The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - Chris Voss with Jordan and Mikhaila Peterson

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00:00:51.060 Welcome to Season 3, Episode 39 of the Jordan B. Peterson Podcast. I'm Michaela Peterson,

00:00:59.880 Jordan's daughter. This is a very recent interview with Chris Voss. The video version of the podcast

00:01:05.500 is available on my YouTube channel. I originally invited Chris Voss onto my podcast, but Dad wanted

00:01:10.900 to join, and obviously I was thrilled with that opportunity. I love podcasting with Dad. So if you

00:01:16.300 want the video format, type in Chris Voss, Jordan Peterson on YouTube, and I'm sure the video will pop

00:01:21.340 up. Chris Voss is an American businessman, author, and the CEO of the Black Swan Group, which teaches

00:01:28.080 people how to negotiate. He co-authored Never Split the Difference, a book on how to negotiate, and a book

00:01:33.900 on his experience as an FBI negotiator. This episode is brought to you by Skillshare. Skillshare is an online

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00:03:09.640 Very pleased to have with us today, us being Caleb Peterson and Jordan Peterson. Chris Voss,

00:03:30.640 who's currently CEO of Black Swan Consulting, was formerly the FBI's talk,

00:03:37.100 international kidnapping negotiator, and is the author of Never Split the Difference,

00:03:46.040 a book offering to teach its readers the fine art of successful negotiation. Thanks very much for

00:03:53.620 joining us today, Chris. I enjoyed your book a lot, and I'm looking forward to your stories.

00:03:59.040 Yeah, thank you. It's my pleasure. It's awesome to be on with you guys.

00:04:01.820 Much appreciated. I'm interested in negotiation because I'm a clinical psychologist, and

00:04:10.380 a lot of what clinical psychologists do is negotiate with their clients for behavioral change,

00:04:17.080 but also teach their clients to negotiate successfully with the people around them to get what they want.

00:04:22.900 So negotiation is a very underdeveloped skill in most people. So I'm wondering

00:04:30.280 how you came to develop an interest in them, and we'll go from there.

00:04:37.780 Well, let me quote the great, I'd say quote the great actor Rocky Balboa. I couldn't sing a dance.

00:04:44.180 I was, you know, I was, with the FBI, I was a SWAT guy. I had to get out of SWAT because of recurring

00:04:51.560 injuries, but I want to stay in crisis response, and so, you know, we had hostage negotiators. I knew

00:04:57.300 they were around. I didn't know what they'd do. It didn't seem that hard, right? You know, I could,

00:05:01.340 I could talk to terrorists is what I thought. Got into it. It was fantastic. It was, you know,

00:05:07.880 I had to, had to sort of fight my way in, not really fight my way in. I had to work to get in.

00:05:13.520 I was eminently unqualified before I became a negotiator, but my first step was to volunteer

00:05:18.640 on a suicide hotline, and, you know, the opportunity to influence people in short periods

00:05:24.220 of time blew me away in really counterintuitive methods, and one thing led to another. I taught

00:05:32.180 negotiation at Harvard and collaborated on a book with some people and been teaching negotiation

00:05:37.300 ever since. It's just been, it's phenomenal. It's great to have a positive impact, I'm sure,

00:05:42.140 as you feel, you know, you have a, you have the opportunity to have a positive impact on people.

00:05:46.220 It's enormously satisfying.

00:05:49.120 So why, what made you think that the skills that you had picked up as a negotiator in these

00:05:54.560 crisis situations would be applicable to people in their day-to-day concerns?

00:06:01.180 Yeah, you know, great question. I mean, I suspected early on, when I was volunteering on

00:06:07.240 the hotline, like, is this just people in crisis, or is it just people? And I started using the

00:06:14.260 skills in my day-to-day life, you know, and it impacted all my relationships and made me a better

00:06:19.560 hostage negotiator. And when I first started collaborating with Harvard, and they invited

00:06:26.100 me to come and attend the law school's negotiation course, instructors up there were teaching and were

00:06:32.800 saying, like, look, man, you're doing the same thing we're doing. The stakes are different,

00:06:37.580 but the dynamics are absolutely the same. And that was, you know, what was sort of their blessing

00:06:43.600 and their understanding ended up teaching there later. But the dynamics are same. It's human behavior,

00:06:49.680 regardless of what the circumstances are, we're wired in certain ways. And as human beings,

00:06:55.000 we all have the same wiring, as you know. So, I'm going to get into some of your, what would you

00:07:03.840 call, tactical strategies, I guess. And speaking of the clinical connection, when I was reading your

00:07:09.080 book, the first thing that came to mind is that the techniques in general sounded very much like

00:07:14.880 those that were put forth by Carl Rogers to ensure successful clinical transformation. And lo and

00:07:21.980 behold, about halfway through the book, you make direct reference to Carl Rogers. And he was a great,

00:07:28.080 well, he was really the formalizer, I think, of the idea of the act of listening and reflection,

00:07:34.420 particularly the idea that you should put yourself in the shoes of the other person,

00:07:39.880 but also to ensure that you're hearing them properly, you should repeat what they said back

00:07:46.840 to them in paraphrased manner, and see if you actually got the gist of their conversation.

00:07:51.980 So, to some degree, you concentrate on that, I guess, in the section,

00:07:58.200 well, it's not so much labeling, statement mirroring, I guess, is your term. We could pause.

00:08:06.780 Well, you know, there's a couple. I mean, we've really sort of

00:08:09.660 really defined all the different skills in real specific detail. And that was one of the things that

00:08:15.300 the Harvard guys said to me, because we're on the same path, but FBI, we're a little bit further

00:08:20.700 down it. And they said, you know, we're both talking about the same skills. You've defined

00:08:25.240 them with much more clarity. Because principally, in law enforcement, you know, cops, FBI agents,

00:08:32.460 you know, we want specifics on how to do something, and then we'll take it and we'll road test it. So,

00:08:37.060 mirroring versus labeling, we would call two different things. And even the different types

00:08:41.760 of labels. And, you know, we take, we take what we learned, what the world learned, we collected

00:08:46.900 many kinds of psychology, and we added neuroscience. We started trying to hit very specific parts of

00:08:52.220 the brain to create very specific reactions. So, yeah, mirroring, I would define mirroring as

00:08:58.920 repeating the last one to three words of what someone just said, or selected one to three words.

00:09:04.120 Versus labeling, I'm looking for emotional nuances, dynamics.

00:09:07.920 Well, one of the things that struck me with labeling is that, you know, people might respond

00:09:14.460 positively to that. We should, I'll let you define it momentarily, but people should respond

00:09:19.780 positively to that. Because it's often the case that when people are in a discussion or negotiating,

00:09:25.740 that they don't actually know what they're bringing to the table or what they want. And so,

00:09:30.460 if they're floundering about in a somewhat emotion-ridden and stressed manner, and you put

00:09:39.520 your finger on what it is that they're trying to say, then you're actually articulating something

00:09:44.620 for them that's still only being processed at the level of bodily response. And people find that a

00:09:50.640 great relief, if you can do it accurately, because you've summed up a very complicated set of

00:09:57.000 physiological disturbances with a single utterance and kind of enable them to see the pathway forward.

00:10:05.820 Yeah, no, absolutely. And you can even, it doesn't even have to be that accurate, you know,

00:10:10.560 which is the thing that neurosciences taught us, you know, oxytocin, dopamine, depend upon

00:10:15.760 what neurochemical is being hit. I mean, when you're inaccurate, and they correct you,

00:10:22.180 they actually get a hit of dopamine, which they love. I mean, people hate being corrected,

00:10:27.560 but they love to correct. It's a great way to create a bond that the other person doesn't even

00:10:31.020 know is being built. Well, and if you're incorrect, and you're labeling at least the person then has

00:10:35.880 something they can object to that's concrete. You talk about that a bit, right? The importance of

00:10:41.220 getting somebody to say no. That was interesting. Like, is it possible to describe that a little bit?

00:10:46.680 Yeah, no is one of the craziest words. And we, you know, hearing it, we're taught when we're little,

00:10:54.860 you know, what's the first word every child learns? No. Yeah, they love that word. Yeah.

00:11:00.420 Yeah, they get hammered with it over and over again. So we're conditioned that when we hear we've done

00:11:04.860 something wrong. But at the same time, we're conditioned when we say it, we've protected ourselves.

00:11:09.520 So if I get you to say no, you feel protected, you're going to want to talk, you're going to feel

00:11:16.340 good about the interaction, you're not going to feel threatened, you're more likely to open up.

00:11:20.720 I mean, even something as little as nobody in my company says to anybody, have you got a few minutes

00:11:26.560 to talk? It's always is now a bad time to talk. Complete change in the other side's reaction.

00:11:31.980 Right. And so you say instead, is this a bad time to talk? Right? Yeah, right. Or even like,

00:11:41.760 I won't say, is this a good idea? I'll say, is this a dumb idea? And you probably go like, no,

00:11:48.080 it's not a dumb idea. But here are the following problems. Here's what we got to do. I mean,

00:11:51.580 it's a complete change in reaction. Yeah, well, you know, if you watch two year olds with no,

00:11:55.680 because they really latch on to that word, it's really remarkable. And the reason for that is that

00:12:01.580 it enables them to protect themselves against being hijacked by other people, right? It's actually

00:12:07.700 the word that defines the boundary between them and the world and enables them to have some

00:12:13.060 autonomy. It's amazing. I remember I babysat a little kid at one point, or maybe it was my

00:12:18.500 old son. It might have been Julian. No, I think it was a kid I was babysitting. He was an unbelievably

00:12:22.940 stubborn little kid. And I was trying to get him to do something just to interact with me. And I

00:12:29.800 offered him a bunch of different enticements. I mean, you as a psychologist is having trouble

00:12:37.020 getting a two year old to cooperate? Well, this was a particularly, this was a particularly

00:12:40.820 stubborn little two year old, but he, he took note. Is there a bloodline connection? Is that

00:12:46.120 why it was? No, no, no. This was, this was truly, this was truly the neighbor's child, actually. But he

00:12:51.100 was willing to say no to M&Ms and ice cream, which was, he caught himself when he noticed that he had

00:12:57.800 said it. But the no was such an attractive proposition to him that he was willing to

00:13:03.160 forgo even basic immediate rewards, just for the thrill of being able to maintain that autonomy.

00:13:09.160 Yeah. So we should go through your technique, let's say, your techniques and with some order. So I'm

00:13:16.480 going to read a couple and maybe you could just describe what, what, what you mean by them. So you

00:13:22.800 have tactical empathy, for example. Yeah, sure. I mean, we're trying to take, first of all, the point

00:13:29.860 of calling it that was taking it out of today's common usage of empathy is sympathy or, or even

00:13:38.200 compassion. Now, I would argue that I would, I would offer that empathy is a very compassionate

00:13:43.440 thing to do. But going back to the real reason I first started collaborating with Harvard, you know,

00:13:49.780 they said empathy is not agreement. It's not sympathy. It's not even liking the other side.

00:13:54.280 It's just completely understanding. The basis on from Rogers in psychology, the stuff that anybody

00:14:00.960 that's pursued this is studying. Now let's add in neuroscience, tactically, tactically, we know that

00:14:07.580 the amygdala is kind of the crossroads of all our thoughts. And it's wired to be negative, 75% negative.

00:14:15.320 And tactically, we know that simply identifying a negative diminishes it, not denying it, identifying

00:14:21.860 it. You think I'm a jerk. And I don't think you're that much of a jerk. By saying that you've

00:14:27.640 diminished it in the other side. So let's just put a tactical application to our empathy, knowing that

00:14:33.060 the negative emotions are, have four times the impact or at least on people's thinking. So let's

00:14:40.380 approach and come in through a different door. And it's tactical because, well, this is something

00:14:46.260 that needs to be clarified too, is that when you're negotiating, what is it that you're striving to

00:14:52.440 attain? Do you think it's, and if it's a win, you know, people conceptualize that the success of a

00:14:58.360 negotiation in different ways. It could be you win, which means you get what you want. It could be

00:15:04.040 win-win, in which case both people get what they want. You can go beyond that because you could say

00:15:09.000 that in a really successful negotiation, people even discover new things they didn't know they

00:15:13.800 wanted and they get those too. So, you know, tactical towards what end? If you had a philosophy of

00:15:23.180 negotiation, what might that be? You know, the philosophy is great collaboration, which requires

00:15:30.480 long-term relationships. And ideally, every deal kicks stuff out that you didn't expect

00:15:38.800 that delighted you, which is going to addict you to want to continue to deal with me. Great

00:15:45.400 long-term relationship. If every deal we're in, you're delighted, you can't wait to do another one.

00:15:51.900 Right. So that's absolutely crucial because it puts within a real moral framework, right? Because

00:15:56.120 otherwise you could learn to negotiate for psychopathic reasons, which would be

00:16:00.300 only short-term interests of yourself. But if you put it in a framework where you're trying to set

00:16:06.880 yourself up to play repeatedly with the same person or with a whole variety of different people,

00:16:12.340 then an ethic automatically enters into it. Right. Your reputation precedes you. I mean,

00:16:18.100 you get a reputation for doing nothing but good for people. People line up to do business with you.

00:16:23.320 Right. Exactly. And reputation is actually the marker for your utility as a long-term partner.

00:16:29.320 Yeah. Yep. How did that work with specifically FBI negotiations? I mean, if you're dealing with

00:16:36.760 somebody like a hostage taker, how does that end up being a win for them?

00:16:41.460 Yeah. Well, first of all, the crazy thing is hostage negotiators have reputational concerns.

00:16:47.080 You know, we have repeat customers. And even if the guy that we're dealing with, even if he goes to

00:16:54.760 jail number comes out, how we handle them is going to get into the media. So reputation is an immediate

00:17:00.720 concern. And, you know, people are so driven by where it's taking them in the long run. I mean,

00:17:08.620 if somebody has a vision of the future, no matter how far down the line that vision is,

00:17:14.440 that's a good thing. Now we've got something to talk about. And, you know, my first response with a

00:17:19.980 bank robber is really going to be, sounds like you want to survive. Of course they do. Otherwise,

00:17:28.800 they'd have come out and gotten shot already. Now we'll get something to talk about.

00:17:34.200 How do you deal with the people who don't want to survive?

00:17:38.360 You can pick that up pretty quickly. You know, you're going to know right off the bat,

00:17:42.720 if you're there to hear it. And the analogy in the business world, not everybody wants to do the

00:17:48.520 deal with you. Maybe they want to exploit you. Maybe they want to take advantage of you. Maybe

00:17:52.040 they see it as a one-off. Maybe they're playing you for a fool. You've got to pick that up in your

00:17:58.120 everyday negotiations as well. And you'll hear it if you're open to hearing it. It's avoiding

00:18:05.880 preconceived notions is what really shuts you down. Being too focused on a goal gives you

00:18:11.880 tunnel vision. Well, I really like the repeated game analogy. You know, that one of the things I've

00:18:24.320 lectured about is that you tell your children it isn't important whether they win or lose. It's

00:18:29.080 important how they play the game. You do. But you do. Yeah. But you don't necessarily understand what

00:18:35.680 that means, why you're telling your child that. And they might say, well, it's obviously important

00:18:39.900 that I win. So I don't know what you're telling me. But the goal of proper play is to be invited to

00:18:46.720 play as many games as possible, not to win that particular game, even though you also want to win

00:18:51.220 that game. So you lay out this ethic, which is to make yourself the best collaborator, the most

00:18:57.040 desirable possible collaborator across the longest term with the largest number of people. And then you

00:19:02.820 can put these techniques to use without them being cold, harsh techniques of manipulation.

00:19:13.100 Yeah. And I was going to say, the big difference between manipulation and influence is really

00:19:17.680 where are you taking me? Manipulation is when I'm trying to hurt you. Influence is when I'm trying

00:19:22.860 to help you. Same set of skills, but where are you coming from? Where are you trying to go?

00:19:25.960 Right. Right. And with most business relationships, people get cynical about this, but most business

00:19:33.220 relationships are, in fact, relationships. You know, I was really struck by this. It's even more

00:19:38.620 so in the business world than it is in the academic world. Because in the academic world, you put forward

00:19:44.440 a claim, and at least in the more scientifically oriented field, the validity of your claim is dependent

00:19:50.960 on the degree to which you follow proper scientific procedure. So there's an objective way of assessing

00:19:58.720 your ability. But in business, it's a lot softer than that in some manner, because the measurement

00:20:06.840 techniques for assessing the other person's ability aren't so clearly there. And so relationship

00:20:11.720 becomes crucial. And it's very interesting to me to understand negotiation as the skill that makes

00:20:26.660 capitalism intensely human. Because it brings it under this, under the necessity of, it shows

00:20:38.040 how tightly associated successful business development is with playing the game with other

00:20:44.320 people properly. And that helps you avoid cynicism about the entire process, I would say.

00:20:51.880 Yeah, no, I agree completely. I mean, our co-author, I mean, a book was written between myself,

00:20:57.520 my son, Brandon, and Atal Raz. Atal is a brilliant dude. I mean, I would read anything,

00:21:03.320 any business book that he's written. I don't know that I'd read any of his poetry,

00:21:06.820 but I'd read his business books. And one of the things that he pointed out to us is by definition

00:21:11.800 as a species, the only ones of us that survived were the ones that collaborated. We're hardwired

00:21:17.860 to collaborate. So if you increase your collaboration skills, more people are going to want to do business

00:21:23.140 with you. And to your point, it's not always that measurable in an immediate number. It may be a

00:21:31.140 secondary or tertiary benefit, but you become wealthy by being a great collaborator.

00:21:37.440 Is there any difference between negotiating across the board with women versus men?

00:21:46.420 Wow, that's a loaded question.

00:21:48.020 That's for sure.

00:21:48.700 I didn't mean that.

00:21:49.440 I just...

00:21:50.420 We're going to get into differences between men and women. I would love to do that because

00:21:55.200 women pick this style of negotiation up faster than the men do. Now at the top end, and we got some

00:22:04.460 fairly, you know, qualitative data to back that up. Women are... It's hard. There's so much nurture

00:22:14.920 going on. It's hard to separate nature from nurture. Women are nurtured more to pick up on emotion

00:22:20.060 sooner. They're nurtured more to pick up on soft power sooner and have an appreciation for emotional

00:22:27.020 dynamics and how to use soft power. And so that's why I think that women have a tendency to be better

00:22:33.960 at this. I mean, some of the people that are great negotiators and I'm the biggest fans of are women.

00:22:41.280 Did you say soft power?

00:22:44.320 Yeah, well, little boys and little girls. Little boys are taught to fight. Little girls,

00:22:47.900 the women that bring them up know that inevitably they're not going to be the more physically

00:22:53.180 powerful. So they are nurtured early on to figure out how to get things without physically fighting

00:23:00.540 them.

00:23:02.500 How do you keep your emotions under check when you're negotiating?

00:23:08.680 That is the challenge, you know, and depending upon... You know, there's a couple different hacks

00:23:14.280 and they all take practice just like any other soft skill.

00:23:19.660 If you're genuinely curious, it's not possible to get upset if you can stay in a genuinely curious

00:23:26.800 frame of mind. You're one of the people I'm also a big fan of, Stephen Kotler. He talks about the

00:23:31.300 psychology of flow. Highly positive state of mind. Curiosity is positive. You're smarter. Your brain is

00:23:38.140 quicker. And when you're genuinely curious, you can't get angry. Interesting cat I run across

00:23:45.260 recently, Daryl Davis. Daryl Davis, Black musician who talks Ku Klux Klan members into quitting a Klan.

00:23:53.340 And I had a conversation with him about it and people say, well, how do you not get upset with

00:23:59.680 these people? You know, you're a Black dude. They openly say that they want to murder you.

00:24:04.720 He says, well, I grew up internationally. I just look at it as a different culture and I'm just

00:24:09.440 completely curious about where they're coming from and what are they thinking about. It leaves him in

00:24:15.180 a state of mind where he can deal with people that are against him personally, but he's just curious

00:24:20.340 about it. That's interesting. You know, one of the most useful general psychological techniques in

00:24:28.580 relationship to life and its challenges is voluntary exploration. And it's a particular

00:24:34.460 physiological mode of being. It's a very old brain center known as the hypothalamus, which controls

00:24:40.160 basic drives like hunger and thirst and temperature regulation and defensive aggression. And part of it

00:24:47.440 also controls exploration. And so if you switch into a mode of voluntary exploration, that's a mode of

00:24:54.540 being that's deeply hardwired and that envelops your entire being. But it allows you to pick up

00:25:02.300 information, right? And we are information scavengers, human beings. And so, and that's because you can

00:25:10.220 trade information for valuable things like food, you know? So if you, if you're in this,

00:25:19.380 I was struck in your book by your emphasis on unknown unknowns, black swans, you called them at

00:25:26.500 the end. You said, like, if you're listening very carefully to people, you can pick up these unknown

00:25:31.500 unknowns. And that is a consequence of voluntary exploration. And having, it's useful to pick up on

00:25:39.720 those, not only for the conversation that you're having presently, but because of what the consequences

00:25:45.300 for that conversation might be for conversations down the road. And so the man that you just

00:25:50.420 described, he opens himself up and says, well, these people are from a completely different culture

00:25:55.300 than me. Maybe there's some valuable things I can learn from them regardless of our differences in

00:26:00.820 opinion. And, and those things are of such value that they might be portable. And it is unbelievably useful

00:26:09.060 useful to approach the world in that manner, because then everyone you encounter is a goldmine

00:26:14.180 of information, especially if they don't agree with you. Because they're full of assumptions you don't

00:26:19.060 have. And, and you can find out something new as a consequence. That's way better than just having

00:26:24.100 your own opinions bolstered, which is reassuring, but doesn't offer you anything new.

00:26:32.500 Yeah, all those things are completely true. I mean, and by definition, the unknown unknowns is really where

00:26:41.700 the hidden stuff overlaps. In any given interaction, the other side is hiding stuff. I'm hiding stuff. How do we

00:26:49.460 know what happens when we, when, when the hiddens overlap? That's why the deal can always be made better.

00:26:55.540 I like that, figure out where the hiddens overlap. That's cool.

00:27:03.620 Now that's cool. Yeah.

00:27:04.740 That is cool. Uh, I think for another practical question, uh,

00:27:11.140 Practical? You guys didn't tell me this was going to be a practical interview. I thought we were just

00:27:14.740 going to have some fun.

00:27:16.500 Dad, Dad has fun. I, I just asked you practical questions repeatedly in my podcast.

00:27:21.540 Okay. I'm glad we've got the combination. But, uh, if you're trying to like, I think the one

00:27:26.980 negotiation that would benefit everyone is how to go to whoever they're working for and try and get

00:27:32.340 more money, look for a raise. And I know, especially if you're more agreeable, a lot of, a lot of people

00:27:37.780 are worried about that and have no idea where to start. So do you have tips for negotiating a raise?

00:27:42.740 Yeah, sure. Get off the get, you know, raises the price term in any negotiation. You know,

00:27:51.940 your salary pays your bills, but it doesn't build your career.

00:27:55.300 You know, price takes care of the immediate problems. What are your long-term problems?

00:27:58.660 Your long-term problems are how do you build a career? Job negotiations should be about building

00:28:03.300 your career, making yourself more valuable to the team. And one of two things is going to happen.

00:28:08.740 Your salary is going to get drug along as a result. Or if it's not, you're more valuable and you shop

00:28:16.660 yourself to the highest bidder. Now, how do you become more valuable? You know, um, here's a phrase

00:28:25.540 for every job negotiation, for every annual review. How can I be guaranteed to be involved

00:28:35.060 in the strategic projects that are critical to the company's future?

00:28:43.060 Instantaneous change in the way your employer views you. Because when you go in and ask for a raise,

00:28:50.180 empathy is about how does the other side see you? The other side sees you as selfish.

00:28:56.020 And most employers, most bosses, whenever the employee comes walking in the door,

00:29:00.660 they're after something for themselves. You condition your boss that you're selfish. You may

00:29:04.820 not like that reality, but it's unfortunately the reality. When you change their conversation

00:29:12.180 to how can I help us all prosper? Now, suddenly your boss, your employer goes like, oh,

00:29:19.860 now here's somebody I want to have around. Here's somebody that's going to make my life better.

00:29:24.180 Conversation is instantly transformed. Now, either you'll get more money, you'll have greater

00:29:30.820 experiences because also you don't want to be involved in a mundane at work. You want to,

00:29:35.460 if you're courageous, you want the big ticket item, you want to have an impact. And then even if they

00:29:41.540 don't give you a raise, the experience of being involved makes you five times more marketable than you

00:29:47.620 were before the year started. Yeah. So your advice basically is that you adopt a much broader mindset,

00:29:57.300 which is something like, how can I be optimally successful in this company? And what optimal

00:30:04.260 success is going to require is being a key player in the most important things that the company does.

00:30:11.380 That's also going to be allied with the willingness to take on additional responsibility,

00:30:15.620 not to see that as native. People often avoid responsibility, but it's,

00:30:21.700 if you can take it on voluntarily, it's, there's no difference between responsibility and opportunity.

00:30:27.460 If the company is operating properly. Yeah. What, what is that responsibility too?

00:30:33.060 You now, the highest levels of your company now have an investment in making sure you succeed.

00:30:40.820 So you just gone from being maybe somebody struggling by themselves. Your responsibilities

00:30:47.300 are critical to the, everybody's future and everybody has a stake in you doing well, because

00:30:53.060 that's what you've taken on. I mean, it's, it's a virtuous cycle, if you will. Yes. It also makes

00:30:57.540 you difficult to replace and therefore much more effective than your salary negotiations.

00:31:02.580 Amen. Absolutely. You had some really nice,

00:31:05.140 very practical tips for people negotiating their initial salary. I thought two of these were really

00:31:11.620 smart. Um, one was if, if, if you're being interviewed for a new position and you're asked to

00:31:21.620 define your starting salary, to offer a range to say something like, well, people in this position are

00:31:28.900 often offered 125 to $175,000 a year as a starting salary. And to strategically do that so that your

00:31:39.620 desired salary is in the bottom end of that range. Are they going to fall for that? Well, that, that,

00:31:46.500 yes. Well, it's a good question. Yes. Is that short answer according to the book, but I, it's interesting

00:31:53.460 that you would phrase it as fall for that because that is the danger of techniques is that they can

00:31:59.380 become manipulative, you know? So that's why I wanted to talk about the broader ethic. Yeah.

00:32:03.940 And you also mentioned that it's smart for someone who's negotiating for their first position to also

00:32:13.620 negotiate metrics for their first raise, which is even more important, right? It's like you can

00:32:18.500 negotiate for how your salary is going to increase in the future rather than how,

00:32:22.100 what it's going to be right at the beginning. But I like Michaela's question. Would you regard

00:32:29.060 that offering as a range, offering of a range as manipulative?

00:32:36.180 Now, I'm not manipulative. I mean, I'm a nice guy. What are you guys talking about,

00:32:41.220 what I regard that as manipulative? You know, all right. So, and, and from some of the talks

00:32:46.580 that I've, that I've heard you give Jordan and some other stuff, you know, there's always additional

00:32:52.020 nuances and factors to consider and you want to stay off of one thing. Like, first of all,

00:32:58.020 just because what you're worth and what they can pay, you might not line up.

00:33:03.140 And the experience for being there may be more valuable than the dollars. I got to tell you right

00:33:08.580 now, I go work for minimum wage to be Warren Buffett's assistant for a year. I will get him

00:33:13.940 coffee. I would do anything. And I, and I do it. I might do it for free because that will be a

00:33:19.460 position where I would learn so much. So you get, it's as much not handcuffing the other side

00:33:25.780 and making you somebody they can't get based on the number. You're looking for a great marriage. So the

00:33:31.940 range is to feel them out. Understand also, when you give a range and it, and the other side's numbers

00:33:40.740 within that range, they're going to take the end that most favors them. So if you're going to give

00:33:47.700 a range, you better be willing to accept the bottom number. They're not going to get in the middle.

00:33:52.260 Right, right.

00:33:53.140 What are the practical aspects of ranges?

00:33:55.940 The question I had in relationship to that was exactly the manipulative angle. I mean,

00:34:01.700 I guess maybe you could answer it. I would be happy with something in the range of 110,000 to 150,000.

00:34:09.140 And because if you have to point out that other companies are making offers in this

00:34:17.860 range, you'd have to know for sure that other companies were. I mean, there's no sense

00:34:25.460 adding a falsehood to your negotiation for the purpose of picking up an advantage. That seems to

00:34:30.900 me to be a very bad strategy.

00:34:32.420 Falsehoods are a bad idea. I'm against any sort of deception by commission or omission. So,

00:34:38.100 yeah, especially on that point. Now, I wouldn't say something out I didn't know.

00:34:44.100 This accusation audit, we should maybe talk about that a little bit. That was something I found.

00:34:50.020 Now, you derived that from your analysis of courtroom behavior of lawyers, if I remember correctly.

00:34:54.900 Well, it added to it. I mean, you know, seeing it work in different areas, it definitely added to our thinking.

00:35:01.860 What is that, exactly? If you don't mind?

00:35:05.300 Yeah, well, you know, it's, first of all, it's, you know, the lawyers would call it getting out the uglies in advance.

00:35:13.220 You know, if you got a witness that there's some ugly things about it, you bring it up first.

00:35:17.620 Let the jury reconcile themselves to it before they listen to anything else.

00:35:20.820 You know, I worked with some great prosecutors when I was with the FBI Southern District in New York.

00:35:26.820 Now, in business, it's understanding what the negatives are in advance.

00:35:33.300 What's crazy is when we begin to proactively get out in front of them.

00:35:37.140 Like, if I get, if I get something, let's say you got no negative about me at all.

00:35:42.420 But I'm getting ready to say something that you're not going to like.

00:35:46.100 I'll say, look, you're going to think I'm a real jerk for bringing this up.

00:35:49.140 And then when I bring it up, it'll have far less impact.

00:35:53.300 You'll never know what I headed you off from.

00:35:56.100 And that's why we get really aggressive with going after the negatives early on and calling them out.

00:36:00.740 Yeah, so the accusation audit allows you to lay out on the table all the weaknesses of your position and your character for that matter.

00:36:08.660 And so there's a variety of reasons that that might be useful.

00:36:12.020 One is that by indicating your willingness to admit to these faults, you show that the faults are small enough so that someone could admit to having them.

00:36:24.820 That's the first thing.

00:36:25.940 And the second thing is you show yourself as someone who's larger than their fault because they're willing to admit to them, right?

00:36:34.660 So you minimize the faults in some sense, even though you're presenting them accurately.

00:36:40.180 You minimize their emotional impact or you decrease their emotional impact.

00:36:43.940 And you increase the integrity of your own character at the same time.

00:36:50.660 And again, these are things that should be done honestly, not as a matter of technique.

00:36:54.980 If you do an accusation audit, it should be a genuine one.

00:37:00.100 And you should be doing it in part so that you, this is my understanding anyway, so that you are also as aware as you need to be of the shortcomings you have in the negotiation.

00:37:10.900 I used to agree that to you as a teenager.

00:37:15.000 I don't know if you remember.

00:37:15.840 I remember, I don't know if this was a technique or just an evil thing to do, but I can remember coming home and saying,

00:37:22.820 I like some sort of terrible thing I had.

00:37:25.640 This isn't exactly what I'm saying, but some sort of terrible thing I'd done.

00:37:28.460 I was out drinking as we're doing this.

00:37:30.180 This happened.

00:37:31.060 Just kidding.

00:37:32.120 But this actually did happen.

00:37:33.860 And it would be the second thing would be smaller.

00:37:36.320 And I found that that really worked on not getting in as a matter of all.

00:37:39.780 You're like, thank God that didn't happen.

00:37:41.740 That's not an accusation audit.

00:37:44.180 That's an anchoring technique.

00:37:46.940 Correct?

00:37:48.440 Well, you know, depending upon how you deployed it, there's a combination of both there.

00:37:52.880 Yeah.

00:37:54.160 So we could talk about the anchoring technique as well.

00:37:58.680 We could.

00:37:59.780 I mean, it's you guys' show.

00:38:00.840 We'll talk about whatever you guys make me talk.

00:38:02.340 You got me a hostage here.

00:38:03.440 I'm your hostage.

00:38:04.040 It sounds like you feel like you're a hostage.

00:38:09.580 I'll take it all day long.

00:38:12.060 So what is the anchoring technique?

00:38:14.520 Could you describe that?

00:38:16.740 Well, yeah.

00:38:17.380 I mean, the anchoring technique, and we're very, you know, you can anchor on a number.

00:38:22.500 And we don't anchor on numbers.

00:38:24.860 But I will tell you, we anchor emotionally.

00:38:27.820 If somebody wants to know what I charge for consulting, I'm going to say, hi, more than you have, more than you ever paid.

00:38:39.440 And we're not moving forward in this conversation until you ask me to give you the number.

00:38:44.100 Now, in that period of time that we waited, you're going to think of some crazy number.

00:38:49.700 And when I give you my number, you're going to say, like, ah, well, that isn't that bad.

00:38:57.300 What comes with that?

00:38:59.480 And we now made the number something that is irrelevant.

00:39:02.960 What's relevant, really, in all business negotiations is delivery.

00:39:09.640 And we overdeliver.

00:39:13.120 So the anchoring, that was a very subtle use of anchoring or description of anchoring there.

00:39:19.700 The anchoring technique occurs.

00:39:22.080 Imagine that you're always interpreting what's going on in a context of some sort.

00:39:27.060 And so how big something is depends on the context.

00:39:32.100 And so maybe you think a house, say, is worth $135,000.

00:39:37.720 And you find out the person wants $2.5 million for it.

00:39:42.960 Well, then if they come down to $500,000, you're going to think that's pretty reasonable because they anchored you at $2 million, even though you thought to begin with it was only $135,000.

00:39:54.940 So...

00:39:55.260 That is what I did.

00:39:56.300 Mm-hmm.

00:39:57.340 Nice.

00:39:58.020 Yeah, it's very, very treacherous and sneaky of you.

00:40:00.960 Yeah.

00:40:02.020 You still do that?

00:40:02.860 I don't think so.

00:40:06.680 I don't think so.

00:40:07.540 But I'm not as debaucherous as I once was.

00:40:09.720 Well, we've got to raise the level of your skills.

00:40:11.620 We've got to get you guys more money.

00:40:13.060 You know, we'll go offline and give you some coaching.

00:40:16.300 Next time, you'll be in one of five houses that you wanted to be in.

00:40:21.520 You'll have studios all over the planet.

00:40:23.340 You'll be in Fiji.

00:40:24.220 You'll be in Australia.

00:40:24.960 I need help with getting along or negotiating.

00:40:28.420 I get way too angry.

00:40:31.520 And my husband, he's amazing at it.

00:40:35.140 Like, he said, like, I read your book and...

00:40:38.420 Well, he's a good negotiator.

00:40:39.720 He's married to you.

00:40:40.600 Well, that's what he said, too.

00:40:42.180 I was like, I don't get along with you very well.

00:40:43.960 And he's like, yeah, but look where we are.

00:40:46.500 Yes, he did win that round.

00:40:48.760 Okay, another hint you have.

00:40:56.980 Neutralize the negative and reinforce the positive.

00:41:00.840 What do you mean by that?

00:41:03.460 Yeah, well, simply calling out the negatives has a neutralizing effect on them to some degree every time, every single time.

00:41:11.940 Now, how much the effect is varies.

00:41:14.120 But again, if we go back to the neuroscience stuff and the amygdala is 75% negative, you neutralize the negative, you get an opportunity for the positive to pick up some ground.

00:41:27.700 If I say, seems like you want to make a deal.

00:41:30.360 If you genuinely do, then that will reinforce that feeling.

00:41:36.380 Seems like you want a long-term relationship.

00:41:39.060 Seems like terms are important to you.

00:41:40.960 That will reinforce those positive aspects.

00:41:45.840 If I say, seems like you hate uncertainty.

00:41:50.180 The anxiety that you were feeling in the moment will diminish.

00:41:54.480 How much it diminishes, I may need to neutralize it several times to get it out of the way.

00:41:59.020 But again, our neuroscience wiring has laid out a lot of what people like you have instinctively come to know from your practice and your interaction with people where you guys were finding your way before we could map what was going on inside the brain.

00:42:15.580 Are you married, Chris?

00:42:21.340 There is an ex-Mrs. Voss, and I'm looking for the future ex-Mrs. Voss.

00:42:25.460 Ah.

00:42:26.140 Did your marriage fail as a consequence of poor negotiation?

00:42:30.760 No.

00:42:31.320 You know what?

00:42:31.820 It really failed as a consequence of what all relationships fail at.

00:42:35.480 It's no good or no bad, but a misalignment of core values.

00:42:38.540 And there were things that were important to me that weren't important to her and vice versa.

00:42:44.620 Business relationships, personal relationships.

00:42:47.560 At the end of the day, it's no good or no bad on either side.

00:42:51.400 It's just enough of a difference in core values that you're entitled to go your way, and I'm entitled to go mine.

00:42:58.840 And nobody's wrong.

00:43:00.180 Right.

00:43:00.380 So irreconcilable differences.

00:43:04.220 It's a good terminology for it, yeah.

00:43:06.380 Right, well, you used to be, that used to be acceptable grounds for divorce.

00:43:10.760 Yeah, yeah.

00:43:11.720 I mean, you're not wrong.

00:43:12.600 I'm not wrong.

00:43:13.180 We just don't match up.

00:43:15.600 How have the skills that you learned as a tactical hostage negotiator affected your more intimate relationships?

00:43:27.180 You know, it's helped me to be more attentive.

00:43:33.080 You know, it's an ongoing process.

00:43:34.780 I'm still learning.

00:43:35.640 I'm still making mistakes.

00:43:37.400 I hope to be learning and making mistakes for at least, I'd say I'm a third of the way through my life, maybe another 100 years.

00:43:46.600 But, you know, the idea of dialing into somebody and having a better long-term relationship and even thinking about that and getting better on it is very important to me.

00:43:54.920 So, yeah, I still make mistakes.

00:43:57.000 But, you know, I don't want anybody to regret having had a relationship with me, although some do.

00:44:04.780 I think that happens to everybody.

00:44:06.140 How do you negotiate with someone who, say, in a hostage situation, who doesn't want to talk to you or isn't communicating?

00:44:15.400 Are there things you can do to get them stopping to a tight-lipped?

00:44:18.120 Yeah, well, yeah, take a step back.

00:44:22.080 If somebody's being tight-lipped, one or two things are happening.

00:44:26.740 First and foremost is probably they don't feel like talking to you is doing them any good because you're not listening.

00:44:32.900 People get tight-lipped because communication isn't doing them any good.

00:44:37.580 Now, they could be trapped in a corner and they could be helpless or you could be not listening.

00:44:44.100 There are three possibilities.

00:44:46.180 Another reason for being tight-lipped, tight-lipped people trust incredibly.

00:44:54.840 And they're a little bit afraid of how vulnerable they are because when they trust, they go all in.

00:45:01.540 And they've been hurt.

00:45:02.640 They've been badly hurt.

00:45:03.520 So, they're cautious because you resemble somebody that hurt them in the past.

00:45:09.240 So, if you think about what the possibilities are, first of all, you know, just adapt and begin, look, I haven't, clearly, I haven't won your trust yet.

00:45:20.000 Well, if it's not about trust but they're helpless, they're going to correct.

00:45:24.440 They're going to say, no, no, it's not about trust.

00:45:25.980 It's because there's nothing I could do.

00:45:27.660 I'm trapped.

00:45:28.300 There's nowhere I could go.

00:45:29.840 But at that moment in time, now you're in dialogue.

00:45:32.660 Understanding what really is dialogue, even denialist dialogue.

00:45:36.420 Somebody opens, somebody who gives you more than a one-word response who was previously tight-lipped.

00:45:42.520 Now they're testing to see if you're going to listen, if you're going to understand.

00:45:47.040 Or if you're going to contradict or argue.

00:45:49.600 People are tight-lipped with other people who are argumentative.

00:45:52.260 Do you have any, or could you tell us one of your, I don't know if you're allowed to talk about these things, but can you tell us a bit of the process in the real switching story?

00:46:02.760 Is that allowed?

00:46:04.940 Yeah.

00:46:05.660 Of course it's allowed.

00:46:06.580 Right.

00:46:06.940 There I was, terrorists to the left of me.

00:46:08.800 Yeah, exactly.

00:46:09.820 One of those.

00:46:10.400 You know, there were two straight cases in the Philippines, and we talk about both of them in the book.

00:46:18.840 One, the bad guy on the other side was sociopathic, raping, murdering, killing, straight-out-of-the-movie's terrorist.

00:46:28.460 The type of person that empathy is not supposed to work on.

00:46:31.740 Now, when do you know when the other side feels understood, when the other side says that's right?

00:46:39.100 In a critical moment in that negotiation, and what I really was, was an international negotiation coach.

00:46:44.720 I'm coaching people in countries who are coachable.

00:46:48.180 And I'm coaching a guy named Benji, and he's eminently coachable.

00:46:53.780 We summarize the bad guy's point of view.

00:46:58.160 You guys have been impressed for 500 years.

00:47:00.560 Americans are horrible.

00:47:02.820 Philippine government is horrible.

00:47:04.580 You know, everything.

00:47:05.460 Everything he said.

00:47:06.320 500 years worth of emotional baggage.

00:47:09.860 Bad guy literally says, that's right.

00:47:14.640 In that instance, a $10 million ransom demand evaporated, disappeared, went off the table.

00:47:21.660 A couple of months later, we're continuing in the negotiation.

00:47:25.200 No more monetary demands for the hostage.

00:47:27.520 None.

00:47:28.900 Non-monetary demands.

00:47:31.420 Continued application of what we now refer to as tactical empathy.

00:47:35.340 Hostage walks away on Monday, Thursday, the Thursday before Easter.

00:47:41.280 Walked away.

00:47:43.180 And back in the Philippines, three weeks later, connected back up with Benji.

00:47:46.220 We're working on another case.

00:47:48.240 He says, you're not going to believe we called me on the phone.

00:47:50.140 The terrorist called him on the phone to tell him that he respected him.

00:48:00.220 That's powerful stuff because we were engaged with the same group again.

00:48:04.840 And the guy, the terrorist, the sociopath that called to express his respect for how he was treated had lost everything in the negotiation.

00:48:17.180 They wanted $10 million.

00:48:19.020 They got zero.

00:48:21.500 So this stuff works.

00:48:23.680 It works on everybody.

00:48:25.040 It always leaves you better off.

00:48:26.840 Does that mean that this terrorist wasn't actually interested in the $10 million?

00:48:34.780 He was actually interested in being understood?

00:48:37.120 What would you take away from that?

00:48:38.440 You know, around on their way through, you know, what the other side is always interested in is the best they could do.

00:48:44.400 One of the things that I learned about in really kidnapping negotiations globally, kidnapping is a commodities exchange.

00:48:51.880 They're businessmen on the other side.

00:48:54.360 And what they're really interested in is the best that they could do.

00:48:59.080 And the best you could do is often defined by how you feel during the process of the outcome.

00:49:04.160 So they wanted $10 million or the best that they could possibly do.

00:49:09.140 What does $10 million buy you?

00:49:11.300 In this instance, $10 million buys you influence.

00:49:14.640 They started asking for other things that bought them influence.

00:49:18.100 Let's get certain intermediaries involved, certain politicians.

00:49:21.780 We want access to people.

00:49:24.100 If we have more money, what do we spend that money on?

00:49:26.740 Ultimately, guns.

00:49:27.720 What do guns get you?

00:49:28.660 Guns get you influence.

00:49:30.600 Ultimately, people want soft power.

00:49:32.620 So when they started looking for something else, after having their anger being deactivated, they also sort of lost control of their operation, which created the circumstances of our hostage walking away.

00:49:50.440 Good things, it sounds ridiculous.

00:49:53.780 Good things fall out of the sky if you let them happen.

00:49:56.160 And that's one of the reasons to engage in this approach to negotiation, because something good is going to happen if you give it the opportunity.

00:50:05.280 Tell me what your company does exactly now.

00:50:08.580 I mean, you were hired by a business.

00:50:11.960 Yeah, well, we coach.

00:50:12.960 You know, we coach.

00:50:13.820 We get hired by businesses all the time, but we really coach high performers to better lives.

00:50:18.740 You coach the high performers specifically?

00:50:20.400 Well, yeah.

00:50:22.860 I mean, the people that are drawn to us are the high performers.

00:50:26.840 And our marketing is pointed much more at individuals and companies.

00:50:30.700 Again, we coach companies, but companies, by and large, are relatively dysfunctional.

00:50:37.200 Daniel Coyle in the Culture Code, I think he pointed out the stat that only 6% of corporate executives could actually recite their corporate values.

00:50:46.300 Well, and 40% of managers add negative net value to the company.

00:50:52.420 Yeah, there you go, right?

00:50:53.720 Yeah.

00:50:54.440 So, you know, these are people that are struggling with themselves, let alone new training.

00:50:59.660 But we coach people that are making better lives for themselves and their families that are top performers.

00:51:07.900 I mean, typically, people that we coach in negotiations are cutting two or three life-changing deals a year as opposed to one every five or six years.

00:51:20.680 Everybody that we coach, that we were coaching last year, are wealthier right now than they were a year ago.

00:51:29.800 How do they find you?

00:51:31.220 Well, Black Swan Ltd is a website, B-L-A-C-K-S-W-A-N-L-T-D.com.

00:51:39.960 You know, the first step is a book, which, you know, you were kind enough to look through and appreciate and recognize how much that, you know, we're in sync with on our thinking.

00:51:52.440 And then come to the website.

00:51:55.040 We got free stuff downloaded.

00:51:56.860 Subscribe to our newsletter.

00:51:58.160 It's free.

00:51:58.760 It's actionable.

00:51:59.340 Give us a chance to put your family in a bigger house.

00:52:04.880 Send your kids to a better school.

00:52:07.440 Your book is titled Never Split the Difference.

00:52:10.540 Yeah.

00:52:10.960 So I always thought negotiation meant somebody has a point of view here and somebody has a point of view here and you want to find middle ground.

00:52:21.120 What exactly do you mean by never split the difference?

00:52:24.600 You know, it's a two-way street.

00:52:27.460 But split me the difference, first of all, is a fool's errand for a number of reasons.

00:52:34.940 Compromise.

00:52:36.600 You know, do you compromise your principles?

00:52:39.880 You know, there was a cartoon about a married couple a long time ago.

00:52:44.620 A husband and a wife are talking to each other and the husband says, let's compromise.

00:52:49.640 That way we'll both be unhappy.

00:52:52.000 You know, compromise is a way to guarantee that you're both unhappy.

00:52:55.720 Now, there's some people that say, well, a great negotiation is where both sides are a little unhappy.

00:53:00.160 Is a great marriage where both sides are unhappy?

00:53:02.300 That's a definition of long-term unhappiness.

00:53:06.720 So besides knowing what you want, don't compromise and meet in the middle.

00:53:13.680 You're both going to be unhappy.

00:53:16.140 Now, what the other side wants may be even better than what you had in mind.

00:53:20.440 A colleague, a friend, a mentor, somebody we do business with, a guy named Dan Sullivan, recently wrote a book called Who Not How.

00:53:29.020 He coaches the greatest entrepreneurs in the world.

00:53:32.420 He heard me give a talk, and he decided how he was going to take a position with his partners on his book deal.

00:53:38.020 The book that he just put out, the people that he collaborated with, he gave them every dime.

00:53:46.260 Because I said, sometimes what the other side wants, give them what they want.

00:53:51.860 The guys that he collaborated with on that book, giving them every dime from the book, because the amount of business it's going to develop for his company, which is going to be huge.

00:54:01.660 They are killing themselves for him.

00:54:03.540 I was on a conference call with them, Ben Hardy and Tucker Max.

00:54:07.820 Tucker Max is a famous author in his own right.

00:54:10.880 Tucker says, Dan got every drop of our blood on this book.

00:54:16.920 Dan gave them every dime from the book, because he knew how much it was going to bring him long-term.

00:54:22.740 So never split the difference.

00:54:24.080 Also, the other side, give them their position, and they will kill themselves for you.

00:54:28.900 Yeah, so it's interesting, because compromise is a reasonable way of construing negotiation, I think, if you're deadlocked, and you have to make a decision, and there's also a time pressure.

00:54:47.120 So then, it seems to me, under those circumstances, that would be a reasonable heuristic to say, well, we'll split the difference, and we'll both be unhappy.

00:54:53.860 No, how dare you? How dare you? No, no, no, no, no.

00:54:59.900 Let me develop that out for a moment, because there is something about negotiation that is inextricably associated with compromise.

00:55:10.120 I don't think that's the best way of conceptualizing negotiation as such, though.

00:55:15.180 See, because people are going to listen to this podcast, and they're going to think, no, no, no.

00:55:19.820 Sometimes you have to split the difference.

00:55:22.000 No.

00:55:22.900 Okay.

00:55:24.240 I knew this was going to be a...

00:55:25.420 I want to push you on that, because...

00:55:27.720 Push me. Don't push me. Hug me. Give me a hug.

00:55:30.480 No, no, I'm going to go with the push, I think.

00:55:33.000 We can hug at the end, if it all goes well.

00:55:35.060 So, look, if you're negotiating with your child, seven years old, and he wants to go to bed at 9.30, and you want him to go to bed at 8.30, what's wrong with splitting the difference?

00:55:53.260 Why not, in that situation, split the difference?

00:55:57.020 Okay.

00:55:58.100 See, I'm just...

00:56:00.260 I don't think it's reasonable to throw out the idea that compromise is sometimes required in the evaluation.

00:56:07.700 Now you're name-calling. How dare you? Will you call me any names now?

00:56:10.920 Well, maybe I'm just digging... Maybe I'm just digging up the reasons for the marriage clash.

00:56:15.480 No, sorry.

00:56:22.700 Anyway.

00:56:25.000 Do you think there are any circumstances under which the proper way of conceptualizing negotiation is as compromised?

00:56:35.580 All right, so here's the first problem with compromise.

00:56:37.460 And I know you're familiar with Danny Kahneman's prospect theory, lost things twice as much as an equivalent gain.

00:56:43.740 The downward spiral we get into compromise, let's say you and I meet in the middle.

00:56:49.720 Neither one of us are going to feel we met in the middle.

00:56:53.980 Because I'm a human being, and I'm wired so that lost things twice as much as an equivalent gain.

00:56:59.960 And I believe Professor Kahneman actually gave a Nobel Prize-winning behavioral economics theory.

00:57:05.740 I think he said that he thinks it's actually five to seven times as much, and he and Amos Tversky just said twice as much, so they got fewer arguments.

00:57:14.740 So let's say we meet in the middle. Let's say you give in 10.

00:57:20.240 Emotionally, you felt you gave 20.

00:57:22.700 And you're not going to feel whole until you hit me for 20.

00:57:26.540 Now you've hit me for 20.

00:57:29.720 I'm not going to feel even until I've hit you for 40.

00:57:33.140 This is a guaranteed downward spiral.

00:57:36.600 Because we're human, it's impossible to compromise in a way that we both feel is fair, even if the numbers are exactly the same.

00:57:47.660 Okay, so then you, it seems to me like you're making the case that a negotiation that ends in compromise actually failed.

00:57:57.460 Amen.

00:57:59.580 Okay, well, that's worth thinking about, yeah?

00:58:02.460 Because that would mean that neither party was able to switch the conceptual framework around so that both walked away in rich.

00:58:12.100 Exactly.

00:58:13.020 Both are going to walk away feeling hurt.

00:58:14.760 And if she's a recipe for bad, bad, that ain't going to sustain her.

00:58:20.940 Does that imply, let's say then, in business negotiation, if you can negotiate an arrangement where you both walk away in rich,

00:58:30.260 and you have to default to compromise, that you should probably walk away.

00:58:36.820 Yeah, no deal is better than a bad deal.

00:58:39.920 Well, okay, so my question, I actually agree just from looking at...

00:58:44.360 You're not going to call me names like your dad.

00:58:45.820 No, no, no.

00:58:46.580 I'm a very nice person.

00:58:48.640 That's not even true.

00:58:50.160 My dad is a nice person.

00:58:51.660 I know.

00:58:52.240 I'm just teasing the both of you.

00:58:53.960 I was looking forward to talking to you guys because I knew it was going to be fun.

00:58:57.960 Yeah, it seems fun.

00:58:59.480 I'm glad that that weird thing is happening.

00:59:01.240 So I found that when I'm trying to negotiate things, I'm angry unless I change my mind or get what I want, which I think is what you were saying.

00:59:13.840 Interesting thought, yeah.

00:59:14.800 I've never felt okay with a compromise.

00:59:18.560 So I kind of get what you're saying from there.

00:59:21.540 Now, putting a toddler to bed, my go-to is, hey, you're three and I'm older than you.

00:59:29.280 And eight o'clock is the bedtime.

00:59:31.280 Yeah, it's just power.

00:59:33.060 It's authority.

00:59:34.400 And it doesn't work.

00:59:35.780 Yeah, it's authority.

00:59:36.620 So that's my go-to.

00:59:37.660 Now, Andre, my husband, negotiates with a three-year-old, and I go, you're insane for negotiating with a three-year-old, but he can talk her into deciding she wants to go to bed at eight, which is ideal.

00:59:49.540 But when do you use authority, or do you just think that's a bad tactic?

00:59:56.440 Well, using authority is bad for you long term.

01:00:02.400 And because then if it's with your children, you're conditioning them that you can't win without authority.

01:00:14.020 Now, I would ask you to consider in your interactions with your children over bedtime, you're trying to get them to go to bed or you're trying to get them to think.

01:00:23.540 And I would offer the larger views to get them to think.

01:00:27.420 And then at what age, how do you stimulate that thinking?

01:00:31.180 Three is a little early, four to five.

01:00:36.360 But you're really teaching your kids to think all along the way.

01:00:39.780 You're showing them core values.

01:00:41.440 And if you're getting your way with your kid based on authority, what kind of a core value are you showing them?

01:00:48.780 Now, there are times children need discipline.

01:00:51.540 Human beings need boundaries because it makes them feel secure.

01:00:56.180 Stability.

01:00:57.160 You could say that about 50 times, I would say.

01:01:00.120 Yeah, yeah.

01:01:01.900 Everybody needs stability, predictability.

01:01:06.020 You know, predictability turns into trust.

01:01:10.780 You know, your kids need to know if you're going to set a line and how you're going to set that line.

01:01:15.940 And then are you going to encourage them to think and become better people?

01:01:18.560 And we have we a lot of people use never split the difference in their interactions with their kids.

01:01:25.160 And we get funny feedback like, you know, I've cut 15 minutes off bedtime or, you know, 20 minutes off preparation time to go to bed.

01:01:33.480 And then the interactions with their children are different.

01:01:36.580 This is this is human nature stuff.

01:01:38.200 This is really about human nature.

01:01:40.560 How about business stories?

01:01:42.180 Let's let's let's let's let's walk through let's walk through like a particularly successful transformation that you see on the clients.

01:01:51.360 Something like that.

01:01:52.740 Wow.

01:01:53.100 Yeah.

01:01:54.360 Well, the first one that springs to mind, you know, because my students at the business schools were my clients, my customers.

01:02:02.280 I was coaching them into better deals.

01:02:03.620 One of my students is doing a negotiation to come on with a company and he's a he's a best person for the job.

01:02:11.460 He's worth more than what they're offering and what the job is worth more than what they're offering.

01:02:15.640 He said, we're at an impasse.

01:02:16.740 I can't get any more out of it.

01:02:19.380 I said, write down a list of questions that you would ask where the answer would be yes.

01:02:26.340 That would prove your case.

01:02:27.860 Now, flip all those questions on its head and make every one of them a no oriented question.

01:02:37.460 And you'd be shocked what you can get away with getting somebody to say no.

01:02:41.760 You know, do you do you want me to fail?

01:02:44.620 You want to lose the best person for the job?

01:02:46.860 Do you want the person that takes this job to fail?

01:02:49.880 He flipped all his yes questions to no questions.

01:02:52.360 He came back to me, said that the salary offer that they put on the table was so much higher than what they were authorized to do.

01:02:58.080 They had to go to the CFO to give him permission to do the deal.

01:03:03.340 Now the job negotiation.

01:03:06.060 Young man is a top analyst in his company making boatloads of money for his company.

01:03:11.940 Wants to go back and renegotiate his compensation package.

01:03:17.280 The important thing here, too, is the other side doesn't feel beaten.

01:03:21.300 He goes to his boss and he says, you know, I'm earning more and more for you than anybody else is.

01:03:26.280 I deserve a raise.

01:03:28.360 And his boss says, yeah, you know.

01:03:30.840 Those are all true, but I don't see how I can give you a raise.

01:03:33.700 It's fair to everybody else who's been here longer than you and put more of their life into this company than you.

01:03:40.280 So you come back to me in two weeks.

01:03:42.620 If you can come up with a plan that shows how we can do this fairly, I'll give you the raise.

01:03:46.440 Welcome to Season 3, Episode 39 of the Jordan B. Peterson Podcast.

01:03:52.920 I'm Michaela Peterson, Jordan's daughter.

01:03:55.280 This is a very recent interview with Chris Voss.

01:03:58.300 The video version of the podcast is available on my YouTube channel.

01:04:02.140 I originally invited Chris Voss onto my podcast, but Dad wanted to join.

01:04:05.840 And obviously, I was thrilled with that opportunity.

01:04:08.280 I love podcasting with Dad.

01:04:09.540 So if you want the video format, type in Chris Voss, Jordan Peterson on YouTube, and I'm sure the video will pop up.

01:04:16.480 Chris Voss is an American businessman, author, and the CEO of the Black Swan Group, which teaches people how to negotiate.

01:04:23.860 He co-authored Never Split the Difference, a book on how to negotiate, and a book on his experience as an FBI negotiator.

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01:06:00.260 Hope you enjoy this episode.

01:06:02.000 If you do, remember to subscribe.

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01:10:09.380 Very pleased to have with us today, us being Caleb Peterson and Jordan Peterson.

01:10:30.320 Chris Voss, who's currently CEO of Black Swan Consulting,

01:10:35.460 was formerly the FBI's talk director,

01:10:39.380 International Kidnapping Negotiator,

01:10:42.600 and is the author of Never Split the Difference,

01:10:47.260 a book offering to teach its readers the fine art of successful negotiation.

01:10:53.600 Thanks very much for joining us today, Chris.

01:10:56.000 I enjoyed your book a lot, and I'm looking forward to your stories.

01:11:00.260 Yeah, thank you.

01:11:00.860 It's my pleasure.

01:11:01.660 It's awesome to be on with you guys.

01:11:03.020 Much appreciated.

01:11:07.140 Why do you...

01:11:08.480 I'm interested in negotiation because I'm a clinical psychologist,

01:11:11.460 and a lot of what clinical psychologists do is negotiate with their clients for behavioral change,

01:11:18.240 but also teach their clients to negotiate successfully with the people around them to get what they want.

01:11:24.100 So negotiation is a very underdeveloped skill in most people.

01:11:29.440 Right.

01:11:29.620 So I'm wondering how you came to develop an interest in it, and we'll go from there.

01:11:38.980 Well, let me quote the great...

01:11:41.320 I like to say, quote the great actor Rocky Balboa.

01:11:43.880 I couldn't sing a dance.

01:11:46.600 I was...

01:11:47.180 You know, I was...

01:11:47.800 With the FBI, I was a SWAT guy.

01:11:49.320 I had to get out of SWAT because of recurring injuries, but I want to stay in crisis response.

01:11:56.220 And so, you know, we had hostage negotiators.

01:11:58.300 I knew they were around.

01:11:59.060 I didn't know what they'd do.

01:11:59.980 It didn't seem that hard, right?

01:12:01.860 You know, I could talk to terrorists is what I thought.

01:12:05.760 Got into it.

01:12:06.540 It was fantastic.

01:12:07.740 It was...

01:12:08.960 You know, I had to sort of fight my way in, not really fight my way in.

01:12:13.900 I had to work to get in.

01:12:14.720 I was eminently unqualified before I became a negotiator.

01:12:17.460 But my first step was to volunteer on a suicide hotline.

01:12:21.320 And, you know, the opportunity to influence people in short periods of time blew me away.

01:12:27.260 Really counterintuitive methods.

01:12:29.880 And one thing led to another.

01:12:32.220 I taught negotiation at Harvard and collaborated on a book with some people and been teaching negotiation ever since.

01:12:39.180 It's just been phenomenal.

01:12:40.880 It's great to have a positive impact, I'm sure, as you feel.

01:12:43.960 You know, you have the opportunity to have a positive impact on people.

01:12:47.320 It's enormously satisfying.

01:12:50.320 So, what made you think that the skills that you had picked up as a negotiator in these crisis situations would be applicable to people in their day-to-day concerns?

01:13:02.420 Yeah, you know, great question.

01:13:03.820 I mean, I suspected early on when I was volunteering on the hotline, like, is this just people in crisis or is it just people?

01:13:13.460 And I started using the skills in my day-to-day life, you know, and it impacted all my relationships and made me a better hostage negotiator.

01:13:21.880 And when I first started collaborating with Harvard and they invited me to come and attend the law school's negotiation course, instructors up there were teaching and were saying, like, look, man, you're doing the same thing we're doing.

01:13:36.380 And the stakes are different, but the dynamics are absolutely the same.

01:13:42.640 And that was, you know, what was sort of their blessing and their understanding ended up teaching there later.

01:13:48.120 But the dynamics are the same.

01:13:49.720 It's human behavior, regardless of what the circumstances are.

01:13:52.720 We're wired in certain ways.

01:13:54.460 And as human beings, we all have the same wiring, as you know.

01:14:00.900 So I'm going to get into some of your, what would you call, tactical strategies, I guess.

01:14:07.220 And speaking of the clinical connection, when I was reading your book, the first thing that came to mind is that the techniques in general sounded very much like those that were put forth by Carl Rogers to ensure successful clinical transformation.

01:14:21.660 And lo and behold, about halfway through the book, you make direct reference to Carl Rogers.

01:14:27.580 And he was a great, well, he was really the formalizer, I think, of the idea of the act of listening and reflection, particularly the idea that you should put yourself in the shoes of the other person.

01:14:40.780 But also, to ensure that you're hearing them properly, you should repeat what they said back to them in a paraphrased manner and see if you actually got the gist of their conversation.

01:14:53.380 So, to some degree, you concentrate on that, I guess, in the section, well, it's not so much labeling, statement mirroring, I guess, is your term, with a pause.

01:15:04.900 Well, you know, there's a couple.

01:15:09.460 I mean, we've really sort of really defined all the different skills in real specific detail.

01:15:15.120 And that was one of the things that the Harvard guys said to me, because we're on the same path, but FBI, we're a little bit further down it.

01:15:22.620 And they said, you know, we're both talking about the same skills.

01:15:25.700 You've defined them with much more clarity, because principally in law enforcement, you know, cops, FBI agents, you know, we want specifics on how to do something, and then we'll take it and we'll road test it.

01:15:37.660 So, mirroring versus labeling, we would call two different things, and even the different types of labels.

01:15:43.480 And, you know, we take what we learned, what the world learned, we collected many kinds of psychology, and we added neuroscience, and we started trying to hit very specific parts of the brain to create very specific reactions.

01:15:57.660 So, yeah, mirroring, I would define mirroring as repeating the last one to three words of what someone just said, or selected one to three words.

01:16:05.320 Versus labeling, I'm looking for emotional nuances, dynamics.

01:16:09.120 Well, one of the things that struck me with labeling is that, you know, people might respond positively to that.

01:16:16.960 We should, I'll let you define it momentarily, but people should respond positively to that, because it's often the case that when people are in a discussion or negotiating, that they don't actually know what they're bringing to the table or what they want.

01:16:31.260 And so, if they're floundering about in a somewhat emotion-ridden and stressed manner, and you put your finger on what it is that they're trying to say, then you're actually articulating something for them that's still only being processed at the level of bodily response.

01:16:50.400 And people find that a great relief, if you can do it accurately, because you've summed up a very complicated set of physiological disturbances with a single utterance and kind of enable them to see the pathway forward.

01:17:06.940 Yeah, no, absolutely.

01:17:08.360 And you can even, it doesn't even have to be that accurate, you know, which is the thing that neurosciences taught us, you know, oxytocin, dopamine, depend upon what neurochemical is being hit.

01:17:19.680 I mean, when you're inaccurate, and they correct you, they actually get a hit of dopamine, which they love.

01:17:27.140 I mean, people hate being corrected, but they love to correct.

01:17:29.820 It's a great way to create a bond that the other person doesn't even know is being built.

01:17:33.740 Well, and if you're incorrect, and you're labeling at least the person then has something they can object to that's concrete.

01:17:39.800 You talk about that a bit, right?

01:17:41.560 The importance of getting somebody to say no.

01:17:44.480 That was interesting.

01:17:45.540 Like, is it possible to describe that a little bit?

01:17:47.880 Yeah, no is one of the craziest words.

01:17:51.920 And we, you know, hearing it, we're taught when we're little, you know, what's the first word every child learns?

01:17:58.360 No.

01:17:59.260 Yeah, they love that word.

01:18:01.620 Yeah.

01:18:02.040 They get hammered with it over and over again.

01:18:04.000 So we're conditioned that when we hear it, we've done something wrong.

01:18:07.280 But at the same time, we're conditioned when we say it, we've protected ourselves.

01:18:10.720 So if I get you to say no, you feel protected, you're going to want to talk.

01:18:16.400 You're going to feel good about the interaction.

01:18:18.800 You're not going to feel threatened.

01:18:20.000 You're more likely to open up.

01:18:21.940 I mean, even something as little as nobody in my company says to anybody, have you got a few minutes to talk?

01:18:28.840 It's always, is now a bad time to talk.

01:18:31.340 Complete change in the other side's reaction.

01:18:33.160 Right.

01:18:35.500 And so you say instead, is this a bad time to talk?

01:18:40.180 Right.

01:18:40.660 Yeah.

01:18:40.920 Right.

01:18:41.720 Or even like, I won't say, is this a good idea?

01:18:45.220 I'll say, is this a dumb idea?

01:18:48.060 And you'll probably go like, no, it's not a dumb idea, but here are the following problems.

01:18:51.260 Here's what we got to do.

01:18:52.580 I mean, it's a complete change in reaction.

01:18:54.220 Yeah, well, you know, if you watch two-year-olds with no, because they really latch onto that word, it's really remarkable.

01:19:00.580 And the reason for that is that it enables them to protect themselves against being hijacked by other people, right?

01:19:08.180 It's actually the word that defines the boundary between them and the world and enables them to have some autonomy.

01:19:14.800 It's amazing.

01:19:15.860 I remember I babysat a little kid at one point, or maybe it was my old son.

01:19:20.240 It might have been Julian.

01:19:21.780 No, I think it was a kid I was babysitting.

01:19:23.460 He was an unbelievably stubborn little kid.

01:19:25.140 And I was trying to get him to do something just to interact with me.

01:19:30.860 And I offered him a bunch of different enticements.

01:19:36.160 Wait a minute, you as a psychologist is having trouble getting a two-year-old to cooperate?

01:19:39.800 Well, this was a particularly stubborn little two-year-old, but he took note.

01:19:45.900 Is there a bloodline connection?

01:19:47.160 Is that why it was so...

01:19:47.780 No, no, no.

01:19:48.580 This was truly the neighbor's child, actually.

01:19:51.800 But he was willing to say no to M&M's and ice cream, which was...

01:19:56.280 He caught himself when he noticed that he had said it.

01:20:00.100 But the no was such an attractive proposition to him that he was willing to forego even basic immediate rewards just for the thrill of being able to maintain that autonomy.

01:20:10.460 Yeah.

01:20:10.940 So we should go through your technique, let's say, your techniques with some order.

01:20:16.860 So I'm going to read a couple, and maybe you could just describe what you mean by them.

01:20:23.780 So you have tactical empathy, for example.

01:20:28.160 Yeah, sure.

01:20:28.780 I mean, we're trying to take...

01:20:30.300 First of all, the point of calling it that was taking it out of today's common usage of empathy is sympathy or even compassion.

01:20:39.920 Now, I would argue that I would offer that empathy is a very compassionate thing to do.

01:20:46.640 But going back to the real reason I first started collaborating with Harvard, you know, they said empathy is not agreement.

01:20:53.240 It's not sympathy.

01:20:54.000 It's not even liking the other side.

01:20:55.480 It's just completely understanding.

01:20:58.320 The basis song from Rogers in psychology, the stuff that anybody that's pursued this is studying.

01:21:04.040 Now, let's add in neuroscience, tactically.

01:21:07.740 Tactically, we know that the amygdala is kind of the crossroads of all our thoughts, and it's wired to be negative, 75% negative.

01:21:17.580 And tactically, we know that simply identifying a negative diminishes it, not denying it, identifying it.

01:21:23.740 You think I'm a jerk.

01:21:25.280 No, I don't think you're that much of a jerk.

01:21:27.700 By saying that, you've diminished it in the other side.

01:21:30.360 So let's just put a tactical application to our empathy, knowing that the negative emotions have four times the impact, or at least, on people's thinking.

01:21:41.060 So let's approach and come in through a different door.

01:21:44.320 And it's tactical because, well, this is something that needs to be clarified, too, is that when you're negotiating, what is it that you're striving to attain, do you think?

01:21:54.680 And if it's a win, you know, people conceptualize the success of a negotiation in different ways.

01:22:01.480 It could be you win, which means you get what you want.

01:22:04.700 It could be win-win, in which case both people get what they want.

01:22:08.080 You can go beyond that because you could say that in a really successful negotiation, people even discover new things they didn't know they wanted, and they get those, too.

01:22:16.560 So, you know, tactical towards what end?

01:22:23.060 If you had a philosophy of negotiation, what might that be?

01:22:26.920 You know, the philosophy is great collaboration, which requires long-term relationships.

01:22:32.920 And ideally, every deal kicks stuff out that you didn't expect that delighted you, which is going to addict you to want to continue to deal with me.

01:22:46.380 Great long-term relationship.

01:22:47.880 If every deal were in, you're delighted, you can't wait to do another one.

01:22:53.120 Right.

01:22:53.320 So that's absolutely crucial because it puts it within a real moral framework, right?

01:22:57.000 Because otherwise, you could learn to negotiate for psychopathic reasons, which would be only short-term interests of yourself.

01:23:05.000 But if you put it in a framework where you're trying to set yourself up to play repeatedly with the same person or with a whole variety of different people, then an ethic automatically enters into you.

01:23:16.900 Right.

01:23:17.200 Your reputation precedes you.

01:23:19.020 I mean, you get a reputation for doing nothing but good for people.

01:23:22.160 People line up to do business with you.

01:23:24.760 Right.

01:23:25.020 Exactly.

01:23:25.500 And reputation is actually the marker for your utility as a long-term partner.

01:23:31.200 Yeah.

01:23:31.860 Yep.

01:23:32.860 How did that work with specifically FBI negotiations?

01:23:36.940 I mean, if you're dealing with somebody like a hostage taker, how does that end up being a win for them?

01:23:42.680 Yeah, well, first of all, the crazy thing is hostage negotiators have reputational concerns.

01:23:48.280 You know, we have repeat customers.

01:23:50.100 And even if the guy that we're dealing with, even if he goes to jail and never comes out, how we handle them is going to get into the media.

01:24:00.260 So reputation is an immediate concern.

01:24:03.440 And, you know, people are so driven by where it's taken them in the long run.

01:24:08.840 I mean, if somebody has a vision of the future, no matter how far down the line that vision is, that's a good thing.

01:24:17.360 Now we've got something to talk about.

01:24:19.100 And, you know, my first response with a bank robber is really going to be, sounds like you want to survive.

01:24:27.160 Of course they do.

01:24:29.680 Otherwise, they'd have come out and gotten shot already.

01:24:32.460 Now we've got something to talk about.

01:24:35.420 How do you deal with the people who don't want to survive?

01:24:39.580 You can pick that up pretty quickly.

01:24:41.980 You know, you're going to know right off the bat.

01:24:43.980 If you're there to hear it.

01:24:46.580 And the analogy, in the business world, not everybody wants to do the deal with you.

01:24:50.220 Maybe they want to exploit you.

01:24:51.480 Maybe they want to take advantage of you.

01:24:53.080 Maybe they see it as a one-off.

01:24:55.160 Maybe they're playing you for a fool.

01:24:57.160 You, you've got to pick that up in, in your, in your everyday negotiations as well.

01:25:01.820 And you'll hear it if you're open to hearing it.

01:25:05.300 It's, it's avoiding preconceived notions is what really shuts you down.

01:25:11.240 Being too focused on a goal gives you, gives you tunnel vision.

01:25:15.440 Well, I really, I really like the, um, repeated game analogy.

01:25:23.360 You know, that one of the things I've lectured about is that

01:25:26.520 you tell your children, it isn't important whether they win or lose.

01:25:30.180 It's important how they play the game.

01:25:31.940 You do.

01:25:32.440 But you do.

01:25:33.380 Yeah.

01:25:33.800 You don't.

01:25:34.540 Yeah.

01:25:35.040 But you don't necessarily understand what that means.

01:25:37.640 Why you're telling your child that.

01:25:39.120 And they might say, well, it's obviously important that I win.

01:25:41.680 So I don't know what you're telling me.

01:25:43.420 But the goal of proper play is to be invited to play as many games as possible,

01:25:49.580 not to win that particular game, even though you also want to win that game.

01:25:53.520 So you lay out this ethic, which is to make yourself the best collaborator,

01:25:57.940 the most desirable possible collaborator across the longest term with the

01:26:02.600 largest number of people.

01:26:03.600 And then you can put these techniques to use, which without them being cold,

01:26:07.900 harsh, um, what techniques of manipulation.

01:26:14.280 Yeah.

01:26:15.280 I was going to say the big difference between manipulation and influence is

01:26:18.620 really where are you taking me?

01:26:20.720 Manipulation is when I'm trying to hurt you.

01:26:23.020 Influence is when I'm trying to help you.

01:26:24.540 Same set of skills, but where are you coming from?

01:26:26.420 Where are you trying to go?

01:26:28.120 Right.

01:26:28.820 Right.

01:26:29.140 And with the most business relationships, people get cynical about this,

01:26:32.660 but most business relationships are in fact relationships.

01:26:37.660 You know, I was really struck by this.

01:26:39.340 It's even more so in the business world than it is in the academic world,

01:26:42.240 because in the academic world, you put forward a claim and at least in the more

01:26:47.960 scientifically oriented fields, the validity of your claim is dependent on the

01:26:53.380 degree to which you follow the proper scientific procedure.

01:26:56.840 So there's an objective way of assessing your, your ability, but in business,

01:27:03.760 it's a lot softer than that in some manner because the measurement techniques for

01:27:08.780 assessing the other person's ability aren't so clearly there.

01:27:11.720 And so relationship becomes crucial.

01:27:14.440 And, and, and it's very interesting to me to understand negotiation as the,

01:27:22.660 um, as the, as the, as the skill that makes capitalism intensely human because it brings

01:27:33.400 it under this, under the necessity of, it shows how tightly associated successful business

01:27:42.180 development is with playing the game with other people's property.

01:27:47.100 And it helps you avoid cynicism about the entire process.

01:27:51.640 I would say.

01:27:52.840 Yeah, no, I, I agree completely.

01:27:54.700 I mean, you know, our, our coauthor, I mean, a book was written between myself,

01:27:58.720 my son, Brandon, and Tal Roz.

01:28:01.160 Now, Tal is a brilliant dude.

01:28:02.860 I mean, I would read anything, any business book that he's written.

01:28:06.260 I don't know that I'd read any of his poetry, but I'd read his business books.

01:28:09.480 And one of the things that he pointed out to us is by definition, as a species, the only

01:28:15.260 ones of us that survived were the ones that collaborated were hardwired to collaborate.

01:28:20.620 So if you increase your collaboration skills, more people are going to want to do business

01:28:24.360 with you.

01:28:25.440 And to your point, it's not always that measurable in an immediate number.

01:28:30.980 It may be a secondary or tertiary benefit, but you become wealthy by being a great collaborator.

01:28:39.900 Is there any difference between negotiating, Mr. Cross the board, with women versus men?

01:28:47.480 Well, that's a loaded question.

01:28:49.240 That's for sure.

01:28:49.900 I didn't mean that.

01:28:50.660 I just.

01:28:52.040 We're going to get into differences between men and men and women.

01:28:54.680 I would love to do that because women pick this style of negotiation up faster than the

01:29:02.240 men do.

01:29:03.740 Now, at the top end, and we got some fairly, you know, qualitative data to back that up.

01:29:11.840 Women are, it's hard.

01:29:14.880 There's so much nurture going on.

01:29:16.720 It's hard to separate nature from nurture.

01:29:19.080 Women are nurtured more to pick up on emotion sooner.

01:29:21.760 They're, they're nurtured more to pick up on soft power sooner and have an appreciation

01:29:27.100 for emotional dynamics and how to use soft power.

01:29:32.240 And so that's why I think that women have a tendency to be better at this.

01:29:35.580 I mean, some, some of the people that are great negotiators and I'm the biggest fans

01:29:39.760 of are women.

01:29:42.460 Did you say, you said soft power?

01:29:45.520 Yeah.

01:29:45.940 Well, little boys and little girls, little boys are taught to fight.

01:29:48.480 Little girls, uh, the women that bring them up, uh, know that inevitably they're not going

01:29:53.580 to be the more physically powerful.

01:29:55.660 So they are, they are nurtured early on to figure out how to get things without physically

01:30:01.340 fighting them.

01:30:03.700 How do you keep your emotions under check when you're negotiating?

01:30:09.880 That is the challenge, you know, and depending upon, you know, there's a couple of different

01:30:15.020 hacks, um, and they all take practice just like any other soft skill.

01:30:20.880 If you're genuinely curious, it's not possible to get upset.

01:30:25.440 If you can stay in a genuinely, genuinely curious frame of mind, you're one of the people

01:30:29.920 I'm also a big fan of, Steven Kotler.

01:30:31.820 He talks about the psychology of flow, highly positive state of mind.

01:30:36.540 Curiosity is positive.

01:30:37.800 You're smarter.

01:30:38.800 Your brain is quicker.

01:30:39.860 And when you're genuinely curious, you can't get angry.

01:30:44.620 Um, interesting cat I run across recently, Daryl Davis, Daryl Davis, black musician who

01:30:49.900 taught talks Klu Klux Klan members into quitting a Klan.

01:30:54.500 And I had a conversation with him about it.

01:30:57.100 And people say, well, how do you not get upset with these people that, you know, you're

01:31:02.280 black dude.

01:31:02.860 They, they openly say that they want to murder you.

01:31:06.660 He says, well, I grew up internationally.

01:31:08.520 I just look at it as a different culture.

01:31:10.320 And I'm just completely curious about where they're coming from and what are they thinking

01:31:14.500 about?

01:31:15.500 It leaves him in a state of mind where he can deal with people that are against him personally.

01:31:20.460 But he's just curious about it.

01:31:22.280 That's interesting.

01:31:23.600 You know, one of the most useful general psychological techniques in relationship to life and its challenges

01:31:31.800 is voluntary exploration.

01:31:33.980 And it's a particular physiological mode of being.

01:31:38.040 It's a very old brain center known as the hypothalamus, which controls basic drives like hunger and thirst and temperature regulation and defensive aggression.

01:31:47.100 And part of it also controls exploration.

01:31:50.760 And so if you switch into a mode of voluntary exploration, that's, that's a mode of being that's deeply hardwired and that envelops your entire being.

01:32:00.280 But it allows you to pick up information, right?

01:32:05.340 And we are information scavengers, human beings.

01:32:09.120 And so, and that's because you can trade information for valuable things like food, you know?

01:32:15.080 So, um, if you, if you're in this, I was struck in your book by your emphasis on unknown unknowns, black swans, you called them at the end.

01:32:28.280 You said, like, if you're listening very carefully to people, you can pick up these unknown unknowns.

01:32:33.280 And that is a consequence of voluntary exploration and having, it's useful to pick up on those, not only for the conversation that you're having presently, but because of what the consequences for that conversation might be for conversations down the road.

01:32:49.740 And so the man that you just described, he opens himself up and says, well, these people are from a completely different culture than me.

01:32:57.360 Maybe there's some valuable things I can learn from them, regardless of our differences in opinion.

01:33:03.280 And, and those things are of such value that they might be portable.

01:33:08.480 And it is unbelievably useful to approach the world in that manner, because then everyone you encounter is a goldmine of information, especially if they don't agree with you.

01:33:18.100 Because they're full of assumptions you don't have.

01:33:21.420 And, and you can find out something new as a consequence.

01:33:23.880 That's way better than just having your own opinions bolstered, which is reassuring, but doesn't offer you anything new.

01:33:36.320 Yeah, all those things are completely true.

01:33:38.960 I mean, and by definition, the unknown unknowns is really where the hidden stuff overlaps.

01:33:44.620 In any given interaction, the other side is hiding stuff.

01:33:48.360 I'm hiding stuff.

01:33:50.260 How do we know what happens when we, when, when the hidden overlap?

01:33:53.980 That's why the deal can always be made better.

01:33:58.620 I like that.

01:33:59.640 I forgot where the hidden overlap.

01:34:02.380 That's cool.

01:34:04.620 Now that's cool.

01:34:05.960 Yeah.

01:34:06.200 That is cool.

01:34:06.900 I think for another practical question.

01:34:12.500 Practical?

01:34:13.020 You guys didn't tell me this was going to be a practical interview.

01:34:15.540 I thought we were just going to have some fun.

01:34:17.660 Dad has fun.

01:34:19.140 I just ask practical questions repeatedly in my podcast.

01:34:23.340 So I'm glad we've got the combination.

01:34:25.460 But if you're trying to, like, I think the one negotiation that would benefit everyone is how to go to whoever they're working for and try and get more money.

01:34:34.680 Look for a raise.

01:34:35.540 And I know, especially if you're more agreeable, a lot of, a lot of people are worried about that and have no idea where to start.

01:34:41.320 So do you have tips for negotiating a raise?

01:34:45.060 Yeah, sure.

01:34:45.620 Get off the, get, you know, raise is the price term in any negotiation.

01:34:51.540 You know, your salary pays your bills, but it doesn't build your career.

01:34:56.740 You know, price takes care of the immediate problems.

01:34:58.740 What are your long-term problems?

01:34:59.920 Your long-term problems are how do you build a career?

01:35:01.880 Job negotiations should be about building your career, making yourself more valuable to the team.

01:35:07.480 And one of two things is going to happen.

01:35:09.800 Your salary is going to get drug along as a result.

01:35:13.540 Or if it's not, you're more valuable and you shop yourself to the highest bidder.

01:35:20.600 Now, how do you, how do you become more valuable?

01:35:23.580 You know, here's a phrase for every job negotiation, for every annual review.

01:35:32.300 How can I be guaranteed to be involved in the strategic projects that are critical to the company's future?

01:35:41.960 Instantaneous change in the way your employer views you.

01:35:48.040 Because when you go in and ask for a raise, empathy is about how does the other side see you?

01:35:54.120 The other side sees you as selfish.

01:35:57.340 And most employers, most bosses, whenever the employee comes walking in the door, they're after something for themselves.

01:36:03.820 You condition your boss that you're selfish.

01:36:05.940 You may not like that reality, but it's unfortunately the reality.

01:36:09.320 When you change their conversation to how can I help us all prosper, now suddenly your boss, your employer goes like, oh, now here's somebody I want to have around.

01:36:23.500 Here's somebody that's going to make my life better.

01:36:26.500 Conversation is instantly transformed.

01:36:28.440 Now, either you'll get more money, you'll have greater experiences, because also you don't want to be involved in a mundane at work.

01:36:35.340 You want to, if you're courageous, you want the big ticket item.

01:36:39.580 You want to have an impact.

01:36:41.760 And then, even if they don't give you a raise, the experience of being involved makes you five times more marketable than you were before the year started.

01:36:50.240 Yeah, so your advice, basically, is that you adopt a much broader mindset, which is something like, how can I be optimally successful in this company?

01:37:03.060 And what optimal success is going to require is being a key player in the most important things that the company does.

01:37:12.540 That's also going to be allied with the willingness to take on additional responsibility, not to see that as a native.

01:37:19.020 It's a positive.

01:37:20.060 People often avoid responsibility, but if you can take it on voluntarily, there's no difference between responsibility and opportunity if the company is operating properly.

01:37:30.300 Yeah, what is that responsibility, too?

01:37:34.420 You now, the highest levels of your company, now have an investment in making sure you succeed.

01:37:43.020 So you've just gone from being maybe somebody struggling by themselves.

01:37:47.520 Your responsibilities are critical to everybody's future, and everybody has a stake in you doing well because that's what you've taken on.

01:37:55.600 I mean, it's a virtuous cycle, if you will.

01:37:57.600 Yes, it also makes you difficult to replace and therefore much more effective in your salary negotiations.

01:38:03.740 Amen, absolutely.

01:38:04.820 You had some really nice, very practical tips for people negotiating their initial salary.

01:38:11.440 I thought two of these were really smart.

01:38:13.260 One was, if you're being interviewed for a new position and you're asked to define your starting salary, to offer a range, to say something like, well, people in this position are often offered $125,000 to $175,000 a year as a starting salary.

01:38:36.380 And to strategically do that so that your desired salary is in the bottom end of that range.

01:38:44.220 Are you going to fall for that?

01:38:46.140 Well, yes, exactly.

01:38:48.680 Well, it's a good question, yes, is the short answer according to the book.

01:38:52.420 But it's interesting that you would phrase it as fall for that, because that is the danger of techniques, is that they can become manipulative, you know?

01:39:02.380 So that's why I wanted to talk about the broader ethic.

01:39:04.900 And you also mentioned that it's smart for someone who's negotiating for their first position to also negotiate metrics for their first raise, which is even more important, right?

01:39:19.300 It's like you can negotiate for how your salary is going to increase in the future rather than what it's going to be right at the beginning.

01:39:25.400 But I like Michaela's question.

01:39:28.940 Would you regard that offering as a range, offering of a range, as manipulative?

01:39:37.320 Now, I'm not manipulative.

01:39:39.880 I mean, I'm a nice guy.

01:39:41.420 What are you guys talking about, what I regard that as manipulative?

01:39:45.100 You know, all right, so, and from some of the talks that I've heard you give, Jordan, and some other stuff, you know, there's always additional nuances and factors to consider.

01:39:55.020 And you want to stay off of one thing.

01:39:57.460 Like, first of all, just because what you're worth and what they can pay you might not line up.

01:40:04.240 And the experience for being there may be more valuable than the dollars.

01:40:08.880 I got to tell you right now, I go work for minimum wage to be Warren Buffett's assistant for a year.

01:40:14.480 I will get him coffee.

01:40:15.800 I would do anything.

01:40:16.800 And I might do it for free.

01:40:19.800 Because that would be a position where I would learn so much.

01:40:22.240 So, it's as much not handcuffing the other side and making you somebody they can't get based on the number, you're looking for a great marriage.

01:40:32.740 So, the range is to feel them out.

01:40:37.300 Understand also, when you give a range and the other side's numbers within that range, they're going to take the end that most favors them.

01:40:46.520 So, if you're going to give a range, you better be willing to accept the bottom number.

01:40:52.340 They're not going to head in the middle.

01:40:53.880 Right, right.

01:40:55.060 What are the practical aspects of ranges?

01:40:57.800 The question I had in relationship to that was exactly the manipulative angle.

01:41:01.860 I mean, I guess maybe you could answer it.

01:41:05.680 I would be happy with something in the range of $110,000 to $150,000.

01:41:11.640 And because if you have to point out that other companies are making offers in this range, you'd have to know for sure that other companies were.

01:41:21.920 I mean, there's no sense adding a falsehood to your negotiation for the purpose of picking up an advantage.

01:41:31.700 That seems to me to be a very bad strategy.

01:41:34.220 Falsehoods are a bad idea.

01:41:35.700 I'm against any sort of deception by commission or omission.

01:41:39.240 So, yeah, especially on that point.

01:41:42.420 Now, I wouldn't say something out I didn't know.

01:41:45.380 This accusation audit, we should maybe talk about that a little bit.

01:41:48.720 That was something I found.

01:41:51.340 Now, you derived that from your analysis of courtroom behavior of lawyers, if I remember correctly.

01:41:57.200 Well, it added to it.

01:41:58.480 I mean, you know, seeing it work in different areas, it definitely added to our thinking.

01:42:03.640 What is it, Jeff?

01:42:05.640 If you don't mind.

01:42:07.600 Yeah, well, you know, first of all, the lawyers would call it getting out the uglies in advance.

01:42:14.300 You know, if you've got to witness that there's some ugly things about it, you bring it up first.

01:42:18.720 Let the jury reconcile themselves to it before they listen to anything else.

01:42:22.780 You know, I worked with some great prosecutors when I was with the FBI Southern District in New York.

01:42:27.980 Now, in business, it's understanding what the negatives are in advance.

01:42:34.600 What's crazy is when we begin to proactively get out in front of them.

01:42:38.540 Like, if I get, let's say you got no negative about me at all.

01:42:42.640 But I'm getting ready to say something that you're not going to like.

01:42:47.220 I'll say, look, you're going to think I'm a real jerk for bringing this up.

01:42:51.400 And then when I bring it up, it'll have far less impact.

01:42:54.700 You'll never know what I headed you off from.

01:42:57.240 And that's why we get really aggressive with going after the negatives early on and calling them out.

01:43:02.000 Yeah, so the accusation audit allows you to lay out on the table all the weaknesses of your position and your character for that matter.

01:43:10.020 And so there's a variety of reasons that that might be useful.

01:43:13.500 One is that by indicating your willingness to admit to these faults, you show that the faults are small enough so that someone could admit to having them.

01:43:26.020 That's the first thing.

01:43:27.460 And the second thing is you show yourself as someone who's larger than their fault because they're willing to admit to them.

01:43:35.680 Right?

01:43:35.900 So you minimize the faults in some sense, even though you're presenting them accurately.

01:43:41.280 You minimize their emotional impact or you decrease their emotional impact.

01:43:45.620 And you increase the integrity of your own character at the same time.

01:43:51.960 And again, these are things that should be done honestly, not as a matter of technique.

01:43:56.020 If you do an accusation audit, it should be a genuine one.

01:44:01.220 And you should be doing it in part so that you, this is my understanding anyway, so that you are also as aware as you get, as aware as you need to be of the shortcomings you have in the negotiation.

01:44:13.680 Yeah.

01:44:14.120 I used to be up to you as a teenager.

01:44:16.200 I don't know if you remember.

01:44:17.060 I remember, I don't know if this was a technique or just an evil thing to do, but I can remember coming home and saying,

01:44:22.920 I, like, some sort of terrible thing I had, this isn't exactly what I'm saying, but some sort of terrible thing I'd done.

01:44:29.680 I was out drinking as we're doing this.

01:44:31.400 This happened.

01:44:32.280 Just kidding.

01:44:33.500 But this actually did happen.

01:44:35.060 And it would be, the second thing would be smaller.

01:44:37.200 And I found that that really worked on not getting in as bad as you're like, thank God that didn't happen.

01:44:42.960 That's not an accusation audit.

01:44:44.480 That's a, that's an anchoring technique.

01:44:48.140 Correct?

01:44:49.640 Well, you know, depending upon how you, how you deployed it, there's a combination of both there.

01:44:54.080 Yeah.

01:44:55.360 So we could talk about the anchoring technique as well.

01:44:59.880 We could.

01:45:00.980 I mean, it's you guys' show.

01:45:02.040 We'll talk about whatever you guys make me talk.

01:45:03.560 You got me a hostage here.

01:45:04.660 I'm your hostage.

01:45:05.260 It sounds like you feel like you're a hostage.

01:45:10.780 I'll take it all day long.

01:45:13.240 So what is, what is the anchoring technique?

01:45:15.720 Could you describe that?

01:45:17.780 Well, yeah, I mean, the anchoring technique, and we were very, you know, you can anchor on a number and we don't anchor on numbers.

01:45:26.060 But I will tell you, we, we anchor emotionally.

01:45:30.140 Like if somebody wants to know what, if somebody wants to know what I charge for consulting.

01:45:35.260 I'm going to say, hi, more than you have, more than you ever paid.

01:45:40.620 And we're not moving forward in this conversation until you ask me to give you the number.

01:45:44.620 Now, in that period of time that you, that we waited, you're going to think of some crazy number.

01:45:52.120 And when I give you my number, you're going to say like, ah, well, that isn't that bad.

01:45:58.400 What comes with that?

01:46:00.760 And we now made the number something that, that is irrelevant.

01:46:03.680 What's relevant really in all business negotiations is delivery.

01:46:10.700 And we over deliver.

01:46:12.140 So, the anchoring, that was a very subtle use of anchoring or description of anchoring there.

01:46:21.180 The anchoring technique occurs.

01:46:23.300 Imagine that you're always interpreting what's going on in a context of some sort.

01:46:28.220 And so, how big something is depends on the context.

01:46:32.380 And so, maybe you think a house, say, is worth $135,000.

01:46:38.940 And you find out the person wants $2.5 million for it.

01:46:44.040 Well, then if they come down to $500,000, you're going to think that's pretty reasonable.

01:46:49.540 Because they anchored you at $2 million, even though you thought to begin with, it was only $135,000.

01:46:56.100 So, that is what I did.

01:46:58.480 Nice.

01:46:58.960 Yeah, it's very, very treacherous and sneaky of you.

01:47:02.180 Yeah.

01:47:03.060 You still do that?

01:47:06.640 I don't think so.

01:47:07.880 I don't think so.

01:47:08.740 But I'm not as debaucherous as I once was.

01:47:10.940 Well, we've got to raise the level of your skills.

01:47:12.820 We've got to get you guys more money.

01:47:14.280 You know, we'll go offline and give you some coaching.

01:47:17.520 Next time, you'll be in one of five houses that you wanted to be in.

01:47:22.720 You'll have studios all over the planet.

01:47:24.540 You'll be in Fiji.

01:47:25.440 You'll be in Australia.

01:47:26.180 I need help with getting along or negotiating.

01:47:29.760 I get way too angry.

01:47:32.740 And my husband, he's amazing at it.

01:47:36.340 Like, he said, like, I read your book.

01:47:39.540 Well, he's a good negotiator.

01:47:40.940 He's married to you.

01:47:41.820 Well, that's what he said, too.

01:47:43.520 I was like, I don't get along with you very well.

01:47:45.180 And he's like, yeah, but look where we are.

01:47:47.780 Yes, you did win that round.

01:47:49.960 Okay, another hint you have.

01:47:58.240 Neutralize the negative and reinforce the positive.

01:48:02.120 What do you mean by that?

01:48:04.660 Yeah, well, simply calling out the negatives has a neutralizing effect on them to some degree every time, every single time.

01:48:13.060 Now, how much the effect is varies.

01:48:16.580 But again, if we go back to the neuroscience stuff and the amygdala is 75% negative, you neutralize the negative.

01:48:24.920 You get an opportunity for the positive to pick up some ground.

01:48:29.080 If I say, seems like you want to make a deal.

01:48:31.760 If you genuinely do, then that will reinforce that feeling.

01:48:37.600 Seems like you want a long-term relationship.

01:48:40.400 Seems like terms are important to you.

01:48:43.060 That will reinforce those positive aspects.

01:48:47.080 If I say, seems like you hate uncertainty.

01:48:51.420 The anxiety that you were feeling in the moment will diminish.

01:48:55.700 How much it diminishes, I may need to neutralize it several times to get it out of the way.

01:49:00.240 But again, our neuroscience wiring has laid out a lot of what people like you have instinctively come to know from your practice and your interaction with people where you guys were finding your way before we could map what was going on inside the brain.

01:49:16.780 Are you married, Chris?

01:49:20.200 There is an ex-Mrs. Voss, and I'm looking for the future ex-Mrs. Voss.

01:49:26.660 Ah.

01:49:27.360 Did your marriage fail as a consequence of poor negotiation?

01:49:31.920 No.

01:49:32.520 You know what?

01:49:33.020 It really failed as a consequence of what all relationships fail at.

01:49:36.580 It's no good or no bad, but a misalignment in core values.

01:49:40.760 And there were things that were important to me that weren't important to her and vice versa.

01:49:45.820 Business relationships, personal relationships.

01:49:48.700 At the end of the day, it's no good or no bad on either side.

01:49:52.420 It's just enough of a difference in core values that you're entitled to go your way, and I'm entitled to go mine, and nobody's wrong.

01:50:01.380 Right.

01:50:01.600 So, irreconcilable differences.

01:50:04.760 It's a good terminology for it, yeah.

01:50:07.680 Right.

01:50:07.940 Well, that used to be acceptable grounds for divorce.

01:50:11.940 Yeah.

01:50:12.620 Yeah.

01:50:12.920 I mean, you're not wrong.

01:50:13.800 I'm not wrong.

01:50:14.380 We just don't match up.

01:50:15.340 How have the skills that you learn as a tactical hostage negotiator affected your more intimate relationships?

01:50:28.060 You know, it's helped me to be more attentive.

01:50:34.280 You know, it's an ongoing process.

01:50:36.140 I'm still learning.

01:50:36.880 I'm still making mistakes.

01:50:38.620 I hope to be learning and making mistakes for at least...

01:50:42.340 I'd say I'm a third of the way through my life, maybe another 100 years.

01:50:47.860 But, you know, the idea of dialing into somebody and having a better long-term relationship and even thinking about that and getting better on it is very important to me.

01:50:56.120 So, yeah, I still make mistakes, but, you know, I don't want anybody to regret having had a relationship with me, although some do.

01:51:05.960 I think that happens to everybody.

01:51:07.360 How do you negotiate with someone who, say, in a hostage situation, who doesn't want to talk to you or isn't communicating?

01:51:16.620 Are there things you can do to get them to stop being so tight-lipped?

01:51:20.340 Yeah, well, yeah, take a step back.

01:51:23.300 If somebody's being tight-lipped, one or two things are happening.

01:51:27.940 First and foremost is probably they don't feel like talking to you is doing them any good because you're not listening.

01:51:34.000 People get tight-lipped because communication isn't doing them any good.

01:51:39.680 Now, they could be trapped in a corner and they could be helpless or you could be not listening.

01:51:45.320 There are three possibilities.

01:51:47.380 Another reason for being tight-lipped, tight-lipped people trust incredibly.

01:51:54.600 And they're a little bit afraid of how vulnerable they are because when they trust, they go all in.

01:52:02.800 And they've been hurt.

01:52:03.840 They've been badly hurt.

01:52:05.620 So, they're cautious because you resemble somebody that hurt them in the past.

01:52:10.400 So, if you think about what the possibilities are, first of all, you know, just adapt and begin, look, I haven't, clearly, I haven't won your trust yet.

01:52:20.320 Well, if it's not about trust, but they're helpless, they're going to correct.

01:52:25.680 They're going to say, no, no, it's not about trust.

01:52:27.200 It's because there's nothing I could do.

01:52:28.880 I'm trapped.

01:52:29.500 There's nowhere I could go.

01:52:31.040 But at that moment in time, now you're in dialogue.

01:52:34.680 Understanding what really is dialogue, even denial is dialogue.

01:52:37.640 Somebody opens, somebody who gives you more than a one-word response who was previously tight-lipped.

01:52:42.640 Now they're testing to see if you're going to listen, if you're going to understand, or if you're going to contradict or argue.

01:52:50.740 People are tight-lipped with other people who are argumentative.

01:52:55.580 Do you have any, or could you tell us one of your, I don't know if you're allowed to talk about this, but can you tell us a bit of the process of the no-future story?

01:53:03.980 Is that allowed?

01:53:06.060 Yeah, of course it's allowed.

01:53:07.800 There I was, terrorists to the left of me.

01:53:09.860 Yeah, exactly.

01:53:11.060 One of those.

01:53:13.400 You know, there were two straight cases in the Philippines, and we talk about both of them in the book.

01:53:19.960 One, the bad guy on the other side was sociopathic, raping, murdering, killing, straight-out-of-the-movie's terrorist.

01:53:29.580 The type of person that empathy is not supposed to work on.

01:53:34.880 Now, when do you know when the other side feels understood, when the other side says, that's right?

01:53:40.120 At a critical moment in that negotiation, and what I really was, was an international negotiation coach.

01:53:45.940 I'm coaching people in countries who are coachable.

01:53:49.440 And I'm coaching a guy named Benji, and he's eminently coachable.

01:53:53.180 We summarize the bad guy's point of view.

01:53:59.660 You guys have been oppressed for 500 years.

01:54:02.180 Americans are horrible.

01:54:04.060 Philippine government is horrible.

01:54:05.540 You know, everything, everything he said, 500 years worth of emotional baggage.

01:54:11.420 Bad guy literally says, that's right.

01:54:15.080 In that instance, a $10 million ransom demand evaporated, disappeared, went off the table.

01:54:22.760 A couple of months later, we're continuing in the negotiation.

01:54:26.400 No more monetary demands for the hostage.

01:54:28.720 None.

01:54:30.120 Non-monetary demands.

01:54:32.620 Continued application of what we now refer to as tactical empathy.

01:54:36.420 Hostage walks away on Monday, Thursday, the Thursday before Easter.

01:54:42.500 Walked away.

01:54:43.060 And back in the Philippines, three weeks later, connected back up with Benji.

01:54:47.440 We're working on another case.

01:54:49.260 He says, you're not going to believe we called me on the phone.

01:54:52.760 The terrorist called him on the phone to tell him that he respected him.

01:55:01.420 That's powerful stuff, because we were engaged with the same group again.

01:55:06.040 And the guy, the terrorist, the sociopath that called to express his respect for how he was treated, had lost everything in the negotiation.

01:55:19.020 They wanted $10 million.

01:55:20.360 They got zero.

01:55:22.820 So that stuff works.

01:55:24.900 It works on everybody.

01:55:26.160 It always leaves you better off.

01:55:28.040 Does that mean that this terrorist wasn't actually interested in the $10 million?

01:55:35.980 He was actually interested in being understood?

01:55:38.340 What would you take away from that?

01:55:40.020 You know, around the way through, you know, what the other side is always interested in is the best they could do.

01:55:44.660 One of the things that I learned about in really kidnapping negotiations globally, kidnapping is a commodities exchange.

01:55:53.080 They're businessmen on the other side.

01:55:55.500 And what they're really interested in is the best that they could do.

01:56:00.220 And the best you could do is often defined by how you feel during the process of the outcome.

01:56:05.320 So they wanted $10 million or the best that they could possibly do.

01:56:10.360 What does $10 million buy you?

01:56:12.500 In this instance, $10 million buys you influence.

01:56:15.860 They started asking for other things that bought them influence.

01:56:19.320 Let's get certain intermediaries involved, certain politicians.

01:56:23.000 We want access to people.

01:56:25.320 If we have more money, what do we spend that money on?

01:56:27.960 Ultimately, guns.

01:56:28.940 What do guns get you?

01:56:29.880 Guns get you influence.

01:56:31.800 Ultimately, people want soft power.

01:56:33.840 So when they started looking for something else, after having their anger being deactivated, they also sort of lost control of their operation, which created the circumstances of our hostage walking away.

01:56:51.660 Good things, it sounds ridiculous.

01:56:55.000 Good things fall out of the sky if you let them happen.

01:56:57.380 And that's one of the reasons to engage in this approach to negotiation, because something good is going to happen if you give it the opportunity.

01:57:06.460 Tell me what your company does exactly now.

01:57:09.800 I mean, you were hired by a business.

01:57:13.160 Yeah, well, we coach.

01:57:14.180 You know, we coach.

01:57:15.040 We get hired by businesses all the time, but we really coach high performers to better lives.

01:57:19.940 You coach the high performers specifically?

01:57:21.600 Well, yeah.

01:57:24.060 I mean, the people that are drawn to us are the high performers.

01:57:28.040 And our marketing is we're pointed much more at individuals and companies.

01:57:31.920 Again, we coach companies, but companies, by and large, are relatively dysfunctional.

01:57:38.420 Daniel Coyle in the Culture Code, I think he pointed out the stat that only 6% of corporate executives could actually recite their corporate values.

01:57:47.520 Well, and 40% of managers add negative net value to the company.

01:57:53.720 Yeah, there you go, right?

01:57:54.940 Yeah.

01:57:55.640 So, you know, these are people that are struggling with themselves, let alone new training.

01:58:00.880 But we coach people into that are making better lives for themselves and their families that are top performers.

01:58:09.100 I mean, typically, people that we coach in negotiations are cutting two or three life-changing deals a year as opposed to one every five or six years.

01:58:21.900 Everybody that we coach, that we were coaching last year, are wealthier right now than they were a year ago.

01:58:31.000 How do they find you?

01:58:32.440 Well, Black Swan Ltd is a website, B-L-A-C-K-S-W-A-N-L-T-D.com.

01:58:41.160 You know, the first step is a book, which, you know, you were kind enough to look through and appreciate and recognize how much that, you know, we're in sync with on our thinking.

01:58:53.660 And then come to the website.

01:58:56.260 We got free stuff downloaded.

01:58:58.080 Subscribe to our newsletter.

01:58:59.380 It's free.

01:59:00.000 It's actionable.

01:59:00.560 Give us a chance to put your family in a bigger house.

01:59:06.100 Send your kids to a better school.

01:59:08.660 Your book is titled Never Split the Difference.

01:59:11.780 Yeah.

01:59:12.180 So I always thought negotiation meant somebody has a point of view here and somebody has a point of view here and you want to find middle ground.

01:59:22.340 What exactly do you mean by never split the difference?

01:59:25.820 You know, it's a two-way street.

01:59:28.680 But split me the difference, first of all, is a fool's errand for a number of reasons.

01:59:36.180 Compromise.

01:59:37.840 You know, do you compromise your principles?

01:59:41.100 You know, there was a cartoon about a married couple a long time ago.

01:59:45.820 A husband and a wife are talking to each other and the husband says, let's compromise.

01:59:50.840 That way we'll both be unhappy.

01:59:53.220 You know, compromise is a way to guarantee that you're both unhappy.

01:59:56.360 Now, there's some people that say, well, a great negotiation is where both sides are a little unhappy.

02:00:01.380 Is a great marriage where both sides are unhappy?

02:00:03.680 That's a definition of long-term unhappiness.

02:00:07.900 So besides knowing what you want, don't compromise and meet in the middle.

02:00:14.880 You're both going to be unhappy.

02:00:16.000 Now, what the other side wants may be even better than what you had in mind.

02:00:23.040 A colleague, a friend, a mentor, somebody we do business with, a guy named Dan Sullivan, recently wrote a book called Who Not How.

02:00:30.220 He coaches the greatest entrepreneurs in the world.

02:00:33.800 He heard me give a talk, and he decided how he was going to take a position with his partners on his book deal.

02:00:39.220 The book that he just put out, the people that he collaborated with, he gave them every dime.

02:00:47.480 Because I said, sometimes what the other side wants, give them what they want.

02:00:53.080 The guys that he collaborated with on that book, giving them every dime from the book, because the amount of business it's going to develop for his company, which is going to be huge.

02:01:02.860 They are killing themselves for him.

02:01:04.740 And I was on a conference call with them, Ben Hardy and Tucker Max.

02:01:09.040 Tucker Max is a famous author in his own right.

02:01:12.100 Tucker says, Dan got every drop of our blood on this book.

02:01:18.120 Dan gave them every dime from the book, because he knew how much it was going to bring him long-term.

02:01:23.960 So never split the difference.

02:01:25.300 Also, the other side, give them their position, and they will kill themselves for you.

02:01:30.100 Yeah, so it's interesting, because compromise is a reasonable way of construing negotiation, I think, if you're deadlocked, and you have to make a decision, and there's also time pressure.

02:01:48.540 So then, it seems to me, under those circumstances, that would be a reasonable heuristic to say, well, we'll split the difference, and we'll both be unhappy.

02:01:55.060 No, how dare you? How dare you? No, no, no, no, no.

02:02:01.100 Let me develop that out for a moment, because there is something about negotiation that is inextricably associated with compromise.

02:02:11.320 I don't think that's the best way of conceptualizing negotiation as such, though.

02:02:16.380 See, because people are going to listen to this podcast, and they're going to think, no, no, no.

02:02:21.040 Sometimes you have to split the difference.

02:02:23.240 No.

02:02:24.100 Okay.

02:02:25.440 I knew this was going to be a...

02:02:26.620 I want to push you on that, because...

02:02:28.900 Push me.

02:02:29.460 Don't push me.

02:02:30.340 Hug me.

02:02:30.780 Give me a hug.

02:02:31.680 No, no, I'm going to go with the push, I think.

02:02:34.200 We can hug at the end, if it all goes well.

02:02:36.280 So, look, if you're negotiating with your child, seven years old, and he wants to go to bed at

02:02:47.420 9.30, and you want him to go to bed at 8.30, what's wrong with splitting the difference?

02:02:54.880 Why not, in that situation, split the difference?

02:02:56.820 Okay.

02:02:59.300 See, I'm just...

02:03:01.960 I don't think it's reasonable to throw out the idea that compromise is sometimes required

02:03:07.960 in the evaluation.

02:03:08.580 It's not your name-calling.

02:03:10.100 How dare you?

02:03:10.700 Will you call me any names now?

02:03:12.120 Well, maybe I'm just digging...

02:03:13.640 Maybe I'm just digging up the reasons for the marriage clash.

02:03:19.260 No.

02:03:20.060 Sorry.

02:03:20.240 Anyway.

02:03:26.200 Do you think there are any circumstances under which the proper way of conceptualizing negotiation

02:03:33.620 is as compromised?

02:03:36.820 All right.

02:03:37.040 So, here's the first problem with compromise.

02:03:39.140 And I know you're familiar with Danny Kahneman's prospect theory, lost things twice as much

02:03:44.020 as an equivalent gain.

02:03:46.160 The downward spiral we get into compromise, let's say you and I meet in the middle.

02:03:50.680 Neither one of us are going to feel we met in the middle.

02:03:55.200 Because I'm a human being and I'm wired so that lost things twice as much as an equivalent

02:04:00.180 gain.

02:04:01.180 And I believe Professor Kahneman actually gave a Nobel Prize winning behavioral economics

02:04:06.580 theory.

02:04:08.480 I think he said that he thinks it's actually five to seven times as much, and he and Amos

02:04:12.500 Tversky just said twice as much, so they get fewer arguments.

02:04:15.940 So, let's say we meet in the middle.

02:04:17.440 Let's say you give in 10.

02:04:18.700 Emotionally, you felt you gave 20.

02:04:23.840 And you're not going to feel whole until you hit me for 20.

02:04:28.660 Now, you've hit me for 20.

02:04:30.440 I'm not going to feel even until I've hit you for 40.

02:04:34.320 This is a guaranteed downward spiral.

02:04:37.940 Because we're human, it's impossible to compromise in a way that we both feel is fair, even if

02:04:47.200 the numbers are exactly the same.

02:04:49.140 Okay.

02:04:49.400 So, then you, it seems to me like you would, you're making the case that a negotiation that

02:04:54.800 ends in compromise actually failed.

02:04:58.640 Amen.

02:04:59.120 Okay, well, that's, that's worth thinking about.

02:05:03.420 Yeah.

02:05:03.680 Because that would mean that neither party was able to switch the conceptual framework around

02:05:09.100 so that both walked away in rich.

02:05:13.400 Exactly.

02:05:14.200 Both are going to walk away feeling hurt.

02:05:17.900 If she's a recipe for bad, bad, that ain't, that ain't going to sustain.

02:05:21.520 Does that imply, let's say then in business negotiation, if you can't negotiate an arrangement where you

02:05:30.060 both walk away in rich and you have to default to compromise, that you should probably walk

02:05:35.160 away.

02:05:35.540 Yeah, no deal is better than a bad deal.

02:05:41.300 Well, okay.

02:05:41.880 So, my question, I, I actually agree just from looking at it.

02:05:45.580 You're not going to call me names like your dad.

02:05:47.040 No, no, no.

02:05:47.780 I'm, I'm a very nice person.

02:05:49.840 That's, that's not even true.

02:05:51.380 My dad is a nice person.

02:05:52.580 I know, I'm just teasing the both of you.

02:05:55.080 I was looking forward to talking to you guys because I, I knew it was going to be fun.

02:05:59.160 Yeah, this is fun.

02:06:00.680 I'm glad that that weird comes out here.

02:06:02.520 So, I found that when I'm trying to negotiate things, I'm angry unless I change my mind or

02:06:11.900 get what I want, which I think is what you were saying.

02:06:15.060 Interesting thought, yeah.

02:06:16.300 I've never felt okay with a compromise.

02:06:19.820 So, so I kind of get what you're saying from there.

02:06:22.580 Now, putting a toddler to bed, my go-to is, hey, you're three and I'm older than you.

02:06:30.500 And eight o'clock is the bedtime.

02:06:32.480 Yeah, it's just power.

02:06:34.300 It's authority.

02:06:35.600 And it doesn't work.

02:06:37.000 Yeah, it's authority.

02:06:37.840 So, that's my go-to.

02:06:39.280 Now, Andre, my husband, negotiates with a three-year-old.

02:06:42.800 And I go, you're insane for negotiating with a three-year-old.

02:06:45.720 But he can talk her into deciding she wants to go to bed at eight, which is ideal.

02:06:50.600 But when do you use authority?

02:06:53.980 Or do you just think that's a bad tactic?

02:06:57.660 Well, using authority is bad for you long term.

02:07:04.720 And because then you, if it's with your children, you're conditioning them that they, you can't

02:07:13.600 win without authority.

02:07:14.460 Now, now, I would, I would ask you to consider in your interactions with your children over

02:07:19.900 bedtime, you're trying to get them to go, go to bed or you're trying to get them to think.

02:07:24.860 And I would offer the larger views to get them to think.

02:07:28.740 And then, then at what age, how do you stimulate that thinking?

02:07:32.840 Three is a little early, four to five.

02:07:36.580 But you're really teaching your kids to think all along the way.

02:07:41.000 You're showing them core values.

02:07:42.640 And if you're getting your way with your kid based on authority, what kind of a core value

02:07:48.320 are you showing them?

02:07:49.960 Now, there are times, you know, children need discipline.

02:07:52.740 Human beings, human beings need boundaries because it makes them feel secure.

02:07:57.460 Stability.

02:07:58.380 You could say that about 50 times, I would say.

02:08:01.560 Yeah, yeah.

02:08:02.320 Everybody needs stability, predictability.

02:08:07.240 You know, predictability turns into trust.

02:08:12.000 You know, your kids need to know if you're going to set a line and how you're going to

02:08:15.900 set that line.

02:08:17.140 And then, are you going to encourage them to think and become better people?

02:08:20.780 And we have, we, a lot of people use Never Split the Difference in their interactions with

02:08:25.740 their kids.

02:08:26.200 And we get funny feedback like, you know, I've cut 15 minutes off bedtime or, you know,

02:08:32.360 20 minutes off preparation time to go to bed.

02:08:35.280 And then the interactions with the children are different.

02:08:37.800 This is, this is human nature stuff.

02:08:39.420 This is really about human nature.

02:08:41.680 How about business stories?

02:08:44.800 Let's, let's, let's walk through, let's walk through like a particularly successful

02:08:48.960 transformation that you've seen on the clients.

02:08:52.320 Something like that.

02:08:53.960 Wow.

02:08:54.200 Yeah, well, the first one that springs to mind, you know, because my students at the,

02:09:00.740 at the business schools were my clients, my customers, I was coaching them into better

02:09:04.460 deals.

02:09:05.900 One of my students is, is doing a negotiation to come on with a company and he's a, he's

02:09:11.100 the best person for the job.

02:09:12.700 He's worth more than what they're offering and what, and the job is worth more than what

02:09:16.280 they're offering.

02:09:16.840 He said, we're at an impasse.

02:09:17.940 I can't get any more out of it.

02:09:19.200 I said, write down a list of questions that you would ask where the answer would be yes.

02:09:26.440 That would prove your case.

02:09:30.060 Now flip all those questions on its head and make every one of them a no oriented question.

02:09:37.120 And you'd be shocked what you can get away with getting somebody to say, no, you know,

02:09:43.320 do you, do you want me to fail?

02:09:45.680 You want to lose the best person for the job?

02:09:48.060 Do you want the person that takes this job to fail?

02:09:51.120 He flipped all his yes questions to no questions.

02:09:53.560 He came back to me, said that the, the, the salary offer that they put on the table was so

02:09:57.240 much higher than what they were authorized to do.

02:09:59.460 They had to go to the CFO to give him permission to do the deal.

02:10:04.700 Now the job negotiation.

02:10:06.060 Young man is a top analyst in his company, making boatloads of money for his company.

02:10:13.260 Wants to go back and renegotiate his, his compensation package.

02:10:18.220 The important thing here too, is the other side didn't, doesn't feel beaten.

02:10:22.300 He goes to his boss and he says, you know, I'm earning more, more, more for you than anybody

02:10:26.900 else is.

02:10:28.380 I deserve a race.

02:10:29.540 And his boss says, yeah, you know, those are all true, but I don't see how I can give you

02:10:34.280 a raise.

02:10:34.880 It's fair to everybody else who's been here longer than you and have put more of their

02:10:39.340 life into this company than you.

02:10:40.840 So you come back to me in two weeks.

02:10:43.880 If you can come up with a plan that shows how we can do this fairly, I'll give you the

02:10:47.280 raise.

02:10:49.220 He comes back two weeks later.

02:10:51.180 The boss said, did you come up with a plan?

02:10:52.980 And he said, no.

02:10:55.260 And the boss said, why not?

02:10:57.340 He says, well, you make a great point.

02:11:00.800 There's no way to do this.

02:11:02.360 That's fair to everybody else.

02:11:05.640 And the boss said, yeah, but it's not an issue of fairness to everybody else.

02:11:10.040 It's an issue of how profitable you are for the company.

02:11:13.520 And he gave him the deal, gave him a better salary compensation, which was his boss's idea

02:11:19.760 because he deactivated the negative thinking he had in his head, which was interfering with

02:11:24.200 it.

02:11:24.380 And he came back to us and he said, this is going to change my life.

02:11:30.180 And that's the kind of stuff we get from our clients all the time.

02:11:36.280 How big is your organization?

02:11:39.360 Right now, we've got 15 people in the company.

02:11:42.100 And do they all do coaching of the sort that you've been describing?

02:11:45.760 No, we've got five coaches.

02:11:49.340 And we've got some business development people.

02:11:51.500 You know, we've got back office people that keep our coaches and our business development

02:11:57.540 people on tap.

02:11:58.500 We've got a great team.

02:11:59.640 Sure, sure.

02:12:00.260 So if I came to you for your services, how would we start the process?

02:12:09.900 What would happen?

02:12:11.560 Would I have to come to you with like a specific business case or are you training me as an

02:12:16.880 individual more broadly?

02:12:19.660 Both.

02:12:20.460 We do both.

02:12:21.120 We get a lot of people that will come to us for coaching and specific deals.

02:12:26.260 And we'll build a strategy that's going to accelerate it to its best outcome in a third

02:12:35.320 of the time, probably less.

02:12:38.800 Now, the best outcome might be that you stop wasting your time in this deal and move on.

02:12:43.800 There's a phrase in sales, it's not a sin to not get the deal.

02:12:47.160 It's a sin to take a long time to not get the deal.

02:12:49.360 Yeah, yeah, right.

02:12:50.440 Absolutely.

02:12:51.220 And that's a, yeah, those are the deals where the terrible ones are where it looks like

02:12:57.200 something might happen.

02:12:58.880 Yeah.

02:12:59.380 Hope, why people say hope is not a strategy.

02:13:01.660 Hope might just kill your profitability because you're never going to get the deal.

02:13:04.680 So, we'll coach you through specific deals.

02:13:08.600 And typically, almost everybody that we've coached in a deal not only wants more for them, but

02:13:13.160 they want more for people in our company.

02:13:14.840 We just, one executive we've been coaching for a year just signed up all of his executives

02:13:19.740 for individual coaching because we're making them so much money.

02:13:22.380 Yeah, well, one of the things you mentioned here too is that no, when the person you're

02:13:29.480 negotiating with says no, that isn't necessarily such a bad thing and you should stop thinking

02:13:33.900 that it's a bad thing so it doesn't scare you.

02:13:35.780 And just one of the advantages to no, also, no tell, if it's true, no tells you what a

02:13:42.220 dead end actually is.

02:13:44.500 And so, if it's a genuine no, you don't have to go sniffing down that trail anymore.

02:13:48.400 And that can stop you from death by hope, which really, can really be a catastrophe.

02:13:54.060 That's right.

02:13:55.360 They give you the magic words.

02:13:56.980 You hit the nail on the head.

02:13:57.880 Yeah, not wasting your time.

02:14:01.820 And since, since we've really, and this has been since the book came out, it's something

02:14:06.720 we call proof of life or the favor of the fool.

02:14:09.800 If you don't know who the fool in the game is, it's probably you.

02:14:13.840 If you're the fool in a game, you got to find out, get out of the game, go play with somebody

02:14:17.400 else.

02:14:18.740 At least 20% of, 20% of all business opportunities are fool in the game.

02:14:24.240 And what would happen if you got rid of 20% of the deals where you're just spinning your

02:14:29.840 wheels?

02:14:30.540 You don't even have to get any better.

02:14:32.780 You just get, get rid of the stuff that's killing your time.

02:14:36.840 Certain things like that can really accelerate your success.

02:14:40.420 Any tips on how you might identify pitfalls like that?

02:14:44.920 I mean, a clear failure is merciful in some sense, as we've been, we've been skirting around

02:14:53.180 that definition.

02:14:53.900 Clear failure is merciful.

02:14:55.880 It's, it's chasing the thing that never appears that kills you.

02:15:00.180 How do you, how do you start understanding when you should quit?

02:15:05.700 Well, the more focused in a business interaction, more focused somebody is on price, like right

02:15:10.760 off the bat, if they're pushing you really, really hard for price.

02:15:15.460 90% of the time you're the competing bit, you know, and the world is, even though I live

02:15:21.000 in Vegas, the world has lost Vegas rules.

02:15:22.780 You got to get off of the, of the, out of the game where you're winning 15% of the time

02:15:26.800 and you got to get into the game where you're winning 70 to 75% of the time.

02:15:31.200 The more they're pushing you on price, it's a data point you're competing bit.

02:15:35.680 So that's your first instinct.

02:15:40.020 So your second, your second fiddle right there.

02:15:43.140 Right.

02:15:44.100 Now, the, now the next thing is I, you ask somebody what we refer to as a visioning question.

02:15:50.140 If they have any intention of moving forward with you, which makes you the favorite, then

02:15:56.880 you say, all right, so how would, where would we, how would we move on from here?

02:16:01.600 If they are at complete loss for words, then they have no intention of moving on with you

02:16:08.580 because they didn't envision it before the conversation.

02:16:10.780 Now that's, I really liked that.

02:16:12.360 So that's really smart.

02:16:13.900 So you, you, you ask the person that you're discussing the situation with what, how they

02:16:20.940 would envision this relationship if it was successful.

02:16:24.300 And if they can't tell you anything, then, then it isn't obvious at all what they're doing

02:16:31.060 in the negotiation.

02:16:32.820 They might be doing what you said with regards to price.

02:16:35.500 They're playing you off against their, their true supplier, let's say.

02:16:39.260 Right.

02:16:39.380 Right.

02:16:40.500 Right.

02:16:41.000 So what you're negotiating that it's such, it's such a useful way of thinking about that.

02:16:45.520 I mean, you know, when you're starting a business with someone, it's pretty self-evident

02:16:49.940 that you need to develop a shared vision.

02:16:52.560 Otherwise you wouldn't be undertaking that adventure.

02:16:57.580 Let's say it's really easy when you have a business to think that what you're doing

02:17:02.980 is selling, you know, you have a product and you're selling it, but it's much more useful.

02:17:09.920 I think to think about it as if you are expanding your business and taking on your new buyer as

02:17:17.180 a partner, because that's actually what you're doing works properly.

02:17:20.980 So you're inviting them into your business and that means your business has to shift and

02:17:26.900 change.

02:17:27.440 And so does theirs.

02:17:28.440 And you both have to see that as a positive thing.

02:17:32.220 And if that isn't happening, then the sale isn't going to occur because you're actually

02:17:38.560 not selling.

02:17:39.420 You're actually trying to build a relationship.

02:17:42.200 Right.

02:17:42.380 Right.

02:17:42.620 And you know what?

02:17:43.240 Even if they want to proceed with you, you might not want that relationship.

02:17:46.180 That's part of it, too.

02:17:48.040 Yes, absolutely.

02:17:49.440 They lay out a vision where, you know, what they're doing is not good for you.

02:17:54.980 Oh, yeah.

02:17:55.500 I mean, that's where yes is a big problem is you end up with.

02:17:58.740 I mean, I had a business deal arranged with a large corporation in the United States 10

02:18:07.460 years ago.

02:18:08.020 We were thrilled about it.

02:18:09.120 And then the CEO got fired a week later and the deal just fell apart.

02:18:16.180 We'd be negotiating it for about a year and a half.

02:18:18.440 And it was literally on his desk to sign and he was replaced.

02:18:24.160 And so it just killed it.

02:18:26.340 But a month and a half later, we were unbelievably relieved because we realized that we would

02:18:31.500 have had to have done all sorts of work for the company that we would have never got paid

02:18:35.520 for.

02:18:35.840 And it would have taken on a responsibility that was completely incommensurate with the

02:18:40.760 rewards.

02:18:42.600 And so that was a good situation where yes would have been a catastrophe.

02:18:46.260 So I guess partly what you have to do is not assume that no is a disaster and not assume

02:18:51.460 that yes is a blessing.

02:18:53.420 You have to sit back and see if the vision, as you pointed out, is worthy of pursuit and

02:19:01.820 that you're both committed to it.

02:19:03.680 Yeah.

02:19:03.980 What's the how?

02:19:05.080 What's the how?

02:19:05.880 How is this?

02:19:06.260 How is yes is nothing without how?

02:19:08.660 I mean, how is everything?

02:19:11.420 Or yes, it's even dangerous without how?

02:19:13.420 Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, yes without how is a train wreck coming at you is however long

02:19:20.460 that relationship lasts.

02:19:21.840 It's going to it's going to be blood money.

02:19:24.320 It's going to be painful.

02:19:25.460 It's going to take years off your life.

02:19:26.920 You're going to want that time back.

02:19:28.740 Yeah, exactly.

02:19:29.640 Exactly.

02:19:30.200 An opportunity you wish you didn't have.

02:19:33.040 Yeah.

02:19:33.700 Yeah.

02:19:34.600 And, you know, we have those occasionally.

02:19:36.300 That's why we decide, you know, we have bad relationships.

02:19:38.620 So, look, I used to I did a lot of executive coaching and like you, I my clientele were

02:19:48.320 high performers.

02:19:50.500 We asked the companies with whom we work to send us their high performance and we would

02:19:56.500 increase their productivity.

02:19:58.560 Now, I basically work for the individual, not for the company.

02:20:02.760 Right.

02:20:02.880 And my goal was to make their life better on the assumption that that would make them

02:20:09.500 more productive.

02:20:11.880 And so I did counterintuitive things, for example, with the lawyers I worked with, most

02:20:17.500 of them took far more vacations after they worked with me for a few months, but their

02:20:22.360 productivity went up.

02:20:23.960 Yeah.

02:20:24.060 But our our strategy, my strategy was help the person develop an overarching vision for

02:20:31.760 their life.

02:20:32.880 Um, that was well balanced and iterable, you know, if your life has to be sustainable,

02:20:39.580 if it's, if it's, if it's too loud, it has to be sustainable.

02:20:47.180 If it's not sustainable, by definition, it leads you downhill and to be sustainable, it

02:20:53.300 has to be developed in a variety of areas.

02:20:55.720 You can't sacrifice one thing to another too greatly or you'll fall apart across time.

02:20:59.620 How much do you think success in business and success in negotiation is dependent on the

02:21:07.040 development of a global vision for, for what constitutes a successful life?

02:21:12.300 Because if you're negotiating, you need to know why you're negotiating.

02:21:17.000 And that's a deep question.

02:21:18.180 Why?

02:21:18.440 Yeah.

02:21:19.820 Uh, I think completely, you know, where, where is this taking me?

02:21:22.900 Vision drives the decision, decision drives the action.

02:21:26.360 It's, it's astonishing what people will do if they feel it's taking them someplace wonderful.

02:21:31.100 Yes.

02:21:33.320 And they won't do the simplest things that they find, feel either useless or taking them to

02:21:39.820 a bad place.

02:21:40.720 Yes.

02:21:41.060 Well, and thank God for that, right?

02:21:42.760 Because why should you do something unless it's taking you somewhere better?

02:21:46.460 Right.

02:21:47.060 Yeah.

02:21:47.540 Yeah.

02:21:47.740 So yeah, the vision, vision drives the decision.

02:21:50.360 Where's this taking us?

02:21:52.300 And, and that, and that is almost all, and it's in the head anyway.

02:21:56.680 That is so, you know, if interacting with me.

02:22:01.100 It just makes you happier to start with.

02:22:04.400 You're going to want more of it.

02:22:05.600 If you know that I'm dedicated to your success as well as my own, then you can trust me with

02:22:12.920 your secrets and we'll come up with a better deal because you see that I'm a great long-term

02:22:19.580 partner.

02:22:20.780 What's a long-term relationship?

02:22:22.180 I'm dedicated to you being happier.

02:22:25.080 I mean, it's one of the reasons that people in my company, we love working together because

02:22:29.760 we love helping people, plus we're all helping each other to a better life.

02:22:33.960 Yeah.

02:22:34.120 So I was going to ask you about your vision.

02:22:36.020 Like if you had to articulate your vision, what, what would that be?

02:22:40.300 What would the articulation be?

02:22:42.840 The vision for, for, for, for me, for my life or for, for the people that I work with?

02:22:47.960 Well, both, both.

02:22:49.660 I'd be interested in both of those.

02:22:50.820 Your, your life specifically, but also that obviously because you work with these other

02:22:55.020 people, your vision of yourself has to have their, has implications for how you're interacting

02:23:02.080 with them.

02:23:04.100 So first of all, for people to be happier in their day-to-day interactions.

02:23:08.800 Jane, what do you mean by, what do you mean by happy?

02:23:10.920 I have a specific reason for asking this because you already mentioned that people are much

02:23:16.420 more averse to loss than they are, um, thrilled by gain.

02:23:21.480 Right.

02:23:21.580 So a lot of times when people talk about happy, what they mean is less misery rather than more

02:23:27.920 positive emotion, right?

02:23:29.140 They mean less misery, less uncertainty, less pain, less threat, less fear.

02:23:33.660 Right, right.

02:23:34.300 So when you say happy, do you mean happier?

02:23:37.600 Do you mean more secure and yeah, I mean, you know, we are, uh, across the board, the

02:23:46.500 people that we, that we work with, that I work with, that, that, that we coach, we enjoy

02:23:52.600 what we're doing.

02:23:53.660 Um, we don't feel like we're doing anything, anybody's expense, right?

02:23:58.000 We don't feel like we're exploiting anybody.

02:24:00.000 Our clients on a regular basis are not just making more money, but enjoying their jobs

02:24:08.140 more.

02:24:10.160 And we, weekly, we had a meeting earlier today where we're sort of wrapping up 2020, where

02:24:18.160 we completely pivoted our business, had a ball dealing with the crisis because we work so

02:24:24.160 well together as a team and are actually serving more people.

02:24:30.720 And, you know, it's not our primary objective, but we're more profitable this year than we

02:24:36.980 were last year, which means we get to do more next year.

02:24:40.220 We get to meet more cool people.

02:24:41.480 The people, the people that we meet on a regular basis who want to get better and want to make

02:24:46.140 the world a better place are fun people to be around.

02:24:50.200 Oh yeah.

02:24:50.380 That's a good deal.

02:24:51.480 That's a good deal.

02:24:54.600 Yeah.

02:24:55.060 So, you know, like I mentioned Dan Sullivan earlier, he's an interesting cat.

02:25:00.740 You know, everybody, Steven Kotler.

02:25:04.180 I get interactions with Steven Kotler, one of the most interesting guys on the planet,

02:25:07.780 because he's about making the world a better place.

02:25:10.480 These are fun people to be around.

02:25:13.620 You're fun.

02:25:14.400 Am I fun?

02:25:18.540 I think it's fun.

02:25:19.740 I'm fun when I'm on.

02:25:21.980 I'm not fun when I'm not on.

02:25:24.960 Do you have some questions?

02:25:26.220 I think, I think it's actually time.

02:25:29.180 And I think, I think we're done.

02:25:30.580 So thank you so much for coming on.

02:25:33.320 I was incredibly interested to talk to you.

02:25:35.720 I really liked the fact that I really liked the never split the difference.

02:25:42.080 That really, that really resonated with me.

02:25:45.660 Because whenever I do some sort of compromise, I feel like I've lost.

02:25:50.680 It doesn't work.

02:25:51.620 I also really enjoyed the, if you know that never split, if you know to never split the

02:25:57.840 difference, then maybe you should just walk away.

02:26:00.660 And I think that's really important to know.

02:26:02.620 That maybe you don't want to, if you can't come to a compromise and make both people happy,

02:26:06.360 maybe you don't want to have a relationship with that person.

02:26:08.940 I think that's really valuable.

02:26:13.640 Where, you mentioned a couple of places people can find you.

02:26:18.420 What are your social media?

02:26:20.780 All right.

02:26:21.380 So I'm at the FBI negotiator on Instagram.

02:26:25.860 But really the best way for us to help people as much as they want, we got, we got a free

02:26:30.440 negotiation newsletter we put out.

02:26:33.400 It's not so important that it's free.

02:26:35.120 What's really what's best about it is concise, short read.

02:26:38.120 I mean, some people put out newsletters and there are 15 articles.

02:26:41.100 You don't know what to do with them.

02:26:43.140 The newsletter is a gateway to everything we have.

02:26:45.400 And if I may, for the website is blackswanltd.com, B-L-A-C-K-S-W-A-N-L-T-D.com.

02:26:56.340 We've got a text to sign up function also, which is simple.

02:27:00.400 It only works in the U.S.

02:27:01.400 And I'm sure you've got a global audience.

02:27:02.940 But in the U.S., if you text to the number 33777-33777, send a message, black swan method,

02:27:12.720 three words, capitalization doesn't matter, space between each word.

02:27:18.580 You'll get a dialogue box back if you want, only if you want.

02:27:22.800 Sign up for the newsletter.

02:27:24.480 We'll help you.

02:27:25.420 We'll move you forward.

02:27:26.140 We love helping people provide, just have more fun and have more.

02:27:33.820 I'm fine, yeah.

02:27:34.900 I need that.

02:27:36.840 It was great meeting you.

02:27:38.660 It was an absolute pleasure being on with both of you guys.

02:27:41.580 Lovely talking with you.

02:27:43.140 Yeah.

02:27:43.380 And good luck, eh?

02:27:44.120 I hope that you do continue succeeding in your attempts to help people help themselves

02:27:50.720 and by helping to make the world a better place, cliched as that might sound.

02:27:54.960 Unless it's replaced by a better philosophy, it's a pretty good one.

02:27:59.580 It'll do, yeah.

02:28:00.420 It'll do.

02:28:01.460 It'll do.

02:28:02.180 Yeah.

02:28:02.480 My pleasure.

02:28:03.120 Thanks, guys.

02:28:03.580 Thank you.

02:28:24.960 When a woman experiences an unplanned pregnancy, she often feels alone and afraid.

02:28:40.980 Too often, her first response is to seek out an abortion, because that's what left-leaning

02:28:45.380 institutions have conditioned her to do.

02:28:47.420 But because of the generosity of listeners like you, that search may lead her to a pre-born

02:28:52.360 network clinic, where, by the grace of God, she'll choose life, not just for her baby,

02:28:57.180 but for herself.

02:28:58.700 Pre-born offers God's love and compassion to hurting women and provides a free ultrasound

02:29:02.880 to introduce them to the life growing inside them.

02:29:05.860 This combination helps women to choose life, and it's how pre-born saves 200 babies every

02:29:11.040 single day.

02:29:11.640 Thanks to the Daily Wire's partnership with Pre-born, we're able to make our powerful

02:29:15.900 documentary, Choosing Life, available to all on Daily Wire+.

02:29:19.880 Join us in thanking Pre-born for bringing this important work out from behind our paywall,

02:29:25.120 and consider making a donation today to support their life-saving work.

02:29:29.000 You can sponsor one ultrasound for just $28.

02:29:31.840 If you have the means, you can sponsor Pre-born's entire network for a day for $5,000.

02:29:36.320 Make a donation today.

02:29:38.420 Just dial pound 250 and say the keyword baby.

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02:29:43.380 Or go to preborn.com slash Jordan.

02:29:46.100 That's preborn.com slash Jordan.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - January 03, 2021

Chris Voss with Jordan and Mikhaila Peterson

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