who offers her children too much, who does everything for them, who goes above

00:36:40.640 and beyond the call of duty to announce to the world her virtuous compassion as the highest

00:36:47.160 possible moral virtue, is also the hovering helicopter mother who ends up devouring her own 1.00

00:36:56.820 children.

00:36:57.200 So, if it looks and sounds too good to be true, there's some real possibility that it is.

00:37:07.400 I remember my mother told me once, my mother, she died very recently, last year.

00:37:13.320 She's a very agreeable person and a compassionate person, but she had a spine and she didn't

00:37:20.480 overindulge your children or overprotect them.

00:37:26.560 And I left home when I was about 16.

00:37:29.480 I'd been having some friction with my father, which was some him and some me, perhaps even

00:37:37.100 mostly me.

00:37:37.820 And then once I left and went to college, our relationship re-normalized and maintained

00:37:46.900 itself quite positively from that time forward.

00:37:49.900 My mom said to me, after I had returned from college, when we were talking about having

00:37:57.620 left and the fact that things had settled up, she said, you know, and the conflict that accompanied

00:38:03.640 my leaving, she said, you know, if it was too good at home, you'd never leave.

00:38:06.900 And I thought that was, that was my mother in a nutshell, because she was a very pleasant

00:38:11.800 person and a very caring person and hospitable, but she had enough sense to know that a little

00:38:17.960 bit of pushing her children out of the nest was actually a very positive thing.

00:38:22.560 And this evil witch is all too good and announcing that continually. 0.98

00:38:30.060 As we celebrate Independence Day this July, we're reminded of the freedoms our founders

00:38:34.280 fought to protect, especially the fundamental right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of

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00:38:45.600 risk.

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00:39:40.960 Early in the morning before the children were awake, she was already up, and when she saw

00:39:47.580 both of them sleeping and looking so pretty, with their plump red cheeks, she muttered to

00:39:51.820 herself, that will be a dainty mouthful. 0.77

00:39:55.000 Then she seized Hansel with her shriveled hand, carried him into a little stable, and

00:39:59.780 shut him in behind a grated door.

00:40:02.140 He might scream as he liked.

00:40:04.000 That was of no use.

00:40:05.180 Then she went to Gretel, shook her till she awoke and cried, get up, lazy thing, fetch

00:40:10.340 some water, and cook something good for thy brother.

00:40:13.560 He's in the stable outside and is to be made fat.

00:40:16.840 And so that's an interesting twist in the story too, because mothers obviously feed their

00:40:24.420 children, and that's part of maternal behavior, but to overfeed a child is, again, to make 0.80

00:40:32.800 a pathology of care, right?

00:40:36.680 To make a show of that maternal solicitude at the cost of the child's health and well-being. 0.92

00:40:44.580 And so that's the meaning of the motif, that she's fattening up her ersatz son, her temporary 0.80

00:40:52.960 son, for no other reason than to devour him.

00:40:57.720 He is in the stable outside and is to be made fat.

00:41:00.560 When he is fat, I will eat him.

00:41:03.600 Gretel began to weep bitterly, but it was all in vain.

00:41:06.300 She was forced to do what the wicked witch ordered her. 0.96

00:41:08.980 And now the best food was cooked for poor Hansel. 0.99

00:41:11.820 But Gretel got nothing but crab shells.

00:41:15.160 Every morning the woman crept to the little stable and cried, Hansel, stretch out thy finger

00:41:19.180 that I may feel if thou wilt soon be fat.

00:41:22.160 Hansel, however, stretched out a little bone to her, and the old woman who had dim eyes 0.96

00:41:26.620 could not see it and thought it was Hansel's finger and was astonished that there was no

00:41:30.800 way of fattening him.

00:41:32.200 Well, that's another indication of Hansel's self-sufficiency.

00:41:36.700 He's attentive enough and intelligent enough to notice what the old woman is up to quite 1.00

00:41:47.020 clearly, not to deceive himself about her intent.

00:41:50.420 And in consequence of that careful attentiveness and refusal to deceive himself, he plays a trick

00:41:57.440 on her and indicates to her that he is by no means optimally positioned to serve as a meal.

00:42:06.880 When four weeks had gone by and Hansel still continued thin, she was seized with impatience

00:42:12.140 and would not wait any longer.

00:42:14.740 Hold on, Gretel, she cried to the girl.

00:42:16.580 Be active and bring some water.

00:42:18.460 Let Hansel be fat or lean.

00:42:20.320 Tomorrow I will kill him and cook him.

00:42:22.580 Ah, how the poor little sister did lament when she had to fetch the water and how her tears 0.99

00:42:28.740 did flow down over her cheeks.

00:42:30.740 Again, an indication that she really loved her brother.

00:42:34.820 A contrary attitude might be that she was quite relieved that it was Hansel who was serving

00:42:39.140 as main course rather than her.

00:42:42.240 Dear God, do help us, she cried.

00:42:46.120 If the wild beasts in the forests had but devoured us, we should at any rate have died together.

00:42:55.700 That's hammering home that motif of union in the face of adversity.

00:43:01.640 Just keep thy noise to thyself, said the old woman.

00:43:04.820 All that won't help thee at all.

00:43:07.040 Early in the morning, Gretel had to go out and hang up the cauldron with the water and light

00:43:11.480 the fire.

00:43:12.200 We will bake first, said the old woman.

00:43:14.140 I have already heated the oven and kneaded the dough.

00:43:17.240 She pushed poor Gretel out to the oven, from which flames of fire were already darting. 0.99

00:43:23.120 Creep in, said the witch.

00:43:24.900 See if it is properly heated, so that we can shut the brand in.

00:43:29.380 And when once Gretel was inside, she intended to shut the oven and let her bake in there. 0.98

00:43:34.940 Then she would eat her too.

00:43:37.080 But Gretel, also being an awake child, properly taken care of, let's say, by her brother,

00:43:42.580 unwilling to deceive herself about the motivation of the woman, who's just too good to be true.

00:43:50.080 But Gretel saw what she had in her mind and said, I do not know how I am to do it.

00:43:54.660 How do you get in?

00:43:56.380 Silly ghost, said the old woman. 0.97

00:43:58.020 The door is big enough.

00:43:59.080 Look, I can get in myself.

00:44:01.000 And she crept up and thrust her head into the oven. 1.00

00:44:05.140 Then Gretel, who's an enterprising young woman, gave her a push that drove her far into it 0.76

00:44:10.540 and shut the iron door and fastened the bolt.

00:44:13.420 Oh, then she began to howl quite horribly.

00:44:15.860 But Gretel ran away, and the godless witch was miserably burnt to death.

00:44:20.760 So Hansel and Gretel are awake enough to defend themselves against the evil machinations of the camouflaged witch,

00:44:31.900 the witch camouflaged in virtue.

00:44:34.800 And, you know, one of the things Carl Jung said about pathological families was that

00:44:39.740 children are also often offered an easy way out by an over-solicitous parent, for example,

00:44:48.840 but that they don't necessarily have to take the bait.

00:44:52.540 So you could imagine a lonely mother with a child who has, oh, maybe a cold.

00:45:01.280 And the mother is hoping that the child could stay home from school so that she has company.

00:45:08.060 And she suggests to the child, verbally and non-verbally,

00:45:14.460 that his or her state of physical health is sufficiently compromised

00:45:22.780 so that staying home from school might be justifiable.

00:45:27.500 And the child knows full well that he's not particularly sick,

00:45:32.160 but takes the bait and then enters into a pathological covenant with the mother

00:45:40.620 such that he exaggerates his proclivity for illness

00:45:46.960 and brings illness onto himself in so doing.

00:45:50.400 And she benefits from the fact that she can make her maternal solicitude manifest publicly, 1.00

00:45:57.780 benefit from that display of virtue, and also not have to be alone.

00:46:02.960 And so Hansel and Gretel are not playing games of that sort.

00:46:08.060 They're maybe because they're bonded together and taking care of each other,

00:46:12.040 maybe because they're oriented properly,

00:46:14.580 they're capable of fending for themselves and taking action when necessary

00:46:20.040 and not falling prey to the machinations of the over-demonstrative mother figure 0.88

00:46:33.380 who, in truth, wants to devour them.

00:46:37.500 Children have a moral responsibility too, you know.

00:46:40.220 I mean, and that's a tricky thing to manage, but it takes two to tango. 0.85

00:46:46.280 And that doesn't mean I'm blaming the child in situations where the family becomes pathological.

00:46:51.420 No, I had people in my clinical practice who were offered pathological invitations,

00:46:57.860 let's say, by their parents, and they resisted instead of falling prey to them

00:47:02.700 and managed to free themselves from the situation.

00:47:07.480 And so, you know, everybody has their destiny, and that includes children.

00:47:11.460 And we make our beds, even when we're very young, and then are required to lie in them.

00:47:19.740 Gretel ran like lightning to Hansel, opened his little stable and cried,

00:47:24.380 Hansel, we're saved, the old witch is dead. 0.95

00:47:27.020 So immediately her first response is to go rescue her brother.

00:47:30.380 Then Hansel sprang out like a bird from its cage when the door is open for it.

00:47:34.280 How they did rejoice and embrace each other and dance about and kiss each other.

00:47:38.200 And as they no longer had any need to fear her, they went into the witch's house.

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00:48:41.760 You know, and that is indication of some real bravery on their part as well and some curiosity

00:48:51.020 because you could easily imagine that their first impulse would be to get the hell away

00:48:55.740 from that place as rapidly as possible.

00:48:58.280 But they're courageous enough to investigate.

00:49:01.540 And what they find is in every corner there stood chests full of pearls and jewels.

00:49:06.880 These are far better than pebbles, said Hansel, and thrust into his pockets whatever could

00:49:11.400 be got in.

00:49:12.260 And Gretel said, I too will take something home with me and filled her pinafore full.

00:49:16.940 But now we will go away, said Hansel, that we may get out of the witch's forest.

00:49:21.260 So why did the children find a great treasure in the witch's house? 0.98

00:49:26.160 Well, they found a great treasure in the defeated witch's house, right? 0.97

00:49:30.720 That's a crucial distinction.

00:49:31.940 And the greatest treasure that children can find is the means of assuring their own mature

00:49:45.560 independence.

00:49:46.660 You remember now, Hansel found pebbles that would help him, used pebbles that would help

00:49:54.840 him find his way home.

00:49:55.780 And he makes an allusion here to the fact that these pearls are better than the pebbles that

00:50:00.960 he had.

00:50:01.380 And that's an indication that, like it's an echoing or a parallelism, indicating that

00:50:08.020 the treasure that they have now found is the treasure that always helps everyone adventure

00:50:17.860 and return home.

00:50:19.080 Well, that's a genuine maturity.

00:50:21.380 And it's a maturity and independence that the children found in being forthright in maintaining

00:50:28.860 their union in love and in defeating the over-solicitous maternal embrace.

00:50:40.360 When they had walked for two hours, they came to a great piece of water.

00:50:44.000 We cannot get over, said Hansel.

00:50:45.680 I see no foot plank and no bridge and no boat crosses either, answered Gretel.

00:50:50.460 But a white duck is swimming there.

00:50:52.280 If I ask her, she will help us over.

00:50:54.800 Then she cried, little duck, little duck, dost thou see?

00:50:57.860 Hansel and Gretel are waiting for thee.

00:51:00.100 There's never a plank or a bridge in sight.

00:51:02.400 Take us across on the back.

00:51:04.200 So white.

00:51:04.800 Well, it's a magical transition back to the familiarity of household and father.

00:51:13.960 And the water serves as that bridge and the duck as the magical means of transport from

00:51:22.640 the ultimately unknown where the evil force of maternal devouring lies in wait.

00:51:31.600 It's a transition point back to the normal world.

00:51:35.620 And then there's an echo here again of the thoughtfulness of the children because

00:51:39.260 the duck came to them and Hansel seated himself on its back and told his sister to sit by him.

00:51:45.020 No, replied Gretel, that will be too heavy for the little duck.

00:51:48.300 She shall take us across one after the other. 0.58

00:51:50.820 So even under those circumstances, the children are looking out for each other.

00:51:57.660 Hansel invites Gretel to sit by him.

00:51:59.320 But they're also paying attention to the circumstances, even in the midst of their good

00:52:03.640 fortune, so that they don't take undue advantage of what's being offered to them.

00:52:08.820 And so they're patient.

00:52:10.460 They allow the bird to transport them one at a time.

00:52:13.480 And that also ensures their safety.

00:52:16.160 So they're actually very wise little children and things work out reasonably well for them.

00:52:22.800 The good little duck did so.

00:52:24.040 And when they were once safely across and had walked for a short time, the forest seemed

00:52:29.160 to be more and more familiar to them.

00:52:31.060 And at length, they saw from afar their father's house.

00:52:35.000 Then they began to run, rushed into the parlor and threw themselves into their father's arms.

00:52:39.720 The man had not known one happy hour since he had left the children in the forest.

00:52:45.100 Well, I should hope not.

00:52:46.300 The woman, however, was dead.

00:52:50.060 Gretel emptied her pinafore until pearls and precious stones ran about the room and Hansel

00:52:54.820 threw one handful after another out of his pocket to add to them.

00:52:59.160 Then all anxiety was at an end and they lived together in perfect happiness.

00:53:05.900 My tale is done.

00:53:07.380 There runs a mouse.

00:53:08.520 Whoever catches it may make himself a big fur cap out of it.

00:53:12.460 Hard to tell what that ending means.

00:53:14.160 So, well, the children have an adventure.

00:53:17.840 They, it's an initiation.

00:53:21.760 They go into the depths of the forest in consequence of a profound betrayal.

00:53:28.200 They encounter the, one of the darkest extant spirits, that devouring force of maternal over-solicitude.

00:53:38.120 They keep their wits about them.

00:53:41.420 They see through the facade.

00:53:44.660 They defeat the evil witch.

00:53:47.560 They maintain their partnership.

00:53:50.220 They capture the treasure of great price in consequence of their maturity, bravery, and attentiveness.

00:53:57.900 And they make their way home.

00:54:00.560 And that's the end of Hansel and Gretel.

00:54:03.600 Thank pocoy.

00:54:04.520 The End of Hansel, Gretel, Gretel, Gretel.

00:54:08.780 Thank you.

00:54:12.420 Thank you.

00:54:12.700 Thank you.

00:54:13.660 Thank you.

00:54:14.520 Thank you.

00:54:15.780 Thank you.

00:54:16.260 Thank you.

00:54:18.280 Thank you.

00:54:19.020 Thank you.

00:54:19.280 Thank you.

00:54:20.460 Thank you.

00:54:25.480 Thank you.

564. The Moral of the Story with JBP： Hansel & Gretel

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Summary

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