The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

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00:00:15.500 Hey everyone, real quick before you skip,

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00:01:07.520 Welcome to the Jordan B. Peterson podcast.

00:01:20.080 This is episode 7, a conversation with author Greg Hurwitz.

00:01:25.280 Greg has written 17 novels, including his most recent work, The Nowhere Man.

00:01:30.200 He has written screenplays for many of the major studios,

00:01:32.900 and written, developed, and produced television for various networks.

00:01:38.400 He is a New York Times best-selling comic book writer,

00:01:41.040 having penned stories for both Marvel and DC.

00:01:44.260 He has also published numerous academic articles on Shakespeare,

00:01:47.740 taught fiction writing in the USC English Department,

00:01:50.540 and guest lectured for UCLA and for Harvard in the United States and internationally.

00:01:55.060 You can support this podcast by donating to Dr. Jordan B. Peterson's Patreon account

00:02:02.400 by searching Jordan Peterson Patreon.

00:02:08.260 Dr. Peterson's self-development programs, self-authoring, are available at self-authoring.com.

00:02:15.020 All right, it's looking good.

00:02:18.820 Excellent.

00:02:19.180 So I'm here today with Greg Hurwitz,

00:02:21.440 who's a novelist and a screenwriter and a comic book writer

00:02:25.060 and a variety of other things as well.

00:02:27.360 And we're going to talk a little bit about his latest book,

00:02:30.860 The Nowhere Man, and then we're going to talk to him about writing more generally.

00:02:34.900 And that's the plan anyways.

00:02:36.520 So how are you doing, Greg?

00:02:38.540 I'm doing well, thank you.

00:02:40.300 So why don't you start by telling us a little bit about your new book

00:02:43.960 and then about who you are?

00:02:47.160 Well, my new book, I started a new series with my last book.

00:02:51.540 And usually I write standalone thrillers.

00:02:54.000 But my last book was based on,

00:02:56.120 I've sort of done a lot of really dumb things in the name of research over the years.

00:03:01.620 So I've gone undercover in mind-control cults.

00:03:03.960 I've gone up and stunned airplanes.

00:03:05.640 I've snuck on a demolition range of Navy SEALs and blown up cars.

00:03:09.860 And one of the things that kept coming up

00:03:12.440 when I dealt with a lot of the Spec Ops guys

00:03:14.280 were how these off-the-books programs were implemented over the years.

00:03:19.520 The sort of history beneath the history that we're all aware of.

00:03:22.700 And I got really interested in this.

00:03:24.240 And I thought about a character

00:03:25.340 who was taken out of foster homes at the age of 12.

00:03:30.460 This is a program called the Orphan Program.

00:03:32.660 And basically raised up to be assassins.

00:03:35.600 To be, it's their full training, it's their full life.

00:03:38.600 And that's Orphan X.

00:03:39.540 That's the first book in the series.

00:03:40.920 And so in the second book,

00:03:41.980 the one that's just come out called The Nowhere Man,

00:03:44.360 this assassin is taken by somebody who doesn't know who he is,

00:03:49.800 but wants something from him.

00:03:51.100 And he's taken off and spirited off,

00:03:52.920 kidnapped to this remote chateau.

00:03:55.580 He doesn't know where it is.

00:03:57.100 And the people don't know,

00:03:58.740 have no idea what his real identity is or who he is.

00:04:01.240 And they think that he's trapped in there with them.

00:04:04.420 And in fact, they're trapped in there with him.

00:04:06.440 And they're soon going to realize

00:04:07.460 that they have a major problem on their hands.

00:04:09.820 And so it's the second in the folding out of this new character.

00:04:12.640 His name is Evan Smoke.

00:04:15.320 So this is the first time that you've written a series.

00:04:17.840 No, it's the second time you've written a series.

00:04:19.580 Is that right?

00:04:20.080 Yeah, I wrote a series early in my career.

00:04:23.560 And then I went about nine books with standalones.

00:04:27.400 And then I returned to it.

00:04:29.000 And part of that is it takes so long.

00:04:31.440 I mean, the majority of my waking hours,

00:04:33.540 I'm spending inside a manuscript and with a character.

00:04:36.100 Like I spend more time with my characters who are fictional

00:04:38.700 than I do with my wife and kids.

00:04:41.040 And so it took me a lot of years to find the characters.

00:04:45.900 They're less complicated,

00:04:47.680 which is actually one of the themes of the books

00:04:51.320 or the ways in which the complications

00:04:55.600 that arise from intimacy.

00:04:56.840 Because my character was raised with a veil of perfection.

00:05:02.640 You know, a lot of the notions that I play with with him,

00:05:04.900 I came to when I was writing on Batman.

00:05:07.740 I wrote Batman comics for a couple of years.

00:05:09.520 And there were some notions in there that interested me.

00:05:11.420 And one of them was the balance

00:05:14.120 between perfection and intimacy.

00:05:15.760 That was my main focus with Batman.

00:05:18.120 Because part of the reason why I like Batman so much is,

00:05:21.400 you know, he doesn't have a magic ring like Green Lantern.

00:05:23.760 He can't fly like Superman.

00:05:25.200 He's just a human who represents the pinnacle

00:05:27.780 of what can be accomplished through sheer discipline.

00:05:30.940 But part of why that works is his parents are dead.

00:05:33.800 He's not married.

00:05:34.820 He has no kids.

00:05:35.640 He lives up in Wayne Manor.

00:05:38.000 And he's completely undisturbed by everyone and everything

00:05:40.840 so he can hone it.

00:05:41.960 And the more that you let people into your life

00:05:44.000 and the more that you allow intimacy in your life,

00:05:45.980 the more complications come that sort of detract

00:05:49.160 from this previous notion of perfection.

00:05:51.300 Okay, so I've got a question about that.

00:05:54.760 Okay.

00:05:57.220 That seems to me to reflect in some sense the problem,

00:06:00.960 maybe the different problems

00:06:02.320 or maybe the different orientation of men and women.

00:06:06.200 So it's possible for men to,

00:06:11.160 and I think many men can do this too,

00:06:13.380 is to sacrifice everything, including intimacy,

00:06:16.020 to become really good at one thing.

00:06:18.240 Whereas women, as far as I can tell,

00:06:20.220 and of course this is a broad generalization

00:06:22.000 and one that will undoubtedly get me in trouble.

00:06:25.780 You never get in trouble, George.

00:06:27.240 No, no, no, no, I know.

00:06:28.660 Women are, I think, more concerned with intimacy

00:06:32.200 and with relationship.

00:06:34.280 And that's an interesting dichotomy

00:06:36.440 that you established between those two.

00:06:39.220 And so why, you said that intimacy detracts from perfection

00:06:44.980 because it's sort of, it spreads you out in the world.

00:06:47.780 Why did you come across that particular paradox?

00:06:50.920 Why do you think that one fascinates you?

00:06:52.440 Well, I think that part of it is,

00:06:57.020 is I'm hyper disciplined.

00:07:00.140 And one of the things that I noticed is,

00:07:01.660 and I think that's the thing,

00:07:02.560 when you find a character who you need to live with

00:07:04.480 more than you do with your family,

00:07:06.220 you have to find something at the heart of them

00:07:08.600 that's uniquely compelling.

00:07:10.020 And for me, I think I have,

00:07:11.520 I have a strong perfectionist drive.

00:07:13.880 And as I've got, when I was younger,

00:07:15.680 it served me well, right?

00:07:17.040 A lot of the traits that we have

00:07:19.320 or negative traits that might be survival instincts

00:07:21.880 that got us through a key period of our life,

00:07:24.420 they're easy to discard when they're not helpful, right?

00:07:28.820 So like, if you can have a bit of a temper,

00:07:30.720 it's easy to get rid of it.

00:07:31.720 The ones that are really hard are adaptive,

00:07:33.960 you know, qualities that we have

00:07:35.620 that have gotten us very, very far,

00:07:37.780 but now we're starting to interfere with our lives.

00:07:40.500 And so one of the things that I noticed

00:07:41.620 is that my drive for severe discipline and perfection

00:07:44.600 is tough when you're married,

00:07:47.520 when you have, you know, a wife,

00:07:49.240 when you have two kids,

00:07:50.060 when you have a dog if you're singularly focused,

00:07:52.880 but it's also not something that the answer

00:07:54.960 is to just give up completely.

00:07:57.220 You know, so it's trying to find a balance

00:07:59.080 of maintaining the value and the drive

00:08:02.040 and the discipline that's necessary

00:08:03.180 to be a novelist and screenwriter

00:08:04.820 and comic book writer

00:08:05.740 and also to exhibit discipline

00:08:08.200 in other areas of my life

00:08:09.480 while also, you know,

00:08:11.380 allowing for sort of the complications

00:08:15.920 that come with intimacy.

00:08:16.800 And so with Evan, Smoke, with my main character,

00:08:20.240 for me, the whole series coalesces

00:08:21.880 around a certain exchange that he has,

00:08:25.060 which is, you know,

00:08:26.760 one of the things that I did

00:08:28.040 when I first was thinking about him being pulled out,

00:08:30.280 he's this broke foster kid,

00:08:31.580 he's pulled out of the projects

00:08:32.480 of East Baltimore at the age of 12,

00:08:33.960 and he's raised only by a handler.

00:08:35.840 No one even knows who he is,

00:08:36.980 and his co-name's Orphan X.

00:08:38.540 And I thought, instead of making this

00:08:39.840 the usual sobby backstory,

00:08:42.640 what if that handler

00:08:43.500 was a really fundamentally good man

00:08:45.740 and became like a father figure

00:08:47.240 and actually loved him?

00:08:48.680 And at one point,

00:08:50.280 Jack Johns, who's his handler,

00:08:51.800 tells him the heart when he's a kid.

00:08:53.980 He says, the hard part

00:08:54.920 is not going to be making you a killer.

00:08:56.380 The hard part is going to be keeping you human.

00:08:58.720 And for Evan,

00:08:59.540 the thing that stuck in my head was

00:09:00.940 it would be so much easier

00:09:02.180 if he was just purely an assassin,

00:09:04.620 if his moral compass was never broken.

00:09:07.020 But because of the way that he was raised,

00:09:10.440 he, at a certain point,

00:09:11.920 the ambiguities of committing

00:09:13.320 these assassinations

00:09:14.440 in different territories

00:09:15.680 where we're not supposed to be

00:09:16.720 and he has limited information,

00:09:18.480 the moral ambiguities become too much

00:09:20.400 and he leaves and becomes

00:09:21.320 sort of a pro bono assassin

00:09:22.620 for people in desperate need.

00:09:24.900 Like, that's where we meet him

00:09:26.020 in the series.

00:09:27.200 And it's only because Jack

00:09:28.680 gave him a human connection

00:09:30.340 that opened up the complexities

00:09:32.400 that make this complicated for him.

00:09:34.920 You know, when I was writing

00:09:35.520 The Punisher,

00:09:36.060 who's a Marvel character,

00:09:37.840 that's not hard.

00:09:38.700 The Punisher's family's all dead.

00:09:40.640 He just wants to kill everybody.

00:09:42.040 He wants to punish everybody.

00:09:43.680 With Evan,

00:09:44.200 there's this thing at the heart of it

00:09:45.400 that, like,

00:09:45.760 he still has to function

00:09:47.100 with this humanity

00:09:48.720 that was given to him

00:09:49.860 from his father figure.

00:09:52.120 Yeah.

00:09:53.220 I was thinking of the Batman movie

00:09:55.980 with Heath Ledger

00:09:56.920 and one of the things

00:09:58.180 that happens in that movie

00:09:59.280 is that the Joker

00:10:00.600 accuses Batman

00:10:01.560 of being exactly the same

00:10:02.880 as he is fundamentally.

00:10:04.060 Like, that they're,

00:10:05.340 you could say,

00:10:05.920 opposite sides of the same coin

00:10:07.560 or maybe even closer than that.

00:10:09.520 And it seems to me

00:10:11.260 that there's something

00:10:11.860 in what you're saying

00:10:12.700 that mitigates against

00:10:14.960 the deadly danger

00:10:16.400 or maybe even,

00:10:17.540 would you call it

00:10:18.280 a psychopathic intensity

00:10:19.620 of single-mindedness?

00:10:21.060 Because one question

00:10:22.020 you might ask yourself

00:10:22.960 is that if intimacy

00:10:25.100 interferes with perfection,

00:10:26.780 then why bother with it?

00:10:30.080 I mean, I...

00:10:30.440 Right.

00:10:31.140 And, well,

00:10:31.560 and also, like,

00:10:32.280 how do we widen out

00:10:33.140 the definition of perfection?

00:10:34.740 It's like, okay,

00:10:35.440 so if you take Bruce Wayne

00:10:37.360 to his logical end

00:10:38.520 and he's, you know,

00:10:40.060 killed a lot of bad guys

00:10:41.360 and maintained

00:10:42.020 physical perfection

00:10:43.780 and dies alone

00:10:46.740 in his manner,

00:10:47.860 is that actually perfection?

00:10:49.660 Like, you have to broaden

00:10:50.600 out the definition

00:10:51.860 of what you apply perfection to.

00:10:53.320 Well, I didn't do as good a job

00:10:55.880 of laying out that dichotomy

00:10:57.400 in my earlier question

00:10:58.380 as I might have,

00:10:59.060 but one of the things

00:11:00.080 you mentioned

00:11:01.520 was that it was his presupposition

00:11:04.580 that men were after perfection

00:11:06.000 and women were after wholeness.

00:11:08.660 Right.

00:11:09.240 That's a more inclusive...

00:11:11.000 The issue with perfection

00:11:12.400 is that it's single-minded, right,

00:11:14.020 and it only focuses on,

00:11:15.260 let's say, one thing,

00:11:16.880 whereas wholeness

00:11:17.700 seems to be something

00:11:18.440 more like the balance

00:11:19.480 between a variety

00:11:21.060 of positive

00:11:23.880 and valuable things,

00:11:25.540 and you can't be perfect

00:11:27.400 at a variety

00:11:28.200 of useful and balanced

00:11:30.300 or valuable and balanced things.

00:11:31.980 You have to settle

00:11:32.700 for maybe B-plus

00:11:34.000 at a variety of them,

00:11:35.540 but the question is,

00:11:36.720 is the totality

00:11:37.620 then more valuable

00:11:39.060 than perfection

00:11:39.820 along one axis?

00:11:41.540 And I suppose

00:11:42.200 it depends on the situation,

00:11:43.440 but obviously

00:11:44.960 that's something

00:11:45.900 that you're continually

00:11:46.980 toying with,

00:11:47.800 and you said

00:11:48.240 it's because it reflects

00:11:49.340 a similar situation

00:11:50.600 in your own life

00:11:51.420 and with your own character.

00:11:54.280 So you've managed

00:11:55.920 to integrate intimacy

00:11:57.620 into your life,

00:11:58.580 and so what's been

00:11:59.340 the advantage to that?

00:12:02.500 Well, the advantage

00:12:03.640 is it's,

00:12:05.200 I mean,

00:12:05.740 a lot of the things

00:12:07.560 that give,

00:12:08.600 that ultimately give,

00:12:10.100 I think,

00:12:10.660 pleasure and meaning

00:12:11.780 to life

00:12:12.360 come from intimacy.

00:12:14.120 You know,

00:12:14.400 it's like there's

00:12:15.260 the old song

00:12:15.820 that people say

00:12:16.560 when people die.

00:12:18.120 It's rare

00:12:18.640 that they're going to say,

00:12:19.360 gosh, I wish I worked more,

00:12:21.360 you know,

00:12:21.540 regardless of what the work is

00:12:22.560 versus spending time

00:12:23.420 with your family

00:12:24.300 and with your friends.

00:12:25.340 And it's like,

00:12:25.780 I've noticed increasingly

00:12:26.820 as I get older,

00:12:27.840 there's a shift

00:12:28.960 in priorities and values,

00:12:30.260 but it still is one

00:12:31.860 that's,

00:12:32.340 it's harder for me

00:12:33.860 at times

00:12:34.520 because I get,

00:12:35.360 I can get single-minded.

00:12:36.620 I mean,

00:12:36.780 I can get hypomanic

00:12:38.200 when I'm writing.

00:12:38.840 I write generally

00:12:39.940 10 hours a day,

00:12:41.200 but I've written

00:12:41.820 as much as

00:12:42.500 23 hours straight,

00:12:44.260 you know,

00:12:44.520 when I was on a TV show

00:12:45.520 that was at risk

00:12:46.120 of shutting down

00:12:46.920 and we needed a script

00:12:49.560 and there's just

00:12:50.300 not a choice for it.

00:12:51.280 So I can get

00:12:51.820 incredibly focused,

00:12:53.120 but the more focus

00:12:54.360 that I get with writing,

00:12:55.800 one of the things

00:12:56.180 that you're doing

00:12:56.740 with writing

00:12:57.300 when you're in a venture

00:12:58.180 that's difficult

00:12:58.900 is you have

00:13:00.300 a very high

00:13:01.040 error recognition

00:13:02.020 alarm system,

00:13:04.820 right?

00:13:05.080 That's cliched,

00:13:06.020 that's not going to work,

00:13:06.840 that's been seen before.

00:13:07.740 You want to do

00:13:08.260 something that's new

00:13:09.000 and if you're in a field

00:13:09.760 that's hard,

00:13:10.320 that's turned up

00:13:10.920 really high.

00:13:11.980 Well,

00:13:12.220 that can make living

00:13:13.000 with you really difficult

00:13:14.020 or interacting

00:13:14.640 with other people.

00:13:15.560 It's very effective

00:13:16.160 for work to say,

00:13:17.660 how do I make

00:13:18.120 everything better?

00:13:19.200 What's everything

00:13:19.760 that's wrong with this?

00:13:20.820 It's sort of an approach

00:13:21.660 to a manuscript,

00:13:22.800 but it doesn't work

00:13:24.040 as well if you have

00:13:24.840 a two-year-old

00:13:25.320 or a five-year-old

00:13:26.040 at home

00:13:26.420 or you're trying

00:13:26.940 to deal with something else

00:13:28.500 and you can also

00:13:29.180 lose perspective.

00:13:30.340 So there's a single-mindedness

00:13:32.500 to the range of perfection

00:13:34.000 that you can lose

00:13:34.880 things at the periphery.

00:13:36.660 So like having some B pluses

00:13:38.260 in other arenas

00:13:39.060 I think are better.

00:13:40.280 I mean,

00:13:40.440 that's one of the things

00:13:41.040 what relationships

00:13:41.760 are good for

00:13:42.480 is literally providing

00:13:43.720 perspective.

00:13:44.640 Like we always say that.

00:13:46.300 You know,

00:13:46.560 my friend gave me

00:13:47.280 a good perspective

00:13:47.900 but it's like

00:13:48.500 there's somebody

00:13:49.020 literally outside you

00:13:50.460 looking at you

00:13:51.340 aware of what

00:13:52.540 your blind spots are,

00:13:53.700 aware of the things

00:13:54.520 that you're doing wrong

00:13:55.280 but we just can't see.

00:13:57.020 And that's one of the ways

00:13:57.660 intimacy is immensely useful

00:13:59.560 is it's like

00:14:00.240 you can be on perfection

00:14:01.240 and just tail off

00:14:02.100 into the wilderness

00:14:02.680 and be gone

00:14:03.500 if you don't have

00:14:04.180 other people looking at you

00:14:05.220 and keeping you human.

00:14:08.280 You know,

00:14:08.460 and so it's...

00:14:09.360 Right,

00:14:09.920 right.

00:14:10.260 Well,

00:14:10.680 that's actually

00:14:11.700 one of the arguments

00:14:12.480 that I've been making up here

00:14:13.680 as you know

00:14:14.220 for the necessity

00:14:15.560 of freedom of speech

00:14:16.640 is that

00:14:17.120 it isn't so much

00:14:19.320 that you get to say

00:14:20.420 what you think

00:14:21.340 and be right

00:14:22.060 it's that you get

00:14:23.220 to say what you think

00:14:24.560 and be exposed

00:14:25.480 to the corrective views

00:14:26.720 of other people.

00:14:28.340 Absolutely.

00:14:28.740 Yeah,

00:14:29.480 they have the same

00:14:30.460 responsibility and right

00:14:32.660 with regards

00:14:33.200 to their own speech.

00:14:34.140 They have to say

00:14:34.660 what they think

00:14:35.200 but they have to be

00:14:36.060 open to corrective

00:14:38.300 input from other people.

00:14:41.720 Well,

00:14:42.020 and it's impossible

00:14:44.620 like if we want to evolve

00:14:46.320 into a society

00:14:47.280 where if you misspeak

00:14:48.740 like for instance

00:14:50.140 there was a

00:14:50.860 the Saturday Night Live

00:14:51.980 writer who made

00:14:53.560 a tweet

00:14:54.840 that was denigrating

00:14:56.360 Barron Trump,

00:14:57.400 right?

00:14:57.660 And she ultimately

00:14:59.460 regretted it,

00:15:00.440 right?

00:15:00.700 And so she apologized.

00:15:01.920 Doesn't matter.

00:15:02.920 Saturday Night Live

00:15:03.460 kind of suspended

00:15:05.640 or either suspended her

00:15:06.700 or let her go.

00:15:07.560 Suspended her indefinitely.

00:15:08.840 And so there's this

00:15:09.340 interesting question of like

00:15:10.380 if you're a comedian

00:15:11.380 and your job is to be funny

00:15:12.880 being funny

00:15:13.580 revolves on being irreverent

00:15:15.840 and on being surprising.

00:15:16.940 You're the court jester

00:15:17.740 in a certain way.

00:15:18.860 You have to go too far

00:15:20.100 sometimes

00:15:20.720 in order to do

00:15:21.820 your job properly.

00:15:23.260 And maybe that's

00:15:23.900 three times out of ten.

00:15:25.340 So she said something

00:15:26.160 that she believed

00:15:27.040 that she went too far

00:15:28.080 and she apologized

00:15:28.820 for us.

00:15:29.680 And we've gotten

00:15:30.200 in this place

00:15:30.700 that people don't

00:15:31.380 accept apologies anymore.

00:15:32.620 It's not good enough.

00:15:33.680 I think it's worse actually.

00:15:34.940 I think it looks to me

00:15:36.300 like we've got to a place

00:15:38.500 where if you

00:15:39.180 if you make an apology

00:15:40.600 people regard that

00:15:42.000 as

00:15:42.500 final proof

00:15:44.480 of your guilt.

00:15:46.040 It's not.

00:15:46.240 Right.

00:15:46.500 Which then

00:15:46.900 yeah and then

00:15:48.100 it encourages

00:15:48.680 a lack of insight

00:15:49.820 and apology

00:15:50.360 from people

00:15:50.940 who increasingly

00:15:51.540 rise in power.

00:15:52.980 But the thing for me

00:15:53.760 that's so interesting

00:15:54.400 is it's like

00:15:54.860 when I write

00:15:55.500 I give myself

00:15:56.560 permission to write

00:15:57.460 a vomit draft

00:15:58.300 of a book.

00:15:59.320 I talk to so many

00:16:00.120 aspiring writers

00:16:00.900 who say

00:16:01.320 I sit down

00:16:02.280 and I just lock up.

00:16:03.380 I write a paragraph

00:16:04.000 and then I don't know

00:16:04.640 what to do.

00:16:05.080 I have conversation

00:16:05.860 after conversation

00:16:06.560 with people

00:16:07.040 and I say

00:16:07.780 don't be afraid

00:16:08.500 to make mistakes

00:16:09.140 and fail.

00:16:09.780 You cannot fix

00:16:10.620 a blank page.

00:16:12.020 Get something down.

00:16:13.680 I call it

00:16:14.140 the vomit draft.

00:16:15.360 Yeah.

00:16:15.800 And then you can fix it.

00:16:17.900 And if we're losing

00:16:19.040 that ability in speech

00:16:20.280 like everyone

00:16:20.920 has to speak

00:16:21.620 like Winston Churchill

00:16:22.620 on first pass

00:16:23.840 everyone has to have

00:16:24.440 perfectly constructed

00:16:25.620 sentences

00:16:26.760 perfectly regarded

00:16:27.820 thought

00:16:28.360 we're going to lose

00:16:29.540 our ability

00:16:30.200 to interact

00:16:31.540 in ways that are meaningful

00:16:32.680 and just stop

00:16:33.520 and pause

00:16:34.040 and say you're right

00:16:34.780 that did go too far

00:16:36.220 let me back off.

00:16:37.540 Yeah well

00:16:37.800 I tell my students

00:16:38.800 my graduate students

00:16:40.480 and my undergraduates

00:16:42.180 as well

00:16:42.640 to write a really bad

00:16:44.260 first draft

00:16:45.160 and I also tell them

00:16:47.140 you can't play around

00:16:48.060 with that

00:16:48.540 like you can't

00:16:49.540 pretend that you're

00:16:50.340 going to write

00:16:50.940 a really bad

00:16:51.560 first draft

00:16:52.180 and then

00:16:52.620 you know

00:16:55.420 break the rules

00:16:56.240 of that game

00:16:56.900 and try to write

00:16:58.520 something good anyways

00:16:59.580 because that doesn't work

00:17:00.640 it doesn't free you up

00:17:01.640 and you know

00:17:02.280 I tell them

00:17:02.800 at the same time

00:17:04.520 if they're trying

00:17:05.460 to write a 2,000 word essay

00:17:06.900 to write a really bad

00:17:07.960 3,000 word essay

00:17:09.360 or 4,000 word essay

00:17:10.640 so that they can feel

00:17:11.800 comfortable

00:17:13.260 in throwing away

00:17:14.160 50% of it

00:17:15.260 and

00:17:15.640 it's also amazing

00:17:16.840 how you get to good

00:17:18.180 through that

00:17:18.900 like a lot of times

00:17:19.580 I sit down

00:17:20.300 you know

00:17:21.560 and

00:17:22.460 if I'm not feeling it

00:17:24.520 and if I just start

00:17:25.460 writing

00:17:25.920 at a certain point

00:17:26.660 it's sort of like

00:17:27.140 if you set

00:17:27.740 I always tell

00:17:28.300 you know

00:17:29.020 younger writers

00:17:30.120 set time

00:17:31.620 that you make

00:17:32.200 sacrosanct

00:17:32.980 you know

00:17:33.260 that is above all else

00:17:34.580 that you have to write

00:17:35.600 so even if it's an hour

00:17:36.440 twice a week

00:17:37.220 at a certain point

00:17:37.820 you're going to hit

00:17:38.460 the hour mark

00:17:39.580 and realize that

00:17:40.280 you're at an hour and a half

00:17:41.200 you're at an hour

00:17:41.740 and 45 minutes

00:17:42.560 it leads to more

00:17:43.620 and so if you're willing

00:17:45.000 to write into

00:17:46.160 mistakes and errors

00:17:47.760 and not be overly concerned

00:17:49.100 with

00:17:49.640 you know

00:17:50.420 if everything

00:17:51.700 isn't impeccably detailed

00:17:53.080 you will get to stuff

00:17:54.820 that's better

00:17:55.400 at a certain point

00:17:56.140 you'll start doing

00:17:56.860 real writing

00:17:57.520 the language

00:17:58.040 will start to actually

00:17:58.920 be alive

00:17:59.740 as opposed to dead

00:18:00.780 it's a way to access it

00:18:02.440 it's like a warm up

00:18:03.260 it's jogging a warm up

00:18:04.560 while I'm on a track

00:18:05.580 before you sprint

00:18:06.780 and we need to be able

00:18:08.060 to have that

00:18:08.800 you know

00:18:09.160 and it's

00:18:09.680 well you also said

00:18:10.840 that you have to push yourself

00:18:12.180 out to the place

00:18:13.000 where you're actually

00:18:13.660 making errors

00:18:14.440 you were talking

00:18:15.080 about comedians

00:18:15.920 and it seems to me

00:18:17.320 that that's

00:18:17.880 if you're exploring

00:18:19.440 a set of new ideas

00:18:20.480 instead of just

00:18:21.160 writing down

00:18:21.720 what you already know

00:18:22.760 which would sort of be

00:18:24.040 like imitating yourself

00:18:25.140 or parodying yourself

00:18:26.360 you have to push yourself

00:18:28.140 past what you already know

00:18:29.560 and if you're not doing that

00:18:31.700 if you're doing that

00:18:32.900 you're going to make mistakes

00:18:33.980 and if you're not doing that

00:18:35.300 then you're not going to be

00:18:36.300 doing something

00:18:36.780 that's creative

00:18:37.340 and interesting

00:18:37.980 and so

00:18:38.400 there is some kind of

00:18:40.500 excuse me

00:18:42.140 there is some kind of

00:18:43.940 optimal ratio

00:18:45.480 of error

00:18:46.860 to creative thought

00:18:48.060 I remember

00:18:49.380 there was a good study done

00:18:51.100 about relationships

00:18:52.960 and their longevity

00:18:55.360 and one question might be

00:18:57.380 how many positive interactions

00:19:00.480 compared to negative interactions

00:19:02.580 do you have to have

00:19:03.880 in order for a relationship

00:19:04.980 to maintain itself

00:19:06.480 stably across time

00:19:07.760 and you'd think

00:19:08.900 well

00:19:09.200 the higher

00:19:10.460 the positive

00:19:11.140 to the negative

00:19:11.960 the better

00:19:12.480 but that isn't

00:19:13.540 how it turned out

00:19:14.520 it turned out that

00:19:15.520 five positive

00:19:17.280 to one negative interactions

00:19:18.900 roughly speaking

00:19:19.780 was the lower bound

00:19:21.000 if it got

00:19:22.400 if the negative

00:19:23.200 if the ratio

00:19:23.960 got lower than that

00:19:24.980 then people got unhappy

00:19:26.800 and the relationship

00:19:27.580 degenerated

00:19:28.920 but if it got above

00:19:30.520 eleven positive interactions

00:19:32.480 to one negative interaction

00:19:35.040 it also became unstable

00:19:36.480 and I think the reason

00:19:38.080 for that is that

00:19:38.940 there's no corrective information

00:19:41.100 you talk about

00:19:42.100 well and contentment

00:19:43.140 is dead

00:19:43.700 yeah that's a tough one

00:19:48.220 for people to grasp

00:19:49.060 because they often

00:19:49.740 don't get to contentment

00:19:50.800 but is it contentment

00:19:52.200 exactly

00:19:52.640 or is it stasis

00:19:53.720 or

00:19:54.040 it's also

00:19:55.600 there's something horrific

00:19:56.660 about only seeing

00:19:57.640 the positive reflected

00:19:58.680 back to you

00:19:59.480 it's

00:20:00.020 I think you just start

00:20:01.460 to take things

00:20:02.100 for granted

00:20:02.700 I always say

00:20:05.340 about books

00:20:06.000 it's like

00:20:06.360 when I'm writing

00:20:07.140 any project

00:20:08.000 if there's not

00:20:08.740 a certain point

00:20:09.400 that I'm scared

00:20:10.260 that I can't pull it off

00:20:11.540 I haven't chosen

00:20:12.840 the right project

00:20:13.760 I mean

00:20:14.580 and I'm

00:20:15.100 I don't know

00:20:15.640 18 novels in

00:20:16.780 I mean

00:20:16.960 I've written 10 scripts

00:20:17.980 I've written

00:20:18.440 80 comics

00:20:19.560 and part of that

00:20:21.920 is how to change things up

00:20:23.120 and this whole notion

00:20:23.880 that we're talking about

00:20:24.880 with this character

00:20:26.320 with Evan Smoke

00:20:27.080 started with that

00:20:28.420 I was like

00:20:28.940 I was thinking about

00:20:29.700 writing this

00:20:30.380 ultra badass

00:20:31.580 assassin character

00:20:32.720 it's a thriller

00:20:33.840 it deals with other themes

00:20:35.040 some of which

00:20:35.520 we can get into

00:20:36.200 but part of what

00:20:37.100 I thought about was

00:20:38.000 you know

00:20:38.580 what we never see

00:20:39.600 we never see

00:20:40.540 James Bond go home

00:20:41.760 we never see

00:20:42.920 Jason Bourne

00:20:43.720 end a badass mission

00:20:44.980 he's bleeding in his arm

00:20:46.700 and he gets in an elevator

00:20:47.920 with a single mom

00:20:49.040 who is

00:20:49.760 an elderly woman

00:20:51.320 who's a neighbor

00:20:52.040 and they're

00:20:53.040 nagging him

00:20:53.840 to go to his

00:20:54.280 homeowner's association

00:20:55.240 meeting

00:20:55.540 because he hasn't

00:20:55.940 done it yet

00:20:56.520 so it's like

00:20:57.520 if I can create

00:20:58.160 a character

00:20:58.680 who represents

00:20:59.720 these archetypal ideals

00:21:01.400 but cross them

00:21:02.580 in the world

00:21:02.980 with me and you

00:21:03.760 no one's done that

00:21:05.260 and the whole time

00:21:05.980 I was writing that

00:21:06.840 I was thinking

00:21:07.380 is this gonna

00:21:08.060 just fail miserably

00:21:09.800 is this not gonna

00:21:10.520 interest people

00:21:11.280 am I

00:21:11.580 because we're using

00:21:12.780 you know

00:21:13.360 anyone who's writing

00:21:14.060 genre

00:21:14.540 we're using

00:21:15.420 a previous mole

00:21:17.420 which I don't

00:21:18.000 I don't mean

00:21:18.520 in a way

00:21:18.840 that's denigrating

00:21:20.300 I mean

00:21:20.500 that's what

00:21:20.820 that's what

00:21:21.240 Shakespeare did

00:21:22.020 you know

00:21:22.300 some of the

00:21:22.820 the structure

00:21:24.280 and containment

00:21:25.120 and traditions

00:21:26.380 of a form

00:21:27.020 can be enormously useful

00:21:28.160 but I'm always

00:21:29.200 trying to tap it

00:21:30.000 and break it

00:21:30.500 at the edges

00:21:31.000 I did that a lot

00:21:31.900 when I was writing

00:21:32.340 Batman

00:21:32.760 so let's talk

00:21:35.400 about the comics

00:21:36.100 a bit

00:21:36.420 you wrote

00:21:36.840 Batman

00:21:37.200 for how long

00:21:37.920 two years

00:21:39.740 I started writing

00:21:41.260 six months

00:21:42.340 of the Penguin

00:21:43.020 and I had this

00:21:45.580 really funny thing

00:21:46.240 I was writing

00:21:46.600 for Marvel

00:21:47.080 Wolverine and Punisher

00:21:48.220 who are two

00:21:48.580 of my favorite

00:21:49.000 characters

00:21:49.580 and DC

00:21:50.600 came along

00:21:51.200 and told me

00:21:51.600 I could do

00:21:52.160 sort of whatever

00:21:52.800 I wanted

00:21:53.300 and you know

00:21:54.280 pick a character

00:21:55.000 and I said

00:21:56.020 what I really

00:21:56.720 want to do

00:21:57.300 is write

00:21:58.000 a graphic novel

00:21:59.580 of the Penguin

00:22:00.420 and he sort of

00:22:01.360 looked at me

00:22:01.820 with alarm

00:22:02.560 because

00:22:03.140 of all the choices

00:22:04.840 that I had

00:22:05.440 that was totally bizarre

00:22:06.500 but one of my

00:22:08.060 big inspirations

00:22:08.780 in comics

00:22:09.220 is The Killing Joke

00:22:10.140 by Alan Moore

00:22:10.820 that's the

00:22:11.380 essential origin

00:22:12.820 story of the Joker

00:22:13.740 and I thought

00:22:14.240 The Penguin

00:22:14.580 had always been

00:22:15.100 kind of a joke

00:22:15.820 and furthermore

00:22:16.740 I thought

00:22:17.040 how interesting

00:22:17.680 because if you're

00:22:18.320 the Penguin

00:22:18.840 then Batman

00:22:20.120 is the enemy

00:22:20.800 and Batman

00:22:21.400 is a bully

00:22:22.140 right

00:22:23.660 and so I wanted

00:22:24.760 to do this

00:22:25.280 alternate thing

00:22:26.040 and so he was like

00:22:26.860 you know

00:22:27.460 the publisher

00:22:28.320 of DC

00:22:28.700 let me do it

00:22:29.580 but I still remember

00:22:30.360 there was an online

00:22:31.100 poll

00:22:31.620 that said

00:22:32.760 that listed

00:22:34.120 10 upcoming comics

00:22:35.340 mine among it

00:22:36.160 and asked how much

00:22:36.960 readers were

00:22:37.560 anticipating them

00:22:38.660 and I got

00:22:39.060 .013% of the vote

00:22:41.180 and I still remember

00:22:42.380 one of my favorite

00:22:43.580 denigrating comments

00:22:44.800 of all time

00:22:45.400 is one guy

00:22:46.040 just wrote

00:22:46.540 I'm so glad

00:22:47.340 Hurwitz's mom

00:22:48.180 voted for him

00:22:49.040 which was great

00:22:51.100 and so it came out

00:22:52.600 to like

00:22:53.080 the interest

00:22:53.820 of no one

00:22:54.620 but what happened

00:22:55.700 is that

00:22:56.640 the critics

00:22:57.460 really sparked

00:22:58.280 to it

00:22:58.700 and then readers

00:22:59.440 really sparked

00:23:00.160 to it

00:23:00.400 and people all of a sudden

00:23:01.100 said we've never

00:23:01.940 looked at the Penguin

00:23:03.420 this way

00:23:04.000 and it was this

00:23:04.540 very interesting

00:23:05.100 object lesson

00:23:05.880 that like

00:23:06.260 had I gone

00:23:07.380 for the obvious

00:23:08.000 and said

00:23:08.380 let me write

00:23:08.980 Batman right away

00:23:09.820 or let me write

00:23:10.340 Superman right away

00:23:11.180 I chose something

00:23:12.340 that was super bizarre

00:23:13.320 that I had to write

00:23:14.680 and that I knew

00:23:15.360 that I really wanted

00:23:16.500 to write

00:23:16.840 and could do well

00:23:17.640 and from the most

00:23:18.840 unlikely position

00:23:20.160 it led to me

00:23:21.700 having

00:23:22.200 it sort of led

00:23:23.120 to a whole other

00:23:23.620 phase of my career

00:23:24.480 you know

00:23:25.100 and then I found

00:23:25.560 myself

00:23:25.980 you know

00:23:26.260 all of a sudden

00:23:26.620 working on Batman

00:23:27.480 for two years

00:23:28.120 with the best

00:23:28.600 artist in the world

00:23:29.480 so that's interesting

00:23:31.340 you took a lowly

00:23:33.100 approach

00:23:33.600 and an approach

00:23:34.620 to something

00:23:35.100 that people

00:23:35.620 actually found

00:23:36.440 contemptible

00:23:37.200 yes

00:23:38.680 so

00:23:39.040 and through that

00:23:40.760 you got what you want

00:23:41.620 so what in the world

00:23:42.580 was it about the Penguin

00:23:43.560 and the story

00:23:44.240 that you wrote

00:23:44.820 why in the world

00:23:46.000 did the Penguin

00:23:46.640 grip you like that

00:23:47.620 do you have any idea

00:23:48.520 and tell us again

00:23:50.240 tell us what you made

00:23:51.160 of it as well

00:23:51.820 well I had a strong

00:23:54.760 affinity like I said

00:23:56.400 for the Killing Joke

00:23:57.300 and I always thought

00:23:58.380 the Penguin was so

00:23:59.160 interesting because

00:24:00.220 of all of Batman's

00:24:02.660 rivals

00:24:03.120 he's the only one

00:24:05.520 who's sane

00:24:06.200 right

00:24:08.320 of the whole

00:24:09.120 you know

00:24:09.960 of all of the

00:24:10.900 nemeses

00:24:11.540 and the other thing

00:24:12.860 that just really

00:24:13.380 struck me was

00:24:14.020 this whole way

00:24:14.720 to view Batman

00:24:15.560 through a completely

00:24:16.240 different prism

00:24:17.020 I mean like

00:24:17.680 you can look at

00:24:18.200 the Joker

00:24:18.720 who's insane

00:24:20.120 and then he looks

00:24:20.840 at Batman

00:24:21.260 but Batman's

00:24:22.280 semi-insane too

00:24:23.560 like there's craziness

00:24:24.660 and such an

00:24:25.640 interesting prism

00:24:26.300 so with the Penguin

00:24:27.060 I wrote about

00:24:27.780 you know

00:24:28.000 his upbringing

00:24:28.620 and you know

00:24:29.720 he's this

00:24:30.260 unappealing

00:24:31.120 overweight kid

00:24:32.240 his brothers were

00:24:33.320 you know

00:24:34.040 athletic and robust

00:24:35.280 he was always

00:24:35.760 bullied growing up

00:24:36.900 and it's like

00:24:37.300 well guess what

00:24:37.820 Batman is

00:24:38.560 Batman's like

00:24:39.240 this paragon

00:24:39.980 of a physical specimen

00:24:41.100 so he's always

00:24:42.040 appearing in the

00:24:42.840 background

00:24:43.280 but I was like

00:24:44.100 if I can get

00:24:44.680 people to empathize

00:24:45.780 with the Penguin

00:24:46.420 and view Batman

00:24:47.540 as a villain

00:24:48.300 or not as a villain

00:24:49.780 necessarily

00:24:50.280 but just to really

00:24:51.240 if we can really

00:24:52.580 relate to the Penguin

00:24:53.660 and what his position

00:24:54.460 is in that universe

00:24:55.340 I just thought

00:24:57.520 that would be cool

00:24:59.740 but also a lot

00:25:00.600 of it was

00:25:01.160 and this is a lot

00:25:02.240 of what happens

00:25:02.740 is like

00:25:03.000 I don't have

00:25:03.540 a conscious thought

00:25:04.440 about it

00:25:05.100 you know

00:25:05.740 I was literally

00:25:06.160 driving to the meeting

00:25:07.200 with the publisher

00:25:08.640 of DC

00:25:09.060 and I just was thinking

00:25:10.420 I know this story

00:25:11.640 I know how to write it

00:25:12.760 I know how I want to

00:25:13.740 sort of direct it

00:25:14.820 on the page

00:25:15.580 I know what I want

00:25:16.740 to say with it

00:25:17.560 and it's only in hindsight

00:25:18.880 I can look back

00:25:19.700 and untangle it

00:25:20.500 and realize that

00:25:21.360 you know

00:25:22.200 oh well

00:25:22.820 part of what I was

00:25:24.180 interested in

00:25:24.760 was the aspect

00:25:25.980 that he's actually saying

00:25:27.560 and there's a bullying way

00:25:28.700 and it's a way

00:25:29.180 to look at Batman

00:25:29.960 through a new angle

00:25:30.800 yeah well there's

00:25:31.500 an interesting idea

00:25:32.720 lurking in there

00:25:33.520 as well

00:25:34.420 which is

00:25:34.940 if you think of Batman

00:25:36.620 as an ideal

00:25:38.080 now he's kind of

00:25:39.720 a one dimensional ideal

00:25:40.960 an ideal is also

00:25:42.800 a judge

00:25:43.480 because it's something

00:25:44.960 that you can't attain

00:25:46.500 to exactly

00:25:47.220 or that if you look

00:25:48.640 at it

00:25:49.100 makes you acutely

00:25:50.820 aware of your

00:25:51.740 lack

00:25:53.040 and so

00:25:54.740 on the one hand

00:25:55.660 an ideal is something

00:25:56.540 that is

00:25:57.760 positive

00:25:58.900 and worth striving for

00:26:00.360 but

00:26:00.640 on the other hand

00:26:01.680 it's necessarily

00:26:02.740 something that's got

00:26:03.740 this

00:26:04.000 it's not exactly

00:26:05.200 a bullying element

00:26:06.120 but it's something

00:26:06.720 similar to that

00:26:07.600 because you're

00:26:08.460 insufficient

00:26:09.120 in its presence

00:26:10.260 and they might say

00:26:12.020 as well

00:26:12.480 to the degree

00:26:13.760 that the

00:26:14.440 ideal is

00:26:15.780 one dimensional

00:26:16.600 the fact that

00:26:18.000 you're insufficient

00:26:18.680 in its presence

00:26:19.620 is actually

00:26:20.400 a bit

00:26:21.380 it's a bit unjust

00:26:22.680 or unfair

00:26:23.360 because there may be

00:26:24.200 other dimensions

00:26:24.900 of comparison

00:26:25.800 along which

00:26:26.380 you're doing fine

00:26:27.860 it's actually a claim

00:26:29.620 that's quite similar

00:26:30.340 to the post-modernist

00:26:31.420 idea

00:26:31.760 you know

00:26:32.120 that if you erect

00:26:33.420 a hierarchy of values

00:26:34.720 then by necessity

00:26:36.540 you exclude

00:26:37.380 people from that

00:26:38.380 hierarchy

00:26:38.880 and that

00:26:40.440 that is

00:26:41.040 in some sense

00:26:41.940 it's oppressive

00:26:44.360 and it's wrong

00:26:45.320 of course

00:26:46.080 the issue

00:26:46.520 they don't address

00:26:47.240 is that

00:26:47.660 if there's no

00:26:48.660 hierarchy of values

00:26:49.620 there's nowhere to go

00:26:50.520 and there's nothing to do

00:26:51.540 but

00:26:52.260 there is a point there

00:26:53.580 that if you're

00:26:54.200 the exemplar

00:26:55.080 of something

00:26:55.600 you make everyone else

00:26:57.000 feel insufficient

00:26:57.740 in your presence

00:26:58.540 and

00:26:58.780 you could also imagine

00:27:00.080 it would be easy

00:27:00.720 for that

00:27:01.100 to take on

00:27:01.900 a bullying aspect

00:27:02.900 you know

00:27:03.780 well and that's

00:27:04.280 something I played with

00:27:05.140 you know

00:27:05.700 so that even when I was

00:27:06.480 doing Batman

00:27:07.000 I still focused a lot

00:27:08.280 on the villain

00:27:08.780 and their perspective

00:27:09.760 so I did a run

00:27:11.640 with David Finch

00:27:12.420 on the Scarecrow

00:27:14.200 who I reinvented

00:27:15.020 for the New 52

00:27:15.720 and then I did one

00:27:16.720 with the Mad Hatter

00:27:17.440 with Ethan Van Sky

00:27:18.880 versus some of these

00:27:19.360 amazing artists

00:27:20.020 but one of the things

00:27:20.800 that I put

00:27:21.400 in one of the comics

00:27:23.580 is one of the thugs

00:27:25.920 who Batman comes along

00:27:27.300 and the thug says

00:27:28.040 like you don't remember me

00:27:29.000 do you

00:27:29.420 and Batman says no

00:27:30.960 and he goes

00:27:31.520 you came flying

00:27:32.200 through the window

00:27:32.860 you know

00:27:33.320 the typical Batman scene

00:27:34.600 and kick me with your

00:27:36.120 you know

00:27:36.460 your boots laying on my jaw

00:27:38.040 here's what

00:27:39.000 that surgery was

00:27:40.340 here's what

00:27:41.580 I'm living with

00:27:42.520 and he goes down

00:27:43.760 this very detailed

00:27:44.940 you know

00:27:45.340 because so often

00:27:46.080 it's Batman

00:27:46.640 swings through a window

00:27:47.520 and smashes a bad guy

00:27:48.760 and we all move on

00:27:49.660 and I took these pauses

00:27:51.440 sometimes

00:27:52.080 to kind of look at things

00:27:53.140 from a different angle

00:27:53.980 and it was like horrific

00:27:55.240 and fractured his skull

00:27:56.480 and his you know

00:27:57.260 his sinus was out

00:27:58.220 and like

00:27:58.580 it was

00:27:59.420 it's this horrific injury

00:28:00.820 that took you know

00:28:02.080 15 screws

00:28:03.480 and I sort of detailed

00:28:04.680 the whole thing

00:28:05.500 as he throws it back

00:28:07.420 to Batman

00:28:07.940 to be like

00:28:08.600 you know

00:28:08.840 I'm kind of

00:28:10.060 cannon fodder

00:28:10.920 in your mission

00:28:11.600 maybe what I was doing

00:28:12.800 is wrong

00:28:13.320 here's the level of pain

00:28:14.560 that you inflicted on me

00:28:15.620 nonetheless

00:28:16.120 and it was this

00:28:17.540 interesting pause

00:28:18.440 and I'd say

00:28:18.940 the things that

00:28:20.060 there's always a tightrope act

00:28:21.540 when you're writing

00:28:22.240 you know

00:28:23.140 a comic book character

00:28:24.080 because they're sort of

00:28:24.800 in a public trust

00:28:25.720 you know

00:28:26.020 I don't own them

00:28:26.940 DC doesn't fully own them

00:28:29.060 though they own them legally

00:28:30.000 but like

00:28:30.480 there's stuff

00:28:31.580 that you know

00:28:32.460 that you can't do

00:28:33.220 you can't have

00:28:33.720 Batman kill a busload

00:28:34.860 of nuns

00:28:35.360 I mean there's the obvious

00:28:36.200 but part of when

00:28:37.900 they hire me

00:28:38.440 is it's like

00:28:38.800 I need to bring

00:28:39.420 something new

00:28:39.920 to this character

00:28:40.640 but also

00:28:42.000 I need to honor

00:28:42.940 the traditions

00:28:43.600 that have come before

00:28:44.480 so it's like

00:28:45.420 I've been entrusted

00:28:46.300 with this thing

00:28:47.060 where I have to

00:28:47.860 play with it

00:28:49.260 and I have to navigate

00:28:50.040 that tightrope

00:28:51.080 very very meticulously

00:28:52.820 to do something

00:28:54.040 that makes it worth

00:28:54.960 them bringing me on

00:28:56.000 to give readers

00:28:56.540 something new

00:28:57.160 and to make myself

00:28:57.980 feel like I've put

00:28:58.780 my own stamp

00:29:00.440 on the character

00:29:01.320 but not stray too far

00:29:03.280 so it's a real exercise

00:29:04.400 in being this sort of

00:29:05.580 you know

00:29:06.080 holding the flame

00:29:06.900 of this tradition

00:29:07.640 one of the ways

00:29:08.860 I did that a lot too

00:29:09.880 that was I would

00:29:12.020 make fun of the

00:29:12.840 tradition itself

00:29:13.640 I got slightly

00:29:14.420 meta with it

00:29:15.240 for instance

00:29:15.860 so I'll give you

00:29:16.680 one example

00:29:17.300 is I did a scene

00:29:19.020 where Jim Gordon

00:29:20.420 the police commissioner

00:29:21.840 is talking

00:29:22.340 you know

00:29:22.560 it's late at night

00:29:23.220 Batman appears

00:29:23.900 in his office

00:29:24.520 they're having a conversation

00:29:26.020 it's darkly lit

00:29:26.880 and Jim starts

00:29:27.700 to muse on something

00:29:28.640 and he walks

00:29:29.300 you know

00:29:29.580 so the frame

00:29:30.260 is just with him

00:29:30.900 and he's looking

00:29:31.260 out the window

00:29:31.780 and he talks

00:29:32.880 for two panels

00:29:33.680 and then he says

00:29:34.180 oh

00:29:34.580 this is the part

00:29:35.900 where I turn around

00:29:36.640 and you're no longer

00:29:37.280 there right

00:29:37.940 and there's a blank

00:29:39.360 and then Batman

00:29:39.900 says nope

00:29:41.000 and then they turn

00:29:41.920 around and regard

00:29:42.600 each other

00:29:43.060 very awkwardly

00:29:43.880 for a panel

00:29:44.400 and then they go

00:29:45.100 alright then

00:29:45.920 and then they both

00:29:46.460 walk away awkwardly

00:29:47.600 so it's like

00:29:48.400 it's knowing

00:29:49.480 that we all live

00:29:50.460 in a world

00:29:50.940 of Batman comics

00:29:51.860 and maybe Batman

00:29:53.060 himself even does

00:29:54.080 also

00:29:54.540 and some of those

00:29:55.660 little nuances

00:29:56.500 are a way

00:29:57.500 to kind of massage

00:29:58.520 massage it

00:30:00.140 into something

00:30:00.940 in a culture

00:30:02.400 that's increasingly

00:30:03.080 pop culture aware

00:30:04.100 so I was thinking

00:30:06.900 about this

00:30:08.480 perfection issue

00:30:10.120 again

00:30:10.480 and the issue

00:30:11.140 of monstrousness

00:30:12.200 so I read this

00:30:13.820 I think it was

00:30:14.940 A Billion Wicked Thoughts

00:30:16.240 which is a very

00:30:16.760 interesting book

00:30:17.580 the Google engineers

00:30:19.460 were looking at

00:30:20.320 Google searches

00:30:21.720 and trying to do

00:30:22.620 psychology

00:30:23.240 as a consequence

00:30:24.020 and because

00:30:24.920 they're engineers

00:30:25.540 they'll think

00:30:26.860 anything they want

00:30:27.560 to think

00:30:27.880 and they don't

00:30:28.240 care much

00:30:28.740 about how

00:30:29.560 politically correct

00:30:30.340 it is

00:30:30.680 for example

00:30:31.260 and one of the

00:30:32.720 things they noted

00:30:33.360 was that

00:30:33.960 they were looking

00:30:35.000 at pornography

00:30:35.700 use

00:30:36.200 and it's no

00:30:38.680 surprise to anyone

00:30:39.500 of course

00:30:39.900 that men

00:30:40.460 use images

00:30:42.560 for pornography

00:30:43.480 fundamentally

00:30:44.180 and everyone

00:30:45.540 knows what the

00:30:46.120 images are like

00:30:46.840 it's usually

00:30:47.880 young women

00:30:48.500 who are symmetrical

00:30:49.260 and so forth

00:30:50.400 and youthful

00:30:52.180 from a sociobiological

00:30:53.660 perspective

00:30:54.260 because that's

00:30:54.920 associated with

00:30:55.840 fruitfulness

00:30:57.260 and fecundity

00:30:58.060 and that sort

00:30:58.620 of thing

00:30:58.940 and

00:30:59.240 that's actually

00:31:00.300 my favorite

00:31:00.920 website

00:31:01.480 is youngwomenwhoresymmetrical.com

00:31:03.820 the advertisement

00:31:05.820 has to be

00:31:06.480 slightly different

00:31:07.200 but nonetheless

00:31:07.900 point is taken

00:31:08.920 yes exactly

00:31:09.720 exactly

00:31:10.220 well

00:31:10.540 they also

00:31:11.540 looked at

00:31:12.300 female pornography

00:31:13.420 use

00:31:13.860 surprisingly enough

00:31:15.680 and it was

00:31:16.860 almost all literary

00:31:17.800 it was written

00:31:18.860 and it was stories

00:31:20.320 and

00:31:21.100 they pointed out

00:31:23.120 that the basic

00:31:23.740 story

00:31:24.140 and this is

00:31:24.540 something

00:31:24.820 that I found

00:31:25.560 extremely useful

00:31:26.260 because in some

00:31:26.980 ways I've always

00:31:28.140 been looking for

00:31:28.800 the fundamental

00:31:29.460 female myth

00:31:30.580 because it's not

00:31:34.600 exactly the same

00:31:35.380 as the hero

00:31:35.860 archetype

00:31:36.460 which is perhaps

00:31:37.300 the fundamental

00:31:37.800 male myth

00:31:38.480 but anyways

00:31:39.460 the female myth

00:31:41.280 was essentially

00:31:41.880 beauty and the beast

00:31:42.900 so the guy

00:31:44.080 was beastly

00:31:45.680 obviously

00:31:46.300 and

00:31:47.280 he would

00:31:48.520 she would

00:31:49.120 entice him

00:31:49.900 into a relationship

00:31:50.960 that would

00:31:51.560 tame him

00:31:52.320 in some sense

00:31:53.040 and he would

00:31:54.080 become humanized

00:31:55.380 but under her

00:31:56.440 tutelage

00:31:57.620 and devote

00:31:58.200 himself

00:31:58.840 to her

00:31:59.640 and

00:32:00.780 they named

00:32:01.760 the five

00:32:02.420 most common

00:32:03.680 beasts

00:32:04.600 in

00:32:05.780 this kind of

00:32:07.040 literature

00:32:07.640 be soft core

00:32:08.620 pornography

00:32:09.080 or maybe even

00:32:09.680 hardcore

00:32:10.020 pornographic literature

00:32:11.280 I know that even

00:32:12.580 Harlequin

00:32:14.040 the big purveyor

00:32:14.920 of romance novels

00:32:15.820 has a pretty

00:32:16.420 hardcore

00:32:17.060 side

00:32:18.740 imprint

00:32:20.600 anyways

00:32:21.920 the five

00:32:22.500 most popular

00:32:23.260 beasts were

00:32:24.160 surgeon

00:32:25.500 billionaire

00:32:26.700 pirate

00:32:27.840 vampire

00:32:28.800 and werewolf

00:32:29.880 which is

00:32:30.780 you know

00:32:31.340 really quite comical

00:32:32.620 as far as I'm

00:32:33.300 concerned

00:32:33.560 but it made me

00:32:34.440 think

00:32:34.660 well you were

00:32:35.080 talking about

00:32:35.820 perfection

00:32:37.600 that there is

00:32:38.520 a kind of

00:32:38.980 monstrousness

00:32:39.760 in perfection

00:32:40.480 as well

00:32:40.980 and so

00:32:42.080 you know

00:32:43.560 again

00:32:44.100 women

00:32:45.040 the research

00:32:46.780 evidence

00:32:47.200 seems to

00:32:47.720 suggest that

00:32:48.340 women mate

00:32:48.960 across and up

00:32:50.060 dominance

00:32:50.900 hierarchies

00:32:51.420 where men

00:32:52.480 mate across

00:32:53.360 and down

00:32:53.940 socio-economic

00:32:55.200 dominance

00:32:55.880 hierarchies

00:32:56.320 and so

00:32:56.620 the women

00:32:57.300 are in some

00:32:57.840 sense

00:32:58.120 attracted to

00:32:58.840 guys who

00:32:59.380 are

00:32:59.620 unidimensionally

00:33:01.000 monstrous

00:33:01.640 enough

00:33:02.000 to climb

00:33:03.020 to the top

00:33:03.580 of a given

00:33:04.020 dominance

00:33:04.520 hierarchy

00:33:04.960 but then

00:33:05.980 so that begs

00:33:07.860 the question

00:33:08.380 which is that

00:33:09.120 in that

00:33:09.980 drive for

00:33:10.920 perfection

00:33:11.440 if there

00:33:11.980 isn't something

00:33:12.620 intrinsically

00:33:13.420 monstrous

00:33:14.140 and that has

00:33:15.600 something to do

00:33:16.260 with the

00:33:16.760 willingness to

00:33:17.340 sacrifice

00:33:17.760 everything else

00:33:18.540 to that

00:33:18.980 single-minded

00:33:19.700 pursuit

00:33:20.180 so

00:33:21.680 I wonder

00:33:23.560 if those

00:33:23.900 things are

00:33:24.260 even

00:33:24.500 if you can

00:33:25.180 even

00:33:25.400 take them

00:33:26.360 apart

00:33:26.720 because

00:33:27.300 Batman

00:33:27.800 who's obviously

00:33:28.880 a creature

00:33:29.340 of the night

00:33:29.920 I would say

00:33:31.160 he's probably

00:33:31.820 the superhero

00:33:32.560 that has

00:33:33.060 the most

00:33:33.600 self-evident

00:33:34.480 integration

00:33:35.740 of pathology

00:33:36.700 associated

00:33:37.260 with his

00:33:37.640 character

00:33:38.040 something like

00:33:38.640 that

00:33:38.880 because he's

00:33:39.420 this dark

00:33:39.920 guy

00:33:40.220 and he

00:33:40.580 definitely

00:33:41.560 operates

00:33:42.220 outside of

00:33:42.780 the parameters

00:33:43.300 of the law

00:33:43.960 quite clearly

00:33:44.700 and he is

00:33:45.580 motivated

00:33:46.160 to no small

00:33:47.620 end

00:33:48.900 by

00:33:49.560 vengeance

00:33:50.840 I would say

00:33:53.080 like

00:33:53.460 and the borderline

00:33:54.440 between vengeance

00:33:55.140 and justice

00:33:55.720 is of course

00:33:56.480 very murky

00:33:57.460 so

00:33:58.480 then you

00:34:01.540 talked about

00:34:02.160 the

00:34:02.800 requirement

00:34:04.120 or the

00:34:04.800 utility of

00:34:05.880 intimacy

00:34:06.360 in buffering

00:34:07.220 against

00:34:07.620 that

00:34:07.860 perfection

00:34:08.320 but that

00:34:08.760 makes you

00:34:09.200 wonder

00:34:09.380 too

00:34:09.660 if it

00:34:10.180 also

00:34:10.540 provides

00:34:10.960 a

00:34:11.100 necessary

00:34:11.540 buffer

00:34:11.920 against

00:34:12.300 monstrousness

00:34:13.160 yes

00:34:14.180 well that's

00:34:15.300 I mean

00:34:15.620 that's the line

00:34:16.360 to get back

00:34:16.960 to with Jack

00:34:18.640 to Evan

00:34:19.500 Smoke

00:34:19.940 when he says

00:34:20.700 the hard part

00:34:21.320 isn't turning

00:34:21.740 into a killer

00:34:22.240 and the hard part

00:34:22.780 is keeping you

00:34:23.280 human

00:34:23.600 and that's

00:34:24.820 that's the flaw

00:34:25.540 that he deals

00:34:26.200 with

00:34:26.520 but I can say

00:34:27.400 you know

00:34:28.260 with

00:34:28.800 with Orphan X

00:34:30.040 I mean

00:34:30.240 this is a book

00:34:30.780 that connected

00:34:31.380 with readers

00:34:31.940 it's been

00:34:32.360 translated

00:34:32.880 and published

00:34:33.420 in 20 languages

00:34:34.440 the vast majority

00:34:36.080 emails that I get

00:34:37.060 are about

00:34:37.780 his relationship

00:34:39.300 trying to navigate

00:34:40.320 his way through

00:34:40.940 the normal world

00:34:41.840 that's the stuff

00:34:43.240 that people

00:34:43.720 love with it

00:34:45.260 so there's the mission

00:34:46.480 there's the spy stuff

00:34:47.480 I'd say there's two parts

00:34:48.660 one of them is

00:34:49.340 that he is a trained

00:34:50.460 assassin

00:34:50.920 who now

00:34:52.400 has become

00:34:54.140 a pro bono

00:34:54.820 assassin

00:34:55.240 his moral compass

00:34:56.240 was never broken

00:34:57.140 because of his upbringing

00:34:57.900 with Jack

00:34:58.480 he now helps

00:34:59.800 only the truly

00:35:00.760 desperate

00:35:01.340 right

00:35:02.140 and said

00:35:02.500 he's an evil

00:35:03.540 capitalist

00:35:04.220 exactly

00:35:05.380 well he has

00:35:08.420 he has money

00:35:09.160 stashed in bank

00:35:09.920 accounts everywhere

00:35:10.640 from when he was

00:35:11.220 operating off the book

00:35:12.160 so there's a

00:35:13.160 there's a good

00:35:13.820 capitalist strain

00:35:14.760 still going on

00:35:15.560 oh yeah

00:35:15.960 but the other thing

00:35:16.640 is these interactions

00:35:17.640 like you know

00:35:18.560 there's a single

00:35:19.180 mother who's been

00:35:20.020 widowed with a young

00:35:20.980 boy who lives

00:35:21.520 downstairs from him

00:35:22.520 who he is

00:35:23.560 who he's enamored

00:35:24.680 of but has no

00:35:25.900 he doesn't speak

00:35:26.800 the language of intimacy

00:35:27.900 so there's this like

00:35:29.320 distant flirtatious

00:35:30.600 relationship

00:35:31.200 with her

00:35:31.620 the boy's very

00:35:32.440 enamored of Evan

00:35:33.320 he doesn't quite

00:35:35.200 know what to do

00:35:35.760 with her

00:35:35.940 to complicate

00:35:36.500 matters further

00:35:37.260 she's a district

00:35:38.340 attorney

00:35:38.780 so if she actually

00:35:39.760 knew anything

00:35:40.220 about him

00:35:40.740 that's legitimate

00:35:41.340 she'd have to

00:35:41.900 prosecute him

00:35:42.720 and those

00:35:44.140 those moments

00:35:45.060 of him trying

00:35:45.880 to figure out

00:35:46.720 I'm carrying

00:35:48.300 out this mission

00:35:49.040 that requires

00:35:49.820 comprehensive

00:35:50.940 discipline and

00:35:52.420 focus

00:35:52.940 and yet here's

00:35:54.100 this draw

00:35:54.780 to this woman

00:35:55.540 and her kid

00:35:57.080 and the kind

00:35:57.580 of warmth

00:35:58.000 of a house

00:35:58.660 that's an immense

00:35:59.600 draw for him

00:36:00.400 and I think

00:36:01.220 at the heart

00:36:01.680 of him

00:36:01.980 there's this

00:36:02.400 conflict

00:36:02.820 where like

00:36:03.200 I always

00:36:03.580 I view it

00:36:04.240 that he's

00:36:04.580 kind of

00:36:05.020 got his face

00:36:05.900 up to the glass

00:36:06.760 and he's looking

00:36:07.440 in at all these

00:36:08.160 people leading

00:36:08.780 ordinary lives

00:36:09.640 that he himself

00:36:10.360 can never lead

00:36:11.200 like he can never

00:36:12.480 live those lives

00:36:13.420 but so what he

00:36:14.660 can do is to

00:36:15.340 protect people

00:36:16.020 when those

00:36:16.360 ordinary lives

00:36:17.100 are disrupted

00:36:17.780 and when they're

00:36:19.420 put upon

00:36:20.400 by horrible

00:36:21.580 men

00:36:21.960 right

00:36:22.280 or horrible

00:36:22.940 unfixable

00:36:24.260 solutions

00:36:24.880 the cops

00:36:25.340 can't help

00:36:25.820 you

00:36:25.960 nobody can

00:36:26.540 help you

00:36:26.900 you're powerless

00:36:27.600 you've been

00:36:28.540 bullied nearly

00:36:29.680 into oblivion

00:36:30.620 and there's a

00:36:31.520 huge risk to

00:36:32.360 yourself

00:36:32.760 they can call

00:36:33.560 him and he

00:36:34.020 can fix it

00:36:34.620 so he can

00:36:35.040 constantly

00:36:35.440 re-establish

00:36:36.280 and protect

00:36:36.700 the lives

00:36:37.080 of other

00:36:37.320 people

00:36:37.720 but he

00:36:38.360 can't ever

00:36:38.760 have it

00:36:39.260 and so that

00:36:40.460 for me is

00:36:40.880 what's really

00:36:41.260 interesting

00:36:41.700 and that takes

00:36:43.080 a twist in

00:36:43.600 the nowhere man

00:36:44.140 as we discussed

00:36:44.780 which deals

00:36:45.300 more with

00:36:45.800 kind of

00:36:46.520 different thematics

00:36:47.420 since he's

00:36:47.840 the one who's

00:36:48.200 captured

00:36:48.580 about aging

00:36:49.380 versus

00:36:49.880 you know

00:36:51.160 about trying

00:36:51.780 to be everything

00:36:52.360 versus trying

00:36:52.980 to be one thing

00:36:53.640 yeah you play

00:36:54.400 that out differently

00:36:55.220 in the nowhere man

00:36:56.120 with different

00:36:56.680 that's a

00:36:57.940 yeah that's a

00:36:58.640 that's a slightly

00:36:59.320 different theme

00:37:00.080 right that's

00:37:00.740 there's a Peter Pan

00:37:02.000 theme there

00:37:02.700 the

00:37:03.620 yeah I mean

00:37:04.020 Mike

00:37:04.260 go ahead

00:37:05.300 no no no

00:37:06.320 go ahead

00:37:06.680 you know the theme

00:37:07.560 well so I mean

00:37:08.260 so again

00:37:08.800 in the nowhere man

00:37:09.880 I mean for the

00:37:10.620 second book

00:37:11.260 it's always tricky

00:37:11.920 to follow up a book

00:37:12.840 that

00:37:13.120 that

00:37:13.700 that

00:37:14.700 connects

00:37:15.700 with a readership

00:37:16.500 in a certain way

00:37:17.180 but I really

00:37:17.680 wanted to turn

00:37:18.580 reader expectations

00:37:19.640 on their head

00:37:20.420 so I thought

00:37:21.260 well what if

00:37:21.820 instead of

00:37:22.540 of Evan

00:37:24.220 going and doing

00:37:24.880 another mission

00:37:25.680 that we're used to

00:37:26.800 he gets the

00:37:27.420 anonymous phone call

00:37:28.400 and goes and helps

00:37:28.920 someone

00:37:29.200 what if he finds

00:37:30.220 himself in exactly

00:37:31.360 the kind of predicament

00:37:32.400 that other people

00:37:33.400 usually call him

00:37:34.300 for

00:37:34.680 so the nowhere man

00:37:36.060 opens with him

00:37:36.860 finishing out

00:37:37.520 the end of an operation

00:37:38.380 somehow manages

00:37:39.740 to get kidnapped

00:37:40.360 as I mentioned

00:37:41.140 he comes to

00:37:42.320 in this distant

00:37:43.360 chateau

00:37:44.040 where he's being

00:37:44.600 overseen by a guy

00:37:45.540 called Rene Peter

00:37:46.420 Cassaroy

00:37:47.100 and we're not

00:37:48.780 quite sure

00:37:49.340 why he's there

00:37:50.220 they don't know

00:37:50.820 who he is yet

00:37:51.740 things are going

00:37:52.880 to get really bad

00:37:53.600 there's dozens

00:37:54.300 of armed guards

00:37:55.240 but Evan now

00:37:56.560 is the one

00:37:57.140 who he would

00:37:57.680 normally call

00:37:58.460 and has to

00:37:58.980 free himself

00:37:59.500 so it's about

00:38:00.300 his own

00:38:00.740 liberation

00:38:01.320 to get back

00:38:02.240 to finishing

00:38:02.740 the mission

00:38:03.140 that he wants

00:38:03.600 to do

00:38:03.960 and to protect

00:38:04.480 other people

00:38:04.980 who are at

00:38:05.320 the chateau

00:38:05.960 but what was

00:38:07.420 interesting to me

00:38:08.080 is that conversation

00:38:08.960 that we seem

00:38:09.540 to always have

00:38:10.240 in thrillers

00:38:11.560 and mysteries

00:38:11.960 and comics

00:38:12.560 you're just

00:38:13.160 like me

00:38:13.820 Rene

00:38:16.660 has a similar

00:38:18.220 thing to Evan

00:38:18.800 and says

00:38:19.280 like me

00:38:19.880 you don't

00:38:20.280 obey any rules

00:38:21.260 he knows

00:38:22.360 he's a vigilante

00:38:23.120 he doesn't

00:38:23.400 quite know

00:38:23.720 what he does

00:38:24.200 but he thinks

00:38:24.700 he might be

00:38:25.140 a drug dealer

00:38:25.820 or an arms dealer

00:38:28.120 he's ambiguous

00:38:29.060 he's really just

00:38:29.940 after a particular

00:38:31.420 bank account

00:38:32.140 that Evan

00:38:32.520 is attached to

00:38:33.260 and hasn't yet

00:38:33.740 learned who he is

00:38:34.560 and Evan says

00:38:35.620 no

00:38:35.940 you want to be

00:38:36.920 everything

00:38:37.420 I want to be

00:38:38.560 one thing

00:38:39.080 well

00:38:39.480 and it occurred

00:38:41.160 to me

00:38:41.400 when I was

00:38:41.680 doing that

00:38:42.240 so Peter

00:38:42.820 Rene

00:38:43.260 I'm sorry

00:38:44.100 Rene Peter

00:38:44.880 Casseroi

00:38:45.700 Casseroi

00:38:46.480 is a play

00:38:46.980 on the French

00:38:47.480 word for pan

00:38:48.260 so it's sort

00:38:49.180 of Rene Peter

00:38:49.820 pan

00:38:50.140 he's obsessed

00:38:52.020 with luxury

00:38:53.640 with being all

00:38:54.540 things

00:38:55.040 with not

00:38:56.020 making choices

00:38:57.160 with turning

00:38:57.920 back the clock

00:38:58.560 on aging

00:38:59.100 he takes a

00:38:59.820 regimen of pills

00:39:00.700 he's obsessed

00:39:01.420 with the aging

00:39:02.640 process

00:39:03.120 and it occurred

00:39:04.220 to me again

00:39:04.740 after I wrote it

00:39:05.800 because I don't

00:39:06.140 go in charting

00:39:06.920 these things out

00:39:07.520 like an engineer

00:39:08.360 I go in

00:39:09.960 writing a story

00:39:10.580 that I want

00:39:10.900 to write

00:39:11.240 but it occurred

00:39:11.740 to me that

00:39:12.100 Evan's statement

00:39:12.880 to say

00:39:13.520 we're as different

00:39:14.560 as can be

00:39:15.160 you want to be

00:39:16.040 everything

00:39:16.360 I want to be

00:39:16.760 one thing

00:39:17.180 well

00:39:17.560 that being

00:39:18.280 one thing

00:39:18.820 well

00:39:19.280 is our only

00:39:21.020 antidote

00:39:21.560 really to aging

00:39:22.340 so it's the exact

00:39:23.980 opposite of what

00:39:24.820 Rene is trying

00:39:25.780 to do

00:39:26.160 it's also

00:39:26.900 the antidote

00:39:28.680 to remaining

00:39:29.300 that

00:39:29.720 it's the antidote

00:39:31.780 to becoming

00:39:32.940 an old child

00:39:34.000 too

00:39:34.420 which is of course

00:39:35.800 Peter Pan's

00:39:36.660 story

00:39:36.920 right

00:39:37.200 there's this idea

00:39:38.380 that you have

00:39:38.960 to give up

00:39:39.560 everything

00:39:40.020 to become

00:39:41.120 one thing

00:39:41.900 but if you

00:39:44.200 don't give it up

00:39:44.960 then you become

00:39:45.780 no thing

00:39:46.400 eventually

00:39:47.000 because aging

00:39:48.900 drives

00:39:49.380 maybe that's also

00:39:50.560 why your character

00:39:51.380 Casseroi

00:39:52.100 has to fight

00:39:52.980 off aging

00:39:53.540 because aging

00:39:54.280 is forcing him

00:39:55.240 to become

00:39:55.780 well

00:39:57.280 if not to become

00:39:58.760 one thing

00:39:59.220 at least to

00:39:59.900 lose his capacity

00:40:01.240 to become

00:40:01.860 anything

00:40:02.440 or everything

00:40:03.180 exactly

00:40:04.220 and that's

00:40:06.060 the only thing

00:40:06.560 that's your

00:40:07.360 bulwark

00:40:07.800 I mean

00:40:08.000 that's the

00:40:08.320 other argument

00:40:08.880 to perfection

00:40:09.500 versus intimacy

00:40:10.260 at some

00:40:10.780 point

00:40:12.100 the toll

00:40:14.220 of aging

00:40:14.780 takes perfection

00:40:15.720 away from us

00:40:16.620 in every way

00:40:17.580 if you're a

00:40:18.060 sharpshooter

00:40:18.600 if you're an

00:40:19.060 athlete

00:40:19.380 if you're

00:40:20.160 young Paul

00:40:21.080 Newman

00:40:21.340 and look like

00:40:22.100 young Paul

00:40:22.520 Newman

00:40:22.800 who is probably

00:40:24.180 the best looking

00:40:24.920 human of either

00:40:25.700 gender in history

00:40:26.660 at some point

00:40:27.820 no matter what

00:40:28.480 you are perfect

00:40:29.220 at

00:40:29.660 you're a great

00:40:30.460 surgeon

00:40:31.000 perfection

00:40:31.720 will be taken

00:40:32.300 from you

00:40:32.820 so

00:40:33.880 well what's

00:40:34.820 the antidote

00:40:35.320 to that

00:40:35.740 the antidote

00:40:36.220 to that

00:40:36.500 is doing

00:40:36.980 something

00:40:37.500 doing something

00:40:38.780 else well

00:40:39.400 and making

00:40:39.800 choices

00:40:40.280 are you a good

00:40:41.160 husband

00:40:41.500 are you a good

00:40:42.240 father

00:40:42.600 do you have

00:40:43.300 a good

00:40:44.200 community

00:40:45.660 around you

00:40:46.220 do you have

00:40:46.520 friendships

00:40:46.860 around you

00:40:47.340 so that when

00:40:47.740 aging comes

00:40:48.380 and starts to

00:40:48.860 kick out

00:40:49.200 those stilts

00:40:49.900 you have enough

00:40:50.380 under you

00:40:50.820 that you don't

00:40:51.160 just topple over

00:40:52.080 yeah right

00:40:53.160 well so that's

00:40:53.800 interesting

00:40:54.260 because

00:40:54.720 the

00:40:55.980 you talked

00:40:57.120 about the

00:40:57.540 necessity

00:40:57.940 for

00:40:58.460 for

00:40:59.320 for perfection

00:41:01.140 as an

00:41:02.120 antidote

00:41:02.640 say to the

00:41:03.240 Peter Pan

00:41:03.820 problem

00:41:04.280 but what

00:41:05.560 the case

00:41:06.020 you're making

00:41:06.400 now is more

00:41:07.160 that even

00:41:09.340 perfection as

00:41:11.340 an antidote to

00:41:12.300 the Peter Pan

00:41:13.200 syndrome has

00:41:14.600 its problems

00:41:15.200 but maybe those

00:41:16.040 aren't echoed

00:41:17.880 with intimacy

00:41:18.480 and you know

00:41:20.360 because you talked

00:41:20.940 about getting

00:41:21.500 older and the

00:41:22.760 fact that your

00:41:23.320 family and friends

00:41:24.100 become more

00:41:24.720 important to you

00:41:25.340 which is definitely

00:41:25.920 something that I've

00:41:26.780 noticed

00:41:27.160 and I guess

00:41:32.560 on your deathbed

00:41:33.480 let's say

00:41:34.160 one of the

00:41:36.240 things that's

00:41:36.640 going to matter

00:41:37.160 is who's

00:41:37.620 around there

00:41:38.160 with you

00:41:38.800 right

00:41:40.140 and I

00:41:41.480 and as you

00:41:42.460 get older

00:41:42.880 and you get

00:41:43.320 robbed of

00:41:43.880 things

00:41:44.300 I wonder if

00:41:45.740 it's the

00:41:46.200 intimate

00:41:46.620 relationships

00:41:47.260 that you

00:41:47.740 have

00:41:48.120 that provide

00:41:49.620 solace

00:41:50.180 with regards

00:41:51.420 to that

00:41:51.860 I mean

00:41:52.200 one of the

00:41:52.940 things that

00:41:53.320 distresses me

00:41:54.040 about the

00:41:55.460 way that our

00:41:55.960 world

00:41:56.300 the modern

00:41:57.020 western world

00:41:57.680 is unfolding

00:41:58.260 is that we

00:41:58.700 act as if

00:41:59.360 we're never

00:41:59.660 going to be

00:42:00.100 any older

00:42:00.500 than 35

00:42:01.260 Jung talked

00:42:03.600 about that

00:42:04.080 Carl Jung

00:42:04.580 talked about

00:42:05.080 that

00:42:05.340 he thought

00:42:05.940 it was a

00:42:06.320 flaw in

00:42:06.840 our founding

00:42:07.420 myth

00:42:07.820 because if

00:42:08.760 you think

00:42:09.060 about western

00:42:09.640 culture as

00:42:10.200 predicated on

00:42:10.920 Christianity

00:42:11.500 of course

00:42:12.040 Christ died

00:42:12.720 when he was

00:42:13.120 about 32

00:42:13.880 that's the

00:42:14.600 that's the

00:42:15.140 theory

00:42:15.440 and so

00:42:16.140 there's not

00:42:16.720 necessarily

00:42:17.500 any model

00:42:18.580 there for

00:42:19.100 moving into

00:42:19.700 the latter

00:42:20.100 half of

00:42:20.600 life

00:42:20.980 and there

00:42:22.520 is this

00:42:22.900 obsession

00:42:23.380 in western

00:42:24.020 culture

00:42:24.420 with youthfulness

00:42:25.220 and with

00:42:26.520 the possibilities

00:42:27.320 of youth

00:42:27.960 and people

00:42:29.180 people act

00:42:30.980 I would say

00:42:31.540 as if

00:42:31.960 they're never

00:42:32.400 going to get

00:42:32.900 old

00:42:33.220 and so

00:42:33.700 one of the

00:42:35.960 dangers there

00:42:36.600 is that you

00:42:37.080 don't establish

00:42:38.280 the kind of

00:42:38.800 relationships

00:42:39.380 that are going

00:42:39.840 to buttress you

00:42:40.540 in your old age

00:42:41.780 you end up

00:42:42.380 single for example

00:42:43.340 in your 40s

00:42:44.260 or whatever

00:42:44.700 and it starts

00:42:45.720 to get pretty

00:42:46.180 ugly

00:42:46.560 you're lonesome

00:42:47.620 in LA

00:42:48.440 you see it

00:42:49.620 in space

00:42:50.100 because LA

00:42:50.660 is the land

00:42:51.280 of the

00:42:51.540 perpetual

00:42:51.980 adolescent

00:42:52.640 right

00:42:53.760 so everyone

00:42:54.120 comes out

00:42:54.580 here off

00:42:55.080 their proverbial

00:42:55.840 bus from

00:42:56.660 you know

00:42:57.120 Des Moines

00:42:57.620 or northern

00:42:58.840 Alberta

00:42:59.260 and they

00:43:01.340 want to make

00:43:01.900 it

00:43:02.000 they're the

00:43:02.320 best looking

00:43:02.920 person from

00:43:03.740 their hometown

00:43:04.920 who started

00:43:05.520 their hometown

00:43:05.960 play

00:43:06.400 and you know

00:43:07.900 it's squeezing

00:43:08.500 the universe

00:43:09.260 through a funnel

00:43:09.880 for people

00:43:10.320 who are actually

00:43:10.860 going to be

00:43:11.140 a movie star

00:43:11.820 or actually

00:43:12.340 going to make

00:43:12.800 it as a singer

00:43:13.440 but it's sort

00:43:15.020 of this

00:43:15.280 intermittent

00:43:15.740 reinforcement

00:43:16.500 thing that happens

00:43:17.240 is it's like

00:43:17.680 they'll go

00:43:17.960 two or three

00:43:18.460 years working

00:43:19.620 odd jobs

00:43:20.480 because they

00:43:20.900 need to keep

00:43:21.340 their schedule

00:43:21.740 open for auditions

00:43:22.800 and then they'll

00:43:24.000 get cast as an

00:43:24.680 extra in one thing

00:43:25.660 and then they go

00:43:26.700 three or four

00:43:27.220 more years

00:43:27.900 because you know

00:43:28.620 because at any

00:43:29.220 point you could

00:43:29.940 hit the lottery

00:43:30.540 and everyone

00:43:31.100 has the story

00:43:31.840 of the guy

00:43:32.740 who is

00:43:33.140 you know

00:43:34.060 our culture

00:43:36.140 is also built

00:43:36.820 around never

00:43:37.400 give up

00:43:37.940 right

00:43:38.320 and you know

00:43:39.980 follow your

00:43:40.600 dreams

00:43:41.080 there's a

00:43:41.920 pervasive

00:43:43.220 notion that

00:43:44.960 you never

00:43:45.680 settle

00:43:46.200 and I'm

00:43:48.380 not denigrating

00:43:49.160 those things

00:43:49.800 I'm saying

00:43:50.280 that's part

00:43:51.640 of how our

00:43:52.260 culture is built

00:43:53.000 but you see

00:43:53.400 a ton of

00:43:53.860 people here

00:43:54.340 in their

00:43:54.600 40s

00:43:55.080 50s

00:43:55.680 who never

00:43:57.500 sort of

00:43:58.020 moved on

00:43:58.760 to you know

00:43:59.980 a job

00:44:00.540 or a skill

00:44:00.980 that's gratifying

00:44:01.720 their whole

00:44:02.240 life has been

00:44:02.740 spent waiting

00:44:03.320 for another

00:44:04.060 break

00:44:04.600 and it's

00:44:06.100 heartbreaking

00:44:06.580 because you know

00:44:07.560 they had

00:44:07.860 some success

00:44:08.820 for a period

00:44:09.280 and never

00:44:09.600 recaptured it

00:44:10.400 and didn't

00:44:10.720 reinvent themselves

00:44:11.420 I noticed

00:44:12.280 something really

00:44:12.760 interesting

00:44:13.160 when I went

00:44:13.660 to Australia

00:44:14.900 for book tour

00:44:15.560 and I'm

00:44:15.780 going back

00:44:16.240 there

00:44:16.520 in a couple

00:44:17.320 weeks

00:44:17.700 which was

00:44:18.840 amazing

00:44:19.240 which is

00:44:19.620 I did

00:44:20.140 a lot

00:44:20.520 of events

00:44:20.960 with really

00:44:22.460 famous

00:44:22.920 Australians

00:44:23.400 who didn't

00:44:24.420 cross over

00:44:24.980 to the US

00:44:25.400 so like

00:44:26.560 you have

00:44:26.740 your ACDC

00:44:27.520 that came

00:44:27.960 over here

00:44:28.280 and just

00:44:28.500 blew up

00:44:28.960 or you know

00:44:29.380 Nicole

00:44:29.640 can't

00:44:30.020 fill in

00:44:30.460 the blank

00:44:30.860 but there

00:44:32.080 was people

00:44:32.460 who were

00:44:32.740 like big

00:44:33.240 movie stars

00:44:33.720 who didn't

00:44:34.020 make it

00:44:34.300 here

00:44:34.580 a big

00:44:37.300 like an

00:44:37.900 enormous

00:44:38.460 rock band

00:44:39.280 there

00:44:39.680 that just

00:44:40.240 didn't make

00:44:40.620 it to the US

00:44:41.340 and the one

00:44:42.160 thing I was

00:44:42.560 amazed with

00:44:43.260 is for some

00:44:43.800 reason I

00:44:44.120 came into

00:44:44.440 contact with

00:44:45.080 them either

00:44:45.580 through festivals

00:44:46.540 or you know

00:44:47.520 we had

00:44:48.200 reading together

00:44:48.800 is they all

00:44:49.640 had meaningful

00:44:52.480 second slash

00:44:54.540 third acts

00:44:55.440 so this guy

00:44:56.220 who was a

00:44:56.600 big huge

00:44:57.160 movie star

00:44:57.820 there was

00:44:59.160 now a big

00:44:59.640 crime fiction

00:45:00.340 reviewer

00:45:00.980 so I met

00:45:01.660 him

00:45:01.980 because you

00:45:03.200 just don't

00:45:03.780 make the

00:45:04.340 sort of

00:45:04.700 money and

00:45:05.360 fame here

00:45:06.120 and have

00:45:07.080 the kind

00:45:07.380 of blown

00:45:07.760 out exposure

00:45:08.720 that you

00:45:09.480 linger and

00:45:10.500 catch after

00:45:11.640 it

00:45:11.900 the guy

00:45:12.460 who was

00:45:12.780 a songwriter

00:45:13.320 for one

00:45:13.700 of the

00:45:13.840 biggest

00:45:14.040 rock bands

00:45:14.700 in all

00:45:15.200 of Australia

00:45:15.780 wrote this

00:45:16.900 amazing

00:45:17.580 memoir

00:45:18.040 was like

00:45:18.620 incredible

00:45:19.220 and was

00:45:19.500 working on

00:45:19.920 that

00:45:20.220 and it's

00:45:20.900 sort of

00:45:21.120 like if

00:45:21.440 you don't

00:45:21.880 achieve

00:45:22.440 a sort

00:45:23.160 of astronomical

00:45:23.900 level of

00:45:24.860 exposure

00:45:25.400 fame and

00:45:25.980 money

00:45:26.340 you still

00:45:27.320 have to

00:45:27.600 make a

00:45:27.880 living

00:45:28.160 and making

00:45:28.680 a living

00:45:29.080 is a really

00:45:29.620 good

00:45:30.120 motivation

00:45:31.500 to continue

00:45:32.640 to search

00:45:33.160 for and find

00:45:33.640 meaning

00:45:34.080 great

00:45:34.600 yeah well

00:45:35.000 that's why

00:45:35.500 yeah

00:45:35.820 that's one

00:45:36.420 of the

00:45:36.660 problems

00:45:36.980 with having

00:45:37.780 wealth

00:45:38.280 I think

00:45:38.700 with regards

00:45:39.280 to children

00:45:39.820 is that

00:45:40.340 if you're

00:45:41.440 wealthy

00:45:41.760 your children

00:45:42.320 can be

00:45:42.740 deprived

00:45:43.180 of necessity

00:45:43.980 right

00:45:45.700 and also

00:45:46.620 usually

00:45:47.380 by the

00:45:47.880 time

00:45:48.300 one

00:45:49.680 has

00:45:49.980 attained

00:45:50.440 wealth

00:45:50.960 you've

00:45:51.940 sort of

00:45:52.260 baked

00:45:52.700 in

00:45:53.120 the

00:45:53.340 discipline

00:45:53.920 of your

00:45:55.720 and the

00:45:56.400 love for

00:45:57.000 your field

00:45:57.520 that led

00:45:57.920 to it

00:45:58.460 I mean

00:45:58.940 I guess

00:45:59.200 we can

00:45:59.620 exclude

00:45:59.940 people

00:46:00.200 who do

00:46:00.400 a job

00:46:00.760 that they

00:46:01.060 hate

00:46:01.300 forever

00:46:01.740 but

00:46:02.160 usually

00:46:02.880 people

00:46:03.200 who really

00:46:03.580 make a lot

00:46:04.060 of money

00:46:04.500 sort of

00:46:05.220 love what

00:46:05.740 they're doing

00:46:06.300 at some

00:46:06.680 level

00:46:07.080 I find

00:46:09.600 and by the

00:46:10.320 time you get

00:46:10.900 to a point

00:46:11.340 that you no

00:46:11.640 longer have

00:46:11.980 to work

00:46:12.360 you love

00:46:12.840 the work

00:46:13.260 so much

00:46:13.780 and you

00:46:14.000 start to

00:46:14.320 realize

00:46:14.660 that the

00:46:15.040 money

00:46:15.300 once people

00:46:15.800 stop chasing

00:46:16.380 you for

00:46:16.720 bills

00:46:17.200 isn't what

00:46:18.560 brings you

00:46:19.680 the happiness

00:46:20.380 that's because

00:46:21.300 you couldn't

00:46:21.780 take all

00:46:22.280 the shortcuts

00:46:22.780 when you

00:46:23.240 were younger

00:46:23.680 like

00:46:24.140 trust fund

00:46:25.080 kids can

00:46:25.700 yeah

00:46:26.120 yeah

00:46:26.140 well

00:46:26.360 the

00:46:26.600 empirical

00:46:27.660 evidence

00:46:28.180 on that

00:46:28.560 is pretty

00:46:28.900 clear

00:46:29.340 just give

00:46:32.860 me one

00:46:33.200 sec

00:46:33.440 here

00:46:33.760 there is

00:46:41.140 a relationship

00:46:41.740 between

00:46:42.180 material

00:46:42.680 well-being

00:46:43.240 and happiness

00:46:44.280 roughly speaking

00:46:45.660 or let's

00:46:46.260 say wealth

00:46:46.720 and happiness

00:46:47.280 up to the

00:46:47.840 point where

00:46:48.320 you're basically

00:46:49.660 in the

00:46:50.500 lower middle

00:46:52.000 class

00:46:52.500 I would say

00:46:53.140 and that's

00:46:53.760 basically the

00:46:54.300 point where

00:46:54.840 bill collectors

00:46:55.660 stop chasing

00:46:56.340 you around

00:46:56.920 so there's

00:46:58.480 definitely

00:46:58.840 pain in

00:46:59.660 privation

00:47:00.360 but there

00:47:01.680 isn't a

00:47:02.080 tremendous

00:47:02.460 amount of

00:47:03.060 advantage

00:47:03.560 by the

00:47:05.100 evidence

00:47:05.560 in moving

00:47:07.360 far up

00:47:08.120 the economic

00:47:08.660 ladder

00:47:09.000 beyond that

00:47:09.920 and I think

00:47:10.360 it's because

00:47:10.940 money

00:47:12.140 solves a

00:47:13.880 certain set

00:47:14.360 of problems

00:47:14.820 but the

00:47:15.200 ones it

00:47:15.680 doesn't solve

00:47:16.240 it doesn't

00:47:16.620 solve at all

00:47:17.420 it doesn't

00:47:18.980 solve love

00:47:19.640 it doesn't

00:47:20.260 solve

00:47:20.620 ensuring that

00:47:21.680 your children

00:47:22.160 are doing

00:47:22.740 well

00:47:23.080 it doesn't

00:47:23.780 solve

00:47:24.160 health

00:47:24.620 in any

00:47:26.260 final sense

00:47:27.060 the problem

00:47:27.740 of ill

00:47:28.060 health

00:47:28.440 going online

00:47:30.840 without express

00:47:31.560 VPN is like

00:47:32.400 not paying

00:47:32.900 attention to

00:47:33.400 the safety

00:47:33.760 demonstration

00:47:34.300 on a

00:47:34.660 flight

00:47:34.940 most of

00:47:35.820 the time

00:47:36.080 you'll

00:47:36.320 probably be

00:47:36.940 fine

00:47:37.300 but what

00:47:38.080 if one

00:47:38.440 day that

00:47:38.880 weird yellow

00:47:39.520 mask drops

00:47:40.160 down from

00:47:40.580 overhead and

00:47:41.300 you have no

00:47:42.060 idea what to

00:47:42.700 do

00:47:42.900 in our

00:47:43.460 hyper-connected

00:47:44.200 world your

00:47:44.780 digital privacy

00:47:45.600 isn't just a

00:47:46.280 luxury

00:47:46.580 it's a

00:47:47.340 fundamental

00:47:47.780 right

00:47:48.140 every time

00:47:48.680 you connect

00:47:49.080 to an

00:47:49.360 unsecured

00:47:49.860 network in

00:47:50.440 a cafe

00:47:50.900 hotel or

00:47:51.860 airport

00:47:52.220 you're

00:47:52.760 essentially

00:47:53.100 broadcasting

00:47:53.760 your personal

00:47:54.300 information to

00:47:55.120 anyone with

00:47:55.780 a technical

00:47:56.260 know-how to

00:47:56.880 intercept it

00:47:57.500 and let's be

00:47:58.080 clear it doesn't

00:47:59.020 take a genius

00:47:59.580 hacker to do

00:48:00.200 this with some

00:48:01.200 off-the-shelf

00:48:01.800 hardware even a

00:48:02.760 tech-savvy

00:48:03.300 teenager could

00:48:04.100 potentially access

00:48:04.920 your passwords

00:48:05.700 bank logins and

00:48:06.940 credit card

00:48:07.440 details

00:48:07.900 now you might

00:48:08.980 think what's

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00:48:10.220 who want my

00:48:10.960 data anyway

00:48:11.580 well on the

00:48:12.460 dark web your

00:48:13.200 personal information

00:48:14.140 could fetch up

00:48:14.800 to $1,000

00:48:15.740 that's right there's

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00:50:14.300 I was also thinking

00:50:18.000 with regards to

00:50:19.500 perfection and

00:50:20.180 intimacy there's

00:50:22.000 another kind of

00:50:22.940 opposition between

00:50:24.180 them which is that

00:50:25.020 if you're after

00:50:26.560 perfection you can't

00:50:27.680 have intimacy

00:50:28.440 because you have

00:50:31.120 to you mentioned

00:50:32.140 that we have this

00:50:33.500 idea that you

00:50:34.120 shouldn't settle

00:50:34.880 and people often

00:50:36.740 say that in

00:50:37.580 relationship to

00:50:38.440 their relationships

00:50:39.220 but they forget

00:50:40.160 that the person

00:50:41.340 that you're having

00:50:41.980 a relationship with

00:50:43.700 has settled for

00:50:44.560 you and and that

00:50:47.620 means that they've

00:50:48.320 settled for

00:50:48.740 imperfection in every

00:50:49.900 sense of the word

00:50:50.780 and you if you're

00:50:55.520 after perfection in

00:50:56.800 your relationship

00:50:57.480 then first of all

00:50:58.380 you have impossible

00:50:59.760 standards second

00:51:01.120 you're impossible to

00:51:02.120 live with and third

00:51:03.480 if you meet someone

00:51:04.480 that triggers that

00:51:05.520 ideal then you're

00:51:07.440 going to feel so

00:51:08.140 inferior in relationship

00:51:09.480 to them that you're

00:51:10.280 going to make a fool

00:51:10.900 of yourself that's

00:51:12.360 the classical anima

00:51:13.480 or animus possession

00:51:14.460 from the union

00:51:15.100 perspective you know

00:51:15.980 you find someone

00:51:16.640 who meets your

00:51:17.300 ideal of perfection

00:51:18.260 and then you're so

00:51:18.960 tongue-tied in their

00:51:19.780 presence that you

00:51:20.560 can't help but act

00:51:21.440 like a complete deer

00:51:24.160 in the headlights or

00:51:25.060 something equally

00:51:25.720 pathological so to

00:51:28.120 get intimacy you have

00:51:29.180 to give up that

00:51:29.920 you have to give up

00:51:31.940 that demand at least

00:51:32.900 for immediate

00:51:33.460 perfection maybe you

00:51:34.860 can work towards it

00:51:35.900 within the confines of

00:51:36.900 the relationship but

00:51:37.740 that's a whole

00:51:38.180 different thing

00:51:38.900 yeah well and from

00:51:40.300 from a thriller

00:51:41.160 perspective I mean

00:51:42.460 for me what was so

00:51:43.500 interesting in building

00:51:44.720 this with Evan is

00:51:46.740 it's like he's he's

00:51:48.080 trained as a lone wolf

00:51:49.180 right there's an orphan

00:51:50.080 program that kicked out

00:51:50.980 orphans but none of

00:51:51.900 them know who each

00:51:52.620 other is they operate

00:51:53.740 alone but he's chosen

00:51:55.600 to live in the middle

00:51:56.440 of this residential tower

00:51:57.900 in the Wilshire

00:51:58.700 corridor kind of hiding

00:51:59.840 among people but so

00:52:01.280 he's constantly among

00:52:02.200 people but if he sticks

00:52:03.700 to his normal routine

00:52:04.740 which is just training

00:52:05.820 he's got like a

00:52:06.480 hidden vault that's

00:52:07.320 like his operations

00:52:08.140 comm center that's

00:52:09.240 hidden in the back

00:52:09.960 of his you know

00:52:11.100 super modern penthouse

00:52:12.640 there's all these sort

00:52:13.860 of fantasy elements to

00:52:15.320 it which I think I

00:52:16.820 undercut enough to not

00:52:18.140 turn it into like sort

00:52:19.220 of you know weapons

00:52:20.480 porn or spy porn like

00:52:22.160 he like there's there's

00:52:23.280 there's an awareness

00:52:24.080 that that that I'm I

00:52:25.900 erode at them even as

00:52:27.300 I revel in some of

00:52:28.760 these archetypes but if

00:52:30.580 he just sticks to his

00:52:31.420 routine there's no one

00:52:33.000 there to tell him or

00:52:33.900 point out his

00:52:34.480 imperfections right when

00:52:35.800 he's on a mission it

00:52:37.200 doesn't matter he's

00:52:38.080 operating solo he's

00:52:39.180 kicking ass he has the

00:52:40.440 righteousness and the

00:52:41.400 moral the legitimate

00:52:43.240 moral superiority of

00:52:45.240 doing what is the right

00:52:46.360 thing in the protection

00:52:47.680 of other people that's

00:52:49.400 all fine there's no one

00:52:50.720 to literally gaze on

00:52:52.000 him or even look at

00:52:52.960 him and notice where

00:52:54.580 his imperfections are

00:52:55.500 notice where he's

00:52:56.180 tongue-tied notice what

00:52:57.600 skills that there are

00:52:58.460 that he's lacking if his

00:52:59.580 life stays in that

00:53:00.380 narrow lane but he

00:53:01.920 doesn't want his life to

00:53:02.900 just be in that lane

00:53:03.580 but every time he

00:53:04.320 widens it out there's

00:53:05.340 all these complications

00:53:06.280 where it's like what do

00:53:07.400 you do with an unruly

00:53:09.180 eight-year-old who's

00:53:10.080 asking you inappropriate

00:53:11.000 questions these are

00:53:12.220 things that his training

00:53:12.960 wasn't for and there's a

00:53:15.160 real interest in that and

00:53:16.600 one of the other things I

00:53:17.560 wanted to add is you

00:53:18.320 talked about the the

00:53:19.320 female or you know

00:53:20.800 erotica or the or that

00:53:22.220 that women tend to read in

00:53:24.240 the the types of monsters

00:53:25.820 which I love that the

00:53:26.740 surgeon is included in them

00:53:28.920 and you know I'm sure a lot

00:53:30.000 of them can we can start

00:53:30.860 combining them so you get

00:53:31.760 like a werewolf surgeon

00:53:32.900 you can really start

00:53:33.680 upping the ante but I

00:53:35.380 think one of the things

00:53:35.880 that's really interesting

00:53:36.700 in terms of what

00:53:38.040 constitutes a successful

00:53:39.300 balance to me it's not

00:53:41.660 also the full taming of

00:53:43.380 the monstrous of

00:53:45.500 perfectionism whether like

00:53:47.180 in this instance we're

00:53:47.900 talking about that being

00:53:48.720 from the male side of

00:53:50.480 it it's also like I had a

00:53:52.740 question that was I did

00:53:54.320 an interview yesterday and

00:53:55.320 somebody asked me who

00:53:56.220 knows who knows me and my

00:53:57.440 wife pretty well so does

00:53:58.460 your wife get does she

00:54:01.220 get upset when you're

00:54:01.920 like okay honey I'm off

00:54:03.020 to like the Mexican

00:54:03.800 jungles to go down class

00:54:05.700 four whitewater rafts to

00:54:06.980 do research or I'm gonna

00:54:08.080 go you know like I just

00:54:09.780 was on a range in Vegas

00:54:11.780 shooting a lot of insane

00:54:13.740 weaponry or you know

00:54:15.500 when I'm when I'm doing

00:54:16.500 these sort of more

00:54:17.220 dangerous elements that

00:54:19.200 are for research and it

00:54:21.140 was interesting because I

00:54:21.820 hadn't been asked that

00:54:23.140 that specifically but I

00:54:24.360 was like well I was a

00:54:25.480 writer when I met my

00:54:26.600 wife and she liked that

00:54:27.740 and knew that and one

00:54:29.400 of the primary aims is

00:54:31.420 if that's something that

00:54:32.260 she liked in me she

00:54:33.280 that's the last thing she

00:54:34.460 wants to erode in me now

00:54:36.200 like we also have a

00:54:37.120 relationship where like

00:54:38.000 obviously there's things

00:54:38.840 like if there are things

00:54:39.580 about me that are

00:54:40.540 annoying to my

00:54:41.300 perfectionism or need to

00:54:42.460 be reined in that's a

00:54:44.600 good discussion but it

00:54:45.680 also doesn't mean that

00:54:46.580 you want to hollow out

00:54:49.800 the aspect of the of the

00:54:52.460 perfectionist drive or the

00:54:54.080 aspects that involve sort

00:54:55.520 of dangerous with danger

00:54:57.140 having one foot in

00:54:58.020 monstrosity from your

00:54:59.880 spouse or partner in

00:55:00.760 either direction it's

00:55:01.960 like you know my wife and

00:55:02.800 I just genuinely like

00:55:04.160 each other we don't want

00:55:05.060 to erode in each other

00:55:06.240 those things that cause the

00:55:07.500 initial attraction and

00:55:09.000 it's interesting because I

00:55:09.600 think that's something you

00:55:10.400 see a lot in marriages I

00:55:13.100 don't know if it's

00:55:13.620 particularly in America

00:55:14.840 where you know you get the

00:55:16.880 sort of domineering

00:55:17.920 controlling wife and then

00:55:19.300 the husband is like the

00:55:20.260 little boy getting away

00:55:21.320 with things and you know

00:55:22.760 trying to get things done

00:55:23.780 and there's this imbalance

00:55:25.060 that happens really quickly

00:55:26.200 as they push each other

00:55:27.420 into these roles and

00:55:28.580 forget the very things

00:55:29.800 that were attractive to

00:55:31.060 begin with yeah well you

00:55:32.020 see that you see that

00:55:32.960 operating in the other

00:55:33.780 direction although I would

00:55:35.120 say in a different way

00:55:36.220 because you can see

00:55:37.200 husbands who punish or

00:55:39.420 fail to reward their

00:55:40.600 wives for being

00:55:41.300 attractive even though

00:55:42.880 yeah the the domineering

00:55:44.300 husband yeah you said

00:55:45.300 something once that stuck

00:55:46.420 with me with I think

00:55:47.920 someone was bragging

00:55:48.800 about how they never

00:55:49.620 clean the house or

00:55:50.520 something some such

00:55:51.800 thing yeah and you

00:55:52.880 said well if you turn

00:55:54.100 your wife into a maid

00:55:55.060 then you'll be married

00:55:55.940 to a maid yes yes I

00:55:57.480 think it was toilets

00:55:58.260 actually I'm not the

00:55:59.260 sort of guy who cleans

00:56:00.120 the toilets I think I

00:56:01.140 said yeah you're the

00:56:01.860 sort of guy who makes

00:56:02.660 your wife clean the

00:56:03.500 toilets right yeah

00:56:06.380 yeah well that's the

00:56:07.600 thing is that it's also

00:56:09.620 very difficult within a

00:56:10.860 relationship to

00:56:11.660 continually reward your

00:56:13.080 partner for the traits

00:56:14.260 that make them

00:56:14.820 attractive because that

00:56:15.820 also makes them

00:56:16.440 attractive to other

00:56:17.220 people and so if

00:56:18.880 you're concerned in any

00:56:20.680 way about your

00:56:21.560 failing attractiveness

00:56:22.820 or if you're jealous

00:56:23.740 or resentful then you

00:56:25.520 may come to punish

00:56:26.740 your partner for what

00:56:28.320 makes them attractive

00:56:29.120 and of course that's

00:56:30.100 that's death because

00:56:31.220 you'll also have

00:56:33.080 contempt for them and

00:56:34.320 for you if if you get

00:56:35.640 away with that but it

00:56:37.040 happens a lot yeah

00:56:39.020 well you know it goes

00:56:40.660 down to the we had

00:56:42.120 we've had this

00:56:42.780 conversation before that

00:56:43.980 at the end of the day

00:56:44.760 there are there are no

00:56:46.860 decisions that aren't

00:56:47.820 fundamentally moral there's

00:56:49.180 no good decisions when

00:56:50.260 you're looking at

00:56:50.820 something of like well

00:56:51.680 this is 90% moral but

00:56:54.980 10% shady but I can

00:56:56.500 reap huge financial

00:56:57.400 rewards I don't think

00:56:58.500 you'll get away with

00:56:59.200 it and likewise you

00:57:00.900 know within a marriage

00:57:01.840 you know if you have a

00:57:03.540 spouse who you're

00:57:04.320 denigrating or you're

00:57:06.040 concerned about their

00:57:07.040 attractiveness because

00:57:08.600 of your own insecurity

00:57:10.060 and you haven't put that

00:57:11.140 to rest and you're

00:57:11.920 unwilling to look at

00:57:12.660 that that will cost you

00:57:14.160 you know I think about

00:57:15.520 it a lot as pertains to

00:57:16.720 writing because I think a

00:57:19.240 lot that the qualities

00:57:20.480 for me at least that

00:57:21.920 that that make me a

00:57:25.040 better writer are the

00:57:25.940 same ones that make me a

00:57:26.680 better man and a better

00:57:27.880 human and it's not

00:57:30.200 something that people

00:57:30.680 talk a lot about but a

00:57:31.980 lot of it is you know if

00:57:33.120 you're if I'm in a

00:57:33.900 conversation it's like

00:57:35.040 can I acknowledge what

00:57:36.460 my shortcomings are what

00:57:37.520 my flaws are can I

00:57:38.840 acknowledge in an

00:57:39.460 argument what's going on

00:57:40.460 can I pay attention to

00:57:41.340 people enough to

00:57:42.720 recognize small moments of

00:57:44.580 vulnerabilities and to try

00:57:46.260 to honor or respect

00:57:48.140 those those are all the

00:57:50.000 things in writing that

00:57:51.080 make people connect to

00:57:52.280 character those are all

00:57:53.280 the things in writing that

00:57:54.200 you need to round out a

00:57:55.440 character and I remember

00:57:56.780 when I was look I

00:57:57.480 started really young and

00:57:58.460 had a lot of luck early I

00:57:59.640 started my first book I

00:58:00.580 was 19 I sold it I think

00:58:02.320 it was 22 23 and you

00:58:04.700 know there's stuff in

00:58:05.280 there that's awful like no

00:58:06.340 one should ever be

00:58:07.020 accountable for anything

00:58:08.000 that they thought when

00:58:08.780 they were 19 but you know

00:58:10.320 I have a line in there

00:58:11.200 where it's like he was the

00:58:12.080 best of the best you

00:58:13.340 know about like an FBI

00:58:14.060 agent and it's like those

00:58:15.840 are the people we don't

00:58:16.780 like you know so like as

00:58:18.180 I get older a lot of

00:58:19.260 this trust I put in

00:58:20.260 characters are the times

00:58:22.420 where you say something

00:58:23.620 out of a more base

00:58:25.040 instinct and then you

00:58:26.180 feel like shit about it

00:58:27.540 like that's something that

00:58:28.800 makes you relate to a

00:58:29.660 character like I did this

00:58:31.020 thing and I said

00:58:31.760 something I reacted in

00:58:33.400 anger I have a petty

00:58:35.240 jealousy but that I'm

00:58:37.040 aware of and I acted

00:58:38.080 badly and I feel I feel

00:58:39.400 badly for it I wish I

00:58:40.740 could have acted better

00:58:41.620 but you need to have

00:58:43.540 the the you know the

00:58:44.620 the a pretty you need

00:58:46.920 to iris pretty wide

00:58:48.080 opening to take that

00:58:49.440 input in if you want to

00:58:51.180 be talented artist because

00:58:52.840 you're trying to capture

00:58:53.580 all of those things which

00:58:54.540 means you have to look at

00:58:55.580 them in yourself not just

00:58:56.640 in other people

00:58:57.340 it's funny it's something

00:58:59.780 you see in good

00:59:00.620 comedians and I was

00:59:02.020 watching Louis CK

00:59:03.100 recently and like he

00:59:04.920 definitely goes too far

00:59:06.120 quite often and one of

00:59:08.280 the things about Louis CK

00:59:09.740 that's and I you also

00:59:11.200 see this as Sarah

00:59:11.980 Silverman I think where

00:59:14.220 either of them they'll

00:59:17.280 something will come into

00:59:18.260 their head and they'll

00:59:19.860 say it and they know

00:59:20.720 perfectly well that they've

00:59:21.980 gone too far but they're

00:59:23.400 not going to not say it

00:59:24.520 and then they have the

00:59:25.280 good graces to be like

00:59:26.860 self-disgusted I would say

00:59:30.040 yeah

00:59:30.400 essentially they actually said

00:59:32.420 it you know and Louis CK

00:59:34.020 it's a mix of like self

00:59:35.500 disgust and a hint of pride

00:59:37.100 yeah exactly at the same

00:59:38.820 time but I mean Louis CK has

00:59:40.300 the good graces to be

00:59:41.340 embarrassed at least 20% of

00:59:43.280 the time he's performing

00:59:44.580 and for good reason too

00:59:46.360 yeah yeah like the Cinnabon in

00:59:48.300 the airport yeah yeah yeah

00:59:50.040 yeah no he's yeah but I mean

00:59:52.080 it's a big part of it is like

00:59:53.860 if you want to shut down

00:59:55.060 self-awareness everything

00:59:57.240 shuts down and we're talking

00:59:58.920 about with aging we're talking

01:00:00.020 about with marriage and

01:00:00.760 relationships but I'm also

01:00:01.740 talking about if you wanted

01:00:02.640 if you actually want to

01:00:03.720 engage in an endeavor that

01:00:05.080 is interesting whether that's

01:00:07.600 writing or teaching or being

01:00:09.080 a psychologist or being you

01:00:10.500 know I mean fill in the

01:00:11.300 blank for anything that you

01:00:12.920 want to engage in a way

01:00:14.060 that's new and unique you

01:00:16.380 better reflect you better

01:00:17.720 think on yourself you better

01:00:18.880 not armor yourself solely in

01:00:20.400 ideology right you better be

01:00:23.620 able to maintain a sort of

01:00:26.380 openness to the world even as

01:00:28.100 you're learning you better not

01:00:29.240 get too arrogant like if you

01:00:30.460 go down that checklist I find

01:00:32.560 a lot of them really apply to

01:00:34.640 my writing in ways that that

01:00:36.020 are that are more direct than

01:00:37.520 I ever would have thought

01:00:38.320 would be the case I didn't

01:00:39.380 start kind of thinking about

01:00:40.320 this till I was in my 30s

01:00:42.960 which is also probably around

01:00:44.320 the time that I started

01:00:45.100 becoming a better human but you

01:00:48.100 know to really think about

01:00:49.160 like getting caught short at

01:00:51.740 times or engaging in something

01:00:54.060 where I'm so adamant that I'm

01:00:55.240 right about it and then

01:00:56.160 reflecting on it afterwards

01:00:57.240 realizing that I'm wrong it's

01:00:58.300 like there's so much fodder

01:00:59.920 that's where all the gold is

01:01:01.220 in writing that's where all

01:01:02.900 those pieces are and really

01:01:04.620 paying attention to people and

01:01:06.080 not overlooking their own

01:01:08.500 quiet everyday tragedies and

01:01:11.560 recognizing their everyday

01:01:13.020 triumphs because that's what

01:01:14.760 rounds out a character if you

01:01:16.200 can capture that all of a

01:01:17.280 sudden you feel like you're

01:01:18.000 reading something that's alive

01:01:19.200 and if you don't you're reading

01:01:21.000 something that you feel like is

01:01:21.920 fill in the blanks you know and

01:01:24.220 especially with with a form like

01:01:26.020 like a thriller or crime fiction

01:01:28.200 which I'm far from denigrating I

01:01:32.000 think it's an incredible form

01:01:33.400 yeah well that's something that's

01:01:35.000 interesting too is that you that's

01:01:37.980 a form that you've stuck with in

01:01:39.440 many ways throughout your writing

01:01:40.880 career and that's been about 20 20

01:01:43.960 you have 23 books now I have 7 17 or

01:01:49.300 18 out maybe and three more in the

01:01:51.560 pipeline yeah okay so and you've

01:01:53.640 been basically putting out

01:01:54.640 something like a book a year yeah

01:01:57.380 so there's there's two places we

01:01:59.480 could go with that one is that I'd

01:02:01.940 like to talk with you a little bit

01:02:03.080 about how you've actually managed to

01:02:04.740 have a successful career as a

01:02:06.280 writer because that's a very

01:02:07.320 difficult thing to pull off and the

01:02:09.320 other issue is why you've you've

01:02:13.440 inserted yourself in this very limited

01:02:15.520 form genre form and I'm curious

01:02:19.820 about why that one and also what it

01:02:23.160 is about the genre and and the fact

01:02:25.180 that it's you know very very

01:02:27.180 commercial and very attractive in in

01:02:29.380 a sort of I wouldn't say easy way but

01:02:31.660 a very accessible way it's very

01:02:34.800 accessible to people and so what's

01:02:37.080 what's the attraction like why not

01:02:39.460 something that's arguably more

01:02:41.160 literary well I don't I mean the

01:02:44.320 first thing is is it's like it's not

01:02:45.920 selected like I can only write stuff

01:02:48.600 that I feel in my gut that I need to

01:02:51.280 write and fortunately for me from a

01:02:55.020 financial perspective that tends to

01:02:57.180 be stuff that's highly commercial but

01:03:00.040 you know one of the things I think

01:03:01.040 about like for me that the gold

01:03:02.560 standard is always Hitchcock like no

01:03:04.180 one's like oh is he commercial or was

01:03:06.640 he a critical success and what's

01:03:09.700 interesting is you know you talk we

01:03:11.020 talk about all the stuff that we only

01:03:12.200 see in hindsight like you follow only

01:03:14.240 the things that are of interest and

01:03:16.260 then in hindsight they all make sense

01:03:17.720 so right so in college I studied English

01:03:19.560 and psychology as you know you were

01:03:21.340 there and I got really fascinated with

01:03:24.620 Shakespeare and tragedy in particular

01:03:26.240 and it's like okay so I'm studying

01:03:27.700 Jungian analysis of Shakespeare and

01:03:29.560 tragedy all that is is about narrative

01:03:32.260 all of it is narrative I only chose it

01:03:35.580 because I was interested I got I was

01:03:36.920 very into Freud you know those case

01:03:38.480 studies read like short stories but so

01:03:40.640 it's like let's take Shakespeare okay so

01:03:43.700 why would Shakespeare choose this form

01:03:45.860 that is limited right everything's got

01:03:48.500 five back he basically wrote a highly

01:03:50.660 convention bound highly structured

01:03:53.320 narrative driven form sometimes tipping

01:03:56.260 into propaganda that deals with lust

01:03:58.960 intrigue and murder designed to sell

01:04:00.900 out the most you know he's the most seats

01:04:03.700 in the globe theater to put asses in

01:04:05.460 chairs he had no interest in enduring

01:04:07.180 literary value you know a lot of people

01:04:10.560 have interest in enduring literary

01:04:11.720 value don't enduringly you know don't

01:04:14.640 tend to endure is another discussion but

01:04:16.720 I mean you cut that globe yeah but I mean

01:04:20.620 you cut the globe theater in half and

01:04:22.580 it's a perfect cross-section of

01:04:23.840 Elizabethan society so I'll have a joke

01:04:25.880 from of its metamorphosis and then

01:04:27.600 he'll make a dick joke for the

01:04:28.980 groundlings he's trying to appeal

01:04:30.800 everywhere and within the the the within

01:04:35.760 the constraints of the form there's a

01:04:38.680 liberation so he takes the Jew of Malta

01:04:40.920 and turns it into Merchant of Venice

01:04:42.460 in very few original plots right and so

01:04:46.460 there's this reworking of trying to do

01:04:49.020 something that's great within a form

01:04:50.760 that's recognizable but I think it's

01:04:52.360 recognizable because it's pleasingly

01:04:53.940 archetypal and people forget you know

01:04:56.440 look this Camus the stranger was bit was

01:04:59.320 inspired by James M. Cain's the postman

01:05:02.340 always rings twice like these forms are

01:05:04.960 are you know you want to talk about

01:05:06.480 existentialism

01:05:07.480 well you certainly see that in Chandler

01:05:11.040 oh yeah you know so there's an enormous

01:05:15.480 amount and it's been it's been said quite

01:05:17.200 often that that noir is modern tragedy

01:05:20.200 but instead of falling from the throne

01:05:21.880 you're falling from the curb into the

01:05:23.500 gutter right you're just starting lower

01:05:25.140 it's also been said that crime fiction

01:05:27.160 is replaced the social model and if you

01:05:29.780 look at you know you look at like

01:05:33.160 Mystic River from Dennis Lehane it's

01:05:35.600 like that that's such an interesting

01:05:37.280 story right you know I wrote a book

01:05:39.020 called Telling the Lies takes place in

01:05:40.480 San Francisco that is built around a

01:05:42.740 thriller but it's all about class and

01:05:44.640 society and ethics in San Francisco and

01:05:47.240 in a weird way for me when I'm playing

01:05:48.920 with these notions of intimacy versus

01:05:50.700 perfection when I'm playing with this

01:05:52.940 notion of you know aging versus focus the

01:05:59.160 themes around humanity about being

01:06:01.200 better if I can wrap them in what I hope

01:06:04.020 is an enormously entertaining page

01:06:06.640 turning story that's propulsive that

01:06:10.380 people want to read that's the kind of

01:06:12.900 thing that I most enjoy and engage in

01:06:15.100 that for me sort of the ultimate win I

01:06:17.060 mean I get to write about everything that

01:06:18.280 I want to write about in as exciting and

01:06:21.780 compelling fashion that I can manage

01:06:23.960 within the restraints of my skill and I

01:06:25.960 don't view that as having a ceiling you

01:06:28.000 know I don't think anyone's gonna come

01:06:28.880 along and go you know look Macbeth you

01:06:32.000 know pretty lacking on the on the

01:06:33.900 quality scale you know you look at and

01:06:36.940 so there's always an aim for it and also

01:06:39.400 I just love thrillers you know and sort

01:06:41.340 of write a thriller with more meat on the

01:06:43.260 bones where I'm really stretching and

01:06:44.960 there's a number of people who do it in

01:06:46.540 the form it's like I'm the only one it's

01:06:50.200 just a great it's a great focus and you

01:06:52.960 know again if you don't focus on

01:06:54.320 something where do you wind up yeah and

01:06:57.200 also look this goes back to narrative

01:06:59.500 to archetypal narrative too like I

01:07:01.260 believe that there are fundamentally

01:07:02.620 fundamental story structures and that

01:07:05.320 are as selected for as opposable thumbs

01:07:07.260 and islands you know and I think you

01:07:08.940 know you find a tribe that's been you

01:07:11.380 know in the middle of the Amazon that's

01:07:12.780 had no exposure they'll have islands

01:07:14.320 opposable thumbs and a hero archetype this

01:07:17.300 is the archetype Gilgamesh is a thriller you

01:07:19.960 know Beowulf is a kick-ass thriller

01:07:21.660 that's what those things are and that's

01:07:24.180 the form that just appeals to me you

01:07:25.860 know yeah Moses the Exodus is the

01:07:27.920 thriller yeah the tale you know I look I

01:07:31.200 collect Faulkner paperbacks from the

01:07:32.980 50s and they're insane like they have

01:07:35.760 these Harlequin type covers you know like

01:07:38.720 another from America's leading purveyor of

01:07:41.360 you know murder and lust William Faulkner

01:07:43.480 I mean they were packaged as such but you

01:07:45.480 read Sanctuary with the courtroom case

01:07:48.000 and the corncob I mean good god there's

01:07:50.220 you know he's he's got he's he's up to

01:07:52.500 his elbows in in certain genre

01:07:55.420 conventions there's a reason he went to

01:07:56.820 Hollywood and adapted Chandler novels

01:07:58.660 right right right you know so for me it's

01:08:03.000 all about I'm a story star

01:08:04.700 yes yeah well he also did the big sleep I

01:08:09.200 want to say oh I need to be fat I need

01:08:12.180 someone to be fat checked out to make sure I

01:08:14.120 got have that one right but you know I'm

01:08:16.480 I do I do yeah that's true yeah at the end

01:08:19.580 of the day though like I I am a structure

01:08:22.040 slot I think structure is essential I don't

01:08:25.120 be a structure slot watch me watch me

01:08:29.880 structure slot and and and that that'll

01:08:34.040 be my website instead of young women who

01:08:36.440 are symmetrically perfect and represent a

01:08:38.360 particular Jungian ideal but I feel like I

01:08:43.500 like to know where I am within a story you

01:08:46.300 know I like to I like to know where the

01:08:48.180 terms are I can I like to play with them

01:08:50.000 lives with Batman we talked about once you

01:08:52.300 have the conventions you can start to play

01:08:54.480 with them you can start to find more

01:08:55.920 elbow room within them yeah well that's

01:08:57.980 a strange thing too is that you know

01:08:59.920 people often think about creative freedom

01:09:03.640 as the freedom from any structural

01:09:05.220 impositions whatsoever and that's that's

01:09:07.300 the Peter Pan thing or that what did you

01:09:08.960 call your character Castle oh Casseroi

01:09:12.360 Casseroi yeah without structure and

01:09:16.560 without limits you have freedom it's like

01:09:18.380 you don't just have chaos well and I have

01:09:21.340 like you know having written all these

01:09:22.960 novels in The Nowhere Man there's one

01:09:24.720 novel that something really I'm sorry

01:09:27.580 there's one chapter that something

01:09:28.860 really bad happens to Evan and each

01:09:31.560 chapter in the orphan accident in The

01:09:33.620 Nowhere Man has a title that's taken

01:09:35.440 from something in the chapter usually a

01:09:38.640 sort of humorous way that it can be

01:09:40.860 double read but it's a phrase from the

01:09:42.320 chapter as the chapter heading and so one

01:09:44.360 of the chapters after this horrific thing

01:09:46.380 happened to Evan is just cold and the

01:09:48.720 whole chapter is just the word cold that's

01:09:51.280 the whole chapter it's a one-word

01:09:52.420 chapter and then you move on so it's

01:09:55.100 that's not conventional writing I'm not

01:09:57.640 you know there's ways that you can start

01:10:00.380 to play once you're within it but you

01:10:02.740 know I don't want to write a whole you

01:10:05.020 know book in haiku and like like the

01:10:07.900 mass experimentation or you know I wrote

01:10:09.660 a book called The Crime Writer where I

01:10:11.760 literally it's a crime writer who lands

01:10:13.680 on something that's in the middle of

01:10:15.340 seemingly one of his own stories a

01:10:17.580 disaster situation and he realizes that

01:10:19.900 in order to understand what happened he

01:10:21.120 has to write it down so then I

01:10:22.560 introduce a typewriter font that's the

01:10:25.060 first sentence of the book that we read

01:10:27.340 or the first paragraph of the book and

01:10:28.860 then at a certain point his editor comes

01:10:30.340 in and has handwritten edits in the

01:10:32.700 margins of the typewriter so that we see

01:10:35.360 the development process of the writing

01:10:37.260 which mirrors the process of his own

01:10:39.840 writing which is the story of what

01:10:41.560 happened to him which is the novel that

01:10:42.800 we're reading so there's all these ways

01:10:44.900 that you can play with in the form to

01:10:46.700 make it interesting but at the end of

01:10:48.020 the day I want to know where I am in a

01:10:49.940 story that's what always appeals to me

01:10:52.160 all right so look let's let's I'd like

01:10:55.560 you to talk a little bit about about your

01:10:57.860 career from a practical sense too because

01:11:00.940 you've been able to maintain it for a

01:11:02.500 long time so I think people would be

01:11:06.140 interested to know what your typical how

01:11:09.420 you learn to write and what what your

01:11:12.780 typical day looks like or has looked like

01:11:15.360 across the last 20 years because one of

01:11:17.820 the strange things about being an

01:11:19.500 independent artist is that you don't

01:11:25.800 have those external constraints

01:11:27.480 precisely driving you the same way that

01:11:29.460 you do if you have to go to work every

01:11:30.920 day if you have to be up at nine for

01:11:32.520 someone else and it's very easy for

01:11:36.000 people to drift in a situation like that

01:11:38.220 because you can always put off what you

01:11:40.000 have to do until tomorrow or you can

01:11:41.940 also always substitute the long medium

01:11:44.800 or longer term ambition for something

01:11:47.000 short term that needs to be done right

01:11:49.040 now so let's start out by how you learn

01:11:52.520 to write from well I never took a I never

01:11:56.460 took a writing course or read a book on

01:11:58.300 writing I mean how you learn to write a

01:12:00.120 novel is you read you know 2,000 novels

01:12:03.980 and then you try and write one and screw it

01:12:06.200 up like that's it same with screenplays you

01:12:09.720 know watch a million movies love the

01:12:11.380 thing itself my first book I wrote a

01:12:13.920 disastrous first draft I mean the the end

01:12:16.520 of each chapter was better than the

01:12:18.140 beginning literally from what I've learned

01:12:20.220 while writing the chapter but again

01:12:22.060 don't be afraid I've had two things that

01:12:24.180 have benefited me a lot one is I'm not

01:12:26.280 afraid to fail I'm not afraid to embarrass

01:12:28.500 myself and I also don't have any delay

01:12:32.820 between wanting to try something and

01:12:34.340 trying it like I don't hold back and

01:12:36.540 wait and think about it and I just was

01:12:38.380 like I want to write a novel I'm 19 I

01:12:41.040 think I know more than I do I'm just

01:12:42.580 going to jump in and do it I wrote it I

01:12:44.280 had a really shitty first draft the

01:12:46.140 vomit draft I sat down and took it apart

01:12:48.220 like an engine block and then I looked

01:12:50.460 at it all and reconstructed it okay so

01:12:53.720 built it in something apart what do you

01:12:55.580 mean exactly tell us kind of just kind of

01:12:58.400 chapter by chapter and like this plot

01:13:00.540 isn't working and this is too long a

01:13:02.460 stretch without action and this

01:13:03.720 character isn't developed enough you

01:13:05.560 know I took the chapters out and it

01:13:07.220 felt like I did it you know my first

01:13:09.500 draft was half the length of the final

01:13:10.940 novel it wasn't till my third novel that

01:13:14.780 I wrote a rough draft that could

01:13:16.900 constitute a novel on its own that

01:13:19.980 functioned you know so part of what you

01:13:21.840 were doing was separating the production

01:13:23.640 end of the process from the editing end I

01:13:26.780 mean that's what what that's what a bad

01:13:28.480 first draft does is you allow you yeah

01:13:30.860 you know and then as I get further

01:13:33.300 along it's like I like my first draft

01:13:35.760 now is what my tenth draft used to be

01:13:38.080 right it keeps it keeps sort of evolving

01:13:41.860 but then you know I'll try something new

01:13:43.420 like orphan x I did more rewriting on

01:13:45.300 than any of my previous six books it

01:13:47.900 still wasn't anywhere close to my first

01:13:50.160 you know three novels but if I really was

01:13:55.440 doing something new I was building an

01:13:56.760 entire character an entire mythology and

01:13:59.780 launching this big new franchise into the

01:14:02.800 world and so in some ways I overrode it

01:14:05.500 and pulled stuff back that I save for

01:14:07.080 future books I mean I'd say that's one

01:14:09.520 part of it the other is I think it might

01:14:11.160 have been advice you gave me when I was

01:14:13.180 shut I don't know 18 but you said when it

01:14:16.460 comes to writing and if you didn't say it

01:14:18.480 we can just pretend that you did we'll

01:14:19.680 give you credit for it I'll wait I'll wait

01:14:21.140 until I hear whether or not it's okay

01:14:22.860 that's that way I'm taking credit for it

01:14:26.080 yeah yeah then you leave me if it's not

01:14:27.900 wise then I'll be like Wile E. Coyote out

01:14:29.860 over the cliff and you can just watch me

01:14:31.500 fall yeah no but you said there's always

01:14:34.300 going to be a dozen things that are more

01:14:36.640 pressing to do than right always and if

01:14:39.440 you don't decide to make that time sort of

01:14:42.380 holy and protected nobody else will do that

01:14:45.040 for you and that's essential and I was

01:14:47.000 already kind of into my first book and

01:14:49.200 doing it and I thought that's exactly

01:14:50.880 right like it's always more pressing to

01:14:53.980 clean the house or pick up your dry

01:14:55.820 cleaning or you know pick up one of your

01:14:58.300 kids if you don't just carve it out it's

01:15:00.240 not like I'm a surgeon that I'm in an

01:15:01.900 office one of those monstrous surgeons

01:15:03.860 where I'm in an office and no one can

01:15:06.360 reach me and my day is sass I mean at

01:15:08.280 any time right now I could be disturbed

01:15:10.580 all the time by anyone my phone can ring

01:15:13.440 so unless I say this is my writing

01:15:15.080 schedule I'm unplugged you know kids

01:15:17.520 leave me alone unless someone is on fire

01:15:19.520 or the house is on fire and it is thus I

01:15:22.520 need the same amount of space that I

01:15:24.140 would have were I an accountant or a

01:15:26.160 psychologist or you know a doctor or a

01:15:30.180 lawyer you know and so I had to make

01:15:32.080 that time kind of holy or sacrosanct and

01:15:35.820 then I would say the other thing is that

01:15:38.020 mattered a lot as I realized early on

01:15:39.840 that the one thing I'll say there's two

01:15:41.900 other pieces that I'll say the one

01:15:43.880 thing that I could control absolutely

01:15:45.680 was discipline that's the only

01:15:47.700 controllable thing and it's such an

01:15:49.700 impossible field and so you have to

01:15:52.040 wait for luck and I had a lot of luck

01:15:53.840 early which I don't say with false

01:15:56.740 humility or fishing for compliments

01:15:58.320 like my first book was good and I think

01:15:59.980 it was sellable and there's a lot of

01:16:01.460 first books that are good and sellable

01:16:02.700 you never know when that luck's gonna

01:16:04.660 come and I thought in sort of work

01:16:07.780 ethics if I flap my wings as hard as I

01:16:10.160 could that I'm just bumping along the

01:16:11.600 ceiling all the time the one moment

01:16:13.920 that that hatch opens that the lucky

01:16:16.100 break comes I was gonna be right there

01:16:17.960 to fly through it and so from day one I

01:16:20.520 was like I'm going full speed all the

01:16:22.740 way no matter what and I still do I mean

01:16:25.060 I still feel like the one thing I can

01:16:26.840 control is I've never been laid on a

01:16:28.460 deadline you know and I write all day

01:16:30.920 every day I've built it up like a

01:16:32.760 muscle so how much time do you spend

01:16:35.500 writing in a day now at minimum I write

01:16:38.460 from 6 to 4 30 or 5 on longer days if

01:16:42.120 I'm on deadline or if I'm near the end

01:16:44.180 of a book and I can smell it it'll be

01:16:46.080 13 14 15 sometimes 16 hours and I've had

01:16:49.440 spells of like I said I once wrote a

01:16:53.220 script for a TV show in one 23 hour

01:16:55.340 sitting because there was a risk that a

01:16:57.620 micro economy in Vancouver would shut

01:16:59.960 down if I did it if there's a shut down

01:17:01.480 the show it's problematic so I can go

01:17:04.980 when I go but at a minimum I'm writing

01:17:07.300 all day every day you know with a break

01:17:09.140 to work out in the middle and the other

01:17:11.080 thing I'd say is really interesting is

01:17:12.640 like you know it's funny seeing which

01:17:15.540 values get so people look at my kind of

01:17:18.000 resume and I went to all these fancy

01:17:20.380 schools and people always ask me like

01:17:22.260 they ask me about Shakespeare they ask

01:17:23.600 me about my educational background okay

01:17:25.220 you studied English in psych here you

01:17:27.140 went did a master's in England I think in

01:17:29.720 some ways one of the biggest values for

01:17:31.800 me was being was came from being an

01:17:33.620 athlete because I was a pole vaulter in

01:17:35.960 college right I played soccer growing up

01:17:37.640 I played a little bit of soccer in

01:17:38.940 England and writing is like training it's

01:17:42.780 like working out it's building a muscle

01:17:44.320 and as with pole vaulting when I was

01:17:46.920 training day 27 when the heptagonal

01:17:50.360 championships were on day 275 I have a

01:17:54.120 hundred things more important to do than

01:17:55.540 train on day 27 and know that I have to

01:17:57.660 go that far that's like day 27 of writing

01:17:59.840 a novel we interrupt your playlist to

01:18:02.100 bring you breaking news Tim's classic

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01:18:10.480 same plus tax Canada only limited time

01:18:12.520 only terms apply see app for details

01:18:14.080 you know and so there's a lot of things I

01:18:18.840 think people undervalue they value sports

01:18:21.280 now for health and for you know being

01:18:23.960 active and being well-rounded but we

01:18:25.380 don't tend to talk about the values that

01:18:27.320 they instill and a lot of it's like

01:18:29.380 discipline long-term planning you know

01:18:32.080 like I when I was in high school I

01:18:33.800 sucked at pole vaulting I mean my whole

01:18:36.680 first year I was too small to bend the

01:18:38.180 pole sophomore year I was awful and

01:18:40.100 we're talking it was a three-year

01:18:41.440 process to build up to start jumping at

01:18:43.900 a high level and eventually you know at

01:18:46.220 a national level and then in college but

01:18:48.060 it takes a lot of discipline and so

01:18:50.520 there's the discipline aspect of

01:18:52.660 writing I think is really important and

01:18:54.520 then you know for people starting out

01:18:56.440 one of the things I say is like pick a

01:18:58.520 certain amount of time that you do no

01:18:59.660 matter what and force yourself to get

01:19:01.980 stuff on the page and if you say all I

01:19:03.940 can find is an hour a day or two hours a

01:19:06.000 day or I'm sorry two hours twice a week

01:19:09.440 that will soon turn into two hours and

01:19:11.900 15 minutes or two hours and two and a

01:19:13.700 half hours it will expand itself as your

01:19:16.160 discipline goes on it's like running and

01:19:18.460 the other thing I say is that look I

01:19:21.320 meet a lot of people who want to be

01:19:22.680 writers and I meet very few who

01:19:24.340 actually want to write I love writing I

01:19:28.840 actually love the writing process if you

01:19:31.220 don't don't do this there's a million

01:19:33.800 other things you can do and make more

01:19:35.700 money and it's easier and you can be

01:19:37.360 happier so when you say you love it what

01:19:39.760 do you mean exactly I mean that doesn't

01:19:41.660 mean it's easy by any stretch of the

01:19:43.340 imagination no what is it you love about

01:19:45.960 it and exactly what do you mean by that

01:19:48.020 well it's it's the one place I really

01:19:54.000 clearly lose time you know when things

01:19:56.400 are going well an hour and a half two

01:19:58.160 hours will pass that happens to me when

01:19:59.420 I'm on the soccer field too is like I

01:20:01.380 just it's I feel fully inhabited in

01:20:04.560 something else aside from me in a manner

01:20:06.740 that is productive and I feel like I

01:20:09.580 don't I'm not one for getting precious

01:20:11.780 about writing with beckoning the muse and

01:20:13.760 whatnot but like there's an ask there's a

01:20:17.260 part of pleasure I have these really loud

01:20:19.140 keyboards that I hammer on I have a

01:20:20.800 whole broken slew of keyboards that I've

01:20:23.180 gone through I feel like a carpenter I

01:20:25.320 feel like I'm pounding and hammering and

01:20:27.200 cutting and pasting and I like the

01:20:28.880 keyboard to be really loud so that it's

01:20:30.820 a muscular action and I just feel

01:20:33.340 utterly engaged and fascinated and what

01:20:36.000 in this world that like I'm in control

01:20:38.080 but there's endless opportunities and my

01:20:40.440 job is to be open to opportunity while

01:20:42.700 also making sure that I'm kind of

01:20:44.260 steering the ship and there's an

01:20:45.940 enormous amount of responsibility and

01:20:48.080 at the same time I'm living in a world

01:20:51.560 of my own making and I'm wholly alone

01:20:53.620 okay so why so first let's hear your

01:20:57.440 keyboard

01:20:58.000 yeah you just like that 1930s newsroom

01:21:04.860 well my friends joke with me about is

01:21:07.900 that when they're on the phone and if I'm

01:21:10.180 rude enough to be writing or finishing a

01:21:12.980 sentence they always say you sound like

01:21:15.000 the asshole travel agent where they can't

01:21:17.020 move your flight we're like okay so

01:21:18.900 Dallas is shut down can I go through

01:21:20.300 Chicago no I'm terribly sorry can we

01:21:24.180 get me no I'm sorry your flight's now

01:21:26.580 been delayed six hours I mean it's the

01:21:28.120 loud old-fashioned angry travel agent

01:21:31.560 keyboard right right right it's very

01:21:33.300 funny so so you're talking yeah so you

01:21:36.720 talked about discipline and you talked

01:21:38.820 about responsibility when you're writing

01:21:41.360 like what do you mean by that exactly

01:21:43.300 well your ego is constantly

01:21:46.360 subservient to the plot so to write well

01:21:49.820 you come up with a basic set of

01:21:51.340 tenets that start your story it's like

01:21:54.040 it's it's like it's so complex it's

01:21:56.180 like it's like surfing like there's so

01:21:58.480 many factors so when people are like you

01:22:00.860 know there's there's sort of like the

01:22:02.340 idiot criticism of certain movies like

01:22:04.260 you know passenger 57 you remember

01:22:07.760 where Wesley Snipes is the super badass

01:22:09.740 spec ops guy on the airplane that gets

01:22:11.300 hijacked and some people are like what

01:22:13.100 are the odds that he'd be on the plane

01:22:14.720 that got hijacked and you're like well

01:22:16.240 it's a hundred percent because no one

01:22:18.180 wants to write a story about the other

01:22:19.600 ninety nine thousand nine hundred ninety

01:22:21.760 nine times that a plane got hijacked and

01:22:23.480 passenger 57 wasn't on it like that's

01:22:25.580 why we're writing this story so you have a

01:22:28.040 unique set of circumstances that can

01:22:29.700 involve certain that can involve

01:22:30.920 coincidence at the outset that's first

01:22:34.700 act stuff right so okay this is a story

01:22:38.240 about the one time that an orphan who was

01:22:41.300 taken out of a program at the age of 12 and

01:22:43.160 trained to be an assassin you know left

01:22:45.980 the program because his moral compass

01:22:47.300 wasn't broken and that's his story it's

01:22:49.600 like whatever you think the odds of that

01:22:51.800 are that's the narrative contract that's

01:22:54.060 what I'm doing and I can't introduce him

01:22:56.560 in the third act of a realism based

01:22:58.940 mystery that's you know a drawing room

01:23:01.500 mystery that takes place in Vermont so

01:23:02.960 we set the course of that right okay so

01:23:04.940 that's the contract with the that's the

01:23:07.000 narrative contract and the contract with

01:23:08.860 the reader you don't get to break

01:23:10.520 absolutely you say look give me leeway

01:23:12.800 while I set this up yeah here's the

01:23:15.460 coincidence yeah so the coincidence or

01:23:18.280 here's the unlikely set of circumstances

01:23:20.640 that are why I have decided to sit down at

01:23:23.740 my type typewriter sounding keyboard and

01:23:26.720 devote a year of my life to this okay so

01:23:29.120 we're all in on that then you round out

01:23:31.400 your characters and what you want is to

01:23:34.020 give them freedom but you're also steering

01:23:37.060 like I don't believe all this stuff that

01:23:38.640 like you know oh my gosh I just start to

01:23:40.680 channel everything and it's magic like

01:23:42.640 you're controlling it but when I'm

01:23:44.060 writing well I have characters who are

01:23:45.940 wittier than I am in real time not

01:23:49.240 meaning like one of the things that's

01:23:50.280 great with writing books is that you know

01:23:52.700 I can a year later go back with the

01:23:54.800 perfect comeback to you know like I have

01:23:57.500 a year to come up with and polish the

01:23:59.120 dialogue and that's right so whenever

01:24:00.680 you've been at a party and someone

01:24:02.420 slights you and you're driving home going

01:24:04.020 oh I should have said that we get to say

01:24:06.500 that when we're writing but I've had that

01:24:08.420 happen in real time so there's something

01:24:10.180 that starts to go on with characters as

01:24:11.820 you engage in them that they're doing

01:24:13.800 stuff that I feel like I'm typing just

01:24:15.880 behind it happening like it's just moving

01:24:18.420 and that's a great feeling and there's

01:24:21.600 this really weird thing that you want to

01:24:22.940 get to which is by the end of a book the

01:24:25.460 conclusion should feel at once inevitable

01:24:27.920 and unpredictable so you want to have

01:24:31.140 things happen and and we've all had that

01:24:33.980 I don't know if some people had it with

01:24:35.380 the sixth sense some people had it with

01:24:37.240 we've all had that feeling in a movie

01:24:39.660 or reading a book where you're right on

01:24:41.800 the lip of discovery and then the thing

01:24:43.600 happens and you're like oh my god that

01:24:45.140 makes so much sense and completely caught

01:24:47.720 me off guard at the same time yeah that's

01:24:49.860 the win right and so you need to sort of

01:24:52.900 you have a responsibility to always make

01:24:55.480 your needs subservient to the plot like

01:24:58.100 the story is paramount and so as much as

01:25:01.940 you're the creator you have to give

01:25:04.400 free will to the story you have to give

01:25:06.160 stuff up that you don't and wouldn't

01:25:08.420 otherwise I might have spent weeks doing

01:25:12.660 research on something if it doesn't fit

01:25:14.580 the story properly I have to you know

01:25:16.720 they call it killing your babies right

01:25:18.700 right you have to get rid of it you got

01:25:20.180 to throw it out yeah you have to another

01:25:21.720 thing that's really useful for I think

01:25:23.780 beginning writers to know that we touched

01:25:25.560 on previously which is that yeah you have

01:25:28.920 to be willing to throw things away lots

01:25:31.680 of things I mean what I do to kind of

01:25:33.260 take the sting out of that to some degree

01:25:35.460 is I I always have a document open on my

01:25:38.040 computer called culls and I'll pull out a

01:25:41.000 paragraph that doesn't fit and throw it

01:25:42.620 in there and you know there's always the

01:25:44.520 possibility that I'll find a place for it

01:25:46.280 later but often I do something with it

01:25:49.080 later too so the writing isn't necessarily

01:25:51.200 well and you know so you're trying to make

01:25:59.060 everything work and you're trying to be

01:26:00.460 surprising at the same time but also you

01:26:03.200 have to be open to opportunity and I had

01:26:05.660 my third book in particular I learned this

01:26:07.620 because I got all the way to the end and

01:26:09.300 the ending that I thought was the exact

01:26:11.120 opposite of the ending that of the story

01:26:12.900 that I had created and I realized I had a

01:26:15.500 choice I can either honor the story that

01:26:17.280 I've created and and make this thing

01:26:19.860 that's better and surprising and unplanned

01:26:21.700 for or I can write propaganda I can

01:26:24.440 convert the story to my own means and

01:26:27.220 look that's like that's Ayn Rand right

01:26:29.080 it's like there's never gonna be a

01:26:30.740 shocking reveal where they're you know

01:26:32.660 in Ayn Rand you know what it is and

01:26:34.700 she's filling it out you know what all of

01:26:37.420 her thoughts are so the writing for isn't

01:26:39.100 a process of discovery necessarily it's a

01:26:41.080 process of furthering a set of

01:26:43.120 philosophical points she thinks

01:26:44.700 she does that's that's second-rate I

01:26:47.760 think is that all her heroes and all

01:26:49.920 her villains like all her heroes are

01:26:52.140 the same hero and all her villains are

01:26:54.240 the same villain and all the villains

01:26:56.160 are completely villainous and all the

01:26:58.140 heroes are completely heroic well and

01:27:00.540 that's propaganda yes yes well it's

01:27:02.520 exactly the opposite of Dostoevsky you

01:27:04.920 know where he makes his his villains are

01:27:07.080 more heroic than his heroes by a

01:27:08.760 substantial margin you know Superman to

01:27:12.060 to to to argue against fundamentally so

01:27:15.900 right and so you know a lot is about

01:27:18.360 being open and the other thing I would

01:27:20.240 say with writers is you know I see a lot

01:27:22.680 here who are you know this is true for

01:27:24.500 you know fill in the blank for artistic

01:27:26.160 field but a lot of people who are like

01:27:28.500 you know I went to Beverly Hills High I

01:27:30.780 studied screenwriting undergrad I got a

01:27:32.820 master's in screenwriting and here I go

01:27:34.780 and I'm ready to go and I want to write

01:27:36.720 and you're like what the hell are you

01:27:37.680 going to write about you know a lot of

01:27:39.580 people I think having a broad range of

01:27:43.020 life experience is important you know

01:27:44.720 there's some of the writers who I

01:27:45.700 admire the most like James Elroy was

01:27:47.620 like borderline homeless if not homeless

01:27:49.720 for a while just knocking about and

01:27:51.580 figuring stuff out and odd jobs and like

01:27:54.160 living out in the world and so if you

01:27:57.080 want to write this or create some sort

01:28:00.020 of constructed amalgam of previous

01:28:02.260 things that have been constructed go all

01:28:05.320 the way through all the coursework and do

01:28:07.380 all that but it's huge benefit to just

01:28:10.040 pursue anything that interests you

01:28:11.560 because looking back it makes sense I

01:28:14.000 don't know why I chose Jung you know and

01:28:16.180 looking in hindsight it's like well no

01:28:17.820 shit right he didn't write about

01:28:19.620 anything but storytelling but I didn't

01:28:22.040 choose him in some way and I remember

01:28:25.060 even in college so I was English in

01:28:26.640 psychology but like I I sort of wanted to

01:28:29.740 you know I took a course in opera and I

01:28:31.660 took a course in classical music I mean

01:28:33.480 which I have zero aptitude for music but

01:28:36.720 I really was you know in art in all

01:28:39.180 these different arenas to just have at

01:28:41.580 least a basis of things to write about

01:28:44.100 and I think the same is true for life

01:28:45.720 experiences like do a lot of stuff do

01:28:48.540 stuff that's dangerous you know so let's

01:28:51.600 okay so we should fill in a backstory here

01:28:53.680 for people too because I imagine they're

01:28:55.220 somewhat curious I mean I've known you

01:28:56.820 for a long time we met when you were a

01:28:59.280 student at Harvard when I was teaching

01:29:00.800 there and you're actually the only one

01:29:03.860 of the undergraduates that I knew there

01:29:05.360 that I've kept up a relationship with

01:29:07.240 over this protracted period of time for

01:29:11.120 for a variety of reasons but it's not

01:29:13.800 like I didn't meet all sorts of

01:29:15.360 remarkable undergraduates there but do you

01:29:19.200 what do you do you have any particular

01:29:21.660 memories of that period of time when we

01:29:23.900 were interacting I can certainly tell one

01:29:26.060 story but I'll see what you come up with

01:29:27.860 first well I remember you were I remember

01:29:32.520 you were formal in a way that I respected

01:29:36.220 then because I still remember we were we

01:29:38.740 were friends or seeing each other outside

01:29:40.200 of school for like four years before I

01:29:41.840 finally was like is it okay if I call you

01:29:43.960 Jordan instead of Dr. Peterson and I think

01:29:46.420 that the the the formals may be the wrong

01:29:50.320 word you you you you you had a certain

01:29:53.000 authority that I think was key to the

01:29:56.700 teaching process and you didn't brook

01:29:58.740 fools

01:29:59.400 at all like if someone came in with it

01:30:03.860 with an argument from either end of the

01:30:05.880 spectrum from an ideological perspective

01:30:08.840 you had no interest in it and so that was

01:30:11.160 really palatable for me and then I think

01:30:13.520 what happened with with young was that I

01:30:16.660 like I just sort of fell in love with all

01:30:18.780 of that for like that just it's weird how

01:30:21.760 much our interests aligned along those

01:30:24.420 fronts because I've been very interested

01:30:26.440 obviously in storytelling and thrillers and

01:30:28.300 all this stuff but dealing with young

01:30:29.920 and dealing with the shadow

01:30:30.960 yeah we encountered some early political

01:30:35.360 correctness there together if I remember

01:30:37.320 correctly because you were in the English

01:30:38.720 department and you were studying

01:30:40.620 Shakespeare and you wanted to study

01:30:43.460 Shakespeare from a union perspective and

01:30:45.460 if I remember correctly at that time

01:30:47.000 Shakespeare wasn't exactly popular in the

01:30:48.920 English department and and you was well

01:30:52.260 a Nazi yeah exactly the very opposite of

01:30:56.140 popular so that was also very interesting

01:30:59.000 yeah but I was hitting a lot of that

01:31:03.000 though I think it wasn't it didn't feel

01:31:05.180 like it was the pitch that it was now but

01:31:07.200 it was at a sort of 90s pitch where and it

01:31:10.100 also felt kind of more interesting where like

01:31:12.300 it felt more conversational in a weird way

01:31:15.060 like where people like I had my favorite

01:31:17.160 feminist like I was like I really like

01:31:18.940 Naomi Wolf like some of what she says

01:31:20.520 really makes sense to me like there was

01:31:22.100 conversations about stuff in a way that

01:31:24.180 felt different and there's there's sort of

01:31:27.040 this rigidity now with people snapping to

01:31:29.980 both sides of the equation but I mean I

01:31:32.700 think one of the things that I you know in

01:31:35.720 our courses that I liked a lot was that if

01:31:37.840 somebody raised something that was clearly

01:31:39.740 just some ideologically based here's what

01:31:43.280 I'm supposed to be saying and reiterating

01:31:44.900 you wouldn't have any tolerance for us and

01:31:47.360 I always respected that because it was

01:31:49.200 like and it also wasn't from a perspective

01:31:51.220 of being shut down to it it was like I'll

01:31:52.940 have any conversation that you want to

01:31:54.520 have on the merits but I'm not going to

01:31:56.740 engage in a conversation with a false bit

01:31:59.120 of scaffolding that you're inhabiting it was

01:32:01.340 sort of the vibe so that was interesting

01:32:04.900 so I remember the thing I remember one of

01:32:08.600 the things I remember was if and I'm sure

01:32:10.780 you remember this too is that in one of

01:32:12.840 my personality classes I had asked questions

01:32:16.140 for a scale called the sensation seeking

01:32:18.580 scale which was one of the early versions

01:32:20.540 of a big five variant and the sensation

01:32:24.380 seeking scale asks people in part about

01:32:27.140 minor juvenile rule breaking I think like

01:32:30.140 shoplifting might have been one of them

01:32:31.680 anyways and so I asked everyone questions

01:32:34.380 and I had them score it and then I asked

01:32:36.500 people to put up their hands at each level

01:32:40.680 of increase in scores like are you in the

01:32:43.840 bottom tenth percentile percentile the next

01:32:45.960 tenth percentile or whatever and if I

01:32:48.280 remember correctly you were the only

01:32:49.920 person who put up their his hand in the

01:32:53.000 highest of the categories and if I also

01:32:55.700 remember correctly I laughed about that

01:32:57.840 quite a bit and then if I also remember

01:33:00.840 correctly you got a date out of that yeah

01:33:04.380 somebody asked me out yeah but look it was

01:33:07.020 either it was either like the top percentile

01:33:09.620 in sensation seeking or werewolf surgeon

01:33:11.780 it was going to be one of those two so I

01:33:13.800 pretty much I pretty much hit it yeah yeah

01:33:15.820 but look we should also keep in mind that

01:33:17.580 this was at Harvard so like the scales for

01:33:19.660 like crazy sensation seeking daredevils you

01:33:23.300 know was not dampened out one of the things

01:33:25.460 I was really surprised about when I when I

01:33:27.720 administered that scale to the whole class

01:33:29.740 was just how low the overall scores were yeah

01:33:32.360 and we know that conscientiousness is a really

01:33:34.980 good predictor of of academic performance

01:33:37.420 and so I would say that you know the kids

01:33:40.760 there tended towards hyper conscientiousness

01:33:43.240 more than towards say entrepreneurial the

01:33:45.940 entrepreneurial sort of artistic it's like

01:33:48.640 if you want the win like we're talking about

01:33:50.460 this from the big five it's like obviously

01:33:52.780 conscientiousness better predictor in some

01:33:55.580 ways than IQ right on a straight scale but

01:33:58.920 it's like if you can have the talent and

01:34:02.820 conscientiousness that's where you see people

01:34:05.380 killing it yeah people in like three or

01:34:07.260 four shows I mean like that's just the win

01:34:09.160 and so you know yeah one year it's rare to

01:34:12.380 have that entrepreneurial artistic creative

01:34:14.780 ability and also to ally that with say

01:34:17.020 industriousness which is part of

01:34:18.920 conscientiousness and it's rough too because

01:34:21.080 the orderliness part of conscientiousness

01:34:23.100 seems to constrain creativity so there's a

01:34:25.920 real I mean one of the things we found for

01:34:28.060 example is that on the political continuum

01:34:31.200 imagine that that runs from from left liberal to

01:34:35.160 right conservative something like that the

01:34:36.940 fundamental one the conservatives are high in

01:34:39.840 conscientiousness and low in creativity but

01:34:42.700 mostly what they're high in is orderliness

01:34:44.780 where liberals are high in openness and low in

01:34:47.880 orderliness one of the things that comes out of

01:34:50.920 that that's really interesting is that that I've

01:34:53.360 been thinking a lot about lately is I've been

01:34:55.560 trying to figure out why conscientiousness and

01:34:58.860 openness aren't correlated so there's no

01:35:00.560 real reason for them to link together to

01:35:03.540 predict political temperament but one of

01:35:05.940 the things that struck me really hard and I

01:35:08.100 think Trump's discussion of the wall between

01:35:10.380 the US and Mexico really got this active in

01:35:12.780 my mind was that as well as all this stuff

01:35:14.940 I've been involved in recently with regards

01:35:16.920 to what you can say and what you can't say and

01:35:19.520 and and that kind of political correctness is

01:35:22.520 that I think the fundamental political

01:35:25.860 question boils down to whether borders should

01:35:28.820 be open or closed and high orderly low creative

01:35:32.700 people like everything to be in boxes and they

01:35:34.900 don't get much of a kick out of the potential

01:35:37.400 creative interplay that can come from loosening

01:35:40.780 the borders between things but they're also

01:35:43.380 willing to subject themselves to the discipline of

01:35:46.580 order so that's one of the things that gives them an

01:35:49.180 advantage but on the other side of the spectrum with the

01:35:51.520 and they're unwilling to recognize tunnels that

01:35:54.180 run beneath well yeah there is they wouldn't

01:35:57.660 think that up it's like oh look there's a wall I

01:36:00.320 better turn around and go home so yeah uh well we

01:36:03.060 could put a ladder over it how would that work or

01:36:05.260 yes yes that that's that's definitely but the

01:36:08.600 underground is of less interest too yes in

01:36:11.280 general yes yes exactly well and so the liberal

01:36:13.980 types they like they like to uh take advantage of

01:36:18.820 the possibilities that are set forth by breaking the

01:36:22.960 borders between things but they're also unwilling to

01:36:25.560 accept the discipline that working within an orderly

01:36:27.860 structure will will provide anyways I think the border

01:36:32.160 issue is pervasive at every level of analysis so the

01:36:36.280 conservative types like the borders around everything to

01:36:38.880 remain tight sexuality identity nationality that the state

01:36:44.420 itself whereas the more except what's weird is except I mean

01:36:48.820 conventionally right now with trump it's not the case but

01:36:52.380 conventionally conservatives are free trade even though

01:36:54.900 clinton co-opted it so it's interesting because like when it

01:36:57.620 comes to money it's it's sort of like only rules around

01:37:02.020 maximizing money yeah just free trade go ahead I know that it's a

01:37:06.220 funny one I mean you never get a pure manifestation of these

01:37:09.160 things I mean conservatives can be protectionist too at times

01:37:12.080 right you know so I guess the the political expression depends to

01:37:17.200 some degree on what's happening in the environment at that

01:37:19.940 particular point so but surf surfing all these walls is like I

01:37:24.300 mean that's the trick right it's so much easier to armor yourself in

01:37:28.360 one pure ideology you know one of the things I think about a lot is

01:37:32.140 like with the skill so I've just gotten back from a two-week tour a two-week

01:37:36.220 leg of the tour I'm in a different city every day and it's like it's

01:37:38.840 reviews and it's readers and it's all this stuff and I've been thinking a

01:37:43.800 lot about how much work it takes to not to stay open creatively but stay

01:37:49.480 focused enough I'm pretty high in orderliness that's something that can

01:37:54.520 interfere but it's weird because I mean one of the things I think about is

01:37:57.400 like to be a writer you sort of need the sensitivity of a butterfly with the

01:38:02.020 height of a rhinoceros like you need to be so sensitive and attuned to

01:38:07.720 things and also so willing to accept you know rejection or negative reviews or

01:38:13.600 all kinds of weird feedback and everything else and I'm saying this from

01:38:16.540 someone who's been fortunate enough to be largely successful but it's still

01:38:20.320 there there's a there's a battering that you take when you try and advance

01:38:24.460 something outside the normal stricture careful you're starting to sound like

01:38:27.900 Madonna oh I actually watched that that speech she made the other day and I think

01:38:36.460 she's depressed actually what was the speech what did I say that sounded like

01:38:40.460 Madonna woman of the year award or something like that I happened to watch a

01:38:44.100 version of it where she was intercut with Milo Yiannopoulos which was

01:38:47.980 actually quite comical but she spent a lot of time complaining about how hard it

01:38:53.500 was to be Madonna and to be a woman and and I was watching it very carefully

01:38:58.060 because she she didn't say one positive thing about her life and I thought and

01:39:02.560 she seemed to be close to tears most of the time and I thought there's something

01:39:06.340 wrong she looked she looked to me like she was actually depressed because it was

01:39:10.200 you know I mean she's had a pretty successful go of it and to only focus on the

01:39:14.940 negative is is is is kind of rough so but neither of those things are bad that I'm that I'm

01:39:22.500 pointing to meaning like you want to be as sensitive as possible so that you're

01:39:27.100 attuned to constant sort of vibration I just can't get this whole butterfly

01:39:31.200 rhinoceros image image image it's like yeah it's it's I can see I will redact it

01:39:37.400 will redact it what I mean is there's a there's a trick to trying to be flow to

01:39:42.540 maintain all your openness and also be tough as hell right like that's that's sort of

01:39:48.280 one of the ways to do it because you need to blaze forward with it with it like a butterfly

01:39:54.320 rhinoceros blazing forward exactly exactly you know as as the common refrain yeah you know look

01:40:01.040 it's a Socrates set yeah um float like a butterfly uh sting like a rhinoceros

01:40:08.160 all right but I mean you think but when you're breaking away from those strict those structures

01:40:15.440 when you're in a space that's entrepreneurial that's the challenge I mean look that's part

01:40:19.660 of the challenge that we're seeing people not resisting with groupthink like there's such

01:40:24.860 a need to apparel and armor yourself in in set ideologies you know and and to to have

01:40:34.760 things be a certain way to just go all the way off on orderliness but to try and maintain

01:40:38.560 high discipline high orderliness and high openness there's a constant tension that's moving yeah yeah

01:40:45.400 well I think that's that's partly why high level creative performance is so rare is because it's

01:40:50.760 very difficult to bring those things together because they they actually they're mutually constraining

01:40:55.080 well the thing that's interesting for me is I've worked with a lot of celebrities who are

01:40:59.900 at a fairly high level well at the highest level let's just say whether it's in you know acting or

01:41:06.660 singing or you know household name people who you know some of whom carry with it the the press

01:41:12.960 reputation of being smart and some who do not the one thing that always amazes me is like anyone at a

01:41:19.460 certain level of fame has a level of unbelievable um sharpness like there's no one who accidentally

01:41:29.880 stumbles their way all the way up to having a top 10 hit or a number one movie or something else

01:41:35.200 it's very very rare yeah and so even people that we look at and go oh that's some stupid celebrity

01:41:40.480 that's a dumb actor that's this idiot singer people are running empires yeah you know and they somehow

01:41:45.760 have to do that while keeping their antenna up and focused and and letting enough in to keep creating

01:41:53.420 in a way that's meaningful um it's it's I've yet to meet someone there's a lot of people who are

01:41:58.980 a pain in the ass but I've yet to meet people at that level I'm not impressed yeah well one of the

01:42:03.300 things I've learned in recent years is to go watch famous people when they come to Toronto no matter

01:42:09.480 whether or not I like them so for example I went and saw Dolly Parton with my wife about six months ago

01:42:16.800 outside at the Molson amphitheater and like I wouldn't say I'm a great fan of Dolly Parton's

01:42:22.840 music I mean she's quite the phenomena but but she was absolutely amazing absolutely amazing brilliant

01:42:29.280 witty self-denigrating uh incredibly musically talented uh really engaging with the audience

01:42:37.020 she really seemed to like to be there it was a real treat and and I agree with what you said is

01:42:42.220 that it's a rare person who especially who manages to sustain that across any amount of time

01:42:47.040 who doesn't have something truly remarkable about them yeah I mean I just I'd also like to point out

01:42:53.440 my magnanimity of not taking the open revenge shot for your Madonna comment about you going to a Dolly

01:42:58.840 Parton concert yeah I just want that I just want that noted let the record show that I'm showing

01:43:04.340 enormous restraint at this point I definitely and you have throughout the entire the entire discussion

01:43:09.520 I'm very I'm very happy about that but but hey that's true I mean it's coming out too right

01:43:14.640 yeah I mean we'll be coming out in June you want to talk a little bit about that

01:43:18.480 sure it's called the book of Henry um and it stars Naomi Watts we have Jacob Tremblay in it who's the

01:43:26.080 boy from Room Sarah Silverman who we mentioned earlier Dean Norris a terrific cast um Maddie Ziegler

01:43:32.180 uh who is amazing Jaden Liebner is the boy from St. Vincent and Midnight Special

01:43:36.920 and it's about I'm constrained because we have a very kind of under wraps we want it to be a

01:43:43.400 surprise it's a very unusual very special kind of film I wrote the rough draft of this the first draft

01:43:50.460 18 years ago I this script has literally grown up with me um and I it's it's about a single mom Naomi

01:43:58.960 Watts plays the character who is raising two boys one of whom's a prodigy and something very bad is

01:44:05.220 happening next door to them and working with her son who's a prodigy she has to figure out she's a

01:44:11.820 lot like the child in the relationship and the 12 year old is more like the adult and they have to

01:44:16.720 sort of navigate through their way to a solution it has very strong thriller elements it has some humor

01:44:22.760 I mean one of the things I said um I was thinking about is that I hope there's a lot of emotions in

01:44:29.000 that will catch people off guard um and how it got made why it took so long to get made is it was so

01:44:34.080 unusual how it got made was I found a director um off a movie called Safety Not Guaranteed that's a

01:44:41.100 wonderful little small independent movie um called Colin Trevorrow and we were moving forward toward

01:44:47.720 production and then he said look I just had a meeting with Spielberg there's no conceivable way

01:44:52.820 he would give me Jurassic World off my tiny little movie that costs probably less than the catering

01:44:59.020 budget for Jurassic World but I just want to give you a heads up and two weeks later he called and was

01:45:03.340 like dude I got Jurassic World and so I lost him and he said to me you never know maybe that movie will

01:45:10.020 you know make all this money we can just come back and get the screen lit um and so he went off and

01:45:15.780 made it you know it made I think 1.7 billion dollars for Universal and true to his word and I have enormous

01:45:22.680 regard for Colin for a variety of reasons but but this being one of them you know he came back and

01:45:28.900 called me and said well now I'm doing one of the next Star Wars movies and I have a window and let's

01:45:34.140 shoot this thing and go and so we had this small window I did I did the rewrite in like four or five

01:45:39.540 days the production rewrite and we just he cast it like that I mean at that point he was someone who

01:45:45.060 everyone wanted to work with and off we went and it was amazing it was like you know 18 years later

01:45:50.200 an overnight success cool so yeah I was we that was good great we should probably call it quits I

01:45:58.320 think it's been about 90 minutes which seems to be about the right amount of time so thanks very

01:46:03.180 much for talking with me and uh well we'll talk soon thank you for listening to episode 7 of the

01:46:10.160 Jordan B. Peterson podcast for relevant links in the description of the episode please check the

01:46:16.220 show notes to support this podcast you can provide a monthly donation on Dr. Peterson's Patreon account

01:46:23.580 the link to which can be found in the description also please check out self-authoring.com for Dr.

01:46:30.900 Peterson's self-development programs thanks we interrupt your playlist to bring you breaking news

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01:46:48.860 it's time for dance

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast - February 02, 2017

Gregg Hurwitz

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