The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

00:00:00.000 You got bullied, right? You talked all the time.

00:00:01.720 Everybody gets bullied.

00:00:02.800 But some people are bullied more than others.

00:00:04.960 My son, Anthony, is overweight. His friends used to tease him and ridicule him.

00:00:10.260 Our eight-year-old son has been called fat by a few friends.

00:00:13.040 How can we as parents encourage a healthy lifestyle, knowing when or if to focus on weight?

00:00:18.780 The situation that you're both facing at the moment is not

00:00:22.080 optimal by any stretch of the imagination.

00:00:25.000 My husband and I are parents to two young adult ladies.

00:00:28.420 When we're asked for guidance about dating,

00:00:31.540 we feel like the generation gap right now is more like a generation chasm.

00:00:36.500 How can parents raise children to value debt in an age dominated by short-form content?

00:00:42.540 Well, there's an insanely difficult question.

00:00:45.580 During Answer the Call, I take questions from people just like you from around the world

00:00:49.680 about their problems, opportunities, challenges, or if they simply need advice.

00:00:54.280 My daughter, Michaela, guides the conversations as we hopefully help people navigate their lives.

00:01:00.220 All right, fire away.

00:01:11.880 Over the next hour, we're going to hit on two topics, bullying and technology,

00:01:16.560 which often go hand in hand.

00:01:18.220 So the first guy we have is John in Arizona.

00:01:22.200 Hey, John.

00:01:23.660 Good afternoon, Dr. Peterson.

00:01:26.120 I'm John.

00:01:27.040 I'm in Northern Arizona.

00:01:28.240 And thank you for having us today.

00:01:30.480 It's my pleasure.

00:01:31.700 I'm very interested to hear your question.

00:01:34.320 Yes, my son, Anthony, is overweight and he's approaching morbid obesity.

00:01:40.900 This all started when we lived in Utah.

00:01:44.000 As he gained more and more weight, his friends used to tease him and ridicule him.

00:01:48.560 It was pretty horrible.

00:01:49.740 He took the rejection very hard.

00:01:52.420 So my question is, how do you repair this kind of damage?

00:01:56.780 He's 21, approaching 22, stays in his room most of the time, lost in video games and that

00:02:04.980 kind of technology.

00:02:06.460 And it's kind of like living with a heroin addict.

00:02:08.820 I get as sick as he does trying to steer him and control him.

00:02:14.760 And I just feel lost as a parent and I don't know how to heal him.

00:02:19.640 I don't know how to heal me.

00:02:21.000 I don't know how to heal us.

00:02:23.940 Yeah.

00:02:24.800 Okay.

00:02:25.620 Well, the first thing I feel compelled to say is that, and this isn't exactly the psychological

00:02:32.480 issue, is that, you know, my family, my daughter in particular, Michaela, has battled with health

00:02:40.360 problems, very serious health problems her whole life.

00:02:43.440 And one of the things that we've discovered that's very strange and odd, but that has been

00:02:49.620 verified now by thousands of people is that a carnivore diet will strip weight off people

00:02:58.600 so fast that it's absolutely beyond comprehension.

00:03:01.940 And so I would feel remiss in my obligations if I didn't lay that out as a potential practical

00:03:14.300 solution.

00:03:15.140 And, you know, that's a long-term issue.

00:03:18.580 Um, I guess what I would say more on the forgetting about diet on the practical side, although there

00:03:27.760 are obviously health concerns as well as social concerns that are relevant here, I would say,

00:03:33.020 what is it that you, I would want to find out what you envision for your son and what he envisions.

00:03:42.780 Like we, we know that the situation that you're both facing at the moment is not optimal,

00:03:48.460 by any stretch of the imagination.

00:03:51.420 You guys need a joint plan that you agree on, on what would be better.

00:03:58.280 And I, I, like people, human beings by their nature are visionary creatures as we lay out

00:04:08.260 a structure that we wish to make real in the future.

00:04:13.460 And we move towards that.

00:04:15.100 Otherwise we're the puppets of our surrounding or the, um, victims of forces that are beyond

00:04:22.580 our control.

00:04:23.260 Vision is the alternative to manipulation and, and subjugation.

00:04:30.780 Um, vision is the alternative to slavery and tyranny.

00:04:34.080 Your son is not living a life that is sustainable and productive, no doubt by his own account and

00:04:44.680 certainly by yours as a, an interested and concerned parent.

00:04:49.620 It would be helpful to help him develop a plan for where he wants to be in five years.

00:05:00.100 And for you, for, for him to help you understand what would be best for him from you, you know,

00:05:09.940 cause I can imagine his attitude is something like, get off my back, dad, and leave me alone.

00:05:14.680 And, you know, fair enough.

00:05:17.060 He's got health problems.

00:05:18.740 He's got social problems.

00:05:20.340 He's isolated.

00:05:21.600 And you can understand that his attitude could well be, don't bug me.

00:05:27.420 However, things are not going in a good direction.

00:05:31.180 And so your conundrum is, well, you have to, what are you going to do?

00:05:36.260 Ignore it and let things deteriorate across time.

00:05:39.240 That's not helpful.

00:05:40.540 And so you guys are in a position where you need to develop a plan and it needs to be one

00:05:46.180 that you're both on board with.

00:05:47.740 And that's going to take some very difficult discussion to convince him.

00:05:52.580 I guess I would start with questions, you know, and because questions rather than statements

00:05:58.900 are a much more effective way to suggest and intervene.

00:06:04.580 But they have to be non-manipulative, you know, they have to be genuine questions.

00:06:09.040 So if your son came and saw me, I would say, like, first of all, well, how are you reacting

00:06:17.840 to your current circumstances?

00:06:20.820 And then you want to listen.

00:06:22.340 It's like, well, this is problematic and this is problematic, but it's like I'm defending

00:06:26.640 myself by hiding and I don't know what else to do about that.

00:06:29.980 You need to lay out the territory.

00:06:31.380 And then you have to ask, well, if this could be rectified, what would a rectification look

00:06:38.360 like?

00:06:39.480 You know, do you want friends?

00:06:41.300 Do you want an intimate relationship?

00:06:43.020 How are you going to pursue your future goals?

00:06:45.600 Do you have any future goals?

00:06:47.620 What do you see as a solution to this?

00:06:50.060 How, as a father, you could ask him as well, how do you want me to conduct myself when I see

00:06:56.440 that you're ensconced in a world of misery in a manner that's going to make the future

00:07:01.440 worse than the present?

00:07:02.800 If I love you, I can't ignore that, but I don't want to torture you to death and add to 0.62

00:07:07.880 your misery.

00:07:08.940 So what do you want from me? 0.99

00:07:11.180 Given your understanding as well, that I can't just stand by and watch you go to hell in 1.00

00:07:16.420 a handbasket. 1.00

00:07:17.960 And so.

00:07:19.120 Can I?

00:07:19.820 Yes, you can.

00:07:20.640 Please do.

00:07:21.300 This one. 0.99

00:07:23.220 That sucks. 0.99

00:07:24.520 Yeah. 0.98

00:07:24.820 So first of all, and I think a lot of chronically ill, I think every chronically ill person,

00:07:30.020 including people suffering with obesity, are blamed for their health problems.

00:07:34.380 That's like number one. 0.65

00:07:35.280 Not only are you sick. 0.97

00:07:36.680 Yeah. 0.99

00:07:37.060 But it's your fault.

00:07:38.080 But it's your fault.

00:07:38.340 And then they're left in this position where they don't know the solution.

00:07:43.260 And that's not, that's not fun at all.

00:07:46.540 Yeah.

00:07:46.660 So like what I would say, like my husband lost 300 pounds doing the carnivore diet.

00:07:53.680 It's not a joke.

00:07:54.540 It's not a fad diet.

00:07:55.740 It's an actual like ketogenic medical diet.

00:07:57.800 No, and he's a staggering good looking person now.

00:07:59.680 It's quite remarkable.

00:08:01.240 And it's not, you don't have to starve yourself.

00:08:03.160 I would probably, if I was them, trying to get on board with trying the diet as a family.

00:08:09.280 Yes, right.

00:08:10.080 Like, hey, we're on your side.

00:08:11.120 This isn't your fault.

00:08:12.220 Yeah.

00:08:12.340 American foods are hyper palatable.

00:08:14.480 Everybody eats carbs.

00:08:15.820 Some people have a harder time stopping eating them than other people.

00:08:19.720 And we don't even know why.

00:08:20.940 Right.

00:08:21.320 Absolutely.

00:08:21.680 First of all, it's too bad you were bullied.

00:08:24.460 Yeah.

00:08:24.880 And second of all, it's not your fault.

00:08:27.140 But third of all, you can do something about it.

00:08:29.600 Yeah.

00:08:30.200 And let's just all try it as a family for like a couple of months.

00:08:33.760 He's probably depressed.

00:08:35.440 Oh, undoubtedly.

00:08:35.920 He's probably not just, it's not the video games that are the problem.

00:08:39.560 I would say it's the physical ailments and probably depression and brain fog that are

00:08:45.000 drawing him towards video games.

00:08:46.380 Right.

00:08:46.560 That's a very important additional concern because the fact of his obesity is a reflection

00:08:52.320 of an inability to manage a high carbohydrate, high sugar diet.

00:08:56.600 Which a lot of people have.

00:08:57.660 Well, right.

00:08:58.200 And it's clearly the case that many forms of depression are inflammatory and are brought

00:09:04.800 about by exactly that kind of diet.

00:09:06.820 I like the family approach idea a lot.

00:09:09.320 You're like, we're on your team.

00:09:10.340 Let's try it.

00:09:11.080 I should also say, you know, it took me a long time to eradicate all quick judgment from

00:09:20.080 my observations of people that were obese because it's very easy to judge.

00:09:25.400 And I've become completely convinced that the best way of thinking about it is that it's

00:09:29.900 a situation-induced illness.

00:09:32.220 Oh, yeah.

00:09:32.620 It's like, we're wired genetically to gorge on high carbohydrate, high sugar foods because

00:09:40.280 in our ancestral environment, they were rare.

00:09:43.100 And so when you came across honey, you just ate all of it because maybe you're not going

00:09:47.520 to find any for the next five years.

00:09:49.720 They also set up scientists to manufacture foods so that people could stop eating them.

00:09:55.680 Right.

00:09:56.300 So they would be-

00:09:57.120 Well, so they're built like that.

00:09:58.400 So no wonder you can't stop eating them.

00:10:00.040 Yeah.

00:10:00.200 Um, and I don't think, you know, you need to go on a diet or you need to change the way

00:10:04.940 you eat.

00:10:05.560 It puts the blame on the person and it doesn't even give them a plan.

00:10:09.520 Well, and diets don't work because a diet is food restriction.

00:10:13.480 And the evidence is quite clear.

00:10:15.460 If you restrict and then stop restricting because you can't maintain that forever, you

00:10:21.960 gain back the weight you lost and more.

00:10:24.560 Oh, no, it's terrible.

00:10:25.480 Yeah, it's not good.

00:10:26.220 And the advantage to this carnivore diet approach or keto approach is that you can eat as much

00:10:30.980 as you want.

00:10:31.740 You don't, you can be satiated.

00:10:33.260 Yeah.

00:10:33.460 I also can't tell you, like I had a juvenile rheumatoid arthritis from the age of two and

00:10:40.000 I didn't have, I didn't have obesity issues.

00:10:43.260 I gained weight when I went away to college because then I started eating pizza and beer

00:10:48.480 and delicious, terrible foods.

00:10:52.000 And, uh, and it really impacted my mental health.

00:10:54.900 But I cannot explain how much this diet has changed my life.

00:11:01.100 Like I was on something like eight medications for psychological health and then immune suppressants,

00:11:08.400 antibiotics, sleeping medications.

00:11:10.900 So I could sleep painkillers for the arthritis.

00:11:12.600 Like I was a complete mess.

00:11:14.540 The other thing that's helpful too is like your kid isn't very old.

00:11:18.620 He's 21.

00:11:20.000 That's, I turned around my health when I was 23.

00:11:23.280 I needed to get older and smarter.

00:11:26.520 And I actually needed to get old enough to recognize that my health issues were going

00:11:30.120 to kill me. 0.80

00:11:30.860 And I don't think I reached that point. 0.97

00:11:32.800 And it was obvious.

00:11:33.700 I didn't reach that point until I was 23.

00:11:35.840 But I know a lot of younger people who've done the carnivore diet.

00:11:39.560 Like my husband started a keto diet when he was 17 and that's when he lost 300 pounds.

00:11:44.300 Like he did it on the keto diet.

00:11:45.960 But the carnivore diet is like, it's easier.

00:11:48.080 You don't get cravings.

00:11:49.000 It's hard to transition onto.

00:11:50.440 But once you're on it, you don't even want those other foods.

00:11:52.920 And I think he'll start dropping weight so fast that he'll be like, okay.

00:11:56.520 Wow.

00:11:57.080 Yeah.

00:11:57.360 Let's keep doing this.

00:11:58.700 Yeah.

00:11:59.340 Yeah.

00:11:59.720 Okay.

00:12:00.320 Next question.

00:12:01.280 Yeah.

00:12:01.420 That was a good one.

00:12:02.600 That's a hopeful one.

00:12:03.800 Yeah.

00:12:04.040 It's sad, but it's hopeful.

00:12:05.400 Yeah.

00:12:06.420 What's it called?

00:12:07.680 Peterson Academy.

00:12:08.820 Peterson Academy.

00:12:09.700 Peterson Academy.

00:12:10.580 It's called Peterson Academy.

00:12:11.860 Peterson Academy.

00:12:13.080 If you want an actual education.

00:12:14.840 With hand-selected professors from top universities around the world.

00:12:20.060 Bringing the best professors together.

00:12:21.620 Making sure they're not censored in any way.

00:12:23.380 Giving them the audience and the remuneration and appreciation they deserve.

00:12:25.960 And you were true to your word.

00:12:27.100 You gave me absolute intellectual autonomy.

00:12:29.320 I have had it through every course.

00:12:30.900 We figure we can offer people a high quality university level education for under $2,000.

00:12:36.520 Well, congratulations, Jordan.

00:12:37.780 It's honestly brilliant.

00:12:38.720 Can't wait to enroll myself.

00:12:39.960 I'll be doing that straight after this.

00:12:42.520 Fun, Joe.

00:12:43.640 Pretty bad.

00:12:43.980 Yeah.

00:12:44.160 Up next, we have Victoria in Louisiana.

00:12:53.100 Hello, Victoria.

00:12:54.480 Hi.

00:12:55.260 Thank you so much for taking my call.

00:12:57.280 So this is my question.

00:12:58.680 Our eight-year-old son is kind, loving, and socially observant.

00:13:02.820 He is also very sensitive, especially in regards to his appearance and his performance.

00:13:07.220 He is taller and heavier than his siblings and most peers and has been called fat by a few

00:13:12.860 friends.

00:13:13.840 How can we as parents encourage a healthy lifestyle, knowing when or if to focus on weight without

00:13:19.960 creating an eating disorder or hyperfixation on his outward appearance?

00:13:24.080 Well, I guess some of the discussion that we already had is relevant with regards to stabilization

00:13:31.380 of diet, is that moving your family's eating pattern to a lower carbohydrate load would be

00:13:39.940 useful.

00:13:40.800 And, you know, your comment with the last questioner was that this has to be a family affair.

00:13:45.100 And I believe that's the case because eating is a communal activity.

00:13:48.720 You don't want to isolate a kid.

00:13:50.060 And just cutting processed foods can make a big difference.

00:13:54.080 If you just focus on a lot of meat, fruit, and vegetables, try to get rid of the grains

00:13:59.520 and processed foods, that'll probably help him out.

00:14:02.260 And I wouldn't say, like, again, that it's his fault.

00:14:07.200 We're kind of set up in society right now to eat hyperpalatable foods.

00:14:11.080 And most people, if weight gain doesn't hit them young, it hits them eventually.

00:14:16.440 Nobody escapes it unless they have a low-carb diet.

00:14:18.700 Well, we also know that there are radical individual differences in the degree to which

00:14:23.920 people pack on weight.

00:14:25.200 So, for example, Pacific Islanders, island people have gone through periods of food deprivation,

00:14:33.840 their cultures, very radically in their evolutionary history.

00:14:37.820 And so island people tend to pack on weight like mad.

00:14:40.800 And so the Polynesians, for example, on a North American diet, they just balloon out no time flat. 0.99

00:14:46.220 And so there is wide individual variability in the proclivity to put on weight.

00:14:49.980 And it's very important.

00:14:51.480 I really do think it's crucial to stop making it a issue of lack of willpower or morality.

00:14:57.480 First of all, you can't fight your hunger.

00:15:00.100 Good luck with that.

00:15:01.420 Your hunger will win.

00:15:03.300 So if you're on a diet and you're not satiated, you're going to cheat.

00:15:06.520 Or when you stop the diet, you'll return to your old eating habits.

00:15:10.900 You have to change the way you eat.

00:15:13.240 And that's very difficult and it's very radical, but it's unbelievably useful.

00:15:18.420 And then I would also say he's sensitive about his appearance, more sensitive than normal.

00:15:26.200 That's the other issue.

00:15:27.320 Maybe he's conscientious.

00:15:28.920 It's possible.

00:15:29.660 That might be a good thing.

00:15:30.960 It might be.

00:15:31.620 It might be a good thing.

00:15:32.560 And it might be a consequence of some higher levels of negative emotion as well.

00:15:38.260 And so what would I do with someone who's more sensitive than...

00:15:45.200 He was eight.

00:15:46.020 Was that right?

00:15:47.220 Sorry.

00:15:47.440 He's eight.

00:15:47.960 He's eight.

00:15:48.540 Yeah.

00:15:50.020 I guess I would...

00:15:51.740 This is one way of inoculating people against typical bullying responses is to work out

00:16:00.140 a description of all the bullying tricks and phrases and to have the person develop a defense

00:16:08.480 for them, right?

00:16:10.480 So...

00:16:10.820 Something jokey.

00:16:11.380 Yeah.

00:16:11.680 Something jokey, but at least to expose yourself to it.

00:16:15.680 Like if someone calls you fat, for example... 0.96

00:16:18.520 At least I have a brain. 0.99

00:16:19.840 What...

00:16:20.160 Right, right.

00:16:20.880 What should your response be?

00:16:23.100 Your son needs help developing strategies for dealing with the most common bullying situations

00:16:29.660 and phrases.

00:16:30.660 And you'll have to get from him what people say that hurts his feelings.

00:16:36.080 And then you'll have to work with him to develop strategies of verbal response or attitude

00:16:41.800 that help him prevail in the face of that.

00:16:46.540 Now, what you don't want him to do is to get down on himself, to isolate, to be irritable, to cry or lash out, because that'll just amplify the bullying.

00:16:58.160 Like what bullies do?

00:16:59.140 Like, first of all, we should understand that every child gets bullied on the basis of their peculiarities.

00:17:11.600 If you don't have any obvious aberration in your appearance, well, the bullies will just make one up.

00:17:18.520 They'll give you a nickname that's derisive or they'll come up with something that's like a rhyme on your name.

00:17:26.440 Like they're going to find something.

00:17:27.720 And what they're looking for is an emotional reaction.

00:17:30.220 In the bully-bully-victim literature, you see that there are stable bullies and there are stable bully-victims.

00:17:38.580 And the stable bully-victim boys tend to respond emotionally when they're picked on.

00:17:45.460 If they can develop a defensive strategy, say, which and humor can be very useful in that regard.

00:17:52.560 Or just pretending you aren't bothered.

00:17:54.020 Yeah, well, better even than pretending is to practice not being bothered to the point where you're actually not bothered.

00:18:01.520 Because what the bully wants is a reaction.

00:18:04.660 And he'll go around poking at people until he finds someone that reacts.

00:18:09.380 And then that's the person that gets picked on.

00:18:11.660 So your son needs to be trained in resilience.

00:18:16.360 And, you know, one of the things you might even try with him is to make a list of the insults and the insults that have been used against him and the insults that he's afraid of.

00:18:30.000 And practice delivering them to him so that he can learn to be resilient in their presence.

00:18:38.500 Oof.

00:18:39.040 Yeah.

00:18:40.060 You can do that.

00:18:41.080 You can do that with his cooperation, though.

00:18:43.140 Yeah.

00:18:43.360 What are you going to do if someone calls you fat?

00:18:45.180 What should you do?

00:18:46.360 Do you want to get upset?

00:18:47.880 Like, how does that work for you if you get upset?

00:18:50.540 Does that help?

00:18:51.520 Well, they hurt my feelings.

00:18:52.880 It's like, well.

00:18:53.960 Pretend they don't is a good place to start.

00:18:55.800 Well, practice acting as if they don't.

00:18:59.720 So, see, because the pretending, there's an element of deception in there.

00:19:04.160 There can be an element of self-deception in that.

00:19:06.780 It does hurt, though, when you, like, it's hard to, I don't, didn't you, you got bullied, right?

00:19:11.080 You talked all the time.

00:19:11.700 Well, everybody gets bullied.

00:19:13.180 Everybody gets bullied.

00:19:14.500 But some people are bullied more than others.

00:19:16.660 Yes, they certainly are.

00:19:17.740 And they're not usually, they're usually the ones that show weakness, honestly.

00:19:21.480 They're the ones who respond emotionally.

00:19:24.440 Yeah.

00:19:24.780 And so, so practicing stoicism in the face of provocation is a useful strategy.

00:19:34.680 And you can help your child learn to do that.

00:19:37.920 Yeah.

00:19:38.440 You, when, when, this is a funny story.

00:19:41.720 Yeah. 0.77

00:19:43.160 Kindergarten, I think, you told us, go find the biggest kid in the class and punch him.

00:19:49.360 And he, he said this, weren't you in front of other parents?

00:19:52.780 Oh, yeah, they were shocked. 0.82

00:19:53.700 No, I said, I think, I think, you find the biggest, ugliest kid in the, in the classroom 0.98

00:19:58.140 and then hit him on the back of the head with a toy. 0.99

00:20:00.340 Oh, wow.

00:20:01.200 That's way more in depth and specific.

00:20:03.380 It was a joke, obviously.

00:20:04.740 We didn't do that.

00:20:05.500 Yeah, no, I know you didn't do that.

00:20:07.320 Yeah.

00:20:07.440 But in grade two, this girl came out of the bathroom. 0.93

00:20:10.120 I remember, I was standing against the wall, leaning against the wall and kicked me.

00:20:13.260 Yeah.

00:20:13.620 Just random grade two girl.

00:20:14.920 Yeah.

00:20:15.400 And I turned around and I kicked her back as hard as I could. 1.00

00:20:17.620 Yeah.

00:20:18.220 That was it.

00:20:18.820 Yeah.

00:20:19.120 That was the interaction.

00:20:19.820 And she was the bully, right? 0.96

00:20:21.220 It was like, kick, kick harder. 0.94

00:20:23.580 Yeah.

00:20:23.900 It was like, oh, okay.

00:20:24.940 Not going to kick you anymore.

00:20:25.880 Right, right, right. 0.99

00:20:26.400 Go kick somebody else. 1.00

00:20:27.060 Right.

00:20:27.260 Well, there is some real utility also in helping your children learn to defend themselves and

00:20:33.440 to discussing very carefully with them the conditions under which they are allowed to

00:20:40.060 or also morally required to defend themselves or sometimes to defend other people.

00:20:46.280 Yeah.

00:20:46.560 And so you need a philosophy of that.

00:20:48.400 If someone is picking on you, if someone hits you and you're a kid, well, what's the

00:20:54.880 right response?

00:20:55.700 Well, the people who are anti-violence, let's say, is you should go tell a teacher.

00:21:01.140 It's like, do you remember what it's like to be a kid?

00:21:03.680 Going to tell the teacher, that can be social suicide, right?

00:21:07.920 Because it indicates to the bullies in particular that you can't handle your own affairs and that

00:21:13.660 you'll rat them out.

00:21:15.580 That's not good.

00:21:16.640 Although, I do think pretending or actually just being unaffected by it, like, I don't

00:21:26.540 care what you say.

00:21:27.560 Yes.

00:21:28.020 Like, that'll deter a bully.

00:21:29.980 Yes, yes.

00:21:30.980 They're not getting...

00:21:31.420 Because they're not interested in bothering someone that's like... 0.66

00:21:33.120 So, Dan Olwius, who's a Scandinavian expert on bullying, and he reduced the incidence of

00:21:38.800 bullying in Scandinavia by about 50%.

00:21:41.100 So, he's quite...

00:21:42.540 And there's a book, which you can take a look at, everybody who's listening, called Bullying,

00:21:47.280 What We Know and What We Can Do About It.

00:21:49.320 Pretty blunt book.

00:21:50.920 Olwius did the best analysis of bullies.

00:21:53.700 He thought of them as prototypical fascists, which was why he was concerned with them.

00:21:57.280 And I think that that's correct.

00:21:59.620 Olwius' analysis of the bully dynamic is dead on.

00:22:03.540 And one of the things he also helped schools, parents, and children work through is the

00:22:08.380 conditions under which you are allowed to seek adult authority if you're a child.

00:22:14.600 So, his definition of bullying was that bullying was aggression utilized when there was a mismatch

00:22:22.940 in power.

00:22:24.060 So, if there's two kids of approximately equal physical size and stature, let's say, in development,

00:22:28.720 and they're having an altercation, that's not bullying.

00:22:31.480 Bullying is when there's three 10-year-olds against an 8-year-old, right?

00:22:35.740 There's clear imbalance of power.

00:22:38.140 And then, if you observe that as a child, you have the moral right to intervene on behalf

00:22:44.520 of the person who's being bullied with an adult, mostly because you're serving the cause

00:22:50.660 of justice. 0.88

00:22:51.680 And so, Olwius was one of these dim-witted, like, hyper-agreeable social worker-type interveners 0.85

00:22:59.160 who thinks, oh, violence is wrong. 0.55

00:23:01.280 It's like, that's actually not true.

00:23:03.420 Violence in defense of yourself or of your principles or of someone weaker is often admirable.

00:23:09.660 And your children have to learn how to, they have to learn how to think that through.

00:23:13.820 You know, and, you know, your response, for example, when you got kicked, what would you,

00:23:19.020 we say?

00:23:19.540 In the ideal, there'd be no violence.

00:23:21.720 It's like, well, that's not real helpful when your daughter's-

00:23:23.740 Durrell out of kicking me.

00:23:24.940 Right.

00:23:25.300 Well, that's-

00:23:25.840 He just randomly kicked me.

00:23:26.140 Well, of course, of course you weren't.

00:23:28.140 Of course you weren't.

00:23:29.240 Yeah.

00:23:29.460 And so, that stopped it.

00:23:31.820 And you and I, and Julian as well, like, I practiced teaching you how to punch so that

00:23:37.000 you could throw a punch.

00:23:38.020 And we discussed the times when that was necessary, right?

00:23:43.020 So, you remember that?

00:23:45.620 I do, indeed.

00:23:46.520 It hurt.

00:23:46.980 I had arthritis.

00:23:47.960 Yeah, right.

00:23:48.500 Everything hurt.

00:23:49.320 Yeah.

00:23:49.580 Childhood was very sad.

00:23:50.580 Every time I talk about it with my husband, he's like, it's like, bowling.

00:23:54.880 Yeah, I used to bowl.

00:23:55.860 My thumb used to get stuck in the bowling ball.

00:23:58.200 It's like, why is everything you say depressing?

00:24:00.520 Like, well, it's funny now.

00:24:01.940 You're actually a remarkably happy child.

00:24:04.580 So, yeah.

00:24:05.660 Well, good.

00:24:06.980 Yeah.

00:24:07.520 Partly thanks to you, I'm sure.

00:24:11.900 As a spouse, a parent, or a leader, people count on you.

00:24:14.780 But if you're constantly tired, unfocused, and just not feeling like yourself, how can you

00:24:19.060 show up the way they need you to?

00:24:20.860 That's where Merrick Health comes in.

00:24:22.500 Merrick is a premier health optimization platform that uses comprehensive lab work, not guesswork,

00:24:27.540 to uncover what's really going on in your body.

00:24:30.020 Hormones, thyroid inflammation, nutrient levels, the markers that matter.

00:24:33.700 Their expert clinical teams build a personalized, research-backed plan just for you, whether it's

00:24:38.140 lifestyle changes, supplements, or prescription treatments.

00:24:41.080 When you know what's going on inside, you can leave with clarity, show up with energy,

00:24:45.280 and stay sharp for your family, your team, and yourself.

00:24:47.920 Head over to merrickhealth.com and use code Peterson for 10% off to join their guided optimization

00:24:52.860 program with your personal medical team.

00:24:55.080 That's merrickhealth.com, code Peterson.

00:24:57.280 Stop guessing, start leading, and start with Merrick Health.

00:24:59.740 Next caller.

00:25:02.980 Next caller.

00:25:04.020 On the line now is Marilyn in Florida.

00:25:07.720 Hello, Marilyn. 0.99

00:25:09.020 Hello.

00:25:09.940 Thank you for taking my question.

00:25:11.320 My husband and I are parents to two young adult ladies, 18 and 24 years old, and when we're

00:25:21.540 asked for guidance about dating, we feel like the generation gap right now is more like a

00:25:28.940 generation chasm.

00:25:30.020 For example, social media, how the people connect today, different sexual norms.

00:25:39.620 There are situations that have been brought up that we never encountered when we were in the

00:25:45.620 dating life.

00:25:47.600 We're often hard-pressed to offer really good advice.

00:25:53.200 I was wondering if you would have any thoughts on that.

00:25:56.820 Well, there's an insanely difficult question.

00:26:01.960 Well, everything I say is going to get me in trouble on this regard.

00:26:08.620 So, yeah, yeah.

00:26:09.320 So, the first thing I would say is that alcohol is a dating danger that's always underestimated

00:26:21.340 in its magnitude.

00:26:22.180 It isn't unreasonable to point out that there would be zero date rape, essentially, if alcohol

00:26:32.940 wasn't involved.

00:26:34.580 And so, that's a good thing to know.

00:26:36.760 So, when you're, and then I would say as well, when you're talking to your daughters, that

00:26:43.400 their right and obligation to say no should be exemplified, should be encouraged and strengthened.

00:26:56.540 And here's why I believe this to be the case.

00:26:59.440 So, women cross-culturally are hypergamous. 1.00

00:27:05.920 It's a deep characteristic of femininity among human beings.

00:27:12.620 It's not the case for all of our primate relatives, by the way.

00:27:16.660 Women mate up, across and up hierarchies. 1.00

00:27:22.340 Cross-culturally, they like men that are about four years older.

00:27:25.240 And so, you might ask yourself, what's the female mating strategy, human female mating 1.00

00:27:30.100 strategy?

00:27:30.720 And the human female mating strategy is to watch men compete with one another and peel 1.00

00:27:37.640 from the top.

00:27:38.640 And it's a brilliant strategy because what women are essentially doing is thinking, well, 1.00

00:27:44.140 the best man will win in competitions with other men.

00:27:47.420 And she sits back and watches and picks the guy who emerges victorious.

00:27:53.220 And that's a great strategy.

00:27:55.340 And that's, and so men compete for status in large part to attract women. 0.56

00:28:02.060 The status that men have among men, the most viable marker of that status is their competence.

00:28:10.900 And men will grant other competent men's status.

00:28:14.020 And then women are fortunate because they can use that as a marker for finding a competent 1.00

00:28:18.760 man.

00:28:19.360 The question is, what confers status among women in the opinions of men?

00:28:27.400 And that's easy.

00:28:28.660 It's their ability to say no.

00:28:31.960 And so, no is a superpower for women. 1.00

00:28:35.120 And because the typical high status guy, for example, so a desirable guy who faces no, is

00:28:46.300 either going to depart because he's interested in exploitation, in which case good riddance,

00:28:51.700 or he's going to think, huh, what's up with her?

00:28:57.440 You know, I'm a high status guy and she says no.

00:29:00.560 Well, that indicates that she's, that's her indication of status.

00:29:05.840 Now, I should also point out, here's something to talk to your daughters about that's very

00:29:09.780 concrete.

00:29:10.880 So, imagine there are two mating strategies. 0.79

00:29:16.560 One is short term.

00:29:18.320 So, that's free love, sexual gratification.

00:29:21.340 Um, that's the whole kind of dark hippie ethos from the 1960s.

00:29:26.900 And then there's the more, there's the mating strategy that's more oriented towards long-term

00:29:32.000 committed relationships, which you might well define as marriage.

00:29:36.700 Okay.

00:29:37.300 So, now imagine that you do a personality assessment of the men who pursue those variables, those

00:29:44.620 variant strategies.

00:29:45.720 So, is the, who are the guys that are after short-term sexual gratification?

00:29:51.640 Well, we know who they are.

00:29:53.840 They're dark tetrad types.

00:29:55.980 They're Machiavellian, so they use their language to manipulate. 0.99

00:29:59.340 They're psychopathic. 1.00

00:30:00.740 They have a tilt towards psychopathy, so they're predatory parasites. 1.00

00:30:04.800 They're, um, narcissistic. 1.00

00:30:06.940 They're only concerned about themselves. 1.00

00:30:08.380 And, just to top it all off, they're sadistic. 0.93

00:30:12.640 And so, when, when women participate in that easy sexual revolution, let's say, that's short-term 1.00

00:30:21.260 pleasure focused, they throw themselves into the hands of the worst men.

00:30:27.940 And so, it's much better to play a long-term game.

00:30:31.240 Now, if your daughters are having a hard time finding someone who wants to play along, well,

00:30:36.980 then I would say, they're well advised to not be unhappy that men who are irritated because

00:30:47.480 they don't get what they want right now have left.

00:30:52.240 Because that is not a person you want to be around.

00:30:54.960 Yeah, for sure.

00:30:55.740 No, yeah, for sure.

00:30:57.380 For sure.

00:30:58.520 The, the, the, all of the, all of the evidence converges on this very, uh, solidly.

00:31:07.440 I have, like, just a loop in technology.

00:31:10.580 Yeah.

00:31:10.780 So, this is, I went through this kind of thing 10 years ago.

00:31:14.500 So, it's still kind of recent.

00:31:16.200 And the dating experience has changed since then, but not, not a ton.

00:31:22.360 I would say that, you've told me this before, and this was very helpful, figure out what

00:31:27.660 your kids want as a life plan.

00:31:31.180 Like, this is probably more relevant for your 24-year-old because your 18-year-old is 18.

00:31:35.980 But, does she want to get married? 0.99

00:31:37.880 Does she want to have kids young? 1.00

00:31:39.880 Does she want to be a stay-at-home mom? 0.99

00:31:41.720 Does she want to work at the same time? 0.99

00:31:43.480 Figure out those, those serious questions and make sure they know the answers to those questions.

00:31:48.940 Then, they can utilize technology.

00:31:51.160 So, what I found helpful is you can download a dating app.

00:31:54.900 So, back in my day, it was Tinder.

00:31:56.980 Now, there's hordes of them.

00:31:58.380 But, Tinder was, was pretty rough back then, too.

00:32:01.200 But, you can meet people online, generate a report to see if you get along.

00:32:06.340 Then, you can say, I want to go for a coffee date.

00:32:08.740 Yeah, yeah.

00:32:09.240 So, coffee date doesn't have the alcohol problem.

00:32:11.140 You can go for a half an hour coffee date.

00:32:13.440 You can tell right away, especially if you don't have alcohol to numb yourself, if you dislike

00:32:18.260 or like the person.

00:32:19.160 And then, you can get up and leave, which is totally fine.

00:32:21.780 But, if you like the person, you can pretty much have the conversation about what you

00:32:26.080 want in life right off the bat.

00:32:28.260 And, if that scares that person away, then it's good that they're gone anyway.

00:32:32.200 So, you might as well encourage them to go out and meet people.

00:32:35.980 You might have, they might have to go on like 20 of these coffee days to meet someone who

00:32:40.700 goes, hey, we want the same life, like, same things in life.

00:32:43.760 Yeah, yeah.

00:32:43.900 And then, you can take it from there.

00:32:45.860 That's very, okay.

00:32:46.760 There's a bunch of things about that that are very important.

00:32:49.260 So, talk to your daughters, precisely as you said, about what they want.

00:32:53.220 Yeah, you taught me that.

00:32:54.260 Yeah, yeah.

00:32:54.500 Make a list of what you want.

00:32:56.400 Precisely that.

00:32:57.280 You do that when you're shopping for a house.

00:32:59.640 Yeah.

00:33:00.100 What do you want?

00:33:01.380 Okay.

00:33:01.620 So, now you know, well, now you have a criteria by which to judge potential partners.

00:33:05.920 They either want that or they don't.

00:33:07.740 If they don't, well, maybe they have a better offer.

00:33:10.160 Probably not, but maybe they do.

00:33:12.060 And, if they don't, it's like, don't be upset that they leave.

00:33:15.640 You're thrilled that they leave because the last thing you want is the wrong person.

00:33:19.280 Okay.

00:33:19.500 So, that's the first thing.

00:33:21.000 Talk to your daughters so they have a plan that gives them a template for acceptance and 0.99

00:33:27.340 rejection.

00:33:28.940 Encourage them to reject, right?

00:33:31.100 Not arbitrarily and meanly, and maybe even to look beyond their immediate reaction at

00:33:38.940 things more fundamental like shared goals, right?

00:33:41.940 Because there are people you meet that you're not necessarily so attracted to immediately,

00:33:45.900 but you learn to like them.

00:33:47.620 And that's because they're of good character.

00:33:49.840 So, that shared vision of the future is extremely important.

00:33:52.780 Then, the next thing is slow, safe situations to mutually get to know each other.

00:34:01.700 And certainly, the initial coffee date in the daytime, somewhere public?

00:34:08.300 Yes, exactly.

00:34:09.400 And then, care with each step forward.

00:34:12.240 Here's another rule of thumb for women, I would say. 1.00

00:34:14.520 And I also think it's true for men, but it's more desperately necessary for women.

00:34:19.440 Don't do anything physically with anyone that you wouldn't have a conversation with them

00:34:26.220 about.

00:34:27.620 Right?

00:34:28.180 Because you might say, well, at what rate should we pursue intimacy?

00:34:31.780 Well, if you're pursuing physical intimacy before you can have a conversation about what

00:34:36.520 you're doing, you're probably putting the cart before the horse.

00:34:40.240 So, that's for sure.

00:34:42.880 You know why life feels so chaotic and meaningless for so many people?

00:34:45.920 It's because we refuse to confront the real vices within ourselves.

00:34:49.400 Pride, anger, lust, envy, greed.

00:34:52.120 These aren't just bad habits.

00:34:53.220 They're deep-rooted sins that create genuine suffering and inner chaos.

00:34:56.980 That's why this month's St. Michael the Archangel Challenge on Hallow matters.

00:35:00.500 It's a 40-day commitment to spiritual warfare, not comfortable self-improvement,

00:35:04.120 but real confrontation with what's darkest in yourself through daily prayer, fasting,

00:35:08.700 and sacrifice.

00:35:09.600 This isn't about surface-level behavior modification.

00:35:11.920 It's about going to war against disorder within you and society.

00:35:15.660 You'll walk alongside St. Francis of Assisi, one of the most radical figures in Christian

00:35:19.480 history, a man who chose poverty and embraced suffering because he understood that drawing

00:35:24.300 closer to God means detaching from everything that isn't him.

00:35:27.620 The challenge runs from August 13th to Michaelmas on September 29th, a feast day celebrating

00:35:32.420 victory of order over chaos.

00:35:34.460 If you want to confront what's darkest in yourself and emerge with something redemptive,

00:35:37.920 something sacred, then take up your cross, join the challenge, and walk the path.

00:35:41.660 It's not easy, but it's necessary, and you'll be stronger for it.

00:35:44.880 Get Hallow three months free at hallow.com slash Jordan.

00:35:49.940 On to the next.

00:35:51.920 Next, we have a more general question about AI, and we're joined by Robert in California.

00:35:57.300 So let me ask my question.

00:36:00.120 First of all, thank you for having me here.

00:36:02.420 My question is a quick two-parter.

00:36:04.100 The first part, they're both actually about LLMs, like chat GPT and stuff like that.

00:36:08.540 I was wondering, first of all, whether you use them yourself, and if so, what you make

00:36:12.560 of the experience, and if you don't, why you don't.

00:36:15.280 And second of all, I was wondering what you thought the social consequences of their widespread

00:36:19.680 adoption would be.

00:36:20.640 Do you think people are basically going to offload lots of their thinking to these devices,

00:36:24.700 or do you think there's going to be some kind of rebellion?

00:36:27.500 Okay, the first, let's answer the first part of that question.

00:36:31.280 I use LLMs all the time.

00:36:33.600 I use chat GPT, I use Grok, and I have a system that one of my compatriots built with me and

00:36:41.040 for me that's based on the King James Bible, and that also incorporates a bunch of the things

00:36:46.700 that I've written and lectured on that I can use as a conversational partner when I'm

00:36:51.540 trying to figure out what I think.

00:36:52.860 They are insanely helpful.

00:36:55.860 They're like having a research team at your fingertips.

00:37:00.780 You have to torture the Woker models, chat GPT and Grok to some degree, into telling the

00:37:07.480 truth by specifying your questions very carefully and laying down rather impolite restrictions.

00:37:14.500 But you probably have to do that with people when you're trying to get the truth out of them

00:37:18.000 too, rather than some just polite and agreeable response.

00:37:20.780 I think they're stunningly remarkable machines, and they've been ridiculously useful for me

00:37:27.600 while I'm writing.

00:37:28.820 So I use them all the time.

00:37:30.480 When I'm writing, I have like three LLMs open, and I'm just conferring with them all the time.

00:37:36.640 I ask them for advice on how I'm formulating paragraphs.

00:37:39.980 They're ridiculously useful.

00:37:41.800 Now, having said that, I have this program that I've worked on with my son called Essay,

00:37:48.960 and we're trying to use Essay to teach people to write.

00:37:52.140 And when you teach them to write, you're teaching them to think.

00:37:55.540 And when you're learning to write and think, you're learning how to move your way through

00:37:59.260 the world without falling into a pit.

00:38:01.040 And if you offload that all to an LLM, then you're just a hollow shell, and you have no

00:38:06.940 idea who you are, where you're going, or what you want.

00:38:09.720 And that's a huge danger.

00:38:11.720 I mean, I was just talking to my son the other day about his experiences communicating about

00:38:19.060 Essay in general.

00:38:20.560 And he talked about a situation that one of his friends was involved in where they were

00:38:24.080 taking a course where they were required to write essays and to give feedback to one another.

00:38:28.900 And everyone who was taking the course used ChatGPT to write the essays and to provide the

00:38:35.220 feedback.

00:38:36.200 And so all you really got from the course was bots communicating with one another.

00:38:40.780 And so people can use the LLMs to evade their responsibility and to lie and to deceive and

00:38:49.260 to look smarter than they are.

00:38:50.840 And that's just rife with catastrophe.

00:38:55.320 So I would also say that the LLMs, in my experience, have been very useful in precise

00:39:04.320 proportion to how carefully you specify the question and assess the answer.

00:39:09.040 And so they can also teach you to ask extremely careful and well-formulated questions and to

00:39:16.440 hone your capacity for critical thinking.

00:39:22.100 Look, it depends on your intent, right?

00:39:26.700 If your intent is to rely on technology to look smarter than you are and to gain a bunch of

00:39:33.620 undeserved rewards in the short term, it's going to be a complete bloody catastrophe.

00:39:38.380 If your aim is to sharpen your thinking, to learn, to interrogate, to question properly,

00:39:45.980 and to make the sharpest and most well-informed arguments you possibly can, then that's open

00:39:52.360 to you too.

00:39:52.940 And I don't think that's much different than most technologies.

00:39:55.880 It's like the more powerful the technology, the more you can use it for good and the more

00:40:01.360 you can use it for evil.

00:40:02.500 And one of the things I've noted for and tried to teach people for 20 years is, as our technological

00:40:12.140 prowess increases, the consequences of our morality or immortality or immorality expand.

00:40:22.140 And that's the curse and the benefit of technology.

00:40:25.680 Now, there's an additional issue that we should address too, which is the alignment problem.

00:40:31.000 How do we know that the LLMs are operating according to the proper moral principles when

00:40:39.920 they're formulating their answers?

00:40:41.840 We just assume they're not.

00:40:43.100 Well, part of that can be dealt with by extremely careful questioning and critical thought.

00:40:53.480 But this is also why we've been experimenting with our own large language models.

00:40:58.200 Because my guess is, is that we're going to have to train them on something like the

00:41:03.660 Western canon for them to be aligned properly.

00:41:06.920 Like, there's not much difference in training an LLM and educating a young person.

00:41:14.220 Like, if you train the LLM on broad consensus across every possible source of information,

00:41:22.880 you're going to tilt them towards a present focused view and something that looks quite

00:41:28.700 woke.

00:41:30.320 So, and that's exactly the same with young people.

00:41:33.180 So what do you do about that?

00:41:34.640 Well, a classic humanities education, a classic education in the deep works of the Western

00:41:42.200 tradition provides them with a defense against ideological possession.

00:41:48.520 Well, why would it be any different with the LLMs?

00:41:52.920 I want, and I've talked to people who develop LLMs, although we haven't made enough headway

00:41:58.480 on this front yet, to train systems on classic works and to make that the core of their ethos.

00:42:06.700 And so, you know, with any luck, we'll work that out over the next five or six years.

00:42:13.000 That's what we're trying to do with Peterson Academy.

00:42:15.540 Yes.

00:42:15.800 We've talked about this a lot is people are probably going to be split into two camps.

00:42:19.980 There's going to be the people that know how to utilize LLMs because it takes, it reduces

00:42:25.860 your work depending on what you do to like 10% or eliminates your job.

00:42:29.360 It's a crazy difference.

00:42:30.980 It is not Google.

00:42:32.280 Google, I thought Google was great.

00:42:33.780 Just being able to Google, I was like the internet, we all have access to the internet.

00:42:37.540 That's crazy.

00:42:38.140 You can research basically whatever you want.

00:42:40.380 And Grok, I use primarily Grok, just squishes three days of research into like 15 seconds.

00:42:50.440 It's crazy.

00:42:51.340 Yeah, it is.

00:42:51.800 So if people aren't using it, they need to start using it and learn how to use it because

00:42:55.340 you're going to be left behind.

00:42:56.720 That's what I think.

00:42:57.660 Yeah.

00:42:57.820 So you need to incorporate that.

00:42:59.100 But there was this funny, I'll send it to you after, but it was this video going around

00:43:03.820 Instagram and it's this guy and he's like on his chair, like a monkey going like, eat,

00:43:08.620 eat, eat, like typing things into Grok and then, or, or an LLM and it's spitting out a

00:43:14.060 really nicely worded email.

00:43:15.400 Right.

00:43:15.680 And then he sends that and then he gets a response and he's like all happy about it

00:43:19.360 and goes like, eat, eat, eat, and types it in.

00:43:21.500 Unfortunately, I feel like there's probably going to be a group of people that use it to

00:43:25.620 enhance themselves and a group of people that won't learn how to write or communicate that'll

00:43:34.260 just use it.

00:43:35.320 Yeah.

00:43:35.820 Which is, that's the dangerous thing.

00:43:37.520 Yeah.

00:43:37.600 Well, and your comments about Peterson Academy are relevant with regard to classical education.

00:43:44.120 If you're going to use an LLM intelligently, you better be well-informed and morally grounded

00:43:52.820 properly.

00:43:53.860 But, but of course that's the case because the more powerful tools you have at your disposal, 1.00

00:43:59.760 the more your stupidity will magnify itself in consequence of the misuse of those tools. 1.00

00:44:07.100 You know, and I've known this for years. 1.00

00:44:09.100 One of the reasons I got attracted to Carl Jung's thought was because in the aftermath

00:44:16.120 of World War II and our development of the hydrogen bomb, he pointed out that the true

00:44:23.020 danger that confronted humanity wasn't the bomb itself.

00:44:27.100 It was the ideological foolishness that would lead us to use it.

00:44:31.100 And that the development of the psyche, the development of wisdom was as, as, as your technological

00:44:40.820 power increases, the requirement for you to be wise increases proportionately.

00:44:46.840 Well, yeah, that's even more the case now.

00:44:49.700 And I think the LLMs have really, they've been another tremendous example of the necessity

00:44:56.140 of that moral grounding.

00:44:57.980 And that's a very, you find that moral grounding in consequence of being properly educated.

00:45:03.480 And that is what we're trying to do on Peterson Academy.

00:45:06.640 Last question?

00:45:07.780 Last question.

00:45:09.400 So up last, we have a recorded message from Diego in Paraguay.

00:45:15.260 Cool.

00:45:16.660 Hi, Dr. Peterson.

00:45:18.100 Thank you very much for this opportunity to ask a question that is very important for me.

00:45:22.940 So the most terrifying thing,

00:45:52.940 element of the algorithm, and you can really see this in the degeneration of YouTube, especially

00:45:58.020 over the last two years, is that the algorithm maximizes for grip of attention.

00:46:02.880 And fair enough, because why wouldn't you want to be given things that you want to attend

00:46:09.140 to?

00:46:09.920 But the problem comes as the maximization of grip of attention becomes shorter and shorter

00:46:16.020 duration, right?

00:46:17.520 Like, pathological addiction is actually the hijacking of attention by short-term considerations.

00:46:25.060 So the shorter term across which your attention span is being manipulated, the more pathological

00:46:32.460 the outcome.

00:46:33.440 And you can see a race to the bottom in the social media world.

00:46:37.720 And TikTok probably really kicked that off.

00:46:41.140 You know what I'm a fan of TikTok?

00:46:42.880 You know, like the swipe, swipe, swipe.

00:46:45.100 Right, right, right.

00:46:45.900 15 second bursts, right?

00:46:47.960 And so, okay.

00:46:49.340 So how do you fight against that?

00:46:50.700 Well, look, you fight against that the same way you fight against immaturity as you socialize

00:46:56.920 your children.

00:46:57.380 What you're actually doing when you socialize children is you expand the time frame over

00:47:04.300 which they calculate reward, right?

00:47:06.920 So they're able to maintain attentional focus for longer and longer spans of time while they're

00:47:15.560 doing effortful things that culminate in a delayed reward.

00:47:20.080 It's the definition of maturity.

00:47:22.300 So how do you practice that with them?

00:47:24.400 Well, you listen to them.

00:47:29.140 That's helpful.

00:47:30.600 That's why regular dinner times, meal times together are very useful without phones so

00:47:37.020 that people communicate.

00:47:38.720 And you can encourage your children to attend for long periods of time by listening to them

00:47:48.680 formulate their thoughts and engaging in conversation with them.

00:47:52.420 You can do the same thing by reading to them, right?

00:47:57.080 I mean, this is dependent on the individual child, but there are four-year-old kids who

00:48:05.300 can listen to a story for an hour and who can handle a pretty complex juvenile novel by the

00:48:15.920 time they're four.

00:48:16.780 Interact with your children in a manner that requires sustained attention for longer and

00:48:23.660 longer periods of time.

00:48:25.580 And so board games can do that too, especially more complex board games.

00:48:29.660 So you want to engage as a family in sophisticated enterprises that don't fragment attention down

00:48:37.920 to the smallest possible unit.

00:48:39.540 There's tech now too you can use.

00:48:43.180 So I found this machine.

00:48:46.440 There's some practical things too.

00:48:48.600 So I have a seven-year-old.

00:48:50.980 She has a phone already because she's split between two houses. 1.00

00:48:55.460 Otherwise, she wouldn't have a phone.

00:48:57.060 I would say delay the phone for sure.

00:48:59.800 I haven't given my kids screens before the age of three, like including movies and things

00:49:05.440 just because you can see a two-year-old glued to a screen and you're like, that cannot be

00:49:09.020 good for their brain.

00:49:09.860 So like no screens.

00:49:11.720 There's this player.

00:49:13.060 It's called a Yodo player.

00:49:14.660 And it's this little machine that little kids can operate by themselves.

00:49:18.140 And you get these cards that are either music or stories and you can stick the card in

00:49:21.820 the machine.

00:49:22.440 A little graphic shows up, but it's not a screen.

00:49:25.560 It's like some lights that move around a tiny bit.

00:49:29.100 It's not hyper-stimulating.

00:49:30.440 And then they can listen to stories and things.

00:49:32.620 So just as a practical tech piece, I really like the Yodo.

00:49:37.560 And then for hyper-stimulation too, we use kind of a Montessori approach.

00:49:44.640 It's just limited toys.

00:49:46.480 Don't overrun them with toys.

00:49:48.300 Just a couple and you can swap them out every couple of weeks so they get new toys every

00:49:52.820 couple of weeks.

00:49:53.360 But I think avoiding the hyper-stimulation when they're really little helps a lot.

00:49:58.460 And then delaying, like you just talked to Jonathan Haidt, right?

00:50:01.640 Delaying social media, delaying phones, delaying screens.

00:50:04.520 Yeah.

00:50:04.880 And Haidt has talked a lot about too, about the fact that many states, I think he said 13

00:50:10.260 states already, maybe it's more than that, have decided to make schools phone-free zones.

00:50:16.100 Good, yeah.

00:50:16.600 Brazil has done that.

00:50:17.960 And many more states are planning to do it.

00:50:20.680 All the way up to grade 12, just no phones.

00:50:23.600 That's my understanding.

00:50:25.140 No phones in schools.

00:50:26.640 That's good.

00:50:27.400 It seems like the right thing to do.

00:50:30.260 The evidence for its utility is not in yet.

00:50:33.580 But that constant fragmented attention, the fundamental problem is that the AI algorithms are going

00:50:44.280 to optimize for the grip of short-term attention.

00:50:46.600 And that's just, there's no difference between that and addiction.

00:50:49.980 That's just addiction by a different definition.

00:50:53.640 And so encourage your children to pursue processes, pursue activities that require the investment

00:51:03.880 of attention, and do that jointly.

00:51:07.300 So.

00:51:08.500 Yeah.

00:51:09.400 Okay.

00:51:09.620 Yep.

00:51:10.100 Well, thank you, Dad.

00:51:12.100 That was fun.

00:51:13.540 Thank you to everybody who asked questions.

00:51:15.440 Much appreciated.

00:51:16.400 And thanks, Mick.

00:51:17.600 Yep.

00:51:18.060 It was great.

00:51:19.060 Thank you guys so much for watching or listening today.

00:51:21.920 Hit the like and subscribe button so you can be sure to catch all the episodes if you enjoy

00:51:25.660 these answers to these questions.

00:51:28.760 It's us answering the call.

00:51:30.960 We'll have many more soon.

00:51:32.220 Thank you.

00:51:34.540 Do you have a question you'd like us to explore?

00:51:37.720 Share it with us at the link in the video's description.

00:51:40.760 And let's face life's challenges together.

00:51:43.320 Thank you.

Advice for Dealing with Bullies, Big Tech and Social Media ｜ Answer the Call Ep. 1

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript