The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - Deconstruction： The Lindsay Shepherd Affair

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00:00:51.040 Welcome to the Jordan B. Peterson podcast.

00:00:59.420 You can support these podcasts by donating to Dr. Peterson's Patreon, the link to which can be found in the description.

00:01:06.820 Dr. Peterson's self-development programs, self-authoring, can be found at selfauthoring.com.

00:01:11.980 I'm here with a couple of professors from Wilfrid Laurier to talk about the Lindsay Shepard scandal,

00:01:32.360 and what happened with Professor Rambucana and Pimlot, and Administrator Adria Joel.

00:01:38.140 Adria, right? Adria Joel, who I think is the unsung, what would you call it, the unsung villain in this entire process,

00:01:45.680 because she seems to have escaped relatively unscathed, even though I think her role is more reprehensible than anyone else's.

00:01:52.080 Anyways, why don't you guys introduce yourself and talk about what you've been doing at Wilfrid Laurier,

00:01:56.940 and also just let everybody know why we're meeting.

00:02:00.120 Yeah, well, I'm Dave Haskell, and I'm a Profit Laurier. I'm in the Faculty of Liberal Arts.

00:02:07.640 This is my colleague, Wil.

00:02:09.260 Wil, how did we come into this whole thing?

00:02:11.400 Like, this didn't just happen with the Lindsay affair.

00:02:14.660 Like, well, to background, we support maximum freedom of expression,

00:02:18.460 and we've really found each other, along with a few other professors who feel the same way that we do,

00:02:25.260 that free expression and free inquiry is the core value of a university.

00:02:30.080 But sort of how did we run into each other?

00:02:33.620 I'm in the business school, so my exposure to Faculty of Arts is minimal,

00:02:37.460 and I've been really sheltered from this professionally.

00:02:41.240 But watching what's happening in the U.S., watching what was happening to you at U of T,

00:02:45.480 I'm a grad, I did my Ph.D. here.

00:02:47.960 And it was in January that our university leadership sent out an email

00:02:55.820 explaining to the faculty how to think about the Trump travel ban

00:03:00.600 and declaring its commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusivity.

00:03:07.500 And I was really offended by that,

00:03:09.640 that they would see fit to pronounce on a political issue in another country.

00:03:15.060 Offended? Why?

00:03:15.840 I've got a Ph.D. I'm able to reach my own conclusions

00:03:20.660 about whether these things are good or bad.

00:03:23.980 I don't need my administration preaching to me about the right way to think

00:03:28.340 about an issue, a political issue particularly.

00:03:31.280 And so why do you think they did that?

00:03:33.580 And what do you think they were thinking when they did that?

00:03:36.160 Because that sort of seems self-evident, right?

00:03:38.340 It's not the administration's role to dictate a political stance to the faculty.

00:03:42.700 That's just clearly not their role.

00:03:44.440 So what do you think they were thinking?

00:03:47.600 It seemed like a manifestation of Trump derangement syndrome.

00:03:50.860 It seemed like just the same reaction that the Democrats in the U.S. were having,

00:03:55.380 that they lost to this horrible person and they couldn't understand why.

00:03:59.840 And he was so reprehensible.

00:04:01.260 And here was yet another terrible thing that he was doing.

00:04:04.900 And we must all agree how bad it was.

00:04:08.060 Well, I mean, even if, the funny thing is, even if you can make that case,

00:04:11.780 say personally and even socially, the idea that you could make that case

00:04:15.420 and then be university administration and then tell your faculty to think that way,

00:04:20.460 I mean, that's taking it in a whole different, that's taking it to a whole different level of presumptuousness.

00:04:27.500 Did that come from our administration or from the diversity and equity office?

00:04:31.120 No, from the administration, from the leadership, the university leadership over the CPAM.

00:04:35.200 I remember the, it's confusing because I remember we also got an email from the diversity and equity office

00:04:41.600 when Trump won and they said that they've created a safe space

00:04:47.360 and they were going to be open for extra hours in case anybody needed to go and find comfort.

00:04:52.720 Right, that happened a lot in the United States.

00:04:54.860 But you'd think at least the Americans have some justification for it, given that it's their country.

00:04:59.140 I mean, we need safe spaces because a conservative was elected in the United States,

00:05:02.860 not even in our country, it does seem to be a little bit on the absurd side.

00:05:07.220 Well, it's just to me, you know, they didn't send out an email when Justin Trudeau won.

00:05:11.360 And I have to imagine that there were some students who were offended,

00:05:15.300 like there's got to be conservative students at Laurier,

00:05:17.660 but it's very much a one-sided conversation when we talk about administration,

00:05:22.680 when we talk about the diversity and equity office.

00:05:24.740 They talk about diversity, but they really don't mean it

00:05:26.960 because they do not want those students who are ideologically diverse.

00:05:31.660 They talk about inclusion, but they purposely will exclude those students.

00:05:36.240 And an email like that is proof positive of that kind of exclusion.

00:05:40.540 But didn't it?

00:05:41.480 Well, that was the thing that just got me hopping mad.

00:05:44.620 And I was emailing back and forth with a colleague at Queen's,

00:05:47.680 and we were talking about the importance of free speech,

00:05:50.540 and this had outraged me.

00:05:51.940 And he sent me a link to a Star article that David had written.

00:05:56.960 This was now maybe a month later in February or March about this guest speaker.

00:06:02.520 Oh, Daniel Robitaille.

00:06:03.440 Yeah.

00:06:03.680 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:06:04.600 And that she couldn't speak.

00:06:06.100 And was she, was she Gmeshi's lawyer?

00:06:08.980 Yeah.

00:06:09.320 Yeah, yeah.

00:06:10.240 Yeah.

00:06:10.460 So merely because she served as a defense lawyer for someone, she was pilloried. 0.99

00:06:14.920 Well, this was another, like, when people look at the Lindsay Shepard affair,

00:06:19.380 this is not an isolated case at Wilfrid Laurier.

00:06:22.980 This is something that is, it is a regular occurrence.

00:06:28.400 And now it isn't always as high profile.

00:06:30.800 But whether it's students in my office saying, I can't speak,

00:06:35.080 whether it's my colleague sometimes saying to their students,

00:06:37.900 who believes that they're stifled?

00:06:39.360 And every hand goes up.

00:06:40.960 And there have been cases of that.

00:06:42.120 Colleagues have come and told me.

00:06:43.500 But we've got these other examples,

00:06:45.200 like when Daniel Robitaille came to speak at the Brantford campus of Wilfrid Laurier,

00:06:49.760 and some students agitated until she was forced not to do so.

00:06:54.600 And my president...

00:06:57.000 Right, we should provide some background.

00:06:58.340 So that was the Gmeshi case, right? 0.93

00:06:59.820 And so Gmeshi was a CBC journalist who was accused of sexual assault

00:07:03.860 and sexual misbehavior by a number of people,

00:07:06.280 who was immediately let go at CBC,

00:07:09.040 who was dragged viciously through the press, I would say,

00:07:12.300 and then was found innocent in the courts.

00:07:17.420 And he had a defense lawyer,

00:07:19.460 and the defense lawyer had been invited to speak.

00:07:21.620 Yes, she was part of the defense team.

00:07:23.380 She was going to speak,

00:07:24.100 and she wasn't going to speak about the Gmeshi trial, in fact.

00:07:27.240 She was going to talk about what it's like to be a high power,

00:07:31.500 powerful lawyer in the big city, in Toronto.

00:07:35.580 And I mean, that would have been really valuable for the criminology students.

00:07:38.520 Right.

00:07:39.100 But the students who were agitating against her,

00:07:42.960 really, with the support of several professors,

00:07:46.460 they were saying,

00:07:47.340 well, no, if she comes on, it will trigger students.

00:07:49.940 It will mentally harm students.

00:07:53.540 And so that was used as justification for the agitation.

00:07:56.620 It's very interesting, too, to me,

00:07:57.560 to see that these claims of harm and so forth

00:07:59.700 are generally put forth by people

00:08:01.860 who have no clinical expertise whatsoever.

00:08:04.280 And their idea is that the way that you,

00:08:07.420 first of all, that the way to aid people's mental health

00:08:10.020 is to protect them,

00:08:10.840 and there's no evidence for that whatsoever.

00:08:13.060 And the second is that

00:08:14.200 in your attempts to protect them,

00:08:16.780 the best thing to do is to shelter them

00:08:18.580 from exposure to ideas

00:08:20.360 that would be challenging or frightening,

00:08:21.960 which is precisely the opposite of what a clinician does

00:08:24.800 when he's trying to,

00:08:25.700 or she is trying to deal with someone

00:08:28.440 who has excess anxiety.

00:08:30.060 What you do in a case

00:08:31.940 where someone who has excess anxiety,

00:08:33.980 even as a consequence of a trauma, let's say,

00:08:36.080 is you get them to voluntarily expose themselves

00:08:39.080 to increasingly larger doses

00:08:40.780 of exactly what frightens them.

00:08:42.540 That's the curative route. 0.79

00:08:44.060 So not only is it advice that's being disseminated,

00:08:48.880 say, by people who aren't clinicians,

00:08:50.220 it's actually advice that's being disseminated

00:08:52.260 who are promoting the opposite

00:08:54.660 of what an informed clinician would do.

00:08:57.360 And that isn't my opinion.

00:08:59.880 That's as close to a consensus

00:09:01.520 as anything you could reach

00:09:02.760 among clinical practitioners, right?

00:09:05.020 One, the rules for clinical improvement

00:09:07.140 is get your story straight,

00:09:08.580 something like that,

00:09:09.360 talk about your past,

00:09:10.560 sort it out,

00:09:11.460 and expose yourself to the things

00:09:13.180 that you're afraid of

00:09:13.920 that you're inclined to avoid.

00:09:15.280 That's the pathway to resilience

00:09:18.240 and more robust mental health.

00:09:19.680 Okay, so tell us the story a bit.

00:09:21.640 You guys have an inside view

00:09:23.060 of what's happened

00:09:24.240 on the Wilfrid Laurier campus

00:09:26.380 since the Lindsay Shepard affair broke.

00:09:29.360 I should just say that, you know,

00:09:30.660 after this Robert High event,

00:09:32.380 I read David's piece

00:09:33.880 and immediately emailed him

00:09:35.580 and just said,

00:09:36.300 kindred soul.

00:09:37.820 And we met and we had lunch

00:09:40.880 and just talked about, you know,

00:09:44.360 free speech and the Chicago Statement

00:09:45.900 and how can we get it implemented

00:09:47.320 at the university,

00:09:47.780 but we just couldn't see any way forward

00:09:49.760 and really felt...

00:09:50.440 Right, so that's another thing

00:09:51.500 we want to discuss.

00:09:52.340 You guys have rewritten

00:09:53.400 the Chicago Statement, right?

00:09:55.520 So that it's more appropriate

00:09:56.520 in a Canadian context.

00:09:57.800 Right, we call it

00:09:58.320 the Laurier Statement

00:10:00.280 for Freedom of Expression.

00:10:01.180 Okay, okay.

00:10:01.940 And you've been trying to convince

00:10:03.660 or you've been trying to communicate

00:10:06.980 with the university authorities

00:10:08.340 to have that ratified, essentially,

00:10:11.020 adopted as a statement of principles.

00:10:12.780 And have you had any success with that?

00:10:14.600 Or what's the consequence?

00:10:15.740 They deferred to a task force

00:10:17.160 that's going to be held.

00:10:19.980 And we can certainly...

00:10:20.800 Okay, and is that in the aftermath

00:10:22.260 of the Shepard affair?

00:10:23.340 Is that going to be part of it?

00:10:24.340 Well, we didn't really do anything

00:10:25.040 over the summer

00:10:25.720 just because it just seemed

00:10:27.780 too big a mountain.

00:10:29.940 And there seemed to be no way

00:10:32.040 to introduce the idea

00:10:33.520 of the catalyst for it.

00:10:35.320 Now you've got your catalyst.

00:10:36.340 And Lindsay Shepard

00:10:37.540 becomes the catalyst.

00:10:38.940 Oh my goodness.

00:10:39.620 And, you know,

00:10:40.980 what object lesson

00:10:44.360 in what goes on at Laurier,

00:10:46.660 but also what an object lesson

00:10:48.760 in how you handle

00:10:49.980 these free speech opponents.

00:10:53.200 She's really given a model 0.97

00:10:55.340 that other students,

00:10:56.220 I hope, will follow.

00:10:57.440 But it was through

00:10:58.480 this Robitaille thing

00:11:00.240 that we got to know each other

00:11:01.660 and a few others.

00:11:02.960 Yeah, there's a couple more of you.

00:11:04.560 That's right.

00:11:05.460 And so about five,

00:11:06.840 I think you told me.

00:11:07.780 That's right.

00:11:08.420 So the Robitaille incident

00:11:10.240 really brought us

00:11:11.700 out of the woodwork.

00:11:12.520 We started to chat and say,

00:11:13.580 you know,

00:11:13.840 we see this problem

00:11:15.020 on our university.

00:11:15.920 We don't know what to do.

00:11:16.900 And then when

00:11:17.520 the Lindsay Shepard scandal broke,

00:11:20.660 we all immediately

00:11:21.800 were emailing us.

00:11:22.980 It's happened again,

00:11:24.360 is essentially

00:11:24.880 what we were saying.

00:11:25.860 And we said,

00:11:26.120 we've got to do something

00:11:27.120 about this.

00:11:28.540 I'd already,

00:11:30.420 I was out on a trip

00:11:32.980 and I came home

00:11:34.000 and I said to my wife,

00:11:35.060 where are the newspapers?

00:11:35.660 This was November 12th

00:11:37.420 when the story broke,

00:11:38.280 Christy Blatchford's story.

00:11:39.340 And I said,

00:11:39.880 hey, honey,

00:11:40.360 where are the newspapers?

00:11:41.000 She said,

00:11:41.260 I can't let you see them.

00:11:42.640 I said, why not?

00:11:44.200 She said,

00:11:44.500 you cannot read the papers.

00:11:45.600 And of course,

00:11:46.300 it was because

00:11:46.680 Christy Blatchford's article

00:11:48.300 was in there.

00:11:49.000 So as soon as I read it,

00:11:50.520 I was beside myself.

00:11:51.940 I thought,

00:11:52.280 it's happened again

00:11:52.900 and this time,

00:11:53.380 this is really terrible.

00:11:54.180 They've attacked a TA

00:11:55.420 is what they've done.

00:11:57.240 So I contacted...

00:11:58.100 With the full force

00:11:59.020 of the administration.

00:12:00.300 And claims that she had

00:12:01.960 done mental harm.

00:12:03.420 Yeah.

00:12:03.680 Broken two laws.

00:12:04.780 Broken two laws.

00:12:05.120 Two laws,

00:12:05.760 federal and provincial.

00:12:06.700 I was sincerely worried

00:12:08.800 that they were going to railroad

00:12:10.300 this young lady.

00:12:11.900 Oh,

00:12:12.040 they could have easily

00:12:12.680 taken her to the

00:12:13.360 Ontario Human Rights Commission.

00:12:14.540 They would have had

00:12:14.920 a field day with her.

00:12:15.320 What was going to happen?

00:12:16.480 I contacted Christy Blatchford.

00:12:18.020 I said,

00:12:18.260 can you put me in touch with her?

00:12:19.320 She was kind enough to do so.

00:12:20.540 I got in touch with Lindsay

00:12:22.080 and I said,

00:12:22.960 I know that this is

00:12:25.140 a terrible time,

00:12:25.840 but you've got a professor

00:12:26.880 who supports you.

00:12:27.680 I knew that these gentlemen

00:12:28.920 also would.

00:12:30.680 And then quickly,

00:12:31.860 as quickly as I could,

00:12:33.080 I wrote an op-ed

00:12:34.380 for the Toronto Star that week

00:12:35.760 just again saying,

00:12:37.460 this is happening.

00:12:38.740 The world needs to be aware of it.

00:12:40.500 But it was really after that,

00:12:42.080 that Monday,

00:12:43.140 after the story broke

00:12:43.940 on the Saturday,

00:12:44.480 we started to talk.

00:12:45.920 And how can we assist Lindsay?

00:12:49.500 And how can we...

00:12:50.380 Well, the op-ed helped.

00:12:51.600 It did.

00:12:52.320 And the fact that the Star ran it

00:12:53.820 was quite remarkable as well.

00:12:55.320 So hooray to the Star.

00:12:56.720 The Star really does

00:12:58.600 want to do its best

00:12:59.900 to champion free expression.

00:13:01.560 Yeah, well, you'd think

00:13:02.200 journalists would actually

00:13:03.020 be concerned about that

00:13:03.920 to some degree.

00:13:04.500 You would hope so.

00:13:04.760 Well, and I think they are.

00:13:05.760 Like, one of the things

00:13:06.460 that's happened to me

00:13:07.160 in the last year

00:13:07.820 is that although the press coverage

00:13:09.300 of what I did,

00:13:10.720 and just to remind people,

00:13:11.840 so last year I made a video

00:13:13.000 about Bill C-16,

00:13:14.340 which was the bill

00:13:15.220 whose provisions

00:13:16.160 Lindsay Shepard

00:13:17.060 theoretically transgressed against,

00:13:19.300 just to be clear about that.

00:13:21.080 And when I first made the video,

00:13:23.240 I was accused

00:13:23.960 by all sorts of people,

00:13:25.160 including journalists,

00:13:26.080 of, well, first of all,

00:13:28.200 making unnecessary noise

00:13:29.440 and being unnecessarily alarmist,

00:13:31.220 which were the minor accusations.

00:13:32.680 And then the more major accusations

00:13:34.020 were that, you know,

00:13:35.260 I was all the things

00:13:36.020 that you'd expect

00:13:36.780 a far-right agitator

00:13:39.420 to be, 0.98

00:13:39.860 a bigot and a transphobe 1.00

00:13:40.940 and a racist 0.99

00:13:41.440 and all of these things.

00:13:42.340 So, but what was interesting

00:13:45.000 was that the journalists,

00:13:47.420 by and large,

00:13:48.200 especially the main journalists,

00:13:49.800 turned around on that issue

00:13:50.840 really quickly.

00:13:51.660 It was probably within three weeks

00:13:53.100 because what happened

00:13:54.220 was a couple of them

00:13:55.020 actually went and read

00:13:55.920 the policy documents

00:13:56.980 that I had referred to

00:13:58.080 on the Ontario Human Rights Commission website,

00:14:00.000 which are still there

00:14:00.680 and which are still appalling

00:14:01.740 and have led exactly

00:14:03.360 to this situation with Lindsay.

00:14:04.960 And as soon as they read

00:14:06.480 what I had been,

00:14:09.480 what outing,

00:14:11.980 let's say,

00:14:12.720 in my video,

00:14:13.540 then they started to understand

00:14:15.540 that this,

00:14:16.340 that I wasn't just ringing a bell

00:14:17.980 for no reason at all.

00:14:19.460 It was actually reasonable,

00:14:20.580 I think,

00:14:20.840 of people to go after me

00:14:22.080 to begin with

00:14:22.660 because Canada is such a safe

00:14:24.560 and peaceful place

00:14:25.620 and our political situation

00:14:26.840 and economic situation

00:14:28.100 has been so stable

00:14:29.140 that when someone comes out

00:14:30.540 and says,

00:14:31.380 look, we're in danger

00:14:32.200 of making a major error,

00:14:33.740 the logical first response

00:14:35.660 should be,

00:14:36.760 no,

00:14:37.440 there's something wrong with you.

00:14:38.660 It's like,

00:14:39.060 we're fine,

00:14:39.700 there's something wrong with you.

00:14:40.700 The law is just trying

00:14:41.300 to protect these people.

00:14:42.320 Right, exactly.

00:14:43.100 Well, and so it's reasonable,

00:14:44.900 I think it was reasonable

00:14:45.760 for me to be hit hard

00:14:47.200 in the aftermath

00:14:47.840 of doing that

00:14:48.680 because,

00:14:50.240 well,

00:14:50.840 generally speaking,

00:14:52.020 whistleblowers in Canada

00:14:53.000 or alarmists in Canada

00:14:54.160 have very little

00:14:54.880 to be alarmist about.

00:14:56.500 Right.

00:14:56.640 But this,

00:14:57.620 okay,

00:14:57.960 so now,

00:14:58.380 so, fine,

00:14:58.960 so this thing happened

00:14:59.680 with Lindsay.

00:15:00.260 What have you seen happening

00:15:01.440 on the Wilfrid Laurier campus?

00:15:03.360 Well,

00:15:03.600 things that I'm not

00:15:04.960 particularly proud of,

00:15:06.360 I would say,

00:15:07.320 I mean,

00:15:07.680 I knew that Will

00:15:09.120 and some other colleagues

00:15:10.720 were going to come

00:15:11.640 to the aid of Lindsay,

00:15:12.780 but I was thinking

00:15:13.880 that once her recording

00:15:15.620 became public,

00:15:16.840 that we would just have

00:15:18.120 a flood of professors

00:15:19.860 coming to support our cause,

00:15:22.160 which is,

00:15:22.820 we had a Laurier statement

00:15:24.600 for freedom of expression

00:15:25.660 modeled on the Chicago statement.

00:15:27.300 We thought that immediately

00:15:28.500 people would just say,

00:15:29.420 of course,

00:15:29.960 we need to reinforce

00:15:31.800 that this needs

00:15:33.220 to be the primary mission.

00:15:34.520 Free expression,

00:15:35.180 free inquiry

00:15:35.680 needs to be the primary mission.

00:15:37.440 And we got that out

00:15:38.240 pretty fast.

00:15:39.120 We really did.

00:15:39.880 In about 10 days

00:15:40.880 and got it on change.org

00:15:44.420 and then I was emailing

00:15:45.940 everybody that I knew

00:15:47.200 and trying to get people interested

00:15:49.240 and I would say

00:15:50.280 out of 50 emails I sent,

00:15:52.080 I got 15 signatures

00:15:53.180 from personal relationships.

00:15:55.880 So even with personal relationships,

00:15:58.440 you could only get

00:15:59.160 a 30% hit rate.

00:16:00.480 So what do you think's

00:16:01.480 stopping professors

00:16:03.300 from signing that,

00:16:05.140 say,

00:16:05.260 or clambering on board,

00:16:06.280 especially in the aftermath

00:16:07.560 of the Shepard recording,

00:16:09.480 which we should point out,

00:16:10.680 you know,

00:16:10.900 and this is one of the things

00:16:11.720 that's very interesting,

00:16:12.620 is that outside Wilfrid Laurier

00:16:16.740 and perhaps outside universities

00:16:19.240 that are in the same boat,

00:16:20.280 the reaction to that recording

00:16:25.080 was universal, right?

00:16:27.620 And national and international

00:16:29.700 and uniform.

00:16:30.500 And the reaction was, 0.98

00:16:31.760 what the hell? 0.98

00:16:32.780 This is scandalous. 0.95

00:16:34.100 There's nothing about this

00:16:35.400 that is acceptable, right?

00:16:36.760 And so what struck me

00:16:38.600 as so remarkable

00:16:39.400 is that even though

00:16:40.660 there's been international outrage

00:16:42.600 over this

00:16:43.100 and very,

00:16:44.640 and not,

00:16:46.180 and an outrage of a sort

00:16:48.300 that's only been disputed

00:16:49.540 by a very small number of people,

00:16:52.140 at least to begin with,

00:16:53.320 Wilfrid Laurier responded en masse,

00:16:55.840 let's say,

00:16:56.160 as if this was somehow debatable,

00:16:58.380 you know,

00:16:58.560 as if there were two sides

00:16:59.740 of the story here,

00:17:00.760 let's say.

00:17:01.520 And I thought,

00:17:02.560 well,

00:17:03.460 I thought Rambucana and Pimlot,

00:17:05.080 who were the professors,

00:17:06.480 what they did,

00:17:07.680 I thought was appalling

00:17:08.620 for in-upgrading her

00:17:11.140 and in the manner

00:17:12.040 in which they did it

00:17:12.920 and in the language

00:17:14.060 that they used.

00:17:15.100 But I thought

00:17:15.620 what was truly terrifying

00:17:17.120 was the presence

00:17:17.900 of Adria Joel

00:17:18.760 at that inquisition

00:17:19.820 because she was

00:17:20.940 an administrator

00:17:21.900 who was hired

00:17:22.720 specifically to do

00:17:24.240 exactly what she was doing

00:17:25.580 by legislated necessity

00:17:28.100 on the part

00:17:28.800 of the Ontario Liberal Government,

00:17:30.320 right?

00:17:30.540 Because it wasn't just

00:17:31.280 the university

00:17:31.840 that was involved in this.

00:17:32.860 Her position was set up

00:17:33.880 because of legislative necessity,

00:17:35.680 which is something

00:17:36.280 also to keep in mind

00:17:37.280 when we're going

00:17:37.800 after the universities.

00:17:39.040 Okay,

00:17:39.320 so you had a hard time

00:17:40.340 getting faculty on board.

00:17:42.240 How many faculty members

00:17:43.460 did sign it?

00:17:44.540 59 is it?

00:17:45.740 Out of how many faculty?

00:17:48.140 550 full-time.

00:17:50.020 And so you say,

00:17:51.040 well, what's going on with them?

00:17:52.620 Well, I think that some

00:17:53.540 maybe,

00:17:55.020 I know this is hard to believe,

00:17:56.540 but maybe unaware

00:17:57.200 even now.

00:17:58.920 I think there's a big proportion

00:18:00.040 that are unaware.

00:18:01.200 As unbelievable as that is.

00:18:03.280 I think that some people...

00:18:03.900 Okay, well,

00:18:04.340 that's its own mystery

00:18:05.360 because I don't know

00:18:06.440 where you'd have to have been

00:18:07.540 in the last month

00:18:08.580 to not have noticed

00:18:09.700 that this has happened.

00:18:10.520 People perhaps

00:18:11.580 in the sciences,

00:18:12.560 the computer sciences,

00:18:13.560 the math,

00:18:14.140 they've got their head down

00:18:15.440 and they're doing their research.

00:18:17.540 And so I don't think

00:18:18.760 there's anything diabolical there.

00:18:20.220 I think that what we...

00:18:21.160 But business as well.

00:18:21.860 I've got very few signatures

00:18:23.100 from the business faculty.

00:18:25.220 I mean, some,

00:18:26.340 but a lot of people

00:18:28.080 just aren't engaged.

00:18:29.480 It's a bit of a commuter school

00:18:31.200 a little bit.

00:18:31.940 So I think people

00:18:32.740 are just getting on

00:18:33.580 with their research

00:18:34.260 and their teaching,

00:18:35.300 maybe not aware of the problem.

00:18:36.740 Well, that's an interesting thing

00:18:38.380 in and of itself

00:18:39.160 because I think part

00:18:40.300 of what's led

00:18:41.220 to the occupation

00:18:42.880 of the university,

00:18:44.560 let's say,

00:18:44.980 by the radical postmodern types

00:18:46.820 is the proclivity

00:18:48.280 of the scientists

00:18:50.000 in particular,

00:18:51.080 but also I would say

00:18:52.100 the more serious scholars

00:18:53.140 to be focusing narrowly

00:18:54.540 on their field of inquiry,

00:18:55.800 which is essentially

00:18:56.440 what they should be doing

00:18:57.440 and not paying attention

00:18:58.880 to any of the

00:18:59.840 broader contextual issues,

00:19:02.120 which is actually

00:19:02.880 a perfectly fine strategy

00:19:04.200 when things are going well,

00:19:05.400 but a terrible strategy

00:19:06.400 when they're not.

00:19:07.760 And what you also see,

00:19:08.800 so we've got these people

00:19:09.880 who might not be aware

00:19:11.120 and we've got the few

00:19:13.280 who are aware

00:19:13.960 and are supporting

00:19:14.760 maximum free expression,

00:19:16.640 but then you've got

00:19:17.520 these other people

00:19:18.240 who are convinced

00:19:18.940 that maximum free expression,

00:19:20.580 free inquiry,

00:19:21.400 is not a good thing

00:19:22.160 for a university.

00:19:23.580 And those people

00:19:24.840 are definitely congregated

00:19:26.160 within the arts

00:19:26.760 and the humanities

00:19:27.440 and they justify it

00:19:29.140 because they are applying

00:19:30.340 a social justice lens

00:19:31.660 or what they would call

00:19:32.640 a critical theory lens

00:19:33.820 to this entire issue.

00:19:38.220 And how about

00:19:39.040 a quick summary

00:19:39.820 of critical theory?

00:19:41.040 Well, critical theory,

00:19:41.980 I mean, in a nutshell,

00:19:43.520 it's an idea that came

00:19:44.640 from the Frankfurt School

00:19:45.780 in Germany.

00:19:46.340 It transfers over

00:19:47.180 to Columbia University.

00:19:48.960 It is some German scholars

00:19:51.080 who are Marxists

00:19:52.620 and what they are saying

00:19:53.800 is that Marxism

00:19:56.700 as an economic unit

00:19:57.820 or as an economic philosophy

00:19:59.080 really doesn't work.

00:20:00.600 It doesn't transfer very well,

00:20:02.000 but let's change it over

00:20:03.160 to a social theory

00:20:04.860 and it's a theory

00:20:06.400 of oppressor and oppressed

00:20:07.880 and it's very bifurcated.

00:20:09.760 You are either one or the other

00:20:11.460 and if you are the oppressed,

00:20:13.800 you're good

00:20:14.220 and if you're the oppressor, 0.96

00:20:16.040 you're bad

00:20:16.440 and it's as simple as that. 0.99

00:20:17.600 There's no nuance

00:20:18.500 or, okay,

00:20:19.260 I'm being as bad as they are

00:20:21.160 so I'm giving you

00:20:22.880 the really broad strokes on this.

00:20:24.940 But essentially,

00:20:26.020 it does set up

00:20:26.960 the villain

00:20:27.760 and the victim

00:20:29.340 and it is the idea

00:20:31.780 that we must do everything

00:20:33.460 to silence the villain,

00:20:35.880 the oppressor

00:20:36.580 and to center the oppressed.

00:20:39.260 Yes,

00:20:39.600 and then we will elevate

00:20:40.920 the oppressed.

00:20:43.040 The same thing happened

00:20:43.980 essentially

00:20:44.380 with the French

00:20:45.100 deconstructionists

00:20:46.980 in the 1970s.

00:20:47.880 It is.

00:20:48.260 So this is the motivation

00:20:49.520 behind it.

00:20:50.180 But when you hear

00:20:51.760 them talk about

00:20:53.180 critical theory,

00:20:54.880 it is not

00:20:55.600 critical thinking.

00:20:56.820 There's a big difference

00:20:57.580 and so parents will hear,

00:20:59.300 well,

00:20:59.440 they're teaching critical theory.

00:21:00.480 Isn't that a good thing?

00:21:01.300 No,

00:21:01.640 because critical thinking

00:21:03.360 means I'm going to show you

00:21:04.680 both sides of this argument.

00:21:06.320 Critical theory means

00:21:07.600 I'm going to deliberately

00:21:08.740 give you one side

00:21:09.740 of the argument.

00:21:10.500 I'm going to tell you

00:21:11.320 who's right

00:21:11.900 and I'm going to tell you

00:21:12.800 who's wrong.

00:21:13.520 There's an oppressor

00:21:14.320 and an oppressed.

00:21:15.140 The oppressor is the bad guy.

00:21:16.280 The oppressed is the good guy

00:21:17.720 and it's a very manipulative

00:21:20.320 way of thinking.

00:21:21.600 Okay, so there's, let's say,

00:21:25.040 two reasons why people

00:21:26.220 wouldn't sign the petition.

00:21:29.780 One is they're doing

00:21:31.100 something else

00:21:31.700 and they're just not

00:21:32.580 interested in it

00:21:33.260 and fair enough,

00:21:34.460 even though I think

00:21:35.060 that's dangerous at the moment.

00:21:36.860 The second is that

00:21:37.980 they're actually philosophically

00:21:40.020 or ideologically opposed

00:21:41.540 to the propositions.

00:21:43.060 And so to what degree

00:21:44.760 do you think the latter

00:21:46.020 is the determining factor

00:21:47.940 behind the relatively small

00:21:49.960 degree of support

00:21:50.780 that you guys have been

00:21:52.520 able to drum up?

00:21:53.520 It's a big thing

00:21:54.080 that a group of faculty

00:21:56.000 signed an open letter

00:21:57.180 to the university

00:21:58.900 complaining about the violence

00:22:00.740 and that the administration

00:22:03.240 need to make the campus safe.

00:22:04.740 Safe, yeah.

00:22:05.300 They did the same thing

00:22:06.080 with me after I made my video.

00:22:08.260 I made the campus unsafe

00:22:09.860 and 200 people signed a petition.

00:22:12.720 What does unsafe mean?

00:22:14.760 I mean, this is the problem.

00:22:16.560 The left, the far left

00:22:21.460 are taking words

00:22:22.600 that have a traditional meaning,

00:22:23.920 a traditional definition

00:22:24.900 and they're blowing

00:22:26.120 that definition completely away.

00:22:30.040 And at one time,

00:22:31.440 harm meant that

00:22:32.780 there was an infliction

00:22:34.720 of damage

00:22:36.020 that would have lasting effect

00:22:37.800 and it would compromise

00:22:39.080 the appearance

00:22:39.980 or the function, right?

00:22:41.480 We can think about damage

00:22:42.420 to a car, right?

00:22:43.540 Lasting and it's affecting

00:22:45.800 the appearance

00:22:46.760 or the function.

00:22:47.760 That's what harm is.

00:22:49.180 But they've stretched

00:22:50.080 that definition

00:22:50.800 so that it becomes meaningless

00:22:52.180 that an objectionable idea

00:22:54.960 becomes harm.

00:22:56.800 That when you show a video,

00:22:59.120 you've made a place unsafe.

00:23:01.520 And that...

00:23:02.900 Yeah, that's the language

00:23:03.660 of trigger warnings

00:23:04.520 and safe space.

00:23:05.380 But it's disingenuous.

00:23:07.100 There was a trans rally

00:23:08.600 and one of the speakers

00:23:09.720 said that letting...

00:23:11.300 I hope I can quote this properly.

00:23:12.500 Letting Peterson's views

00:23:13.860 be heard in the classroom

00:23:15.240 is violence.

00:23:16.800 It is violence.

00:23:18.320 Yeah, right, right.

00:23:19.140 Although there's certainly...

00:23:20.900 Yes, you can react with violence.

00:23:22.760 Yes, well that's often

00:23:23.560 what I think that...

00:23:24.400 I've thought a lot about

00:23:25.300 one of the tenets

00:23:26.680 of postmodernism,

00:23:28.580 less so I would say

00:23:30.320 of critical theory,

00:23:31.060 but particularly

00:23:31.760 of postmodernism

00:23:32.740 and it's more Marxist variants

00:23:34.120 is that the only motivation

00:23:36.760 for the construction

00:23:37.760 of hierarchies is power.

00:23:40.720 You think,

00:23:41.040 well that's...

00:23:42.480 No.

00:23:43.420 There's lots of reasons

00:23:44.280 for producing hierarchies, right?

00:23:45.860 There's hierarchies

00:23:46.480 of competence,

00:23:47.300 there's hierarchies

00:23:47.800 of interest,

00:23:48.480 there's hierarchies

00:23:49.540 of aesthetic quality.

00:23:50.940 Like there's all sorts of...

00:23:51.840 Wherever you can make

00:23:52.460 a qualitative judgment,

00:23:53.640 you make a hierarchy.

00:23:55.020 So there's...

00:23:55.940 The idea that power

00:23:56.900 is the only driving force

00:23:58.820 between...

00:23:59.620 Behind the construction

00:24:00.520 of hierarchies

00:24:01.180 is absolutely preposterous.

00:24:04.580 So you think,

00:24:05.200 well why in the world

00:24:05.800 would anyone make that claim

00:24:07.040 that it's only power

00:24:08.500 that exists?

00:24:09.740 Well as far as I can tell,

00:24:11.040 at least one of the reasons

00:24:12.040 is that it justifies

00:24:13.040 the use of power.

00:24:14.300 Now if you have your position

00:24:15.440 because of power,

00:24:16.660 which is basically tyranny,

00:24:18.260 then I'm fully warranted

00:24:19.900 in my use of power

00:24:20.920 against you,

00:24:21.580 that's all there is.

00:24:22.800 So I think it's

00:24:23.900 a great justification for it.

00:24:25.660 Okay, so how many people

00:24:27.120 signed the petition

00:24:27.960 stating that the campus

00:24:29.860 had become unsafe?

00:24:31.080 That was like 79.

00:24:32.120 79, just like that.

00:24:34.820 Okay, so you got more people

00:24:36.040 signing a petition

00:24:36.900 claiming that what Shepard did

00:24:38.680 made the campus unsafe

00:24:39.960 than you did getting...

00:24:41.360 Okay, so that's interesting

00:24:42.420 because one of the things

00:24:43.220 we're going to address later

00:24:44.280 is the president's letter

00:24:46.060 as a consequence of the inquiry

00:24:48.140 into the Lindsay Shepard affair.

00:24:49.740 And one of the things she says,

00:24:51.940 people who've tried to downplay

00:24:54.220 what happened at Wilfrid Laurier

00:24:56.200 have said basically

00:24:57.200 two or three things.

00:24:59.520 One is that

00:25:01.040 well, that Shepard

00:25:03.120 is not to be trusted

00:25:03.940 and she's really

00:25:04.620 like a subtle arm

00:25:06.980 of the right wing.

00:25:07.980 That's one...

00:25:09.620 And that she's

00:25:10.140 a reprehensible character.

00:25:11.520 Yes, yes, or Peterson.

00:25:12.640 No, they directly went after her.

00:25:14.080 I'm quite sneaky that way.

00:25:15.960 The second is that

00:25:17.420 Pimlot, Rambucana, and Joel

00:25:20.120 misinterpreted Bill C-16,

00:25:22.720 which I think is

00:25:23.420 absolutely preposterous.

00:25:24.620 I think they interpreted

00:25:25.640 exactly the way

00:25:26.780 that it was written,

00:25:27.900 especially if you consider

00:25:28.840 the surrounding policies.

00:25:29.880 And that's what I was warning

00:25:30.720 about last September.

00:25:32.200 And the third is

00:25:33.520 that this was

00:25:34.760 an isolated incident

00:25:35.860 and doesn't truly reflect

00:25:37.480 the reality

00:25:38.120 either of Wilfrid Laurier

00:25:39.400 or other campuses.

00:25:40.520 And that's stated explicitly

00:25:41.680 in the president's letter.

00:25:43.080 And so that's one of the things

00:25:44.160 I wanted to discuss

00:25:45.060 because I don't buy that.

00:25:46.440 I think this wasn't

00:25:47.420 an anomaly.

00:25:48.260 This wasn't people

00:25:48.940 stepping out of line.

00:25:50.060 And I think the proof

00:25:51.100 of that is

00:25:51.700 not what Rambucana did

00:25:53.320 or Pimlot.

00:25:54.100 Because we could say,

00:25:55.500 yeah, yeah,

00:25:55.880 they're ideologically

00:25:56.740 committed professors

00:25:58.080 and they're not very professional

00:26:00.960 in their administrative abilities

00:26:02.440 and they went after a TA

00:26:03.800 unprofessionally 1.00

00:26:04.720 and stupidly. 1.00

00:26:06.060 That's bad. 1.00

00:26:07.740 That's not really bad.

00:26:08.940 What's really bad

00:26:09.680 was that there was

00:26:10.320 a paid administrator

00:26:11.680 at the meeting

00:26:12.500 who was hired

00:26:13.360 to do exactly that.

00:26:15.160 And so the fact

00:26:15.860 that she was there

00:26:16.880 is the proof to me

00:26:18.740 that this is not only

00:26:20.180 not an isolated incident,

00:26:21.400 it's actually

00:26:22.300 a logical

00:26:23.780 and inevitable

00:26:26.860 consequence

00:26:27.560 of legislative moves

00:26:29.240 that made these

00:26:30.000 bureaucratic positions

00:26:31.040 necessary

00:26:31.580 and the practical reality

00:26:33.720 that these administrative

00:26:35.040 positions do exist

00:26:36.540 on the campuses.

00:26:37.800 So there's no

00:26:38.900 isolated incident

00:26:40.120 issue there.

00:26:41.060 Now, how do you think

00:26:41.840 Lindsay's been treated

00:26:42.660 at Wilfrid Laurier?

00:26:43.900 Like, what's your impression

00:26:46.220 of her personal situation

00:26:48.300 there?

00:26:48.580 I think that

00:26:50.140 so on the positive side

00:26:51.740 there have been students

00:26:53.420 who have rallied

00:26:55.140 to her support

00:26:56.280 and that's been

00:26:58.000 really encouraging to see.

00:26:59.540 It was some students

00:27:01.520 on campus

00:27:02.180 who are dedicated

00:27:03.820 to freedom of expression.

00:27:05.260 They mostly are coming

00:27:06.300 from the conservative

00:27:07.840 clubs,

00:27:09.960 whether it's the

00:27:10.760 conservative political club

00:27:11.880 or other conservative groups,

00:27:14.220 although definitely

00:27:16.020 invitations have been

00:27:16.940 extended to other

00:27:18.300 groups of other

00:27:19.460 political stripes

00:27:20.220 or other,

00:27:20.740 they really haven't rallied

00:27:22.080 to Lindsay, sadly.

00:27:24.280 So those students

00:27:25.820 have, to a certain extent,

00:27:28.560 befriended her

00:27:29.340 or brought her

00:27:30.580 under their wing

00:27:31.120 or just have begun

00:27:32.460 associating with her

00:27:33.520 and saying,

00:27:34.200 how can we support you?

00:27:35.520 I think in her classes,

00:27:37.380 and I'm just going

00:27:38.140 from what I've seen,

00:27:38.940 I follow her on Twitter,

00:27:40.160 so I see what's been

00:27:41.000 going on there.

00:27:42.540 Apparently, you know,

00:27:43.420 and I don't think

00:27:44.500 this is inaccurate,

00:27:45.680 the other grad students

00:27:47.660 are being quite scathing.

00:27:49.340 Yeah, yeah,

00:27:49.740 that's what I've heard

00:27:50.680 from her and from her tweets,

00:27:52.140 is that at least

00:27:52.900 they're cold,

00:27:53.760 at minimum they're cold,

00:27:55.400 and the professors as well,

00:27:56.800 including the one

00:27:57.440 who told her

00:27:58.040 that she couldn't use

00:27:59.140 her laptop in class

00:28:00.380 because she didn't

00:28:01.240 want to be recorded.

00:28:02.520 I mean,

00:28:02.840 you couldn't script 1.00

00:28:03.700 this level of idiocy. 1.00

00:28:05.160 But my thought is, 1.00

00:28:06.640 students always ask me,

00:28:08.300 Dr. Haskell,

00:28:09.220 can I record

00:28:09.860 what you're talking about?

00:28:10.960 And I say, yes.

00:28:11.560 Yes, the answer is yes.

00:28:12.520 The answer is yes

00:28:13.480 because you know what?

00:28:14.520 I don't say anything

00:28:15.720 in my class

00:28:16.480 that I wouldn't

00:28:17.760 publicly say

00:28:18.660 because I,

00:28:19.780 and I want to be accountable.

00:28:21.520 I want people to know

00:28:22.720 what I'm saying in my class.

00:28:23.780 I want them to know

00:28:24.500 I'm fair,

00:28:25.320 I'm balanced,

00:28:26.140 I present both sides

00:28:27.200 of the argument,

00:28:27.840 I'm not afraid of that.

00:28:29.500 I mean,

00:28:30.220 why are people afraid

00:28:31.240 of accountability?

00:28:32.300 That's beyond my understanding.

00:28:33.720 Yeah, well,

00:28:34.280 that's a very good,

00:28:35.160 that's a very good question.

00:28:37.220 So, okay,

00:28:37.540 so I think what we'll do now

00:28:42.400 is go through this letter

00:28:44.060 because what happened yesterday,

00:28:45.980 I guess,

00:28:46.380 is the president had appointed

00:28:48.280 a third-party fact finder

00:28:50.120 to look into what happened

00:28:51.900 with the Lindsay Shepard affair,

00:28:53.420 right?

00:28:53.600 And there were concerns about that

00:28:54.820 because many people,

00:28:56.360 including Christy Blatchford,

00:28:57.640 were concerned,

00:28:58.300 and the lawyer

00:28:58.720 that's representing Lindsay,

00:29:00.560 Howard Leavitt,

00:29:02.860 Howard Leavitt

00:29:03.460 was concerned

00:29:04.380 that the person

00:29:05.360 who was appointed

00:29:06.140 to do the third-party investigation

00:29:07.740 wouldn't be neutral

00:29:09.360 because he had tweeted

00:29:10.900 his agreement

00:29:11.660 with a variety of,

00:29:13.020 let's call them

00:29:13.540 politically correct issues

00:29:14.580 quite publicly.

00:29:15.500 But it does look like

00:29:16.420 he's done a credible job.

00:29:17.700 That's how it appears to me.

00:29:19.100 Anyways,

00:29:19.560 the president,

00:29:20.440 who was very closed mouth

00:29:23.100 or assiduously neutral

00:29:25.320 about this whole affair,

00:29:26.880 has released a report

00:29:28.020 and I thought we could go through it

00:29:29.500 and talk about

00:29:30.600 whether or not we think

00:29:31.340 that it addressed the issues reasonably.

00:29:33.520 So,

00:29:33.700 because I think it did

00:29:34.440 in some part,

00:29:35.060 but I think it didn't

00:29:35.880 in others.

00:29:36.720 So,

00:29:37.860 this is from

00:29:38.540 McClatchy,

00:29:40.640 Deborah McClatchy,

00:29:41.540 PhD,

00:29:42.120 who's the president

00:29:42.780 and vice chancellor

00:29:44.340 at Wilfrid-Lurie

00:29:45.060 and relatively new at it.

00:29:46.440 So, I mean,

00:29:46.840 she's really being raked

00:29:47.740 through the coals,

00:29:48.500 that's for sure.

00:29:49.160 But she was the vice president 0.61

00:29:50.220 academic,

00:29:50.860 which was the second

00:29:51.620 most senior position

00:29:52.780 for the last five years.

00:29:54.240 So she's not...

00:29:54.940 So she's accustomed to this.

00:29:56.320 Yeah.

00:29:56.640 Okay.

00:29:57.460 Okay.

00:29:57.940 It is,

00:29:58.720 I believe it is time

00:29:59.740 for some clarity

00:30:00.520 around the events

00:30:01.300 of the past few weeks

00:30:02.320 here at Wilfrid-Lurie

00:30:03.180 University stemming

00:30:04.320 from the very regrettable

00:30:05.420 meeting,

00:30:06.120 so that's an interesting

00:30:07.020 turn of phrase

00:30:07.580 to begin with,

00:30:08.500 that followed the showing

00:30:09.360 of a TVO clip

00:30:10.320 by a teaching assistant

00:30:11.340 during a tutorial.

00:30:12.700 As the newly appointed

00:30:13.640 president and vice chancellor

00:30:15.040 of this incredible

00:30:16.000 106-year-old institution,

00:30:17.640 I'm here to set

00:30:18.620 the record straight

00:30:19.380 and announce

00:30:19.900 some important changes.

00:30:21.340 The issue has highlighted

00:30:22.500 some deficiencies,

00:30:24.280 but as importantly,

00:30:25.720 it has created opportunities.

00:30:26.940 Yeah, well,

00:30:28.760 to me,

00:30:29.220 that's a kind of

00:30:30.560 marketing doublespeak.

00:30:32.240 It's like,

00:30:32.560 we could just go

00:30:33.200 with the deficiencies

00:30:34.060 issue for now.

00:30:35.600 Opportunities for Laurier

00:30:36.540 to improve our own performance,

00:30:38.180 to lead a broader discussion

00:30:39.360 on academic freedom

00:30:40.360 and freedom of expression,

00:30:42.460 and opportunities

00:30:43.740 to work together

00:30:44.680 as a community

00:30:45.600 to demonstrate

00:30:46.600 the strengths

00:30:47.140 we have as an institution.

00:30:48.920 When the issue

00:30:49.620 first broke,

00:30:50.340 I erred on the side

00:30:51.300 of caution.

00:30:52.380 As a person

00:30:53.020 and as the president

00:30:54.880 of Laurier,

00:30:55.380 I am sensitive

00:30:56.040 to the viewpoints

00:30:56.880 and concerns

00:30:57.460 of our students,

00:30:58.600 staff,

00:30:59.000 and faculty.

00:31:00.020 As an employer,

00:31:00.760 I am cognizant

00:31:01.540 that the four people

00:31:02.420 who were in that meeting room

00:31:03.440 are employees

00:31:04.240 and one is also a student.

00:31:05.940 All four are entitled

00:31:07.040 to due process.

00:31:08.280 I did not want

00:31:08.940 to rush judgment.

00:31:10.200 Rather,

00:31:10.580 I wanted to ensure

00:31:11.320 we were able

00:31:11.800 to objectively assess the facts

00:31:13.420 and make sound decisions

00:31:14.940 flowing from that assessment.

00:31:16.560 That seems reasonable enough.

00:31:17.900 And I would say

00:31:18.740 the events

00:31:19.340 that have transpired

00:31:20.440 probably justified

00:31:21.420 her approach.

00:31:23.000 Although I had taken issues

00:31:24.360 with some of the things

00:31:25.260 that she had said

00:31:26.520 and not said

00:31:27.080 when she was on the agenda.

00:31:28.360 But whatever.

00:31:29.680 We hired an external fact finder

00:31:31.260 with expertise

00:31:31.880 in human resources issues.

00:31:33.540 I have received the report

00:31:34.640 and we are taking

00:31:35.420 decisive action

00:31:36.380 to ensure these events

00:31:37.420 will not be repeated.

00:31:38.680 The report,

00:31:39.620 along with what we already knew,

00:31:41.080 has led me

00:31:41.620 to the final conclusions,

00:31:42.980 following conclusions

00:31:43.800 and actions.

00:31:45.200 There were numerous

00:31:46.500 errors in judgment

00:31:47.760 made in the handling

00:31:48.920 of the meeting

00:31:49.580 with Ms. Lindsay Shepard,

00:31:51.180 the TA of the tutorial

00:31:52.400 in question.

00:31:53.020 In fact,

00:31:54.440 the meeting

00:31:55.000 never should have happened

00:31:56.380 at all.

00:31:57.340 Okay,

00:31:57.540 that's probably

00:31:58.180 the most damning statement

00:31:59.360 in the entire report,

00:32:00.560 I would say.

00:32:01.580 And then she says,

00:32:02.840 no formal complaint

00:32:04.060 nor informal concern

00:32:05.760 relative to a Laurier policy

00:32:07.480 was registered

00:32:08.540 about the screening

00:32:09.340 of the video.

00:32:10.340 This was confirmed

00:32:11.060 in the fact finding report.

00:32:12.520 Okay,

00:32:12.780 so we can take that apart

00:32:13.800 a little bit.

00:32:15.060 No formal complaint.

00:32:17.080 Okay,

00:32:17.420 so Rambucana claimed

00:32:20.120 that one or more students

00:32:22.420 had complaint.

00:32:24.000 He wouldn't say

00:32:24.740 how many

00:32:25.220 and he wouldn't say

00:32:25.980 what the nature

00:32:26.660 of the complaint was.

00:32:28.080 Now,

00:32:28.300 what this document

00:32:28.980 seems to indicate

00:32:29.840 that is that,

00:32:31.800 well,

00:32:32.480 if there was a complaint,

00:32:33.780 which it leaves vague,

00:32:35.040 there was nothing

00:32:35.680 that would constitute

00:32:36.580 a genuine complaint

00:32:38.000 in an administrative sense.

00:32:39.760 And that's why

00:32:40.400 the meeting

00:32:40.720 should have never happened.

00:32:41.640 So I guess

00:32:42.340 one question would be

00:32:44.080 what,

00:32:46.000 if any,

00:32:46.560 appropriate disciplinary action

00:32:48.320 should be taken

00:32:49.060 against Rambucana

00:32:50.120 and Pimlot?

00:32:51.180 And I don't know

00:32:51.820 the answer to that

00:32:52.700 because,

00:32:53.440 you know,

00:32:53.840 they're not

00:32:54.860 administrative experts

00:32:55.940 and I don't think

00:32:56.720 faculty can be.

00:32:58.220 But,

00:32:59.100 by the same token,

00:33:00.360 I don't feel like

00:33:02.100 I understand

00:33:02.960 exactly what happened

00:33:04.740 to bring about

00:33:05.780 the meeting

00:33:06.160 to begin with.

00:33:06.980 Do you guys know?

00:33:08.700 I mean,

00:33:09.420 whatever we do know,

00:33:10.200 we've had to piece together

00:33:11.340 from different media reports

00:33:13.320 because,

00:33:13.840 as has been said,

00:33:16.160 our president

00:33:17.060 is not releasing

00:33:17.940 the findings of this.

00:33:20.240 Like,

00:33:20.480 this is going to be,

00:33:21.720 this is a secret,

00:33:22.520 the independent investigation,

00:33:24.300 we will never know

00:33:25.600 what it actually says.

00:33:26.800 We don't know

00:33:27.500 what all the recommendations are.

00:33:29.040 I think we can take her

00:33:30.240 at her word

00:33:30.820 that she's telling us

00:33:32.400 what's going to happen.

00:33:32.740 So why is she making it secret

00:33:34.180 or keeping it secret?

00:33:35.420 Is that,

00:33:35.700 is that this concern

00:33:37.540 with,

00:33:38.140 what do you call it,

00:33:38.900 confidentiality

00:33:39.800 that seems to be

00:33:40.680 the,

00:33:41.520 what,

00:33:42.100 the camouflage

00:33:43.660 behind which

00:33:44.500 these things

00:33:44.960 are always hidden?

00:33:45.760 That seems to be implied

00:33:47.260 or even said explicitly,

00:33:49.320 but I've seen other cases

00:33:50.700 where there's been

00:33:51.620 disciplinary measures

00:33:52.840 and,

00:33:53.920 and we,

00:33:55.380 we get more details

00:33:56.400 than this,

00:33:57.460 right?

00:33:57.800 So,

00:33:58.220 so I don't know,

00:33:59.240 I don't know the level

00:34:00.120 of confidentiality

00:34:01.300 that is required under law,

00:34:02.780 but what I can say,

00:34:04.200 and I'll let Will talk

00:34:05.340 about what the disciplinary

00:34:06.720 actions can be.

00:34:07.500 Let's keep in mind

00:34:08.600 that when Rambukana

00:34:10.600 said that there

00:34:12.180 had been a complaint

00:34:13.160 and it says here

00:34:14.440 that there wasn't,

00:34:15.780 he then echoes that

00:34:17.360 in his apology

00:34:18.280 to Lindsay.

00:34:19.920 He then says,

00:34:21.040 of course,

00:34:21.820 and I'm,

00:34:22.340 I'm paraphrasing here,

00:34:23.460 so I'm not being

00:34:24.100 completely accurate

00:34:24.960 in terms of what

00:34:25.980 he exactly said,

00:34:26.960 but he said something like,

00:34:28.400 of course,

00:34:28.840 there are things

00:34:29.280 I can't discuss

00:34:29.820 because of the complaint

00:34:31.120 that was made

00:34:31.640 by a student.

00:34:32.480 Right.

00:34:32.720 So he's echoing

00:34:33.900 what seems to be

00:34:35.060 an untruth.

00:34:36.020 Yes.

00:34:36.580 And,

00:34:37.220 well,

00:34:37.820 this is about

00:34:38.380 as close a statement

00:34:39.240 as you might imagine

00:34:40.220 in a statement like this,

00:34:41.620 stating that it was

00:34:42.380 an untruth.

00:34:43.240 I mean,

00:34:43.580 he said,

00:34:44.360 she said,

00:34:45.380 no formal complaint

00:34:46.720 nor informal concern

00:34:48.840 relative to a Laurier policy

00:34:50.640 was registered.

00:34:51.540 I mean,

00:34:51.800 that's,

00:34:52.460 that's,

00:34:54.080 that's as close

00:34:55.700 as you can get

00:34:56.480 to coming right out

00:34:57.480 and saying that

00:34:58.420 the statement

00:34:59.440 that there was a complaint

00:35:00.780 was a falsehood.

00:35:01.700 And I just want to follow

00:35:02.620 that thread for a second.

00:35:04.060 So here we have

00:35:05.400 a controversy

00:35:06.160 that was started

00:35:07.260 on an untruth.

00:35:11.760 And it seems to be

00:35:13.180 that this is part

00:35:14.400 of the whole

00:35:15.420 modus operandi

00:35:16.880 here

00:35:17.640 when we hear

00:35:18.420 and there's been harm.

00:35:19.960 Right.

00:35:20.440 And it's unsafe.

00:35:21.480 Right.

00:35:21.900 Daily violence.

00:35:22.420 Daily violence.

00:35:23.660 Although,

00:35:24.140 again,

00:35:24.680 when the media,

00:35:25.960 Global National News,

00:35:27.300 Globe and Mail,

00:35:27.880 checked in

00:35:28.300 to see if there were

00:35:28.920 any police reports

00:35:30.000 related to

00:35:31.260 any harassment

00:35:32.220 or any threats,

00:35:33.860 no police reports.

00:35:34.880 Yeah.

00:35:35.200 Same thing happened

00:35:35.860 at the University of Toronto.

00:35:37.000 So,

00:35:37.400 so at some point,

00:35:38.360 don't we have to say

00:35:39.060 there's a boy

00:35:39.640 who cried wolf?

00:35:40.580 Mm-hmm.

00:35:41.040 Well,

00:35:41.340 this is even,

00:35:42.100 this is more egregious

00:35:43.220 even though

00:35:43.660 than claiming harm.

00:35:44.860 I mean,

00:35:45.060 because,

00:35:45.480 you know,

00:35:45.680 maybe people were

00:35:46.320 getting nasty tweets

00:35:47.320 and so forth

00:35:47.920 and I suspect

00:35:48.760 they were.

00:35:50.180 But the thing is,

00:35:52.040 is that Rambucana

00:35:52.900 and Pimlott

00:35:53.540 directly claimed

00:35:54.840 that there had been

00:35:55.640 a complaint.

00:35:56.420 Right.

00:35:56.700 And so that's

00:35:57.300 a big problem

00:35:58.160 that isn't

00:35:58.680 thoroughly addressed here.

00:35:59.980 Well,

00:36:00.280 and in either

00:36:01.580 somebody heard

00:36:03.320 about the tutorial

00:36:04.740 and the fact

00:36:05.480 that a Peterson

00:36:06.060 video was shown

00:36:07.240 and,

00:36:08.580 or Rambucana

00:36:09.840 found out somehow,

00:36:11.200 but he decided

00:36:12.080 that was unacceptable.

00:36:13.480 Mm-hmm.

00:36:14.260 And that the right

00:36:15.300 way to approach it

00:36:16.060 was to claim

00:36:16.660 that a student

00:36:17.260 had complained

00:36:18.000 because it's not

00:36:18.840 a problem

00:36:19.280 that he found it,

00:36:20.300 it's not such a big problem

00:36:21.700 that he found it unacceptable,

00:36:23.080 let's say.

00:36:23.520 It is his class.

00:36:24.940 Like,

00:36:25.260 he has a right

00:36:25.840 to talk to his TA

00:36:27.180 about what's going

00:36:27.900 to be shown

00:36:28.340 and what's not

00:36:28.880 going to be shown,

00:36:29.680 even though he handled it,

00:36:31.180 I think,

00:36:31.680 reprehensibly in that meeting.

00:36:33.300 But,

00:36:33.880 he could come out

00:36:35.400 and say,

00:36:35.720 look,

00:36:35.980 like,

00:36:36.320 that isn't what,

00:36:37.240 the sort of thing

00:36:37.700 I want to be discussed

00:36:38.540 in my class.

00:36:39.160 I don't agree with Peterson. 1.00

00:36:40.080 I think he's a jerk. 1.00

00:36:41.640 And, 1.00

00:36:42.020 like,

00:36:42.480 here's the other things

00:36:43.380 you should be concentrating on.

00:36:44.840 But to come out

00:36:45.500 and say,

00:36:46.540 a student complained,

00:36:47.920 and then to buttress that 0.96

00:36:49.120 with the accusation

00:36:50.420 that she had violated

00:36:51.360 federal and provincial law,

00:36:52.940 as well as the university.

00:36:53.720 And to bring in

00:36:54.440 Andrea Joel.

00:36:55.320 Exactly.

00:36:55.640 And I don't understand

00:36:56.540 why Joel was there

00:36:57.500 without some sort

00:36:58.300 of formal paperwork

00:36:59.300 or evidence

00:37:01.380 of a complaint.

00:37:02.680 Well,

00:37:02.900 I think that

00:37:03.660 the reason for that

00:37:06.020 is that

00:37:06.400 the positions

00:37:07.360 that people like Joel

00:37:08.560 occupy

00:37:09.360 are so ill-defined

00:37:11.420 and so fundamentally

00:37:12.780 reprehensible

00:37:13.540 in their organization,

00:37:14.740 in their aims,

00:37:15.960 is that this is exactly

00:37:17.020 the sort of thing

00:37:17.640 that you would expect.

00:37:18.520 And so I thought,

00:37:19.860 she didn't say much

00:37:20.600 in that little

00:37:22.040 inquisitorial recording,

00:37:23.580 but I thought

00:37:24.060 the things she did say

00:37:25.140 were spectacularly

00:37:26.960 concerning,

00:37:29.640 let's put it that way.

00:37:31.040 So what's the discipline?

00:37:32.280 What is the discipline?

00:37:33.560 Do you have any sense of this?

00:37:35.360 Like,

00:37:35.620 I can't speculate.

00:37:37.200 I don't know.

00:37:37.680 Communications?

00:37:38.700 Well,

00:37:39.300 what happens

00:37:41.100 when somebody lies

00:37:42.200 or when somebody

00:37:42.960 brings,

00:37:44.220 you know,

00:37:44.820 forth a complaint

00:37:45.540 that wasn't a complaint?

00:37:46.480 I don't know.

00:37:47.120 Well,

00:37:47.240 that is,

00:37:47.700 well,

00:37:48.100 that's one of the things

00:37:48.820 this document

00:37:49.420 does not address.

00:37:50.540 Like,

00:37:50.760 it's a big problem.

00:37:52.360 It's a big problem

00:37:53.500 if there was no complaint

00:37:55.280 and the reason

00:37:56.420 she was disciplined

00:37:57.180 was because there was,

00:37:58.500 because there was a claim

00:37:59.440 that there was a complaint.

00:38:00.540 Like,

00:38:00.740 that's,

00:38:01.520 well,

00:38:01.940 we can,

00:38:02.300 we don't have to beat

00:38:03.120 that to death anymore.

00:38:03.580 But what about if there's a claim

00:38:04.120 that there's harm?

00:38:05.980 What about if there's a claim

00:38:06.880 that the campus

00:38:07.700 has daily violence?

00:38:08.960 What if there's a claim

00:38:10.040 that such and such area

00:38:12.240 has become unsafe?

00:38:13.440 Does that need to be proven?

00:38:15.340 Or should we be seeking

00:38:16.800 disciplinary action

00:38:17.760 against people

00:38:18.240 who are making those claims?

00:38:19.220 Well,

00:38:19.480 that's a very good,

00:38:20.520 that's a very good question.

00:38:21.740 Okay,

00:38:22.020 so that's a problem

00:38:23.940 that isn't addressed

00:38:24.740 in this report.

00:38:25.480 It's a big one.

00:38:26.500 Okay,

00:38:27.160 and I mean,

00:38:28.020 the president

00:38:28.480 is obviously not happy

00:38:30.480 with this

00:38:31.420 because she also says

00:38:32.820 the errors in judgment,

00:38:37.320 okay,

00:38:37.920 no formal complaint,

00:38:39.120 no informal concern

00:38:40.740 was registered

00:38:41.420 about the screening

00:38:42.060 of the video.

00:38:42.780 This was confirmed

00:38:43.600 in the fact-finding report.

00:38:44.880 So they're not beating

00:38:45.620 around the bush about this.

00:38:46.740 They're stating it 0.56

00:38:47.460 very clearly.

00:38:48.900 The errors in judgment

00:38:50.160 were compounded

00:38:51.760 by misapplication

00:38:53.120 of existing university

00:38:54.280 policies and procedures.

00:38:56.120 Basic guidelines,

00:38:57.420 basic guidelines

00:38:58.340 and best practices

00:38:59.380 on how to appropriately

00:39:00.520 execute the roles

00:39:01.500 and responsibilities

00:39:02.220 of staff and faculty

00:39:04.040 were ignored,

00:39:05.520 not just not understood.

00:39:08.300 Ignored

00:39:08.780 or not understood.

00:39:09.860 Okay, 0.97

00:39:10.360 that's a pretty damn 0.78

00:39:11.260 damning statement 0.63

00:39:12.060 there too. 0.99

00:39:13.140 I don't even know

00:39:14.440 all the particulars here.

00:39:15.880 I heard Howard Levitt

00:39:16.940 say that she was entitled

00:39:19.220 to some sort of represent,

00:39:20.540 Lindsay was entitled

00:39:21.180 to some representation.

00:39:22.500 Under the bylaws

00:39:23.200 of our university,

00:39:24.140 she was supposed

00:39:24.720 to have had that.

00:39:25.360 That nobody offered

00:39:26.260 that to her.

00:39:27.220 Right,

00:39:27.760 so that's an administrative

00:39:28.640 follow-up

00:39:29.260 at the level

00:39:29.760 of employee-employer

00:39:30.780 relationships

00:39:31.320 to say nothing

00:39:32.080 of the academic issues

00:39:33.640 at stake.

00:39:34.100 We don't have

00:39:34.720 policies and procedures

00:39:35.520 about how to carry out

00:39:36.480 an inquisition.

00:39:37.780 That's not what she's saying.

00:39:38.880 I think there's

00:39:40.060 a medieval document

00:39:40.960 that you can use.

00:39:43.440 But one thing,

00:39:44.280 Jordan,

00:39:44.480 I want to point out here

00:39:45.420 is that the errors

00:39:46.800 in judgment

00:39:47.280 were compounded

00:39:48.060 by misapplication

00:39:49.400 of existing

00:39:50.360 university policies.

00:39:52.260 Misapplication

00:39:52.700 of existing

00:39:53.220 university policies.

00:39:54.420 At the end

00:39:54.880 of this document,

00:39:55.520 she's going to say

00:39:56.240 that our gendered

00:39:57.380 and sexual violence

00:39:58.160 policy needs

00:39:58.860 to be reviewed.

00:39:59.820 So which is it?

00:40:01.960 Was it an error

00:40:03.680 in application

00:40:04.320 or an error in policy?

00:40:05.940 And this is confusing.

00:40:07.900 Yeah, it is.

00:40:08.440 Because my suggestion

00:40:10.020 would be

00:40:10.520 the policy

00:40:11.500 is terribly flawed.

00:40:12.980 We have a colleague

00:40:13.620 who's one of the

00:40:15.000 free speech proponents

00:40:16.500 at our university,

00:40:17.340 Dr. Andrew Robinson.

00:40:18.780 He is an expert

00:40:19.680 in human rights law

00:40:20.720 and he went through

00:40:21.800 our gendered

00:40:22.580 and sexual violence policy

00:40:23.680 with a fine-tooth comb

00:40:24.680 and he says

00:40:25.280 this document

00:40:26.720 is unworkable.

00:40:28.460 It makes thought

00:40:29.520 a crime

00:40:30.120 and he wrote

00:40:31.400 an op-ed

00:40:31.860 to that effect.

00:40:32.440 Yeah, I remember.

00:40:33.140 So my point would be...

00:40:34.880 And who did he...

00:40:36.400 What organization

00:40:37.180 is he part of?

00:40:38.020 He's a laureate.

00:40:38.800 Yeah, but which sub...

00:40:40.100 Which human rights

00:40:41.600 and human diversity?

00:40:42.220 Right.

00:40:42.660 That's exactly it.

00:40:43.840 This is his field.

00:40:44.720 Yes, exactly.

00:40:45.400 And so when he looked

00:40:46.280 at this, he says

00:40:46.860 this goes beyond

00:40:48.280 what the Ontario government

00:40:49.440 was even asking for.

00:40:51.060 And it gets to the point

00:40:52.300 where it actually makes...

00:40:54.860 You can be guilty

00:40:55.840 of thought crime.

00:40:58.780 You can be guilty

00:40:59.420 of transphobia

00:41:00.960 without any intent.

00:41:03.020 Oh yeah, well that's the same

00:41:04.140 in the Ontario Human Rights Commission.

00:41:04.820 If someone says

00:41:06.240 I've been harmed mentally,

00:41:07.280 that is enough

00:41:08.140 for conviction

00:41:08.920 under this particular policy.

00:41:10.960 It's the same 0.53

00:41:11.880 with the Ontario

00:41:12.480 Human Rights Commission's policies.

00:41:14.080 Intent doesn't matter.

00:41:15.440 So this isn't misapplication.

00:41:17.380 I'm saying...

00:41:18.100 Yeah, that's the issue.

00:41:18.780 Did Adria Joelle

00:41:19.840 actually get it right?

00:41:21.880 Right.

00:41:22.440 And so is it

00:41:23.260 a misapplication or do...

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00:44:11.700 So it'll be interesting

00:44:13.020 if the university

00:44:13.880 does discipline her

00:44:15.020 if she gets legal representation

00:44:17.060 who claims that she was actually

00:44:19.200 applying the policies correctly

00:44:20.560 because that is the question,

00:44:22.160 right?

00:44:22.400 So,

00:44:22.720 but it could be two things.

00:44:23.860 It could be the policies

00:44:24.720 are flawed

00:44:25.300 and this is the consequence

00:44:26.520 and they were misapplied.

00:44:28.240 We don't know.

00:44:28.980 But there's definitely

00:44:30.060 ambiguity here

00:44:31.080 and that's a crucial issue.

00:44:32.820 I think Lindsay was guilty

00:44:34.100 under the gender

00:44:35.360 and sexual violence policy

00:44:36.680 and she was,

00:44:38.320 Adria was right

00:44:38.940 in accusing her.

00:44:39.840 She was wrong about C-16.

00:44:41.860 It would have been

00:44:42.460 an Ontario Human Rights

00:44:43.780 code violation.

00:44:45.900 But GSB,

00:44:47.300 she was right.

00:44:47.940 If there had been a complaint.

00:44:49.140 Right.

00:44:49.380 Right.

00:44:49.820 And how many angels

00:44:53.340 can dance on the head

00:44:54.020 of a hand?

00:44:54.640 Okay.

00:44:55.040 Procedures

00:44:55.680 in how to apply

00:44:57.260 university policies,

00:44:58.480 same issue here,

00:44:59.500 and under what circumstances

00:45:00.840 were not followed.

00:45:02.040 The training of key individuals

00:45:03.640 to meet the expectations

00:45:04.780 of the university

00:45:05.560 in addressing

00:45:06.140 such an issue

00:45:06.860 as such as this

00:45:08.300 was not sufficient

00:45:09.440 and must be improved.

00:45:11.440 Okay.

00:45:11.920 The question is,

00:45:12.860 who are these key individuals?

00:45:15.660 Do they mean

00:45:16.200 Rambucana,

00:45:16.960 Pimlot,

00:45:17.420 and Joel?

00:45:18.180 Are they putting

00:45:18.820 all three of those

00:45:19.460 in there?

00:45:20.020 And then the next question

00:45:21.200 would be,

00:45:22.180 how are they going

00:45:23.060 to improve

00:45:24.020 the training

00:45:24.640 of key individuals?

00:45:25.660 Because that actually

00:45:26.260 worries me

00:45:26.820 as a faculty member,

00:45:27.900 right?

00:45:28.160 Because whenever

00:45:29.760 the administration

00:45:30.440 decides that it's

00:45:31.500 going to engage

00:45:32.240 in some additional

00:45:32.980 training of faculty members,

00:45:34.340 then that raises

00:45:35.180 the hair on the back

00:45:36.140 of my neck.

00:45:36.620 Like,

00:45:36.780 is this unconscious

00:45:37.560 bias training?

00:45:38.500 Is that what

00:45:39.180 they're talking about?

00:45:40.240 Which has been,

00:45:41.020 well,

00:45:41.400 I think,

00:45:42.120 I can't remember.

00:45:43.840 I've just read recently.

00:45:44.720 Nozak himself,

00:45:45.920 who developed the IAT,

00:45:47.260 just published a review paper.

00:45:48.760 Stating clearly,

00:45:50.400 stating clearly that

00:45:51.880 attempts to reduce

00:45:53.100 unconscious bias

00:45:54.000 by explicit training,

00:45:55.900 there's no evidence

00:45:56.740 whatsoever that they have

00:45:58.120 any positive effect.

00:45:59.040 And that was Nozak himself

00:46:00.360 who helped develop the IAT.

00:46:02.500 Because the little coterie

00:46:03.540 that developed that test,

00:46:06.220 the chair of the Harvard

00:46:07.920 psychology department,

00:46:09.240 I'll remember her name

00:46:09.960 in a minute,

00:46:10.700 Greenwald,

00:46:11.740 Anthony Greenwald,

00:46:12.580 and Nozak,

00:46:14.420 what's her name,

00:46:15.120 Mazarin Banaji,

00:46:16.100 three of them developed it.

00:46:17.180 They're starting to fragment a bit

00:46:18.620 because the thing

00:46:19.640 has been pushed way too hard.

00:46:21.280 Right?

00:46:21.440 It's not a test

00:46:22.520 that's valid

00:46:23.180 for the purposes

00:46:23.820 that it's being put to.

00:46:25.080 And they know it perfectly well,

00:46:26.460 even though they're

00:46:27.060 consulting about it

00:46:28.400 and have made

00:46:29.240 quite an enterprise

00:46:30.100 out of it.

00:46:30.960 But Nozak is,

00:46:32.160 you know,

00:46:32.480 seems to be

00:46:32.980 a pretty credible scientist

00:46:34.020 and he's actually

00:46:34.660 looking at the data.

00:46:35.600 And it's clear

00:46:36.120 that these unconscious

00:46:37.520 bias training programs

00:46:38.720 have zero positive impact.

00:46:40.880 There's some evidence

00:46:41.560 that they have negative impact

00:46:42.780 because, of course,

00:46:43.440 people don't like being accused

00:46:44.620 of being unconscious racists.

00:46:46.520 Right?

00:46:46.920 So I'm wondering,

00:46:47.600 is that the kind of training?

00:46:48.720 And there's nothing in here

00:46:50.200 that says this,

00:46:50.960 but this is the problem

00:46:51.880 that it says

00:46:52.800 there will be training.

00:46:54.520 Unconscious bias,

00:46:55.400 is that the same

00:46:56.040 as systemic discrimination?

00:46:58.280 Well,

00:46:58.640 it's the neurological equivalent

00:47:00.800 of systemic discrimination.

00:47:02.060 So imagine

00:47:02.920 systemic discrimination

00:47:04.360 is built

00:47:05.080 into the structure

00:47:05.940 of the system,

00:47:06.940 right?

00:47:07.920 Unconscious bias

00:47:08.860 is built

00:47:09.460 into your perceptual structures.

00:47:11.600 So even before you act

00:47:13.580 or think,

00:47:14.420 you're biased towards,

00:47:16.080 against the members

00:47:16.840 of an out group.

00:47:17.600 That's the claim.

00:47:18.340 And not only biased

00:47:19.500 against the members

00:47:20.820 of out group,

00:47:21.760 which is a different claim

00:47:23.000 than biased in favor

00:47:24.200 of your in group,

00:47:25.060 which, of course,

00:47:25.520 almost every human being is,

00:47:26.840 especially if you think

00:47:27.600 about your family.

00:47:28.900 But that implicit bias

00:47:32.120 also manifests itself

00:47:33.960 in behaviors

00:47:34.600 that would essentially

00:47:36.020 be categorizable

00:47:37.480 as racist,

00:47:39.260 at least at a low level.

00:47:40.320 And there's very little evidence

00:47:41.660 that the implicit bias

00:47:43.000 that this test

00:47:43.740 hypothetically measures

00:47:45.180 manifests itself

00:47:46.720 in measurable behavior.

00:47:48.620 So it's...

00:47:49.460 We went through

00:47:50.020 a thing in the summer

00:47:50.820 where they ran

00:47:52.340 a regression

00:47:52.880 on salaries

00:47:53.820 at Laurier

00:47:55.100 and found that

00:47:56.000 women were paid 0.99

00:47:57.580 a little bit less

00:47:58.740 than men

00:47:59.120 by about 4%.

00:48:00.100 And so they gave all the...

00:48:01.540 Did they include age

00:48:03.200 as a covariate?

00:48:04.620 The answer to that

00:48:05.580 would be no.

00:48:06.540 The model was...

00:48:08.420 It had rank

00:48:10.580 and I don't know

00:48:12.300 that it had age.

00:48:13.240 It only had 4 categories

00:48:14.920 of professor, though.

00:48:16.060 It had faculty, rank...

00:48:17.180 When this has been done

00:48:17.880 at University of Michigan,

00:48:19.300 for instance,

00:48:19.660 because I looked

00:48:20.080 at comparables,

00:48:21.420 they had 21 categories

00:48:22.840 of professor

00:48:23.720 or 21...

00:48:25.720 Departments.

00:48:26.340 Departments.

00:48:26.900 They really broke it down.

00:48:27.740 And at ours,

00:48:28.620 we had 4.

00:48:29.320 So you were comparing

00:48:30.180 people, for instance,

00:48:31.780 within the business school

00:48:32.780 who might be in marketing

00:48:34.300 versus someone who...

00:48:35.420 Psychology.

00:48:36.620 Yeah.

00:48:37.420 Well, I know from

00:48:38.600 setting up regression

00:48:39.460 equations ad nauseum

00:48:40.860 that the covariates

00:48:43.040 that you include

00:48:43.660 in the equation

00:48:44.280 determine the outcome

00:48:45.220 of the equation.

00:48:46.820 Well, the conclusion

00:48:47.640 they reached,

00:48:48.400 the explanation

00:48:49.020 for the statistical

00:48:50.120 significance

00:48:50.580 of the gender coefficient

00:48:51.400 was systemic discrimination.

00:48:53.200 Right, right, right.

00:48:54.040 Of course.

00:48:54.520 Well, that wasn't

00:48:55.680 the conclusion

00:48:56.200 they reached.

00:48:56.860 That was the conclusion

00:48:58.040 they stepped into

00:48:59.100 the inquiry with

00:49:00.200 and they gerrymandered

00:49:01.480 the statistics

00:49:02.100 until they found

00:49:02.860 a regression equation

00:49:03.740 that supported

00:49:04.280 their initial claim.

00:49:06.280 So that's not an inquiry.

00:49:08.340 But so there's...

00:49:09.200 What I hear you saying

00:49:10.020 is there's really

00:49:10.680 no scientific basis

00:49:11.860 for this idea

00:49:12.620 that there could be

00:49:13.320 this unconscious bias

00:49:14.420 that could drive...

00:49:16.500 Well, there is evidence

00:49:17.780 that we're full

00:49:18.520 of unconscious biases.

00:49:19.820 I mean, we couldn't even see

00:49:20.960 if we didn't have

00:49:21.660 unconscious biases

00:49:22.520 because we have to use

00:49:23.560 shortcuts and heuristics

00:49:24.780 to just process the world.

00:49:26.860 The issue is

00:49:27.880 what measurable impact

00:49:30.600 does that have

00:49:31.240 on behavior?

00:49:31.980 That's the first thing

00:49:32.820 and it's minimal

00:49:33.620 at best.

00:49:34.600 First of all,

00:49:35.240 it's not easy

00:49:35.900 to distinguish

00:49:36.500 between racial bias

00:49:37.540 and novelty avoidance.

00:49:39.680 Right?

00:49:40.000 Because what you'd have to do

00:49:41.020 is you'd have to find

00:49:41.920 a person in a racial group,

00:49:43.560 say a white person,

00:49:44.380 who was just as familiar

00:49:45.980 with black people

00:49:46.900 as with white people

00:49:47.840 and then show

00:49:48.720 that there was a bias

00:49:49.560 because otherwise

00:49:50.060 you can't distinguish it

00:49:51.020 from a novelty,

00:49:52.040 novelty aversion.

00:49:52.860 and people are characterized

00:49:54.320 by novelty aversion.

00:49:55.740 You already have developed

00:49:57.700 a preference for that cup

00:49:59.120 over this cup.

00:50:00.260 I mean, it happens that quickly

00:50:01.380 and it's that subtle

00:50:02.640 and great and grand,

00:50:04.420 let's say.

00:50:05.180 So the first issue is

00:50:06.720 we can't really distinguish

00:50:07.960 unconscious bias

00:50:09.120 from perceptual habit,

00:50:10.880 let's say,

00:50:11.300 or stereotyping from categorization

00:50:14.000 for that matter

00:50:14.920 and that literature

00:50:15.700 has been under assault

00:50:16.640 in a major way

00:50:17.500 in the social psychology literature.

00:50:18.840 But even assuming

00:50:20.480 that an implicit bias

00:50:21.540 does exist,

00:50:22.820 which you might,

00:50:24.460 there might be grounds for

00:50:25.580 by noting that people

00:50:26.760 do have an in-group preference,

00:50:28.480 say, for their family members

00:50:29.680 and perhaps even

00:50:30.320 for their racial members,

00:50:31.300 although it's hard

00:50:31.800 to distinguish that

00:50:32.520 from novelty

00:50:33.060 or from familiarity preference.

00:50:35.560 Putting all that aside,

00:50:37.460 which you can't,

00:50:39.480 there's no evidence

00:50:40.640 that these courses

00:50:41.680 that are put in place

00:50:42.840 to reduce that bias

00:50:44.280 have any effect whatsoever

00:50:45.940 on the bias.

00:50:46.920 It's complete,

00:50:47.620 even the people

00:50:48.620 who are pushing the IAT

00:50:49.780 and the idea of implicit bias

00:50:51.400 are willing to say,

00:50:52.900 well, all these things

00:50:53.640 that we're doing

00:50:54.060 to try to reduce it

00:50:55.200 have absolutely no effect

00:50:56.560 or, if anything,

00:50:57.580 a negative effect.

00:50:58.600 And again,

00:50:59.080 we don't know

00:50:59.800 what the training

00:51:00.520 is going to be.

00:51:01.140 I guess where we went

00:51:02.100 down this rabbit hole

00:51:03.000 was we don't know

00:51:03.780 what the training

00:51:04.200 is going to be, right?

00:51:05.200 We don't know.

00:51:06.040 We have no evidence

00:51:07.460 to assume,

00:51:08.200 we have no reason

00:51:08.760 to assume that the training

00:51:09.900 is going to address

00:51:10.720 the proper problem

00:51:11.600 and every reason

00:51:12.480 to be skeptical

00:51:13.080 that it won't.

00:51:14.180 Okay, so next,

00:51:14.900 there is also

00:51:17.480 institutional failure

00:51:18.700 that allowed this to happen.

00:51:20.360 Well, we don't know

00:51:21.020 what that means

00:51:21.640 because I'd like to know

00:51:22.380 what the institutional failure was

00:51:23.940 but that's a pretty broad

00:51:25.580 and she says

00:51:26.560 when there is

00:51:27.360 institutional failure

00:51:28.340 responsibility

00:51:29.000 ultimately starts

00:51:30.380 and ends with me.

00:51:31.340 Well, that's a nice statement

00:51:32.500 and okay,

00:51:33.160 she's taking responsibility

00:51:34.140 for it

00:51:34.720 but unless it's specified

00:51:36.040 what the institutional failures are

00:51:37.680 it's just hand-waving.

00:51:38.580 Going forward

00:51:39.680 we will implement

00:51:40.420 improved training

00:51:41.340 and new procedures

00:51:42.420 and engage in a very specific

00:51:44.120 administrative review

00:51:45.440 details would be nice

00:51:46.960 to strengthen

00:51:47.780 and enhance confidence

00:51:48.900 in what students

00:51:49.660 and employees

00:51:50.160 can expect at Laurier.

00:51:51.900 Specifically,

00:51:52.940 there was no wrongdoing

00:51:54.860 on the part of Ms. Shepard

00:51:56.340 in showing the clip

00:51:57.280 from TVO

00:51:57.980 in her tutorial.

00:52:00.160 Showing a TVO clip

00:52:01.180 for the purposes

00:52:01.780 of an academic discussion

00:52:02.900 is a reasonable

00:52:03.740 classroom teaching tool.

00:52:05.280 Well, thank God for that

00:52:06.380 given that TVO

00:52:07.300 is a publicly funded

00:52:08.540 middle-of-the-road

00:52:10.780 left-leaning

00:52:11.760 liberal news media

00:52:13.440 establishment.

00:52:14.320 A credible one

00:52:14.960 for sure.

00:52:15.720 I wish that

00:52:16.760 early on

00:52:18.440 immediately following

00:52:20.720 this story breaking

00:52:21.680 that administration

00:52:23.760 had said exactly that

00:52:25.140 because remember

00:52:26.320 for more than a month now

00:52:27.620 the public

00:52:29.160 the Canadian public

00:52:30.220 has wondered

00:52:30.860 can you show

00:52:32.320 TVOntario videos

00:52:34.320 in classrooms at Laurier?

00:52:36.560 Right.

00:52:37.820 And I'm not

00:52:38.800 I'm not joking.

00:52:39.620 Yeah.

00:52:40.080 Like this was

00:52:40.840 Right.

00:52:41.420 Well, that is the question.

00:52:42.380 And there has not been

00:52:43.760 an answer from administration

00:52:44.920 on that very basic question.

00:52:47.080 Yeah.

00:52:47.520 And so people

00:52:48.400 who are thinking

00:52:49.020 about sending their kids

00:52:50.380 to Laurier

00:52:50.940 are thinking

00:52:52.100 is that the place

00:52:53.120 where they didn't know

00:52:54.660 whether or not

00:52:55.700 you could show

00:52:56.400 public television

00:52:57.620 in a classroom?

00:52:58.980 Is that the place

00:53:00.300 where it took

00:53:01.040 a independent investigation

00:53:02.840 to come to the conclusion

00:53:05.080 that it's okay

00:53:06.280 to play a clip

00:53:07.600 from the agenda?

00:53:08.520 Right.

00:53:08.920 That

00:53:09.160 Well, we still don't

00:53:11.000 yes, exactly.

00:53:12.160 It is the place

00:53:12.960 where all of that

00:53:13.520 was in doubt.

00:53:14.320 That is Wilfrid Laurier.

00:53:15.520 It is the place

00:53:16.200 where those things

00:53:16.880 were in doubt.

00:53:18.000 And so they're not

00:53:18.480 quite as in doubt

00:53:19.260 but we also still

00:53:20.180 don't know

00:53:20.560 what else is

00:53:21.240 what else

00:53:22.400 is still in doubt.

00:53:23.900 Right.

00:53:24.140 Because if that can be

00:53:24.980 you wonder

00:53:25.400 well, you know

00:53:26.220 that's pretty damn innocuous.

00:53:27.540 Okay.

00:53:28.540 Any instructional material

00:53:29.740 needs to be grounded

00:53:30.880 in the appropriate

00:53:31.680 academic underpinnings

00:53:32.820 to put it in context

00:53:33.780 for the relevance

00:53:34.500 of the learning outcomes

00:53:35.500 of the course.

00:53:38.620 Yeah.

00:53:39.180 Well, the question there is

00:53:40.200 any instructional material

00:53:41.920 needs to be grounded

00:53:42.900 in the appropriate

00:53:43.920 academic underpinnings

00:53:45.340 to put it in context.

00:53:46.520 The question there is

00:53:47.320 who decides

00:53:48.500 what the appropriate

00:53:50.060 academic underpinnings

00:53:51.420 to put it in context are?

00:53:53.160 Because that's supposed

00:53:53.840 to be the

00:53:54.320 that's supposed to be

00:53:55.260 the bailiwick

00:53:56.040 of the professor.

00:53:57.120 Period.

00:53:57.880 Right.

00:53:58.240 And with some leeway

00:53:59.600 for the teaching assistants

00:54:00.980 and so on.

00:54:02.120 But I worry

00:54:02.880 when I hear about context

00:54:04.500 because I've seen

00:54:05.960 opinion pieces

00:54:07.000 from some of my colleagues

00:54:08.540 who tell me

00:54:09.560 that the appropriate context

00:54:10.980 is within the frame

00:54:12.720 of social justice

00:54:13.820 or within the frame

00:54:14.700 of critical theory.

00:54:16.260 Well, that's what

00:54:16.900 Rambucana said to Shepard

00:54:18.500 was that

00:54:18.960 well, part of the reason

00:54:20.320 you were wrong

00:54:20.960 was because you

00:54:21.740 portrayed it neutrally.

00:54:23.220 If you had contextualized it

00:54:25.140 essentially

00:54:25.740 if you had contextualized

00:54:27.100 Peterson as Hitler 0.76

00:54:28.200 which was Rambucana's statement

00:54:29.760 then it would have been

00:54:30.700 perhaps appropriate

00:54:31.540 to air the video.

00:54:33.980 And that is equivalent

00:54:35.140 to leading the witness.

00:54:36.720 Right?

00:54:37.160 And leading the witness

00:54:37.880 is when we have a lawyer

00:54:39.200 an authority figure

00:54:40.520 telling the person

00:54:41.780 on the stand

00:54:42.360 what to say.

00:54:43.760 Taking my ideas

00:54:44.680 and putting them

00:54:45.320 into that person's mouth.

00:54:46.800 Right.

00:54:47.140 Well, that's how you produce

00:54:48.060 unconscious bias.

00:54:49.060 Well, but my point would be

00:54:51.960 so I'm not saying

00:54:52.980 that this is in here

00:54:53.940 but we really need clarifying.

00:54:55.680 Yeah, well, that's a sentence

00:54:57.340 that I'm not happy about.

00:55:00.340 Appropriate academic underpinnings

00:55:01.960 to put it in context

00:55:03.080 for the relevance

00:55:03.780 of the learning outcomes

00:55:04.880 of the course.

00:55:05.860 Jesus, it's just

00:55:06.860 administrative double speak

00:55:08.620 the whole way through.

00:55:09.440 Yeah, well, that's the question

00:55:22.460 is who decides that.

00:55:23.720 The answer to that

00:55:24.640 there's a simple answer to that.

00:55:26.320 The professor.

00:55:27.180 That's the answer.

00:55:28.160 There isn't another answer.

00:55:29.440 There's no board.

00:55:30.320 There's no higher authority.

00:55:31.740 There's nothing else.

00:55:33.200 You know, and I show

00:55:33.840 I do show clips from Hitler 0.97

00:55:35.580 in my class

00:55:36.320 in my personality class

00:55:37.280 when we talk about

00:55:38.060 orderliness and totalitarianism.

00:55:39.440 I show clips from

00:55:40.440 the triumph of the will

00:55:42.220 and I show this other documentary

00:55:44.080 called Crumb

00:55:45.040 which is about

00:55:46.440 an underground cartoonist

00:55:49.420 from the 1960s

00:55:50.400 named Robert Crumb

00:55:51.160 and it is an absolutely

00:55:52.420 shocking documentary.

00:55:54.160 Like if you ever

00:55:54.820 want to know more

00:55:56.040 than you want to know

00:55:56.800 about rapists

00:55:57.680 and serial killers

00:55:58.640 that documentary will tell you.

00:56:00.260 It's really

00:56:00.800 it's a tough

00:56:03.320 it's a tough watch.

00:56:05.500 You know, and

00:56:05.840 I can't

00:56:07.120 I can't imagine

00:56:08.920 like a committee

00:56:11.760 reviewing my

00:56:13.080 teaching materials

00:56:14.340 and allowing

00:56:16.000 those things

00:56:16.900 to go forward

00:56:17.760 without challenge.

00:56:18.900 It'd be a disaster.

00:56:20.840 Okay.

00:56:21.260 The ensuing discussion

00:56:22.420 also needs to be handled

00:56:23.760 properly.

00:56:25.920 Yeah.

00:56:26.640 Well

00:56:26.980 we have no reason

00:56:29.240 we have no reason

00:56:29.260 to believe this discussion

00:56:30.260 was not handled well

00:56:31.500 in the tutorial in question.

00:56:32.860 Okay.

00:56:33.180 So whatever handled

00:56:33.980 properly means

00:56:34.900 Lindsay Shepard managed it. 0.96

00:56:36.660 Which I think

00:56:37.260 is a good sign here

00:56:38.040 because if we take

00:56:38.860 that as the model

00:56:39.620 Lindsay did present

00:56:41.520 the information neutrally

00:56:42.900 and she was not

00:56:44.440 taking sides

00:56:45.120 and if that's our model

00:56:46.160 that's a good sign.

00:56:47.180 Okay.

00:56:47.480 That's good.

00:56:47.940 So that's acceptable.

00:56:49.320 So I'm a bit troubled

00:56:50.880 by this

00:56:51.400 because we're going to

00:56:52.220 in three or four paragraphs

00:56:53.580 find out that we need

00:56:54.560 enhanced training

00:56:55.500 for TAs.

00:56:56.880 Right.

00:56:57.400 So did she handle it properly?

00:56:59.300 Right.

00:56:59.700 Why do we need

00:57:00.360 the training?

00:57:01.360 Yes.

00:57:02.060 And again

00:57:02.880 who's going to do

00:57:03.520 the training?

00:57:04.240 Because it's not going

00:57:04.900 to be the faculty

00:57:05.640 because the faculty

00:57:06.900 don't have time

00:57:07.640 or the inclination

00:57:08.640 for that matter

00:57:09.280 to run that kind of training.

00:57:10.820 Is it going to be

00:57:11.240 the diversity and equity?

00:57:12.300 Yeah.

00:57:12.540 Right.

00:57:12.840 Well that's the question.

00:57:13.840 Who's going to do the training?

00:57:15.420 I have apologized

00:57:16.080 to Ms. Shepard publicly

00:57:17.400 as has Dr. Rambucana

00:57:19.160 her supervising professor.

00:57:21.340 The university

00:57:22.220 has conveyed to her today

00:57:23.360 that the results

00:57:24.040 of the fact-finding report

00:57:25.320 to make

00:57:26.000 the results

00:57:26.900 of the fact-finding report

00:57:28.000 to make sure

00:57:28.660 she understands

00:57:29.420 it is clear

00:57:30.360 that she was involved

00:57:31.700 in no wrongdoing.

00:57:33.160 Yes.

00:57:33.460 Well for someone

00:57:34.340 who was involved

00:57:35.080 in no wrongdoing

00:57:36.100 she sure bloody well 0.93

00:57:37.060 got raked over the coals

00:57:38.280 for the last month.

00:57:39.800 So the university

00:57:41.100 is taking concrete steps

00:57:42.400 to make changes

00:57:43.160 to ensure this

00:57:43.840 doesn't happen again.

00:57:45.280 Yeah.

00:57:45.780 Well good.

00:57:47.100 It has been made clear

00:57:48.220 to those who were involved

00:57:49.280 in the meeting

00:57:49.760 with Ms. Shepard

00:57:50.580 that their conduct

00:57:51.300 does not meet

00:57:51.940 the high standards

00:57:52.700 I set for staff

00:57:53.740 and faculty.

00:57:54.560 Well that is a big question

00:57:55.600 there right?

00:57:57.320 How has it been made clear

00:57:58.980 to those who were involved

00:58:00.120 in the meeting

00:58:00.640 with Ms. Shepard

00:58:01.460 that their conduct

00:58:02.220 does not meet

00:58:02.940 those high standards?

00:58:04.200 Because we don't know.

00:58:05.460 Does that mean

00:58:05.920 did the president

00:58:06.800 talk to them?

00:58:07.500 Is there been

00:58:07.840 disciplinary action?

00:58:08.900 like we

00:58:10.120 because if it was

00:58:11.400 I don't even know

00:58:12.580 what would be appropriate

00:58:13.500 but I would say

00:58:15.460 that not

00:58:16.260 knowing

00:58:17.760 what was done

00:58:18.960 is not appropriate.

00:58:20.980 So

00:58:21.140 and I think

00:58:23.120 it deserves specifics.

00:58:24.560 I mean that's

00:58:24.880 what got me

00:58:25.380 into this

00:58:25.900 was you

00:58:26.320 the

00:58:26.820 Christy Blackford's

00:58:28.320 article

00:58:28.620 was very accurate

00:58:30.460 because she already

00:58:31.220 had the audio

00:58:31.840 but then when we

00:58:32.540 heard the audio

00:58:33.220 it was so appalling

00:58:34.760 what was done

00:58:35.620 to her

00:58:35.960 in that room.

00:58:36.500 it was such

00:58:37.220 horrible bullying

00:58:38.680 and just such

00:58:40.420 a violation

00:58:40.920 of what the

00:58:41.300 university

00:58:41.760 should stand for

00:58:43.340 that's what

00:58:44.580 coalesced

00:58:45.440 all of the anger.

00:58:46.480 I mean

00:58:46.680 in Canada

00:58:47.380 Yeah the devil's

00:58:48.080 in the details.

00:58:50.020 So it's the same

00:58:50.960 with the

00:58:51.420 how it has been

00:58:53.440 made clear

00:58:54.040 to those who

00:58:54.580 were involved.

00:58:56.080 So because I don't

00:58:56.980 I mean

00:58:58.520 maybe this is something

00:58:59.480 we could talk about too

00:59:00.360 I don't know

00:59:00.920 what would constitute

00:59:01.980 appropriate disciplinary

00:59:03.520 measures

00:59:03.940 as a consequence

00:59:05.780 I mean

00:59:06.080 you have here

00:59:07.360 three people

00:59:08.340 acting on

00:59:09.560 a non-existent

00:59:10.440 complaint

00:59:10.900 who produced

00:59:11.900 an international

00:59:12.860 scandal

00:59:13.640 that damaged

00:59:15.040 Lindsay

00:59:15.900 in a real sense

00:59:17.320 although it might have

00:59:18.020 also made her stronger 0.96

00:59:18.940 but it certainly

00:59:20.020 it certainly

00:59:21.080 didn't have to

00:59:21.940 because a lesser

00:59:22.640 person would have

00:59:23.340 crumbled

00:59:23.680 I don't know

00:59:24.140 if she would feel

00:59:24.700 that she

00:59:25.040 I think she might

00:59:26.040 take exception to that

00:59:26.980 she certainly

00:59:28.360 has not claimed

00:59:29.420 any kind of

00:59:30.160 victim status

00:59:30.860 throughout this whole thing

00:59:31.760 and I think that's

00:59:32.900 no but that's more

00:59:33.720 a testament to her

00:59:34.620 character than

00:59:35.380 anything else

00:59:36.240 because I mean

00:59:37.140 she was subject

00:59:37.860 to the kind of

00:59:38.640 attacks I would say

00:59:39.600 that would have

00:59:40.040 snowed under

00:59:40.720 a lesser person

00:59:41.820 yes but

00:59:42.760 she has

00:59:44.140 risen to this

00:59:45.220 challenge

00:59:45.540 yes definitely

00:59:46.400 definitely

00:59:47.160 well and

00:59:47.840 thank God for that

00:59:48.800 but then there has

00:59:49.860 been real harm done

00:59:50.720 to the university

00:59:51.460 as far as

00:59:52.200 so and I

00:59:53.780 don't know how

00:59:54.420 you would quantify

00:59:55.140 that in financial

00:59:56.080 terms but I

00:59:56.820 suspect it's

00:59:57.500 substantial

00:59:58.060 but reputational

00:59:59.100 terms

00:59:59.500 I mean now I

01:00:00.660 would say

01:00:01.060 internationally

01:00:01.720 this is what

01:00:02.560 Wilfrid Lurie

01:00:03.180 is known for

01:00:03.960 so maybe that's

01:00:05.100 an overstatement

01:00:05.700 but I don't

01:00:06.180 think so

01:00:06.700 as these are

01:00:08.280 individual employment

01:00:09.180 issues I cannot

01:00:09.900 go into greater

01:00:10.580 detail on any

01:00:11.400 individual case

01:00:12.240 well that could be

01:00:13.320 but know that the

01:00:14.280 university has

01:00:15.240 and is taking

01:00:16.120 action to rectify

01:00:17.060 the situation

01:00:17.660 and send a clear

01:00:18.500 signal that this

01:00:19.340 cannot and will

01:00:20.080 not happen again

01:00:20.860 that sounds

01:00:21.880 pretty forthright

01:00:23.380 yeah it is

01:00:24.060 one key improvement

01:00:26.240 highlighted is the

01:00:27.120 need to enhance

01:00:27.840 our faculty and

01:00:28.720 TA training

01:00:29.460 yeah well like I

01:00:33.460 said as a faculty

01:00:34.260 member whenever I

01:00:35.040 see that I don't

01:00:36.000 see the role of

01:00:36.840 the administrators

01:00:37.540 at a university

01:00:38.300 to to train the

01:00:39.780 faculty that's not

01:00:41.060 their role their

01:00:42.280 role is to move

01:00:43.420 paper around for the

01:00:44.560 faculty fundamentally

01:00:45.680 it is the

01:00:47.000 responsibility of

01:00:47.820 course instructors

01:00:48.480 to develop guidelines

01:00:49.460 for the roles and

01:00:50.280 expectations of their

01:00:51.200 TAs fair enough 1.00

01:00:52.700 the university also

01:00:53.740 has high expectations

01:00:55.120 of professors as

01:00:56.200 TA supervisors we

01:00:57.920 recognize the need

01:00:58.820 to do more in

01:00:59.480 this area

01:01:00.020 the university's

01:01:03.380 intent is to

01:01:04.000 enhance the

01:01:04.600 training and

01:01:05.040 support for both

01:01:05.780 TA supervisors and

01:01:06.940 teaching assistants

01:01:07.780 making these

01:01:08.580 mandatory and

01:01:09.520 standardized

01:01:10.200 that's my

01:01:11.880 favorite part

01:01:12.500 jesus dismal

01:01:13.680 so that so my

01:01:15.300 suspicions as a

01:01:17.080 skeptic are that

01:01:17.980 the making of

01:01:20.940 training for faculty

01:01:22.760 mandatory and

01:01:24.820 standardized will do

01:01:25.900 more harm than

01:01:28.340 this scandal has

01:01:29.920 done over the long

01:01:31.480 run so we don't know

01:01:32.540 what the training is

01:01:33.500 we don't know who's

01:01:34.420 going to do it we

01:01:35.120 don't know what it's

01:01:35.660 going to be about but

01:01:36.580 the one thing we do

01:01:37.220 know is it will be

01:01:38.080 mandatory yeah

01:01:39.200 mandatory and

01:01:40.420 standardized right

01:01:41.860 yeah mandatory and

01:01:43.600 standardized be

01:01:44.580 interesting to see how

01:01:45.420 they'll do that too

01:01:46.200 because it isn't so

01:01:47.000 easy to make training

01:01:47.940 mandatory for faculty

01:01:49.080 members right you

01:01:50.060 can't just do that by

01:01:51.060 fiat because they can

01:01:52.220 generally tell you to 0.99

01:01:53.000 go to hell and 1.00

01:01:53.860 should gendered and 1.00

01:01:56.280 sexual violence policy

01:01:57.660 it has become clear to

01:02:00.080 us that managing the

01:02:01.540 new gendered and

01:02:02.300 sexual violence policy

01:02:03.660 now that's the one

01:02:05.180 that's mandated by the

01:02:06.460 provincial government

01:02:07.640 so it was bill 163

01:02:10.220 provincial bill that

01:02:11.440 said you need to have

01:02:12.480 a policy on gendered

01:02:14.280 and sexual violence

01:02:15.100 according to our

01:02:17.000 colleague Dr. Andrew

01:02:18.620 Robinson he says we go

01:02:19.900 way beyond what the

01:02:20.880 province even asked for

01:02:22.280 to the point where it

01:02:24.040 becomes unmanageable and

01:02:26.340 and you have instances of

01:02:28.040 thought crime so so

01:02:29.280 that's what we have

01:02:29.940 like this like this

01:02:31.760 yeah where you can

01:02:32.960 claim that somebody is

01:02:33.900 transphobic for simply

01:02:36.820 showing a video

01:02:37.840 can I can I read you

01:02:39.120 the definition

01:02:40.220 is this from the

01:02:41.780 gendered and

01:02:42.420 yes it is

01:02:43.140 this is from our

01:02:43.760 policy

01:02:44.140 this is from our

01:02:44.740 policy

01:02:45.140 okay

01:02:45.600 it is an action

01:02:46.940 that reinforces

01:02:48.300 gender inequalities

01:02:49.420 resulting in physical

01:02:51.220 sexual emotional

01:02:52.500 economic or mental

01:02:53.840 harm

01:02:54.240 okay so what's the

01:02:55.860 first part of that

01:02:56.500 again

01:02:56.800 yes

01:02:57.600 yeah you get lost

01:02:58.760 don't you

01:02:59.100 okay it is an

01:03:00.300 action that reinforces

01:03:01.880 gender inequality

01:03:03.060 okay so let's start

01:03:04.180 with that

01:03:04.640 an action

01:03:05.900 that reinforces

01:03:07.780 gender inequalities

01:03:09.060 okay so the first

01:03:10.380 thing we might point

01:03:11.240 out is that no one

01:03:12.440 knows what the hell

01:03:13.160 that means

01:03:13.780 right

01:03:14.360 it's a box that

01:03:15.380 you can put anything

01:03:16.100 in so

01:03:16.500 actions

01:03:17.440 that's a problem

01:03:18.900 because what

01:03:20.080 it isn't obvious

01:03:20.840 what constitutes an

01:03:21.780 action

01:03:22.120 or an inaction

01:03:23.040 for that matter

01:03:23.800 so I mean

01:03:24.760 and then

01:03:25.920 that reinforces

01:03:27.280 gender inequalities

01:03:28.940 right so that

01:03:30.760 that's

01:03:31.200 that's the sort

01:03:32.260 of sentence

01:03:32.700 that only someone

01:03:33.520 who's ideologically

01:03:34.400 possessed to the 0.74

01:03:35.320 maximum would create

01:03:36.360 because you can't

01:03:37.320 parse it

01:03:37.860 gender inequalities

01:03:39.400 like what does

01:03:40.380 that mean exactly

01:03:41.180 I don't

01:03:43.320 well anyways

01:03:44.060 discrimination

01:03:44.880 on sex

01:03:46.020 or gender

01:03:46.460 it doesn't talk

01:03:47.180 about discrimination

01:03:47.900 it talks about

01:03:48.640 inequality

01:03:49.200 right which is

01:03:50.640 which is

01:03:51.140 it would be

01:03:51.700 different if

01:03:52.200 the phrasing

01:03:53.300 had included

01:03:53.940 the words

01:03:54.380 discrimination

01:03:54.960 okay and the

01:03:56.440 next part is

01:03:57.200 resulting in

01:03:58.380 physical

01:03:58.880 sexual

01:03:59.480 emotional

01:04:00.100 economic

01:04:00.760 or mental

01:04:01.340 harm

01:04:01.740 right right

01:04:02.800 so it's as

01:04:03.320 broadly construed

01:04:04.280 both

01:04:05.040 both clauses

01:04:06.080 are as broadly

01:04:07.120 construed as

01:04:07.880 they can be

01:04:08.560 and the reason

01:04:09.900 for that

01:04:10.340 is to allow

01:04:11.020 maximum scope

01:04:12.200 for interpretation

01:04:13.120 which is exactly

01:04:13.960 what happened

01:04:14.460 with Adria Jewell

01:04:15.280 well mental harm 0.89

01:04:16.420 again mental harm

01:04:17.460 and and as

01:04:18.520 you pointed out

01:04:19.360 mental harm

01:04:21.020 is not backed up

01:04:22.660 by the empirical

01:04:23.280 evidence

01:04:23.760 apart from

01:04:24.440 post-traumatic

01:04:26.140 stress syndrome

01:04:26.800 like cognitive

01:04:28.100 behavioral therapy

01:04:29.400 would suggest

01:04:30.040 that you actually

01:04:30.900 can do mental

01:04:31.520 good by exposing

01:04:33.180 someone to

01:04:33.760 objectionable ideas

01:04:34.580 when they've

01:04:35.000 in moderation

01:04:35.960 in order to

01:04:37.140 help them become

01:04:37.960 less mentally

01:04:38.880 fragile

01:04:39.340 Scott Lillefeld

01:04:41.300 out of Emory

01:04:41.960 University

01:04:42.560 a very credible

01:04:43.800 scholar

01:04:44.400 well he is

01:04:45.700 one of the

01:04:46.420 he's written

01:04:47.800 several textbooks

01:04:48.560 on psychopathology

01:04:49.760 right he knows

01:04:50.360 his stuff

01:04:50.740 and just this

01:04:52.200 year he put

01:04:52.780 out a paper

01:04:53.740 where he explored

01:04:54.680 the the

01:04:55.800 empirical evidence

01:04:56.840 around microaggressions

01:04:58.520 and he did

01:04:59.600 all of the

01:05:00.260 literature

01:05:00.620 and microaggressions

01:05:01.980 are of course

01:05:02.660 these innocuous

01:05:04.420 actions

01:05:04.980 that are deemed

01:05:06.160 to be

01:05:06.740 bigoted

01:05:07.700 or or somehow

01:05:09.080 sexist

01:05:09.820 it's 0.62

01:05:10.780 well they are

01:05:12.960 actually

01:05:13.340 it's showing

01:05:14.020 a video

01:05:14.580 of from TVO

01:05:16.320 is what a

01:05:16.840 microaggression

01:05:17.480 is

01:05:17.900 and what he

01:05:19.200 said was

01:05:19.840 there is absolutely

01:05:20.860 no evidence

01:05:22.080 there's no evidence

01:05:23.600 that microaggressions

01:05:25.340 these objectionable

01:05:26.340 ideas

01:05:26.820 lead to mental harm

01:05:28.600 he also said

01:05:29.740 that the

01:05:30.080 the concept itself

01:05:31.100 is extraordinarily

01:05:31.740 ill-defined

01:05:32.560 which is also

01:05:33.560 a big problem

01:05:34.200 which we can see

01:05:34.420 right

01:05:34.740 that was the beginning

01:05:35.880 of our conversation

01:05:36.560 everything is ill-defined

01:05:38.020 yeah

01:05:38.240 well that

01:05:38.840 if you make the box

01:05:39.700 big enough

01:05:40.140 you can put anything

01:05:40.900 into it

01:05:41.480 and what you see

01:05:43.180 in this gendered

01:05:44.880 and violence policy

01:05:45.620 that Will is reading

01:05:47.140 from

01:05:47.480 they are

01:05:48.380 they actually go on

01:05:49.260 to say

01:05:49.600 that

01:05:49.920 this can include

01:05:51.640 heterosexism

01:05:53.540 like you can be 0.99

01:05:54.600 your mental crime

01:05:56.500 could be heterosexism 0.98

01:05:57.560 yeah

01:05:57.920 so what if I said

01:05:58.720 something in class

01:05:59.500 like

01:05:59.760 the empirical evidence

01:06:01.100 strongly suggests

01:06:02.100 that raising children

01:06:03.000 in a two-parent family

01:06:04.260 leads to better outcomes

01:06:05.620 which it does

01:06:06.560 by the way

01:06:07.060 like it

01:06:07.500 and seriously

01:06:08.500 it does

01:06:09.140 so

01:06:09.820 then

01:06:10.440 well

01:06:10.980 so that's the question

01:06:11.740 you've transgressed 0.86

01:06:12.560 well arguably

01:06:13.840 right

01:06:14.220 arguably

01:06:14.700 I've transgressed

01:06:15.480 that policy

01:06:15.840 now here's an

01:06:16.380 interesting thing too

01:06:17.320 so

01:06:17.920 it has become

01:06:19.560 clear to us

01:06:20.280 that managing

01:06:20.980 the new gendered 0.99

01:06:21.800 and sexual violence

01:06:22.640 policy has led

01:06:23.420 to a confusion

01:06:24.300 in its application

01:06:25.320 right

01:06:25.660 okay

01:06:25.880 so this is back

01:06:26.540 to the issue

01:06:26.940 we described earlier

01:06:27.800 is it a confusion

01:06:29.000 in the application

01:06:29.960 or in the policy

01:06:30.720 now you just read 0.99

01:06:31.640 the damn policy 1.00

01:06:32.600 now it seems to me 1.00

01:06:34.100 that there's no way

01:06:35.080 you could apply

01:06:35.740 that policy

01:06:36.420 without confusion

01:06:37.220 so it's not a confusion

01:06:38.760 in its application

01:06:39.680 it might also be that

01:06:41.400 but it's a confusion

01:06:42.200 in the policy

01:06:43.160 written right into it

01:06:44.400 okay

01:06:44.800 so that's

01:06:45.300 that's of crucial importance

01:06:46.640 passed by the Board of Governors

01:06:47.720 right

01:06:48.100 in fact

01:06:49.320 the interviews

01:06:49.920 conducted by the Fact Finder

01:06:51.240 confirmed that

01:06:51.940 the rationale

01:06:52.560 for invoking the GSVP

01:06:54.340 did not exist

01:06:55.280 it was misapplied

01:06:56.500 and was a significant

01:06:57.480 overreach

01:06:58.180 yeah

01:06:58.960 I'm not so sure

01:07:00.420 about that

01:07:01.020 because I know

01:07:01.860 that these kind of

01:07:02.540 policies emerge

01:07:03.340 from the same

01:07:03.920 sort of policy

01:07:04.700 framework

01:07:05.240 that characterizes

01:07:07.160 the Ontario Human Rights

01:07:08.220 Commission

01:07:08.500 it's the same

01:07:09.140 people doing it

01:07:09.980 and the Ontario

01:07:11.320 Human Rights Commission

01:07:12.340 policies are written

01:07:13.360 so that they can be

01:07:14.760 broadly misapplied

01:07:17.040 with no significant

01:07:18.480 overreach

01:07:19.160 so

01:07:19.980 so

01:07:20.960 okay

01:07:21.480 so that's a problem

01:07:22.500 to provide clarity

01:07:24.400 of the policy's intent

01:07:25.820 and to strengthen

01:07:27.280 accountability

01:07:27.800 we will engage

01:07:28.860 in an administrative

01:07:29.700 review

01:07:30.420 with the goal

01:07:31.360 of finding the

01:07:32.020 appropriate structure

01:07:33.120 to oversee

01:07:33.740 and execute

01:07:34.440 the GSVP 0.97

01:07:35.360 and its accompanying

01:07:36.140 procedures

01:07:36.640 we will also

01:07:37.740 undertake a full

01:07:38.640 review of the policy

01:07:39.840 and its procedures

01:07:40.680 okay

01:07:41.060 so good

01:07:41.660 so there

01:07:42.280 they're saying

01:07:42.800 well it might have

01:07:43.820 been misapplied

01:07:44.440 but maybe the policy

01:07:45.280 itself also has

01:07:46.180 some problems

01:07:46.600 I think this is

01:07:47.220 really good news

01:07:47.920 and we had

01:07:49.220 a meeting with

01:07:50.300 our colleague

01:07:51.020 Andrew

01:07:51.720 Andrew Robinson

01:07:52.420 today

01:07:52.760 and we said

01:07:53.120 well you know

01:07:53.360 what do you think

01:07:53.820 about this

01:07:54.280 and he was pleased

01:07:55.460 he said

01:07:56.080 you know

01:07:56.480 if some good

01:07:57.960 has come out

01:07:58.560 of this

01:07:59.040 controversy

01:07:59.820 this is one

01:08:01.140 of those

01:08:01.800 good things

01:08:02.900 because

01:08:03.560 definitely

01:08:04.660 the gendered

01:08:05.740 and sexual

01:08:06.080 violence policy

01:08:06.800 we have at

01:08:07.240 Laurier

01:08:07.500 isn't workable

01:08:08.980 it is prejudiced

01:08:10.360 against certain

01:08:11.000 people

01:08:11.340 and certain

01:08:12.180 ideas

01:08:12.660 and so

01:08:13.460 it needs

01:08:13.920 to be reworked

01:08:14.760 because

01:08:15.040 it is not

01:08:16.440 an inclusive document

01:08:17.340 it excludes

01:08:18.420 and so

01:08:19.100 it needs

01:08:19.440 to be fixed

01:08:19.900 so this is a good thing

01:08:20.760 well and it's also

01:08:22.500 a canary in the coal mine

01:08:23.980 for similar policies

01:08:25.000 at universities

01:08:25.640 all across Canada

01:08:26.760 would say

01:08:27.540 and maybe broader

01:08:28.280 because one

01:08:28.820 thing you'd hope

01:08:30.180 is that

01:08:30.620 the Lindsay Shepard affair

01:08:32.280 has produced

01:08:33.260 enough

01:08:33.800 negative repercussions

01:08:35.500 to set people back

01:08:36.680 on their heels

01:08:37.200 a little bit

01:08:37.700 and make them

01:08:38.280 dig into

01:08:38.800 these policies

01:08:39.500 because I can't

01:08:40.520 imagine that

01:08:41.100 there's another

01:08:41.520 university in Canada

01:08:42.560 who would enjoy

01:08:43.540 partaking in

01:08:44.460 a scandal

01:08:45.020 of equivalent

01:08:45.620 magnitude

01:08:46.220 what I would hope

01:08:48.040 and on

01:08:48.620 that point

01:08:49.580 Jordan

01:08:50.080 if someone

01:08:52.160 is a student

01:08:52.840 or if someone

01:08:53.740 is a faculty member

01:08:54.800 ask for the evidence

01:08:56.640 that's what I've learned

01:08:58.380 from this

01:08:58.900 there are a lot

01:08:59.780 of claims out there

01:09:00.700 mental harm

01:09:01.860 our campuses

01:09:02.700 become unsafe

01:09:03.500 the ideas

01:09:05.300 that are contained

01:09:05.980 in the

01:09:06.500 the gendered

01:09:07.920 and sexual violence

01:09:08.560 policy

01:09:08.900 I'm saying

01:09:09.420 okay

01:09:09.780 what is the evidence

01:09:12.340 that proves this

01:09:13.840 because this is

01:09:15.240 what a university

01:09:16.240 is supposed to be

01:09:16.900 based on

01:09:17.360 from the enlightenment

01:09:18.400 to today

01:09:18.940 we are supposed

01:09:20.060 to be able to say

01:09:20.840 here's the evidence

01:09:22.100 for why we do this

01:09:23.840 and the further

01:09:25.140 we get away from

01:09:25.960 evidence

01:09:26.640 and the more

01:09:27.620 we embrace ideology

01:09:28.800 we completely

01:09:30.040 remove what the mission

01:09:31.200 of a university

01:09:31.800 is supposed to be

01:09:32.440 well and the idea

01:09:33.160 of evidence

01:09:33.720 we remove the idea

01:09:34.740 of evidence

01:09:35.180 which means we remove

01:09:36.520 the idea of knowledge

01:09:37.900 because there's no

01:09:38.760 distinction between

01:09:39.620 knowledge and evidence

01:09:40.560 right right

01:09:41.360 so so if you are a student

01:09:43.960 and you want to say

01:09:45.020 what what can I do

01:09:45.800 say what's the evidence

01:09:47.260 of mental harm

01:09:47.960 what's the evidence

01:09:48.960 that that this

01:09:50.220 that I'm transphobic

01:09:51.580 what's right

01:09:52.140 well well so partly

01:09:53.340 what you're also saying

01:09:54.420 there is a restatement

01:09:55.480 of the old presumption

01:09:56.660 of innocence idea

01:09:57.740 it's like okay

01:09:59.000 you're accusing me

01:09:59.900 of something

01:10:00.420 prove it

01:10:01.240 I'm innocent

01:10:02.180 buddy

01:10:02.640 prove it

01:10:03.660 where's your evidence

01:10:04.640 yeah I know we do

01:10:05.840 I know

01:10:06.320 well part of that's

01:10:07.600 tied up with this

01:10:08.480 with the sexual harassment

01:10:09.900 issue because

01:10:10.680 increasingly

01:10:11.660 and this is

01:10:12.200 this is

01:10:12.560 this has started

01:10:13.740 I think most

01:10:14.600 particularly in the

01:10:15.340 United States

01:10:15.900 we're moving towards

01:10:16.820 a preponderance

01:10:17.660 of evidence

01:10:18.280 standard

01:10:18.980 instead of a

01:10:19.760 assumption of

01:10:20.420 innocence standard

01:10:21.240 that's especially

01:10:22.000 true with these

01:10:22.600 sexual harassment

01:10:23.280 policies that are

01:10:24.040 being derived

01:10:25.160 by

01:10:25.480 derived

01:10:27.100 from

01:10:28.460 institutions

01:10:30.020 and administrators

01:10:30.880 concerned with

01:10:31.620 such things

01:10:32.120 as the gendered

01:10:32.980 and sexual

01:10:33.480 violence policy

01:10:34.620 and that's related

01:10:35.820 to the comment

01:10:36.920 you made earlier

01:10:37.600 about the lawyer

01:10:38.300 who wasn't

01:10:38.820 allowed to speak

01:10:40.180 right because

01:10:40.720 she had the

01:10:41.440 temerity to offer

01:10:42.520 someone who was

01:10:43.480 accused of a crime

01:10:44.380 a legal defense

01:10:45.480 when apparently

01:10:47.440 what we were supposed

01:10:48.240 to do was just

01:10:48.940 assume that the people

01:10:50.240 who were making

01:10:50.800 the accusations

01:10:51.480 were right because

01:10:52.420 they claimed that

01:10:53.160 they were wronged

01:10:54.440 so

01:10:54.680 and to be

01:10:56.360 I mean we always

01:10:57.260 have to do our

01:10:57.760 caveats don't we

01:10:58.500 we say

01:10:59.260 I know

01:11:00.820 that we want

01:11:02.040 to protect people

01:11:03.020 who are victims

01:11:04.260 like

01:11:04.660 each of us

01:11:05.940 would agree

01:11:06.440 but it can't

01:11:07.600 be done

01:11:07.860 by sacrificing

01:11:09.400 truth

01:11:09.860 well you don't

01:11:10.460 protect people

01:11:11.240 from being victimized

01:11:12.360 by undermining

01:11:13.100 the rule of law

01:11:14.040 quite the contrary

01:11:15.220 because ultimately

01:11:17.020 it comes back

01:11:17.920 to bite you 0.72

01:11:18.420 in the behind 0.98

01:11:18.860 yes that's for sure

01:11:19.980 and very very rapidly

01:11:21.080 so okay

01:11:22.320 in the interim

01:11:23.060 we will ensure

01:11:23.840 access to the

01:11:24.880 existing support

01:11:25.740 and complaints

01:11:26.300 procedures

01:11:26.760 by providing

01:11:27.380 management

01:11:27.860 and oversight

01:11:28.420 through the

01:11:28.860 office of dispute

01:11:30.200 resolution and support

01:11:31.440 okay I'm not sure

01:11:33.220 what that means

01:11:33.940 well it's actually

01:11:34.660 very good news

01:11:35.480 okay okay

01:11:36.160 it means that

01:11:36.860 the oversight

01:11:38.800 of this

01:11:39.580 is being removed

01:11:40.700 from the diversity

01:11:41.340 and equity office

01:11:42.300 and put under

01:11:43.660 the president's

01:11:44.400 direct control

01:11:45.200 so she doesn't

01:11:46.560 think that

01:11:47.180 they're responsible

01:11:48.500 and I'm very worried

01:11:51.560 about diversity

01:11:52.240 and equity office

01:11:53.160 overreach

01:11:53.820 this suggests

01:11:54.520 that the president

01:11:55.160 as you should be

01:11:56.140 it suggests the president

01:11:57.080 is also worried

01:11:58.020 about the diversity

01:11:58.820 and equity office

01:11:59.700 that she has said

01:12:01.380 we're not

01:12:01.680 I can't imagine why

01:12:02.500 but the fact

01:12:04.200 that she has done

01:12:04.980 this is really

01:12:06.140 a strong sign

01:12:07.800 that she is aware

01:12:08.960 that that office

01:12:10.480 needs to be

01:12:11.700 it needs to be

01:12:12.380 reined in

01:12:12.700 right or at least

01:12:13.480 that she's concerned

01:12:14.260 enough about the

01:12:14.960 reputation of the

01:12:15.700 university so that

01:12:16.460 she's not going to

01:12:17.140 let the same mistake

01:12:17.980 happen again

01:12:18.620 which is a good thing

01:12:19.640 like I don't care

01:12:20.200 why she's doing it 0.99

01:12:21.120 particularly

01:12:21.540 but it's a good thing

01:12:23.140 that it is being done

01:12:23.920 okay so fine

01:12:24.740 so that's good news

01:12:26.380 this has the added

01:12:28.180 benefit of improved

01:12:29.300 accountability

01:12:29.860 as that office

01:12:30.840 reports through

01:12:31.520 to me as president

01:12:32.600 yeah okay

01:12:33.580 well you can see

01:12:34.520 in those lines

01:12:35.100 that she's not

01:12:35.840 particularly happy

01:12:37.020 about what's happened

01:12:37.760 I wonder what sort

01:12:38.740 of financial hit

01:12:39.520 Wilfrid Laurier took

01:12:40.540 because you can imagine

01:12:42.840 that while the donors

01:12:44.100 are going to be

01:12:44.520 a lot more conservative

01:12:45.280 than the professors

01:12:46.760 and the administrators

01:12:47.600 and the students

01:12:48.540 well we have

01:12:49.880 we've been contacted

01:12:51.480 by a group of alumni

01:12:52.700 who have now organized

01:12:53.920 they haven't yet

01:12:55.000 released what would be

01:12:56.600 their press release

01:12:57.740 but slowly they've been

01:12:58.820 reaching out to other alumni

01:13:00.900 and it's the Laurier alumni

01:13:02.920 for free expression

01:13:03.720 and what they have said

01:13:05.260 is their mandate is

01:13:06.660 one to withhold

01:13:07.960 all donations

01:13:08.660 until Laurier accepts

01:13:11.460 the Laurier statement

01:13:12.380 for freedom of expression

01:13:13.400 and I haven't checked in

01:13:16.280 it was just someone

01:13:17.840 acting on her own

01:13:19.020 she's a Laurier alumni

01:13:20.620 she has I guess

01:13:23.420 contacts within

01:13:24.360 the alumni association

01:13:25.620 and she just 0.97

01:13:26.800 she sent us

01:13:28.020 some contact information

01:13:29.280 and said

01:13:29.620 here's what I'm doing

01:13:30.560 wanted you to know

01:13:31.420 I support your efforts

01:13:32.540 and I'm working on this

01:13:34.360 I'll let you know

01:13:35.020 when I'm ready to go

01:13:36.200 and so that was

01:13:36.720 really encouraging

01:13:37.300 I have a colleague

01:13:38.060 who does a survey

01:13:39.100 of chief financial officers

01:13:41.180 quarterly to gauge

01:13:42.340 their optimism

01:13:43.160 about the economy

01:13:44.020 and started down at Duke

01:13:45.260 and he's doing it

01:13:45.960 now for Canada

01:13:46.580 and he got responses

01:13:48.120 from two

01:13:48.800 because he sent out

01:13:50.840 an email just shortly

01:13:51.520 after this broke

01:13:52.180 he got responses

01:13:53.160 from two alumni

01:13:53.900 who just said

01:13:54.940 you know

01:13:55.740 why should I participate

01:13:56.660 in this

01:13:56.920 why should I help you

01:13:57.620 this is nuts

01:13:58.180 I don't have any respect 0.94

01:13:59.100 for you

01:13:59.340 these are alumni

01:14:00.160 of Wilfrid Laurier University

01:14:02.460 yes well

01:14:02.960 and I can imagine too

01:14:03.880 that enrollment

01:14:04.580 is going to take

01:14:05.340 a pretty vicious hit

01:14:06.280 you know

01:14:06.580 our business school

01:14:07.300 is quite excellent

01:14:08.200 we have a great

01:14:09.240 co-op program

01:14:09.900 we in the finance area

01:14:11.260 attract a lot

01:14:11.880 of very strong students

01:14:12.680 and we compete

01:14:13.520 for top tier students

01:14:14.920 in Ontario

01:14:15.800 the entry average

01:14:17.140 is like 89

01:14:17.940 or something

01:14:18.620 and we really compete

01:14:20.220 for what we call

01:14:20.860 the high flyers

01:14:21.800 and they can choose

01:14:22.760 any school

01:14:23.520 in the province

01:14:24.640 right

01:14:25.240 yeah well it doesn't

01:14:26.920 take much of a hit

01:14:27.680 to a reputation

01:14:28.440 to give people

01:14:29.340 who have options

01:14:30.080 the reason to go

01:14:30.880 elsewhere

01:14:31.300 right

01:14:31.880 and then you lose

01:14:32.500 the best people

01:14:33.360 and that's when things

01:14:34.520 really start to fall apart

01:14:35.720 and what you might

01:14:36.500 begin to see

01:14:37.140 and I would say

01:14:38.160 that this is something

01:14:39.080 that the general public

01:14:40.420 might look at

01:14:40.960 watch what happens

01:14:42.280 to the entrance averages

01:14:43.400 in the arts

01:14:44.420 and humanities

01:14:45.080 so we might not

01:14:47.560 take a hit

01:14:48.160 but let's see

01:14:49.840 if the averages

01:14:50.420 take a hit

01:14:51.100 because suddenly

01:14:52.820 and currently

01:14:54.180 the entrance average

01:14:55.320 to get into

01:14:56.460 our general arts program

01:14:57.580 in communications

01:14:58.900 let's just talk

01:14:59.420 communications

01:14:59.860 is mid 70s

01:15:01.200 with an average

01:15:02.240 of 60 in English

01:15:03.380 so I don't

01:15:07.060 I mean

01:15:07.560 right

01:15:08.120 which is basically

01:15:09.040 a failing grade

01:15:09.920 right

01:15:10.180 because if you hand

01:15:11.380 in an essay

01:15:12.220 in high school

01:15:13.320 you'll get 60

01:15:14.420 you really will

01:15:15.540 right

01:15:15.740 so it's basically

01:15:16.740 the grading basically

01:15:17.720 runs from 60

01:15:18.640 it goes zero

01:15:19.640 you didn't hand it in

01:15:21.060 60 to 100

01:15:22.260 you handed it in

01:15:23.440 and let's keep in mind

01:15:24.780 that the tutorial

01:15:26.160 that Lindsay was running

01:15:27.680 was a grammar tutorial

01:15:29.200 the content of which

01:15:30.760 looked a lot like

01:15:31.520 grade 6 curriculum

01:15:32.760 yeah

01:15:33.440 yeah

01:15:33.880 well that gets us

01:15:34.740 into a discussion

01:15:35.480 of the schools

01:15:36.180 in general

01:15:36.720 but

01:15:36.980 we're all right

01:15:37.780 I'm thinking that

01:15:39.040 maybe it's not a good

01:15:40.240 idea to lower

01:15:41.080 standards any anymore 1.00

01:15:42.620 right

01:15:43.140 right

01:15:43.940 right

01:15:44.320 okay

01:15:44.820 okay

01:15:45.300 so

01:15:45.760 academic freedom

01:15:47.060 and freedom of expression

01:15:48.160 for those who have

01:15:49.740 chosen to use this

01:15:50.860 incident as an

01:15:51.700 indictment of

01:15:52.480 Wilfrid Laurier University

01:15:53.720 or the plight of

01:15:54.820 Canadian universities

01:15:55.700 in general

01:15:56.380 I say your assertion

01:15:57.880 is unreasonable

01:15:58.660 and unfounded

01:15:59.640 well we better

01:16:00.160 stop this interview

01:16:00.880 yeah

01:16:01.220 yeah

01:16:01.560 well

01:16:01.860 you can say that

01:16:03.100 all you want

01:16:03.680 I would say instead

01:16:05.520 that what happened

01:16:06.480 at Wilfrid Laurier

01:16:07.280 is a precise

01:16:08.300 manifestation of

01:16:09.380 exactly the sort

01:16:10.280 of rot

01:16:10.800 that both produced

01:16:12.020 Bill C-16

01:16:12.820 and that I was

01:16:13.520 warning about 0.81

01:16:14.080 last September

01:16:14.800 and so

01:16:15.620 I don't think

01:16:16.380 the assertion

01:16:16.980 is unreasonable

01:16:17.560 and unfounded

01:16:18.520 at all

01:16:19.140 and here's one

01:16:19.880 piece of data

01:16:20.640 80% of humanities

01:16:22.960 papers are not

01:16:23.880 cited once

01:16:24.740 so

01:16:27.080 so let's just

01:16:29.540 translate that

01:16:30.140 for the viewing

01:16:30.560 public

01:16:30.940 yes

01:16:31.460 that means

01:16:32.160 that they're

01:16:32.880 producing scholarship

01:16:33.800 that nobody

01:16:34.380 looks at

01:16:34.940 yes

01:16:35.280 that even

01:16:36.340 their friends

01:16:36.960 don't look at

01:16:37.820 and because

01:16:38.680 okay so what a

01:16:39.360 citation is

01:16:40.020 is I read

01:16:40.560 someone's paper

01:16:41.180 and I find a good

01:16:41.880 idea in it

01:16:42.560 and then I use

01:16:43.440 that idea to

01:16:44.140 buttress an idea

01:16:44.860 of my own

01:16:45.380 or to riff off

01:16:47.180 or to

01:16:47.600 criticize even

01:16:50.140 for that matter

01:16:50.820 and then I cite

01:16:51.840 them

01:16:52.060 I say who they

01:16:52.780 were and when

01:16:53.220 they published it

01:16:53.820 and then the

01:16:54.220 paper

01:16:54.540 there's a huge

01:16:56.600 bureaucracy that

01:16:57.380 keeps track of

01:16:58.040 citations

01:16:58.480 and it's a major

01:16:59.220 indication of

01:17:00.100 academic ability

01:17:01.280 to be cited

01:17:02.040 right

01:17:02.400 it's like

01:17:04.060 it's academic

01:17:04.900 payment to be

01:17:05.880 cited

01:17:06.180 okay so

01:17:07.020 80% of

01:17:07.920 humanities papers

01:17:08.780 don't get

01:17:09.700 cited once

01:17:11.080 it's absolute

01:17:12.640 failure

01:17:13.120 absolute failure

01:17:14.120 as a game

01:17:14.820 if someone

01:17:15.200 wanted to

01:17:15.700 play a game

01:17:16.720 I would suggest

01:17:18.220 that they go

01:17:18.960 and they look

01:17:19.660 at the publications

01:17:21.020 of the professors

01:17:22.680 in a particular

01:17:23.280 area

01:17:23.720 and see if the

01:17:25.000 titles all

01:17:26.040 sound the same

01:17:26.820 and if they all

01:17:28.980 say something

01:17:29.580 about intersectionality

01:17:31.200 colonialism

01:17:33.460 and these other

01:17:35.720 various social

01:17:38.200 justice words

01:17:39.140 you might wonder

01:17:40.480 am I going to get

01:17:41.320 taught the same

01:17:42.020 course again and

01:17:43.140 again by every

01:17:43.940 professor in this

01:17:44.720 program because it

01:17:46.080 seems to me that

01:17:46.700 all of their research

01:17:47.500 is very similar

01:17:48.720 and how can that

01:17:51.960 be when there's

01:17:52.620 such a broad

01:17:53.360 base of knowledge

01:17:54.140 in the world

01:17:54.820 that we can have

01:17:56.220 such similarity

01:17:58.020 between every

01:17:58.920 publication

01:17:59.500 which then

01:18:00.300 goes on

01:18:01.080 why do I need

01:18:02.040 to read my

01:18:02.700 colleague stuff

01:18:03.400 when it's exactly

01:18:04.140 like my own

01:18:04.960 which we see

01:18:07.200 so just as a

01:18:08.460 baseline

01:18:08.820 Jordan

01:18:09.560 what would you say

01:18:11.580 what would you say

01:18:11.600 is someone

01:18:12.740 who's doing

01:18:13.200 some good research

01:18:14.060 how many citations

01:18:15.580 would they be

01:18:16.760 receiving maybe

01:18:17.420 collectively

01:18:18.700 like what are we

01:18:19.840 looking at

01:18:20.160 thousands

01:18:20.460 yeah well a good

01:18:21.960 like if you

01:18:22.760 write a good

01:18:24.920 paper

01:18:25.460 then like a great

01:18:28.500 paper will get you

01:18:29.660 a hundred citations

01:18:30.620 right an

01:18:31.240 outstanding

01:18:31.940 overwhelmingly

01:18:33.040 outstanding paper

01:18:34.100 will get you a

01:18:34.620 thousand citations

01:18:35.640 ten isn't none

01:18:38.640 you know it you

01:18:39.720 register with ten

01:18:40.920 but zero is

01:18:42.840 that's failure

01:18:43.840 right

01:18:44.440 it means your work

01:18:45.480 had zero impact

01:18:46.320 it it means your

01:18:47.520 work wasn't worth

01:18:48.380 the paper it was

01:18:49.240 published on

01:18:49.820 and this this brings

01:18:50.840 us to a kind of

01:18:52.000 interesting little issue

01:18:53.480 with regards to the

01:18:54.460 rot in the

01:18:55.060 universities which

01:18:55.820 which Deborah

01:18:56.520 McClatchy says

01:18:57.300 does not exist

01:18:58.100 it's like here's

01:18:58.700 how the game

01:18:59.160 works is that

01:18:59.920 we set up a

01:19:01.320 little ideological

01:19:02.140 garden right

01:19:03.780 the ten of us

01:19:04.360 play in and

01:19:05.540 then we all

01:19:06.080 publish in the

01:19:06.760 same journal

01:19:07.260 and we peer

01:19:07.840 review each

01:19:08.420 other's articles

01:19:09.120 and we just

01:19:09.940 publish them

01:19:10.840 there's no

01:19:11.380 critique or

01:19:12.400 very little

01:19:12.960 so the

01:19:13.700 barrier for

01:19:15.640 publication is

01:19:16.580 very very low

01:19:17.240 when it should be

01:19:17.820 very high

01:19:18.300 like a good

01:19:18.860 journal a good

01:19:19.920 journal will

01:19:20.480 reject 90% of

01:19:21.780 the papers that

01:19:22.720 are that are

01:19:23.460 submitted to

01:19:25.780 it right

01:19:26.440 so rejection

01:19:29.080 rates really

01:19:29.600 matter

01:19:29.900 so the

01:19:32.260 question is

01:19:32.880 why do the

01:19:33.760 these papers get

01:19:34.960 published since

01:19:35.780 no one reads

01:19:36.680 them and they

01:19:37.400 have nothing to

01:19:37.940 offer and the

01:19:38.500 answer to that

01:19:38.900 is very

01:19:39.260 straightforward

01:19:39.800 the journals

01:19:41.420 are extremely

01:19:42.020 expensive are

01:19:43.000 way more

01:19:43.600 expensive than

01:19:44.160 they should be

01:19:44.560 so just to

01:19:45.120 buy a single

01:19:46.100 paper online for

01:19:47.380 the ordinary

01:19:47.820 person is like

01:19:48.580 $40 which is

01:19:49.620 more than a

01:19:50.020 hardcover book

01:19:50.660 that's just to

01:19:51.240 download the

01:19:51.940 PDF and so

01:19:53.200 the journal

01:19:53.660 itself

01:19:54.260 the libraries

01:19:54.920 are full of

01:19:55.320 them are very

01:19:55.820 expensive and the

01:19:56.600 subscriptions are

01:19:57.260 very expensive

01:19:57.940 and so what

01:19:58.800 happens is the

01:19:59.540 professors pressure

01:20:00.820 the university

01:20:01.600 libraries to buy

01:20:02.540 the journals and

01:20:03.740 the library funds

01:20:05.180 the publisher and

01:20:06.540 so the publishers

01:20:07.340 will publish

01:20:07.880 anything

01:20:08.360 Routledge is a good

01:20:09.140 example of that

01:20:09.860 much to my

01:20:10.700 chagrin because

01:20:11.300 they published my

01:20:11.980 first book but

01:20:13.160 and they used to

01:20:13.780 be a great

01:20:14.120 publishing house

01:20:14.680 but they'll

01:20:15.000 publish damn near

01:20:15.640 anything and

01:20:16.120 the reason for

01:20:16.600 that is that the

01:20:17.520 libraries are

01:20:18.080 forced to pay

01:20:18.960 radically inflated

01:20:20.140 prices for the

01:20:21.860 publications that

01:20:23.180 no one ever

01:20:23.800 reads and so

01:20:24.780 people write to

01:20:26.580 publish in

01:20:27.240 journals that

01:20:27.820 libraries have to

01:20:29.100 purchase at

01:20:29.640 inflated prices to

01:20:31.480 produce knowledge

01:20:32.600 that no one will

01:20:33.660 ever read and

01:20:34.480 that's the little

01:20:35.120 scandal that plagues

01:20:37.020 the humanities I

01:20:37.940 think it

01:20:38.220 characterizes the

01:20:39.020 humanities more

01:20:39.640 than plagues them

01:20:40.260 so the idea that

01:20:41.240 there's no systemic

01:20:42.800 rot let's say in

01:20:44.000 the universities

01:20:44.520 especially in the

01:20:45.220 humanities is just

01:20:46.080 not the case

01:20:46.720 well this is just

01:20:47.080 far too general

01:20:47.900 there is rot and

01:20:50.620 it's not everywhere

01:20:51.520 and this just

01:20:53.100 reveals that I

01:20:53.800 don't think she's

01:20:54.620 that familiar with

01:20:55.620 the situation she's

01:20:56.820 in and I've been

01:20:58.000 listening to some of

01:20:59.140 your work and

01:20:59.820 Jonathan Haidt and

01:21:01.000 trying to understand

01:21:01.860 what's been going on

01:21:02.740 over the last two

01:21:03.540 years in universities

01:21:04.940 protected as I am in

01:21:07.140 a business school and

01:21:07.840 starting to realize

01:21:08.580 that it's not

01:21:09.160 everywhere it's

01:21:10.240 social justice

01:21:11.700 perspective

01:21:12.120 the STEM fields are

01:21:12.960 fine so far

01:21:13.780 right

01:21:14.140 yeah and the

01:21:14.820 business schools

01:21:15.500 although there

01:21:16.460 there are moves

01:21:17.320 into the business

01:21:18.020 schools but they're

01:21:18.680 still doing all

01:21:19.360 right

01:21:19.620 philosophy is not

01:21:20.780 doing too badly

01:21:21.520 like there are

01:21:22.260 disciplines that have

01:21:23.240 still remained

01:21:23.860 untouched and

01:21:25.160 mostly what's

01:21:26.180 happened so far is

01:21:27.040 that if the

01:21:27.680 discipline has a

01:21:28.480 strong economic or

01:21:30.140 scientific footing

01:21:31.280 it's proved much

01:21:32.260 harder to corrupt

01:21:33.160 and empirical

01:21:33.800 yeah that's right

01:21:34.980 for my part so I

01:21:36.560 play in the

01:21:37.200 playground of

01:21:37.940 sociology of

01:21:38.680 religion but all 0.98

01:21:39.700 my stuff well most

01:21:40.860 of my stuff is

01:21:41.460 quantitative so I

01:21:42.360 actually I wasn't

01:21:43.520 familiar with what

01:21:44.860 was going I don't I

01:21:46.060 go to conferences

01:21:46.760 where everybody has

01:21:48.260 to have strong

01:21:49.020 empirical evidence I

01:21:50.240 publish in journals

01:21:51.040 that are international

01:21:51.820 journals that are

01:21:53.060 scientific study of

01:21:54.960 religion is what we

01:21:56.540 do so you know I'm

01:21:58.440 familiar with Foucault

01:21:59.760 and that stuff but

01:22:00.760 that's not where I

01:22:01.360 play so I wasn't

01:22:02.540 really exposed to

01:22:03.720 what's going on and

01:22:04.440 you don't and you

01:22:04.920 don't really think

01:22:05.620 well they can't

01:22:06.960 there's no reason to

01:22:07.820 be that concerned

01:22:08.520 about it until about

01:22:09.300 three years ago

01:22:10.000 well this is it and

01:22:10.740 but then I'm trying

01:22:11.660 to get into the

01:22:12.280 headspace of some

01:22:13.920 of my colleagues so

01:22:15.420 I got out a

01:22:16.080 textbook it was

01:22:17.280 called race class

01:22:18.400 and gender and

01:22:19.120 it's it's an

01:22:19.740 anthology that's

01:22:20.540 used in cultural

01:22:22.320 studies courses in

01:22:23.440 women's studies

01:22:24.040 courses and it's

01:22:25.100 sort of the go-to

01:22:25.920 text so I'm told

01:22:27.020 and I'm reading it

01:22:28.600 and I turned it and

01:22:29.340 I I turned to page

01:22:31.060 14 and I can tell

01:22:31.900 you it's page 14

01:22:32.740 because I was so

01:22:33.440 astounded by what I

01:22:34.320 found and it said

01:22:35.960 we oh it says

01:22:38.500 objectivity as found

01:22:40.600 through rational

01:22:41.360 thought is a

01:22:42.800 western and

01:22:43.900 masculine concept

01:22:44.960 that we will

01:22:46.000 challenge throughout

01:22:47.000 this text yeah

01:22:47.940 right yeah yeah

01:22:49.340 and I said it's

01:22:50.480 too bad it's too

01:22:51.440 bad that you're

01:22:52.100 shocked by that

01:22:52.980 because I couldn't

01:22:53.920 believe it so you

01:22:54.840 want to go for

01:22:55.540 irrational the PC

01:22:56.560 types have been

01:22:57.240 saying exactly that

01:22:58.200 since the 1970s

01:22:59.620 like that is

01:23:00.220 exact they make

01:23:01.240 no mistake about

01:23:02.060 this this is why

01:23:02.680 McClatchy is wrong

01:23:03.580 this isn't this

01:23:04.980 isn't something

01:23:05.540 they're secreting

01:23:06.380 in this is the

01:23:08.120 dead statement

01:23:08.960 oh yeah it's

01:23:09.780 that the the

01:23:11.540 whole notion of

01:23:12.400 logic and

01:23:13.300 coherence and

01:23:14.180 empirical data for

01:23:15.120 that matter

01:23:15.640 evidence is a

01:23:17.300 very nature

01:23:17.720 evidence let's

01:23:19.340 question let's

01:23:20.200 question the

01:23:20.740 definition of

01:23:21.440 evidence because

01:23:22.240 the underlying

01:23:22.820 idea remember the

01:23:23.880 underlying idea

01:23:24.580 here is that all

01:23:25.460 hierarchies are

01:23:26.880 predicated on

01:23:27.580 power so if the

01:23:29.260 reason that I put

01:23:30.200 forward something as

01:23:31.040 evidence isn't

01:23:32.020 because it's

01:23:32.480 evidence it's

01:23:33.860 because it's

01:23:34.240 evidence that I

01:23:34.880 get to have that

01:23:35.520 position of

01:23:36.080 power and so if

01:23:37.380 you're a

01:23:37.680 postmodernist and

01:23:38.540 you say well I'm

01:23:39.100 going to question

01:23:39.540 your evidence what

01:23:40.380 you think you're

01:23:41.280 saying is you're

01:23:42.300 going to question my

01:23:43.520 claim to that

01:23:44.300 arbitrary power the

01:23:45.700 whole idea that

01:23:46.360 there's evidence

01:23:47.040 outside of claims of

01:23:48.280 arbitrary power the

01:23:49.460 postmodernists dispensed

01:23:50.740 with that in the

01:23:51.220 1970s that's Derrida

01:23:52.940 that's exactly what he

01:23:54.920 said and all this

01:23:56.360 time I've been trying

01:23:57.120 to get samples of

01:23:57.960 thousands so that I

01:23:58.880 could say you know

01:23:59.520 this is a little bit

01:24:00.400 we can say something

01:24:02.400 you can generalize

01:24:03.800 no no that just

01:24:04.660 demonstrates how

01:24:05.480 thoroughly entrenched

01:24:06.500 you are in the

01:24:07.240 reigning patriarchal

01:24:08.160 ideology I guess and

01:24:09.480 I was just hoping to

01:24:10.320 get beyond anecdotal

01:24:11.760 there's no beyond

01:24:13.220 there's no beyond

01:24:14.480 anecdotal that's

01:24:15.380 become a methodology

01:24:16.180 that's auto

01:24:16.940 experience it's called

01:24:18.080 auto ethnography

01:24:19.300 there's a technical

01:24:20.600 term for it and

01:24:21.300 auto ethnography is

01:24:22.540 the publication of a

01:24:24.460 journal of a of a

01:24:25.740 private diary

01:24:26.640 essentially in a

01:24:28.000 hypothetically

01:24:29.640 reputable 0.82

01:24:30.320 reputable

01:24:32.580 academic journal

01:24:34.200 it's only because of

01:24:37.400 in the last three or

01:24:38.280 four years that these

01:24:39.060 things have been

01:24:39.480 happening that I

01:24:39.980 say well where

01:24:40.500 where do they get

01:24:41.180 this how do they

01:24:42.500 how do they find

01:24:44.320 these thoughts

01:24:45.180 yes well we don't

01:24:46.540 we don't want to

01:24:47.300 fall into the mistake

01:24:48.360 of making of making

01:24:49.660 the assumption that

01:24:50.860 this hasn't been

01:24:51.540 thought through

01:24:52.140 no people are not

01:24:53.640 just misunderstanding

01:24:54.880 what evidence is

01:24:56.080 that isn't what's

01:24:57.120 happening at all

01:24:57.800 when they say they

01:24:58.820 want to question the

01:24:59.820 definition of evidence

01:25:00.940 that's exactly what

01:25:02.340 they mean when they

01:25:03.280 say we want to

01:25:03.980 question the definition

01:25:05.280 of evidence because

01:25:06.140 the definition of

01:25:07.220 evidence currently

01:25:08.440 supports the

01:25:09.300 scientific power

01:25:10.080 structure in

01:25:10.720 chemistry say and

01:25:11.820 that's fundamentally

01:25:12.740 dominated by let's

01:25:13.820 say white men we

01:25:15.020 can go after the

01:25:15.680 definition of evidence

01:25:16.520 itself and that's

01:25:17.960 how we're going to

01:25:18.380 bring it down and

01:25:19.540 so the next people on

01:25:20.540 the hit list are

01:25:21.160 going to be the

01:25:21.660 biologists they're 0.71

01:25:22.420 already under attack

01:25:23.480 from the social

01:25:24.040 justice warriors

01:25:24.600 that said that

01:25:25.180 mathematics is

01:25:26.000 whiteness yeah

01:25:26.760 yeah yeah definitely

01:25:28.220 i didn't know that

01:25:30.100 mathematics could have

01:25:31.360 a race

01:25:31.760 yeah but the thing

01:25:33.740 the thing is there's

01:25:34.340 nothing illogical about

01:25:35.460 these claims once you

01:25:36.500 accept this central

01:25:37.760 axioms the axioms are

01:25:39.060 straightforward the

01:25:40.420 world is a battleground

01:25:42.100 of power hierarchies

01:25:43.220 that's what it is there

01:25:44.860 isn't anything else

01:25:45.840 outside of that and

01:25:47.700 each power hierarchy

01:25:48.940 generates its own

01:25:50.200 internal narrative

01:25:52.300 including rules for what

01:25:54.500 constitutes evidence

01:25:55.600 that support and

01:25:56.940 buttress the structure

01:25:57.820 of that hierarchy

01:25:59.220 and because the

01:26:01.320 hierarchies exclude

01:26:02.380 then it's in the best

01:26:03.600 interests of the people

01:26:04.500 who are excluded to

01:26:05.540 invert the hierarchy

01:26:06.520 and of course they also

01:26:07.520 regard that as just

01:26:08.460 even though that's

01:26:09.480 part of the incoherence

01:26:11.000 of the entire argument

01:26:11.980 that's where they have

01:26:12.940 to turn to Marxism

01:26:14.020 but make no mistake

01:26:15.540 about it this isn't

01:26:16.920 this isn't accidental

01:26:17.900 it isn't people

01:26:18.540 misunderstanding what

01:26:19.820 constitutes evidence

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01:27:35.920 Jordan

01:27:36.300 now I've been listening

01:27:40.900 to some of your

01:27:41.520 lectures on this for the

01:27:42.540 last year and thinking

01:27:43.780 you sound a little

01:27:44.680 deranged well I might

01:27:48.920 be a little deranged

01:27:49.660 but I'm not deranged

01:27:50.500 about this and then

01:27:52.400 this whole episode of

01:27:53.620 Lindsay Shevard just

01:27:54.500 just proves that every

01:27:56.420 dimension of this is

01:27:57.600 about power the

01:27:59.840 doublespeak the the

01:28:00.940 changing of terminology

01:28:02.060 from harm that exposing

01:28:03.920 people to ideas could be

01:28:04.920 violent the circling the

01:28:07.120 sacred circling around

01:28:08.000 the victim group well

01:28:09.640 look at look at what

01:28:10.340 happened at Wilfrid

01:28:11.320 Laurier one of the things

01:28:12.280 that was so bloody

01:28:12.860 interesting that I

01:28:14.060 thought was just

01:28:14.560 fascinating was the

01:28:16.160 unbelievably strategic

01:28:19.020 attempt to transform

01:28:21.100 Sheppard into the

01:28:22.280 perpetrator and Rambucanna

01:28:23.660 and Pimlot into the

01:28:24.680 victims especially

01:28:25.340 Rambucanna as a

01:28:26.220 professor of color right

01:28:27.840 so so what what

01:28:29.140 happens the the

01:28:30.720 reverse narrative was

01:28:32.000 well Lindsay Sheppard

01:28:33.160 was using something

01:28:34.040 like her white 0.89

01:28:34.840 privilege and her 0.96

01:28:35.660 white tears yeah to

01:28:37.120 to harass a poor 0.99

01:28:39.460 professor of color

01:28:40.780 untenured professor of

01:28:42.340 color yeah yeah and

01:28:43.840 that and there was

01:28:44.740 every attempt made on

01:28:47.240 the part of the people

01:28:48.180 who were going after

01:28:49.000 Sheppard to make that

01:28:50.600 the narrative so well

01:28:52.440 and they they started

01:28:53.360 accusing everyone of

01:28:54.640 being transphobic just

01:28:57.000 right out of the blocks

01:28:57.980 within days of this we

01:28:59.160 were all tired with that

01:29:00.440 epithet immediately the

01:29:02.400 labels have been just

01:29:03.280 flying and without any

01:29:05.000 regard to the intent of

01:29:06.100 the person or even the

01:29:07.000 content here here's

01:29:08.040 something interesting

01:29:08.760 about the transphobia

01:29:09.760 issue too so I've had

01:29:11.300 at least now a number

01:29:13.000 of good discussions with

01:29:14.320 trans people by the way

01:29:15.320 but also a number of

01:29:16.340 letters from trans people

01:29:17.440 over the last year about

01:29:18.620 40 of them as a matter of

01:29:19.760 fact which is a lot of

01:29:20.840 letters because there

01:29:21.500 aren't that many trans

01:29:22.460 people and every single

01:29:24.120 one of them I think I

01:29:25.000 got one letter from a

01:29:26.300 trans person who wasn't

01:29:27.280 happy with what I was

01:29:28.120 doing but every single

01:29:29.700 one of the other letters

01:29:30.540 said the same thing we

01:29:31.920 are sick and tired of

01:29:33.040 being the poster child for

01:29:34.960 these activists who claim

01:29:36.400 to speak in our name

01:29:37.580 because that's another

01:29:38.300 thing that we should be

01:29:39.060 very aware of is just

01:29:40.000 because an activist comes

01:29:41.200 out and says I'm a

01:29:42.660 member of this minority

01:29:43.680 group and therefore I

01:29:44.980 speak for them it's like

01:29:46.100 the first claim might be

01:29:47.440 true but the second claim

01:29:48.740 is not only unjustifiable

01:29:50.940 it's actually I would say

01:29:52.940 it's it's not racist

01:29:55.180 exactly but it's it's

01:29:56.540 groupist because it's

01:29:58.480 predicated on the

01:29:59.200 assumption that just

01:29:59.980 because you happen to be

01:30:00.940 the member of a class

01:30:02.080 that you're a 0.87

01:30:03.340 representative member of

01:30:04.740 that class that class is

01:30:06.000 so homogenous that

01:30:07.840 everyone in it is the

01:30:08.900 same enough so that all

01:30:10.080 the members within it can

01:30:11.040 speak for all the other

01:30:11.920 members right used to

01:30:13.380 call that racism when it

01:30:14.580 was it applied to racial

01:30:15.440 categories absolutely but

01:30:17.220 Lindsay has been very good

01:30:18.340 to point out and so have

01:30:19.760 some of the media that

01:30:21.200 there have been uh

01:30:22.520 transgendered students at

01:30:24.260 Laurier who have spoken

01:30:26.500 out in support of Lindsay

01:30:27.700 and we have to keep this in

01:30:29.300 mind that this is not a

01:30:30.440 transgendered issue no and

01:30:32.040 neither was my comments on

01:30:33.360 bill c16 because I mean all

01:30:36.780 I know that Lindsay as

01:30:40.700 she even said she is not

01:30:42.580 transphobic she supports 0.96

01:30:44.260 the rights of transgendered

01:30:45.740 people this is she's

01:30:47.060 unequivocal in that uh and

01:30:49.680 and I think that that

01:30:50.560 that's just cover story for

01:30:52.100 her true right-wing beliefs

01:30:53.660 and there are transgendered

01:30:56.720 students who have come to

01:30:58.180 her support and at great

01:30:59.320 personal cost to themselves

01:31:00.760 like those are some brave

01:31:02.100 people there right to break

01:31:04.480 with that group that the

01:31:06.100 hostility in that group is

01:31:07.320 real in the activist end of

01:31:09.680 the group you bet you bet

01:31:11.480 they were so quick uh to take

01:31:14.100 over this uh issue as their

01:31:16.840 own and claim that the the

01:31:18.820 debate itself was violence yeah

01:31:20.740 and that it was just cover for

01:31:22.480 this uh transphobic climate uh

01:31:24.740 that existed and it has nothing

01:31:26.840 to do with transgendered people

01:31:28.600 well you know it's it's funny

01:31:30.200 too you saw the same thing with

01:31:31.700 um rinaldo walcott when he was

01:31:33.660 on the director of the women's

01:31:35.060 and diversity women's and

01:31:36.420 gender studies at at the at oise

01:31:38.420 at the university of toronto he

01:31:40.420 claimed that he claimed like

01:31:42.080 four times in that interview that

01:31:43.600 the university of toronto was a

01:31:45.080 white supremacist organization and

01:31:46.820 i thought i i just don't know

01:31:48.620 what to make of that like i i

01:31:50.460 traveled down to my office about

01:31:51.920 a week after that that uh that

01:31:54.600 interview and i happened by some

01:31:56.880 students who were standing outside

01:31:58.380 waiting to write an exam so

01:32:00.900 there's about a hundred of them

01:32:01.840 may and like this is

01:32:04.360 particularly true at the

01:32:05.180 university of toronto i would say

01:32:06.680 that you you could look at that

01:32:10.240 group of students for more than

01:32:11.720 two seconds and think that that

01:32:13.260 was a white supremacist

01:32:14.340 organization i mean it's so

01:32:16.500 ethnically diverse if you think

01:32:19.240 that the university of toronto is a

01:32:21.440 white supremacist organization then

01:32:24.920 what that essentially means is that

01:32:26.620 the most tolerant institution in the

01:32:30.080 most tolerant city in the most

01:32:32.060 tolerant province in the most

01:32:33.520 tolerant country in the world is

01:32:36.100 white supremacist so it's like well 0.97

01:32:40.140 then well i don't well i don't i don't

01:32:43.480 even know what you could especially

01:32:45.100 when you say that as someone who's a

01:32:48.280 full professor i don't know if he's a

01:32:50.580 full professor who's a professor at

01:32:52.540 that institute it's like where's your

01:32:54.400 evidence for this that same professor

01:32:56.800 was using racial slurs against lindsay

01:33:00.440 oh yes the white tears thing they're

01:33:04.280 also misogynistic right because it's

01:33:06.360 white girl tears i could never ever

01:33:10.040 do something like that to any student of

01:33:14.860 any race i just don't understand how the

01:33:17.120 people on the far left can rationalize

01:33:19.660 that kind of behavior it it just it's

01:33:22.820 well i think they can rationalize it with

01:33:25.460 power but in terms of civility just in

01:33:28.060 civility in recognizing the humanity in

01:33:30.680 every person how can you resort to those

01:33:33.780 kind of racial slights i just i don't i

01:33:37.100 don't understand how you can say don't

01:33:38.440 be racist and then you make racial

01:33:40.320 comments terribly racist comments i just i

01:33:44.020 don't do people well no there's the

01:33:46.000 idea there is straightforward you cannot

01:33:48.580 utter racist comments against the

01:33:50.920 dominant group that's the rule if

01:33:54.060 there's a dominant group so once you

01:33:55.440 identify them as oppressor you can say

01:33:57.200 anything you want about them because

01:33:58.420 by definition this is axiomatic in in the

01:34:01.260 ideology you can't say anything racist

01:34:03.460 about the oppressors that that's like a

01:34:05.600 rule it's it's it's it's a rule of

01:34:08.320 discourse so here's where i go with

01:34:10.300 this for self-interest do you not

01:34:12.700 realize when you say i don't care about 0.98

01:34:16.060 your effing white fragility now that was 0.98

01:34:18.280 not waldecott is that his did i get his 0.96

01:34:20.540 name right no walcott walcott he didn't

01:34:25.180 say but others other pundits have said

01:34:27.040 that and it's appeared on lindsey's

01:34:29.000 twitter page where they've assaulted her

01:34:30.520 there or at least that's too dramatic

01:34:32.300 where they've made insulted her there 0.97

01:34:35.320 insulted her there uh but my point would

01:34:39.100 be even in your self-interest do you not

01:34:41.180 realize that you are giving ammunition 0.80

01:34:43.240 to the real white supremacist do you not

01:34:46.600 realize that there are really dangerous

01:34:48.680 people on the right who are looking for

01:34:50.820 that exact kind of comment to rationalize

01:34:54.020 their behavior well if you're trying to

01:34:55.660 burn something down what makes you think

01:34:57.280 you're going to be so careful about how

01:34:59.140 it burns down and i really mean that look

01:35:01.640 i mean i've i've i've have interactions

01:35:03.980 with the right-wing racial supremacists

01:35:07.080 online they're not very happy with me and

01:35:09.140 it's because i call them out for the same

01:35:10.760 sort of behavior that the leftists

01:35:12.260 manifest which is like i don't i'm not

01:35:15.100 impressed by your manifestation of group

01:35:17.660 identity uber all let's say but i

01:35:20.680 understand that the radical right-wingers

01:35:23.640 are playing the same game as the radical

01:35:25.600 left-wingers so you might say well why

01:35:27.060 would the radical left-wingers play into

01:35:28.440 their hands i would say well if you're

01:35:30.340 trying to if you're trying to burn the 0.99

01:35:31.820 whole damn house down then why not 0.99

01:35:34.060 inflame the people who are most likely to 0.99

01:35:35.620 do it and you might think well no that

01:35:37.600 that's not in anybody's best interest

01:35:39.240 it's like it's the stated aim of this

01:35:41.240 ideology right they want to invert the

01:35:43.600 they want to invert the patriarchy

01:35:45.760 essentially well what's the patriarchy

01:35:47.760 well it's the white supremacist university of

01:35:50.740 toronto so who cares if you're handing

01:35:54.700 your opponents weapons you're hoping that

01:35:57.420 it will escalate that the people on the

01:35:59.160 left as well as the people on the right

01:36:00.460 escalated yeah it's the point it's so

01:36:04.140 that it's power because uh this is the

01:36:07.080 same thing that happened at evergreen

01:36:08.280 state and the whole uh justification

01:36:10.780 there was racism not i know and they

01:36:13.480 went after brett weinstein who was about

01:36:15.380 is i mean brett is he's a bernie he's a 0.57

01:36:19.060 bernie supporter right exactly well they

01:36:21.580 eat their own last week from mike paris

01:36:24.000 who was the only colleague of his that

01:36:26.400 publicly defended him and he emails me and

01:36:29.500 he says i've been following the story

01:36:30.940 closely and i just want to reach out and

01:36:32.920 just you know commiserate with you and

01:36:35.780 wonder is there anything we can do or

01:36:37.340 talk about together and i thought no

01:36:40.080 you're from evergreen state you know

01:36:41.760 that's a nightmare and i thought we're

01:36:43.780 not that bad but but it's the same

01:36:47.620 pattern repeated it's not about

01:36:50.960 transgender people and and their rights

01:36:53.660 and and so just the victim oh yeah

01:36:56.040 no the the transgender people as far as

01:36:58.920 i'm concerned we're we're like 0.99

01:37:00.360 sacrificial animals on the altar of bill

01:37:02.540 c16 the activists have a new group

01:37:05.020 that's oppressed to wave the flag for

01:37:06.580 to push forward their ideology and and

01:37:08.600 and as i said the consistent message i've

01:37:10.900 got from transsexual people is i wish 1.00

01:37:12.820 they just shut the hell up and quit 1.00

01:37:14.920 putting us out in in the in the public

01:37:17.280 eye in that guise because all they're

01:37:18.920 doing is making our life more difficult

01:37:20.580 it's like well it doesn't matter we're

01:37:22.100 trying to tear down the patriarchy who

01:37:23.600 cares if your life is being made more

01:37:25.040 difficult it's like you have you don't

01:37:27.340 make an omelet without breaking a few

01:37:28.860 eggs we want to keep that in mind

01:37:30.780 okay laurie prepares our students and

01:37:34.060 instructors for difficult discussions

01:37:35.900 yeah probably not we support our

01:37:39.580 teachers in navigating complex and

01:37:41.240 divisive issues with care and

01:37:42.580 confidence that's a more credible

01:37:45.340 statement i mean especially given the

01:37:47.280 outcome of this i just want to take you

01:37:48.980 back to the last sentence of the

01:37:50.440 previous paragraph laurie has a

01:37:52.420 commitment to academic freedom freedom

01:37:54.640 of expression well that's unequivocal

01:37:56.880 perfect yes except that they won't

01:37:59.980 adopt the the the chicago principles

01:38:02.200 and something else to keep in mind that

01:38:04.780 i think this is the first time anybody's

01:38:07.220 talked about this when we were

01:38:09.440 established in 1973 the wilfrid laurier

01:38:14.000 act says specifically that this

01:38:18.180 university will be dedicated to

01:38:21.820 research and teaching in the spirit of

01:38:24.520 free inquiry and free expression that is

01:38:27.460 the establishing act of our university

01:38:29.580 charter the charter statement and and

01:38:31.820 and that is what it says is our mission

01:38:34.200 so in fact we are breaking the law by not

01:38:39.740 standing behind maximum free expression

01:38:43.520 and max free inquiry because it it is

01:38:46.180 right in our very founding principle our

01:38:48.460 very founding charter and the fact that we

01:38:51.220 are so hesitant to to just embrace that and

01:38:55.160 say we know that it's within this contest of

01:38:58.800 ideas that the best facts come forward and

01:39:01.000 knowledge is advanced why are we afraid of that why are we

01:39:05.560 afraid what's made made every university a great university

01:39:09.720 since because we're doubtful about the integrity of the institution like this this critique that whose claim is that our institution

01:39:18.160 our patriarchal institutions are fundamentally corrupt and oppressive is sufficiently what would you say makes people sufficiently guilty so they're perfectly willing to circumvent their adherence to policies to charter policies like that

01:39:33.860 i i just think that at some point you have to say this is why you were created

01:39:38.420 maybe we should get back to this and maybe i mean maybe there's a someone who is in the provincial parliament who's going to say i'm kind of upset that you've actually rejected the very founding charter

01:39:50.660 i i would yeah well there's no one in the current well in the current legislature that would do that

01:39:55.700 certainly not in the current government not by any not by not no chance at all okay

01:40:00.300 um we support our teachers in navigating complex and divisive issues with care and confidence

01:40:05.500 we are leaders in ensuring our students faculty and staff have the necessary supports and tools

01:40:11.920 to help those who've experienced marginalization and discrimination to engage fully

01:40:16.400 okay okay so now you see the reversal right right away here is and this happens every time now that a modern university virtually every time that a modern university comes out

01:40:24.840 with a statement in favor of free speech the next thing they do is is bring in this competing set of claims like the uh

01:40:32.500 to help those who have experienced marginalization and discrimination to engage fully

01:40:38.120 as soon as the word marginalization is in there then you know that that postmodern ethos is in has has what has has

01:40:45.300 has manifested itself within the within the confines of the document properly grounded academic debate at laurier occurs every day

01:40:53.740 and encourages critical thinking and civil discourse yeah ideas that one finds objectionable should be challenged and debated

01:41:01.180 the common good of society depends on the search for knowledge and its free expression

01:41:05.340 hey fair enough good statements free expression in academic university academic freedom at the university require accompanying

01:41:13.060 responsibilities and accountabilities to be met by members of the university community

01:41:17.200 the other should drugs

01:41:18.500 well even that statement's not so bad i mean okay faculty members have responsibilities and they should be accountable

01:41:25.720 i think i think that university should be a civil place i think that it should be civil

01:41:30.500 yes right yes definitely and and i think that there should be tolerance but tolerance is very different

01:41:36.500 from an embrace and a complete embrace of what diversity is now defined as or equity is defined it tolerance means

01:41:43.700 i disagree but i'm going to let you speak anyway yes and that really is the goal of a university

01:41:48.480 uh so anyway yeah okay we we will continue to ensure that we are protected against protecting against and dealing

01:41:55.120 with hate and intolerance these have those have no place in civil society see that i'm not so sure about

01:42:02.000 that hate and intolerance have no place in civil society the problem with that is hate hate and

01:42:07.860 intolerance is not defined here that that is the problem and and the i keep hearing hate speech is not

01:42:14.520 free speech and then when i ask well what do you mean by hate speech yes that is the problem

01:42:19.020 well the other thing too is i'm actually allowed to hate you it's okay you might have done something 0.59

01:42:25.680 that makes me hate you but that but there are limits on what i can do as a consequence of that hate and

01:42:31.140 that is not so there's two problems right the first problem is this is a big one who defines hate that's

01:42:36.680 a major problem and the second is well you don't limit hate you can't limit hate any more than you can

01:42:42.840 limit anger or aggression but you can limit the manner in which people conduct themselves when they're

01:42:47.860 motivated by those emotions and let's be clear there is really a clear definition of hate when you look

01:42:53.740 at the criminal code under sections 318 and 319 it says you cannot advocate physical violence against

01:43:01.480 an identifiable group i am totally on board with that like let's let's be clear you can't say go and

01:43:09.180 hurt these people i got that but that's really clear where's that definite well i just want to see

01:43:16.560 well the issue there is something we discussed earlier is well then we can gerrymander the definition of

01:43:22.040 hurt right well i'm talking physical advocating physical violence right physical i throw that

01:43:28.340 physical in there because the criminal code also does i think it does it in such a way to say we can

01:43:32.940 harm what is harm again harm is long-term infliction of damage that compromises your ability to function

01:43:42.580 or your appearance right it's a pragmatic definition and it's grounded in common law so we actually have a

01:43:47.740 history of defining it so that's safe and let's not move away from these definitions because they're the thing

01:43:52.720 that allow us to have conversations that are uncomfortable but needed

01:43:57.340 okay good they uh these have no place in civil society let alone on a university campus they will

01:44:06.540 not be tolerated at laurier yes well we see we saw an example of that not being tolerated with the

01:44:13.500 lindsay shepard case i remain concerned by the way faculty staff and students involved in aspects of

01:44:19.180 this situation were targeted with such vitriol now now things are starting to get out of hand

01:44:24.360 i remain concerned by the way faculty staff and students involved in aspects of this situation

01:44:29.780 were targeted with what with such vitriol vitriol that's acid eh so um is she you think she's talking

01:44:35.960 about the tweets that lindsay has received then is that faculty staff and students so not just lindsay

01:44:42.220 but i just wonder is this does this apply to those who have been advocating free speech and and i i'm

01:44:50.140 i'm just i'm pointing it out there i mean all of us who have come out in favor of maximum free speech

01:44:55.220 have been subjected to a lot of vitriol uh both emails and and it's always anonymous emails it's always

01:45:02.980 from people who will not say who they are so but my point would be i and unless there was something

01:45:09.840 that simply said i am threatening your life i just i delete it that's what i do because this is what

01:45:16.820 happens i mean i wish people were civil but they're not there's no discussing hard issues without

01:45:22.200 conflict like that's just not happening the question is how you limit the conflict and you can't limit it

01:45:27.720 to none because then people can't have a conflict they can't solve a problem so what you do is you you

01:45:32.700 limit it well as we've limited quite successfully in our country to date right we use the definitions of

01:45:38.340 violence that have prevailed throughout the establishment of english common law and that

01:45:41.960 works just fine my concern about that paragraph is is that she's kowtowing let's say to concerns

01:45:50.660 about the way that the people who actually let's say perpetrated this event were um dealt with by

01:45:58.100 members of the general public so okay member members of the university community must be supported

01:46:04.640 to work and study in an environment free of discrimination and harassment that's a tougher

01:46:09.880 one and they have my commitment we will continue to make this a university priority yeah that's a

01:46:16.240 sentence that worries me in an environment free of discrimination and harassment and they have my

01:46:21.660 the problem is it's so difficult to distinguish that between real dispute you know i mean if you're

01:46:28.280 if you're committed to a line of argumentation you've staked your whole your whole life on it say

01:46:32.840 your your whole academic career and you're engaged in a dispute with someone else who holds a contrary

01:46:37.940 viewpoint there's going to be heat and sparks generated by that exchange there has to be

01:46:43.140 because otherwise you're not talking about anything of any importance yeah if we all agree we don't need

01:46:48.040 free speech i mean that's yes that's the standard that's the thing right but when i read this line

01:46:53.000 uh members of the university community must be supported to work and study in an environment free of

01:46:59.600 discrimination and harassment and and i just wonder how equally that idea has been applied at my university

01:47:09.500 so far because certainly we know that our president has sent out letters of support to the lgbtq community

01:47:17.660 which she was right to do if if they are feeling harassed i have no problem with that but at the same

01:47:24.180 time there are official bodies at our university the women's center uh and other bodies that are under the 0.52

01:47:30.700 auspices of the diversity and equity office if i'm correct that are petitioning to have uh there's a pro-life

01:47:37.380 group on campus and and they are petitioning to have them defunded and shut down right so so did deborah

01:47:44.260 mcclatchy send out a letter to all the people who are supporting lindsey shepherd to say well we're really sorry about all the

01:47:49.800 harassment this is my point you're receiving this is my point our president is aware that there's a group on campus

01:47:56.140 that are marginalized yeah these are the the pro-life students and i don't care what your position is pro-life

01:48:03.180 or or or pro-choice whatever your position is you bloody well have to admit that there's at least a debate

01:48:08.900 there is a debate but and the point i would make is here truly is a marginalized group of students

01:48:15.200 who have received no support from our university none and i know my president is aware because early

01:48:21.600 on in this controversy i said and another matter is that these students are being attacked or i'm sorry

01:48:28.640 i don't want to use hyperbolic language these students are being harassed and they are being harassed

01:48:33.720 because they're they're being threatened with having their funding removed by official bodies of the

01:48:39.220 university yeah well this the pro-life students are real canaries in the coal mine as far as i'm concerned

01:48:44.360 regardless of what you think about what they're doing they represent diversity it's ideological

01:48:50.080 diversity but we're not seeing any reception of these diverse students do they are they being 1.00

01:48:57.220 included in this diversity and inclusion no they're being excluded purposely by actual offices of my

01:49:04.220 university so i'm saying yeah that's that's standard practice i would say on campuses across the

01:49:09.640 country it's just uneven yeah it's uneven and i think that what what we need to see uh is just a

01:49:17.340 policy that applies to all students and not just those who smell right or are orthodox to the social

01:49:23.960 justice orthodox who are in the what would you call acceptable class of victims that's right okay it

01:49:30.020 bears repeating in the current context that laurier's support for our lesbian gay bi trans queer and two

01:49:35.580 spirited campus community and transgender people in particular is unwavering it isn't obvious that it

01:49:40.920 bears repeating in the current context because the issue here fundamentally is that lindsay shepard was 0.73

01:49:47.100 was subject to an administrative inquisition despite the fact that she was 100 innocent by the

01:49:54.080 university's own standards and so it doesn't bear repeating in the current context that laurier's support

01:50:00.120 for our lbgt2 lgbtqts campus community and and transgender people in particular is unwavering

01:50:08.960 it actually isn't about them it's not about them at all it's about the fact that she got pilloried for

01:50:14.480 doing something that she was actually right to do so i'm not happy with the fact that this paragraph

01:50:20.840 was inserted into here i think it's an indication of exactly the kind of administrative weakness that

01:50:27.420 allowed this sort of event to occur to begin with now this is the theme though right of the justice

01:50:33.000 warriors is that this is the victim group yeah they've repeated over and over that there's been

01:50:37.120 violence harassment vitriol everybody's picking up on that the union president said that was daily

01:50:43.160 occurrence the president's repeated she's issued a campus-wide email in response to the open letter

01:50:48.420 saying uh we're going to make this a safe campus uh she's repeating it here so the validation of their

01:50:54.240 narrative of victimization emerging from the lindsey shepard event without evidence we we we actually

01:51:00.140 sent an email to our faculty uh the union the union president and we said we're concerned about this

01:51:08.220 daily uh violence on campus could you please supply us with evidence of this and she wrote back and she

01:51:16.420 said uh what did she say well something as i'm telling everyone in the press no yeah because it would

01:51:23.480 inflate didn't she say because it would inflame the it would inflame the situation even further

01:51:28.600 yeah with something like that so how how in the world providing evidence that something like that

01:51:33.860 we're members of the union we are paying our fees just like everyone else and we just we wanted

01:51:40.380 substanti some some substantiation to these claims that there was violence as a daily occurrence the whole

01:51:47.760 premise is that there's injury happening and that's why we can't speak about these things

01:51:51.920 so if they can establish the violence then maybe we're sympathetic to the argument that the speech

01:51:56.720 shouldn't occur but but that's susceptible to bogus claims if there's no substantiation

01:52:02.280 you can't build policy that way yeah not without getting into the kind of trouble that's already emerged

01:52:09.120 in light of recent events we have added measures to improve campus safety well it is by no see that that

01:52:16.360 that that actually seems to me to be the one sentence in this article so far that's actually a mistake

01:52:23.400 because by going forward with um what practices that are going to improve campus safety then

01:52:32.580 the president is validating the claims of the people who claim that this occurrence produced an unsafe

01:52:40.360 environment on the campus it's like so i i i think that that was weak we will ensure that all students

01:52:49.180 staff and faculty know exactly what our commitment to academic freedom and freedom of expression means

01:52:53.800 in the classroom that would be good to us in that end we have established the task force on freedom

01:52:59.220 of expression to take input from our community which we should point out which won't include lindsay

01:53:05.080 shepherd yeah right because she asked to be part of that task force in fact i believe that they

01:53:09.800 offered it to her i'm not exactly sure about she was some some grad students nominated her and it was

01:53:15.460 prior to the revelation being made that it would be the position would be filled by the president of

01:53:21.140 the graduate students association who and i think this was poor form uh just before that announcement

01:53:29.160 was made the president of the graduate students association put out a statement where i i'm not

01:53:36.380 sure if it's a he or a she or i'm not sure of the the uh gender pronoun used but um that they were

01:53:43.080 standing 100 behind the trans and lgbtq yeah and they and that the fact that they were going to sit 0.95

01:53:49.900 on the on the task force would indicate that all students would be represented properly but it's just

01:53:54.940 they they showed this incredible uh bias and and then they said and we're going to be sitting on

01:54:01.600 this i just don't i don't know that that does a service to all the grad students who they represent

01:54:05.840 all right look at best practices beyond laurier hey they could look at chicago that'd be good

01:54:13.540 and develop a clear tangible and you never know maybe they will you never know and develop a clear

01:54:18.880 tangible set of practical implementable guidelines that will bring clarity to this issue for our own

01:54:23.680 classrooms and will have the potential to serve as best practices for others well that's exactly

01:54:27.840 what you guys are recommending that is my commitment to you well and it's not like the university of

01:54:32.740 chicago is a lightweight and it's not just the university of chicago over 30 universities many of

01:54:38.640 them ivy league have adopted right the chicago statements to great effect right right and so so this

01:54:43.600 is this is something that has worked yeah that is working yeah it's clearly something that should

01:54:49.440 happen in canada it would be a wonderful thing it would be a wonderful thing it would be it would

01:54:53.280 be a wonderful so it's not like we're trying to institute this policy that hasn't worked and that

01:54:58.880 hasn't been been accepted by really prominent universities in the u.s and it doesn't it doesn't

01:55:05.200 involve u.s uh law or legalese it is simply a statement of philosophy about what we want and which

01:55:12.960 is maximum free expression and free inquiry within the bounds of the law and i just think this task force

01:55:18.160 is going to be a disaster because the justice uh advocates aren't interested in free speech they

01:55:25.760 they want to forbid certain forms of speech and it's just a question of which topics and who's going

01:55:30.880 to control the well there might be enough public scrutiny like i don't think interest in wilfrid lorie

01:55:35.760 i'm sure that the president would be real happy if this went away but i think the probability that

01:55:40.800 it's going to go away is very low because i think wilfrid lorie is now being watched and being watched by

01:55:45.920 very many people to see what the genuine outcome of this will be and i think that even if it was

01:55:51.360 ignored by the mainstream media which it might be it's not going to be ignored by people on youtube

01:55:56.240 and the people who've been who've been generating content associated with lindsay shepard and the

01:56:01.440 the magnitude of that content online is absolutely overwhelming i don't know if the wilfrid lorie

01:56:06.320 administrators know because you know people older than 40 usually don't know much about online media

01:56:11.840 but the amount of commentary this has been generated this is generated on youtube is

01:56:16.960 absolutely beyond belief like it was a major scandal back to the task force though and will you've said

01:56:22.640 this in the past the freedom of expression proponents we already are the compromise position

01:56:28.400 because we are saying we want you to be able to articulate whatever position you have

01:56:34.000 we want you to be able like we are the compromise position we're not saying we want to shut down

01:56:39.280 anybody whatever your position is let's hear it that's that that is where we are so we're already

01:56:46.960 in that compromise position within the boundaries of the law within the boundaries of the law actions

01:56:51.040 of the and and out of respect for the university and its operations of course so so we're already

01:56:56.480 saying we want all these sides to be able to be heard i don't understand it's already a pro-diversity

01:57:01.920 of opinion it is it is and and so what i have to look at is many of the colleagues that i have who are

01:57:09.120 on the left and are hoping for restriction of free expression are really to a certain extent linguistic

01:57:16.400 imperialists that's exactly why i objected to bill c16 i said that i wasn't going to let the linguistic 0.97

01:57:23.680 imperialists take control over my voice the fact that it happened to be about transgender pronouns was 0.99

01:57:29.360 well that was just how that problem manifested itself at that period of time but that that what

01:57:34.960 did you call them linguistic imperialists that's exactly right and and these the the these ideal

01:57:40.480 ideologues on the radical left who are so good at neologisms are unbelievably good at grasping the

01:57:46.560 linguistic territory i mean the the the propagation of words like cisgendered is a perfect example of that 0.99

01:57:52.080 so yeah it's just i don't understand how they can be so against colonialism and imperialism and

01:57:59.360 then want to do that in in the sphere of language put in an authoritarian structure which can only be

01:58:06.160 abused well that's that's part of the weird see there's this weird marriage between post-modernism

01:58:13.040 and marxism right which makes no sense because you actually can't be a post-modernist and i guess you

01:58:18.160 can be a critical thinker and a marxist but you cannot be a post-modernist and a marxist at the

01:58:23.040 same time because the post-modernists hypothetically are critical of grand narratives right they don't

01:58:29.680 believe that they that they have any universal validity of course the problem with that is that

01:58:33.680 without a grand narrative you can't act but they sneak the marxism in through the back door and then

01:58:39.200 the justification i think is for these authoritarian impositions is that well it doesn't matter as long as

01:58:45.360 the right people are being hurt by them and the right people would be the people who are in

01:58:49.360 positions of power now who who have no justification for being in those positions of power right because

01:58:55.760 they don't a stable solution but you're making the assumption that what's being sought after is a

01:59:01.200 stable solution and i think that's i think that's a dangerous assumption because i think that the

01:59:07.040 university activists mean exactly what they say when they say that we should be flipping over the 0.99

01:59:13.280 patriarchy they've put no counter proposal forward throughout this right it's like they don't have 0.98

01:59:19.040 a solution uh they're not even talking about a list of forbidden topics and who's gonna adjudicate

01:59:26.880 it and what the appeals process that's always that's always done post-hoc that way you can keep the

01:59:31.440 level of fear the highest you can keep adding to the list as well yes definitely that would because

01:59:35.600 it's way better it's way better if you it's way better if you want to exercise power over people

01:59:40.720 to never let them be sure which policies they are violating and i think that what happened to

01:59:45.680 lindsay shepard is an excellent example of that so it's a it's a canonical example of that free it's

01:59:51.280 it's the uh orwellian idea freedom is the ability to say two plus two equals four and they want to

01:59:56.640 keep avoiding the ability to say two plus two is four by creating new answers and moving on you just

02:00:03.120 went through this whole process yes came up with a statement on free expression and goes on from

02:00:08.640 paragraphs and paragraphs and then the last nearly the last sentence is freedom of expression does

02:00:13.680 not trump all other rights in the university community freedom of expression can only thrive

02:00:20.480 constructively when accompanied by other rights including the equality rights of equity diversity

02:00:26.480 and inclusion there you go there you go that's right and so now you no longer have free expression

02:00:30.400 man that's the snake in the garden right there reading that yeah so there's there's this but how

02:00:34.720 i mean those those are so complicated there's individual rights and group rights there's

02:00:38.720 positive rights and negative rights and they're all in this salad with no guidance as to how you're

02:00:44.080 going to trade them off against each other it's it's like you say it just ad hoc uh as we go forward

02:00:49.520 we'll we'll yeah well it's so funny to produce an entire document talking about freedom of expression

02:00:54.400 and then to put a sentence like that in as a codicil it's and by the way also this it's like wait a second

02:00:59.840 it's not also this it's that little admixture of poison uh destroys the integrity of the entire

02:01:06.880 argument and and and to and to put all those words in there diversity okay what the hell do you mean

02:01:12.000 by that exactly inclusivity that's a word that really that's one i really have a trouble with

02:01:17.600 because it's very difficult to understand even what that means and equity equity is equality of outcome

02:01:23.760 and so that's an impossible goal to begin with because it multiplies in difficulty as you add

02:01:29.600 number of measurement dimensions right so and that's the intersectionality problem so to speak

02:01:35.520 so all right well well with the task force the interesting thing is will didn't want to sit on it

02:01:41.200 because having looked at what had happened i i suppose it was the experience at ubc that that well i just

02:01:48.320 saw big arguments happening with no no possibility of a constructive outcome and so but i was more

02:01:55.600 hopeful and i understand will's position completely right uh yes well it's easy as a faculty member to

02:02:01.840 get pulled into interminable administrative duties that have no positive outcome whatsoever in fact it's

02:02:07.200 pretty much par for the course well he makes the i mean your most compelling argument well two one look

02:02:12.800 what happened at ubc and two we're already the compromised position you mean what what more can

02:02:17.920 you want and and i get that but i i have let my name stand for nomination uh we'll see this week i

02:02:25.600 guess whether or not i i'll i don't know if i'll get voted well one of the things we should find out

02:02:31.520 and and publicize is whether any people who have a strong free speech orientation will end up on that task

02:02:37.280 force yeah i mean that that's a that's of absolutely critical importance well they'll certainly get

02:02:42.560 their work done quickly if no one from the free speech side is on it because they'll just say right

02:02:48.160 but maybe they'll have to create a list of their own about what can't be talked about

02:02:52.000 right who knows where that will go one one thing that strikes me though is just the disregard for

02:02:57.760 history uh people who uh are marginalized or would be considered in the marginalized group if we look at

02:03:05.040 how did they get the rights that they have today right how did that happen it was because of free

02:03:12.640 expression right actually the easy case to make for free speech is left-wing it's like powerful people

02:03:19.840 don't need their free speech protected they're powerful they're rich they can say whatever the

02:03:24.080 hell they want it's people who are precisely marginalized and oppressed who need all the protection of

02:03:29.520 the law of course they want to weight it against saying yes we want to have people without power to 0.80

02:03:34.640 have the freedom of expression but let's make this a quicker process by making sure those that have

02:03:38.960 power can't speak whoever those who have power is right well that's that's the issue not to

02:03:44.000 well you know you could say well wouldn't it be wonderful if those who had unfair power

02:03:47.920 weren't allowed to speak it's like well maybe it would be wonderful but who the hell is going to

02:03:52.080 decide who has power and who has unfair power like the devil's in the details there so the only fair

02:03:59.280 application of this principle is to let everybody have equal opportunity right not equal outcome by

02:04:05.600 the way well that's the free market solution right because you can't determine these by central fiat

02:04:11.360 because it's technically impossible which is actually something post-modernists should know because

02:04:15.760 that's actually one of the logical consequences of their philosophy right things are too complicated

02:04:20.160 to decide by fiat in some sense but all right is there anything else that you guys want to say

02:04:25.920 that that that you've observed as a consequence of this lindsay shepherd affair or that or that

02:04:31.520 you're hopeful about or pessimistic about what what what's the how do we solve this just the way

02:04:37.920 we're solving it this is the way to solve it is to is to have i think this is a textbook case of the

02:04:44.480 utility of free speech shepherd was able to make her case publicly there's been a huge debate about it

02:04:50.160 there's been some moves made on the part of the university that look positive we've got ample opportunity

02:04:55.200 everyone has ample opportunity to have their voice heard you know this video we're making tonight

02:04:59.200 will probably be watched by 150 000 people it's like and we had a perfectly reasonable discussion

02:05:04.960 you know i think we gave credit where credit was due with regards to this document and and are jointly

02:05:11.120 hopeful that something positive will come of it and made some pointed critiques about about what it

02:05:16.880 does contain and what it doesn't but we don't want to underestimate the utility of doing these things

02:05:21.840 it's useful and i think the fact that you guys have this little cabal of people at wilfrid laurier

02:05:26.480 who are willing to speak i was shocked when when you wrote that op-ed and when the toronto star

02:05:32.400 published it i mean nothing like that from an academic happened in relationship to me last year and

02:05:38.480 bill c16 we've seen such uniformity of outcry about this from all the newspapers globe star sun which

02:05:47.520 which which really just shows you the disconnect between what is happening in the academy and what

02:05:52.400 is right it's a disconnect of staggering magnitude people outside the academy say well how can you

02:05:58.000 believe that yeah what they've been saying is really this happened this actually happened that's the

02:06:04.720 universal response and and you know the response on the campuses is well yeah it happened it's and we

02:06:11.120 were right i have a solution i have a solution i mean it's not a solution but it's i don't i call it

02:06:18.160 an inoculant actually so yes let's get the laurier statement for freedom of expression at our university

02:06:24.480 and similar statements at all universities why the federal government is not tying funding to this i know

02:06:29.760 that the conservatives mentioned suggestion that i made to the conservatives well this is this is what

02:06:34.000 needs to happen but in addition to that i think that young people and and parents of young people

02:06:39.600 need to look at what's happening and they need to start educating their their kids at home and they

02:06:44.640 need to start and i've written several op-eds where i've said people ask me what is the solution i say

02:06:51.520 start watching the videos of jordan peterson start watching the videos uh there's a jonathan height

02:06:57.520 jonathan height you bet look into the heterodox academy they know what they're doing who who definitely

02:07:03.440 are scholars of repute the they they are moderate in the like incredibly civil uh there are also some

02:07:10.720 people outside of academia there's a um a fantastic youtuber uh my name is josephine she's a canadian

02:07:17.600 political science student who is at u of t moderate really well spoken articulating classical liberal ideas

02:07:25.200 my name is josephine okay yeah okay i'll have to remember her so another she's actually been at the

02:07:29.920 reason that i know she knows you she was at one of your rallies i saw it in a video there she is in

02:07:34.000 the background um there another uh young lady uh sorry woman who is her name is roaming millennial 1.00

02:07:41.280 yeah i know roaming millennial i've been on her show oh yeah yeah yeah you bet you bet yeah and she's a 1.00

02:07:46.960 tough cookie that girl you bet and i would say start watching these people yeah yeah well the young

02:07:52.480 people are watching them in droves you know she has a big following roaming millennial and i'm grateful for

02:07:56.880 that because in fact when these students go into the university classroom if they choose to go into

02:08:01.440 the arts or the humanities they're going to go in with knowledge where they can i realize it's tough

02:08:06.800 to challenge a professor but start a facebook group and say hey did you know that there are other ideas

02:08:12.560 too do you know that there's an opposite side to this debate well we should all we could also encourage

02:08:17.600 parents who might be listening or or students thinking about going to university who might be listening

02:08:22.240 to this is that check to see where the university stands on free speech and if they dampen down their

02:08:27.600 support for free speech and free inquiry with statements about diversity inclusivity and equity

02:08:33.440 then go somewhere else it's a worry another uh thing and this is just beginning in canada uh there we

02:08:40.160 have a society for academic freedom and scholarship that professors can join if if a sorry if a professor

02:08:46.800 has joined the society for academic freedom and scholarship you can be pretty sure they are going

02:08:52.080 to be wanting to give you both sides of the story so that's not a bad check either yeah yeah where do

02:08:57.760 they have to do their research though the students to due diligence well that's good it'll educate them

02:09:03.200 right i mean lindsey shepherd definitely got educated over the last two months they should just give 1.00

02:09:07.600 her the degree yeah yeah no kidding no kidding she's got her phd thesis in communication pretty

02:09:13.600 well demonstrated there's an auto ethnography for you yeah i caused an international scandal by just

02:09:20.400 revealing what had actually happened yeah all right all right good my pleasure thank you guys for coming

02:09:26.960 and also for it's not common for faculty members well to talk to me first of all like this certainly not

02:09:34.240 on record and it's certainly not common for them to be writing and speaking openly about such issues so

02:09:39.280 i don't know what the hell got into you guys it's really good that's happening at wilfrid laurier too

02:09:44.800 we realize we're finished now by being associated with you yeah yeah yeah i i said uh well it's good

02:09:50.480 good of you to offer yourself on the sacrificial altar i you've got to look your kids in the eye

02:09:55.680 eventually yeah and uh how are you going to say that you need to stand up for truth

02:10:01.120 truth if you actually don't stand up for truth that is a problem yeah yeah all right guys

02:10:17.040 so

02:10:21.040 so

02:10:31.680 so

02:10:35.040 you

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - January 04, 2018

Deconstruction： The Lindsay Shepherd Affair

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