The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - 571. Master Relationships and Improve Your Dating Life ｜ Answer the Call

00:00:00.000 You don't win an argument with your wife.

00:00:02.920 You never win that.

00:00:04.140 Part of your defensive mechanism and your pride is going to be,

00:00:07.140 well, this time for sure.

00:00:08.280 Sometimes though.

00:00:09.040 Yeah.

00:00:09.340 Yeah, well, it's convenient when that's the case.

00:00:13.860 What's some advice that you could give a man my age on how best to integrate

00:00:17.080 or maybe conquer the ghosts of past relationships?

00:00:20.360 The core of the question was,

00:00:22.260 what can I do to ensure that I'm not dragging the past into the future?

00:00:27.700 Understand the past.

00:00:29.120 Understand the past.

00:00:30.940 There will be times when you or your partner were betrayed in the past.

00:00:36.160 By yourself, by someone else, doesn't matter.

00:00:38.760 There's a betrayal.

00:00:39.760 And then when I suggest that it's you, you're going to get defensive.

00:00:43.360 Partly because you don't want it to be you.

00:00:45.740 And partly because there's a part of you that knows that there's something underneath that

00:00:49.080 that's going to be very unpleasant to uncover.

00:00:52.060 You also have to allow your partner to do a good thing badly.

00:00:55.140 When they first start to listen, when they first start to help and untangle,

00:00:59.620 you've got to let them flail them out a fair bit.

00:01:01.940 People will often do something difficult twice.

00:01:04.460 Go on a date, for example, when they haven't been with each other for a long time.

00:01:07.800 It won't go well.

00:01:08.600 And they'll think, well, we're certainly not doing that again.

00:01:11.360 That happens to people.

00:01:12.440 Then they don't have any romance for decades.

00:01:15.360 That is not wise.

00:01:16.840 That's not wise.

00:01:23.580 In this episode, we're talking about marriage and relationships.

00:01:28.040 So that should be interesting.

00:01:29.560 Fortunately, my husband doesn't watch anything I do.

00:01:31.920 So first on the line, John in Chicago.

00:01:36.260 Hi, John.

00:01:37.520 Hi, Dr. Peterson.

00:01:38.480 Thank you for having me on the show.

00:01:40.080 Yeah, thanks for offering.

00:01:42.720 I'm 53 years old.

00:01:44.140 I've been divorced for about nine years.

00:01:47.120 During those nine years, I've purposely devoted a very substantial portion of my time,

00:01:51.820 effort, and attention to my son and his predisposition for acting.

00:01:56.040 Recently, at the urging of my highly extroverted 17-year-old son,

00:02:00.560 and after quite a bit of thought and feelings of terror on my part,

00:02:04.260 I took his advice and started dating.

00:02:06.380 Thankfully, after taking that step, I've started dating a rather fantastic woman. 0.99

00:02:10.180 During the adventure of our five-month relationship,

00:02:12.420 I've seriously discovered the importance of having an intimate partner in my life,

00:02:16.440 and we've even discussed the possibility of spending the rest of our lives together.

00:02:20.180 So my question is, based on the abbreviated description of my situation,

00:02:24.000 what's some advice that you could give a man my age on how best to integrate,

00:02:27.280 or maybe conquer,

00:02:29.160 the ghosts of past relationships and life choices

00:02:31.360 to properly set the foundation for a new relationship

00:02:34.440 to last the rest of our lives?

00:02:36.820 I have a program that you might want to try online called Past Authoring

00:02:42.260 that helps people write an autobiography.

00:02:44.720 I would say that it would be useful for you,

00:02:48.720 since you're concerned with conquering the ghosts of the past,

00:02:53.220 which is a very wise thing to do,

00:02:57.040 at your age, with your wisdom,

00:02:59.920 and when you're wanting to embark on a new path forward

00:03:06.540 with clarity and with the demons of the past understood and relatively conquered.

00:03:13.840 Now, we organize ourselves neurologically at the highest level

00:03:20.520 through language and story,

00:03:23.600 and your life to date,

00:03:28.620 properly understood,

00:03:30.680 would make a coherent narrative.

00:03:33.420 Now, that's hard,

00:03:34.840 because you have five decades to contend with,

00:03:37.240 and there will be elements of your past

00:03:40.000 that aren't well mapped,

00:03:42.140 and those are the pitfalls.

00:03:44.360 Everything you don't understand about your past

00:03:46.620 is a pitfall waiting for you to fall into in the future.

00:03:51.380 Now, one of the ways that you can understand

00:03:54.700 where those pitfalls exist

00:03:57.420 is that you'll have memories of the past

00:04:01.060 that are still hot and active.

00:04:02.980 They still have emotional significance.

00:04:04.880 Now, if a memory that's more than a year and a half old

00:04:07.560 still has emotional significance,

00:04:09.620 that's an indication from the anxiety alarm systems

00:04:14.340 that you did not mine that experience

00:04:18.900 for its full significance.

00:04:20.500 And that means that you still have something to learn

00:04:23.760 to avoid falling into that pitfall again in the future,

00:04:27.820 which is what you indicated that you want to do.

00:04:30.200 So, I would say that you could profitably spend some time

00:04:34.760 writing down your life.

00:04:38.200 Now, the way the program works,

00:04:40.220 and you don't have to do the program,

00:04:41.800 you can do this on your own,

00:04:42.940 is that it asks you to break your life down

00:04:45.580 into seven or eight epochs.

00:04:48.300 So, some people do that by their relationships,

00:04:52.900 sometimes people do it by their educational progression

00:04:55.900 or their career transformations.

00:04:58.220 Whatever way seems reasonable to you,

00:05:01.180 or, you know, different chunks of age,

00:05:03.880 whatever way seems reasonable to you

00:05:05.580 to break down your life is fine.

00:05:07.820 And then to think through

00:05:11.080 what the most significant positive and negative events were

00:05:15.100 to lay them out,

00:05:16.640 to lay them out in a way that helps you understand

00:05:19.520 why the positive events were positive,

00:05:22.260 what you did right,

00:05:23.680 and what the circumstances were

00:05:25.300 so that that positive outcome was most likely,

00:05:28.720 where you went astray,

00:05:30.540 how you contributed to that,

00:05:32.620 how you might deal with that in the future.

00:05:34.640 You want to do that in a manner

00:05:36.820 that brings you up to date.

00:05:39.500 And so, that'll help exercise,

00:05:42.140 and I don't mean physical exercise,

00:05:44.720 I mean demon exercise,

00:05:46.020 that'll help exercise the ghosts of the past.

00:05:49.720 Now, the rule here to understand is,

00:05:53.980 the principle to understand here

00:05:55.840 is the actual principle of memory.

00:05:57.980 You do not remember the past

00:06:00.760 so you have an accurate, objective record of the past.

00:06:04.100 That's actually impossible

00:06:05.620 because you can't have a comprehensive record of the past.

00:06:09.000 You remember the past

00:06:10.280 so that you can duplicate

00:06:12.260 what was good about it in the future

00:06:14.060 and avoid what was bad about it in the future.

00:06:17.100 And that means you have to have derived

00:06:19.280 the appropriate moral,

00:06:21.580 which is the point,

00:06:22.780 from the outcome.

00:06:24.140 And so,

00:06:25.220 it's very useful to bring your narrative up to date.

00:06:28.040 Then you know where you are.

00:06:29.820 Once you know where you are,

00:06:31.000 you can plot your future.

00:06:32.140 You can plot your future together

00:06:33.540 with your new partner.

00:06:35.200 And so,

00:06:35.700 the reason I recommended this in particular,

00:06:39.920 in consequence of this question,

00:06:41.540 was because the core of the question was,

00:06:44.300 what can I do to ensure

00:06:46.660 that I'm not dragging the past into the future?

00:06:50.480 It's like,

00:06:50.980 understand the past.

00:06:53.300 Understand the past.

00:06:54.920 Right?

00:06:55.300 Delve into it.

00:06:56.500 That's good.

00:06:57.100 This is interesting

00:06:57.800 because you get deep into it

00:06:59.240 and I've got some like practical tips

00:07:01.860 because I just,

00:07:03.160 not just actually,

00:07:04.200 because it's been a number of years

00:07:05.160 that I've been remarried,

00:07:06.360 but I went through something similar.

00:07:08.540 What I noticed,

00:07:10.180 I noticed,

00:07:11.360 try and figure out

00:07:13.460 what your concerns are

00:07:15.680 and,

00:07:16.500 for lack of a better word,

00:07:17.460 your triggers are.

00:07:18.440 so I noticed

00:07:20.460 that when I was in certain situations

00:07:23.620 that were bad in the past

00:07:26.520 that had a similar pattern,

00:07:28.720 I'd have an emotional reaction

00:07:30.400 that was way off the charts

00:07:32.180 and I had to recognize,

00:07:33.920 oh,

00:07:34.300 I'm recognizing a pattern from the past,

00:07:36.420 but this isn't the same thing.

00:07:38.200 It just has certain similarities.

00:07:40.480 So that's a,

00:07:41.040 that's a me problem,

00:07:42.200 but then I'd talk about it

00:07:44.580 with my husband

00:07:45.140 and he started to pick up on it

00:07:46.740 once we noticed this happened

00:07:47.760 a couple of times

00:07:48.440 and I'd say,

00:07:49.340 okay,

00:07:49.840 this is,

00:07:51.040 this is freaking me out

00:07:52.400 because of what happened

00:07:53.640 in the past

00:07:54.260 and then we'd communicate

00:07:56.860 through it,

00:07:57.940 which was really useful.

00:07:59.660 So one of the things

00:08:00.480 that you're pointing out

00:08:01.440 is that,

00:08:02.140 and this is extremely useful,

00:08:03.400 is that you can watch yourself

00:08:05.020 or your partner

00:08:06.180 for emotional responses

00:08:08.660 that are disproportionate

00:08:10.360 to the trigger

00:08:11.100 that recur.

00:08:13.060 Okay,

00:08:13.700 now to investigate

00:08:15.080 those,

00:08:15.700 you have to take a trip

00:08:17.060 to Dante's Inferno.

00:08:19.180 Okay,

00:08:19.580 so the book,

00:08:20.740 The Inferno,

00:08:21.600 is a story

00:08:22.700 of a voyage

00:08:23.760 to the underworld,

00:08:25.100 a voyage to hell.

00:08:26.320 Now,

00:08:26.560 here's the idea,

00:08:27.500 is that under,

00:08:28.640 so imagine there's

00:08:29.420 a trivial trigger

00:08:30.480 for a relatively profound

00:08:31.940 emotional upset.

00:08:33.920 Okay,

00:08:34.280 that means there's something

00:08:35.660 underneath it.

00:08:37.960 Okay,

00:08:38.500 how far underneath?

00:08:40.060 Well,

00:08:40.280 that's what you have

00:08:41.000 to dig into

00:08:41.620 to find out.

00:08:42.800 Dante put

00:08:43.720 the betrayers

00:08:45.620 right next to Satan

00:08:47.700 in the depths of hell,

00:08:49.940 so to speak.

00:08:51.240 So often,

00:08:51.880 what you'll find

00:08:52.620 with yourself

00:08:53.780 or with your partner,

00:08:55.040 and this is almost inevitable

00:08:56.240 in any relationship,

00:08:57.280 is that there will be times

00:08:58.440 when you or your partner

00:09:00.380 were betrayed

00:09:01.660 in the past,

00:09:02.860 by yourself,

00:09:03.660 by someone else,

00:09:04.460 doesn't matter,

00:09:05.440 there's a betrayal.

00:09:06.300 And that has meant,

00:09:08.300 left you

00:09:08.920 unable to trust

00:09:11.080 and hypersensitive

00:09:12.220 about any situation

00:09:13.920 that's reminiscent of that.

00:09:15.560 Yeah,

00:09:15.780 exactly.

00:09:16.060 And some people,

00:09:16.460 some people are just,

00:09:18.160 some people who've been

00:09:19.260 betrayed continually,

00:09:20.680 who've never had

00:09:21.600 a good relationship,

00:09:22.860 let's say,

00:09:23.360 if they're a woman 1.00

00:09:24.140 with a man,

00:09:25.180 they're just like that.

00:09:27.020 They just have like

00:09:27.940 a hundred triggers

00:09:30.020 like that.

00:09:30.680 Yeah,

00:09:30.880 and no wonder.

00:09:31.880 And no wonder.

00:09:32.540 But it means,

00:09:33.860 unfortunately,

00:09:34.520 that you have to go

00:09:35.520 to the bottom.

00:09:36.280 And that's very difficult

00:09:37.600 because one of the things

00:09:39.080 you'll find too is that,

00:09:40.560 so let's say I identify

00:09:42.500 that in you.

00:09:43.520 Well,

00:09:43.920 first of all,

00:09:45.580 you're going to see me

00:09:46.800 as the cause.

00:09:47.940 Oh, yeah.

00:09:48.460 So that's hard.

00:09:49.960 And then when I suggest

00:09:51.540 that it's you,

00:09:52.120 you're going to get defensive,

00:09:53.840 partly because you don't

00:09:55.400 want it to be you,

00:09:56.240 and partly because

00:09:57.140 there's a part of you

00:09:57.880 that knows that there's

00:09:58.780 something underneath that

00:09:59.760 that's going to be

00:10:00.360 very unpleasant

00:10:01.620 to uncover.

00:10:03.320 And then you're going

00:10:04.580 to be irritable

00:10:05.360 and get angry

00:10:06.280 as a defensive mechanism,

00:10:07.640 and then if I keep pushing,

00:10:09.360 you'll cry

00:10:10.160 and make me feel

00:10:11.240 like I'm a bully.

00:10:12.840 But if,

00:10:13.920 so this has to be done

00:10:14.960 very carefully.

00:10:15.480 It might also be

00:10:16.100 an emotional release,

00:10:17.260 though, crying.

00:10:18.160 It is an emotional release.

00:10:19.480 From my experience.

00:10:20.860 Yeah.

00:10:21.560 And this didn't take me

00:10:22.320 very long

00:10:22.720 because I had already

00:10:23.520 done a lot of work

00:10:24.780 and was aware

00:10:26.820 that this was going

00:10:27.600 to be a problem.

00:10:28.560 Yeah.

00:10:28.860 So when I saw myself,

00:10:30.600 okay,

00:10:30.820 my like heartbeat

00:10:31.960 is going up,

00:10:33.100 something happens

00:10:33.980 that reminds me

00:10:34.700 of a past situation.

00:10:36.340 My heartbeat goes up

00:10:37.700 and I get flappy,

00:10:39.000 like really flappy.

00:10:40.200 Yeah.

00:10:40.500 Like,

00:10:40.860 I'm not doing this,

00:10:42.400 absolutely no.

00:10:43.500 Yeah.

00:10:43.940 Huge boundaries.

00:10:45.080 Yeah.

00:10:45.300 And it's like,

00:10:45.940 whoa,

00:10:46.200 where did this outburst

00:10:47.640 of emotion come from?

00:10:48.720 And then I could go,

00:10:49.420 okay,

00:10:50.060 I'm scared.

00:10:52.160 Yeah.

00:10:52.280 Like,

00:10:52.320 that's the main thing

00:10:53.340 is I'm scared

00:10:54.140 and that's not

00:10:54.780 an appropriate response.

00:10:56.060 I feel like

00:10:58.020 what worked for me

00:10:58.980 was

00:10:59.480 like taking a minute

00:11:02.680 and breathing

00:11:03.280 and calming down

00:11:04.260 and being like,

00:11:04.800 this isn't the same.

00:11:06.320 Trying to retrain

00:11:07.320 your nervous system

00:11:08.220 or something,

00:11:08.620 this isn't the same.

00:11:09.320 Or even,

00:11:10.040 this might not be the same,

00:11:12.280 right?

00:11:12.700 That's a good initial step.

00:11:14.140 That,

00:11:14.460 yes.

00:11:14.900 That's a good initial step.

00:11:15.940 It might not be the same,

00:11:17.180 right?

00:11:17.480 And then there's other

00:11:19.080 attitudes that you can adopt

00:11:21.620 that are helpful.

00:11:22.760 Like,

00:11:23.000 if you're running

00:11:23.800 into a recurrent problem

00:11:25.560 with your partner,

00:11:27.260 there's a couple

00:11:28.320 of possibilities.

00:11:29.300 It's you,

00:11:29.940 that's one possibility.

00:11:31.100 It's the other person,

00:11:32.460 that's another possibility.

00:11:33.600 It's some situational variable

00:11:35.340 that you haven't all considered.

00:11:37.000 Now,

00:11:37.480 the attitude you have to take,

00:11:39.740 and this is hard to do,

00:11:41.120 this is the attitude

00:11:41.800 of humility

00:11:42.420 rather than pride,

00:11:43.440 is even if it's only

00:11:45.240 5% me,

00:11:48.340 it would be in

00:11:49.880 my best interest

00:11:50.980 and my partner's

00:11:51.960 best interest

00:11:52.540 and the best interest

00:11:53.620 of our marriage

00:11:54.360 to fix it.

00:11:55.360 So I'm going to listen

00:11:56.740 to what this other person says.

00:11:58.880 You know,

00:11:59.200 part of your defensive mechanism

00:12:01.380 and your pride

00:12:02.080 is going to be,

00:12:02.800 well,

00:12:02.980 this time for sure,

00:12:04.020 it's my partner.

00:12:07.380 The probability

00:12:08.300 that it's 100% them

00:12:09.620 is very low.

00:12:10.620 Sometimes though,

00:12:11.620 and then it's debattle.

00:12:13.400 Yeah,

00:12:13.920 yeah,

00:12:14.160 well,

00:12:14.340 it's convenient

00:12:14.880 when that's the case.

00:12:16.480 The reason that

00:12:17.620 humility

00:12:18.620 is a religious practice

00:12:20.540 is because

00:12:21.940 it's extremely useful

00:12:23.260 to adopt the attitude

00:12:25.320 that you might have

00:12:27.020 something to learn,

00:12:28.560 right?

00:12:28.820 Because then you can

00:12:29.500 keep learning.

00:12:30.880 And the goal,

00:12:31.880 the mutual goal

00:12:32.720 should be,

00:12:33.180 and this is why

00:12:33.860 the marriage vow

00:12:36.060 has to be sacred,

00:12:37.280 it has to be deep,

00:12:38.620 the aim should be

00:12:41.460 let's live in peace

00:12:43.380 and harmony.

00:12:44.520 Yeah.

00:12:44.920 Let's solve this.

00:12:45.660 It's not let's win.

00:12:46.480 Yeah,

00:12:46.780 that's for you.

00:12:47.540 Or I want to win

00:12:48.500 more than let's win.

00:12:49.620 Or something terrible

00:12:50.640 in me wants to win.

00:12:51.880 You don't win

00:12:53.140 an argument

00:12:54.700 with your wife.

00:12:56.040 You never win that.

00:12:57.580 It's not,

00:12:58.240 and if you win repeatedly,

00:12:59.600 she just loses repeatedly.

00:13:01.100 That's a very bad strategy.

00:13:02.660 The goal should be,

00:13:04.320 we'll talk about this

00:13:06.220 badly, 0.77

00:13:07.580 foolishly,

00:13:08.200 but as the best we can

00:13:09.680 until we've

00:13:11.860 sorted out.

00:13:13.120 And that's,

00:13:13.980 the more the person

00:13:16.280 you're with

00:13:16.800 or you has been hurt,

00:13:18.040 the harder that is.

00:13:19.140 It's,

00:13:19.880 it's hard.

00:13:20.780 And it often takes,

00:13:23.280 especially someone

00:13:24.040 who is not practiced

00:13:25.160 at this,

00:13:26.240 you know,

00:13:26.800 they'll be upset

00:13:28.580 about something.

00:13:29.780 It can take them

00:13:31.000 a week

00:13:32.460 to figure out

00:13:34.840 what's actually

00:13:35.420 bothering them.

00:13:36.220 It's very hard

00:13:37.400 to get to the bottom

00:13:38.160 of things.

00:13:39.080 Yeah,

00:13:39.320 you need to practice.

00:13:40.460 But practice does work.

00:13:41.740 Practice definitely works.

00:13:42.900 Yeah.

00:13:43.340 Yeah.

00:13:43.640 And,

00:13:43.920 and getting your aim

00:13:45.020 straight works.

00:13:45.740 It's like,

00:13:46.460 I don't want to,

00:13:48.000 I don't want to have

00:13:48.820 this fight with you

00:13:50.020 for the rest of time.

00:13:52.280 Well,

00:13:52.500 remembering you like the person.

00:13:54.000 If you like the person,

00:13:55.100 that really helps.

00:13:55.860 It's like,

00:13:56.160 wait,

00:13:56.400 no,

00:13:56.660 I do like that.

00:13:57.540 Well,

00:13:57.800 that is,

00:13:58.540 it's a very good thing

00:13:59.220 to remember

00:13:59.780 because that also helps

00:14:01.340 you fight against

00:14:02.040 the proclivity

00:14:02.680 to win.

00:14:04.380 It's like,

00:14:04.900 you got to remember

00:14:06.200 that you love the person.

00:14:07.580 This is something,

00:14:08.260 this is something

00:14:08.880 you can really practice

00:14:09.900 in your marriage.

00:14:11.220 Like,

00:14:12.160 as a practice,

00:14:13.440 look at your wife 0.97

00:14:15.220 and remember

00:14:17.040 when that you love her.

00:14:20.380 Remember that.

00:14:21.200 Bring it to mind.

00:14:22.100 Bring that feeling

00:14:23.320 that you had

00:14:24.180 when that was self-evident.

00:14:26.160 People,

00:14:26.780 you know,

00:14:26.960 often romanticize

00:14:28.360 the early stages

00:14:29.860 of a relationship

00:14:30.640 when that intense

00:14:31.820 romantic love

00:14:32.680 first manifests itself.

00:14:34.500 You know,

00:14:35.060 and everyone says,

00:14:35.900 well,

00:14:35.960 that declines with time.

00:14:37.160 Well,

00:14:37.600 it declines with time

00:14:38.480 if you don't practice it.

00:14:40.560 Just like everything else,

00:14:42.100 it doesn't decline

00:14:43.240 with time

00:14:43.740 if you practice it.

00:14:44.980 And you can,

00:14:45.840 our culture

00:14:46.420 is very clueless

00:14:47.160 about such things.

00:14:48.100 We know virtually

00:14:49.220 nothing of

00:14:49.900 spiritual practice.

00:14:51.640 We don't practice

00:14:52.480 humility.

00:14:54.140 Right?

00:14:54.380 You have to practice that.

00:14:55.520 We don't practice

00:14:56.440 gratitude.

00:14:57.720 To practice gratitude

00:14:58.620 means you

00:14:59.280 remember what

00:15:00.820 you're grateful about

00:15:01.940 and search for it

00:15:03.200 genuinely

00:15:03.840 every day

00:15:05.140 or every moment

00:15:06.700 and you do

00:15:07.520 the same thing

00:15:08.160 with love.

00:15:08.740 You have to remember

00:15:09.640 and that can really

00:15:10.880 help you

00:15:11.320 when you're trying

00:15:11.960 to sort through

00:15:12.560 something complex

00:15:13.900 and then you also

00:15:15.260 have to have

00:15:16.000 the trust

00:15:16.720 that's courage

00:15:17.900 rather than

00:15:18.920 the trust

00:15:19.360 that's naivety.

00:15:20.380 Right?

00:15:20.560 It's like,

00:15:20.820 I'm going to put you

00:15:21.540 in my,

00:15:22.040 I'm going to put me

00:15:23.040 in your hands

00:15:24.320 when I'm most vulnerable.

00:15:26.020 Right?

00:15:26.560 So,

00:15:26.980 you don't want to

00:15:27.520 violate that trust.

00:15:28.920 Yeah.

00:15:30.040 And if you do

00:15:30.920 violate it,

00:15:31.560 then you want to

00:15:32.060 sort that out,

00:15:32.820 apologize,

00:15:33.380 and try not to do it again.

00:15:34.540 The other thing

00:15:35.580 I would say

00:15:36.060 just to close this off

00:15:37.140 is you also have

00:15:38.360 to allow your partner

00:15:39.380 to do a good thing

00:15:40.360 badly.

00:15:41.100 Like when they first

00:15:42.220 start to listen,

00:15:43.500 when they first

00:15:44.060 start to help

00:15:44.900 and untangle,

00:15:46.480 you got to let them

00:15:47.460 flail about a fair bit

00:15:48.840 and you have to remember

00:15:50.160 since you're married

00:15:51.020 that it might take them

00:15:52.340 50 times

00:15:53.300 to get it right.

00:15:54.180 Just like

00:15:54.680 it might take

00:15:55.780 50 dates

00:15:57.260 or 50 meetings

00:15:58.460 before you're

00:15:59.240 even vaguely good

00:16:00.600 at it.

00:16:01.440 50 negotiation sessions.

00:16:03.080 50 isn't very many

00:16:04.800 if you're going to

00:16:05.360 have to do something

00:16:06.240 10,000 times

00:16:07.240 in your life.

00:16:08.860 Right?

00:16:09.180 People will often

00:16:09.940 do something difficult

00:16:10.960 twice,

00:16:11.760 go on a date

00:16:12.400 for example

00:16:13.000 when they haven't

00:16:13.520 been with each other

00:16:14.200 for a long time.

00:16:15.020 It won't go well

00:16:15.860 and they'll think,

00:16:16.440 well,

00:16:16.620 we're certainly

00:16:17.160 not doing that again.

00:16:18.540 It's like,

00:16:19.000 oh really?

00:16:19.500 You're not going

00:16:20.000 to do that again

00:16:20.660 ever?

00:16:21.720 And then you,

00:16:22.640 that happens to people.

00:16:23.640 Then they don't

00:16:24.320 have any romance

00:16:25.760 for decades.

00:16:27.360 That is not wise.

00:16:28.960 That's not wise.

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00:17:47.520 Up next we have

00:17:48.780 Tahani in Tennessee.

00:17:51.840 Hello Tahani, how

00:17:52.920 are you doing?

00:17:54.300 Doing well Dr.

00:17:55.080 Peterson.

00:17:55.960 Nice to see you.

00:17:57.360 Away you go.

00:17:57.800 Good to see you.

00:17:59.060 Okay, my name is

00:18:00.240 Tahani as you know

00:18:01.700 and I'm a stay-at-home

00:18:03.180 mom to our seven-month

00:18:04.240 old son and my

00:18:05.800 husband Michael is the

00:18:06.800 sole provider for our

00:18:07.840 family.

00:18:08.600 My husband is very

00:18:09.400 hard-working and also

00:18:10.540 eager to be involved

00:18:12.000 in the home but

00:18:13.160 sometimes neither one

00:18:14.420 of us knows what that

00:18:15.720 involvement should look

00:18:16.600 like from him.

00:18:17.700 So first of all, how

00:18:18.720 many hours a day are

00:18:20.060 ideal for him to be

00:18:21.080 home with the family

00:18:21.900 since he makes his

00:18:23.340 own hours?

00:18:24.340 And is it essential to

00:18:25.700 take consistent days

00:18:26.620 off each week or

00:18:27.780 should he just work

00:18:28.820 and earn as much as

00:18:29.580 possible?

00:18:30.560 More importantly, when

00:18:31.380 he is home, should it

00:18:32.900 be diaper changes,

00:18:34.500 bottles and bath time

00:18:35.540 like being a Mr.

00:18:36.440 Mom or should he

00:18:37.620 focus on playtime

00:18:38.740 only?

00:18:39.880 Basically, how can

00:18:41.180 someone who works a

00:18:42.320 lot make the greatest

00:18:43.720 impact as a father and

00:18:45.500 what can I do as a

00:18:47.120 wife to encourage him

00:18:48.340 and support that

00:18:49.920 involvement from my

00:18:50.640 husband?

00:18:50.880 So, for the first

00:18:54.580 nine months, in my

00:18:57.080 estimation, the primary

00:18:58.480 role of the father is

00:19:00.520 to support the mother

00:19:03.100 in her intense care of

00:19:05.140 the infant and to spell

00:19:06.420 her off. 1.00

00:19:08.100 And so, he should be

00:19:09.600 focusing on the two of

00:19:11.240 you and how much he

00:19:12.940 should do that is

00:19:14.500 dependent to some

00:19:15.460 degree on how much

00:19:17.320 you need.

00:19:18.000 And because his goal

00:19:20.120 should be to make

00:19:20.880 sure that you aren't

00:19:22.180 overtired and pushed

00:19:24.220 beyond your capacity.

00:19:25.880 Now, whether or not

00:19:27.600 how much he should work

00:19:29.780 and make money, that's

00:19:31.740 something you guys have

00:19:32.640 to negotiate and you

00:19:33.920 will have to negotiate

00:19:34.840 that with your own

00:19:35.920 level of exhaustion

00:19:37.720 and need.

00:19:39.700 Now, having said that,

00:19:41.380 I would also say that

00:19:42.560 those first nine months

00:19:45.280 when the baby is really

00:19:46.640 a dependent infant are

00:19:48.220 also a time where the

00:19:50.120 father can begin to

00:19:51.540 establish a relationship

00:19:52.800 with the child.

00:19:54.380 And any of that care

00:19:56.420 that you describe that's

00:19:57.900 practical, feeding,

00:19:59.880 changing, etc., is a way

00:20:02.620 of doing that.

00:20:03.720 But holding the baby and

00:20:05.600 starting to play, like

00:20:07.160 even with a very young

00:20:08.280 baby, say six months,

00:20:11.060 five months, a father can

00:20:13.400 start to play games.

00:20:14.480 So, one game you can play

00:20:16.200 with a very young infant is

00:20:17.560 to hold the infant up

00:20:19.300 and to make eye contact,

00:20:21.240 which infants quite enjoy,

00:20:23.480 and to, you can make a

00:20:25.900 little sequence of noises,

00:20:28.100 you know, like a little

00:20:29.080 melody or count, one, two,

00:20:30.860 three, tap heads, one, 1.00

00:20:33.480 two, three, tap heads, 0.99

00:20:35.480 one, two, three, tap heads, 1.00

00:20:37.040 one, two, three, then don't.

00:20:38.720 That's a little surprise

00:20:39.800 because a game is often,

00:20:42.240 especially with an infant,

00:20:43.260 a game is the establishment

00:20:45.000 of a predictable routine

00:20:46.720 with a surprise variant.

00:20:49.960 And you'll see babies

00:20:51.380 will laugh about that.

00:20:52.580 Now, if the surprise is

00:20:53.640 too great, they'll cry,

00:20:55.040 so you've got to kind of

00:20:56.180 calibrate that.

00:20:57.080 But that's a very simple

00:20:58.380 game, and men are

00:21:00.140 particularly good at

00:21:01.500 playing with young

00:21:03.920 children.

00:21:04.480 And when men are

00:21:05.800 playing, what they tend

00:21:06.920 to do is to push the

00:21:09.200 baby outside of his or

00:21:11.940 her zone of simple

00:21:14.300 comfort into the

00:21:16.220 zone of intense

00:21:18.540 play, into being

00:21:20.820 thrilled often.

00:21:21.760 And they do that by

00:21:23.400 like pushing the baby

00:21:27.480 in various ways beyond

00:21:29.540 his or her ordinary

00:21:31.060 physical limits,

00:21:32.680 stretching, lifting up,

00:21:35.520 lifting down,

00:21:36.960 flipping.

00:21:38.580 and all of that

00:21:40.540 is a way to help

00:21:41.480 the baby explore

00:21:43.080 the limits of

00:21:44.920 his or her own

00:21:46.100 physical being,

00:21:47.640 the distinction

00:21:48.360 between pain and

00:21:49.480 pleasure,

00:21:49.860 and to develop trust.

00:21:51.860 Like the most important

00:21:52.940 thing that your husband

00:21:53.840 can do, apart from

00:21:55.160 supporting you

00:21:56.520 and making sure

00:21:57.960 you're not burned out

00:21:59.120 and unable to

00:22:01.580 enjoy and be fully

00:22:04.460 engaged in what you're

00:22:05.360 doing, is to play

00:22:07.440 with the infant.

00:22:09.100 Now, that play

00:22:10.200 involves the sorts

00:22:12.160 of things I

00:22:12.640 describe, but also

00:22:13.540 the physical contact

00:22:15.340 and physical touch

00:22:16.200 is extremely important

00:22:17.440 to infants.

00:22:18.680 And so, the goal

00:22:21.300 of your husband is

00:22:22.200 to push the baby

00:22:23.400 continually to his

00:22:26.480 or her physical

00:22:27.360 limits in a manner

00:22:28.960 that both find

00:22:30.580 enjoyable and

00:22:32.700 what, it's

00:22:36.700 enjoyable because

00:22:37.660 there's an element

00:22:38.660 of fun and

00:22:39.540 surprise to it,

00:22:40.240 but there's also

00:22:40.860 an enjoyment in

00:22:41.980 the mutual

00:22:43.000 understanding that

00:22:44.040 develops and the

00:22:45.760 bond that exists

00:22:47.340 because of the

00:22:48.060 trust.

00:22:49.320 Another way of

00:22:50.200 analogizing it, I

00:22:51.520 would say, is

00:22:52.160 your husband is

00:22:54.180 going to dance

00:22:56.000 with the baby.

00:22:57.240 One of the things

00:22:57.920 you see with kids

00:22:59.020 that aren't

00:22:59.680 attended to enough

00:23:00.880 physically,

00:23:01.380 especially as they

00:23:02.820 get to be around

00:23:03.660 three, is that

00:23:05.820 they're vague in

00:23:07.560 their attention

00:23:08.220 and they're

00:23:10.220 uncoordinated and

00:23:13.400 ungraceful in

00:23:14.600 their movements.

00:23:15.700 The Taoists would 0.94

00:23:16.600 regard that as the

00:23:17.640 state of being an

00:23:18.580 uncarved block.

00:23:20.120 And what you see

00:23:20.940 in children like

00:23:22.820 that is they

00:23:23.260 haven't been

00:23:23.720 attended to enough.

00:23:24.640 They haven't been

00:23:25.160 sharpened up.

00:23:27.000 You know, and

00:23:27.540 men who are

00:23:29.200 attending to their

00:23:30.240 children intensely

00:23:32.040 sharpen them up.

00:23:33.400 They keep them on

00:23:34.060 their toes.

00:23:34.680 They play little

00:23:35.580 tricks on them and

00:23:36.420 they ensure they're

00:23:37.840 awake and they push

00:23:39.320 them to their limit and

00:23:40.260 they do that in a

00:23:41.040 manner that's confident

00:23:41.940 and playful and that

00:23:42.920 makes the child

00:23:44.420 understand his or her

00:23:47.660 embodiment much more

00:23:49.440 deeply and also

00:23:50.740 establishes an immense

00:23:52.480 love of play and a

00:23:54.800 solid basis for trust

00:23:56.640 and adventure.

00:23:57.280 And that's a man's 0.93

00:23:58.880 role.

00:24:00.260 I had this

00:24:03.720 conversation with

00:24:04.360 mom actually a bit

00:24:05.420 ago because I work

00:24:06.940 from home and I

00:24:08.000 have for seven or

00:24:10.660 eight years and my

00:24:12.700 husband works from

00:24:13.440 home and so it's

00:24:14.660 complicated to know

00:24:15.820 who does what.

00:24:17.840 What I've figured out

00:24:18.860 was helpful just more

00:24:19.880 practically, so you

00:24:21.160 can tell me what you

00:24:21.700 think about this, was

00:24:22.680 diaper changes.

00:24:24.440 I feel like you

00:24:25.760 weren't a fan of

00:24:26.560 diaper changes.

00:24:27.420 No, I didn't mind

00:24:28.180 once I learned how to

00:24:29.000 do it.

00:24:29.400 That was really

00:24:30.040 helpful, especially if

00:24:31.040 you're breastfeeding 0.98

00:24:31.580 because then you're

00:24:32.060 already kind of on call

00:24:33.380 all the time and

00:24:34.060 attached to the baby.

00:24:35.320 Diaper changes were

00:24:36.100 really helpful.

00:24:37.800 It doesn't take very

00:24:38.440 long, but those were

00:24:39.220 really helpful.

00:24:41.140 And then she asked

00:24:43.500 about how much per day,

00:24:45.720 which is hard to say

00:24:46.640 too, but you mentioned

00:24:48.020 enough so that you're

00:24:49.400 not resentful basically

00:24:50.580 and that you're still

00:24:51.340 enjoying the baby.

00:24:52.160 And we figured that

00:24:54.960 was at least a little

00:24:57.120 bit in the morning, a

00:24:58.820 little bit in the

00:24:59.360 evening.

00:24:59.580 That's minimum.

00:25:01.360 And then I think it's

00:25:02.280 tricky when people work

00:25:03.060 from home because it's

00:25:03.700 kind of like, oh, you're

00:25:04.440 in the other room.

00:25:05.140 What are you doing?

00:25:06.280 I'm starting to get

00:25:07.080 tired.

00:25:08.020 You know, maybe I'm a

00:25:09.300 bit annoyed.

00:25:11.940 And taking like five

00:25:13.480 minute breaks to come

00:25:14.500 say hi is really

00:25:15.700 beneficial too.

00:25:17.220 So I think this is

00:25:18.120 just for the mom.

00:25:19.040 Explain that too.

00:25:19.660 Well, like you get,

00:25:21.200 especially with little

00:25:22.440 babies, you get 0.98

00:25:23.580 overwhelmed, especially

00:25:25.240 if you're sleep deprived

00:25:26.420 just the first three

00:25:27.240 months, particularly

00:25:29.280 with your first.

00:25:30.600 But after it says, say

00:25:31.900 the baby's fussy, you

00:25:32.980 haven't slept, the

00:25:33.920 baby's not sleeping

00:25:34.620 well, you're trying to

00:25:35.840 breastfeed, you're not 1.00

00:25:36.560 sure if they're hungry,

00:25:37.300 you're just not sure

00:25:37.860 really what's going on.

00:25:38.660 You're like, I can't

00:25:39.620 hold a crying baby.

00:25:41.720 Anymore.

00:25:42.200 Anymore.

00:25:42.600 Yeah, yeah.

00:25:42.980 I can't do it.

00:25:43.560 That's the point when

00:25:44.340 you're like, can you

00:25:45.120 take the baby for five 0.97

00:25:46.000 minutes?

00:25:46.200 I need to breathe.

00:25:47.320 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:25:47.900 You have to watch the

00:25:49.980 role of the husband in

00:25:51.000 the first seven, nine to

00:25:53.220 nine months is really to

00:25:54.560 keep a really sharp eye on

00:25:56.420 the mother and make sure

00:25:58.960 that food helps too.

00:26:00.640 Yes.

00:26:00.940 And make sure that she

00:26:02.180 isn't pushed beyond her

00:26:04.140 limits.

00:26:04.440 And that's problematic

00:26:05.640 because she's constantly on

00:26:07.220 call and her sleep is

00:26:08.740 disrupted.

00:26:09.440 So you have to keep an eye

00:26:10.680 on that.

00:26:11.180 And if she gets teary or

00:26:13.320 upset or irritable and

00:26:15.480 those things will all

00:26:16.580 happen, she has to be 0.97

00:26:18.900 spelled off.

00:26:20.060 Yeah.

00:26:20.140 Oh, that's what you

00:26:21.020 meant by spelled off.

00:26:22.120 I have no idea what that

00:26:23.080 means.

00:26:23.400 Yeah, yeah.

00:26:24.780 I think it's also the

00:26:27.380 role of the wife or the 0.99

00:26:29.060 mother to communicate

00:26:31.340 with the husband so that

00:26:32.340 when they're at their

00:26:33.600 limit, they go, I need

00:26:35.520 help right now.

00:26:36.280 Yeah.

00:26:36.780 Instead of sitting there

00:26:37.860 and like freaking out.

00:26:39.060 Yeah.

00:26:39.260 And you're not being

00:26:39.880 needy because the first

00:26:41.060 period of time is really

00:26:42.340 crazy, especially if you're

00:26:43.660 by yourself and you don't

00:26:44.760 have help, kind of.

00:26:45.760 Uh, so it's okay to be

00:26:47.540 like, I'm at my limit

00:26:48.520 right now.

00:26:49.120 I need a breather.

00:26:50.160 And a five minute breather

00:26:52.100 is actually pretty decent.

00:26:55.540 It's when there's no.

00:26:57.040 Yeah.

00:26:57.260 Well, that's, that's, uh,

00:26:59.560 for on the mother's side,

00:27:01.300 like she has to guard

00:27:03.640 herself against the guilt

00:27:04.960 that says I should be a

00:27:06.300 hundred percent thrilled to

00:27:07.460 be with my baby all the

00:27:08.740 time.

00:27:09.180 And it's like, no, 90% of

00:27:12.060 the time will do or 80% or

00:27:14.080 75%, right?

00:27:15.700 That's still a lot.

00:27:16.640 It's still a lot.

00:27:17.620 Yeah.

00:27:17.840 And, and she, you know,

00:27:19.620 when you're taking care of

00:27:21.040 someone, and this goes for

00:27:22.220 the elderly or for people

00:27:23.300 who are ill too, while you're

00:27:25.320 taking care of them,

00:27:26.920 especially if it's a long

00:27:28.740 term arrangement, you have to

00:27:31.700 ensure that you're taking

00:27:33.460 care of yourself because you

00:27:35.620 won't be able to do it

00:27:36.760 effectively in the long run

00:27:38.420 if you're pushed beyond

00:27:40.720 your actual capacity.

00:27:42.640 And that's, well, that's

00:27:44.400 where you start to do

00:27:45.860 things like consider your

00:27:47.140 resentment as well.

00:27:48.280 If you notice that you're

00:27:49.220 irritable and resentful, you

00:27:51.320 want to determine and talk to

00:27:52.900 your partner about whether

00:27:54.000 or not you're just being

00:27:55.680 irresponsible and immature

00:27:57.200 because there's a lot of

00:27:58.240 maturation that has to

00:27:59.240 happen when you're a new

00:28:00.080 parent or whether you're

00:28:02.100 demanding too much of

00:28:04.540 yourself, right?

00:28:05.700 That's also a kind of

00:28:06.900 delusion, you know, Eric

00:28:08.440 Neumann, who was Carl Jung's

00:28:10.300 most accomplished student

00:28:12.940 by a lot, said that you

00:28:16.220 shouldn't try to be better

00:28:17.860 than you are.

00:28:18.860 And what he meant by that

00:28:20.180 was not don't improve

00:28:22.380 because you should improve,

00:28:24.120 but don't fool yourself into

00:28:26.000 thinking that you're a

00:28:27.060 better person than you

00:28:28.240 actually are, not least

00:28:29.920 because some of that

00:28:31.520 irritation you might feel

00:28:33.180 at being on call

00:28:36.380 constantly is actually a

00:28:38.520 manifestation of a

00:28:39.540 necessary self-protective

00:28:40.980 mechanism.

00:28:41.580 Yeah, agreed.

00:28:42.700 Yeah, yeah.

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00:29:42.280 Next caller?

00:29:43.260 Next caller.

00:29:44.060 Let's do it.

00:29:44.900 We have a caller from Iowa.

00:29:46.760 Hello, Dr. Peterson.

00:29:48.120 The question I have for you is

00:29:49.640 my wife and I have three kids

00:29:51.860 between one and seven.

00:29:53.680 And the question is,

00:29:54.800 what is the right age or

00:29:56.560 maturity to discuss LGBT

00:29:58.820 ideologies?

00:30:00.180 Both of my siblings identify

00:30:02.280 as LGBT, which has really 1.00

00:30:04.400 sped up our timeline.

00:30:05.740 And is there any way to

00:30:06.740 discuss this without ruining

00:30:08.200 their childhood innocence?

00:30:10.320 We want this information to

00:30:11.440 come from us as their parents

00:30:13.180 and not from anybody else.

00:30:14.840 We're trying to prepare them

00:30:15.980 for the world and want to be

00:30:17.160 a trusted source of

00:30:18.120 information for them.

00:30:19.680 So how and when do we

00:30:21.500 discuss this?

00:30:23.100 Well, I would say as a rule

00:30:25.280 of thumb that you take your

00:30:27.260 cues from your children in

00:30:30.100 a situation like that,

00:30:31.640 it isn't necessary for you

00:30:34.360 all things considered

00:30:36.000 to provide information

00:30:38.120 you're not being asked about.

00:30:40.880 Now, if you observe

00:30:42.660 your children carefully,

00:30:44.640 an example might be that

00:30:46.260 when children are ready

00:30:49.080 to be toilet trained,

00:30:50.880 they'll show an interest

00:30:53.100 in such things that's

00:30:55.340 somewhat subtle and will

00:30:57.100 disappear if you ignore it.

00:30:58.520 But that's a good time.

00:30:59.940 That's a time to strike

00:31:01.460 when the iron is hot.

00:31:03.320 Your children will bring,

00:31:05.880 if you set up a regular

00:31:07.340 habit of communicating

00:31:08.960 with them, and the dinner

00:31:10.540 table is a very good time

00:31:11.880 to do that because that's

00:31:13.080 a regular meeting time,

00:31:14.640 or perhaps before bed,

00:31:16.840 that's sometimes a time

00:31:17.920 when one parent or the other

00:31:19.780 or both can spend some

00:31:21.280 intense communicative time

00:31:23.000 with your kids.

00:31:23.700 If you make a habit

00:31:25.440 of that being the time

00:31:26.880 to bring up issues

00:31:28.960 or concerns

00:31:29.600 or ask questions,

00:31:30.700 then that gives

00:31:31.720 your children

00:31:32.340 an opportunity

00:31:33.300 to bring their

00:31:35.140 concerns to you.

00:31:37.140 And so I would say

00:31:38.040 you want to establish

00:31:39.020 that communicative pattern

00:31:41.100 as a habit,

00:31:41.820 and then you want to

00:31:42.820 take your cues

00:31:43.760 from your children.

00:31:46.440 Now, let's see

00:31:47.440 if I can be more specific

00:31:48.640 about that

00:31:49.200 on the LGBT front.

00:31:50.560 I'll tell you,

00:31:54.600 I'll give you

00:31:56.720 an overarching strategy

00:31:58.400 for this.

00:31:59.520 We worked this out

00:32:00.820 at ARC,

00:32:02.000 which is the Alliance

00:32:02.880 for Responsible Citizenship.

00:32:04.700 This is a group

00:32:05.980 that I helped found

00:32:07.240 that is trying

00:32:10.200 to develop a vision

00:32:12.400 for a modern,

00:32:14.740 classic liberalism

00:32:15.840 and conservatism.

00:32:18.220 And one of the

00:32:20.920 most tense

00:32:23.660 negotiations

00:32:24.720 we had

00:32:25.340 with the interested

00:32:26.040 parties

00:32:26.500 of about 40 people,

00:32:28.640 a number of whom

00:32:29.920 were gay

00:32:31.560 and quite,

00:32:35.020 what would you say,

00:32:37.280 they're well-known people.

00:32:39.040 This was the hardest

00:32:40.200 discussion that we had.

00:32:41.540 It took us about a year

00:32:42.640 to really sort it out.

00:32:44.420 And here's how we did it.

00:32:46.040 And I think it's right.

00:32:47.200 And we presented

00:32:52.440 the proposition

00:32:54.200 that every concept

00:32:57.280 has an ideal

00:32:59.340 at the center

00:33:00.220 and concentric rings

00:33:01.980 of deviation

00:33:02.900 from that ideal

00:33:04.180 around it.

00:33:05.880 And by deviation,

00:33:07.560 I also don't mean,

00:33:08.660 I don't mean deviation

00:33:10.120 in the necessarily

00:33:11.020 pathological way.

00:33:12.180 I also mean experimentation.

00:33:13.540 The core of

00:33:16.220 sexual

00:33:17.460 identity

00:33:19.860 that's

00:33:21.740 socially harmonious

00:33:24.460 and productive

00:33:25.120 in the medium

00:33:26.420 to long run

00:33:27.220 is,

00:33:28.460 has to be

00:33:29.520 long-term,

00:33:31.460 monogamous,

00:33:32.500 committed,

00:33:33.420 child-centered,

00:33:34.600 heterosexual couples.

00:33:35.860 It has to be.

00:33:37.760 Well, why?

00:33:38.820 Well,

00:33:39.360 because that's

00:33:40.100 the only arrangement,

00:33:41.300 the minimal arrangement

00:33:42.180 that ensures

00:33:43.100 average

00:33:44.920 contentment,

00:33:46.680 satisfaction,

00:33:48.620 stability for children,

00:33:50.640 propagation into the future,

00:33:52.100 and the foundation

00:33:52.900 for culture.

00:33:54.060 Okay,

00:33:54.480 now,

00:33:54.760 so now you have

00:33:55.660 the ideal

00:33:56.240 in the center.

00:33:57.080 That's the flag

00:33:58.020 you plant

00:33:58.780 in the center.

00:34:00.300 Now you face

00:34:01.300 another conundrum.

00:34:02.320 It's like,

00:34:02.600 okay,

00:34:03.020 well,

00:34:03.300 fine,

00:34:03.720 but who

00:34:05.160 approximates

00:34:07.140 that ideal

00:34:07.980 perfectly?

00:34:08.920 And the answer

00:34:09.520 is,

00:34:10.220 really,

00:34:10.740 nobody.

00:34:11.720 You know,

00:34:12.120 no marriage 0.74

00:34:12.760 is always happy.

00:34:14.700 40 to 50%

00:34:16.040 of people

00:34:16.560 are likely

00:34:16.980 to get divorced.

00:34:18.100 There's no shortage

00:34:19.020 of single parents.

00:34:20.720 And there's

00:34:21.200 the

00:34:21.780 LGB,

00:34:23.480 I'm not going

00:34:25.120 to include

00:34:25.660 the T

00:34:26.100 because that's

00:34:26.820 just going

00:34:27.260 too far

00:34:27.760 in my estimation.

00:34:29.540 Community,

00:34:30.620 there's

00:34:32.440 all sorts

00:34:33.260 of ways

00:34:33.640 we deviate

00:34:34.260 from the ideal.

00:34:35.840 And some

00:34:36.480 of that's

00:34:37.000 a matter

00:34:37.360 of experimentation.

00:34:39.060 There are

00:34:39.300 other forms

00:34:40.340 of family

00:34:41.060 that can work,

00:34:42.120 although I would say

00:34:42.860 the farther

00:34:43.420 you get

00:34:43.960 from that core ideal,

00:34:45.160 the more difficult

00:34:45.760 it is to make it work

00:34:47.460 and to integrate it.

00:34:49.720 And so,

00:34:50.120 that's the sort

00:34:50.820 of meta-strategy.

00:34:52.080 So,

00:34:52.700 then

00:34:53.000 knowing that,

00:34:54.740 you can

00:34:55.040 say to your children,

00:34:57.560 look,

00:34:58.440 if you deviate

00:34:59.760 from that path,

00:35:01.540 it's going

00:35:03.640 to be

00:35:04.020 extremely

00:35:05.140 complicated

00:35:05.840 for you

00:35:06.500 at minimum.

00:35:07.740 It's also

00:35:08.420 complicated

00:35:08.960 for everyone else.

00:35:10.220 Now,

00:35:10.540 if you're

00:35:10.860 willing to

00:35:11.620 take on

00:35:13.240 that responsibility

00:35:14.220 and you feel

00:35:15.800 compelled

00:35:17.220 by necessity

00:35:18.560 to

00:35:19.560 wander

00:35:20.680 away

00:35:21.280 from the

00:35:21.680 ideal,

00:35:23.300 then

00:35:23.940 understand

00:35:26.240 that that's

00:35:26.860 going to be

00:35:27.340 difficult

00:35:27.740 and

00:35:28.300 also

00:35:30.600 inevitable

00:35:31.240 over the

00:35:31.820 course of

00:35:32.220 your life.

00:35:32.940 And

00:35:33.040 what does

00:35:35.200 that mean?

00:35:35.940 It means

00:35:36.500 have some

00:35:37.280 patience and

00:35:37.920 tolerance

00:35:38.420 because you're

00:35:39.940 going to

00:35:40.180 deviate from

00:35:40.740 the ideal

00:35:41.240 just like

00:35:41.840 people who

00:35:42.880 occupy

00:35:44.940 different

00:35:46.440 forms of

00:35:47.180 relationship.

00:35:47.800 I don't

00:35:49.260 know a

00:35:49.640 better way

00:35:50.100 to

00:35:50.360 conceptualize

00:35:51.460 that for

00:35:51.880 kids.

00:35:52.320 Now,

00:35:52.700 you know,

00:35:53.020 your kids

00:35:53.480 have to be

00:35:54.000 somewhat

00:35:54.360 sophisticated

00:35:55.000 to

00:35:56.360 understand

00:35:57.100 that,

00:35:58.000 but I

00:35:58.560 think if

00:35:59.220 you let

00:35:59.860 them ask

00:36:00.560 the

00:36:00.760 questions,

00:36:01.560 then you'll

00:36:02.480 know when

00:36:03.020 they're ready

00:36:03.620 for the

00:36:04.740 information.

00:36:05.940 I wouldn't

00:36:06.540 act

00:36:08.460 precipitously

00:36:09.420 even to

00:36:10.880 inoculate

00:36:11.700 them,

00:36:12.120 so to speak,

00:36:12.700 against the

00:36:13.160 ideology.

00:36:13.660 If they're

00:36:15.100 disturbed and

00:36:16.000 you've set

00:36:16.440 up the

00:36:16.760 situation so

00:36:17.560 that open

00:36:18.120 communication is

00:36:18.980 possible in

00:36:20.100 the household

00:36:20.600 and they

00:36:22.040 encounter

00:36:22.480 something at

00:36:23.160 school or

00:36:23.780 among their

00:36:24.220 friends or

00:36:24.700 online that's

00:36:25.360 confusing to

00:36:26.020 them,

00:36:26.400 then they'll

00:36:27.080 bring that

00:36:27.560 to you and

00:36:28.420 you can

00:36:28.740 answer enough

00:36:30.280 so that

00:36:30.860 they're

00:36:31.200 satisfied and

00:36:32.700 then you can

00:36:33.920 wait for the

00:36:34.420 next questions

00:36:35.080 to arise.

00:36:35.860 I don't

00:36:36.260 really know a

00:36:36.800 better way of

00:36:37.500 dealing with it

00:36:38.360 than that.

00:36:39.040 I like that

00:36:39.900 answer.

00:36:40.640 We managed

00:36:41.680 a consensus

00:36:42.460 among the

00:36:43.460 ARC group

00:36:44.540 which is

00:36:45.660 composed of

00:36:46.920 people with

00:36:47.320 very diverse

00:36:48.040 viewpoints.

00:36:49.060 We managed

00:36:50.180 a consensus

00:36:50.740 around there.

00:36:51.300 The notion

00:36:52.120 of a center

00:36:52.980 with rings

00:36:54.500 of experimentation

00:36:55.500 around it,

00:36:56.300 that also gives

00:36:56.960 you some play

00:36:57.600 in the system,

00:36:58.340 right?

00:36:58.560 It's because

00:36:59.000 people can be

00:37:00.920 quite different

00:37:01.580 from one another

00:37:02.320 and you still

00:37:03.240 need a standard.

00:37:04.320 It's like,

00:37:04.680 on average,

00:37:05.580 this will work

00:37:06.420 best.

00:37:07.040 It's like,

00:37:07.420 but I'm not

00:37:08.100 average.

00:37:08.820 It's like,

00:37:09.260 maybe you're

00:37:09.800 not.

00:37:10.480 Like,

00:37:11.000 probably you're

00:37:11.820 more average

00:37:12.460 than you think

00:37:13.220 and you

00:37:13.600 should pray

00:37:14.320 that that's

00:37:14.920 true.

00:37:15.340 Because if

00:37:16.000 you really

00:37:16.620 are different,

00:37:18.620 like,

00:37:19.280 different,

00:37:20.120 one definition

00:37:21.420 of different

00:37:22.280 is special,

00:37:23.540 another definition

00:37:24.500 of different 0.86

00:37:25.080 is miserable 0.54

00:37:26.220 and doomed, 0.98

00:37:27.500 right?

00:37:27.920 And those

00:37:28.300 can go

00:37:28.680 together.

00:37:29.460 And maybe

00:37:29.900 you are

00:37:30.280 special and

00:37:31.100 you have

00:37:31.440 to walk

00:37:31.940 your own

00:37:32.360 path,

00:37:32.940 but boy,

00:37:34.220 you walk

00:37:35.920 off the

00:37:36.460 straight,

00:37:36.880 narrow path

00:37:37.500 at your

00:37:38.100 own peril.

00:37:39.280 That doesn't

00:37:39.780 mean it isn't

00:37:40.280 necessary.

00:37:40.960 It might be

00:37:41.480 necessary.

00:37:42.040 I don't

00:37:43.280 think kids

00:37:43.720 care.

00:37:45.140 I remember

00:37:45.520 when I was

00:37:46.080 young,

00:37:46.940 and I feel

00:37:47.680 like you

00:37:47.980 used to

00:37:48.400 pull us

00:37:48.960 out on

00:37:50.320 days.

00:37:51.080 We'd have

00:37:51.360 these random

00:37:51.760 homeschool days.

00:37:53.180 I don't know

00:37:53.500 why we were

00:37:54.040 pulled out

00:37:54.440 on certain

00:37:54.840 days,

00:37:55.200 but I feel

00:37:55.480 like it

00:37:55.660 was to

00:37:55.920 avoid

00:37:56.360 certain

00:37:57.020 indoctrination

00:37:57.740 things that

00:37:58.280 were already

00:37:59.060 happening in

00:37:59.600 our school.

00:38:00.620 But we

00:38:00.960 had,

00:38:02.080 Julian had a

00:38:02.800 really good

00:38:03.200 friend whose

00:38:04.860 parents were

00:38:05.620 lesbians. 1.00

00:38:06.200 I don't

00:38:07.560 think anyone

00:38:08.020 cared,

00:38:08.720 really.

00:38:09.560 They're like,

00:38:09.980 that's

00:38:10.260 different.

00:38:10.960 We didn't

00:38:11.340 really think

00:38:11.880 about it.

00:38:12.380 We were

00:38:12.480 just like,

00:38:12.960 that's not

00:38:13.380 a mom and

00:38:13.720 a dad,

00:38:14.040 it's a mom

00:38:14.340 and a mom,

00:38:14.780 that was

00:38:14.980 about it.

00:38:15.340 That's also

00:38:15.880 the kind

00:38:16.340 of tolerance

00:38:17.500 that I'm

00:38:18.180 talking about,

00:38:18.940 and I think

00:38:19.440 that that's

00:38:20.120 quite typical,

00:38:21.280 that was very

00:38:21.900 typical in

00:38:22.600 Canada in

00:38:23.680 the 1990s.

00:38:25.480 Yeah.

00:38:25.840 Like,

00:38:26.520 the basic,

00:38:28.080 we had already

00:38:28.760 established the

00:38:30.640 social milieu

00:38:31.900 that the

00:38:33.040 progressives now

00:38:33.920 claim to be

00:38:34.600 aiming at.

00:38:35.240 Oh,

00:38:35.580 I know.

00:38:36.220 Nobody cared.

00:38:36.520 And then

00:38:36.740 destroyed it.

00:38:37.220 No,

00:38:37.620 actually they just

00:38:38.280 destroyed it.

00:38:38.920 Because now we

00:38:39.520 don't have that

00:38:40.060 anymore.

00:38:40.640 Now we're less

00:38:41.260 tolerant.

00:38:41.440 Where we lived,

00:38:42.880 where we lived in

00:38:44.260 particular,

00:38:45.000 no one cared.

00:38:45.920 No one cared if 0.96

00:38:46.520 you were black, 0.94

00:38:47.220 no one cared if 0.98

00:38:47.780 you were Asian,

00:38:48.920 no one even

00:38:49.360 really noticed,

00:38:50.220 especially the

00:38:50.720 kids.

00:38:51.320 No one cared if 0.97

00:38:52.000 you were gay. 0.99

00:38:52.920 The rule was, 0.97

00:38:53.980 don't be too

00:38:57.760 annoying,

00:38:59.400 and assume

00:39:01.340 goodwill,

00:39:02.660 and everyone

00:39:03.420 will get along,

00:39:04.260 and that worked.

00:39:05.240 And then,

00:39:06.460 well,

00:39:06.740 then all hell

00:39:07.280 broke loose

00:39:07.760 around 2010,

00:39:09.040 and that all,

00:39:10.300 much of that

00:39:11.060 fell apart.

00:39:11.960 And I could see

00:39:12.780 some of that

00:39:13.340 starting to happen

00:39:14.120 when you guys

00:39:14.740 were kids,

00:39:15.280 but mostly,

00:39:16.380 you were also

00:39:17.940 raised in quite

00:39:20.000 a progressive

00:39:20.620 milieu.

00:39:21.420 Oh,

00:39:21.580 yeah.

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00:40:57.360 We have a

00:40:58.260 pre-recorded call

00:40:59.080 from a viewer in

00:40:59.800 Beijing, China, so

00:41:01.340 that's cool.

00:41:02.360 Yeah, yeah, well

00:41:03.200 I'm looking forward

00:41:03.820 to that.

00:41:05.340 My name is

00:41:06.160 Michnia, I'm from

00:41:07.340 Romania, and

00:41:08.240 my wife is from

00:41:09.080 India.

00:41:09.940 We live in

00:41:10.460 Beijing, China.

00:41:11.640 We have two boys

00:41:12.600 who were born in

00:41:13.580 Beijing.

00:41:14.600 Their ages are

00:41:15.500 two and four.

00:41:16.880 The children have

00:41:17.640 Romanian passports.

00:41:19.160 We have three home

00:41:20.020 languages, English,

00:41:21.280 which is dominant,

00:41:22.360 Romanian, my

00:41:23.080 language, and

00:41:24.100 Chinese, spoken by

00:41:25.400 the live-in

00:41:26.060 babysitter.

00:41:27.140 The children go to

00:41:28.020 a British school

00:41:28.740 where I also work

00:41:29.940 as a teacher.

00:41:31.060 We celebrate

00:41:31.660 holidays and

00:41:32.400 festivals of all

00:41:33.400 three cultures,

00:41:34.400 Indian, Romanian,

00:41:35.060 and Chinese.

00:41:36.760 My question is

00:41:37.580 as follows.

00:41:38.840 Given that my

00:41:39.460 children are

00:41:40.060 growing up in a

00:41:40.920 multicultural

00:41:41.560 environment with

00:41:42.920 influences from

00:41:43.780 Indian, British,

00:41:44.700 Chinese, and

00:41:45.280 Romanian cultures,

00:41:46.400 how can we, as

00:41:47.480 parents, best

00:41:48.560 navigate the

00:41:49.380 balance between

00:41:50.160 preserving the

00:41:51.080 unique values of

00:41:52.020 each culture and

00:41:53.340 ensuring they

00:41:54.300 develop a strong

00:41:55.200 sense of personal

00:41:56.160 identity?

00:41:57.400 That's cool.

00:41:58.560 Three languages.

00:41:59.400 Good job.

00:41:59.800 I guess I

00:42:01.540 would ask, to

00:42:03.700 begin with, how

00:42:04.940 you and your

00:42:05.640 wife negotiate

00:42:06.640 that.

00:42:08.400 No, it

00:42:08.920 would, that's

00:42:11.080 a very hard

00:42:12.200 question because

00:42:13.100 multiculturalism

00:42:15.340 brings the

00:42:16.300 advantage of

00:42:17.100 diversity, let's

00:42:18.320 say, and

00:42:19.320 that's multiplicity

00:42:20.460 and difference of

00:42:22.020 opinion and the

00:42:23.040 disadvantage of

00:42:24.380 confusion and

00:42:26.020 conflict on the

00:42:27.520 conceptual and

00:42:28.200 ethical side.

00:42:29.000 And so, one

00:42:30.540 definition of

00:42:31.460 multiculturalism is

00:42:32.780 balkanization and

00:42:34.380 that's the

00:42:34.960 precursor to

00:42:36.020 continual war.

00:42:38.020 And so, those

00:42:39.160 who think that

00:42:39.960 diversity brings

00:42:41.640 integration are,

00:42:43.980 by necessity, are 1.00

00:42:45.740 absolute fools. 1.00

00:42:47.280 Obviously, that 1.00

00:42:48.360 isn't the case.

00:42:49.800 How do you

00:42:50.400 negotiate that in a

00:42:51.500 household?

00:42:53.340 You're teaching,

00:42:54.640 your children have

00:42:55.340 the opportunity to

00:42:56.120 learn these

00:42:56.500 different languages

00:42:57.260 influences, and

00:42:58.720 they're exposed to

00:43:00.500 a variety of

00:43:01.180 different cultural

00:43:02.680 influences.

00:43:03.760 If they're

00:43:04.640 thriving, then I

00:43:07.160 would leave that

00:43:08.020 question alone

00:43:09.300 until they're in

00:43:11.420 their teen years.

00:43:13.600 And then I would

00:43:14.820 say, if that

00:43:15.840 becomes an issue

00:43:16.920 for them, if the

00:43:17.880 fact that they're

00:43:18.740 pulled in multiple

00:43:20.680 directions by their

00:43:21.640 different cultures

00:43:22.440 becomes an issue,

00:43:24.000 then they'll have

00:43:25.500 to educate

00:43:26.240 themselves in

00:43:27.720 relationship to

00:43:28.720 how an integrated

00:43:30.600 vision of culture

00:43:32.720 might be

00:43:33.540 formulated.

00:43:37.100 And the best

00:43:38.180 sources I know

00:43:39.720 for that endeavor

00:43:41.080 are the thinkers

00:43:42.600 in the school

00:43:43.780 that aggregated

00:43:45.360 around Carl Jung

00:43:46.600 and Mircea

00:43:47.740 Eliade, who was

00:43:48.840 a Romanian

00:43:49.500 historian of

00:43:50.900 religions.

00:43:51.360 And what that

00:43:54.500 school of

00:43:55.260 psychological,

00:43:56.380 sociological, and

00:43:57.320 historical investigators

00:43:58.700 attempted to do

00:44:00.220 was to map out

00:44:02.020 the commonalities

00:44:03.160 of pattern

00:44:03.960 across different

00:44:05.480 religious and

00:44:07.200 sacred systems.

00:44:08.900 Now, you see,

00:44:09.820 there's a

00:44:10.740 precursor to

00:44:13.640 this,

00:44:14.640 precedent for

00:44:16.520 this,

00:44:17.260 that's very,

00:44:18.160 very deep.

00:44:18.600 Western civilization

00:44:21.020 arose because

00:44:22.200 the philosophical

00:44:23.580 tradition of

00:44:24.800 Greece

00:44:25.380 mapped

00:44:27.920 strangely

00:44:29.020 onto the

00:44:30.820 prophetic

00:44:32.320 and legal

00:44:32.980 tradition of

00:44:33.860 Judaism.

00:44:34.800 And the

00:44:35.720 synthesis of

00:44:36.660 those two

00:44:37.360 really laid

00:44:38.960 the groundwork

00:44:39.600 for the

00:44:39.980 Western tradition.

00:44:41.240 And what you

00:44:42.000 saw in Greece

00:44:42.920 was the

00:44:43.720 emergence of

00:44:44.520 a conceptualization

00:44:45.740 of logos,

00:44:46.380 and you

00:44:48.060 saw a

00:44:48.700 parallel

00:44:49.060 emergence of

00:44:50.300 a conceptualization

00:44:51.600 of logos,

00:44:53.580 particularly in

00:44:54.300 Christianity.

00:44:55.100 And it turned

00:44:55.780 out that there

00:44:56.400 was a

00:44:56.760 parallelism

00:44:57.560 between those

00:44:58.200 two that

00:44:58.560 allowed them

00:44:59.020 to be

00:44:59.280 amalgamated.

00:45:00.320 Now, the

00:45:01.340 Jungian school,

00:45:03.680 the school that

00:45:04.360 Eliade was a

00:45:05.140 part of and

00:45:05.800 a leader of,

00:45:07.640 were looking

00:45:08.780 at a

00:45:09.500 synthesis of

00:45:10.360 that sort

00:45:10.920 that was

00:45:11.400 deep across

00:45:12.960 an even

00:45:13.640 broader range

00:45:14.520 of cultural

00:45:15.060 traditions.

00:45:15.640 And I

00:45:16.500 don't know

00:45:16.960 of any

00:45:17.360 thinkers that

00:45:18.080 did a

00:45:18.460 better job

00:45:19.240 of pulling

00:45:21.900 together across

00:45:22.880 that diversity

00:45:23.660 than that

00:45:25.300 school.

00:45:25.960 I would like

00:45:26.760 to think that

00:45:27.360 the work that

00:45:27.880 I've done,

00:45:29.160 particularly in

00:45:29.880 my book,

00:45:30.360 Maps of

00:45:30.780 Meaning,

00:45:31.220 in We Who

00:45:31.820 Wrestle with

00:45:32.360 God,

00:45:33.000 I'm working

00:45:33.620 on that as

00:45:34.160 well in a

00:45:34.540 new book

00:45:35.100 called The

00:45:35.860 Foundation of

00:45:36.540 the World,

00:45:37.240 which is an

00:45:37.800 analysis of

00:45:38.520 the gospel

00:45:39.540 stories,

00:45:40.100 is a

00:45:40.340 continuation of

00:45:41.280 that integration

00:45:42.040 tradition.

00:45:43.280 See, you're

00:45:43.740 asking a very

00:45:44.420 difficult question,

00:45:45.300 which is how

00:45:45.840 do you bring

00:45:46.280 harmony out

00:45:47.960 of radically

00:45:49.560 different cultural

00:45:50.460 traditions?

00:45:51.540 And what you

00:45:52.160 look for is

00:45:53.200 profound

00:45:54.540 commonalities,

00:45:55.480 but you have to

00:45:55.900 go way down

00:45:56.600 into the

00:45:57.060 structure of

00:45:57.500 the beliefs

00:45:57.820 to find those

00:45:58.440 commonalities,

00:45:59.020 and you

00:46:00.000 won't only

00:46:00.900 find commonalities.

00:46:03.100 So, this is a

00:46:04.360 massive, you're

00:46:05.480 asking the same

00:46:06.320 question as how

00:46:07.160 do you bring a

00:46:07.940 monotheism out of

00:46:09.160 a polytheistic

00:46:10.200 state?

00:46:11.740 These are

00:46:12.580 questions that

00:46:13.680 take cultures

00:46:14.440 thousands of

00:46:15.600 years to

00:46:16.140 answer, and

00:46:17.420 so it's very

00:46:18.980 difficult to do

00:46:19.780 something like

00:46:20.320 that in the

00:46:20.800 span of your

00:46:21.320 own life.

00:46:21.920 If you feel

00:46:23.020 obligated or

00:46:24.420 required to do

00:46:25.100 that, I don't

00:46:25.820 know of a

00:46:26.300 better source of

00:46:27.120 information than

00:46:28.060 the writings of

00:46:29.320 the school that

00:46:30.640 I just described.

00:46:32.040 Carl Jung's

00:46:32.880 works,

00:46:33.440 Mircea Eliade's

00:46:34.460 works, the work

00:46:35.140 of the Bollingen

00:46:35.880 School, they're

00:46:37.040 the people who

00:46:37.840 did this

00:46:39.520 properly, as

00:46:41.340 opposed to the

00:46:42.040 post-modernists

00:46:42.920 who just

00:46:43.400 accepted radical

00:46:45.060 fractionation and

00:46:46.860 diversity as the

00:46:48.620 desired end goal,

00:46:49.780 which is clearly

00:46:50.380 not the case for

00:46:51.240 you.

00:46:51.540 You want something

00:46:52.700 to emerge for

00:46:53.380 your children that's

00:46:54.180 integrated and

00:46:54.920 foundational.

00:46:55.880 So, that's a

00:46:56.340 complicated answer,

00:46:57.280 but there's no

00:46:57.760 simple way of

00:46:58.980 addressing that

00:46:59.660 question.

00:47:01.160 Do you think,

00:47:02.180 just to wrap

00:47:02.960 this up, do

00:47:03.980 you think it's,

00:47:06.480 I mean,

00:47:07.480 absolutely

00:47:08.080 necessary, or

00:47:09.400 can you just

00:47:09.820 wait until the

00:47:10.280 kid's old enough?

00:47:11.080 Because what I've

00:47:11.640 seen from people,

00:47:12.340 especially who have

00:47:12.940 very strong

00:47:14.580 backgrounds, is

00:47:16.300 putting that on

00:47:17.220 their kid, which

00:47:18.720 is like, do you

00:47:19.560 need to make

00:47:20.160 them, I'm

00:47:20.580 Canadian, so I

00:47:21.360 almost feel like I

00:47:21.940 don't have a

00:47:22.340 culture.

00:47:22.740 I feel like that's

00:47:23.340 kind of, like, it

00:47:24.400 just doesn't really

00:47:25.020 feel like that to

00:47:25.660 me.

00:47:25.840 And I was

00:47:26.160 interested in my

00:47:26.740 background, I

00:47:27.260 guess, like,

00:47:27.880 where we

00:47:28.320 originated, but

00:47:29.620 there wasn't a

00:47:30.080 strong pull in

00:47:30.940 any direction.

00:47:31.660 Do you need a

00:47:32.520 strong pull in

00:47:33.300 any direction, or

00:47:33.920 can you just

00:47:34.260 figure it out

00:47:34.700 yourself?

00:47:36.180 Well, you

00:47:37.000 don't need to

00:47:37.660 solve a problem

00:47:38.340 you don't have.

00:47:39.720 Yeah.

00:47:40.200 Right, and so, as

00:47:42.080 I said to the

00:47:43.340 questioner, if his

00:47:44.440 children are

00:47:45.040 thriving, just

00:47:46.660 leave it be.

00:47:47.780 Like, you're

00:47:48.720 doing whatever

00:47:49.560 needs to be done

00:47:50.500 right for the

00:47:51.360 moment.

00:47:52.260 If it becomes an

00:47:53.560 issue as they

00:47:54.520 mature, and that's

00:47:55.940 something that

00:47:56.540 becomes an area of

00:47:58.720 concern for them,

00:48:00.100 well, then you

00:48:01.200 cross that bridge

00:48:02.640 when you come to

00:48:03.340 it.

00:48:03.480 what I tried to

00:48:04.940 lay out was

00:48:05.560 the sources that

00:48:06.640 would be

00:48:06.980 particularly useful

00:48:08.000 in that

00:48:08.460 endeavor.

00:48:09.440 In more popular

00:48:10.520 culture, people

00:48:11.320 have found their

00:48:11.940 path to this

00:48:12.880 kind of

00:48:13.220 integration,

00:48:14.520 primarily through

00:48:15.260 the work of

00:48:15.920 Joseph Campbell,

00:48:17.120 right, and his

00:48:17.760 work on the

00:48:18.740 hero myth, because

00:48:19.660 one of the things

00:48:20.760 that seems to

00:48:21.580 unite cultures at

00:48:23.520 a very deep

00:48:24.140 level is that

00:48:25.300 the traditions,

00:48:28.000 the traditional

00:48:28.640 narratives of

00:48:29.800 diverse human

00:48:31.080 cultures have

00:48:32.300 a structure

00:48:33.780 that approximates

00:48:37.580 the journey of

00:48:39.220 the hero that

00:48:39.920 Campbell was so

00:48:40.840 good at

00:48:41.180 popularizing.

00:48:42.260 Now, the

00:48:42.560 postmodern types

00:48:43.540 deny that, but

00:48:44.800 they're a pack of 1.00

00:48:47.420 corrupt and 1.00

00:48:48.180 self-serving 1.00

00:48:48.800 nihilists.

00:48:49.800 So, and that

00:48:50.900 is one way, by

00:48:51.980 the way, that is

00:48:52.540 one way of solving

00:48:53.700 the problem, is

00:48:54.820 that if you're

00:48:55.560 faced with the

00:48:56.320 conundrum of

00:48:57.080 multiple competing

00:48:58.220 moral narratives,

00:48:59.020 you can just

00:49:00.320 fractionate and

00:49:01.220 pick whichever

00:49:01.740 one's convenient

00:49:02.460 for you at the

00:49:03.340 moment.

00:49:03.800 That is not a

00:49:04.900 good solution, but

00:49:06.160 that's certainly

00:49:07.460 the solution that

00:49:08.480 the academics of

00:49:10.780 the world in

00:49:11.800 the last 50

00:49:12.740 years have

00:49:13.300 decided that they

00:49:14.120 were going to

00:49:14.620 adopt.

00:49:15.480 That's why we

00:49:16.140 have a culture

00:49:16.700 war, one of the

00:49:17.700 reasons we have a

00:49:18.340 culture war.

00:49:19.140 So don't do

00:49:20.320 that.

00:49:20.680 Well, the

00:49:20.960 defining

00:49:21.340 characteristic of

00:49:22.320 postmodernism,

00:49:23.180 this is from

00:49:23.820 Lyotard, who

00:49:24.900 was a, Jean

00:49:26.220 Francois Lyotard,

00:49:27.360 who was a

00:49:28.300 founder of

00:49:28.900 postmodernism,

00:49:29.780 is he said

00:49:30.880 postmodernism is

00:49:32.260 skepticism towards

00:49:34.800 metanarratives.

00:49:36.340 And what he

00:49:36.700 meant, this is a

00:49:37.420 reflection of the

00:49:38.220 Nietzschean death

00:49:38.920 of God, what he

00:49:39.980 meant was, well,

00:49:40.800 there is no

00:49:41.820 paramount uniting

00:49:44.240 narrative.

00:49:44.780 There's just a

00:49:45.300 bunch of

00:49:45.620 fractionated

00:49:46.260 narratives that

00:49:47.160 people can,

00:49:47.960 micro-narratives

00:49:48.780 that people can

00:49:49.420 inhabit.

00:49:50.160 It's like, okay,

00:49:51.160 fair enough, but

00:49:51.760 what do you do if

00:49:52.760 the micro-narratives

00:49:53.640 compete?

00:49:55.160 Which they do,

00:49:56.140 which they clearly

00:49:56.800 do.

00:49:57.080 It's like, well,

00:49:58.380 you get confused

00:49:59.120 and you get

00:49:59.560 anxious and you

00:50:00.200 get aimless, and

00:50:01.380 then you get

00:50:01.900 power mad, and

00:50:02.840 then you go to

00:50:03.480 war.

00:50:04.200 You get rioters in

00:50:04.940 California.

00:50:05.620 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:50:06.380 Thanks for joining

00:50:07.180 us.

00:50:07.580 We hope you

00:50:08.140 enjoyed, and we'll

00:50:09.020 be back to answer

00:50:09.780 many more questions

00:50:10.780 in the future.

00:50:12.100 Thanks a lot, Mick.

00:50:13.500 Thank you, Dad.

00:50:14.400 And to our

00:50:15.160 questioners, much

00:50:16.100 appreciated.

00:50:19.120 Do you have a

00:50:19.900 question you'd like

00:50:21.000 us to explore?

00:50:22.240 Share it with us at

00:50:23.340 the link in the

00:50:24.080 video's description,

00:50:24.860 and let's face

00:50:26.240 life's challenges

00:50:27.260 together.

00:50:27.820 Thank you.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - August 14, 2025

571. Master Relationships and Improve Your Dating Life ｜ Answer the Call

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