The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - Biblical Series： Abraham A Father of Nations

00:00:00.000 Hey everyone, real quick before you skip, I want to talk to you about something serious and important.

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00:00:57.000 Welcome to Season 3, Episode 10 of the Jordan B. Peterson Podcast.

00:01:03.000 I'm Mikayla Peterson, Jordan's daughter.

00:01:05.000 I hope you enjoy this episode. It's called Abraham, A Father of Nations.

00:01:10.000 If you want to check out understandmyself.com and look at your personality, you should check it out if you haven't heard of it.

00:01:17.000 You can use code Mikayla, M-I-K-H-A-I-L-A.

00:01:21.000 Thank you, Dad, for naming me after Mikhail Gorbachev so that nobody can Google my name.

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00:02:06.000 I have a video documenting the experience on YouTube, actually, if you'd rather see that.

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00:03:29.000 Season 3, episode 10, Abraham, a father of nations, a Jordan B. Peterson lecture.

00:03:43.000 Hello, everyone. It's been a very strange day.

00:03:48.000 So I'm going to tell you about what happened, and then I'll start the lecture.

00:03:53.000 I got up this morning and started to put my day together, and then I tried to sign in to my Gmail account.

00:04:05.000 And it said that it had been disabled because I violated the terms of service with Gmail.

00:04:14.000 And I thought, well, I didn't violate any terms of service that I know of.

00:04:20.000 Now, I set up a new YouTube channel yesterday called Jordan B. Peterson Clips.

00:04:25.000 And so we made some technical changes, and so I thought maybe it had something to do with that.

00:04:30.000 And I had been shut out of Google one other time, years ago.

00:04:35.000 So, when you get shut out like that, there's a little form you can fill out.

00:04:41.000 And so I filled out the form, and I said that I had been shut out, and that I didn't know why.

00:04:48.000 And I sent it off.

00:04:50.000 And then I realized one of my staff members called me and said that she was locked out of the YouTube account.

00:04:58.000 And I thought, oh yeah, the YouTube account is hooked to the Gmail account.

00:05:02.000 So that meant that I couldn't get access to any of my YouTube videos.

00:05:05.000 They were still up and online, but I couldn't get access to them.

00:05:08.000 I couldn't post last week's biblical lecture, for example.

00:05:13.000 And so that was worrisome, and made me suspicious.

00:05:16.000 And then, about two hours later, something like that, I got an email from Google.

00:05:22.000 And they said that they had reviewed my request to be reinstated.

00:05:28.000 And that I had violated Google's terms of agreement, or terms of service.

00:05:33.000 And they weren't going to turn my account back on.

00:05:36.000 And I thought...

00:05:38.000 And they didn't say why.

00:05:40.000 They didn't say anything I got.

00:05:42.000 There was no warning whatsoever about any of this.

00:05:44.000 They didn't tell me why.

00:05:45.000 And they didn't say why in the email response.

00:05:47.000 And so I wrote them back, and I said...

00:05:50.000 Because they said I could.

00:05:52.000 I wrote them back, and I said...

00:05:54.000 This might not be a good idea.

00:05:57.000 Basically.

00:05:59.000 And you might want to think about it.

00:06:01.000 And then I tweeted what had happened, right?

00:06:04.000 I took screenshots, and I tweeted, and I contacted a whole bunch of journalists.

00:06:08.000 Because it turns out that I know a whole bunch of journalists.

00:06:11.000 And so...

00:06:13.000 And so then, what happened then was that...

00:06:17.000 I got a call from the Daily Caller in the United States.

00:06:22.000 I had done an interview with them last week, which isn't posted yet.

00:06:26.000 And they interviewed me, and within 20 minutes posted it online.

00:06:30.000 And so they have a fairly big audience.

00:06:32.000 And so that was good.

00:06:33.000 And then somebody phoned me from Ottawa, and I did a live radio show about that.

00:06:37.000 And that was good.

00:06:39.000 And then a number of other journalists contacted me, and I sent them the information.

00:06:43.000 But another one of my staff members, actually my son, emailed me.

00:06:47.000 And he said, look, you should hold off.

00:06:49.000 Because maybe there's still a mistake here.

00:06:51.000 And I thought, yeah, there might be.

00:06:53.000 It might be just a mistake.

00:06:54.000 But then why in the world did I email Google?

00:06:57.000 And they contacted me, and they said they would not reinstate it.

00:07:00.000 And they didn't provide me with any information.

00:07:02.000 So, I contacted the other journalists.

00:07:05.000 And I said, well, you never know.

00:07:07.000 Maybe this is just a mistake.

00:07:08.000 So, let's hold off.

00:07:09.000 And then, while I was, about half an hour later, while I was trying to get into my...

00:07:15.000 I used this AdWords account that's linked to Google.

00:07:18.000 I don't run ads on my videos, but I need the AdWords account,

00:07:21.000 because it helps me add some little gadgets to the videos that I wouldn't otherwise be able to.

00:07:26.000 And I was always playing with that.

00:07:28.000 The system came back online.

00:07:30.000 I thought, well, that's interesting.

00:07:33.000 And lots of people had emailed me and Twittered me, and some people within Google, and some people elsewhere.

00:07:39.000 And they were doing whatever they were going to do to help me get all this material back up and running.

00:07:43.000 And so, something worked.

00:07:45.000 My suspicions are that what worked was the publicity.

00:07:48.000 Now, so, but maybe not, you know.

00:07:50.000 And it's very weird being in this situation, because there has been a number of recent episodes,

00:07:57.000 where these larger companies, Facebook, Google, Patreon, not that it's a massive company,

00:08:03.000 but it's starting to become reasonably significant, have decided on rather arbitrary grounds to shut down their users.

00:08:11.000 And this is very ominous to me, partly because we've turned our communications over to very large systems,

00:08:19.000 or very large systems have emerged to mediate our communication, right?

00:08:22.000 I mean, there's lots of benefit to it, so you don't want to get too cynical about it.

00:08:26.000 But we're blind with regards to the policies that regulate the actions, the regulatory actions of these large organizations.

00:08:35.000 And that's really a bad thing.

00:08:36.000 And something else is even more ominous, really ominous, you know.

00:08:40.000 It's highly probable that we're going to build political algorithms into our artificial intelligence.

00:08:47.000 And this sort of thing will be regulated by machines that no one understands.

00:08:50.000 And that's a really bad idea, and that's a really likely possibility.

00:08:55.000 So anyways, I was all confused about this.

00:08:58.000 I thought, Jesus, maybe I flew off the handle, you know, because I was sort of...

00:09:02.000 It was stressful, man, you know, because I have like 150,000 emails in that account.

00:09:07.000 Like, that's a lot of emails, and it's all my correspondence for the last 10 years, you know.

00:09:12.000 So it's an archive as well as an ongoing email system.

00:09:16.000 I have a commercial email system that I just set up three weeks ago,

00:09:19.000 with like six different email addresses now to try to organize my correspondence.

00:09:23.000 So I wasn't completely unable to communicate.

00:09:25.000 But my calendar was gone, and that's a bloody disaster.

00:09:28.000 Because, like, I've got things scheduled out forever, and I don't remember what they are.

00:09:32.000 I can't even remember what I'm doing in a day, so much less in a month.

00:09:37.000 But I thought maybe I flew off the handle, and I was worried that I contacted the journalist too soon.

00:09:42.000 And, you know, but anyways, it all worked out.

00:09:45.000 So, then what happened?

00:09:47.000 Well, just as I was coming to this lecture, I stepped outside, and there was a little package outside.

00:09:53.000 Luckily, it wasn't a bomb.

00:09:55.000 There was a package outside, nice little package.

00:09:58.000 We looked, my wife and I looked inside it, and there was a couple of bottles of wine in there.

00:10:02.000 So that was nice, and there was a little note.

00:10:04.000 And so I'm going to read you the little note, because it's actually pretty interesting.

00:10:08.000 So, this person said that they had finally tackled the self-authoring suite, so they seemed to be happy about that.

00:10:16.000 But that's not so interesting, except peripherally.

00:10:19.000 A friend on Twitter has contact with Google engineers.

00:10:23.000 She said, quote,

00:10:25.000 I spoke with some friends inside Google who offered to help, and I did get contacted by quite a few people at Google

00:10:32.000 who said that they had been, you know, watching my lectures and so on, and were happy about what I was doing.

00:10:38.000 Anyways, I spoke with some friends inside Google who offered to help.

00:10:42.000 But they suggest he set up a backup plan.

00:10:45.000 The teams are feeling significant pressure from advocacy groups.

00:10:49.000 And, quote,

00:10:52.000 I have at least four Google engineers who offered to speak up on his behalf.

00:10:57.000 But they know the team dynamics.

00:10:59.000 And unfortunately, especially YouTube, is an SJW cesspool.

00:11:07.000 I hope this information is useful to you.

00:11:10.000 It's like, yeah, it's kind of useful, alright.

00:11:12.000 So that was, that was part of what happened today.

00:11:16.000 And so, anyways, I still don't really understand it, right?

00:11:22.000 Because I don't know why it got shut down.

00:11:24.000 And I don't know if anything I did got it turned back on.

00:11:27.000 And I don't know the reasons for it.

00:11:29.000 And that's also rather ominous.

00:11:31.000 It seems to me that, when I was thinking it through,

00:11:35.000 and was that, you know, I have a fairly, what would you call it, respectable YouTube following.

00:11:44.000 I don't know if you'd necessarily call it respectable.

00:11:46.000 It's fairly large, YouTube following.

00:11:48.000 And it seems to me that it would have been appropriate for Google,

00:11:54.000 if they were going to shut down my account, to tell me why, I would think.

00:12:00.000 And also maybe look me up, maybe, especially after I emailed them.

00:12:04.000 And then maybe not to have emailed me back and said,

00:12:07.000 no, we're not going to reinstate you, but we're not going to tell you any reasons.

00:12:11.000 They didn't say they wouldn't tell me any reasons.

00:12:13.000 They just didn't tell me any reasons.

00:12:15.000 And then it also seems very strange to me that it just all of a sudden went back on after two hours.

00:12:23.000 And so, well, so, I don't know what to make of that.

00:12:27.000 Maybe more information will come to light over the next few days.

00:12:32.000 I hope that I didn't jump the gun, but it's very, a very peculiar set of circumstances.

00:12:39.000 I thought it was kind of amusing, actually, that the video that they stopped me from posting today was the last biblical lecture.

00:12:47.000 You wouldn't necessarily think that that would be the sort of thing that people would want to stop from being posted.

00:12:51.000 But we're in very, very strange times.

00:12:55.000 So, that was my adventure for today.

00:12:59.000 And so, I didn't, you know, I hate speakers who apologize to the crowd before they talk to them.

00:13:05.000 Because, you know, if you're speaking to people and they put all this effort into coming,

00:13:11.000 then you shouldn't tell them what a sorry and useless creature you are before you talk to them.

00:13:16.000 You know, and ask for their forbearance and forgiveness.

00:13:19.000 It's like, it's a little, you're a little late for that.

00:13:22.000 But, I'm still going to do that a little bit today.

00:13:24.000 Because, you know, I wanted to spend all day preparing this lecture.

00:13:28.000 I mean, I've prepared it a lot beforehand.

00:13:30.000 But, that rattled me up a lot.

00:13:32.000 And so, I didn't prepare as much as I could have.

00:13:35.000 Anyways, we'll stumble forward and see how it goes.

00:13:39.000 I'm reasonably familiar with the stories now.

00:13:44.000 And so, onward and upward.

00:13:48.000 So, I'm going to reiterate this.

00:13:50.000 You know, I've learned something.

00:13:53.000 I have this idea that it would be a good idea for young people and older people.

00:13:59.000 Citizens of the West, let's say, to learn more about their culture.

00:14:04.000 And their civilization, right?

00:14:06.000 Because it's a great civilization.

00:14:08.000 And it's taken a lot of work to put together.

00:14:11.000 But, I don't think that we really know.

00:14:14.000 I mean, I know a fair bit about it.

00:14:15.000 Although, I wouldn't consider myself nearly as educated as a person should be.

00:14:19.000 But, I'm not too badly educated.

00:14:22.000 And, but I tell you.

00:14:24.000 Going through these biblical lectures, verse by verse.

00:14:28.000 Just makes me even more aware of how unbelievably ignorant I am.

00:14:32.000 You know, and partly for two reasons.

00:14:35.000 Like, one is because I've been using this biblehub.com place.

00:14:39.000 And, I think I told you last week.

00:14:41.000 But, I wanted to reiterate it because it's important.

00:14:43.000 It's so interesting, the way that they've set it up.

00:14:46.000 Because, you can go through the biblical stories, verse by verse.

00:14:50.000 And then, for each verse, there's a whole small font page of commentary from multiple sources.

00:14:56.000 And so, you know, not only is the bible hyperlinked in the way that I discussed in the first lecture.

00:15:02.000 With all the verses referring to, not all the other verses, but lots of them.

00:15:06.000 But, it's got its tendrils out into literature.

00:15:10.000 You know, direct commentaries on the text.

00:15:13.000 But also, all the literature that's been influenced by it.

00:15:16.000 So, it's an unbelievably central and core text.

00:15:20.000 And, it's so interesting to read a book where every sentence has been commented on.

00:15:26.000 Well, really in volumes.

00:15:28.000 And then, just to get a sense of that volume of material.

00:15:30.000 You know, how much power, brain power, there's been put into this.

00:15:34.000 And, to also understand how bloody ignorant.

00:15:38.000 Like, I'm so ignorant about this.

00:15:40.000 There's all this work.

00:15:42.000 And, it seems that we've left it to decay in the dust.

00:15:45.000 And, it's a big mistake, man.

00:15:46.000 It's a big mistake.

00:15:47.000 Because, the people who are writing these commentaries.

00:15:50.000 Like, you know, a lot of it's from the 14th and 15th and 16th century.

00:15:53.000 It's kind of archaic.

00:15:54.000 And, some of it's outdated.

00:15:56.000 And, some of it you wouldn't agree with.

00:15:58.000 But, if you read all the commentaries side by side.

00:16:00.000 You know, you get a pretty good blast of wisdom coming at you.

00:16:03.000 And, like, the thing about wisdom is it stops you from running face first into walls.

00:16:08.000 You know?

00:16:09.000 It's not just there to, so that you can talk to people at parties about what university you graduated from.

00:16:15.000 You know?

00:16:16.000 And, it's there because the information is unbelievably useful.

00:16:20.000 You know?

00:16:21.000 And, one of the things that I've realized that I want to return to tonight.

00:16:24.000 Because, I've been thinking a lot about this idea of the ark.

00:16:26.000 You know?

00:16:27.000 And, I think I mentioned to you last week that I'd figured out that there's this idea that Noah was perfect in his generations.

00:16:33.000 And, that meant that he had set his family in order.

00:16:35.000 It wasn't just him, but he had set his family in order.

00:16:37.000 And, because of that, when the catastrophe came, like it comes to everyone, he was able to withstand it.

00:16:44.000 Because, he had the support of the people who were near and dear to him.

00:16:47.000 And, that's really important when things come along to lay you low.

00:16:51.000 Like, if you're alone and the flood comes, it's like, man, goodbye to you.

00:16:56.000 If you've got 10 or 15 people supporting you in a tight network, you know?

00:17:00.000 And, your interrelationships with them are pristine and you can tell them the truth.

00:17:04.000 And, they can tell the truth back to you.

00:17:06.000 It's possible that you might be able to find that thin way that will preserve you when, you know, the terrible things come knocking at your door.

00:17:16.000 And, so, there's this, the idea of the ark is very, very concrete in Noah.

00:17:22.000 It's actually a structure that he inhabits.

00:17:25.000 You know, it's a concretized, almost like a child's story.

00:17:28.000 And, I'm not being cynical about that because there are some bloody brilliant children's stories.

00:17:33.000 But, you know, it's really concretized.

00:17:35.000 But, then Abraham comes along and instead of an ark, there's a covenant, right?

00:17:39.000 Now, it says in the story of Noah that Noah walked with God.

00:17:43.000 And, of course, Abraham, it isn't clear exactly that he's walking with God or before God, which we'll get into later.

00:17:49.000 But, you see, I see this as part of the increasing psychologization of the sacred ideas that were acted out by archaic people.

00:17:58.000 So, first of all, it's concretized in the form of a ship that actually sustains you when the floods come, right?

00:18:05.000 It's very concrete imagery, the sort of thing you might see in a movie.

00:18:09.000 But, then, with Abraham, it turns into a psychological covenant, in some sense.

00:18:13.000 It's like a contractual agreement.

00:18:15.000 Now, it's a contractual agreement between Abraham and God.

00:18:18.000 But, that doesn't really matter.

00:18:20.000 I mean, obviously, it matters.

00:18:22.000 But, it's only half of what's important about that.

00:18:28.000 The other half is that it's a contract.

00:18:30.000 And, you know, one of the things that you do with your ideal, let's say, is you establish a contract with it.

00:18:36.000 And, you also establish, like, a social contract with other people, right?

00:18:39.000 That's what keeps society organized.

00:18:41.000 And, so, there's this idea that emerges in the Abraham stories of a sacred contract, and that has the same function as the ark.

00:18:50.000 And, what it does, because what happens in Abraham, and we'll see more of this today, is that he, you know, God tells him to go forward into the world.

00:18:58.000 And, we talked about that last week.

00:18:59.000 And, he does that.

00:19:00.000 And, he encounters famine.

00:19:01.000 And, he encounters tyranny.

00:19:02.000 And, he encounters powerful people who want to take from him what is his.

00:19:06.000 I mean, God sends him out in the world, but it's not like he has an easy ride of it.

00:19:10.000 It isn't easy at all.

00:19:11.000 It's as hard as it can be.

00:19:13.000 But, there's this consistent emphasis in the text.

00:19:16.000 And, I think it's something really worth attending to.

00:19:18.000 That, if you maintain your contract, which, and that has to do with honesty, and trust, and truth, and all of those things.

00:19:25.000 If you maintain your contract, then you have a good possibility, the best possible possibility, of making your way through the catastrophe and the chaos.

00:19:34.000 And, I don't want to be naive about this.

00:19:37.000 You know, when I read Jung, and I started to understand the idea of the hero archetype.

00:19:41.000 You know, the idea that the human being is a force, a logos force, that can stand up against chaos, and catastrophe, and tragedy, and evil, and prevail.

00:19:50.000 I never did think that that meant that if you did stand up and tell the truth, that you would necessarily prevail, right?

00:19:57.000 It's not a magic trick.

00:19:59.000 It's your best bet.

00:20:00.000 That's the thing.

00:20:01.000 You don't have a better option.

00:20:03.000 And so, and that's what's...

00:20:06.000 That's what...

00:20:07.000 See, the idea is emerging in the Abrahamic text.

00:20:10.000 It's like, people are figuring this out.

00:20:11.000 That would be progressive revelation.

00:20:13.000 That's one way of thinking about it.

00:20:14.000 And you can think about that in religious terms, but you can also think about it as humanity consulting itself, right?

00:20:20.000 Each individual talking to themselves, which is what we do when we think.

00:20:24.000 And each individual communicating with every other individual, and gathering a body of wisdom that helps people orient themselves in the toughest conditions.

00:20:34.000 And it's an incremental process.

00:20:36.000 And I think that...

00:20:37.000 I really do believe that that's speaking purely secularly.

00:20:41.000 I do believe that that's what manifests itself in the biblical stories, right?

00:20:45.000 It's the dawning enlightenment of mankind, something like that.

00:20:49.000 As we start to understand the principles by which we have to live in order to orient ourselves properly in the world.

00:20:56.000 So...

00:20:57.000 And I also do believe...

00:20:59.000 And this is...

00:21:00.000 This is the thing that's the unspoken question.

00:21:02.000 It's like...

00:21:03.000 You don't...

00:21:04.000 You don't have any idea how rich and fulfilling your life could be, despite its tragedy and limitation.

00:21:13.000 If you stop doing the things that you know to be wrong.

00:21:16.000 It's a really grand experiment.

00:21:19.000 And, you know, one of the things that God tells Abraham constantly, as the story progresses.

00:21:24.000 Especially every time Abraham makes a sacrifice.

00:21:26.000 God says, walk with me and be perfect.

00:21:30.000 It's something like that.

00:21:31.000 And so, the injunction is...

00:21:33.000 Well, aim high.

00:21:35.000 Establish this relationship with the highest thing that you can conceive of.

00:21:39.000 Which, you might as well do that.

00:21:41.000 Because, well, what are you going to do?

00:21:42.000 Establish a relationship with the most mediocre thing you can conceive of?

00:21:46.000 Or, you're going to establish a relationship with the lowest thing you can conceive of?

00:21:49.000 People do that.

00:21:51.000 And I wouldn't recommend it.

00:21:52.000 It's a really bad thing.

00:21:54.000 And there's a lot of pain associated with that.

00:21:57.000 And maybe...

00:21:58.000 You know, there's pain that can expand into a world destroying force down that route.

00:22:03.000 And there's absolutely no doubt about that.

00:22:05.000 So, what is there something superstitious and foolish about attempting to establish a contractual relationship with the source of all being?

00:22:14.000 I mean, I just don't see that as an erroneous conception.

00:22:19.000 And, you know, it's not necessary, perhaps, to get lost in the details.

00:22:25.000 We can argue forever about what God might or might not be.

00:22:28.000 But we could at least say that the concept of God is an embodiment of humanity's highest ideal.

00:22:35.000 Right?

00:22:36.000 We could at least agree on that.

00:22:37.000 And then you might say, well, is that real?

00:22:39.000 And the first thing I would say about that is, ah, there's a lot of things about the world we don't understand.

00:22:45.000 And the second thing I would say is, it depends bloody well on what you mean by real.

00:22:50.000 That's for sure.

00:22:51.000 And that turns out to be a very complicated question.

00:22:54.000 So, okay, so we left Abraham.

00:22:58.000 Remember, at the end, last time, he had just gone off to fight a bunch of kings and get his nephew back,

00:23:04.000 which seemed to be a pretty courageous act.

00:23:06.000 And so that brought a story to an end.

00:23:08.000 And it's interesting.

00:23:09.000 I think what happens in the narrative is that there's a story.

00:23:13.000 So Abraham is somewhere, and he goes somewhere else.

00:23:15.000 Right? That's a story.

00:23:16.000 And he has adventures along the way.

00:23:18.000 And those adventures are usually the typical kind of adventure, which is a rift in the structure of the story, an exposure to a kind of chaos and novelty, and then a reconstitution of the mode of being.

00:23:31.000 So that's a classic story, right?

00:23:33.000 You are somewhere.

00:23:34.000 You're a certain way.

00:23:35.000 You're moving forward.

00:23:36.000 Something happens that you don't expect.

00:23:37.000 It blows you into pieces.

00:23:38.000 It introduces chaos, right?

00:23:40.000 You face the dragon.

00:23:42.000 You get the gold, or maybe the bloody thing eats you, and the story is over.

00:23:45.000 And then you get to where you're going.

00:23:47.000 But then the question is, well, what happens when you get to where you're going?

00:23:50.000 And that's a really important issue.

00:23:52.000 Because one of the things that happens to people all the time in their life is that they get to where they're going.

00:23:59.000 And then they don't know what to do, right?

00:24:01.000 So, for example, you graduate from university.

00:24:03.000 It's like, okay, story over.

00:24:06.000 Who are you now?

00:24:08.000 Who are you the next day?

00:24:10.000 And so what happens is when you succeed, then there's a success crisis.

00:24:15.000 And the success crisis is, well, I've run this story to its end.

00:24:19.000 Now what?

00:24:21.000 And that's exactly what happens in the Abrahamic stories.

00:24:24.000 And they're punctuated by a period of contemplation and sacrifice.

00:24:28.000 So every time an Abrahamic story comes to its end, then Abraham makes another sacrifice and communes with God.

00:24:36.000 And then he figures out what to do next.

00:24:38.000 And that seems right.

00:24:40.000 It seems psychologically right.

00:24:42.000 Because what you should do when your story comes to an end.

00:24:45.000 When you've achieved what it is that you want to achieve.

00:24:47.000 Or perhaps when you're in terribly dire straits.

00:24:49.000 But we won't talk about that at the moment.

00:24:51.000 When you've achieved what you need to achieve.

00:24:53.000 Then the next question is, okay, well, now I'm that person or I have that character.

00:24:58.000 What do I need to do next?

00:25:01.000 And some of that is always, well, what do I need to give up now?

00:25:03.000 What do I need to let go of so I can move to the next plateau, right?

00:25:07.000 Assuming that your life is a, hopefully, a sequence of upward moving, what would you call them?

00:25:13.000 It's like Sisyphus, except you're actually, each time you climb up the mountain, you get a little higher on the mountain.

00:25:18.000 It's something like that.

00:25:19.000 So it's Sisyphus with an optimistic bent.

00:25:22.000 And maybe if you push the rock up the mountain properly and let it roll down, then, and if you do that right, then it's okay.

00:25:29.000 Every time you roll it back up, it's better in some sense.

00:25:33.000 I don't think that's unrealistic either.

00:25:35.000 And so, Abraham goes and rescues his nephew from these tyrannical kings.

00:25:42.000 That's very brave and he doesn't take any reward for it.

00:25:45.000 Because as far as he's concerned, it's just a manifestation of the right thing.

00:25:48.000 And then, he has another vision.

00:25:52.000 After these things, that's the battle, the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying,

00:25:56.000 Fear not, Abram, I am thy shield and thy exceeding great reward.

00:26:00.000 And Abram said, Lord God, what will thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Elysiaire of Damascus?

00:26:07.000 And Abram said, Behold to me thou hast given no seed, and lo, no one born in my house is mine heir.

00:26:14.000 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, This shall not be thine heir, but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

00:26:23.000 And he brought him forth abroad, and he said, Now look to heaven, and tell the stars, if you're able to number them.

00:26:30.000 And he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

00:26:33.000 And Abram believed in the Lord, and he counted it to him for righteousness.

00:26:36.000 And he said unto him, I am the Lord that brought thee out of Ur, the Chaldees, to give this land to you to inherit it.

00:26:43.000 And he said, Lord God, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?

00:26:46.000 And then he does this sacrifice.

00:26:48.000 Take me a heifer of three years old, and a she-goat, and a ram, and a turtle dove, and a young pigeon.

00:26:55.000 And then God comes down and, well, Abraham goes into a trance.

00:26:59.000 That's what it appears to be in the story.

00:27:01.000 And has a great terror, and then God appears to him.

00:27:05.000 And I'll just review this commentary again.

00:27:10.000 This is from Joseph Benson.

00:27:12.000 And when the sun was going down, that's about the time when you wash up for the evening.

00:27:15.000 And he's praying and waiting towards evening.

00:27:19.000 A deep sleep fell upon Abraham.

00:27:21.000 Not a common sleep through weariness or carelessness, but a divine ecstasy.

00:27:24.000 That being wholly taken off from things sensible, he might be wholly taken up with the contemplation of things spiritual.

00:27:30.000 Very strange, very, very strange series of interpretations.

00:27:35.000 Because it does seem that what happens to Abraham, that he falls into some sort of revelatory trance.

00:27:40.000 And so, as I've taken some pains to explain, we don't really understand such things.

00:27:47.000 And we can't rule out their existence, because there's too much evidence that they do, in fact, occur.

00:27:54.000 Perhaps it's a technology that we no longer possess.

00:27:57.000 That's one possibility.

00:27:58.000 Perhaps we no longer know how to access these sorts of states of consciousness.

00:28:01.000 It's certainly possible.

00:28:03.000 And lo, a horror of great darkness fell upon him.

00:28:07.000 This was designed to strike awe upon the spirit of Abraham, and to possess him with holy reverence.

00:28:12.000 Holy fear prepares the soul for holy joy.

00:28:15.000 God humbles first, and then lifts up.

00:28:18.000 Yeah, well, I think that's right, too.

00:28:20.000 Like, you know, one of the experiences I've had in my life, fairly commonly, in a variety of different ways.

00:28:26.000 This is especially true when I was paying a lot of attention to my dreams.

00:28:30.000 Which I did for about 15 years, I guess, something like that.

00:28:33.000 Now and then, I would feel like I'd learned some things, and had sort of consolidated them.

00:28:38.000 And then, before I went to sleep, I'd think, okay, I'm ready to learn something else.

00:28:44.000 It's like, and I didn't say that without trepidation.

00:28:47.000 And, because usually when you learn something, you know, it's not that pleasant.

00:28:51.000 Because you usually learn something about why you're wrong.

00:28:54.000 And the deeper the thing that you learn, the more you learn about why you're wrong.

00:28:58.000 And there's a death that's associated with that, because then you have to let that part of you that's wrong die.

00:29:03.000 And that's the sacrifice, right?

00:29:06.000 And so, you have to make a sacrifice.

00:29:08.000 You have to be willing to make a sacrifice before you're going to learn something.

00:29:12.000 And perhaps, what you'll learn is in proportion to your willingness to make a sacrifice.

00:29:20.000 And I really do believe that.

00:29:22.000 I do believe that as well, because I also think that if you commit to something,

00:29:29.000 that means that you don't do a bunch of other things, right?

00:29:33.000 So that's the sacrifice of all those other things.

00:29:35.000 You commit to it, and you set your sights on it.

00:29:37.000 If you really commit to it, and you get the sacrifice right, so to speak,

00:29:41.000 then the probability that that thing will be successful vastly increases.

00:29:45.000 And I think that that's also not a naive way of thinking, or a foolish way of thinking.

00:29:52.000 My experience has been that that's the case.

00:29:54.000 And so, back to the dream.

00:29:57.000 I mean, I do think that we learn in trepidation, and that most of the time,

00:30:01.000 if you have to be laid low before the new revelation can make itself manifest.

00:30:07.000 And I think that's also what happens to people often in psychedelic experiences,

00:30:11.000 when they have a bad trip, is they don't get through the bad part of it.

00:30:15.000 And maybe that's because there's so much mess in their lives.

00:30:18.000 Now, I'm speculating, but it's informed speculation.

00:30:21.000 There's so much mess in their lives, that the altered state of consciousness makes manifest,

00:30:25.000 that it's like a little trip through hell, but the mess is so complete and comprehensive,

00:30:31.000 and all-pervading, that there's no way they can get through it.

00:30:35.000 Now, if they could get through it, and started to sort those things out, then, you know,

00:30:39.000 there would be, perhaps, what would you call it?

00:30:41.000 A compensatory, positive revelation at the end.

00:30:45.000 But, the first thing is, if you want to learn something, is that you're going to encounter...

00:30:51.000 Well, you have to figure out what's wrong, before you can figure out what wisdom you need next to guide yourself.

00:30:58.000 And that's no laughing matter, right?

00:31:00.000 And, so I think that that's what this refers to.

00:31:05.000 I think that's the sort of psychological experience that that refers to.

00:31:09.000 I also think, we built this a little bit into this, into the future authoring program.

00:31:14.000 You know, I read this really cool paper once, reviewed by this guy named Jeffrey Gray.

00:31:20.000 Jeffrey Gray wrote a book called, The Neuropsychology of Anxiety Man.

00:31:23.000 And that is a great book.

00:31:24.000 It is impossible to read.

00:31:26.000 It took me really, it took me like six months to read it.

00:31:29.000 And, the reason for that is that, he reviewed about 3,000 papers.

00:31:34.000 And, they were all neurological papers, and heavy psychological, slash biological papers.

00:31:41.000 He actually read them all.

00:31:43.000 And he understood them, and he synthesized them.

00:31:45.000 And then he wrote this book about the synthesis.

00:31:48.000 And so, and he's very, very careful with this terminology.

00:31:51.000 And, so to read the book, you have to understand brain anatomy.

00:31:54.000 And you have to understand neuropharmacology.

00:31:57.000 And you have to understand animal behavior.

00:32:00.000 The whole literature on animal behavior.

00:32:02.000 And a whole whopping dose of human psychology and cybernetics.

00:32:07.000 It's like, it's a vicious book.

00:32:08.000 But, you really learn something when you read it, if you go through it bit by bit.

00:32:13.000 Like, it's had an overwhelming influence on psychology.

00:32:17.000 Even among people who haven't read it.

00:32:19.000 Which is most of the people who cite it, by the way.

00:32:21.000 And so, but he said, he outlined this real cool study.

00:32:25.000 Maybe it was a sequence of studies about how to motivate rats.

00:32:28.000 You know, and rats are a lot like us.

00:32:30.000 You know, in positive and negative ways.

00:32:33.000 And, you know, biochemically and psychopharmacologically.

00:32:39.000 They're very, very similar.

00:32:41.000 And they have very complex social environments.

00:32:43.000 And, you know, they have hierarchies.

00:32:45.000 And they play, and they laugh.

00:32:46.000 Jack Panksepp, Jack Panksepp found out that rats laugh.

00:32:49.000 If you tickle them, you can tickle them with, like, the end of a pencil eraser.

00:32:52.000 But you can't hear them laughing because they laugh ultrasonically like bats.

00:32:56.000 So you have to record it and then slow it down.

00:32:58.000 Then you can hear them giggling away when you tickle them.

00:33:00.000 So, so, which is...

00:33:02.000 You know, you think, oh, you're gonna spend $50,000 on a study demonstrating that rats laugh.

00:33:07.000 And you think, well, wait a second, wait a second, that's a major league study.

00:33:10.000 You know, because he's outlined a ludic circuit.

00:33:13.000 That's a play circuit.

00:33:14.000 And Jack Panksepp discovered the play circuit in mammals.

00:33:17.000 That's a bloody big deal, you know.

00:33:19.000 If you get that by, like, rubbing rats with a pencil eraser, well, good for you.

00:33:23.000 So, anyways.

00:33:25.000 So, Gray talked a lot about how to motivate a rat.

00:33:29.000 And you might have heard about BF Skinner.

00:33:32.000 You know, he used food pellets to motivate his rats.

00:33:34.000 But what you don't know about Skinner is that those rats were starved to three quarters of their normal body weight.

00:33:39.000 So, they would work for food, man.

00:33:43.000 So, Skinner's rats were kind of oversimplified.

00:33:46.000 But you can get rats to work for food.

00:33:48.000 They don't have to be that hungry.

00:33:49.000 You can get them to work for food.

00:33:50.000 And they'll do all sorts of things.

00:33:51.000 They'll press levers and they'll open doors and they'll solve problems.

00:33:57.000 And, you know, they'll do all sorts of things.

00:33:59.000 And one of the things you can do to kind of measure how much the rat is motivated is,

00:34:04.000 let's say you've run him through a maze and he knows there's some food at the end of the maze.

00:34:08.000 You can tie a little spring to his tail and see how hard he pulls when you open the door to the maze.

00:34:13.000 So, that's because that's how much work the rat is willing to do.

00:34:16.000 So, you can measure that.

00:34:18.000 Or you can see how fast he skitters down the maze and you can get an estimate about the rat's motivation.

00:34:23.000 And so, then you might say, well, how motivated is a hungry rat?

00:34:27.000 And the answer would be, depends on how hungry he is.

00:34:30.000 But there's another answer.

00:34:32.000 It also depends on what's chasing him when he's going after the food.

00:34:35.000 So, if you have a rat and you have food over here and you waft in some cat odour.

00:34:41.000 Rats hate cat odour and it's innate.

00:34:44.000 They never have to see or smell a cat to be absolutely petrified by cat odour.

00:34:49.000 And so, if you waft in some cat odour and then open the door, that rat will zoom to that food a lot faster than it will if it's just hungry.

00:34:56.000 So, a rat running away from something that it doesn't want towards something that it does want is a very motivated rat.

00:35:03.000 And so, one of the things we did with the Future Authoring Program that's germane to this idea of terror.

00:35:09.000 Because there's this idea in the Old Testament that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

00:35:13.000 And it's a pretty harsh idea.

00:35:15.000 But there's something really useful about it.

00:35:18.000 Because one of the things you see with people all the time is that maybe they're trying to stumble forward towards their ideal as poorly defined as it might be.

00:35:28.000 But then they're afraid, right?

00:35:29.000 They're afraid about what they might encounter.

00:35:31.000 And that stops them because fear does stop people.

00:35:34.000 It freezes you like a prey animal.

00:35:35.000 And so, people move ahead but then they get afraid and then they stop moving ahead.

00:35:39.000 And so, and that's not so good because negative emotion is a really powerful motivator.

00:35:44.000 So, we're more motivated by negative emotion than positive emotion, quantitatively speaking.

00:35:49.000 Quantitatively speaking, you can measure that.

00:35:52.000 And that's I think because we can only be so happy but we can really be suffering and dead, you know?

00:35:57.000 So, we have to pay more attention to the negative.

00:35:59.000 And that's bad because the negative can stop you.

00:36:01.000 And then, in my clinical practice, you know, I often talk to people who are trying to make a difficult life decision.

00:36:08.000 And they're weighing out the costs and the benefits of making the life decision, you know?

00:36:13.000 And one of the things I always talk to them about is, wait a second, that's an incomplete analysis.

00:36:18.000 You have to weigh out the benefits and the costs of doing this.

00:36:21.000 And you have to weigh out the costs and benefits of not doing that, not doing it.

00:36:26.000 And that's not the same as the zero that you assume that you're starting with, right?

00:36:30.000 Because to not make a decision also has a cost.

00:36:34.000 And sometimes the cost of not making a decision is far worse than the cost of making a decision, even if the decision is risky.

00:36:41.000 And so, one of the things you can derive from that, and this is very useful, I think, is that...

00:36:46.000 This is also, I think, why it's so useful to contemplate your mortality, so to speak, is you're screwed no matter what you do.

00:36:53.000 You know, and that actually frees you, is that you have path A that has catastrophes, and you have path B that has catastrophes,

00:37:01.000 and you don't get to have the no catastrophe path, but you get to pick which one.

00:37:05.000 And that's really something, because if you know that there's terrible risk associated with everything that you do and don't do,

00:37:12.000 then you can afford to take some risks, because you're not, you know...

00:37:15.000 And this is all within the ARC metaphor.

00:37:17.000 I'm still making the case that, despite the fact that your life is essentially catastrophic,

00:37:23.000 you can make a covenant with the highest ideal, and that will take you through it the best way possible.

00:37:29.000 I'm still making that case.

00:37:31.000 So...

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00:40:21.000 So then you think, okay, well, I'm trying to make this decision.

00:40:24.000 I'm going to go try to do something difficult.

00:40:25.000 And isn't that terrifying?

00:40:27.000 And then you think, yeah, but wait a minute.

00:40:29.000 What's really terrifying is not doing it.

00:40:32.000 And then you think about the cost of not doing it.

00:40:35.000 So in the future authoring program, we have people do this little meditative exercise, which is, okay, just think about your insufficiencies by your own definition, right?

00:40:44.000 The way that you don't do what you know you should do.

00:40:47.000 About the things that you do that you shouldn't do that you know you shouldn't do beyond a shadow of a doubt, right?

00:40:53.000 There's some things like that.

00:40:55.000 That's bad habits and poor aim and all of the resentment and hatred and aggression and unresolved conflicts and all those things that are dementing you and warping you.

00:41:04.000 And then think, okay, those things get the upper hand, man.

00:41:07.000 They get the upper hand and they take you the worst possible place you could go in the next three to five years.

00:41:12.000 What exactly does that look like?

00:41:14.000 And so you sketch all that out and you think, hey, I don't want to go there.

00:41:17.000 And so the next time that a temptation comes up, you think, well, it'd be a lot better for me if I didn't succumb to this temptation.

00:41:23.000 It's like, that's kind of weak, eh?

00:41:25.000 You'd look a little better if you didn't eat like a cheesecake a day or something like that.

00:41:29.000 You know, that's something.

00:41:31.000 But it's not the same as, I'm going to have diabetes and I'm going to lose my damn leg in five years if I don't get my eating under control.

00:41:39.000 That's motivating. And so then the temptation comes along and you think, oh, how about no?

00:41:46.000 Seriously, how about no? Not just because a higher good would be obtained if I avoided it, but because a terrible catastrophe would be averted if I didn't.

00:41:57.000 And so, well, so you want to get your fear behind you, right?

00:42:01.000 You want to get it behind you where it's pushing you forward instead of in front of you where it's stopping you.

00:42:05.000 And you get your fear behind you pushing you forward by actually thinking through the consequences of not putting your life together.

00:42:13.000 And the least of those is that you waste it and suffer, right?

00:42:16.000 Because you're going to suffer anyways, man.

00:42:18.000 So you waste it and suffer.

00:42:20.000 That's a bad deal.

00:42:21.000 Because maybe if you're going to suffer, you could at least do something noble and glorious and upright and powerful and honourable and admirable and helpful and difficult.

00:42:31.000 You know, that's just so much better.

00:42:33.000 And maybe that's good enough so that you think, hey, you know, little suffering, it's basically worth it.

00:42:39.000 At least it's a way forward, you know?

00:42:41.000 At least it's a way forward.

00:42:43.000 And he said unto Abram,

00:42:45.000 Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve those people.

00:42:53.000 And they'll afflict them for 400 years.

00:42:55.000 God, he's hedging his bets here a lot, right?

00:42:57.000 He says to Abram,

00:42:59.000 Well, go out, you know, into the world.

00:43:01.000 And then he confronts him with a famine, and he confronts him with a tyranny, and with powerful people he wants to take his wife.

00:43:06.000 And then he loses his nephew, who he has a fight with.

00:43:09.000 And then he has to go fight a war.

00:43:11.000 And now, you know, he's reconstituting this covenant.

00:43:14.000 And God says, yeah, you're going to have...

00:43:17.000 A nation is going to come from you.

00:43:19.000 But they're going to be slaves to tyrants for like 400 years.

00:43:23.000 It's like...

00:43:25.000 He's not a great salesman exactly, but...

00:43:28.000 But the thing about it is that...

00:43:30.000 The thing that I like about it is that it's realistic, you know?

00:43:33.000 And you've got to think too...

00:43:35.000 Because who knows why it is that the Bible exists, or why people wrote it.

00:43:40.000 But, you know, if they're going to sell you something,

00:43:43.000 I don't know if this is the way to do it.

00:43:45.000 You know, because unless you're a salesman who's sophisticated beyond belief,

00:43:50.000 because you'd think that if it was just a matter of controlling the masses, let's say,

00:43:53.000 which is one, say, Marxist interpretation of religion,

00:43:56.000 or providing people with a primitive defense against death anxiety,

00:44:01.000 which is essentially the Freudian interpretation,

00:44:03.000 that you'd kind of make the deals that God cut with Abraham a little more on the positive and polished side,

00:44:08.000 instead of making them a realistic offer constantly like they are.

00:44:12.000 And that's also...

00:44:14.000 That's part of the reason I think it is reasonable to treat the Bible as literature.

00:44:18.000 It's more than literature. It's something other than literature.

00:44:21.000 But you can treat it as literature, and I think the reason that you can treat it as literature is because

00:44:25.000 the characters are all complex, including the character of God himself.

00:44:29.000 It's complex and sophisticated. It's not one-sided.

00:44:32.000 And it's paradoxical and incomprehensible at times, but I think good literature is like that.

00:44:39.000 Because, you know, true art... Here's something about true art.

00:44:41.000 This is something I learned from Jung.

00:44:43.000 It's so smart. He was so smart.

00:44:46.000 So, imagine that you inhabit the land that you know, conceptually and practically.

00:44:51.000 And then imagine outside of that, there's that massive space of things that you don't know.

00:44:56.000 And even outside of that, there's the space of things that no one knows, right?

00:44:59.000 So, it's the known territory surrounded by the unknown.

00:45:02.000 That's the canonical archetypal landscape.

00:45:04.000 And the unknown manifests itself to you, and that's where new knowledge comes from.

00:45:09.000 But the question is, how is that knowledge generated?

00:45:11.000 And it doesn't just leap from completely unknown to completely articulated in one move.

00:45:17.000 That isn't how it happens. It has to pass through stages of analysis before it becomes articulable.

00:45:24.000 And the first stage of analysis, as far as I can tell, is that you act it out.

00:45:27.000 So, if something really surprises you, the first way that you react to it, your category is actually embodied.

00:45:33.000 You'd like this. That's your first category.

00:45:36.000 It's not conceptual at all. It's embodied.

00:45:39.000 And then maybe you start to, like, you're at home at night, and, you know, something startles you and you freeze,

00:45:44.000 and then it's dark, and then your imagination populates the darkness with whatever might be making the noise.

00:45:50.000 And that's the sequence. It's like embodied response, imaginative representation, exploration, articulation.

00:45:57.000 That's how information moves from the unknown to the known.

00:46:00.000 And artists are the people who stand on that imagistic frontier.

00:46:04.000 And they put themselves out into the unknown, and they take a piece of it, and they transform it into some mythological image.

00:46:13.000 And they don't know what they're doing exactly, because they're guided by their intuition.

00:46:16.000 If they're real artists, otherwise they're just propagandists.

00:46:19.000 They have to be contending with something that they don't understand.

00:46:22.000 And what they do is they make it more understandable.

00:46:25.000 You know, and then people gaze at those artworks, or they listen to the stories,

00:46:29.000 and then they start to become informed by them, but they don't know how or why.

00:46:33.000 I was at the Modern Art Museum, Museum of Art in New York.

00:46:37.000 I'm afraid I don't remember which one, unfortunately.

00:46:40.000 But, I was in this amazing room, you know, it had all these priceless paintings from the late Renaissance hanging in it.

00:46:50.000 You know, each painting worth, who knows, a billion dollars maybe.

00:46:53.000 They're priceless paintings.

00:46:54.000 So, the room was, it's a shrine, and it was full of people from all over the world, who were looking at these paintings.

00:47:01.000 You think, well, what the hell are these people doing, coming to this room, looking at these paintings?

00:47:04.000 Like, what are they up to?

00:47:05.000 One of them was a painting of the Assumption of Mary, right?

00:47:09.000 Brilliantly composed.

00:47:10.000 And there was all these people looking at it.

00:47:12.000 And I thought, what are they doing?

00:47:14.000 They don't know what that means.

00:47:15.000 Like, why are they looking at that painting?

00:47:16.000 Why is it in this room?

00:47:17.000 Why does it cost a billion dollars?

00:47:19.000 Why is that painting worth so much?

00:47:21.000 And the answer to that is, well, we don't really know.

00:47:23.000 Like, it happened.

00:47:25.000 They're sacred objects, in some sense, and we gaze at them in ignorance and wonder.

00:47:30.000 And the reason for that is that the unknown shines through them at us, in partially articulated form.

00:47:36.000 And so, well, that's the role of art.

00:47:41.000 And that's the role of artists.

00:47:43.000 You know?

00:47:44.000 And real artists, real artists are contending with the unknown, right?

00:47:51.000 And they're possessed by it.

00:47:52.000 They have a personality trait, openness, that makes them do that.

00:47:55.000 They can't even help it.

00:47:56.000 And I've had lots of creative people in my clinical practice.

00:47:59.000 And I can tell you, the worst thing for creative people is to not be creative, because they just die.

00:48:05.000 Because it's, like, maybe you're a tree with a few major branches, you know?

00:48:12.000 That's your personality.

00:48:14.000 So if you're extroverted, man, you can't be cut off from people, because you just wither.

00:48:17.000 And if you're agreeable, you have to be in an intimate relationship, or you die, you know?

00:48:22.000 And if you're conscientious, man, and you're unemployed, you're just gonna eat yourself up.

00:48:26.000 Because you have to have a duty, and you have to carry a load.

00:48:28.000 Because you just can't stand it otherwise.

00:48:30.000 And open people have to be creative.

00:48:32.000 They have to be, because otherwise they die.

00:48:34.000 They don't have any vitality.

00:48:36.000 And so, they're cursed with the necessity of putting a foot out into the unknown, and making sense of it.

00:48:42.000 And then, they're also cursed with the necessity of trying to make a living while they're doing that.

00:48:46.000 Which they can't, because you can't.

00:48:48.000 It's almost impossible to monetize creative action, as many of you who are creative will no doubt find out.

00:48:54.000 It's very, very frustrating.

00:48:56.000 It's not that creative action is without value, right?

00:48:59.000 Because the creative people are entrepreneurs, and the creative people revitalize cities.

00:49:03.000 And the creative people make things magnificent and beautiful.

00:49:06.000 You think about what's happened in Europe over the last thousand years, say two thousand years.

00:49:10.000 This amazing, unbelievable collaboration to make things so beautiful that they're jaw-dropping when you walk into them.

00:49:19.000 You think about the economic value of that, right?

00:49:22.000 I mean, I think it's either France or Spain that's the most visited country in the world.

00:49:26.000 It's one of those two.

00:49:27.000 I think there's more tourists in France than there are people most of the time.

00:49:30.000 And part of the reason for that is it's just so damn beautiful.

00:49:33.000 You just can't stand it.

00:49:34.000 And you think, what's the economic value of that?

00:49:37.000 It's absolutely incalculable.

00:49:39.000 And what's interesting, too, is that you build that beauty in,

00:49:43.000 and then the farther away you get from it in time, the more valuable it becomes, right?

00:49:48.000 Instead of decaying, it has exactly the opposite effect.

00:49:51.000 Its value magnifies.

00:49:53.000 And one of the things that I'm deeply ashamed of as a Canadian is that our sense of beauty is so underdeveloped.

00:49:59.000 We're so primitive.

00:50:01.000 It's not even primitive.

00:50:02.000 That's the wrong word.

00:50:03.000 Because, you know, I don't know what it is.

00:50:07.000 It's second-rate.

00:50:09.000 It's second-rate, at least.

00:50:11.000 It's terror, too, because people are afraid of beauty.

00:50:13.000 But the idea that art is...

00:50:15.000 The conservatives really have a problem with this in particular.

00:50:19.000 Because conservative people tend not to be that creative.

00:50:21.000 And it's a mystery, by temperament.

00:50:23.000 It's a mystery to me.

00:50:25.000 Because they should be concerned with economic development.

00:50:28.000 And beauty is so unbelievably crucial to economic development.

00:50:32.000 It just yells out at you, you know?

00:50:34.000 So...

00:50:35.000 Anyway, so that's what artists are doing.

00:50:36.000 And so one of the things I would say is,

00:50:38.000 buy a damn piece of art, you know?

00:50:40.000 Find one that really speaks to you.

00:50:42.000 And buy a piece of art, because you invite that into your life.

00:50:44.000 And it's a lookout if you do it.

00:50:47.000 If it's a real piece of art.

00:50:48.000 Because you'll also get, you know, a little introduction to the artist.

00:50:51.000 And then that'll seep into your life.

00:50:53.000 And that'll change things like mad.

00:50:55.000 But it's really, it's unbelievably worth it.

00:50:57.000 Because it opens your eyes to the domain of the transcendent.

00:51:01.000 That's the right way of thinking about it.

00:51:03.000 A real piece of art is a window into the transcendent.

00:51:06.000 That's what it is.

00:51:07.000 And you need that in your life, because you're finite and limited.

00:51:10.000 And bounded, right?

00:51:12.000 By your ignorance and your lack of knowing.

00:51:14.000 And unless you can make a connection to the transcendent,

00:51:17.000 then you don't have the strength to prevail.

00:51:19.000 And that's part of the covenant.

00:51:21.000 That's part of the covenant with God.

00:51:23.000 And you can see that.

00:51:24.000 Because you look at these magnificent cathedrals

00:51:26.000 that our civilization built over the centuries.

00:51:29.000 You know, some of those,

00:51:30.000 they're still building this Sangrita Familia in Barcelona, right?

00:51:36.000 And it's an amazing building.

00:51:38.000 I think it's going to take them like 300 years to build that.

00:51:41.000 You know, people in the Middle Ages, they'd start building a cathedral,

00:51:44.000 and they think, ah, we'll be done this in 300 years.

00:51:46.000 You know, imagine the vision that it took to invest in something like that.

00:51:50.000 We look at quarterly reports.

00:51:52.000 We can't think 300 years into the future to build something of that kind of remarkable,

00:51:58.000 remarkable, what?

00:52:00.000 Those cathedrals are so, they're perfect, they're trees first, right?

00:52:04.000 They're a forest, right?

00:52:05.000 The Gothic cathedrals, they're a forest.

00:52:06.000 And the sun is shining through the branches.

00:52:09.000 That's the stained glass.

00:52:10.000 And they're the perfect balance of light and structure.

00:52:13.000 Because they're representing something about the proper structure of being,

00:52:16.000 which is something like the proper balance between light and structure.

00:52:20.000 And they represent, like, the sacred tragedy of mankind.

00:52:25.000 That's why they're in the shape of a cross.

00:52:27.000 And they're open to the sky.

00:52:28.000 That's why they have a dome.

00:52:29.000 And they're full of gold so that it glitters, because that's like the city of God, you know?

00:52:34.000 And you can see that integral to our culture is the idea that beauty is one pathway towards God.

00:52:45.000 And if you can't find another pathway, then why don't you use beauty?

00:52:50.000 I'm sure most of you do that with music.

00:52:52.000 Because music is the one thing that modern people can't be cynical about.

00:52:55.000 Thank God for that.

00:52:56.000 I've been fascinated by music because of that.

00:52:59.000 It speaks meaning to people, right?

00:53:01.000 Even nihilistic punk rockers are so damn engaged with their music that they can hardly stand it.

00:53:06.000 And you can knock on them and say, look, you know, you're having a transcendent religious experience.

00:53:11.000 And they'll just tell you to fuck off.

00:53:13.000 Because that's what punk rockers have to do.

00:53:25.000 But that's still what's happening, you know?

00:53:29.000 I mean, it's still what's happening.

00:53:31.000 Okay, so I got into all that because I was talking about the Bible as literature, you know?

00:53:40.000 And trying to lay out...

00:53:43.000 Because we need in our culture to justify the arts.

00:53:48.000 And I don't want to do that by talking about high culture, talking about something abstract and evanescent.

00:53:54.000 That's the wrong way to go about it.

00:53:56.000 This is vital, you know?

00:53:58.000 Like, one of the things that's really interesting about the University of Toronto is that the one side of the campus where we are is beautiful, medieval cathedral.

00:54:07.000 And the other side is god-awful factory.

00:54:11.000 And, you know, and the thing is, the attitude towards knowledge has paralleled that architectural transformation.

00:54:19.000 You know, at one point, the humanities, let's say, were a sacred endeavor.

00:54:23.000 And so was the art of being educated in the university.

00:54:26.000 And that's turned into, like, mass factory.

00:54:29.000 And that's reflected in the architecture.

00:54:31.000 This isn't accidental.

00:54:32.000 None of this happens...

00:54:33.000 None of this happens by random chance, you know?

00:54:36.000 It's not like there's a conspiracy or anything, because there isn't.

00:54:39.000 But that doesn't mean that these things aren't tangled together.

00:54:42.000 And the loss of beauty in the universities is a catastrophe, because without that beauty, there's no call to higher being.

00:54:50.000 You know?

00:54:51.000 This is also why, you know, I've mentioned to people that they should clean up their rooms.

00:54:55.000 That's become quite the internet meme.

00:54:57.000 But I'm really serious about it, because it's really hard to do that.

00:55:00.000 And I've been cleaning up my room, by the way, for about four months now, because my life was thrown into such a catastrophe.

00:55:06.000 And also, we were renovating.

00:55:08.000 And so...

00:55:09.000 But it isn't just that you clean it up.

00:55:11.000 You also make it beautiful.

00:55:12.000 And it's really hard to make something beautiful.

00:55:15.000 And it's really worthwhile.

00:55:17.000 And what's really cool is if you learn to make something beautiful, even one thing,

00:55:20.000 if you can just make one thing in your life beautiful, then you've established a relationship with beauty.

00:55:25.000 And then you can start to expand that relationship with beauty out into the world.

00:55:30.000 Like, into other elements of your life.

00:55:32.000 And that is so worthwhile.

00:55:33.000 It's just incredibly, crazily worthwhile.

00:55:36.000 And that's an invitation to the divine.

00:55:39.000 You know?

00:55:40.000 You have to be daring to do that.

00:55:41.000 And people are terrified of it.

00:55:42.000 People are terrified of colour.

00:55:43.000 They paint their walls beige.

00:55:45.000 They're terrified of art.

00:55:46.000 They buy some mass-produced thing, because they don't want anybody laughing at them for their lack of taste.

00:55:51.000 And they would get laughed at, because they have no taste.

00:55:54.000 But you have to...

00:55:55.000 Well, it's right!

00:55:56.000 Because what do you know, right?

00:55:57.000 You have to develop it.

00:55:58.000 And so you're going to stumble along and make mistakes to begin with.

00:56:01.000 And you're going to show yourself.

00:56:03.000 Because if you buy...

00:56:04.000 Oh, I think this is pretty.

00:56:05.000 And you know, somebody comes over and goes,

00:56:06.000 What's up with you?

00:56:07.000 It's kind of hard on your self-esteem.

00:56:09.000 But you're stumbling towards the right...

00:56:13.000 You're stumbling towards the kingdom of God.

00:56:17.000 That's what you're stumbling towards when you try to make an aesthetic decision

00:56:20.000 and to put something in your life that's beautiful.

00:56:22.000 And it's unbelievably worthwhile to do that.

00:56:25.000 And you have to steer clear of the frauds and the con artists and all of that.

00:56:28.000 And art is full of that, of course.

00:56:30.000 Because it's difficult to distinguish between the real thing and the fraud.

00:56:34.000 But it's unbelievably worthwhile.

00:56:36.000 And so back to literature.

00:56:38.000 I'm telling you this partly because I've been thinking a lot about the humanities and the arts.

00:56:44.000 And practically speaking.

00:56:46.000 Because I know that artistic types are also entrepreneurial types.

00:56:49.000 They're the same personality types.

00:56:50.000 And so it's very much worthwhile to make an economic and practical case for this sort of thing.

00:56:56.000 You study literature and the humanities so that you can familiarize yourself with the wisdom of our civilization.

00:57:02.000 Man, you should do that because people have been working on this thing for a long time.

00:57:06.000 And it's rich beyond comparison.

00:57:08.000 So why wouldn't you do that?

00:57:10.000 You teach yourself to read.

00:57:12.000 And you teach yourself to speak.

00:57:14.000 And you teach yourself to think.

00:57:15.000 And you teach yourself to communicate.

00:57:17.000 And I can tell you.

00:57:18.000 If you can read and think and communicate.

00:57:22.000 You are absolutely 100% unstoppable.

00:57:26.000 And that's another thing that's so interesting about the humanities education that's at the core of the university.

00:57:31.000 It's like there's nothing more economically valuable than teaching people how to articulate themselves and communicate.

00:57:36.000 Because they can identify problems.

00:57:38.000 They can formulate solutions.

00:57:39.000 They can negotiate to consensus.

00:57:41.000 They can negotiate on their own behalf or on the behalf of others.

00:57:44.000 It's like there's absolutely no downside to it.

00:57:47.000 Except that there's responsibility that goes along with it.

00:57:50.000 But it doesn't matter because there's no escape from responsibility.

00:57:55.000 You can either take it voluntarily or you can take it involuntarily.

00:57:58.000 Those are your options.

00:57:59.000 But there aren't any other options.

00:58:00.000 And so we need to understand the role of art and literature.

00:58:04.000 And stop thinking about it as an option.

00:58:06.000 It's not an option.

00:58:07.000 It's not an option.

00:58:08.000 What is it said?

00:58:09.000 Man does not live by bread alone.

00:58:11.000 That's exactly right.

00:58:12.000 We live by beauty.

00:58:13.000 We live by literature.

00:58:14.000 We live by art.

00:58:15.000 And literally, not metaphorically.

00:58:18.000 We cannot live without it.

00:58:19.000 Because life is too dismal and tragic in the absence of the sublime.

00:58:25.000 And ourselves, we have to be sharp.

00:58:28.000 So that we can survive properly and orient the world properly.

00:58:31.000 And not destroy things, including ourselves.

00:58:34.000 And so, back to the Bible, which I do think is a reasonable...

00:58:39.000 It's reasonably construed as a piece of literature because it's deep.

00:58:43.000 And because the people who wrote it had at least one foot in the unknowable.

00:58:46.000 And they're trying to communicate what they experienced in the unknowable to make it known.

00:58:52.000 And that's partly what we're trying to do in this series.

00:58:55.000 And what you're trying to do while you're listening.

00:58:57.000 And all of that.

00:58:58.000 And so, good for that.

00:59:00.000 And also, that nation whom they shall serve, I will judge.

00:59:03.000 And afterward, they'll come out with great substance.

00:59:06.000 There'll be a period of tyranny.

00:59:07.000 You know, and there's a psychological truth to that, too.

00:59:10.000 One of the things I learned from reading Nietzsche.

00:59:12.000 Because you can learn a lot from reading Nietzsche.

00:59:14.000 That's for sure.

00:59:15.000 He talked about the Catholic Church.

00:59:17.000 You know, Nietzsche is often construed as a great critic of Christianity.

00:59:20.000 And he certainly was.

00:59:22.000 But he was no casual critic.

00:59:25.000 In fact, I think he was the sort of critic that you'd like to have as a friend.

00:59:28.000 Because he was the sort of critic that said.

00:59:30.000 Well, here's the great things you've done.

00:59:32.000 And that you could keep doing.

00:59:34.000 But here's a bunch of really neat things that you did.

00:59:36.000 That you really should stop doing.

00:59:38.000 And he talked about the Catholic Church.

00:59:40.000 And he said, what the Catholic Church had done.

00:59:43.000 To the European mind, in particular.

00:59:45.000 Was discipline it.

00:59:47.000 So that over a period of a thousand years.

00:59:50.000 A thousand years.

00:59:51.000 Thirteen hundred years.

00:59:52.000 Fourteen hundred years.

00:59:53.000 There was this rule.

00:59:54.000 That there was a conceptual structure.

00:59:56.000 Within which you had to interpret everything.

00:59:58.000 And what that did was.

00:59:59.000 Turn the educated European mind.

01:00:02.000 Into a systematizing cognitive entity.

01:00:05.000 And that once that systematizing cognitive entity.

01:00:08.000 Had been established.

01:00:09.000 Then it could free itself.

01:00:11.000 From those underlying disciplinary structures.

01:00:13.000 And go off and do such things as.

01:00:15.000 Produce the scientific revolution.

01:00:17.000 For example.

01:00:18.000 Which required incredible systematic thinking.

01:00:20.000 And so Nietzsche had this really interesting idea.

01:00:22.000 About freedom.

01:00:23.000 And he believed that.

01:00:25.000 Slavery was an intermediary.

01:00:27.000 Between the undeveloped individual.

01:00:29.000 And the free individual.

01:00:30.000 That you had to.

01:00:31.000 You had to submit yourself.

01:00:33.000 To some intense disciplinary process.

01:00:35.000 For some period of time in your life.

01:00:37.000 Before you could develop any true freedom.

01:00:39.000 And so you think.

01:00:40.000 Maybe you want to learn to play the piano.

01:00:42.000 It's like.

01:00:43.000 That's not going to be any fun.

01:00:44.000 For a really long period of time.

01:00:45.000 Right.

01:00:46.000 Because you're really bad at it.

01:00:47.000 And there's a million things.

01:00:48.000 You have to memorize.

01:00:49.000 And you have to stumble around.

01:00:50.000 Like a.

01:00:51.000 Well.

01:00:52.000 Like an amateur.

01:00:53.000 And the same thing happens.

01:00:54.000 When kids learn how to read.

01:00:55.000 And some of them never get past that point.

01:00:56.000 And they never get to the point.

01:00:57.000 Where they can enjoy reading.

01:00:58.000 But.

01:00:59.000 In order to put yourself together.

01:01:00.000 You have to put yourself in a vice.

01:01:02.000 And allow yourself to be constricted.

01:01:04.000 And mangled even.

01:01:05.000 By the.

01:01:06.000 The thing that enslaves you.

01:01:07.000 But the.

01:01:08.000 The goal should be.

01:01:09.000 That.

01:01:10.000 The consequence of submitting to the discipline.

01:01:12.000 That you become disciplined.

01:01:13.000 And then once you become disciplined.

01:01:15.000 You can emerge from the disciplinary structure.

01:01:17.000 As someone who's free.

01:01:18.000 And that's something that's very much worth thinking about as well.

01:01:21.000 So.

01:01:22.000 That's illustrated.

01:01:24.000 Conceptually.

01:01:25.000 In this.

01:01:26.000 In this.

01:01:27.000 Piece of literature.

01:01:29.000 Let's say.

01:01:30.000 Because what.

01:01:31.000 What.

01:01:32.000 The psychological meaning of what God tells Abraham.

01:01:35.000 Is that.

01:01:36.000 All people.

01:01:37.000 All people are subject.

01:01:39.000 And I mean.

01:01:40.000 Not equally.

01:01:41.000 Obviously.

01:01:42.000 All people are subject to.

01:01:43.000 The tyranny that precedes freedom.

01:01:44.000 And that.

01:01:45.000 That idea is.

01:01:46.000 Is.

01:01:47.000 Repeated over and over in the Old Testament.

01:01:49.000 And it comes out most particularly in the story of Moses.

01:01:51.000 Right.

01:01:52.000 Because of course.

01:01:53.000 That's the story of movement from tyranny.

01:01:54.000 Where do you go from a tyranny?

01:01:56.000 It's an absolute catastrophe.

01:01:57.000 You go from a tyranny into the desert.

01:01:59.000 You know.

01:02:00.000 Where you starve.

01:02:01.000 It's harsh.

01:02:02.000 That's what happens in the story of Exodus.

01:02:04.000 And so that's so interesting too.

01:02:06.000 Because what it means is that.

01:02:08.000 Sometimes if you're going to move uphill.

01:02:10.000 The first thing that happens is.

01:02:11.000 You move downhill a lot.

01:02:13.000 And so if you want to escape from.

01:02:15.000 The straits that bind you now.

01:02:17.000 You're not going to move forward and go up.

01:02:19.000 You're going to move forward and go down.

01:02:21.000 And that's another reason.

01:02:22.000 This is also something that Jung talked about a lot.

01:02:24.000 Is that.

01:02:25.000 You know.

01:02:26.000 On the road to enlightenment.

01:02:27.000 You encounter all the things.

01:02:28.000 That you don't want to encounter first.

01:02:30.000 Like all the weaknesses of yourself.

01:02:31.000 And all the realizations of the tyranny of the world.

01:02:34.000 And the catastrophe of nature.

01:02:35.000 And all of that.

01:02:36.000 And so.

01:02:37.000 You step out of your encapsulation.

01:02:39.000 Your ignorant encapsulation.

01:02:41.000 And it's immediate plummet into something.

01:02:43.000 That's a desert.

01:02:44.000 Let's say.

01:02:45.000 Where everything is chaotic.

01:02:46.000 And where you're wandering around without direction.

01:02:48.000 A real catastrophe.

01:02:49.000 So it's.

01:02:50.000 You know.

01:02:51.000 Because.

01:02:52.000 One of the things you might ask yourself.

01:02:53.000 Is that.

01:02:54.000 If enlightenment is possible.

01:02:55.000 Then why aren't people enlightened.

01:02:56.000 Because if it was.

01:02:57.000 Just a matter of going from a good place.

01:02:59.000 To a better place.

01:03:00.000 It's like.

01:03:01.000 Well.

01:03:02.000 Man.

01:03:03.000 Let's just get at it.

01:03:04.000 It's no.

01:03:05.000 It's no problem.

01:03:06.000 Right.

01:03:07.000 Not to be that.

01:03:08.000 It's that.

01:03:09.000 You're here.

01:03:10.000 And that's not good.

01:03:11.000 And it's unstable.

01:03:12.000 And you step out of it.

01:03:13.000 And it's like.

01:03:14.000 Down.

01:03:15.000 Down to where you don't want to be.

01:03:16.000 And you have to contend with that.

01:03:17.000 And then maybe you can start your struggle upward.

01:03:18.000 And so.

01:03:19.000 Abraham.

01:03:20.000 God is telling Abraham this.

01:03:21.000 And.

01:03:22.000 He's also telling him that it's okay.

01:03:24.000 It's rough though.

01:03:25.000 And now.

01:03:26.000 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace.

01:03:28.000 Thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

01:03:30.000 But in the fourth generation.

01:03:32.000 They shall come hither again.

01:03:33.000 That's the Israelites.

01:03:34.000 The descendants of Abraham.

01:03:36.000 For the iniquity of the Amorites.

01:03:37.000 Is not yet full.

01:03:38.000 God is going to leave the tyrants alone.

01:03:40.000 Until they've.

01:03:41.000 Manifested their full tyranny.

01:03:43.000 For reasons that we don't fully understand.

01:03:46.000 And it came to pass.

01:03:48.000 That when the sun went down.

01:03:49.000 It was dark.

01:03:50.000 Behold.

01:03:51.000 A smoking furnace.

01:03:52.000 And a burning lamp.

01:03:53.000 That passed between the pieces.

01:03:54.000 All Albert Barnes said.

01:03:55.000 The oven of smoke.

01:03:56.000 And lamp of flame.

01:03:57.000 Symbolize the smoke of destruction.

01:03:59.000 Which we've already talked about.

01:04:00.000 This catastrophe of.

01:04:02.000 Of the initial stages.

01:04:03.000 And the light of salvation.

01:04:05.000 Their passing through the pieces of the victims.

01:04:07.000 And probably consuming them.

01:04:08.000 As an acceptance sacrifice.

01:04:09.000 Are the ratification of the covenant.

01:04:11.000 On the part of God.

01:04:12.000 As the dividing and presenting of them.

01:04:14.000 Were on the part of Abram.

01:04:16.000 In the same day.

01:04:17.000 The Lord made a covenant with Abram.

01:04:19.000 Saying.

01:04:20.000 Unto thy seed.

01:04:21.000 I have given this land.

01:04:22.000 From the river of Egypt.

01:04:23.000 Unto the great river.

01:04:24.000 Euphrates.

01:04:25.000 Now Sarai.

01:04:26.000 Abram's wife.

01:04:27.000 Baram no children.

01:04:28.000 And she had a handmaid.

01:04:30.000 An Egyptian.

01:04:31.000 Whose name was Hagar.

01:04:33.000 So this is a big catastrophe for Abraham.

01:04:35.000 Especially.

01:04:36.000 In those times.

01:04:37.000 And perhaps now.

01:04:38.000 As much.

01:04:39.000 Although perhaps.

01:04:40.000 People aren't as conscious of it.

01:04:42.000 As they once were.

01:04:43.000 I mean.

01:04:44.000 For Abraham.

01:04:45.000 Without a.

01:04:46.000 Biological son.

01:04:47.000 There was no.

01:04:48.000 There was no.

01:04:49.000 There was no.

01:04:50.000 There was no vision forward.

01:04:51.000 Into the future.

01:04:52.000 You know.

01:04:53.000 And.

01:04:54.000 I mean.

01:04:55.000 We don't really know.

01:04:56.000 What sort of time span.

01:04:57.000 Over which.

01:04:58.000 These archaic people fought.

01:04:59.000 But the medieval people.

01:05:00.000 We already said.

01:05:01.000 Could think 300 years.

01:05:02.000 Into the future.

01:05:03.000 Without.

01:05:04.000 Without batting an eye.

01:05:05.000 And.

01:05:06.000 These people who were.

01:05:07.000 Who were concerned.

01:05:08.000 About their descendants.

01:05:09.000 Were obviously thinking.

01:05:10.000 About existence.

01:05:11.000 In a way.

01:05:12.000 That wasn't just focused.

01:05:13.000 On their immediate.

01:05:14.000 Existence.

01:05:15.000 Right.

01:05:16.000 Maybe the whole society.

01:05:17.000 That.

01:05:18.000 That stemmed out from them.

01:05:19.000 And.

01:05:20.000 That's.

01:05:21.000 That's smart.

01:05:22.000 You know.

01:05:23.000 One of the things.

01:05:24.000 I learned from Piaget.

01:05:25.000 At least in part.

01:05:26.000 Was that.

01:05:27.000 His idea.

01:05:28.000 Of the.

01:05:29.000 Equilibrated state.

01:05:30.000 Which he thought about.

01:05:31.000 As partly.

01:05:32.000 Part of the biological basis.

01:05:33.000 Of the idea.

01:05:34.000 Of moral progress.

01:05:35.000 It's something like that.

01:05:36.000 He was a very.

01:05:37.000 Very smart.

01:05:38.000 Piaget.

01:05:39.000 And he said that.

01:05:40.000 The.

01:05:41.000 The proper.

01:05:42.000 Equilibrated state.

01:05:43.000 Is one where.

01:05:44.000 Imagine you have a family.

01:05:45.000 In such a way.

01:05:46.000 So that the other.

01:05:47.000 Four members.

01:05:48.000 Of your family.

01:05:49.000 Agree.

01:05:50.000 With what you do.

01:05:51.000 And that it also.

01:05:52.000 Facilitates them.

01:05:53.000 Doing what they want.

01:05:54.000 And what they should be doing.

01:05:55.000 And so.

01:05:56.000 It's a really tricky.

01:05:57.000 Arrangement.

01:05:58.000 Because it isn't just.

01:05:59.000 For you.

01:06:00.000 It's for you.

01:06:01.000 In a way.

01:06:02.000 That's for them.

01:06:03.000 And you could also see.

01:06:04.000 That that would be.

01:06:05.000 Something that would be.

01:06:06.000 A multiplier.

01:06:07.000 Right.

01:06:08.000 Because if you have.

01:06:09.000 Everyone.

01:06:10.000 That.

01:06:11.000 And then you might think.

01:06:12.000 Well.

01:06:13.000 It's not just.

01:06:14.000 You.

01:06:15.000 And your family.

01:06:16.000 It's you and your family.

01:06:17.000 Today.

01:06:18.000 And next week.

01:06:19.000 And next month.

01:06:20.000 And next year.

01:06:21.000 And ten years from now.

01:06:22.000 So you have to take the time span.

01:06:23.000 To be you and your family.

01:06:24.000 In a way.

01:06:25.000 That works well.

01:06:26.000 In society.

01:06:27.000 And then it should work well.

01:06:28.000 Now.

01:06:29.000 And next week.

01:06:30.000 And next year.

01:06:31.000 And into the future.

01:06:32.000 It should be iteratable.

01:06:33.000 Right.

01:06:34.000 That's like sustainability.

01:06:35.000 It's something like.

01:06:36.000 The idea of sustainability.

01:06:37.000 And that's.

01:06:38.000 That's.

01:06:39.000 I would say.

01:06:40.000 That's a reasonable way.

01:06:41.000 Of conceptualizing.

01:06:42.000 The holy city.

01:06:43.000 It's something like that.

01:06:44.000 You know.

01:06:45.000 If you're.

01:06:46.000 If you're trying to make it concrete.

01:06:47.000 It's like.

01:06:48.000 How should you live your life.

01:06:49.000 Well.

01:06:50.000 Let's say.

01:06:51.000 You live your life.

01:06:52.000 That in a way.

01:06:53.000 That also reduces.

01:06:54.000 The limitations.

01:06:55.000 And suffering.

01:06:56.000 Of the people.

01:06:57.000 That you interact with.

01:06:58.000 And now.

01:06:59.000 And into the future.

01:07:00.000 Well.

01:07:01.000 Maybe there's a way.

01:07:02.000 To do that.

01:07:03.000 I mean.

01:07:04.000 A good negotiation.

01:07:05.000 Does that.

01:07:06.000 Right.

01:07:07.000 Because if you're negotiating.

01:07:08.000 With someone.

01:07:09.000 Like your wife.

01:07:10.000 For example.

01:07:11.000 What you want is.

01:07:12.000 For her to agree.

01:07:13.000 With the negotiation.

01:07:14.000 And one of the things.

01:07:15.000 That Piaget said.

01:07:16.000 Which I think.

01:07:17.000 Was brilliant.

01:07:18.000 Brilliant.

01:07:19.000 He said.

01:07:20.000 If you take.

01:07:21.000 Where.

01:07:22.000 Let's say.

01:07:23.000 The father.

01:07:24.000 Is a tyrant.

01:07:25.000 And everyone.

01:07:26.000 Is operating.

01:07:27.000 Under his.

01:07:28.000 Whip.

01:07:29.000 And you put them.

01:07:30.000 In a head-to-head.

01:07:31.000 Competition.

01:07:32.000 The equilibrated system.

01:07:33.000 Will outcompete.

01:07:34.000 The disequilibrated system.

01:07:35.000 Because.

01:07:36.000 The enforcement cost.

01:07:37.000 Is such.

01:07:38.000 That it will slow.

01:07:39.000 The system down.

01:07:40.000 You know.

01:07:41.000 Working at counter purposes.

01:07:42.000 To itself.

01:07:43.000 Plus.

01:07:44.000 There's enforcement.

01:07:45.000 Costs.

01:07:46.000 And so.

01:07:47.000 A tyranny.

01:07:48.000 Cannot beat.

01:07:49.000 An equilibrated system.

01:07:50.000 And I was really.

01:07:51.000 Excited to.

01:07:52.000 Encounter that idea.

01:07:53.000 Because when I.

01:07:54.000 Encountered it.

01:07:55.000 The quantitative.

01:07:56.000 Difference.

01:07:57.000 Between.

01:07:58.000 The system.

01:07:59.000 Say of the Soviet Union.

01:08:00.000 And Maoist China.

01:08:01.000 And the systems of the West.

01:08:02.000 Apart from just.

01:08:03.000 You know.

01:08:04.000 Arbitrary world.

01:08:05.000 Interpretation.

01:08:06.000 As the post-modern.

01:08:07.000 Nihilists.

01:08:08.000 There's something.

01:08:09.000 Fundamental.

01:08:10.000 At stake.

01:08:11.000 In the terrible.

01:08:12.000 Cold War.

01:08:13.000 That we fought.

01:08:14.000 Or if it was just.

01:08:15.000 A matter of opinion.

01:08:16.000 You know.

01:08:17.000 When the Piagetian take.

01:08:18.000 Was that.

01:08:19.000 Well.

01:08:20.000 Roughly speaking.

01:08:21.000 Is that the West.

01:08:22.000 Was an equilibrated system.

01:08:23.000 Not perfectly.

01:08:24.000 Equilibrated.

01:08:25.000 But reasonably.

01:08:26.000 Equilibrated.

01:08:27.000 In that people were.

01:08:28.000 Essentially.

01:08:29.000 Even if they were slaves.

01:08:30.000 To some degree.

01:08:31.000 They were at least.

01:08:32.000 Voluntary slaves.

01:08:33.000 Instead of.

01:08:34.000 Involuntary slaves.

01:08:35.000 And that that was better.

01:08:36.000 The system was actually.

01:08:37.000 So that's a lovely thing.

01:08:38.000 To know.

01:08:39.000 And I think it's a really.

01:08:40.000 Really solid.

01:08:41.000 Really.

01:08:42.000 Really solid idea.

01:08:43.000 I haven't been able to.

01:08:44.000 You know.

01:08:45.000 Put crowbars under that idea.

01:08:46.000 And lift it up.

01:08:47.000 I think it's a good one.

01:08:48.000 So.

01:08:49.000 Now.

01:08:50.000 Sarai.

01:08:51.000 Abram's wife.

01:08:52.000 Baram no children.

01:08:53.000 So okay.

01:08:54.000 Back to children.

01:08:55.000 One of the things.

01:08:56.000 That's worth thinking about.

01:08:57.000 With regards to reading these old stories.

01:08:58.000 Because we're so.

01:08:59.000 We're very arrogant.

01:09:00.000 Modern people.

01:09:01.000 We look at these old stories.

01:09:02.000 And we think.

01:09:03.000 We've transcended all that superstition.

01:09:05.000 It's like.

01:09:06.000 I'm not bloody sure about that.

01:09:07.000 These people weren't stupid.

01:09:09.000 And so.

01:09:10.000 There's.

01:09:11.000 There.

01:09:12.000 There are ways.

01:09:13.000 That they viewed the world.

01:09:14.000 That we don't have anymore.

01:09:15.000 And one of them seems to be this.

01:09:17.000 Concern for.

01:09:18.000 Descendants.

01:09:19.000 Because that just isn't part of our.

01:09:21.000 Way of thinking.

01:09:22.000 We have very short term.

01:09:23.000 Way of thinking.

01:09:24.000 Maybe it's.

01:09:25.000 It's not even one lifetime long.

01:09:26.000 It's certainly not multiple lifetimes long.

01:09:28.000 And it isn't clear to me at all.

01:09:29.000 That that's for the best.

01:09:30.000 And you know.

01:09:31.000 The.

01:09:32.000 The constant complaint.

01:09:33.000 That the environmentalists.

01:09:34.000 Generate.

01:09:35.000 Some of which is justified.

01:09:36.000 And some of which is just.

01:09:37.000 Anti-capitalist.

01:09:38.000 Anti-patriarchal nonsense.

01:09:39.000 That should be cleared out of that.

01:09:41.000 Entire conversation.

01:09:42.000 Is that.

01:09:43.000 We need to take a longer view.

01:09:45.000 And consider more things in our purview.

01:09:47.000 When not.

01:09:48.000 When we act.

01:09:49.000 And like.

01:09:50.000 That's fair enough.

01:09:51.000 There's nothing in it.

01:09:52.000 But jellyfish.

01:09:53.000 Because that's really what we're doing.

01:09:54.000 And we're doing it very very rapidly.

01:09:56.000 And the data on that are very clear.

01:09:58.000 And so.

01:09:59.000 You know.

01:10:00.000 When you lift up your eyes.

01:10:01.000 And you make a connection.

01:10:02.000 With something that's transcendent.

01:10:03.000 Then.

01:10:04.000 That should bring more of the world.

01:10:05.000 Within your purview.

01:10:06.000 And.

01:10:07.000 And maybe that's concern for.

01:10:08.000 The endless number of descendants.

01:10:09.000 That you might have.

01:10:10.000 You might think too.

01:10:11.000 Well you know.

01:10:12.000 If you're a successful person.

01:10:14.000 If you have a successful family.

01:10:15.000 God only knows.

01:10:16.000 How many people.

01:10:17.000 You will be the father of.

01:10:19.000 Right.

01:10:20.000 Completely.

01:10:21.000 Because you're a nexus.

01:10:22.000 Right.

01:10:23.000 All sorts of things.

01:10:24.000 Have come together.

01:10:25.000 In the cosmos.

01:10:26.000 To produce you.

01:10:27.000 And then all sorts of things.

01:10:28.000 Manifest themselves.

01:10:29.000 From you.

01:10:30.000 You have no idea.

01:10:31.000 What your potential.

01:10:32.000 The potential consequences.

01:10:33.000 Of your actions.

01:10:34.000 Might be.

01:10:35.000 As they.

01:10:36.000 Cascade across time.

01:10:37.000 Right.

01:10:38.000 You have no idea.

01:10:39.000 And so.

01:10:40.000 Abraham at least.

01:10:41.000 Is concerned.

01:10:42.000 With these sorts of things.

01:10:43.000 And.

01:10:44.000 God seems to be concerned too.

01:10:45.000 Because he promises Abraham.

01:10:46.000 That.

01:10:47.000 If he maintains the covenant.

01:10:48.000 That the most important things.

01:10:49.000 And they're pretty serious.

01:10:52.000 About this.

01:10:53.000 So.

01:10:54.000 Sarai.

01:10:55.000 Talks to Abraham.

01:10:56.000 She's not very happy.

01:10:57.000 About the fact.

01:10:58.000 That she can't have children.

01:10:59.000 She says.

01:11:00.000 Behold now.

01:11:01.000 The Lord hath restrained me.

01:11:02.000 From bearing.

01:11:03.000 I pray thee.

01:11:04.000 Go in unto my maid.

01:11:05.000 It may be.

01:11:06.000 That I obtain children.

01:11:07.000 By her.

01:11:08.000 And Abraham.

01:11:09.000 Hearkened.

01:11:10.000 To the voice of Sarai.

01:11:11.000 It's a trivial thing.

01:11:12.000 I wouldn't think.

01:11:13.000 I don't imagine.

01:11:14.000 That.

01:11:15.000 Sarai.

01:11:16.000 Was very happy.

01:11:17.000 About.

01:11:18.000 Turning.

01:11:19.000 Her maid.

01:11:20.000 Over to her husband.

01:11:21.000 And potentially.

01:11:22.000 Being usurped.

01:11:23.000 In the.

01:11:24.000 Whole childbearing.

01:11:25.000 Process.

01:11:26.000 Not in the least.

01:11:27.000 But.

01:11:28.000 You know.

01:11:29.000 About that.

01:11:30.000 And.

01:11:31.000 Of course.

01:11:32.000 It's very difficult.

01:11:33.000 For us.

01:11:34.000 To talk about.

01:11:35.000 The ethics.

01:11:36.000 Of the fact.

01:11:37.000 That Hager.

01:11:38.000 Was more or less.

01:11:39.000 Involuntary.

01:11:40.000 Participant in this.

01:11:41.000 But that was the times.

01:11:42.000 Absolutely.

01:11:43.000 The case.

01:11:44.000 And of course.

01:11:45.000 Slavery.

01:11:46.000 And indentured servitude.

01:11:47.000 Is the way of mankind.

01:11:48.000 Except in very.

01:11:49.000 Very.

01:11:50.000 Very limited circumstances.

01:11:51.000 Carl Jung.

01:11:52.000 Had something to say.

01:11:53.000 About that too.

01:11:54.000 Which I really liked.

01:11:55.000 He said.

01:11:56.000 That part of the reason.

01:11:57.000 That modern people.

01:11:58.000 Have been able.

01:12:00.000 To escape.

01:12:01.000 From the.

01:12:02.000 Catastrophe.

01:12:03.000 Of tyranny.

01:12:04.000 And slavery.

01:12:05.000 Is because.

01:12:06.000 We've agreed.

01:12:07.000 To make ourselves.

01:12:08.000 Our own slaves.

01:12:09.000 Right.

01:12:10.000 So instead of owning a slave.

01:12:11.000 You own yourself.

01:12:12.000 In a sense.

01:12:13.000 And so you trot yourself.

01:12:14.000 Off to work.

01:12:15.000 And exploit yourself.

01:12:16.000 So that you can stay alive.

01:12:17.000 And maybe it's not something.

01:12:18.000 That you want to do.

01:12:19.000 But you've taken on the role.

01:12:20.000 Of slave.

01:12:21.000 In some sense.

01:12:22.000 In relationship.

01:12:23.000 To your own survival.

01:12:24.000 Instead of forcing.

01:12:25.000 Someone else.

01:12:26.000 To do it.

01:12:27.000 Is that we're willing.

01:12:28.000 To enslave ourselves.

01:12:29.000 As individuals.

01:12:30.000 And we're not.

01:12:31.000 We're not doing that.

01:12:32.000 To other people.

01:12:33.000 Now.

01:12:34.000 We're doing it.

01:12:35.000 To some degree.

01:12:36.000 Obviously.

01:12:37.000 Because the society is imperfect.

01:12:38.000 But that's something.

01:12:39.000 That's very much.

01:12:40.000 Worth thinking about.

01:12:41.000 So.

01:12:42.000 And Sarai.

01:12:43.000 Abram's wife.

01:12:44.000 Took Hagar.

01:12:45.000 Her maid.

01:12:46.000 The Egyptian.

01:12:47.000 After Abram.

01:12:48.000 Had dwelt ten years.

01:12:49.000 In the land of Canaan.

01:12:50.000 And gave her.

01:12:51.000 To her husband.

01:12:52.000 Abram.

01:12:53.000 To be his wife.

01:12:54.000 That's the other thing.

01:12:55.000 That's been so interesting.

01:12:56.000 About doing this.

01:12:57.000 One of the other things.

01:12:58.000 About doing this.

01:12:59.000 Biblical series.

01:13:00.000 And it's one of the things.

01:13:01.000 That's so cool.

01:13:02.000 About Google.

01:13:03.000 Despite the fact.

01:13:04.000 That they cut off my account.

01:13:05.000 You can find any piece of art.

01:13:09.000 That ever existed.

01:13:10.000 On Google.

01:13:11.000 And so that's great.

01:13:12.000 So you know.

01:13:13.000 When I'm trying to illustrate.

01:13:14.000 These.

01:13:15.000 These lectures.

01:13:16.000 I type in.

01:13:17.000 Abraham.

01:13:18.000 Renaissance.

01:13:19.000 And then like.

01:13:20.000 I get.

01:13:21.000 200 Renaissance paintings.

01:13:22.000 It's so great.

01:13:23.000 And then I can look at them.

01:13:24.000 And one of the other things.

01:13:25.000 That's.

01:13:26.000 So remarkable.

01:13:27.000 Is that all of these.

01:13:28.000 The major themes.

01:13:29.000 Of these stories.

01:13:30.000 Have been illustrated.

01:13:31.000 By people.

01:13:32.000 Of spectacular.

01:13:33.000 Mind.

01:13:34.000 Expanding.

01:13:35.000 Talent.

01:13:36.000 You know.

01:13:37.000 There's just this.

01:13:38.000 Endless.

01:13:39.000 Array.

01:13:40.000 Of.

01:13:41.000 Well.

01:13:42.000 Look at that.

01:13:43.000 I mean.

01:13:44.000 That's an amazing painting.

01:13:45.000 And so.

01:13:46.000 And there's.

01:13:47.000 And of this.

01:13:48.000 There's.

01:13:49.000 There's dozens of paintings.

01:13:50.000 On this theme.

01:13:51.000 And it's just another indication.

01:13:52.000 Of how.

01:13:53.000 Obsessed people.

01:13:54.000 You know.

01:13:55.000 This was the only book.

01:13:56.000 That existed.

01:13:57.000 For years.

01:13:58.000 And people were absolutely obsessed.

01:13:59.000 By it.

01:14:00.000 And produced all these amazing things.

01:14:01.000 From it.

01:14:02.000 And we're in danger of losing that.

01:14:03.000 That's a big mistake.

01:14:04.000 Because it's magnificent.

01:14:06.000 A little humility.

01:14:07.000 Would go a long way.

01:14:08.000 Towards restoring it.

01:14:09.000 And he went into.

01:14:11.000 Unto Hagar.

01:14:12.000 And she conceived.

01:14:14.000 And when she saw.

01:14:15.000 That she had conceived.

01:14:16.000 Her mistress.

01:14:17.000 Was despised.

01:14:18.000 In her eyes.

01:14:19.000 So.

01:14:20.000 Hagar.

01:14:21.000 Was successful.

01:14:22.000 And like.

01:14:23.000 That was.

01:14:24.000 A hallmark.

01:14:25.000 Of.

01:14:26.000 Feminine success.

01:14:27.000 Now.

01:14:28.000 And so.

01:14:29.000 She started.

01:14:30.000 To lord it over.

01:14:31.000 Sarai.

01:14:32.000 Which seemed.

01:14:33.000 A little bit.

01:14:34.000 On the ungrateful.

01:14:35.000 Side.

01:14:36.000 I would say.

01:14:37.000 Because.

01:14:38.000 Sarai.

01:14:39.000 Made a big sacrifice.

01:14:40.000 To.

01:14:41.000 Allow.

01:14:42.000 In order.

01:14:43.000 I suppose.

01:14:44.000 At least.

01:14:45.000 That's how the story goes.

01:14:46.000 And Sarai.

01:14:47.000 Said unto Abraham.

01:14:48.000 My wrong.

01:14:49.000 Be upon thee.

01:14:50.000 I have given.

01:14:51.000 My maid.

01:14:52.000 Into thy bosom.

01:14:53.000 And when she saw.

01:14:54.000 That she had conceived.

01:14:55.000 I was despised.

01:14:56.000 In her eyes.

01:14:57.000 To judge.

01:14:58.000 Between you.

01:14:59.000 And I.

01:15:00.000 And Abraham.

01:15:01.000 Said unto Sarai.

01:15:02.000 Behold.

01:15:03.000 Thy maid.

01:15:04.000 Is in thine hand.

01:15:05.000 Do to her.

01:15:06.000 As it pleases you.

01:15:07.000 And when Sarai.

01:15:08.000 Dealt hardly.

01:15:09.000 With her.

01:15:10.000 Hagar.

01:15:11.000 Fled from her face.

01:15:12.000 And the angel.

01:15:13.000 Of the Lord.

01:15:14.000 Found her.

01:15:15.000 By a fountain.

01:15:16.000 Of water.

01:15:17.000 In the wilderness.

01:15:18.000 By the fountain.

01:15:19.000 In the wilderness.

01:15:20.000 By the fountain.

01:15:21.000 In the wilderness.

01:15:22.000 And the angel.

01:15:23.000 Of the Lord.

01:15:24.000 Said.

01:15:25.000 Ammit.

01:15:26.000 Under her hands.

01:15:27.000 And the angel.

01:15:28.000 Said.

01:15:29.000 I will multiply.

01:15:30.000 Your seed.

01:15:31.000 Exceedingly.

01:15:32.000 That it shall not.

01:15:33.000 Be numbered.

01:15:34.000 For multitude.

01:15:35.000 And the angel.

01:15:36.000 Said.

01:15:37.000 Behold.

01:15:38.000 Thou art with child.

01:15:39.000 Thou shalt.

01:15:40.000 Bear a son.

01:15:41.000 And shall.

01:15:42.000 Shall call his name.

01:15:43.000 Ishmael.

01:15:44.000 And Ishmael.

01:15:45.000 Means.

01:15:46.000 God hears.

01:15:47.000 By the way.

01:15:48.000 Because the Lord.

01:15:49.000 Has heard thy affliction.

01:15:50.000 And he'll be a wild man.

01:15:52.000 His hand will be against every man.

01:15:54.000 And every man's hand against him.

01:15:55.000 To her.

01:15:56.000 Thou God seest me.

01:15:57.000 For she said.

01:15:58.000 Have I also.

01:15:59.000 Here looked after him.

01:16:00.000 That seeth me.

01:16:01.000 Wherefore the wall.

01:16:02.000 Well.

01:16:03.000 Was called.

01:16:04.000 Bir Laharoi.

01:16:05.000 And that means.

01:16:06.000 The well.

01:16:07.000 Who sees me.

01:16:08.000 And lives.

01:16:09.000 It's an interesting interlude.

01:16:10.000 Because.

01:16:11.000 You know.

01:16:12.000 Abraham.

01:16:13.000 God has established.

01:16:14.000 This covenant.

01:16:15.000 With Abraham.

01:16:16.000 And obviously.

01:16:17.000 Things are going wrong.

01:16:18.000 In the household.

01:16:19.000 In a really serious way.

01:16:20.000 Like a really serious way.

01:16:21.000 Because.

01:16:22.000 Well.

01:16:23.000 Two women are not getting along.

01:16:24.000 And one is beating the other.

01:16:26.000 Because of her insubordination.

01:16:27.000 And.

01:16:28.000 And contempt.

01:16:29.000 And so.

01:16:30.000 She's so desperate.

01:16:31.000 She runs out into the desert.

01:16:32.000 Where she's probably going to die.

01:16:34.000 And God comes along.

01:16:35.000 And says anyways.

01:16:36.000 To.

01:16:37.000 To.

01:16:38.000 To.

01:16:39.000 To.

01:16:40.000 To Hagar.

01:16:41.000 That.

01:16:42.000 Her son.

01:16:43.000 Shall as well.

01:16:44.000 Be the father of nations.

01:16:45.000 And so.

01:16:46.000 That's partly.

01:16:47.000 A reflection.

01:16:48.000 Back.

01:16:49.000 On the power.

01:16:50.000 Of Abraham's covenant.

01:16:51.000 Right.

01:16:52.000 Even though.

01:16:53.000 Even though.

01:16:54.000 Things are going terribly wrong.

01:16:55.000 Locally.

01:16:56.000 Let's say.

01:16:57.000 Of these catastrophes.

01:16:58.000 Are taking place.

01:16:59.000 Within a bounded.

01:17:00.000 Space.

01:17:01.000 Within the arc.

01:17:02.000 We could say.

01:17:03.000 That's one way.

01:17:04.000 Of looking at it.

01:17:05.000 And I do think.

01:17:06.000 I do think.

01:17:07.000 That that's right.

01:17:08.000 Because it seems to me.

01:17:09.000 That.

01:17:10.000 You know.

01:17:11.000 If everything falls apart.

01:17:12.000 Around you.

01:17:13.000 There's a couple of things.

01:17:14.000 You're going to want.

01:17:15.000 You're going to want.

01:17:16.000 Someone standing beside you.

01:17:17.000 That's for sure.

01:17:18.000 That you can trust.

01:17:19.000 You're going to want.

01:17:20.000 Your family around you.

01:17:21.000 And you're going to want.

01:17:22.000 Them to have your back.

01:17:23.000 To know.

01:17:24.000 That you didn't do.

01:17:25.000 Some god damn stupid thing.

01:17:26.000 To bring.

01:17:27.000 All hell down.

01:17:28.000 On yourself.

01:17:29.000 And if you're lacking.

01:17:30.000 Any of those.

01:17:31.000 When that crisis comes.

01:17:32.000 There's a high probability.

01:17:33.000 It will flatten you.

01:17:34.000 And you won't be able.

01:17:35.000 To get up.

01:17:36.000 You know.

01:17:37.000 It does seem to me.

01:17:38.000 You can ask yourself.

01:17:39.000 This question.

01:17:40.000 When.

01:17:41.000 Things collapse.

01:17:42.000 Around you.

01:17:43.000 How much utility.

01:17:44.000 Is knowledge.

01:17:45.000 Of your own moral virtue.

01:17:46.000 It's bad enough.

01:17:47.000 To be laid.

01:17:48.000 It's bad.

01:17:49.000 To be laid low.

01:17:50.000 And to know.

01:17:51.000 That you were.

01:17:52.000 The fault.

01:17:53.000 For it.

01:17:54.000 And worse.

01:17:55.000 The things that you did.

01:17:56.000 That you knew you did.

01:17:57.000 That were wrong.

01:17:58.000 Brought you there.

01:17:59.000 Then I think.

01:18:00.000 You have nothing to stand on.

01:18:01.000 In that situation.

01:18:02.000 And that's also.

01:18:03.000 The circumstances.

01:18:04.000 Under which.

01:18:05.000 I think you're more.

01:18:06.000 More likely.

01:18:07.000 At least.

01:18:08.000 To be abandoned.

01:18:09.000 By people around you.

01:18:10.000 So.

01:18:11.000 Given that you know.

01:18:12.000 That the catastrophe.

01:18:13.000 Is coming.

01:18:14.000 Right.

01:18:15.000 That the tragedy of life.

01:18:16.000 Will strike you.

01:18:17.000 The question is.

01:18:18.000 Well.

01:18:19.000 Obviously.

01:18:20.000 To some degree.

01:18:21.000 In the principle.

01:18:22.000 And these old people.

01:18:23.000 In the test.

01:18:24.000 In the old testament.

01:18:25.000 These ancient people.

01:18:26.000 They weren't.

01:18:27.000 Blind to the utility.

01:18:28.000 Of having.

01:18:29.000 A good crop.

01:18:30.000 And some animals.

01:18:31.000 You know.

01:18:32.000 That's a.

01:18:33.000 That's an integral part.

01:18:34.000 Of their life.

01:18:35.000 They're also wise enough.

01:18:36.000 To know.

01:18:37.000 That.

01:18:38.000 There's an element.

01:18:39.000 Of moral.

01:18:40.000 This.

01:18:41.000 What would you call it.

01:18:42.000 There's a necessity.

01:18:43.000 For moral integration.

01:18:44.000 That.

01:18:45.000 Defends you.

01:18:46.000 Against the catastrophe.

01:18:47.000 Of existence.

01:18:48.000 Even more effectively.

01:18:49.000 Than anything material.

01:18:50.000 And even more.

01:18:52.000 That.

01:18:53.000 The stability.

01:18:54.000 Of the material things.

01:18:55.000 Is more dependent.

01:18:56.000 On the integrity.

01:18:57.000 Of your spirit.

01:18:58.000 Than the integrity.

01:18:59.000 Of your spirit.

01:19:00.000 Is dependent.

01:19:01.000 And I think.

01:19:02.000 The evidence.

01:19:03.000 For that.

01:19:04.000 Is actually.

01:19:05.000 Quite clear.

01:19:06.000 I read.

01:19:07.000 It wrote.

01:19:08.000 Read a very.

01:19:09.000 Interesting book.

01:19:10.000 A while back.

01:19:11.000 Called.

01:19:12.000 The wealth.

01:19:13.000 And poverty.

01:19:14.000 Of nations.

01:19:15.000 That was written.

01:19:16.000 By a Harvard.

01:19:17.000 Emeritus.

01:19:18.000 Professor of history.

01:19:19.000 And one of the things.

01:19:20.000 That he claimed.

01:19:21.000 I liked it.

01:19:22.000 I thought it was very smart.

01:19:23.000 Was that.

01:19:24.000 The only true.

01:19:25.000 Natural resource.

01:19:26.000 Is interpersonal trust.

01:19:27.000 If you can set up.

01:19:28.000 A society.

01:19:29.000 But the Japanese.

01:19:30.000 Have no natural resources.

01:19:31.000 Right.

01:19:32.000 None.

01:19:33.000 To speak of.

01:19:34.000 And yet.

01:19:35.000 They're rich.

01:19:36.000 And then you have countries.

01:19:37.000 Like the Soviet.

01:19:38.000 Russia.

01:19:39.000 And much of South America.

01:19:40.000 Where there's just.

01:19:41.000 Natural resources.

01:19:42.000 That you know.

01:19:43.000 They're just.

01:19:44.000 Like Venezuela.

01:19:45.000 Just.

01:19:46.000 More natural resources.

01:19:47.000 Than you know.

01:19:48.000 What to do with.

01:19:49.000 And the places.

01:19:50.000 Are absolute catastrophes.

01:19:51.000 Absolute catastrophes.

01:19:52.000 Of cynicism.

01:19:53.000 And corruption.

01:19:54.000 And so.

01:19:55.000 He attempted.

01:19:56.000 To document.

01:19:57.000 The relationship.

01:19:58.000 Among citizens.

01:19:59.000 Within countries.

01:20:00.000 And.

01:20:01.000 Their.

01:20:02.000 Their productivity.

01:20:03.000 And their.

01:20:04.000 Their GDP.

01:20:05.000 And their.

01:20:06.000 Their standard of living.

01:20:07.000 And found a very.

01:20:08.000 Very tight relationship.

01:20:09.000 And.

01:20:10.000 And I like that a lot.

01:20:11.000 And.

01:20:12.000 I've got a story.

01:20:13.000 About that quickly.

01:20:14.000 That I think.

01:20:15.000 Is very interesting.

01:20:16.000 I'll tell you two stories.

01:20:17.000 One.

01:20:18.000 Sort of generic.

01:20:19.000 Today.

01:20:20.000 I lent my car.

01:20:21.000 To one of my graduate students.

01:20:22.000 And he took it to Montreal.

01:20:23.000 This old Cadillac.

01:20:24.000 And.

01:20:25.000 He got.

01:20:26.000 It was a really bad rainstorm.

01:20:28.000 In Montreal.

01:20:29.000 And he was in one of the.

01:20:30.000 Highways.

01:20:31.000 That are like.

01:20:32.000 Set.

01:20:33.000 Into the ground.

01:20:34.000 And there was like.

01:20:35.000 Six inches of water.

01:20:36.000 And.

01:20:37.000 Smacked it into the wall.

01:20:38.000 And.

01:20:39.000 On the corner of the.

01:20:40.000 Of the bumper.

01:20:41.000 You know.

01:20:42.000 And so then he brought it back.

01:20:43.000 And he was very apologetic about it.

01:20:44.000 And.

01:20:45.000 And.

01:20:46.000 His name was Matt Shane.

01:20:47.000 I'll tell you that.

01:20:48.000 Because Matt might hear this.

01:20:49.000 And I can shame him a bit.

01:20:50.000 For doing this.

01:20:51.000 20 years ago.

01:20:52.000 You know.

01:20:53.000 And.

01:20:54.000 He's a professor at.

01:20:55.000 The.

01:20:56.000 Ontario Institute of Technology.

01:20:57.000 I think now.

01:20:58.000 And.

01:20:59.000 Quite a successful one.

01:21:00.000 But.

01:21:01.000 Anyways.

01:21:02.000 He brought the car back.

01:21:03.000 And.

01:21:04.000 I went and got it.

01:21:05.000 Evaluated for damages.

01:21:06.000 Or something to repair it.

01:21:07.000 And.

01:21:08.000 Or maybe more.

01:21:09.000 But it was almost as much.

01:21:10.000 As the car was worth.

01:21:11.000 And I thought.

01:21:12.000 Well.

01:21:13.000 I'm not going to do that.

01:21:14.000 So.

01:21:15.000 I went online.

01:21:16.000 And I typed in the part.

01:21:17.000 And.

01:21:18.000 If you do that.

01:21:19.000 You can get people to bid on.

01:21:21.000 Sending you a used part.

01:21:22.000 From all over North America.

01:21:23.000 So that's kind of cool.

01:21:24.000 So there's.

01:21:25.000 All these junk dealers.

01:21:26.000 Have got together.

01:21:27.000 And they have this.

01:21:28.000 You know.

01:21:29.000 Network of communication.

01:21:30.000 So you put in the car part.

01:21:31.000 And.

01:21:32.000 Then they send you a bid.

01:21:33.000 And so this guy.

01:21:34.000 Said.

01:21:35.000 The lights.

01:21:36.000 For like.

01:21:37.000 250 bucks.

01:21:38.000 And I thought.

01:21:39.000 Yeah.

01:21:40.000 Okay.

01:21:41.000 You could do that.

01:21:42.000 That'd be good.

01:21:43.000 So then I said yes.

01:21:44.000 And then.

01:21:45.000 He called me up.

01:21:46.000 About half an hour later.

01:21:47.000 This guy from way down south.

01:21:48.000 He had a really deep.

01:21:49.000 Sort of Mississippi accent.

01:21:50.000 And he said.

01:21:51.000 Wait a sec.

01:21:52.000 Was that for the bumper.

01:21:53.000 Or the bumper assembly?

01:21:54.000 And I said.

01:21:55.000 Well.

01:21:56.000 It was for the bumper assembly.

01:21:57.000 He said.

01:21:58.000 Oh.

01:21:59.000 I'm going to send it to you anyways.

01:22:00.000 I thought.

01:22:01.000 Well.

01:22:02.000 That's pretty good.

01:22:03.000 So I said.

01:22:04.000 Well.

01:22:05.000 Thank you.

01:22:06.000 And then I hung up.

01:22:07.000 And then.

01:22:08.000 Half an hour later.

01:22:09.000 He called me up again.

01:22:10.000 And he said.

01:22:11.000 Look.

01:22:12.000 I just went out.

01:22:13.000 And looked at that bumper assembly.

01:22:14.000 And there's a plastic trim piece.

01:22:15.000 On the side.

01:22:16.000 And it has a scratch in it.

01:22:17.000 And I thought.

01:22:18.000 I better tell you that.

01:22:19.000 Just in case.

01:22:20.000 You didn't want it.

01:22:21.000 And I thought.

01:22:22.000 Wow.

01:22:23.000 That's so amazing.

01:22:24.000 Ever.

01:22:25.000 Never going to have any contact with him.

01:22:27.000 Like.

01:22:28.000 He made a bad deal.

01:22:29.000 Right.

01:22:30.000 Because the part was worth more.

01:22:31.000 Than he decided to sell it to me for.

01:22:32.000 But he stuck with this deal.

01:22:33.000 And then he went over and above.

01:22:34.000 The call of duty.

01:22:35.000 He said.

01:22:36.000 Well.

01:22:37.000 This part that I'm selling you.

01:22:38.000 To you.

01:22:39.000 For way less than it's worth.

01:22:40.000 Is damaged.

01:22:41.000 So I thought I better tell you.

01:22:42.000 It's like.

01:22:43.000 Man.

01:22:44.000 You got to recognize a miracle.

01:22:45.000 When you see one.

01:22:46.000 That was a miracle.

01:22:47.000 So I said.

01:22:48.000 Hey.

01:22:49.000 Look.

01:22:50.000 Thanks for calling.

01:22:51.000 Man.

01:22:52.000 It's okay.

01:22:53.000 And I got the car fixed.

01:22:55.000 And forgave Matt.

01:22:56.000 And you know.

01:22:57.000 It had a happy ending.

01:22:58.000 So.

01:22:59.000 So that's trust.

01:23:00.000 Right.

01:23:01.000 Because.

01:23:02.000 I didn't know him from Adam.

01:23:04.000 And he's a primate.

01:23:05.000 Full of snakes.

01:23:06.000 Just like the rest of us.

01:23:07.000 And yet.

01:23:08.000 He was willing to simplify himself.

01:23:09.000 To the point.

01:23:10.000 Where I could just take him.

01:23:11.000 Absolutely at his word.

01:23:12.000 And that meant we could trade.

01:23:13.000 Even though we were strangers.

01:23:14.000 It's like.

01:23:15.000 Man.

01:23:16.000 Do not.

01:23:17.000 Underestimate the utility of that.

01:23:18.000 And then there's eBay.

01:23:19.000 So when eBay first started.

01:23:20.000 You know.

01:23:21.000 The idea was.

01:23:22.000 Because you'll send me junk.

01:23:23.000 And I'll send you a check that bounces.

01:23:25.000 And that'll be the end of eBay.

01:23:26.000 Right.

01:23:27.000 And so.

01:23:28.000 These escrow agents popped up.

01:23:29.000 So you could ensure your transaction with them.

01:23:32.000 It was for like 10% of the transaction.

01:23:34.000 They would get the check.

01:23:35.000 And the goods.

01:23:36.000 And make sure that they were.

01:23:37.000 Okay.

01:23:38.000 And then.

01:23:39.000 Send them on.

01:23:40.000 Or ensure the transaction.

01:23:41.000 But what happened was.

01:23:42.000 The escrow agents didn't make any money.

01:23:44.000 And the reason for that was.

01:23:45.000 No one cheated.

01:23:46.000 Now you think about how amazing that is.

01:23:48.000 Right.

01:23:49.000 You bring these people together.

01:23:50.000 Across a whole continent.

01:23:52.000 They've never seen each other before.

01:23:53.000 They're never going to interact with each other again.

01:23:55.000 And this was before there were any reputation ratings on eBay.

01:23:58.000 And yet the default transaction was.

01:24:00.000 You describe your goods honestly.

01:24:02.000 Including their flaws.

01:24:04.000 You set a reasonable price.

01:24:05.000 I decide to pay you.

01:24:07.000 You ship the goods.

01:24:08.000 And I pay you.

01:24:09.000 And it works.

01:24:10.000 And what happened was.

01:24:12.000 That eBay produced.

01:24:13.000 It produced a tremendous amount of capital.

01:24:16.000 That was previously frozen.

01:24:17.000 So frozen capital.

01:24:18.000 Is when you've invested money in something.

01:24:20.000 But the thing is no longer useful to you.

01:24:23.000 So the money is just sitting there.

01:24:25.000 Frozen.

01:24:26.000 Right.

01:24:27.000 So to speak.

01:24:28.000 And you can't get it loose.

01:24:29.000 Because well.

01:24:30.000 You've got an attic full of junk.

01:24:31.000 How are you going to get rid of that?

01:24:33.000 Oh eBay.

01:24:34.000 And so all of a sudden.

01:24:35.000 All these things that were just junk.

01:24:36.000 Became valuable.

01:24:37.000 And everybody got richer.

01:24:38.000 And none of that would have happened.

01:24:40.000 Without the covenant.

01:24:41.000 That we established between each other.

01:24:43.000 That's predicated on trust.

01:24:45.000 And so you might say.

01:24:46.000 That trust is the currency.

01:24:48.000 And currency is trust.

01:24:49.000 Because it's a promissory note.

01:24:51.000 Right.

01:24:52.000 And if people lie.

01:24:53.000 Then the currency gets debased.

01:24:54.000 Very very rapidly.

01:24:55.000 And so the economy runs on trust.

01:24:57.000 And so.

01:25:00.000 That's part of the overarching covenant.

01:25:03.000 So Abraham.

01:25:07.000 Makes this covenant with God.

01:25:08.000 And he decides that he's going to.

01:25:10.000 Aim high.

01:25:11.000 And live a good life.

01:25:12.000 And tell the truth.

01:25:14.000 And that puts this boundary around him.

01:25:16.000 It's like a walled garden.

01:25:18.000 It's like a walled garden.

01:25:19.000 And inside there.

01:25:20.000 There's all sorts of things that are happening.

01:25:22.000 That are complex and difficult.

01:25:23.000 But outside.

01:25:24.000 There's a boundary.

01:25:25.000 And the boundary is.

01:25:27.000 Well.

01:25:28.000 Maybe things won't.

01:25:30.000 It's like God.

01:25:31.000 Says after the flood.

01:25:33.000 He says.

01:25:34.000 I'll never send a flood again.

01:25:35.000 That's part of the story.

01:25:36.000 And so there's an intimation there.

01:25:37.000 That no matter how bad things get.

01:25:39.000 They won't get so bad.

01:25:40.000 That they'll be catastrophic.

01:25:41.000 But there's a.

01:25:42.000 But there's a coda to that.

01:25:43.000 Which is that you have to.

01:25:44.000 Maintain the covenant.

01:25:46.000 And.

01:25:48.000 We don't know what that means.

01:25:49.000 You know.

01:25:50.000 Because you know.

01:25:51.000 You think.

01:25:52.000 It's pretty obvious that.

01:25:53.000 If you treat people well.

01:25:55.000 If you really think about it.

01:25:56.000 And you're not being.

01:25:57.000 Naively optimistic.

01:25:59.000 And like.

01:26:00.000 You know.

01:26:01.000 A nice.

01:26:02.000 Good person.

01:26:03.000 With all the weakness.

01:26:04.000 That that.

01:26:05.000 That that.

01:26:06.000 That that.

01:26:07.000 That that.

01:26:08.000 Intimates.

01:26:09.000 If you're being.

01:26:10.000 Hard-nosed.

01:26:11.000 And sensible.

01:26:12.000 You understand that.

01:26:13.000 If you.

01:26:14.000 Treat people.

01:26:15.000 If you trust people.

01:26:16.000 That's an act of courage.

01:26:17.000 If you're not naive.

01:26:18.000 Right?

01:26:19.000 If you're naive.

01:26:20.000 It's an act of stupidity.

01:26:21.000 Because you might get bit.

01:26:23.000 And you probably will.

01:26:24.000 And if you're naive.

01:26:25.000 And you get bit.

01:26:26.000 You will suffer for it.

01:26:27.000 It's an act of courage.

01:26:28.000 And that opens up the world.

01:26:29.000 You know.

01:26:30.000 And you might say.

01:26:31.000 Okay.

01:26:32.000 You know.

01:26:33.000 You might say.

01:26:34.000 Okay.

01:26:35.000 You're naive.

01:26:36.000 You might say.

01:26:37.000 Okay.

01:26:38.000 And so.

01:26:39.000 You might say.

01:26:40.000 You might say.

01:26:41.000 And so.

01:26:42.000 There's this idea.

01:26:43.000 in this story.

01:26:44.000 That.

01:26:45.000 You can withstand it.

01:26:46.000 A fair bit.

01:26:47.000 A fair bit.

01:26:48.000 of the catastrophe.

01:26:49.000 Of the catastrophe.

01:26:50.000 of life.

01:26:51.000 And you might say.

01:26:52.000 You might say.

01:26:53.000 You know.

01:26:54.000 And I can certainly see.

01:26:55.000 how the opposite.

01:26:56.000 wouldn't work.

01:26:57.000 You know.

01:26:58.000 if I have to be.

01:26:59.000 absolutely terrified.

01:27:00.000 that you're gonna betray me.

01:27:01.000 at every possible moment.

01:27:02.000 and we're in.

01:27:03.000 in a negotiation.

01:27:04.000 In a negotiation.

01:27:05.000 We're not gonna get into it.

01:27:06.000 We're not gonna get into it.

01:27:07.000 And so.

01:27:08.000 And so.

01:27:09.000 There's this idea.

01:27:10.000 In this story.

01:27:11.000 That.

01:27:12.000 You can withstand it.

01:27:13.000 A fair bit.

01:27:14.000 A fair bit.

01:27:15.000 Of the catastrophe.

01:27:16.000 Of life.

01:27:17.000 By establishing.

01:27:18.000 The proper covenant.

01:27:19.000 And by acting.

01:27:20.000 In a trustworthy manner.

01:27:21.000 And extending your hand.

01:27:22.000 To people.

01:27:23.000 And you might say.

01:27:24.000 What's the opposite.

01:27:25.000 Wouldn't work.

01:27:26.000 Because you know.

01:27:27.000 If I have to be.

01:27:28.000 Absolutely terrified.

01:27:29.000 That you're gonna betray me.

01:27:30.000 At every possible moment.

01:27:31.000 And we're in.

01:27:32.000 In a negotiation.

01:27:33.000 We're not gonna get any work done man.

01:27:34.000 Because I'm gonna be.

01:27:35.000 Figuring out.

01:27:36.000 What you're up to.

01:27:37.000 All the time.

01:27:38.000 And you're gonna be figuring out.

01:27:39.000 What I'm up to.

01:27:40.000 All the time.

01:27:41.000 And we're just not gonna get anywhere.

01:27:42.000 You'll come and say.

01:27:43.000 You're gonna do something.

01:27:44.000 And I can just simplify you.

01:27:45.000 I can say.

01:27:46.000 You're gonna do.

01:27:47.000 What you said you do.

01:27:48.000 I don't have to worry about you.

01:27:49.000 And then the same applies to me.

01:27:50.000 And then we can go do something.

01:27:51.000 And then you might say.

01:27:52.000 Well if.

01:27:53.000 What's the ultimate limit of that.

01:27:55.000 You know.

01:27:56.000 Like.

01:27:57.000 We know that there's corruption.

01:27:58.000 In our society.

01:27:59.000 And that people betray each other.

01:28:00.000 And there's deceit.

01:28:01.000 And all of that.

01:28:02.000 And it.

01:28:03.000 Causes things like.

01:28:04.000 The periodic collapse.

01:28:05.000 In 2008.

01:28:06.000 Which was complicated.

01:28:07.000 But was partly engendered.

01:28:08.000 By corruption.

01:28:09.000 Like.

01:28:10.000 What would be the upside.

01:28:11.000 If we acted.

01:28:12.000 If we really determined.

01:28:13.000 To act honestly.

01:28:14.000 What do you think it is.

01:28:15.000 That people would be able to do.

01:28:16.000 With the world.

01:28:17.000 If we.

01:28:18.000 Stopped acting in a corrupt manner.

01:28:20.000 I mean.

01:28:21.000 What's the.

01:28:22.000 Like.

01:28:23.000 What is the upside.

01:28:24.000 Do you think we could.

01:28:25.000 Could.

01:28:26.000 Could.

01:28:27.000 How far back.

01:28:28.000 Could we push aging.

01:28:29.000 Do you think.

01:28:30.000 If we hit it hard for 50 years.

01:28:31.000 Could we triple our lifespan.

01:28:32.000 It wouldn't surprise me.

01:28:33.000 All these terrible diseases.

01:28:34.000 That beset the planet.

01:28:36.000 We could get rid of them.

01:28:37.000 There's no reason.

01:28:38.000 For hunger and starvation.

01:28:39.000 We make enough food.

01:28:40.000 It's like.

01:28:41.000 What would happen.

01:28:42.000 If we stopped.

01:28:43.000 Acting badly.

01:28:45.000 How much better.

01:28:47.000 Could things get.

01:28:48.000 Well.

01:28:49.000 You start locally.

01:28:50.000 I think.

01:28:51.000 You start with yourself.

01:28:52.000 And you start with your family.

01:28:53.000 But.

01:28:54.000 You know.

01:28:55.000 There's intimations.

01:28:56.000 Of the divine.

01:28:57.000 There's intimations.

01:28:58.000 Of the kingdom of God.

01:28:59.000 It's like.

01:29:00.000 You think.

01:29:01.000 Well.

01:29:02.000 We speak secularly.

01:29:03.000 You think.

01:29:04.000 Well.

01:29:05.000 That's.

01:29:06.000 An unprovable assumption.

01:29:07.000 It's like.

01:29:08.000 Well.

01:29:09.000 We'll just.

01:29:10.000 Hold on a sec.

01:29:11.000 What's the assumption here.

01:29:12.000 Exactly.

01:29:13.000 What is the upper end.

01:29:14.000 For humanity.

01:29:15.000 I mean.

01:29:16.000 Who's.

01:29:17.000 Who's going to say.

01:29:18.000 Right.

01:29:19.000 Who's going to say.

01:29:20.000 Especially in this day and age.

01:29:21.000 Man.

01:29:22.000 There's so many things happening.

01:29:23.000 That you can't even comprehend them.

01:29:24.000 What can we do.

01:29:25.000 If we put all of our effort into it.

01:29:26.000 Well.

01:29:27.000 You can experiment with that.

01:29:28.000 You can make miracles happen.

01:29:29.000 In the confines of your own space.

01:29:31.000 There's no doubt about that.

01:29:32.000 All you have to do is try.

01:29:34.000 You'll see that that happens.

01:29:35.000 It happens.

01:29:36.000 And people are writing to me.

01:29:37.000 And telling me.

01:29:38.000 That they're trying this.

01:29:39.000 And that that's exactly what's happening.

01:29:40.000 And so.

01:29:41.000 So.

01:29:42.000 We don't want to be too cynical.

01:29:43.000 About.

01:29:44.000 About where we might be headed.

01:29:45.000 And Hagar bore Abram a son.

01:29:48.000 Abram called his son's name.

01:29:49.000 Which Hagar bare.

01:29:50.000 Ishmael.

01:29:51.000 Who is by tradition.

01:29:52.000 The forefather of several Arab nations.

01:29:54.000 And of Muhammad himself.

01:29:55.000 And Abram was four score and six years old.

01:29:58.000 When Hagar bare Ishmael to Abram.

01:30:02.000 So that's the end of another story.

01:30:04.000 And then.

01:30:05.000 So that.

01:30:06.000 Section ends.

01:30:07.000 And then again.

01:30:08.000 We have an encounter between.

01:30:09.000 Abraham and God.

01:30:10.000 When Abram was 90 years old.

01:30:12.000 And nine.

01:30:13.000 Ninety-nine years old.

01:30:14.000 The Lord appeared to him and said.

01:30:15.000 I'm the almighty God.

01:30:17.000 Walk before me.

01:30:18.000 And be thou perfect.

01:30:25.000 Alexander McLaren.

01:30:26.000 Who was a.

01:30:27.000 Biblical commentator.

01:30:29.000 Who lived in the.

01:30:30.000 Early 19th century.

01:30:32.000 Said.

01:30:33.000 This phrase.

01:30:34.000 Walking before God.

01:30:35.000 Is not precisely walking with God.

01:30:38.000 Because that's what Noah did.

01:30:39.000 Right?

01:30:40.000 He says.

01:30:41.000 It's rather that of an act of life.

01:30:43.000 Spent in continual consciousness.

01:30:44.000 Of being naked.

01:30:45.000 And opened.

01:30:46.000 Before the eyes of him.

01:30:47.000 To have.

01:30:48.000 Whom we have to give account.

01:30:49.000 I was pretty happy.

01:30:50.000 To stumble across that.

01:30:51.000 Because.

01:30:52.000 I mean.

01:30:53.000 I might have picked and chosen.

01:30:54.000 Of course.

01:30:55.000 You never know that.

01:30:56.000 Whether you do that.

01:30:57.000 But.

01:30:58.000 It does seem in keeping.

01:30:59.000 With the narrative strain.

01:31:00.000 Of the chapter.

01:31:01.000 Right?

01:31:02.000 Because.

01:31:03.000 What we've hypothesized so far.

01:31:04.000 Is that.

01:31:05.000 God has called Abraham.

01:31:06.000 And said.

01:31:07.000 Get out there in the world.

01:31:08.000 You're a stranger.

01:31:09.000 And.

01:31:10.000 Get away from the familiar.

01:31:11.000 Go out to the unknown.

01:31:12.000 Establish yourself.

01:31:13.000 And great things will come of it.

01:31:15.000 Regardless of the.

01:31:16.000 Proximal evidence.

01:31:17.000 Great things will come of it.

01:31:18.000 And so.

01:31:19.000 I think that's what the walking.

01:31:20.000 Before God refers to.

01:31:21.000 It's not like Abraham.

01:31:22.000 Is acting in certainty.

01:31:23.000 There's no certainty here.

01:31:24.000 That.

01:31:25.000 That's the act of.

01:31:26.000 The leap of faith.

01:31:27.000 Even.

01:31:28.000 Because it does require.

01:31:29.000 A leap of faith.

01:31:30.000 For you to move into the world.

01:31:31.000 Because the world is a catastrophe.

01:31:32.000 Self-evidently.

01:31:33.000 The world is a catastrophe.

01:31:34.000 And so.

01:31:35.000 There's.

01:31:36.000 There's.

01:31:37.000 A reason for you.

01:31:38.000 To assume that.

01:31:39.000 You should just sit.

01:31:40.000 In your basement.

01:31:41.000 And hide from it.

01:31:42.000 But.

01:31:43.000 That's.

01:31:44.000 That's not.

01:31:45.000 It doesn't help.

01:31:46.000 It doesn't make things better.

01:31:47.000 And the thing is.

01:31:48.000 Perhaps you're not built for that.

01:31:49.000 You're not built to hide.

01:31:50.000 I don't think that people are built to hide.

01:31:51.000 I think it destroys them.

01:31:52.000 And so.

01:31:53.000 Walking before God.

01:31:54.000 In some sense.

01:31:55.000 Means that Abraham.

01:31:56.000 We could say.

01:31:57.000 Is taking the lead.

01:31:58.000 Out there into the unknown.

01:31:59.000 God says.

01:32:00.000 Well.

01:32:01.000 Great things are going to happen.

01:32:02.000 But he's a little short on details.

01:32:03.000 That's for sure.

01:32:04.000 So.

01:32:05.000 The weight is still on Abraham.

01:32:06.000 And that's a good thing.

01:32:07.000 Because it also.

01:32:08.000 That ennobles Abraham.

01:32:09.000 Right?

01:32:10.000 That's the other thing that's so cool.

01:32:11.000 Is that.

01:32:12.000 If God had just laid out the whole story.

01:32:13.000 And.

01:32:14.000 And you know.

01:32:15.000 Brushed the.

01:32:16.000 The branches from Abraham's path.

01:32:17.000 While he was walking forward.

01:32:18.000 Well then there'd be nothing for Abraham to do.

01:32:20.000 There'd be no nobility in his own pursuit.

01:32:22.000 And.

01:32:23.000 This is another thing that we don't understand very well.

01:32:25.000 It's a really tough thing to understand.

01:32:27.000 Is like.

01:32:28.000 How much trouble.

01:32:29.000 Would you want there not to be?

01:32:32.000 It's a weird question.

01:32:33.000 Right?

01:32:34.000 Because.

01:32:35.000 You want to have something to contend with.

01:32:36.000 You want to have something that.

01:32:37.000 That forces from you the best that you have.

01:32:40.000 And so you have to have real problems.

01:32:41.000 Something like that.

01:32:42.000 Would you dispense with all your real.

01:32:44.000 You could just.

01:32:45.000 Lay down on a bed.

01:32:46.000 And have pablum infused into your mouth.

01:32:48.000 You know.

01:32:49.000 If all your problems were solved.

01:32:51.000 And so.

01:32:52.000 Maybe you want.

01:32:53.000 Difficult problems.

01:32:54.000 That you can solve.

01:32:55.000 Something like that.

01:32:56.000 Because there's some.

01:32:57.000 I don't know what it is about it.

01:32:58.000 There's a.

01:32:59.000 There's the overcoming.

01:33:00.000 And the.

01:33:01.000 And the growth.

01:33:02.000 That comes along with that.

01:33:03.000 There's something about the nobility of the enterprise.

01:33:04.000 You certainly see that when you go about having children.

01:33:06.000 For example.

01:33:07.000 Which is.

01:33:08.000 You know.

01:33:09.000 The psychological.

01:33:10.000 Literature is quite clear.

01:33:11.000 If.

01:33:12.000 If you do moment to moment.

01:33:13.000 Comparisons of.

01:33:14.000 People who have kids.

01:33:15.000 And people who don't have kids.

01:33:16.000 The people who don't have kids.

01:33:17.000 Are happier.

01:33:18.000 And so.

01:33:19.000 Psychologists who.

01:33:20.000 When they make intelligent discoveries.

01:33:21.000 Like that one.

01:33:22.000 Immediately.

01:33:23.000 Some of them.

01:33:24.000 Jump to the conclusion that.

01:33:25.000 Because happiness is the goal.

01:33:27.000 That.

01:33:28.000 Well.

01:33:29.000 There's something about children that.

01:33:30.000 You know.

01:33:31.000 Make you unhappy.

01:33:32.000 And that's not good.

01:33:33.000 Well.

01:33:34.000 Wait a second.

01:33:35.000 Maybe that's the wrong metric.

01:33:36.000 It's like.

01:33:37.000 Of course you're less happy once you have children.

01:33:39.000 Because you have to worry about them.

01:33:40.000 You know.

01:33:41.000 My neighbor down the street.

01:33:42.000 Who's a very smart woman.

01:33:43.000 Said to me once.

01:33:44.000 You can only be as happy as your unhappiest child.

01:33:47.000 And which I thought was really good.

01:33:49.000 You know.

01:33:50.000 That's really smart.

01:33:51.000 But then.

01:33:52.000 It isn't.

01:33:53.000 Well.

01:33:54.000 If having children doesn't make you happy.

01:33:55.000 The answer isn't.

01:33:56.000 Don't have children.

01:33:57.000 Being happy.

01:33:58.000 That's the answer.

01:33:59.000 It's because.

01:34:00.000 There's a nobility in the pursuit.

01:34:01.000 Right.

01:34:02.000 And of course.

01:34:03.000 Now you're responsible.

01:34:04.000 You know.

01:34:05.000 When you have a new baby.

01:34:06.000 You think.

01:34:07.000 Especially if you're a new parent.

01:34:08.000 You think.

01:34:09.000 What the hell is this.

01:34:10.000 And what am I going to do with it.

01:34:11.000 You know.

01:34:12.000 It's like.

01:34:13.000 And then you're.

01:34:14.000 You're done for the rest of your life.

01:34:16.000 You never sleep properly again.

01:34:17.000 Because you're going to be worried about this creature.

01:34:20.000 That you have to take care of.

01:34:21.000 But like.

01:34:22.000 What the hell good are you.

01:34:23.000 If you're not doing that.

01:34:24.000 Or something else equally difficult.

01:34:26.000 You just.

01:34:27.000 You just haven't been called out yet.

01:34:29.000 Unless you take on a responsibility like that.

01:34:32.000 The idea that.

01:34:33.000 Life is.

01:34:34.000 You know.

01:34:35.000 That happiness is the purpose of life.

01:34:36.000 It's like.

01:34:37.000 Great for happiness.

01:34:38.000 Man.

01:34:39.000 If it comes along.

01:34:40.000 You should be.

01:34:41.000 Thrilled that it's visiting you.

01:34:42.000 But the notion that that's.

01:34:43.000 That that's what you should pursue.

01:34:45.000 That's.

01:34:46.000 That's the weakest.

01:34:47.000 Possible notion.

01:34:48.000 First of all.

01:34:49.000 As soon as something terrible happens to you.

01:34:50.000 You're done.

01:34:51.000 It's like.

01:34:52.000 Life is to be happy.

01:34:53.000 It's like.

01:34:54.000 Well now you have cancer.

01:34:55.000 That.

01:34:56.000 How's the happiness thing.

01:34:57.000 Working out for you now.

01:34:58.000 Or maybe it's not you.

01:35:01.000 You know.

01:35:02.000 Maybe it's your father.

01:35:03.000 That has Alzheimer's disease.

01:35:04.000 Or some damn thing.

01:35:05.000 And.

01:35:06.000 You know.

01:35:07.000 It's like.

01:35:08.000 It's a rare person.

01:35:09.000 That doesn't have some catastrophe.

01:35:10.000 One.

01:35:11.000 One person away from them.

01:35:12.000 It's like.

01:35:13.000 Life is to be happy.

01:35:14.000 It's.

01:35:15.000 That's not right.

01:35:16.000 And.

01:35:17.000 We can at least derive that.

01:35:18.000 From these stories.

01:35:19.000 That isn't what they say at all.

01:35:20.000 The stories.

01:35:21.000 To grant.

01:35:22.000 The people.

01:35:23.000 With whom he forms a covenant.

01:35:24.000 Happiness and prosperity.

01:35:25.000 But there's never a word.

01:35:26.000 That that's the purpose.

01:35:27.000 The.

01:35:28.000 The rule is.

01:35:29.000 Aim high.

01:35:30.000 And get your bloody act together.

01:35:31.000 That's the rule.

01:35:32.000 And establish this contractual covenant.

01:35:34.000 With the ultimate ideal.

01:35:35.000 And that will see you through the catastrophes.

01:35:37.000 And that's a much more mature way of looking at life.

01:35:40.000 As far as I'm concerned.

01:35:41.000 Because.

01:35:42.000 All you have to do is have your eyes half open.

01:35:44.000 And you see that.

01:35:45.000 The fundamental reality of life is tragedy and suffering.

01:35:48.000 There's.

01:35:49.000 That's inescapable.

01:35:50.000 The quest.

01:35:51.000 That doesn't mean that it.

01:35:52.000 It makes life.

01:35:53.000 Unbearable.

01:35:54.000 Or that it makes.

01:35:55.000 Being something that shouldn't have existed.

01:35:58.000 Right.

01:35:59.000 That isn't what it means.

01:36:00.000 But it means that you have to contend with it.

01:36:02.000 And you have to get ready.

01:36:03.000 And.

01:36:04.000 The willingness to adopt responsibility.

01:36:06.000 For yourself and for others.

01:36:07.000 Is.

01:36:08.000 Is the precondition for that.

01:36:09.000 And.

01:36:10.000 Maybe if you do that properly.

01:36:11.000 Then now and then you get some happiness.

01:36:13.000 You know.

01:36:14.000 You can sit at the end of the day.

01:36:15.000 And you have half an hour.

01:36:16.000 Where.

01:36:17.000 Your conscience is clear.

01:36:18.000 And there's nothing that you need to be doing.

01:36:20.000 And you can relax and think.

01:36:21.000 You know.

01:36:22.000 That's alright.

01:36:23.000 Things are okay.

01:36:24.000 And thank God for that.

01:36:25.000 And that's.

01:36:26.000 That's maybe where you get your happiness.

01:36:28.000 So.

01:36:30.000 That's something.

01:36:31.000 That's growing up man.

01:36:32.000 Obviously.

01:36:33.000 And to not know that.

01:36:35.000 And to not be taught that.

01:36:36.000 Like everyone should be taught that.

01:36:37.000 It's so obvious.

01:36:39.000 We should be taught that.

01:36:40.000 Well.

01:36:41.000 And that's partly what these biblical stories do.

01:36:44.000 And I'll make my covenant between me and thee.

01:36:46.000 And we'll multiply thee exceedingly.

01:36:48.000 And Abram fell on his face.

01:36:50.000 Yeah.

01:36:51.000 And God talked with him saying.

01:36:53.000 As for me.

01:36:54.000 Behold.

01:36:55.000 My covenant is with thee.

01:36:56.000 And thou shalt be a father of many nations.

01:36:58.000 God says this a lot to Abram.

01:37:00.000 Right?

01:37:01.000 It's almost like he has to remind him now and then.

01:37:02.000 And it's not surprising.

01:37:03.000 Because he keeps going through these.

01:37:05.000 Unbelievable adventures.

01:37:06.000 You know.

01:37:07.000 That are really.

01:37:08.000 Psychologically.

01:37:09.000 And socially shattering.

01:37:10.000 So.

01:37:11.000 It's a good thing that this reminder.

01:37:13.000 Pops up.

01:37:14.000 Fairly frequently.

01:37:15.000 But of course.

01:37:16.000 Abraham is also open to it.

01:37:17.000 And I think.

01:37:18.000 What does it mean?

01:37:19.000 You know.

01:37:20.000 I'll talk personally for a moment.

01:37:23.000 I guess.

01:37:24.000 So I've asked myself a lot of questions in the last eight months man.

01:37:27.000 I can tell you that.

01:37:29.000 And I'm still asking myself a lot of questions.

01:37:31.000 And I've been conferring with a lot of people.

01:37:33.000 Because I had lots of people who were helping me.

01:37:35.000 Negotiate.

01:37:36.000 Whatever the hell this is that's happening.

01:37:38.000 And.

01:37:39.000 You know.

01:37:40.000 I could ask them how I was doing.

01:37:41.000 And they would tell me a bunch of things I was doing wrong.

01:37:43.000 And some things I was doing right.

01:37:44.000 And I could listen to them.

01:37:45.000 And I was asking questions all the time.

01:37:47.000 About how the hell I should manage this.

01:37:49.000 Properly.

01:37:50.000 And.

01:37:51.000 You know.

01:37:52.000 What.

01:37:53.000 What I was trying to do.

01:37:54.000 And what seemed to serve me properly.

01:37:56.000 Was to figure out how to do it correctly.

01:37:59.000 That was the issue.

01:38:00.000 It's like.

01:38:01.000 I didn't really care what happened.

01:38:02.000 And I guess I really don't care what happened.

01:38:04.000 But I do care if I do it correctly.

01:38:06.000 Because I don't want to screw it up.

01:38:08.000 I don't want to screw things up.

01:38:10.000 And that seems to be.

01:38:11.000 A reasonable goal for people.

01:38:13.000 I mean.

01:38:14.000 Wouldn't you like that as a goal.

01:38:15.000 That you don't screw things up.

01:38:16.000 Because you can't control too.

01:38:18.000 You know.

01:38:19.000 Your life isn't.

01:38:20.000 Fully under your control.

01:38:21.000 By any stretch of the imagination.

01:38:22.000 But.

01:38:23.000 It might be nice to.

01:38:24.000 To not have your conscience.

01:38:25.000 Eating at you.

01:38:26.000 Saying.

01:38:27.000 Look.

01:38:28.000 You know.

01:38:29.000 And you mucked it up.

01:38:30.000 Because you're weak.

01:38:31.000 And blind.

01:38:32.000 And you didn't listen.

01:38:34.000 That's no good.

01:38:35.000 The catastrophe is bad enough.

01:38:37.000 As I said.

01:38:38.000 Without you being the bloody source of it.

01:38:40.000 And so.

01:38:41.000 Well.

01:38:42.000 That's Abram falling on his face.

01:38:44.000 I guess.

01:38:45.000 And also communing with God.

01:38:46.000 It's like.

01:38:47.000 You don't.

01:38:48.000 He wants to get it right.

01:38:49.000 He wants to get it right.

01:38:51.000 And there's these things that beckon and promise.

01:38:54.000 But.

01:38:56.000 But it's bloody easy to make a catastrophic mistake.

01:38:59.000 And you'll do that in your life.

01:39:00.000 You know.

01:39:01.000 And.

01:39:02.000 And maybe humility is one of the things that can prevent that.

01:39:05.000 Because you can look and you can think.

01:39:06.000 Okay.

01:39:07.000 What am I doing wrong?

01:39:08.000 What am I doing wrong?

01:39:09.000 What can I do better?

01:39:10.000 How can I do this properly?

01:39:12.000 And then maybe.

01:39:13.000 You know.

01:39:14.000 You get.

01:39:15.000 You get.

01:39:16.000 You get the intimation of the proper way to move forward.

01:39:18.000 And maybe that's what protects you.

01:39:19.000 When things are chaotic and in strife.

01:39:22.000 And who knows what that's worth.

01:39:25.000 Neither shall thy name anymore be called Abram.

01:39:28.000 Which means high king.

01:39:29.000 If I remember correctly.

01:39:31.000 But thy name shall be Abraham.

01:39:32.000 For a father of many nations have I made thee.

01:39:35.000 Oh yes.

01:39:36.000 Abram.

01:39:37.000 High father.

01:39:38.000 Look at that.

01:39:39.000 Abraham means father of a multitude.

01:39:40.000 And I will make thee exceedingly fruitful.

01:39:42.000 And I will make nations of thee.

01:39:44.000 Productive.

01:39:45.000 Right?

01:39:46.000 Productive.

01:39:47.000 And that seems to be something that's good to be.

01:39:48.000 I mean.

01:39:49.000 Like one of the things that I've thought about deeply.

01:39:52.000 I thought deeply about death.

01:39:54.000 And the death of my family members.

01:39:55.000 And about funerals.

01:39:56.000 And I thought about it partly because I had this weird experience once.

01:39:59.000 That I think I told you about.

01:40:00.000 Where I took one of my clients to see an embalming.

01:40:03.000 Which was a very strange experience.

01:40:05.000 And I had a chance to talk to the funeral directors.

01:40:07.000 You know.

01:40:08.000 Because they have weird jobs.

01:40:09.000 You know.

01:40:10.000 And there's this idea.

01:40:11.000 Well.

01:40:12.000 The Freudian idea.

01:40:13.000 That people suffer from this terrible death anxiety.

01:40:15.000 And there's a whole line of social psychological theory.

01:40:18.000 Theorizing called terror management theory.

01:40:20.000 That's predicated on the idea that.

01:40:22.000 We defend ourselves against death anxiety.

01:40:24.000 With our belief systems.

01:40:25.000 And like.

01:40:26.000 It's a pop.

01:40:27.000 It's Ernest Becker's idea.

01:40:28.000 He wrote the denial of death.

01:40:29.000 Which is a great book.

01:40:30.000 But there's a weakness in it.

01:40:31.000 Because you see some people who aren't like that.

01:40:33.000 You know.

01:40:34.000 And palliative care nurses aren't like that.

01:40:35.000 And palliative care nurses aren't like that.

01:40:37.000 And my sister-in-law is a palliative care nurse.

01:40:39.000 That's a hard job.

01:40:41.000 Right.

01:40:42.000 Because you go in there.

01:40:43.000 You're caring for people.

01:40:44.000 You have.

01:40:45.000 And they're in pain.

01:40:46.000 They're on their last legs.

01:40:47.000 You're trying to make them comfortable.

01:40:48.000 And you have a relationship with them.

01:40:49.000 Because how the hell are you going to make them comfortable.

01:40:51.000 If you don't.

01:40:52.000 And then they go and die on you.

01:40:53.000 And that just happens.

01:40:54.000 That's what happens every day.

01:40:55.000 Right.

01:40:56.000 What's weird is that people can be palliative care nurses.

01:40:58.000 It's like.

01:40:59.000 How do you figure that out?

01:41:00.000 Because people can actually thrive in the face of death.

01:41:03.000 Strangely enough.

01:41:04.000 And like these funeral parlor directors.

01:41:06.000 They were interesting to talk to.

01:41:07.000 Because that's all they do.

01:41:08.000 Right.

01:41:09.000 They just deal with.

01:41:10.000 They deal with death and grief all the time.

01:41:13.000 And it was very interesting talking to them.

01:41:15.000 Because I talked to two of them.

01:41:17.000 They found their job extremely meaningful.

01:41:19.000 And I asked them.

01:41:20.000 Well you know.

01:41:21.000 Does that.

01:41:22.000 What does that do to your life?

01:41:23.000 You know.

01:41:24.000 You're saturated with death and suffering.

01:41:25.000 And there.

01:41:26.000 And this is the same answer that I got from the palliative care nurses.

01:41:30.000 That it doesn't undermine your life.

01:41:33.000 It enriches it.

01:41:34.000 Now who would guess that.

01:41:36.000 Right.

01:41:37.000 I mean.

01:41:38.000 What the hell.

01:41:39.000 That just doesn't make any sense at all.

01:41:40.000 But what it does is speak to human possibility.

01:41:42.000 Because God only knows how tough you are.

01:41:44.000 You know.

01:41:45.000 I mean.

01:41:46.000 If you read history.

01:41:47.000 And you read about what people have done.

01:41:48.000 You think.

01:41:49.000 Wow.

01:41:50.000 We're pretty tough.

01:41:51.000 People are.

01:41:52.000 I read.

01:41:53.000 There was a.

01:41:54.000 There was a.

01:41:55.000 Shipwreck in the Antarctica.

01:41:56.000 A hundred years ago or so.

01:41:59.000 And.

01:42:00.000 I read the.

01:42:01.000 The story.

01:42:02.000 It's not a biography.

01:42:04.000 If I remember correctly.

01:42:05.000 Of the.

01:42:06.000 Of the captain.

01:42:07.000 I might be wrong about that.

01:42:08.000 But I've got the basic story right.

01:42:09.000 Well.

01:42:10.000 They had a shipwreck in the Antarctica.

01:42:11.000 It was.

01:42:12.000 And then.

01:42:13.000 They were there for a whole year.

01:42:14.000 In the Antarctica.

01:42:15.000 You know.

01:42:16.000 And none of them died.

01:42:17.000 Not one.

01:42:18.000 He didn't lose a single man.

01:42:19.000 Not one.

01:42:20.000 He kept the morale high.

01:42:21.000 And then they took this boat.

01:42:22.000 That was on the ship.

01:42:23.000 And they crossed like 400 miles.

01:42:25.000 Of the roughest ocean.

01:42:26.000 The roughest frigid ocean.

01:42:28.000 In the world.

01:42:29.000 Right.

01:42:30.000 You don't go in that ocean.

01:42:31.000 And then they went to an island.

01:42:33.000 And they walked across the island.

01:42:35.000 Across these mountains.

01:42:36.000 That no one else has ever.

01:42:37.000 Climbed since.

01:42:39.000 And they went to the city.

01:42:41.000 On the other side of the island.

01:42:42.000 And they got a boat.

01:42:43.000 And they went and rescued.

01:42:44.000 Their compatriots.

01:42:45.000 And everyone survived.

01:42:46.000 It's like.

01:42:47.000 Endurance is the name of the book.

01:42:48.000 You read that book man.

01:42:50.000 You think.

01:42:51.000 Wow.

01:42:52.000 People are really tough.

01:42:53.000 You know.

01:42:54.000 And if.

01:42:55.000 It's ridiculous.

01:42:56.000 So.

01:42:57.000 Who knows how tough you are.

01:42:58.000 And maybe.

01:42:59.000 You find out by going.

01:43:00.000 Out to find out how tough you are.

01:43:01.000 Right.

01:43:02.000 You take on a challenge.

01:43:03.000 One that you think you can master.

01:43:05.000 Just.

01:43:06.000 It's just a bit beyond your grasp.

01:43:08.000 And you master it.

01:43:09.000 And then you're a little tougher.

01:43:10.000 And you think.

01:43:11.000 Hey.

01:43:12.000 That worked out pretty well.

01:43:13.000 And so then you're more of a monster.

01:43:14.000 And then you go out.

01:43:15.000 And you find another challenge.

01:43:16.000 That's even bigger.

01:43:17.000 And you think.

01:43:18.000 Well.

01:43:19.000 Maybe I can do that too.

01:43:20.000 And then all of a sudden you can.

01:43:21.000 And you get a little bit bigger.

01:43:22.000 And.

01:43:23.000 God only knows.

01:43:24.000 What the limit is.

01:43:25.000 Of you.

01:43:26.000 And you find out.

01:43:27.000 By pushing yourself against the world.

01:43:28.000 And of course.

01:43:29.000 That's what Abraham is doing.

01:43:30.000 Well.

01:43:32.000 See.

01:43:33.000 We're very pessimistic.

01:43:34.000 Us modern people.

01:43:35.000 You know.

01:43:36.000 We're pessimistic about.

01:43:37.000 Humanity.

01:43:38.000 That's for sure.

01:43:39.000 Dismal.

01:43:40.000 Wretched.

01:43:41.000 Planet destroying.

01:43:42.000 Cancer on the planet.

01:43:43.000 Right.

01:43:44.000 That's what he described us.

01:43:45.000 So.

01:43:46.000 Pleasantly.

01:43:47.000 Back in the 1960s.

01:43:48.000 You know.

01:43:49.000 And.

01:43:50.000 I don't know.

01:43:51.000 Maybe we're ashamed.

01:43:52.000 Of the cold war.

01:43:53.000 Maybe we're ashamed.

01:43:54.000 Of all the destruction.

01:43:55.000 In the 20th century.

01:43:56.000 And the hydrogen bomb.

01:43:57.000 And the.

01:43:58.000 You know.

01:43:59.000 The continuing catastrophes.

01:44:00.000 Of our societies.

01:44:01.000 And we're deeply ashamed of that.

01:44:02.000 And ashamed of ourselves.

01:44:03.000 Personally.

01:44:04.000 But it's a hell of a thing.

01:44:05.000 To.

01:44:06.000 You know.

01:44:07.000 Call us a cancer.

01:44:08.000 Because what you do with cancer.

01:44:09.000 Is eradicate it.

01:44:10.000 And I don't think.

01:44:11.000 That that's a very noble.

01:44:13.000 Motive.

01:44:14.000 Personally.

01:44:15.000 And I think it says a lot.

01:44:17.000 About the people.

01:44:18.000 Who would use such phraseology.

01:44:19.000 That they would dare to.

01:44:20.000 Conceptualize humanity.

01:44:21.000 In that manner.

01:44:22.000 But you know.

01:44:23.000 It would be nice.

01:44:24.000 If we could be optimistic.

01:44:25.000 And.

01:44:26.000 I think.

01:44:27.000 Again the problem.

01:44:28.000 With being optimistic.

01:44:29.000 Is that it's naive.

01:44:30.000 So then the question is.

01:44:31.000 Is there an optimism.

01:44:32.000 That's not naive.

01:44:33.000 And I think there is.

01:44:34.000 And the optimism.

01:44:35.000 That's not naive.

01:44:36.000 Isn't.

01:44:37.000 A visualization.

01:44:38.000 Of how strong.

01:44:39.000 People can be.

01:44:40.000 So one of the things.

01:44:41.000 That I.

01:44:42.000 I tell.

01:44:43.000 People.

01:44:44.000 I told my students.

01:44:45.000 In my class.

01:44:46.000 In maps of meaning.

01:44:47.000 Here is a goal.

01:44:48.000 You want to be the person.

01:44:50.000 At the funeral.

01:44:51.000 Of your father.

01:44:52.000 That everyone can rely on.

01:44:54.000 How would that be?

01:44:56.000 You want to be the person.

01:44:57.000 Who's broken.

01:44:58.000 And.

01:44:59.000 And useless.

01:45:00.000 And.

01:45:01.000 Adding to the misery.

01:45:02.000 In the corner.

01:45:03.000 And look.

01:45:04.000 I'm not.

01:45:05.000 Making light.

01:45:06.000 You know.

01:45:07.000 I understand grief.

01:45:08.000 But.

01:45:09.000 Who do you want to be.

01:45:10.000 When there's a crisis.

01:45:11.000 Right.

01:45:12.000 Do you want to be the person.

01:45:13.000 That everyone can turn to.

01:45:14.000 For strength.

01:45:15.000 It's like.

01:45:16.000 Why the hell not.

01:45:17.000 Why not that as a goal.

01:45:18.000 That'd be a good goal.

01:45:19.000 Because then.

01:45:20.000 If there's a crisis.

01:45:21.000 And there will be.

01:45:22.000 It won't be such a bloody crisis.

01:45:23.000 Because there'll be someone there.

01:45:24.000 That can deal with it.

01:45:27.000 You know.

01:45:28.000 So when I went.

01:45:29.000 And talked to these people.

01:45:30.000 At the funeral home.

01:45:31.000 I envisioned that.

01:45:32.000 This is something.

01:45:33.000 You have to contend with.

01:45:34.000 If you're going to be.

01:45:35.000 Alive.

01:45:36.000 An adult.

01:45:37.000 You have to contend with.

01:45:38.000 Death.

01:45:39.000 And suffering.

01:45:40.000 And you have to be ready for it.

01:45:41.000 And you have to be there.

01:45:42.000 For the person.

01:45:43.000 Because.

01:45:44.000 That's all they're going to have.

01:45:46.000 And so.

01:45:47.000 There's a goal.

01:45:48.000 Man.

01:45:49.000 And in this time of nihilism.

01:45:50.000 You know.

01:45:51.000 It's.

01:45:52.000 What's the point of life.

01:45:53.000 People ask.

01:45:54.000 And.

01:45:55.000 And they're taught that.

01:45:56.000 At universities.

01:45:57.000 What's the point of life.

01:45:58.000 Interpretation.

01:45:59.000 Humanity's a cancer on the planet.

01:46:01.000 You know.

01:46:02.000 Well how about no.

01:46:03.000 How about not that.

01:46:05.000 How about that there's something to us.

01:46:23.000 And I will establish my covenant.

01:46:24.000 Between me and thee and thy seed.

01:46:25.000 After thee and their generations.

01:46:27.000 For an everlasting covenant.

01:46:28.000 To be a God unto thee.

01:46:29.000 And to thy seed.

01:46:30.000 After thee.

01:46:32.000 And I'll give unto thee.

01:46:33.000 And to thy seed.

01:46:34.000 After thee.

01:46:35.000 The land.

01:46:36.000 Wherein thou art a stranger.

01:46:37.000 All of the land of Canaan.

01:46:38.000 Because of course.

01:46:39.000 Abraham went out into.

01:46:40.000 The land of strangers.

01:46:41.000 Right?

01:46:42.000 But it says that.

01:46:44.000 He'll master.

01:46:45.000 If he.

01:46:46.000 If he keeps his covenant.

01:46:47.000 He'll master the land of strangers.

01:46:49.000 That's a wonderful thing to know.

01:46:51.000 And I think a true thing.

01:46:53.000 You know.

01:46:54.000 Because if you're dealing with strangers.

01:46:55.000 I've dealt with lots of strange people in my life.

01:46:58.000 I'm a clinical psychologist.

01:46:59.000 And that isn't to say that everyone that I've dealt with was strange.

01:47:02.000 Because that's not the case.

01:47:04.000 But.

01:47:05.000 I have encountered some very strange people.

01:47:07.000 And.

01:47:08.000 You know.

01:47:10.000 The way to deal with strange people is to.

01:47:12.000 You never lie to a strange person.

01:47:14.000 That's the thing.

01:47:16.000 Especially if they're paranoid.

01:47:18.000 You never lie to someone who's paranoid.

01:47:20.000 It will come back to bite you.

01:47:22.000 And if you're in an extreme situation.

01:47:24.000 With someone.

01:47:25.000 Who's very unpredictable.

01:47:26.000 The only thing you have.

01:47:28.000 That works.

01:47:29.000 Is the truth.

01:47:30.000 That works.

01:47:34.000 I'll tell you a little story.

01:47:35.000 This is in my book.

01:47:37.000 So I had this landlord in Montreal.

01:47:39.000 He lived next door to me.

01:47:40.000 And he was an ex Hells Angels biker.

01:47:42.000 He'd spent a lot of time in prison.

01:47:44.000 And his wife.

01:47:45.000 Had borderline personality disorder.

01:47:47.000 And she committed suicide when I lived there.

01:47:49.000 And he was a rough guy.

01:47:50.000 And he was a Quebecois.

01:47:52.000 And he spoke Juel.

01:47:53.000 Which I could hardly understand.

01:47:55.000 And.

01:47:56.000 He didn't really know what to make of me.

01:47:58.000 And I didn't really know what to make of him.

01:48:00.000 But we got along.

01:48:02.000 You know.

01:48:03.000 And I was very careful talking to him.

01:48:05.000 As you might imagine.

01:48:07.000 But.

01:48:08.000 But I was.

01:48:09.000 It was very.

01:48:10.000 And we went over.

01:48:11.000 My wife and I went over there.

01:48:12.000 And we had spaghetti dinner one night.

01:48:13.000 And.

01:48:14.000 We sort of communicated.

01:48:15.000 And I bought a poster from him.

01:48:16.000 Because he made these wooden posters.

01:48:17.000 That had neon on them.

01:48:18.000 And.

01:48:19.000 That's how he made a living.

01:48:20.000 He'd kind of trained himself.

01:48:21.000 To be a bit of an electronics guy.

01:48:22.000 And.

01:48:23.000 So he made these things.

01:48:24.000 And he was trying to quit drinking.

01:48:25.000 And we talked about that.

01:48:26.000 He was a lot older than me.

01:48:27.000 He was like 20 years older than me.

01:48:28.000 I was about 25 at this point.

01:48:30.000 And.

01:48:31.000 We got along pretty well.

01:48:33.000 But.

01:48:34.000 Every now and then.

01:48:35.000 He'd go out and get.

01:48:36.000 And drink.

01:48:37.000 And he could really drink.

01:48:38.000 You know.

01:48:39.000 Like he was one of these guys.

01:48:40.000 Who could drink like 60 beer.

01:48:41.000 And you think.

01:48:42.000 Well no one can drink that much.

01:48:43.000 And you're wrong.

01:48:44.000 I studied alcohol for like 10 years.

01:48:46.000 Some of my.

01:48:47.000 Subjects.

01:48:48.000 Fathers drank 40 ounces of vodka a day.

01:48:50.000 And had been doing it for 20 years.

01:48:52.000 So you can drink a lot.

01:48:53.000 And he could drink a lot.

01:48:54.000 And what would happen.

01:48:55.000 He was trying to not drink.

01:48:56.000 But he'd go out and go on a binge.

01:48:57.000 And then.

01:48:58.000 He'd be gone for like 3 days.

01:48:59.000 And.

01:49:00.000 He'd.

01:49:01.000 Drink up all his money.

01:49:02.000 And then.

01:49:03.000 We'd hear him out in the backyard.

01:49:05.000 Howling at the moon.

01:49:06.000 With this little.

01:49:07.000 Little ugly dog he had.

01:49:08.000 You know.

01:49:09.000 And.

01:49:10.000 He'd howl.

01:49:11.000 And the dog would howl.

01:49:12.000 And he'd howl.

01:49:13.000 And the dog would howl.

01:49:14.000 And.

01:49:15.000 And it was rather unsettling.

01:49:16.000 And.

01:49:17.000 Made my wife nervous.

01:49:18.000 And.

01:49:19.000 And.

01:49:20.000 But worse.

01:49:21.000 You know.

01:49:22.000 Now and then.

01:49:23.000 He'd come to the door.

01:49:24.000 At like 3 in the morning.

01:49:25.000 Eh.

01:49:26.000 And he'd knock on the door.

01:49:27.000 And he'd.

01:49:28.000 Be standing there.

01:49:29.000 And.

01:49:30.000 I don't know.

01:49:31.000 How much experience.

01:49:32.000 You've had.

01:49:33.000 With rough guys.

01:49:34.000 Who are alcoholic.

01:49:35.000 And who are drunk.

01:49:36.000 But.

01:49:37.000 It's.

01:49:38.000 They can be.

01:49:39.000 Upright.

01:49:40.000 And.

01:49:41.000 Unconscious.

01:49:42.000 At the same time.

01:49:43.000 And so that was the state.

01:49:44.000 That he was in.

01:49:45.000 You know.

01:49:46.000 He'd be just.

01:49:47.000 Swaying.

01:49:48.000 And he'd ask me.

01:49:49.000 If I would like to buy his toaster.

01:49:50.000 Or his microwave.

01:49:51.000 Because.

01:49:52.000 He needed some money.

01:49:53.000 To keep drinking.

01:49:54.000 And you know.

01:49:55.000 I didn't really want to buy his toaster.

01:49:56.000 Or his microwave.

01:49:57.000 But when.

01:49:58.000 The actual.

01:49:59.000 Jewel speaking.

01:50:00.000 60 beer drunk.

01:50:02.000 Quebecois biker.

01:50:03.000 Shows up at your door.

01:50:04.000 At 3 in the morning.

01:50:05.000 And offers you to sell.

01:50:06.000 Offers to sell you.

01:50:07.000 His microwave.

01:50:08.000 Ha.

01:50:09.000 The easiest thing is to say.

01:50:11.000 I really need a microwave.

01:50:12.000 Ha.

01:50:13.000 Ha.

01:50:14.000 Ha.

01:50:15.000 Ha.

01:50:16.000 So.

01:50:17.000 Ha.

01:50:18.000 So you know.

01:50:19.000 I bought.

01:50:20.000 The microwave.

01:50:21.000 And.

01:50:22.000 Ha.

01:50:23.000 Ha.

01:50:24.000 Ha.

01:50:25.000 Ha.

01:50:26.000 Ha.

01:50:27.000 And a little baby even before.

01:50:28.000 And when my wife talked to me.

01:50:29.000 And she liked.

01:50:30.000 My.

01:50:31.000 My landlord.

01:50:32.000 Even though she was afraid of him.

01:50:33.000 And she liked him.

01:50:34.000 And.

01:50:35.000 She said.

01:50:36.000 You can't buy any more.

01:50:37.000 Any more appliances.

01:50:39.000 Because it's not good for him.

01:50:40.000 And I thought.

01:50:41.000 Ha.

01:50:42.000 Ha.

01:50:43.000 That's an interesting problem.

01:50:45.000 Ha.

01:50:46.000 Ha.

01:50:47.000 Ha.

01:50:48.000 Ha.

01:50:49.000 Ha.

01:50:50.000 want to buy your microwave just doesn't seem to be the right answer at three in the morning.

01:50:54.080 So, so one time he took me out on his 750 Honda and he put me on the back of it. He wanted to

01:51:02.060 show me his lair, I guess, his hangouts. And I got his wife's helmet on, but it didn't fit. It

01:51:06.580 just sit on the top of my head. And he said, I got on the bike and he said, if the cops chase us,

01:51:13.760 we're not stopping. And then, and then away we went. And we went to these, like, these bars

01:51:20.400 downtown on Saint Laurent. They were very rough places. And he got into like four fights that

01:51:24.700 night because he was a rough guy, you know, and these kind of punk guys would come up to him and

01:51:30.000 sort of challenge him and act stupidly around him. And he was very skeptical. And if you were acting

01:51:34.320 stupidly around him for any length of time, he just hid you because he felt that that's what you

01:51:38.880 deserved. And perhaps he was right, you know. So, so I had a firsthand opportunity to observe him.

01:51:45.660 So anyways, he, sure enough, about a week or two after we had this conversation, he showed up at

01:51:51.460 the door. Knock, knock, knock, you know. Opened the door and he was standing there, you know, with his

01:51:55.900 eyes kind of half closed. And he was swaying. And he had, I don't remember what the appliance was

01:52:01.440 this time, but he wanted to sell it to me. And I said, I'm not, Paul, I can't buy this.

01:52:09.680 I'm not going to buy this because I know you're trying to quit drinking. And if I give you this

01:52:14.500 money, then you're going to go and drink it up. And it's not going to be good for you. And

01:52:18.680 what else did I tell him? I think I told him as well that this whole thing of him coming to my house

01:52:26.740 at like two in the morning was scaring my wife, who he liked, and that it had to stop. And believe me,

01:52:32.020 man, I was thinking about what I was saying. Because he was watching me like a rough guy watches you.

01:52:38.880 And a rough guy watches you like this. He thinks, if you say one thing that indicates

01:52:45.120 contempt, you're going to bloody well pay for it. And so I was finding my words like, you know,

01:52:52.140 I was crossing a swamp and trying to look for the rocks underneath the surface. And I said what I

01:52:58.300 had to say very, very carefully. And he looked at me for about 15 seconds. And that's a long time

01:53:04.560 to be looked at, at three in the morning. And he left. And he never came back to sell me anything

01:53:12.780 again. And we got along fine. But that's a good illustration of this issue with regards to

01:53:20.640 truth and success in the strange land. Because I was in the strange land when I was talking to

01:53:28.500 my neighbor, my landlord. And I managed to say what was true carefully enough. So despite the fact

01:53:38.540 that he was a very violent person, and that he was a very intoxicated person, and that he had every

01:53:45.160 reason to be suspicious of me, and we couldn't communicate very well, and I didn't do what he

01:53:50.080 wanted. That he took it, and he left, and there was no problem, and life went on just fine after that.

01:54:00.520 And so, we don't want to underestimate the utility of establishing this bounded relationship with the

01:54:08.900 ideal, and attempting to live with some nobility, in truth, while aiming at the highest ideal.

01:54:16.120 There's nothing about that that's anything but strengthening and positive. And it's exactly what you need

01:54:26.560 to set against the catastrophe and uncertainty of life. And as far as I can tell, that's what these

01:54:35.020 Abrahamic stories are attempting to communicate. So we'll stop there. Thank you.

01:54:42.660 I was quite impressed with your presentation last week, and I wasn't quite

01:55:08.520 sure where it was going at one point. Neither was I.

01:55:13.120 And that's okay, because at one point, I listened, and I thought, what you basically were talking

01:55:17.540 about, this is what I saw, you were embodying mind, body, and spirit, and bringing it all

01:55:21.920 together as one. And you touch on it a bit tonight when you talk about truth. This is where we need to

01:55:26.780 go, right? And I know you say be positive and all that, and yeah, that's right. I agree. It's scary

01:55:31.700 what's going on right now. However, we have the power to stay in the positive. What you talked about

01:55:36.700 last week, you talked about using our intuition, which I consider our higher self, using

01:55:41.120 consciousness, and you made reference, I can't remember exactly what you said, but you held

01:55:47.040 your hand, and you talked about emotions, and bringing intellect on top. And when you said

01:55:53.660 emotions, everything just lit up for me, because I'm thinking that's our heart chakra, that's

01:55:58.020 what combines our lower self, our physical being, the material stuff, all the stuff that doesn't

01:56:03.700 really motivate us with our higher self. And when you talked about emotion, I wanted to

01:56:08.120 talk about the emotion of love. And I find so many people are terrified. It's a four-letter

01:56:12.560 word, I know, but it doesn't have to be bad.

01:56:15.040 Okay, so I remember why, when I talked to you last week, why I wanted you to ask this question.

01:56:20.120 So, okay, so I've talked a lot in this lecture series about truth. And, you know, I think there's

01:56:27.720 a battle in the biblical stories, all the way through, between love and truth, in terms of

01:56:32.360 their primacy. And so, and I've concentrated a lot on truth in my own thinking. But I, and it's

01:56:38.280 hard to talk about love, because it's a word that people have mouth to death. You know, as soon as you

01:56:42.500 start talking about love, then people should just go into a different room, and not listen to you,

01:56:47.020 you know, because it gets, it can get sappy and new agey, just like that. And I don't like that at

01:56:53.140 all. But, but it still has something that has to be contended with. And I think, so I've been

01:56:59.300 trying to conceptualize, let's say, what this covenant might, might constitute. And I think

01:57:04.040 the love part, so here's this. So, you know, there's this book by Goethe called Faust, and it's in two

01:57:11.140 volumes, Faust 1 and Faust 2, logically enough. One was written much later than the other. And Faust

01:57:17.600 basically sells his soul to the devil for, for knowledge. And the devil in Faust is Mephistopheles.

01:57:24.240 And Mephistopheles is quite a well-developed character. And Goethe has Mephistopheles say

01:57:29.400 what he's about, which is really quite cool. So it's like the adversary of the world, evil

01:57:35.840 itself, gets a chance to speak and make its case. And Goethe thought this was so important

01:57:40.560 that he actually had Mephistopheles announce himself once in Faust 1, and then using the same

01:57:46.360 words, you know, phrased differently, again in part two. And it really struck me, it really

01:57:51.840 struck me. And so what Mephistopheles says is that the world is such a charterhouse of suffering

01:58:01.360 and destruction that it would be better if it never existed. And so that what he's working

01:58:06.380 to is to bring existence to an end, because it is not justified by its suffering. It's like

01:58:13.800 that's, it's an argument very similar to the argument that's made by Ivan Kameratsov. Thank

01:58:23.020 you. Russians, eh? You can't pronounce them or live with them. You can't. But he basically,

01:58:29.960 he's an atheist and does a very good job of detailing out the atheist argument, or maybe

01:58:34.520 an anti-theist argument. And he's arguing with his brother Alyosha, who's a monastic novitiate,

01:58:41.400 who's a very good guy, but not an intellect. Ivan's an intellect and a very powerful one. And he

01:58:45.940 basically tells Alyosha that the, all of the cosmos isn't worth the suffering of one child. He tells

01:58:52.740 this story about this, and this, Dostoevsky took this from a newspaper, about this parents that locked

01:58:58.580 their four-year-old daughter in an outhouse overnight, and she screamed about it until she froze to death.

01:59:04.280 And so Dostoevsky used that argument. He tied that into Ivan's anti-theist argument against

01:59:09.880 Alyosha. It's a very, very powerful argument. The Brothers Karamazov is an absolutely mind-boggling,

01:59:15.960 amazing book. I would highly recommend it. And so that's the Mephistophelian perspective.

01:59:22.620 Mephistophelian perspective is that being itself is so corrupt that it shouldn't exist.

01:59:27.220 So then you think, okay, well that, fair enough, that's a decent argument, it's understandable. But

01:59:34.120 the problem comes when you try to implement that. And what happens when you implement it,

01:59:38.640 as far as I can tell, you adopt that Mephistophelian attitude of bitterness and resentment and

01:59:43.280 destruction, is that you make all the suffering that you're complaining about far worse. And I think

01:59:47.740 that's what happened at the base of things in the 20th century, is that there was a powerful

01:59:52.700 movement among humanity to bring being itself to a halt. You know, what culminated in the development

01:59:59.440 of the hydrogen bomb. And the high probability for many, at many periods of time, that we were going to

02:00:05.960 do something permanent and fatal. Which seems like a bad idea. It seems like a bad idea. Well,

02:00:11.620 so what's the opposite of the Mephistophelian attitude? And I think the opposite of that is what's

02:00:17.080 presented in the biblical stories in the guise of love. And that is the wish that things would be

02:00:25.320 good. It's something like that. That's what love is, I think, is that it's the attempt to orient

02:00:30.060 yourself towards making things better. And it's predicated on something like a deep appreciation

02:00:35.980 for being, despite its suffering and deficiencies. And maybe a decision that you're going to act

02:00:42.160 to bring about things, to move things towards the good. And I think that's the thing that sets the

02:00:48.480 parameters of the aim. It's the opposite of the Mephistophelian attitude. It's like

02:00:53.100 to work towards the betterment of being, because you've decided that you're going to open your heart

02:00:58.460 to existence, something like that. And it's within that framework that truth takes place. I think,

02:01:04.340 because truth has to serve something. It can serve truth, but it has to be bounded inside something.

02:01:09.820 And I think that that's what it's bounded inside. What I was going to refer to with that was David

02:01:16.080 Hawkins wrote Power Versus Force. And he put it on a quantifiable scale, all different emotions. He

02:01:21.160 called it consciousness. And he put love at 528 hertz. He put shame at 20. I'm not sure if I've got these

02:01:27.020 100% right. Guilt, I think, at 30. Fear at 50. And it shows you how far the people who are really

02:01:33.260 knocked down have to get to love. And I'm thinking if we could quantify love on a term, it means different

02:01:39.040 things to everybody, and rightly so. But can we get to that frequency? And if you look at the

02:01:43.700 serfegia notes, you know the musical notes? Have you heard of them?

02:01:46.760 I'm afraid I'm going to ask you to stop, if you would, because I should go to another question.

02:01:51.940 Thank you. Thank you very much. Okay. Let's...

02:01:55.660 So you've been an educator through the rise of the smartphone. And my question basically relates

02:02:08.380 to procrastination and task delay, needless task delay specifically. And given the unprecedented

02:02:15.600 level of distraction that we have in today's world, I just wanted to get your perspective

02:02:20.660 from a psychological standpoint on other than cleaning your damn room, what would you suggest

02:02:26.320 to a student who's looking to overcome these things?

02:02:32.060 Well, I think with any, let's call it addictive process. I mean, email is powerfully addictive,

02:02:39.200 right? Partly, it's a slot machine. And I mean that technically. So when you pull, that's a variable

02:02:44.980 ratio reinforcement schedule, if I remember correctly. And it's very addictive, because

02:02:50.640 if you pull on the slot machine arm enough, you will win. And you never know which pull will reward you.

02:02:59.780 And so not only is that addictive, it's very hard to extinguish that. And so, email's like that,

02:03:06.860 because there's always something beckoning, and now and then it's a jackpot. And social media is

02:03:11.780 like that, because, you know, people are posting interesting things. And so, well, how do you overcome

02:03:18.100 an addictive process? And partly, you do it by replacing it with something better, right? So,

02:03:24.740 when people study drug and alcohol use, they often make an elementary mistake, which is to try to figure

02:03:31.080 out why people use drugs and alcohol. That's not a smart thing to wonder. We know why people use

02:03:38.860 cocaine. Cocaine directly stimulates the systems that produce positive emotion. It's like, so there's

02:03:46.700 no mystery there. The mystery with cocaine is very, very simple. Why don't people take cocaine all the

02:03:52.040 time until they die? That's the mystery, really. Because you can get isolated rats to do that. So,

02:03:57.380 and for some people, alcohol has the same kind of effect, except it's mediated by opiates.

02:04:03.520 But often, what people have to do to get themselves out of an addictive process is to find something

02:04:08.260 better to do to replace it. And so, I would say, the problem with the gadgets, and I mean,

02:04:13.980 they're amazing things, is that they interfere with, they approximately interfere with medium to long-term

02:04:21.720 goals, I would say. And so, I think the first thing you have to do to bring them under control is

02:04:26.440 figure out what it is that their use is interfering with. It has to be something important. So, you

02:04:31.220 think, well, I want to do something important. Well, what is that? Well, it could be personal. Maybe

02:04:36.640 you want to have a relationship. You want to get married. You want to have kids. You want to have

02:04:40.780 a career that's meaningful. You know, you want to have a life. You want to have an Abrahamic adventure

02:04:45.760 and be the father of nations, let's say. Well, you can't be ratting away on your cell phone and doing

02:04:50.360 that. And so, I think part of it is to set your sights high and make a plan and figure out who you

02:04:58.780 could be and see if obsessive utilization of smartphone fits into that vision of nobility.

02:05:06.920 And it will partly because they're unbelievably powerful communication devices. But so often,

02:05:12.320 it's for lack of something better to do. And it also interferes. So, that's about the best I can do with that.

02:05:28.100 Hello, Dr. Peterson. So, you've been talking with some of the conservative candidates for leadership

02:05:35.540 this year. I know you talked with most all of them, right?

02:05:38.460 Not all of them, but a number of them, yes.

02:05:40.860 You talked with Andrew, though, right?

02:05:42.540 Yes, I did.

02:05:43.280 Yeah. So, something very interesting popped up in my Facebook feed. So, it was an ad for the

02:05:49.740 conservative party. And it was suggesting that we cut funding to public universities that don't

02:05:58.720 support free speech.

02:06:00.180 Yeah, that was probably my fault.

02:06:01.780 Yeah. See, precisely. Because this is something you say in some of your wilder moments,

02:06:07.640 you suggest that we should cut the university's funding by 25% and let them battle it out for

02:06:13.200 the remains. And he's taken that to, you know, his platform. But now what you're doing is,

02:06:20.560 well, one of the things you're doing is you've created this website that identifies the postmodern

02:06:26.760 lexicon and helps people distinguish between postmodern courses and not. And so, people don't

02:06:33.480 take them.

02:06:34.540 Or take them if they want.

02:06:36.500 Yeah. Yeah. So, that's... It'd be interesting to know, like, what sort of malevolent postmodernists

02:06:42.640 just study you meticulously and try to use all your knowledge of it. Anyway. So, but what you've

02:06:51.220 said, though, you said that what we need to do is starve it out from the source.

02:06:54.840 Yeah. Okay. So, I... Yeah. That... Look. So, when... Yeah, I do. I know where you're going. So,

02:07:00.480 about two weeks ago, three weeks ago, I went up to northern Saskatchewan. My parents have a cottage

02:07:05.000 up there. It's way the hell out in the middle of nowhere. And, uh, there's no cell phone. Although

02:07:09.640 we do have internet now, which is, you know, probably bad and good. But anyways, I got to take

02:07:14.760 a bit of a break, which was good because I haven't really been able to think. Because, you know,

02:07:19.780 more broadly about, say, what I'm doing. Because who the hell... I don't know what the hell I'm

02:07:23.780 doing exactly. This is a... This is all very strange. And... But... But one thing I thought

02:07:30.300 about. I was out on the lake. I was canoeing around. And I thought... I'd thought about war.

02:07:35.980 You know, because I was very irritated. I'm very irritated about what's happened to the

02:07:41.100 universities. And there's a hint of malevolence about it. And I... I'm not a fan of ideological

02:07:47.300 possession. And... I've been set back up on my heels a lot over the last eight months

02:07:54.320 by the... the onslaught of what emerged when I said that there was words I wouldn't

02:08:01.760 say. And so, it's put me into a defensive posture, let's say. And I had been thinking

02:08:09.320 in terms of war metaphors, you know. Like... This is a battleground. And that there's a war

02:08:16.640 going on. An ideological war. And I do believe that that's true. But... Then... I was reading...

02:08:24.780 And I... I did this partly for this course. I was reading the Sermon on the Mount. And one

02:08:28.860 of the things it says is, resist not evil. And I don't know what to make of that line. And

02:08:35.280 so, I was talking to a bunch of people about it. And reading about it a lot. And trying

02:08:39.360 to figure out what it meant. And partly what it means is, don't waste time. Right? Because

02:08:44.540 when you're fighting against something, then there's something else you're not doing. And

02:08:48.360 then I thought... Also, when I was out there on the lake, I thought, well, do I really want

02:08:51.340 to be in a war? Because war, that's not... That's not... That's not... That's not heaven.

02:08:58.660 That's for sure. It's really stressful. And people get hurt. And so, I thought, well,

02:09:03.620 maybe that's just the wrong way of thinking about it. Even though there's a battleground

02:09:07.100 issue here. And... I thought, well, wait a second. Maybe... Maybe the right thing to do in

02:09:13.620 a situation like this... And this is maybe something that those on the alt-right might consider.

02:09:19.040 Is that... The right thing to do, maybe, is to outline a better way. Rather than go out directly

02:09:27.680 on the attack. Now, that might seem somewhat at odds with my idea of the website. And perhaps

02:09:33.440 it is somewhat at odds with that. I'm... I'm not sure about that. But what I'm trying

02:09:37.700 to do, instead of conducting this like a war, let's say, is to conduct it like a movement

02:09:44.840 towards something better. And that would be better. Now, with regards to cutting the university's

02:09:50.600 funding, I thought about that, too. And I thought, wait a second. That's not going to

02:09:53.780 work out. Because it's inviting political interference into higher education. Now, the political

02:09:59.580 interference might be of the counter-balancing kind. Because the evidence that the humanities,

02:10:03.840 in particular, have tilted almost a hundred percent to the left is overwhelming. And so,

02:10:08.960 maybe some counterbalance from the right would set things more towards the middle. But the

02:10:13.700 problem is, is when you open up the door to political interference with higher education

02:10:18.840 content, you can't close the door again. And so, on reflection, I thought that it probably

02:10:25.380 was a sub-optimal idea. And that would be better instead, was to... And this is what

02:10:30.620 I want to do when I launch the website. I want to ask students, the students who will be using

02:10:34.540 it. It's like, what do you want from university? Because here's your options. You can come out

02:10:39.140 ideologically possessed. Right? You can buy this doctrine, this pathological doctrine. And

02:10:45.980 you can become bitter and resentful. And you won't learn to communicate properly. And you

02:10:50.220 won't read the great works of civilization. And you won't learn to think and write. You won't become

02:10:55.960 noble in body and spirit. Is that what you want? Or do you want the opposite? Do you want a real

02:11:03.380 education? And then I want to explain what that means, like I did tonight, to some degree. You know,

02:11:07.980 that there's absolute value in learning how to put yourself together and to communicate and to

02:11:12.500 familiarize yourself with the classic works of civilization. And I want to offer that. I want to do

02:11:18.900 what I can to offer that as the proper alternative, instead of staying ensconced in this notion

02:11:24.640 of a battle, which is just... I just don't think it's the right metaphor. So...

02:11:29.660 Either. And Dr. Peterson, I just want to say that I think what you're doing is absolutely miraculous.

02:11:34.320 It's helped change my life. And I'm sure at least... Raise your hand if Dr. Peterson's helped

02:11:38.580 change your life.

02:11:41.100 So, for the better or for the worse?

02:11:44.800 Ask him to. Look at it.

02:11:45.900 Well, it's about 40 people, maybe. And that's miraculous, you know. And I think... And your

02:11:51.580 thinking is going to be... It's going to be all over the place in the Canadian election

02:11:57.140 in two years. And I think that...

02:11:58.480 God, that's a horrible thing to contemplate.

02:12:01.020 You better watch out for it, buddy. And you need... And there's going to be a lot of talk

02:12:07.440 about how... How... How Andrew Scheer's political message is going to stem from yours. And I think

02:12:16.220 it's really important that he... He doesn't censor himself like other conservative politicians

02:12:21.500 are doing.

02:12:22.120 Yes.

02:12:22.520 And because... I don't know. We need to unite under a valid, thoughtful, articulate, conservative

02:12:31.360 voice. And what do we have now? We have... We have Trump. That's what's... You know, we don't

02:12:36.800 have any... We don't have any strong, articulate male voices in our political discourse right

02:12:44.100 now. That's what it feels like.

02:12:44.940 Well, it's definitely time for you to develop one. So, it looks like you're on the right path.

02:12:50.460 Thank you.

02:12:51.460 Thank you.

02:12:52.460 Hello.

02:12:53.460 Hello, Dr. Peterson. Thank you for everything you've done this past year. And I do mean everything,

02:13:00.460 the political stuff, this lecture series.

02:13:03.460 I'm going to get you to move just to... Yes. Great. Belt it out, man.

02:13:07.460 Okay. So, I'll try to be succinct. I have two comments and one question.

02:13:11.460 Okay.

02:13:12.460 My first comment is you mentioned how you were prevented from uploading your YouTube video

02:13:15.460 from last week.

02:13:16.460 Yeah.

02:13:17.460 I actually attended that lecture and I make pretty detailed notes. So, if you want, maybe

02:13:20.460 I can email you...

02:13:21.460 Yeah.

02:13:22.460 It's okay. I've got it. It's... My account's reinstalled, reinstored, reinstored?

02:13:27.460 Ha, ha, ha. Restored. Yeah. And so, it's okay. It's okay. It's straightened out. And I'm

02:13:32.460 going to upload all the videos to a bunch of other sites. And so, this isn't going to happen

02:13:36.460 again. So, but I appreciate that.

02:13:38.460 Because I'll actually miss some lectures and I do want to look at them online.

02:13:41.460 Okay. Yeah.

02:13:42.460 My second comment is about sort of kind of going into the commentaries of Christian theologists

02:13:47.460 over the centuries, like you've done yourself. I just would like to encourage everybody to

02:13:53.460 also look at not just Western Christianity, but also Eastern Christianity, like the Orthodox writings.

02:13:59.460 There's a big difference between the two in that the Western sort of theology comes out

02:14:04.460 of the Roman law, Roman justice. So, there's a lot more of an emphasis on kind of justice

02:14:10.460 and Christ came... He died on the cross for our sins. So, there's that kind of like legal

02:14:15.460 payback, if you know what I mean.

02:14:17.460 Right.

02:14:18.460 Whereas the Eastern theology is a lot more... It focuses a lot more on love and on sort

02:14:26.460 of the positive aspects. And if you do read like the first four centuries of Christianity

02:14:31.460 where there was no schism, there's very little mention of like a sort of legalistic framework.

02:14:37.460 It's a lot more, I don't know, a prosaic or more heartfelt, I guess. So, I think it's

02:14:42.460 important that we also, in the West, look at the Eastern counterpart. Especially more so

02:14:48.460 now because I do perceive a lot of fake love as being at the center of this malevolence that

02:14:54.460 you mentioned. So, like, you know, this whole thing about demonizing the opposition, saying

02:14:59.460 that they're heartless, they have no love, this and that. I perceive that as a lot of

02:15:03.460 fake love. And I think that we have to keep in mind what true love is. Sometimes it looks

02:15:08.460 ugly. Like in dealing with psychiatric patients, maybe like other countries are not as liberal

02:15:13.460 as Canada, but they get results a lot more often. You know, there's as many psychiatric patients

02:15:18.460 on the road, for example, in Greece, where I'm from. So, yeah, that was kind of my comment,

02:15:24.460 that we need to focus a lot more on what real love is, I think, and not just the kind of love

02:15:29.460 that you can put on a scale. Because I don't think that you can put love on a scale.

02:15:32.460 So, I've been talking, as some of you know, to this guy, Jonathan Pajot, who's an Orthodox

02:15:37.460 Carver. And he started a YouTube channel. And he's talking a lot about Orthodox issues. And I'm

02:15:42.460 pretty ignorant when it comes to Orthodox Christianity. But from what I understand of

02:15:48.460 it so far, there's plenty to be learned. So, yeah.

02:15:52.460 I'm Orthodox myself. I just recently came back to my faith two years ago. Basically,

02:15:57.460 that was the original Christianity. Then there was a schism of 1054 between East and West

02:16:03.460 because of the conflicts that the Eastern Christians have with the Pope. And then after

02:16:09.460 that you also had the schism internally within the West between Catholicism and the Protestants.

02:16:14.460 So, that's kind of like the big difference. Christianity actually came from the East. So,

02:16:19.460 I think that's why it's important that we look at the most ancient texts because those were

02:16:22.460 the ones that were closest to the original message. So, that's my question.

02:16:30.460 It's about atheism. You might hear a lot of times people criticizing anybody that has any sort

02:16:35.460 of belief in a deity or a God that you're just somebody that has an imaginary friend.

02:16:41.460 Yeah.

02:16:42.460 You know, like the Heavenly Father that you have to adhere to, that you have no will of your own.

02:16:48.460 Yeah.

02:16:49.460 So, then there's also, like, wouldn't the counter argument be that, okay, so if I have a good

02:16:54.460 relationship with my father and that's why I'm more likely to accept a higher deity, then could it be that you as an atheist,

02:17:00.460 maybe you have conflict with your father and that's why you're adverse to kind of submitting to a higher being that

02:17:10.460 that kind of dictates your life.

02:17:12.460 Well, you're attempting a psychoanalysis of atheism, you know, and there's many factors that go into atheism.

02:17:22.460 I would say that you could make that case in some situations, but not in all.

02:17:28.460 I do think, though, and I think this is perhaps where your question is stemming from, is that

02:17:34.460 it's no fluke that, at the same time, that

02:17:42.460 one of the consequences of the death of God that Nietzsche announced back in the late 1800s

02:17:47.460 is the all-out assault on masculinity that's occurring in our culture now.

02:17:52.460 And those things are associated.

02:17:55.460 And I do think that does have to do with a lack of faith in the masculine spirit.

02:18:00.460 And that's a very bad thing because, well, it's a bad thing for everyone, obviously,

02:18:05.460 because women have a partially masculine spirit and they have to put up with men.

02:18:11.460 And so, to demolish that, or to fail to nurture it, which is certainly what's occurring,

02:18:17.460 is just a pathway to absolute disaster.

02:18:21.460 So, yeah.

02:18:23.460 Thank you so much.

02:18:29.460 Hi, Peter. So, this is the type of question that you hate

02:18:32.460 because it's in the category of why you believe what you believe.

02:18:35.460 And it's a type of question that makes you say, if I have it right from the last time,

02:18:40.460 quote, what the hell makes you think it's any of your business?

02:18:42.460 So, I'm going to try to frame it properly.

02:18:45.460 Okay.

02:18:46.460 And I'm asking this at lecture ten of twelve,

02:18:48.460 and after having listened to quite a few hours of you here and elsewhere.

02:18:51.460 Okay.

02:18:52.460 And so, in your second interview with Transliminal Media, you lay out a few things.

02:18:55.460 I have some quotes here. I'll skip them for brevity.

02:18:57.460 You get to the point where you're discussing the embodiment of the Logos by Christ as a historical figure.

02:19:03.460 And then you say, quote, is his resurrection real? Did his body resurrect? I don't know.

02:19:10.460 In today's lecture, you alluded to the fact that there are states of consciousness

02:19:14.460 that perhaps we don't know how to access anymore.

02:19:16.460 And let's say that I'm with you.

02:19:18.460 Let's say I'm with the idea that there are unknown ways to get intimations of the divine,

02:19:22.460 that the embodiment of the Logos is associated with physiological transformations,

02:19:27.460 the upper limits of which are unknown and that we might currently classify as paranormal.

02:19:31.460 But to dumb it right back down to my level,

02:19:34.460 I'm asking about the guy commonly depicted with long hair nailed to a cross until dead as a doorknob.

02:19:39.460 And all of this goes to the heart of the question of literalism and religious interpretation.

02:19:44.460 It goes to the heart of kind of, you know, what we're doing here at this lecture series.

02:19:47.460 Are we examining the psychological significance of these stories,

02:19:50.460 or are we entertaining the possibility of these fantastical events?

02:19:53.460 I might be struggling with the concept, but I haven't been able to square away and reconcile those statements by you.

02:19:59.460 So the question is, on the question of the resurrection of Christ,

02:20:02.460 why is your answer to your own question, I don't know, instead of at the very least, probably not?

02:20:08.460 Well, you're definitely right about me hating that question.

02:20:16.460 Well, I call this series the psychological significance of the biblical stories for a reason, you know.

02:20:30.460 And the reason was that I'm partially qualified to talk about such things.

02:20:38.460 When I step outside of that, then I'm not where I should be.

02:20:47.460 I don't think that...

02:20:54.460 See, I don't think that this is...

02:20:56.460 I'm not going to get this right. I can't get the words exactly right.

02:20:59.460 This isn't about what I believe personally.

02:21:02.460 It's partly because I don't know what I believe.

02:21:05.460 I don't know what I believe.

02:21:07.460 The world's a very strange place. I've had some very strange experiences in it.

02:21:11.460 I don't think it's helpful for me to step outside my jurisdiction and speculate precisely.

02:21:20.460 The easiest thing would be to say...

02:21:27.460 I think I said what I had to say today.

02:21:29.460 I don't think that we know what the upper limits of human possibility are.

02:21:33.460 I don't know what that means metaphysically.

02:21:36.460 What I do understand from the Gospels is that even the accounts of Christ's resurrection are complex and difficult to understand.

02:21:46.460 I think, from reading Jung, in large part, that you can make a very strong case for the symbolic meaning of the death and resurrection.

02:21:54.460 I think it does stand for the capacity of the human logos to die and resurrect continually as it strives upward.

02:22:03.460 I'm not willing to say that that's all it means, because I don't know what everything means.

02:22:09.460 And I don't know about the fundamental metaphysics of being.

02:22:13.460 Like, I do believe that it's accurate to construe being as a battleground between good and evil.

02:22:19.460 I believe that.

02:22:20.460 I believe that is the most accurate way of representing being.

02:22:24.460 It's not the most accurate way of representing the objective world.

02:22:27.460 That's not the same thing.

02:22:29.460 Being is that set of experiences which we inhabit.

02:22:33.460 And that's only partly objective.

02:22:35.460 And it's not obviously reducible to the material.

02:22:38.460 Not in any straightforward way.

02:22:40.460 Because we don't understand the material substrate of being at all.

02:22:43.460 You know, it's...

02:22:45.460 And when we do attempt to understand it, say, at the quantum level,

02:22:48.460 we run into mysteries that baffle the most intelligent of us and aware.

02:22:55.460 So, I'm going to have to leave the question hanging.

02:22:58.460 But partly because...

02:22:59.460 Partly because I don't know what I think.

02:23:02.460 But partly because...

02:23:04.460 There has to be a line between what I believe and what...

02:23:09.460 What I can communicate.

02:23:11.460 You know, what you believe is beyond your capacity to articulate.

02:23:15.460 If you...

02:23:16.460 The most...

02:23:17.460 At the deepest levels of belief.

02:23:18.460 And I can only share with you what I have actually come to understand.

02:23:23.460 And there's things that I don't understand.

02:23:25.460 And that's definitely one of them.

02:23:27.460 I don't know how to draw a line between the symbolic significance of the biblical events, say.

02:23:33.460 The symbolic and psychological significance of the biblical events.

02:23:36.460 And the metaphysics that's underneath them.

02:23:39.460 And I think you see the same thing in Jung.

02:23:41.460 Because when Jung writes technically and formally, he never talks about God.

02:23:45.460 He always talks about the image of God.

02:23:47.460 Which is not the same thing.

02:23:49.460 The image of God would be your subjective experience of God.

02:23:52.460 It says nothing about the objective reality of God.

02:23:55.460 Because your subjective experience can't say much about objective reality.

02:23:58.460 But even in Jung, you get this mix, you know.

02:24:01.460 Sometimes it's psychological.

02:24:02.460 But then he...

02:24:03.460 He makes a metaphysical move.

02:24:05.460 And I think that reflected also his...

02:24:07.460 The limits of his knowledge.

02:24:09.460 Because Jung had profound revelatory experiences.

02:24:12.460 He was a very strange person.

02:24:13.460 You know, and...

02:24:15.460 I think...

02:24:19.460 So I think what's best for me is to stay on the ground that I'm competent on.

02:24:24.460 And to say what I can say about the psychology.

02:24:27.460 And to reach beyond that briefly when it's necessary.

02:24:31.460 But other than that, to leave it the hell alone till I understand it better.

02:24:35.460 Assuming that I ever do.

02:24:37.460 So...

02:24:38.460 Thank you.

02:24:47.460 So, because of these lectures, I've been reading the Bible and...

02:24:51.460 Well, I'm obviously not finished, but I'm fairly familiar with how it goes.

02:24:55.460 And I've been thinking about two parts of it in specific.

02:24:58.460 Which is the story of Isaac and the crucifixion of Christ.

02:25:02.460 And particularly one of the things that Christ says on the cross.

02:25:06.460 Which is, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

02:25:09.460 And I've been trying to understand that, because that's one hell of a thing for the Son of God to say.

02:25:13.460 And you think that would have been edited out?

02:25:16.460 Yeah.

02:25:17.460 No, seriously.

02:25:18.460 It's like, why isn't that gone?

02:25:20.460 You know, it's very inconvenient.

02:25:23.460 Yeah.

02:25:24.460 And in...

02:25:25.460 Well, you haven't touched on the story of Isaac yet.

02:25:28.460 But there's this thing called typology, which I'm sure you're aware of.

02:25:32.460 But basically the idea that what's going on in the Old Testament is sort of the laying out of types for Christ.

02:25:37.460 And that Isaac is essentially a type of Christ because they have all these similarities.

02:25:41.460 And so I've been thinking about it in that context and thinking about the parallels between them, between Isaac and Christ.

02:25:50.460 And one of the things that also struck me was mostly the differences between Isaac and Christ.

02:25:54.460 And the main difference, it seems to me, is sort of a difference in direction of sacrifice.

02:25:58.460 So the sacrifices of Abraham is Abraham sacrificing his son to God.

02:26:03.460 And then the sacrifice of Jesus is God sacrificing his son to mankind.

02:26:08.460 And I've been trying to understand basically how that works.

02:26:12.460 And in relation to the...

02:26:14.460 You and Western civilization for 2,000 years.

02:26:17.460 Yeah.

02:26:18.460 Well, there is these transformations of sacrifice, right?

02:26:21.460 So the next thing that happens in these stories is that the circumcision, circumcision starts to come in as a sacrifice.

02:26:30.460 And it seems to be something like the beginnings of replacement for sacrifice of animals.

02:26:35.460 You know, there's this psychologization of sacrifice.

02:26:39.460 So first it's pure external and acted out, and then it becomes something that's more conceptual.

02:26:44.460 Like it becomes embodied in the form of the circumcision, and then it becomes more conceptual.

02:26:48.460 And that conceptual transformation keeps occurring.

02:26:51.460 And it seems to...

02:26:53.460 Well, it culminates to some degree in this idea of the sacrifice of Christ, who's God sacrificing his son to mankind.

02:27:01.460 But the sacrifice is much more complex than that, right?

02:27:03.460 It's also Christ sacrificing himself to God.

02:27:07.460 And I think that the issue there is something like...

02:27:12.460 Well, let's say you're supposed to offer up the best that you have to God.

02:27:16.460 That's the sacrifice.

02:27:17.460 That's what happens with the high-quality animals that able sacrifices.

02:27:22.460 Okay, but there's something better than the best that you own.

02:27:25.460 Well, what's that?

02:27:27.460 Well, part of it might be, well, the relationships you have with people.

02:27:32.460 Are you willing to sacrifice them to pursue the highest good?

02:27:35.460 Well, then are you willing to sacrifice yourself or your son?

02:27:39.460 Like your son might be...

02:27:43.460 That's a tough one.

02:27:44.460 I can understand the idea of sacrificing yourself better.

02:27:47.460 I'm still wrestling with this story of Isaac, obviously, because that's such a complicated story.

02:27:51.460 And I do think it's reasonable to think about it as a form of foreshadowing.

02:27:54.460 At least the way the Bible is set up.

02:27:56.460 Of course, people who aren't Christian wouldn't agree with that, but that's fine.

02:28:01.460 The idea that you would offer yourself as a sacrifice to God,

02:28:04.460 that seems to me to follow quite logically because,

02:28:07.460 well, obviously you have nothing greater to give than the best of yourself, right?

02:28:12.460 So you sacrifice yourself to the highest good,

02:28:14.460 and that's part of the way in which humanity is redeemed.

02:28:18.460 That makes sense to me.

02:28:20.460 That just seems like, for me, that's a pretty straightforward psychological truth.

02:28:25.460 The son issue, that's a lot tougher thing to wrestle with because...

02:28:30.460 One of the things I was thinking with what Jesus says on the cross,

02:28:35.460 is that one of the interpretations of that is basically that Jesus in that moment is human, basically.

02:28:41.460 It's not the...

02:28:43.460 Right.

02:28:44.460 It's just Jesus the human.

02:28:45.460 Right.

02:28:46.460 But that always kind of felt a little bit like avoiding the question to me

02:28:51.460 because you can't just posit something like the Trinity and then say,

02:28:54.460 oh, but in this moment that doesn't go, right?

02:28:57.460 That doesn't count.

02:28:58.460 So, but if we think about it in that way of like the difference in the direction of sacrifice,

02:29:05.460 and it seems to me that in the sacrifice, whoever is making the sacrifice sort of aims toward something.

02:29:11.460 So Abraham is sort of reaching for the divine when he sacrifices,

02:29:15.460 when he's going to sacrifice his son.

02:29:17.460 And so that would mean maybe God is reaching toward the human.

02:29:22.460 And so that would make some sense of that interpretation that Christ is only human in that moment, right?

02:29:27.460 That it's the sacrifice is accomplished and the reaching down is accomplished.

02:29:32.460 But I'm still left to the question, what do I make of that?

02:29:36.460 Because that's one interesting...

02:29:39.460 Well, I mean, it's useful to have a problem like that because it gives you something to think about, right?

02:29:44.460 And something to study further.

02:29:45.460 And it's a major problem.

02:29:48.460 I mean, the whole issue of...

02:29:50.460 Well, we could say, well, what's the relationship between the divine and the human,

02:29:54.460 which is obviously brought to the forefront in the idea of Christ, right?

02:29:57.460 But it's a personal issue because part of the issue is,

02:30:00.460 what's the relationship between you as a finite entity and the transcendent infinity that surrounds you?

02:30:07.460 Well, there's some relationship because here you are and the transcendent infinity around you exists.

02:30:13.460 So there's a relationship.

02:30:15.460 The question is, what is the relationship?

02:30:17.460 And we don't know that.

02:30:19.460 And it's dramatized in that story.

02:30:22.460 And so, I mean, partly the reason that there's so much conflict and confusion in that story is because it's trying to bring opposing things together, right?

02:30:33.460 How can something be God and man at the same time?

02:30:36.460 It's just like the genie, which is the root word of genius, by the way.

02:30:40.460 The genie is this incredibly powerful force that can grant wishes, right?

02:30:46.460 But it's constrained in this tiny little space.

02:30:48.460 There's an intimation there that, for something to be real, it has to straddle the divide between the finite and the infinite.

02:30:56.460 And that's what human beings do, I think, to some degree.

02:30:59.460 And that's dramatized in that story, but it doesn't mean that we understand it.

02:31:03.460 I mean, you know that sometimes you're going to feel that way when you're called upon to make a sacrifice.

02:31:09.460 You're going to feel that you've been betrayed by everything.

02:31:12.460 I mean, the story's set up that way, right?

02:31:14.460 Christ is betrayed by tyranny.

02:31:16.460 He's betrayed by his best friends.

02:31:17.460 He's betrayed by his mortality.

02:31:20.460 Like, that's why it's an archetypal story.

02:31:22.460 And he's innocent, so the story can't be any worse.

02:31:25.460 That's why it's archetypal.

02:31:27.460 And, I mean, the story says, to some degree, that under such conditions, even God himself would have doubts.

02:31:34.460 It's something like that.

02:31:36.460 And that's a real, that's a powerful idea.

02:31:39.460 It's a very powerful idea.

02:31:41.460 So, that's the best I can make out of that, for now.

02:31:44.460 We have to stop.

02:31:54.460 So, we'll convene again in a week.

02:31:58.460 Thank you very much.

02:32:01.460 If you found this conversation meaningful, you might think about picking up Dad's books, Maps of Meaning, The Architecture of Belief,

02:32:07.460 or his newer bestseller, 12 Rules for Life and Antidote to Chaos.

02:32:11.460 Both of these works delve much deeper into the topics covered in the Jordan B. Peterson podcast.

02:32:16.460 See jordanbpeterson.com for audio, e-book, and text links, or pick up the books at your favorite bookseller.

02:32:22.460 Remember to check out jordanbpeterson.com slash personality for information on his new course, which is now 50% off.

02:32:29.460 I hope you enjoyed this podcast.

02:32:31.460 If you did, please let a friend know or leave a review.

02:32:34.460 Next week's episode is a continuation of the Biblical series and is titled Sodom and Gomorrah.

02:32:40.460 Talk to you next week.

02:32:42.460 Follow me on my YouTube channel, Jordan B. Peterson.

02:32:45.460 On Twitter, at Jordan B. Peterson.

02:32:48.460 On Facebook, at Dr. Jordan B. Peterson.

02:32:51.460 And at Instagram, at jordan.b.peterson.

02:32:54.460 Details on this show, access to my blog, information about my tour dates and other events,

02:33:01.460 and my list of recommended books, can be found on my website, jordanbpeterson.com.

02:33:07.460 My online writing programs, designed to help people straighten out their pasts, understand themselves in the present,

02:33:14.460 and develop a sophisticated vision and strategy for the future, can be found at selfauthoring.com.

02:33:20.460 That's selfauthoring.com.

02:33:23.460 From the Westwood One Podcast Network.

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The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - June 14, 2020

Biblical Series： Abraham A Father of Nations

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