The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - Conservative Failings and the Reform UK Party ｜ Nigel Farage

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00:00:50.980 Hello, everybody. In the last week, we've made arrangements with Nigel Farage, who is the man who took Great Britain out of the European Union with Brexit,

00:01:05.720 and who now runs a political party in the UK called Reform.

00:01:08.960 The aim of reform is to shake the conservatives up, let's say, and return the classic liberals and the moderate right to something approximating,

00:01:23.700 what would you say, an orientation that's actually based on the fundamental principles of Western civilization itself.

00:01:31.980 of Judeo-Christianity at the bottom, the democracy that emerges out of that as a consequence of the concept of the sovereignty

00:01:40.400 and divine import of the individual, the family above that, the community, the city, the state, the nation, under God,

00:01:50.880 that entire subsidiary structure to return to an orientation that makes that primary and the foundation of identity itself.

00:01:59.120 Nigel Farage's party is making great headway in the UK, surprising headway, and also among young people.

00:02:09.680 We had the opportunity today to take 45 minutes just prior to the upcoming UK election to discuss, well, who Mr. Farage is and just what the hell he's up to.

00:02:21.000 So tune in for that.

00:02:23.640 Hello, Mr. Farage. It's good to see you again.

00:02:26.080 Hello there. Thank you.

00:02:26.960 Yeah, so we've got 45 minutes for you to explain to everybody just what you think's going on in Great Britain, in the UK in general,

00:02:35.700 and then also to delve into the details of the election that's coming up right away.

00:02:42.820 Thank you.

00:02:43.580 Well, we had really a massive political event happened eight years ago last week.

00:02:48.360 It was called Brexit. 0.89

00:02:49.180 It happened after a 25-year grassroots campaign, a campaign for sovereignty, a campaign for borders against a wholly globalist establishment,

00:03:01.260 and that included all of our main political parties, pretty much all of our newspapers, all of our trade unions,

00:03:08.420 all of our big employers' organisations, all of our big banks, all of our state institutions,

00:03:15.760 all of whom thought that membership of the European Union was the right place for the United Kingdom to be.

00:03:24.020 And I took a view almost exactly 30 years ago when I decided this was wrong,

00:03:32.200 that actually the nation state is the essential building block within people want to live,

00:03:38.760 that it's a building block that they're prepared to pay their taxes to.

00:03:42.620 It's the building block in extremists that they're prepared to put a military uniform on to defend,

00:03:49.480 because I've always taken the view that the nation state really is like an extension of your family, your community.

00:03:56.240 It's your country.

00:03:57.620 So I spent a quarter of a century from the tiniest of little acorns campaigning against the establishment view,

00:04:07.580 and it took a long time to get any traction.

00:04:10.820 But in the end, it was really the question of borders,

00:04:14.040 because we had a total open border with over 400 million people in the continent of Europe,

00:04:20.300 and that was the issue that really lit the blue touch paper.

00:04:24.660 Sovereignty on its own, even though I think, you know, self-government, parliamentary democracy,

00:04:31.040 even though I believe that to be an absolutely fundamental principle,

00:04:34.500 kind of people said, well, it doesn't really affect my life directly.

00:04:38.880 But it was when we started to see immigration numbers coming into Britain on a scale

00:04:44.140 that have never been comprehended over the last couple of thousand years,

00:04:48.780 that really the population started to wake up.

00:04:51.080 So we had this extraordinary shock that took place on June 23rd, 2016, Brexit.

00:04:58.260 And the public voted very clearly for us to leave.

00:05:01.260 Our parliament didn't like the result.

00:05:05.180 And many of them spent the next three years trying to get us to rerun the referendum.

00:05:11.500 Now, we managed to avoid that.

00:05:13.140 In the end, after years of wrangling, and frankly, I think probably the most shameful period

00:05:20.300 in the entire history of a British parliament.

00:05:23.680 In the end, on the 31st of January 2020, we left the European Union.

00:05:29.260 Now, in constitutional terms, that's probably the biggest event that has taken place,

00:05:35.320 I'd guess, for about 300 years.

00:05:37.680 And you would have thought that was that, because the Conservative,

00:05:41.300 at least that's the name of the party, they're called the Conservative Party,

00:05:47.300 they got a massive 80-seat majority, a majority not seen from the Conservatives in Britain

00:05:54.540 since the time of Thatcher.

00:05:56.380 And you've got to go back to the mid-1980s for that.

00:06:00.040 And the hopes and aspirations of those that voted for them,

00:06:03.240 and I gave them considerable help with that victory,

00:06:07.040 the thoughts and aspirations were that, with self-government,

00:06:11.560 the numbers coming into Britain would reduce.

00:06:14.580 With self-government, illegal immigration could be effectively dealt with.

00:06:20.220 And another crucial group, 5.5 million men and women running small businesses,

00:06:27.320 acting as sole traders, believed that the massive regulatory rulebook

00:06:32.840 that had been put on top of everybody, taking away their time, their effort,

00:06:39.880 that that could be reduced so that we could encourage entrepreneurship,

00:06:43.680 we could encourage real economic growth.

00:06:47.020 And so the Conservatives were riding on the crest of a wave,

00:06:49.920 and many said, well, I mean, Boris Johnson will be Prime Minister for 15 years.

00:06:54.120 And what has happened over the last five years, in my view,

00:06:57.820 is they have betrayed all of those hopes in absolutely every way.

00:07:02.840 Elected as Conservatives, but they've governed as metropolitan Liberals.

00:07:08.680 They introduced net zero policies.

00:07:11.460 I mean, so insane was some of it,

00:07:13.560 that Boris even suggested that we take out of production 30% of our farmland

00:07:18.500 and rewild it.

00:07:21.260 When it came to getting rid of regulations,

00:07:24.120 basically nothing was done.

00:07:25.760 And in fact, arguably, arguably, for many sectors,

00:07:29.940 they're now living under more bureaucratic control now

00:07:32.660 than they were as members of the European Union.

00:07:36.660 And the big one, the big one is legal immigration.

00:07:40.300 And just to give people some context on this,

00:07:42.700 in the late 1940s, it was very much felt that we owed a huge debt

00:07:47.900 to the British Empire, British Commonwealth,

00:07:51.400 because in two world wars,

00:07:53.680 40% of the contribution came from the Commonwealth.

00:07:59.280 Canada, of course, your home country,

00:08:01.400 being one of the most remarkable of them.

00:08:04.320 And so began legal immigration from the West Indies and elsewhere.

00:08:09.560 And it ran all through the late 40s, the 50s, the 60s, the 70s, the 80s, the 90s,

00:08:16.760 right up until Tony Blair got in.

00:08:19.020 It ran all through that period with a net migration level

00:08:22.880 of 30,000 to 40,000 people a year.

00:08:27.660 And we genuinely did not have, in the late 1990s,

00:08:33.140 divided communities.

00:08:35.680 Mr. Blair opened the doors in the most remarkable way.

00:08:39.560 And during his time as Prime Minister,

00:08:43.100 our population increased by nearly 3 million

00:08:45.080 as a direct result of legal migration.

00:08:49.980 And then the Conservatives in 2010, in their manifesto,

00:08:53.580 in 2015, 2017, 2019,

00:08:56.260 in four consecutive manifestos they promised,

00:08:58.880 they would reduce net migration

00:09:00.340 back to its historic levels of tens of thousands a year.

00:09:05.460 Well, let's take Rishi Sunak's premiership, shall we?

00:09:07.580 In the last two years, a net 1.5 million have come.

00:09:14.580 I mean, these are numbers that are just beyond anyone's imagination.

00:09:19.380 Our population is now up by 10 million since Blair came to power.

00:09:24.080 And what that has meant is that life,

00:09:27.880 the quality of life for people on these islands has diminished, has changed.

00:09:32.800 You can't get access to a doctor's appointment.

00:09:35.940 Travelling on the roads is, I mean, frankly, almost impossible.

00:09:39.520 Housing.

00:09:40.520 Do you know, we have to build in our country a new home every two minutes

00:09:45.880 just to cope with legal migration.

00:09:49.580 And the British public are saying this is wrong and it's frankly not fair.

00:09:53.960 And that our kids, you know, can't even aspire to owning a home

00:09:58.180 in the way that their parents and grandparents and great-grandparents did.

00:10:01.980 So a feeling of real disconnect, a feeling of real betrayal,

00:10:06.360 a Conservative Party slumping in the opinion polls,

00:10:10.260 a Labour Party rising because kind of in a first-past-the-post electoral system,

00:10:14.860 and that's what happens.

00:10:15.640 And I just decided, Jordan, and I, you know,

00:10:19.360 having spent 25 years of my life fighting for us to be sovereign,

00:10:22.840 free and independent, and having been victorious,

00:10:25.600 I just decided that I just couldn't, I couldn't just stand aside

00:10:30.160 in what was this snap general election called when nobody really expected it.

00:10:35.580 And I knew that I'd only have four months to pick up a party,

00:10:41.140 Reform UK, that was virtual in many ways.

00:10:44.740 I mean, no money, no structure, no substance.

00:10:48.200 But I just decided, you know what, if we're going to have self-government,

00:10:52.660 let's exercise it properly.

00:10:54.640 Let's exercise it in the interests of our people.

00:10:58.160 So I decided a month ago I would, you know, plant my flag in the sand

00:11:02.220 and put myself forward for the election.

00:11:05.000 So that is why I'm here.

00:11:07.200 I think the disconnect that exists between our political and media class in London

00:11:12.700 and the rest of the country has never been bigger.

00:11:15.440 And this is, for me, just the first step.

00:11:19.440 This is a five-year project.

00:11:21.160 We're really aiming at the 2029 general election.

00:11:26.000 What I intend to do, hope to do, after we get over this hurdle on Thursday,

00:11:30.580 is to build a mass movement across the country for change.

00:11:35.040 A populist mass movement.

00:11:37.360 All right, so I have a bunch of questions.

00:11:39.740 Let's start with the political situation with regard to the Conservatives.

00:11:45.140 So the first question, I'll ask you about three and then let you answer those.

00:11:48.980 What do you think it was that alerted you so long ago to the dangers of the EU?

00:11:56.720 And the reason I'm asking that is because there was reason for people to be hopeful about the EU project.

00:12:04.100 The fact that you could travel in Europe without passports from country to country was interesting.

00:12:09.420 There was a while when there seemed to be a real sheen on the EU project.

00:12:12.960 And there was, of course, concerns after the First and Second World Wars that the project of nationalism had flaws built into it,

00:12:22.300 especially on the European side that were so massive that some other form of government might reasonably be attempted.

00:12:30.780 The world is unifying more, too, because we communicate with each other much more.

00:12:34.600 Now, you were obviously very early in your apprehension that distributing power farther up the hierarchy to a unified, say, European government or the UN or the WEF, for that matter, had serious flaws.

00:12:51.700 So what do you think it was that made you alert to that so much before anyone else really cottoned on to it?

00:12:59.820 Well, I'm a sort of amateur historian.

00:13:01.820 I love history, and I do think there are things we can learn from history.

00:13:06.320 Sadly, we rarely do, but there are things we can learn.

00:13:10.160 And here's the point.

00:13:11.520 I mean, yes, of course, you know, in 1870, the Germans invade France.

00:13:16.760 In 1914, the Germans invade France.

00:13:20.180 In 1940, the Germans invade France.

00:13:23.640 And so this idea came around that if you unify France and Germany, and of course, it began with a coal and steel pact in 1951.

00:13:33.340 If you unify France and Germany, if you unify the whole of Europe, those nationalistic factors that caused war would go away.

00:13:43.740 And we could live in peace.

00:13:46.300 And I completely understand why people would have thought that after two catastrophic wars.

00:13:52.760 And think of the bombing, the civilian deaths, the Holocaust, all the awful things that did take place.

00:13:59.520 But it was based on a fundamental misunderstanding.

00:14:01.920 And the misunderstanding was that the existence of nation states led to war, but they made one fundamental error.

00:14:11.540 And it's this.

00:14:13.080 Provided the nation state is acting as a functioning democracy, you don't have that problem.

00:14:21.180 There is no example.

00:14:22.780 There is no example in history of one functioning democracy going to war with another.

00:14:29.240 And far from being a project of peace, I took the opposite view.

00:14:33.780 I took the view in about 1990, really.

00:14:37.160 I took the view that if you take away from nation states their ability to determine their own future and hand it up to a higher authority over which you have little or no say,

00:14:50.220 far from dampling nationalistic fervor, it's likely to increase nationalistic fervor.

00:14:56.620 And here's the thing why democracy works.

00:14:58.500 Democracy works because whether you like the result or not, you settle it with a cross on a piece of paper and not with a gun.

00:15:08.680 And so I actually felt that it was likely to provoke nationalistic stroke terrorist groups not to diminish them. 0.53

00:15:18.160 So I took that big picture view a long time ago.

00:15:21.800 And what happened was, I mean, you see, we did have a referendum on this back in the 70s.

00:15:26.880 And my parents were told, look, vote to stay part of this because it's about trading with our neighbours.

00:15:33.520 It's going to be good for business.

00:15:35.040 It means we can travel to Europe freely.

00:15:37.960 Ironically, pre-1914, we could travel all over Europe without even having a passport.

00:15:43.060 That's been rather forgotten.

00:15:44.620 And no one thought, or very few people thought back in the 70s, that it would threaten sovereignty,

00:15:54.380 that it would threaten nation-state democracy.

00:15:57.080 And as the years went by, a project that started around peace became a project about power.

00:16:05.860 Tony Blair himself said, this is now a project of power.

00:16:09.680 And the ambition of the European Union was actually to become the world's leading superpower,

00:16:16.460 miles away from what we told we were joining.

00:16:19.040 Now, look, I've worked for American companies in a previous life.

00:16:24.480 I even worked for a French company for a brief period of time.

00:16:28.460 I get it.

00:16:29.740 We're living in an interconnected world.

00:16:33.420 I understand that.

00:16:34.300 I am generally pro-free trade, provided it's fair.

00:16:39.660 And I get international business and travel.

00:16:43.940 I understand all of these things.

00:16:46.820 But the unit by which we want to live, our ability to determine many things that are very

00:16:53.120 important in our lives, democracy, which, for goodness sake, is what we fought two world wars for,

00:16:58.620 these things really, really matter.

00:17:00.600 And to begin with, you know, my warnings about this were thought to be hysterical.

00:17:07.960 But in the end, it did become a majority view.

00:17:11.620 And I think if you look around Europe now, you'll see political movements that are on the rise

00:17:16.980 who really are talking about similar things, Jordan, to what I was saying 10, 20, 30 years ago.

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00:19:03.360 All right, so let's turn our attention to the conservatives.

00:19:06.880 So there's a couple of things that you pointed out that have been great mysteries to me.

00:19:12.220 So, for example, I'm absolutely jaw-droppingly amazed that the conservatives adopted net zero

00:19:21.860 policies under Boris Johnson.

00:19:23.580 It's like, what the hell were they thinking?

00:19:26.520 You know, the most skeptical part of my brain, and I suppose the rude part, thinks that this

00:19:33.480 was cooked up by Boris Johnson to impress his young wife on the personal side.

00:19:38.100 And that the conservatives as well, as a group, lacked a vision so comprehensively that they 1.00

00:19:44.440 had to turn to this idiot climate apocalypse mongering that's used by power-mad tyrants to 1.00

00:19:51.140 cow the public into delivering them all the authority and power. 1.00

00:19:55.620 And so I just can't wrap my head around the conservative shift to net zero.

00:20:00.340 Not only because it's such a profoundly anti-conservative movement, at least with regards to such things

00:20:07.280 as entrepreneurial activity and freedom, and it's profoundly anti-subsidiary.

00:20:13.600 So it works against the spirit of distributed responsibility.

00:20:17.880 And the economics of a shift to net zero are so appallingly catastrophic that it's a miracle

00:20:23.040 that anybody who could count would even ever consider it.

00:20:25.520 So, like, what the hell was going on with the—and certainly this is part of the reason

00:20:29.780 they're being devastated at the moment—what in the world was going on with the conservatives?

00:20:34.180 Where were their heads at?

00:20:35.940 Well, you're right.

00:20:36.580 I think that Boris Johnson's new, much younger wife, Carrie, or Carrie Antoinette, as she's known,

00:20:43.520 I think she perhaps did play something of a part in this.

00:20:47.360 But it was broader than that.

00:20:48.680 It was broader than that.

00:20:49.780 You know, David Cameron, in 2010, became a conservative prime minister, and he and his

00:20:55.240 sidekick, George Osborne, the chancellor, they saw themselves as the heir to Blair.

00:21:00.740 They were essentially globalists.

00:21:03.140 They were essentially career politicians.

00:21:06.280 And they don't like to be criticised.

00:21:09.340 They don't like the Twitterati.

00:21:11.160 They don't like the G7, or whatever it may be.

00:21:14.640 They don't want to stand out from the crowd.

00:21:16.860 They haven't got the courage of their convictions, because do you know what?

00:21:20.000 They haven't actually got any real convictions.

00:21:22.860 And so we've been priding ourselves that we've cut carbon emissions more than any other

00:21:29.220 Western country.

00:21:30.240 We have cut carbon emissions by 44% since 1990.

00:21:35.660 And do you know how we've done it?

00:21:37.740 We've de-industrialised.

00:21:39.360 We've de-industrialised.

00:21:40.820 Our steel plants close down.

00:21:42.860 They go to India, where the steel is produced under lower environmental protections.

00:21:49.200 And then guess what?

00:21:50.460 The steel goods are shipped back to the United Kingdom.

00:21:52.880 We haven't actually reduced global CO2 emissions.

00:21:57.560 We've just exported it to other countries.

00:22:00.880 And at the same time as doing that, I mean, Boris said he wanted us to become the Saudi Arabia

00:22:06.980 of wind, so wind turbines to be built all across our seascapes and some of our landscapes.

00:22:14.660 But of course, none of it working unless it had subsidy.

00:22:18.440 And guess where the subsidy's gone?

00:22:20.120 It's gone under the electricity bills of ordinary folk, for whom energy is disproportionately

00:22:26.720 a much higher percentage of their income.

00:22:30.260 So we've actually de-industrialised.

00:22:33.040 We have transferred vast amounts of wealth from the poorest to the richest.

00:22:38.920 And even in terms of a CO2 debate and emissions, frankly, globally, we've achieved almost nothing.

00:22:46.540 And I think it's a combination of woolly thinking, but above all cowardice.

00:22:53.240 And this is really my complaint about the so-called Conservative Party. 0.99

00:22:57.780 They are cowardly. 0.77

00:22:59.960 They want to be popular amongst the right circles in the smart dinner party set in London. 0.95

00:23:06.540 They can't stand the pile-on that happens on social media.

00:23:11.240 And they're in politics.

00:23:13.500 And you'd think they're still, you know, in a university debating society.

00:23:18.180 It's all a great big game.

00:23:20.160 It's all about climbing the greasy pole.

00:23:22.420 It's not about conviction.

00:23:24.620 Let me ask you about carbon dioxide.

00:23:27.780 I want to ask you a hard question.

00:23:30.740 Many of the Conservatives that I talk to now, small-c Conservatives, are beginning to push

00:23:37.020 back against the climate apocalypse mongers, but they're still doing it pretty apologetically.

00:23:41.340 And so, you know, I've been looking at the data on carbon dioxide production for about 15 years,

00:23:48.420 trying to sort it out.

00:23:49.320 And my view as a scientist who's capable of assessing data is that if we were taking a

00:23:58.260 dispassionate look at the situation, one that wasn't informed by the Club of Rome overpopulation

00:24:04.960 doomsayers, for example, that we would conclude that by historical standards over periods of

00:24:11.360 millions of years instead of thousands, we're actually, the planet is actually in a pretty

00:24:16.960 severe carbon dioxide drought.

00:24:19.440 And that the influx of carbon dioxide from the fossil fuel industry into the atmosphere is

00:24:26.060 actually a net ecological good.

00:24:27.980 And the reason I think this is because there's one piece of data that leaps out at me that

00:24:33.800 is so large that it seems to put everything else in the shadow.

00:24:37.340 And that is that in the last 20 years alone, the planet has greened by an area factor of

00:24:46.280 20 percent, which is twice as big as the continental United States.

00:24:50.920 Now, that's not all.

00:24:52.280 Not only has it got greener and a lot greener, the places that got greener were primarily semi-arid

00:24:59.560 areas.

00:25:00.540 In fact, exactly the areas that the climate doomsayers said would turn into outright desert

00:25:05.820 as the planet warmed.

00:25:07.720 Not only were they wrong, they were wrong in the opposite direction.

00:25:11.840 And then we could add to that the fact, and this is like straight up NASA data, I'm not

00:25:17.320 making any of this up, that crops themselves, the crops we depend on to like eat, have increased

00:25:24.320 their productivity by something approximating 15 percent, along with this additional greening.

00:25:29.380 And so I can understand environmental concern that any rapid transformation of the ecosystem,

00:25:38.000 including the rapid production of carbon dioxide, is something to be alert to because rapid change,

00:25:44.200 it's difficult for biological systems to adapt to rapid change, let's say.

00:25:49.000 But it seems to me that it's time for people who are not fond of the climate fear mongers

00:25:55.660 to not be apologetic about their opposition.

00:25:59.260 Quite the contrary.

00:26:00.160 Now, I know this is a rather, I might be regarded as rather extreme stance, but I'm curious about

00:26:06.780 what you do think about the climate crisis per se.

00:26:12.480 And, you know, I already made the case that Britain's attempts to address it have done

00:26:16.940 nothing but enrich India and China and likely increase the amount of carbon dioxide in the 0.96

00:26:22.240 atmosphere anyways because of the laxer environmental standards in those countries.

00:26:26.180 I think that's true, but I'm not sure that that gets at the issue as deeply as perhaps it

00:26:32.040 might be addressed.

00:26:32.820 So anyways, I'll put you on the spot with regards to that.

00:26:37.940 Well, I don't understand the science of it, and I haven't studied that aspect of it as much

00:26:42.460 as you have.

00:26:43.040 I've looked more at what we're doing in the name of dealing with the problem and my criticisms

00:26:49.740 of that.

00:26:50.140 But I would say this.

00:26:51.040 I do find it extraordinary that people call carbon dioxide a pollutant, because as I understand

00:27:00.620 it, you know, plants don't grow without carbon dioxide, and you're talking about the earth

00:27:05.860 being much greener than it was.

00:27:08.160 So I don't understand that.

00:27:09.480 I also, I've often asked the question, you know, what about sunspot activity?

00:27:14.740 Surely historically, when it comes to the planet heating up and cooling down, sunspot activity

00:27:19.820 is a factor.

00:27:21.760 And yet that doesn't get talked about.

00:27:23.760 And then, of course, we've got volcanoes, particularly underwater volcanoes in the Pacific

00:27:29.000 Ocean.

00:27:29.500 And from what I can understand of it, only 3% of carbon dioxide that's in our atmosphere

00:27:37.260 is produced by man.

00:27:40.040 So without delving deeply into the science, I do have some pretty big questions that I'm

00:27:46.120 not afraid to ask.

00:27:47.520 So, okay, so let's turn to the Labour Party, if you don't mind.

00:27:52.540 So I'm watching with apprehension as the UK populace wanders over the brink, going to

00:27:59.560 elect a Labour government, in all likelihood.

00:28:03.020 This concerns me a lot, because if the Conservatives have been overrun by globalist liberals with a

00:28:12.780 progressive agenda, I can't imagine who's lurking in the background on the Labour side.

00:28:18.920 Well, I can't imagine because I worked in universities, so I actually know exactly who's lurking in the

00:28:23.260 background.

00:28:23.760 And so I'm very apprehensive about what a Labour government will do to the UK.

00:28:29.200 And so what do you think a Labour government will do to the UK?

00:28:34.080 Yeah, I mean, Starmer has no, Keir Starmer has no leadership qualities whatsoever.

00:28:38.400 He is devoid of any sort of charisma at all.

00:28:44.780 And people do need a leader, you know, that inspires them to a certain degree.

00:28:49.560 He's kind of doing well because he's not the Conservatives and there is revulsion.

00:28:54.280 There is revulsion at them, a sense of betrayal about them.

00:28:58.640 On the face of it, his manifesto on climate change is almost identical to the Conservatives.

00:29:05.700 His manifesto on economics is almost identical to the Conservatives.

00:29:10.480 But I think we know that what we'll see is trans ideology in the ascendancy.

00:29:18.900 We'll see more legislation designed to divide us up into different groups rather than bring

00:29:26.300 us together as human beings equal before the law.

00:29:30.240 I look at his potential front bench of the top ministers.

00:29:36.160 I see very little competence whatsoever.

00:29:40.240 He's almost going to win by default, as opposed to, you know, a big enthusiastic wave of support.

00:29:48.480 And so, in some ways, I think there's every opportunity for this just to be a one-term Labour government.

00:29:57.720 There'll be no honeymoon.

00:29:59.560 There'll be no sort of after-victory glow.

00:30:03.460 He faces a big set of problems.

00:30:06.700 You know, the ones I mentioned earlier, the population explosion, the fact our public services don't work,

00:30:12.740 the fact young people can't get a house and even their rents take up over half of their income.

00:30:19.220 And he won't have the solutions to any of it.

00:30:23.560 He's campaigning on a slogan of change, but actually, it'll be more of the same, just ever so slightly worse.

00:30:30.640 So here's the opportunity.

00:30:32.680 The opportunity is to reshape the centre-right of British politics,

00:30:38.140 to be where the silent majority actually are.

00:30:42.880 Now, I know that the British Conservative Party have been around for 190 years,

00:30:49.100 but nothing necessarily lasts forever.

00:30:54.000 And what I'm doing with Reform UK is I am taking those stances on all of those issues

00:31:00.960 that I think give us the kind of radical change that we need.

00:31:06.120 And, you know, I use the word radical in an old-fashioned sense of the word.

00:31:12.640 You see, I'm a traditionalist.

00:31:14.460 I think that our culture matters.

00:31:17.900 I think that our history matters.

00:31:21.260 I think the way that we teach our kids about who we are as a people, as a nation, matters.

00:31:27.100 I think understanding the Judeo-Christian principles that underpin, frankly, all of our civilisation,

00:31:33.460 I think that matters.

00:31:36.000 And yet, I believe you can be a traditionalist whilst recognising that your institutions need

00:31:42.620 to be brought into the 21st century, and that that can be done, and one is not inconsistent

00:31:48.940 with the other.

00:31:49.880 So my goal is to reshape the centre-right of British politics into a form that actually

00:31:57.680 stands for the sort of things that you and I would believe in and becomes electable and

00:32:02.660 wins in 2029.

00:32:05.260 Sometimes in life, things have to get a bit worse before they can get better.

00:32:10.860 So let me go at you with the typical leftist radical critiques, let's say, of the UK.

00:32:22.340 You know, my country, Canada, insofar as it's a good country, has principles that are derived

00:32:28.140 from the UK, and they're very functional.

00:32:32.120 And I read a great book at one point called The Wealth and Poverty of Nations by a guy named

00:32:36.720 Landis, a historian from Harvard, who pointed out that in the Western Hemisphere, if you

00:32:45.460 were a country in the modern world that was settled by France, Portugal, or Spain, you were

00:32:53.300 poor, whereas if you were a country that was settled by Great Britain with British institutions,

00:32:58.600 you were rich.

00:32:59.520 And that struck me, and still does, is highly probable.

00:33:04.360 And so the radical leftists would say Britain has a dreadful colonial past, that the capitalist

00:33:15.420 enterprise marginalises the poor and other marginalised groups, obviously, that the time

00:33:22.000 for nationalism is far gone and you have to be something approximating an oppressive fascist

00:33:28.720 to think otherwise.

00:33:31.580 There's no brook whatsoever given for anything that smacks of Christian nationalism, which 0.88

00:33:37.780 would be akin, I suppose, to your insistence that the nationalist project has to be embedded

00:33:43.500 within or alongside the Judeo-Christian project.

00:33:46.660 And so, well, those are fundamentally the criticisms.

00:33:49.640 And so you said you're a traditionalist, you have a walloping flag sitting behind you.

00:33:54.360 You've obviously been a staunch advocate of British sovereignty forever, and despite remarkable

00:34:02.940 odds.

00:34:03.420 So what case can you make, say, particularly to young people, that serves as a barrier against

00:34:14.620 the assault and accusations of the oh-so-moral radicals, but that also offers people a compelling

00:34:22.760 invitation moving forward?

00:34:26.440 What does reform have to offer?

00:34:28.060 Well, we believe in family, community and country.

00:34:32.500 We believe they're the three building blocks that matter to all of us, whatever age we are.

00:34:38.620 And if you deny those, well, you're entitled to deny those.

00:34:42.560 But it's rather important that through the education system, people don't just hear that argument,

00:34:48.640 they hear the positive argument.

00:34:50.340 And I think what progressivism is doing, it's confusing young people.

00:34:56.300 I mean, young men, young men are being told they can't be men.

00:35:00.180 We've got England through to the quarterfinals of the European Championships, as I speak,

00:35:07.340 and they're being told, if you go to Germany, please don't drink too much beer.

00:35:12.080 Please don't chant in the stadiums.

00:35:15.160 Please don't sing songs that are funny but might cause offence.

00:35:19.080 Please don't be young lads.

00:35:21.800 I mean, that's effectively what we're telling people through this progressive agenda.

00:35:26.740 And we're telling women, now look, you know, what's the problem? 0.98

00:35:31.320 You're in a changing room, you're in a locker room, and there's somebody there with male

00:35:37.200 anatomy, but that person calls themselves a woman. 1.00

00:35:39.800 So what's your problem? 0.99

00:35:41.860 And then when we send a double rapist, violent double rapist, to a woman's prison, we're 0.99

00:35:46.860 telling women, don't complain, how dare you? 1.00

00:35:49.540 That's transphobic.

00:35:50.760 I mean, all this stuff does is totally confuse everyone.

00:35:56.100 And then you can move on from that to the diversity and inclusion agenda, which says that

00:36:03.440 companies, corporate companies, government organisations, don't employ people on talent.

00:36:08.780 No, no, no, no, no, no.

00:36:10.500 You've got to fill your quotas according to race, ethnicity, sexual preference.

00:36:16.560 And all we're doing here is we're dividing everybody up.

00:36:21.240 We're putting them in pigeonholes.

00:36:22.980 And far from bringing us together, actually, all we're doing is causing ever greater division.

00:36:31.800 And actually, and it goes back to your point about Landis, actually, the kind of society

00:36:40.380 that we've developed, evolved over these centuries, it may not be perfect, but you know something?

00:36:47.020 It's a damn sight better than anybody else in the history of mankind has ever come up with.

00:36:54.960 And, you know, when you see, when you see that nearly 25% of 18 to 24-year-old Islamic men and women

00:37:06.760 born in this country now think jihad is an acceptable principle,

00:37:13.520 you realise that if we're not careful, this progressivism is going to destroy our society

00:37:20.880 as we know it, lead to chaos and make us poorer.

00:37:24.440 That's the case to put to young people.

00:37:26.820 And you know what's exciting?

00:37:28.120 What's really exciting about this is all through my years of battling for sovereignty and borders,

00:37:33.920 my supporters were over 45, over 50.

00:37:36.860 Now, despite the fact this political party has only been active for a month,

00:37:44.220 I've just seen polling today suggesting that reform and what I stand for

00:37:50.780 is now the second most popular amongst the younger generation in this country.

00:37:56.260 And actually, I believe that within a short space of time,

00:38:00.160 our objectives, our goals, you know, our policies, our thoughts, our feelings, our principles

00:38:06.660 can become the number one amongst young people in this country.

00:38:11.420 And I've pretty much given up with the millennials. 0.98

00:38:14.360 They're gone.

00:38:15.120 They're gone.

00:38:15.960 I mean, they talk about work-life balance and, you know,

00:38:18.560 no one wants to get out of bed in the morning and they think the state owes them a living.

00:38:22.700 I'm seeing amongst Gen Z something very, very different. 1.00

00:38:25.860 Despite what their school teachers and university lecturers are telling them,

00:38:30.160 I'm seeing great hope among Gen Z for the kind of principles that we believe in.

00:38:35.080 I'm seeing it in France at the moment, whether, you know,

00:38:38.520 we're heading up for the second round of these French elections.

00:38:41.740 And even though Marine Le Pen's economic policies might be deeply socialist,

00:38:47.040 you know, culturally, she believes in La France.

00:38:49.620 And I fully understand why.

00:38:52.760 I see Trump doing amazingly well with young people in America.

00:38:58.220 And suddenly, even though I'm 60, some young people, for some reason, think I'm cool.

00:39:03.900 So actually, I am seeing great hope.

00:39:07.560 Thank goodness.

00:39:09.520 So I want to approach this from a psychological perspective for a moment

00:39:13.680 with regards to your emphasis on family, community and country.

00:39:17.840 We're neck deep in identity politics.

00:39:21.180 I suppose that's the core of the so-called culture war.

00:39:24.960 And the progressives in particular suffer from a pathology of atomized liberalism.

00:39:30.680 Because it's based on a misapprehension of psychological understanding.

00:39:36.500 They believe that identity is something that can only be defined by the individual.

00:39:43.020 But it's even more atomized than that.

00:39:46.320 It's not only is identity only proclaimed subjectively, no matter what it was.

00:39:54.240 But that very subjectivity is actually disintegrated into racial identity, ethnic identity, or sexual, let's say, sexual identity.

00:40:05.180 And so what that means is that it's a very small fragment of the subjective that's defining identity.

00:40:12.220 And so then you might say, okay, well, what truly defines identity?

00:40:17.140 And your emphasis on family, community, and country is a much more psychologically and socially astute vision.

00:40:28.560 Human beings are very, very, very social.

00:40:32.200 We're communal organisms.

00:40:33.820 We live in pair-bonded sexual arrangements in the main.

00:40:42.200 If we're mature, we live in families that have multi-generational commitments.

00:40:47.920 We live in communities that can scale upward to the level of a nation.

00:40:54.580 We're instantiated at every level.

00:40:58.180 Married couple, family, local community, town, state, nation.

00:41:04.160 All of those are part of identity.

00:41:06.380 And then the core of identity is the sacrifice of individual whim to that broader community and the future.

00:41:17.020 So it's a sacrificial gesture on the part of the individual to establish a mature identity that includes other people in the future.

00:41:25.520 That's why there's so much emphasis on sacrifice in the Judeo-Christian tradition.

00:41:30.380 The community is based on sacrifice.

00:41:32.880 That's absolutely 100% accurate.

00:41:36.320 And so I've been talking to young people all around the world. 0.98

00:41:41.420 And one of the things that makes the crowds go silent that the conservatives have at their fingertips that you've already touched upon is that the meaning that all these young people are missing in their life is going to be found in their willingness to sacrifice their idiot individual whims for something that's beyond them. 0.58

00:42:02.720 For an identity that stretches beyond them, to their marital partner, to their family, to their community, to their city, to their state, to their country under God. 0.53

00:42:13.260 That whole upward, that whole upward, striving, communal, and future-oriented identity.

00:42:19.440 That's where all the meaning is.

00:42:21.400 Because that's the most fundamental expression of the instinct that unites us.

00:42:26.900 And it's also where the adventure is because it is the case that the more responsibility you take onto yourself in that sacrificial manner, the more adventurous and meaningful and deep your life becomes.

00:42:39.900 And conservatives can explain this to young people.

00:42:42.360 It's like your missing value is to be found in the voluntary adoption of responsibility.

00:42:48.680 And, you know, they understand this because every time I say those sorts of things to the audiences that I'm speaking to, they go dead silent.

00:42:56.020 No one's pointed this out for 60 years.

00:42:58.500 And so, your emphasis, and I think the emphasis on the rising right around the world, on the necessity for family, community, and country as higher-level integrating structures with regards to identity, that that gives you security.

00:43:14.680 So, that quells anxiety, and it gives you hope because it gives you something to do.

00:43:19.760 And you need something to do to have hope and to have that positive meaning in your life, to adventure through responsibility.

00:43:26.060 And conservatives have that to sell, if they're wise, to sell that to young people, to offer that to young people, to invite young people to that.

00:43:35.780 Well, I mean, you know, one of the most exciting things in life is to be part of a team, isn't it?

00:43:39.740 You work together with other individuals, and if you achieve a victory, a goal together, it always feels better somehow as part of a team than just for yourself.

00:43:49.880 There are some exceptions to that, but generally, I think that that is true.

00:43:53.760 Look, you know, I am going to go on fighting.

00:43:56.160 In fact, to be honest, I've only just started properly fighting atomized liberalism.

00:44:03.320 I want us to completely abolish the diversity and inclusion laws, completely abolish the Equalities Act that was brought in by the Labour Party in 2010, 0.87

00:44:16.420 and which the conservatives haven't had the guts to even talk about because they're cowards.

00:44:22.120 And I want us to basically say, we don't care. 0.98

00:44:29.960 We don't care what you are.

00:44:31.420 I was asked the other day, what was I going to do for the black community?

00:44:35.220 Do you know what I said?

00:44:36.520 Nothing.

00:44:38.500 Absolutely nothing. 0.99

00:44:40.160 I couldn't give a damn whether you're black or white, whether you're gay or straight. 1.00

00:44:45.220 I really don't care. 0.91

00:44:48.320 You'll be judged by your character.

00:44:51.120 You'll be judged by your ability.

00:44:53.640 You'll be judged by are you a contributor to society or a taker out.

00:44:59.320 And right at the moment, this is considered to be dangerous, radical thinking.

00:45:06.860 But the thing, if we can start to explain why this matters, if we can start to explain that that's the only way we're going to have any chance of a unified society that works together, you know, with mutual benefit for each other.

00:45:21.020 I think this is one of the next great political battles.

00:45:24.400 And we're going to need some quite brave leaders to take it on.

00:45:27.220 But I, yeah, you know, I mean, I have to say, you know, the lunacy we saw with Black Lives Matter in 2020, you know, maybe people have begun to reflect ever so slightly on that. 1.00

00:45:40.580 We've got to treat human beings as being equal before the law.

00:45:45.100 Judge them on their values.

00:45:46.960 Judge them on their character.

00:45:48.680 Judge them on their merits.

00:45:49.720 Yeah, well, a ringing endorsements of the civil rights movement from like 1963, you know, you'd think we would have figured that out.

00:45:59.860 So maybe to close, sir, if you don't mind, why don't you just tell people, well, what do you expect from the election?

00:46:06.940 Where are you sitting now?

00:46:08.700 Where is your party sitting?

00:46:09.820 And also, why are you not concerned or how are you concerned about the fact that, you know, you're splitting the vote in the center and on the right, let's say. 0.99

00:46:21.500 And, of course, by doing so, in some ways, playing into the hands of the idiot progressives that are going to end up running your country. 0.99

00:46:28.320 So let's deal with both of those. 1.00

00:46:30.660 What's the risk in what you're doing with regards to the union of the conservatives?

00:46:34.400 And then also, what do you think, what do you think is going to happen to your party in particular in this upcoming election?

00:46:42.900 Well, point number one is the conservatives don't need my help to destroy their election chances.

00:46:47.980 They've done it to themselves.

00:46:49.680 They were going to lose anyway.

00:46:52.100 And it's very interesting.

00:46:53.460 A large number of people who say they'll vote for me, if I wasn't here, wouldn't bother to vote at all.

00:46:59.200 That's how disenchanted they are with the whole thing.

00:47:02.720 As I said earlier, you know, a Labour government is going to happen.

00:47:08.000 The conservatives deserve to lose.

00:47:10.700 Labour don't deserve to win, but they're going to win.

00:47:15.500 What I'm doing here is putting a first big marker down, albeit just in the space of a few weeks.

00:47:26.540 We are going to get millions of votes.

00:47:28.680 We are going to get our first people elected into that parliament.

00:47:33.380 And I might remind people, just as happened to a party called Reform in Canada some years ago.

00:47:42.460 Everyone said, oh, no, Reform will split the vote. 0.86

00:47:46.060 Preston Manning's a right-wing nut job.

00:47:48.460 You know, all the same kind of criticisms.

00:47:50.360 And in the end, Reform won.

00:47:52.640 And as you know, Stephen Harper proved to be a very good prime minister in many ways of Canada, having first been elected as a Reform MP and then effectively doing a reverse takeover of the very tired and increasingly progressive Conservative Party.

00:48:07.600 I am trying to do something very similar to what Reform did in Canada all those years, 30 years ago.

00:48:15.240 And to be honest with you, it's one of the reasons I chose the name Reform UK, seeing inspiration from what happened when common sense got back into Canadian politics.

00:48:26.040 Sadly, now long disappeared under Trudeau.

00:48:29.740 So, look, we're going to get, well, you know, I mean, I, you know, we're going to get millions of votes.

00:48:34.620 We're going to get, we're going to win those seats.

00:48:37.120 But I'm going to do this differently.

00:48:39.540 This is not going to be just about what we can do in Parliament.

00:48:44.400 We are going to build, this is my ambition, we're going to build a mass movement for common sense.

00:48:50.520 And we're going to build it, not just because we object to what the progressives have done to us, but because we believe in family, community and country.

00:49:01.240 And I think the more people, particularly young people, hear those arguments, the more successful we'll be over the coming years.

00:49:09.520 Well, sir, that's an excellent place to stop.

00:49:12.020 And we've timed it within the minute.

00:49:14.520 So that, that always brooks well for paying careful attention.

00:49:17.820 Good luck later this week.

00:49:21.100 We'll want to have a conversation at some point in the future about this Alliance for Responsible Citizenship that's trying to do on the international side, pretty much what you guys are trying to do on the national side. 0.50

00:49:32.920 And so I do think there's a real opportunity here for the right and the classic liberals to come together to produce an invitational vision of the future that can lift young people and the countries they're part of out of this idiot, apocalypse-mongering malaise that seems to be mandatory from the moral perspective as far as the anti-human radicals who hate Western civilization are concerned.

00:50:00.660 So good luck later this week.

00:50:03.180 Thank you.

00:50:03.660 We're watching with bated breath in Canada and everywhere else.

00:50:06.620 Yeah.

00:50:06.840 Very good to talk to you.

00:50:08.120 Thank you, Jordan.

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00:51:15.900 Thank you.

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - July 03, 2024

Conservative Failings and the Reform UK Party ｜ Nigel Farage

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